Kick the Flu Out of School
Dec 12, 2013

This post was written by Melody Butler, a pediatric RN and mother of four.  As a vocal vaccine advocate, Melody founded Nurses Who Vaccinate and is a Shot@Life Immunization Champion.  She recently hosted a Nurses Night Out even to highlight the need for improved global vaccine access and just this morning appeared on Fox5 Good Day NY in support of a new influenza immunization policy for preschool children in the state of New York.  We’re grateful for parents and professionals like Melody who continually work to educate others on the importance of immunizations.

Last year 169 children died from influenza.  To put that number into perspective, that’s more than six Kindergarten classes.  Although flu deaths in adults are scientific estimates, medical researchers know the exact number of children who die from the flu because it is a mandated notifiable condition.  And while some of the pediatric fatalities may have had a history of risk factors, such as asthma and diabetes, reports have shown that even healthy children and teens accounted for almost half of deaths attributed to the flu.
Melody Butler is pictured with two of the Kick the Flu Out of School contest participants.Every child is at risk.  That’s why it is recommended that children six months of age and older get a flu shot to protect them against the influenza virus.  As nurses, doctors and parental vaccine advocates, we aim to educate and advocate for immunizations to protect our patients, children and families.   However, sometimes pamphlets and posters can only go so far and we need to think outside of the box.
That’s where Nurses Who Vaccinate, Families Fighting Flu and Voices for Vaccines come in. Through a special partnership, these three public health organizations created a fun and easy way to promote and encourage children and their families to get their flu shots. The “Kick the Flu out of School” concepts centers around a contest that can be held within a school.  These three organizations collaborated to create a toolkit that can be used by parents, PTA’s, school nurses and school personnel to help encourage students to get influenza vaccines.
The toolkit features letters and handouts that can be downloaded, edited and personalized to fit a certain school’s needs such as:

  • Explanation and directions for school and parent leaders
  •  Letter to families and students introducing the contest
  •  Solicitation to local businesses for contest prizes
  •  Contest entry form for students

Recently, as a member of the safety committee on the local PTA, I hosted a “Kick the Flu Out of School” contest in my children’s elementary school.  Local businesses were quite enthusiastic to participate and donated prizes for the children and parents. From ice cream cones, to indoor playground time, children and parents were very excited to be acknowledged for helping to contribute to our community immunity. Many parents explained that getting their children vaccinated was a “no brainier”, but that the contest was an added reminder of how important it is to keep everyone in the family protected. One mother was incredibly supportive and explained how important it was for her asthmatic child to get a flu shot.  Not only could her son’s health suffer if he was to get the flu , but the contest encouraged many of his friends to get their flu vaccines, which helps provide him with additional protection for her vulnerable child.
The contest began early in the school year and corresponded with the beginning of flu season.  With almost 50 participants, this year’s contest not only helped encourage early vaccination, but it also generated a lot of discussion about the dangers of influenza.  Many of the families that didn’t get their shots in time to participate in the contest explained that they still planned on getting the vaccine this season.  And it’s not too late for YOU to start planning a “Kick the Flu Out of School” contest in your child’s school!   Since flu season has been known to last as late as May, getting a flu shot now will still provide families with at least five more months of protection!
Take advantage of National Influenza Vaccination Week and start up a conversation with your school nurse, PTA board, administrations and staff.  Tell them how important it is to protect the children of your community and ask them to support a contest in your school.  The attention that you can generate through this contest will not only encourage families to get their influenza vaccines, but it will also encourage families to do their part to help protect the entire community.
If you would like to host a contest in your school and have questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.  When you host your own contest, be sure to take pictures and share your experiences.

To connect with Melody, follow @nurseswhovax on Twitter, like Nurses Who Vaccinate on Facebook or subscribe to the Nurses Who Vaccinate blog.

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211 responses to “Kick the Flu Out of School”

  1. I would like to know how many of the children that passed away from the flu did in fact take a flu shot ? Also how many children in the USA die of complications from taking the flu shot or end up having life threatening reactions that lead to a permanent disability ? With that being said, since the influenza virus is constantly mutating on a daily,monthly annually basis – the present flu shot given will never match the new mutated strain. Therefore there is no protection. Let alone the fact that the flu shot prevents and stops the immune system from protecting the human body. It physically shuts the immune system down allowing the outdated flu shot to protect you. Hence is the reason why people die. They are unprotected naturally and chemically. Oh by the way, how many people that had died from influenza in the past few years had taken the flu shot ? The percentage is very high ! Now your trying to force infants to take these injections ……….? Let alone the fact that one of the chemicals infused in it is mercury ! One another note ! Have you followed the increase in autistic children in the last 10 years ? It has increased ten fold. Why do you think ? Is it the air and water they breathe that has all of a sudden changed ? NOT ! Oh by the way……… I had the flu last year. Which was confirmed by the local hospital when I was admitted….. Full blown influenza…..problem was I had low grade fever , very little flu like symptoms. The doctor said the strain I had would normally knock out an individual in bed for weeks…… He said it was obvious the flu shot was doing its job. The only problem was I have not taken a flu shot in 20 years. I immediately informed him of this and he said ………then you obviously have a very strong immune system that is keeping this virus at bay let alone the fact that my body was building up natural antibodies from the invading virus only making me stronger to combat it in the future. Unfortunately it seems that in this day and age children are being prevented from building up their own natural defenses. I wish all of these children we’ll.

  2. Lawrence says:

    @AJ – wow, any actual citations for any of that?

  3. Paul S says:

    @Melody Butler, a pediatric RN and mother of four: My position regarding you and your nursing buddies: :you worry about the health of your children and I’ll worry about the health of my children.
    Please get your freaking nose out of my family business.

  4. Lawrence says:

    @Paul – and if you can sick with a vaccine-preventable disease, we’ll expect that you’ll treat them at home & take your chances….because god forbid you utilize modern medical care…..

  5. Jake Brown says:

    it’s defiantly safer not to vaccinate. The long term health consequences of vaccine induced diseases will not be out on the main stream media for many years. There is way to much corruption and profit in the vaccine, pharmisudical drug companies and FDA. Very hard to deny this fact unless you’ve been asleep at the wheel

  6. Lawrence says:

    @Jake – well, actually it is easy to deny, since the science doesn’t support your contentions…..and if you have any citations that back up your claims, we’d love to see them.

  7. Lenora says:

    Why do all the cranks frequent these well-sourced, evenhanded blog posts? I guess that question answers itself. Paul, your decision not to vaccinate your child is itself an intrusion into my family business, because I have an asthmatic child. If she contracts flu from your unvaccinated child, there will be hell to pay, believe me. You choose to benefit from herd immunity created by vaccinated individuals, and you enjoy spending time in public places, perhaps public schools, and yet you tell someone concerned about public health to keep her “freaking nose” out of your “family business”? I should be surprised at your inability to see the astounding hypocrisy of your comments, but I’m not.

  8. Lawrence says:

    @Lenora – also, that schools have very legitimate reasons to push for the maximize number of capable children being vaccinated, to help protect those that cannot be – and we must always be aware that vaccines are not 100% effective, so expanded coverage helps protect everyone….
    The Science is in folks, vaccines are safe and effective – it is only the conspiracy scaremongers that rehash the same old tired lies, misinformation and misinterpretation of data.

  9. John Smith says:

    Lenora, Cranks? Excuse us for being proactive and taking our own health into our own hands.
    Flu, from unvaccinated child? The flu vaccine is one of the least effective vaccines on the market. Do you know how many people actually get the flu? A very small percentage. Most people have “flu-like” symptoms but it is not influenza. The vaccine is made for actual influenza. If you are lucky enough to get influenza, you still have to hope they picked the right strains that year out of hundreds of strains to choose from. If you have influenza, and they picked the right strain, then you still have to count on the vaccine being effective, and it is not 100% effective. Looking at all of those factors you can see that the flu vaccine doesn’t mean much. Also, you can’t trace back who you caught a virus from; that is a ridiculous notion. And if there is “hell” to pay if you kid gets the flu, who is going to pay when my kid is injured by the vaccine? Who is going to pay? I’ll tell you who, the kid and the family and that’s it.

  10. Melody RN says:

    Thank you Vaccinate Your Baby for sharing the Kick the Flu Out of School program!
    It’s a great way to encourage students and families to get their influenza vaccine and initiate discussion within the community about the importance of vaccinating to protect oneself from the flu.
    Flu shots are safe and effective and we have the science to prove it.

  11. Lawrence says:

    @John – there is always the Vaccine Court….people who die or get injured from actual Vaccine-preventable diseases (you know, like the Flu that kills and maims thousands every year) have no recompense…..and even the Cochrane Review, for all of their dings against the effectiveness of the vaccine, clearly state that it is one of the safest vaccines on the market with the lowest rate of adverse reactions….
    So stick that in your pipe & smoke it.

  12. John Smith says:

    Lawrence: Really? The Vaccine Court? You think any amount of money makes any difference to those families?
    The Cochrane Review states that over-all the flu vaccine will help about 5% of the time.
    Also, there are plenty of studies proving correlation of the flu vaccine and Alzheimer’s, dementia, and auto immune diseases. Even my own father had a reaction to the flu shot last year and wasn’t himself mentally for about 1 week.
    I won’t lower my self your level and call you any names or put you down, people don’t respect those who act like that.

  13. Lawrence says:

    @JS – I’m trying to figure out which sock-puppet you are…..until then, how about you cite these “studies” of yours?

  14. Lawrence says:

    @John – also, you could point us to your Father’s VAERS entry as well.

  15. John Smith says:

    And what sock puppet do you go by Lawrence?
    My father doesn’t have a vaers entry or I would point you that way.
    I am sure you are already familiar with the studies. No need to cite.

  16. Lawrence says:

    @John – not a single anti-vax head has been able to cite legitimate studies (or any studies at all, for that matter).
    How about you be the first – shouldn’t be hard, right?

  17. Lawrence says:

    And why didn’t you file a VAERS entry? If you don’t, how can those reactions be tracked and investigated?

  18. Lawrence says:

    Information about VAERS & why it is important:
    And what it can and can’t be used for (and why).

  19. John Smith says:

    Because the Doctor was being problematic and unresponsive. All the more reason I know this is way more common then any vaers reports.

  20. Lawrence says:

    Anyone can file a VAERS report – it doesn’t have to be the doctor…(though it helps).

  21. Lawrence says:

    Back on topic, my oldest son’s elementary school held their annual flu vaccine clinic last month & there was record turnout – they had to expand the clinic three times because of all of the interest (both kids and adults).
    Great to see so many people being proactive for their health….(and the health of others).

  22. Haley says:

    I agree with AJ, Paul, Jake, and John. The flu shot is dangerous and ineffective at every age. The local supermarket here recommends giving a mercury-containing flu shot to everyone over six months old until 65, when they recommend switching to the mercury-free version. Lenora, you would have to demand that all the teachers and staff at your child’s school be mandated to get the shot, and you’d have to come up with an effective shot before your stance would make any sense. And you’d also have to decide how much you’d be willing to contribute to taking care of children permanently damaged by the flu shot if they unwillingly got it to possibly protect your child. And how much you’d be willing to contribute to compensate the parents of children like Kaylee Madsen, killed by the flu vaccine.

  23. Lawrence says:

    @Haley – except that nothing you stated is actually true….most flu vaccines now are completely thimerasol-free (and flu-mist never had it).
    If you can post citations for anything you said, you should – otherwise, you’ll just join the list of anti-vax liars we’ve been forced to contend with.

