Home > Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research, Vaccine Myths > Why Some Parents Are Refusing HPV Vaccine For Their Children

Why Some Parents Are Refusing HPV Vaccine For Their Children

Some of the data contained in this post has been updated.  For a more recent review of the prevalence of HPV infection and more current data on the safety and efficacy of the HPV vaccine, click here to read “Questioning Whether to Get Your Child The HPV Vaccine?  Read this“, published in January, 2016.  

This post is not the result of an official survey. Rather, it’s a collection of the most common explanations I’ve heard parents make when refusing HPV vaccine for their children, followed by points to consider.

REASON #1: My child is not/ will not/ should not be having sexual relations. So why would they need an HPV vaccine?

As a mother to five daughters I get it. Every parent wants to believe that their son or daughter will remain abstinent until marriage. And some may. But the reality is that some children, even as young as 12 and 13, are already involved in sexual relations and this reality is what has influenced the age at which the HPV vaccine is recommended.  Here is what the studies suggest:

The HPV vaccine is most effective when the complete three shot series is given long before any sexual activity begins, which is one reason the vaccine is recommended for boys and girls between the ages of 11 and 12. Additionally, the vaccine illicits a greater immune response and produces higher antibody to fight infection when given at this age, compared to receiving the vaccine at a later age.

Regardless of the when a child becomes sexually active, the HPV vaccine is important because the prevalence of HPV infection is staggering:

Some parents may be surprised to learn that sexual intercourse is not necessary for infection.  Oral-genital and hand-genital transmission of some genital HPV types is possible and has been reported.  Studies show that HPV was detected in 46% of females prior to first vaginal sex.  Based on this information, it’s possible that a person can become infected during their first sexual encounter. Even if someone remains abstinent until marriage, there’s no guarantee that the person they are marrying isn’t already infected.

Yet, some parents remain concerned that vaccinating a child for a sexually transmitted disease is like giving them permission to have sex. However, research indicates that HPV vaccination has had no notable difference in the markers of sexual activity, to include pregnancies, counseling on contraceptives, and testing and diagnosis of sexually transmitted infections. In other words, the vaccine does not appear to be changing sexual behaviors, only protecting those when they eventually engage in them.

The way I see it, most children by the age of 11 can understand that the HPV vaccine can protect them from various types of cancers, but not from pregnancy and STDs. It’s a simple matter of communication by which the parents can explain that the vaccine doesn’t equate to a free pass to have sex.  If a child chooses to refrain from sexual relations, I would venture to guess that it has more to do with their upbringing and strong moral character, than whether or not their parents choose to protect them with the HPV vaccine.

REASON #2: Won’t regular PAP smears detect any abnormalities and identify cervical cancer without the need for the vaccine?

Let’s be clear. Getting the HPV vaccine is not a substitute for regular PAP smears. However, even regular PAPs depend on many variables to detect cancer, to include women being diligent about getting them, the test accurately detecting an abnormality, and the fact that an abnormal PAP (if accurate) means that an infection has already occurred. At that point, we’re not able to prevent infection but must then rely on medical science to treat it. Of course, treatment procedures can be frightening, painful, and even result in complications, hysterectomies and infertility. And since people who are infected with HPV rarely exhibit any symptoms, they could spend years unknowingly exposing others to the virus.

IncidenceOfCancerAttributedToHPVPicture1But PAP smears are only helping to identify cervical cancer at this point in time. In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.   Since there is no test to check one’s overall HPV status, and no standard screening to detect HPV in the mouth or throat, getting an HPV vaccine is a critical way to reduce the number of people who suffer and die from these types of cancer, and offering a means to prevent illness rather than wait for the need for treatment.

REASON #3: HPV has been known to clear up on its own, so why get vaccinated?

It’s true that many people will be infected with HPV for years and never know it. Some may even develop an HPV infection that clears up on its own in about two years. But how many people will they have shared their HPV infection with along the way? And what will their outcomes be? There is no way to determine which cases will clear up and which will lead to cancer, so our best defense is to simply reduce the spread of the infection with vaccination.

REASON #4: The vaccine only offers protection from some of the strains of HPV. Why bother if it’s doesn’t protect from all HPV strains?

While this is true, the important thing to know is that both the quadrivalent and bivalent HPV vaccines cover the most popular HPV strains (16 and 18).  These two strains are responsible for about 70% of cervical cancers and 90% of genital warts.

REASON #5: I’m not confident in the safety of the vaccine. Aren’t there girls who’ve fainted or even died after getting vaccinated?

It’s understandable that parents are hesitant. After all, inaccurate information about the safety of the HPV vaccine is continuously circulating on the internet. However, to be an informed and educated parent, one must learn that “research” involves more than just believing everything you read on the internet. It involves checking sources and looking at the scientific evidence.

The HPV vaccine is not new. From June 2006 through March 2013, approximately 57 million doses of HPV vaccine have been administered. In that time, there has been an enormous amount of research that demonstrates that the HPV vaccine is not only well-tested, but extremely safe.

The first step in evaluating the safety of any vaccine is to understand the process of vaccine licensing and follow-on safety surveillance.  The CDC infographic entitled “The Journey of Your Child’s Vaccine” helps explain this process in detail.  After a vaccine is licensed, the CDC and FDA use three primary systems to monitor and evaluate the safety of vaccines. The three systems are:

  1. The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) which allows people to self-report adverse health events following vaccination to help detect possible new, unexpected, or increased trends in reported adverse events.
  2.  Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), which uses de-identified health records to monitor and evaluate adverse events following vaccination.
  3. The Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) Project which conducts research to understand how adverse events might be caused by vaccines.

In a study published August 2009 in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), VAERS data from June 2006 through December 2008 was thoroughly analyzed.  At the time, more than 23 million doses of HPV vaccine had been administered with 12,424 reports of adverse events. Of those reports, 94% of them were “not serious” and 6% were described as “serious”, with the most frequently reported symptoms being headache, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, dizziness, syncope, and generalized weakness.  This study also investigated 32 reports of death.  However, medical investigation into these cases revealed that there was no common pattern that might suggest these deaths were caused by the vaccine. In cases where there was an autopsy, death certificate, or medical records, the cause of death could be explained by factors other than the vaccine. Some causes of death determined to date include diabetes, viral illness, illicit drug use, and heart failure.   While the deaths may have occurred after vaccination, it is important to understand that they were not a result of vaccination – a point that vaccine critics fail to clarify in their discussions about HPV vaccine safety.  In conclusion, the study found that the safety of the HPV vaccine was consistent with that of other vaccines recommended for this age group.

An additional report conducted in 2011 of the VSD studied the occurrence of specific adverse events following more than 600,000 doses of HPV vaccination. None of the adverse events found were any more common after HPV vaccination than among the comparison groups.

Since there’s concern that many U.S. children are not getting the HPV vaccine as recommended, it’s important to highlight a recent study that analyzed five years of data from the Australian HPV vaccination program, where over 70% of girls have been vaccinated as recommended.  The study revealed a sharp decline in the number of young women diagnosed with genital warts.  By 2011, no genital warts were diagnosed in women under 21 who had been vaccinated, and a significant decline in genital wart diagnoses also occurred in 21-30 year old women, a trend not observed in older women.  But what was even more impressive was that less than 1% of the female population under 21 years of age had genital warts in 2011 (to include those vaccinated and unvaccinated).  This is compared to 10.5% of women in 2006 before the vaccination program started. This data, combined with a 44% reduction in the diagnosis of genital warts among young heterosexual men (who were not among those recommended to be vaccinated) suggests that HPV infections are declining as a direct result of vaccination and the profound impact of herd immunity.

The significance of these studies, as well as more than 30 other PubMed studies linked at the end of this post, should help illustrate how safe and well researched the HPV vaccine has been.  If only U.S. parents could recognize the value of this vaccine and increase it’s uptake, than maybe one day we may expect a similarly impressive reduction in HPV infections for the youth of our nation. Perhaps by reviewing the safety data, along with this comprehensive risk/benefit analysis displayed within the Information is Beautiful infographic below, parents will begin to recognize the importance of the HPV vaccine.  

To parents who are still hesitant in regards to the HPV vaccine, I ask you this…

If your doctor recommended a vaccine that could prevent breast cancer in your daughter or prostate cancer for your son, would you refuse? By getting your child the complete three dose series of HPV vaccine at a young age, without focusing on the questions as to when they may become sexually active, you can ensure that you help reduce your child’s risk of cancer.  Who wouldn’t want to do that?

hpv_2

Links to various PubMed articles regarding HPV vaccination:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23027469
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2322430
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23199956
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22327492
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22265115
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23484396
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22155768
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22048171
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22029979
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018560
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21865087
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21629249
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21550027
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21288094
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266842
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21226933
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21198715
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20812850
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20606533
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20574412
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20375805
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19962185
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19823051
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19684472
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19493565
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463363
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18455092
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18162241
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000825
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17602732
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16631880
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15541448
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2064309
  1. August 20, 2013 at 10:42 am

    This is a great blog; thank you for the important information that you back up with statistics. Several years ago, I attended an emergency grammar school meeting whereby parents were informed of the prevalent sexual encounters occurring under the stairways. My son confirmed the alarming trend. If you think your child is different, think again – peer pressure continues to supersede parental advice.

    Like

  2. Lauren @ the VEC
    August 20, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    If you have questions about HPV or the HPV vaccine, chances are someone else has asked it too! Check out http://www.prevent-hpv.org, administered by the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (VEC), to find answers to questions others have asked. The page also includes videos and links to the VEC’s downloadable Q&A sheets.

    Like

  3. dingo199
    August 20, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Fantastic demolition of most of the common antivaccine tropes that the naysayers constantly trot out.

    Like

  4. August 21, 2013 at 10:01 am

    I am bookmarking this excellent blog post. Thank you for providing all the sources and links. Incredibly helpful when trying to explain the safety and efficiency behind this important vaccine!

    Like

  5. dingo199
    August 21, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Won’t regular PAP smears detect any abnormalities and identify cervical cancer without the need for the vaccine?

    Important point:
    12 thousand women still get cervical cancer and 4000 of them still die, despite there being a perfectly good program to provide women with cervical PAP smears.

    Like

  6. Kyjay
    August 21, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    Hmmm, vaccine vs placebo isn’t a fair trial when the placebo contains the same adjuvants.

    Like

  7. Tracey Seth
    August 21, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    One fact that you fail to mention is the cost. The Gardasil series costs about $600 US.

    I have 6 daughters (4 who are raised and 2 who are still at home…one grown son thrown in there too) who also need (ed) dental work, eye care, regular healthcare, participate(d) in sports and other school activities, play(ed) instruments we rent(ed), school lunches, school supplies. They also need (ed) a roof over their head, food in their mouths, hot water to shower in, internet access and the occasional cash advance for movies out with their friends. I provide(d) all that.

    I do not provide designer clothes, new cars or auto insurance, iPods, beds where they can have sex in my house or a place for them to shack up with their boyfriends. I have learned a certain amount of self-control and expect they are able to do the same.

    If they want (ed) the vaccine, they are free to get it for themselves, after they get a job to pay for it for themselves, along with their birth control if they feel they need it. I’m not paying for that either and neither should anyone else but themselves. ( I didn’t teach them to trust their partner to kick in for it either. They are the ones who stand to get pregnant or risk their health….they need to trust themselves only.) I’ve taught them that message and taught them to be responsible for themselves in regard to their bodies and their obligations that extend beyond themselves. They are free to choose as they wish and I trust they will make good choices and decisions for themselves when they come of age….which is sure as hell not at 12 or 13 years old ( really, WHERE are those parents? No kid of mine EVER had the opportunity at 12 or 13….ever.)

    Lastly, a vaccine that has been around since 2006 has NOT stood the test of time in terms of long term effects. There is no damn way I am letting a pharmaceutical company tell me that THEIR studies show that it is “safe” when they stand to make $600 off of me 6 times over. Ever heard of the fox and the chicken house? They think I am stupid and have all of you little minions telling me how foolish I am for refusing a “life saving vaccination” because of my “ignorance” and “fear.” Seriously, bite my ass.

    You raise your kid, I’ll raise mine and we’ll leave it at that.

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  8. Tracey Seth
    August 21, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    And who in the hell keeps their kid in a school where the kids are having sex in the hallways???? For the love of God, MOVE or HOME SCHOOL and stop acting like you are freaking helpless!!!!

    Like

  9. August 22, 2013 at 1:46 am

    @Tracey – whatever you say….I’m sure your children would never do anything against your wishes, right?

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  10. novalox
    August 22, 2013 at 2:31 am

    @tracey

    And of course, you’ve heard the expression “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?”

    Compare the cost of the vaccination (~$600) with the cost of treating cervical cancer (can be at least $100,000+) and you can see in terms of economics why the vaccine would make sense.

    Of course, that also assume that your children will marry someone who is as supposedly chaste and did not have any premarital sexual encounters as well.

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  11. novalox
    August 22, 2013 at 2:32 am

    @tracey

    Also, looking at your post, it looks like you didn’t even really read the blog post at all.

    Like

  12. Erin
    August 22, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    I agree with Tracy. Novalox, most women who get cervical cancer do so decades after they contracted the virus. A very small percentage of American women get it now, so it would be $3,600 for a condition they are very unlikely to ever get. Regular Pap tests since 1950 have slashed the death rate.

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  13. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Erin, what costs $3600?

    And Pap tests have not slashed the number of cervical cancers. They just provide early detection of a cancer that can be prevented. A cancer that is very expensive to treat.

    The very easy to read chart above says the lifetime risk for cervical cancer in the USA is 1 in 147. That is not a small number, especially if you figure it is half the population.

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  14. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Ah, I see Erin has misread something. From HPV Vaccine Information For Young Women – Fact Sheet:

    As of July 2012, the retail price of either vaccine is about $130 per dose ($390 for full series).

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  15. Lawrence
    August 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    @erin – how is “detecting” cancer better than preventing Cancer in the first place?

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  16. Mr. Smith
    August 22, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    Lawrence, the vaccine is not a way to prevent it. There are better ways to help prevent it.

    Like

  17. Mr. Smith
    August 22, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    So $2340.00 then Chris.

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  18. novalox
    August 22, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    Mr. Smith :
    Lawrence, the vaccine is not a way to prevent it. There are better ways to help prevent it.

    Then I’m sure you’ll be able to provide some evidence for your statement.

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  19. August 22, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    @Mr Smith – that doesn’t even make sense.

    1) The HPV Virus has been definitively linked to the future development of Cervical Cancer
    2) The HPV Vaccine prevents HPV infection.
    3) Thus the Cancer is prevented

    Logic isn’t one of your strong suits, is it?

    Like

  20. Mr. Smith
    August 22, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    So Lawrence, if you get the vaccine, you won’t get the cancer huh? Yeah – right.

    Like

  21. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    Mr. Smith, the vaccine cuts the chance of getting the cancer by a quarter. See the easy to read graphic at the end of the article. Now tell me which is better:

    1 in 147

    or

    1 in 400

    Also, please explain where you got the value in this comment: “So $2340.00 then Chris.”

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  22. dingo199
    August 22, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    To be fair, HPV vaccine will not prevent all HPV-related cancers (just around 70% or so).

    That means 70% of the 26,000 cases of HPV-linked cancer the USA sees each year, saving the equivalent of over 18 thousand lives each year.

    That would be over 18,000 more lives saved than the number of lives lost from receiving the vaccine (nil). I can see why these misogynistic trolls who loathe women are so anti-vaccine when one compares the numbers.

    http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm

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  23. novalox
    August 22, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    @mr. smith

    We’re still waiting for your evidence.

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  24. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    It sounds like the same logic I have encountered on the MMR vaccine. Someone once argued that girls should not be vaccinated for mumps because it doesn’t cause them sterility. But mumps can cause deafness, so why should girls and not boys be vulnerable to that? Also mumps can cause oophoritis, which can cause early menopause.

    The attitude seems to be that it is not important because they are “just” women, and their health is unimportant.

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  25. Erin
    August 22, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    It would have been $3,600 for Tracey if she had done it for six daughters. That amount would pay for a lot of Pap tests, especially if you get them done at somewhere like Planned Parenthood. The Pap test usually detects abnormal PREcancerous lesions. They can be excised early before they become cancer, usually at the doctor’s office. I had a friend’s daughter who had that done, the lesion was burned off, it didn’t cost much. I’ve read about a lot of side effects you risk if you get the vaccine series.

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  26. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Thank you, Erin for clearing that up.

    So 390 * 6 = $2340. Which really explains Mr. Smith’s answer.

    I am sorry that Tracey has no health insurance, especially with seven kids. That must have very difficult, especially if she was quoted a price that was higher than what I paid for my son, and what it says on the CDC site. The link I did provide did also say:

    The Vaccines for Children (VFC) program helps families of eligible children who might not otherwise have access to vaccines. The program provides vaccines at no cost to doctors who serve eligible children. Children younger than 19 years of age are eligible for VFC vaccines if they are Medicaid-eligible, American Indian, or Alaska Native or have no health insurance. “Underinsured” children who have health insurance that does not cover vaccination can receive VFC vaccines through Federally Qualified Health Centers or Rural Health Centers. Parents of uninsured or underinsured children who receive vaccines at no cost through the VFC Program should check with their healthcare providers about possible administration fees that might apply. These fees help providers cover the costs that result from important services like storing the vaccines and paying staff members to give vaccines to patients. However, VFC vaccines cannot be denied to an eligible child if a family can’t afford the fee.

    I hope when her daughters are old enough to get regular Pap smears that they have health insurance.

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  27. August 22, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    Given that the HPV Vaccine has been found to be extremely safe, why would you take the risk of lesions or Cancer by not getting it?

    Like

  28. Kyjay
    August 22, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    A friends daughter collapsed and had to be resuscitated after this vaccine. Luckily she was in the doctors surgery when she received the shot and not at school like her peers or she might not have survived. It’s not safe for everyone and I get so upset when people deny the possibility of adverse reactions. It’s a pharmaceutical like any other and like any other, can and does have adverse side affects ( including death) for some people.

    Like

  29. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    Well, Kyjay, I am sure you will give us the update on when that case report is published.

    By the way, go to the graphic at the end of the article and read the bit below the words “Its the needle, people!”

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  30. Kyjay
    August 22, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    Chris, she didn’t faint, she nearly died. Please don’t be so patronizing. Her sister received the same shot and was fine. Like I said, everybody is different and will react differently. It’s not safe for everyone.

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  31. Lawrence
    August 22, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    That is biologically impossible…..

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  32. August 22, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    @Kyjay – to elaborate, unless we are talking about an immediate allergic reaction to something like latex, what you are describing is not biologically possible relating to the actual vaccine itself.

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  33. kyjay
    August 22, 2013 at 11:43 pm

    “Anaphylaxis following routine vaccination is very rare, but can be fatal.6 All immunisation service providers must be able to recognise all the symptoms and signs of anaphylaxis and distinguish between anaphylaxis, convulsions and fainting. The features listed in Table 2.3.1 may be useful in differentiating between fainting (vasovagal episode) and anaphylaxis.”
    http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/content/handbook10-2-3

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  34. August 23, 2013 at 12:01 am

    @kyjay – thank you for proving my point. That is certainly not specific to any particular vaccine & is both rare and of course, readily apparent and treatable when it does occur.

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  35. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 12:29 am

    So if they had been unable to resuscitate the girl and she had died as a direct result of having the Gardisil vaccine, you are saying it is not actually the fault of the Gardisil vaccine, but it could have been any vaccine that caused her reaction. So in other words any vaccine could cause the death of anyone at anytime. Thankyou for proving my point about the dangerous nature of vaccines. Russian Roulette.

    It wouldn’t have been so ‘readily treatable’ had this happened at the highschool because by the time an ambulance could have arrived it would have been too late.

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  36. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 12:30 am

    kyjay:

    Chris, she didn’t faint, she nearly died.

    Which is why I am asking for the PubMed indexed case report when it comes out. That seems like a severe event that should be publicized. But, it must be compared to the relative risk of the disease versus the vaccine.

    How many have had the disease versus those who have had that reaction. And like Lawrence said, was it some other element like latex. So, just tell alert us to the PubMed indexed case study for that reaction. It seems very severe, but it still needs to be compared to the numbers of vaccines given and the risk of actual infection.

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  37. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 1:06 am

    Also, where do they give vaccines in school? That does not happen in the USA. Kyjay you are going to have to give the nationality and the actual vaccine to complete your anecdote.

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  38. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 1:26 am

    I’m in Australia Chris. Gardisil is routinely administered to girls in the first year of highschool here.
    If it was your child who reacted badly to a vaccine, I’m sure you wouldn’t be saying the benefits outweigh the risks..

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  39. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 1:55 am

    Okay, then alert us to the PubMed indexed case report. Plus the epidemiology data that indicates either of those two vaccines cause more harm than the disease.

    I have a kid who was injured by an actual disease. At the present time the data shows there is more injury from diseases than the vaccine. If you have actual data to show that the HPV vaccine causes more injury than the disease, please provide it.

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  40. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 2:16 am

    I was stating a fact in regards to the young girl I mentioned – I don’t really think I need to prove anything. I just don’t understand why people won’t acknowledge that there are adverse reactions in some cases?! Vaccines aren’t magic or infallible.

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  41. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 2:28 am

    You posted an anecdote. If you had actually looked at the graphic posted at the end of the article you will have notices that adverse reactions are tabulated.

    Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge the relative risks of the vaccine versus the disease? There have been millions of doses of the vaccine given to prevent tens of thousands of cases of cancer in just one country. And that has to stop because you posted an unverified story about one person?

    Just give us the data that your story is much more common than the thousands of cases of cervical cancer per year. Is that so difficult?

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  42. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 2:49 am

    Where did I say it has to stop? and is there a rule somewhere that says I’m not allowed to post an anecdote? This is a blog for goodness sake. Some people will react to vaccines and in all the research I’ve done and from reactions that I’ve heard of in my small community alone, it is my own personal opinion that this particular vaccine has not been tested fairly or for long enough. I guess time will tell

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  43. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 2:56 am

    Okay, you posted an anecdote. Thank you for acknowledging that it does not change any of the epidemiological data. And seriously your personal opinion has nothing to do with the scientific data.

    Now, again, how does one story affect the huge numbers of cervical cancer, plus others, that occur on this planet?

    And, i am serious about this, please tell us when the PubMed indexed case report is posted. That is an interesting reaction and we would all be interested in reading about it. I hope you have apprised all of the medical personnel that they have something worth submitting to a journal.

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  44. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 6:04 am

    The following is an excerpt from an interview with Dianne Harper – one of the lead researchers in the development of the hpv vaccine

    “Can you point out specific “misstatements” that Merck has promulgated about the Gardasil vaccine?

    “Less misstatements, than incomplete statements. For instance, the cumulative incidence of HPV infections for women in the U.S. through the age of 50 years old is 80%. That statement is true. That statement infers that nearly every one is infected with HPV at least one point in their life.

    What is left out is that 95% of all HPV infections are cleared spontaneously by the body’s immune system. The remaining 5% progress to cancer precursors. Cancer precursors, specifically CIN 3, progresses to invasive cancer in the following proportions: 20% of women with CIN 3 progress to invasive cervical cancer in five years; 40% progress to cervical cancer in thirty years. There is ample time to detect and treat the early precancers and early stage cancers for 100% cure.”

    In the interview she also talks about risks of vaccine vs risk of disease. I found it very interesting and worth the read.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-g-yerman/an-interview-with-dr-dian_b_405472.html

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  45. kyjay
  46. August 23, 2013 at 7:24 am

    @Kyjay – here is a good counterpoint to Dr. Harper (who was not one of the “lead researchers” in the development of Gardisil):

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/16/yet-another-antivaccine-meme-rises-from-the-grave-again-no-diane-harper-doesnt-hate-gardasil/

    Also, adverse reactions to do occur – this is even mentioned and tabulated in the post above. No one here is denying that they happen, but they are very rare (and the serious ones are even rarer) – but the anti-vaccine folks (like yourself) blow them completely out of proportion to the overall safety profile of vaccines or end up using bad data to try to support their position that vaccines are “dangerous.”

    There are two VAERS reports in particular that attribute the administration of Gardisil to death – one of them involves a car accident (where the victim wasn’t even driving) and the other involves a girl who “fell down a well.” Not very scientific…..not to mention lousy evidence to try to use against the vaccine.

    Like

  47. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 8:03 am

    @Lawrence. The Japanese Government doesn’t think so…
    I got my first two children vaccinated without question. I wasn’t “pro-vaccine” back then – I didn’t even give it a second thought because that’s just what you do – like everyone else. I only started to question things when my kids had reactions. What I am now, is pro- choice and pro- full disclosure.
    If no one here is denying adverse reactions happen, why is it that I wasn’t able to make my comment about my friends daughter without being basically accused of lying

    Like

  48. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 8:59 am

    As per the above charts it says that VAERS “maybe only captures 10% of what happens” and that “we need studies” (preferably unbiased studies)

    Like

  49. Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2013 at 9:05 am

    Kyjay- Have you considered reading other people’s comments? It will save you a lot of potential humiliation.

    Like

  50. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    kyjay, again tell us the relative risks, and use actual verifiable scientific documentation.

    Also, Japan is not the best example. Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story explains how they stopped pertussis vaccination for those under two in the 1970, but over forty babies died from pertussis. Then Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan says:

    In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    I would suggest that you stop going to the AVN for your arguments, but actually learn to look up the information yourself. Learn to use PubMed and how to read a scientific paper. I would suggest reading Lies, Damned Lies, and Science: How to Sort Through the Noise Around Global Warming, the Latest Health Claims, and Other Scientific Controversies by Sherry Seethaler and Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine by R. Barker Bausell.

    Like

  51. Erin
    August 23, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Thank you, Kyjay, you are right, I go to church with a woman whose niece, Gabi Schrag, had a bad reaction to the HPV vaccine. She said it caused lupus and something else, and she was going to die.

    Like

  52. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Again, do send us the PubMed identification number of the case report. And please do try to get us the relative risk from a verifiable source.

    Like

  53. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Erin, you can also provide us her case for vaccine injury here: http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/search_vaccine

    Thanks.

    Like

  54. Lawrence
    August 23, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @Erin – how about actual, real scientific evidence?

    Like

  55. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Hey, I found it! It is http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/gabrielle-swank-minor-and-through-her-natural-mother-and-next-friend-shannon-schrag-v-secretary-hea-0

    And it says “dismissing the petition for insufficient proof of causation; denial without hearing.”

    The US Vaccine Court does not need much evidence, just 50% plus a feather. So do come up with that case report from the doctors that treated her.

    Like

  56. Lawrence
    August 23, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    @Chris – wow, someone who actually filed a claim. Actually, that’s the best anyone has done recently (or ever)…..guess all of that “medical evidence” wasn’t very convincing…..

    Like

  57. kyjay
    August 23, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    I could pull out the medical jargon and put up charts for you to read too, but unless it’s funded by a drug company, you’re not going to give it any credibility. When my kids reacted to their shots ( pre internet) I had no idea there was a reporting system and the doctors and clinic nurses certainly wouldn’t have reported it because they fobbed off my concerns by saying it was just a coincidence, twice. There sure are a lot of “coincidences” out there.

    Like

  58. August 23, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    @kyjay – so, did you actually file a report (after you found out there was a reporting system)? How about any evidence whatsoever that isn’t by quacks, frauds or shisters?

    Like

  59. August 23, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    @kyjay – how about anything?

    Like

  60. Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    Kyjay, did it ever occur to you that some of our sources aren’t funded by the drug companies?

    Also, in this day and age, claiming ignorance no longer works.

    Like

  61. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Kyjay, I posted a legal decision. It only states that they did not provide enough evidence to support the claims of vaccine injury. It also paid the lawyer $8000, who was the only who benefited. I am quite sure the young lady did not benefit by the way she was paraded around in a movie.

    Lawrence, she is in Australia and therefore not eligible for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. It only pertains to the United States of America.

    I am quite sure she will propose this type of program to her elected representatives in Canberra. The folks in the Australian Vaccine Network have done much to influence legislation there:
    http://reasonablehank.com/2013/08/18/prime-minister-rudd-responds-to-demands-from-meryl-dorey/

    Like

  62. lee
    August 23, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    Kyjay, you are clearly a very, very silly person. You are only allowed to provide evidence here from quacks, frauds and shysters who fully SUPPORT vaccination. Drug company studies will be perfectly acceptable. Such studies are always transparent, of course. And it pays, by the way, to ignore newspaper articles citing such companies of being fined sums of even $3billion for lying in safety and efficacy studies and spiking with animal antibodies and such. Clearly, though, as a silly person, you may believe the newspaper reports. Stop doing that, you daft thing.

    Anecdotal evidence is only acceptable when, once again, it supports vaccination e.g. the myth of (vaccine-acquired) herd immunity. What were you thinking to even mention an actual vaccine reaction? Tch tch tch. And those parents we see elsewhere speaking out because their children have died after Gardasil? What idiots they are. They clearly don’t understand that they are wasting their time. Everyone knows you can only achieve publicity when your child dies from (what is deemed/pretended to be) a vaccine-preventable illness and it must be publicly blamed on those “terrible unvaccinated people”. Yes, those silly parents.

    Kyjay, it must be very tiring being you. Wouldn’t it be easier to go on autopilot and accept what you are spoon-fed without question? Put your blinkers back on, oh foolish one.

    Also I find you to be quite a silly person because you said “Where did I say (Gardasil vacination) has to stop?”. You should have said “It needs to stop, it’s a bigger joke than the flu vaccine”.

    Like

  63. Chris
    August 23, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    lee, please tell us who you do not consider to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.”

    Thank you.

    Also, do tell us why Special Master Dee Lord is not to be trusted (it is from my link in comment #55.

    Like

  64. Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Anyone ever notice whenever someone’s argument is “Think for yourself!”, it usually means “Think exactly as I do!”?

