Home > Expert Insights, In the News, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research, Testimonials > Dr. Offit Explains How Bad Faith Undermines Modern Medicine

Dr. Offit Explains How Bad Faith Undermines Modern Medicine

Every Child By Two Executive Director, Amy Pisani, reviews Dr. Paul Offit’s latest book.

A riveting new book by Dr. Paul Offit hits the shelves this week; Bad Faith: When Religious Belief Undermines Modern Medicine.  

Offit-Bad FaithDr. Offit’s latest book chronicles the stories of several families who made decisions for their children’s health based on their religious beliefs, even when the consequences have resulted in the loss of lives.

In one most respectful account, Dr. Offit delves into the psychological forces that resulted in the worst possible outcome for the Swan family.  The Swans, both of whom grew up as Christian Scientists, allowed religious leaders to persuade them to deny medical care to their child even as he suffered agonizing pain.  When inviting religious healers to their home, the Swan’s – who were taught that disease is a figment of the imagination of the unfaithful – believed they were seeking appropriate medical care for their child.

But is it appropriate for religion to shield a parent from denying life-saving medicines, including vaccines, for their children?

Bad Faith takes a stark and disturbing look at the surprising capacity of both individuals, and policy makers here in the U.S., to risk the health and safety of children, all in the name of religion.

Bad Faith holds no religious-based medical practices on a pedestal.  The writer does not condemn any specific religion, but rather the specific practices that are followed in the name of religion.  His examples include the practices of some Orthodox Jews who refuse to acknowledge 21st Century hygiene techniques to protect infants undergoing circumcisions, various extreme Christian religions who preach the denial of life-saving medicines including antibiotics and vaccines, even Catholic hospitals who deny life-saving care to women, all in the name of Jesus.

This book comes out on the heels of a measles outbreak that has spread throughout the country, sickening more than 125 people in fifteen states, Canada and Mexico.  The cause of the outbreak? Parents who have chosen not to vaccinate their children, many basing their decision on personal or religious beliefs.  The question at hand is how could this still be happening, and why are we letting it happen in 21st Century America?

Bad Faith takes readers on a mesmerizing journey through the centuries.  Although the essential teachings of most religions is to first do no harm, this book documents the fact that many religions have formulated beliefs that are counter to medical advances, and preach the avoidance of medical treatment to their faithful followers.

How can so many religions have gone astray while modern medicine continues to forge cutting-edge innovations that have improved and saved the lives of millions?

One of the core principals of Every Child By Two is to protect vulnerable young children from deadly diseases.  Since some parents have been known to decline immunizations for their children based on their “religious beliefs“, Every Child By Two has compiled a list to clarify various religious faiths and their stance on vaccines.  This book extends the issue of faith beyond the scope of immunization.  It is a must read for anyone who seeks to understand the tangled relationship between religion and medicine in America.

To place your order for Bad Faith: When Religious Belief Undermines Modern Medicine click here.

  1. reissd
    March 4, 2015 at 11:02 am

    One of the things I found most powerful in this book – aside from the fact that it’s extremely well written, and the stories powerful – is Dr. Offit’s distinction between religion and the things done in its name. Dr. Offit does not attack religion. He attacks harming children.

    It’s an excellent, heart-rending, thought provoking book.

    Like

  2. jack mehoff
    March 4, 2015 at 11:15 am

    Unfortunately, Modern medicine does not come without risk….ever. Last year I was prescribed routine antibiotics(blind faith in my doctor) and it landed me in the hospital for four days. I was told I would possibly die or have to where a colostomy bag the rest of my life.

    The point is….we live in a free and open society where personal liberty, religious freedoms, and parental rights must be upheld. Especially by doctors! Patient autonomy is a basic medical.

    Like

  3. reissd
    March 4, 2015 at 11:18 am

    I would urge you to read the book before commenting. The type of cases the book highlights are those where children were denied treatment that would clearly have saved their life and otherwise directly put at risk.

    If you want to claim that parents have the right to deny diabetic children insulin, children with infections antibiotics when they’re very very sick, or put them at risk in other ways, I’m sorry, but parental rights are not absolute. Just like a parent does not have a right to starve a child – and that, too, has happened – a parent does not have a right to kill the child by neglectfully withholding life-saving children.

    Because children have rights, too.

    Like

  4. jack mehoff
    March 4, 2015 at 11:33 am

    Well, the intent with this blog is on vaccines. It boggles my mind that you link the parent refusing insulin resulting in death to the parent who says no to varicella, measles, and flu vax.

    The major problem in our society is we have dethroned God, and exalted man. One of the major problems with that is that when we put trust in men, we get only the best that man can do. If we trusted God, we would get God’s best.

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  5. March 4, 2015 at 12:05 pm

    Mr. Mehoff: “It boggles my mind that you link the parent refusing insulin resulting in death to the parent who says no to varicella, measles, and flu vax.”

    They are both forms of medical neglect. And while this blog is about vaccines, behind that is the intention of protecting children. It is something that motivates Dr. Offit, especially since he personally saw children die of measles in the 1990/91 epidemic due to the beliefs of two faith healing churches in the Philadelphia area.

    Mr. Mehoff: “dethroned God”

    By the hammer of Thor, which one?

    “If we trusted God, we would get God’s best.”

    Apparently the Followers of Christ in Oregon have buried lots of their children (that article is from 1998, there have been many more since). Is it that they don’t trust their particular deity enough, or is it because their deity hates kids?

    Personally I prefer the deity that gave us the ability to deal with diseases, even the genetic heart disorder of my oldest. Because it is the deity that gave the heart surgeon the skill to remove the excess muscle growth in his heart (plus the surgeon was taught by those who came up with the technique). By the way the Mayo Clinic was founded as an association with the Mayo medical family and the Sisters of Saint Francis. The hospital that my son had surgery in, St. Marys Hospital, has portraits of the nuns who ran it from 1892 to 1986 (the last one still had an office there when we were there).

    Like

  6. jgc56
    March 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm

    “It boggles my mind that you link the parent refusing insulin resulting in death to the parent who says no to varicella, measles, and flu vax.”

    Why, when failing to vaccinate a child against varicella, measles or influenza may also not only result in their injury or death due to infection by those diseases, but may also place others at increased risk of death or injury through the compromising of herd immunity?

    “The major problem in our society is we have dethroned God, and exalted man.”
    You seem to be presuming those supernatural entities commonly termed ‘god’ or “the gods” actually exist. Why?

    Like

  7. reissd
    March 4, 2015 at 12:17 pm

    This blog is focused on vaccines. This post on it, however, examines a book that goes far beyond vaccines – a book the commentator obviously has not read before commenting. The book starts with a denial of antibiotics for a child with an acute infection. And it goes on with stories of denying insulin.

    Again, you may want to read the book before making comments that purport to disagree with it.

    Like

  8. Lawrence
    March 4, 2015 at 12:33 pm

    If there is a God, he gave us the sense to apply science to combat diseases and afflictions that killed hundreds of millions, if not billions of people across human history…..I’d like to think that he’d (or she’d) heartily approve of vaccines.

    Like

  9. Karen
    March 4, 2015 at 4:37 pm

    Jack
    You are right. Every person has a right to informed consent, to give or withhold permission for potentially devastating reactions to medical interventions. If the vaccines work and you think they are necessary, great, get them and give them to your child. If they work, great, your child will not get the diseases, but also won’t get the benefits for the immune system of going through the natural childhood diseases. If they don’t work, then you are demanding that other people’s children take often dangerous vaccines which are ineffective, providing only risk and no benefit, and actively preventing anyone from getting the benefits of the diseases. And no one has the right to force anyone to do that to our children.

    Like

  10. Lawrence
    March 4, 2015 at 4:41 pm

    @Karen – at the end of the day, if you don’t want to vaccinate, that’s fine.

    Just expect that your choice will have consequences, and in this case, it would mean that your children will not be able to attend public school.

    Like

  11. jgc56
    March 4, 2015 at 5:14 pm

    ‘If they work, great, your child will not get the diseases, but also won’t get the benefits for the immune system of going through the natural childhood diseases.”

    What benefits do you believe a child’s immune system may only acquirea as a result of contracting an infectious disease, karen? Be specific.

    “If they don’t work, then you are demanding that other people’s children take often dangerous vaccines which are ineffective, providing only risk and no benefit, and actively preventing anyone from getting the benefits of the diseases.”

    First, vaccines demonstrably do work: there’s a very large body of evidence indication routine vaccination significantly reduces the incidence of infectious diseases.

    Second, there’s also a large body of evidence indicating those ‘dangerous vaccines’ are in fact not very dangerous at all, and demonstrably far less dangerous than the diseases they protect against (i.e., that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination are far, far less than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection.)

    And third (once again): what exactly are these benefits you seem to believe one gets as a result of contracting an infectious disease?

    “And no one has the right to force anyone to do that to our children.”

    And you know what? NO ONE IS.