  24. Chris says:

    Haley: “The local supermarket here recommends giving a mercury-containing flu shot to everyone over six months old until 65, when they recommend switching to the mercury-free version.”
    Depending on what state you live, that could be quite illegal. Many states (without much evidence) have made laws requiring thimerosal-free vaccines for children and pregnant women.
    Now, as to these claims: “The flu shot is dangerous” and ” children permanently damaged by the flu shot if they unwillingly got it to possibly protect your child”
    Please post the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the influenza vaccine causes at least as many deaths as the number of children who have died from flu last year (169, as mentioned in the above article). Provide the evidence.
    and finally: “Kaylee Madsen, killed by the flu vaccine.”
    Citation needed. I can’t find anything about this on the Googles.

  25. dingo199 says:

    Latest stats on efficacy of the last season’s flu vaccine:
    “From October 2012 to May 2013, influenza vaccination resulted in an estimated 6.6 million (95% confidence interval [CI] = 4,011,725–10,551,756) fewer illnesses, 3.2 million (CI = 1,911,592−5,206,874) fewer medically attended illnesses, and 79,260 (CI = 39,530–136,744) fewer hospitalizations (Table 2). Overall, 17.3% (CI = 16.2%–18.0%) of adverse health outcomes associated with influenza were prevented.”
    It may not be the best vaccine that exists, but it is still reasonably effective at preventing illness and complications. (But then, if a vaccine isn’t absolutely perfect, and with absolutely no side effects whatsoever, then antivaxers will claim it is useless.) A bit like saying because seatbelts don’t prevent all MVA deaths, and because they rarely can actually harm people by trapping them in their vehicles, that they should be banned.

  26. dingo199 says:

    @ “John Smith”,
    I think you will find that flu vaccine correlates with a LOWER risk of Alzheimer’s. Several studies indicate this.

  27. Osmond says:

    Chris: I’m not sure what state you are in, but here in Utah there is no requirement to give thimerosal free vaccines to anybody. Do they make them available? Yes, but there is no requirement.
    Lawrence: I also wouldn’t say that “most” are thimerosal free. You better be asking if you expect to get one without thimerosal.
    Dingo: “Reasonably effective” is not worth the risk of injury and/or future health issues.

  28. Chris says:

    Well, it happens to be the law in my state and in California. And yes, the county’s public health department make them available.
    Utah is different from many states. Including being the center of the supplement business world. Helped along by Senator Orrin Hatch. Instead of being the “Bee Hive State”, perhaps Utah should be called the “Supplements are Us State.”
    Now here is a little math test for you from this page: are 89 million doses greater than half or more than half of 145 million?
    Then when you are done with that, you made this claim: “not worth the risk of injury and/or future health issues.” Please provide the PubMed indexed study from a qualified reputable researcher that the influenza vaccines caused more deaths (169 children last year) and disability than the actual disease.

  29. lilady says:

    So Osmond…how many doses of influenza vaccine will be available for the 2013-2014 Influenza Season?
    How what percentage of those ~138-145 million doses of influenza vaccine doses are packaged in single doses vials or in single dose preloaded syringes, without Thimerosal?
    Haley…you’re new here…I think. So perhaps there is an excuse for you touting out that reported death of a child four days after she received an influenza shot, which another poster and its sockies were blathering about, January 2012.
    Here’s what the medical examiner reported about the cause of death (myocarditis caused by a virus).
    You do know, don’t you, that there are no live viruses contained in any seasonal influenza injections?
    How about an acknowledgment, that your source was an unreliable, unscientific, anti-vaccine website?
    See, that’s the difference between Shot of Prevention and other reliable science-based websites…and the crude, unscientific crank websites. Those alternative crank websites spread unsubstantiated rumors about vaccine “injuries” and vaccine “deaths” in order to deter credulous parents from getting their children fully immunized. THEY NEVER, EVER RETRACT THEIR STATEMENTS…EVEN AFTER IT IS PROVEN THAT THE VACCINE DID NOT CAUSE AN INJURY OR A DEATH.

  30. Chris says:

    lilady: “Haley…you’re new here…I think. So perhaps there is an excuse for you touting out that reported death of a child four days after she received an influenza shot, which another poster and its sockies were blathering about, January 2012.”
    No, she couldn’t be! That child was not named “Kaylee Madsen.” Perhaps Haley such made it up.

  31. Chris says:

    Ugh, never type before coffee… ” Perhaps Haley just made it up.”

  32. lilady says:

    Well, I looked for “Kaylee Madsen” and for “Kaylee Madsen flu vaccine death” on the internets and found nothing.
    There are a few internet sites with that name and all the “Kaylee Madsens are alive and well with their own FaceBook pages.
    Where’s Haley? I’m looking for her to post a link.

  33. My2Cents says:

    Don’t know if this is the same information, or where you live, but here’s a flyer I saw in our local grocery store.
    It says “Join the Schnucks Flu Fighters,” “Fluzone/Fluzone High-Dose/Fluzone Intradermal Vaccine Q&A: Fluzone vaccine is for people six months of age and older. Fluzone vaccine is a shot given into the muscle or skin of the arm. Fluzone High-Dose vaccine is a preservative-free vaccine that is a higher dose of Fluzone for people 65 years of age and older.”
    I believe “Preservative-free” means mercury-free, since that is the preservative used in the basic version for infants, children, and everyone else except pregnant women up to 65. This is possibly the most popular brand of flu vaccine. From what I understand, most injectable flu vaccines still have Thimerosal (mercury). It is not very honest to say “preservative-free” without admitting that the preservative in most of them is mercury, including for babies and children.

  34. Lawrence says:

    @My2Cents – thimerasol is to mercury as table salt is to chlorine / sodium… really should know the difference.

  35. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, if there isn’t anything to worry about in regards to Thimerosal, then why do they not recommend it for certain groups?

  36. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – because of fear-mongering back in the late 1990’s…..fortunately, science has prevailed, though we have the luxury in this country of demanding “preservative-free” flu shots / vaccines….not so much in the 3rd World.
    You should really read this series of studies:

  37. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, I don’t believe they took Thimerosal out of some vaccine’s due to “fear mongering”. If they gave into fear mongering, they would be out of business. No, there must be another reason….

  38. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – actually, there was some conjecture at the time that it could be a problem, thus on the principle of “better safe than sorry” the mandate came down to eliminate thimerosal from the US Pediatric Schedule – which has been done….not to mention the host of vaccines (including the MMR) which never had it.
    Of course, based on further research (which I included above) it turns out those fears were unfounded.

  39. My2Cents says:

    Except my 5 year old daughter got the h1n1 vaccine with Thimerosal last year. And if they were really concerned with “better safe than sorry” they would also eliminate the aluminum.

  40. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – again, there is a huge difference between elemental aluminum and aluminum salts….you really need to brush up on basic chemistry.

  41. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, and you said the same thing about Thimerosal. Then you said they took it out to be safe rather than sorry. The same holds true with aluminum. Why not be safe rather than sorry?

  42. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – because there is no research (none) showing that there could be a detrimental effect….and of course, looking back, all of the research shows that Thimerosal is safe as well….so, unless you have some Science, you don’t have a leg to stand on & your opinion is downright wrong.

  43. lilady says:

    Haley, your child did not get a separate H1N1 strain vaccine, last year. The H1N1 strain of influenza has been incorporated into every seasonal influenza vaccine (2010-2011, 2011-2012, 2012-2013 and 2013-2014). That separate H1N1 flu vaccine was only available September 2009-May 2010 inclusive. Did you make another mistake…or are you just making up stuff?
    How about you pony up those citations/links to the website(s) where you got that information about a child dying from receiving a seasonal influenza vaccine shot?

  44. lilady says:

    @My2Cents: You haven’t read any of the vaccine safety studies that Lawrence linked to, have you?
    Your questions about Thimerosal have already been answered on this thread and on past threads at Shot of Prevention. You really should bring your basic skills up to speed, specifically Chemistry 101, to understand the differences between elementary Hg, inorganic mercury and the organomercury compound Thimerosal.
    Here, a simple explanation from the American Academy of Pediatrics, (Orenstein, etal) detailing the studies that have been done during the intervening years, since Thimerosal as used as a preservative in multi-dose vaccine vials was removed from all childhood vaccines:
    Global Vaccination Recommendations and Thimerosal
    “…..Overwhelmingly, the evidence collected over the past 15 years has failed to yield any evidence of significant harm, including serious neurodevelopmental disorders, from use of thimerosal in vaccines. Dozens of studies from countries around the world have supported the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Specifically, the Institute of Medicine, and others have concluded that the evidence favors rejection of a link between thimerosal and autism.6–12 Careful studies of the risk of other serious neurodevelopmental disorders have failed to support a causal link with thimerosal.13–17 In May 2002, the American Academy of Pediatrics retired its 1999 statement on thimerosal after evaluating new studies.3,18 The original decision is explained in an accompanying commentary in this issue by Dr Louis Z. Cooper and Dr Samuel Katz.19 Had the evidence that is available now been available in 1999, the policy reducing thimerosal use would likely have not been implemented. Furthermore, in 2008 the World Health Organization (WHO) endorsed the use of thimerosal in vaccines.20…..”
    BTW, you don’t get to bring up another ingredient (aluminum salts) in vaccines, as a thread derailing tactic, which has already been covered in other threads on Shot of Prevention.

  45. My2Cents says:

    lilady, my daughter did get the h1n1 last year and it did contain Thimerosal.
    Try Goog-ling the name Kaylynne Matten if you want the name of the girl Haley mentioned.

  46. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – there was no “H1N-only” formulation last year (or since 2008 – 2009)

  47. My2Cents says:

    Sorry…you are wrong about that Lawrence.

  48. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – why would they have an “H1N1-only” formulation, if it was no longer the dominant circulating flu strain?
    I call shennanigans on you, unless you are able to provide proof.

  49. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – and you do know that the Flu Vaccine is re-formulated every year to include the dominant circulating strains, right (so it actually includes more than just one)?
    Care to clarify your fallacious statement above?

  50. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, still wrong. You can keep asking but the answer will always be the same. It is what it is and I can’t explain why it is, all I know is she got it last year and it DID have Thimerosal in it.
    Are you stating that the flu vaccine now does include the h1n1 in it and it doesn’t have Thimerosal in it?

  51. lilady says:

    @ M2C: I already “googled” to find the correct name of the child who Haley claimed died because she received the 2012-2013 vaccine shot. I also provided a link to the newspaper article which reported the results of the medical examiner’s autopsy. The child died from a “viral myocarditis”; the seasonal influenza vaccine is not a “live virus” vaccine.
    You haven’t provided a link to the CDC or the FDA stating that a single valent H1N1 flu vaccine has been manufactured and distributed, since the remaining supply of the 2009-2010 single valent H1N1 vaccine was destroyed in 2010.
    I did find a link to an anti-vaccine website, where I believe, you got your wrong information.
    So, prove me wrong. Show me where you got that dreadfully wrong information.
    Are you ashamed of your sources that you based your inane inaccurate lying posts on?

