Home > Get Involved, Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases > Time to Speak Out in Support of Strong School Vaccine Policies

Time to Speak Out in Support of Strong School Vaccine Policies

jyTzFXoGLast week California legislators were asked to cast a very important vote on a very critical matter – school vaccine exemptions.

California Senate Bill 277 would remove the Personal Belief Exemption (PBE) option from the school and child care enrollment requirements and require schools to publicly provide information about their immunization rates.  Last week the first hearing of the bill passed the Senate Health Committee in a 6-2 vote.  The bill now faces an Education Committee hearing on April 15th at 9am before potentially moving to a Senate floor vote.

But what happens to this bill doesn’t just pertain to parents in California. What happens in California is important to every parent across the country and here’s why…

Unlike Vegas, what happens in California doesn’t stay in California.  

Consider the ongoing measles outbreak that is linked to the Disneyland Resort.  What began as a single case of measles in a popular tourist location in Anaheim, California quickly spread to 7 states and into both Canada and Mexico.  While it’s fascinating to see the dynamics of how diseases spread, this situation illustrates how an outbreak of an infectious disease in one location can quickly spread across the country in a matter of weeks.

As the number of measles cases climbed, healthcare providers and public health professionals grew increasingly concerned.  And parents with infants too young to be immunized, and parents of children who are immunocompromised – like Jennifer Hibben-White and Dr. Tim Jacks – grew increasingly angry.  The result has been a surge in state bills aimed at tightening school vaccine exemption policies.

School vaccine policies are governed by the states. 

What parents may not realize, is that each state governs their own school vaccine requirements.  In fact, Every Child By Two was founded in 1991 by Former First Lady Rosalynn Carter and Former Fist Lady of Arkansas Betty Bumpers as a response to a U.S. measles epidemic which sickened more than 55,000 individuals, hospitalized over 11,000 and killed more than 120 people, including young children.  In response to this outbreak, the two co-founders traveled the entire nation to alert people about immunization concerns.  As a result, they’ve been credited with the passage of laws mandating school-age vaccination requirements in every state and the establishment of immunization coalitions that continue to operate in most states.

While every state allows for valid medical exemptions to vaccinations, states differ as to whether they will allow personal belief or religious exemptions (though very few religions actually oppose vaccines).ExImmunMap15

Additionally, the procedures by which a parent can obtain an exemption for their child also vary by state.  In most states, it can be as easy as a parent signing a piece of paper.  In fact, filing an exemption is often much easier than fulfilling the requirement of getting vaccinated.  Therefore, it’s presumed that exemptions rates may be on the rise partly because parents are becoming increasingly aware of just how easy they are to get.

Ultimately, the states are accountable for the number of school vaccination exemptions.  However, it’s the persistent efforts of vaccine critics that continually encourage parents to refuse vaccines that may be responsible.  In fact, there are various websites and forums that are known to assist parents in navigating exemption requirements.

So now, concerned about outbreaks of diseases like measles and whooping cough, and amidst evidence that the current  measles outbreak has been driven by those who refuse vaccines, state legislators are looking to address the matter through the introduction of new immunization related bills.  There are eight states (CA, MD, OK, VT, WA, NC, ME and RI) with bills that are trying to remove personal belief or religious exemptions.  There are four states (CT, NJ, NM and TX) looking to tighten the rules that apply to religious exemptions.  There are six states (CO, TX, IL, MN, PA, and OR)  trying to add some kind of educational component to current exemption policies.  There are plenty of other immunization related bills – estimated to be as many as 110 – under consideration so far this year.  

The choice to forego vaccination is directly linked to the risk of disease.  

Various studies have shown that personal belief exemptions for vaccination put people at increased risk of disease.  In the case of the recent measles outbreak that originated in Disney, epidemiologists were able to retrace the geographic spread of the cases by using modeling based on infection rates.  They calculated that the vaccination rates in the populations of those exposed during the outbreak ranged from a high of 86% to a low of 50%.  This is significantly less than the 96-99% vaccination rates that scientists agree is necessary to achieve “herd immunity” and prevent measles from becoming endemic again.  They published their findings in JAMA Pediatrics along with a statement that read,

“the outbreak shines a glaring spotlight on our nation’s growing antivaccination movement and the prevalence of vaccination-hesitant parents”

In reporting on the study, a National Geographic article explained,

“clusters of like-minded people disinclined to vaccinate their kids are scattered throughout every state that allows vaccine exemptions—whether in the megalopolises of California or in the rural outreaches of North Dakota. These clusters cross all dividing lines: socioeconomic classes, education levels, and political and religious views. A single common thread unites them: reluctance to vaccinate.”

Tightening laws that govern school vaccine exemption policies has proven to be effective.  

California is not the first state to try to tighten school vaccine exemption policies, and this is not California’s first legislative rodeo (as we’ve seen with AB 2109).  States with historically high exemption rates, such as Washington, Oregon and Colorado, have all addressed these issues before.  From these collective experiences in various states we have begun to see small successes. For example, after enacting legislation that required Washington parents to get information from a healthcare provider about the benefits and risk of vaccines before being granted an exemption, the Kindergarten exemption rate dropped from 6% in 2010-2011, to 4.5% in 2011-2012.  And the data reports are similar in other states as well.

Many of the bills currently under consideration would similarly require parents to visit with a healthcare provider before getting a personal belief exemption.  Some bills are trying to remove all personal belief exemptions, while others are trying to require documentation to support religious exemptions. There are also bills that would give parents public access to school immunization and exemption rates.

While it’s common to hear the opposition cry that these bills are infringing on parental rights, the truth is that these policies are about preserving public health and honoring the rights of all children to attend school in an environment that is free from preventable diseases. 

But make no mistake about it.  Just as there are parents, public health and medical professionals who support these various bills, there are others who have managed to convince their legislators to propose bills that are counterproductive to strong immunization policies.  In the state of Maine, for example, an expected bill would require providers to read a list of vaccine ingredients to patients before vaccination, and another bill is looking to establish a Maine Vaccine Consumer Protection Act that would set strict parameters governing vaccine injury inquiries, duplicating much of what is already handled by federal vaccine policies.

What we can learn from the battles that have gone before and the fight in California today. 

What makes California so important this go around is not just that it is where the recent measles outbreak initiated.  It’s not the high rate of exemptions and the clusters of non-vaccinated children in certain schools either.  Although both of those factors brought us to where we are today.  However, the big impact this time is seen in the parents who are stepping up and speaking out in a big and influential way.

While these bills are commonly supported by healthcare professionals, and organizations such as the AAP, the AMA, and many others, we must never underestimate the value of the constituent’s voice.  Emotional stories of alleged vaccine injury and supposed “forced” vaccination are compelling to legislators who are not always well-versed in the overwhelming data that supports vaccine safety and efficacy.

Unfortunately, bills introduced in Washington, Oregon and North Carolina just this year were withdrawn before a vote due to an outcry from a small minority of well-organized and vocal constituents.  But what we’re witnessed in California is that a growing number of parents who support vaccines and disease-free education are beginning to organize.  Bills like SB277 are getting a swell of public support in part because the majority of parents are tired of having herd immunity threatened by the motivated minority of parents who are obstructing bills they believe “force” vaccination and injure children.  Websites are springing up that counter the efforts of anti-vaccine advocates and instead help organize vaccine supporters.

And the timing couldn’t be better because we need parents who support vaccines to stand up and demand that their children’s classmates contribute to the public health, not risk it.

These policies are about preserving public health and the rights of all children to attend school in an environment that is free from preventable diseases. 

While legislation can help reduce the number of children attending schools and daycares who don’t have all the school required immunizations, these laws are not attempting to completely eliminate exemptions.  There are going to be valid medical reasons when a child should not be vaccinated.  However, the argument exists that if a parent refuses to contribute to the best interests of public health, than shouldn’t they  also give up their choice to participate in state and government-funded services like public school?

Mind you, no one is suggesting children be forced to vaccinate.  And no state is considering removing valid medical exemptions.  However, we live in a society that must begin to acknowledge that the decision to vaccinate extends beyond just the individual child.  Vaccinations may be considered a personal decision by some, but they clearly has public repercussions.  And while we may not be able to show how many cases of disease have been prevented, time and again we’ve seen the U.S. legal system rule that parents are not free to put the lives of their children and others in danger due to their own beliefs.

There are plenty of instances when the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that

 “parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children.”

The Court also stated that the

“right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill-health or death.”

Now is the time for parents to speak up on this issue.  

In recent history, we’ve seen that in 2011-2013 there were more attempts by state legislatures to broaden exemptions than to tighten them, yet only bills tightening exemptions passed.  Today, we are at a critical point in which we’re seeing an encouraging number of bills that will work to tighten exemption policies.  But it will be up to the public to ensure they pass.

We urge you to join forces with other pro-vaccine advocates in your state, connect with the Immunization Coalition in your area and find out what you can do to support all the new legislation that is being considered this year.

For help getting connected to immunization advocates in your state, please email us at shotofprevention@gmail.com and sign up to receive email updates of state and federal immunization policies on the Get Involved tab on the Vaccinate Your Baby website.

You may also want to visit these sites for more state-specific information:  

 Immunization Action Coalition:

Vaccine Facts and Policy:

National Conference of State Legislatures:

Vax Advocacy:

  • A new and growing website that parent-volunteers are building to help those who wish to speak up for sensible science-based public health policy (http://vaxadvocacy.org).

Additional reading addressing the legal mechanisms that are available to protect children against the risk of non-vaccination can be found in “The Rights of the Unvaccinated Child” blog series by Dorit Reiss, Professor of Law at the University of California Hastings College of Law in San Francisco, CA. 

Part 1: Setting the Legal Framework (click here to read)

Part 2: Tort Liability: Can an Injured Child Sue a Parent Based on Their Choice Not to Vaccinate? (click here to read)

Part 3: Can Parents Be Criminally Liable in Cases of Injury to an Unvaccinated Child? (click here to read)

Part 4: Under What Circumstances Is It Appropriate to Require Parents To Vaccinate? (click here to read)

Part 5: The Role of School Immunization Requirements in Protecting the Unvaccinated Child (click here to read)

  1. reissd
    April 14, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    Thank you.

    Like

  2. mary
    April 14, 2015 at 3:50 pm

    all human beings should be required to be vaccinated

    Like

  3. reissd
    April 14, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    @mary: I’m afraid I have to disagree – at the very least, there are those with contraindications, who should not be vaccinated and depend on the rest of us to do so.

    Like

  4. Lawrence
    April 14, 2015 at 4:12 pm

    @Mary – I would disagree as well. If someone cannot be vaccinated due to legitimate medical reasons, they should not be.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Ed Kasmer
    April 14, 2015 at 4:48 pm

    “Senate Health Committee Testimony April 8th, 2015
    Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych PhD in Immunology from Stanford University
    In my childhood I contracted measles despite being fully vaccinated with 2 vaccine doses. My personal experience prompted me to examine peer reviewed research on measles and other vaccines in much greater detail than what is generally being taught in medical schools and PhD programs. Based on my in depth analysis of vaccines and the protection they afford I am here to testify that families who utilize personal belief exemptions do not pose a significant threat to the public and that personal belief exemptions must be preserved. First, assuming that the Disneyland measles outbreak provoked the introduction of SB 277, the question is: would it have been prevented with SB 277 in place?
    According to the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report issued by the CDC at the peak of the outbreak, only 18 out of the 131 measles cases in California were in school age children with personal belief exemptions. The vast majority of measles cases in the outbreak were unrelated to personal belief exemptions.
    Please let me now explain the measles paradox as noted in epidemiological studies. I quote from the Pollen and Jacobsen 1994 archives in journal medicine. The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons. Further research determined that behind the measles paradox is a fraction of the population called low vaccine responders. Low responders are those who respond poorly to the first dose of the measles vaccine. These individuals then mount a fake immune response to subsequent revaccination and quickly return to the pool of susceptible people within 2 to 5 years despite being fully vaccinated. Re-vaccination cannot correct low responsiveness, it appears to be an immunogenetic trait. Furthermore the low responders currently outnumbers those with personal belief exemptions in California. The rate of personal belief exemptions is currently 2.54%. In California the proportion of low responders was estimated to be 4.7% based on the antibody titer analysis following the second MMR shot.
    It has been documented that vaccinated persons who develop breakthrough illness are contagious. In fact, 2 major measles outbreaks in 2011 in Quebec, Canada and in New York, New York were imported by previously vaccinated individuals. Based on these findings it is apparent that SB 277 cannot prevent future outbreaks, this is because low vaccine responsiveness together with documented contagiousness during a breakthrough illness in the vaccinated results in the measles paradox which cannot be eliminated by vaccine compliance.
    Second, a big concern during the outbreak of a communicable disease is how to protect the immunocompromised. Public spaces can never be rendered infection free even when vaccination compliance is high, approaching 99%. For this reason the protection of the immunocompromised is achieved by administering measles immunoglobulin or human normal immunoglobulin upon probable exposure. This process is called passive immunization. SB 277 is not needed for the sake of the immunocompromised because of the availability of the immunoglobulin.
    Third, the tetanus texoid and hepatitis B vaccines are intended for diseases that are not transmissible in school settings. Neither IPV, the polio vaccine, nor acellular pertussis, the whooping cough vaccine, nor the texoid vaccines are capable of preventing transmission of the infection. They intended to prevent disease symptoms only. Attempting to eliminate personal belief exemptions to these state mandated vaccines under the pretext of pursuing public safety has no scientific validity.
    Please note that SB 277 would not simply bar students from public and private schools it would also apply to homeschooled children due to California’s designation of homeschools as private schools. Since children in California are required by law to receive an education the bill would in fact force any family who opposes vaccinations to submit their children to state mandated vaccines against their will. A forced medical procedure is a violation of human rights. About 100 years ago, in 1909 California passed virtually without opposition a forced sterilization law deemed at that time to be for the public good and science based. This is not the history we are proud of. This is not the history we want to repeat today. Mass media breeds intolerance for a small minority of families who choose to care for the health of their children differently from the mainstream. Such intolerance is irrational. Non-vaccinating families do not pose a unique or in most cases any threat to the public to warrant any discrimination against them. My conclusion is that SB 277 is not needed and personal belief exemptions must be preserved.”

    Like

  6. reissd
    April 14, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    It’s unfortunate that Dr. Obukhanych is so willing to depart from her training and background and used her credentials lend credence to incorrect information. Just to mention a few points –

    A. Most of the cases in the Disneyland outbreaks were unvaccinated or with vaccination status unknown. People over 20 can also be unvaccinated. SB277 will help reduce that going forward.

    B. Measles is mostly a disease of the unvaccinated consistently in recent outbreaks – in the U.S. and Europe.

    C. The fact that exposure can occur in other places is not a reason not to make the schools safer. And since measles’ characteristic symptoms are not present in the first few days, how will symptoms be known?

    D. The overall rate in CA is low, but some areas – and some schools – have very high exemption rates.

    E. The bill has been amended to exempt homeschoolers.

    Like

  7. Chris
    April 14, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    Mr. Kasner: “Third, the tetanus texoid and hepatitis B vaccines are intended for diseases that are not transmissible in school settings. Neither IPV, the polio vaccine, nor acellular pertussis, the whooping cough vaccine, nor the texoid vaccines are capable of preventing transmission of the infection.”

    First tetanus is in the environment. Schools are not exempt from having tetanus in their soil. I can’t imagine why anyone would think school playgrounds and elsewhere would be sterile environments.

    Second, hepatitis B can very well be transmitted in a school, especially in the younger ages. It can be in the bodily fluids from one child and transferred to another. I don’t know any school that has never ever had a child fall and scraped their knee, cut themselves with scissors, nor got jabbed by a pencil…. then bled on something. There is some PubMed literature that indicates children can pass HBV through tears (PMID 20335824) and saliva (PMID 20335824).

    It is obvious that Dr. Obukhanych does not understand diseases, children and epidemiology if she makes those very basic mistakes. It is interesting that she is charging ten dollars for her fifty three page Kindle book. Please do read this review of that pamphlet.

    Like

  8. April 14, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    Reblogged this on I Am Not Sick Boy and commented:
    Another article about vaccines and why we should have tough standards where they are considered.

    Like

  9. rockie
    April 15, 2015 at 3:12 am

    Pharmed and dangerous…

    Eric Campbell of Massachusetts General Hospital has been hot on the trail of drug companies for more than a decade. In 2004, Campbell and his colleagues surveyed 125 medical schools and 15 of the largest independent teaching hospitals in the U.S. and discovered “that 60 percent of department chairs had some form of personal relationship with the drug industry. Two-thirds of the departmental units were firmly obligated to the industry by way of research equipment, unrestricted funds, residency or fellowship training support, continuing medical education support and funding from intellectual property licensing.” (Newsweek, May 30, 3014)

    The Journal of American Medical Association (March 2014) reported that nearly 40 percent of the 50 largest pharmaceutical companies had leaders from academic medical centers serving on their boards with an average annual compensation of a quarter of a million dollars. These leaders hold considerable influence over research, clinical and educational mission and it is a serious breach of interest when they also serve in an advisory capacity for pharmaceutical companies.

    Drug companies spend tens of billion dollars annually wooing doctors with meals and gifts. In 2014, it was a staggering $24 billion. (Visit https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov if you wish to know how much your own doctor is compensated for by drug and other companies.)

    Your congressman also has corporate sponsors some of which may include drug companies. (Visit https://legiscan.com to learn more about what financials ties your senator may have.)

    Aside from direct payola, drug companies also have deep tentacles into the FDA and the CDC. Harvard scientists in a study published by the Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics (Light, Lexchin and Darrow) warned “that meeting the needs of the drug companies has taken priority over meeting the needs of the patients, adding that unless this corruption of regulatory intent is reversed, the situation will continue to deteriorate.”

    Every single one of the major drug companies has gotten into trouble for breaking laws and bribing doctors. Fines reaching into the billions of dollars do not hurt the bottom line of these companies. Some of them are repeat offenders.

    (Despite the obscene profits they make, drug companies ride risk-free when it comes to vaccines. But just in case you were wondering, $3.1 billion was paid out in the last 26 years for vaccine damages to a select few who made it through the system. These funds result from an excise tax on each vaccine.)

    The peddling of billions of dollars to your doctors, senators and the deep ties with institutions, the FDA and the CDC forms the backdrop for the vaccine war that has pitted parents against parents.

    We are being told by the media, CDC and our doctors that the less than 10% of the population that is unvaccinated* is causing a resurgence in measles and other childhood illnesses. Why then are we seeing outbreaks in the U.S. and in other countries in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations? What will happen when there is 100% compliance and we still see outbreaks? Who will they blame then? The ones who only have 70 vaccinations rather than 100? How many toxins can you inject directly into the bloodstream before create more illness than was set-up to be prevented in the first place?

    Something isn’t adding up here except for the bottom line and back-pockets of doctors, government officials and drug companies.

    Like

  10. Gray Falcon
    April 15, 2015 at 10:26 am

    rockie: It’s more expensive to care for the sick than prevent disease. How do we know that the pharma companies aren’t behind the anti-vaccine movement?

