Home > Get Involved, Policy, Preventable Diseases > Oregon’s 2013 School Vaccine Exemption Rates Climb from 2012

Oregon’s 2013 School Vaccine Exemption Rates Climb from 2012

Last week, in a blog focused on rising school vaccination exemptions, I explained legislation (Senate Bill 132) which has recently been proposed in the state of Oregon – a state with the highest rate of non-medical exemptions for kindergarteners in the country.   Then yesterday, The Oregon Immunization Program released the 2013 rates of Oregon kindergarteners who have cited nonmedical (religious) exemption from one or more required vaccines, and unfortunately the data shows that the exemption rates have continued to rise over 2012, reaching an all-time high of 6.4%.

Sadly, exemption increases were noted in 26 counties, with 17 of those counties now surpassing the 6% rate which is commonly referred to as the threshold after which community immunity may be compromised for some vaccine preventable diseases such as measles and pertussis.  Comparatively, the 2012 data noted 13 counties with rates above 6% last year.  And according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 2012 also saw the highest rates for pertussis (whooping cough) in the past 50 years, with Oregon being one of the worst impacted with more than 800 cases of pertussis last year alone.

Pediatrician Jay Rosenbloom, M.D., who leads the Oregonians for Healthy Children’s efforts to create new policy in Oregon under Senate Bill 132, admits that these statistics are troubling.  This is why he supports Senate Bill 132, which seeks to curtail non-medical vaccine exemptions in Oregon’s schools and daycares by requiring parents who request a non-medical exemption to either complete an online educational video, or obtain a signed form from their health care provider.

The goal is to educate parents about the risk of opting out of immunizations, as well as inform them about vaccine preventable diseases and community immunity.  Often parents seek information online about vaccines; information that is often inaccurate and incomplete. The hope is that this legislation will ensure parents receive credible, medically based information about immunizations and vaccine-preventable diseases.  While the bill will still allow parents to claim exemptions for any reason, the hope is that the education required will reduce the number of parents who choose to file exemptions, as was seen when Washington state’s exemption rates decreased by 25% following similar legislation  passed there in 2011. 

Dr. Rosenbloom explains,

“Our work to help parents become better informed, which is a provision in Senate Bill 132, is needed now more than ever.”

With Oregon’s rates surpassing the 6% benchmark, he goes on to say,

“This means we will not have the ‘community immunity’ protection that we need to protect our youngest and most vulnerable individuals against some diseases.”

As a result of the state and local outreach that Dr. Rosenbloom and other advocates have been a part of over the past several years, he believes,

“It will be helpful for parents to have ongoing, reliable, accurate access to medically based information about immunizations and vaccine-preventable diseases.”

Anne Stone of the Oregon Pediatric Society agrees and notes that the “increasing non-medical exemption rate has nearly tripled in Oregon in the past twelve years,” which has prompted many individuals and organizations to take note, join together and support parental education around current exemption policies.  Already, more than 90 individuals and medical professionals around Oregon have signed on in support of SB132 with the hope that by educating parents we can help keep our children, families and communities protected.  Although this legislation is specific to Oregon, it’s important to note that these policies impact us all.

If you would like to find out how you can support the Oregonians for Healthy Children’s Immunization Education Campaign, visit their website here and sign on in support of SB132.

  1. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 9:09 am

    Every one of these 6.4% of parents claiming an exemption to the vaccine suggestion is aware that vaccines can sometimes prevent communicable diseases, but can also cause very serious and permanent side effects. It is their (our) right to decide that, in their (our)opinion, the diseases are less dangerous for most than the vaccines. You can express your opinion, but should not even want to force people to risk hurting their child. Why do you? Forcing parents to vaccinate like it or not would also impact us all, forcing families to cope with the agony of a vaccine-damaged child, an agony that was preventable, and society to fork out a lot of money to care for the vaccine-damaged.

    Like

  2. Lawrence
    May 8, 2013 at 11:24 am

    @Tamar – there is no legitimate evidence that vaccines cause the things you accuse them of causing.

    Unfortunately, the very real diseases these vaccines prevent do actually cause debilitating, life long side-effects, like blindness, deafness, sterility, congenital birth defects, etc.

    You’ve gotten lazy & don’t realize the real world harm that these diseases cause. I recommend traveling to an area of the world where these diseases are endemic & see the real harm caused.

    Stop believing the fiction of “mass vaccine injuries” because the numbers you claim don’t exist. Read the facts.

    If you don’t like it – don’t send your kids to public schools. That is your choice.

    Like

  3. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 11:40 am

    Or, those whose childen have received the vaccines, if they are afraid that the vaccines don’t work as well as they are advertised to, could keep their children at home and homeschool them, an option available in all fifty states. After all, there are a lot of unvaccine preventable diseases at school that they might catch there. If the vaccines don’t work very well, then why try to force anyone to give them to their child and risk the damage often caused? You think damage is only in one in a million. But do you have the right to hold down that particular child and force him against his and his parents’ will to receive the vaccine that will injure him for life, or kill him, in order to possibly prevent him from getting a usually mild disease like pertussis or measles, and possibly prevent him from giving it to an appropriately-vaccinated child who would be the one in a million who turned out to be vaxed, get the disease anyway, and also have the misfortune to be permanently damaged or killed by it? And what if, as many of us believe, you are mistaken about the rarity of vaccine reaction, as millions of people are convinced that you are? Do you have the right to insist on their children being damaged by vaccines?

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  4. May 8, 2013 at 11:50 am

    @Tamar – except that the evidence doesn’t exist to support you conclusions.

    Vaccines work exceedingly well (too well, in fact – since people have forgotten just how damaging these childhood diseases can be). And, there are a number of children who, for valid medical reasons (like a compromised immune system – like Cancer, for example) who cannot be vaccinated. It behooves the rest of us to be vaccinated to help protect those that cannot be protected otherwise.

    Again, you have no evidence to support your beliefs and you are, in fact, lying when you make the claims that you make.

    I would start with Todd’s excellent site:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Which refutes and rebuts the typical anti-vaccine claims. Get some real evidence and real facts….which you don’t currently have.

    Like

  5. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Tamar:

    But do you have the right to hold down that particular child and force him against his and his parents’ will to receive the vaccine that will injure him for life, or kill him, in order to possibly prevent him from getting a usually mild disease like pertussis or measles,

    You have made a few claims in that diatribe. Now come up with the PubMed indexed studies that show the DTaP causes more harm than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis, plus the MMR causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella. Make sure the authors are qualified researchers who have not had their medical qualifications legally removed, or have inappropriate educations like law, business, computer science, geology, etc.

    Prove to us that there is no reason to call pertussis the “hundred day cough” that kills infants, or that measles does not cause encephalitis in one out of a thousand cases, along with pneumonia much more often than that. Come one, do it.

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  6. May 8, 2013 at 11:57 am

    @Tamar – if what you claim was real, there would good, valid evidence available to back it up. In fact, during the past decade, dozens, if not hundreds of studies have been done, not just here, but around the world that show that neurological outcomes (like autism) in children are not affected by vaccine status….

    i.e. diagnoses of autism weren’t any different between vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated individuals.

    Back to vaccine effectiveness, besides vaccines, try to explain the 95 – 99.9% decrease in the incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases since the beginning of the vaccination program…..again, get some facts, before spouting off the typical anti-vaccine lies.

    Like

  7. May 8, 2013 at 11:59 am

    @Tamar – as a matter of public health, schools make policies necessary to protect students, staff, and faculty from disease outbreaks….again, if you don’t like public policy, you can always try the Waldolf Schools – they have an extremely lax vaccination policy, though they seem to also have to shut down for weeks at a time due to outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases……

    Like

  8. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    People who sincerely believe something cannot be said to be lying. At most, you might only legitimately say that you believe they are mistaken. Are you projecting? Do you think the Founding Fathers believed that every religion was correct in its professed beliefs? No one does, as many of the beliefs in aggregate held by all religions are contradictory. And yet, despite this, they thought the point was important enough to include freedom of religion in the Bill of Rights.

    Like

  9. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Tamar, you used some very emotive language like “hold down that particular child and force him against his and his parents’ will to receive the vaccine.”

    How does that equal the actual language in the proposed bill that says (quoting above): “requiring parents who request a non-medical exemption to either complete an online educational video, or obtain a signed form from their health care provider.”? They can still get the exemption, but they need to go one little extra step.

    What do you have against educating parents with real information? And if you think that information is false, then you had better come up with some actual factual verifiable scientific evidence to back up your claims.

    Like

  10. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Tamar:

    People who sincerely believe something cannot be said to be lying. At most, you might only legitimately say that you believe they are mistaken.

    There is a difference between beliefs and facts. While you are welcome to your own opinions, you may not have your own facts. If the parents are mistaken, then they will get the educational materials to correct their misconceptions. Why do you object to education?

    Again, if you have some facts that show that the vaccines are more harmful than the diseases then please present them. They need to be PubMed indexed studies from qualified researchers.

    Like

  11. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    In many outbreaks of pertussis or measles in recent decades, 100% of the school populations involved had been appropriately vaccinated, but got the diseases anyway. But at least the parents involved had paid more than lip service to the doctrine.

    You pick the sources you believe are telling the truth about vaccine safety and efficacy, but must allow others to pick sources that they find believable. Do you have figures on the numbers of children who died of a VPD despite having been vaccinated for it themselves? (In this instance, I’m not asking for the number who died from the vaccine itself, nor the number who got the disease from the vaccine itself, only the number who caught it from a deliberately unvaccinated child.)

    Chris, does Lawrence agree with you on this point? You would evidently be happy to grant the exemption if parents listened to the doctor lecture them for ten minutes, but continued to demand the exemption to the vaccine suggestion?

    Like

  12. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Since the new filter doesn’t permit the inclusion of citations, it doesn’t seem fair to demand them.

    Like

  13. Lawrence
    May 8, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    @tamar – where are your citations to prove what you say?

    Like

  14. Lawrence
    May 8, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    @tamar – people have been able to post evidence…only you have not.

    Like

  15. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Tamar, the filter does allow you to post citations. Just post the PMID, PubMed Identification Numbers.

    Tamar:

    In many outbreaks of pertussis or measles in recent decades, 100% of the school populations involved had been appropriately vaccinated, but got the diseases anyway

    Really? From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6115a1.htm?s_cid=mm6115a1_w : “Of the 222, a total of 196 were U.S. residents. Of those U.S. residents who had measles, 166 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status,”

    How is that a 100% vaccinated?

    … and http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6034a5.htm … ” Of the 14 patients, 13 were unvaccinated persons in the same extended family.” Followed by: “The index patient was an unvaccinated U.S. resident aged 24 years who noted a rash on June 3 during a return flight from Indonesia,..”

    Like

  16. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Chris,
    Again, you are saying that if a vaccine might be less dangerous than the disease for it, then parents have to get it. Or are you saying that you think everyone should act or be forced to act on what you think is the preponderance of the evidence? What if a woman had a baby who died reacting to the DTaP, he was the one in a million, and just didn’t want to vaccinate her next baby? Maybe just for DTaP, maybe for all of them. What if her neighbor had witnessed the death of the baby, and just didn’t want to take the risk and vaccinate her own children? Do they not have that right? Can you absolutely guarantee that lightning won’t strike twice (or forty times) in the same block? I think you’d get further just politely stating your opinion, you’ve probably seen that your current strategy is losing you adherents, and let others gather information and act on it as they (we) see fit.

    Like

  17. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    Some PMID numbers for you to ponder, Tamar:

    15106083
    22521285
    22080172
    20643726
    20498176

    Now where are the studies that show those are wrong?

    Like

  18. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    So at least 30 and maybe many more of the 196 who got measles and had been vaccinated for it got the vaccine in vain, while running the high risk of reaction to the MMR. How many died or were permanently damaged by measles in the outbreak you mention? Those who got measles in that or any outbreak now have permanent immunity to it, and have started the only reliable herd on which to found herd immunity.

