Home > Expert Insights, Get Involved, Parent Perspective, Policy, Preventable Diseases > Vaccine Refusal and the Politics of School Vaccination Exemptions

Vaccine Refusal and the Politics of School Vaccination Exemptions

schoolbuildingAcross the U.S., individual state policies determine which immunizations a child needs in order to be permitted to attend school.  And each state also has different ways in which parents can obtain exemptions from these requirements.  However, as vaccine exemption rates climb, so do outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases which are threatening the health of our children.  Some states are trying to respond by making an effort to legislate their way toward better public health.   However, both vaccine supporters and critics maintain different interpretations of “informed consent“.

On the one hand, public health departments are supporting legislation in states such as West Virginia, Oregon, and Vermont that seek to add requirements to an all-too-easy exemption process.  Prior to opting out of vaccines for their children, they want parents to be adequately informed of the risks of these decisions.  From the public health standpoint, if a parent wants to opt-out of vaccinating their child, the process shouldn’t be any easier than what parents are expected to do to adhere to the vaccine requirement.  Therefore, by requiring parents to discuss vaccines with a health care provider, to learn about the risks of not vaccinating, new state legislation is seeking to provide better parental education and information.  It would only be expected that this would be welcomed by those who question the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

However, a small but vocal minority of anti-vaccine advocates would like to have legislators believe that these new laws are taking away their “rights” and actually interfering with their perception of informed consent.   So they have circled the wagons and are writing letters, calling their legislators and demanding that their choice to refuse vaccination is not only protected, but remains unquestioned.  However, if they don’t support vaccine conversations with qualified medical personnel, how can they claim that they are supportive of informed consent?  The truth of the matter is that they don’t want their misguided decisions questioned.  They would rather remain confident in their decisions by focusing on the minimal risks of vaccinations and ignoring the overwhelmingly proven benefits.

The fact is that public health departments have both science and statistics on their side.  For example, children whose parents have exempted them from the measles vaccine are more than 35 times more likely to contract measles compared to vaccinated children.  And the exemption data across the country reveals that the easier it is for parents to opt out of required vaccinations, the more likely it is that the vaccination rates will drop.  For instance, a 2006 study found that states with loose exemption policies had approximately 50% more cases of whooping cough (pertussis) compared to states with stricter policies

The only concern that non-vaccinators seem to focus on are which exemptions will remain available – medical, religious and/or philosophical.  But to be honest, even that may not matter much.  It’s a common occurrence for parents to admit to filing religious exemptions in states that don’t allow for philosophical or personal belief exemptions.  Despite the fact that there are few, if any religions (besides perhaps Christian Science) that have come out clearly in opposition to immunizations, parents are often advised to claim a religious exemption so that their choice to not vaccinate will not be questioned.

For instance, in the state of Oregon, a bill which is currently moving through the State legislature is seeking to add administrative requirements to the non-medical exemptions process.  Unfortunately, Oregon currently has the highest rate of non-medical exemptions at 5.8% and in some schools the rate was as high as 76%, all of which were classified as religious exemptions because personal belief exemptions are not permitted.  But the reality is that non-vaccinating parents are using the religious vaccine exemptions inappropriately.  Therefore, a new bill (SB 132) is being considered that will not eliminate religious exemptions, but will require parents to either (1) submit a form that has been co-signed by a medical practitioner that documents receipt of information about the risks and benefits of immunization or (2) submit a certificate that verifies completion of a vaccine educational module on the internet. Again, the law seeks to ensure that a little extra effort and education is required before being allowed to refrain from vaccinating thereby putting children and communities at risk of preventable diseases.  However, because non-vaccinating parents are successfully misusing the current religious exemptions, they are also strongly opposed to any law that would jeopardize the ease in which they can currently work the system.

And in West Virginia, a state that currently only allows for valid medical exemptions, the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), a well-organized and cleverly named anti-vaccine organization, has been trying to advance their own agenda by seeking amendments to HB2831.  The proposed changes to the bill would strip the state’s health department of their ability to add new vaccines to those required for school and instead place these decisions in the hands of a legislative health committee.  But here’s the real kicker. In a bold move, NVIC has somehow managed to be added into the bill, requiring that at least “three consumers” be appointed to a special committee by  none other than the State Director of NVIC.  The bill reads: 

  “A minimum of three consumers should be appointed by the State Director for the National Vaccine Information Center in addition to the consumers appointed by the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Resources. The state epidemiologist shall serve as an advisor to the committee. Members of the advisory committee shall serve two-year terms.” 

 It is astonishing to know that a known anti-vaccine organization could be granted just as much power to appoint people to a health advisory committee as the state’s very own Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Resources.  Meanwhile the state epidemiologist, a medical professional with critical immunization related expertise, will only serve in the capacity of an advisor. 

The irony in all of this is that the NVIC plan may very well backfire in other states.  For instance, in Vermont there are two bills currently being considered by the state legislature.  Those bills (numbers H.114 and H.138) deal specifically with pertussis immunization.  However, since the state is so concerned about the dangers of pertussis outbreaks and the negative health impact pertussis has had on children, the proposed bills would suspend both philosophical and religious exemptions if the immunization rate at a school for a particular vaccine falls below a 90 percent threshold.   Personally I believe this is brilliant because the issue really isn’t of allowing exemptions as much as it tends to be parents abusing the exemptions.  What will the defenders of “informed consent” do now?  If they continue to advertise the ease in which a parent can get an exemption, they may find that the exemptions are withheld.   And since many parents who choose to forgo immunization admit that they do not feel a personal concern or responsibility to others who can’t be vaccinated, it becomes every man, woman and child for themselves.  

As the battles continue across the country, it’s encouraging to see that immunization rates are already improving in the states that have enacted legislation which requires additional education requirements before claiming personal belief exemptions.  For example, a recent law which passed in Washington State requires parents to meet with health care providers to understand the risks of foregoing immunizations before getting a vaccine waiver.  Since July 2011, when the law went into effect, the number of children receiving all of their immunizations has been rising. In the 2011-12 school year, only 4.5% of kindergarteners received a vaccine exemption compared with 6% the previous school year.  While this is still a high percentage of exemptions in comparison to most other states, it’s encouraging to see that the new legislation is working to address public health concerns, particularly in a state which was the epicenter of one of the largest measles and pertussis outbreaks in recent U.S. history. 

Now is the time for vaccine advocates to speak out in favor of strong vaccination policies and reasonable requirements for vaccine exemptions.  Are we going to just sit back and allow non-vaccinating, exemption pushing individuals to represent our diverse parental views on school vaccine policies?  I certainly hope not.  Be sure to sign up to receive Every Child By Two action alerts about legislation of this nature and learn what you can do to support strong immunization policies in your state.  Don’t wait, because if you do, it may just be too late.

  1. Peter
    April 30, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    Dear Chritine,
    There are so many things wrong with your take on us “non-vaccinating” people that it is laughable. Where do you get your information? You make every effort to make people who decide not to vaccinate look like idiots or lazy people who don’t care about anything. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

    “Therefore, by requiring parents to discuss vaccines with a health care provider, to learn about the risks of not vaccinating, new state legislation is seeking to provide better parental education and information. It would only be expected that this would be welcomed by those who question the safety and efficacy of vaccines.”

    It would only be expected that it would be welcomed by those who question the safety and efficacy of vaccines? Why is that? You just said yourself the parents will be learning about the RISKS of NOT vaccinating. Not the risks of vaccinating.

    “The truth of the matter is that they don’t want their misguided decisions questioned. They would rather remain confident in their decisions by focusing on the minimal risks of vaccinations and ignoring the overwhelmingly proven benefits.”

    Yes, we want to remain confident in our misguided decisions and are afraid to find out the truth so that we don’t have to change our minds. Completely ridiculous!

    “It’s a common occurrence for parents to admit to filing religious exemptions in states that don’t allow for philosophical or personal belief exemptions. Despite the fact that there few, if any religions (besides perhaps Christian Science) that have come out clearly in opposition to immunizations, parents are often advised to claim a religious exemption so that their choice to not vaccinate will not be questioned.”

    Again, what else do you expect? You take away the right to choose, so the parents are left to choose the religious exemption because there is no other choice.

    “And since many parents who choose to forgo immunization admit that they do not feel a personal concern or responsibility to others who can’t be vaccinated, than it becomes every man, woman and child for themselves.

    Really? They should put other people above their own families?

    Again, the condescending attitude towards people who choose not to vaccinate is completely astounding. Most people who choose not to vaccinate have very good reasons for it. You pitch it as stupid people who could care less about anything.
    You are the perfect example of why I don’t listen to people like you. When you are ready to have a straight-up conversation about vaccines and treat every view with some respect, then I will start listening.

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  2. jw
    April 30, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    When vaccines no longer have mercury in them aluminum and other heavy metals in them then maybe I will start vaccinating my children. When they prove the pertussis shot does not cause kidney failure in our children as other countries have banned this for that reason kidney failure and does not use this as their rates of kidney failure is so small while ours here in the United States is common look for your self the kidney failure Nyphrotic Syndrome. When our government can tell us why Autism is so high then I might start vaccinating my children. Do you know fluoride has never been approved through the FDA as it hasn’t been proven not to help. Lok for yourself. My argument here is fluoride has heavy metals in it mercury aluminum and many more things. that our vaccinations have in them and there the government will say those ingredients can cause problems to the nervous system and attack the brain cells. However we allow all these metals and mercury in our vaccinations. Of course vaccinations are a 5.3 billion dollar industry. Our government is to greedy to tell the truth as other countries protect their children not the United States. And if people vaccinate their children then why are they worried about those children who are not vaccinated they can’t cause harm to your child. If they do guess what vaccinations will then be proven not to work. Seriously put mercury in my child heavy metals go ahead I don’
    t want to.

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  3. Chris
    April 30, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    jw:

    When vaccines no longer have mercury in them aluminum and other heavy metals in them then maybe I will start vaccinating my children.

    Which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimorosal? Please do not mention influenza, because at least four are influenza free.

    And on what planet is aluminum a “heavy” metal? Is it one where there are no airplanes?

    For the rest: citation needed.

    Patrick, just give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed study that shows that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Plus, give the verifiable scientific citation that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. If is all about the risks of vaccination versus the diseases, I am sure you have those PubMed citations available. Just make sure the authors are qualified, and have not had their license to practice medicine revoked or have non-applicable educations like law, business, computer science, geology, etc.

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  4. Lara Lohne
    April 30, 2013 at 9:38 pm

    jw, a couple of things:

    1: there has never been mercury in vaccinations. There was, at one time in some common childhood vaccines, a preservative called thimerosal that contained ethymercurial atoms, but were so miniscule and left the body so quickly that it was shown, and has been known, to be a non-issue. However due to the concerns expressed by some parents upon learning that this preservative contained ehtylmercury, this preservative was removed from all routine childhood vaccines. Even in the flu vaccine, there are four (that is half) that are thimerosal free.

    2: aluminum salts are an adjuvant, meaning that they boost or allow the vaccine to work properly to create an immune response. If these aluminum salts were not there, we may as well be injecting saline. Without the immune response, immunity cannot be achieved. There is also a HUGE difference between aluminum salts used in vaccines and raw mineral aluminum which we all consume in significantly greater quantities daily because it’s the most common mineral on the planet.

    3: punctuation is your friend. I am not attempting to attack you, so please don’t take it as such, but I really had a very hard time reading your comment because there is no punctuation and I couldn’t tell when one sentence ends and the next begins.

    4: you need to provide citations for the claims you are making. Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to show that any of the multiple claims you’ve made (kidney failure, autism having ANYTHING to do with vaccines, fluoride(?) etc.) have any merit, then you might have a worthy argument. Considering most people who make the same claims here can’t ever provide those papers, I’m not going to hold my breath that you will either. It really is hard to find hard, scientific data to support your claims when all the data to date actually shows the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

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  5. jw
    April 30, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Do you know 23 vaccines today has replicated aborted fetal tissue in them such as MMR Rubella and more from the FDA approved certified cell banks. Calf serum, kidney cells from monkeys, antibiotics cardiac toxins and human diploid cells. And most of mercury. None of this is what i want injected into my children. Children who develop polio whooping cough and so on is due to their own vaccinations. Vaccinated versus unvaccinated boys un vaccinated are more than 2x likely to develop autism and 3x likely to develop ADHD. As people start to not vaccinate as it has risen we will then see the truth of what vaccinations do to our children.

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  6. jw
    April 30, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    I wrote that wrong up there vaccinated boys is more likely to develop ADD and ADHD then un vaccinated boys.

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  7. jw
    April 30, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    Mercury is in the flu shot. Yes I know my punctuation is not good here. I have too many things going on. I have 7 children none have ADD or ADHD. And i’m not vaccinating until some one comes up with why Autism ADD and ADHD is so high. 1 in every 33 boys have autism. Yes as this could be caused from fluoride who knows. I don’t like what they inject in my children. Mercury is also in fluoride metal fillings and just not safe for children surly not infants.

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  8. Chris
    April 30, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    jw, one thing at a time, at the moment it is thimerosal. Tell us which vaccine on the American pediatric is only available with thimerosal.

    Now, do please provide proper citations for the rest of your claims. This is not a place where argument from blatant assertion is accepted.

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  9. Chris
    April 30, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    By the way, there is not one flu shot approved for children, there are eight. And half do not have thimerosal. Did you not read what I wrote? Take at look at the following table:
    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

    Now count the influenza shots, seven are injected and one is a flu-mist. Look at the third column, notice how four have the word “Free.” Do you see why argument by blatant assertion is not allowable. You have to prove what you say, and you said something that was wrong.

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  10. jw
    April 30, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    We will see the truth behind this when they have to tell us the difference between vaccinated children and un vaccinated how many have autism add and adhd versus one another. I’m sure un vaccinated children are more likely to have less chances of damages then vaccinated children. Mine will stay un vaccinated until some one can prove what is causing this. And i’m not believing it is just then environment. And why is other counties not suffering like we are here as they do due away with certain shots that is still here in The United States.

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  11. novalox
    April 30, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    @jw

    [citation needed]

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  12. Chris
    April 30, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    jw, why don’t you tell me which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal? As you can see from that FDA table, half of the influenza vaccines do not have thimerosal. Your error in assuming there was only one “flu shot” is exactly why parents who refuse vaccines for their children need to have their exemptions signed by a medical care practitioner who has explained the risks, and answered their questions.

    Then you can tell us which actual citations (that means a real scientific study, it helps us to find it when it is indexed in PubMed) that show unvaccinated children are better off than vaccinated children. Because it would be interesting to see how they did better getting measles, mumps and pertussis than getting the DTaP and MMR vaccines.

    Though I guess you can answer that question by asking the over eighty people who ended up in the hospital in Wales due to measles, and the folks in North Carolina who are now in quarantine due to measles.

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  13. May 1, 2013 at 5:31 am

    @Chris – jw is spouting off the standard anti-vaccine canards that have been refuted time and time again with actual science and evidence.

    Todd’s website is a great place to start…..http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

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  14. May 1, 2013 at 5:34 am

    @Peter – “Public Schools” are just that, public. There are legitimate concerns and issues with the lack of vaccine coverage in schools systems, where outbreaks cause mass disruption, harm children, and are a public health risk.

    Of course, if you’d like to home school your kids or send them to private schools with lax vaccine policies (seems like those Waldorf Schools would be perfect, but hey, they seem to close quite often due to VPD outbreaks), that is your right. You don’t have the right to put public health in jeopardy because of BS objections to vaccines…..if you don’t like it, don’t send your kids to public school.

    That’s your choice.

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  15. Ben
    May 1, 2013 at 9:12 am

    I agree with Peter and J.W. Parents, if required to see a doctor before getting an exemption to the shot requirement, should also be required to see a vaccine awareness advocate, who can inform them of the risks as well as the benefits of vaccines. Children who receive the shots should rest easy that they will not get the targeted disease. While vaccine failure is common, the risk of a vaccinated child both getting the disease he was vaccinated for and suffering death or permanent disability as a result, is so tiny as to be negligible, while the risk of forcing all children to get the shots would cause a huge percentage of them to suffer death or permanent disability. Parents would have to weigh the risks/benefits of the vaccines and also of having their child in school, where he is exposed to many germs every day. I have never heard or read anyone saying that he or she chose to keep their child at home for fear that he might get strep throat, for which there is no vaccine available. Just last night they said on the news that there was a lot of strep throat going around in the schools. Panic in the streets! What else are we worried about? Pertussis? The pertussis vaccine is both dangerous and often completely ineffective, while the disease is not dangerous in anyone but the very youngest newborns. It is an entirely rational decision to refuse it. Most of the 32,000 Americans diagnosed with pertussis last year had been appropriately vaccinated for it, but got it anyway. 31,988 of them made a full recovery, while 12 newborns died. It is unknown how many died from the vaccine or developed asthma or allergies from it, nor how many died from their asthma or allergies, because no one responsible has any incentive to keep a count of these victims.

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  16. Sara
    May 1, 2013 at 9:27 am

    Lara,
    Is it really you who stated there is and was no mercury in vaccines, or was it an impostor trying to make you look uninformed? Ethylmercury made up 50% of the killed virus vaccines for many decades. The Canadian government commissioned a study several years ago to study its safety, and the study found that no one knew what happened to the mercury once it was injected, and that it had never been more than “presumed” safe. It has never been verified that everyone excretes it quickly: some appear to, but others store the mercury in their brains. Many autistic children have been tested, and found to have very high stored mercury levels. Gay Tate said that her younger two children, born after 1990 and both severely autistic, tested very high for mercury, while her oldest son, born before the vaccine and autism epidemics began in 1990, was normal and did not test high for mercury. She said that the difference in vaccines received, most of them mercury-containing in the case of her younger two children, was the only environmental difference among the three children. The symptoms of autism are identical to those of mercury poisoning. Most injected flu vaccines still contain mercury, and most people are unaware that they need to specify a mercury-free vaccine from a single dose vial. No attempt has been made to compensate those who have suffered irreparable, permanent damage from the vaccines received at any time. Vaccine Court is a farce, but it must be so as not to bankrupt the country compensating all the millions of people damaged by vaccines.

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  17. May 1, 2013 at 9:34 am

    @Ben & Sara – how about some actual evidence to support those “beliefs?”

    In fact, all of them are patently false & have been proven so over and over again. Take your anti-vax lies somewhere else.

    Real information can be found at the CDC Website & also:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Like

  18. Joyce
    May 1, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Public schools are public for a reason. Those who fear vaccines should not be required to get them. Those who want them can get them, and should feel protected. Since the pertussis vaccine is ineffective in a large percentage of the vaccinated, forcing anyone who doesn’t want it to get it is really a way to compel adherence to a dogma, rather than a public health measure, and one that does not address the damage caused in many who get it. Maybe if we were talking about the Black Plague, you might have a leg to stand on. Since we aren’t, those parents who fear severe vaccine reactions more than the diseases have a right to refuse the vaccines. Many studies have indicated links between the vaccines and the severe reactions (autism, allergies, asthma, bowel disease, etc.), and the fact that you choose to discount them does not mean that everyone else is compelled to discount them as well. Nor does it mean that anyone can be justifiably compelled to incur the risk and vaccinate their children.

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  19. May 1, 2013 at 9:57 am

    @Joyce – public schools are, as you pointed out, public. Therefore, steps taken to protect the “public” health are justified in the face of the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are safe and effective….if you don’t like it, don’t send your kids to Public Schools.

    That is a choice.

    Like

  20. May 1, 2013 at 10:03 am

    @Joyce – parents who are afraid of vaccine reactions don’t understand the Science or safety profiles of vaccines….do the research & stop listening to the lies.

    Like

  21. May 1, 2013 at 10:05 am

    @Ben – I believe there are plenty of individuals, including Lara here that will take offense to your calling “pertussis” a mild disease. It isn’t called the 100 Day Cough for nothing & people I’ve known have cracked ribs from coughing so hard, not to mention the increased risk of asthma and bronchitis that occurs from catching pertussis.

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  22. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Sara:

    Is it really you who stated there is and was no mercury in vaccines, or was it an impostor trying to make you look uninformed?

    Please tell me which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Again, like I told jw, do not say “the flu shot” because half of the eight approved for children do not have vaccines. I should remind you that “half” is not the same as “most.” I posted the FDA table of thimerosal, now tell me which on that list one which is only available with thimerosal.

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  23. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Ben/jw/Sara/Joyce, please give the actual verifiable scientific evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the latter is still circulating), and how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles (has put one out of twelve in the hospital of the thousand in Wales with it), mumps and rubella. The citations need to be indexed on PubMed and written by qualified researches, so no lawyers, business venture capitalists, journalists, computer scientists, non-science college professors, geologists or doctors who have had their medical licenses removed.

