Home > Expert Insights, Policy, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research > Less Than Perfect Vaccine Better Than None At All

Less Than Perfect Vaccine Better Than None At All

I’m a glass-half-full kind of person.  That’s why it’s frustrating to hear people reject vaccines on account of the fact that they aren’t “perfect”.

The fact remains that nothing (as far as I know) is perfect.  And when it comes to vaccines, there will always be those who argue that they aren’t worth getting if they aren’t 100% guaranteed safe or effective.

IStrive-for-Progress-Not-Perfectiont’s true that being vaccinated doesn’t ensure immunity, and there are times when a vaccinated person can still fall victim to the disease that they have been vaccinated for.  Additionally, there have been documented instances when a vaccine has triggered an adverse event that has resulted in unintended harm.  However, statistics show that it’s far more likely that a vaccine will be effective at preventing disease than not, and that millions upon millions of vaccines are administered without any serious adverse side effects.

While I accept that vaccines are not perfect, I’m still grateful that they are so widely used and accepted.  The fact that no one can guarantee 100% safety or efficacy doesn’t mean vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.  As with all other medical interventions, accepting vaccination is a matter of evaluating the relative risk and benefit.

First, we need to understand the dangers of the diseases we vaccinate for.  Knowing that these diseases can cause permanent health problems, hospitalizations and in some cases even death is essential to understanding that the diseases themselves are far more dangerous than the vaccines.   There is an abundance of scientific evidence that proves that vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of disease.  And, as we continually evaluate the safety and effectiveness of vaccines, experts analyze new and ever-changing data and use it to improve vaccination policies and protocols.

Take for instance the pertussis vaccine and the past and present research that has helped to evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this vaccine over the years.

In a nutshell, concern about the pertussis vaccine began years ago.  When adverse events were being reported that concerned the public and threatened to undermine parental confidence in vaccines, a new acellular version of the pertussis vaccine was developed to replace the older whole-cell version of the vaccine.  It was believed that this new vaccine would reduce the risk of adverse events, since it contained significantly less antigens, which are the components in the vaccine that help elicit the immune response.  In fact, the new acellular vaccine had as little as three to five antigens compared to the older vaccine which contained between 2,000 to 3,000 antigens.

While the risk of adverse events may have been reduced with the introduction of a new vaccine, years later we are now seeing a rise in the number of pertussis cases which has sparked research into the efficacy of the new acellular pertussis vaccine.   Just this week,  a new Pediatrics study confirmed that the increase in whooping cough cases in the United States could be attributed to the introduction of the acellular vaccine as a replacement for the whole cell pertussis vaccine. The findings confirmed that the older whole cell vaccine for whooping cough, which was phased out in the late 1990s, was more effective than the current acellular vaccine.

Tara Haelle’s recent article in Scientific American discusses the study in great detail and suggests that there is now

“more precise evidence that the earlier pertussis vaccine was superior to the current one, building on previous research that had already shown that the newer vaccine’s effectiveness wanes sooner than expected.”

Not only does this article summarize the background concerns with the whole-cell pertussis vaccine, but it also addresses the steps that are being taken to address policy changes in light of the waning immunity observed with the acellular vaccine.

The article, entitled “Shooting the Wheeze”, quotes Dr. Paul Offit as saying,

“The bright side is that this vaccine is much safer, but the price you pay is that you traded efficacy for safety.  The surprise is how big that trade was, which I don’t think anyone anticipated.”

Vaccines may not be perfect.   But, as Dr. Offit’s comments suggest, they are a constant work in progress.  This ongoing critical analysis of the pertussis vaccine demonstrates how today’s challenges will hopefully lead us to tomorrow’s solutions.

In response to the recent studies on pertussis, we can expect there will be discussion regarding new immunization policies to help prevent gaps in pertussis immunity. In fact, there are plans to discuss pertussis epidemiology at an upcoming meeting of the National Vaccine Advisory Committee meeting in June.  And it’s even probable that, in time, scientific developments and ongoing research will lead to a new and more effective pertussis vaccine.   That is, of course, the goal.  While scientists may never achieve 100% perfection in any vaccine, it is still something they strive for.

In the meantime, it’s important to emphasize that the current vaccine is the best available and even if it’s not perfect, it’s still an important preventive measure that can significantly reduce one’s risk of pertussis.  If nothing else, we must continue to educate the public that pertussis immunity does wane, that booster shots are needed to maintain protection through both our adolescent and adult years and that cocooning infants by immunizing those around them will provide them with the best possible protection.

  1. Amit Sumar
    May 24, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    “Just this week, a new Pediatrics study confirmed that the increase in whooping cough cases in the United States could be attributed to the introduction of the acellular vaccine as a replacement for the whole cell pertussis vaccine. The findings confirmed that the older whole cell vaccine for whooping cough, which was phased out in the late 1990s, was more effective than the current acellular vaccine.”

    Not an effective vaccine, so not worth the risk of injury by getting it.

    Like

  2. May 24, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    @Amit – and what are those odds again?

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/dtap/dtapindex.html

    Like

  3. May 24, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    There is a good chance that wearing a seatbelt, in an accident, will cause some sort of injury – but, of course, it will prevent ejection from a vehicle, serious injury or death….but, I guess you’d prefer not wearing a seatbelt, just to be on the safe side, right?

    Like

  4. May 24, 2013 at 5:40 pm
  5. dingo199
    May 24, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Amit Sumar :
    Not an effective vaccine, so not worth the risk of injury by getting it.

    Amit, you neatly demonstrate the Nirvana fallacy that is the topic of Christine’s article – Congratulations!

    PS; Even giving the “ineffective” acellular pertussis vaccine means your kids are 23 times LESS likely to get pertussis than if they are unvaccinated.
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/6/1446.full

    Considering that pertussis is relatively common, and often a killer, you’d think that only someone who is completely brain dead would risk forgoing the vaccine for their kids. But then it takes all types, and you can’t legislate against burning stupidity.

    Like

  6. K.
    May 25, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Citation for pertussis being often a killer, Dingo? Last year in the US (I don’t know how many in Australia), there were 32,000 diagnosed cases of pertussis, far more undiagnosed, and only 18 deaths, as far as I know all of newborns, who are the most vulnerable group as their airways and immune systems haven’t developed much yet. Possibly as many as 85% of those who got it had been appropriately vaccinated, but got it anyway. Subtract 18 from 32,000 and you’ll see that that doesn’t make pertussis often a killer. Rates in Third World countries don’t count, as most of their disease burden is attributable to overcrowding and undernourishment.

    I agree with Amit. My daughter lost the words she was saying at 18 months as soon as she got the DTaP booster at that time, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. There are very few doctors who are going to tell you that autism, allergies, asthma, seizure disorders, and SIDS are possible, not uncommon side effects of this vaccine, and even fewer who, when he diagnosed your child with asthma or autism, will say, Hmmm, it was probably from the shots I gave him several months ago.

    The whole-cell vaccine was much more effective, and also much more dangerous. As infants, after getting the DPT vaccine I screamed nonstop for several days and my brother beat his head against the bars of the crib. Many babies developed physical or mental disabilities from it, and many died. The acellular version used now is much less effective, while still being very dangerous. They say that it causes fewer mild reactions, but just as many severe ones. Vaccine failures occur with such frequency that they are recommending that boosters be given more and more often, as often as every three years, and a lot of vaccinated people still get the disease anyway.

    Pertussis is very rarely dangerous for those over a few months old. My (vaccinated) daughter and I both had it when she was eight and nine months old. It was frightening and unpleasant, but after a few months we had both fully recovered from it, and now enjoy lifetime immunity.

    Every parent must read a lot about both the disease and its risks, and the vaccine, its frequent ineffectiveness and its risks. Personally, I’m very sorry to have allowed my daughter to get it, because of her disability, and the fact that we got the disease anyway, and it turned out to be bad, but not so bad that I would have gone to great lengths to avoid it.

    Like

  7. Chris
    May 25, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Hello, Ms. Parker. There is a reason you have been banned. Please stop trying.

    What gave you away, again, was your heartless “only 18 deaths.”

    Like

  8. Lawrence
    May 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    @chris – so, she is Kari, K, and “A Concerned Parent?” I should have known…..

    Like

  9. Chris
    May 25, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    No, not ACP. That sounds more like Michaels.

    Like

  10. A Concerned Parent
    May 25, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Just for giggles I thought I would pop on this new post to see what the chatter is. I am not surprised really that it’s the same people with same sound bites. It does seem to confirm my suspicion that these people really don’t know much but like the physician’s assistants when I was in the Army, they follow flow charts for canned replies to people who don’t swallow the party line. Still waiting for the answer to my question on the flu vaccine, but I’ll pose another question after reading this article.

    Quote 1: “While I accept that vaccines are not perfect, I’m still grateful that they are so widely used and accepted. The fact that no one can guarantee 100% safety or efficacy doesn’t mean vaccines are ineffective or dangerous.”

    Quote 2: “While the risk of adverse events may have been reduced with the introduction of a new vaccine, years later we are now seeing a rise in the number of pertussis cases which has sparked research into the efficacy of the new acellular pertussis vaccine.”

    Questions: Is this the way it works? Efficacy is not really tested until failure becomes obvious? How can anyone accurately assess the risks and benefits as Christine suggests if the benefits are merely assumed to exist until it becomes obvious that they do not?

    Side note: The revelation in this article actually answers my previous question. Bonus points to any of you know it alls who only demand things instead of answering questions can figure out how…

    Like

  11. Gray Falcon
    May 25, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    ACP: I’ve gotten hit by a car crossing a street with a walk signal. Does that mean that jaywalking is safer?

    Like

  12. A Concerned Parent
    May 25, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    What?? Is that what happened to you? At least you have an excuse, can’t say as much for Chris unless she was with you.

    Like

  13. A Concerned Parent
    May 25, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Joking aside Gray Falcon, what’s your point? Do you understand how this article admits the very thing that answers my previous question?

    Like

  14. John Fryer
    May 25, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Most people decades ago in the UK got just one pertussis vaccine at the age of 5 or 6 years and this gave excellent protection and extremely good safety.

    The practice today of vaccines every few months from day one seems madness when there are clear signs of harm. Pertussis vaccines are given at least three times before a child is 6 months (repeat vaccines are not safe and cause anaphylactic reactions)

    One child in 30 crying for hours (CDC figures) and hours and hours hardly gives vaccines a good name and the long term effects on the child are often either ignored or if evident blamed on the parent for harming the child.

    I am still waiting for a response to why repeat vaccines are reckoned safe when it has been proven a long time ago that anaphylaxis becomes a common adverse reaction only controlled/handled by giving a time frame for reporting such effects almost impossible to meet. Difficult to get medical help at night unless life or death situations!

    Repeat DTaP vaccines can make too many people have severe adverse reactions. One in 30 where whole limbs blow up (and the brain too?)

    The current DTaP vaccine is so different from the one I had with a reduction from 3 000 antigens to less than 10. What effect did this have on babies just a few weeks old and did it cause any of the one million SIDS from 1969 through to today when the pertussis has been made so much safer (an so less efficace)?

    DTaP is not for adults (CDC) and certainly the old ones when given to teenagers elicited more than 90 percent complaints from them of harm or adverse reactions. I am still trying to understand why it is safe to give babies 5 lots of DTaP but we are forbidden to give one DTaP to an adult?

    Vaccines are absolutely vital for good health but better if left until older than one day or a few weeks when the body is stronger and the vaccines take much better and dont conflict with maternal antibodies.

    The reference to the CDC leads to recommending pain relievers which may undermine the efficacy of the vaccine and rather cryptically says a pain reliever but not one of the aspirin kind. Acetaminophen would be readily available over the counter in the USA but cannot be recommended by the CDC legally. What kind of lunacy is this? It is clear over 90 per cent of parents will use an acetaminophen pain reliever (what else is there?) but it cannot be recommended by any doctor and the CDC is clearly skirting the subject of which exactly the best pain reliever is shows a lack of integrity on their part.

    The practical forcing of everyone to take all the vaccines and repeats or schooling is held back from the child (punishment?) but they cannot give the name of one single pain reliever for the child who cries and cries and cries and for what reason after a vaccine (a severe adverse effect?).

    In summary the vaccine schedule of decades ago was safe and effective but today has lost its way with much needed vaccines for AIDS, TB, malaria, hospital acquired infections with the only brilliant success of measles diluted by adding other live viruses to it. There are clear links to any one taking a casual look of total numbers of vaccines and numbers of autism children, epilepsy children, bowel disturbancies et al (together with other medical over use eg antibiotics, fluoridated water, pesticide residues, GMO foods etc )

    USA having total extinction of measles but still needing billions of measles vaccine for probably ever? All risk and almost no benefits today? Another dilemma as USA is probably the only country still giving millions of smallpox vaccines (to the military and again it doesnt need much guessing to know why and why the vaccine industry is kept at such high levels of production readiness for biochem war?)

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  15. Lawrence
    May 25, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    @JF – was that English?

    Like

  16. Lawrence
    May 25, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Because your passive-aggressive anti-vaccine questions either don’t make sense or have already been answered over and over again.

    Like

  17. Chris
    May 25, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    Mr. Fryer, you have in the past said things that turned out to be untrue (like Japan does not vaccinate children under age two). Please provide citations for those statements.

    Like

  18. dingo199
    May 25, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    K. :
    Citation for pertussis being often a killer, Dingo?

    Haven’t you leaned anything from your years and years of internet “research”, Ms Parker? You must have an atrocious memory. Pertussis kills around 200,000 kids, usually infants under 1 yr old each year.
    http://www.who.int/immunization/topics/pertussis/en/index.html

    I guess that’s not enough deaths for you is it, or maybe you don’t care because most are in less developed countries than ours, and presumably deaths of a child in Africa, or Asia don’t even make a tiny dent in your conscience.

    But perhaps we can discuss how “often” vaccines are a killer then. Any citations on that one for us, cynthia?

    Like

  19. Gray Falcon
    May 25, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    A Concerned Parent :
    Joking aside Gray Falcon, what’s your point? Do you understand how this article admits the very thing that answers my previous question?

    It admits that a perfect solution is better than no solution. That was the purpose of my example. Crosswalks are not a perfect means of preventing pedestrian collisions, but having them is still useful.

    Like

  20. A Concerned Parent
    May 26, 2013 at 1:49 am

    Just for the record, let me again thank Chris for her admission that she doesn’t know everything. I kind of see your point Gray Falcon, but it is not really relevant because there is no risk involved in painting a crosswalk on the road but there are risks with vaccines. I think you were trying to piggy back off of my other analogy of car crash testing and evidence or lack of and what it means. Sorry but it didn’t really work to be honest.

    My questions are not passive aggressive, they are simply based on obvious contradictions in the article whether you choose to see that or not. I did not write the article but I think that the contradictions are quite striking and deserve to be highlighted. When it comes to medical interventions in otherwise healthy people, people deserve to know whether these things have been adequately tested to make a good decision based on risks and benefits. Since it certainly appears that the benefit side is not really tested until it becomes obvious that the vaccine doesn’t work, like when more vaccinated children become ill than unvaccinated like with pertussis, then the public is being duped into a false sense of security.

    http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/05/25/doctors-change-names-of-diseases-when-vaccines-do-not-work/

    Like

  21. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 1:55 am

    Mr. Michaels, that article does not make any sense in an era where we can detect specific strain of a polio virus, along with other pathogens. Plus Viera Scheibner is a geologist, and has no relevant education. In the future I suggest you stick to PubMed references and to not use anymore sock puppets.

    Like

  22. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 1:56 am

    And, yes, I am convinced that ACP is Mr. Michaels who was banned for using insults and nonsensical references.

    Like

  23. dingo199
    May 26, 2013 at 6:38 am

    From Mr Michaels link about changing the names of diseases:

    “Dr Viera Scheibner is a professional who would not be at all surprised at the above figures.”

    Point is, she is a retired paeleontologist. She has no qualifications or expertise in anything to do with infections or vaccination, period. Her “professional” status is irrelevant, and you might as well cite the opinion of Joe the plumber.

    Like

  24. A Concerned Parent
    May 26, 2013 at 10:17 am

    I had a look back to see who were saying I was. I can see why because he seems to make more sense than you people do. I guess when like minded people decide to actually try and discuss things on here you can’t fathom that there are a lot of people who think like us so its just easier to say that we are all one person. Pathetic really, and a violation of the commenting rules because you are making an unsubstantiated claim about me.

    As far as deferring to the “professional” goes, that is a logical fallacy as just because someone is credentialed does not mean that they are competent, it just means they passed a test unless of course you think that letters after a name grant a god-like insight. If that is the case you are a slave by word and a slave by deed to your own lack of humanity. Truth is truth no matter who utters it. To attack the messenger is to endorse the message. I think you will find that it is irrelevant to talk about strains of pathogens and their detection, the article refers to clinical diagnosis. For example, pertussis case comes in and is diagnosed as croup. No need for laboratory analysis if the clinical diagnosis is not a reportable disease. That is called fixing the evidence to fit the predetermined desired outcome. If doctors and researchers are doing it, they are abusing those credentials you value so highly.

    Just to point out, research techniques cross over between fields. To be an effective researcher is not about the field itself, it is about the technique.

    Like

  25. May 26, 2013 at 10:44 am

    @ACP – I happen to find this particular “messenger” to be more appalling than most, because of her particular habit of attempting to get child-abusers / killers off by using a BS & unsupportable thesis that vaccines cause “shaken-baby” syndrome.

    Like

  26. K
    May 26, 2013 at 11:32 am

    Lawrence,
    That’s silly. Scheibner proved that the DPT caused neurological damage and often caused death reported as SIDS. Mr. Fryer cited the CDC as reporting that one in thirty children receiving the injection experienced screaming syndrome, a primary symptom of vaccine-induced encephalitis. Many say that one third of encephalitis patients recover completely, one third die, and one third sustain permanent brain damage (often manifesting as autism). With one in twenty-five children now becoming autistic after vaccines it is hard to see how you can just discount the evidence as nonsense.
    And Chris, eighteen deaths from pertussis are, of course, tragic. But most of them contracted the disease from appropriately vaccinated individuals. Most of them would not have done so had they been given the DPT instead of the DTaP, as the latter is far less effective, but the former has always been thought to cause less severe reactions. You have to decide how much eighteen deaths are worth. Are they worth it if for that number dying, two hundred get asthma or allergies from the vaccine, or autism? What if there are fifty deaths from peanut allergies or asthma caused by the vaccine for every eighteen deaths from pertussis?

    Like

  27. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    K (Ms. Parker), Scheibner proved nothing. In fact she is mentioned in a recent article on her habit of bullying parents of children who suffered with diseases:

    It was signed by the author, anti-vaccination campaigner Vera Schribner. “I sent it back to her. I was furious,” Cecily says.

    Ms. Parker, you are close to her league. How many deaths make a disease worth preventing? Eighteen, a hundred or tens of thousands? Why did you decide that you get to set that number?

    Like

  28. K
    May 26, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Chris,
    Link to info on Japan’s suspending the DPT for infants in 1975, after many infant deaths were caused by that vaccine. Their SIDS rate went from middling to lowest in the world as soon as they stopped giving the vaccine to infants, but waited until two years old. Subsequently, parents were given the choice when to give the vaccine, and most chose to give it to them as infants, whereupon the SIDS rate went back up to middling again.
    http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=62205

    I don’t know why you think a SIDS death caused by the DPT is less tragic than a death caused by disease. In addition to SIDS, many infants reacted with neurological damage. Harvard University’s Dean of Public Health, Barry Bloom, stated in a recent interview that while the whole cell pertussis vaccine had worked well (to prevent pertussis), it does have some side-effects, with one in 30,000 children becoming neurologically damaged. While Lawrence would like to accuse all of these parents of having caused the damage by abusing their children, fortunately, wiser heads realized that the damage was caused by the vaccine.

    Like

  29. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Ms. Parker, I have linked to that story many times, from a couple of papers. The SIDS rate did not go down, it is just that they cannot blame the vaccine when it was not given. Instead over forty babies died from pertussis. Please stop promoting that lie. See PMID: 15889991, which says: An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

    Like

  30. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    Aargh, mucked up the block quote. But you can figure out the quote. I have also posted this: Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story (which repeats what happened in Japan, and elsewhere). So please stop repeating that lie.

    Like

  31. Chris
    May 26, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Ms. Parker, there is also Genetics and the myth of vaccine encephalopathy and Lack of association between acellular pertussis vaccine and seizures in early childhood, plus:
    PMID: 22080172
    PMID: 21844054
    PMID: 16940831

    Now, Ms. Parker, it is up to you bring in studies with equivalent quality. Make sure that you go back and verify the veracity of the claims you read elsewhere by looking at the actual scientific literature.

    Like

  32. dingo199
    May 26, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    Ms Parker is raising the old canard of “DPT causes SIDS”.
    This supposed association has been disproved many times, and current epidemiological evidence clearly indicates that if anything, DPT vaccination is protective against SIDS.
    Here are a few such peer-reviewed, published scientific studies.
    PMID 10443507
    PMID 3493477

    This one shows how unimmunized infants were over 6 times more likely to die after vaccination:
    PMID 3496805

    This one shows how the SIDS rate rose when Sweden foolishly stopped DPT vaccination.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.1987.tb17261.x/abstract

    Now I know that Ms Parker is well aware that DPT doesn’t cause SIDS, so I wonder why she persists in propagating this lie. Perhaps she could tell us.

    And, since she feels a SIDS death is highly significant, I look forward to her promotion of vaccination as one way to lower the risk.

    Like

  33. dingo199
    May 26, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    And I strongly urge all readers to look at the article Chris cited, it meticulously analyses the effect of antivaccine movements in halting pertussis vaccination in a number of countries, and looks at the devastating consequences (pertussis epidemics and hundreds of deaths in tiny kids)
    http://ftp.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

    Like

  34. dingo199
    May 26, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    Pertussis immunization and Japan:

    Vaccination against pertussis began in 1947. By
    1974, there were few cases and no deaths.
    During a national debate about adverse events resulting from
    smallpox vaccine, news reports of neurological reactions
    after DTP vaccination gave rise to Japan’s movement
    against whole-cell pertussis vaccines. Activists alarmed
    the public with “unbalanced arguments concerning
    vaccine risks” and claimed that “vaccination would no
    longer be needed” because “there was practically no more
    pertussis in the community”.

    This national debate effectively created “a social problem”.
    In response, the Okayama Prefectural Medical Association switched from
    DTP to diphtheria-tetanus vaccine (DT) only. After two
    infants died within 24 h of receiving DTP, the Ministry of
    Health and Welfare eliminated whole-cell pertussis
    vaccine altogether. They later allowed it only for children
    older than 2 years. Pertussis coverage for infants fell from
    nearly 80% in 1974 to 10% in 1976.

    A pertussis epidemic occurred in 1979 with more than 13 000 cases
    and 41 deaths. Japan began replacing whole-cell with
    acellular pertussis vaccines in 1981, and a striking fall in
    pertussis incidence followed (figure 2).

    This is the result of antivaccine propaganda. Death of babies from vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Like

  35. dingo199
    May 26, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    And just to help provide “a concerned parent” with more “giggles” (which is what s/he claimed s/he was here for) here is what happened to one family whose child tragically died of pertussis, being too young to have had the protective vaccine.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-e6frg6n6-1226650600820
    Enjoy.

    Like

  36. K
    May 27, 2013 at 11:24 am

    In Japan from 1970 to 1974, there were 37 documented SIDS cases after pertussis vax. Doctors boycotted it, and in 1975 Japan raised the age of vax from two months to two years. And Japanese infant mortality rate went from 17th place to best in world. In Ped Cherry, JD Report of the task force on per. and per. immunization Jan 1988; 81(6): 933-84. From Cherry’s article: “The category of sudden death is instructive in that the entity disappeared following both whole-cell and acellular vaccines when immunization was delayed until a child was 24 months of age.”
    In 1987, Am J of Pub Health published study that found that SIDS mortality zero to three days after DPT was 7.3 times that as in period starting 30 days after vax. Walker, AM DPT imm and SIDS Aug 1987; 77(80): 945-51. 1992 study: babies died at rate 8 times greater than normal within 3 days of getting DPT. Fine, PE Confounding in studies of adverse reactions to vaccines Am Jo of Epid. 1992; 136(2):121-35.
    Viera Scheibner: Measured apnea and hypopnea (shallow and delayed breathing) before and after per vax. Vax increased both. “Vaccination is the single most prevalent and most preventable cause of infant deaths.” From 1991 National Immunisation Conference in Canberra.

    Like

  37. Chris
    May 27, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    K (Ms. Parker), that bit of fiction has been dealt with, which is one reason you were banned in the first place. Either provide a valid way to protect babies from pertussis, or go away.

    Also get it into your head that we have absolutely no respect for Viera Scheibner. She has no relevant education and is actually quite an evil person.

    Like

  38. Chris
    May 27, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Also learn how to give proper cites:

    “immunization Jan 1988; 81(6): 933-84”, cannot find.

    “Am J of Pub Health Aug 1987; 77(80): 945-51”, cannot find

    “Am Jo of Epid. 1992; 136(2):121-35”, cannot find.

    I cannot tell if you are deliberately mucking up the cites so that we cannot verify their contents, or if your illness has made you that completely incompetent. If it is the former, it is more evidence that you should be banned again. If it is the latter, then you need to get some professional help, if not for yourself but for your family.

    Like

  39. K
    May 27, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    I checked, it was Am J Pub Health 77(8), not 80. It was Pediatrics, not Immunisation, the Ped stood for Pediatrics, Jun 1988. The rest of the citations are correct.

    Like

  40. May 27, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    @Ms. Parker – why were you banned again (on multiple occasions)?

    Like

  41. A Concerned Parent
    May 27, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    dingo199 :
    And just to help provide “a concerned parent” with more “giggles” (which is what s/he claimed s/he was here for) here is what happened to one family whose child tragically died of pertussis, being too young to have had the protective vaccine.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-e6frg6n6-1226650600820
    Enjoy.

    Hold on a minute there! If I showed you a single case of injury from a vaccine you would claim that an anecdote does not make evidence, so why do you do it? Hypocrisy anyone?

    Like

  42. May 27, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    @ACP – so, you have no problem with anti-vax crazies going after parents that have had their child die of a vaccine-preventable disease?

    Are you a monster?

    Like

  43. A Concerned Parent
    May 27, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    By the way, there is not one substantiation of the claims made in that article and an awful lot of subscribing individual comments from “members of forums” to an organization. None of that constitutes any evidence of anything unless you are prone to being swayed by sensationalist reporting, which I suspect you are. I prefer to look at uncompromised information.

    Like

  44. May 27, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    @ACP – really? Wow, then why doesn’t the actual “factual” information that is scientifically sound & based mean anything to you?

    Like

  45. May 27, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @ACP – I believe the AVN’s reputation speaks for itself….

    http://reasonablehank.com/2013/05/10/nsw-parliament-135-meryl-dorey-0/

    Like

  46. A Concerned Parent
    May 27, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    Since when does reputation equal proof? You have a reputation by all accounts of being a bit dim and unable to comprehend complex thought, but is that proof? You have a very transparent double standard that calls your motives into question…

    Like

  47. A Concerned Parent
    May 27, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    Anyway, you really bore me Lawrence. You are very predictable. I came here seeking information and all I have seen is cliche and propaganda. I am bored by the predictability from all of the proponents. You accuse people of what you are doing and ignore anything that challenges your beliefs. Sad, really.

    Like

  48. A Concerned Parent
    May 27, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    I see that you have replied within 3 minutes of my comment. This kind of timing has been noted before. Either you have no life or your job is to monitor comments, I am not sure which. In either event, I have a life so I’ll check back and read your drivel tomorrow…

    Like

  49. dingo199
    May 27, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    A Concerned Parent :
    By the way, there is not one substantiation of the claims made in that article and an awful lot of subscribing individual comments from “members of forums” to an organization. None of that constitutes any evidence of anything unless you are prone to being swayed by sensationalist reporting, which I suspect you are. I prefer to look at uncompromised information.

    Wow! …..Hypocrisy anyone?
    I mention a case of antivax evil towards a mother and you claim this?
    I might have ignored your dreadful hand wringing and pseudoangst on this issue if you were minimally consistent and took the perennial, unevidenced claims of “vaccine killed/gave my child autism!” to task. You think any of those are fully evidence based with conclusive proof and never sensationally reported? (And if you have taken antivaxers to task in this way as you would have done if you were objective, a link to where you have posted to this effect would be very much welcomed)

    PS The Dana McCaffery story is very well documented. It may be only one case of a child dying from vaccine preventable disease, you are correct. There are thousands more. But this one is important for how it shows the despicable modus operandum of the antivaccine movement.

    Like

  50. dingo199
    May 27, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    A Concerned Parent :
    Since when does reputation equal proof? You have a reputation by all accounts of being a bit dim and unable to comprehend complex thought, but is that proof?

    Strange how you characterize my posts as being “rude”, yet you indulge in personal attacks yourself and derogatory comments about other posters’ intelligence.

    Like

  51. dingo199
    May 27, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    A Concerned Parent :
    I came here seeking information and all I have seen is cliche and propaganda.

    Well I suppose you can always decide that information you disagree with or dislike counts as “propaganda”. But what you see here isn’t the dictionary doesn’t fulfill the definition or the etymological criterion of propaganda.

    In my book propaganda entails a deliberate dissemination of false or misleading one-sided information or ideas for spurious ideological reasons. Telling people the hard and sometimes unpalatable facts about health and disease, the adverse consequences of not vaccinating and pointing out the harm that antivaccine activists do does not count as propaganda in my book. But then, that depends on which side of the fence you sit on. We know which side you are on, thanks for admitting it finally.

    Like

  52. Chris
    May 27, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    ACP:

    I came here seeking information and all I have seen is cliche and propaganda.

    And you have been given several links to find that relevant information. The CDC will be open tomorrow after today’s national holiday. I am sure they will love to answer all your questions.