    Like

  19. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    Tamar:

    Or are you saying that you think everyone should act or be forced to act on what you think is the preponderance of the evidence?

    No. I am saying that they should get the proper education and make their decision from that. The bill is only requiring that they go through either an online educational video class, or have the exemption signed by health care provider. What part of that do you not understand.

    Now, again, please post the PubMed citations to support your claims.

    Like

  20. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    Did the 24-year old who contracted measles die of it? As an adult, he was at higher risk of complications from measles, but even the vast majority of adults who get it make a complete recovery.

    Like

  21. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Tamar: “So at least 30 and maybe many more of the 196 who got measles and had been vaccinated for it got the vaccine in vain,”

    So? Sometimes it does not work. That is why we need community immunity because there are people with issues in their immune systems who need protection. Do not fall for the Nirvana Fallacy.

    Now, again, where are those citations showing the MMR is worse than measles? You keep making claims, but fail to support them.

    Like

  22. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Tamar, stop being silly. Death is not the only problem with getting measles. There is also pneumonia, possible blindness, deafness, etc. It is evil to not prevent a disease that has a risk of high fever and a one out of 40 chance of febrile seizure. Really, go read the citation in the first PMID I listed.

    You are claiming the MMR causes death, so tell us how that happens more often than in measles.

    Like

  23. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    I understand, I asked if Lawrence agreed with you, as he seems to take a more draconian stance on this issue. I think it’s condescending to make people go listen to a doctor’s lecture before “permitting” them to decline the shots, but most people care enough about their children to be willing to undergo the insults of medical professionals to get the exemption. Personally, I would find it fun to educate medical professionals on the topic. I wouldn’t support the bill, but there are worse insults one has to endure in life. As long as the medical professional were legally obligated to sign the form after reading his Merck brochure to the parents.

    Like

  24. Tamar
    May 8, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Chris,
    Again, it’s condescending to say that parents, if they knew that measles invariably causes high fever, rash, bad cough and conjunctivitis, fairly often causes diarrhea, ear infections, not infrequently bacterial pneumonia, and extremely infrequently encephalitis, would all flock to get the vaccine to prevent it. Of course parents know that measles is unpleasant, but many of us are still unafraid of it. Dr. Halvorsen said that parents in the UK in the ’80s didn’t want the measles vaccine or the MMR because all of them had had measles as children and were unafraid of it. Fever is good for the maturation of the immune system, and parents who are terrified of it are misinformed. You say parents who are not deathly afraid of fever are evil, while I say they are wise. Do you want citations on the value of fever? Febrile seizures are harmless in the vast majority of cases. What you’re saying is that it is worth risking vaccine damage, even if it’s as infrequent as you say you believe it is, to prevent a formerly universal childhood illness, which is very rarely serious or life-threatening, and, in fact, permits the child to make greater developmental strides. And of course you have a right to that opinion. But I do not agree with you, nor do I have to.

    Like

  25. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Tamar:

    Personally, I would find it fun to educate medical professionals on the topic.

    With what? Provide the PubMed Identification Numbers of the citations that support your claims.

    If you think it is condescending to make a person listen to a lecture, then why would you have fun making them listen to you? Do you object to all forms of education? Do you also dislike those who want to drive a car on public streets not learning the rules of the road and passing a written and driving exam? Do you object to food service employees learning about safe food handing rules (by the way, one of my children did have to have a food handler’s certificate showing he passed the test)? Or do you object to those who teach in a school having to listen to lectures before getting a college degree and further teaching certificates?

    What do you really have against education? That it goes challenges you to defend your claims with actual evidence?

    Like

  26. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Tamar:

    Dr. Halvorsen said that parents in the UK in the ’80s didn’t want the measles vaccine or the MMR because all of them had had measles as children and were unafraid of it.

    Did he talk the Roald Dahl’s surviving children? Including Orphelia who has help provide medical care in Haiti? (See Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder)

    Why do you think a fever over 104 is good? Provide citations.

    Like

  27. Tammy
    May 8, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Good example. One of Roald Dahl’s daughters died of measles encephalitis fifty years ago, so he and his family would understandably be more afraid of measles than the measles vaccine. Parents whose child had a bad reaction to the shot would usually be more afraid of the shot than the disease. Do you want citations of some of them?

    Education is great, but most people now realize that there are definitely two sides to this issue, and must educate themselves on both.

    Test: interferon is produced by the body to kill bacteria and viruses, and is three times more effective at 40 degrees Celsius than at 39 degrees. Heron I. The actions of interferon are potentiated at elevated temperature. Nature 1978: 274: 508-510.

    Like

  28. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Wouldn’t it be better to not have to provide interferon?

    Just provide the PubMed citations showing that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis, and that the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. I have provided you several citations in comment #17, it is now your turn.

    Like

  29. Lara Lohne
    May 8, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    All I can say right now is, HOLY smack! Since my post wouldn’t post… I’ve sent it to Christine, but many times she’s unable to get to it so… We shall see.

    Like

  30. Tam
    May 8, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    And again, parents do not have to get the MMR regardless of whether the shot or the vaccine causes more disability or death, even if you proved the disease caused more longterm damage or death (which it doesn’t). Patents whose neighbor’s son lost all his acquired skills three days after the MMR are naturally going to be wary of getting it for their child, even if you think the loss was coincidental and would have happened anyway (!!!)

    Like

  31. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Tammy, where are those citations?

    Like

  32. novalox
    May 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    @tam

    [citation needed] within 3 of your posts, are we can assume that you are lying.

    Like

  33. May 8, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Tam & sock-puppets – you do know that there used to be multiple state institutions dedicated to all of the blind & deaf children who were the victims of vaccine-preventable diseases, don’t you?

    Why don’t we have them anymore? Oh yeah, because kids aren’t catching those diseases anymore…….get some facts, because you have none.

    So please, stop lying.

    Like

  34. Frank
    May 8, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Great, replaced by institutions for the severely autistic.

    Like

  35. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    Frank, citation needed.

    Like

  36. Bobcat98
    May 8, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    Chris, citation needed.

    Like

  37. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    See comment #17.

    Like

  38. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    Or do you want these PubMed Identification Numbers:

    19482753
    18922998
    11135778

    Like

  39. May 8, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    @Frank (and sock-puppets) – never occurred to you folks that more and more children are being mainstreamed that otherwise would have been in institutions in decades past, hence the increased visibility of “autism?”

    Knowing several BT’s that deal with autistic children, they do so a wide range & find that the vast majority of their charges improve significantly over time (to the point where some lose their diagnosis completely).

    Remember, autism isn’t developmental stasis, it is developmental delay.

    Like

  40. John Vandenburghe
    May 8, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    Think I’ll be moving to Oregon to join the 6.4%.

    Like

  41. May 8, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    @John – great, create nice little pockets of disease that will allow these diseases to regain a foothold here in the States….good work.

    Like

  42. John Vandenburghe
    May 8, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Thank you Mr. Lawrence!

    Like

  43. John Vandenburghe
    May 8, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    I am sorry Mr. Lawrrence, I didn’t stop to think you may be living in Oregon and may not want a disease pocket near you. I will rethink my move.

    Like

  44. Val
    May 8, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    Community immunity may be compromised for pertussis if 6% aren’t vaccinated? Last year there were 32,000 diagnosed cases of pertussis in the US, many more undiagnosed, and the vast majority of them had been appropriately vaccinated and got pertussis anyway. Good thing pertussis isn’t dangerous in those over three or four months old, or we might have a problem on our hands with an ineffective, dangerous vaccine and growing numbers unwilling to take it.

    With one in 25 US children getting autism now, I doubt that having to watch an online video about how great vaccines are is going to curtail the masses pouring in to fill out exemption forms. Or having to listen to a lecture from a doctor. Though I guess if doctors charge as much for the lecture visit as for the shot visit, they’ll make their peace with it.

    Like

  45. Chris
    May 8, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    Val, see the last three citations I posted in Comment #38. And, unfortunately pertussis is dangerous to any child under a year old.

    Also, please provide your PubMed citation showing the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, and how it causes autism in one out of 25 children.

    Like

  46. Christine Vara
    May 9, 2013 at 8:13 am

    Our apologies to those who are still having difficulties (or inconsistencies) with posting comments here. We received this comment from Lara Lohne yesterday (5/8/13) at 1:00pm:

    Lara Lohne’s comment reads:

    “Tamar, as a resident of the state of Oregon, I can attest to the fact that your assumption that 6.4% of parents with a vaccine exemption for them children in school is not because they ‘know’ anything such as what you claim. There may be as many as half that ‘believe’ vaccines are dangerous, but I believe that also is an overestimate of the numbers, as it really isn’t that many who are anti-vaccine. Most parents of school age children in Oregon are uneducated (yes, you read that right) on the importance of vaccination and how dangerous diseases can be and only get the vaccine exemption out of either laziness, or financial issues not allowing them to have their children vaccinated on schedule (as many are also uneducated as to the county health services immunization programs, as I was not, that can help to keep their children’s vaccinations current.) A large percentage of the population in Oregon is non-English speaking and that also presents a certain type of barrier.

    I know in my sister’s case, when her son came time to go to school, she decided she was going to home school him so she didn’t have to take him to the doctor’s and have his immunizations brought current, but didn’t want to be bothered with the exemption either. After two years and her son not learning anything, she took him to the pediatrician, got his immunizations current and got him enrolled in school. My sister learned there is more to educating a child then having them watch TV all day.

    My point here is, most of those with current exemptions are not claiming an exemption because they have any type of philosophical belief about vaccines one way or the other, but there is some other barrier, typically it is due to lack of education and knowledge about available services to aid with vaccinating their children. By providing the necessity for these parents to speak to a professional regarding vaccines, we will see the exemption rates drop in Oregon too, because with proper education, people are then empowered to do what they know is right anyway, but lack the knowledge about to do now.

    I am curious, what part of this particular legislature are you seeing anything relating to forcible vaccination? Based on what I’ve read, it merely requires parents of children of school age seeking a vaccine exemption for enrollment, speak to a qualified medical professional about vaccines and the diseases they can prevent. How is that in any way forcing vaccination?”

    Like

  47. Kent
    May 9, 2013 at 9:27 am

    And, as I said, I guess I could live with parents being required to watch on online video or even go to get a shot lecture by a doctor, if they can afford it. I had to read material and take an online test on sexual harassment before I could return to teaching at the university several years ago. Just a silly requirement, more red tape. Look at Lawrence’s comments in #7 and on the last post about requiring shots for school, and his comments there, for what I fear the current proposed legislation would lead to.

    Like

  48. May 9, 2013 at 10:00 am

    @Kent – perhaps you were reading a different post. Again, if parent’s don’t like Public Health Policy guidelines for Public Schools, then they have the option to send their kids to private institutions with less stringent policies (with the repercussions of those policies).

    Like

  49. Ann
    May 9, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/15/us-networks-vaccine-idUSBRE93E05F20130415
    Article about its being well-educated parents in Wash state refusing vaxes.

    Like

  50. May 9, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    @Ann – I wouldn’t call them “well-educated” if they believed the anti-vaccine lies….

    Like

  51. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Lawrence, the article illustrates that those who refuse vaccines were getting their information from their friends. This is why laws that require an exemption be signed by a health care provider are important. And Washington does have that type of law.

    Like

  52. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Woot! After three attempts with various wordings I finally got that comment posted. Ms. Vara, you can ignore my email. Thanks.

    Like

  53. May 9, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    @Chris – it is like playing “whack-a-mole” to figure out what will and won’t go through the filter.

    Scary to think that “well-educated” people would have such a hard time doing basic research.

    Like

  54. May 9, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Someone asked for citations on vaccine risks specifically DTaP.

    Well, you need only look the labeling of the product you folks are peddling to find out about possible vaccine side effects right there in black and white.