    Like

  65. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 12:25 am

    Well I am the lady with the daughter who had the severe reaction to Gardasil everyone is talking about. I have twin girls. Twin one had the injection and had a slight headache, pain at the injection site but has since broken out in tiny warts all over her legs. In fact both the girls have been getting warts since the injections. They are tiny at this stage. Twin two had a severe reaction to Gardasil. It was the second injection and we had it done at the doctor’s surgery as we were aware of the chances of severe reaction and didn’t think school was the best place to get it done. Thank god we were at the Doctor’s surgery. Twin two started screaming in pain with the most severe headache in the centre of her forehead. Then her vision in one eye went completely, her arm and leg went numb on one side and then she couldn’t feel her legs at all. Still all the while screaming in pain. After 5 minutes of symptoms like this , her eyes rolled into her head, she went white and stopped breathing. The nurse called for the crash cart and luckily one doctor was still around and she was bagged (resuscitated). Since this day she has had constant headaches, her periods disappeared completely for a few months, since having returned but are very skant. She has the little warts coming out as mentioned and still feels her eye is still not right. We have been back to the doctor several times and yes, the nurse did report this as a serious reaction to the Department of Health. As mentioned by others here, there has been many serious complications and most deaths have occurred after the third dose so I would be bloody stupid to take my girls back for a third dose. By the way I am a registered Nurse and was pro vaccination until this happened. I think this is a dangerous vaccination, the virus particles are larger than most particles found in vaccinations and a lot of people are having stroke symptoms which is exactly what my daughter had. This only happened 18th June and we are organising a specialist to see if this has caused any infertility problems as it was tested and found to cause infertility in lab rats and there is already a girl in Australia that has become infertile because of Gardasil plus several deaths. I would like to warn others as my daughter would have died had she had this injection at school.

    Like

  66. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 12:30 am

    Chris, if you actually missed the sarcasm directed at Lawrence’s “quacks, frauds and shisters” comment in my “quacks, frauds and shysters” remark, perhaps scroll up and read again.

    O.K., so let me get this straight. A judge said there was no case? But if a person does happen to win a case, that’s disregarded because that’s “only a court case and isn’t scientific proof”. In the minds of some people, I mean. That’s called having it both ways.

    And what happens when there’s a conflict of interest? I can think of a case in which a ruling was made against a very high profile person. Apparently that the judge’s brother sat on a pharmaceutical board was of no consequence. In the minds of some. In the minds of some others it’s called “being stitched up”.

    Perhaps, by way of reciprocation, you will be good enough to explain why the general public can have complete confidence in drug company studies? And perhaps elucidate on how we can have faith even in the CDC? The very same CDC which, apparently, recently removed information indicating their knowledge that something like 98,000,000 doses of polio vaccine were contaminated with SV40.

    Perhaps someone would like to touch on why the U.K. and Australian Governments (among others)purchased a vaccine that was causing very high rates of meningitis in Canadian children (and had already been discontinued there)? They did this with full knowledge of the Canadian situation.

    Perhaps, as a side point, someone might be good enough to explain how it’s possible to know for sure that governments can and do lie over various matters e.g. the WMD debacle, but when it comes to health policies – oh, no, that’s the holy grail – we can trust the government 100%. What?

    Like

  67. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2013 at 12:35 am

    Kaz: Are you incapable of making mistakes?
    lee: [citation needed]

    Like

  68. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 12:47 am

    Gray Falcon- I’m not sure what you mean by the above comment directed towards me?

    Like

  69. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2013 at 12:55 am

    Kaz- Do you have any proof of what happened? Are your recollections accurate? Do you have any sources for your claims? You may be surprised to hear this, but we have no reason to believe you over anyone else.

    Like

  70. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 1:07 am

    Gray falcon – I am sitting here with my mouth open in disbelief. I can’t believe what I just read.
    The most reliable source anyone can have is first hand. Are you calling me a liar? I am offended to the highest degree. As if I would “imagine” my daughter being resuscitated. Is “winning” an argument more important to you than being a human being? You are a disgrace to even make such insensitive comments to a mother who has been through her worst nightmare of seeing her daughter lifeless following a vaccination. I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy and I certainly wouldn’t be as rude to make such insensitive remarks

    Like

  71. Chris
    August 24, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Lee, I caught the sarcasm. That is why i asked you who are not “quacks, frauds and shysters.” Surely you have a list of qualified researchers that meet with your approval. Please share those names! Please tell us so we can be better informed to whom to listen to.

    And do tell us what conflict of interest the special master had.

    For the record, I have never mentioned any drug company studies. Though you are quite welcome to tell me what pharmaceutical companies paid for the papers I listed on the Japanese experience with pertussis and measles. I really want to know, but each time I ask I get exactly nothing.

    Kaz, please direct us to the PubMed indexed case report of your remarkable story. Surely it was remarkable enough to get published!

    Like

  72. Chris
    August 24, 2013 at 1:54 am

    Kaz: “The most reliable source anyone can have is first hand.”

    Well then post the PubMed indexed case report, or the US Court decision that paid for the vaccine injury through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. We now know one anecdote only had enough evidence to pay lawyers’ fees.

    What real verifiable evidence do you have?

    Like

  73. kyjay
    August 24, 2013 at 2:11 am

    Chris, Kaz is in Australia not the U.S. This only happened in June, geez!

    Like

  74. Chris
    August 24, 2013 at 2:37 am

    Australian doctors write case reports that are indexed in PubMed. It is a modern country.

    Geez! How come you did not know that!

    Like

  75. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 3:06 am

    Chris, I didn’t say the “special master” had a conflict of interest. Nor did I say that you mentioned drug company studies. You said “each time I ask I get exactly nothing”. You have asked me nothing before so there’s little point in pretending that you have. Yet I have asked questions that no one has answered.

    Gray Falcon – I notice that you didn’t challenge Chris when she (?) said “I have a kid who was injured by an actual disease”. You were clearly prepared to accept that at face value, despite no evidence of “proof”. And also no evidence of proof that a vaccine would have prevented that particular disease. I call that ummmm…hypocrisy.

    Like

  76. kyjay
    August 24, 2013 at 3:08 am

    My comment was in reference to you talking about U.S court cases when we don’t live in the U.S and the “geez” was because all the reports regarding this case, which only happened in June, are likely still being processed.

    Like

  77. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 3:15 am

    Kaz, my sister nearly died after her whooping cough vaccine back in 1980, a year after some countries ditched the vaccine altogether due to ineffectiveness. I was told once that if she had truly nearly died from the whooping cough vaccine that “it would have been on the front page of the newspaper”, and therefore I must have been lying because it didn’t make the newspaper. The front page of the newspaper! As if! Haha! This still cracks me up.

    Like

  78. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 3:21 am

    And the sorry nong who made the newspaper comment probably even believed what they were saying, which makes it even worse. That level of thickness is unfathomable. Hahaha!

    Like

  79. August 24, 2013 at 5:23 am

    @Kaz – “witness statements / first-hand accounts / eyewitness statements” are considered to be some of the most unreliable pieces of evidence available….just ask the multiple upon multiple convicted felons who were later found to be innocent – convicted on direct eyewitness testimony (including many on deathrow) who were later acquitted due to Science…..

    Any and all of these stories are just that “stories” until they are actually confirmed. When reports were made that their might be a connection between vaccines and autism, they were taken seriously & many studies were conducted (starting with the Thimerosal scare, followed by MMR, then others) but in each and every case, no evidence of any linkage was found.

    Now there is the issue of “adverse reactions.” Do they occur? Of course they do – in very rare cases, serious reactions can occur. Are these reactions tracked? Yes. Do we have a very good idea of how often these happen? Yes again.

    Vaccines are perhaps the most widely tracked and heavily regulated drugs on the planet today – not only do they go through the same testing and safety requirements, but they are tracked by multiple safety surveillance programs here in the US, Canada, WHO Worldwide, plus regulatory agencies in Europe, Asia, etc.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccine_monitoring/

    Now, if you’d like to claim “conspiracy” – that literally millions of individuals worldwide, including thousands of different organizations, governments, educational institutions, independent researchers, nurses, doctors, etc. are part of some “plan” or just a plain cover-up, then…..well, I have a Bridge in Brooklyn I’d love to sell you.

    Like

  80. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 7:10 am

    “Safety requirements”. Interesting. Yet still the Pluserix debacle occurred. And possibly ask all those infected with SV40 what they think of the so-called safety requirements.

    What goes on in the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation would turn the stomach.

    If vaccines are, indeed, the most “heavily regulated drugs on the planet today”, heaven help us all because that bodes very ill for other medication.

    Yes, we have a very good idea of how often these reactions “officially” happen – it’s anywhere from 1% to 10% of the true number of cases.

    If there is any conspiracy, it’s a conspiracy of ignorance – whether deliberate or otherwise.

    Like

  81. August 24, 2013 at 7:31 am

    @lee – I posted actual, real informaiton. And a heck of a lot has occurred since SV40 (let’s see, been about 60 years now, right?) not to mention no actual proof of harm…..

    You have any “real” information to share, or just stories?

    Like

  82. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 7:37 am

    My daughter’s case has been reported as a severe adverse reaction to Gardasil. I am a Registered nurse and know exactly what I saw and what action was taken. You seem to think this is an unusual case but in fact there have been several deaths from Gardasil. At the end of the day I can only try to warn others of our own personal experiences and I can assure you this happened. You can heed it if you wish or you can choose to ignore it. I ignored it and my daughter is suffering the consequences. Unfortunately many of us don’t realise the truth until we see it with our own eyes. if I had my time over I would obviously have not allowed my children to have it. It is a recent vaccination and it might take years before the true extent of adverse affects become apparent. Many things have been deemed safe in the past until we realised many years later that they were in fact dangerous. It took 80 years to realise fibro asbestos was killing people and DDT was sprayed directly over people to demonstrate how “safe” it was and of course we know better now. I am just a mum who’s trying to do the right thing and warn people from my own experiences.

    Like

  83. August 24, 2013 at 7:41 am

    @lee – this is very good information as well:

    http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/VAERS.htm

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/conversations/downloads/vacsafe-vaers-color-office.pdf

    So, can you actually provide any real data to back up any of your assertions?

    Like

  84. August 24, 2013 at 7:45 am

    @Kaz – DDT is a horrible example, given what we know now (that there was a huge overreaction to it & hundreds of thousands of either died from or now suffer from malaria because of the “rush to judgement.”).

    Also, the removal process of asbestos has caused more harm than just leaving it be (sealed in other materials) in many cases. Again, this “rush to judgement” without waiting for all of the evidence to be presented has, in fact, caused much more harm that you’d like to believe.

    Please explain to me how a Girl dying in a car accident can be blamed on Gardisil? (because that is one of the “deaths” that gets listed all the time by you anti-vax folks)

    Like

  85. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 7:53 am

    Well I decided to go and look up the Australian Government adverse reactions that have been documented seeing as no-one wants to take my word for what happened to my daughter. It only goes up to May 15th 2013 and my daughter’s case happened in June but I have provided the link so you can see the “proof” that it only goes to May 15th as you probably won’t believe me. There are plenty of other documented cases if you want to take a look. http://www.tga.gov.au/daen/daen-report.aspx

    Like

  86. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 7:56 am

    and I only searched from 2005

    Like

  87. Kaz
    August 24, 2013 at 8:06 am

    Lawrence, my grandfather died from asbestosis. Yet it was the wonder material of its day. No-one would have believed then what they know now. I really believe Gardasil will one day be banned.

    Like

  88. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2013 at 8:28 am

    Kaz, do you know what happened in Salem in the year 1692? That was based on eyewitness testimony.

    Like

  89. kyjay
    August 24, 2013 at 8:35 am

    Really Gray Falcon? – that’s what you come back with? That’s hilarious. Deny, deny deny. I’m going to bed

    Like

  90. August 24, 2013 at 8:47 am

    @kyjay – please refer to the “Innocence Project” – how many of those men were convicted by “eye-witness testimony?”

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/

    Like

  91. August 24, 2013 at 8:48 am

    @Kaz – and what does the disclaimer mean that comes up when you first reach that database?

    Like

  92. August 24, 2013 at 10:10 am

    lee, please tell us who you do not consider to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.”

    Kaz, what does the link I posted in comment #55 say?

    Lawrence, I just saw that link in a trailer for West of Memphis. Something that Kaz, lee and friends should see. It is all in the evidence.

    Like

  93. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2013 at 11:41 am

    By the way, Kaz, the comments you made to me in #70 didn’t answer my questions at all. I didn’t call you a liar, I asked if you had any evidence. Don’t say I was being insensitive, you are being just as insensitive to all the potential victims of HPV.

    Like

  94. lee
    August 24, 2013 at 11:54 am

    “lee, please tell us who you do not consider to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.” Once again you miss the point entirely. Either that, or you’re simply attempting to be a smart (_!_) and not succeeding at it. The point had nothing to do with who I consider Not to be “quacks, frauds and shysters”. I made the point very clear as to who I considered to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.” You’ll have to do better than that.

    kyjay – also grinning over the hilarity of the comment by Gray Falcon. And also over comparison by others of men being convicted vs a mother giving a report of her child having to be resuscitated by a doctor. It’s too, too funny. Perhaps they weren’t really resuscitating her? Perhaps Kaz’s memory is faulty? Perhaps the children were actually at the dentist and what Kaz saw was really just her daughter having some work done on her mouth? I mean, come on, it’s so easy to mix these things up and forget these details.

    “And a heck of a lot has occurred since SV40 (let’s see, been about 60 years now, right?)” – yes a heck of a lot has occurred since then – a heck of a lot of cancer cases as a result of it. Lawrence, you may consider paragraphs of your own opinion, plus a link to the CDC, to be actual information. But I will have to beg to differ.

    Like

  95. August 24, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    @lee – I still notice that you have yet to provide any evidence or citations of your own……

    Like

  96. August 24, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    @lee – see, this stuff is actually being studied….

    http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/3/2/97-0227_article.htm

    Like

  97. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    @lee- There are numerous documented cases of people having vivid memories of crimes that never even happened. There is a possibility that the vaccine and the resuscation could have occurred several weeks apart, and Kaz’s recollection of the events is faulty. This is a very real phenomena, and you should not dismiss it lightly; not as long as there is a possibility of an innocent being convicted of a crime that never happened.

    Like

  98. Chris
    August 24, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    lee, please tell us who you do not consider to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.”

    I am not missing a “point.” I want to know who you consider to have valid data. How do you tell the difference between an unverified story and actual researched evidence?

    Kaz, where did I cut and paste the following from?

    The TGA uses adverse event reports to identify when a safety issue may be present.

    An adverse event report does not mean that the medicine is the cause of the adverse event.
    If you are experiencing an adverse event, or think you may be experiencing one, please seek advice from a health professional as soon as possible.
    The TGA strongly advises people taking prescription medicines not to change their medication regime without prior consultation with a health professional.

    Like

  99. dingo199
    August 24, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    For a vaccine that has been shown to have so few serious adverse reactions, it is somewhat surprising that 2 out of the handful of people commenting here report a relative “nearly died” from Gardasil. Statistically speaking, this must mean that there must be tens of thousands of other blogs on vaccines where no-one has reported any serious problems.

    Kaz. I don’t doubt your daughter had some form of reaction. That is very unfortunate. How clinically severe it was and how likely the vaccine was to have caused it we don’t really know, and only a medically reliable investigation and report could provide verifiable corroboration. I guess we can check the database next month to see the report when it appears. presumably there will be further medical publication appearing related to it, seeing as how it was seemingly so serious.

    From past experience with these incidents, I would imagine that such an unusual event would have made it into local or national media. I wonder where those reports are?

    Like

  100. dingo199
    August 24, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    @Lee, what exactly is the “Pluserix debacle” you are talking about?

    Are referring to the fact that the early versions of MMR caused a very rare but clinically mild and inconsequential side effect (aseptic meningitis in one in every 12,000 MMR shots), yet the actual disease it prevents (mumps) causes the same reaction in 10-30% of cases?

    If so, I agree – that antivax idiots could contrive to rustle up a veritable sh*t storm over this irrelevance certainly counts as a “debacle”.

    Like

  101. August 25, 2013 at 11:24 am

    I still like to pull out this particular study:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063829

    Which shows that direct causation between vaccines and reactions are very low – regardless of what the anti-vax folks think.

    Like

  102. Rob
    August 25, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    I think Kaz, Lee, and Kyjay’s points are extremely well-taken. Lawrence, if a girl faints in the car driving home from having gotten Gardasil (a common side effect) and dies in the accident, isn’t it similar to dying in an accident while driving drunk? Would it not be the alcohol and the vaccine that caused the death?

    Like

  103. August 25, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    @Rob – she was a passenger…..explain that one.

    Like

  104. Quokka
    August 25, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Dingo – being in Australia also I am puzzled why this young girl “nearly dying” from a vaccine reaction has not made the news. Particulalry as in the last 6 months vaccines have been big news with various newspaper and political campaigns.

    I have worked in the education system for over 20 years and although the event did not happen on a school site it would have been reported to all school health nurses and school administrators in order that nurses be alert to similar reactions during on site vaccination programs. Although I have worked mostly in the public education system we liaise over health regulation etc across all jurisdictions.

    The terrible tragedy regarding Saba Button is regulalrly updated in the media some years after the event it was such a unique occurance. There are a coupple of anti-HPV campaigners here that I am sure you are aware of that would be searching for any such extreme adverse events to blog about. It is curious that this one has completely slipped past their notice.
    I will be checking the databases and with my GP pals about what they have heard about this event.

    Like

  105. Kyjay
    August 25, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    Thank you Robert for your words of support. As parents, it’s a shame we all can’t support each other. Freedom of choice and freedom of information shouldn’t even be debated

    Like

  106. BHew
    August 25, 2013 at 11:34 pm

    Easy decision for us – no HPV vaccine, just like any other.

    Like

  107. kyjay
    August 25, 2013 at 11:59 pm

    why are my comments now being moderated?

    Like

  108. Kaz
    August 26, 2013 at 12:06 am

    I don’t blame you BHew. Even the drug company doesn’t deny the serious adverse reactions occur or that death has occurred. Maybe those saying otherwise haven’t read the leaflet that comes with the injections. And that is the drug company!!!!

    Like

  109. kyjay
    August 26, 2013 at 12:07 am

    Why have you moderated Lee’s response to Dingo’s question related to the “Pluserix debacle” What are you afraid of? The truth?
    What hope would Kaz’s case have of making headline news if you won’t even let out a truthful comment here. It depends on who owns the media outlet, doesn’t it.

    Like

  110. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:15 am

    Yes, it’s very odd that my comment before was moderated. What’s going on with that? On my screen it’s comment #101, yet cannot be seen by others.

    Like

  111. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:24 am

    No, comment still not appearing.

    Like

  112. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:28 am

    I’ll see if it will allow a part of the comment

    Merck falsifying efficacy testing data with animal (rabbit) antibodies.

    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/MerckUnsealed.pdf

    Like

  113. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:30 am

    I’ll break it all up, then.

    This Pubmed study – Nucleotide sequence analysis of Urabe mumps vaccine strain that caused meningitis in vaccine recipients – indicates the withdrawal of the Trivirax vaccine in Canada.

    The use of the word debacle is appropriate in this instance in every way. In case anyone is unsure of the meaning of the word, it means a failure or a fiasco. The fact that it was withdrawn certainly indicates a failure, and the fact that it was subsequently knowingly bought by governments in other countries – renamed Pluserix – certainly indicates a fiasco.

    The question begs to be asked – that if it was really all nothing to worry about, why withdraw it.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1759507

    Like

  114. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:34 am

    Still was being used at this point (look at the year). And of Course we can believe the SmithKline statement.

    http://articles.philly.com/1992-09-17/business/26023928_1_smithkline-spokesman-smithkline-beecham-rohm-haas

    Like

  115. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:37 am

    CDC fact sheet. The words “some research results are conflicting” are rather telling.

    I have to use a link from elsewhere because the CDC has removed this information from their own site, which fact I mentioned previously.

    http://curezone.com/upload/_U_V_W_Forums/Vaccination/CDC_Concerns_Cancer_Simian_Virus_40_SV40_and_Polio_Vaccine_Fact_Sheet_.pdf

    Like

  116. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:42 am

    Kind of unusual that I sent the (whole) message to kyjay privately and even she was unable to post it here without getting the “awaiting moderation” across the top.

    Like

  117. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 12:59 am

    I’ve just realised that I forgot the very first part of the moderated comment:

    (Kaz, it’s pretty much the newspaper comment (“local or national media”) again. Too funny.)
    Without scrolling back to see exactly what I wrote, a couple of things I think I mentioned

    Pharmaceutical company fraud

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/business/glaxosmithkline-agrees-to-pay-3-billion-in-fraud-settlement.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

    Like

  118. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 1:02 am

    Kaz, in reference to Quokka’s comment – in may be worthwhile looking up an article on Saba and finding the name of a journalist who may be willing to put your story right out there so it can serve as a warning to others.

    Like

  119. kyjay
    August 26, 2013 at 6:37 am

    interesting study into ovarian failure after HPV vaccine
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23902317

    Like

  120. August 26, 2013 at 8:09 am

    @kyjay – yes, interesting as it was completely & utterly dismantled already here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/09/antivaccinationists-against-the-hpv-vaccine-round-5000/

    Like

  121. August 26, 2013 at 8:15 am

    Hmmm….a horrible study of three women vs. trials & survelliance of hundreds of thousands…..I think I’ll take actual science.

    Like

  122. Chris
    August 26, 2013 at 9:27 am

    lee, please tell us who you do not consider to be “quacks, frauds and shysters.”

    Like

  123. dingo199
    August 26, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    Lee, I see that you think when a medical product which is highly successful is superseded by an even better one, you label the scenario a “fiasco” or a “debacle”.

    No doubt you would be highly critical of the “insulin debacle”, when salmon and pork insulin were first used to treat diabetes, or the “transplant fiasco”, when renal transplants were first carried out.

    Presumably you also believe that because a company makes a fraud settlement that means all their products are utterly useless? Massive, massive strawman that one – did you bring your boyscout sticks to rub together and set it alight?

    Fact: Mumps causes meningitis in 10-30% of those suffering from it.
    Fact: Urabe strain mumps vaccine causes meningitis in 1 in every 12,000 shots.

    Do the math.
    Even you can’t be that stupid.

    Like

  124. dingo199
    August 26, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Also people should note that these case reports that are being touted as “published by the British Medical Journal” are in fact non peer-reviewed electronic publications of what are known as “BMJ case reports”. These are not published in the BMJ proper, but are reports that anyone can publish if they pay an annual “Fellowship fee” of £125.
    This means you can submit any report you want without having to undergo peer review.

    Bit of a scam if you ask me, ripe for exploitation by people who cannot get a valid paper published on the subject.

    Like

  125. dingo199
    August 26, 2013 at 6:22 pm
  126. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    Dingo, you have seemingly missed the point. The point is that various governments purchased Pluserix, despite knowing that it was, to put it mildly, a crappy vaccine and that it had already been withdrawn elsewhere. This is a fact. It’s nothing to do with being “superseded by a better one”. Who says it was superseded by anything better? You? It was rushed through into the U.K. in a 3 week period, when some of the side effects in the cases in Canada hadn’t even started until after a 3 week period. And they knew it. The government knew it was so dodgy that they even assumed the pharmaceutical company’s liability because the company was reluctant to obtain the license, based on the past history of the vaccine – i.e. the company was afraid of having its a$$ sued off. Oh, yes, of Course we can trust the stats supplied by such a government.

    “Presumably you also believe that because a company makes a fraud settlement that means all their products are utterly useless?” I actually believe that sometimes these companies will do anything for money, including an example I gave of Merck falsifying their results with rabbit antibodies in order to ensure they were granted a licence. It’s disgusting and it’s immoral. It is naive to think that their interest is in our health.

    People, such as yourself, put a little too much faith in the government and pharmaceutical manufacturers. You put your health in their hands. They lie, and sometimes they get caught out lying. And if this is what they get caught out with, who knows what goes on behind the scenes that we don’t know about. Sometimes they make very, very dodgy decisions that are not based on anything to do with health and are everything to do with politics.

    By all means, if you wish to stick the vaccines manufactured by these companies into your arm, go ahead. But know that you cannot rely on their safety or efficacy studies. And you cannot rely on the CDC, who seemingly remove information from public view when the subject becomes too much of a hot topic. And I think most would be aware that the FDA is a bit of a corrupt joke.

    I happen to agree with the opinion of this gentleman when it comes to the unhealthy alliance between drug manufacturers and the regulators:

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4330262.html

    And also be aware that if anything does go wrong after a vaccine that the very best will be done to sweep it under the carpet (far more convenient that way). And that on one hand there’s the admission that adverse reactions Can occur – oh EXCEPT for when they DO occur – and then oh, no, that couldn’t Possibly have occurred e.g. Lawrence telling Kaz that what happened to her daughter was “biologically impossible”. Why? Is everyone’s body chemistry exactly the same? Or because some drug company said that it can only cause this, this and this – so it couldn’t Possibly cause THAT? And then comes the typical bleating of “correlation doesn’t equal causation” – because what else can those with wool over their eyes do but bleat the same thing over and over again.

    Chris, that pointless question is becoming a bit old and you know it.

    Like

  127. Chris
    August 26, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    lee, that is not a pointless question. You are now pulling out conspiracy theories like “And you cannot rely on the CDC, who seemingly remove information from public view when the subject becomes too much of a hot topic. And I think most would be aware that the FDA is a bit of a corrupt joke.”

    I just want to know who is not part of the conspiracy and can be trusted. And the question is not old, you just refuse to answer it. Why is that? Why should we care what you say if you don’t post any evidence (editorials that distort the book being reviewed do not count).

    Like

  128. Kyjay
    August 26, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    Chris, seriously, scroll back up and read it again. What Lee has been trying to point out to you is that Lawrence made the quacks frauds and shysters comment first. Lee was being facetious

    Like

  129. Chris
    August 26, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    So? I quoted lee saying “You are only allowed to provide evidence here from quacks, frauds and shysters who fully SUPPORT vaccination.”

    Basically, he is saying that those who fully support vaccination are quacks, frauds and shysters. I am trying to figure out who lee trusts. What is the problem with that?

    He/she comes in here telling us we are all wrong, but won’t produce any evidence. Plus everyone, especially the CDC and FDA, is corrupt. So who are we to trust?

    Like

  130. Kyjay
    August 26, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    Trust no-one 😉

    Like

  131. Chris
    August 26, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    Okay, Kyjay. I shall not trust you nor lee. How does that sound?

    From a book I am reading (Big Data, page 166), the mantra from managers in Silicon Valley, factory floors and government offices was often “In God we trust – all others bring data.”

    We were given the sad story of one young lady brought down by the HPV vaccine. But with just a couple of variations of search terms I was able to find her case in the US Vaccine Court. Apparently they did not have enough data.

    So where is your data? Where is lee’s data? What data do you believe?

    Like

  132. lee
    August 26, 2013 at 11:55 pm

    O.K. I’ll explain the quote of mine you are fixated on in a different fashion. “You are only allowed to provide evidence here from quacks, frauds and shysters who fully SUPPORT vaccination.” As you already know, it was in reference to a comment made to kyjay by Lawrence. Lawrence was making his position clear that any information she had already provided (or was likely to provide) was from (in his opinion) quacks, frauds or shysters.

    So me saying to kyjay “You are only allowed to provide evidence here from quacks, frauds and shysters who fully SUPPORT vaccination” was me saying, in other words, “Unless you provide information from sources personally approved by Lawrence and supportive of vaccination, he won’t believe you anyway”. As kyjay has already mentioned, I was being facetious.

    And then I went on, in a very clear fashion in that very same comment to spell out who *I* thought the quacks, frauds and shysters are.

    Then I went on to provide information to indicate the level of fraud that goes on in government and the pharmaceutical industry. And I’m still scratching my head as to why the CDC has removed that information about SV40. I wonder what is so threatening about it that it had to be removed. I don’t get it. It makes me wonder if it will properly come out that it was known the vaccine was contaminated before it was released. It might be something to do with that.

    Why do you assume that I make every decision in life based on data? If people are really making such important decisions about their health based on nothing but data, than the situation out there is even worse than I would suspect. Such decisions are very personal ones. It’s a decision about human beings, not numbers. And not based on the myth of vaccine-derived herd immunity.

    At some point, society seems to have handed over health into the hands of other people. A doctor says “It’s safe”. Unfortunately that’s truly all the convincing that some people require before they make a decision about their health.

    It’s really not enough to say that a vaccine is O.K. because it only kills, cripples, or causes permanent neurological damage in X number of people. A vaccine actually needs to be safe and effective for those who chose to use it.

    Data is of little consequence to the parents of vaccine-damaged children. Data doesn’t help them work out what they’ll do with their child one day after they are no longer around to care for the child. A belief in the God of Data will not help those Japanese girls, who are now in wheelchairs as a result of Gardasil, to walk again. And it sure won’t allay the fears of Kaz, who now has to worry if permanent damage has been done to her daughter.

    Like

  133. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 12:02 am

    The FDA is not above reproach

    http://rense.com/general33/legal.htm

    Like

  134. Chris
    August 27, 2013 at 12:28 am

    lee, who do you trust data from? And since the SV40 virus was filtered from American polio vaccines fifty years ago, why is that an issue? Especially since there are plenty of pages about SV40 at the CDC website.

    Perhaps your favored CDC site on it was removed because it was outdated. It did become a non-issue fifty years ago.

    Who is Rich Murray, and why should we trust him? Please post his CV and peer reviewed publications. Why should we trust Jeff Rense? Please post his CV and peer reviewed publications. Just a reminder, conspiracy theories are not data.

    Like

  135. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 1:47 am

    Wow, Chris, I just told you that I don’t rely on “data” in making my own personal health decisions. Couldn’t make it any plainer than that. If you don’t know why SV40 is still an issue, there’s little hope is there. I don’t recall saying you should trust anyone – I believe I said that I shared an opinion with someone. I think it will be obvious to anyone reading what I’ve been trying to say here – which is that having a blind faith in government and companies, particularly when it comes to your own health, is not be the best way to go. That’s basic common sense. And I trust that.

    Like

  136. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 1:52 am

    *is not the best way to go.

