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Helping Parents Overcome Vaccine Hesitancy

momandchildEarlier this week I was privy to a conversation in which a parent was expressing her concerns about her child’s upcoming immunization appointment.

Admittedly, she was hesitant.  She had rejected vaccines in the past, but recently decided to take her children in for their missed immunizations.

However, in the days prior to the appointment, she couldn’t help but worry about her lingering fears.  As she reached out to a group of women in an online forum, I witnessed the importance of honesty, compassion and education in responding to vaccine hesitancy.

A Caring Community Responds

I was so impressed by the way in which this small community of women responded to this mother’s concern.  They did not belittle her, despite the fact that many of her concerns were straight out of an anti-vaccine playbook.  Instead, they took the time to address each concern respectfully.  They countered the suggestion that “Big Pharma is out to get us” with an abundance of evidence and research.  When raising the concern about “toxins”, there was an intelligent discussion of chemistry and biology (and the concern that many people are not well educated on these two topics and fail to understand the ingredients in vaccines and how they work safely to generate an effective immune response).

It helped for this parent to be able to talk openly to such a supportive group.  And even though she had come to understand the benefit of getting her children vaccinated, she was frustrated that the many unsubstantiated claims of vaccine injury that she had read on the internet had left her feeling as though something bad might happen.   But she was reminded that fear and doubt is the premise behind the anti-vaccine initiative.  In the end, she realized that when the evidence is objectively evaluated, we see a much greater risk of injury from the diseases than from any vaccine.  And it’s only after we look at the science are we able to respond more rationally to our emotionally driven doubts.

Since education is an effective way to overcome fear and build confidence, these parents knew how important it was to suggest resources that could effectively address the most common vaccine related questions and concerns.

Valuable Resources for Vaccine Education

For instance, one woman suggested that she investigate a fairly new resource  entitled “Vaccine Safety and Your Child“, which is an excerpt from Vaccines and Your Child, by Paul A. Offit, M.D., F.A.A.P., and Charlotte A. Moser.  This booklet covers general questions about vaccine safety, the vaccine schedule and provides details about vaccine ingredients and whether vaccines cause chronic disease, autism, allergies, asthma, cancer, diabetes, GBS or SIDS.  It is available in both English and Spanish and can be viewed (or printed) from the Vaccine Education Center website or ordered for $1/booklet plus shipping here.

Another great resource, entitled Understanding Vaccines:  What They Are, How They Work, is a 59 page booklet that has been made available by the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases.    It goes into great detail about the way in which vaccines work, including a detailed explanation of antigens, T cells, B cells and adjuvants.  There is a chapter devoted to understanding the difference between live, attenuated vaccines, inactivated vaccines, toxoid vaccines, subunit vaccines, conjugate vaccines, DNA vaccines and recombinant vaccines.  It’s an excellent reference to share with people who are looking for a preliminary understanding of vaccine science as well as someone who is looking to investigate the safety and research conducted on vaccines.

There is also a 52-page book entitled The History of Vaccines, which was created on behalf of The College of Physicians of Philadelphia.  It covers the birth of vaccination in the late 1700s, the influences of the bacteriological revolution of the late 1800s, and the flourishing of vaccinology into the 21st century. It is a visually engaging resource that is targeted to teenagers and high school science, health, and history classes but it is absolutely essential information to everyone seeking knowledge of vaccines.  It is just one of the many resources available to educators from The History of Vaccines site and is available for purchase from Amazon.com for $9.99.

Stories of Vaccine Preventable Disease

Certainly it’s encouraging that people are sharing these resources widely.  However, because fear of the minuscule risk of adverse effects from vaccines has been so well exaggerated by those strongly opposed to vaccines, it’s important that we continue to highlight the true risks of the diseases themselves.  Stories of vaccine preventable diseases, such as those highlighted on Vaccinate Your Baby, Shot By Shot or in blogs like KC Kids Doc with their recent personal account of a harrowing tale of diphtheria, are just as important to share with vaccine hesitant parents as the safety studies and science behind vaccines.

Thanks to successful immunization programs, many parents these days are not familiar with the risks of these diseases.  Keeping them informed of what we are so fortunate not to have to worry about is a critical part of vaccine education.  In fact, it is the part that I find most motivating.  Because thanks to vaccines, many people have been spared disease, disability and even death.

Sadly, this week we see a new case of polio in Somalia, an ongoing measles epidemic in Wales with over 1200 cases and rising concerns about mumpsrubella and cases of measles elsewhere.  The point is that it may not be your child who is suffering with a vaccine preventable disease today, but it could be tomorrow.

If you have a story to share about a personal experience with a vaccine preventable disease, please contact us at shotofprevention@gmail.com and help us to educate others about the real risks diseases and the benefits of vaccines.  And if please feel free to share a list of your own favorite resources so that we can all do our part to help others overcome their vaccine hesitancy.

  1. Jen
    May 17, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    This hypothetical young mother should be aware that the supportive group will only support her if she vaxes and her child does all right. If he reacts to the vaccine, however mildly or severely, all the support of that group will vanish, and she will see what belittling means.

    Like

  2. May 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    @jen – any proof of that?

    Why don’t you head back to your “friends” at AoA & bleach some more autistic children.

    Like

  3. Sharon
    May 17, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Thank you! This is much more like the conversation I consider worth having and reading about. I’m pretty sure I’ve had all the fake debates about thimerosol, for instance, anyone needs in a lifetime. So few people will never have their children vaccinated. Many, many more have questions and would just like a conversation around vaccines and some science-based resources from sources they’ve heard of. I’m all about that.

    Like

  4. Howie
    May 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Lawrence :
    @jen – any proof of that?
    Why don’t you head back to your “friends” at AoA & bleach some more autistic children.

    You are walking talking proof! If anyone doubts the veracity of the tale in this blog, just read how the “compassionate” pro vax crowd treat anyone who disagrees with them in any thread on any previous blog entry. The compassion is so great that it brings tears to my eyes. (Oh, and if you are swayed by them and your previously normal child is damaged after vaccination, they will say it is coincidence and if you defy them they will call you a liar and try to bully you into submission)

    Like

  5. Howie
    May 17, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    “They countered the suggestion that ”Big Pharma is out to get us” with an abundance of evidence and research.” Which they failed to mention came from industry backed researchers, institutions or government agencies led by industry insiders, but hey-ho, if it convinces the poor mother so be it. Oh, and I bet they didn’t mention how industry lobbyist are working with law makers in virtually every State to try and help this poor woman out by taking away the burden of choice and freedom by using legislation to compel her in the future.

    Like

  6. May 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    @Howie – have you ever provided any sort of citation or evidence to support your position here?

    Like

  7. May 17, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    I’d also recommend that parents educate themselves with the variety of legitimate sources of information out there, starting with:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/index.html

    And following that up with a good refutation of the standard anti-vaccine myths here:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Like

  8. May 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Wow – the filter is strong today.

    Parents should speak with their chosen Pediatric ian if they have concerns. If there are any indications that might make an alternative schedule make sense, that is the time and place to discuss it.

    Like

  9. Jen
    May 17, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    Sharon,
    Thimerosal is only used in trace amounts now, still in full force in most injected flu vaccines though. If you’re comfortable injecting 25 mcg of the deadliest non-radioactive element known to man into yourself or your child, fine. Not everyone excretes it from their bodies quickly, and many store the mercury in their brains indefinitely, where it causes many horrible symptoms of many horrible conditions. I would encourage you to read about it before you breeze past the issue. But you’re right, for babies born in the last ten years, if they refuse the flu vaccines that have it, don’t have to worry about any but the trace amounts (which may still be damaging, the tiniest dose imaginable of mercury is still powerful).

    Sure, read Dr. P, but if you love your children, you’d better get information from both sides of the aisle before endangering your child’s health either by getting or refusing the vaccines.

    Like

  10. Jen
    May 17, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    Lawrence,
    Are you a robot? Evidence to support Howie’s position? Look back over the thousands of posts here since fall 2009. Have you guys EVER said anything supportive or kind to the parent of a vaccine-damaged child, hundreds of whom have posted here over the years? Just click archives and pick any article at random, and get back to me with any supportive statement you guys have ever made to the vaccine-damaged. And don’t tell me that no one here has ever proved their child was vaccine-damaged. In a group of supportive parents, if a mother arrived sobbing about her son’s dramatic regression into autism and bowel disease a week after the MMR, would you give her the fifth degree and tell her to stop whining until she had a Vaccine Court judgment in hand and five PubMed articles supporting her story of pain and fear?

    Like

  11. May 17, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    @Jen – given that you don’t even have a clue about basic biology & just keep repeating already debunked anti-vaccine myths – disproved here (to start):

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    It is hopeless to engage you (given that you are in favor of giving Bleach & Chemically castrating autistic children, for a start).

    Howie has yet to provide a single source or citation to back up his own assertions, as you have been unable to do so as well.

    Like

  12. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    Jen:

    Thimerosal is only used in trace amounts now, still in full force in most injected flu vaccines though

    How is four out of eight of the influenza vaccines for children “most”?

    Have you guys EVER said anything supportive or kind to the parent of a vaccine-damaged child, hundreds of whom have posted here over the years?

    Have you said anything supportive to a parent of a child who was damaged by an actual disease?

    Which happens more often, damage from a vaccine or damage from a disease? This past year over a hundred children died from influenza, the actual disease. Do you have a PubMed indexed study showing the influenza vaccine caused that much havoc in any year?

    Like

  13. May 17, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    @Chris – one only has to read up on how the anti-vaccine goups have treated parents whose childen died of Pertussis (one Australian case comes to mind), never mind what they’ve said about the gentlemen who died in Wales or all of those who have been infected…..they consider them nothing but “acceptable losses” in their unending war against vaccines.

    Like

  14. J.
    May 17, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    # Lawrence 11:

    If you cannot provide proof that I have advocated giving bleach to or chemically castrating autistic children, then your remark was insulting under the terms of this blog and should not be permitted. Or, alternatively, leave it up so the innocent bystander can see it and judge you accordingly.

    Like

  15. May 17, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    @Jen – I’ve taken a look at your (and others’) comments at AoA. You all should be ashamed at how you treat autistics and also how you react to the death & maiming of children by vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Like

  16. Jennifer
    May 17, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    Chris and Lawrence,
    You’re totally off-topic. This is a blog that is supposed to be like the group described in the article: a safe, supportive place for people to come with their questions, fears, and doubts on vaccine safety. Does it matter how many have died of vaccine-preventable diseases if your response to their fears is the kind of insult you deal out in every one of your posts? Most people now have seen the vaccine-damaged who are everywhere now. Thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people just in the US believe very sincerely that vaccines caused their or their children’s disability. If someone comes to you and says in all sincerity that his first child reacted to a vaccine and now has autism, is it appropriate to insult him and tell him to go you know where with his irresponsible lies designed to fool people into causing their children’s deaths? I would gently submit that this is what you guys routinely say, and would suggest that this is not an appropriate way to win hearts and minds to your cause.

    Like

  17. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    “she was frustrated that the many unsubstantiated claims of vaccine injury that she had read on the internet had left her feeling as though something bad might happen. But she was reminded that fear and doubt is the premise behind the anti-vaccine initiative.”

    Something bad might happen.

    Yes, it’s all about fear and doubt, not that anything really bad happens from vaccines.

    OMG.

    Like

  18. May 17, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    @Jen – also, do you deny that both of those “treatments” are currently recommended by anti-vaccine organizations as “legitimate” biomeds for autism?

    Like

  19. May 17, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    @jennifer – I have yet to find anyone here that is anti-vax that approaches the issue coolly, calming or rationally.

    The mountains of evidence are there – the parents who subscribe to the anti-vax viewpoints are mistaken in their beliefs.

    What is horrifying, is that these individuals would be happy to bring back the very real threat of vaccine-preventable diseases (they’d probably bring back smallpox, if they could) because of their irrational fear of hypothetical risk.