  52. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – see, now you are playing semantics….you specifically said she was given the H1N1 Flu Vaccine, which hasn’t been given since early 2010……now, the reformulation of the vaccine includes multiple strains, including H1N1, so you were in fact lying & are now backtracking to attempt to save face.
    As I’ve already cited, Thimerosal has been studied and is safe – so having it in a flu vaccine that your child received isn’t even an issue….
    Here they are for you again, if you missed it the first time:

  53. lilady says:

    @ Lawrence: Too bad that M2C has to resort to semantics and other troll-like behaviors to post his/her comments.
    I’m betting that M2C still will not read any of the studies contained in your link.
    Where’s Haley?

  54. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, I am not back tracking anything and stand by my post.
    The point is I’m not sure what you are arguing about? The fact is h1n1 is available now with the regular flu shot right? and it does have Thimerosal in it? Right? And this is being given to children right? And you said they took it out to be safe than sorry right? Am I missing something here?

  55. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – so, what exactly is your problem? Because otherwise, you just sound like a very uneducated individual who is throwing out a bunch of terms that you don’t seem to properly understand….

  56. dingo199 says:

    M2C – I call foul. Your story stinks.
    Kids under 6 are not given thimerosal containing flu vaccines, and there is no monovalent H1N1 vaccine in use.
    Try again,, but do a bit of proper “google” research before you contrive your next unfeasible tale.

  57. Michelle says:

    “Fluzone vaccine is for people six months of age and older. Fluzone vaccine is a shot given into the muscle or skin of the arm. Fluzone High-Dose vaccine is a preservative-free vaccine that is a higher dose of Fluzone for people 65 years of age and older.” Babies six months and up get the mercury-containing version. Only old people and pregnant women get the mercury-free one.

  58. Chris says:

    “Babies six months and up get the mercury-containing version. Only old people and pregnant women get the mercury-free one.”
    Citation needed. Especially for the states of California, Delaware, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, New York and Washington.

  59. Michele says:

    From the flyer in all the stores of that chain: Join the Schnucks Flu Fighters, Fluzone/Fluzone HIgh-Dose/Fluzone Intra Dermal Vaccine Q & A. Quote from the first two bullet points explaining who should get each version.

  60. lilady says:

    I believe you are mistaken Michele. Fluzone high dose intradermal flu vaccine is NOT licensed for immunizing infants or children:

  61. Chris says:

    Michele: “From the flyer in all the stores of that chain:”
    I am sorry, but that is not a “citation.” Plus, what does it have to do with the states of California, Delaware, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, New York and Washington? Think carefully why I am listing those particular states.
    Also, look at Comment #28. Click on the link and answer the question: “Is 89 million doses greater than half or more than half of 145 million?”
    One final question: Have you considered asking your child’s doctor for a thimerosal free influenza vaccine? Is that totally out of the question?

  62. Mchelle says:

    The flyer had information about all three versions of Fluzone listed, and for all age groups. It didn’t say the intradermal kind was for children. Children were put in the first category for the basic vaccine, ages six months to 65 years, containing mercury.
    The point is not that parents cannot request a mercury-free vaccine, but that that pharmacy has been told it can give the mercury-containing basic flu vaccine to infants and children.

  63. Chris says:

    Then don’t go to that pharmacy. Go to another pharmacy or to an actual clinic.
    The pharmacy we went to only vaccinates those above the age of five.

  64. Chris says:

    Also, according to this there are two Fluzone influenza vaccines for kids, and the single dose version does not have thimerosal:
    So just ask for that single dose version.

  65. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – I’m still not sure why Michelle or M2C is upset, since nothing they’ve pointed out is actually a problem or a risk……and certainly not based on any evidence of any kind – and has been refuted multiple times (here –
    So again, I ask them to articulate exactly what their problem is….

  66. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, the point is you said they took Thimerosal out to be “safe rather than sorry”. Well, Thimerosal is NOT out of most of the different flu vaccine options and they are still giving it to young children. That is the problem. How is that being “safe rather than sorry”?

  67. Chris says:

    So what? There is no evidence the amount in vaccines were dangerous.
    And for your children, go to the FDA list I posted and specifically ask by brand and type one of the four out of eight influenza vaccines approved for children that have the word “free” in the thimerosal content column.
    Even the Fluzone brand has a thimerosal free version.
    Also, note that the states I listed have legislation requiring children only be given thimerosal free vaccines. The biggest one is California, which also has been keeping records. Has the rate of autism there gone up or down in the last ten years?
    You will also note that it has only been in the last few years that kids have been encouraged to get influenza vaccines. My oldest has a heart condition, so he in the first group allowed flu vaccine because he had priority, and by the time I tried getting his siblings a flu shot there were none to be had. The last time I looked less than half of children get an annual flu shot.
    So if you are going to belly-ache about the less than half of those available with thimerosal being available to kids, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It is not that important compared to the real deaths cause by influenza. So if you have some actual data showing the influenza vaccines cause more injury than the actual disease that killed 169 children last year, please present that.
    Or is the existence of thimerosal more scary than kids dying from flu?

  68. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – so, all of the evidence that has been collected over the past decade and a half, showing that Thimerosal is safe means nothing to you?
    You really are dense, aren’t you?

  69. My2Cents says:

    Chris, Who said anything about autism? The point is somebody decided Thimerosal wasn’t safe and yet it is still in the vaccines. You don’t see a problem with this? Tell me why they decided to take Thimerosal out again?
    Lawrence, Does it make you feel better about yourself putting people down? It’s really too bad you can’t have a discussion about this without feeling so threatened, otherwise, you wouldn’t have to keep putting people down.

  70. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – but you aren’t interested in a discussion, are you? You continue to point out items and facts that have no relevance to the topic at hand…and I am merely suggesting that you aren’t able to grasp the science that has been presented to refute your concerns.

  71. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, and you can’t answer a simple question, and instead try and muddy the waters because you have no answers, no defense.

  72. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – what question? The safety profile of Thimerosal has been proven by over a decade of research….you are the one that can’t seem to get your facts straight.

  73. Chris says:

    “The point is somebody decided Thimerosal wasn’t safe…”
    Citation needed. Please provide verifiable studies showing the thimerosal in vaccines is more dangerous than influenza. Make sure they are done by qualified reputable researchers. Example:
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    “Tell me why they decided to take Thimerosal out again?”
    Well, you can actually read the link I provided in comment #64, where it is fully explained. Just scroll up to the top of the page from the table.
    If that is not enough, it is also explained very well in the “Mercury Rising” chapter of Paul Offit’s Autism’s False Prophets book, and also in Chapter 10, “Thimerosal and the Mystery of the Minamata’s Dancing Cats”, of Seth Mnookin’s The Panic Virus. They should both be available at your local library. You can also read the following abstract:
    Drug Saf. 2001;24(8):567-74.
    Thiomersal in vaccines: is removal warranted?
    Now tell me how much more dangerous any of the influenza vaccines are versus the disease are again.

  74. lilady says:

    @ Lawrence: I think we are dealing with sock puppets here As you know we cannot reason with these sockies.
    @ Michele/Mchelle: Who’s sockie are you? My ‘nym is lilady, not “Lil” and you’ve been busted for your post about Fluzone intradermal vaccine which is not licensed for immunizing infants and children. Time for you and M2C to say bye-bye now.

  75. Chris says:

    Okay, I have just provided two citations from the medical literature, two books and an FDA link with a long and well referenced explanation.
    Now will someone please tell how the teeny tiny bit of thimerosal in about half of the influenza vaccines available in the USA is more dangerous to kids than influenza! Explain to me how worrying about that is going to prevent (repeating the first sentence in this article) Last year 169 children died from influenza.

  76. Lawrence says:

    @lilady – actually, regardless of whether or not they are sock-puppets, it is impossible to reason with those that reject basic Science.

  77. My2Cents says:

    Did you or did you not say, “better safe than sorry”? Lawrence? I guess you are the one that can’t get your facts straight. You can’t even remember what you said only a few short posts ago.

  78. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – see, this is where you have the reading comprehension issue….way back in the 1990’s, there was a hypothesis that Thimerosal could pose an issue – so until there was more information available, it was removed as a precautionary measure.
    When the research was done (over the past 15 years), the original fears were unfounded and had no scientific basis (as was referenced by the multiple studies in my link).
    So, to say there is an issue today or even a fear today, is unfounded – so your concern is unfounded, incorrect and isn’t an issue.
    What you are doing is claiming guilt, even after the defendant was found innocent by the weight of evidence…..

  79. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, this makes no sense. If what you say is true than why are we even discussing the types of flu vaccine without Thimerosal? Why are the posters here so adamant that there are options without it for certain groups etc.? Why haven’t they put it back in all of them? You are just talking in circles.

  80. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – you’re purposely misunderstanding (and being a bit of a tool about it too)……you should really talk to the manufacturers – because certain vaccines types don’t require (or use) a preservative, like FluMist, for example.
    Single Vial dose vaccines don’t use a preservative either – and because the public wanted options, they were given options – one isn’t better than the other, since we know the Science supports the stance that the preservatives used are safe.
    At this point, the main reason we have difference versions is because of scaremongering by people like yourself, who don’t know the Science and refuse to understand what is being told to you.

  81. lilady says:

    So many posts and so many factoids without a scintilla of proof in the form of citations/links.
    M2C: Did you forget what you posted at “Haley” at # 33…which proves that once Haley disappeared, you continued the discussion about Thimerosal:
    So why are YOU continuing the discussion about Thimerosal, after we provided ample proof in the form of actual links for the availability of seasonal flu vaccine in single dose vials and preloaded syringes, which do not contain Thimerosal?

  82. My2Cents says:

    Lawrence, purposely misunderstanding? No, wanted a direct answer, and you can’t seem to give a straight one. You are like talking to a sales guy selling a bad product, constantly spinning information and never really telling the whole truth. And thanks again for calling me more names. I hope it makes you feel like a bigger person by putting people down.

  83. My2Cents says:

    lilady, you haven’t provided any proof about anything. What exactly did I state that I haven’t proven? I have asked more questions then I have stated answers. Nobody can give a straight answer here. That is the problem, and why I keep asking the same questions.

  84. Lawrence says:

    @M2C – then ask a direct question, because you asked first – why was Thimerosal removed in the first place – which was answered…..and then you were provided with the information that showed why the original decision was incorrect & why today, there isn’t an issue.
    If you have another direct question, why don’t you go ahead & ask it – but I doubt you’ll accept the answer anyway.
    Still don’t know what your problem with Thimerosal is, in the first place.

  85. Chris says:

    My2Cents: ” No, wanted a direct answer, and you can’t seem to give a straight one ”
    I have asked you a direct question. What evidence do you have that the teeny tiny bit of thimerosal in less than half of the available influenza doses are more dangerous than a disease that killed 169 children last year?
    You have been given a list of studies, a long explanation on an FDA website, a few PubMed cites and references to two books. Have you bothered to read them? I have been to the library and back. Now have you even checked to see if those two books are at your local library?
    Now, please, for the fourth, fifth or sixth time… provide us the verifiable evidence from reputable qualified researchers that the itsy bitsy bit of thimerosal in less than half of the available influenza doses pose a greater danger than influenza… and need I remind you again, a disease that killed 169 children in the USA last year.