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  24. Heather
    May 1, 2013 at 10:35 am

    Lawrence,
    I, like many thousands of others, think the evidence of vaccine damage is very compelling. It really doesn’t matter whether or not you share my belief. Since I believe vaccines are very dangerous, based on a lot of scientific as well as thousands of “anecdotal” accounts of vaccine damage, it would be irresponsible of me to allow my chlid to get something I firmly believe stands a good chance of damaging him. Sure, you can attempt to counter my evidence with your evidence, but you can’t explain away vaccine damage or make me believe the same thing you do. You have your belief system, and I have mine. But you do not have the right to make me hurt my child.

    Like

  25. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 10:37 am

    Heather, what is that evidence? Provide the citations I have requested.

    Like

  26. Heather
    May 1, 2013 at 10:48 am

    Chris,
    Look back through the past almost four years of Shot of Prevention comments (as I have), and you will find there hundreds of citations of scientific articles proving the dangers of the vaccines you mention, and all the others besides. Did you miss them the first time round? Of course pertussis is still circulating, but the disease is very rarely dangerous for anyone over the age of four months, and the vaccine is both dangerous and often completely useless in preventing pertussis. Being in the hospital for a week or two with measles (which is usually an exaggerated response, and rarely one necessary for the recovery of the patient), is better than gettinig autism or bowel disease from the MMR. I saw the other day that there is still doubt that Gareth Williams had or died of measles. He was in the hospital for four days shortly before his death, but did not appear to have measles at that time. He was released because they thought he was nearly well from whatever he had. HIs mother took him to the doctor shortly before his dying alone in his apartment, but apparently the doctor at that time still did not diagnose measles. His fairly severe asthma (and why do you think he had asthma? it’s usually from the pertussis vaccine) probably played a role in his tragic death, and measles may or may not have been a part of his illness. Most people who get measles at any age are sick for over a week and then get well, as most of them are once again doing in Wales. See Karenza Cassidy’s, of Swansea, Wales, on her eyewitness account of her son regressing into autism after the MMR.

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  27. May 1, 2013 at 10:48 am

    @Heather – there is a huge difference between “beliefs” and actual, verified scientific evidence.

    You have bought into the scare-mongering of the anti-vax fringe….

    Like

  28. May 1, 2013 at 10:49 am

    @Heather – once again, post up real, verified evidence – otherwise, you’re lying.

    Like

  29. Joyce
    May 1, 2013 at 10:52 am

    Chris,
    Go back and read all the comments posted at Shot of Prevention, which you do by going to the archives and selecting the month. Start at October 2009, it’s easy for the first year or two, when there weren’t that many comments, but they pick up at that point. Come back after you have read them all, and ask again if you weren’t able to find any studies cited which provide the information you request. Many extremely well-researched and citated comments have been posted here.

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  30. May 1, 2013 at 10:55 am

    @Joyce / Heather sockpuppets – what, you mean all of that junk science that has been refuted, rebuffed and found to be fraudulent?

    Like

  31. Joyce
    May 1, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Lawrence,
    Opinion, not fact. You choose to disregard my factual information, and it is my right to disregard your “factual” information. I have talked to many people who say they saw their children regress into autism etc. shortly after a vaccine with their own eyes. You say it is coincidence, I say that it is not. You may not force people to sweep under the carpet what they see for themselves, however much it may benefit you to have them do so, when the price is their children’s life and future.

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  32. Joyce
    May 1, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Yes, a lot of your junk science is fraudulent. Next question.

    Like

  33. Joyce
    May 1, 2013 at 10:59 am

    Am I lying if I say the world is round? I believe that it is, but I cannot cite any study proving that it is. Am I lying when I say that I believe what I have seen and heard and read of vaccine damage with my own eyes and ears? No, I am not, since I believe this evidence with all my mind and heart.

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  34. May 1, 2013 at 11:00 am

    @Joyce – specifically, I’ll point you to:

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/04/30/a-few-points-about-steve-walkers-measlesautism-study/

    Also, if your “stories” were so compelling and easy to document, why haven’t they?

    And back on topic, if you don’t agree with the public health safety measures for Public Schools – don’t send your kids….you have plenty of other options / choices.

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  35. May 1, 2013 at 11:02 am

    @Joyce – your beliefs are mistaken, because the research has been done…..people believed the Earth was the center of the Universe until Science proved them wrong.

    Scientists and researchers have heard the same “stories” you have – and they did the research (over the past couple of decades) and they have found that your “beliefs” are incorrect.

    Keep believing what you want, but it does not change the fact that the evidence is not in your favor.

    Like

  36. May 1, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Back to the topic at hand – I agree that Public Schools should tighten restrictions on those that file fraudulent vaccine exemptions & using the guidelines to maintain “herd immunity” and blocking all exemptions (except for valid medical ones) is smart public health policy & is designed to protect children, teachers, staff and visitors…..it is easy to see, in places like the Waldorf Schools, how quickly diseases can spread in vulnerable populations & how damaging they are, not just individuals, but on the learning environment itself (missing weeks of schools is extremely difficult, not just on the students, but also on the parents, most of whom would be required to stay home for at least three weeks, tending to their sick children).

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  37. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 11:58 am

    Joyce/Heather/Sara/etc, answer my questions. Your misrepresentations are the reasons why all exemptions should be signed by a qualified medical care practitioner explaining they have corrected the misrepresentations to the parents. You should not be allowed to disregard factual information.
    .

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  38. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    By the way, I have read almost all the comments on this website. I have seen the same errors repeated, even after they have been corrected several times. I have yet to have you, or any of the sock puppets answer my questions about the actual risks. or which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. And yes, still, we must correct some basic arithmetic: “half” is not the same as “most.”

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  39. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Joyce:

    Yes, a lot of your junk science is fraudulent. Next question.

    Prove it. You can start by answering my questions. Including the one where I provided the FDA table of pediatric vaccines and thimerosal content.

    Like

  40. Beth
    May 1, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Chris, can you tell me what percentage of recipients of the flu vaccine take a mercury-containing version? I would assume that many do, since they are still making and selling so much of it. Fluzone is approved for children older than six months, and the large 10-dose vial has 25 mcg mercury per dose. FluLaval makes only mercury-containing flu vaccine in large 10-dose vials. The multidose vial of Fluvirin, for age four and older, contains 25 mcg of mercury per dose. The multidose vial of Afluria flu vaccine is for six months of age and older, and contains 24.5 mcg per dose from the multidose bottle.

    So you tell me. Are all the parents who permit their children to receive one of these flu vaccines from the multidose, mercury-containing vial aware of how much mercury their children are having injected into their bodies

    Like

  41. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    Beth/Sara/Joyce, answer my questions first. And many states only allow children to be given vaccines without thimerosal.

    Can you also tell me how much more dangerous the flu vaccine is compared to the influenza that has killed over a hundred children this year: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/#S3 ?

    Like

  42. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Lawrence,
    I find the scientifc studies and parent accounts of vaccine damage convincing enough that I just don’t want to take the chance, and that is my right. You dump the studies and the parent accounts straight into the garbage. Your right, I don’t care. Just don’t mess with my rights.

    Like

  43. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Also, in my state, the influenza vaccine is not required for public school attendance. So it really is not part of the discussion. But DTaP, varicella, HepB, IPV and the MMR are required for kindergarten. So do give us the actual scientific evidence those vaccines are more dangerous that the diseases.

    Like

  44. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Tom, why did you change your username again? Using sock puppets is pathetic.

    Like

  45. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Also, Tom/Sam/Beth/Joyce/etc, you are not required to send your child to public school You can always home school or start your own private school with your like minded friends who ignore public health policies.

    Like

  46. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    And which are the states that permit children to get vaccines with thimerosal, and why? Even if ten children a year die from the flu and five from the flu vaccine, maybe it was my nephew who died of the vaccine, and all my kids have had the flu many times, and I’m just not afraid of it. I have the right to decide not to let him or any of us get the flu vaccine. I don’t have to accept your evidence as conclusive or the deciding factors in my decisions.

    Like

  47. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Tom: “I find the scientifc studies…”

    Which you, and your friends have failed to provide.

    Like

  48. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Chris,
    That’s right, except that all states except two let parents send their kids to school with a philosophical or religious exemption to vaccines, because there are hundreds of thousands of parents who think that it’s important enough that we insist on this right not being taken from us. We the people have spoken, and you’re having a hard time taking that right from us, hard though you try.

    Like

  49. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    I have no idea, Tom/Joyce/Beth, which states permit vaccines with thimerosal for children. I do now my state does not allow children to get vaccines with thimerosal.

    Tom/Sara/Sam/Beth/etc, go you your state’s Department of Health website to learn about your own state’s regulations.

    Like

  50. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Tom, yes, there are exemptions. The only policy that is being debated is whether those exemptions need to be signed by someone qualified to explain the risks to parents.

    What do you have against educating parents on the real science?

    Like

  51. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Give it up, Chris. Anything I put you’re going to say you don’t accept it, so why bother? Go back to other articles with hundreds of studies and articles cited on Shot of Prevention. Read Neil Miller. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein. Vaccine Epidemic. Thousands of studies on vaccine dangers cited, from journals like the NEJM and Lancet.

    Like

  52. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Do the doctors have to sign the form after reciting their spiel? Do the parents then get their form signed after coming up with the time and money necessary to play their game? Or do the doctors get to refuse to sign if the parents don’t yield to their bullying?

    Like

  53. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    I don’t have anything against parents being informed as to the real science, and heartily recommend they read the books mentioned above, that contain the real science.

    Like

  54. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    Chris,
    And you are certainly doing your best to force all children to take their chances at playing vaccine roulette. We’ll see who wins. If you win, it sure won’t be the kids.

    Like

  55. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    I know enough to find out about thimerosal in vaccines, and you are too. Are you saying that those of us who are aware are covered, so who cares about the parents who are not aware they should first inform themselves before setting foot in the doctor’s office?

    Like

  56. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Lawrence,
    I believe our freedoms of religion, speech, and of the press, guaranteed by the Constitution, imply the freedom to think for ourselves as well. If my religious or philosophical beliefs prohibit me from vaccinating myself or my child, you do not have the right to force me. The Supreme Court found two years ago that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe.” By what right do you think you can force me to do something that is unavoidably unsafe for my family? And you better smile when you say it.

    Like

  57. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Tom, which vaccine required for school attendance in your state is only available with thimerosal?

    Also, Tom/Beth/Sam/etc, when you start your own school for those who don’t like public health policies make sure you get someone who actually knows how to teach American government and basic arithmetic.

    Like

  58. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @ Chris #43,
    Read the books I suggested in #51 and then come back. And also read When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hepatitis B Vaccine & Autism, by Judy Converse, to learn about the obscene danger and lack of need for that vaccine. If I have read them, been convinced by their evidence, and talked to people whose children have been damaged by the vaccines you mention, then that’s enough, I don’t have to get them.

    Like

  59. Tom
    May 1, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    @ Lawrence #14,
    Since 48 states permit religious or philosophical exemptions to vaccines, and the will of the people is such that I doubt they’ll be able to ever take them away, it is not our choice to be prohibited from public schools without vaccination, as you put it, but your choice to send your vaccinated children there. Are you not afraid of vaccine failure, and their catching a disease they’ve been vaccinated against? Or maybe a disease there’s no vaccine against? Maybe your choice should be a bubble school to provide absolute protection as long as they’re in it? Many of us feel it’s better for our children to be exposed to germs, including those of the formerly common childhood diseases, to give them strong and competent immune systems.

    Like

  60. May 1, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    @Tom – last time I checked, no one is forcing you to send your kids to public school….if you do, you have to play by the rules set by the school boards & school administrators in the interest of public health.

    If you don’t like it – I hear the Waldorf schools are extremely lax in their vaccine policies (highlighted by the almost continuous outbreak of infectious diseases there & students missing class for weeks on end).

    Like

  61. May 1, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    Judy Converse has her own page on Whale.to – that tells me all I need to know about her “credentials” and credibility.

    Like

  62. Tracy
    May 1, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Lawrence,
    Pertussis is a very exhausting sickness. I know, I and my children have had it. But most cases of pertussis are not as bad as what you described. We did not break any ribs at any time during our experience of it. It was just long bouts of coughing, eight or ten coughs on one breath, but then hours between each fit of coughing. Everyone should read about it, there’s lots of articles on both sides online and in books, and decide for themselves whether or not to get the shot (shots, as you’ll have to keep getting boosters of Tdap every three years, since immunity doesn’t last that long, and it often doesn’t work at all). I’m glad we had it, we probably have permanent immunity now, and even if we don’t, I’d rather go through the same thing again than be damaged by the vaccine. My body, my choice.

    Like

  63. May 1, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    @Tom – what “specific” scientific studies do you find so “compelling?” Should be an easy answer…..

    Like

  64. May 1, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @Tracy – citations please.

    And I would think the good possibility of never getting pertussis (by being vaccinated) is a much better idea than catching the disease and potentially suffering the very real serious side-effects that can occur.

    There can be serious reactions to any vaccine – but research and studies have shown that they occur in very rare cases (in as few as 1 in 1 million cases) – please stop repeating the anti-vax lies.

    Like

  65. May 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @Tracy – yes, your body, your choice – but, if you send your kids to Public Schools, funded by Public Tax Dollars, in the interest of Public Health, vaccinations should be required & only medical exemptions should be honored.

    Don’t like it – home school or send your kids to private schools, again, I’d recommend the Waldorf Schools – although they tend to shut down quite frequently due to infectious disease outbreaks.

    Like

  66. May 1, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    @Tom – you do realize that historical exposure to all of those “childhood diseases” you keep talking about is one big reason why we used to have a very high child mortality rate? Fat lot of good all that “disease exposure” did for those children:

    The mortality rate for children aged 1-4 years declined from 1,418.8 deaths
    per 100,000 population in 1907 to 28.6 in 2007

    Like

  67. May 1, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    @Tom – you mean this “Dr. Eisenstein?”

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/22/why-not-just-castrate-them-part-3-the-ei/

    Who advocates for the use of Lupron to control / “cure” autistic children?

    Like

  68. Ken
    May 1, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    Tom, you are making less and less sense. Take this little gem:

    “Are you not afraid of vaccine failure, and their catching a disease they’ve been vaccinated against?”

    Yes, on rare occasions a vaccine can fail to work, and the child can still be susceptible to the target disease. That’s why it’s important for all kids to get their shots. See “herd immunity.” Your point about vaccine failure undercuts your own baseless arguments against vaccines.

    Like

  69. May 1, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    @Ben, I suffered through pertussis at 17 and it left me permanently damaged. Pertussis is by no means a mild disease. You make it sound like 12 newborns dying is no big deal. Try to put yourself in the shoes of those who have lost their newborns to a disease that they couldn’t be vaccinated for, because someone around them had pertussis because they didn’t keep up with their boosters. I can hear your response already, that it’s the parent’s fault fr not quarantining their child. Well, if you know anything about what a quarantine entails, you would know, in this day and age, it is not possible to do and a family to continue to live normal lives. The data regarding serious reactions to DTaP are known and are so miniscule as to make it impossible to actually trace directly to the vaccine. Your facts regarding disease and vaccinations are backward.

    Like

  70. Narad
    May 1, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    the proposed bills would suspend both philosophical and religious exemptions if the immunization rate at a school for a particular vaccine falls below a 90 percent threshold

    I’m having a bit of difficulty parsing the text of the bill. If it means “we won’t issue any more exemptions” after the 90% floor is broken, there would seem to be some equal-protection issues. If it means that extant exemptions are nullified when this threshold is reached, it’s perhaps safer but still has an arbitrary feel to it.

    Like

  71. Narad
    May 1, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    shots, as you’ll have to keep getting boosters of Tdap every three years, since immunity doesn’t last that long, and it often doesn’t work at all

    I see that somebody has a rather loose grasp of the facts.

    Like

  72. Narad
    May 1, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    all states except two let parents send their kids to school with a philosophical or religious exemption to vaccines, because there are hundreds of thousands of parents who think that it’s important enough that we insist on this right not being taken from us

    No, it’s because they don’t want to bother with application of the Seeger test for every crank that scuttles out of the woodwork. Eliminating “philosophical” exemptions (a whopping 17 states) and treating religious ones as does New York State is a substantial undertaking.

    Like

  73. Narad
    May 1, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    And on what planet is aluminum a “heavy” metal?

    The term is essentially meaningless (in astro, basically everything is a “metal”).

    Like

  74. Poison Control
    May 1, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Tasty snacks in the vaccs….delicious!
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

    Like

  75. May 1, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    oh, scary – I mean, it isn’t like the human body generates more formaldehyde in a day through normal metabolic processes than is contained in all vaccines on the pediatric schedule……fact, not fiction people.

    Like

  76. gailcrawford@accesstoledo.com
    May 1, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    A NOTE FROM OUR ADMINISTRATOR: This comment was deemed inappropriate and removed from view because of vulgar language and juvenile behavior that included an inappropriate personal attack on another commenter.

    Like

  77. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    @gailcrawford

    Thank you for that example of anti-vax thinking in action.

    Stay classy, gail, stay classy.

    Like

  78. May 1, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    @GC – wow, that’s a clear violation of the posting rules on this blog….the owner has been notified.

    Like

  79. May 1, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    Andrew Wakefield was never proven to be wrong. There are myriad books written objectively which tell about side effects of vaccinations, and the package inserts themselves are clearly stating there are side effects. If there were no side effects, the books about the side effects would be all over the news and the drug companies would be suing for slander.

    Anyone interested should read “A Shot In The Dark,” by Barbara Fisher, “Vaccinations, A Thoughtful Parents Guide,” “Unraveling the Mystery of Autism and PPD,” by Karen Serroussi, “How to Raise a Healthy Child In Spite of Your Dr.”-that one was written by a Dr. I read these books years ago and forget some of the authors. I am sure there are many more, by now, and if they were not full of facts then you can be sure drug companies would try to discredit them.

    Andrew Wakefield was only criticized on the size of his study, not the validity of his information.

    Parents do not mind being warned of the “dangers of not vaccinating,” but we want to be told the dangers of vaccinating, and we want to make the decision. We know are children and know that some children are more sensitive than others (the ones we are supposed to be protecting, right?)

    We know drugs come out CONSTANTLY that are later proven unsafe, and the testing new drugs is inadequate. The real tests happen on the people who take them. Many people will stick with tried and true medications over new ones which admit in their information that companies “don’t know” what long term effects will be. It’s amazing how people can throw kids in jail for messing up their own bodies with drugs, yet we are supposed to okay doctors doing the same exact thing, often with more harm and less benefit?

    Most doctors are not up on all the latest information. They are too busy and overbooked to sit around researching how many vaccines were pulled. As a parent, you must be aware of what you are putting into your child’s blood. My doctor told me there was no thimerisol in a vaccine but when I read the package insert (you will have to ask for it) the doctor was misinformed. He THOUGHT there was no thimerasol in the vaccines because there had been talk of having it removed, but it had never been removed and the doctor was either giving out old shots or bad info.

    Like

  80. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    @hannahh

    [citation needed]

    Like

  81. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    HannahH,please give the actual verifiable scientific evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the latter is still circulating), and how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles (has put one out of twelve in the hospital of the thousand in Wales with it), mumps and rubella. The citations need to be indexed on PubMed and written by qualified researches, so no lawyers, business venture capitalists, journalists, computer scientists, non-science college professors, geologists or doctors who have had their medical licenses removed.

    Like

  82. Skiler
    May 1, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    Lawrence 65,
    I don’t like it, but fortunately, the police state you promote has not yet arrived, and I don’t have to get me or my children any of the vaccines if I fear the vaccines more than the diseases (and I do).
    Lara, put yourself in the shoes of the many who have died or been permanently disabled by vaccines, the ones the Supreme Court was talking about when it said that vaccines were unavoidably unsafe. Even Dr. Ann Schuchat said the unvaccinated could not be blamed for last year’s epidemic of pertussis, since the vast majority of those who got it and transmitted it had been appropriately vaccinated. So we’re back to everyone deciding for himself whether or not to take the risk of this or any other vaccine.
    Lawrence,
    You think the good possibility of protection from pertussis if you get the vaccine is worth the risk of the vaccine. Great, get it, again, I don’t care. It’s nothing more than a good possibility of protection since the vaccine failure rate for the acellular pertussis vaccine is so high. I’ve already had pertussis, coughed for over two months. But even so, I’d rather get it again every year than risk permanent injury or death from the vaccine. My choice.
    Lawrence 60,
    Like you can discredit Eisenstein, head of an extremely popular Chicago clinic for over forty years, by saying you don’t think Lupron will work to treat autistic children. I have no idea whether it would or not, but all you have to do is look at the hundreds of studies described and cited and individual cases described in his book to be impressed by the facts he presents. I don’t care if you are or not, but recommend the book to those interested in learning about the dangers of vaccines. Converse was invited to give testimony on her son’s near fatal reaction to the hep-B vaccine at birth and his subsequent autism, because the congressional committee who invited her found her experience so convincing. As I do too. Read the book. Smearing people you don’t know and haven’t read just degrades what you say.
    Google it. Some sources say aluminum is a heavy metal, some don’t, but it doesn’t matter, we can just sum it up by saying aluminum is dangerous when it is injected into your body or even when you drink it in the water or rub it in your skin as an antiperspirant.
    So Narad, if everything is a metal and nothing is dangerous, do you want to have arsenic injected into your body, or plutonium? Just asking. And formaldehyde introduced into the body by injection (or aluminum, mercury, neomycin, etc.) is much more dangerous than that produced by natural processes and confined to appropriate channels, or ingested by eating it or breathing it. Of course you can be poisoned that way too, but there are filtering mechanisms which attenuate the danger of what you eat or breathe.
    Ken, you’re making less and less sense. You haven’t gathered that I don’t think pertussis, measles, chickenpox, etc., should be vaccinated against at all? Herd immunity after having had the natural disease would be much more reliable.
    Chris, I don’t need to start my own school, because the American people are not going to allow our shot exemptions to be taken away. Remember Vermont and California?

