NOVA Film “Vaccines-Calling the Shots” Opens the Door for Dialogue
Sep 11, 2014

After viewing the PBS NOVA film “Vaccines – Calling the Shots”, I began wondering what the film’s impact would be.  I’ll admit that the film was very ambitious.  It addressed the science behind vaccines, why they work, how they work & even touched upon how people assess risk and decide whether to vaccinate or not.  All this in less than an hour.

Of course, no one should expect this film to be the one defining piece that will convince people to vaccinate.  Certainly it may reinforce the decision of those who already choose to vaccinate.  And it may give pause to those who would otherwise refrain from vaccinating.  But most importantly, this film is a valuable tool to help educate people about the science behind vaccines, inform the public about the importance of herd immunity and the dangers of not vaccinating, and open the door for civil dialogue about common vaccine safety concerns.

Looking back on the tweets I sent during the premiere, I realized that the film touched upon some of the most important immunization related issues I hear from parents day after day.   My goal now is to encourage as many people as possible to see this film (available online) and to use it as a way to encourage further conversation.

Of course, the film began with the usual caveats:

In the US more than 90% of parents vaccinate & most follow the recommended schedule.

Vaccine history may repeat itself. @PaulOffit explains “If you start to decrease vaccination rates you start to see the diseases reemerge.”

NOVAMeasles

 

In order to appreciate the value of vaccines, the film began by addressing the recent resurgence of diseases like pertussis (whooping cough) and measles.  It explained the infectious nature of these diseases, illustrated how epidemics are tracked and spread, and allowed viewers to see a tearful mother watching her infant child laying in a hospital bed and battling violent coughing fits brought on by an incurable disease known as pertussis.

 

#VaccinesNOVA really highlights how highly contagious measles is. Two hours lingering in an elevator can result in infection. 2 HOURS!

WOW! It’s eye opening to realize that some doctors have never actually seen infectious diseases like measles! Both good & bad!

Herd immunity differs for different diseases. For measles a 95% vaccination rate is needed. Even a slight drop can be detrimental.

The sound of a baby battling whooping cough & struggling to breathe is a sound that no parent should ever have to hear.

There is no cure for pertussis.  Parents watch their babies, too young to be vaccinated, struggle with violent cough. 1 in 100 infants will die.

[For more specific diseases information, check out Every Child By Two’s new interactive Vaccine Preventable Diseases eBook.]

After covering the diseases themselves, the film moved on to address various vaccine safety concerns.  Several vaccine hesitant parents are heard expressing their reservations about vaccines and the vaccine schedule. This is followed by compelling graphics, expert scientific commentary and valid examples of investigations into vaccine safety.

NOVAParentsRisksBy featuring the story of a child who suffered with seizures post vaccination, the filmmakers highlight the small but real risk of adverse events, as well as an example of how correlation often fails to prove causation. Then the film went on to talk about David Salamone, who contracted polio after receiving the oral polio vaccine.  We learn that David’s father John became the driving force that led to critical and life-saving changes in the polio vaccine recommendations.  Though his child was injured by a vaccine, John Salamone speaks about the value of our national immunization program and emphasizes how important it is that it is based on a proper benefit-risk equation.

I found it wonderfully refreshing that #VaccinesNOVA addressed vaccine safety issues head on. BRAVO!

I feel for those parents who are so confused by vaccine safety that they seem paralyzed & unable to make a decision.

Most kids have no side effects from vaccines. Occasional swelling, fever or seizure. And yes, sometimes extremely rare cases of injury.

So glad #VaccinesNOVA film brings up the concern about seizures in their discussion of vaccine safety. Probably a big concern for many.

Love the animated graphics that explain how vaccines and immunity work. Even my kids get it!

Combination vaccines are safe and reduce the number of shots our children need. I call that a WIN/WIN. ow.ly/BmoKT

David’s father is a shining example of how people can advocate for vaccine safety & work to preserve public health.

No film on vaccines would be complete without addressing the question of autism. Fortunately in this film they include an interview with Alison Singer, founder and President of the Autism Science Foundation.  Not only is she passionate and articulate about autism, she is very clear about where the science stands.

#VaccinesNOVA explains the vaccine/autism concern. So glad they interviewed @AutismScienceFd founder @alisonsinger who says ENOUGH! We don’t need more studies.

RT @alisonsinger: #vaccinesNOVA This is a question that science can answer and it has! Vaccines don’t cause autism!

There’s never been a study to prove vaccines cause autism, yet there are numerous studies that show they DON’T. ow.ly/Bmsl6

One important inclusion in this film is the conversation surrounding HPV.  While parents are often frightened by unfounded suggestions of vaccine dangers, Dr. Amy Middleman had some extremely hard-hitting comments on the safety and efficacy of the vaccine and the undeniable dangers of this cancer-causing virus.

“People always say they wish they could prevent cancer. The HPV vaccine prevents cancer. Who wouldn’t want that for their child.”

In regards to HPV “how they are getting exposed is irrelevant to preventing the disease.” We are preventing cancer!

Of course, a one hour documentary on PBS NOVA could never expect to be enough to change a person’s opinions of vaccines.  But hopefully it will be one of many educational tools that can serve as a tipping point among the vaccine hesitant and an affirmation for the 90% of the population that is currently vaccinating.

For those who missed the broadcast, it is available for viewing on PBS NOVA’s website. Following your viewing of this program we encourage anyone with questions or concerns about vaccines to get them addressed.  Talk to your doctor, refer to reputable resources that we have listed on the Vaccinate Your Baby website, post them in the comment section below, send them to us on our Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page, or email them to shotofprevention@gmail.com.  When necessary, we will refer questions to our scientific advisory board and ensure your concerns are addressed.

As for what this film can accomplished, I can honestly say that I’ve already been fielding questions from friends and family who I had encouraged to tune in.  My children, who watched alongside me, were relieved to understand why they’ve been vaccinated.  My nine year old has repeatedly questioned whether I was certain she had all her vaccines.  “I don’t want to get those awful diseases,” she explained.  The good news is that I suspect she’s not going to be complaining about her flu shot this season or even that Tdap booster that’s due in a few years.  Understanding can make all the difference in the world.


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310 responses to “NOVA Film “Vaccines-Calling the Shots” Opens the Door for Dialogue”

  1. steve479 says:

    You should be extremely worried about the HPV vaccine. There are many deaths and serious auto-immune adverse reactions reported around the world (USA, Canada, Japan, Spain, France, Denmark, Colombia, Brazil, etc).
    Our daughter suffered an immediate adverse reaction following the 3rd jab which soon became very serious. She was crippled with pain and sleeping 20-22 hours every day. It started with flu-like symptoms, with pains and feeling cold and very tired. Only afterwards did we realise it also happened with the earlier 2 jabs but we were told that it is safe and didn’t recognise the side-effects. She has now missed 3 years of school and life and it has been a huge burden on the family.
    In the UK the number of serious adverse reactions is 92 per 100,000 (approximately 100 times more than other common vaccines, including 4 deaths. Over 18,000 adverse reactions reported). Whereas the deaths due to cervical cancer have come down from 8 per 100,000 to 2 per 100,000 over the last 40 years and at this rate should disappear within 10 years – with no help from the vaccine. The vaccine efficacy is only 97% and known to be effective for several years but cervical cancer typically takes 15 years to develop.
    Why are we killing and maiming our children at huge cost when there is no need to do so?
    Make an INFORMED choice.

  2. Lawrence says:

    @steve – actually, the HPV vaccine (the different varieties thereof) have been proven to be extremely safe & effective….despite what you claim (and I’m not seeing any citations to justify the numbers you have articulated).

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/hpv_faqs.html

  3. Tim says:

    Lawrence,
    So what you’re saying is that the vaccine manufacturers and those controlled by them say it’s safe. And you’re saying that you don’t have a family member who was damaged by the HPV or other vaccine. Just to be clear.

  4. Chris says:

    “There are many deaths and serious auto-immune adverse reactions reported around the world (USA, Canada, Japan, Spain, France, Denmark, Colombia, Brazil, etc).”

    Citation needed. No unverified VAERS reports please.

    Tim, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that show any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

    For example there are over 25000 HPV associated cancers detected each year. Show that the vaccine causes that much harm annually just in the USA. Not sore arms or a mild fainting spell, but serious harm that has been verified to be caused by the vaccine someone who is medically qualified.

  5. Celtic Mom says:

    Thank you for telling your story Steve. I won’t let my daughters get this vaccine. Here is an excellent article on the matter http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/the-evidence-on-gardasil-modern-miracle-or-dangerous-scam/

  6. Sugar99 says:

    Have you seen this one Celtic Mom?
    Lead Vaccine Developer Comes Clean – Gardasil and Cervarix

    http://www.pop.org/content/merck-researcher-admits-gardasil-guards-against-almost-nothing-985

  7. Chris says:

    I am sorry, but none of those are PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers. And the “pop” article does not exist. Try again.

  8. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Hello Chris, PubMed studies or not, surely there is more than enough evidence to be very, very concerned.

  9. Chris says:

    Then provide that verifiable evidence. Make sure it is from a qualified reputable researcher (and Dr. Diane Harper does not count). Since there are over 25000 human ppapillomavirus caused cancers diagnosed each year in the USA, you need to show the vaccine causes as much harm.

  10. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I just did provide the evidence, as I said before, PubMed studies or not, there is more than enough evidence to be very, very concerned. Wonder why the CDC removed the info from the last link I provided.

    Thanks Celtic Mom for your link!

    Sugar, do you have another link? Your isn’t working.

  11. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Just found this one too, with lots of links http://greatmothersquestioningvaccines.com/hpv–gardasil.html

  12. Nancy St. Martin says:

    And your question, “Since there are over 25000 human ppapillomavirus caused cancers diagnosed each year in the USA, you need to show the vaccine causes as much harm.”

    This logic is very flawed, you are asking to compare everybody in the US to injuries that can only happen to people who get the vaccine.

  13. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – thousands of women die every year from Cervical Cancers directly related to HPV…all you have are stories that aren’t backed up by actual evidence.

    I’m a bit surprised that you are so uncaring about a virus that kills regularly…..

  14. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – if you can correctly state the status of Dr. Harper during the development of Gardisil (what was her position), then perhaps I’ll listen to what you have to say.

    So think about that carefully, before citing any more “articles.”

  15. Nancy St. Martin says:

    And hundreds or thousands of women/girls/boys are injured by this vaccine every year. I can certainly supply more “articles” if you would like.

    There is more than enough evidence to be very, very concerned.

  16. Nancy St. Martin says:

    It’s really too bad that you don’t consider an injured girl or even death, “evidence”.

  17. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Chris, I apologize, I just noticed that my comment with many links is being held in “moderation”? I thought you had seen them all when you said my “pop” link didn’t work, but now I realize you weren’t talking to me.

  18. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Tried placing more links, but comment is being held in moderation. How convenient.

  19. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – #1 you are off-topic to this particular post.

    #2 – your “articles” aren’t science.

    #3 – what was Dr. Harper’s role in the development of Gardisil?

  20. DJREPEAT says:

    Yes Nancy, and another point, if the duration of efficacy lasts at least 15 years then vaccinating 11 year old girls will protect them until they are 26 and will prevent some pre-cancers, but will postpone most cancers. If the duration of efficacy is less than 15 years, then No Cancers are prevented, they are only postponed.

  21. Lawrence says:

    @OfftopicTrolls – just please stop lying…it is very unbecoming.

  22. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Hi Lawrence,

    1- your first post (2nd post from the top) is talking about this specific topic, so how do you consider this off topic?

    2- My articles (which I am not allowed to post) are evidence of injuries and death.

    3- Whatever your beef is with Dr. Harper, it has no relevance to young girls being injured by this vaccine.

  23. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Now you have to resort to name calling, very classy.

  24. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Hello DJ, thank you, can you send a link with that info?

  25. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Never mind DJ, I see you on the FB page and will send a private message.

  26. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – your “dialogue” is both misleading & the vast majority of your information is lies, followed by misinterpretations and misinterpretation of data…..

    Since you can’t answer the question – Dr. Harper was not the “Leading Developer” of Gardisil…and since you don’t know that, it means the rest of your information is not only suspect, but I believe you lack an even basic understanding of biologic and Science in general.

  27. Nancy St. Martin says:

    More insults, beautiful.

    Since you can’t have an intelligent conversation about any of this, and can only whirl insults and lie by stating I am lying, it means the rest of your information must be considered inaccurate and false.

  28. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – you are a funny, funny girl.

    Have you even read the information you provide in your links? When they can’t even get a person’s position correct, it doesn’t lend a lot of credibility to the rest of their information.

    Lucky for the rest of us, reality has a pro-science bias.

  29. Lawrence says:

    Back to the film – a lot of people don’t know or remember the consequences of these diseases (since we did such a good job almost eliminating them with vaccines)…..kids and babies did die and were seriously harmed by these diseases. We should be extremely thankful, that at the moment, they aren’t the killers they once were…

    A very good summary of the magnitude of the success of vaccines is found here:

    https://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

  30. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You’re pretty sad Lawrence. Hope things get better for you. Enjoy your weekend.

  31. Lawrence says:

    And yet more Science on the Safety of Vaccines:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

  32. Chris says:

    Nancy, you have repeated a link that we already determined was not a proper citation.

    Now, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show the HPV vaccine causes more injury than the cancers caused by the disease.

  33. Chris says:

    And I repeat: Dr. Diane Harper is actually quite clueless.