  86. There are a lot of citations out there. All based on facts and data accumulated throughout the years. The problem is that throughout the years most people took their doctors advice as the final words of wisdom. However in this day and age people are educating themselves and realizing that as a society we have been lied to and our loved ones have suffered because of these lies. Problem is Lawrence baby – it’s people like you who are hired to question and ask for proof from readers who respond. This method helps you and your buddies involved create doubt and confusion and unless we spend all day posting factual citations proving vaccinations are toxic – you will try your best to portray us as quacks. We’ll Lawrence unfortunately for you………… people are more educated now then ever before. If your such an advocate for vaccines then why don’t you provide the factual citations to my questions I originally stated before. In other words prove me wrong. However with being said I would like for you to present me data with only one topic……….Let’s start with Mercury in the vaccines ? Show the readers proof that there is no mercury at all in vaccines. That should be easy for you to find. Down load the chemical composition from any official site and post it here. Oh just to help you out on this one……… When you see the chemical THEMEROSAL ……………that’s MERCURY

  87. Lawrence says:

    @AJ – wow, for a person who is demanding “facts & citations” you seem to have posted none of your own….again, you fail basic chemistry.
    Let’s keep this simple:
    Because there is a significant difference between elements & compounds – and as any elementary school science teacher will tell you (and should have taught you), the individual elements in a compound will act in completely different ways – such as the sodium in table salt not explosively combusting when exposed to water….so, because you don’t understand this basic scientific principle, you are completely unable to grasp the rest of the evidence that has been presented to you.
    And falling back to the “shill gambit” again shows the bankruptcy of your position.
    I will also point out – again to refute one of your specific points – vaccines like the MMR and FluMist (for example) never used Thimerosal, ever.
    Given that I’ve posted links to actual studies (see my posts above) – I challenge you to do the same in support of your own position – because throwing out scary names of chemicals doesn’t mean a thing, if you haven’t a clue what they are or how they react in a given environment (see, Dihydrogen Monoxide sounds scary when I spell it out – doesn’t it? I mean, isn’t monoxide stuff that can kill you?)

  88. Lawrence says:

    @AJ – and of course, Todd W does a great job of other explaining the “ingredient gambit” as well here, with plenty of actual citations to back them up:
    Which also addresses throwing out things like “formaldehyde” which people like you try to scare people with – failing to realize that the average human has 100x more formaldehyde circulating in your body right now as a result of natural metabolic processes (produced by your own cells).
    Again, I challenge you to post up your own evidence – because rants and screeds don’t count.

  89. Gray Falcon says:

    @AJ- Thimerosal and mercury are not the same thing. One is a compound containing the other. If you don’t understand why this is important, let me explain with another case: Sodium metal is extremely reactive, and must be contained in oil lest it flare up in contact with atmospheric moisture. Chlorine gas is highly toxic. Sodium chloride is table salt.

  90. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – very hard to get people to understand, when they have no knowledge of basic chemistry (or are just willfully ignorant).

  91. licha hericane says:

    Sheesh! Even I get that AJ is saying ‘where you have thimerosal you have mercury’, as the cdc CLEARLY states ‘thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative’. I doubt very much they meant they were one and the same. They even invite pretensions to download the chemical COMPOSITION, inferring that they understand thimerosal is NOT mercury, but contains it, among other materials.
    Gotta run pretentious babies. Putting up the christmas tree at the vax injured orphanage.
    love, licha

  92. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, if they understood that, they wouldn’t be complaining about it being a mercury compound in the first place. Compounds do not have the same properties as the components do, that’s chemistry 101. We aren’t pretentious, we’re just stating facts you refuse to acknowledge.
    Oh, and if you really insist part of an object is the same as the whole, which would you prefer receiving as a gift: a puppy, or a puppy’s heart?

  93. Lawrence says:

    @licha – wow, your reading comprehension skills have actually gotten worse.

  94. licha hericane says:

    If I were speaking to you Falcon, I would answer that it depends on how TOXIC the puppy was, and how much damage it could do to my health.
    Just stopped for a quick cocoa & cookie break here at the orphanage. More lights to hang on the tree.
    ‘Till next time, toodles pretensions. 😉

  95. Chris says:

    I am still waiting for someone to provide some actual scientific evidence that the teeny tiny bit of thimerosal that is in less than half of the available influenza doses provided a greater threat than the disease that killed 169 children last year.
    AJ Patroni, do you have that data? Where is the survey showing the influenza vaccines cause over a hundred deaths each year?

  96. Gray Falcon says:

    Confession time: I was hoping a made an image disturbing enough that licha would run off in horror. I forgot she’s far more unbalanced than I could ever pretend to be.

  97. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – a lot of these anti-vax trolls are true sociopaths, as evidenced by their uncaring attitudes and various deficiencies in reasoning….best to just ignore.

  98. Fearless says:

    “teeny bit of thimerosal” isn’t dangerous because it is “teeny”

  99. licha hericane says:

    A healthy 7 yr. old girl died 4 days after receiving the flu shot and you two bozo shills are playing games about puppies and sociopaths. I said it before. Shot of pretensions needs a SHOT OF COMPASSION. Grow up boys!. The HORROR is that innocent children are suffering life long illness or dying from vax, while you two yuck it up; to cowardly to admit that you *could* be wrong. It’s ‘shot of pretension’ that’s UNBALANCED!

  100. Fearless says:

    Looks to me like the pro vax commenters look more like the sociopaths. So much negativity and fear.

  101. Chris says:


    “teeny bit of thimerosal” isn’t dangerous because it is “teeny”

    That is right. It is not dangerous because it too small a dose to cause harm. Also, the one atom of mercury in the molecule is part of a compound that does not stay in the body for long.
    “A healthy 7 yr. old girl died 4 days after receiving the flu shot”
    Citation needed.

  102. Chris says:

    Fearless; “So much negativity and fear.”
    Yes, the first sentence in the article is “Last year 169 children died from influenza.”
    That is just frightening. How do you propose we prevent more deaths like that? My suggestion is giving yourself and your family a gift of prevention by getting vaccinated. It is safe, and reduces the chance getting and spreading influenza.

  103. licha hericane says:

    Chris :
    “A healthy 7 yr. old girl died 4 days after receiving the flu shot”
    Citation needed.

    You see Chris, I knew you’d jump right on that, which is why I worded my comment the way I did. So ‘ya REALLY want a citation to prove that Kaylynne died 4 days after her flu shot?
    Again, I IMPLORE you [or any pretentious baby] to please PROVE that no one has ever suffered long term injury or died from vax. Also PROVE that vax is so effective that those who were unvaccinated and have died from a disease that vax should have prevented, would have LIVED had they gotten vaxed. Unequivocally PROVE it. Citations needed! You first! And you CAN’T!

  104. Fearless says:

    “too small of dose to cause harm” Wrong. I know people that if they have one crumb of gluten they have a reaction. I know another who can’t even be in the same room as peanuts. There is no way to tell what any one individuals threshold is for any particular substance and especially when dealing with poison. It’s not a one size fits all.

  105. Chris says:

    Fearless, please provide the verifiable scientific evidence that influenza vaccines have caused serious allergic reactions due to having thimerosal.
    Of course, anyone who has that kind of serious reaction to thimerosal would need to get one of the several versions of the vaccine that don’t have thimerosal (which are at least half of the available supply). So problem solved!
    Also, what is your plan to prevent pediatric deaths from influenza?

  106. Lawrence says:

    @Licha – welcome to the “No True Scotsman” Fallacy. You just became a poster child for it.
    Right now, you are a experiencing a Fallacy Trifecta – very rarely do we get a troll that is so determined to be so misguided and purposely and willfully ignorant.

  107. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – no only that, but that kind of “allergic” reaction would be immediate & treatable….not exactly something that doctors would miss in a pediatric practice.

  108. Lawrence says:

    @licha – so, as a reminder, we have you pulling the “Nirvana” “Perfect World” and “No True Scotsman” Fallacies, all in the space on a single post….I believe that may just be a record.
    Perhaps you’d also be willing to pull a Godwin for us as well – would love to see just how ridiculous you can get (because you’ve done such a good job thus far).
    As far as people who survived as a result of vaccines – I only need to point you to:
    That contains all the information you could every possibly need.

  109. Gray Falcon says:

    @Licha- Can you prove that nobody has ever died or suffered an allergic reaction from eating?

  110. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – actually, I’m waiting for her to prove, unequivocally, that she never killed anyone…..

  111. Chris says:

    Still waiting for the verifiable scientific evidence that the teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit of thimerosal that is in less than half of the available does of influenza vaccine causes more harm than influenza, which killed 169 children last year.
    Saying some people are allergic to peanuts is not scientific evidence on vaccine safety.

  112. Fearless says:

    You totally miss the point. Those would be extreme allergic reactions. How about those from that extreme to everywhere in between? The stuff could be slowly killing you and/or messing up your future health with autoimmune diseases etc. and you wouldn’t know it and you sure wouldn’t be able to blame the vaccine at that point. The point is it is not good for you but you only notice the extreme cases. They have no way of knowing what the effects on the general population is because we all have different genetic make up. Thimerosal is dangerous even in “teeny” amounts.

  113. licha hericane says:

    Lawrence :
    @licha – so, as a reminder, we have you pulling the “Nirvana” “Perfect World” and “No True Scotsman” Fallacies, all in the space on a single post….I believe that may just be a record.
    Perhaps you’d also be willing to pull a Godwin for us as well – would love to see just how ridiculous you can get (because you’ve done such a good job thus far).
    As far as people who survived as a result of vaccines – I only need to point you to:
    That contains all the information you could every possibly need.

    Here’s a fallacy just for YOU Lawrence. A nice red herring for ‘ya. Tu quoque! Turning the table on bully accusers!. P R O V E U N Q U I V O C A L L Y that vax has never harmed, is always effective and therefore worth the risk of injury or death. You’ve been demanding ‘*proof* that vax has harmed’, from us.
    Tu quoque! PROVE THAT IT HASN’T! YOU CAN’T! Is *that* fallacy enough for ‘ya?

    Lawrence :
    @Gray – actually, I’m waiting for her to prove, unequivocally, that she never killed anyone…..

    What an idiotic comment!

  114. Lawrence says:

    What, no Godwin? I’m disappointed in you….too bad, so sad.

  115. Lawrence says:

    And I’m sure you haven’t looked at Project Tycho yet – perhaps you should before posting anymore inane, semi-legible comments……

  116. licha hericane says:

    Lawrence :
    What, no Godwin? I’m disappointed in you….too bad, so sad.

    Phfffft! To late Lawrence! Lax already erroneously used that one on me, for my attributing pretentions to be like a gestapo, with their military like ‘show me zeeee papers’, in your zest for demanding citations. However, I never once mentioned Hitler or nazis.
    Fail again Lawrence! Lose again Lawrence! To bad! So sad. Go sleep it off Lawrence; whatever *it* is, to cause you to make such stupid comments.

  117. licha hericane says:

    Aw sop! Not again! You allow Lawrence to accuse me of killing people, but hold MY reply in moderation? You mortally wound me with such biased silliness. Hmmmph! Was it the part where I called the comment made by Lawrence a bad word?
    Ok! Well if you’re not going to play fair, and post my comments, then I’m going to go finish the christmas tree.
    Sobbing…. boo hoo…. my THIRD deletion…. sniffle sniffle…. I’m soooo hurt. 🙁

  118. Chris says:

    Fearless: “Thimerosal is dangerous even in “teeny” amounts.”
    Citation needed. You have made a testable claim, now it is up to you to provide the verifiable scientific evidence for that claim. Without making any excuses.
    Well, just educate me by posting the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher showing that having less than half of the influenza supply having a small bit of thimerosal is more dangerous than influenza. The point is relative risk.
    Lawrence, ignore Ms. Hericane, her incoherent ranting is not worth bothering with.