    Like

  83. May 1, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    Jeez – another sockpuppet? Another clear violation of the site rules, again….

    Natural Herd Immunity has one fatal flaw – guess what, we keep adding susceptible individuals to the population (i.e. babies). We can eliminate diseases by making sure there are no natural reservoirs left & minimal number of people not immunized against the disease.

    Why do you have a problem with disease elimination?

    Like

  84. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Skiler, so exactly how do you propose to avoid the most common metal element on this planet’s crust? And if it is so heavy, why do they like using it instead of steel for aircraft?

    And, we will not google anything. If you make a claim you and your friends need to provide the actual scientific evidence to support them. Which none of you have done.

    Actually, I have great fear of the actual science and basic math you would teach at your school that will be philosophically opposed to public heath.

    Like

  85. Kristina
    May 1, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Chris please site your “scientific evidence” you claim supports your vaccine at all cost stance for the Dtap and MMR. Be sure to cite ONLY evidence for that actually meets scientific scrutiny for a real study. Be sure not to include pharma paid for studies which do not include all of the data and info on the actual protocol for the study. With your sitation list please add also a good scientific study which indicates that polysorbate 80 is completely harmless when directly shot into your blood stream as well.

    Like

  86. May 1, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    @Kristina –

    #1 – Science Fail, vaccines are not “shot directly into the bloodstream.”

    #2 – Strawman Argument Fail, no one here is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe or 100% effective (or that vaccine reactions happen, because they do – only that serious reactions are extremely rare & much less common then the very real and serious side effects from disease). So, don’t pull that Nirvana or Perfect World Fallacy either.

    #3 – It is up to you to list citations that show that vaccines are “unsafe” or less safe than the diseases they prevent.

    Three strikes and you’re out Kristina.

    Like

  87. May 1, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    @Kristina – one needs to understand the process of peer review before one can claim “bias” – you don’t seem to be one of those individuals.

    Like

  88. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    Kristina, I asked first.

    But here is an example: Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

    Tell me what organizations in that paper are pharmaceuticals, and support your answer with real references.

    Then there are:
    Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.

    There are several that use the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink. This uses the computerized medical data from several large health maintenance organizations like Kaiser-Permenente. Health insurance have a habit of trying to pay as little as possible to any pharmaceutical company.

    Like

  89. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Okay, Kristina, now you come up with the scientific citations. Be sure to tell us exactly how the MMR puts as many people in the hospital as the outbreak in Wales has done.

    Like

  90. May 1, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    @Kristina –

    How about you start reading here:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

    Like

  91. Kristina
    May 1, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    Thank you Lawrence, but please give some citations not funded in part by big Pharma. Also many of these lack what would be considered good scientific rigor and are based on self report rates and cohort type studies. These are not solid scientific studies. Moreover, it wont take you long to do some searches to find out who funded these studies. Try again.

    Like

  92. May 1, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    @Kristina – see, that’s not how this works…..you need to be specific, otherwise, you’ve got nothing.

    Like

  93. May 1, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    @Kristina – the anti-vax movement wouldn’t know “Good Science” if it came up and bit them, hence their embrace of the Wakefield Fraud.

    Like

  94. May 1, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    @Kristina – just be honest, you’ll reject any study, out of hand, regardless of the reason, just because you don’t agree with the outcome, won’t you?

    Two decades of research show no link between vaccines & autism and several decades of research, population studies, safety evaluations, etc show that vaccines are both safe and effective.

    Just because you don’t like that, doesn’t mean you can change the facts…..

    Like

  95. May 1, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Back to the topic at hand – vaccinations are good policy & keep kids and teachers safe in the learning environment.

    Like

  96. Kristina
    May 1, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    Lawerence, not going to argue with you anymore… but I am highly educated and a scientist..I was truly curious as to what you thought were good scientific studies. Hmmm. guess it is not just the “anti-vaxers” who don’t know a scientific study or the criteria for one. The fact is, and sadly so, there are not many good scientific studies on either side. With reasons for that fact. I am not anti-vax. But I am for sound scientific studies and like to retain the right to determine what is safe for me and my family. BTW… in my daughter’s class room this year, they were all sick. Sick sick sick. My daughter…. the ONLY healthy one all year long. Robust immune system and hoping to keep it that way. You may also want to do some good research on what makes up the anti-vax and limited vax community. I think you will find that compared to the opposite, to other cohort groups. And Chris, I will not even begin to provide an answer to what the insurance companies stand to gain from forced multiple vaccines. Glad to hear though that your families were safe and suffer no ill consequences from vaccines. Good for you.

    Like

  97. May 1, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    @Kristina – I have serious doubts about your “qualifications” since legitimate Scientists tend to frown on “conspiracy-ladened terms like Big Pharma.” They are also able to write in complete and coherent sentences.

    And since you are unable to cite any specific examples of what is wrong with the mountains of studies (case cohorts, population studies, retrospective studies, safety research, etc) I call shenanigans.

    Like

  98. May 1, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    @Kristina – I will also point out that to “argue” one needs to provide a basis for their argument – I have done so, you have not….that’s not an argument or even a discussion, it is you just being silly.

    Like

  99. Kristina
    May 1, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Kristina – I have serious doubts about your “qualifications” since legitimate Scientists tend to frown on “conspiracy-ladened terms like Big Pharma.” They are also able to write in complete and coherent sentences.
    And since you are unable to cite any specific examples of what is wrong with the mountains of studies (case cohorts, population studies, retrospective studies, safety research, etc) I call shenanigans.

    My primary reason for not listing a ton of quotes/citations and etc. is due to not wanting to waste my time. As for what is wrong with some of these cohort etc.. studies… well there are several classes you could take and many citations for good readings if you lack them on why these studies are a bit lackluster to be kind. Also … given I have many a friend and family who work for “Big Pharma” and call it that themselves….

    Like

  100. May 1, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    @Kristina – without evidence, your posts are a waste of time.

    Your ability to dismiss, without any specifics, hundreds of studies, performed by a variety of institutions, organizations and governmental groups, without providing any specifics whatsoever, does speak volumes about exactly where you stand.

    Like

  101. May 1, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    @Kristina – another reason to doubt your qualifications, you seem to be unaware that vaccines are “not” injected directly into the bloodstream.

    Like

  102. endangered dissenter
    May 1, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    Whatever happened to personal freedom? In a free society the notion of any legislation forcing parents to inject their children with chemicals would not even be debated. Goes to show where this country is headed.

    Like

  103. Venna
    May 1, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    Kristina, thank you for your comments. I couldn’t agree withj you more!

    Like

  104. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    Kristina:

    Thank you Lawrence, but please give some citations not funded in part by big Pharma.

    If you bothered looking at them, you would see that about none of them were funded by big pharma. Only tortured logic would conclude that public health entities like the CDC, NIH, and NHS are pharma funded.

    Or that health insurance would not try to save money. Perhaps they should require a surcharge to those who choose to not prevent diseases, just like smokers pay more for auto and home insurance.

    “Endangerd dissenter”, you are more than welcome to educate your children in places other than public schools. You are also more than welcome to leave this country and live where there is more “personal freedom.” Perhaps Somalia?

    Like

  105. May 1, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    @ED – yes, once again, it is your choice. But Public Schools must enforce good public health policies for the benefit of everyone….if you don’t like it, home school or send your kids to private schools.

    And can we please knock it off with the sockpuppets – it got old a long time ago.

    Like

  106. endangered dissenter
    May 1, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    @Chris: thanks for your gracious permission. I guess “personal freedom” gets quotes from you because it never really existed? Or it’s a joke haha. 😦 Sad.

    Like

  107. May 1, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    @ED – feel free to drive drunk, without a seatbelt, license or insurance – because limiting your choice for all of that infringes on your “personal freedom.”

    Like

  108. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    It depends on how you define “personal freedom.” If you wish to live in a society that does not care what you do, you need to accept the ramifications of that decision. If you want to ignore public health, then go full bore and move where there is no such thing as public health.

    There is difference between personal freedom and living in civilized society. What you are advocating is ignoring both public health and societal rules. Though you still have the right to not partake in medical care, but just like I do not allow smokers to light up in my house, the public schools should not allow children who are more likely to become ill and pass that illness on to others into their buildings.

    So, do please start your own private school that ignores public health.

    Like

  109. May 1, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    @Chris – I’m reminded of a certain libertarian troll from RI…..

    Like

  110. endangered dissenter
    May 1, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    @Chris – I don’t recall advocating anything here, actually. Just pointed out the absurdity of this debate in our supposedly free society…

    Like

  111. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Indeed. Having lived outside of this country in places where “personal freedom” was very much a case of how much power a person held, I always find it an interesting stance. Of course, the guy who held the most power was known to have complete runs of newspapers confiscated because he did not like what they wrote. Oh, and you must remember to never drink the water.

    I have a slightly different perspective on the whole issue.

    Like

  112. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    Endangered dissenter, you do live in a free society. If you do not wish to vaccinated your children you are free to educate them yourself or in certain private schools.

    I only pointed out that if you wanted true “personal freedom” and not abide by public health regulations there are other places that might suit you better.

    Like

  113. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    @kristina

    You brought the assertion, it’s up to you to provide the evidence.

    Like

  114. Jack 52
    May 1, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    Ignoring public health?

    Sounds a lot like the supporters of this site who ignore or down play all of the vaccine injuries, including autism. Irony at its best!

    Like

  115. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    @jack 52

    [citation needed]

    Like

  116. May 1, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    Someone is attempting to nym steal again, I believe.

    Like

  117. Addi
    May 1, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    HannahH, Kristina, ED, and Jack52,

    Hail felllows, well met! Great comments! Lara/Novalox, you weren’t Venna this time? I had a hard time placing that congratulatory comment in context.

    No one has a right to make someone do something that might kill or disable his child. Period. Those who really really want to get even a slight chance of protection from the VPDs are certainly free to take all the vaccines they want, and dismiss the side effects as coincidental, but you can’t force others to share your opinion, nor can you force us to kill our children. And you’ve already seen us go to the wall to defend our right to maintain a heathy family. Google Vermont (or do you remember your campaign last year?), google California. Vaccinating is comparable to driving without a seatbelt: or drinking while driving: you may get away with it a certain number of times (or maybe not), but sooner or later you’re going to be nailed with paralysis, dementia, or autoimmune disease, with no one but yourselves to blame. Just don’t hijack my car and drag me along with you on your joyride!

    Like

  118. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:17 pm

    @addi

    [citation needed].

    Also, putting up false accusations isn’t prudent.

    Like

  119. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 10:20 pm

    Jack 52:

    Sounds a lot like the supporters of this site who ignore or down play all of the vaccine injuries, including autism.

    And Addi:

    Those who really really want to get even a slight chance of protection from the VPDs are certainly free to take all the vaccines they want, and dismiss the side effects as coincidental, but you can’t force others to share your opinion, nor can you force us to kill our children.

    Dear new sock puppets: please give the actual verifiable scientific evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the latter is still circulating), and how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles (has put one out of twelve in the hospital of the thousand in Wales with it), mumps and rubella. The citations need to be indexed on PubMed and written by qualified researches, so no lawyers, business venture capitalists, journalists, computer scientists, non-science college professors, geologists or doctors who have had their medical licenses removed.

    Like

  120. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Chris – Evidence?

    Let’s see, my child had whooping cough and turned out just fine. Later on, got a bunch of vaccines together to catch up, and they sent him right into autism.

    As you can see I believe the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases and you will NEVER change my mind. I don’t need any more evidence then my own family’s health.

    Like

  121. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:35 pm

    @Sock Puppet- Is your family the only one on planet Earth? Your refusal to acknowledge anyone other than yourself says much about your selfishness and arrogance.

    Like

  122. Venna
    May 1, 2013 at 10:35 pm

    Jack 52

    They are in complete denial of any vaccine injuries. They will tell you how rare they are. I believe most of them are paid to comment here. There is no other reasonable explanation for the way they treat people.

    Like

  123. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    @venna

    [citation needed]

    Also, using the pharma shill gambit is a sure sign that you have no argument, since you have to resort to accusations instead of posting evidence.

    Like

  124. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    GrayFalcon – My family is the one I am responsible for. You think I am the only one with a vaccine injury story? You are the selfish and arrogant one. You try living with autism and then come talk to me.

    Like

  125. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    @Sock Puppet- I am autistic. Apologize. Now.

    Like

  126. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:43 pm

    @sp

    So you admit that you don’t care for your fellow man?

    And don’t think that you are the only one that has to care for individuals with autism.

    Like

  127. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    Gray Falcon – Please don’t lie, you make yourself look really bad!

    Like

  128. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    @sp

    So you won’t apologize?

    Like

  129. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    @Sock Puppet. Do not make such accusations. I am not lying.

    Like

  130. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    novalox – No, you admit that you don’t care for children or fellow man.

    And as a matter of fact, because of vaccines, many have to care for those with autism.

    Like

  131. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    @Sock Puppet- Again, where is your evidence that vaccines are the cause? Nearly every violent crime was committed within 24 hours of the perpetrator eating bread, does that mean we should ban bread?

    Oh, and the pharmaceutical companies stand to gain much more if people don’t vaccinate. Cures are so much more expensive than prevention.

    Like

  132. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    I have nothing to apologize for. You apologize for treating people the way you do novalox.

    No, I do not believe that Gray Falcon has autism.

    Like

  133. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    @Sock Puppet- You would believe wrong, then. You are not omniscient, do not presume to know things. Tell me, are you this judgmental in person?

    Like

  134. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    1) Yes, ban bread Gay Falcon.
    2) Vaccines cause so many health issues that the pharma companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

    Like

  135. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    @sp

    Making u[p stuff now?

    Thanks for that admission, and also thanks for your admission that I care much more for my fellow man than you ever will.

    Also, judging by your statements, it seems that you really don’t care much for children at all, since you would rather let them suffer and die from VPDs.

    But please, keep stating your lies. I like it when an anti-vaxxer like you have to resort to lies and ad hominems just to attempt to insult me. Shows the insecurities and utter weakness of their position.

    Like

  136. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    Why should I believe you Gray Falcon?? You don’t believe others here. Why should anybody believe you? One good reason?

    Like

  137. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    @sp

    You do know that the pharma shill gambit isn’t an argument point, right?

    Like

  138. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    @Sock Puppet-
    1) You do know, of course, nobody will ever take you seriously for saying that.
    2) Again, provide evidence. It would have to be very strong evidence, one of Roald Dahl’s children died from measles.

    Like

  139. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    novalox – what a child you are. My Dad can beat up yours!

    Like

  140. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    @sp

    Also, since you have not brought up any evidence to support your assertions, as well as resorting to insults and ad hominems against other posters, why should we believe you?

    Like

  141. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    Sock Puppet :
    Why should I believe you Gray Falcon?? You don’t believe others here. Why should anybody believe you? One good reason?

    I didn’t say I didn’t believe you, I said you were mistaken. You may be surprised to hear this, but you are not infallible.

    Like

  142. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    @sp

    Also, thanks for admitting that you have to resort to infantile insults to make your points.

    Please, keep on attempting to insult me and others. Show the world how you really think of others.

    Like

  143. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    novalox – I ignore children like you. Waste of time playing your games and listenting to your insults and childish behavior.

    Like

  144. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    Good bye novalox

    Like

  145. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    @sp

    Thanks for admitting that you have resorted to infantile behaviors and admitting that you are here just to troll.

    Again, [citation needed] for your assertions. You’ve had plenty of chances to do so, yet you have not. Why?

    Like

  146. Sock Puppet
    May 1, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    Gray Falcon – now you presume to know it all? I am mistaken? Don’t act you know anything about what happened to my boy.

    Like

  147. novalox
    May 1, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    @sp

    Still admitting that you are lying?

    Also, thanks for your admission that you have no point, and conceding the argument.

    Like

  148. Gray Falcon
    May 1, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    @Sock Puppet. I don’t know what happen. That’s why I’m asking for clear-cut evidence, not just your suspicions. If I knew what had happened, I wouldn’t be asking you questions.

    Like

  149. Chris
    May 1, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Sock Puppet:

    As you can see I believe the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases and you will NEVER change my mind.

    There is difference between beliefs and fact. You need to learn that, and to please give the actual verifiable scientific evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the latter is still circulating), and how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles (has put one out of twelve in the hospital of the thousand in Wales with it), mumps and rubella. The citations need to be indexed on PubMed and written by qualified researches, so no lawyers, business venture capitalists, journalists, computer scientists, non-science college professors, geologists or doctors who have had their medical licenses removed.

    Or admit to being a Poe.

    Like

  150. Lara Lohne
    May 2, 2013 at 12:26 am

    @Addi,

    I’m not novalox, he isn’t me. Venna is potentially, I feel, nym-jacking, which might explain why you are confused by what that individual is saying. I have only ever used my real name here.

    Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, nor will the legislation that this post is about force anyone to do anything. It will require, in order to get a vaccine exemption for a child to attend public schools, speaking to a qualified (that being the operative word) health care professional regarding the risks of not vaccinating.

    You could still get the exemption you wanted, and your children would be able to attend public school, but when there is an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease, expect your children to be removed from public school until the outbreak is contained or over, since you are choosing to not have them vaccinated. Every choice has its consequences, both positive and negative.

    Like

  151. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 12:44 am

    I answered your question Chris. I guess we’re coming full circle now?

    Chris – Evidence?

    Let’s see, my child had whooping cough and turned out just fine. Later on, got a bunch of vaccines together to catch up, and they sent him right into autism.

    As you can see I believe the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases and you will NEVER change my mind. I don’t need any more evidence then my own family’s health.

    Like

  152. Renee
    May 2, 2013 at 1:35 am

    Look how many kids die of sids if you ask the parents they say there baby just had there shots. But the Gov. not going to tell us that they will just say thats just a coincidence that they died right after the shots. My little girl almost died from shots she was put in the hospital everytime she got them and they still kept telling me to get them.

    Like

  153. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 1:41 am

    @sp

    So you refuse to look at the evidence at all, just believing your own POV.

    Like someone said before, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts, and the scientific facts do not support your POV.

    So again, [citation needed], because the science says that you are incorrect, and that you are putting your own as well as other children at risk.

    @renee

    You do know that correlation does not equal causation, right?

    Like

  154. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 1:45 am

    Sock Puppet:

    I answered your question Chris. I guess we’re coming full circle now?

    Really? I would have noticed that. How about giving me the article, date, time and comment number.

    Like

  155. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 1:49 am

    @Chris

    Considering that sp has proven himself/herself/itself to be a known liar, I’d say you will never get a straight answer.

    Like

  156. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Renee, citations are needed, you should understand that real verifiable scientific evidence is required when you claim vaccines cause more deaths than the disease.

    Like

  157. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 1:56 am

    novalox, I am having trouble getting a question posted to Sock Puppet. About three I have posted have disappeared (all due to the spam issue due to sock puppets!). Why should we care what he and his friends say? It is often untrue.

    Like

  158. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 2:02 am

    @Chris

    Guess I like to see if an anti-vaxxer can answer a question honestly.

    Like

  159. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 2:18 am

    novalox, has it ever happened?

    Like

  160. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 2:49 am

    @Chris

    Well, let’s see what happens.

    I highly doubt it, given the history of the anti-vax trolls, but let’s see what happens.

    Like

  161. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 7:26 am

    Part of SP’s problem is that she earnestly believes that her personal observations are sufficient evidence. Unfortunately for her, one cannot extrapolate data for the entire human race based on one child. Finding out that instead of receiving immediate acceptance, she got questioned repeated by people who use words like “extrapolate” was definitely a shock, I’m sure. Until she learns that just because something makes sense to her, that doesn’t make it true, she’s not going to be able to hold a discussion on scientific matters.

