CDC Experts Address Flu Questions on Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook Forum
Nov 16, 2014

FluEveryone 6 months of age and older should get a flu vaccine every season. This recommendation has been in place since 2010 when CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) voted for “universal” flu vaccination to expand protection against the flu to more people.  Since then flu vaccination rates have been gradually increasing, with the 20013-2014 season resulting in 46.2% off all people 6 months of age and older getting vaccinated.

While these rising rates are encouraging, there is room for improvement.  Last year, more than 105 flu-related deaths were reported among children, and nearly 60% of the flu-associated hospitalizations reported to the CDC’s influenza surveillance system were in people 18 to 64 years old.  Statistics like these serve as a constant reminder that the flu can be a very serious disease for anyone, including previously healthy adults and children.

This year we hope to do better.  If more people received their yearly flu vaccine, we could help reduce transmission of the virus and in turn prevent a great deal of loss and suffering.

To help educate the public about flu, the Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page will be hosting a three-day flu forum to include CDC influenza experts.

VaxYourBaby Cover Photo - No KnockoutEach day we will focus on a different flu related topic. We’ll discuss ways to help protect expectant women and infants too young to receive their own influenza vaccination.  We’ll also discuss various chronic conditions that can cause flu complications and make existing health conditions worse.  And we’ll even discuss the steps you can take to fight flu each season.

  • Log onto Facebook Tuesday, Nov. 18th through Thursday, Nov. 20th.

  • “Like” and “Follow” the “Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook” page.

    (To follow the page, click on the grey “Follow” tab in the lower right corner of the Vaccinate Your Baby cover image.  This will help ensure that the status updates  are delivered directly to your Facebook news feed.)

  • Post a question under the flu status updates and a CDC influenza expert will provide a response which will post as a reply comment on the page within 24 hours.

We hope you will take advantage of this wonderful opportunity to get all your flu questions answered!

For more updates throughout the 2014-2015 influenza season, subscribe to Shot of Prevention (a CDC Digital Flu Ambassador), and follow @ShotofPrev and @CDCFlu on Twitter.

CDC Flu Ambassador Badge FINAL 2014-2015


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138 responses to “CDC Experts Address Flu Questions on Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook Forum”

  1. Marlene Duke says:

    Flu deaths 1999-2006 ages less than 1 up to 15 years old
    1999=36, 2000=30, 2001=25, 2002=24,

    When the push for flu vaccination really began
    2003=136, 2004=49, 2005=58, 2006=62.

    The numbers of flu deaths were less before vaccination than after.

    Also read this: Influenza: marketing vaccine by marketing disease
    BMJ 2013; 346 doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.f3037 (Published 16 May 2013)
    Cite this as: BMJ 2013;346:f3037

  2. Chris says:

    Ms. Duke, Peter Doshi is not an epidemiologist. Also, your numbers are disingenuous because the CDC did not start tracking pediatric deaths until 2004.

    There is more about Peter Doshi and that article here.

  3. I thought I shared this earlier but I guess I didn’t.

    5 Seniors Die after Flu Shot at Assisted Care Center in Georgia

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/6-seniors-die-after-flu-shot-at-assisted-care-center-in-georgia/

    Be sure to do the research people. Investigate all sides of the vaccine issue & come to your own decisions on what’s really what.

  4. People are learning the real science.

    Health care workers are refusing flu vaccinations and hesitant to offer them

    http://www.examiner.com/article/health-care-workers-are-refusing-flu-vaccinations-and-hesitant-to-offer-them

  5. Chris says:

    Marsha, where is that verifiable economic analysis that shows it is cheaper to treat diseases instead of preventing them?

  6. jgc56 says:

    Marsha, from your linked article about the deaths at the assisted care center:

    “The facility is not saying they are related to the flu shot but we all know they are, and they know they are.”

    How do the speakers know they deaths are related to the flu shot–i.e., have have they demonstrated a causal association? Be specific. It’s on some basis other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, I would hope.

    “Let no one fool you. Do the proper reaeach for yourself.”

    By what rational argument does “Do the proper research” translate as “embrace uncritically anti-vax claims made in youtube videos while ignoring the large body of scientific evidence published in peer reviewed journals demonstrating the risks associated with vaccination are far, far less than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against”?

    Walk us through your reasoning.

  7. novalox says:

    Just got my flu shot today, unlike marsha, who apparently wants to see other people suffer from something preventable, I am trying to prevent the flu from going around.

  8. Jack Mehoff says:

    The chances of death by flu in my state for a baby is like .00001%. You people fear monger this crap for financial gain. You should all be ashamed!

  9. Chris says:

    Mr. Mehoff, please provide the verifiable data for that claim. Why do you think having a hundred children die from influenza in the USA each year is okay dokay?

    Why should we be ashamed? You don’t seem to care about those kids. Do you have PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers that the vaccine causes at least a hundred pediatric deaths per year in the USA? Until you post verifiable evidence that the vaccine causes that much harm, you are the one who should be ashamed.

  10. Lawrence says:

    @Jack – and the chance of a serious reaction to the flu vaccine is even less than that….

  11. jgc56 says:

    A few questions, Jack:

    What is the exact chance of death in your state for all individuals of any age (you do realize that we vacciante to protect everybody, not just babies, don’t you)?

    What would that chances of death by flu be, if we no longer vaccinated against seasonal influenza? (you do realize that one of the reasons the risk is low is because we vaccinate against influenza, don’t you?)

    What are the chances of death due to flu vaccination in your state–greater or lesser than the chance of death associated with flu infection (you do understand the concept of relative risk, don’t you?)

  12. Jack Mehoff says:

    There are 6 million people in my state. 101 have died from flu in 2013/14. Do the math….like .00001% chance of death by flu. If you’re under 65 add some more zeros in front. Oh and there are more deaths in recent years than going back 10- 20 yrs……so more flu shots equals more flu deaths….by your logic. I fully understand risk…..