  119. Gray Falcon says:

    True, licha seems to have lost all command of the English language again. I’m still baffled by her attitude. Does she think we’re supposed to be able to produce perfect solutions? Does she actually think she’s making reasonable demands? Did it ever occur to her that real tyrants tend to murder their critics, rather than answer them?

  120. novalox says:

    Well, I use the example of licha at my work and where I volunteer to show other people what the typical anti-vaxxer logic usually looks like. To a man, all have said that his/her/its posts are rather unhinged and that her posts convinced them to get the flu shot, because her supposed “arguments” were so out there.
    So she does serve a purpose, just not the one she pretends to think of.
    Also, it’s fun to tease a troll from time to time, just to see how far out there he/she/it can go, and it seems that she’s out there. I’m just waiting for the Godwin/Illuminati/Rothschild reference, just to see if she is as addled as some of the previous trolls.

  121. Gray Falcon says:

    I think she actually bragged about being Godwinned in post #116. Apparently, she has no idea who the gestapo were.

  122. licha hericane says:

    Oh Lax. You junkyard dog. You’re so predictable. I knew you’d follow me here. These comments have been up for seven days. And you only just find them tonight? 😉
    You ALL fail in your attempt to intimidate. What I find fun is trouncing bully shills who think scientific proof comes from inconclusive STUDIES *because* they’re listed on pubmed.
    Good night ababebazungezile babies.

  123. Chris says:

    novalox: “Also, it’s fun to tease a troll from time to time, just to see how far out there he/she/it can go, and it seems that she’s out there.”
    Well, whatever tickles your fancy.
    I just wonder when someone who makes a claim that something is dangerous will actually back it up with real verifiable evidence. It hasn’t happened yet.

  124. Gray Falcon says:

    Remember, licha is someone who is unaware that the Gestapo worked for the Nazis. That takes an incredible dedication to ignorance.

  125. licha hericane says:

    Falcon, your a$$pergers is showing. What an outrageous LIE! The two words that specifically apply to Godwin, are Hitler and nazis. I said neither. I said gestapo. That is NOT criteria for Godwin, as many people use the term when speaking of strong arm police or militia. Pick up any newspaper and you’ll see ‘gestapo tactics’, or ‘gestapo like’, used often to describe a military-like force acquired through terroristic manipulation.
    Now I’m done babysitting you Falcon. Please stop addressing me with your cute, little questions because it makes me feel rude when I’m compelled to ignore you. And you insults are just childish.
    But for the life of me, I can’t figure out how someone who promotes medicines, vaccines for prevention, etc., can turn around and be a hypocrite by dismissing research for cure, treatment, and prevention of autism. You neuro diversies are no different than the anti psychiatry movement years ago, and look how that worked out. When all the science is said and done, you’ll finally realize that autism is a disorder which can be very disabling to some, and that you are NOT the savants that you think you are.
    Now leave me alone Falcon. I try not to hate anyone, but I think I could easily HATE those involved in this anti-cure movement. I’m not kidding and I’m asking you nicely. I feel that strongly about those who are brainwashed enough to promote it.
    You should apologize for your erred comment above, but you should be ASHAMED of yourself for not advocating for cure/prevention for autism, and your hypocrisy while coming here and soliciting vax for prevention of *other* illnesses.

  126. novalox says:

    Yawn, thanks for admitting that you hate people with more intelligence than you, your behavior here has been childish, you are a hypocrite, you are not a savant, you are cyber-stalking the regulars here, and that you owe all of the regulars an apology for your behavior.
    We’ll be waiting for your apology.
    Also, nice Godwin. Guess you lost the argument again and again, not that you’e ever had a chance to win in the first place.
    Please keep posting, your unintentional humor and pratfalls in posting is soooo amusing.

  127. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – oh, I completely understand….of course, the more she posts, the easier it is for people to see just how unhinged the anti-vaccine folks are.
    I’m sure she hasn’t even bothered to follow up on:
    To see exactly how devastating VPDs were & how many lives have been saved by the utilization of vaccines (and not just deaths, but the tens and hundreds of thousands of people who used to be afflicted with all of the various serious side-effects from these diseases – including deafness, blindness, congenital birth defects – and yes, autism, because Rubella is one of the known causes).

  128. Lawrence says:

    @Nova – if I was a conspiracy-minded individual, I might conclude that people like Licha are in the pay of Big Pharma to make the anti-vaccine movement look so unhinged and incoherent to ensure that the general public would never take them seriously….(and of course, the same thing could be said of individuals like Alex Jones, for instance).
    But, I’m not – it really is that these people are that crazy.

  129. licha hericane says:

    Sorry boys! You lose! There’s a huge difference between conspiracy theories and reality. I guess you bozos still don’t believe in global warming yet either. Doh!
    Falcon knew from earlier posts, that I chose not to communicate with him, but he kept provoking. His gestapo LIE was the last straw. I will NOT associate with a person who would let others suffer life-long, devastating illness due to their *own* UNEDUCATED ARROGANCE. If you can’t see the hypocrisy in Falcon promoting vax for illness prevention, while he also votes against CURING, TREATING AND PREVENTING AUTISM [all a.s.d.’s] because his ‘NEURO DIVERSE’ diagnosis makes him feel *special*, than you are to prideful and foolish to be playing god with people’s lives on this site.
    Only an idiot would believe that all individuals who use the word gestapo in casual conversation, commit a godwin faux pas. Look it up and GROW up boys!
    Lax, I’m creating a pre-built form for you. You’ll love it. It’ll save you hours and hours of insult time. You truly look illiterate and presumptuous with your parroted, canned replies. It’s clear that you don’t have an innovative bone in your body, and that you envy my avant-garde intellect. So it will be my gift to you, to put you in a better light, with you ‘junkyard dogging’, when intelligent people like myself wander onto this site.
    Lawrence, I got *nothing* for you. There’s just some people that all the schooling in the world can’t help.
    Who I WILL apologize to, is Chris and other readers who’ve attempted to stay on topic. Once upon a time, yesterday, I made a brief reply on behalf of AJ, and from that ‘on topic’comment’, Falcon and Lawrence took us on a journey of psychopaths, killers, puppies and puppy hearts, AND the gestapo. I hope that Falcon and Lawrence are humble enough to apologize to the readers as well, but we know THAT ain’t gunna’ happen. Sadly, sop is a very SORRY site.
    From my first post, you all assumed me to be anti-vax, and proceeded with hostility, which I did respond to. But you couldn’t be more wrong. I only want them made as safe as possible and with effective screening as Chris has offered, for problematic individuals. I also take the stand, that when it comes to people’s health, nothing should be made mandatory; but left to the individual to educate themselves and act accordingly as to the best course of action for their specific health needs and circumstances. I would also like to see fairness in the legal arena, for those who do suffer severe, adverse reactions to vax. Those are *hardly* ‘anti-vax’ concepts.
    I’m also *sorry* that I can’t be around for today’s CIRCUS EVENTS here on sop. However, have a nice day ababebazungezile babies. 😉

  130. Fearless says:

    Very ironic Lawrence, If I were a conspiracy minded person, I would think the anti-vax groups were paying the regular posters here, because you are so nasty you literally drive people to go anti-vax. I would never ever take the advice of such nasty, negative, rude, people that post here. So thank you for that.

  131. Gray Falcon says:

    Fearless, have you read any of licha’s posts?

  132. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, the Gestapo were the left hand of Hitler. They spied on their own people and struck at anyone who was out of line. Even preachers had to teach the word as approved by the Nazis or face their wrath. Gestapo-like tactics involve torture and killing, not asking questions on a webforum.
    Also, I do not disapprove of the treatment of autism, I disapprove of unproven treatment of autism. Many of the quack “cures” available take time and effort away from real education and intervention. If you consider yourself a Christian, perhaps you should obey the law of God and not make false accusations.

  133. Lawrence says:

    Wow – getting accused of being mean, at the same time after being accused on multiple occasions of being a shill….I guess what is good for the goose isn’t good for the gander…..
    Irony meters all over the Internet explode whenever licha posts anything…..
    And here’s a challenge for her – she claims not to be anti-vax….so let’s see if she can answer two simple questions:
    1) Name the vaccines you are in favor of.
    2) How safe do vaccines need to be? Be specific.
    Okay, ball is now in your court. Let’s see if you are able to post anything but insults.

  134. licha hericane says:

    Oh Lawrence! Still failing! Why don’t you just concede so Chris and others can get back on topic?And remember that as I showed total humility, you and Falcon owe her and readers an apology as well.
    You’re certainly not able to match wits with me. But to again STOOP, I was called a TROLL yesterday, *before* I responded with shill.
    And for your information, as I genuinely profess NOT to be anti-vax, I also profess to Not be pro-vax also. ‘YES VIRGINIA!’ There IS a santa who is NOT discriminatory and dogmatic. Yes Lawrence! It *is* possible for an individual to be so OPEN MINDED.
    Now if you’re through with all your childish competition and ‘fallacy’ games Lawrence, why not let the BALL be in Chris’s, AJ’s, Lady’s, Dingo’s, Osmond’s, et al, COURT.
    No insults Lawrence. Just moving on and so should you.

  135. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, do you really think what you displayed was humility?

  136. Chris says:

    Fearless: “Thimerosal is dangerous even in “teeny” amounts.”
    Citation needed. You have made a testable claim, now it is up to you to provide the verifiable scientific evidence for that claim. Without making any excuses or accusations. It is quite rude to make blatant statements and then refusing to provide the supporting evidence.
    Please post the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher showing that having less than half of the influenza supply (which totals less than half of this country’s population) containing a small bit of thimerosal is more dangerous than influenza. The point is relative risk.

  137. Lawrence says:

    As I thought – no answer….that says volumes, if the inarticulate rants hadn’t already done so.

  138. licha hericane says:

    It says what it SAYS Lawrence. The only one who *doesn’t* get it, is YOU! You make yourself to look like an immature a$$. Why not take Chris’s cue and get back ON TOPIC?

  139. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, if you’re going to act like a petulant five-year-old, I am going to treat you like one. Vaccine safety is the topic. What he asked you was on topic. Your temper tantrum was not.

  140. licha hericane says:

    If I were speaking to you Falcon, I would point out that you blindly *missed* what Lawrence asked for. His little charade was NOT on topic. He was challenging my claim that I’m NOT anti-vax.
    I’d really like to play with you again Falcon, so why didn’t you speak up when we talked about your stance on ANTI-CURE before? You didn’t deny being n.d., and n.d.’s are dead set AGAINST ANY CURE, as they tout that their savant characteristics are being eradicated, when we try to help those unable to *ever* be independent, regardless of whether we can PROVE treatments with science or not.
    Sorry Chris, but this is important, because contrary to what many may believe on here, I don’t DISLIKE any of you. We just often see things a little differently and I do miss sparring with Falcon, ’cause I’m sure he’s a nice kid at heart.
    To bad we can’t speak privately Falcon, so I could truly learn if you ARE ANTI-CURE OR NOT. But until you post otherwise, I’ll assume that you meant that like all the other n.d.’s, that you even OPPOSE the scientific research for cure/treatment/ and PREVENTION.
    I’m sorry Falcon, but that is one notion that I will NEVER agree to; that n.d.’s claim their asd is a gift, while they let others suffer severely and oppose research for those who DO WANT & NEED cures.
    But please DO go back and re read his comment.