  34. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy, let me put it to you this way: Imagine reading a book discussing the Civil War that consistently claims that Jefferson Davis was the Secretary of the State of the Union. How accurate a historical account do you believe it would be?

  35. @Lawrence I believe your citation above “Vaccine Safety, Examine the Evidence” is a good summary of the safety literature. There is no paper they cite that examines whether children are being injected with toxic quantities of aluminum. In fact I am aware of no paper that studies that issue, which doesn’t conclude that they are. I’m aware of lots of papers that say they are. For example, they are receiving 100’s of times as much aluminum in vaccines as they receive in breast milk. If you inject that quantity of aluminum into postnatal animals, scaled for weight of course, they develop brain damage.
    For each 1% increase in vaccine compliance, regressed across the 50 states, there is an additional 680 autism or SLI cases associated. For each extra 7 vaccines in a national series (the US currently has 26 in the first 7 months) there is associated an extra 1/1000 dead babies, regressed across the 34 nations with lowest infant mortality. etc.

    That paper also doesn’t cite any study that refutes the notion that too many vaccines cause problems, or too early vaccines cause autism. The Pediatricians claim the 2013 study of DeStefano et al does that, but that’s false. Leaving aside that De Stefano was basically accused of fraud and misconduct by his own co-author (Thompson), his recent paper explicitly studies the quantity of antigens received by patients. According to their own Figure 1, DTP has 3004 antigens while no other vaccines they study (except Typhoid, which is hardly in their data) has more than a handful. That means what they are doing is comparing patients who got DTP and other vaccines to patients who got DTaP and other vaccines and concluding neither got much more autism than the other. Big Whoop. How about comparing patients who got more aluminum, or patients who got more and earlier vaccines? No study on that.

    In addition to that study, I’ve looked at other Safety studies, also cited below Not one of them cites any paper to rebut any of the dozens of studies in the scientific literature I found and cite, that clearly argue vaccines are dangerous. Not one of them even cites any of these dozens of studies, to rebut them. They are just ignoring all the negative data and pretending it doesn’t exist, and publishing bait and switch safety analyses hoping to confuse you or themselves. Apparently they have succeeded.

    For links and citations for all of the above, in the main-stream refereed scientific literature, and more, see http://whyarethingsthisway.com/2014/03/08/example-1-pediatrician-belief-is-opposite-the-published-scientific-evidence-on-early-vaccine-safety/
    The first post is the most relevant, but if you go forward in the blog you’ll find other relevant ones.

  36. Typo above: 26 in the first 12 months.

  37. Gray Falcon says:

    natphilosopher: Aluminum is the third-most common element in the Earth’s crust. If it were a tenth as toxic as you claimed, we’d all be dead.

  38. Gray: The digestive system filters 99.75% of dietary aluminum into the poop, never allowing it into the blood. Almost all the rest that makes it to the blood, is immediately removed by the kidneys. The placenta filters more out, constructing the fetus in a clean room. The breast milk is very low in it too. Then the Vaccinists come in and bypass 5 layers of evolved filters to inject aluminum straight into the system of neo-nates, in a form (AlOH, bound up with antigens) that the kidney’s can’t readily remove.
    Why do you think they are doing that? Their *goal* is to inflame the immune system, to take it out of its normal operating range so that it reacts to dead viruses in babies too young to normally form antibodies to live ones.
    You think this is safe? Why? Is there a single citation in the scientific literature that has studied injected aluminum in neonates and not found that this is highly dangerous and harmful?

  39. Chris says:

    So what? You still have not shown on any blog that you have been trolling with your verbose cut and paste nonsense that any vaccine is more dangerous than the diseases.

    Though it was amusing when you were posting all about the evils of aluminum on articles about the MMR vaccine. A sure sign you do not have a clue.

  40. Chris, its a sure sign that NOVA and you don’t have a clue, because you both are pretending the problem is MMR in an effort to avoid looking at any of the real and demonstrated problems.

    As to showing that a vaccine is worse than the disease, that’s easy. The polio vaccine is known and admitted to have occasional side effects. Hundreds of millions of Americans have gotten those vaccines and I have no doubt that at least thousand of them have gotten side effects. No American, however, has gotten Polio in decades, except from vaccines, which caused the last numerous cases.

    You want another example? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423139
    They did a randomized placebo study of TIV flu vaccine. It showed no statistically significant benefit in preventing flu, but the recipients of the vaccine got four(4) times as many other respiratory illnesses as the recipients of the placebo.
    Another study showed recipients of this vaccine were *more* likely to medically attended H1N1 than non-recipients of the vaccine.

    And recipients of the H1N1 vaccine? Another study showed that it gave a lot of children narcolepsy by inducing an auto-immune attack on their brains.
    http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/216/216ra176.abstract

  41. Hey, I went to look at the last cite above, and apparently its recently been retracted.
    That means, we don’t know how H1N1 vaccine caused narcolepsy in a bunch of kids, we just know that a bunch of kids who got the vaccine came down with narcolepsy shortly thereafter.

    17. Y. Dauvilliers, J. Montplaisir, V. Cochen, A. Desautels, M. Einen, L. Lin, M. Kawashima, S. Bayard, C. Monaca, M. Tiberge, D. Filipini, A. Tripathy, B. H. Nguyen, S. Kotagal, E. Mignot, Post-H1N1 narcolepsy-cataplexy. Sleep 33, 1428–1430 (2010).

    21. M. Partinen, O. Saarenpää-Heikkilä, I. Ilveskoski, C. Hublin, M. Linna, P. Olsén, P. Nokelainen, R. Alén, T. Wallden, M. Espo, H. Rusanen, J. Olme, H. Sätilä, H. Arikka, P. Kaipainen, I. Julkunen, T. Kirjavainen, Increased incidence and clinical picture of childhood narcolepsy following the 2009 H1N1 pandemic vaccination campaign in Finland. PLOS One 7, e33723 (2012)

  42. Chris says:

    Yawn. As far as I can tell none of those influenza vaccines are approved for use in the USA. That is some serious cherry picking, especially since over a hundred children have died from influenza in the USA this flu season.

    Try again, but stick to one that is more often actually given to American children: the MMR. Just show us it causes more harm than measles, which a study show is even worse than influenza.

  43. Chris says:

    “It showed no statistically significant benefit in preventing flu, but the recipients of the vaccine got four(4) times as many other respiratory illnesses as the recipients of the placebo.”

    That is silly to think that an influenza vaccine should protect against things that are not influenza. Especially in just 115 subjects put into to small groups. That is really serious cherry picking.

    Now on to another vaccine, also show that the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis or diphtheria. Presently there in California there has been thousands of cases with kids ending up in intensive care plus a couple of deaths. And if this “vaccine bad” mindset continues we can see a repeat of what happened in former USSR states with diphtheria: Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease..

    But, hey! “Aluminum bad, so vaccines bad” is so much more compelling an argument than pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus are nasty bacterial diseases.

  44. c. says:

    I’m lovin’ this dialogue, it’s very informative.

  45. James Rolling says:

    Dr. Langmuir said in 1962 that measles caused the death of less than one in ten thousand cases of those over three years old: two in 10,000 one and two year olds, and four per 10,000 cases in those under one year old. Autism is now being diagnosed in one in 36 American children (U. of Minnesota 2013). I’d take measles over the MMR.

  46. Chris says:

    Mr. Rolling, please post that citation, we need to read it in context. Explain why Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002. is wrong. And one out of ten thousand when there are millions of children is still a big number. Some questions:

    1. What level of death do you find acceptable before you care to prevent a disease? Obviously over four hundred children per year is not enough. So what is it? A thousand, ten thousand or even higher?

    2. To keep those children alive about one in ten required expensive hospital care (see The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review). Why would it be cheaper than to provide intensive hospital care to 10% of the all children than preventing measles

    3. What real verifiable evidence do you have that MMR causes autism? Since the MMR vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1971, and then was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination program there should be real evidence dated before 1990. Where is that?

    4. Do you think a child who becomes deaf, blind, paralyzed or mentally incapacitated is better than an autistic child?

    5. Do you really think a dead child is better than an autistic child?.

  47. Lawrence says:

    @james – that would only be relevant if the MMR was related to autism, but since it isn’t, your’s is a false choice.

  48. UPI Reporter Dan Olmsted went looking for the autistic Amish. In a community where he should have found 50 profound autistics, he found 3. The first was an adopted Chinese girl who’d had vaccinations rushed before she was shipped from China and more here on the way to the adoptive parents. The second had been normal until developing classic autism symptoms within hours of being vaccinated. The third there was no information about.
    http://whyarethingsthisway.com/2014/09/14/vaccines-and-autism/

  49. Chris says:

    Some reading for Mr. Rolling: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.full.pdf

    It puts Langmuir’s quote in context. Here are some pertinent quotes:

    Langmuir showed that 90% of Americans were infected with the measles virus by age 15 years [1]. This equated to roughly 1 birth cohort (4 million people) infected with measles each year.

    Nevertheless, in the late 1950s, serious complications due to measles remained frequent and costly. As a result of measles virus infections, an average of 150,000 patients had respiratory complications and 4000 patients had encephalitis each year; the latter was associated with a high risk of neurological sequelae and death. These complications and others resulted in an estimated 48,000 persons with measles being hospitalized every year.

  50. Chris says:

    NP: “UPI Reporter Dan Olmsted went looking for the autistic Amish.”

    What part of “PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers” do you not understand?

    Olmsted is definitely not reputable, and not qualified in anything. And his incompetence by not even knowing about the Clinic for Special Children is why he is no longer a UPI reporter.

    So now your argument now is “tabloid journalist found stuff, but ignored reality, so vaccines are bad”? That is worse than “aluminum bad, so vaccines are bad.”

  51. I saw an interview with a somewhat anti-vaccination pediatrician in Los Angeles. He’s had a very popular practice there for 30 years. He’s vaccinated kids of parents who requested it, but basically advised his practice not to bother, so he has a low vaccination rate. He said he’s never seen a case of measles in his practice.

    I saw in the NY Times the claim that 99.5% of polio cases are asymptomatic. I’m not sure if they’re mistaken. They didn’t cite a source, and most authorities guess the chance of being asymptomatic is 95%. I’ve never seen a scientific study on the issue. But even if 5% develop some symptoms, authorities seem to agree almost all of those make a complete recovery. Maybe what the NY Times meant was your chances of having any permanent paralysis if you caught polio might be 1/200. That’s if you were to get polio, which no American has in decades, although American children continue to get stuck with multiple polio vaccines, potentially capable of causing known and unknown side effects, and potentially contaminated with mycoplasmas and other things. (Polio vaccine was also reportedly in the past contaminated with living viruses including SV-40 and maybe HIV.)

    On the other hand, if you are an American child today who gets vaccinated like the vast majority, your chances of becoming autistic are 1/68 and rising rapidly according to the CDC.

  52. Gray Falcon says:

    natphilospher: If someone murdered your children, it would be less than one in a million children in the US killed. Would you consider that an acceptable loss?

  53. Gray, was that a death threat?

  54. Gray Falcon says:

    natphilosopher: You have no problems talking so casually about the deaths of children by disease. Why do you think you have a right to complain when I talk about the death of children?

  55. You talked about murdering my children specifically. It sounded like a death threat. Was it a death threat?

  56. Gray Falcon says:

    No, and there was nothing to suggest that it was. Now, answer my question: Would you consider the death of one child in a million acceptable if it were yours?

  57. What you mean is, would I accept the death of my child as the cost of continuing in my posting, if by continuing I could rid the world of autism?

  58. Gray Falcon says:

    What I mean is, would you consider it not worth the effort of bringing your children’s killer to justice? After, it’s just a couple of children, why go through the effort? That seems to be your attitude about vaccines.

    And no, autism is not an issue. Are you suggesting autistic people are better off dead? Do you wish to implement Action T4?

  59. Gray Falcon says:

    And FYI, you still haven’t provided any evidence vaccines cause autism. As Chris stated, the MMR vaccine was created in 1971, and widely distributed in 1978. Why didn’t the “autism epidemic” start then? If you fail to answer, then I will consider that a concession of defeat.

  60. Lawrence says:

    @Nat – so, you hold up the “Amish” as some paragons of health? You do realize, that along with having a rate of autism close to the national average, they also have a large number of genetic conditions – some of whom are so rare in the US population at large, that they didn’t have a name until they were investigated in the Amish community?

    Trust me, Autism is usually the last thing the Amish are worried about –

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3077314/
    http://www.nature.com/news/rare-diseases-genomics-plain-and-simple-1.10125
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/genetic-disorders-hit-amish-hard/

    Also, that particular “not-so-vax friendly” doctor you talk about, may also be the same one that encourages his patients to lie about their vaccination status to their friends & “hide in the herd”

    Again, not exactly the type of person I would accept medical information from.

  61. Lawrence says:

    @Nat – given that autism has been around a lot longer than vaccinations, the only thing you are doing is increasing the spread of vaccine preventable diseases & causing more children to suffer and potentially die.

    You don’t have the moral high ground here.

  62. Chris says:

    NP: “On the other hand, if you are an American child today who gets vaccinated like the vast majority, your chances of becoming autistic are 1/68 and rising rapidly according to the CDC.”

    No. It doesn’t work that way. Vaccination is very common, and autism has been around since before vaccines. The definition of autism has changed over the past twenty years, and the vast majority of those who have been diagnosed in that time period are very high functioning. Many more high functioning than my son who had seizures from a disease before its vaccine was available.

    Again, I repeat: provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases.