    Like

  12. everychildbytwo
    March 4, 2015 at 6:23 pm

    It is my sincere hope that no matter which side you seem to be on this thread, all of those commenting will take the time to read this book (I understand that several have already done so). The book is so much more than just a discussion on vaccines. As a person of faith it opened my eyes to the role of religion over thousands of years and how the faithful’s interpretations of religious teachings have on some occassions been of great benefit to mankind, and on other occassions the opposite has been true. Amy Pisani

    Like

  13. novalox
    March 4, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    @jack

    Whatever “god: you are worshiping, I wouldn’t want to follow, if he would allow children to die of something entirely preventable.

    Like

  14. Chris
    March 4, 2015 at 6:33 pm

    I put a hold on the book at my library. I am number six in line for four books, which are on order. I suspect it was ordered after a request by a library patron, something I have done a few times.

    Like

  15. Frankie
    March 4, 2015 at 6:37 pm

    “@Karen – at the end of the day, if you don’t want to vaccinate, that’s fine.
    Just expect that your choice will have consequences, and in this case, it would mean that your children will not be able to attend public school.”

    And also expect that if you do vaccinate, that choice may also have negative consequences, such as injury, as it did for my child.

    As long as vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe” we should should always have the right to choose if we want them or not.

    Like

  16. Lawrence
    March 4, 2015 at 7:10 pm

    @Frankie – yes, and with every choice there are consequences – so please don’t complain when your kids are barred from school.

    Like

  17. Katarina Witt
    March 4, 2015 at 7:30 pm

    I don’t know why Offit is banging away at religion like this. I’ve read some of his other stuff on religion, like “What Would Jesus Do?” which I considered a rather snide title, and some writings about the measles outbreak of the early 1990s. Well, this isn’t 1991 any more. In my state, Colorado, 93% of the exemptions are “personal belief” exemptions, and I believe I read that last school year there was not ONE religious exemption in the entire state. Even in Offit’s state, most exemptions are for personal beliefs and there’s a big battle going on there to eliminate them. He would better benefit society by fighting that (personal exemptions) than whanging on religion like this.

    Like

  18. Lawrence
    March 4, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    He’s doing both.

    Like

  19. Chris
    March 4, 2015 at 7:47 pm

    Ms. Witt, what about the measles outbreak in Ohio last year? Does that now count?

    Like

  20. Katarina Witt
    March 4, 2015 at 11:45 pm

    He’s going to alienate a lot of church-going people with this stuff. That Ohio
    outbreak was also in the Amish community, and it pretty much stayed there. This Disney thing just keeps growing, and California has some of the most unchurched people in the country (as does Colorado). It’s not just the religious people who don’t vaccinate.

    Like

  21. Chris
    March 5, 2015 at 12:41 am

    Have you read the book yet? If not, how do you know what the outcome will be.

    Those of us in the Pacific Northwest are not terribly happy with the situation in Oregon City. So many graves of children who could have lived. Anyone with a heart who loves children grieves at the thought of children dying just because the parents thought prayer was better than calling 911.

    Like

  22. jack mehoff
    March 5, 2015 at 10:06 am

    Cite your sources Chris. That is… parents praying instead of calling 911 and their kids die.

    Normal healthy children do not die from measles, chickenpox or the flu. You have a greater chance of a deer flying through your windshield and killing your children. Dr. Offit has made a crap ton of money on his rotavirus vaccine(which was recalled at one point for injuring many kids).

    If you are about the children than start banning swimming pools and two story houses because steps and water kill farm more children.

    Like

  23. Lawrence
    March 5, 2015 at 10:13 am

    @jack – that’s untrue. His patent was sold & after that, he has received zero compensation for it. Also, the vaccine he helped develop replaced the one that was found to have serious, but rare side-effects.

    As to the “faith-healing” problem:

    http://www.katu.com/news/investigators/Faith-healing-Idaho-laws-231233531.html

    Like

  24. everychildbytwo
    March 5, 2015 at 10:29 am

    Those who ar claiming Philosophical exemptions often do so b/c it is avaialble to them. If this option was eliminated but Religious exemptions were still avaialble they would simply check the box option for Religious exemptions. The anti-vax groups are making a concerted effort to spread the word that these options are available to parents.

    And @Lawrence, you are absolutely correct. Dr. Offit sold his patent and will never make another penny no matter how many vaccines are sold by Merck. And his vaccine was not the version that was recalled.
    Amy Pisani

    Like

  25. Chris
    March 5, 2015 at 10:51 am

    Mr. Mehoff: “Cite your sources Chris. That is… parents praying instead of calling 911 and their kids die.”

    The blue letters in my comments are links. The tiny graves in Oregon City are well known in our corner of the country. Also, there are actual PubMed indexed reviews of measles outbreaks:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1993 Apr;12(4):288-92.
    High attack rates and case fatality during a measles outbreak in groups with religious exemption to vaccination.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1996 Jan;15(1):31-8.
    Measles outbreaks in the United States, 1987 through 1990.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1992 Oct;11(10):841-6.
    Epidemiology of measles in the United States in 1989 and 1990.

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    Now, you Mr. Mehoff need to provide citations for this claim: “Normal healthy children do not die from measles, chickenpox or the flu. You have a greater chance of a deer flying through your windshield and killing your children.”

    Like

  26. Chris
    March 5, 2015 at 10:58 am

    Also, Mr. Mehoff, death is not the only bad outcome of measles. Please read this anecdote:
    http://www.measlesrubellainitiative.org/measles-sister/

    Though, as recent research shows, anecdotes and pictures of the effects of diseases do not sway folks like you. My theory is that you all just lack basic human empathy.

    Like

  27. Katarina Witt
    March 5, 2015 at 11:09 am

    @Chris and Jack: I’ve read a number of reviews of this book and I plan to read it soon. I’m not familiar with the Oregon City incident referenced, but those people sound like extremists and are not likely to be swayed by any book that says otherwise. I’ve given vaccines for many years, I hate to say how many, makes me sound old. I’m also the parish nurse at my church. I’m pretty tuned into parents. More parents are vaccine hesitant than opponents. Some of these hesitant people are part of the “religious right” and they don’t appreciate people making fun of their beliefs.

    Normal healthy kids do die of measles, chickenpox and flu. There have been 92 pediatric flu deaths this season. When last year’s peds deaths were analyzed, about 40% of those kids had no pre-existing conditions and were healthy kids prior to illness. The vast, vast majority, upwards of 90%, were unimmunized. I know there’s been a problem with this year’s vaccine, I got the flu myself after getting the shot. But our office has been seeing a lot of flu B lately, and that’s the type the vaccine is good for. A chickenpox death at Denver Children’s Hospital about the time the vaccine was approved got a lot of area doctors on the vaccine bandwagon. No kids have died here in the US from this measles outbreak, but a child just died in Germany last week.

    Like

  28. Katarina Witt
    March 5, 2015 at 11:15 am

    @everychildbytwo: Offit’s state allows both philosophical and religious exemptions. I found some statistics, which I can’t seem to refind, that showed that the vast majority of religious exemptions in PA came from the Amish. Again, they’re a group we’re not about to sway with a book like this from outside the church. Even in PA, there are more philosophical exemptions than religious and a fight is going on in their state legislature to repeal the philosophical. I don’t know if all those Catholics, Lutherans and Presbyterians in PA (I grew up there) are going to start claiming religious exemption. Certainly their religious leaders do not object to immunization. The key is to make it harder to get an exemption-it should be more than checking a box. In my current state, Colorado, both types of exemptions are allowed and 93% of exemptions are “personal belief” and I beleive there were no religious exemptions in the previous school year. Colorado Springs is the HQ for several far-right religious organizations.

    Like

  29. jgc56
    March 5, 2015 at 11:32 am

    “I don’t know why Offit is banging away at religion like this.”
    Offit isn’t banging away at religion, though, is he? The book instead ‘bangs away’ at religious based medical practices which demonstrably place children at increased risk of illness, injury and death.

    Like

  30. jgc56
    March 5, 2015 at 11:38 am

    “Normal healthy children do not die from measles, chickenpox or the flu.”
    Normal healthy children do sometimes contract measles, chickenpox and the flu, however.
    At which point they’re no longer healthy children but instead seriously ill children, who are at risk of adverse outcomes including death.

    For example, per the CDC 1 out of 10 children with measles develop an ear infection; 1 in 20 develop pneumonia,1 in 1,000 may develop encephalitis and 1 or 2 in 1,000 may die.

    Like

  31. jgc56
    March 5, 2015 at 11:41 am

    “If you are about the children than start banning swimming pools and two story houses because steps and water kill farm more children.”

    Jack, in 2013 the WHO documents 145,700 mealses deaths worldwide–that works out to about 400 deaths each day.

    Please provide credible evidence that 400 children a day die due to a fall down the stairs in a two story home.

    Like

  32. reissd
    March 5, 2015 at 11:43 am

    @jgc56: Katarina actually said “Normal healthy kids do die of measles, chickenpox and flu. There have been 92 pediatric flu deaths this season.” – agreeing with you.

    @Katarina: I doubt the book is aimed at those that do these things. But if you read it, it points out problematic policies that protect parents who engage in such actions. I read it as aimed at raising awareness of the problem and calling for a policy that does not leave children at the mercy of faith-based practices that endanger them.
    Vaccines are a small part of the book, actually.

