Which Do People Fear More? The Flu or Flu Vaccine
Oct 16, 2014

CDC Flu Ambassador Badge FINAL 2014-2015Yesterday was the day I had been anxiously anticipating for well over a month.  I took my kids to the local senior center to get our flu shots at the county flu vaccination clinic.

While most Americans are worrying themselves sick over Ebola, I’m more concerned about the greater risk of influenza.  See, I’m no stranger to the fact that thousands of people die from iFlunfluenza each year. In fact, I’ve already read about several flu deaths being reported this season, to include a person from South Carolina and a child from North Carolina in just the past week though these deaths won’t get the media attention Ebola does.  And while the flu may not be widespread in my local area at this particular moment, it’s just a matter of time.  The flu arrives every year like a tornado on the midwestern plains.  Sometimes you get a little bit of a warning, but regardless of whether you see it coming, it inevitably hits towns, schools and workplaces, hurting and even in some cases killing those who are not protected from its wrath.

Unfortunately, because I’ve had a child diagnosed with H1N1, met parents who have lost their children, know friends who have lost their neighbors, and have personally known a previously healthy individual who succumbed to influenza in his early 30s, I have a healthy fear of the flu (no pun intended).  Yet, it never ceases to amaze me that reasonable and otherwise intelligent people continue to reject flu vaccinations because they are swayed by unfounded myths or the sting of a needle.

Yesterday I realized that while my children understand the importance of flu vaccination, many adults around them still do not.

Here are a few of the surprising things I heard in just one hour of the day:  

As I explained to my daughter’s teacher why I was taking her out of class, she mumbled something under her breath about how she would NOT be getting a flu vaccine.  It wasn’t appropriate for me to address her fears at that time, or respond with resources that might offer her a new perspective.  Instead, I made a mental note to discuss it with her later but I left feeling disappointed that this teacher failed to see the value of the shot – not just in keeping my daughter healthy, but in also reducing the likelihood that she could pass the flu onto her teachers and classmates.  Even though my daughter was reluctant to get a needle in her arm, when she has had the flu mist in the past, she took the shot like a champ saying, “I know it’s going to hurt, but I really don’t want to get sick and I don’t want to get anyone else sick either.”  Even at nine years old, my daughter is beginning to understand social responsibility and the concept of herd immunity.

I overheard my 16-year-old daughter explaining to her friend that she was leaving school to get her flu shot.  “Ouch!” her friend grimaced, to which my daughter responded without hesitation, “Yeah I hate needles, but I don’t want to get the flu. Did you know that a kid already died from flu this year?”  To be clear, I did not tell her this, but I was surprised to realize that she was aware of this unfortunate death.  Teens often see themselves as invincible, but it’s our parental responsibility to help educate them on the threat of disease and the important role that vaccines play in public health.  I’ve shared both The Invisible Threat documentary and the PBS documentary Calling The Shots with my children, and yesterday I realized these films have helped get the message across.  Unfortunately, if parents rely on others to teach their children about the risks and benefits of vaccines, they may be mislead by the abundance of misinformation you can find on the internet and end up as young adults or parents who fail to get themselves or their children vaccinated.

Once we were at the clinic I heard the most unbelievable statement of the day. One of the administrators of the senior center walked by my 14-year-old daughter as she was getting a needle in her arm and commented, “Oh my.  That is one huge needle.  I’ve never seen a needle so big. Oh my that must really hurt.” I honestly couldn’t think of anything that would be more obvious NOT to say at a flu vaccination clinic. What was this woman thinking?  Then it occurred to me.  She wasn’t thinking at all.  She was probably so consumed in her own needle phobia to think about how her comment may upset a teenage patient.  I took the opportunity to respond by saying,

“Well, it only hurts for a second but it’s worth it to know we’re doing what we can to prevent flu.” To which I added, “I certainly hope that you’re getting your flu shot as well.  I mean, working here with elderly people all day, it would be horrible if you were responsible for getting them sick with influenza.  After all, even healthy people can die from the flu.”

Yeah, that may not have been totally appropriate, but I’m a mom after all and I know how to use guilt when I need to!

As I drove the kids back to school, my 13-year-old daughter, who has only ever been to the doctor for well-visits and never misses school for illness turned to me and said, “Yeah I hate shots.  But I can’t imagine how I could ever manage in my classes if I had to miss school because I got the flu. I’d probably be out for like a week.”

As I reflect on both the wise and worrisome comments I heard, I’ve realized that some people will avoid the flu vaccines because they are misinformed.  In those cases I would suggest they read Tara Haelle’s blog post on Red Wine and Applesauce that thoroughly debunks 33 myths that often keep people from choosing to be vaccinated.  But some people don’t get vaccinated because they suffer with needle phobia.  For those people I hope to share some good news.

First there is a non-injectable option called the nasal spray flu vaccine. It’s a perfect alternative for anyone afraid of needles because it doesn’t involve one.  And while the  Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) recently recommended it as the preferred flu vaccine for children between the ages of 2-8 due to its effectiveness, the vaccine can be administered to most people between the ages of 2-49, with a few exceptions.  There are also some promising developments that may help in the future.  The first is a device that could be instrumental in reducing the pain of needle injections and works by applying pressure and vibration while the needle is inserted in the skin.  According to a new study presented at the ANESTHESIOLOGY™ 2014 annual meeting, study author William McKay, M.D. explained,

“As many as 1 in 10 people experience needle phobia, which may have negative consequences, such as decreasing the rate of vaccinations and blood donation…Our early research suggests that using a device that applies pressure and vibration before the needle stick could help significantly decrease painful sensations by closing the ‘gate’ that sends pain signals to the brain.”

And scientists across the globe are currently working to develop a universal flu vaccine that may one day eliminate the need for people to be re-vaccinated year after year.

There is so much to be hopeful for, and yet so much to still be done to help improve this year’s vaccination rates over last year’s.  So let this be a reminder to you.

Have you protected yourself from the flu this season?  When you do, be sure to take a #vaxselfie, as Nurses Who Vaccinate encourages us all to do.  Then be sure to share it on social media.  Or better yet, send it to us at info@vaccinateyourfamily.org and we’ll post it on our social media pages as well.  Let’s show the world how to get it done!



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199 responses to “Which Do People Fear More? The Flu or Flu Vaccine”

  1. Lawrence says:

    Definitely the Flu – even if you don’t know your history, having suffered through a couple of bouts of it in the past, there is no way that I would take the chance going “au naturale” against the flu – I get my vaccine as soon as it is available each year (same for the wife and kids as well).

  2. Liz says:

    Definitely the flu vaccine. I take natural remedies when I have the flu, and just stay in bed and drink hot tea in addition to the remedies. I have had the flu four times, and it was awful, but I’d rather deal with that than the awful consequences the vaccine often has.

    The teacher referred to in the article has no obligation to get the flu vaccine, as she evidently fears the vaccine more than the disease, just as I and many more do. Those who fear the disease more can get the vaccine, their choice, and they will live with the consequences either way, good or bad. Any of her students who fear the disease more are free to get the vaccine. No one has the right to force anyone to do something that might kill or disable them, no matter how rare they believe that outcome would be.

  3. Lawrence says:

    @Liz – (you’re sounding an awful lot like Ms. Parker) why do you believe the flu vaccine has serious complications? What is the one piece of real evidence that convinced you (and I mean real, not stories you read on the Internet)?

    Even the Cochrane Review, which had issues with the overall effectiveness of the flu vaccine, points out that it is considered one of the safest vaccines on the market….and tens of thousands of people do die of the flu every year – mostly from complications like pneumonia, for instance.

    Your ability understand risk vs. benefits seems to be completely out of whack….

  4. jgc56 says:

    Robert, what “unfounded drivel” do you beleive is being spread here? Be specific.

  5. jgc56 says:

    LIZ, exactly what ‘awful consequences’ are you attributing to the receipt of a seasonal flu vaccination, and how have you factually established that those consequences actually are actually caused by the vaccine? Be specific.

  6. Chris says:

    “Those who fear the disease more can get the vaccine, their choice, and they will live with the consequences either way, good or bad.”

    Liz, or is it “Dina” now. How about you provide the actual PubMed indexed studies showing the flu vaccine causes more harm than influenza, instead of your usual fact free platitudes.

  7. Jack Mehoff says:

    The flu vaccine is the worst vaccine out there. If there’s one vaccine you should skip this is the one! You take it year after year…the damage is cumulative.

  8. Matt Herminghaus says:

    I fear the vaccine more.
    Ever since I stopped getting the flu vaccine about 15 years ago I haven’t ever gotten the flu. I’m not going to change it up now!
    I’ve heard that the vaccine is not very effective and also has ingredients which can contribute to Alzheimer’s. No thank you.

  9. jgc56 says:

    Jack, what damage do you beleive the flu vaccine causes, what evidence is there that the flu vaccine actually causes the damage you think it does, and what evidence demonstrate that that is cumulative over a period of years?

    Be specific.

  10. jgc56 says:

    Where did you hear that the vacine is not very effective, and that it contains ingredients whcih contribute to Alzheimers, Matt? I’d like to see the evidence–assuming there is any–supporting these extraordinary claims.

  11. Chris says:

    Mr. Mehoff: “The flu vaccine is the worst vaccine out there.”

    Citation needed. Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that there is more damage from the vaccine than the actual disease.