    Like

  11. Allen
    April 17, 2015 at 12:25 am

    Wait till we see how expensive it’s going to be to care for the armies of autistic adults for the rest of their lives! It would have been MUCH less expensive to have prevented all this vaccine damage at the outset rather than let the pharma companies have their way with our children.

    Like

  12. Lawrence
    April 17, 2015 at 5:41 am

    @Allen – perhaps you should get out more. Vaccines do not cause autism & rates of autism in children aren’t much different than in adult populations…..do you even do Science?

    Like

  13. Gray Falcon
    April 17, 2015 at 8:16 am

    Also, Allen, I know several autistic adults, and they are fully capable of caring for themselves. Your hatefulness does you no favors.

    Like

  14. jgc56
    April 17, 2015 at 11:31 am

    “Wait till we see how expensive it’s going to be to care for the armies of autistic adults for the rest of their lives!”

    Unless you have evidence which demonstrates the existence of a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders, allen, the only rational response to your post has to be “Do you have a point?”

    So–got any?

    Like

  15. jgc56
    April 17, 2015 at 11:32 am

    BTW, I’ve call dibs on “Autistic Army” for a band name

    Like

  16. jgc56
    April 17, 2015 at 11:54 am

    “Why then are we seeing outbreaks in the U.S. and in other countries in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations?”

    But we don’t, do we?

    We instead see the outbreaks occurring in the US in isolated, regional communities where vaccine compliance has fallen below the threshold sufficient to maintain herd immunity. For an example of the former consider the measles outbreak in Ohio’s Amish community in 2014, for an example of the later consider the mealsles outbreak among members of the Eastern Mountain International Church in Texas in 2013.

    Like

  17. Lawrence
    April 17, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Exactly – we don’t see outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations, we see outbreaks start in under-vaccinated sub-populations.

    Like

  18. Ed Kasmer
    April 17, 2015 at 6:23 pm

    “But we don’t, do we?
    We instead see the outbreaks occurring in the US in isolated, regional communities where vaccine compliance has fallen below the threshold sufficient to maintain herd immunity.”

    Then explain how every kid in Utah last month was fully vaccinated?

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=33976026

    Like

  19. Ed Kasmer
    April 17, 2015 at 6:26 pm

    “Also, Allen, I know several autistic adults, and they are fully capable of caring for themselves. Your hatefulness does you no favors.”

    Goof for them! But that doesn’t mean they all can and most cannot. That’s why they always have stories on the ones that can. I know two severely autistic boys that will NOT be caring fro themselves.

    Like

  20. Lawrence
    April 17, 2015 at 10:02 pm

    @Ed – that is untrue & not only that, but the last time I checked, pertussis wasn’t measles….and you haven’t even dealt with the mentally-ill, have you?

    Like

  21. rockie
    April 19, 2015 at 10:43 am

    @ gray – if you are correct, then pharma has you on both ends. First they cause you harm and then they make money off of you after they do their damage. No thank you. If vaccine immunity is failing (which it is because it is not herd immunity), then push pharma to make better products (safer too while you are at it so that we don’t have to more watch children die after the MMR) and use them. Then you and your family will be “safe” (not really but that’s for another day) and the rest of us can walk a different path. I don’t mean any of this in a mean-spirited way.

    Like

  22. Chris
    April 19, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    rockie: “…we don’t have to more watch children die after the MMR) and use them.”

    Provide the verified documentation that this is a common occurrence. VAERS reports do not count:
    https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/vaccine-injuries-from-the-mmr-a-review-of-vaers/

    Like

  23. April 19, 2015 at 12:49 pm

    Immunity is immunity….doesn’t matter if it was achieve via vaccine or natural infection.

    The advantage of vaccines is that it helps get around the pesky problem of unvaccinated individuals getting continuous added to the population (i.e. Babies).

    Break the chain of infection allows for true herd immunity and disease eradication.

    Like

  24. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    Lawrence, it doesn’t matter if it was Measles or Whooping Cough. Here’s what JGC said, “We instead see the outbreaks occurring in the US in isolated, regional communities where vaccine compliance has fallen below the threshold sufficient to maintain herd immunity.”

    So it looks like in this case http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=33976026 it isn’t true. Every child was fully vaccinated.

    And you are the ignorant one, children with autism are NOT mentally ill.

    Like

  25. jgc56
    April 20, 2015 at 3:28 pm

    So, because herd immunity toward some specific infectious diseases (pertussis) can be compromised in some isolated communities (the park City school district in Utah) by other mechanisms than vaccination non-compliance, your position is that all those other outbreaks involving other infectious diseases that have occurred in other isolated communites (Ohio’s Amish community in 2014, for the Eastern Mountain International mega-church in Texas in 2013, etc.) as a result of herd immunity being compromised by vaccine non-compliance somehow either could not have happened or happened but are no cause for concern?

    That’s really your position, Ed?

    Like

  26. Lawrence
    April 20, 2015 at 4:01 pm

    @Ed – you should really read up on your source…..the pertussis vaccine doesn’t last as long as most (years instead of decades), which means that we should still keep vaccinating and also work towards a better vaccine.

    Like

  27. Chris
    April 20, 2015 at 5:06 pm

    Lawrence, also immunity to actually getting pertussis can wain as soon as five after you spent two months coughing:
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 May;24(5 Suppl):S58-61.
    Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.

    It is not surprising that Ed does not know the differences between bacteria and virus, or why it is important.

    Like

  28. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 6:06 pm

    JGC, now you are assuming what you think my position is. The point was that your statement was false.

    After somebody asked you, “Why then are we seeing outbreaks in the U.S. and in other countries in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations?”
    And you said, “But we don’t, do we? We instead see the outbreaks occurring in the US in isolated, regional communities where vaccine compliance has fallen below the threshold sufficient to maintain herd immunity.”

    There are outbreaks in in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations.

    Like

  29. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 6:08 pm

    Lawrence, why do I need to read up? I know the pertussis vaccine doesn’t work for long, so I’m not sure what your complaint is.

    Like

  30. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    Chris, “It is not surprising that Ed does not know the differences between bacteria and virus, or why it is important.”

    I must have missed that part of the discussion. It’s not surprising to me that you deny that the pertussis vaccine wanes quickly, even Lawrence admits it. Maybe you should read up on it Chris.

    Like

  31. Lawrence
    April 20, 2015 at 6:17 pm

    @Ed – so why is it that these outbreaks always start with an unvaccinated individual who then spread the disease to clusters of other, unvaccinated individuals?

    And measles will infect 80 – 90% of those non-immune who come in contact with it – I’d say the vaccine works pretty damn well that we only have hundreds of cases and not hundreds of thousands…..so, I have no idea what your point is.

    Like

  32. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm

    Lawrence, “so why is it that these outbreaks always start with an unvaccinated individual who then spread the disease to clusters of other, unvaccinated individuals?”

    They DON’T always start that way, as I have shown. Are you just dense?

    Like

  33. novalox
    April 20, 2015 at 6:47 pm

    @ed

    No, you haven’t.

    Also, [citation needed] within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are lying to us and admit that everything that you have said can be assumed as such.

    Like

  34. Chris
    April 20, 2015 at 6:48 pm

    Me.Kasmer: “It’s not surprising to me that you deny that the pertussis vaccine wanes quickly..”

    You seem to have issues with both reading comprehension and logic. Oops, I left out a word: ” immunity to actually getting pertussis can wain as soon as five years after you spent two months coughing.” It is obvious you did not click on the link,

    Why would you think a vaccine could provide better immunity than surviving the disease? Do tell us what kind of immunity one gets after surviving tetanus or diphtheria.

    Like

  35. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    novalox,

    I already posted my citation. Seems like from what you wrote that you may need some help.

    Like

  36. Ed Kasmer
    April 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    Chris, just admit that that the pertussis vaccine doesn’t last very long. And getting the vaccine does not stop you from coughing. Why would you think that? Do tell us.

    Like

  37. Chris
    April 20, 2015 at 7:10 pm

    Mr. Kasmer, perhaps you should ask some to explain the words I wrote.

    If immunity to the actual disease wears off why should a vaccine provide better immunity?

    Like

  38. novalox
    April 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    @ed

    Strike 1 and 2, we’re still waiting.

    And again, don’t assign your mental problems onto others. That’s just unseemly.

    Like

  39. jgc56
    April 21, 2015 at 12:40 am

    Fine, Ed: I’ll amend my statement to read “Except in very, VERY rare and exceptional instances we don’t see outbreaks occurring in fully vaccinated populations, but instead in isolated populations where herd immunity has been compromised by failure to comply with routine vaccination.”

    That do it for you?

    Like

  40. Ed Kasmer
    April 21, 2015 at 11:13 am

    Chris,

    You can’t have it both ways.
    Now you are making excuses for the vaccine.

    Like

  41. Ed Kasmer
    April 21, 2015 at 11:14 am

    JGC,

    Sounds like you are mad at me for pointing out your mistake. I hope it does it for you, not me.

    Like

  42. Chris
    April 21, 2015 at 11:36 am

    Mr. Kasper, I see reading is a challenge for you.

    Like

  43. Ed Kasmer
    April 21, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Mr. Chris, I see reading comprehension is a challenge for you.

    Like

  44. Lawrence
    April 21, 2015 at 1:12 pm

    @ed – what both ways? The Measles vaccine is incredibly effective and extremely safe. The immunity also lasts at least decades, if not life-long.

    And all recent outbreaks of measles have been started by unvaccinated & it is the unvaccinated that also get infected at rates substantially higher than those who were vaccinated (i.e. falls right in line with what we know about Measles vaccine effectiveness).

    So, it seems you can’t win on Measles, so you change the argument to be about Pertussis, which is a different story all-together.

    Like

  45. jgc56
    April 21, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    I wouldn’t agree that you pointed out a mistake–if you’ll recall your claim was that we see measles outbreaks in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations (“We are being told by the media, CDC and our doctors that the less than 10% of the population that is unvaccinated* is causing a resurgence in measles and other childhood illnesses. Why then are we seeing outbreaks in the U.S. and in other countries in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations? “) but have provided no evidence this is the case.

    Instead you’ve provided evidence that we have seen pertussis outbreaks are seen in fully or close to fully vaccinated populations when waning protection from the vaccines currently in use compromises herd immunity.

    If you can provide evidence that we see measles outbreaks occurring in fully or clos to fully vaccianted populstions as often as we see them occur in populations where compliance isn’t sufficient to maintain herd immunity then I’ll cheerfully admit that I am mistaken–in fact, I’ll be grateful to have had my misapprehension corrected.

    Like

  46. Lawrence
  47. novalox
    April 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    @ed

    Strike 3 yer out.

    We can assume that everything that you have said, as well as anything else that you say here can be construed as a lie and treat all your comments as such.

    So then, we can see that you agree that that vaccine for measles and pertussis is safe and effective and better than the disease.

    Like

  48. soubanh
    April 21, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    Hello old friends, it appears not much have changed since my last visit. As some of you may remember, my concerns wasn’t much about vaccine effectiveness and safety as much as the data, citations and sources for which you reference. I suggested that information can and do get altered for the benefit of whoever is behind the research (follow the money ). I left the discussion suggesting you to join http://www.thepeopleschemist.com to get a different perspective but doesn’t look like anyone did. So I guess my first question is how does one make an informed decision if one only see from one view(Western medicine )? Because of this question I was drawn here to learn and understand your views and I have to say the media and the pharmaceutical are doing an exceptional job. By the way, whatever happened with the Disney supposedly outbreak? All the fear and propaganda methods I suggested that was used to scare the American people. Think about it, is only an epidemic because the WHO or CDC said but what about the Tylenol that killed 30 thousands per year or the Iatrogenic death by FDA approved drugs and procedures done by allopathic doctors? When you step back and look at the bigger picture, this is more than a vaccine topic is about one group of business trying to protect their profits at the expense of the innocent. And along the way, they have us little guys fighting with each other and they are laughing all the ways to the bank. Thanks

    Like

  49. Chris
    April 22, 2015 at 12:21 am

    Oooh, a guy with a masters in chemistry beets all those PhDs, MDs and MPHs in public health. And look, he sells pills, books and CDs. Surely we should ignore the mrdical advances of the past eight decades and buy his stuff!

    Look, he has a reputation:
    http://www.medicalprogresstoday.com/2012/07/more-nonsense-from-nature-nuts.php
    http://athletewithstent.com/2011/07/08/a-masters-degree-in-science-in-defense-of-my-colleagues-in-pharma/

    Again just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm that the diseases. Self described gurus with products for sell are not considered reputable.

    Like

  50. Chris
    April 22, 2015 at 12:24 am

    “and they are laughing all the ways to the bank.”

    So is Shane Ellison. Imagine that. P.T. Barnum was right.

    Like

  51. novalox
    April 22, 2015 at 1:53 am

    @soubanah

    Again, why should any rational person believe a known liar like you?

    Like

  52. Lawrence
    April 22, 2015 at 5:46 am

    @soubanah – guess what, the same medicine we practice here in the States is the same medicine that is practiced in Europe, Asia, Africa and South America.

    Several vaccines we use today were originally developed in Japan. On the other hand, homeopathy originated from Germany (so woo-tastic stuff isn’t just the purview of one country or region).

    There is only medicine on one side & crap that doesn’t work on the other.

    If you have specific issues with the studies presented – then, by all means, please present them. Otherwise, just go away.

    Like

  53. soubanh
    April 22, 2015 at 7:59 am

    @Chris- I’m sorry I didn’t know I needed to suggest you to have an open mind when visiting an opposing view and oh please don’t be soooo quick to point out about Shane Ellison selling products cause it shows how close minded you can me and guess what? His products have Not cause any death or for that matter injury as your supported allopathic view FDA and peer review drugs and procedures have as I previously mentioned.
    @Novalox calling someone you just met a liar show how immaturity.
    @Lawrence -I’m disappointed you and your team didn’t dispute my claims about the Tylenol and Iatrogenic death by your approved FDA and peer review team and by the way when was the last time you heard vitamin C killed or harm anyone? never that’s the answer and please don’t reply with some nonsense like they don’t work, and show clinical studies cause I’ll throw your FDA approved back at you and I don’t want to. What’s my point? Your allopathic view does more harm than you know and stop being an unpaid pharmaceutical sales reps.

    Like

  54. Lawrence
    April 22, 2015 at 9:11 am

    @soubanh – because stuff that isn’t modern medicine did such a good job keeping people alive in the past….you know, with 50% infant and child mortality rates and lifespans that were stuck in the mid-30s until about the last 120 years or so….

    Your little philosophical rants are interesting, but really don’t mean anything at all.

    Medicine that works is just called medicine….all the other stuff, isn’t.

    Despite all of the advances, guess what, people still die – and some die of the treatments they receive. On the other hand, tens of millions of people are alive today because of modern medicine too.

    Like

  55. jgc56
    April 22, 2015 at 9:57 am

    “I suggested that information can and do get altered for the benefit of whoever is behind the research (follow the money ).”

    As your suggestion, however, was unsupported by any evidence that the publ;ished body of research supporting the safety and efficacy of routine vaccination actually has been altered for anyne’s benefit, it can best be characterized as a conspracy theory–one which, by the way, would require the cooperation of entities whose financial interests would not be served but would be adversely impacted by falsifying research to make vaccines appear safer (insurance gompanies, who do not benefit by covering medical inteventions known to be either unsafe or ineffective).

    “By the way, whatever happened with the Disney supposedly outbreak?”
    Why do you describe a multistate measles outbreak responsible for 70% of all measles cases nationwide this year (131 in California alone, with 80 of those infected unvaccinated against measles) by using of the word ‘supposedly”? Do you seriously doubt that it’s measles? Do you seriously doubt it’s an outbreak?

    “what about the Tylenol that killed 30 thousands per year or the Iatrogenic death by FDA approved drugs and procedures done by allopathic doctors?”

    Thirty thousands per year? Citations needed.Other than that, I give up:what about it? What point regarding the safety and efficacy of routine vaccination are you trying to make here?

    “When you step back and look at the bigger picture, this is more than a vaccine topic is about one group of business trying to protect their profits at the expense of the innocent.”

    And we’re right back to the beginning: your evidence that one group of businesses is trying to protect their profits at the expense of the innocent would be…what, exactly? be specific.

    I mean, you do actually HAVE some, right? Your argument doesn’t reduce to nothing other than “Big businesses–we all know what they’re like!” seasoned with a large scoop of “Well, it COULD happen, couldn’t it?”

    Like

  56. Lawrence
    April 22, 2015 at 10:09 am

    The notion that “Tylenol” is some kind of killer drug is laughable……anything, when abused or taken to the point of toxicity (including water) can kill someone.

    Like

  57. jgc56
    April 22, 2015 at 10:16 am

    Re: deaths due to Tylenol:
    According to the FDA there are about ~980 deaths each year due to individuals overdosing on acetaminophen. The year 2006 was the first on record where the number of deaths due to accidental overdose exceeded the number of deaths due to deliberate overdose by people attempting suicide.

    So yes: acetaminophen when taken at higher doses than known to be safe can be fatal—just as can almost all pharmacologically active compounds. It’s only things that don’t actually DO anything (hello, homeopathy?) that can be taken without regard for dosage.

    It seems to me you’re trying to argue that because Tylenol when taken accidentally or deliberately at doses greater than known to be safe can result in fatal overdoses, we should be concerned that vaccines when taken according to a schedule that is known to be safe are dangerous.

    Surely you see the problem with attempting that comparison and why deaths due to Tylenol overdose aren’t evidence in support of your position re: vaccines?

    Like

  58. ThomasPaine
    April 22, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    And what about the thousand moms that lined up outside the California state legislature to oppose sb277? Are they all lying that their children were damaged hours after receiving a vaccine? They have nothing to gain by doing this. Conversely, Dr Richard Pan had to receive direction from two Pharma Lobbyists on whether to delay the vote….I wonder what he stands to gain from this legislation.

    Not one single death from the measles Disneyland outbreak!!! imagine that. If you care about the children, ban swimming pools and stairs. they kill far more!

    Like

  59. Lawrence
    April 22, 2015 at 12:23 pm

    @TP – first, we don’t know if any of the children who were infected are going to get SSPE, which is a 100% fatal side effect of measles.

    Second, yes – those parents are wrong and nothing in the California bill forces vaccination anyway.

    Third, Dr. Pan is a doctor – supporting this bill is a common sense way to prevent more outbreaks.

    And fourth, SB277 just passed it’s second committee vote.

    Like

  60. novalox
    April 22, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    @thomas

    Hmm, how about the risks for SSPE for those who caught the measles? Also, how about the week or so of suffering for the children who ended up catching measles, which could have been completely prevented through vaccination?

    Are you some sort of sadist who enjoys seeing people suffer? If you have children (which I certainly hope you don’t), I would pity them having such a horrible parent.

    The rest of your little rant reads as conspiracy theory and outright lies, so we can dismiss it as such.

    Like

  61. Ed Kasmer
    April 22, 2015 at 4:46 pm

    SSPE is a very rare; as a matter of fact the CDC estimates that between 4-11 people out of every 100,000 are at risk to get it SSPE. That’s at risk of getting it, not actually getting it.