    Like

  137. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 5:22 am

    And I’ll post again the cached version of the “removed” CDC page again, where it can be seen that the subject is not a non-issue. As I said previously, the words “some studies are conflicting” are rather telling. I would just love to know why they removed it, plain and simple.

    http://curezone.com/upload/_U_V_W_Forums/Vaccination/CDC_Concerns_Cancer_Simian_Virus_40_SV40_and_Polio_Vaccine_Fact_Sheet_.pdf

    Someone might really enjoy, as I did, this NY Times article which clearly demonstrates the corruption that goes on at the CDC and the FDA.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/health/policy/18cdc.html?_r=4&

    A couple of quotes from the article:

    “Most of the experts who served on advisory panels in 2007 to evaluate vaccines for flu and cervical cancer had potential conflicts that were never resolved, the report said. Some were legally barred from considering the issues but did so anyway.In the report, expected to be released Friday, Daniel R. Levinson, the inspector general of the Department of Health and Human Services, found that the centers failed nearly every time to ensure that the experts adequately filled out forms confirming they were not being paid by companies with an interest in their decisions.”

    “The report found that 64 percent of the advisers had potential conflicts of interest that were never identified or were left unresolved by the centers. Thirteen percent failed to have an appropriate conflicts form on file at the agency at all, which should have barred their participation in the meetings entirely, Mr. Levinson found. And 3 percent voted on matters that ethics officers had already barred them from considering.”

    “Most of the advisers identified by Mr. Levinson had either a job or a grant from a company or other entity whose interests were affected by the committees’ discussions, and a considerable number also owned stock in such companies, the report said.”

    ——————————————————————-

    Let those words REALLY sink in: “Most of the advisers identified by Mr. Levinson had either a job or a grant from a company or other entity whose interests were affected by the committees’ discussions, and a considerable number also owned stock in such companies, the report said.”

    And people put their health in the hands of such organisations. It is naive to put faith in the CDC and FDA.

    Like

  138. August 27, 2013 at 5:31 am

    @lee – since the data presented by the CDC has been backed up by multiple upon multiple independent research organizations, educational institutions, regulatory agencies abroard and literally thousands of researchers, doctors and scientists, I do find them to be a very credible repository of information…..as of yet, you have not provided a single scrap of real evidence to support the position that vaccines are incredibly safe, very effective, and the best method for avoiding vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Like

  139. August 27, 2013 at 5:43 am

    Damn – we need an edit function, I mean, evidence to support the position that vaccines are NOT……I need more coffee this morning.

    Like

  140. August 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    lee reminds me too much of Steve Michaels. Relying on conspiracy theories and random silly websites. Nothing he/she has any relevance to the above article.

    lee needs to be ignored until he/she learns what is or is not evidence. And yes, further evidence did make that one CDC page obsolete. And it even said the all polio vaccines were free from SV40 since 1963. S

    Like

  141. dingo199
    August 27, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    lee :
    Dingo, you have seemingly missed the point. The point is that various governments purchased Pluserix, despite knowing that it was, to put it mildly, a crappy vaccine and that it had already been withdrawn elsewhere. This is a fact. It’s nothing to do with being “superseded by a better one”. Who says it was superseded by anything better? You?

    The Urabe strain vaccine was displaced by the Jeryl-Lynn strain vaccine, as you well know. The reason this became the favored vaccine was that no cases of aseptic meningitis were linked with it. None whatsoever. Ergo it was a “safer” vaccine. This is standard medical therapeutic evolution in practice. Because a product is replaced by one that is deemed to be safer in certain circumstances, that does not mean there is a conspiracy going on. You need to wake up to modern realities of medicine, or in fact the realities of life, period. FYI Urabe strain vaccine, because it is very cheap and has great cost-utility, is still the recommended vaccine in many 3rd world countries, and is not a “crappy” vaccine. At least some people can make sensible and rational decisions while weighing up evidence, something you seem to be unable to do.

    It was rushed through into the U.K. in a 3 week period, when some of the side effects in the cases in Canada hadn’t even started until after a 3 week period. And they knew it. The government knew it was so dodgy that they even assumed the pharmaceutical company’s liability because the company was reluctant to obtain the license, based on the past history of the vaccine – i.e. the company was afraid of having its a$$ sued off. Oh, yes, of Course we can trust the stats supplied by such a government.

    Hardly “dodgy”. When the initial reports of a problem in I think it was 3 cases in Canada, the UK JCVI immediately set up studies to investigate whether the problem was one linked to Urabe or to all mumps vaccines. So it certainly did not “know it”, not until the final British Pediatric Survey study results came in and the Nottingham cases were analysed. Even then there was debate, not just in the UK, but in other countries too as to whether Urabe (with its tiny risk of a harmless meningitis, but better immunoreactivity) was really worse than Jeryl Lynn (with its lower effectiveness). At that point, only 2 countries had advised not to use Urabe – Canada, and Japan. It was never “withdrawn” in Canada. Japan was the only country to withdraw MMR altogether at that point – an astoundingly stupid thing to do, since this led to outbreaks of around 300,000 cases of measles and hundreds of deaths in 1998-2001.

    I actually believe that sometimes these companies will do anything for money, including an example I gave of Merck falsifying their results with rabbit antibodies in order to ensure they were granted a licence. It’s disgusting and it’s immoral. It is naive to think that their interest is in our health.

    So you accept you have ignited a flaming strawman. If you distrust pharma so much, I’d like to know what you’d do if your child got meningitis…. use homeopathy?

    People, such as yourself, put a little too much faith in the government and pharmaceutical manufacturers. You put your health in their hands. They lie, and sometimes they get caught out lying. And if this is what they get caught out with, who knows what goes on behind the scenes that we don’t know about. Sometimes they make very, very dodgy decisions that are not based on anything to do with health and are everything to do with politics.

    The evidence for vaccine efficacy doesn’t just come from pharma. Hundreds of independent studies allied with the clear epidemiological evidence of vaccine efficacy attest to their success, and their safety record. The benefit-harm equation is heavily weighted towards the benefit that vaccines bestow.

    Like

  142. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    “Most of the advisers identified by Mr. Levinson had either a job or a grant from a company or other entity whose interests were affected by the committees’ discussions, and a considerable number also owned stock in such companies, the report said.”

    Like

  143. lee
    August 27, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Let’s make it really easy – you can keep bleating about relative risk and we’ll keep laughing up our sleeves at you.

    Like

  144. novalox
    August 27, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @lee

    [citation needed] within three posts that supports your viewpoints, or we can all assume that you are lying.

    Again, why should anyone believe you, when all you have to offer is conspiracy theory and outright ad hominem?

    Like

  145. August 27, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    I am sorry, lee (or is it really Steve Michaels?), we are not laughing with you but at you.

    Especially for the eleven year old Rense link posted by email spammer Rich Murray, who used to harvest the emails from the Healthfraud listserv and then send copious emails of his nonsensical rants. When I switched from a phone modem ISP to a cable modem I decided not to post with my new email to the Healthfraud listserv.

    In addition to your posting of old news articles, silly papers from dodgy researchers like Tomljenovic financed by those with significant conflicts of interest, and persevering on a contamination that was fixed fifty years ago by the Big Pharma scientists, it is your reliance on conspiracy theories. You are a laugh riot.

    Just go away until you have real evidence. And remember, there have been millions of doses given of the HPV, and yet the statistics do not show any kind of prevalent problem. In fact, I posted the US Vaccine Court decision that showed one “victim” that had been paraded around had no actual evidence. None, zip, nada. And this is where the bar for proof is very very low.

    Like

  146. August 27, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    “Just go away until you have real evidence.”

    And please do not get another sock puppet, Mr. Michaels. Your reliance of conspiracy theories and derailing of discussions is why you were banned. Take a hint.

    Like

  147. dingo199
    August 28, 2013 at 5:23 am

    I know this is rather off topic, but it is interesting to reflect that the very same authorities in the UK who people like Lee criticise for not instantly banning the Urabe strain MMR vaccine and switching to the Jeryl-Lynn strain vaccine have essentially been vindicated for their careful deliberation about the relative merits or otherwise of the MMR vaccines.

    Why so? Well Lee and his antivaxer pals are now in a slavering fury that Jeryl-Lynn strain MMR vaccine may not be as effective in preventing mumps as initially thought. Yet it was exactly this worry that made the UK authorities call for more data and information about the risks of Urabe strain MMR and the benefits of Jeryl-Lynn strain MMR when deciding what to do about the isolated reports of aseptic meningitis that were emerging from Canada at that time.

    What the UK JCVI did was actually a very measured, thoughtful and proportionate response to the problem, as Lee and his cronies now accept(now they have finally woken up to the fact that JL strain is less immunogenic, therefore less protective than Urabe strain against mumps, exactly what the JCVI were concerned about all those years ago). The fantastic prescience of the JCVI should now be rightly lauded by Lee et al.

    Like

  148. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 6:47 am

    Surely those here who wish to deny all evidence of adverse reactions to Gardasil, even those that have been reported to Government Health Bodies don’t also deny that aluminium is a toxin to humans (as it is to all animals, hence its use as a rat poison). Honestly, everyone knows the toxicity of aluminium. If you say there is no toxicity to aluminium then I know you have your heads buried in the sand.

    Like

  149. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 7:09 am

    Kaz, you are aware that aluminum is the third most common element in the Earth’s crust. if it was half as toxic as you say it is, life would never have formed in the first place.

    Like

  150. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 7:16 am

    Gray Falcon you have a great argument there! LOL! It is in the Earth’s crust therefore we should be injected with it! hahaha! Too funny. Why on earth did I complete my Masters in Applied Science in Nursing when I could just have your logic “it exists, therefore it is good for me” Too funny! I guess you think the same about lead.

    Like

  151. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 7:20 am

    Kaz, please do not lie about your credentials. You could not possibly get a medical degree of any sort if you were unsafe of the concepts of “dosage” and “chemical compounds”.

    Like

  152. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 7:28 am

    Sorry, I meant unaware, not unsafe. Regardless, my point still stands: if aluminum were so toxic that such a miniscule dose, we’d all be dead.

    Your “all or nothing” thinking is pretty typical for a political fraud, but not condusive to a career in nursing. There’s a big difference between saying “It isn’t that toxic” and “It isn’t toxic at all.”

    Like

  153. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 7:30 am

    Gray Falcon I don’t need to lie, I have been nursing for years. I worked as a Nursing Unit Manager for years. I can see on the other hand your “knowledge” is very limited seeing as you are not even aware of the toxicity of aluminium in humans. In fact it is obvious to me that “you sir, are an idiot”. You don’t have the intelligence to even contribute here. I’m still laughing about your comment that aluminium is in the Earth’ crust therefore we should inject it! You didn’t even answer if this “logic” applies to lead. LOL!

    Like

  154. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 7:35 am

    BTW as alzheimer’s patients are shown to have aluminium deposits on the brain post mortem, I wasn’t referring to whether or not life could exist. You can “exist” with Alzheimer’s disease. It depends on what quality of life you are looking for. I was talking about aluminium being toxic to humans.

    Like

  155. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 7:35 am

    Lead isn’t that common, it isn’t a preservative, and again, you never address the issue of dosage. How much aluminum is in the vaccine? How much is in a dose of rat poison If you are a nurse, I would not be surprised if you were currently being sued for malpractice.

    Like

  156. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 7:47 am

    Gray falcon, aluminium is a cumulative poison. Every time you are injected with it, it accumulates, it is stored in your body. LOL! Being sued for malpractice!!! Your knowledge is such that I feel like I am talking with a dementia patient. Just for your sake I …will….talk….very….slowly…. You must be the only person on Earth who is unaware of the cumulative poison aluminium.

    Like

  157. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 7:57 am

    Kaz, how much aluminum is in the vaccine, and in what compound? If you do not answer these questions, I can only assume you are using the word “toxin” as a scare tactic. Water can be toxic in a large enough dose.

    Like

  158. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 8:03 am

    It is not a scare tactic, even the food and drug administration states aluminium is dangerous in minute quantities. You didn’t read what I wrote. I can list every vaccine here and how much aluminium it contains, and you can add them all up, because it is cumulative. I honestly can’t believe you don’t already know this.

    Like

  159. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 8:12 am

    Aluminium levels of vaccines.
    Hib – 225 micrograms per shot.
    Hepatitis B – 250 micrograms.
    DTaP – depending on the manufacturer, ranges from 170 to 625 micrograms.
    Pneumococcus – 125 micrograms.
    Hepatitis A – 250 micrograms.
    HPV – 225 micrograms.
    Pentacel (DTaP, HIB and Polio combo vaccine) – 330 micrograms.
    Pediarix (DTaP, Hep B and Polio combo vaccine) – 850 micrograms.

    Like

  160. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 8:13 am

    Kaz, what dosage, what compunds? How much did the FDA claim could cause harm, and in what form? Your brazen refusal to answer these questions says much about your integrity.

    Like

  161. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 8:14 am

    aluminium is a toxin (and a known and documented toxin) when injected.

    Like

  162. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 8:15 am

    Also, I’ll need sources for your claims. You’d be surprised how often people make up things online.

    Like

  163. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 8:23 am

    A newborn baby should have no more than 20-30 micrograms and an adult 350 micrograms. It goes on weight. a 12 year old should have no more than 225 micrograms. this means when they give the Gardasil (225 mcgs) with hepatitis B (250mcgs), plus DTaP(330-850mcgs) , they are giving way over the dosage which is deemed “safe”. Here in Australia the vaccination program is in schools. Children are given multiple injections on one day.

    Like

  164. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 8:27 am

    Gray Falcon, you only have to go and look at the information from the drug companies to see the dosage of aluminium these vaccinations contain. Don’t take my word for it, go and have a look for yourself. You asked, I gave you the figures, if you don’t believe me, you can easily check them out. But I have to work tomorrow so that is all from me for tonight. I know even the most pro-vaccine people out there are not stupid enough to say aluminium injected is good for you. I am not talking about ingested aluminium, I am talking about injected aluminium.

    Like

  165. Lawrence
    August 28, 2013 at 8:34 am

    @Kaz – can you explain the difference between pure aluminum and an aluminum salt?

    Like

  166. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 8:46 am

    Kaz, this whole discussion on aluminum started with your statement “If you say there is no toxicity to aluminium then I know you have your heads buried in the sand.” We never said that, we said the amount wasn’t enough to cause harm. Also, as Lawrence said, you still haven’t clarified whether you are talking about pure aluminum or an aluminum salt. Sodium is extremely toxic, sodium salts are essential to life.

    Like

  167. August 28, 2013 at 9:01 am

    @Gray – I’m sure she doesn’t know the difference between sodium chloride – sodium or chlorine, not to mention methyl or ethyl-mercury either…..

    Like

  168. August 28, 2013 at 9:03 am

    Except that in Australia, the only vaccine given at 12 years is the HPV vaccine (unless they haven’t had the Hep B shot) The DTaP isn’t given again until 15-17.

    http://www.mydr.com.au/kids-teens-health/vaccination-australian-standard-vaccination-schedule

    Like

  169. August 28, 2013 at 9:26 am

    So, Kaz is complaining about the receipt of vaccines, perhaps a decade or more apart?

    Yeah, makes total sense……NOT.

    Like

  170. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 10:48 am

    http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips-ctn
    is the official website Darwy, so get your facts right. All children in year 7 get DTaP along with Gardasil and Hep B and Varicella if they haven’t had it. My children were sent home with consent forms for all 4! All to be given same day! Many children had two injections in each arm! You need to look at the official vaccination schedule before you jump to conclusions.

    Like

  171. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Lawrence, you just proved that you have no knowledge on vaccine schedules.

    Like

  172. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 10:51 am

    Kaz, I read that page, that didn’t confirm your claim. And even if it did, the human body takes in far more antigens at once from breathing. Again, this casts serious doubt on your claims to a medical profession.

    Like

  173. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Also Lawrence, if you want to learn more about the types of aluminium used in different vaccines this may help http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/aluminum-in-vaccines-is-a-neurotoxin/ it will help you in your apparent need to know whether it is aluminium hydroxide, sulphate or phosphate, as you can see it varies vaccine to vaccine. And that is all I have to say as it is 1am here and I am going to get some sleep, not deal with idiots.

    Like

  174. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Kaz, I can’t read that website, my employer’s firewall lists it as a malicious site.

    Like

  175. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 10:59 am

    would you like to email me privately? For feck’s sake! Do you want to see my registration? Would you like to see the 4 consent forms sent home for a vaccination at school? Honestly this is ridiculous!

    Like

  176. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Goodnight Gray Falcon, very convenient I must say.

    Like

  177. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 11:02 am

    Kaz, would you prefer we be the type to trust random strangers over the internet? You make claims, you have to back them up. It’s as simple as that.

    Like

  178. August 28, 2013 at 11:02 am

    Kaz;

    It is in the Earth’s crust therefore we should be injected with it! hahaha! Too funny.

    Before you went to get a nursing degree, did you actually take basic science in high school? Or did you miss that plants are grown in soil, soil that consists of minerals that contain that aluminum? Plus most of the food you eat start off as plants? Or do you think that the produce in the grocery store just magically appears.

    Every day you ingest more aluminum than is in a lifetime of vaccines. And unless you spend a childhood indoors without any chance to play (which is probably why you would not know that most food comes from plants that grow in soil on the Earth’s crust), there is also aluminum “injected” by scraping knees in dirt or scraping arms on aluminum link faces

    Again, there have been millions of doses of HPV vaccines given. Where are all of those that are injured? Do they match the numbers of women who get cervical cancer each year? Provide the actual proof, and not random conspiracy stories about a ubiquitous element that you cannot avoid (there is aluminum contained in the computer you are typing on).

    Like

  179. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:08 am

    Once again Chris read back to what I posted I quote “I am not talking about ingested aluminium, I am talking about injected aluminium.” Did you miss that bit Chris? Ingested aluminium is not absorbed by the body. Injected aluminium is.
    I had cervical cancer cells removed with a simple cryosurgery in and out day surgery , never had a problem since and that was over 20 years ago. The fact I have regular pap smears is the key. What I went through is nothing to what my daughter went through having a severe reaction to Gardasil.

    Like

  180. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:10 am

    Really this could go on and on. Until you have someone close to you have a reaction to a vaccine you are not going to change your mind. But I bet my last dollar that when someone in your family is affected you will change your mind.

    Like

  181. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:12 am

    And I really am going to bed! fascinating as the company may be 😉

    Like

  182. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Kaz, Chris did mention injected aluminum:

    And unless you spend a childhood indoors without any chance to play (which is probably why you would not know that most food comes from plants that grow in soil on the Earth’s crust), there is also aluminum “injected” by scraping knees in dirt or scraping arms on aluminum link faces.

    Lying about what other people say does not help your case.

    Like

  183. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:25 am

    Gray Falcon, if you only knew how ridiculous this sounds. Your turn now to provide accurate stats. How much aluminium do you think is “injected” in a scraped knee? I’d love to see your stats on this! LOL!

    Like

  184. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 11:29 am

    Kaz, you have demonstrated both a fundamental lack of basic knowledge about science and a willingness to lie through your teeth. Why should I have a discussion with you?

    Like

  185. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:34 am

    Gray Falcon people usually retreat when they are losing an argument as you are now :)l

    Like

  186. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:38 am

    but before you retreat I would like those figures. If I don’t get statistics and a reliable source on exactly how much aluminium is “injected” through a scraped knee then you are the liar LOL!

    Like

  187. August 28, 2013 at 11:41 am

    Is Kaz trying to use safety limits for pure Aluminum to compare to the various Aluminum-Salt compounds in vaccines? That is exactly like using Methyl-Mercury levels to compare dangers to Ethyl….you’re not even talking about the same substances (and they don’t act in the same ways)….

    As to the vaccine schedule, I believe Kaz is talking about either 7th Grade or whatever Year 7 would be for Public Schools (say 12 years old) – most kids would have gotten HepB at birth, so cross that off the list, Varicella is usually given much younger (at least here it is) & HPV is recommended but not mandated….and if you received consent forms, it means that you can still say no.

    So, besides that fact that your Science is quite frankly awful – what is your problem?

    Like

  188. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:41 am

    no-one home? Hmmmm says a lot really. Has been lovely chatting, good night.

    Like

  189. August 28, 2013 at 11:42 am

    @Kaz – actually, a scrapped knee gets you more “aluminum” than in a vaccine, since the Aluminum-salts aren’t what you think they are…..and both end up in the same place (under the skin anyway).

    Like

  190. August 28, 2013 at 11:44 am

    @Kaz – and you’ve actually said very little. Glad that the Australian Government is cracking down on the anti-vax groups – they really are a menace (and they should quit calling the parents of children that died of VPDs and telling them it is no big deal or that it was their fault their children died).

    Like

  191. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Kaz- I wasn’t running. A cat may be frightened by a mouse, but a tiger disregards it entirely.

    Like

  192. August 28, 2013 at 11:48 am

    Kaz, please provide evidence that the HPV vaccine causes more injury than what is detailed in this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Also, anything you ingest will get into your bloodstream faster than what goes through a scrape or scratch. And there is lots of aluminum in the soil, mostly in the feldspars.

    Like

  193. August 28, 2013 at 11:51 am

    @Chris – I would also love to hear from Kaz how Pap Smears prevent Cancer….since they are only good at detection.

    Like

  194. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 11:58 am

    Lawrence it is different here. My children got Varicella younger but that was before it was mandatory and on the register. In Australia Mandatory vaccines are free. Varicella was optional when my children were younger and I had to pay $60 each for my children to have it. Because it wasn’t free most people didn’t get it back when their children were younger. It is now mandatory and on the register so everyone gets it in year 7 at school. (except for a few of us who paid to get it earlier) . Hep B is another one I paid for when my children were younger but most people didn’t so once again it is given in year 7. I had to prove my children had these vaccines earlier as they had a “blue book” with batch number etc. . My girls got the DtaP given at the same time as their first dose of Gardasil. So they had two injections, whereas other children got four injections on the same day. This schedule is for children currently in year 7.

    Like

  195. August 28, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Wouldn’t you get a Tdap as an adolescent?

    Still, Kaz, please provide evidence the HPV vaccine causes more injury than the quote I gave.

    Like

  196. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    So basically my children have been fully vaccinated for everything except the final , third dose of Gardasil. And I’m sure if you had a child who had a severe reaction to the second dose you wouldn’t send them back for a third dose either. There has been a huge reduction in cervical cancers since regular pap smear screening came into play. Even with Gardasil you still need regular pap smears. A pap smear means early detection. My early cancer cells were detected by pap smear and treated easily. It is only people who neglect to have pap smears that have further problems. Even the manufacturers of Gardasil state it only protects against 4 strains and pap smears are still essential

    Like

  197. Kaz
    August 28, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Chris , it is now after 2am here in Australia and I am working at the college today and need to get some sleep. I will get back into this conversation after I have finished for the day tomorrow. So for the final time, good night 🙂

    Like

  198. August 28, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Okay, be sure to that verifiable data. That does not mean raw self selected survey data from VAERS. But actual proof.

    Also, the Pap smear bit is not proof the vaccine does not work for most of the causes of cervical cancer. It means that they acknowledge the vaccine is not perfect, but again with a direct quote from the above article: “These two strains are responsible for about 70% of cervical cancers and 90% of genital warts.”

    70% is better than 0%.

    Like

  199. August 28, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    @Chris – yes, 70% is much better than 0% – again, Pap Smears do not “prevent” Cancer, they merely give early detection…..I’d rather not get something, than take the chance that whatever it was, was “detected” early enough to be treated.

    Like

  200. dingo199
    August 28, 2013 at 5:06 pm

    Perhaps Kaz could educate herself on aluminum in vaccines (and other things) here:

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

    Like

  201. dingo199
    August 28, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Kaz: “It is only people who neglect to have pap smears that have further problems.”

    Except that is not at all true – cervical cancer occurs in women who have rigorously stuck to the pap smear schedules. In the US 30%-40% of cervical cancers are in women who have had a smear in the previous 5 years. Pap smears were estimated to be likely to prevent only 40% of the deaths from cervical cancer in the UK.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC153831/

    I can never understand the mentality of people who say that it is fine to catch HPV because if you get a pap smear you can catch the cancer it causes at an early, treatable stage.

    I can imagine this principle extended to other areas of life….
    “I never let my kid wear a crash helmet because neurosurgical units are really good at treating head injuries nowadays…”, and:
    “I always eat uncooked chicken, because antibiotics are pretty good at treating Salmonella gastroenteritis…”

    Like

  202. lee
    August 28, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    Hahahaha! So now I’ve morphed into a man named Mr Michaels??????? What a rare treat to see such desperate straw-clutching from those who defend the indefensible. Hahahaha! That was worth returning for. So interesting to find known corruption at both the FDA and CDC (the true sock puppets) being described as “conspiracy theory”, when thinking people would describe it as “simply the way the world works”. Bleating about conspiracy theory won’t change the facts. And bleating about what the U.K. government later did will not change the fact that they purchased a vaccine that they already knew had been withdrawn elsewhere. Any thinking person who reads though these posts will see these simple truths.

    Kaz – you really are beating your head against a brick wall because, unfortunately, these people are coming across as truly thick and blinkered and apparently truly believe it’s O.K. for a certain number of people to die or to be permanently physically or neurologically damaged by a vaccine. That level of blindness is very deliberate, and that blind acceptance of substandard products guarantees with 100% certainty that the world will never have such a thing as a safe vaccine.

    Like

  203. August 28, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    lee, let us just say that you are using “Steve Michaels like typing.” Your reliance on conspiracy theories and refusal to post verifiable facts is what you have in common with him. You are only providing comic relief. If you don’t like being accused of using conspiracy theories, use actual data. Also do not post websites of known conspiracy theorists like Jeff Rense.

    “these people are coming across as truly thick and blinkered and apparently truly believe it’s O.K. for a certain number of people to die or to be permanently physically or neurologically damaged by a vaccine. ”

    You have not posted any real evidence that the vaccine causes injury in excess of the annual number of cervical cancer, nor any evidence that it has occurred at all. Until you do, you only be reminded to provide real citations, or just ignored.

    Like

  204. novalox
    August 28, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    @lee

    Strike 1

    Like

  205. dingo199
    August 29, 2013 at 7:32 am

    lee :Hahahaha!……… Kaz – you really are beating your head against a brick wall because, unfortunately, these people are coming across as truly thick and blinkered and apparently truly believe it’s O.K. for a certain number of people to die or to be permanently physically or neurologically damaged by a vaccine.

    Lee, I doubt Kaz will sustain any injury that could reduce her cognition significantly from its current baseline, so she’s safe on that one.

    Actually, I do think it is OK for someone to run the risk of injury or death, but only when the benefit of the action is greater than the risk of harm.

    Take Cervical cancer. There are 4000 deaths annually from it in the US. 90% of these are due to HPV, and Gardasil would prevent 70% of those. So each year it will prevent about 2500 really unpleasant deaths in women. Yet vaccinating with HPV vaccine would mean a mere handful of women would run the risk of vaccine damage. At present, none of the reputed cases of neurological damage have been verified, never mind confirmed, but even if the vaccine did cause, say, one death each year, then that has to be weighed against the 2500 lives it saves.

    Math clearly isn’t one of your strong points; logic and rational thinking definitely not.

    Like

  206. Kyjay
    August 31, 2013 at 5:13 am

    You’re a class act Dingo. Could you be any more low or insensitive?

    Like

  207. August 31, 2013 at 6:39 am

    @Kyjay – actually, you seem to the one that has been incredibly insensitive to the positive aspects of the HPV vaccine & the number of women that will now not have to suffer from Cervical Cancer due to its use…..

    Like

  208. August 31, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Kyjay, so how sensitive were lee’s comments? Do you think calling us “truly thick and blinkered” is okay dokay when no real evidence was actually offered? Is claiming everyone is corrupt without any real evidence also a sensitive view of sience?.

    By the way, where is that evidence that the HPV vaccine causes the same or more injury than what is outlined in the following quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Because how can you can claim we are “truly thick and blinkered and apparently truly believe it’s O.K. for a certain number of people to die or to be permanently physically or neurologically damaged by a vaccine”, when you ignore the damage caused by the HPV viruses?

    Like

  209. Kyjay
    August 31, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    I was referring to Dingos comments about Kaz – a mother whose child suffered a very severe reaction to this vaccine.

    Like

  210. Gray Falcon
    August 31, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Kyjay- Since when did “sensitive” mean “agreeing with anything I say, no matter how unconscionable”?

    Like

  211. August 31, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    Kyjay, how were we to know that since Dingo’s last comment was directed to lee?

    And he was questioning Kaz’s logic in that treating a cancer is preferable to preventing 70% of the causes to that cancer. Would you also argue that it is okay stay in the sun a long time and get sunburns because skin cancer is treatable? Or would you prefer to prevent it?

    Like

  212. September 1, 2013 at 7:47 am

    @Chris – I believe it also addressed the basic Science education fail on display as well, not understanding the basics behind the differences between compounds and elements…..

    Like

  213. Karen
    September 1, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Lawrence,
    Nearly all people who have ever been sexually active contract the HPV virus at some point, but nearly all of them are able to beat it and get rid of it without it ever causing cancer. That means it’s too simplistic to say the HPV virus causes cancer, therefore you must get the vaccine if you don’t want to face the very small risk of its causing cancer. Better to get the Pap smear regularly and avoid things that greatly increase your risk of cervical cancer like smoking.

    Like

  214. September 1, 2013 at 8:26 pm

    @Karen – did you actually read the statistics above? Why are you so against preventing Cancer? Do you own stock in companies that provide chemotherapy, for example?

    Like

  215. September 1, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    @Karen – please indicate how getting a Pap Smear prevents Cancer…..

    Like

  216. Karen
    September 1, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    I didn’t say it prevented cancer, but it allows early detection when the lesion can usually be completely taken off. There are many types of HPV which can cause cancer, but which are not included in the vaccine. Are you losing sleep over those? I’d rather avoid side effects from the vaccine and get natural immunity wherever I can.

    Like

  217. September 1, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    Karen: “avoid things that greatly increase your risk of cervical cancer like smoking.”

    How about totally avoiding having sex? How well does that work? Also, how is treating a cancer better than preventing it?

    Karen, now exactly how does the HPV vaccine cause equivalent harm compared to these outcomes from the actual virus (cut and pasted from the above article):

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Just post the PubMed indexed study showing the vaccine causes as much harm. Thank you.

    Like

  218. September 1, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    Karen: “There are many types of HPV which can cause cancer, but which are not included in the vaccine.”

    So how is 0% protection from any of the HPV viruses better than protection from 70% of the cancer causing viruses? Again, what side effects from the vaccine are worse than the various cancers? (see above quote).