    @Jack: Read the book. It’s full of examples of parents doing just that, letting children die in the name of religion and praying while the children suffer. Look up Rita Swan’s CHILD.

    Like

  33. Chris
    March 5, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    These links are about the pediatric deaths in the Pacific Northwest, and they have links to other stories:
    http://doubtfulnews.com/2014/12/rossiters-sentenced-to-10-years-for-faith-healing-and-failure-to-provide-medical-care/
    and…
    http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/11/oregon-media-traces-child-faith-healing-deaths-to-idaho/

    reissd: “Look up Rita Swan’s CHILD.”

    One of my comments contains a link to her website.

    Like

  34. Shay
    March 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm

    “The major problem in our society is we have dethroned God, and exalted man.” Could you please provide the Biblical reference banning vaccinations?

    Like

  35. jgc56
    March 5, 2015 at 6:47 pm

    reissd: Yes, but I hadn’t seen katarina’s response at the time I was responding to jack’s original statement from 10:06 this morning.

    Shay, why the bible? let’s see the texts from the Egyptian book of the dead andthe Hindu veda’s, etc. We’d want to know that the anti-vax position represents the consensus conclusion of the world’s various deities, after all.

    Like

  36. Isla
    March 5, 2015 at 6:51 pm

    Gandhi apparently did not like vaccines.

    Like

  37. reissd
    March 5, 2015 at 6:51 pm

    @jcg56: 🙂 I must have missed the original. My apology.

    I do want to take issue with the point about biblical references. Religious law does actually have things to say about technologies that come up after the text is prepared. It’s done through cannons of interpretation, and often there are theologians debate, for example, on the ability to divorce, in Islam, via text message.

    That’s how Jewish scholars, for example, arrived at strong support for vaccination: http://ohr.edu/5503. (I’m cheating – I wrote about this relatively recently). http://www.hastingslawjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/Reiss-65.6.pdf

    You can have a religious position on something that wasn’t around centuries ago.

    Like

  38. Lawrence
    March 5, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    @Isla – well, he was speaking about Smallpox, which is now eradicated, so he wasn’t exactly right on that one….plus this:

    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/26525/did-gandhi-call-vaccination-a-barbarous-practice

    Like

  39. Karen
    March 5, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    Lawrence,
    We’ll see, won’t we? The We the People petition against mandates is now at 125,000 signatures, well over the threshold and one of the five most popular petitions during Obama’s presidency. A USA Today survey found that 92% of Americans are AGAINST vaccine mandates. I know you tend to forget about stuff like democracy and civil rights, but we haven’t.

    Like

  40. Lawrence
    March 5, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    Hello again Ms. Parker – perhaps you’ll get the same response at the petition to build the Death Star…..

    Like

  41. Lawrence
    March 5, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    And Ms. Parker, with all of your talk about rights, I have yet to hear you talk about the responsibilities that come with it – or accepting the consequences of the choices you make….there is a very selfish person here, and it isn’t me.

    Like

  42. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 1:30 am

    Lawrence,
    A friend sent me this link the other day to what might be Dorit’s We the People petition? Why aren’t you guys promoting it more vigorously? The American people’s chance to make their opinion on vaccine mandates known!

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/push-states-eliminate-non-medical-exemptions-childhood-vaccines-protect-health-our-children/5RrVVFFB

    Only one week left to get 99,657 signatures! And I thought WE were up a creek when the count on ours was frozen for three days!

    Like

  43. Chris
    March 6, 2015 at 3:36 am

    Wow, Ms. Parker, you are really reeling in the power of slactivism!

    Like

  44. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 7:49 am

    @Ms. Parker – because bills that do what is right (tighten vaccine mandates) are already working their way through various state legislatures….we don’t need online petitions.

    Like

  45. everychildbytwo
    March 6, 2015 at 9:24 am

    https://www.change.org/p/u-s-state-legislators-protect-our-children-and-communities-against-vaccine-preventable-diseases

    Every Child By Two is seeking signatures for a petition that requires education prior to exempting one’s child and provides access to exemption data to parents for daycares and schools. please consider signing

    Like

  46. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 9:47 am

    1 Corinthians 6:19

    Like

  47. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 11:02 am

    ” I know you tend to forget about stuff like democracy and civil rights, but we haven’t.”

    Karen, in what way does requiring children be vaccinated in order to rattend a public school, or requiring a health care worker be vaccinated to qualify for empolyment in an occupation where they will interact directly with patients many of whom may for legitimate medical reasons not be suitable candidates for vaccination violate anyone’s civil rights?

    Explain that one to me.

    Like

  48. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 11:04 am

    Jack, re: your verse from 1st Corinthians

    You’re speaking as if the Bible were known to possess some inherent authority. Why?

    Like

  49. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 11:28 am

    Yes, I believe the Bible is the full and final authority for my faith and the way I live my life and the decisions for myself and my family.

    Like

  50. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 11:57 am

    @Jack (I wish you’d pick a better nym – because yours is just insulting) – I won’t point out the multitude of contradictions, the changes in translations and meanings over the years, and the various rules in the Bible that would never be tolerated in today’s society….

    What I will point out is no major religion in the world has come out against vaccines – and if you don’t personally believe in them, well, that’s okay – just realize that choice has consequences – if you choose not to vaccinate, then be prepared to have certain rights restricted – like sending your kids to public schools.

    Again, it is rights vs. responsibilities – and I yet to see an anti-vax person mention that they are prepared to accept the consequences of their decisions.

    Like

  51. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    I get that you believe the bible tp be ta full and final authority for your preferred religious faith, such that you have chosen to inform the decision you make which impact only yourself and your family.

    I don’t get why you believe this, however, or why you were ofer them in support of a secular argument regarding the benefits of routine vaccination and implelmentation of public health policies which demonstrably are effective at reducing the incidence of infectious diseases, as if others might reasonably be expected to view that belief as anythng other than superstition..

    Like

  52. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm

    No, I would not call a flu vaccine with efficacy of 12%(3% in Europe) …demonstrably effective.

    I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions and fully prepared to accept them. However, I highly doubt myself or my children or anyone I know personally will EVER die from the flu.

    Thanks for your heartfelt concern though…..

    Like

  53. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 3:29 pm

    @jack – then you better hope something like the Spanish Flu never makes a comeback….because it was the young and healthy that died in droves (about 1 Million Americans died, not to mention the over 50 million or so that died worldwide).

    So Jack, you have no problem with your kids being barred from school? Thanks for clearing that up.

    Like

  54. Chris
    March 6, 2015 at 3:35 pm

    Mr. Mehoff: “Normal healthy children do not die from measles, chickenpox or the flu. You have a greater chance of a deer flying through your windshield and killing your children.”

    This week the CDC influenza update show 97 verified pediatric deaths this season. Can you please give us the verifiable statistics that show that a year where almost a hundred children died by deer/vehicle collisions? You made a claim, now you need to back it up.

    Like

  55. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 3:44 pm

    White-tailed deer are the deadliest animals in North America. Every year an estimated 1.25 million deer-vehicle crashes result in about 150 human fatalities, more than 10,000 injuries, and insurance payouts approaching $4 billion.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/01/deer_car_crashes_how_to_avoid_and_survive_collisions_with_north_america.single.html

    A little perspective is all that’s needed.

    Like

  56. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 3:46 pm

    Jack: If someone killed all your children, would it matter? There were probably more people killed by deer than that one man, so it isn’t that important, right?

    Like

  57. Chris
    March 6, 2015 at 4:00 pm

    Thanks, Jack. Now how many of those 150 fatalities were children? Because one can assume the majority of those fatalities were the adults driving the cars.

    By the way, the CDC weekly flu updates also says:

    Among all hospitalizations, 13,778 (94.2%) were associated with influenza A, 739 (5.0%) with influenza B, 54 (0.4%) with influenza A and B co-infection, and 61 (0.4%) had no virus type information. Among those with influenza A subtype information, 4,245 (99.7%) were A(H3N2) and 12 (0.3%) were A(H1N1)pdm09.

    So obviously flu is worse than errant deer.

    Like

  58. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 4:24 pm

    An even better perspective – you have a better chance of being struck by lightning (odds of 1 in 700,000 in a given year, 1 in 5000 over the course of your lifetime).

    Odds of suffering a severe vaccine reaction, about 1 in 1 million….

    Like

  59. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 4:30 pm

    Lawrence,
    You guys don’t have ANY idea of the backlash there would be if state legislatures passed vaccine mandates. Legislators would be compelled to decide if they were elected to represent the interests of vaccine companies or the American people. How many vaxed (or unvaxed) American children died last year from a VPD they got at school from an unvaxed classmate (or teacher)? Zero? And how many got autism etc. from a vaccine?

    Like

  60. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 4:35 pm

    Yes Falcon….I take the matter of deer very seriously. We should ban children from cars because the risk of being impaled by deer antlers is far greater than the risk of death be measles or chickenpox. Ban pools, tubs and second story houses….do it for the children.