    Like

  62. jgc56
    April 22, 2015 at 4:46 pm

    “And what about the thousand moms that lined up outside the California state legislature to oppose sb277? Are they all lying that their children were damaged hours after receiving a vaccine?”
    Not lying, just mistaken that the injuries they are attributing to vaccination was actually caused by the vaccines their children received. Recall their beleif it was is founded on nothing other than post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

    Which is exactly what we’d expect, given the incidence of death due to mealses is 1 for every 1000 infections, and far less than 1000 in total became infected as a consequence of this outbreak .

    That said, did you have a point? You’d do well to recall roughly one quarter of those infected in the outbreak required hospitalization, and that mealses can lead to other serious consequences (Including death years after infection from SSPE).

    Like

  63. jgc56
    April 22, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    “SSPE is a very rare; as a matter of fact the CDC estimates that between 4-11 people out of every 100,000 are at risk to get it SSPE.”

    In other words, still greater than the risk of the most serious consequences associated with being vaccinated–right?Eencephalopathy, for example, occurs in roughly 1 out of every 1 million MMR vaccinations.

    Like

  64. Ed Kasmer
    April 22, 2015 at 5:08 pm

    There is a difference between, “at risk” and “occurs”.

    Like

  65. Kyle
    April 22, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Mandatory vaccinations in America is a very touchy topic, with both sides so far apart. If vaccinations were made mandatory then we would have enough people vaccinated to protect the herd. Meaning that even the rare people who can not receive a vaccination will not receive a cureable disease because enough other people will have had the vaccine. Since the development of vaccines cureable diseases like smallpox and measles have been basically irradicated. So, if they are made mandatory then these dieseases will never make a come back, and in the future we can irradicate more dieseases. It is time for the scientific research, and studies to be made aware to everyone, and show how necessary vaccinations are, and how dangerous societ can be without vaccinations being received.

    Like

  66. Lawrence
    April 22, 2015 at 6:05 pm

    @ed – but the actual number of SSPE deaths now appears to be much higher than we had thought:

    http://pastebin.com/aLf5C1DV

    Compare that to the low number of measles infections over the last ten years & it appears that the odds are very much not in our favor.

    Like

  67. April 23, 2015 at 6:08 am

    Ed, everyone who has had measles is “at risk” of SSPE.
    Between one in 10 and 25 thousand will go on to get it.

    Like

  68. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    @Lawrence, you said
    “The notion that “Tylenol” is some kind of killer drug is laughable……anything, when abused or taken to the point of toxicity (including water) can kill someone”.

    Your reply to Thomas
    “Second, yes – those parents are wrong and nothing in the California bill forces vaccination anyway”.

    Third, Dr. Pan is a doctor – supporting this bill is a common sense way to prevent more outbreaks.

    Lawrence, first I want to thank you and thank you so much for saying what you did here because now if you and the rest of the pro vac would relax and allow some real truth to go into your hearts, may be we all have a real chance to dialog here. First, we concern parents(note not anti vac) are in your home and we respect that and most of us come here to also want to be heard since the main stream media won’t allow us and anytime we are mentioned is only negative associations and that’s how the rest of the public ever know and this is where the problem starts is one sided story. As you can see through out this blog, notice no matter what study Ed or Thomas or myself shared, you guys always put it down and dismiss them but when you use the same context like what you said about Tylenol and as true as your word is than Why can’t it also be true with vaccine toxicity? you know you can’t be right with what you said about Tylenol and anything when abused(per your quote) and exempt vaccine? cause this would make you and the rest of the pro vax liars or crazy or again you’re cherry picking? I don’t mean to pick on you but lets face it, we can’t talk data and science here because both sides can pull out the opposite results. But lets use our brain and start hearing each other. We haven’t even give credit to better nutrition and better sewage and sanitary and housing etc for our living longer. If we are all honest, our health as a country is worst than before, just because we live longer doesn’t equal quality. We take more drugs than ever and spend more money on health than any country but rank in the bottom. Something is wrong here and is not just the vaccine,the vaccine is just the tree and we need to look at the forest and that’s the system which has been failing us. Lastly you said supporting Dr. Pan is common sense cause he is a doctor. Again, may I point out when I first came on to you all I used a lot of my argument from common sense and you all put it down but you can use it when you feel fit? The truth is if we allow government and big pharma do what they want our freedom is gone.
    Here is something to think on when it comes to health, why are we all going to see an allopathic doctors? when they are only trained in disease and not nutrition. When was the last time you go to see an MD and not walk out with prescription drugs? cause thats all they are trained. Just a thought.

    Like

  69. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 3:12 pm

    Actually, I said Dr. Pan is a doctor, therefore his support of this bill is common sense.

    And if you think that the average doctor is not training in nutrition, you’d be wrong. Of course, they aren’t trained in the woo-tastic way, where “miracle” fruits and vegetables are promised to cure every ill.

    As for vaccine “toxicity” – why don’t you provide any evidence at all – but then again, you won’t, because you don’t want to talk about facts or evidence or proof….we should just take your word for it, right?

    And I hear you just fine – it just so happens that I’m not buying what you are selling. And no, the anti-vax side can’t pull out “opposite” results, because the science has not ever supported their position.

    Like

  70. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 3:28 pm

    Oh, and please learn to use paragraph breaks – that wall of text is a bit difficult to parse.

    Like

  71. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    soubanh, why do you think Tylenol is the same as a vaccine?

    What vaccine “toxin” is as dangerous as tetanospasmin?

    Like

  72. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 3:33 pm

    LawrenceI’m basing my evidence by your own words unless you are taking back what you said but I think you are smarter than that. The truth is everything can be toxic but you don’t want to admit that with vaccines. Is takes a man to admit.

    Like

  73. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 3:51 pm

    “The truth is everything can be toxic but you don’t want to admit that with vaccines. Is takes a man to admit.”

    It is more honest to provide actual verifiable evidence, not silly accusations.

    Like

  74. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 3:51 pm

    @soubanh – perhaps if you took thousands of vaccines at once (actually, it would be the saline component that would do you in).

    There are very good, well-known, and well-defined contra-indicators for vaccines – because vaccines are tested thoroughly, and for years, before they are finally brought to market.

    Side-effects, potential side-effects, and reactions are also well-tracked and well-known.

    I’m sorry if you are so ignorant of the process, perhaps you should do some more research before forming an opinion.

    Like

  75. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 4:05 pm

    Chris Tylenol was used as one if 100s of FDA approved that you so dearly trust as safe just like vaccines. And as Lawrence said everything is toxic but except vaccines. Lol

    Like

  76. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 4:08 pm

    More examples of your intellectual dishonesty, soubanh….you should be ashamed of your own ignorance.

    Like

  77. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 4:09 pm

    Except vaccines are not sold on the drug store shelf.

    Like

  78. novalox
    April 23, 2015 at 4:32 pm

    @soubanah

    Again, more lies from you, we can assume from your comments that you agree that vaccines are safe and effective, and that you admit that you don’t have any facts to back up your “assertions”

    Why should any rational person believe you?

    Like

  79. Ed Kasmer
    April 23, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    soubanh, I like your comments. I believe Lawrence said even water is toxic if you drink too much. Have you seen the vaccine schedule these days compared to the old days?

    Too much water is toxic, I submit too many vaccines are also toxic.

    Like

  80. Ed Kasmer
    April 23, 2015 at 6:11 pm

    Like

  81. Ed Kasmer
    April 23, 2015 at 6:32 pm

    Not posting my links, must not like Tenpenny

    Like

  82. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 7:13 pm

    There they are in all of there silly glory.

    So hoe exactly is actually getting haemophilus influenzae type b better than getting the HIB vaccine?

    What vaccine “toxin” is as dangerous as tetanospasmin?

    Like

  83. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 7:13 pm

    Oops: their silly glory

    Like

  84. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 7:53 pm

    Yes, it is wonderful that we can now vaccinate against other serious diseases – and given the rigorous FDA approval process, I’m very comfortable with the current schedule.

    And with luck, we’ll be removing IPV from the schedule over the next few years, once Polio has been eradicated.

    Like

  85. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 7:53 pm

    Lawrence you and the pro vax friends can really learn what I’m about to share again if you would really read and think and not start forming argument. I don’t need data and studies to prove to me what is good for my body or if vaccines work or safe . The truth is most anti vax was not born anti vax. We were once you, we followed the same system (Western Big Pharma ) you are. I did for 20 years

    Like

  86. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 8:10 pm

    sorry I’m writing this with my phone.
    continue. …after more than 20 years of following big pharmaceutical system and still having allergies and other health issues, one needs to ask what is my options? Will I don’t need to go into details but I still have my methadone bottle to remind myself that Western medicine is just a cover up of diseases and unless is emergency I don’t need there services. Is been over 10 years since and how dare any pro vax whose only experienced the one side the side which I’ve already been want me to believe more drugs is what I need to protect myself? Please be careful with your reply here cause you may put your foot in your mouth (just fare warning ). My point? I’ve tried what you have and it didn’t work, I was on your shots, drugs and I was lack of energy and

    Like

  87. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 8:15 pm

    “(Western Big Pharma ) ”

    So you are okay with the DTaP and varicella vaccines that were both developed in Japan. Good to know you judge medicine by geography and whether or not the page sells stuff (like Shane Ellison and Sherry Tenpenny).

    Like

  88. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 8:28 pm

    Sorry again.
    Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Sorry vaccines(and allopathic medicine ) you had your chance.
    I do want to note, Lawrence you said Dr Pan supporting the new proposal was a common sense thing because his a doctor. I Like Your Opinion and the Rest of the crew here so be honest. Because we all (both sides )know there are other doctors, even MD that opposed this proposal, is their views that less of important? Cause again, some of these doctors like Mercola,Hayman,Tenpenny etc..are notime quacks as I know you want to label them but have a successful practice. So who decides which doctor is right or wrong? Can we say follow the money? Iam amazed how easily people get brain washed. Remember, I’m not on prescription drugs and I’m willing to say you can’t say that.

    Like

  89. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    Hey Chris, don’t even go there unless you lived in Asia as I did. Just so you know Japan banned Tama flu and other countries like India are opposed to Monsanto (drugs )paradigm ways of operation. While living in eastern Asia, allopathic doctors was the last choice, so don’t go there wrong turn.

    Like

  90. Lawrence
    April 23, 2015 at 8:43 pm

    @soubanh – I don’t do crazy….feel free to continue to rant and rave, but I’m not sure what planet you are living on, because it doesn’t appear to be this one.

    I also don’t take medical advice from people that have their own entry in the Encyclopedia of American Loons…..

    And I’ll also say that you’re assumptions are dead wrong – though you are the one that appears to require some form of medication.

    And lastly, as far as who is right vs. who is wrong, just look at the evidence…..there is plenty to support vaccines & none behind those that attempt to vilify it.

    I’m sorry that you are so close-minded & ignore that which is right in front of your face.

    Like

  91. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 9:25 pm

    “Just so you know Japan banned Tama flu…”

    So? Their politicians bend to unscientific requests and children die:

    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

    “An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.”

    BMC Public Health. 2005 Jun 4;5:59.
    Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan.

    “As of 1994, an amendment to the Immunization Law made vaccination voluntary and not mandatory. According to the present law, a single dose of measles vaccine is recommended for children over one year of age. Children are eligible to receive measles vaccination after 12 months following birth but not beyond 90 months. Until January 2004, adminisiration of measles vaccine was recommended between 12 and 24 months of age, instead of between 12 and 15 months when children have the greatest risk of contracting measles [10]. In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.”

    Like

  92. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 9:32 pm

    Japanese medical experts have been unhappy with their politicians, Why is measles still endemic in Japan?:

    “Japan has contributed a great deal financially to the global movement to eliminate measles through the United Nation Children’s Fund (UNICEF), and infant mortality in Japan is among the lowest in the world. Nevertheless, many Japanese children still die from a vaccine-preventable disease. Why is that?”

    … and the answer is…. “Since 1994, the Japanese government has played a very passive part in the formulation of vaccine policies, mainly because of strong public opposition to the reinforcement of mandatory vaccination.”

    … the solution is…”Strong political and social desire has to be inspired, and vigorous educational campaigns for policy makers and the general public are required. If there are clear strategies and prioritisation on vaccine policies, and a strong will to combat the disease, measles in Japan can be controlled. The great success of near elimination of measles on the American continents is strong encouragement.5 It is time for the Japanese government to regain leadership on this issue.”

    Like

  93. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    @Lawrence I’m sorry but I don’t believe being drug free (yes including vaccines ) and have not missed work due to flu or flu like symptoms or being Sick period is now according to your assumption an illness for which I need medication? See your thought process? would only lead one to believe you have bought the kool-aid of big pharma cause the only solution is from drugs. I’m truly sorry
    but you need some ginkgo biloba and some free vitamin D from the natural sunshine. As a matter of fact, take Chris and the other pro vax with you it will do you all good.

    Like

  94. Chris
    April 23, 2015 at 10:24 pm

    soubanh, what kind dressing do you want with your word salad?

    Like

  95. soubanh
    April 23, 2015 at 10:56 pm

    Chris, that depends from which countries. I only have 4 to choose from that I’m fluent with . But thanks for asking.
    Listen, I was thinking, I don’t want to be disrespectful in your home. So fist things first, I owe you, Lawrence and anybody else I may have offended an apology. I know we will not see eye to eyes with the vaccines topic, but I have to admit since I left the last blog with you guys I did some sideline blogging and others are not as interesting and yes as intelligent as you guys are. Oh also, you all don’t swear here either so keep up your high standard. But also be humble cause you’ll win over more people to your views. Enough said, I am busy with other work and must leave you all and will probably unsubscribe to Shot2prevent since I won’t be tempted to check out the blog. Again for what is worth, you guys are OK. Take care!

    Like

  96. Lawrence
    April 29, 2015 at 4:22 am

    Congratulations to the Supporters of SB277 – the bill has now passed through three separate committees, with only one more to go before being sent to the Senate floor for debate.

    Like

  97. Ed Kasmer
    April 29, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    If SB277 goes all the way, it will be a tragedy. Loss of freedom and choice and it will be forced medical procedures.

    Like

  98. April 29, 2015 at 5:31 pm

    @Ed – I assume you haven’t actually read the bill, since it does none of those things.

    Like

  99. Ed Kasmer
    April 29, 2015 at 5:56 pm

    What world are you living in Lawrence? It does all of those things.

    Only medical waivers will be allowed and they are impossible to get. A vaccine could have caused a seizure, but as soon as you recover you are good to go again. No waiver.

    So that leaves home-schooling. How many parents can quit their jobs to home-school this day in age? Not many. And if they can, they may not pass muster to home-school their kids.

    So as you can see, if you want your kids to attend public schools because there is no other means, and by law you are required to have schooling, then you will be forced to vaccinate even if you don’t want to.

    Like

  100. Lawrence
    April 29, 2015 at 7:14 pm

    @Ed – please show proof that “medical” waivers are impossible to get.

    Like

  101. Ed Kasmer
    April 29, 2015 at 8:24 pm

    Here you go, with references to CDC and Gov sites http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/vaccines-myth-medical-exemption/

    My friend has a child with allergies to some of the ingredients in vaccines and she can’t get her child an exemption. Does that seem right??

    Like

  102. Chris
    April 29, 2015 at 8:35 pm

    “Does that seem right??”

    Only if you provide the full medical records. What has been noticed by many, especially the Special Masters of the Vaccine Court, is that what the parents claim is often completely different than what is in the medical records… and many times than the videos taken by those sam parents.

    Like

  103. novalox
    April 29, 2015 at 10:58 pm

    @ed

    Considering that you have been proven a liar, we can assume that what you are saying is a lie, and that you admit that the bill is good public health policy.

    Also, looking at your links, they don’t say what you think you seem you want them to say.

    Like

  104. jgc56
    April 30, 2015 at 12:02 am

    “So as you can see, if you want your kids to attend public schools because there is no other means, and by law you are required to have schooling, then you will be forced to vaccinate even if you don’t want to.”

    No, Ed–you won’t be forced to vaccinate. You can CHOOSE to vaccinate, if you decide that attending public school rather than home schooling is the best path you wish to pursue, but weren’t you just arguing in your post of April 29, 2015 at 5:17 pm that the ability to exercise choice is what you’re seeking?

    Like

  105. Ed Kasmer
    April 30, 2015 at 12:51 am

    Chris, no idea what you are talking about.
    My friend has lab tested blood results that her child is allergic to some ingredients in vaccines and yet is not permitted a medical waiver.

    Like

  106. Ed Kasmer
    April 30, 2015 at 12:57 am

    jgc,
    You are required by law to go to school or be home schooled.
    I have friends in California that cannot quit their job (or they can’t survive) to home school.
    So they must send their kids to public school.
    And they will have to be vaccinated to go to public school if this law goes through.

    Tell me again where the choice is?

    One can’t just “decide” to quit their job and home-school. Wake up to reality why don’t you. Are you able to talk about the reality of the situation and not some fantasy land?

    Or are you going to keep on pretending that it is still a choice for everybody?

    Like

  107. Ed Kasmer
    April 30, 2015 at 12:58 am

    Bottom line: Vaccines come with risks so they should not be mandatory. I would sue the state of California if I had a vaccine reaction.

    Like

  108. novalox
    April 30, 2015 at 3:44 am

    @ed

    Again, why should anyone believe a known liar like you? Considering your repeated lies, I have my doubts about your story about your “friend”

    Also, what is the risk of a vaccine reaction vs that of the actual disease that it prevents? Chris has asked you the question time after time yet your non-answer is telling about the lack of science behind your views.

    Third, where does it say,either in the post or in the comments, that vaccines would become mandatory? All the things about vaccines had to become mandatory are from known anti-vax liars like you and your ilk. If you don’t want to have your child vaccinated, fine, but don’t expect to allow your child to go to public school as a result unless they have a known medical condition, not something made up by woo-meisters or cranks that you seem so fond of. You can still send your child to a school that doesn’t need vaccinations or you can home school. Consider that the government can you you benefits but at the same time, you need to take responsibilities. Vaccination to help protect your own child as well as those who cannot be vaccinated due to health reasons.

    Like

  109. novalox
    April 30, 2015 at 3:46 am

    @ed

    Also, if you child did have a reaction to the vaccine, you can always go to the vaccine court, where they will compensate a family for known vaccine reactions, not made up stuff like some of the anti-vax people would like you to believe.

    Like

  110. Lawrence
    April 30, 2015 at 6:25 am

    @Ed – the US Constitution and the US Supreme Court was disagree with you. Not only is there that precedent, but both West Virginia and Mississippi have had these policies in place for as long as anyone can remember – and when you are dealing with Public Schools, Public Health policies are set to protect everyone, and that includes those who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons.

    Sure, you can rely on anti-vax scaremongering, or you can read the bill and speak with actual, real doctors (not anti-vax quacks).

    Like

  111. Chris
    April 30, 2015 at 10:46 am

    Ed: “Chris, no idea what you are talking about.”

    Not surprising.

    “My friend has lab tested blood results…”

    Not all laboratories are accurate.

    “Bottom line: Vaccines come with risks so they should not be mandatory.”

    What are the risks compared to the diseases?

    “I would sue the state of California if I had a vaccine reaction.”