  141. Gray Falcon says:

    Licha, asking you about vaccine safety was not on topic on a thread about vaccine safety? By the way, the very first time you accused me of being anti-cure, I set you straight. I told you straight out again in this thread. Have you ever considered, even for a moment, being honest?

  142. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – I’m just glad that my son’s school’s flu vaccine clinic was so successfully – a very good chance we can keep any outbreaks to a minimum…..nice that we have such an educated community around here.

  143. Gray Falcon says:

    Glad to hear that, Lawrence. Of course, with everyone traveling for the holidays, there’s going to be some issues if other communities aren’t as successful.
    Also, doesn’t licha realize we can read her previous comments?

  144. Lawrence says:

    She’s hopeless, I’m afraid. Refuses to answer simple questions & simply tries to bait us by calling us mean and such…..
    They had to expand the clinic three times because of the demand – it was great.

  145. licha hericane says:

    I aspire to live without prevarication. Had you set me straight, I can only guess that I missed it; but will certainly go back and scour the archived comments. If you’re correct, I would certainly apologize, but I don’t have time to go back several articles, and trudge through each post right now. However, I assumed you KNEW that was the reason that I DIDN’T care to communicate with you, so why did it take until NOW for you to verify?
    Regardless, and still trying to keep to the topic of ‘kick the flu out of school’, Lawrence CLEARLY challenged my anti-vax stance. He asserts so, even before he poses his questions. His questions were NOT about vax safety per se. They were a facade to garner ridicule to which he would again claim that I’m NOT ANTI-VAX. Had he genuinely wanted to remain on topic, he would have addressed Fearless, as did Chris, instead of me.
    Sweetie, sometimes ‘ya gotta’ read between the lines. I WILL go back to see if I messed up on your anti-CURE, though.
    But it would be great if we’d stop these petty conversations among ourselves on this thread, when I’m sure the author, Chris and undecided and ambivalent readers, would like to continue with their discussions.
    I’m off to carol at the orphanage. Good night Falcon.

  146. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, do you really think you’re an honest person? You made several false accusations against me, then used them as an excuse not to answer my questions. If you are a Christian, then pray to God for mercy.

  147. Gray Falcon says:

    Some advice, licha. You’re not “reading between the lines”, you’re jumping to conclusions. Don’t make assumptions about other people if you want them to trust you. Reading things into what people say is dishonest, and you, as an adult, should know that. I never claimed at any point to be anti-cure, and you had no right whatsoever to accuse me of being so. “Judge not, lest you be judged.”

  148. licha hericane says:

    Dear Falcon, I very much KNOW I’m an HONEST AND FORGIVING person. I also know that sometimes ‘not so nice things’ are said when one has to be on the offensive after being attacked. I was lambasted the moment I walked on this site and cheered on an underdog who was being bullied.
    I only saw your blurb on THIS post today, that you claim to NOT BE ANTI-CURE. While it’s NOT a false accusation if I truly felt you to be an anti-CURE n.d., [should I have glossed over your *first* denial], I also said that I’d apologize had I missed you declaration in a previous post. Can’t do much more than *that* Falcon. Like you, I’m NOT Jesus or God, but a mere and fallible human.
    However, I am gracious enough to admit that I’m not perfect, and I’m confident enough of who I am, to be able to extend the olive branch after altercations; or as Christians would say, ‘turn the other cheek’; the humbling FORGIVENESS part which so many Christians like to forget.
    So who has the genuine Christian attitude now Falcon? Sorry you feel the way you do and perhaps you should pray that God makes you more tolerant to your fellow man.
    Now good NIGHT Falcon. Go eat a candy cane and sing some christmas songs or something, to get the negativity off your mind.
    ps. I certainly realize that you can read my past posts, just as I can back track yours. I have nothing to hide.

  149. Gray Falcon says:

    Licha, you are dishonest, vindictive, arrogant, and have been cruel to us from the very beginning, making absurd demands of us and libeling us whenever you feel like it. There’s plenty more you can do:
    1) Be more open-minded. Accept that you can, in fact, be wrong.
    2) Be more forgiving. Don’t simply accuse people of crimes without proof.
    3) Be more tolerant. Vaccines don’t have to be perfect, and neither do we.
    4) Be more honest. Don’t deny what you’ve done, and expect us to believe you.
    5) Be more insightful. Just because someone says something you agree with doesn’t make him a good person.
    6) Be more empathetic. Don’t read things into what we say.
    7) Be more humble. We’re being very nice to you just letting you post. Did it ever occur to you we could have banned you by now?
    You are not a good person, licha. Once you acknowledge that, then we can have a conversation.

  150. licha hericane says:

    Falcon, you are just WRONG, and *any* impartial, 3rd party reader, NOT involved in your little playground, can attest to the fact, that I’ve have CERTAINLY been 1-7. In fact, Falcon, I attempt to be as delicate and diplomatic as possible, so as to NOT offend you. But you just mirrored exactly what I’ve said sop should be all along.
    Banning me Falcon? What have I done other than to reply to hate, insults, and at times, issues of sop’s military like demands of proof, and their requirement that the proof only come from one source? Sorry, but that ain’t science. And since sop should be thick skinned enough to accept different pov’s, and have insults returned ‘in kind’, [as you can certainly dish it out], I ask again, why I should be banned? Not to mention that I’ve seen sop crybaby about being censored on other [ I imagine] adversarial sites.
    Again, I’m asking as sensitively as possible. Do you feel your aspergers could be clouding your judgement Falcon? With all due respect, your post above is a real reach. But that’s ok Falcon.
    I can just go back to ignoring you; and I hope that you’ll keep your cyber distance from me as well, until you realize that not everyone who accidentally falls on this site, is what you cyber babies call trolls. When you come to your senses, I’ll forgive you Falcon.
    Until then, good night Falcon and ababebazungezile babies. 😉
    love, licha

  151. Gray Falcon says:

    And this, my friends, is why one should never try to open the eyes of a sociopath.

  152. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – it was a good try, nonetheless.

  153. Chris says:

    Ms. Hericane: “In fact, Falcon, I attempt to be as delicate and diplomatic as possible, so as to NOT offend you.”
    The following is the second comment made on this site by her: still my hero joe, no matter how many socks these shills say you have.
    She starting off by calling us names like “shill” and worse. She is not worth the trouble, and has violated this site’s comment policy each time she posts, by using:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;

    Please ignore her.

  154. licha hericane says:

    Ignore me all you want, but don’t LIE about it… You all started saying I was Joes sockie and sock puppet. Tell the TRUTH Chris, since readers don’t know where to go back to read it themselves.
    Put your glasses on and go back and re read that thread and the REAL chain of events that took place before I answered YOUR sock insult with MY shill insult. As always, please get your FACTS straight Chris.
    “violated comment policy” – Now that really IS a stretch. Your OWN members should have been banned, according to the above. Talk about personal attacks; look 2 comments up to how Falcon personally attacked me. Go up 5 comments to see the unsupported accusations made by Lawrence. And then there’s the epitome of canned parrot, Lax and HIS absurd style of insult.
    I DO hope you’re joking with this Chris, because otherwise it clearly shows the general reading public how much of a JOKE this site really is.

  155. Gray Falcon says:

    Another sign of a sociopath: Anything she does is justified, in her mind. I didn’t attack her, I called her out on what she is. Jesus may have said turn the other cheek if you’ve been slapped, but he didn’t say what to do if I saw someone slapping everyone else around.

  156. licha hericane says:

    “slapping everyone else around”, like YOU do Falcon? That and calling people sociopaths? You’re so Christian, and yet Jesus KNOWS you’re LYING about me being a sociopath, along with all the other negative lies about me that you’ve committed SINFUL acts over, just to make yourself look good.
    Chris is either purposely misrepresenting what REALLY happened, and is therefore LYING as well, or she was just mistaken and has gone back to re read the original posts. And when she finds she’s WRONG, it would be nice for her to be as humble as I am and apologize for her error.
    But chew on THIS my Christian??? Falcon. Jesus said that the LIARS WILL BE JUDGED WITH THE MURDERERS AND THE THIEF. Are you are murderer and a thief Falcon? Because THAT is how you WILL be judged FOR YOUR LIES, if as you profess, you are in fact Christian, which is quite questionable if someone were to ask me.
    I bid you liars a good night. Mwah!!! 😉
    love, licha

  157. Gray Falcon says:

    I’m starting to wonder if we’re the ones licha’s lying to, or if she’s lying to herself.

  158. licha hericane says:

    Keep wondering Falcon. God knows who you REALLY are. Sad for you though. Mwah! Kiss kiss!

  159. novalox says:

    Yawn, again, thanks for admitting that you are not displaying any “christian” behaviors here. You still owe everyone here an apology, so we’re all waiting. Nice try to blame everyone else for your vast deficiencies though, since you keep blaming everyone else for your troubles but yourself.
    At least you serve a purpose, that of the fool, which has been richly exposed to everyone to see.

  160. Gray Falcon says:

    I’m not entirely sure there’s anything than can be said to someone who brags about her humility. Perhaps we should stop worrying about autism and try to find the cure for stupidity.

  161. licha hericane says:

    Aw, now ya see Falcon. that’s the childish $hit that makes readers wanna’ call the hate police on this site. You and other preten$iou$ babies are just a bunch of egotistical LIARS. Anti-cure or not, I’m putting you in my ‘ignore’ mode again. I don’t know if it’s attributed to your autism or not, but your psycho babble about sociopaths and puppy hearts, is certainly wack, and I refuse to waste any more time with you.
    Lax, I’m so excited to get this form completed for ‘ya. I’ve gone back through all your archived posts since your beginning, and I’ve copied your lame insult script and just for kicks, even tallied the number of times you’ve used the exact same rhetoric.
    It starts out with the @ and leaves a space for you to fill in the name, like so -@_____________ –
    Then I type in the ___”yawn,___ Again, thanks for admitting”______________________________- and as you can see, I allow the area for you to supply your personalised parroted pomposity. This is followed by ___”Thank you for admitting that you lie, and that you’ve lied about” ______________. –
    You can then fill in the blank regarding the lie that YOU’RE lying about. I thought I’d add some of your further redundant embellishment, as ____”I take this as a badge of honor from a troll like you and” _________________. – {inject metaphor of choice}
    Here I thought you could choose between your usual robo script such as ___”that you are no match for me”___ or ___”nice try/keep trying” ____or___”typical anti-vax sockie”____. – kind of thing where you could just circle the insult du jour, according to your ‘junkyard dog’ mood.
    Lastly, I was feeling we should add the ___”Thank you and keep posting. I need the laughs”.____
    Whaddaya THINK Lax? Is this a time saver for you or what?
    This behavior certainly adds to the readers perception that this is a paid shill site. But keep posting and thanks for the laughs Lax.
    Good night preten$iou$ babies. 😉

  162. novalox says:

    Again, thanks for admitting that you admire me, since you have to keep copying my posts.
    Also, thanks again for admitting that your insults are lame and that you cannot provide any evidence for your views, and that consequently, you believe that the flu vaccine is safer than the flu itself.

