Think Chickenpox is Party Worthy? Think Again
Aug 13, 2013

It’s astonishing to me that there are people who are so dead-set against vaccinating their children that they somehow feel it is safer to sicken their children by exposing them to “wild” disease.  They argue that the “natural” immunity that their child will get (after suffering a long bout of discomfort and risk of complications from an unpredictable illness) will serve them better in the long run than the immunity that is offered through a vaccine.  But they are dangerously mistaken.
It is no secret that vaccine refusers often use social media and various parenting forums to arrange pox parties, facilitate the mailing of infected lollipops to those who live too far to attend, and even advise parents to “pop their child’s chickenpox sores and rub them all over their other children to ensure they all get infected”.
Seriously, I can’t make this stuff up!  This is the kind of advice I read on parenting forums all the time.
JesseLeeBut, what I don’t understand is what makes these parents think that by infecting their children in this way that they are going to be better off than if they had been vaccinated.   The misconception that wild viruses and “natural” immunity are better is just plain wrong.  And what makes chickenpox worse is that these parents aren’t avoiding the disease, but rather purposely infecting their children rather than get them vaccinated.
If parents are going to take their chances with the wild varicella virus, it’s important that they first acknowledge the risks.  While many people may come through a chickenpox infection with nothing more than a few days of ice baths, gallons of calamine lotion and some unsightly scars that linger once the itchy scabs fall off, there are cases in which varicella can result in serious complications, hospitalizations and even death.  While vaccine hesitant parents may proudly declare that they had chickenpox and survived, those that did not are no longer here to tell their story.
Take for example the story of Jesse Lee Newman.  In his story posted at Shot By Shot, in collaboration with vaccine advocate Dorit Reiss, Jesse’s parents share their son’s experience.

“At the last hospital, he went straight to the ICU. That made three hospitals in less than 48 hours. While in a coma, the doctors fought for Jesse’s life. They gave him several kinds of drugs, and hooked him up to every kind of tube known to man.
He was covered in chickenpox lesions at this point. They covered his entire body. He had them in his ears, up his nostrils and under his eyelids. Some infected pox had actually gotten inside his body and caused his pneumonia.”

They go on to talk about Jesse’s passing in detail,

“By that evening, his heart couldn’t take it anymore and failed. His organs just started to shut down. He had chickenpox on his arms and legs, everywhere. He was covered in them. He was read the last rites twice and the Chaplain sang hymn to him. Jesse left the world just before midnight on Saturday, September 1, 2001. He was not yet ten years old.
headstoneTo say we were in shock is an understatement. Our family was shattered. It was hard for anyone to believe that a common childhood disease like chickenpox had taken our son. We always made sure our kids were vaccinated on time for everything. But back then, the vaccine had only recently come out and I didn’t know about it. If I had known, my son would still be here.”

I urge everyone to read Jesse’s story from beginning to end and consider that there is no way to predict how this illness will effect your child.
Prior to the introduction of the varicella vaccine, the disease caused about 10,600 hospitalizations and 100 to 150 deaths in the United States each year.  That’s about one or two deaths a week!
The reality is that infection has the potential, even among healthy persons, to cause severe complications, including secondary bacterial infection and sepsis, pneumonia, encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia, and thrombocytopenia.  Fortunately, two doses of the varicella vaccine is highly effective (about 98%) in preventing severe varicella and deaths, which is why it is routinely recommended to be administration at age 12–15 months and then again at 4–6 years.  According to the Los Angeles Times, a Pediatrics study released earlier this year investigated the effectiveness of the varicella vaccine over a 14 year period, and found that the vaccine reduced the number of cases as much as tenfold in one large cohort of kids.  The study found vaccine effectiveness at the end of the study period to be 90 percent, with no indication of waning over time.
As parents prepare to send their children back to school this fall, we hope that stories like Jesse’s will help them to make the decision to prevent what is preventable and ensure their children receive the varicella vaccine.


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719 responses to “Think Chickenpox is Party Worthy? Think Again”

  1. reissd says:

    I had a discussion about this with a colleague who specializes in family law. there are no cases on point at this point, but she thinks it’s very possible that parents who do not vaccinate and then take a child to a chicken pox party may face charges of criminal neglect if the child dies or is severely injured. I hope we never have a case to test this.

  2. Saul Hymes says:

    Re: the commenter above, I certainly hope that this is the case. It is unacceptable for parents who refuse to vaccinate to be putting both their own and other children at risk without some sort of legal consequence. If you ask me, all vaccines should be mandated by federal law, regardless of which state you live in or where you go to school. The harm or risk from side effects is incredibly minimal and the public good (and private good to that individual family) is immeasurable. With outbreaks of Pertussis nationwide, Measles in NY, etc. there is no excuse for government and law enforcement to continue sitting idly by while parents knowingly inflict harm on their children. Jesse’s story, if anti-vaccine people are allowed to continue without legal ramifications, will only become more common. This has to stop. My two cents.

  3. “there are cases in which varicella can result in serious complications, hospitalizations and even death.” These are from immunocompromised children and older people. The vaccine only lasts 16-25 years depending on if you agree with the Japanese or American study. So we are pumping crap into our children that could permanently cause problems all for 1-2 decades of chicken pox free time, THEN we have 17-26 year olds who aren’t immune, and it is FAR MORE DEADLY for a teenager/young adult to go through chicken pox than a toddler. This vaccine should be outlawed! On top of all that it has chicken albumin in the vaccine and with all the food allergies our kids are facing, the vaccine in and of itself can be fatal.

  4. Lawrence says:

    @Elizabeth – you have citations for any of those assertions of yours?

  5. NK says:

    Elizabeth that’s rubbish. This is a child we are talking about, a healthy happy boy who was not immunocompromised at all. Do you have any sense of common decency at all? Your reasoning is pathetic. If you want us to believe your twisted argument is based on some form of science give us links to prove it. This is an actual child that died and you can’t even be respectful to the family. To you it’s just another way to push your anti vax agenda. Show me the stats of deaths directly caused by varicella vaccine. Until then show some flipping respect.

  6. @Saul- I will NEVER vaccine my children or myself ever again. My daughter was born with a severe birth defect because I was forced to have the flu-vaccine while I was pregnant. I think that pumping our kids full of crap, preservatives, formaldehyde, etc is the culprit for increased food allergies, learning disabilities, ADD/ADHD. To have legal ramifications for refusing vaccines is unconstitutional, if we have to be forced to live in a society where women are allowed to “choose” if their unborn child is to live or die, than how can we turn around and say, you can’t choose if they will live or die with the harmful crap that is vaccines. You can’t have it both ways, either a woman gets to choose or not.

    • reissd says:

      I am sorry your daughter suffered a birth defect, though I would like some evidence that you can relate it to the flu vaccine. The evidence does not support your claim that vaccines lead to food allergies, learning disabilities or ADHD. Your choice argument is unconvincing, because nobody is tying women to a table and vaccinating them or vaccinating their children by force in front of their eyes. But vaccinating is still the safer option compared to not vaccinating.

  7. Lawrence says:

    @elizabeth – again, any actual evidence?

  8. NK says:

    Still no respect you nasty piece of work. Go away and play conspiracy theories with your anti vax mates and leave this little boys family and friends alone. You are a perfect demonstration of the anti vaccination movement and the people in it. Thanks for showing readers your true colours.

  9. And due to thinking like yours Elizabeth, other children will be exposed to various diseases your child may be carrying. Herd immunity does not always work. The idiotic argument that “vaccines cause autism” have been debunked. IT is far more dangerous NOT to have your child immunized and very thoughtless and selfish not to immunize. No thought to others just
    I DONT WANT TO. Was it proven that the immunization gave the birth defect? Thanks to stupidity whopping cough is making a comeback as well as measles. Thank you stupid people we are all NOT enjoying this epidemics.

  10. Someones mom says:

    I agree with Elizabet!!.. unfortunately there are a lot of sheep that can not think for them selves,,, I was vaccinated for everything as a child.. then when I was preggo with my 2nd
    child my 1st (also vaccinated) got measles!! He had even been sitting in my bf lap who was also preggo!! SO I am also VERY worried about these vaccines and these kiddos futures.
    However that all being said I am .considering vaccinating my 2yr old due to the fact that my other daughter has an auto immune disorder (although she has had chicken pox) …
    I dont believe we have all the facts (and prolly wont knowing the medical professions code to protect themselves and each other).

  11. Another Parent says:

    Elizabeth hit it right on the head. Don’t forget if you get the vaccine you will then have a chance to get Shingles too. Lovely

  12. reissd says:

    Someone’s mom, I’m sorry your first child had a measles vaccine failure – very rare thing – but that does not mean that getting the vaccine – which is very effective and dramatically reduces the chances of the disease and its severity – is not the right decision. I hope your daughter stays safe.

  13. reissd says:

    Another Parent, you get shingles from the virus. The vaccine actually reduces your chances of getting shingles: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/08/06/infdis.jit405.abstract “HZ incidence in vaccinated children was 79% lower than in unvaccinated children. Among vaccinated children, half of HZ cases were due to wild-type VZV.”

  14. Lawrence says:

    More sockpuppets at work, it seems – typical that they would ignore real evidence in favor of conspiracy-filled rants…..

  15. You say that it’s rare to “vaccine failure.” WOuldn’t the same be said of that small child suffering from chicken pox? That it’s super rare to have serious complications from the virus itself? I would bet (although I have no numbers) that 99.9% of kids who get pox, come through it just fine and then have lifelong immunity and no need for boosters.

  16. Coriann says:

    Elizabeth, you don’t know what you are talking about. I don’t need a resource or reference to prove you don’t know what you are talking about because the vaccines have only been available since 1995 – that’s only 18 years. So the assertion that it only lasts 16-25 years is based on nothing.

    • Someones mom says:

      Coriann… Sorry hun but before they were used for the mass population they are used on human trails…

  17. Coriann says:

    Someone’s Mom, how old was your child when they got the measles? MMR is given twice so it was likely that your LO’s immunity wasn’t at full capacity. OR if this was 20 something years ago they didn’t realize a booster was needed and there were outbreaks. My friend got the measles when we were 15. I had to get another MMR right away.

  18. Fay Nilsen says:

    Actually Maria you’re wrong. You can get chicken pox more than once as well as shingles. Cheers.

  19. Lawrence says:

    @Maria – this shows how little you actually know about the serious side effects from disease:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/fs-parents.html
    Not to mention that children exposed are at a much higher risk of shingles later in life (my sister-in-law suffered shingles on her eyes, not a happy experience).

  20. Peri Craig says:

    Related information on vaccines:
    McMahon AW, Iskander JK, Haber P, Braun MM, Ball R. Inactivated influenza vaccine (IIV) in children < 2 years of age: Examination of selected adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) after thimerosal-free or thimerosal-containing vaccine.External Web Site Icon Vaccine 2008;26(3):427–429.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093701
    Price CS, Thompson WW, Goodson B, Weintraub ES, Croen LA, Hinrichsen VL, Marcy M, Robertson A, Eriksen E, Lewis E, Bernal P, Shay D, Davis RL, DeStefano F (2010) Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal from Vaccines and Immunoglobins and Risk of Autism Adobe PDF file [PDF – 365 KB]External Web Site Icon. Pediatrics 126(4): 656-664.
    DeStefano F, Bhasin TK, Thompson WW, Yeargin-Allsopp M, Boyle C (2004) Age at first measles-mumps-rubella vaccination in children with autism and school-matched control subjects: a population-based study in metropolitan Atlanta.External Web Site Icon Pediatrics 113: 259–266.http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259
    Now I personally do not know of any vaccines that have been directly linked to problems, however I do have to believe that there is some merit in the regulatory system to protect children. That said, I also do not believe that all dangers or complications are immediately known, nor that they may be completely understood as soon as we might wish. Thalidomide given to pregnant women was a prime example and, unfortunately, is not an isolated incident, as the following points out:
    "Recent estimates from CDC's Autism Developmental Disabilities Monitoring network found that about 1 in 88 children have ASD. This estimate is higher than estimates from the early 1990s. Over the years, some people have had concerns that autism might be linked to the vaccines children receive. One vaccine ingredient that has been studied specifically is thimerosal, previously used as a preservative in many recommended childhood vaccines. However, in 2001 thimerosal was removed or reduced to trace amounts in all childhood vaccines except for one type of influenza vaccine, and thimerosal-free alternatives are available for influenza vaccine. " http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/Index.html
    I think it is imperative for every mother or mother-to-be to do their own research and to consider, very carefully weighing ALL the pros and cons, what is best for their child and their circumstance. It is equally imperative for all of us to recognize that is IS a choice, hopefully a well-informed choice, and to follow suit by doing our own research and vaccinating … or not … as we determine appropriate. For those believing that the government should mandate vaccinations under some threat or penalty if there is not compliance, I would suggest that you vaccinate your own family, thus safe-guarding them from the free choice given to others while exercising your own.

    • reissd says:

      The studies your prevented are excellent evidence that vaccine safety is carefully monitored and studied. When scientists say that the benefits of vaccines are higher than the risks, and the risks of not vaccinating higher than vaccinating, and that vaccines cause autism, they are basing it on many, many studies like you provided. Your own link continues: “Evidence from several studies examining trends in vaccine use and changes in autism frequency does not support such an association between thimerosal and autism. Furthermore, a scientific review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that “the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal–containing vaccines and autism.” CDC supports the IOM conclusion that there is no relationship between vaccines containing thimerosal and autism rates in children.
      The IOM also recently conducted a thorough review of the current medical and scientific evidence on vaccines and certain health events that may be observed after vaccination. It released a report in August 2011 on 8 vaccines given to children and adults that found the vaccines to be generally safe and serious adverse events following these vaccinations to be rare.”
      Anyone who does their research would realize that for all but the few children who have a medical contraindication, vaccinating is the right choice.

  21. reissd says:

    While I do not support mandating vaccines – in the sense of jailing or fining those who do not vaccinate – it is not as simple as “it’s a choice”. Parents make that choice for their vulnerable children, and may decide to leave those children – who do not have a say – vulnerable to dangerous diseases; and the decision not to vaccinate may expose others to dangers, since unvaccinated children are more vulnerable to diseases and may infect the too young or too ill to vaccinate, and declining rates of vaccination also increase the risk of outbreaks, putting anyone who suffers vaccine failure – small as that percentage is for most vaccines – at risk.

  22. Lawrence says:

    Vaccinating your children is as much to protect others who cannot be vaccinated (for valid medical reasons) as protecting them. We have the ability to eradicate a number of diseases, including mumps and measles – for example, because they have no hosts outside of humans….why do anti-vax individuals hate disease eradication so much? Are they pro-disease and pro-suffering?

  23. Lawrence says:

    @Reissd – to do things like attend public schools or conduct business in a public environment, society has the right to mandate that good health policies (like vaccines) are followed to allow for full participation….if people don’t like it, they have a choice not to participate (for example, homeschool their children).
    A person’s choice not to vaccinate should not be allowed to put the greater society at risk for disease outbreaks which cause much more suffering….in the past, those individuals were routinely quarantined against their will. Now we have a much better and safer solution, vaccines.

    • reissd says:

      I think it’s partly a definition issue, Lawrence. I don’t consider school immunization requirements a mandate, because people do have choices. For me a mandate is making it a crime not to vaccinate. I support school requirements, and torts liability if an unvaccinated child infects another. I have more mixed feelings about other public spaces.

  24. Saul Hymes says:

    @Maria: “Prior to the introduction of the varicella vaccine, the disease caused about 10,600 hospitalizations and 100 to 150 deaths in the United States each year. That’s about one or two deaths a week.” While there may have been many more cases of varicella, these hospitalization numbers and deaths are too high to be acceptable, hence the reason for the vaccine. Complications known to occur from varicella vaccine in immunologically normal children are mild and not anywhere close to the severity level of a hospitalization or certainly death. It is absolutely preferable to have the vaccine, which essentially does not expose you to risk of death or hospitalization, over the disease which does.
    @Elizabeth: I agree with some of the previous commenters, I am sorry your daughter had a birth defect but I can tell you, as a pediatrician and pediatric infectious disease doctor myself, I really do not think this was due to the flu vaccine. The inactivated flu vaccine is safe in pregnancy but the live inhaled flu vaccine is not and is known not to be. If you were given this live vaccine, that was a mistake on your doctor’s part, for which I am also sorry but that is hardly an indictment against the vaccine itself or the industry. I too would love to see data for your claims about vaccines causing the various problems you list, though I imagine you will have a hard time producing that data as EVERY study done to date has discounted the claims of the anti-vaccine movement and upheld that vaccines are safe and effective.
    Finally, to continue addressing your point, Elizabeth, regarding the constitutionality of vaccine mandates or comparing it to abortion, there is nothing in the constitution about vaccines or medical care or anything of that sort. Yes there are protections for free speech and case law has established that behavior often constitutes speech in this regard. HOWEVER, there is also supreme court case law that establishes that free speech does not permit saying or doing things that causes harm to others (Schenck v. United States in 1919). I absolutely believe that you and every other woman have the right to choose whether to have an abortion. That is a woman’s right because it affects them and their unborn child alone. However, choosing to not vaccinate one’s own child puts tens, hundreds, potentially thousands of other children at risk (one child with measles can expose thousands in a crowded setting). Not vaccinating is not a personal choice–it is a choice that affects society and thus society could and should have potentially every right to regulate it.

  25. kep says:

    The inactivated influenza vaccination has not been associated with birth defects. As an Ob/Gyn physician, I recommend that all of my pregnant patients receive the influenza vaccination. Pregnant women are at an increased risk of severe influenza infection requiring hospitalization. In fact, there have been studies showing that children of women who had influenza during pregnancy have higher rates of autism. Wouldn’t it be ironic, if one of the possible causes of autism could have been prevented by getting a vaccination (rather than avoiding all vaccinations)???

    • Elizabeth says:

      Unfortunately I was given the live vaccine, not the one “safe” for pregnant women when I was about 8 weeks pregnant. My daughter has Arnold Chiari Malformation which is a petty severe and lifelong consequence of being FORCED to have a vaccine

      • Saul Hymes says:

        Elizabeth, I am truly sorry that your daughter has that issue. As I said, the live vaccine certainly is contraindicated in pregnancy and I hope you were given it because the pregnancy was not known at the time, rather than that your doctor was unaware of what vaccines are safe in pregnancy and which are not. I am not familiar with any literature linking live flu vaccine with arnold-chiari malformations, so I still would say it is unlikely this is a vaccine-related issue.
        I too am a parent, not just a pediatrician, and I trust these vaccines enough to give them to my own children. These diseases are no joke. In the past 4 years I have taken care of completely normal children who have wound up in the ICU from chicken pox, gone deaf from Hemophilus (the bacteria vaccinated against by Hib), been on a ventilator from whooping cough, and exposed 600 people to measles from just their one case. These diseases are real and are around _right now_. The outcomes are real. The science is real. I know I cannot convince you to vaccinate, but those of us in the medical community and outside it who feel strongly about vaccines do so from a point of knowledge, experience, and true concern for the lives and livelihoods of our patients.

    • Elizabeth says:

      Unfortunately I was given the live vaccine, not the one “safe” for pregnant women when I was about 8 weeks pregnant. My daughter has Arnold Chiari Malformation which is a petty severe and lifelong consequence of being FORCED to have a vaccine
      And yes I have resources to back my statements, ranging from experts such as Dr Sears to scientific studies done in Japan.
      And as for claims the vaccine has only been available since 1995, yes ON THE MARKET. The FDA and other international groups like it have been studying the vaccine way before it was allowed to come to market. If I said “I have an AIDs/HIV vaccine and I’m selling it starting tomorrow!” You damn well better believe I have multiple studies showing its side effects, adverse reactions, proof that it works. You can’t just make a potion up one day and sell it the next.
      And IF vaccines injuries and mishaps are so rare why are the federally funded organizations for people who have suffered yet there is no organization providing support and financial aid for the less than 100 cases a year of severe chicken pox reactions.
      Finally what is being suggested and what was done to me and anyone else who serves in the military is forcing vaccines on unwilling people. We might not be tied down to a table but we face severe repercussions if we refuse, forfeiture of pay, reduced rank, jail time even up to dishonorable discharge, which pretty much prevents you from getting another job and screws up the rest of your life.

  26. Linda Seba says:

    I get your discussion regarding vaccinations, really. If you are going to mandate that and take away the right to choose, will you please take away the right to choose abortion?! It kills more children than failure to vaccinate and I don’t see anyone of you worrying about that.

  27. Chris says:

    Elizabeth:

    And IF vaccines injuries and mishaps are so rare why are the federally funded organizations for people who have suffered yet there is no organization providing support and financial aid for the less than 100 cases a year of severe chicken pox reactions.

    Because the vaccine manufacturers were shutting down and not creating enough vaccines for children due to having to deal with lawsuits, many without merit. So it was established to look at the cases with real science, and even include a table of injuries that would have an almost automatic compensation without any kind of proof. It is explained here:
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html
    Now, even with that, look at the table of compensation for the last 20+ years:
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html
    There have been a total of 3320 cases compensated for since 1988. Since about four million children are born each, that is a small number compared to the billions of vaccine doses given since 1988 in the USA. You would have to come up with more evidence that vaccines are dangerous than one anecdote. Especially since I personally think it is cruel to let children suffer with dozens of open itchy wounds (pox) when it is preventable with a couple of quickly administered varicella vaccines.
    Perhaps I should claim that the absolutely horrible and miserable flu I had when I was pregnant was the cause of my son’s neonatal seizures, subsequent speech disorder and finally some abnormal heart anatomy that had to be fixed with surgery. Perhaps his heart grew abnormally because he did get chicken pox a year before the vaccine was available.
    That sounds just as plausible as your child being born with a something that according to the Wiki article occurs in about one in a thousand, though not always as severe. By the way, according to the literature hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (my son has the obstructive type, hence the surgery) occurs in about one in five hundred. There are eighteen known genetic sequences that cause it, but my son tested negative or all of them. So perhaps it was actually getting chicken pox that caused the heart muscle to grow where it almost blocked a valve!

  28. mary says:

    linking vaccinations to abortion is ridiculous. that’s about the same as saying watching a Disney movie will give you toe fungus..lets take a look at what vaccinations have accomplished. (choosing to NOT bring a life into this world for what ever reason is not the same as purposely giving a disease to child you have decided TO bring into this world) the statistics about the number of people who died in hospitals from chicken pox doesn’t even take into account the ones who died while NOT being hospitalized. polio…gone…how many other diseases were a death sentence and now we either do not have, or if you do get it it is nowhere near as bad as it would have been. vaccines do not cause all of the problems that crazy fanatics claim.
    to the woman whos child was born with a birth defect from being FORCED to have the flu vaccine…I am willing to bet that you have sued the doctor, the insurance company, the hospital and whoever it was that FORCED you to have this vaccination. in which case, you would have WON had this been true and must now be on a list of wealthiest women.
    let me also say that I am the spouse of a soldier, prior military, and come from an all military family for GENERATIONS. as such it is pretty common knowledge that you have no choice about getting shots that general population get as well as some pretty crazy ones that people don’t get unless they are traveling to 3rd world places…let me bring up a few points…WHY do you get them to go to 3rd world countries?? because they don’t vaccinate so they have many more diseases. strangely to know they still have things like AUTISM (SHOCK ITS NOT FROM VACCINES), birth defects, and a vast array of issues. as well as high mortality rates. and..i hate to point out, our vaccinated guys are so rarely getting sick from diseases they are vaccinated for while people not vaccinated get sick…oops..i guess vaccinations work.
    ALSO.. having my babies in a MILLITARY (government) hospital you would think this would be where people are FORCED to have vaccinations while pregnant..guess what…its not. you don’t HAVE to get anything while pregnant. so if the govt isn’t forcing us to have this vaccination while pregnant at a govt facility while you are government property, who forced you to have it?
    if you don’t want to vaccinate your children for fear of the boogey man…fine…but I am and always will be against forcing other people to get sick because you don’t take precautions and get sick. I think that there should be a law making it child abuse and child endangerment to have something like a chicken pox party. or smearing candy on pustules and giving it to your kids to purposely give them the disease. how sick do you have to be??? where do we then draw the line? my kid could get aids at some point in life, so ill just have them exposed to it on purpose so I KNOW they will get it??? schools and daycares don’t want you to send kids who are sick for a reason. im sure we all are upset if a co worker comes in sick and then we get ill…what is the purpose of making your child ill?? (muchausen by proxy?????)

  29. dingo199 says:

    Elizabeth, like others I am sorry to hear your child was born with a congenital Arnold-Chiari malformation. However, this problem is the result of a mutation, usually spontaneous, and not linked with any known vaccination, so this is probably entirely coincidental.
    There is absolutely nothing I can find through my usual medical sources such as PubMed, Google scholar or UpToDate about anything relating to vaccines and Arnold Chiari malformations. If this was due to the flu vaccination, this would be a newly recognized side effect and should have been written up in the medical journals by your Pediatric Neurologist.
    As Saul says, if you were “forced” to have live flu vaccine when you were pregnant, then I expect you must have sued your doctor for this and put in a claim for medical negligence. How did that work out? And I assume you have also put in a claim for vaccine damages too? How did that go?
    Regarding Chickenpox, you do not seem to understand that natural infection does not lead to what you think is “lifelong” immunity. In fact immunity to natural chickenpox declines steadily over time, which is why the dormant infection very often re-emerges later in life as an attack of shingles, as the immunity keeping it in check wanes.
    Protective immunity after natural infection as opposed to vaccination is not as simple as you would seem to think. It is never a question of natural infection “always” induces lifelong immunity, or that vaccine-induced immunity is “always” short term. For instance, natural infection with diseases like tetanus, or typhoid do not lead to any protective immunity at all, and there are many vaccines which provide very substantial long term immunity.
    The idea that natural immunity is always “better” is a complete myth, and please recall that in order to obtain the “natural immunity” one has to run the risk that the disease itself will injure or kill your child (the risks of which far outweigh any risk from a vaccine).

  30. bluestar says:

    Elizabeth, You think this is all about you??? Show some respect to the family that lost their son at the beginning of this page. What a true selfish piece of work you are!

  31. dad*3 says:

    Seat belts, safety glasses, work gloves . . . all useless according to this logic. The percentage of those who lose their eyesight is minimal so why should I wear safety glasses – they’re uncomfortable. I don’t think that I should use seat belts because the number of people who are injured in an accident without seat belts is very low (OK so I made that up – but I think that’s OK on this forum – right?). And work gloves – seriously I have 10 fingers do I really need them all. Sounds pretty stupid when I use these comparisons doesn’t it? Vaccines save lives. They are not 100% guaranteed but they expose our bodies in a controlled manner so that we have the best chance of beating the disease in the future.

  32. Lawrence says:

    @dad – actually, the analogy is that seat belts can still cause injuries (in an accident) but that the “injury” is less than what would have occurred without a seatbelt in the first place.
    Vaccines are actually even better – since the risk of any type of adverse reaction (even a mild one) is extremely low, with actual severe reactions being much lower and extremely rare – certainly many magnitudes lower than the risk of a severe reaction to any vaccine (as pointed out in the article above, where a child died of a VPD).
    Vaccine preventable diseases easily kill millions of children, worldwide, every year. Up to 17% of worldwide child mortality is a result of VPDs – and the overall safety profile of vaccines is excellent. Why on Earth would someone want to take a chance on a disease that can kill or even severely injure in as few as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 cases, as opposed to a vaccine?

    • Someones mom says:

      First as was stated much earlier the problem being (since this was about chicken pox vac in the beginning) the proof is not in that the vac will last that long .. lets say I vac my child and then at say 30 years of age they get chicken pox. What do you think their chances are then? …
      And one more thing I get soooo sick of 1 in ?? 10 in ?? …. To any parent it doesnt matter what the stats are if it is YOUR child,,, period

  33. Chris says:

    Lawrence, dad*3 is being sarcastic. Essentially showing who Elizabeth’s claim ” less than 100 cases a year of severe chicken pox reactions” is kind of silly. Just like I used her logic to speculate that actually getting chicken pox cause the heart muscle obstruction in my kid.
    Though, since actually getting full blown influenza when I was pregnant I have a better case of harm to my child than someone getting a vaccine. Same with the child getting a full blown and very nasty case of chicken pox versus the vaccine.

  34. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – yeah, I knew that & I hope my response didn’t come off as not agreeing with him…

  35. Another Parent says:

    Dad3: You sound very silly and obviously completely miss the point. The part you are leaving out is that wearing gloves, glasses, and seat belts don’t put you at any risk. You do risk getting injured by vaccine, either immediately, or possible down the road with an autoimmune disease. Sorry, comparing seat belts to vaccines just doesn’t work.

  36. Another Parent says:

    reissd: The fact is, you can not get Shingles if you haven’t ever gotten ck pox or the ck pox vaccine.

    • reissd says:

      Another Parent: you cannot get shingles without being exposed to the Chicken Pox virus. Before the vaccine, everyone was exposed to the wild virus. Of course, now you can try and hide in the herd and take advantage of the fact that others vaccinate and hope it protects you. It’s a risk.

  37. Another Parent says:

    reissd: Agreed….so you can get the vaccine and then be at risk for Shingles or not get the vaccine and have risk of getting wild ck pox, but no risk of Shingles, unless you eventually do get the wild ck pox. Seems like a no-brainer not to get the vaccine.

  38. Chris says:

    Another Parent:

    You do risk getting injured by vaccine, either immediately, or possible down the road with an autoimmune disease.

    Citation needed. Some examples:
    Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112
    Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.
    Pediatrics. 2007 Nov;120(5):e1269-77.
    Is childhood vaccination associated with asthma? A meta-analysis of observational studies.
    riessd:

    Before the vaccine, everyone was exposed to the wild virus.

    My nineteen year old daughter got chicken pox when she was six months old a year before the vaccine came out. I use her as a gauge to figure that anyone younger than her have higher chance of no history of getting chicken pox. So “Another Parent’s” comment on never getting the disease or vaccine would only apply to those born after 1995 or so.
    Even still, chicken pox is still circulating. Any child of “Another Parent” could get exposed to it, especially if he/she hangs around with like thinking parents.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      As a point of clarification, you can absolutely get shingles with the vaccine but it’s much less likely than with the wild type virus. So the balance of whether its worth doing is not as Another Parent illustrates it. Regardless it is worth getting the vaccine to protect, as all have been saying, against the sequelae of chicken pox.

      • Someones mom says:

        Still would like to know what makes a “wild” virus …. and are there tame ones???

        • Saul Hymes says:

          Yes there are tame ones–the weakened but still live viruses in live viral vaccines, of which chicken pox is one. The name given to the virus out in the community is wild-type as opposed to vaccine-type which is the weakened virus in the vaccine.

  39. novalox says:

    @another parent
    You do know that you have a higher risk of getting shingles if you get the wild-type chicken pox virus and that a person who gets the chicken pox has a more severe case of shingles than if you get the chicken pox vaccine, right?
    Also, [citation needed] for you claims.

  40. Another Parent says:

    Saul: It is exactly how I explained it. If you don’t ever get ck pox or the ck poc vaccine, you have no chance of getting Shingles. Period.
    novalox: No I don’t know that. Citation needed for your claim.
    Chris: You misquoted me. Somebody else made that comment.

  41. Lawrence says:

    Hmmmm……not get the vaccine, get the Chicken Pox & die (as the tragic situation above illustrates) or get the vaccine with its extremely minimal risks, not get the Chicken Pox & still have an extremely low risk of Shingles in the future (and you can get another vaccine to prevent Shingles).
    Seems like a good bet to me. So what’s the problem “Another Parent?” Since you can’t provide any actual evidence to the contrary.

  42. Chris says:

    Okay, here is what I quoted in bold, explain what part is you or not you, because I cut and pasted from Comment #44… So, yeah, citation needed:
    Another Parent
    August 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm | #44
    Quote
    Dad3: You sound very silly and obviously completely miss the point. The part you are leaving out is that wearing gloves, glasses, and seat belts don’t put you at any risk. You do risk getting injured by vaccine, either immediately, or possible down the road with an autoimmune disease. Sorry, comparing seat belts to vaccines just doesn’t work

  43. novalox says:

    @another parent
    Sorry, that’s not how it goes. You made the assertion first, you provide the evidence.
    So, [citation needed] within 3 posts, or we can all assume that you admit that you position is not valid and that you are actively lying
    I’ll be waiting.
    @someones mom
    For the chickenpox vaccine, the viruses are weakened to a point that they cannot cause actual disease or its sequelae but are enough to cause an immune response that can confer immunity to the vaccinated person so that they cannot get the disease or spread the full disease to others.
    A bit simple, yes. (someone who knows more about immunology can expand on this)

  44. Lawrence says:

    @Someones – all of the evidence points to the contrary, that the vaccine is long-lasting & very effective. Unless you have evidence otherwise, you’re falling victim to the “Perfect World” and Nirvana Fallacies.

  45. dingo199 says:

    I do understand the concern about waning immunity from the vaccines, and then the susceptibility of someone to an attack of the disease after this happens. We know that diseases like chickenpox, mumps and measles can be more severe in adults. So people will say: “Isn’t it better to get the disease as a child, when it is less likely to be serious, than to get vaccinated as a child but still end up catching the disease anyway as an older adult and being iller?”
    That isn’t an unreasonable question when framed in those terms.
    However, we also know that even if vaccine immunity were to wane sufficiently for someone to catch a dose of the natural infection later in life, the illness is almost always LESS severe than it would be otherwise. This is because protective immunity may wane sufficiently for the individual to become vulnerable to acquiring infection, but there is still residual and probably life long immunity at a lower level which mitigates the full effects of the infection. Indeed in some cases the infection may well be entirely “subclinical”, requiring blood assays to establish that it even happened.

  46. dingo199 says:

    The usual antivaccine take on shingles is that if it ocurs following a chickenpox vaccine it is a “horrible, dreadful complication”, but if it occurs “naturally” (ie after naturally acquired chickenpox) that is an absolute breeze.
    There is an easy way to prevent shingles.
    Everyone (whether they have had natural chickenpox or had the chickenpox vaccine) should get an immune booster through having the shingles vaccine when they are about 60 or so.
    Simple.

    • Someones mom says:

      Sorry that isnt always the answer to preventing it either … I had Shingles in my 20’s … and as for chicken pox my brother and nephew both had it 2X

  47. Lawrence says:

    @Someones – sounds like an even better reason to get the vaccine.

  48. Chris says:

    Also, Someone’s Mom, you must have had chicken pox at a very young age. My daughter has a very high chance of getting shingles in her twenties because she had chicken pox when she was a six month old baby. This was before there was a vaccine.
    Also, I think my middle child had chicken pox twice. The first time it seemed he had very few pox, and then a few months later he was covered. So it is possible to get the actual disease more than once.
    The vaccine has been in the USA for less than twenty years. It takes time to cover anyone. Also, you can get the shingles vaccine as early as age fifty, often at a pharmacy. Because you might end up with a another shingles flare up, the virus has never left your body.

  49. Peri Craig says:

    @bluestar: No, Elizabeth does NOT think this is “all about her,” however she IS a parent with first-hand knowledge of potential repercussions to unborn children because of vaccination while pregnant. As to “respect and sympathy” to the parents of the child in the article, THEY did not write the article. I think we ALL are sympathetic to the family, however this is not a eulogy but a forum for discussing the potential merits AND risks to children if they, or their parents, receive certain vaccines.
    NOT all vaccines are completely 100% without risk to children, be they born or pre-born, and the wonder-wizards of medical science and the FDA are not 100% certain of many vaccines currently on the market … that’s why they still look at them, tweak them and try to make them SAFER.
    I still maintain that rather than engaging in a tirade over your children being at risk because of unvaccinated children that might come into contact with your child, vaccinate your own child.
    @ Chris: You are quite correct; chicken pox can be contracted a second time, and can indeed be contracted even with vaccination (though it tends to be less severe in that case). Measles can also be contracted repeatedly, and those who are concerned for their grandchildren should get a repeat vaccination to help protect them.
    In my own case, my eldest son had a severe reaction as an infant to his first DPT vaccination, and had to receive only Diphtheria and Tetanus vaccinations (without the Pertussis vaccine) until he was five years old., at which point he received a modified Pertussis vaccine with no problem.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      @Peri: we all _do_ vaccinate our own children but the reason for the concern and even tirade as well is that vaccines are not ever 100% effective as Lawrence so excellently explained–If herd immunity breaks down because of a population of unvaccinated kids, as exists now, the disease can begin to propagate and if it does so, can affect even vaccinated children. By parents who don’t vaccinate their children choosing to not do so, they are putting MY children at risk even though I choose to vaccinate. So my choice to vaccinate is not the only thing that impacts my children’s health. Others’ decisions about vaccination does also. And of course the contrary is that by vaccinating my own kids I harm nobody else. So how is this equation fair? I vaccinate, try to protect my kids, and harm nobody else. Someone else does not vaccinate, risks their own child, and risks my own. Seems like an easy decision to me. And the decision you and your doctor made regarding the DTP is absolutely correct–a severe vaccine reaction is usually an appropriate contraindication to future vaccination.

  50. Chris says:

    Peri Craig: ” Measles can also be contracted repeatedly, and those who are concerned for their grandchildren should get a repeat vaccination to help protect them.”
    Citation needed. I know you can get mumps more than once, but this is the first time I have heard about this for measles.

  51. Lawrence says:

    @Peri – please stop it with the “straw man.” No one here has ever claimed that vaccines are 100% safe or 100% effective – that is a Nirvana or Perfect World fallacy. But, they are many times (by multiple magnitudes) safer then the diseases that they prevent.
    Since vaccines aren’t 100% effective (and there are numerous children, who for valid medical reasons, cannot be vaccinated), it behooves everyone who can receive a vaccine do so, for the sake of not only themselves but for those that cannot – herd immunity is real & helps protect us all by denying these diseases the foothold that they need to start circulating in the general population again (and we’ve already seen what a breakdown of herd immunity looks like in Europe).
    And before anyone says anything, adverse reactions do occur, but they are extremely rare, well tracked, and certainly happen much less frequently than the very real and potentially severe side-effects from disease.

  52. Chris says:

    Saul Hymes:

    And the decision you and your doctor made regarding the DTP is absolutely correct–a severe vaccine reaction is usually an appropriate contraindication to future vaccination.

    And the child needed protection from pertussis through herd immunity.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      Amen to that, @Chris–well said! Yes, @Peri, your child benefitted from the vaccinations of others–even more reason to vaccinate as many as possible.

  53. dingo199 says:

    Peri Craig :@bluestar: No, Elizabeth does NOT think this is “all about her..”blockquote>
    You will I hope have noted this article was about a perfectly healthy young boy who died from severe varicella infection.
    Elizabeth’s first “contribution” to the discussion was to claim: “These [deaths] are from immunocompromised children and older people”, in other words completely denying the reality of infection with chickenpox and how it affects families like Jesse’s. She then went on a rant about her own experience with vaccines full of “crap” and unevidenced claims of vaccine damage. Maybe Elizabeth genuinely thinks this is not all about her. If so she is disguising her thoughts exceedingly well.

  54. dingo199 says:

    Sorry blockquote fail…
    Peri:

    No, Elizabeth does NOT think this is “all about her..

    You will I hope have noted this article was about a perfectly healthy young boy who died from severe varicella infection.
    Elizabeth’s first “contribution” to the discussion was to claim: “These [deaths] are from immunocompromised children and older people”, in other words completely denying the reality of infection with chickenpox and how it affects families like Jesse’s. She then went on a rant about her own experience with vaccines full of “crap” and unevidenced claims of vaccine damage. Maybe Elizabeth genuinely thinks this is not all about her. If so she is disguising her thoughts exceedingly well.

  55. Kellie says:

    Elizabeth,
    If I were you, I’d file criminal charges against the individual(s) who held you down and forced you to inhale the live flu virus. Any IDIOT knows you don’t give a pregnant woman or immunocompromised people a LIVE virus. My kids get it (because it works better & lasts longer than the shot) but I don’t because I’m an oncology nurse and work with immunocompromised children every day. My children (4 girls) have been vaccinated since birth and rarely miss school b/c of illness. My oldest has missed maybe 4 days in almost 17 years. Vaccines work! I don’t think any parent has the right to send their child to school without being vaccinated. Would you send your child to school knowing he/she had a cold, flu, etc? Would you knowingly infect other kids? If not, then vaccinate your child! Or stay out my child’s school.

    • Someones mom says:

      Wow Kellie ,,, first I suggest anger management classes..second I hope as a nurse you were trained in compassion and should not call any one an idiot (prolly should have learned that in 2nd grade) so your oldest took 17 years to finish school and only missed 4 days ?? so she went to school with colds or never had a cold?? because I dont think there is a vac for a cold? maybe there is something new or maybe your girls are just very healthy ..
      I think a lot of you have missed the part that these parties have been around a VERY long time …
      and the other part that NO one is able to price (beyond a shadow of a doubt) is that these vacs are going to protect these children for ever.. not just for the next 20 years or so.
      And lastly as a parent these are just some of the tough decisions that we must make, jumping on each other and blaming each other is not helpful.,.. again I will say I dont make my decision lightly and I know it will seeming like the right or wrong one only in hind sight, if I give my child the vac and the dont EVER get chickenpox / adverse reactions then I made the right choice,.,, HOWEVER (and this is what weighs heavily on my heart and mind) If I get her/ him vac and they in 25 or so years get chicken pox they will most likely die from it. OR if I dont and they get chicken pox and die from that then I am in the same spot,.,,
      I dont want numbers to tell me the chances are —- —… That doesnt help if your child is the one in 999999million that is the one that matters

  56. Chris says:

    Someones mom, you need to get your sarcasm meter adjusted. Plus she was calling the doctor an “idiot” for letting a pregnant woman get the live influenza.
    And for this: “If I get her/ him vac and they in 25 or so years get chicken pox they will most likely die from it. OR if I dont and they get chicken pox and die from that then I am in the same spot,.,, ”
    Citation needed. Because right now if you have not vaccinated them for varicella, they have a higher chance of getting it closer to now since it is still circulating. We can hope that in 25 years that will no longer be the case if a certain percentage of children get two doses.
    Remember the vaccine has only been around for nineteen years, it takes time for it to go away. Even longer with parents like you who only want perfect vaccines (not going to happen in the real world, because there is no such thing as 100% perfection).

  57. Lawrence says:

    @Someone’s – how about if your children are one of those detailed above? Those chances are much higher (by magnitudes or more)……so, in your mind the chance of death is preferable to an extremely safe and effective vaccine?

  58. dingo199 says:

    Someones mom :
    I dont want numbers to tell me the chances are —- —… That doesnt help if your child is the one in 999999million that is the one that matters

    This is a form of denial merged in with the Nirvana fallacy.
    Everything in life has risks, and we need to balance these and decide how we are able to live our lives in consequence. Your claim that “it doesn’t help if your child is the one in 9999999 million” demonstrates this pretty neatly.
    I assume you never drive a car (30 million road deaths per year), or even let your kid play in the back yard (certainly this causes death more frequently than one in 999999 million). Yet because vaccines have a very low rate of serious reactions, you are prepared to deny them the considerable benefits of having them.

  59. Peri Craig says:

    @someones mom:
    “as a parent these are just some of the tough decisions that we must make, jumping on each other and blaming each other is not helpful.,.. again I will say I dont make my decision lightly and I know it will seeming like the right or wrong one only in hind sight”
    EXACTLY! Being a parent IS a tough road, and each family must find their own path through the hard choices that we are called upon to make at every turn. It is all about personal responsibility for the choices we make … and we can’t pawn that responsibility off on the physician, the schools or the government. OUR choices, OUR households, OUR family.

  60. Peri Craig says:

    To those suggesting that my son was protected through “Herd Immunity” until he was able to safely get the Pertussis vaccine with less chance of adverse reaction:
    When my son was three months old we moved to Nairobi, Kenya where we remained for the next three years. He was ill once during that three years (with amoebic dysentery), but NEVER contracted any of the “common childhood illnesses” despite traveling widely throughout Kenya from Nairobi, to Thika to Mombassa and beyond … and interacting with the local populace wherever we went.
    Other than the one bout of dysentery he was never ill. Until we returned to America and our “processed” world.
    Its not just the vaccines that need to be considered. They are only ONE aspect.

  61. Lawrence says:

    @Peri – n=1 isn’t a legitimate conclusion….17% of child mortality in the world results from VPDs….care to comment?

  62. Chris says:

    Peri, it was suggested he needed herd immunity, not that he had herd immunity.
    And you were very lucky. That sometimes happens. Personally I wish I had not had the dengue fever when we lived in South America. But that is just the throw of the dice. Unfortunately pertussis and tetanus are still big killers of children in many parts of the world.