    Mr. Herminghaus: “I’ve heard that the vaccine is not very effective and also has ingredients which can contribute to Alzheimer’s.”

    Then you should be quite willing to provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers about the connection of the vaccine to Alzheimer’s.

    Now, are these a new collection of sock puppets? Similar to Liz/Dina and the rest? Or just random people who think we will believe anything they say, even if they just make it up.

  12. Jack Mehoff says:

    In its July 2001 issue of Pediatrics, the AAP released their official position on mercury, “Mercury in all its forms is toxic to the fetus and children, and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to the extent possible to pregnant women and children as well as the general population.”

    That’s just mercury. Nevermind formaldehyde, aluminum, etc. Heavy metals accumulate in the body.

    I support good vaccine science, but the truth in my state is that I have a .0001%(math based on my state stats last year) chance of death by flu. I’ll take my chances.

  13. Jack Mehoff says:

    The CDC has claimed that flying ebola into our country is necessary to stop the spread of ebola….so everyone go out and get your flu shot just like they say.

  14. Chris says:

    Mr. Mehoff: “That’s just mercury. Nevermind formaldehyde, aluminum, etc. Heavy metals accumulate in the body”

    Oooh, a thirteen year old report. Then just get the very available thimerosal free influenza vaccines. Also, you might want to tell your body to stop producing formaldehyde. Plus, one what planet is aluminum a heavy metal?

    Again, please produce the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers that the vaccine is worse than influenza.

    “The CDC has claimed…”

    Link to the official CDC statement, not a scaremongering article by a random self-appointed “reporter.” Plus, ebola is not influenza. You are in more danger from influenza than ebola.

    So whose sock puppet are you? And why do you think we will believe the random bits you just make up? Like what you claim is a quote from the AAP. I looked for it and here are the results:

    No results found for “Mercury in all its forms is toxic to the fetus and children, and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to” site:http://www.aap.org/.


    No results found for “Mercury in all its forms is toxic to the fetus and children, and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to” site:http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/.

    Stop making stuff up. Stop changing your username. Please post real citations.

  15. jgc56 says:

    “That’s just the mercury.”

    Good thing there’s no mercury in vaccines, then, isn’t it. There is thimerosal inmulti-dose vials, but I’m sure you’ll agree that’s not the same thing, anymore than table salt and metallic sodium are the same thing.

    “Nevermind formaldehyde, aluminum, etc.”

    What evidence demonstrates that at levels of exposure achievable as a consequence of routine vacination formaldehyde or aluminum are harmful to any extent? Be specific.

    To put it in context, consider the following:

    Aluminum is one of the most ubiquitous elements on the planet and infants are exposed daily to much, much greater amounts of aluminum from dietary and environmental sources than they could possibly receive as the result of immunization. To put it in perspective, over the first 6 months of life an infant could be exposed to a maximum of 2.5 mg of aluminum as the result of routine immunizations. During those same 6 months it would be exposed to 10 mgs of aluminum if it’s breast feeding; if receiving formula instead we’re talking about a 40 mgs of aluminum, and as much as 120 mgs if it’s receiving a soy-based formula.

    The theoretical maximum exposure to formaldehyde from immunization would be at the scheduled 6 month visit, when the child could potentially receive up to 4 immunizations (HepB, DTaP, IPV and possibly influenza). This would expose them to around 310 ug of formaldehyde. That’s less formaldehyde than you’re exposed to simply as part of a normal diet (10,000 to 20,000 ug/daily) and in fact less than you’ll receive when by eating a single apple, (between 430 and 1100 ug formaldehyde).

    Then there’s the fact that our bodies produce formaldehyde constantlyas a result of DNA demethylation and other biological processes. Our normal, naturally produced blood concentrations are generally between 2 and 3 ug of formaldehyde/mL of blood–which given the body’s blood volume makes any increased exposure due to vacination insignificant.

  16. Jack Mehoff says:

    Here it is


    It’s under the conclusions sections.

    My point about the CDC and ebola is that they have an almost 7 billion dollar budget and they way the have handled ebola is downright laughable. They are just another defunct and useless govt agency. They have lost the credibility with the American people. They are a pimp for big pharma.

    Now, why don’t you get two flu shots this year for good measure. Have a nice day.

  17. Matt Herminghaus says:

    Hello Chris, I am not sure what PubMed indexed studies are? I am just stating what I have seen on the news and read in the paper. There has been a lot of coverage in the last month or so.

  18. Chris says:

    Good, thank. Now here is the actual paragraph:

    Mercury in all of its forms is toxic to the fetus and children, and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to the extent possible to pregnant women and children as well as the general population. Pediatricians can contribute to the effort of decreasing the amount of mercury in the waste stream by phasing out mercury-containing devices, such as thermometers and sphygmomanometers, from their offices and other medical facilities and encouraging parents to remove mercury thermometers from their homes.

    And the bit about vaccines: As a precautionary measure, ethylmercury in vaccines is being reduced or eliminated from vaccine preparations as quickly as manufacturers can alter their production processes and obtain FDA approval for the reformulated materials. Currently, all vaccines in the recommended childhood immunization schedule do not contain thimerosal as a preservative.

    And the last sentence:

    The FDA is working with the pharmaceutical industry and the medical community to decrease or eliminate exposures to mercury in vaccines and other products.

    You should try reading the document with better reading comprehension.

    And that is why half of the flu vaccine supply is thimerosal free.

  19. Chris says:

    Matt: ” I am not sure what PubMed indexed studies are?”

    I have to run. Have you ever heard of “Google”?

  20. Matt Herminghaus says:

    If I were interested in knowing, I would Google it. You didn’t give me any reason and in fact are only giving me attitude.

  21. Dina says:

    It’s still my choice. I am not afraid of the flu, miserable as it is for a few days. I am afraid of the vaccine.

  22. Dina says:

    Mercury is still in most injected flu vaccines. You can ask for one without mercury, but most people are unaware that it’s still in something like 80% of flu shots. Many states don’t even require that children or pregnant women only receive a mercury-free one.

  23. novalox says:


    [citation needed] for you r assertions within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are lying to us and that anything you have stated should be considered as such,


    Please show where in Chris’ post is she showing attitude towards you, because the only people who are showing attitude are you and the anti-vax trolls.

  24. Chris says:

    Matt, click on the following: http://www.pubmed.gov

    That is an index of scientific research. We specify it because news reports are very often wrong. So just go to and find the definitive research that the influenza vaccine causes Alzheimer’s. If I showed “attitude” it was because I was running out the door.

    I still can’t believe that you did not google it, and just want us to feed you with answers. I will give you the reason: because it is a source that we can mostly be sure that it is not made up by self-proclaimed “reporters.” We are not ones to blindly trust anyone who does not have verifiable scientific evidence.

    Hello, Dina/Liz… or should we say Ms. Parker? You are back to changing your name, and addressing people with just their first initial. Whatever. You have also been told that even if slightly more than half of the influenza vaccines still contain thimerosal, it is too small of an amount.

    So all of you folks in your various forms: provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that there is more harm from any of the influenza vaccines licensed in the USA than there is from the disease. A disease that killed over a hundred children during the last flu season. Provide evidence the vaccine caused that many deaths.

  25. Chris says:

    I should also add, Mr. Herminghaus, when you make a claim like ” the vaccine is not very effective and also has ingredients which can contribute to Alzheimer’s”, you are expected to support that claim with real verifiable scientific evidence. If you don’t your comments will be dismissed.

  26. Michael says:

    I’m more afraid of the Flu Vaccine

  27. jgc56 says:

    “Mercury is still in most injected flu vaccines.”

    That’s inaccurate, dina. Thimerosal is used as a preservative in some multi-dose vials, but thimerosal isn’t mercury any more than table salt is metallic sodium.

    Unless you have credible evidence that thimerosal (not mercury) at exposure levels achievable by receipt of the flu vaccine is harmful I am at a loss to understand the basis for your concern.

    So–got any?

  28. jgc56 says:

    Why are you more afraid of the flu vaccine, michael? what evidence suggests that the risks associated with being vaccinated against the flu exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection?

  29. Michael says:

    Jgc56,,,,Thimerosal does contain organomercury a mercury compound

  30. jgc56 says:

    No Michael, it doesn’t contain an organomercury compound, it is an organomercury compound: an organic molecule that incorporates a single mercury atom.

    That doesn’t mean that it’s the same thing as mercury or that it exhibits the same or a similar chemical, biological or toxicologic profile as mercury, any more than the fact that table salt contains an atom each of sodium or an atom of mercury means table salt is sodium or chlorine or exhibits the same or a similar chemical, biological or toxicologic profile as sodium or chlorine.

    I’ll note that the FDA webpage you provided the link for states

    “In 2004, the IOM’s Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its final report, examining the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccines and thimerosal containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. In this report, the committee incorporated new epidemiological evidence from the U.S., Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, and studies of biologic mechanisms related to vaccines and autism since its report in 2001. The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only. Further, the committee stated that the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative, and that widespread rejection of vaccines would lead to increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough and Hib bacterial meningitis.”

    I’ll also note you didn’t respond to the question I directed to you: what evidence suggests that the risks associated with being vaccinated against the flu exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection?

