Home > Expert Insights, In the News, Preventable Diseases, Testimonials > Measles in Wales Today, But Where Tomorrow?

Measles in Wales Today, But Where Tomorrow?

There are now over 750 cases of measles in Wales with 72 cases being reported since Thursday.  Unfortunately, as can be expected with measles, as many as 77 people have been hospitalized since the beginning of the outbreak and sadly, it may just be a matter of time before someone suffers serious complications and dies.  Although children of all age groups are falling ill, the highest attack rate appears to be in children aged 10 to 18, many of which were not vaccinated because of concerns raised about the safety of the MMR vaccine in the late 1990s – concerns that were sparked by Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent and unethical research.

At the time, some parents made a decision not to vaccinate their children based on the Wakefield’s suggestion that the MMR vaccine (which provides immunity against measles, mumps and rubella)  somehow triggered autism.  However, after dozens of studies have been conducted and countless research funds have been spent, the scientific consensus is that no such link exists.

But have parents gotten the message?  Has science gone back in time to recapture the attention of those who made decisions based on faulty information? 

Apparently not.  Which explains why parents in Wales are now getting their children vaccinated and hoping it won’t be too late.     

Prior to this outbreak, it’s quite possible that these parents, who purposely refrained from vaccination, didn’t really consider measles infection as a risk.  But in the face of the growing outbreak, parents are reconsidering their previous choices.  In trying to get the message out that vaccination is safe and effective, the BBC published a Measles Q&A and Dr Marion Lyons, director of Health Protection for Public Health Wales has been quoted as saying:

”Those not vaccinated are highly likely to catch measles, which is highly contagious, and it is just a matter of time before a child is left with serious and permanent complications such as eye disorders, deafness or brain damage, or dies. It is inevitable that some children vaccinated in the last two weeks will already be incubating measles and vaccination will not prevent them from becoming unwell, but their illness is likely to be milder than if they had not received the vaccine….Measles cannot be taken lightly because you can never tell who will go on to develop the more serious complications of pneumonia or encephalitis (inflammation of the brain). MMR vaccination offers the only protection against these complications.”

So, as parents scramble to get their children vaccinated, in hopes that they aren’t already incubating the disease, many experts have acknowledged that this outbreak did not come as a surprise, and was really considered just a matter of time.  Sadly, the man who is most responsible (which many would argue to be Andrew Wakefield) is not only distancing himself from responsibility, but using it as an opportunity to continue his egotistical need for attention.  (For a full smack down of Mr. Wakefield’s response to the outbreak, check out Mr. Carey’s blog post today on Left Brain, Right Brain.)

Unfortunately, vaccine hesitancy can sometimes result in vaccine refusal.  Which – as we see in Wales – can then present a very real threat to public health.

But make no mistake.  This outbreak may be limited to Wales today, but where will it appear tomorrow?   

In 2011 there were a total of 222 measles cases reported from 31 different states in the U.S. with 90% of them being attributed to importation and 32% of those infected being hospitalized.  In 2012 there were three cases of congenital rubella syndrome.  And wait!  What’s that?  There have been six cases of mumps among college students reported at the University of Richmond recently?  Yes, that’s right.  These diseases may not be very prominent in the U.S. right now (thanks to a highly vaccinated population) however they do still exist and pose a risk to children everywhere.

The MMR vaccine has been proven to be safe, effective and the only protection against a potentially fatal and highly contagious disease.  As a parent, wouldn’t you rather protect your children from diseases that they may encounter tomorrow by vaccinating them today?  Or would you rather wish you had them vaccinated today to protect them in from an outbreak that began weeks ago?  Unfortunately, the only gain we make by delaying vaccines is a greater risk of infection.

This personal story of Dr. Swartzberg of UC Berkeley’s School of Public Health, shared on the Shot By Shot website, provides a wonderful example of how a brief encounter with a measles patient can set off a chain reaction of cases.

  1. April 17, 2013 at 11:52 am

    I think this points out, too well, to the antivax folks what will happen if vaccine uptake declines……people will die or suffer permanent injury, just because of a lack of basic scientific understanding.

    Like

  2. Michael
    April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    Like

  3. April 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    @Michael – the “oh, don’t blame me….I’m not responsible….” video.

    What a fraud and crook.

    Like

  4. Chris
    April 17, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    Michael, can you please give us the title, journal and dates of the studies dating before 1990 showing marked increase in autism after the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine in the USA?

    Since Wakefield claimed the MMR was responsible for autism in the UK just in the ten years between 1988 and 1998, there should have been the same thing happening in the USA for the almost two decades before. The MMR was the favored vaccine for the Measles Elimination Program starting in 1978, so in a much bigger country, the USA should have had huge numbers of autism cases in the decade before 1988. Where is that evidence?

    Like

  5. Michael
    April 17, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Lawrence and Chris,

    Why don’t you take Wakefield up on his offer to debate him? I’m sure Dr. David Salisbury won’t take him up on the offer.

    Like

  6. April 17, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    @Michael – why would anyone want to that charlatan even a shred of credibility by “debating” him? The record speaks for itself – Wakefield is a fraud, his research was fraudulent & his conduct since his GMC Hearing has been nothing more than an attempt to continue to milk the antivax gravy train for all it is worth.

    You have to have “two” legitimate sides for a debate (which is why Scientists don’t debate Creationists) – and in this case, Wakefield doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

    Like

  7. Matt
    April 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    “I was appalled by the science of the MMR studies.” So Dr. Wakefield made up his own science? If he was really on the side of safety he would conduct an appropriate study.

    Like

  8. Chris
    April 17, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Michael, why did you not answer my very simple question?

    Also, Wakefield refused to engage in public discussion with qualified medical persons, see http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/13532/ :

    The only occasion when Dr Wakefield has engaged in any debate on British TV came in the discussion following the broadcast of the hagiographical docudrama Hear the Silence in December 2003. Flanked by his US acolytes Jeffrey Bradstreet and Arthur Krigsman, and parent supporters, Dr Wakefield appeared assertive and defensive in response to challenges from Evan Harris (then a Liberal Democrat MP) and myself. Wakefield has subsequently restricted his public appearances to conferences of sympathetic parents, anti-vaccination activists and promoters of quack autism therapies. When I asked him a question from the floor at one such conference in Bournemouth in February 2007, he simply refused to answer, deferring to another platform speaker. When I offered to debate with him at a follow-up conference in March 2009, the organisers refused.

    Like

  9. Michael
    April 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    So debate him now Chris. Lawrence? You’d be shredded to pieces.

    Like

  10. April 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    @Michael – given that Wakefield refused the opportunity to conduct follow-up research to his Lancet Study at the time (perhaps he knew what was coming?), and his original hypothesis has been proven incorrect, what could possibly be gained by “debating” such a man?

    He had his opportunity to defend himself, yet he refused (dropped his libel case in the UK, did not appeal the GMC Decision) – so, exactly why is he relevant, other than as a person who has a direct link to this particular outbreak (and potentially a very direct link to the measles outbreaks in the Minnesota Somali community here)?

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  11. April 17, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    @Michael – shredded how? His research is a lie, the man is a charlatan & the medical community is left to pick up the pieces because of his atrocious activities against public health…..yeah, a real stand-up guy.

    Like

  12. novalox
    April 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    @michael

    Why should we even bother to debate.

    A debate implies that there are two sides to an issue, with valid points.

    In this case, the anti-vax side has nothing even close that validates its side, since the science points to no connection between autism and vaccines, so the debate issues is unwarranted,

    And debates like mr wakefield is proposing is not how science works. Science has found out that mr wakefield is a fraud, deliberately manipulated evidence, and was bought by a lawyer to manufacture a controversy.

    And if you don’t answer Chris’ question within 3 comments, it is a tacit admission by you that you admit that you have no actual evidence to support your side.

    Finally, to your earlier assertions, [citation needed].

    Like

  13. April 17, 2013 at 3:36 pm

    Here is a much better video to watch:

    Like

  14. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 17, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    Andrew Wakefield has been debated. In the scientific literature. He lost.

    Notice that Andrew Wakefield changed his debate challenge. At first he said he’d debate any serious challenger. Then, after Mike Fitzpatric took the challenge, Wakefield changed the terms to David Salisbury.

    Wakefield lacks courage. His bluff was called and he moved the goalposts.

    Andrew Wakefield had the false courage to claim that the MMR causes autism. I know he now claims he didn’t, but the facts are the facts. He had the false courage to publicly state that he wouldn’t vaccinate his children. Having put himself in the role of a leader, he now claims that no one followed?

    He was a mediocre scientist. Now he’s even less.

    Like

  15. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 17, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    Dr. Fitzpatrick not only challenged Mr. Wakefield to a debate in the past, he’s accepted Mr. Wakefield’s challenge now. How did Mr. Wakefield respond? By changing the terms.