    Do you mind being sued by a family of a child who was hurt because your family gave that child a vaccine preventable disease? Or is all about your and yours, who cares about anyone else?

    Like

  112. jgc56
    April 30, 2015 at 11:10 am

    Ed, SB277 contains no language mandating forcible medical procedures, despite your claim it does. After it’s passage parents will still be able to choose whether or not to have their children vaccinated. It may not be an easy choice, and choosing not to vaccinate may have consequences some parents may not like, but their ability to choose will remain intact theirs.

    What you’re really complaining about is that after SB277’s passage people will no longer be able to choose not to vaccinate while continuing to enjoy the same benefits people who choose to vaccinate receive (such as eligibility to enroll in public school systems).

    Choices have consequences–who’d have thought?

    Like

  113. jgc56
    April 30, 2015 at 11:15 am

    “Bottom line: Vaccines come with risks so they should not be mandatory.”

    Remaining vulnerable to infectious diseases by electing not to vaccinate comes with much, much greater risk, not only to those chooisng not to vaccinate themselves but to third parties who may for legitimate mdeical reasons not be suitable candidates for vaccination, and therefore the state has a compelling interest to provide for the public health by requiring all children enrolled in pubic schools be vaccianted according to the recommended childhood schedule.

    Like

  114. Ed Kasmer
    May 1, 2015 at 6:37 pm

    Ever heard of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act?
    The title alone points to fact that vaccines can injure children.
    You guys are pathetic. You’ll say anything to “win” your argument but you don’t speak in real world terms regarding real lives and real people.

    @Chris
    All you can come up with is… “not all laboratories are accurate”? There were no questions about the lab and it was not an issue.
    And you say, “what are the risks compared to the diseases”? It doesn’t matter, you just admitted that there are risks, so because of the “risks” one should have a choice. It’s not a matter of “if” somebody will be injured, it’s how many. It’s all a numbers game.
    And you said, “Do you mind being sued by a family of a child who was hurt because your family gave that child a vaccine preventable disease? Or is all about your and yours, who cares about anyone else?” Vaccinated people spread more disease than the unvaxed. So sue one of them. Also, there is no such thing as “vaccine preventable”. Not one vaccine is 100% effective.

    @jgc,
    You said, Ed, SB277 contains no language mandating forcible medical procedures, despite your claim it does. After it’s passage parents will still be able to choose whether or not to have their children vaccinated. It may not be an easy choice, and choosing not to vaccinate may have consequences some parents may not like, but their ability to choose will remain intact theirs.”

    Again, you are not living in the real world. I have friends in California and they CAN’T quit their jobs to home-school or they won’t be able to eat food, have shelter, live, etc. get it? By law they are required to school their kids, so that means they will have to go to public school since they CAN’T home-school. Well, in order for them to obey the laws (sending kids to school) they will now have to vaccinate their kids. How do you see that as a choice? The law is to school your kid and you must be vaccinated to go to school. That’s not a choice. And what if their kids are one of the ones that gets injured? They have a history of vaccine injury in their family, thus the reason they don’t vaccinate. Oh, but vaccine history is NOT a reason for medical waiver either. Do you think any amount of money makes up for a vaccine injury? I will tell you, it doesn’t!

    Like

  115. Chris
    May 1, 2015 at 6:59 pm

    “Ever heard of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act?
    The title alone points to fact that vaccines can injure children.”

    So how much are those injuries compared yo the actual diseases? This year over a hundred kids died from flu. Do provide the verified documentation that vaccines have caused similar damage in one year.

    Now about the NVICP, check out the numbers:

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreport.pdf

    The first table shows the data from 2006 to about the present, a total of eight years. The grand total of the first column shows the number of vaccines give from 2006 to 2013, which is 2,236,678,735. That is seven years, so about 319525533 per year, so for eight years it is around 2556204270 vaccine doses. Now look at the total number of compensated claims:, 1,672.

    Take note that the majority are settlements, which means there was no real proof the vaccines caused the injury.

    Now what is the ratio of numbers of vaccines given versus compensated claims? Is it a big or small number? Where are the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing vaccines cause more harm than the diseases?

    “Vaccinated people spread more disease than the unvaxed.”

    Citation needed, especially for viral vaccines.

    “Again, you are not living in the real world. I have friends in California and they CAN’T quit their jobs to home-school or they won’t be able to eat food, have shelter, live, etc. get it?”

    Cry me a river. My sympathy is equal to the citations you have provided on the relative risks between vaccines and diseases: which is one over x as x approaches infinity.

    Like

  116. Ed Kasmer
    May 1, 2015 at 7:21 pm

    “So how much are those injuries compared yo the actual diseases? This year over a hundred kids died from flu. Do provide the verified documentation that vaccines have caused similar damage in one year.”

    You completely miss the point Chris. Of course, that is your intention, since you can’t admit that injuries happen. If there is risk, there should be choice. Period.

    “Take note that the majority are settlements, which means there was no real proof the vaccines caused the injury.”

    Keep living in denial and in your fantasy land. “There was no real proof” Injuries happen. Period.

    Like

  117. Lawrence
    May 1, 2015 at 7:49 pm

    And people die of vaccine preventable diseases too – in much larger numbers, as are people harmed by those diseases too, in much, much higher numbers.

    Like

  118. Chris
    May 1, 2015 at 7:55 pm

    “You completely miss the point Chris. Of course, that is your intention, since you can’t admit that injuries happen. If there is risk, there should be choice. Period.”

    Except those “choices” are done with incomplete and very wrong data. This past year there were “a total of 159 measles cases …. ” and “Twenty-two patients (14%) were hospitalized, including five with pneumonia.”. What evidence shows the MMR put almost two dozen people in the hospital each year?

    “If there is risk, there should be choice. ”

    What is the risk from the vaccine? What is 1672 divided by 2556204270? Is it more than the 5% risk of pneumonia and 0.1% risk of encephalitis from measles?

    “Keep living in denial and in your fantasy land”

    I am not the invoking the Nirvana Fallacy. Perhaps you can tell why getting measles is so much better than getting two MMR vaccine doses.

    Like

  119. Ed Kasmer
    May 1, 2015 at 8:23 pm

    “And people die of vaccine preventable diseases too – in much larger numbers, as are people harmed by those diseases too, in much, much higher numbers.”

    What does that have to do with risk of injury from vaccines?

    IF THERE IS A RISK THERE MUST BE A CHOICE!

    Like

  120. Lawrence
    May 1, 2015 at 8:45 pm

    @Ed – and you’ve yet to provide any evidence that “choice” is removed by SB277.

    You flatly ignore that with every choice we make, there are consequences as well.

    Like

  121. Chris
    May 1, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    “IF THERE IS A RISK THERE MUST BE A CHOICE!”

    Nirvana Fallacy. Why would you choose the risk of a disease?

    Like

  122. Ed Kasmer
    May 2, 2015 at 1:13 am

    Nirvana Fallacy has nothing to do with it.

    Exactly, I should be able to choose, risk of vaccine or risk of disease. It should be my right to choose.

    Like

  123. Chris
    May 2, 2015 at 1:30 am

    “risk of vaccine or risk of disease.”

    Why would you choose the higher risk from disease?

    In just the past year over a hundred kids died from influenza, over twenty ended up in the hospital because of measles, and on and on. So why is preventing disease with vaccines more dangerous? Is it because you a innumerate?

    Liked by 1 person

  124. May 2, 2015 at 7:40 am

    @ed – I suggest you read up on the history of vaccines and Constitutional Law.

    Courts have found, repeatedly, that vaccine mandates are a vital part of protecting public health and that the benefits outweigh the risks to such a degree that limiting exemption for reasons other than legitimate medical ones, are both Constitutional and correct.

    Like

  125. jgc56
    May 2, 2015 at 10:39 am

    Ed, you have the right and ability to choose. SB277’s passage won’t change that-no one is going to forcibly vaccinate you against your wishes after its passage..

    What you’re really complaining about is that you want your preferred choices to be free of consequence.

    Liked by 1 person

  126. Ed Kasmer
    May 2, 2015 at 1:40 pm

    Chris, “Why would you choose the higher risk from disease? Because I know that the vaccines are not 100% effective, so if I choose to get the vaccine and the risk of injury that comes with it, it may not even help keep the disease away anyway. I also believe that vaccines are not good for your over-all health. They do not make you healthier that is for sure. So there is your answer. Also, I have not had the flu or flu-like symptoms in 10 years, ever since I STOPPED getting the flu vaccine. So those are my reasons. Are you OK with the fact that it is my choice? And I do not apologize if you have a problem with my view. It is my body and I will choose what to do with it.

    Lawrence, “Courts have found, repeatedly, that vaccine mandates are a vital part of protecting public health and that the benefits outweigh the risks to such a degree that limiting exemption for reasons other than legitimate medical ones, are both Constitutional and correct.”
    Great “you say” the courts think the benefits outweigh the risks. Then the courts can take the vaccines. I am not the courts. So when they force somebody to get a vaccine against their will and then that person get vaccine injured, what then??? People will be injured, it is a fact. It’s a numbers game, so people will be vaccine injured. What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine??? What Lawrence? What? I would love to hear your view on this. After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do?

    Jgc, “Ed, you have the right and ability to choose. SB277’s passage won’t change that-no one is going to forcibly vaccinate you against your wishes after its passage..”
    I have explained this a thousand different ways to you jgc. My friends won’t have a choice. That cannot afford to quit their jobs, thus they have to send their kids to school, thus they will have to be vaccinated. That is not a choice. Wake up and think about the REAL world and quit living in your fantasy land. Are you going to pay my friends money so they won’t have to work? What is your solution to their fix if you say they have a choice. Please enlighten me and tell me what their choice is. You are very dishonest in my opinion.

    Like

  127. Chris
    May 2, 2015 at 3:04 pm

    “They do not make you healthier that is for sure.”

    So you choose the much higher risk of the disease for no real reason. You are just making up excuses based by ignoring the real data.

    I see why you would not home school when you cannot do simple math like 1672 divided by 2556204270, and know why it is significant.

    Like

  128. Lawrence
    May 2, 2015 at 4:07 pm

    @Ed – I would consider a child who did not have to suffer through measles, mumps, rubella, HepA, HepB, Polio or the other sundry vaccine preventable diseases to certainly be healthier…..

    Like

  129. Ed Kasmer
    May 2, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    SO you believe vaccines protect you from diseases and make you healthier too? Please show me the studies I would love to see them. Show me a study that show getting vaccines makes a person healthier.

    “no real reason” I gave you my reasons and they are valid reasons. Who in the hell do you think you are??

    Like

  130. Ed Kasmer
    May 2, 2015 at 4:14 pm

    And I would consider any vaccine injured child that wasn’t vaccine injured to be healthier. You think putting all of those vaccine ingredients into your body makes you healthier? It’s a slow poisoning and slow;y making you sick.

    You never answered my question Lawrence.

    What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine? I would like to hear your view on this. After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do?”

    Like

  131. Lawrence
    May 2, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    @Ed- there is already the NVICP, which is a national program, so it doesn’t matter if it occurs in Mississippi or West Virginia, where vaccine requirements are very strict versus a state where the requirement are more lenient.

    Every choice you make has consequences – if I didn’t want to travel for my job, but my job required travel, then my company could very well fire me.

    Public schools have to weigh the safety of all of their students & as the Courts have ruled, over and over again, vaccines are an important part of maintaining both public health and protecting those who cannot medically be vaccinated.

    You are worried about the 1 in 1 million who may have a serious reaction to vaccine – while the School Systems (individually) are concerned about the hundreds of children who could potentially suffer from serious & sometimes life-threatening infections (not to mention those children missing significant portions of the school year – I believe Suzanne Humphries – the notorious anti-vax naturopath missed nearly a year and a half of school due to various vaccine-preventable diseases in her childhood).

    As to “vaccine-injured” – how about you give us your list of “vaccine injuries?”

    Somehow I suspect that you are grouping in a bunch of conditions that have no link to vaccines.

    Like

  132. Ed Kasmer
    May 2, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    The NVICP!!!?? How does that help a person that was vaccine injured when they didn’t want the vaccine in the first place? What are you talking about????

    “Every choice you make has consequences” Exactly, it should be my choice and my consequences. So you agree.

    “You are worried about the 1 in 1 million who may have a serious reaction to vaccine”

    Why shouldn’t I be??? I don’t want the vaccine and if I am the 1 in 1 million does that seem right to you? You’re not worried about the 1 in 1 million or your right to make your own decisions???

    So you still haven’t answered my question.

    Here are some vaccine injuries for you, as if you didn’t know people get injured http://www.mctlawyers.com/vaccine-injury/cases/

    Like

  133. Chris
    May 2, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    ““no real reason” I gave you my reasons and they are valid reasons.”

    No, they had no validity in this reality.

    “Who in the hell do you think you are??”

    Someone who does live on Htrae and knows basic statistics. Unlike you, I know what 1672 divided by 2556204270 means, especially in light of your latest link to pathetic ambulance chasers.

    Like

  134. Chris
    May 2, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    Sorry, with a broken arm I sometimes leave out words when I type with one hand:

    “Someone who does not live on Htrae and knows basic statistics.”

    Even one handed I know what 1672 divided by 2556204270 means in regards to NVICP. Seriously, only someone on Htrae would prefer the greater risk if a disease over a vaccine. Why is letting a kid get sick healthier?

    Like

  135. Ed Kasmer
    May 3, 2015 at 12:24 am

    Ambulance chasers? You have no idea what you are talking about. They are one of the Firms signed off by the government to work with the vaccine court. Now, go learn about the vaccine court and the Firms they work with so you don’t make yourself look silly again. It’s a mazing you can look at all of those vaccine injuries and see what they were paid and then still deny that there are vaccine injuries.

    “Seriously, only someone on Htrae would prefer the greater risk if a disease over a vaccine. Why is letting a kid get sick healthier?”

    Some children are genetically vulnerable to the chemical additives found in vaccines, putting them at far higher risk of injury and damage. But you don’t care about them.

    SB277 would essentially sacrifice all these children in the interests of pushing a risky medical intervention without consent.
    It’s a gross violation of ethics, civil rights and possibly even existing state law.

    Like

  136. Ed Kasmer
    May 3, 2015 at 12:28 am

    Chris, maybe you can answer the question that Lawrence refuses to answer.

    What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine? After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do for them? Apologize? Try and throw money at them? It’s not a matter of “if” it’s “how many” will be injured.

    Like

  137. Ed Kasmer
    May 3, 2015 at 2:47 pm

    Chris,

    What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine? After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do for them? Apologize? Try and throw money at them? It’s not a matter of “if” it’s “how many” will be injured.

    Still waiting for your answer.

    Like

  138. Lawrence
    May 4, 2015 at 5:47 am

    As to “vaccine-injured” – how about you give us your list of “vaccine injuries?”

    Somehow I suspect that you are grouping in a bunch of conditions that have no link to vaccines.

    I’ll repeat the question Ed…..but I don’t think you’ll be providing any answers.

    Like

  139. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 12:30 pm

    “I have explained this a thousand different ways to you jgc. My friends won’t have a choice.”
    What you’ve explained is that your friends find neither choice available attractive. Welcome to the real world.

    If I could choose I’d live on teh beach and drink mai tai’s, but unfortunately I don’t feel that I can quit my job either–are you telling me I’m being forced NOT to drink mai tai’s?

    Like

  140. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 12:32 pm

    ” It’s a slow poisoning and slow;y making you sick.”
    Citations needed, Ed: your evidence that routine childhood vaccination slowly poisons those receiving them and makes them sick would be what, exactly? be specific.

    Oh, wait-that’s right. You don’t have any…

    Like

  141. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    “Exactly, it should be my choice and my consequences.”

    No: your choice, but not your consequences. I doubt you would argue this with resepct to any other choice in life.

    “Yes your honor, I did choose to operate a motor vehicle while imparired and caused an accident that killed a family of five, with three children under 10 years of age. As my consequence I choose a stern talking to–not to excede 45 minutes, though, as I’m meeting some friends at a bar.”

    Like

  142. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 12:41 pm

    Ed, with respect to the legal settlements at the cite you linked to–how did you fail to notice that they represent settlements where no finding vaccination caused the injuries claimed was demonstrated by the plaintiff nor found by the court?

    Like

  143. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    Lawrence, “As to “vaccine-injured” – how about you give us your list of “vaccine injuries?”

    I gave you a list of vaccine e injuries from just ONE law firm.

    Why have you not answered my question?

    What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine? After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do for them? Apologize? Try and throw money at them? It’s not a matter of “if” it’s “how many” will be injured.

    Like

  144. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    Jgc, “What you’ve explained is that your friends find neither choice available attractive. Welcome to the real world.”

    No, your logic is way off. Not an attractive choice? You are the one living in Nirvana Fallacy if you believe every family is capable of home-schooling their kids. Your logic is off because children are REQUIRED by law to go to school, so there is no choice. They MUST go to school and they will HAVE to get vaccinated. That is NOT a choice.

    “No: your choice, but not your consequences. I doubt you would argue this with resepct to any other choice in life.”

    Wow, so you don’t believe we should have the freedom and choice to decide what we medically do to our own bodies? In that case, how about giving me one of your kidneys? You keeping yours affects me because I need one and will die without it, so hand it over.

    “Ed, with respect to the legal settlements at the cite you linked to–how did you fail to notice that they represent settlements where no finding vaccination caused the injuries claimed was demonstrated by the plaintiff nor found by the court?”

    Just because the respondent denies it happened doesn’t make it so. Every criminal denies they did anything wrong and they still have to suffer the consequences. It’s actually really pathetic that they deny every single vaccine injury claim. The claims listed are the ones that are paid for their injuries no matter that the respondent denies it.

    Like

  145. Chris
    May 4, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    “I gave you a list of vaccine e injuries from just ONE law firm.”

    That was especially lame.

    Like

  146. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 2:43 pm

    “You are the one living in Nirvana Fallacy if you believe every family is capable of home-schooling their kids.”

    I don’t believe all families are capable of this–in fact, I beleive that many families currently homeschooling their children are in fact incapable of doing so competently, despite having the job security or financial ability to do so.

    I’m just noting-accurately–that SB277 does not include language mandating forcible vaccination. And in fact, after it’s passage it won’t be SB277 or the requireent taht one be vaccinated to attend public school that will [perhaps make your friends choose to vaccinate their children when in some perfect world they would not: it will be the financial circumstances they find themselves in, which neither SB277 nor the school requirement for vaccination informs.

    “I gave you a list of vaccine e injuries from just ONE law firm.”
    No: you gave us a list of settlements for claimed vaccine injuries where the respondents do not admit, the plaintiff did not prove, and the court has not found vaccines caused the imjuries claimed.

    In any event, why are you offering legal settlements in lieu of scientific evidence–surely you realize they are not the same thing?

    Like

  147. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 2:53 pm

    “Wow, so you don’t believe we should have the freedom and choice to decide what we medically do to our own bodies?”

    You do have that freedom and choice: exercising that choice may have consequences,that’s all–which is entirely as it should be.

    “”In that case, how about giving me one of your kidneys? You keeping yours affects me because I need one and will die without it, so hand it over.”
    Please submit a full medical history disclosing your full name and identity, demonstrating that 1) you genuinely require a transplant, 2) you’re a good candiate for transplant, and 3) we’re a sufficiently good match that the kidney won’t be rejected, and we’ll talk.