  31. novalox says:


    So, I guess you don’t eat or use table salt in any form? Because it contains sodium, an unstable metal that has the nasty habit of burning and exploding when exposed to air, and chlorine, a poisonous gas. Yet, when combined into a compound, it is something that we can consume safely.

  32. Michael says:

    jgc56,,,according to the FDA,,,in the very first sentence,,”Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial).” the generic term,,Ethylmercury (sometimes ethyl mercury) is a cation composed of an ethyl group bound to a mercury(II) center,,sorry,,,as far as your question directed toward me,,,why must you know why I fear the Vaccine more than the virus, I believe it does more damage than good,especially now that more and more cases are being awarded to people,,getting the flu is actually fairly rare considering there are a number of illnesses with flu-like symptoms and it is very hard to verify without specific testing

  33. jgc56 says:

    “why must you know why I fear the Vaccine more than the virus”

    Because if your fear is rational–if you can identify credible evidence that the risks association with the vaccine exceed the risks associated with being vaccinated against seasonal flu–not only should I alter my position but I should advocate the FDA, CDC, etc. revise their recommendation that people be vaccinated against seasonal flu.

    Of course, the opposite holds true as well–if your fears are not rational you should alter your position as well. I know which alternative I’m betting on at the moment.

    “I believe it does more damage than good”

    We get that. What I don’t get is why you believe that. So far the only argument you’ve offered reduces to “Oooooh, mercury! Scary stuff!”

    “especially now that more and more cases are beingI”

    Citations needed. I’m unaware that this is occurring. IF you’re referring to awards by the NVICP, I’ll remind you that the majority of the people who have been compensated by the NVICP were compensated for table injuries, where no finding that the vaccines caused the injuries claimed is required or made.

    “I do not eat iodized salt”

    Do you eat non-iodized salt? If not, is that because you believe it will react explosively should you add it to your soup or that you may be overcome by poisonous gas?

    • Michael says:

      It doesn’t matter if it is rational for you or not,all that matters is if my rationalisation is justified for me,not you,,I never said that Thimerosal in the Vaccines were my reasons now did I,,YOU said there is no mercury in it,,,I use homeopathic alternatives to keep me well,why would i want to put something in me that may do more harm than good,just because it works for you does not mean it will work good for me,,I’ll take my chances thank you

  34. jgc56 says:

    “It doesn’t matter if it is rational for you or not,all that matters is if my rationalisation is justified for me,not you,,”

    Your reasons are either rational or they are not.

    “I never said that Thimerosal in the Vaccines were my reasons now did I”

    That’s what started our exchange, isn’t it–my noting that while I get you fear the vaccines more than the flu you haven’t explained why this is so. You still haven’t. Surely you’re able to articulate the reasons.

    “YOU said there is no mercury in it,,”

    Actually my response to Dina’s unsupported claim “Mercury is still in most injected flu vaccines.” was (direct quote) “That’s inaccurate, dina. Thimerosal is used as a preservative in some multi-dose vials, but thimerosal isn’t mercury any more than table salt is metallic sodium.”

    “I use homeopathic alternatives to keep me well,why would i want to put something in me that may do more harm than good,just because it works for you does not mean it will work good for me,,I’ll take my chances thank you”

    Why do you believe plain water or sugar pills have the ability to keep anyone well?

    • Michael says:

      ‘Why do you believe plain water or sugar pills have the ability to keep anyone well?’You assume alot,it does not matter what anyone presents to you,you will find fault with it,,such as i will with anything you try to sway my judgement get over yourself,,my original comment was an answer to the blogger question in the title,and as you have proven over the course of a yr,NOTHING will sway you because you refuse to except anything that goes against what YOU believe,,Fact,does vaccines help people,,yes,,,Fact,does vaccines harm people,,yes,do i care if you vaccinate?no,,,do I care if you don’t,,no,do i care if someone is harmed from a virus,yes,,do I care if someone is harmed by a man made vaccine more?yes,,bottom line is,you will never understand until you personally are harmed by what someone else says is good for you,

  35. Chris says:

    Michael, then get one of the many flu vaccines that does not have thimerosal. Problem solved.

    Have you looked at completing your neglected education at your local community college? Please understand that while your are welcome to your own opinions, we will have to look at them through the lens of your lack of education, that you go on fear instead of information and you will not accept any new information.

    Education can help you deal with your fears. It is up to you to take that step to learn. And to actually go to a library to use their computers instead of the broken keyboard of your phone. I say this as someone who has a dumb phone and cannot access the internet without an actual computer and wifi signal.

    • Michael says:

      I don’t care if it has it in it or not,that ain’t the point,my choice,not yours

    • Michael says:

      also,,if you feel that i’m not educated enough to hold a conversation with,,don’t address me in conversation,,it is rather easy to just keep your thoughts to yourself,

  36. jgc56 says:

    “You assume alot,it does not matter what anyone presents to you,you will find fault with it”
    That simply isn’t true. Whether or not I find fault with an argument is wholly dependent on whether or not there is fault there to be found. Provide actual evidence demonstrating that the risks associated with seasonal flu vaccines are greater than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by influenza and I’ll reverse my position. One goes where the data leads, whether that is one’s preferred destination or not.

    With respect to homeopathic remedies being plain water or sugar tablets, that isn’t an assumption: it’s demonstrable fact. Homeopathic remedies are prepared by extreme serial dilution– typical dilution, for example, would be 30C, representing thirty serial 1 to 100 dilutions (with, of course, vigorous shaking or as Hanneman recommended banging against a bible, at each stage). A such dilutions—far in excess of Avogadro’s number, no molecule of the original presumed active ingredient will be present in the final product.

    “my original comment was an answer to the blogger question in the title”
    Yes: you stated you fear the vaccine more than the flu. What you’ve been unable to do is explain why that is the case, which I find puzzling. Unless it’s simply a phobia, like fear of heights or fear of enclosed spaces?

    “and as you have proven over the course of a yr,NOTHING will sway you because you refuse to except anything that goes against what YOU believe”
    Again: that isn’t true. Actual evidence that I’m wrong would convince me to revise or abandon my confidence in their safety and efficacy.

    “Fact,does vaccines help people,,yes,,,”

    “Fact,does vaccines harm people,,yes”
    No one is arguing this isn’t the case, only that because the adverse consequences that occur frequently are both minor and transient (e.g., soreness at the site of injection, low grade fever, etc.) while those that are serious (e.g., encephalopathy) are all but vanishingly rare, the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection greatly exceed the risks associated with vaccination and it is not rational to fear the vaccine more than seasonal flu. Consider encephalopathy: the MMR vaccine has been found to cause roughly one instance of encephalopathy in every million doses delivered, while measles itself causes one instance of encephalopathy in every thousand infections.

    “do i care if someone is harmed from a virus,yes”
    I find that hard to accept, given that you clearly are not in the least concerned about reducing the risk that you’ll serve as a vector of infection for others

    “do I care if someone is harmed by a man made vaccine more?”
    What harms caused by man made vaccines are you referring to here?

    “ you will never understand until you personally are harmed by what someone else says is good for you”
    Perhaps I could if you were able to articulate the reasons why you believe this were a likely outcome of vaccination, and in particular what evidence demonstrates the likelihood that outcome would occur exceeds the likelihood I would instead be harmed by something even you acknowledge has been shown to be bad for me (seasonal flu).

  37. Matt Herminghaus says:


    I suggest you seek a professional, you are messed up in the head and need help.

  38. Matt Herminghaus says:


    Education does not = intelligence. What a snob.

  39. Matt Herminghaus says:


    Wrong again, you obviously have no understanding of homeopathics, you should stick to things you know about.

  40. Chris says:

    “Education does not = intelligence.”

    I never said that. Though Michael reveals his lack of education by writing very confusing texts, and in a previous thread making comments that showed a lack of education in math, science and American government. He also said the reason for the extra commas was because the keyboard on his phone was broken.

    What is wrong with encouraging someone who became disabled on the job to take advantage of adult basic education resources in their community? Why is bad tell someone they could use the computers in his local library, and possibly check out books. How is that messed up? The resources are available, and could help get him off public assistance.

    Why are you against adult education?

    Mr. Herminghaus, why don’t you provide the scientific data about homeopathic remedies in regards to influenza? Just give us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that homeopathy works better than the influenza vaccine in preventing the disease. Please don’t give us the withdrawn 2009 Cochrane report that Oscillococcinum “reduced the length of influenza illness by 0.28 days”… or 6.7 hours.

    And please provide that data, because insults are not a valid substitution for evidence.

  41. jgc56 says:

    I do have an understanding of homeopathy and its foundational principles: the concept of miasma’s, the Law of Similiars, the Law of Infinitessimals, etc. However I also have an understanding of chemistry and biology. For homeopathy to be effective literally everything we know about chemistry and physiology would not only have to be wrong, it would have to be spectacularly wrong.

  42. Gray Falcon says:

    The only reason homeopathy ever seemed to work was simple: It was far superior to the prescientific medicine of the time. Of course, given that prescientific medicine often consisted of toxic herbs, bleeding, and unsanitized equipment, that simply means that doing nothing (which is what homeopathy is) was superior to the medicine of the era.

  43. novalox says:


    Interesting that you do not point out where Chris was wrong, instead resorting to unfounded accusations and insults.

    That says a lot about the poverty of your arguments and more about your personality and lack of education, since you obviously cannot point out any faults with the regular’s arguments.