    Andrew Wakefield stated at first:

    “The more light that shone on this subject by way of informed, balanced debate, the better. I am offering to debate any serious challenger on MMR vaccine safety and the role of MMR in autism, live, in public, and televised.”

    Then Dr. Fitzpatrick’s article ends:

    “As both a GP and a parent of an autistic son who had followed the destructive consequences of Wakefield’s campaign over the past 15 years, I for one would welcome the opportunity to challenge his baleful influence. Are you ready for a debate now, Andrew Wakefield?”

    It was after this that Andrew Wakefield changed the terms of his debate offer to focus on David Salisbury. As I said already, his bluff was called so he moved the goalposts.

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  16. Chris
    April 17, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Michael:

    So debate him now Chris. Lawrence? You’d be shredded to pieces

    Answer my question. That would give support to Wakefield’s “research.” Otherwise we will continue to assume based on the available data, including the GMC proceedings, that Wakefield is a fraud. One cannot conduct a honest debate with someone who is a fraud.

    Like

  17. Zhe
    April 18, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    Looks like Dr. Wakfield had the support of many scientists and docs when this all came out….I’m sure they are all off their rockers though huh?

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/04/statement-isabella-thomas-mother-of-2-lancet-study-children.html

    Like

  18. Chris
    April 18, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    Zhe, in 2004 ten of the twelve authors retracted from that paper.

    Why don’t you ask Mrs. Thomas for the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers dated before 1990 showing that the 1971 introduction of an MMR vaccine in the USA caused a similar increase in autism. If the MMR caused more autism in less than a decade of use in the UK, there would have been noticed even more for the almost twenty years of use in a much larger country.

    Like

  19. April 19, 2013 at 3:28 am

    Testing for vaccine safety has not been a priority for vaccine implementers. Parents need to know that no one has ever investigated the impact of multiple vaccines given to children. Policy makers are highly influenced by a variety of factors, but the life-long health and safety of the individual child is not high on their list of priorities. It takes a great deal of BLIND faith to follow the recommendations of these highly educated policy makers. Parents, please investigate this issue seriously. Take time to get the facts. Don’t inflict a life-long illness on your child through a fear of a normal short-term childhood illness.

    Like

  20. Lara Lohne
    April 19, 2013 at 4:59 am

    http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx

    You have a citation, I assume, to show that vaccination is more dangerous then the diseases they can prevent, correct? If you don’t perhaps you are mistaken in your assertion because if you check the link above, this is a report of a safety study of the current childhood vaccine schedule released just a few months ago so I would say you are very much mistaken that a safety study on the vaccine schedule has not been done.

    Speaking as a parent and as a person who grew up anti vaccine and suffered through these ‘short term’ childhood diseases (one which left me with permanent damage, so really not short term in that regard) I did the research regarding vaccinations, their implementation and the diseases they can prevent prior to giving birth to my first child. From everything I read, vaccination is by far the safer route.

    Out of curiosity, what life long illness are you suggesting one can get from following the vaccine schedule as recommended?

    Like

  21. April 19, 2013 at 5:39 am

    @Noti – don’t inflict life-long ailments / disabilities on your child (like deafness, blindness, sterility, encephalitis, or congenital rubella) by avoiding extremely safe and effective pediatric vaccines.

    Like

  22. April 19, 2013 at 5:53 am

    Wow – I hope that made sense (very early here) – you know, doing a take on noti’s nonesense……

    Like

  23. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 9:41 am

    notildlechatter:

    Parents need to know that no one has ever investigated the impact of multiple vaccines given to children.

    So how are the few antigens in vaccines a greater risk than the antigens you encounter every day in the environment, and the very real diseases? Do post those citations, because we cannot accept argument from blatant assertion.

    Also, the MMR vaccine has been used since 1971 in the USA. Certainly in over forty years of use there has been sufficient study as to is safety and effectiveness. Since at least 10% of those coming down with measles now in Wales need hospitalization, you should tell us exactly how one out of ten MMR doses requires acute medical care. I’d really love to see that citation.

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  24. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 10:29 am

    notidlechatter, there is now one possible death from measles in Wales:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22215185

    Do hurry up with those citations. And remember no videos, random websites, or news articles, just the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed studies showing the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

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  25. Katlyn
    April 19, 2013 at 11:24 am

    If you are truly interested in studies and facts there is great great book that cites over 1,000 studies that have all been published etc. The Vaccine Safety Manual.
    As a concerned parent who has taken a great amount of time researching and seeking out info, when i see things ilke “Measles cannot be taken lightly because you can never tell who will go on to develop the more serious complications of pneumonia or encephalitis (inflammation of the brain).” It just seems like a load of crap since vaccines themselves WILL cause inflammation in the brain and elsewhere – vaccine injury occurs when the body is unable to cope with the vaccine (unnatural) induced inflammation. The truth is the majority of people will be able to come through measles fine! It used to be considered a common childhood illness like the chicken pox! but even now kids aren’t allowed to get the chicken pox…

    To me allowing the body to handle illness in it’s own natural way, when supported by good nutrition and perhaps homeopathy, is always best!! If that’s not enough that’s what the wonders of the medical field are for. In addition when a person catches the measles and fights it off they then have a life long immunity which is not the case when vaccinated – there are booster shots required in order to maintain immunity.

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  26. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Katlyn:

    If you are truly interested in studies and facts there is great great book that cites over 1,000 studies that have all been published etc. The Vaccine Safety Manual.

    Then pick up your copy of that book, open it up and then provide us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Make sure that it clearly shows the vaccine does “cause inflammation in the brain and elsewhere – vaccine injury occurs when the body is unable to cope with the vaccine (unnatural) induced inflammation” much more often than actually getting measles.

    The truth is the majority of people will be able to come through measles fine! It used to be considered a common childhood illness like the chicken pox!

    Do tell us how that worked out for Roald Dahl’s oldest child. And for the between four hundred and six hundred who died from measles before the 1960s (see the CDC Pink Book Appendix G tables).

    Like

  27. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 11:48 am

    Here is some of the data from the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:

    Disease: Measles in the USA
    Year__Cases____Deaths
    1950__319,124__468
    1951__530,118__683
    1952__683,077__618
    1953__449,146__462
    1954__682,720__518
    1955__555,156__345
    1956__611,936__530
    1957__486,799__389
    1958__763,094__552
    1959__406,162__385
    1960__441,703__380
    1961__423,919__434
    1962__481,530__408
    1963__385,156__364
    (^^ first vaccine licensed)
    1964__458,083__421
    1965__261,905__276
    1966__204,136__261
    1967___62,705___81
    1968___22,231___24
    1969___25,826___41
    1970___47,351___89
    1971___75,290___90
    (^^^ MMR licensed)
    1972___32,275___24
    1973___26,690___23
    1974___22,690___20
    1975___24,374___20
    1976___41,126___12
    1977___57,245___15
    1978___26,871___11

    Now, Katlyn and notidlechatter, come back and tell us exactly how measles is just a mild childhood disease with real citations. Not videos, not books, not random websites, not news stories… but actual verifiable scientific literature.

    Like

  28. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    It has been confirmed, the young man in Swansea did die from measles:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22215185

    Now, Katlyn and notidlechatter, please come up with those proper scientific citations telling us that measles is just part of growing up and it is okay dokay for more than 10% to get hospital care, and the MMR vaccine is much more dangerous. Remember that scientific citations do not include books written by directors of anti-science organizations like “Think Twice.”

    Like

  29. Katlyn
    April 19, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    Just thought you might be interested in the book – it is not an anti-vaccine book it simply states information on each illness and studies that show the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines! Not trying to get into an argument with random people on here just wanted to put the information out there for anyone interested. It’s every parents responsability to decide what is best for their child – i know this book is one source that has helped me do that and maybe it can help other parents feel better equipped with facts too!

    Like

  30. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 12:17 pm

    Sorry, Katlyn, but Neil Z. Miller is very much anti-vaccine. He is not a scientist, yet he published a paper with Gary Goldman who is also not a scientist (PhD in computer science) that had very bad statistics with lots of cherry picking. They even forgot to state their conflict of interests. I am familiar with that book, and it has nothing to do with real science.

    If you don’t want to get into an argument, then don’t make claims without providing proper evidence. Measles is a dangerous disease, and has put almost a hundred kids in the hospital and killed a young man in Wales.

    Of course it is a parent’s responsibility to decide what is best for their child. It must be made using real scientific evidence, not blatant assertions without evidence. The former is available in many public health sites (like the CDC and your local county public health department)… the latter is what you and Mr. Miller are doing.

    Like

  31. April 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    @Katlyn – people can & do die, around the world, in fairly significant numbers (still) of vaccine-preventable diseases. This is a fact – what is also a fact is Congenital Rubella was responsible (in the last major outbreak in the 1960s) for the deaths of over 10,000 babies….not to even mention that childhood deafness and blindness have almost been eliminated because of the prevention of measles & mumps.