    The vaccine is flawed. It doesn’t work. It causes brain swelling, narcolepsy, death, SIDs, GBS, …..shall I go on. Everyday I convince more people not to get a flu shot.

  13. Lawrence says:

    @Jack – so “everyday” you decide to put more people at risk? Do you know if they have any specific risk factors?

    Any how about providing some sources for your “claims” because we’ve seen them before…..but no actual proof.

  14. Lawrence says:

    @Jack – oh, and even the Cochrane Review calls the Influenza Vaccine “one of the safest on the market today.”

  15. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – “Natural News”, really?

    Here is some legitimate information for a change…

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/children.htm

    And you might note that the Nasal Vaccine variety (which is the recommended one for all children) doesn’t contain thimerasol anyway (never has).

    Try to get some new material, this old stuff is boring.

  16. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – you might also be interested in many of the links provided on the main page I linked to – since it shows the serious risks associated with the Flu in young children (with more than 20,000 requiring hospitalization).

    Do you consider that “minor?”

  17. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “Do you not care for Children Chris?”

    Uh, huh. Please tell me if that vaccine is on the American pediatric schedule.

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show any of the eight influenza vaccines approved for American children cause as much harm as influenza, which is about a hundred deaths per year.

  18. Pam Powers says:

    Nothing from the Natural News Lawrence. I guess you didn’t even bother to look.

    “And you might note that the Nasal Vaccine variety (which is the recommended one for all children) doesn’t contain thimerasol anyway (never has).
    Try to get some new material, this old stuff is boring.”

    Yipee, one flu vaccine without Thimerosal. What about Aluminum? And what about the other 80% of flu vaccines?

    You should start finding some better answers if you are so bored!

  19. Pam Powers says:

    Oh, so you don’t care for kids from other countries? Just Americans huh Chris?

  20. Pam Powers says:

    Here Lawrence, you put down the info because it was in Health Impact News. Here’s the source http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6342a3.htm?s_cid=mm6342a3_e

  21. novalox says:

    @pam

    Did you even look at your “sources”? Because they don’t say what you think they should say at all.

  22. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “Oh, so you don’t care for kids from other countries? Just Americans huh Chris?”

    That is not the point. It was one vaccine used in Scandinavia, and is probably not even used anymore. It has no bearing the vaccines being addressed in the above article, because the last time I looked the CDC was an American federal agency.

    Again, please provide PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any influenza vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes as much harm to children as influenza. A disease that kills about a hundred kids per year in the USA.

  23. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “Yipee, one flu vaccine without Thimerosal. What about Aluminum? And what about the other 80% of flu vaccines?”

    Can you count to five:
    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

    What about aluminum? How do you avoid the most common metal element on this planet’s crust. Obviously you have never had a skinned knee.

  24. Pam Powers says:

    Such stupid arguments Chris.

    Aluminum: A naturally occurring element that makes up about 8% of the surface of the earth and is always found combined with other elements such as oxygen, silicon, and fluorine. Aluminum is the most common metallic element in the earth’s crust but has no clear biologic role. Everyone is exposed to low levels of aluminum from food, air, and water.
    Exposure to high levels of aluminum may result in respiratory problems (aluminosis).
    Inhalation of bauxite (aluminum ore) fumes may cause pulmonary fibrosis.
    Aluminum in the bloodstream may lead to neurological symptoms and may be fatal!

    • Thank you Pam, again, for standing against deception & plain out lies.

      The ‘regulars’ here parroting deception need new material as people paying attention can plainly see. Our team comes in, usually, one or two at a time & kicks their butts, well, with fact & the real science.

      Still they lie, deny & apply standard tactics right out of the Vaccine Pushers for Profit & Parrot’s hand book.

      But thanks to those who care to challenge these regulars at these type bogus articles people & world citizens silently watching can see right through the treacherousness of these regulars parroting danger & helping to pHARM children. Knowingly or not this is an outrageous atrocity.

  25. novalox says:

    @pam

    Have you ever heard of the comment”the dose is the poison?”

    What is the LD50 ratio of aluminum anyways?

    Also, I guess since you think aluminum is poison, you don’t eat any food or drink anything, since they all contain trace elements of aluminum, with most food containing greater concentrations than what every can be found in vaccines.

    Your ignorance is showing, and you lack of science knowledge is evident.

  26. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “Aluminum in the bloodstream may lead to neurological symptoms and may be fatal!”

    And what way does have to do with vaccines? Are you saying that syringes are made of bauxite?

    Where are the PubMed indexed studies showing that influenza vaccines approved for children in the USA cause more harm than influenza, which kills about a hundred kids a year in the USA?

  27. Pam Powers says:

    Aluminum is a common, “natural” substance, however, it’s important to realize that it has absolutely no biological role inside your body and is, in fact, a demonstrated neurotoxin. Just because it is natural does not mean it is good for you, and yes,you should avoid aluminum when possible (very hard to do) and lets not forget, injecting it is a whole different ball game!

  28. Pam Powers says:

    Even a study in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, admitted that:

    “Aluminum is now being implicated as interfering with a variety of cellular and metabolic processes in the nervous system and in other tissues.”

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/97/3/413.abstract

    Aluminum is not only toxic in and of itself, but it also impairs your body’s ability to excrete mercury, and it impairs glutathione synthesis. As a consequence, aluminum will make whatever amount of mercury you have in your system — from eating seafood, dental fillings, vaccines, etc. — even more toxic. The problem, of course, is that U.S. regulators have once again thrown the precautionary principle to the wind, and have allowed this known poison to be injected into us and our children without proper safety and toxicity testing.

  29. Chris says:

    Almost twenty year article is not on vaccine. Do you now the difference in dose between food and vaccines?