    “Ed, with respect to the legal settlements at the cite you linked to–how did you fail to notice that they represent settlements where no finding vaccination caused the injuries claimed was demonstrated by the plaintiff nor found by the court?”

    “Just because the [plaintiff claims] it happened doesn’t make it so.”
    See how that works?

    “It’s actually really pathetic that they deny every single vaccine injury claim.”
    I haven’t dones this, however: there are known asdverse consequences associated with vaccination: those that are common (e.g., soreness at the site of injection, low grade fever), however, are both minor and transient while those that are serious (e.g., encephalopathy) are all but vanishingly rare. In any case, autism is not an ‘injury’ that has been causally associated with routine childhood vaccination.

    “The claims listed are the ones that are paid for their injuries [despite there being no demonstration nor judgment that the vaccines caused the injuries claimed].”

    FTFY. No need to thank me.

    Like

  148. Lawrence
    May 4, 2015 at 3:00 pm

    Ed continues to ignore the body of evidence and case law which is solidly in support of health policies that tighten exemptions to vaccination……

    And he also ignores that actions always have consequences, as do choices……

    Like

  149. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    But if choices have consequences they’re not choices, darn it! It’s can only be a free choice if no one is ever held accountable!

    Like

  150. Lawrence
    May 4, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    Just as the Public School systems have to carefully weigh the safety of their pupils – and the choices that are made regarding exemptions have consequences as well – as are the consequences should an outbreak effect their students.

    Like

  151. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    Jgc, “I don’t believe all families are capable of this–in fact, I believe that many families currently homeschooling their children are in fact incapable of doing so competently, despite having the job security or financial ability to do so.”

    Capable, as in quitting a job (having the means) and giving it a go.

    “I’m just noting-accurately–that SB277 does not include language mandating forcible vaccination.”

    Oh, only language that you must be vaccinated to attend school. Why are you splitting hairs?

    “No: you gave us a list of settlements for claimed vaccine injuries where the respondents do not admit, the plaintiff did not prove, and the court has not found vaccines caused the injuries claimed.”

    Well then I guess the Respondents are idiots for paying out the money if they didn’t cause the harm. Wonder why they would do that?

    “In any event, why are you offering legal settlements in lieu of scientific evidence–surely you realize they are not the same thing?”
    Just supplying you the facts. The facts are that these people have been paid out money for vaccine injuries. So there is your proof. If you deny vaccines cause injuries then you are just lying.

    “Just because the [plaintiff claims] it happened doesn’t make it so.”
    See how that works?”

    Then they shouldn’t be paying out the money. See how that works?

    “It’s actually really pathetic that they deny every single vaccine injury claim.”
    “I haven’t dones this,…..”
    I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the respondents. They reject and deny every single claim straight across the board. According to them, vaccine injuries never happen and they are never at fault.

    “But if choices have consequences they’re not choices, darn it! It’s can only be a free choice if no one is ever held accountable!”

    So who is held accountable when the vaccine injured didn’t want the vaccine?? Darn, it sure would be good to be a vaccine maker and not held accountable for anything.

    Like

  152. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    Lawrence, “Ed continues to ignore the body of evidence and case law which is solidly in support of health policies that tighten exemptions to vaccination……”

    I haven’t ignored any evidence. I happen to believe you should have the choice of injecting toxins in your body or not. It is you who ignore the evidence of the vaccine injured.

    Like

  153. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 4:28 pm

    Chris or Lawrence,

    What are the courts going to do for the vaccine injured person that did NOT want to get the vaccine? After the courts screw up a kids life and that of his family’s what are they going to do for them? Apologize? Try and throw money at them? It’s not a matter of “if” it’s “how many” will be injured.

    Like

  154. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 4:45 pm

    jgc, I almost forgot to thank you for your offer of a kidney. Are you still smoking? If so, I wouldn’t be interested. Cigarettes are as bad as vaccines.

    Like

  155. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    “Oh, only language that you must be vaccinated to attend school. Why are you splitting hairs?”
    Why are you being dishonest about the language of SB277 and the fact that it does not authorize forcible vaccination?

    “Well then I guess the Respondents are idiots for paying out the money if they didn’t cause the harm. Wonder why they would do that?”
    To save money by doing so, where the cost of settling a claim will be less than the legal costs requirely to actively defend against.

    “The facts are that these people have been paid out money for [for unproven claims of]vaccine injuries.”

    FTFY–no need to thank me.

    “Then they shouldn’t be paying out the money. See how that works?”
    Unless doing so will cost them less than defending against the claim. (“Economics–how does it effing work?!”)

    “According to them, vaccine injuries never happen and they are never at fault.”
    This isn’t true: again, no one is denying that there are known adverse events associated with vaccination: those taht are common are both tentative and midl, while those taht are serious are all but vanishingly rare, and the development of ASD’s has not been shown to be an ‘injury’ associated with vaccines.

    “So who is held accountable when the vaccine injured didn’t want the vaccine??”
    It would depend, doesn’t it? If the injury was due to a manufacturing defect the companies are directly accountable; if the injury respresents a table injury and is not a function of a manufacturing defect it would be the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program.

    “Darn, it sure would be good to be a vaccine maker and not held accountable for anything.”
    You’re sepaking as if civl suits were the only means by which pharmaceutical companies may be held accountable–surely you realize that this is not the case, and that there are state and federal agencies (like the FDA) tasked with doing little else?

    Like

  156. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    I’ll be patiently awaiting receipt of your full medical history.

    Like

  157. jgc56
    May 4, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    “I happen to believe you should have the choice of injecting toxins in your body or not.”

    Ed, your evidence that at levels of exposure acheivable by routine vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful would be-what, exactly? Be specific.

    I mean, you DO have some-right?

    Like

  158. Ed Kasmer
    May 4, 2015 at 5:12 pm

    Jgc, “I’ll be patiently awaiting receipt of your full medical history.”

    I already stated I don’t want a kidney from a smoker.

    “Why are you being dishonest about the language of SB277 and the fact that it does not authorize forcible vaccination?”

    How am I being dishonest? Here is what I said, “Oh, only language that you must be vaccinated to attend school.” Does SB277 state that you must be vaccinated to attend school? Does it? The answer is YES. So please specify how I am being dishonest?

    “To save money by doing so, where the cost of settling a claim will be less than the legal costs requirely to actively defend against.”
    Your assumptions. They are not liable remember? You can’t sue them.

    “Unless doing so will cost them less than defending against the claim. (“Economics–how does it effing work?!”)”

    More assumptions.

    “This isn’t true: again, no one is denying that there are known adverse events associated with vaccination: “
    Yes, it is true, read all of the cases and what the Respondent’s say in them.

    “It would depend, doesn’t it? If the injury was due to a manufacturing defect the companies are directly accountable; if the injury respresents a table injury and is not a function of a manufacturing defect it would be the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program.”
    No amount of money makes up life. It’s all just black and white to you. People are just numbers, just pay them some money.

    “You’re sepaking as if civl suits were the only means by which pharmaceutical companies may be held accountable–surely you realize that this is not the case, and that there are state and federal agencies (like the FDA) tasked with doing little else?”
    Really, when is the last time the FDA went after vaccine makers?

    “Ed, your evidence that at levels of exposure acheivable by routine vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful would be-what, exactly? Be specific.”

    The amount of vaccines given over many years add up to lots and lots of harmful toxins.
    I wouldn’t expect a smoker to think that vaccines have anything harmful in them. Are you going to deny that smoking is bad for you as well?

    Like

  159. Lawrence
    May 4, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    @Ed – well, the FDA / CDC were part of the recall / replacement of the original Rotavirus vaccine, plus they had the DTP vaccine pulled from the market, and for good measure, they were also involved in pulling the first Lyme vaccine as well.

    So yes, the FDA / CDC have been involved in numerous product recalls, plus all of the vaccines that never made it to market because of the rigorous approval process, coupled with the multiple upon multiple investigations every time there is a suspected issue with a vaccine.

    As to “toxins” – one of the last refuges of the anti-vaxer that doesn’t understand dosage, human biology, or basic chemistry.

    Like

  160. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 1:10 am

    Lawrence, Have you ever heard the expression, “you are what you eat?” There is a lot of truth in that statement.

    So am I to believe that nothing is poisonous if taken in small enough doses? Is this what you are claiming?

    Like

  161. novalox
    May 5, 2015 at 1:16 am

    @ed

    Have you ever heard of the phrase “the dose is the poison.”?
    Because you do know water, oxygen, and salt are poisonous after all in large enough doses.

    Or are you one of those people who are a breathatarian, who refuses to eat are drink anything, since you seem so avid in avoiding “toxins”?

    Like

  162. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 5:42 am

    @Ed – just because you can’t pronounce the chemical name of something, doesn’t mean that it is a “toxin.” Just using that term the way you do, reveals your lack of basic scientific education & reliance on anti-vax websites for the majority, if not all, of your information.

    And yes, with very few exceptions – most substances that we would be considered “dangerous” aren’t harmful if the dose is small enough….and substances that we would not considered dangerous, like water, are lethal if the dose is large enough.

    Like

  163. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 10:55 am

    “I already stated I don’t want a kidney from a smoker.”
    What makes you think I’m a smoker?

    “So please specify how I am being dishonest?
    By continuing to assert that SB277 mandates forcible medical procedures (i.e., vaccination) when it does not.

    “Your assumptions. They are not liable remember? You can’t sue them.”
    I stand corrected: the respondents in the court rulings you’ve linked to aren’t settling the cases because it’s economically less costly to do so rather than defend against the suit despite the fact that the injuries claimed have not been shown to be caused by vaccination: the rulings all were pursued through the NVICP, which instead paid compensation because the injuries claimed qualify as table injuries, and where again where no demonstration nor judgment that the vaccines caused the injuries claimed was made.

    “Yes, it is true, read all of the cases and what the Respondent’s say in them.”
    I have a reperesentative sampling: no where did the respondents claim no adverse events are associated with vaccination: they are instead rejecting speicifc plaintiff’s claims that vaccination caused the specific injuries they’re seeking compensation for.

    If you can identify a case on your list where the repsondent’s have claimed (as you insist they have) that vaccines never, ever cause any adverse e4vents at all I’ll be interested in reading it. Can you?

    “No amount of money makes up life.”
    You didn’t ask me if money makes up a life, however: you asked me who is held accountable when a vaccine injury occurs.

    “It’s all just black and white to you. People are just numbers, just pay them some money.”
    Please provide a direct quote where I have said anything remotely like this.

    “Really, when is the last time the FDA went after vaccine makers?”
    I see Lawrence has responded to this question above.

    “The amount of vaccines given over many years add up to lots and lots of harmful toxins.”
    Non-responsive: I’ll repeat the question: what evidence indicates that at levels of exposure achievable by routine vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful?

    “wouldn’t expect a smoker to think that vaccines have anything harmful in them.”
    Again: what makes you think I now or ever have smoked?

    “Are you going to deny that smoking is bad for you as well?”
    Of course not—there is a substantial body of evidence demonstrating that smoking is causally associated with increased risk of a number of injuries and illnesses (you know, the kind of evidence that’s completely lacking with respect to a casual association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders or other neurodevelopmental disorders.)

    “So am I to believe that nothing is poisonous if taken in small enough doses? Is this what you are claiming?”
    That is in fact what all the evidence shows—how small ‘small enough’ is will vary, of course, and the converse is that pretty much everything causes toxicity at sufficiently high dosage (google ‘water intoxication’ sometime).

    But even if that isn’t true—if there did exist some molecules that are toxic at the lowest possible does achievable, that isn’t the question. The question is whether there is evidence indicating any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic at doses achievable by routine vaccination.

    So–got any?

    Like

  164. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 11:29 am

    jgc, why are you lying about being a smoker? You either lied when you said you were an “occasional” smoker or you are lying now.

    Like

  165. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 11:33 am

    Lawrence, “And yes, with very few exceptions – most substances that we would be considered “dangerous” aren’t harmful if the dose is small enough.”

    I disagree, and especially with the amount of vaccines these young kids are supposed to get now.

    Why don’t you fill up a syringe with gasoline and take it a few times of year and we’ll see what happens.

    Like

  166. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 11:36 am

    novalox. “Have you ever heard of the phrase “the dose is the poison.”?
    Because you do know water, oxygen, and salt are poisonous after all in large enough doses.”

    And how much water would it take to be harmful? Now, how much thimerosal, aluminum, and formaldehyde, would it take to be harmful in your opinion?

    Like

  167. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    A recent study done in Ontario, Canada, established that vaccination actually leads to an emergency room visit for 1 in 168 children following their 12-month vaccination appointment and for 1 in 730 children following their 18-month vaccination appointment.

    When the risk of an adverse event requiring an ER visit after well-baby vaccinations is demonstrably so high, vaccination must remain a choice for parents.

    Like

  168. Chris
    May 5, 2015 at 12:19 pm

    Thor, until you post the PMID of that study, we will assume it does not exist or if it does you have misrepresented what it said.

    Oh, Mr. Kasmer, your scientific acumen is possibly homeopathic.

    Like

  169. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    @Ed – you really have swallowed the anti-vax message, hook, line & sinker….

    And I don’t need to have an “opinion” as to how much of those particular ingredients are needed to be harmful, because we know – we know because they have been studied for decades…and in the instance of formaldehyde, a baby (or you) have more of it circulating in your blood stream at any given time – created as part of your normal metabolic processes, than it in all vaccines that a person would ever receive, combined.

    Thimerasol isn’t in any vaccines on the US Pediatric Schedule (and hasn’t been for over a decade) and isn’t in any vaccines recommended for Pregnant women either.

    And Aluminum Salts aren’t elemental aluminum (again, a child would receive a larger dose of aluminum from a scratched knee than is contained in vaccines – they also receive more aluminum in breast milk or formula, over a longer period of time, than any aluminum salts contained in vaccines).

    Sorry, if you’re going to go down the road of “toxins” you really should research first before playing that particular card….because the facts just don’t agree with you & they never had.

    Like

  170. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    Ed, I have never said that I’m an occaisonal smoker. If you believe otherwise, please identify the time and date of my post in which I make this admission.

    Like

  171. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 12:56 pm

    “I disagree, and especially with the amount of vaccines these young kids are supposed to get now.”

    Why, in the absence of any evidence that “the amount of vaccines these young kids are supposed to get now” is harmful?

    Like

  172. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    @JGC – not only in the absence of evidence, but in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary…..

    Such as:

    https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    And

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079.abstract

    Like

  173. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    Lawrence, “@Ed – you really have swallowed the anti-vax message, hook, line & sinker….”

    I didn’t swallow anything Lawrence. My daughter had a severe reaction to a vaccine.

    And I didn’t ask your opinion. But since you want to give it anyway, please tell me at what point do vaccine ingredients become poisonous? You do know right? You claim small doses are no big deal so you must know where the threshold is before they come toxic right?

    Also, thimerosal is still in some vaccines. So you claim no children ever get vaccines with thimerosal in them?

    Like

  174. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Chris, so you have the study?

    Like

  175. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    jgc, there is not an absence of evidence in the dangers of vaccines. There is plenty of evidence and I am sure you have seen it all.

    Like

  176. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    @Thor – are you Ed? Sock-puppets are frowned upon here.

    And yes, I don’t have to give an “opinion” on the toxic level of these substances, because it has been known what they are for decades…….

    And here is a list – please point out to us which vaccines still contain thimerosal that are on the US Pediatric schedule (and available in the US):

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

    Like

  177. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    @Thor – we’ve certainly seen all of the bad and junk science that anti-vaxers throw out….and none of it stands up to any scrutiny at all.

    And if your daughter had a vaccine reaction, did you report it to VAERS? And it was severe enough, did you file a suit in Vaccine Court?

    Like

  178. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    Hi Lawrence

    I am not Ed. I was confused and thought you were speaking to me. Sorry about that.

    I believe children still get the flu vaccine with thimerosal.

    Not reported to VAERS as we were told what she went through was normal and it couldn’t possibly be the vaccine.

    Like

  179. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    @Thor – thank you for clarifying.

    You would be mistaken – children do not get the Flu vaccine that contains thimerosal (per the FDA list that I provided). And the nasal version of the vaccine, which is what most children get anyway, never had it to begin with.

    You also don’t need to rely on your doctor to report a reaction – anyone can make a VAERS report, just as anyone can file suit with the NVICP.

    Like

  180. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    “There is plenty of evidence and I am sure you have seen it all.”

    No, Thor: I haven’t. if you could provide citations to the peer-reviewed journal articles where that evidence is presented, however, I’d certainly wish to consider it.

    Like

  181. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 2:34 pm

    Which ingredient are we talking about, Ed? LD50’s and ADI for different molecules vary.
    I suspect you’re concerned about things like aluminum and formaldehyde (since no vaccine on the recommended childhood schedule is available only in formulations containing thimerosal as a preservative). :

    Re:aluminum : aluminum is one of the most ubiquitous elements on the planet and infants are exposed daily to much, much greater amounts of aluminum from dietary and environmental sources than they could possibly receive as the result of immunization. To put it in perspective, over the first 6 months of life an infant could be exposed to a maximum of 2.5 mg of aluminum as the result of routine immunizations. During those same 6 months it would be exposed to 10 mgs of aluminum if it’s breast feeding; if receiving formula instead we’re talking about a 40 mgs of aluminum, and as much as 120 mgs if it’s receiving a soy-based formula.

    RE: formaldehyde: the theoretical maximum exposure to formaldehyde from immunization would be at the scheduled 6 month visit, when the child could potentially receive up to 4 immunizations (HepB, DTaP, IPV and possibly influenza). This would expose them to around 310 ug of formaldehyde. That’s less formaldehyde than you’re exposed to simply as part of a normal diet (10,000 to 20,000 ug/daily) and in fact less than you’ll receive when by eating a single apple (between 430 and 1100 ug formaldehyde). (Of course, there’s also the little fact that your body maunfactures and metabolizes far, far more formaldehyde every day through essential biochemical pathways (such as methylation reactions for and biosynthesis of some proteins and nucleic acids) than even the most aggressive vaccination schedule imaginable could acheive.)

    Like

  182. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 2:48 pm

    “Now, how much thimerosal, aluminum, and formaldehyde, would it take to be harmful in your opinion?”

    Not a matter of opinion. I’ve addressed aluminum and formaldehyde above. For thimerosal, we’re talking in excess of 20 milligrams thimerosal/kg per body weight (see http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228 )

    When used as a preservative in multi-dose vaccine vials thimerosal is present at concentration of 5 uM (25 ug in a 0.5 mL dose volume): 4000 fold lower. Additionally, after innoculation the thimerosal will be further diluted by the entire blood volume of the recipient.

    The ‘worst case scenario’ would be in newborn’s, whose blood volume is typically 85 mL/kg bodyweight. An 8 pound baby would have a blood volume of about 300 mL, so we’d be talking about an additional 600-fold dilution to a final circulating concentration of 8.3 nM–roughly 24,000 times lower than the exposure where toxic effects have been seen.