    So that means you do not eat any salt at all? That pretty much means that you only subsist on water and bland foods, since most foods contain at least some salt.

  44. Michael says:

    Chris,,,,i do not receive public assistance,i receive social Security that I have earned,something i was forced to pay into when i worked,I worked for 31 yrs,,so now I will collect til I die,public assistance is SNAP and medicaid(federal) and state funded cash grants,,I receive none of that

  45. Michael says:

    Novalox,,,why would assume that i don’t eat salt?

  46. novalox says:


    Since you said that you don’t eat table salt, yet NaCl (table salt) is in almost everything that we eat, even if you don’t eat any added salt.

    Also, what is wrong with Chris’ suggestions? And what is wrong with the flu vaccine that you will not take it?

  47. novalox says:


    So you don’t get basic grad school chemistry, eh? Why would anyone believe you when talking about vaccines? And why would anyone believe a sockpuppet?

    And again, I guess you don’t eat much food, if at all, if you say you do not get any salt in your diet.

  48. Chris says:

    “,,i do not receive public assistance,i receive social Security that I have earned,something i was forced to pay into when i worked,I worked for 31”

    This is where your lack of education is really showing, especially with investment math. You are only in your forties, so will be getting that for yet another thirty plus years. It is those who continue working into their sixties that help pay for that fund that pays for your SSI (especially when they have also paid into private funds and will not get much SSI). That includes those of us who figured thirty five years ago that Social Security would not be around for us when we retire close to 2020 because of the flaky 1980s economics (14% mortgage rates!), so we saved as much as we could.

    I hope you thank the Roosevelt administration for providing that federal benefit starting in 1935 every time you complain about the government.

    So use that time you have and put it to good use: go to the library, and then complete your education. That way you can get back to work and may actually increase your income. Or are you afraid that you might open up your mind? Do you fear education as much as vaccines?

    By the way, today I walked to the library. I returned a book about neurology by Sam Kean, and read a bit in the periodicals. Then I walked to the pharmacy and got a flu vaccine. My arm is a bit sore, but it beats the week of fever and muscle pain I had ten years ago when I last had the actual disease.

  49. liz says:

    I am an ER physician and am the first in line to get my flu shot every year. Not only do I want to protect myself, I have a duty to protect my patients who are often frail. I have seen people die from the flu. The flu – influenza – is a very serious. Every doctor in the ER I work at gets the flu shot right away every year. You cannot trust a news reporter or friend to tell you the immunization is not safe. If physician’s who are trained in science rush to get the shot and do not believe the “myths” about side effects, that should help convince you. Teachers, nurses, doctors and others in close contact with the elderly and children have a duty to get the shot. I think it should be mandatory for those professions

  50. Michael says:

    chris it is good to see that you also have bitterness to our so called government,,but you have that backwards,,the money i paid in(employer paid in actually on my behalf,I paid the taxes on it) pays for my predecessors retirement as well as my children’s generation will be providing for mine,my allotment I have earned (worked for) is based on a 40 yr spread,they take your overall pay-in for that 40 yrs and average a yearly payment broke down to monthly installments,that is just the federal part,you also receive State Social Security by way of taxes you paid into the state,I do not receive any state allotment because the state i worked has no state tax,again,stop trying to down grade me,it is unbecoming ,

  51. Chris says:

    Michael, take some basic math classes. Then take some classes in US history and government. We pay the maximum amount SSI taxes in the paycheck each year, and the amount per month taken would not provide even a minimum to live on. The math does not work out. This is why your lack of education is noticed.

    It is paid by those who are working. It is not something you can depend on. And there is not a “State Social Security” where we live, mostly because there is not state income tax. You are living off of the SSI paid by your neighbors.

    Go use the time and resources paid by your tax paying neighbors to expand your education. Go to your tax paid library. Take classes from your tax supported community college. Go back to work.

    Why are you afraid of educating yourself? Is it as bad as being vaccinated?

    • Michael says:

      believe whatever you want,,I know different seeing that is exactly what the Social Security Administration did with my case,,and i thought i covered the no state social security payment when I stated that the state I worked all my yrs in does not have a state income tax withhold,although the state I live in now does,seeing that i filed in this state,that was one of the very first questions they asked,because if I had state tax withheld,,they would have added that allotted portion to what i receive now,here is some math for you,,$1,026,240,00,,that is what was paid in for Social Security,,my earnings for 31 yrs of employment,,I think that is pretty damn good for being “illiterate”don’t you think?you sit there looking down your nose,why? are you jealous?I didn’t ask to be disabled you know,I’d much rather be making 78 to 80 grand a yr,,so take your hatefulness somewhere else,quit harassing me

  52. Lawrence says:

    Back on topic – another good place to get information on the how’s and why’s of the Flu Vaccine this year:


  53. Chris says:

    Especially since Michael has resorted to some kind of fantasy lans.

  54. Chris says:

    Sorry, fantasy land. This why he and his friends fear the vaccine more than the disease. They have no time for reality, like very real pain, fever and sometimes death.

  55. Liz says:

    As though the pain of dementia and paralysis caused by the flu vaccine were not real.

  56. Lawrence says:

    @liz – no scientific evidence that it is….

  57. Lawrence says:

    And there is Michael again with more lies from the Grande Dame of the anti-vaccine movement ( who was instrumental in founding the Vaccine Court, FYI).

  58. novalox says:


    As usual, no evidence, for someone who swears that he/she/it doesn’t eat any salt and cannot provide any credible or believable evidence.

    • Michael says:

      as usual,,you will pick and choose what you feel is evidence,,,but as you see,an estimation does not mean it is a FACT,The fact that the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program(NVICP) exists and claims have been won through this program proves that vaccines are dangerous to certain people

  59. Lawrence says:

    Michael seems to not have even a slight percentage of a clue as to why the Vaccine Court was established in the first place……

    Also little grasp (if any) of statistics, vaccine safety research and risk analysis.

  60. novalox says:


    How many vaccines have been given since the court has been established? How many cases have been awarded?

    Since you seem to have trouble with elementary school math as well as science.

  61. Michael says:

    HHS set up NVICP to compensate individuals and families of individuals injured by vaccines and Novalox,,,it does not matter how many vaccines have been administered,the fact is,,it exists no matter what you say to try and discredit that fact,the entire problem lies in the fact that a certain group of people are trying to push for a herd effect which is unconstitutional in the US

  62. Lawrence says:

    Would be interesting for Michael to back up that assertion, since the Courts have upheld vaccine mandates for decades now….

    • Michael says:

      I don’t need to back it up,if a person was to say they don’t vaccinate because of their beliefs,it is unconstitutional for anyone to force that person to be vaccinated,period,,

  63. Lawrence says:

    Besides the fact that two States currently have no “personal belief” exemption, you don’t know the actual law very well, do you?

    Don’t vaccinate? Sure, but don’t complain when you are restricted from participating in public activities, like public school attendance.

  64. Lawrence says:

    And since no one here is “forcing” anyone to get vaccinated, merely to use the brain given to you & make rational decisions based on common sense, logic and science, your particular point is moot anyway.

    Vaccines are good public health policy, so it is perfect legal to restrict individuals from participation in public activities (like school) if one does not vaccinate….and that’s been the standard for over a century now, Supreme Court & all.

    • Michael says:

      tell me again where you decide what is rational and if it is true what you say then why is it that only 2 states have restrictions(Mississippi & West Virginia) and not all 50 if it has been a standard for over a century(Supreme Court and all),the former 1972,the latter,,2013,what is irrational is the fact you decide to overlook that there is a problem for vaccines for certain people and that that alone should be the reason to question vaccines,then and only then could a rational decision be made either way

  65. Lawrence says:

    Since you don’t seem to be able to articulate a rational thought in there, I don’t feel there is a need to address it…..since we know that a very, very, minuscule fraction of people may have a reaction to a vaccine (not a systemic reaction or one that is prevalent in any particular population or group), it was better to set up the Vaccine Court, to guarantee legitimate compensation & continue to track vaccine reactions and safety through numerous channels.

    Again, since you don’t seem to have any idea how this is done, why and the methodology behind it, you will continue to make irrational decisions for yourself (and possibly your family as well – woe to them).

    At the end of the day, if you don’t vaccinate – that’s perfectly fine – just don’t be surprised when limitations are placed on your access to public activities – like public schools.

  66. jgc56 says:

    “The fact that the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program(NVICP) exists and claims have been won through this program proves that vaccines are dangerous to certain people”

    Actually, no: it does not. Judicial rulings are legal opinions, not evidence.

    Direct question Michael: of the total number of cases where compensation has been awarded by the NVICP, in what percentage of those cases was compensation awarded for table injuries (i.e., where no finding has been made that the injuries claimed were caused by the vaccines the claimants’ received)?

    • Michael says:

      and why is there a Table injury criteria to begin with?,isn’t it because there has never been any scientifically proven evidence saying that vaccines do not harm?what is even worse is,,the table has not been updated even though 9 more vaccines have been added since it was implemented as criteria for unopposed compensation,the fact is,,there has been too many probables to ignore it anymore,now,for the same reason that the government passed a no liability law for pharmaceutical companies and doctors they allowed for no viable proof needed as long as it meets the criteria of the Vaccine Table Injury,the other 10% are “off table” and must show proof by plaintiff

  67. jgc56 says:

    (For those who are curious, according to House Report 106-977 as of October 12, 2000 more than 90% of all cases brought before the NVICP were pursued as table injuries with no obligation on teh part of the claimants to demonstrate causation, and no finding that vaccination caused the injury issued by the NVICP).