  63. James Rolling says:

    Chris,
    Yes, I think a child who is blind, deaf, or paralyzed is better off than one who has autism, because they can understand the world and be taught to live in it, while very often the child with autism can never understand it or learn to communicate or interact appropriately with others. A mentally incapacitated child would be in the same category as an autistic one. The MMR can cause death as well as disability. I would still prefer to take our chances with measles, which even Calling the Shots recognized was usually a mild disease.

  64. James Rolling says:

    Lawrence,
    Many courts have ruled that it had been proven that the MMR, or other vaccines, had caused autism in children. Dr. Thompson admitted that his 20004 study had unequivocally found that the MMR caused autism in some children, and he felt guilty about what they had done with the results (changed them and hid them). He told Dr. Wakefield he felt bad about having particpated in unfairly messing up his career. Dr. Thompson said that mercury-containing vaccines given to pregnant women could cause tics and autism. It is your opinion that vaccines never cause autism, but many scientists, courts, and families have seen that they can. Again, I’d rather take our chances with measles, mumps, and rubella (etc.)

  65. Gray Falcon says:

    James- I am autistic. I understand the world and know how to live in it. So do several other autistic adults I know. Please apologize at once for your crude stereotyping.

  66. Chris says:

    “Yes, I think a child who is blind, deaf, or paralyzed is better off than one who has autism, because they can understand the world and be taught to live in it, while very often the child with autism can never understand it or learn to communicate or interact appropriately with others.”

    Mr. Rolling, you are a terrible person. Please stay away from children, for their safety.

    “The MMR can cause death as well as disability.”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the MMR causes as just a fraction of the deaths that measles, at least four per year in the USA. You seem to think four hundred kids dying from measles is okay dokay, so you must think that 1% of that is just fine.

    “Dr. Thompson admitted that his 20004 study had unequivocally found that the MMR caused autism in some children”

    Not really. Work on your reading comprehension. The sample size was much too small to account for what Hooking claimed to have found:

    In this table, for example, he tells us that he had to modify the analysis to 31 months instead of 36 because he had less than 5 children in that group. It’s the same goddamned mistake that Andrew Jeremy Wakefield wanted to pass off as legitimate science. You cannot, and must not use small numbers to make big assertions..

  67. Chris says:

    Gray Falcon, it seems that Mr. Rolling is a terrible person who has decided that all disabilities are okay dokay, but autism makes a person inhuman.

    Do I have that right, Mr. Rolling?

    Are you cool with kids who became autistic due to Congenital Rubella Syndrome? Since the actual disease caused autism, they must get a pass of humanity from you.

  68. Lawrence says:

    @JR – what a nasty person you are….a good friend of the family has an autistic child, who is happy, healthy and extremely interactive with his surroundings. In fact, you’d hardly even notice he was different, except for some particular behavioral traits that he has – but is currently succeeding very well through ABA-approved therapies.

    And even if you look at Thompson’s statement & take it at face value – it doesn’t say what you think it says…(i.e. “risk” not cause).

    How do anti-vax individuals keep getting more and more uneducated?

  69. Lawrence says:

    @JR – and “many courts?” Really?

    #1 – Courts don’t decide Scientific Fact

    #2 – there was that one case in Italy, but it was appeal & universally condemned around the world as a travesty, given the lack of any real evidence.

    You don’t really know what you are talking about, do you?

  70. Gray Falcon says:

    It seems the anti-vaccine groups are suffering from the fact that they really are just a giant echo chamber. My guess is, they assume any and all improvements their children make are the results of whatever quack therapy they use, and therefore, any and all other autistic people must never develop, ever.

  71. Gray Falcon says:

    Part of the issue is how vague the definition of Autism Spectrum Disorders has become. I was watching “Sailor Moon”, and I was noting how the lead character (emotional, literal-minded, fails to pick up social cues, nearly everything she owns has a rabbit motif) could be diagnosed as ASD in America. She’s actually written as a stereotypical Japanese schoolgirl.

  72. James Rolling says:

    Falcon,
    Great. Congratulations. My autistic child cannot communicate, is not interested in anything, does not appear to care about any other person. No affection, no interest, no concern. About anything except his food and his belongings. No questions. No Good morning! Never said even I’m hungry, I’m thirsty, I’m tired. No I’m sorry your mother died. No I’m sorry you’ve got the flu, can I do anything? No curiosity, no questions about anything. No Look at that! Wow! Now, tell me, is the fact that you have autism and you’re fine connected to a certain lack of concern for the millions who have more severe autism and are NOT fine and will NEVER be fine?

  73. James Rolling says:

    You people will have to show some concern for the millions of children disabled by vaccine autism before you have any right to say that I am a terrible person. Chris asked if I’d rather have a child who had become blind, deaf, etc. from measles, or one who had autism. I answered. Are you saying that children who are blind, deaf, etc., are clearly so much worse than autistic ones are to be discrimintated against and shunned for their lack of humanity, since you are saying that even autism is preferable to their disabilities? You asked, and I answered. I’d rather have a child who was blind or deaf. I’ve never had one, but I do have an autistic teenager.

  74. Nancy St. Martin says:

    James, these guys are hypocrites, they are the disgusting ugly people they claim you to be. They don’t care about vaccine injured children and people and deny any correlation between vaccines and autism. And yes, vaccines, do play a part in autism. They are in complete denial and will defend vaccines to the end. I think they are either delusional or get paid for their views, I can’t think of any other reason to unquestionably defend vaccines like they do when there is so much evidence proving how unsafe they are.

  75. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Nat, thanks for the good info, I like your blog.

  76. James Rolling says:

    Chris,
    Did I say other disabilities were okey dokey? I did not. Any disability makes life harder for the person who has it and for their families. You asked if I’d rather have a child with a disability like blindness or deafness or one with autism. All are disabilities. None is okey dokey. But I”d rather have one who was blind or deaf, but one who could make connections with others than one with autism. The word autism comes from the word for self. If they can make connections, they’re closer to being normal. But average autistic people are trapped in their self, brain-damaged by vaccine reactions, and can’t make connections outside themselves or communicate. And that’s just awful.

  77. jgc56 says:

    Very well, a couple of direct questions

    Nancy,your evidence that “hundreds or thousands of women/girls/boys are injured by [HPV] vaccine every year” would be…what. exactly? Be speciifc: indicate what injuries they experience and the how it has been factually estabished the injuries were caused by the vaccine.

    natphilosopher: Your evidence that aluminum salts at exposure levels achievable by routine vaccination are toxic or otherwise harmful would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    James, several questions:

    Which courts have found as proven that the MMR vaccines caused autism in children,

    Why are you confusing judicial opinions with evidence demonstrating the existence of a causal association between vaccines and autism?

    Please provide a direct quote with attribution where Dr. Thompson stated explicitly that the “20004 (sic) study had unequivocally found that the MMR caused autism in some children”.

    How have you factually established that your child’s autism was caused by vaccines they received? Hopefully it’s on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy.

  78. Gray Falcon says:

    James: So in other words, you made no effort whatsoever to understand your child, and refuse to accept him in any way. Did it ever occur to you that not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way?

  79. Gray Falcon says:

    Oh, and James, you haven’t provided any proof that there are “millions” of autistic people like that. You haven’t even proven your child is over the age of three. Autism is developmental disability, not stasis.

  80. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – it is certainly people like JR that give anti-vaxers an even worse name (and are apologists for those that treat people with autism as less than human).

  81. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray: Thanks for making my point. You have absolutely no understanding of what is happening. You have no idea what autism is.

  82. James says:

    Gray Falcon,

    I didn’t say that either. We have worked for many years doing everything possible to understand our son and help him. But what I said was all true, and people need to know how hard and hopeless it is to have an autistic child. We love him. But we don’t get anything back. That’s just the way it is. What’s going to happen to him when we’re gone. He can’t communicate, can’t connect. Helpless. Great. I saw something several months ago about an autistic man who was 35 who learned to write his name for the first time. You’re right, it’s not always stasis. Many autistic people, if there’s anyone that interested in helping them, may learn to read a first-grade book by the time they’re fifty. Great future ahead of them, let me tell you. Once they age out of the public school system, though, I’ll bet you there’s not going to be anyone interested in teaching them to read. I’ve actually spent time trying to do the calculation. If my sixteen-year old son is now up to a kindergarten cognitive level, will he progress to a fourth grade level by the time he’s 32, or only to a second grade level? I read about an autistic woman who died in her fifties, who was at the level of a six year old. Great. My neighbor has a younger autistic child, who said her teacher in an autism class was injured in a “situation” in her autism class last week. I don’t know the details, apparently a very aggressive student, did something that caused her to sprain both ankles and both knees, she hasn’t been able to go in to work since last week.

    Gray Falcon, you said your friend’s child was almost normal, and you could hardly tell he was autistic. So you’re saying that it’s good to be normal, you know what normal is, and you think it’s a good thing to be hardly different from normal. So you’re saying it’s not a good thing to be autistic, because most autistic people are a long way from being like your friend’s child. ABA helps some children, but it doesn’t help most autistic children much,. A lot it doesn’t help at all. And if you’re over seven, they won’t do it. Doesn’t matter how bad off you are, you’re over seven, tough luck, nothing out there for you. Are you dismissing those who have more severe autism, or autism that just doesn’t improve with ABA?

    And why would you say I haven’t proved my child is over three? You haven’t proved anything of what you have said. What difference would it make whether or not my son is any age? He’s sixteen. He’s in bad shape. Do you care? I don’t know the exact numbers. No one does. I’ve read that half of autistic people never learn to speak at all, and I’ve read that a quarter never do. It looks like 2% of American kids now have autism, but it’s a lot more common in the younger ones, with numbers going up every year.

  83. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: I am autistic, and I work with several autistic people across the spectrum. If there is anyone who has an idea of what autism is, it’s me.

  84. Gray Falcon says:

    James: Even if your child is profoundly autistic, that gives you no right to claim all, or even most, autistic people are. It would be easy to find ten black criminals, but it would not justify arresting all black people.

    And I was not the one who said my friend’s child was almost normal. If you can’t keep track of information that you can simply scroll up to find, then I can’t trust you to be informed about autism.

    “It looks like 2% of American kids now have autism, but it’s a lot more common in the younger ones, with numbers going up every year.” Do you have evidence of this.

  85. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, I don’t believe you. If you had autism you would be much more empathetic and compassionate, and you would understand what is happening with these children with autism. You would never say… “Did it ever occur to you that not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way?” In fact, I believe you owe James an apology for your cruel condescending words.

  86. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Evidence for the autism rates? Ask you buddies at the CDC and see what they say.

  87. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You do trust the CDC don’t you Gray Falcon?

  88. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: I am being compassionate I’m protecting those with autism from the likes of you, aren’t I?

  89. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Please, I am helping these children and you deny their existence. Don’t know how you figure you are helping them??

  90. Gray Falcon says:

    “Did it ever occur to you that not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way?” That’s not hateful, I was being empathetic to James’ son. Did it ever occur to you that caring about autistic people is not the same as caring for their parents?

    Now, tell me where the CPC says autism rates are going up, and that it isn’t because the definition of autism has been broadened to the point of becoming meaningless. A child not showing eye contact in America would be diagnosed as autistic. A child not showing eye contact in Japan would be called respectful.

  91. Gray Falcon says:

    “Please, I am helping these children and you deny their existence. Don’t know how you figure you are helping them??” I don’t deny their existence. I just don’t lie about them.

    Here’s a nice paragraph from the article you cited:
    “Over the last decade, the most notable change in characteristics of children identified with ASD through the ADDM Network is the growing number who have average or above average intellectual ability. This proportion has increased consistently over time from 32% in 2002, to 38% in 2006, to 46% in 2010, or almost half of children identified with ASD. Concurrently, the proportion of children with ASD and co-occurring intellectual disability has steadily decreased from 47% in 2002, to 41% in 2006, to 31% in 2010. This shift in distribution of intellectual ability among children identified with ASD during 2002–2010 indicates that a large proportion of the observed ASD prevalence increase can be attributed to children with average or above average intellectual ability (IQ >85). Several studies have shown similar patterns of increases in ASD prevalence among persons without intellectual disability (27), although which factors are driving this change is unclear.”

    In other words, the number of people diagnosed as autistic who have average or above average intelligence is about the only value really going up.

  92. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Yes, it was hateful, as your were belittling what he said and in a condescending manner.

    Here’s the other line from the article…”About 1 in 68 children has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC’s Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network.”
    And this, “The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that 1 in 68 children (or 14.7 per 1,000 eight-year-olds) in multiple communities in the United States has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This new estimate is roughly 30 percent higher than previous estimates reported in 2012 of 1 in 88 children (11.3 per 1,000 eight year olds) being identified with an autism spectrum disorder. The number of children identified with ASD ranged from 1 in 175 children in Alabama to 1 in 45 children in New Jersey.”

  93. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Notice the “30% higher since 2012” and “as high as 1 in 45 in New Jersey.”

  94. Nancy St. Martin says:

    In the 1970s, the autism rate was one in every 10,000 kids and almost no one knew anyone with autism. That changed when the definition was broadened in 1994 to include other behaviors doctors were seeing in children. At that point the numbers exploded.

    1995 1:500
    2001 1:250
    2004 1:166
    2007 1:150
    2009 1:110
    2012 1:88
    2013 1:50

    You claim that all the autism is the result of better diagnosing of a disorder that’s always been around. If that were true, the rate would have leveled out between 1995 and 2000, after the definition was changed in 1994. That hasn’t happened.