    These are facts – all the antivax crowd has is assertions and suppositions – no real evidence.

    Get some, then come back.

    Like

  32. Tom
    April 19, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    I agree with Kaitlyn. Neil Miller’s books are great, with hundreds of citations of scientific studies proving the damage often caused by every vaccine. Every parent should read one of his books before making the vaccine decision. Gareth Williams, 25 years old, is said to have been the first person to die in this measles outbreak in Wales. Measles is mildest in children between two and twelve, more severe in adults. It was better the way it used to be, when something like 98% of children got measles in the least severe age range, the way I and everyone I knew did. Dr. Wakefield is right about the MMR often causing autism and/or bowel disease, and parents must be aware of that, and factor it into their vaccine decision. Yes, measles can sometimes kill or disable, but not often, and the permanent disability often caused by the vaccine is much scarier, in my estimation. I’d also love to see one or all of you debate Dr. Wakefield.

    Like

  33. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    I have a message that disappeared. But it is worth saying that measles had disappeared in the UK during the mid-1990s. It was only after Wakefield claims about MMR (a vaccine that had been used in the USA for over twenty years), that vaccination declined and measles returned.

    Now measles is endemic in the UK, with almost a thousand cases, a hundred in hospital and a death that may be from measles. So, Tom, it is up to you to produce the verifiable scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. For the record, measles does cause deafness, blindness, and other permanent disabilities at about one in a thousand to two thousand cases. So, you really need to support your claims.

    Like

  34. novalox
    April 19, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    @tom

    [citation needed]

    Like

  35. April 19, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    @Tom – yeah, when 98% of children got the measles & a significant number suffered the very well known side-effects, such as secondary infections, blindness, deafness or encephalitis – in as many as 1 in 1000 individuals, not to mention those that did in fact die.

    So, in your mind, those are “acceptable losses?”

    Like

  36. Compassion - phooey
    April 19, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    ” It was better the way it used to be, when something like 98% of children got measles in the least severe age range, the way I and everyone I knew did”

    Absolutely. Far too many people act like keeping children healthy and alive is the most important factor in deciding whether to get kids vaccinated – but what about all the money that is lost by the companies that make a living off the deaths and disability that measles used to and (Wakefield willing) soon will again bring to our grateful world.

    Like

  37. April 19, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    @CP – actually, I’m sure it is mostly to do with all of those parents that own stock in Hospitals and Health Care Centers, who stand to make a hefty profit treating the infected….because everyone knows that treatment is much more profitable than prevention.

    Like

  38. dingo199
    April 19, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    Where will measles be tomorrow?

    London.
    Vax rates there are still around 80%.
    It’s a ticking time bomb.

    Like

  39. dingo199
    April 19, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    ” It was better the way it used to be, when something like 98% of children got measles in the least severe age range, the way I and everyone I knew did”

    Absolutely, Tom, I quite agree.
    It was so, so much better back in the 1960s when kids all got measles, and around 100 of them died each year, and around 400 got measles encephalitis. And that’s just England and Wales – you can add on an extra 20 deaths per year in Scotland.

    Are you some kind of child hater?

    Like

  40. Zhe
    April 19, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    Chris,
    “I have a message that disappeared. But it is worth saying that measles had disappeared in the UK during the mid-1990s. It was only after Wakefield claims about MMR (a vaccine that had been used in the USA for over twenty years), that vaccination declined and measles returned.
    Now measles is endemic in the UK, with almost a thousand cases, a hundred in hospital and a death that may be from measles. So, Tom, it is up to you to produce the verifiable scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. For the record, measles does cause deafness, blindness, and other permanent disabilities at about one in a thousand to two thousand cases. So, you really need to support your claims.”

    Correlation = causation now Chris?? Glad you agree, so there is connection between vaccines and autism based on all of the parent’s reports. Thank you!

    Like

  41. April 19, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    @Zhe – there is actual scientific proof and evidence that a decrease in vaccine coverage = an increase in disease (among the susceptible population). Care to show us the evidence that vaccines are linked to autism?

    Not to mention the fact that Wakefield admitted that his actions resulted in a decrease in vaccine coverage too….you know, evidence is a funny thing – and you don’t have any.

    Like

  42. Zhe
    April 19, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Please Lawrence, evidence is a funny thing, where is yours? Please prove Chris’ assertion above. I’ll wait for your proof.

    Like

  43. April 19, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    @Zhe – so much evidence is available, so which one of Chris’ scientifically-backed claims do you need evidence for? Because PubMed & the CDC Pink Book are wonderful things….

    Or are you just denying that there is a measles epidemic in the UK right now?

    Like

  44. novalox
    April 19, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    @zhe

    You brought the assertion, it’s your job to provide the proof.

    So again, [citation needed] in three of your posts, or you admit that you have no evidence for your position.

    Like

  45. Zhe
    April 19, 2013 at 8:20 pm

    “I have a message that disappeared. But it is worth saying that measles had disappeared in the UK during the mid-1990s. It was only after Wakefield claims about MMR (a vaccine that had been used in the USA for over twenty years), that vaccination declined and measles returned.
    Now measles is endemic in the UK, with almost a thousand cases, a hundred in hospital and a death that may be from measles. So, Tom, it is up to you to produce the verifiable scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. For the record, measles does cause deafness, blindness, and other permanent disabilities at about one in a thousand to two thousand cases. So, you really need to support your claims.”

    Correlation = causation now? Prove it!

    Like

  46. April 19, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    @Zhe – prove “history?” Are you insane?

    Like

  47. April 19, 2013 at 8:46 pm
  48. Chris
    April 19, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    zhe:

    Correlation = causation now Chris?? Glad you agree, so there is connection between vaccines and autism based on all of the parent’s reports. Thank you!

    What are you talking about. Are you denying that actually getting measles causes disabilities? Or even deaths? Did you miss the CDC Pink Book Appendix G data I posted in comment #27?

    Okay here is some reading for you:
    The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review

    Now you post the paper that supports your assertions that the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

    Like

  49. Chris
  50. novalox
    April 19, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    @zhe

    Strike 1

    Like

  51. Chris
    April 20, 2013 at 2:14 am

    zhe, where are those citations dated before 1990 showing an increase in autism for the almost two decades of MMR use in the USA starting in 1971? It is odd that some version of the MMR would cause a sharp increase in autism in the UK in less than a decade, but no one can produce papers showing a similar affect in twice the time and several times the population in the USA. Why is that?

    Like

  52. dingo199
    April 20, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Chris : Okay here is some reading for you:
    The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review

    Thanks Chris.
    Revealing, like this:
    “Postinfectious encephalomyelitis (PIE) occurs in 13 per 1000 infected persons, usually 3–10 days after onset of rash [39, 131].”
    I had been citing a rate of 1 per 1000 for encephalitis. I see it is over 10 times more common, if you include PIE.

    Like

  53. Coren
  54. April 21, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    @Coren – and your proof that vaccines cause autism is what, exactly?

    Like

  55. Chris
    April 21, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Coren, please provide the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers dated prior to 1990 that there was a large increase in autism in the almost twenty years after the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine in the USA, a country much larger than the UK.

    It is odd that is was only noticed in the UK in less than ten years after 1988, a much smaller country. Why is that? Surely, if there was a real connection it would have been noticed much sooner in a larger country and longer time span.

    Like

  56. Coren
    April 21, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    If you can argue with the numbers presented on Gaia Health’s article please do.

    Lawrence, what does cause autism? Please enlighten us.

    Like

  57. Coren
    April 21, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    Chris, it’s not just about the MMR vaccine, that is where you are mistaken. It’s all vaccine’s, and other toxins.

    Like

  58. novalox
    April 21, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    @coren

    [citation needed], since gaia is not a reliable source. You made the assertion, you provide actual scientific sources.

    Also, do you know the phrase “the dose is the poison”?

    Like

  59. Matt Carey
    April 22, 2013 at 1:31 am

    The Gaia article is seriously flawed.

    First off, the title. Number of cases of autism compared to measles risk. Since the MMR doesn’t increase autism risk it is an apple to oranges comparison. If you are unaware of the multiple studies which show this, why are you spreading misinformation out of ignorance? If you deny these studies for some reason, it is even worse.

    ” so far, it appears that only vaccinated children suffer from the disease.”

    Autism isn’t a disease. That stated, anyone who propagated the idea that autism is only found in the vaccinated population is either lying or has done little work to check the facts. A study presented at IMFAR a few years ago discussed the result that the autism rate appeared lower in the vaccinated population–appeared so because there were a number of unvaccinated autistics in their sample who were younger siblings of autistic children. I.e. because a fraction of autism parents stop vaccinating, and the recurrence risk of autism is about 20%, it appears like the risk of autism is lowered by vaccination. This is a major confound.

    Death risk from measles is about 1 in 2000. This from recent outbreaks in Japan and France. Countries with good medical care and sanitation. People who wish to deny the real risks of measles (which also includes permanent injury and spontaneous abortions) are speaking from ignorance and bias.