    Like

  219. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 3:30 am

    Let me think for a minute ….do I want to get a Gardasil vaccine? If I already have the HPV types included in vaccine, vaccine is useless. If I have a type that isn’t in the vaccine – again, useless. Will it work for me, the individual? Anyone’s guess. Do I have a severe allergy to any of the ingredients in the vaccine? Who knows until it’s too late. Could I fall into the category of those who develop cervical cancer from a cause other than HPV? Who knows.

    Various governments concede that the vast majority of HPV clears by itself, and that the vast majority (3 out of 4) of cervical cancer cases occur in those who have never had a Pap smear, or haven’t had a Pap smear in the last 5 years. And variously give the figure of 90-96% of cervical cancer being prevented by Pap smears. I guess that’s what happens when a test is designed to pick up pre-cancerous changes. That test would be the equivalent of wearing a hat and sunset so as to safely enjoy the sun. Gardasil vaccine would be the equivalent having your skin removed just in case you might get skin cancer.

    Dr Diane Harper: “The current postmarketing commitment between Merck and the FDA is to recognize a rate of serious adverse events that exceeds 2 cases in every 10,000 women in a cohort of 44,000 women who have received all three doses of Gardasil. Although autoimmune neurologic sequelae have occurred after Gardasil administration, regulatory authorities are not required to evaluate these reactions, such as Guillain-Barré syndrome, because the frequency is lower than the agreed-upon threshold. Nevertheless, adverse events could be life threatening to some girls.

    Any risk of death—even if it is lower than the agreed-upon threshold—should be presented to women as a possible risk of vaccination with Gardasil. In the United States, the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.”

    Like

  220. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 3:32 am

    Dr Harper again: “If women were to choose both HPV vaccination and continued Pap screening, the rate of cervical cancer still would not decline from its current level of 8 cases for every 100,000 women.”

    Like

  221. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 3:40 am

    “Compare the HPV vaccine, which has probable benefit but also the potential for serious adverse events, including demyelinating diseases that cause blindness, paralysis, and death in a small number of recipients.”

    Yes, I think I will continue to get my Pap smear every two years, continue not smoking and continue keeping at a healthy weight.

    It seems to be a far better option than risking something like this:

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/24/national/victims-hit-cervical-cancer-vaccines/#.Uhl4HBs3DZx

    Like

  222. Kaz
    September 2, 2013 at 3:48 am

    Chris I never mentioned smoking. Where did I say that?
    At the end of the day I can only warn people about what happened to my daughter. If you don’t wish to heed this advice then be it at your own peril. The choice is yours. Most cervical cancers are in the over 50’s, women who haven’t had regular pap smears. If you want to look at the population of the girls being vaccinated and the life of the vaccine. It won’t help any of these girls when they are over 50 because it will no longer be effective. Seeing as you love using analogies (such as uncooked chicken) , Here is my advice to you – to prevent yourself getting a mosquito bite , I am sure you would spray yourself with DDT. But hey, at least you didn’t get bitten. And you ask about side effects, you only have to go the Adverse drug Reactions Register (TGA in Australia) to see the results of Gardasil. It really is a dangerous injection and well documented as so.

    Like

  223. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 4:21 am

    I’m amused by “sunset” – I mean “sunscreen” haha!

    Like

  224. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 4:29 am

    I should also have mentioned that if I made the choice to have a vaccine, I would be putting myself at risk of those adverse events every 5 years as boosters are required throughout life. For a cancer that can take years to develop? Ummmm, no thanks.

    Like

  225. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 5:15 am

    Lee, your ridiculous analogy about skin cancer and cervical cancer is laughable.

    90-96% of cervical cancer [is] being prevented by Pap smears. I guess that’s what happens when a test is designed to pick up pre-cancerous changes. That test would be the equivalent of wearing a hat and sunset so as to safely enjoy the sun. Gardasil vaccine would be the equivalent having your skin removed just in case you might get skin cancer.

    The risk activity for one form of cancer is sunbathing, for the other it is having sex. It is possible to do both fairly safely, and we can all alter our activity to reduce the risks of each.

    The skin cancer equivalent of the Pap smear in your analogy is the like the strategy of having a dermatologist excise all your skin moles every couple of years in the hope of catching one before it turns into melanoma. That might well pick up “90%” of lesions that would become malignant, but does that sound a sensible or practical policy??? We already know many women miss out on smears for many different reasons, and that smears are not always effective. Gardasil provides the skin cancer equivalent of a highly efficient sunscreen – it totally prevents the damage in the first place, rather than waiting until the damage has started – a much more effective way of preventing the cancer since you never acquire the oncogenic strains of HPV in the first place. And you don’t have to use Gardasil every time you have sex (like you would need sunscreen every single time you sunbathe) – you use it just 3 times at the start, and then you are probably protected for the rest of your sexually active life. Its like having a “skin cancer” vaccine before you ever get near the sun, and you never need another one.

    Of course getting Gardasil after you have caught the viruses is pretty useless. That’s shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. That is why the vaccine is given to adolescents before they start having sex, and not when they are in their 20s or 30s…Doh! I doubt it would do you any good, as you correctly say (about the only correct thing you have said btw).

    Like

  226. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 5:32 am

    lee :Dr Harper again: “If women were to choose both HPV vaccination and continued Pap screening, the rate of cervical cancer still would not decline from its current level of 8 cases for every 100,000 women.”

    WTG with the cherry-picked, selective quiotations there Lee!! Brilliant antivaccine propaganda job, congratulations!

    Perhaps you could also explain these statements from Dr Harper, made at the same round table discussion?

    But the Pap smear is not perfect; there is a 30% false-negative rate among women who develop cervical cancer, and a large false-positive rate that involves referral to colposcopy for minimally abnormal cytology reports. And when CIN 2+ disease is detected, treatment is not without risk. Surgery increases the risk of reproductive morbidity in future pregnancies. Having protection against this outcome could be tremendously valuable for some women.

    Like

  227. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 5:37 am

    So just to think on this one minute… Lee advises Pap smears only.
    Does he/she consider counselling and informing women of the risks? Do they know that 30% of the time smears will miss cancer/precancerous changes? Do they know that around 50% of the time they will wrongly pick up atypical changes that require women to have their cervix lasered or removed, when there was no cancer in the first place, and that this might permanently damage their fertility?

    The HPV vaccine is looking more and more attractive all the time.

    Like

  228. Kaz
    September 2, 2013 at 7:10 am

    It is such an “attractive” vaccine. Tell that to my daughter and all the other girls imjured by this vaccine.

    Like

  229. Kaz
    September 2, 2013 at 7:11 am

    *injured (typo)

    Like

  230. September 2, 2013 at 7:21 am

    @lee – the Dr. Harper quotations have already been discussed & the common myths debunked here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/16/yet-another-antivaccine-meme-rises-from-the-grave-again-no-diane-harper-doesnt-hate-gardasil/

    @Kaz – let’s see some real “documented” evidence…..

    Like

  231. September 2, 2013 at 8:24 am

    @Kaz – your assertions also stray into the “Perfect World & Nirvana” Fallacies as well…because the vaccine isn’t 100% perfect, we should not use it?

    By your thought process, we shouldn’t use seat belts, or utilize any medical interventions whatsoever, because none of them are “perfect.”

    Again, you fail to propose any evidence at all to support your position & only offer hollow fallacies instead.

    Like

  232. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 10:01 am

    dingo – ah, sigh – it’s meant to be a laughable analogy – that’s the point of it. It is to that extent and beyond that I find the Gardasil vaccine to be laughable. Even you can see the futility in giving this vaccine to women. Yet, they are still being given the vaccine, aren’t they.”That’s shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted”. Oh, so let me get this straight – it’s not O.K. for a fertility problem to perhaps be caused due to a dodgy Pap smear, but it’s O.K. to become infertile after a vaccine. Right.

    Lawrence – those quotes are not myths and dingo well knows it.

    http://www.obgmanagement.com/topic-collections/oncology/article/2-hpv-vaccines-7-questions-that-you-need-answered/44c503829a06261a91caec849821fcee.html

    You can go through it and pull it apart all you like, but it won’t change the quote:

    “In the United States, the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination”.

    You said this to kaz “By your thought process, we shouldn’t use seat belts, or utilize any medical interventions whatsoever, because none of them are “perfect.” ” Really, Lawrence. Why didn’t you take it a bit further into babyland and say “You don’t want Gardasil, so now I’m going to take my marbles and go home”. In fact, it’s very obvious that kaz’s thought process is along the lines of “This vaccine nearly killed my daughter and I’m going to let others know so they can make an informed choice”. In fact, only those who have seen a reaction can have any idea of what they are talking about in this regard. For anyone else it’s only statistics and game-playing. And people being crippled from a vaccine? Only numbers. Ask the parents of those Japanese girls what they think about numbers.

    Like

  233. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 11:04 am

    I have pointed out your logic fails previously, Lee.
    To recap:

    1. Gardasil does not cause infertility. There was a report of a girl who developed ovarian failure in adolescence was presented as a badly written case report, but there was absolutely nothing to indicate this was due to the Gardasil she had received some months earlier, anymore that it was due to her new iPhone, her trip to San Fransisco on a bus in January, or the shower she took after hockey practise. However, the fertility problems linked with treatment of cervical lesions are very well documented, and we know that Gardasil vaccine reduces the necessity for these interventions by around 50%, as well as preventing the eventual cancers that will arise. Again, do the Math: 2500 deaths prevented, 10,000 cancer cases prevented each year with Gardasil versus one almost certainly unrelated case of ovarian failure in what, 5 years. Wake up man.

    2. As has been pointed out, Kaz and you are suffering from a bad case of the Nirvana complex – if the vaccine isn’t 100% perfect, then you call it useless. What Lawrence said holds true. I am afraid that it is you who are playing with numbers, not us. Citing vanishingly rare problems as reasons to not give life-saving medical products that save thousands of lives every year is stupid. I am sorry for anyone whose child gets a reaction, but then I am sorry if a child gets allergy to the penicillin their child needs to treat their meningitis. But I don’t just give up and decide nobody should treat meningitis ever again, which is what you and Kaz seem to be promoting.

    3. PS: You haven’t told us yet how your homeopathy treatment for the child with meningitis is coming along, seeing how you have said you distrust everything pharma have produced. Where do I send the flowers?

    Like

  234. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 11:09 am

    Kaz :It is such an “attractive” vaccine. Tell that to my daughter and all the other girls imjured by this vaccine.

    Kaz, sorry again if your daughter suffered a reaction. But the vaccine is the best option to help prevent cervical cancer, which causes thousands of deaths each year.
    The vaccine is “attractive” in the same way that antibiotics are attractive options for treating infections, or seatbelts and airbags are an attractive option to reduce MVA fatalities.
    Just because exceptionally someone might react to penicillin, or be hurt by their airbag that doesn’t stop them being attractive options for what they do.

    Like

  235. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 11:20 am

    lee :Lawrence – those quotes are not myths and dingo well knows it.
    http://www.obgmanagement.com/topic-collections/oncology/article/2-hpv-vaccines-7-questions-that-you-need-answered/44c503829a06261a91caec849821fcee.html

    Those are individual’s comments/opinions. How about the conclusions, where the members came to consensus?

    For practice, take-home points on HPV vaccination

    Both the bivalent and quadrivalent vaccines appear to be excellent products. Besides protecting against the main oncogenic strains of human papillomavirus (HPV) (types 16 and 18 for both vaccines, and the genital-wart-associated strains 6 and 11 for the quadrivalent vaccine), both Cervarix and Gardasil offer some degree of cross-protection against additional HPV strains.
    Vaccination of the sexually naïve patient with either vaccine provides significant protection against cervical intraepithelial neoplasia 2 (CIN 2) or worse.
    HPV vaccination is expected to reduce the rate of abnormal Pap tests and the need for common excisional treatments for cervical dysplasia in vaccinated women. It will do the same in the population as a whole if rates of vaccination are sufficient to provide “herd” immunity

    …and we know from the latest research in Australia that the vaccines do provide herd immunity.

    Like

  236. September 2, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Kaz: “Chris I never mentioned smoking. Where did I say that?”

    You didn’t. My quote is ‘Karen: “avoid things that greatly increase your risk of cervical cancer like smoking.”’

    i am quoting “Karen” in comment #213. Are you being a forgetful sock puppet?

    “At the end of the day I can only warn people about what happened to my daughter.”

    If you are claiming that I quoted you mentioning smoking, then why should we believe your story? Are you also “lee”? (who I ignore because he is just ridiculous)

    “Most cervical cancers are in the over 50′s, women who haven’t had regular pap smears.”

    Citation needed. In most industrialized countries most women with health insurance (especially in one with a health service like Australia) get annual exams with a Pap smear every couple of years starting in their twenties.

    The Pap smear does not prevent cancer! It only detects it. The HPV vaccine prevents up to 70% of the causes of certain cancers. You have yet to tell us why treating a cancer is better than preventing it.

    Your DDT analogy was silly. especially since I spent a good part of my youth in the Panama Canal Zone where Dr. William Gorgas did rid the entire area of mosquitoes. Mine about sunburn is better. Do you think getting sunburns are okay since many skin cancers are treatable by surgery? (by the way, my father does get little skin cancers removed every few years since he was a blond guy in the tropics before sunscreen).

    “Tell that to my daughter and all the other girls imjured by this vaccine.”

    How many are there? Were they all investigated? Were the injuries actually caused by something else? Please come up with the PubMed indexed study showing the harm from the vaccine is equivalent to the following quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  237. September 2, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    @Chris – and now that the research has been done, we now know that DDT wasn’t the “horrible chemical nightmare” that it was portrayed as – and tens of thousands of people have died of malaria as a result (if not more).

    Like

  238. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    Correct Lawrence, the anti”toxin” activists don’t care if thousands died from malaria, as long as not a single person underwent the risk of exposure to an evil toxin like DDT, even if it wasn’t so evil after all.

    Like

  239. Karen
    September 2, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    But the whole point of Silent Spring was that if DDT kills all the birds and insects, then not only will our food production suffer, but we will soon follow with cancer etc. You guys don’t care about the environment?
    I thought Lee’s analogy was clever and on-the-mark. And Dingo, women have to keep getting Pap smears anyway, regardless of whether they’ve gotten the expensive, dangerous, untried HPV vaccine, if they want to learn of dangerous cervical lesions in time to treat them. No one knows yet if the vaccine will really prevent cancer thirty or forty years from now.
    I don’t think Kaz and Lee have advocated driving without seatbelts, but have only said that people should be aware of both the risks and dangers of both the vaccine and the disease(s) before getting the shot, and should get regular Pap smears unless they are in a permanent monagamous relationship. In that case they can get a DNA test to see if they have HPV, and if they don’t, they can stop worrying about it. I agree that (in the US) the VAERS has a lot of scary reports of serious, even fatal, reactions to the HPV vaccine.

    Like

  240. Lawrence
    September 2, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    @karen – except that follow up research into the environmental effects of DDT found no such thing and hundreds of thousands have suffered because of the lack of an effective means to control Mosquitos and malaria.

    As to the VAERs reports, per the information provided about the actual tracking of adverse events show these “scary” stories to be untrue.

    Like

  241. novalox
    September 2, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    @lee

    I guess since lee hasn’t produced any actual scientific evidence for her biases, we can all assume that whatever lee says here is a lie and should be treated as so.

    So thanks lee for admitting that you do not have any evidence for your views.

    Like

  242. September 2, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    The problem with DDT was the misuse, which caused mosquitoes to evolve resistance. If you read the article I posted, it had not even been invented when Gorgas eliminated mosquitoes from the Panama Isthmus. Also, it was silly to suggest spreading on oneself to prevent mosquito bites. Because it would not work.

    The comparison of the whatever “toxins” are in a vaccine to an insecticide is like comparing apples to buffalo. It was a silly analogy. Plus the HPV vaccine works to prevent an infection that causes up to 70% of certain cancers.

    Now back to this:
    Karen: “avoid things that greatly increase your risk of cervical cancer like smoking.”

    Actually, citation needed. Plus the citations that I have asked for repeatedly that are PubMed indexed studies showing harm from the vaccine that is equivalent to the virus. Plus why it is better to treat a certain cancer instead of preventing the cause for about 70% of its cause.

    Karen and Kaz, are you the same person? If so, chose one name and stick to it, and do not claim you did not say something when you did.

    Like

  243. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    Karen :

    I thought Lee’s analogy was clever and on-the-mark. And Dingo, women have to keep getting Pap smears anyway, regardless of whether they’ve gotten the expensive, dangerous, untried HPV vaccine, if they want to learn of dangerous cervical lesions in time to treat them. No one knows yet if the vaccine will really prevent cancer thirty or forty years from now.

    But Lee’s analogy was completely wrong –
    The “pap smear” equivalent wrt to skin cancer would be for people to get regular 2 year surveillance of all skin lesions with surgical scraping of all moles, followed by excision of all vaguely suspicious ones, to be continued for life.
    And what do we conclude when this bizarre ritual is carried out, but still doesn’t work in 30% of those who use it (as we know Pap smears fail to find 30% of cervical cancer)?

    The “vaccine” equivalent is a sunscreen application applied 3 times when someone is young which then prevents skin cancer with no need for re-application, possibly never. This method would use skin mole surveillance too as backup, but would drastically cut the number of moles needed to be removed, as well as reducing the prevalence of abnormal ones.

    No contest, in my book.

    PS, HPV Vaccine is hardly “untried”.
    Have you even bothered to read any of the article above, or the comments, or the references? How did you miss all the evidence presented?

    Like

  244. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    Kaz, in the reading material that was sent home from school about Gardasil vaccination, were you given the information you needed to make an informed decision? e.g. risk of x,y z versus (best case scenario) 10% reduction in abnormal Pap smear? I realise that you went ahead and had the shots done at the doctor instead of school – were you given such information by the doctor? I’m curious as to what the process was.

    Karen – you are spot on – yes, women have to keep on getting Pap smears, regardless. And as they can pick up precancerous changes in cells, a Pap smear can be considered a preventative measure. And as 3 out of 4 cases of cervical cancer are in those who have never had a Pap smear, or haven’t had one in the previous 5 years, it’s an important measure. And the best measure we have.”No one knows yet if the vaccine will really prevent cancer thirty or forty years from now”. Completely agree. And just as that is unknown, so are the long-term effects of the vaccine.

    Novalox – I said “Let me think for a minute ….do I want to get a Gardasil vaccine? If I already have the HPV types included in vaccine, vaccine is useless. If I have a type that isn’t in the vaccine – again, useless. Will it work for me, the individual? Anyone’s guess. Do I have a severe allergy to any of the ingredients in the vaccine? Who knows until it’s too late. Could I fall into the category of those who develop cervical cancer from a cause other than HPV? Who knows.” I didn’t realise that one needs to provide scientific evidence for basic common sense.

    I leave the dishonesty to the CDC and FDA, as previously mentioned

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/health/policy/18cdc.html?_r=5&

    Chris – you seem to have gone now from an obsession with “quacks, frauds and shysters” to a mythical child with meningitis. Who knows what that’s about.

    Like

  245. September 2, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    @lee – so, once again, no evidence, but baseless assertions – you’ve become quite humorous….

    Like

  246. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    What are the baseless assertions in that comment, Lawrence?

    Like

  247. lee
    September 2, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    By the way, kaz, I have since found the info that you were likely provided with

    http://www.csp.nsw.gov.au/media/40593/nsw_health_hpv_factsheet.pdf

    Like

  248. September 2, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    lee:

    Chris – you seem to have gone now from an obsession with “quacks, frauds and shysters” to a mythical child with meningitis. Who knows what that’s about.

    Huh? I have never typed the word “meningitis” in this thread. All the more reason your silliness should be ignored.

    By the way, make stuff up about others may be in violation of this. Particularly these two bits:

    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;

    Like

  249. novalox
    September 3, 2013 at 1:51 am

    @lee

    Again, thank you for admitting that you have nothing and that the CDC’s information is more trustworthy than you conspiracy-theory laden rants.

    Again, why should we listen to a proven liar like you when you failed to put up any evidence?

    @kyjay

    Ah yes, thanks for admitting that you are a hypocrite and a liar, since all you have done is post lies, ad hominems, and pseudoscience.

    Again, where is your proof. We can assume that if you don’t post any actual scientific proof within 3 posts, that you have nothing to offer in terms of rational conversation.

    Like

  250. lee
    September 3, 2013 at 2:01 am

    Chris, that’s really a bit rich coming from a person who recently accused me of being some man I’ve never heard of. And I can see you’ve been up to it again – accusing Kaz of not only being the other Karen, but of being me as well.

    Anyone can see that Kaz made a simple mistake, thinking she’d been addressed by her proper name, when you actually were addressing the other Karen. It’s an easy mistake for anyone to make. And, as for my mistake, I apologise for thinking it was you who had mentioned some mythical child with meningitis. All credit for that obsession should have gone to dingo.

    Like

  251. lee
    September 3, 2013 at 2:03 am

    Evidence of what, novalox?

    Like

  252. September 3, 2013 at 2:06 am

    Okay, again, please post the verifiable evidence that the HPV vaccine causes more injury than noted in this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  253. lee
    September 3, 2013 at 2:10 am

    I believe, novalax, that based on what Chris has mentioned above regarding personal attacks, that you are in violation by calling me a liar.

    Like

  254. September 3, 2013 at 2:12 am

    lee: “accusing Kaz of not only being the other Karen, but of being me as well.”

    She accused me of claiming that she mentioned smoking. I obviously did not accuse her, but the person who posted Comment #213. If you have any issues with the subject, bring it up to her or her sock puppets.

    Like

  255. dingo199
    September 3, 2013 at 4:02 am

    Yes Lee, it was me who mentioned meningitis. I reckon it’s quite legitimate to ask your views on the medical treatment of other conditions, seeing how you have attested on a couple of occasions how you completely distrust organisations like CDC,FDA etc, and especially everything to do with Pharma companies. You extended this loathing to claim their products are not to be trusted.

    So I did wonder whether you would deign to allow their products (eg antibiotics) to be used to treat say a child of yours who had meningitis. Well…..?

    Like

  256. Kyjay
    September 3, 2013 at 5:53 am

    Ok, so obviously none of us are going to convince anyone on this thread to change their point of view on this matter. All anyone can do is weigh up the evidence for themselves and do what is right for them. In order to do this they need to be made aware of All the risks involved, no matter how small that risk may seem, it is our right to know it before making such decisions. Just because I don’t agree with this vaccine doesn’t make me a sock puppet for anyone – I’m capable of making my own mind up thanks.
    See ya

    Like

  257. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 6:42 am

    “On June 14, the Japanese Health Ministry issued a nationwide notice that the so-called ‘cervical cancer’ vaccinations should not be recommended for girls aged 12 to 16. This precautionary move followed reports of 1,968 cases of possible adverse effects including body pain, numbness and paralysis.

    The Japanese government’s subsidy program of either Gardasil or Cervarix, the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) vaccines, which are aimed at reducing cervical cancer, began in 2010 with an estimated 3.28 million girls having now received the vaccinations. A special task force examined 43 cases of widespread pain after HPV vaccinations and concluded that given the timing of symptoms they could not rule out a connection between the adverse events and HPV vaccines. Japanese girls can still receive the vaccination for free, but medical institutions must inform them that the Ministry does not recommend it.

    In April 2007, Australia introduced the Gardasil vaccine to Australian girls aged 12-16 years. This was immediately followed by young women becoming ill with serious side effects. To date, Australia’s database of adverse event notifications (DAEN) has recorded over 1991 suspected side effects following the cervical cancer vaccination. In the U.S. the total number of adverse effects stands now at 30,000, with 138 deaths and 5977 girls and young women whose health never recovered. Due to the lack of mandatory reporting, only between 1 per cent and 10 per cent of adverse reactions are ever recorded, so unfortunately we are really looking at much higher figures.”

    Like

  258. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 6:50 am

    I really feel like I’m in the playground when some here have nothing better in their arguments than play games, make stupid analogies and make a big deal because I happen to have the same name as someone else here. I’m Karen (Kaz) so thought you were referring to me not realising there was another Karen who had added to the debate. So if someone makes a typo do you resort to name calling? Is that the best you’ve got?

    Like

  259. Lawrence
    September 3, 2013 at 8:06 am

    @kaz – funny, as I was about to same thing. Adults use reason, evidence and actual science to base health care decisions on…..you, Lee and others do not act as Adults here, instead relying on”stories” and “heard from a friend who heard the CDC is a conspiracy.”

    Too bad for you that the Science speaks for itself that this vaccine (and others) are safe, effective and saves lives…

    While minor adverse reactions have been confirmed and noted above, the “deaths and serious injuries” have been shown to be fabricated, not related Ro the vaccine and otherwise unsubstantiated.

    Care to prove otherwise, you know, with actual Science or evidence?

    Like

  260. Lawrence
    September 3, 2013 at 8:19 am

    @kaz – a posting from a notorious anti-vaccine and anti-science website (pick one, since your post was up on several” isn’t proof or evidence…..go back to your anti-vax playground…adults are conversing here.

    Like

  261. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Actually Lawrence I haven’t got these figures from “a notorious anti-vaccine website’, you simply googled and found someone else that has used these figures. These figures are from the adverse drug reaction reporting agencies. I have put the link here before. Every Government in every country has to keep a register of adverse drug reactions. There is no disputing these figures. Here is the Australian Government reporting site http://www.tga.gov.au/DAEN/daen-entry.aspx . (I live in Australia) and this is where my daughter’s adverse reactions were reported by the Medical staff that administered it to her. It is also fact that the Japanese Government are no longer recommending the vaccine because of the adverse effects. As for your strange ideas that it was “heard from a friend” my experiences with Gardasil are first hand. As a parent I had to witness a terrifying adverse effect and also as a Registered Nurse I am well aware of the reported and witnessed adverse effects in other children. As I mentioned before my children have been fully vaccinated. My concern is with this particular vaccination. The amount of severe adverse reactions for a drug that has only been used in Australia since 2007 should have alarm bells ringing here , just as it does in Japan and just as it did in India. It is only a matter of time before the drug is banned here too.

    Like

  262. Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2013 at 9:35 am

    @Kaz: Tell me, when you enter DAEN, what is printed in the big green box that appears at the top of the page. Why is it important? What does it say about your argument?

    Like

  263. September 3, 2013 at 9:36 am

    @Kaz – interesting that “word for word” I found your post on several anti-vaccine websites….so I don’t believe you.

    Like

  264. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 10:01 am

    Lawrence, the information does not come from anti-vaccine websites. If it has been used on such websites has nothing to do with the origin. The piece was written by an esteemed Biologist and Professor here in Australia. It is written using actual data reported to the official government body. Whether you “believe” me is not my problem. My opinion is not dependent on your approval. You have not given me any real argument or data, personal experience or medical qualifications, so my opinion of your opinion is that it bears no real validity.
    Gray Falcon , did you actually read past the big green box? Obviously not. All that says is that the Government Agency itself is not responsible for what has been reported by Medical Practitioners. A very normal legality. It is the official adverse drug reporting site (and you know this), you are just clutching at straws because you have very little else you can pick on. If you can work out how to go beyond the green box you will see each adverse reaction listed and it will tell you if it was directly linked to Gardasil or if there were other drugs given at the same time.

    Like

  265. September 3, 2013 at 10:42 am

    @Kaz – how about the actual evidence to support that statement, because unsubstantiated reports from a passive reporting system are meaningless without the Science to back them up.

    Like

  266. September 3, 2013 at 10:48 am

    Okay, again, please post the verifiable evidence that the HPV vaccine causes more injury than noted in this quote from the above article. And by verified we do not mean self selected reports that have not been investigated, just post the PubMed indexed showing the HPV vaccine injuries equivalent to:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  267. novalox
    September 3, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    @lee

    Again, thanks for admitting that you are a liar and that Chris, Lawrence, and the rest of the regulars are telling the truth.

    Again, you’ve proven yourself a liar again and again, with your constant refusal to post actual scientific evidence and reliance on base conspiracy theory.

    So why should anyone believe a word that you say?

    Like

  268. Crystal
    September 3, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Lee, novalox isn’t all there. Don’t worry about her, she has a long history of acting like this.

    Like

  269. Utpal Patel
    September 3, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    novalox

    We appreciate you admitting that you have nothing and for admitting you are nothing but a bully. And thank you for admitting that Lee is telling the truth.

    Again, why should we listen to a proven liar like you when you have failed to put up any evidence?

    3rd strike.

    Like

  270. Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    It appears “Crystal” and “Utpal” are trying to play “Mirror chess”, copying their opponent’s moves without bothering to understand them. This usually results in the opponent mating them in three turns. Their statements fall flat because the article they are commenting on already presented the evidence they’re asking for.

    Like

  271. September 3, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    Wow – the sock-puppets are getting a bit desperate today…..

    Like

  272. September 3, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    And the sock puppets come out.

    Okay, please provide the verified evidence that the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus, that it exceeds the following from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Oh, and Kaz said:

    It is also fact that the Japanese Government are no longer recommending the vaccine because of the adverse effects.

    Japan is not the best example for vaccine versus disease experience. Read the third page of Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story, where it says after an antivaccine campaign Japan delayed vaccines until two years, only after over forty babies died from pertussis did they realize that was a bad idea. And more recently we have this paper about what happened after a decision on measles, Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan, which says:

    According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    So, seriously, Kaz, Karen, and other sock puppets, come up with the PubMed indexed study showing the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus.

    Like

  273. September 3, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    @Chris – I’d be happy with any real proof that the vaccine is in any way related to the “horror stories” related by the various anti-vax puppets….

    Like

  274. September 3, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    Well, I would like that too. I just get annoyed at the “Look at what Japan did!”, without knowing that their government bending over backwards to appease the scaremongers has literally been deadly.

    Like

  275. September 3, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    @Chris – that is was also removed from official “recommendations” but that the Government is still offering it for free, seems to me that the government is playing both sides…..

    Like

  276. novalox
    September 3, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    @crystal, utpal patel

    Again, thank you sockies for admitting that you have no argument, you have no argument, and that you have to resort to childish insults.