    For example, the DTaP package insert: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm101580.pdf

    Page 11: “Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.”

    Like

  55. Cara
    May 9, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Thank you, Guillane,
    Well-educated parents read package inserts and act accordingly. The somnolence and convulsions are symptoms of encephalitis which can cause encephalopthy, brain damage, and autism. Well-educated parents read articles like the one cited in #49, and decide for themselves whether, on this issue, it would be wiser to believe the doctor or the parents of the vaccine-damaged children.

    Like

  56. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    @cara. guillane

    You do know that all of those conditions are a lot more common with the disease than the vaccine.

    Also, [citation needed] for evidence of vaccine-damaged children.

    Like

  57. Cara
    May 9, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    Scary that uneducated people don’t understand the stakes of every kind that are involved here for everyone, and that trust and compliance aren’t always the best guides for action even when it’s medical authorities who are giving them the party line.

    Like

  58. Cara
    May 9, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    Novalox/Venna/Lara

    I don’t know that because it’s not true.

    Like

  59. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    @cara

    So, [citation needed] for your assertion.

    Also, random insults thrown at posters here isn’t going to make your point any truer.

    Like

  60. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    @cara

    Also, I still think you and your sockies still consider me a sock of Lara, when you are clearly wrong.

    Please try again.

    Like

  61. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Guillane, that is not a PubMed indexed study showing the relative risks between the DTaP and diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. It is a lawyer written COA pamphlet.

    Also there are two other DTaP vaccines, what about those?

    Like

  62. Carissa
    May 9, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Other brands of the DTaP include on the package insert as side effects high or persistent screaming which means encephalitis, physical or learning disabilities, asthma, allergies,, and SIDS.

    Like

  63. Carissa
    May 9, 2013 at 3:36 pm

    These additions from Daptacel ’08, Infanrix ’09, Pentacel ’08, Pediarix ’08, ActHIB ’05, and Kinrix ’09.

    Like

  64. Carissa
    May 9, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    Thank heavens for lawyers whose heads are not on the pharma chopping block.

    Like

  65. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    @carissa

    Still sockpuppeting?

    Also, [citation needed].

    Like

  66. Narad
    May 9, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Do you think the Founding Fathers believed that every religion was correct in its professed beliefs?

    This is not only irrelevant to Oregon, but irrelevant to states that only have religious exemptions. The question isn’t about the content of purportedly religious beliefs, it is whether they are religious in nature and also sincerely held. It is the first prong that tends to trip up those who frivolously make such assertions when they’re examined, as in New York State.

    Like

  67. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    Carissa, provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified researcher that shows any DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. And by qualified I mean that their medical licenses have not been legally revoked, or who have an inappropriate education like law, journalism, business, geology, computer science, etc.

    Also, Carrissa/Cara/Ann, try to read that Reuters article with comprehension. It does not say what you claim it says.

    Like

  68. May 9, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    @Chris – this is the problem with uneducated individuals – they believe whatever they read, without doing any follow-up or understanding what they are reading in context.

    Like

  69. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    Perhaps that is why they don’t understand why the sock puppets are not working. And are just pathetic.

    Like

  70. dingo199
    May 9, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    Guillane :
    Someone asked for citations on vaccine risks specifically DTaP.
    Well, you need only look the labeling of the product you folks are peddling to find out about possible vaccine side effects right there in black and white.
    For example, the DTaP package insert: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm101580.pdf
    Page 11: “Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.”

    Guillane-sockie,
    You do realise that vaccine manufacturers have a legal obligation to report as “events” every incident that happens during a research study into vaccines and during postmarketing followup?

    So, if the person vaccinated is bitten by a dog, or has a car crash, this is reported as an “adverse event”?

    There is not automatic implication that the listed incidents are causally related to the vaccine. If you wish to see the true rate of side effects caused by vaccines then there are much better ways to do it.

    Like

  71. dingo199
    May 9, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    And you left off the last sentence in the paragraph:
    . Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.2

    Now, I wonder why you did that?
    (Don’t answer, we all know; you were being deliberately misleading. How “honest” of you. I guess we will have to view all your posts with this in mind.

    Like

  72. May 9, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    Mandatory reporting of results, now that’s funny. You mean for that small number of trials that have at least one US site and are of phase II or later? You do know that results do not get published for the many studies which are “terminated”, right? http://www.clinicaltrials.gov is a good place to visit.

    The BMJ reported on the dismal 22% compliance rate by those running trials to get their drug or jab to market. Their Conclusion: “Most trials subject to mandatory reporting did not report results within a year of completion.” See- http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.d7373

    Like

  73. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    Guillane, where is that PubMed indexed study from a qualified researcher on the relative risk between DTaP and diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis?

    Like

  74. Toby
    May 9, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    Thanks again, Guillane, what an insightful post, just the sort of gold standard scientific validation or lack thereof they’re always demanding!

    Chris, I posted yesterday (if it’s been left up), that there are so many variables involved, that no one can assess the relative risk, in this case between DTaP and the diseases. Pertussis is the only one that’s common: now, are you saying that it’s better to get asthma, seizure disorders, autism, or thrombocytopenia than to get pertussis? Personally, I would say no, it’s much better to get pertussis than any of those conditions. In Mexico they say about the bus line Flecha Roja that their motto is Mejor muertos que tarde (Better dead than late). You would doubtless agree that it’s better to die or be permanently disabled than to catch pertussis, as more than 32,000 Americans did last year. There were, tragically, eighteen deaths of newborns from pertussis. However, since the vast majority of those who caught pertussis had been recently vaccinated, but the vaccine is not very effective, most of these infants were infected by vaccinated people. Yes, if you don’t get vaxed, you may be at greater risk of catching pertussis. My vaccinated son caught it and gave it to me. Unpleasant, long-lasting, but we survived and now have probably permanent immunity. You need to ask questions more subtle than relative risk betweeen the vax and the diseases, as yours do not include the most important considerations.

    Like

  75. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Toby, what sock puppet name were you using yesterday?

    But today you say: “Pertussis is the only one that’s common: now, are you saying that it’s better to get asthma, seizure disorders, autism, or thrombocytopenia than to get pertussis? ”

    Provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified researcher that those are caused by the DTaP.

    Like

  76. Karly
    May 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    Narad,
    Were you the Grand Inquisitor in your last life? You’re saying that even parents who fear autism and seizure disorders more than they fear pertussis must be hung by their fingernails and made to confess that it’s their love for their children more than an abstract religious tenet that impels them to protect their children from vaccination? And that, once they have confessed, the children will be torn from their arms, chained to a table, and stuck with needles bearing toxic nostrums into their quivering bodies? And then, when they start seizing or spinning, the Inquisitorial Board will intone gravely, Tough luck, we got ours!

    Like

  77. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    @karly

    [citation needed]

    And please, stop spreading obvious lies.

    Like

  78. Karly
    May 9, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Chris,
    Why don’t you post links to the package inserts of the vaccines including the pertussis vaccine listed in an earlier post on this thread? All of the adverse events I mentioned have been caused by the DTaP vaccine. I understand that you’re going to say that those side effects are very very rare, and it was ony fear of lawsuit that forced the vaccine companies to admit that they sometimes do occur. Since doctors are trained to deny that vaccines ever cause harm, even when they see the harm soon after vaccination, they only have to drone, It wasn’t the vax, it wasn’t the vax. Growing numbers of parents, as seen in the article at the top, do not believe you or them, and we’re just not going to give our children the vaxes. Did you read Guillane’s excellent post about the crummy, unprofessional vaccine trials?

    Like

  79. novalox
    May 9, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    @karly

    You do know the saying “the dose is the poison”, right?

    Also, [citation needed] for your assertions within 3 posts, or we can all assume that you are lying.

    Like

  80. Lara Lohne
    May 9, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    @Toby, I had pertussis. No, it didn’t kill me, but it did leave my lungs permanently damaged with asthma like symptoms but untreatable with asthma medications. I also know that since pertussis is a bacterial infection there is no such thing as permanent immunity to it, just as there is no such thing as permanent immunity if you get a bacterial urinary tract infection. Immunity to pertussis, with or without vaccine can wane in as few as 4 years, which is why boosters are required. How do you boost yourself when your immunity to pertussis wanes? You have to go through the disease all over again. Sure, the attenuated pertussis in the DTaP vaccine is not as effective as the unattenuated was, but it was changed to reduce the sides affects that were much more common with DPT. A good example of vaccine manufactures putting the risk of side affects first, even though it does mean a less effective vaccine. With proper vaccination and boosters in the population though, it should significantly limit the chance of exposure and chance to spread it to others when infected. It is lack of vaccination that causes the infection to take hold in the population, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. And you bet your sweet bippy I’ll keep my TDaP booster updated because if I was ever infected again, I would not be able to survive, because of the damage the previous bout left me with.

    Like

  81. Chris
    May 9, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Karly:

    Why don’t you post links to the package inserts of the vaccines including the pertussis vaccine listed in an earlier post on this thread?

    Why should I? Those are lawyer written screeds that do not show relative risks. I have posted the PubMed Identification Numbers of at least eight studies (comments 17 and 38). Go read them.

    Like

  82. May 9, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    @Chris & Lara – it still amazes me that these anti-vax individuals can keep repeating the same lies, over and over again, despite being refuted at every turn…..perhaps that is the very definition of insanity.

    Like

  83. Narad
    May 9, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    Narad,
    Were you the Grand Inquisitor in your last life?

    No. Were you Emanuel Swedenborg in your “last life”?

    You’re saying that even parents who fear autism and seizure disorders more than they fear pertussis must be hung by their fingernails and made to confess that it’s their love for their children more than an abstract religious tenet that impels them to protect their children from vaccination?

    No, I’m stating the plain fact that “fear [of] autism and seizure disorders” is plainly not religious in nature for the purposes of the Seeger test. Now, if you would like to argue that antivaccinationism is in fact a religion, I’m all ears.

    Like

  84. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 12:47 am

    PMID 15889991

    Like

  85. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 12:48 am

    The above PubMed paper shows what happens when pertussis vaccines are removed through “belief” without evidence.

    Like

  86. Serina
    May 10, 2013 at 2:35 am

    For anyone that thinks that vaccines carry no risk, please refer to the VEARs website http://vaers.hhs.gov/index
    and this article straight from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
    The folks at the CDC try to downplay what they consider the severe risks by saying they are very rare, but that it does happen. Straight from govmnt agencies mouths, and there are an abundance of court rulings in favor of vaccine damaged children, whenever you let the state vaccinate your child, you are risking severe damage up to and including death.

    No thank you. I am college educated and have done enough research into the pros and cons of vaccines that I deserve college credit for it, lol. What spurred my research? Not Jenny Mcarthy. My intuition screaming at me that I should not let anyone near my children with ‘vaccines’ spurred me into hours, days, weeks, months, now we are into years, of research.
    I will take my chances with mother natures natural childhood illnesses any day over a man made chemical concoction shot directly into my child’s bloodstream. Despite the propaganda based on non-scientifically investigated theories regarding herd immunity, me not inoculating my children will not put your inoculated children at risk. #1 Everyone is a potential carrier for disease, even someone with immunity against a particular pathogen still regularly goes through a process of exposure to disease causing pathogens, but instead of becoming ill, their immune system fights it off, its still there though. In vaccinated and unvaccinated children, the chances of them being exposed to (and by exposed I mean the pathogen has entered their system) are absolutely the same. Wether or not my child has been vaccinated against whooping cough or not and they come into contact with the pertussis bacterium, the bacteria is in their system. Now, according to vaccine theory, the child fully immunized for pertussis’s immune system will be able to fight off the bacteria before it runs rampant in the system and starts to present symptoms…but ITS STILL THERE. The bacteria is still there in the immunized child that has been exposed.