    Any site that states “the only credible reason for SIDS is vaccinations” has an incredible definition of credible.

    Like

  60. Matt Carey
    April 22, 2013 at 1:40 am

    “what does cause autism”

    Something other than the MMR vaccine (or thimerosal in vaccines).

    Like

  61. Matt Carey
    April 22, 2013 at 1:47 am

    “what does cause autism”

    One cause is congenital rubella syndrome. Yes, the same rubella as in the R in MMR. If a pregnant woman contracts rubella, the odds are high that her child will either spontaneously abort or be born with disabilities. These disabilities include autism. With severe to profound intellectual disability in many cases.

    A recent study estimated how many cases of autism have been prevented in the past decade due to the MMR.

    Yes, one way to prevent autism is by vaccination to reduce outbreaks of rubella.

    Like

  62. Chris
    April 22, 2013 at 2:41 am

    Coren:

    If you can argue with the numbers presented on Gaia Health’s article please do.

    What numbers? She references some news articles and a page titled A Century of Home Ownership and Renting in England and Wales statistics (seriously, that is what the title of that page is!), plus unreferenced numbers from random websites. I do not see any studies, or census reports on measles and autism. Home ownership and renting, really?

    Ms. Heidi Stevenson is a homeopath, and since she believes that the more you dilute a remedy the stronger it gets, we can assume she had no relationship with reality. As far as we know in her reality the sicker a kid gets the healthier he/she is! Wait, was she trying to actually make a connection to whether who owned or rented a home?

    Like

  63. dingo199
    April 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The only “numbers” I can find on Heidi Stevenson’s site are those where she magics up a false analogy comparing the cases of measles with the number of autistic children she says will occur through vaccination.

    if we refer to the conservative figure of 630,000 new children who are vaccinated each year, that brings the number of newly-autistic children to about 12,600!

    Now do you see the problem? She is assuming, with zero evidence for her claim, that ALL cases of autism are due to vaccinations, and that 2% of vaccinations will result in autism.

    Does this explain the well documented numerous instances of autism in unvaccinated kids? No. Does it explain why the Amish (who she refers to, and who have a vaccination uptake of around 50%) have no autism? (logic states that 1% of them should be autistic, or 1 in 100! – Gosh, a veritable autism tsunami is taking place in the Amish! How awful! Where is it Heidi, and why has it been covered up?)

    Like

  64. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    Correlation = causation now Chris?? Glad you agree, so there is connection between vaccines and autism based on all of the parent’s reports. Thank you!

    Pretty much a playground taunt, isn’t this?

    Andrew Wakefield accepted that his efforts resulted in reduced vaccine uptake in the UK. It’s in the GMC hearing transcripts. Here is what his attorney had to say:

    “Dr Wakefield was, as you know, a senior author of the Lancet paper, and publication of the paper, together with the commentary and the observations that he made at the press briefing, has led on the evidence that you have received to a downturn, or at least did turn to a downturn, in vaccination rates for the MMR vaccine. That is a fact. And it is a fact, even though Dr Wakefield may have been justified in publishing the paper; even though he held honest views about the safety of the MMR vaccine, and even though he advocated the use of a single vaccine. The fact of the linkage between the paper and the press briefing and the downturn is a fact, and it is not difficult to imagine that in some quarters he would be heavily criticised for that fact.”

    I find myself in this position agreeing with Mr. Wakefield and his attorney. His efforts caused a downturn in vaccination rates for the MMR vaccine.

    Like

  65. Belle
    April 22, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Chris,
    So ten of the twelve authors of the Lancet case study recanted? And you think that shows that they realized the error of their ways? You don’t think they may have been threatened with having their licenses revoked, the way their more courageous colleagues’ were, and their livings ruined if they didn’t play along with pharmaceutical interests? They accurately recorded the children’s normal development (or delayed in a few cases, but within the normal range), and their devastating regression into autism and/or bowel disease within days or weeks of the MMR. So what was there to recant? Did any of them say, Oh, no, it turns out that he had autism six months BEFORE he got the MMR! My bad! The answer is that no, they didn’t. They recanted for fear of reprisals, and as we all saw in the public drawing and quartering of Dr. Wakefield two years ago, their fear was certainly justified.

    Like

  66. Belle
    April 22, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Compassion phooey,
    What a good name for you! You care nothing at all about the children whose lives are ruined by vaccine damage, whether from the MMjR or any other vaccine. I stand by the conviction shared by many of us here that natural measles is far less damaging than the measles vaccine or the MMR. Many of us live by our belief that nutritious food, extended breastfeeding, and avoidance to the maximum degree possible of drugs, antibiotics, and vaccines are the best way to create children with healthy, intact immune systems, who can easily weather and overcome natural measles and gain permanent immunity and a stronger immune system to face future threats.

    Like

  67. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Belle :They accurately recorded the children’s normal development (or delayed in a few cases, but within the normal range), and their devastating regression into autism and/or bowel disease within days or weeks of the MMR. So what was there to recant? Did any of them say, Oh, no, it turns out that he had autism six months BEFORE he got the MMR! My bad! The answer is that no, they didn’t. They recanted for fear of reprisals, and as we all saw in the public drawing and quartering of Dr. Wakefield two years ago, their fear was certainly justified.

    I take it you have not read the GMC transcripts. It is very clear that at least some of the Lancet 12 were anything but “within the normal range”.

    Also, the idea that it was “Days or weeks” before the parents first reported symptoms of autism is not accurate.

    Did they say say “My Bad”? No. Did they point out that Andrew Wakefield’s theory was wrong? Yes. Prof. Walker-Smith made this very clear through his attorney at the appeal of his GMC decision.

    Prof. Walker-Smith is retired now and can’t lose his license or face any liability. Can you find a statement by him where he says “I was pressured to recant” or “Wakefield was right”? If so, I’d like to see a link as I’ve never seen it.

    Like

  68. Belle
    April 22, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    Dingo,
    Are you a chlld hater? From school nurse Patti White’s congressional testimony. Do you think she hates children?
    “Our own school district’s confidential health statistics show at least 20% of our children (K-3) have significant neurological damage and/or chronic illness. The last three years have shown an acceleration in the numbers of children who are entering our schools with these “developmental disorders”. (Could these be the same infants who received the first trial doses of hepatitis B as only a few hour-old newborns?) As school nurses, working with these damaged children on a daily basis, we pray this is not true. If it is, the ramification to this generation of children is unthinkable!

    Like

  69. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    Belle I stand by the conviction shared by many of us here that natural measles is far less damaging than the measles vaccine or the MMR. Many of us live by our belief that nutritious food, extended breastfeeding, and avoidance to the maximum degree possible of drugs, antibiotics, and vaccines are the best way to create children with healthy, intact immune systems, who can easily weather and overcome natural measles and gain permanent immunity and a stronger immune system to face future threats.

    It’s fine to have convictions. As in strong beliefs. You hold strong convictions in the face of strong evidence to the contrary, however. People have looked, hard, to see if there is an increased risk of autism from MMR. There is no increased risk by any of these measures. Mr. Wakefield’s hypothesis doesn’t work biologically, again demonstrated by studies (Hornig et. al, PLoS ONE).

    On the other hand, people in developed nations–France and Japan–have died in recent years from the measles. At a rate of about 1 in 2000 reported infections. More are injured. More are hospitalized. Some may develop SSPE and die years from now.

    There is no comparison of risk of autism from MMR and the risk from the measles.

    As the saying goes, you have the right to your own beliefs. You do not have the right to your own facts. In this case it is not a discussion of whose beliefs are more accurate. It is a discussion of beliefs vs facts.

    Like

  70. April 22, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    @Belle – I had a comment that got eaten by the filter (a couple of times).

    Snapshot:

    We are mainstreaming more children than we did in the past.

    Whole institutions were dedicated in the past (Schools of the Deaf and Blind) to children who suffered the after-effects of VPDs – we don’t need them now, because of vaccinations.

    These are facts, you should get some.

    Like

  71. Jeff
    April 22, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Sullivan, If you can’t figure out what causes autsim, than how are you going to disprove a connection between vaccines and autism?

    Like

  72. Lara Lohne
    April 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Jeff,

    The idea behind science is to com up with a hypothesis and try to disprove (not prove) that hypothesis. The vaccine autism causation hypothesis has been disproven, spectacularly so. So now that we know vaccines are not involved, we look to other potentialities, like genetics, etc.

    Like

  73. April 22, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    @Jeff – because of all of the research that has been done, because of the original hypothesis. In fact, because of that, it is very safe to say that the vaccine / autism link is a myth and has no scientific basis in fact.

    Like

  74. novalox
    April 22, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    @belle

    [citation needed]

    Like

  75. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Jeff :Sullivan, If you can’t figure out what causes autsim, than how are you going to disprove a connection between vaccines and autism?