  163. licha hericane says:

    While I would NEVER admit to anything written by you Lax, you’re welcome for the form. No *need* to thank me though. I was happy to make it for you. But you’re welcome. I feel it’ll shave hours off your SHILL time. 😉

  164. novalox says:

    Ah, using the old pharma shill gambit, an admission that you have no argument.
    Please, keep on spewing your nonsense, and I take your silly little imitation as proof that you admire me. Thank you for that admission
    Also, thank you again for admitting that the flu vaccine is safer than the flu itself, since you still cannot provide support for your viewpoints. Your consistent refusal to post any evidence, as well as your constant ad hominems, is your admission that you have nothing.

  165. licha hericane says:

    While I would NEVER admit to anything written by you Lax, I would add that I only use the shill gambit because your mechanical hype fits the bill. I feel that you wouldn’t know an ‘original’ thought if it bit you in the a$$.
    Poor Lax. Maybe you could ask pharma to update your script with something fresh and snappy. Reading 2000 + posts of the same, redundant, pre-programmed crap was just… ugh…such a bore.
    Sorry Lax! You’re the one who has nothing.

  166. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, why are you allowed to reach conclusions, but nobody else? What makes you so special?

  167. […] it relatable. This RN’s article about the flu vaccine leads off with an excellent example of making information relatable: “Last year 169 children died […]

  168. novalox says:

    Yet, you’re the one using the same old ad hominems and being a PRATT. I’m just pointing out your numerous flaws and lies again and again.
    Also, thanks for showing your stupidity to the world, and convincing people by your posts here that the flu vaccine is needed to protect from the flu and its complications.

  169. licha hericane says:

    Okay Lax! I can see how adding the ___”Thanks for showing the world your stupidity!”__ to your form, would be beneficial, since you use it in every other post. Poor Lax! I *could* agree with you on everything, but then we’d BOTH be wrong. 😉
    You drew first ‘hominem’. I only ‘hominemed’ YOUR hominem. And for those of you who grew up on blogs, posts, forums, and cyber communities, if you want to claim winning an argument, you should at least *understand* the terms you’re using to make yourselves *look* educated. Sadly, it appears that debate has taken on a whole new set of unschooled and hateful tones, on many of these internet forums.
    Like your wrongful claim of godwin, you’re *also* incorrect in the premature victory cry, in your use of ad hominem. An insult per se, is NOT ad hominem. I stated in 427 of Congressional Briefing, that I would NOT be arguing science data on YOUR playground. MY insults were personal and in response to pretension$ insults against me and many others.
    You, on the other hand, assumed that I WAS arguing vax and called me a LIAR in an attempt to discredit me for the sake of the argument. Since you believed me to have been in the official, argumentative discussion, your insult becomes ad hominem and YOU brought it Lax. In fact, misunderstandings and illiterate remarks are common practice at pretension$, as you try, but fail to project a superior position.
    I’m not about to let someone publicly and UNJUSTLY call me a LIAR and not defend myself.
    At 390 I claimed to another poster, that I detested pretension$ gestapo tactics, As I pointed out to Falcon recently, the term gestapo WITHOUT any affiliation to hitler or nazis, is used often, and NOT considered a fallacy.
    At 391 you claimed a godwin fallacy, and again, per your modus operandi, called me a LIAR. Poor Lax! Yet *another* fallacy declaration faux pas.
    Pretension$ looks foolish with their ‘no true scotsman, confusing causation and correlation, godwin, ad hominem, fallacy trifecta, etc., in their use of novel, neoteric neologism, WITHOUT having adequate understanding.
    In other words Lax, I think pretension$ needs a new baloney detection kit. Or not! You all could skip the logical fallacy crap and debate like normal speaking, *adult* human beings again.
    Pratt? Sorry Lax, but I speak english. I don’t always recognise pretension$ misuse and abuse of the english language, and OVERUSE of internet slang. So much of this competitive and hateful cyber language just lacks the eloquence of those who grew up utilizing libraries and reading REAL books.
    I’m going to go out on a limb to *assume* that you didn’t mean the correct, british use of prat; in essence, calling me a ‘buttock’. Instead you referred to the cyber slang which means idiot. I’m okay with idiot Lax. Pratt just sounds to effeminate for a man to engage in junkyard dog ridicule.
    And before pretension$ again jumps on my grammar, I admit to enjoying the use of frequent artistic license. I *do* however, understand the difference between artistic and poetic license, versus poor grammar, vocabulary and comprehension skills.
    Now it’s only 3 days ’till christmas, so remember kiddies; no coloring on the walls, gum in Johnny’s hair, ink in Suzie’s braid, and NO LYING. Because anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR, and like Lax, gets a big lump of coal in their stocking. 😉
    Back to wrapping these last minute gifts. And to all a good night.
    p.s. Don’t forget santa’s milk and cookies on christmas eve boys and girls
    p.p.s. Lax, please behave so santa will bring you a new script for christmas 😉
    p.p.p.s. Happy Birthday sweetie. Born today, 39 yrs. ago, and I took you home on christmas eve.
    love, licha/mom

  170. Gray Falcon says:

    Was that supposed to be English?

  171. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – I don’t think so – more like free-form ramblings from a few dozen monkeys at the keyboards…..

  172. licha hericane says:

    Ahhh! The psycho clown act is back. Hellooooooo boys! Neither of you should be asking the other about correct grammar, ’cause as you both so often point out… ‘ya know we can read your PAST posts’.
    But what the heck. it’s christmas. Peace on earth, goodwill to bozos.
    love, licha

  173. novalox says:

    Thank you again for admitting that you have nothing, and that all you are doing is ranting incoherently and pretentiously. Also thank you for admitting again that I am better than you in all respects since all you can do is post nonsensical insults, which means that you admit you cannot post a rational thought.
    I do thank you again for your infantuile insults directed at me, for it is proof that you admit that you cannot hold an argument against me and admit defeat every time you do so.
    Again, please keep posting, your incoherent ranting exposes you as someone not to take seriously.
    @GF, Lawrence
    Well, you do know I just love seeing a troll to incoherent gibberish, and it seems like licha has been reduced to nonsensical blabbering. I suggest we just keep watching to see how much more of the stupid she posts, just to show rational people how deranged the anti-vax mindset can be. At least we know that licha is an anti-semite, looking at her posts
    And, going back on topic, the local schools here have reported a record turnout for children receiving the flu shot. It is a bit bittersweet, however, since the increase came due to a child that nearly died from complications related to the flu. But I think that the word-of-mouth, as well as public health here spreading the word around about the importance of the flu shot, has helped tremendously in that regard.
    I also have shown licha’s posts to others in my workplace and at the hospital that I volunteer at, and her nonsense has prodded coworkers to get the flu vaccine.

  174. licha hericane says:

    Is there a parrot in the room? Or the above could be titled ”parrot-dy’ of Novalax!’ 😉
    As I would NEVER ADMIT to anything written by you Lax, [since you riddle *your* rants with lies and true fallacies -as in FALSE], I WILL thank you for admiring my work so much, that you would copy and show it to your friends and family. It means so much to me, that a junkyard dog like yourself takes such interest in my writing; albeit, that your notion is pure fantasy. Or to phrase it as you would, a LIE! And even though it’s the FIFTH time you’ve posted this remark in the past TWO days, deception or not, I’m *still* so overwhelmed with the sentiment, that I think I feel an actual TEAR on my check.
    But you’re welcome Lax, because I *live* to insult YOU, and will be here for ‘ya as long as possible.
    However, you blatantly show your intolerance toward your fellow man, when you maliciously accuse me of anti-semitism. A real DESPERATE stretch there for ‘ya Lax. Is that the best ‘ya got Lax; resorting to insults of anti-semitism?
    My writing may certainly seem incoherent to those who lack adequate comprehension skills. There’s always grammar classes offered in night school; or these days, perhaps an online english course would benefit these individuals.
    To indulge in your little charade of ‘back on topic’, we must be reading different data, as the media I’ve seen, has reported that vax participation is lower than it’s been in years. This may or may *not* be in correlation to a report in 2012, that a 7 yr. old girl DIED FOUR DAYS AFTER RECEIVING VAX! {This would appear to be a ‘DUCK’ in my humble opinion.}
    Unfortunately, my expenses are NOT funded with grants by pharma and the cdc, as this site’s seems to be. Sadly, I don’t get to play in this playpen all day Lax, like you and your preten$ion friends.
    So I have to run for now. I’m late for playing santa at the vax injured orphanage.
    Have a great day pretentiou$ babies. Mwah!

  175. Chris says:

    “This may or may *not* be in correlation to a report in 2012, that a 7 yr. old girl DIED FOUR DAYS AFTER RECEIVING VAX!”
    Citation needed.

  176. licha hericane says:

    Deja vue. We’ve DONE this dance BEFORE Chris. Please understand what you’re reading. To *repeat* myself to your gestapo like demands for citations, ‘do ‘ya REALLY want me to dig up the numerous articles where it was reported that a ‘7 yr. old girl died four days after receiving vax?’ Chris, please dial your citation obsession down a few notches.

  177. Gray Falcon says:

    Licha, if someone died four days after meeting you, would that alone be proof that you killed him?
    Again, I remind you that the Gestapo were torturers and killers. Do not trivialize their victims.

  178. Lawrence says:

    Lots of people die, every single day….just by shear chance, you’re going to be able to find a number of people who die within “days” of receiving a vaccination of any kind.
    That’s why we ask for actual “proof” and not stories – like how girls who drowned, died in car accidents, etc – still get listed as “death by Gardasil”….

  179. Chris says:

    “‘do ‘ya REALLY want me to dig up the numerous articles where it was reported that a ’7 yr. old girl died four days after receiving vax?”
    Yes. Make sure they include the medical examiner’s report.

  180. novalox says:

    At least you admit that you cannot provideany evidence for your baseless assertions. We can all conclude then that you admit that the flu vaccine is safer than the vaccinations.
    Also, thanks again for your ad hominems against me, honoring me again with your praise.
    Should be fun to hear licha’s pathetic excuses for not providing any proof.

  181. licha hericane says:

    Dear Chris, I’ll make it easy for you to get all the info you could ever want on the story. Google Kaylynne Matten. It will surely provide UNEQUIVOCAL DATA, that she ‘died 4 days after receiving vax’.
    But it *is* a shame Chris, that you were unable to understand the concept of a rhetorical question. For the 50th time, I have no intention of exchanging scientific data with pretension$, given your penchant for irrationally dismissing valid resources at will. And for the 10th time, please UNDERSTAND what you’re reading.
    It is a FACT that Kaylynne DIED FOUR DAYS AFTER RECEIVING VAX. *YOU* are *presuming* that I claimed she died from *vax*. Again, I purposely phrased my statement, so that you could NOT LOGICALLY jump on it to demand your precious ‘citation’. But *illogically*, you have in fact done so again, regardless, even though we had this same discussion 20 posts up.
    My issue with preten$ions WAS and remains to be, the pretentiou$ HATE to posters, from the members on this site.
    Falcon, I’m still not speaking to you. You have some wicked mental issues given your deranged preoccupation with graphic gore, along with imagery of psychopaths and puppy dog hearts. I used ‘gestapo’ just for you since I knew you had some adverse attitude regarding gestapo tactics, along with baal worship and goat herders. I prefer to keep my distance from you, thank you very much.
    Lawrence, flagged for lack of logic.
    Now santa has lots of work to do at the orphanage.
    Good day pretentiou$ babies. Mwah!

  182. novalox says:

    Still no evidence?
    Thanks for admitting that you have none, since you consistently refuse to post actual citations.
    Also, your projection of your issues to others is blatant, so please, stop assigning your mental issues to others.