    Try again. You were asked to provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers on influenza vaccines on the American pediatric schedule are more dangerous than influenza, which kills over a hundred American kids per year. Do you need someone to explain the difference between the words “vaccine” and “dialysis fluid”, “soy formulas” and “premature infant formulas”?

  30. Pam Powers says:

    “Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds … We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cmc/2011/00000018/00000017/art00011

  31. Pam Powers says:

    According to the FDA, the maximum amount of allowable elemental aluminum is 850 mcg per vaccine. How was this limit determined? The limitation of 850 mcg per vaccine is based on the effectiveness of the adjuvant and has nothing to do with limitations based on safety! So although 850 mcg of aluminum may be “legally” safe in a vaccine, this is based solely on the efficacy of the vaccine, NOT on any safety data whatsoever.

  32. Pam Powers says:

    The average aluminum content per vaccine ranges between 200 to 400 mcg, but if your child receives multiple vaccines at one time, which is common, the dose will rise much higher. Based on the number of vaccines given, children today are receiving 17 shots that contain aluminum, compared to four vaccines in the 1970s into the mid-80s. The milligram dose of childhood exposure to aluminum in vaccines has more than doubled in that time.

  33. Pam Powers says:

    The average aluminum content per vaccine ranges between 200 to 400 mcg, but if your child receives multiple vaccines at one time, which is common, the dose will rise much higher. Based on the number of vaccines given, children today are receiving 17 shots that contain aluminum, compared to four vaccines in the 1970s into the mid-80s. According to Dr. Ayoub’s calculations, the milligram dose of childhood explosure to aluminum in vaccines has more than doubled in that time.

  34. Chris says:

    Also, Ms. Powers that abstract says: “A number of substances commonly administered intravenously, including calcium and phosphorus salts and albumin, have high levels of aluminum.”

    A child needs to be six months old to get an influenza vaccine, they are much bigger than premature infants.

    Your next citation: “Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants: Are they Safe?”… I “love” the sixty plus dollar price tag.

    “Authors: Tomljenovic, L.; A. Shaw, C.” are neither qualified nor reputable. They are more of a joke funded by rich anti-vaxxers.

    Try again. This time with real researchers who are not funded by NVIC or friends.

  35. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “According to Dr. Ayoub’s calculations, ”

    Is that with or without the black helicopters?

    Another joke. Why are you bringing up these old geezers and worthless conspiracies?

    Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that influenza vaccines on the American pediatric schedule cause more harm than influenza, which kills a hundred kids each year in the USA. Why do you find that so difficult?

  36. Pam Powers says:

    Researchers have for years injected adjuvants into lab animals, specifically to trigger rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune disorders. Below is a link to a relevant study. What’s incredible is, given those known effects and the precautionary principle, that injection of adjuvants in vaccines has ever been allowed, especially in newborns, infants, babies and toddlers.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12086312?dopt=Abstract

  37. Pam Powers says:

    Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

  38. novalox says:

    @pam

    Again using discredited and unqualified researchers for your so-called assertions?

    You do know that your assertions are weak and do not say what you want them to say, eh?

  39. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – perhaps you need to brush up on your chemistry education…..aluminum salts isn’t “aluminum” and thimerasol isn’t “mercury.”

    Try to understand the differences between elements and compounds – or perhaps you also believe that table salt (which consists of two very poisonous elements – sodium and chloride) is dangerous as well?

  40. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers, rats are not human, plus Shaw and Tomljenovic are still neither reputable nor qualified.

    Again, the request is for PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing any influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA causes at least a hundred pediatric deaths each year in the USA, because that is how many kids influenza kills each year.

  41. Chris says:

    In addition the study you posted:
    Immunol Rev. 2001 Dec;184:184-202.
    Arthritis induced in rats with nonimmunogenic adjuvants as models for rheumatoid arthritis.

    …Was not on aluminum adjuvants, nor any used in the USA. Ms. Powers, have you ever read what you post, or are you just cutting and pasting from other websites? By the way the adjuvants were “Freund’s adjuvant but also mineral oil without mycobacteria and pure adjuvants such as pristane and squalene”, which are all oil based.

    Hello, Ms. Parker. Do we need to remind you again that peanut oil and other oils have never been used as adjuvants in the USA? Plus they are not aluminum.

  42. jgc56 says:

    “The vaccine is flawed. It doesn’t work. It causes brain swelling, narcolepsy, death, SIDs, GBS”

    Jack, your evidence that the current seasonal flu vaccince causes narcolepsy, Guillian Barre syndrome oand SIDS would be, what, exactly? Be specific.

    I mean, you do have some–right?

  43. jgc56 says:

    Pam, re: your link to Pandremix causing narcolepsy in children in Europe, you do realize that Pandremix has not be in use since the 2009/2010 flu season, don’t you?

  44. jgc56 says:

    Pam, direct question: Do you have any evidence that thimerosal or aluminum adjuvants at esposure levels acheivable by routine vaccination are harmful?

    Or does your entire argument reduce to “Ooooh-aluminum and mercury! Scary stuff!”?

  45. Lawrence says:

    @marsha – obvious to only the most oblivious.

    You have shown nothing but rank ignorance and a complete lack of science education.

    Notice who is providing real science vs. baseless accusations.

  46. novalox says:

    @marsha

    Ah, the resident monster and troll responds with more baseless accusations in order to cover up her role in causing kids to get sick.

    And your Facebook accusations and outright quackery would be laughable, if innocents were not actually hurt by your crass ignorance.

  47. Pam Powers says:

    Who is Ms. Parker? Chris?

  48. Chris says:

    Someone who is very ill and thinks there are oil adjuvants in vaccines.

  49. jgc56 says:

    Marsha: “Maybe even stupidly because they can’t or won’t do the research.”

    Marsha, I’ve done the research, and the existing body of evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the safety and efficacy of seasonal flu vaccines.