    The long version of this reply hasn’t appeared, so here’s a short version.

    We don’t have to know what causes autism to know what doesn’t. We don’t know for most people why they are autistic, but we know that it wasn’t “cold” or “refrigerator” mothers. At least, I’m good with dumping that idea on the trash heap of history.

    People have looked at the main ideas of vaccines causing autism. Repeatedly and hard. MMR does not increase the risk of autism. Thimerosal does not increase the risk of autism. Andrew Wakefield’s hypothesis of MMR and autism is not confirmed biologically.

    We have limited time and resources. We spent a good part of the last decade looking at vaccines. Let’s look somewhere with a better chance of succcess.

    Like

  76. April 22, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    @Matt – agreed, we’ve been looking at this for well over a decade now & no evidence has surfaced regarding a connection between Autism & vaccines….it is now time to look at more promising areas of research.

    Like

  77. Jeff
    April 22, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    Well guys, I happen to disagree, if you don’t understand what autism is, there isn’t any way to disprove what causes it. I do believe it is genetic in combination with environmental factors.

    Like

  78. April 22, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    @Jeff – so what biological mechanism, that hasn’t already been researched, do you believe leads to a link between vaccines & autism?

    And which autism – DSM-III, DSM-IV or DSM-V?

    Like

  79. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Jeff :Well guys, I happen to disagree, if you don’t understand what autism is, there isn’t any way to disprove what causes it. I do believe it is genetic in combination with environmental factors.

    So, we haven’t disproved Bettleheim’s refrigerator mother theory? It’s still on the table until such time as we have all mechanisms by which autism develops?

    We do this all the time in science–eliminate false hypotheses on the way to finding the correct idea. For example, there was a time when it was very clear that the sun could not work by chemical burning. Just not enough fuel for it to last as long as it has. We didn’t have to wait until someone worked out what nuclear fusion is.

    Copernicus figured out that the wasn’t the center of the universe. He did this before we understood about gravity causing the earth to orbit the sun.

    The question of whether MMR increases autism risk is one that can be and has been tested. They compared kids who had an kids who didn’t have MMR and found the same rate of autism.

    Like

  80. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    Jeff :Well guys, I happen to disagree, if you don’t understand what autism is, there isn’t any way to disprove what causes it. I do believe it is genetic in combination with environmental factors.

    Just to add, by this logic, a “vaccinated/unvaccinated” study would be worthless. We wouldn’t know what autism is, we would just know the relative risk of vaccination. By this argument, there is no point in epidemiology for autism. By this logic we need to get a biological understanding of what autism is, then start looking for the causes. This logic doesn’t work.

    Like

  81. Jeff
    April 22, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Matt, somebody mentioned above, this isn’t only about the MMR vaccine. If you compare MMR vaccinated kids and those who didn’t get the MMR vaccine but had other vaccines it would be the same difference in my opinion.
    Please compare non vaccinated kids against vaccinated kids and see how many have autism from each group.

    Your examples provided above could just be blind luck, There are also examples of people who hypothesized and turned out to be flat wrong after science caught up. Some guess right and others don’t.

    “By this logic we need to get a biological understanding of what autism is, then start looking for the causes. This logic doesn’t work.”

    Why is that? For example, if unvaccinated kids had no autism and it was determined that only vaccinated kids did, wouldn’t that be enough information to stop vaccinating until it was figured out? Think about the health of all of those children you would save until we knew what was going on.

    Like

  82. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Copernicus figuring out the sun was the center of our solar system was “blind luck”?

    “There are also examples of people who hypothesized and turned out to be flat wrong after science caught up.” Andrew Wakefield, for one.

    Your logic is we can’t understand what causes autism until we understand what autism is. You are asking for a double standard–you can discount results which are against your beliefs (vaccines cause autism) while disregarding this same logic when you ask for a study which you think would support your views (vaccinated vs. unvaccinated).

    “Think about the health of all of those children you would save until we knew what was going on”

    Do you have a sense of irony? Here we have a discussion about the health of children being endagered in the UK because 20% of the population decided to stop vaccinating. Measles injures and it kills. Think about the health of those children? Absolutely. Measles is impinging on their health.

    The fact is, unvaccinated kids have autism. If you’ve heard otherwise, that person was wrong. There is a well known proponent of the idea that vaccines cause autism who has an unvaccinated kid. So, your premise being wrong, there is no reason to stop vaccinating.

    Like

  83. Lawrence
    April 22, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @jeff – population studies have been done. Retrospective studies that show vaccination status did not matter to the overall autism rate…you call that “luck?”

    Like

  84. Jeff
    April 22, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    The % of kids with autism who were NOT vaccinated is a very, very. very small fraction and more than likely is 100% genetic and not the regressive kind of autism brought on by genetics and environmental toxins which is the majority of autsim diagnosis’ these days.

    Like

  85. Lawrence
    April 22, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    @jeff – citations for your “evidence”

    Like

  86. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 22, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    Jeff :The % of kids with autism who were NOT vaccinated is a very, very. very small fraction and more than likely is 100% genetic and not the regressive kind of autism brought on by genetics and environmental toxins which is the majority of autsim diagnosis’ these days.

    The percent of children who are not vaccinated is very small. The question posed is whether the prevalence is the same in the unvaccinated population. Apparently you already know the answer. Would you be so kind to provide the source for that?

    You have already decided that the only environmental risk factor is autism by stating that it is 100% genetic. Again, would you care to share how you came to that conclusion?

    You state that the majority of autism diagnoses these days is “the regressive kind”. Estimates are that regressive autism represents about 20% (very roughly) of the population, and the estimates are that this hasn’t changed dramatically over the past few decades.

    Also, keep in mind that “regression” does not necessarily mean “non autistic becomes autistic”. An autistic who loses skills has undergone a regression.

    If there is an epidemic of autism brought on by vaccines resulting in autistic regression, almost all of current autism should be regressive. Again, this is not the case.

    Like

  87. Chris
    April 22, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    Jeff, Kim Stagliano’s youngest daughter is severely autistic, and has never been vaccinated. Perhaps there are fewer because in the USA most kids are vaccinated (even a good fraction of the Amish).

    Jeff, can you tell us how the MMR vaccine caused enough autism in the UK that it was noticed in less than a decade (1988-1998), but that effect was not noticed in over twenty years of use in the USA, a much larger country, after it was introduced there in 1971? Why would it happen only after 1988, and not after 1978 when the MMR vaccine was the preferred vaccine for the American Measles Elimination Program?

    Like

  88. April 22, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    @Jeff – here is a thought exercise for you:

    If 1 out of Population A of 100 people is autistic & and 10 out of Population B of 1000 people are autistic, would you say the rate between the two populations is the same?

    That’s what they have found in retrospective population studies – that, using statistics, the “prevalence” of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are the same – even if there is a huge discrepancy in population size, we can easily see that the rates in the two populations are the same….

    Your hypothesis was disproven awhile ago.

    Like

  89. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 9:36 am

    Well there is evidence that vaccines have caused autism. You can read it right here is the DTap tripedia:

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf

    We also know there have been compensations awarded to MMR vaccine damaged children as well.

    There are components in these vaccines that are causing, contributing, triggering; whatever you want to call it; neurological problems in children. The inserts states hypersensitivity to any component in the vaccine is a contraindication. How do they know if the recipient is hyper sensitive to any components if they have never been tested for sensitivity?

    Most inserts also state that vaccines have NOT been tested for their carcinogenic or mutagenic potentials Or impairment of Infertility. (straight from the above insert)

    As I have said before, the science of vaccines have been muddied by big business and the billions of dollars it generates. The studies are not reliable due to big pharma influence, scientists are threatened if the desired outcomes are not achieved. If you are willing to outright deny this then I question your motives, because outright denial screams there is some benefit to your arguments.

    Science is wrong everyday. New studies come out every single day that cancel out or disprove previous research, but not with vaccines. ALL the vaccine science is infallible! Never wrong, never ever ever!

    The FDA approves lethal drugs and medical treatments all the time. This is a fact, proven by years of recalled drugs and treatments.

    What do you think the ramifications would be if the government said, you know what… We have some new studies that prove vaccines cause brain damage? (label it what you will)

    People might start questioning everything the government recommends… We can’t have that now, can we?

    Like

  90. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:10 am

    My3sons, what about the other two brands of DTaP? And what does thimerosal have to with the MMR vaccine and measles?

    Like

  91. April 23, 2013 at 10:22 am

    @My3Sons – your constant harping against vaccines leads me to believe that you have ulterior motives, most likely you own stock or are being paid by doctors and/or hospital organizations that will hugely profit from treating the results of an increase in childhood vaccine-preventable diseases…..feel free to prove me wrong.

    Like

  92. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:23 am

    I guess this bears repeating:

    The FDA page on thimerosal that My3sons posted shows that each vaccine on the American pediatric schedule comes in a thimerosal free version, including two out of the three brands of DTaP, and four of the influenza vaccines. The MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal.

