Home > Expert Insights, Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases > Asking Before They Play: Are Your Child’s Friends Vaccinated?

Asking Before They Play: Are Your Child’s Friends Vaccinated?

In the first part of this series, Ask Before They Play to Keep Chickenpox, Pertussis and Measles Away, Dr. Zibners explores why a parent might be concerned if their vaccinated child has unvaccinated playmates.  Today, she offers suggestions on how to pose the question to other parents. DrZibners

Part Two: Posing the Question

By Dr. Lara Zibners

As kids get older, they naturally start wanting to go play at other people’s homes. As parents, we should encourage this developing independence, shouldn’t we? Not to mention the few hours of freedom we can selfishly steal from the arrangement. Yet it’s a little scary, watching them walk into another house. Another environment. Another set of rules. How do you know it’s as safe as the one you’ve created in your own home?

The answer is that you can’t always be certain. The other parents might be more relaxed about some things, more uptight about others. I, for one, am fully aware that my “two ice cream bars each and that’s it, people!” is a bit liberal for many of our friends. Then again, the way I freak out, hysterically screeching when I see a latex balloons being brought into our home…perhaps others view that reaction as inappropriate. But from my standpoint, I’ve never cared for– let alone heard of– a child who was killed by an ice cream sandwich. The latex balloon? Right. Number one non-food related fatal choking hazard. The point is we all have our priorities when it comes to the safety of our kids.

Photo credit: M. Danys

Photo credit: M. Danys

As a parent, when you decide that it is a priority to limit your child’s contact with unvaccinated children, that’s absolutely within your right. Please know that you aren’t alone if you are nervous or worried about upsetting or offending another family by asking about vaccine status. But it’s important and simply has to be done.

But what do you actually do? How do you ask? Blurt it out? Casually drop a line into the conversation? Tell a hilarious story about the last time little Bobby went for his routine immunizations and watch the reaction? It can be awkward. Especially if you haven’t given it some thought.

But it’s something you really need to think about. It’s fine to decide in your mind that you don’t want unvaccinated children putting your own at risk. However, it’s another thing to put those feelings into words. As an example, the Ask campaign has done a great job of raising awareness about the dangers of unsecured guns in homes with children and encourages parents to inquire about the presence of firearms in the homes where their children play.  Why can’t vaccine status be a similar conversation we have with other parents?

As a pediatrician I have the luxury of being completely obvious. “Oh do you work?” they ask. “Yes, I’m an ER pediatrician by day but I do a lot of writing, especially pro-vaccination pieces.” That sort of makes my position on the matter clear, doesn’t it? To my relief, most parents I speak to respond positively, even asking if they can call or email me questions. It has taught me that a lot of parents who are hesitant to vaccinate shouldn’t be tossed into the same bucket with the extreme anti-vaccine groups. These parents are just uncertain. Knowing that I vaccinate my kids and feeling free to ask me questions about the flu shot or the autism non-issue makes them feel better. So if I think about it that way, even though I may be risking my kids’ friendship with another child, I might actually be increasing the number of vaccinated children at their school. Which in turn makes me feel a whole lot less hesitant about bringing the topic up in the first place.

Of course, if you don’t have an opening line as slickly planned as mine, you will need to create one that works for you. It’s important that as a parent you feel comfortable in the way in which you approach the conversation, and the decisions you make about protecting your child. Having an open and honest conversation with another parent is certainly more responsible than breaking into the school office and going through the files, right?

So here’s my advice. If you feel passionate about immunizations and don’t want your kids in homes that are unvaccinated, you have to ask.  Now if you are bold, go ahead and just blurt it out.

“Yo! Your kid got his shots?” (Obviously this won’t work for everyone.)

or

“I know you may not be comfortable asking, so just to let you know, my kids are fully vaccinated because I do everything possible to protect them from disease.  I sure hope yours are too.”

If you prefer to be more subtle you may consider bringing the topic up in a more casual conversation before you arrange a playdate.  By discussing vaccines indirectly you will not only get a feel for the other family’s approach to immunization, you might actually open a conversational door and find a way to dispel some myths and misunderstandings about vaccination.

Here are a few suggestions:

We’d love to have a play date sometime. Just let me check the calendar because my daughter is scheduled to get some immunizations soon and I wouldn’t want her to miss those!

We’re so excited to have you see the new baby! Of course I’m a Nervous Nelly until he can have his shots, so we’ve been asking everyone we come in contact with if they’re up to date on their immunizations. I’m sure you understand. We’d do anything to keep our baby healthy.

I’m not sure if you’ve seen the news, but there have been outbreaks of [insert vaccine preventable disease here] in our area. Do you know if your kids have been exposed or need boosters?

I have a friend/family member who is undergoing cancer treatment right now and is especially susceptible to illness.  I was wondering, are your kids vaccinated and up to date on their boosters? Exposing them to any possibility of disease could be devastating right now, and with everything else they’re battling, I promised to do what I could to help.

I come in contact with lots of children/elderly through my job/volunteer work, and I would feel terrible if I exposed them to any unnecessary illness. While this may sound strange, I feel it would be irresponsible of me not to ask.  Have you or your kids been sick recently and are you all up-to-date on your vaccines? You can never be too careful.  Especially when it comes to infectious diseases.

Typically, by posing the question in a conversational way the response you get will help you gauge the other person’s opinion of vaccines. Of course we all hope the responses will be “Yes! Absolutely! Our kids are vaccinated!” but obviously sometimes that won’t be the case.

What do you do then?

Check back next week for the final post in this series when I will address how you can respond when the answer might not be what you’re expecting.

In the meantime, please add your own suggestions on how to pose the question in the comments below.  Let us know what success or challenges you’ve had in asking other parents about the vaccination status of their kids. And ask others to do the same so that we can share our collective experiences here and generate a helpful resource for all parents who share our concerns.

Dr. Lara Zibners is board certified in both general pediatrics and pediatric emergency medicine.  As the author of the award-winning book “If Your Kid Eats This Book, Everything Will Still Be Okay,” and a hilarious blog, Dr. Zibners has been an avid and very public supporter of vaccination.
  1. Amy pisani
    July 17, 2014 at 12:55 pm

    Here’s one… Did you hear that Jenny McCarthy was fired from The View? She’s done a lot of damage by spreading misinformation about vaccines and autism, don’t you agree ?

    Like

  2. Amy pisani
    July 17, 2014 at 12:57 pm

    Did you see “fill in the blank” in the news this week? It’s unbelievable that vaccine preventable diseases are on the rise. I’d be so scared if my kids weren’t fully vaccinated, wouldn’t you?

    Like

  3. Bob
    July 17, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    If they worked which they don’t – then you would have no need for alarm because the poison is doing it’s job.

    Like

  4. reissd
    July 17, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    “If they worked which they don’t – then you would have no need for alarm because the poison is doing it’s job.” While childhood vaccines are very effective – 70-99% – that is not 100%, and if my child is in the small percentage that suffers vaccine failure, I would rather he not contract a disease because someone chose to leave their children with zero protection, at high risk of preventable diseases, however sincerely they believe in the anti-vaccine misinformation.

    For example, vaccines are not poisons.

    Other parents may also be concerned about newborns or infants not completely vaccinated or children with medical conditions that prevent vaccination as well.

    Like

  5. novalox
    July 17, 2014 at 3:11 pm

    @bob

    [citation needed] for your assertions, since it flies in the face of actual science.

    Like

  6. Chris
    July 17, 2014 at 5:20 pm

    Bob: “If they worked which they don’t…”

    Prove it by explaining what caused the incidence of measles in the USA to drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Provide actual verifiable scientific citation to support your answer, but do not mention deaths, any other country nor any other decade. The following is the US Census data showing incidence of measles during most of the twentieth century:
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

    Like

  7. July 18, 2014 at 1:23 am

    Oh man, Bob! You just got SCHOOLED! lmao…

    Like

  8. July 18, 2014 at 3:41 am

    Love your suggestions Amy! Especially the Jenny McCarthy one. Wish I’d thought of that! Doh.

    Like

  9. JGC56
    July 18, 2014 at 3:13 pm

    To follow on to the demographics regarding measles incidence:

    If vaccines don’t work, how was the global eradication of small-pox acheived?

    What caused the incidence of polio dropped more than 99 percent since the launch of global polio eradication efforts in 1988?

    Why has diptheria been widely eradicated in developed nations which vaccinate against it?

    Why, following the introduction of efective rotavirus vaccines, have rotavirus-related hospitalizations in the US fallen by approximately 86 percent since 2006?

    Any answers, bob?

    Like

  10. Jess
    July 18, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    I guess I am just bold. When meeting new parents/kids, like at my children’s soccer practice I went to every parent my kids came in contact with and said “Are your kids vaccinated? I have a baby at home is is not old enough for all his shots and wouldn’t want one kid that is not UTD near us.” Honestly I could care less if someone gets offended, it is my kids I care about not petty feelings.

    Like

  11. Chris
    July 19, 2014 at 12:08 am

    Thank you Jess!

    A couple of decades ago I was with my then toddler son at an indoor playcenter when I saw a news article that there was going to be an improved vaccine for pertussis (essentially the DTaP replacing the DTP). Someone, like you I suspect, piped up and said that pertussis is deadly to babies.

    I then explained that my son had had seizures and could only get the DT, so I was hoping he could get the new pertussis vaccine. Then she looked at me and said, “Okay, I see how it is very important.” I think (memory fading) I thanked her.

    So yay! Yay to both of you speaking up!

    Liked by 1 person

  12. July 21, 2014 at 10:40 am

    I don’t care who asks me, I’ll say honestly that my boys and I are completely unvaccinated and my husband is not up to date, and then they can do what they want with the info. My kids are none of your business and your kids are none of my business.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Chris
    July 21, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    I am glad you are honest that we need to avoid your family. And when your kids are in school you will not complain when they are asked to stay home if there is an outbreak of pertussis or chicken pox.

    Like

  14. Chris
    July 21, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    I forgot: Pinkbedah, please remember to thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate their families. They are protecting your kids by bolstering your community’s immunity to measles, pertussis, mumps, Hib, rotavirus, etc.

    Like

  15. Chris
    July 21, 2014 at 12:47 pm

    Also, apologies for botching up typing your username,

    Like

  16. JGC56
    July 21, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    Why aren’t your boys vaccinated, pinkbekah? The risks associated with vaccination are orders of magnitude less that the risks of remaining vulnerable to disease? Is it just you don’t care that they are at increased risk of serious illness?

    Like

  17. Laura Condon
    July 21, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    I can’t tell you how excited I am that you are finally encouraging parents to talk about their vaccine decisions. Let the learning begin!

    Like

  18. Cindy
    July 22, 2014 at 12:10 pm

    Personally I think asking about vaccination status is a great idea because the last thing I want is to be around a child who has just been vaccinated with a live-virus flu vaccine, which has shown in clinical studies to shed for 21 days and possibly longer.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 12:17 pm

    It’s a little ironic to worry about the weakened – attenuated – flu vaccine virus while leaving your children exposed to the virulent wild virus.

    While you’re right that the flu virus can shed, as far as I know it has never transmitted severe flu. The concern should be not whether the weakened virus can shed, but whether it can actually make someone sick. You are welcome to show otherwise if you have credible evidence the vaccine ever transmitted severe flu. Until then, your unvaccinated child – much more likely to carry the wild virus – is more at risk herself or himself from influenza and much more likely to transmit it to others.

    Like

  20. nancy
    July 22, 2014 at 12:20 pm

    I would ask too BUT just the opposite. “your kids got their shots just last yesterday!?!?”, whoa, let’s make a playdate in about six weeks when your diseased kid is all better 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Sarah
    July 22, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    I imagine that it would be really exhausting to be scared of everyone that comes in contact with you or your children. You should probably be asking adults if they are UTD as well since many of the 40+ age group have not received a booster shot in decades and are essentially unvaccinated against many of the diseases that you fear.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    nancy: “, whoa, let’s make a playdate in about six weeks when your diseased kid is all better”

    Please explain with verifiable scientific documentation how a vaccinated child is diseased for six weeks, and reasons why they should be avoided. Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support your statement.

    Like

  23. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    Another reference to shedding, that shows, again, misunderstanding of vaccines. Most vaccines are not live vaccines. Even for the few that are attenuated live viruses, most don’t transmit the disease – for example, MMR doesn’t. Even for the few that do shed, again: it’s very inconsistent to express concern about the weakened vaccine virus when you consciously choose to leave a child at risk of the virulent wild virus, which is much more likely to harm them – and much more likely to infect others.

    Like

  24. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 12:25 pm

    Agree with Pink. My children are unvaccinated and attend preschool and daycare as well. My unvaccinated children will be sitting beside yours in a school, they both have their exemptions and can attend public/private schools. My children as more likely to contracted an illness from vaccinated children, then vice versa.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Kaye
    July 22, 2014 at 12:25 pm

    Well, we, as non-vaccinated adults and their future children can lie. It isn’t that hard to get around ignorant people who won’t look at both sides of an issue.
    Yes, the current vaccine schedule is more toxic than good. Vaccines in themselves, are not bad. They are over used. I have had ZERO vaccines, and I have yet to even get chicken pox. I may have been exposed to whooping cough over the winter. Did I get it? No. Would it MATTER if I got it? No. Because it is easily treatable by antibiotics,and isn’t dangerous in adults and older children.
    Polio, though, that I support a vaccine for. And tetanus. Though I wasn’t vaccinated against these things, my children will be.
    Some people who choose to not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate are making an informed decision, and would rather take the small risk of not vaccinating against the milder illnesses of measles,chicken pox,whooping cough, etc. Than taking the risk of getting the vaccine.
    Besides, vaccines shed. It all honesty, your vaccinated kid is more of a danger to me and any other unvaccinated person than I am to you. Because I have nothing in my body…. I am not carrying anything. I know my immune system- if I was carrying it, I would be ill. Ans so would my unvaccinated brother and my parents, whose vaccines wore off years ago 😛
    ITS NOT BLACK AND WHITE,PEOPLE!!!!!

    Like

  26. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:27 pm

    Sarah: “I imagine that it would be really exhausting to be scared of everyone that comes in contact with you or your children.”

    Actually, that is why I asked since my baby was vulnerable to a severe disease. Fortunately most parents are responsible in regards to vaccines, and the others are not worth bothering with. Especially those who compare whatever a “UTD” is with airborne transmitted diseases like pertussis, measles, mumps etc that cause real harm in children.

    Like

  27. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    Kaye: ” milder illnesses of measles,chicken pox,whooping cough, etc.”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that MMR is more dangerous than measles, which causes encephalitis in about one out of thousand cases. Until you prove that one bit of info in your comment, we will assume you really do not understand the issues, and should be ignored.

    Kaye, BMS, nancy, Sarah and the others who are flooding this comment thread, please remember to thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate their families. They are protecting your children by bolstering your community’s immunity to diseases that cause real harm.

    Like

  28. July 22, 2014 at 12:33 pm

    Actually, a child vaccinated with a flu vaccine CAN carry the wild virulent virus–because many times the vaccine is made for the wrong flu virus.

    Like

  29. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    Ms. Johnson, where is the citation to support your statement? Do you have a better way to avoid influenza?

    Like

  30. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    “Actually, a child vaccinated with a flu vaccine CAN carry the wild virulent virus–because many times the vaccine is made for the wrong flu virus.”

    The vaccinated child would not, in that case, be any more likely to have it than an unvaccinated child – in fact, less likely. That’s not the shedding the commentator above spoke of.

    Like

  31. July 22, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    Chris-have you read all the vaccine inserts before you vaccinate. Encephalitis is an adverse reaction to many vaccines.

    Like

  32. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    ” My children are unvaccinated and attend preschool and daycare as well. My unvaccinated children will be sitting beside yours in a school, they both have their exemptions and can attend public/private schools. My children as more likely to contracted an illness from vaccinated children, then vice versa.”

    The evidence is pretty comprehensive that unvaccinated children are at much higher risk of vaccine preventable disease: http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf. So your statement is simply incorrect. Your unvaccinated children are at much higher risk of getting – and transmitting – a preventable disease. Hopefully, the fact that most people vaccinate before sending their children to school will protect your children, too. I am happy and proud that, by protecting myself and my family, I am protecting children whose parents chose to leave exposed because of incorrect information from the type provided by the anti-vaccine commentators here.

    Like

  33. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:42 pm

    Vaccine inserts are written by lawyers, and are not verifiable scientific citations. Also encephalitis is a reaction to many diseases. Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that the MMR or influenza vaccines cause more encephalitis than measles and influenza. Something like The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review.

    Like

  34. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 12:43 pm

    “Chris-have you read all the vaccine inserts before you vaccinate. Encephalitis is an adverse reaction to many vaccines.” It might be a good idea to understand vaccine inserts before reading them. Inserts are legal documents, prepared by lawyers. The adverse reactions section there – as it usually says – contains events reported after vaccine, whether or not caused by it. For example, some inserts mention car accidents there. Here is a useful discussion of inserts: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/

    Like

  35. July 22, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    I find it amusing that the AV parents tout their child’s “robust” immune system and don’t fear virulent disease, but that same ‘robust’ system is ‘delicate’ against a weakened vaccine pathogen.

    Logic – it sure isn’t their strong suit.

    Like

  36. nancy
    July 22, 2014 at 12:48 pm

    I don’t have to provide or prove anything to you Chris. The information is readily available to those who want to find it. Start with your very own CDC website. Furthermore, my dad’s oncologist specifically told him to stay away from his grandchild for at least 21 days AFTER my child received vaccines BECAUSE he could possibly get sick from my kid because of his weakened immune system from chemotherapy. Fortunately, I made my decision to not vaccinate my child long before that discussion with his oncologist took place so my dad didn’t have to lose any valuable time with his grandchild.

    Moreover, I could turn around and call you irresponsible as well but I won’t because I understand that you are doing what you think is right for your kids. I’m doing what I think is right for mine. Just like I breastfed, feed 100% organic home prepared meals, supplement with things like fermented cod liver oil and probiotics and provide daily raw juices to my child. This is what I think is right for my kid while others thinks it’s perfectly ok to feed McCrap everyday, that’s their right.

    Lastly, the last time I was administered any shots was about 16 years ago when my parents took me in for the new Hep B shot so I guess according to you, I’m also a threat to your kids because I have no intention of ever getting another shot again in my life. So deal with it! If the world is too scary for you, stay home or wear a hazmat suit in public.

    Like

  37. July 22, 2014 at 12:49 pm

    So people have proven in court to have been injured by vaccines and billions of dollars have been paid out to injured people. I think people should have a right to decide or themselves and their children weather they take a chance of vaccines or take a chance of disease. I am not going to convince you of my choice and you will not convince me of yours.

    Like

  38. Cindy
    July 22, 2014 at 12:55 pm

    Here is the CDC itself admitting that live-virus flu vaccine can transmit infection. It may be “rare” but it can, and does, happen– I would guess probably much more often than reported because nobody I know ever thinks to accuse recently vaccinated kids of spreading it around. Quote from this article: “Data indicate that both children and adults vaccinated with LAIV can shed vaccine viruses after vaccination … One study of 197 children aged 8 through 36 months in a child care center assessed transmissibility of vaccine viruses from 98 vaccinated children to the 99 unvaccinated children; 80% of vaccine recipients shed one or more virus strains.” http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6207a1.htm?s_cid=rr6207a1_w#AvailableLAIV .The vaccine package inserts also warn that vaccinated individuals can shed. And, btw, there is now a confirmed case of a measles-vaccinated person transmitting the disease to an unvaccinated person. Read the news. I was a gung-ho vaccinating mom once, too. And I was first in line to get my flu shot… until my last flu shot, gotten in combination with tetanus & pneumonia, nearly killed me. I had influenza A in 1995–diagnosed in a hospital ER–and I wasn’t a tenth as sick as I was after my last–and I mean LAST vaccines. My allergist said I must be “one of those people” who can’t take vaccines. My rheumatologist admitted that my lingering arthralgia after those shots was “most likely” due to the vaccines.

    Like

  39. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:56 pm

    Nancy: “I don’t have to provide or prove anything to you Chris. The information is readily available to those who want to find it.”

    You made a claim, then you need to provide the evidence for that claim. You are using the lazy and very silly excuse that anyone can find the information. And yes it is available at Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, and it confirms that you are wrong.

    Ms. Johnson: “So people have proven in court to have been injured by vaccines and billions of dollars have been paid out to injured people.”

    And how many compared to the number of vaccine doses given out. That information is actually available: National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) Adjudication Categories by Vaccine for Claims Filed Calendar Year 2006 to Present – March 5, 2014. Hmmm, Out of 1,968,399,297 vaccine doses, only 1300 have been compensated. That is less than one in a million!

    So, again, Ms. Johnson, where is the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease?

    Like

  40. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    Cindy, where is the link to the study? Just post the PubMed Identification Number. And, again, package inserts do not count.

    Like

  41. DBNWY
    July 22, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    The difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated children is often uneducated vs. educated parents. Get a group of unvaccinated parents together for a conversation about vaccines: Ingredients, side effect, VAERS, Poul Thorsen, NCVIA, injuries, health conferences, autism hearings. Conversation with vaccinating parents: My doctors told me to, and your child is spreading vaccine preventable disease. I think more parents would question vaccines if in fact it was revealed who’s not vaccinating. In my experience when asked about vaccines it opens the doors to be schooled so I encourage all parents to ask more questions. My niece died hours after her vaccines. Our family, friends, and doctors have since become aware of the dangers and how common it is. Until people educate themselves of the true dangers, they will find out the hard way like we did.

    Like

  42. July 22, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    Kaye, you largely avoid getting sick from vaccine-preventable diseases because others vaccinate for you. Also, measles carries a roughly one in three risk of side effects and you can indeed carry an illness without getting sick from it. You are behaving irresponsibly. You are only free from the effects of such behavior because others, thankfully, do not share in your deliberate delusions.

    Like

  43. July 22, 2014 at 1:04 pm

    Let me know when they do a health study of unvaccinated vrs vaccinated people and compare diabetes, cancer, autoimmune diseases (crohns, ms ect…) asthma…etc–you get the point.
    yeah……like that would ever happen.

    Have I convinced you yet? You haven’t convinced me either. 😀

    Like

  44. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:05 pm

    Ah, I see it the results buried in an MMWR. It actually says the vaccine is mostly effective. And you ignored this sentence: “However, serious illnesses have not been reported among unvaccinated persons who have been infected inadvertently with vaccine viruses.”

    So, again, where is the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that the influenza vaccine is worse than the disease?

    Like

  45. July 22, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    DBNWY–I am so sorry or your loss. 😦

    Like

  46. Cindy
  47. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    Ms. Johnson and DBNWY, you might be interested in this list of studies, some being financed by SafeMinds and Autism Speaks:
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/07/17/more-of-that-vaccineautism-research-that-doesnt-exist/

    Again, where are thosePubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that the influenza vaccine is worse than the disease?

    Like

  48. Cindy
    July 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm

    Chris don’t put words in my mouth. I never said it was “worse.” I said it was possible. And it is.

    Like

  49. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm

    Cindy, that was one person, which is why it was reported. With two MMR vaccines there is 99% chance of immunity, that still leaves about one a hundred who can still get measles. Hence the importance of community immunity.

    Like

  50. July 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm

    This has been a paid advertisement of MERCK……..

    Like

  51. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    Cindy, I am asking a question about relative risk. It was not putting words in your mouth, it was asking you to provide actual evidence.

    Like

  52. Cindy
    July 22, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    Chris, read the study, which you demanded I supply. This individual WAS vaccinated twice. Plus, mea culpa, they didn’t infect one person. They infected four.

    Like

  53. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:11 pm

    Ms. Johnson, so are being paid by big hospital supply? The ones who want to see kids get sick and require hospital treatment.

    We will assume that you profit by sick children until you provide the PubMed indexed studies showing any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases.

    Like

  54. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 1:12 pm

    Cindy, I read both links and they both only really point the importance of maintaining community immunity. That we need anyone who can be vaccinated up to date on vaccines to protect those that cannot get vaccines and the others where the vaccines do not work.

    Like

  55. July 22, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    For some people it does–hence the big payouts in court cases where people have proven they have been injured or a loved one has died.

    Like

  56. July 22, 2014 at 1:15 pm

    So how do we know some people cannot get vaccines (besides those allegic to chicken eggs/exempted from flu shots)

    Like

  57. July 22, 2014 at 1:16 pm

    Did you see on the news today.. Is that how you respond to this article? It’s full of lies and misconceptions. It is also no one business how I raise and care for my children.
    I know for a fact also, that everyone vaccinating and standing up for them as done zero research in to the history of diseases or they won’t make such ignorant comments.
    Go read some real information in regards to the rates, history, ingredients, and even take the time to read an insert and look up the ingredients.
    Vaccine preventable diseases are on the rise? Do you really know why? Do you know the ‘outbreaks’ start from vaccinated children? So tell me who is at risk? People really need to wake up, stop drinking your fluoride filled water and make informed choices about what you put in to your child’s body.. And yours for that matter.
    That said, if a parent is that ignorant to put my kid at risk and has their vax shedding kid at a playground.. They wouldn’t need to ask me anything, I would leave

    Like

  58. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    “For some people it does–hence the big payouts in court cases where people have proven they have been injured or a loved one has died.” It’s true that in a small number of cases people have been compensated for serious vaccine injuries – 3500 in 25 years, a little over 100 a year out of millions of vaccine doses. Nothing is 100% safe, and it’s good that we have a plaintiff-friendly, no-fault program for the rare cases of vaccine injuries.

    It’s also true that the risks of not vaccinating are much higher than those of vaccinating, though. In the 2012-2013 year almost 170 children died from flu alone, the vast majority unvaccinated. That’s died. Thousands were hospitalized. Many more adults died and were hospitalized.

    Not vaccinating is choosing the bigger risk for your child – and for those your child may infect. The least you can do is let people know, so they can keep newborns – and anyone else they choose to – away from the child at higher risk.

    And we have to hope, still, that herd immunity will protect those innocent children left at risk because their parents think they know more than the experts.

    Like

  59. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:25 pm

    “So how do we know some people cannot get vaccines ” There is a list of contraindications on the CDC site.

    Like

  60. July 22, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    I find it very sad to see so many ignorant comments posted here. No need to look for ‘studies’ – you will not find ONE in regards to vax/nonvax. Why? Well that’s another question you should ask yourself.
    As for the herd immunity myth being flung around in comments, do you have a clue there either?
    Here’s a little read for all of you ‘know more then educated parents’ people to read. http://www.livingwhole.org/a-parents-response-to-the-new-york-times-article-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions/
    Don’t take someone’s word for it.. Do your own research. Visit VAERS & keep in mind, those are reports that drs actually did make- many never get there. Read the inserts, read the stories of those effected by vax’ing. If you have stories of nonvax children spread stuff, read that and share it too. Would be interested since most outbreaks are from those vaccinated

    Like

  61. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Chris, My close friends and many co workers and their children are not vaccinated. So I do not need to thank my neighbors for vaccinating. I was actually at a gathering with 15 children over the wkend for a trip, every single child was unvaccinated.