    Certainly you have never provided any evidence to the contrary, here in response to this article or in any of your responses to any other articles found on this website despite being asked repeatedly to provide support for your claims.

  50. jgc56 says:

    Pam: regarding “Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?”, the short answer is “No”.

    Certainly Tomljenoic and Shaw’s publication with that title provides no evidence this might be the case. ( For a discussion of how T&S got it wrong visit http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/08/and-global-warming-is-caused-by-the-decr/ )

  51. Chris says:

    “For a discussion of how T&S got it wrong visit”

    That is the third time today that link has been posted.

  52. Lawrence says:

    I guess it is true about anti-vax zombie memes – because no matter how many times their “studies” and “facts” are shown to be nothing but a pile of garbage & put in the grave, but they keep being dug back up and trotting around again….

  53. jgc56 says:

    It’s not surprising that the anti-vax contingent doesn’t let minor details like the fact they’ve been repeatedly shown to be false stop them from pulling the same old failed arguments out over and over again: it’s all they have to bring to the table.

  54. novalox says:

    @jg56

    Whenever an anti-vax troll posts the same old tired assertions, pseudo-scientific junk, and failed “studies” again and again to support their so-called assertions, I’m always reminded of a quote supposedly from Alfred Einstein.

    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

  55. Great work debunking the deception here Pam Powers & Jack Mehoff. Kudos to you. Truth, fact & evidence came through bright & clear for any watching who actually are looking for the real science. Thank you on behalf of children everywhere.

    This was just brought to my attention today>>>

    ‘Italy suspends Fluad flu vaccine from Novartis after deaths’

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30240620

    Then recently, too, which I posted earlier but want to be sure everyone knows>>>:

    Look up ‘5 Seniors Die after Flu Shot at Assisted Care Center in Georgia’

    Remember the 70’s when 4,000 claimed damage and/or died? That’s only those reported, not the ones who slipped through the cracks:

    The facts cannot be denied because they were recorded in the archives of history when this 60 Minute exposure aired years ago. Look up:

    ‘The swine flu fraud of 1976, on 60 Minutes’

    All the time many slip through the cracks. Source? Cite? Myriads of parents, siblings & world citizens through time, many of which experienced first had the fact injury & death are not rare.

    Please people, beLIEve no one. Do the research for yourselves. The children deserve no less.

    See my public wall for news & real science to share everywhere. Follow me on Twitter @mofmars333 See my Twitter page for a gold mine of information.

  56. Chris says:

    Ms. McClelland, after a court in Italy convicted several seismologists for not adequately predicting an earthquake, that is the last government I would accept scientific data from

    Plus, the vaccine that was suspended was only for the elderly, not children.

    Again, you need to provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any influenza vaccine approved for use on American children causes more harm than influenza, a disease that has been known to kill a hundred children in the USA per year.

  57. Lawrence says:

    @marsha – only in your delusional mind have you presented anything approaching actual evidence of anything….

  58. Lawrence says:

    @marsgHa – when was the last time you saw a psychiatrist? Because you don’t live on the same planet as the rest of us….

  59. Chris says:

    Marsha: “well, with fact & the real science.”

    What “fact & the real science”? Please post the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers than any influenza vaccine approved use on children in the USA is more dangerous than the disease, which kills about a hundred American kids each year.

  60. novalox says:

    @marsha

    It’s obvious to anyone with a rational mind that you do not have any evidence to back up your so-called assertions, and that you are resorting to false accusations and ad hominems to back up the lack of science behind your position.

    It would be humorous, considering the sad cadre of your so-called followers on Facebook, yet your position actively harms children and others.

  61. jgc56 says:

    Marsha, regaring your link to itlay suspending Fluad vaccinatiion, the link itself motes that no causal association between the vaccine and the deaths has been established. This cannot be considered evidence that the risks associated with the Fluad vaccine are greater than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to influenza infection.

    I previously addressed your link regarding the seniors who died at the assisted care center: the link you originally provided also states the deaths have not been causally associated with the vaccinations they received, and also cannot be considered evidence that the risks associated with the Fluad vaccine are greater than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to influenza infection.

    The opinion piece at healthimpact news–and that’s what it is, marsh, an opinion piece, states instead “The facility is not saying they are related to the flu shot but we all know they are, and they know they are.”

    To which the obvious question is HOW does the author, speaking for some unspecified “we all” know the deaths are related to the flu shot–i.e., have has they the existence of a causal association been demonstrated? It is on some basis other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, one would hope.

    Care to anwswer, Marsha, or will you simply continue to ignore direct questions?

  62. jgc56 says:

    Oh, and one more time:

    From Marsha’s post: “Please people, beLIEve no one. Do the research for yourselves. The children deserve no less.”

    I agree wholeheartedly: do the research yourself.

    Just be aware that “do the research” doesn’t translate as “embrace uncritically any and all anti-vax claims offered, entirely without evidence in support, while ignoring the actual body of scientific evidence published in peer reviewed journals which demonstrate the risks associated with vaccination are far, far less than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against”.

  63. Pam Powers says:

    Up to 13 deaths in Italy now caused by a bad flu vaccine batch. You never know what you’re going to get in your vaccine. Russian Roulette

  64. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – you wouldn’t want to let a little thing that facts or evidence get in the way of a good anti-vax rant now, would you?

    Nothing has been found, one way or the other, in the situation in Italy. The deaths have been reported, an investigation is taking place, how about withholding judgement until a cause is found?

    But then again, it’ll always be the vaccines with you, right? Regardless of what is ultimately found to be the cause…..

  65. jgc56 says:

    Pam, the agency in Italy that suspended flu vaccination is AIFA, and they don'[t agree with your claims that any of these deaths were caused by ‘a bad flu vaccine batch’.