  95. Marcia says:

    I am a speech-language pathologist and have worked in the same elementary school for 25 years. I work with a highly experienced team of professionals who have dedicated their lives to serving to children in public schools. We are not concerned with reimbursement from medical insurance. We do not receive any profit from the marketing and sales of quick-fix, cure all programs. Our work is not dependent on grants or the results of our research. Our work will not make headlines or sell magazines. It will not go viral and be used as a link for web advertising.

    I have never contributed to any on-line debate on this topic and have no desire to do so again. However, after reading the comments above I had the feeling that I was a child at a cocktail party, l listening to a room full of adults argue about the statistics of neglected children. What is the point? Why argue about headlines and inconclusive studies? Does anyone really think that statistics will give us an answer? Or is this just a way to avoid fear.

    Here is the simple truth. No jargon. No numbers: The children that are enrolled in my classroom today, have very different needs as compared to the children who were enrolled 15 years ago. This is not because, back in the day, there were more children in institutions. It is not because my former students really had the same needs and I just don’t remember them very well, or that I just used different terms to categorize children. I don’t even use those terms unless I have to communicate with someone who needs big words to feel important. It is not because our busting- at- the- seams, school launched an advertising campaign so we could stretch our budget just a little bit more. It is most certainly not because the hard working families of these beautiful children are just following a popular new trend in in parenting.

    I will agree that , over the years, the language that has been used to describe behaviors or skills has changed. More contemporary, politically correct labels have been created. However, those of us who have actually been working with children in a public classroom did not participate in that project. We don’t have time to publish, do research, attend committee luncheons, or even go the bathroom. We teach. We observe. We take data. We spend more time with the children in our classrooms than their parents do. We don’t need to debate statistics. We know. We are not concerned about what the popular public trend is. We live it.

    So here is a fact: We have seen a dramatic increase in children being referred to us who demonstrate significant challenges in sensory processing, motor planning and communication. These children have striking and dramatic differences in the way that they play and interact with people in their environment. Their neurological and biological systems are so overwhelmed that many resort to engaging in repetitive behaviors and routines in order to protect themselves from the constant bombardment of language and sensations that they can not interpret. If they had been here 20 years ago I would remember.

    On the other hand, many of these children demonstrate academic skills that are far more advanced than their classmates who do not flap their hands, and are able to look adults in the eye. So statistically these children could help to create a new “norm curve” for academics. The possible result could be that my “typically developing” child could then be statistically, delayed or even worse…..atypical.

    Each child is an individual. Knowing how many children exist in the population, that exhibit similar behavior patterns to the individual, is as useful to me as knowing how many children used a binky or picked their nose. It is not about seeing children as a percentage of the group. It is not about identifying everything that is different or lacking and changing it. It is about finding a way to see the world through a child’s eyes. It is about understanding that the “norm” is not necessarily better, and different is not a disease. Maybe we need to just understand.

    I do not work with statistics.
    I do not work with diagnoses.
    I do not call my students Asperger’s
    or ASD, Classic or rock n roll Autism.

    They are children
    They have names

  96. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Thanks for chiming in Marcia! Interesting point of view from somebody who works with children every day. Thank you for all that you do!

  97. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: None of those numbers correlate with vaccination rates or pollution levels. In other words, they argue against your claims, rather than for them.

    Marcia: Interesting, but we need statistics for a reason. Do you know what confirmation bias is?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

    That’s the reason we need numbers.

  98. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I guessed you missed this…

    “Here’s the other line from the article…”About 1 in 68 children has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC’s Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network.”

    And this…

    “The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that 1 in 68 children (or 14.7 per 1,000 eight-year-olds) in multiple communities in the United States has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This new estimate is roughly 30 percent higher than previous estimates reported in 2012 of 1 in 88 children (11.3 per 1,000 eight year olds) being identified with an autism spectrum disorder. The number of children identified with ASD ranged from 1 in 175 children in Alabama to 1 in 45 children in New Jersey.”

    Notice the “30% higher since 2012″ and “as high as 1 in 45 in New Jersey.”

  99. Gray Falcon says:

    You mean the parts that clearly show that autism reports do not correlate with vaccination rates?

    And even if they did, there’s still the fact that correlation and causation are not the same.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

    I have a rather nice chart strongly correlation global temperatures and the level of piracy. Are pirates causing global warming?

  100. Nancy St. Martin says:

    No, I mean the part about answering your question..,

    James, ““It looks like 2% of American kids now have autism, but it’s a lot more common in the younger ones, with numbers going up every year.”

    Your Question….”Do you have evidence of this?”

    Now that your question has been answered by the CDC, you move the goal posts to debate something else entirely. Way to change the topic.

  101. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray Falcon, you do know that wikipedia is not a good source to use right?

  102. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Please demonstrate how a pirate and global warming are related?

  103. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: Sorry, I forgot what we were discussing. Nonetheless, the numbers you gave could just as easily support the claim that it’s due to changes in diagnostic criteria. Alabama has one of the worst-funded education systems, New Jersey one of the best. More money for counselors: More diagnoses. Same with the paragraph I quoted. The rise in more intelligent autistic children could just as easily imply that people are simply diagnosing the same child as “autistic” that they wouldn’t have twenty years ago.

    Also, I used Wikipedia because, unlike some people here, it actually bothers to cite it’s sources.

  104. Nancy St. Martin says:

    BTW, Utah has one of the highest rates of Autism and is also one of the least funded educational states, so sorry that blow a hole in your theory.

    And as far as your theory to changes to diagnostic criteria, think again.

    In the 1970s, the autism rate was one in every 10,000 kids and almost no one knew anyone with autism. That changed when the definition was broadened in 1994 to include other behaviors doctors were seeing in children. At that point the numbers exploded.

    1995 1:500
    2001 1:250
    2004 1:166
    2007 1:150
    2009 1:110
    2012 1:88
    2013 1:50

    You claim that all the autism is the result of better diagnosing of a disorder that’s always been around. If that were true, the rate would have leveled out between 1995 and 2000, after the definition was changed in 1994. That HASN’T happened.

  105. Nancy St. Martin says:

    For future reference, Wikipedia is not a trust worthy source to use and if you want to be credible you won’t use it.

  106. Gray Falcon says:

    “If that were true, the rate would have leveled out between 1995 and 2000, after the definition was changed in 1994.” Not true. Another possibility is simply that people are being diagnosed as such when they wouldn’t have been twenty years ago, when “autism awareness” wasn’t a thing. I wasn’t diagnosed as autistic until around 2004, when I was in college. Does that mean I wasn’t autistic before then?

    “For future reference, Wikipedia is not a trust worthy source to use and if you want to be credible you won’t use it.” Translation: I don’t know what a bibliography is.

  107. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You don’t know what a bibliography is? I’m sure Wikipedia can tell you!

    Instead of seeking out recognized authorities in hundreds or thousands of fields to write its articles, Wikipedia lets anybody — everybody — write them. And it also lets anybody edit nearly all of them at will.

  108. Gray Falcon says:

    “Instead of seeking out recognized authorities in hundreds or thousands of fields to write its articles, Wikipedia lets anybody — everybody — write them. And it also lets anybody edit nearly all of them at will.” And requires that they post sources in the bibliography.

  109. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I don’t believe you have autism today.

    My child does not have a diagnosis on our medical record, we paid out of pocket so it wouldn’t ruin our insurance, and I know many others who have done the same thing. So does that mean he/she doesn’t have autism?

  110. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Go ahead and keep quoting Wikipedia and nobody will take it seriously. Heck, you mine as well quote from whale.to as they also provide reference links and bibliographies.

  111. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Here’s one from whales.to with reference links http://www.whale.to/v/monkeys_get_autism.html

  112. Gray Falcon says:

    “Go ahead and keep quoting Wikipedia and nobody will take it seriously.”
    Fine then, how about this: https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation.html
    I only used Wikipedia because it was convenient. Did you seriously think they were the only source I know?

    “Heck, you mine as well quote from whale.to as they also provide reference links and bibliographies.”

    “I don’t believe you have autism today.” Don’t believe me? Then I’ll just dismiss everything you say about your child out of hand as well. Goodbye.

  113. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I never disagreed with your “Correlation does not imply Causation” statement, only pointing out not to use Wikipedia if you want to be taken seriously.

    Good bye.

  114. Gray Falcon says:

    It says much about “Nancy St. Martin” that describing one’s own child as a soulless automaton is perfectly acceptable, but suggesting he isn’t is “hateful.”

    Also, she never did debate my real point: That most autistic people are not like the stereotypes she used.

  115. novalox says:

    @nancy

    I call scopie’s law.

    “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately..and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    So thank you for admitting that you have nothing of merit to contribute here, that you have been lying the entire time you have been here and that everything that you have stated here as well as anything else you post here can be considered as much, and that you admit that vaccines are beneficial.

  116. novalox says:

    @nancy

    I also find your attitude towards those with autism very disgusting. I’ve worked with children and adults with special needs, and those who had no to bad parenting, like you have demonstrated, those who did not accept their children but instead had your attitude, as a “souless” being, had those most troubles.

    If you are indeed telling the truth, which I seriously doubt, given your continued lies and insults, you are just setting you and your child up for trouble in the future.

  117. Gray Falcon says:

    @novolax: She wasn’t using it as a credible source, she was mocking my citing Wikipedia. Still an incredibly weak argument, since she failed to explain why her stereotypes were accurate.

  118. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray Falcon… “It says much about “Nancy St. Martin” that describing one’s own child as a soulless automaton is perfectly acceptable, but suggesting he isn’t is “hateful.”
    Also, she never did debate my real point: That most autistic people are not like the stereotypes she used.”

    Please point to the comment where I said any of this. Your memory is really awful.

    I work with kids with autism so I know exactly how they are.

  119. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Novalox, my attitude toward those with autism disgusting? I can tell you I have done a lot more for the autism community than you have. I have volunteered over 1000 hours of my time and helped many children and their families. I highly doubt you can say the same thing.

  120. Gray Falcon says:

    Here you go, Nancy:
    “Gray, I don’t believe you. If you had autism you would be much more empathetic and compassionate, and you would understand what is happening with these children with autism. You would never say… “Did it ever occur to you that not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way?” In fact, I believe you owe James an apology for your cruel condescending words.”

    If you really volunteered 1000 hours of your time to work with autistic children, then you would have picked up something to know that even severely autistic children have their own ways of expressing their emotions. That you don’t suggests an emptiness without yourself that I find quite disturbing.

  121. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Here I go what? I said that you should be empathetic and compassionate towards James and his child. Where is it that I described my own child as a soulless automation and full of emptiness?

    I am well aware that children with severe autism communicate and have emotions, are you really dense? I have a child with autism and as I said I have volunteered over 1000 hours of time working with these children and parents, using therapies like Son-Rise and other therapies to interact and communicate with these kids.

  122. Nancy St. Martin says:

    This is where that quote came from…

    Gray Falcon says, “James: So in other words, you made no effort whatsoever to understand your child, and refuse to accept him in any way. Did it ever occur to you that not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way?”

    This is part of a bigger conversation where you said that most kids with autism are not as bad as James had described and that it was only that, “not every human being expresses their emotions in the same way” In other words James was out of his mind and his kid is fine and it’s only that James doesn’t understand the way his kid expresses emotions.

    There are many, many kids with severe forms of autism as James has described, whether you deny it or not, it doesn’t change anything.

  123. novalox says:

    @nancy

    Given your attitude to those with autism and with those with special needs as well as your use of insults and ad hominems, I highly doubt your story that you volunteer to help others with autism.

    Again, I’ve worked with those with special needs, some with severe forms of autism. I understand that it is hard, but the one thing to know is that they are a person, with needs and emotions.

    So again,considering your previous lies here, I have my doubts about you and your story.

  124. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Yes, I agree, why don’t you research Son-Rise and see what it is. The point is to go where the child is to communicate with them instead of forcing them to come to where we are.

    My attitude with those was autism is one of caring, loving, and acceptance.

  125. Joy Tate says:

    Nancy,
    Have you seen that in Minneapolis last year, researchers found that one in 36 vaccinated white children had autism, one in 32 vaccinated Somali chilldren? That may be the highest rate yet. CDC numbers are behind the times.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/health/study-links-autism-and-somalis-in-minneapolis.html?_r=0

  126. Gray Falcon says:

    Son-Rise again. I’m betting “Nancy” is the same person who said “I have nothing to apologize for, if you think not being able to talk and communicate, control yourself and shit in your diapers is surviving well, you are sorely mistaken!” in a previous thread.

  127. Gray Falcon says:

    Oh, and I’m not particularly impressed by Son-Rise, after reading this:
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/09/30/open-letter-to-raun-kaufman-of-son-rise/.

  128. Gray Falcon says:

    Here’s what James said about his child:

    “My autistic child cannot communicate, is not interested in anything, does not appear to care about any other person. No affection, no interest, no concern. About anything except his food and his belongings. No questions. No Good morning! Never said even I’m hungry, I’m thirsty, I’m tired. No I’m sorry your mother died. No I’m sorry you’ve got the flu, can I do anything? No curiosity, no questions about anything. No Look at that! Wow!”

    That only raised my suspicions. I’ve worked with profoundly autistic people, and they aren’t like that. I only pointed out what I learned from experience, and Nancy flew off the handle.

  129. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, fyi, we have a couple of fb pages on Autism and Vaccines with many son-rise people involved. If somebody brought up son-rise previously, good for them.

    The fact that you are not impressed with a press release has nothing to with the therapy. If you know of something better, please feel free to tell me what it is. We also do aba therapy which is ok, but it only teaches how to do things without the reasons why and without emotion.