    Like

  162. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 8:36 am

    Thank you for the “shout outs” to VT. We are very proud of what we accomplished last year and are proof that if you call and write and take on your reps they will be forced to listen to you. It takes a lot of time and energy to keep on top of this changing legislation but we must be diligent. The reps have pharma sales reps sitiing right here next to them in the state houses, much too cozy for my liking.

    As I have said to you before, Chris and Lawrence, your approach is awful, (but I will say the same to those who do not vaccinate when things breakdown to name calling) you will never change someone’s mind when it come to the health of their children. The science has been corrupted, period. Unless the FDA, the pharmaceutical industry, and R&D industry is overhauled regarding vaccines, and all monetary conflicts of interest are removed, those who do not trust the data never will. You can citation yourself to death and it won’t matter.

    Like

  163. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 8:42 am

    @My3Sons- Do you have any evidence that the science is corrupted? Pray that you never live in a world where an accusation is enough to bring punishment.

    Like

  164. May 2, 2013 at 8:53 am

    @My3Sons – being misinformed & misled is different than willful ignorance……unfortunately, the most vocal opponents of vaccines are the ones that are the most willfully ignorant & the ones the cause the most damage.

    For the majority of parents who decide against vaccination – they are being mislead by bad information & those that have become consumed by conspiracy theories.

    At the end of the day, the research and body of knowledge of the safety of vaccines should speak for itself & it is a shame that ordinary people like me (and the others here) have to continually correct the lies told by the anti-vaccine activists.

    When you can’t win by presenting good evidence, resort to conspiracies – which is what you guys do, all the time.

    Like

  165. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 8:58 am

    Hmmm… Gray Falcon, can you clarify your comment about living in a world where an accusation is enough to bring punishment? And pray? You believe in God?

    Evidence? I have not collected and saved everything I have read in the corrupted science department, I apologize. But considering I am only concerned about educating myself, I really don’t need to save everything I read. I remember what is important to me.

    Here is something I just pulled up.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101115210944.

    Just skimmed the article, but you get the idea. It is things like this that have led me down the path of skepticism. And because of scientists and studies that have been proven to be corrupted, the cynic in me must now question them all. That is just the way I am. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame one me!

    Like

  166. May 2, 2013 at 9:10 am

    @My3Sons – then please point out the published Science that you believe shows that there are issues with the current crop of vaccines?

    You’d think, with all of the various international regulatory bodies, research institutions, independent researchers, etc, that you’d be able to post up very specific peer-reviewed information…..of have you bought into the whole “international conspiracy?”

    Like

  167. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 9:12 am

    Good morning Lawrence. We just disagree. I believe the government, the pharmaceutical industry, medical publications, and scientists; all entities which have been proven to lie and cover up for their own benefit; have the burden of proof on them. They have lost all credibility with me due to their track record. Just like in a court of law, if the witness is caught in a lie, they are done, no more credibility and their testimony is stricken from the record.
    Well that’s how I view it. Unless their are some real independent studies done, sans pharma dollars and influence of former pharma CEOs, on the current complete vaccine schedule, vaccinated vs. Non vaccinated, studies with a genuine placebo (not an adjuvant,) I will continue to question their studies. It’s really that simple.

    Like

  168. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 9:23 am

    So basically My3Sons, you want your accusation alone to stand as proof, and will reject any contradictory evidence? Pray you never face justice like that.

    Like

  169. May 2, 2013 at 9:23 am

    @My3Sons – Just admit that you’ve already made up your mind & no amount of Science will convince you, because you aren’t getting the results you want.

    So, what exactly would you say, if a double-blind, placebo-based vaccine study was conducted on several thousand newborns – and during the course of such a study, there were a number of children that came down with VPDs (because they received the placebo) and either died or suffered permanent disability….and then when the results were announced, it was found that neurological outcomes were affected by vaccine status?

    What would you say to the families?

    Also, if, during that same study, there were multiple outbreaks of VPDs caused by the unknown vaccination status of study participants (who, remember, will all be children under the age of 5) causing even more people to be infected, hospitalized and potentially dying, what do you say to the families?

    Are you prepared to accept responsibility for the very real consequences of such a study? Are you willing to have medical professionals waive the very ethical foundation of research to prove a “point” that up to now has no credible scientific backing?

    What are you prepared to sacrifice or force others to sacrifice My3Sons? Are you willing to get pregnant and be first in line to volunteer your infant for a study that is, in effect, replicating the Tuskegee Study?

    Like

  170. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 9:23 am

    Lawrence, I believe people are inherently good, that is until money and power come into the equation. There are centuries worth of historical data that proves this, and it is compounded 10 fold in the US. So many want fame, recognition, power, and or money, and unfortunately those factors can make people do the most horrendous things, that people like us (yes, I mean you too Lawrence) would never even dream of, let alone carry out. But unfortunately all we have to do is open a newspaper to see corruption in government, greed in corporate America, falsified data in science, all in the name of money and the need for power.
    I wish it wasn’t this way. I wish I could trust what the government and these corporations say, but it is because of their indiscretions in the past (and present) that I and many others can’t. I am not responsible for this, they are. And people like you should be taking out your wrath on them, for every time they lie, they make you loose credibility as well. So take your argument to the people you are trying to help, and ask them to start helping you by being honest, then maybe you can expect to make some headway.

    Like

  171. May 2, 2013 at 9:24 am

    I meant to say “NOT affected by vaccine status”

    Like

  172. May 2, 2013 at 9:25 am

    Mercury levels in HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) are as high as 28 times the levels found in vaccines or fish or amalgams. That’s 2,800% higher! Pubmed that one.Journal of Environmental Medicine. Biggest culprits are catsup and soda.

    Like

  173. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 9:25 am

    Gray Falcon… Why do you keep saying pray? Are you religious?

    Like

  174. May 2, 2013 at 9:26 am

    @My3Sons – fortunately, the anti-vax cranks are continuing to marginalize themselves….I would wager, over the next few years as more and more evidence is presented for other causes of autism & a continuing repudiation the claims of the number of serious reactions to vaccines, slowly, but surely, these groups will disappear from anything but the very most fringe of society.

    Like

  175. May 2, 2013 at 9:27 am

    @My3Sons – many of the researchers you tar & feather, have children of their own and vaccinate….are you claiming that they would purposely harm their own children in the quest to make a buck?

    Like

  176. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 9:28 am

    My3sons :
    Gray Falcon… Why do you keep saying pray? Are you religious?

    Yes. Now tell me, would you wish to face the same justice you demand?

    Like

  177. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 9:35 am

    Lawrence, I have heard many scientists, doctors, and nurses who don’t vaccinate. Enough to make me believe they are privy to something compelling.

    Gray Falcon. I do not believe in God. But since you do… You question God’s ability to make a perfect immune system? You might want to start praying, from what I have read about the big guy upstairs, he does not want you to question or doubt him.

    Like

  178. May 2, 2013 at 9:40 am

    @My3Sons – no more “stories” – how about some evidence for a change.

    Luckily, people like you don’t make decisions about public health.

    Like

  179. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 9:46 am

    Lawrence, I don’t want to make decisions about public health, just myself and my family, and I want to do it with uncorrupted data. The pharmaceutical industry in frightening to me. They have paid billions in lawsuits for their deceptive practices, as I have said, it is not my fault they have lost credibility.

    I know you don’t like my style of communication Lawrence, but please I can hear your frustration, don’t dislike me for my beliefs.

    Like

  180. May 2, 2013 at 9:52 am

    @My3Sons – I don’t dislike you for you “beliefs.” It is just that your beliefs are wrong.

    I would recommend that you read Matt Tabibi’s book, “The Great Derangement.” It speaks about how individuals can get so divorced from the mainstream that they embrace fringe ideas and fringe movements as a means for feeling like they “matter” and have a purpose, because they know the “truth.”

    It is also why it is so hard, if not impossible to change individuals’ minds on these matters, because they are so caught up in knowing the “truth,” that any evidence to the contrary to their beliefs is a threat to their very being.

    Back to the topic at hand – if you don’t like the actions taken in Schools in the interest of the Public Health, then I would recommend that you exercise your educational choice and either home school your children or send them to private schools….your actions jeopardize others – and you should take responsibility for that.

    Like

  181. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 10:05 am

    My3sons, you have no idea how Christianity works, do you? I’m not doubting God’s ability, I’m trusting in the logical ability He gave us.

    Like

  182. Talía
    May 2, 2013 at 10:21 am

    Gray Falcon,
    The theory of medical exemptions permits a child considered highly likely to react badly to vaccines does not have to get them, regardless of the effect of this policy on the “herd.” Parents who rightly believe that the establishment is downplaying the frequency and severity of vaccine damage are increasingly refusing vaccines in order to protect their children’s health. In no other arena is it even suggested that parents are required to sacrifice their child’s life or health in order to possibly safeguard the health of someone else’s child.

    Like

  183. Talía
    May 2, 2013 at 10:23 am

    Lawrence,
    Or other options are to exercise our democratic right to persuade our elected representatives to institute legal policies which respect our rights as citizens of a democracy, who may not want to sacrifice our children for a misapprehended vaccine policy.

    Like

  184. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Lawrence, I believe your unwavering faith in government and the pharmaceutical industry is wrong due to the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times they have admitted to lying and falsifying data to further their agenda.

    I am not familiar with Matt. I may be interested in his book. What is his background? What does he do for a living? How did he afford to write this book? Did any of his data come from studies funded solely by the pharmaceutical industry? I would like to know these things so I can assess if I feel his information is without bias or corruption.

    You may be correct about those that would not be willing to change their mind even with the purest of data. I am not one of those.

    I have home schooled, due to my dislike of the public school system’s one size fits all approach, as well as (and I am sure I risk offending some) their insistence on having children with learning disabilities (I mean overwhelming, not just developmentally delayed) in the same classrooms as children without learning disabilities. I do feel that the publics school system will have to readdress their inclusion in the near future, since the autism epidemic will make the large number of ASD children entering public school overwhelming and require separation to eliminate disruption. But how do we address tax dollars paid by non vaccinating parents? Do they just forfeit their school tax dollars to the schools even though they can not utilize the public school, if the exemption should be eliminated? Slippery slope.

    Like

  185. Talía
    May 2, 2013 at 10:26 am

    Lawrence,
    Tony Blair rejected the MMR for his son Leo, but refused to comment on his decision in the public forum, saying essentially that it was no one’s business what they chose for their child (regardless of the fact that he was pushing the MMR for everyone else’s children).

    Like

  186. Talía
    May 2, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Gray Falcon #126
    Meaning? I have Asperger’s as well, and my son autism, both from vaccine reactions. Apologize for what? ASDs make life harder for everyone, and I wish that both I and my son had escaped this vaccine brain damage which has made our lives a struggle.

    Like

  187. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 10:31 am

    Gray… You are doubting God’s ability to make a strong immune system. You are saying that medical science is smarter than God. You are saying even though God made us, humans are better at providing us with immunological defense. You better start repenting. 😉

    Like

  188. May 2, 2013 at 10:34 am

    @Talia – when parents are making decisions based on bad information, then steps need to be taken to either educate them or require them to understand why what they are doing is bad.

    Legitimate medical exemptions are important & should not be cheapened by parents trying to take the cowards way out & make it more difficult on people that really need them.

    Like

  189. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 10:36 am

    My3sons:

    As I have said to you before, Chris and Lawrence, your approach is awful,

    So it is awful to actually ask for evidence of someone’s claims? That seems odd.

    Just like in a court of law, if the witness is caught in a lie, they are done, no more credibility and their testimony is stricken from the record.

    The only ones that I have seen lying have been Wakefield, the Geiers and others who would seek to make money by demonizing vaccines through misrepresenting the science.

    I posted at five PubMed indexed papers in Comment #89. Please explain what lies are contained in those five papers. The number of measles cases in Wales is now well over a thousand. Some of those “beliefs” based on Wakefield’s lies are causing great harm. This is why we need evidence.

    Like

  190. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 10:38 am

    My3sons:

    Gray… You are doubting God’s ability to make a strong immune system.

    Using someone else’s religion to prove your own beliefs is more awful than asking for scientific evidence.

    Like

  191. May 2, 2013 at 10:39 am

    @My3Sons – I feel pity for you, that you would color every single decision you make based on so-called “bias.”

    Matt Tabibi is a write for Rolling Stone Magazine – perhaps one of the least “mainstream” mainstream publications out there. His writing was not specific to any one belief (like vaccines, 9/11 truthers, Evangelicals, etc) but addressed the overall sense of disengagement with the mainstream beliefs & why.

    As to the use of tax dollars – well, people don’t support our foreign wars, but their taxes go towards funding the military anyway. Public Schools have every right to institute policies that protect the health and welfare of their students, faculty and staff – limit illegitimate vaccine exemptions is good policy, based on the decades of research.

    If you refuse to be educated, there is nothing more I can do for you. Other than to continue to be an activist for education, good health policies, and a refutation of the lies that the anti-vaccine groups are spreading.

    Like

  192. May 2, 2013 at 10:41 am

    @Talia – and when the genetic components of autism are finally isolated and we find out that vaccines aren’t responsible for anything other than good public health, what will you say at that point? Will you apologize?

    Like

  193. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 10:41 am

    I’d rather not turn this into a religious discussion, My3sons. But, if you insist, by your argument, one should claim Christians should not eat, lest they show doubt in the perfection of God. Seriously, you don’t even know basic theology.

    Like

  194. May 2, 2013 at 10:52 am

    @My3Sons – I wouldn’t recommend going there. The human body has many serious design flaws (don’t even get me started on our reproductive system) – so let’s keep myths out of it…..oh, which I guess means we get to avoid all of the anti-vaccine myths that have been debunked over and over and over again.

    Like

  195. Amber
    May 2, 2013 at 11:02 am

    The immune system, which God designed with great intricacy, has powers and mechanisms as yet undreamt of by mankind. Tamperiing with it by the use of vaccines is like the hubris shown by those attempting to construct the Tower of Babel in an attempt to rival God’s power. Just as that hubris was struck down by God then, so are the unfortunates who react to vaccines with severe and permanent disability or death the unwitting sacrifices to this new attempt to equal or better God’s wisdom in giving us an amazing immune system that works extremely well to protect us most of the time. Scientists still haven’t figured out how to neutralize poisons like aluminum, mercury, and formaldehyde before injecting them. Neomycin is used in many vaccines, although the package insert on neomycin says that it is only for topical application, and is dangerous when taken internally. Phenol red is used, although it has been implicated in causing hyperactivity and behavioral disorders. And no one has been able to figure out how to explain to the immune system that the hordes of highly antigenic particles,whether live or weakened pathogens, chemical ingredients, or foreign proteins from the culture media, are not really threats, but just a way that’s supposed to fool it into making antibodies. How to explain the concept of benevolent dishonesty to the immune system, to calm its inflammatory rage in reacting to the perceived threat suddenly appearing in the usually closed system of the bloodstream, and extending to usually intact systems such as the brain? A question for the ages, to find a means of communicating abstract ideas to the immune system, on a par with communicating with aliens, but of much more moment to our present moment in time. Do I want to set foot on this hubristic ground while the best minds ponder this conundrum? Hell, no!

    Like

  196. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 11:03 am

    I agree Lawrence, out with the myths. Topic if religion is over. 🙂

    Although maybe one day you will enlighten me with your views on the reproductive system. It would be interesting to hear your opinions on such a topic. I mean that sincerely.

    Like

  197. Amber
    May 2, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Lawrence and Chris,
    You use the term “educate” in preference to the more correct term “indoctrinate.” Those of us who have seen vaccine damage in ourselves or our children and have read widely about it recognize the difference, and so are unwilling to submit to this profit-driven propanda campaign. And it is our right to do so.

    Like

  198. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 11:08 am

    Thank you for that Amber. You seem better qualified than I to defend that theological position. 🙂

    Like

  199. May 2, 2013 at 11:13 am

    @Amber – care to explain, that when researchers who followed up on the parents’ stories of “vaccine damage” found no such thing? If it was so “evident” don’t you think it would be extremely easy to document and present?

    Why hasn’t it been? Why is it limited to “stories on the Internet?”

    The 9/11 truthers have done a better job presenting their evidence than any of the anti-vax nonsense (yet both have no actual reality behind them).

    Like

  200. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 11:14 am

    Amber, there is more formaldehyde in the human body than any vaccine, and aluminum is an extremely common element. All of the “toxins” you list are in too low a dosage to effect a human being.

    As to your theological point, do you have the hubris to put food in God’s perfect digestive system? Surely you have the faith to believe it will work on its own without your intervention.

    Like

  201. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 11:16 am

    Amber, why do you oppose education? You are using a type of language reminiscent of a George Orwell novel. From the Nirvana Fallacy to the dismissal of evidence to double speak propaganda (“seen ourselves”).

    Like

  202. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 11:20 am

    Profit driven, Amber? So is it really cheaper to treat 10% of children for measles rather than prevent it with two MMR doses? Before vaccines almost all children got measles before they turned fifteen, there were an average of four hundred deaths each year in the USA with many more times that permanently disabled.

    Like

  203. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 11:20 am

    Ooops. Treat 10% in hospital for measles. See: J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Like

  204. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 11:33 am

    400 deaths per year in a country of 300,000,000 is hardly a huge problem.

    Drowning deaths are much more frequent, should we ban people from swimming because their chances of dying are far greater than dying from a vaccine preventable disease?

    Maybe we should, look how much more likely you are to drown than to get a VPD.

    From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 347 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2
    About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.2 For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.1
    More than 50% of drowning victims treated in emergency departments (EDs) require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with a hospitalization rate of about 6% for all unintentional injuries).1,2  These nonfatal drowning injuries can cause severe brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities such as memory problems, learning disabilities, and permanent loss of basic functioning (e.g., permanent vegetative state).3,4

    Like

  205. May 2, 2013 at 11:36 am

    @My3Sons – those are verified, real deaths….I’m sorry that you feel that 400 dead is “acceptable.”

    Like

  206. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 11:39 am

    My3sons, that was in the 1950s when the population in the USA was half of today. That is a very callous attitude towards the families that buried children, and to those who had to send their disease disabled children to places like Willowbrook.

    And you called me awful? I think it is worse to let children get diseases and not care if they die.

    Like

  207. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Well Chris, my statement that 400 ppl of a pop of 300,000,000 not being, percentage wise, that significant is still accurate regardless of whatever emotions you attach to it. If the stats are 63 years old why would you not post recent data?

    On the flip side one could pose the same question back to you… Do you feel as if the vaccine Injurues and deaths children (and adults) have suffered due to an adverse vx reaction are acceptable? Do you feel for those individuals/ families? Or are they just considered collateral damage for the greater good?

    Like

  208. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 11:57 am

    Forgot to include Lawrence on that first part.

    Like

  209. May 2, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    @My3sons – you’re playing again to the “Nirvana” & “Perfect World” fallacies…..so, what, if your mind, constitutes a “safe” vaccine?

    Please provide a concrete definition, so that we’re all on the same page.

    Like

  210. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    Because most of us vaccinate to protect our children, so only a few get measles.

    If you want me to discuss vaccine injuries and deaths, you need to provide verifiable statistics. And that means answering the question I asked multiple times in Comments #3, 23, 82, 120, and 150.

    Like

  211. May 2, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    @My3Sons – you seem perfectly capable of disregarding the very real and very severe side-effects of actual diseases, which occur at a frequency many magnitudes greater than even the more common mild side-effects of vaccines (inflammation & soreness at the injection site).

    The actual number of serious vaccine reactions are vanishingly small – in some cases, being almost unknown (real, actual documented cases) for individual vaccines. Don’t you think, that if serious reactions occurred at the frequency that you & others claim (millions, by most accounts in the anti-vax world) that it would be extremely easy to spot them & provide documentation?

    Put aside your “conspiracy theories” & try to explain that, if you can.

    Meanwhile, in Wales, 1 in 11 people infected are being hospitalized for Measles.

    Like

  212. May 2, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    @My3Sons – using you own words, that as a percentage 400 out of 300,000,000 is not “significant,” the current rate of serious vaccine reactions is as low as 1 in 1,000,000,000 – which would mean we might find 300 individuals, out of 300,000,000 that would suffer a “severe” reaction…….so, in your mind, that also would be “insignificant,” right?

    Like

  213. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    I do not disregard potential harm to my children regardless of the source. I do ktheir hare have been documented side effects of VPD, but I also know there are documented negative side effects and death from vaccines as well. As I said before, it’s a frustrating position for a parent to be in, but I and many others live in this reality.