    Like

  62. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    A. Most of the measles cases in the U.S. and Europe are in the unvaccinated, and the outbreaks start from the unvaccinated. While pertussis has higher numbers in absolute numbers, unvaccinated children are 9-23 times more likely to get it. And so on.

    B. Thank you, I’ve done my research. That’s why I vaccinate.

    C. See comments above about shedding. Worrying about the weakened vaccine virus while leaving your child exposed to the virulent wild virus is inconsistent.

    Like

  63. Moose
    July 22, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    Im just curious – to those that think they have any right at all to ask someone about their personal medical info (hint: you dont) are you also willing to ask those who ARE vaccinated and around your children to have their titers checked to make sure they are actually immune? CDC readily admits some vaccines “dont take” for people. Vaccination does NOT = immunization. Never has. Never will. The fact that you think unvaccinated children are the cause for outbreaks is absolutely absurd. I get it – its much easier to just blame all those unvaccinated children as the cause for your child’s illness, instead of realizing their immune systems are so tragically overwhelmed they cant even fight off a common cold.

    Like

  64. BMS
  65. Moose
    July 22, 2014 at 1:31 pm

    PS – most outbreaks were in areas where there was well over 95% compliance. Guess what? The herd is “immune”. It still aint working.

    Like

  66. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:31 pm

    In the original description of herd immunity, the protection to the population at large occurred only if people contracted the infections naturally. The reason for this is that naturally-acquired immunity lasts for a lifetime. The vaccine proponents quickly latched onto this concept and applied it to vaccine-induced immunity. But, there was one major problem – vaccine-induced immunity lasted for only a relatively short period, from 2 to 10 years at most, and then this applies only to humoral immunity. This is why they began, silently, to suggest boosters for most vaccines, even the common childhood infections such as chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella.

    Then they discovered an even greater problem, the boosters were lasting for only 2 years or less. This is why we are now seeing mandates that youth entering colleges have multiple vaccines, even those which they insisted gave lifelong immunity, such as the MMR. The same is being suggested for full-grown adults. Ironically, no one in the media or medical field is asking what is going on. They just accept that it must be done.

    That vaccine-induced herd immunity is mostly myth can be proven quite simply. When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given. What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. In essence, at least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades.

    If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%. Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection. That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations.”

    Like

  67. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    “Im just curious – to those that think they have any right at all to ask someone about their personal medical info (hint: you dont) are you also willing to ask those who ARE vaccinated and around your children to have their titers checked to make sure they are actually immune?”

    Hint: if someone won’t answer questions, I don’t have to let my children play with theirs.

    Modern vaccines aren’t 100% effective, but they offer 70-99% protection – a lot higher than the zero of not vaccinating.

    Like

  68. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:33 pm

    Hint: if someone won’t answer questions, I don’t have to let my children play with theirs.

    What happens when your child is sitting beside them in school? Are you going to ask every child’s parent in the class room if their child is vaccinated?

    Like

  69. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    Two live virus vaccines have been shown to transmit the disease very rarely – rotavirus and chicken pox. And OPV, but that isn’t used. Your case report just showed that can happen. Case reports are published when something is very, very rare – as this kind of shedding is. Note that it’s also between siblings. And again: if you’re willing to leave your child at risk of the wild rotavirus virus, why are you concerned about the weakened vaccine virus?

    Like

  70. July 22, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    If your child is vaccinated and protected, why are you so worried about my child getting your child sick? I thought your child was protected…

    Like

  71. Moose
    July 22, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    Hint: someone could also just say “yes they have their shots” (eyeroll) This entire thread is ridiculous and shame on the pediatrician who thinks people have any right to anyone else’s private medical info.

    Like

  72. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    Herd immunity and outbreaks:

    A. Here again is evidence that unvaccinated are at much higher risk of preventable diseases: http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf

    B. Here again is a list of studies showing herd immunity working from vaccines.

    Here are studies showing pertussis outbreaks are more likely with low vaccination rates:
    Saad B. Omer, et al., Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements: Secular Trends and Association of State Policies With Pertussis Incidence, 296 JAMA 1757(2006).

    Saad B. Omer, et al., Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis, 168 AMERICAN JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY 1389(2008).

    Aamer Imdad, et al., Religious Exemptions for Immunization and Risk of Pertussis in New York State, 2000–2011, PEDIATRICS (2013).

    Like

  73. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    Reissd, Who said I was concerned? My unvaccinated children are in preschool and daycare, I send them among recently vaccinated children. Never once have a stated I was concerned. I just posted that shedding does occur. You assumed I was concerned.

    Like

  74. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    “Hint: if someone won’t answer questions, I don’t have to let my children play with theirs.
    What happens when your child is sitting beside them in school? Are you going to ask every child’s parent in the class room if their child is vaccinated?”

    Luckily, California publishes immunization rates, and I checked my child’s preschool and will check school before sending my child. So it’s very unlikely.

    But if my child gets a disease because someone else did not vaccinate, I will seriously consider suing the negligent parent that made a choice that hurt my child.

    Like

  75. July 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    “PS – most outbreaks were in areas where there was well over 95% compliance. Guess what? The herd is “immune”. It still aint working.”

    This shows a lack of understanding of averages.

    Data from California plainly shows that the majority of whooping cough cases are in areas of low vaccine uptake.

    Like

  76. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    “Hint: someone could also just say “yes they have their shots” (eyeroll) This entire thread is ridiculous and shame on the pediatrician who thinks people have any right to anyone else’s private medical info.”

    I can’t prevent people from lying. I assume, and I hope it’s true for most people, that most people would not lie. If you choose to lie to other parents, that is between you and your conscience.

    Like

  77. Moose
    July 22, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    I could just see it now “Oh you want to have a playdate? Please send your child’s immunization records with a stamp of approval from the pediatrician. We will get back to you”

    Like

  78. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    “If your child is vaccinated and protected, why are you so worried about my child getting your child sick? I thought your child was protected…”
    There are three reasons to worry about your unvaccinated child. First, those too young to vaccinate, like this child, contracting measles as a young baby from an unvaccinated child, who died in agony from a complication. http://justthevax.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/micha-is-dead.html. B. Those with medical conditions that cannot be vaccinated. Like this child, who had a heart transplant at seven months, and cannot get live vaccines. He does not deserve to be infected by an unvaccinated child either. http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/advocating-for-benjamin/. C. Those very few for whom the vaccine fails. To remind you, unvaccinated children are more likely to have the disease and pass it on, and community with low vaccination rates are more likely to have outbreaks (e.g. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf). So it’s true that the primary victims, those most likely to suffer, are the unvaccinated children themselves; but they still put others at risk.

    Like

  79. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    See how far that law suit will get you. Why not sue the person who gave you influenze B? Vaccination rates among school districts do not tell the percentage per classroom. You may think it is unlikely but I will tell you it is more likely than you think.

    Like

  80. July 22, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    More like, “Oh you don’t vaccinate? Sorry – I prefer my child play with children whose parents understand evidence based medicine”

    Like

  81. Me
    July 22, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    I am fully vaccinated and boosted including tDAP boosters, Hep B, Hep A. My kids are fully vaxed and boosted including Gardasil, Menactra, Hep B, Hep A, etc.

    For the first time last year I was forced to get a flu shot for my job as a nurse. It was my first flu shot ever. I had a bad reaction requiring a week of steroids and I missed 3 days of work. Last time I had the actual flu was 10 yrs ago and I also missed 3 days of work. The time before that, ditto.

    I don’t want to repeat my experience this year. I will be shunned, ridiculed and forced to wear a mask for 12 hrs a day, 3 days a week, for three months, except while eating. This mask will also broadcast to anyone in the hospital my medical status as unvaxed for flu, violating my HIPAA rights as a patient. There is no differentiation between me (someone who had a reaction), or my coworker who had Guillain Barre after a flu shot and must mask, or just refusers of all vaccines.

    I am a pro-vaxer, yet I will choose not to get the flu shot again. For this I am labeled an anti-vaxer and people are prejudiced against me and I am unfairly targeted. I hate it.

    Like

  82. Moose
    July 22, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    “But if my child gets a disease because someone else did not vaccinate, I will seriously consider suing the negligent parent that made a choice that hurt my child.”

    Good luck proving that.

    Like

  83. July 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    Thankfully we have this science called epidemiology – and an understanding of the concept of a ‘timeline’ – so we can actually pinpoint patient zero for outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases.

    Like

  84. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    Riessd, Also what happens when your child spreads a VPD to an unvaccinted child? Like pertussis? Can I then sue you?

    Like

  85. July 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    reissd, it’s sarcasm. My children cannot be vaccinated due to medical conditions. 11, 8, and 1 – all have yet to even get the flu. I’m not a doctor or a scientist, but I would say that they’re not suffering due to the lack of their vaccinations.

    Like

  86. July 22, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    Tara your children are also protected by the herd – everyone else who vaccinates. They’re part of the reason why everyone who can vaccinate should vaccinate – to protect those who can’t be protected by the vaccine.

    Like

  87. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    Here is a discussion of the law suit addressing many of your concerns: https://shotofprevention.com/2013/09/12/legal-responsibilities-in-choosing-not-to-vaccinate/.

    Short version:
    A. It’s feasible.
    B. In some cases it won’t be possible to prove causation, in other it will be.
    C. A parent who suffered vaccine failure took the precaution, and is not at fault: no negligence. Just like there’s a difference between the person whose brakes failed due to mechanical failure and the one whose brakes failed because of negligent maintenance.

    Like

  88. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    Tara, I hope herd immunity continues to protect your vulnerable children.

    Like

  89. July 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm

    No, they’re protected because they have real immune systems and kept in smaller schools and live in the country, which means that they’re not interacting with people as often as inner-city children. Most of our friend’s children are also unvaccinated.

    Like

  90. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    @Tara – my concern is that your unvaccinated children will be the catalyst for a disease outbreak in a vulnerable population…..so heaven-forbid that we’re concerned about the public at large…..and the number of anti-vax lies that have appeared in this thread is staggering.

    Like

  91. July 22, 2014 at 1:50 pm

    My concern is my children dying because they have medical conditions that do not allow them to be given vaccinations. My concern trumps your concern.

    Like

  92. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    Chris, just curious, have you heard of VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System)? I hadn’t either before I started doing my own research into the topic. The adverse effects listed in the vaccine inserts (which, btw, not one pediatrician I know of has ever offered to show one or discuss the side effects listed with a parent) come from this reporting system, from adverse reaction that actually happened and were reported, not from lawyers.

    The best possible defense against all illnesses (especially these benign childhood ones that the US vaccinates against) is your body’s natural ability to fight them off, i.e. your immune system. For example, the chicken pox…ever have it? I did, and so did every single other person I knew. We all survived, no harm done except for maybe a scar or two. Did you ever get it again? Know why? Because your natural immune system did it’s job and created an immunity to it.

    Like

  93. July 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    “Real immune systems” as opposed to what? Vaccines trigger an immune response, but with less danger than the ‘real’ pathogen.

    The danger of encephalitis from the MMR is 1 in 1,000,000. The danger of encephalitis from the measles is 1 in 1000. Prior to the introduction of the vaccine, there were 500,000 cases of measles per year.

    Your risk analysis is seriously flawed.

    Like

  94. Liza
    July 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    This is the most asinine question I have ever heard. Please.

    Like

  95. July 22, 2014 at 1:53 pm

    Tara – no one advocates for children who are contraindicated to vaccinations to receive them.

    Again – we advocate that everyone who CAN be vaccinated, get vaccinated. It helps protect kids like YOURS.

    Like

  96. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 1:53 pm

    Why do anti-vax idiots think that strong immune systems keep people from getting infected?

    Like

  97. Ernesto
    July 22, 2014 at 1:53 pm

    This article makes me sad. It is already hard enough to be a parent with small children. Finding them good care and appropriate playmates that they get along with. Amongst the parents in my circle we usually avoid confrontational conversations when we can because they start unnecessary divisions and feuds.

    Am I supposed to risk relationships and friendships with other parents to protect a hypothetical person who I will never meet from getting sick from a vaccine preventable disease? What about all the other non-vaccine diseases floating about, colds and flus. There are thousands of them, and immune compromised people are vulnerable to all illnesses, not just the very small set that are vaccine preventable.

    This is poor advice, and anyone who follows it will learn it soon enough.

    Like

  98. July 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    VAERS? The passive reporting system that anyone can report anything that happens at any length of time post vaccination?

    It is a database which CANNOT be used to infer causation of condition B to procedure A. The website states as much itself.

    Like

  99. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    “Yes, the current vaccine schedule is more toxic than good.”

    Citation truly, madly, desparately needed.

    Like

  100. July 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    Willie – my sister had chicken pox three times as a child. I had it once. Other children were hospitalized from it, and a number would die each year in the US. Your nostalgia moment conveniently forgets the suffering many children had while they had chicken pox.

    Like

  101. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    “Chris, just curious, have you heard of VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System)? I hadn’t either before I started doing my own research into the topic. The adverse effects listed in the vaccine inserts (which, btw, not one pediatrician I know of has ever offered to show one or discuss the side effects listed with a parent) come from this reporting system, from adverse reaction that actually happened and were reported, not from lawyers”

    This is inaccurate in several ways.
    A. The reports on the inserts do not come from VAERS. They come from things reported to the manufacturers – which may also be reported to VAERS – and which are mentioned without needing to prove causation.

    B. Lawyers certainly report to VAERS. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/117/2/387.abstract “RESULTS. In recent years, most case reports to VAERS that were related to overdose, neuropathy, and thimerosal were related to litigation. Many cases that were related to autism and mental retardation were as well.

    CONCLUSIONS. This review shows a previously undisclosed rise in the number of reports to the VAERS related to pending litigation for vaccine injury. The implications of this for understanding longitudinal reporting patterns are discussed.”

    “The best possible defense against all illnesses (especially these benign childhood ones that the US vaccinates against) is your body’s natural ability to fight them off, i.e. your immune system.”

    Our immune system is great. It’s not perfect. And the diseases we vaccinate against have a record of success in overcoming it (like diphtheria, over 10% mortality rate). Chicken pox has a much lower rate of complications (though it can often cause suffering), but it killed about 100 people in the U.S. and hospitalized over 10000 each year pre-vaccine – most perviously healthy.

    Like

  102. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    People should be vaccinated to protect those that cannot be (or are too young to be vaccinated).

    Like

  103. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    Of course, during the 1918 – 1920 Flu Pandemic, it was the the young and healthy that died in greater numbers….not exactly the kind of track record I would want to take a risk for…..

    Like

  104. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 1:59 pm

    Lawrence, because it does 🙂
    See for yourself the list of adverse reactions to vaccines (listed by vaccine) here:
    https://vaers.hhs.gov/index

    I’ll take my chances on the chicken pox any day. How many of you commenting had it as a kid? Did you survive? Ever get it again? No need to comment, I know the answer.

    So why do we need one in the US? Most developed countries don’t have one on their schedules btw? I guess they’re just a bunch of idiots too.

    Like

  105. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    Riessd, your claim would never hold in a court of law especially since I have documented state exemptions for both of my children. It’s not neglect when I have filed the appropriate state required documentation.

    Like

  106. vendome
    July 22, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    My concern is people making stuff up in internet comments and expecting to be taken seriously.

    Like

  107. July 22, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    Again – not everyone who had chicken pox survived it. You have survivors bias. Of course those of us are here survived it, what a silly statement.

    We need one in the US because not every child survived it, and the benefits of the vaccine outweighed the risk.

    Like

  108. July 22, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    Willie, re the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and your claim that

    “The adverse effects listed in the vaccine inserts… come from this reporting system, from adverse reaction that actually happened and were reported, not from lawyers.”

    You seem to misunderstand three things; the nature of the information in the inserts, and the role of VAERS, and how VAERS reports can be manipulated.

    The inserts are very highly regulated, and not so much accurate medical documents but legal documents. Please study this article for a better understanding:

    http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/

    The VAERS page itself reads:

    Guide to Interpreting VAERS Case Report Information
    When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

    https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

    And yes, there is more than enough evidence that VAERS reporting for a particular vaccine and events spikes in response to attorney advertising. I will post that URL in a moment.

    Like

  109. July 22, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    Willie, I repeat: You are misusing or misunderstanding VAERS.

    Like

  110. July 22, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    I would wager that Riessd’s knowledge of law is superior to your understanding of it, BMS. Your exemptions would not protect you from legal action if your child were found to be patient zero.

    Like

  111. July 22, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    Willie, here is the evidence that attorney advertising affects what is reported to VAERS

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16452357
    Pediatrics. 2006 Feb;117(2):387-90.
    Vaccine adverse event reporting system reporting source: a possible source of bias in longitudinal studies.
    Goodman MJ, Nordin J.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:
    The US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a passive reporting system to which anyone can report an event. Publicity related to potential adverse events may change reporting patterns. The objective of this paper is to show how litigation-related reports have influenced the trends in possible adverse event reports to VAERS.
    METHODS:
    The VAERS public-use data files were downloaded in July 2004 and translated into identical SAS data sets for analysis. Cases that were related to litigation were identified using a word search algorithm. All cases for the most frequently reported symptoms in litigation (overdose, neuropathy, autism, “mental retardation,” arthralgia, and “speech disorder”) were reviewed.
    RESULTS:
    In recent years, most case reports to VAERS that were related to overdose, neuropathy, and thimerosal were related to litigation. Many cases that were related to autism and mental retardation were as well.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    This review shows a previously undisclosed rise in the number of reports to the VAERS related to pending litigation for vaccine injury. The implications of this for understanding longitudinal reporting patterns are discussed.

    Like

  112. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    Survivors bias…for chicken pox??
    My sincere hope is that every child is and remains healthy and happy.
    I am very thankful that we all have the right to make informed choices in this country.
    Peace to all…

    Like

  113. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    Encephalopathy, as terri notes, is a known but rare adverse event associated with vaccination. it isn’t, on the other hand, a rare adverse event associated with infectious disease.

    The MMR vaccine, for example, it causes encephalopathy with an incidence rate of one case for every one million vaccine doses administered. Measles, on the other hand, causes encephalopathy with an incidence of one in every one thousand infections. That’s three orders of magnitude greater risk of encephalopathy associated with measles than with the vaccine to protect against it.

    Worried about your child getting encephalopathy? The evidence is clear: you’ll want to vaccinate them.

    Like

  114. Me
    July 22, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    It never would have occurred to me to ask other parents if their kids were vaccinated. My youngest is now in middle school, so this “playdate” thing is out of my league anyway. Vaccine hysteria wasn’t around when my eldest kids (f23, 21) were small. Not one person has ever asked me about my kid’s shots other than the pediatrician.

    And even though I am a middle class white lady, my kids live in a town with 60% non-white, many of them undocumented immigrants. My kids went to Chuck E Cheese, play in the dirt, we have dogs, McDonald’s ball pits and were members at every amusement park within a 100 mile radius, They four are blissfully free of any chronic conditions, allergies or emotional/neurological/learning disorders. Part of this may be that they are fully vaccinated, but the other part is that they were all breastfeed for at least a year, then after a few years of picking up a bunch of viruses, were allowed to roam free and happily immersed in germs from then on. We just wash our hands after going to the toilet and before eating (with soap and water) and don’t worry about anything else. Sit right down on public toilets, flush with my hand, touch everything.

    I would probably laugh if someone asked me if my kids were vaccinated but I would be more than happy to show you. As I said they are fully vaxed with every single thing my pediatrician mentioned. Unless you count a yearly flu shot as “fully vaccinated” in which case I wouldn’t pass the test. Won’t get those, too many shots, and the confidence interval for the flu shot is dismal.

    Like

  115. July 22, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    Follow the money people. Big Pharma makes money on products that they have liability for and the use scare tactics to push their product. Please also follow the revolving door between Big Pharma and the FDA. Choose what is best for your family.

    Like

  116. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    “Do you know the ‘outbreaks’ start from vaccinated children?”

    No, and unless you can provide actually evidence that this is the case neither do you: citation needed.

    Like

  117. July 22, 2014 at 2:11 pm

    Follow the money? Big Pharma will make more money having to treat the diseases rather than prevent them.

    Like

  118. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    In Europe, about 25% of the VPD cases require hospitalization – sounds like a big money-maker to me.

    Like

  119. July 22, 2014 at 2:16 pm

    Really? I really doubt that Darwy

    Like

  120. July 22, 2014 at 2:20 pm

    Re chicken pox (varicella) vaccine

    “So why do we need one in the US? Most developed countries don’t have one on their schedules btw? I guess they’re just a bunch of idiots too.”

    Such a nuanced understanding of how and why differing countries with differing medical systems select vaccinations to recommend.

    In the US, (for the most part) individuals and/or their insurance companies pay for vaccinations. In countries with a national health system (the developed countries for example) the government pays. That is the reason that varicella is not a recommended vaccine in the UK (and I believe Australia and New Zealand) — the cost/benefit analysis.

    WHO Varicella Position Paper:

    “Although the burden of severe disease and mortality due to varicella and herpes zoster is substantially lower than that of other currently vaccine-preventable disease such as measles, pertussis, rotavirus or invasive pneumococcal disease prior to vaccine introduction, the public health value of varicella vaccination in lowering morbidity and mortality due to VZV, particularly in vulnerable population groups, is well established. ”

    http://www.who.int/immunization/position_papers/WHO_pp_varicella_herpes_zoster_june2014_presentation.pdf

    Like

  121. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm

    “For example, the chicken pox…ever have it? I did, and so did every single other person I knew. We all survived, no harm done except for maybe a scar or two.”

    Perhaps all the people you knew survived, but clearly not all the people who contracted chicken pox survived: in teh US prior to vaccination there were ~4 million cases of chicken pox each year, resulting in 10,000 to 16,000 hospitalizations and 100 to 150 deaths.

    Like

  122. Charbswims
    July 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm

    REISSD, direct from the CDC. These are the ingredients in each vaccine. I’m doing all your research for you, feel free to look up their effects. And I don’t mean their effect when ingested, I mean their effect once injected into muscle or the bloodstream. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf And no, I do not ask other people about their status because I am confident in our decision and we do our best to keep our kids healthy regardless of those around them.

    Like

  123. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    @Terri – hmmm…treating tens of thousands, if not hundred of thousands of infected individuals or preventing disease (or eliminate them entirely, like Smallpox).

    You know nothing about economics, do you?

    Like

  124. July 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm

    re “Big Pharma will make more money having to treat the diseases rather than prevent them.”

    Robust vaccination programs save lives and money.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24590750

    Pediatrics. 2014 Apr;133(4):577-85. doi: 10.1542/peds.2013-0698. Epub 2014 Mar 3.
    Economic evaluation of the routine childhood immunization program in the United States, 2009.
    Zhou F, Shefer A, Wenger J, Messonnier M, Wang LY, Lopez A, Moore M, Murphy TV, Cortese M, Rodewald L.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES:
    To evaluate the economic impact of the 2009 routine US childhood immunization schedule, including diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis, Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate, inactivated poliovirus, measles/mumps/rubella, hepatitis B, varicella, 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate, hepatitis A, and rotavirus vaccines; influenza vaccine was not included.
    METHODS:
    Decision analysis was conducted using population-based vaccination coverage, published vaccine efficacies, historical data on disease incidence before vaccination, and disease incidence reported during 2005 to 2009. Costs were estimated using the direct cost and societal (direct and indirect costs) perspectives. Program costs included vaccine, administration, vaccine-associated adverse events, and parent travel and work time lost. All costs were inflated to 2009 dollars, and all costs and benefits in the future were discounted at a 3% annual rate. A hypothetical 2009 US birth cohort of 4,261,494 infants over their lifetime was followed up from birth through death. Net present value (net savings) and benefit-cost ratios of routine childhood immunization were calculated.
    RESULTS:
    Analyses showed that routine childhood immunization among members of the 2009 US birth cohort will prevent ∼42,000 early deaths and 20 million cases of disease, with net savings of $13.5 billion in direct costs and $68.8 billion in total societal costs, respectively. The direct and societal benefit-cost ratios for routine childhood vaccination with these 9 vaccines were 3.0 and 10.1.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    From both direct cost and societal perspectives, vaccinating children as recommended with these vaccines results in substantial cost savings.

    Like

  125. July 22, 2014 at 2:24 pm

    Cost of a flu shot: 25 dollars
    Cost of tamiflu (for 5 days): 100 dollars

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10548186

    The cost of a stay in PICU – remember that 90% of people who are exposed to measles and not immune will contract it. Measles has a 25% complication rate, requiring hospitalization for pneumonia, encephalitis, etc.

    The birth cohort for the US each year is about 4 million children. That’s a lot of PICU stays.

    Like

  126. reissd
    July 22, 2014 at 2:24 pm

    @charbswims: thank you, I know which ingredients are in vaccines. Tiny amounts of natural ingredients are not a problem. Here is an explanation of why these ingredients are there, and how we know they’re safe: http://www.chop.edu/system/galleries/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients.pdf

    Like

  127. Voice of Reason
    July 22, 2014 at 2:26 pm

    This is entirely laughable. Most adults walking around aren’t UTD, since all vaccines lose any possible effectiveness b/w 2 and 10 years. Stop the fear mongering please, we have a greater crisis to concern ourselves with. The EPIDEMIC of autism, (aka brain damage from the 250% increase in the childhood vaccine schedule).

    Like

  128. July 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm

    Dear voice of reason: You’ve left your reason behind.

    Sincerely,

    the rest of the planet.

    Like

  129. July 22, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    Claim: “since all vaccines lose any possible effectiveness b/w 2 and 10 years.”

    Please cite your sources for your claim for the following diseases. Please include duration of immunity from having had the disease, and compare it to duration of immunity from immunization.

    Hepatitis B
    Diphtheria
    Tetanus
    Pertussis
    Haemophilus influenzae type b.
    Pneumococcal disease
    Polio
    Measles
    Mumps
    Rubella
    Varicella
    Hepatitis A

    Like

  130. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 2:33 pm

    Vaccination is far more cost effective than treating outbreaks, terri. In the US, vaccinating children against chicken pox saves roughly $100 million a year in costs of hospital care for serious cases alone, and those aren’t the only costs associated with infection (there’s also the costs associated with doctor visits, prescription drugs, over-the-counter remedies and lost work time for parents or adult patients.

    (http://www.ur.umich.edu/0405/Sept07_04/11.shtml)

    Like

  131. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 2:36 pm

    “REISSD, direct from the CDC. These are the ingredients in each vaccine. I’m doing all your research for you, feel free to look up their effects. And I don’t mean their effect when ingested, I mean their effect once injected into muscle or the bloodstream.”

    At levels of exposure achievable as a result of receiving a vaccination? The effects span the whole range from from ‘non-existent’ to ‘neglible’.

    Repeat after me: the dose makes the poison.

    Like

  132. July 22, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    “we have a greater crisis to concern ourselves with. The EPIDEMIC of autism, (aka brain damage from the 250% increase in the childhood vaccine schedule).”

    1. Autism isn’t brain damage. Autism isn’t anything to fear. Autistic people are fully human. Autism is a natural variation in human neurology.
    2. There is no epidemic of autism. There’s increased awareness, a huge broadening of the diagnostic criteria for autism, and demographic changes that increase the chance that a child will be born with autism.
    3. After tens of studies with millions of study participants, no link between receipt of vaccines and autism has ever been found.