    And yes, I know children like Jame’s child, so they do exist and if you had autism like you cliam and worked with “profoundly” autistic people, you would know this. There is nothing “suspicious” about his child.

    I flew off of the handle because you were condescending to and belittling James and his child.

  130. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Hello Joy, thanks for the information, truly very sad situation.

  131. Gray Falcon says:

    James was treating his own child like he was less than an animal. Why is that not worthy of contempt?

  132. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I disagree, James was trying to get it through your thick skull how hard his situation was and you denied it and wouldn’t listen, so he described his child so you would wake up,pay attention and understand.

  133. Gray Falcon says:

    If James had talked about the issues his child had, I would have been able to empathize. Self-centeredness is, in a parent, a mortal sin.

  134. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Until you raise one of these kids you have no idea what you are talking about. Leave your judgment at home.

  135. Gray Falcon says:

    I was one of “these kids”! Leave your hate at home!

  136. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You were one of the kids that you said didn’t exist? You make a lot of sense. Remember, you were “suspicious” of James’ child? Did you forget already?

  137. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Here’s a nice link for you Joy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3364648/

  138. Gray Falcon says:

    So now Nancy’s arguing semantics. Typical. One question, Nancy. Was saying “I have nothing to apologize for, if you think not being able to talk and communicate, control yourself and shit in your diapers is surviving well, you are sorely mistaken!” acceptable?

  139. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I never said that Gray, now you are a liar.

    Semantics? You first said those types of severely autistic children didn’t exist, then you said you were one of those kids and I should stop hating. You are obviously very confused.

  140. Liz says:

    Chris,
    Why does Dr. Diane Harper not count? Just because she is a physician who helped develop the HPV vaccine but later realized it was a dangerous vaccine, and has said so publicly? She said on Katie Couric last year that it’s safer to follow the new advice to get DNA testing for HPV and also a Pap test regularly, she said that offered a 100% rate of cure when done early, and avoided the risks of the vaccine. Beside her were two mothers, one whose daughter was killed by Gardasil and one whose daughter was severely injured by it. Are you saying that no one’s opinion counts if they don’t agree with you?

  141. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: I never said you said it, I just guessed. I just wanted to know if you approved.

    Also, I never said severely autistic children didn’t exist, only that autism isn’t as extreme as you make it out to be.

    Liz: You mean this Diane Harper?
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/16/yet-another-antivaccine-meme-rises-from-the-grave-again-no-diane-harper-doesnt-hate-gardasil/

  142. Lawrence says:

    @liz – repeating anti-vaccine lies does not help your credibility.

  143. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray I have no idea in what context and what conversation that statement was made. I can’t comment on it.

    You said that the characteristics that James used to describe his child made you highly suspicious. I would say there are “extreme” cases and I have worked with “extreme” cases of autism many times. Again, you have no idea how extreme it may be until you raise one of these children yourself. So now I guess you are back-tracking and saying you were not one of these kids?

  144. Liz says:

    Gray Falcon,
    How old were you when you learned to write as well as you do now? For how many years were you unable to communicate? What therapies did you receive that taught you how to write and think using complex language? It would seem that you have Asperger’s, or very high-functioning autism, which is very different from those who have average autism.

  145. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – there are a small percentage of severe autistics, but I have never seen any of them described with so much absolute loathing as James.

    He is doing his child a serious disservice.

  146. Gray Falcon says:

    “Gray I have no idea in what context and what conversation that statement was made. I can’t comment on it.” You don’t need context to know that a statement like that isn’t acceptable.

    Liz: None of that is the issue here. Now, do you have evidence that “average” autism is anything like what Nancy and James describe?

  147. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, What James described was severe autism and there are many with sever autism. There is no definition of “average”. Why don’t you answer Liz’s question?

  148. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Well you haven’t been around many kids with autism then Lawrence. Just because you are not aware of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    Thanks for the link Lawrence, the comments are interesting to read through.

    I especially like this statement from Dr, Jay….

    “You know I give vaccines every day. I don’t think they’re as safe as they should be. I know that the current vaccine schedule is expedient, very profitable and not science based. Grow up.”

  149. Gray Falcon says:

    I didn’t answer Liz’s questions because they were completely irrelevant to this conversation. Now why did you say “There is no definition of “average”.” when Liz clearly used the phrase “average autism”?

  150. Nancy St. Martin says:

    It’s called generally speaking Gray.

  151. Gray Falcon says:

    Now, tell me something. If the fact that I am “high-functioning” disqualifies me speaking about “average autism”, what does that say about someone who isn’t autistic at all?

  152. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I still don’t believe you have autism and even if you did, it surely wouldn’t disqualify you from speaking about it. But you shouldn’t make statements and claims about things that you don’t know about. You obviously have no idea how severe autism can be and the affect it has on parents and families.

  153. Gray Falcon says:

    “I still don’t believe you have autism” Nancy, what gives you the right to say that? I know how severe autism can be, I know a severely autistic man who is nearly unable to communicate. And I certainly will not say that he does not care “About anything except his food and his belongings.”

  154. Liz says:

    OK, Gray Falcon, I think it would be helpful to clarily that many of us think of Kanner’s autism as average autism, and Asperger’s syndrome is different. That’s why they took Asperger’s out of the autism diagnosis last year. It’s less disabling and lets people who have it use language fairly well, unlike Kanner’s autism. To get a diagnosis of Kanner’s autism you need to have severe difficulty using language to communicate, severe difficulty interacting socially, and repetitive behaviors, or stims, hand-flapping, lining things up obsessively, repeating words over and over with no communicative value. Between a quarter to a half of those with Kanner’s autism can never speak at all, and all of the others have severe problems with language used to communicate (as opposed to just repetition without functional meaning). If vaccines can cause autism, as they can, then it is up to parents to decide which risk they’d rather take. Most autistic people never grow out of it and are never able to live independently or hold a meaningful job. That’s why it’s known as a lifelong developmental disability.

  155. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, you claim to know one severely autistic man who doesn’t speak, but cares about things other than food and belongings, so what? What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. Go spend over 1000 hours training and working with children with autism and their parents and then come back to me and tell me how severe autism can be.

    You claimed to be one of the severe autistic children, but then won’t answer Liz’s questions. I think that is highly suspicious.

  156. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Liz, approx 15% of people with adult autism go on to live independently, and then approx another 15% live with assistance like Group Homes etc.. That leaves approx 70% that can not live independently.

  157. Gray Falcon says:

    I never meant to claim to be severely autistic, only that I was autistic. Now tell me, where did you get your numbers?

  158. Gray Falcon says:

    “Gray, you claim to know one severely autistic man who doesn’t speak, but cares about things other than food and belongings, so what? What does that prove? ” It proves that making a statement about someone caring only about their food and belongings is utterly inhuman.

  159. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Welcome to the real world Gray Falcon.

  160. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I’m done with this conversation.

  161. Gray Falcon says:

    I accept your unconditional surrender, Nancy.

  162. Gray Falcon says:

    And of course, Nancy never did tell me the source for her latest numbers. Typical.

  163. novalox says:

    @GF

    Well, what would you expect from a known liar like her?

  164. Liz says:

    Gray Falcon,
    Since you don’t know James’ son, how can you say that you know what he is like based on what you and the man you referred to are like? How does the man you know who cannot speak convey what else he is interested in? And you said that the age you learned to communicate and how you managed it are not relevant? Why are they not relevant? You don’t want to give any concrete suggestions to give hope to autism parents, so that they have some hope that their child may turn out like you (in some regards)?

  165. Gray Falcon says:

    Liz, James’ statements weren’t about his child’s problems, they were about how awful a child he was and how wonderful he was for raising him. I have no sympathy for people like that.

    “How does the man you know who cannot speak convey what else he is interested in?” Do you know what body language is?

    “And you said that the age you learned to communicate and how you managed it are not relevant? Why are they not relevant?” If they are relevant, then that means you, who are not autistic, have no right to speak at all.

    Oh, and where’s your source for your claims about “Most autistic people never grow out of it and are never able to live independently or hold a meaningful job.” If you fail to provide a source in your next three posts, I will accept that as proof that you made it up.

  166. Gray Falcon says:

    Oh, and you want concrete advice for parents of children with autism? Don’t act like your children are something you scraped off your shoes.

  167. lilady says:

    Could we all get back on topic?

    I’m interested in hearing opinions about the NOVA documentary “Calling The Shots”.

    IMO, the documentary was excellent, insofar as it touched on the development of the vaccines which are on the CDC/AAP Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule and dramatic decreases in terms of infant and childhood morbidity and mortality for each vaccine-preventable disease.

    I was especially impressed with the segment in the elevator, which illustrated how some cases of measles were spread during an outbreak and it’s epidemiological implications for the spread of measles in doctors’ waiting rooms and hospital emergency rooms…when a patient with early signs of measles (runny nose and Koplik’s spots) and history of exposure in a measles-endemic area without a history of vaccination against measles, is not diagnosed as a “suspect measles case”…and the examining room is not sealed off for at least 2 hours, to prevent airborne/droplet transmission of the virus to other patients.

    My one ‘complaint’ with “Calling The Shots” is that the documentary was not formatted to at least 90 minutes (or 120 minutes) in length.

  168. lilady says:

    Not only is that post above blatant Spam…it is racist, as well.

  169. dingo199 says:

    “Well you haven’t been around many kids with autism then Lawrence. Just because you are not aware of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”

    What’s that Nancy? Rather reminiscent of the “epidemic” of autism, isn’t it?
    Just because people did not recognise or diagnose autistic spectrum disorders with the expanded diagnostic criteria, that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.

  170. Liz says:

    G.F.,
    Could you provide a Pubmed source for the number of autistic twenty to twenty-five year olds currently living in the U.S. (no Asperger’s, it’s been taken out of the ASD group), with the number who are in college now, and the number of those who have gainful employment? With a breakdown of what kind of jobs they are, whether skilled or menial jobs? Also the number of those living with their parents, those living in their own apartments or houses, and the number in assisted living or in institutions? Also the number of those on Medicaid and the number getting Social Security Disability payments? Chris, Lilady, Lawrence, please feel free to help him get this information together so that we can all learn something.

  171. David says:

    Dingo,
    Your opinion on Dr. Kanner’s statement in 1943 about the first autistic children on record from the 1930s having a condition so strange and distinctive (severely disturbed language, social interactions, and perseverative behaviors) that IF it ahd existed anywhere in the world at any time, someone would have noticed it and described it, but no one ever had?

  172. Lawrence says:

    @david – and what percentage of those with autism today fit Kanner’s profile?

  173. Gray Falcon says:

    Liz, Strike 1. You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

    David, I read Kanner’s article, and I never saw anything like that statement.

  174. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Dingo,

    In the 1970s, the autism rate was one in every 10,000 kids and almost no one knew anyone with autism. That changed when the definition was broadened in 1994 to include other behaviors doctors were seeing in children. At that point the numbers exploded.
    1995 1:500
    2001 1:250
    2004 1:166
    2007 1:150
    2009 1:110
    2012 1:88
    2013 1:50
    You claim that all the autism is the result of better diagnosing of a disorder that’s always been around. If that were true, the rate would have leveled out between 1995 and 2000, after the definition was changed in 1994. That HASN’T happened.

  175. lilady says:

    @ Slayer Lilady: Is that choice of your ‘nym a threat?

    Get you own ‘nym and stop threatening me…it is a violation of the Commenting Policy.

  176. Gray Falcon says:

    By the way, I checked, the DSM-5 actually lists Asperger’s as a category of Autism Spectrum Disorder:
    http://www.autism-society.org/about-autism/aspergers-syndrome/

    So the opposite of Liz’s claim is actually the truth. No surprise, really.

  177. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Who can keep track? So what is the point? Asperger’s is a form of autism, great.

  178. Gray Falcon says:

    It means that one could explain your numbers simply through broadening criteria more awareness.

    By the way, did you watch Nova’s documentary? I’m going to have to, I think it’s on YouTube.

  179. lilady says:

    According to the current issue (September 12), there are 593 confirmed measles cases in the United States, YTD.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm6336md.pdf

    The majority of the outbreaks of measles occurred in Ohio among unvaccinated Amish communities (397 confirmed measles cases, YTD). Some of the Amish went to the Philippines which has experienced ~ 40,000 cases of measles and several hundred deaths, since last year. Those unvaccinated Amish missionaries became infected in the Philippines and returned home to infected other unvaccinated members of their communities…including infants who were too young to have received MMR vaccines.

    Some of those early cases of measles were misdiagnosed at area hospitals, and some transmissions of the virus took place in Emergency Rooms.

    It looks as though the Ohio State Health Department and Ohio County Health Departments, were able to contain, then stop, these multiple outbreaks, by offering free MMR vaccines during special clinics set up to provide the vaccine. The last confirmed case of measles had symptoms onset on July 23, 2014.

    http://www.odh.ohio.gov/features/odhfeatures/Measles%202014.aspx

  180. David says:

    Lawrence,
    I think they all do. To be diagnosed with autism, you have to have severe problems using language to communicate, be unable to have normal social interactions, and engage in some sort of repetitive, non-functional behavior. Diagnosis is based on a behavioral checklist, not on any kind of clinical tests. Dr. Kanner’s patients had pronoun reversal, echolalia, extremely impaired language use, were unable to have normal social interactions, and engaged in strange, repetitive, non-functional behavior, just like autistic people now. Dr. Kanner thought these behaviors were noteworthy because no one had ever seen them in children before. They were new because autism was new at that time.

  181. David says:

    Lilady,
    On “Calling the Shots,” the speaker said that measles was usually a mild disease. It has usually been a mild disease for many decades. If parents would rather their children get natural measles than the MMR, they are taking the lesser of the two risks in the experience of many.

  182. Gray Falcon says:

    David:
    Here’s what the DSM themselves have to say:
    http://www.autism.com/news_dsmV

    “One of the most significant changes is that the separate diagnostic labels of Autistic Disorder, Asperger’s Disorder, and PDD-NOS will be replaced by one umbrella term “Autism Spectrum Disorder.””

    In other words, they removed Asperger’s, but they’re still counting them as autistic.

  183. Lawrence says:

    @david – what about the tens of thousands of individuals who were institutionalized or just hidden away by their families back in the day before we shut down the large institutions and started mainstreaming many children with disabilities? Did those people not exist?

  184. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Lawrence, we’ve been using the same basic criteria for the last 20 years, so let’s just look at the last 20 years.

    1995 1:500
    2001 1:250
    2004 1:166
    2007 1:150
    2009 1:110
    2012 1:88
    2013 1:50

  185. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – if the criteria has been the same, and vaccination rates have been steady over that same timeframe….what changed?

  186. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – and why do rates vary widely across the country (New Jersey vs. Utah, for example) when vaccination rates are the same?

  187. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – guess what else has changed over that time period:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age

    Woman are having babies later in life….

  188. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Lawrence, vaccination rates have NOT been the same for the past 20 years. There are also other environmental factors that have changed in the last 20 years.

    Also, vaccination are NOT the same from State to State, and each state has it’s own criteria to determine the autism rate, there is not one uniformed approach. Utah for example, looks at medical and educational records when coming up with a number.

  189. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Besides, you weren’t debating vaccine’s/autism, you were denying that autism rates are up.

  190. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – you do realize that you just blew your own argument out of the water, right?

  191. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – your are right, vaccination rates used to be higher….again, you just blew your own argument.

  192. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – studies of adult populations show rates of what would considered autism to closely match the current rates of autism in children.

    Your arguments are invalid.

  193. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I didn’t blow anything, just because there is no consistency in how each state comes up with a number doesn’t prove anything. The numbers are still higher and some organizations do analyze the same every time like the CDC for example.

    What age are these adults? Over the age of 18? They would fall into the category of the last twenty years. I know two adults with autism or “autism like” symptoms, please don’t make me laugh.

  194. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy:
    1) I’m in my thirties, and I have autism. So are several of my friends. Are you saying they don’t exist? Of course you are. You have no heart, you fiend.
    2) If the inconsistency between states can be dismissed as measurement errors, so can the inconsistency between years.

  195. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, not sure what you are talking about? Are you trying to tell me the current adult population has as many with autism and the next generation of kids?

    I never said you didn’t exist. No heart? Fiend? Not even sure how to respond. FYI, the world does not revolve around you.

    Nobody said anything about any measurement errors.

  196. Gray Falcon says:

    Somebody declared his own son cared about nothing but “food and his belongings”. And you defended him. You have no right to speak of right and wrong.

    And pray tell, what explanation do you have for the wide variation of autism rates between states? If you fail to provide an explanation in your next three posts, it will be considered a concession that vaccines do not cause autism. If you provide an explanation that could also justify the difference between years, it too will be considered a forfeit. Good luck.

  197. Gray Falcon says:

    Oh, and you claim that I wasn’t autistic because I chose to defend someone. Denying my autistic adult friends exist would be perfectly in character for you.

  198. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You assume quite a bit Gray Falcon
    .
    1) I have met and worked with kids that are similar to James’ son. This is reality.
    2) I already gave an explanation of wide rates between states, not to mention a million other reasons, like environmental factors.
    3) I didn’t claim you weren’t autistic because you defended somebody, I don’t believe it because you have been caught lying here on several occasions, so I just don’t believe you.
    4) How can you say I denied that your adult autistic friends exist when I already said that I know two adults with autism or “autism like” characteristics?

  199. Gray Falcon says:

    Which lies? And thank you for conceding that the rise in autism numbers has nothing to do with vaccination.

  200. David says:

    Lawrence,
    Where were these institutions and when did they start warehousing the autistic? One of Kanner’s first autistic cohort, Bridget Muncy, was institionalized around 1940, for the rest of her life, but even her well-to-do professional family was hard put to it to pay its expenses. Do you think there was a government program to pay for it, and the Muncies, literate and educated as they were, just didn’t know about it? Was it only meant for and used by the poor? Why has no one ever heard of this program or these institutions? What happened that they are no longer available for the families needing them the most? Did they exist in the nineteenth century? The Middle Ages?The eighteenth? There were institutions for the deaf-mute, but they had been examined and were on record as being unable to hear, not unable to react normally to normal occurrences. At this time there is usually an autistic student in every classroom. Where were they before? The answer is that they did not exist before vaccines.

  201. Nancy St. Martin says:

    You are so lost Gray Falcon. We were never discussing autism/vaccines, only if the autism rates have risen.

  202. David says:

    Gray Falcon,
    How did what Nancy say concede that vaccination has nothing to do with the rise in autism numbers? Autism did not exist before vaccines. After vaccines began to be used, the rate of autism was three in 10,000 from the time the DPT started to be used after WWII, until the vaccine increase in the ’80s. Those children who developed autism were reacting to the DPT or sometimes to the smallpox vaccine. When the Hib, hep-B, and MMR vaccines were added, the rates of autism started their upward spiral, one in 36 now.

  203. David says:

    Lawrence,
    Back on topic. Calling the Shots said that the smallpox vaccine was incredibly safe and effective, and that the first anti-vaccine movement was because a lot of people were unintelligent enough to believe that the cowpox serum would give them cow-like features. Do you believe that this was the only justification for this first anti-vaccine movement, or do you believe the bad reactions many people had to the smallpox vaccine had more to do with it, reactions which included cancer, gangrene, anaphylaxis, and death? Do you believe the smallpox vaccine was safe and effective?

  204. Gray Falcon says:

    Nancy: What lies did I say? And if you aren’t discussing vaccines on a webpage about vaccination, then leave. Now.

    David: Provide me evidence that autism did not exist before vaccines. I have plenty of stories of “demon possession” and “changelings” that are surprisingly similar to autism.

    Also, smallpox was a major killer. The vaccine was safe and effective: Smallpox no longer exists. And if you wish to prove otherwise, please find the hundred million a year that smallpox has killed.

    Everyone else: Sorry for engaging Nancy. She and her friends have said some truly hateful things about autistic people, and I couldn’t let them stand. Seeing as she admitted she refuses to speak on topic, I think it would be a good idea to ban her.

  205. Gray Falcon says:

    Correction, smallpox deaths would probably be only ten million a year. Still far too many to cover up.

  206. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, I refuse to speak on what topic?
    I have done more for children with autism than you will do in a life time, so please DO NOT tell me I have said anything hateful about people with autism. You are the one denying the real issues that people with autism and their families have. YOU are the one looking the other way and not helping. YOU are the one.

    By the way, one of your lies was that you claimed you had severe autism as a kid and that I was a hater. Remember?

  207. Gray Falcon says:

    Sorry for the other Gray Falcon Nancy. Please don’t come down on him to hard. He is young and has a lot to learn. He tries really hard, so give him some credit for that.

  208. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray Falcon #2, what’s your view on vaccines?

    Thanks Scooter, it is interesting.

  209. Gray Falcon says:

    Fake Gray Falcon: I’m in my thirties, and I’ve learned plenty. Nancy’s attitude towards autistic children is like the attitudes of Native American boarding school teachers towards their students. You can’t help someone if you treat them like dirt.

    https://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/marr.html

    I have been helping autistic children. I haven’t been denying that they have problems, I’ve been defending them against people who use language straight out of nineteenth-century eugenics programs. Tell me, would you consider euthanasia?

  210. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, I couldn’t help but notice that Nancy has not gone into detail into what her 1000+ hours of working with autistic children entailed, aside from mentioning it included ABA. Here is one of the things our group helped do for an autistic adult:

    At the beginning, M. refused to eat anything but chicken nuggets and French fries. We worked with him on that, first, providing him with similar food and convincing him to eat that, and talking him into eating small amounts of other foods. We did not force him, and as time progressed, he became more and more tolerant, and now is willing to eat quite a number of different things. We did not deny that he had issues, nor did we simply give up, but we did not act like he was a monster, either.

    Oh, and if you think I was going too far with asking about euthanasia, consider that the videos produced by Autism Speaks contain multiple instances of parents contemplated filicide, while their children were present.

  211. Lawrence says:

    Sorry to go off-topic here, but Andrew Wakefield’s case in Texas is over!

    NO. 03-12-00576-CV
    Dr. Andrew J. Wakefield, MB, BS, Appellant
    v.
    The British Medical Journal Publishing Group, Ltd.;
    Brian Deer; and Dr. Fiona Godlee, Appellees
    APPEAL FROM 250TH DISTRICT COURT OF TRAVIS COUNTY
    BEFORE CHIEF JUSTICE JONES, JUSTICES GOODWIN AND FIELD
    AFFIRMED — OPINION BY JUSTICE FIELD
    This is an appeal from the judgment signed by the trial court on August 3, 2012. Having
    reviewed the record and the parties’ arguments, the Court holds that there was no reversible error
    in the trial court’s judgment. Therefore, the Court affirms the trial court’s judgment. The
    appellant shall pay all costs relating to this appeal, both in this Court and the court below.

  212. jgc56 says:

    nancy, I notice in your back and forth with gray you enver answered my question. let me repeat it:

    Nancy,your evidence that “hundreds or thousands of women/girls/boys are injured by [HPV] vaccine every year” would be…what. exactly? Be speciifc: indicate what injuries they experience and the how it has been factually estabished the injuries were caused by the vaccine.

    Liz, to the best of my knowledge Dr. Harper has never made any publci statements indicating a beleif that the HPV vaccine is “a dangerous vaccine”. Please provide a direct quote with appropriate attribution in support of your claim. she’s questioned whether the expected benefits are sufficient justify it be recommended that everyone receive the vaccination, but that’s hardly the same thing and i should note represents an extreme minority view.

    “OK, Gray Falcon, I think it would be helpful to clarily that many of us think of Kanner’s autism as average autism, and Asperger’s syndrome is different.”

    I.e., “Those other forms of autism aren’t REAL autism. Because we say so.”

  213. David says:

    Lawrence,
    Why did you not answer the question about whether the smallpox vaccine were really safe and effective? Gray Falcon, you might want to look at the statistics on the hundreds of thousands of vaccinated people who have died of smallpox or vaccine reactions anyway.
    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2010/02/26/smallpox-vaccine-origins-of-vaccine-madness/

  214. David says:

    jgc,
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gardasil-researcher-speaks-out/
    Dr. Harper says that the risks of the vaccine are small but real, and that there is no benefit to getting the vaccine. Since that time (2009), so many more vaccine injuries from Gardasil and Cervarix have occurred that, if she were not afraid of reprisals, she would probably phrase her objections to Gardasil more strongly. On Katie Couric’s show, she came out strongly in favor of the new protocol of DNA/Pap testing to detect cervical neoplasia at an early, treatable stage, and not getting the vaccine.

  215. David says:

    Asperger’s is considered mild autism, very high-functioning, by those who believe it should be on the autism spectrum at all. Those who have it are able to use language normally or almost normally. Those with Kanner’s autism are often completely unable to use any language or unable to use language to communicate. Gray Falcon would be unable to formulate and post his comments if he had this more serious, but increasingly common, form of autism.

  216. jgc56 says:

    “Autism did not exist before vaccines.”

    Just as epilepsy didn’t exist until sometime around 1000 CE when Avecinna first used the term to describe the condition. All those people suffering from the ‘falling sickness’ as described in ancient literature (such as the Babylonian stone tablet ‘Sakikku’ circa 1000 BC) or depicted in Mark 9;17-22, Matthew 17:14-20 and Luke 9:42, etc.) didn’t have epilepsy at all: they’re condition was actually due to genuine possession by demons instead.

    Right, David?

  217. Lawrence says:

    @David – way to take those quotes out of context from Dr. Harper (who was merely part of the clinical trial process for the vaccine and not a developer herself). She merely states that “if” the vaccine’s efficacy doesn’t last beyond a certain point – then it might not be an effective means of prevention, if given at a young age.

    And upon investigation, those “reports” of adverse reactions have been shown not to be significant or related after all….

    As to your other question – I didn’t answer it because I considered it to be asinine. Given that Smallpox had a mortality rate routinely in the 30 – 40% range, with some strains being fatal over 90% of the time, of course the vaccine was a better alternative….was it as safe as what we have today? No, it wasn’t – in fact, there were severe, known side-effects of the smallpox vaccine, including death.

    Was, overall, the vaccine preferable than the disease, of course! And since Smallpox has been eradicated in the wild, we don’t need to worry about it anymore anyway.

    Would a smallpox vaccine be designed differently today – yes it would. Would the side-effects be tolerated in today’s society? It depends….

  218. Lawrence says:

    @David – and your citation that the more serious forms of autism are increasing is, what exactly?

  219. Gray Falcon says:

    “Asperger’s is considered mild autism, very high-functioning, by those who believe it should be on the autism spectrum at all.” Note that the writers of the DSM-5 are on the list of those who believe it to be on the autism spectrum.
    http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/asperger/detail_asperger.htm
    “Those with Kanner’s autism are often completely unable to use any language or unable to use language to communicate.” They are also incredibly rare. All of the autistic adults and children in our organization have some level of language ability, even if it is limited.
    “Gray Falcon would be unable to formulate and post his comments if he had this more serious, but increasingly common, form of autism.” Where is the evidence that this form is increasingly common? All the evidence I see is that the definition of autism has gotten broader in the popular mindset.

    Of course, if David thinks smallpox was safer than the vaccine, then he is clearly too far out of it to debate anything.

  220. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – that’s true, given that it, alone, killed more people than all of our wars combined….

  221. Gray Falcon says:

    I suspect a good part of the reason Asperger’s is still considered part of the autism spectrum is simply because of categorization issues. If they were separate categories, there would be countless people, myself included, who it would be unclear which one they belonged to.

  222. David says:

    Lawrence,
    You phrased your reply very circumspectly, really only saying that smallpox killed a lot of people. We can all agree that it did. The question was whether you thought the program Calling the Shots stopped short of the mark when it said that many were against the vaccine only because they feared it would turn them into cows, rather than because so many had been killed or disabled by it. Do you believe it was a safe vaccine which never harmed anyone?

  223. David says:

    Gray Falcon,
    Yes, natural smallpox was an extremely deadly disease, I fully recognize that. However, I also believe that the vaccine was more dangerous than the disease.

  224. Gray Falcon says:

    David, how many millions did the vaccine kill?

  225. David says:

    Lawrence,
    On the fact that autism rates are continuing to increase at a fairly predictable rate every year, and it is not because milder and milder cases are being included. Have you watched any of the Hear me well videos posted by hundreds of autism parents whose children regressed into autism caused by vaccines?

  226. Lawrence says:

    @David – if you truly believe that, then you are certainly not a very intelligent individual.

    Smallpox mortality rate: 30% (with some forms being almost always fatal)

    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp

    Smallpox vaccine side effects: Death resulting from smallpox vaccination is rare, in the past approximately 1 to 2 primary vaccinees died per million vaccinated.

    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccination/reactions-vacc-clinic.asp

    So, 30% mortality rate vs. 1 – 2 deaths per million for the vaccine….hmmmm, even you should be able to do the math on that one.

  227. Lawrence says:

    @David – perhaps you should go back to the AoA echo-chamber, your baseless assertions are better suited there.

    As to the history of the anti-vax movement, it seems to have held a number of “interesting” beliefs about vaccination.

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-anti-vaccination-movements

  228. Lawrence says:

    @David – wow, your answer was incredibly circumspect as well – and doesn’t include any actual citations, I see…..

  229. Lawrence says:

    (and I disagree that my statement was “circumspect” – it was very direct in addressing that the disease was much, much worse than any side-effects from the vaccine) and I provided the evidence that this was in fact the case.

  230. Gray Falcon says:

    “Have you watched any of the Hear me well videos posted by hundreds of autism parents whose children regressed into autism caused by vaccines?” Historically, one could also find hundreds of parents who claim that the Fair Folk replaced their babies with changelings. Those videos are nothing more than a mass panic, in the same vein as “The War of The Worlds”.

  231. David says:

    Gray Falcon,
    In the decades in which vaccination for smallpox was mandated by law in the U.K. in the nineteenth century, tens of thousands of appropriately vaccinated people died of smallpox. In some villages in Italy, every single person died of smallpox, ALL of them appropriately vaccinated. In the Philippines, smallpox was not a big killer until Westerners introduced the smallpox vaccine, at which point countless thousands died of smallpox. And, of course, the adverse reactions to the vaccine also killed many thousands. it is difficult to say how many of these deaths were from vaccine failure and how many from smallpox caused by the vaccine: it usually wasn’t just a little pus from a cowpox vesicle that was scratched into the skin, but often other kinds of animal pus and often arm-to-arm from a person who had smallpox.

  232. jgc56 says:

    “Have you watched any of the Hear me well videos posted by hundreds of autism parents whose children regressed into autism caused by vaccines?”

    david, how exactly have those parents in those hear me well videos factually established that their childs’ regression into autism was actually caused by vaccines they received?

    It is on some basis other than simply a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy, I trust? Right?

  233. jgc56 says:

    “In the decades in which vaccination for smallpox was mandated by law in the U.K. in the nineteenth century, tens of thousands of appropriately vaccinated people died of smallpox.”

    Citations needed.

    “In the Philippines, smallpox was not a big killer until Westerners introduced the smallpox vaccine, at which point countless thousands died of smallpox.”

    Citations needed.

  234. Lawrence says:

    @David – how about actual citations & not just blanket assertions?

    You are also aware that medical science advanced rapidly over the past 130 years & we moved on from the from basic “cowpox” vaccine to much more reliable and effective processes over time, aren’t you?

  235. Gray Falcon says:

    And of course David phrased his assertions just vaguely enough that I can’t search for his sources, either.

  236. David says:

    Lawrence,
    Yes, I am aware of that. But we were talking about the nineteenth century because that was what was mentioned on Calling the Shots, whether those who feared the smallpox vaccine were doing so for silly reasons like fearing it would turn them into cows, or because they had seen the severe damage and death it had caused in many of their children and neighbors.
    And jgc, hundreds of mothers have put up videos or photos of their children before and after the vaccine that caused them to regress into autism, happy, laughing, smiling, talking before, and somber, unsmiling, the light gone out of their souls after the vaccine which caused their autism. Of course you can say that it’s all lies, in reality none of them regressed into autism, that all the boys who regressed into autism after the MMR did not really regress into autism, what? they had always been like that, it wasn’t really autism, they didn’t really get the MMR, they regressed into autism from an unknown factor coincidental with the MMR, I don’t know, of course you are free to come up with as many dismissive claims as your powers of invention allow. Whether anyone is going to believe you much longer is another story.

  237. Gray Falcon says:

    David, where are your sources? Why should we believe you?

    “And jgc, hundreds of mothers have put up videos or photos of their children before and after the vaccine that caused them to regress into autism, happy, laughing, smiling, talking before, and somber, unsmiling, the light gone out of their souls after the vaccine which caused their autism.”
    That is a disgusting thing to say about autistic people. Apologize.

  238. Gray Falcon says:

    By the way, “lacking the light of the soul” would be a good way to describe a sociopath. I’d rather deal with a group of autistic adults than a single sociopath. Why is there no outcry against them? I mean, they can rob their employees, bankrupt a company, and leave people homeless without batting an eye. That’s a lot worse than autism.

  239. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Again, welcome to the real world Gray Falcon.

    You are either in complete denial or are oblivious to what is happening. I too saw the light go out of my child’s eyes after vaccine induced regression, and I have to say it is about the worst thing that has ever happened to our family. Thankfully, we have recovered our child and the light is back.

    You really need to wake up and face what is happening, stop the denial, and start helping if you care so much. This is the reality that is happening right now. Again take a visit to the Autism Institute of America and see the 100’s of families that go there weekly. You can see first hand these children and what it is doing to these families.

  240. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray, I am a sociopath, and that is a disgusting thing to say. Now apologize.

  241. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – your description of autistic children, including your own, is horrendous and shows your true colors…..

  242. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Really Lawrence? Have you received any recognition for over 1000 hours of volunteer work with children with autism? No?

    It is awful and that is why so many are so antivax, because it is horrible and it needs to stop!

    It paints an ugly picture and guess what? It’s true!! You can’t just close your eyes and deny it’s existence juts because it is an awful situation.

    I challenge any of you to go to the Autism Institute of America and spend a week or two there and then come back and me that what I say isn’t true.

    WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP idiots!!

  243. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Lawrence is all talk and no action. If he truly cared he would be involved and know that what I say is true. But it is much easier to sit on the side line and deny things that you don’t know anything about. To put down all of the struggling parents and to sit back and say, autism is no big deal, when there are so many children and families suffering.
    Shows your true colors Lawrence. Get off of your high horse and help if you are so concerned. Prove to me that what I say is not true. Idiot!

  244. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – I know a lot more than you’d think, but I’m not putting myself out there as some kind of martyr….do children like you describe exist? Of course they do – just like children with Down Syndrome exist as well…does that make them less human or should be described in such terms? Absolutely not.

    What annoys me the most about people like you, is that you are constantly looking for someone or something to blame – and in this case, you blame vaccines, which have nothing to do with autism and your activities are doing nothing but creating more suffering by allowing children to suffer from diseases that by no rights they should ever have to worry about.

  245. Nancy St. Martin says:

    BS! No body described these children as less than human, on the contrary, they are angels in the purest form. And there are many more than what you think exists. Take my challenge and find out for yourself.

    1) Please prove that I am consonantly looking for someone to blame? You have no grounds to even suggest such a thing.

    2) Vaccine’s were the tipping point for my child’s autism and health issues. So again you are flat WRONG. Again take my challenge and see what you find out, see what you learn. You know nothing of me or my family, and trust me, vaccine’s were a huge part of my child’s health issues. For you to say anything different is a lie.

    You act so righteous and you are nothing more than a coward hiding on blogs like these, putting down people who know things you have yet to find out.

    Why don’t you find out for yourself. Take the challenge if you truly care about this. Do it! Go spend some time working with children with autism and their families. It will open your eyes and you won’t be such an a–, being mean, and judging everybody.

  246. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – given that we are talking about two completely separate issues, vaccines saving lives on one hand and improving public health & those with autism…..

    I’m sure there are a number of organizations that provide legitimate therapies and assistance to those with autism and provide their families with support.

    Vaccines don’t cause autism….so there is no need for you to be bringing up your work with those with autism, because it is not related to vaccines.

  247. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – then you might want to talk with Jim, because his description of his child was certainly no “angel.”

  248. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Yes, the Autism Institute of America is an organization legitimately helping families.
    Now, go take the challenge! Then tell me vaccines have nothing to do with the rise in autism. Take the challenge! You must be afraid of learning the truth.
    I bring up my work because you do not understand that vaccines are taking the light from our children’s eyes. Vaccines Lawrence, vaccines. You apparently don’t understand what is happening and how horrible it is.

  249. Nancy St. Martin says:

    James only described his child’s characteristics, he didn’t say anything about being bad or anything other than an angel. Wake up, there are plenty of kids just as he described.

  250. Lawrence says:

    @nancy – I’ll recommend that you read “The Great Derangement” by Matt Tabibi, it describes exactly why people like you end up thinking the way that you do…it prove to be highly enlightening.

    I will also leave you with this:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/02/09/autism-quackery-invades-my-hometown-1/

  251. Nancy St. Martin says:

    no eye contact
    doesn’t smile
    doesn’t seem happy
    can’t talk
    isn’t potty trained
    has impulses to run or be aggressive
    stares and fixates on things
    has “isms”
    if does talk only as echolalia

    Need I go on? This is reality.

  252. Gray Falcon says:

    “Gray, I am a sociopath…” Thank you for admitting the truth.

    By the way, I recognize that challenge. That’s the exact same challenge that “Peggy Lyons” gave in the “Should I Take My Three-Week Old to the Family Reunion?”! You’re the one who said “if you think not being able to talk and communicate, control yourself and shit in your diapers is surviving well, you are sorely mistaken!” about autistic people.

  253. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I think the way I do from experience of hundreds of kids and medical situations. I highly doubt Matt has ever been in the trenches. He’s probably a lot like you.

  254. Nancy St. Martin says:

    I have NEVER made that comment Gray Falcon. Liar!

  255. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – I think it’s time to ignore Nancy. I know a number of people on the spectrum & never in a million years would I even consider referring to them in the way that Nancy (and especially Jim) has done in this very thread.

    She obviously wants to be some kind of martyr & I feel no need to continue to fuel her delusions.

  256. Gray Falcon says:

    Sorry, Nancy, but the evidence is plain. Same claims, same wording, same challenge, same everything. It’s simply too suspicious.

    Now here’s something else suspicious. Out of the two of us, I was the only one who gave details on his work with autistic people. You just talk about the number of hours. Why is that?

  257. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Gray Falcon you are a liar! If you don’t prove that I am the one that made that comment in your next comment than we will all know you are lying and you should be banned for accusations you can’t back up. You are a disgrace to anybody who has autism, if indeed you are really autistic.

  258. Nancy St. Martin says:

    OMG Lawrence, you are a coward. You make me sick. Denial because you don’t know anyone who fits those descriptions. Guess what, kids like that rarely go out in public settings. Take the challenge and put some time in you coward! Make me sick!

  259. Lawrence says:

    @Nancy – well hello there Peggy Lyons…..I just went back to the old thread & sure enough, Gray has a point. For example:

    “Peggy Lyons
    September 2, 2014 at 7:47 pm
    OMG, absolutely nothing you have presented Lawrence, has anything to do with disproving that certain kids with autism have high levels of the vaccine ingredients in their little bodies. I don’t personally have access to medical records, so no I cannot provide you proof. I can tell you I spent two weeks at the Autism Treatment Center of America and met 200 plus families with children with varying conditions I have described. If you were actually involved in the autism community you would know.”

    Same self-righteous anger too…..and that’s all I need to say about that. Not playing into her delusions of martyrdom…

  260. Lawrence says:

    And BOOM – with the one last post, she reveals her true identify (if Peggy or Nancy is even her real name). I’m signing off from this particular sick little game she’s playing.

    I am even beginning to suspect a bit of M’BP here as well.

  261. Gray Falcon says:

    @Lawrence: You’re right, there’s no point talking with her. She only wants to look good, and now that she’s been caught out, all she can do is scream at us in rage. Perhaps we should ask Ms. Vara to look at the IP addresses and see what she sees.

  262. Nancy St. Martin says:

    So Peggy went to the center for two weeks, you think that makes us the same person? You are the delusional one. I have noticed that you make quite a number of people angry with your condescending arrogance Lawrence, what’s so special about that?