    Nobody knows the actual number of deaths or Injuries from vaccines because, as the CDC admits, adverse events are only reported about 10% of the time. It would be great if my child could be tested somehow to see if he were more or less likely to have an underlying issue that may trigger one of the severe documented side effects. Can that be done? If no, why not? Do you know if they are working on such a screening process?

    It is not a conspiracy theory Lawrence, it’s a genuine fear of a severe vaccine side effect happening to one of my boys, which happens to be (at this moment) more of a concern to me than the illness itself. I wish it were not the case, but the seed of doubt has been planted for me enough to make me reluctant to inject my children without things changing, things like COI of pharma backed studies, real placebos used in studies, carcinogenic and mutagenic effects studied, long term reproductive effects, vx vs. Unvxed, Less preservatives, Removal of neurotoxins and hazardous waste, you get the idea.

    Maybe as you say I am looking for Nirvana when it comes to vaccine safety, but as it stands now, the other side has convinced me enough to be a doubter. But Lawrence, I still do come here and listen to your arguments as well. Hopefully in the near future I will be convinced, either way, without doubt. That is what I hope.

    Like

  214. May 2, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    @My3Sons – then my recommendation to you is to do some real, in-depth research into the ways that vaccines are tested and tracked. Your definition of “placebo” is incorrect, and your opinions are based on “fear-mongering” not actual Science.

    Start with Todd’s website: http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Which addresses most of your original points & shows why the anti-vaccine movement is bereft of real evidence…..otherwise, I know you will probably never be convinced, since you set completely unrealistic (i.e. Nirvana & Perfect World fallacies) expectations on the process.

    If you look at the real evidence, with un-biased eyes, you’ll see the bankruptcy of the anti-vax position.

    Like

  215. My3sons
    May 2, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    I am going outside to soak up some vitamin D3, and get some color, even though many studies say it’s bad, but I will bring my iPad and read what you suggest Lawrence. Thanks again for the info and enjoy the rest if your day. 🙂

    Like

  216. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Lawrence – you said, “@Amber – care to explain, that when researchers who followed up on the parents’ stories of “vaccine damage” found no such thing? If it was so “evident” don’t you think it would be extremely easy to document and present?

    Where are you getting your information? The Doctor’s agreed in my son’s case and many other families I know. I think you have been misinformed.

    BTW….why do you insist that autism has to be purely genetic? Why can’t there be a genetic component and other factors?

    Like

  217. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    Gray Falcon – Do you think you are better than me? Why are you talking down to me? You say I am not educated, don’t know what I am talking about, and don’t know what extrapolate means? You just showed your true colors.

    Like

  218. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    Chris – I answered your question, twice now.

    Like

  219. J. Posey
    May 2, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    jw :
    the kidney failure Nyphrotic Syndrome

    Nephrotic Syndrome, which you didn’t even spell correctly, is a kidney disorder, not failure. Just FYI. What proof do you have that it is caused by vaccines? Seriously? Smh

    Like

  220. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Sock Puppet, you insulted me repeatedly by claiming that I am not autistic. Do not demand respect.

    Like

  221. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    @sp

    Why should we believe a proven liar like you?

    Like

  222. May 2, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    @SockPuppet – if such documentation exists, why hasn’t it been presented?

    In fact, during the Omnibus Autism Hearings, the best three possible cases were submitted for review & in all three cases, the evidence just wasn’t there (videos showed obvious signs of autism in subjects before vaccination, etc).

    Again, if all of this “documentation” and “documented” cases exist, why haven’t they been presented?

    Like

  223. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    Gray Falcon, I didn’t claim that you weren’t autistic, I said I didn’t believe you. There is a big difference, but I guess you don’t have the capability of understanding that, just as I don’t understand what extraplolate means.

    Like

  224. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Lawrence – wow three cases??? They are thousands more to look at. Why did they use 3 cases of children that were born with autism? I can’t explain why they haven’t been presented, you tell me why? My Doc’s know about it…what should the formal process be Lawrence? Let’s get the ball rolling.

    Like

  225. May 2, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    @SockPuppet – why don’t you ask the Anti-Vaccine Plaintiffs, who agreed to role all 3000 cases together and present their best evidence (to guarantee a win for everyone, if they were able to succeed) as part of the hearings?

    They picked the three “best” cases, with multiple different hypotheses as to why vaccines were the causative factor, yet in all three cases, the evidence was found to be wanting (not even meeting the lax standards of the Vaccine Court – in fact, again, evidence was presented that showed that the individual cases showed signs of autism long before the actual “recognized regression” took place.

    So, if you have so much documentation, I’m sure you can fill us in on your experience in filing in the Vaccine Court & surely you can point us to your VAERS entry as well – I’m sure the CDC would love to have such “smoking gun” documentation as you could provide…..

    So, have at it – please educate us with actual facts, since you seem to believe you have plenty.

    And to your response to Gray – your semantic somersaults can’t hide the fact that you clearly stated you don’t believe he is autistic.

    Like

  226. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    I just said I didn’t believe Gray Falcon. What are you talking about?

    Like

  227. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    @sp

    Still refusing to take responsibilities for your actions?

    As expected for a anti-vax liar like you.

    Like

  228. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Sock Puppet, I’d apologize for implying that you don’t know what “extrapolate” means, but when you make it clear you don’t know what “believe” means, I’m not sure I should.

    Like

  229. May 2, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    @SP – yeah, more semantic somersaults….

    Sock Puppet :
    I have nothing to apologize for. You apologize for treating people the way you do novalox.
    No, I do not believe that Gray Falcon has autism.

    Like

  230. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    Lawrence – I can’t comment on the case as this is the first I have heard of it. Again, 3 cases? With children that were determined to have autism at birth? That’s it huh – all over – case closed on the vaccine/autism connection? Wow.

    My Doctor would disagree with you and so would many others.

    Like

  231. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Wow Lawrence, are you really this dense?

    I do not believe Gray Falcon and I haven’t said anything otherwise.

    Like

  232. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Gray Falcon – I wouldn’t accept your condescending apology anyway. You think your are better than everybody else and have shown your true colors and attitude.

    Like

  233. May 2, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Sock Puppet :
    Gray Falcon, I didn’t claim that you weren’t autistic, I said I didn’t believe you. There is a big difference, but I guess you don’t have the capability of understanding that, just as I don’t understand what extraplolate means.

    Actually, given this statement, paired with the one above proves that you are the one that doesn’t seem to understand…..

    As to the Autism Omnibus Hearings, perhaps you need to refine your GoogleFu, since it was the biggest thing in the Anti-Vax world several years ago……it was supposed to be the “Be-All, End-All” of proving the vaccine-autism link, but it didn’t work out that way.

    I’ll spare you all of the details, but over 3000 Vaccine Court cases were consolidated & the Plaintiffs chose the three best cases (with the most “evidence”) to present to act for all of the cases – if they had won, all 3000 cases would have been awarded appropriate damages….hence, they pulled out all of the stops to provide experts, evidence, etc – including videos, medical records, etc.

    Even with all of that, the three “best” cases couldn’t meet the standard of evidence – which in Vaccine Court is much less than Civil Court…..again, the evidence didn’t show what the anti-vax folks thought it did (and frankly, a number of their experts were embarrassments).

    If you don’t believe me, read the transcripts and rulings yourself.

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/omnibusautism.html

    Like

  234. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    @sp

    Hypocrite much? You have not shown any evidence to support your views, and have instead resorted again to insults and ad homiems.

    But again, thanks for your implicit admission that you don’t have any evidence supporting your views.

    Like

  235. May 2, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @SP – again, if you’re so convinced and your doctor is so convinced, and you have the records to prove it, why haven’t you filed a claim with the Vaccine Court?

    Oh, and please point us to your VAERS entry as well – because if your doctor agreed with you, he would have fallen all over himself to make the entry (which would have led to follow-up by the CDC).

    Like

  236. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Lawrence – why don’t you do some home work and look up the difference between “claim” and “believe”

    Like

  237. May 2, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @SP – I’ll reiterate the question, since you don’t seem to understand simple English:

    again, if you’re so convinced and your doctor is so convinced, and you have the records to prove it, why haven’t you filed a claim with the Vaccine Court?

    Oh, and please point us to your VAERS entry as well – because if your doctor agreed with you, he would have fallen all over himself to make the entry (which would have led to follow-up by the CDC).

    Like

  238. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Sock Puppet:

    Chris – I answered your question, twice now.

    Prove it. Provide the links to those answers. You are not exactly a paragon of honesty.

    Like

  239. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    Lawrence, you seem to know more about me then I do. Why do you say that we didn’t file a claim? As a matter of fact we did and what a complete joke that is. If you are using Vaccine Court as your standard then that explains alot. It’s complete BS.

    Like

  240. May 2, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    @SP – and I’ll answer your question, despite your failure to answer mine – it is quite likely that autism has a majority genetic component with some environmental aspects as well, and based on current evidence, any environmental component is pre-natal, not post-natal (to do with the mother – age seems to be a factor, as is weight, along with others as well).

    So, nothing to do with the Pediatric Vaccine Schedule, which has been studied over and over and over again – showing no link.

    How about you explain why, in retrospective population studies, the rate of autism is the same, regardless of the vaccine status of the individuals studied?

    Like

  241. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    I just looked and I do not see you posting any PubMed indexed studies. So, no, you have no factual answer with real evidence.

    Like

  242. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    Chris, there are no links, I answered your question. Look in comments above.

    I am more honest then anybody conversing with me right now.

    Like

  243. May 2, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    @SP – great, then you can provide your claim information or at minimum, the VAERS entry (which doesn’t include any personal information, just the description of what happened) – you would also be able to tell us how the CDC follow-up went, since all serious vaccine reactions noted in VAERS are followed-up on & researched……

    Sorry to back you into a corner, because I find it very hard to believe your ever-changing story – you filed with the Vaccine Court, but you never heard about the Omnibus Hearings?

    Sounds very unlikely to me.

    Like

  244. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Lawrence – you explain to me why children regress, if it is all prenatal?
    You explain to me why my boy had the vaccine reaction and shot directly into autism?
    You show me the study showing that the autsim rate is the same with vacc and non vacc kids.

    Like

  245. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    @sp

    Thanks for admitting that you have no evidence to back up your assertions.

    And don’t make us laugh at your assertion of honesty, you’ve been caught lying, and still continue to do so.

    At least through your lying, you tacitly admit that the other posters here have been telling the truth.

    Like

  246. May 2, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/3/604.abstract

    A good place to start…..

    There is plenty of great material out there that talks about the process by which regressive autism may occur, which is very similar to the way that Schizophrenia typically manifests itself in otherwise completely neurotypical individuals in their late teens & early 20s.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the mechanism for both afflictions are similar.

    Like

  247. May 2, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    @SP – here is even more information:

    http://casgroup.fiu.edu/pages/docs/1447/1268768420_Barbaresi.pdf

    Like

  248. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Why is a study on Thimersoal a good place to start? My son had multiple vaccines all at once with many ingredients besides Thimerosal.

    Also, the study mentions a rise in autism after thimersol was taken out? I thought there wasn’t a rise in autism and it was just better diagnosis etc?

    Obviously, if there was a rise in autsim after thimerosal was taken out then it;s not all about thimerosal is it?

    Your going ot base regressive autism on some “material” out there on schizophrenia but are going too ignore thousands of stories from parents testimonies?

    Like

  249. May 2, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    @SP – and here is even more factual information for you:

    http://jpeds.com/webfiles/images/journals/ympd/JPEDSDeStefano.pdf

    Like

  250. May 2, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @SP – there are thousands of cases where “neurotypical” teenagers suddenly started showing signs of Schizophrenia…..do you want to blame that on vaccines too?

    And stop avoiding the hard questions – why not answer a few for a change?

    Like, please provide your VAERS entry…..

    Like

  251. May 2, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    And the actual PubMed entry:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889

    Like

  252. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    I don’t know Lawrence…..were these teens vaccinated the day of the onset?
    Is there any evidence that vaccines are contributing to these schizophrenai onsets?
    Do the parents think there is a connection?
    Anything?

    Like

  253. May 2, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    And one more SP – there really is a lot of information available, if you get past the anti-vaccine myth machines…..

    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

    Like

  254. May 2, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    @SP – and I count 39 separate citations of other population-based studies that refute the link between autism & vaccines…..so perhaps you should start answering questions, instead of asking them.

    Like

  255. May 2, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @SP – so, I’ll repeat my question one last time, which, if you don’t answer, shows that you are nothing but an evidence-free anti-vaccine troll:

    great, then you can provide your claim information or at minimum, the VAERS entry (which doesn’t include any personal information, just the description of what happened) – you would also be able to tell us how the CDC follow-up went, since all serious vaccine reactions noted in VAERS are followed-up on & researched……

    Sorry to back you into a corner, because I find it very hard to believe your ever-changing story – you filed with the Vaccine Court, but you never heard about the Omnibus Hearings?

    Sounds very unlikely to me.

    Like

  256. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Lawrence – there are many. many, many studies. I’m not going to go back and forth with you debating studies. Yes, lots of studies are available, and have nothing to do with anti-vaccine myth machines. My own experience is not a myth.

    You must not have a very good understanding of VAERS. If I provide you with a claim number, you will have access to my personal information and I’m not giving you access.

    Not sure why you find it so hard to believe that children are injured every day by vaccines.

    Like

  257. May 2, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    @SP – I thought as much, evidence-free anti-vaccine troll…..

    I have an excellent understanding of VAERS – it is easy to search for & find specific entries, which don’t include any personal information (heck, anti-vaccine folks do it all the time for their own purposes).

    Since you can’t even come up with that or even a consistent story, you’ve shown your true colors. Thanks for the opportunity to post of all of that factual information that shows no link between autism and vaccines – it will be a great resource for others who want to see real evidence, as opposed to anti-vaccine lies.

    Like

  258. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    SP:

    Not sure why you find it so hard to believe that children are injured every day by vaccines.

    Because of the lack of evidence. If the numbers are as high as you claim, it would have appeared in the epidemiological studies, and in the Vaccine Safety Datalink records. They have not. If you have actual verifiable scientific evidence to the contrary, then present the PubMed indexed studies from qualified researchers.

    Remember there is a difference between belief and evidence. At the moment there is real evidence of over a thousand cases of measles in Wales, with almost 10% needing very expensive hospital care.

    Like

  259. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Lawrence – you are wrong. It does provide personal information and everything as it happened and how it went down. So I guess you are the liar.

    Like

  260. Sock Puppet
    May 2, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    Chris – vaccines and autism are complicated and don’t come in a nice neat little package for you. But please go on and keep ignoring all of the evidence presented by parents.

    Like

  261. novalox
    May 2, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    @sp

    Still continuing your lies and not presenting evidence as well as ignoring the evidence presented to you?

    What else would we expect from a anti-vax liar like you.

    Like

  262. May 2, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    @SP – actually, that would be in violation of HIPAA & isn’t the actual case. I just downloaded several searches through VAERS & did not find a single piece of PI anywhere.

    So, if you’ll just provide you entry number, we can at least confirm that said entry actually exists, what vaccines were involved and when.

    If not, you’re once again proven the liar & again, thank you for the opportunity to deal you an overwhelming beating using real evidence & Science.

    Like

  263. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    SP, I am not ignoring the parents. They have been lied to, and because of those lies there are some very sick people with measles in both Wales and North Carolina.

    Again, if what you say is true there would be actual verifiable evidence. But after over two dozen studies there is no real relationship between vaccines and autism. There is, however, a very real relationship between measles and very serious side effects like pneumonia, blindness, deafness, SSPE, seizures, etc.

    Like

  264. May 2, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    @SP – how about this one?

    Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the health concern raised. However, in general, coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data on WONDER should be used with caution as numbers and conditions DO NOT reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that information included in the VAERS data does not mean that the vaccine caused the adverse event. Review cautions in the interpretation of this data.

    So, please comment on the CDC follow-up on your “serious” VAERS entry…

    So, SP has taken the fairly typical anti-vax troll trajectory here…..asks for evidence, which is dutifully provided, which is then ignored in place of “stories.”

    Too funny – and a liar too.

    Like

  265. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Test

    Like

  266. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Test 2

    Like

  267. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    It won’t post my example of information I just pulled from VAERS to prove to you what information is available.

    Like

  268. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    Test 3

    Like

  269. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Try another example

    Patient developed Shingles 3 days after vaccination. Patient had no prior history of Shingles, was not ill, had not been ill for atleast 3 months prior to vaccination and did not have a history or reason for a low WBC or other immunilogical problems.

    Like

  270. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    Take your pick, see what you can find.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/data

    Like

  271. May 2, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    @SP – wow, that’s a mess of “personal information” there, I mean, I could totally tell you the name, address and SS# of that person in that example you cited……totally justifies your hesitancy to provide your entry information…….NOT!

    Again, glad to see you are so full of it.

    Like

  272. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    There is more detailed information that I would rather you not know about me and my family. It is creepy and there is no reason for it. If you don’t think so, then feel free to give me some of your speciific detailed family medical history.

    Like

  273. May 2, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    Anti-vaccine troll, just go away…..since you won’t even provide information on the CDC follow-up, I still call shenanigans on your entire story. Not even one shred of proof or evidence provided.

    So typical of the anti-vaccine groupies – they can’t win by providing evidence (because they don’t have any), so they act all hurt & try to make an emotional appeal instead.

    Like

  274. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    SP, the difficulty in posting is because there have been some who have posted many abusive comments, and they have been banned. Because they keep trying to come back and post more insults, the automatic moderation here is turned on to a very sensitive level. It doesn’t help that there a few people who keep posting with sock puppets, like yourself.

    We have all had difficulties with the posts disappearing. Sometimes you can send an email to Ms. Vara and she will post the comment.

    Like

  275. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Since I won’t give you my family medical history it’s all nonsense.

    Where is yours Lawrence? If you don’t think it is a big deal, then cough it up. Come on, give us some juicy personal, specific, medical details about your family. Details, you would rather not have me know, even though I don’t know who you are. It can’t hurt anybody right? Hypocrite

    Like

  276. Lawrence
    May 2, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    LOL – you made the claims, so the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

    No evidence, no proof, no truth….just go away.

    Like

  277. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    That’s what I expected from you Lawrence. What’s good for the for the goose isn’t good for the gander.

    It’s not about my claim or evidence, it’s about personal privacy.

    Like

  278. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    @SP- There is a difference. You explicitly declared your family was evidence for your claims. We did not do such a thing, so we are under no obligation to provide any details. If you were in a jury, would you trust a prosecutor who said “We have evidence that the defendant committed the crime, but we aren’t going to show you it.”?

    Like

  279. May 2, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    @Gray – exactly. This isn’t about us (or me, for that matter), since I didn’t make the claim or bring my family into it. SP did that & now refuses (indignantly – typical anti-vax behavior when they have no evidence or are caught in a lie) to man up and back up his particular claims.

    It is easy to try to put the onus or attention back on us, because it serves as a distraction from the fact that he has, at every turn, had his baseless assertions countered by actual scientific proof and evidence.

    Like

  280. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    Gray Falcon, that is fine, but having you read my VAERS report proves nothing and I am not comfortable giving out this information. You and Lawrence clearly understand this as Lawrence will not give out his information even though I have no idea who he is. So quit making this about me not providing my evidence, as the truth is, it is a privacy issue. Period.

    Like

  281. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    @SP- You were more than comfortable to declare it to be your evidence. If you truly valued your privacy, you would have brought them up in the first place.

    Like

  282. Lawrence
    May 2, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    @SP – so, when you can’t beat them with facts, baffle them with BS, right?

    Because of your inability to provide any evidence of your assertions, despite you being the one to mention it in the first place, we can safely assume that you have been lying since your first post.

    Done with you now. Been fun, thanks again for the opportunity to post up real evidence to show how wrong your so-called beliefs are.

    Like

  283. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Gray Falcon – just becaue it is my story and my evidence doesn’t mean I am obligated to be an open book with my family and our medical history. I can’t bring up my story of my injured child unless I am willing to give you all the information you want and that I am not comfortable with? You are not anybody in any power to make any decisons or any changes to anything, so why would I devulge to you?. It’s just a big game for you and Lawrence and an excuse to try and deny my story.

    Lawrence – You can ASSUME anything you want about me. And you would be WRONG.

    Like

  284. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Oh I didn’t see your good-bye Lawrence. It’s been a blast!

    Like

  285. Lara Lohne
    May 2, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    SP, even if your child was damaged by vaccines (difficult to prove if you are unwilling to post anything to back up your claim) your child is one child. How many millions receive vaccines and are fine?

    If your son has a legitimate medical reason to be except from vaccination, then this particular bit of legislature doesn’t even affect you. This is only about those parents who just don’t want their child to be vaccinated, but don’t have any legitimate reason for it.