    • Peri Craig says:

      My sympathies, Chris! Dengue is NOT fun. I managed to contract malarial fever despite having taken all necessary precautions (vaccination and continued oral medication) prior to, and during, my three years there.
      I have never suggested that my own position was one in opposition to vaccinations for children (or adults). My position has been, from the beginning, that it is up to each parent, and each family, to make informed choices regarding vaccines for themselves and their families.
      @Lawrence: The leading cause of child mortality in the United States is as follows:
      1-4 years of age
      Accidents (unintentional injuries)
      Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities
      Number of deaths: 4,316
      Deaths per 100,000 population: 26.5
      5-14 years of age
      Accidents (unintentional injuries)
      Cancer
      Number of deaths: 5,279
      Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.9
      (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/children.htm)
      Worldwide:
      “More than one third of all child deaths occur within the first month of life, providing skilled care to mothers during pregnancy, as well as during and after birth, greatly contributes to child survival. Millennium Development Goals adopted by the United Nations in 2000 aim to decrease child deaths worldwide by 2015.”
      “Leading causes of death in under-five children are pneumonia, diarrhea and health problems during the first month of life.”
      “Over one third of all child deaths are linked to malnutrition.”
      Over 8 Million children under the age of five years die worldwide each year. The breakdown is as follows:
      NEWBORNS: 41%
      Pre-Term 12%
      Asphyxia 9%
      Sepsis 6%
      Other Neonatal 5%
      Neonatal pneumonia 4%
      Congenital 3%
      Tetanus 1%
      Neonatal diarrhea 1%
      CHILDREN: 59%
      Diarrhea 14%
      Pneumonia 14%
      Other Infections 9%
      Malaria 8%
      Non-Communicable Diseases 4%
      Injury 3%
      Auto-Immune Deficiency (AIDS) 2%
      Pertussis 2%
      Meningitis 2%
      Measles 1%
      Malnutrition is a factor in more than half of the children who die after the first month of life.
      Of the 12 countries where more than 20% of children die before their fifth birthday, nine have suffered a major armed conflict in recently.
      Countries with weak and fragile health systems have not been able to provide effective child survival strategies that are crucial to reduce under-five child deaths, and especially neonatal deaths. Basic health services have been lacking as well as nutrition, water supplies and sanitation facilities.
      Poor or delayed care-seeking contributes to up to 70% of all under-five child deaths.
      Almost half a million deaths each year due to malaria in children under-five in sub-Saharan Africa could have been prevented with the use of insecticide-treated bed nets, shown to reduce under-five mortality rates by up to 20%
      Even in America 7% of children have NO healthcare coverage, not due to lack of trying on the part of their parents.
      (Source: http://www.who.int/pmnch/media/press_materials/fs/fs_mdg4_childmortality/en/)
      But to take this back to the discussion at hand. you will note that the WHO accounts that only 3% of the child mortality rate are DIRECTLY attributable to the lack of vaccinations. While they certainly play a role in the WHO’s future plan to decrease child-mortality figures (because, after all, we are not looking at statistics, but actual living, breathing children), they rate Vitamin A supplements as a higher priority (by a small margin) then vaccination … yes, it surprised me, too!
      I DO NOT discount the importance of vaccines. I also feel that, in America (since that is where this discussion originated and we needn’t stray TOO far from that point) parents must accept the responsibility for the health of their children and families. And THAT is the bottom line … and what I’ve been saying all along. I repeat:
      “NOT all vaccines are completely 100% without risk to children, be they born or pre-born, and the wonder-wizards of medical science and the FDA are not 100% certain of many vaccines currently on the market … that’s why they still look at them, tweak them and try to make them SAFER. I still maintain that rather than engaging in a tirade over your children being at risk because of unvaccinated children that might come into contact with your child, vaccinate your own child. ”
      Ultimately, that’s where “the buck ends” except for those who haven’t the “bucks” to make an effective decision. And now I’m done beating this particular horse.
      Lawrence, I have now commented … and the WHO refutes your 17% conclusion. You may argue with them as you wish: http://www.who.int/pmnch/getinvolved/comments/en/

  63. Chris says:

    Peri Craig, there are a couple of problems with that comparison. For one thing you cannot directly compare child health in countries with disparate industrial development. And since this is only about chicken pox, it is only fair to compare countries that actually have the chicken pox vaccine as an option.
    Also, the problem with the USA is it is really the only industrialized country where too many do not have any health insurance.
    Apples and orange comparisons do not make a valid argument for whatever you are trying to say.
    If your child has not had a varicella vaccine, he/she has a higher chance of getting chicken pox because it is still circulating. Plus if there is an outbreak in their school they will be asked to stay home.
    From my personal experience, the illness is not fun, and I really wish they had introduced the vaccine at least a year earlier!

  64. Lawrence says:

    @peri – interesting:
    http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/en/
    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/
    Six conditions account for about 70% of all child deaths: acute lower respiratory infections, mostly pneumonia (19%), diarrhoea (18%), malaria (8%), measles, (4%), HIV/AIDS (3%), and neonatal conditions, mainly pre-term birth, birth asphyxia, and infections (37%). The relative contribution of HIV/AIDS to the total mortality of children under-five, especially in sub-Saharan Africa, has also been increasing steadily. Malnutrition is a factor in more than half of the children who die after the first month of life.
    19% + 18% + 4% = 41% of 70% of deaths under the age of 5….
    Which is actually higher than the 17% that WHO quoted in 2008, unless you are aware of the vaccines against Rotavirus and various strains of Pneumonia, not to mention measles.

  65. Lawrence says:

    Oops, meant to say “unaware.”

  66. Lawrence says:

    @peri – and your arguments are straw men, because no one here is arguing that “their” child is at risk, as the risk is shared by the public at large, including those who cannot be vaccinated for valid medical reasons and to whom vaccine-preventable diseases can be particularly dangerous and deadly.
    Allowing VPDs to circulate in the general population puts everyone at potential risk.

  67. Brenda Tate says:

    It would be useful to provide statistics for leading causes of child mortality in the decades immediately preceding widespread vaccination – especially against diseases that have now been largely eradicated (I say “largely” because many of these are still present in the world and pose a threat of resurgence, thanks to the anti-vaccine movement). I believe that the numbers would shift dramatically as we move further back in time, and that infectious diseases would claim a much higher percentage of lives. If that is, indeed, the case, it would support the contention that vaccination works and that it reduces mortality to a significant degree.
    My brother died from meningitis at the age of four, decades in the past. At that time, it was a fairly frequent occurrence. The disease also claimed the life of a boy with whom he had been playing when he fell ill. Graveyards in my local area are filled with families of small children who passed away from a common cause – influenza, smallpox, polio, whooping cough, measles and diphtheria were among the worst scourges. Sometimes the cause of death would actually be indicated on the monument. Even when this was not the case, it seems reasonable to assume that a cluster of fatalities within a short time period, in one family, would have been the result of a communicable disease. Local residents also have long memories for anecdotal details.
    This website is extremely useful for comparative studies of disease prevalence and mortality over the ages. In each individual event, if one clicks on the icon provided, further information is supplied – including video interviews. http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all

  68. […] Think Chickenpox is Party Worthy? Think Again (shotofprevention.com) […]

  69. Jim McClure says:

    You pro vacination haters disgust me. It’s a good thing it’s not up to you. If you were truely educated on vaccines and there saftey, and have done your research on vaccines, you would not be so judgmental. You will find there is a lot more to the story. Once you do some reasearch and read real scientific studies that have been done world wide, you may think twice. If you just read the insert that comes in the vaccine box you may be more alarmed than anything you have read on the CDC’s website, which by the way has swaped board members with Merck. Most of the drug studies have been done or paid for by the drug companies themselves, and by injecting murcury and toxic chemicals into your infants undeveloped blood brain Barrier, This is perfectly safe according to the tobacco science, Sponsored by the drug companies who have killed thousands and thousands of people With recalled drugs .Your children are the human Trials. Please do your research before you judge those who have.

  70. Lawrence says:

    @Jim – and your evidence of any of that is, what exactly?

  71. novalox says:

    @jim
    Got any evidence to support your comments beside vast conspiracy theory?

    • reissd says:

      @Jim. Thank you. I’ve read inserts. I’ve looked at studies. They reassured me that vaccines are incredibly safe and their risk are minute, compared to the risks of the diseases. I agree with you that if anyone tried to inject murcury and toxins into an infant’s Blood Brain Barrier, that would be horrible. But since we’re not doing that but injecting a safe vaccine into an infant’s muscle, to protect that infant from diseases, I think we should keep monitoring vaccine safety and respond to every problem that comes up – as the system currently in place does – but go on protecting children.
      And by the way, I recommend the coursera.org course on Vaccine Trials. It would show you how far from human trials a vaccine is once it’s on the market, and how careful the process is.

  72. Chris says:

    Mr. McClure:

    Once you do some reasearch and read real scientific studies that have been done world wide, you may think twice.

    Please provide those PubMed indexed studies that show the varicella vaccines has more risk than chicken pox or shingles. Thank you.
    Do be aware that the varicella vaccines have never contained thimerosal. So do confine your answers to the subject of this article, which is chicken pox and the vaccines that protect children from it. We need a very good reason to skip the vaccine, since only a cruel person would let kids suffer from dozens of itchy open wounds that can get secondary bacterial infections, instead of getting a safe vaccine.

  73. Karen says:

    A CDC study from 2000 published in the JAMA (Sept. 13) found that adverse reactions to the varicella vax occurred in seven out of every thousand children vaccinated, with 4% of these being serious, meaning death, hospitalization, life-threatening events, and permanent disability. I’d rather my child get natural chickenpox, the way I did as a child, and everyone else did too.

  74. Lawrence says:

    @Karen – when Chicken Pox went through my family as a child, it was eight straight weeks of hell for my parents (not to mention the sequence of us kids that got it – two and a half weeks straight of each of us catching it, each one progressively worse than the one before).
    You should also look at more recent safety information, which directly contradicts your 2000 Study…..
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/
    Now, of course, I have Shingles to look forward to – except I’ll get the Shingles Vaccine when I get a little older….why you would demand that your kids get sick is beyond me.

  75. Chris says:

    Karen, how come you did not post the title of that article, or the authors? By the way it is Postlicensure Safety Surveillance for Varicella Vaccine. The whole thing is free online, so I can find key phrases like (added bolding): ” Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.”
    … and: “Conclusion Most of the reported adverse events associated with varicella vaccine are minor, and serious risks appear to be rare.”
    … and in a couple of the case reports a version of: “Polymerase chain reaction studies identified wild-type VZV.”
    Also, how come you did not post a more recent study: Safety of varicella vaccine after licensure in the United States: experience from reports to the vaccine adverse event reporting system, 1995-2005? Were you cherry picking?
    Now where is the comparison to actually getting the disease versus the vaccine? From those two papers, it looks like the vaccine is much much safer.

  76. Karen Kraus says:

    Thanks for the link,Chris! It said, in part: “Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.”It also said there were 14 deaths in the study group after the vax, 251 developed shingles, half from the vax and half from natural chickenpox. None of the 30 anaphylaxis cases was fatal.

  77. Chris says:

    Yes, Ms. Kraus, it does say that. But where is the comparison with the problems of actually getting the disease? Which you can see from the above article is actually deadly. Show how those numbers are greater than those in this paragraph from the CDC Pink Book chapter on Varicella:

    In the prevaccine era, approximately 11,000 persons with varicella required hospitalization each year. Hospitalization rates were approximately 2–3 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 8 per 1,000 cases among adults. Death occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases. From 1990 through 1996, an average of 103 deaths from varicella were reported each year. Most deaths occur in immunocompetent children and adults. Since 1996, the number of hospitalizations and deaths from varicella has declined more than 90%.
    So please explain to me how the fourteen possible deaths over three are more than a hundred per year? The more recent paper has sixty deaths over ten years, many were found to be other things. I fail to see how that is greater than a hundred deaths per year.
    Also, you have not read the entire paper. Many of those deaths were found to be the wild virus, and other things. Try reading the case reports. That paper shows exactly why raw VAERS reports are useless. Some examples:
    Patient A:

    Shortly before her eighth birthday, a girl with history of chronic severe asthma received a tuberculosis tine test and multiple vaccines (DT, MMR, OPV, and VV), which were followed by hives. Her brother had chicken pox 3 years earlier. The patient’s medications included inhaled corticosteroids. She was hospitalized for asthma during the month after the vaccinations and again 19 months later, when she required intubation. She died with coagulopathy and Staphylococcus aureus sepsis. No rash had been recognized antemortem, but at autopsy 2 of several scattered papules showed “intraepidermal vesicles with viral inclusions and multinucleated cells.”…. Polymerase chain reaction studies identified wild-type VZV.

    Patient B:

    A 16-month-old girl with history of upper respiratory tract infections was receiving an antibiotic for otitis media when she was immunized with HiBV and VV. … Viral culture of liver tissue was negative. Polymerase chain reaction identified wild-type VZV in brain tissue.

    Patient C:

    A healthy 18-month-old boy had no history of allergy or any prior postvaccinal adverse event when he received multiple vaccinations (DTaP, OPV, VV) 2 to 3 weeks after a viral syndrome…. Polymerase chain reaction studies detected neither wild-type nor Oka-strain VZV. Because of the short interval from vaccinations until recognition of thrombocytopenia, the prevaccination viral syndrome is thought to be a more plausible trigger for idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura than the varicella or poliomyelitis vaccine strains.

  78. Karen Kras says:

    The reason given for starting the Varivax campaign was to avoid parents having to stay home from work to care for children sick with chickenpox. It was never considered to be a dangerous disease. Before the vaccine started to be given in the mid-’90s, milliions of people a year in the US got chickenpox, and an average of 100 a year died. Most of those relatively few deaths were in adults, who often have a more serious case than children, or in children with preexisting conditions like AIDS, leukemia, or cancer. The parents of the 14 children cited in the study as having died from the vaccine would probably feel just as strongly as the family of the boy who died of chickenpox over ten years ago.

  79. Chris says:

    So why is it okay for kids to suffer almost two weeks with dozens to hundreds of itchy open wounds, and letting around a hundred die per year? Why is it bad to prevent a disease and those deaths?
    “The parents of the 14 children cited in the study as having died from the vaccine would probably feel just as strongly as the family of the boy who died of chickenpox over ten years ago.”
    Except that if you read the case reports, you will see that the vaccine is very likely not the reason. It may have been the actual disease (that is what “wild type” means). Now please do explain how fourteen possible deaths from the vaccine (and it most cases it was not clear) over three years is worse than a hundred deaths every year. The last math I took was advanced engineering mathematics in graduate school, and even using complex numbers… one hundred per year is lots more than a bit over four per year.
    By the way, from the 2000 paper:

    Authoritative recommendations1- 3 for nearly universal use of the new vaccine reflected the magnitude of morbidity and mortality due to varicella: 4000 to 9000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths per year from serious secondary infections or central nervous system and other complications.4- 5

    So, again, why is preventing chicken pox a bad thing? Why is preventing hospitalizations a bad thing? Why is preventing a hundred deaths per year a bad thing? And exactly how is fourteen in three years (a bit over four per year) more than a hundred per year?

  80. Karen Kraus says:

    Different people will have different opinions on this subject, and that’s fine. Personally I’m glad that I had and my children have had natural chickenpox. The itching for us wasn’t that bad, and if you don’t scratch them they don’t become open wounds. If you get it as a child you never have to worry about it again, but if you don’t, you either have to worry about getting boosters for the rest of your life or getting it at an age when complications and fatalities are much more likely. I’ve had shingles once, and it wasn’t bad at all, not even painful, but I have a good friend who had a bad case for two months, that responded well to Hypercal ointment. You can get shingles either from the natural disease or the vaccine, usually many years later. Shingles is rising now because there isn’t much virus around now to boost people’s resistance: another disadvantage to the vaccine. That was fourteen deaths in the study group, not the entire population of the vaccinated. We don’t know how many die from the vaccine, especially since such deaths would be denied and said to be likely due to another cause. The adults who died of chickenpox would have done better if they had gotten the disease as children, when it is not very dangerous. The boy in the story was an unfortunate rare exception, but if you are able to say that fourteen deaths are no big deal, then it’s not so much the individual children you are worried about. The children who died of chickenpox who had cancer, AIDS, or leukemia were already in bad shape: and it is very likely that the disease was not the reason for their death, or that it just pushed them over the edge a little earlier.
    Every time someone recovers from a natural disease, it makes their immune system work better in the future, trains it, so to speak. Chickenpox is an easy challenge for most children, one which I welcomed. Those who feel differently are certainly welcome to do as they like.

  81. Jim McClure says:

    Hi! firstly by injecting murcury, Formaldehyde, or any other toxic substances into mucle tissue, finds its way and absorbs into the bloodstream Which can then pass through the infants undeveloped blood brain barrier, Which could Depending on how sensitive the child is, cause a plethora of learning, behavioral and cognitive Disorders Which have rapidly been increasing with the number of vaccines that have been increasing. If you’ve read the vaccine inserts you probably saw the long list of side effects with some being life-threatening. And a list of known extremely toxic ingredients. The Only studies I am interested in are Independent studies (ie not funded by pharmaceutical companies or the government.
    I would not bet my Child on a pharmaceutical funded vaccination study, The FDA Has fast Tracked Many drugs which had to be pulled due to the many deaths. Members of some of these same drug companies who make our vaccines have been prosecuted in a court of law for altering the very drug studies that determine if a drug gets approved. Do you really think these multi billion dollar corporations have your safety in mind. I beleive they now have been granted imunity to being sued. After doing my research I do know they have a heavy influence on the FDA AMA and The American Academy of pediatrics to name a few.
    I’ve read about some of the great vaccine Statistics that were done in Third World countries. What they don’t tell us is that vaccination programs are Initiated with sanitation programs Which may include clean water, sewer systems, medicine, antibiotics, and better nutrition. It all makes the vaccine program seem like it has a very high success rate. The health and Disease level of the people in these communities was already getting better by just having access to CLEAN WATER. Before I look at rosy statistics, I look who is compiling them. I try to get ahold of statistics that show a more detailed timeline showing exactly when sanitation is improved in that community and how disease improved after that.

  82. Chris says:

    Mr, McClure, there has never been any thimerosal in the varicella vaccine. So your worries are unfounded. Plus, you did not post any evidence. Try again please.
    Ms. Kraus:

    If you get it as a child you never have to worry about it again,

    Except as shingles. You did not answer any of my questions. Why is it better to get the actual disease and suffer miserably for almost two weeks with dozens/hundreds of itchy open wounds? Why is it okay dokay for a hundred to die each year from it?

    That was fourteen deaths in the study group, not the entire population of the vaccinated.

    Again, you show you did not read the paper. Those were all from VAERS reports, and as it turned out many of the fourteen were from things other than the vaccine. It says: “VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths.” That means the data was from the VAERS reports, not a study group.
    Seriously, I gave you a direct link. Try reading it, including the case reports. Making believe it says something else is not a good thing, especially since I have linked to the full paper several times. And, seriously, why are you citing a paper you did not read?
    Again, please answer my questions, both Ms. Kraus and Mr. McClure:
    So, again, why is preventing chicken pox a bad thing? Why is preventing hospitalizations a bad thing? Why is preventing a hundred deaths per year a bad thing? And exactly how is fourteen in three years (a bit over four per year) more than a hundred per year?
    Mr. McClure, you have an interesting system for capitalization. Is English not your first language? Was it actually German (one child is a linguist, she might be interested in this)?
    Do tell me how those studies were paid by pharmaceutical companies. Post a direct cut and paste from those articles on their funding. I should tell you there is a Merck funded study that I did not cite, so I expect you to show me where I erred. Plus, be sure to post the citations where those “evil” ingredients are both dangerous and in the varicella vaccine. And by “citation” I mean a PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher. This does not mean anything by Gary Goldman, a guy who has a PhD in computer science from a diploma mill.

  83. Jim McClure says:

    Chris,
    My auto cap turns on every time i hit the Backspace Button ..Ha ha …Maybe Goldman is right about some things. He was quoted at the end of that article. The truth is that only time will tell If the chickenpox vaccine is a bad idea. It wouldn’t be the first time. How many thousands of us were contaminated with SV-40 laced Polio vaccines which more and more scientists are linking it to rare cancers plus lymphoma, leukemia and tumors
    According to Wikipedia “an analysis presented at the Vaccine Cell Substrate Conference in 2004[25] suggested that vaccines used in the former Soviet bloc countries, China, Japan, and Africa, could have been contaminated up to 1980, meaning that hundreds of millions more could have been exposed to the virus unknowingly.”
    The CDC Claims that only up to 30 million people received the SV-40 virus in their polio vaccine, and that the evidence that it causes cancer in humans is inconclusive They recently removed their page on sv40 virus. I did find it after a bit of searching.
    Now Studies suggest that the SV40 virus is sexually transmitted.
    It does cause cancer and tumors in laboratory animals.
    Although the SV 40 virus is found in many human cancers its difficult to prove in humans that SV-40 virus is the cause.
    I have not done much research on the polio Vaccine but i’m reading more and more articles about how it was was almost completely eradicated mostly by sanitation before the polio vaccine was introduced. If anyone has any real facts on this I would be very interested.

  84. Chris says:

    Mr. McClure, I understand you are new here. We don’t accept Wikipedia cites, nor do we accept blanket declarations as “truth.” Please post the PubMed indexed studies by a qualified reputable researcher to support your statements. As noted before, Mr. Goldman does not qualify. Because buying a Phd in “Computer Science” from a diploma mill is not a reputable qualification.
    The article above is about a vaccine to prevent chicken pox. It has nothing to do with “SV-40 virus in their polio vaccine.” Varicella has nothing to do with polio. So please stay on topic.
    So again, the relevant questions are:

    Why is preventing chicken pox a bad thing? Why is preventing hospitalizations a bad thing? Why is preventing a hundred deaths per year a bad thing? And exactly how is fourteen in three years (a bit over four per year) more than a hundred per year?

  85. dingo199 says:

    I echo Chris’ comments here.
    Catching chicken pox would not have seemed like a concerning issue 20-30 years ago. There were still a lot more scary childhood diseases for parents to fear (eg the meningitis, HIB, pneumococcus etc) and chicken pox didn’t come onto the radar for many people. But as Chris says, it still killed over 100 every year – these were mainly children, and most deaths were in the immunocompetent.

    In the prevaccine era, approximately 11,000 persons with
    varicella required hospitalization each year. Hospitalization
    rates were approximately 2–3 per 1,000 cases among
    healthy children and 8 per 1,000 cases among adults. Death
    occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases. From 1990
    through 1996, an average of 103 deaths from varicella were
    reported each year. Most deaths occur in immunocompetent
    children and adults. Since 1996, the number of hospitalizations
    and deaths from varicella has declined more than 90%.

    Now preventing these thousands of hospitalisations and hundreds of deaths is a GOOD THING.
    Because vaccination still does not completely eliminate the risk of relapse as shingles later in life, we recommend that immunity is boosted with a shingles vaccine. Quite simple, no big deal. With these vaccines we can prevent both chickenpox and shingles. Again, a GOOD THING.

  86. Jake Brown says:

    Don’t trust these pediatrition. Don’t vaccinate, your child will be allot safer and healthier. Do your own reasearch and don’t bother arguing with these folks in this chat room. They will never see outside their little box. Anything outside their little box is a conspiracy theory.

  87. Chris says:

    Mr. Brown, citation needed,
    When chicken pox went through my kids’ school about twenty years ago one kid almost lost his leg due to flesh eating bacteria infecting his pox.
    Also, only a sadist would want little kids to suffer from several open sores (poxes) all over their bodies. This is something that is easily prevented by a safe vaccine. Why do you want kids to suffer?

  88. […] Think Chickenpox is Party Worthy?  Think Again:  Some people mistakenly believe it is safer to sicken their children by exposing them to “wild” diseases than to obtain immunity through vaccinations.  However, the misconception that wild viruses and “natural” immunity is a dangerous one, especially when parents are purposely infecting their children with chickenpox rather than get them vaccinated. If parents are going to take their chances with the wild varicella virus, it’s important that they first acknowledge the risks and understand that chickenpox can be dangerous and deadly.  This post, which explains the concerns of intentional exposure and highlights the unfortunate death of Jesse Lee Newman, can be read here. […]

  89. Monica says:

    I’m glad that everyone in my family has had natural chickenpox. You can get shingles even if you get the vaccine: either the vaccine or the disease leaves live virus dormant in your body, and it can resurface at times of weakness of the immune system. The disease is usually very mild, and it is only in very rare cases that it can become serious. The vaccine is dangerous relatively often. The Sept. 13, 2000, issue of JAMA published results of an FDA/CDC study, which showed that serioius reactions to this vaccine occurred at a rate of 4%. However, children under 4 had serious reactions at 6.3%, children under 2 9.2%, and those under one (vaccinated against recommendations) 14%. The serious reactions included encephalitis, seizures, neurological, immune system, and blood disorders, and death. And, of course, the vaccine will wear off, leaving the person vulnerable as adults, when the disease is often more dangerous. Chris, did you not have chickenpox as a child? We had it, and the poxes were itchy, but within a couple of weeks, they were gone. At no point did they become infected by flesh-eating bacteria. You’d have to look long and hard for adults in any community who had a severe case of chickenpox as children. Why do you want kids to take a vaccine that has such a high rate of causing severe, even fatal, damage?

  90. Gray Falcon says:

    Do you have a link to the study?

  91. Chris says:

    Yes, I had chickenpox, and so did all of my children. And one of the kids in the school almost lost a limb. Did you fail to read what I wrote?
    Wait, did you even read the above article? So what if you did not suffer much, many many kids do, and they have ended up very severely disabled or dead. Or are you a sadist that enjoys seeing kids in pain from hundreds of itchy pox?

  92. Chris says:

    I should mention you have to look very hard to find kids who died from vaccine preventable diseases. Oh, wait, no you don’t. I can just go up to the cemetery up the street and wander through the section set aside for children. There is one grave marker for several kids from one family dying within a few weeks (diphtheria epidemic almost a century ago).
    By the way bacterial infections from chicken pox were common enough in the 1960s that the first thing done to me when I came down with pox was cutting my fingernails very very short. It was made sure that I did not scratch the pox, and it was miserable. My kids were also miserable when they had chicken pox, especially the six month old baby and the oldest.
    Here is an idea, before you try to educate us try reading the above article first. Perhaps you could provide “constructive” criticism on what the grieving family did wrong. Then any time you make a claim like “toxins” or “people were not injured” provide a PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher without ties to known anti-vax organizations. That is known as a “citation.” Use them next time instead of being a champion of letting kids get sick.

  93. novalox says:

    @monica
    Considering that a teenager was hospitalized with chicken pox (which he was not vaccinated for) at the hospital that I volunteer at, ended up suffering significantly, and ended up with significant scarring around his body, I’d say he and his family would rather have had the vaccination and significantly reduced his risk for getting the disease.

  94. Lawrence says:

    @Monica – again, citations needed.

  95. Gray Falcon says:

    Well, she did mention a JAMA article, but given peoples’ tendency to misinterpret, exaggerate, and in some cases, make up out of whole cloth, I’d like a link to the article itself.

  96. Chris says:

    It seems to be this study, which concludes:

    Most of the reported adverse events associated with varicella vaccine are minor, and serious risks appear to be rare. We could not confirm a vaccine etiology for most of the reported serious events; several will require further study to clarify whether varicella vaccine plays a role.

    In short, not really what she claims it says, since it was 4% of the VAERS reports (total of 6574) not the total number of varicella vaccines given (millions). It actually says:

    VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths.

    So 4% of 6547 is 263 reports, which is out of about 100000/67.5*6574 doses, about 9.7 million doses. So the 263 reports are 0.0027% of the total doses, A few decimal points removed from her claim. Perhaps why she could not be bothered to cite it properly nor post the more two more recent studies (which are free to download):
    J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 1;197 Suppl 2:S170-7. doi: 10.1086/522161.
    Safety of varicella vaccine after licensure in the United States: experience from reports to the vaccine adverse event reporting system, 1995-2005.
    PMID: 18419393
    and
    J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 1;197 Suppl 2:S165-9. doi: 10.1086/522125.
    The safety profile of varicella vaccine: a 10-year review.
    PMID: 18419392
    In the future, Monica, be sure to include the title of the study, or at least its PubMed Identification Number PMID).

  97. I’m sure that all these parents who take their children to attend these parties are so responsible that afterwards they then take them home and quarantine from pregnant women and immunocompromised people and would surely not be letting them go to school for the 2 week incubation time or the mall, out to eat, shopping, CHURCH or anywhere right…….?

  98. Elizabeth Springs :
    I think that pumping our kids full of crap, preservatives, formaldehyde, etc is the culprit for increased food allergies, learning disabilities, ADD/ADHD.

    Ah, there’s an important phrase. “I think”. *You* think that there is a link despite not providing any reliable citations or scientific evidence. If vaccines caused ADD and other issues, that would mean that *all* children who receive vaccines would end up with these problems, correct? Do you really think it has nothing at all to do with genetics? To be sure, it’s a terrible tragedy your child was born with a birth defect, and you have my sympathies, but many children are born every day with birth defects through no fault of the mother or her physician(s). Sometimes, as they say, “shit happens”.
    You have my preemptive condolences on the loss of your child(ren) to preventable childhood diseases.

  99. Andrea says:

    I find the comments section of this article more interesting than the article itself! I’m very on the fence with the varicella vaccine. I had chicken pox as a child, a moderate case. I have no scars, my mom kept me home from school and used mostly natural remedies to keep me comfortable. I had no open sores and I was definitely not miserable. The one time I remember being miserable was getting the flu, parked on the couch for almost 3 weeks and this was AFTER I had received the flu vaccine. Yes, I’m fully aware the flu vaccines only prevent at best 50% of the time due to the multiple strains of the flu virus that are out there, but it definitely made me second guess whether or not I would continue to receive the flu vaccine. I was born well before the varicella vaccine was on the market, so I have no idea if my mom would have chosen for me to have it or not.
    I am not anti vaccination by any means. It does freak me out how much more we put into the bodies of babies these days and I may choose a lengthened vaccine schedule if I ever have my own children to spread it out a bit, but then again maybe I will just do it all at once. We shall cross that bridge when we get to it. I so completely, unequivocally disagree with chicken pox parties and the like.
    What I would like to know is out of the ~100 deaths per year due to chicken pox, what is the number broken down of healthy vs unhealthy children in that number? My sister had the worst case of chicken pox I’ve ever seen. She had it on her eyelids, in her ears, in her mouth, every fold of her little body and in places that should only ever be affected with pox in nightmares. She was totally fine.. No scars, no hospitalization, no open sores… It just makes me think that maybe this poor poor child who died from CP in this article… I feel like there is something missing. I fully acknowledge that I very well may be wrong in this thought, but my gut instinct tells me something else may have contributed to his death. Maybe simply that he already had pneumonia and the barrage of CP and pneumonia was too much for his tiny body to handle? I don’t know. Not blaming the parents or medical professionals or anything of the sort, but it seemed to happen so severely so quickly in that boy!!
    Has anyone verified the truth behind an article I read recently about the creator of the HPV vaccine coming out and saying it’s essentially useless and causes far more harm than good? I truthfully haven’t looked into it much at all but wondered if anyone here had. It’s stories like these that make people wary of vaccines, and if we can prove the validity of these stories one way or another it will only serve to help.
    Please don’t attack me or be cruel, I’m simply seeking information and sharing my personal experience with chicken pox! And I never said I was opposed to the vaccine or anything like that!!

  100. Chris says:

    “big $”, videos are not scientific citations. Especially when they first feature a lawyer. And they paid the congressman a bunch of money for it.
    I suggest that if you think lawyers and politicians are the font of medical knowledge, the next time you are injured, even if you just stub your toe, just go to your local lawyer or politician office. I am sure they will just fix you up.

  101. Chris says:

    Andrea: “What I would like to know is out of the ~100 deaths per year due to chicken pox, what is the number broken down of healthy vs unhealthy children in that number?”
    Try reading the article at the top of this page. Your question will be answered.
    Personally I think folks who think kids are “unhealthy” by some unmeasurable standard, like my son when he suffered seizures as a toddler from a now vaccine preventable disease, are abhorrent. It is right there in the depths of human depravity with eugenics. You probably think Roald Dahl’s old child had a defect for the effect measles had on her, or that one of the kids from the family made famous in the movie Cheaper by the Dozen (diphtheria went through the family and one died, which is why later photos only show eleven children, see the book Making Time: Lillian Moller Gilbreth — A Life Beyond “Cheaper by the Dozen by Jane Lancaster).
    Oh, and “Big $”, more information: The antivaccine movement buys Representative Darrell Issa for $40,000.

  102. Chris says:

    Andrea: “I feel like there is something missing. I fully acknowledge that I very well may be wrong in this thought, but my gut instinct tells me something else may have contributed to his death. Maybe simply that he already had pneumonia and the barrage of CP and pneumonia was too much for his tiny body to handle?”
    Wow, you are an idiot. Did you read the article with full comprehension? Is the a eugenics or “blame the parents” accusation?

  103. Lawrence says:

    @Andrea – this is not meant to the cruel, but you are most certainly “blaming the victim” or at least trying to, in your post.
    Diseases, by their very nature, can have vastly different effects on different individuals – even in my own household, as a child, my siblings and I had very different experiences with Chicken Pox – whereas mine was mild (though still miserable), both my brother and sister had much worse reactions and were sick for much longer than I was….it had nothing to do with our overall health, as it did with the luck of the draw with the disease itself.
    And certainly you would agree, that if someone did have an underlying condition (either known or unknown) that would make them more vulnerable, that vaccination is the right choice – both for them & the people that they come in contact with?
    Personal stories are just that – stories that relate to a single individual – that’s why we rely on research and Science to make better decisions all-around.

  104. Lawrence says:

    @Andrea – also, a correction for you – Dianne Harper is not the “creator” of the HPV vaccine & a number of her comments have either been taken out of context or have been shown, through further research, to be incorrect (or in the case of claiming that pap smears alone guarantee a 100% cure rate for HPV-derived cancers – 100% false).
    The problem is – people like you take the anti-vax stories at face value, yet question the stories like those posted above….like taking the VAERS reports for Gardasil deaths at face value, but when you look at them, you find that the vast majority have nothing even remotely related to the vaccine.
    If you pick up a history book, you’ll see the damage the VPDs were responsible for – the deaths of thousands of children, collectively, every single year – and contributed to large numbers of permanently disabled and crippled children as well – whether via Polio, Rubella, Measles, Mumps, etc…..these aren’t stories, they are the history of disease just in this country.

    • doritmi says:

      Andrea, I have talked to Jesse’s mom. He was perfectly healthy before he got chicken pox. Within a few days he went from perfectly healthy to dying. They saw him deteriorate in three hospital, in spite of heroic efforts to save him. I’m glad your sister came through. Jesse did not, and it was not the parents’ or the doctors’ fault. And I admit I’m very disturbed by the parts of your posts that seem to be implying it is. Healthy children can die from chicken pox. Or flu, for that matter.
      We actually give children’s immune system less of challenge today than we did in the 1980s, in spite of having more vaccines, because we have better purified vaccines. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full. I understand the concern about seeing multiple needles go into a child. But I hope this information helps.

  105. Sullivanthepoop says:

    Elizabeth Springs :
    “there are cases in which varicella can result in serious complications, hospitalizations and even death.” These are from immunocompromised children and older people. The vaccine only lasts 16-25 years depending on if you agree with the Japanese or American study. So we are pumping crap into our children that could permanently cause problems all for 1-2 decades of chicken pox free time, THEN we have 17-26 year olds who aren’t immune, and it is FAR MORE DEADLY for a teenager/young adult to go through chicken pox than a toddler. This vaccine should be outlawed! On top of all that it has chicken albumin in the vaccine and with all the food allergies our kids are facing, the vaccine in and of itself can be fatal.

    It is not at all true that only immunocompromised children and older people are the only ones hospitalized or the only ones who die from chickenpox. Also, you can only track immunity for the time the vaccine has been available, in the US that is since 1995.

  106. Sullivanthepoop says:

    Elizabeth Springs :
    @Saul- I will NEVER vaccine my children or myself ever again. My daughter was born with a severe birth defect because I was forced to have the flu-vaccine while I was pregnant. I think that pumping our kids full of crap, preservatives, formaldehyde, etc is the culprit for increased food allergies, learning disabilities, ADD/ADHD. To have legal ramifications for refusing vaccines is unconstitutional, if we have to be forced to live in a society where women are allowed to “choose” if their unborn child is to live or die, than how can we turn around and say, you can’t choose if they will live or die with the harmful crap that is vaccines. You can’t have it both ways, either a woman gets to choose or not.

    Your reasoning makes no sense at all. One is choosing what to do with your body and one is choosing for another person what to do with their body.

  107. Cindy says:

    Chris,
    You are correct that the percentages given were within the group of vaccine-damaged, not the whole group of the vaccinated, but only the 6,500 adverse reactions reported. The FDA pointed out, however, that “potentially substantial underreporting” made the figures “highly variable fractions of actual event numbers.” Among the adverse events studied was a healthy 18-month old boy with no history of allergies or vaccine reactions. He was admitted to the ICU four days after the varicella shot with a low platelet count. He began to bleed from the mouth and died two days later of a cerebral hemorrhage. Another child had an absence seizure three days after the varicella vaccine. After his second dose one month later, he had two generalized tonic-clonic seizures. The researchers thought the vaccine had caused them because of the seizures occurring after both challenge and rechallenge. A four-year old girl had half her body paralyzed two weeks after the varicella vaccine: researchers thought the vaccine had caused it because of a recent report that natural chickenpox could cause similar ischemic strokes. A one year old child gave a sharp scream, went into cardiac arrest and died four days after the shot. A four year old child developed lymphocytic leukemia, leg pain, bruises, and decreased platelet and hemoglobin counts starting the day after the varicella vaccine, and was hospitalized for 28 days. Parents should know these things before they allow their children to be vaxed.

  108. Cindy says:

    Sullivan,
    It is your reasoning that makes no sense at all. Elizabeth doesn’t think the government should be able to mandate that women or anyone else get any vaccine. Isn’t that a question of the government telling you what to do with your body? I agree with her that no one has the right to make anyone do something that has the potential to kill or disable them.

  109. Cindy says:

    Sullivan,
    Did you mean that the government has a right to tell people what they have to put in their children’s bodies even though it might not have a right to tell adults what they have to put in their own? The government has a right to demand killing or disabling children with an unavoidably unsafe product? Neither the vaccine companies nor the government have any subsequent liability unless it deems it expedient to allow vaccine court to grant damages, which it usually doesn’t. Could you clarify this?

  110. Cindy says:

    Lawrence,
    Have you read the hundreds of personal accounts of people’s daughters (and sons) being disabled or killed by Gardasil on Katie’s blog? It was stunning, hundreds of very painful accounts by parents who say they regret more than anything they’ve ever done that they let their daughters take that vaccine, that they have lost their daughters as they were before the shot forever.

  111. Cindy says:

    Chris, @ 102
    You can get shingles from the vaccine as well as the disease. See NEJM 1988: 318, 573-5: Plotkin, “Hell’s fire and varicella vaccine safety.”
    Ped Inf Dis J 1999, 18; 1112-3. Kohl, “Natural varicella virus reactivation shortly after varicella immunizaiton in a child.”
    Many others as well.

  112. Cindy says:

    @Chris 112,
    Why did you change the conversation to diphtheria deaths over a hundred years ago when we were talking about what most people know as the mild disease of chickenpox? Diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles were big killers in the nineteenth century, everyone agrees on that, but they no longer are, even without vaccination. The diseases have gotten milder and antibiotics are now used to treat diphtheria when it occurs.

  113. reissd says:

    “Have you read the hundreds of personal accounts of people’s daughters (and sons) being disabled or killed by Gardasil on Katie’s blog?” It is very sad that so many people who suffered tragedy are blaming the vaccines. But the fact remains: the evidence about the HPV vaccines is very clear – they are extremely safe. We have large scale studies demonstrating that. This post also summarizes that data: https://shotofprevention.com/2013/08/20/why-some-parents-are-refusing-hpv-vaccine-for-their-children/. And this: http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/12/05/oh-katie-couric-let-us-count-the-ways-you-screwed-up-hpv-vaccine-coverage/.
    Understandable as the need of parents to blame something for their misfortune is, their belief it’s the vaccine – in the face of evidence, without credible scientific or medical evidence – is not a reason to attack this vaccine, which can protect people against cancer.

  114. reissd says:

    As to shingles – it’s true you can get Shingles after the vaccine too. But the rates are much lower: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/08/30/infdis.jit405.short
    “HZ incidence in vaccinated children was 79% lower than in unvaccinated children. Among vaccinated children, half of HZ cases were due to wild-type VZV.

  115. Cindy says:

    @ Lawrence 124,
    You are correct, individuals can have vastly different reactions to both the natural diseases and the vaccines. My father had chickenpox at 42, and it was mild even though he was an adult, but I had a friend who got it as an adult, was hospitalized, and nearly died. No one would deny that all the VPDs can at least occasionally kill or disable. But no one would deny that every vaccine can kill or disable as well. Every parent should research this question extensively, reading articles about every VPD and every vaccine from both sides well in advance of having to make a decision. Hundreds of commenters here over the last four years have told their accounts of their own or their children’s severe vaccine reactions, and no reasonable person would say that they’re all delusional or deliberately lying.

  116. reissd says:

    And again, Cindy is assuming that VAERs report show causation to the vaccine. They do not. All they show is that someone submitted a VAERS report. Here is an explanation of the limitation of VAERS: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/11/vaers-few-things-we-need-to-discuss.html.
    VAERS also has substantial over reporting, by the way.

  117. Cindy says:

    Andrea,
    Google Katie Couric HPV show Dec. 5, and read the comments (thousands of them) and see clips from the show with Dr. Diane Harper.
    It would be good to find out how many children who died of feverish illnesses like chickenpox had received Tylenol or other fever reducers: this modern practice greatly increases mortality, as the fever must be left alone to do its job of saving the person’s life.

    • reissd says:

      If you’re going to google the Katie Couric Show, you may want to start by reading the criticisms of it: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/12/katie-couric-chooses-ratings-over-ethics.html (list of articles criticizing it) and especially the critique of Dr. Harper’s misleading, erroneous comments: http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2013/12/07/the-real-hpv-controversy-from-katie-courics-show-her-expert/.
      There are many women commenting on the Couric show that believe their daughters were harmed by the HPV vaccines. For most, the only evidence they have is a temporal connection – sometimes very weak. For several,doctors pointed out other explanations for the harm – which the parents, upset and looking for something to blame, refuse to consider. You can sympathize with their suffering, but the evidence of the vaccine causing most (if any) of these harm is non-existent.
      In contrast, studies looking at hundreds of thousands of young women, and monitoring of the millions of doses of vaccine given, found no serious risks. As in, none. By the medical and scientific evidence, these vaccines are extremely safe.
      They protect against an infection with the potential to cause cancer. Do the math.

  118. Cindy says:

    Lawrence,
    Dr. Diane Harper was one of the researchers who initially developed the HPV vaccines. She said subsequently, however, that the vaccines caused more severe reactions than the low incidence of cervical cancer warranted. She said on Katie’s show that regular Pap/DNA testing offered a 100% cure for early cervical lesions. The regular DNA testing recommendation is new: I would think that would cover it. If a woman were negative for HPV on the DNA test, how could she have a lesion caused by HPV?

  119. Cindy says:

    Dorit,
    While those who die of usually mild VPDs are usually previously immunecompromised, not all of them were. That is true. This boy may have been the exception to the usual rule. But parents had better consider the many deaths caused by this and every vaccine before choosing to get it for their children. Those vaccine deaths usually occur in previously healthy children. The varicella vaccine was thought to be unnecessary for decades, and is still considered unnecessary in most other countries, including Europe, because it is such a mild disease most of the time. It was marketed in the mid-’90s by saying that it would save parents from having to stay home from work to take care of their sick children, not by saying that it would save myriad children from dying. Since everyone had had chickenpox themselves, they would have recognized that as being untrue. Shingles is becoming much more common now because the varicella vaccine has taken the virus out of the environment that used to give people natural booster doses of virus to boost their immunity and prevent them from getting shingles. Anyone who has had either the shot or the natural disease can get shingles, as they have the live virus dormant in their spinal column for life. I think it’s better to just let your children get chickenpox and don’t give them any fever reducers.

    • reissd says:

      I know of one death potentially caused by this vaccine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23982221. Note: ” This is the first case of fatal varicella due to vaccine-strain VZV reported from the United States.” There is evidence the child was probably immunocompromised. Her death is tragic, but there were 100-150 deaths from chicken pox each year before the vaccine. VAERS reports do not show causation, remember?
      The Varicella vaccine is not used in some European countries because of cost considerations of a national health insurance system (e.g. England). And every year children die from chicken pox there. When the vaccine could prevent it. Or suffer and are hospitalized.
      And no, the rise in shingles is not connected to the vaccine: it started earlier – “Several studies report that the overall incidence of herpes zoster started increasing before the varicella vaccine was introduced in the United States. The reasons for this increase are not well understood. Currently, there is no consistent evidence that increases in herpes zoster incidence in the United States have been accelerated by the varicella vaccination program.” http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html#trends. Here is similar evidence from Canada – rates have been increasing since 1986: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870667/, and shingles is more rare with the vaccine, as I already posted: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/08/30/infdis.jit405.short
      “HZ incidence in vaccinated children was 79% lower than in unvaccinated children. Among vaccinated children, half of HZ cases were due to wild-type VZV.”