    I take it as a honor that you cannot come up with a single coherent argument and have to resort to such juvenile tactics

    So, please keep showing the world how crazy and intellectually bankrupt the anti-vaxxers are. I’ll be waiting, just to see what more childish and immature tactics you can come up with.

    At least you can provide me with a few cheap laughs.

    Like

  277. dingo199
    September 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    @Antivaccine sockpuppets….. When someone cries out “See what Japan did! – Let’s do the same!” with respect to catastrophic decisions about vaccination policy, I think of the Family guy episode where the Griffins wake up one day and find a tanker outside their house.
    “Oooh, It says ‘TOXIC WASTE’ ” says Marge.
    “I wonder what’s in it?” says Peter. “Let’s see!”

    God forbid that the rational, critically thinking world should emulate Japan’s crazy example on vaccines. As Chris says, they have already killed hundreds of their citizens through their stupidity.

    Like

  278. September 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    As I pointed out from the literature, the Japanese Government is still providing the Vaccine for free to those that want it…..seems to be a bit different than “banning” it.

    As for Australia, they seem to be on an anti-quack kick right now, I don’t see them going against the mountain of Science supporting the HPV Vaccine…..certainly they are more rational than a good number of Americans right now.

    Like

  279. Utpal Patel
    September 3, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    @novalox

    Again, thank you for admitting that you have no argument, you have no argument, and that you have to resort to childish insults.

    I take it as a honor that you cannot come up with a single coherent argument and have to resort to such juvenile tactics

    So, please keep showing the world how crazy and intellectually bankrupt you are. I’ll be waiting, just to see what more childish and immature tactics you can come up with.

    At least you can provide us with a few cheap laughs.

    Like

  280. September 3, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    And yet Kaz talks about “playground insults…..”

    Like

  281. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 8:05 pm

    It is interesting that Japan no longer recommends the HPV vaccine and has the 3rd highest average IQ in the world (105) compared to the USA which has the 19th highest IQ in the world.(98)
    http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-with-the-highest-lowest-average-iq/

    @ Crystal – “Lee, novalox isn’t all there. Don’t worry about her, she has a long history of acting like this.” – I thought the same Crystal. Novalox has had nothing to say of any merit.

    @Uptal Patel – You are spot on with your comments about the bullies here. It says a lot about their character and the validity of their arguments.

    Chris, the figures for adverse effects with HPV are available to all that wish to see them and I have given you the link twice now. The figures for HPV are way lower in the age group being vaccinated than the adverse reactions from Gardasil. It is pointless quoting figures of mature age women who have died from cervical cancer as the vaccine only has a life of approximately 5 years. The women you quote are mostly over 50’s who have not had regular pap smears. The vaccine would not apply to them anyway.

    In Australia the thousands of girls who have had serious adverse effects far outweighs the girls in this age group with cervical cancer.

    Like

  282. novalox
    September 3, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    @utpal patel

    Again, thank you so much for attempting to try to insult me with your childish antics and admitting that you have no argument.

    I take it that your reliance on sockpuppets to pathetically try to insult me is amusing, so please keep it up and show how much the anti-vax side has to rely on cheap ad homs to attempt to make an argument.

    Please do try harder on the insults. I do find it amusing, but you should try to make something more original, dearie.

    @kaz

    Nice try on the attempted insult, but you have constantly been asked for evidence to support your point of view and have so far provided little. Your siding with obvious trolls does say a lot about your point of view.

    You also do know that correlation does not equal causation, right? Since there are a lot of factors that go into IQ, which vaccines do not play any part of.

    Again, if you want to try to insult me, go ahead, and I’ll be waiting to see what silly little ones you can come up with.

    Like

  283. September 3, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    Kaz: “Chris, the figures for adverse effects with HPV are available to all that wish to see them and I have given you the link twice now.”

    No, you gave a link that is raw self selected survey data, that says when you click on it:

    An adverse event report does not mean that the medicine is the cause of the adverse event.

    Do you not understand what that means? I have been asking for verified data. There are many dictionary sites on the Internet, go look up what the word means. Plus I have asked for a PubMed indexed study. Do you know that that means, here is a hint: http://www.pubmed.gov. If you wish you might want to check up what the word “index” means.

    I sincerely doubt you understand the Intelligence Quotient number means, and why the mean being a 100, that five points above or below does not really mean anything, as it is no where near the standard deviation on either side. Along with a vocabulary lesson, do I also need to give you a basic statistics lesson?

    I would say that idiotic decisions made by the Japanese government has nothing to do with the intelligence of the general population. It does say that their politicians tend to listen to special interest groups rather than their scientists. Their scientists have several PubMed indexed papers explaining how dangerous the government policies have been (like the paper on measles I gave you, where several children died from measles).

    Like

  284. Kaz
    September 3, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    @Novalox, you once again have nothing intelligent to say. I would rather debate here with others that at least give me some intelligent debate, regardless of what “side’ they are on.
    Also, I am an individual with individual views. The sock puppet thing is getting very old and just shows you to be very immature. I do not have the same views exactly as anyone here on either side of the debate. I am my own person, standing in my own corner and probably the only person here who objects to one vaccination in particular. Gardasil. I could hardly be called an anti-vaxer when my children have been fully vaccinated against everything except Gardasil.
    I don’t need to insult you , you are doing a pretty good job of insulting yourself.

    Like

  285. novalox
    September 3, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    @kaz

    Again, if you have any actual evidence, please present it, since you continually do not present any actual scientific evidence. Otherwise, we can all assume that you don’t have any evidence to back up your statements.

    As they say, extraordinary comments require extraordinary proof, and you have so far failed to provide any proof.

    You can keep trying to insult me with your little childish and snide comments, but really, all you have done is make yourself look foolish.

    But please do keep trying. I do so much relish you trying to attempt to insult me instead of actually addressing the questions asked of you.

    Like

  286. September 3, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    Kaz, please post the PubMed indexed study showing verified injuries from the HPV vaccine exceed the effects of the virus as noted in this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Remember that raw self selected reports have not been verified and are therefore not the information I want. Thank you.

    Like

  287. lee
    September 3, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    Crystal, thank you, yes. I did suspect as much. I suspect you might be spot on. I’m not quite sure what that individual has her knickers in a big twist about, but perhaps because I mentioned that I wouldn’t wish to use Gardasil myself due to the various reasons I mentioned. Or perhaps because I mentioned above that anywhere between 90-96% (depending on info source) of cervical cancer can be prevented due to Pap smears. Pap smear info doesn’t seem to go well for some reason, even though everyone still has to have them, regardless. Maybe that’s what the knicker-twisting is about. I actually have no idea.

    http://www.health.gov.au/internet/screening/publishing.nsf/Content/942BEE0945BE8A49CA2574EB007F73B2/$File/guide-improve.pdf

    http://www.cancerinstitute.org.au/media/145705/e11-20231_cervical_campaign_background_faq.pdf

    http://www.csp.nsw.gov.au/why-have-a-pap-test/do-i-need-a-pap-test

    Like

  288. Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    By the way, Kaz, here’s the text from the green box:

    An adverse event report does not mean that the medicine is the cause of the adverse event.
    If you are experiencing an adverse event, or think you may be experiencing one, please seek advice from a health professional as soon as possible.
    The TGA strongly advises people taking prescription medicines not to change their medication regime without prior consultation with a health professional.

    Nothing like what you claimed it said. Tell me, Kaz, why are you lying to me?

    Like

  289. lee
    September 3, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    Kaz, you might be interested in looking at this little chart

    http://www.csp.nsw.gov.au/why-have-a-pap-test/what-causes-cervical-cancer

    Like

  290. Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2013 at 11:28 pm

    lee: Why is treatment preferable to prevention in your mind? Do you hate people or something?

    Like

  291. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 1:04 am

    Thanks Lee for the link.
    Chris, you are obviously from the USA as you seem to think only an American site is worth its weight. It is well know world wide that the US has the worst Health Care system in the developed world. It is ridiculed in other Westernised societies. In fact my Aunt’s death in the USA caused by a brain tumour found post mortem was her insurance companies refusal to pay for “costly” but necessary scans. And that is someone that was insured. The ones that are uninsured just don’t get treated. So glad I don’t live in the States! A friend of the family who lives in the USA travelled to Canada to get treatment! A disgrace!
    Yet, I quote and give you links to Australian sites that are the actual reporting , government sites and all you say “Is where is the pubmed, , where is the pubmed” You sound like a broken record! F*ck PubMed! The USA isn’t the centre of the world. Maybe you would like to see data from India (where Gardasil was banned) or Japan (Where it is not recommended).

    Like

  292. September 4, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Kaz: “Chris, you are obviously from the USA as you seem to think only an American site is worth its weight.”

    It is obvious you have no clue what the PubMed index is, showing that you have never looked up a scientific medical paper ever.

    Please show where the PubMed index only posts American papers. Again, you need to look up two words in a dictionary: “verified” and “index.”

    Like

  293. September 4, 2013 at 1:41 am

    Kaz, please post the verified peer reviewed research that the injuries from the HPV vaccine are equivalent to this quote from the above article, it helps if it is on the PubMed index (but since that index includes homoepathic journals from Germany, it is not perfect… so all PubMed indexed papers will be scrutinized):

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  294. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Yes Chris, I do know what PubMed is, but it is not the be all and end all. You really have no idea what I have researched , what scientific journals I have used and what trials I have been part of. As a Registered Nurse I see first hand what you have to “look up” . I don’t need to some random with no medical knowledge trying to tell me I what I have seen medically. For your information PubMed papers do acknowledge deaths from Gardasil.

    Like

  295. novalox
    September 4, 2013 at 1:57 am

    @kaz

    Again, why won’t you post any evidence?

    Let’s give you 3 posts to give evidence for your views, otherwise, we can assume that you have no argument and we can discount everything you have said as a lie.

    Of course, you can go with your attempts at insults, like you have directed at Chris, if that makes you feel any better but it won’t bolster your argument at all.

    Like

  296. lee
    September 4, 2013 at 3:31 am

    Chris, unless those figures relate to the age group in question, are specific to only cancer from HPVs addressed in the vaccine, and are specific to (in the case of cervical cancer particularly) cases in which the women have adhered to the Pap smear schedule, it’s hard to see how they can be of relevance to the discussion.

    Like

  297. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 4:14 am

    Lee, I’m getting a bit tired of your logic fails. The vaccine prevents HPV infection,, and evidence is that it works, in that age group, very well. Invasive cancer (the consequence of the HPV infection) takes a long time to develop, so of course we would not expect to see “figures [on cancer] relating to the age group in question”. Give it 10 years.

    To make it simple for you, look at other diseases such as Hep B for example. In some Asian countries, congenitally acquired Hepatitis B is common, and the eventual result may be hepatocellular cancer. This process takes 40 years or more. However, Hepatitis B vaccination in infancy completely prevents the infection, so the risk to those infants of getting liver cancer late in life is zero. But in effect, you are arguing “But infants don’t get liver cancer anyhow, so why vaccinate them?” This question would be totally irrational and quite ridiculous. Yet for HPV you are now asking the same?

    Like

  298. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 4:16 am

    The problem here seems to be that Kaz has a daughter who experienced a reaction following HPV vaccination, and is of the persuasion that because of this and because other people have reported similar reactions that the vaccine should not be used.

    However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the rate of confirmed serious reactions with these vaccines is tiny, and medically verified complications are very rare. There is a problem with passive surveillance such as VAERS – anyone can report anything, which is why it has become polluted with dozens of reports of deaths in vaccine recipients which are clearly unconnected in any causal way (Deaths are recorded from things like car accidents, epilepsy, suicide, underlying cardiac disease etc, and an analysis of the reports from the first 3 years of reactions showed none of the deaths could be medically corroborated as being directly due to the vaccine)

    The question is: “Does the risk associated with vaccination outweigh the benefit?” So we know risks are miniscule (but not zero, admittedly), but the benefits seems huge. We already know that vaccination, even though it has been slow to be taken up by most, has dramatically cut the incidence of HPV lesions and warts in both young women and men (ie through herd immunity), and has dramatically cut the incidence of new cervical lesions (CIN2 and CIN3), which are the direct precursors of invasive cervical cancer.

    Kaz points to the fact that the age group given the vaccine (teenagers primarily) do not get cervical cancer, but that this is a disease which affects women when they are older (40s/50s). But since HPV usually takes 10-20 to manifest as cancer, we would not expect a large reduction in the headline rate of cancer until the vaccination program has been in place for around 10-15 years (…Doh!).

    Kaz suggests the vaccine only lasts 5 years (citations needed) – but that doesn’t seem to be the case from most recent studies, and protection seems to be much longer than that, particularly for the bivalent vaccine (cervarix). This is rather a moot point, since if it were confirmed that vaccine efficacy fades after say 10 years, then what could possibly be wrong with getting a booster at that stage? Answer: nothing.

    There is another element to this – that of the PAP smear, which can help detect lesions early enough for definitive treatment, and which vaccine recipients are encouraged to continue to get, as a fail safe for detecting any early forms of cancer that may be caused by strains of HPV that are not covered by the vaccine. But we know PAP smears on their own are imperfect, with high false negative rates (30%), and high false positive rates (which means unnecessary, painful unnecessary treatments for cancer).

    HPV vaccine will not only help prevent cervical changes and cancer, but also greatly reduce the number of abnormalities picked up on PAP smears, reducing the rate at which treatment for cancer is needed.

    There seem to be no valid reasons not to recommend or get this vaccine. Its benefits vastly outweigh its risks. Of course those against the vaccine have come up with specious “reasons” not to have it, but none of these stand up to cursory scrutiny. Kaz seems to think that the authorities in Japan (who have a terrible history of over-reacting to spurious vaccine scares in the past, resulting in hundreds of thousands of their population suffering measles and whooping cough, with hundreds dying as a result) are reliable medical sources on vaccine matters. I beg to differ, as do most people in the world, including the Japanese population.

    Like

  299. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 4:44 am

    Kaz :Yes Chris, I do know what PubMed is, but it is not the be all and end all. You really have no idea what I have researched , what scientific journals I have used and what trials I have been part of. As a Registered Nurse I see first hand what you have to “look up” . I don’t need to some random with no medical knowledge trying to tell me I what I have seen medically. For your information PubMed papers do acknowledge deaths from Gardasil.

    So perhaps you could tell us:
    1. What research trials you have done, so we can get an idea of how appropriate your experience is, and
    2. These pubmed reports of gardasil deaths.
    Thanks.

    Like

  300. September 4, 2013 at 5:50 am

    @Dingo – I think Kaz & Lee need to re-read the article above. All of their assertions are refuted and debunked by the information provided right at the top……

    Like

  301. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:11 am

    Dingo- my reply was to Chris who said “It is obvious you have no clue what the PubMed index is, showing that you have never looked up a scientific medical paper ever.
    As I have mentioned here I have my Masters of Applied Science in Nursing and of course I have been involved in clinical trials. I also have been in many trials involving neonates. When I mention having seeing “first hand” what you have to “look up” , well of course I have! I’ve given vaccinations and I’ve seen the adverse effects.

    So with your rantings “must be PubMed, must be PubMed, I won’t believe anything but PubMed – Here you are – This is the first one………………..

    Human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines as an option for preventing cervical malignancies: (how) effective and safe?

    Tomljenovic L, Spinosa JP, Shaw CA.

    Source

    Neural Dynamics Research Group, Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia, 828 W. 10th Ave, Vancouver, BC, V5Z 1L8, Canada. lucijat77@gmail.com

    Abstract

    We carried out a systematic review of HPV vaccine pre- and post-licensure trials to assess the evidence of their effectiveness and safety. We find that HPV vaccine clinical trials design, and data interpretation of both efficacy and safety outcomes, were largely inadequate. Additionally, we note evidence of selective reporting of results from clinical trials (i.e., exclusion of vaccine efficacy figures related to study subgroups in which efficacy might be lower or even negative from peer-reviewed publications). Given this, the widespread optimism regarding HPV vaccines long-term benefits appears to rest on a number of unproven assumptions (or such which are at odd with factual evidence) and significant misinterpretation of available data. For example, the claim that HPV vaccination will result in approximately 70% reduction of cervical cancers is made despite the fact that the clinical trials data have not demonstrated to date that the vaccines have actually prevented a single case of cervical cancer (let alone cervical cancer death), nor that the current overly optimistic surrogate marker-based extrapolations are justified. Likewise, the notion that HPV vaccines have an impressive safety profile is only supported by highly flawed design of safety trials and is contrary to accumulating evidence from vaccine safety surveillance databases and case reports which continue to link HPV vaccination to serious adverse outcomes (including death and permanent disabilities). We thus conclude that further reduction of cervical cancers might be best achieved by optimizing cervical screening (which carries no such risks) and targeting other factors of the disease rather than by the reliance on vaccines with questionable efficacy and safety profiles.

    PMID: 23016780 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

    Like

  302. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:17 am

    Just in case you missed the part about death —-I quote from above ******PUBMED********

    “the notion that HPV vaccines have an impressive safety profile is only supported by highly flawed design of safety trials and is contrary to accumulating evidence from vaccine safety surveillance databases and case reports which continue to link HPV vaccination to serious adverse outcomes (including death and permanent disabilities”

    Yes! Death and Permanent Disabilities!

    Like

  303. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:18 am

    and because you are going to want the link , here it is….
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016780

    Like

  304. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:20 am

    “We thus conclude that further reduction of cervical cancers might be best achieved by optimizing cervical screening (which carries no such risks) and targeting other factors of the disease rather than by the reliance on vaccines with questionable efficacy and safety profiles.”

    PMID: 23016780 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

    and that is exactly what we have been saying!!!! But it has to be PubMed to get it through your thick skull!

    Like

  305. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:37 am

    More from PubMed ……
    Guillain-Barré syndrome after Gardasil vaccination: data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System 2006-2009.

    Souayah N, Michas-Martin PA, Nasar A, Krivitskaya N, Yacoub HA, Khan H, Qureshi AI.

    Source

    Department of Neurology, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark, NJ 07103, USA. souayani@umdnj.edu

    Abstract

    Using data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, we identified 69 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after Gardasil vaccination that occurred in the United States between 2006 and 2009. The onset of symptoms was within 6 weeks after vaccination in 70% of the patients in whom the date of vaccination was known. The estimated weekly reporting rate of post-Gardasil GBS within the first 6 weeks (6.6 per 10,000,000) was higher than that of the general population, and higher than post-Menactra and post-influenza vaccinations. Further prospective active surveillance for accurate ascertainment and identification of high-risk groups of GBS after Gardasil vaccination is warranted.

    Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

    Comment in
    Comment on the contribution by Souayah et al., “Guillain-Barré syndrome after Gardasil vaccination: data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System 2006-2009”. [Vaccine. 2011]

    PMID: 20869467 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

    Like

  306. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:49 am

    @ Dingo— “Kaz suggests the vaccine only lasts 5 years (citations needed) – but that doesn’t seem to be the case from most recent studies, and protection seems to be much longer than that, particularly for the bivalent vaccine (cervarix). This is rather a moot point, since if it were confirmed that vaccine efficacy fades after say 10 years, then what could possibly be wrong with getting a booster at that stage? Answer: nothing.”

    Well here is the citation you requested Dingo , yes I am right on that one too.

    Prophylactic HPV vaccines: current knowledge of impact on gynecologic premalignancies.

    Harper DM, Williams KB.

    Source

    University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine, 7900 Lee’s Summit Road, Kansas City, Missouri 64139, USA. diane.m.harper@gmail.com

    Abstract

    Approaches for cervical cancer prevention are changing. Screening still remains the most effective method for cervical cancer prevention. Guidelines are moving to an older group of women to be screened less frequently with combinations of technologies that include biomarkers and cytology. HPV vaccination is an appropriate option for this older group of women as well, should the woman not wish to make her decision about vaccination until 21 years of age, the age of screening. Parents making decisions about HPV vaccination for their young adolescent daughters need to be fully informed that only continued screening prevents cervical cancer. HPV vaccination reduces the possibility of their daughter having an abnormal Pap test by 10% if the vaccines have not waned by the time the young adolescent becomes sexually active. HPV vaccine efficacy must last at least 15 years to contribute to the prevention of cervical cancers. At this time, protection against cervical intraepithelial neoplasia grade 2/3 (CIN 2/3) is 5 years for Gardasil and 8.4 years for Cervarix. The value of the current protection HPV vaccines offer will be viewed differently by different women. Physicians’ ethical duties are to provide full explanation of the risks and benefits of adding HPV vaccination to the ongoing screening programs, and to support women in their personal choice for cervical cancer prevention.
    PMID: 20670593 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20670593

    Like

  307. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:51 am

    Just in case you didn’t read it correctly –

    This PubMed citation reads………..

    ” HPV vaccine efficacy must last at least 15 years to contribute to the prevention of cervical cancers. At this time, protection against cervical intraepithelial neoplasia grade 2/3 (CIN 2/3) is 5 years for Gardasil”

    Like

  308. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 6:52 am

    “Parents making decisions about HPV vaccination for their young adolescent daughters need to be fully informed that only continued screening prevents cervical cancer”

    as we have been saying all along.

    Like

  309. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:36 am

    In a rush and must be brief..

    At this time, protection against cervical intraepithelial neoplasia grade 2/3 (CIN 2/3) is 5 years for Gardasil and 8.4 years for Cervarix.

    That was what Dr Harper said based on the results of the Future and the other trial (haven’t time to check now, it began with a P), and these results have been superceded by other studies showing more prolonged protection (vide supra)

    PS I am not impressed that when I want a pubmed publication of a verified medical case report of a death from gardasil, all you can do is point me to a commentary study by an antivaccine doctor who cites VAERS. Again, vide supra.

    Like

  310. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 7:57 am

    We carried out a systematic review of HPV vaccine pre- and post-licensure trials to assess the evidence of their effectiveness and safety. We find that HPV vaccine clinical trials design, and data interpretation of both efficacy and safety outcomes, were largely inadequate. Additionally, we note evidence of selective reporting of results from clinical trials (i.e., exclusion of vaccine efficacy figures related to study subgroups in which efficacy might be lower or even negative from peer-reviewed publications). Given this, the widespread optimism regarding HPV vaccines long-term benefits appears to rest on a number of unproven assumptions (or such which are at odd with factual evidence) and significant misinterpretation of available data. For example, the claim that HPV vaccination will result in approximately 70% reduction of cervical cancers is made despite the fact that the clinical trials data have not demonstrated to date that the vaccines have actually prevented a single case of cervical cancer (let alone cervical cancer death), nor that the current overly optimistic surrogate marker-based extrapolations are justified. Likewise, the notion that HPV vaccines have an impressive safety profile is only supported by highly flawed design of safety trials and is contrary to accumulating evidence from vaccine safety surveillance databases and case reports which continue to link HPV vaccination to serious adverse outcomes (including death and permanent disabilities). We thus conclude that further reduction of cervical cancers might be best achieved by optimizing cervical screening (which carries no such risks) and targeting other factors of the disease rather than by the reliance on vaccines with questionable efficacy and safety profiles.

    PMID: 23016780 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

    Like

  311. September 4, 2013 at 7:58 am

    @dingo – once again, Kaz hasn’t even read the information provided in the article above – this part is particularly pertinent to this discussion:

    68 VAERS reports of Deaths
    32 Actual confirmation that death did occur (i.e. the person was real & did die)
    0 – deaths related to the vaccine

    Out of over 35 Million doses of vaccines given, this is what you have? Airplanes – one of the safest means of travel, based on passenger miles, don’t have a safety record this good…..

    Like

  312. September 4, 2013 at 8:00 am

    @Kaz – citing that Quack Doctor is as bad as citing Wakefield…..again, any actual Science to back up your assertions?

    Like

  313. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 8:19 am

    My word, my personal experience was not good enough for you Dingo, only PubMed was good enough, “show me the PubMed citation, where is the PubMed” .
    Game, set , match, don’t bother now trying to back track.
    You were wrong.
    You got what you wanted, there’s your PubMed. My work here is done.

    My original purpose in commenting here was to warn other parents to be careful of this vaccine, that my daughter had a severe adverse reaction. she is still suffering. She didn’t deserve to suffer as she has. As a good parent it is responsible of me to warn others. If parents refuse to heed this advice then at least get the vaccine at the Doctor’s surgery not at school. There is no way two nurses can supervise adverse reactions in a hundred students safely and most years the result has been an ambulance being called to the school. This year it was a boy. So contrary to your opinion I am a responsible person with a medical background currently working in education simply asking other parents to exercise caution. If I had my time again I would not have allowed my children to get this vaccine. They have had two shots and I am extremely worried about the long term effects. Our next step is an MRI and hormone testing. The stroke like symptoms she had following vaccination with Gardasil will stay with me forever. I NEVER want any other parent to go through what I had to witness in my own child. We love our children and we want what’s best for them. I was in two minds about this vaccination and I had been warned about it, I decided on what I thought was a compromise , I would take my daughter to the Doctor’s surgery and didn’t sign the consent forms for the school vaccinations. All I can say is “Thank God I at least had enough concern to go to our family doctor.” . It is matter of time before this vaccination is banned.

    Like

  314. September 4, 2013 at 8:33 am

    @Kaz – if that “severe reaction” was an allergy, than it has nothing to do with the actual safety profile of the vaccine, as it would have occurred in any number of other circumstances as well.

    As for the chances of Gardisil being banned….well, as has been noted, it isn’t even banned in Japan (where it was just taken off the “recommended” schedule, but still offered by the government for free). Care to comment on that?

    Like

  315. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 9:01 am

    Kaz, your misunderstanding on this point is fundamental, and quite worrying too (if you genuinely do take part in medical research).

    To recap, the reports to date of deaths blamed on Gardasil come from self-reported, passive surveillance systems, the inherent problems of which have been explained at some length. It is very disappointing to see that people like you, as well as those you source your information from, such as “doctors” who write articles, do not understand that these reports are anecdotal, medically uncorroborated and unverified, and mostly entirely coincidental and not causally linked to the vaccine.
    When one does a search on VAERS/CDCwonder for reaction reports, everyone is made aware of this, and they have to actually tick a disclaimer box that states they have both read and understood this rider.

    Here is the VAERS information page:
    http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index
    Please read it. And then understand it.

    It is plain wrong, as many do, to say that a VAERS report is proof of causality. Your own sources (and you too, apparently) seem to think they are.

    I’ll keep it simple. What I wanted from you was some form of medically verifiable proof of a reaction to the vaccine causing someone’s death. This should come in the form of a published case report in a peer-reviewed medical journal, something that would appear on a PubMed search , which would provide a degree of medical veracity.
    Please can you provide one for me?
    (The following does not count, for obvious reasons – Links to Pubmed indexed articles that themselves merely make vague claims based on VAERS.)

    For general info, here are a few of the VAERS deaths I checked out, which you and others are blaming on Gardasil. For extra brownie points, can you tell me what is wrong with them as examples of how lethal Gardasil is?
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=293388
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=291804
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=397437
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=383175
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=425513

    Like

  316. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 9:09 am

    Kaz, your misunderstanding on this point is fundamental, and quite worrying too (if you genuinely do take part in medical research).

    To recap, the reports to date of deaths blamed on Gardasil come from self-reported, passive surveillance systems, the inherent problems of which have been explained at some length. It is very disappointing to see that people like you, as well as those you source your information from, such as “doctors” who write articles, do not understand that these reports are anecdotal, medically uncorroborated and unverified, and mostly entirely coincidental and not causally linked to the vaccine.
    When one does a search on VAERS/CDCwonder for reaction reports, everyone is made aware of this, and they have to actually tick a disclaimer box that states they have both read and understood this rider.

    Here is the VAERS information page:
    http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index
    Please read it. And then understand it.

    It is plain wrong, as many do, to say that a VAERS report is proof of causality. Your own sources (and you too, apparently) seem to think they are.

    I’ll keep it simple. What I wanted from you was some form of medically verifiable proof of a reaction to the vaccine causing someone’s death. This should come in the form of a published case report in a peer-reviewed medical journal, something that would appear on a PubMed search , which would provide a degree of medical veracity.
    Please can you provide one for me?
    (The following does not count, for obvious reasons – Links to Pubmed indexed articles that themselves merely make vague claims based on VAERS.)

    Like

  317. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 9:19 am

    I asked Kaz about the equivalent for DAEN, the contents of the green box you see when you first enter. Here’s what she said:

    All that says is that the Government Agency itself is not responsible for what has been reported by Medical Practitioners. A very normal legality.

    Here’s what it actually said:

    An adverse event report does not mean that the medicine is the cause of the adverse event.

    She’s willing to outright lie to us, and actually believes we’d fall for it.

    Like

  318. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 9:43 am

    “As of today, an estimated 3.28 million Japanese people alone have been inoculated with these HPV vaccinations. So far, 1,968 adverse cases have been presented to the Japanese government, detailing severe medical side effects.

    The Japanese people are reporting side effects ranging from “long-term pain and numbness to infertility and paralysis.” In the wake of these complaints, the Japanese government has decided to withdraw its support for these widely pushed and controversial HPV inoculations.”

    Like

  319. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 9:46 am

    Kaz, I need a source for that quote. Remember, we don’t have any reason to trust you, now that you’ve confirmed you’re willing to lie to us.

    Like

  320. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 9:52 am

    Documents obtained from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) detail 26 new deaths reported to the government following HPV vaccination between September 1, 2010 and September 15, 2011. That’s 26 reported deaths of young, previously healthy, girls after Gardasil vaccination in just one year.
    Other serious side effects reported during that time frame included:
    Seizures, Paralysis, Blindness, Pancreatitis, Memory Loss, Speech problems, Ovarian Cysts,
    Guillain-Barre syndrome.
    Between May 2009 and September 2010, 16 deaths after Gardasil vaccination were reported. For that time-frame, there were also 789 reports of “serious” Gardasil adverse reactions, including 213 cases of permanent disability and 25 diagnosed cases of Guillain Barre Syndrome, Judicial Watch reported.
    213 CASES OF PERMANENT DISABILITY TIED TO GARDASIL IN ONE YEAR!!!

    Like

  321. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 9:53 am

    Kaz, why should we trust you?

    Like

  322. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:03 am

    Gardasil banned in Spain

    Like

  323. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 10:06 am

    The actual article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/02/10/tb-merck-gardasil-suspension-idUSLA56308620090210

    One batch was recalled, the vaccine is still being used. A simple Google search revealed the truth. Kaz has no excuse for not knowing this.