  68. novalox says:


    Still not answering the questions posted to you?

    Let’s give you 3 posts to answer Lawrence’s, Chris’ and jgc56’s questions. Failure to do so within 3 posts will mean that you admit that you cannot answer the questions posited to you, that you admit that your position is untenable, and that you admit that your previous comments have no actual scientific support.

  69. Lawrence says:

    Michael seems to be unaware that Pharmaceutical companies can still be sued (and held liable) for product defects and “bad batches” – he also seems unaware that many other commonly-used items are considered “unavoidably unsafe” including automobiles, for instance.

    Only in the instance of vaccines, is there a mechanism that doesn’t require hideously expensive litigation to receive compensation for an injury suffered….in the end, even if someone loses in Vaccine Court, their court fees are still paid.

    One should really do a bit of research before commenting, since we’ve been through all of this before, over and over again.

  70. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – perhaps you need to start using “unbiased” resources, especially ones that lie (and I mean LIE – there are so many untruths on that particular page, as I can’t even begin to count)….

    Especially a page written by one of the very people responsible for the formation of the Vaccine Court to begin with….

    Because you are reality-challenged, once again, your opinions are based on foundations of sand…..with so real evidence or facts to back them up.

    (and try not to quote notorious anti-vaccine websites, it does nothing for your already tarnished credibility)

  71. Lawrence says:

    Oh, and that page talks about “required” vaccines in one breath, then harps on protecting exemptions on the other….so which is it, are vaccines “required” or are there exemptions?

    It seems like Barbara can’t keep her stories straight…..

  72. Chris says:

    Mississippi does not require influenza for school:

    Neither does West Virginia:

    I doubt there is a mandate for any adult to get the influenza vaccine except for certain health care employees. Something Michael does not have to worry about. So the “mandate” argument is specious and silly.

    Just as claiming that because NVICP exists that the influenza is dangerous is also specious and silly, especially since the ratio is one award out of about 1.2 million doses, where most of them were just “settlements.” I am not going to over the numbers again, since Michael showed in an earlier thread he clearly does not understand basic math, nor knows how to use a calculator.

  73. Michael says:

    Chris,i beg to differ,we were not strictly talking about the flu vaccine when Lawrence stated there are 2 states with no religious exemption,those are the 2 states i mentioned,,,,,Children under 18 have no religious exemption in those 2 states,although by law,any child under 59 months old are required for the flu vaccine if in daycare or preschool



  74. Liz says:

    The thimerosal still used in most flu vaccines is half ethylmercury by weight, and ethylmercury is every bit as deadly as methylmercury. There is no such thing as safe mercury.
    Why don’t you take google lessons from Chris? There are literally thousands of sites on the Internet with all the horrifying details of the damage often caused by the mercury in vaccines (and elsewhere). Many scientific studies on this damage as well. Mark Noble, Berbacher to name two off the top of my head.

  75. Liz says:

    Many hospitals now mandate the flu vaccine for nurses (never for doctors as far as I know). Many states “mandate” the flu vaccine for schoolchildren, but permit exemptions. New York may be an exception in mandating flu vaccine even for preschoolers, I’m not sure they allow exemptions. And of course it’s really not all right to force children to be damaged when the adults don’t have to.

  76. Chris says:

    Michael: “not strictly talking about the flu vaccine”

    Scroll up the top of the page. Now read the title out loud. What does it say? Any other vaccine than the one in the title would be off topic.

    “Lawrence stated there are 2 states with no religious exemption,those are the 2 states i mentioned,”

    Which are the ones I listed, neither require the influenza vaccine. It seems you found one state, Connecticut, that requires influenza for preschoolers. Big whoop. It still does not mandate for adults.

    Liz (the multiply banned Ms. Parker) : “The thimerosal still used in most flu vaccines ”

    Interesting. So what? Of those approved for children, four out of eight do not have thimerosal. Math hint: eight divided by four is four, that means half. There is also no evidence there is any harm from thimerosal in any vaccine. Are you afraid middle aged adults will suddenly become autistic?

    “Many hospitals now mandate the flu vaccine for nurses (never for doctors as far as I know).”

    Good. I was very glad that my son was treated in those hospitals. I did not need him to be infected with influenza by staff especially after open heart surgery. If they don’t want to comply to hospital policies, then they should find a different job.

    “There are literally thousands of sites on the Internet with all the horrifying details of the damage often caused by the mercury in vaccines (and elsewhere).”

    There are web sites that claim cures from sugar pills exposed to the light of Saturn can cure your ills, and others that claim sticking needles through the skin will cure asthma. They mean nothing. Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the vaccine causes more harm than influenza, a disease that killed over a hundred kids last year.

    “Many states “mandate” the flu vaccine for schoolchildren, but permit exemptions. New York may be an exception in mandating flu vaccine even for preschoolers,”

    New York does not include influenza for preschoolers through high school:

    • Michael says:

      and how many times has your rambling drifted off topic the irrelevant link you posted for NY is just that,irrelevant,the Flu vaccine is mandated prior to thatnow that bares to question why?when the same people are saying you should have one every yr,no contradiction there right?,,,,ummmmmm,,yea,,”Math hint: eight divided by four is four, that means half”,,this is what happens when someone believes they are so smart that simple basic math just kicked their ass,,,8 divided by 4 is 2,which would then be 2 halfs,,your ramblings now are off topic,,get back on point,,the blog is titled in a question,,,”Which Do People Fear More? The Flu or Flu Vaccine”,,,,I stated the flu vaccine,,,,,,simple,,no explanation needed beyond that simple answer yet you folks seem to think that if anyone is not on the same page as you,,,you feel a need for a justification to prove the reason why that answer,well guess what,,,,you peoples mind are so warped that you “can’t understand normal thinking”,,Not one has to justify anything,the most rational decision that can be made is if ALL factors good or bad are presented,if it is not,,then a rational decision can never be made whether it be for or against,,that is the truth

  77. Chris says:

    If anyone had any doubt about your illiteracy, Michael, it is now confirmed.

    You have no one but yourself to blame for that.

  78. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – when you express an opinion that has no basis in fact, you must expect that people are going to take issue & correct you.

    At the end of the day, if you persist in your erroneous beliefs, that’s fine – again, just don’t expect to be taken at face-value by people that are more educated in the facts than you are.

  79. Chris says:

    Also, I made a typo.. Yes I know 8/4 is 2. Still half is not more than half.

    And most of the states do not mandate flu vaccine for school entry. And no one is going to make an adult get one. the NVICP program has awarded less than one award per more than 1.2 million vaccine doses, and most of them were just settlements. Internet stories are not evidence.

    Also, the vaccine is still safer than influenza.

  80. Dina says:

    What you mean is that four out of eight available brands of flu vaccine make a version that is available without mercury. Most of them continue to offer the slightly less expensive, multi-dose, mercury-containing vaccine. However, most of the injected flu vaccines actually used DO contain mercury, those for children over three years old and adults have 25 mcg of mercury per dose, while those for infants and toddlers have half that, but the first time they get it it is given twice in one year. Unfortunately most people are not aware of that.

  81. Chris says:

    Dina/Liz (the often banned Ms. Parker), again so what? There are thimerosal free versions available. Nitpicking on little bits does not make it relevant. Especially in those states that do not allow children under age eighteen from getting vaccines with thimerosal. Your claims are still specious and silly.

    So until you can come up with the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the vaccine causes more harm than the a disease that kills children: the vaccine is still safer.

    I am sure that when you were a practicing lawyer you knew that no court would take “stories on the Internet” as evidence. There is no reason we should accept them here.

  82. Lawrence says:

    @Dina (Ms. Parker) – the vast majority of school-age children receive a Nasal Flu Vaccine (like Flumist), which never contained Thimerasol……not to mention that in the decade since it was removed from all other vaccines that contained it (and most did not already), all subsequent research has shown it to be safe anyway.

    Just go away.

  83. Chris says:

    And more science:
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

  84. Bacelli says:

    Speaking of the nasal flu vaccine,
    Did You Know that Nasal Flu Vax Recipients Can Pass the Flu to Everyone Around Them for Up to 21 Days?


  85. Lawrence says:

    @Bacelli – you’ll be happy to provide documentation around cases where this happened?

  86. Lawrence says:

    More importantly, show where this has caused a “serious illness.”

    • Michael says:

      that is kind of hard to do when doctors do not want to admit they were wrong and lose out on all the money being made from vaccines,,just because they have not reported this does not mean it hasn’t happen

  87. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – given that doctors themselves have told (on numerous occasions) that they don’t make any money on vaccines & in fact, there are doctors who are forced to purchase vaccines with their own funds, gives lie to your statement.


    Gives a great summary on the “profitability” of vaccines.

  88. Lawrence says:

    I call “bullsh*t” on your “bullsh*t” since you have no idea what the real costs are associated with the vaccines…i.e. the costs to develop, administration, overhead, etc.

    You really don’t have any idea what you are talking about, do you? Economics wasn’t one of your strong suits?