    Like

  20. May 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    @Farley – because nothing bad happens from VPDs, do they?

    http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/baby-dies-whooping-cough-orange-co/nXXqP/

    Oops…..

    Like

  21. May 17, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Or this, for example:

    Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
    In 2011, there were 158 000 measles deaths globally – about 430 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

    Like

  22. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    Lawrence, The difference is, I never said nothing bad can happen from diseases.

    Yes, we do deny that Bleach and chemical castrating are considered legitimate bio-medical treatments. They are NOT. You are just spreading lies!

    Like

  23. May 17, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    @Farley – interesting that the Geiers are still held in high regard by the Anti-vax folks, despite having had their medical licenses stripped in just about every state they could practice (not to mention the fact that one of them wasn’t even a doctor, but still “treated” individuals), and that MMS is still being pushed at the Autism One conference….you might want to have a chat with the folks over at AoA, seems like they didn’t get the message.

    Like

  24. May 17, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    @Farley – you made a strawman argument, because no one here denies that adverse vaccines reactions exist…..what doesn’t exist is any evidence to conclude that those reactions are anything but extremely rare and related to the onset of autism.

    If you have any legitimate evidence to the contrary to refute:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    Please feel free to post it here & we can have a rational discussion about it.

    Like

  25. May 17, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    @Farley – actually, you are correct. Those two treatments are not “legitimate.”

    So why are they continuing to be pushed at places like the Autism One conference?

    Like

  26. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Here is the quote I commented on lawrence….

    “she was frustrated that the many unsubstantiated claims of vaccine injury that she had read on the internet had left her feeling as though something bad might happen. But she was reminded that fear and doubt is the premise behind the anti-vaccine initiative.”

    Like

  27. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    And….MMS is not bleach. I personally would not use MMS, but you are worng when you say it is bleach.

    Also, there are thousands of bio-medical treatments, some are wonderful and others aren’t. You can’t put them all in the same boat.

    Like

  28. May 17, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    @Farley – suffice to say, chemically, MMS is a bleach – that’s a fact.

    As to your comment on the above statement, if you compare the known side-effects of vaccines vs. the known side-effects of the diseases they prevent, it is painfully obvious that the anti-vax groups are hyping up totally theoretical fears by presenting emotional stories without a single shred of legitimate evidence (that’s pushing fear, in anyone’s book).

    Like

  29. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    Jennifer:

    This is a blog that is supposed to be like the group described in the article: a safe, supportive place for people to come with their questions, fears, and doubts on vaccine safety.

    And I do come with questions. I asked you a question on the relative risks between influenza and vaccines for influenza. Since influenza has killed over a hundred children this past year, what evidence is there that the vaccine is worse?

    I also asked you a basic math question: How is four out of eight considered “most”?

    How is asking questions about the science a bad thing?

    Like

  30. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Activated MMS (sodium chlorite + citric acid) is chlorine dioxide (Cl02).

    Chlorine bleach is sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl).

    Very different

    Like

  31. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    It is irresponsible to say “nothing bad can happen” from a vaccine. And to also say that if somebody does say something bad can happen, then they are only fearmongering. Ridiculous.

    Like

  32. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    Farley, please read the comment policy, the link on the right hand side of this page. Pay attention to the following that are not permitted:

    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    This is not a place to promote that kind of treatment.

    Like

  33. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    Farley, who has said “nothing bad can happen from vaccines”?

    Perhaps you can clarify the relative risks. Support your answer showing a vaccine, like the DTaP, has a risk that makes actually getting pertussis a favored choice with PubMed indexed documentation. Thank you.

    Like

  34. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    Chris – your boy Lawrence brought up Chlorine bleach treatments and then he brought up MMS. Would you like me to supply the comment numbers?

    Like

  35. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    Chris, quoted right out of the article…

    “she was frustrated that the many unsubstantiated claims of vaccine injury that she had read on the internet had left her feeling as though something bad might happen. But she was reminded that fear and doubt is the premise behind the anti-vaccine initiative.”

    Like

  36. Lawrence
    May 17, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    @farley – I was merely pointing out the absolute lack of real scientific understanding on the anti-vax side using two examples of quack treatments.

    Thank you for confirming your lack of scientific knowledge.

    Like

  37. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Too bad you are uneducated and flat out wrong lawrence.

    Just because the word Chlorine is in the name, it is very different from common household Clorox Bleach or pool chlorine, which are poisons known to be carcinogenic.

    Chlorine Dioxide works differently than Chlorine in that it destroys the pathogens completely through oxidation, and is itself destroyed in the reaction leaving nothing behind to build up or cause side effects. The by-products are table salt, discharged oxygen atoms, and the remains of dead pathogens that are easily removed by the body. (Chlorine Dioxide =ClO2, Chlorine = Cl, Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) = NaOCl. ClO2 does not equal Cl and does not equal NaOCl).

    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/2/148.abstract

    http://www.water.siemens.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Product_Lines/Wallace_and_Tiernan_Products/Brochures/WT.085.272.003.IE.AN.0409.pdf

    Like

  38. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    Lawrence, I’ll go out and find some quack-freak pro vax people and let them speak for all of you OK? Since you all think exaclty the same way right? One for all and all for one right?

    Like

  39. Lawrence
    May 17, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    @farley -you want to force your kids to consume bleach, that’s your business.

    Like

  40. Lawrence
    May 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    @farley – no, I think your quackfest will suffice to speak for itself.

    Like

  41. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    Farley, we did not argue that MMS is a bleach because it contains chlorine, we argued that because it is a bleaching agent. The articles you point out involve it being used at a very dilute level, far less than when it’s used as medicine. Water is essential for life, but we can still drown.

    Like

  42. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    As I mentioned above, I wouldn’t use MMS for anything, but you still need to get your facts straight and quit spreading lies.

    And you quackfest will speak for itself lawrence. I’ll find some extreme idiots that are pro vax and just assume you suppor them. Perfect.

    Like

  43. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:38 pm

    Gray, you did not argue anything at all.

    Like

  44. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    You spread a lie, you get called on it. That’s how life works, Farley.

    Like

  45. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    In case you’re wondering, MMS breaks into chlorine dioxide when it is prepared. Here’s what OSHA has to say about that chemical:

    Effects on Humans: Chlorine dioxide is a severe respiratory and eye irritant in humans. Inhalation can produce coughing, wheezing, respiratory distress, and congestion in the lungs [Patnaik 1992]. Irritating effects in humans was intense at concentration levels of 5 ppm. Accidental exposure at 19 ppm of the gas inside a bleach tank resulted in the death of one worker (time of exposure is not specified) [ACGIH 1991]. Workers exposed for 5 years to average chlorine dioxide concentrations below 0.1 ppm but with excursions to higher concentrations had symptoms of eye and throat irritation, nasal discharge, cough, and wheezing; on bronchoscopy, bronchitis was observed in seven of the 12 workers [Clayton and Clayton 1982]. Concentrations of 0.25 ppm and less have been reported to worsen mild respiratory ailments [ACGIH 1991]. Two adults who ingested 250 ml of a 40 mg/l solution of chlorine dioxide experienced headache, nausea, abdominal discomfort, and lightheadedness within 5 minutes of ingestion. The symptoms disappeared within another 5 minutes [NLM

    http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinedioxide/recognition.html

    Like

  46. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Life is great Gray!

    Like

  47. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Farley :
    Life is great Gray!

    Translation: I have no idea how to respond to this onslaught of cold hard facts.

    Like

  48. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    Translation, because you are not very bright.

    Like

  49. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Tell me, Farley, what will people think of you when you respond to an OSHA report with childish insults?

    Like

  50. dingo199
    May 17, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    MMS…. bleach whichever way you look at it.
    http://networkedblogs.com/GYFGG

    Like

  51. Karen
    May 17, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    You guys are way, way off-topic. And Chris, how many people do you think care if there’s a PubMed citation confirming or denying a relationship between vaccines and iatrogenic disease? As Howie said, PubMed is a vaccine-maker’s game. No one outside your world cares. Take a poll and see how many people base their life’s decisions on published PubMed articles. Let’s go back to the supportive group counseling fearful young mothers on vaccines. What do you tell them if they fear vaccines more than the diseases, having all seen autistic children themselves, bless their hearts, but do not wish to have one of their own? What if they care more about their own families than about chidren in Africa? Just go on and on about the one in a milion who dies of chickenpox? Actually, you don’t need to answer that question, as years of back posts here will answer it for you.

    Like

  52. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    Karen, it was once popular opinion that the Earth is flat. Popularity of ideas does not make them right.

    Like

  53. May 17, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    @Karen – as soon as you said the word “iatrogenic” I knew I could ignore the remainder of your comment.

    Like

  54. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    Dingo – I can not disagree with your link. I agree, and would never use MMS myself.

    If I am playing devil’s advocate, and I am. I know many that have wonderful results giving it to their kids and I mean really amazing results. In the short term, this is wonderful, in the long term I wonder what this will do to these kids?? Have you ever heard the dose is the poison? That may be the key.

    The FDA stated that MMS is dangerous and shouldn’t be used. But they also appove coca-cola, and you know all the things you can do with coke? More research is needed.

    Like

  55. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 9:08 pm

    I don’t know Gray…why don’t you tell me what you say to OSHA and I’ll say the same thing.

    Like

  56. Farley
    May 17, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    Gray Falcon, it was once popular opinion that vaccines were completely safe and effective. Popularity of ideas does not make them right.

    Like

  57. Gray Falcon
    May 17, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    Farley, have you ever considered thinking before you post?

    Like

  58. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    Farley, perhaps you should understand the word “unsubstantiated” is not a complete denial of real vaccine injury. Yes they do happen, often at a rate of less than one in a million vaccine doses.

    Karen:

    As Howie said, PubMed is a vaccine-maker’s game. No one outside your world cares.

    Howie would not support that claim with any kind of verifiable documentation. Could you please provide the evidence to support that claim?

    Like

  59. Chris
    May 17, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    Karen:

    And Chris, how many people do you think care if there’s a PubMed citation confirming or denying a relationship between vaccines and iatrogenic disease?

    What does it matter how many people there are. The important thing is that you and your friends refuse to answer my questions. I have a child injured from a real disease, you need to provide real evidence for your claims.

    Like

  60. Howie
    May 18, 2013 at 2:59 am
  61. Howie
    May 18, 2013 at 3:16 am

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmunos/2013/04/29/the-pharmaceutical-industry-vs-society/?ss=strategies-solutions

    Even the industry stalwart Forbes can see the obvious. The industry is out of control and losing the PR battle. As all of these “blockbusters” go by the wayside, where do you think pharma is looking for profits? You got it… vaccines.

    Like

  62. May 18, 2013 at 4:58 am

    @Howie – okay, now who is pulling citations with no relation to the topic at hand?

    What, can’t take the heat?

    Like

  63. Susan
    May 18, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Chris,
    It matters because people need to know how many people in the US are seriously injured or killed by the VPDs in order to use this information in their risk/benefit analysis before getting a vax. Of course there are some who are killed or injured. But there are also many killed or injured by vaccines. Those of you who discount from the get-go any parent who reports to the VAERS that his child was seriously injured by a vaccine cannot ever know the truth

    Like

  64. Susan
    May 18, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    From Institute of Medicine reports on vaccine safety: 2002: “epdemiological and clinical evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between multiple immunizations and an increased risk of allergic disease, particularly asthma…Committee unable to address the concern…that exposure of a suscepible or fragile child to multiple vaccines over the develomental period may also produce atypical or nonspecific immune or nervous system injury that could lead to severe disability or

    Like

  65. novalox
    May 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    @susan

    [citation needed]

    Like

  66. Chris
    May 18, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Susan:

    It matters because people need to know how many people in the US are seriously injured or killed by the VPDs in order to use this information in their risk/benefit analysis before getting a vax

    Then provide that data and compare it to the risks of the actual diseases. That is what I am asking you to do. Why are you refusing to do that, and keep changing your username.