    Instead, they’ve issued the statement saying “At this point, it is not clear if there is a causal relationship or a link to the vaccination. A full picture will be formed only after a full analysis of all aspects, including the general health of the patients, their ages and probable conditions they might have had.”

    So exactly what evidence are you aware of Pam, demonstrating a causal association between the flu vaccine and the deaths, that AIFA is not aware of?

    Be specific.

  66. Pam Powers says:

    “But then again, it’ll always be the vaccines with you, right? Regardless of what is ultimately found to be the cause…..”

    But then again, it will NEVER be the vaccines with you right Lawrence?

    If you have a better idea of what caused all 13 to die, please do tell. The only correlation so far is the flu vaccine and within a 48 hour period as well.

  67. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – if you bothered to actually read the articles, as opposed to whatever anti-vax group posted this on Facebook, you’d know the following:

    1) The age of those who have reportedly died is over 80.

    2) That particular type of Flu Vaccine is indicated for those who are already in “ill-health.”

    If, at the end of the day, it is found that the vaccine given was responsible (a bad batch, manufacturing defect, etc) – then I expect that it will be dealt with by the appropriate regulatory agencies.

    If, at the end of the day, it is found to be something else entirely, I expect that you’ll just ignore the results (since you’ve already decided it was the vaccine – proof be damned).

  68. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – see, unlike you, I reserve judgement until all the facts are in.

  69. Pam Powers says:

    Whatever Lawrence, if found that it is not the vaccine, then that’s what I will go with. But, I will bet you it is the vaccine! I guess we shall see huh Lawrence? I’m sure that once they find it is the vaccine, you’ll still come up with excuses, right?

  70. Pam Powers says:

    Maybe they shouldn’t be giving vaccines to 80 plus year old people who are not well!!!! HELLO!

  71. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – see, there you go again….jumping to conclusions before the evidence is presented. Seriously, do you even think (even a little)?

    And I’ve already stated (just above you, so I don’t know how you missed it), that if it is found to the the vaccine that is responsible, then I will also expect that the appropriate regulatory agencies will take action (since they are already investigating the situation).

    I, unlike you, keep an open mind (though not so open that my brain falls out, as the saying goes) – and I also recognize that in a older, elderly population, a lot of people are going to die – it is flu season, so a lot of them are going to be getting the flu vaccine anyway, so just by using a tad bit of logic, you’ll have a lot of people in an high-mortality population getting vaccines at about the same time a number of them are going to die of whatever else might be ailing them (including just old age).

    So, I don’t immediate say it is the vaccine, nor will I immediately discount the vaccine – it just takes a few minutes of rational thinking to understand that the situation is far from black and white and we’ll see what the overall evidence has to say.

    But with you, it will always be the vaccines, right?

  72. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – perhaps you’d put forth your plan for keeping that population from getting the flu in the first place (since the flu, among the elderly, is a real killer).

  73. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – that last post highlights your inability to think rationally…..because again, as I just stated, because the flu kills tens of thousands elderly folks every single year.

  74. Pam Powers says:

    Lawrence, “But with you, it will always be the vaccines, right?”
    I already answered that question, can’t you read or comprehend anything?

  75. Pam Powers says:

    Here’s what I said, “Whatever Lawrence, if found that it is not the vaccine, then that’s what I will go with.”

    Got it Lawrence? Do you understand?

  76. Pam Powers says:

    And I stand by my statement if you are over 80 and not well, you should NOT be getting vaccines.

  77. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – then please tell us how to prevent flu outbreaks among the elderly.

  78. Pam Powers says:

    Lawrence, the usual ways to prevent getting sick, and I can tell you from experience that giving vaccines to sick elderly people is not the answer.

  79. Lawrence says:

    “The usual ways?”

    And they would be what, exactly?

  80. Pam Powers says:

    Not getting vaccines, and whatever else you do keep yourself healthy.

  81. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – seriously? That’s your answer? These individuals are already elderly & unwell…..your anti-vax (and crazy) colors are showing.

  82. Pam Powers says:

    Really Lawrence? I thought you were a smart guy? You don’t know how to take care of yourself?

    Exactly, elderly and unwell, so they shouldn’t be getting vaccines. Vaccines should not be given to anybody with a suppressed immune system and especially the elderly. Your pro-vax (and crazy) colors are showing.

  83. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – I usually don’t respond to crazy, but this particular vaccine has been tested and screened in the population & over 65 million doses have been given with no serious side-effects.

    So, you prefer that the elderly take their chances with the actual disease? This is why you (and the rest of your ilk) are pretty much all crazy – and I mean certifiable.

    Any rational person on the planet would agree with me.

  84. Pam Powers says:

    Oh is that right Lawrence?
    I know a few elderly people that would disagree with you completely. They learned the hard way that vaccines taken when you are susceptible is not a good idea.
    You think using logic makes somebody certifiable? Of course, I should have known, you haven’t come across as being that bright.

  85. Pam Powers says:

    “over 65 million doses have been given with no serious side-effects.”

    You are certifiable for making a statement like that.

  86. Lawrence says:

    @crazypam – then prove me wrong with real evidence. Not the Natural News crap you normally look at.

  87. Pam Powers says:

    Why don’t you prove your statement?
    “over 65 million doses have been given with no serious side-effects.”

    There isn’t anything to prove. Just common sense and logic, and I am afraid you have neither.

  88. Pam Powers says:

    FYI, your website is down Lawrence. What a shame.

  89. Lawrence says:

    Your Sense is neither common nor much in the way of sense…..

    Unlike you, I’ve actually researched the vaccine in question.

    Go back to Natural News….

  90. Chris says:

    What website?

    Ms. Powers, please explain how possible manufacturing issues in an influenza vaccine for the elderly in Italy show that any influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA causes more harm than the disease, which kills about a hundred American kids per year. Plus provide the PubMed indexed by reputable qualified researchers to support your answer.