    Honestly, if your child is that vulnerable that the weakened pathogens in the vaccinations caused trouble, how much more devastating would the diseases themselves be? I would think you would be trying to persuade everyone who might potentially interact with your child to get vaccinated to help keep your child safe. That’s what I would do.

    Like

  286. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    One child? Try thousands Lara.

    Like

  287. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    SP:

    One child? Try thousands Lara.

    Why should we believe you?

    Like

  288. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    Because it is true….please join a few autism groups and you will quickly find out. Same story, over and over and over again.

    Like

  289. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    SP :
    Because it is true….please join a few autism groups and you will quickly find out. Same story, over and over and over again.

    I’m part of a group of autistics, and none of us blame vaccines for our nature.

    Like

  290. SP
    May 2, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    Gray…join some more. I belong to over 15 different types of autism groups and they are all pretty much the same.
    How old are you Gray and what is the average age of the people in your group? I’m sure on the older side. Not kids any more – correct?

    Like

  291. Chris
    May 2, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Stories are just stories. SP, you have shown many times that you are less than truthful. What you need is actual evidence.

    Like

  292. Gray Falcon
    May 2, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    The autism group I belong to is for autistic people, not just their parents. What are your groups like? Most likely, you just belong to 15 different pity parties.

    Like

  293. Lara Lohne
    May 3, 2013 at 1:16 am

    SP :
    Because it is true….please join a few autism groups and you will quickly find out. Same story, over and over and over again.

    As the parent of an autistic child, and the partner of an autistic adult (which we only just received confirmation of two months ago) I belong to many autism groups, both for parents of autistic children and for advocates/allies of autistic adults. Nobody in the groups I belong to talk about vaccines being to blame. In fact, I was very quickly and harshly ousted from the autism groups that do make those claims when I told my story and it didn’t align with theirs.

    My son was neurodiverse from birth, vaccines didn’t change him at all. He did have regression beginning about 14 months of age, but it wasn’t an all of a sudden thing, it was gradual, over a few months to a year. But my son didn’t get vaccines just prior to his regression, because he fell behind, not having medical coverage to continue with his well baby visits. The last vaccine he received prior to his regression were his six months vaccines. Then when he had already been diagnosed as significantly developmentally delayed at 2 and half and accepted into the Early Intervention program, we began getting his vaccines caught up. He is current now, thank goodness, and has continued over the past 3 and a half years to make steady progress, though he is still delayed so clearly he still has autism.

    A couple thousand loud people do not drowned out the science that has investigated their stories and found nothing to substantiate those claims. Just because they continue to claim it, doesn’t make it true.

    Like

  294. May 3, 2013 at 10:56 am

    @Lara – the typical anti-vax individual is still pretty much living in the late 1990’s & early 2000’s (around the time of the Lancet Study). They still believe in the fraudulent studies by people like Wakefield & the Geiers, and ignore the subsequent decade’s worth of research that either failed to replicate the previous results (like the Lancet Study) or showed that the research was fraudulent / not related to the topic for which it was presented (like the Geiers).

    They’ve chosen a point in time that they think supports their beliefs & ignore everything else that happened after. The questions were asked, the research was done & we discovered that the hypothesis presented, that autism was somehow related to vaccines was false.

    Of course, in relation to the current topic, they also still believe that vaccines are somehow response for a whole host of childhood issues (i.e. the “chronic disease claims”) without any actual supporting evidence whatsoever.

    At the end of the day, they’ve trapped themselves in their own beliefs & no amount of evidence to the contrary (because they’ll always pull out the “Big Pharma” conspiracy card as a weapon of last resort) will convince them otherwise.

    It is unfortunate, because we will have to deal with the very real and very dangerous consequences of a return of a variety of vaccine-preventable diseases……

    Like

  295. May 3, 2013 at 11:09 am

    @Lara – it is an interesting psychological study, to speak with anti-vaccine individuals who still believe some very bold-face lies presented about vaccines & VPDs (and autism).

    For example, they still insist that the Amish neither vaccinate nor have autism. When, it has been pointed out time and time again that the Amish do vaccinate (albeit at a slightly lower rate than the general population) and they do have autism (at a rate similar to the general population), plus a much higher rate of developmental disabilities (mostly due to the limited gene pool).

    There is also the oft-repeated claim that there are no unvaccinated autistics – even though one of the Founders of AoA has a completely unvaccinated autistic daughter.

    And lastly, the claim that VPDs were in steep decline even before vaccinations – which is disproved easily once you look at the difference between “mortality rates” and “incidence rates.”

    Again, all of these lies are repeated over and over again, despite the fact that they are not only easily disproven, but in some cases (like the Amish) it is so blatantly false that anyone who repeats it should be embarrassed.

    Like

  296. Annis
    May 3, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Sock Puppet,
    I am glad you have taken the time to engage here, your comments are perceptive and true. I would not have had the stamina to keep fighting for so long, but my mitochondrial disorder caused by vaccines has weakened me. I’m sure you understand why your accurate reasoning just bounces right off the facades if the regular commenters here. But many read the comments, skipping over those of *, *, *, and *, and focusing on those of people like you. Thank you for your commitment to sanity and health.

    Like

  297. Annis
    May 3, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    I’ve been reading over the comments, I’ve enjoyed your comments My3Sons, and would say the same to you that I just said to Sock Puppet. I hope you’ll continue our educational mission here, difficult and unpleasant though it may be.

    Like

  298. May 3, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    @Annis – if you do in fact have a mitochondrial disorder, there is no mechanism for it to have been caused by vaccines (since you were born with it – it is a genetic problem).

    If you want to talk about Hannah Poling, odds on chances are that she would have reacted to any fever, not just a fever from a vaccine.

    Like

  299. May 3, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    @Annis – if you’re aren’t interested in an honest discussion, please head over to AoA – they love people like you.

    Like

  300. Clarie
    May 3, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Lara/Novalox/Venna,
    I just read your amusing comment about the new Venna potentially nym-jacking, to explain your indignation at the new Venna saying something anti-vax and calling it nym-jacking. And now you have to backtrack to explain why you both use and deny using nyms.

    Like

  301. Stone
    May 3, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    I usually do, Lawrence, but sometimes I go slumming.

    Like

  302. May 3, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    @Claire / Stone – sockpuppets show the bankruptcy of your position….if you need to make yourself appear to exist in greater numbers than you actual do.

    Like

  303. May 3, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    @Lara – another interesting phenomenon to be witnessed here, that the typical anti-vaccine individual will continually ignore any and all evidence presented that repudiates their stated position, regardless of source.

    They will also always put more faith in personal anecdotes / eyewitness testimony over hard science, even though this type of “evidence” is considered the least reliable (witness the many innocent people who were wrongly convicted of crimes due to “eyewitness testimony” only to be exonerated years later due to hard science.)

    Autism / Vaccine research started with the “stories” to form the original hypothesis – which has been tested over and over and over again, in multiple different ways – yet in each and every instance, the reputable Science has shown the original “conclusions” were false.

    Autism isn’t caused by vaccines – rates of autism are similar in vaccinated, under-vaccinated, and unvaccinated populations & the Science gets addressed in presentations and papers like this:

    https://imfar.confex.com/imfar/2013/webprogram/Paper12796.html

    To continue to pull the Three Monkeys routine & ignore the past decade’s worth of research that obliterates the hypothesis is to show exactly how empty and pig-headed the anti-vaccine groups have become.

    Like

  304. Chris
    May 3, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Annis:

    I would not have had the stamina to keep fighting for so long, but my mitochondrial disorder caused by vaccines has weakened me.

    Citation needed. I really want to see the paper that shows how your mitochondrial DNA that you had when you were born was damaged by vaccines after you were born. That has got to have some interesting time travel implications.

    By the way, the sock puppet routine has gotten very old. Choose a username and stick with it.

    Like

  305. Russ
    May 3, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Not born with mito disorder, Lawrence. Study on hep-b vax causing mito disorder:

    Apoptosis. 2012 Jan 17. [Epub ahead of print]
    Hepatitis B vaccine induces apoptotic death in Hepa1-6 cells.
    Hamza H, Cao J, Li X, Li C, Zhu M, Zhao S.
    SourceKey Lab of Agricultural Animal Genetics, Breeding, and Reproduction of Ministry of Education, College of Animal Science and Technology, Huazhong Agricultural University, Wuhan, 430070, People’s Republic of China, Heyam68_hamza@yahoo.com.

    Studies on mercury causing mito disorders, because it binds tightly to the electron transporting system inducing oxidative stress and biochemical abnormalities often found in autism:
    R. Nataf, “Porphyrinuria in Childhood Autistic Disorder: Implications for Environmental Toxicity,” Toxicol. Appl. Pharmacol., 2006 july 15; 214(2):99-108.

    Like

  306. Karen
    May 3, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    You guys have also been unable to post citations of studies, because the site has been programmed to block them intermittently. You have all had posts sent into the ether as well as we have. So why demand studies? The site is supposed to accept them, but it often refuses to, and not because they are insults. How could the citation of a study be an insult?

    Like

  307. Karen
    May 3, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    Again, Chris, not born with it. The studies above show that the vaccines or ingredients like mercury cause mito disorder, which, by implication, means that the mito wasn’t there before the shots.

    Like

  308. Gray Falcon
    May 3, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    @Karen- Just ask the site admin, and she will post your answers. We are not like your kind, we welcome discussion.

    Like

  309. May 3, 2013 at 3:00 pm
  310. Chris
    May 3, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    Russ, first if you put chemicals on mouse liver cells in a petri dish, you are going to affect them. Like putting salt on a slug. So if salt kills a slug, does this mean you will never consume salt again? Also, that paper does not show mitochondria is affected by vaccines.

    Also, Karen/Russ/Annis/etc, what vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal? Remember (and you should have since I have asked your various sock puppets this before), do not include influenza since four out of the eight vaccines approved for children are thimerosal free.

    Like

  311. Lara Lohne
    May 3, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Clarie :
    Lara/Novalox/Venna,
    I just read your amusing comment about the new Venna potentially nym-jacking, to explain your indignation at the new Venna saying something anti-vax and calling it nym-jacking. And now you have to backtrack to explain why you both use and deny using nyms.

    I’m not novalox, and I’m also not this Venna, though there have been times in the past when I used the nym Venna, and anyone who knows me would know that, which is why I believe that individual is nym-jacking. I’m not sure where you got the idea that I was expressing indignation for anything, because I never did feel indignant, although I do find your inability to separate me from two other people a bit confusing. I am my own person and like to be acknowledged as such, and think most people are similar in that regard. I did use the nym Venna here, when I first began posting, then I started using my real name because I don’t have any reason not to. That doesn’t make me the same person a novalox or this new Venna. Hopefully I have made that sufficiently clear to alleviate your confusion.

    Like

  312. Kilroy
    May 3, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    If you aren’t this Venna, then there has been no nym-snatching. You can’t lay claim forever to every nym you have ever used. Only imagine the havoc if I took that tack! I think you went back to Novalox when that woman got so angry at you the other day for saying there had never been mercury in vaccines, and you thought you’d better retreat into your most recent nym.

    Like

  313. May 3, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    @Kilroy – Lara isn’t Novalox….

    And there has never been straight Mg in vaccines, ever – the closest thing is Thimerosal, which is like saying “OMG – there is Chlorine & Sodium in your food!!!” because you are using table salt….try some Science for a change, you might learn something.

    Like

  314. Lara Lohne
    May 3, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    Random rants and insults from random ignorant people on the internet are easy to ignore. I’ve been called much worse to my face by my own family. I don’t speak to them anymore, why should I give someone who feels the need to behave in a childish manner over the internet the time of day?

    Like

  315. novalox
    May 3, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Ironic that trolls that have to use sockpuppets have to resort to baseless accusations just to bolster their positions, saying that I have to use sockpuppets. Shows the utter moral bankruptcy of their position to make such accusations at the same time not showing any shred of actual proof of their position.

    But hey, I’m honored to be seen in the same light as Lara.

    Like

  316. Chris
    May 3, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    It would be an honor to be considered as a Lara Lohne sock puppet. But I am not a sock puppet, I am merely myself: a parent who has a child with multiple medical issues who needed herd immunity for pertussis due to seizures while living in a county where there was lots of pertussis.

    (sarcasm) Thank you Lea Thompson and Barbara Loe Fisher! (/sarcasm)

    Like

  317. Westwood High Teacher
    May 3, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    The anti vax crowd are running scared!

    Like

  318. Venna
    May 3, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    Why are you talking about me?

    Like

  319. Venna
    May 3, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    I am not Lara and she is not me.

    Like

  320. May 5, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    When the anti-vax crowd needs to resort to name-calling, sock-puppeteering & advocating junk science, it just shows the hollowness of their relative position…..

    Like

  321. Lara Lohne
    May 5, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    Kilroy :
    If you aren’t this Venna, then there has been no nym-snatching. You can’t lay claim forever to every nym you have ever used. Only imagine the havoc if I took that tack! I think you went back to Novalox when that woman got so angry at you the other day for saying there had never been mercury in vaccines, and you thought you’d better retreat into your most recent nym.

    The only nym I have ever used is Venna. If I don’t use Venna I use my real name. I have used Venna in various different places for well over a decade and continue to use it in various different places. Hence the reason I believe this particular Venna is nym-jacking. Regardless, none of this is pertinent to the discussion at hand, so time to drop it.

    Like

  322. May 5, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    @lara – I agree. Since I’ve also been the victim of nym-snatching, it is a fairly obvious, obnoxious tactic by anti-vaccine idjits to do nothing more than cause problems.

    Again, if you can’t argue the facts, try to baffle them with BS – standard anti-vax tactics.

    Like

  323. My3sons
    May 5, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    @ Lawrence… Have you seen this? Do you think it is a valid study?

    Like

  324. My3sons
    May 5, 2013 at 6:36 pm
  325. May 5, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Roundup is not a vaccine, so it is off topic. And this is the actual paper:
    http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416

    You will note that the author has no real qualifications in the field, and it is not indexed on PubMed, which is suspicious for a bioscience paper. The journal, Entropy, has a dubious reputation, as noted in the comments of this blog:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/11/20/dumpster-diving-in-the-vaers-database-again/

    Like

  326. Chris
    May 5, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Oh, and I only really looked at the first author’s name, Dr. Seneff’s reputation precedes her. the second link is all about her. You will recall that I ask for a PubMed indexed paper, I actually point out that computer scientists, along with lawyers, etc. are not qualified researchers.

    Like

  327. My3sons
    May 5, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    Thanks for your input.

    Like

  328. May 5, 2013 at 7:55 pm

    @Chris – interestingly enough, Jake Crosby’s family is linked to Monsanto…..I wonder if I should write a follow-up article?

    Like

  329. George
    May 6, 2013 at 9:45 am

    Chris,
    Just as chemicals will have an effect on mouse liver cells in a petri dish, so will they have an effect on mouse cells still in a mouse, or on human cells still in a human, and not all of them are desired or desireable effects. That’s what this whole war is about. I just wrote my representative to ask her to vote for the vax/unvax study which has never been done, proposed by Congressman Bill Posey the other day. He was instrumental in organizing the congressional hearing in November on vaccines and autism, because so many constituents with children whose autism was caused by vaccines have called for a vax/unvax study. You people should be totally behind it, if you’re right then such a study would vindicate you. Are you afraid of what it will show? If you’re wrong, you’ll be out of a job, but a lot of children will be saved from a lifetime of disability.

    Like

  330. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 9:50 am

    George, salt will have an effect on mouse liver cells in a petri dish, but you will die if you do not consume a certain amount.

    Also, how do you plan to have that vax/unvax study conform to the Belmont Report?

    And yet another username? The use of sock puppets is just pathetic.

    Like

  331. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 10:01 am

    George/Russ/Kilroy/etc:

    You people should be totally behind it, if you’re right then such a study would vindicate you. Are you afraid of what it will show? If you’re wrong, you’ll be out of a job, but a lot of children will be saved from a lifetime of disability.

    No. What we do not want to see is another Tuskegee. There is a reason for the vaccines, and parents whose children are in the placebo group would find out when measles, mumps, chicken pox and pertussis comes to their communities. Along with refusing to stick to one username, you are do not understand that simple fact.

    Karen/Annis: just post the PubMed identification numbers, or look at the examples I posted. It is because of those who keep changing their usernames to post the same lame arguments and insults that the moderation on this site is so sensitive. So find a username and stick to it.

    Like

  332. May 6, 2013 at 10:40 am

    @George – I’m sure, if such a study was conducted (in the fashion that would guarantee the best, randomized results – which, is completely and utterly unethical & frankly dangerous), and it didn’t show what you wanted, you’d all be up and arms & claim all sorts of bias, etc.

    It would be entirely unethical to put children at risk of very real and very dangerous childhood diseases, just to prove what is already known and accepted by the Scientific Community at large – that vaccines are safe, effective, and not responsible for either autism or the other host of ailments that the anti-vax goups claim.

    I would recommend that you read up on the Tuskegee Study – and figure out why we don’t conduct scientific research like that anymore…..

    Like

  333. George
    May 6, 2013 at 11:22 am

    Chris,
    The only people you think are qualified researchers are those who work in or have vested interest in the vaccine industry. Some of us see a problem with this picture. For obvous reasons, you do not.

    Like

  334. May 6, 2013 at 11:23 am

    @George – please name “qualified” researchers that you would consider “unbiased.”

    Like

  335. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 11:38 am

    Lawrence, I just learned something called “PRATT”, or “point refuted a thousand times (or previously refuted a thousand times).” I saw this URL just a few minutes ago:
    http://scienceornot.net/2012/04/18/repetition-of-discredited-arguments-parroting-pratt/

    George/Kilroy/etc, I personally see problems in the picture where kids get sick and permanently disabled by vaccine preventable diseases for no good reason.

    Like

  336. May 6, 2013 at 11:44 am

    @Chris – there are numerous anti-vax individuals here that are poster-childen for PRATT.

    Like

  337. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 11:56 am

    The two/three people here who are the main sock puppets are those poster children. It is like they cannot or just refuse to learn. It is amazing how they twist things around, and make spurious comments without really thinking, like how unprotected children do and have suffered dearly with measles, pertussis, etc.

    There is more on that website:
    http://scienceornot.net/science-red-flags/

    Like

  338. G.
    May 6, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    Several of my calm, non-insulting comments addressing specific points brought up here have disappeared. Do you censor comments which do not agree with your party line?

    Like

  339. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    It happens to all of us. Just email Christine Vara.

    Like

  340. May 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    @G/George sock-puppet – as has been noted in previous threads, the “spam filter” has been set at a very high level, due to the abusive comments made by a variety of individuals….which has led to issues for everyone attempting to comment at one time or another (or multiple times).

    If you are having an issue with a specific comment, please send it to the blog owner and she will make sure it gets posted.

    As to your general statement about censoring posts – please explain why a place like AoA severely moderates its posts & rarely lets anyone but the most strident anti-vaxxer post?

    Is seems to be the pro-vaccine websites that allow for a real discussion……and allowing just about anyone to post, unless they break the rules of the forum.

    Like

  341. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Also read comments #275 and #332. Explaining stuff to is over and over again to you is really boring.

    Like

  342. Hill
    May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Isn’t that the truth. Expllaining the facts to you over and over again is really boring. I’m glad there are so many new arrivals come with fresh blood as reinforcements.

    Like

  343. Lara Lohne
    May 6, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Yeah, my comments aren’t posting again, but it appears that Chris and Lawrence have this one covered anyway.

    Like

  344. May 6, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    For any of our anti-vax contingent, I would recommend reading:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Todd’s excellent website that addresses many of the typical lies, misinformation and misinterpretations of the anti-vax community.

    Because, most of what you typically post is easily refuted there (all in one place).

    Like

  345. Chris
    May 6, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Hill, you are another sock puppet. Considering you repeat the same blather a day or so after it was refuted with actual evidence, you are just being pathetic.

    So, Hill, will you try to just give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed study that shows that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis? Plus, give the verifiable scientific citation that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. If is all about the risks of vaccination versus the diseases, I am sure you have those PubMed citations available. Just make sure the authors are qualified, and have not had their license to practice medicine revoked or have non-applicable educations like law, business, computer science, geology, etc.

    I am sure you’ll prove you are not a sock puppet by actually answering. Or will you run away, come back with a different name and start with the same silly stuff?

    Like

  346. stampoparole
    May 13, 2013 at 2:21 am

    I just surfed the replies to other postings and see a definite pattern. Chris, Lawrence and Novalox gangstalk and parrot over and over the need for citations while insulting the individual. In fact their responses are so canned, it appears that some if the above are copy and paste. They do not read the posting of anyone opposing their C.D. View, but just go on the attack. I would not surprise me to find ‘they’ are the same shill. The responses are too naive to be the product of groupthink. Cute. I bet you exceeded at junior high school drama. 🙂

    Like

  347. May 13, 2013 at 5:54 am

    @Stamp(troll) – god forbid we should ask individuals for evidence to back up their uneducated assertions…..so, many of us have posted a variety of scientific studies, from multiple sources (domestic & international).