    Like

  133. Annyomous
    July 22, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    While I agree some vaccines are good. I question vaccines like the Chicken Pox (Varicella Zoster). The CDC claims only 100-150 people dies from Chicken Pox before 1990(when first Chicken Pox vaccine started trials). But if you look at the National Vital Statistics System, Pregnancy and Child Birth has 825. No one else in the World vaccinates against Chicken Pox. Actually the other Developed Countries such as England, Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Iceland and more, DO NOT vaccinate against MOST of what we, the USA, do vaccinate against.

    I’d much rather have my daughter catch the Chicken Pox as a child. Now if she goes through Childhood and doesn’t get the Chicken Pox then I will vaccinate her because at that point it is better to have some protection than none, Chicken Pox is 20 times more deadly in adults than it is in Children.

    We need to have conversations about Vaccines rather than blaming and name calling. If we stop questioning then we will be guinea pigs to big Pharma. Questions have lead us to the science and medicine and understanding of the Physical World. We CANNOT lose what brought us here.

    P.S. Chris you do not realize how hard it is to get information that people like you and doctors require. My current Pediatrician does not like the fact that I’ve been looking at the science from Europe and in the same sentence won’t give me the literature that convinced him because I’m “tech savy”. You do not seem to understand that people seem to question the fact that these studies are funded by the one company that manufactures that particular vaccine(because no other company makes it i.e. Merck makes the Chicken Pox vaccine. They also make the Shingles (Herpes Zoster) vaccine. I think that should be considered a monopoly but it isn’t.) or that the study is vaccinated vs. adjuvant or a previous version of the vaccine. Also if you do have an adverse reaction often time you get “It’s just a coincidence” Read some of the stories on the vaccine memorial wall at the NVIC website.

    Like

  134. Charbswims
    July 22, 2014 at 2:41 pm

    Darwy- Most people don’t need Tamiflu when you get the flu. In fact by taking Tamiflu every time you think you have the flu, you are further impairing your immune system from 1) recognizing disease quickly and 2) the ability to fight effectively.

    Like

  135. July 22, 2014 at 2:45 pm

    I’ve never taken tamiflu. I get my flu shot yearly.

    I’d like to see some evidence that tamiflu ‘impairs the immune system’ please.

    Like

  136. Kailey
    July 22, 2014 at 2:45 pm

    Go get your boosters and then we can talk. How am I supposed to take someone seriously when they’re talking about herd immunity and aren’t up to date themselves?

    The other day I took my kids, including a seven week old, to my nephews birthday party at their home. A 6 month old shows up who’s mom is talking about how she just got her shots a week ago and is fussy and hasn’t been sleeping well. My first thought was of course that her baby could possibly be contagious and I need to keep her baby away from mine and my baby’s things. My second thought was if her baby has been fussy and not sleeping well for a week what exactly is she feeling that’s causing the fussiness and sleepiness? People just shrug and say the babies are fussy from the shots, no big deal, and never ask WHY the baby is fussy. Headache maybe? Who knows, they can’t tell us.

    Like

  137. July 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm

    Who says we’re not up to date? I’m up to date with every shot I can currently get. So is everyone else in my family. Mom’s even gotten the shingles vaccine and the pneumonia vaccine.

    Like

  138. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    @Darwy – same here, where does Kailey get the idea that we don’t keep up with our shots (as necessary)?

    Like

  139. Charbswims
    July 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    reissd, thanks for the link. Heres a list of ingredients (again from the CDC page I listed above) that are not on your handy rebuttal. Feel free to search your doc for any of these there are 100s more but as I said, i’m not interested in doing your research for you. calf serum, monkey kidney, ethanol,phenol,detergent, bovine albumin, sucrose, Triton X-100 (oh and here’s the MSDS for that gem): http://www.daigger.com/portals/0/literature/259702_msds20_labchem.pdf , Canine Kidney, herpes, edta, embryonic guinea pig cell cultures

    Like

  140. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 3:01 pm

    Liz, what about the studies like this one, published in the North American Journal of Medical Sciences:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3364648/
    “This article explores the issues and concludes that sensory dysfunction and systemic failure, manifested as autism, is the inevitable consequence arising from subtle DNA alteration and consequently from the overuse of vaccines.”

    Introduction
    That the occurrence of autism has risen steadily in the last decades is not in dispute. Prior to the 1930’s and the introduction of vaccinations autism was unknown. By 1968 in the UK, when Polio and DPT vaccines were given at 6 and 7 months autism was very rare. In 1988, when Polio and DPT was given at 3 months, DPT at 5 months and MMR at c13 months autism rates were still low. In 1996, when Polio and DPT/HIB injections were given at 2, 3 and 4 months, followed by MMR at c13 months autism rates began rising rapidly. By 2006 the occurrence of autism had reached pandemic proportions. In the period shortly before the 1980’s the occurrence of autism was estimated to be circa 3-5 per 10,000; the majority having autism from birth[1]. Since the introduction of multiple vaccines the prevalence of autism has increased to an estimated 1 in 166 i.e. 60 per 10,000. Furthermore the trend is that of a continued increase.

    For every study that claims no link between vaccines and autism, there is one that claims there is. So, who’s right? The thing about the ones that claim there is…they are conducted by independent scientists with no links to Big Pharma, unlike the ones that claim they’re not.

    Like

  141. July 22, 2014 at 3:01 pm

    No idea, Lawrence. I keep on top of vaccine boosters, etc for the family, as they’re a vital way to protect our health. Most rational folks would do the same.

    Like

  142. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    Current rates are 1 in 68; 1 in 42 for boys. That’s the CDC’s own statistics from a study conducted in only 11 of the 50 states btw. So if there’s no link between the increased vaccine schedule (the US has the highest rates of autism AND the highest number of vaccines…just coincidence?) then what is responsible for this EPIDEMIC. If this is not an epidemic, I’d like to know what your definition is.

    Like

  143. July 22, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    Willie, you can spot the fallacy with the first paragraph of the introduction, “That the occurrence of autism has risen steadily in the last decades is not in dispute. Prior to the 1930’s and the introduction of vaccinations autism was unknown.”

    Autism as a diagnosis didn’t occur until 1943 with Leo Kanner.

    The fact that your study can’t even discuss the diagnosis of autism correctly makes it less than a stellar source for evidence.

    (That’s ignoring the huge ecological fallacy the author makes)

    Like

  144. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    @Wilie – given that reference isn’t a “study” I’d actually point you to the following:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Like

  145. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 3:08 pm

    @Willie – why do you trust the CDC numbers when it comes to the rate of autism vs. all of their research that shows no connection between vaccines and autism?

    Like

  146. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 3:22 pm

    @terri johnson

    Ah, the old pharma shill gambit, a certain sign that you have no argument to speak of and have to resort to lies.

    @willie

    So, if you believe VAERS so much, do you believe that vaccines can make you have superpowers or turn you into the Hulk? Because VAERS is a passive system, anybody can add what they believe is a side effect into the system.

    Like

  147. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 3:23 pm

    Willie, the paper you link to provides no evidence supporting a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders–it simply notes that both autism diagnoses and the number of vaccines on the childhood vacination schedule have increased over the same time period. So have a lot of things: sales of organic produce. Internet usage. Cell phone usage.

    Correlation does not establish causation.

    “So if there’s no link between the increased vaccine schedule (the US has the highest rates of autism AND the highest number of vaccines…just coincidence?) then what is responsible for this EPIDEMIC.”

    The ‘epidemic’ noted is in the number of individuals diagnosed as autistic, not necessarily the number of individuals in the population who are autistic, and it’s a result of multiple factors, including but not limited to broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution and improved surveillance.

    Like

  148. JGC56
    July 22, 2014 at 3:29 pm

    “The CDC claims only 100-150 people dies from Chicken Pox before 1990(when first Chicken Pox vaccine started trials).”

    The CDC also states that roughly 4 million people (mostly children) contracted chicken pox every year prior to 1990 of whom 10,000 to 13,000 required hospitalization.

    Vaccination safely and effectively protects against infection leading to illness, hospitalization and the deaths you noted, and it does so in a highly cost effective manner saving roughly $100 million a year just with respect to the costs of hospitalization alone.

    I’d say that preventing about 4 million kids from getting sick each year is reason enough to vaccinate, and to my mind your question shouldn’t be expressed as “Why does the US vaccinate against chicken pox?” but instead as “Why in hell aren’t all those other nations doing the same?”

    Like

  149. July 22, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    Willie asked, ” what about the studies like this one” — with a link to Graham E. Ewing’s 2009 speculative paper in a third-tier journal.

    Ewing is the owner/operator of “Montague Healthcare” — an enterprise that claims to cure a remarkable number of conditions by some kind of software-powered “light therapy”. The citation lists includes such luminaries as the Geiers, Andy Wakefield and deSoto — that is, the usual suspects.

    Willie, you’ll have to do a lot better than that.

    Like

  150. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 3:34 pm

    I should add, where I worked at a MR/DD facility, the workplace told us the history of the place, which had been opened since the 1950s. In addition to housing individuals affected with MR by measles (which is preventable today via vaccination), they also had individuals who today would be considered autistic but were labled dumb and morons.

    Like

  151. Jack Mehoff
    July 22, 2014 at 4:05 pm

    Why not just put your kids in a bubble their whole life. This blog is so ridiculous.

    Like

  152. Jack Mehoff
    July 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    It’s nobody’s damn business what vaccines my child has…..if they don’t like that answer they can go pound sand for all I care.

    Like

  153. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    @Jack – that would actually be the way for anti-vaxers to avoid all diseases (put their kids in a bubble)…otherwise, the rest of us rational folks get vaccinated.

    Like

  154. July 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    “It’s nobody’s damn business if my child brings peanut butter to school. I don’t care if it endangers a child with peanut allergy.…..if they don’t like that answer they can go pound sand for all I care”

    Like

  155. Jack Mehoff
    July 22, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    Vaccines are what caused peanut allergies in the first place.

    Like

  156. Jack Mehoff
    July 22, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    and gmo

    Like

  157. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    @Jack – that is a lie, plain and simple.

    Like

  158. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Lawrence, I don’t trust the CDC numbers considering their numbers are only based on 11 states. Last time I checked, there were 50. So one can only assume that if all 50 states were studied the rates would be higher.

    And Liz, every single study that says there is no link between vaccines and autism is commissioned and paid for by pharma companies and the CDC. Come on, you have to do much better than that.

    And you didn’t address my question about the rise in rates…look at the history of prevalence of autism…are you going to deny that rates have not risen astronomically too? So, what is causing it then? Well, they “know” it’s not vaccines, but they don’t know what it is. (cue the articles about genetic links, etc.)

    Point is, people are strongly divided on this issue. As I said earlier, I’m thankful that we have a right to make an informed decision regarding our children’s health in this country.

    Like

  159. July 22, 2014 at 4:34 pm

    Claim: “Vaccines and GMO are what caused peanut allergies in the first place.”

    Both claims are complete fabrications. The original poster is welcome to supply peer-reviewed literature substantiating his claims.

    Like

  160. July 22, 2014 at 4:39 pm

    Vaccine Pros and Cons Site

    http://vaccines.procon.org

    “About 30,000 cases of adverse reactions to vaccines have been reported annually to the federal government since 1990, with 13% classified as serious, meaning associated with permanent disability, hospitalization, life-threatening illness, or death.” [23]

    [13%] That’s 3,900 people EVERY year for almost 24 years. Where was this information in her post?

    Have 3,900 non-vaccinated people a year (infants, children, adults) suffered the same serious reactions!?

    Why is there even a debate here? Numbers speak for themselves if only we’d choose to open our eyes and ears and apply just a little common sense. So there’s “no proof” they say… What do all these numbers mean then!??

    Like

  161. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:42 pm

    @simply – over 2 Billion doses of vaccines have been given…….can you do the math?

    Like

  162. July 22, 2014 at 4:43 pm
  163. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:44 pm

    Over 6000 people die every from HepB-related liver disease………can you do the Math?

    Like

  164. July 22, 2014 at 4:45 pm

    Lawrence – I can do the math very well. Thank you for your concern. These are Reported. Do you have any clue how difficult it is to have a dr file a report? For them to actually say it is a vax related injury?
    I guess you would know if you’ve had to deal with it.

    Like

  165. July 22, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    And yes!! We should trust the CDC .. No thank you !!
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/health/cdc-anthrax-hearing/index.html

    Like

  166. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:49 pm

    @simply – wow, just about every single one of those reasons is a lie.

    Like

  167. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:49 pm

    @simply – filing a report is simple. Even a layman can do it.

    Like

  168. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 4:52 pm

    And the evidence shows that more serious reactions are much more likely to be reported…..reactions like a fever or soreness at the injection site (the most likely reactions) are much less likely to be reported (because they aren’t anything to concerned about).

    Like

  169. July 22, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Simply Caring, your numbers are a bit off.

    “The percentage of petitions to actual vaccines administered is therefore 0.016%. One one-hundredth of one percent of cases of vaccination have resulted in a petition being filed.”

    http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/03/05/a-look-at-the-numbers-in-vaccine-reactions/

    Like

  170. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 4:55 pm

    Lawrence, you reference Hep B so I assume you know how it’s contracted…through the sharing of contaminated needles, unprotected sex with someone who is infected, from infected mother to baby during childbirth. Then I ask you…why do they give a Hep B vaccine to an hours old newborn even when the mother is not infected? I am not infected, yet I was expected to allow them to administer the vaccine to my newborns. Why? Explain the science behind that one.

    Someone between the two sides of this argument lies the absolute truth. Until that is discovered, I wish everyone luck on their quest for it through education and knowledge.

    Like

  171. Amber
    July 22, 2014 at 4:56 pm

    Golly, I would love to vaccinate my child and I’ll be happy to resume all vaccines when: 1) Full liability to vaccine manufacturers is restored; and 2) When aborted fetal cells are removed from vaccines; and 3) When all food proteins/aluminum which cause life-threatening food allergies are removed. Until then, you’re welcome to vaccinate your child and birth in him/her autism, diabetes, or life-threatening food allergies. Please, feel free, the joke is on you. But, would you buy a van if the manufacturer said, “Sorry, there’s no liability on any piece of this van.” Would you buy a pack of cookies if the manufacturer was not responsible for any part making you sick? Please, go ahead and vaccinate. And I’ll go buy some shares in Pfizer, Merck, and laugh all the way to the bank.

    Like

  172. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 4:56 pm

    Liz, the CDC, on their website, estimates that only 10% of adverse effects are reported.

    Like

  173. Willie
    July 22, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    *Somewhere between the two sides…

    Like

  174. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm

    @jack

    [citation needed] for your claims.

    @charbswims

    First of all, have you ever heard of the the saying “the does is the poison?”. Because you keep ignoring Dorit’s link, with actual science behind it, and going toward base fearmongering.

    @willie

    Let’s give you three posts to back up your claims with actual peer-reviewed evidence. Failure to do so implies that you have been lying to us the entire time.

    @simply

    Ahh yes, your link, not backed up by any actual science or basic logic, why should any rational person believe it?

    Again, [citation needed] for your claims, since they go against actual science.

    Like

  175. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    @willie

    You do know that HepB can be transmitted other thank what you listed. My family sponsored two refugees that had HepB that did not contract them through sexual contact, needle use, or by their mothers.

    Also, you do know that the test for HepB is not perfect, so someone with HepB could test negative, yet still pass it on to their children.

    Unless you like people to suffer from liver failure, which is not a pretty sight.

    @amber

    Ah yes, the old pharma shill gambit, a sure sign that you have no argument.

    What makes you think that you cannot sue vaccine manufacturers? If you want to sue them for your silly failed hypothesis, go ahead, but be prepared to pay a ton of money for a protracted legal battle and lawyer fees. You also do know about the vaccine court, right?

    Second, have you ever heard of the saying “the dose is the poison?”, as well as the LD50 ratio, right? So please, tell us all.

    Like

  176. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 5:09 pm

    @Willie – and serious reactions are more likely to be reported….someone who had a sore injection site is not going to report. Got anything new?

    Like

  177. July 22, 2014 at 5:12 pm

    While you are at it, are you askig your children’s friends what religion they are? If they wash their hands regularly? What they ate yesterday for dinner?
    Here’s a good read also:
    http://www.livingwhole.org/my-journey-leaving-the-anti-vaccination-movement/

    Like

  178. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    Someone’s religion isn’t going to give me child Pertussis…..

    Like

  179. July 22, 2014 at 5:17 pm

    Lawrence, now I know you are one of the following people:
    1) Just totally ignorant
    2) A member of the vax industry
    3) A Dr
    4) Not the parent of a vax injuried child
    I’m going with 1,2 & 3
    They ‘Form’ is not filed by a parent. A doctor HAS TO submit the forms to VAERS. All the letters and forms from parents mean nothing and it will by be reported. On a side note for you, if you have five Drs that state vax injury, you only need ONE to say that it ‘possibly could have been’ something else. Your report will NOT BE LISTED

    Like

  180. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 5:18 pm

    @simply – a website with more lies…..I lost track after counting at least three dozen factually incorrect statements.

    Like

  181. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 5:20 pm

    @simply – another lie, I can file a VAERS report today….

    The only person who has demonstrated ignorance here is yourself. Why do you keep repeating statements that have been shown to be factually incorrect?

    Like

  182. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 5:22 pm

    @simply

    Ahh yes, more insults, and yet you still haven’t posted any actual scientific evidence to support your views.

    Let’s give you three posts to support your assertions. Failure to do so within 3 posts will mean that we can all assume that you have been lying to us the entire time and that any future posts you make will be considered suspect until shown otherwise.

    Like

  183. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 5:24 pm

    https://vaers.hhs.gov/esub/index – where is specifically states:

    Form Completed By
    To be used by the person completing the form (e.g. parents/guardians, vaccine distributors, vaccine administrators, the person completing the form on behalf of the patient, or the health professional who administered the vaccine). Be sure to complete this box accurately since it is used for our operational and follow-up activities (i.e. processing requests for copies of a report).

    Like

  184. July 22, 2014 at 5:27 pm
  185. July 22, 2014 at 5:30 pm

    LOL. If you’d walked into a room in 1950 in the U.S. and expressed concern over some cases of measles in the neighborhood, you’da been considered a nut – or perhaps a source of information, for those parents who were lookin’ to expose their kids. Measles has been a benign disease in the U.S. – and anywhere else the population is generally well nourished and well housed – for seventy years. And before you get your feathers in an uproar, benign means, complications aren’t expected, and complete recovery is usual. You can die from a cold, if you’re not treated properly, or if you’re malnourished, and we don’t characterize colds as deadly. The simple fact is that, well before the vaccine, mortality associated with measles had declined steeply, by over 95%.

    The vaccine industry and their dutiful regurgitators in the mainstream media oughta be shot – metaphorically – for painting such a preposterously overblown picture of the threat of disease, while characterizing vaccines as safe, when very few actual serious adverse reactions ever get reported, and if you don’t know the full picture of reactions, you simply don’t know the true risk. Some kids die from vaccines, and others are permanently disabled. That fact should be made clear to every parent, regardless of the assumed probability, in fulfillment of informed consent – and not as a brief mention on a document, but meaningfully, face to face, eyeball to eyeball with the doctor or nurse. The liberty of determining what level of risk is acceptable for the child rests with the parent.

    Research. Educate. Vaccination’s a con game. The CDC made changes to the definition of polio in 1955, right after the vaccine was released – changes so radical that over the last sixty years around a million cases of what would have been diagnosed as polio in 1954 were given different labels. That’s not disease eradication, that’s deception.

    The vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. Every kid, vaccinated or not, carries potentially pathogenic organisms. They touch the same door handles, drink from the same water fountains, stand in the same groups, and it’s been repeatedly shown that the vaccinated can initiate disease outbreaks, as well as the unvaccinated.

    Like

  186. July 22, 2014 at 5:34 pm

    Having 2 vaccine injured children, I need no ‘links’. You can act as if you have a clue no & law. After $20,000 in attorney fees, multiple forms, by myself and many physicians (both primary and specialist), I can assure you I don’t need ‘links’, when I had to live with it everyday.
    Thanks for your concerns though. I can see one or both of you must work for the industry or are very ignorant. It’s also important to note the following two children, never vaccinated never have had more then a cold. They are 17 & 15.
    Now commence to spreading more of your lies, I’m sure all those trusting their children’s futures will enjoy hearing from you.
    You will not have anything to offer my children and you won’t be here caring for them either.

    Like

  187. Elisabeth
    July 22, 2014 at 5:51 pm

    From part one –

    ” …if you allow unvaccinated children to play with your own you’re increasing the risk of your fully vaccinated child catching one of these diseases you’ve worked so hard to protect her from.”

    Worked so hard? You drove her to the doctor’s office, waited for your turn, and let the nurse vaccinate her, then paid the bill or let the insurance pay for it.

    How DO you work hard to protect your child from common childhood illnesses? You:
    – feed them immune-building foods that cultures have been eating for this purpose for centuries: fermented cod liver oil, raw milk, grassfed meat, pastured eggs, lard from pastured pigs, fresh vegetables and fruit, bone broth, fermented foods, properly prepared grains, natural sugars, organ meats, wild seafood, and coconut oil (google WestonA Price if you’re curious).
    – let them play in the dirt
    – let them go out in the sun WITHOUT sunscreen
    – keep chemicals, dyes, preservatives, additives, and all other toxic substances out of their diet to the best of your ability
    – keep white sugar out of their diet
    – encourage a lot of exercise
    – trust in the amazing handiwork of God that He has created our bodies to resist illness if properly nourished and cared for

    The results are not immediate – vaccination satisfies the “want it NOW” mentality – but will build a child’s health for life as opposed to putting it in a downward spiral in exchange for parent’s peace of mind and shirking of the responsibility to properly nourish his or her child.

    Like

  188. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 6:10 pm

    @simply – since you won’t admit that you are wrong or lying, there is nothing more I can do for you.

    Like

  189. Angel
    July 22, 2014 at 6:16 pm

    If you do everything to protect your children from disease, why on earth would you vaccinate? Vaccination disrupts the immune system, tipping the balance away from the cell-mediated response. The fully vaccinated kids I know are ALWAYS SICK, the unvaccinated kids I know are NEVER SICK, completely healthy.

    Like

  190. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    Well said Elisabeth

    Like

  191. Lawrence
    July 22, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    @Angel – another set of lies.

    Like

  192. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    Shawn Siegel: “Research. Educate. Vaccination’s a con game.”

    Oh, really? And why should we get “educated” by the author of this graph. Would you care to explain how 100% of the general population becomes autistic several years before girls?

    Elisabeth, Angel, BMS and the rest of the pro-disease horde, please remember to thank your responsible neighbors for vaccinated their families. They are protecting your kids by maintaining community immunity.

    Like

  193. Denise cruickshanks
    July 22, 2014 at 6:50 pm

    I would simply ask what their opinions were on vaccinating the children thus hopefully leading to an answer.

    Like

  194. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    @simply

    Strike 1 and 2

    @shawn

    Perhaps you would like to meet one of the residents at the MR/DD that I worked at. I’m sure he would say that measles is a mild disease. Of course, since he has severe MR/DD due to the measles sequelae that he got, he has to be cared for 24/7. I’m sure his family would like to thank you for your utter insensitivity.

    @angel, elizabeth

    [citation needed] for your assertions, since they fly in the face of actual evidence. You also do know that more children died before vaccinations became normal. so of course less children had allergies, since there were fewer children in the first place. Care to check local death records, or an old cemetery?

    Like

  195. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 7:13 pm

    Chris,
    Once again my neighbor actually does not vaccinate her youngest, 2 of my coworkers do not vaccinate, a good friend does not vaccinate, and many of my colleagues do not vaccinate their children and the list goes on and on. So who I am to thank again?

    Like

  196. Yizzy
    July 22, 2014 at 7:14 pm

    I’m been a mom on both sides of this debate. With my first kids I was always in the pediatricians office the day the vaccines were due because I didn’t want my child unprotected. I “knew” vaccines where effective and totally save. My pediatrician told me so. I looked down with disdain at my “uneducated” friend who didn’t vaccinate her kids. Why would anyone do that?

    Unfortunately, I had to learn that hard way that vaccines are not as safe or as effective as I was led to believe. My 4th child had a severe vaccine reaction with life-long implication. It was only then that I went beyond the rhetoric I heard in the doctors office and media and began to research all sides of the issue thoroughly. I’ve read more vaccines studies (both pro and con) than I care to remember. Needless to say, my family doesn’t vaccinate any more.

    So, yes, please ask me if my children are vaccinated. I would love to share my story with you as to why I used to vaccinate but no longer do. Let the education begin!

    Like

  197. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    In conclusion, none of the children my kids are in close contact with are vaccinated including my niece.

    Like

  198. BMS
    July 22, 2014 at 7:16 pm

    Yizzy, But the studies show that reactions are rare. It isnt true if its not published! (Sarcasm) Sorry to hear about you little one and their reaction, it happens much more than people are willing to acknowledge.

    Like

  199. July 22, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    So my question is where do you draw the line? If you need to ask before a child plays with another child…do you take a survey at the park? Or are vaccinated children not allowed to go out in public places? Do you take a survey when you go out to eat in the restaurant? Or do you never take them to places like that? I’m just wondering where the line is for protecting a vaccinated child. Or if a vaccinating parent takes proactive precautions to keep their child away from other children during the time period after receiving their shot because of shedding? Just seems like the waters are a lot more muddy than this article would make it sound.

    Like

  200. July 22, 2014 at 7:57 pm

    I find your ignorance to my families vax injuries, by stating strike (1&2) and then asking for sympathy from me for someone with measles. Which my mother and siblings had, all alive with no complications. Though she did get the flu after her flu vax, followed up with a nice stay in the hospital.
    Telling parents to be afraid of unvaccinated children, is another scare tactic.
    Stay away from my vax injured children then too? They will never have poison injected in to their bodies ever again.
    Now go play your games somewhere else. Those in the business of making money off of vaccines and attempting to discredit those who’s lives are forever changed from injury due to vaccines, need not bother replying to any of my comments.

    Like

  201. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 8:39 pm

    BMS: “So who I am to thank again?”

    So you live in a community that only exists of one neighbor, two co-workers and a few colleagues? You would be okay if you actually just lived on that tiny island. You need to thank all of those who live in your community that vaccinate their family. That means those down the street and across town.

    And because you think we can believe in anecdotes, I still want to see PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases. Since I have been out most of the day, I have not only skimmed this thread.

    Novalox and Lawrence, has anyone come up with real evidence? Or is it just stories?

    Like

  202. Chris
    July 22, 2014 at 8:41 pm

    type argh: “I have not only skimmed this thread.”

    Like

  203. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    @simply

    Strike 3 yer out.

    Since you cannot support your assertions with evidence, we can all assume that what you have posted here you cannot support with actual evidence, and therefore, anything you have said has to be considered suspect or an outright lie. This is not a game, and people can get hurt from your lies, like the individual who I worked with at my workplace. I do not want people to get hurt or suffer from VPDs like I have seen at my workplace and at the hospital that I volunteer at.