  183. Lawrence says:

    @licha – you give me a good laugh…, yourself just admitted that all you know is that someone “died four days after receiving a vaccination.”
    By the law of big numbers, I will always be able to find individual who died within days (if not hours or even minutes) after receiving a vaccination – what does not follow, unless there is evidence, is that the vaccination was the cause.
    When the evidence is examined, it is found that the cause of death is almost always something else (you know, like drowning or a car accident – as has been shown with the VAERS entries for Gardasil, for instance).
    You’re nothing but a passive-aggressive know-nothing…and you continue to prove it with every single post.

  184. licha hericane says:

    Silly Lax. I provided plenty of evidence at 182. Research away if you have the time to waste. Chris is AGAIN being ridiculous, as I offered the same only several posts back.
    I, however, am due to play santa this evening. So waste your OWN time at will. It won’t change the fact that ‘A 7 YR. OLD GIRL DIED 4 DAYS AFTER RECEIVING VAX’, as much as preten$ions does NOT want people to acknowledge it.
    Aside from a few minor neurotic traits, I have no *real* mental issues. Falcon’s deranged conceptualization of dead puppies and puppy hearts, on the other hand, says that he may have some valid issues. I would NOT have to keep bringing up this concern, if he’d stop addressing me, since I’ve acknowledged numerous times that I don’t wish to communicate with him. He’s also quite obsessed with religion. I don’t mix science and religion, and if you go back to Congressional Briefing, you’ll see that I advise the same to Joe.
    Lax, instead of researching a fact from 2012, why don’t you take the time to learn the difference between ad hominem and insults.
    Be well pretentiou$ babies and readers.
    love, licha…..Mwah!

  185. novalox says:

    Again, thank you for admitting that you have no proof for you assertions, as evidenced by your continuing failure to provide evidence or a citation.
    Also, thanks for admitting that GF is also smarter than you, as evidenced by your unfounded attack against him.
    Again, why should any rational sane person believe you? Again, your posting are good for cheap humor, and to show others the utter irrationality of your position.

  186. licha hericane says:

    Lawrence you poor blind sheep; all in a tizzy, because YOU like Chris, were unable to comprehend what you read. Read the 3rd paragraph of 182. Yes! You *should* feel foolish, as should Chris.
    You, yourself just ADMITTED that people die all the time within DAYS OF VAX, HOURS OF VAX AND EVEN MINUTES OF VAX. Thank you for that Lawrence. But someone who isn’t a blind sheep, may begin to question the rational statistics of such circumstances. And before ‘common sense’ was thrown out the window, I again offer that, ‘if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, IT’S A DUCK’.
    Nice try Lawrence.

  187. licha hericane says:

    Now Lax, you know I would never ADMIT to anything written by you. You also prove my insults of you to be true, when you tell readers that I haven’t provided proof. However, I clearly see the data provided to Chris [ in her feeble, misguided attempt to demand citations for a proven fact all over the media], in my post at 182.

  188. Lawrence says:

    Wow – so licha, if a person gets a vaccine, walks outside & then is hit by a car…you blame it on the vaccine?
    Better yet, a girl receives a vaccine & then drowns a month later – you blame the vaccine?
    You also might want to clarify which comment you are referencing – because #182 is a comment by me.

  189. novalox says:

    You’re a proven liar, anything you say here has to be assumed to be the opposite unless you back it up with facts. And since you consistently refuse to actually show evidence for your assertions, assertions that fly in the face of actual science and peer-reveiewed research, we can all assume the opposite of what you say is true.
    So, again, thanks for admitting that you have nothing, that Chris and GF are more intelligent than you and that your insults and that all of your unfounded ad hominems directed at me are your way of complementing me.

  190. licha hericane says:

    While I’d NEVER ADMIT to anything written by you Lax, I *WILL* vehemently assert that you are LYING WHEN CALLING ME A ‘PROVEN LIAR!.’
    Remember boy & girls, that anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! 😉

  191. Chris says:

    Kaylynne Matten died of an infection in her heart, myocarditis, and there was no sign of the influenza vaccine causing her death:
    This is why I wanted to reference to the medical examiner’s report.
    I just checked the VAERS database, found her report, which was reported before the toxicology report came out. Now, all we need to do is wait for their date with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. As it stands, that is one child with a heart infection that most likely is not due to the flu vaccine.
    I could not find her case on the US Court’s website, and only case with myocarditis. Since there are no table injuries listed for the influenza vaccine, they will have to prove the vaccine caused the heart infection. They have lots of work to do, since the case I listed there was not sufficient evidence.
    And even if it is finally shown in vaccine court, legal decisions have no bearing on science. That is still not evidence that the influenza vaccine is more dangerous than the disease, which killed 169 kids last year

  192. Gray Falcon says:

    FYI, if we were using gestapo tactics, our comments would be along the lines of: We have your children, licha. If you want them back…

  193. Lawrence says:

    Guys – ignore her – she’s gone down the rabbit hole & isn’t coming back.

  194. Lawrence says:

    Back on the general topic on hand – my wife cut her finger making cookies yesterday (frozen cookie dough is tougher than it looks, I guess) & needed several stitches.
    She also got her Tdap update, so she’s back up to date on her vaccines – a bit of a sore shoulder from the shot, but no worse for wear.

  195. licha hericane says:

    Oh Chris. I never gave the reason for her death. YOU PRESUMED such. What I gave you was a FACT. Kaylynne died 4 days after receiving vax! I refuse to dispute the reason of death on a site with UNREASONABLE members.
    Lawrence, I was going to be nice enough to NOT bring up the error on your/MY comment at 182. But while you *were* wrong about that, you’re right about this. Although I WILL be back, I’m leaving for my rabbit hole now. It’s very boring to have to spoon feed sheep and I’m late for a date with santa.
    Toodles pretensions_. 😉

  196. Gray Falcon says:

    So in other words, her death could have had nothing to do with the vaccine.

  197. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – ignore her. She’s not worth the trouble.

  198. licha hericane says:

    If I were speaking to you Falcon, I’d say…. ‘uh duh!’ What took you and CHRIS so long?

  199. Chris says:

    Licha; “I never gave the reason for her death.”
    Then don’t bring it up. That family’s tragedy is not evidence of harm from any of the influenza vaccines. In no way does it show the vaccine is worse than the disease that killed 169 kids last year.

  200. licha hericane says:

    I’ll bring up what I darn well please Chris. If Lax can state this,

    novalox :
    came due to a child that nearly died from complications related to the flu.

    then I have every right to respond with what I posted, which was the headlines in all the local news. Again, ‘7 yr. old girl DIES 4 DAYS AFTER RECEIVING VAX’. You can recite ‘correlation is NOT causation’ ’till the cows come home. When I see correlation, correlation, correlation, I’m not ‘blind sheeple’ enough to disregard connecting the dots.
    It’s not my fault that you were presumptuous enough to reply to me before fully understanding my comment.
    Lax, the ‘citation’ police demands that you link all research data for your comment above. Who *was* this child, *when* did they ‘nearly’ die, and provide *PROOF* that it was due to complications of the flu. CITATIONS NEEDED! Chris, you are being ridiculous.
    Prove your claim Chris, that the tragedy was not from the harm of vax, exacerbating pre -existing conditions. UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE IT! Again, you can’t.
    ‘Ya wanna’ talk exploitation? How about ending each comment in this section with, ‘disease that killed 169 kids last year’, to shamelessly promote your pov; with nary a mention of the thousands that are injured or killed by vax complications each year.
    Now good night Chris. Perhaps you’ll be more coherent in the morning.

  201. Chris says:

    “I’ll bring up what I darn well please Chris. ”
    Then I will continue to remind you that one tragedy in no way shows the vaccine causes more harm than the disease, which killed 169 children last year. Unlike your idle speculation, each of those cases is tested for the virus:

    An influenza-associated death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from an illness that is clinically compatible with influenza that is confirmed by an appropriate laboratory test.

  202. licha hericane says:

    Remind all you want. I… NEVER… SAID… VAX…HARMS…MORE…THAN…DISEASE!
    Sadly Chris, your cognition appears to be impaired.
    Good evening Chris.

  203. Chris says:

    Then why do you post here? Why do you bring up a family’s tragedy? Why do you post this demand: “Prove your claim Chris, that the tragedy was not from the harm of vax,”? Why do you say “When I see correlation, correlation, correlation, I’m not ‘blind sheeple’ enough to disregard connecting the dots.”?
    Your words seem to indicate the vaccine caused injury. I am merely asking for the evidence that it actually causes that injury, and pointing out that one family’s tragedy in no way shows the vaccine is dangerous.

  204. Gray Falcon says:

    As far as I can tell, licha wants medicine to be held to impossible standards. That it be 100% effective and have 0% chance of side effects. This isn’t me twisting her words, this is based on her actual statements. Licha spends her time trying to spin our words in the worst way possible, making up positions for us if she feels it will help her. On the other hand, if one looks at licha’s words in the most charitable manner possible, she still looks monstrous.

  205. licha hericane says:

    I brought up Kaylynne because Lax commented on a child who ‘nearly’ died of the flu. I then offered that a ‘7 yr. old girl died 4 days after being vaxed’.
    My words seem to indicate that vax can cause injury, because it’s true, and I have *said* those words. Vax may cause injury or death in susceptible individuals.
    I’ve also states numerous times why I post here.
    Now good night Chris.

  206. novalox says:

    Again, why don’t you answer the questions posed of you, and why don’t you post any actual proof of your assertions?
    Your continuing evasion of the questions, as well as your continued use of ad hominem instead of actual citations says that you cannot answer the questions honestly.
    And I bet the family that had the child almost die from the flu would think you are a monster.
    Again, licha is a good example for me to point to others to see the behavior of the anti-vax position. Of course, licha twists words and provides vacous explanations, e.g her very poor example of a child who had died of heart complications, which she then twisted to make a poor assertion that she had died from the flu vaccine.
    Anyone with a rational mind could see how stupid licha was to make such a poor comparison. But then again, people get to see how much mental gymnastics the typical anti-vaxxer has to do to make the world fit their viewpoint, no matter how irrational it is.

  207. licha hericane says:

    Clap … clap…. clap….That’s a little better Lax, however Santa says you still have a long way to go.
    Assertions Novalax? Could you possibly mean my *humble opinion* of ‘walks like a duck’? Or posting the FACT that a ‘7 yr. old girl DIED 4 days after receiving vax’? I’m sure HER parents would find the likes of *you* a monster as well.
    It’s ridiculous to answer the questions of one who can’t discern a rhetorical question, and demands ‘citations’ for established fact, because they’re confused by what they read. Add to this, that they consider pubmed *studies* to be unequivocal proof.
    But the same issues of error can be attributed to Falcon, Lawrence, and of course yourself, who can’t tell the difference between ad hominem and insult.
    No matter! After playing santa to these underprivileged children last night, NONE of you will ruin my joyous mood today.
    Have a GREAT day yourselves preten$ions. Buh bye!
    love, licha

  208. Gray Falcon says:

    licha, the reason we insist on PubMed studies is because we have standards of evidence. The Gestapo would arrest people based on rumors and hearsay. Our demands for evidence is the opposite of their tactics.

  209. novalox says:

    Again, your evasiveness and refusal to actually post proof for your assertions says that you know that your position is without merit.

  210. Lawrence says:

    Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to everyone – may rational thinking and Science continue to prevail in the coming year….

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