    Also, yes, there have been awards in a legal court over vaccine injuries where the evidence is not very rigorous, but it has nothing to do with the science. In fact, if you go the NVICP statistics page, http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html , you will see a total number of awards given over more than twenty years to total only 3217. Now contrast that to the fact that about four million children are born in the USA each year, so at least six million doses of MMR are given each year (almost two doses per child, I am underestimating). How does that compare?

    The real issue is that there about about a thousand cases of measles in Wales, with at least 10% requiring hospitalization and possibly one death. So the real question that I have asked many times is where is the scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine, which has been in use for over forty years, is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

    Like

  93. April 23, 2013 at 10:32 am

    @My3sons – while you are typing your denial of being in the pocket of “Big Disease” I’ll address one of your other points…..you talk about vaccine studies & claims that they are “infallible” – actually, plenty of vaccine research has been proven to be bad – starting the the Wakefield Study, followed by all of the Geier research, that horrible Monkey Study, etc….I wonder why it is that anti-vaccine Science never stands up to scrutiny?

    And if you claim conspiracy – please explain how researchers across national borders, from different governments (who can’t even agree on things like immigration, trade and water rights), not to mention independent research and educational institutions, non-profits, and thousands of researchers, scientists and doctors (which probably number in the millions) can all be part of some huge conspiracy to cover up the truth?

    Vaccine research is an on-going process – and vaccines themselves are one of the most heavily regulated, researched, tracked and tested treatments in the world – that’s a fact.

    Stop listening to the anti-vaccine canards & do some real research for a change.

    Like

  94. Elisa
    April 23, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Congress does not think a vax/unvax study would be worthless, and has twice mandated that one be done. The CDC and IoM have dragged their feet and refused to do it. Quite different from not being worth doing. Dr. Sears thinks it could easily be done, blinding only the doctors who examined the children. While you people like to say that if a parent knows the child’s vaccine status, that that screws up the whole study, that that would somehow invalidate the doctor’s diagnosis of autism, asthma, or whatever in the child, make the doctor unaware of the child’s vaccine status somehow give a different diagnosis than if the parents were also unaware of the child’s vaccine status (as would be necessary in a study in which everyone were blinded, and the children randomly vaccinated or left unvaccinated). I ask the reader to decide for himself what he thinks is more rational. A vax/unvax study is the only way to decide this question, and the only reason not to do it is that everyone is aware that it would prove that vaccines cause autism and all other kinds of autoimmune disease.

    Like

  95. Terry
    April 23, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Great posts My3Sons and Jeff, keep fighting the good fight! And Chris, even if you personally saw thousands of children regress into autism immediately after the MMR (or other vaccines), you would still say it was merely coincidental and did not prove it was the vaccine that did it. The tens of thousands of parents who have seen it in their own chldren know that it was the vaccine that did it, the biochemical mechanisms for the damage have been explained scientifically to the satisfaction of hundreds of thousands, the affected parents tell their stories to everyon they know, who also see the damaged children, and that is why this fracas continues year after year. Who will win? The moneyed interests promoting vaccines or the vaccine-damaged fighting to prevent further damage? Stay tuned… And one man’s dying in Wales of measles out of a thousand is tragic for him, his family and friend’s, but the lives of those damaged or killed by vaccines lives were equally as precious, and their loss as great a tragedy. Measles does not often kill or permanently damage. The MMR often does. So we’re back to the unfortunate need to pay your money and make your choice. No guarantees either way.

    Like

  96. April 23, 2013 at 10:46 am

    @Terry – and your proof of any of your assertions are, what exactly?

    @Elisa – as for the vax / unvax study, you can’t self-select, you have to randomly pick children (at birth). Are you prepared for that, would you volunteer your child?

    Anti-vaccine folks harp on ethics, but insist on a study that violates all known medical ethics….hypocrites.

    Like

  97. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 11:06 am

    I had posted a reply to Chris, it did not post but I’m sure you have it to pst for me if need be. If not let me know, I have learned to save my comments before posting on this site due to many recent problems with posts showing up.

    Good morning Lawrence. You know even though you are always aggressive and accusatory to me, I still like you! 🙂

    Now, I suppose you could lable me anti vaccine but that’s not entirely correct. My children have had vaccines, not all, but many. I have had vaccines too. I fit more into the category of not trusting information that can and has been manipulated by government and billion dollar corporations. My doubt reaches over to many categories, not just vaccines. I just try to look at things logically and uncover what motivating factors, if any the are behind such information. That’s all.

    I’m sorry I seem to have irritated you this morning Lawrence. Let t go, it’s just my opinion and has not bearing on you what so ever. 🙂

    Like

  98. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 11:20 am

    Still not posting my reply to Chris. Wonder if this will post. Testing…

    Like

  99. April 23, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Okay – this is just annoying. Can’t figure out why I can’t post.

    Like

  100. April 23, 2013 at 11:24 am

    @My3Sons – If you did look at things logically, you’d quickly realize how absurd the “conspiracy” arguments are as well, given the number of organizations, government, and individuals that would need to involved – its very complexity shows how hollow those arguments are.

    Anti-Vax individuals start with a premise that has never been proven (vaccines cause autism) and act / speak as though it is the “gospel truth.” So all of their follow-on actions / speaking points flow from this false assumption. If you “believe” that vaccines cause autism – that is a false belief and a false opinion & I hope you don’t have a problem with me pointing that out to you.

    You can’t assume A – Z events / actions, if A itself is false (meaning that B – Z have no bearing). Therefore, you cannot assume anything past the original hypothesis (that vaccines might be related to autism) without proving that original hypothesis. The research has been done & showed no link – additional research is being done & is showing no link – population studies have been done which show the rate of autism to be identical between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups (retrospective studies).

    Studies have been done that show that neurological outcomes of children are not dependent on vaccination status.

    Studies that “supposedly” supported the anti-vaccine, including Wakefields & the Geiers were shown to be nothing more than junk science (at best) or fraudulent (at worst).

    For someone who claims to support logic and reason, you seem to have a very poor grasp of actual science and the mountains of legitimate research out there. One cannot base their entire outlook on a false premise, which is what you have done (and others as well).

    Like

  101. April 23, 2013 at 11:25 am

    @My3Sons – and my tone was not meant to be accusatory, but instead show you how easy it is to turn your own accusations / arguments around based on the profitability of treatment over prevention.

    Like

  102. Matt Carey
    April 23, 2013 at 11:29 am

    Elisa :
    Congress does not think a vax/unvax study would be worthless, and has twice mandated that one be done. The CDC and IoM have dragged their feet and refused to do it. Quite different from not being worth doing. Dr. Sears thinks it could easily be done, blinding only the doctors who examined the children. While you people like to say that if a parent knows the child’s vaccine status, that that screws up the whole study, that that would somehow invalidate the doctor’s diagnosis of autism, asthma, or whatever in the child, make the doctor unaware of the child’s vaccine status somehow give a different diagnosis than if the parents were also unaware of the child’s vaccine status (as would be necessary in a study in which everyone were blinded, and the children randomly vaccinated or left unvaccinated). I ask the reader to decide for himself what he thinks is more rational. A vax/unvax study is the only way to decide this question, and the only reason not to do it is that everyone is aware that it would prove that vaccines cause autism and all other kinds of autoimmune disease.

    Congress has not mandated a vaccinated/unvaccinated study. One member of congress has tried to introduce a bill on a couple occasions, but they did not progress to vote. You are welcome to link to the congressional record showing that the mandate has been made, but I am pretty sure it isn’t there.

    Like

  103. April 23, 2013 at 11:30 am

    @Terry – as I pointed out to My3Sons – because you cannot prove that vaccines cause autism, you cannot make any follow-on assumptions based on that false premise.

    Instead, you make light of the death of an individual from a readily-preventable disease (which we also should be able to eradicate outright, if people like you would let us), and the infection of over a 1000 people, fully 10% requiring hospitalizations.

    Again, what do you think is more profitable in this current scenario – the vaccine which would have prevented this outbreak from occurring, or the potentially millions of dollars spent to treat the infected?

    Like

  104. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 11:37 am

    Okay Lawrence, I’m a bit hurt you did not reciprocate my affection, but you always do stay on point. Lol.

    Sanofi proved their DTap vx caused autism. No? That’s what their insert said.

    To be honest I am not sure what autism is, or if it is caused by vaccines. I do believe that vaccines, food additives, and environmental toxins are attributing to developmental problems in children. The sheer number of children that are labeled ASD is astounding! Wouldn’t you agree? since you are 100% convinced vaccines have no role in this epidemic what do you think the cause is?