  120. novalox says:

    @cindy
    [citation needed]

  121. Chris says:

    Cindy/Andrea/Monica (similar writing style that is devoid of paragraphs, misspelling article titles, etc, I suspect it is a former lawyer in Missouri that has been banned several times):

    NEJM 1988: 318, 573-5: Plotkin, “Hell’s fire and varicella vaccine safety.”
    Ped Inf Dis J 1999

    Hmmm, a 1988 editorial and a 1999 case report. Not terrible convincing. Especially since any recent surge of shingles is among those who are those born at the peak of the baby boom (around 1957), who had chicken pox as children. Those are the ones who would most likely get shingles whether or not there was a vaccine. I have had a shingles vaccine.
    The vaccine has only been available for eighteen years, and kids who had received it would not have left their teenage years yet.
    I still think someone who thinks kids should get chicken pox is sadistic.

  122. Chris says:

    Cindy/Andrea/Monica: “While those who die of usually mild VPDs are usually previously immunecompromised, not all of them were.”
    What medical qualifications do you have to judge whether or not a child deserves to die from a vaccine preventable disease? Who are you to tell us that our kids with genetic anomalies are better off dead from a now vaccine preventable disease?

  123. Lawrence says:

    @cindy – Dr. Dianne Harper was not a “lead researcher or developer” of the HPV Vaccine…she was involved in some of the clinical safety trials – an important distinction, so you should stop lying.

  124. Lawrence says:

    One of these days, I’d like to see the anti-vax individuals actually provide a certified list of those people who conclusively died from being vaccinated….because throwing around that term without any sort of evidence to back it up is just plain old lying.
    We do know, for example, that the Smallpox vaccine did kill people – it was still rare, but it happened at a rate that, today, would not be acceptable. Back when Smallpox was still endemic, with mortality rates of between 35 – 98.5%, the small number of deaths from the vaccine was considered worth it.
    As for modern vaccines, I have yet to see any real evidence (besides immediate allergic reactions – which could happen with any medication – and do only happen in vanishingly small numbers and can be immediately identified as such) that vaccines today are related in any way to these “stories” of people dying, sometimes months after the fact.
    Perhaps Cindy would care to enlighten us?

  125. Lawrence says:

    @Cindy – please show us where “the majority” of people who died of VPDs are immuno-compromised….

  126. Tim says:

    After vaccination for smallpox became mandatory in most countries of Europe, there were devastatingly large epidemics of smallpox for the first time in history. Against a background vaccination rate of 98-99%, hundreds of thousands died of smallpox. In some towns in Italy, every single person had been vaccinated, some many times, and yet 100% of the inhabitants died of smallpox. So it is uncertain whether the vaccine was ineffective in preventing smallpox, or whether it actually caused it. All sorts of garbage was included in the vaccines, sometimes cowpox, sometimes horse grease, or smallpox from people who had it, or yucky stuff from other kinds of animal sores. Many people died from the vaccine, either immediately, soon after from gangrene or infection, from cancer at the injection site, or from leprosy, symphilis, or TB from impure vaccine. There were huge riots in the streets of many thousands protesting the mandatory policies that were killing their children. After 1898, the smallpox virus in the US became so mild on its own that it rarely killed, and was often mistaken for chickenpox.

  127. Tim says:

    Dingo,
    So no one can ever feel safe. The pertussis vaccine wears off in as little as three years. None of them last that long. So unless you want to go to the doctor every two years and have your blood titered for the many diseases you think you have protection from, or you just want to get all twenty or so of them again every two years, you’ll be uneasy thinking that maybe one or more has worn off, leaving you vulnerable to …gasp, catching a vaccine-preventable disease when you’ve gone to a lot of risk in getting vaxes to try to prevent.

  128. Chris says:

    Tim,
    Citation needed.
    Yes, there were major problems with the vaccine, just like Lawrence said, but you need to provide evidence for:

    After vaccination for smallpox became mandatory in most countries of Europe, there were devastatingly large epidemics of smallpox for the first time in history. Against a background vaccination rate of 98-99%, hundreds of thousands died of smallpox.

    Just tell us when and where these occurred with supporting documentation. I’m not sure there has every been a 98% smallpox vaccine rate anywhere. Especially with the long history of anti-vaccine movements.

  129. Tim says:

    In the old days they thought that if someone developed alarming neurological or other symptoms soon after being vaccinated that it was very likely the vaccine that did it. Nowadays there is NOTHING that the pro-vaxxers would admit as proof that it was the vaccine that did it. There could ALWAYS be something else that caused it, no matter how many times the same or similar thing happened to hundreds or thousands of people within the same time frame after vaccination, even if the person dropped dead as soon as the needle came out, it’s always possible that he had a weak heart and suffered a sudden and fatal heart attack unrelated to the vaccine. It might have been the vaccine, but with a mindset like that, there would never ever be a provable case of the vaccine having caused the death or disability. Very reassuring for parents who need to make a decision.

  130. Chris says:

    Tim: “The pertussis vaccine wears off in as little as three years.”
    And the immunity getting pertussis wears off in as little as four years:
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 May;24(5 Suppl):S58-61.
    Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.
    Plus if you survive tetanus you can still get it again.
    “None of them last that long.”
    Citation needed, especially for varicella which is the subject of this article.

  131. novalox says:

    @tim
    [citation needed] for your claims.

  132. Chris says:

    Tim, please provide citations for your assertions. And why would we suspect a vaccine caused a death when the person had already been shown to have an irregular heartbeat from multiple EKGs? Or why would a vaccine had been the case when some of the cases cited by the mighty morphing Cindy/Andrea/Monica were actually tested to have bacterial infections.
    And why should we take the word of someone who does not give any citations, changes their name multiple times a day, and actually misrepepresents the data in a citation?
    But if you want to be different from Cindy/Andrea/Monica, you will now come up with a PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified (no computer scientists) researcher that that the varicella vaccine causes more harm than actually getting chicken pox.

  133. Lawrence says:

    @Tim – some kind of reference, historical documentation or citation would be great to back up that screed of yours….

  134. Amy says:

    The head of the FDA said that only between 1 and 10% of adverse reactions to vaccines are reported to it. The VAERS was set up by the FDA as the only means to track adverse vaccine reactions after they are put on the market. You say the reports are completely untrustworthy, as they are often merely filed by the people who believe they were injured by the vaccines. Chris, there are thousands of deaths at the VAERS of previously healthy children who suddenly went into cardiac, kidney, or respiratory failure shortly after a vaccine, thousands of people who went into seizures shortly after getting a vaccine. You say these deaths were merely coincidental, that those permanently disabled either physically or mentally shortly after a vaccine would have been disabled anyway even without the vaccine. Do you have a list of the medical proof of this for each one of the thousands of deaths posted there?

    • reissd says:

      The head of the FDA was not speaking about vaccines, but about drug reactions. Which do not have a system as easily accessible as VAERS. Here is what is said about VAERS: “Overreporting. Adverse events may be included in the VAERS database that are not accurate descriptions of the event that occurred, and erroneous diagnoses may be reported. For example, a case of simple fainting after vaccination may be incorrectly reported as anaphylaxis, a potentially life-threatening condition.
      Overreporting may also result from reports that describe adverse events for which a definitive diagnosis has not yet been reached. For example, if the reporter writes on the reporting form a diagnosis of “rule out meningitis”, that VAERS report will be computer coded as meningitis. Unless specific follow-up is received indicating that meningitis was ruled out, the meningitis coding term will remain associated with the computerized VAERS report.
      Adverse Event Incidence And Trends. As a result of the overreporting and underreporting issues described above, drawing conclusions from VAERS data about how many adverse events occurred in the United States must be done extremely carefully. Similarly, because the factors affecting overreporting and underreporting may vary over time, drawing conclusion from observations of changes, or lack of changes, in the frequency of adverse events in VAERS over time (trends) may be hazardous. In addition, numbers of adverse events reported to VAERS will at least partially reflect the number of doses of vaccine administered. For example, VAERS reports reflect the current trend of a decline in usage of whole-cell pertussis-containing vaccines and a simultaneous increase in the use of acellular pertussis vaccines; however, it would be incorrect to draw conclusions about the relative safety of these vaccines from such trend data. Finally, the number of doses of vaccine administered according to age is not part of the VAERS database, and therefore actual rates of adverse events are not strictly calculable.”
      http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/VAERS.htm
      And this article found that most reported events were not caused by vaccines: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063829.
      With millions of children vaccinated each year, and some of them suffering medical conditions, some bad things will happen shortly after vaccines, yes, by pure coincidence. All serious VAERS reports are investigated. There is no evidence of widespread harms from vaccines. Studies comparing rates find no higher rates post vaccines. And many, many studies are done.
      Do you have evidence outside VAERS of extensive harms from vaccines?

  135. Chris says:

    Amy: “Chris, there are thousands of deaths at the VAERS of previously healthy children who suddenly went into cardiac, kidney, or respiratory failure shortly after a vaccine, thousands of people who went into seizures shortly after getting a vaccine.”
    Okay. VAERS is used to see trends and if there is a problem. This is why RotaShield was removed. And the studies I provided in comment #116 noted that the reports for varicella declined as it was used, along with an analysis of several of the case studies.
    This means the deaths reported to VAERS are taken seriously and looked at.
    You continue: “You say these deaths were merely coincidental, that those permanently disabled either physically or mentally shortly after a vaccine would have been disabled anyway even without the vaccine.”
    All you need to do is provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that these problems were determined to be caused by a vaccine. If you have issues with the explanations of the case studies provided by the authors of the studies I cited in Comment #116, then write to the authors and explain with valid documentation why they were wrong.
    Then, please find the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the vaccine causes more injury than the diseases. Telling us that one or two got some injury in no way shows the vaccine causes more than a hundred deaths per year (which is what the death toll of chicken pox each year before the vaccine). And no excuses that the children had some kind of health problem, that is unwarranted and frankly quite callous.

  136. dingo199 says:

    Tim,
    You imply that the duration of vaccine protection for all vaccines is 3 years (because one paper you have found says pertussis immunity can fade by then).
    However, the primary function of pertussis vaccine is to protect infants in the first year or 2 of life, when natural pertussis may be a killer. So even if kids only get their infant shots, and no boosters, they will save lives.
    Vaccines against other diseases show good durability – for instance measles vax immunity is probably lifelong, and tetanus, hepatitis B last in practice for decades, if not lifelong.
    And natural immunity to many infections is short lived or non-existent (tetanus and typhoid spring to mind) when vaccine-induced immunity is quite durable.
    [But I don’t expect to see you admit to the facts about this – like well-trained antivax trolls everywhere, you will keep repeating your lies across the internet ad nauseam]

  137. nasik says:

    You see 50 healthy people walking into a room. When they exit, 20 people are suffering cardiac arrest, seizures, impaired cognition and other neurological and motor impairments. Do you profess that you’d be okay with sending your own child into that room, despite the authorities deeming it safe?

  138. Chris says:

    nasik: “When they exit, 20 people are suffering cardiac arrest, seizures, impaired cognition and other neurological and motor impairments. ”
    Are you saying that almost a third of all doses of varicella vaccine cause this effect? In that case, please provide the PubMed indexed study from a reputable qualified researcher showing that the varicella vaccine causes serious injury in two fifths of the doses.
    Again, there is no reason to believe someone who cannot stick to a username, and who makes broad pronouncments of harm without any verifiable evidence.

  139. nasik says:

    I simply point out in Tim’s remark above, your inability to use logic and common sense, as humans had before relying solely on forensics. Since science is so divided on the subject of vaccines, how does one determine which reports are the correct reports? Each argument of this division can surely point to many valid scientific representations. In one outcome, the evidence is based on results using circumspection and non biased wisdom. A second result may show differing science which may or may not be politically motivated, rather than considering the health of each individual. So how does one choose? Again, 50 healthy people walk into an empty room, and when they exit, 20 are showing severely adverse health problems. Officials on the scene claim it safe, but for the sake of deliberation, 30 more people enter the empty room after it’s determined safe by the authorities, and now, 10 exit, having seizures, myocarditis, and severe mental confusion.
    Do you send your healthy child into that room next? Common sense would dictate no. This is why Amy speculates that no amount of evidence will cause you to deviate from your established mindset. Can you provide the proof she asked you for, to back up your assertions that the people who became disabled/died after vaccination, would have been disabled/died regardless of the inoculation, and that their deaths or injuries were ‘merely coincidental’ to the timing of vaccinations.?
    Also, will you please explain your reference to my user name?

  140. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, people have been hanged for witchcraft using your “logic and common sense”.

  141. nasik says:

    I thought they burned those they considered to be witches Gray Falcon. Would you send your child into that room?

  142. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, nasik, make sure you get your numbers right. It would be more accurate to say 10,000 people entered the room and one left with a severe health problem. If you truly possessed unbiased wisdom, then why are you deliberately changing the numbers? If you are doing what is right, then why do you need to lie?

  143. nasik says:

    How can my numbers be incorrect when I posed a hypothetical scenario to access logic and common sense? Respectfully Gray Falcon, your post questioning my numbers makes No sense at all. What have I said for you to suggest that I would need to lie?
    Would you send your child into that room regardless of being told by officials that it was completely safe, or would your logic and common sense question the assurance, for the sake of your child’s safety?
    Yes, Gray Falcon. Some people/organizations/agencies DO LIE. For the record, I don’t. But do you really want to trust the endorsement of those who have a financial stake in a certain interest, when they tell you ‘all is well’, disquieting your own logic, while you could be illogically putting your child in danger?

  144. Chris says:

    nasik:

    Again, 50 healthy people walk into an empty room, and when they exit, 20 are showing severely adverse health problems. Officials on the scene claim it safe, but for the sake of deliberation, 30 more people enter the empty room after it’s determined safe by the authorities, and now, 10 exit, having seizures, myocarditis, and severe mental confusion.

    My, my, my. I went through the math on the first paper analyzing the VAERS reports after varicella was approved in comment #116. It was “So the 263 reports are 0.0027% of the total doses, A few decimal points removed from her claim.”
    You really have problems with basic arithmetic if you think 263 reports out of several million doses is even close to 40%
    “How can my numbers be incorrect when I posed a hypothetical scenario to access logic and common sense?”
    They are incorrect because you never provided the source of those numbers. The hypothetical scenario is a completely made up figment of your imagination. It is wrong because it is fictional. There is no logic if it is a totally unrealistic fiction.
    Before the varicella vaccine was approved in 1995, about a hundred people in the USA met the same final fate as young Jesse described in the above article. What you need to do if you want to be taken seriously is come up with a PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the vaccine causes as much damage each year.

  145. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, if you were honest, why did you not provide a scenario where the numbers actually resembled the issue at hand? What were you hoping to accomplish? Also, how do we know you don’t have a financial stake in the issue? After all, cures are far more expensive than preventions.

  146. Lawrence says:

    Posing a legitimate hypothetical requires putting forth a scenario that is at least in the ballpark for comparison purposes….as presented above, that scenario is neither legitimate or in the ballpark of reality.

  147. nasik says:

    Sigh, sigh, sigh! Such imprudence! What total senselessness on this site!. Chris, you expect me to provide a source for hypothetical numbers? Truly unreasonable and absurd. And yes, Chris! Hypothetical means FICTION. However, just because my scenario was fiction, does not mean that one can’t deduce a LOGICAL conclusion to my conceptual characterization.
    ‘There is no logic if it is a totally unrealistic fiction’. That’s not only illogical but false. Plenty of people are asked to LOGICALLY problem solve everyday given hypothetical situations.
    How do you adequately man this site, given your ineptness of hypothesis, rationalization, and logic? And Chris, I’m as serious as a myocardial infarction.

    • reissd says:

      We use hypotheticals regularly in legal teaching. They need to be relevant to the issue and if you’re trying to draw a parallel, to be actual parallel. Your hypothetical fails both parts.
      VAERS reports do not show causation; and as pointed above, your numbers are completely wrong compared to chicken pox recipients.
      A better parallel than yours would be millions of parents spending time with their six year olds at a play ground every day. At the end of the week, some of the parents report their child lost a tooth. Other parents report their child had a fever at some point. A small number of parents report their child died tragically during that week. Others report other events, to the total of VAERS reports.
      Would you send your child to the playground? Well, on this information you can’t tell. You can’t tell if the deaths and other problems were caused on the playground or if it’s a coincidence – not without more investigation. You know some of the teeth lost were probably from the fact that six year olds lose teeth – but there may be an increase from playing in the playground, if children fall a lot; but you won’t know without comparing the rate of teeth lost on the playground to the rate lost off it.
      And if you knew some risks were caused on the playground, you might still decide to take your child there, because you want the advantages of playing outweigh that small risk, in your view.
      Of course, the chicken pox vaccine is not playing on a playground. As pointed out above, chicken pox – though rarely – can kill. Or cause other harms. And certainly cause substantial suffering.

  148. Chris says:

    It certainly took less than a 40% injury/dose ratio to remove RotaShield from the market a few years ago. So I hope that Nasik provides us some real verifiable numbers in the real medical literature.
    We need real data if we should deny our children prevention of a disease that gives them dozens of itchy open sores (poxes) all over their body with a possibility of permanent damage. Only a sadist would want a child to suffer through chicken pox if it is easily prevented.

  149. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Hypothetical means FICTION.”
    Which has absolutely no relevance to any discussion on this page. Your hypothesis of too many injuries being noted and a vaccine removed from the schedule has been done multiple times in the USA, and numbers that were closer to one in hundreds of thousand. This is why the American pediatric schedule does include smallpox, BCG, IPV or RotaShield.
    Now anymore fictional scenarios will be considered off-topic, and you will be still be asked for real verifiable data. Otherwise we will think you are a sadist or clown who likes seeing children suffer from a vaccine preventable disease.

  150. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Concern troll much?
    Also, let’s see some actual scientific citations for your assertions.

  151. nasik says:

    My hypothetical scenario is perfectly valid. Hypothesis…an assumption used in an argument, a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument, a mere assumption or guess.
    Would you allow your own child into a room when healthy people are coming out sick within mins., no matter what the management claims?
    This is the essence of LOGIC; the SCIENCE of thought, course of thought, good sense, sound judgement, train of thought, rational, deduction, argumentation, syllogistics, and COMMON SENSE.
    Intellect does not come from mindlessly following without question. Einstein -‘the whole of science is nothing more than the refinement of everyday thinking’ -‘it takes a lot of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction’.
    I am assessing data from both sides, while not being naive enough to heedlessly believe every study which may potentially be tainted by financial agendas. Further, I don’t dismiss the statements of the many, many people and their families who claim they’ve witnessed death or severe impairment after vaccinations, but due to lack of independent labs, are unable to show anything but correlation. However, not being able to prove without a reasonable doubt does not make their statements false. THIS is a ‘logical’ deduction.
    And Chris, a sadist would be one to send their child into that ‘hypothetical’ room.

  152. Chris says:

    Nasik: “My hypothetical scenario is perfectly valid. Hypothesis…an assumption used in an argument, a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument, a mere assumption or guess.”
    Bah-hah-ha-ha-ha… that is hilarious.
    “I am assessing data from both sides, while not being naive enough to heedlessly believe every study which may potentially be tainted by financial agendas.”
    Oh, goody. Then will be so kind as to tell us what financial agendas are tainting the studies listed in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence. Be sure to list the study, the direct quote of the COI of the funding and explain why they are tainting the study.
    And while you are at, do explain why preventing a disease brings more money to pharmaceutical companies. Truly tell us why it makes more financial sense to let every child get chicken pox where they spend two weeks out of school, may require a parent to get a leave of absence from work (sometimes for a month if multiple kids get it sequentially like what happened to my kids), and have nine thousand hospitalized with a hundred deaths per year. Here is some example of the financial evaluation I would like to see:
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    “And Chris, a sadist would be one to send their child into that ‘hypothetical’ room.”
    The actual hypothetical room you describe is if the room is all filled with unvaccinated people and at least one has an active measles infection. Because measles is that infectious (and don’t forget the 20% chance of pneumonia with a one in thousand chance fo encephalitis). Seriously, only a sadist would make up out of thin air the most idiotic reasons to not protect their child from measles, chicken pox, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hib, mump, etc.
    Right now you are being both disgusting and hilarious. So cough up some real data if you want to be taken seriously.

  153. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – actually, why deal with hypotheticals, since we know exactly what happens when either all or the majority of a population doesn’t vaccinate….we do know, as a fact, that a extremely high rate of individuals will suffer severe reactions to any of the vaccine preventable diseases (whether it is 1 in 1000 cases of Measles that leads to encephalitis or 1 in 10,000 cases where a death will occur) than the “chance” that 1 in 1 million individuals may develop encephalitis from the vaccine.
    While we do a great job in keeping people alive nowadays – for those unfortunates that still get stricken with a VPD, we can no nothing about the higher percentages that will still suffer the side effects from these diseases – such as deafness, blindness, sterility, and congenital birth defects from Rubella….or things as simple as the progression of these diseases to cause pneumonia and other secondary infections / side-effects that can lead to life-long problems.
    These aren’t hypotheticals – they are real life. These are facts that we know from the human history of these diseases – to turn nasik’s obscenely idiotic hypothetical around, if you knew that sending your child into a room (to get infected) could result in a 1 in 100 chance of severe complications or even 1 in 1000 chance versus getting a vaccine that may have a 1 in 1 million or 1 in 10 million chance of severe reaction, which would you pick?
    Mind you, the risk above is real for the disease versus merely the idea that the vaccine may cause a severe reaction. If the anti-vax numbers were anywhere close to reality (claiming hundreds of thousands, if not millions of severe reactions and deaths), don’t you think it would be obvious? That kids would be dropping like flies in Pediatric Offices all over the country? All they are left with at this point is to claim “conspiracy” that millions of health care professionals, all over the world, are in on the cover-up….which immediately invalidates their arguments.

  154. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, a better hypothetical scenario would be the following. Thousands of people enter and leave a skyscraper each day. A few people accidentally died falling down a staircase. Would you send your children into that skyscraper?

  155. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – nasik’s hypothetical is actually extremely well suited for what it would be like if no one vaccinated – or in the case of an outbreak of smallpox (where mortality rates would be anywhere between 35 – 98.5%)…why on Earth would someone send their kid in to be infected, if it was known that a simple, safe, and effective vaccine could prevent the infection with a vanishingly small chance of a negative reaction?

  156. nasik says:

    Again, ‘sigh, sigh, sigh’! My point exactly Chris! ‘Bah hahaha haha? ‘You’re not only illogical, but you’re flagrantly injudicious, with your superficial attempt at humor.
    ‘Why deal with hypotheticals’ on this site? Because you have the arrogant tendency to dismiss the other side of the coin. You gloss over many reports of vaccine harm, with your prejudicial inclination for deciding that these families are lying about the chain of events that they’ve witnessed first hand. Many injuries/deaths are labeled ‘undetermined’, because the cause can’t be proven without a doubt. However, should a vaccine cause inflammation, leading to myocarditis, you assume it to be a genetic heart anomaly, without honestly considering that an effect of vaccine led to another adverse effect of a compromised immune system, which led to the inflammation in the heart, causing death. Many logical thinkers would speculate that the cause of death was initiated by the vaccine. But you erroneously REFUSE to consider such, with extreme prejudice.
    You want clear cut evidence from these families. Where is your clear cut evidence of medical proof that Amy requested, showing that people who became injured or died shortly after vaccination, would have gotten ill or died anyway, regardless of not partaking in the chemical and biological assault?
    Sadly, while I’m not saying that you lack the intellect, you certainly lack the attitude for processing perspectives that differ from your own.
    THAT’S why I used a hypothetical scenario! But you couldn’t even get this concept without tripping over the numbers.
    No sane parent, observing such a ‘hypothetical’ event, would dare send their child into such a situation, regardless of the assurance of safety or the comments of irrational zealots TRIPPING over their own statistics.

  157. Chris says:

    Nasik, you made an assertion on finances when you said: “I am assessing data from both sides, while not being naive enough to heedlessly believe every study which may potentially be tainted by financial agendas.”
    Now answer the question about the tainting of the studies in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence.
    Then tell us exactly how it is better financially to let every child get chicken pox, even though before the vaccine was introduced in 1995 the disease caused around nine thousand hospitalizations and a hundred deaths.
    Also, you really should stop trying to tell me what I “assume.” I mentioned one case where multiple EKGs shows an irregular heartbeat before the vaccine. I merely asked what was more probable: the vaccine or something that was already present (and known about).
    Just answer the questions with real data, and stop making stuff up.

  158. Lawrence says:

    There is only one zealot here nasik…you should take a hard look in the mirror.

  159. nasik says:

    Chris, you insolently flatter yourself, thinking I know what you’ve mentioned in each one of your posts on here. “Stop telling you what you ASSUME Chris?” I think you need to stop assuming that I was speaking to you when I mentioned vaccine, immune system and inflammation correlation. I was answering the question Lawrence asked you in his little vignette to you. “Chris, why deal with hypotheticals?”
    And Chris, now you ask for evidence for my statement, “not being naive enough to heedlessly believe every study which may be potentially tainted by financial agendas”?
    Okay! As a former notary public, I assert that “I’m not naive enough to believe each and every study that comes along to be factual, without careful consideration, especially those which I believe may be potentially tainted by financial agendas. Under sworn oath, I attest that I believe such.” ‘Oh goody!’ Happy now Chris? You look farcical.
    Just answer the questions and stop evading them. Can you show Amy the medical studies showing people harmed from vaccines would have been so harmed, had they not been vaccinated, and ‘would you knowingly allow your child to walk into what APPEARS to a logical thinking person, to be a threatening situation’?

    • reissd says:

      “Can you show Amy the medical studies showing people harmed from vaccines would have been so harmed, had they not been vaccinated,” The question is circular, because the point we have been making is that for many of these people, there’s no evidence their harms were actually caused by vaccines. Again, VAERS reports are not evidence that someone was harmed by a vaccine, not without further investigation. So, do you have actual evidence these people were harmed by vaccines? Because without it, your hypothetical is not a good parallel, as already explained.

  160. Chris says:

    Just because you verified a person signed a document by pressing the piece of paper with a seal and signing it does not give you any extra credence. Answer the question. Tell us how the financials of the studies in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence are tainted. List each paper and directly quote the COI’s showing the finances are suspect.
    Then provide a verifiable economic analysis that it is better financially to allow each child in the USA to get chicken pox with the resulting nine thousand hospitalizations and hundred deaths instead of providing them two varicella vaccines.
    I don’t care about your beliefs, I care about the actual data and evidence. Something you seem to not want to provide. Why is that? What do you have to gain from letting kids get chicken pox?

  161. nasik says:

    Amy explained the vaers abstract to you above, but apparently, you like me, put little stock into the so called reporting facade. My hypothesis remains valid, thank you very much, resissd. It need not be parallel, scientific, or legal. It doesn’t even have to cite statistics. It’s a hypothesis, as in ‘let’s assume’.
    So you don’t believe a witnessed, sworn deposition Chris, yet you believe anything else that doesn’t rock your little world? Well ‘goody’ for you Chris because I have a newsflash for you. Some government employees don’t color inside the lines, and then they lie about it.

  162. Gray Falcon says:

    A witnessed, sworn deposition can still be mistaken. Details can be forgotten and misremembered easily. Anyone who has ever studied forensics will know that. A VAERS report is a good place to start, but it can still be in error.
    Also, yes, we know government officials can lie. We also believe in “innocent before proven guilty”. If you have an accusation, prove it! No more vague allegations.

  163. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Amy explained the vaers abstract to you above,”
    And she was wrong. There is also the Vaccine Safety Datalink Program. Plus she made statements without providing any citations. She claimed: “The head of the FDA said that only between 1 and 10% of adverse reactions to vaccines are reported to it.” What FDA head and when?
    And what “abstract”? Please do not be referring to Comment #109, Monica made several factual errors about what the abstract said (which I found despite her munging up the cite). I corrected her later.
    Now, you find the studies tainted by funding, so please look at the studies on Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, and tell us the issues with the funding.
    Also tell us why we will be better off letting all kids get chicken pox even though before 1995 there were nine thousand hospitalized and a hundred deaths each year from chicken pox.

  164. nasik says:

    I called the vaers an abstract because of the lack of credibility I put into it. Contrary to your belief Chris, my planet doesn’t revolve around you. So no! Whatever comment 109 is, my form of calling vaers abstract, is inapplicable to your comment 109. But ‘goody’ for you and your ability to ‘unmung’ people. You sure are a pushy little vaxer, eh Chris? Sorry, but I already have a dad.
    Thank you for helping me make my case Gray Falcon. We can assume that even the government who we vote into office to make lawful regulations to protect us, often side with lobbyists, which don’t have our well being in mind. And reports can often contain errors. I certainly agree. And lastly, when you profess your belief of ‘innocent until proven guilty’, I DO hope you’re including the families who give genuine testimony, considering the events leading to vaccine injury or death, as they observed them, authentically determine the vaccine to be the causal event.
    Unless you are prejudiced against these families, why would you not believe their stories until you ‘prove them guilty’? But that is what you would need to do. You would need to ‘PROVE them guilty’, otherwise, why would I not consider their analogies to be true? Can you prove their accounts of the events they witnessed to be untrue? So I would be remiss to not contemplate their assertions along with the science studies that you promote.

  165. Chris says:

    You do know that Barbara Loe Fisher was part of the creation of both VAERS and the NVICP as part of her work towards the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act? And do tell what you need to read and understand before using the VAERS database from its official portal?
    Anyway, what stories? Where are the case studies? Doctors love getting their special case studies published, and if your stories are true many should be indexed on PubMed. Here is an idea, give us some of those PubMed Identification Numbers.
    Now, where is that other evidence that the varicella vaccine causes nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths per year? Still can’t find them? Why don’t you review these papers:
    J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 1;197 Suppl 2:S170-7. doi: 10.1086/522161.
    Safety of varicella vaccine after licensure in the United States: experience from reports to the vaccine adverse event reporting system, 1995-2005.
    PMID: 18419393
    and
    J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 1;197 Suppl 2:S165-9. doi: 10.1086/522125.
    The safety profile of varicella vaccine: a 10-year review.
    PMID: 18419392

  166. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, simple question. If a mother accused you of making her child ill by giving him the evil eye, what would the appropriate response be? Would it be cruel to her and her child to demand she prove her case? Should we simply burn you at the stake just to be sure?

  167. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Seeing that you cannot answer the questions asked of you in an honest manner, we must assume that you are just trolling and that you admit that you’ve been lying to us the entire time.
    Again, why can’t you answer the questions asked of you?

  168. Chris says:

    Better yet, why does Nasik want kids to suffer ten to fourteen days with dozens of open itchy sores (pox)? Why is she/he so intent to let chicken pox run free through our kids?

  169. nasik says:

    While I’m sure Ms. Fisher is a very nice person, I don’t really care who originated vaers. It’s irrational that you feel I would change my opinion based on it’s inception. What planet do you live on, that you’ve missed thousands of claims that vaccines have caused death, and lifelong disability? So “what stories”? THOSE stories!
    My turn! ‘Anyway, what evidence?’ I don’t see in my comments where I agreed to find you any evidence, and I certainly never claimed that I couldn’t find ‘them?’. Sadly, Chris, your logic resembles that of one who is quite disconnected.
    Forgive me Gray Falcon, but I don’t know how to interpret your question. Additionally, you seem to be oddly preoccupied with burning witches at the stake. I fail to see your correlation to vaccine safety.

  170. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, you yourself said:

    However, just because my scenario was fiction, does not mean that one can’t deduce a LOGICAL conclusion to my conceptual characterization.

    You have no right to complain about my hypothetical scenarios if you keep demanding I accept yours. Anyway, my point of contention is your statement:

    Unless you are prejudiced against these families, why would you not believe their stories until you ‘prove them guilty’?

    That is simply a scenario based on your apparent belief that a parent’s word should simply be accepted as true without question. And the reason I mention burning witches (or hanging, historically, witches have been hanged, you should know that) is because that was an alarmist reaction that caused harm to innocent people. Same as the anti-vaccine movement.

  171. Chris says:

    Nasik: “What planet do you live on, that you’ve missed thousands of claims that vaccines have caused death, and lifelong disability?”
    Obviously I have missed them, possibly because I don’t live on Htrae. When did you ever link to the compilation of those claims related to the varicella vaccine? Could you please list those PubMed indexed case studies? Also, I only see less than 3500 cases that have been compensated in over twenty years, and only forty have been for varicella (or 51 if you count MMRV, which is no longer given to toddlers).
    This seems to be a very small number compared to the millions of varicella vaccine doses given in the last eighteen years (I know how long it is by taking my daughter’s age and subtracting one since she got it as an infant a year before the vaccine was available). And the total numbers since 1988 are certainly very small compared to the nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths due to chicken pox each year in the USA before 1995.
    I have linked a couple of websites and cited at least three studies. Why haven’t you? Where is your data? Where are those claims documented other than VAERS? And what must you read and understand before you use the VAERS database at its official portal?
    I mean if VAERS caught the issues with RotaShield with so few numbers, why have we not seen the same thing with the varicella vaccine over a much longer time span? In fact, why do the 2008 reviews of varicella vaccine VAERS reports show that the claims decreased since the 2000 review?
    Though here is the most important question: why do you want chicken pox to come back and infect kids?

  172. nasik says:

    My arrangement of the hypothetical scenario I posed to you, didn’t involve morbid ideations such as burning witches at the stake. “Witches have been hanged, you should know that”. Gray Falcon, did you just call me a witch?
    Since I spend all my free time exploring relevant and educational data, I’ve never had time for the comic book genre Chris. However your replies show where your odd sense of humor originates. Bizarro world! Hilarious! “Ba hahaha!”
    “When did you ever link claims to varicella vaccine?”, should more accurately read, ‘when did I ever state I would link any such claims to the varicella vaccine?’. Do you like talking to yourself Chris? Because no one else takes your lengthy provocations for links to your ‘case studies’ seriously.

  173. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik :
    My arrangement of the hypothetical scenario I posed to you, didn’t involve morbid ideations such as burning witches at the stake. “Witches have been hanged, you should know that”. Gray Falcon, did you just call me a witch?

    No, how did you come to that conclusion? If you tend to jump to conclusions like that, perhaps you shouldn’t be discussion iof medicine. Let me remind you that people have died from chickenpox, so my analogy still stands.
    Also, nearly everyone nowadays knows that witches were hanged, not burned, in the Salem witch trails. If you’re so well-read, how do you not know such a piece of common knowledge?

  174. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, didn’t you you say, loudly and vehemently, “Hypothetical means FICTION.”? I never actually called for you to be burned or hanged, so why are you so upset over fiction?

  175. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Thank you for admitting that you admit that the chickenpox vaccine is safer than the disease itself, since you continually refuse to answer the question.

  176. Chemmomo says:

    nasik, let’s go back to your hypothetical scenario:
    “Again, 50 healthy people walk into an empty room, and when they exit, 20 are showing severely adverse health problems. Officials on the scene claim it safe, but for the sake of deliberation, 30 more people enter the empty room after it’s determined safe by the authorities, and now, 10 exit, having seizures, myocarditis, and severe mental confusion.”
    You first observed 50 people who appeared to be healthy enter a room, and 20 people who appeared unhealthy plus 30 more who appear healthy exit, then the next 30 people, for a total of 80 entering, and 30 who exit described as ill.
    What if you learned that the medical professionals who cared for the people exiting found that all but one of those 30 were actually ill before they ever entered the room?
    What if you learned that while all the people claiming illness came out the door you were observing, another ten thousand people had gone through the room at the same time with no ill effects, but you hadn’t counted them because they’d used a different doorway?
    What if both of those things were true?

  177. Lawrence says:

    Nasik has gone down the path of several of our other trolls by refusing to directly articulate what its position actually is or by what Science or factual evidence it has come to that certain conclusion…..at this point, I can’t even tell what he is attempting to talk about anymore.

  178. nasik says:

    Thank you Chemomo, for your addition to this hypothetical quandary. But I’ll push even further, and also add that ‘should you choose not to enter the empty room, [where there has been no irrefutable data showing that these people were ill BEFORE they entered], that a severe storm is looming, and if you don’t enter, you have to consider the rare risk of your child being struck by lightening or flying debris’.
    Knowing our medical history and compromised immune systems [of which MANY suffer from today], I would rapidly assess both circumstances with great deliberation, and resolve to take my chances outside, and NOT allow my child into that room.
    To be clear, the causes of death have not been unconditionally substantiated. And for the sake of argument, I speak about what I can see before me; no hidden entrance/exit, or consideration of those who may have used the room before we arrived.

  179. Lawrence says:

    @nasik – please provide a real world comparison to your “hypothetical” scenario, because when it comes to vaccines, there has never been an instance even remotely close to your “thought exercise.”

  180. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Knowing our medical history and compromised immune systems [of which MANY suffer from today], I would rapidly assess both circumstances with great deliberation, and resolve to take my chances outside, and NOT allow my child into that room.”
    So what special medical knowledge you have to let your kids to suffer for almost two weeks with dozens of itchy open sores (pox)?
    Why won’t you answer my questions with actual data? Tell us why you are so special that you can make these declarations without bothering to provide any proof?

  181. Chris says:

    It just occurred to me to ask, if Nasik thinks her/his kids have “compromised immune systems” why would they fare better actually getting chicken pox than the vaccine? Why would getting the full blown disease better than preventing it? This is Htrae thinking, right there where it is okay to declare that there are thousands of injuries without providing any data.

  182. nasik says:

    ‘Bizzarro world thinking?’ No, that’s your thing Chris. A parent can easily learn whether their child has a compromised immune system. We don’t need to ‘think’ it so; we have medically ‘confirmed’ it to be so.
    And to indulge your question as to why I’d take my chances with nature, should my child get chicken pox [as millions have, and have had no lasting ill effects], it’s because it’s not an amalgamate of dozens of additional chemical and biological cooties, ingested orally, or injected directly into ones body, opposed to the elemental epidemiological transmission.

  183. Constance says:

    And if you get natural chickenpox, as everyone in my family has, you’ll have permanent immunity. You may get shingles later when your immune system is depressed, but you may get it if you get the vaccine as well. If you get it as a child, when it’s nearly always mild, you won’t get it as an adult when it’s much more dangerous. I agree with Nasik.

  184. Timothy says:

    Chris,
    In the town of Vittoria in Sicily, there was official proof that all the people had been vaccinated during their six monthly vaccination campaigns. When the epidemic of 1887-89 broke out, the number of deaths from smallpox was 2,100. As the total population of the villge was only 2,600, this meant that less than 20% of the population was left alive. Ruata, C. “Vaccination in Italy,” NY Med J July 22, 1899; 133-134. I’ve got lots more similar examples. I’ll keep looking for the citation where I read about the 98% vaccinated, 100% killed by smallpox

  185. Chris says:

    Nasik: “A parent can easily learn whether their child has a compromised immune system.”
    Then when not on Htrae, that parent will do all they can to protect their child by making sure all others are vaccinated through community immunity. Because a child with a compromised immune system will become even more ill and disabled, possibly die, if they encounter the wild virus if they are too delicate to get the weakened virus from a vaccine.
    “chicken pox [as millions have, and have had no lasting ill effects],”
    Except for the nine thousand hospitalizations and hundred deaths before 1995 that you are really ignoring.
    And yet, when a story like Jesse’s is presented as one who had a very permanent lasting effect, what is one of the first questions to dismiss this tragedy. Try this one from Comment #141 from the every morphing Cindy/Andrea/Monica: “While those who die of usually mild VPDs are usually previously immunecompromised, not all of them were.”
    So your child must have some special Htrae compromised system that only mild vaccine viruses are dangerous, and the wild virus is safe.
    Also, what makes you so special that you don’t have to provide any evidence?

  186. Timothy says:

    Parents should read VAERS reports for several hours before they get any vaccine, and see if the reports filed by the families or medical professionals on severe vaccine damage or death sound unrelated to the vaccine or not. Any normal person would be stunned by the authenticity of their tragic experiences. They should definitely read all 7,000 of the comments on Katie’s blog, hundreds of them by grieving parents of vaccine-damaged children, before allowing any member of their family to get Gardasil. You say they were all coincidental. Fine, it is your function to say that. Parents had better check it out before they take a step that is impossible to recall. I remember Gray Falcon saying that if it couldn’t be absolutely proven that the vaccine was to blame for apparent damage or death, then parents were obligated to give their children the vaccines. It surprised me at the time that he thought that was a logical sequence. In my case, if several people told me that a certain babysitter had behaved abusively to their children, I wouldn’t feel that I had to hire her to babysit my children unless a court of law had found her guilty beyond the shadow of doubt. I have no obligation to pay her money to put in her college fund. My children’s well-being is my only concern. If tens of thousands of parents say, as they have, that Gardasil, DTaP, MMR, hepatitis-B vaccine, flu vaccine, whatever, irreparably damaged or even killed their children, I take it seriously and weigh it in the balance against the information sponsored by anyone who profits from the vaccine status quo. It’s hard for me to imagine anyone dying from chickenpox, I remember it very vividly as being no big deal. I understand that some hapless people have died of many things that are harmless for most people, and I regret their suffering. But I’d still rather my children get chickenpox the natural way the way I and everyone I know did, than take their chances with vaccine damage.

  187. Lawrence says:

    @Timothy – VAERS reports are just that, reports. There is no follow up information provided on whether or not they are legitimate entries (just check out the ones under Gardasil deaths if you don’t believe me).
    And if your child is one that dies of Chicken Pox, what would you say then?

  188. Lawrence says:

    Here is irrational thinking for you – 3000 women die every year from Cervical Cancer, tens of thousands more are diagnosed, dozens of babies die of pertussis, and thousands of people still die from the flu…yet the anti-vax individuals don’t even bat an eye…..one person reports a serious reaction to a vaccine & they all lose their damn minds.
    The hypocrisy of the anti-vax movement is incredible to witness.

  189. nasik says:

    Chris, I fear you’ve been blinded by your luminescent, mercury riddled, super vacs cape, and your rationale has been affected by to much time in comic book land.
    Oddly, I don’t see the proof Amy asked you to provide yesterday. ‘What makes you so special’ [besides your cape & fetish for comic books], ‘that you’ve not provided the evidence asked for?’
    You are DEAD wrong Chris. Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized, as it’s been shown that vaccines cause inflammation, and to much inflammation can kill. Please take your nose out of your comic books Chris, and keep YOURSELF up to date on the scientific references, just as we do for ourselves.
    Vaccines are filled with many other ingredients, while the wild virus is not. Also as stated above, the transmission is altered and this is also important. But what the heck! The world is full of good and bad cooties. And of course most parents will do what they feel is best for their children, considering their individual history, lots of ‘impartial’ research of validated science, and INFORMED CONSENT, as it’s supposed to be offered by the medical community. I’ve done no less for my children.
    While it’s so very, very unfortunate for those who suffer adverse effects or death from natural diseases, you DO know what dictates in nature don’t you Chris? Without interference from civilization, our primordial functions would have cued our HEALTHY immune systems to fight off invaders. And as in the rest of the animal kingdom, survival of the fittest would rule. Our immune systems today have suffered the evolutionary effects of exposure to many toxins.
    So while I’m certainly NOT ignoring those who become compromised or died of natural disease, I logically conclude that the risk of getting the disease and having a long lasting adverse effect for our situation, is far less harmful than the decision to purposefully inject ourselves with not only the natural cootie, but with a plethora of toxic sludge added to the mix.
    How about your Chris? Why do YOU not pay homage to those injured or killed by vaccinations? You not only IGNORE them, you invalidate their very existence.

  190. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, if you have evidence, why haven’t you provided it? Is your ego more important than people’s health? Or are you hoping your self-righteousness will be enough?

  191. Chris says:

    Timothy: “Ruata, C. “Vaccination in Italy,” NY Med J July 22, 1899; 133-134. I’ve got lots more similar examples.”
    Well, please provide the URL links to them. I tried to find that document, and the only one on PubMed that came close was Smallpox and Vaccination in Italy dated 1894.
    There only four hits on Google, and absolutely only one had all of those words: an Amazon comment from a former lawyer in Missouri who has been banned here several times. One who does not like using paragraphs, and has a habit of changing usernames multiple times in a thread.
    Hello there Cindy/Monica/Amy/Tim/etc… aka Cia Parker.
    Nasik: “You are DEAD wrong Chris. Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized,”
    Good, prove me wrong. Provide the PubMed indexed studies by those qualified reputable researcher that those with compromised immune systems are more damaged by the vaccines than the diseases.
    “Why do YOU not pay homage to those injured or killed by vaccinations? You not only IGNORE them, you invalidate their very existence.”
    Actually I do. I am very grateful that when his immune compromised son was paralyzed by the OPV, John Salamone worked with the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices to replace it with the IPV.
    But you see one big difference, the IPV is less strong than the OPV. Just like the virus in the varicella vaccine is not as strong as the full virus.