    Like

  324. September 4, 2013 at 10:07 am

    @Kaz – first, do you know the difference between “reported” and “confirmed?” Because by your last posts, you really don’t seem to.

    As to Spain, one batch was withdrawn – care to cite where it has been banned?

    Otherwise, you are just a liar.

    Like

  325. September 4, 2013 at 10:23 am

    @Kaz – in the placebo vs. vaccine testing done above, we see a slightly higher rate of reactions reported in the placebo group though statistically they are almost identical – care to explain that?

    Like

  326. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:28 am

    Definition of batch -76,000 doses.

    Like

  327. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Placebo contained aluminium

    Like

  328. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:31 am

    Source

    Department of Neurology, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark, NJ 07103, USA. souayani@umdnj.edu

    Abstract

    Using data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, we identified 69 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after Gardasil vaccination that occurred in the United States between 2006 and 2009. The onset of symptoms was within 6 weeks after vaccination in 70% of the patients in whom the date of vaccination was known. The estimated weekly reporting rate of post-Gardasil GBS within the first 6 weeks (6.6 per 10,000,000) was higher than that of the general population, and higher than post-Menactra and post-influenza vaccinations. Further prospective active surveillance for accurate ascertainment and identification of high-risk groups of GBS after Gardasil vaccination is warranted.

    Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

    Comment in
    Comment on the contribution by Souayah et al., “Guillain-Barré syndrome after Gardasil vaccination: data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System 2006-2009″. [Vaccine. 2011]

    PMID: 20869467 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

    Like

  329. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:33 am

    3.Merck tested Gardasil’s effectiveness and safety against a placebo that contained an undisclosed amount of aluminium (Gardasil itself contains 225 mcg of aluminium). We have often discussed the problems with aluminium, a known toxic substance, on this site. It can cause a variety of problems, including permanent nerve damage. Using a reactive placebo that contains a known toxic substance rather than a non-reactive saline based placebo can make the vaccine appear safer than it is, since the placebo itself causes adverse effects. The only table in Merck’s report that compared the vaccine with a saline-based placebo in addition to the aluminium-containing placebo looked at adverse experiences at the injection site, so it did not give an accurate representation of Gardasil’s overall safety and effectiveness. However, it did show that white the vaccine and the aluminium placebo had similar rates of adverse effects, the saline-based placebo had far fewer of these. For example, only 7.3% of patients receiving the saline placebo experienced swelling after receiving it, as contrasted with 25.4% of those receiving Gardasil, and 15.7% of those receiving the aluminium placebo.

    Like

  330. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 10:37 am

    Kaz :
    Definition of batch -76,000 doses.

    That doesn’t make you any less of a liar.

    Kaz :
    Placebo contained aluminium

    What form of aluminum? The raw element or a compound? This is the most basic question of chemistry, your refusal to answer it does not help your case.

    Kaz :
    Using data from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, we identified 69 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after Gardasil vaccination that occurred in the United States between 2006 and 2009.

    Key word is “reports”. If eyewitness testimonies were always perfectly accurate, we would not need a court system.

    Like

  331. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 10:43 am

    “According to the health ministry, 76,000 shots from the affected batch have already been distributed to regional authorities and chemists, who have been told to halt its sale” –
    Halt = stop ,i.e stop its sale

    Like

  332. September 4, 2013 at 10:44 am

    @Kaz – once again, you fail basic Science…..what is the difference between aluminum & an aluminum salt compound?

    Also, you rely on “reports” vs. “confirmed.”

    And lastly, thanks for proving to be a liar about Spain.

    Like

  333. September 4, 2013 at 10:45 am

    @Kaz – one batch…..is that “banned in Spain?”

    Is Gardisil sold / administered in Spain today?

    Like

  334. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 10:47 am

    Kaz, one batch was recalled. Banned means that the vaccine was prohibited altogether. Why are you lying to us? Do you really think it’s going to help you?

    Like

  335. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    Just so everyone knows, dingo199’s post containing the links to the VAERS reports in #315 was just approved.

    Like

  336. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    Kaz, don’t waste your time with these guys. They are not nice people and only believe in being negative. You won’t find any civility here. I suggest you move on before you get too poisoned.

    Like

  337. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    I heard that the USA have BANNED Toyotas.

    Oh, my mistake, they merely recalled a batch.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/09/04/toyota-recall-hybrids-lexus-heat-engines-unexpected-stops/2761375/

    Like

  338. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    So Kaz, we are still waiting for published, medically verified reports that Gardasil reactions killed anyone.

    I will keep asking you this question until you answer it. Trying to create Gish-gallop side tracking manouvers won’t hide the fact that you cannot give us any examples.
    For such a horrible, lethal vaccine that means something is wrong. Perhaps it isn’t that harmful after all, maybe?

    Like

  339. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Gray Falcon :Just so everyone knows, dingo199′s post containing the links to the VAERS reports in #315 was just approved.

    Thanks.
    Kaz, tell me, do you think Gardasil killed this person?
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=293388

    Like

  340. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    @dingo199: You’re welcome! A comment on “Utpal Patel”: It’s fascinating that some people consider being “positive” and “nice” to be more important than being honest and compassionate.

    Like

  341. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Oh, and if anyone tries to claim that we lack compassion, let me ask you something. What about all the people who suffer from cervical cancer? What about all those whose cancer a pap smear fails to catch? Do their lives mean nothing to you? Whenever we ask about them, you refuse to talk about them. Why is it?

    Like

  342. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Too bad you can’t be honest, compassionate, positive, and nice all at the same time Gray Falcon. You think you have to be mean, nasty, condescending, and flippant to have an honest conversation? What a joke.

    Like

  343. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Utpal, respect is not given, it is earned. When one is a liar or a defender of a liar, contempt is all they deserve. You’re quite lucky we’re allowing you to participate at all, do not push our patience. Now tell me: Do the lives of those who suffered from cervical cancer mean anything to you?

    Like

  344. September 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    @Dingo – thank you for posting those VAERS entries….very enlightening.

    Like

  345. September 4, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    @Gray – actually, Utpal has proven to be none of the things he claims he wants from others.

    Like

  346. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    @Dingo- I don’t know how representative a sample those entries are, but they do illustrate an important point: Anecdotal evidence is where science begins, not where it ends.

    Like

  347. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Gray Falcon, you have not earned any respect and you FAIL as a human being. Pushing your patience? What are you going to do? PATHETIC

    Like

  348. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:40 pm
  349. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Stories of reactions and death from Gardasil
    http://sanevax.org/

    Like

  350. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    The Lead Vaccine Developer Comes Clean – Gardasil and Cervarix
    http://www.pop.org/content/merck-researcher-admits-gardasil-guards-against-almost-nothing-985

    Like

  351. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm
  352. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Gardasil Researcher Speaks Out
    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-5253431.html

    Like

  353. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Gardasil genetic fingerprints found in postmortem samples of girls given vaccine – crosses blood brain barrier
    http://www.naturalnews.com/037959_Gardasil_girls_death.html

    Like

  354. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    HPV Vaccines: Scientists Use Manufacturers’ Data to Prove Lack of Efficacy
    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-10-28/hpv-vaccines-scientists-use-manufacturers-data-to-prove-lack-of-efficacy/

    Like

  355. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Cervarix, Like Gardasil, Doesn’t Do What Was Claimed: Research
    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-10-31/cervarix-like-gardasil-doesnt-do-what-was-claimed-research/

    Like

  356. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Gardasil vaccination is a research experiment on young Norwegian girls.
    Page 8: The government of Norway committed to establishing an HPV vaccine registry for the entire country. Merck will use data from the HPV vaccine registry and existing birth registers in Norway to analyze pregnancy exposures and outcomes…
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/min-archive/min-jun06.pdf

    Like

  357. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Utpal, what about the people hurt by cervical cancer? Do they matter to you?

    Like

  358. September 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @Utpal – gaia.com, really? That’s your “source?” Too funny.

    How about the multiple of studies cited above that disprove everything you’ve posted? Not to mention the various misrepresentations of Dr. Harper….which you so kindly reproduce here (again).

    As for Norway – so they have a database to help track the efficacy and long-term safety of the vaccine…sounds like a great idea to me. What’s your problem with it exactly?

    Again, you’re too funny for words.

    Like

  359. September 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    So far no one has posted verified evidence the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus. Tomljenovic’s VAERS dumpster diving does not count. Plus the number of Guillain-Barre syndrome cases (which happen without a vaccine) do not equal this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Oh, and Utpal Patel, please read this site’s comment policy, especially these two parts:

    personal attacks of any kind;

    spam or unsolicited advertisements;

    Stop spamming us with nonsense websites and news articles. And yes, when a vaccine is being researched the outcomes are noted. People are notified that they are research subjects. I was a research subject as a college student for the first swine flu vaccine in the 1970s. It is not a big deal, and actually shows that there are large research programs for the HPV vaccine, which is counter to the claims of some of the websites you posted.

    Like

  360. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Gray Falcon, you have not earned any respect and you FAIL as a human being. Pushing your patience? What are you going to do? PATHETIC

    Tell the site moderator to have you banned for off-topic posting.

    Like

  361. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    Correction: Ask the site moderator to have you banned for off-topic posting, personal attacks, and spamming a known quack site.

    Like

  362. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Chris, “personal attacks” really?

    Lawrence, now Chris is being the funny one.

    Chris, I see no spam or unsolicited advertisements??? Every one of those links are relevant to this article. Too bad you can’t handle the heat.

    Gray Falcon, off-topic posting? You are even more funny than Chris.

    Like

  363. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Utpal: Weren’t you the one who wrote “you FAIL as a human being.”? Are you lying to me again. And our attitude isn’t the subject of the post, HPV is.

    Also, Gaia health (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gaia_Health) defended a company that sold a product containing belladonna: “Hyland’s Homeopathic Teething Tablets”. Anyone who supports a poisoner is not worth our respect.

    Like

  364. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    Gray Falcon….you really should get some help. You have a bad habit of calling everyone who disagrees with you a liar. Please seek out some help with these trust issues that you have.

    Like

  365. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Utpal- If someone says something that they know isn’t true, they are a liar by definition. Do not think I make those accusations lightly. Now tell me, why are you quoting a site that defends a large corporation’s right to sell toxic products?

    Like

  366. September 4, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    @Uptal – “off-topic” but more to the point, baseless & evidenceless assertions….again, what is posted at the very top of this article disproves, debunks and demolishes all of the lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations of data that you’ve posted in those “articles.”

    I find Dingo’s posting of those VAERS entries to be very interesting, since they are what are being used to “scare” people – just by listing they exist. Once you read them (including the one that boils down to “I heard from a friend who saw on the Internet that someone died of Gardisil” you see exactly how silly they are & why there should be discounted without actual follow-up and confirmation (which is exactly what VAERS does not have).

    So Kaz / Utpal / Lee – care to comment on what is contained in the very VAERS entries you are using as “evidence?”

    Like

  367. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    Gray Falcon…The irony of your comment is over your head.

    Lawrence….Care to comment on this http://sanevax.org/
    This is real life Lawrence, not VAERS.

    Like

  368. September 4, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    @Uptal – evidence, not YouTube videos…..that’s not proof. Also, glad to hear that you admit that VAERS isn’t “real life” so you guys will stop using it as evidence, right?

    I look forward to you saying that to Kaz.

    Like

  369. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    It’s right in your face Lawrence, you can choose to ignore it, but that doesn’t won’t make it go away. And thanks for admitting that you don’t really care about the health of these young girls.

    Like

  370. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Utpal- We care about their health, but they are not the only human beings on this planet. Do you care about the health of those suffering from cervical cancer?

    Like

  371. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Gray Falcon…The irony of your comment is over your head.
    This is real life Lawrence, not VAERS.

    What irony? That your source is guilty of the crime you accuse us of?

    Like

  372. Karen
    September 4, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Way to go, Kaz and Utpal!

    Like

  373. September 4, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    Utpal Patel:

    Too bad you can’t be honest, compassionate, positive, and nice all at the same time Gray Falcon. You think you have to be mean, nasty, condescending, and flippant to have an honest conversation? What a joke.

    Gray Falcon, you have not earned any respect and you FAIL as a human being. Pushing your patience? What are you going to do? PATHETIC

    Why do you think insults and random unscientific websites are substitutes for verifiable evidence?

    Please post the verified evidence from the peer reviewed scientific literature (which is found indexed on PubMed) that the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus as noted by this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  374. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    I do care about those suffering from cervical cancer, and I am not promoting anything that causes cervical cancer. You are the one promoting something that injured those girls, that you don’t care about. Big, big difference. Your only solution hurts people along the way.

    Like

  375. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    blah blah blah Chris….you don’t need papers. The evidence is right in front of you. Again, ignore it and live with yourself.

    Like

  376. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    If you remove the barrier along the side of a bridge, and someone falls off, you are guilty of a crime. What you are doing is causing cancer by inaction. And by the way, your logic is the same logical that served the Salem witch trials.

    Like

  377. September 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Utpal Patel and Karen, please post the verified evidence from the scientific literature that the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus, as noted in the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  378. September 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    @Utpal – so no commend on the paucity of information & unreliability of those VAERS reports? If that’s what you guys are relying on, then no wonder gaia.com is the best you have….not to mention that if those videos were really related to the vaccine, you’d see case studies done all over the place….videos aren’t evidence.

    Like

  379. September 4, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    @Chris – heck, he can’t even produce evidence that the vaccine is related to any verified serious reactions (and although they do occur, I’m sure – they have been shown to be extremely rare – many magnitude rarer than the chances of getting cervical cancer in the first place).

    Like

  380. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    Just a horrible try on an analogy Gray. Where do you get this stuff?

    If those same barriers killed people on a daily basis, I don’t think anybody would complain if they were taken down. Please keep making excuses for your inability to care for the injured girls Gray, if it makes you feel better.

    Chris, Why don’t you tell that to the injured girls – face to face? Poisoning the people to try and prevent another poison doesn’t make any sense.

    Like

  381. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Heck Lawrence…. I take it that you can’t read?

    Like

  382. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Utpal, my analogy still stands. We’ve already demonstrated many of those cases in VAERS had nothing to do with the vaccine, so it’s pretty clear that the vaccine isn’t as dangerous as you claim it to be. Also, let me ask you something: Is it right to let a thousand innocents die for the sake of one person?

    Like

  383. September 4, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    @Utpal – I’m not the one trying to foist unsubstantiated videos as evidence that the vaccine is bad……I’m also not the one using VAERS entries, like those above, as evidence that the vaccine is bad….up to this point, in fact, none of the anti-vax individuals here have produced a shred of actual evidence to support their positions that hasn’t already been thoroughly demolished by Real Science.

    Like

  384. September 4, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    @Gray – it is worse than that, the question should be – “is it right to let a thousand innocents die based on the unsubstantiated story of one person?”

    Like

  385. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    @Lawrence- It’s become clear that Utpal et al are the only ones who haven’t even bothered to read the data. Simply assuming that the results match one’s presuppositions without checking is the opposite of science, and responsible for much of the “medicine” of the Middle Ages. Seriously, I’m a programmer, and I’d get in trouble if I didn’t check to see if a program worked before I deployed it. If a drug company released a drug without testing it, they’d be in serious trouble. Why do they think they are above such standards?

    Like

  386. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Please Gray, citation needed. Thousands vs 1??

    And btw, you haven’t demonstrated anything regarding VAERS. There is more than enough evidence in VAERS to demonstrate the dangers of this vaccine. You can debate what percentages yadda yadda, but it is irrelevant, the truth is there are reported injuries that are legitimate no matter what you say.

    Like

  387. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    I see my appeal for someone, anyone to provide some decent published medically verified evidence that Gardasil has ever caused anyone’s death has fallen on deaf ears, or blind eyes if you prefer.

    Also my appeal has gone ignored for the antivaccine sockies here look at some of the VAERS reports that they say “prove” Gardasil is deadly, and explain what exactly they think the cause of death might be .

    I think we can safely dismiss the unevidenced rants of the antivaxers. They haven’t got science, they haven’t got a shred of valid evidence, they haven’t got even a modicum of plausibility, and they haven’t got a leg to stand on. All they have are links to propaganda-filled antivaccine websites and a propensity to copy/paste junk without first engaging their brains.

    Like

  388. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    Lawrence, those videos and stories you refer to are people. It’s called communication. Go ahead and downplay how the messages are communicated, but it doesn’t change the story or the message.

    Like

  389. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    dingo…please tell you theory to the injured girls and families face to face.

    Like

  390. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    Gray. you are so naïve. Drug companies above such standards? Impossible!

    Like

  391. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Please Gray, citation needed. Thousands vs 1??

    In fact it is more than that.
    HPV vaccine is estimated to save 2,500 women each year from death from cervical cancer.
    Yet there is not a single, medically verifiable documented death recorded from the vaccine.
    Even if there were one, that would make it 2,500 vs one.
    Do the math.
    Vaccinate.

    Like

  392. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    dingo…please tell you theory to the injured girls and families face to face.

    Please tell your scare stories to the thousands of bereaved families of the women who die from vaccine-preventable cancer.

    Like

  393. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm
  394. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    Sort of off topic, but relates to Kaz and Lee’s bizarre notion that because teenage girls don’t die from cervical cancer they don’t need vaccination. It also illustrates my prescience in using Hep B as an example to show them how wrong they are.
    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/09/03/hepatitis-b-vaccination-cuts-deaths-from-liver-disease-cancer-study

    Like

  395. September 4, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    @Uptal – eye-witnesses are perhaps the worst kind of evidence, given the number of people wrongfully convicted of crimes. Sure, stories are a start, but actual scientific evidence is what really shows us what is going on…so how about start posting some, if you have it? (I suspect you don’t)

    Like

  396. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    dingo….I would be happy to tell them about this vaccine and these girls. They should know.

    What killed this girl? It is irrelevant. As I stated before, there is more than enough evidence in VAERS and other places to raise suspicions and concerns about this vaccine. Do you submit that there isn’t one VAERS report that is legitimate?

    Like

  397. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    Lawrence….don’t bother with the bad eye-witness crap. You will grab at anything to avoid the topic of conversation. When there are many, many stories, that is evidence, and should be regarded.

    Like

  398. September 4, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    @Utpal – so, you have a problem with the truth? You mean that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, which is why we back them up with actual Science & Evidence?

    Stories aren’t evidence, not even close – they are a point of investigation, which, if you had taken the time to read the post above & the citations provided, you would know that those stories have not been substantiated to any meaningful extent.

    As to the topic of conversation, Dingo, Chris, Gray & I seem to be the only ones who are capable of actually staying on-topic.

    Like

  399. novalox
    September 4, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    @utpal

    Finally decided to stop with the childish insults? Good for you.

    As for evidence, why haven’t you presented any? All you have presented are pseudosceitific claims and outright conspiracy theory, all of which have been easily disproven.

    So why should we believe anything you say, when you cannot provide anything of worth to the table?

    Like

  400. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    Lawrence….it is you that has a problem with the truth, by ignoring all of the evidence.

    Maybe you need to go back and read information from links I have provided.

    Again, please go to the family of one of these unsubstantiated stories and tell them they are not reliable eye-witnesses to themselves or family members and tell them the vaccine was not responsible for their injuries or family members death.

    Like

  401. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    novalox. The fact that you back this vaccine only makes it more in question. You have shown that you don’t care about anybody, so why would I believe you?

    Like

  402. novalox
    September 4, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    @utpal

    Simple, you have not presented any such evidence that supports your viewpoints, despite repeated requests from the regular posters here. All you have presented are conspiracy theory and pseudoscience, which is not backed up by any actual science or medicine.

    So again, why should we believe you, when you have repeatedly lied and spewed ad hominems at the regulars here.

    Of course, I’ll be waiting to see if you will go into another childish rant. I do need my entertainment after all, anyways.

    Like

  403. September 4, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    @Utpal – obviously is it hopeless to continue to argue with you, as you seem to be extremely “reality-challenged.”

    When those cases you cite have been investigated and confirmed, I’ll be happy to consider them. Until such time, they fly in the face of the actual real scientific studies that have been done and cited in the article above.

    Like

  404. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    dingo….I would be happy to tell them about this vaccine and these girls. They should know.
    What killed this girl? It is irrelevant. As I stated before, there is more than enough evidence in VAERS and other places to raise suspicions and concerns about this vaccine. Do you submit that there isn’t one VAERS report that is legitimate?

    It is relevant what killed that girl, since that is a report being used by all your sources to show how lethal HPV vaccine is. So if the girl didn’t die from a vaccine reaction (and she didn’t, as you now seem to acknowledge) then this is an example of a VAERS misattribution.

    Now I can provide quite a few more similar cases where reported VAERS gardasil vaccine reactions are clearly coincidental and are unambiguously unrelated to the medically verified cause of death. When a high proportion of your so called “proven” cases are disproven, it undermines your entire premise the vaccine is dangerous.

    Now, are there VAERS reports that might indicate vaccine reactions caused serious harm or death? Well there might be, but the CDC carry out followup investigations on every reported death, and publish the results. Often there i insufficient evidence to indicate a causal link. What is lacking are examples of verified deaths where there has been medical corroboration and publication. You know, the sort of “proof” that there should be hundreds of examples of, were your claims about the vaccine to be true.

    Now, we are all wondering why none of you antivaxers can supply even one example. Rather torpedoes your entire argument if you can’t come up with the goods. Bleating about reports of some nebulous and spuriously vague cases of claimed vaccine damage on some antivaccine blog like Gaia health don’t count, as I know you know.

    Like

  405. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 6:22 pm

    Utpal, I can clearly read the VAERS reports, and they do not say what you claim them to say. You are either supremely arrogant or a brazen liar.

    Like

  406. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    Lawrence….you are the “reality” challenged one as you ignore the reality of people being injured and look for answers only in papers. Too bad you can only view the world by a paper you read and not by your own vision and your own reality.

    Like

  407. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    dingo. thank you for admitting, in your own round-about way, that there are VAERS reports that are accurate. That is called evidence that this vaccine is not safe.

    Like

  408. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    Gray, so you submit that there isn’t one accurate VAERS report? Or are you lying to me again?

    Like

  409. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    dingo. thank you for admitting, in your own round-about way, that there are VAERS reports that are accurate. That is called evidence that this vaccine is not safe.

    You can’t read now? I never said they were accurate – I said that none of them have been medically verified, which nearly eliminates the chance any are genuinely deaths due to gardasil reactions.

    So please…. Give us one medically corroborated, published case report of a death from gardasil. Just one will suffice.
    Put up or shut up, as they say.

    Like

  410. September 4, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    @Utpal – then provide the follow-up evidence that these stories are real, because the VAERS reports that Dingo provided don’t help your case.

    Like

  411. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Anyway, the question is not whether the vaccine has any side effects, it is a question of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. They do, astronomically so.

    Vaccinate, save lives.

    Like

  412. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    dingo,

    “You can’t read now? I never said they were accurate – I said that none of them have been medically verified, which nearly eliminates the chance any are genuinely deaths due to gardasil reactions.”

    Is that right? Not medically verified = not a genuine death? Wow

    Like

  413. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    Lawrence, I am sure all of the stories are fictional and the families are only actors.

    Like

  414. Utpal Patel
    September 4, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    Death and other serious health issues are nice “side effects” dingo!

    Like

  415. September 4, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    @Utpal – until proven otherwise, yes given the VAERS entries listed above, you’ve got a mighty big hill to climb, but you just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

    Like

  416. September 4, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    By Utpal’s logic, the Smallpox vaccine was incredibly unsafe & never should have been used (and Smallpox eradicated)…..he must be incredibly pro-disease.

    Like

  417. September 4, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    @Utpal – you are a living, breathing example of both the Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies….I’m sure you never go outside, because of the slight chance you could be struck by lightning…..

    Like

  418. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    This report seems to be an error. The drug blamed for the death is Rocephin (ceftriaxone) 3 days before death, and not HPV vax as the headline suggests.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=321696

    Like

  419. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    Uncorroborated hearsay “eveidence”:
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=397437

    Like

  420. dingo199
  421. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:00 pm
  422. September 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    @Uptal – if you go outside & look around, you’d swear the world was flat. In fact, a lot of people, looking with just their eyes, would swear the world is flat….do you believe the stories or do you dig deeper for the actual evidence….of course, we already know where your loyalties lie….

    Like

  423. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    And again..
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=373314
    Interestingly they say this is one of “several reports received from the same source”, so it looks as though someone is trying to conjure up reports of vaccine damage. I can guess why.

    Like

  424. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    Utpal, did you bother reading the VAERS entries? We did, and anyone who bothers to check them out knows what we’re talking about. You didn’t even bother to read the first sentence that appear on the “VAERS data” page: “When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established.” There might be a few where such a relationship has been discovered after the fact, but the reports alone are not evidence.

    Like

  425. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    And yet more hearsay reports, this time from a different source, who also posted multiple reports.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=361629

    Like

  426. September 4, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    @Kaz – I think Dingo has definitely torpedo’ed your theories…..those VAERS entries are almost funny, if they weren’t so blatantly being used by others to cast false doubt on the vaccine.

    Like

  427. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Myocarditis in a girl with pre-existing cardiac disease with mitral and aortic valve problems. Was gardasil a factor? Seems implausible, but not impossible I guess.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=275428

    Like

  428. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    Pulmonary embolism in a girl on oral contraceptives. These things have always happened in females, and likely to be coincidental, considering how many similar cases there were pre-HPV vax?
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=275438

    Like

  429. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    Girl developed necrotising fasciitis in thigh 4 days after a 4 vax combo. Blood cultures showed strep. Now it is feasible vaccination sites can get secondarily infected with strep, but the site of the nec fasc was in the leg, not the arm, so likely coincidence? And why blame HPV vax anyway when other culprits exist. Oh, I forgot, the antivaxers get to multiple count these cases as death from 1). HPV vax, 2) death from tetanus vax, 3) death from pertussis vax, 4) death from diphtheria vax, 5) death from meningovax, 6) death from HepA vax. Figures.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=344160

    Like

  430. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    Girl with pre-existing epilepsy, subject to monthly attacks. Had seizure and died 37 days after vaccination.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=380740

    Like

  431. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Commited suicide. Underlying depression. It happens. In this case it was 2 days after vaccination, but given the number of teenage suicides and factor in the number of vaccination shots teens get and you will find sometimes they happen close to each other. Simple probability. Nothing medically indicative the vaccine makes people suicidal AFAIK.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=425513

    Like

  432. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    Parent reports child died suddenly. This was 309 days after vaccination.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=337242

    Like

  433. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    Another parental report. Girl was “tired” before her death. Autopsy found nothing. death 240 days after vaccination.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=337797

    Like

  434. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    Death from a convulsion in an autistic girl 13 days after vaccine. Coincidence? Quite possible. Certainly not strong causal evidence, and no medical corroboration available.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=406289

    Like

  435. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    At first I thought this case would be a potentially attributable case of a gardasil triggered death – it is the case of a girl with immune thrombocytopenia in remission who suffered a fatal intracranial hemorrhage with relapse of her ITP. I initially read this as her ITP relapse following gardasil.
    However, looking at the time lines I see that she had HPV1 in October, HPV2 in January, and only had her relapse of ITP in April three months later, which makes an immune-based reaction to the vaccine near-impossible.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=437735

    Like

  436. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    Now, I could go on with this all night, but I need my sweet dreams.

    In summary so far, looking at VAERS reports which supposedly prove Gardasil kills people, I have found not a single convincing example, never mind one that has been medically confirmed as being linked to the vaccine.

    This is in accordance with all the reports in the opening article.

    Please antivax people, realise when you are in a hole, and stop digging. This vaccine seems pretty safe, does not have any verified deaths linked to it, and has been given to millions of people in the US. It has virtually eliminated genital warts in teenage girls, and will dramatically cut the incidence of cervical cancer in the years ahead.

    Give it to your children.

    Like

  437. Kaz
    September 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    @ Dingo— “Kaz suggests the vaccine only lasts 5 years (citations needed) – but that doesn’t seem to be the case from most recent studies, and protection seems to be much longer than that, particularly for the bivalent vaccine (cervarix). This is rather a moot point, since if it were confirmed that vaccine efficacy fades after say 10 years, then what could possibly be wrong with getting a booster at that stage? Answer: nothing.”

    Well here is the citation you requested Dingo , yes I am right on that one too.

    Prophylactic HPV vaccines: current knowledge of impact on gynecologic premalignancies.

    Harper DM, Williams KB.

    Source

    University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine, 7900 Lee’s Summit Road, Kansas City, Missouri 64139, USA. diane.m.harper@gmail.com

    Abstract

    Approaches for cervical cancer prevention are changing. Screening still remains the most effective method for cervical cancer prevention. Guidelines are moving to an older group of women to be screened less frequently with combinations of technologies that include biomarkers and cytology. HPV vaccination is an appropriate option for this older group of women as well, should the woman not wish to make her decision about vaccination until 21 years of age, the age of screening. Parents making decisions about HPV vaccination for their young adolescent daughters need to be fully informed that only continued screening prevents cervical cancer. HPV vaccination reduces the possibility of their daughter having an abnormal Pap test by 10% if the vaccines have not waned by the time the young adolescent becomes sexually active. HPV vaccine efficacy must last at least 15 years to contribute to the prevention of cervical cancers. At this time, protection against cervical intraepithelial neoplasia grade 2/3 (CIN 2/3) is 5 years for Gardasil and 8.4 years for Cervarix. The value of the current protection HPV vaccines offer will be viewed differently by different women. Physicians’ ethical duties are to provide full explanation of the risks and benefits of adding HPV vaccination to the ongoing screening programs, and to support women in their personal choice for cervical cancer prevention.
    PMID: 20670593 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20670593

    Cervical Dysplasia is most common in the over fifties. Girls are vaccinated at 12, – that’s 225 micrograms of Amorphous Aluminium Hydroxyphosphate Sulphate x 3 shots . Aluminium is a serious neurotoxin and has been linked to Alzheimer’s, autopsies have shown Alzheimer’s patients to have a build up of aluminium around dead brain tissue. People who have received their flu shots for 5 years in a row have a 10 fold increased risk of Alzheimer’s

    Now do the maths, the vaccine has a life of 5 years, every 5 years another booster shot at 225 micrograms. By the time these girls are in the risk category for cervical dysplasia of over fifties the amount of aluminium Hydroxyphosphate Sulphate given (which is a cumulative poison when injected) is massive.