    Like

  105. Matt Carey
    April 23, 2013 at 11:37 am

    Terry :
    Great posts My3Sons and Jeff, keep fighting the good fight! And Chris, even if you personally saw thousands of children regress into autism immediately after the MMR (or other vaccines), you would still say it was merely coincidental and did not prove it was the vaccine that did it. The tens of thousands of parents who have seen it in their own chldren know that it was the vaccine that did it, the biochemical mechanisms for the damage have been explained scientifically to the satisfaction of hundreds of thousands, the affected parents tell their stories to everyon they know, who also see the damaged children, and that is why this fracas continues year after year. Who will win? The moneyed interests promoting vaccines or the vaccine-damaged fighting to prevent further damage? Stay tuned… And one man’s dying in Wales of measles out of a thousand is tragic for him, his family and friend’s, but the lives of those damaged or killed by vaccines lives were equally as precious, and their loss as great a tragedy. Measles does not often kill or permanently damage. The MMR often does. So we’re back to the unfortunate need to pay your money and make your choice. No guarantees either way.

    If the MMR often caused autism, epidemiological studies would have shown that.

    Billions of parents saw their children get the measles over thousands of years. They didn’t know the why part until the last century when people discovered the virus.

    Seeing is not the same as understanding. Being a parent does not make one understand everything, biological or otherwise, about one’s child.

    Like

  106. April 23, 2013 at 11:49 am

    @My3Sons – it isn’t about affection, it is about facts and evidence. The vaccine insert is required to list all side-effects that were “claimed” not proven – so you can’t use that as evidence.

    Autism is nothing more than a set of symptoms that we’ve grouped under the various DSM iterations. It isn’t a disease & it certainly does not have a single cause – but what we can say is that a lot of research has been done that shows no link between vaccination status and autism diagnosis….and I would also agree, the number of children receiving a diagnosis of autism is extremely subjective and probably very over-diagnosed at this point.

    There are also an increasing number of children that are losing their diagnosis of autism as they get older – autism is not about developmental stasis, it is about developmental delay – I known many autism therapists who see their charges make great strides and improvements over time…..this is another pointer to genetic components in the fetal brain that will ultimately be shown to be the most relevant causal factor in whether a child develops autism or not.

    Again, if you took the time to look beyond vaccines, you’d see quite a number of excellent avenues of more promising research, both in cause and treatment.

    Like

  107. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    If Sanofi had to list Autism as an adverse event, you can bet your a$$ that it was! A multiple billion $ company like Sanofi would have explored every possible avenue to NOT have to list that, but they obviously couldn’t deny it.

    Question it all! Something is going very wrong with our children, and until we get to the bottom of it, every ingested, inhaled, and injected substance given to children should be considered suspect.

    Where do I send my reply to Chris that won’t post? This is quite irritating.

    Like

  108. April 23, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    @My3sons – send it to Christine Vara (email link is located on the front page of this site).

    For any drug treatment, companies are required to list all “adverse events” that were reported, whether they were proven or not. Just like the VAERS database, all adverse events are tracked and shown, whether or not they are proven.

    And don’t you think, that if that held water at all, that the anti-vax groups would be screaming it from the mountains? Why aren’t they?

    Again, the research has been done on vaccines – for over a decade now. You want us to keep beating a dead horse and take money away from other potential causes…..when is enough, enough?

    Like

  109. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Thanks for that info Lawrence.

    I do not claim to know the answers, I do claim that science and data can and has been manipulated for decades in the medical establishment, which makes it difficult for me to know what is honest data and what data has been manipulated to prove a desired outcome.

    We need unbiased research absent of conflicts of interest. Period. This seems like a simple idea we should all be able to agree on, unless of course your livelihood relies on the current questionable setup.

    Like

  110. April 23, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    @My3sons – once again, does your livelihood rely on the return of vaccine-preventable diseases? Do you own stock in hospitals?

    If you’ve actually done the research, it is fairly easy to find the junk (and hey, turns out it is almost exclusively on the anti-vax side of the house – like Wakefield & the Geiers).

    Do you know the various COIs that Wakefield had when he did his original research?

    Here is a good summary:

    http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

    What constitutes COI in your book? And don’t play Jake Crosby’s 666 degrees of separation either…..

    Like

  111. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    My3sons, no matter how many times you give a child DTaP vaccine, it will not prevent measles. This article is about measles and the MMR vaccine.

    Also, the package insert is written by lawyers and is not science. Plus Sanofi does not make the MMR vaccine.

    Elisa: “Congress does not think a vax/unvax study would be worthless, and has twice mandated that one be done.”

    Name those congressmen, and tell me if they are lawyers or scientists. Explain to us why they would disregard the Belmont Report.

    Like

  112. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    @ Lawrence… My livelihood does not, but my children’s lives could, there is a chance they could die or be damaged. I could not live with myself if that happened.

    I find medical science fascinating. I hate that I have been forced to question vaccinations, medications, and medical procedures because of lies and manipulations by pharma, scientists, and governments. That is their fault, not mine. They made their unreliable beds, now they must suffer the ramifications.

    Like

  113. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    My3sons, if you find medical science fascinating you need to stop citing a package insert for one brand of vaccines for bacterial diseases in a discussion about an epidemic due to a virus.

    You should also be able to cite what the “lies” are from scientists. Name the scientist, cite the paper where there are lies, and then cite the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that directly refute those lies.

    Also, you should be able to give citations showing that the MMR vaccine used in the USA since 1971 has caused more harm than measles.

    Like

  114. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    My3sons :If Sanofi had to list Autism as an adverse event, you can bet your a$$ that it was! A multiple billion $ company like Sanofi would have explored every possible avenue to NOT have to list that, but they obviously couldn’t deny it.
    Question it all! Something is going very wrong with our children, and until we get to the bottom of it, every ingested, inhaled, and injected substance given to children should be considered suspect.
    Where do I send my reply to Chris that won’t post? This is quite irritating.

    Which Sanofi vaccine are you talking about?
    http://www.sanofipasteur.us/vaccines

    I looked up the insert for adacel:
    https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?doc_id=10438&image_type=product_pdf

    Daptacel
    https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?doc_id=11179&image_type=product_pdf

    Pentacel
    https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?doc_id=11169&image_type=product_pdf

    Those are the only three on that page that I see have acellular pertussis and when I do a search on the sheets I don’t see autism.

    I recall some inserts for other vaccines mentioning autism–but in the format, “other reactions have been reported”. Not “these are true, proven adverse reactions”.

    As an aside, the existence of these warnings shows that vaccine manufacturers do have liability. If they fail to adequately warn, they could face lawsuits. They tend to warn about what has been reported, even though these events are not proved.

    Like

  115. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    @ Chris… I already responded to you. I emailed it directly to their gmail address as Lawrence suggested. I will not take the time to respond again unless it’s posted.

    All the comments on the articles of this site come down to the safety, efficacy, and reliability of vaccines and their research. I have been on this site several times before and I do notice every time I jump in the comment numbers go way up. I believe my old Vetridani name has a record number of comments on a post from last year. 😉 you guys should love me! Lol.

    Like

  116. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    Just received this via email. I am about to learn about this case. Do you know anything about this Chris? *I reserve my opinion on this article one way or the other until I have looked into it further, which as of this post, I have not*

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307095/Family-win-18-year-fight-MMR-damage-son–90-000-payout-concerns-vaccine-surfaced.html

    Like

  117. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Chris :My3sons, no matter how many times you give a child DTaP vaccine, it will not prevent measles. This article is about measles and the MMR vaccine.
    Also, the package insert is written by lawyers and is not science. Plus Sanofi does not make the MMR vaccine.
    Elisa: “Congress does not think a vax/unvax study would be worthless, and has twice mandated that one be done.”
    Name those congressmen, and tell me if they are lawyers or scientists. Explain to us why they would disregard the Belmont Report.

    I believe she is referring to efforts by member of congress Maloney. She started bills twice but they have not progressed to a vote, much less been enacted.

    For example, her 2009 bill.
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d111:4:./temp/~bdKtUi:@@@X|/home/LegislativeData.php?n=BSS;c=111|

    Like

  118. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    My3sons, I emailed a comment that went missing to Ms. Vara several days ago. I have not seen a reply.

    One reason the comments go up after you post is that they are often unrelated to the topic at hand. Why would you post a comment on a bacterial vaccine with an FDA link about thimerosal on an article about a measles epidemic? That does not make any sense.

    First, the DTaP is for three bacterial diseases, while the MMR is for three viral diseases. Bacteria and viruses are in no manner the same. Second, the MMR vaccine has never contained any thimerosal. So why even mention thimerosal? Plus you have made a claim that “pharma, scientists and governments” have lied, without proof.

    If you are going to post off topic comments and make unsubstantiated claims, you will be asked for more information, and also have your errors corrected.

    Like

  119. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    My3sons :If Sanofi had to list Autism as an adverse event, you can bet your a$$ that it was! A multiple billion $ company like Sanofi would have explored every possible avenue to NOT have to list that, but they obviously couldn’t deny it.
    Question it all! Something is going very wrong with our children, and until we get to the bottom of it, every ingested, inhaled, and injected substance given to children should be considered suspect.
    Where do I send my reply to Chris that won’t post? This is quite irritating.