  91. Gray Falcon says:

    Pam, let me explain something to you. Would you agree with the mathematical axiom that given two real numbers, one must be greater than the other? Then, why you are asking me to do is ignore that one number (the number of deaths from the flu) is far greater than another (the number of deaths from the flu vaccine)?

  92. novalox says:

    @pam

    Shame that you would rather see people die from something that is completely preventable. And that shows how much inhumanity you and your anti-vax ilk possess.

  93. jgc56 says:

    “If you have a better idea of what caused all 13 to die, please do tell. The only correlation so far is the flu vaccine and within a 48 hour period as well.”

    So your claim is founded in nothing other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical falacy, liberally seasoned with a bit of “What else could it be?”

    Really?

  94. jgc56 says:

    “And I stand by my statement if you are over 80 and not well, you should NOT be getting vaccines.”

    Why not? What is your evidence that the risks to an 80-year-old in poor health associated with being vaccinated against influenza exceed the risks associated with that 80 year old in poor health remaining vulnerable to flu infection?

    I mean, there is some rational reason why you’re standing by that statement, it’s not just fear and loathing of vaccines–right?

  95. jgc56 says:

    “Not getting vaccines, and whatever else you do keep yourself healthy.”

    I’m afraid you need to expand on that “whatever else you do keep yourself healthy” with some meaningful detail, Pam, Exactly “what else” can 80 year olds in poor health do to keep themselves healthy, which has been proven to reduce their likelihood of contracting seasonal influenza?

    Be specific.

  96. Pam Powers says:

    jgc56

    “So your claim is founded in nothing other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical falacy, liberally seasoned with a bit of “What else could it be?””

    No, it is based on what has been reported by many different sources. If they were not suspicious enough to believe it was the vaccines, then they wouldn’t have mentioned it in the first place. We’d be talking about something else. I can only comment on what is being reported and that is what is being reported.

  97. Pam Powers says:

    “Why not? What is your evidence that the risks to an 80-year-old in poor health associated with being vaccinated against influenza exceed the risks associated with that 80 year old in poor health remaining vulnerable to flu infection?”

    It’s a known fact that vaccines should not be given to people with suppressed immune systems and/or other major health issues and furthermore, my own experience with two elderly people in my own family only supports that logic.

  98. Chris says:

    “No, it is based on what has been reported by many different sources.”

    Then you would be able to provide the PubMed indexed papers by reputable qualified researchers that the deaths of elderly in Italy shows that an influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA is more dangerous than the actual disease, the same one that kills about a hundred American children per year.

  99. Pam Powers says:

    “I’m afraid you need to expand on that “whatever else you do keep yourself healthy” with some meaningful detail, Pam, Exactly “what else” can 80 year olds in poor health do to keep themselves healthy, which has been proven to reduce their likelihood of contracting seasonal influenza?”

    What do you do to keep yourself healthy? I hope you’re not just relying on vaccines to keep you well. Try and use your imagination on what one would do to stay healthy and avoid the flu and colds etc.

  100. Pam Powers says:

    Chris

    “Then you would be able to provide the PubMed indexed papers by reputable qualified researchers that the deaths of elderly in Italy shows that an influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA is more dangerous than the actual disease, the same one that kills about a hundred American children per year.”

    I don’t believe the families of the people in Italy who died care about american children. The point is you never know what you’re going to get in a vaccine. Could be any virus or just a bad batch. It’s like playing Russian Roulette.
    Let’s assume the Italy deaths are because of the vaccine and was a bad batch. Well that same bad batch could have killed children in the USA Chris, since I know that’s all you care about.

  101. jgc56 says:

    “No, it is based on what has been reported by many different sources.”

    Which sources were these, and what exactly have they reported? The only link you’ve provided to date iss to a report stating that the flu vaccinations have not been shown
    to be causally associated with the elderly patients’ deaths.

  102. Chris says:

    “I don’t believe the families of the people in Italy who died care about american children.”

    So? Please read the title of the above article. It says: “CDC Experts Address Flu Questions on Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook Forum.”

    Now last I looked the Centers for Disease Control is located in Atlanta, GA and is part of the US Public Health System. They actually are one of the uniformed services of the USA. So that is not in Italy.

    Also note they are addressing the “Vaccinate Your Baby” Facebook forum. By definition babies and children are not elderly.

    So the subject of the above article are American public health officials answering questions about children and influenza. So obviously if you think that elderly persons dying in Italy pertain to the above article, you can show exactly how a bit over a dozen deaths with no clear association to a vaccine are related to the influenza vaccines approved for children in the USA. Because we are concerned about the health of our children in the third largest populous country on this planet, and we really need to know if it is better to let kids get the viral infections and be treated, or to prevent them with one of the several influenza vaccines approved for use.

    Now, where is that PubMed indexed evidence by reputable qualified researchers showing any influenza vaccine approved for use on children in the USA is more dangerous than the actual disease? A disease has that already killed five children this season, and about a hundred per year the previous two seasons.

  103. jgc56 says:

    “It’s a known fact that vaccines should not be given to people with suppressed immune systems and/or other major health issues and furthermore, my own experience with two elderly people in my own family only supports that logic.”

    Yes, but “people with suppressed immune symptoms and/or other major health issues” isn’t synonymous with people over 80 in poor health, and that was your claim if you’ll recall (“And I stand by my statement if you are over 80 and not well, you should NOT be getting vaccines”).

    If you want to revise your statement to align with current recommendations by the CDC, WHO and other public health agenices -to read instead “People with suppressed immune symptoms and/or other major health issues should NOT be getting vaccines” by all means join the rest of the pro-vaccine universe and do so.

  104. Chris says:

    “Well that same bad batch could have killed children in the USA Chris, since I know that’s all you care about.”