    Vaccinating puts a definite temporary strain on the immune system in a greater way than simply being exposed to a pathogen naturally would. This is because in addition to the body having to mobilize to neutralize the threat of the pathogen that has been introduced, it is also having to deal with filtering the toxins out of the body that have just been injected directly into the bloodstream, toxins including thimerosal, mercury (its still there), aluminum (KNOWN neurotoxin), animal tissue, formaldehyde, and polysorbate 80. And it doesn’t particularly bother me, but many people find it appalling that aborted fetel cell tissue is used in the manufacturing of certain vaccines.

    In 1940, children were given 2 doses of 2 vaccines. In 1980 it stood at about 9 doses of 3 different vaccines for a total of 9 shots (multiple doses of same vaccine). By 2012 there were 49 total vaccinations on the schedule of 14 different vaccines. That’s too much!

    Another thing, the one size fits all attitude towards vaccines is disturbing. What other injectable drug do we give the same dose of to all individuals regardless if they are a 7 lb newborn or a 100 lb 12 year old, or 30 lb. 2 year old? None. We do it with vaccines though. Your child will get the same dose size, from the same drawer of vials as all other children that go through your doctors office. Makes no sense!

    Like

  87. AVW
    May 10, 2013 at 2:54 am

    Chris, I know you are trying real hard to sound intellectually superior to your non vax combatants but you place way to much emphasis on yr Pub Med pals….You under estimate how corrupted these papers are…..Big pharma may as well be standing over them with tasers and a big stick…..I like how these guys speak a completely different language to say something so simple…I guess its their way of attempted intimidation over us
    simpletons….We are not idiots and we can make up our own minds based on solid evidence and first hand vax damage experience…How bout you go up to a parent of a vax damaged child and tell them they didn’t see their child disappear before their eyes after the MMR vaccine…..I double dare ya!!!!!!

    Like

  88. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 2:58 am

    AVW, you are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. Produce actual verifiable evidence, not excuses.

    Like

  89. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 2:58 am

    Plus, the sock puppets make you look pathetic.

    Like

  90. May 10, 2013 at 5:35 am

    @Chris – wow, we’ve been infested over night…..

    Well, once again I point out that Todd’s excellent website:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Addresses a number of anti-vaccine myths, lies, and misrepresentations. Before you sock-puppets continue to post, I would recommend that you check it out.

    Like

  91. dingo199
    May 10, 2013 at 7:57 am

    @the Toby sockie:

    “are you saying that it’s better to get asthma, seizure disorders, autism, or thrombocytopenia than to get pertussis? Personally, I would say no.”

    False dichotomy – it isn’t as though someone getting vaccinated with DTaP will get these conditions, in fact their chance of getting any of these are vanishingly small or entirely non-existent.
    As a suitable analogy, imagine I ask this: “Are you saying is it better to get your face splashed with acid than get vaccinated? I would personally say no”

    “..the vast majority of those who caught pertussis had been recently vaccinated, but the vaccine is not very effective..”

    No. Those who caught pertussis were either those in whom the vaccine immunity was waning – which takes around 5-10 years- or those who had had pertussis before and whose natural immunity was waning – which takes around 10-15 years.
    “Recent” vaccination against pertussis is quite effective.
    “Natural” immunity is not permanent, as you assume. It fades too, which is probably why you caught it from your son.

    Like

  92. AVW
    May 10, 2013 at 8:08 am

    While you pair of clowns laugh it up,plenty of parents are watching their once intelligent kids disappear before their eyes….Obviously you haven’t been through that horrific experience…You can quote all the co opted, skewed data you wish…Those of us who have experienced vax damage first hand have it all over you and yr stupid research…The cash cow of big pharma wont get in the way of damaged kids anytime soon, but even our GP is aware of the vax backlash and its bigger than you halfwits know….get used to defending your indefensible position because its going to get harder and harder as kids get more chronic illness and people start to ask, why….Money is not a good enough reason to destroy our future…and give the sock puppet reference away…….yawn!!!!!

    Like

  93. May 10, 2013 at 8:27 am

    @AVW – “eye-witness” testimony is considered the most unreliable form of evidence. You don’t think researchers listened? Of course they did, which is why there are innumerable studies on vaccines, vaccine safety & autism…time and time again, those studies, whether done here in the US, overseas, by governments, by independent researchers, by educational institutions, etc. all show that vaccines are safe, effective, and not related to autism…..please stop with the anti-vaccine lies.

    Like

  94. novalox
    May 10, 2013 at 10:04 am

    @avw

    [citation needed], within 3 of your posts, or we can assume that you are lying.

    Also, using the pharma shill gambit is almost always a sure sign that you have no argument to speak of and instead resorting to insults.

    Like

  95. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 10:31 am

    AVW:

    .Obviously you haven’t been through that horrific experience…

    So how many times have you ridden in an ambulance with your child? That is not a fun time experience. Do you really understand the horror of having an infant and toddler have full on seizures in front of you?

    The first seizures denied him protection from pertussis as he was given only the DT vaccine, not the DTP vaccine. This was at a time when our county was having a pertussis outbreak (thank you, Barbara Low Fisher!), which near a time when over 120 Americans died from measles. Then there was the seizure he had with a now vaccine preventable disease, which meant several large firemen/paramedics hovering over a tiny little unconscious boy before getting into an ambulance.

    Now, you really need to provide the actual factual evidence that the vaccines are worse than the DTaP vaccine with real evidence. We do not need a repeat of Japan’s experience as noted in PMID 15889991.

    Like

  96. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 10:53 am

    AVW and Serina,
    Wonderful comments, thank you for participating! AVW, actually, they insult vaccine-damaged parents to their faces every day, look at any article they’ve posted for the last four years, and you’ll see. I’m trying to post the kind of study they ask for all the time, but am blocked.

    Like

  97. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 10:56 am

    I just tried again, but was blocked. I don’t know if it’s the name of the journal (Ped.) or the names of the per. vaccines involved that are blocked.

    Like

  98. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Chris,
    Ask the site manager to permit citations of studies confirming what we are saying, and we will do so.

    Like

  99. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Law,
    But no vax/unvax study! Congressman Posey has introduced a bill for a retrospective study, so that no children would be denied the “invaluable disease protection” that you say would prevent any scientific study ever being done on the issue. I assume you’re not going to be in favor of a retrospective study either? Afraid of what it will show?

    Like

  100. May 10, 2013 at 11:01 am

    @addie – don’t provide the link, just the PubMed ID# is fine.

    Parents who believe their children were affected by vaccines – to include autism, are misinformed & under-educated as to the actual Science.

    I find the descriptions of autistic children by the anti-vax cohorts (brain damaged, “not there,” a burden, not my child, etc, etc, etc) to be much more insulting than anything that has ever been posted here.

    Like

  101. May 10, 2013 at 11:02 am

    @Addie – how about all of the “retrospective” studies that have already been done?

    For example, https://imfar.confex.com/imfar/2013/webprogram/Paper12796.html

    Like

  102. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Chris,
    VA… 68561 2 1/2 year old girl gets DTaP and that same evening collapsed, went into cardiac arrest and died. Maybe this is short enough to get through.

    Like

  103. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:09 am

    Woot! 133897 11 monrh old boy gets DTaP and that same day, mother found him dead after nap. Cause of death acute pulmonary decompensation.

    Like

  104. May 10, 2013 at 11:09 am

    Or better yet – this summary / link to multiple research studies:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Like

  105. May 10, 2013 at 11:10 am

    @addie – you do understand the language on the disclaimer on VAERS, don’t you?

    Like

  106. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:11 am

    Chris, the tragedy of these and innumerable more children’s deaths is just as tragic as your own experience, which you think might have been avoided had your son gotten the vaccine most children now get. Maybe, maybe not. Many parents are deciding to take the risk of the diseases rather than the risk of the vaccines, for obvious reasons which you deny.

    Like

  107. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:12 am

    On a roll! When will I be shut down? 98504 10 month old boy gets DTaP and two days later develops pulmonal spasms and barking cough with asthma.

    Like

  108. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:14 am

    VAERS 187791 3 month old boy gets DTaP and dies five hours later.

    Like

  109. May 10, 2013 at 11:15 am

    @addie – unfortunately, we know the very real side-effects of diseases occur more frequently & are more debilitating (including blindness, deafness, sterility, encephalitis, secondary infections – including pneumonia, etc).

    The side-effects of vaccines, which are also very well known, don’t occur at anywhere near the frequency you claim (in fact, very serious side-effects happen so infrequently that it is nearly impossible to link them to vaccines).

    Get some facts for a change:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    Like

  110. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:16 am

    253739 5 month old girl gets DTaP and dies followiing day. Autopsy report said she was well the day of vax, after vax got fever, diarrhea, and vomiting. Became limp, caregiver gave CPR, taken to ER, and died. Family found this very tragic.

    Like

  111. May 10, 2013 at 11:17 am

    @Addie – did you know that during the last major outbreak of Rubella in the 1960’s, over 10,000 children died and many more suffered life-long disabilities due to congenital birth defects?

    Also, Rubella has been definitively linked to the onset of autism – so the MMR Vaccine actually prevents autism…..

    Again, get facts, not stories.

    Like

  112. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:20 am

    18 newborns died of pertussis last year in the epidemic. What right do you have to say that all infants must be vaccinated for pertussis and take the risk, when you look at a baby who reacts and say that he didn’t react? Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but what right do you have to tell parents which risk you will compel them to take?

    Like

  113. May 10, 2013 at 11:21 am

    @Addie – those 18 deaths are fact. Your stories are not facts….

    Like

  114. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:23 am

    Study in Am J or Dis of Chil documented neurological disorders following rubella shot. With one strain of the rubella virus, researchers ound polyneuropathies a rate of 2.2 cases per thousand doses. Symptoms persisted for more than two and a half years in several children. Since rubella given in MMR, it’s hard to separate out which vaccine caused which reactions (including death). Again, it’s the parents’ call, not yours.

    Like

  115. May 10, 2013 at 11:25 am

    @addie – you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. The research has been done & is being done and consistently shows that serious vaccine reactions are extremely rare (1 in 1mil is a fairly common statistic).

    Serious side effects of disease (like the measles for example) happen in as few as 1 in 1000 cases, including death.

    Again, those are facts – not the anti-vaccine lies you are trying to spread.

    Like

  116. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:25 am

    Parents’call, not yours. Again, since your camp denies that any reaction after a shot was caused by the shot, how many do you think believe you at this point?

    Like

  117. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:26 am

    Have you blocked Guillane, Serina, and AVW? Your facts are not those of the larger world increasingly sensitized to and terrified of vaccine damage.

    Like

  118. Addie
    May 10, 2013 at 11:29 am

    And most of the 18 newborns who died in the pertussis outbreak in the US last year were, statistically, infected by appropriately vaccinated individuals who had no idea they were carrying the disease. Why don’t you militate to bring back the more effective but even more dangerous DPT? Let’s see how far you get.

    Like

  119. May 10, 2013 at 11:39 am

    @addie – it isn’t about beliefs, it is about facts. The facts don’t support your beliefs – and since vaccination rates are still fairly high (with some significant gaps in anti-vaccine communities – who guess what, catch a larger percentage of vaccine-preventable diseases), you aren’t mainstream, you are fringe – and hopefully you stay there.

    And since studies have shown that neurological outcomes aren’t affected by vaccine administration, you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

    Like

  120. May 10, 2013 at 11:53 am

    @Addie – what your post #119 means:

    1) Adults need to be more diligent in making sure their vaccines are up to date.

    2) We need to continue to research and deploy better vaccines.

    I don’t see a problem there.

    Like

  121. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Addie:

    Ask the site manager to permit citations of studies confirming what we are saying, and we will do so.

    Email them yourself. I have had several of my comments disappear, and had no response.

    VAERS is not PubMed. Though you can tell us how to prevent this from happening here: PMID 15889991.

    Like

  122. May 10, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    @addie – what, no comment on this summary of the body of scientific evidence that shows no correlation between autism & vaccines?