    Like

  53. K
    May 28, 2013 at 10:32 am

    People can die or be permanently disabled by either the vaccines or the vaccine-preventable diseases. We all agree on that, the question is as to the relative numbers, and on that we don’t agree, for obvious reasons. The death of any child and of most adults is tragic, whatever the cause. Dingo cited the tragic death of a child from pertussis: above are cited many reports of children dying one or two days after the pertussis vaccine, and their parents believed their deaths were caused by the vaccine, and were just as devastated as those whose child died of a disease. We believe that the numbers killed or damaged by the vaccines in the US at this time far exceed those killed or damaged by the diseases. You dismiss all evidence out of hand which does not accord with your professed opinion. I, at least, do not believe that it is your real opinion.

    Like

  54. May 28, 2013 at 10:49 am

    @K – then point to real evidence to support your position…..

    Like

  55. May 28, 2013 at 10:57 am

    @K – you “believe” a lot of things, but I’m not seeing any real evidence to support those beliefs.

    Like

  56. Chris
    May 28, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    K (Ms. Parker), learn how to post cites. None of the ones you tried last time worked. Since you have trouble actually typing the citations, just post the PMIDs. Again, I cut and pasted what you thought were “cites” into the search window on PubMed and it did not find anything.

    It is obvious that your illness is affecting your basic keyboarding skills. Please, if you for yourself, but for your family, get some professional help. It is terribly sad to see someone who did the work to get both a doctorate in Spanish and a law degree to lose skills.

    Like

  57. dingo199
    May 28, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    K :People can die or be permanently disabled by either the vaccines or the vaccine-preventable diseases. We all agree on that, the question is as to the relative numbers, and on that we don’t agree, for obvious reasons. The death of any child and of most adults is tragic, whatever the cause. Dingo cited the tragic death of a child from pertussis: above are cited many reports of children dying one or two days after the pertussis vaccine, and their parents believed their deaths were caused by the vaccine, and were just as devastated as those whose child died of a disease. We believe that the numbers killed or damaged by the vaccines in the US at this time far exceed those killed or damaged by the diseases. You dismiss all evidence out of hand which does not accord with your professed opinion. I, at least, do not believe that it is your real opinion.

    No K, I take pride, as do all true scientists, in looking at the totality of evidence before forming an opinion. It is always the case that those who profess to blame vaccines have exhibited massive confirmation bias – they never accept any studies that disagree with their preconceptions, always finding “excuses” to dismiss the evidence. So when a co-author once attended a conference on vaccine development where he was given a ballpoint pen? “Pharma shill! Cannot be trusted! Ignore all their work!” You think I am joking, but then you haven’t seen people like Jake Crosby and John Stone in action (well, there again, seeing as how you are likely to be Ms C Parker from AoA, you will be very familiar with the usual technique).

    You seem to entertain a delusion that vaccines kill more than the diseases do. I really cannot comprehend how anyone could reach such an illogical and irrational position, particularly if they lived through the bad old days of epidemics of pertussis, polio and diphtheria in the 40s to the 60s. Let slip our guard and diseases will come roaring back. Some are only a plane ride away.

    You remind me of someone in this hypothetical scenario:

    Imagine it is recommended parents use child safety seats in cars. Their introduction then result in a huge drop in child deaths and injuries, almost none in fact. However, a small proportion of children get harmed by the seats – maybe they were not fitted correctly, or occasionally of inferior quality, or sometimes they just didn’t do enough to protect a child or actually harmed them because they could not be released promptly in some circumstances.

    My view would be that we need to continue to build on the health gains resulting from these seats, finding ways to make them idiot proof and even safer than they already are. The “antivax” view would be that because so few kids die in accidents, there is now quite plainly no need for the seats (analogous to your view expressed above I assume). And what is more, because some seats are imperfect, ALL of them should be scrapped immediately.

    Your beliefs, as usual, come without any evidence to back them up. Assessment of risk is sometimes tricky, sometimes straightforward, and you stink at it. Now here is an odd thing – the other day I read somewhere that it was that the deaths estimated from Vioxx were outnumbered by the deaths from arthritis sufferers who had upper GI hemorrhages because they all stopped Vioxx and turned to alternatives with a lower cardiac risk but a much higher GI bleed risk. Funny old world, isn’t it?

    Like

  58. May 29, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Reblogged this on NFID News and commented:
    As Voltaire once said, “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” Since the 2012-2013 flu season, there has been a lot of focus on the efficacy of the flu vaccine particularly in older adults. However, as this post from Shot of Prevention demonstrates, the goal should be progress versus total perfection.

    Like

  59. June 18, 2013 at 4:57 am

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    Like

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