  263. Nancy St. Martin says:

    Yes, do that Gray and when you find out I am not Peggy, than you should be forever banned from this site right? Do you agree?

    I am screaming because you two idiots won’t wake up and admit the issues with autism. You’re both in la la land thinking all is well when there is a real crisis going on and kids and families that need serious help and treatment.

  264. Chris says:

    Yawn, boring sock puppet troll is boring.

  265. David says:

    Nancy,
    It doesn’t matter what they say. Everyone reading this has seen autistic kids at church, school, at the supermarket, and everyone is horrified at the idea that they might have one themselves. Everyone in the world knows it’s horrible. Of course it’s not the poor children’s fault, it’s the fault of the vaccines, and already the educated, rich people are refusing vaccines in droves, and going to all lengths to recover the autistic children they have now. The Nova program was just a clumsy attempt to counter the pretty resounding story of Dr. Thompson, the CDC researcher who admits he helped to commit fraud when they have denied for so many years that vaccines cause autism, knowing full well all along that they do. Dr. Thompson texted Dr. Wakefield to say how sorry he was for playing a part in ruining his career. Apparently Dr. Thompson has given 100,000 incriminating docs to his lawyer, who will release them one by one. We will all stay tuned…

  266. Gray Falcon says:

    Once again, David provides no evidence that he isn’t making stuff up.

  267. Chris says:

    Dollars to donuts: David = Nancy = Peggy = every other sock puppet troll

  268. jgc56 says:

    “Everyone in the world knows it’s horrible. ”

    I don’t, David, so that statement is demonstrably false. May I count on you to stop making that false statement in the future?

  269. jgc56 says:

    Oh, and one more thing, David:

    “Of course it’s not the poor children’s fault, it’s the fault of the vaccines”

    Your evidence that a causal association exists between autism spectrum disorders and routine childhood vaccination would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    I mean, you do have some–don’t you?

  270. Nancy St. Martin says:

    jpc56, it is horrible and it doesn’t need to happen. I sincerely hope nobody in your family ever gets a vaccine injury because then you will say it is horrible.

    Chris, I would be happy to bet you some dollars or donuts on your claim.

  271. Chris says:

    All I want you and your sock puppets to do is provide PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric causes more than the disease. Nothing else. Here are some examples:

    Thimerosal exposure in early life and neuropsychological outcomes 7-10 years later.

    Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies (a pdf of the uncorrected proof)

  272. jgc56 says:

    Nancy, what do you believe ‘doesn’t have to happen’? If you’re talking about the injuries these parents believe were caused by vaccines, I’ll ask you the same question I asked david: how has it been factually established that the injuries these parents are atributin got vaccination actually were caused by vaccines?

    And no, no vaccine injured people in my family–no one who suffered encephalopathy or GBS. There are a few family and friends who have autism spectrum disorders, but as ASD’s aren’t caused by vaccines that ins’t the same thing at all.

  273. jgc56 says:

    Typo: attributing to vaccination. But I’m sure you got the meaning

  274. Gray Falcon says:

    “Nancy” seems to be under the impression that anyone who’s really dealt with autistic children will think they’re all horrible shells of human beings. Here’s a parent of an autistic child who is nothing like that, though:
    http://emmashopebook.com/2014/08/07/the-seduction-of-recovery/

    My guess, she simply looks at the children, and is unable to see them as anything but broken.

  275. David says:

    G.F.,
    I looked at your link written by an autism mother who has given up. It’s certainly a very hard path to have to raise an autistic child, and I would not judge this mother, but many parents feel the struggle to recover them is worth it. The author of Emma’s Hope Book thinks she should just accept her daughter’s condition the way it is, including the severe GI pain that is so often a part of the autistic condition. She thinks that letter boards are a better way to go to allow autistic people to communicate, but that presupposes that these children are able to learn to use words and language to communicate in writing if not in words. Most of them are not able to learn to do this. She says the GI pain has gotten better just as part of natural maturation. I’m not sure if she’s saying to just accept the years of screaming in agony as just a natural part of the child’s condition without doing anything to try to relieve the pain. Personally, I think it’s better to take a much more proactive stance: she mentioned many alternative treatments which have improved the condition of many autistic children, but dismisses them as not worth trying. To each his own, I guess. I feel sorry for her daughter, though.

  276. Gray Falcon says:

    “David”, face it. I provided evidence that autism isn’t the horror you claim it is. You have no choice but to accept it.

  277. David says:

    GF,

    You have not. The mother who wrote the blog described her child’s suffering from autism-related GI disease. She tried the gluten-free diet, and it helped, but the child would not eat acceptable food and so she had to stop it. My autistic child also had his GI problems disappear thanks to the grain-free (not just gluten-free) diet, and loved the food we gave him, so it was win-win. The author of the blog should not try to discourage other parents from trying the treatments that have worked for so many: you need to do something, you need to have hope, and the special diet has helped thousands.

    The author of the blog did not say that autism could not be horrible, she just said that she had decided not to struggle against it and just accept it. Her choice. Autism is a spectrum, ranging from the mild (maybe just aloofness and self-centeredness) to the pits of hell, screaming in pain, beating heads against the wall, in diapers for life, no ability to speak or communicate, just stimming for hours on end. You might be able to take such a child in stride and say it’s no problem, everything’s great like that, but most people would not and would say it’s horrible. It’s vaccine brain damage, and, as Nancy said, it doesn’t have to happen.

  278. Lawrence says:

    @David – since “brain damage” is extremely easy to see on MRIs, I would expect that you’ll provide the relevant evidence / studies that show “brain damage” in people with autism, right?

  279. Lawrence says:

    @David – more importantly, you will be able to provide a plausible, biological process by which a vaccine, which contains only trace amounts of ingredients, could have such a “dramatic” effect on the human brain…..right?

  280. Gray Falcon says:

    David, what evidence have you ever given us?

  281. jgc56 says:

    For david:

    “And jgc, hundreds of mothers have put up videos or photos of their children before and after the vaccine that caused them to regress into autism, happy, laughing, smiling, talking before, and somber, unsmiling, the light gone out of their souls after the vaccine which caused their autism.”

    Numbers are irrelevant david: the plural of anecdotal isn’t data, and something more than a collection of anecdotal accounts is needed to factually establish the existence of a causal association between routine vaccination and autism spectrum disorders.

    “Of course you can say that it’s all lies, in reality none of them regressed into autism, that all the boys who regressed into autism after the MMR did not really regress into autism, what?“

    I’m saying simply that the parents are wrong to attribute their child’s autism to routine vaccination on no basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy.

  282. jgc56 says:

    ‘plural of anecdote’, not ‘plural of anecdotal’. damn you autocorrect!

  283. jgc56 says:

    A question for yo,u david

    In addition to all those parents insisting vaccines caused their chidlren to regress into autism, thre are equally hundreds of people offering anecdtoal accounts, posting videos, etc., claiming to have been abducted by extraterrestrials and subjected to medical experiments (which appear to include an almost de rigeur sigmoidoscopy).

    Do you accept these accounts as evidence that extraterrestrials exist, kidnap humans in significant numbers, with the intent of subjecting them to anal probing?

    If not, please explain the rational basis by which you pick and choose which collections of anecdotal accounts you’ll accept and which you’ll reject as ‘proof’ of the claims made therein.

  284. David says:

    So what you’re saying is that even though literally tens of thousands of parents have described having seen our children develop autism and bowel disease immediately or shortly after vaccination, as long as pharma-captured scientists do not agree that their products causeed it, then you also do not agree that vaccines cause autism. Scientists working outside of the pharma sphere agree that they do cause autism and many other conditions.

  285. novalox says:

    @david

    [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 pots, or we can assume that you have been lying to us the entire time, and that we can treat all of your posts as such.

    Your views go against established science and basic biology and medicine, so it is up to you to show proof of your assertions, although based on your fact-free rants and pseudoscience, I highly doubt that you can do so.

    And considering that you continuously refuse to answer the questions of jgc56, Lawrence, and GF, I am inclined to believe that you don’t have any reality backing up your beliefs.

  286. Gray Falcon says:

    David, where are these “tens of thousands of parents”? Historically, hundreds of thousands of parents claimed that the “fair folk” carried off their children and replaced them with changelings. Why should that not be taken just as seriously?

  287. Lawrence says:

    @David – “tens of thousands?” we only ever see a handful of people who post on notorious anti-vaccine websites.

    Also, why aren’t these individuals uncovered when large-scale epidemiological studies are done?

    And since you claim to be part of that group, you’ll have no problem supplying us with your VAERS report and let us know how your case with the Vaccine Court went, right?

  288. David says:

    GF,
    Your source for the changeling figures would be? (I thought so.)

  289. Gray Falcon says:

    Here you go, David:
    http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/britchange.html

    Now, why haven’t you given us any sources?

  290. Lawrence says:

    Also, David refuses to answer our questions….

  291. Gray Falcon says:

    Lawrence, I suspect David thinks his ideas are so obvious and self-evident that he feels no need to provide evidence, that anyone with just a bit of common sense will know he’s right. The fact that much of the history of science consists of proving “obvious and self-evident” statements wrong does not seem to occur to him. For example, Aristotle’s “Physics” was accepted as scientific fact for centuries, until Galileo actually bothered to test it out and discovered numerous basic errors.

  292. novalox says:

    @david

    Strike 1

  293. David says:

    GF,
    So what you’re saying is that there were legends of fairies stealing babies, and leaving their own sickly babies in their place, and you take that as scientific proof that there were only ever the original babies, who developed autism. I looked at your link, entitled “Changeling Legends from the British Isles,” and read several of them. Could you provide the part which provided proof of “hundreds of thousands”? I saw nothing giving that figure, but I admit that they were so boring that I didn’t read them carefully. The LEGEND at the top said that a couple were making moonshine whiskey when the baby gave one cry. The mother blessed it and went back to what she was doing. When a couple of unidentified people took the whiskey down the road they found a baby lying on the side of the road, recognized it as that of their friend. They said the real baby had been stolen and a stock (stick) had been left in its place. That part of the events had not been mentioned until that point. They gave the healthy baby back to their friends and everyone was happy. I glanced at several more, but they were all primitive nonsense. One had a thirteen or fourteen year old boy who suddently became sckly and was thought to be a changeling. One had the mother put eggshells all around the baby, and, if he spoke, that proved he was a changeling, and she should just go put him on the dung heap and leave him until she could hear his voice no more and he ahd died. One “changeling” said that he was five hundred years old.

    You are right about one thing. The truth is obvious, and what you’re doing is pretty silly.

  294. Anon Unheard says:

    I hate to take novalox’s place, but there’s Strike # 2, David.

  295. Gray Falcon says:

    David: Are you suggesting we simply dismiss what parents say as false?

    It was once thought obvious that heavier objects always fell faster than lighter ones. Some simple tests by Galileo proved the notion quite wrong.

  296. Gray Falcon says:

    Fascinating that David made no attempt whatsoever into debating our serious points, and spent all that time and effort on my changeling legends. It’s like challenging the world’s greatest swordsman to a duel, and spending the whole time trying to stab his shadow.

  297. jgc56 says:

    “So what you’re saying is that even though literally tens of thousands of parents have described having seen our children develop autism and bowel disease immediately or shortly after vaccination, as long as pharma-captured scientists do not agree that their products causeed it, then you also do not agree that vaccines cause autism.”

    No, that’s not what I’m saying at all—and if you’re an honest man you’ll admit that that is the case.

    What I’m saying is that none of those parents have demonstrated that the injuries they believe their children suffered as a result of vaccination actually was caused by the vaccines their children received– their argument is founded on no basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy—and that the possibility of a causal association between vaccination and autism spectrum disorders has been extensively considered, with multiple very large epidemiologic studies performed by multiple independent researchers and public health agencies in multiple nations over a period of more than a decade, all without finding any hint of evidence supporting such an association and that the currently available body of evidence supports no conclusion other than these parents are mistaken.

    Now can we get back to the questions I asked you, David?

    Do you accept the anecdotal accounts of people claiming to be abductees as evidence that extraterrestrials exist, kidnap humans in significant numbers, with the intent of subjecting them to anal probing?

    If not, can you explain the rational basis by which you pick and choose which collections of anecdotal accounts you accept, and which you reject, as ‘proof’ of the claims made by those offering them?

  298. […] NOVA Film “Vaccines-Calling the Shots” Opens the Door for Dialogue […]

  299. Lawrence says:

    Well, are far as dialogue is concerned – here is one more reason the anti-vaxxers will be losing their minds:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4128611/

    The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article [1] as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings. We apologise to all affected parties for the inconvenience caused.

    So, please, no more trying to pass off this “now retracted” study as anything other than the bunk it has proved to be.

    Score another one for the good guys.

  300. Dina says:

    Yeah, another example of how the CDC works overtime to conceal the truth. Did you see this one?:
    http://vimeo.com/user5503203/review/108522744/186711a23b

  301. Chris says:

    Dina, have you seen this:
    http://retractionwatch.com/2014/10/04/journal-makes-it-official-retracting-controversial-autism-vaccine-paper/

    Is there any reason why we would care what Andrew Wakefield says?

  302. jgc56 says:

    No, Dina, I admit I did not. Then again, Vimeo or youtube video’s aren’t the forum in which working scientists present their evidence, and state (and whre necessary defend) the conclusions drawn from it. That would instead be first and second-tier peer-reviewed scientific journals, so I have to wonder why you think I should have seen ‘that one’…

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