    So again, thanks for admitting that you are here just to troll, and that vaccines are safe and effective against VPDs. I pity your children

    @bms

    [citation needed] for your assertions that vaccine reactions are more common than their wild-type diseases sequelae that they prevent within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are lying like the other posters.

    @yizzy

    So, have you filed a court claim with the Vaccine court? Because if what you say is true, you should have a claim # that keeps you anonymous.

    Like

  204. Deborah Bugden
    July 22, 2014 at 8:59 pm

    Yes….please tell me if your children have been recently vaccinated. Especially with something like a live flu virus, I’ll happily stay away from them.

    This reminds me of schools in Germany , before the Holocost, they used to get the Jewish children to stand up in front of the class so all the other children could point out the differences in a Jewish child compared to themselves.

    I am surprised at doctors who still refuse to acknowledge the possible severe side effects and failed effectiveness of vaccines. Do you read current research. Thank goodness there are so many doctors who are educating themselves, and now speaking against or questioning the safety of vaccines.
    Anyway… Discussion is good… Bring on the education… Please ask me if I vaccinate… Let’s talk .

    Like

  205. novalox
    July 22, 2014 at 9:01 pm

    @deborah

    Ah, pulling out a Godwin now, are we?

    Again, [citation needed] for your assertions, since they fly in the face of actual science.

    Like

  206. Gray Falcon
    July 22, 2014 at 9:58 pm

    One other piece of advice: Something bad happening after the vaccination does not necessarily mean the vaccine was at fault. There was a time such was admissible as evidence. That was when leeching was the standard cure for fever and the “evil eye” was considered a valid reason to execute someone.

    Like

  207. Kelly
    July 22, 2014 at 10:04 pm

    As I read through the anti-vax comments posted here I noticed two things:

    1. The admission that they would lie about their child’s vaccination status thus taking away informed choice of others. This leads me to ask myself, “If they are willing to lie in answer to such a simple question, what else are they willing to lie about to support their anti-vax stance?” They have certainly demonstrated that accuracy in the information they provide is not a priority to them.

    2. Although they claim to be “educated”, they have made some pretty serious mistakes in knowledge about vaccines and logic. I use quotation marks around educated, as a truly educated person would not make such simple mistakes.

    Like

  208. pharmi
    July 23, 2014 at 12:34 am

    Working in the medical field, I find it a bit puzzling that the majority of adults in the U.S. (including MANY that point their fingers at anti-vaxers) are NOT up to date on their own shots. It’s very troubling to hear that most adults believe that they are still protected by the vaccines they had when they were children. Nearly all vaccines wear off over time – some within just a few years – so, before you get on the pro-vax soapbox, please take a look at your own record – get some antibody titier tests if you have to (I did and I was very surprised by the results) because there’s a chance are you are just as unprotected as they are.

    *Just a side note: The Hospital where I work has implemented mandatory titer testing to insure that healthcare workers are fully immunized. They have been shocked at the number of nurses that were fully vaccinated as children (with records to prove it) but no longer have sufficient titer counts – the list includes measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, and diphtheria, just to name a few.

    Like

  209. Amber K
    July 23, 2014 at 12:39 am

    @Willie “Lawrence, I don’t trust the CDC numbers considering their numbers are only based on 11 states. Last time I checked, there were 50. So one can only assume that if all 50 states were studied the rates would be higher.:

    No, one could not assume that. That is a simple statistical misunderstanding. The total number of cases of autism should increase, but so would the number of kids without autism. So, if the sample of 11 states was a representative one, you wouldn’t expect the rate to change at all by adding all 50 states. But we certainly couldn’t presume that adding states would necessarily increase the rate.

    @Simply. I’m sorry to hear that you believe your children were injured by vaccines. But even if you go by the numbers of all the people who believe their children were injured by vaccines and compare it to the number of people who *were* definitely injured or killed by preventable diseases before vaccines existed, you can see that the diseases were more harmful. The fact that you know two people who were, as you say, injured by vaccines and two people who were not injured by measles does not prove anything statistically.

    Like

  210. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 1:50 am

    @pharmi

    While I do understand the need for titers (especially if you are going into a healthcare field), many vaccinations do create lifelong immunity for most people. At the same time, titers cost a lot of money to do, and considering the evidence for vaccinations and the immunity that they create, the costs become prohibitive.

    Like

  211. July 23, 2014 at 8:05 am

    Relevant Database Sections

    Diseases
    Acute Flaccid Paralysis : CK(3) : AC(1)
    Anorexia: Illness and Vaccine Induced : CK(10) : AC(1)
    Guillain-Barre Syndrome : CK(84) : AC(14)
    Non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP) : CK(12) : AC(1)
    Polio: Vaccine-Related : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Poliomyelitis : CK(33) : AC(4)
    Vaccination: Abortion : CK(40) : AC(14)
    Vaccine-induced Toxicity : CK(1169) : AC(180)

    Anti Therapeutic Actions
    Vaccination: Adult Rubella : CK(24) : AC(5)
    Vaccination: All : CK(3934) : AC(312)
    Vaccination: Animal Model : CK(39) : AC(16)
    Vaccination: Anthrax : CK(62) : AC(8)
    Vaccination: Anti-Fertility : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Vaccination: BCG (Tuberculosis) : CK(33) : AC(4)
    Vaccination: Combinations : CK(20) : AC(2)
    Vaccination: Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus : CK(282) : AC(31)
    Vaccination: GMO Vaccines : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Vaccination: Haemophilus Influenzae : CK(32) : AC(4)
    Vaccination: Hepatitis B : CK(367) : AC(50)
    Vaccination: Hexavalent : CK(6) : AC(2)
    Vaccination: HPV (Gardisil) : CK(105) : AC(13)
    Vaccination: Influenza : CK(356) : AC(37)
    Vaccination: Lyme disease : CK(11) : AC(2)
    Vaccination: Measles : CK(157) : AC(16)
    Vaccination: Mumps-Measles-Rubella (MMR) : CK(228) : AC(26)
    Vaccination: Nasal : CK(3) : AC(1)
    Vaccination: Oral Polio Vaccine : CK(10) : AC(1)
    Vaccination: Pertussis : CK(116) : AC(14)
    Vaccination: Plasmid DNA Vaccines : CK(3) : AC(2)
    Vaccination: Pneumococcal : CK(71) : AC(8)
    Vaccination: Polio : CK(94) : AC(15)
    Vaccination: Rabies : CK(4) : AC(3)
    Vaccination: Rotavirus : CK(33) : AC(6)
    Vaccination: Smallpox : CK(71) : AC(8)
    Vaccination: Streptococcus Pneumoniae : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Vaccination: Tetanus : CK(48) : AC(8)
    Vaccination: Varicella (Chicken pox) : CK(164) : AC(20)
    Vaccination: Yellow Fever : CK(13) : AC(2)

    Problem Substances
    Aluminum Hydroxide : CK(56) : AC(14)
    Boric Acid : CK(44) : AC(23)
    Calcium Phosphate : CK(6) : AC(4)
    Freund adjuvant : CK(21) : AC(11)
    Phenol : CK(2) : AC(2)
    Squalene, Adjuvant : CK(2) : AC(1)
    Thimerosal : CK(216) : AC(23)
    Tween 80 : CK(2) : AC(1)
    Vaccine Adjuvants : CK(403) : AC(79)

    Additional Keywords
    Adjuvant-Induced Injury : CK(11) : AC(6)
    Contraceptive Vaccines : CK(6) : AC(3)
    Diploid Cell Vaccines : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Edible Vaccines : CK(14) : AC(12)
    Flying Vaccines : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Hepatitis B Vaccine : CK(30) : AC(2)
    HPV Vaccine : CK(10) : AC(1)
    Iatrogenic Poliomyelitis : CK(20) : AC(2)
    Immunosuppressive Flu Vaccines : CK(20) : AC(2)
    Influenza Vaccine : CK(10) : AC(1)
    Plant Vaccines : CK(1) : AC(1)
    Thimerosal : CK(3) : AC(2)
    Vaccine Research : CK(20) : AC(1)
    Vaccine Resistance : CK(11) : AC(2)
    Latest Relevant Article
    After infection with influenza antibody titers were higher in naturally infected patients than in vaccine recipients.
    Click here to read the entire abstract

    Pubmed Data : Clin Vaccine Immunol. 2011 May ;18(5):867-73. Epub 2011 Mar 16. PMID: 21411604
    Article Published Date : Apr 30, 2011
    Study Type : Human Study
    Additional Links
    Diseases : Influenza A : CK(305) : AC(73)
    Additional Keywords : natural infection/immunity
    Anti Therapeutic Actions : Vaccination: Influenza : CK(356) : AC(37)

    Like

  212. July 23, 2014 at 8:11 am

    1Hepatitis B vaccine induces apoptotic death in Hepa1-6 cells. Apoptosis. 2012 Jan 17. Epub 2012 Jan 17. PMID: 22249285

    2Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2011(3):CD007879. Epub 2011 Mar 16. PMID: 21412913

    3 Postgrad Med J. 2006 Mar;82(965):207-10. PMID: 16517803

    Like

  213. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    PMID 21411604 is:
    Clin Vaccine Immunol. 2011 May;18(5):867-73. doi: 10.1128/CVI.00555-10. Epub 2011 Mar 16.
    Differences in antibody responses of individuals with natural infection and those vaccinated against pandemic H1N1 2009 influenza.

    It says:

    The higher antibody level elicited by natural infection than by vaccination may be related to differences between antigen presentation by the intramuscular route of vaccination and mucosal viral replication in mucosal cells of the respiratory tract.

    In other words: those who get the actual disease are sicker than those who get the vaccine. so the vaccine is still safer than the disease.

    PMID 22249285 is:
    Apoptosis. 2012 May;17(5):516-27. doi: 10.1007/s10495-011-0690-1.
    Hepatitis B vaccine induces apoptotic death in Hepa1-6 cells.

    A test done on mouse liver cells in a petri dish. First humans are not mice, and you can make any cell die in a petri dish. It was done in China, so we can assume they are using one their versions of the vaccine, possibly not one of the two approved for pediatric use in the USA.

    PMID 21412913 is:
    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2011 Mar 16;(3):CD007879. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD007879.pub2.
    Hepatitis B vaccination during pregnancy for preventing infant infection

    So there is no research on HepB during pregnancy, so the infant vaccination is still the best strategy.

    PMID 16517803 is:
    Postgrad Med J. 2006 Mar;82(965):207-10.
    Acute hepatitis B in the era of immunisation: pitfalls in the identification of high risk patients.

    So a bunch of folks born before there was a birth HepB vaccine (average age was 36, this was done ten years ago, so people born in 1960s and 1970s) can have naturally transmitted acute hepatitis B. Since birth HepB only started a little over twenty years ago, you will still see patients with acute hepatitis B.

    Which one of these shows a vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease?

    Like

  214. KJAI
    July 23, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    This whole article is so laughable! LOLOLO. IT is actually so ridiculous that I truly WAS laughing out loud. If someone actually had the audacity to ask me something like this and imply my kids were carrying a disease simply because they were not vaccinated, I would be super happy that they exposed themselves as what they are: close minded idiots whom I would rather not have as an influence in my children’s lives.
    The FACT remains that it is higher educated people who choose to forgo vaccines for various reasons. We are not ‘disillusioned’, or ‘confused’, or ‘ignorant’, We are a group of mostly highly educated adults who have made a different choice for various reasons.
    I love how in this comment thread every pro vaccine response pretty much consists of the person calling other people (whom they have never met) liars. You want to tell me my first born isn’t vaccine damaged? Well I invite you to come over and see what it is like when he has an auto-immune flare up and cannot even walk at 12 years of age because of his arthritis. How strange that he has allergies to every single thing he was in contact with (we lived in a very specific environment that summer for work) the summer he had his afebrile seizure 24 hours after his 6 month shots.
    You will never convince us that vaccines are safe. If you don’t want your children being exposed to non-vaccinated children, you better invest in a bubble for them! The decision to forgo or use selective delayed vaccination is one many more parents are making. You will never know who has or who hasn’t, and asking makes you look like the ignorant one.

    Like

  215. July 23, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    All the same old, stupid, tired arguments from the pro vaxxers. So tired of people who deny the facts and keep asking for studies! I would assume Chris is a paid vaccine advocate, because everything said is a lie or a manipulation. Yes, vaccines shed, yes, you can get the disease from the shot (my daughter got measles right after MMR and also rheumatoid arthritis for life as a little side dish-this is a side effect for thousands of children every year-proven fact), and YES vaccines damage millions of kids each year in 100 different ways. The information is all there-anyone who denies it is a fool (or paid to deny it). Protect your kids, let their immune systems work the way they are supposed to, not become miswired and weak from injected poisons.

    Like

  216. Gray Falcon
    July 23, 2014 at 1:11 pm

    KJAI: We didn’t call anyone liars, we only said that they were mistaken. Your overly specific denial has been noted.

    Like

  217. July 23, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    Non-vax children are so much healthier and have so much less sickness that it is a ridiculous notion to even ask the question. Anyone who would ask this is a total misfit anyway, I would never answer them, it’s none of their business. It’s a complete infringement of a person’s rights.

    Like

  218. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    Lee Nelson: “I would assume Chris is a paid vaccine advocate, because everything said is a lie or a manipulation.”

    Yawn, it is old, stupid, tired and boring Pharma Shill Gambit. How about doing different, like actually producing verifiable evidence for you claims.

    So quote my “lie or manipulation.” and provide the documentation that is inaccurate. Plus provide the actual factual verifiable documentation for this statement: “YES vaccines damage millions of kids each year in 100 different ways.”

    KJAI: “You want to tell me my first born isn’t vaccine damaged?….he had his afebrile seizure 24 hours after his 6 month shots.”

    No. Though you could tell us how well it went with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, because it sounds like a Vaccine Table Injury.

    Also has your child gone through a genetic screen? I know they are not always useful. My oldest as a severe genetic heart condition in which there are eighteen known genetic sequences that cause it. None of them showed up when they did a screen, so he has possibly the nineteenth or fiftieth sequence they will eventually find that causes the abnormal heart muscle growth.

    Like

  219. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    lee nelson: “Anyone who would ask this is a total misfit anyway, I would never answer them, it’s none of their business.”

    Even though if your child is harboring a pertussis or measles infection they could cause real injury to a baby or someone going through cancer treatment. This makes you not a nice person.

    You also seem to hang out with like minded persons since you claim “(my daughter got measles right after MMR.” Since the incubation is about two weeks, she must have been infected by someone else before the MMR vaccine.

    “It’s a complete infringement of a person’s rights.”

    You must be fun going through the security checkpoints in airports and international borders. And definitely a family that my kids are better off staying away from.

    Like

  220. reissd
    July 23, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    @ Lee Nelson: Let’s start with the fact that another individual cannot violate your rights. The government can, but not an individual. If an individual was unwilling to answer such a question, I’d simply assume that the answer is that their children are unvaccinated – and that they’re uncomfortable with it, knowing it’s the wrong decision.

    The only evidence for different outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated children that I”ve seen is that the unvaccinated have higher rates of VPDs – and higher rates of SiDS. Both findings repeated across studies.

    Like

  221. reissd
    July 23, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    “The FACT remains that it is higher educated people who choose to forgo vaccines for various reasons. We are not ‘disillusioned’, or ‘confused’, or ‘ignorant’, We are a group of mostly highly educated adults who have made a different choice for various reasons.”

    Being well educated does not make you omnipotent, though it can make you arrogant. I don’t pretend to think I know better than my computer scientist husband about computers, and I won’t pretend to know more than an immunologist about vaccines. That would be both arrogant and not particularly smart.

    I’d suggest that the arguments made here – misunderstanding shedding; misunderstanding statistics; do not suggest good understanding of the topic.

    Like

  222. Gray Falcon
    July 23, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    Lee Nelson, consider the following statement: “People who are cupped and bled are so much healthier and have so much less sickness that it is a ridiculous notion to even ask the question.”

    Science does not advance by simply accepting statements as obvious. We would never have developed the airplane or the telephone if we kept that attitude.

    Like

  223. Tim Harley
    July 23, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    Should parents ask all the teachers at their children’s school about their vaccination status on all sixteen VPDs, as well as all the janitors, librarians, and cafeteria workers? All the people who sit near them at church? The checkers at the supermarket? Everyone at the playground, both adults and children? And then, if anyone admits that, because of fears of vaccine damage, she or her children are NOT up on their vaccines, does that mean that you should lock your child in his room, never to emerge? Or are you just tring to prepare the way for coerced vaccination with as widespread public support as possible of as many as possible, who cares about the damage done?

    Like

  224. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 2:14 pm

    Mr. Harley, see the comment posted by reissd on July 22, 2014 at 1:38 pm.

    Because I had to protect an infant from pertussis during a pertussis outbreak, one just avoids certain areas. So go read the article again, and notice is was for things like close contact play dates.

    Also stay away from open flames with all that straw.

    Like

  225. Gray Falcon
    July 23, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    Tim Harley, here’s a question: What would you do if you knew someone in your neighborhood was an extremely unsafe driver, often speeding and running lights and stop signs, but refused to acknowledge the fact? Would you just let him do what he wants, saying it’s his choice? Would you keep your children locked in their rooms? Or would you try to do something about him?

    Like

  226. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 2:36 pm

    @simply

    Most of the points have been addressed by Chris, so I must assume that at the very least you did not eve bother to read your “cites” or just pasted and copied from an anti-vax site. This makes at the very least misguided or at the worst actively trying to deceive others here. But then again, from your previous posts using the pharma shill gambit, as well as using unwarranted attacks, I would have to assume the latter.

    @kjai

    [citation needed] for your assertions, since they fly in the face of actual science

    @lee

    You do know the saying “Your rights stop at the end of my nose. right?” Also, you and your ilk keep repeating the same old pseudoscience, lies and nonsense, when it keeps being debunked by science and reality, it does get repetitive.

    Like

  227. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 3:25 pm

    “Tim Harley, here’s a question: What would you do if you knew someone in your neighborhood was an extremely unsafe driver, often speeding and running lights and stop signs, but refused to acknowledge the fact? Would you just let him do what he wants, saying it’s his choice? Would you keep your children locked in their rooms? Or would you try to do something about him?”

    There is a difference. If a child is known to be carrying a disease (vaccinated or not), there are steps put in place for safety. Just as there as steps that are put into place for someone who is an unsafe driver and disobeying the laws. You can not compare a healthy child that is not carrying an illness to a driver that is blatantly disobeying the LAW, (it is not the law to be vaccinated with proper exemptions). Your analogy is comparing an unsafe driver to a known sick child (again vaccinated or unvaccinated)

    Like

  228. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    “You can not compare a healthy child that is not carrying an illness…”

    How would you know since many diseases are infectious prior to symptoms? Do you have some kind of superpower that lets you see if a child without symptoms is infectious?

    I feel horrible that my then three year old may have spread chicken pox at a local mall on Halloween. His first pox popped out on Nov. 1st. And a few years later the same child was only found to be harboring a strep infection without any symptoms. Well, there was one symptom: he kept reinfecting his two siblings. They would get better with antibiotics, and then get strep throat again!

    So how do you know a child is not infectious? Tell us your secret.

    Like

  229. Marienne Branch
    July 23, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    I’m uninformed on this issue. My question is are vaccinated children at risk from unvaccinated children? I ask because it seems that the vaccine provides protection from the infection possibly carried by unvaccinated children.

    Like

  230. reissd
    July 23, 2014 at 4:35 pm

    Marienne, no vaccine is 100% effective, though childhood vaccines are very effective, in the 70-99% range. If my child is in the 1% that is not protected, I’d rather he did not get a disease because someone else did not vaccinate.

    It’s even worse when someone’s child is unprotected because they have cancer or a transplant – and then the diseases are a very high risk for them. Hope this helps.

    Like

  231. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 5:16 pm

    “Do you have some kind of superpower that lets you see if a child without symptoms is infectious?”

    How do you know a vaccinated child is not harboring infections and spreading them? Just because a child is vaccinated does not mean they do not spread the disease.

    Like

  232. Lawrence
    July 23, 2014 at 5:38 pm

    @BMS – they are less likely to, that’s for sure.

    Like

  233. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    @bms

    [citation needed]

    Like

  234. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 5:52 pm

    “Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.”
    http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article

    Like

  235. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 5:53 pm

    This is pretty common knowledge among the medical community.

    Like

  236. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    “Acellular pertussis vaccines protect against disease but fail to prevent infection and transmission in a nonhuman primate model”
    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/20/1314688110.abstract

    Like

  237. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    “Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11).”

    Hence the creation of the Tdap vaccine. BMS, have you ever had a tetanus booster?

    Also, you left out some of the quote: “…The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.”

    Why did you remove “whole-cell” from that sentence? Is this an indication of your general honesty?

    “transmission in a nonhuman primate model”

    A very important notation.

    Still both are evidence of how important it is to have good community immunity. Two important citations that are counter to your statements:
    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story
    and
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children

    And you still have not answered how you would know if any kid was infectious without any symptoms.

    Like

  238. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 6:44 pm

    I should add that just like strep infections, immunity for pertussis does wain even if you spent coughing up a lung for three months from the actual disease:
    Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.

    So community immunity is very important. Though that does not help for tetanus, which you can get again right if you are not one of the one in five that dies from it. So, BMS, how current are you on your tetanus boosters?

    Like

  239. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    I thoroughly answered your questions, yet you fail to want to accept the literature. That is on you. My statement still stands that vaccinated individuals can spread infection. I have not had a vaccination since 1985 and that will not change in my life time.

    Like

  240. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    @bms

    Apparently, you failed to read the literature that you linked to, as Chris pointed out the “selective editing” that you did in your quote, which Chris has pointed out. You also have not answered Chris’ questions which we are still waiting for an answer.

    That means that you are misrepresenting your beliefs, or are lying to us.

    Also, you are entitled to your beliefs, but not to your own facts. The facts have been pointed out to you, yet you cling to your fallacy, which is entirely on you, not Chris.

    Like

  241. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    Lol, you all are grasping at straws at this point. I guess no one can be considered as “healthy” in the population if you are going to go by Chris’s assumptions. In addition I did not edit anything I copied and pasted from an article, then proceeded to find a link you both would consider instead of the original link I c&péd from. My facts come from the CDC as linked above. Why in the world would I leave out “whole cell”? Again until you become open minded and accept the literature instead of cherry picking what you what to read and hear your one way thinking will never broaden.

    Like

  242. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 7:58 pm

    BMS: “I thoroughly answered your questions, yet you fail to want to accept the literature. ”

    Not really. Especially since none of those cites show that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases or that you can detect if a child is infectious before there are symptoms. They also do not counter the studies I posted, even the one that compared the experience of different pertussis strategies of several countries (the USA was compared to Canada, Norway was compared to Sweden, and Japan’s 1970s experience of having more babies die when they succumbed to anti-vaccine rhetoric).

    “In addition I did not edit anything I copied and pasted from an article, then proceeded to find a link you both would consider instead of the original link I c&péd from.”

    I clicked on that CDC link about a pertussis outbreak in Israel, which does still uses the whole-cell DTP vaccine. Plus the last DTP on their schedule is at twelve months, not age 4/5 years like the USA, so it is really not an equivalent comparison (and it does show that boosters are important).

    I then did a search on what you quoted to see the quote in context. It was there that I noticed the phrase “whole-cell” which you seemed to have removed. Anyone can go click on the link you provided and see what you removed. It is an indication of your general veracity.

    Like

  243. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 8:11 pm

    “Especially since none of those cites show that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases or that you can detect if a child is infectious before there are symptoms.”
    A) You never asked me to links cites showing that vaccines are more dangerous than diseases. This is the first time I am reading this directed towards me.
    B) I never stated that a child could be detected with an infection before symptoms. I stated a healthy child with no illness.

    I provided a link that I did not c&p from but did not edit anything. Plus you can make all the assumptions you want, but that doesnt mean it is true. So go for it.

    Those straws are becoming scarce aren’t they?

    Like

  244. July 23, 2014 at 8:14 pm

    It is exactly the opposite…I do not want healthy unvaxxed kids around toxic vaccinated kids…

    Like

  245. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 8:14 pm

    Bottom line, I will not vaccinate my children including myself. I have read all the literature one can read over the last 7 years, I have taken and successfully completed graduate level courses in pharmacology and immunology. Nothing you provide is something I haven’t read before.

    Like

  246. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 8:48 pm

    “A) You never asked me to links cites showing that vaccines are more dangerous than diseases.”

    Except that I did in the comment I wrote on July 22, 2014 at 8:39 pm. You must have missed it. Though I have requested that information several times on this thread. While simplycaring tried, I am still waiting for an answer.

    “B) I never stated that a child could be detected with an infection before symptoms. I stated a healthy child with no illness.”

    To which I asked you specifically how you can tell a child is healthy, multiple times. Starting with my comment posted at July 23, 2014 at 4:12 pm. You just kept dodging that by trying to deflect it by restating it for “vaccinated”, even though I did not specify vaccine status.

    Which is why I posted an actual paper that show a child who is not vaccinated is much more likely to get a vaccine preventable disease and spread infections. I still want to know how you can if a child is sick before they show symptoms.

    Ms. King: “I do not want healthy unvaxxed kids around toxic vaccinated kids…”

    Citation needed to prove that kids who are vaccinated are “toxic.” Of course anyone who describes any child as “toxic” is someone else I would have my kids avoid. It is not healthy for children to be exposed to adults who say nasty things about others.

    Like

  247. BMS
    July 23, 2014 at 9:01 pm

    ” I still want to know how you can if a child is sick before they show symptoms.”
    I never stated that. So I am not going to answer something I never stated. Here is the definition of health according to WHO “Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.” How would you determine a healthy child, who determines a child is healthy?

    Like

  248. vaxfree
    July 23, 2014 at 9:39 pm

    This is just funny. One thing I’ve noticed; Computer personalities don’t translate to real world personalities..

    If herd immunity exist, natural immunity counts. So the kids may not be vaccinated but have fully recovered from the wild virus. Can our kids play now? Oh pretty please?

    The soccer lady had me rolling. I’m the coach. Pull your kid. See if I care.

    I may or may not answer you honestly. Depends on where we are and why it’s being asked. Because it’s none of anyone’s business.

    I can’t ever figure out why you preach the herd immunity theory and then blame the vaccine free. Vaccine compliance is the highest it’s ever been and your kids are still getting the diseases.

    I’ve seen it in my own community and media reports year after year. So should I thank my neighbor for being utd and yet still getting pertussis. He had to take 6 wks off of work, coughed himself into unconsciousness several times and took round after round of abx. At least he was vaccinated.

    My kids recovered in less than a month. It was just a cough! Confirmed dx, no abx. Just old fashioned remedies that actually work. My bf baby never even got it. I know I know anecdotal.

    Like

  249. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 10:05 pm

    BMS: “I never stated that.”

    No you did not. You said “You can not compare a healthy child that is not carrying an illness…”

    So I wanted to know how do know that child is healthy and not carrying an illness? How would you know the child is not healthy if they are actually infectious and do not have any symptoms? I gave you two examples of a child who looked perfectly healthy but was spreading illnesses, and I can guarantee that child had not been vaccinated for either disease. He had chicken pox in 1994, a year before the vaccine was available in the USA, and there is no vaccine for strep throat.