  192. nasik says:

    For as much time as you and Gray Falcon spend on this site Chris, if I was able to acquire such sources, I’m sure seasoned internet users as yourself, are quite capable. [you have to put down the comic books though] – Also see above, as I suggest that you ‘move AWAY from the comics; nothing to see there’, and do your own research.
    I’ve read enough of your comments to know that as Tim and Amy have shown, you blindly dismiss whatever doesn’t suit your prejudicial opinion. And where is ‘your’ evidence that Amy has asked for? How convenient that you refuse criteria that you insist on from others.

  193. Chris says:

    Gray Falcon: “nasik, if you have evidence”
    He/she must think lobbing insults at me a is a valid form of evidence. Personally, I think it just shows a lack of logic and science, along with being a violation of this sites comment policy
    Anyway, he/she made a testable claim with: “Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized,”
    Let’s hope we will finally see some actual PubMed studies now. I love how I am supposed to “do my own research”, even though I am the only who has posted actual studies in reply to Nasik. Here are some I found when I put in the search terms “varicella vaccine safety”, it shows the level of research. I’ll leave up to Nasik to look them up to at least read the abstracts:
    Vaccine. 2013 Dec 24. pii: S0264-410X(13)01742-8. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2013.12.011. [Epub ahead of print]
    Risk of febrile convulsions after MMRV vaccination in comparison to MMR or MMR+V vaccination.
    Vaccine. 2013 Dec 9;31(51):6155-60. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2013.10.060. Epub 2013 Oct 30.
    Long-term clinical studies of varicella vaccine at a regional hospital in Japan and proposal for a varicella vaccination program.
    Vaccine. 2013 Dec 2;31(49):5822-6. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2013.10.011. Epub 2013 Oct 14.
    Vaccination coverage levels among children enrolled in the Vaccine Safety Datalink.
    Przegl Epidemiol. 2013;67(2):195-7, 317-8.
    Chickenpox in Poland in 2011.
    Hum Vaccin Immunother. 2013 Aug 27;10(1). [Epub ahead of print]
    Fatal varicella due to the vaccine-strain varicella-zoster virus.
    Epidemiol Infect. 2013 Aug 12:1-8. [Epub ahead of print]
    Varicella vaccine uptake and associated factors in children in Hong Kong.
    J Infect Dis. 2013 Nov 1;208(9):1375-85. doi: 10.1093/infdis/jit344. Epub 2013 Aug 1.
    Safety and immunogenicity of heat-treated zoster vaccine (ZVHT) in immunocompromised adults.
    Vaccine. 2013 Jul 16. pii: S0264-410X(13)00908-0. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2013.06.098. [Epub ahead of print]
    Validity of a reported history of chickenpox in targeting varicella vaccination at susceptible adolescents in England.
    That was just the first page. I think it shows an interesting mix of studies, with one fatal case study, several international studies and work on immunocompromised adults. So surely, Nasik can come up with some kind of evidence for his/her assertions. Though from my own research it looks like it just came from thin air.
    (also note that Amy and Tim are both the same person who is very familiar to us, and who has been banned several times, as I have mentioned multiple times… just search her real name which is in the Amazon link for comments in previous articles here)

  194. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again, where is your evidence? All you have done is hand waving and ad hominem attacks against Chris and the other regular posters.
    But since you seem insistent on using such tactics, we can all assume that it is a tacit admission from you that you admit that Chris is right and you are wrong.

  195. nasik says:

    “violates comment policy”. – Yes you have Chris. Or again it comes down to your refusal to abide by your own criteria. So you can “ba haha and bizarro world” all you want, and you have the nerve to suggest that I’VE violated policy.
    Your references mean NOTHING [not one thing] to me. I highly scrutinize my fact finding to draw my own decisive and ‘neutral’ conclusions. I strongly advise you to do the same. You have far to small of a window of what you objectively accept as evidence for my higher standard of research. And I guess you didn’t get the memo which said that ‘no one takes your lengthy displays of ‘epub R us’, as your sole source for science seriously.’

  196. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again, why don’t you post actual evidence for your beliefs instead of consistently refusing to do so?
    Your consistent refusal, as well as using ad hominem attacks against Chris, who has laid out plenty of proof, as opposed to you, says volumes about your assertions and your character.

  197. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik :
    Your references mean NOTHING [not one thing] to me. I highly scrutinize my fact finding to draw my own decisive and ‘neutral’ conclusions. I strongly advise you to do the same. You have far to small of a window of what you objectively accept as evidence for my higher standard of research. And I guess you didn’t get the memo which said that ‘no one takes your lengthy displays of ‘epub R us’, as your sole source for science seriously.’

    nasik, what level of evidence do you require? Remember my example about the evil eye? By your standards, we should have simply burned you at the stake.

  198. Chemmomo says:

    nasik re #204 “And for the sake of argument, I speak about what I can see before me”
    I understand that. This is why I posed my extension of your hypothetical situation the way I did.
    My point was that your own direct observation might not be telling the whole story. Did you really miss that?

  199. nasik says:

    In MY hypothesis, I posed a question of assessing the LOGIC of our observations, while not just allowing what we are told by authoritarian figures to dictate our actions; especially when we need to trust them for the welfare of our children.
    I understand that you attempted to change MY hypothetical variables, Chemmomo, which is why I redirected back to my initial intent.
    There will always be unknown variables in life. My point was pertaining to the present and observable situation at hand, making a rapid, tentatively life altering decision, while trusting “what I can see before me”. No time to indulge in forensic science, taking years to experiment, weighing pros and cons. Often one needs to rely on good old fashioned common sense. Do I follow the line of cattle into slaughter, or use contemplative logic, while dismissing the word of those who may misrepresent the truth, and put my child at risk?
    Did you really miss THAT?

  200. Chris says:

    Nasik: “You are DEAD wrong Chris. Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized,”
    Good, prove me wrong. Provide the PubMed indexed studies by those qualified reputable researcher that those with compromised immune systems are more damaged by the vaccines than the diseases. Because it seems to go against common sense that a person with a compromised immune system would do worse with the weakened vaccine virus than the full strength wild virus.
    Nasik: “I am assessing data from both sides, while not being naive enough to heedlessly believe every study which may potentially be tainted by financial agendas.”
    Please go through Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, and then post which funded is “tainted by financial agendas” by quoting the COIs showing the funding, and explaining in your own words why they are tainted.
    Then explain why preventing a disease brings more money to pharmaceutical companies. Truly tell us why it makes more financial sense to let every child get chicken pox where they spend two weeks out of school, may require a parent to get a leave of absence from work (sometimes for a month if multiple kids get it sequentially like what happened to my kids), and have nine thousand hospitalized with a hundred deaths per year. Here is some example of the financial evaluation I would like to see:
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    Nasik: “What planet do you live on, that you’ve missed thousands of claims that vaccines have caused death, and lifelong disability?”
    Obviously I have missed them. I either live on the wrong planet, or missed where you provided the documentation of those claims. Could you please list those PubMed indexed case studies, or the thousands of compensated court claims? There are only 109 claims posted at the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program statistics for any varicella containing vaccine. In total less than 3500 claims that have been compensated by NVICP since 1988. Of those only forty have been for varicella (or 51 if you count MMRV, which is no longer given to toddlers).
    Also please provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the risk from the varicella vaccine exceeds that actually getting chicken pox (see CDC link above). The studies should be of this quality (note they both use VAERS data):
    JAMA. 2000 Sep 13;284(10):1271-9.
    Postlicensure safety surveillance for varicella vaccine.
    J Infect Dis. 2008 Mar 1;197 Suppl 2:S170-7. doi: 10.1086/522161.
    Safety of varicella vaccine after licensure in the United States: experience from reports to the vaccine adverse event reporting system, 1995-2005.
    Nasik: “What planet do you live on, that you’ve missed thousands of claims that vaccines have caused death, and lifelong disability?”
    Obviously I have missed them. Could you please list those PubMed indexed case studies? Also, I only see less than 3500 cases that have been compensated in over twenty years, and only forty have been for varicella (or 51 if you count MMRV, which is no longer given to toddlers).
    I have just explicitly listed four studies, and there are forty two in the Vaccine Safety pdf. So in one comment the quotient of actual medical literature listed by me is forty six papers. Now compare that to the citations posted by Nasik: 0.000 papers.
    Now as far as my reading material: Yesterday I finished reading Glorious Misadventures: Nikolai Rezanov and the Dream of a Russian America by Owen Matthews. It was a riveting non-fiction read with politics, incredible survival, cruelty, humor and lots of tragic deaths (one person had over a dozen kids where none survived) starting in the 1780s and into 1815 or so. Next in the pile is Against Their Will: The Secret History of Medical Experimentation on Children in Cold War America by Allen M. Hornblum, Judith Lynn Newman and Gregory J. Dober. It does not look like a fun read, but it does have a bit about vaccine research in institutions where disabled kids like mine used to be warehoused.

  201. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, your standards might work, were you infallible and omniscient.

  202. nasik says:

    “Goody” for you Chris. You have the time to read ancillary material, when other parents never get a break from the research required for THEIR vaccine disabled children. And sadly, in many situations, these individuals REMAIN warehoused.
    Does your lengthy duplication have a point? Never mind. Perhaps I’ll find it buried in your PUBlication above when I reach the conclusion in about an hour or so.

  203. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, are you trying to manipulate our emotions?

  204. Chris says:

    Nasik: “You have the time to read ancillary material, when other parents never get a break from the research required for THEIR vaccine disabled children.”
    He is now a young adult. When he was younger I did lots of reading looking in the see-through mirror as he was getting neurodevelopmental therapy, and while in medical building waiting rooms. Especially for the neurologist and cardiologist. There were also several times while waiting in an emergency department, and a couple of times for an MRI to be done. Next week I’ll be calling someone to set up a limited guardian trust to take care of him later.
    You see, I can play that game too.
    And yes, the lengthy duplication has a point: you not providing any evidence for your assertions. So if you read carefully you have made several provable statements, but have not answered any of those requests… multiple times.
    So, just provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than actually getting chicken pox.

  205. Lawrence says:

    @nasik – I guess you missed the part where Chris’ son is permenantly disabled from a vaccine preventable disease…..

  206. nasik says:

    I saw your laughable ‘score card’ Chris, and of course choose to LOGICALLY evade it. “So provide pubmed studies to prove assertions”. Again, laughable. “You see, I can play that game too.” Well I choose NOT “to play {your} games” Chris.
    Do you expect me to feel pity for YOU when I’ve seen you slice into others who’ve shared the same story with you, only their families were severely neurologically and permanently damaged by innocently complying with vaccine mandates? Your replies to them were cutting, condescending and void of compassion.
    I can match you, trauma for trauma, and then raise you 1000, on the unjust consequences of medicine, as can thousands of other parents who echo my story. Only I’ve done what you’ve done for over 25 yrs. and am still involved 24/7 for an adult child. Oh yeah! I could play your game should I choose to; frequent er visits, months at a time hospital stays, setting up the trust, horrid pharmaceutical side effects where our child could not recognize parents and siblings, recommendation for institutionalization, and the list goes on and on.
    The same lack of empathy can be said for Lawrence and Gray Falcon, unless the adversity is disease related, and not vaccine. Subsequently, no Lawrence. I missed nothing. Why should you receive what you deny others; sympathy, compassion & predominantly UNDERSTANDING?
    So again, “goody” for YOU Chris; able to enjoy leisurely reading time. Because thousands of vaccine injured families must continue with extensive research to help their loved ones, while advocating for the discontinuation of dumping toxic materials into our children.

  207. Chris says:

    Nasik, you have pointedly refused to back up any of your provable claims with any evidence. It all seems to be made up out of thin air. Why should we believe you?

  208. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, listen very closely. Plenty of people use inflammatory language. Con artists use it. Religious fanatics use it. Murderous tyrants use it. And you use it. Where is your evidence? If you can match us “trauma for trauma, and then raise you 1000, on the unjust consequences of medicine”, then why haven’t you? If you’re doing what’s right, then why are you relying on the tactics of the wicked?

  209. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again, why should anyone believe you when you continually defame regular posters here as well as not provide any evidence for your assertions.
    Why should any rational person believe you.
    Now, since you keep dodging the questions asked of you, let’s give you 3 posts to answer Chris’ questions. Failure to do so means that you admit that you cannot answer the question and admit that vaccines are more safer than the diseases that they help prevent.

  210. nasik says:

    Chris, you have pointedly refused to provide the evidence that Amy had asked for, which subsequently I would like to inspect also. Where is your proof that individuals who were harmed by vaccine, would have suffered the same medical harm, even ‘without’ being vaccinated? Why should anyone believe you if you won’t provide proof of your claims?
    “tactics of the WICKED”? – as in ‘wicked witches’ Gray Falcon? Is there a man behind the curtain in your world too?
    But for the record GF, my comment ‘trauma for trauma’ was pertaining to Chris’s personal story of her son, relating to what vaccine injured families must endure. Not to mention having to bear the continual denunciation from sites such as this.

  211. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik :
    Chris, you have pointedly refused to provide the evidence that Amy had asked for, which subsequently I would like to inspect also. Where is your proof that individuals who were harmed by vaccine, would have suffered the same medical harm, even ‘without’ being vaccinated? Why should anyone believe you if you won’t provide proof of your claims?

    When did he make that claim in the first place? And how would one go about proving it, anyway?

    “tactics of the WICKED”? – as in ‘wicked witches’ Gray Falcon? Is there a man behind the curtain in your world too?

    Since you didn’t address my point in any meaningful way, I can only assume you agree with me, and you really are nothing more than a con artist.

    But for the record GF, my comment ‘trauma for trauma’ was pertaining to Chris’s personal story of her son, relating to what vaccine injured families must endure. Not to mention having to bear the continual denunciation from sites such as this.

    So where are all these cases? You have them, right? Otherwise, all the denunciation you received has been well-deserved. Anyone can make accusations. Why should I act on an accusation without evidence?

  212. nasik says:

    GF, I DO give you credit for quite a vivid imagination. But you also make a good point above, so I’d like to amend my comment to say “not to mention having to bear the continual and unfounded prejudicial denunciation from sites such as this”. That’s far more accurate. Prejudicial, as in a preset button that is jammed, and no amount of evidence provided to you people will sway your illiberal opinions.

  213. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, you would have nothing to lose from providing your evidence. As such, there is only one logical conclusion: It doesn’t exist. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, you could try not acting like a jerk?

  214. Chemmomo says:

    nasik #225
    “My point was pertaining to the present and observable situation at hand, making a rapid, tentatively life altering decision, while trusting “what I can see before me”. My point was pertaining to the present and observable situation at hand, making a rapid, tentatively life altering decision, while trusting “what I can see before me”.”
    My point was that you made a decision based on incomplete information.

  215. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Strike 1 and 2.

  216. Gray Falcon says:

    @Chemmomo- Nasik’s way of thinking works in an immediate life-or-death situation, when one has no other choice. Here, however, he has plenty of time and effort to do research on his decision. Why is he acting like there’s a tiger chasing him?

  217. nasik says:

    YOUR point was duly noted. MY point was ‘sometimes you have to make a common sense decision without the luxury of waiting years for the forensic science to determine an irrefutable conclusion.’
    You people apparently like playing games. Sorry novalox. Baseball bores me. Not a big fan.

  218. Gray Falcon says:

    Years? We only asked you to take a few hours, days at most, to actually read up on the subject. This is no game, human lives are at stake.
    Now tell me, why have you refused to give us the evidence we requested? “Because you would have dismissed it out of hand” is not an acceptable reason. I have no patience for cowards and liars.

  219. Chris says:

    Nasik: ‘sometimes you have to make a common sense decision without the luxury of waiting years for the forensic science to determine an irrefutable conclusion.’
    Common sense says that a child with a compromised immune system would do worse the the full wild virus than a weakened vaccine virus.
    I see no reason to answer any question by Amy/Cindy/Monica/Tim since I typically ignore Cia Parker. She has been banned several times. Also it had nothing to do with any testable claim I have made, and ones that I have provided citations (forty six).
    Now, Nasik, I have asked you to actually support your claims with evidence, but you refused, instead lobbing insults to all. You have had your three chances, and I even repeated your statements that you needed to provide verifiable evidence for, and you failed. We have no reason to believe you, and like the multiply banned Cia Parker (Monica/Andrea/Tim/Amy) you have been shown to be just a troll.

  220. nasik says:

    The TIGER is mandatory vaccinations for school age children, with inappropriate, ambiguous conclusions, and blatant disregard of the individual medical history of the child.
    To date, there is no IRREFUTABLE science showing that vaccines are totally without harm, or that ‘one size fits all’. Your site likes to ask posters, ‘what if YOUR child were the one injured by a preventable disease’? What if YOUR child were the one that suffers the harm from vaccine? In your thinking, that’s acceptable, since it’s for the greater good of YOUR children… so MINE are expendable in the name of science.
    Chemmomo and many here, have the attitude that present science has deemed the vacs ingredients safe enough for all individuals, for herd immunity, to protect society as a whole. But how many times has science proven a different outcome years later? I myself, have fallen victim to pharmaceuticals once deemed safe by the fda, only to have such decision rescinded and the drug pulled of the market. How many law suits do you see in the media regarding injuries from side effects of medications previously approved as safe? Do you assume these harmed individuals to ALL be liars as well?
    So science changes. What is fda approved and readily available to pump into your child today, may well be the thalidomide from the days of yore, tomorrow.
    The tiger is in the room NOW, and the science and evidence is divided and inconclusive at best. Some parents may be facing an immediate decision on what is not presently indisputably established. The evidence is all around you but you choose to refuse that which doesn’t fit your cozy and secure puzzle.

  221. nasik says:

    Now Chris, I have no idea WHO or what you’re blathering about now. Can you PROVE that these people are all the same, or as usual, have you just assumed such?
    Please don’t waste my time with a reply because I don’t really care that you think Amy is Tim and Monica is Cindy and they are ALL Parker???
    STATEMENTS ON A FORUM ARE NOT CLAIMS! But here’s a real CLAIM for you. I CLAIM that you’ve failed to present the evidence requested, showing that irrefutable science has determined ‘those harmed by vaccinations would have been harmed regardless of the vaccine’,

  222. nasik says:

    I see the sentences that you expect me to provide evidence to, as if they are some ‘scientific’ claim, and you’ve even MISQUOTED me.
    The first doesn’t need explanation since it’s a general statement. The second, you’ve erred badly on the quote, which totally misrepresents my actual statement. If you can fix that, then we can talk about my clarification of my ‘claim’.
    Your behavior in your quest for evidence is preposterous.

  223. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Strike 3.
    Your continuing failure to answer the questions posted to you indicates your admission that you admit that you cannot answer the question and admit that vaccines are more safer than the diseases that they help prevent.
    Anything else you post can be summarily dismissed as hogwash and lies until you answer the questions.

  224. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik :
    To date, there is no IRREFUTABLE science showing that vaccines are totally without harm, or that ‘one size fits all’. Your site likes to ask posters, ‘what if YOUR child were the one injured by a preventable disease’? What if YOUR child were the one that suffers the harm from vaccine? In your thinking, that’s acceptable, since it’s for the greater good of YOUR children… so MINE are expendable in the name of science.

    People have choked to death while eating. There’s literally no such thing as a risk-free activity! Don’t demand the impossible and be upset when we refuse to provide.

    nasik :
    Now Chris, I have no idea WHO or what you’re blathering about now. Can you PROVE that these people are all the same, or as usual, have you just assumed such?
    Please don’t waste my time with a reply because I don’t really care that you think Amy is Tim and Monica is Cindy and they are ALL Parker???

    Did you know the admin can see your IP address?

    STATEMENTS ON A FORUM ARE NOT CLAIMS! But here’s a real CLAIM for you. I CLAIM that you’ve failed to present the evidence requested, showing that irrefutable science has determined ‘those harmed by vaccinations would have been harmed regardless of the vaccine’,

    Look up the word “claim” in the dictionary. Also, ‘those harmed by vaccinations would have been harmed regardless of the vaccine’ is a null hypothesis. One doesn’t need to prove it, one needs to disprove it.

    nasik :
    I see the sentences that you expect me to provide evidence to, as if they are some ‘scientific’ claim, and you’ve even MISQUOTED me.
    The first doesn’t need explanation since it’s a general statement. The second, you’ve erred badly on the quote, which totally misrepresents my actual statement. If you can fix that, then we can talk about my clarification of my ‘claim’.
    Your behavior in your quest for evidence is preposterous.

    Why didn’t you provide the real quote and a link to the misquote? Again, why are you making accusations without providing the evidence? I’m not being mean or lazy, I really have no idea what you’re talking about!

  225. nasik says:

    @ Chris, per novalox
    Strike 3.
    Your continuing failure to answer the question posted to you indicates that you cannot answer the question and admit that those individuals harmed by vaccines would NOT have been injured or died without them.
    Anything else you post can summarily be dismissed as hogwash and lies until you answer the question.
    and why not just add,’ anything you say or do can be held against you in a court of law’
    practice what you preach
    ————————————————–
    GF, I do know that admins. can see ip’s…. but if the person/s were banned, they shouldn’t be able to post without using another ip. So how does Chris know for sure they are the same? Also, I should have ‘STATED’ that I was responding to Chris misquoting me.

  226. dingo199 says:

    Nasik, you seem to spend a heap of time batting away perfectly reasonable requests for evidence for your specious claims, and performing hand waving that is so frantic that you might just take flight any moment. Rather strange for someone who persistently says he won’t play games and hasn’t got the time to post here.
    I see you are a bit annoyed people have not responded to your extremely unlikely hypothetical scenario. Are you really surprised? It is so far removed from reality as to be laughable.
    Please shut the door on your way out – I wouldn’t want any other antivax sock puppets to slip back in, accidental like.

  227. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, trust and respect have to earned, not demanded.

  228. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again, thank you for admitting that you have nothing to offer except insult and ad hominems to hid the fact that you cannot answer the question.
    Also, thanks for the admission that you are hypocrite, since you still cannot answer the questions offered to you as well as admitting that vaccines are more safer than the diseases that they help prevent.
    Also, why should anyone bother to give you respect, when you have offered none at all. All you deserve is derision for your evasiveness and unfounded attacks.

  229. nasik says:

    More misquotes. A little late to ‘this particular party dingo’. Perhaps you should go back to where I came in. Chris said she could ‘play that game’ and keeps score with pubmen-tality, while novalox acts like he’s pitching a ball game.
    You should learn what was REALLY said before spouting off. I asked Chris to ‘not waste my time with a reply regarding a certain parker’s multiple personalities’. I never said I didn’t have time to post here.
    I’m not annoyed that no one responded to my hypothetical consideration of logic. I expected no one to respond, and actually posted only to make a point in answer to Tim’s previous comment on common sense.
    What is laughable is a site that expects posters to provide citations for every burp and fart mentioned, while members refuse to back up their own claims when we reciprocate the request for evidence of their own outrageous claims.
    Now be a nice little puppy and run along until you know the facts.

  230. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Why should anyone believe you at all, when you won’t back up your assertions and continue to insult people?
    Of course, your continuing use of insults says a lot about your character.
    And also, again, thanks for admitting that vaccines are more safer than the diseases that they help prevent.

  231. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, where and how have you been misquoted? Which claims have we made that we refused to back up?
    By the way, do you know who Peter Barlow is? He used “logic and common sense” to determine the law for the relationship between electrical resistance and current, without “wasting his time” on research and study. His result, Barlow’s Law, suggested that long-distance telegraphy was infeasible. The fact that we are having this conversation should reveal the flaws in his logic.
    Meanwhile, Georg Ohm actually bothered to observe and study the forces he was working with, and produced Ohm’s law, which was used to create long-distance telegraph networks, the predecessors to modern telecommunications.
    Science. It works, b****es.

  232. Gray Falcon says:

    PS. I was quoting Randall Monroe:
    http://xkcd.com/54/
    http://xkcd.com/836/

  233. Chemmomo says:

    nasik #246 “The evidence is all around you but you choose to refuse that which doesn’t fit your cozy and secure puzzle.”
    The same can be said about you. Your response to my pointing out you used incomplete information to make your decision is to hope that some day science will change and vindicate you.

  234. nasik says:

    Perhaps you missed my quote by Einstein shown above. LIFE IS SCIENCE. That doesn’t mean I want all of it injected into my naturally amazing body, which has evolved to fight the foreign cooties with my good cooties.
    I’ll be vindicated when there is absolute proof that vaccine causes adverse and serious effects in many and sites such as this, soliciting more toxins to our children without adequate time for experimental studies, will cease to exist. From my research, I won’t be waiting much longer.

  235. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, if you don’t approve of doing anything “unnatural”, please come to me on foot and tell me what you want to say in person. Did you read my comment in #257? Science doesn’t work the way you think it does. It doesn’t work on what people think is obvious, it overturns that. You’re the one arguing against science, not us.

  236. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Then please show us your “research”, since you consistenly refuse to show any evidence to support your position.
    Judging by your comments, as well as the actual science, however, you’ll be waiting quite some time for your “viewpoint” to be validated.

  237. Chris says:

    Nasik: “I’ll be vindicated when there is absolute proof that vaccine causes adverse and serious effects in many and sites such as this, soliciting more toxins to our children without adequate time for experimental studies, will cease to exist. From my research, I won’t be waiting much longer.”
    What research?
    It is not like I have not heard this declaration multiple times for more than a decade (first on a email listserv for my kid’s disability, though that turned out to be speculative paper by unqualified authors). Then there was the ephemeral Smarter Than You who made this declaration, and the disappeared before the declared date of revelation:

    I expect you to laugh at my words, but the funny thing is, I’m not joking. Something has been in the making since 2004 that is going to make many dead people roll over in their graves. It will be completed by about October/November 2010, but it may be a little bit after that when you all become very familiar with it. But once you do, you will all finally see where you went wrong, because you most certainly have, and even the worst of the worst of them, such as Paul Offit, will even finally acknowledge just how wrong he was once and for all.

    Again, Nasik, why should we believe you?

  238. Andrea says:

    Chris,
    Dr. Alfred Hill, medical officer of health, reported that in Birmingham, the most vaccinated city in England, from 1871-1874, there were 7,706 cases of smallpox there, of them, 6,795 had been vaccinated. (Vaccination Tracts: Facts and Figures, Young and Wilkinsen, Snow and Farnum, 1982, p. 5) In Bavaria, Germany, decades after vaccination became compulsory, with stiff penalties for noncompliance, there were 30,472 cases of smallpox, of them, 29,429 had been vaccinated. (Kolb, Royal Statistical Commission of Bavaria, in William White, The Story of a Great Delusion, 1885, p. 596.) The smallpox vaccine was always between usually and completely ineffective.

  239. Gray Falcon says:

    Andrea, probability 101: Consider the following:
    City with a population 1,000,000.
    99% are vaccinated against a disease.
    Vaccinated have 90% chance of protection.
    Non-vaccinated have 50% chance of protection.
    Outbreak occurs:
    99,000 of 990,000 vaccinated are infected.
    5000 of 10,000 non-vaccinated infected.
    Thus, of 104,000 cases, 99,000 are from those who used a vaccine, while the number of cases would be 500,000 otherwise. This is not much different than the examples you provided.

  240. nasik says:

    Before I get sand bagged for poorly phrasing 260, [ooops, seems I’m to late and how DID I know the usual suspects would be waiting], I disagree with you Chemmomo, that I used INCOMPLETE data to make my decision. I reiterate that I assessed the ‘facts I had on hand; as I logically observed them LIVE.’ Based on the need for rapid and serious consideration, and assessing whether management may have covered up the truth, due to any financial interest, my data was COMPLETE. MY science was ‘complete’.
    You still seem to be missing the point that in life, we don’t always get to consult our advisors, the computer, the stars, before needing to make a call on a life or death decision. I didn’t have time to wait for hazmat to investigate before my child was poised to enter the room. And going back to the point Tim made [to which I tried to embellish with my vignette] was that before our modern day scientific forensics, we were forced to make judgement calls based on logic and common sense. We don’t do that anymore which is why some murderers go free. We lack their dna on this or that, all they while the jury is certain she killed her daughter or he his ex wife.
    As it appears you’re a member here Chemmomo, I’m sure your friendly comrades wouldn’t begrudge you posting your own little story, with all the trap doors, invisible people which can’t be observed, an onsite cdc epidemiologist, and all the twists and turns you want to throw into your hypothesis for which you can take ALL into account as your COMPLETE data. All good if you have time to wait for science to make a conclusive decision before sending your child into such a situation.
    Again, MY point, and what I feel Tim was commenting on, was that we’ve let labs and computers do our thinking for us, and we may be extremely intelligent for all of this. But we’ve forgotten how to logically think for ourselves, and common sense seems to be an antiquated expression.
    And for the eagerly awaiting peanut gallery, please read and understand what’s put before you. I knew you’d be right there to jump on that Chris. I said ‘according to my research I won’t be waiting long’. Did I say it’s been conclusively proven yet? I did not. Just as you can not conclusively prove that vaccines are NEVER dangerous for some with preexisting conditions which doctors don’t screen for, but should.
    I love science and biology, organelles and endoplasmic reticulums like yourselves. What you all keep forgetting is that science has not DEFINITELY sided with the vaxers yet either, regarding the long term welfare of our children.

  241. nasik says:

    Well Chris, that is certainly looney tunes, but I don’t wear hats; tinfoil or otherwise. However, science is a ‘reality’, and the fact that science remains ambiguous on vaccine safety, is also a ‘REALITY’. Don’t write me for proof. Google it, and you’ll easily find scientists who continue to question the harmful effects many of the materials in vaccines can have on individuals with compromised health. Surely you’re not naive enough to think that ALL scientists irrefutably conclude that all vaccines are safe for all people. That would be illogical.

  242. Chris says:

    Ms. Parker (pretending to be Andrea, apparently her other personality Timothy is being suppressed): “(Vaccination Tracts: Facts and Figures, Young and Wilkinsen, Snow and Farnum, 1982, p. 5)”
    Not found with Google, nor on PubMed.
    “(Kolb, Royal Statistical Commission of Bavaria, in William White, The Story of a Great Delusion, 1885, p. 596.)”
    Found on whale.to, and listed as an anti-vaccine book on wikipedia. Scopie’s Law has been invoked.
    “The smallpox vaccine was always between usually and completely ineffective.”
    Real citations needed. Make sure that they are indexed on PubMed and the authors are both reputable and qualified. Oh, and a reminder: variola is not the same as varicella. Cia, I believe that you making a habit of posting off topic is just one of the many reasons you keep getting banned.
    Nasik, why should we care about what you say? Just post real citations and not stuff you make up out of thin air, and we will take you seriously. Until then, you are just another version of the ephemeral “Smarter Than You” and the repeatedly banned Cia Parker.

  243. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, if you have a problem with science, why are you using a computer? The Internet isn’t made of fairy dust and magic!

  244. Lawrence says:

    @nasik – you mean MBAs, Computer Scientists, disgraced doctors, or paleo-geologists?
    You mean those “scientists?”

  245. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Don’t write me for proof. Google it, and you’ll easily find scientists who continue to question the harmful effects many of the materials in vaccines can have on individuals with compromised health.”
    That is hilarious, especially after all of the real citations I have posted on this thread. If you make a claim you need to support it with real citations. The “use google yourself” is the lamest excuse possible for not supporting claims with real evidence.
    This is one big reason we have no reason to believe you, nor care about what you say.

  246. dingo199 says:

    nasik :Surely you’re not naive enough to think that ALL scientists irrefutably conclude that all vaccines are safe for all people. That would be illogical.

    Sigh…the boring old Nirvana fallacy.
    Of course no vaccines are 100% safe, and no scientist would claim otherwise. They do have side effects, you know, and I have never seen anyone here say they don’t. Get with the beat, Nas, and drop the same ol’ tired tropes and rote antivax propaganda sound bites, and try a bit of original thinking for a change.
    FYI, vaccines are recommended because on balance their benefits vastly outweigh their harms. Now this site and most of the posters here have provided numerous examples and citations of the benefits of vaccines. You, I note, have provided nothing, other than your ill-informed opinion. Perhaps you don’t know how to cite a journal, or don’t know how to look for evidence that corroborates your views?

  247. John says:

    I don’t believe Nasik has a problem with science, sounds to me like just the contrary. Go back and read again Gray Falcon, then maybe you’ll understand.

  248. Chris says:

    John, Nasik definitely has a problem with providing evidence for his/her statements. Now could you please go up where I compiled in Comment #226 those claims and answer my questions, since Nasik has failed to that.
    I am especially curious on the science that reveals those in compromised immune systems do better with the full strength wild virus, and are devastated by the weakened vaccine virus. Be sure to provide those PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers.

  249. Gray Falcon says:

    John :
    I don’t believe Nasik has a problem with science, sounds to me like just the contrary. Go back and read again Gray Falcon, then maybe you’ll understand.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science.
    Science isn’t about “common sense”, it’s about experimentation and examination, which nasik has declared utter contempt towards. If we used “common sense” instead of science, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, as we would have simply accepted telecommunications to be absurd.

  250. Chris says:

    Gray Facon: “If we used “common sense” instead of science…”
    … we would still think this planet if a flat box and the sun moves across the skies.
    Also, it seems that “common sense” that those with compromised immune systems need to be protected from diseases with community immunity by a high vaccination rate by those who can get vaccinated. It makes no sense that they would do well with the disease if they can be injured from just the vaccine.
    So I actually doubt Nasik’s definition of “common sense.”

  251. Chris says:

    Myself: “flat box”
    oops. Though that kind of explains one Flat Earth theory. I must be channelling Htrae. 😉

  252. Ben says:

    In what way does the vaccine injure the immunecompromised? Why is it that whatever this is never injures the heatthy, but only the immunecompromised? What gives anyone the right to force me to subject my healthy child to whatever damaging mechanism this is? How can you be sure it will not hurt him? Everyone has the right to freely choose whether to let their child take the risk of the vaccine-preventable diseases or the risk of the vaccines. Only the parent will live forever with the consequences. Chickenpox is a mild disease, I and everyone I know had it, and it is a great advantage to get it in childhood and never worry about it again.

  253. Gray Falcon says:

    Ben: Chickenpox is a mild disease, I and everyone I know had it, and it is a great advantage to get it in childhood and never worry about it again.
    Reality: Varicella Death of an Unvaccinated, Previously Healthy Adolescent — Ohio, 2009
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6214a1.htm

  254. Gray Falcon says:

    Ben: Actually, this article you just commented on has a case of someone dying from varicella, as well. Can’t believe I forgot that. Then again, so did you.

  255. nasik says:

    OH MY GOD! Evidence of WHAT Chris? It’s like 2 yr. olds run this site. Evidence that there’s a difference between logic and intellect; thought and science? I personally don’t give a rat’s a$$ whether you believe me or not. I have complete confidence in myself and my decisions.
    You don’t think straight Chris. I NEVER said what you CLAIM I said. See, you prove right here, another Einstein goody. Paraphrased, ‘why fill your memory with crap you can easily find in any encyclopedia’. You can cite facts and figures ’till the cows come home Chris, but your logical ‘thinking’ is skewed. I’m especially interested in whether you can copy and comprehend a quote verbatim.
    You really want to play the fallacy game dingo? Let me lug through your posts to point out all of your errors in ….. what? Oh! LOGIC! Latin was a prerequisite for college prep. You all think because the phrases are in latin, you suddenly sound smart. News flash! NO! And you’re right; boring! I’ve already seen how your members love to throw the fallacies around hoping it will mask your lack of logic to your opponent and readers will think you a genus. Ain’t happening! Lack of ‘original thinking’ is where you fail dingo, given you even chose to mention this sites severely overused nirvana fallacy.
    Thank you John. They don’t WANT to understand. It’s unbelievable how parochial and prideful some people are.
    And lastly, you are right again GF. Science is NOT about common sense. And I never said it was. However, LOGIC is the science of REASONING. Common sense is a byproduct of thought while utilizing REASON AND RATIONALE. Sadly, this is where you all seem to fail. Talk about puppets.

  256. Chris says:

    Go to Comment 226, there are direct quotes of your claims. You made them, so you need to provide the evidence for them.

  257. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Actually, the only one that is showing the nirvana fallacy, unoriginal thinking, and showing overt pride is you, considering that you still refuse to show or provide any evidence for your views as well as repeating ad hominem attacks on the regular posters here.
    But at least you admit to doing so, based on your latest post, so that’s not surprising.

  258. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Latin was a prerequisite for college prep. You all think because the phrases are in latin, you suddenly sound smart.”
    What phrases?

  259. nasik says:

    The logical fallacy game phrases.
    WRONG AGAIN CHRIS… 226 is YOU quoting ME, which you conveniently neglected to show that you paraphrased my comment, as there is a comma in my sentence which you fail to include in 226, followed by “as it’s been shown that vaccines cause inflammation”. But I didn’t end it there since I had added ‘and to much inflammation can kill’. My post was 215 for those who want to see how you blatantly took my sentence out of context for your own agenda. If I were as unoriginal as novalox and dingo say [but what I say of this site] I would reason that the misrepresentation was purposeful and claim a logical fallacy.
    vaccination council quoting nih -science daily and npr, among many others, concur regarding vaccine reaction, inflammation and the immune compromised, being at greater risk of injury due to inflammation.
    Stop badgering for evidence over statements which you wrongfully interpret, and do your own research from now on, should you be able to comprehend the data.

  260. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik: Reading your quote in context, all you’ve shown is you have still more claims you haven’t provided any evidence for.

  261. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Latin was a prerequisite for college prep. You all think because the phrases are in latin, you suddenly sound smart.”
    What Latin phrases? I don’t recall using any.

  262. Gray Falcon says:

    To clarify: Where has it been shown that vaccines cause inflammation? And where has it been shown that this causes more damage that the diseases? You weren’t misquoted, you’re just nitpicking in order to make yourself look good.

  263. Chris says:

    From Nasik’s comment #215:

    Chris, I fear you’ve been blinded by your luminescent, mercury riddled, super vacs cape, and your rationale has been affected by to much time in comic book land.

    An insult.

    Oddly, I don’t see the proof Amy asked you to provide yesterday. ‘What makes you so special’ [besides your cape & fetish for comic books], ‘that you’ve not provided the evidence asked for?’

    I have made it clear that I very seldom engage with Cia Parker, a person who has been banned here several times. I usually ask her to provide evidence for her assertions, and the “question” was based on those baseless assertions, so not worth bothering with. Especially after it became clear it was a previously banned person. She has a very distinct style which inludes the lack of paragraphs, wrong spellings in her “citations”, using citations that actually do not exist, and posting off topic comments, often diversions to other diseases. So far she has also posted as Monica, Cindy, Andrea and Timothy (the “citation” from “him” was only found in an Amazon book review comment posted by “ciaparker.”)
    Also, because I mentioned one word, Htrae, in comment #197 when I was asked “What planet do you live on,…”, I now have a comic book fetish? A continuation of the insults.

    You are DEAD wrong Chris. Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized, as it’s been shown that vaccines cause inflammation, and to much inflammation can kill. Please take your nose out of your comic books Chris, and keep YOURSELF up to date on the scientific references, just as we do for ourselves.

    Because you said I was wrong I asked you to provide the scientific references. I think I have sufficiently demonstrated on this thread that I know how to use PubMed. And still, if you make a claim, like you did in that paragraph, you are expected to back up that claim wih verifiable references.
    Again the following is the lamest excuse to not provide asked for evidence for a claim (from comment 267):

    “Don’t write me for proof. Google it, and you’ll easily find scientists who continue to question the harmful effects many of the materials in vaccines can have on individuals with compromised health.”

  264. Chris says:

    From Nasik’s comment #215:

    Chris, I fear you’ve been blinded by your luminescent, mercury riddled, super vacs cape, and your rationale has been affected by to much time in comic book land.

    An insult.

    Oddly, I don’t see the proof Amy asked you to provide yesterday. ‘What makes you so special’ [besides your cape & fetish for comic books], ‘that you’ve not provided the evidence asked for?’

    I have made it clear that I very seldom engage with that person, a person who has been banned here several times. I usually ask her to provide evidence for her assertions, and the “question” was based on those baseless assertions, so not worth bothering with. Especially after it became clear it was a previously banned person. She has a very distinct style which inludes the lack of paragraphs, wrong spellings in her “citations”, using citations that actually do not exist, and posting off topic comments, often diversions to other diseases. So far she has also posted as Monica, Cindy, Andrea and Timothy (who posted a “citation” where the only google hit was a posting by the banned person).
    Also, because I mentioned one word, Htrae, in comment #197 when I was asked “What planet do you live on,…”, I now have a comic book fetish? A continuation of the insults.

    You are DEAD wrong Chris. Science is finding that those with ‘compromised immune systems’ suffer in greater quantity, and far more devastating conditions when immunized, as it’s been shown that vaccines cause inflammation, and to much inflammation can kill. Please take your nose out of your comic books Chris, and keep YOURSELF up to date on the scientific references, just as we do for ourselves.

    Because you said I was wrong I asked you to provide the scientific references. I think I have sufficiently demonstrated on this thread that I know how to use PubMed. And still, if you make a claim, like you did in that paragraph, you are expected to back up that claim wih verifiable references.
    Again the following is the lamest excuse to not provide asked for evidence for a claim (from comment 267):

    Don’t write me for proof. Google it, and you’ll easily find scientists who continue to question the harmful effects many of the materials in vaccines can have on individuals with compromised health.

  265. nasik says:

    You get what you give Chris. Lame is thinking that anyone reads your lengthy scrolls of citations from pubmed….page after page after page…. why have you never strayed? Are you afraid to branch out to other studies? But I imagine you have no life.
    Back peddling Chris? An even lamer excuse for not providing evidence to back up YOUR claims, is to ‘claim’ that the request came from trolls.
    Here is where you’re way off the deep end… expecting posters to give citations of evidence for statements such as THIS….’sometimes you have to make a common sense decision without the luxury of waiting years for the forensic science to determine an irrefutable conclusion;.Talk about ‘burp and fart!’ Bizzarro world!!!
    Ugh! You really think I need to prove that vaccines cause inflammation? It’s all over the medical community. Please use your logical brain and THINK for yourself. You really do keep your head buried in htrae.
    Shall I tally your insults to me?
    Lastly please please please understand what you read. The latin was in reference to fallacies. You would have known that had you taken the time to comprehend what you read.

  266. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, could you please start acting like an adult for once?

  267. Chris says:

    Oh, so Dingo used a “Latin” phrase in reference to fallacies. Because the only word I have seen used in reference for “fallacies” was “Nirvana.” By the way, that is a Sanskrit word, not Latin. Oh, I am glad we got that straightened out.
    Nasik: “You really think I need to prove that vaccines cause inflammation? It’s all over the medical community. Please use your logical brain and THINK for yourself. You really do keep your head buried in htrae.”
    Even reworded it is a lame excuse. You made a claim that vaccines cause inflammation that is seemingly more dangerous than the inflammation caused by the diseases, therefore you must provide the literature that is apparently “over the medical community.”
    The issue is relative risk. You cannot say the vaccine causes inflammation without comparing i to the effects of the actual disease. Throughout this entire thread you have made claims that the vaccine is dangerous, and have refused to provide the evidence that is more dangerous than the disease. Insults are not a valid form of evidence.

  268. Gray Falcon says:

    I think we also mentioned the ad hominem fallacy, but seeing is that’s the actual name of the fallacy, it’s hardly an act of pretense.

  269. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again, why should anyone listen to a petulant child like you?
    Also, everything you have posted here has either been a lie or an insult, and still have not posted any evidence to back up your so-called assertions, so why should anyone believe anything you say when you act like a spoiled little brat?
    And please, don’t pretend to hoist your issues onto other posters here.

  270. nasik says:

    Petulant child and spoiled brat, like when I said this site was managed by 2 yr. olds novalox? I would never hoist more issues onto you. Heaven forbid, we can see this site has plenty of issues already. Your biggest is that you try to look like such biology, medical, science and epidemiology experts, but half your members have severe comprehension troubles.
    Case in point, will someone please explain to Chris, that most of the philosophical logical fallacies used in debate are in Latin. And to GF, that the act of pretense is using them without knowing what they really mean.

  271. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik: If you’re going to accuse us of something, provide evidence backing up your accusations. So far, all you’ve done is make claims about biology, and act upset when we demand you provide evidence for your claims.

  272. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Again with the insults? Yawn, you are getting so predictable.
    At least you admit that you cannot bring anything to the table besides base insults as seen above and even then, only insults that a little petulant brat can bring up.
    So again, little child, try to back up your assertions with actual evidence. But if you are going to keep putting up insults, well, go ahead. I’ve heard worse from 4 year olds, and your continued use of insults and evasions instead of actual evidence says more about the bankruptcy of your assertions and morality than about us, as well as your tacit admission that vaccines are more safer than the diseases that they help prevent.
    We’re still waiting for your so-called “viewpoint” to be validated, and I suppose we will all be waiting for quite some time, given your infantile behavior here.

  273. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Also, considering that most of the regular posters here have degrees in science-based fields, we can distinguish bad science from good.
    So, you also owe the posters here an apology for your behavior here.

  274. Chris says:

    Nasik: “Case in point, will someone please explain to Chris, that most of the philosophical logical fallacies used in debate are in Latin”
    But that does not change the fact that “Nirvana” is Sanskrit, especially since it is a Hindu concept from India. Though I am glad to see that you are finally capitalizing the proper noun indicating a language.