    Like

  183. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Lawrence

    In my area they ran out of mercury-free flu vaccines this past year and ended up giving kids the FluLaval brand which does contain mercury.

    Like

  184. Chris
    May 5, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    Thor: “Chris, so you have the study?”

    What study? You have not posted any evidence the study you mentioned even exists.

    Like

  185. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    The study Thor is referring to is Kumanan’s “Adverse Events following 12 and 18 Month Vaccinations: a Population-Based, Self-Controlled Case Series Analysis”, 2011. He does not appear to have actually read it, since he missed the authors’ conclusions:

    “Our analysis demonstrated that the 12 and 18 month vaccinations are not associated with an increase in adverse events immediately following vaccination. Instead it showed a reduced risk in this period, which is likely a result of the previously documented healthy vaccinee effect [9], [13], [14]. We identified an increase in events occurring between 4 and 12 days post-vaccination for the 12 month and, to a lesser extent and for a shorter time period for the 18 month vaccines. The majority of these events represented ER visits and at their peak, on day 9 following the 12 month vaccine, were approximately twice the baseline rate. Although there was an increase in hospital admission in each period, none of these increases were statistically significant. the increase in event rate following the 12 month vaccines accounted for approximately 598 extra children experiencing one or more ER visits during the risk interval per 100,000 vaccinations. The average acuity of patients presenting to the emergency room was similar to that in the control period. The conditions for which there were the largest increase in risk for presentation to the emergency room during the risk interval compared to the control interval following the 12 month vaccine were febrile convulsions, fever and viral exanthema, consistent with the known adverse event profile of MMR and varicella vaccines. There were 20 additional febrile seizures for every 100,000 children vaccinated at 12 months.”

    Theauthors go on to state:

    “Given the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine in eliminating both measles and rubella, and the highly infectious nature of these diseases, high vaccination coverage is essential. The diseases that the vaccines are preventing are not benign and vaccination can eliminate many of the serious sequelae of these infections.”

    Note that nothing in this paper can possibly be construed as supporting the existence of a causal association between MMR vaccination and autism spectrum or other neurodevelopmental disorders

    Like

  186. Wendy
    May 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm

    Studies that dispute the link between vaccines and autism use statistical “tricks” that are used to remove association.

    – Hiding some data
    – Not discussing obvious results and focusing on areas where impact is not seen
    – Comparing unrelated items to make invalid conclusions

    Like

  187. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 4:13 pm

    @Wendy – you really don’t have a clue as to how statistics work, do you?

    Like

  188. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    Note that Kumanan’s finding of a possible 20 additional febrile seizures per 100,000 vaccinated children works out to an additional 2 siezures per 10,000 children vaccinated.

    Measles itself causes 60 to 70 febrile siezure per 10,000 children infected.

    Like

  189. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    Conclusion “There are significantly elevated risks of primarily emergency room visits approximately one to two weeks following 12 and 18 month vaccination. Future studies should examine whether these events could be predicted or prevented.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22174753

    Like

  190. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    Wendy, can you provide citations to the specific studies you’re talking about which you beleive have used these statistical tricks, hidden data, etc. to conceal a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders?

    I mean, you did have specific studies in mind–right? Your argument does consist of something more than “Those scientists–we all KNOW what they’re like!”?

    Like

  191. Wendy
    May 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm

    @jgc56

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2275444

    1 – Dr. William Thompson of the CDC revealed that the age of the MMR had a large impact. The impact is before 36 months of age. In this study they look at well before (age 2) and well after (age 5). This could mask the problem, especially since you would be looking for a small population size, less than 1% of the total children.

    2 – In the initial discussion they reveal that 2% of children had an older sibling with ASD, but only 1% of these children had ASD themselves. This states that the risk of autism in a younger sibling is cut in 1/2. This is extremely significant and brings the question of, what was different with these kids, how did they cut the autism rate in HALF. There is no way these doctors did not notice this. They made it the first sentence of the results, yet the wording is such that it is not obvious on the first reading.

    The study then reveals that the MMR vaccine rates were lower and more delayed for the children with siblings with autism. This scream that there is a significant relationship between the two. So how did the study not see it and why did they not discuss this?

    3- When they go to look at risk of the MMR they compare against the total population, this has the effect of diluting the connection. The previous findings should have had them compare the MMR rates for children with older siblings with ASD (994) that;

    – had ASD (134)
    – did not have ASD (860)

    By doing this you can already tell you there is a statistically significant relationship. Unfortunately the full data set would be needed to prove this and getting that may be difficult.

    This is not to say the paper is not true, it just does not tell the whole story and is misleading. A more accurate conclusion should be. For the population of children that are at risk of autism there is a statistically significant risk of autism.

    Like

  192. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 4:25 pm

    @Thor – perhaps you should read the actual study & not just the abstract, because it doesn’t say what you think it says.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3236196/

    Like

  193. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 4:25 pm

    Exactly Thor: Kumanan’s calls for additonal study, with the goal of improving medical management of a known but transient adverse event associated with vaccination.

    It does not however suggest that vaccines cause autism or other disorders, or that the risks associated with MMR vaccine exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to measles infection, and Kumanan explicitly notes the importance of maintaining high vaccination coverage.

    Like

  194. Lawrence
    May 5, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    @Wendy –

    Conclusions and Relevance: In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.

    Like

  195. Lawrence
  196. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    Hmmm…..this was taken word for word fright from the conclusion, “There are significantly elevated risks of primarily emergency room visits approximately one to two weeks following 12 and 18 month vaccination. Future studies should examine whether these events could be predicted or prevented.”

    Vaccination must remain a choice for parents.

    Like

  197. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    jgc, do you or do you not occasionally smoke? Here’s your chance to start fresh.

    Like

  198. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 4:44 pm

    Thor, are you the guy from the caos2424?

    Like

  199. Thor
    May 5, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    Ed

    Yes I am part of caos. Apparently we know each other? You must be Cheryl’s husband with the name of Kasmer?

    Like

  200. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 5:01 pm

    No, Wendy: Dr. Thompson did not. Brian Hooker claimed that he revealed it an d Hooker further claimed the evidence supported this, but in both cases he was wrong (Hooker’s paper was in fact very rapidly retracted).

    “In the initial discussion they reveal that 2% of children had an older sibling with ASD, but only 1% of these children had ASD themselves. This states that the risk of autism in a younger sibling is cut in 1/2.”
    You seem to be assuming that older and younger siblings must have an identical risk of developing an ASD–why? Nothing in the text of the JAMA article suggests this.

    “This scream that there is a significant relationship between the two.”
    The paper instead foundthat there was no relationship between the two (“MMR vaccine receipt was not associated with an increased risk of ASD at any age. “)

    “So how did the study not see it and why did they not discuss this?”
    Because what you think the study should have seen and discussed simply isn’t there. There is no reason to presume older and younger siblings should have identical likelihood of developing an ASD, the data did not show a significant relationship between vaccination and ASD’s, etc.

    “When they go to look at risk of the MMR they compare against the total population, this has the effect of diluting the connection.”
    No: it instead normalizes the incidence of autism in siblings to that seen in the general (i.e., not biologically related) population.

    Like

  201. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 5:03 pm

    I’ve no need to start fresh, Ed. Please identify the time and date of the post in which you was me state I occaisonally smoke.

    Or, of course, you can simply admit you make things up in your posts.

    Like

  202. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm

    I can’t name the time and date, but you did state it.
    Why can’t you just answer the question and say that I am wrong?
    If you don’t I will take your silence as you do indeed smoke.

    Like

  203. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 5:20 pm

    “Vaccination must remain a choice for parents.”

    As SB277 will do nothing to prevent it from remaining a choice for parents, Thor, one must ask: what’s your point?

    Like

  204. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    “Why can’t you just answer the question and say that I am wrong?”

    Because I’m waiting for your explicit admission that your post of May 5, 2015 at 11:29 am was a total fabrication on your part.

    Like

  205. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    Yes Thor!! Small world! I hope your daughter is well!! O is doing well!

    Like

  206. Ed Kasmer
    May 5, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    I’ll just assume you are a smoker.

    Like

  207. jgc56
    May 5, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    And by doing you demonstrate you lack the inteelectual integrity to admit when you’ve made an error.

    Like

  208. novalox
    May 5, 2015 at 5:56 pm

    @jgc56

    Well, what else would you expect from an anti-vax liar? Integrity isn’t one of their strong points.

    @ed

    Considering that your questions have been answered, yet you still harp on about “toxins” and danger, I have to wonder why are you still posting on a computer or other device. After all, there is always the risk of you getting an electrical shock from using such devices, so that means that they must be unnecessarily dangerous for you to use, right? That means you shouldn’t be posting at all, since it is such a risk, right?

    Like

  209. Ed Kasmer
    May 6, 2015 at 1:01 am

    “And by doing you demonstrate you lack the inteelectual integrity to admit when you’ve made an error.”

    I already said I would admit that I made an error if you told me you weren’t a smoker. But you are stubborn and you didn’t do it, you never told me otherwise.

    Don’t know why you have to act like a child and cause all this drama about it. All you had to do was tell me you weren’t a smoker but for some reason people here like to play games instead.

    Like

  210. Lawrence
    May 6, 2015 at 5:38 am

    I’m just going to leave this here, for the likes of Wendy:

    http://www.sciencearchive.org.au/policy/documents/AAS_FINAL_LR_Nov26.pdf

    Like

  211. jgc56
    May 6, 2015 at 10:39 am

    I think your behavior re: whether or not I’m an occaisonal smoker is instructive, Ed, which is why I’m not particularly interested in ‘starting fresh’ and letting the matter drop.

    With resepct to whether or not i smoke you insist I made such an admission (“I can’t name the time and date, but you did state it.”) but can’t provide evidence I did so.

    You claim SB277 mandates forcible medical procedures, but can point to no language in the text of the bill doing so.

    You calim that measles outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations but cannot provide evidence this is the case (instead, you offer evidence that the DTaP vaccine’s protection against pertussis infection diminishes over time, such that pertussis outbreaks can occur in previously vaccinated populations).

    You claim the “putting all of those vaccine ingredients into your body” is “slow poisoning and slow;y making you sick” but again provide no evidence this is the case.

    Your behavior re: both the question of my smoking and the safety and efficacy of vaccines distills down to a common denominator: While you are frequently wrong you are never uncertain.

    Like

  212. JD Johnny
    May 8, 2015 at 7:47 pm

    California State Law that was enacted in 1874 states that children between the ages of 6-18 must attend school.

    SB277 states that children attending school must be vaccinated.

    Therefore, it will be mandatory to be vaccinated to go to school.

    Like

  213. jgc56
    May 9, 2015 at 12:17 am

    ‘Therefore, it will be mandatory to be vaccinated to go to school”

    Not true, as un-vaccinated children who qualify for medical exemptions will remain eligible for enrollment in public schools while parents may elect to home school un-vaccinated children who do not qualify for medical exemptions rather than enroll them in public schools.

    Like

  214. JD Johnny
    May 9, 2015 at 1:30 am

    And for the child that does not qualify for a medical exemption and the single Mom that works and cannot homeschool?

    Like

  215. jgc56
    May 9, 2015 at 10:50 am

    She may not find either of her available choices attractive–your point? Surely you’re not arguing a choice not to vaccinate (which places both the un-vaccinated child and other children they will come in contact with at school at increased risk of infection) in the absence of a valid medical condition a child is not be an appropriate candidate for vaccination should be free of consequence?

    Like

  216. Chris
    May 9, 2015 at 11:48 am

    ” single Mom that works and cannot homeschool?”

    That does not describe the more common scenario of those who oppose public health policies.

    Like

  217. Lawrence
    May 9, 2015 at 4:56 pm

    In fact, a woman in that position would be the most likely to have already vaccinated her kids….

    Liked by 1 person

  218. AutismMom
    May 10, 2015 at 5:29 pm

    Actually, that describes my situation perfectly. I am a single Mom and do not vaccinate my kids. There is no way I could quit my job to home school. I guess I am lucky I don’t live in California. I don’t believe jgc65 understands what it means to be a single parent that has to provide for their family.

    Like

  219. May 10, 2015 at 5:41 pm

    I can imagine how difficult it would be to have to stay home with your kids for three weeks at a time if there was an outbreak……better to vaccinate.

    Like

  220. Chris
    May 10, 2015 at 6:34 pm

    I remember when my kids were little a couple of the local hospital had special “sick kid daycare” so working parents did not have to miss work. Except they were very expensive. Some employers did cover the costs.

    I tried to find if they still exist, but they don’t. They disappeared over the past twenty years. I wonder why?

    Like

  221. jgc56
    May 11, 2015 at 12:01 pm

    “I don’t believe jgc65 understands what it means to be a single parent that has to provide for their family.”

    I’m not a single parent, but I am the sole breadwinner fin a two-parent family with more than one child, which includes one or more children with significant special needs. I do understand what it means to be responsibility for providing for your family while possessing limited resources to do so.

    And it is true that sometimes one will find oneself in situations where it’s necessary to elect the least-onerous of the choices available to you.

    But even when viewed from that perspective SB277 does not somehow become something which mandates forcible vaccination, nor does that understanding argue that choice should not be associated with consequence.

    And quite frankly I’d be overjoyed if all my choices were as clear cut as vaccinating or not vaccianting (i.e., if I always had as one of the choices available to me doing something which would demonstrably provided direct benefits, and reduced risk).

    Like

  222. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    Hi everyone, I was thinking about you all debating whose right and wrong but the truth of the matter is right now there are two babies that just died from vaccination in Mexico and couple dozens under watch from side effects. I thought the vaccines were safe and effective? Please explain that to the parents that lost the babies.

    Like

  223. Lawrence
    May 11, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    @soubanh – why are you jumping to conclusions? The facts aren’t in yet – let’s see what actually occurred.

    Like

  224. jgc56
    May 11, 2015 at 5:15 pm

    Soubanh, it hasn’t been established that the deaths were caused by the vaccines, only that they occurred after vaccines had been given: the Mexican Institute for Social Security states that the cause of the adverse reactions is not known, and investigationa re continuing.

    You’re leaping to the same conclusion in the same absence evidence demosntrating causality that Pam Powers leapt to in December of last year with respect to the deaths of seniors in an Italian assisted living center following receipt of seasonal flu vaccine.

    Like

  225. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 5:49 pm

    @Lawrence & Jgc56-I can respond to your comment several ways but I’ll be nice and just say now you know how no vax parents feel. Any outbreak (DISNEY )right away no vax are to blamed and so the whole world believe is because of no vax people when in all truth half of the reported were vaccinated. My point? Even lies tell enough time will become someone’s truth (but is still a lie).

    Like

  226. Chris
    May 11, 2015 at 6:11 pm

    “all truth half of the reported were vaccinated. ”

    Citation needed. Also include the following ratios:

    “unvaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of unvaccinated in population”

    “vaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of vaccinated in population”

    What is the higher ratio?

    Like

  227. Lawrence
    May 11, 2015 at 7:18 pm

    @soubanh – for someone so interested in the “truth” you really have a bad habit of jumping to conclusions…..in the case of Disney, it was evident, very early on, that it was the unvaccinated (or under-vaccinated) that were at highest risk & were the ones who were predominantly being infected (and spreading the disease).

    In the current case, all we have are the initial reports & notice that the proper authorities are investigating….I would think that you’d want to wait until such time as there is official notification of what happened….but I guess you’re not so interested in the truth after all.

    Like

  228. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    @Chris and Lawrence – Chris your a big girl you tell me the actual numbers that were vaccinated or under vaccinated as Lawrence mentioned that caused the outbreak. Personally,I don’t need the numbers. I can read between the headlines and that is if it was really the only unvax that cause the Disney(or any outbreak for that matter ) outbreak as they like everyone to believe, we still be hearing about it. But guess what? It wasn’t and you know it and I know it. As for the the death in Mexico due to bad vaccines,trust me your not going to hear the truth(surprise here). You’ll hear some lame excuse but never the vaccines negative reactions. Lawrence, as far as truth goes I’m very good at reading through propaganda and lies so I don’t need to wait for the cdc and the big pharma to give me their findings And why you asked? Look at their track records.

    Like

  229. Lawrence
    May 11, 2015 at 7:47 pm

    @soubanh – I’d recommend that you read “The Great Derangement” by Matt Tabibi, I bet it would resonate with you.

    As to everything else, since you obviously rely on no facts, no evidence or nothing else, for that matter, besides your own beliefs, we’re done having a conversation here.

    Like

  230. Chris
    May 11, 2015 at 8:10 pm

    soubanh, what are those ratios? Those numbers are meaningless unless you know the percentage of each population.

    Like

  231. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    Chris, is a basic common sense reading to me. And to proof it, you can’t come up with the numbers yourself. You can ask for ratios and stats and pubmed. ect…. as far as the Disney outbreak is concern,the numbers just don’t add up. I don’t care if the information is coming from Naturalnews, Mercola, CDC’s, WHO. My point is the no vax, got the blame right off the bat. But no evidence, what so ever and to this day. I like your feed back on this please Chris and since you like citation and references you can refer me to them that proof is the no vax faults. Thanks

    Like

  232. Chris
    May 11, 2015 at 8:50 pm

    “as far as the Disney outbreak is concern,the numbers just don’t add up.”

    Prove it. Provide those ratios.

    Like

  233. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    Chris, you’re missing the point again. The point is both sides have their numbers or ratios so I’m left with using my brain and deduction reasoning which say if the outbreak was really due to the no vax people as you have bought to believe but all the best information the CDC come with is they “believe someone from outside the country brought it over”. Never, I repeat NEVER once the CDC said is the unvax that cause the outbreak. You know why? cause they can’t proof it. Now unless you can please go ahead.

    Like

  234. jgc56
    May 11, 2015 at 10:20 pm

    Actualy, soubanh: of the 169 people in 20 states who were infected before the Disneyland outbreak was contained the majority of were unvaccinated. See http://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

    “As for the the death in Mexico due to bad vaccines,trust me your not going to hear the truth(surprise here).”

    Soubanh, the Mexican Institute for Social Security (the publi health agency that is investigating the deaths) hasn’t determined that the deaths were due to bad vaccines: what evidence do you have in your possession that they do not, allowing you state that this was the case?

    “as far as the Disney outbreak is concern,the numbers just don’t add up”

    How exactly do they fail to add up? Show your math.

    Like

  235. soubanh
    May 11, 2015 at 11:04 pm

    jgc56, thanks to the cdc link which supports my argument that is NOT the unvax that is causing the outbreak(s) as provax like to assumed. If you study the writing, you’ll notice the cdc is smart enough to just generalized their point using word such as “likely” or do to people from outside the US bringing in the Measles(for all we know that person was fully vaccinated)..but never once the CDC single out an unvax person cause they know better. As I propose don’t believe everything you read but read past the headlines. If you can find me reliable independent study that shows the Disney outbreak was solely due to unvax people i will shut up and apologize to you and the rest of the provax here. As for the Mexican death and trouble, we can wait per your suggestion.

    Like

  236. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 12:35 am

    The CDC link doesn’t support your argument, however: it notes that the majority of those infected are unvaxed rather than vaxed, despite vaccinated individuals greatly outnumbering the unvaccinated individuals in the population.