    By the way that IOM report is over ten years old. Try the most recent studies. You can start by showing that the influenza vaccine has caused as much harm as the actual disease, which killed over a hundred children this past year.

    Like

  67. Chris
    May 18, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    Howie, please tell me which vaccine company influenced this paper: Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan.

    The paper you posted had nothing to do with the PubMed index. Also do not include opinion pieces as evidence that the index of global medical journals is part of the vaccine industry.

    Like

  68. Chris
    May 18, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Susan, Howie, Karen, and the other sock puppets: PubMed, which is the Public Medical Index of research, is not perfect. But it is one way to filter out the nonsense that folks try to push as “research.” That includes an online survey by a homeopath in Germany. Which also points to the why the researcher needs to be qualified, hence the papers by lawyers, computer scientists, journalists, business professors, etc seem to have very obvious errors born out of an obvious bias (like the one that claimed all children who get speech language intervention were autistic, no they are not).

    Yes, we know pharmaceutical companies try to influence public policy. But the papers we are referencing are done by public health agencies, some foundations (Gangarosa International Health Foundation), and independent university researchers using grants from various sources (like the National Institute of Health, and equivalents in other countries). Some have even had input from organizations like SafeMinds (PMID 17898097).

    If you are going to keep telling us how terrible vaccines are, you are going to have to use verifiable evidence and compare them to the actual diseases. Stories are not enough, you need real verifiable substantiated data.

    Like

  69. Chris
    May 18, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    By the way, when looking up PMID 17898097, I saw there was an updated version: Thimerosal Exposure in Early Life and Neuropsychological Outcomes 7–10 Years Later. Do be sure to let me know which vaccine company had a part in that study.

    Like

  70. Suzy
    May 18, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Lara,
    Were you suggesting that I didn’t have a source, but was making it up? IoM Immunization Safety Review: Multiple Immunizations and Immune Dysfunction 2002

    Like

  71. Howie
    May 18, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Howie – okay, now who is pulling citations with no relation to the topic at hand?
    What, can’t take the heat?

    Well, when the compassionate women of the obviously fictitious group of concerned mothers start quoting research to a concerned mother who disagreed with them, perhaps it would be in the interest of fairness to let the concerned mother know that the industry has been found to have undue influence on the research being quoted. Certainly that is on topic.

    Like

  72. Howie
    May 18, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Chris :
    Howie, please tell me which vaccine company influenced this paper: Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan.
    The paper you posted had nothing to do with the PubMed index. Also do not include opinion pieces as evidence that the index of global medical journals is part of the vaccine industry.

    You are citing a paper designed to figure how to increase vaccination rates? What does that have to do with anything regarding illness, vaccines, risk/benefit or anything else? Talk about random citations…

    Like

  73. Mr Michaels the thrid
    May 18, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    Chris :
    Susan, Howie, Karen, and the other sock puppets: PubMed, which is the Public Medical Index of research, is not perfect. But it is one way to filter out the nonsense that folks try to push as “research.” That includes an online survey by a homeopath in Germany. Which also points to the why the researcher needs to be qualified, hence the papers by lawyers, computer scientists, journalists, business professors, etc seem to have very obvious errors born out of an obvious bias (like the one that claimed all children who get speech language intervention were autistic, no they are not).
    Yes, we know pharmaceutical companies try to influence public policy. But the papers we are referencing are done by public health agencies, some foundations (Gangarosa International Health Foundation), and independent university researchers using grants from various sources (like the National Institute of Health, and equivalents in other countries). Some have even had input from organizations like SafeMinds (PMID 17898097).
    If you are going to keep telling us how terrible vaccines are, you are going to have to use verifiable evidence and compare them to the actual diseases. Stories are not enough, you need real verifiable substantiated data.

    So if it is not perfect by your own admission, why do INSIST that everything cited be listed there? If you are aware of pharmaceutical industry influence, why do you ignore it when you cite research that has been independently shown to be influenced by it? Why do you think that agencies which are part of the revolving door between regulators and industry are trustworthy? Case in point, Julie Gerberding, head of CDC who helped sell massive amounts of H1N1 in the hoax pandemic of 2009 and then rewarded by Merck by being given the position of head of international vaccine sales. Or would you prefer that we looked to unbiased experts like Paul Offitt who is a vaccine insider millionaire and sitting in a chair at CHoP funded by Merck to the tune of $1.5 million?

    Like

  74. Howie
    May 18, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    Thank you for your support mr michaels!! As an additional point, why does Suzy’s reference to an IOM safety report get ignored when it is from of your canned preapproved sources Chris?

    Like

  75. Chris
    May 18, 2013 at 8:20 pm

    Howie, answer the question. What vaccine company paid for that paper?

    Mr. Michaels, I prefer real data to conspiracy theories. You, and all of the sock puppets, are all just using “pharma is bad” as excuses to ignore the real evidence.

    Like

  76. Jean
    May 18, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    In 2008, Dr. Louis Cooper, vaccine inventor and former president of the AAP, wrote that the total vaccine safety budget was $20 million, or 0.5% of the $4 billion total vaccine budget for purchase, promotion, and delivery of vaccines. At a time when vaccine damage is so high and parents are so frightened, it seems irresponsible to devote so little money or effort to investigating vaccine safety. Public Trust in Immunization in Ped. 122:1 pp. 149-153.

    Like

  77. Jean
    May 18, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    It reminds me of how, in the UK, when parents were terrified of the MMR, but many were willing to give their children the individual vaccines for measles, mumps, and rubella, the manufacturer stopped making them. And then feigned surprise when many parents declined it altogether. Maybe the my way or the highway approach is no longer working.

    Like

  78. Jean
    May 18, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    /Chris,
    Has there been any breakthrough in vaccine safety since 2002? Or just a push push push of any and all vaccines? Asthma rates continue to be very high, one in nine now. 18 babies died of pertussis last year, but many more people died of asthma, nearly always caused by the pertussis vaccine. And, of course, autism rates through the roof. Babies are continuing to regress into autism after the MMR. So what progress since the IoM report (one of many of a similar tenor).

    Like

  79. Jean
    May 18, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    And Julie Gerberding said in talking about the Hannah Poling case that in some instances, vaccines could cause autism in children. And then, in the same interview, she said they didn’t. Doublespeak? If she cares about children more than Merck profits, why?

    Like

  80. Jean
    May 18, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    contd from #66: .. death. No epidemiological studies that address this, either in terms of exposure or outcome. No vax/unvax study. No studies looking at things like infections, allergy, or diabetes. Thus, the committee recognizes with some discomfort that this report addresses only part of the overall set of concerns of some who are most wary about the safety of childhood vaccines.

    Like

  81. Gray Falcon
    May 19, 2013 at 12:28 am

    [citation needed]

    Like

  82. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:01 am

    Jean:

    Has there been any breakthrough in vaccine safety since 2002?

    Yes. At least ten years of research that still shows there is no correlation between vaccines and autism. Here is one example: Genetics and the myth of vaccine encephalopathy.

    Try to come up to speed, and learn how to post real citations. And go read about the Belmont Report, when you are finished design a vax/unvax study that complies to it, get funding, then go do it.

    Like

  83. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 2:28 am

    Chris :
    Howie, answer the question. What vaccine company paid for that paper?
    Mr. Michaels, I prefer real data to conspiracy theories. You, and all of the sock puppets, are all just using “pharma is bad” as excuses to ignore the real evidence.

    You cite a meaningless paper on parental behavior that has no relevance to safety, bias or efficacy and try to use it to prove something completely unrelated. I have provided you with an independent study of undue industry influence and you ignore it. Your game is so obvious as to be laughable that you continue with it. You are like the emperor’s new clothes. All of your supporters pretend that you have beautiful clothes while the rest of us are laughing at your self delusion.

    Like

  84. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 2:42 am

    The only industry to be found worse than the pharmaceutical industry for fraudulent marketing and illegal behavior is the banking industry, and pharma may well have surpassed them now. It’s pretty common knowledge among people who care to check now that the Merck MMR vaccine mumps efficacy testing was faked to corner the market. As the lawsuit progresses, proof of the crime has already been submitted to the courts, its only a matter of time unless Merck pleads out to avoid a full trial. The proof of the fraud is in the outbreak of mumps among college students. Their fraud has taken a benign, though uncomfortable, childhood illness and pushed it forward to adult men who have much higher risks of complications. A job well done.

    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm

    Like

  85. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 2:45 am

    (Reuters) – A Boston federal judge on Thursday sentenced Merck & Co to pay a $321 million criminal fine for improperly marketing its Vioxx painkiller a decade ago.

    The U.S. drugmaker pleaded guilty in recent months to having illegally promoted Vioxx for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis before it was approved for that use in 2002. The pill, approved in 1999 as a painkiller, was withdrawn from the market in 2004 after it was linked to risk of heart attack and stroke.

    “Federal prosecutors in Boston said Merck illegally promoted Vioxx for rheumatoid arthritis for three years, continuing to do so after being reprimanded in September 2001 by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

    In a related settlement reached in November, Merck agreed to pay more than $600 million to the federal government, 43 states and the District of Columbia for a wider range of alleged improprieties. But it did not acknowledge any wrongdoing in the civil settlement.

    (Reuters) – A Boston federal judge on Thursday sentenced Merck & Co to pay a $321 million criminal fine for improperly marketing its Vioxx painkiller a decade ago.

    The U.S. drugmaker pleaded guilty in recent months to having illegally promoted Vioxx for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis before it was approved for that use in 2002. The pill, approved in 1999 as a painkiller, was withdrawn from the market in 2004 after it was linked to risk of heart attack and stroke.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/19/us-merck-vioxx-idUSBRE83I1EE20120419

    Like

  86. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 2:50 am

    Independent reviews have shown that pharma cheat at every opportunity to make themselves and their products look better than they are, hide negative results and work tirelessly to promote off label (unapproved) use of products and have been caught bribing doctors to prescribe their products. (Wiley and Cochrane) AND THAT’S IN THE FIELDS WHERE THEY CAN STILL BE HELD LIABLE!!!! Can you honestly say that such a corrupt industry would behave better in a segment of their business which is completely immune from liability? If you believe that than you are completely deluded.

    I actually don’t believe that you are deluded though. You are too lucid to be completely bonkers, so that only leave the possibility that you are part of the fraud.

    Like

  87. May 19, 2013 at 7:59 am

    @Howie – so you can’t actually argue the facts (since we’ve been the ones posting all of the citations), so you attempt to side-step them by throwing out “Big Pharma” and the “Pharma-Shill” gambit too?

    Pathetic.

    Like

  88. My3sons
    May 19, 2013 at 8:52 am

    I have tried to post a comment with 5 PubMed citations, 3 times, and yes, I also emailed it to Christine yesterday. Maybe my calm thoughtful comments are no longer welcomed here. I keep getting…your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Like

  89. May 19, 2013 at 9:08 am

    @My3Sons – who knows, unfortunately, due to the high volume of troll posts, the spam settings have been set extremely high (I know of one particular letter combination c i a) that will guarantee a post doesn’t get through.

    Like

  90. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 10:00 am

    What “facts” am I not arguing? Pharma (Merck, Pfizer and GSK among others) have all conceded fraud and bribery cases against them. Concession equals admission. Admission equals fact. You are the one in denial here, not me. Your beloved industry is admitting to these things and you pretend that they are whiter than white. Cognitive dissonance anyone? Or is it in your contract to not concede points you employers have already conceded?

    My3sons, try just posting the Pubmed reference numbers.

    Like

  91. May 19, 2013 at 10:25 am

    @Howie – the pharma-shill gambit is old….and I guess you’ve conceded that Rubella was actually a huge problem & resulted in the deaths of large numbers of children, right?

    Like

  92. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Susan :
    From Institute of Medicine reports on vaccine safety: 2002: “epdemiological and clinical evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between multiple immunizations and an increased risk of allergic disease, particularly asthma…Committee unable to address the concern…that exposure of a suscepible or fragile child to multiple vaccines over the develomental period may also produce atypical or nonspecific immune or nervous system injury that could lead to severe disability or

    I guess people could do worse than see the latest IOM report from 2013, entitled:
    “Childhood Immunization and Safety”
    http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx

    “Upon reviewing stakeholder concerns and scientific literature regarding the entire childhood immunization schedule, the IOM committee finds no evidence that the schedule is unsafe. The committee’s review did not reveal an evidence base suggesting that the U.S. childhood immunization schedule is linked to autoimmune diseases, asthma, hypersensitivity, seizures, child developmental disorders, learning or developmental disorders, or attention deficit or disruptive disorders.”

    Like

  93. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 11:10 am

    Howie :
    What “facts” am I not arguing? Pharma (Merck, Pfizer and GSK among others) have all conceded fraud and bribery cases against them. Concession equals admission. Admission equals fact. You are the one in denial here, not me. Your beloved industry is admitting to these things and you pretend that they are whiter than white. Cognitive dissonance anyone? Or is it in your contract to not concede points you employers have already conceded?
    My3sons, try just posting the Pubmed reference numbers.

    Pharma companies are no angels, but that doesn’t mean the vaccines are ineffective or unsafe.
    If you have evidence to suggest they are, please post it, rather than rehashing your innuendo.

    Like

  94. Susan
    May 19, 2013 at 11:28 am

    Chris,
    If vaccine encephalitis is a myth, then why does the Merck Manual state that vaccines can cause life (and brain) threatening conditions like encephalitis? Routine Vaccinations, www. merck.com/mmpe/sec14/ch169/ch169b.html In its section on encephalitis, it states that encephalitis can be caused either by a disease or by a vaccine: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec06/ch089/ch089f.html
    Why does the package insert of every vaccine warn in its list of reported side effects that encephalitis has been reported to have been caused by every vaccine? Why is prolonged, inconsolable or high-pitched screaming (le cri encéphalique) that goes on for three hours or more included in warnings to parents as symptoms of a vaccine reaction, a symptom of encephalitis?

    Like

  95. Pete M
    May 19, 2013 at 11:58 am

    Thank you Howie!

    Dingo, “Pharma companies are no angels, but that doesn’t mean the vaccines are ineffective or unsafe.”

    It also means you can’t assume that vaccines are effective and/or safe. In other words, we don’t know what to think, because they can’t be trusted.

    Like

  96. Lawrence
    May 19, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @pete – because we don’t “assume,” we look at all of the available data, from all sources, that show that vaccines are safe, effective and magnitudes better than the diseases they prevent .

    Like

  97. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Howie:

    You cite a meaningless paper on parental behavior that has no relevance to safety,

    I see you did not read the paper. What vaccine company is behind that paper, which explains that over eighty people in Japan died from measles.

    My3sons, I have sent at least three comments to Ms. Vara that have never shown up.

    Susan:

    If vaccine encephalitis is a myth, then why does the Merck Manual state that vaccines can cause life (and brain) threatening conditions like encephalitis?

    Try reading the actual paper, not just the title. The link you posted only mentions vaccines in passing, but not the rate when it said:

    A virus directly infects the brain.
    A virus that caused an infection in the past becomes reactivated and directly damages the brain.
    A virus or vaccine triggers a reaction that makes the immune system attack brain tissue (an autoimmune reaction).

    Package inserts are lawyer written COA bits that do not make the rates clear.

    Susan, what is the rate of encephalitis with the MMR vaccine versus measles (which is one in a thousand). Provide proper citations.

    Like

  98. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    By the way, My3sons, it is because of the repeating sock puppets that the moderation robot is so annoying. You need to politely ask the Howies, Joes, Zoes, Susan, Suzy, Petes etc. to stop. But they don’t seem to care.

    Like

  99. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Pete M :
    Thank you Howie!
    Dingo, “Pharma companies are no angels, but that doesn’t mean the vaccines are ineffective or unsafe.”
    It also means you can’t assume that vaccines are effective and/or safe. In other words, we don’t know what to think, because they can’t be trusted.

    Except that the products (vaccines) are studied by a range of people to ensure they actually do what they say on the tin. If you want proof of the efficacy of any vaccine, I am happy to provide the evidence, with links (assuming you wish to engage in discussion, and not just trolling)

    Like

  100. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Two points… First for Lawrence… I have conceded nothing. Is that how your brain works. You make assertions and when called out to substantiate you obfuscate and ignore the requests or give irrelevant citations and after a period of time you claim concession? What planet are you on? Or can you substantiate the confirmed cases?

    Like

  101. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    And for dingo, $2 billion in payouts for vaccine damage is proof that vaccines are harmful, and that is after most cases are rejected of hassled out of being pursued. In many cases the government concedes the damage. Concession equals admission equals fact!

    As far as the IOM not finding a safety issue, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

    Like

  102. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    “By the way, My3sons, it is because of the repeating sock puppets that the moderation robot is so annoying. You need to politely ask the Howies, Joes, Zoes, Susan, Suzy, Petes etc. to stop. But they don’t seem to care.”

    So what you are saying Chris is that you would rather be surrounded by ‘yes men’ then actually see that people have differing views?

    Like

  103. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    Dingo: “Except that the products (vaccines) are studied by a range of people to ensure they actually do what they say on the tin. If you want proof of the efficacy of any vaccine, I am happy to provide the evidence, with links (assuming you wish to engage in discussion, and not just trolling)”

    http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf

    Read it, the FULL report. It includes links to all of the documents that prove that your almighty and infallible industry and government experts have know and actively hidden the dangers of vaccines.

    Like

  104. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    Susan :
    Chris,
    If vaccine encephalitis is a myth, then why does the Merck Manual state that vaccines can cause life (and brain) threatening conditions like encephalitis? Routine Vaccinations, www. merck.com/mmpe/sec14/ch169/ch169b.html In its section on encephalitis, it states that encephalitis can be caused either by a disease or by a vaccine: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec06/ch089/ch089f.html

    Susan, firstly I have found no-one saying vaccines do not cause encephalitis. You say this is regarded as a “myth”… please can you link to someone on this blog who has ever said that vaccines never cause encephalitis, and I will give $20 for whichever charity you wish me to give it to through something like “Just Giving”. I will send you the receipt.

    Second, the infections will cause encephalitis several orders of magnitude more often than would any vaccine. For example, measles causes encephalitis around one for every 500 cases, but measles vaccine causes encephalitis around one in a million vaccines. You do the sums.

    Like

  105. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Howie, an editorial from someone who is just cherry picking data? Why is she try to publish vaccine papers in a chemistry journal: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/08/and-global-warming-is-caused-by-the-decr/

    And chemistry journal that is part of a wonky pay to publish model: http://www.popehat.com/2013/05/15/omics-publishing-group-makes-a-billion-dollar-threat/

    Like

  106. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Howie :
    Dingo: “Except that the products (vaccines) are studied by a range of people to ensure they actually do what they say on the tin. If you want proof of the efficacy of any vaccine, I am happy to provide the evidence, with links (assuming you wish to engage in discussion, and not just trolling)”
    http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf
    Read it, the FULL report. It includes links to all of the documents that prove that your almighty and infallible industry and government experts have know and actively hidden the dangers of vaccines.

    I have read that woman’s efforts to rubbish vaccines, and find them unconvincing. The articles are cherrypicked, citations are misrepresented and grossly exaggerated.
    When scientists look at evidence, they look at the totality of evidence, not just the bits they wish to use for their own propaganda purposes.

    Like

  107. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Oh is that how it works? If I say with just and rational cause that pharma studies are biased, fixed and in many cases downright fraudulent and provide proof that this is part and parcel with industry “business as usual” (which I have done), it is just an opinion, yet when you say that “I don’t find it convincing” and “oh, it’s cherry picked” with no substantiation it is gospel? Your hypocrisy is beyond the pale!

    Like

  108. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    But I should add a big thank you for showing your true colors so transparently.

    Like

  109. novalox
    May 19, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    @howie

    Again, invoking the pharma shill gambit is a sure sign that you have nothing to support your argument.

    Like

  110. Laurie
    May 19, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    Chris,
    The article you cited about the myth of vaccine encephalopathy stated that those with a preeexisting mitochondrial disorder are prone to encephalopathic reactions, but since mito disorders are so rare, no one should worry about that before getting vaccines. But 85% of autistic children tested have been shown to have mito disorder, and numerous studies have shown that vaccines can cause mito disorder, rather than its being an inborn condition. Mercury binds so tightly to the electron transporting system on a cellular level that it causes so much oxidative stress that it results in mitochondrial damage. It may be that other vaccine ingredients produce a similar result. The bottom line is that parents had better be extremely sure that their child is in so much danger from a vaccine-preventable disease that the dangers of vaccines, both known and unknown, are a justifiable risk. Every time a child or adult gets any shot he risks severe and permanent damage or death. And they’d better be very cognizant of the vested interests that most of those in the medical complex have.

    Like

  111. Lawrence
    May 19, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    @laurie – please provide the actual evidence to back up your assertions.

    Like

  112. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    “@howie
    Again, invoking the pharma shill gambit is a sure sign that you have nothing to support your argument.”

    Hardly an inspiring comment given the substance of my comments.

    Like

  113. Howie
    May 19, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    “@laurie – please provide the actual evidence to back up your assertions.”

    That’s funny! Still waiting for your evidence on confirmed rubella cases…

    Like

  114. novalox
    May 19, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    @howie

    You first made the assertions, you have so fa failed to supply any evidence supporting your assertions, and have repeatedly insulted and made false accusations against regular posters here, by using the pharma shill gambit.

    Again, why should we believe you if you are going to lie and not present any evidence?

    Like

  115. dingo199
    May 19, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    testing – (missing comments)

    Like

  116. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    Laurie:

    But 85% of autistic children tested have been shown to have mito disorder, and numerous studies have shown that vaccines can cause mito disorder, rather than its being an inborn condition.

    Citation needed.

    Like

  117. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    Laurie:

    Mercury binds so tightly to the electron transporting system on a cellular level that it causes so much oxidative stress that it results in mitochondrial damage.

    What vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal? Do not mention influenza since four of the eight approved for children do not have thimerosal. Also, just in case you have problems with basic math: four is half of eight, and therefore not most.

    Like

  118. Cérise
    May 19, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    # Lawrence 98:
    What a silly thing to say. If you read non-pharma sourced vaccine/VPD information (Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Randall Neustaedter, Vaccine Epidemic, Hilary Butler, Wendy Lydall, Aviva Jill Romm, Judy Converse, Evidence of Harm, The Age of Autism, Jamie Murphy, Neil Miller, and many more) you will be surprised by the high quality of their investigation and explanations, and be much, much more afraid of the vaccines than of the diseases.

    Like

  119. Cérise
    May 19, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    Chris,
    S James Metabolic biomarkers of increased oxidative stress and impaired methylation capacity in children with autism, Toxicology 2010 Jul-Aug 274 (1-3) 1-9.
    85% of children tested had mito disorder.

    Like

  120. Cérise
    May 19, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    Chris,
    So it’s all right to damage the children whose mothers don’t realize that they’d better be very careful about specifying that they don’t want their child to get a mercury-containing flu shot? Le’s say that it’s a mother who doesn’t care, who isn’t afraid of any amount of mercury injected into her child. Does that make it all right to damage the child? Does the child’s safety not count? Why are there still any flu vaccines being made with thimerosal?

    Like

  121. Cérise
    May 19, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    How ironic that Zorro is able to get through when a lot of the in-house commenters are filtered out!

    Like

  122. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    Cérise, that is about an ingredient in a petri dish (” in vitro”). There were no children involved.

    “85% of children tested had mito disorder.”

    Citation needed.

    “Le’s say that it’s a mother who doesn’t care, who isn’t afraid of any amount of mercury injected into her child.”

    Several states have laws that children and pregnant women only get thimerosal free vaccines. So what vaccine are you worried about? Be specific and tell us how often it is used. Or just tell us which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Just don’t include influenza, because half have no thimerosal.

    Also, why can’t you choose a name and just stick with it? The use of sock puppets is just pathetic.

    Like

  123. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    Cérise, who is Zorro? I don’t see anyone commenting with that ‘nym on this page.

    Like

  124. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 5:05 am

    Cérise :# Lawrence 98:What a silly thing to say. If you read non-pharma sourced vaccine/VPD information (Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Randall Neustaedter, Vaccine Epidemic, Hilary Butler, Wendy Lydall, Aviva Jill Romm, Judy Converse, Evidence of Harm, The Age of Autism, Jamie Murphy, Neil Miller, and many more) you will be surprised by the high quality of their investigation and explanations, and be much, much more afraid of the vaccines than of the diseases.

    Cerise, care to answer these questions?

    1. If you wanted reliable information on space flight, would you go to NASA experts or beleive what a farmer told you about little green aliens abducting his cows?

    2. You will at least know the answer to this, since you have read all the sources you mention. Tell us, how often will natural mumps cause aseptic meningitis?
    1 in a million?
    1 in 1000?
    1 in 10?
    And now tell us how often the current mumps vaccine causes it.

    Like

  125. Mr Michaels the thrid
    May 20, 2013 at 5:55 am

    You know, it’s been a long time since I have been on here before this week. It’s good to see that little has changed. The same old shills, a couple with new names, arguing the same old logical fallacies and sharp shooter claims. It really is quite funny, really!

    Let’s see, as I recall the last time I followed this there were around 160 followers. That was back before Christmas. Now there are 198. This ECBT/AAP mouthpiece is really going nowhere fast. Meanwhile we have seen MMR vaccine failures, pertussis vaccine failures and the CDC admitting that the flu vax is largely ineffective (but get it anyway cause it’s all we got!).

    The tide is turning against vaccines. It is obvious by the frenzy of “coincidental” attempts in numerous States to ban exemptions and make vaccines 100% compulsory that the jig is up. The “public health” mantra is nothing but a collectivist attempt at appealing to independent people to “join in” for our mutual benefit. Of course, when persuasion fails, the collectivist always resort to force which is anathematic to freedom. So if anyone is actually perusing this blog site for the first time, take note that the supporters are really only using public health as the excuse to rob you of even more freedom than the Government has already taken.

    Like

  126. Mr Michaels the thrid
    May 20, 2013 at 6:29 am

    Oh, and as a bonus for you Chris, here is an article on the new “autism” vaccine. You know, the one that is supposed to treat the novel bowel issues that Wakefield found but couldn’t be true because he is a fraud? How ironic that the research has been dismissed as not reproducible yet a vaccine has been worked on to potentially deal with it. Did is say “ironic”? Maybe I should have said “criminal”….

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424112309.htm

    Like

  127. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 7:08 am

    Mr Michaels the thrid? Why should we trust someone who can’t even spell his name right? And by the way, calling us “shills” is libel, and proof of your lack of honesty.

    Like

  128. Mr Michaels the third
    May 20, 2013 at 7:52 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Mr Michaels the thrid? Why should we trust someone who can’t even spell his name right? And by the way, calling us “shills” is libel, and proof of your lack of honesty.

    Are you on overtime for such an early start? It is also libel to call people “trolls” but you do it incessantly. And sorry about the letter reversal, it was done many months ago when certain moderators were blocking any and all who dared challenge the site dogma.

    You may wish to actually look up the meaning of words before you spout off about anything. Honesty or dishonesty have nothing to do with your claim of “libel”, unless, or course, you have provided some evidence that you are not a paid employee or consultant. Protestations do not count, citation please. How about your linked in account or some other proof of what you do, maybe even your real name instead of your silly ‘nym so we can all be free to investigate your denials.

    Incidentally, I notice that you have not challenged any of my point or citations, but instead have chosen the ad hominem route. The “shill” label comes from the behavior. You know, if it talks like a duck and walks like a duck….

    Like

  129. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 9:02 am

    “Troll” refers to acts and behaviors online. “Shill” is a direct accusation of specific offline activities, and requires evidence for those allegations.

    I did read the article. Nothing saying vaccines caused the bacteria growth, and nothing saying said growth caused autism. The bacteria only made existing autism worse, mostly through sheer discomfort.

    Like

  130. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:02 am

    Mr. Michaels that press release was all speculation. That is is why it said anything would take at least ten years.

    And, it was not even the same thing that Wakefield claimed (measles in the gut). By the way, where is he legally allowed to practice medicine?

    Like

  131. My3sons
    May 20, 2013 at 9:03 am

    What is with the “comment awaiting moderation” crap?? Awaiting moderation for 3 days? Can anyone see comment #’s 65, 74, and 131?

    Like

  132. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:16 am

    My3sons, at least you get the “comment waiting moderation.” My comments just disappear.

    Like

  133. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:18 am

    Like the first version of that one did. Did you see the explanation in comment #91?

    Like

  134. My3sons
    May 20, 2013 at 9:24 am

    The comment I see numbered 91 is from Lawrence:

    @Howie – so you can’t actually argue the facts (since we’ve been the ones posting all of the citations), so you attempt to side-step them by throwing out “Big Pharma” and the “Pharma-Shill” gambit too?
    Pathetic.

    Like

  135. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 9:26 am

    Let’s see what Mr Michaels has actually offered:

    1. Deflection of accusations by using the “Tu quoque” fallacy? Check.
    2. Pharma shill gambit? Check.
    3. The “Vaccines-don’t-work-at-all-because-they-don’t-last-forever” ploy? Check.
    4. Lies that a vaccine with 60% efficacy is “ineffective”? Check.
    5. Delusions that there is some sort of tide “turning” against vaccines? Check.
    6. False dichotomy of claiming that the sensible strategy of ensuring “medical” exemptions to vaccines are fully informed implies “forcing” and “compulsion”? Check.
    7. Deliberate conflation of Wakefield’s misnamed “vaccine” (actually a concoction of transfer factor and not a vaccine in any biological sense) with a real vaccine? Check.

    Like

  136. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Hmmm… the Comment #91 I see is “@My3Sons – who knows, unfortunately, due to the high volume of troll posts, the spam settings have been set extremely high (I know of one particular letter combination c i a) that will guarantee a post doesn’t get through.”

    Like

  137. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:32 am

    My3sons, it seems that your comments are actually in moderation, so you can see them. Mine just disappear.

    Like

  138. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 9:33 am

    My3sons :The comment I see numbered 91 is from Lawrence:
    @Howie – so you can’t actually argue the facts (since we’ve been the ones posting all of the citations), so you attempt to side-step them by throwing out “Big Pharma” and the “Pharma-Shill” gambit too?Pathetic.

    My #91 from Lawrence says this:

    May 19, 2013 at 9:08 am | #91 Quote @My3Sons – who knows, unfortunately, due to the high volume of troll posts, the spam settings have been set extremely high (I know of one particular letter combination c i a) that will guarantee a post doesn’t get through.

    Like

  139. My3sons
    May 20, 2013 at 10:14 am

    So my awaiting moderation comments are throwing the number sequence off for me. I guess I can assume the comment will never clear moderation. Too bad…I always try to follow the rules and even listed PubMed citations in that particular comment. Surprised the comment calling another a B I T C H made it and not mine which followed posting guidelines.

    Like

  140. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Yeah, it is surprising. What is weird is that I never go into moderation, my comments just disappear. And I don’t have anything nasty in them either. Often times I just break up the comment into more than one.

    Like

  141. Matt
    May 20, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Dingo,
    But it’s lucky that the aseptic meningitis caused by mumps (one in a thousand cases) is nearly always self-limiting and easily treatable by antibiotics. You didn’t know that? The mumps vaccine can also cause aseptic meningitis. Both the disease and the vaccine can cause diabetes, ear infections, and both can cause orchitis in mature males. The vaccine can also cause thrombocytopenia, arthritis, optic neuritis, anaphylaxis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, pancreatitis, convulsions, seizures, and death. (Merck MMR package insert Dec. 2007). Mumps is a mild, self-limiting condition when children get it, although everyone should stay warm and quiet in bed throughout the illness.

    Like

  142. Cinzi
    May 20, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Mr. Michaels,
    I also thought it was interesting that they had come out with a vaccine for the GI disorder caused by vaccines, one roundly denied as even existing by those who attacked Dr. Wakefield. Thoughts on that, Chris and Lawrence? I thought Micah Mazurek’s research published last summer about “revealing for the first time” a link between autism and GI disorders was interesting too.
    My3Sons,
    It would be good if you could write me through anyone at Age of Autism.

    Like

  143. Perry
    May 20, 2013 at 11:12 am

    Chris,
    What are your thoughts on several states prohibiting mercury-containing flu vaccines for pregnant women and children? Why don’t they all prohibit it? It is clearly very dangerous. Or do you believe that mercury in vaccines is not dangerous for anyone? If that is the case, why do you even mention it?

    Like

  144. May 20, 2013 at 11:20 am

    @Perry – perhaps because Thimerosal isn’t mercury, the same as table salt isn’t sodium or chlorine……

    Like

  145. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 11:22 am

    Matt:

    But it’s lucky that the aseptic meningitis caused by mumps (one in a thousand cases) is nearly always self-limiting and easily treatable by antibiotics.

    Citation needed to show that an antibiotic treats something caused by a virus.

    Cinzi:

    I also thought it was interesting that they had come out with a vaccine for the GI disorder caused by vaccines,

    What vaccine has come out? The article said it would take over ten years.

    Perry, that legislators make laws despite there being no evidence to support them. But what it does mean is that the “thimerosal in vaccines” argument is ten years out of date. The only reason I mention it is to ask those who still drag it out like Jen, Laurie and Cérise which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Have you actually read what I wrote?

    Like

  146. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Dingo:

    “Except that the products (vaccines) are studied by a range of people to ensure they actually do what they say on the tin. If you want proof of the efficacy of any vaccine, I am happy to provide the evidence, with links (assuming you wish to engage in discussion, and not just trolling)”

    It went right over your head. The point is, Pharma can not be trusted.

    Like

  147. May 20, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    @Peter – define “Pharma” because there are mountains of evidence from various research institutions & safety agencies from all over the world (not to mention educational institutions, etc).

    Like

  148. Allie
    May 20, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Lawrence,
    Thmerosal is half ethylmercury by weight. The Canadian government did a study which found that ethylmercury was no more than “presumed” to be safer than methylmercury. The danger of the mercury is in no way attenuated by using it into thimerosal. Deadliest toxin (among the non-radioactive) known to man, it kills neurons on contact, faster and more completely than even aluminum. That’s what half of this fuss is about. If you were to read the books The Age of Autism and Evidence of Harm, then you would have some idea of what half this fuss is about.

    Like

  149. Allie
    May 20, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Chris,
    Meningitis can be either viral or bacterial in origin. Bacterial meningititis can be treated with antibiotics. On mumps meningitis being self-limited: http://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/mumps.asp
    Mumps meningitis rarely leaves permanent damage.

    Like

  150. May 20, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    @allie – please detail your evidence of those assertions…

    Like

  151. My3sons
    May 20, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Reasonable doubt. That is what you are up against. Parents have it, and for good reason:

    pubmed/20065190
    pubmed/19426930
    /pubmed/20872775
    /pubmed/21838178
    /pubmed/22491278

    If you really believed in the efficacy of vaccines you would be trying to convince the medical, research, and pharmaceutical industries to eliminate COI. It’s the root of the problem, parents no longer trust the source of the “science”. You can present all the COI laden pub med indexed articles you like. The savvy ones in those industries recognize the problem, if you truly cared, you would too.

    I once worked for a doctor that sent out an anonymous survey to see why his business had dropped off. He hadn’t a clue what the issue was, but his staff did, it was his condescending dissmissive attitude toward his patients. You know the type… “Just do as I say, you couldn’t possibly understand if I explained it to you because you don’t have the medical degree.” coming out of his office after reading those surveys he proclaimed: “I searched for the enemy, and the enemy is me.”

    The industry and it’s COI are the enemy, not the parents who question it!

    Like

  152. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Matt :
    Dingo,
    But it’s lucky that the aseptic meningitis caused by mumps (one in a thousand cases) is nearly always self-limiting and easily treatable by antibiotics. You didn’t know that? The mumps vaccine can also cause aseptic meningitis. Both the disease and the vaccine can cause diabetes, ear infections, and both can cause orchitis in mature males. The vaccine can also cause thrombocytopenia, arthritis, optic neuritis, anaphylaxis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, pancreatitis, convulsions, seizures, and death. (Merck MMR package insert Dec. 2007). Mumps is a mild, self-limiting condition when children get it, although everyone should stay warm and quiet in bed throughout the illness.

    I know more about aseptic meningitis than you will ever know, mate. I used to do paediatrics, when mumps meningitis was the commonest sort of meningitis we ever admitted to hospital. Here are some facts to counter your misinformation:

    1. The rate of aseptic meningitis is around 1 in 10 with natural mumps (and not 1 in 1000).

    2. The rate with Jeryl Lynn strain mumps vaccine is less than 1 in a million.

    3. Yes, aseptic meningitis is always self limiting, and pretty harmless, although very unpleasant.

    4. It cannot be “treated by antibiotics”. It’s a mumps VIRUS, capiche?

    5. If it is so “harmless”, then why do antivaxers scare people about the tiny risk of getting it 1 time in a million with the vaccine, but quite blase about the 1 in 10 risk from the disease?

    6. The vaccine has a very low rate of other side effects, often 2 or 3 orders of magnitude lower than the complications of the natural mumps illness.

    7. The MUMPS vaccine does not cause the complications you think it does. If you bothered to read, you would see we are discussing only mumps vaccine, and not MMR.

    8. In the pre-vaccine era, only 90% of children caught mumps before they were 13. In other words, the other 10% caught it when they were teens/adults (when they are susceptible to complications like orchitis). Orchitis is adults is another “scary” thing that antivaxers like to talk about, because it universal vaccination for mumps shifts up the age range of the small proportion of the population catching mumps. But the numbers of over 13s catching mumps was still far, far higher in the prevaccine era than it is now.

    9. Please put all the socks back in a drawer, and stick to one username.

    Like

  153. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Allie :
    Chris,
    Meningitis can be either viral or bacterial in origin. Bacterial meningititis can be treated with antibiotics. On mumps meningitis being self-limited: http://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/mumps.asp
    Mumps meningitis rarely leaves permanent damage.

    Quite agree, totally.
    So why do antivaxers like Wakefield talk about the “dreadful, lethal” complication of aseptic meningitis from the mumps component of MMR vaccine then, huh?
    Huh???

    Like

  154. May 20, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    Allie:

    Thmerosal is half ethylmercury by weight. The Canadian government did a study which found that ethylmercury was no more than “presumed” to be safer than methylmercury.

    Citation needed for that study. Again, which vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    Allie:

    Meningitis can be either viral or bacterial in origin.

    Except this subject was mumps. Mumps can lead to permanent hearing loss: PMID: 19209100

    Like

  155. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    My3sons, the first one is on oncology, a very lucrative pharmaceutical field. Has nothing to do with vaccines.

    The second is interesting on general pharmaceuticals, but doctors are not the only ones deciding that children get vaccines.

    The third is an editorial. And how many lunches do doctors get to make sure they follow the ACIP recommendations and public school requirements?

    The fourth and fifth are editorials.

    If you wish to discuss COI, then you need to apply that criteria to Wakefield, Geier and the rest. Look at this paper and tell me how to interpret the following:
    “This work was supported by the Katlyn Fox and the Dwoskin Family Foundations.”

    The Dwoskin Family Foundation sponsored the “vaccine safety” conference attended by Wakefield, Shaw, and Barbara Loe Fisher a couple of years ago. Why is that not a COI?

    Like

  156. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    More about that conference and the Dwoskin family:
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/10/06/the-2011-vaccine-safety-conference-in-jamaica/

    Do tell us exactly how the studies sponsored by the CDC, NHS, and public health departments around this planet are influenced by “Big Pharma.” You can start with the studies done at the Royal Free that were offered to Wakefield, but he decided to leave instead:
    PMID: 10376617
    PMID: 11850369
    PMID: 12876158

    Then you can go through this list of Vaccine Safety Datalink studies and tell us which were unduly influenced by which pharmaceutical companies. And don’t just give generalities, be specific on which study and which pharmaceutical company, with quotes from the actual papers.

    Like

  157. Beth
    May 20, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    This is an interesting subject. According to this article, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/best_of_a_of_a.html
    Merck increased the mumps component of the MMR from 5,000 to 20,000 units in 1990, the beginning of the autism epidemic. Then, in 2007, it quietly reduced the amount of mumps virus down to 12,500 units. It may be that mumps meningitis caused by the MMR is more dangerous than that caused by the disease because of its interaction with the other two live viruses in the MMR.

    Like

  158. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    Tell me, Beth, do you believe that the hateful stew of lies called “The Protocols of The Elders of Zion” is reality? The guy who runs whate.to does, among other things.

    Like

  159. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Beth :
    This is an interesting subject. According to this article, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/best_of_a_of_a.html
    Merck increased the mumps component of the MMR from 5,000 to 20,000 units in 1990, the beginning of the autism epidemic. Then, in 2007, it quietly reduced the amount of mumps virus down to 12,500 units. It may be that mumps meningitis caused by the MMR is more dangerous than that caused by the disease because of its interaction with the other two live viruses in the MMR.

    Whale??? Citing Olmsted?? You cannot be serious??
    Of course, anyone can “claim” absolutely anything, but that doesn’t make it so, nor constitute a valid conclusion or provide evidence for the claim. For example I could claim that the reason it rained in Jakarta on Sunday was because an antivaxer flapped his wings in Ohio.
    Your idea that vaccine induced meningitis is more serious is just an utter fabrication, completely baseless, scurrilously speculative and totally lacking in any clinical evidence base.

    Like

  160. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Gray Falcon, so are you saying you don’t trust the guy who runs w.to? But you believe everything that comes out from Big Pharma – right?

    Like

  161. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray Falcon, so are you saying you don’t trust the guy who runs w.to? But you believe everything that comes out from Big Pharma – right?

    “Big Pharma” isn’t my source of information. I know you keep saying that, but we’ve proven to you time and again several independent sources also support vaccination.

    Like

  162. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    Gray Falcon, if that were the case then drugs wouldn’t be put out in the market that kills people. The bottom line is Big Pharma controls it all,one way or another.

    Like

  163. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    So recently we have had numerous antivaccine sockpuppet trolls emerge, only to studiously avoid answering any questions.
    Welcome Beth/Allie/Matt/Peter/Cinzi/Perry/Cerise/Howie/PeteM/whomever.

    Your tactic seems to be:
    1. Post a comment/accusation using a fake account and pseudonym.
    2. Ignore the followup posts which refute your own post, and never ever respond to any questions yourself. Avoid engagement at all costs – that way lies the risk of revealing your scientific bankruptcy.
    3. Repeat steps 1 and 2, ad nauseam.

    Like

  164. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    Peter, at least you haven’t got lost in the washing machine, yet.
    Care to answer Gray Falcon’s enquiry as to how you define “Big Pharma”?

    Like

  165. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray Falcon, if that were the case then drugs wouldn’t be put out in the market that kills people. The bottom line is Big Pharma controls it all,one way or another.

    Where were the articles showing the dangers of badly-tested drugs first published? Who were the ones showing the danger? If “Big Pharma” truly controlled everything, then why are the scientific journals, the ones supposedly under their thumb, always the ones to reveal the dangers?

    Like

  166. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Dingo, in regards to your comment 165. Possiblybecause the conversations here are not very civilized and people don’t like being talked down to etc. before the conversation even begins. That’s just my guess.

    As for Big Pharma? The term refres to the largest players in the pharmaceutical industry.

    Like

  167. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    Gray Falcon, those journals etc…wait too late to reveal anything until after the money is made and/or in many cases never reveal anything at all.

    Like

  168. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    Peter M :
    Dingo, in regards to your comment 165. Possiblybecause the conversations here are not very civilized and people don’t like being talked down to etc. before the conversation even begins. That’s just my guess.

    It’s very hard not to talk down to someone if you need to explain very basic concepts to them.

    As for Big Pharma? The term refres to the largest players in the pharmaceutical industry.

    They don’t control everything. They can’t control everything. I know how large players in the industry work. If you ask three of them what direction an elevator is going, you’ll get four different answers.

    Like

  169. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray Falcon, those journals etc…wait too late to reveal anything until after the money is made and/or in many cases never reveal anything at all.

    Got any evidence for that? If Big Pharma really had the power you claim in does, then why did Vioxx get withdrawn?

    Like

  170. dingo199
  171. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    I don’t need to check out anything, it happens all of the time and is recorded. Big Pharma comes out with a new drug and they know it isn’t safe. The put it out anyway and do everything they can to keep putting it out until it gets shut down. They have a long history of this type of behavior. Frankly, I don’t know how you can even debate it. Sorry.

    Like

  172. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    Sorry to wander off topic, but the discovery that vioxx had a significant cardiac mortality was made by clinical researchers who are presumably part of waht Peter calls “BigPharma”. So I guess we can’t trust them either?
    Does that mean Vioxx is alright after all, and there is no problem?

    Refs: blockquote>Graham DJ, Campen DH, Cheetham C, Hui R, Spence M, Ray WA.
    Risk of acute myocardial infarction and sudden cardiac death with
    use of COX-2 selective and non-selective NSAIDs. Presented at the
    Annual Meeting of the International Society for Pharmacoepidemiology, Bordeaux, France, 2004.

    Solomon DH, Schneeweiss S, Glynn RJ, et al. Relationship
    between selective cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitors and acute myocardial infarction in older adults. Circulation 2004; 109:2068–2073.

    Ray WA, Stein CM, Daugherty JR, Hall K, Arbogast PG, Griffin MR.
    COX-2 selective non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and risk of
    serious coronary heart disease. Lancet 2002; 360:1071–1073.

    Ray WA, Stein CM, Hall K, Daugherty JR, Griffin MR. Non-steroidal
    anti-inflammatory drugs and risk of serious coronary heart disease: an observational cohort study. Lancet 2002; 359:118–123.

    Like

  173. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    So what…you’re do-gooders found one problem out of how many that aren’t found and that are covered up for profit. You’re not giving me much confidence.

    Like

  174. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Peter M :
    I don’t need to check out anything, it happens all of the time and is recorded. Big Pharma comes out with a new drug and they know it isn’t safe. The put it out anyway and do everything they can to keep putting it out until it gets shut down. They have a long history of this type of behavior. Frankly, I don’t know how you can even debate it. Sorry.

    Can you please post a list of all the drugs which have been “shut down” because they were not safe and where it was demonstrated the company knew it wasn’t safe?
    Vioxx is one. We’ve done that.

    Care to list others, with the evidence and links?
    Presumably your generalisations about BigPharma will implicate every single drug ever released? So can you present the information on a few antibiotics, for example, then we can discuss?

    PS I see you are already backing out of the debate, or preparing the ground to withdraw…

    Like

  175. May 20, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    @dingo – they complain that “Big Pharma” is all powerful & covering up everything, then in the next breath, they’ll point out all the times these same companies have been fined or voluntarily pulled drugs from the market as evidence too…..so, you’d think, if they were as powerful as anti-vax people say, why would they ever get fined, bother with the regulatory process, or even publish data at all?

    You can’t have it both ways…..

    Like

  176. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    The idea that bigpharma “do gooders” found one problem, so there must be dozens of others undetected is an amusing one. It supposes scrutiny and independent analysis of products and drugs never occurs, and allows foil hatted conspiracy theorists to claim there are many more lurking “out there, somewhere” if only someone else can find them.

    Like

  177. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Lawrence, they cover up until caught or admit after more innocent people have died more money is made. That’s not both ways now is it.

    Dingo, I am not going to take time to provide you a list of drugs. I’m sure you can find tat yourself. There is no debate, it is fact.

    Like

  178. dingo199
    May 20, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    Well it’s taken you a little longer to give up than the rest of the antivax trolls, I’ll grant you that. Thanks for your efforts. Pity you couldn’t actually come up with a single example for us to discuss further.

    Like

  179. Lawrence
    May 20, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @peter – unsubstantiated assertions are not “facts.”

    Perhaps if you did real research rather than parrot quack websites, you’d learn something.

    Like

  180. Peter M
  181. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    Mercola is a salesman of alternative medicines. He’s just talking down the competition. In terms of corporate ethics, he’s no saint.

    Like

  182. May 20, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    @Peter – that’s like Redbull complaining about Coca-Cola….again, stop reading quack websites and do some real research for a change….

    Like

  183. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    Peter M, will you please answer the questions I asked My3sons in Comment #158?

    Also, Peter M are you employed by the Dwoskin Family Foundation or by Dr, Mercola?

    Like

  184. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    Anyone who thinks that Big Pharma is able to run all the medical journals, all the doctors, and all the medical schools behind the scenes has clearly never seen corporate bureaucracy in action.

    Like

  185. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Perhaps he is employed by either Mercola or the Dwoskin Family to push doubt about vaccines and pharmaceuticals. That way Mercola gets more money by selling his supplements, etc, and the Dwoskin folks gets more believers and even donations to them or NVIC (they are both work together).

    Like

  186. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    People, there is plenty of information (referenced) in the Mercola article to show that Big Pharma is NOT to be trusted. If you can prove that any of that information is False, please feel free to do so. Quit making excuses for and defending Big Pharma, it really is pathetic.

    Like

  187. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    Again, why should we trust Mercola? If unethical actions by “Big Pharma” mean we can disregard everything they say and do, why shouldn’t we apply the same standard to Mercola?

    Like

  188. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    Gray Falcon, why are you so extreme? What, it’s all or nothing? There isn’t a medium? You are so drama.

    Like

  189. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:13 pm

    Chris, the answer to your question is NO.

    Like

  190. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    Gray Falcon, it’s not about Mercola….that was an easy site to pull information from. Since you won’t do your own research, I am being lazy. Please there are referenes, tell what part of it is not true about any of those companies.

    Like

  191. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    Mercola hasn’t put out a drug and killed thousands knowingly. That’s the difference.

    Like

  192. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray Falcon, why are you so extreme? What, it’s all or nothing? There isn’t a medium? You are so drama.

    It’s your standard. You say we should throw out everything any mainstream medicine because of one unethical action.

    Peter M :
    Mercola hasn’t put out a drug and killed thousands knowingly. That’s the difference.

    Mercola lists Laetrile as a cancer remedy. Laeatrile contains cyanide.

    Like

  193. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    Gray is it his remedy, then approved and then killed thousands? No, he would be in jail if that happened. Nice try though.

    I neber said it was all or nothing…I take medicine. I said they are not to be trusted, so you better be cautious and you better pick and choose what you are confortable with.

    Like

  194. Peter M
    May 20, 2013 at 11:29 pm

    oh and one unethical action? That is freakin hilarious!

    Like

  195. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 11:50 pm

    Peter M, I’m amazed at your foolishly idealistic belief in corporate competence. Have you seen a boardroom in action?

    Like

  196. Gray Falcon
    May 20, 2013 at 11:54 pm

    We know that the drug companies did unethical things. That alone, however, does not prove that vaccines are dangerous. You may as well have brought up the flavor of green curry.

    It also shows that medical journals can be trusted. They were, after all, the ones who broke the story in the first place. As a rule, academics tend to value the prestige of being published over short-term profits.

    Like

  197. Chris
    May 20, 2013 at 11:55 pm

    Peter M:

    Chris, the answer to your question is NO.

    Why should we believe you? You have not present any evidence. And there are plenty of case reports on PubMed that laetrile has caused cyanide poisoning. Why would you deny poisoning by a natural product, hydrocyanide in apricot kernals?

    If you accuse of being Big Pharma shills, why shouldn’t we assume you are promoting the products of the guy whose website you post. He does have a big “buy stuff” bits on his website. So what do you do, work in communications or just the website?

    Like

  198. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 12:01 am

    Oops: hydrocyanide should be hydrogen cyanide.

    It is in the apricot pits to prevent them being eaten by critters. While the tree wants critters to eat the fruit to spread the seed (the HCN makes it bitter), it does not want the seed eaten. There are mutants of that fruit that do not have a bitter tasting seed, and were at first called “sweet apricots”, but later they were called “almonds.”

    After a while, the pits of the apricot became “bitter almond.” It is the smell that in old detective stories that indicated poison.

    So, Peter M, if you don’t work for Mercola, do you actually work for NVIC or the Dwoskin family?

    Like

  199. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 12:08 am

    Another possibility: Peter M works for “Big Pharma”. Think about it. There’s very little money to be made in preventing illness, while his knocking of “mainstream” medicine conveniently distracts the reader from the fact that the “Big Pharma” companies are the biggest manufacturers of alternative medicine.

    Like

  200. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 12:33 am

    By the way, didn’t laetrile kill Steve McQueen.

    Actually, I bet Peter M works for Mercola. Just like the woman on the listserv for my son’s disability was working for Bradstreet. She was just using it to drum up business on an email list of parents with disabled children. Obviously this is the job for Peter M and the other sock puppets.

    Like

  201. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 12:41 am

    Gray Falcon, I am blown away by your ignorance and your naiveté. I happen to work for a Fortune 200 Company and know exactly how business works.

    “It also shows that medical journals can be trusted. They were, after all, the ones who broke the story in the first place. As a rule, academics tend to value the prestige of being published over short-term profits.”

    Please tell that to all of the people who 5 years into the Vioxx scandal died.

    Like

  202. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 12:43 am

    Chris, the answer is still no.

    Like

  203. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 12:48 am

    Gray, you are one of only 13% of americans http://www.bmj.com/content/329/7460/247.1

    Like

  204. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 1:00 am

    It took five years because it takes that long to find that kind of pattern. If you don’t believe me, tell me what comes next in the following sequence. Blue.

    How can you trust that only 13% of America are confident in drug companies? After, it’s published in a medical journal, and you tell me they can’t be trusted.

    To quote an earlier commenter: The “shill” label comes from the behavior. You know, if it talks like a duck and walks like a duck….

    Like

  205. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 2:19 am

    Peter M, why should we believe you? At least the employee of Bradstreet used her real name. You are just another sock puppet. How do we know you aren’t just trying to promote Mercola’s brand?

    Like

  206. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 2:20 am

    By the way, the last time I saw her name it was a website promoting Wakefield. Yeah, I’m not buying what she is selling.

    Like

  207. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 3:02 am

    Peter M:

    I happen to work for a Fortune 200 Company and know exactly how business works.

    So you work for McDonald’s? (company #107, our income comes from #39)

    Why should we believe you?

    Like

  208. dingo199
    May 21, 2013 at 3:57 am

    Chris :Oops: hydrocyanide should be hydrogen cyanide.

    You of all people!!!!
    😉

    Like

  209. Karen
    May 21, 2013 at 10:20 am

    #194
    As one of you likes to use as a mantra, The dose is the poison. Most drugs are fatal if you take enough of them, and death caused by taking prescription drugs as directed is a major cause of death. Almonds, like apricots, have cyanide in them: originally all almonds had quite a bit of cyanide and were bitter, but Jared Diamond describes how early humans discovered a few mutated almond trees with sweeter nuts, that they propagated. Even now, however, raw almonds have a fair amount of cyanide, and it is illegal in the US to sell them without heat-treating them first. Naturopaths teach that eating a few almonds a day (or strawberries) will prevent you from getting cancer, presumably on the same grounds that laetrile from apricot pits can treat cancer. It works for me. Mercury, on the other hand, does untold damage even in extremely minute quantities, and is something you should keep from ingesting at all costs.

    Like

  210. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 10:47 am

    Karen, if you don’t know what a chemical compound is, you have no right to comment on chemistry.

    Like

  211. Karen
    May 21, 2013 at 10:52 am

    The cyanide in almonds and apricot pits does not contain free hydrogen cyanide.When it comes in contact with a cancer cell, which contains the enzyme beta-glucosidase, the Laetrile is broken down to form two molecules of glucose, one molecule of benzaldehyde and one molecule of hydrogen cyanide (HCN). Within the body, the cancer cell-and only the cancer cell-contains that enzyme. The key word here is that the HCN must be FORMED. It is not floating around freely in the Laetrile and then released. It must be manufactured. The enzyme beta glucosidase, and only that enzyme, is capable of manufacturing the HCN from Laetrile. If there are no cancer cells in the body, there is no beta-glucosidase. If there is no beta-glucosidase, no HCN will be formed from the Laetrile (1). And then the cyanide kills the cancer cells. If I had cancer, I would try it.

    Like

  212. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 11:32 am

    Karen, this article is not about Laetrile. Do not try to change the subject. And even if it was, Laetrile has never worked in actual tests with cancer patients.

    Your mention of mercury shows exactly how ignorant you really are of chemistry. Thimerosal is a mercury compound, not an element. It’s true mercury is toxic, but remember that coal smoke has mercury in it, and in great quantities. Before the Clean Air Act was enacted, it did cause major health problems, but why not autism? Shouldn’t there have been an even bigger autism epidemic during the Industrial Revolution?

    Like

  213. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Chris, my name is Peter Matus….go ahead and do your research. You are really cracking me up! How did you know that I worked at McDonalds? I love the way you all get off topic by attacking me instead of just admitting that the Pharma companies can not be trusted. It’s very easy to say…try it, “the pharma companies can not be trusted. I’d be happy to provide a google link if you don’t know how.

    Like

  214. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Gray Falcon, there was a bigger autsim epidemic then, but we just thought of them as the geeky kids or whatever, remember? Now we call them autistic.

    Like

  215. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray Falcon, there was a bigger autsim epidemic then, but we just thought of them as the geeky kids or whatever, remember? Now we call them autistic.

    You do know, of course, that you just accepted the statement “there is no autism epidemic” is true? Thank you for conceding that vaccines do not cause autism.

    Like

  216. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Gray, why do you insist on acting so childish? It doesn’t win anybody over and only makes you look foolish.

    Like

  217. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray, why do you insist on acting so childish? It doesn’t win anybody over and only makes you look foolish.

    I asked you a serious question that about information that directly falsified your claims. You gave a flippant answer. I responded by showing you the consequences of your flippancy. Now answer my question seriously: why wasn’t there an autism epidemic during the Industrial Revolution, when mercury was ubitquitous?

    Like

  218. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    Ohhhh consequences…that hurts. Gray, you are no better than anybody else. Your arrogance is extraordinary.

    Like

  219. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    There are so many factors involved in your question it would take a lot of research. Everything from exposure, to the genetics of the people at that time, and probably 1000 other factors.

    Like

  220. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    Peter, you have yet to provide any evidence that vaccines are dangerous. You made insinuations against drug companies, but that does not prove any specific medicine dangerous. Simply put, you are using the lowest methods of accusation, one specifically condemned by most courts, and that does not make you someone I will speak with

    Like

  221. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    As an equal. Sorry about that.