    I asked you a logical question. The probability of a child who is not vaccinated having an infection of a vaccine preventable disease is much higher than those who have been vaccinated. That is not an opinion, but a fact that has been studied. I included one of those studies in my comments. Also, children who are not vaccinated tend to cluster together, which is why outbreaks most often occur in those communities. Also measles, chicken pox, etc have incubation periods where the child is infectious but has no symptoms. I just want to know how you can tell the difference between a “healthy” child and one that looks “healthy” but is actually infectious.

    You don’t have to answer, your reaction to the question is all we need to know. You don’t have that superpower and have no qualms about infecting vulnerable people.

    vaxfree, there is a reason we don’t rely on anecdotes. Especially when you have no understanding of community immunity. It cannot exist solely on “natural immunity” because naive babies are born every day. So you’ll excuse us if we really don’t care about your opinion.

    Like

  250. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 10:19 pm

    @bms

    Nice to see that you are resorting to insults and fake credentials to support your unfounded assertions, since you cannot support your assertions, as well as not answering Chris’ questions.

    We can assume that since you cannot support your assertions throughout all your posts, as well as actively lying in your posts, that you admit that all you have said here was a lie and that you admit that vaccinations are beneficial and help in preventing VPDs.

    Of course, since you have been proven a liar, anyone can see that you are grasping at nonexistent straws.since you have no logical argument to speak of.

    @vaxfree

    Since you seem to be so fond of anecdotes, how about mine, where I volunteer at a hospital, and saw firsthand patients suffering from pertussis, one so bad that it broke his ribs, and another who had permanent lung damage, all of them unvaccinated either due to choice or because they were too young to receive the vaccination and were near someone who had the disease I know that they and their families would really would tell you how pleasant the whole experience was.

    Like

  251. jgc56
    July 23, 2014 at 10:51 pm

    “I do not want healthy unvaxxed kids around toxic vaccinated kids…”

    Citation needed: please provide credible evidence that vaccination renders children more ‘toxic’, as compared to unvaccinated children.

    Like

  252. jgc56
    July 23, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    “I have read all the literature one can read over the last 7 years, I have taken and successfully completed graduate level courses in pharmacology and immunology.”

    If you actually do have a graduate level understanding of immunology as you claim, yet you have elected to opt out of complyiance with the recommended childhood vaccination schedule, I can only presume you’re doing so because you’re aware of some actual evidence demonstrating the risks associated with vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

    Let’s see some.

    Like

  253. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 11:06 pm

    “Citation needed: please provide credible evidence that vaccination renders children more ‘toxic’, as compared to unvaccinated children.”

    And yet another study showing the only difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated children the the latter get more vaccine preventable diseases: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents. Add that to the two I posted on July 23, 2014 at 6:34 pm (we can no longer find the direct link to comments, so I just cut and paste the time stamp).

    I suspect that BMS “completed graduate level courses in pharmacology and immunology” at a naturopathic college or some non-accredited online or mail order institution. This is perhaps why he/she simply does not understand that a child can look healthy but still be infectious. Though I suspect the reality is more closely related to “whole-cell” missing from a direct “cut and paste.” Though another explanation is that he/she did a cut and paste from some anti-vaccine website and simply did not know the quote was edited.

    Like

  254. Chris
    July 23, 2014 at 11:21 pm

    “simply did not know the quote was edited.”

    Which is why you should always check the links and verify the quotes. I recently learned that one study I posted had a URL change to its free online version. It went from one University of Georgia to another UGA site. It was this one:
    Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):356-61.
    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story.

    In short do not blindly follow the stuff you see on any website. Simplycaring should have read the links he/she posted, and BMS should have actually checked the listed site and quote.

    Like

  255. Tim
    July 23, 2014 at 11:34 pm

    So if vaccines are 70-90% effective, that means 10-30% of children may be contagious even if they are vaxed. Most adults do not keep up with our boosters at all, either from carelessness or conviction. So during an outbreak, probably 70% of adults may be capable of catching and spreading the disease, especially if it’s something like pertussis. So your choice is to offend everyone around you by asking about their vaccination status, or to just live in the world and take your chances. You are definitely not going to be able to force 99% of the unvaxed people you talk to to bend to your will, but you will p- them off.

    Like

  256. novalox
    July 23, 2014 at 11:44 pm

    @tim

    I see that you are going for the nirvana fallacy, which states that if something is not 100% effective or safe, then it shouldn’t be used.

    First of all, 70%-90% effectiveness is a heck of a lot better than 0%, which is the case for unvaccinated. Second of all, your statement implies that people should get boosters for themselves, which is a good thing, since some vaccinations (e.g TDaP) ca wear off after some time.

    Finally, to reduce your argument reducio ad absurdium, since you think that something has to be 100% effective or safe in order to use it, I would assume that you do not eat, drink, or breathe, since there is always a small chance that you will choke on some food, drown by drinking something, or breathe in some toxic fumes. Or in another case, you shouldn’t be using a computer to type or post at all since there is a small chance that you will electrocute yourself.

    Like

  257. pharmi
    July 24, 2014 at 1:28 am

    @ novalox – You stated that “many vaccinations do create lifelong immunity for most people”. There are only a couple vaccines that are touted to last a “lifetime” or “a very long time” by the CDC. In fact, numerous recent studies by top researchers have found that many vaccines wane much faster than reported by the CDC and other health organizations. This was the subject at a meeting of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. A major study revealed at the meeting found that “The efficacy of the fifth dose of DTaP wanes by more than 50% per year.” Irini Daskalaki, MD, of the Philadelphia Department of Public Health and Dr. James Cherry (Professor of Pediatric Infectious Diseases at the University of California, Los Angeles) also presented data that backs these findings. The credibility of these findings has forced the CDC to acknowledge the discrepancy and they are now conducting their own study as a result. Another major study revealed at a recent meeting of the Infectious Diseases Society found that the current MMR vaccine wanes much faster than previously thought (less than 15 years in some individuals) and “insufficient titers of HI and IgG antibodies to measles were found in roughly one third of the fully vaccinated teenagers tested…the findings suggest that secondary vaccine failure “waning immunity” was responsible for the lowered immunity in these individuals, instead of primary vaccine failure.” This is very alarming, especially considering that the MMR vaccine is one of the only vaccines the CDC says “lasts a very long time” and is nearly “100% effective”. I also have no reason to doubt these findings as they pretty much mirror what we’re seeing at the hospital – with even more alarming numbers for the older individuals that are tested. To make matters worse, three of my coworkers had to get more than one dose of the MMR vaccine before showing a sufficient titer level. And for the record, I also failed the measles titer test (among others) even though I was fully vaccinated as a child.

    You are misinformed regarding the cost of titers. You no longer need a prescription for titer tests and there are now MANY labs administering them for very reasonable prices. Theranos is one that I highly recommend (www.theranos.com) – I urged my wife to go there for two separate titer tests, and much to her surprise, she failed both of them (she was vaccinated and they were supposed to provide “long-term” immunity). What alarms me is that there are very few articles and almost no media attention addressing this issue. The results I’ve seen from the required titer tests at the hospital are shocking – mainly because all of the individuals tested were fully vaccinated as children. I would love to know the actual number of adults in the US that are no longer protected by their childhood vaccines. Again, I urge any adult that hasn’t kept up with their shots to get tested as soon as possible.

    Like

  258. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 2:00 am

    @pharmi

    Please post citations for your assertions. I can understand that as people age, the immune system can react slower and people can become more vulnerable to infection, but then again, this increases the need to have people immunized in order to maintain herd immunity to protect those who cannot get immunized and those whose immune status may be in question.

    Also, I had to take titers in my past, and they did cost around $250, so that was what I based my experience on.

    Like

  259. laura
    July 24, 2014 at 3:16 am

    So I’m going to through this out there. I’m wondering why it is OK to ask someone about their child’s medical history, especially some stranger at the park, soccer game, ect. All the HIPPA junk I have to sign at the doctor’s office pretty much says a person’s medical status is no one’s business. I think we would all agree it would be very inappropriate for a parent to wall up to another patent at a soccer game and say, “Hey, I try to make sure that my kids and other family members are protected. Do your children have HIV? I wouldn’t wanty child to play with yours if they do.” “Do your kids wash their hands for the recommened amount of time after using the bathroom. I don’t want them to touch my child if not (eventhough we practice very good hygiene).” “Is your son circumcised? I am very concerned about my daughter’s health. If he is/isn’t, that could cause problems. I would not be able to let him marry my daughter” Quite hhonestly, it’s not really any of my business what you decide to do or not do for your children’s health. Just like it’s not any of your business what I choose to do for my children’s health. Such a rude invasion of privacy.

    Like

  260. laura
    July 24, 2014 at 3:19 am

    And sorry for all the crazy typos. Not easy to type on my phone with a sleeping baby in my arms.

    Like

  261. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:22 am

    HIPAA protects you against your medical provider disclosing your medical information. It does not mean you cannot disclose it. A stranger asking you can’t force you to answer of course, so it’s still your choice how much to disclose. But frankly, if I asked the question and a parent was unwilling to answer, I’d assume the children were unvaccinated (and the parent, knowing on some level that’s a bad decision, was either ashamed or not confident in it). And I’d react accordingly.

    And actually, yes, I think it’s fair to ask other parents questions before allowing your children to play together (if you try to control who your child marries, that’s a different problem, and your child is the first one that should tell you to butt out). I don’t want my children to play in a house where there’s a loaded gun. And there’s a variety of reasons to want to know if someone else’s children are at higher risk of disease. For example, I would really not want unvaccinated children near a pregnant woman or a newborn. The risk is higher.

    The main victims of the decision not to vaccinate are the unvaccinated children themselves, and it’s a shame to add to that. But people deserve the ability to protect their children.

    Like

  262. BMS
    July 24, 2014 at 8:28 am

    In the end you don’t know me from Joe Schmoe and vice versa. You have no grounds to make accusations of the credibility of my credintials. It’s more likely that a certain group of posters are childless and have been hired by pharm companies or organizations to troll these sites and bully posters that don’t have the same beliefs as them. Hope it’s worth the money.

    Just remeber the next you step on a plane you just might be sitting beside an unvaccinated family. I’d never leave my seat but you are more than welcome to vacate the plane and attempt to catch another flight. Good luck trying to find another seat as the last few times I have flown with my family flights are full!

    Like

  263. July 24, 2014 at 9:19 am

    How about these credentials, I graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy in 1989, completed 1 year of hospital pharmacy residency in 1991, graduated from podiatry school in 1999. Unfortunately, I received the hepatitis b vaccine December 1995 and within 3 weeks had pronounced optic neuritis, within 3 months had bilateral thigh numbness, and ultimately got the diagnosis of multiple sclerosis triggered by the hepatitis b vaccine. There are inherent dangers in vaccines. Here’s one possible theory http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15908138 I can list a pile of studies. This is all I do now that I can not perform surgery due to the depth perception disorder, along with the pupillary afferent defect in my left eye, loss of color vision left, and only partial vision in my right eye. Incidentally, all of the podiatry students were read the package insert from the hep b vaccine manufacturer and it stated that “this vaccine does not cause multiple sclerosis”. Today multiple sclerosis is listed as a rare adverse event on the hepatitis b vaccine package inserts. There is no legal recourse for those of us suffering these severe vaccine injuries. The vaccine manufacturers are immune from litigation, even if the products they manufacture are contaminated and cause severe damage to those vaccinated.
    Before the progression of MS, I met a patient, a gentleman who had a below the knee amputation from what looked like severe PVD. Was he a smoker? Nope, totally healthy, hard working man who’s life changed almost immediately after the flu shot and subsequent GBS. He never received a penny in compensation for his injury. He was unable to work again after his flu shot.
    Have you seen this one: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/08/swine-study-suggests-flu-vaccination-may-sometimes-backfire Personally, I have never received a flu vaccine and I am happy to say that I have immunity from the “wild virus”. So do all of my family members. I have taken the immunizing pharmacist coursework so I do understand the need to push these products for pharmacists to keep their job. But outside of a work situation, I believe that all US citizens deserve the right to vaccine freedom of choice.
    If you want more research, let me know. I have all the time in the world now that the hepatitis b vaccine robbed me of the ability work.
    I would like to push for more research into the cause of vaccine injury. Interesting how thalidomide was such a scandal, yet severe vaccine injuries, including death, go on like it’s no big deal, with little research into the etiology.

    Like

  264. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 9:24 am

    A. Multiple sclerosis is not caused by the Hepatitis B vaccine. Large scale, well controlled epidemiological studies examined whether the Hepatitis B vaccines causes multiple sclerosis and found no link. There is also no biological plausibility to that claim. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.full.pdf. If you actually have studies showing such a link – not theories, actual studies – please provide them.

    B. Adverse events on the inserts do not show causation. Manufacturers list anything reported to them, caused by the vaccine or not. Here is an explanation. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/

    C. The 1976 swine flu vaccine was found to cause, very rarely, GBS. Of course, influenza itself causes it more frequently. But if you have scientific evidence for such an association from the modern influenza vaccine, I’d like to see it.

    Vaccines do have risks, but those are much smaller than the risks of not vaccinating, as the recent study showed: Margaret A. Maglione, et al., Safety of Vaccines Used for Routine Immunization of US Children: A Systematic Review, doi: 10.1542/peds.2014-1079 PEDIATRICS (2014).
    “CONCLUSIONS: We found evidence that some vaccines are associated with serious AEs; however, these events are extremely rare and must be weighed against the protective benefits that vaccines provide.”

    Like

  265. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 10:43 am

    @bms

    Ah, resorting to the old phama shill gambit, a sure sign that you have no argument and an admission that you have been lying to us the entire time. Your use of that ad hominem shows that you have no acrual facts and that you admit that your “credentials” are a lie as well.

    So, thank you for admitting that vaccines are safe and that people should take them in order to protect themselves and others. Your and the other antivaxxers cannot answer the questions posed to you and consistently refuse to show actual pertinent evidence for your assertion, why should any rational person believe you?

    Like

  266. Nina castle
    July 24, 2014 at 10:43 am

    This article is thoughtless propaganda
    .. You can’t go around asking people about their private medical records … None of your effing business!

    Like

  267. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 10:47 am

    I’m sorry, but it’s certainly my affair who my children play with. People have every right not to answer; and I have every right to draw conclusions if they won’t answer.

    Like

  268. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 10:48 am

    @nina

    Have you even read the article? Because your post looks like that you haven’t read it at all.

    Also, your foul language doesn’t lend your position any more credibility, not that it had any to begin with.

    Like

  269. Chris
    July 24, 2014 at 11:22 am

    BMS: “In the end you don’t know me from Joe Schmoe and vice versa. You have no grounds to make accusations of the credibility of my credintials.”

    Yes we do. One reason is that the phrase “whole-cell” was removed from a quote you claimed to have just cut and pasted, and another reason is that much of what you say about immunology is nonsense.

    If you don’t want your credibility and credentials questioned then you should honestly answer the questions with something that is at least recognizable as reality.

    Ms. Brown, if you had the background you claim, then you would know that the Hepatitis b vaccine is made from yeast, and cannot do what you claim it did.

    Like

  270. July 24, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    to be quite honest,,I think it is totally asinine for anyone to assume that a question that does not want to be answered or refused to answer means their children are unvaccinated and that they’re uncomfortable with it, knowing it’s the wrong decision,With such a higher education as some claim to have,wouldn’t it be more feasible to believe that it really is non of your business,,this is what i have found,,,,the more book smart a person is,,the less common sense they have,there are so many studies out there that contradict each other it is ,phenomenal,both sides of this argument are wrong,,why?According to the Constitution of the US,,,Everyone has a right to their beliefs,to dismiss another’s 1st,,4th and 5th Amendment right you dismiss your own

    Like

  271. JGC56
    July 24, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    “It’s more likely that a certain group of posters are childless and have been hired by pharm companies or organizations to troll these sites and bully posters that don’t have the same beliefs as them.”

    By what rational argument is it more likely? Walk us thorugh how you’ve arrived at that conclusion.

    “Just remeber the next you step on a plane you just might be sitting beside an unvaccinated family.”

    Which of course is an argument for imcreased compliance with routine vaccination–to reduce the likelihood you’d be placed at risk by sitting beside an unvaccinated family–but not an argument vaccines are unsafe, unnecessary or ineffective.

    Like

  272. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    “According to the Constitution of the US,,,Everyone has a right to their beliefs,to dismiss another’s 1st,,4th and 5th Amendment right you dismiss your own””

    Our constitution protects your rights against government interference. Another individual cannot violate your rights in that way – certainly a private individual asking you a question is not violating your rights.

    And actually yes, your comments strongly suggest that if someone doesn’t answer the question, the children are unvaccinated.

    There is actually a scientific consensus that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh their small risks.

    Like

  273. Chris
    July 24, 2014 at 2:41 pm

    The first words of the First Amendment is “Congress shall make no law…” We parents are not Congress. The Fourth is about searches and seizures by government entities, not parents asking questions at a playground. And the Fifth is again about rights of criminals under the law, not parents asking you questions.

    Did you even read those amendments? Wouldn’t it be common sense to understand what something says before referencing it in a discussion?

    Like

  274. JGC56
    July 24, 2014 at 2:41 pm

    Michael, no one is saying anyone doesn’t have a right to their beliefs, even in cases where those beliefs are demonstrably wrong. But if someone is going to refuse to answer a question that impacts the health of my children, I’ll err on the side of caution by presuming the answer they are witholding is the one that would confirm my child might be at risk–the same way that, if my family was traveling with someone else who responded with silence or “None of your business!” when asked if he was sober enough to to drive, my children and I would not get into the car.

    Like

  275. July 24, 2014 at 3:01 pm

    there is a difference to what you are trying to compare,,one illegal the other is not,,to presume my kids are not vaccinated because I don’t want to answer is asinine,,,for one,,,it is mandatory for a child to be vaccinated to be enrolled in school,which i don’t believe is right,,but that doesn’t matter,it is all about Government control,,,even though vaccines have helped more than they have harmed,it still does not make the ones harmed anymore obsolete,, segregation is against the law,for any reason,yet it is still applied today,this is just another form

    Like

  276. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:02 pm

    reissd, you should be ashamed of yourself! Tammy Brown tells you about her personal story and tragic experience and you go on like that? She gets MS from the Hep B vaccine and you have the nerve to tell her she is lying and inaccurate? You and your friends refuse to listen to people who have been inured by vaccines and that in itself is the whole problem with your line of thinking. You only want to look at “study’s” and not the very people that are injured by vaccines. Denial, denial, denial, wake up and look around and see what is happening, let go of your ego and start learning some things.

    Like

  277. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:09 pm

    I don’t remember claiming Ms. Brown was lying. But since the evidence is that the Hepatitis B vaccine does not cause MS, she is probably mistaken about that link. It would be a good idea for her to reconsider, and to avoid using a story that goes against the evidence to deter people from protecting children against disease.

    We can easily sympathize with someone suffering, but that doesn’t mean we have to uncritically accept claims that their suffering was caused by a vaccine when the evidence goes the other way.

    And when someone is using a vaccine injury story to deter others from vaccinating, that story should be carefully scrutinized. because not vaccinating means leaving children at risk of disease.

    Like

  278. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    reissd, Evidence? You don’t care about evidence, please don’t act like you do.
    You make my stomach turn, you are a very dangerous person with a gigantic ego.

    Like

  279. BMS
    July 24, 2014 at 3:16 pm

    Spin Caffe, They are internet bullies or quite possible one bully with multiple accounts, no one should conduct themselves the way that they do. They thrive off of attention like my 4 year old does, there is no difference between his childish attention seeking behavior and their juvenile behaviors.

    Like

  280. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:21 pm

    I would be willing to reconsider given credible evidence that Hepatitis B can cause MS. I note the lack of it in your comments.

    Like

  281. July 24, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    yes Chris,,i have read and understand the Constitution and the bill of rights,,they also have to applied with the Civil rights act of 1964,meaning no individual or entity has the right that you are suggesting you have,part of first Amendment,,the right to religious practice as long as no laws are broken,,part of Amendment 4,,,the right to be secure in their person,,you don’t have the right to make them feel un-secure(insecure),,,part of Amendment 5,the right to stay silent because what they may say could be used against them,,which you are doing,so don’t come at me because you think you know better,,I have seen you throughout this entire thread trying to preach your propaganda although what you put forth may be true,,,there are just as many “links” to contradict your belief,,but you see sir,,,you have that right,,and who am i to say you do not have the right to feel secure about what you believe,

    Like

  282. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    BMS, I am shocked with the attitude and arrogance. Nobody can say “absolutely” that XXX doesn’t contribute to XXX. Ridiculous! And anybody who thinks that way has a huge ego.

    Like

  283. BMS
    July 24, 2014 at 3:25 pm

    And as large as their ego’s are portrayed over the internet, very unlikely in the real world, I still will walk around with my unvaccinated children in the public and ultimately their is nothing their ego can do about that.

    I will stand behind you in the grocery line with my children, I will sit beside you with my children on an airplane, I will sit in a movie theater with my children while you sit in front of us, I will use a public restroom with my children right before you walk into the stall. So go ahead with your ego, you can not stop me and my family from the being in the public.

    Like

  284. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not govern social relations between individuals, either. It governs certain kinds of commercial relationships, or business relationships – employment etc’.

    And most people who don’t vaccinate do so because of (misguided) safety concerns, not religious reasons (some – a minority – do have religious reasons).

    Like

  285. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    reissd, Tammy Brown is evidence. But please keep disregarding the evidence right in front of your face. You truly make me sick.

    Like

  286. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    “And as large as their ego’s are portrayed over the internet, very unlikely in the real world, I still will walk around with my unvaccinated children in the public and ultimately their is nothing their ego can do about that.
    I will stand behind you in the grocery line with my children, I will sit beside you with my children on an airplane, I will sit in a movie theater with my children while you sit in front of us, I will use a public restroom with my children right before you walk into the stall. So go ahead with your ego, you can not stop me and my family from the being in the public.”

    I admit that I find it almost as strange for someone to proudly proclaim that they intend to expose others to the risk of diseases as it is for a parent to choose to leave their children unprotected against dangerous diseases.

    Like

  287. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    “Tammy Brown is evidence.” Ms. Brown thinks it was the vaccine which caused her harm. Thoughts and beliefs are not evidence. Especially on causation, people can be wrong. Here is an explanation of that: http://momswhovax.blogspot.co.il/2012/10/moms-who-vax-but-i-saw-it-with-my-own.html

    Like

  288. BMS
    July 24, 2014 at 3:34 pm

    “I admit that I find it almost as strange for someone to proudly proclaim that they intend to expose others to the risk of diseases as it is for a parent to choose to leave their children unprotected against dangerous diseases.”

    No just stating that I refuse to live in a bubble and will con’t daily activities with my children. Is it that you can can control this issue? That you can not decide who will receive vaccinations and it is completely out of your hands? Is that why you are so bitter towards others?

    When are you going to log into your other accounts and show as Chris or Novalax or Lawerence? Time to switch it up a bit.

    Like

  289. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm

    Yes reissd, people can be wrong, why don’t you open up to the possibilities? And my decision not to vaccinate my kids is definitely NOT misguided, there is no doubt it is the correct decision for my family.

    Like

  290. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:40 pm

    Imagining that the different commentators here are one is somewhat entertaining, but far-fetched.

    I hope herd immunity continues to protect your children from your decision, and am happy to do my share to protect unvaccinated children by protecting myself and my family.

    Like

  291. July 24, 2014 at 3:42 pm

    reiassd,The Civil rights act of 1964,,applies to all,,YOU(as an individual) do not have the right to discriminate against no matter how minute it may be

    Like

  292. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    Can you cite which part of the Civil Rights Act, 1964 says that? Section and words, please. As far as I know, that’s incorrect.

    Like

  293. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 3:49 pm

    @bms

    Ah, more false accusations and ad hominems, a sure sign that you admit that your argument is without merit. But thank you for admitting that your argument is inferior. Please, keep throwing around baseless accusations, it shows the utter poverty of your arguments.

    Also, thanks for admitting that you are a troll and internet bully as well.

    Like

  294. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 3:51 pm

    @spin

    [citation needed] for your assertions, since anecdotes cannot be considered evidence. The regulars have kept asking for evidence form the anti-vax trolls, but none have actually posted any.

    Like

  295. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:52 pm

    reissd, so not willing to open up to the possibilities? Because you are 100% certain “A” does not affect “B”? With that kind of thinking no wonder you are so misinformed.

    Also, you sound a little unsure about herd immunity? Is that because it doesn’t really exist? I could surmise it doesn’t exist (if I were closed minded like you) because most cases of whooping cough are within the vaccinated community. Not sure if this proves vaccines don’t work (and actually cause more damage) or if herd immunity doesn’t exist? Looking at that particular evidence, I’ll sate that both are true.

    Like

  296. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    @bms

    Also one other thing, you do know that making unsupported or false accusations against others is against the comment policy here and is grounds for banning here, right?

    Because your accusations of sockpuppetry against the regulars here, as well as your use of the pharma shill gambit, is false.

    Like

  297. Spin Caffee
    July 24, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    novalox, [citation needed] for your assertions.

    Like

  298. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 3:57 pm

    @spin
    [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are making stuff up. Because your assertions fly in the face of scientific fact.

    Like

  299. July 24, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    I have a question,,why don’t,,the next time you are out,,go to a person that is not of race and discriminate any way you see fit and see where that gets you seeing you think it does not apply to an individual,,,,as i stated before the Constitution and the bill of rights and the Civil acts coincide together,you can not look at one with out the other,,,learn something will you,I’m not saying you’re wrong in what you believe,as well as I’m not wrong either,I have also stated that there are just as many “links” suggesting that what you believe is wrong,,,but,,you have chose to overlook those and post the contradictions because it would ruin the credibility of your argument,,here is one

    http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/news/20040913/hepatitis-b-vaccine-may-be-linked-to-ms

    here is another

    http://www.neurology.org/content/63/5/838.abstract

    Like

  300. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    A. I’m happy to reconsider if provided credible evidence. You have provided none.

    B. Here is a list of studies showing the effect of herd immunity: https://www.facebook.com/notes/chillin-out-vaxin-relaxin-all-cool/published-studies-demonstrating-the-effect-of-herd-immunity/644388308958430

    C. While in absolute numbers more cases of pertussis are in the vaccinated, the unvaccinated are 9-23 times more likely to get the disease, and unvaccinated communities more vulnerable to outbreaks. See:
    Jason M. Glanz, et al., Parental Refusal of Pertussis Vaccination Is Associated With an Increased Risk of Pertussis Infection in Children, 123 PEDIATRICS 1446(2009).

    Saad B. Omer, et al., Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements: Secular Trends and Association of State Policies With Pertussis Incidence, 296 JAMA 1757(2006).

    Saad B. Omer, et al., Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis, 168 AMERICAN JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY 1389(2008).

    Aamer Imdad, et al., Religious Exemptions for Immunization and Risk of Pertussis in New York State, 2000–2011, PEDIATRICS (2013).