    Like

  438. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    Before I go, here is my last one. This very unfortunate girl developed neurological features of polyneuropathy/motor neurone disease, and unfortunately died nearly 2 years later. Onset was 85 days after vaccination, which seems too long to have a vaccine-related immune basis, so the link appears dubious at best.
    http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=307394

    The other thing I have found is that multiple reports (which each will be counted as an individual report by the antivax crew) are clearly relating to one case of a 17 year old who collapsed and died in her bathroom. This story appears to have made it onto an internet site, and several “reporters” have notified VAERS of this as a Gardasil related death.
    Such is the way of the internet.

    I did hear that in some quarters, lawyers who were acting for gardasil vaccine damage claimants had actively encouraged plaintiffs to report any possible vaccine damage case to VAERS, since every report against gardasil added weight to their own claims that the vaccine was dangerous.

    Many of these reports I have read seem quite specious, and it is possible that they are being reported for these rather nefarious reasons. I must point out this is merely an impression I have gained from trawling through all the reports, and not a claim of evidence. But it does make me wonder why people report these things when they are not even remotely linked to the alleged victim.

    Like

  439. dingo199
    September 4, 2013 at 8:07 pm

    Kaz, that’s funny, because I recall the scare stories about flu vaccine causing an increase in Alzheimers were comprehensively debunked.

    In fact, only decent evidence I can find shows that flu vaccine recipients are LESS likely to get Alzheimer’s.
    http://www.cmaj.ca/content/165/11/1495.full?sid=0710f5e4-3e75-466c-853e-d559a3c9d93b
    Best start queing for your shots now, before you “forget”!

    And remember, HPV vax doesn’t last for just 5 years, despite what Dr Harper thought about it several years ago.

    Like

  440. September 4, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    dingo199:

    Many of these reports I have read seem quite specious, and it is possible that they are being reported for these rather nefarious reasons.

    It does seem that some folks are using the rather easy way to report “deaths” as a way to bolster up the numbers, so they can claim a larger number of “deaths.” I doubt they will click on the links but it is obvious it is just hearsay.

    Example 1: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=373314
    It says:

    Information has been received from a consumer who saw a report on the internet about a 23 year old patient who was vaccinated with 3 doses of GARDASIL. Subsequently the patient died, the cause of the death was unknown. This is one of several reports received from the same source. Additional information has been requested.

    Example 2: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=361629
    It says:

    Information has been received from an office manager and a consumer who reported that she had seen reports of deaths following GARDASIL on television. This is one of two cases from the same source. This is a hearsay report in the absence of an identifiable patient. All telephone attempts to obtain follow up information have been unsuccessful.

    These are definitely not verified, nor even verifiable. They look to come out of thin air.

    Like

  441. lee
    September 4, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    The comment I made above, in regard to the figures cited by Chris, stands absolutely. Those figures are irrelevant to the discussion.

    Like

  442. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Gray. you are so naïve. Drug companies above such standards? Impossible!

    I never said that. I just said that you should be held to the same standards everyone else is.

    lee :
    The comment I made above, in regard to the figures cited by Chris, stands absolutely. Those figures are irrelevant to the discussion.

    Seriously. did you not see the words “HPV related cancer”? Pretending something isn’t there doesn’t make it not there.

    Like

  443. September 4, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    @Dingo – it does certainly appear that those VAERS numbers of being padded, by individuals that know nothing about whatever the original case was (reading – it was seen on the “internet” is too funny)…..which is why their utility in tracking anything without the follow-ups done by the CDC is negligible.

    Like

  444. September 4, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    I don’t know why lee thinks a Pap smear can prevent cancer. I suspect that he/she is one of those folks submitting the VAERS reports about HPV vaccine deaths he/she heard about on the internet or TV.

    Like

  445. Rose
    September 4, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    Hello , my name is Rose. My daughter had her third Gardasil shot this year. She experienced a seizure immediately after the shot. She had never had a seizure before this or any other health issues. She played sport, was a straight A student. She is being home schooled now, she gets migraines, never had them before, she cannot focus and has blurred vision. The seizure was reported but where should I report the ongoing problems. The doctor has records of all the problems should he report them? Thanks for your help

    Like

  446. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    Rose: I’d recommend reporting it, but be warned. While you suspect the shot was responsible, and it may be the case (however unlikely), without evidence of a connection, you have no case. For example, most violent crimes in America happened within 24 hours of the perpetrator eating bread: This does not mean that bread causes criminal acts.

    Like

  447. September 4, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    Rose, good luck with your case at the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

    Like

  448. Steven
    September 4, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    Gray Falcon:

    Nice advice (NOT).

    Be warned? OK Gray… you warned her. You don’t know anything about her situation besides what she mentioned above and you act like that?? You truly are a humanitarian and sensitive to people’s bad experiences and genuine requests for help (sarcasm).

    You just showed your true colors and should never be boasting about how you really care for others.

    Like

  449. September 4, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    By the way, Rose, the link I gave answers has all of the contact information you should require.

    Like

  450. Rose
    September 4, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Thank you, will take a look at that.

    Like

  451. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    @Rose: Sorry about my last comment, it was rude. Chris is right, you should send your report to them. It’s possible that knowing this will prevent other such incedents.

    @Steven: It’s still possible that the vaccine wasn’t responsible for her condition. I apologize for phrasing it so rudely, Rose did nothing to deserve it. Also, I note that you did nothing to help her at all.

    Like

  452. Steven
    September 4, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    Gray Falcon:

    I never said it was a given that it was the vaccine, and I didn’t offer any help because I didn’t know how to help her.

    You surely “didn’t help her at all”

    Like

  453. Gray Falcon
    September 4, 2013 at 11:47 pm

    Steven, jumping on me after an apology only makes you look spiteful. If you’re so concerned with politeness, why haven’t you called out any of the people here who we caught in direct lies?

    Like

  454. September 5, 2013 at 1:35 am

    Steven, how come you did not know about the NVICP? It has been discussed extensively here. All she wanted was who to contact, and everything was there, including a link to get a lawyer.

    Like

  455. lee
    September 6, 2013 at 3:07 am

    Dingo, I don’t know how I can spell it out any more clearly. No one can pretend that figures supplied by Chris for HPV related cancer are specific to types addressed in the vaccine. No amount of spin will convince any thinking person of that. As far as this conversation goes, the figures that Chris is quoting are redundant and are deliberately misleading. They need to be figures for the age group in question, specific to vaccine HPVs, and related to those who have regular Pap smears. Otherwise the figures are redundant and irrelevant and have no bearing on anything here. It will not matter how many times those figures are posted, they will still mean absolutely nothing in relation to this conversation.

    When I mentioned this above you pointed out, pretty much, that we won’t have the figures for 10 years. Exactly (in my opinion we won’t know for decades). Yet, at the top of this blog we see information pertaining to Lifetime Risk of Developing Cervical Cancer. It reads that in the U.S. it’s 1 in 147 in the unvaccinated, and 1 in 400 in the vaccinated. Really? Really. I wonder whose rear end that information was pulled out of??? If we won’t know for 10 years, that is. It’s a false, misleading, and made-up figure.

    Particularly, dingo, as you would know as you yourself quoted from this very same article further up, “If women were to choose both HPV vaccination and continued Pap screening, the rate of cervical cancer still would not decline from its current level of 8 cases for every 100,000 women.”

    And bearing in mind that is cases of cancer, not deaths.

    And in the same article:

    Compare the HPV vaccine, which has probable benefit but also the potential for serious adverse events, including demyelinating diseases that cause blindness, paralysis, and death in a small number of recipients.
    The current postmarketing commitment between Merck and the FDA is to recognize a rate of serious adverse events that exceeds 2 cases in every 10,000 women in a cohort of 44,000 women who have received all three doses of Gardasil. Although autoimmune neurologic sequelae have occurred after Gardasil administration, regulatory authorities are not required to evaluate these reactions, such as Guillain-Barré syndrome, because the frequency is lower than the agreed-upon threshold. Nevertheless, adverse events could be life threatening to some girls.

    Any risk of death—even if it is lower than the agreed-upon threshold—should be presented to women as a possible risk of vaccination with Gardasil. In the United States, the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.

    http://www.obgmanagement.com/topic-collections/oncology/article/2-hpv-vaccines-7-questions-that-you-need-answered/44c503829a06261a91caec849821fcee.html

    This point is made fairly clearly “the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.”

    And that is actually a very generous statement in relation to a vaccine that is virtually untried.

    The other day I asked Kaz on here as to what information the school sent home regarding Gardasil, and ended up coming across it myself and posting it. None of the above side effects were mentioned. People are not being given the information they require.

    Obviously those participating in the discussion published in article were well aware of such effects. In other words, Merck is well aware of the possibility of such outcomes.

    Merck has actually done very well indeed to create a market for such a superfluous product. The lobbying has really paid off. The wonderful thing for them is that it will be years before anyone can tell if it does a thing, and by then it won’t even matter because the ca$h will have been made. They may even recover their Vioxx losses.

    To reiterate:”the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.”

    Kaz and Rose deserved to be told the above BEFORE making the choice to vaccinate.

    Someone asked me (was it Gray Falcon?, can’t remember now) further up if I hated people. No – the very opposite. If speaking up prevents anyone from having to go through something like the below, due to an unnecessary vaccine, I will do so at every opportunity.

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/24/national/victims-hit-cervical-cancer-vaccines/#.Uhl4HBs3DZx

    Like

  456. Gray Falcon
    September 6, 2013 at 7:40 am

    Lee, I actually went through the trouble of lookinng up the answer to your question. The answer: Pretty much all of them.
    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV
    This is the difference between us. Yous simply want the answers spoon-fed to you, we actively look for them.

    Like

  457. dingo199
    September 6, 2013 at 9:25 am

    Lee, you have indeed made things clear – it is patently obvious you prefer to cherrypick the information you wish to find to corroborate your own irrational views about this vaccine. That is called confirmation bias. Look it up.

    You quote the opinion of Dr Harper, who is but one doctor whose views on this seem to run at variance from those given by most of the other experts in the field. Her estimates about future reductions in cases of cancer are based upon the preliminary findings of the earlier GSK and Merck vaccine studies which demonstrated that there was a fall off in antibody levels, leading to some here boldly declaring that the vaccine only lasts “5 years”, when in fact these studies did not actually show that.
    (Also noted is your avowed distrust of absolutely everything that Pharma says and does, but crikey! You have no problem believing their trial “results” when it seems to suit you!)

    Dr Harper’s comments about future rates of cancer were based on a presumption that the benefits of a single course of vaccine would last than 15 years. But since the work that these estimates (estimates others disagree with btw) were based upon was performed there have been a number of more recent studies indicating that efficacy lasts longer than this. Recent studies also indicate that Dr Harper underestimated the efficacy of the lowish rates of population vaccination in inducing effective immunity (we now know that despite completion rates of less than 50%, HPV vaccine has virtually eliminated HPV in the teenage population, and whichever way you look at it, if women never get the infection they will then never go on to get the cancer). In addition, there is the option of boosting immunity with a further vaccination shot in a woman’s 20s, which would extend protective immunity for a further 10 or 15 years. This is another thing Dr Harper never considered in her estimates.

    All in all, I find your implacable reliance on very selectively cherrypicked information to be quite concerning. You even disregard what your fount of all knowledge (Dr Harper) says about Pap smears (remember she indicated they fail to pick up 30% of precancerous lesions, and that they also result in a huge unnecessary burden of painful and fertility-reducing surgical treatment in women whose Pap smears prove falsely positive).

    There is another point – ideally, no women should get cancer. Pap smears in a perfect world would pick up all precancerous stages of the disease, and treatment would then “prevent” invasive cancer. Yet we know that there are still 12,000 cancer cases each year despite a Pap smear program. If nothing else, HPV vax will ensure that women who miss smears are also protected against cancer. And despite your idea that all women will religiously adhere to Pap smear screening timings, you will find that in practise this is near impossible.

    Again, I must say, if we can prevent HPV in the first place, then we will prevent most cases of cancer. Vaccination would also reduce the number of abnormal smears coming through the system which need further invasive treatment. To rely solely on the flawed Pap smear system of “early detection” of these abnormalities (which as Dr Harper said would miss 30% anyhow) and then embark on difficult and unpleasant surgically treatment to “prevent” the full blown horrors of cancer makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Like

  458. lee
    September 6, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    As Kaz pointed out with the Pubmed study she posted, the HPV vaccine might reduce abnormal Pap smears by 10%. That doesn’t even mean 10% reduction in cancer, as the vast majority abnormal Pap smears go on to resolve. And who actually even knows if that 10% reduction of abnormal smears will ever even be reality in the general populace.”If nothing else, HPV vax will ensure that women who miss smears are also protected against cancer.” – no, it doesn’t ensure anything of the sort. We are talking about 2 types of HPV. And I’m quite sure that no one would have the audacity to suggest that any vaccine is 100% effective, nor that it will work for particular individuals.

    It is disingenuous to smear the Pap smear (boom tish) when everyone, even those who have been vaccinated with 16 & 18, still has to have them, and whether vaccinated or not, false negatives or positives are still going to apply.

    If 21% of the population will never contract HPV, it makes no sense whatsoever for 21% of the population to risk paralysis or blindness etc for nothing.

    It comes down to whether people want to risk paralysis or death for, best case scenario, a 10% reduction in abnormal smear (which in no way translates to a 10% reduction in cancer), the vast majority of which will resolve. And, as we already know “the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.” And, as I already said, that is a very generous statement as regards an untried vaccine which has not yet stood the test of time.

    This is what Kaz risked recently. Her daughter almost died for a best scenario outcome of a 10% reduction in abnormal smear. In other words, for nothing. And all that risk because schools and doctors are not giving anyone the required information.

    Like

  459. September 6, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    @Lee – so, want to actually provide any sort of proof that the vaccine has been linked to “paralysis or death” given that the VAERS entries are a pile of garbage?

    Like

  460. dingo199
    September 6, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    It is not some “either or” scenario, Lee. It is a question of augmenting the current screening program of Pap smears (which even Dr Harper says is imperfect, seeing how it misses 30% of cancers, seeing how as many as 40% of cancers occur in women who have had a recent smear, seeing how many women miss out on smears altogether, and seeing that the many false positive smears result in fertility-reducing, painful and unnecessary surgery) with vaccination that is widely acknowledged as effective and generally safe (some very rare reactions notwithstanding).

    To claim that the vaccine is “untried” when it has undergone trials and post-marketing surveillance of over 1 million women is bizarre. Or do you like repeatedly telling lies and antivax propaganda just for the sake of it?

    To imply that because 21% of women may never contract HPV it makes no sense to vaccinate any woman is similarly stupid. (Of course, if you could find some crystal ball that can identify at age 10 those 21% of girls who will never get HPV later in life, which might serve as the basis for a highly selective targetted vaccination strategy, then good luck to you!)

    Diane Harper is not some omniscient key opinion leader wrt HPV vaccine – there are hundreds of expert opinions, mostly fully supportive and recognising the clear benefits for this vaccine.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=18538554

    Your feelings about everything that medical authorities and agencies such as CDC and FDA do, and your rank distrust of everything produced by any and every Pharma company have previously been made quite plain, so your vehement antivaccine views are hardly a surprise. So stop trying to pretend to be objective and rational when you aren’t, stop distorting and cherrypicking “evidence” when it seems merely to reconfirm your clear bias on this issue.

    PS: How is that homeopathy coming along for the child with meningococcal meningits?

    Like

  461. dingo199
    September 6, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    And again, just to nail the lie that Cervarix “only” lasts 8.4 years and Gardasil “only” lasts 5 years, here are the original trial data as displayed by Dr Harper herself showing that at the time of discontinuation of the trials sustained antibody titers were 16-fold higher in Cervarix recipients and 10-fold higher in Geardasil recipients than those seen in natural infection.
    http://www.discoverymedicine.com/Diane-M-Harper/files/2010/07/discovery_medicine_harper_no50_figure_1.jpg.jhtml?id=2|attachment_8

    Since the trials ended at that time point, they were unable to comment on further duration of protection, but the fact that immunity was sustained out to those time points indicates overall protection will last appreciably longer. In addition, in the several years since these trials ended, further studies have shown this longer duration protection (see refs from OP); clinical experience has shown HPV vaccine causes greater than expected reductions in HPV-related disease in terms of warts and CIN1-3; and herd immunity seems to be operating very well despite relatively low population uptake for the vaccines.

    Like

  462. dingo199
    September 6, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Lee – so, want to actually provide any sort of proof that the vaccine has been linked to “paralysis or death” given that the VAERS entries are a pile of garbage?

    That too.
    Perhaps Lee could start there, seeing as that seems to be one of her major objections to the vaccine.

    Like

  463. dingo199
    September 6, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    Why antivaccine activists want women to die horrible deaths is quite incomprehensible. The fact that such misogyny often comes from women themselves is even more so.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6229a4.htm

    By increasing 3-dose HPV vaccination coverage to 80%, an estimated additional 53,000 cases of cervical cancer could be prevented over the lifetimes of those aged ≤12 years. For every year that increases in coverage are delayed, another 4,400 women will go on to develop cervical cancer.

    Like

  464. Kaz
    September 7, 2013 at 3:44 am

    @Rose – I’m so sorry to hear of the terrible experience your daughter had with Gardasil. My daughter also had terrifying reaction so I know exactly how you must have felt. My doctor reported my daughter’s event to The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) which is the Department of Health and Ageing – Australian Government. My daughter has also had ongoing problems and this has also now been reported and they have sent me a letter on Friday giving me an ADR report number so we can keep all her records together. So if you are in Australia that is where you would enquire. If you are in the States it would be the FDA (Food and Drug Administration), every other country would have a similar Government Body. I hope this helps and I hope your daughter improves. Best wishes, Kaz

    Like

  465. Karen
    September 7, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Chris,
    A federal registry was begun in the ’60s to keep track of SSPE cases (always fatal) starting shortly after getting the measles vaccine. By now, hundreds of such cases have been reported. There is no reason to believe that the measles vaccine protects from SSPE.
    And I guess all readers have noticed that any adverse event occurring shortly after vaccination is denied to have been caused by it by the vaccine promoters. That means that when parents are trying to make the vaccine decision, they must be aware that even if vaccines have apparently caused certain reactions in tens of thousands or more, the defenders will always deny that it was the vaccine that caused them. Maybe they have a different opinion when it happens to their own child, I don’t know. Kenneth Copeland said that when buying a car, maybe it was a used car, most people are aware that they must take the expressed opinion of the car salesman with a grain of salt.

    Like

  466. September 7, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    @Karen – again, please provide even a shred of actual evidence to support your claims….because up to this point, you’ve done nothing of the sort.

    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

    Not to mention the 30% rate for serious side-effects from the Measles disease…..

    Like

  467. September 7, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Karen:

    A federal registry was begun in the ’60s to keep track of SSPE cases (always fatal) starting shortly after getting the measles vaccine. By now, hundreds of such cases have been reported. There is no reason to believe that the measles vaccine protects from SSPE.

    What in the world does that have to do with the HPV vaccine?

    The late 1960s was when it was first figured out that SSPE was from a measles infection. Actually, that was just after the time the first measles vaccines became available. There was speculation the vaccine could contribute, but since SSPE happens so many years after the infection it many of the cases thought to be from vaccines were just a matter of timing. As the 2007 paper cited below says: “When live measles vaccine became available in the early 1960s, the aetiology of SSPE was therefore unknown.”

    As noted in the papers I gave you in the measles article (easy to find on PubMed, and free to read):

    Int J Epidemiol. 2007 Dec;36(6):1334-48.
    Review of the effect of measles vaccination on the epidemiology of SSPE.

    … which does explain about the registry, and says” “Conclusions Successful measles vaccination programmes directly and indirectly protect the population against SSPE and have the potential to eliminate SSPE through the elimination of measles. Epidemiological and virological data suggest that measles vaccine does not cause SSPE. ”

    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

    So, again, Karen you are asked to please post the verified (ie. not raw VAERS data) evidence from the scientific literature that the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus, as noted in the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  468. kyjay
    September 8, 2013 at 2:18 am

    The point is, people need to know that there ARE risks. For any other medical procedure, doctors make sure to give the patient the worst case scenario so that the patient can then make an INFORMED decision. Your average parent doesn’t even think to question whether there might be any health issues concerning these shots. That’s all – full disclosure. It shouldn’t even be a matter for debate.

    Like

  469. September 8, 2013 at 3:18 am

    So, kyjay, what are the risks to the vaccine compared to the virus?

    Show us you are making (cut and paste from your comment) “an INFORMED decision.”

    Okay, kyjay, tell us exactly the scientifically documented evidence that the risk from the HPV vaccine is more than this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  470. kyjay
    September 8, 2013 at 4:55 am

    Chris, you’ve already said you don’t deny adverse reactions happen and there are hundreds of ‘anecdotal’ stories out there from girls who say they’ve been seriously injured. Even if these anecdotal cases haven’t been ‘proven’ parents should still be made aware of them.Like I said, “worst case scenario”

    Like

  471. dingo199
    September 8, 2013 at 6:45 am

    kyjay :
    Chris, you’ve already said you don’t deny adverse reactions happen and there are hundreds of ‘anecdotal’ stories out there from girls who say they’ve been seriously injured. Even if these anecdotal cases haven’t been ‘proven’ parents should still be made aware of them.Like I said, “worst case scenario”

    Kyjay, making people “aware” of potential problems with medical products depends upon 3 factors –
    1. How frequent it is
    2. How serious it is
    3. How genuine it is.

    This means that if there is a very common problem, even if it is trivial, people need to be made aware of it. Also, if there is a serious problem (eg death), even if rare, people should be made aware of it.

    But this predicates that the problems exist in the first place, and are not spurious. For instance, I don’t think people should be warned prior to visiting Ohio that there have been reports of alien abductions, because someone has concluded this is a “worst case scenario”. The possibility of reactions is covered with all immunisations and there are “Vaccine information statements” that are required to be given to recipients or their parents. Here is the one for Gardasil:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/hpv-gardasil.html

    With HPV, most of the reactions are minor local reactions, there are reports of serious reactions and although rare, they do not seem to be clearly linked to the vaccine in any causal way as determined by proper medical investigation. I refer you to the VAERS reports I detailed a few days ago. There is no need to alert recipients of this vaccine that plainly ridiculous “reactions” have been spuriously reported (eg by someone who overheard a friend say they read on an internet site that someone was damaged by a vaccine).

    Like

  472. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 7:23 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

    “Merck withdrew the drug after disclosures that it withheld information about rofecoxib’s risks from doctors and patients for over five years, resulting in between 88,000 and 140,000 cases of serious heart disease of which roughly half died.[2] Rofecoxib was one of the most widely used drugs ever to be withdrawn from the market. In the year before withdrawal, Merck had sales revenue of US$2.5 billion from Vioxx.[3]”

    “On November 5, the medical journal The Lancet published a meta-analysis of the available studies on the safety of rofecoxib (Jüni et al., 2004). The authors concluded that, owing to the known cardiovascular risk, rofecoxib should have been withdrawn several years earlier”

    The same drug manufacturer that manufactures Gardasil. It seems their morals and honesty about their products have been proven to be false. How much now are they keeping quiet about? Seeing as litigation has runs into billions for Vioxx/Rofecoxib , where is all that money going to come from? The marketing, the huge push for Gardasil, the denials, all too familiar.

    Like

  473. kyjay
    September 8, 2013 at 7:25 am

    I was Never, in all my visits to the doctor to have my first children vaccinated, ever given any information about adverse reactions nor did the doctor mention any at all – ever. I, like so many other parents, blindly trusted the doctor and the whole system and had to find out the hard way.
    Maybe doctors need to be educated regarding these ‘requirements’

    Like

  474. September 8, 2013 at 7:55 am

    @Kyjay – they you should report that doctor, because in the US they are required to give parents a copy of the Vaccine Information Form, which includes all of the reported adverse reactions, along with the relative risks and benefits – my pediatrician also was very upfront in asking if I had any questions both before and after vaccinations…..

    The vast majority of pediatricians are like this….again, you post a lot of “stories” but no actual evidence of anything.

    Like

  475. September 8, 2013 at 8:20 am

    My daughter was disabled at the age of 12 by the Gardasil Vaccine. I am in no way anti vaccine, but I saw first-hand the damage vaccines can do if they are placed in the market without proper due diligence by the FDA, CDC, and Manufacturer, which is this case is Merck.

    Go to http://sanevax.org/ and read the accounts of injury and death related to the Gardasil Vaccine.

    Parents, I warn you to do your research prior to having this vaccine administered to your child. Research how many were killed and injured after receiving Merck’s VIOXX. Don’t let your child be injured.

    I wished I had researched first. I did not allow my son to have the vaccine. My daughter is in the VAERS database as disabled. We, like many other parents have spent in the tens of thousands of dollars trying to seek assistance for our child.

    INVESTIGATE BEFORE YOU VACCINATE! I wish I had.

    Like

  476. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 8:23 am

    so if that litigation cost Merck $4.85 Billion , what must their insurance cost a year? They would be seen as high risk, especially with so many deaths.

    Like

  477. September 8, 2013 at 8:40 am

    @Rosemary – since your Daughter is in VAERS, you’d be happy to let us know how the follow-up investigation went, right? All serious events are investigated, so yours was as well, right?

    Like

  478. September 8, 2013 at 8:43 am

    @Kaz – cars get recalled all the time, does this mean you should stop driving?

    Also, you will admit that since these cases were made public, the CDC & FDA are doing their job, right? Which means that their survellienace systems work to identify risk factors and make improvements in the safety process……so which is it, that Pharma has everyone in their pocket & they can get away with anything or that the Regulators do their job & make sure that drugs and treatments are safe?

    Like

  479. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 10:31 am

    @Rosemary, so sorry to hear about your daughter. There are a few parents here with children damaged by Gardasil including myself. I’m glad your case has been reported. I hope your daughter’s situation at least saves others.
    @Lawrence, how rude, at least show a little compassion, she already said it was reported in the Vaers database.
    And my point with the litigation against Merck, was not so much that it happened (although that in itself is disgraceful , it is the fact that they covered up what they knew for so long .It shows their lack of ethics when it comes to being honest about adverse effects and it shows that their statistics can be taken with a grain of salt. The litigation also uncovered the fact that the so called clinical trials were falsified.

    Like

  480. September 8, 2013 at 10:33 am

    @Kaz – I would love to hear about the follow-up with Rosemary’s case, since if true, it is good information to have. If it was merely an allergic reaction, there isn’t much that can be done – because unless you subscribe to the Nirvana & Perfect World fallacies, there are going to be reactions. The best we can do is track them & make sure they aren’t systemic.

    Again, the information on risk vs. reward is presented quite clearly in the article in the original post. I’m sorry that you are incapable of understanding the Science.

    Like

  481. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 11:04 am

    @Lawrence – when you say “merely an allergic reaction” you make it sound like a mild case of hives when in actual fact an anaphylactic reaction is a serious life threatening event that can cause death. If a drug is shown to trigger anaphylaxis in a number of recipients then the composition is still dangerous with potential to be lethal. The yeast in the drug is one of the triggers as is the aluminium, not to mention the virus particles themselves. If there is a number of people having serious adverse reactions and you want to put it all down to anaphylaxis it is still something the manufacturers need to adjust and treat with concern and change the composition/find alternatives. Any death/disability should not be a warranted outcome of a vaccination

    Like

  482. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 11:06 am

    @ Lawrence- also I just re-read your sentence ” I would love to hear about the follow-up with Rosemary’s case, since if true, it is good information to have” and the part “since if true” is really very offensive to her and insinuates she is being untruthful.

    Like

  483. September 8, 2013 at 11:26 am

    @Kaz – given the way that VAERS entries have looked thus far related to Gardisil, I take any stories with a healthy dose of Skepticism….why don’t you? Why is every “reaction” always true, 100% of the time?

    Did you even read the article above? Because more and more, I am thinking that you have not & you have no ability whatsoever to digest the information that has been provided to you.

    Again, I’m waiting for the actual follow-up investigation to Rosemary’s case – because medical decisions are not made in the absence of real evidence…….”I’ve heard” is not a substitute for proof.

    Like

  484. September 8, 2013 at 11:27 am

    @Kaz – you should also familiarize yourself with the “Perfect World” and “Nirvana” Fallacies – because you are becoming a poster-child for them.

    Like

  485. September 8, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Ms. Mathis:

    My daughter is in the VAERS database as disabled.

    Well good luck with your case with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Remember they even pay the legal fees, and that page has contacts to get lawyers. I would suggest you do not get anyone from SaneVax, since as you can see in Comment #55, the case of one young girl who they were exploiting did not fare well. But the lawyer was paid.

    Kaz:

    Chris, you’ve already said you don’t deny adverse reactions happen and there are hundreds of ‘anecdotal’ stories out there from girls who say they’ve been seriously injured.

    Where? Post the comment number. And so what? I am asking for how the HPV vaccine causes more or equivalent harm than the virus. You remind me of the “Karen” on another thread who thinks she can convince me that fourteen is more than a hundred. Repeating something that is factually wrong does not make it right. And the plural of anecdotes is not data.

    So, again, Kaz, you need to bring up the verified evidence (not VAERS, not stories) that the HPV vaccine causes harm equivalent to or more than these results from the virus:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Either answer the question or go away. Because I will continue to ask it until you do one or the other.

    Like

  486. dingo199
    September 8, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Rosemary, sorry if your daughter had a reaction to this vaccine.
    But that makes it hard for you to view matters relating to the vaccine dispassionately and objectively. But as we have been saying, serious reactions are exceedingly rare, the benefits from the vaccine comprehensively outweighing the risks.

    Like

  487. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    @Chris- you appear to be confused. Where did I say that? I can see Kyjay said that but where did I say it?

    Like

  488. September 8, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    My apologies Kaz. I mix you two up. Okay kyjay said:

    Chris, you’ve already said you don’t deny adverse reactions happen and there are hundreds of ‘anecdotal’ stories out there from girls who say they’ve been seriously injured.

    Where? Post the comment number. And so what? I am asking for how the HPV vaccine causes more or equivalent harm than the virus.