    Do you have anything to add? Or are you just hear to throw around insults?

    Like

  348. stampoparole
    May 13, 2013 at 6:13 am

    Insult you? Why Lawrence you do that so well to yourself why would I possibly want to interrupt. Still waiting on anything that would support vaccines as anything but junk science. Please, recount the virtues of the fake Dr Salk or how the target disease does not cluster around the vaccine locations? Use your imagination. Just reach in and grab a scientific study. One word of warning, I have been all through PubMed, Medline, NIH, CDC, FDA, WHO and many international databases and can skim the research very quickly for shill research – mostly by Merck, so be judicious in what you present.
    You are awesome!!

    Like

  349. Gray Falcon
    May 13, 2013 at 7:13 am

    “Fake” Dr. Salk? Seriously? My parents lived through the polio era. They are eyewitnesses to the fake that the Salk vaccine worked.

    Like

  350. May 13, 2013 at 9:05 am

    @Gray – for someone who is so divorced from reality as Stamp(troll), there is no reason in the world to engage them.

    Like

  351. Chris
    May 13, 2013 at 9:28 am

    “Still waiting on anything that would support vaccines as anything but junk science.”

    See this: http://scienceornot.net/2012/12/04/the-reversed-responsibility-response-switching-the-burden-of-proof/

    Like

  352. novalox
    May 13, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    @stampoparole

    You also do know that throwing around unsubstantiated accusations here like you have with your constant use of the pharma shill gambit and accusations of sockpuppetry is grounds for banning here, right?

    Like

  353. Narad
    May 13, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    Chris, Lawrence and Novalox gangstalk and parrot over and over the need for citations while insulting the individual.

    Stampoodle, you don’t know from insult.

    Like

  354. stampoparole
    May 14, 2013 at 4:24 am

    Why if it isn’t yet another single track shill attempting to be all lovey dovey with me! Welcome to the gang Dingo! Totally superfluous and redundant, but a warm welcome all the same!
    I think that I at least alluded to the fact that I’ve been consumed by research for the past 3 years. The information overload has gifted me with discernment that I wish I could confer on you painfully cute sweethearts, but all in good time. Patience. The universe is kind in the end. I do, however, understand how frustrating it can be for you. L&K’s and goodnight!

    Like

  355. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 10:12 am

    Stampoparole:

    I think that I at least alluded to the fact that I’ve been consumed by research for the past 3 years.

    And yet you have posted any PubMed citations, much like I posted in Comment #89. I see you are switching to an older article, instead of the more recent one where I posted at least nine PMIDs.

    Like

  356. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 10:13 am

    And what comment made by Dingo are you replying to? He has not commented on this page.

    Like

  357. stampoparole
    May 14, 2013 at 11:06 am

    Chris,
    You and I both know that PubMed is little more than the brochure department for Big Pharma and on the serious crime side of publication bias. I prefer research done outside of the US, in the far reaches where BP doesn’t get their tendrils into the results.
    I see no merit in your citing the research as it takes but a basic search to locate any shilled vax research article.

    Like

  358. May 14, 2013 at 11:12 am

    @Stamp(troll) – so not actual scientific citations then, right?

    Again, you’re doing a wonderful job painting the anti-vax groups as complete nutters…please keep up the good work.

    Like

  359. Gray Falcon
    May 14, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Stamp, let me explain something to you. By making false accusations against us rather than providing evidence, you shown yourself to be without any sense of ethics or morals.

    Like

  360. novalox
    May 14, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    @stampoparole

    Comments containing the following elements will be deemed inappropriate and will be removed from the blog:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;

    Also, I see that you blame vaccines for your daughter’s fibromyalgia, even though there is no evidence of that cause.

    Like

  361. Joe
    May 14, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    @novalox

    Comments containing the following elements will be deemed inappropriate and will be removed from the blog:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;

    Like

  362. Christine Vara
    May 14, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    We would like to remind all participants to please refrain from personal attacks. Inappropriate comments will be removed and repeated offenses will result in the restriction of further participation on this forum.

    Like

  363. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    Stampoparole:

    You and I both know that PubMed is little more than the brochure department for Big Pharma and on the serious crime side of publication bias.

    Prove it. Please do tell us how all of the journals from around the world produce brochures for Big Pharma. Do tell us exactly what pharmaceutical paid for this paper: PMID: 9652634. Do re-educate us with your knowledge on how the World Health Organization is a thrall of Big Pharma. Provide verifiable documentation.

    I prefer research done outside of the US,

    Okay then:

    PMID: 15889991
    PMID: 15935101
    PMID: 22521285
    PMID: 19171612
    PMID: 17400342
    PMID: 12876158
    PMID: 12142932
    PMID: 10376617
    PMID: 12415036
    PMID: 11850369

    Now it is your turn to provide some real evidence.

    Like

  364. stampoparole
    May 14, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    I’m guessing that multiple accusations of ‘liar’ leveled at numerous commenters throughout this blog by Lawrence and Chris are immune from the rules of the blog?

    Like

  365. novalox
    May 14, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @stampoparole

    You’ve made several accusations and ad homninems, while the regular posters here have not made any such attacks on you.

    Do you think that you are exempt from the rules?

    Like

  366. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    I am sorry, Stampoparole, could you point me to the comment I made that broke the rules? Did I not provide you the citations from outside of US? Would you like more? Like perhaps PMID: 21412506?

    Though you did make a claim about the index of global medical literature being part of Big Pharma, specifically saying “PubMed is little more than the brochure department for Big Pharma and on the serious crime side of publication bias.” Is asking you to support that claim the equivalent of calling you a “liar”? I don’t think so. If you truly have the data to support that claim, then I will be convinced.

    Also, if this blog has a version that includes “Reply to” a specific person that sends it to a different page, I would love to learn about that.

    Like

  367. stampoparole
    May 14, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Chris,
    Always glad to help! It may depend on your technology. I get an email from ‘Doses’ that has a ‘Reply’ hot link. The link takes my to the ‘Doses’ page, which in this case has a dialog box and says ‘Reply to Chris’. I’m not sure if other phones (mine is an iPhone) or PC’s do this, but that is what I am seeing. I will have to check my Mac when I get back to the office what it looks like. The ‘Doses’ system is telling me that I am replying to your message.
    Oh, you called me a liar several times, but it may have just been copied and pasted from any number of replies that you’ve parroted to other parties interested in joining the open discussion. (Please read up on open discussion protocol).
    Also, I do want to point out that I have the highest regard for the researchers. They operate within the system the best that they can. It is not the researchers that create the publication bias, but those that control the access.

    Like

  368. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    Thank you. I see it is part of a phone app. That clears that up.

    “Oh, you called me a liar several times, but it may have just been copied and pasted from any number of replies that you’ve parroted to other parties interested in joining the open discussion.”

    Link to comment as an example, please.

    Like

  369. Chris
    May 14, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Also in regards to your comment: “PubMed is little more than the brochure department for Big Pharma and on the serious crime side of publication bias.”

    Please clarify your response with some supporting documentation when you say: “It is not the researchers that create the publication bias, but those that control the access.” Who controls, and what is the evidence?

    Like

  370. Dante
    September 2, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    I just think it’s hilarious how the vaccine supporters point to “.gov” or FDA websites…
    Of course the people putting the bad stuff in your systems are going to say that they’re not.
    If I was in the vaccine industry and I was making big bucks by giving people dirty vaccines, I would lie and say that the vaccines help too.

    Now tell me, how does Mercury help the body in any way? It doesn’t. There’s no possible way that Mercury can help. No preservatives, nothing about Mercury is good for the human body.

    I haven’t had a vaccine since I was 3 (I was forced to).. and I’m healthier than people in my town. Every time my friends go to get vaccines, they have MASSIVE headaches that last months. Their skin is irritated near the place where the shot was given. Nothing good.

    I haven’t caught a single one of those contagious diseases and I completely ignored my school telling me that I have to take them.

    “More diseases will spread if we don’t get vaccines!”

    I beg to differ.. me and about 200 other people haven’t gotten vaccines since we discovered that they contain mercury, and we’ve been fine…

    My brother got a vaccine for the flu last year, and ever since then, he’s had a bad headache, and he always feels fatigued…

    He’s sustained mild brain damage, and nobody knows where it’s come from.

    Forget those shots. They’re all lies and anyone who believes them are just asking to be harmed.

    Like

  371. September 2, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    @Dante – so no real evidence then, huh?

    And for the studies that have been shown over and over and over again that vaccines are safe, effective, and much better than the diseases that cause them….

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Last I checked, the AAP wasn’t a .gov or FDA website…..

    Like

  372. novalox
    September 2, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    @dante

    [citation needed]

    Like

  373. September 2, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Dante: “Now tell me, how does Mercury help the body in any way?”

    Actually, please tell us which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available without thimerosal. Do not include influenza because half of those approved for children have no thimerosal.

    “I haven’t caught a single one of those contagious diseases and I completely ignored my school telling me that I have to take them”

    We can tell that at school you ignored lots more things. Like basic chemistry, logic and English grammar and rhetoric.

    Like

  374. September 2, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    @Chris – of course, Dante is taking advantage of the fact that the vast majority of people still vaccinate, meaning he gets to “hide in the herd” and rely on the vaccination status of others to protect him.

    I am fully vaccinated (and up to date), as is my family – and I can say, we don’t have any allergies, haven’t had more than a few colds, and seem to have done pretty well for ourselves, health-wise….just to show you that you can’t use vaccinations as any gauge for overall health – except for the lack of catching VPDs.

    Like

  375. dingo199
    September 2, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    I am more concerned that Dante lives in a utopia where he and his 200 friends dwell in a state of utter health perfection and blissful ignorance.
    Never vaccinated, yet they have never had diseases like chickenpox, mumps, rubella, measles etc.
    What will they do when they emerge from their quarantined desert island and rejoin the real world?

    Think of the devastation- it would be like the Amerindians encountering those disgusting european explorers for the first time, or the Aztecs saying hiya to Magellan and Co.

    Dante, quick, before it is too late, write your will.

    Like

  376. September 2, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    I see the wrecking crew have found a new victim. Argumenta ad hominem get tedious after a while. Here is an entire list from which to choose your abusive cackle of flat earth pro-vaccine drivel. Yes, vaccines will eventually be put in the same category as the once hard held belief that the earth was flat. Remember, they would burn naysayers to death as heretics… Love and kisses! http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

    Like

  377. September 2, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    @Stamp – thank you for pointing out the idiocy of the anti-vaccine argument….you’ve yet to provide any actual evidence of your own position, if I remember correctly…..the cognitive-dissonance you portray is quite frankly breathtaking….

    Like

  378. Bob
    September 19, 2013 at 11:33 am

    Lawrence, I would like you to try something. Go to a doctor and tell them that you will not give your child the vaccine. Then tell the doctor that if they want to give the child the vaccine, then they will take full responsibility of any side-effects or repercussions that your child. I had a doctor tell me the immunization shots were completely harmless for my children. When I asked them to take responsibility for an ill-effects and they can give the shots without my permission, the doctor immediately change his demeanor and response. He started to say, “Well, there are some risks involved…” and started to trip over himself on his responses. The doctor will not do it for they know of the risks. When they come in and have you fill out the forms, one of the forms is a release to allow the doctors to give the immunization shots and not hold the doctor’s responsible for any ill-effects, including up to death! Example from most of the vaccinations from the CDC website:
    However, a vaccine, like any medicine, could cause serious problems, such as a severe allergic reaction or even death. The risk of a polio vaccine causing serious harm is extremely small.

    I even had one doctor call child services saying that we were “neglecting” our child. After providing the child services with the knowledge we had of what vaccines can and can’t do and all the dangers involved, the case was dropped immediately. Interesting, isn’t it?
    I have seen first-hand a nephew, who acted like a normal, health child, to immediately change after the immunization shots. There was no change to diet, location, or anything external, except for the shots. Even though there are studies that supposedly “refute” this was the cause, but we know that there is a lot of corruption out there, especially in the medical field, as well as government, so those studies could be falsified to make an extra sale.
    I choose to what I can find and, especially from first-hand experience. Most of the individuals that chose to refuse the immunization shots have more knowledge of what it does than most of the parents that allow their children to get the shots. I hope that this will bring some light on the situation. The immunization shots are not without risks. I’m not saying they are harmless or that everyone should NOT give their children the shots, but you must be well-informed and know that the doctor’s do not always have you or your children’s best interest to heart. Some WILL lie to you to add another charge to your bill. It is up to us, as parents, to do what we feel is correct for our children and find out all the information we can and make the best judgement we can.

    Here’s an example of the complications from the MMR shot, for example from the CDC websites:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
    Mild Problems

    Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
    Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
    Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
    If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.

    Moderate Problems

    Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
    Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
    Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

    Severe Problems (Very Rare)

    Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
    Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
    Deafness
    Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    Permanent brain damage
    These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

    Like

  379. September 19, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    @Bob – and here are the complications for the actual diseases….you’ll note that the serious reactions occur in much higher percentages (by a magnitude or more over even the mild vaccine reactions)…..your view of cost / benefit is really screwed up.

    http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/complications.html

    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rubella/in-short-adult.htm

    Like

  380. dingo199
    September 19, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Bob,
    Have you thought how many people have choked to death while eating? Or died from an unexpected food anaphylaxis reaction? Far more than ever died after a vaccine shot, that’s for sure.

    I wish you well in getting your school’s cook to sign your bits of paper making them accept responsibility for any problem your child ever has while eating. Good luck with that one!

    Of course, you could just put your brain into gear, determine the benefits of eating far outweigh the risks, and let your kid get on with it.

    Like

  381. November 1, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    If a child is not allowed to go to a public school due to non-compliance with vaccination laws, that child should be given a school voucher to go to a private school of their choice.

    Like

  382. November 1, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    @John – we shouldn’t be rewarding bad behavior.

    Like

  383. November 3, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    You have more chances of dying in a car crash then getting a “disease.” Should we stop driving?

    Like

  384. Sean
    November 22, 2013 at 12:34 am

    Lawrence :
    @Tom – what “specific” scientific studies do you find so “compelling?” Should be an easy answer…..

    There aren’t any. Ppl like Tom are long winded on the rights that intelligent ppl have guaranteed them… and that includes the right to be a back woods, stupid, ideology reinforcing, underinformed idiot. Just because your government, which you probably also ramble long and hard AGAINST, I’m betting, affords you a right or freedom, doesn’t mean it is something intelligent. Ppl are affording the right to believe Allah is God’s chosen prophet. Do you agree with that, as well, just because its allowed?

    Ppl like you are a dime a dozen. you ramble on and on with circular logic to insulate yourself in your poor decision making, citing books that aren’t fucking education, their indoctrinational. Its interesting that you don’t cite any actual, corroborated, or even NEUTRAL articles or books. And you don’t cite any STUDIES because there AREN’T! The one study you have that has made any link to anything like autism has been debunked and its AUTHOR has admitted to faking his data.

    Just because you can cite a guaranteed constitutional protection doesn’t mean that it was specifically protected for the reasons you cite. Hell, heroin use is techinically “protected”, by drawing basic logical inference int he constitution among the list of things that an adult American can do… until it was specifically prohibited… because too many ppl were making STUPID decisions regarding its use and creating self harm and harm for others.

    Just stop already. Its clear from your rambling who you are, how you think, and how much you’ve actually read. Go stick with your self reinforcing bullshit. I myself will continue to carefully spend hours scouring information to check its veracity everytime I read or hear something that I tend to agree with a little TOO much. I am often disappointed and find what I WANTED to believe was false. When it comes to vaccines, I have yet to find ANY compelling, intelligent, well sourced, non hack nutjob bullshit.

    BTW, the way you list your few journalists and ppl who’s nutsack you’re hanging from as if “because they believe it it must be legit” makes it all the more clear you actually DON’T do any research on your own. You find ppl out in the world of commentators who’s opinion you like, then decide retroactively that they therefore must be accurate in any and all things they say think and believe and then fall in line with the rest of the whackjobs accordingly. Ppl like you are an annoying waste of air. TBH, America would be far better off with far fewer ppl like you grasping for their freedom of religion to protect them from critical thinking. There are far MORE ppl out there whose freedom of religion allows them to believe and behave in 100% contradictory ways to you… what does that tell you about its connection to well thought out decisions?

    Like

  385. Sean
    November 22, 2013 at 12:44 am

    There is more mercury in a can of tuna than in a child’s vaccination. The amount of mercury IN even Thiomersal is so low it is inert. You could fill an entire child’s size dose of vaccine with nothing BUT Thiomersal and it wouldn’t be enough to DO anything.

    THe danger in mercury is due to heavy RE exposure of an extended period of time, dimwits. Its a heavy metal that builds up in your system, which you body has a difficult if not almost impossible time ridding itself of. After frequent re-exposure, it begins to have toxicity and start eliciting symptoms. The ppl who studied and documented those symptoms and levels wouldn’t even know how on earth you ppl are making a logical connection with the effects they discovered and the means you believe led to them… because your understanding of how mercury poisoning occurs is such that you believe the equivalent of someone sneezing and making someone else pregnant. It just doesn’t work that way… but you know what? There are ppl out there in the world who believe you can get pregnant from sneezing, too… So why I am surprised at ppl’s lack of understanding here?

    Like

  386. Sean
    November 22, 2013 at 12:59 am

    Bob :
    Lawrence, I would like you to try something. Go to a doctor and tell them that you will not give your child the vaccine. Then tell the doctor that if they want to give the child the vaccine, then they will take full responsibility of any side-effects or repercussions that your child. I had a doctor tell me the immunization shots were completely harmless for my children. When I asked them to take responsibility for an ill-effects and they can give the shots without my permission, the doctor immediately change his demeanor and response. He started to say, “Well, there are some risks involved…” and started to trip over himself on his responses. The doctor will not do it for they know of the risks. When they come in and have you fill out the forms, one of the forms is a release to allow the doctors to give the immunization shots and not hold the doctor’s responsible for any ill-effects, including up to death! Example from most of the vaccinations from the CDC website:
    However, a vaccine, like any medicine, could cause serious problems, such as a severe allergic reaction or even death. The risk of a polio vaccine causing serious harm is extremely small.
    I even had one doctor call child services saying that we were “neglecting” our child. After providing the child services with the knowledge we had of what vaccines can and can’t do and all the dangers involved, the case was dropped immediately. Interesting, isn’t it?
    I have seen first-hand a nephew, who acted like a normal, health child, to immediately change after the immunization shots. There was no change to diet, location, or anything external, except for the shots. Even though there are studies that supposedly “refute” this was the cause, but we know that there is a lot of corruption out there, especially in the medical field, as well as government, so those studies could be falsified to make an extra sale.
    I choose to what I can find and, especially from first-hand experience. Most of the individuals that chose to refuse the immunization shots have more knowledge of what it does than most of the parents that allow their children to get the shots. I hope that this will bring some light on the situation. The immunization shots are not without risks. I’m not saying they are harmless or that everyone should NOT give their children the shots, but you must be well-informed and know that the doctor’s do not always have you or your children’s best interest to heart. Some WILL lie to you to add another charge to your bill. It is up to us, as parents, to do what we feel is correct for our children and find out all the information we can and make the best judgement we can.
    Here’s an example of the complications from the MMR shot, for example from the CDC websites:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
    Mild Problems
    Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
    Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
    Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
    If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
    Moderate Problems
    Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
    Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
    Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

    the doctor will not do it because its IMPOSSIBLE to accurately predict EVERY possible outcome. Its possible your child has some rare on in a trillion trillions cases of strange hyper sensitivity to any of the components of the vaccination, including the inert virus itself… which means they will have the same reaction when exposed to the disease, but which means the doctor ends up having to bear the responsibility for something your kid’s own genetics control. why would he do that?

    doctors can’t stand ppl like you. psychopathically self interested to the possible harm of others, yet still happily, ignorantly enjoying the benefit of herd immunity while placing said herd at risk. You’re a freeloader that is too stupid to even understand basic logic or basic motivations behind an unfair responsibility you place on your doctor. It truly is tragic that the rest of society can’t hold YOU responsible for any of the multitude of possible outcomes should your child end up actually causing “herd damage”, so to speak.

    I can’t wait until dumbasses like you are just bred out of the population. Unfortunately, you unfairly get to sit in the gene pool longer than you rightly should because the rest of the gene pool has taken measures which you can also benefit from without actually participating in.
    Severe Problems (Very Rare)
    Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
    Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
    Deafness
    Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    Permanent brain damage
    These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

    There is more mercury in a can of tuna than in a child’s vaccination. The amount of mercury IN even Thiomersal is so low it is inert. You could fill an entire child’s size dose of vaccine with nothing BUT Thiomersal and it wouldn’t be enough to DO anything.