    By what rational argument can that be construed as evidence that it’s not unvaccinated individuals who are at greatest risk of infection and consequently at greatest risk of serving as vectors of additional infections?

    Like

  237. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 2:29 am

    @JGC56
    I believe the question was who started the outbreak in Disney Land? Did they trace it to an un-vaccinated person or a vaccinated person?

    Also, what percentage of the infected were children? I read that it was only 15% to 20%.

    Like

  238. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:50 am

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6414a1.htm

    Approximately 45% were children.

    The majority of the 159 patients with reported measles in the 2015 outbreaks were either unvaccinated (71 [45%]) or had unknown vaccination status (60 [38%]); 28 (18%) had received measles vaccine. Among the 68 U.S. residents who had measles and were unvaccinated, 29 (43%) cited philosophical or religious objections to vaccination, 27 (40%) were ineligible because they were too young to receive vaccination (26 patients) or had a medical contraindication (one), three (4%) represented missed opportunities for vaccination, and nine (13%) had other reasons for not being vaccinated (Figure 2).

    Like

  239. soubanh
    May 12, 2015 at 7:55 am

    Welcome back Lawrence, I will actually go with the numbers you cited but with a different interpretation reading right through the percentages given. I know base on the wording(unknown vacc status),the results have room for errors but for the sake of discussion. I said it before and I will say it again, most people (like 100 percent) that believe in vaccines think by getting the shot(s) think they are “Safe” and protected. And therefore, neglect the important of nutrition,exercise and good sleep or worse, they don’t even think these activities contribute to good health. My point? I wouldn’t be bragging about how good and effective vaccines are with the outcome(results) cited here. Would you go to a mechanic that only have a 50 percent success rate? or a dentist with a 60percent success rate? and etc…. NO, you find the best or at least consider other options and this is what no vax parents are doing and asking and looking.

    Like

  240. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 9:25 am

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

    Like

  241. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 9:42 am
  242. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 10:55 am

    That wasn’t the original question, Aussie: Soubanh’s post read “Any outbreak (DISNEY )right away no vax are to blamed”, not Any outbreak (DISNEY )right away no vax are accused of being the index case”, if you’ll remember.

    It’s unvacinated individuals (regardless of whether they are children or adults) who compromise effective herd immunity that allow outbreaks such as the Disneyland outbreak to occur (regardless of the vaccination status of the index case). There’s a good discussion of this at http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/03/18/3635358/disneyland-vaccine-study/

    Like

  243. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 11:08 am

    “And therefore, neglect the important of nutrition,exercise and good sleep or worse, they don’t even think these activities contribute to good health.”

    Nutrition, exercise and good sleep are all ineffective at preventing infection if one is exposed to mealse, however: it’s highly contagious even in populations of healthy individuals. Recall that in c. 1850 a measles outbreak killed almost a third of the indigenous population of the Hawaiin islands-despite their being well nourished, well-rested, and physically active.

    “Would you go to a mechanic that only have a 50 percent success rate? or a dentist with a 60percent success rate?”

    The success rate of the MMR vaccine, however, is much, much greater than 50 or 60%: 90% of all those who receive both scheduled innoculations are seen to develop protective antibody titers.

    Like

  244. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    @JGC56
    ‘Indexed case’ and ‘blamed’ are the same thing. One assumes if an unvaxed person is blamed they must be the indexed case or vice versa.
    Here’s a better question, is there any proof an unvaxed person is to blame for the Disney outbreak? Or do they just assume it is??

    2nd question: How many of the Disney cases were children? I read it was only 15% to 20%.

    Like

  245. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 12:10 pm

    @JGC56

    ‘Nutrition, exercise and good sleep are all ineffective at preventing infection if one is exposed to mealse’

    Where did you get this information?

    The better and stronger your immune system is the better chance it has of fighting off infections. As far as I know, sleep, good nutrition, exercise, etc. are all good for you and will help you fight off infections.

    Please provide your evidence stating that these things don’t help. I am very interested.

    Like

  246. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    “‘Indexed case’ and ‘blamed’ are the same thing. One assumes if an unvaxed person is blamed they must be the indexed case or vice versa.”

    Perhaps you’re assuming this: I’m making no such assumption, and the facts of the situation demonstrate otherwise. If compliance with MMR vaccination had been at the level necessary to maintain herd immunity (~95%) there would not have been an outbreak involving 169 people in 20 states, regardles of whether the index case was vaccinated or unvaccinated.

    “Here’s a better question, is there any proof an unvaxed person is to blame for the Disney outbreak? Or do they just assume it is??”

    They’re doing neither: the index case is unidentified and their vaccination status undetermined.

    “2nd question: How many of the Disney cases were children? I read it was only 15% to 20%.”

    Lawrence has indicated that 41% of thopse infected in this outbreak were children in a post above. May i ask why you believe the age of those infected in the outbreak is a relevant question?

    Like

  247. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 12:17 pm

    Sorry–approximately 45% were children according to Lawrence’s source.

    Like

  248. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 12:36 pm

    “Where did you get this information?”
    It’s what has been documented with regard to the decline in the incidence of infectious diseases over time. As I pointed out, indigenous Hawaiin’s in 1848 were living exactly the kind of lifestyle that Soubanh claims will effectively prevent infection—fresh produce, physical exercise, good sleep habits—yet the outbreak killed almost a third of their population. Are we really to believe that fully one-third of the entire population of the Hawaiin Islands were malnourished, got insufficient exercise, and slept poorly?

    Consider chickenpox. If good habits and nutrition alone are enough to prevent infections, chickenpox incidence would have dropped long prior to the introduction of a chicken pox vaccine. It wasn’t available until the mid-1990s, but before the vaccine was introduced we saw on average in the USA four million chicken pox infections a year. By 2004, following the introduction of the vaccine, annual incidence had dropped ~ 85%
    .
    Is it reasonable to conclude that a significant portion of the US population was malnourished, failing to exercise and failing to get enough sleep in the early 1990’s, such that they were vulnerable to infection, but between 1995 and 2004 we all suddenly started eating well, joining the local gym and sleeping 8 hours a night?

    “ The better and stronger your immune system is the better chance it has of fighting off infections.”
    Yes: healthier people on average will respond better to infection, once they’ve become infected, than will unhealthy people. Vaccination, however, will prevent either from acquiring an infection they ahve to respond to in the first place.

    Like

  249. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    @aussie – also, historically, it was the “young and healthy” who died in greater numbers during the 1918 Flu Pandemic, proportionally, than the very young or old, because their stronger immune systems responded to the infection with such vigor that it overloaded the lungs with mucus, and caused pneumonia.

    There are plenty of stories of young and healthy adults getting sick in the morning & being dead by late afternoon.

    And with Disney, since the most likely cause was an imported case of measles (due to the strain that was found), it is also true that it was the un & under-vaccinated that allowed the infection to spread.

    And notice, given that potentially thousands of people were exposed at Disney alone & Measles is the most contagious disease on the planet (infecting between 80 – 90% of people who do get exposed) – the fact that hundreds or thousands more weren’t infected, shows how effective the vaccine is.

    Like

  250. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    @JGC56
    As for my assumption in regards to indexed,unvaxed, and blamed, this is not my assumption, this is how the media and others like to portray it, which is what Soubanh was talking about. They blame the unvaxed without any proof it was started from an unvaxed person.

    The 45% that Lawrence claimed was for all reported cases in 2015 and not just the Disney Land cases. It’s interesting they make it all about the kids, when in actuality there are more adults infected. How many of these adults are caught up on their vaccinations? Yet these adults are not treated in the same poor way that the unvaxed kids and families are.

    I find your Hawaiian example a very poor example. For one, it was in 1848, 167 years ago. Times have changed in regards to understanding the human body and the medical health science.

    In regards to chicken pox the difference is that in my days in the 80’s when one person in the neighborhood got ck pox, all of the families would send there kids over so that everybody would get ck. pox to get it over with. So nobody was actually trying to avoid catching it. That may be why it spread so easily and quickly.

    Like

  251. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    And if you can state that vaccines help prevent disease (even though they are not 100% effective), then you can say the same thing about sleep, food, nutrition, exercise, string immune system etc. It all helps ‘prevent’ infection, it is not 100% effective, just like vaccines are not 100% effective

    Like

  252. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    @aussie – except the things you mentioned are almost 100% ineffective, should a person be exposed…very few people have “natural” immunity to any particular disease – and the historical records, which show that just about everyone got the measles, shows how virulent it is.

    As to Pox Parties – yes, they did happen, because everyone knew that it was riskier for an older person to get it (higher mortality rates and rates of serious complications), so purposeful exposure was the only thing parents could do.

    Of course, now we have very safe and effective vaccines – why on Earth would a parent expose their child to a potentially fatal disease (look up SSPE as a result of measles infection)?

    Like

  253. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    @Lawrence
    Please site your source showing that all of those are almost 100% ineffective. There is no ‘natural’ immunity because that was taken away by vaccines. It use to be that Mother’s would pass down to their children, but that has been taken away by vaccines.

    I have never heard of pox parties, but it would accomplish the same goal.

    Like

  254. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 1:57 pm

    @aussie – you just described a “pox party.”

    And you mean “passive immunity?” It lasts a few weeks to maybe a few months & isn’t actual immunity to any particular disease…..

    And it is up to you to show that any of those things you mention “prevent” infection – because that is an extraordinary claim – especially in light of the actual information regarding vaccine-preventable diseases over the years:

    http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

    And

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all

    Once again, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.

    Like

  255. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 2:01 pm

    2015: The United States experienced a large, multi-state measles outbreak linked to an amusement park in California. The outbreak likely started from a traveler who became infected overseas with measles, then visited the amusement park while infectious; however, no source was identified. Analysis by CDC scientists showed that the measles virus type in this outbreak (B3) was identical to the virus type that caused the large measles outbreak in the Philippines in 2014.

    The majority of people who got measles were unvaccinated.
    Measles is still common in many parts of the world including some countries in Europe, Asia, the Pacific, and Africa.
    Travelers with measles continue to bring the disease into the U.S.
    Measles can spread when it reaches a community in the U.S. where groups of people are unvaccinated.

    Like

  256. Lawrence
  257. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    @JGC56
    “As for my assumption in regards to indexed,unvaxed, and blamed, this is not my assumption, this is how the media and others like to portray it, which is what Soubanh was talking about.”
    They’re wrong to do so then, aren’t they? While the index case is the start of the outbreak, they aren’t responsible for the outbreak:I t’s those who undermine herd immunity that abet unbroken series of infections.

    “They blame the unvaxed without any proof it was started from an unvaxed person.”
    Then they’re blaming the right parties, but for the wrong reason.

    “The 45% that Lawrence claimed was for all reported cases in 2015 and not just the Disney Land cases. It’s interesting they make it all about the kids, when in actuality there are more adults infected.”
    Who is making anything all about kids? Let me guess: the media and others again. Not the CDC or anyone else actively tracking outbreaks.

    “How many of these adults are caught up on their vaccinations? Yet these adults are not treated in the same poor way that the unvaxed kids and families are.”
    I don’t think anyone is treating unvaxed kids in a poor way—it’s not their fault they’re unvaccinated but that of their parents, who by electing not to vaccinate them put not only the children themselves but third parties at increased risk of infection.

    “I find your Hawaiian example a very poor example. For one, it was in 1848, 167 years ago. Times have changed in regards to understanding the human body and the medical health science.”
    Our understanding ahs improved: yes, but what we know to be nutritious was still nutritious in 1848, physical activity was physical activity and sleep was sleep. The indigenous Hawaiin’s lived exactly the type of lifestyle that alt med types , naturopaths, etc., claim effectively protects against infection—and almost one third of them died of measles.

    “In regards to chicken pox the difference is that in my days in the 80’s when one person in the neighborhood got ck pox, all of the families would send there kids over so that everybody would get ck. pox to get it over with. So nobody was actually trying to avoid catching it. That may be why it spread so easily and quickly.”
    In my day in the late 50’s/early 60’s when one person in the neighborhood caught it they were kept at home away from everyone else to the extent possible—and we still all wound up catching it by the time we’d reached our teens:it’s spread easily because it’s highly contagious.

    Like

  258. Lawrence
  259. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 2:12 pm

    “It all helps ‘prevent’ infection, it is not 100% effective, just like vaccines are not 100% effective.”

    No-they’re only 90% effective: we observe 90% of all people who receive both scheduled doses of the MMR vaccine to develop protective antibody titers against measles infection.

    Exactly how much sleep do we all need to achieve 90% protection against measles infection in the absence of vacciantion?

    Like

  260. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    “There is no ‘natural’ immunity because that was taken away by vaccines.”

    Citation truly, madly, desparately needed: your evidence that routine childhood vaccination actually compromises immunity to infectious disease would be what, exactly? be specific.

    Like

  261. soubanh
    May 12, 2015 at 2:16 pm

    @jgc56 and maybe Lawrence- I didn’t want to assume anything but I think you need a refresh on the definition of Immune System. Here taken from Medical dictionary..

    Medical Definition of IMMUNE SYSTEM
    : the bodily system that protects the body from foreign substances, cells, and tissues by producing the immune response.
    The immune system is the body’s defense against infectious organisms and other invaders. Through a series of steps called the immune response, the immune system attacks organisms and substances that invade body systems and cause disease.

    I could be wrong but base on this definition,having a strong Immune System is vital. And for you to say is ineffective shows how little you know about the important of our Immune System and the theory behind vaccination. And just so we both are clear, stronger Immune system is not achieved by vaccination is by better nutrition,exercise and sleep.

    Like

  262. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    And it was the “healthy” and “robust” immune response to the Spanish Flu that killed the young and healthy in disproportionate numbers…..

    The best way to not suffer through a disease, is to be immune to the disease in the first place…..allowing children to suffer through vaccine-preventable diseases is tantamount to child abuse.

    Like

  263. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694.abstract

    Evidence that measles infection increases overall mortality rates for other infectious diseases by “damaging” or resetting the immune system……so much for “natural immunity” being better.

    Like

  264. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    “I didn’t want to assume anything but I think you need a refresh on the definition of Immune System.”

    Quite honestly I don’t believe I do (I don’t expect you to take my word for it, but I’m a minor author on a handful of peer-reviewed articles regarding novel immunosuppressive compounds).

    ” And for you to say is ineffective shows how little you know about the important of our Immune System and the theory behind vaccination.”

    There appears to be a word missing here–what is it you believe we’re wrong to say is ineffective? If it’s nutrition, exercise and sleep, I have to ask what evidence demonstrates any or all of these strengthen the immune system (however your’re electing to define ‘strengthen’)

    Like

  265. soubanh
    May 12, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    Lawrence, I hope you do know your comment about the Spanish flu is an assumptions right? Cause I can say the survivors of the Spanish flu were healthy and they didn’t need the vaccines that did not exist yet. And jgc56, and Lawrence just in case you forgotten history, the bacteria and viruses existed before vaccines and guess what? we survey without vaccines and will continue as I have without vaccines over 10 years.

    Like

  266. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 4:30 pm

    Tell that to the hundreds of millions of people who died from VPDs in just the 20th Century….including the 50 Million + that died of the Spanish Flu.

    Like

  267. Lawrence
  268. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 4:56 pm

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Influenza-Deadliest-Pandemic/dp/0143036491

    At the height of WWI, history’s most lethal influenza virus erupted in an army camp in Kansas, moved east with American troops, then exploded, killing as many as 100 million people worldwide. It killed more people in twenty-four months than AIDS killed in twenty-four years, more in a year than the Black Death killed in a century. But this was not the Middle Ages, and 1918 marked the first collision of science and epidemic disease. Magisterial in its breadth of perspective and depth of research and now revised to reflect the growing danger of the avian flu, The Great Influenza is ultimately a tale of triumph amid tragedy, which provides us with a precise and sobering model as we confront the epidemics looming on our own horizon. John M. Barry has written a new afterword for this edition that brings us up to speed on the terrible threat of the avian flu and suggest ways in which we might head off another flu pandemic.

    Like

  269. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 4:57 pm

    “we survey without vaccines and will continue as I have without vaccines over 10 years.”

    If I’m right and “we survey” was meant to read “we survived”, you’re ignoring all those who did not. In early 1980’s, prior the availabilty of a vaccine against it, annually there were on average 2.6 million deaths worldwide due to a single infectious disease alone (measles) .

    As for your surviving ‘without vaccines for over 10 years’, those of us who do vaccinate and maintain the herd immunity you’ve been relying on to avoid infectious disease say “Your welcome”.

    Like

  270. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:02 pm

    http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106_chp5.pdf

    History and facts…..

    http://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10524/339/JL35007.pdf?sequence=2

    There are reasons why vaccinations were (and should be) hailed as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, medical achievement of our time.

    Like

  271. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:18 pm
  272. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:21 pm

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

    And this one is extremely important to consider as well – particularly the harm of Rubella…including the recent epidemics in both Japan and Poland.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/health/rubella-epidemics-in-japan-and-poland.html?_r=0

    Like

  273. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:49 pm

    Real world case where diseases come roaring back when vaccine programs collapse….

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036527.htm

    Like

  274. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 5:54 pm
  275. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 6:03 pm

    I wonder why every example you use of people dying off is from times over 100 or 150 years ago? Did any of them have access to other health care, technology, labs, good doctors, and hospitals, like we have now?

    Like

  276. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    @aussie – really? 1990 – 1994 is a long time ago?

    Like

  277. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 6:28 pm

    The Spanish Flu (which you mention often above) was almost 100 years ago and the Hawaiian example was 167 years ago. So yes, I would say those were a long time ago and times are very different now.

    Traditionally, infants were protected by antibodies transferred from their mother in breastmilk. Only a small percentage of measles cases occurred in infants when that was happening.

    The problem is that vaccine-induced “immunity” does not behave the way natural immunity does. The majority of the measles cases in the current outbreak were in adults over 20. Those are the people who “didn’t know” their immunization status when asked, because they couldn’t remember whether or not they had gotten boosters in high school or college. What is the likelihood that most of those adults were not vaccinated as children, or even later? Pretty low, and those adults were getting the measles at a higher rate than the (unvaccinated?) children were. Despite more than 90% of the kindergarten population getting vaccinated every year for nearly 20 years, the immune status of the adult population is largely unknown. A 1984 study predicted the current situation, where a greater percentage of the adult population is not immune, despite high vaccine coverage rates, and they didn’t even take waning immunity into account.

    Like

  278. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 6:30 pm

    Please provide your citations – because I did, which conflict with your own…

    Like

  279. Robert S
    May 12, 2015 at 6:49 pm

    Vaccines are toxic, especially for children with depleted glutathione, children who take Tylenol when vaccinating, children who are sick, children on antibiotics, children with a family history of autoimmune illnesses, including asthma, and children who have difficulty detoxing through methylation.

    Like

  280. Aussie
    May 12, 2015 at 6:55 pm

    @Lawrence
    You ignored half of my questions and provided some citations that are strictly hearsay and without references.

    Like

  281. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 7:09 pm

    @aussie – no, I provided actual historical documentation, which provides to sources of information.

    I also provided scientific references that “passive” immunity is strictly transitory & does not protect infants from any diseases past a couple of months.