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Like

  123. Karly
    May 10, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    I, unlike you, have other things I have to do.
    The very first study on your site was that bogus study released last month about vaccinated children in the ’80s all having the same number of antigens created by the vaccines as other children getting the same number of shots, but only some of them had autism. Didn’t look at genetic factors making some more likely to react than others to the same number of vaccines. Didn’t look at those receiving the immensely larger vaccine schedule now. And a quarter of the CONTROL group had symptoms of autism.

    Like

  124. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    Karly:

    Didn’t look at genetic factors making some more likely to react than others to the same number of vaccines.

    How would you determine those genetic factors from the medical records? Please provide a citation.

    Like

  125. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Also, what are the genetic factors? Do you have a citation noting the genetic sequences?

    Like

  126. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Also, if those genetic factors cause some to react to a vaccine more than others, how would genetic factors affect the child’s reaction to a real disease? Would these be the children who used to go to an early grave before the vaccines? Would Roald Dahl’s oldest child reacted to the vaccine badly based on her reaction to getting measles encephalitis?

    Like

  127. May 10, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    @Chris – so many sock-puppets, so little time…….

    How about all that research again………http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Like

  128. May 10, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    @Chris – to take a page out of the Anti-vaccine playbook, I simply refuse to believe any research sponsored by supporters of “Big Disease.” These individuals must surely be in the pay of Hospitals and Doctors that are assured of higher profits and greater revenue with the return of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases……

    Like

  129. Robert
    May 10, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    LOL. Sock Puppets? What a cop out and cry baby tactic. Truth counts and shows clearly no matter how many parents you call sock puppets. Why do you people do that instead of having civil conversation? Too much fact and proof for you to combat so you resort to attacks? That says a lot about you people and the fact vaccines are not what we thought. No citations needed because many are in the content of the posters who reveal the real facts.

    Like

  130. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    You do notice that when I ask for citations I mention the authors need to be qualified. The Geiers and Wakefield did research specifically to support vaccine lawsuits, and both MDs have lost their legal ability to practice medicine, and the younger Geier is under investigation for practicing medicine without a license.

    The US Courts transcripts of some of the vaccine cases have some very interesting things to say about the Geiers, and DAN! doctors like Jeffrey Bradstreet. These guys, just like many other who promote the “vaccines cause autism” bit are in it for the money.

    Like

  131. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    Robert:

    Truth counts and shows clearly no matter how many parents you call sock puppets.

    Then provide some. Give me the PubMed indexed study authored by a qualified researcher that shows the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. And by qualified researcher I mean someone who has not had their medical credentials legally removed, or are educated in unrelated fields like law, business, geology, computer science, etc. Remember that VAERS reports and random anecdotes are not real studies.

    I have provided at least nine PubMed Identification Numbers, and Lawrence provided an entire list of citations. If you have any actual truthful evidence, then present it.

    Like

  132. May 10, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    @Robert – I see no facts, I see a bunch of stories.

    BTW, prove to me that you’re not in the pocket of “Big Disease.” Do you own stock in companies that like Hospital & Doctor Organizations that will benefit from treating those who are infected with vaccine-preventable diseases? I think you’re a “Disease-Shill.”

    And trust me, if you want a civil conversation, you might want to start with:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Like

  133. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Perhaps he works for Jeffrey Bradstreet, just like woman did who joined the listserv for my son’s disability. She was posting all the anti-vax screeds, and then telling folks how Bradstreet helped her kid. It turns out, she worked for him.

    Like

  134. Val
    May 10, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Or, the kids who react from a genetic difference have more vigorous immune systems than average, and mount an aggressive response to threats, which ensured their survival in the days when threats meant diseases. Nowadays, these same kids with superior immune systems react to the threat of vaccines with extreme inflammation, with the obvious consequences we see all around us today. It’s not my job to figure out the genetic sequences which put some at greater risk than others from vaccines. Parents should be aware that vaccine researchers’ motto is D— the genetically different, full speed ahead! My family is never going to get another vaccine, we already know that we’re among the genetically superior who react badly to vaccines.

    Like

  135. May 10, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    @Val – wait, I thought the problem was people with “inferior” immune response shouldn’t get vaccines? Can’t you anti-vax people keep your stories straight?

    Oh wait, you can’t – since it was first the MMR, then thimerosol, then toxins, then too many, too soon, and so on and so forth…..and for the past two decades, no credible research as surfaced to validate any of those hypotheses.

    Also, if your immune system was so “superior” I would suspect that getting the actual disease would kill you (i.e. which is plausible – since it was the over-reaction of the immune system during the Spanish Flu that killed so many more previously healthy individuals).

    Oh yeah, and any actual citations to back up those claims?

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Like

  136. May 10, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    And if the CDC is in the pocket of “Big Pharma” why are adverse reactions reported at all?

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    Better yet, why is there a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? Don’t you think they’d do a better job of covering things up?

    Like

  137. Allen
    May 10, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    They don’t even admit cases alleging autism, they’re stuck in the ’80s. With no motivation to progress into the ’10s, in an age with one in twenty-five reacting to shots with autism. Where would it end? And why do you even mention the adverse reaction reporting system, since you think all such reports should be thrown in the trash?

    I never said that the genetically inferior shouldn’t get vaccines. I’ve said that people with neurological or autoimmune disease in themselves or their families shouldn’t get shots, but most of this disease was brought on by overzealous immune systems provoked by vaccines into attacking their own systems. Not inferior, though the outcome for the originally genetically superior individual is to cripple him in some way.

    Like

  138. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    Why is it such a small handful of people defending this post?

    Like

  139. Howie
  140. Ann
    May 10, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    I knew you knew the answer to that one, Howie. There used to be more, LL and K come to mind, but their contracts ran out.

    Like

  141. Ben
    May 10, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    The Spanish flu was unusual in its killing mostly young, healthy people in the prime of life, whose immune systems did indeed react overzealously, causing so much inflammation in their lungs that it killed many. Most flus are not like that, not usually killing those in the prime of life.

    Like

  142. May 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Why are there so few people who attack these posts & rely on sock-puppets to swell their numbers?

    A while back, an anti-vax individual asked me why I do this – I gave a very detailed and honest answer back then & would repeat the same today…..

    Again, these anti-vax sockpuppets have yet to provide a single shred of evidence to support their position.

    Like

  143. May 10, 2013 at 6:09 pm

    @Ben – H1N1 did almost the exact same thing, only in much smaller numbers (thank goodness for vaccinations). Not to mention the fact that it was also particularly lethal for pregnant women.

    Like

  144. May 10, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    @various sock-puppets – if you think the immune response to a vaccine is “severe” just imagine what the immune response would be to an actual disease that involved 1000x or more number of antigens to respond to.

    The science just doesn’t make sense to support that position – and because you haven’t provided any evidence, I would say that you’re lying.

    Like

  145. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    Lawrence I have read quite a few responses, as would anyone reading thru these comments, that have documented objections to your view. It would appear that either you fit the bill of a shill or you have your head buried in the sand. I think the term for your condition would be cognitive dissonance, but I suspect that you know exactly what you are doing. If multiple people disagree with you they must be “sock puppets”? What in the heck is that? Are you making this stuff up as you go?

    Like

  146. May 10, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    @Howie – many of the anti-vax individuals that post on this site are actually a single individual who decides to post under a multiple names…that’s a fact.

    I don’t see any documented objections, do you?

    Of course, I’ve submitted the following:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Care to comment?

    Like

  147. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    First, I don’t see what your link has to do with your “claim” of “fact”. Citation please, otherwise you are just making it up.

    I don’t see any documented evidence of your “facts”. Why is it okay for you to demand citations but you proclaim “facts” without any foundation?

    I really don’t take anything from the AAP seriously as they are virtually completely funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Ever hear of “conflict of interest”? I have read many studies and have found that often the conclusions don’t match the data or the authors are conflicted in interest or, in some cases, even embezzle funding…

    Like

  148. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Val:

    Or, the kids who react from a genetic difference have more vigorous immune systems than average, and mount an aggressive response to threats, which ensured their survival in the days when threats meant diseases.

    That sounds like a guess. Do you have a citation to support that claim?

    Also wouldn’t that vigorous immune system cause even more symptoms with an actual disease? Like filling the lungs up with “protective fluid” leading to pneumonia?

    Like

  149. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    In fact, how would anyone know if you and Chris and novalox and lara lohne aren’t all the same people then? Go on then…PROVE IT!!!

    Like

  150. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Howie:

    I don’t see any documented evidence of your “facts”. Why is it okay for you to demand citations but you proclaim “facts” without any foundation?

    The PMID numbers posted in comments 17, 38 and 84 are actual evidence. Go to PubMed, put the numbers in the search box and the paper will present itself. Plus Lawrence has posted the pdf with several citations. Do you need instructions on how to open a pdf file?

    Like

  151. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    Howie, just look at the avatars.

    Like

  152. May 10, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    @Chris – howie is nothing but a standard troll. The AAP link includes at least two dozen PubMed citations that refute the vaccine-autism link on a variety of levels, from a variety of sources (and even international).

    When all you have left is to claim “conspiracy” you’ve lost the argument.

    Like

  153. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    All of the other people commenting have different avatars… so what? And Chris (or is it Lawrence???), you (or Lawrence???) have claimed the “fact” that everyone on here who disagrees with you is (are) the same person (people). PROVE IT!!

    Like

  154. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Lawrence (Chris) I have not mentioned anything about conspiracies or anything else. Is that from your playbook? When in absence of rebuttal that is verifiable throw out the “conspiracy” accusation??? How sad are you?

    Like

  155. May 10, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    @Howie – how about a rebuttal on http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    And if you claim the AAP (and the over two-dozen studies cited) are a cover-up, you are claiming conspiracy…..

    Like

  156. Chris
    May 10, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    So, Howie, you missed that my avatar is a picture? I see how you are very observant. :-/

    Like

  157. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    Thank you so much for putting words in my mouth Lawrence (Chris, Lara, et.al.). I guess when you have no other comeback, then you accuse of being a conspiracist then, eh? I made no claim of a cover up. I merely highlighted a gross conflict of interest which you have basically accepted. You have also failed to prove that you are not all the same people with different email addresses. You have also failed to rebut anything about my link to the playbook of the shill, which you continue to follow, I might add. So, where is your proof of “sock puppets” or that you are not one, or two or three or more? You are very good at deflecting questions of your own integrity. I will categorically state that I am only who I say I am and am not posting under any other names.

    Like

  158. May 10, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @Robert – if you look at responses #134 & 137 – you’ll see a text book example of a “sock puppet”

    Like

  159. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    And Chris (Lawrence, etc.) anybody who can “sock puppet” can certainly place different avatars pictures with each one. What is your point?

    Like

  160. May 10, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    @Howie – so, no direct rebuttal of the science presented, other than to say “bias?”

    Typical anti-vax behavior. So, what is your evidence to the contrary Howie?

    Like

  161. May 10, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    @Howie – something I saw on your link that you seemed not to consider “important”

    Update 4/3/2012: Above Top Secret’s legal agent never responded to our request for clarification of their takedown request. The original thread has now been moved to the “Hoax” category of the website, as ATS claims the author admitted it was a hoax in a private exchange. To the best of our knowledge, this private exchange or the details thereof have not been posted publicly to substantiate this claim. Regardless, we believe that covert operations to manipulate online opinion and debate do exist (and indeed have been publicly acknowledged in many of the supporting links below). Whether this specific case is true or not, it remains a valuable and provocative dialogue still worthy of consideration.

    So – turns out the story wasn’t true after all, but somehow, these people still believe that it is “real” or something?

    There is a reason you people are fringe, and that sums it up right there.

    Like

  162. May 10, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    @Howie – please feel free to send an email to the owner of this site. She can confirm who is & isn’t a sock puppet…and trust me when I say, that it isn’t happening on this side of the fence (as we have documented one particular individual using more than a dozen separate ‘nyms to get around various bans & posting the same garbage over and over and over again).