  275. nasik says:

    You asked me about latin Chris. I realize what you were speaking of nirvana, which was NOT even being discussed. You asked several times why I mentioned latin. And I’ve glossed over many of your grammatical errors as well.
    “Also considering that most of the regular posters here have degrees in science based fields,”. Now novalox, either they rarely post… like NEVER, from what I’ve been reading, or I KNOW THAT YOU ARE LYING. Only a fool would believe your statement.
    citation needed!

  276. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik, do you have any specific accusations, or are you just hoping someone will actually believe your vague claims? I explained to you, carefully, how science works. “Common sense” is not part of science. Yes, science is about challenging existing ideas, but it is about doing so with evidence. All you’re doing is stamping your feet and demanding respect.

  277. Gray Falcon says:

    FYI: Common sense says that the world is flat. Common sense says you shouldn’t be able to transmit large quantities of data over a long distance through a copper wire. Common sense says that when you get rabies, you die of rabies. In all cases, science proved common sense wrong. The last one, with the development of the rabies vaccine.

  278. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Since you have failed to continually give citations or references for your assertions, which flies in the face of actual science and reality, as well as continue to denigrate and spew insults at the regulars here, we can all rightly assume that all you have done here is lie and troll. Therefore, we can assume that whatever you say has to be incorrect.
    Going from that, since you cannot provide any evidence that the varicella vaccine is more harmful than the disease, we must assume that you admit that the vaccine is much more safer than the actual disease.
    Why should any rational and scientifically trained person believe you at all? And why should any of the regulars here bother with such a troll like you, with your crass behavior?
    Also, why should anyone give you respect when all you act like is a petulant brat? Of course, we are still awaiting your apology for your continuing insults.
    But please, continue your little temper tantrum at the lack of “respect” you get here. I get to show others the tactics and intellectual knots that anti-vax liars like you have to resort to in order to twist reality to their whims.
    And you know the saying, “respect has to be earned, not given” You haven’t earned one iota.

  279. Chris says:

    Wow. Nasik is hilarious. This one is certainly more amusing then the mighty morphing troll who has been banned several times. The one that put my #289 comment into moderation for using her name too often. La bruja, la bruja, la… Sorry, not going there.

  280. dingo199 says:

    The amusement value is certainly pretty high with this one, but it’s intellectual capacity for any meaningful discourse is limited. Shame, that. I like feeding trolls when I’m a bit bored, but this one is hardly worth the effort. It has now resorted to basic insult-hurling, and I’ve yet to see it actually make a clear claim that relies on any evidence.

  281. nasik says:

    GF, I’ve informed you several times now, that I never even inferred that science was common sense based, and the FACT that you still don’t get it shows your total LACK of comprehension skills AND common sense.
    Chris, you’ve been walking all over this site for as long as I’ve been lurking, with TOILET PAPER on your shoe. Your lack of confidence in your own intellect is apparent to all, with your incessant compulsion to include a pub med accumulation in every other post, to compensate for your inferiority complex. Also truly laughable, is your neurosis that everyone who disagrees with you is part of some delphian conglomerate in a conspiracy of ‘banned trolls’. Now that’s funny AND paranoid.
    And novalox has the balls to offer THIS. “Most of the regular posters here have DEGREES in science based fields.” Whatever meager amount of respect anyone had for this site, was surely invalidated by such egregarious ‘FALLACY’.
    Show reasonable doubt regarding the safety of vaccines, and that your site is run by unreasonable and imprudent LIARS.
    “MOST of the regular posters here have DEGREES in science based fields”
    citation required- you’ve made a claim, however outrageous- please back it up with your irrefutable evidence. har d har!
    MY WORK HERE IS DONE!

  282. Gray Falcon says:

    nasik@176:This is the essence of LOGIC; the SCIENCE of thought, course of thought, good sense, sound judgement, train of thought, rational, deduction, argumentation, syllogistics, and COMMON SENSE.
    nasik@225: No time to indulge in forensic science, taking years to experiment, weighing pros and cons. Often one needs to rely on good old fashioned common sense.
    nasik@307: GF, I’ve informed you several times now, that I never even inferred that science was common sense based, and the FACT that you still don’t get it shows your total LACK of comprehension skills AND common sense.
    nasik, are you aware I can simply scroll up are read your previous posts? And no, don’t say that I “misquoted” you, either. You pretty much declared “logic and common sense” to be superior to experiment study.
    And all that talk about fallacies? That’s what logic really is. It’s not about thinking stuff up and saying “that sounds logical,” as you seem to believe.
    By the way, if your problem with the use of the term “ad hominem” was that we were misusing it, why did you complain about us using a Latin phrase? Don’t change your story and expect us to follow along.

  283. Lawrence says:

    @nasik – good for you….your ability to add CAPITALIZATION to your posts is certainly second to none.
    Given that you are the one of the few persons to have provided no actual citations or evidence to back up your screeds, I find your overall postion to be just this side of hilarious (if it wasn’t so sad).

  284. Gray Falcon says:

    By the way, nasik, let me repeat this to you: Do you know how scientific principles get overturned? Not by common sense. Not by yelling. Not by pointing out that someone reads comics. By actual physical evidence. The idea of vaccine safety hasn’t been accepted without question, at the very beginning, there were significant safety concerns. It was the evidence that people who received the weakened diseases (how the initial smallpox vaccine worked) fared better than those who got the real deal that led to the acceptance of vaccines, not some corporate propaganda. Most of the pharmaceutical companies didn’t exist, or had their money in other, more “natural” (mostly alcoholic) remedies.

  285. novalox says:

    @nasik
    Ahh, is the little one throwing another temper tantrum because he/she/it isn’t getting his/her way? Tough beans, child. You haven’t proven anything, except that you have no actual facts, science, or reality on your side.
    Thanks for admitting that the regular posters here are more educated than you can ever hope to be, and that you owe all of the posters here an apology from your insults and libel.
    Also, thanks for admitting that I have broken you and you are reduced to pure gibberish.
    At least your infantile insults are humorous, and another thing to point out to people to see the idiocy of the anti-vax side. I think your stupidity that you have displayed here is good for a few cheap laughs, but at least I can use it to educate people on the ignorance of the anti-vax side.

  286. Erin says:

    I have read a lot of these comments and was wondering why they all say the MOM’S choice. How about it’s the PARENTS choice. In most cases there should be TWO people making the decision. What ever happened to the father’s choice? Does he not get one?!?

  287. John says:

    Well said Nasik!

  288. Gray Falcon says:

    John- That might actually have been convincing if you mentioned what was well said in the first place.

  289. novalox says:

    @john
    So, will you be able to answer the questions asked by Chris and the other regulars here to nasik, who continually failed to answer them and responded with insults, ad hominems, and libel?

  290. Ben says:

    Gray Falcon,
    You cited one person who died of chickenpox. The boy featured in the article is another. A few people who get chickenpox have died of it. Agreed. You didn’t answer the question about how the vaccine damaged immune compromised children, and the evidence that it never did the same thing, whatever it is, to healthy children. And again, many prefer to have their children get it as children when it is usually (not always, but nearly always) mild and get what is nearly always permanent immunity, than to vaccinate them and let them grow up to possibly get chickenpox as adults when it can be much more dangerous. All children got it before 1995, and no one thought twice about it. My children got it, and I wasn’t afraid for one minute that they would die of it. And they didn’t. They had spots for sevreral weeks and then got well. Fever for one day at the beginning. Itchy spots. No flesh eating bacteria, they got completely well. Typical cases.

  291. Gray Falcon says:

    Ben, do you have evidence that the vaccine damaged immune compromised children in the first place?
    Also, if someone stabbed one of your children to death, would it matter? After all, he’s probably met hundreds of people, and he hasn’t killed any of them.

  292. Lawrence says:

    @Ben – and please provide proof that the chicken pox vaccine does not provide life-long immunity…

  293. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, if the vaccine has harm immune compromised children (it has happened before), the simple solution is simply not to give the vaccine to such people. Of course, said children are likely to suffer worst from chickenpox, so communal immunity is still required.

  294. Ben says:

    It was Chris who said that getting the vaccine could damage immune compromised children. I’m still asking how it would do that, and why you are certain that it is impossible that the same thing happen to a healthy child who gets the vaccination. Lawrence, it is generally thought that the vaccine immunity won’t last into adulthood: it is thought that no vaccine gives life-long protection (unlike many of the diseases), do you have proof that it gives life-long immunity? On what is this proof based? Not a simple solution, Gray Falcon. You haven’t proven that the vaccine could not harm healthy children, you’ve just said that it could harm unhealthy ones. Unhealthy children may be even more susceptible to vaccine damage and disease damage than healthy children, that is true, but damaging the healthy ones in an attempt to protect the unhealthy ones is a procedure that many would disagree with. And Gray, would it matter if my child were one of those who was disabled or worse by the vaccine that at least he didn’t die from the disease? Doesn’t it go back to everyone being free to make the decisions that seem wisest to him? He may be wrong no matter which way he goes, but he also may be right.

  295. Gray Falcon says:

    In that case here’s an immune compromised child can be affected by the vaccine, but not one who isn’t. The first is immune compromised, the second isn’t. Learn what “immune compromised” means before asking questions about it.

  296. novalox says:

    @ben
    [citation needed]

  297. Gray Falcon says:

    Actually, we never claimed that it isn’t possible for the vaccine to harm someone with an uncompromised immune system. Only that it’s much rarer than bad effects from the disease. That we have plenty of research to support.
    Also, if your child was harmed by the vaccine, then yes, that’s bad. But not as bad as ten being killed by the disease. There’s no such thing as an action without risk. You have to accept that.
    Finally, your last statements remind me of the following passage:
    King James Bible
    In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

  298. Gray Falcon says:

    Sorry, last statement was Judges 17:6, as well as Judges 21:25. The context is rather unpleasant.

  299. Chris says:

    Ben: “It was Chris who said that getting the vaccine could damage immune compromised children.”
    I did? Please post the comment number where I said that, with a cut and paste of the quote in context. As I recall I kept asking how could an immune compromised child be injured more by the vaccine than the disease.
    “Unhealthy children may be even more susceptible to vaccine damage and disease damage than healthy children, that is true, but damaging the healthy ones in an attempt to protect the unhealthy ones is a procedure that many would disagree with.”
    And these are the children who would be more injured by getting the full strength wild virus, and need protection by community immunity from others getting the vaccine.
    If you disagree, then please post the PubMed indexed study by reputable qualified researchers that these children would be okay getting the actual disease, even though they would be injured by getting the vaccine. The issue is relative risk: what is the risk of the vaccine versus the disease. Show us those verifiable numbers.
    Oh, and in news this week, the herpes zoster virus that lingers in the body after a chicken pox infection contributes to a higher chance of stroke and cardiovascular disease:
    Neurology. 2014 Jan 2. [Epub ahead of print]
    Herpes zoster as a risk factor for stroke and TIA: A retrospective cohort study in the UK.
    Just another fun thing about getting chicken pox and being a candidate for shingles. Which is more likely with the actual disease than the vaccine. If you have evidence to the contrary, then present the verifiable scientific documentation from a reputable qualified researcher (in other words: not from a computer scientist).

  300. Benjamin says:

    Gray,
    So you’re saying that the parents of a healthy child killed by the vaccine should take comfort in the fact that ten immune compromised children have theoretically been saved from dying from the natural disease by the fact that one healthy child has been taken out of the contagion calculation. The healthy child would not have suffered and died if he hadn’t gotten the vaccine, but the parents should not give that a second thought since they did their civic duty by sacrificing their child.

  301. Gray Falcon says:

    Benjamin, I’m saying that the vaccine is a calculated risk. The odds of a child dying from the vaccine are all but zero, much lower than dying from the disease. There are numerous cases of people choking to death while eating, would it be safer not to feed your children?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10979114
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16518753
    Studies have been done on the deaths reported, they have not confirmed the vaccine as cause of death. Chris has posted a much longer list of studies, you should read them.
    And just so you know, vaccines cost far less than treatment for diseases.

  302. Chris says:

    Benjamin: “The healthy child would not have suffered and died if he hadn’t gotten the vaccine, but the parents should not give that a second thought since they did their civic duty by sacrificing their child.”
    Citation needed that the varicella vaccine causes more injury and death than chicken pox prior to 1995, when nine thousand were hospitalized and a hundred died. Please post the PubMed indexed study by reputable qualified researchers that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease.
    Also tell us your credentials that allows you to decide if a child is “healthy enough” to live after posting a eugenics statement like “healthy child killed by the vaccine should take comfort in the fact that ten immune compromised children have theoretically been saved from dying from the natural disease by the fact that one healthy child has been taken out of the contagion calculation.” Where does this happen, and who are you to judge, Ms. CP?
    (this the same style and sentiment given above before comment #145 by Andrea/Monica/Amy, so Ben must be yet another sock if the former Missouri lawyer who has forgotten how to use logic, citations and paragraphs)

  303. Gray Falcon says:

    Chris: I hadn’t realized until you pointed it out both how strongly similar “Benjamin” is to several previous commenter, and his/her/it’s thinly veiled contempt for the disabled. Did he really just suggest one healthy child’s life was worth more than ten immune compromised children?

  304. Chris says:

    Yes, he/she did. And with absolutely no evidence that the vaccine carries a risk that exceeds that of the disease.

  305. harry says:

    Wow! If that’s what you two took away from 326, you clearly do have severe comprehension problems. His post says nothing close to what you misrepresent. You both should be ashamed for lying about a persons intent only to make yourselves appear intelligent.
    You both fail!

  306. Chris says:

    Hello, harry (or Ms. Parker). Then explain what Ms. Parker was actually trying to say. Because this is what we read:
    1. That deaths from the varicella vaccine is common.
    2. So common that there is one death per ten immune compromised child in this country. Children undergoing cancer treatment are immune compromised due to their treatment. Since there are 13,400 children diagnosed with cancer in the USA each year, Ms. P obviously believes the varicella vaccine is killing about 1340 “healthy” children.
    3. She also gets to define what is “healthy.” Fun.
    4. Those kids who are immune compromised deserve to die.
    It is eugenics, pure and simple.
    Now, what you must do, “harry”, is provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable study that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox. Before 1995 it put about nine thousand in the hospital (which is not cheap!), and killed around a hundred each year in the USA. Plus, the bonus of surviving spending two weeks with painful itchy open sores (pox) is that years later one can get shingles. Which recent research shows an increase of heart issues.
    Now, please put up some real citations.

  307. harry says:

    To Chris regarding Benjamin [not Ms. Parker] at 326 from Harry [again NOT Ms. Parker] at 331???
    Let me see if I can keep it real simple for a cretin like yourself. None of the above you boorish dolt.

  308. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, you know the admins can see your IP address?

  309. Gray Falcon says:

    By the way, I did mention the ten to one ratio, but my exact words were: “Also, if your child was harmed by the vaccine, then yes, that’s bad. But not as bad as ten being killed by the disease.” I never mentioned the child dying from the vaccine, immunodeficiency, or suggested that the ratio was comparable.
    Tell me, “harry”, why does “Benjamin” get a free pass to twist my words like that?

  310. harry says:

    My ip address will say Harry and not Ms. Parker??? And I know admins. can see ips for you and Chris as well. But that doesn’t seem to stop the relentless insolence and deception from your own members.
    It’s not difficult at all to determine what Benjamin referred to, so I can’t believe why someone would purposefully and harshly distort his post into something so mean.

  311. Gray Falcon says:

    So why does he get a free pass to distort what I say, harry? Why aren’t you calling him out? Why does he get to get away with it? The fact that he did so is enough to make Chris’ complaint legitimate.
    And I’m not Chris. The admit will confirm that for you.

  312. novalox says:

    @harry
    Care to review the rules first?
    Comments containing the following elements will be deemed inappropriate and will be removed from the blog:
    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    Seems like you’re breaking a couple of them already.
    Anyways, [citation needed], or we can all assume that you are only here to troll and lie, like all of the other failed anti-vax liars.

  313. Chris says:

    harry and benjamin, why do you think immune compromised kids like those receiving cancer treatment do not deserve protection from chicken pox through community immunity? What real evidence do you have to believe that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox?
    What are you medical credentials to decide if a child is “healthy” enough to deserve to live?

  314. William Jones says:

    Chris,
    The reason is that community immunity requires forcing unwilling patients to be submitted to an unavoidably unsafe medical procedure. This impinges upon their civil rights. Regardless of how safe you think the varicella vaccine is, the thousands of parents who have filed reports of what they believe clearly shows the vaccine’s dangers do not agree with you, do not have to agree with you, and you cannot force them to do so.

  315. Will Jones says:

    Gray,
    And you do not have the right to force anyone to take a calculated risk which involves possible death or disability, however much disagreement there is as to whether the risk is small or large. .

  316. Will Jones says:

    Gray,
    Every parent’s primary duty is to protect his or her own children. If he believes that it is in his own child’s best interest not to get the vaccine(s), then he may not and should not be forced to get them. He has no obligation to risk his own child’s life and health to theoretically protect other people’s children.

  317. Will Jones says:

    VAERS 122210 four year old child gets kidney damage two days after varicella shot. Two weeks later has chickenpox and superinfection, hospitalized for it.
    219497 Four days after var. shot, child becomes unresponsive, has focal seizure, foams at mouth. Hospitalization required.
    175928 8 year old becomes dizzy and confused three days after var. shot, goes into seizures and life-flighted to hospital.
    90120 Twelve year old gets Guillain-Barré syndrome 12 days after var. shot
    107121 one year old gets rash two days after var shot, screams shrilly, vomits, goes into cardiac arrest and dies four days after var shot.
    And many more. These parents and doctors believed the shot caused the reactions: you don’t. Parents should know of this, know how mild chickenpox usually is, and make their choice accordingly.

  318. harry says:

    GF to Chris regarding Benjamin at 329 – “contempt for the disabled. Did he really just suggest a healthy child’s life was worth more than ten immune compromised children?”
    To continue novalox, Chris answered “Yes, he/she did.”
    ‘personal attacks of any kind’
    ‘unsupported accusations of any kind’
    Do you mean ‘those’ such rules novalox? Seems like your members have been breaking them for quite a long time. Or do you feel the rules don’t apply to your own colleagues?
    Thank you Will/iam Jones.

  319. novalox says:

    @william
    [citation needed].
    First of all, do you even know the risk of the actual disease vs the risk of the vaccination? Where is your citation for this?
    Second of all, you do know what VAERS is used for, right? Have you ever read the disclaimer when you first go into VAERS? And also that most of the accounts in VAERS have little to do with vaccinations? Unless you think that vaccinations cause someone to become the Hulk. (actual VAERS entry)
    Finally, did you even read the post up above. A child actually died from chickenpox, and your post seems insensitive to the parents of the child affected.
    @harry
    And calling someone “cretin”, “boor”, and a “dolt” doesn’t count?
    So, [citation needed] within 3 posts, or we can all assume that you are here to troll only and not add to the conversation.
    Also, keep on tone trolling, it says a lot more about you than about the regulars here.

  320. Gray Falcon says:

    Will, my position is not about parents putting their children at risk. It’s about reducing risk, including to one’s own children. The chickenpox vaccine is a far smaller risk than the virus, we have documented of this. If you wish to prove otherwise, you will need evidence.

  321. Chris says:

    Will Jones: “The reason is that community immunity requires forcing unwilling patients to be submitted to an unavoidably unsafe medical procedure.”
    Citation needed. Please post the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the varicella vaccine is “unavoidably unsafe” compared to the nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths due to chicken pox before 1995.
    Also, if you don’t want to be confused with a former Missouri lawyer who has been banned here several times, do not rely on quoting unverified VAERS entries.

  322. harry says:

    While I don’t usually introduce myself by delivering insults to forum members, I have to say that you and your members here, incite such provocation, and that Chris certainly warranted such a response.
    While I was assertive at 331, showing my disagreement and ‘disapproval’ to the ‘personal attack and unsupported accusation’ of Benjamin, I was neither vulgar, or overly insulting, until Chris continued with their contrived disparagement.
    So to what shall my citation refer to? That I believed Chris to be a cretin? That I believed Chris to be boorish? Or that I believed Chris to be a dolt?
    The sheer arrogance of you and your ‘regulars’ here says plenty novalox.

  323. novalox says:

    @harry
    Since when is asking for citations for your assertions considered insulting? You stil owe an apology to Chris for your insults.
    Also, strike 1.

  324. B. Jones says:

    The risk of the natural disease is very small. Everyone used to get it as children and recover just fine. A minority of people used to later get shingles from the latent virus in old age, and shingles can range from mild to severe. I don’t have to show anything about relative risk. If I don’t want to get the vaccine for my children, I don’t have to and shouldn’t have to. One hundred out of millions used to die from it. OK. I and my children got it and recovered from it just fine, so I am not afraid of it. My life experience, my belief, my decision. You devote yourselves to attempting to show that apparent reactions were probably coincidental, and not related to the vaccine at all. Fine. Get the vaccine. You still can’t force anyone else to get it.

  325. novalox says:

    @b. jones
    You do know the topic of the post refers to ab individual who got chickenpox and died from the disease?
    Also, I remember a patient at the hospital where I volunteer at who had chickenpox, suffered terribly from it, and suffered significant scarring around his body. Ask the patient or his family what would he have preferred, the vaccination or the actual disease.
    So, my anecdote beats yours any day.

  326. harry says:

    Then you, Chris and numerous other ‘regulars’ definitely owe Benjamin and mass posters
    apologies for the abuse you unjustly dole out daily.
    Your fumble! My interception!

  327. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, you mean demanding support for unfounded accusations, or calling people out on the utter selfishness?

  328. Chris says:

    Mr. Jones: “The risk of the natural disease is very small. Everyone used to get it as children and recover just fine.”
    Why are you ignoring the nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths due to chicken pox before 1995? What are your medical credentials do you have to determine those people deserved that fate?
    And, no you don’t have to have your children get a varicella vaccine. Just make sure to comply with exemption rules and keep them away from the school if there is an outbreak, which could last a couple of months. Or start your own school for those who don’t care about public health and other people.
    Also, if you don’t want to be confused with a former Missouri lawyer who has been banned here several times, you will stop changing your name and email address. The automatically generated avatar pattern changes with the email address.
    Now to repeat, you failed have once to support your claim. You have two more tries… which I predict you will also fail, and just come back to repeat the same claims with yet another sock puppet:
    Will Jones: “The reason is that community immunity requires forcing unwilling patients to be submitted to an unavoidably unsafe medical procedure.”
    Citation needed. Please post the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the varicella vaccine is “unavoidably unsafe” compared to the nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths due to chicken pox before 1995.

  329. novalox says:

    @harry
    Strike 2.
    Also, you ran into your end zone again for another safety?

  330. W. Jones says:

    But you guys say that if a child gets a rash and dies two days after the shot, it wasn’t from the shot. If she goes into kidney failure the day after the shot, it wasn’t the shot. If he becomes paralyzed by Guillain-Barré syndrome the day after, it wasn’t the shot, because in real life, vaccines never hurt anybody. I believe otherwise. It is completely unimportant to my decision on whether to get the vaccine that a few people have died from chickenpox. I have had it, my children have had it, for us it wasn’t dangerous and so I”m not afraid of it. And that’s my right. I don’t think any children have been barred from public school for two months when there was a chickenpox outbreak, but I would rather have them barred than take what I believe to be the considerable risk of the vaccine.

  331. Gray Falcon says:

    Jones, if someone suddenly died of a heart attack the day after they have an argument with you, why should you not be arrested and executed for cursing him with the evil eye?

  332. novalox says:

    @w. jones
    Then, provide actual citations for your assertions. Because what you are saying flies in the face of actual medicine and biology.

  333. Ida Marie says:

    What a joke. Nasty, negative people. This negativity must be an embarrassment to the sites creators. Nobody is going to listen to the regular posters here, they only make people run in the opposite direction. It actually makes you feel slimy just visiting this site. Really bad.

  334. Gray Falcon says:

    Ida- Truth is unpleasant, isn’t it?

  335. Chris says:

    Now to repeat, you failed have twice to support your claim. You have two more tries… which I predict you will also fail, and just come back to repeat the same claims with yet another sock puppet:
    Will Jones: “The reason is that community immunity requires forcing unwilling patients to be submitted to an unavoidably unsafe medical procedure.”
    Citation needed. Please post the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the varicella vaccine is “unavoidably unsafe” compared to the nine thousand hospitalizations and one hundred deaths due to chicken pox before 1995.
    Also, Mr. Jones if you do not want to be confused with a former Missouri lawyer who has been banned from this site several times, you would not repeat the same accusations as Amy in Comment #157. Also, you now just changed your name and username again. Were you blocked again?
    Ida Marie: “What a joke. Nasty, negative people.”
    Yes, it is sad that someone feels the need to change their name and username to post the same accusations, including variations of certain children deserve to die like: “The healthy child would not have suffered and died if he hadn’t gotten the vaccine, but the parents should not give that a second thought since they did their civic duty by sacrificing their child.”

  336. Gray Falcon says:

    Or is Ida talking about their fondness for twisting others’ words? We never said that vaccines never cause harm, only that one needs to confirm reports to determine whether the vaccine. Suspicion alone isn’t evidence.

  337. novalox says:

    @ida
    Well, if actual scientific truth and reality aren’t your thing, and pseudoscience and discredited anti-vax lies is what you turn to…, then don’t let the door hit your butt on the way out.

  338. novalox says:

    @ida
    Also, your tone trolling is weak. So if you have anything of substance to say, say it, instead of whining about hurt feelings.
    We want actual evidence, not unsubstantiated insults or hearsay.

  339. Ida Marie says:

    You should start by taking some responsibility for your own actions. Good luck on spreading your word, it ain’t going to happen his way. I’m not sticking around for this negative garbage.

  340. Gray Falcon says:

    Ida: Why are you not calling out the anti-vaccine folks for their actions? Your blatant insincerity is probably why almost no-one’s left in your fold.

  341. Ida Marie says:

    Gray Falcon, I have never been more sincere when I say this, you and your friends are the most ugly, nasty people I have ever been around. You really need to be objective, dig deep and ask yourself if you are a good person. I don’t think you will like what you find. Treat those as you would treat yourself right?

  342. Chris says:

    Ida Marie: “Gray Falcon, I have never been more sincere when I say this, you and your friends are the most ugly, nasty people I have ever been around”
    So you prefer folks who respond when asked to provide citations with: “Let me see if I can keep it real simple for a cretin like yourself. None of the above you boorish dolt.” Good to know.

  343. novalox says:

    @ida
    Treat those as you would treat yourself right?
    Interesting that you and your ilk don’t follow this rule, eh? Considering the tone trolling and the comments of yours, you seem like a hypocrite. Of course, calling us “ugly, nasty” people just because we are asking for evidence is also pretty laughable.
    How about this. Respect has to be earned, not given, You certainly haven’t earned any,

  344. Ida Marie says:

    Chris, lie to yourself all you want. You are perfectly capable if asking for “citations” and what ever else you need while still keeping it friendly.
    novalox, I call it like I see it. The fact is you are ugly, if you don’t think so, why don’t you take a poll with your friends and family. Would they be embarrassed if they knew how you went on?

  345. Gray Falcon says:

    Ida, it’s a simple question. Why aren’t you saying anything to the anti-vaccine folks. They have no problems lying about what we say or making unreasonable demands. Why do they get a free pass?

  346. novalox says:

    @ida
    Yawn, another insult and tone trolling, how utterly droll. And considering your comments before, about treating others like you would treat yourself, your hypocrisy is utterly amazing.
    And the fact is, my family is proud of me, especially my parents and grandparents, who had to suffer and feared VPDs such as measles, smallpox, and polio, for taking anti-vaxxers to task for their behaviors, such as you. Rather, I’m embarrassed for you, who seems to think that insults and trolling are appropriate substitutions for science and critical thought.
    So if you want to keep on tone trolling, go ahead, because it speaks volumes about your lack of reality and science for your position.

  347. Chris says:

    Ida Marie: “Chris, lie to yourself all you want.”
    Please post the comment number and quote what lie I have used. Thank you.

  348. Ida Marie says:

    Chris, about being a good person and treating people well. Keep lying to yourself.
    novalox, I highly doubt your family is proud of you. I would be very surprised if they approve of your bad behavior.
    Gray Falcon, I don’t know if the “anti-vaccine” folks are lying, that isn’t the point. It’s about your treatment of them. Again, keep blaming others for they way you act and you’ll never get anywhere.

  349. Chris says:

    Ida Marie: “Chris, about being a good person and treating people well. Keep lying to yourself.”
    How have I mistreated Mr. Jones and his friends harry and Benjamin. Please post the comment number and direct quote of me not treating them well. Is asking for citations bad? Is asking them for their credentials for judging if a child is healthy and deserves to live bad?
    Explain clearly how my behavior is objectionable to theirs.

  350. Lawrence says:

    I am reminded of a common Internet Meme:
    Dozens of children die every year of vaccine preventable diseases & the anti-vax community doesn’t bat an eye…..one parent claims that their child suffered a vaccine reaction and the anti-vax community loses its mind.
    Hypocrites.

  351. Gray Falcon says:

    Ida, at best, these are people who possess knowledge that could potentially save hundreds of lives, and are deliberately withholding for no reason at all. If anything, I’m being far too kind to them.

  352. harry says:

    Immune system – use it or lose it! Slam dunk!
    There’s a penalty on your play novalox. Your admin. should have banned you many times, but decided worse punishment would be to make you suffer by reading through all your own lame, boring comments. badum bum.!
    The sickest, most heinous act committed on this site over and over, is the monstrous narcissism that you MOCK individuals injured or killed by vaccines, as you shamelessly exploit those deficient of the ability to fight off naturally occurring disease, for your own selfish agenda.
    This, while demanding that people offer up their children in sacrifice, injecting them with disease which they may never get otherwise, for the benefit of you and your own families
    health.
    In a nefarious paradox, when an innocent individual does die or become injured in an attempt to add to your herd immunity by becoming vaccinated, you then lack the fortitude to admit that an individual may have in fact been injured by a reaction to vaccine.
    This site is full of kids who are playing games with people’s lives. However they’ll never need their ‘nuttie buddies’ in their love of ‘ball’ games, because clearly they lack the kahunees to concede when they’re wrong, or to show proper respect for those who ARE injured or killed by vaccine.
    To Chris… 329 and 330 were misconstrued and cavalier.
    Touchdown and touche novalox!

  353. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, vaccines work by way of the immune system. If you don’t even know that, why are you talking about vaccination?
    Where have we mocked those harmed by vaccines? I need an exact quote.
    Finally, we are not talking about sacrifice, we are talking about weighed risks. It would be insanely foolish not to feed one’s children for fear of them choking to death. This is a similar issue, albeit with smaller ratios.

  354. Chris says:

    harry: “This, while demanding that people offer up their children in sacrifice, injecting them with disease which they may never get otherwise, for the benefit of you and your own families health.”
    How is vaccination “injecting them with disease”? The reason they have a low probability of getting chicken pox is because most kids are now vaccinated for it. Though there are still outbreaks because parents like you tend to gather together. In the 1990s almost all kids still got chicken pox, and it was not fun.
    All of my kids had chicken pox the year before the vaccine was available. The elementary school that my oldest was a kindergartener had a student end up in the hospital. My six month old baby ended up with chicken pox, and was miserable. The oldest suffered immensely because he was so sick he wet his bed, something he had done since being potty trained as a toddler. The urine irritated the pox.
    This is why I think people who want to see kids get chicken pox are sadists.
    So without providing us any evidence, you are promoting the idea that the vaccine is dangerous, and that those who have immune disorders should not be protected from chicken pox through community immunity.
    To top if off you tell us: “you MOCK individuals injured or killed by vaccines,”… Yet you have totally dismissed the story at the top of this page. Especially with this comment from “Andrea”:

    I feel like there is something missing. I fully acknowledge that I very well may be wrong in this thought, but my gut instinct tells me something else may have contributed to his death. Maybe simply that he already had pneumonia and the barrage of CP and pneumonia was too much for his tiny body to handle?

    Like his fate is okay because he might have some kind of disorder to make chicken pox not so mild. That is horrible.
    The fact that you, harry, and your friends refuse to provide citations that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox is a mockery to all of those injured or killed by the disease. You are mocking the nine thousand who needed hospital care and the one hundred who died from chicken pox each year in the USA before 1995.
    Now, harry, Ida Marie and the rest of the sock puppets provide us some real evidence. Do not mention a self-selected unverified database, but provide us the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox. No more excuses, and no more telling us why we are terrible people.

  355. harry says:

    Stop being arrogant, obnoxious people then. We don’t like having to ‘tone troll’ what could otherwise be a decent site for vaccine debate. You terrible people ruin it even for your own members, by your self righteous, prejudicial immaturity.
    Also, we never denied that some people don’t have the strong natural immunity to fight off disease. So we MOCK no one. However, you have refused to accept many times, that vaccine can cause injury or death in some people. There’s a huge difference between this site, and those who protest mandatory vaccines, but you seem to want to dodge this relevant distinction.

  356. Chris says:

    harry: “Stop being arrogant, obnoxious people then.”
    Hmmm, you accused us of mocking those injured and killed by vaccine. It is my opinion that is you being obnoxious.
    “So we MOCK no one.” Uh, huh. So Andrea was being a just wonderful person by implying that the little boy who died from chicken pox was not healthy, so what happened was okay dokay? And Benjamin was just being a lovely person with this accusation: “So you’re saying that the parents of a healthy child killed by the vaccine should take comfort in the fact that ten immune compromised children have theoretically been saved from dying from the natural disease by the fact that one healthy child has been taken out of the contagion calculation.” But he refused to provide that the varicella vaccine kills at a rate of one in ten of the number of immune compromised kids because they have cancer.
    In the early 1990s chicken pox put nine thousand in the hospital, and killed hundred per year in the USA. I know from personal experience that it is painful and torturous for kids to get dozens of itchy sores, especially for a baby.
    Why do you want us to let this happen again? Why should we even attempt to be civil to you when you are advocating a painful and possibly fatal disease on children?

  357. Chris says:

    harry: “Also, we never denied that some people don’t have the strong natural immunity to fight off disease.”
    Then how would you protect them from chicken pox? Give us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from cancer. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.
    I await your constructive advice on protecting the vulnerable.

  358. novalox says:

    @harry
    Strike 3.
    Since you have failed to provide any actual answers to the questions posed of you, we can all assume that you admit that your position is without merit and that you agree that the varicella vaccine is much more safer than the the actual disease.
    Also, thanks for admitting that you lose, since you have continually failed to answer the questions.
    @ida
    Why should I care what a obvious anti-vax troll and liar thinks of me? My family is proud of me, and your derision makes me proud, since you cannot obviously defend your position and have to resort to childish lies and insults.
    Please, keep trying with your insults, because it says a lot more about your character than about me.

  359. Chris says:

    harry, Benjamin, Mr. Jones, Ida Marie, Andrea, Amy, Monica, Cindy and others who want kids to get chicken pox, please answer the following questions with verifiable data (not VAERS):
    Give us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from chicken pox.. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.
    Thank you in advance.

  360. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – still surprised that anti-vaccine individuals expect us to take all of their stories at face-value, without a shred of supporting evidence…..and when we ask them to back up these “stories” it is considered “mean.”

  361. Gray Falcon says:

    Will Jones :
    Gray,
    And you do not have the right to force anyone to take a calculated risk which involves possible death or disability, however much disagreement there is as to whether the risk is small or large. .

    What if the other alternative is certain death? Not what’s at stake here, I admit, but his stance isn’t as solid as he thinks.

    Will Jones :
    Gray,
    Every parent’s primary duty is to protect his or her own children. If he believes that it is in his own child’s best interest not to get the vaccine(s), then he may not and should not be forced to get them. He has no obligation to risk his own child’s life and health to theoretically protect other people’s children.

    Sorry this is late, but this shows exactly how twisted their mindset it. We mentioned the immune compromised out of hopes that they would see how horrifically selfish their acts were. For them, being horrifically selfish is a good thing.

  362. Gray Falcon says:

    Correction: Our intention was to show that they were putting not just their own children at risk, but others as well. We did not intend it as a demand they sacrifice their children. I have no patience for those who twist our words like that.

    Karen Kraus :
    Every time someone recovers from a natural disease, it makes their immune system work better in the future, trains it, so to speak. Chickenpox is an easy challenge for most children, one which I welcomed. Those who feel differently are certainly welcome to do as they like.

    Here is an example, way back in comment #100, of the sheer ignorance at work here. The very first sentence is the basic principle under which vaccines function, the second completely ignores the article it was posted to.

  363. harry says:

    Chris, perhaps a concept which you feel someone ‘implied’, is YOUR wrongly misinterpreted perception. Because neither Benjamin or Andrea said what you claim.
    Most healthy individuals, with strong natural immune systems, [genes, proper nutrition] are able to get through chicken pox without long term incident. Just like what you so often state of your opposition, blaming that a vaccine harmed individual had a preexisting condition, which caused the injury, the same can be said for someone who lacks enough protection to succeed through a bout of chicken pox.
    Okey dokey and “FUN” are your additives Chris. None of us have made light regarding anyone dying. The huge difference is that we admit some unhealthy children with undiagnosed preexisting medical conditions may die of any disease. But you will not even CONSIDER that a vaccine may have been involved in severe harm to a healthy child. If you want to play the undiagnosed preexisting condition card, it works both ways.
    So NO! Andrea, Benjamin, myself and many others, do NOT mock those injured by disease. However it clearly MOCKS those who have lost loved ones due to vaccine injury, when your group continually attempts to discredit ‘their’ accounts of the injuries, which is easily read on here in countless comments.
    I think it behooves us to allow our natural immunity to evolve, and to disallow as many harmful toxic ingredients in our bodies as possible. This method is even better proven for the long term health of our children then yours.
    And Chris, thank ‘you’ in advance for your gracious and nonpartisan deliberation.

  364. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, our demands for proper investigation is not mocking anyone. Would you prefer a world where a parent’s accusation alone was enough for a conviction?

  365. Chris says:

    harry, those were direct quotes. Now you must provide the comment number and quote of this: “However it clearly MOCKS those who have lost loved ones due to vaccine injury,”
    “Most healthy individuals, with strong natural immune systems, [genes, proper nutrition] are able to get through chicken pox without long term incident.”
    Except for the nine thousand that required hospital care and the hundred that died from chicken pox in the USA each year before 1995. You repeating the claim the “Most healthy individuals” with certain “genes, proper nutrition” are okay dokay, is mocking the little boy whose picture is on the top of this page and those who suffered greatly from the disease (like two of my kids). And do not forget those who end up with shingles several years after having chicken pox.
    New questions, you have three tries to answer them to prove you are not a fan of eugenics:
    Give us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from chicken pox.. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.

  366. novalox says:

    @harry
    Again, thanks for admitting that the varicella vaccine is much safer than the actual disease, since you keep failing to provide evidence for your so-called “assertions”

  367. harry says:

    Tell you what I’m NOT a big fan of Chris, … cowards who play games instead of admitting their own fallibility.

  368. Gray Falcon says:

    Game? Why are you calling this a game? If you read our comments, you’d realize we aren’t outright dismissing claims of vaccine damage, or claiming the vaccine is incapable of harm. We are doing what any scientist is supposed to do: searching for evidence. Human lives are at stake, we cannot afford to act without information.

  369. harry says:

    Chris thinks saying ‘most healthy individuals with proper nutrition, etc., can ward off a bout of chicken pox” is mocking. No Chris! It’s not mocking… It’s a fact… You can NOT prove it otherwise. You clearly lack the intellect to understand what you’ve read, and are to biased to not interpret your very judgemental ideations into the poster’s comments.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      I am a pediatric infectious disease physician and have specific training and knowledge in vaccines. I am very much pro-vaccine. With that as a background, it is in fact true that most healthy individuals will not die from chicken pox–data from the CDC is as follows:
      “In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got chickenpox, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized (range, 8,000 to 18,000), and 100 to 150 died each year.” by that math, there are indeed millions who are not hospitalized and who don’t die.
      However, decisions about whom to vaccinate, which vaccines to produce, which vaccines to require for school entry, etc. are not made on an individual basis. They are made on a population/public health basis–the greatest good for the greatest number sort of argument.
      Using this as a starting point, the decision was made to roll out the varicella vaccine to prevent these sequelae and the human and economic damage they caused _on a population level_. It cost millions and millions of dollars to the healthcare industry and economy overall in terms of doctor’s visits for those 4 million cases, and lost school and work time for those and especially for the 13,000 hospitalizations. It also caused significant illness–yes kids mostly recover but they are often fairly sick and uncomfortable when they are ill with chicken pox and, as above, 13,000 hospitalizations is a significant number. For anyone who has had an ill child or a hospitalized child, these are not insignificant things. Finally, obviously, if we have a vaccine that can prevent 100-150 deaths that are otherwise needless, well, this was just one more reason to vaccinate the at-risk population. And those bad outcomes were predominantly in healthy individuals according to all the pre-vaccine surveillance data–not in some particularly susceptible sub-population
      The CDC has ongoing surveillance (http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/monitoring-varicella.html) that proves conclusively that the vaccine has had a huge impact decreasing morbidity and mortality from varicella. This same surveillance has shown that the vaccine is incredibly safe (see above link again).
      I am all for using individual story and narrative to aid the pro-vaccine side, just as the anti-vaccine side uses tales of kids who have been supposedly damaged by vaccines, but ultimately it hinges on the data and the data is at a population level. There will always be individuals who have weird vaccine reactions. There will always be individuals who don’t respond to the vaccine at all. And there will always be individuals who are more or less severely affected by the disease. But on the whole, we have conclusive pathophysiologic knowledge of how the disease harms, how vaccines protect, and epidemiologic data showing by more than just temporal association that the vaccine does work.
      On the anti-vaccine side, you all never seem to have any conclusive pathophysiologic argument _how_ what you are arguing happens, happens–there may be a time association in individual anecdotes or VAERS but that is not enough. To anyone who truly wants to understand and help people rather than just berate, accuse, or yell because they are hurt or angry, we need more. And hurt and anger and fear and sorrow are reasonable emotions to feel if you believe your child has been harmed by a vaccine but then move past that and use your intellect.
      Vaccine decisions are not made on emotion and association and individual anecdote. They are made on data and so far all the data and all the real science is on one side–the pro-vaccine side. You want to argue against vaccines? Find some data and then we can talk like reasonable intelligent people. Until then, I’m sorry for your pain and loss, but it’s just not doing anybody any good.

  370. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, if it’s a fact, then you should have no problem providing evidence of that fact. Otherwise, you are either:
    1) Providing incorrect medical information
    2) Deliberately withholding information that could save lives
    Both of which are vastly worse than mockery.
    And no, saying that it’s “logical” or “obvious” isn’t enough. It was once thought “obvious and logical” one couldn’t build a vehicle that traveled at over ten miles an hour without bringing serious harm to the occupants.

  371. Johnny says:

    Chris thinks if you don’t have a citation for something then it isn’t true. You MUST have a citation or else. That’s not the way the real word works.

  372. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Chris thinks if you don’t have a citation for something then it isn’t true. You MUST have a citation or else. That’s not the way the real word works.

    Johnny, in the real world, you can’t simply declare something true and have everyone believe it. We need evidence. If you don’t have any, why are you wasting your time yelling at us? Why aren’t you researching it? How can you justify your indolence?

  373. Johnny says:

    So dramatic Gray, why don’t you tone it down a bit.
    What color is my hair Gray?
    I say it is light brown, some say it is blonde. What is the truth?

  374. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    So dramatic Gray, why don’t you tone it down a bit.

    A human child died. A human life was lost. I will not make light of that. Ever.

  375. Chris says:

    Johnny, please tell us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from chicken pox.. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.

  376. Johnny says:

    Gray, did I make light of it? No, I didn’t it.

  377. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Gray, did I make light of it? No, I didn’t it.

    Your last comment:

    Johnny :
    So dramatic Gray, why don’t you tone it down a bit.
    What color is my hair Gray?
    I say it is light brown, some say it is blonde. What is the truth?

    . Issues of medicine are far more complex than hair color. Yes, you made light of it. And you lied about it. You disgust me.

  378. Johnny says:

    Saul,
    Here is the issue…. “However, decisions about whom to vaccinate, which vaccines to produce, which vaccines to require for school entry, etc. are not made on an individual basis. They are made on a population/public health basis–the greatest good for the greatest number sort of argument.”
    The decision should be made individually and to a persons specific genetic make up. Pre testing needs to be done to determine the possible effects a vaccine may or may not have on any particular person. Vaccine’s should not be one size fits all.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      Johnny: “The decision should be made individually and to a persons specific genetic make up. Pre testing needs to be done to determine the possible effects a vaccine may or may not have on any particular person. Vaccine’s should not be one size fits all.”
      And maybe in the future they will be, like all medical therapy. In-office or send-out sequencing/genomics will reveal everybody’s possible response to a vaccine or to any therapy or intervention. And the CDC and others are doing research on this very issue (https://www.bcm.edu/news/molecular-and-human-genetics/genomic-analysis-refines-flu-shot-response) but the science isn’t there yet.
      So rather than argue with no evidence that nobody should get vaccinated because all vaccines are unsafe, the anti-vaccine movement should be funding research like the study above, or others, to try to understand better the individualized aspects of vaccinology. And while I may not disagree with the decision, people _can_ choose not to vaccinate their children. They are putting them and those around them at incredible risk and so I feel it is a highly irresponsible decision (and I tell my patients that), but that is your right.