    It is a different vaccine not used in the USA. And it is obvious you don’t care about the actual lab verified pediatric deaths from influenza, which are much more than the unverified incidents in another country.

  105. jgc56 says:

    “What do you do to keep yourself healthy?”

    The question isn’t “What do we do to keep healthy though, is it? It’s what those patients could do, in place of being vaccinated, to reduce their risk of becoming infected by seasonal influenza.

    “I hope you’re not just relying on vaccines to keep you well.”

    Of course not: I only rely on vaccines to do what they were developed to do and demonstrably are extremely effective at doing: reduce my risk of infectious disease. the other things I do to promote personal health–eating well, exercising, etc., are demonstrably NOT capable of significantly reducing that risk.

    “Try and use your imagination on what one would do to stay healthy and avoid the flu and colds etc.”

    Why should I use my imagination, when you’ve tacitly claimed to know exactly how to reduce my risk of infectious disease to as great if not greater extent as vaccination reduces that risk? It’s your claim: support it. Don’t expect others to do the work for you.

  106. jgc56 says:

    “The point is you never know what you’re going to get in a vaccine. Could be any virus or just a bad batch. It’s like playing Russian Roulette.”

    Because of course in Russian Roulette there are extensive, validated and effective pre-release quality control protocols in place, and public heallth and regulatory agencies tasked with ensuring compliance with these protocols, to ensure that no detectable amounts of anything capable of causing harm (such as live cartridges) are present and placing the gun to your temple and pulling the trigger does not palce the person firing it at risk of an adverse event (like being shot) before anyone is handed that gun.

    Oh…wait.

    “Let’s assume the Italy deaths are because of the vaccine and was a bad batch. ”

    No, let’s not in the absence of any evidence whatsoever this was in fact the case.

    Got any?

  107. Pam Powers says:

    jgc56

    “Which sources were these, and what exactly have they reported? ”

    Fin them yourself if you are really interested. I found 10-20 reports on this around the globe.

  108. Pam Powers says:

    “Yes, but “people with suppressed immune symptoms and/or other major health issues” isn’t synonymous with people over 80 in poor health,”

    Yes it is.

  109. Pam Powers says:

    “The question isn’t “What do we do to keep healthy though, is it? It’s what those patients could do, in place of being vaccinated, to reduce their risk of becoming infected by seasonal influenza.”

    It’s the same thing.

  110. Pam Powers says:

    “Why should I use my imagination, when you’ve tacitly claimed to know exactly how to reduce my risk of infectious disease to as great if not greater extent as vaccination reduces that risk? It’s your claim: support it. Don’t expect others to do the work for you.”

    Yes, don’t expect me to do the work for you. If you don’t know anything about staying healthy, I suggest you find out. My few sentences here are not going to help you.

  111. Pam Powers says:

    “Because of course in Russian Roulette there are extensive, validated and effective pre-release quality control protocols in place, and public heallth and regulatory agencies tasked with ensuring compliance with these protocols, to ensure that no detectable amounts of anything capable of causing harm (such as live cartridges) are present and placing the gun to your temple and pulling the trigger does not palce the person firing it at risk of an adverse event (like being shot) before anyone is handed that gun.”

    It is risky as you have no idea what other viruses are in the vaccines. Could be just about anything.

  112. Chris says:

    Ms. Powers: “Fin them yourself if you are really interested. I found 10-20 reports on this around the globe.”

    So you have nothing. For all we know you are making it all up. You don’t care that influenza has killed five American children this year, and it may go up to a hundred again. Oh, this is what I found: Did This Flu Vaccine Kill 13?.

    Some key quotes:

    The Italian health ministry said it could not prove a direct correlation between the flu vaccine and the deaths. Only one autopsy has been definitive, and it proved that a 68-year-old man who collapsed 24 hours after getting the vaccine died of a ruptured aorta, not as a complication of the injection. The remaining autopsies have yet to be completed. “It isn’t possible to confirm a direct link between taking the vaccine and the reported deaths,” AIFA said in a statement, adding that more tests and studies on the victims’ medical backgrounds are underway.

    My late father-in-law died of a heart attack, it had nothing to do with any flu vaccine. As a parent of someone with a severe heart disorder I know that lots of things can go wrong.

    and…

    Fluad is not approved in the United States, according to Power. “More than 7 million doses of Fluad have been distributed this year worldwide,” she said, “with no safety signal detected.”

    So not a vaccine used in the USA. The parting shot:

    Rome’s mayor, Ignazio Marino, told reporters at a Monday press conference that failing to vaccinate is more dangerous than any perceived risks, joking, “I was vaccinated with Fluad, and I’m here to tell you about it.”

    So, Pam, you have absolutely nothing. Oh, and the other links to Big Pharma business sites include Novartis’ flu vaccine in the clear over 19 deaths, says Italian regulators. So, you really do have nothing.

  113. jgc56 says:

    “Fin them yourself if you are really interested. I found 10-20 reports on this around the globe.”

    10 to 20 reports in suport fo your claims that you are unable or unwillingly to produce is fucntiaonally equivalent to zero reports in support of your claims, Pam. Idnetify two or three, if you’re really interested in behaving in an intelellctually honest manner.

  114. Chris says:

    “Idnetify two or three, if you’re really interested in behaving in an intelellctually honest manner.”

    She also needs to tell us what this has to do with American children and influenza. Because failing to do so means she is going way off topic to divert from that real issues.

  115. jgc56 says:

    “Yes it is.:

    Citations needed: provide evidence that every person over 80 who could be considered in poor health is 1) immunologically suppressed and/or exhibits another major health issue, such that they are not suitable candidates for seasonal flu vaccination.

  116. jgc56 says:

    “It’s the same thing”

    No, it’s not. Your statement, after all, wasn’t there there were steps these patients over 80 could have done to simply keep themselves healthy, but that these steps would reduce their risk of seasonal influenza infection to the same or a greater extent than vacination demonstrably achieves.