    THe danger in mercury is due to heavy RE exposure of an extended period of time, dimwits. Its a heavy metal that builds up in your system, which you body has a difficult if not almost impossible time ridding itself of. After frequent re-exposure, it begins to have toxicity and start eliciting symptoms. The ppl who studied and documented those symptoms and levels wouldn’t even know how on earth you ppl are making a logical connection with the effects they discovered and the means you believe led to them… because your understanding of how mercury poisoning occurs is such that you believe the equivalent of someone sneezing and making someone else pregnant. It just doesn’t work that way… but you know what? There are ppl out there in the world who believe you can get pregnant from sneezing, too… So why I am surprised at ppl’s lack of understanding here?

    Like

  387. Justin
    November 22, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    Maybe you shouldn’t be eating tuna, Sean.

    Like

  388. John Smith
    December 22, 2013 at 2:06 am

    The whole discussion about exemptions is meaningless until you can answer the following question: How do you know that the proof-of-vaccination records the other parents are submitting to your kid’s school aren’t forged?

    Are there any mechanisms in place to verify these claims of vaccination? Are pediatricians in your state required to report this data to any state agency for validation? Does the superintendent of your child’s school district know the answer to any of these questions?

    From the intractability of the overall debate, it has become fairly clear to me that the only thing that will get through to antivaxers is when they see kids in their own community needlessly die or suffer permanent injury. But what if the outbreaks happen and yet the schools are reporting 98% vax rates because people are lying on the forms? This would be the worst of both worlds: diseases come back AND people get to avoid the forehead-smack of reality.

    Antivaxers are always arguing about how they have the right not to vax their kids. That’s right, they do. But even though I have the right to use public motorways doesn’t mean I have the right to drive on them after chugging a 6-pack. Similarly, just because the Constitution might protect the other guy’s right to endanger his own kid does NOT mean he has the right to endanger yours. Verify the forms. **VERIFY THE FORMS**

    Like

  389. Honestly
    December 22, 2013 at 9:23 am

    This post, and others by this author, have been removed by the administrator due to the author’s use of offensive terms and personal attacks.

    Like

  390. Gray Falcon
    December 22, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Honestly, if you drive safely, does it matter if I drive drunk?

    Like

  391. December 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    @Honestly – good job violating every single posting rule in a single rant…..

    Like

  392. Chris
    December 22, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    Honestly: “Hey douchebag…if your kid is vaccinated, then what are you worried about?”

    Instead of insults, please tell us how you would protect a baby from pertussis and measles. The MMR vaccine is not given until a child over a year old, and the pertussis vaccine does provide optimal protection until the entire series has been completed. Provide verifiable documentation that you plan actually works.

    “Side note…I wouldn’t put my kid in a public school anyway that way she won’t become an idiot like you and the rest of lazy, fat, over consuming americans sheoples.”

    That is perfectly okay. But I would suggest that you make sure that she attends a school which has a curriculum with adequate English grammar, science, math and critical thinking instruction. One thing to look for is a good debate team. And no, “debate” is not defined as “flinging insults at your opponent.”

    Like

  393. John Smith
    December 22, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Honestly, if you drive safely, does it matter if I drive drunk?

    @grey falcon, umm…i must be missing the joke here? drunk drivers do kill other motorists, sooo…not sure what point you’re making.

    Like

  394. Gray Falcon
    December 22, 2013 at 5:49 pm

    John Smith: There is a small possibility that for any individual person, the vaccine will not work, or cannot be given. What happens if your child interacts with one of them? No precaution is perfect, especially if it is applied poorly.

    Another example involves fire codes. If all the buildings on a block are built to code, then if a fire breaks out, there is a better chance of putting the fire out. If only one building in the area is, then there is a greater chance of a fire destroying it.

    Like

  395. Monica
    January 1, 2014 at 1:17 pm

    Lawrence,
    Most vaccines are injected into the muscle or just under the skin, but if it were not quickly absorbed into the bloodstream, it would not work at all. You know that. And the body has natural filters to filter out most toxins and pathogens before they reach crucial internal body systems like the brain and bloodstream. Injecting vaccines bypasses the natural filters and alarms the immune system with an assault that millions of years of evolution have not prepared it for. And so the toxins like mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, propylene glycol, polysorbate, and the foreign proteins of the vaccine pathogens and the culture media, all highly antigenic (allergy-provoking), are absorbed quickly into the blood, raise potent alarms and provoke a last-ditch, all hands on deck response from the immune system, which mounts a powerful inflammatory response (often causing encephalitis in the process, which blocks blood flow to the brain), which is necessary to force the production of antibodies, but often causes immense and/or chronic damage on its own.

    Like

  396. Chris
    January 1, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Monica: “And so the toxins like mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, propylene glycol, polysorbate, and the foreign proteins of the vaccine pathogens and the culture media, all highly antigenic (allergy-provoking), are absorbed quickly into the blood, raise potent alarms and provoke a last-ditch, all hands on deck response from the immune system, which mounts a powerful inflammatory response (often causing encephalitis in the process, which blocks blood flow to the brain), which is necessary to force the production of antibodies, but often causes immense and/or chronic damage on its own.”

    Citation needed from verifiable medical literature.

    Like

  397. novalox
    January 1, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    @monica

    You do know the phrase “the dose is the poison?”

    You do also know about the LD50 ratio for all of those items you listed, right?

    Because the amount of those things you listed that are in vaccines are far, far below what actually can affect a person.

    Also, [citation needed] for your other assertions.

    Like

  398. January 1, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    I’m always heartily confused by people that think vaccines are “bad” yet they contain such a small number of antigens & represent such a minute amount of any of the ingredients mentioned (again, ingredient lies & misrepresentations are tackled quite admirably here: http://antiantivax.flurf.net/) – yet the disease itself, which represents a much more robust assault on the human biological system – which can easily spread and affect the entire body in most cases (not to mention the very real and common side-effects that can cripple an individual for life)….and one can never “control” a disease – once you get something like the measles, there are no treatments available….you have to bear it & hope you aren’t one of the unlucky ones.

    Back in the day, these diseases weren’t “benign” as has been posited by some Anti-Vax organizations…they point to the lack of alarm or “dread” of these diseases, as evidenced by dolls, of all things.

    What they seem to not realize, is that before vaccines, these diseases were inevitable – there was no way to prevent the outbreak and spread of these diseases, outside of mass quarantines…so parents were forced to hope for the best…it wasn’t about a lack of fear, as much as the resignation that kids were going to get sick & you could only hope that your child wasn’t one that suffered one of the common, crippling side-effects.

    The absolute ignorance of the average anti-vax person just boggles the mind – you’d think they’d never even picked up a book on the history of disease.

    Like

  399. January 1, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    @Chris – again, the poster makes a number of allegations & assertions, without providing a single shred of evidence….as for the part of encephalitis – we know that the diseases that vaccines prevent, do in fact cause encephalitis in as many as 1 in 1000 cases….whereas most vaccines have never been linked to encephalitis or if mentioned, it may occur in around 1 in 1 million cases…..sorry, I’ll take the miniscule chance of a vaccine reaction over an untamed disease any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Like

  400. Chris
    January 1, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    Lawrence, she has already shown that she cannot be bothered even reading the article at the top of the page. Why should she be bothered providing evidence for her assertions?

    Oh, the doll at AoA! That was about as lame as claiming that TV sitcoms are proof that the diseases weren’t dangerous. The CDC Pink Book Appendix G shows that over four hundred deaths were caused by measles in 1962 in the USA. By the way, the doll with the pivoting faces was very creepy. It should have been the spooky doll in the movie Conjuring. They could have made its head spin around like in The Exorcist. (See a discussion on the silly movie with pictures of the actual doll here)

    Like

  401. Rick Thomas
    January 19, 2014 at 4:24 pm

    My Story!

    My Name is Rick Thomas age 48 Years old I am what you call a Dangerous Severe Needle Phobic witch is a Real Medical Condition! for the past 48 Years I have never had a vaccination or Blood work or any Needle procedures Ever Done on me. Back in 1976 I was on Vacation in Wisconsin with a severe Ear Infection and I was taken to a local doctor in town but I had no idea this Doctor was going to Give me a Shot of Penicillin with a 2 inch Needle and Totally got Violent and very angry and was thrown to the Ground by 4 Doctors and I threw them in the Air against the wall and Ran the Hell out of there the Doctor and Nurses from what I was told got Hurt with my Temper! so for the past 48 years I live in Fear and Anger because I Refuse to Ever have a Needle for any Reason even if I am Dying! I Have No Medical insurance and NEVER WILL!!! I Never go to clinics or Hospital and stay away like the plague! I know this might sound extreme but this is my life and I will not Except being a Lab Rat for anyone and I live my life in fear Every day. I have never been so Angry to see Children go through Hell of Vaccinations These Things are very Painful and your Hurting Children and adults everyone has Rights including children but if the Medical field Keeps Treating patients in this manner More and more people will avoid medical care and stay far away. This past week I had a encounter at a local Walgreens of a woman who walked up to me and grabbed me by the arm and I went into full rage telling her to f off keep that crap away from me. I mean what I say I will Never Ever let Anyone stick me with a Needle because they will be very very sorry they tried

    Advise For Adults & children.

    1. Never Hold or force anyone to take a Needle They Have Needle phobia
    2. if you see a person who has this condition Refuse to treat them and have them seek Help
    3. Children will soon have Rights to refuse Needles and parents will no longer be able to force this on them. I am working on this goal
    4. More and more Family’s are Refusing Vaccinations and that’s a good thing Never Refuse to treat patients because there not vaccinated

    I Understand Hospitals need to care for patients but this subject Has Bothered me for the past 48 years and there is no need for the neglect of patients living with this fear and for the medical field to ignore and force this on people!

    Please Google Needle Phobia A Real Medical Epidemic That 10-20 percent of the world has!

    Like

  402. Chris
    January 19, 2014 at 5:49 pm

    Mr. Thomas, so you did not like the needle that you saw almost forty years ago when you were just a kid. Obviously this experience affected your education. We do not use the University of Google to look up medical literature. So why should we care about your rant?

    Like

  403. Lawrence
    January 19, 2014 at 5:53 pm

    @Mr. Thomas – I am unaware of any “needle-phobic” epidemic that we should be concerned about…what I am aware of is an increase in the incidence of vaccine preventable diseases, which is quickly becoming a problem where we should have none.

    I’m sorry that you had a bad experience as a child – I would suggest therapy to get you over this phobia.

    Like

  404. Lev Helfer
    January 20, 2014 at 3:23 pm

    @Lawrence 383,
    Except that choosing to protect your child from vaccine damage is not bad behavior. You make your choices, let others make ours.

    Like

  405. Lawrence
    January 20, 2014 at 3:34 pm

    @Lev – if you choose not to vaccinate your child (for no real reason) then expect to pay the social price – meaning that your child will be asked to stay home for about 3 weeks every time there is a VPD case in your child’s school, or worse, it will be your child who will get sick.

    Public Health Policy is written to protect the public at large – if you choose not to vaccinate, then you will have to accept the consequences of those actions.

    Like

  406. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    Lev, how is it not bad behavior if your child gets a vaccine preventable disease like measles, pertussis or chicken pox? Considering that the diseases are guaranteed to make the child miserable for at least a week, and even more, plus there is a much higher chance of permanent injury from the disease than the vaccine, it is terrible parenting.

    And note that when there is a chicken pox outbreak, your child may end up excluded from school, sick or not, for up to eight weeks.

    Like

  407. Gray Falcon
    January 20, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    I think part of the problem is that we seem to have a different understanding of the concept of risk. For the anti-vaccine folks, risk is a subjective issue, based largely on one’s personal opinion. For those of us who support vaccination, risk is purely objective, measured and calculated mathematically. This isn’t a matter of opinion, this is a matter of established evidence. You can’t say “I feel the vaccine is a bigger risk than the disease” any more than you can say “I feel 2+2=5”.

    Like

  408. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 6:05 pm

    Gray, It’s not about an opinion. There is plenty of information to support a parent’s decision to say a vaccine is a bigger risk than the disease. This is what you don’t understand. The decision is not subjective and measured by all information that is currently available.

    Like

  409. Gray Falcon
    January 20, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    Really, Sean? Then where is this information? If what you’re saying is true, why aren’t you doing anything to back up your statements?

    Like

  410. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    Gray, if you don’t think there is enough information available to make people question vaccines, you aren’t keeping up. As a matter of fact, if one isn’t questioning them by now, they are really out of touch. I don’t blame any parent for choosing not to vaccinate, they are put in a very tough position making these decisions to protect their families. I remember reading the Dr. Sears book and thinking, I don’t want to put all of those nasty ingredients in my kids! I did and it made me sick every time we had to do it.

    Like

  411. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 6:53 pm

    Sean O: “There is plenty of information to support a parent’s decision to say a vaccine is a bigger risk than the disease.”

    Excellent! I have been asking for this information for a long time. Could you please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Then provide those PubMed indexed studies showing the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

    Like

  412. Gray Falcon
    January 20, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    Sean, where is the information? It’s a simple question. You don’t have to insult me for asking.

    Like

  413. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 7:02 pm

    It looks like Ms. Parker has returned. It will be confirmed if this new sock tells us that the info is out there and we are not keeping, and another plug for Dr. Sears.

    Like

  414. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:09 pm

    Chris, Ms Parker? Are you calling Ms Parker?

    Like

  415. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    Gray, Insult you? I didn’t insult you.

    Like

  416. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:12 pm

    There is plenty of information to make you stop and think about it. I am surely not going to send you every piece of information available. I am positive you have see them most of them so you already know about all of the information that would make you think twice about vaccinating.

    Like

  417. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    Sean O.: ” I am surely not going to send you every piece of information available.”

    Then I’ll make it simple: just post the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that shows one vaccine (your choice) is more dangerous than the disease.

    If you think it is the MMR vaccine, then show the study by a reputable qualified researcher that it causes more than one case of encephalitis in thousand doses of the vaccine, which is equivalent to the level of encephalitis caused my measles.

    If you think the DTaP is more dangerous, then just show it causes as much harm as tetanus, which tends to kill about one in ten to twenty.

    Perhaps you think the influenza vaccine is dangerous. Well, about twenty kids have died from the disease this year. Just give us the study from a reputable qualified researcher that influenza kills that many people per year.

    It is that simple. Go for it. Or go away. And if you are Ms. Parker, please get help.

    Like

  418. Gray Falcon
    January 20, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    Sean, you said: “Gray, if you don’t think there is enough information available to make people question vaccines, you aren’t keeping up. As a matter of fact, if one isn’t questioning them by now, they are really out of touch.” So yes, you did insult me.

    Now tell me, what reason do you have for not giving us the information we asked for?

    Like

  419. novalox
    January 20, 2014 at 7:23 pm

    @sean o

    [citation needed] within 3 posts, or we can assume that you are lying about you having information.

    We’ve heard all these assumptions by anti-vaxxers, but none have ever given actual scientific proof. So, as they say, put up or shut up.

    Like

  420. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:25 pm

    Gray, you must have very low self esteem if you consider “being out of touch” an insult. I will be more careful not to hurt your feelings any more.

    Like

  421. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 7:28 pm

    Sean O., where are those PubMed indexed studies? You have two more chances.

    Like

  422. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:28 pm

    novalox, if you deny that there is negative information about vaccine out there, then you are lying. I have read through some of the articles here and have seen you comment and debate those who come with negative information and negative studies.

    Like

  423. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    Where are those PubMed indexed studies? You have one more chance.

    Like

  424. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:30 pm

    Chris, now who are you? Demanding studies? I never stated I would supply you with studies. Why don’t you go back and read what I said. Also, you may need to get checked if you keep claiming I am another person. Paranoid much?

    Like

  425. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 7:33 pm

    You said there was information, and I asked for it. Your chances are up.

    Go away troll.

    (and if you don’t want to be mistaken for Ms. Parker, you should stop using her habits)

    Like

  426. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:41 pm

    Chris, there is tons of information and you have debated it time and time again. Why deny it now? You look very foolish to say there isn’t negative information out about vaccines. Good luck to you in life, you obviously need help.

    Like

  427. Sean O
    January 20, 2014 at 7:43 pm

    Here is one of those studies that “doesn’t” exist. As a parent, you read something like this and you have to question everything you thought you knew about vaccines.

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/2047-9158-2-25.pdf

    Like

  428. novalox
    January 20, 2014 at 8:31 pm

    @sean o

    You do know using stuff from the geiers, who have been stripped of their medical licenses, are not approved for any research whatsoever, and using an article from Medical Hypotheses, which is not a reputable scientific journal, does not count as evidence, right.

    Again, where is your actual scientific evidence? You failed to provide any, so until you actually give some, we can assume that you have none.

    Like

  429. Lawrence
    January 20, 2014 at 9:30 pm

    You mean the “Geiers?” Only one of whom was ever a doctor (not anymore, since all of his medical licenses have been terminated or lapsed), the other who was taken to task for practicing medicine without a license (you know, not being a doctor and all)….

    The Geiers who championed the chemical chelation and castration of autistic children? Writing false diagnose of “precocious puberty” to try to justify their experiments on children….whose research has been thoroughly debunked, even at face-value due to the 900+ degree temperatures necessary to get testosterone to bond to elemental mercury (not the mercury compound Thimerasol, mind you) in a Petri dish – never shown to actually occur in any human being (being completely biologically impossible).

    So, besides that, what do you have – because I will cite this:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Which refutes all of the Geiers’ claims and more. If you can refute the science, please do so, and if you complain of some conspiracy, bias or cover-up – produce the evidence, or we know you have nothing.

    Like

  430. Chris
    January 20, 2014 at 10:27 pm

    Sean O., someone who has lost their legal right to practice medicine is not reputable. The others are mostly not qualified.

    Try again. Remember, if you make a claim you need to support that claim. Preferably from researchers who are not trying to bolster their “expert witness” business, and working with others trying to get “evidence” for their own lawsuits. Including one who has used the court system to silence a blogger: http://www.dmlp.org/threats/sykes-v-seidel

    It is even mentioned at the end of the article:

    Competing interests
    All of the investigators on the present study have been involved in vaccine/
    biologic litigation.

    And to top it all off, all vaccines on the present American pediatric schedule come in thimerosal free versions. So the whole statistical travesty is ten years out of date and therefore moot.

    Like

  431. February 7, 2014 at 8:19 am

    Terrific work! That is the type of info that are supposed
    to be shared across the internet. Shame on Google for
    no longer positioning this submit upper! Come on over and discuss with my web site .
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    Like

  432. Mommy says no
    March 29, 2014 at 8:57 am

    You want proof and citations we’ll come see many of the kids that have autism and ADHD from that crap. You say there is no heavy metal anymore than why do they check for autism and ADHD from heavy metals. I think you pro vax need to see the struggle from a son who can’t function right and suffers cause he can’t be normal. Who can’t calm himself or can be so smart but be so lost inside himself. Maybe you guys need to start thinking and not attacking others who choose after educating themselves or getting the vax and suffering from the decision you made.

    Like

  433. Chris
    March 29, 2014 at 10:19 am

    “I think you pro vax need to see the struggle from a son who can’t function right and suffers cause he can’t be normal.”

    That describes my oldest who had seizures while suffering from a now vaccine preventable disease. Seizures are real and do cause permanent damage.

    If you wish to be taken seriously you will provide us PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing a vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease it prevents.

    Like

  434. Narad
    March 29, 2014 at 2:36 pm

    Mommy says no :
    You say there is no heavy metal anymore than why do they check for autism and ADHD from heavy metals.

    The only ‘they’ I’m aware of who this has ever applied to is people selling bogus test results in service of the bogus “detoxification” industry.

    Like

  435. Lawrence
    March 29, 2014 at 3:52 pm

    @Narad – correct & chemical chelation therapy shows large amounts of “heavy metals” when used, because it leaches minerals from the bones – sometimes causing lasting damage & event death…it has nothing to do with “heavy metal or mercury.”

    Like

  436. lilady
    March 29, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    Mommy says no :

    “You say there is no heavy metal anymore than why do they check for autism and ADHD from heavy metals”.

    Mommy confuses plumbism or lead toxicities, caused by environmental exposures such as peeling paint and the fumes, and contamination from lead runoff pollution of waterways, by heavy industry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

    Perhaps “Mommy” will show us all the vaccines which contain lead.

    Like

  1. May 1, 2013 at 10:33 am
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  6. September 19, 2013 at 10:54 am
  7. December 31, 2013 at 2:22 pm
  8. March 20, 2014 at 7:05 am
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