  379. harry says:

    I indulged your stated credentials until ‘supposedly damaged’. I for one don’t argue against vaccine. I argue about my right to choose and mandated vaccine.
    You have shown your true colors above, by also not admitting that vaccines may harm some individuals. THIS is also the dogma we disagree with.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      Harry, I never hid my “true colors” and indeed, as Gray Falcon stated, I did acknowledge that there will always be the odd case of a bizarre vaccine reaction–I have seen them myself. They are not the norm and they should not dictate decision-making over science and data and studies, until such time that we have truly individualized medicine that can back the claims up. And I stand by my use of “supposed” because there has been no conclusive evidence that the death or high morbidity narratives from the anti-vaccine side are truly causally linked to vaccines. I don’t doubt that there are patients who are harmed by something, but I have yet to see conclusive data that this “something” is vaccines. Show me some and maybe you can change my mind…
      And also, I don’t need you or anyone else to “indulge” my credentials. You want to know if I’m a doctor? google me, look me up in the new york state database of licensed physicians. But if doubting my credentials makes you feel better about yourself and whatever credentials you do or don’t have, then that’s your problem, not mine.

  380. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny, do you have any specific examples of such testing, how it would work? Peer-reviewed papers showing that certain genetic conditions predispose one against vaccination?

  381. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, I read his comment. He also said: “There will always be individuals who have weird vaccine reactions.” Don’t lie about what you read.

  382. Gray Falcon says:

    Saul: When somebody puts those around them at incredible risk, wouldn’t be ethically right to punish them? I’m a little worried about modern concepts of “freedom”. Apparently, people have forgotten that one’s right to swing their fist ends at another person’s face.

  383. Johnny says:

    Saul,
    You say, “They are putting them and those around them at incredible risk and so I feel it is a highly irresponsible decision (and I tell my patients that), but that is your right.”
    It is not irresponsible to choose not to vaccinate. What would be irresponsible is to blindly vaccinate your children without knowing the risks. It is the responsibility of the parent to protect your child from injury. Until vaccine’s are 100 percent safe, it is not irresponsible to say no.
    The future is now. The testing is available and ready to go.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      Johnny, I never said my credentials made me right or wrong. But I do have knowledge and expertise granted by my training that the average person does not have. Take that as you will.
      Also, regarding your claim that the future is now and testing is available to assess individual’s risk of vaccine reaction or vaccine response, I would love to see those studies for FDA-approved testing, because to my knowledge, the sequencing we have and things like 23andMe cannot tell us about this with anything approaching enough detail.
      Additionally, my claim of irresponsibility relates to the risk to others around your child. If a child gets measles before he has been vaccinated (because he was too young) because an older unvaccinated child gave it to him, that would be on the parent of that child. That their action or inaction gave the other child measles is the definition of irresponsible, if our job as citizens and humans is to help take care of each other and function as a healthy society…
      Finally, _no_ treatment is 100% safe. If we lived by the requirement that everything medicine does has to be without risk, we would never give tylenol, motrin, antibiotics, or any medication; never do surgery; never treat cancer; never give birth with medical or surgical assistance… nothing is 100% nor can it be.

  384. Saul Hymes says:

    Gray, I personally do feel that vaccines should be mandated more harshly than they are. However, as it stands right now, the laws allow choice and that is the environment we are working in, so that is the environment it seemed to make sense to discuss this under. If it were up to me, vaccines would be federally mandated with a very limited religious exemption which would require stringent proof. But I don’t make policy and so I am trying to separate my personal views from what is actually implementable in the current socio-political climate…

  385. Johnny says:

    Saul, just because you have “credentials” and wear a white coat does not make you right or wrong in the matter. I have spoken to many Docs, and all with varying opinions.

  386. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny, nothing on this planet is 100 percent safe. Not only are you irresponsible, you are also unreasonable.
    And if you know such testing exists, please show me proof of it. I’m not going to take the word of some guy in the Internet.

  387. Johnny says:

    There’s your true colors Saul….. “If it were up to me, vaccines would be federally mandated with a very limited religious exemption which would require stringent proof.”
    Did you just conveniently forget about those that may be injured by vaccines? Yet, you would mandate them?

  388. novalox says:

    @johnny
    Then please, show us the science that shows that vaccine injuries are more common and serious than the actual disease.
    Because your assertions flies in the face of what is actually known, that vaccine reactions happen far less than the actual disease and its sequelae.

  389. Johnny says:

    Gray, I never said they were or anything else was safe. What I said was UNLESS they are 100% safe it is not irresponsible to choose not to vaccinate your children. If there is a risk, then it is reasonable to choose not to do it.

  390. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    There’s your true colors Saul….. “If it were up to me, vaccines would be federally mandated with a very limited religious exemption which would require stringent proof.”
    Did you just conveniently forget about those that may be injured by vaccines? Yet, you would mandate them?

    People have been injured (rarely) by seat belts. We still mandate them. There is nothing in this world without risk, and if you cannot accept that, then frankly, you shouldn’t have the right to decide anything.

  391. Johnny says:

    novalox….”Then please, show us the science that shows that vaccine injuries are more common and serious than the actual disease.”
    That isn’t the point. If my child is more susceptible to vaccine injury, he shouldn’t be vaccinated. Period.

  392. novalox says:

    @johnny
    You do know that you are falling for the nirvana fallacy, right? That just because something is not 100% safe that it cannot be good.
    So, judging by your comment, does not mean that you won’t drive because there is a small chance that you will get into an accident and die? Or that you refuse to go on the internet because there is a small chance that you will get electrocuted by your computer and get killed.

  393. novalox says:

    @johnny
    So, where is your evidence that would support your view? Because your view flies in the face of actual science.

  394. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Gray, I never said they were or anything else was safe. What I said was UNLESS they are 100% safe it is not irresponsible to choose not to vaccinate your children. If there is a risk, then it is reasonable to choose not to do it.

    There’s a much bigger risk for not doing it. If you found your child had a serious illness, the cure has 1% chance of causing your child to go blind, but he suffer a painful and lingering death otherwise, would it be irresponsible to refuse the cure?

  395. Johnny says:

    Exactly Gray, nothing in the world without risk, So why does that mean I have to risk something if I don’t need to? Because there are always risks that requires me to get my son vaccinated? No it doesn’t. It is not necessary to take that risk.

  396. Johnny says:

    Saul… this is BS… “Additionally, my claim of irresponsibility relates to the risk to others around your child. If a child gets measles before he has been vaccinated (because he was too young) because an older unvaccinated child gave it to him, that would be on the parent of that child. That their action or inaction gave the other child measles is the definition of irresponsible, if our job as citizens and humans is to help take care of each other and function as a healthy society…”
    If you mean what you just said then you would care about those injured by vaccines and the potential injuries. You wouldn’t mandate vaccines because there are those that will be injured. You better take care of your family first because nobody else will. You would blame an unvaccinated kid for spreading diseases? Who would I blame when my kid is injured? Who is going to step up and take responsibility? Who? How are you going to heal my kid?

  397. Saul Hymes says:

    Johnny :
    There’s your true colors Saul….. “If it were up to me, vaccines would be federally mandated with a very limited religious exemption which would require stringent proof.”
    Did you just conveniently forget about those that may be injured by vaccines? Yet, you would mandate them?

    Like I said, my own personal view, not what I do with patients, nor what is or will be policy. To me, “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one”. The vaccines we give now offer greater benefit than risk. When the diseases are eradicated or almost eradicated and the vaccines no longer needed (like with smallpox) we stop the vaccines or change the vaccine to a different one (like with polio). And again, who cares if these are my “true colors”? I never tried to hide them. Being open and honest is the first step towards having a productive discussion.
    So along those lines, as others here have said, and as I aid already, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that vacciens cause anything close to the injury anti-vaccine people claim. Guillain-Barre in some flu vaccines, sure; polio being transmitted by OPV before we switched to IPV, sure; allergic reactions or fever or swollen arms, sure; febrile seizures from some vaccines due to the fever (with no lasting neurologic damage), sure. But lasting immune damage? Autism? Death? Show me better data…

  398. harry says:

    And what a nice looking young lad you are too Saul. However, I agree with Johnny; I’m not easily intimidated by your title. Many doctors have been proven wrong and admit so.
    Also it takes a pretty pretentious young person, to assume that engaging in shoving anything down the throat of a dissenting population would be a task one could easily accomplish. Especially when we intellectually AND ’emotionally’ [as we logically consider the anecdotal as well] opine that what you may be doing could harm our children and grandchildren.
    Your ‘federal mandate’ of vaccine compliance is best left to the blind sheep, and while you look like such a pleasant young fellow, I’m glad that my grandchildren have pediatricians that aren’t so partisan in their practice.

  399. harry says:

    “needs of the few’ UNTIL IT’S YOUR CHILD.

  400. Saul Hymes says:

    Harry, as I said, not my practice with my patients, just my personal views. I don’t force anything on any of my patients except for things the law requires like mandated reporting of abuse and such. To force vaccines would be unethical under current law and standards. And I know for a fact that it wouldn’t be easy to implement–believe me, Im under no false pretenses that we could mandate anything. As I said.

  401. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Exactly Gray, nothing in the world without risk, So why does that mean I have to risk something if I don’t need to? Because there are always risks that requires me to get my son vaccinated? No it doesn’t. It is not necessary to take that risk.

    Really? You have another means of preventing disease? Why haven’t you told any of us?

    harry :
    “needs of the few’ UNTIL IT’S YOUR CHILD.

    You have no qualms putting your child at risk for a painful and possibly lethal disease. Why should worry about putting your child at risk for a rare side effect?

  402. Johnny says:

    Saul….. “So along those lines, as others here have said, and as I aid already, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that vacciens cause anything close to the injury anti-vaccine people claim. Guillain-Barre in some flu vaccines, sure; polio being transmitted by OPV before we switched to IPV, sure; allergic reactions or fever or swollen arms, sure; febrile seizures from some vaccines due to the fever (with no lasting neurologic damage), sure. But lasting immune damage? Autism? Death? Show me better data…”
    You are very naïve my friend and now I know you don’t really care. There is plenty of information out there, and as an MD, if you haven’t seen it, you are either not looking, or are in denial. Either way, to deny that information exists doesn’t make you look good, since you say you have been looking.

  403. harry says:

    “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one”… until it’s YOUR child that’s permanently and severely injured or dies. You need to revisit your hippocratic oath.

  404. Saul Hymes says:

    I have two children, Harry. Both fully vaccinated. Both fine. Also, I’m happy to admit I’m wrong, but you haven’t given me any data that would convince me to do so… So, keep calling me pretentious and act like my youth or your apparent age has _anything_ to do with the validity or either of our arguments. Because _that_ is really going to convince me you’re right…

  405. Johnny says:

    Gray…I CHOOSE my own risks for me and my family. I say it is more risky to get a vaccine then it is to get a disease that may or may not be one to worry about. I believe in boosting immune system and living healthy, rather than get vaccines. I’ll take y way over your any day of the week, and guess what, that is my right. And as I said before, unless you can guarantee that a vaccine will not harm my child now or with future his health, that is just as good a decision as yours is for you and your family. We are risking different things. But when you factor in that vaccines also don’t 100% protect you from such disease, I like my choice better.

  406. Saul Hymes says:

    Johnny, I don’t disagree that there are plenty of claims out there, but there have not been any studies in humans showing conclusively that vaccines cause autism, that vaccines cause lasting immunologic issues, or that vaccines cause death. And if you have a reference disproving me, please post it. I have read MANY, MANY, MANY “studies” done by groups and docs with little to no qualifications and with truly shoddy data that claim these findings. But the data proving that MMR does not cause autism, or that varicella vaccine does not cause death above background rates is far, far stronger.

  407. Johnny says:

    Saul, so you don’t have any colleagues that are more cautious with vaccines? That’s where you can get your information.

  408. Saul Hymes says:

    and as for my hippocratic oath, harry, it states the following (among other statements):
    “I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.”
    It does harm to patients to not vaccinate them by rendering them susceptible to disease, and so I prescribe regimens–vaccines–for the good of my patients. Until I see data that the harm from vaccines outweighs the benefit, for an individual or a group, nothing I do is even remotely unsafe or unethical.

  409. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny, if you walk onto a railway, and believe there are no trains coming, it won’t protect you at all. Reality doesn’t care about what you believe. I care about facts, and the fact remains that the vaccine is far less of a risk than the disease, and if your methods worked, we would never have developed the vaccine to begin with.

  410. Johnny says:

    Go to the family’s of vaccine injured Saul. Ask them. They aren’t crazy and stupid as people portray them to be. Usually just the opposite. Start listening to the people and quit worrying for the “citations” to catch up.

  411. Gray Falcon says:

    The families may not be crazy or stupid, but that doesn’t make them infallible. They could still be wrong. A great many people reported cases of witchcraft harmed their children, most of them weren’t crazy or stupid, either.

  412. Saul Hymes says:

    Yes, Johnny, I have met a handful of docs on the Internet who are cautious or anti-vaccine. I have read Dr. Sears’ book. None of them have anything approaching the experience and expertise with infections and vaccines that any of the pro-vaccine experts (Paul Offit, Anne Gershon, Phil LaRussa, etc.) do, first of all. Second of all, they all say the same thing you do: “there’s tons of data showing vaccines are harmful” but all they can point to when pushed is a) nothing, b) poorly-controlled in vitro studies in animals, or c) VAERS. None of those is a well-designed controlled trial or even well-designed retrospective study in humans. The data isn’t there. If it were you and others would be able to produce it and this debate would be over because _any_ doc worth their salt, including me, will happily change our practice if there is data guiding us to do so. Medicine is a science and right now, the science isn’t on your side. that may change in the future, and if it does, I’m happy to publicly declare I’m wrong.

  413. Johnny says:

    Gray, I agree. And the fact is people in my family have been injured by vaccines. So that is reality and also why no more vaccines moving forward for anybody in my family. So stop talking about the low risk of injury to me.

  414. Saul Hymes says:

    I don’t think that people who claim vaccine injury are crazy or stupid, and would never presume that. But I will have a hard time going to them since I have never met one in 8 years of practice. I have met numerous families with children injured or killed by vaccine-preventable diseases–a case of measles, some pertussis, some varicella, a case of Hib meningitis. They were all furious that their child caught the disease from an unvaccinated child who exposed them–in nearly every case we knew where the exposure came from. So I do listen to my patients, quite carefully in fact.

  415. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny, if your family was injured by vaccines, you should have no problem providing evidence of it. If you refuse, then you are failing to provide information that could protect against future harm. Do not refuse.

  416. Johnny says:

    Saul, go to the people. Listen to the people. They are telling you something, but you have to be willing to listen. And btw…there are thousands of studies related to vaccines that should and would make you question them. Do I need to send you an email? I guess I can look up your information and send you information if you need me to.

  417. Saul Hymes says:

    Johnny, I’m sorry people in your family have been sick or injured. And I’m sorry you feel it was from vaccines. Perhaps in your case it was. But that still doesn’t make non-vaccination right for the rest of society.

  418. Johnny says:

    Gray… You think I am going there with you? A person who doesn’t give a care in the world about my injured family members and actually mocks them? You must be out of your mind.

  419. Gray Falcon says:

    Question, Johnny. If “boosting immune system and living healthy” could prevent disease, why have their been plagues?

  420. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Gray… You think I am going there with you? A person who doesn’t give a care in the world about my injured family members and actually mocks them? You must be out of your mind.

    Where did I mock them? Where did I say I didn’t care? And yes, I do expect evidence. If I knew a bridge was damaged and couldn’t support a car’s weight, but failed to tell anyone about it, I would be guilty of murder if it collapsed. Likewise, if refuse to give that information, you are guilty of murder as well.

  421. Johnny says:

    Saul, assuming you believe my family was injured by vaccines, why does that not make non-vaccination right for the rest of society? You don’t care about the injuries? You think it is for the greater good? As a parent, it is not worth the risk of one of those injuries to my child. I choose my child over what you consider the good of society. As I said before, who steps up and takes responsibility when my child is injured? Society? Not. Guess what, nobody cares. This forum is a perfect example of how those who are injured are treated. It must be a lie. There is no connection. It is one in a billion.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      As I said when I started all of this off, regardless of my personal views, it is your choice and you can choose not to vaccinate your family. And I will continue to urge and promote vaccination as a generally safe and effective means of preventing disease until the data or some sort of respected and trustworthy rule-making body says otherwise.

  422. Johnny says:

    Gray, you mock them with your existence. You don’t have any of the necessary traits to have any compassion or anything else. Your very nature is mocking.

  423. Gray Falcon says:

    Correction, homicide. Murder requires premeditation.
    Would you willingly murder a hundred innocent people to keep your children from being injured? Because these are the stakes at hand.

  424. Johnny says:

    Saul, I have to go. I sincerely hope you take more time in your profession to seek out more answers and find out how dangerous vaccines really are. Good day.

  425. Johnny says:

    hahhah ha Gray…you don’t see the irony in this?…. “Would you willingly murder a hundred innocent people to keep your children from being injured? Because these are the stakes at hand.”

  426. Gray Falcon says:

    Johnny :
    Gray, you mock them with your existence. You don’t have any of the necessary traits to have any compassion or anything else. Your very nature is mocking.

    Johnny, if I didn’t care about your child, I would have said he deserved it, or that he didn’t matter. That I’m asking for evidence is a sign of compassion: I’m willing to listen if you’re willing to talk to me. Why are you refusing?

  427. Gray Falcon says:

    By the way, something relevant:

    “There is always a choice.”
    “You mean I could choose certain death?”
    “A choice nevertheless, or perhaps an alternative. You see I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.”

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/270644-there-is-always-a-choice-you-mean-i-could-choose
    If one these people’s gets sick, and passes on their illness to an infant or cancer patients, would they be willing to accept the consequences?

  428. Chris says:

    Second try:
    Johnny, please tell us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from chicken pox.. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.
    And if your family is so sensitive to vaccines that they are routinely injured by them, then they have a medical exemption. But it also means that they would be even more harmed by actually getting chicken pox. So how do you protect them from illnesses?

  429. Gray Falcon says:

    I think Johnny earlier mentioned “boosting immune system and living healthy” in #435, but refused to elaborate, or explain why that would work. My guess is, nothing that hasn’t been tried or done for centuries.
    Sorry if I’ve been short with everyone. I just updated a program at my office, and it’s been giving me attitude problems all day.

  430. Chris says:

    Well, Gary Falcon, I have asked for a proven method. And if “boosting immune system and living healthy” worked so well, then vaccines would be harmless.

  431. harry says:

    Saul, for the good of your patients? Then you hypocritically regard your hippocratic oath. According to your statements here, you would knowingly vaccinate a child deemed unhealthy, for the greater good of society, while ignoring the specific medical circumstance of your individual patient. That can hardly be for the ‘patients good’.
    In your learned opinion, would you say that all of your peers conclusively concur that vaccines are always worth the risk? Do you/they also agree that every scientist/doctor is indisputably convinced that ALL the evidence is in on our newer vaccines, and that they are absolutely not causing medical injury?
    If even some doctors and scientists continue studies which show evidence that vaccines may harm some, and which may later show that they shouldn’t be used by certain individuals, wouldn’t that show that the science remains divided on the subject?
    Also Saul, I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions while not just insulting our differing opinions.
    I have one more point or question; depending on how one wants to take it. Your bio shows that you treat Lyme disease. I’m only slightly aware of the illness, as I was forced to try to understand the test results firsthand when mine came back positive. But wouldn’t you agree that not very long ago, Lyme was a mystery, and there was no medical science on Lyme? When the symptoms began to surface and evidence mounted, there were still those experts who claimed Lyme was a figment of these radical scientists, doctors and patients imaginations. Now the presence of Lyme is widely accepted as a valid disease.
    I may not be a doctor, but as other posters on here have offered, there is often very good reason to consider anecdotal evidence; beginning with logic and ending with experimentation and testing. So you now practice in what was laughed at in the science/medical community until quite recently. Why would you not even *consider* that years from now, science may conclude that many of the ingredients in vaccines could have caused harm to our children and grandchildren?
    I don’t mean to appear disrespectful, and hope that I haven’t since you’ve been so gracious with your time and knowledge. I certainly take offense with your politics but that’s not the issue here.
    I would like to know the logic of why you accept Lyme disease. Had you always considered it a valid illness due to your younger age; or do you recall a time when Lyme disease was NOT accepted by science and doctors? Should you have been in the association which considered that original data was WRONG about Lyme, why would you not be open to the idea, that science could again conclude otherwise, after further long term studies are done on vaccines?
    In the scope of our human history, vaccines are still in infancy; especially many of the newer ones. How can you be so sure of the long term effects on our children?

  432. Lawrence says:

    @harry – perhaps you should actual know the history of Lyme Disease first, before you construct a series of Strawman arguments about how it was originally diagnosed….
    Try reading: “Spillover: Animal Infections and the next Human Pandemic” by David Quammen….you might actually learn something.

  433. dingo199 says:

    Johnny,

    Johnny :
    Saul, assuming you believe my family was injured by vaccines, why does that not make non-vaccination right for the rest of society? You don’t care about the injuries? You think it is for the greater good? As a parent, it is not worth the risk of one of those injuries to my child.

    Think of it this way. You are a parent, and your child develops an extremely rare but serious allergic reaction to some type of food. As a result, you campaign against food, and insist that BigFarma is trying to kill people and make profits on the back of everyone’s misery. People should be able to prevent the sale and distribution of food if they wish. Throw all thought of the “greater good” that nutrition bestows on society out the window – because why should society get to feed itself, when in doing so one child in a million might come to harm? As a parent, [having your child] eating food is not worth the risk, is it?
    See how idiotic that sounds? Well, vaccination comes close to that. It’s not essential to life in the way food is, but feel free to substitute other terms like sunshine, education, bicycles etc for “food” in the example above.

  434. dingo199 says:

    Re Lyme disease… always interesting to realize that a reasonably good vaccination for Lyme disease was driven off the market by antivaccine sentiments.
    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-lyme-disease-vaccine
    Score one for the antivaxers and the Borrelia, nil for rational, vulnerable victims everywhere.

  435. harry says:

    How about you read “A Brief History of Lyme” [as in Lyme, Conn.] by Conn. dept. of health
    before shooting your mouth off.

  436. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, do you know why Lyme disease was accepted? Research and evidence. Not people accepting stories at face value. Not screaming about how obvious and logical things are. Not attacks on the character of those who thought otherwise. Actual scientific research. We started with anecdotal evidence, but we didn’t end there. If that was how science worked, we’d still be bleeding out people and hanging witches. When we ask for more information about possible vaccine injuries, we are simply doing what scientists are supposed to be doing: research.

  437. dingo199 says:

    In your learned opinion, would you say that all of your peers conclusively concur that vaccines are always worth the risk? Do you/they also agree that every scientist/doctor is indisputably convinced that ALL the evidence is in on our newer vaccines, and that they are absolutely not causing medical injury?

    My peers conclude that on balance, vaccines are worth the risk.
    And no-one claims that every scientist is convinced all the evidence is available and they are not causing injury…where did you get the notion that anyone said this was the case?
    Again, one weighs up the risk-benefit equation, using all the available evidence, and makes recommendations based on that. It may be that some later factor swings this balance in another direction, and then recommendations change. Science is replete with examples of this; it is the process of progress. But all we can do is go by the best evidence there exists at that time – not to do so would have us still stuck in the Dark Ages, scared to advise that people bound up bleeding wounds or extracted rotten teeth, for fear that something bad might conceivably happen years in the future.

  438. harry says:

    No! A parent who’s not as idiotic as your scenario, would not buy or feed that food to their own child. They would also make sure their child is equipped with proper identifiers regarding the serious allergy to all authority figures involved.
    To embellish YOUR scenario [the vaxemall mindset] the mom of the allergic child would shove the allergy causing food into all of society, in the hopes that their son/daughter will no longer be allergic to that food. 😉

  439. harry says:

    Thank you for your very coveted opinion dingo. However, I was addressing my questions and comments to Saul.

  440. dingo199 says:

    I don’t mean to appear disrespectful

    Stopping telling people to read things “before shooting their mouths off” when they point you to some evidence might go some way to helping you avoid this.

  441. Chris says:

    harry, please tell us your proven method to protect kids with compromised immune systems from chicken pox.. Tell us how you would protect kids with cancer from chicken pox. Also tell us how you would protect babies too young to get the vaccine from chicken pox.

  442. Gray Falcon says:

    It’s odd. The anti-vaccine folks sound like “logical” characters on some shows where they constantly question the dangerous actions the heroes take, while the pro-vaccine folks are the “ignorant” heroes willing to go forward and take the risks if the alternative is far worse. To go forward, one must take risks.

  443. dingo199 says:

    Harry, if you don’t want other people to contribute on this forum discussion or respond to you, perhaps you could suggest Saul emails you so you can have a cosy tete a tete in private.

  444. dingo199 says:

    PS, seeing as how I am an infectious diseases physician, my peers are likely to be very similar to those of Saul.

  445. dingo199 says:

    harry :
    How about you read “A Brief History of Lyme” [as in Lyme, Conn.] by Conn. dept. of health
    before shooting your mouth off.

    And there was me looking up Lime, as in citrus fruit. Silly me. Thanks for the head’s up!

  446. harry says:

    Look it up dingo… it shows the history of a once ridiculed theory, often laughed at, which years later was proven a valid illness. So ‘silly you’, laugh all you like.
    Show me how to check your credentials dingo, and I may choose to speak to you as well. But that alone doesn’t guarantee that I’ll respect you or your attitude any more than I do now.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      Harry, I’ll address your points in turn:
      1. If what I said here made it sound like I don’t take a history and ignore my patient’s risk factors, then clearly I misrepresented myself. If a patient has any of the valid, published, documented contraindications to a vaccine then I will absolutely not vaccinate them–to do so would shift the balance towards harm, obviously. But “a child deemed unhealthy” is a meaningless statement when it comes to vaccinating vs. not–too vague. It is in fact the case that a mild acute illness is _not_ a contraindication to vaccination, though some acute illnesses are and then, as I said, I would not vaccinate and would wait until the illness resolved.
      2. My peers–board certified pediatricians and infectious disease doctors–are fairly universally pro-vaccine and would concur that, except in known, documented cases of something contraindicating the vaccine, they are worth any possible risk. And yes, we do not believe we are causing injury–if we did, we would not vaccinate! We’re not monsters…
      3. doctors and scientists are absolutely continuing studies, that doesn’t mean the science is divided. Smoking has been conclusively linked to lung cancer, but studies on smoking continue. Chemotherapy with methotrexate is the mainstay of treatment for leukemia but studies on chemo and leukemia continue. The science can be pretty unified while still acknowledging areas of improvement, which I acknowledged to Johnny in one of my first posts.
      4. Regarding Lyme, I was not around professionally for its origins as a disease and indeed trained in the era where we knew essentially what it was and how to treat it. But I have said here numerous times that if science concludes that vaccines or a vaccine or a vaccine in a particular population is/are harmful, I will happily change my practice. I can count dozens of times in my career so far that I have changed my practice in the face of new evidence–medicine is always changing. But the evidence as it stands now is pretty preponderant in favor of vaccination, nearly all medical professionals would agree.
      Finally, you mention Lyme–while vaccines may be new compared to human history, vaccines are NOT in their infancy compared to Lyme or indeed compared to much of modern medicine. We have been vaccinating since 1796 (smallpox) and vaccines other than smallpox since the late 1800’s/early 1900’s. Vaccines are older than antibiotics. They are older than coronary bypass operations. They are older than insulin for diabetes. They are older than almost anything we currently do in modern medicine–even tylenol or ibuprofen are newer! Surely 100-200 years of data and experience counts for something…

  447. Gray Falcon says:

    Okay, I found it:
    http://www.ct.gov/dph/cwp/view.asp?a=3136&q=388506
    According to them, they did actual studies and surveys, and produced peer-reviewed papers. Nothing about it being accepted because someone claimed it was “logical”, or simply accepting anecdotal claims without study. So in other words, exactly the opposite of the anti-vaccine movement.

  448. Chris says:

    When was Lyme disease a ridiculed theory? The studies that determined it was a tick borne bacterial infection are covered in Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic.
    Also, harry, you should post your credentials. I see no reason to believe anything you say, especially when you make statements and refuse to provide verifiable documentation to support them.

  449. Chris says:

    So what does Lyme disease, a bacterial infection with a tick vector, have to do with chicken pox, a viral disease?

  450. Kelsey says:

    Thanks for great comments, Harry and Johnny! Millions used to get chickenpox every year, only a hundred died of it, usually older people or those with weak immune systems (and I agree that the best training for an immune system is to overcome real diseases, not be messed up and weakened by vaccine deception). Every person should be, and is, in all states except Mississippi and West Virginia) free to choose whether or not to get this or other vaccines for their schoolchildren. I chose not to, and my children got natural chickenpox. It was certainly the right decision for our family. Heaven knows they wouldn’t have gotten a particle of help or sympathy from anyone if they had been damaged by the vaccine. Chris, rather than try to damage all healthy children with vaccines in a vain attempt to protect the immunecompromised, it would be better to work on strengthening the immune system of these children. It is true that they would be better off not getting the vaccines, everybody would be better off not getting them. And there are pathogens that cause hundreds of other diseases out there that there are no vaccines for. Parents of children so vulnerable should try to keep them out of harm’s way, maybe homeschool them, until they are able to improve their immune functioning.

  451. Gray Falcon says:

    Kelsey, do you have any evidence that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease? If the vaccine kills more than a hundred a year, you should have no problem proving it to us. Death on that scale is hard to miss.

  452. Angela says:

    Harry meant that it is better in most cases to let the immune system become skilled in its work of protecting the body from being harmed by pathogens. It is better to teach it its functions by letting it battle actual bacteria and viruses than to try to trick it into producing a certain kind of antibody to a vaccine pathogen for a limited length of time. Vaccines always cause inflammation, which often becomes excessive and involves the brain (encephalitis). Vaccines sensitize the immune system to substances that resemble things in the vaccines, causing every kind of autoimmune disease, including the allergies and asthma that have become so much more common since the vaccine epidemic began in 1988. Toxins such as mercury, aluminium, formaldehyde, and so on all cause toxicity symptoms of their own, further impairing normal body functions. If the immune system does not learn by practice, it is less likely to function appropriately when a unconfused immune system is needed. Chickenpox is an excellent intermediate-level challenge, although measles is a still better one.

  453. Chris says:

    Kelsey: “Millions used to get chickenpox every year, only a hundred died of it, usually older people or those with weak immune systems ”
    Really? We are not supposed to care about those deaths because they were in older and those with weak immune systems? So what are you credentials to determine who deserves to live or die?
    Did you read the article at the top of this page?
    “Chris, rather than try to damage all healthy children with vaccines in a vain attempt to protect the immunecompromised, it would be better to work on strengthening the immune system of these children.”
    Citation needed. Give us the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the varicella vaccine causes “damage all healthy children.”
    What is your proven system to strengthen the immune system of children undergoing treatment for cancer? Provide real citations.
    “Parents of children so vulnerable should try to keep them out of harm’s way, maybe homeschool them, until they are able to improve their immune functioning.”
    So what did Jesse’s parents do wrong? Give us your unsolicited opinion of what they did wrong.
    You have three chances to answer those questions.

  454. Gray Falcon says:

    Angela, any evidence for your claims?
    I find it fascinating that new commenters that act exactly like the old ones always seem to pop up right when we back the last ones up into a corner, while the last ones vanish entirely. I’m reminded of the old Doctor Who serials, where, to conceal the fact that the only had a few Dalek props, had them attack in single file.

  455. Chris says:

    Angela: “Vaccines always cause inflammation, which often becomes excessive and involves the brain (encephalitis).”
    Citations needed that the varicella vaccine causes more inflammation than chicken pox.
    Also, I am sure that both Kelsey and Angela are sock puppets for the former Missouri lawyer. They are repeating the same drivel as the other socks earlier in this thread.

  456. novalox says:

    @kelsey
    [citation needed]

  457. Chris says:

    Kelsey: “Parents of children so vulnerable should try to keep them out of harm’s way, maybe homeschool them, until they are able to improve their immune functioning.”
    Babies are also very vulnerable to chicken pox, as are the unborn if the mom gets exposed to chicken pox. How do you propose to protect them?
    Not let the baby come into contact with their siblings, other kids and even skipping well baby checks by keeping them in the house isolated to all but the mother?
    And how do you protect a baby before the mother realizes she is pregnant? Make sure all women who have a chance to become pregnant be left in isolation like chattel?

  458. Donna says:

    Chris,
    Twenty years ago no one worried about chickenpox. These were not earth-shaking problems then, they would not be now. You still have no right to force anyone to get any vaccine.
    Saul,
    You mention several luminaries as authorities, such as Dr. Proffit, you think should be considered defiinitive sources of opinions on vaccine safety, but they all have made millions from their involvement in the vaccine industry. I think everyone now is well aware of the vested interests of such people, and many do not think their opinion on the subject should be taken seriously. I certainly don’t.

  459. Chris says:

    Growing Up Unvaccinated: I had the healthiest childhood imaginable. And yet I was sick all the time.:

    If you think your child’s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it’s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines.

    And this familiar sentiment that I have for those who think kids should suffer over a week with dozens of itchy sores (pox):

    Most importantly, I want the anti-vaxxers to see that knowingly exposing your child to illness is cruel. Even without complications, these diseases aren’t exactly pleasant. I don’t know about you, but I don’t enjoy watching children suffer even with a cold or a hurt knee.

  460. Gray Falcon says:

    Donna, how do we know you’re not out for money? After all, it’s far more expensive to treat a disease than to prevent it.

  461. Chris says:

    Donna: “Twenty years ago no one worried about chickenpox.”
    Oh, come one! Stop making stuff up, Cia! My kids got chicken pox almost twenty years ago, and one kid in the oldest’s school was hospitalized.
    “You still have no right to force anyone to get any vaccine.”
    When did I try to force you to get a vaccine? I told you in Comment 354:

    And, no you don’t have to have your children get a varicella vaccine. Just make sure to comply with exemption rules and keep them away from the school if there is an outbreak, which could last a couple of months. Or start your own school for those who don’t care about public health and other people.

    Oh, and don’t try to claim to not be a person who has been banned multiple times, or one of the other socks up thread. You are much too easy to spot.

  462. Kelsey says:

    Gray,
    I don’t have to prove anything. I had chickenpox, everyone in my family, all my cousins, everyone I know had it, and everyone got well with no harm done, only permanent immunity. None of us is afraid of it. I’m afraid of the vaccine. My right.

  463. Saul Hymes says:

    Angela, why don’t you learn how vaccines and the immune system work before you start making claims.
    “It is better to teach it its functions by letting it battle actual bacteria and viruses than to try to trick it into producing a certain kind of antibody to a vaccine pathogen for a limited length of time.”
    Really? Tell that to the girl I took care of whose “actual bacteria” Hemophilus influenzae made her deaf, or the “actual virus” varicella that landed another patient in the ICU for weeks on a ventilator. These were normal healthy unvaccinated children. Also, the work of a vaccine is not a “trick”. It works exactly the way the real organism does and induces an almost indistinguishable immune response in nearly all cases.
    “Vaccines always cause inflammation, which often becomes excessive and involves the brain (encephalitis).”
    Vaccines cause an immune response. They do not cause massive systemic inflammation, they do not regularly or often cause encephalitis. Look up any of the vaccine safety inserts in the bottles for the vaccines themselves.
    “Vaccines sensitize the immune system to substances that resemble things in the vaccines, causing every kind of autoimmune disease, including the allergies and asthma that have become so much more common since the vaccine epidemic began in 1988.”
    True, autoimmune diseases have risen. But multiple studies already cited in earlier posts above have disproven that vaccines contributed to this. A temporal association is not a cause–if I go see Star Wars and on the way home am hit by a car, Star Wars did not cause my car accident. There is such a thing as a coincidence…
    “Chickenpox is an excellent intermediate-level challenge, although measles is a still better one.”
    Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that we should let people get measles??? That disease caused countless children–it is incredibly fatal in unexposed populations, killing 1/5 of all hawaiians, 1/3 of people infected in an outbreak in the 1800’s in Fiji, etc.
    Learn something about diseases and history before you start throwing around statements like the ones you are making.

  464. Donna says:

    So, no one in your family, only a child you knew about in the school was hospitalized for it. Must not have been killed or permanently damaged by it, or you would have mentioned it. Make things up? Ask people older than twenty years old, read child care books from before the vaccine, no one worried about it, they just said put calamine lotion on the lesions. They didn’t even say keep him inside if he felt all right, or keep him away from others. A lot of mothers wanted their children to catch it and get it over with.

  465. Gray Falcon says:

    Kelsey :
    Gray,
    I don’t have to prove anything. I had chickenpox, everyone in my family, all my cousins, everyone I know had it, and everyone got well with no harm done, only permanent immunity. None of us is afraid of it. I’m afraid of the vaccine. My right.

    Actually you do have to prove things. If you don’t, then you’re willingly withholding information that could be used to save lives, an unjustifiably evil act. Also, I once get struck by a car while I was walking, and I’m still alive and able to walk. Does that mean defensive driving is unnecessary?
    Donna, if we have no right to question claims of vaccine injury, why are you allowed to dismiss talk of harm by disease?

  466. Saul Hymes says:

    Donna, I have worked with all 3 of the people I mentioned. None of them are millionaires. They have a vested interest in vaccines because the studies they performed show they work, not because of money. I make money every time I see a patient in clinic and every time I diagnose an ear infection and prescribe antibiotics. But I regularly manage things over the phone without billing to spare the patients the money and the trip to the office. And I regularly avoid prescribing antibiotics. Contrary to what you may think, doctors are not in it for the money–if we were, we would have gone to business school. The hippocratic oath has meaning to us and we do what we do to help people. Wish I could say the same for people like Andrew Wakefield who made millions from his fraudulent work, or Barbara Loe Fisher who makes millions from speaking gigs…

  467. Donna says:

    I took my child to the doctor when the first pox appeared to get it on the record. He called in two medical students to see if they could guess what it was. They couldn’t. He told them it was chickenpox. He did not hit the panic button. He asked me what I would do. I said to put oatmeal in the bath, or baking soda. He asked the students why I would do that. They didn’t know. He said it was an old tradition that mothers knew about, natural ways to soothe the itch. He did not say a word about complications, hospitalization, or death. He just sent us on our way. It was a mild illness, as it nearly always is. There were ultimately hundreds of pox, and they lasted longer than I thought they would, and once one crop cleared up, another was breaking out. But not for a second did I regret having refused the vaccine four months before. I said at the time that I hoped he would catch chickenpox the natural way, and I’m very glad that he did.

  468. Saul Hymes says:

    Donna :
    So, no one in your family, only a child you knew about in the school was hospitalized for it. Must not have been killed or permanently damaged by it, or you would have mentioned it. Make things up? Ask people older than twenty years old, read child care books from before the vaccine, no one worried about it, they just said put calamine lotion on the lesions. They didn’t even say keep him inside if he felt all right, or keep him away from others. A lot of mothers wanted their children to catch it and get it over with.

    And Donna, everyone who did that 20 years ago, was ignorant of the thousands of children taking up beds in hospitals each year with their chicken pox. Talk to doctors, not laypeople who ignorantly held chicken pox parties.

  469. Saul Hymes says:

    Donna:
    “He did not say a word about complications, hospitalization, or death. He just sent us on our way. It was a mild illness, as it nearly always is. There were ultimately hundreds of pox, and they lasted longer than I thought they would, and once one crop cleared up, another was breaking out. But not for a second did I regret having refused the vaccine four months before. I said at the time that I hoped he would catch chickenpox the natural way, and I’m very glad that he did.”
    And you were lucky your children did fine and your child’s pediatrician was negligent for not mentioning possible complications to you. He did a bad job teaching his medical students if he didn’t mention to them that this could have been prevented by a vaccine and that chicken pox can be very severe. Any of us who treat children have seen it, even in this day and age, though more and more rarely thanks to the vaccine.

  470. Donna says:

    Dr. Wakefield’s work was in no way fraudulent, and HIgh Court Judge Sir John Mitting found that the Lancet study was accurate and honest, and reported the children’s development of autism and bowel disease within days of the MMR completely truthfully. He found the GMC had used shallow reasoning to reach false conclusions, and he mandated a legal board be included in future disciplinary proceedings to avoid the abuses of that one. The MMR has caused hundreds of thousands of children to develop autism and bowel disease within days of the vaccine, but, of course, the flu vaccine, DTaP, DPT, and hepatitis-B vaccine have also caused their hundreds of thousands of cases of autism too.

  471. Chris says:

    Kelsey: “I don’t have to prove anything.”
    Then we don’t have to believe you. Especially if you think there immunity after chicken pox, which very very wrong. In fact I posted a study about the stroke due to shingles:
    Neurology. 2014 Jan 2. [Epub ahead of print]
    Herpes zoster as a risk factor for stroke and TIA: A retrospective cohort study in the UK.

  472. Donna says:

    Well, he didn’t. Dr. Avery, an older doctor even at the time. He said he had been glad to see the last of the smallpox vaccine, as he had seen many cases of severe damage caused by it. He was in favor of the others, I don’t know if he still would be now. He did not say a word when I said I had refused the varicella vaccine and several others. And I’m sure he would have thought it silly to anticipate very rare problems which were extremely unlikely to occur. He seemed kind of disgusted with the students for being so out of touch.

  473. Donna says:

    You can get shingles after either the disease or the vaccine, but it used to not occur until old age. It’s becoming much more common in younger people now, probably because of all the damage done to the immune system by the vaccines. But you can’t get chickenpox again, unless you were an infant when you had it and didn’t develop trustworthy immunity because the immune system was so undeveloped. People get shingles when they are stressed or unwell, when their immune system isn’t working well. I would imagine that has a lot to do with their being more susceptible to strokes. But again, I’m glad I had the disease, I’m glad my children had it. Nearly everyone will have a stroke if they live long enough, the choices are heart attack, stroke, or cancer. I’d really prefer one of the first two when the time comes.

  474. Saul Hymes says:

    “Dr. Wakefield’s work was in no way fraudulent” Really? Then why was the study forcibly retracted, he was stripped of his medical license, and an investigation found him to be guilty of fraud: http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm
    And study after study after study has disproven the MMR autism connection:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15364187
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769550
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22521285

  475. Donna says:

    Saul,
    A lot of people now take everything doctors say with a grain of salt, do our own research, and make our own decisions. I went to a doctor two years ago with sharp recurring chest pain: she didn’t think I had a heart problem, but was willing to give me a referral to have an expensive test done. I decided not to, and on researching it on the Internet, found that it sounded like the descriptions of pleurisy. Fewer and fewer people are willing just to believe what the doctor tells them, especially when it comes to vaccines.

  476. Saul Hymes says:

    Donna, your Dr. Avery was right that the smallpox vaccine had significant adverse effects. But smallpox was fatal in 20-60% of those infected and 80% of children. So the vaccine was kind of worth it…

  477. Saul Hymes says:

    I encourge my patients to do their own research. But do you have 4 years of med school and 6 years of post-med-school training in how to read the medical iterature, understand it, and diagnose yourself? The Internet is a powerful tool but access to information doesn’t equate with the ability to understand and interpret it. And the fact that fewer and fewer listen to doctors about vaccines is why we have outbreaks of pertussis, measles, mumps, polio, etc. But that’s your prerogative as a patient–to not vaccinate and then help propogate infections that should be eradicated by now–I suppose I should thank you for keeping me in business.

  478. Saul Hymes says:

    And to be clear, my thanks remark about keeping me in business was sarcasm. Donna, you can do what you want with vaccines with your child. But don’t pretend that a computer mouse and keyboard gives you equal knowledge to your doctor. I respect my patients, their autonomy, and their ability to research topics themselves. But if you’re not going to listen to your doctors, don’t waste your time and money, or their time, and just treat yourself.

  479. Donna says:

    Gray,
    OK, I just googled it. Out of 3.9 million cases a year, there were 90 deaths, a fatality rate of 0.0023%. Another site said in adults there were 30 deaths for every 100,000 who got it, in infants under one year seven deaths in every 100,000 who got it.
    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/varicella-eng.php
    To each his own. For me, that’s not dangerous enough to give it a second thought.

  480. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppet: “Dr. Avery, an older doctor even at the time. He said he had been glad to see the last of the smallpox vaccine, ”
    Didn’t we tell your Andrea and Timothy guises that chicken pox is not smallpox?
    Dr. Hymes, I really appreciate you commenting here. But one way to keep the sock puppets manageable is to make sure to not stray off topic. Diversionary tactics into Lyme, smallpox and HPV are common tactics they use to wiggle out when they get blocked into corners, along with inventing new usernames.