    • Michael says:

      I say bullshit because they are reimbursed through state funded programs,there is not one doctor i know of that will see a patient without insurance,a standard office visit is 75 dollars,not including what service they provide,i can read just fine,,,what you are presenting is only 10 doctors,and only 7 provided payment data,(insurance providers) and also state that they used a simulated model(theory) to compensate for the small numbers of participants in their study,what is not provided is the out of pocket expenses from the patient that the (insurance provider)is not covering

  89. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – doctors see patients who don’t have insurance all the time…insurance reimbursements are what they are (if you’ve looked at your statements, you’ll see what insurance pays versus what the doctor would bill otherwise).

    Vaccines are not money-makers for doctors – heck, compared to drugs like Cialis or Viagra, they make very small amounts of money for Pharma companies as well….

    Again, you really don’t know much (or anything) about economics or the medical system, do you?

    • Michael says:

      I did state that I did not know of any doctor that will see a patient without insurance,ever doctor i have tried to see say insurance must be provided,,,and we are not talking about hard-on pills,we are talking about vaccines,I know enough of economics to know that doctors and lawyers are the top occupations in our country,why?because of the cash that is being made off the public

  90. Chris says:

    Bacelli, why should we believe a story off of the internets? Provide actual scientific studies and you might have something.

    Michael, you can sign up for health insurance next month: https://nystateofhealth.ny.gov/

    Also at the local pharmacy the vaccine costs about (checking my printout for the Fluarix I got last week) $30. Wow. Such a money maker.

    • Michael says:

      thank for your consideration but i already have insurance,,,but yea,,430 times how many vaccines administered,lets use a moderately low number of say 1 million, that equates to $30 million,now lets get to a more accurate number 150 million vaccinated just for the flu vaccine,looking more like $4 1/2 billion ,,every yr,,no no its not a money maker,,please

  91. Chris says:

    Now subtract the costs of manufacturing, packaging, transport and the cost of administering the vaccine by a pharmacy tech.

    • Michael says:

      don’t need to,that price you paid was at least $10 more than what the doctor was charged,which means ,,if just your doctor administered 1000 flu vaxes to his patients,,he made $10 thousand alone,imagine that

    • Michael says:

      lets get more accurate,,
      Preservative Free

      your doctor was charged $1,20 for the dose he give you,,if he is contracted through the CDC,,if not,,he paid $1,60 a dose,yet YOU were charged $30

    • Michael says:

      and for each dose,,there is a $0.75 per dose Federal Excise Tax

    • Michael says:

      Chris,,i have nothing against a company making a profit,your boy driving around in his truck gets paid,I don’t have anything against a person that chooses to be vaccinated and no,we do not live in a communist country yet but we sure are working on it aren’t we

  92. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – doctors are making money on vaccines? It will be news to these doctors:


    • Michael says:

      well Lawrence,,that article is your link is for is 7 yrs old,,I give you the price list of this yrs vaccine prices of all that are on the market,the article is a lie or the CDC is lying about costs,According to what Chris enlightened us with,She stated her flu vaccine was billed to her at $30,cost to the doctor is max,$1.60,that is an 1,775% markup!Keep in mind this is just for one vaccine,now when it come to pediatricians,there are more different types of vaccines being pushed(mandated),therefore a guaranteed cash flow,either by the patient,insurance or state reimbursement,

    • Michael says:

      sorry,,i mis-read the price per dose,,looking at them side by side i was reading,,,

      Fluarix® CDC / Private
      Preservative Free 10 pack- 1 dose TipLok syringe/ $12.03 / $15.90

      I divided the price by 10,,my mistake,,,,I see now that the price showing is actual price per dose,however that still does not change the fact that money is not being made by everyone involved on vaccines,it is still double,to the patient

    • Michael says:

      you people are something else,it is a money racket all the way around,,Chris states now she got her vax for free,,a lie,insurance paid for it which in turn she pays a premium to the insurance company which may also include a deductible having to be met before coverage starts with maybe a co-pay after that is met,,point being,SOMEBODY paid,insurance is the reason that the doctor over-charges and at the end of the day,every penny made by said company to run said company is a tax write-off,and no,I personally don’t know exactly what it takes to run a medical facility,,but i do know what it take to keep a multimillion dollar construction company going to maintain a 24% profit rate so imagine that it is not much difference just different product

  93. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – what math are you using? Because the “per-dose” price is substantially higher than that on the link you provided….

  94. Jessica Driscoll says:

    The US Federal government awarded 6 pharmaceutical corporations over 5.7 Billion to manufacture children’s vaccines alone in 2011
    Company Contract Amount
    Sanofi Pasteur 200-2011-38199 $1,142,400,000.00
    GlaxoSmithKline 200-2011-38201 $786,456,400.00
    Merck 200-2011-38200 $1,704,454,000.00
    Novartis 200-2011-38204 $451,660,000.00
    Pfizer 200-2011-38203 $1,652,570,000.00
    MassBiologics 200-2011-38202 $11,250,000.00
    Total $5,748,790,400.00

  95. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – yes, the government buys millions of doses of vaccines – for the military, for clinics, and for other programs.

    What is your point?

  96. Jessica Driscoll says:

    The point is, who says there is no money in making vaccines?
    The World Health Organization website discusses what factors go into establishing vaccine prices. One of the more repeated points you see is:
    “Vaccine production costs have a significant fixed cost component, reaching up to 90 percent of total costs. These costs include research and development (R&D), quality control and quality assurance, selling and distribution overhead, and the construction and maintenance of production facilities.”

    Let’s assume nothing changes over time – such as increased efficiency in research and development, manufacturing, vaccine tax, etc. – the remaining 10 percent is profit for the pharmaceutical companies.
    If we estimate a 10 percent profit from 5.7 billion dollars, this leaves the corporations with an average of 100 million dollars per company.
    I have to ask you this question, “Is $100,000,000 a lot of money to you?”
    Keep in mind, this is only for the federal Vaccines For Children (VFC) program. The total amount is likely much higher.

  97. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Also, no corporation, corporate executive, board member, doctor, state or local health official can be held responsible for a vaccine injuring your child. Thus, Big Pharma’s profits from manufacturing vaccines are very safe. Well played, Big Pharma.

  98. Chris says:

    “for other programs.”

    Like this program:

    And pharmacies buy lots of doses of vaccines to provide to their customers for about $30 (and I got mine free because it was covered by my health insurance, the information sheet did list the cost without insurance).

    What is it with folks like Michael and Jessica who think those who work for pharmaceutical companies, their suppliers (for glass, eggs, packaging, etc), the truck drivers who distribute the vaccines from where they are made to the clinics pharmacies, etc, the people who give the vaccines, and on and on should work for free?

    That is either being childish or advocating for a communist economy.

  99. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – $100 Million dollars? That would be just about what it costs to develop a single new successful treatment or drug…..taking into account the R&D expenditures for all of the drugs and treatments that never pass muster (only about 1 out of 100 or so new drugs ever get to market).

    Not to mention that the contracts you cite have very low minimum guaranteed orders….meaning that they could be worth the entire amount or next to nothing, depending on the requirements of the government at the time.

    God forbid that companies make profits – profits for new treatments, hiring new employees, etc….are you a Communist?

    And lastly, if a company is found to have been negligent in the manufacture of a vaccine, yes – they can be sued and held liable….you conveniently seem not to know that.

  100. Chris says:

    Ms. Driscoll: ” Big Pharma’s profits from manufacturing vaccines are very safe. Well played, Big Pharma.”

    Except part of the cost is a tax to pay for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program. And one can sue if there is a manufacturing defect like contamination.

    Also, since you brought up “Big Pharma’s” profits, can you tell me what the relative cost of paying $30 for a vaccine versus getting influenza and missing work for a week if one does not have sick leave benefits? How about the cost of getting pneumonia and needing hospital care? Or the cost to the over hundred families last year that paid to bury their children who died from influenza?

    Please, please, please tell us how we would all save money if we just told the American government to make manufacturing and selling influenza vaccines illegal.

    Also, what do you have against those who work for pharmaceutical companies from being paid for their work? Does that also include other companies that provide services? Does this mean you want my son who works for a company that facilitates freight transportation, which can include medical supplies, to not be paid? Where do you think we live: the Soviet Union?

  101. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – do you know how much it costs to run a medical practice? Do you really believe even $10,000 per year (and those numbers aren’t accurate, as you just stated) is all that much? Given that taxes alone subtract between 30 – 40% of that, plus expenses, insurance, etc?

    And like Jessica, you have a problem with people making money?

  102. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Of course they should be paid Chris, so quit saying there is no money in it.

    The US Federal government has given the corporations a guaranteed paycheck through the contracts. It makes perfect sense why the federal health agencies would keep demanding more vaccinations – they get more money!
    Take the example of the former head of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), Julie Gerberding. She helped promote the highly controversial Gardasil vaccine while she served in her government post. After she finished working for the CDC, she was made President of the Vaccine Division for Merck Pharmaceuticals.

  103. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Lawrence, go back and read what I posted. The 100 million is pure profit.

  104. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica & Michael – so, how much money do hospitals & doctors make treating someone for flu-related complications like pneumonia?

    How much money do they make treating patients with measles & mumps? How much money do they make treating children crippled by congenital Rubella Syndrome?

    Seems to me that treating disease is a hell of lot more profitable than prevention.

    My pediatrician sees my kids once a year…..they get their vaccines & we pay our co-pay, and that’s it. Since we never have to go otherwise, we certainly aren’t very “profitable” patients.

  105. Chris says:


    Fluarix® CDC / Private
    Preservative Free 10 pack- 1 dose TipLok syringe/ $12.03 / $15.90

    So you so really want the truck drivers and all of the pharmacy employees to work for free!

    Do you also do the same financial breakdown for the shoe insoles that pharmacies sell for $30? Will you now go after the employees of “Dr. Scholl’s” as money grubbers?

    Look up and learn a new word: “overhead”

  106. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – actually, no it isn’t. And “profits” as you call them, get plowed back into the companies for further research & development….how else can they afford to stay in business.

    Again, why are you against companies making money – especially at such a low profit margin (10% is barely enough to keep the lights on in most companies, much less multi-national organizations with hundreds of thousands of employees).

    And those contract amounts aren’t guaranteed, once again. Perhaps you need to learn a bit more about how government procurement works.

  107. Chris says:

    Ms. Driscoll: “The US Federal government has given the corporations a guaranteed paycheck through the contracts.”

    I was an Army brat, most of my family have served in the military. One of them is now retired and working for the State Department. Do you seriously think those hospitals on military bases not use medical supplies? Do you want the federal government to completely shut down the Department of Defense?

    Good grief. You are a communist!

  108. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – a bit about the thorough process in vaccine development (and why it costs so much):



    See where it states that it can cost between $800 Million & 1.7 Billion dollars to bring a drug to market…..

    $100 Million dollars is not a lot of money, when compared to what it costs to develop a new drug, particularly a vaccine, that has such a low profit margin.

  109. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – and Jessica seemed to miss that the “guaranteed” part of those contracts was as little as 100 doses….which is about $1000.

    So yeah Jessica, you don’t know much, do you?

  110. Chris says:

    Oh, and the big evil vaccine contracts that she points is for “Vaccines for Children.” This is to provide free vaccines to those families who cannot afford vaccines.

    Not only does she not want people to be paid for transporting vaccines, she wants to deny federal medical benefits to kids! I bet she does not care about the costs of deaths of those hundred children who died last year from flu. Not only is she a communist, she hates kids.

  111. Jessica Driscoll says:

    I guess they have the best of both worlds. Make money on vaccines and make money on treating diseases.
    When did I ever say they shouldn’t make a profit? When did I ever say people should work fro free? When did I ever say medical benefits should be cut off?
    You are liars for claiming I said any of this.

    The bottom line is Pharma does make big profits with vaccines. That was the debate. The WHO shows a profit of 10% of Billions of dollars, that’s Hundreds of Millions per Pharma Company. That is a nice big, safe, profit.

    You must also remember the pharmaceutical companies are in business to make profits and ensure shareholder value. If not, they are gone.

  112. Jessica Driscoll says:

    I love all of the straw man rebuttals. Nice job.

  113. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Through public law, these corporations have been made too big to fail, just like the banks. They make a hefty profit from government contracts. It’s a guaranteed paycheck for them – there is no incentive to change the process. They have no risk when it comes to vaccines. If I get injured, the Company is not responsible. I want a Company with that deal.

  114. Jessica Driscoll says:

    While prescription drug sales are forecast to rise by a third in five years, vaccine sales should double, from $20 billion last year to $40 billion in 2014, according to Kalorama research firm. That’s five times the sales from 2004. The future looks bright for the vaccine business.

  115. Jessica Driscoll says:

    The pneumonia vaccine Prevnar, made by Wyeth, was the first vaccine to exceed $1 billion in annual sales, followed by Merck’s cervical cancer shot Gardasil, with $2.3 billion in 2008 sales.

  116. Jessica Driscoll says:

    “Vaccines are now perhaps seen to be more attractive than drugs,” said Dr. Stanley Plotkin, a former University of Pennsylvania professor who helped develop the German measles and rotavirus vaccines.

    Vaccines command higher prices — $375 for the three-shot Gardasil series — so they are more profitable than prescription drugs. With only one or two makers of most vaccines, price competition and generics are rare.

  117. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – please tell us exactly what the “guaranteed” minimum contract amounts are for the ones you linked to.

    Also, you should talk to any good business person & see what they think about a 10% profit margin (here’s a hint, it isn’t very good).

    And “too big to fail?” doesn’t apply to pharmaceutical companies – it is a term reserved for certain financial institutions through the Dodd-Frank regulations.

    You also conveniently ignore that these companies are still held liable for tainted or incorrectly manufactured products…..you seem to be the one here with a vendetta.

    You should probably read the article I linked to – as it related to the Billions of Dollars that these companies spend on the arduous process of Research, Development, Testing, Clinical Trials and all of the other regulations they need to go through to get even a single vaccine to market.

    So, what is your point again?

  118. Lawrence says:

    @Michael – I bet you’d say that a 10% margin is pretty thin then…..

  119. Chris says:

    Ms. Driscoll, neither Prevnar nor Gardasil will protect you from influenza.

    And you said: “I guess they have the best of both worlds. Make money on vaccines and make money on treating diseases.”

    So which is more profitable: preventing or treating influenza?

    Where is the comparison of $30 spent on an influenza vaccine versus the five days of lost work for someone like a waiter who does not have sick day benefits?

    You seem to be against the “Vaccine for Children” program which provides prevention from diseases for low income children. That is not a straw argument, because you listed the payments to that particular program as “giving money to Big Pharma.” It can be clearly seen in the links you posted above.

    So obviously you hate poor children. Now you seem to think it is better for someone with a minimum wage job and few benefits to get sick instead paying a pharmacy for an influenza vaccine. Now that’s a straw man argument.

    By the way, Michael, my son does not drive a truck. The company does not own trucks. As I said it facilitates freight shipping, this means making sure that whe a ship arrives at a port to unload cargo, there is also cargo to pick up and take elsewhere, plus makes sure that the ships are fueled and the crew is safe, paid, etc. It requires lots of logistical planning. It is probably a concept you will find hard to grasp, just you are having with the concept known as “overhead.” Perhaps you should spend some of your free time learning some economics.

  120. Liz says:

    About the new article by Dr. Zibners, which is not accepting comments at this time: I don’t think many people think that doctors are secretly colluding to give vaccines which they know to be dangerous but profitable. I think it’s much more that the doctors are part of a large institution which has always been believed to be founded on scientific principles which have been used to draw up policies of best practice, including the vaccine program. Even though many doctors now are aware that vaccines are often much more dangerous than they used to be thought to be, many are afraid to voice or act on their fears, since it’s easier and less trouble for them to continue to publicly support and carry out the vaccine program and its recommendations. Bucking the system would carry significant risk of professional chastisement and exclusion from the fold of medical practitioners in good standing with their professional organizations and colleagues.

  121. Jessica Driscoll says:

    They are laughing all the way to the bank, especially because there are those that think like you.

    Yes, I would say 10% of 40 Billion is a very nice profit, regardless of the percentage.

  122. Chris says:

    Because, Liz/Dina (Ms. Parker), she may not have time to counter your specious and silly comments.

    So, again, where are the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing the influenza vaccine is more dangerous than influenza, a disease that killed over a hundred kids last year?

    And you should remember back to when you were a lawyer, that no court of law would accept “stories from the internet” as evidence. So there is no reason why we should also accept those stories. Just give us the data to support your claims. And don’t change the subject, which is “influenza versus influenza vaccine.”

  123. Jessica Driscoll says:

    You must be out of your mind Chris, if you don’t think this is a straw man argument.

    “You seem to be against the “Vaccine for Children” program which provides prevention from diseases for low income children. That is not a straw argument, because you listed the payments to that particular program as “giving money to Big Pharma.” It can be clearly seen in the links you posted above.”

    Is big pharma making money on the scenario above? Answer: Yes. Why does that correlate to me being against vaccines for children? Answer: It doesn’t. This has nothing to do with the debate if vaccines are profitable. Thus, a straw man argument.

    Please don’t waste my time.

  124. Chris says:

    Ms. Driscoll: “They are laughing all the way to the bank, especially because there are those that think like you”

    Come on, where is the financial analysis of a $30 vaccine versus spending five days sick at home if someone does not get sick pay?

    “Yes, I would say 10% of 40 Billion is a very nice profit, regardless of the percentage.”

    For how many people? One Boeing 747-8 costs about $357 million. Does this mean every single one of Boeing’s 186000 employees is a millionaire? Have you ever taken one business economics class?

  125. Chris says:

    “Is big pharma making money on the scenario above? Answer: Yes.”

    I am sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that no company ever should ever make money from selling there product. Why?

    “This has nothing to do with the debate if vaccines are profitable.”

    So they should lose money? Why? You obviously have never worked in any kind of commercial business.

  126. Lawrence says:

    @Jessica – and where have we ever said that vaccines weren’t “profitable?” They just aren’t nearly as profitable as other drugs like Viagra (which is one of the most profitable drugs ever marketed) or Cialis….and it still costs between $800 Million & 1.7 Billion dollars to bring a single one to market.

    As I understand it, you don’t like the fact that these companies make a lot of money – and you don’t like it that they can’t be sued directly for what you believe are “vaccine-injuries”….

    Which ignores that around $5.7 Billion dollars has been paid out through the Vaccine Court for legitimate serious vaccine reactions and settlements….which is still a very, very minuscule amount compared to the $120 Billion dollars that gets paid out every year in claims and lawsuits for car accidents (so, that’s $120 Billion every year vs. $5.7 Billion over 28 years).

    Of course, you continue to ignore that these companies still are required to go through the rigorous drug regulation process – again, which is a huge part of the $800 Million – 1.7 Billion dollar cost to get a vaccine to market, and these same companies can be held liable (and sued) if they manufacture tainted or “bad” vaccines.

    You seem to have a particular vendetta & like ignoring simple economic facts (like those contracts you so helpfully linked to – which have very tiny guaranteed minimums).

  127. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Chris, you are out of your mind.

    “For how many people? One Boeing 747-8 costs about $357 million. Does this mean every single one of Boeing’s 186000 employees is a millionaire? Have you ever taken one business economics class?

    What in the are you talking about? Employees, millionaires? again…straw man.

    “I am sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that no company ever should ever make money from selling there product. Why?”

    I already stated that they have a right to make money and they are. Can’t you read?

    “So they should lose money? Why? You obviously have never worked in any kind of commercial business.”

    Again, no idea what the heck you are talking about? No they should not lose money and I never said they should lose money or work for free.

    Please, take some classes and learn how to read and comprehend. And quit making straw man arguments and could assuming.

    The point is that vaccines are profitable and that’s it. I have no problem with them being profitable. I’ll say it again, I have no problem with them being profitable and for big pharma to make money.

    I do have a problem when people say vaccines aren’t profitable. Period.

    Do you understand now? Let me know and I will explain my view again if needed.

  128. Jessica Driscoll says:


    You seem to have a particular vendetta against women, because I am a woman. Why?

  129. Jessica Driscoll says:

    How do you like it Lawrence? Did I make my point with my statement above?

  130. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Facts are facts Lawrence, the companies are either profitable or they are not. I say they are.
    Please prove me wrong.
    Oh you can’t, because the information is public, and guess what, they are profitable.

  131. Jessica Driscoll says:

    “Even if a small portion of everything that’s going on now is successful in the next 10 years, you put that together with the last 10 years, (and) it’s going to be characterized as a golden era,” says Emilio Emini, Pfizer Inc.’s head of vaccine research.

  132. Dina says:

    Don’t get me wrong. I think there are many in the medical field who are fully aware of the situation and are exploiting it for personal gain. But I think that most doctors are just unwilling to rebel, when it would mean so many problems and probably loss of revenue if they did. Ethically, they should, but in the real world, and with so many bills to pay, med school loans to pay off, mortgages, college tuition to save for, and so on, the temptation to just remain in the conventional world in which vaccines are nearly always safe and effective and protect most people from diseases which would mean a lot of deaths without the vaccines, is so great as to persuade most of them to remain within it. And it’s also probably hard for them to get their minds around the concept of a world in which so many thousands of the best-educated élite could have been so extremely, tragically, wrong.

  133. Dina says:

    The problem is that comments have been turned off on the new article by Dr. Zibners about whether it’s reasonable for people to believe their own doctors are actively involved in a conspiracy to promote vaccines, so that they may personally profit from it. I don’t think most are, and I don’t think many people believe they are. That being said, remaining silent and going with the program under the present circumstances is clearly wrong, but is a more nuanced kind of wrongdoing that I think most of us can sympathize with.

  134. Jessica Driscoll says:

    Dina, agreed, nobody wants to bite the hand that feeds them.

  135. Lawrence says:

    @jessica – so you have no point other than we agree that vaccines are somewhat profitable, but not nearly as profitable as other drugs.


  136. Lawrence says:

    @Dina – if that was true, why hasn’t the AAP taken action against Dr. Gordon or Dr. Sears?

  137. Jessica Driscoll says:

    If you call tens or hundreds of millions “somewhat” profitable, then yes.

  138. Lawrence says:

    @jessica – when compared to the bottom line, yes “somewhat profitable.”

    And your passive-aggressive point is, what exactly?

  139. Jessica Driscoll says:

    What is passive-aggressive? I call tens and hundreds of millions a lot of money and you call it “somewhat” a lot of money. A difference of opinion.

  140. Jessica Driscoll says:

    I happen to work for a Company with a low profit margin but still profit a large amount of money. It’s the nature of the beast, so what. They don’t complain, they’re still making a lot of money and they are happy about it.

  141. Lawrence says:

    I am glad that we agree that profitable companies are a good thing, so they can keep developing life-saving vaccines.

  142. Jessica Driscoll says:

    My hope is that they can eventually develop a much safer vaccine.

  143. Lawrence says:

    @jessica – there it is…..

    So today’s vaccines are unsafe, why exactly?

  144. Lawrence says:

    @jessica – and why would you believe that steps aren’t being taken to make sure that vaccines are as safe as possible (and that new methods are constantly being researched to make better and safer vaccines)?

    The link I provided earlier actually talks about this process…..

  145. Chris says:

    Ms. Driscoll: “My hope is that they can eventually develop a much safer vaccine.”

    Please post the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any American influenza vaccine causes more harm than influenza, a disease that killed over a hundred kids last year in the USA.

  146. jgc56 says:

    “My hope is that they can eventually develop a much safer vaccine.”
    That’s a laudable goal–the fact that one day vaccines may even be safer does not mean that vaccines as they currently exist are insufficiently safe. The operative question is always whether or not the risks associated with vaccination are significatnly safer than the risks associated with reamining vulnerable to infection, and that’s well established. Consider the encephalopathy associated with MMR vaccination: it occurs in one of every 1 million people vaccinated, while measles itself causes encephalopathy in 1 of every thousand people vaccinated. That’s a risk of developing encephalopathy that’s three orders of magnitude LOWER in vaccinated versus unvaccinated individuals.

  147. Chris says:

    ” while measles itself causes encephalopathy in 1 of every thousand people vaccinated who get the actual disease. ”

    Fixed your type. It happens to all of us.

  148. Chris says:

    Aargh: “Fixed your typo.”

    See what I mean?

  149. jgc56 says:

    “The thimerosal still used in most flu vaccines is half ethylmercury by weight,…”
    No, it’ not. Thimerosal instead releases ethyl mercury as a metabolite following injection. Expressing a moelcule’s mercury content in terms of percentage by weight, BTW, is meaningless.

    “…and ethylmercury is every bit as deadly as methylmercury.”
    Again: .no, it’s not. Studies have demonstrated that ethyl mercury is significantly less toxic than methylmercury, such that it is inappropriate to apply exposure levels established methyl mercury to ethyl mercury. See Pichichero (PMID: 18245396) and Burbacher (PMID: 16079072), for example.

    “There is no such thing as safe mercury.”
    There are however exposure levels below which toxicity does not occur. Remember the fundamental priniciple of toxicilogy: the dose makes the poison.

  150. jgc56 says:

    Thanks chris. I’m getting over a virus for which we lack a vaccine (EV-68) so I’m not quite firing on all cylinders today.

  151. Chris says:

    I am so sorry. Been there, done that. The other night I made many errors after spending a day at a workshop. I hope you feel better soon.

  152. Nutty says:

    So the dose, the dose, the dose, makes the poison?

  153. jgc56 says:

    After reading Doshi’s opinion peice (and it is just that, not a clincial study or evidence demonstrating flu vaccines are either unsafe or ineffective) and before reconsidering, I urge everyone to visit




    to see why Doshi’s claims lack credibility.

  154. John Casey says:

    Only a fool would get the flu shot. I know four people who was well. They got the flu shot and all four was sick and I mean very sick with in a week.
    Yes one can get the flu from the shot.
    So be stupi if you want and get it.

  155. Lawrence says:

    @John – please explain how an inactivated / dead virus could cause an infection?

    Do you understand even basic biology?

  156. jgc56 says:

    “They got the flu shot and all four was sick and I mean very sick with in a week.”

    Which isn’t evidence that the flu shot gave them the flu–only that they became ill within a week of receiving the vaccine (you might want to google “post hoc ergo propter hoc”logical fallacy”, john.).

    And given that the typical incubation period for influenza is 1 to 4 days before symptoms appear but that the body takes about two weeks to develop a protective antibody titer following vaccination, it’s not surprising that some people will become ill een thought theyve been vaccinated. It doesn’t mean the vaccine gave them the flu, only that they were infected before they’d built up enough of a titer to be protected before being exposed to the virus.

    “Yes one can get the flu from the shot.”

    Citations needed,John Casey.

  157. Liz says:

    I agree, John. I also know several people who have gotten a bad case of the flu from the flu shot, and one who was paralyzed by it. I guess everyone here has seen the story about the ten-year old girl who was paralyzed by the flu vaccine? Interview on Nancy Grace?

  158. Chris says:

    Liz/Dina (Ms. Parker), anecdotes are not data. And just saying you “know several people” would not even hold up in a court of law, so it does not work for real science. Your illness has made you forget so much.

  159. jgc56 says:

    Liz, how has it been established that the “bad cases of the flu” these seeral people sffered were caused by the flu shots they received?

    Be specific.

    If the “one who was paralyzed by it” is in fact Marysue Grivna (as your Nancy Grace reference suggests), It’s been established that her paralysis is a result of developing acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM). Influenza vaccines are not associated with an increased risk of developing ADEM, however: the only vaccine shown to confer an increased risk of developing ADEM is the Semple rabies vaccine.

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