    Peter M :
    There are so many factors involved in your question it would take a lot of research. Everything from exposure, to the genetics of the people at that time, and probably 1000 other factors.

    Any evidence for that? And how do you know none of those factors are really responsible for autism? By the way, the Clean Air Act was amended to regulate, rather than study, air pollution in 1970. So the period I’m asking about is much closer than I previously stated.

    Like

  222. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    I am not your equal? Arrogant lately? You really are full of yourself.

    I don’t know what the factors are so how could I answer that question? As I said it would take a lot of research to find that out.

    Like

  223. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    It’s not an accusation, the pharma companies have proven they are not to be trusted. How is that an accusation? You admitted yourself they had at least one unethical action.

    Like

  224. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Peter M :
    It’s not an accusation, the pharma companies have proven they are not to be trusted. How is that an accusation? You admitted yourself they had at least one unethical action.

    And? Again, that doesn’t prove others. We need evidence for each specific allegation. Yes, we know the drug companies have done unethical things, but that in and of itself is not proof of any other wrongdoing. What’s more, you dismiss studies that have nothing to do with the drug companies based on your invective, claiming the must be tainted by the faintest of connections. That is not the action of an honest man.

    Like

  225. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    Gray…you are not being honest right now. You either trust or you don’t, there is not any inbetween. Pharma companies can not be trusted and they have proven they can not be trusted. Period.Simple. End of story.

    Like

  226. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Peter M :
    Gray…you are not being honest right now. You either trust or you don’t, there is not any inbetween. Pharma companies can not be trusted and they have proven they can not be trusted. Period.Simple. End of story.

    We told you repeated at “Big Pharma” is not our only source. We’ve shown you multiple sources with no connection to the companies. We’ve even shown you that the drug companies stand to profit more from the diseases than the vaccines. You dismissed all our evidence because you think that they must have some connection to “Big Pharma”, but you have no proof of that. If you were on trial for a horrible crime, and several eyewitnesses claimed you were elsewhere at the time of the crime, would you accept it if the judge dismissed all of their statements because they stand to benefit you?

    Like

  227. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Gray Falcon, I have not dismissed any evidence. I also said you had better pick and choose who you trust or what you are going to trust.

    I guess we can only hope that somebody is watching over Big Pharma at all times and that they are not in Big Pharma pockets eh? Hopefully the ones we trust will stay on them and get information out quickly before more people die.

    You really need to work on your analagies or stop using them.

    Like

  228. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    Peter, do not lie to me. If you did not dismiss any evidence, you would have conceded that vaccines do not cause autism.

    Like

  229. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    That’s because vaccine’s do contribute to autism and you don’t have any proof that they don’t.

    Like

  230. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    Peter M :
    That’s because vaccine’s do contribute to autism and you don’t have any proof that they don’t.

    That’s not how evidence works. You make an accusation, you provide the evidence for that specific crime. Would you prefer to have it another way?

    Like

  231. May 21, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    @Peter – what is your proof that they “do?”

    Like

  232. Gray Falcon
    May 21, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    You know, by Peter’s logic, I can “prove” he works for Big Pharma. After all, we do know that Big Pharma will do anything for a profit, and preventative medicine is not as profitable as palliative care. No sane human being would denigrate vaccination, so clearly, Peter must be making his statements because he’s profitting from them. Now he just has to prove me wrong. Not that we can trust what he says, since he works for Big Pharma.

    Like

  233. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Peter M:

    I love the way you all get off topic by attacking me instead of just admitting that the Pharma companies can not be trusted.

    Then just answer the questions I asked in comments 12, 68, 70, 118, 156 and 157. Otherwise, stop playing the pharma shill gambit.

    Like

  234. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Gray Falcon, actually I don’t need to prove anything to you and am fine with that. If you want to prove to me that they don’t, then have at it. Otherwise, I say they do.

    Like

  235. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Gray Falcon, it is your right to trust Big Pharma….have at it.

    Like

  236. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Chris, why don’t you tell me your last name first now that you know mine.

    Like

  237. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    You do not need that information in order to tell me who paid for the studies at the Royal Free Hospital by Dr. Brent Taylor after Wakefield left.

    Like

  238. Chris
    May 21, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    And I am not sure that is your real name. For all I know your real last name is Mercola, and you were hired by your uncle, Dr. Mercola, to promote his website.

    Like

  239. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    So I give you mine and you don’t give me yours? That’s how you play?

    Like

  240. May 21, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    @peter – you don’t “prove a negative” – as you first have to prove the “positive.”

    Like

  241. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Lawrence….it’s not a negative. If vaccines were tested and proven to have no relationship to vaccines and you trust them, then they should be able to provide the proof right?

    Like

  242. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    Otherwise, I know that vaccines do play their part in autism with my own experience and will go right on believing that until they prove me otherwise.

    Sounds like a fair deal to me.

    Like

  243. dingo199
    May 21, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    no posts, again!

    Like

  244. dingo199
    May 21, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    Also in 2010, BAE Systems (U.S.) settled with the Dept of Justice for $448 million, having paid $2 billion in bribes to Saudi Arabian ambassador Bandar bin Sultan in a multi-billion-dollar arms deal.

    Peter’s conclusion?
    Aircraft manufacturers are never to be trusted, and planes cannot possibly fly.rk.

    Like

  245. Peter M
    May 21, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    dingo….that wasn’t my conclusion 🙂

    Like

  246. dingo199
    May 21, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    Yes it was.

    You pointed out that some drug companies have done bad things (eg Merck/Vioxx).
    Your conclusion was that all of BigPharma “could not be trusted”, and what is more, that means you believe vaccines are unsafe and ineffective.

    If I have got you wrong, just do one of these 2 things:
    1. Say vaccines are effective, and usually safe, or
    2. Post evidence to the contrary (linkies please!).

    Should be simple.

    Like

  247. Chris
    May 22, 2013 at 2:23 am

    dingo199:

    no posts, again!

    Join the club.

    Like

  248. Peter M
    May 22, 2013 at 11:59 am

    Can’t seem to make a comment or post a link.

    Like

  249. Karen
    May 22, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Gray Falcon,
    Some autism is caused by exposure to mercury fumes: the only unvaccinated Amish boy with autism lives near a mercury-producing electrical plant. If you read chapter four in the book The Age of Autism, you would learn how England experienced a sharp and sudden rise in its rates of mental illness, some conditions entirely new, in the wake of industrial pollution in the eighteenth century. This rise was exhaustively researched in Torrey and Miller’s book The Invisible Plague – the Rise of Mental Illness from 1750 to the Present. Schizophrenia, juvenile arthritis, ADD, and genetic mutation syndromes also linked to mercury exposure, like Down and Fragile X Syndrome.

    Like

  250. Gray Falcon
    May 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    I wouldn’t be surprised that heavy pollution would cause mental illness. However, you did not address my actual question, which was about Autism, not any of those other conditions, which are not autism. Also, [citation needed] on the claim anout the Amish boy.

    Like

  251. Karen
    May 22, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    One of many studies proving dangers of mercury in thimerosal: Laurente Neurotoxic effects of thim. at vaccine doses on the encephalon and development in seven day old hamsters, An. Fac. Med. 2007 68(3) 222-237. In the mercury-exposed hamsters, clear damage of hippocampus, cerebellum, and cerebral cortex. Exposed hamsters had reduced neuron density, increased cell death, impaired myelin development, and increased inflammation. Results significant with greater than 99.99% certainty.

    Like

  252. K.
    May 22, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Toxic. Lett 2010 Oct 5, 198 (2): 182-90: on effects of ethylmercury in thimerosal:
    Differential immunotoxic effects of inorganic and organic mercury species in vitro.
    Gardner RM, Nyland JF, Silbergeld EK.
    Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Department of Environmental Health Sciences, 615 N. Wolfe St., Baltimore, MD 21205, United States. rgardner@jhsph.edu
    Abstract
    Despite the fact that humans are exposed to multiple forms of mercury (elemental, inorganic, and organic), most research on mercury toxicity has focused on methylmercury (MeHg) and on neurotoxic outcomes and mechanisms. Recent work has indicated that the immunotoxic effects of mercury compounds may be significant contributors to human disease as well as mechanistically relevant to other target organ toxicities.

    Like

  253. K.
    May 22, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    V. Virol. 2011 Apr 85 (7) 3664-76, implication being that children with stored mercury from vaccines often being unable to deal with the measles virus in vaccine:
    T cell-, interleukin-12-, and gamma interferon-driven viral clearance in measles virus-infected brain tissue.

    Like

  254. Chris
    May 22, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    K,, do you know what “in vitro” means? The studies were either in rodents, or just blood samples. The last one on actual measles, and it had nothing to do with vaccines. In fact it was study to figure out why certain viral diseases cause encephalitis. You are cherry picking and really stretching for any kind of meaningful conclusion. Plus the citations are sloppily typed, so I cannot find the first one.

    So exactly which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Do not include influenza since four out of the eight approved for children are thimerosal free. By the way “half” is not the same as “most.”

    What is ironic, and hilarious, is all the hand wringing you do with the almost non-existent presence of thimerosal, and yet think it is okay dokay for people to eat cyanide:
    PMID: 23158573
    PMID: 21856998
    PMID: 20845029
    PMID: 20560788
    PMID: 20196932

    Like

  255. May 23, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    Peter M :
    That’s because vaccine’s do contribute to autism and you don’t have any proof that they don’t.

    I have a secret Moon Base where I have personally stockpiled $45 Trillion of gold bullion. I also have the cure for diabetes locked up in a red Tupperware container in my basement, but I refuse to release it until the Cubs win the World Series.

    You don’t have any proof that my claims aren’t true, and thus they must be facts. Prove me wrong.

    Like

  256. dingo199
    May 23, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    Your moon base is not secret Costner, – I saw it in 1968 when I flew over the moon accompanied by 6 pink butterflies and a rainbow unicorn. And since you can’t prove I didn’t, it must be true too.

    Like

  257. Sam
    May 23, 2013 at 8:20 pm

    Costner – you have no credibility, and prove it here with your whacked out post. You slander people without any evidence, and are not to be trusted.

    Like

  258. novalox
    May 23, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @sam

    [citation needed] or we can assume that you have no credibility and are just a troll.

    Like

  259. dingo199
    May 24, 2013 at 4:01 am

    Sam :Costner – you have no credibility, and prove it here with your whacked out post. You slander people without any evidence, and are not to be trusted.

    Sam (or whichever troll sockie you really are), the posts by Costner point out a simple fact – that you cannot claim proof through the vehicle of of the negative fallacy, namely that you cannot claim X is true simply because someone cannot provide proof that X is false.
    This is self-evident, or should be, and to comment pointing it out, as Costner has done, is hardly a demonstration of a lack of crdibility. Indeed, it is you and your antivaccine troll sockpuppet buddies (assuming there is more than one of you) who show a lack of understanding and credibility.

    Like

  260. May 24, 2013 at 10:35 am

    Sam :
    Costner – you have no credibility, and prove it here with your whacked out post. You slander people without any evidence, and are not to be trusted.

    Well for starters I haven’t slandered anyone, and if you are going to claim I have then I politely request for you to provide me a citation proving so.

    Number two, you essentially responded to my first two posts on this site with the same ‘lack of credibility’ comment, so I can only assume you are either confusing me with someone else, or perhaps you aren’t a fan of my blog. If the former, I’ll accept your apology. If the latter, then there isn’t much I can do other than to ask you to attempt to remain civil as my comments here have nothing to do with anything other than this specific discussion.

    Finally, I would hope you understand my comment was sarcasm meant to make a point. Although for all you know I really do have a secret moon base – and aside from Dingo flying over in the late 60s and a few random visits by Russian “weather satellites”, nobody has the ability of proving that I don’t.

    Enjoy your day!

    Like

  1. August 14, 2013 at 1:57 am

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