  481. Donna says:

    That’s what I do. I went that once two years ago, and once eight years ago when I was bitten by a brown recluse spider, and she didn’t do anything, just said come back if the area got numb or black. $180 for her opinion. I went to the health food store, Nellie recommended putting a poultice of bentonite earth on it to draw out the venom, and by golly, it really did. We’ve got echinacea, Sambucol, wild cherry syrup for coughs, and many homeopathic remedies. One child took antibiotics once eight years ago for a sinus infection, but that was the only time he ever needed an antibiotic.

  482. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppet: “in infants under one year seven deaths in every 100,000 who got it.”
    How does that compare to the varicella vaccine? And how would you prevent babies from getting chicken pox?

  483. Donna says:

    It was just to point out that he was a traditional, conservative physician who was basically in favor of vaccines, but he had a bad opinion of the smallpox vaccine, and did not think chickenpox was anything to worry about.

  484. Saul Hymes says:

    Chris, fair enough. Apologies for my own diversions away from varicella. Just trying to educate and have interesting discussion!

  485. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppet: “That’s what I do. I went that once two years ago, and once eight years ago when I was bitten by a brown recluse spider… ”
    What are you talking about? Did you post on the wrong tab/window? What does a spider bite have to do with the relative risk between the varicella vaccine and chicken pox, and how to protect babies from the latter?

  486. Donna says:

    I would keep young infants away from groups of people, especially children. I would breastfeed them until they self-weaned, and they would get my immunity to chickenpox until they were old enough to handle it themselves. I would ask Nellie at Clover’s healthfood store for recommendations on preventing complications. I would look up chickenpox in my homeopathic books and get out the remedies most likely to be needed. And I’ll bet you that would raise their chances from seven in 100,000 deaths to 1 in 100,000 deaths.

  487. Donna says:

    Saul said I should treat myself and not waste a doctor’s time. I was agreeing with him. I only went to the doctor for the brown recluse bite because my neighbor panicked and a nurse across the street told me how dangerous it could be. The doctor agreed it was a brown recluse, didn’t think it was anything to worry about, and I”m sorry I wasted the $180.

  488. Donna says:

    Thank you, Saul, I thought it was interesting too, and all relevant to the general discussion. .

  489. Donna says:

    Saul,
    Will you permit us, Chris?
    I had measles, rubella, and chickenpox as a child, pertussis when my daughter, who had gotten the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, got pertussis anyway at 8 months and gave it to me. I had hep A after visiting a Navajo reservation, rotavirus in Mexico (two weeks of it), many flus. They were all usual cases, none serious, and I made a complete recovery. After a tetanus booster at 19, both arms were paralyzed the same day, brachial plexus neuropathy, and I went on to develop MS, diagnosed by MRI. My daughter reacted to the hep-B vax at birth with four days and nights of endless screaming, vaccine-induced encephalitis. The DTaP booster at 18 months wiped out her only two words, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. My father was paralyzed by a flu vaccine for the last three years of his life. He lost his voice for a month after the vaccine, one of the many symptoms of mercury toxicity. So all these life experiences add up to a certain predictable world view.

  490. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppet: “but he had a bad opinion of the smallpox vaccine, and did not think chickenpox was anything to worry about.”
    So what? Chicken pox is less deadly than smallpox. Smallpox is gone. And anyone who wants kids to suffer more than a week with fever and dozens of open itchy sores is a sadist.
    It is okay, Dr. Hymes. It is just that if you read down the past few hundred comments you will see a pattern. You can also read in someone’s past behavior. It is really quite sad that someone who has a PhD in Spanish, and was a lawyer has become so ill that there is absolutely no way to reason with her. She doesn’t even realize that her comments have a recognizable pattern.
    By the way, “nasik” and “harry” seem to be other persons. I have a suspicion, but nothing concrete (read the last paragraph).

  491. Donna says:

    Saul,
    After 1898, smallpox became a much milder disease than it had been, so that there were fewer and fewer deaths occurring in the outbreaks which still occurred in the US. It was often mistaken for chickenpox, it became so mild. My neighbor’s sister got it from a boy in her boarding house in Iowa in 1928, and I was surprised and shocked when she told me ten years ago. I asked it they had survived, and yes, they had. I asked if they had scars, no, they didn’t. Typical of the new variety. The last smallpox death in the US was in 1948, but they continued giving the vaccine routinely until 1970, although for those decades the only deaths were those caused by the vaccine. And in Europe, hundreds of thousands protested mandatory vaccine laws, so many died outright, had withered limbs where vaxed, got gangrene, leprosy, syphilis, or TB, or cancer at the vaccinated site from the vaccine. And even against a 98-99% vaccination rate, hundreds of thousands of vaccinated people died in the second half of the nineteenth century in Europe. Chris is mistaken when she says that they did not have that high a vaccinated rate anywhere: there were stringent laws passed in many countries in Europe. In Italy, soldiers in the army had to get revaxed every six months, and those men died of smallpox at even higher rates than the more reasonably vaccinated civilians.

  492. Donna says:

    Saul,
    I also am enjoying the discussion, and hope I may continue talking about it with you, if not here, then elsewhere.

  493. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppet: “I would keep young infants away from groups of people, ”
    How? My six month old baby caught chicken pox from her four year old brother. Was I supposed to live in a cabin with the baby without any contact to the rest of our family, including our sons?
    “After a tetanus booster at 19, both arms were paralyzed the same day, brachial plexus neuropathy, and I went on to develop MS, diagnosed by MRI. My daughter reacted to the hep-B vax at birth with four days and nights of endless screaming, vaccine-induced encephalitis.”
    Yep, this is definitely the former Missouri lawyer. The one who claimed her daughter had encephalitis yet never took the child to a doctor!
    As someone whose oldest had several seizures, and did call 911 and got referred to a neurologist, I find this to be reprehensible behavior. A couple of years ago the same child, now a young man, showed signs of a stroke… and again, we called 911 (turned out to be a complex migraine). What is your excuse, Ms. Parker, for not getting appropriate medical care for your child? Who are you to tell us to avoid a safe vaccine and letting kids suffer over a week with fever with dozens of itchy open sores, with a possibility of hospitalization and even death?
    Seriously, do your family a favor and call this clinic. Do it first thing Monday morning, please.

  494. Donna says:

    Yes, Chris, Nasik, Harry, and Johnny are other persons. I asked another old comrade here by private email if he knew who they were. I’m glad they are participating here, there are always great comments put here by comrades in arms.

  495. Donna says:

    You say it’s safe, Chris, because you deny that any reports of reactions were really caused by the vaccine.

  496. harry says:

    Thank you Dr. Saul. I appreciate your candor. I should have said, ‘the history of man’, opposed to medicine, but you spoke of vaccines from the beginning of medicine; then yes – they would not be considered so new. I DID mean though, from the time of our bodies beginning to evolve to fight foreign pathogens.
    I also applaud your honesty, saying what you did, on a site that sometimes seems that no amount of evidence would deter their opinion. You state a very open position as to the prospect of science ever mounting new evidence in the vaccine field. I have also said that I would certainly change my stance when it’s determined as conclusively as possible [until a newer study perhaps] that vaccines do NOT cause serious inflammation/injury to the point of causing harm, and all vaccines are improved to have a higher rate of effectiveness.
    I think for most of us outsiders posting here, it seems this site tells us to vaccinate unconditionally, regardless of adverse pre existing medical conditions; and the hard stance that seems to be the norm, is that no one has *ever* been seriously harmed by vaccine.
    As a doctor, I think you may also agree, that as other medical examiners have marked certain deaths as ’cause of death-undetermined’, as they occurred shortly after a vaccination, with the premise that vaccine may have been the catalyst to cause of death. Although an examiner may have opined such, but was unable to prove conclusively, why are these cases so arrogantly dismissed as in the unsubstantiated Lyme disease cases and studies, even though the autopsies are performed by your peers?
    I see you’re extremely busy with kindly offering your expertise and pov. So I understand if you don’t get to answer my latest question. But I’m very intrigued that this site claims that 99.9 % of the science and medical communities take the stand that vax never harms. So then where do the ‘undetermined’ reports come from, and why are they treated as if they are proven conclusively that the vaccine had no action whatsoever in the cause of serious injury or death?
    Thanks again Dr. Saul

  497. Donna says:

    Chris,
    I have told you. Neither the nurse who told me they had given her the vaccine without permission nor the pediatrician who came in to apologize for having forgotten to tell them I had said I didn’t want her to get it gave me the vaccine information sheet. I had no idea that constant inconsolable screaming was a major indication of a vaccine reaction. When my mother told the pediatrician, he dismissed it as colic, which wasn’t a physical condition anyway in his opinion. He forgot to mention that colic never occurs in the first week of life, and does not interfere with feeding, as this did. I doubt it even went through his head that it might be a vaccine reaction, even though it was a year after the congressional hearing that found it was a dangerous vaccine that should never be given with mercury. Dr. Sears says there’s no very effective treatment for vaccine encephalitis, but you’d better get it on the record for your action in Vaccine Court. Of course I wish I had, but not for a single second in the nights I held her and rocked her literally all night screaming did it occur to me that this was the reason I had made a special trip to the pediatrician to say that I didn’t want her to get it. That’s why they are supposed to give the sheet, so that parents will know what the signs of a vaccine reaction are.

  498. Donna says:

    Yes, Chris, it’s me, but as you said, putting even the infamous three letters on here gets the whole site deadlocked and deleted.

  499. Donna says:

    Oh, come now, Saul. The vaccine industry forced the retraction of the article and hired Brian Deer to bring the action at the GMC on his own recognizance, not being personally involved at all, and he lied and cheated along the way. The vaccine industry was very reluctant for parents to learn how dangerous the vaccine was, and they strung up Dr. W and Dr. Walker-Smith (the father of pediatric gastroenterology) as an example to doctors and researchers everywhere of what befalls those with the temerity to say what they have observed happens with some frequency after a vaccine. Some of Wakefield’s colleagues recanted, because they couldn’t afford to lose their licenses and the living their families depended on. Cowardly,, but understandable. As Dr. Wakefield, said, the Lancet study only pointed out the correlation as a suspicious possibility, and you can’t retract a possibility.

  500. Chris says:

    The Donna Sock Puppets: “Chris, because you deny that any reports of reactions were really caused by the vaccine.”
    What verified reports, Cia?

  501. Gray Falcon says:

    Donna, we both know cures are far more profitable than prevention. The “vaccine industry” has more to gain from the anti-vaccine folks than us.

  502. Chris says:

    And the real question is Ms. P, is why you refuse to consult the folks at the U. of Missouri Psyche Clinic. You have issues that are unfortunately very common and not related to any vaccine. It is nothing to be ashamed about, there is nothing you can do about it but seek appropriate help.
    You might be able to discuss why you did not seek proper medical care during the time you thought your baby had encephalitis. That kind of guilt must be tortuous.

  503. Kyra says:

    I listed several VAERS reports on Varivax the other day, with one of them being a death. VAERS investigates them, checking them out with the sources given. You don’t think any parent reporting even the most serious reaction counts as a verified report, so everyone must read the FDA-sponsored VAERS reports for themselves and decide if they think the reaction was caused by the vaccine or if it was just coincidental. Can you give any case of a severe or fatal vaccine reaction of any kind at any time that you would consider to be verified? And on what would you base that conviction when there have been so many with the same timing and same symptoms that you dismiss as coincidental?
    I did not realize she had encephalitis. I told you above that no one gave me the sheet with symptoms of adverse reactions such as inconsolable prolonged screaming. Apparently even the pediatrician did not realize in 2000 that such were symptoms of encephalitis, as opposed to the well-known, harmless syndrome of prolonged, inconsolable purple screaming, much promoted by Lara and Dorit.

  504. Kyra says:

    Chris,
    There is no solution to any problem in the world that would offer a 100% guarantee against anyone having a bad outcome. It’s lucky your daughter had chickenpox at six months and got over it. 999,993 out of every 100,000 young infants recover from chickenpox just fine, and I’m glad your daughter was one of the 999,993. I have no objection to others deciding to get any vaxes they want, I just want them to be informed on both sides of the issue.

  505. Narad says:

    Timothy :
    Ruata, C. “Vaccination in Italy,” NY Med J July 22, 1899; 133-134. I’ve got lots more similar examples.

    Heh. This is stale, but Ruata also reported a remarkable cure rate for turberculosis by what was described as “the graduated continuous inhalation of Alcohol, Creosote and Chloroform.” It turns out that there’s a underlying story: This was premised on the notion that inhaling a presumed germicide would clear things right up. A little while later, guaiacol was substituted for creosote, and some time later, glyceryl guaiacolate was born, which is better known nowadays as guaifenesin, which still doesn’t work.

  506. Narad says:

    Kyra :
    999,993 out of every 100,000 young infants recover from chickenpox just fine

    This is fascinating mathematics.

  507. Chris says:

    Kyra: “I listed several VAERS reports on Varivax the other day, with one of them being a death”
    Which are unverified self-selected anecdotes. and stillmuch less then the injury and death from actually getting chicken pox in the early 1990s.
    So, Ms. Parker, you created a new sock puppet? Why? Please just go to the Psyche Clinic at the university.

  508. Chris says:

    The Kyra Sock Puppet: “It’s lucky your daughter had chickenpox at six months..”
    Wow, you are a very cruel and sadistic person to think an infant suffering from fever and dozens of itchy pox is “lucky.” As a young college student she now has a higher chance of getting shingles in the next five years because she had chicken pox as an infant.
    That is not lucky, and it would have been better if she had the vaccine which was introduced the next year.
    Ms. Parker, your illness has made you a very cruel, vindictive and sadistic person. You really need to contact the Psyche Clinic at the university to deal with both your delusions, and your cruelty towards young children.

  509. harry says:

    Chris. 534 and 539 – How low will she go? How far below the belt will you deliver such a low blow, to make yourself feel good? You may be the biggest reason for turning decent discussion away from this site. As in my very first comment to you regarding your offensive comments in 329 and 330 which were blatantly misinterpreted by you and Gray Falcon, you’re disturbingly relentless in your arrogance.
    Btw my remark to Dr. Saul regarding Lyme, was relevant, to show that what may be frowned on one year in science/medicine, may be widely accepted the next. I wanted his opinion on this, and was glad to see that he is far more willing to consider changing his pov, should there be conclusive evidence obtained, which may counter his present pov. You can’t ask for more than keeping an open mind. Quite refreshing for this site.
    Regarding your objectionable comments to Donna, et al, I resort to another of my initial comments above. You Chris, are a boorish dolt.

  510. Samantha says:

    Chris,
    Harry is right. You shortened my comment: I said “It was lucky your daughter had chickenpox at six months and got over it.” I did not say it was lucky she got it at six months, period, as you put it. It would have been better if she had gotten it when she was over one year old, for more reliable permanent immunity. But she recovered just fine. I’m sorry you thought it was such an agonizing ordeal, most parents do not feel that way, it’s just one of the milestones of childhood and parenthood.
    And, again, you dismiss all parent reports of vaccine damage in their children as being unreliable and unverified. That’s just what you and yours do. Most would say you are incorrect, but everyone should be aware of your bias before evaluating the evidence.
    Narad,
    When looking for exact information on statistics of smallpox epidemics and outbreaks in the nineteenth century, one must go to original sources that are over a hundred years old. There just aren’t a lot of detailed articles with exact statistics written on diseases of any kind that occurred over a hundred years ago.
    I got the number from a Canadian study I gave the link for above, it was fascinating mathematics, showing how rare serious sequelae were following chickenpox infection. It was interesting that deaths were over four times more common in adults with chickenpox than in infants under one year old, 30 per 100,000 cases as opposed to 7. Much less than that in older children.

  511. Samantha says:

    Narad,
    So you’re objecting to Ruata’s experimenting over a hundred years ago with having TB patients inhale germicidal agents to see if it might improve or cure their condition, which would kill them if they could not be cured by some means? Isn’t this what scientists and researchers do? Did you hear about Vioxx? Thalidomide? Fifty years from now, everyone’s going to say They did WHAT to try to create artificial immunity to a large number of usually mild diseases? Did they have no IDEA of the forces they were tampering with?

  512. Chris says:

    Ms. Parker using the Samantha Sock Puppet: “It was lucky your daughter had chickenpox at six months and got over it.”
    And I explained it was not lucky because she had a higher chance of death, and still has a very good chance of getting shingles.
    Please stop lying. Please stop changing the subject to smallpox. Please do your family a favor and get help from the clinic at the university.
    Please get help.

  513. Samantha says:

    @Saul 495
    I recognize that some people have severe cases of VPDs like Hib, and can even die of them. But again, it’s a risk/benefit thing. Dr. Richard Halvorsen has a stunning chapter in The Truth About Vaccines about how many deaths were caused by the Hib vaccine when it was introduced in the U.K. The Hib vaccine sometimes causes diabetes. Heather Fraser’s The Peanut Allergy Epidemic has a lot of detailed information and statistics from many countries on how the Hib vaccine in particular caused the modern peanut allergy epidemic in one in fifty children in the US, slightly different rates but always a huge increase, in other countries after the introduction of HIb. Some of the vaccine ingredients resemble peanut protein closely enough to create sensitivity, and the inclusion of peanut oil to adjuvant it and several other vaccines also was the catalyst to start peanut allergies in many thousands of children. A lot of people now die from their peanut allergy. What about them? Hib was uncommon before antibiotics were developed in the 1940s. Breast feeding offers good protection, and again, so does keeping young infants away from groups of people (or individuals) who might infect them. Most people have immunity to several different subtypes of meningitis by adulthood, through subclinical exposure. I’m not telling anyone what they should decide, but they should be aware of the factors on both sides before making the decision. I got my baby three HIb vaccines, but refused the fourth when I read in Mothering about the diabetes link. If I had it to do over again, I would refuse it entirely. Meningitis can often be treated successfully with antibiotics if treatment is started soon enough.

    • Saul Hymes says:

      @Samantha, regarding your post #545:
      1. The vaccine allergy connection has not been shown to be anything other than circumstantial–yes, there is a temporal connection between peanut allergies and vaccination. There is also a connection between peanut allergies and an increase in jet travel, an increase in average household income, and an increase in the stock market. That doesn’t mean those are causes.
      2. Hib, the bacteria, was EXTREMELY common both pre-1940 and after. Any early 20th century paucity of data has to do with lack of knowledge of the bacteria which was only discovered during the 1918 flu pandemic. It was there, we just didn’t know it because lab techniques were immature. It was the most common cause of bacterial meningtiis, killed many children prior to the development of antibiotics, and rendered even those who survived deaf–in fact, bacterial meningitis, even if treated with antibiotics in today’s era, has a double-digit % risk of long-term neurologic damage.
      3. and to respond to post 546, here you are just either ignorant or confused. Hib was and is the serotype that caused/causes the VAST majority of invasive disease due to hemophilus influenzae. There are other serotypes that are not type b, and they cause ear infections and sinusitis, but do not cause bacteremia or meningitis except in people with abnormal immune systems, with the exceedingly rare exception (I have see 1 case myself). There are also only 5 serotypes of meningococcus, another meningitis-causing bacteria, that cause human disease and there are vaccines against all 5 serotypes. There is no movement to fill that gap. What you _may_ be thinking of is pneumococcus–we vaccinate currently against 13 serotypes and yes, others are moving in but they are less virulent and so rates of meningitis, bacteremia, pneumonia, and other invasive pneumococcal disease are still significantly falling.
      It _is_ about risk-benefit balance, and there is no evidence that is actually valid and substantiated that vaccines carry anything other than minimal risk. Find me a legit study and not a pop-sci book by someone (halvorsen) whose serously confilct-of-interest business model is based on an alternative vaccine schedule that guarantees he receives far more money for multiple visits than a doc who follows the traditional schedule.

  514. Samantha says:

    And there are many serotypes of Hib not included in the vaccine, which is true of the other meningitis vaccines as well, serotypes which are moving in to fill the gap created by the vaccine reducing targeting serotypes. Just like Gardasil, it targets four serotypes, when there are over 200 HPV serotypes known and more discovered all the time. At least 15 of them can cause cancer, but only four total and two cancer-causing strains are included in Gardasil. And the others are moving in to fill the gap.

  515. Samantha says:

    Chris,
    My mother, who died in April after fifteen miserable years of Alzheimer’s, which I’m sure was caused by her yearly flu vaccines, used to say to consider the source and let it pass.

  516. Chris says:

    Ms. Parker, on Monday call this clinic and make an appointment. Your multiple postings remind me of a relative when she was in her manic phase. Please get help.

  517. Saul Hymes says:

    And now, with far, far too much time taken from my real work, I will take my leave from this comment thread, at least for the foreseeable future.

  518. Lawrence says:

    @Ms Parker – you have been banned on numerous occasions & for good reason. Your continued manic postings under numerous different pseudonyms (in an attempt to make believe that there are more people who believe what you believe) is evidence of your faulty thought process & it does point to what Chris has said before – that you do need to seek help….

  519. Gaby says:

    Law,
    I don’t care at all if you or anyone else thinks my comments are from me or multiple people. Stop blocking me and I’ll use only my own name.
    Saul,
    How curious it is that China and India had zero peanut allergies until the year they introduced Hib, and then peanut allergies started appearing for the first time. Same in many other countries. Israel doesn’t have many peanut allergies because it adjuvants vaccines with sesame oil instead, so they have a lot of sesame allergies. If you read Fraser’s book, you’d learn that cottonseed allergies, sometimes fatal, were relatively common in the 1940s and early 1950s, until they realized it was from the cottonseed oil used then to adjuvant several drugs such as penicillin. When they stopped using it, the allergy stopped developing. And aside from that, vaccines skew the immune system from development toward a Th-1 response to an autoimmune Th-2 response, forcing the immune system to produce antibodies to all the many antigens contained in vaccines, both the pathogens and all the other ingredients. Fraser writes about the history of “serum sickness,” now known as allergies. Scientists and doctors have known for over a century that there is NOTHING better at creating an allery than injecting anything into the body. The foreign proteins in vaccines are particularly dangerous, as the body goes into full-scale defense mode when they are injected. You are losing your appearance of credibility if you are unaware of or deliberately ignoring these facts.

  520. Lawrence says:

    @Ms Parker – thanks for confirming it was you all along….I’ve lost count with the number of names you have used & also the number of times it has been pointed out that you are lying, misrepresenting and misinterpreting everything you’ve posted, up to and including your own story.
    Please stop and see professional help – if only for the sake of your daughter.

  521. Narad says:

    Samantha :
    Heather Fraser’s The Peanut Allergy Epidemic has a lot of detailed information and statistics from many countries on how the Hib vaccine in particular caused the modern peanut allergy epidemic in one in fifty children in the US, slightly different rates but always a huge increase, in other countries after the introduction of HIb. Some of the vaccine ingredients resemble peanut protein closely enough to create sensitivity, and the inclusion of peanut oil to adjuvant it and several other vaccines also was the catalyst to start peanut allergies in many thousands of children.

    Too bad adjuvant 65-4 has never, you know, actually been used. Hib, when it’s adjuvanted at all in the U.S., uses aluminum. The assertion that any of the three conjugated proteins “resemble” the Ara h family “closely enough” to somehow create an IgE-mediated hypersensitivity instead of doing what they’re supposed to most definitely is in need of citation.

  522. Narad says:

    Samantha :
    Narad,
    So you’re objecting to Ruata’s experimenting over a hundred years ago with having TB patients inhale germicidal agents to see if it might improve or cure their condition, which would kill them if they could not be cured by some means?

    No, if you had actually read for comprehension rather than using it as an opportunity to start babbling about Vioxx and so forth, you would have perhaps noted that I was amused by the history of guaifenesin.

  523. Narad says:

    Amusingly, India’s SII HibPro isn’t adjuvanted at all. Ms. Parker, could you do me a favor and find the peanut adjuvants here? (PDF)

  524. Gray Falcon says:

    Why is it that people can’t seem to take the hint? We’re looking for evidence, not ex cathedra pronouncements. Why can’t they go through the trouble of making sure what they’re saying is actually right? That’s what science is built on. (Except economics.)

  525. dingo199 says:

    Donna :
    Saul,
    Will you permit us, Chris?
    I had measles, rubella, and chickenpox as a child, pertussis when my daughter, who had gotten the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, got pertussis anyway at 8 months and gave it to me. I had hep A after visiting a Navajo reservation, rotavirus in Mexico (two weeks of it), many flus. They were all usual cases, none serious, and I made a complete recovery. After a tetanus booster at 19, both arms were paralyzed the same day, brachial plexus neuropathy, and I went on to develop MS, diagnosed by MRI. My daughter reacted to the hep-B vax at birth with four days and nights of endless screaming, vaccine-induced encephalitis. The DTaP booster at 18 months wiped out her only two words, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. My father was paralyzed by a flu vaccine for the last three years of his life. He lost his voice for a month after the vaccine, one of the many symptoms of mercury toxicity. So all these life experiences add up to a certain predictable world view.

    Yes, all these sock puppets are CIA Parker alright
    (She has told everyone about her ms after tetanus booster and he child’s encephalitis – which she self diagnosed and never took to a doctor- many times before. H ere is just one example of it:
    http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/Jabbed/about/page/i/3/h/The-Conversation/)
    I think we can safely ignore them and move on.

  526. Lawrence says:

    @dingo – she’s up to at least, what, 10 different pseudonyms in this one thread alone?
    That speaks to either desperation, mental illness or perhaps both – again Ms. Parker – please seek help, real professional help for the sake of your daughter.

  527. dingo199 says:

    harry :
    I am very intrigued that this site claims that 99.9 % of the science and medical communities take the stand that vax never harms.

    And i am amazed you think that.
    m intrigued that you think that this site claims that
    Can you point out the exact citation please, so we know you aren’t just making up stuff again?
    Once again, for the benefit of all, vaccines can cause harm. But their benefits overwhelmingly outweigh those harms, which is why all informed, rational and reasonable people support their use.

  528. dingo199 says:

    Samantha :
    Chris,
    My mother, who died in April after fifteen miserable years of Alzheimer’s, which I’m sure was caused by her yearly flu vaccines, used to say to consider the source and let it pass.

    Have you not been following the evidence?
    Dementia is LESS frequent in those who have flu vaccines

  529. Narad says:

    What else do we have here?

    Israel doesn’t have many peanut allergies because it adjuvants vaccines with sesame oil instead, so they have a lot of sesame allergies.

    Sesame oil has never been used for routine vaccination. You appear to a very tenuous grip on reality, Ms. Parker, if you’re not only making things up but then proceeding to make pronouncements on the basis of them, particularly given that at present, the prevalence of peanut allergy in Israel is higher than that of sesame.

    • reissd says:

      I’ve looked at the Israeli Ministry of Health Site about vaccines, and I’m not sure where the idea that Israel uses sesame oil in any way in vaccines comes from. They certainly don’t list it.

  530. Gabe says:

    Those concerned about the issue should read Fraser’s book. Peanut oil was widely used to adjuvant vaccines in the ’60s, but after a study was done of its effects, a law was passed so that vaccine companies would not have to list “inactive'” ingredients like adjuvants on the package, meaning that they didn’t have to list peanut oil. It may be that Israel has a similar arrangement. Israeli children who get vaccines made in other countries, or who get vaccines while visiting other countries, do get peanut allergies. There were no peanut allergies anywhere seventy years ago, and Fraser discusses books written by the top specialists in the new field of allergies in the 1930s and 1940s. They discuss allergies to milk and eggs and other common allergens, but do not mention peanut allergies because they did not yet exist.

    • reissd says:

      I’m sorry, but it’s just untrue that vaccine companies do not have to list adjuvants. Here is the relevant section of the Code of Federal Regulations: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=610&showFR=1&subpartNode=21%3A7.0.1.1.5.7
      The relevant part reads: “Sec. 610.61 Package label.
      The following items shall appear on the label affixed to each package containing a product:
      ….
      (o) The adjuvant, if present;”
      Note, also, “n) The inactive ingredients when a safety factor, or reference to an enclosed circular containing appropriate information;”
      In other words, this too is incorrect. This is just one example why Ms. Parker, in all her iterations, is not a reliable source of information. Nor is Ms. Fraser’s book, which is very inaccurate.

  531. Lawrence says:

    @Gabe – information has already been provided that peanut oil or peanut extracts have never been used in vaccines distributed to the public. If you have evidence to the contrary, please feel provide it.

  532. Lawrence says:

    @Gabe – since humans did not regularly consume peanuts until the late 19th Century, of course we wouldn’t see peanut allergies until such time as they were consumed by the general public…..

  533. Chris says:

    Please do not let the Gabe Sock Puppet derail this into another off topic subject. It has tried this before using the Fran Sock Puppet and the the Lowell Sock Puppet conversing with the Ella Sock Puppet (where Ella also explains she diagnosed her kid with encephalitis due to crying, no medical appointment required… sound familiar?).
    It is interesting that instead of posting actual verifiable data that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox, they have resorted to multiple sock puppets and derailing to other unrelated topics. This is in addition to denying the harm and cost of chicken pox, not to mention how kids who get are essentially tortured for over a week with dozens of itchy open sores.
    Ms. Parker, please call 573-882-4677 on Monday and get an appointment. Do it for your family.

  534. Narad says:

    Gabe :
    Those concerned about the issue should read Fraser’s book.

    From what I’ve seen, all she has is a lot of carrying on about patents that never saw the light of day.

    Peanut oil was widely used to adjuvant vaccines in the ’60s

    Name them.

    but after a study was done of its effects

    Cite it.

    a law was passed so that vaccine companies would not have to list “inactive’” ingredients like adjuvants on the package

    Name it.

  535. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – true…and it is also true that these diseases were never considered “mild” – they were considered “inevitable.” There is a huge difference – if there was no way for your child not to get these diseases (i.e. before vaccines) – parents just had to hope that their kids got it either old (or young, in the case of Chicken Pox) enough to have a better chance of surviving or at least not suffering the more severe side-effects of these illnesses.
    When you don’t have a choice (like vaccines) then it is a crap shoot & you hope for the best. Thank god we don’t have to do that anymore.

  536. Narad says:

    Chris :
    Please do not let the Gabe Sock Puppet derail this into another off topic subject.

    Think of it as integrated pest management. A groyse oylem, un nito eyn mentsch.
    Speaking of which:
    @”Gabe”:

    It may be that Israel has a similar arrangement.

    You lose. (PDF; sort it out for yourself.)

    There were no peanut allergies anywhere seventy years ago

    In that case, given your “reasoning,” there was no anaphylaxis “anywhere” 110 years ago. You know what trumps peanuts in India? Shrimp. When was this first documented in the literature? Moreover, what explains the fact that there were no cockroach “allergies anywhere” before 1964?

  537. dingo199 says:

    Just to post one study indicating that flu vaccination is linked to a reduced risk of getting Alzheimer’s…
    http://www.cmaj.ca/content/165/11/1495.full?eaf
    Why do the delusions that pervade certain antivaccine spheres persist so strongly in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
    It must be a particularly virulent type of cognitive dissonance, coupled with that unusual psychological phenomenon where if you demonstrate that someone with strongly held beliefs is wrong, it can merely increase their desire to cling to that belief more tightly. I am getting heartily sick of Cia Parker spamming the internet with her repeated lies, and hope that’s the last we see of her here (but fear that an absence from this blog just indicates she will be infesting some other site).

  538. harry says:

    testing… one two…
    you block me for dol+ when you frequently call posters far worse
    such partisan censorship

  539. Chris says:

    Here is a suggestion, actually abide by comment rules, and post actual scientific evidence.

  540. Gray Falcon says:

    There’s a good possibility that’s an automatic reflex, harry. Your habit of assuming the worst of us is getting tiring. If the word in question was central to your argument, perhaps you should re-consider your strategy.
    By the way, if we were really engaging in partisan censorship, no anti-vaccine comments would be showing at all. We are being far more tolerant than you believe we are.

  541. harry says:

    Where is the set of rule for members? Surely it must read differently than ‘non-member’ poster guidelines, as admin. seems to tolerate their frequent, abusive indiscretions.
    As I said, partisan censorship. Good to know.

  542. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, give us some examples of these “frequent, abusive indiscretions.” No, that does not include requests for evidence.

  543. Lawrence says:

    @harry – there are no “members” just people who post here. Which even you are allowed to do, despite your repeated directed insults towards other posters.

  544. harry says:

    I’m onto your little ruse GF. Get me to post the many inflammatory remarks of the ‘regular’ posters, so that I can be permanently banned. Just kidding [I hope]!
    No, I’ll just wait until another good article comes along, that has commenters as informative and “gracious” of tolerance, as Dr. Saul. But Chris even chased ‘him’ away. Sad!

  545. Gray Falcon says:

    Saul Hymes :
    And now, with far, far too much time taken from my real work, I will take my leave from this comment thread, at least for the foreseeable future.

    harry, blatant dishonesty makes you look much worse than any insult I could give.

  546. harry says:

    I haven’t figured out use of your quote button yet, but respectfully, please see Chris at 512 and Dr. Saul’s response at 516.
    It was a nice change to finally see discussions on this site, without the usual hostility and disparagement, even with opposing povs. I commend Dr. Saul for that, along with his admitted manner for making the changes needed, when the SCIENCE and MEDICINE DO change his pov, while not allowing arrogance to deter such a revision.
    And with all due respect GF, how do you plead to the brazen, public provocation Chris inflicted on woman who’s grief of her young daughter’s harm, may have caused some m.h. issues?
    That is what Chris did. I don’t care what anyone’s stand on vaccine is. This was morally unacceptable, and I think it shows her tenacious and merciless attitude.
    Now will you kindly apologize for calling me dishonest GF?
    Please and thank you!

  547. Gray Falcon says:

    These quotes:

    Chris :
    The Donna Sock Puppet: “Dr. Avery, an older doctor even at the time. He said he had been glad to see the last of the smallpox vaccine, ”
    Didn’t we tell your Andrea and Timothy guises that chicken pox is not smallpox?
    Dr. Hymes, I really appreciate you commenting here. But one way to keep the sock puppets manageable is to make sure to not stray off topic. Diversionary tactics into Lyme, smallpox and HPV are common tactics they use to wiggle out when they get blocked into corners, along with inventing new usernames.

    And:

    Saul Hymes :
    Chris, fair enough. Apologies for my own diversions away from varicella. Just trying to educate and have interesting discussion!

    Okay, it appears to be nothing like what you say it is. You do know what “lying” means, don’t you?

  548. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, harry, the thing about Lyme disease: Chris was doing precisely what the scientists who confirmed the existence of it did. She asked questions, she sought out evidence. There are a great many false leads in science, it takes hard work and dedication to find the truth. Don’t assume nobody’s looked into vaccine damage. We’ve been looking into it for over a century.

  549. Chris says:

    harry: “their frequent, abusive indiscretions.”
    “public provocation Chris inflicted on woman who’s grief of her young daughter’s harm, may have caused some m.h. issues?”
    The comment policy:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;

    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    I am personally quite saddened that a woman who has accomplished so much like getting a PhD in Spanish and a law degree has an illness. Since our family went through the wringer when a member experienced the same symptoms, I am very sympathetic. This is why I am begging her again to seek help to spare her family the absolute heart ache our family went through. If you know her personally, please, please, please help her get the care she needs.
    Now, harry, I have yet so see any actual science from you. Why are you here?

  550. harry says:

    I certainly haven’t lied GF. I feel Chris chastised Dr. Saul with, “I really appreciate you commenting here, BUT”. I opine that she chased him off, until he could clearly see, as I had, that donna, parker, et al, was having issues.
    Since Chris knows this person, had she been sincere, she could have emailed or otherwise contacted this person. Only in the last few comments does Chris back peddle and try to look like she’s really concerned, to cya for her deplorable comments. And that’s the crux. She intended to publically humiliate her and make her feel GUILT for her own injured child.
    I then opine that Dr. Saul tried to diffuse the situation by placating her, since donna and friends kept posting for the most part, questions and comments directly to him.
    Chris was attempting to also make a fool of me regarding my statement on Lyme. However, I’m old enough to remember when there was NO Lyme, and that in it’s beginning, scientists and many doctors, poopooed the notion of the now proven disease which was first largely discovered in Lyme, Conn. Her motives may not be as noble as you assume GF.

  551. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, are you God? Are you somehow able to know what people think? Did it ever occur to you that there are several way of interpreting those events, not all as cruelly as you did?
    Now tell me, how did the concept of Lyme disease get accepted? Did somebody just stand on a street corner yelling “Ticks cause Lyme disease!” until everyone believed him, or was there actual research, like what we’re trying to do?

  552. harry says:

    As I said earlier GF, it’s nice to know that should another good article which I may like to participate in, surface; and one where the ‘regular’ posters are not hurling hostile insults to every opposing pov, that I’m able to do so, without being blocked for the time being.
    Have a wonderful evening GF.

  553. Chris says:

    harry: “Chris was attempting to also make a fool of me regarding my statement on Lyme.”
    I don’t think I am the one guilty of creating that perception.
    I sincerely appreciated Dr. Hymes’ contribution, but I have found that there are common tactics by those who wish for the return of illness:
    1. the use of sock puppets, you can see that one person has used multiple identities.
    2. derailing the discussion by bringing up off topic subjects (other vaccines, etc)
    3. derailing the discussion by disparaging other participants
    4. refusing to answer questions with actual science, and demanding that science be ignored.
    Now that you have done all four of those, I believe I can ask you yet again: why are you here if you refuse to engage in any form of honest dialog?

  554. harry says:

    Would you assume me to engage in honest dialog, if I said I was here for your kind, noble, gracious, empathetic, impartial and forgiving personality?
    Have a good evening.

  555. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, what part of “actual science” don’t you understand? And by the way, interpreting everyone’s words in the most negative way possible only makes you look suspect.

  556. Chris says:

    Why are you here, harry? From the start all you have done is hurl insults at us, tried to derail to off topic subjects and not provide us any kind of scientific evidence. If you don’t like the scientific evidence that we have posted, then provide real actual science to prove us wrong.

  557. Narad says:

    harry :
    However, I’m old enough to remember when there was NO Lyme

    ORLY? Are you sure? Perhaps you should be less attached to names and pay more attention to what is actually known about the history of B. burgdorferi, which extends to frank archaeology.

  558. novalox says:

    @harry
    Considering that you have insulted posters here, especially when we can see your past posts (ex. post #333), your tone trolling makes you really look like a hypocrite.
    So then, why should anyone believe you or even bother with you, since you continually fail to show any actual science behind your beliefs?

  559. Chris says:

    novalox: “Considering that you have insulted posters here,”
    Starting with his first comment “If that’s what you two took away from 326, you clearly do have severe comprehension problems.” and his second comment: “Let me see if I can keep it real simple for a cretin like yourself. None of the above you boorish dolt.” Both of which violate this sites comment policy.
    I don’t believe “harry” posted anything that was actually scientifically relevant. So if we are so terribly wrong why has he not posted one iota of scientific data to prove that?

  560. harry says:

    Monday morning quarterbacking? Perhaps you should learn the history of Lyme and why it’s called Lyme. I never said that more wasn’t learned in later years, and that they’ve since correlated findings to similar ticks in Europe carrying the same spirochete. Also, now that much more is known about Lyme since it’s discovery in the 70’s, by 2 moms in Conn. putting together ‘anecdotal’ studies, it’s now presumed that the spirochete was here before colonial times, but remained unknown.
    However, in the 70’s, we didn’t have the data you have today. The spirochete was named in the early 80’s by Burgdorfer.
    Given that me and and one of my children both had it, due to my age, and the fact that I majored in biology, yeah, ‘I’m sure!’
    And perhaps ‘you’ should pay more attention to your dates when you read.

  561. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, none of that changes the fact that Lyme disease was confirmed by physical evidence. If

  562. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, none of that changes the fact that Lyme disease was confirmed by physical evidence. I’m fairly certain you didn’t major in biology, seeing as you have no idea why we need physical evidence, or how the human immune system works.

  563. Chris says:

    harry: “Monday morning quarterbacking?”
    It is still Sunday evening here (and in most of the USA, hello Mr. Michaels!). And exactly what does Lyme have to do with chicken pox? This is you again trying to derail the discussion away from the topic. Tiny hint: Lyme is a bacterial disease that is transmitted by ticks and treated with antibiotics, and varicella is a viral disease that even after you recover will come back as shingles.
    Why are you here, harry? If it is to discuss Lyme disease, you are on the wrong thread and perhaps the wrong website. If you wish to discuss Lyme disease, perhaps you would rather comment on these posts. I would love to see you show your intellectual fortitude there! (though be cautious, all new comments are moderated, and anyone caught using a sock puppet is permanently banned, like Thingy.)

  564. harry says:

    And Chris and GF DIDN’T insult and make false accusations in 329 and 330, where they misrepresent the poster’s comments to the point of saying he was prejudiced against the handicapped and ‘that one healthy child is worth 10 with compromised immune systems’.
    That is NOT what 326 said and anyone who would arrogantly misrepresent such deserves to be called what was posted in 333.
    Also, if you go back and read the posts listed above, and still feel Chris and GF did ‘nothing wrong’, then you are a ‘biased’ hypocrite novalox.

  565. Gray Falcon says:

    I think harry’s bringing up Lyme disease because he thinks it’s an example of why we shouldn’t always trust the “establishment”. He fails to realize that the issue at hand is not blind faith in the current state of knowledge, but the lack of evidence provided by the anti-vaccine folks.

  566. harry says:

    Don’t know what ‘thingy’ you mean, but apparently you lack the capacity to understand that 596 was a response to 593. So take it up with norad if you’re offended by it and learn how to comprehend what you’re reading and above all else, GROW UP!

  567. Narad says:

    harry :
    And perhaps ‘you’ should pay more attention to your dates when you read.

    Why? I didn’t mistake any dates. Your claim was that borreliosis didn’t exist because you don’t remember it. How you manage to arrive at the conclusion that Polly Murray and some other mom “in Conn.” were responsible for the discovery itself rather than for attracting the attention of Allen Steere, who actually “put[] together ‘anecdotal’ studies [sic]” is anybody’s guess. It was, after all, still just a cluster of arthritis at the time, which is a far cry from what Lyme disease is actually understood to be.
    The fact of the the matter is that an arthropod vector was suggested immediately, which puts to rest your assertion that “not very long ago, Lyme was a mystery, and there was no medical science on Lyme… When the symptoms began to surface and evidence mounted, there were still those experts who claimed Lyme was a figment of these radical scientists, doctors and patients imaginations,” which is the entire basis for this pointless digression.
    Who claims that grossly swollen knees are a figment of anyone’s imagination? It appears that you are either confusedly or quite deliberately conflating Lyme disease with “chronic Lyme disease,” which is all noise and no signal in either case.

  568. novalox says:

    @harry
    Hey, still calling people names, even though you exhort people to “grow up?”
    Why should anyone give you any respect, hypocrite, since you deserve none?
    Also, since you still cannot give any evidence for your assertions, we can all assume that you believe that the varicella vaccine is effective and more safe than the disease.

  569. Lawrence says:

    Back on topic – with the advent of safe and effective vaccines, it should be criminal to purposely expose one’s child to an infectious disease…..you can’t control the potential side-effects from these diseases (as is pointedly shown above), and you also protect those that for legitimate medical reasons, cannot be vaccinated.

  570. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, Harry’s complaints about us about post 329, where we discussed the apparent implications to someone’s statement, are no longer valid now that he spent all of post 585 reading the most evil motives into everything we said.

  571. dingo199 says:

    I am afraid I may have been responsible for mentioning Lyme initially – I pointed out to one of the trolls how it was an example of how a perfectly reasonable vaccine had been withdrawn because of unverified antivaccine scare stories.
    Harry then jumped in, presuming to tell us we knew nothing aboiut the disease (I am an ID physician who currently treats around 10-12 patients a year) and how it was “ignored” by the medical profession following its first description.
    Of course, no evidence to the contrary will sway him from his delusion, so there is little point carrying on trying.

  572. Chris says:

    harry: “learn how to comprehend what you’re reading and above all else, GROW UP!”
    I comprehend fully that you have not provided any scientific evidence to show that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox. I have actually ignored the insults, and actually have been looking for citations. And you have produced none that are relevant to the above article.
    Now, again, harry, why are you here? If the above article showing that chicken pox can kill an healthy child is wrong, then please present your scientifically verifiable evidence to the contrary.

  573. Gray Falcon says:

    dingo: Don’t worry, harry made the first mention, in #462, where he tried to use it as an example of science moving forward. He failed, again, to realize why and how science moves forward.

  574. harry says:

    Do you even know what monday morning quaterbacking means narad? It’s much easier to go back and act so ‘know it all’ *after* the game, event, or DISCOVERY.
    I never said I didn’t remember. I also didn’t say that borreliosis didn’t exist before the 70’s. I said that Lyme disease was yet unknown. That is a fact. Or do you also deny that the spirochete was only named such in the 80’s as well? I lived with this event in the media, because I was already an older adult with children of my own in the 70’s.
    Why did I bring up Lyme? Because apparently unlike the rest of you, I took the time to read Dr. Saul’s bio, and saw that he sees and Lyme in his practice. Consequently, I *logically* correlated the ridicule and disbelief of the early Lyme skeptics, to people like yourself {and perhaps Dr. Saul as well}, who frequently ridicule those who question the safety of some vaccines in certain individuals. I was *again* pointing out that science changes, and what may not be proven presently, and is scorned and laughed at, may be the model years later.
    It’s pretty easy to subsequently find more science on a subject, as the yrs. pass [over 40], and our technology has advanced accordingly, huh narad?
    But keep on with your flawed monday am quarterbacking [trying to appear intelligent after the fact] and your own erred ‘noise and no signals’, because readers love when you arrogant ‘regular posters’ humiliate yourself with your obstinate ignorance.
    novalox, I don’t desire respect from the ilk of the *regular* posters such as yourself. Your continued defamation doesn’t phase me.