    D. Here is an explanation of relative risk that might help interested readers understand better the difference between absolute numbers and rates: http://www.thelymphosite.com/?p=307

    Like

  301. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 4:01 pm

    Neither the constitution nor the Civil Rights Act prevent a private individual to racially discriminate against another in a social context. You may refuse to go out to dinner with someone because of their race or refuse to let your child play with them.

    Like

  302. July 24, 2014 at 4:05 pm

    lets see how that works for you in a court of law

    Like

  303. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 4:06 pm

    @Michael Dunster, both the links refer to the same thing – Hernan et al’s study. The CDC’s pink book actually addressed that, explaining that: “A 2004 retrospective study in a British population found a slight increase in risk of MS among hepatitis B vaccine recipients. However, large popu- lation-based studies have shown no association between receipt of hepatitis B vaccine and either the development of MS or exacerbation of the course of MS is persons already diagnosed with the disease.” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/hepb.pdf.

    In other words, this relatively small study contradicts large one. What may explain the difference is the comment in your own WebMD link – “University of Washington neurology professor Anne H. Cross, MD, argues that the exclusion of so many MS patients in the analysis could have been a factor in the outcome. Of 713 MS cases identified, the researchers included only 163 in their study and just 11 of these developed first symptoms of MS within three years of vaccination.” – so, a smaller study, and a high number of exclusions.

    The large studies that go the other way are much stronger proof.

    Like

  304. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    “lets see how that works for you in a court of law” The answer to that is pretty clear. A suit based on social discrimination will be dismissed, since there’s no basis for it. There were some cases of successful tort suits for Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress based on discrimination, but all the ones I know of were in the work contexts and also involved discriminatory labor practices. And that is actually addressed specifically in the Civil Rights Act in Title VII.

    Like

  305. July 24, 2014 at 4:25 pm

    So,,you agree that your statement of there is no such link to hepatitis B vaccine and the risk of multiple sclerosis is inaccurate? I have stated as such,,,that it is a very small(rarity) portion of people that the Governing bodies overlook this,,however the fact remains that it is a hazard to certain individuals,therefore certain people have a right to not put themselves in harms way,,,,,,,Civil rights are rights that are bestowed by nations on those within their boundaries. A civil right is a right or privilege that can be enforced by an individual. This means that if a person violates another’s civil rights, it gives the later a right to an action for injury. – See more at: http://civilrights.uslegal.com/#sthash.gI7gFWzE.dpuf

    Like

  306. Gray Falcon
    July 24, 2014 at 4:28 pm

    Mr. Dunster, you would be more convincing if you knew how to use commas correctly. Now, here’s a question. Do I have a civil right to swing my fist into your face?

    Like

  307. reissd
    July 24, 2014 at 4:30 pm

    Both parts are incorrect.
    A. The small study you provided is contradicted by large scale studies.
    B. Civil rights do not require other individuals to socialize with you. They have rights too.

    Like

  308. BMS
    July 24, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    And you really think I would care if I got “banned”? Chris has made many false accusations towards myself, why are you not calling him out as well……. hmmmmm.

    Like

  309. Gray Falcon
    July 24, 2014 at 4:46 pm

    BMS: Which false accusations did Chris make? Be specific. Vague accusations might net you points in Age of Autism, but not here.

    Like

  310. July 24, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    oh you want to resort to violence because you were proven wrong Gray Falcon,,and to answer your idiotic question,,no,,you do not have a right to do physical bodily harm,,,,and yes,,,majority rules but that still does not excuse the facts of my statement,,you asked for links that said different,I did,,and your your B) statement has nothing to do with what I said,,you said an individual does not have a right to stop from discriminated against in a society for what they believe,whether your differ or not,,,again,, an inaccurate assumption

    Like

  311. Gray Falcon
    July 24, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    Michael, here’s my point. “Civil rights” are not an excuse to do whatever you want to. I was not threatening you, I was pointing that out. There are people who believe it is perfectly acceptable to stab people for annoying them, for example. We have every right to lock people up for that kind of belief.

    Like

  312. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 5:02 pm

    @bms

    Again, making up lies? Please point out the lies that Chris has made, since you have not refuted anything that she said. Your continuing refusal to answer Chris questions, as well as your unfounded accusations against the regulars, says a lot about the poverty of your argument and your lack of character.

    Please, keep posting. Your childish insults are an honor to me, as it means that you cannot actually produce a semi-coherent post here.

    @michael

    You still haven’t pointed out any flaws in Dorit’s posts regarding the utter inaccuracies in your argument, and your misinterpretation of Gray Falcon’s question and position makes me wonder about your honesty.

    Like

  313. July 24, 2014 at 5:05 pm

    Oh, yes! My kids are vaccinated, thanks for asking. There that’s easier for all of you isn’t it?

    Like

  314. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    @simply

    Words mean nothing if no actual action is taken. That you would resort to lying to cover up your choice of not vaccinating says a lot..

    Like

  315. July 24, 2014 at 5:10 pm

    yes,,i agree,,,those are crimes,,,but for someone that does not vaccinate their child or themselves is not,,that has been my point all along,,,no matter what they believe,they still have a right to,,I really don’t care either way because that is up to them for what ever reason,,,doesn’t matter if I agree with them or not and to assume an unanswered question automatically makes them guilty of ignorance is absurd,,and yes my kids are vaccinated but that don’t mean they aren’t just because I refuse to answer a question that really is not their business,especially if I don’t know them,

    Like

  316. July 24, 2014 at 5:17 pm

    novalox,,I never said there were flaws,,,I just pointed out the fact that its not a one sided,all domineering fact,,all i see throughout this whole thread is prove,prove prove,,I did,,,whats the problem?

    Like

  317. July 24, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    and novalox,,before you decide you want to call me a liar,,,It is mandatory for children to be vaccinated in the US to be in a public school,,,so most of the argument here is moot

    Like

  318. Gray Falcon
    July 24, 2014 at 5:28 pm

    Michael, the question is parents’ business, in the same way as “Do you intent to drive home drunk?” is everyone’s business.

    Like

  319. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 5:29 pm

    @michael

    The problem is that the flaws in your assertions were pointed out by Dorit, who also showed her evidence. You have shown only limited evidence and proof, as well as not addressed any of Dorit’s points.

    Also, any person can say anything they want. We would need proof here to back up your statements. For example, spin made an assertion that herd immunity doesn’t exist, which is directly contradictory to decades of scientific research, statistics, and mathematics. Since he/she/it brought up such an extraordinary claim, I asked for any proof to back up those assumptions, which to this point has not been done.

    The same thing applies here, your brought up assertions with limited evidence, Dorit showed the flaws in your argument with greater evidence, and so we wait for your response with any evidence that can pinpoint any flaws in her argument,

    Like

  320. pharmi
    July 24, 2014 at 5:40 pm

    @ novalox: “but then again, this increases the need to have people immunized in order to maintain herd immunity…”
    Exactly. It seems like Everyone is forgetting that ADULTS need to get immunized as well, as most adults are no longer protected by the majority of their childhood vaccinations. You can read the predicted length of immunity for each vaccine on the CDC’s own website. Astonishingly, a lot of the important ones, such as Pertussis, only lasts a few years. Taken from the CDC site: “Pertussis vaccines typically offer high levels of protection within the first 2 years of getting vaccinated, but then protection decreases over time. This is known as waning immunity. Similarly, natural infection may also only protect you for a few years.” (http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/faqs.html)
    I’m shocked at the number of “pro-vaxers” and even healthcare workers that are oblivious to the fact that most vaccines do, in fact, wane substantially over time. I was just talking about this with the head of pediatrics at Salinas Valley Memorial Hospital and he wholeheartedly shared my concern – he actually believes it’s the reason we’re seeing more outbreaks. While some of the diseases manifest themselves differently in adults (often with no symptoms at all), parents who are no longer immunized by their childhood shots can be carriers and transmit these illnesses JUST AS EASILY AS AN UNVAXED CHILD. From the CDC, “Many babies who get whooping cough are infected by parents, older siblings, or other caregivers who might not even know they have the disease.” (http://www.cdc.gov/features/pertussis/)

    Relating this back to the article above, not long ago we had a whooping cough (Pertussis) scare in my area. After dropping my child off at school one of the parents started a conversation with me and she mentioned an article on whooping cough that she read in the morning paper. She said she was scared to leave her son at school because she didn’t know if all the kids in his class were vaccinated. I casually mentioned that unless she recently got a DTaP or Tdap vaccine she was likely unprotected as well. She looked at me like I was some sort of conspiracy theorist nutjob and said “I’m not sure what you’re talking about but I had ALL the shots when I was younger. I know I’m covered.”
    I pretty much ended the conversation there because I told her the facts and she didn’t want to listen. She continued to point her finger at other people and refused to do something that would make her own family safer. This didn’t happen just once – this scenario has played out many times over the last several years and I find it very troubling. This needs to be addressed – I think part of it is that the medical establishment (I’m part of it, so I say this with a grain of salt) doesn’t want people to know that there have been so many adults unprotected by so many vaccines for such a long time (just think about the baby boomers alone) but that is certainly no excuse – and I HOPE it’s not the case, but I can’t think of many other reasons this isn’t talked about more widely. This is HUGE. Awareness IS KEY and I actually think it would make a great addition to the article above.

    Like

  321. July 24, 2014 at 5:44 pm

    Don’t know who Dorit is,unless reissd is one and the same,,,and just because y’all perceive as flaws is not my problem,,it was asserted that Hepatitis B vaccine does not cause MS and there was no proof of such,and anything that i have stated has not been proven flawed,I have also stated that because of the minute findings that they are overlooked as credible,, but that does not change that fact that there is evidence suggesting vaccinations do cause harm,just because someone or entity chooses to overlook this does not make it non existing

    Like

  322. novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    @pharmi

    Thanks for the links and for your post.

    As for your comments regarding pertussis, the current vaccine we have not (TDaP) does give immunity for a short time, but that is the reason that they hospital that I work at askes every person (patients, family, health care workers, volunteers, etc.) if they have had their boosters for pertussis. Considering that the area I live in just had a pertussis outbreak, and witnessing firsthand the effects of pertussis on people, I could certainly understand the concern and cautiousness.

    Like

  323. Gray Falcon
    July 24, 2014 at 5:51 pm

    Michael, could you please translate your posts into English? I can’t follow what you’re saying at all.

    Like

  324. July 24, 2014 at 5:55 pm

    learn how to read then

    Like

  325. pharmi
    July 24, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    So to sum up my last two long winded posts – this debate shouldn’t be between “anti-vaxers” and “pro-vaxers”. It should be between “anti-vaxers” and “pro-vaxers” that are up to date on all (or most) of the vaccines, which is actually quite rare unless you’re in the medical field.

    Like

  326. July 24, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    Pharmi,,I assume buy you name you are in pharmaceuticals,,I don’t know to many people that have got it to kick out 2500.00 to be fully vaxed as you say,I imagine A lot of folks may do it if it were more reasonable priced,but that is how money makers work,,push something out there that may not be needed,,,I think people pay enough taxes to be able to have this for free

    Like

  327. TDOG
    July 25, 2014 at 12:24 am

    Well, normal parents will just tell the crazy overprotective parents “what I do with my children’s health is my business.” Nuff said.

    Like

  328. Gray Falcon
    July 25, 2014 at 12:44 am

    TDOG: Is how much you had to drink before you drive your business alone as well?

    Like

  329. novalox
    July 25, 2014 at 2:03 am

    @michael

    You do know that there are federal programs (Vaccines for Children) that offer children reduced cost or free vaccines, right?

    You also do know what the profit margins for vaccines are for pharmaceutical companies compared to other medications?

    @tdog

    You do know the saying “Your rights end at my nose.”

    Like

  330. July 25, 2014 at 3:22 am

    Gray,,Again,, not vaccinating your child or yourself is not a crime,,you are comparing a probable crime to no crime,,,get off your high horse and quit looking down your nose,,thinking you have a right to dictate to another, maybe you can understand this English,,I believe your father jerked off in a flowerpot and raised a blooming idiot,,,novalox,I don’t recall ever asking you a question so don’t address me with your opinion as I see quite well you have no regards for others that differ from yours,in other words,,you can get bent,,just as far as your nose is

    Like

  331. Chemmomo
    July 25, 2014 at 5:09 am

    Michael Dunster @ July 24, 2014 at 5:55 pm “learn how to read then”

    Learn how to write, and how to punctuate.

    Are you, by any chance, using a voice-to-text program which inserts commas when you pause?

    If so, please consider editing your comments for clarity before posting. This is just friendly advice from someone else who finds your comments as they appear almost unintelligible.

    Like

  332. Chemmomo
    July 25, 2014 at 5:12 am

    pharmi: “up to date on all (or most) of the vaccines, which is actually quite rare unless you’re in the medical field.”
    I’m not in the medical field, yet I am well covered in terms of vaccinations: MMR (laboratory confirmed: note the “mom” part of my ‘nym), Polio, TDaP, Flu. I had chickenpox. And, heck, I’m old enough to have a smallpox vaccine scar.

    To those of you complaining about adults who are not “UTD” “utd” or other variations:

    Get your own boosters, or stop complaining.

    Exactly how do you, in your own minds, reconcile complaining about other adults’ lapses in getting vaccine boosters while refusing to protect your own offspring?

    “A foolish inconsistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” (As far as I’m concerned, the only good line ever penned by that particular author, and quoted from memory of high school English class.)

    Like

  333. July 25, 2014 at 5:26 am

    Chemmomo,,read this

    Like

  334. Chemmomo
    July 25, 2014 at 6:18 am

    Michael Dunster “July 25, 2014 at 5:26 am
    Chemmomo,,read this”

    Can YOU read? Are you oblivious to how your comments are presented on this website?

    I’ll grant this: you and I fundamentally disagree on the issue at hand.

    My comment to you at July 25, 2014 at 5:09 am has nothing to do with that.

    Your communication skills as displayed in the comments section of this post at this website are fundamentally BAD.

    If you want to participate effectively in on-line, written, fora (Latin plural) – well, then you need to improve your writing skills.

    The comma key is NOT the space bar!

    If you have other issues with language – English in specific or language in general, or commenting via various devices not well designed for that – well, I can sympathize. But you need to find a way to present your thoughts more coherently.
    Right now, it’s just not happening. And it’s hard to take your argument seriously when it’s this hard to decipher what that argument is.

    Like

  335. JGC56
    July 25, 2014 at 10:17 am

    “you are comparing a probable crime to no crime”

    No, the comparison is situations where declining to answer a simple question which would allow the questioner to make an informed choice to minimize their own and their loved ones’ risk of harm.

    Like

  336. Gray Falcon
    July 25, 2014 at 10:25 am

    Michael, legal and illegal are not the same thing as right and wrong.

    Like

  337. JGC56
    July 25, 2014 at 10:35 am

    “there is evidence suggesting vaccinations do cause harm”

    Michael, while there that evidence which indicates vaccines can cause some tyoes of harm–with those which occur commonly being both minor and transient (low greade fever, soreness at the site of injection, etc.) and those which are serious or persistent (encephalopathy for example) being all but vanishingly rare–there is at tis time no evidence demonstrating a causal association between Hep B vaccination and MS.

    (And no, spin Ms Brown’s account isn’t such evidence–it’s unsupported assertion.)

    Like

  338. Chris
    July 25, 2014 at 11:02 am

    Chemmomo, I figured that Mr. Dunster was only semi-literate, so I have ignored him. Especially when he tried to plead the fifth!

    Like

  339. Chris
    July 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm

    I see an example of a semi-literacy and total logic fail. Do not feed the troll.

    Like

  340. Lawrence
    July 25, 2014 at 2:41 pm

    @Michael – I’ve reported you to the blog owner, just letting you know.

    Like

  341. July 25, 2014 at 3:50 pm

    for?I see it is ok for some to try and degrade a person and is not for others,just because i don’t agree with openly asking a question?sorry you are bent over it,,you don’t have to agree with me,,your choice,but i do have a right to voice mine whether you do or don’t agree,and my question i have asked is really no different than the one exampled in this article

    Like

  342. JGC56
    July 25, 2014 at 6:04 pm

    Michael, I don’t understand why you would expect anyone to be reticient about answering the question “Are you a homosexual?” when asked. Can you explain your–well, for lack of a better word we’ll call it ‘reasoning’–to me?

    Like

  343. novalox
    July 25, 2014 at 6:14 pm

    @michael

    You do know that your bigoted views are not conducive towards an adult and rational conversation.

    Like

  344. July 25, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    ok,I am not being bigoted,have you heard me say,,oh,,you vaccinated your child,why would you want to poison them?I’m not putting down anyone that does,that is their prerogative as well it is for someone that hasn’t,,also,I have nothing against homosexuality,,I do not think it is ok for me to ask someone if they are gay,,because it is not my place to condemn or condone,but,,they have more of a chance of carrying HIV which does not have a cure or vaccine for,for this reason of you thinking it is bigoted of me to ask,,,I don’t think it is appropriate for someone to ask of vaccinations of a child,,then look down ones nose as if they are beneath them,even if that person tells you it is none of your business,it is noone’s place to judge another,unless there is criminal acts being done,If a person is that much of a hypochondriac that they feel they need to ask such a question,,they have no business being in a public atmosphere,just my opinion

    Like

  345. July 25, 2014 at 7:25 pm

    talk about rational conversation?Everyone of you that feel it is appropriate to ask someone if their child has been vaccinated has said or bashed anyone that does not have the same opinion as yours,,,THAT,is being bigoted and irrational

    Like

  346. Chris
    July 25, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    So how does a person who is LGBTQ community pose a greater danger than an asymptomatic child who may be infectious with a vaccine preventable disease? Be sure to include the probability that someone of in that community is HIV positive, and the chance they can transmit the virus by being in the same room.

    Essentially compare the airborne transmission of the HIV virus with measles and pertussis, with verifiable scientific documentation of those probabilities.

    Like

  347. July 25, 2014 at 7:59 pm

    Chris,,,if you feel that strongly about your child getting a disease,why would you even think of going in public?Both questions to me is asinine,the one presented in this article and the one I asked,,but you said it yourself,,someone whom may have a virus,that is the problem,automatically assume one is carrying just because they are not vaccinated,when with all actuality one could say the same to you because of the vaccines,the whole argument is moot,but the fact still remains,YOU are looking down your nose

    Like

  348. July 25, 2014 at 8:01 pm

    and if your child is already vaccinated,,,what really is the problem?do you not trust your own judgement?

    Like

  349. Chris
    July 25, 2014 at 8:05 pm

    Answer the question. Explain why you are think someone in the LGTBQ community is equivalent to an asymptomatic child with an infectious vaccine preventable disease.

    Like

  350. July 25, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    I did answer your question,in 2 previous posts,but you have failed to answer mine,,like I said before ,pull your head out and breathe,maybe you will comprehend then

    Like

  351. July 25, 2014 at 8:58 pm

    Or how about the fact that having vax injuries and sharing them is ignored. Well that or you are just called a liar. I’ll assume they think you will post your medical history here to prove it.
    What also is a little odd, is that these same 3 commenters will comment with in minutes of a post. 24/7.. But they want you to believe they are just here to ‘protect’ children. LOL

    Like

  352. July 25, 2014 at 9:03 pm

    Anyone with a vax injury, themselves or with their children, need not bother posting here. You will see they (the same 3 commenters) will ask for your medical records. Of course, that’s not going to happen, so anything you say is a lie, or perhaps even with hour medical history, they will find a way to claim (because they are educated you know) that you can’t prove it was from a vax..Well or you are a troll.
    Speaking of trolls though..
    No one finds it odd that these commenters are right there to comment with in minutes of anyone’s post?

    Like

  353. July 25, 2014 at 9:19 pm

    yes,,i agree simplycaring,

    Like

  354. Chris
    July 25, 2014 at 9:43 pm

    You have not answered the question with any evidence. Explain why you are think someone in the LGTBQ community is equivalent to an asymptomatic child with an infectious vaccine preventable disease. Try again, with data.

    We would really like to know the probability of being in the presence of those in the LGTBQ community can transmit HIV as easily as an asymptomatic child with an airborne vaccine preventable disease like measles or pertussis.

    You brought up the possibility, now you need to prove it.

    simplycaring: “Anyone with a vax injury, themselves or with their children, need not bother posting here.”

    Actually some have, and when they are honest and understand the relative risks they are listened to. But others tend to ignore that some of us who post here have had children and other loved ones actually injured by the diseases (the vaccine was not available for my child).

    Like

  355. novalox
    July 25, 2014 at 10:30 pm

    @simply

    The fact that you are willing to lie about your children’s vaccination status says a lot about your character. Also, fake accusations against others is frowned upon here. Your utter callousness towards children is ghastly, considering that children can have permanent damage from VPDs. (and I don’t think that’s an LOL moment)

    I do pity your children, however, having a mother who thinks of them as damaged and less than human rather than individuals worthy of love and respect.

    Also, if you are so certain that your child has a vaccination injury, can you show your vaccine court ID docket #? Those IDs keep the claimant anonymous. I do have a sneaking suspicion, however, judging from your proclivity for lying and use of insults instead of showing proof for you assertions that you never did.

    None here have said that vaccine injuries do occur in rare cases. The odds of that happening, however, are extremely small compared to that from the diseases that they prevent.

    @michael

    The fact that you keep resorting to insults and ad hominems, instead of answering questions, as well as fake accusations and showing your bigotry towards LGBTQ individuals, speaks a lot about you.

    Again, why should anyone believe you if you do not show proof of your assertions with actual evidence?

    Like

  356. July 25, 2014 at 11:06 pm

    Novalox,lets see,,,AD HOMINEM- marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made,,,isn’t that exactly what everyone of you are doing,i thought that is exactly how you needed(wanted)to be talked to,,my assertion of my question was/is a metaphor to show how asinine the original question is,it is irrelevant,,,can you comprehend that?

    Like

  357. July 25, 2014 at 11:08 pm

    I see my previous comment has been removed

    Like

  358. novalox
    July 25, 2014 at 11:41 pm

    @michael

    Again, pointing out the flaws in your assertions is not ad hominem. And your continuing grandstanding, deflections, and false accusations instead of answering the questions asked of you implies that you will not or more likely cannot answer the questions in an honest answer.

    Seriously, why can’t you answer Chris’ questions, since you brought up the assertions anyways?

    Like

  359. jgc56
    July 25, 2014 at 11:43 pm

    “have you heard me say,,oh,,you vaccinated your child,why would you want to poison them?”

    I would hope not, since vaccinating a child doesn’t share identity with poisoning them.

    “I have nothing against homosexuality,,I do not think it is ok for me to ask someone if they are gay,,because it is not my place to condemn or condone,”

    I don’t understand how merely asking them if they were gay would be to ether condemn or condone being gay. For that matter, I’m aware of no rational argument suggesting being homosexual merits condemnation nor requires being condoned.

    “They have more of a chance of carrying HIV which does not have a cure or vaccine”

    Citation needed: you are aware that according to the WHO the majority of new HIV infections occur as a consequence of heterosexual intercourse? It isn’t homosexuality that places one at risk of infection–it’s engaging in unsafe sex, regardless of whether it’s with someone of your own or the opposite gender.

    “I don’t think it is appropriate for someone to ask of vaccinations of a child”

    Why not, since unlike being homosexual being un-vaccinated does confer increased risk of being a vector for infection?

    “then look down ones nose as if they are beneath them,even if that person tells you it is none of your business,”

    I haven’t seen anyone saying they would look down their noses at them, just that they would limit their children’s association with them because of the increased risk they would serve as a vector of infection.

    “it is noone’s place to judge another,unless there is criminal acts being done,”

    Nonsense. You’re acting as if any and all behaviors that aren’t prohibited by law must be considered acceptable even when those behaviors place others at risk. That simply isn’t the case.

    “If a person is that much of a hypochondriac that they feel they need to ask such a question,,they have no business being in a public atmosphere,”

    We’re not talking about an imaginary concern here–the increased risk engendered by individuals who do not vaccinate their children is demonstrably real

    “just my opinion”

    Might want to work on it a bit more before you trot it out in public,

    Like

  360. jgc56
    July 25, 2014 at 11:45 pm

    “Everyone of you that feel it is appropriate to ask someone if their child has been vaccinated has said or bashed anyone that does not have the same opinion as yours”

    Where have I done that, michael?

    Like

  361. jgc56
    July 25, 2014 at 11:49 pm

    “Or how about the fact that having vax injuries and sharing them is ignored.”

    I haven’t seen anyone ignoring someone with an injury due to vaccination. Who do you think we’re ignoring?

    Like

  362. jgc56
    July 25, 2014 at 11:55 pm

    “No one finds it odd that these commenters are right there to comment with in minutes of anyone’s post?”

    See, there’s these two little boxes you can check when you post a comment here. If you check the first one you’ll get an e-mail when someone has responded to one of your posts, and if you check the second one you’ll get an e-mail if someone authors a new post in response to the article.

    These e-mail notifications typically arrive within a few minutes of the triggering resposne or new post.

    Mystery solved!

    Like

  363. July 26, 2014 at 12:22 am

    Mystery solved? Who leaves email
    Notifications on 24hrs 7days a week? And notifications for a blog at that.

    Like

  364. July 26, 2014 at 12:25 am

    I see,,,false accusations novalox,,,calling someone a liar,especially someone you don’t know,is that not attacking ones character?I personally have said nothing about vaccination injuries,but others have and they are called liars,
    Jgc56,others have said their children have not been vaccinated and have voiced their opinion of questioning someone about their children being vaccinated and have been scrutinized for it,,you yourself directly asked someone why they boys wern’t,,although you have not directly said how stupid it is to not be vaccinated,,you have implied it by asking why someone is not,,,frankly it isn’t your business whether they have been or not,that has been my point all along,If your children have been vaccinated,what is the point to the question at hand,but I guess you must feel guilty of my accusations to put yourself in the category of my use of “everyone”,all I hear(read is,citation this,prove that,well nobody needs to prove nothing,after all it is just someones opinion and people have a right to disagree,no one is asking you to push your opinion on them,it doesn’t matter why my opinion is what it is,what matters is,if you want me to respect yours,,you must respect mine

    Like

  365. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 12:44 am

    simplycaring: Most people check their e-mail every few minutes. And yes, we do subscribe to comment threads.

    Now here’s something suspicious to consider. Treating a disease is far more expensive and profitable for drug companies that preventing one altogether. You advocate against prevention. How do we know you aren’t trying to maximize someone’s profits?

    Like

  366. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 12:57 am

    Le sigh. Let me rephrase the question another way. Mr. Dunster brought up the LGBTQ community and surmised:

    I do not think it is ok for me to ask someone if they are gay,,because it is not my place to condemn or condone,but,,they have more of a chance of carrying HIV which does not have a cure or vaccine for,for this reason of you thinking it is bigoted of me to ask,,

    .

    This seems to imply that LGBTQ community can transmit HIV as easily as an asymptomatic child with an infection of an airborne vaccine preventable disease like measles, mumps and pertussis. But he cannot come up with that actual verifiable probabilities.