    Like

  163. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    First, my friend of crazy appearance, who is Robert? Second, your science claims are irrelevant to the “fact” that you accuse others of being “sock puppets” yet you cannot prove that you and Lara and Chris and novalox and the rest in support aren’t. If science were “settled” by one study, why are there multiple studies of the same issues? Let me just give you ONE tidbit to chew on:

    http://vactruth.com/2012/09/18/fda-vaccine-autism-sids/#!prettyPhoto

    You will, no doubt, claim that the source is questionable, but the screen shots are not.

    Like

  164. May 10, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    @Howie – not to mention the link you posted has nothing to do with the topic at hand……any actual evidence to produce? (and I already know the answer – of course you don’t)

    Like

  165. May 10, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    @Howie – lol, seriously? Vactruth? Any reputable sources, any at all?

    Crazy is as crazy does, and you’ve taken the cake. Care to throw some Whale.to references in as well?

    Like

  166. May 10, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    And with one final comment, I’ll leave you to it Howie – since you’ve gone down the typical anti-vax troll path:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Like

  167. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Lawrence (Chris, et.al.) lack of clarifications does not “prove” anything. You still follow exactly what they claim to be the modus operandi of a shill which means that you prove the point more than the claim itself. My, how you like to use the basic arguments of those who disagree with you against them when it suits. You are such a hypocrite!!

    Also, why should I email the owner of the site? YOU made the “factual” claim not them! Or are you in fact also Christine Vara? An no, I don’t trust you at all!

    Like

  168. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 7:27 pm

    From your link: Many anti-vaxers express concern over the hepatitis B vaccine, often claiming that hepB is a sexually transmitted disease. While that is primarily true, it can be transmitted via other means, such as “Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person”. What this means is that if an infant comes in contact with the body fluids of an infected individual (e.g., family, hospital visitors, undiagnosed hospital staff, children at day care or day care workers), then they can contract the disease. This can be quite serious, because the younger a person is when infected, the more likely they are to develop chronic infection, which can lead to liver cancer and other serious complications.”

    Give me a break!! Are you for real??? Do you honestly believe that there are “hospital visitors, undiagnosed hospital staff” or other children bleeding all over new born babies??? The ONLY real risk of infection is from the mother. If she is not infected then the chances of infection are ZERO! And you call that “proof”? It is only proof your your own insanity!

    By the way, thanks for proving my point about your response. The site may be vactruth, the screenshots were from John Hopkins Vaccine Safety Website. It’s easy to dismiss the site, it’s not so easy to dismiss the source, or do you think John Hopkins University is involved in anti-vaccine propaganda? You are a piece of work Lawrence (Chis, Christine, Lara, et. al.).

    Like

  169. Howie
    May 10, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    By the way, why do you attack vactruth but not there verifiable references? Like National Institute of Health, the CDC, the FDA and others?

    Like

  170. Gray Falcon
    May 10, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    @Howie: When you accuse your opponents of being “shills” without any evidence, you’re basically admitting that you don’t have a counter for their argument, and forfeit by default. Just so you know.

    Like

  171. May 10, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    @gray – notice how Howie doesn’t address the obvious sock-puppet at #134 & 137

    Like

  172. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2013 at 12:10 am

    @Howie et al…

    Please try to use some logic, I know you may be out of practice, but please at least try.

    First off, different people have different manners of speaking, even when communicating over the internet. That being the case, anyone who is actually actively participating and listening (so to speak) to everyone commenting can distinguish between different people because of how they use words.

    Secondly, you demand that we prove we aren’t all one and the same individual, yet that would require giving extremely detailed and personal information over the internet to complete strangers. Sorry, but I have issue with people of certain belief systems to have that kind of personal information about me because I have been threatened by such people with physical violence in the past. I’d go back to using my original nym but since I do pride myself on my integrity, I feel compelled to continue presenting myself how people know me.

    Thirdly, going back to my original point, that the use of words can be used by others to determine if one person is separate from another, the same principal can be applied on the other side of that argument. Meaning, since the words being used, the manner of phrasing those words are the same by all these ‘individuals’ it’s a fairly safe bet they are in fact all the same one individual rather then multiple different people.

    Like

  173. Howie
    May 11, 2013 at 2:51 am

    I have not asked anyone to do anything. The proof of shilling is in the performance Lawrence (Chris, novolox, Lara, Christine et. al.) Now you start with the personal attacks.

    “Please try to use some logic, I know you may be out of practice…”

    Please read my link again. You are following it almost perfectly. Even if you are all separate people, there is only like 5 of you defending this “popular” blog source of information. Either this blog isn’t quite as popular as you think or most people who read it see it as indefensible. Funny thing is that I looked back over random posts with the most comments and it seems to pretty much always be the same defenders with the same arguments. Almost like bots.

    Like

  174. Narad
    May 11, 2013 at 4:00 am

    The ONLY real risk of infection is from the mother. If she is not infected then the chances of infection are ZERO!

    You lose.

    Like

  175. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2013 at 4:56 am

    That wasn’t an attack, merely an observation and kind of meant to be funny. And you are changing your original assumption that we are all the same person to being we are all ‘pharma shills’. And ad hominems are off topic and pointless so I’ll not even respond to that. But it is late and I am tired so I’m off to bed.

    Like

  176. Howie
    May 11, 2013 at 8:23 am

    Narad you should read what you post. Aside from the fact that Pediatrics is of questionable integrity due to conflicts of interest, here is what you study says:

    “Objective. To estimate the number of hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections among US children younger than 10 years before implementation of routine childhood hepatitis B immunization.”

    Note this is not a study, it is an estimate. So how did they estimate cases?

    Sources of data for the models included published and unpublished surveys…”

    Published and unpublished? Okay so there is no way to verify any of the data as at least some of it is not available because it was never publicly published. If that doesn’t raise a red flag, I don’t know what would. Anyway, going on it talks about incidence in under 10’s and provides zero information on source of infection. I would have thought that this would be relevant given that the vaccine is given at birth. Also the actual age of infection would shed light on whether a vaccine would be effective or not.

    Going on:

    Estimated annual rates of infection ranged from 24 per 100 000 in non-Asian children to 2580 per 100 000 in children of Southeast Asian immigrant mothers. These rates indicate that by the early 1990s, HBV was infecting 16 000 children who were younger than 10 years…”

    Well that’s funny, since Hep B is a reportable disease and reported acute cases for ALL ages never exceeded 30,000 in any given year and was in decline before the vaccine introduction and that rate of decline was unaffected by the vaccine. How do I know this? The CDC tells me so.

    http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/hbv/hbvfaq.htm

    Funny how a reportable disease is estimated by the CDC to 300% higher than the legally required number of reported cases…. What is the basis for the “estimate”? Nobody actually says how this comes about, but we do know that in 2008 over 90% of “reported” swine flu cases had not contracted any for of flu at all. It seems silly to take reports and make upward estimates when laboratory confirmation always reduces the number of confirmed cases. The latest measles outbreak from Wales has the same problem. 300 odd cases reported in February, only a handful actually positive, 800 cases in March, only 1 positive. A man died after contracting measles but it was not the cause of death although it was reported to be in the press AND he was fully vaccinated as well.

    Is it any wonder these pseudo-science studies and statistics aren’t trusted?

    Like

  177. Sue
    May 11, 2013 at 10:38 am

    Lawrence,
    The reason the Spanish flu was so devastating to young healthy adults with immune systems in peak condition was that it was a completely new flu that no one’s immune system had had even partial experience with in the past, so, when their immune systems were confronted with such an unknown quantity, they went into so zealous an inflammatory response that it killed the person. It was an H1N1 flu, as was the flu four years ago which was so hyped. That flu was also more dangerous to young, healthy adults, not so dangerous to people who had been around in the mid-’70s, at the time of that flu epidemic. They said that people who had been around then had immune systems which still remembered exposure to that flu, and still protected them. But, since H1N1 is not longer totally new, that flu epidemic turned out not to be as awful as they had feared. Sort of like Ebola, a totally new disease started by eating bush meat and catching the ape virus: people’s immune systems were so shocked by a completely new disease that they went into overdrive to combat it, leading to many victims dying horribly from their own extreme inflammatory responses. And, of course, that’s what we have now in regard to vaccines: really alert immune systems go into hyperdrive when confronted with the cocktail of pathogens, chemicals, and foreign proteins in the vaccines, leading to encephalitis (brain damage) and/or autoimmune disease.

    Like

  178. Sue
    May 11, 2013 at 10:42 am

    Dingo,
    Even your colleagues, as well as CDC doctor Anne Schuchat, admit that the acellular pertussis vaccine is often ineffective in many people shortly after they get it, providing no protection to them. My son got the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, and still caught pertussis at 8 months, and gave it to me. And thousands more like them.

    Like

  179. Lawrence
    May 11, 2013 at 10:45 am

    @sue – so any actual evidence to support your “hypothesis?”

    Like

  180. Cady
    May 11, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Lawrence,
    #100, Are you tentatively trotting out the new pharma party line, product of feverish backroom conferences in the wake of the CDC announcement of one in fifty kids with autism now? They’ve decided that if you can’t beat them, join them, so are promoting the new idea that autism’s great, just an interesting “difference,” in no way a disability. Those who think that being able to speak, converse, reason, work at a meaningful job, empathize with others, and raise a family are part of the human heritage are bigoted, and in now way is being supported by government agencies all your life a sign of being less capable than others. And those who are unhappy at the idea or the reality of their children having autism are bigots and crummy people, to be shunned by the happy majority who doesn’t mind autism at all no matter what the numbers or how preventable it is.

    Like

  181. Cady
    May 11, 2013 at 11:06 am

    Wonderful posts, Howie, keep it up!

    Like

  182. Lawrence
    May 11, 2013 at 11:09 am

    @cady – given that I know a number of autistic adults who are happy, healthy, have and raise successful families and ate gainfully employed, I have no idea what you are blathering about.

    Autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis.

    Like

  183. Lawrence
    May 11, 2013 at 11:12 am

    @cady – one of is caring and compassionate towards those diagnosed with autism or other developmental issues….and by your words, I can say, without a doubt that person is not you.

    Like

  184. novalox
    May 11, 2013 at 11:43 am

    @sue, cady

    [citation needed]

    Like

  185. Katy
    May 11, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    And yet it is also true that if someone is speeding down Main St. trying to escape the police car behind him, hits and leaves paraplegic for life someone trying to cross the street, while everyone will be very kind and supportive to the victim, no one is going to say that he does not have a big problem that the perpetrator should not be punished for, or that there is no need for steps to be taken to prevent such situations from happening again in the future. My son’s school, for example, just put in a system in which all visitors to the school between eight-thirty and four have to press a buzzer outside the door and arrange for the staff to let them enter.

    Like

  186. Katy
    May 11, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    And those autistic adults you mention are at the top end of the spectrum, what used to be called Asperger”s. The bottom 90% will never enjoy even the semblance of a normal life. I guess you saw the article last week about the autism mom of an adult male still at the developmental level of an infant who abandoned him because she just couldn’t handle taking care of him any longer. Many residential facilities for autistics have waiting lists of thousands.

    Like

  187. May 11, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    @Katy – and your citations / evidence are, what exactly?

    Like

  188. May 11, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    @Katy – and your “supposition” about their diagnosis is actually incorrect. They actually fell pretty much across the spectrum, yet they were able to overcome their issues & are now nearly indistinguishable from anyone else (in fact, a couple are much more interesting than a number of my other friends).

    Again, autism is not developmental stasis, it is characterized by developmental delay. With appropriate therapies (not the quack kind) autistic children can make substantial progress and improve their qualities of life.

    See, you see them as “damaged goods,” when in fact they are human beings.

    Like

  189. Chris
    May 11, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    Howie:

    By the way, why do you attack vactruth but not there verifiable references?