    Like

  61. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    @Ms. Parker – the answer to your second question is ZERO.

    The answer to your first question is numerous school-age children died last year of vaccine-preventable diseases….the information is easily accessible via the CDC website.

    And vaccine mandates exist today & have few a couple of hundred years now – far longer than we’ve had “Under God” in the Pledge or on our money, that’s for sure.

    Like

  62. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 4:37 pm

    Why stop there. put a police officer in every kids bedroom until they are 18.

    Like

  63. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 4:43 pm

    Jack: Nobody advocates that. Arguing with people that don’t exist is a sign of psychosis.

    Like

  64. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 4:44 pm

    This is a prime example of why it is impossible to reason with a person who holds anti-vaccine beliefs……

    Like

  65. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 4:46 pm

    ” Legislators would be compelled to decide if they were elected to represent the interests of vaccine companies or the American people.”

    By what rational argument could voting to support public health policies proven to result in significant annual reductions in the number of children and adults who become ill, require hospitalization and/or suffer serious andoften lasting adverse health impacts as a conseqeunce of contracting an infectious disease be considered acting AGAINST the interests of the American people, rather than acting in their interest?

    Explain that one to me.

    “How many vaxed (or unvaxed) American children died last year from a VPD they got at school from an unvaxed classmate (or teacher)? Zero?”

    You seem to be presuming that the only benefit of vaccines is to prevent the death of someone whose vaccinated, rather than to prevent infections, reducing the number of individuals who require hospitalization, and preventing the adverse consequences associated with infectious diseases like measles, mumps, etc., other than death. Why?

    “And how many got autism etc. from a vaccine?”

    That’s an easy one: none, since at present the body of evidence addressing the possibility of a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders supports the conclusion that no such causal association exists, and no one, in the America’s or elsewhere, has ever ‘got autism’ from a vaccine.

    Like

  66. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 4:48 pm

    And forcing a medical procedure on someone against their will is a sign of narcissism.

    Like

  67. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    “We should ban children from cars because the risk of being impaled by deer antlers is far greater than the risk of death be measles or chickenpox.”

    Again, jack: worldwide in 2013 there were 145,700 deaths caused by measles infections, mostly in children, woring out to roughly 400 cases a day. Please provide evidence that more than 400 automotive collisions with deer, resulting in at least one death as a consequence of being impaled on that deer’s antlers, occurred worldwide each day during the same time.

    Like

  68. jgc56
    March 6, 2015 at 4:52 pm

    “And forcing a medical procedure on someone against their will is a sign of narcissism.”

    Who is forcing a medical procedure on anyone against their will, jack? You do realize hat if you elect not to vaccinate yourself or your children no one is going to take you or them into custody and forcibly vaccinate you or them against your will?

    Like

  69. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    jack: Nobody’s advocating that, either. We’re demanding that the unvaccinated stay out of the way of vulnerable infants and cancer patients. You know, something called personal responsibility. In other words, does my right to swing around a baseball bat include into swinging into your legs?

    Like

  70. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/deaths-from-chickenpox-down/

    Deaths have been reduced, but that still means that kids die from it, every year.

    That’s just one example & there are many others.

    Like

  71. jack mehoff
    March 6, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    Chickenpox??? really??

    You people are insane out of your mind crazy. Do you people walk around all day wearing helmets…..because if chickenpox frighten you I think a helmet is a good idea…like the ones autistic kids where.

    Like

  72. Chris
    March 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Mr. Mehoff, only a cruel and sadistic person would want children to suffer up to two weeks covered in itchy open wounds that can get infected. It must be because your deity of choice dislikes children.

    So, do you live in Oregon City?

    Like

  73. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    Jack: For that “helmet” remark, no mercy. You are a demon who loves only himself. Repent.

    Like

  74. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 5:33 pm

    @Gray – he shows his true “Christian” colors…..if he doesn’t like Chicken Pox, perhaps this is more to his liking:

    https://shotofprevention.com/2013/03/14/meningitis-vaccine-may-save-your-childs-life/

    Like

  75. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 5:34 pm

    @Jack – and if your haste to call us crazy, you fail to realize that I’m just showing how Ms. Parker is lying once again, claiming that children don’t die of these diseases.

    Like

  76. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 5:53 pm

    Perhaps I should explain: I know several autistic adults. I’ve seen numerous autistic children. None of them wear helmets. Using hateful stereotypes like that to make his case only reveals what kind of cruel, uncaring person Jack really is.

    Like

  77. Isla
    March 6, 2015 at 7:12 pm

    All of this talk about personal responsibility. I am first and foremost taking care of my own family. Everybody else comes in 2nd. Get it? My family first, then everybody else. If you have a problem with that then you are nutso!

    Like

  78. Isla
    March 6, 2015 at 7:14 pm

    In case you don’t understand my last comment. There is a risk with vaccination, and if I choose not to vaccinate my kids because of that risk, that is what I am going to do. Family first, then everybody else. Anybody who disagrees can bugger-off!

    Like

  79. Lawrence
    March 6, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    @Isla – that’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to vaccinate. But, you must accept the consequences of that decision, which may preclude your children from attending public schools.

    Like

  80. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 7:40 pm

    Isla- one could justify running over people with their car with that attitude. And there is a much, much bigger risk to not vaccinating, including one to other people, such as babies and cancer patients.

    Like

  81. Katarina Witt
    March 6, 2015 at 7:49 pm

    @jJack-a chickenpox death at Denver Children’s Hospital right around the time the vaccine was licensed in the US got most of the area doctors on the vaccine bandwagon. It was sad it took a death to convince them.

    @Isla-I think we all feel that way. The risks to your kids from vaccination are far less than the risks to them from disease.

    Like

  82. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 10:28 pm

    Lawrence,
    why do you keep saying that? You do know, don’t you, that at this time schoolchildren in 48 states can take a religious exemption to the vaccine requirement, and in Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court ruled that any parent that wants to claim a religious exemption can take it, no questions asked. The State may not play religious police. I KNOW you guys are working feverishly to damage every child in the country, and then go after the adults, but you’re going to find that you’re not going to be successful. And Isla is right, every person’s responsibility is to protect his own children, and many of us do that by refusing vaccines. If others want to get them, fine, do so and then rest easy. Why should others have the right to make their neighbors damage their children with vaccines in order to possibly, remotely protect their own vaccinated child from getting the usually mild VPDs?

    Like

  83. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 10:29 pm

    And Katarina, that’s not correct. The danger to children from vaccines is MUCH higher than the risk from the diseases, even if no one vaccinated for them. Therefore we refuse vaccines.

    Like

  84. reissd
    March 6, 2015 at 10:47 pm

    ” in Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court ruled that any parent that wants to claim a religious exemption can take it, no questions asked. ”

    This is either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Hobby Lobby. Hobby Lobby did not interpret the First Amendment but RFRA, which does not apply to the states, and did not overturn existing law – Employment Division v. Smith – which said that you can apply general and neutral laws to those with religious opposition to them, too. In fact, Hobby Lobby reinforced Smith.

    The current law – that states do not have to offer a religious exemption – stands, as highlighted in Workman v. Mingo Cnty. Bd. of Educ., 419 F. App’x 348, 353–54 (4th Cir. 2011) (per curiam) and Phillips v. City of N.Y., ___ F.3d ___ (2d Cir. 2015).

    Nor is the claim that vaccines damage many children true. Both for the individual child and for society, vaccinating is the safer choice. A parent who is not vaccinating is not protecting their children; she is choosing the larger risk for those children. Hopefully, herd immunity protects most of them.

    Like

  85. reissd
    March 6, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    If Dr. Offit was in it for the money, he wouldn’t be donating all the proceeds of this book to children’s charities and spending so much time educating people about vaccines with no direct gain.

    Like

  86. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 11:16 pm

    Karen- What evidence do you have that vaccines are more dangerous that diseases. Before the measles vaccine was created, hundreds died from the disease. How many died from the vaccine?

    Marsha- Treatment is much more expensive than prevention. How do we know you’re not trying to cut back on vaccination just so people can profit when measles comes back? If we follow the money, it comes back to you.

    Like

  87. reissd
    March 6, 2015 at 11:16 pm

    The fact that some anti-vaccine activists attack Dr. Offit speaks more to their biases than to him, as does Ms. Attkisson problematic, incompetent reporting on the topic: http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2008/07/sharyl-attkisso.html

    I would not say her article is a good place to find the truth. And personal attacks and conspiracy theories are not a good substitute for having data on your side.

    Like

  88. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 11:40 pm

    Dorit, from your own article on Hobby Lobby: “The decision, however, also reaffirms the other part of this. If a state does choose to offer a religious accommodation, it cannot play religious police: it cannot judge the validity of the religious beliefs or discriminate among them (see pp. 36-37).”

    http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/hobby-lobby-religious-exemptions-good-bad-ugly/

    Like

  89. reissd
    March 6, 2015 at 11:42 pm

    Yes, that’s not new from Hobby Lobby – if a state does grant a religious exemption, it can’t discriminate between beliefs.

    But a state doesn’t have to grant a religious exemption.

    Like

  90. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 11:48 pm

    Dorit,
    I understand that states don’t have to offer a religious exemption, and I understand that you guys are working hard to get them all repealed. I don’t think you will be successful. There are too many people who would refuse to vaccinate their children, who pay taxes for public schools, and, if they want to send their children to public school, have a right to do so. If vaccines work, then what are you so worried about? Let the parents unafraid of vaccines get them, and let those of us who are scared to death of vaccine damage refuse them. Why is it so important to you to force everyone to take the huge risk, which would result in even higher numbers of the vaccine-damaged?

    What diseases are you so afraid of? The formerly universal childhood diseases are nearly always relatively mild, give permanent immunity, the ability to protect future infants, a stronger immune system, and, in the case of measles, protection from many diseases and several cancers in later life. There are ways to treat them with herbs, vitamins, and homeopathic remedies to prevent and treat complications. Meningitis is more dangerous, but rare, breast feeding prevents it, and most people have developed subclinical immunity to the most common kinds in their area by adulthood. It can be treated with antibiotics.

    Like

  91. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 11:50 pm

    Jack
    You’re right, chickenpox is nearly always a very mild disease that EVERYONE used to get before the vaccine. It was beneficial to get for permanent immunity and the training of the immune system. You can get shingles if you have had either the disease or the vaccine, but most people never used to get shingles even though they had had chickenpox.

    Like

  92. Karen
    March 6, 2015 at 11:56 pm

    Dorit,
    But it’s relatively new. Even a year and a half ago, you were arguing that anyone who had ever taken their child to a doctor for anything could be shown in court to be ineligible to take the religious exemption. You said that if they sought a doctor’s treatment for anything, that disqualified them from being able to ever take a religious exemption. it was all or nothing. You want a (prescription) antibiotic for an infection, fine, but it means you cannot then have a sincere belief that God is against your child (or any child) from getting vaccines. And yet Jesus said “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.”

    Like

  93. Gray Falcon
    March 6, 2015 at 11:57 pm

    Karen, people died from those diseases! Do you have no heart? No soul? Do you only care for yourself? What are you?

    Like

  94. reissd
    March 7, 2015 at 12:00 am

    A. I don’t want states to offer a religious exemption, though I would prefer a narrow personal choice one to none – because people rarely opt out of religious reasons and exposing a child to risk because of a religious the child did not choose is unfair.

    B. People don’t have a right to send unvaccinated children to school. That’s just not true under our constitution. Their rights to leave their child at risk of disease – itself not unlimited – does not extend to a right to risk others in the school.

    C. Since no vaccine is 100% perfect, the unvaccinated do put others at risk – the immune compromised, the few that suffer vaccine failure. Though it’s true that those children are the most common victim of their parents’ error.

    D. I’m sorry you feel that diseases that killed thousands before vaccines – like Hib, polio, diphtheria – are mild. I do not. Here is a comparison of the risks of the diseases and vaccines: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/IMM52-cnt-l~MM52-cnt-l-comparison

    E. The immune system is not a muscle that gets stronger through exercise.

    F. There isn’t actually a good treatment for many preventable diseases.

    Like

  95. reissd
    March 7, 2015 at 12:02 am

    “Dorit,
    But it’s relatively new. Even a year and a half ago, you were arguing that anyone who had ever taken their child to a doctor for anything could be shown in court to be ineligible to take the religious exemption. You said that if they sought a doctor’s treatment for anything, that disqualified them from being able to ever take a religious exemption. ”

    No, I never said that. That’s just as incorrect as the rest of your statements.

    Like

  96. Karen
    March 7, 2015 at 12:23 am

    Dorit Reiss 1 year ago

    “How could it be found to be a lie? Any parent who’s willing to go to the trouble to make an affidavit of her belief that vaccines are dangerous could not possibly be shown to have been lying. How? By showing that she immediately went round to all the pediatricians in town to get double rounds of all the vaxes?” The form exempts those that have a religious objection to getting medical advice or treatment. One way to find a lie would be to show the parent got medical advice or treatment; the other is to show through testimony and other evidence that the parent does not have a religious objection.

    Like

  97. reissd
    March 7, 2015 at 12:25 am

    ” The form exempts those that have a religious objection to getting medical advice or treatment. One way to find a lie would be to show the parent got medical advice or treatment; the other is to show through testimony and other evidence that the parent does not have a religious objection.”

    To remind you, that refers to the specific California form. Here it is: http://eziz.org/assets/docs/CDPH-8262.pdf

    This form has specific language under the religious beliefs that says the person’s religion forbids medical advice or treatment. That’s not a general statement about religious exemptions, and taking it out of context this way is misrepresenting it.

    Like

  98. Katarna Witt
    March 7, 2015 at 12:27 am

    Karen-30% of measles patients have complications. Measles affects every organ system in the body. Permanent hearing loss and permanent brain damage can and do occur. Read about Roald Dahl’s daughter’s death from measles. And breast-feeding prevents meningitis? Tell that to all the parents whose kids got hib meningitis before the vaccine. I have to say, I’ve never heard of anything so nuts!

    Like

  99. Karen
    March 7, 2015 at 12:28 am

    But if the vaccine is so imperfect as to let the vaxed child get the disease. why do you think it would work to keep the other child from getting and spreading it? Why should the child who does not want it be forced to take a dangerous, ineffective vaccine?

    And we’ll see. The We the People petition in favor of mandates has gotten a little over 300 signatures in three weeks, while the one against has gotten more than 125,000 in four weeks. The American people are not going to stand for being forced to vax our children with the huge number of vaccines that would be required.

    Like

  100. Karen
    March 7, 2015 at 12:32 am

    Katarina,
    Many measles patients get bronchitis, conjunctivitis, ear infections, or diarrhea, which are usually mild and can be treated the way they always are. Measles pneumonia is usually viral and self-limiting, and if it is bacterial can usually be treated with antibiotics. Parents should be aware of this possible complication and be prepared to seek medical attention when necessary (which it usually isn’t). Parents should be aware that they should keep the measles patient well-hydrated and warm in bed for the entire illness, plus three weeks recuperation time at home to allow the immune system time to recover, to avoid secondary complications in those weeks. They should give vitamin A (which would prevent many possible complications, including eye damage) and not give any fever reducers, even though measles often causes a high fever that may last for three days. Not giving fever reducers will prevent the very rare complication of measles encephalitis

    Like

  101. Katarina Witt
    March 7, 2015 at 12:39 am

    Not sure which vaccine you’re talking about. Hib vaccine is 95%-100% effective; one dose of measles vaccine is 95% effective and two doses are about 98% effective.

    Like

  102. Chris
    March 7, 2015 at 12:43 am

    Ms. Witt, “Karen” is actually another one of Cia Parker’s sock puppets. The reason she uses sock puppets is that she has been banned from this blog many times.

    She used to be brilliant. She has a PhD in Spanish and was a lawyer. But as it happens she had a child later than average (I think in her forties). Then things began to slide, and she has made many claims that are unsupported. She claims her child had encephalitis, but never ever called 911 nor even took the child to a neurologist. She claims that vaccines caused her child’s autism and her own health issues. Except in other comments there is a family history.

    Basically, you are trying to reason with someone who cannot be reasoned with. Many of us who have dealt with mental health issues in our own families have urged her to get professional help.

    Like

  103. Katarina Witt
    March 7, 2015 at 12:54 am

    Thanks Chris!

    Like

  104. Lawrence
    March 7, 2015 at 2:20 am

    @Ms Parker – imagine all of that work (and three weeks missed from both school & work), for a disease that can be prevented with a simple vaccine….not to mention taking the chance for all of the “complications” that you mention.

    Like

  105. Finn McCool
  106. Karen
    March 7, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    Katarina and Lawrence,
    Not sure what you’re talking about. I have never denied that the Hib and MMR vaccines are usually effective. They are also often very dangerous. The Hib vaccine now causes peanut allergies in one in fifty (see Heather Fraser’s The Peanut Allergy Epidemic). The MMR often causes regression into autism and bowel disease in children who had been developing normally. We now have autism in one in 36 American children (U. of Minnesota 2013). Imagine the guilt parents feel when they realize they have destroyed their child’s mind and any hope for a future independent life because they just couldn’t handle his being sick for several weeks, just had to rob him of the benefits of natural measles because of the inconvenience of caring for him if he got sick. Breast feeding prevents meningitis in infants: just imagine the guilt of causing peanut allergy and possibly death in your child because it was so inconvenient to breast feed him longterm, just had to vax him and leave him in a crowded day care teeming with germs.

    Like

  107. Chris
    March 7, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    Mr. McCool, why on earth would we care about what Ann Dachel nor even Boyd Haley say?

    For those new to this, Ann Dachel is a “media editor” or some such at Age of Autism. This “job” includes her flooding the comments in news articles with her copious cuts and pastes of nonsense.

    Boyd Haley is a retired chemistry professor who jumped on the “tooth amalgams cause issues” in the 1980s/90s, and later strapped himself to the “mercury causes autism” crowd, which included selling an industrial chelator as a “supplement.” Something for which he got a warning letter from the FDA:
    http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm216216.htm

    One reason we know “Karen” is Cia Parker is that she insists vaccines contain peanut oil. It is just one of the reasons she keeps getting banned.

    Like

  108. Lawrence
    March 7, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    @Ms. Parker – again with the peanut thing? Vaccines have never and don’t contain peanut oil…and that’s just a fact.

    As to the rest of your rant, we’ve been over it hundreds of times & guess what, the facts still haven’t changed….you’re wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Like

  109. Lawrence
    March 7, 2015 at 2:17 pm

    And Ms. Parker – how does your “ideas” of peanut allergies square with recent research that shows that early exposure to peanuts actually prevents allergies?

    And, of course, you can’t / won’t provide any actual evidence that the MMR is linked to autism (regressive or otherwise), because it doesn’t exist.

    And then again, there is also this study:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25690930

    Funded by SafeMinds, no less, that found that the current (and past) vaccine schedule resulted in no problems in primates (as a follow-up to a previous primate study championed by anti-vaxers)…..

    Seriously, you have invented a reality, out of whole cloth, where you believe all of these issues exist, but in the real world, all of the scientific evidence shows that you have no idea what you are talking about – either you are lying consistently, or you are that delusional to believe what you say it true (when it is so blatantly not).

    Like

  110. Karen
    March 7, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    Oh, come now, Lawrence. More pharma-funded studies? Read The Peanut Allergy Epidemic and then get back to me.

    Like

  111. Lawrence
    March 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    So, please find the “Pharma” funding here Ms. Parker –

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1414850#t=article

    Like

  112. reissd
    March 7, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    Ms. Fraser’s book falsely claim that peanut oil was used in actual vaccines as adjuvants – it wasn’t and isn’t – falsely claims that sesame oil is used in vaccines used in Israel (it isn’t) and falsely claims that manufacturers could put peanut oil in vaccines without including it on the label. I’d say three false claims qualify for “three strikes and you’re out.”

    Vaccines do not cause food allergies: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.full.pdf+html

    Similarly, MMR does not cause autism – that was studied from all directions: http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/safe/research.cfm#02

    Like

  113. reissd
    March 7, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    The one that provides actual, peer reviewed data to support her claim – and that’s not you.

    Merck experimented with peanut adjuvants in the 1960s. They were never approved for use in the U.S.. They’re certainly not used now:

    “What are some examples of adjuvants?
    Aluminum gels or aluminum salts are the only vaccine adjuvants currently licensed for use in the United States. Small amounts of aluminum are added as an adjuvant to help stimulate better responses to vaccines. Aluminum is one of the most common metals found in nature and is present in air, food, and water.”

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/adjuvants.html

    Like

  114. March 7, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    Certainly not you Ms. Parker.

    Like

  115. Lawrence
    March 7, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    @Ms. Parker – making blanket, baseless assertions as fact may fly over at AoA, but in the real world, unless you actually have evidence to back up your claims (and as Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence), what you are stating are nothing but a pack of lies.

    Like

  116. Kevin K
  117. Kevin K
  118. Lawrence
    March 9, 2015 at 5:17 am

    @Kevin – besides rampant conspiracy-mongering, can you show any actual evidence that peanut oil has been or is an ingredient in vaccines?

    http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/tp/Anti-Vaccination-Conspiracy-Theories.htm

    Like

  119. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 10:25 am

    “I am first and foremost taking care of my own family. Everybody else comes in 2nd. Get it? My family first, then everybody else.”

    Then may I must assume you make sure your family is up to date with all recommended vaccinations, Isla, to protect them from the serious infectious diseases they protect against?

    Like

  120. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 10:27 am

    “There is a risk with vaccination, and if I choose not to vaccinate my kids because of that risk, that is what I am going to do.”

    Your evidence that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against would be…what exactly, isla? Be specific.

    I mean, you do have some, right?

    Like

  121. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 10:29 am

    Citations needed, karen. Your evdence that “The danger to children from vaccines is MUCH higher than the risk from the diseases, even if no one vaccinated for them” would be what, exactly?

    Oh, wait–that’s right!

    You don’t have any.

    Like

  122. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 10:38 am

    “You’re right, chickenpox is nearly always a very mild disease that EVERYONE used to get before the vaccine.”

    Karen, in the US alone prior to vaccination there were about 4 million cases of chicken pox each year–mostl;y in children–resulting in 10,000 to 16,000 hospitalizations and 100 to 150 deaths. By what rational argument could anyone consider this to be indicative of a ‘very mild disease’?

    Explain that one to me.

    Like

  123. jack mehoff
    March 9, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    I’m just waiting for the vaccine for a runny nose…..lol. Then we’ll hear statistics on how 1 child a year dies from too much mucus.

    Like

  124. Lawrence
    March 9, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    Actually, I’m waiting for the Pancreatic Cancer vaccine – a horrid cancer that has an even worse survival rate……

    Like

  125. Gray Falcon
    March 9, 2015 at 1:22 pm

    jack- Do you have anything useful to add to this discussion? Or are you going to continue to act like a petulant five-year-old?

    Like

  126. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    Jack, you still seem to be assuming that the number of annual deaths caused by a disease is the only metric speaking to whether or not vaccinating to prevent that illness would be beneficial–why? Surely you’re aware that preventing people from becoming ill, requiring hospitalization to treat that illness and/or suffering serious adverse consequences other than death are significant benefits in and of themselves?

    Like

  127. jack mehoff
    March 9, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    Then Surely you’re aware that if you line the inside of your house with pillows it will decrease accidental deaths greatly….or make it illegal to walk outside during a thunderstorm.

    The problem is that no medical treatment comes without risk. I said earlier how antibiotics almost killed me and the overuse of them is a threat to humanity. I can only imagine what the overuse of vaccines will cause.

    You people will do anything to line your pockets. It’s sickening and hilarious at the same time. My gallows humor is kicking in….but really…I would do anything to protect my children form the medical tyranny that is to come.

    Like

  128. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 2:50 pm

    ‘The problem is that no medical treatment comes without risk.”

    No one, however, is arguing that vaccinations are completely without risk: only that the risk known to be associated with routine childhood vaccination is far, far less than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

    “I can only imagine what the overuse of vaccines will cause.”

    What you can imagine isn’t germane to the discussion however, is it? It’s what prossible consequences you can provide credible and compelling evidentiary support for that’s of import.

    So…got ANY evidence demonstrating vaccines are being over-used’, in a manner similar to the over-use of antibiotics, which appears to be contributing to an increase in antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria?

    Like

  129. Lawrence
    March 9, 2015 at 3:04 pm

    @Jack – the “over-use” of vaccines will lead to disease eradication…….which will ultimately means we need less vaccines.

    Like

  130. Gray Falcon
    March 9, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    Jack, do you really think it’s honest to argue points that nobody has made? You’ll note we’re not saying things like “Why don’t you just let people drive their cars through other people’s houses?” Please extend us the same courtesy.

    Also, “You people will do anything to line your pockets.” is a false accusation. I suggest that if you wish to fight for the truth, not to use lies as a weapon.

    Like

  131. Amy
    March 9, 2015 at 4:23 pm

    Thanks for the informative links, Kevin, and hang in there, Jack, we support and agree with you!

    Like

  132. Gray Falcon
    March 9, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    Amy: Jack’s screen name is an obscenity. He regularly lies about our positions. Why would you support such a horrible man?

    Like

  133. Lawrence
    March 9, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    @Amy – “informative” is the last thing I would call those links, given how easily they are shown to be demonstrably false…..

    Like

  134. Lawrence
    March 9, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    @Amy – so which is it….is it peanut oil, aluminum salts, Thimerosal, too many too soon, the MMR, or any of the other number of hypotheses that the anti-vax crowd has to explain whatever myriad problems they ascribe to vaccines?

    Because the evidence exists that refutes each and every one of those ideas….but then again, the anti-vax crowd isn’t interested in facts, are they?

    Like

  135. Finn McCool
    March 9, 2015 at 7:01 pm

    Don’t feel bad Jack, Amy and Kevin, the same delusional people who say vaccines are safe also insist that everything below is safe too:
    • Mercury
    • Aspartame
    • GMOs
    • Fluoride
    • Atrazine
    • Glyphosate (Roundup)
    • DDT
    • Fukushima radiation
    • Statin drugs
    • Antidepressant drugs
    • Chemotherapy
    • Fracking chemicals

    You can’t reason with these people, according to them everything is safe.

    Like

  136. Finn McCool
    March 9, 2015 at 7:13 pm

    Sorry, they don’t think “everything” is safe. They think Vitamin C, midwives and medicinal herbs are all “dangerous”.

    Plus these:

    • Organic agriculture
    • Traditional Chinese Medicine
    • Chiropractic care
    • Food self-reliance
    • Preparedness (“preppers”)

    Like

  137. Gray Falcon
    March 9, 2015 at 7:15 pm

    Finn: Did we ever say that about all of those? Why are you lying about us? Is it because you know you can’t prove yourself with logic, so you have to rely on libel? Why should people trust someone like you?