    The older adults who got the measles were unvaccinated, for the most part – and guess what, there were people back in the day who didn’t get their vaccines either – anti-vax isn’t a new topic out there.

    And you mention a 1984 study – care to provide it?

    Like

  282. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 7:09 pm

    @robert – no, vaccines are not “toxic.”

    Please provide your evidence.

    Like

  283. Robert S
    May 12, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    lawrence – if you deny that vaccines are toxic to children with the conditions I mentioned above, then you have no credibility and it would be a waste of time to further converse with you.

    Like

  284. Lawrence
    May 12, 2015 at 7:47 pm

    And if you have scientific evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

    Like

  285. soubanh
    May 12, 2015 at 8:33 pm

    Lawrence, you are a much smarter person than to reference Barry’s “The Great Influenza” which has no credibility what so ever. The guy is a historian author and have no medical/science understanding. See a real Virologist comment below. I’m now wondering how many of your sources and references are coming from unqualified person or organizations!

    The problems with Barry’s “The Great Influenza”

    14 August 2009

    great-influenzaWhen the 2009 H1N1 pandemic influenza virus emerged earlier this year, I began re-reading John Barry’s The Great Influenza. I came across the sentences that I had underlined during my first read identifying errors in basic virology. Because this is a very popular book, it’s important to identify the mistakes and correct them.

    Barry is not a virologist, or any type of scientist. He’s a historian who happens to have written on influenza. This does not excuse the virological errors in his book; he should have had a virologist fact-check the manuscript before publication.

    Page citations refer to the Penguin Books paperbound version.

    When a virus successfully invades a cell, it inserts its own genes into the cell’s genome, and the viral genes seize control from the cell’s own genes. [page 100]

    This sentence implies that the reproductive cycle of every virus includes integration of the genome into that of the host. Barry’s statement is incorrect; only genomes of certain viruses (e.g. retroviruses) are introduced into the host DNA. Continue link… http://www.virology.ws/2009/08/14/the-problems-with-barrys-the-great-influenza/

    Like

  286. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 9:17 pm

    Aussie, I offered the Hawaiin outbreak as a specific rebuttal to Soubanh’s suggestion that eating well, exercising and getting enough sleep is sufficient to present outbreaks of infectious disease.

    Robert, you evidence that any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of routine vaccination would be what, exactly? I mean, yo do have some–right?

    Like

  287. soubanh
    May 12, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    jgc56, I’m going to suggest you click on the links I gave to Lawrence above. Oh as a matter of fact,I suggest everyone do so and click around the different articles by real science professionals.I believe Lawrence is probably doing his due diligence right now. Here is one of the dozens of real science you won’t find about the in effective of annual influenza flu shots. Have fun
    How good is the influenza vaccine?

    3 November 2011

    influenza virusI hear from many readers that they routinely get the flu vaccine every year, yet they often contract the disease. I usually tell them that the vaccine is not perfect: it doesn’t protect everyone who gets it. Now we have the numbers to back up this statement, and they are not pretty.

    There have been 5,707 studies since 1967 on how well influenza vaccine protects against infection. Many of them did not properly assess whether individuals were infected with influenza, leading to overestimation of the protective effect of vaccines. In many studies a four-fold increase in serum hemagglutinin antibodies were used to confirm infection. Immunization also increases these antibodies, making it difficult to confirm viral infection.
    continu link http://www.virology.ws/2011/11/03/how-good-is-the-influenza-vaccine/

    Like

  288. jgc56
    May 12, 2015 at 10:28 pm

    Soubanh, prior to your last post you offered exactly two links: one to the “People’s Chemist’, and one to a critique of Barry’s “Great Influenza”. OF the two I’d characterize only Dr. Racaniello as a ‘real science professional’. I found neither to offer anything that credibly supports the premise that routine vaccination is neither safe nor effective.

    Like

  289. novalox
    May 12, 2015 at 11:15 pm

    @robert s

    [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are lying and admit as much.

    Like

  290. Chris
    May 12, 2015 at 11:25 pm

    In fact, Dr. Racaniello is a big fan of vaccination. He would only be criticizing some details of the book. He also was a big critic of the movie “Contagion.” But those criticisms are only on certain details. I even commented on his review.

    If you listen to his podcasts, you will hear some great rants about folks like Soubanh. Who has still not provided the following data from the Disney measles outbreak:

    “unvaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of unvaccinated in population”

    “vaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of vaccinated in population”

    Soubanh, where are those ratios? Which population had a higher percentage of measles cases, those who were vaccinated or those who were not?

    Like

  291. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 12:57 am

    @Chris

    The majority of the Measles cases in Disney Land were adults. Which category do you put them in? The vaccinated or unvaccinated? If you can’t answer that question then how can Soubanh give you the ratios? Especially since many of the adults with measles “didn’t know” their own immunization status’. You can’t possibly do the ratios that you are requesting.

    Like

  292. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 6:56 am

    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

    We don’t have to put them in a particular category, the CDC has already done that.

    Like

  293. soubanh
    May 13, 2015 at 9:15 am

    @Chris – I believe Aussie and Lawrence answer that question. Besides your missing the point, I was making and that is with any outbreak, no vax gets the blamed without proof and the Disney is a great example. Unless you know more than the CDC then please let us in.

    Like

  294. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 9:30 am

    “The CEO of the Mexican Social Security Institute, José Antonio González Anaya, confirmed that hepatitis B vaccines that were applied to 52 children in the community Pepper in Chiapas did not cause health complications in 31 infants nor the two deaths.

    He said that so far it has been detected that there was a contamination by an external agent, a bacterium that has yet to be identified.

    The official gave a press conference where he was joined by the head of the Federal Commission for Protection Against Health Risks (COFEPRIS), Mikel Arriola and Undersecretary for Prevention and Health Promotion, Pablo Kuri.

    They reported that this afternoon will leave the hospital 10 children who have improved their health, although they will continue under observation 72 hours.

    Continue interned in Dr. Gilberto Gómez Maza of Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas, 14 children, of whom four are reported as serious Medical Center.

    Gonzalez Anaya said investigations are continuing to determine the type of bacteria that contaminated the process of applying the vaccine.

    Meanwhile, Pablo Kuri said immunization campaigns will continue without any problem throughout the country. This was determined by the National Immunization Council at the special meeting that was held this afternoon. ”

    So, now that the facts are in, do you have something to say Soubanh?

    Like

  295. soubanh
    May 13, 2015 at 11:01 am

    @Lawrence -thanks for the update about the Mexican topic but to say I’m surprised would be a lie. Go back to my initial post May 11@7:45.

    Like

  296. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 11:04 am

    Thank you for once again confirming that you don’t care about the truth or facts….just about your own opinions.

    Like

  297. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 11:38 am

    This is why discussions with anti-vax folks are almost entirely futile – they refuse to consider evidence and facts that don’t agree with their preconceived notions about vaccines & when confronted with inconvenient facts, they will resort to claiming conspiracy to maintain the facade that their “truth” is intact.

    So, that’s pretty much the end of that.

    Like

  298. Chris
    May 13, 2015 at 11:53 am

    “@Chris – I believe Aussie and Lawrence answer that question”

    Except I asked you. What are those ratios?

    I will illustrate what the numbers should look like. First the daily attendance at Disneyland during the winter holidays is estimated to be 70,000 people. If 90% are vaccinated then you would have 63000 vaccinated and 7000 not vaccinated,

    Since I don’t want to go into the “unknown vaccine status”, we’ll just use two hundred measles cases, half vaccinated and half not vaccinated. So the ratios are:

    100/63000 = .0016 or 0.16% of the vaccinated got measles.

    and

    100/7000 = .014 or 1.4% of those without vaccination got measles.

    So which group is more likely to get measles? And remember only 28 (18%) of the measles cases were in those that were fully vaccinated. So the more accurate ratio would be:

    28/63000 = .0004 or .04% of the vaccinated got measles.

    So much much smaller than those without a vaccine. A vaccine that is much safer than measles.

    Like

  299. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 12:23 pm

    @Chris

    “unvaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of unvaccinated in population”
    “vaccinated with measles”/”total numbers of vaccinated in population”

    You can’t make up the numbers Chris, and there is no way of knowing
    “unvaccinated with measles” or ”total numbers of unvaccinated in population”

    Not sure what your point is? If you want to claim that the vaccinated are more protected then the unvaccinated, then I will give you that, but it is different for every vaccine and for the time it offers protection. The other part of the equation is how many are injured by vaccines. So one must weigh getting some protection with vaccines against vaccine injuries and your over-all long term health.

    @Lawrence
    Your link did not provide the information needed as you stated, unless I missed it? Please give me the specific numbers that I missed from your link

    Like

  300. soubanh
    May 13, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    @Chris, You do know you are giving me your opinions right? And you are allowed but as Lawrence previously stated but your not entitled to give your own make up facts. And Lawrence, I assess people and organizations not by their lip service or ghostwriting propaganda. But I look at their actions and past to predict their future. This method have served me well and you should try that.

    Like

  301. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 12:45 pm

    @Chirs

    “I will illustrate what the numbers should look like. First the daily attendance at Disneyland during the winter holidays is estimated to be 70,000 people. If 90% are vaccinated then you would have 63000 vaccinated and 7000 not vaccinated,”

    You can’t assume 90% are vaccinated. Are you claiming that almost half of the 35,000 adults are all caught up on their vaccines? That is a huge assumption. What if only 10% of the adults were caught up on their vaccines? That’s a whole lot of unvaccinated people walking around Disney Land.

    Like

  302. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 1:17 pm

    @Aussie – given the high number of people who were vaccinated for measles in the past, and the long-lasting effect of the measles vaccine (decades at least), it is very safe to assume that an extremely high proportion of the people exposed were protected by the vaccine (compared to the contagious nature of measles).

    Like

  303. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    @Lawrence
    So you assume that 90% of all of the adults in Disney Land are caught up on the vaccine?

    I don’t know one single person (adult) that has gotten the vaccine recently.

    Also, why do you assume everybody in Disney Land is American? I’m pretty sure there are lots of people from all over the world.

    Like

  304. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 2:04 pm

    @aussie – many countries have better vaccination rates than even we do (in some countries, like many Central and South American nations, vaccines are mandatory – with few if any exceptions).

    And as for adults being up to date, since the measles component of the MMR has immunity that lasts for at least decades, if not lifelong, it really doesn’t matter when the last time an adult received it, as long as they did sometime in the past – and in the US, 90+ percent have done so.

    In fact, I received my MMR almost 40 years ago & with recent testing because of overseas travel requirements all of my titers are still well within the normal range for full immunity.

    Since we know that measles is extremely infectious – if not the most infectious disease on the planet, the fact that so few people of the thousands who were exposed actually came down with the disease, it just shows, again, how effective the vaccine truly is.

    Like

  305. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    @Lawrence

    You are making a lot of assumptions about the people in Disney Land. I am sorry, but assumptions don’t mean anything. Unless you can demonstrate that 90% of the people in Disney Land were recently vaccinated for measles or at least within the last 20 years, we can’t use Chris’ numbers. It’s a lot of assumptions you are making.

    Like

  306. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    “the fact that so few people of the thousands who were exposed actually came down with the disease, it just shows, again, how effective the vaccine truly is.”

    Again, this doesn’t prove anything. There could be potentially many factors as to why somebody does or does not get infected. You automatically credit the vaccine when we don’t know the status of the people and especially the adults.

    What is 90% of the adults no longer had the ‘titers” you have? What would that mean?

    Like

  307. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    @Aussie – we know that measles will infect 80 – 90% of the people exposed to it – it is an airborne disease that can hang in the air for up to two hours after an infected person has left the area……yet fewer than 100 people actually were directly infected at Disney….

    You’re the one making a bunch of baseless assumptions….

    Like

  308. soubanh
    May 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    @Lawrence, from my view, both you and Aussie are making assumptions. The only different is yours seems a little out there. But, if it makes you feel any better,even your best source the CDC have to assumed “it was carried in from out of country “. I think Aussie and I have presented some strong point here and I don’t want you or Chris to feel corner is not our goal. As I stated, the blamed on novax in the Disney case was without concrete evidence. The numbers given by the CDC would not be enough to win a case against novax. Case closed!

    Like

  309. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 4:05 pm

    Only in the minds of the delusional……

    Like

  310. Lawrence
    May 13, 2015 at 4:30 pm

    Because then there are outbreaks like this:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    Where a person’s choice not to vaccinate their children had very clear & negative effects on others.

    Like

  311. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    @Lawrence

    “@Aussie – we know that measles will infect 80 – 90% of the people exposed to it – it is an airborne disease that can hang in the air for up to two hours after an infected person has left the area……yet fewer than 100 people actually were directly infected at Disney….
    You’re the one making a bunch of baseless assumptions….”

    What assumptions am I making? Answer: None. I am assuming nothing and stating that there are endless amounts of possibilities since we don’t know the vaccine status of the people at the park.

    “we know that measles will infect 80 – 90% of the people exposed to it ”
    And how many were exposed to it at Disney Land Lawrence? Answer: We have no idea.

    Like

  312. Chris
    May 13, 2015 at 4:41 pm

    Aussie: “You can’t assume 90% are vaccinated. Are you claiming that almost half of the 35,000 adults are all caught up on their vaccines?”

    Do you understand that there have been measles vaccines for over fifty years, and that those born before the vaccine was available actually got the disease? Also, this table shows over 90% measles vaccine uptake in the Americas, and also in most of the places where most international visitors live. I did not pull that number out of thin air.

    Now, if you have better statistics do provide them.

    soubanh: ” As I stated, the blamed on novax in the Disney case was without concrete evidence.”

    Actually that is not “blame” but a realistic look at the probabilities, even though the index case has not been identified. Plus historically measles enters the USA from those who were not vaccinated, and picked up the disease elsewhere. This is what happened with the Amish community last year when some traveled to the Philippines and came back with extra spotty baggage.

    From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6414a1.htm :

    A total of 111 cases (70%) have been associated with an outbreak that originated in late December 2014 in Disney theme parks in Orange County, California. The source of the initial exposure has not been identified, but measles cases associated with this outbreak have been reported in seven U.S. states, Mexico, and Canada (3). Measles was laboratory confirmed in 101 (91%) of these cases, either by detection of measles-specific IgM or of measles virus RNA. The B3 genotype was identified in specimens from at least 40 patients associated with this outbreak. B3 is a common measles genotype that has been identified in multiple states and countries (4). Other smaller measles outbreaks in 2015 without a link to Disney theme parks have been reported in Illinois (15 cases), Nevada (nine), and Washington (five).

    Like

  313. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 4:44 pm

    @Lawrence
    “Because then there are outbreaks like this:
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    Again, you link doesn’t provide the information you think it does. You are yet reaching again. I can also post links showing kids getting diseases from other vaccinated kids, but that doesn’t mean it always happens that way does it?

    I haven’t ever seen a group of people (posters here) make such big assumptions and claim they are all true and tell every other person with an opinion that they are wrong. Try backing up your claims with some facts instead of assumptions.

    Like

  314. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    @Chris,

    You are doing it again. Making assumptions. The graph you provided proves nothing.

    It even states that it is “vaccine coverage estimates” by WHO. What does that even mean? That 90% were vaccinated at one time? Where does it state specifically that older people are all caught up on their vaccines?

    And by the way, I have seen the graph on the decline of measles long before the vaccine came out.

    Like

  315. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6404a6.htm

    “Adult vaccination coverage, however, remains low for most routinely recommended vaccines”

    “Vaccination coverage levels among adults are low. Improvement in adult vaccination is needed to reduce the health consequences of vaccine-preventable diseases among adults. Successful vaccination programs combine 1) education of potential vaccine recipients and publicity to promote vaccination, 2) increased access to vaccination services in health care settings, and 3) use of practices shown to improve vaccination coverage, including reminder-recall systems, efforts to remove administrative and financial barriers to vaccination, use of standing order programs for vaccination, and assessment of practice-level vaccination rates with feedback to staff members (4). Health care provider recommendations for vaccination are associated with patients’ receipt of vaccines.*** Routine assessment of adult patient vaccination needs, recommendation, and offer of needed vaccinations for adults should be incorporated into routine clinical care of adults (4,5). The adult immunization schedule (2), updated annually, provides current recommendations for vaccinating adults and a ready resource for persons who provide health care services for adults in various settings.”

    Like

  316. Chris
    May 13, 2015 at 5:31 pm

    Aussie: “Adult vaccination coverage, however, remains low for most routinely recommended vaccines”

    That article is about vaccines that need boosters like tetanus, and ones for travel like hepatitis, or HPV for those in their twenties. Most adults under age fifty have were vaccinated for measles as children, and those over fifty seven actually caught measles as children.

    I am not the one making assumptions. Though I do commend you for showing that adults need to check to see if they need any vaccines. Since I am in that gray area of being born after 1956 and before the first measles vaccines, and there is no one who knows if I caught measles I did get an MMR vaccine a couple of months ago. This is because we are planning on a short trip to California.

    Aussie, have you checked to see if you need a Tdap or shingles vaccine?

    Like

  317. Aussie
    May 13, 2015 at 5:56 pm

    @Chris

    I don’t think the Tdap is an effective vaccine so I won’t be getting it. I won’t ever be getting the Shingles vaccine as I have never had the Ck Pox or the Ck Pox vaccine. I had my titers checked and I am good to go.

    Like

  318. Chris
    May 13, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    Excuses, excuses.

    Like

  319. jgc56
    May 14, 2015 at 12:01 am

    “I don’t think the Tdap is an effective vaccine so I won’t be getting it.”

    From what evidence have you derived your conclusion that the TDaP vaccine is ineffective, Aussie?

    According to the CDC, among kids who get all 5 doses of DTaP on schedule DTaP vaccination is > 95% effective at protecting against diptheria infection for the individual’s lifetime; 80 to 90% effective in the first year after the series is complete at protecting against pertussis infection and 70% effective at protecting against pertussis infection thereafter, and 100% effective at preventing tetanus infection in the first ten years after completing the series (which is why routine tetanus booster shots are recommended very ten years).

    Like

  320. Chris
    May 14, 2015 at 12:55 am

    jgc, I always wonder why many think no protection from disease is better than 80% or even 40% protection.

    Why is total vulnerability better than some hope of protection?

    Like

  321. Aussie
    May 14, 2015 at 1:29 am

    @Chris
    Because my wife’s Dad was injured by the flu vaccine, so it really makes you stop and think about it. That’s why in my eyes vaccines are definitely a risk, so the vaccine better be worth it.

    Like

  322. Lawrence
    May 14, 2015 at 6:09 am

    It has come to my attention that a regular poster here & a person that has been very active in the vaccine community online passed away suddenly last month….our friend Lilady.

    Online memorials have been set up in a few different locations:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/13/in-memoriam-lilady/

    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/05/in-memoriam-lilady.html

    She will be missed.

    Like

  323. soubanh
    May 14, 2015 at 10:38 am

    Lawrence-Sorry to hear about the lost of someone you guys knew.

    Like

  324. Chris
    May 15, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    Apparently the mathematical acumen of some has been noticed. 🙂

    Like

  325. March 21, 2017 at 6:42 pm

    Reblogged this on autisticagainstantivaxxers.

    Like

  1. April 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm
  2. April 22, 2015 at 8:51 am

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