    Because it was not a study but a warping of the cherry picked citations (a screen shot of a Johns Hopkins website). It is not showing any real science, but just guesses wrapped up in a conspiracy theory. Oh, and the random colored fonts don’t help.

    I am asking you for the PubMed indexed study showing the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis by a qualified researcher. Not the interpretation of data by a biased person.

    Like

  190. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    To get back on topic here, earlier this week, I sent a letter to my legislators to ask that they support SB132 in my state and gave my reasons why. It was awful watching my older children suffer *yes, they suffered* through chicken pox before the vaccine was available. I’ve seen my share of illness in myself and other family members also growing up due to lack of vaccination, enough to know that allowing these diseases to come back really isn’t something, when someone actually takes the time to think about it, anyone really wants to happen. This shouldn’t be about who is ‘right’ versus who is ‘wrong’. This is a matter of public health and our children’s safety while at public school. And there are children who attend public school or are immunosupressed and/or compromised that need community immunity to be strong. Therefore, high rates of full and complete adherence to immunization recommendations.

    Like

  191. Kathy
    May 11, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    So you and your children are free to get the varicella vax if you’re so afraid of chickenpox. You don’t need to try to force everyone’s children to take the vax. Everyone is aware that the option is there. My daughters and I have all had chickenpox, and, as it is in most people, it was no big deal. Some are aware of the FDA/CDC study published in the J of the Am Med Assn, , Sept 13, 2000; 1271-79, that found that there was a rate of adverse reactions in 67.5 per 100,000 doses sold, including 6.3 % of children under 4 and 9.2 % of children under two having serious adverse reactions. If my child has a one in ten chance or even one in twenty chance (even one in a thousand etc.) of having a serious adverse reaction, you have no right to make me get him the vax. You had a bad case, fine, go get the vax, you have such bad luck with communicable diseases, you’ll probably get it again.

    Like

  192. Lawrence
    May 11, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    @kathy – if you don’t like the requirements, don’t send your kids to public school.

    Like

  193. Chris
    May 11, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Or just get the exemption, but be prepared to keep you children at home if there is a chicken pox outbreak.

    Like

  194. Chris
    May 11, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    A link to go with those who are told to stay home if they are not vaccinated:
    http://triblive.com/news/westmoreland/3998303-74/students-prom-incubation#axzz2T0yeRFaB

    Obviously the exemption form should make it clear that when a disease happens, the children without vaccines will be asked to stay home.

    Like

  195. Narad
    May 11, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Narad you should read what you post.

    Actually, you should try to remember what you yourself wrote. You wholly denied the existence of horizontal transmission in children. You’re demonstrably, laughably wrong, and no amount of whining that Pediatrics “is of questionable integrity” or that it “is not a study” is going to change that.

    Published and unpublished? Okay so there is no way to verify any of the data as at least some of it is not available because it was never publicly published. If that doesn’t raise a red flag, I don’t know what would.

    The only unpublished data are Wojczynski’s and a portion of the Hawaii data, both used to estimate the prevalence of HBsAg-positive mothers. If you have a quarrel about the figures (0.17% and 1.2%, respectively), make it instead of yammering about “red flags.” (You did read the actual text, right?) Perhaps you would like to explain how you arrive at the “conclusion” that this implies that “there is no way to verify any of the data.”

    Anyway, going on it talks about incidence in under 10′s and provides zero information on source of infection. I would have thought that this would be relevant given that the vaccine is given at birth.

    Leaving aside the fact that this attempt at logic is the equivalent of slipping on a banana peel, what part of “before hepatitis B immunization” do you not understand? Remember, “if [the mother] is not infected then the chances of infection are ZERO!”

    Also the actual age of infection would shed light on whether a vaccine would be effective or not.

    Again, what part of “nonperinatal” eludes you?

    Well that’s funny, since Hep B is a reportable disease and reported acute cases for ALL ages never exceeded 30,000 in any given year and was in decline before the vaccine introduction and that rate of decline was unaffected by the vaccine.

    Infected children rarely develop acute disease, but 25 to 90% become chronic carriers.” Oops.

    A quarter of those chronic carriers wind up with cirrhosis or HCC.

    Is it any wonder these pseudo-science studies and statistics aren’t trusted?

    Is it any wonder that that the only people impressed by your performance are commenters with pseudonyms with half-lives of several hours?

    Like

  196. Howie
    May 12, 2013 at 1:44 am

    It would appear that I have/had been blocked from posting from a moderator.

    Like

  197. Howie
    May 12, 2013 at 1:58 am

    Ah, perhaps now allowed again!!

    Narad, I was referring to newborns, not 10 year olds. It is impossible to distinguish the difference from your “study” of “estimates” (or made up numbers). As I pointed out with the verifiable swine flu outbreak of 2008 (90% of clinical diagnoses were wrong) and the current measles outbreak of 2012/2013 in Wales(99% of clinical diagnoses were wrong), reported clinical incidence is virtually always revised DOWN upon laboratory confirmation as doctors do tend to err on the side of caution when an outbreak has been announced and anyone showing any symptom is automatically reported. Given that fact, using “estimated” figures some 300% HIGHER than reported (unconfirmed) cases makes the entire study completely worthless.

    Let me refresh your short term memory. Here is what I said,

    “Do you honestly believe that there are “hospital visitors, undiagnosed hospital staff” or other children bleeding all over new born babies??? The ONLY real risk of infection is from the mother. If she is not infected then the chances of infection are ZERO!”

    So why do you go on like a condescending parent when I have referred specifically to newborns and you are referring to a report for under 10’s with no reference points for newborns whatsoever and uses randomly made up numbers anyway? I think that is called “bait and switch” when you ignore the actual point, change it to suit your needs and then “prove” your point against the point that you yourself made, not the other person….or is that “straw man”? Whatever it is, your are debating yourself now.

    Like

  198. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 2:07 am

    We have all had comments disappear. It is because of some who need to use sock puppets instead of real evidence. Now, Howie, where is the PMID to the study that shows the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis?

    Like

  199. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 3:42 am

    Given that fact, using “estimated” figures some 300% HIGHER than reported (unconfirmed) cases makes the entire study completely worthless.

    Did you the part about childhood infections rarely presenting as acute cases fail to sink in? I’m not interested in your flailing about with “Swine flu!” and “Wales!” and “You are all the same person with different E-mail addresses and part of a shadowy conspiracy, I have a post from Conscious Life News since moved to the ‘hoax’ category that explains it all!”

    So why do you go on like a condescending parent when I have referred specifically to newborns

    If you can read, you should know perfectly well that what you were referring to was not just talking about newborns. But, given a link to the entire site, you homed in on this to attack the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine. Fine: Let’s assume that your only quibble was with neonates, your subsequent railing about all the rest of the data notwithstanding, and that you scoff at the possibility of false-negative HBsAg results, the window effect, errors, and occult HBV infection. When do you think the vaccine series should start?

    Like

  200. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 3:45 am

    ^ “Did you miss”

    Like

  201. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 3:47 am

    No, strike that: “Did the part”.

    Like

  202. Chemmomo
    May 12, 2013 at 3:54 am

    Howie, re comment #197 “verifiable swine flu outbreak of 2008”

    What swine flu outbreak in 2008?

    No one was counting “swine flu” cases in 2008. The H1N1 pandemic strain emerged in April 2009. If you want anyone to take your argument seriously, at least get the year right.

    Like

  203. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 5:47 am

    Amusingly, though, Howie’s measles trip is simple channeling of Clifford Miller. One small problem, aside from not understanding what an outbreak is (and getting the months wrong for notifications, as well as the numbers), is that all of the UK cases outside of Wales are laboratory confirmed. Oh, and the April lab-confirmed figure within Wales came in at 215 out of 621 notifications. So much for “99% wrong.”

    Like

  204. Cara
    May 12, 2013 at 11:19 am

    Narad,
    Children can catch hep B horizontally, but very rarely do, because they very rarely have sex with a hep B carrier or share infected drug needles with them. Before the devastating vaccine program for all newborns began in 1991 in the US, an average of only 360 babies and children a year were diagnosed with hep B. Morb and Mort Weekly Report 2002; 51(25): 549-552, 563. From chart at end, saying in late ’80s and early ’90s, 1 case per 100,000 kids ages 0-9. /Census said 36 million children in this age group in US in 1990. Thence, 360 cases a year, average, most born to infected mothers.

    Like

  205. Cara
    May 12, 2013 at 11:23 am

    So then why did researchers say the incidence was 30,000 infants and children a year being infected with hep B? Some might say it was just to get the lucrative vaccine program started. 30,000 a year figure from Margolis, Ped Inf Dis Jour 1992; 11: 866-874. Merck was a sponsor of this paper, and one of the doctors on the committee worked for Merck, listed in footnote on first page.

    Like

  206. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm

    Cara:

    Children can catch hep B horizontally, but very rarely do, because they very rarely have sex with a hep B carrier or share infected drug needles with them.

    But they do skin their knees and bleed on play equipment. They also go to dentists, are known to bit other children, sneeze saliva in other peoples faces, and other things at noted here: http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2100nrs.pdf

    Like

  207. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 12:13 pm
  208. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Cara, who sponsored this study: Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 Sep;24(9):755-60

    It is a bit more recent.

    Like

  209. Cara
    May 12, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Lawrence,
    If you don’t like the requirements that religious or philosophical exemptions must be granted and the children allowed in school, maybe you should homeschool your children.

    Like

  210. Cara
    May 12, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Chris,
    But their bleeding hep B infected blood on playground equipment would mean they had hep B to start with: pregnant women have been routinely screened for hep B for many years, their babies given the vax at birth. Children do not engage in sex or IV drug use with hep-B carriers, at least not unless it were a very unusual and criminal situation. Where do you think all these children are acquiring the disease? It’s like AIDS, are you this frenetic about children catching AIDS from HIV postitive children bleeding on playground equipment? Do they routinely test children for hep-B to find out how many are carriers?

    Like

  211. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Cara, you might try reading the document I linked to. One child transmitted hepatitis by biting another child, another transmitted hepatitis by sneezing into the face of his teacher, which infected both her and her unborn baby.

    Also the hepatitis test is not terribly accurate.

    Like

  212. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Also, hepatitis B is endemic in Asia. States like Oregon have large numbers of immigrants from the large continent to the west of them on the other side of the Pacific. Which is why the western states and British Columbia were the first to require HepB vaccination for school attendance.

    And you might also try reading the 2005 article I cited.

    Like

  213. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Some more reading:
    http://www.pkids.org/immunizations/HBV_kids_infect_kids.html
    http://www.pkids.org/diseases/hepatitis/pediatric_hepatitis_report.html

    There are several disease/vaccine myths that keep getting repeated, and the one about hepatitis b is transmitted sexually or by needle sticks is one of those. So do try to open your mind.

    The other myths are that vaccines are administered directly into the bloodstream, that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is available only with thimerosal, that the MMR had thimerosal, or that the MMR was only given after 1988. Plus a few others. When someone tries to argue with one of these myths you can usually tell they don’t know much about the subject.

    Like

  214. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Before the devastating vaccine program for all newborns began in 1991 in the US, an average of only 360 babies and children a year were diagnosed with hep B.

    You are merely repeating Howie’s error, which is to ignore the fact, quite clearly pointed out above, that infected children rarely develop acute disease, which is what is being counted in that MMWR.

    Oh, and please do document the “devastating” part.

    Thence, 360 cases a year, average, most born to infected mothers.

    You might want to work on your ciphering. You can’t take the total number of cases aged 1–9, come up with “360 cases per year,” and then assert that most were “born to infected mothers.”

    Like

  215. Vera
    May 12, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    Narad,
    It was age 0-9, not 1-9. I had made a mistake when I first typed it, but, before posting, changed the one to zero. Did the program switch it back to 1? Most of those getting it were newborns born to infected mothers. Have you read Patti White’s congressonal testimony on the devastaton of the hep-B vax? There have been more adverse event reports filed on it than on all the other vaxes put together.