    Like

  138. March 9, 2015 at 7:35 pm

    Conspiracy-BINGO!

    Like

  139. Katarina Witt
    March 9, 2015 at 7:36 pm

    @Finn-Did that come from “Anti-Vax 101”? I ask because I’ve seen in many times over on vaccine boards. You’re not even original, LOL!

    @Gray Falcon-Finn is just a tool.

    Like

  140. Katarina Witt
    March 9, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    Speaking of conspiracies-I saw Elvis today down at Walgreen’s!

    Like

  141. Gray Falcon
    March 9, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    @Katarina- I dislike the use of “tool” as an insult. Tools are, by definition, useful.

    Like

  142. Amy
    March 9, 2015 at 9:01 pm

    Lawrence,
    The question was not how many children died last year of VPDs, but how many of them had been vaxed for the disease, but caught it anyway from an unvaxed classmate?

    Like

  143. Finn McCool
    March 9, 2015 at 10:24 pm

    @Katrina
    I did get it from an anti-vax site and it was much easier to copy and paste so I did. So what?

    @Gray
    So you agree that GMO’s are bad for you?
    How about Aspartame? Bad too right?
    Tell me what you think about Chiropractors.

    Like

  144. novalox
    March 9, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    @finn

    [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 posts, or we can assume that everything that you have said has been a lie.

    Like

  145. jgc56
    March 9, 2015 at 11:38 pm

    “The question was not how many children died last year of VPDs, but how many of them had been vaxed for the disease, but caught it anyway from an unvaxed classmate?”

    Uhhh…no, that isn’t the question Amy. The question is whether or not evidence exists demonstrating the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against.

    So…got any?

    Like

  146. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 7:47 am

    @Finn- That you’re trying to change the subject does not help your case. If anything, it strongly suggests that you have no evidence to support your claims about vaccines, know that it’s the case, and that you are trying to bluff your way out of a situation you can’t handle honestly.

    @Amy- Far fewer than those who received the vaccine and didn’t get the disease when exposed. There are plenty of cases of defensive drivers being killed by drunk drivers, but he don’t hold that up as proof that drunk driving is safe.

    Like

  147. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 11:29 am

    @Gray
    Change the subject? I accused the pro-vaxers (you) as being the same type of person that also states that GMO’s and Aspartame are safe, and say that Chiropractors are Quacks. Then you said I was telling lies about you and damaging your reputation. So I gave you a chance to prove me wrong and answer specific questions and instead you did not answer the questions, so I can only assume that I was right with my original assumptions. Why are you ashamed of your views? Don’t tell me I am a liar when you don’t deny what I said.

    Like

  148. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 11:55 am

    @finn – not only are you off-topic, but you’ve done it by building a huge strawman….why don’t you go off and play with your anti-vax friends.

    Like

  149. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    “I accused the pro-vaxers (you) as being the same type of person that also states that GMO’s and Aspartame are safe, and say that Chiropractors are Quacks.”

    I’m curious about why you did this, Finn.

    Let’s assume (for the sake of argument) that pro-vaxers ARE the type of people who believe that GMO’s are safe, that aspartame at levels of exposure one could achieve as a result of eating foodstuffs where it’s used as a sweetener is safe, and that chiropractors are quacks.

    That wouldn’t argue that vaccines are not safe or effective, or that GMO’s and aspartame are not safe, or that chiropracters are not quacks.

    So what exactly were you trying to acheive when you made this accusation?

    Like

  150. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    Finn- I don’t have to prove you wrong. You have to prove yourself right. If I accused you of trying to make money for medical supply companies by raising the incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases, (the latest measles outbreak hospitalized several people), would it be up to you to prove that you aren’t?

    Like

  151. reissd
    March 10, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    @ Gray Falcon: the way the shill gambit works for anti-vaccine people the answer seems to be yes.

    Like

  152. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    @Gray
    I didn’t ask you to prove me wrong. You called me a liar, it is up to you to prove me a liar, so why don’t you answer my specific questions and prove I am a liar? You won’t because I was right, so please don’t call me a liar.

    @jgc
    If you indeed believe GMO’s and Aspartame are safe and that Chiropractors are nothing but quacks etc., it would prove my point.

    Like

  153. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    Finn: So, where did you bury the bodies?

    Like

  154. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    @finn – still woefully off-topic……

    Like

  155. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    Finn: “So I gave you a chance to prove me wrong” Now you’re contradicting yourself. I called you a liar because you made a false accusation. Now, prove that you’re telling the truth. Where the **** did we say all of those? All of those.

    Like

  156. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:04 pm

    You are the one who called me a liar. If you can’t prove it, according to you that is libel.
    You will not answer my questions to prove I am a liar, therefore, one can only assume you are the liar.

    Like

  157. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    Finn, you are a mass murderer.

    Like

  158. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:07 pm

    Why don’t you tell me what the false accusation was?
    You do believe that GMO’s and Aspartame are bad for you?

    Like

  159. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Gray, I will tell you that I have never murdered anyone. Now prove your statement or you are libel.

    Like

  160. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    @Gray
    You are acting like a petulant kid. All you have to do is answer the question and I will believe you. But you won’t do it, because I wasn’t lying was I? Pathetic.

    Like

  161. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:11 pm

    DDT is safe? Fracking Chemicals are harmless? Vitamin C is dangerous? We have never made those claims.

    Now, you called me a liar, it is up to you to prove me a liar, so why don’t you show me you never killed anyone and prove I am a liar? You won’t because I was right, so please don’t call me a liar.

    Like

  162. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    Still can’t answer the questions. Thank you for proving my point.
    You do believe GMO’s and Aspartame are safe and you do believe Chiropractor’s are quacks. My point is made.

    Like

  163. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 1:16 pm

    Yes, you’ve made the point that you are a conspiracy wacko…..thanks for that.

    Like

  164. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm

    And getting us back on topic – this article, again, proves the point:

    http://www.katu.com/news/investigators/Faith-healing-Idaho-laws-231233531.html

    Like

  165. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:18 pm

    I never asked you to prove it to me, I told you I would believe your answers. All you had to do was answer the questions. But you won’t.

    Like

  166. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    @Lawrence
    Conspiracy? You think health related questions has anything to do with conspiracy? What planet are you from.
    If you question vaccines you are a conspiracy theorist? That is a good one!

    Like

  167. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:21 pm

    Finn: And what point is that? Tell me something, why are you deliberately going off topic? Is it because you know for a fact that vaccines are far less dangerous than the diseases they prevent?

    Also, you haven’t answered my direct questions about us making claims about the following: “DDT is safe? Fracking Chemicals are harmless? Vitamin C is dangerous?”. You are, quite bluntly, a liar, because I can find nobody in the skeptisphere who will make those absurd statements.

    Like

  168. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    That’s what I said, you believe Vit C is dangerous, so I was right.

    Like

  169. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    Where did we say that Vitamin C is dangerous? Why bring that up in the first place?

    Like

  170. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 1:28 pm

    @Gray – he’s trying to pose what he thinks are “gotcha” questions….and the time and energy it would take to answer them, in detail, is just a waste of time, since he could care less what the answers actually are.

    Like

  171. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    @Lawrence- I know. I’m trying to get him to realize his dishonesty. That’s why I haven’t answered his questions.

    Like

  172. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    Wrong. It’s about credibility. If I believed the earth was flat you may not find me credible.
    You are the dishonest one Gray. You are not answering my questions because I am right. So you are being dishonest even now.

    Like

  173. liberty4all
    March 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm

    Dr. Profit has said on TV that vitamins are harmful to people.,,,,and we’re the conspiracy theorists????

    Like

  174. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    Why would I believe your views regarding vaccines if you believed GMO’s and Aspartame are safe? Or if you believed Chiropractor’s are quacks?

    Like

  175. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    Finn: Where did anybody say Vitamin C is dangerous? You’ve only managed to destroy your own credibility. Nobody is here to defend you. They’ve all left in shame.

    Like

  176. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 1:42 pm

    “If you indeed believe GMO’s and Aspartame are safe and that Chiropractors are nothing but quacks etc., it would prove my point.”

    Finn, WHAT point would it prove? You’re not being clear.

    Like

  177. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    @Gray
    I believe you. You love Vit C. See how easy that was? And I apologize for ever saying otherwise. I should have known you were a Vit C lover. Now answer the other questions, the one that you are avoiding.

    Like

  178. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    “If I believed the earth was flat you may not find me credible.”

    It wouldn’t be YOU I found less than credible–only your claim that the earth was flat, because of the existence of an extremely large body of evidence demonstrating otherwise. If you advanced any other claim I’d judge it on its own merit–i.e., on the strength of the evidence you could marshall in its support.

    See how that works?

    Like

  179. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    @Finn: What evidence do you have that vaccines are dangerous? Stay on topic.

    Like

  180. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    And for the record Gray, I don’t know anybody else that has been commenting, so I doubt they left in shame. However, I am sure that you have made your friends here cringe at least once or twice from your comments. Especially when you start with your very long riddles or when you bring up murder as and anecdote.