    And both Kaz and Kyjay, please post the verified evidence (ie. not VAERS) that the HPV vaccine causes more or equivalent harm than the virus, as noted from this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  489. September 8, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    @Kaz – how about verified evidence of serious harm from the vaccine in any circumstances…..how about that?

    Like

  490. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Apology accepted Chris

    Like

  491. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    @Lawrence- Here is my post again, it is a fact that Merck produced the drug below and it is a fact that the resulting deaths from this drug cost Merck billions of dollars in litigation. It is also a fact that they were aware of the serious adverse effects long before they withdrew it.It is also a fact that it happens to be the same drug company that manufactures Gardasil.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

    “Merck withdrew the drug after disclosures that it withheld information about rofecoxib’s risks from doctors and patients for over five years, resulting in between 88,000 and 140,000 cases of serious heart disease of which roughly half died.[2] Rofecoxib was one of the most widely used drugs ever to be withdrawn from the market. In the year before withdrawal, Merck had sales revenue of US$2.5 billion from Vioxx.[3]”

    “On November 5, the medical journal The Lancet published a meta-analysis of the available studies on the safety of rofecoxib (Jüni et al., 2004). The authors concluded that, owing to the known cardiovascular risk, rofecoxib should have been withdrawn several years earlier”

    The same drug manufacturer that manufactures Gardasil. It seems their morals and honesty about their products have been proven to be false. How much now are they keeping quiet about? Seeing as litigation has runs into billions for Vioxx/Rofecoxib , where is all that money going to come from? The marketing, the huge push for Gardasil, the denials, all too familiar.

    Like

  492. September 8, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @Kaz – strawman…..”guilt by association” as well? Do you actually have any evidence whatsoever that there is a problem with Gardisil?

    There were concerns with Vioxx that were recognized pretty early on, yet after multiple upon multiple safety studies in various regions of the world, we’re not seeing red flags….so why are you?

    Like

  493. September 8, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    @Kaz – Red Flags with Gardisil, I mean…….given the amount of safety information given in the article above, I’m sure that you are purposely ignoring it…..

    Like

  494. kyjay
    September 8, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    We are real people, Mothers. Not unfeeling robots or ‘data’ machines. We stand nothing to gain from telling our ‘stories’. Follow the money they say…..

    Like

  495. lee
    September 8, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    Again with the utterly redundant statistics from Chris. The words “flogging a dead horse” come to mind. I can’t imagine those numbers would impress even your lackeys, let alone anyone else. By all means keep on pretending those numbers are applicable to only vaccine-types of HPV, applicable to the age group in question and applicable to those who have had regular Pap smears. Perhaps those of the ilk who would believe the fake statistics at the top of the blog will also believe those irrelevant numbers.

    Like

  496. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    @Lawrence, as Vioxx trials were flawed and fabricated how can we trust their ethics and honesty. As they have covered up adverse effects how can we trust them not to do so again?
    Most people worldwide develop brand loyalty, billions of dollars go into creating brand loyalty with all well known products. You know yourself that if you bought an electrical appliance from a manufacturer that caught on fire you wouldn’t be likely to buy from that manufacturer again. If you bought a mobile phone and weren’t happy with it, would you buy your next phone from the same manufacturer. If a producer has a product recalled and thousands die what would you think of their quality control.
    I have had the Australian TGA on the phone to me this morning because they have have had so many complaints about Gardasil that they are very concerned. I have a case number and it was reported by the medical authorities not myself, they are asking me questions about the after effects.

    Like

  497. September 8, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    @Kaz- conspiracy, much?

    And Lee is just completely hopeless…..

    Like

  498. September 8, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    kyjay:

    We are real people, Mothers.

    That is nice. Now answer the question. Please post the verified evidence (ie. not VAERS) that the HPV vaccine causes more or equivalent harm than the virus, as noted from this quote from the above article, which is about thousands of other real people who you seem to be ignoring:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    I am sure their stories are just as compelling as yours.

    Like

  499. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    @Lawrence –
    Since the early development of Rofecoxib, some scientists at Merck were concerned that the drug might adversely affect the cardiovascular system by altering the ratio of prostacyclin to thromboxane, which act in opposition, balancing blood flow and clotting.w1 A study sponsored by Merck during 1996-7 reported that Rofecoxib reduced urinary metabolites of prostacyclin in healthy volunteers by about half.w2 In internal emails made public through litigation,3 Merck officials sought to soften the academic authors’ interpretation that cyclo-oxygenase-2 (COX 2) inhibition within the vascular endothelium may increase the propensity for thrombus formation, the basis of what became known as the FitzGerald hypothesis.w3 The academic authors changed the manuscript at Merck’s request—for example, they changed “systemic biosynthesis of prostacyclin … was decreased by [rofecoxib]” to “Cox-2 may play a role in the systematic biosynthesis of …

    Merck are not honest and upfront. They adjust data to suit themselves. This is not conspiracy, it is a fact

    Like

  500. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    in 2001, Circulation, published a misleading favorable report about the Vioxx’ safety. But documents uncovered during litigation show that the article was severely criticized even by an executive Merck scientist:
    “The data appears to have been interpreted to support a preconceived hypothesis rather than critically reviewing the data to generate hypotheses.”

    Like

  501. lee
    September 8, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Very glad to hear, Kaz, that the TGA are doing some follow-up. And, regarding Merck, we know they still haven’t changed their (seemingly inherent) dishonest practices. As you might remember, I posted this earlier

    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/MerckUnsealed.pdf

    Like

  502. Rob
    September 8, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    Lee, Kaz, and Rosemary, I recommend that you read Hilary Butler’s chapters on Gardasil in From One Prick to Another, pp. 295 to 359. You will learn a lot more facts about Gardasil that will shock you, lots of citations of Merck studies of the vaccine. I’ve been reading your comments, what a great job you’ve done, your passion and knowledge will win the day.

    Like

  503. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @Lee, yes, it looks like they are chasing everyone up that has had adverse reactions so it makes me wonder if there is a review in progress, I think it will be banned in Australia
    I’m not surprised by that Lee (the link).

    Like

  504. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    Thanks Rob

    Like

  505. Kaz
    September 8, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    I see Varicella vaccine is marketed in the US by Merck. When my children were small we had to pay $60 each for them to have this vaccine and the boys that live at the end of my Street also had the vaccine but the rest of the children in our street didn’t have the vaccine as it was an optional vaccine back then. When chicken pox went through the area all the children got chicken pox including my children and the boys that had been vaccinated. So it was ineffective. Another Merck product.

    Like

  506. Gray Falcon
    September 8, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    Kaz, you do realize that Merck isn’t the only party involved here. There are numerous neutral parties that have done several studies. What are you going to do:
    1) Pretend they don’t exist, thus revealing a total lack of integrity.
    2) Accuse them of being in Merck’s pocket, revealing a total lack of integrity.
    3) Trust them, like an honest person.

    Like

  507. lee
    September 8, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Thank you, Rob. That sounds as though it would be an interesting read – have written down the title. Fabulous title, by the way.

    Like

  508. September 8, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    Rob, Kaz, and friends, please provide the verified evidence that the HPV vaccine has caused at least as much injury as the HPV virus. Please no VAERS data, or stuff from self-described researchers like Ms. Butler (who has the dubious distinction of being banned from the Mothering Commune). Please show that the vaccine causes as much harm that has occurred to these very real people who are all daughters and sons of someone, and possibly even parents:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Please do tell us why trying to prevent these cancers is a bad thing… with real scientific studies.

    Like

  509. kyjay
    September 8, 2013 at 11:25 pm

    @ Chris – you’re asking parents of vaccine injured children to care about your statistics. Instead, you should be thanking them for ‘taking one for the team’ and maybe showing some sympathy.

    Like

  510. Gray Falcon
    September 8, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    Kyjay- Does showing sympathy mean abandoning the rest of humanity? Should a hundred innocents die for the sake of one?

    Like

  511. lee
    September 8, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    Kaz, something has occurred to me regarding this information I posted somewhere up above (if you might remember, I mentioned dingo had quoted info from this very same article)

    http://www.obgmanagement.com/topic-collections/oncology/article/2-hpv-vaccines-7-questions-that-you-need-answered/44c503829a06261a91caec849821fcee.html

    “The current postmarketing commitment between Merck and the FDA is to recognize a rate of serious adverse events that exceeds 2 cases in every 10,000 women in a cohort of 44,000 women who have received all three doses of Gardasil. Although autoimmune neurologic sequelae have occurred after Gardasil administration, regulatory authorities are not required to evaluate these reactions, such as Guillain-Barré syndrome, because the frequency is lower than the agreed-upon threshold. Nevertheless, adverse events could be life threatening to some girls.

    Any risk of death—even if it is lower than the agreed-upon threshold—should be presented to women as a possible risk of vaccination with Gardasil. In the United States, the same women could choose a lifetime of Pap screening and be afforded the same protection against cervical cancer as they would get from vaccination.”

    Read again the words “women who have received all three doses of Gardasil”. Does this mean if the person in question has reacted after only the first or second vaccination that it won’t even count as a strike against the Merck arrangement with the FDA?

    If you are talking with the TGA again, it might be worth asking if a similiar arrangement is in place in your own country. Also, it strikes me as almost bizarre that the threshold would actually be allowed to be so high when, for example, the death rate of cervical cancer in Australia from all causes is 1.8 per 100,000.

    Like

  512. September 8, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    kyjay:

    @ Chris – you’re asking parents of vaccine injured children to care about your statistics.

    So you don’t care if people get cancer. Nice.

    Also, we only have your word. You have yet to tell me what comment the is the basis for you saying:

    Chris, you’ve already said you don’t deny adverse reactions happen and there are hundreds of ‘anecdotal’ stories out there from girls who say they’ve been seriously injured.

    Now prove to us with real verified data the the HPV vaccine causes as much harm as the virus as noted in this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Those are daughters, sons, sisters, brothers and possibly parents. Why should they get less sympathy than anyone else? Because you think your family is the only one in the world that matters?

    Like

  513. kyjay
    September 9, 2013 at 12:19 am

    I said ‘out there’ Chris. Not on here. You know, out in the real world where real people live who have real stories of severe adverse reactions whether you choose to believe them or not. Everyone is important and no-one should have to sacrifice their child for ‘the greater good’.

    Like

  514. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 12:26 am

    Kyjay- This isn’t about sacrifices for ‘the greater good’, this is about minimizing risks. Should a hundred innocents die for the sake of one?

    Like

  515. September 9, 2013 at 1:35 am

    kyjay, why do you hate those who have gotten cancer due HPV infection? All you need to do is show that in ” the real world where real people live who have real stories of severe adverse reactions whether you choose to believe them or not.” are greater than the real and documented results of the HPV virus as noted in this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Why don’t they count for the “greater good”? Why is preventing cancer a bad thing?

    Please provide the verified evidence that the HPV vaccine causes at least as much damage as the cancers caused by the virus. Surely you care about those people?

    Like

  516. lee
    September 9, 2013 at 2:57 am

    Kyjay, clearly Chris even now still wishes to pretend that her figures mean something, when clearly they mean nothing in reference to this conversation, and that posting those figures multiple times will make a difference to anyone. It’s so very, very dull and smacks of utter desperation – more so with each posting. And also seemingly wishes to pretend that a future possibility of a cancer diagnosis in an individual somehow rules that person out from having a dangerous reaction to Gardasil.

    Pulling this unsafe vaccine off the market would be a boon for everyone. Keeping it on the market is like saying that a dodgy car should be kept on the road because in decades to come we *might* be able to show you that it was safer for you to drive that dodgy car than for you to walk. Even though walking was working extremely well for you and you would clearly reach the same destination in a far safer fashion. Oh, no, that person didn’t Really have an accident in this dodgy car. And those thousands of people all around the world reporting accidents in the dodgy car? They are just making it all up for fun because they have nothing better to do. And those girls in Japan? Everyone knows that young women would prefer to hang out in a wheelchair than be out there enjoying life to the full. How dare those women tell people to avoid the dodgy car. Everyone who tells people to avoid the dodgy car are anti-car idiots. Waaahhhh.

    Like

  517. September 9, 2013 at 3:16 am

    lee, just provide verifiable better figures. Until then, you are just conspiracy theorist, and not worth the time to deal with your random idiocy.

    Oh, and Japan? A country that let over forty babies die from pertussis and over eighty die from measles. See Comment #50. Your reliance on that country shows how much you despise child health.

    Okay, lee, if you really care you would provide the verified evidence (not VAERS or a random blogger) that the HPV vaccine causes more harm than the virus to these very real people:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    lee, why do you hate people who get sick? Why is preventing cancer bad? Do tell us, but with actua scientificl evidence.

    Like

  518. lee
  519. lee
    September 9, 2013 at 3:49 am

    In case anyone has just tuned in, what Chris is desperately attempting to distract from is this

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/24/national/victims-hit-cervical-cancer-vaccines/#.Uhl4HBs3DZx

    It won’t matter what the Gardasil damage stats are in reference to anything else – Gardasil still won’t be safe and fit for use, and no amount of pretending it is safe will make it so.

    Like

  520. Peggy
    September 9, 2013 at 8:05 am

    But Japan’s SIDS rate sank to lowest in the world when they postponed the pertussis vaccine to two years. And they put a moratorium on the Hib vaccine when it killed babies in March 2011. They make at least some effort to get the dodgy cars off the road. India took the HPV vaccine off the market when it killed girls there, and Spain put a moratorium on it when it caused seizures on girls there. Good for them!

    Like

  521. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 9:10 am

    Peggy, please don’t lie to us. It was already established earlier in the thread that Spain only recalled a single defective batch. You have no excuse to not know that.

    Like

  522. September 9, 2013 at 9:31 am

    @Peggy – lies don’t help your case…..

    Like

  523. Kaz
    September 9, 2013 at 9:47 am

    @Peggy -“moratorium” is too big a word for Gray Falcon.

    @Gray Falcon -“A moratorium is a delay or suspension of an activity or a law”

    BTW the single defective batch was 76,000 doses. That’s a huge recall

    Like

  524. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 9:52 am

    Kaz- I understand what a moratorium is. You seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between “part of something” and “all of something”. Vehicle recalls happen all the time, does that mean we should stop driving?

    Like

  525. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 9:54 am

    By the way, Kaz, the number of Ford Pintos recalled is over three million. That’s a much larger recall, does that mean that all cars are suspect?

    Like

  526. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 10:02 am

    Another fact previously established: In post #50, Chris posted an article showing that Japan’s rejection of the pertussis vaccine lead to an outbreak and eighty deaths from whooping cough, and no doubt several other permanent side effects.

    If there were, in fact, severe side effects associated with the HPV vaccine, you would do well not to use lies and dishonest tactics. Losing the public trust is an excellent way to ruin your cause.

    Like

  527. September 9, 2013 at 11:51 am

    Peggy:

    But Japan’s SIDS rate sank to lowest in the world when they postponed the pertussis vaccine to two years.

    Actually more babies died from pertussis. You can’t blame a vaccine they did not get. I remember reading that particular lie at least a decade ago.

    From Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story:

    After two infants died within 24 h of receiving DTP, the Ministry of Health and Welfare eliminated whole-cell pertussis vaccine altogether. They later allowed it only for children older than 2 years. Pertussis coverage for infants fell from nearly 80% in 1974 to 10% in 1976. A pertussis epidemic occurred in 1979 with more than 13 000 cases and 41 deaths.

    And you folks wonder why we ask for verified evidence with those easily disproven lies still circulating.

    Now, Kaz, kyjay, Peggy, Rob, and others, please post the actual factual verified evidence that the HPV vaccine causes at least as much harm as the virus as noted from this quote from the above article:

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Please no raw VAERS data, weblinks to “researchers” (including one of the only anti-vaccine person who was too crazy for the Mothering Dot Commune), decisions from politicians who have a history of stupid deadly decisions, random anecdotes and goofy conspiracy theories.

    Like

  528. dingo199
    September 9, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Everyone is important and no-one should have to sacrifice their child for ‘the greater good’

    So where does this philosophy take us, as a nation, or as a community?
    No-one should ever wear seatbelts, because seatbelts have been recorded as killing people in accidents? No child should ever be put in a cot, because kids have died after becoming trapped while trying to climb out?

    Take things to their “logical” conclusion…
    No-one should eat, or drink, or breathe, because people have occasionally died from choking, aspirating fluids, or inhaling fumes.

    Good luck with that…

    Like

  529. dingo199
    September 9, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    Dear Kaz/Lee/Kyjay/Peggy,
    The problem lies with your conspiracy-fuelled, evidence free, and irrational framing of the issues around vaccination (and barefaced lies, such as the “Spain has banned HPV vaccine” one, which I see is being repeated)

    Here are a few of your more specious, fallacy-riddled tropes, broken down for clarity by numbering them. (Perhaps we can play Antivax Bingo with you all later?)

    1. A drug company commits fraud or alters study results… So swear you will never trust or use a Pharma product, ever again (especially if it is an evil vaccine).
    [Well, say you won’t, but clearly this is not a useful strategy you employ in the real world, or you probably wouldn’t be alive, but it seems to suit you to cry wolf with certain products when it suits]

    2. Millions suffer from vaccine preventable diseases (cervical cancer included)… But these people can be ignored and dismissed by you, because they are somehow irrelevant to your own little cosy 1st world community where Nirvana fallacies rule, everyone who ever got an infection only benefitted from it, nobody ever died, and no-one ever gets ill (hiding in the herd, it’s called – you can thank other people’s efforts in vaccinating their own kids for this).

    3. Better still, try and blame those who get ill for getting the disease and dying – they just “didn’t get enough Pap smears”, or they “didn’t look after their health”, so the fact they died is their fault, and as long as you and yours “look after your health” you will never die. And your kids will never have sex, nor skip a Pap smear appointment, never ever.
    Yeah, right… Cloud cuckoo land, par excellence.

    4. Your child gets ill after vaccination… So you assume (without any apparent medical corroboration) that the vaccine is to blame. And maybe the vaccine was to blame. Sh1t happens in life, many provaccine advocates (Chris included) have kids who lost out in life’s lottery, or who have autistic kids or kids who have been made ill through sheer bad luck. But we all make choices in life, we all do things that have a degree of risk (see eating, breathing above) because we know that the benefits that accrue are so meaningful and are overwhelming that we are prepared to run the tiny risk that what we do might backfire.

    5. Point out that others have reported problems after vaccination, so this must be a massive issue that outweighs everything else. Pretend vaccine reactions are the rule rather than a rare exception.… But remember to keep this all vague and anecdotal, and you must never seek evidence of medical confirmation. Remember to quote anecdotes from VAERS, even though most of the reports there seem to be spurious, and investigation of deaths from Gardasil over the first three years revealed not one single case that was confirmed as being caused by the vaccine.
    Coincidence happens, you know. [Find me a girl who suffered a Gardasil reaction who hadn’t eaten a Macdonald’s in the previous month, would you? Must be all that toxic beef I reckon. ]

    Like

  530. Utpal Patel
    September 9, 2013 at 4:06 pm

    Gray Falcon, maybe you should consider selling your Ford Pinto now.

    Like

  531. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Gray Falcon, maybe you should consider selling your Ford Pinto now.

    Congratulations. You managed to miss my point about subsets completely, thus failing to understand a concept one usually learns in grade school, but you also failed to even once address the consistent dishonestly of your comrades. The sad part is you actually think you were clever.

    Like

  532. Utpal Patel
    September 9, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Right over your head Gray….I didn’t think I was clever, I was suggesting you sell your Ford Pinto.

    Like

  533. Utpal Patel
    September 9, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Funny how you are so smart and honest and everybody else is dumb, dishonest, and sad? You have much to learn about life young man.

    Like

  534. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    I’m just calling it like I see it. If you keep thinking I’m acting arrogant, I can’t help it if I really am superior to you.

    Like

  535. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    Utpal: To clarify, you really have been dishonest and ignorant. You may complain about how mean we are, but the fact is, if you lie about matters of life and death, you deserve all the scorn we have.

    Like

  536. Utpal Patel
    September 9, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    Get rid of your ego and elitist attitude Gray Falcon, you’ll do much better in life.

    Ouch, I can feel your scorn. Oh it hurts, please stop.

    Like

  537. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    Utpal Patel :
    Get rid of your ego and elitist attitude Gray Falcon, you’ll do much better in life.

    Why shouldn’t I treat you like scum if you act like scum?

    Ouch, I can feel your scorn. Oh it hurts, please stop.

    If it didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t be responding.

    Like

  538. lee
    September 9, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    Utpal, that is so funny. Has cracked me up as much as when kyjay wrote (somewhere, way up there) “Trust no one 😉 ” and Chris took her comment seriously.

    As for the tired old seatbelt comment, it bit the dust long ago, along with the made-up figures being touted as truth on this blog. The scrabbling and scraping and desperate straw-clutching convinces no one Gardasil is fit for use.

    As I pointed out long ago in this thread, people who have blind faith in and blind acceptance of such a vaccine guarantee that the world will never see such a thing as a safe vaccine.

    Actually, Gray Falcon, you had better hang on to that Ford Pinto in case you need to sit in it – because clearly, based on that list of puerile points you posted, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    Like

  539. September 9, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    lee:

    and Chris took her comment seriously.

    Actually, I don’t trust you. Or any of your friends because they have not posted any real evidence, and have a habit of repeating easily refuted lies. Yes, it is true that Japan did not vaccinate for pertussis until age two for a few years. But the lie is that it reduced SIDS, when the truth is more babies died, but it could not be blamed on something they did not get.

    It is very odd that instead of providing real evidence that the HPV vaccine has caused more harm than the virus, we only get insults, conspiracy theories and blatant lies.

    Like

  540. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    lee :
    Utpal, that is so funny. Has cracked me up as much as when kyjay wrote (somewhere, way up there) “Trust no one ” and Chris took her comment seriously.

    My apologies for not being flippant about human life.

    As for the tired old seatbelt comment, it bit the dust long ago, along with the made-up figures being touted as truth on this blog. The scrabbling and scraping and desperate straw-clutching convinces no one Gardasil is fit for use.

    We have evidence supporting those “made-up figures”. And if you can’t understand the concept of analogies, please stop trying to argue with us.

    As I pointed out long ago in this thread, people who have blind faith in and blind acceptance of such a vaccine guarantee that the world will never see such a thing as a safe vaccine.

    We don’t have blind faith, we have evidence. Anyone who reads this thread will know that.

    Actually, Gray Falcon, you had better hang on to that Ford Pinto in case you need to sit in it – because clearly, based on that list of puerile points you posted, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    Which points? That lying is bad? That bringing up “rudeness” as a way to silence dissent is bad? Or that you aren’t the only human beings on the planet?

    Like

  541. novalox
    September 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @lee

    Again, why should we believe a proven liar like you?

    Like

  542. Kaz
    September 9, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    @Gray Falcon – -”A moratorium is a delay or suspension of an activity or a law” . My point was that you said ……..

    “Peggy, please don’t lie to us. It was already established earlier in the thread that Spain only recalled a single defective batch. You have no excuse to not know that.”

    BUT Peggy used the word moratorium, in other words “a delay or suspension” so what she said is 100% accurate.

    You calling her a liar when she basically said the same as what you said makes you look like an idiot!

    Like

  543. Kaz
    September 9, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Utpal Patel- I love your comments. Gray Falcon just has no sense of humour.
    BTW I wouldn’t drive a Ford even if I was given one for free.

    Like

  544. September 9, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    Kaz, lee, Utpal Patel, Peggy, kyjay, please provide the verified evidence that the HPV vaccine causes more injury than noted in this quote from the above article (which is about real people):

    In addition to the 10,300 women who get cervical cancer from HPV infections in the U.S. each year, there are thousands of others in the U.S. diagnosed with other HPV related cancer each year: 2,100 vulvar cancers, 500 vaginal cancers, 600 penile cancers, a combined total of 4,300 anal cancers in both men and women, and 8,400 oropharyngeal cancers in the head, mouth and neck among both men and women.

    Like

  545. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 10:20 pm

    Kaz- The part I took issue with was Peggy’s implication that the vaccine itself was the issue, when only a single batch was concerned. And if you found the “Ford Pinto” comment amusing, it only shows that you’re just as petty a bully as Utpal.

    Like

  546. Kaz
    September 9, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    OMG Gray Falcon, you are so over the top!
    My point was that she was stating it was a temporary ban by the use of the word moratorium and you (the real bully here) called her a liar, when in fact she was no such thing and never said what you accused her of.
    The Ford thing, I thought Uptal Patel added a bit of light relief to an otherwise heated debate. You need to chill.

    Like

  547. Gray Falcon
    September 9, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    My issue was not with the duration of the ban, you are being dishonest when you claim otherwise. She said there was a moratorium on the “HPV vaccine”, which implied that it was the entire product, not a single batch.

    Also, this is a debate over life and death issues. Your refusal to take the possibility of cancer seriously has been noted.

    Like

  548. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 12:32 am

    You really are clutching at straws Gray Falcon.
    BTW remind me to invite you to my next party, I’m sure with you there it will be a blast.

    Like

  549. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 12:33 am

    Oh and bring your notebook so everything “can be noted”

    Like

  550. Gray Falcon
    September 10, 2013 at 12:38 am

    Kaz, she was lying, and you know it. Oh, and that bit about the notebook? I would have found it funny when I was eight.

    Like

  551. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 3:51 am

    @Gray Falcon – you mean last year? Now you’re nine you have become sad and humourless

    Like

  552. dingo199
    September 10, 2013 at 4:19 am

    You know that the antivaxers have lost the argument when they resort to insults, lies and distortions. Even their analogies are hopelessly inept and inapt.

    Fact time:
    There is a vaccine which prevents infection with the oncogenic strains of HPV. HPV related cancers kill thousands of men and women in the USA each year, and millions worldwide. This vaccine has already been shown to dramatically cut the rate of warts and premalignant cervical abnormalities after less than 10 years of use. It appears to be very safe, some rare anecdotal serious reactions notwithstanding (as judged by passive reporting systems like VAERS, with the majority of these reports being shown to be entirely coincidental, not causal).

    The antivaxers argument seems to be “People say the vaccine is bad, so it must be bad, even if I can’t provide any decent evidence it is bad”.

    They have clearly lost the argument, and all they can do is snipe from the sidelines.

    Since they like analogies, I’ll give them another: They are like poker players holding a pair of sixes. They know they have a terrible hand, but they try and bluff others into thinking they have a full house. Sometimes gullible people believe them, but fortunately the truth always wins in the end.

    Like

  553. lee
    September 10, 2013 at 4:23 am

    Novalox, why must you insist on coming across as so very dull and boring. You haven’t had a thing to offer in this entire conversation. Not sure which is more boring – your mundane offerings, or Chris’ repetition of those redundant figures, which she desperately tries to pass of as meaningful in reference to vaccination as she has absolutely nothing else to offer. By all means pop up from time to time and tell people they are lying when you feel that your little loveys have lost the battle of truth. You just might have to keep doing that because they won’t have anything concrete to present to anyone for decades yet. In the meantime the best they can do is tell everyone they are lying about vaccine reactions. If that makes you feel better about the situation, go ahead. Go and follow every single link I’ve posted, Novalox, and then tell the good people on which point I am lying. I’m quite sure I can’t be the only person you’ve completely and utterly bored the pants off. Perhaps we should all go and have our Pap smear done while our pants are down?

    Darn it, Kaz, Gray Falcon outgrew that style of humour at least a whole two years ago. Better luck next time. Can I come to the party, please? Promise I’ll have my pants back on. Unless Novalox keeps up the tedium.

    Like

  554. September 10, 2013 at 5:30 am

    @Lee – given the quality of the VAERS entries that anti-vax individuals so easily cast about as evidence (did you actually read what was reported – “I saw something on the Internet”?) it is very right of us to be skeptical of reaction stories, since the very database that these reactions are supposed to be reported to is full of such garbage……

    All the while, the actual safety studies (which have looked at the rate of reaction in hundreds of thousands of women) show no such link to severe reactions….why do you take anecdotal stories over the real evidence?

    Like

  555. kyjay
    September 10, 2013 at 7:06 am

    “Ultimately, the only evidence that truly matters is anecdotal: what a treatment does to the individual. It matters not if some nonexistent average person might benefit from it. That has little bearing on the individual’s reaction. It matters not if a large proportion of people tolerate a treatment well, if the individual is made ill by it.

    The only medical evidence that truly counts for each person is anecdotal.”

    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-04-11/anecdotal-evidence-the-basis-of-all-knowledge/

    Like

  556. September 10, 2013 at 7:56 am

    @kyjay – so if 99.99999999% of people benefit from a treatment, it should be scrapped because that .000000001% may not?

    You’re not really helping your argument……

    Like

  557. Gray Falcon
    September 10, 2013 at 8:22 am

    @Kyjay: Anecdotal evidence is what largely supported bleeding and leeching.

    Like

  558. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 9:50 am

    @Lawrence – Question ) if there were 99 cars driving behind you on a motorway would you stop for a baby that crawled out onto the road in front of you with potential for 99 cars to have a pile up behind you. Or would run the baby down? After all it is only one life.

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  559. September 10, 2013 at 10:19 am

    @Kaz – on the “rumor” that there was a baby in the road, would you stop suddenly, without seeing for yourself & cause those 99 cars behind you to crash?

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  560. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 10:27 am

    When we discussed Merck’s Vioxx (which was withdrawn for sale) and the Litigation involving their cover-up including changing the wording to make it sound less dangerous it is also the case for Gardasil.

    This is directly from the FDA’s website

    “FDA approved revised labeling on June 9, 2009, to highlight this information in the Warnings and Precautions section, and new information was added noting that individuals who faint sometimes have tonic-clonic (jerking) movements and seizure-like activity”

    They were supposed to mention the seizures on the labelling , what does it actually say in Merck’s own Gardasil leaflet…

    ” Some people who faint might shake or become stiff.”

    Come on Merck, even a lay person knows what a seizure is, there is a big difference in the way that sounds.

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  561. Kaz
    September 10, 2013 at 10:32 am

    @Lawrence – if thousands of people said there was a baby on the road, sheer numbers of reports alone should make you wary enough to think there is a very possibility of a baby on the road.
    But it is not just conjecture, the seizures are factual and warning contained in leaflet.

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