    Most vaccines are injected intramuscularly, and, since there are millions of blood capillaries in every square millimeter of flesh, anything injected into the muscle is quickly absorbed into the bloodstream, where the vaccine sets off immune system alarms usually reserved for last ditch efforts to save the life of the host, efforts which are risky since they require mounting extreme inflammatory responses which may kill or disable the host.

    Chris, open your mind. The photo in your avatar shows someone in a big hat. Man? Woman? Lawrence? Who knows? Hep B in children is often more serious than in adults, but very rarely occurs. But, as Narad observed, most cases of hep-B in anyone are subclinical and never cause symptoms. In most cases, the host eventually converts back to seronegtive for hep-B and recovers. Usually it is only drug adicts and alcoholics who, because of the damage done to their livers by their addictions, progress to serious liver damage and/or cancer and die. Everyone else may or may not be sick for a long time, but most eventually recover and do not die.

    Like

  216. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    That is not a hat, that is a book. Something you might try reading someday.

    And if you posted something earlier, “Vera”, what name were you using.

    Like

  217. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    Vera/Cara/whoever:

    Have you read Patti White’s congressonal testimony on the devastaton of the hep-B vax? There have been more adverse event reports filed on it than on all the other vaxes put together.

    Citation needed. As in PubMed indexed study, and not congressional testimony nor VAERS reports.

    Like

  218. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    Also, why do you keep changing your name? Pick one and stick to it. The sock puppet bit is pathetic.

    Like

  219. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    It was age 0-9, not 1-9. I had made a mistake when I first typed it, but, before posting, changed the one to zero. Did the program switch it back to 1?

    Thank you for conceding in no uncertain terms that “Vera” == “Cara”. The data in the MMWR are ages 1–9. I have no idea what you’re saying with the rest of this.

    Most of those getting it were newborns born to infected mothers.

    You have failed on several counts here. First, you continue to ignore, in your “1 in 360” pseudo-calculation, that such infections are overwhelmingly asymptomatic. Second, you seem to be assuming that perinatal infection is magically going to pop up as acute disease anywhere from 1 to 9 years later. Hep B doesn’t work like this. Acute hepatitis tends to show up ~60 days after infection. If you remain a carrier, it next comes a-callin’ with liver disease way down the line.

    So, start showing me acute hepatitis cases from perinatal transmission, or kindly stop rambling incoherently.

    Like

  220. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    Interestingly, one of my comments disappeared into the ether. Then I removed three letters that are the initials of the Culinary Institute of America, and it posted. I suspect it is probably related to the identity of one of those who uses sock puppets.

    Like

  221. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    Everyone else may or may not be sick for a long time, but most eventually recover and do not die.

    For children aged 1–5, HBV leads to chronic infection in 25%–30% of cases.

    Like

  222. Chris
    May 12, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    And often that chronic infection leads to an early death from cancer.

    Like

  223. Jill
    May 12, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    Chronic infection only leads to death from cancer in alcoholics and drug addicts, or people with preexisting or later acquired liver disease. People of Southeast Asian genetic background are more prone to contract hep-B at any age. In Australia and New Zealand, there is some hep-B among children of Southeast Asian or Maori background, but none among children of Caucasian background. And if only including you know what letters keeps your post from posting, then that answers your question about picking a name and sticking to it. Most people who contract hep B make a complete recovery. And your point about the dentist would hold equally true if the dentist caught HIV from exposure to a patient’s blood. It might happen, but it’s unlikely, and the dentist wearing mask and gloves further protects both him and the patient. Many dentist get the hep-B vax, which I think is ill-advised, and it is said not to work on those older than thirty. It’s your call if you’re so worried about your dentist having HIV or hep-B that you don’t want to go to the dentist.

    Like

  224. Jill
    May 12, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    Narad,
    It was in the Morb and Mort Weekly that I cited, that there was only one case in 100,000 of hep B around 1990 in those 0 to 9 years old, so one in 360 with 36,000,000 in that age group in the US in 1990.

    Like

  225. Jill
    May 12, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    Narad,
    360 cases a year diagnosed, Even if there were tens of thousands more undiagnosed as children, I think you need to prove its presence before giving a dangerous vaccine the first day of life in every newborn whose parents don’t protect the baby from it strenuously. How did the researchers in the ’80s make the jump to 30,000 a year? I’ve read it’s because many adults with hep-B denied being drug addicts, alcoholics, or sexually promiscuous (which many people in their situation would deny whether or not it were true), so the researchers went Hmmm, in that case he must have gotten it as a child, but never knew it. Let’s vax every newborn in America! But it was never demonstrated.

    Like

  226. novalox
    May 12, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    @jill

    [citation needed]

    Like

  227. Narad
    May 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    It was in the Morb and Mort Weekly that I cited, that there was only one case in 100,000 of hep B around 1990 in those 0 to 9 years old, so one in 360 with 36,000,000 in that age group in the US in 1990.

    1. I am not going to respond further to name changes. Indeed, the fact that you have done so at least three times (where’s “Howie”?), compounded with the following, inclines me to unilaterally declare that you have conceded every point of Howie/Cara/Vena/Jill contention.

    2. By “in the Morb and Mort Weekly that I cited,” do you mean the one that I actually linked to for all to see? The one that plainly states that it is ages 1–9, which leaves you to defend the notion that these were somehow all perinatal cases?

    Like

  228. Chris
    May 13, 2013 at 12:06 am

    Jill/Cara/Vera/etc:

    Chronic infection only leads to death from cancer in alcoholics and drug addicts, or people with preexisting or later acquired liver disease. </blockquote.

    Tell that to the dad who wrote this:
    http://www.bgladd.com/1in3/

    But you won't. You are the evil person who thinks measles is okay because it "only" killed nine people in Europe. You just keep making stuff up. You used to be intelligent. You have a PhD in Spanish and a law degree. But now you have this condition that makes you write stuff that twenty years ago would have made you angry. This is why when we call you out with your real name the posts disappear, because there is a reason you were banned.

    Seriously, woman who lives in Missouri, get some real professional help.

    Like

  229. Ken
    May 13, 2013 at 9:27 am

    Narad,
    It was #204. It clearly stated. 0 to 9 years of age. Before the hep B for newborns program started in 1991, there was an average of 360 cases of diagnosed hep B in babies/children. At this time, there are about 7500 new cases diagnosed every year in the US, and of those, about 6000 are in adults and 1300 in teens and college kids, leaving 200 in those younger than college age: 70 cases a year in kids 5 through fourteen, 30 in kids one to four, 30 in babies in the first year of life. So it was and is a rare disease among children.

    In Australia they looked for it in children, but according to this study, didn’t find it: Burgess MA, McIntosh EDG Hep B in urban Australian schoolchildren – No evidence of horizontal transmission between high-risk and low-risk groups. Med J Aust 5 Sept 1993; 159: 315 = 319.

    Like

  230. Ken
    May 13, 2013 at 9:34 am

    Chris,
    I looked it up, and I will admit that you are partially right. I said that hep-B was usually more serious in children than in adults, but I found that liver disease and death from it in children is a little more common than I had thought. 90% of babies born to an infected mother catch it themselves, may be asymptomatic for years, but 25% of them get liver cancer or liver failure eventually. Children who get it between one and five years of age have a 35% chance of a chronic infection, those older than five a 6-10% chance of developing hep B as a chronic disease. At this time about 30 cases a year are reported in babies in the first year: one quarter would be seven or eight babies a year going on to eventually die of it. I support testing pregnant women for hep B and advising them to vax the baby at birth if they are positive for the disease. I do not advocate vaxing all newborns with a dangerous vax in order to save seven or eight of them.

    Like

  231. May 13, 2013 at 9:43 am

    @Ken – how about providing some kind of proof that the HepB vaccine is actually “dangerous?”

    Like

  232. Chris
    May 13, 2013 at 10:30 am

    Ken:

    I said that hep-B

    When? And with what name? Why the sock puppets?

    “I do not advocate vaxing all newborns with a dangerous vax in order to save seven or eight of them.”

    So what? Why should we care what you think? You obviously have no training in science, medicine, etc, and you cannot even decide on a username.

    Like

  233. Chris
    May 13, 2013 at 10:31 am

    Also, this article is about school exemptions. The vaccine is required for school entry, usually starting in kindergarten. You can wait until the child is five years old, or get the exemption. Though if you do wait until age five, perhaps you should get them tested for hepatitis b just in case the child was inadvertently infected by a grown up with sloppy kisses, another child through the ways noted in the pdf I posted or by a dentist like the one in Oklahoma who did not follow standard public health procedures.

    Like

  234. Narad
    May 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    So what? Why should we care what you think? You obviously have no training in science, medicine, etc, and you cannot even decide on a username.

    It is also a perseverating liar. Stick a fork in it.

    Like

  235. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 10:13 am

    Another missing comment? This site is unfair.

    Like

  236. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Thanks to all telling the facts to the matter. The vaccine inserts are telling enough without all the other proof.

    Like

  237. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 10:16 am

    The other team can only say “citation repeatedly and accuse people making points of being sock puppets.

    Like

  238. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 10:22 am

    It’s been made clear here what the truth is and soon the whole world will know the facts. Oh and I mainly wanted to point out that the pro vax side was beaten down pretty bad as anyone who watched could tell.

    Like

  239. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Kudos to you all. Keep fighting the good fight. It’s waking the masses and saving the children from fate too many have been meeting with.

    Funny how no one replied to Serina’s post but instead targeted AVW.

    Like

  240. May 19, 2013 at 10:27 am

    @Robert – perhaps because Serena’s post was filled with baseless arguments with no evidence to support her viewpoint…..

    Like

  241. May 19, 2013 at 10:30 am

    @Robert – I’d also love to hear from you why robust discussions of “both” sides of the issue are discouraged & actively censored from anti-vaccine sites like AoA?

    Like

  242. May 19, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    I am a tad tired of folks who are allegedly on the same side, for instance – those of us who are awake to the bullshit mistake turned cash-cow confidence trick known as vaccinantion (COWIFICATION if translated from the French term of derision originally coined for it by a real scientist) – wasting their energy arguing over petty detail. We need to UNITE or we will be CRUSHED. period.

    Like

  243. May 19, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    OH, and it is only the BS that is censored from AoA because we are already clear and do not need trollism.

    Like

  244. Lawrence
    May 19, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    @Toby – and you call us “close-minded.”

    We examine all the evidence and are open to new research and ideas.

    Thanks for admitting your not interested in new information.

    Like

  245. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    Mr. Dawson, do tell us why it is cheaper to not give each child two MMR doses versus treating the one out of ten cases of measles in the hospital. Before measles vaccination almost every child had measles before age fifteen. Provide verifiable documentation like Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    Though perhaps you can try this little test on how to read a table. Go to page 30 I31 on pdf) of this document, and tell me what is the number to the left of the word “Vaccines” and what it means.

    Like

  246. Robert
    May 19, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    I’d like to point out here how Lawrence twisted what Toby said. These tell tell tactics are getting old and so obvious. Case is closed as Toby said and no time for arguing the facts to this matter because truth has been ignored for too long. Children’s well being and very lives are at stake.

    Like

  247. Lawrence
    May 19, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @robert – how exactly did I misconstrue what was said? Seems abundantly clear that Toby agrees with AoA’s policy of censorsing any evidence or discussion that questions the party line…..as opposed to the open discussion permitted here.

    Like

  248. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Robert, do you think AoA removing banning the comments from Todd W. is a good thing and why? He originally called his website “silencedbyageofautism”to (from his site) “provide a place for people to leave comments that have been censored at the Age of Autism blog.”

    Why is AoA afraid of open debate?

    Like

  249. Chris
    May 19, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    Bad editing, Chris, bad editing! It should be: Do you think AoA removing comments and banning people is a good thing, and why?

    Like

  1. July 9, 2013 at 3:37 pm

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