    So before shutting things down tonight, I thought I’d try a different question. In 2005 a young lady visited Romania and when she came home she went to a church picnic. Though she did not know she had measles, but it she was infectious, so she shared it with over thirty other people: Measles Outbreak Associated with a Church Congregation: A Study of Immunization Attitudes of Congregation Members.

    So, Mr. Dunster, can you provide the verifiable documentation that a member of the LGBTQ community transmitted HIV to over thirty people by just attending a casual gathering like a picnic? Surely you must have had some reason to bring up that community (and I see that comment has been deleted, what a pity because it shows your true character).

    Like

  367. July 26, 2014 at 1:00 am

    that’s a good question Gray,,but i really haven’t seen anyone advocating against vaccination

    Like

  368. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 1:49 am

    @michael

    So then prove me wrong, and answer Chris’ questions asked of you? Your consistent refusal to do so implies that you cannot answer the questions in a forthright manner.

    I can assume from your consistent refusal that you are less than honest with answering questions, and your portrayal to pin your faults on me is rather pathetic.

    So again, since you brought the assertions, why won’t you support them with evidence?

    @simply

    Have you ever heard of email subscriptions? Also, your continuing false accusations of sock puppetry smacks of desperation of your part, since you cannot bring forth any evidence to support your assertions.

    Like

  369. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 2:04 am

    @michael

    Thanks for admitting that you cannot answer the questions posed of you. You continually cannot back up your assertions at all and instead respond with ad hominems, vitriol, and grandstanding.

    So again, thanks for admitting that I am superior to you, and that everything you say means squat. You cannot answer the questions asked of you, why should any rational person believe you?

    Of course, I take it as an honor that you have to resort to such childish insults and say anything coherent to me. So please, show the world how inchoate you really are. I do need my laughs after all.

    Like

  370. July 26, 2014 at 2:24 am

    Novalox,,just the fact that you stated,,you are superior to me proves you are a bigot,you have constantly implied that I and others are a liar,without any proof from you that we are,,just your consist babbling of prove prove prove,the proof is in your own words,,you are bigot,,you think you are higher classed,,which you very well may be,,but that irrelevant,just like your snide remarks of saying of underdeveloped you think I am but leave it to a person such as yourself to prove what an ass you really are

    Like

  371. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 2:40 am

    @michael

    Again, thank you for showing your true side, because your continued use of childish insults, as well as your behavior here, shows your true colors. I do take it as an honor to have reduced you to childish insults and ad homienms. You can keep trying, I’ve heard worse from six year olds.

    Also, don’t insult those with mental issues, and don’t put your flaws and character flaws on me. I’m not the one who continually refuses to answer questions, calls people names and derogatory comments, insults the LGBPQ community, and has to resort to grandstanding.

    I’m still waiting for your answers to Chris’ questions. Heck. I’m still waiting for you to answer Dorit’s, Lawrence’s and GF’s questions.

    Like

  372. July 26, 2014 at 3:21 am

    have you looked at yourself,,what part of,,I don’t need or have to answer anything,,you are like a broken record stuck in one spot,,you did the same with bms,,,yet you do exactly what you claim of me,,I would like to ask again,,who is dorit?Lawrence has never ask me anything,and if GF is Gray Falcon,,,no question from him either except a threat,and i did answer him with that,as i said,,If you want to prove me wrong,,go get your evidence to prove i am a liar,,I have already said that I used an improper metaphor to try and make my point,,,now because you are that ignorant i have to stoop to the ignorance with complete rudeness,,,and I have never once insulted the LGBPQ community,,,that is a bold faced lie

    Like

  373. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 3:36 am

    @michael

    Simple, when trolls like bms refer to the same old anti-vax lies and pseudoscience, the regulars have to keep posting the same stuff that had discredited their lies again and again. You keep delaying and hee-hawing, I’m just putting you and the other trolls to task.

    And the proof is in all of your posts above. Do you think noone is going to scroll above to see your postings, with all of your continuing refusals to answer your questions?

    But please, keep on posting. I want to see how many more childish insults you plan to lay on me, since I want to see how far off you can go.

    Like

  374. July 26, 2014 at 3:48 am

    So your a regular troll?you say the proof is in my comments,,proof of what?what exactly are you trying to prove?

    Like

  375. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 7:58 am

    Michael, one more question. If one is a safe driver, would it matter if anyone else drove drunk?

    Like

  376. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 10:06 am

    Mr. Dunster: “what part of your beat didn’t you understand?”

    Actually, your prose is difficult to read. You have simply failed to make a cogent argument.

    It might help if you would step back and take the time to learn how to write. There is no shame in seeking to improve your education, which is why many community colleges have basic adult literacy classes.

    If you wish to be taken seriously on online discussions you need to learn how to communicate. But it is all up to you, you need to put in the effort.

    Like

  377. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 10:56 am

    @michael

    Again, what part of “answering the question” do you not get?

    Like

  378. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    It seems Michael genuinely does not understand that he can’t simply ignore anything that he feels is inconvenient. How can anyone even partially literate come away with “but i really haven’t seen anyone advocating against vaccination”? I think we need to ban him simply because he isn’t capable of intelligent conversation.

    Like

  379. jgc56
    July 26, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    simply caring, once you check either box the e-mail notification IS on 24/7 until you actively unsubscribe from the thread.

    Like

  380. July 26, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Seriously? Who checks and responds to emails at 2am? I’m aware notifications can be sent 24/7. That was not the comment, and would be interesting to know why someone’s constantly here responding ALL hours of the day

    Like

  381. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 1:05 pm

    simplycaring, do you know what “time zones” are?

    Like

  382. July 26, 2014 at 1:11 pm

    Ok, so 2am would be 10,11,12 or 1am? The fact that it doesn’t matter what time of day/night it is.. ALWAYS there to comment is my POINT.
    It seems No has slowed down the responses since I first made the comment.. Also odd
    The attacks on anyone that says they will not vax, have history of vax injury, or will not disclose it, is also questionable.
    Anyone reading the comments, should be considering all of the above.

    Like

  383. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    simplycaring, does the planet consist entirely of the United States?

    Like

  384. July 26, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    I have to admit that i have not read every single comment in this thread,but the fact remains the same,,,each of you that have directly commented towards me have been badgering me with consistant allegations of how I’m a liar,,,illiterate refusing to answer a question that i have clearly answered in numerous comments,insinuated that I have insulted people with mental issues, bashed the gay community,I have done none of these things,yet YOU have done exactly what you accuse me of,no citations,,no proof,I made my opinion that it is none of your business of what i do with my children that asking if they are vaccinated is an asinine question and have assert why i believe so,yet each of you have failed to answer my questions that I have asked about the matter,this is not a debate thread,yet you have badgered every individual that does not have the same opinion as yours,,why?what exactly are you trying to convince me of?that you need a life?you have already convinced me of
    that.do you have anything else to prove?

    Like

  385. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 1:23 pm

    Once confronted with the truth, Mr. Dunster once again responds with insults and abuse. Seriously, in the time he typed that, he could have gotten up to speed and actually read the thread.

    Like

  386. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    @simply

    Again, your insinuations of sockpuppetry as well as your penchant for lying to others have been noted.

    You do know that false accusations are a basis for banning here as well.

    @michael

    Why should anyone take you seriously?

    Like

  387. July 26, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    Gray Falcon,what truths am i confronted with?Novalox,,answer your own question,why should i take you seriously?but you keep taking me serious enough to keep running your face

    Like

  388. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    Michael, I’ve asked you several questions over this thread. You pretend I didn’t, that I just threatened you. I have nothing to say to someone who is not only a liar, but incompetent at lying.

    Like

  389. July 26, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    yet,I haven’t received an answer to my question,,,if your children are already vaccinated,what harm does a non vaccinated child impose on them?if any,,,,keep in mind,,i need proof

    Like

  390. July 26, 2014 at 1:59 pm

    no,,you have statements,,the questions you have asked,I answered

    Like

  391. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    simplycaring: “Seriously? Who checks and responds to emails at 2am?”

    You are on a round planet, and there are people who post who do not live in the USA. I went to bed last night at 11pm.

    Mr. Dunster, please go back to school. You’ve been told multiple times how a non-vaccinated child can pass a disease on without knowing. Just like the young woman in Indiana did at a church picnic, just read the link I gave about that outbreak. Just hover your mouse over the blue letters and push the button on your mouse.

    Like

  392. July 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    you asked if you had a civil right to punch me in my face,,I said no and explained why,,this question I ignored,,, If one is a safe driver, would it matter if anyone else drove drunk?,,because I don’t understand what you are trying to ask and it is off topic,problem?

    Like

  393. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    Mr. Dunster: “the questions you have asked,I answered”

    If you did, then we cannot understand the answers and I did not see any references of reliable documentation. Just go back to school to learn how to write and that when you are asked for evidence that your rambling opinions do not count.

    Like

  394. July 26, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    maybe you need to understand my question Chris,,,a non vaccinated child that might be carrying can pass to another non vaccinated child,,what does have to do with a child already vaccinated,

    Like

  395. July 26, 2014 at 2:11 pm

    Chris,,again,,if you want evidence like you say,,go look for your self,

    Like

  396. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 2:21 pm

    Mr. Dunster: “what does have to do with a child already vaccinated,”

    That is reasonable, but has been also answered many times:

    First off my son had a medical condition and could not get certain vaccines. See what I wrote near the top of the page at July 19, 2014 at 12:08 am.

    Second: babies are too young to get some vaccines, and they can still be vulnerable to others because they have not completed the full series. Just check the recommended pediatric vaccine schedule to see the MMR and varicella vaccines are not given until after their fist birthday.

    Third: vaccines do not always work, and some wear off. The MMR is the best, but even after two doses one out of hundred cannot get immunity to measles, and about one in ten for mumps and pertussis. The pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria vaccines wear off, which is why you have always needed ten year boosters for tetanus, and now need them for pertussis. Note, even you get pertussis, tetanus or diphtheria, you don’t get full immunity, and often not for long even for pertussis:
    Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.

    Fourth: people get diseases that require a treatment that destroys their immune systems. Examples include cancer and organ transplants.

    Like

  397. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 2:26 pm

    Mr. Dunster: “,if you want evidence like you say,,go look for your self,”

    It doesn’t work that way. If you claim HIV can be transmitted as easily in the air as measles, then you must provide that evidence (hint: it doesn’t, it is transmitted only through bodily fluids).

    In other words if you make a claim, you must provide the evidence to that claim. Until then we will assume that you know nothing about how diseases are transmitted and their relative dangers.

    But you can change that. You can go find an adult education class to help you learn how to communicate and perhaps some basic science, which may teach about what is valid evidence. You just have to have the will power to open up your mind to new information, and then do the work to take those classes.

    Like

  398. July 26, 2014 at 2:45 pm

    so my standing in my opinion is still the same,you say your son had medical condition and could not get vaxed,,that is not another person problem,if you feel that strongly about catching a disease,why subject him to the possibility of it,2)why would someone with a child under the age of 1 that is not vaxed go to a public place to begin with and subject them to possible diseases 3)that is the point of most peoples view,,,the vaccines don’t always work,that a vaccinated child still could pass a disease to another vaccinated child no matter how minute the possibility,so to dis someone for not have vaccines is asinine and bears to question,,if a person does not want to answer such a question because they feel it is none of their business,one cannot automatically assume that the children aren’t vaccinated and pass judgement,that’s all i have been saying on the subject,As I have said before,,I do not disagree with vaccinations,as you have stated they can be harmful for some,so with the problem you say you had with your child,,,you yourself should not be overlooking the other factual problems that vaccines may impose,no matter how minute,,

    Like

  399. July 26, 2014 at 2:47 pm

    Chris,,again,,i never said that it does,,you assumed that is what i was implying,,I have also stated my error in trying to use that metaphor to get point across,problem still?

    Like

  400. July 26, 2014 at 2:50 pm

    Chris,,my point was,,that the question of are you a homosexual is just as asinine as asking ,are your kids vaccinated,,

    Like

  401. July 26, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    Again,,,I DON’T NEED to do anything,telling me i need to to an Adult education class,who the hell do you think you are to tell me what you think I need to do

    Like

  402. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 3:08 pm

    Mr. Dunster: “Chris,,my point was,,that the question of are you a homosexual is just as asinine as asking ,are your kids vaccinated,”

    No it is not. You not being able to understand that can be remedied, but you have to be willing to do the work to get an adequate education. This seems to be something you are unwilling to do.

    Since you are happy at having a limited closed mind, this is my last response to you. I suggest that you go somewhere else for your entertainment.

    Like

  403. July 26, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    what are you talking about?my opinion is,,,both questions are asinine because it is no ones business of either,it doesn’t matter if you agree with that or not,and thank you for finally shutting up

    Like

  404. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    @Michael – as a parent, it is my responsibility for doing right by my child. Asking another parent if their children are vaccinated is a perfectly valid question – especially if a child has a medical condition that might make them vulnerable to disease.

    If you don’t like the question – don’t answer it (or do as you’ve done here & probably turn around and insult that particular parent), I imagine your kids wouldn’t have too many friends at that point.

    Like

  405. July 26, 2014 at 3:46 pm

    These petty arguments are so tiresome to read! For those of you defending vaccines and denying the catastrophic damage they have done to children in the last 20 years, you are so uninformed that it’s a complete joke. This generation of children are the sickest in history, our country has more chronically ill children than any other developed nation in the world. It IS due to the toxic assault that is begun on newborn babies 12 hours after being born. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or a doctor to use your own common sense to deduce that the vaccine schedule which has tripled in the last 20 years is to blame. There is nothing else that has changed. There are hundreds of doctors and even neurosurgeons and immunologists that say that vaccines are not safe or effective and cause the brain to be miswired. The result is millions of children with chronic auto immune disease, allergies, autism and in some cases death. There are countless audio presentations and you tube videos with many doctors testifying against the safety of vaccines. The long term effects have never been studied and safety has never been proven-unless you want to count the phony studies sponsored by the makers of the vaccines. Wake up people, children are dying and becoming brain damaged every single day while you sit back and talk about asking people at the park if their kids are vaccinated or not! What a joke, anyone can just lie about it anyway, this whole conversation is a waste.

    Like

  406. July 26, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    Lawrence,i didn’t say that it wasn’t a valid question,,i said it is asinine because it really isn’t any of your business,if the probability of a child with a medical condition that has not been vaccinated is the case,why would you be bringing them into a possible diseased environment in the first place and the question would be irrelevant from the start,, if you had a problem with someone telling you it is not your business or doesn’t answer that is your problem and not the one being asked,also i put insult where it is due,if you were to be insulting as many have been doing here,i will return the favor,fair is fair right,,so go tell them about themselves,, if the scenario is as you say,,maybe the question should be,,”hey,,my child is not vaccinated,do to a medical condition do you mind if our kids play together?”fairly simple correct?

    Like

  407. July 26, 2014 at 4:01 pm

    lee nelson,,watch out,,they are going to want citations proof of what you say,they refuse to go research for themselve’s to try and prove you wrong,,why,,because that will contradict what their agenda is

    Like

  408. Chris
    July 26, 2014 at 4:05 pm

    lee nelson: “These petty arguments are so tiresome to read! For those of you defending vaccines and denying the catastrophic damage they have done to children in the last 20 years, you are so uninformed that it’s a complete joke”

    Citation needed. How can we deny something if we have no evidence that it has actually happened.

    “Wake up people, children are dying and becoming brain damaged every single day while you sit back and talk about asking people at the park if their kids are vaccinated or not!”

    Case reports on those children who have died or became brain damaged by vaccines. There should be some legal notice or something on PubMed that almost four hundred American children per year are so grossly harmed by vaccines.

    You have made a testable claim, now come up with the evidence to support your claim. Youtube videos do not count.

    Like

  409. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 4:11 pm

    @Michael & Chris – I have yet to see even a single shred of proof to say that “this generation” or whatever is any worse previous generations – if you can’t provide the citations for your claims, then be prepared to be taken to task for it……when someone declares the moon is made of green cheese, they better bring evidence & don’t expect us to take your word for it.

    Like

  410. July 26, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    told you,,,,GO find it yourself Chris,,no one has to prove anything to you,you just now did not prove the statement false,you prove that it is

    Like

  411. July 26, 2014 at 4:17 pm

    Lawrence,,Chris did not say what you are asking proof of,,,Lee did,,and I say to you,,,if you want to prove it wrong,,go do the research yourself

    Like

  412. July 26, 2014 at 4:20 pm

    i have been asked by Chris to answer dorit’s question,,yet have found no one in this thread named that,,so i don;t know what the question is that i have failed to answer

    Like

  413. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 4:34 pm

    @Michael – that isn’t how this works…..you have to prove that you are right – telling people to go research it themselves is admitting that you don’t know.

    Like

  414. July 26, 2014 at 4:45 pm

    Who needs proof of anything? Look around you are you asleep? 1 in 50 kids autistic, almost every kid has one or more health problems that we never had growing up. Use your common sense, are you awake? Watch you tube all of the doctors talking about how dangerous vaccines are, you must be in a haze of ignorance if you haven’t seen any of them. There are hundreds, just don’t watch any sponsored by vaccine manufacturers, because that would mean you weren’t too smart.

    Like

  415. July 26, 2014 at 4:46 pm

    according to who Lawrence? I don’t have to prove anything to anyone,,and there you go again assuming that i don’t know,,that is what gets a lot of people in trouble,,,you assumed Chris made the remark,,yet she was quoting from another,that is what happens when you assume something,,most times it is the wrong assumption,,no w i did the same someone here said that there was not any information about vaccines causing MS,guess what,there actually have been studies linking to this,,as well as autism,that is my point,,that person said they were non existing,wrong

    Like

  416. July 26, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    Well Chris ,,still waiting to know who Dorit is and the question i didn’t answer,hows it feel being badgered?

    Like

  417. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 4:52 pm

    @Lee – hmmmm, well, there were hundreds of thousands of individuals in this country that we shuttered away in a whole series of large sanitariums (both public and private), not to mention all of those people who were considered “odd” or kept out of sight by their families over the years.

    Today, certainly we get to “see” these people & actually acknowledge they exist – as opposed to pretending they didn’t.

    I’ll stack your “youtube” evidence up against Project Tycho, which actually tabulated public health information over the past 120 years to show how many people have been saved from VPDs….https://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

    If you’re going to make the claim Lee – you’d better provide actual evidence to back it up….lots of people have claimed to see Bigfoot as well.

    Like

  418. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm

    @Lee – better yet, this also speaks for itself:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v507/n7490_supp/full/507S2a.html

    Like

  419. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    When the entirety of the World Medical Community is against you, please don’t bring out “YouTube” videos – you’re bringing vaporware to a gunfight….which means you lose.

    Like

  420. July 26, 2014 at 5:03 pm

    here you go Lawrence,,,,,satisfied,some proof that vaccines could be harmful and should not be given to everyone

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm

    Like

  421. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:19 pm

    @michael – and you will be sure to point at the statement that anyone (here or otherwise) that has said “everyone” should be vaccinated.

    In fact, vaccinations are necessary for the rest of us, for those who cannot, for medically validated reasons, receive vaccines themselves.

    Like

  422. July 26, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    I don’t have to point out anything,, your statement saying the entire medical community is against you is a false statement,,clearly,i never said that vaccinations weren’t necessary either,just stating a fact it is hazardess to some that most like to overlook

    Like

  423. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:36 pm

    @Michael – perhaps let me rephrase…the entire legitimate medical community (exempting those that have been de-licensed, aren’t really medical doctors, etc.) is against you (and the likes of Lee), including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the WHO, the CDC, Medical Associations in Europe, Asia & Africa, on and on and on – representing the professional opinion of millions of medical professionals worldwide.

    And, of course, hazardous is not what “contra-indicated” means…..again, you made the claim that we have stated that “all people should be vaccinated” when we have said no such thing – nor can you point to where, either here or elsewhere, anyone has said that.

    In fact, your link is routinely posted to refute anti-vax claims…and it is well recognized that certain people should not be vaccinated. Which behooves the rest of us to get vaccinated to protect those who cannot be.

    Like

  424. July 26, 2014 at 5:40 pm
  425. Lawrence
  426. July 26, 2014 at 5:42 pm
  427. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:45 pm

    @Michael – wow, vactruth, really?

    Let’s see, a YouTube Video, links to a “study” that was no more than a survey by a German Homeopath, and a link to CDC autism numbers……color me unimpressed.

    Decontructed & demolished here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/31/an-anti-vaccine-administered-survey-back/

    Like

  428. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    Michael, there’s nothing about vaccines in there connecting them to chronic diseases. One could just as easily claim black magic is at fault.

    Like

  429. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    @Michael – again, nothing to do with vaccines, given that we are living longer (longest lifespans in human history), of course we are going to see more chronic diseases…and the CDC says (in your link):

    Chronic Diseases: Often Preventable, Frequently
    Manageable
    Many chronic diseases could be prevented, delayed, or
    alleviated, through simple lifestyle changes.
    t The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    (CDC)16 estimates that eliminating three risk factors
    – poor diet, inactivity, and smoking – would prevent:
    t 80% of heart disease and stroke;
    t 80% of type 2 diabetes; and,
    t 40% of cancer.

    Sounds like a good plan to me.

    Like

  430. July 26, 2014 at 5:48 pm

    well allow me to rephrase as well,,the majority of people believe that all should be vaccinated,otherwise the original question imposed in this article is irrelevant,so here again,,you wanted proof ,,I showed proof,,and you still want to argue

    Like

  431. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:48 pm

    @Gray – actually his link points to the root cause of these conditions – mostly poor dietary choices and an increase in child obesity.

    Nothing to do with vaccines.

    Like

  432. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    @Michael – you’ve shown nothing of the sort. Go get some better evidence (actually, any real evidence at all). And you’ve just made another bold statement “the majority of people believe all should be vaccinated.”

    Please provide a citation to back it up.

    Like

  433. July 26, 2014 at 5:56 pm

    and the point to the article that i posted of chronic diseases on the rise in children,,you said you have not seen one single shred of proof,do your own research buddy

    Like

  434. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 5:59 pm

    Michael, it explicitly did not list vaccines as a cause, blaming other factors instead. To claim it supports your statements is an outright lie. And yes, I am accusing you of lying. You deliberately made a statement contrary to the facts, that is, by definition, lying.

    Like

  435. July 26, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    the evidence is in this thread,,,almost every commenting believes the question to fair,in other words,,,the person that feels the need to ask such a question is already suggesting that the children in question should be vaccinated,and if one was not to answer or tells you it is none of your business,you automatically assume they are not,that is what i mean by majority,,in the contents of this thread

    Like

  436. July 26, 2014 at 6:04 pm

    if you care to read again Gray Falcon,,the lists consist of “Any child who had a life-threatening allergic reaction after a dose of ???? should not get another dose.,call me a liar again,,I am not making accusations as you say,so get off your high horse

    Like

  437. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    Michael, I was talking about the one from fightchronicdiseases.org. That one did not mention vaccines at all, and listed entirely different causes. I’m not on a high horse, you’re buried in the dung heap.

    Like

  438. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 6:12 pm

    Michael doesn’t seem to want to face the reality that his opinion is based on a pile of unsubstantiated hearsay information….regardless, it is entirely appropriate to inquire as to the vaccination status of one’s child’s playmates….if the parent acts anything like Michael, it would probably behoove me to avoid him (and his children) anyway.

    Like

  439. July 26, 2014 at 6:20 pm

    Gray,,I’m not the burying myself in dung,, you are,with every snide remark you speak,,,but it is like i knew it would be,,,,blat that you want proof,,prove this prove that,,,I have done just that for the accusations made towards Lee,,it seems ,that no matter what is presented to you people to get you shut the hell up about the superiority complex you seem to have will never cease,,you personally have called out to almost everyone against your opinion to be a liar without YOU actually doing your own research to prove that accusation worthy of being uttered,,you have no respect for what i say so what makes you think what you have to say is worth a damn

    Like

  440. July 26, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    Lawrence,,what makes you think that your information is any more credible than mine,with your attitude,,i would rather you stepped your ignorance somewhere else,as I i have said if the scenario was as you presented to me earlier,it would be appropriate for you to give that information freely so that I,myself could make an educated decision whether your child was worthy of being around mine

    Like

  441. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    No point in talking with Michael anymore, we’ve established he’s simply a liar and a bully. It’s sad, really, he’s like a mouse hunting a tiger.

    Like

  442. July 26, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    what a troll you are gray

    Like

  443. Lawrence
    July 26, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    @Gray – agreed….his motives have revealed themselves, along with his lack of facts or evidence….at the end of the day, his type will never admit that they hold unsupported beliefs and help endanger others by their ignorance.

    Like

  444. July 26, 2014 at 8:07 pm

    can i ask,,just exactly what are you trying to accomplish Lawrence,Gray?you asked for proof that you say didn’t exist,,,put forth by your demanded proof,,,and now you completely ignore it,which I have stated you would do,I have no motives other than calling you people out for what you are,,you tell me that you reported me,,for what i have no idea,,,but yet you condone someone else breaking a policy here,,that to me is a hypocritical bigot in my book,you call someone a liar without backing up your claim,you trying to demoralize a person’s character,you have insinuated ignorance although you refuse to accept knew knowledge yourself,so i say,,what exactly is your malfunction?

    comment policies:
    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.

    I have only done this back to the same that has been done to me and others;

    Like

  445. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 8:18 pm

    @michael

    Yawn, more lies from you.

    At least thanks for admitting that the regulars here are more intelligent and have more integrity than you can ever hope to have.

    Like

  446. July 26, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    see what i mean?another accusation without proof.I don’t lie,,against my religion

    Like

  447. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 8:39 pm

    For those who lost count, Michael’s very first post here was either an error or a lie about the US Constitution, specifically, the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights explicitly limits the US government’s (and by extension, state and local government) power, and says nothing about what private citizens are and are not allowed to do. From there, when he couldn’t get us to believe everything he heard, he turned to insults, and when that didn’t work, vulgarity. Most forums would have banned him by now.

    Like

  448. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 8:46 pm

    Also, “against my religion” isn’t very convincing. King David was a devout man, and he slept with his general’s wife and plotted to kill him when she got pregnant.

    Like

  449. July 26, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    that is what you believe about the Constitution,I can’t change that,,but their have been numerous cases throughout the yrs of individuals suing individuals in civil courts for the 1st 4th Amendments,,try doing some research,and unless a person is indicted by a grand jury the 5th applies to all individuals anywhere for any reason you may want to study up some more,,and I have said no vulgar word anywhere in this thread,that is another lie ,and my insults have been to yours and others that have insulted everyone that is not a “regular”

    Like

  450. July 26, 2014 at 9:01 pm

    So Gray,,what is your point with that,what does King David have to do with anything?

    Like

  451. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 10:07 pm

    @michael

    Whatever religion that allows you to attack others without provocation, lie freely, and insult others without provocation, that is a religion that I do not wish to follow.

    Like

  452. July 26, 2014 at 10:42 pm

    I didn’t,, you provoked it,,like you are doing now Novalox,when you called me a liar,you are badgering right now like the troll you are,nothing you have said to me all day has been constructive,,a constant breakdown,,i can’t help the fact that you are so close minded you can’t see it,,so,,,you want to tell me where i used vulgar language,want to tell me where i said anything different than what you have done,prove to me your accusations that you must do to stay within the guidelines of the comment policies,because your very last statement to me is provocation,duh

    Like

  453. Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2014 at 11:00 pm

    Also note that Michael talks about court cases supporting his stance without once actually citing one. As usual, he’s arrogant enough to simply think anything he says is He has no excuse, they are a matter of public record.