  117. Pam Powers says:

    jgc56
    “10 to 20 reports in support of your claims that you are unable or unwillingly to produce is functionally equivalent to zero reports in support of your claims, Pam. Identify two or three, if you’re really interested in behaving in an intellectually honest manner.”

    If you don’t believe this discussion is going on in Italy, then what have we been talking about? Why are you in the discussion? Are you being honest? Denying that you know anything about it?

  118. jgc56 says:

    “Yes, don’t expect me to do the work for you.”

    I don’t expect you to do the work for me–i.e., to search for evidence that supports claims I’ve made.

    I do however expect you to do your own work for yourself, by providing evidence to support your own claims rather than make others go hunting for it when there’s no assurance any actually exists.

  119. jgc56 says:

    I belevie teh discussion is going on. I’m not asking for evidence a discussion is going on. I’m asking for evidence demonstrating a causal association ebtween the flu vaccinations the patients received and their subsequent deaths. Something that goes beyond post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacies, something more compelling than an appeal to “What else could it be?”

    So got any? Any actual evidence?

  120. Pam Powers says:

    “Your statement, after all, wasn’t there there were steps these patients over 80 could have done to simply keep themselves healthy, but that these steps would reduce their risk of seasonal influenza infection to the same or a greater extent than vaccination demonstrably achieves.”

    Keeping healthy reduces your risk of getting sick. Isn’t that obvious?

  121. Pam Powers says:

    jgc56, you’re really good at backtracking all of the time aren’t you? And you brought up the honesty thing and yet you are the one who is not honest. That is irony.

    “I belevie teh discussion is going on. I’m not asking for evidence a discussion is going on.”

    Then what was this?

    10 to 20 reports in suport fo your claims that you are unable or unwillingly to produce is fucntiaonally equivalent to zero reports in support of your claims, Pam. Idnetify two or three, if you’re really interested in behaving in an intelellctually honest manner.

  122. Pam Powers says:

    “So got any? Any actual evidence?”

    As I stated above, I agreed that I would wait and see how it plays out.

  123. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – you’ve offered nothing but baseless suppositions…all of them predicated on your own belief that vaccines are evil & unnecessary (and always at fault).

    On the other hand, I believe that we’ve shown an open mind to examine all of the evidence as it is presented to determine what truly in the cause of the deaths that have been reported. Is there a chance that it could have been the vaccinations? Yes.

    But it is also just as likely, if not more likely, that the cause was something else entirely. Until the facts are in, it is counterproductive and just plain stupid, to jump to conclusions, as you have done.

    You also seem to miss, entirely, the reasons for these individuals to have been vaccinated in the first place – first and foremost, that they are extremely susceptible to the Flu & tend to have very negatives outcomes if they do become sick.

  124. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – and I’ll also remind you that it was you & Marsha that came in here and immediately blamed the vaccine…..

  125. jgc56 says:

    ‘Keeping healthy reduces your risk of getting sick. Isn’t that obvious?”

    Yes, but that fact doesn’t speak to the claim you made–that .

    The relevant question is what evidence demonstrates keeping healthy is–in and of itself– sufficient to reduce one’s risk of contracting seasonal influenza to the same or a greater extent than being vaccinated against seasonal flu?

    That is after all what you’re trying to defend–your suggestion that people over 80 and in poor health would do better if they embraced “Not getting vaccines, and whatever else you do keep yourself healthy”.

  126. jgc56 says:

    What this (“10 to 20 reports in suport fo your claims that you are unable or unwillingly to produce is fucntiaonally equivalent to zero reports in support of your claims, Pam. Idnetify two or three, if you’re really interested in behaving in an intelellctually honest manner.”) is the statement that caliming you are aware of evidence in support of your claims isn’t equivalent to offering evidence in support of your claims.

    In fact, you have so far provided a single link to an article that noted explicitily a causal association netween flu vaccination and the deaths of the resident care clients in Italy has NOT been demonstrated. other than that your only attempt to defend this premise is to handwave and ask “what else can it be?”, followed later by a request we all simply assume that their deaths were caused by the vaccinations.

    You’ve made claims. You’ve failed (or refused) to support them. And yes, I’ll continue to make call attention to that failure. If you want to call it backtracking, feel free.

    “As I stated above, I agreed that I would wait and see how it plays out.”

    I can only take this as an implicit admission that “No, I do not in fact have any evidence that suggests deaths were caused by the influenza vaccinations they reveived.”

  127. Pam Powers says:

    Lawrence,

    “But it is also just as likely, if not more likely, that the cause was something else entirely. Until the facts are in, it is counterproductive and just plain stupid, to jump to conclusions, as you have done.”

    You are either a very dishonest person or just plain stupid. Sorry to be so frank, but you are really unbelievable. I have already stated more than once, that I will wait and see what happens. Do you finally understand?????????

  128. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – I understand quite well. I also understand that you came in here originally blaming the vaccine, do you deny that?

  129. novalox says:

    @pam

    Considering that you have repeatedly come in here with assertions and have continually failed to support them, we can all assume that you are lying and tacitly admit that the flu vaccine is beneficial for both children and elderly individuals.

    Also, your tacit hatred for both children and older adults has been noted. It will be a great shame to know that my taxpayer dollars will have to support you when you are older, since you seem not to care one iota for elderly individuals.

  130. jgc56 says:

    ” I have already stated more than once, that I will wait and see what happens. Do you finally understand?????????”

    Direct question, then, just to make I sure I do finally understand: Have you now withdrawn your claim claim that the deaths of the two men and two women in Italy was caused by the influenza vaccines they received, and stating that you understand that the cause of their deaths has not yet been established?

    A simple Yes or No would clear things up nicely.

  131. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – are you going to apologize now?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30316113

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