  575. Chris says:

    harry, if you are so much smarter than us could you please provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox. A disease that put nine thousand in the hospital and caused a hundred deaths each year in the USA before 1995.

  576. Gray Falcon says:

    harry, listen very closely. It’s true, it took time and effort for Lyme disease to be accepted. However, there’s a reason for that. For every correct hypothesis, there are any number of incorrect hypotheses. What we’re trying to do is sort through them.

  577. Gray Falcon says:

    Here’s so more details more anyone wondering about harry’s gambit:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/21/the-galileo-gambit/

    They laughed at Copernicus. They laughed at the Wright brothers. Yes, well, they also laughed at the Marx Brothers. Being laughed at does not mean you are right.

  578. Gray Falcon says:

    The appropriate Carl Sagan quote:

    They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

  579. Chris says:

    harry could always continue his discussion on Lyme by going to Dr. Hymes’ blog (the link was in his name).

  580. dingo199 says:

    Gray Falcon :dingo: Don’t worry, harry made the first mention, in #462, where he tried to use it as an example of science moving forward. He failed, again, to realize why and how science moves forward.

    Ah, yes, I see.

  581. novalox says:

    @harry
    Your continuing hypocrisy in calling people names and libeling them, while at the same time complaining about imagined insults against you, would be truly humorous, if your appalling ignorance wasn’t on full display in all of your previous posts.
    So please, keep on posting, if only to show other people what a true case of D-K looks like, as it pertains to an anti-vaxxer. Why should I care what you think, since you havve been shown to be a liar who can only throw out insults and has little knowledge in actual science.
    Also, thank you for your admission that you have libeled people here, and that you owe all of the regulars here an apology. We’ll be waiting.

  582. zulu says:

    predjudici@l cen$or$hip – the provax comedians
    you really should use li(ha’s form, nova, to spare the mundane rhetoric of reading your la^^e comment over and over
    your posters are to ill-advi$ed to know that if it’s ‘true’, it ain’t libel

  583. Chris says:

    zulu, please review this sites comment’s policy:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    By the way, Ms. Parker, have you called that clinic yet? Please do it for your family. Thank you.

  584. Verianne says:

    Looks like the whole lot of ya should be banned based on the sites comments policy.
    *Personal attacks of any kind.

  585. Narad says:

    harry :
    Do you even know what monday morning quaterbacking means narad?

    My brain began filtering your tedious and clumsy football references with comment 352.

    I never said I didn’t remember. I also didn’t say that borreliosis didn’t exist before the 70′s. I said that Lyme disease was yet unknown. That is a fact.

    No, you said, “I’m old enough to remember when there was NO Lyme.”

    Or do you also deny that the spirochete was only named such in the 80′s as well?

    So what? The disease was recognized promptly when Murray got Steere’s attention in November 1975, which is why the January 1977 paper is entitled “Lyme Arthritis.” Do you have any idea how fast a turnaround that was for journals publishing in the 1970s? Mast & Burrows got one published in November 1976. The characteristic EM rash and swollen joints were plainly documented. It only took until 1981 to nail down the spirochete, and Burgdorfer was working for the NIH. So who, exactly, “poopooed” anything?

    Why did I bring up Lyme? Because apparently unlike the rest of you, I took the time to read Dr. Saul’s bio, and saw that he sees and Lyme in his practice. Consequently, I *logically* correlated the ridicule and disbelief of the early Lyme skeptics

    The existence of whom you haven’t demonstrated.

    to people like yourself {and perhaps Dr. Saul as well}, who frequently ridicule those who question the safety of some vaccines in certain individuals. I was *again* pointing out that science changes, and what may not be proven presently, and is scorned and laughed at, may be the model years later.

    See above.

    But keep on with your flawed monday am quarterbacking [trying to appear intelligent after the fact] and your own erred ‘noise and no signals’, because readers love when you arrogant ‘regular posters’ humiliate yourself with your obstinate ignorance.

    There was nothing “erred” about that description at all. You have contributed exactly nothing contentful, and that includes your failure to address the substance of what you’re putatively replying to here.

    novalox, I don’t desire respect from the ilk of the *regular* posters such as yourself. Your continued defamation doesn’t phase me.

    You apparently also need to learn what ‘defamation’ means and the difference between ‘phase’ and ‘faze’.

  586. Narad says:

    (The other mom was Judith Mensch, BTW.)

  587. novalox says:

    @zulu
    Yawn, was I supposed to be impressed or hurt by that insult? You should try harder, I think 5 year olds can post better insults.
    And I’m sure that your use of 1337-5p3@k really is supposed to wound me. You do know the adults are speaking here,
    But do try again, because I do need a good laugh.
    @verianne
    So, do please point out the personal attacks, especially since the anti-vax liars and the sockpeppeting trolls have engaged in using personal attacks so much instead of posting actual evidence. Why should they get a free pass?

  588. Narad says:

    Chris :
    Now, again, harry, why are you here? If the above article showing that chicken pox can kill an healthy child is wrong, then please present your scientifically verifiable evidence to the contrary.

    Addressing this and, inter alia, this might be a concrete place to start, given Ms. Parker’s assertion that “999,993 out of every 100,000 [sic] young infants recover from chickenpox just fine.” I’m not so sure that a hospitalization rate of 27.5 per 100,000 for infants really jibes with the results of any method of trying to extract sense from this assertion.

  589. Verianne says:

    novalox, I believe I said, “the whole lot of ya” and didn’t single out pro or anti vaccine comments. But thank you for proving my point any way.

  590. Chris says:

    Narad: “I’m not so sure that a hospitalization rate of 27.5 per 100,000 for infants really jibes with the results of any method of trying to extract sense from this assertion.”
    Thank you, Narad.
    Have a baby with chicken pox was horrible. She would shake here head from side to side, and was inconsolable. She had been sleeping through the night, but not when she was covered in dozens of irritating pox. I took to sleeping next to her just to comfort her during the night. I would never wish this experience on anyone, especially the baby.

  591. dingo199 says:

    And in other news, it looks like BCG vaccine might help avert multiple sclerosis.
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/aaon-cav112613.php
    Wonder what Ms Parker makes of that?

  592. zulu says:

    Aw! Hit a nerve narad? You know ‘ya failed badly when you need to run a full page ad in your attempt to remedy your faux pas.
    And while harry would love to respond to your feeble and *failed* endeavor above, you cowardly block anything you don’t want to hear. Wah! Poor babies!
    Faze/phase compared to your total grandiose spin of your deficient retreat narad? There was no Lyme yet. True! There was the spirochete. True! Because the professional ‘Lyme’ skeptics are unnamed doesn’t negate the fact that they existed. True! My point was *not* about who the mothers were. True!
    Unlike the ‘regular’ posters on this site, I’ve always gotten a good guffaw when you try to intimidate with libel, so I’m perfectly aware of what defamation means.
    In summary to your *reaching* and ambitious argumentation above, ‘yes Lyme disease was poopooed and *yes* you erred badly.
    Don’t forget your white flag on the way out.
    My apologies Verianne. Please see above why the former zulu began to intervene above. Along with libel and defamation, they also have no concept of civility here.
    And we’ve all witnessed this sites love of playing games with opposing posters.

  593. Gray Falcon says:

    zulu/harry, I get the feeling I’m reading an entirely different page than you are. Lyme disease’s history is irrelevant to this discussion, and besides, it doesn’t help your case at all. We’re not playing games, we’re asking for evidence. It was evidence, not bald assertions, that established the existence of Lyme disease.

  594. Narad says:

    zulu :
    Aw! Hit a nerve narad? You know ‘ya failed badly when you need to run a full page ad in your attempt to remedy your faux pas.

    Your word count in this discharge is in fact greater than mine was.

    Faze/phase compared to your total grandiose spin of your deficient retreat narad? There was no Lyme yet. True!

    There was no name “Lyme” attached. It is not too complicated to find the timeline presented in the work that the foregoing book review refers to.

    There was the spirochete. True! Because the professional ‘Lyme’ skeptics are unnamed doesn’t negate the fact that they existed. True! My point was *not* about who the mothers were. True!

    So you’re a sock for “harry”? OK. Show me the relevant “professional ‘Lyme’ skeptics.”

    Unlike the ‘regular’ posters on this site, I’ve always gotten a good guffaw when you try to intimidate with libel, so I’m perfectly aware of what defamation means.

    OK, so you’re not just a “harry” sock but a further one:

    And while harry would love to respond to your feeble and *failed* endeavor above, you cowardly block anything you don’t want to hear. Wah! Poor babies!

    Thanks.

  595. Narad says:

    I take the the foregoing unclosed blockquote won’t be too difficult to sort out.

  596. zulu says:

    ‘greater word count’ – hadn’t denied it – however my point didn’t span 2 pages
    were it not for such unjust and impartial censorship, one wouldn’t need to have multiple personas. – however, i’m not part of your sites popularly and cruelly disparaged ms. parker.
    stop blocking when we reply to your insults and snide remarks [many] and we could use our real names to respond. cowards – TRUE!
    ps. goody for you with your working quote button there – so yes, i’m accustomed to the block quotes on other forums, and when i was able to use my true ip, [before blocking] i also was able to utilize the blockquote feature here. -your talent of your aforementioned ‘blockquote ability’ is wasted on this site. – perhaps david letterman has an opening for you under ‘$tupid blockquoting tricks’ ’cause i’m *really* impressed.

  597. novalox says:

    @verianne
    Since when is asking for posts considered a personal attack? Of course, seeing you r posts and tone trolling is just another example of the anti-vax mindset.
    So please, keep on tone trolling, since you cannot bring any proof to the table.
    @zulu
    So you admit you are a sockie?
    Again, why would you bother with a sock puppet if you had any actual proof that your assertions were valid.
    And yawn, another whine on censorship. You do know that you can post here, but I cannot post my views on anti-vax sites. (although since you admitted that you were a sockpuppet of a banned user, your posting here under your sock puppet name will probably be limited)

  598. zulu says:

    i didn’t say i was banned, but some of my comments have been blocked, aka censored?!
    i would offer though, that opposing sites should allow what you do here, as long as it’s kept civil – that’s only fair if your statement is true
    however, neither do i post on anti vax sites. -i’m not anti vax, so haven’t used such sites yet, and hadn’t thought about doing so either
    my ordinary conversation, comment on personal stories, hypothesis, opinion, [unlike assertions, and claims as you say], hardly need backed up with ‘scientific’ evidence
    i’m quite aware that zulu may be blocked now as well, but i’m getting bored on here now that i know the only readers are you 5 ‘regular’ posters and the many voices of parker
    should i ever need a new sockie, i’ll just have to assume yet another id… shame though, with what all your site is able to dish out to dissenting posters without repercussion
    i know you missed me
    good night lax

  599. Gray Falcon says:

    zulu, science isn’t about opinions, it’s about facts. If you actually studied biology in college, you’d know that.

  600. Narad says:

    zulu :
    i didn’t say i was banned, but some of my comments have been blocked, aka censored?!

    Do you have any evidence of this, “?!”? I suppose that if one actually managed to attract enough attention to warrant something like this (which seems incredibly unlikely, given the proliferation of direct-injection comment spam), there would be something to point to, even if it were merely some sort of WordPress markup-bug oblivion. It’s not as though the tools to record one’s comments, whether they appear or not, don’t exist.

  601. Narad says:

    zulu :
    ‘greater word count’ – hadn’t denied it – however my point didn’t span 2 pages

    As I’m not using a phone, as you would seem to be, I can’t confirm whether your “point” spanned “2 pages” in a cross-platform setting.

  602. novalox says:

    @zulu
    I’ll repeat again, why would you use multiple sock puppets, since all it does it make you and your position look dishonest.

  603. zulu says:

    no you adorable junk yard dog- several personas shows your ‘less’ than honest censorship policy
    narad – “evidence of this?” ha, duh and huh! what’s *your* point and who fricken cares? are you the spammer police or the online tec support at ‘spammers R us’?

  604. Gray Falcon says:

    zulu/harry appears to have finally lost command of the English language. Not that he had much to begin with. When most people say “There was no such thing as X back then”, we mean “X did not exist back then”, not “we had no name for X”.

  605. novalox says:

    @zulu
    So then, could you point out some examples for your assertions?
    Interested minds would like to know.

  606. Narad says:

    zulu :
    i didn’t say i was banned, but some of my comments have been blocked, aka censored?!

    Ahem.

    And while harry would love to respond to your feeble and *failed* endeavor above, you cowardly block anything you don’t want to hear. Wah! Poor babies!

    So why don’t you post as “harry”? It’s not as though switching to “zulu” would do anything to affect this. Install Textarea Cache and start coughing up some screen shots, as you have no credibility at all otherwise.

  607. Lorna says:

    Dingo,
    About peanut oil adjuvants never being used in vaccines in the U.S.I thought this was interesting. On September 9, 1964, the New York Times in “Peanut Oil in New Vaccine: product patented by Merck said to extend immunity,” announced that a patent had just been given to Adjuvant 65-4, containing up to 65% peanut oil, Arlacel A, aluminum stearate, and other ingredients. CHOP in Philadelphia and Merck had been working on it for six years, and included it as an adjuvant in a flu vaccine in 1966. It was hoped that this oil-in-water emulsion would prove to be safer than the mineral oil adjuvants with added mycobacteria that had turned out to be very dangerous. Maurice Hilleman realized that Adjuvant 65-4 might turn out to be dangerous too, but it had so many advantages that he promoted its use. By 1974, it was licensed for general use in the U.K, but not in the U.S. as a stand-alone product, possibly because the Arlacel A caused tumors in mice. The policy of the U.S. was to approve adjuvants as they appeared in a complete vaccine formula, which meant that vaccine formulas were approved and patented with peanut oil adjuvants, but not with Adjuvant 65 as a stand-alone product. The challenge in adjuvant design was to gain potency while minimizing toxicity. Many doctors saw toxicity and allergenicity as inevitable and therefore acceptable compromises in vaccination goals. Although 65-4 wasn’t licensed for use in the U.S., it was a precedent cited in many vaccine patents using emulsified peanut-oil adjuvants. At that time, of course, they didn’t realize that their use in vaccines would lead to one in fifty American children developing allergy to peanut protein.

  608. Lawrence says:

    @Lorna – please provide actual proof that peanut oil was ever used as an adjuvant in even a single US vaccine…..

  609. zulu says:

    Narad – I owe you and your sheer lack of logic, nothing! Apparently you haven’t had your insulting replies [merely returned to the appropriate instigator] held by moderation post after post after post; until you’ve no choice but creating a new account, should you insist on retorting back to the schmuck who feels they’ve gotten one over on you, because suddenly it appears as if you’ve conceded and vanished. Enough said!
    Oh lax, you know that my sole purpose and only true assertion has remained unchanged since my very first post here.
    Right now my ‘underdog’ cape is at the cleaners novalox. However, it’ll be ready for the next sweet polly purebred…. er uh… I mean, innocent, unassuming poster who falls prey to the perils of tyranny and oppression in the name of ‘pubmedmoiselle and sir vaxemall’.
    If you and admin. would diligently and *fairly* police the one or two overzealous and *regular* troublemakers, as you so unjustly monitor posters you *assume* are all antivax when they fail to meet your cookie cutter standard, your site could be a valuable learning tool instead of the laughable hate site that it is.
    ooooo wah oooo wah ooooo
    speed of lightening
    roar of thunder
    world wide bullies
    he’ll encumber
    underdog….ahhh ahhh ahhhh underdog… underdog! 😉
    toodles preten$ious babie$

  610. zulu says:

    p.s. gotta’ run… but ll’till next time…. mwah!!! 😉

  611. Narad says:

    Lorna :
    Although 65-4 wasn’t licensed for use in the U.S., it was a precedent cited in many vaccine patents using emulsified peanut-oil adjuvants. At that time, of course, they didn’t realize that their use in vaccines would lead to one in fifty American children developing allergy to peanut protein.

    And waving at patents is all that Fraser, who you’re quoting, actually has. I don’t have an NYT subscription, but her characterization of a November 11, 1966, article, viz., “in 1966, Merck introduced this novel peanut oil additive to the public in a flu vaccine,” doesn’t seem to jibe with the actual lede.

  612. Chris says:

    See comment #568.
    Ms. Parker who is now using a Lorna and Lornaida Sock Puppet, have you called that clinic yet? Please do it, if not for your but for your family.

  613. Lawrence says:

    @Ms Parker – I second Chris, once again, please get help.

  614. Joe says:

    Chris and Lawrence, still attacking people I see. Some things never change.

  615. Lawrence says:

    @Joe – when does pointing out that someone, who is obviously in some kind of trouble, should seek help, an attack?
    I will point out what has been said about several posters here, myself included, that are straight up character assassinations….perhaps you apply a double-standard, yes?

  616. Narad says:

    zulu :
    Narad – I owe you and your sheer lack of logic, nothing!

    Nor are you owed any presumption of accurate reporting or truthfulness at this point.

    Apparently you haven’t had your insulting replies [merely returned to the appropriate instigator] held by moderation post after post after post

    If I am someplace where I think perfectly reasonable comments might be moderated into the bit bucket, I take a screen shot beforehand rather than merely going into hysterics or posting over and over and over again.

    until you’ve no choice but creating a new account, should you insist on retorting back to the schmuck who feels they’ve gotten one over on you, because suddenly it appears as if you’ve conceded and vanished. Enough said!

    Given the sum total of your comments here, I guess I oughtn’t to be surprised that the choice of coming up with something better than poorly constructed and, should anyone care to revisit your very first entry (which you were never able to coherently defend), misplaced insults didn’t cross your mind.

  617. zulu says:

    fail narad… one of my very first comments was ‘sorry, i don’t speak pretentiou$’ -i also don’t play their games, so am completely uninterested in yours – and i certainly don’t need to defend my initial post to you. -but goody for you and your new fangled computer techniques… does it make you make you feel smart, knowing you can take screen shots?
    chri$… please do yourself, your family and sop READERS a favor and call the clinic nearest you asap. – you clearly need help, and you’re fooling no one with your pointless facade in your attempt to cover your blatant bullying and humiliation of ms. parker and her troubles. – shamefully shallow -please please chris…. stop thIs patronizing spectacle – you’re only deluding yourself with your embarrassing ruse. – if you don’t do it for your family, please at least do it for us… and spare us not only from your pubmed hel1, but also from this superficial act of contrition. -we are here for *you* chri$ and will stand by until you get the help you need

  618. novalox says:

    @zulu
    Since you seem incapable of actually putting up the posts which you say were “censored”, we have to assume that either you are lying about the posts in the first place, or your posts were actually in violation of posting rules.
    And again, why would you keep whining about censorship if you cannot read the rules? You keep making accusations, but have not once pointed out any such violations.
    Alsom considering your continued use of childish insults and ad hominems, why should anyone be surprised that your first sock puppet got banned.

  619. zulu says:

    I wasn’t banned. Your double standard for rules are quite clear though. You use one set of rules for those who share *your* pov, and another set for those who don’t.
    And still you lack the understanding of ad hominems lax. I merely reflected (hris’s use of another one of your favorite misused words, ‘ad hominem’, as she relentlessly continues to discredit Ms. P_arker, for the sake of the argument, which P_arker participates in. *That* is ad hominem. I do NOT play your pubmed games and you all know that.
    A fragile person was harmed over and over for (hris’s smug ego, and you still feel I’m a bad guy while (hris walks away without remorse or reprimand.
    You warn posters not to disparage those with sensitive and delicate cognitive issues, and you claim you help such individuals where you volunteer. Well I worked with the challenged in my career too, and you can’t tell me what sop allows (hris to get away with is appropriate, and behavior becoming to a site that promotes a pov predominantly to parents of young children.
    I am very very upset about her abuse of Ms. P_arker and others, and if I knew I wouldn’t get blocked, she’d feel my *full* wra+h. But really, this whole site is often painful to read, with it’s predilection for hateful and demeaning comments.
    It’s also so very sad that (hris continues to publicly humiliate Ms. P_arker, while exploiting the *guilt* factor in her apparent condemning assertions that Ms. Par_ker harmed her own child… and “that type of guilt must be tortuous”, she writes. And now the patronizing blurb at the end of each comment to Par_ker… “and please get help, at least for your family”. Had (hris *really* cared, she’d have found a way to contact Par_ker privately to urge her to get help. But she was ALL about it being a very ‘public humiliation’.
    Just so you know, I’ve had no less than 20 comments intercepted by this site. Where do they go when admin. attaches a note to your post saying, ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’, and then it sits in cyber space for eternity? Call it what you will; blocking, banning, etc. I call it censorship and had it not been for such, I’d *still* be going by licha.

  620. Gray Falcon says:

    zulu/harry, Cia diagnosed her child with encephalitis based on the fact that the he was crying all night, and made no effort to take the child to the doctor. At best, she is grossly incompetent and negligent. We’re trying to make her feel guilty because she is guilty.
    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/08/22/the-makings-of-a-vaccine-advocate/#comment-13337

  621. novalox says:

    @zulu
    Since you cannot provide any proof for your assertions, we can assume that you keep making up stuff.
    Summarily, we can dismiss anything you say as hogwash.
    Also, we’re still waiting for you to show examples of abuse here, because the only abuse seems to be coming from you, with your continuous use of insults and ad hominems.

  622. Gray Falcon says:

    @zulu- None of that changes the fact that she:
    A) Mistook normal infant behavior for a life-threatening conditition.
    B) Did not act when she believed her child had a life-threatening condition.
    One does not need to be an automotive engineer to know that a car that fails to stop when the brakes are applied is badly made. Likewise, one does not need to be a parent to recognize incompetent parenting.

  623. dingo199 says:

    Just to recap on the Parker story, as told in her own words some time ago on this very blog (with my comments about her claims edited in):
    Cia Parker vaccine story
    https://shotofprevention.com/2011/11/29/its-not-cool-for-kids-to-skip-shots-but-go-to-school/#comment-26268

    Ultimately it is up to the parents to decide if they want to take a chance on damagiing their child for life or believing what the medical industry says and going with the recommended vaccine program. I just read a letter yesterday from a mother who said she had a friend who was a vaccine refuser, and she thought she was wacko and was endangering her children by not getting them vaccinated. But then her own child reacted to a vaccine with autism and other disabilities, and she says that now the joke’s on her, her friend’s children are healthy while hers is permanently disabled.
    Most scientists are not busily engaged in figuring out how to differentiate coincidental occurences related to vaccines from causal ones: there’s too much money involved for Big Pharma. Have you read Patti White’s testimony before the sub-congressional committee on the (lack of) safety of the hepatitis-B vaccine in May 1999? She is a Missouri school nurse who said she and the other nurses in her association started out in the early ’90s believing in the value and safety of the hepatitis-B vaccine, but became convinced by the late ’90s that it was responsible for the huge surge in autism cases in Missouri at that time, when the post-’91 babies hit kindergarten. The committee found that the vaccine was so dangerous that it recommended that a moratorium be placed on its use. So why did it continue to be given to all newborns? I had been tested and was negative for hep-B. My baby was at no risk at all of contracting it. Any protection offered by the vaccine lasts less than five years, long before the child becomes sexually active or uses illegal drugs.
    [Protection is actually very durable, possibly life long, and paediatric transmission of Hep B is much commoner than people realise]
    They gave it to my newborn in May 2000 without even asking permission, and she reacted with encephalitis.
    [Only according to Ms Parker. This diagnosis was made by her. Apparently a doctor she later told about her child’s crying suggested it was colic]
    It is not true that colic is common in newborns: colic follows a rule of three, it doesn’t start before the third week, it lasts for at least three hours a day, and it ends by three months of age. If you want to redefine it and say it occurs in newborns, that is an excellent way to cloak the encephalitic crying of newborns when they react to the hep-B vaccine.
    [Neonatal colic (ie within the first 2 weeks) is a well described clinical phenomenon in the textbooks and medical literature]
    My baby screamed in my arms all night every night for four nights from four to eight days old (well, my mother came in in the middle of the night on two of those nights to relieve me). My baby crashed into an exhausted sleep for two hours at dawn, then woke to scream again. She lost one pound two ounces between Tuesday, May 9, and Thursday, May 11.
    [My own newborn was extremely irritable and lost weight to the point he needed nasogastric feeding. These things happen, some babies have very fraught and distressing neonatal periods for a variety of reasons. I didn’t blame a vaccine, or Vitamin K, or the colour of the midwife’s apron]
    Colic does not interfere with feeding, encephalitis does.
    [This is a generalisation. Colic often does interfere with feeding. True encephalitis will likely interfere with feeding, but then so will numerous other things that newborns have to deal with]
    Babies with encephalitis are in too much pain to eat, and either lose weight or die. My baby stopped the encephalitic screaming on Saturday, and after that throve, ate well, gained back the weight lost those two days (over one pound in two days is more than the accepted normal weight loss after birth), but the brain damage was done, and at twenty months old, she was diagnosed with suspected autism, later confirmed.
    [The story given by Ms Parker elsewhere describes how her child was developing normally until after one of the DTaP vaccines, when she lost her speech. The entire narrative is not consistent with a child who suffered neurological damage from encephalitis during the neonatal period. The diagnosis of “encephalitis” is entirely fabricated and is not based upon any medical opinion or investigation, but what Ms Parker has erroneously concluded her child suffered from in the week after she was born]
    How dare you say that they would not have given my baby the hep-B vaccine without my permission? They should not have done, but they did, and it was routine for them to do so. I went to Dr. Douglas Boudreau in Jefferson, City, Missouri, in April 2000, just to tell him it was very important to me that she not get that vaccine, as I had read it often caused autism. He agreed, though he thought it was a needless worry.
    [Ahh, I see…So Ms Parker was already blaming Hepatitis B vaccine for causing autism, even before her own child received vaccine]
    He forgot to tell the staff at the hospital, Capital Region Medical Center in Jefferson City, and when my baby was born May 5, 2000, they gave her the vaccine without asking me. When the nurse came in and told me, and I reacted in shock, she said disapprovingly, “Oh, don’t worry, she won’t be protected against hepatitis B until she gets the whole series.” Dr. Boudreau came in later that day and apologized for having forgotten to tell them I didn’t want it. And she reacted just as I had feared. No one asked me if there were a history of vaccine reaction or neurological or autoimmune disease in my family (there is).
    [Reactions to hepatitis B vaccine are no commoner in those with a family history of “neurological or autoimmune disease]
    No one gave me a list of vaccine reactions to look out for. Please feel free to contact these sources and I’ll give you a release if you want to ask them to show you a permission form I signed. There is none, but you can ask.
    [If this narrative really did play out as described, then I would have expected any reasonably competent and caring mother to have taken her “screaming, encephalitic” baby back to the hospital immediately she became concerned about its health. Instead we are to believe that this mother, who already was primed to blame vaccines for causing brain damage, sat at home for 4 days with a desperately ill, neurologically damaged child just one week after her baby had got the very vaccine that she said could cause brain damage, and never sought medical help? We are also asked to believe that no claims for negligence or compensation were made against Dr Boudreau by Ms Parker, despite her express wish that her child should not be vaccinated, yet was given vaccine in what could only be described as an instance of gross medical negligence?]
    To blithely say that many babies have long-lasting, inconsolable crying is the height of irresponsibility. The Merck Manual defines encephalitis as being a possible result of vaccines. High-pitched, inconsolable crying (le cri encéphalique) lasting three hours or more is a symptom of encephalitis.
    It may be, but that doesn’t mean every baby that cries inconsolably has encephalitis. The rational explanation is that some other factor was responsible.
    Dr. Robert Sears says that encephalitis is a not uncommon reaction to vaccines, but that it doesn’t usually do permanent damage.
    [He is wrong. It is extremely rare. And true encephalitis usually causes permanent harm. So he is doubly wrong]
    Unfortunately, sometimes it does, and it often causes autism.
    [again, no it does not]
    My baby cried all night and all day, ten hours in a row before sleeping for two hours, then waking to cry again, same pattern from Tuesday evening, May 9 (she was born at dawn, May 5) to Saturday afternoon, May 13. To say, lah-dee-dah, that’s babies for you, cry, cry, cry, who cares? shows that your desire to defend vaccines is so all-consuming that you have lost all concern for the children involved. Shouldn’t you even say that the pediatrician should have ordered a brain scan to look for swelling? Or do you just want people to look away from the causes of autism?
    This was routine, to give the hep-B vaccine without asking permission. Judy Converse’s baby reacted with encephalitis just as my baby did, and she didn’t realize for months that they had given the hep-B vaccine to her baby without asking permission.

    I am very sorry Ms Parker and her baby had such a bad time following the birth. But to blame the Hepatitis B vaccine for this is highly improbable, and saying that “encephalitis” resulted is medically implausible. If the story is true as described, it reveals significant major lapses in maternal care. No doubt if Ms Parker reads this, she will suddenly recall details that attempt to disguise the gaping holes that exist in her story.

  624. dingo199 says:

    It is also interesting to note what Ms Parker said this week over at the Age of Autism Antivaccine site.

    “I just don’t understand people’s reluctance to understand that all vaccines are dangerous and all of them do some damage to everyone who gets them.”

    So there you have it. ALL vaccines are dangerous, and they ALL do damage to everyone.
    Couldn’t be clearer as to what Ms Parker thinks, despite having masses of evidence shown to her over the last few years that indicate the opposite.
    Nothing will change her view.

  625. Christine Vara says:

    As an admin on this blog I must take responsibility for the derailment of these comments. Anyone who reads this blog knows that we are extremely tolerant, which basically means that we very rarely moderate comments. This is basically because we expect that people will act responsibly. This has been our policy from day 1. We believe that open discourse allows for a full examination of evidence. Unfortunately, time and again, commenters get frustrated and sometimes even become hostile when they repeatedly ignore others request for evidence.
    To clarify, if a commenter receives a “pending moderation” comment, it is because the WordPress system identified something in the post that was of concern (sometimes it is a name, word or link) and sometimes it’s very random. Once the comment is held in moderation and admin must review it before it can be released. When time permits these comments are reviewed; some approved, some disgarded. However, there are plenty of glitches in the system and this doesn’t always happen in a timely fashion.
    Unfortunately, over the course of the past several years, there have been a few cases when someone’s been repeatedly abusive or disruptive and we have decided to remove them from the conversation here. When they return, under a different account and/or name as they often do, the system typically identifies them and hence their comments begin to fall into moderation. Zulu (who has also gone by Harry, Sharon, Peter M and Timothy) is just one example. Often times it appears that they take on several names to suggest that there are others that agree with their point of view. This is deceptive and immature and will not be tolerated.
    As has always been our intent, everyone is welcomed to participate in this discussion. For anyone to suggest that we moderate based on a person’s view of vaccines is completely mistaken and easily disproven. However, we do ask that people try to keep to the subject at hand, refrain from personal attacks and provide evidence of their assertions so that others can evaluate the information and we can all attempt to learn from one another.
    If you should be unable to conduct yourself in this matter, please don’t carry on about your comments being moderated. If anyone should have any input regarding ways in which you feel we can improve the dialogue on this blog, feel free to email them to shotofprevention@gmail.com. We are interested in hearing your feedback and we appreciate your participation and continued interest on the topic of immunizations.

  626. Gray Falcon says:

    I’m guessing that makes licha/Harry/zulu Joe as well. That makes sense, he has a remarkable ability to read entirely different meanings into other peoples’ words. In our first conversation, he claimed a specific diet helped his son’s autism improved. I asked if he had any evidence that his son’s improvement wasn’t due to natural progress. His response, I kid you not: “do I have proof that eating healthy every day is healthy?” I never made any suggestion otherwise.
    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/08/22/the-makings-of-a-vaccine-advocate/#comment-13636
    There’s a distinct possibility that he also posted under the name “Jason” who asked “Chris, please provide a citation that demonstrates that diseases cause more injuries than vaccines.” When presented with abundant evidence to that point, all he did was simply shut his eyes and pretend it didn’t exist.
    https://shotofprevention.com/2013/07/02/revolutionizing-the-vaccine-cold-chain/#comment-30221
    The point of this: I’m not entirely sure he even understands the concept of having an honest discussion.

  627. Joe says:

    Gray, thanks for the link above. I had forgotten about all of your funny comments. Like this one, “Those “baseless lies” were direct quotes from the case against her. Now tell me, why do you worship Satan?” You have some dandies, I especially like the ones when you talk about Witch Craft, flat world, and leeches.

  628. Gray Falcon says:

    For those who are wondering, that was in direct response to his statement: “Everyone but you, and those who are brainwashed enough to support your trade. Who pays you?” In retrospect, I should have been somewhat less flippant about it.

  629. Joe says:

    Dingo, so you are saying a reaction to a vaccine can’t cause encephalitis? Please provide your proof on this assertion. And CIA is right, vaccines do damage the human body. While some may help with prevention of disease, they are also bad for the human body, same as any medication you take.

  630. Joe says:

    Gray, please show me where I ever made that statement.

  631. Gray Falcon says:

    Joe :
    Dingo, so you are saying a reaction to a vaccine can’t cause encephalitis? Please provide your proof on this assertion. And CIA is right, vaccines do damage the human body. While some may help with prevention of disease, they are also bad for the human body, same as any medication you take.

    Obviously, dingo never said anything of the sort, and in fact, said the exact opposite. Why Joe thinks he can get away with this on a forum where people can see previous posts by scrolling upwards is best left to psychologists.
    Likewise, he sees nothing wrong with making ludicrous assertions, and has no idea why he doesn’t need to back them up.
    Joe is right about one thing, that was Lowell’s statement. He’s had so many usernames I automatically assumed it was him. Nonetheless, a direct act of libel was less important to him than my response.
    Perhaps an outright IP ban is in order for Joe. He clearly cannot contribute to any conversation in an honest manner.

  632. zulu says:

    You are wrong Christine Vera. I’m not the other personas you claim. I’m neither Sharon, Peter, or Timothy, so please do your fact checking, as your *regulars* demand, before publically making such false claims.
    I assume you mean, “should we not be able to conduct ourselves in this manner”, to which I’d respond that you *discard* that which goes against your regular posters, and submit any remark which may have been flagged for *them* by wordpress, however inappropriate. Case in point, is the disparaging comments all over this site, that seem to *fly* by wordpress, but when I mention Kaylynne and her history, without an unkind word to any *regular*, it was continually *discarded*.
    So the censorship still lays with those who repeatedly ‘DISCARD’ what they don’t want readers to see; the admin.
    My very last comment to falcon should have been 656 in place of novalox. Where is it Christine? It’s apparent that falcon responds to my query of his ever having raised children of his own, and even *answers* me in 657. So where is my reply to falcon’s 655, as it appears that he was able to *read* it? It went on to say that his gross misconduct was no better than his partner in crime’s behavior. I ended with ‘anyone who would support Chris’s constant abuse of public humiliation of one who is clearly suffering, instead of suggesting that it’s in very bad form, and to stop the harassment, is guilty of the same acrimony’.
    You also missed my post Christine, where I state I would have *never* had to change my screen name from licha, had you not been consistently *discarding* my comments. This was just before christmas, and again, I was merely adding to the ‘undetermined cause of death’ in the history of Kaylynne’s circumstance. So you are *also* wrong about your claim that I’ve used sock puppets to unfairly promote my pov. While I can’t speak for others, I certainly don’t engage in such foolish games. As I’ve also offered several times, in a few of my personas, I definitely have such confidence in myself and the research leading to my povs, that I would hardly need to create ‘sockies’ to try to promote it. I don’t really care what others think or do, as long as they don’t push it on everyone else or bully the weak.
    Do you know how many times I waited for admin. to *fairly* intervene and admonish Chris? And who closed the comments in yet *another* article which got completely out of hand?
    It is such a shame, I agree, when the article gets lost in hate and verbal assault. But you as admin. Christine, allow this barrage against my calling into question, the immoral behavior on this site, to stand, while my reply to falcon is again put on the shelf, or *discarded* as you call it.
    There’s been a black eye on this site for some time, as the *regulars* [as they call themselves], have gone ‘unchecked’ while they consistently and childishly call posters LIARS. Then they even have the nerve to *further* LIE themselves, by claiming “since you admit to lying, you also admit that vaccines are safe”. Your readers can see the attacks above, which still in very poor taste, you allow to remain. Falcon’s relentless remarks are shameful, as is dingo’s need to get in to twist the knife. But just keep telling yourself that there’s no prejudicial censorship here Christine.
    The disparagement of Ms. Parker was the last straw, and clearly shows the animosity that this site allows on a daily basis.
    This site owes Ms. Parker a huge apology for such poor behavior and blatant deviation from gracious protocol.

  633. zulu says:

    Joe Harris – it IS you… missed ya… thanks for coming to the party
    love licha <3

  634. zulu says:

    To bad I don’t know how to do screen shots, as narad suggested. My 656 is being ‘held in moderation’…. lucky YOU falcon…. and novalox is 657 in my line up.
    Wanna’ talk some more about BIASED censorship and the need for dummy screen names?

  635. zulu says:

    p.s. while i DID have some choice words for falcon, insults aside, i had also shared this; which i felt readers may want to see in parker’s behalf. 529 and 535 above…donna and kyra respond to chris’s assertions

  636. Joe says:

    Gray,
    Here is dingo’s exact quote, “I am very sorry Ms Parker and her baby had such a bad time following the birth. But to blame the Hepatitis B vaccine for this is highly improbable, and saying that “encephalitis” resulted is medically implausible.”
    Now tell me again how dingo said the complete opposite?
    I will accept your apology for misquoting me I know you were only doing it because your were embarrassed by your Satan comment.

  637. Joe says:

    Hello Licha, hope all is well!

  638. Gray Falcon says:

    Once again, Joe demonstrates my point. dingo listed the exact vaccine, and said “improbable” and “implausible”, which mean an entirely different thing than “impossible”.
    Also, Christine can see IP addresses, among other things. He can’t pretend he’s two different people, especially since they have identical vocabulary and techniques.

  639. Joe says:

    Gray, you’re really not on your game today. Here is the definition: Implausible: not believable or realistic : not plausible.
    And you lost me on the two different people thing? I don’t claim to be anybody but me. Care to explain your delusional thinking?

  640. Gray Falcon says:

    Implausible: A large heavier-than-air object flying at supersonic speeds under its own power.
    Impossible: Flying by sheer force of will.
    There is a difference.
    Also, how did licha know Joe’s last name? There are millions of people named Joe.

  641. Joe says:

    First of all that isn’t my last name, but I still don’t know what your point is? Are you stating that you think Licha and myself are the same person? I’m still not following you.
    Gray, once and for all, here is what dingo said,
    “and saying that “encephalitis” resulted is medically implausible.”
    And here was my response,
    “Dingo, so you are saying a reaction to a vaccine can’t cause encephalitis?”
    Gray, do you see how I asked him a question? And when dingo says “implausible” he means not believable, not very realistic.
    You really are slipping Gray.

  642. Gray Falcon says:

    zulu :
    Joe Harris – it IS you… missed ya… thanks for coming to the party
    love licha <3

    Behold, Exhibit A.
    Oh, and here’s Exhibit B:
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120521125517AATnIHH
    Finally, both “Joe” and “zulu” demonstrate a remarkable talent for assuming the motives of readers. Note comments 585 and 671.
    If they are two different people, they are both equally horrible human beings.

  643. Joe says:

    Gray, I think you are the one who needs help here. I never said that implausible means impossible. You are doing the exact thing that you are accusing me of doing. How ironic.

  644. Joe says:

    And I assure that Licha and myself are two entirely different people.
    I still haven’t received your apology for your misquote. Maybe you are the horrible person, you make a mistake and don’t apologize and instead go on attacking.

  645. Gray Falcon says:

    Joe :
    Dingo, so you are saying a reaction to a vaccine can’t cause encephalitis? Please provide your proof on this assertion.

    So yes, Joe did say dingo said it was impossible.
    By the way, I strongly suspect some projection of motives on Joe’s part. Note how he’s not said anything about the obvious lies I brought up in 661, or that he deliberately ignored a deliberate act of malicious libel to get a jab at me, or talked about death by chickenpox to nitpick on words. Clearly, we need to do something about him.

  646. Joe says:

    Dingo, where did I say impossible? Looks like I asked dingo a question that dingo can answer for her/himself.
    Still no apology Gray?
    Motives? You are killing me. I ignored most of 661 as I have no idea what you are talking about. Death by Chicken Pox? What in the world are you talking about Gray?
    This is one pathetic conversation we are having here.

  647. zulu says:

    Calm down falcon. Licha, nasik, harry and zulu are NOT Joe. As stated in zulu’s note to Ms. Vera, licha, et al, hardly need to create alternate imaginary personas to purport their/my pov.
    I saw the name Joe, but hadn’t correlated it, since it’s such a common name. When I saw the talk of satan, I assumed it was Joe Harris, whom you and yours called a goat herder and baal worshiper.
    You really *do* need help though falcon, along with Chris. You two and a few others, have certainly contributed to this site’s deterioration.
    Sorry you got accused of being me Joe. This whole site is one paranoid mess, which could have been easily avoided with fair censorship protocol.

  648. Gray Falcon says:

    Read the article. It’s about death by chickenpox. Perhaps we should have a fair censorship protocol: Anyone who tries to lead the conversation away from the article’s topic should have their post removed.
    Also, since Joe never said where I misquoted anyone, and since I never did, I have nothing to apologize for.
    Any further posts not on the topic of vaccination in general will be ignored save for pointing out the non sequiter, something I should have done ages ago.

  649. Joe says:

    Gray, here is what you said after you misquoted me, “Joe is right about one thing, that was Lowell’s statement.”
    And now you say you never misquoted me?
    People getting off topic? You mean as you and dingo digging up all of the old comments that CIA has made? That kind of off topic?

  650. Joe says:

    licha, I don’t mind be confused of being you. I was just clarifying to Gray that we are different people. I think your points and the way you handle yourself here is commendable. I stopped commenting here long ago because it isn’t healthy and I see some things never change.
    So Gray has pulled out Satan with another Joe here huh? I think Gray is not having a good day today.

  651. Gray Falcon says:

    Since Joe decided he has nothing to say about vaccines, and has provided no evidence that they cause harm, I will conclude that he has conceded that they are safe and effective.

  652. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – respect is certainly earned & should not be expected….All we have asked, since day one, is that people provide actual, verifiable evidence to back up the various claims that they have made (to support whatever current set of accusations against vaccines that have been utilized by the sock-puppet brigade).
    The current crop of posters (whether it be a single person or maybe two) have uniformly refused (outright refused even) to provide even a single scrap of evidence to support their accusations & have instead resorted to all kinds of direct and personal attacks (completely off-topic as well).
    As to the topic, it remains foolish to continue to claim that these vaccine-preventable diseases are “mild” or should be not a concern, when we know, for a fact, that children (and people) do still die from them & suffer various serious side-effects and complications on a regular basis.
    On the other side, vaccines have been proven – through decades of research and utilization, to be very safe, very effective, and result in serious reactions in only a very small number of cases.
    The beneficial effects of vaccines can be found tabulated here:
    http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/
    Various Vaccine Safety Studies can be found here:
    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
    If anyone has anything to actual refute this information, as in – hard facts, studies, research, etc., as opposed to conjecture or calls of “conflict of interest” etc, please feel free to post it.
    I will take any personal attack against myself for posting this as acceptance of the evidence provide, and ample evidence that those posters have no real information of their own to provide for review.

  653. Gray Falcon says:

    @Lawrence- I’ve been playing their game far too long. Scientific truth isn’t determined by character, it’s determined by evidence. We’ve gone pretty far on that principle, I see no reason to abandon it now.

  654. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – agreed – it is about the evidence, what we know, and the facts….we have done nothing but present what is available and verified to show that our positions can be supported…..on the other hand, we have seen nothing but baseless accusations, personal insults, and evidence-less anecdotes (which fly in the face of all available real evidence).

  655. Joe says:

    Just ignoring the apology Gray? You seem to go silent about things after you have been proven a liar.

  656. Gray Falcon says:

    No more games, Joe. Talk about the evidence or don’t talk at all. Those are the only options.

  657. Joe says:

    I thought that would be your answer. So when you lie and you are in the wrong, suddenly you aren’t talking about it any more? Very convenient. This truly shows your character, which isn’t a surprise to me, but I am glad you admit it for all to see.

  658. Gray Falcon says:

    It doesn’t change the fact that vaccines save lives. That is all that matters here. You’re the only one trying to distract from anything. Why haven’t you provided us with any evidence?

  659. novalox says:

    @joe
    Where’s your evidence? The fact that you continue to rant and rave without providing any evidence says a lot about your position.

  660. Gray Falcon says: