Home > Expert Insights, In the News, Preventable Diseases, Seasonal Flu > Friday Flu Facts: NFID Press Conference Highlights Important Data

Friday Flu Facts: NFID Press Conference Highlights Important Data

The National Foundation of Infectious Diseases (NFID) held a special press conference yesterday where expert panelists spoke frankly about the seriousness of influenza and the importance of annual flu vaccination as our best means of protection.  Tom Frieden, M.D., M.P.H., Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) led by example by getting his own influenza vaccination after revealing some interesting data points about last year’s flu vaccine coverage:

NFIDFreidenFluShotphotoOverall we continue to see an encouraging upward trend in flu vaccination coverage.  

  • In total, 46.2 percent of the entire U.S. population age 6 months and older was vaccinated during the 2013-14 season (which is up 1.2 percentage points from last year).
  • Coverage was highest among children younger than 5 years old (70.4 percent) and adults age 65 years and older (65 percent).
  • There was an increase in coverage among school-aged children, up 3 percentage points to 55.3 percent among children 5 to 17 years old.
  • Coverage among healthy 18 to 64 year-olds has yet to top 40 percent,and unfortunately this demographic was hit hardest last season resulting in the highest flu-related hospitalization rates this age group has seen since the 2009 pandemic.

Flu vaccination coverage in pregnant women has remained steady over the past two years at about 50 percent, which is a great increase over the less than 15 percent that were vaccinated prior to the 2009 pandemic year. 

  • Pregnant women and their developing babies are at increased risk of flu complications because of changes to a woman’s immune system, heart and lungs during pregnancy.
  • Getting sick with the flu while pregnant doubles the risk of fetal death, increases the risk of premature labor and increases the mother’s risk of hospitalization.
  • Vaccination of mothers protects newborn babies for up to six months, a period when they are particularly vulnerable to influenza but too young to get vaccinated.
  • Infants of vaccinated mothers have a lower risk of hospitalization from flu during their first six months of life. Influenza vaccination is recommended for pregnant women during any trimester.
  • The highest vaccination rates in pregnant women are among those who receive a recommendation and an offer of vaccination from their obstetrical or other healthcare provider.  This was true among all demographic groups, including women with a negative perception about flu vaccination.

Vaccination coverage among doctors and nurses is high at about 90 percent, but low rates persist in long-term care workers at just 63%, which continues to put medically fragile patients at risk. 

  • Coverage was 72.4 percent among healthcare providers whose employers promoted but did not require flu vaccination.
  • Coverage was lowest (47.9 percent) among those working in facilities where employers did not require or promote flu vaccination.
  • Education, promotion and easy access to vaccination at no cost in the workplace can increase vaccination coverage.

In preparation for this year’s influenza season, the NFID press conference highlighted a few serious concerns and areas of improvement.

Studies show adults may not seek vaccination because they think influenza poses no risk to them.  This is what we’re seeing in the low rates among 18 to 64 year olds and what we need to address in the coming year.

Dr. Frieden explained,

“It is encouraging that over the past few years more people are getting their flu vaccine, but we need to encourage more young and middle-aged adults to get vaccinated because they also can suffer serious consequences from the flu,” said Dr. Frieden. “Vaccination is the single most important step everyone 6 months of age and older can take to protect themselves and their families against influenza.”

Forty-seven percent of last season’s reported 107 pediatric deaths occurred in children with no prior health problems. Dr. Offit spoke at the conference and related personal stories of parents who were completed shocked when flu took the lives of their children.

“The flu has claimed even more children than we know.  The real tragedy is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if the children were fully immunized against flu.”

In August 2014, the CDC recommended the nasal spray vaccine as the preferred flu vaccine for healthy children 2 to 8 years old, however it’s important that vaccination not be delayed if the nasal spray vaccine is not available. William Schaffner, M.D., past-president of NFID and preventive medicine and infectious disease expert at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, explained that the best flu vaccine is the one that is administered.

“Influenza vaccines are safe, plentiful and we have more vaccine options than ever before—at least one is right for everyone.  People should not wait to get vaccinated if their first choice is not available.”

NFIDNatsParkFluThis year the vaccine options are plentiful and patients can choose from the traditional flu shot, a nasal spray vaccine, an intradermal vaccine given with a much smaller needle, a high-dose vaccine for people age 65 and older and an egg-free vaccine. All vaccines protect against the same three or four influenza viruses, which research suggests are most likely to circulate during the coming season. This includes (1) A/California/7/2009 (H1N1) pdm09-like virus; (2) A/Texas/50/2012 (H3N2) virus; (3) B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus and (4) in quadrivalent vaccines a second B virus – B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus.

Early vaccination is especially important for children younger than 9 years of age who are receiving a flu vaccine for the first time because they will need a second dose four weeks later to provide optimal protection.  The CDC also recommends adding pneumococcal conjugate vaccine for adults age 65 years and older since pneumococcal disease can be a deadly complication of influenza.

NFIDNatsParkAmyClaire

The NFID is committed to increasing public awareness of the importance of annual influenza vaccination. Most recently they have partnered with Major League Baseball teams such as the Oakland A’s and the Washington Nationals, for special evenings of baseball and influenza awareness.  Every Child By Two Executive Director Amy Pisani recently joined Every Child By Two board members Walter A. Orenstein, MD, Associate Director of the Emory Vaccine Center and Claire Hannan, Executive Director of The Association of Immunization Managers (AIM), to support this public awareness campaign at Washington Nationals park.  This event, as well as many others organized by the NFID throughout the season, is critical in helping the public understand the importance of influenza vaccine.

To learn more about influenza in adults and the vaccines to prevent them visit NFID’s adult vaccination page at adultvaccination.org.

To learn about preventing flu in children, visit NFID’s website preventchildhoodinfluenza.org.

For a complete list of flu related resources visit the NFID influenza page at http://www.nfid.org/idinfo/influenza.

  1. Lawrence
    September 19, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    Schools are doing a great job promoting vaccines in general & the Flu vaccine specifically…I would expect that we’ll have another stellar showing at our kids’ school’s Flu Vaccine clinic.

    Like

  2. September 19, 2014 at 3:44 pm

    Reblogged this on NFID News and commented:
    NFID is committed to increasing public awareness of the importance of annual influenza vaccination #FightFlu

    Like

  3. Michael
  4. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 3:37 pm

    @Michael – out of how many tens of millions of doses of vaccines?

    If only all products were so safe……

    Like

  5. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 4:02 pm

    Michael, who wrote that article, and what are their qualifications? I will submit that person’s skills in basic math are severely lacking. Trying to make a case that influenza vaccination is bad by citing NVICP compensations is incomplete without noting that the level of evidence required is very small, ignoring the total number of vaccine doses given and also ignoring the damage caused by the disease.

    Let’s check the all of the numbers. According to table almost two billion vaccine doses were given between 2006 and 2012. And since the rest of the statistics go to 2014, it is a good assumption that more than two billion vaccine doses have been given since 2006.

    Now look for the total number of claims that have been compensated since 2006, which is 1300. What is 1300 divided by two billion? Is it a small or big number.

    Now continue looking at the table, and see how many influenza vaccine doses have been given between 2006 and 2012. Is it larger or fewer than the rest of the vaccines? Of all the vaccines given, what is the percentage that were for influenza. Let’s do the math:
    809,000,000 / 1,968,399,297 * 100 (that is to get %, or “per 100” in Latin) = 41%

    None of the other vaccines given come close to 800 million doses, the closest is Tdap at over 133 million. So one reason why there are more compensated claims for influenza vaccine is because it has been given the most!

    Now, let’s compare the seventy compensated out of more than134 million doses given in a year (809,000,000/6 years). So that would be 70/134333333*100 = .00005%. Now is that a big or small percentage?

    So how much damage does influenza do each year? Well it managed to kill over a hundred kids two years in a row. That is just kids, which have to be verified for influenza to be on that bar chart. The adult numbers should be higher. Plus for every death there are dozens of hospitalizations. Definitely lots more than seventy.

    So, Michael, explain again how the influenza vaccine is so much more dangerous than influenza. Though next time use real citations that include all of the numbers, and written by folks with better qualifications than being coconut oil sellers.

    Like

  6. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 4:24 pm

    @Michael – your odds of getting struck by lightning are about 1 in 700,000….your odds of suffering a severe reaction to the flu vaccine, about 1 in 1,000,000 (based on current statistics).

    So tell me, are you afraid of getting struck by lightning?

    Like

  7. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 5:05 pm

    I never stated that it was more dangerous,,,just showing an article that states how dangerous the vaccine is to certain people,no matter how minute,,,In America,,we are suppose to have the right to decide what is in the best interest for ones self and/or their child,period,,but i have noticed over the past few months,pro-vaxers want to do nothing but push their beliefs on others,I have noticed it is the same 5 people here,,it is you same 5 people that I have seen actually push people away with your bigotry,has it ever occurred to you that if y’all weren’t looking down your nose that maybe,, just maybe people would look at this differently,,Chris you look at one source and one source only as if it is the word of God,,all you people want to do is discredit any form of source that you keep asking for,,,the point is ,,,yes,for the most part,,vaccines are good but everyone is not the same,,,THAT IS THE POINT,,,for some it is very dangerous,,show some damn compassion for Christs sake,,,and yes Lawrence,,,I am afraid of getting struck by lightening just as much as I’m afraid of our country collapsing from Ebola or this EV-D68

    Like

  8. R2D2
    September 29, 2014 at 5:18 pm

    “based on settled cases” Now think of all of the injuries that aren’t reported, or those that are reported but never go anywhere.

    Like

  9. R2D2
    September 29, 2014 at 5:20 pm

    One size does not fit all.

    Like

  10. R2D2
    September 29, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    I know 3 people that have been injured by the flu vaccine or swine flu vaccine.
    One is paralyzed, one younger person lost speech and fine motor skills, and one older person had dementia for a couple of weeks before recovering.

    Like

  11. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 5:31 pm

    @R2D2 – perfect name, since you are very robotic in your parroting of anti-vax talking points (re: lies). Since pediatricians routinely discuss vaccines and the schedule with their patients, there truly is no “one-size fits all.”

    There is a recommended schedule that acts as a good guideline for when vaccines should be given, but even in that schedule, there is a lot of wiggle room – my oldest had to wait to get his second MMR for a couple of months because he had the Flu (and too young to have been vaccinated for it, thank you very much)….but we got him caught up at the next visit.

    @Michael – since when have we not shown compassion? Should I fall down on my knees and beg forgiveness for asking something as simple as an actual citation or evidence?

    Sorry, as I happen to be a “Man from Missouri” – so I do believe in “Show me.” I don’t just believe stories I hear on the Internet, I do the research and know the cold hard scientific facts…and the facts show that the Flu Vaccine is perhaps the safest vaccine on the market, with less of a chance of a serious reaction than getting struck by lightning.

    Again, I wish all products we used were as safe as vaccines.

    Like

  12. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 6:01 pm

    Michael: “I never stated that it was more dangerous,,,just showing an article that states how dangerous the vaccine is to certain people,no matter how minute,”

    I read the article and it was lacking in both evidence and statistics, but full of hyperbole. Look at its title: “Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S. based on Settled Cases for Injuries.” Yet it fails on so many ways to show evidence for that claim, including in light of not doing it in context, as I explained in detail.

    So come up with actual evidence to support your statement “dangerous the vaccine is to certain people”, especially comparing how those people would fare by actually getting influenza. Show us exactly how the vaccine is more dangerous than and disease that kills over a hundred kids a year.

    By the way influenza and other actual viruses also cause GBS.

    “,Chris you look at one source and one source only as if it is the word of God,”

    What source was that? Did you click on either link (they are the blue colored letters)? Tell me why both of those sources are suspicious. Explain exactly why I should believe the opinion of someone who sells coconut oil over that of a epidemiologist or anyone with the proper science/math education.

    I explained in great detail how that article was deceptive by leaving out very important information. I even “showed my work” in the math equations. What part did you not understand? By your use of English punctuation, I am guessing that you took your last math class when you were about thirteen years old.

    R2D2: “Now think of all of the injuries that aren’t reported, or those that are reported but never go anywhere.”

    So what? Obviously no one is going to report a sore arm or feeling cruddy for a day or so. And the ones that don’t go anywhere, are usually because they have no real evidence. Most of the Vaccine Court cases that have been dismissed is because the petitioners simply failed to come up with the requested medical documents.

    Like

  13. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 6:25 pm

    No Lawrence,,you just proved what you are with your response to R2D2,R2D2 made a statement and the first thing out of your face was condescending ignorance and then focal pointed(lies),Now that you know how to use the net,,,why don’t you go and find your own sources.to contradict what is being presented as False(lies).I have seen a number of sources provided throughout all articles of shots of prevention.Even the CDC has posted their own precautions to all the vaccines of who should not get them,so forgive me if i don’t take everything of your opinion as truth,,as i said,,It is the same 5,all y’all are nothing but trolls

    Like

  14. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 6:28 pm

    “.Even the CDC has posted their own precautions to all the vaccines of who should not get them,so forgive me if i don’t take everything of your opinion as truth,,”

    So you should be good with my link on how many kids died from influenza. So what other sources do you approve of?

    Like

  15. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 6:28 pm

    @Michael – you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote, did you?

    Like

  16. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 6:43 pm

    Lawrence, I suspect that he doesn’t read replies to him, and possibly not the all of the article he linked to.

    Like

  17. R2D2
    September 29, 2014 at 6:43 pm

    @lawrence

    “Since pediatricians routinely discuss vaccines and the schedule with their patients, there truly is no “one-size fits all.””

    I am not understanding your point. If my Doc discusses vaccine’s with me for my kids he won’t give them the same vaccine he gives everybody else? Do you think discussing vaccines with me gives the Doc all he needs to know to make a decision regarding the risk level for my kids?

    Like

  18. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    R2D2, so you actually have more medical and epidemiology education and experience than your doctor? Wow. Well, of course you should be telling the doctor who to or not to vaccinate.

    So where did you get your medical or PhD from?

    Like

  19. R2D2
    September 29, 2014 at 7:03 pm

    @Chris
    Thank you for making my point. Why would discussing vaccine’s with me give the Doc the information he needs to decide how risky vaccines are for my kids? The answer is, It wouldn’t.

    Like

  20. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    @R2D2 – to echo Chris’ sentiment, since vaccines are universally much safer than the diseases they prevent, with also very clear contra-indicators for those who are medically unable to receive them, a discussion with your pediatrician will be extremely helpful to determine if and when vaccinations should be given.

    Again, the current schedule has been determined by the preponderance of the evidence – but it still only a recommendation for the exact sequence and timing of vaccine administration (based on the “ideal”) but even in the current schedule, you find recommendations that vaccines be given in different orders or at different times, depending on circumstance.

    To say it is “one-size fits all” is just being unaware of what the schedule actually says.

    Like

  21. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    @R2D2 – so you are more educated that your pediatrician?

    Like

  22. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    Yes Lawrence I read everything you wrote,there was no citation in what you stated to affirm if that was just your opinion or fact
    From the CDC,
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm

    Like

  23. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    @R2D2 – you also don’t seem to have a lot of faith in your pediatrician….why did you select him/her, if you didn’t feel comfortable discussing medical decisions with them?

    Like

  24. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:12 pm

    @Michael – why do you believe one thing from the CDC & not everything else? You seem to only select those parts that you agree with, but reject everything else….The CDC also says this:

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm

    Like

  25. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 7:13 pm

    So,,just noticed my other comment with 4 links has been deleted

    Like

  26. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    @Michael:

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/vaccinesafety.htm

    For all of the general links.

    Like

  27. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 7:22 pm

    I didn’t say that i don’t believe in everything else the CDC puts forth and have not rejected anything from them,pointing out the facts that is on the whole,that vaccines are not the same for everyone,,something you people seem to overlook and have basically told everyone that does not agree with you to suck it up,do it anyways,insinuating they are ignorant for not being vaxed,,trying to force it on people,just because the majority does it,fascism is all you are promoting

    Like

  28. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:26 pm

    @Michael – the only one here that is using foul and disrespectful language is you. Cognitive-dissonance is strong with you…..and again, please point out where, anywhere here, that we’ve said that “everyone” must be vaccinated.

    As you point out (and as I pointed out above) there are medical contra-indications for vaccines that are very well known. In fact, it behooves the rest of us, who are capable of being vaccinated, to do so to protect those individuals (including babies who are too young to be vaccinated).

    Perhaps you should be a little more respectful in your own posts.

    Like

  29. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    R2D2, so where did you get your PhD and medical degree?

    Michael, what evidence is there that the seventy people in the coconut oil seller’s article all had those contraindications? Did they all have severe allergies, a previous bout with GBS or were feeling ill the day they got vaccinated?

    Like

  30. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 7:54 pm

    You are implying it Lawrence,,,otherwise you would not of called R2D2 a liar,,something that not only you but Chris has done to other people prior to this post,,,just like I waited 10 days since you originally posted to comment what i posted,,it took you one hr and you have not shut your face since,so like I said,,NO ONE can come here,,give an opinion and show what they believe as truth without one of you trolls to start badgering,,,,Definition of troll,,is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people by posting inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community solely to attempt an emotional response

    Like

  31. Lawrence
    September 29, 2014 at 7:58 pm

    @Michael – I’m sorry that you have such an emotional response to the posting of factual information, backed by scientific evidence….again, the only one here that seems to be displaying “troll-like” behavior is yourself.

    And, based on your definition posted above – you just outed yourself as a troll, since you pretty much checked off every box on that list (with that one post even – might be a new record).

    Like

  32. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 8:03 pm

    Michael, you are the one that posted an article titled “Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S. based on Settled Cases for Injuries.” How is that not inflammatory?

    I just pointed out the errors of that article and asked you some questions. Specifically who wrote the article, what are their qualifications, and for actual evidence showing “Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S.” I even provided links to the sites where I got the numbers.

    You don’t like that I will not accept as evidence web articles from unknown authors. I still want to know why I should accept as “fact’ the writings of this unknown person over the studies done by those with advanced degrees in science and math.

    Like

  33. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    Lawrence @R2D2 – perfect name, since you are very robotic in your parroting of anti-vax talking points (re: lies). ,,that is your quote,and yes,,I trolled you,,,,as i said,,i have been watching exactly how y’all treat other people bashing them,,belittling them,,calling them liars when they speak of obvious traumatic experiences they are sharing , a number of times these same people have shown their proof for their own reasons,,,I personally am for vaccinations and have not experienced any repercussions of said vaxs with me or my children yet I am not going to try and discredit an experience someone else may of had,,I do know a few people that have been damaged by vax’s,,I know a child that is 26 yrs old that at 5 yrs of age got the MMR vax and 3 days later was in a coma said vax that caused her to get Meningitis,she lives in an Adult living home because shes got the mentality of an 8 yr old,also know another young man with Aspergers,,,caused by the hepB,,,,do i need to prove any of this,NO I don’t,do I need you to believe me NO I don’t,Do I care if you believe me,NO I don’t,So y’all have a good night now,,I’m done with you

    Like

  34. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    Michael, so you are not going to tell me why I should accept an article by an unknown author that had serious math problems over the studies done by folks with advanced degrees in science/math?

    Like

  35. novalox
    September 29, 2014 at 10:20 pm

    @michael

    [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 posts, or we can assume that everything you have posted here is a lie, and that we can treat your posts as such.

    And why do I smell dirty laundry about you?

    Like

  36. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 11:03 pm

    Novalox,,it does not matter what anyone presents to you people,,,I have seen numerous comments with citations from others including myself on all different threads as to why they believe there are hazards of vaccines,so what is the point?have a lot of folks speak of personal experiences of it,,,yet the first thing out of your face they are liars,,so ,,why don’t you show proof that the vaccines don’t harm certain people,If you are so adamant that vaccines do not cause harm,prove it and if you can’t prove that certain people are not harmed by vaccines,,Get back to me when you can prove it all is false

    Like

  37. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 11:05 pm

    *then we should assume you are lying

    Like

  38. Chris
    September 29, 2014 at 11:19 pm

    Michael, why I should accept an article by an unknown author that had serious math problems over the studies done by folks with advanced degrees in science/math? Please explain that to me.

    You have been given lots of information on the safety of vaccines, like Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence. Also no one said “certain people are not harmed by vaccines.” We acknowledge that the NVICP has compensated those injured from vaccines. Many of us have had sore arms and a couple of cruddy feeling days after a flu vaccine (which are much much better than more than a week of fever and horrible muscle pain from the disease!).

    But what is in dispute is the relative risk of the vaccines versus the vaccine. The link you posted showed that seventy people were compensated by NVICP for injuries from the influenza vaccine. What the article failed to note that over a hundred million doses of influenza vaccine are given each year. It also ignored that influenza has killed over a hundred kids per year in the last couple of years, and causes thousands of hospitalizations. Why is it wrong for me to point out that lack of additional data? Tell me why we should not know the total number of vaccines given and how much harm is caused by the actual disease.

    Like

  39. Michael
    September 29, 2014 at 11:35 pm

    The same reason why what you presented should not matter,according to your link,,,54% of the population has not been vaxed for the flu yet only a 100 (kids) have died and have only had about 3500 cases of flu related hospitalization.,,your link,,your study,if vaccinations for the flu was really all that,why aren’t them numbers higher,honestly ,,think about it,,100(kids)out of what,,30 mil that was not vaxed,,very minute number,,so why vaccinate? your link,,,
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm#MS2

    Like

  40. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 3:19 am

    Michael: “,54% of the population has not been vaxed for the flu yet only a 100 (kids) have died and have only had about 3500 cases of flu related hospitalization.,”

    Why is it only a 100 (kids) have died”, yet the big deal of the link you posted was agog over just “70”? How is 100 dead kids less than “70”? By the way, in the last two years it was more than a hundred kids. Even if you average the four years shown, it is still more than a hundred kids per year ((123 + 37+ 171+108)/4 = 109.75).

    “only had about 3500 cases of flu related hospitalization”

    Where did you get this number? The link only goes to pediatric deaths. And how is 3500 less than seventy? Though I get from this summary from May 2014:

    9,632 laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated hospitalizations have been reported since October 1, 2013. This translates to a cumulative overall rate of 35.6 hospitalizations per 100,000 people in the United States.

    That is a much bigger number than 3500.

    So really, where did you get that number and why is it less than 70? Where is the evidence that the influenza vaccine is more dangerous than influenza.

    Yes, only a bit more than half have been vaccinated for influenza. Perhaps if more kids got the vaccine then less than a hundred kids would die from influenza, and fewer than 9000 or even 3500 would require hospital treatment. So, again, where is the evidence that the influenza vaccine is more dangerous than actually getting influenza?

    Like

  41. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 4:58 am

    @Michael – so, over 100 kids die of the Flu each year & you don’t consider that to be a problem? Yet, you consider less than 1 percent of 1 percent of 1 percent (less than the chances of getting struck by lightning) of a vaccine reaction to be something to get hysterical over?

    Even one child dying of a vaccine-preventable disease is one child too many in my book.

    Like

  42. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 5:45 am

    to begin with,,i never said it was more dangerous,,I’m saying the vax is worthless,,

    Like

  43. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 6:16 am

    @Michael – first, what’s up with all the commas?

    Second, worthless how? 60%+ efficacy isn’t “worthless” and is certainly better than 0%, right?

    Why is it always black & white with individuals such as yourself? If one vaccinated person gets infected, despite the vaccine, is that vaccine worthless?

    Like

  44. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 6:16 am

    @Michael – and you’d also be wrong, wrong, wrong….

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm

    Like

  45. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 6:20 am

    Lawrence..I don’t consider 100 children dying from not being vaccinated by a flu shot,,flu virus is a natural occurrence,,I do have a problem with 2000 children dying each yr from abuse.or the women that kill 1.2 mil babies a yr through abortion,,,100 deaths of not vaccinated children(known)in a yr,,,yet in same time period there were over 100 of compensated flu vaccinated deaths,,,
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html

    Like

  46. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 7:41 am

    @Michael – from your own source:

    *
    Influenza (Trivalent) 1,317 73 1,390 698 125

    73 Compensated Claims for “Death” since 1988. Since it is now 2014, that’s 73 over 26 years…which averages out to less than 3 per year.

    809,000,000 doses of Influenza vaccine have been given over that same period – which means the percentages are even more in vaccine’s favor….you are more likely to win PowerBall than you are to “die” of the vaccine.

    In fact, you are more likely to die of the flu, by several magnitudes, than you are of the vaccine.

    Again, I wish all products we used were as safe as vaccines – and you’ve provided exactly zero actual evidence to show that the vaccine is anything but incredibly safe.

    Like

  47. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 8:23 am

    @Michael – this is why I dislike seeing posts likes yours above, because you blatantly misstate the facts (like not realizing that 73 alleged deaths are spread over 26 years).

    The rest of your post is completely off-topic, again, checking the “troll definition” box that you so helpfully provided.

    Like

  48. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 9:52 am

    Michael: “to begin with,,i never said it was more dangerous,,I’m saying the vax is worthless,,”

    So why did you post the article with a title of “Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S. based on Settled Cases for Injuries”?

    Also you said: “100 deaths of not vaccinated children(known)in a yr,,,yet in same time period there were over 100 of compensated flu vaccinated deaths,,,”

    And then you post as evidence this link:
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#Claims

    Okay, it seems that you left school before graduating high school. This must explain your weird punctuation, and the fact you cannot read a table. Go to the claims, and look at the table. It is arranged in rows and columns. Run your finger down the first column to find the row marked “Influenza.” Here is a cut and past of that row:
    “nfluenza (Trivalent) 1,317 73 1,390 698 125”

    Now take your other finger and find the column marked “Deaths.” Run it down until it finds the above row. Note that your finger is now on the number “73.”

    Look at the title of the table: “Claims Filed and Compensated or Dismissed by Vaccine March 5, 2014”, and it started in 1988. So that is for over twenty five years.

    Michael, how is “73” in over 25 years more than 100 in one year?

    Michael, first do not make claims that are not in the links you posted. Second: do not change the subject.

    And third: try to complete your education by enrolling in a adult basic literacy and math classes at your local community college. The health of you and your family can be affected by your lack of reading comprehension and dismal math skills.

    Like

  49. novalox
    September 30, 2014 at 10:19 am

    @michael

    Strike 1,2 and 3.

    Since you have not provided any evidence for your assertions, we can assume that you have been lying to us the entire time, that all of your posts have been lies, and that we can assume that any future posts you make here are lies as well unless shown otherwise.

    So thank you for admitting that the flu vaccines is much more safer than the actual disease, that you do not have any evidence that flu vaccine causes more harm than the actual disease, and that you admit that you are a liar and that the regulars here are telling the truth.

    You cannot bring any evidence to the table, why should any rational person believe you?

    Like

  50. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 10:47 am

    novalox, I don’t think Michael is deliberately lying. He just does not understands what he is reading and has limited math skills (he cannot read a table).

    Like

  51. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 11:15 am

    @Chris – I agree. For what ever reason, he doesn’t really understand the statistics that he is quoting.

    Like

  52. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    if y’all can read charts as you say then you would of combined all flu related vaccines and that count comes to 98 deaths,and excuse me for leaving out the word in my last comment ,,it should of read”there were over 100 of compensated flu vaccinated “injuries” and deaths,,you people are the worst people to be trying to advocate pro vaccines,your blatant callousness toward anyone that does not agree with you is atrocious,you certainly opened my eyes to the facts of how dangerous all vaccines are,the hypocrisy and double standards is appalling,you show empathy for 100 souls that have died from a virus,which is a minute number comparatively,yet have none for the one that have died from vaccines,you have done nothing but solidify my opinion further of this matter,I am sick of this government and its goons trying to push their agendas on a free republic,false hope I think I my behalf,,,changes are coming though,,soon,,

    Like

  53. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    ” read”there were over 100 of compensated flu vaccinated “injuries” and deaths,”

    That doesn’t even make sense. Since 2006 there have been 699 compensated claims for influenza. That is 699 claims / 8 years = 89.4 or about 89 claims per year. That still does not equate to the over a hundred average pediatric deaths, which does not include the other deaths.

    “you show empathy for 100 souls that have died from a virus,which is a minute number comparatively”

    So a hundred dead children is a small number? So how many deaths do you find acceptable before wanting to prevent them? 500? 1000? 10000? Please tell us.

    “yet have none for the one that have died from vaccines,”

    According to the chart you gave there are only 73 deaths over twenty six years claimed for influenza. We do have empathy for those people. But an average of 73 death claims / 26 years is less than three per year, and we don’t know how many of those were dismissed due to insufficient data. That does not even come close to the damage caused by the actual disease.

    “I am sick of this government”

    Then please leave.

    Like

  54. novalox
    September 30, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    @michael

    Continuing to lie just to hide the fact that the facts are not on your side?

    Also, if you are sick of the government, then you are free to leave. I am sure the USA or whatever country you live in would be a better place without you.

    Like

  55. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 3:00 pm

    Aren’t they a lovely bunch Michael?

    Like

  56. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 3:17 pm

    Why thank you, Mr. Sequlini. I see you notice that we are extensively explaining the links he is using and providing the numbers in context.

    Like

  57. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    @Anthony – we’re not the ones hurling baseless insults…..

    Like

  58. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 5:15 pm

    You just stated it yourself Chris,,on average 89 claims on average per yr average 110 deaths per yr ,your numbers,ironic how close them numbers are don’t you think like a 54/46 ratio,comparatively that is really close with complying with the averages presented in this article 54% of pop not vaxed(110)deaths and 46% pop vaxed(89)compensated for,although neither % includes adult deaths or settlements out of court,therefor the vaccines do just as much harm as good,it is worthless,,my personal opinion,if it really matters,i believe if the body was subjected to these viruses it build its own immunity to a virus and if that was passed generation to generation,,there would be no need for vaccines to begin with except for the quaranteed killers

    Like

  59. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    @Michael – you made claims about the Flu vaccine, which we have shown to be false.

    Also, you display a surprising lack of education around immunology, biology and of course, math and history.

    All diseases are killer – it just depends on degree…for example, the Spanish Flu killed more than everyone who died in battle during WWI, yet we might have a year where very few people die…but are you willing to take that chance?

    I’m certainly not.

    Like

  60. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    People actually died of Pneumonia, and not necessarily the flu in the “Spanish Flu” era if you want to get technical.

    Like

  61. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 6:42 pm

    @Anthony – that is actually an excellent point. It was the side-effects & secondary infections that killed the majority of the people (particularly those who were young, with healthy immune systems).

    Could we keep a lot of those people alive today with antibiotics & advanced medical care? Most likely (for those in the 1st World) – but it still is better to get the vaccine and probably not get the Flu in the first place.

    Oh, and all that health care would be hideously expensive.

    Like

  62. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 6:48 pm

    Tuesday Flu Fact:
    ” One investigator has reported that people who received the flu vaccine each year for 3 to 5 years had a ten-fold greater chance of developing Alzheimer’s disease than people who did not have any flu shots (Int J Clin Invest 2005;1:1—4). (The brains of people with Alzheimer’s disease display three pathologic hallmarks: neurofibillary tangles, amyloid plaques, and phosphorylation of tau protein. Brain cells grown in test tubes develop these changes when exposed to nanomolar doses of mercury, doses similar to the amount of mercury a person gets from a flu shot.)”
    ~ Donald Miller, MD, professor of surgery, University of Washington

    Like

  63. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    Michael: “,on average 89 claims on average per yr average 110 deaths per yr ”

    Claims do not necessarily mean “deaths.” So how are those 89 claims per year worse than the more than a hundred pediatric deaths per year, and that does not even include the adult deaths and thousands of those who are hospitalized.

    Like

  64. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 6:54 pm

    You haven’t shown nothing,,one day it might be you that gets a flu vax and get serious complications because of it,,then and only then will you take what anyone has to say different of your view to heart,I believe what i stated,,not long ago there was no such thing as a vaccine for anything,,and the population still thrived,,

    Like

  65. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Do you know how many thousands are hospitalized after getting the flu vaccine? My best friend was on of those. He was in the hospital for 3 days and the Doc wouldn’t even admit it was from the flu vaccine. He received the flu vaccine on a Thursday, on Friday he had “flu – like” symptoms, got really sick and was disoriented for 3 days.

    Like

  66. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    again,,never said they were worse,I’m saying it is pointless,,,yes Chris claims don’t necessarily mean deaths as i stated as much in my comment,just as i said there have been settlements outside the court of law,,do we know how many of those were deaths?,,no we don’t,,yet we know that they exist,period

    Like

  67. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 7:13 pm

    Mr. Sequlini: “Donald Miller, MD, professor of surgery, University of Washington”

    Dr. Miller is a semi-retired cardiac surgeon. He <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/10/donald-w-miller-jr-md/dont-get-a-flu-shot-2/"wrote that six years ago on a dodgy website. Note he is listed as “Emeritus Professor of Surgery.” “Emeritus” means retired. He is not qualified in epidemiology, microbiology, immunology or infectious disease.

    In the future please only provide PubMed indexed citations written by qualified reputable researchers.

    By the way, like many hospitals the University of Washington Medical Center requires influenza vaccines:

    UW Medical Center and Harborview employees and volunteers are required to complete and document their flu shots. Follow directions provided by the hospitals regarding immunization requirements and documentation.

    UW Health Sciences students are required to complete and document their flu shots. Schools or programs will require students to submit documentation of vaccination (or meet the waiver requirements) to Health Sciences Immunization Program (HSIP) each year, if required by their practicum, clinical, or community placement sites, or if vaccination is part of that school or program’s general immunization policy. Learn more at Health Sciences Immunization Program.

    Which is why the hospital followed up when I complained about seeing copies of “Autism Trust” in their gift shop when my son was hospitalized there. Apparently they were not too happy when the supplier “accidentally” delivered magazines that have Wakefield on the editorial board that had articles directly counter to hospital policies.

    Like

  68. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    Mr. Segulini: “Do you know how many thousands are hospitalized after getting the flu vaccine”

    See link I posted at “September 30, 2014 at 3:19 am”

    Like

  69. September 30, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    @michael – since you have gone completely incoherent, I’m done with you.

    It was enough just to highlight your lack of credible information in light of the facts present against your stated opinions.

    Like

  70. Michael
    September 30, 2014 at 7:22 pm

    Good,,it is about time you carried on somewhere else,good day to you

    Like

  71. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 7:35 pm

    Mr. Segulini: “Do you know how many thousands are hospitalized after getting the flu vaccine?”

    No, please provide those verifiable statistics. Not a story about a friend. Do make sure he files a VAERS report and makes a NVICP claim.

    Like

  72. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 7:40 pm

    Mr. Segulini: “He was in the hospital for 3 days and the Doc wouldn’t even admit it was from the flu vaccine. He received the flu vaccine on a Thursday, on Friday he had “flu – like” symptoms, got really sick and was disoriented for 3 days.”

    The most likely explanation was that he had been infected prior to getting the flu shot. It takes two weeks for the vaccine to become effective, and it doesn’t help if you are actually incubating the virus as you get the vaccine.

    Some reading for you:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/drinking-from-the-fire-hose-odds-and-ends-on-the-gasping-oppression/

    Like

  73. novalox
    September 30, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    @anthony

    [citation needed] within 3 post, or we can assume that you are a liar like michael.

    @michael

    Thanks for admitting that you are wrong and that the flu vaccine is a good way to prevent getting the flu.

    Like

  74. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:18 pm

    @novalox

    I’ve witnessed how unfriendly you are and will not be conversing with you. I will be ignoring your posts. Just an fyi.

    Like

  75. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    @Chris
    I have personally gotten sick from the the flu vaccine within a couple of days on more than one occasion. It didn’t take two weeks.

    Here’s what I said, “Do you know how many thousands are hospitalized after getting the flu vaccine?”

    So if I knew the number I would have told you, one can only guess.

    Also, my anecdotal stories are my experience and that is how I form my opinions. Why would I believe you over my own experience? Especially somebody who treats people as nasty as you do. I have no respect for you and therefore could never respect your opinions.

    Like

  76. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:25 pm
  77. Anthony Segulini
  78. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    The Cochrane Library Review of virtually ALL peer reviewed flu vaccine studies. Overall results: Effectiveness in preventing transmission: Zero, Efficacy in young and old: Zero, Efficacy in other ages: Moderate. They also point out that REAL evidence in favor of the vaccine is “thin on the ground” because almost all industry studies were manipulated or misreported to make the vaccines look better than the results indicated and that positive conclusions were several times more likely to be published than negative and negatives were rarely cited. On top of that, the “62% reduction in flu” claim is dubious. It was based on a study where a control group who received no vaccine had 2.5 cases per hundred versus a subject group which had 1.7 cases per hundred. That means that the difference was ONE case per ONE HUNDRED participants, but the conclusions wrote off everyone from the control group who remained healthy and the same number of healthy subjects from the subject groups and came to the 63% figure. Ignoring 97% of the results to manufacturer a desired result is hardly scientific!

    Like

  79. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    ” It didn’t take two weeks.”

    It takes two weeks to become immune to influenza after the vaccine. You could have also been hibernating an infection before you got the vaccine.

    “Especially somebody who treats people as nasty as you do. ”

    Please point out where I have been nasty so that I can improve. Does explaining the links posted by Michael in extreme detail, including showing my work in the math, considered “nasty”? Was suggesting that he improve his reading and math skills by taking advantage of local community college classes nasty? Was providing the link to the Dr. Miller quote and explaining he was not qualified and retired nasty? Is asking why should I should accept as “fact’ the writings of this unknown person over the studies done by those with advanced degrees in science and math also “nasty”?

    Was telling novalox that Michael is probably not lying also nasty?

    Like

  80. Lawrence
    September 30, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    @Anthony – can you tell the difference between Influenza & “Influenza-like?”

    You do know they are two different things, right?

    Like

  81. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    @Lawrence,

    As a matter of fact I do know the difference, thus the reason I say flu-like. You would need a test to prove it is Influenza.

    The flu vaccine is for Influenza, how many people do you think think that have Influenza, when it is really only something similar?? I would say a lot. Another reason NOT to get the vaccine.

    Like

  82. Anthony Segulini
    September 30, 2014 at 8:37 pm

    @Chris
    I guess you know more than my Doctor’s who have told me on many occasions that I may get sick within a couple of days from the flu vaccine.

    Please don’t try and pretend that you are a nice person Chris. Your actions speak very clearly.

    Like

  83. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 8:39 pm

    The one on children: “Children (< 16 years old) and the elderly (above 65 years old) are the two age groups that appear to have the most complications following an influenza infection"

    and "The review authors found that in children aged from two years, nasal spray vaccines made from weakened influenza viruses were better at preventing illness caused by the influenza virus than injected vaccines made from the killed virus. Neither type was particularly good at preventing 'flu-like illness' caused by other types of viruses. In children under the age of two, the efficacy of inactivated vaccine was similar to placebo"

    Summary: Influenza is dangerous. The nasal vaccine works better. It does not work on other viruses. Children under age two are difficult to protect.

    And your point?

    The one from 2014: "The preventive effect of parenteral inactivated influenza vaccine on healthy adults is small: at least 40 people would need vaccination to avoid one ILI case (95% confidence interval (CI) 26 to 128) and 71 people would need vaccination to prevent one case of influenza (95% CI 64 to 80). Vaccination shows no appreciable effect on working days lost or hospitalisation."

    Community immunity is important, but it still provides some protection.

    "The administration of seasonal inactivated influenza vaccine is not associated with the onset of multiple sclerosis, optic neuritis (inflammation of the optic nerve of the eye) or immune thrombocytopaenic purpura (a disease that affects blood platelets). The administration of pandemic monovalent H1N1 inactivated vaccine is not associated with Guillain-Barré syndrome (a disease that affects the nerves of the limbs and body).

    Evidence suggests that the administration of both seasonal and 2009 pandemic vaccines during pregnancy has no significant effect on abortion or neonatal death"

    The influenza vaccine is safe.

    "The real impact of biases could not be determined for about 70% of the included studies (e.g. insufficient reporting details, very different scores among the items evaluated). About 20% of the included studies (mainly cohorts) had a high risk of bias. Just under 10% had good methodological quality."

    The studies were not as good as we want them to be, so take the above with a grain of salt.

    And again, what is your point?

    Like

  84. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 8:42 pm

    “I guess you know more than my Doctor’s who have told me on many occasions that I may get sick within a couple of days from the flu vaccine.”

    Now I don’t. But I do know that the couple of days of feeling lousy after a vaccine is much better than the more than a week of fever and nasty muscle pain. Getting influenza makes you feel like you have been kicked by horses all over your body.

    “Please don’t try and pretend that you are a nice person Chris. Your actions speak very clearly.”

    How can I improve if you won’t tell what I did wrong? Please tell exactly which comments I made were nasty and why.

    Like

  85. novalox
    September 30, 2014 at 8:59 pm

    @anthony

    At least you provided links , but you apparently haven’t read them, since they don’t say what you think they want them to say.

    Also, thanks for admitting that you are a nasty individual, and that I am better than you, since you cannot point out what comments pointed to you were nasty and instead resort to insults, which shows your true colors.

    But again, what should we expect from someone like you?

    Like

  86. Chris
    September 30, 2014 at 10:21 pm

    Something seemed very familiar about this comment thread. I know I have seen someone else use the odd multiple comma punctuation somewhere, but Google was no help. Though there was the part where I am accused of being nasty and the accuser is not able to pinpoint the specific comment. Plus there was a change of characters.

    So while I waited for noodle water to boil when making dinner I did a bit of searching and found out why I was having a deja-vu moment:
    https://shotofprevention.com/2013/08/13/think-chickenpox-is-party-worthy-think-again/

    The moderator, Ms. Vara who is a very busy woman, left a comment (note: even though we share the same first syllable in our names, my name is not “Christine”):

    Unfortunately, over the course of the past several years, there have been a few cases when someone’s been repeatedly abusive or disruptive and we have decided to remove them from the conversation here. When they return, under a different account and/or name as they often do, the system typically identifies them and hence their comments begin to fall into moderation. Zulu (who has also gone by Harry, Sharon, Peter M and Timothy) is just one example. Often times it appears that they take on several names to suggest that there are others that agree with their point of view. This is deceptive and immature and will not be tolerated.

    Like

  87. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 3:18 pm

    @Chris
    We’ll have to agree to disagree on the flu vaccine. I won’t be getting one this year.

    Like

  88. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 3:45 pm

    Anthony, what if you get the flu, and infect someone undergoing chemotherapy? Will you take responsibility for your decision?

    Like

  89. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 5:17 pm

    @Gray
    I haven’t gotten the flu since I stopped getting the vaccine about 6 years ago.

    There are always “what -ifs” with anything in life.

    Like

  90. Rick Stevens
    October 1, 2014 at 5:48 pm

    Anthony and Michael,
    I enjoyed your comments and your analysis. I’ve never gotten a flu shot and never will. I have NO desire to risk paralysis or dementia from the flu vaccine. I’d MUCH rather stay in bed and take my natural remedies and just ride it out.

    Gray Falcon, what if you persuade someone to get the flu shot, and he becomes paralyzed from it? Will you take responsibility for having caused that to happen?

    Like

  91. Chris
    October 1, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    “I have NO desire to risk paralysis or dementia from the flu vaccine.”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies from qualified reputable researchers that this happens, and that the vaccine is more dangerous than actually getting the flu.

    Even Mr. Segulini posted a link that said “The administration of seasonal inactivated influenza vaccine is not associated with the onset of multiple sclerosis, optic neuritis (inflammation of the optic nerve of the eye) or immune thrombocytopaenic purpura (a disease that affects blood platelets). The administration of pandemic monovalent H1N1 inactivated vaccine is not associated with Guillain-Barré syndrome (a disease that affects the nerves of the limbs and body).”

    Are you disputing his link?

    Like

  92. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    Rick, I agree. I need to take responsibility for my own health before I worry about others. I don’t feel I need to risk injury from a vaccine because I may get somebody else sick. If the vaccine guaranteed that I would not get sick, maybe I would consider the risk, but since vaccines are by no means perfect, that in combination with the risk makes me elect not to risk it.

    Like

  93. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    @Chris
    You make me laugh. “are you disputing his link?” dun dun dun

    Like

  94. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    Anthony- That doesn’t change anything. It’s still possible you’ll get the flu. And I know there are always “what-ifs”, that’s why we have vaccination, to reduce the risks to a manageable level!

    Rick- “I have NO desire to risk paralysis or dementia from the flu vaccine.” How often does this happen? And provide me with sources, peer-reviewed if possible. You are a total stranger on the Internet, probably using a false name, I have no reason to take your word.

    “what if you persuade someone to get the flu shot, and he becomes paralyzed from it? Will you take responsibility for having caused that to happen?” What are the odds of that happening? I’d say one in a million. I’d be no more responsible than if he got struck by a meteor on the way over.

    Like

  95. Chris
    October 1, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    “ou make me laugh. “are you disputing his link?” dun dun dun”

    Well you posted the link that said the vaccine was safe, it is right up there for all to see.

    “If the vaccine guaranteed that I would not get sick, maybe I would consider the risk, but since vaccines are by no means perfect, that in combination with the risk makes me elect not to risk it.”

    Nirvana fallacy. So, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers clearing describing those “risks” and how they are greater than the vaccine.

    Like

  96. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 6:28 pm

    Anthony, nothing is without risk, and no precaution is perfect. What you do is weigh the risks, and determine which is greater.

    And before you try the old “risk is subjective” canard, let me remind you that risk is measured numerically. There is nothing subjective about the statement “1 in 100 is a greater risk than 1 in 1,000,000”.

    Like

  97. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:33 pm

    @Gray
    There is approximately 1 case of Guillain-Barré Syndrome per million flu vaccines above the baseline rate.

    Like

  98. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    @Gray
    “Anthony, nothing is without risk, and no precaution is perfect. What you do is weigh the risks, and determine which is greater.”

    Exactly, it is my body and my health so it is up to me to weigh the risks and make a decision, which is what I have done. I am sorry if you have issues with that.

    Like

  99. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    @Chris,
    “Nirvana fallacy. So, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers clearing describing those “risks” and how they are greater than the vaccine.”

    Not Nirvana fallacy, real risks, and again I will make the decision for me and you can make it for you.

    Like

  100. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    Anthony, any evidence for that? You’re a total stranger, I don’t know your credentials, and I fairly certain that’s not your real name. Could you provide a citation of any sort?

    Like

  101. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    I found a couple of CDC posts with that information so I am sure you can find it easily Gray.

    Like

  102. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    I am also certain that Gray Falcon is not your real name.

    Like

  103. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 6:42 pm

    “Not Nirvana fallacy, real risks, and again I will make the decision for me and you can make it for you.” You can’t debate the risks any more than you can debate whether a five pound weight is heavier than a ten pound weight.

    “I found a couple of CDC posts with that information so I am sure you can find it easily Gray.” When given a simple task than could provide information that could save human lives, you refused to act. Now, where is your citation?

    “I am also certain that Gray Falcon is not your real name.” I never pretended it was.

    Like

  104. Chris
    October 1, 2014 at 6:43 pm

    “Not Nirvana fallacy, real risks, ”

    The Nirvana fallacy is a description of expecting the vaccine to provide perfect protection, this is why your “If the vaccine guaranteed that I would not get sick,” is silly.

    What are the real risks, give us verifiable evidence of what they are, compare them to the risks from actually getting influenza.

    Like

  105. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    It is not silly, if they worked 100% I would think about getting the vaccine (to help protect other people) even though there are risks. But the combination of them not being effective and the risks together, makes my decision easier not to get them. Why would I risk it knowing that it might be for nothing anyway, if I can’t at least rely on the vaccine working?

    Like

  106. Anthony Segulini
    October 1, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    @Gray
    I don’t take requests of simple tasks from you. Who are you my boss?

    Like

  107. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2014 at 7:03 pm

    “Why would I risk it knowing that it might be for nothing anyway, if I can’t at least rely on the vaccine working?” Because the benefits still outweigh the risks, by a wide margin.

    “I don’t take requests of simple tasks from you. Who are you my boss?” I don’t take total strangers at their word. Who are you, God?

    Like

  108. Chris
    October 1, 2014 at 7:51 pm

    “But the combination of them not being effective and the risks together, makes my decision easier not to get them.”

    And your evidence for that is….? Why should we care about your opinion?

    Like

  109. novalox
    October 1, 2014 at 9:13 pm

    @anthony

    Judging by your lack of evidence, as well as your baseless insults, we can assume that you are lying, and admit that the flu vaccine is safer than the actual disease.

    Again, why should we believe a liar like you?

    Like

  110. Michael
    October 1, 2014 at 10:43 pm

    Gray Falcon,,,If you get the Flu vaccine and 2 months later get the flu and pass it on to someone undergoing chemotherapy, Will you take responsibility for infecting them?

    Like

  111. Michael
    October 1, 2014 at 10:53 pm

    I see novalox is still sniding remarks and calling the kettle black and clearly has no brought forth anything to the discussion at hand,face it people,it is none of any of your business what someone else decides to do for them or their children just as we cannot change how bigoted y’all are,as i said before,YOU people changed my mind from for vaccines to against vaccines because I believed they were good,now that you forced me to research the matter at hand I want to thank you for opening my eyes to the real dangers that are presented to certain people

    Like

  112. novalox
    October 1, 2014 at 11:44 pm

    @michael

    I still see that you haven’t provided any evidence, resorting to name calling and proving how baseless your views are.

    Considering that you cannot put any coherent argument together, as well as resorting to name calling, why should anyone take you seriously? I really have to have a laugh at your childish insult, since I know children who can come up with better.

    And thank you for saying that I have more integrity than you can ever hope to have. With such infantile attacks from an anti-vaxxer like you, I consider it an honor to have defeated someone like you. Besides, it gives me more evidence to show my coworkers how little the anti-vax side cares for other people.

    Like

  113. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 12:06 am

    like I said,,You call people liars just because you are a BIGOT,,I have put for forth what I believe to be truth,you can take it or leave,,does not matter,talk about infantile,,what do you call what you just did,,you have no integrity or you would not be doing what you are doing,you have defeated nothing,,you actually enlightened me,,that’s all you have done,i admit i was naive to what I have listened to,,one of the “herd” so to speak,YOU people changed that,,now I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,YOU novalox,,Chris,Gray Falcon,Lawrence,reissd,swayed me this way,,been watching you for over a year now at it has not changed,thank you again

    Like

  114. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 12:16 am

    Michael: “I have put for forth what I believe to be truth”

    Really? Why should we believe you? What PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers have you posted?

    “I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,”

    Have you tried to learn how to write with coherent standard English grammar? Where did you learn that multiple commas were okay dokay?

    Like

  115. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 1:16 am

    I did not stutter,,,you act like pubmed is the word of God and it is the only reliable source in the world,obviously I type well enough for you to try and degrade me,funny how you had not one word to say on this thread Chris until someone said different of what the article was projecting,and for your information,one does not write on the net,,they type,something that i have never learned how to do very well,especially with a busted keyboard,okeydokey,the proper spelling,,duh

    Like

  116. novalox
    October 2, 2014 at 1:58 am

    @michael

    Continuing to lie and call names, since you cannot come up with any evidence, and instead having to call other people names to hide the fact that you don’t have the facts to support your very flawed view?

    Again, playing with sockies, I see, since you cannot support your argument, you have to resort to sock puppets.

    But at least you admit that you have admitted defeat again and again and that you can never be coherent nor win a rational argument.

    Like

  117. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 2:15 am

    I guess Christine Vara needs to tighten up on the monitoring of her threads,because again and again,you do nothing but personally attack individuals on every thread so I just call it like I see it,It is her article and she has not once stepped into the conversation,instead she allows you people to belittle anyone that speaks different about what is being presented,who’s the sock-puppet,99% of the time the guilty try to pass their guilt to someone else,you are the true definition of a marionette

    Like

  118. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 2:16 am

    now talk to the hand

    Like

  119. novalox
    October 2, 2014 at 3:57 am

    @michael

    Yawn, more pitiful insults, trying to pass off you lack of support for your assertions by using unfounded insults and ad hominems. Why am I not surprised?

    At least i do thank you for your admission that I have more intergrity than you can ever hope of having, since you keep posting insults and lies at me and the regulars. So, keep on posting, spewing your lies, since we all know that you mean the opposite.

    How do you like being reduced to a blabbering poster? Since you keep proving again and again that you do not have any support for your views, and that your only reply is to insult others when asked for evidence?

    Please, keep on posting, sockie. I do need my entertainment, and you can keep showing the world how little you really know, and I do need my laughs at your expense, since you apparently keep coming back.

    Like

  120. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 8:38 am

    “Gray Falcon,,,If you get the Flu vaccine and 2 months later get the flu and pass it on to someone undergoing chemotherapy, Will you take responsibility for infecting them?” I did what I could to prevent getting the flu, I performed due diligence. And before you whine about “natural remedies”, let me remind you that in 1918, there was no shortage of “natural remedies”, and that did nothing to prevent the flu pandemic that killed off 5% of the world’s human population.

    “now I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,” Are you going to do proper research? Are you going to back up your claims? Are you willing to learn how to use proper grammar? Or by “everything in my power”, do you simply mean “shout louder”?

    Like

  121. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:39 am

    you failed to answer the question,a simple yes or no would of sufficed,

    Like

  122. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 9:47 am

    Michael, if I had answered “yes”, you would have taken it as proof that the vaccine was ineffective. If I had simply answered “no”, you would have used it as proof that you, too, were not responsible. I gave a complex answer because you asked a complex question.

    Now, are you still involved in human trafficking? A simply “yes” or “no” will do.

    Like

  123. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 11:08 am

    Michael: “now talk to the hand”

    Promise you will really leave and stop your illiterate trolling?

    Like

  124. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 11:16 am

    GF,I asked you the same question you asked to someone else,,only reversed the role,and again,,you insert another question,that is irrelevant,if your human trafficking question pertains to whether I push people to get vaccines,,no,,if it pertains to whether I traffic people away from government control,,yes,although your asinine questions have been completely off topic,I have just been retorting your own biased remarks of constantly trying to belittle anyone that is not of the same mind-set as yourself,in this country,USA,a person has rights,something others as yourself are trying to take away,I have never vaxed for the flu,never will,would it be my fault if you had happened to get the flu from me,even though you are vaxed? if yes ,why?It would not be my fault you put faith into something that does not clearly 100% stop the virus and I would have to say,who are you to judge me for putting my faith in the healing powers of nature and not accepting a man made product that may not help me,so you be you,,and let me alone so I can be me,K?have a good day now

    Like

  125. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 11:26 am

    Chris,,does it suck being alone,I see you have learned nothing from the book you have read in your pic,this has turned into nothing more than a banter of goads,so as politely as I can,I bid you adieu

    Like

  126. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 11:49 am

    The book is about calculus. A subject that is more advanced than the simple math I used abve on the NVICP statistics. Since you did not understand simple ratios or that 73 is not more than a hundred, I sincerely doubt you can understand that book.

    Now, please stop trolling.

    Like

  127. novalox
    October 2, 2014 at 11:58 am

    @michael

    Still whining that you cannot understand elementary school math or that you admit that you cannot handle the questions asked of you?

    Why am I not surprised by your evasions and name calling.

    Like

  128. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    michael:

    “I have put for forth what I believe to be truth”

    I’m not disputing that you belevie this, Micahael, but I’m curious why. How exactly have you determined what you believe to be true actually is true? Your conclusion must proceed from some body of credible evidence–and as has been pointed out the healthimpactnews article is anything but.

    Anthony:

    “There is approximately 1 case of Guillain-Barré Syndrome per million flu vaccines above the baseline rate.”

    If we accept this as valid we’ll have to conclude that there are also approximately 9.7 cases of GBS per influenza-like infection. From PMID:19033158 “The relative incidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome within 90 days of vaccination was 0.76 (95% confidence interval: 0.41, 1.40). In contrast, the relative incidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome within 90 days of an influenzalike illness was 7.35 (95% confidence interval: 4.36, 12.38), with the greatest relative incidence (16.64, 95% confidence interval: 9.37, 29.54) within 30 days…The authors found no evidence of an increased risk of Guillain-Barré syndrome after seasonal influenza vaccine. The finding of a greatly increased risk after influenzalike illness is consistent with anecdotal reports of a preceding respiratory illness in Guillain-Barré syndrome and has important implications for the risk/benefit assessment that would be carried out should pandemic vaccines be deployed in the future.”

    ” I don’t feel I need to risk injury from a vaccine because I may get somebody else sick.”

    What specific injuries do you feel you’re risking from a vaccine, and what evidence demonstrates the risks asociated with vaccines exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against? If it’s GBS you’re worried about clearly you want to get vaccinated against influenza (see the citation given above).

    Like

  129. Rick Stevens
    October 2, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    Gray Falcon,
    I have a relative who was permanently paralyzed by the flu vaccine. And the driver of my son’s school bus said that she drove a child who had been disabled by the flu vaccine. And she said she knew several adults who had broken out with a severe case of the flu a few days after getting the vaccine. We do not have any way to conclusively prove anything, but must make our decisions based on what we read and what we know has happened to people we know. if you are going to try to coerce people into getting the vaccine because of guilt about possibly giving someone the flu if they don’t get the vaccine, you need to be very sure that you would be willing to take financial and moral responsibility for those who may be permanently injured if they follow your advice. Adverse reactions to the vaccine are not rare, as you seem to think.

    Like

  130. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 12:48 pm

    Mr. Stevens, please post their VAERS reports and how well they did with NVICP. Without those we can just assume you made them up.

    “We do not have any way to conclusively prove anything, but must make our decisions based on what we read and what we know has happened to people we know.”

    The reason you do not have a way to prove anything is because you believe fantasy stories. We will just stick to the actual verifiable science.

    Like

  131. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:12 pm

    @Chris
    Fantasy stories? You need to get out more often. Are you trying to claim that there is no verifiable evidence of injuries caused by the flu vaccine or vaccine’s in general?

    Like

  132. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:23 pm

    @Gray Falcon
    Can’t you answer the “complex” question? It’s either a yes or no. There is no other option. You either would, or would not, take responsibility.

    Like

  133. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    @Anthony: Are you still involved in human trafficking? It’s either a yes or no. There is no other option.

    Like

  134. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    “I have a relative who was permanently paralyzed by the flu vaccine.”

    How was it factually established that the vacine was the cause of that relative’s paralysis, Rick? It’s on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy, I trust.

    “And the driver of my son’s school bus said that she drove a child who had been disabled by the flu vaccine.”

    And again: how exactly did the driver factually establish that this child’s disabilities were caused by the flu vaccine?

    “And she said she knew several adults who had broken out with a severe case of the flu a few days after getting the vaccine.”

    Their bad fortune to have been exposed to and contracting influenza in the days prior to receiving the vaccination–certainly there’s no reason to presume their infections were a consequence of being vaccinated. Injectable flu vaccines do not contain live virus, and the only live virus flu vaccine (Flumist) contains an attenuated virus with demonstrably reduced virulence. Unless those adults were severely immunocompromised (e.g., undergoing chemotherapy, recent recipients of an organ or bone marrow transplant) in which case they wouldn’t be suitable candidates for vaccination Flumist could not result in infection.

    “We do not have any way to conclusively prove anything, but must make our decisions based on what we read and what we know has happened to people we know.”

    What you “know happened to people [you] know”, isn’t taht the vaccine caused the injuries you’re attributing to it however (unless of course you can answer the question of how you factually established the vacine caused your relative’s paralysis). Basing your conclusions on what you’ve read is reasonable only if you read critically and base your conclusions on credible reports and studies rather than inaccurate or hyperbolic reports and deliberate anti-vax mis-information (such as the michael linked to in his first post to this thread).

    Like

  135. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Michael: Learn how to write properly. I couldn’t parse that paragraph of word salad at all.

    Anthony: If you want an answer, then no, I wouldn’t be responsible, because I took every possible precaution, and it still happened. If someone didn’t vaccinate, they would be responsible, because they didn’t take the proper precautions. “Natural Remedies” are not proper precautions, they existed in 1918, and did nothing to stop the pandemic.

    Like

  136. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:33 pm

    @Gray
    The answer would be no.

    And I’ll accept your non-answer to the questions as a no, you would not take responsibility.

    Like

  137. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    Anthony: So you’re saying you used to be involved in human trafficking?

    Like

  138. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    Oh, and in case you missed my answer, I’ll repeat it: No, I would not be responsible, because I took every possible precaution, and it still happened.

    Like

  139. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    @Gray
    To be clear, I am not, nor ever have been involved in it.

    Like

  140. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    @Gray
    That’s what I predicted you would say!

    Like

  141. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    @Gray
    You are the only person who brought up “natural remedies”

    Like

  142. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    I hope you have a citation that proves that all natural remedies are ineffective at preventing sickness and disease. Ever heard of Vit D2?

    Like

  143. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    Anthony Segulini: “To be clear, I am not, nor ever have been involved in it.” I’m sorry, only yes or no answers are accepted.

    If you were in charge of guarding a vault, fall asleep on the job, and the vault got broken into, would you be responsible for what happened?

    If you were in charge of guarding a vault, did everything you were supposed to, and the vault got broken into, would you be responsible for what happened?

    Do you understand the difference between the two questions?

    Like

  144. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    @jgc56
    Are you also trying to claim that there is no verifiable evidence of injuries caused by the flu vaccine or vaccine’s in general?
    You can’t have it both ways. Either you admit that vaccines can and do injure or you are stating that they don’t.

    Like

  145. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:46 pm

    @Gray
    Give up already. You already admitted that you wouldn’t be responsible.

    Like

  146. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    “I hope you have a citation that proves that all natural remedies are ineffective at preventing sickness and disease. Ever heard of Vit D2?” I never said that. I only said that the flu vaccine was far more effective.

    “Are you also trying to claim that there is no verifiable evidence of injuries caused by the flu vaccine or vaccine’s in general?” No, he didn’t, he just asked for evidence they were caused by the vaccine.

    “Give up already. You already admitted that you wouldn’t be responsible.” Yes, I needed to explain why I wasn’t responsible.

    Now tell me something. Why do you feel you have a right to misrepresent other people’s words?

    Like

  147. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    @Gray
    If you can’t answer the questions then maybe you shouldn’t be commenting. Maybe you would be better off just reading the comments. You tend to avoid every direct question with another question or some sort of off-topic tangent.

    Like

  148. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    @Gray
    Ok, do you have a citation or any proof of this comment of yours?

    “And before you whine about “natural remedies”, let me remind you that in 1918, there was no shortage of “natural remedies”, and that did nothing to prevent the flu pandemic that killed off 5% of the world’s human population.”

    Is that better Gray?

    Like

  149. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 2:07 pm

    ‘Are you also trying to claim that there is no verifiable evidence of injuries caused by the flu vaccine or vaccine’s in general? ”

    Not at all–whatever gave you the impression I was? There are adverse consequences which are associated with vaccination. Those that are common–soreness at the site of injection or a low grade fever of short duration, for example–are also both tranisent and minor while those that are serious–encephalopathy, for example–are exceedingly rare. An with the posible exception of the 1976 swine flu vaccine GBS does not seem to be a genuine adverse consequence associated with flu vaccines.

    ‘Either you admit that vaccines can and do injure or you are stating that they don’t.”

    False dichotomy, anthony. There’s at least a third position, which is the one I’ve actually expressed: that although vaccines can rarely cause serious adverse events the risks associated with routine vaccination are far, far lower than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against. It woudl serve you well to recall that influenza results in thousands of hospitalizations and more than one hundred deaths each year in the United States alone. There’s no evidence that vaccination results in hospitalizations/deaths at an incidence rate remotely close to an equivalent, let alone greater, than this incidence. (Certainly you’ve offered no such evidence.)

    Like

  150. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    The fact is that vaccines do injure people and there is verifiable evidence of this.
    So for you people to say it is just “fantasy stories” and mock those who bring up injuries is completely asinine. A person has every right to make the decision not to vaccinate based on a risk of injury, no matter how small you think it might be, period.

    Like

  151. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    Anthony- I answered your question. I didn’t lie about what you said. That’s more than what you’ve ever done for me.

    If you want info on the flu pandemic:
    https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/fluscimed.html.

    See, not that hard. Why can’t you do anything like that? Because you act like a petulant child who stomps his feet and cries whenever he doesn’t what he wants, that’s why!

    Like

  152. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 2:11 pm

    @jgc56
    Your “third” position brings in another factor. That wasn’t the question.
    You mock those who bring up injuries and that is where I got the impression that you didn’t believe they could cause harm. If you admit they can cause harm, then stop mocking those who bring it up.

    Like

  153. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    @Gray
    How old are you? You remind me of my young teenage son.

    Like

  154. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    “The fact is that vaccines do injure people and there is verifiable evidence of this.”

    What’s lacking, however, is verifiable evidence that the paralysis Rick’s relative suffered, etc., were caused by vaccines.

    “So for you people to say it is just “fantasy stories” and mock those who bring up injuries is completely asinine.”

    I’m not saying these stories represent fantasy: Rick’s relative may be paralyzed; the paralysis may have occurred at some time following receiving a vaccination. I’m simply noting–accurately–that they do not establish causation and indeed that the idea that a causal association exisst appears to rest on nothing other than a psot hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy..

    “A person has every right to make the decision not to vaccinate based on a risk of injury, no matter how small you think it might be, period.”

    It isn’t how small i think it might be, however: it’s how samll the available evidence demonstrates it to be. (Consider again encephalopathy. I don’t THINK that the risk associated with measles vaccination is 1 in 1 million doses received, and I don’t THINK the risk associated with measles is 1 in every 1 thousand infections: passive and active postmarketing surveillance has established those values objectively.)

    “You mock those who bring up injuries and that is where I got the impression that you didn’t believe they could cause harm.”

    I’ve mocked no one who has brought up injuries that I’m aware of–can you provide a quote from a post I’ve authored where I’ve done so?

    You appear to have drawn a mistaken conclusion from my comments: no where have I argued that vaccines are not associated with some low incidence of adverse events (the most common of which are both minor and transient), only that the risk associated with vaccination is far, far lower than the risk associated with remaining vulnerable to infection.

    Like

  155. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 2:27 pm

    “The fact is that vaccines do injure people and there is verifiable evidence of this.”

    And you have refused to provide the verifiable evidence that vaccines cause as much harm as the disease. Why is that?

    Why should we care about you and your friends’ stories? Until you provide actual proof they will be regarded as pure fantasy. Go to the comment I wrote on September 29, 2014 at 4:02 pm, and provide actual proof that the vaccine causes at least a hundred deaths per year, which is almost equal to the average annual number of pediatric influenza deaths.

    Like

  156. Lawrence
    October 2, 2014 at 2:28 pm

    @Anthony – can vaccines cause a measure of harm? Yes.

    Does that harm occur in anywhere near the numbers that you or others claim? No.

    Why do we know this? Because massive amounts of research has been done – vaccine safety and reactions are tracked, not only by VAERS but through the Vaccine Surveillance Network and also tracked by multiple regulatory agencies overseas as well.

    Serious reactions are extremely rare & investigated…..that’s just a fact.

    Like

  157. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 2:34 pm

    @jcg56, chris, and lawrence

    Again, a person has every right to make the decision not to vaccinate based on a risk of injury, no matter how small you think it might be, period.

    I recently went on a trip to Peru and one of the vaccines they wanted to give me had a very small risk of causing all of my organs to slowly shut down and stop working. I chose not to get that vaccine even though the risk was low. My choice, and my right. Same as those who choose not to take the small risk (your claims) to get any vaccine.

    Like

  158. Lawrence
    October 2, 2014 at 2:46 pm

    @Anthony – then don’t complain when certain restrictions get put in place regarding your potential interactions in a public setting.

    I.E. Don’t complain when unvaccinated children are sent home from school during an outbreak (and kept at home for as long as 21 days).

    Like

  159. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 2:49 pm

    “Again, a person has every right to make the decision not to vaccinate based on a risk of injury, no matter how small you think it might be, period.”

    That is fine, but if any person makes a claim that the vaccine causes significant harm then they need to support those claims with real verifiable evidence. My kid suffered seizures from an actual disease, but I don’t just base my opinion on the dangers of that particular virus. I rely on real epidemiological evidence. Like the dozens of influenza studies here. Something that you or your friends have failed to provide.

    Okay, you did link to the Cochrane reviews that noted influenza is dangerous to children, the vaccines are safe and there is a need in improvement in both the vaccines and studies.

    Like

  160. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 2:50 pm

    “Again, a person has every right to make the decision not to vaccinate based on a risk of injury, no matter how small you think it might be, period.”

    And again: continuing to use the phrase “how small you think it might be” is to be willfully deceitful. We aren’t discussing how small anyone thinks or doesn’t think the risk is but how small the existing body of evidence demonstrates it to be.

    “My choice, and my right.”

    Where have I argued that you don’t have a right to choose not to be vaccinated? I’m simply pointing out that the reason why you’ve chosen to do so–your belief that it would be riskier to be vaccinated against theses infectious diseases than it is to remain vulnerable to being infected by them–is mistaken.

    “Same as those who choose not to take the small risk [as objectively demonstrated] to get any vaccine.”

    FTFY

    Like

  161. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    Exactly Lawrence,,that is when the school will call in CPS saying the parent neglected the child,a government agency pulls the child from the home because of the amount of school missed and while in in said care of the state forces the child to get the vaxes,,hence my first comment,”yes school are doing a fine job”

    Like

  162. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    @jgc56
    “And again: continuing to use the phrase “how small you think it might be” is to be willfully deceitful. We aren’t discussing how small anyone thinks or doesn’t think the risk is but how small the existing body of evidence demonstrates it to be.”

    Just ask Chris, that is exactly what he/she is arguing.
    She wants proof that vaccines cause as much harm as the disease. That would mean comparing vaccine injuries to disease injuries and thus arguing how small the risk is. And that is not the point.

    Like

  163. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 3:04 pm

    @lawrence
    Don’t worry I won’t be complaining about any of those issues.

    Like

  164. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    Michael, since when has that happened when the school has told the child to stay home due to an outbreak?

    Yes, Mr. Segulini, the issue is relative risk. All this time you and your friends have made claims that there are a large number of injuries from vaccines with statements like:

    “Do you know how many thousands are hospitalized after getting the flu vaccine?”

    ” but since vaccines are by no means perfect, that in combination with the risk makes me elect not to risk it.”

    “But the combination of them not being effective and the risks together, makes my decision easier not to get them.”

    It is up to you to provide the verifiable data of the relative risks to support those claims. I have every right to call you out on those statements and that you have failed to support them.

    Just as I have every right and cause to call out Michael to posting a link to an article titled “Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S. based on Settled Cases for Injuries.” He keeps saying he did not say the vaccines were more dangerous, but he cannot deny he posted that innumerate article written by a coconut oil seller.

    If you don’t like being asked to prove your claims. don’t make unverified claims and expect us to believe you and your friends.

    Like

  165. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    @Chris
    I don’t see anything about “there are a large number of injuries” in this statement and I stand by it.

    “But the combination of them not being effective and the risks together, makes my decision easier not to get them.”

    Like

  166. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    @Chris
    “If you don’t like being asked to prove your claims and expect us to believe you and your friends.”

    You already admitted my claim which was that vaccines do cause injuries. Why would I need to prove it to you?

    My other statement is that you should not mock people who don’t vaccinate for fear of an injury, since we all know that it is possible.

    Like

  167. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 3:30 pm

    Chris,,how come you aren’t asking Lawrence that question?He give a scenario,I give him a possible/plausible outcome to that scenario,your point?and yes,,I did not say vaccines were dangerous but I did post a link that people are showing proof of it to be so,that link is showing where they compiled their assertions,as far as personally unverifiable claims,,ask G.F the prove he has he is autistic,am I calling him a liar,no,,I don’t know him,I can only take his word for it,same difference as if someone else says they have experienced problems or know someone personally dealing with major side affects of Vaccines

    Like

  168. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 3:35 pm

    “I did not say vaccines were dangerous but I did post a link that people are showing proof of it to be so”

    And I showed you why it was very wrong.

    “You already admitted my claim which was that vaccines do cause injuries.”

    Except you left out the denominator. You have to show the vaccines cause harm at a level that is equivalent to the disease. Why do you have problems with that?

    Like

  169. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 3:42 pm

    @Chris
    “Except you left out the denominator. You have to show the vaccines cause harm at a level that is equivalent to the disease. Why do you have problems with that?”

    No I don’t, I elect not get vaccines because of the risk and lack of effectiveness, period.

    Like

  170. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 3:45 pm

    So you would rather take the risk of actually getting influenza than the teeny tiny that of a vaccine?

    Like

  171. Lawrence
    October 2, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    @Chris – Anthony probably also believes, that because there is a small risk of him being in a car accident, that he should not need to wear a seatbelt….

    Since vaccines are incredibly safe & also much more effective than not getting the vaccine, there is no logical reason not to get one. Again, one should wish that all products and devices we utilize on a daily basis were as safe as vaccines.

    But then again, anti-vaccine individuals seem to be very short on logic and common sense (and rationality, as well).

    Vaccinate / don’t vaccinate – it is a choice, but it should be a choice based on actual evidence and Science, not anti-vax scaremongering.

    Like

  172. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 4:37 pm

    “Vaccinate / don’t vaccinate – it is a choice, but it should be a choice based on actual evidence and Science, not anti-vax scaremongering.”

    And real numbers, not fantasy numbers. See my analysis of the link from Michael I posted on September 29, 2014 at 4:02 pm. See other numbers listed here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/summary.htm

    It indicates over 9000 hospitalizations between Oct. 2013 and May 2014, and at least 95 pediatric deaths. And there were more of the latter as indicated by this bar chart:
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm#MS2

    Like

  173. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    “She wants proof that vaccines cause as much harm as the disease.”

    Of course she does, because that is exactly the point: comaprison of the frequency and severity of the adverse outcomes assoicated with vaccination versus the frequency and severity of the adverse outcomes associated with remaining vulnerable to infection. If being vaccinated does not at least confer an equivalent degree of risk as vulnerable to the infection failing to comply with the recommneded schedule is irrational.

    As for electing not to be vaccination because of “lack of effectiveness”, your evidence that vaccination does not significantly lower ones the risk of contracting an infectious disease would be…what,exactly? Citations needed.

    Like

  174. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    Omitted word: If being vaccinated does not at least confer an equivalent degree of risk as remaining vulnerable to the infection failing to comply with the recommneded schedule is irrational.”

    I’d like also to point out that if being vaccinated does not at least confer an equivalent degree of risk as remaining vulnerable to infection, advocating others similarly elect not to comply is unethical.

    Like

  175. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 5:18 pm

    @Chris
    “So you would rather take the risk of actually getting influenza than the teeny tiny that of a vaccine?”

    The answer is YES!!!!!

    Like

  176. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 5:19 pm

    @lawrence
    “Anthony probably also believes, that because there is a small risk of him being in a car accident, that he should not need to wear a seatbelt….”

    Wrong again lawrence. I wear my seat belt all of the time.

    Like

  177. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 5:22 pm

    “The answer is YES!!!!!”

    Either you are innumerate or something else. Because wanting to take a larger chance of getting sick with real consequences instead of a much lower risk of the vaccine defies logic.

    Like

  178. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    @jgc56
    “As for electing not to be vaccination because of “lack of effectiveness”, your evidence that vaccination does not significantly lower ones the risk of contracting an infectious disease would be…what,exactly? Citations needed.”

    It depends on the vaccine. Some are more effective than others.
    The “3rd option” is the disease itself, each one is different in regards to the relative risks.

    Like

  179. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    @Chris
    “Either you are innumerate or something else. Because wanting to take a larger chance of getting sick with real consequences instead of a much lower risk of the vaccine defies logic.”

    Really? The flu never injured me in years past, why would I assume it would the next time? And as I mentioned before, I haven’t had the flu or flu-like symptoms since I stopped getting the vaccine a few years ago.

    Like

  180. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 5:28 pm

    @Chris
    It’s too bad you just can’t respect my view and my right not to vaccinate due to the ineffectiveness of the vaccines and the “relative” risk. I’ve weighed the options and make an educated decision.

    Like

  181. Lawrence
    October 2, 2014 at 5:59 pm

    @Anthony – so, you’ve be crowing about making a “personal decision for yourself.”

    So how about those who are in fact vulnerable & require protection?

    Like

  182. Anthony Segulini
    October 2, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    @lawrence
    What about them? What is your question?

    I am responsible for my own health and that of my family before anybody else. Does that answer your question?

    Like

  183. October 2, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    @Anthony – unfortunately yes . That tells me all I need to know.

    Like

  184. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    “Really? The flu never injured me in years past, why would I assume it would the next time? And as I mentioned before, I haven’t had the flu or flu-like symptoms since I stopped getting the vaccine a few years ago.”

    I have not had the flu since getting an annual flu shot in the last several years. I started to get annual flu shots the year after I spent over a week feeling like death warmed over with massive muscle aches from influenza.

    Your logic defies reality.

    Like

  185. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    “I am responsible for my own health and that of my family before anybody else.” This sounds like the philosophy of someone who would drive over other people just to get to work on time.

    Like

  186. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 7:45 pm

    y’all are so powerfully concerned about the welfare of others,,how many of you are fighting to keep 1.2 mil abortions from happening,pro-vaccine is equivalent,to pro-life is it not,i know it is off topic but y’all are worried of saving 100 deaths a yr from not being vaccinated,are you this adamant over saving 1.2 mil a yr?

    Like

  187. October 2, 2014 at 7:54 pm

    Best way to prevent abortions?

    Sex education and ready access to birth control, I am in favor of both.

    Like

  188. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 8:05 pm

    Lawrence, and another way is to making sure all are educated. It seems Michael missed out of lots of basic education. Sad, really.

    To day in the mail was an invitation to a talk about helping foster children get higher education from a charity that we give donations to for them to help foster children, and another thank you note from WorldVision that helps children in developing countries. We also donate to the Scottish Rite program that provides speech therapy for children (they provided over three years worth to our oldest), the local children’s hospital and our local library foundation.

    So, Micheal, do you also walk the talk?

    Like

  189. October 2, 2014 at 8:13 pm

    @Chris – people like Michael are mostly pro-birth and to hell with supporting all the unwanted children that result….

    Like

  190. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 8:21 pm

    Le sigh. And so sad.

    Like

  191. novalox
    October 2, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    @anthony, michael

    I guess that you don’t eat any food or drink, because there is a small risk (higher than an adverse affect from vaccine) that you will aspirate, choke and die. I guess that also means that you shouldn’t be using your computer or any electrical device, since there is always a risk that you will be electrocuted and die. I guess that means you shouldn’t post here anymore, but then again, your continued postings here belie your hypocrisy.

    Heck, I guess you shouldn’t be breathing, since there is a small risk that you inhale some CO or fumes and die from asphyxiation. How in the world you do that, that is a wonder?

    Like

  192. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 8:53 pm

    I gave up on Anthony when he started misrepresenting my statements. Michael’s just spouting word salad now. I’d mention that according to the Bible, causing a miscarriage (Exodus 21:22) is a misdemeanor, but that isn’t relevant.

    Like

  193. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:00 pm

    Actually have better schooling than what you are insinuating considering i didn’t make it past the 7th grade,but there it is again,,the snide goading from so-called upper class that think their way is the only way

    Like

  194. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 9:05 pm

    Then why don’t you work on your lack of education? That is exactly why there are adult basic literacy and math classes offered at community colleges. Only you can do something about it, and it would benefit many parts of your life. Some public languages even provide free literacy classes.

    Like

  195. Lawrence
    October 2, 2014 at 9:09 pm

    That says all we need to know about Michael, unfortunately.

    Like

  196. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    Here is an example of adult basic education programs. Michael, all you have to do is have an open mind, willing to learn and do the work. It would do so much to improve your life.

    Like

  197. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    Michael, you seem to have some strange idea that medically termination of an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy shares identity with the death of a human being. By what rational argument would that be the case?

    Like

  198. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 9:24 pm

    Michael, you said “now I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,” why does this not include getting an education and learning to communicate clearly?

    Like

  199. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:24 pm

    GF,,,are you daft,,,Exodus 21:22 states nothing of a misdemeanor,it does not speak of a woman aborting at will,,it speaks of men striving a woman to cause loss of child and if no other injury then they shall be punished as her husband deems and pay as a judge determines,yet most abortions preformed today are of unwed mothers as a form of birth-control

    Like

  200. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:31 pm

    who says I’m not educated?just because the last grade I completed was the 6th grade is not relevant

    Like

  201. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 9:32 pm

    Michael, if terminating a pregnancy were murder, causing a miscarriage would have been punishable by death. Not that I expect you to understand basic logic.

    Earlier,you said “now I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,” why does this not include getting an education and learning to communicate clearly? I’ll keep repeating the question until I get an answer.

    Like

  202. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:36 pm

    Jg56,,I don’t understand what you are asking,,,isn’t an unborn baby still not a baby? isn’t a death relevant any way it comes?

    Like

  203. Gray Falcon
    October 2, 2014 at 9:39 pm

    “,isn’t an unborn baby still not a baby?” Not according to the Bible, it isn’t. Now tell me, when you said “now I will do everything in my power to bring truth to others,” why have you not learned how to communicate in such a way that other people understand.

    Like

  204. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:46 pm

    but alas GF,,terminating a pregnancy is not murder in the eyes of our government,,I say it is because my faith says it is,,what part of schooling is there that i need for me to know right from wrong?It is wrong for you to tell me what I need to do for me or my children,unless it is law of the land,there is no law stating that I must be vaccinated, or my children,no one ,and I mean no one has the right to tell someone else what they can do to their own body,that is the reason why a woman CAN get an abortion,that is the point and comparison of the two

    Like

  205. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:49 pm

    G.F. wrong,,,,according to bible,an unborn baby is the same as a living one,,hence the reason the husband of the woman can condemn the person that cause the miscarriage to be put to death,,an eye for an eye

    Like

  206. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 9:52 pm

    GF,,,you understanding me enough to belittle me,as if you are above me,you don’t know me as I don;t no you,,for all i know ,you could be lying when you say you are autistic which you have stated in other threads,is that lie?or should I take you at your word?

    Like

  207. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 9:59 pm

    Michael: “who says I’m not educated?just because the last grade I completed was the 6th grade is not relevant”

    You said you were not since you did not even finish junior high school. We can tell by your lack of reading skills, odd use of commas and that you cannot understand simple math. It also explains your problems with basic science and risk assessment.

    Only you can improve your reading and math skills. What are you afraid of? No one will make fun of you because you did not finish school, they will try to help you. You should only be judged only for not even trying. Learning basic language and math skills can only improve your life. Please at least try.

    Perhaps someone in your church can help you find a good program or even a tutor.

    Like

  208. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 10:14 pm

    so according to you,I’m not educated because I didn’t finish the 7th grade?see,,that is what is ailing most of you,,,its funny,,,when i was 18 I took a placement test for my GED and scored 2890 out of a possible 3000,a wk later the sent me a diploma instead of placing me a grade,I’m 48 yrs old now,retired/disabled,earned enough money since I was 15 to claim that grants me my social security of 2100+ a mth,I think i educated myself quite well for me to be able to collect early and never have to work again,do i need y’all to tell me what i need to do,,no i think I do just fine for myself thank you

    Like

  209. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 10:15 pm

    and as i stated before,i have a busted keyboard on my phone

    Like

  210. Chris
    October 2, 2014 at 10:24 pm

    Sorry you broke your keyboard. I missed that because your writing is hard to read.

    Still, if you are retired, you have no reason to not take adult basic education classes. If you got a GED, why are your math skills so low?

    “social security of 2100+ a mth”

    And yet you hate the government. Le sigh.

    Like

  211. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 10:26 pm

    Michael, now you’re speaking as if Exodus or the bible as a whole were known to possess some inherent authority. Whatever for?

    Like

  212. jgc56
    October 2, 2014 at 10:45 pm

    “Jg56,,I don’t understand what you are asking,,,isn’t an unborn baby still not a baby?”

    If by the term ‘unborn baby’ you’re actually referring to a zygote, embryo or fetus at different time points during gestation, then no: clearly these don’t share identity with a human child at all stages of development.

    “isn’t a death relevant any way it comes?”

    Clearly not all deaths, Michael, as we kill living things every day without ethical concern or consequence or labeling the act murder: micro-organisms like bacteria and fungi, plants, non-human animals. Chemotherapy kills millions of demonstrably living cancer cells, but I doubt you describe this as an act of genocide. With respect to murder the death becomes relevant when the entity killed can also be shown to represent a human being–and that clearly isn’t the case at all stages during gestation, when itself of a human being or ‘unborn baby’ we’re actually talking about a human zygote, embryo or fetus.

    Like

  213. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    jgc56,,I imagine if you were paying attention you would be realizing I did not bring the bible into this,GF brought it into this,Exodus 21:22 for that matter,I did however comment about that,Chris,,I hate the government when it tries to step on its people,,,but I must say,that I earned and paid in for me to receive what I get,I would much rather be building custom homes as I was up to 3 yrs ago,however a fall from 2 stories up on a conventional framed 10/12 roof system severed my spine,,i cannot concentrate long enough because of the constant pain,I refuse to become dependent on prescription pain medication,i can’t sit for long periods,stand or lay down for long periods,needless to say,I am a complete ass to be around

    Like

  214. Michael
    October 2, 2014 at 11:01 pm

    well,,that is what you believe and may be scientifically accurate,but of my faith,life begins at conception,therefor what ever you have to say on the matter is irrelevant

    Like

  215. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 1:22 am

    Michael: “,I hate the government”

    Then refuse all payments in the form of Social Security and Medicare. Taking that federal income tax income makes you a slave to the government! Your medical issues are not the tax payers’ problem, They are yours!

    You are the one who decided to drop out of school in seventh grade! Why should the rest of us pay for your very flawed decision?. Only you can decide whether or not to continue your education in the form of adult basic education, which is available all over the USA.

    Your lack of education is not our fault, it is all yours. Only you can correct that. You have been directed to programs to correct that, your failure to enhance you education is all from you.

    What are you afraid of?

    Like

  216. Michael
    October 3, 2014 at 8:45 am

    Well Chris,,,I don’t know what your malfunction is but you do you and i will do me,Okeydokey?

    Like

  217. jgc56
    October 3, 2014 at 10:11 am

    “,,I imagine if you were paying attention you would be realizing I did not bring the bible into this,GF brought it into this”

    Then I apologize and stand corrected: you do not believe the bible possess an inherent authority or speaks definitively with repect to the morality of terminating an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.

    “but of my faith,life begins at conception,therefor what ever you have to say on the matter is irrelevant”

    Life clearly begins PRIOR to conception–the spermatozoa and the ovum are both demonstrably alive.

    And I’m afraid that it’s actually the evidence (which you concede may be accurate( that’s relevant to discussions of ethical abortion, not articles of religious faith. After all, NO degree of faith (however sincerely held) is sufficient to establish what one believes to be true actually is true. If it were, every religious tradition on the planet, no matter how mutually contraditory, must be considered to be equally and simultaneously true by virtue of their adherents’ faith. Allah is god, Brahma is god, Marduk is god–all equally true. There’s only one god and there are multiple pantehons of gods–all equaully true. And within traditions there must be multiple equally true by diametiraccly opposed articles of faith–in Christian traditions you’re simulatenously saved by works and not by faith and also saved by faith and not by works.

    You want the rest of us to consider a fertilized ovum to represent an actual human being? then make a genuine case for it–something that has some basis other than “That’s what I personally believe my invisible friend tells us”.

    Like

  218. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 11:30 am

    Michael, what kind of terrible school district allows a child to drop out of school before high school? Plus why would anyone not even try to improve their reading and math skills?

    It does not make sense. It is as sensible as taking a greater chance of getting very sick with influenza instead of getting a safe vaccine.

    Like

  219. Michael
    October 3, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    Jgc56,,you are correct in what you say ,,but a human life as in a baby,person can not become a life until conception how ever the two may come together and i beg to differ,Christ died on a cross,,does anyone have actual proof of this other than documentation as historical fact,this is why I say that no matter what you say on the matter at hand is irrelevant,what is perceived through Science is no different because unless you are a master in the field(scientist)and actually have been first hand doing these studies,you are only going by what is presented to you,and by (faith) you take it as truth,just as you are trying to tell me what I read against vaccines is not true,bottom line is,if you yourself did not do these studies first hand,
    (hands on experience) a hand in making said vaccines,administering said vaccines and monitoring the experiments with them,,then you are no different then me,science is what you are putting faith in off of what you are being told,I choice my faith in Jesus Christ,I believe in everything and that ALL things are possible,Have a good day

    Like

  220. Michael
    October 3, 2014 at 12:49 pm

    Chris,Are you that naive to not believe that some people have it better than others?You may of had the better means at getting your education,I ,on the other hand did not,I was the oldest,and dropped out to help my mother take care of my siblings so she could take care of my dying father and work 3 jobs to take care of us,I come from a poor family,so what of it?,public school systems back then were not like they are today,today,it is mandatory that a child has schooling,publicly,privately or home-schooled,it was not that way when i was younger,again,,get off your high horse and quit looking down your nose at me

    Like

  221. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    I am more then ten years older than you, and truancy laws were very much in effect in the 1970s. My brother continued to go to school and get into college after my mother died and my dad was away from home while taking care of his younger sisters.

    I graduated from the ninth school district I attended, I would have had to go to a third high school but I did the work to graduate from the second one. I did not want to repeat my brother’s history of going for four high schools.

    If your keyboard is broken, then get yourself to your local library, apply for a library card and use their computers. You might want to actually try reading some books on basic math and biology. Since you did not take a high school civics class, you should probably also check out books on American history and government. Try finding someone in your church to help you.

    If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop changing the subject and do something about your issues with literacy. You only have yourself to blame.

    Like

  222. jgc56
    October 3, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    “but a human life as in a baby,person can not become a life until conception”
    Agreed that the first step in gestational development is fertilization (i.e., conception) which results in an embryo. That embryo, if it successfully implants, may proceed through additional developmental stages to result in the delivery of a human newborn—the baby you speak of. This does not argue that at all stages of development the zygote, embryo or fetus are ethically indistinguishable from an adult or juvenile human being.

    “Christ died on a cross”
    This represents an article of faith and not a statement of fact, Michael.

    “through Science is no different because unless you are a master in the field(scientist)and actually have been first hand doing these studies,you are only going by what is presented to you,and by (faith) you take it as truth”
    Are you really trying to support your position by claiming the only way to identify what is and is not true, what does and does not constitute evidence, is by direct firsthand observation? Seriously?

    “just as you are trying to tell me what I read against vaccines is not true,bottom line is,if you yourself did not do these studies first hand, (hands on experience) a hand in making said vaccines,administering said vaccines and monitoring the experiments with them,,then you are no different then me”
    No, I’m actually quite different than you, as I’m considering the entire body of evidence available which speaks to vaccine safety, while you’re clearly only considering claims that support a preferred and opre-determined position (that vaccination confers greater risk than remaining vulnerable to infectious disease).

    “science is what you are putting faith in off of what you are being told”
    Again: my confidence in the demonstrated safety of vaccination is not an article of faith, but a conclusion drawn from a very large body of evidence, and unlike articles of faith it remains tentative–identify credible evidence falsifying this conclusion and I will of course alter my position.

    “I choice my faith in Jesus Christ,I believe in everything and that ALL things are possible”
    Choosing to place your faith in this or any other supernatural entity doesn’t constitute evidence for nor a rational argument in support of the premise that terminating a pregnancy shares identity with the killing of a human being.

    Like

  223. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    I cannot resist:

    Like

  224. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 2:33 pm

    And on a more serious note, and actually on topic:

    Like

  225. Anthony Segulini
    October 3, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    It is very, very disturbing to see the way you all have been treating Michael. The arrogance is truly unbelievable, and from people that say they care about others.

    Like

  226. Michael
    October 3, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    as i said ,to each his own,spin it however you need to,,you put faith in science because you BELIEVE it to be true,all scientist do it,,they believe what is presented,then on their studies find it was different than what was being told,just like back in the day,,people thought the world was flat,they believed what was told to them,now however someone proved that to be false,exactly the same concept here,Scientists are proving that harm does come to certain people that are vaccinated,no matter how minute the number,there is one difference when it comes to God,,no one has proven that a supernatural entity as you put it does not exist,YOU can’t prove One doesn’t,as i said before,,your bantering is irrelevant to me,I don’t care what you believe just as you don’t care about what I believe,,good day

    Like

  227. Lawrence
    October 3, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    @Anthony – you’ve never spent any time on anti-vax sites then I guess. Michael has been the one who has been hurling insults and denying factual information.

    I don’t have a lot of sympathy for someone who lacks common sense and the ability to think rationally.

    Like

  228. Michael
    October 3, 2014 at 4:18 pm

    you lie Lawrence,you stated That i have used foul language,,I have not have I dissed you people ,,yes,why?because of your condescending overtones,,you claim,,that the evidence you provide is indisputable,if that was the case,there would not be studies saying otherwise,but that is the main problem,,no one likes to be proven wrong,bottom line,,It is wrong of any of you to say harm does not come from vaccines,when clearly CDC and others say they do and is being proved more often in courts ,It is also proven that the vaccines does not stop the virus’s because if it did a vaccinated person would not get the virus,DUH!!!!so the whole argument to your belief is moot,,

    Like

  229. jgc56
    October 3, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    I can only speak to my own interaction with Michael,Anthony, but I’m not aware I’ve doe anything other than address the content and claims found in his posts. Did you have a specific complaint regarding response I’ve made to him, or are you just trone-trolling?

    Like

  230. jgc56
    October 3, 2014 at 4:37 pm

    “people thought the world was flat,they believed what was told to them,now however someone proved that to be false,exactly the same concept here”

    And how was the idea the earth was flat disproven? By the systematic collection and analysis of a body of objective facts demonstrating otherwise.

    I.e. the exact same process which hs demonstrated anti-vax claims that vaccination engenders greater risk than remaining vulnerable to the diseases they protect against to be false.

    BTW, you’re noting this makes me beleive that you (as do most people) accept taht it has been established that the earth rather than being flat is instead round. I’m curioushowever if you yourself personally “actually have been first hand doing [the] studies which demonstrate this to be true.

    If not, in view of your post dated “October 3, 2014 at 12:40 pm” should I assume that you don’t believe the earth has been shown to be an oblate spheroid, and your acceptance of the idea that it isn’t flat represents in your mind merely an unproven article of faith?

    “there is one difference when it comes to God,,no one has proven that a supernatural entity as you put it does not exist”

    The same can be said of any other supernatural entity you care to name: no one has proven leprechauns do not exist, or that elves do not exist, or that pixies, gnomes, lycanthropes, vampies, etc., do not exist. Would you acept as accurate the statement “God’s existence is as firmly established as the existence of unicorns and brownies”? If my argument took the form “Abortion isn’t murder because that’s what dragons have communicated to us, and no one has proven dragons don’t exist” would you consider that argument to be valid?

    Like

  231. Gray Falcon
    October 3, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    It’s worth noting that Michael only brought up abortion in an attempt to distract from the fact that the flu kills numerous people each year, far more than the vaccine did in over ten. Unfortunately, he only demonstrates the self-serving nature of so-called “pro-life” religion: He only really cares about the lives of embryos.

    Like

  232. Chris
    October 3, 2014 at 9:34 pm

    Obviously, I am being horrible by suggesting that Michael improve his reading, writing and math skills. My bad, because encouraging basic education is just pure evil.

    Like

  233. novalox
    October 3, 2014 at 10:50 pm

    @anthony

    Hmm, I don’t hear you piping up when you are your ilk make false accusations and use ad hominems.

    So, again, you are being a hypocrite in making fake accusations yet stay silent when your side flings unfounded insults and ad hominems

    Like

  234. Anthony Segulini
    October 4, 2014 at 1:02 am

    @Chris
    You are so full of it. I’m sure you were only trying to help Michael with you caring, positive attitude huh? What a joke you are. Sad thing is, I think you really believe you are a good person.

    Like

  235. Anthony Segulini
    October 4, 2014 at 1:05 am

    @jgc56
    “I can only speak to my own interaction with Michael,Anthony, but I’m not aware I’ve doe anything other than address the content and claims found in his posts. Did you have a specific complaint regarding response I’ve made to him, or are you just trone-trolling?”

    I didn’t mean to include you in the group. My apologies.

    Like

  236. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 1:52 am

    Mr. Segulini: “What a joke you are.”

    Cool, thank you. I don’t think Michael is stupid. I believe he was dealt a nasty hand in his youth. He is not stupid, he just had a bump his education. He is now retired and getting government funded disability payments, so he has both the time and the means to catch up on his missed education.

    I am a Army brat, so I have been around both in geography and social arenas. In my eighth grade PE class was a classmate who already had had baby and was waiting for her fourteenth birthday so she could legally marry the father of her baby. Later in high school I would wait to be picked up my by dad, but some of my classmates were waiting to be picked up by their husbands (young Army recruits).

    My mother-in-law never graduated from high school, but obtained higher education at the local community college. My idiotic boyfriend (now husband, who oddly enough is now a brilliant software engineer who gets calls when a manufacturing line goes down) decided that a good time to introduce me to his family was a celebration of her community college graduation and his younger sister’s high school graduation that involved relatives from both Canada and Europe. It was that big of a deal.

    What is so freaking wrong in telling Michael about programs that are exist so he can improve his English and math skills?

    Like

  237. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 1:57 am

    AARgh… must fix”
    What is so freaking wrong in telling Michael about
    programs that are
    that programs exist so he can improve his English and math skills?

    Like

  238. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 2:00 am

    I even screwed that up: AARgh… must fix:
    What is so freaking wrong in telling Michael about programs exist so he can improve his English and math skills

    Like

  239. Michael
    October 4, 2014 at 7:45 am

    sorry Chris,,I thought i already explained to you why,at this point in time that I am unable to do what you are suggesting

    Like

  240. Anthony Segulini
    October 4, 2014 at 11:12 am

    @Chris
    Nothing would be wrong with it if you were doing it in a sincere way, like you are now, but you and your friends weren’t, you were being very condescending and acting like jerks. And who are you to judge him anyway? You made a big deal about and Michael and his education and you didn’t need to. He is just fine and I have had no trouble following his comments.

    Your comments:
    “Lawrence, and another way is to making sure all are educated. It seems Michael missed out of lots of basic education. Sad, really.”

    “Here is an example of adult basic education programs. Michael, all you have to do is have an open mind, willing to learn and do the work. It would do so much to improve your life.”

    “We can tell by your lack of reading skills, odd use of commas and that you cannot understand simple math. It also explains your problems with basic science and risk assessment.”

    “You should only be judged only for not even trying. Learning basic language and math skills can only improve your life. Please at least try.

    “Sorry you broke your keyboard. I missed that because your writing is hard to read.”

    “Still, if you are retired, you have no reason to not take adult basic education classes. If you got a GED, why are your math skills so low?”

    “Then refuse all payments in the form of Social Security and Medicare. Taking that federal income tax income makes you a slave to the government! Your medical issues are not the tax payers’ problem, They are yours!”

    “You are the one who decided to drop out of school in seventh grade! Why should the rest of us pay for your very flawed decision?.”

    “Your lack of education is not our fault, it is all yours. Only you can correct that. You have been directed to programs to correct that, your failure to enhance you education is all from you.”

    “Plus why would anyone not even try to improve their reading and math skills?”

    “You might want to actually try reading some books on basic math and biology. Since you did not take a high school civics class, you should probably also check out books on American history and government. “

    “If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop changing the subject and do something about your issues with literacy. You only have yourself to blame.”

    Like

  241. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    Good tone trolling, Anthony. I’ll take it under consideration after weighing it with you being more willing to take the risk of real harm from getting influenza versus your fear of a vaccine.

    Some more reading:
    http://web.texaschildrens.org/multimedia/flipbook/vaccine-book/files/vc033%20tch%20text_webbook_singpg_lr.pdf

    Also, it is Michael’s lack of education on basic American history and government that explains his rants against the US government but his willingness to accept social security payments. He has an option to move to another country if he does not like our government, or stop posting incoherent rants about how evil it is (as he cashes checks from the federal treasury).

    By the way, I said the same thing to my brother when he ranted about the “illegal IRS” and income taxes. I reminded him that as a US Army officer that what was funding his paycheck. He then saw the irony of trying to be a libertarian while in the military.

    Like

  242. Michael
    October 4, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    I took it the same way you did Anthony,it’s all good,these type of people will never understand,I am surprised they haven’t drowned when it rains yet with their noses so far in the air,

    Like

  243. Lawrence
    October 4, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    @Chris – and more good news:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4183946/

    The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article [1] as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings. We apologise to all affected parties for the inconvenience caused.

    Like

  244. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 5:13 pm

    Cry me a river, Michael. You have the time and opportunity to improve your reading, writing and math skills. But all you do is moan and grown, and say things like “,I am sick of this government and its goons trying to push their agendas on a free republic,”

    Well, if you sick of this government, then stop cashing the checks they send you and leave. I’m sure there are other countries more to your liking.

    Like

  245. Michael
    October 4, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    Chris,,you are the one crying over my so called illiteracy,to be quite honest,there is not a person alive that has not had a problem in one way or another with the government,so until you can prove to me that vaccines do not harm people i have nothing more to say to you,because I’m never said that vaccines are bad,,I said there bad for certain people,I don’t what kind of number ratio you want to put out there because it is not about how many vaccines that have been administered,it is about this relevant factor,there are people that has never got a vax,and lived a healthy life,just like there are people that have been vaxed and have proven in a court of law that it was the vaccine that caused their harm, even death,you can’t prove otherwise

    Like

  246. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 10:54 pm

    “so called illiteracy”

    Your issues with reading and writing are quite evident in this page.

    “not a person alive that has not had a problem in one way or another with the government”

    So what? You are a citizen, there is a constitution, and if you knew out your local and federal government worked, you would know how to influence policy. But you don’t. You complain about it, but get direct benefits. If you don’t like it, then you can either leave or work to change it. And for the latter, you will not be taken seriously until you take advantage of the library and adult education programs that are supported by your local taxes.

    “I’m never said that vaccines are bad,,I said there bad for certain people,”

    Then don’t post links to articles that you do not understand. Also if you claim they are bad for “certain people” provide that verifiable scientific evidence. The website you posted was wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong.

    “I don’t what kind of number ratio you want to put out there because it is not about how many vaccines that have been administered”

    That is because you have issues with both reading comprehension and basic math, because this was explained to you above in great detail.

    “,there are people that has never got a vax,and lived a healthy life,”

    Again, this shows your lack of basic education in both reading and math. In modern times it is often because they are surrounded by vaccinated people who provide a shield against infectious disease. In older times, it was just a luck of the draw that they were on the ones who suffered, My great-grandmother had five children, three got to grow up (and still only had two children, one who may have been adopted… infertility is not considered part of a “healthy life”). Do you want families to go back to the time when it was common to bury at least one of your children?

    “have proven in a court of law that it was the vaccine that caused their harm, even death,you can’t prove otherwise”

    And again, the legal decisions do not decide the science. The NVICP statistics were explained to you in painful detail and yet you still do not seem to understand them. Between 2006 and 2012 there were over eight hundred million influenza vaccines given, and yet less than seven hundred cases were awarded, and most of them were under the term “Settlement.”

    Here is what is says about “settlement” on the NVICP statistics page (get someone in your church to explain it to you):

    Settlement: The petition is resolved via a negotiated settlement between the parties. This settlement is not an admission by the United States or the Secretary of Health and Human Services that the vaccine caused the petitioner’s alleged injuries, and, in settled cases, the Court does not determine that the vaccine caused the injury. A settlement therefore cannot be characterized as a decision by HHS or by the Court that the vaccine caused an injury. Claims may be resolved by settlement for many reasons, including consideration of prior court decisions; a recognition by both parties that there is a risk of loss in proceeding to a decision by the Court making the certainty of settlement more desirable; a desire by both parties to minimize the time and expense associated with litigating a case to conclusion; and a desire by both parties to resolve a case quickly and efficiently.

    In other words, it was not proven. And still there is a big difference in the number of zeros between a hundred million and a hundred. Try learning how to do basic fractions.

    Like

  247. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 11:01 pm

    “if you knew out your local and federal government worked”

    should be:

    “if you knew out how your local and federal government worked”

    It is quite clear you have never taken a basic American civics or government class. Because you really don’t have a clue.

    Have you ever considered finding your state’s department of vocational rehabilitation? These are programs set up to retrain workers who have been injured at work. Sometimes it includes training in field that do not require physical labor.

    Like

  248. Michael
    October 4, 2014 at 11:10 pm

    Chris,,you still have not proven to me that vaccines no don’t harm people,one death is to many,,a virus caused death is a natural death a vaccinated death is manslaughter

    Like

  249. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 11:39 pm

    So what? I never claimed vaccines do not cause harm. You just don’t understand that even a “natural death” from a virus is terrible.

    You really need to learn how to read and do math better. I am sure my great-grandmother would have strong words for you about your lack of empathy towards the deaths of both of her sons. Just because they had a “natural” death due to some pathogen.

    Like

  250. Chris
    October 4, 2014 at 11:42 pm

    I should amend that: you seem to think that a hundred kids dying from influenza each year is okay dokay, but the the seventy three over twenty years that are not proven from the vaccine is horrible. Learn some basic fractions, and grow a heart.

    Like

  251. Michael
    October 4, 2014 at 11:55 pm

    I understand perfectly,one is no better than the other,,one is natural and the other is induced by man and you still have not proved that vaccines don’t kill,,it doesn’t much matter though,bottom line is,,YOU don’t have a right to dictate what someone else does with their body.as far as empathy goes,,I will show the same as I receive,which is none

    Like

  252. novalox
    October 5, 2014 at 12:34 am

    @michael

    Considering the amount of ignorance that you spew, the lies that you post here, as well as the lack of evidence that you being to the table (since you brought up the assertions, it is up to you to provide the evidence, which you have continually failed to do), you deserve all of the scorn that you receive here.

    So again, post you evidence, since your postings show that you fail to have a grade-school understanding of science and math.

    Like

  253. Michael
    October 5, 2014 at 12:57 am

    I don’t need to do anything,prove to me that vaccines don’t harm certain people and that a person doesn’t have the right to not get vaxed and I’ll be on my way

    Like

  254. Gray Falcon
    October 5, 2014 at 7:16 am

    Michael: We never claimed either of those things. Tell me, does “Do not bear false witness” not apply to you?

    Like

  255. Chris
    October 5, 2014 at 9:46 am

    Michael, having to tell you the same thing over and over and over again is tiresome. Please learn to read!

    Like

  256. Michael
    October 5, 2014 at 11:33 am

    I suggest you do the same,others and myself have shown what we believe to be true,,If y’all don’t want to except it is not on me,,that is all on you,any way you want to twist it,any way you want to try to belittle someone is on you,Vaccines harm and/or kill,That is truth,it is called collateral damage,something you people have no empathy for,Therefor,,if someone chooses to not vaccinate it is none of your business and is their right,Remember,,Y’all ARE vaccinated correct?No worries,until the next thread that interest me,,have a good one

    Like

  257. Chris
    October 5, 2014 at 11:48 am

    “Vaccines harm and/or kill,That is truth”

    Yes they do. But those injuries are a very small number, while the injuries and deaths from influenza are much higher. Out of over 800 million influenza vaccine doses there were less than 700 compensated claims, and most of them were only an agreement without any real data.

    While you are gone, try going to the library and ask about adult basic education courses.

    Like

  258. jgc56
    October 5, 2014 at 10:21 pm

    ‘I suggest you do the same,others and myself have shown what we believe to be true”

    Michael, I’ll remind you again that no one is suggesting that you don’t believe your statements are true. What we’re disputing is whether you’re correct and what you believe to be true actually is true.

    Certainly to date neither yourself nor Anthony have offered any credible or compelling evidence that the risks associated with being vaccinated exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection.

    Like

  259. Lawrence
    October 6, 2014 at 5:10 am

    @JGC – not only does the risk not “exceed” but it isn’t even anywhere close. If there was potentially a 1 to 1 ratio (i.e. the risk of the vaccine was approximate to the risk of the disease) the anti-vax contingent might have a point – as the risk profiles would be similar, but the vaccine would be given much more frequently than people would get the disease.

    Where this analogy falls off the rails for them, however, is that the safety profile of vaccines is not only much better than the disease itself, it is many, many, many times safer than the disease – to the point where people would have a better chance at winning PowerBall than suffering a serious reaction to a vaccine.

    If a person isn’t smart enough to go with those odds, when the odds of catching something like the flu is much greater – as is the opportunity for secondary serious side-effects like pneumonia, than well, there are Darwin Awards for that type of thing.

    Like

  260. Liz
    October 6, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    The risk does exceed the benefit of vaccines. The risk of a severe reaction to vaccines is about one in five (including asthma, allergies, and mild brain damage), while the risk of a serious or fatal case of any of the VPDs is much lower, and all are treatable, whether with allopathic, naturopathic, homeopathic remedies or vitamin therapy. Many of us don’t want to take the risk of the vaccines.

    Like

  261. Chris
    October 6, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Liz: “The risk of a severe reaction to vaccines is about one in five…”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support that claim. You have three chances, failure to provide proper citations will prove to us that you are just making stuff up, or never attended high school.

    Like

  262. Lawrence
    October 6, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    @Liz – that just doesn’t make any sense at all, even at face value, given the hundreds of millions of people that have received flu vaccines…..try some common sense, it might help with that burn.

    Like

  263. jgc56
    October 6, 2014 at 9:00 pm

    And after you’re provided credible evidence that the one in five vaccinations results in a serious adverse event, Liz, please also provide credible evidence that homeopathic treatments perform better than placebos at treating ANY non-self-limiting injury or illness, and that vitamin therapy is an effective treatment for mild brain damage.

    Like

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