    Like

  181. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    @Finn: What evidence do you have that vaccines are dangerous? Seriously, stay on topic. If you do not answer that in your next three posts, I will take it as an admission you have no evidence, and have been flailing around desperately to avoid mentioning that.

    Like

  182. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:51 pm

    @jgc
    I call BS. If I believed the earth was flat, you wouldn’t believe another thing out of my mouth. As a matter of fact, the people here would be the first to bring it up. “Why should we believe you? You believe the earth is flat”

    Like

  183. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:52 pm

    Finn: Strike 1.

    Like

  184. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:52 pm

    @Gray
    “If you do not answer that in your next three posts, I will take it as an admission you have no evidence, and have been flailing around desperately to avoid mentioning that.”

    More childish games? You didn’t answer my questions in three posts so I will take it as admission that I was right. Thank you.

    Like

  185. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    Strike 2.

    Like

  186. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    @Gray
    I’m sure your friends here are embarrassed by the way you are acting right now. Or they are upset with you for keeping this conversation with me going. Why don’t you stop while you are ahead.

    Can’t wait to see what happens on strike 3.

    Like

  187. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    Strike 3. Did it ever occur to you that we might have believed you if we had evidence, Joe?

    Like

  188. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    Oh it hurts. Strike 3 – ouch.
    Did it ever occur to you that you that I was right? You should have just admitted it in the first place rather than play this stupid game.

    Like

  189. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm

    Finn; Sorry, unlike you, I have a job and a family.

    Like

  190. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 2:04 pm

    And anti-vax folks wonder why the vast majority of people think they are crazy…..

    Like

  191. Lawrence
  192. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:15 pm

    If you question vaccines you are labeled as crazy. Just as I stated above. Thanks for confirming.

    @Gray
    Not sure what your job or family have to do with making you afraid to answer a couple of very simple questions. Just more excuses.

    Like

  193. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    @Finn- So, you admit you have neither job nor family?

    Like

  194. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    I will answer your question. Yes I have a job and yes I have a family.

    Like

  195. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    Finn: And has that changed whether what you say is true or not?

    Here’s some advice. Read this page first, then come back here:
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html

    Like

  196. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    “If I believed the earth was flat, you wouldn’t believe another thing out of my mouth.”

    You’re wrong: if you provided credible and compelling evidence that the next thing to come oout of your mouth was factually accurate I’d certainly accept it. In fact if you could provide sufficient evidence that the world was flat to counter the large body of evidence that it is not I’d abandon my position that it is instead an oblate spheroid.

    One goes where the evidence leads, whether that’s where you want to go in or not.

    Like

  197. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:32 pm

    @jgc
    You already know the earth isn’t flat and there is no way I could prove the earth is flat so therefore you would not believe another word.

    Like

  198. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:32 pm

    What questions do you ahve regarding vaccines, Finn? Be specific: I’m sure they’ve been asked and answered many, many times before, and we’ll be able to point you to the answers you’re seeking.

    But if you somehow think questioning vaccines is of itself sufficient to undermine confidence in their demonstrated safety and efficacy, you’re quite simply wrong.

    Like

  199. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:34 pm

    @Gray
    No it doesn’t change one way or another. The fact is, you never answered those questions, and I stated I would take your word for it either way. So quit making this hard and just answer the questions.

    Like

  200. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    I’m willing to shown that I’m wrong, however, and all it would take would be a sufficient body of credible scientific evidence demosntrating that the earth is instead flat.

    Similarly, I’m willing to beleive that vaccines are less safe than currently understood or that a casual association between routine vaccination and autism spectrum disorders, allergies, diabetes, etc. does exist and again all it would take would be credible and compelling evidence demonstrating this to be true.

    What would it take to convince YOU to change your position regarding the ‘dangers’ of vaccination, Finn?

    Like

  201. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    @jgc
    Apparently you haven’t read the papers lately, parents questioning vaccines are vilified and anybody who comes on this site and questions vaccines is treated the same way. You must be living under a bubble.

    I don’t have any questions about vaccines. I already know they are unavoidably unsafe.

    Like

  202. Finn McCool
    March 10, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    @jgc
    I am not wrong regarding vaccines. I stated they are unavoidably unsafe and they are. I have a nephew that was injured by a vaccine. CK. Pox vaccine. I would have wished for him to get chicken pox before getting the vaccine that injured him.

    Like

  203. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:44 pm

    The problem with addressing your list is that it lacks sufficient detail to make any meaningful statements regarding safety.

    For example, when you ask if mercury is safe without you identifying what form of mercury you’re speaking of (inorganic mercury, methymercury, ethylmercury?) or specifying a level of exposure (in fact, you don’t specify exposure levels for anything on the list). Surely you realize that different forms of mercury display very different toxicologic profiles, and that the fundamental principle of toxicology is “The dose makes the poison”?

    Consider aspartame. Aspartame is simply a trade name for the molecule aspartyl-phenylalanine methyl ester. On ingestion it metabolizes to form aspartate, phenylalanine and methanol in a 4:5:1 ratio.

    Phenylalanine and aspartate are naturally occurring amino acids found in all proteins—to get the same amount of aspartate and phenylalanine from diet soda’s as you do from one 4oz chicken breast you would have to drink 18 diet cokes. Methanol is a byproduct of fermentation, present in any food stuff capable of fermenting: drinking an 8oz of orange juice will expose you to about 29mg of methanol, which is more than you’d be exposed to drinking a single diet coke (about 18 mg).

    So the amount of aspartame you could encounter as a consequence of a typical diet which included foods and beverages sweetened using it would result in a safe exposure, but if you decided to (and could manage to) shotgun a couple hundred 12 ounce cans of diet coke in a short period of time you’d have a problem.

    Like

  204. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 2:44 pm

    Finn: Read the link I sent you. Otherwise, I have nothing to say to you.

    Like

  205. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:47 pm

    “I am not wrong regarding vaccines. I stated they are unavoidably unsafe and they are.”

    Please define ‘unavoidably safe” as you’re using it here.

    “I have a nephew that was injured by a vaccine.”

    What injury do you beleive he suffered as a consequence of receiving the vaccine, and how have you factually established the injury you beleive the vaccine caused actually was caused by the vaccine (it is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procpter hoc logical fallacy)?

    Like

  206. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 2:48 pm

    “Apparently you haven’t read the papers lately, parents questioning vaccines are vilified and anybody who comes on this site and questions vaccines is treated the same way.”

    How am I vilifying you, Finn?

    Like

  207. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    So the amount of aspartame you could encounter as a consequence of a typical diet which included foods and beverages sweetened using it would result in a safe exposure, but if you decided to (and could manage to) shotgun a couple hundred 12 ounce cans of diet coke in a short period of time you’d have a problem.

    At which point, aspartame poisoning would be the least of your issues.

    Interesting note: There was an “experiment” by a mother intent on proving the dangers of the artificial sweetener. She fed diet cola to rats, ignoring the animal welfare issues (rats cannot belch, so they cannot drink soda), and not bothering with a control group. While a large number of rats that developed massive tumors, most rat lovers know that pet rats develop large tumors quite easily, and a control group would have had similar results.

    Like

  208. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 3:07 pm

    A couple hundred 12 ounce cans of water instead of diet coke over the same time period, and you’d be dead of water intoxication: the dose makes the poison.

    Like

  209. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    “Dr. Profit has said on TV that vitamins are harmful to people”

    Citations needed, liberty.

    Like

  210. Gray Falcon
    March 10, 2015 at 3:17 pm

    My biggest regret on this thread is not explaining the “ad hominem” fallacy to Finn in the first place.

    Like

  211. Lawrence
    March 10, 2015 at 3:28 pm

    @JGC – Dr. Offit pointed out that people were relying on “vitamin supplements” to attempt to deal with medical issues where vitamins were entirely inappropriate, plus, given the lax regulation of the supplement market, the consumer has a very good chance of not actually receiving the content they are supposed to…..I find it funny that anti-vaxers love supplements, but hate the regulations that might make those supplements safe.

    Like

  212. jgc56
    March 10, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    (channels best Emily Litella impersonation)

    “Oh–that’s very different. Never mind!”

    Like

  213. novalox
    March 10, 2015 at 11:11 pm

    @finn

    Thanks for proving that you admit that you have been lying to us the entire time and that we can consider everything that you said as such. We can also infer from your comments that you admits that vaccines are safe and help to prevent VPDs and that you have no such evidence to support your position.

    Also, thanks for admitting that you admit that you are a monster who wishes to let children have disease which can be completely preventable. You have blood on your hands and I sincerely hope you don’t have any children. If you do, I pity them.

    Like

  214. Smith
    March 11, 2015 at 3:04 am

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    Like

  215. March 29, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Asså wow… Gudomligt utförligt tips! Värdesätter skildringen:)

    Like

  216. March 15, 2017 at 9:06 pm

    Reblogged this on autisticagainstantivaxxers.

    Like

  1. March 4, 2015 at 11:09 am
  2. March 4, 2015 at 6:03 pm

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