    Oh, and if anyone wonders where he was being vulgar, it was when he started accusing us of being homosexuals.

    Like

  454. novalox
    July 26, 2014 at 11:01 pm

    @michael

    Yawn, again, attacking others with your simplistic, closed-minded attacks. I would find you so amusing, if your beleifs didn’t hurt children and others who cannot be vaccinated.

    But then again, considering that the evidence presented to you against your beliefs is so great, yet you persist in lying and attack others, why should I be surprised at one who would rather see children suffer from VPDs.,

    Also, don’t assign others your mental issues as well, since you cannot even begin to tell the truth.

    At least you are taking out your frustrations here, instead of at your family or your friends. Now that at least we can be thankful for, since you cannot harm anyone that way.

    Like

  455. novalox
    July 27, 2014 at 1:52 am

    @michael

    Again with your lies?

    Once again, your lies are above for everyone to see. And also, don’t assign your mental issues on me, since you seem to be the one who continually calls other people names and refuses to listen to evidence presented to him as well as imagining a rational audience actually agreeing with you.

    And sure, I’d be ashamed if I had to resort to insults and calling other people names like a little child in order to get his way, since you seem to be keen on.

    And trust me, your audience is laughing at you, since you keep to your lies and deceit.

    But please, keep on posting. Show the world the utter poverty of your assertions and your potty mouth.

    Like

  456. Chris
    July 27, 2014 at 1:53 am

    At this point, I should point out that not everyone in the LGBTQ community can be considered “homosexual.” Though I can definitely say that Mr. Dunster is one, like myself, who would have issues with homophones. Just saying.

    Like

  457. July 27, 2014 at 2:30 am

    hahahahaha,,if you say so Noalox,,although what I’m seeing is different seeing there is a time and date beside each post,the very first derogatory statement toward me insinuating my honesty(nicely calling me a liar) come from you,,
    novalox
    July 24, 2014 at 5:02 pm
    @michael
    You still haven’t pointed out any flaws in Dorit’s posts regarding the utter inaccuracies in your argument, and your misinterpretation of Gray Falcon’s question and position makes me wonder about your honesty.,

    ,so as you see,,you still have not addressed to me who Dorit is,there is no comments that i see from such a person”,there is where it lies,,with your first attempt,and you have done nothing but repeat yourself since,so who’s the liar,,I haven’t denied calling you out,,,we have a difference of opinion I can believe you are so upset about that,,get over it,and yes it may sound childish,hahahahaha,,but you started it first

    Like

  458. novalox
    July 27, 2014 at 2:48 am

    @michael

    Again, why should anyone believe a liar like you. You have had multiple chances to show evidence for your comments and have refused, as well as calling people names, so calling you a liar is not attacking you, since you keep failing to address the comments.

    Your assertions have not been backed up by any sort of actual evidence, and have been either to crank pseudosceintific sites or to sites where you haven’t even looked at them.

    Also, you are the one calling people names, since you keep referring to the regulars as “asses” and liars when they have been telling the truth, so we all must assume that anything you say must be considered incorrect or suspect.

    So, thanks for admitting that you were the first one to call names and to admitting to being just a simple troll, as well as admitting that I have been telling the truth the entire time. You’ve been caught lying again and again, why should any rational person believe you?

    Like

  459. July 27, 2014 at 2:58 am

    I haven’t said anything to have to so proof of anything,hahahaha,,that is the funny part,,i just show you proof of the very first asinine statement of you to me,and again there is no such person in comment with the name of Dorit,that your lie,i just showed you the proof you keep asking for,what is the problem?and yes a have admitted that I have called you asses for when one assumes,,that is what they are,that is not a lie,,that is truth and I am admitting to it never denied it,,,another truth,,so what is the problem?

    Like

  460. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 2:59 am

    I’m Dorit. Nice to meet you. Please note my comments in response to you.

    Like

  461. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:01 am

    Sorry for taking so long to say this, people. I’m in Israel, things are a little hectic, and time zones and stuff. Good morning.

    Like

  462. July 27, 2014 at 3:08 am

    Ah,,so i was correct when asked if you were one and the same,,and never got an answer,,so just exactly what am i suppose to be proving to you ?

    Like

  463. July 27, 2014 at 3:11 am

    If it is about the Constitution,,that i can never do,,because how you interpret it and how i do has been an on going debate for a number of yrs,hence,,that is how our illegal sitting president got into office

    Like

  464. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:13 am

    I’d suggest you review our discussion from above and where I pointed out your claims were inaccurate.

    Like

  465. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:15 am

    Constitutional interpretation is not a matter of personal belief. We have a substantial body of jurisprudence on that from the Supreme Court. To recap shortly, you claimed you have a civil right not to disclose your child’s vaccination status and that individuals cannot refuse to play with your children because those children are unvaccinated. you suggested that right comes from the constitution or from the Civil Rights Act. Kindly show where in those sources such a right is found, and for the Constitution, please supply at least one case that prohibits an individual from discriminating – in a social context – on whatever grounds they please.

    Like

  466. July 27, 2014 at 3:16 am

    according to you,but i disagree

    Like

  467. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:17 am

    What exactly do you disagree with?

    Like

  468. July 27, 2014 at 3:22 am

    I do have a civil right not to disclose my child’s vaccinations to you,,I never once said that individuals cannot refuse to have their children play mine

    Like

  469. July 27, 2014 at 3:24 am

    if I have said that,,you show me where because that was definitely not my intention

    Like

  470. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:25 am

    You do not have a civil right against another individual. You do not, however, have a legal obligation to disclose your vaccination status to anyone, so in that sense, you do have a right not to say anything to anyone.

    But if you choose not to answer the question about vaccination status, I can draw my own conclusion and take my children away from yours. I do hope herd immunity continues to protect unvaccinated children from their parents’ error, but I don’t have to expose my child to the risk that it won’t.

    Like

  471. July 27, 2014 at 3:44 am

    ok,so let me ask this,,how is it that a homosexual can sue an individual for discriminating against them and win in civil court

    Like

  472. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:45 am

    Citation needed.

    Like

  473. July 27, 2014 at 3:47 am

    you cannot say that it is an error on a parents part for not vaccinating,,,that is just a personal opinion

    Like

  474. July 27, 2014 at 3:49 am

    why,,do you not watch the news a case in Colorado recently

    Like

  475. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:51 am

    A. Since the evidence is pretty complete that the risks of not vaccinating, for all children except the rare few with medical contraindications, are much higher than the risks of vaccinating, I can certainly say that a parent choosing the larger risk for her child is in error. I am assuming that parents love their children and want to best protect them. Choosing the bigger risk does not do that.

    B. And this is not relevant to my main point: I don’t have to let my children play with unvaccinated children. Or with children whose parents do not want to answer the question about vaccination status.

    Like

  476. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:51 am

    There are a lot of cases in Colorado. Provide the citation, or at least the names of both parties, please.

    Like

  477. July 27, 2014 at 3:54 am

    sorry,,my bad,,it was not an individual,it was a Christian bakery

    Like

  478. July 27, 2014 at 3:58 am

    ,i disagree with your reasoning,however i have state before that it is still your choice,but I have to ask why you would choose that route,,if your children are already vaccinated,what would be the harm of you allowing your children with non vaccinated children?

    Like

  479. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 3:59 am

    I suppose you are referring to this: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/colorado-baker-cakes-gay-weddings-panel-rules-article-1.1811676.

    Colorado has specific laws prohibiting business from discriminating based on sexual orientation. Similarly, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits some businesses from discriminating based on religion, race, etc’. That’s different –
    A. It’s directed at businesses that offer services to the general population. Not at individuals. There is no legal barrier that I know of for individuals discriminating, for social purposes, for whatever reason they please. I can decide my son doesn’t play with children who wear blue shirts, or children who have a scrape on their left knee, because. I’m well within my rights to do so.
    B. It’s limited to protected categories, often based on immutable characteristics. Being unvaccinated is not a protected category.

    Like

  480. July 27, 2014 at 4:01 am

    this is completely off topic,,you say you are in Israel,,,is it as bad over there as they say in the news?

    Like

  481. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 4:01 am

    “why you would choose that route,,if your children are already vaccinated,what would be the harm of you allowing your children with non vaccinated children?”

    It’s been explained to you before, but let me reiterate: unvaccinated children are at much higher risk of getting a vaccine preventable disease. Those diseases can infect others. If my child is in the one percent that suffers measles vaccine failure, or the 5% that suffer failure of the Hepatitis B vaccine, I do not want my child to get those diseases because someone else chose to leave their children completely unprotected and make them a vector for these diseases.

    http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2014/06/06/guest-post-a-math-lesson-in-vaccines-and-infectious-disease/

    My reasoning would be even stronger if I have a newborn or if my child is, for some reason, immunocompromised. Read this series from the first post: it explains in detail why unvaccinated children are a risk.

    Like

  482. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 4:02 am

    “this is completely off topic,,you say you are in Israel,,,is it as bad over there as they say in the news?” It is off topic, and I would rather not move the discussion in that direction, I am sorry.

    Like

  483. July 27, 2014 at 4:10 am

    now,i have to say,,I have never dissed someone here for a decision that is clearly within there rights,,what I have said is,,that it is asinine for someone to assume a persons child is not vaccinated lust because of persons refusal to say or saying it is none of your business,,,my opinion

    Like

  484. July 27, 2014 at 4:12 am

    why,would you like to E-mail me your answer?

    Like

  485. July 27, 2014 at 4:13 am

    just curious as to how well the news is covering it accurately

    Like

  486. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 4:15 am

    Sigh. Short answer, because I do not want to deflect this stage: depends where you are. Things are bad in the south part of Israel – constant alarms, harm. Things are no doubt horrible in the Gaza strip. Here, we have 1-4 alarms a day. They’re usually short in duration. It’s unpleasant, and stressful, but the risk is nowhere near as high as in the south.

    Children are learning to ask questions they shouldn’t have to. People are dying.

    War is ugly.

    Like

  487. July 27, 2014 at 4:24 am

    yes,,War is ugly,,I am in the New England area of the states,i have been trying to follow as much as i can,,I am sorry that Israel has been having to deal with this for so long,70 yrs now ,give or take I think,,I don’t believe in or support anything that has been done to the people there,,I wish it would all stop,Peace be with you

    Like

  488. July 27, 2014 at 7:47 am

    Micheal, don’t waste any more of your time debating here. You are correct that vaccines are dangerous and have NEVER been proven to be safe long term. You may or may not understand that there are people patrolling these websites that are paid by the gov./vaccine manufacturers to refute any truthful information about the dangers of vaccines. They want to keep ignorant people in the dark about the catastrophic damage that has been done to innocent babies’ immune systems across the globe but mostly in the U.S. There are billions of dollars at stake if people knew the truth. It’s as simple as that, they will argue to the death because they are paid to lie. If you want to truly educate yourself and your family about this issue there are mountains of evidence everywhere, actual accounts of people whose children have been damaged by vaccines, billions of dollars awarded in vaccine court to parents of damaged children, Neurosurgeons and immunologists nd hundreds of other practicing doctors and chiropractors presenting their evidence against the safety of vaccines. That is just the tip of the iceberg, there is much to learn. The more you learn, the more you will be aghast at the ignorance of the general population who blindly inject toxic poisons into their children, believing it is what is best for them. Sadly, exactly the opposite is true, children who are not vaccinated are by far healthier, their immune systems unharmed and able to fight disease the way they are supposed to. Because of the vast information available on the internet, the evidence against vaccine safety is now more public than ever before, which is why there are paid trolls to refute it. The same people comment on hundreds of websites, always defending vaccines, it’s obvious they are paid, nobody would ever have that much personal time to devote to this unless they were paid. Good luck in your search for the truth!

    Like

  489. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 7:56 am

    Some of the inaccuracies in Lee Nelson’s post:
    A. Vaccines have been proven safe in countless studies. Nothing is 100% safe, but the most recent review of many studies concluded: “CONCLUSIONS: We found evidence that some vaccines are associated with serious AEs; however, these events are extremely rare and must be weighed against the protective benefits that vaccines provide.” Margaret A. Maglione, et al., Safety of Vaccines Used for Routine Immunization of US Children: A Systematic Review, doi: 10.1542/peds.2014-1079 PEDIATRICS (2014).
    Similarly, a 2013 Institute of Medicine report concluded: “Upon reviewing stakeholder concerns and scientific literature regarding the entire childhood immunization schedule, the IOM committee finds no evidence that the schedule is unsafe.” http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2013/Childhood-Immunization-Schedule/ChildhoodImmunizationScheduleandSafety_RB.pdf

    B. Implying that the other speakers here are paid by government and vaccine manufacturers is both, to the best of my knowledge, untrue and shows the weakness of anti-vaccine arguments: lacking credible evidence, all they can do is try to cast doubt on those that speak up for vaccines and for protecting children against disease.

    C. The NVICP, as already discussed, compensated 3500 cases in 25 years out of many, many millions of vaccine doses given – a tiny number.

    D. The vast majority of scientists and doctors support vaccines – because the evidence is so one sided: the small risks of modern vaccines are far, far outweighed by their benefits.

    E. Vaccines do not contain “toxins”: http://www.immunize.org/concerns/vaccine_components.pdf

    F. The only evidence of differences I’ve seen between vaccinated and unvaccinated children is that the unvaccinated have higher rates of vaccine preventable diseases: http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf

    And that the vaccinated have less SIDS:
    Vennemann MM, Höffgen M, Bajanowski T, Hense HW, Mitchell EA. Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis. Vaccine. Volume 25, Issue 26, 21 June 2007, Pages 4875-4879.

    Vennemann MM, Butterfass-Bahloul T, Jorch G, Brinkmann B, Findeisen M, Sauerland C, Bajanowski T, Mitchell EA. Sudden infant death syndrome: No increased risk after immunisation. Vaccine. Volume 25, Issue 2, 4 January 2007, Pages 336–340.

    Kuhnert R, Schlaud M, Poethko-Müller C, Vennemann M, Fleming P, Blair PS, Mitchell E, Thompson J, Hecker H. Reanalyses of case-control studies examining the temporal association between sudden infant death syndrome and vaccination. Vaccine. 2012 Mar 16;30(13):2349-56.

    Like

  490. Lawrence
    July 27, 2014 at 10:17 am

    @Dorit – also, anti-vax individuals continue to make false claims like: vaccines contain peanut oil (hence are the cause of peanut allergies)….which is demonstrably a lie, given the regulations for the listing of all ingredients….http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=610&showFR=1&subpartNode=21%3A7.0.1.1.5.7

    Like

  491. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 10:27 am

    Yes, the peanut oil claim just won’t die, regardless of the evidence against it – as you point out, adjuvants specifically must be included in the label, as do other ingredients, and peanut oil, although examined in the 1960s, was never approved as an adjuvant.

    Like

  492. July 27, 2014 at 2:24 pm

    I hope the war is over soon & that you remain safe.

    Like

  493. reissd
    July 27, 2014 at 2:27 pm

    Thank you.

    Like

  494. July 28, 2014 at 2:12 am

    Yes, the vaccine court compensated 3,500 families for damage to their children directly related to vaccines in a 25 year period. What you conveniently forgot to mention was that only a tiny fraction of the children who are damaged are compensated, most don’t ever make it to the court or realized too late that vaccines were to blame and were not able to qualify to have their case heard or could not afford lawyers or the court process. It may seem like a small number to you, but if it were your child who had to live a life of hellish health problems, maybe you would think differently. Your response is utterly ignorant and heartless, not to mention a complete lie.

    Like

  495. reissd
    July 28, 2014 at 2:18 am

    Actually, the percentage of win in NVICP is higher than in the civil courts for product liability claims that are not asbestos. For some vaccines, it is over 50%. That’s because the program is much more plaintiff-friendly than the regular courts.
    I’m sure there are people who choose not to sue, but then, there are also those who sue in spite of not having a claim. And if a person concludes “years after the fact” that it is the vaccine, I’d say that’s a good reason to think it wasn’t. This kind of years after the fact rethinking is not good evidence, especially if it was helped along by anti-vaccine sites and their misinformation.

    I’ve no doubt that for the rare, rare families who suffer serious harms from vaccines it’s an unmitigated tragedy. That’s why I’m glad we have a plaintiff-friendly, no fault program: while nothing can fix such harms, those people should be generously compensated. And it no doubt is horrible. Just like for the person who was injured by the seatbelt, the fact that they usually save lives is cold comfort.

    But for those deciding whether to vaccinate, the small number of cases is very important: when deciding if to vaccinate, they need to choose the smaller risk. The extreme rarity of vaccine injury, the tiny number of cases, help support the other evidence showing how safe vaccines are, and how much smaller their risks than that of the diseases.

    Like

  496. Chris
    July 28, 2014 at 2:25 am

    “What you conveniently forgot to mention was that only a tiny fraction of the children who are damaged are compensated,…”

    Citation needed. Especially since the Autism Omnibus proceedings asked for the three best examples. All were denied due to the fact they could not produce that feather weight of evidence to push it over to more than 50%.

    “could not afford lawyers or the court process.”

    NVICP pays for the lawyers and the court process. So that is not a valid excuse.

    “It may seem like a small number to you, but if it were your child who had to live a life of hellish health problems, …”

    Welcome to my life, due to a child getting a real disease a few years before the vaccine was available. Guess why I know how much an ambulance costs for less than two miles. So just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine causes more harm than the disease. Give us a good reason why we should go back to the reality of a half century ago of thousands of kids being permanently disabled and hundreds being buried for your pet theory.

    Like

  497. JGC56
    July 28, 2014 at 11:17 am

    “Who checks and responds to emails at 2am?”

    Someone living in an different time zone, where it isn’t 2am perhaps?

    Like

  498. Uwakwe
    November 28, 2016 at 11:16 am

    I don’t understand why, if your child is vaccinated – and vaccines work – they would be at any risk from an unvaccinated child? If you are afraid of your child being the one for whom the vaccine fails, then I have the same right to be afraid that my child may be the one who is vaccine damaged. My son’s class is about to get the flu nasal vaccine and he is the one who will be most at risk from a class full of kids shedding various influenza viruses.

    I would rather go back to the days of chickenpox, measles, whooping cough (which my kids and I had last year and survived) than to the present day afflictions of childhood cancer, allergies, asthma, autism, type 1 diabetes etc.

    Like

  499. Gray Falcon
    November 28, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    Uwakwe: Tell me something, if you use a seatbelt and drive defensively, does that mean you have nothing to worry about from drunk drivers? A vaccine isn’t a perfect prevention, but it still works.

    Like

  500. Lawrence
    November 28, 2016 at 1:19 pm

    As I am suffering from Shingles right now, I can rightly say that I am exceedingly happy that my own kids won’t have to suffer as I am suffering right now…..

    And since none of those conditions you mention are actually related to vaccines, it appears that you’d be happy to go back to the days where thousands of kids died each year, and tens of thousands suffered from the debilitating effects of those diseases – like SSPE, blindness, deafness and other disabilities.

    Seriously, you need to study more.

    Like

  501. Chris
    November 28, 2016 at 4:32 pm

    Uwakwe: “I don’t understand why, if your child is vaccinated – and vaccines work – they would be at any risk from an unvaccinated child?”

    Both the MMR and varicella vaccines are give after a child’s first birthday. What is your proven plan to protect babies from measles, mumps and chicken pox? Since I had to take care of a very miserable six month old baby with chicken pox who was covered itchy open wounds known as “pox”, you better have a very good answer.

    Also, measles in babies can cause a slow lingering death with SSPE:
    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-sspe-20150624-story.html

    Do tell us why that is a good thing to happen to a child.

    From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm?s_cid=mm6406a5_w

    Which says:

    Twelve of the unvaccinated patients were infants too young to be vaccinated. Among the 37 remaining vaccine-eligible patients, 28 (67%) were intentionally unvaccinated because of personal beliefs, and one was on an alternative plan for vaccination. Among the 28 intentionally unvaccinated patients, 18 were children (aged <18 years), and 10 were adults. Patients range in age from 6 weeks to 70 years; the median age is 22 years. Among the 84 patients with known hospitalization status, 17 (20%) were hospitalized.

    So twelve babies were sickened because of the decisions by another family that chose to not vaccinate. Anyone responsible for letting those kids get sick, with a much higher chance of getting SSPE later, should be ashamed.

    Like

  502. Chris
    November 28, 2016 at 4:50 pm

    Uwakwe: ” My son’s class is about to get the flu nasal vaccine and he is the one who will be most at risk from a class full of kids shedding various influenza viruses.”

    First, where are you that they give vaccines at school? Also why are they using a vaccine that was found to not actually work? It is not recommended for use in the USA, and may not even be available:
    http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2016/s0622-laiv-flu.html

    Are you commenting from some kind of time bubble? Perhaps that is why you decided to grace us with your presence on a more than two year old article.

    Like

  503. Janie
    November 28, 2016 at 6:26 pm

    Lawrence, didn’t you get the shingles vaccine? It is available.

    Like

  504. Chris
    November 28, 2016 at 6:41 pm

    It is available when you are older than fifty years old. Yes, I have had mine.

    Like

  505. Lawrence
    November 28, 2016 at 8:36 pm

    As Chris stated, depending on where are are, it is recommended for either 50 or 60 or older.

    As I am not that old yet, it was not recommended for me.

    Of course, I will be getting the vaccine as soon as this infection abates, because it can prevent a reoccurrence. Again, based on my level of pain and discomfort, no parent should wish this on their child…..

    Like

  506. Chris
    November 28, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    Around here it is available for over fifty everywhere, including pharmacies. It is just that most health insurance won’t pay for until age sixty.

    I am sorry you got a bad break there, Lawrence. It is one thing I worry about for my youngest who got chicken pox as an infant. That means she has higher chance of getting shingles in her twenties, especially when under stress. Like when she starts graduate school next year to become a speech therapist.

    So, I really really really want Uwakwe to tell me why it is a “good” thing for babies under age one to get measles and/or chicken pox.

    Like

  507. Lawrence
    November 29, 2016 at 6:51 am

    I will certainly be putting in a call to my PCP in a few weeks, when this subsides.

    And yes, sometimes we all need a little, personal, reminder of how important vaccinations are – although I will say that I certainly underestimated the agony of Shingles.

    Like

  508. Lori Scanlon
    December 22, 2016 at 1:31 pm

    What a horrible article. But have it your way…I wouldn’t want my kids hanging out with children of uneducated sheep, they may get brainwashed against critical thinking! Medical doctors really have zero credibility these days, you sold out to insurance companies and big pharma, what a disgrace! “FIRST DO NO HARM”

    Like

  509. Lawrence
    December 22, 2016 at 2:42 pm

    Anti-vax ers routinely show distinct signs of a lack of basic reasoning skills, scientific understanding, and certainly no real education of chemistry, biology, or immunology.

    And they call us “sheep.”

    Like

  510. Chris
    December 22, 2016 at 4:44 pm

    Ms. Scanlon: “Medical doctors really have zero credibility these days,..”

    So where do you take your kids when they get a high fever or break a bone? A lawyer?

    Like

  511. Noel
    December 27, 2016 at 12:18 am

    It is rude and self righteous to think that just because you vaccinate your children that another parent is in the wrong for choosing not to. I am choosing to because everyone else makes such a fuss about it, when there are truly pros and cons to both sides. Every parent that loves their child wants the best for their child. If you think because a child is unvaccinated that means they don’t love and try to protect them, that is an insidious thought process and you are only going to be more likely to offend someone. I have decided to catch my son up on his vaccines because that is how the pros and cons are currently weighing up for me, but I certainly don’t believe I will be keeping him from playing with unvaccinated children, whose parents likely also weighed the pros and cons and decided otherwise. My son is strong and healthy, has a ton of vitamin C in his diet, and will be getting his vaccines for himself.. I believe this and much prayer will be enough to keep him safe from any disease he is vaccinated for, so why should I offend a parent and an unvaccinated child? In understand wanting to protect our children from harm’s way.. But vaccines are not the only way… I am choosing them because I think, at least some of them, are really important right now.. The more the merrier, other than the alleged mercury and the constant poking and prodding of otherwise healthy children. I personally am tired of my child who is well not being able to spend time with other children because their parents are filled with fear, when God’s people are called to have faith. Therefore I will put faith in Him and in these vaccines if it means pulling families together, but I am otherwise disgusted at this point by other parents’ lack of faith and and rejection of the boy that I keep clean and who has a naturally strong immune system, considering that their children are indeed vaccinated already. How much more protection do we really need? I believe I and many other mom’s already do A LOT to protect our children.. I believe I give my very best. I am so sick of the very many things that separate believers when we are called to come together in faith… Where do we draw the line? I think we all need a faith booster shot.. God has always been in control… Before, after, and during vaccinations… And incriminating parents for choosing a path that is different than yours is incriminating in and of itself, and self righteous. I’ve had my say. I’m out.

    Like

  512. Chris
    December 27, 2016 at 2:09 am

    Noel: “The more the merrier, other than the alleged mercury and the constant poking and prodding of otherwise healthy children. ”

    Please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Please do not mention influenza because there are three without thimerosal available. Please provide verifiable documentation.

    “God has always been in control.”

    By the hammer of Thor, which one? The one that lets us use our intellect to learn about the world (and how to use paragraphs), or the one that lets kids die from diseases just like they did in the good ol’ days, even after one deity decided that genocide with 40 days and 40 nights of constant rain leaving only one family alive in a stinky big boat of animals. Please do be specific, and provide the evidence that deity reduced childhood mortality in the 20th century all by itself without any human brain intervention:
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4829a1.htm

    Did my great-grandparents worship the wrong deity when they lost both of their sons to disease before age eight? The family Bible had a signature of one signing a temperance pledge when he was six years old. Did the deity decide to guarantee that child kept the pledge by killing him a couple of years later? What about the son that died before he turned one year old? Please, we all want to know!

    Then when you are done proving your deity made sure that families could be certain their children would grow up, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases.

    Finally, please thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate their children. They are protecting yours by increasing your community’s immunity to some rather nasty diseases. Though it is imperfect, because folks like you tend to gather together which increases the chances of spreading diseases.

    Like

  513. Lawrence
    December 27, 2016 at 3:38 pm

    It is inappropriate to get into a religious argument about vaccines – because the counter-argument is always that “God” allowed billions of people to die of disease, long before vaccines became available (imagine the millions of “faithful” who died during the Plague Years).

    Diseases don’t care if you have a strong immune system or not – they are equal opportunity infectors…it has only been since the advent of both vaccines and antibiotics (to cover both viral and bacterial diseases) that we saw the precipitous drop in infection and mortality rates for most diseases.

    And to be honest – vaccination is a very “Christian” thing to partake in, since you are not only protecting yourself, but you are making the choice to also protect others as well – including those who are too young or medically-unable to be vaccinated in the first place.

    Like

  1. July 17, 2014 at 12:51 pm
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