    What makes you assume we don’t question it all? By questioning the bad science behind the purported vaccine/autism link, I found that there was no substance. For example.

    Like

  120. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Yes, My3sons, Ms. Fletcher won her fight. The article has little to say about the science, since it was only based on the seizures starting ten days after the vaccine. There is no discussion on tests for Dravet Syndrome or other causes of seizures. What does that have to do with the MMR with Jeryl Lynn mumps component used in the USA since 1971?

    Also be reminded that in the USA in over twenty years there have been less than 3500 compensations for vaccine injury. A country where four million children are born each year, meaning several million vaccines are given each year.

    That is also not a an actual citation. Now if you have any actual science showing that the the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella then post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed paper. The Daily Mail is not indexed on PubMed.

    Like

  121. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Listen Chris, you seem intelligent. The argument is ALWAYS about trust and who deserves it. The FDA and a major vaccine manufacturer developed and approved a vaccine that they documented autism as a side effect. There are no limits to their deceit when it comes to falsifying and suppressing data when it comes to vaccines. That is why people question all vaccine efficacy. Which is why residents of Wales have eased off giving their children the MMR vx, they don’t trust the science they have been provided with anymore.

    Like

  122. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    So, we should choose those whom we trust, even if their beliefs go against fact?

    It isn’t always about trust. Some people trust Andrew Wakefield. Even though he been proven to be wrong *and* unethical.

    “Which is why residents of Wales have eased off giving their children the MMR vx, they don’t trust the science they have been provided with anymore.”

    They are lining up to get their shots now. What does that say about which “science” they don’t trust any more?

    Like

  123. April 23, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    @My3sons – the question was raised, “is the MMR Vaccine safe?” Turns out, it is safe, and much, much safer than letting wild measles run rampant, killing and maiming a lot of innocent people…..why do you feel differently?

    Like

  124. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    Let’s see what kind of adverse events crop up in the next few weeks after this mass vaccination. Oh wait, you actually need people to report those, oh well… Same vicious cycle.

    Like

  125. April 23, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    @my3sons – another good question, why, after vaccines have been in widespread use for decades, inoculating literally billions of people on this planet over time, eradicating two diseases (smallpox & rindepest) & reducing the incidence of most other vaccine-preventable diseases by well over 90% (and in the case of polio, within a hairs’ breath of eradication as well), with a proven safety record that is amongst the best of all medical interventions….do you think that vaccines are problem?

    See, we deal with facts here – actual Science. What, exactly, had led you to have a belief that vaccines are dangerous?

    Like

  126. April 23, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    @my3sons – let’s see, one person has already died, at least 100 are in the hospital, and over 1000 have been infected……even the crude smallpox vaccine had a better track record than that…..

    Are you completely unaware of the numerous surveillance and safety programs that exist, not just in the US but worldwide to track adverse reactions and the safety of vaccines?

    Like

  127. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    My3sons :Let’s see what kind of adverse events crop up in the next few weeks after this mass vaccination. Oh wait, you actually need people to report those, oh well… Same vicious cycle.

    Doesn’t even attempt to answer the clear question: what does the current behavior of the people in Wales say about which science they trust.

    The answer, clearly, is that they are rejecting the claims made by Andrew Wakefield and accept that the MMR is safe and effective.

    Like

  128. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    My3sons:

    The argument is ALWAYS about trust and who deserves it.

    No, it is about the science and the real data. If you have any real citations that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella then please present it. If you have any evidence to support your claims that scientists have lied, then please present those.

    Like

  129. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    I have just tried about four times to post some studies, and asking My3sons to prove that the authors lied. But they all went into the ether. Anyway, I’ll try again with this: did Mady Hornig lie when she tried to replicate Wakefield’s 1998 cases series that was published in the Lancet (now retracted), and did not get the same results?

    Like

  130. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    The study: PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

    Like

  131. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Wrong Sullivan – it’s called fear. Fear is sending them to get vaccinated. You think that suddenly all of those getting vaccinated did their research and decided that Wakefield was nuts? FEAR – plain and simple.

    Like

  132. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    What caused them to delay vaccines in the first place? Another type of fear?

    Which fear is supported by data?

    Like

  133. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    I really hope they fix the system here. If is a gamble whether or not a comment is posted or disappears into a void.

    Like

  134. April 23, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    @Chris – I copy my comment before hitting submit, just to be on the safe side. Sometimes I just play around with the words I used to see what might have caused the filter to kick in.

    @Mark – I would think it is a very justified fear, fear of an extremely contagious diseases that can have some very severe side-effects, including death……that’s real life, not anti-vax nonsense.

    Like

  135. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    Chris – Both types of fear are supported. It’s not an easy decision for anyone.

    Like

  136. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    Lawrence – Vaccine injuries are real life as well. It’s a fact and not nonsense.

    Like

  137. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    Nothing is posting!!!!

    Like

  138. My3sons
    April 23, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Figures! Again… Thanks for the links to the studies. I will read them with an open mind, but I’m done trying to respond. Too frustrating!

    Like

  139. April 23, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    @My3Sons – been there, done that. A few times I’ve wanted to throw my keyboard across the room…I would recommend copying your comment before posting, just to be on the safe side.

    @Mark – do vaccine injuries occur? Yes, absolutely they do. But, do they occur at the rate that anti-vax individuals claim, absolutely not. Serious reactions to vaccines occur very rarely – in as few as 1 in 1mil or 1 in 10mil cases – these are recognized.

    What does not occur as a serious vaccine reaction is autism – that link has no evidence and has never been proven.

    What is the real fact here is that serious complications related to measles are fairly common – serious in as many in 1 in 100 and death in as many as 1 in 2000 (though in Wales we are already at 1 in 1000 for deaths). Hospitalizations are running at 10% or 1 in 10, which is several magnitudes more common than any serious side effect from the vaccine.

    Deal with facts people, not anti-vaccine fantasies.

    Like

  140. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    Lawrence, my two statements are facts. Sounds like you are the one not paying any attention to those facts. Why don’t you deal with those facts and not the pro-vaccine fantasies? You just brush aside all of the vaccine injuries as if no big deal. Well, it is a big deal, and the numbers you supplied for vaccine injury are not accurate. Most vaccine injuries never get reported. Even my own father-in-law was injured by the flu vaccine, it was never reported. The Doc refused to do it, no time and the injury wasn’t serious enough for him to do so.

    Like

  141. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    Mark :Wrong Sullivan – it’s called fear. Fear is sending them to get vaccinated. You think that suddenly all of those getting vaccinated did their research and decided that Wakefield was nuts? FEAR – plain and simple.

    Interesting idea. First, let’s see, they are seeing people get sick and put into the hospital with measles. I see no problem with fearing that. Second, they see that study after study has shown Wakefield to be wrong. Third, they read about how Wakefield was unethical in his research. They chose now to protect themselves and their children.

    In the past they were made afraid of the measles vaccines by Andrew Wakefield. Without data. And they chose to reject the vaccines. That was unsubstantiated fear. Plain and simple.

    Acting out of fear is not a bad thing. If a lion was chasing your ancestor on the savannah and said ancestor had no fear, you wouldn’t be here. Unsubstantiated fear–like what Andrew Wakefield spread–that’s another thing entirely.

    Like

  142. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    “Lawrence – Vaccine injuries are real life as well. It’s a fact and not nonsense”

    True. Vaccine injuries are real. And rare. The “autism epidemic” is not a result of vaccine injury.

    Like

  143. April 23, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    @Mark – if my numbers are wrong, please show me the actual evidence to the contrary – instead, I find this to support my assertions:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    Like

  144. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    Mark :Lawrence, my two statements are facts. Sounds like you are the one not paying any attention to those facts. Why don’t you deal with those facts and not the pro-vaccine fantasies? You just brush aside all of the vaccine injuries as if no big deal. Well, it is a big deal, and the numbers you supplied for vaccine injury are not accurate. Most vaccine injuries never get reported. Even my own father-in-law was injured by the flu vaccine, it was never reported. The Doc refused to do it, no time and the injury wasn’t serious enough for him to do so.

    The idea that adverse reactions to vaccines are undereported comes up a lot. There are a few big points to make with that

    1) most adverse reactions are not injuries. (e.g. high fever, swelling, etc.)
    2) common sense tells us that most of the unreported adverse events are the minor ones. First, the minor events are going to be more common. Second, the people with more serious events will be much more likely to report them.

    Often people claim that most adverse events are not reported and expect us to assume that means that there are a huge number of serious, permanent injuries that are not reported. It instills fear, but it isn’t an accurate representation of events.

    Like

  145. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    Mark :Wrong Sullivan – it’s called fear. Fear is sending them to get vaccinated. You think that suddenly all of those getting vaccinated did their research and decided that Wakefield was nuts? FEAR – plain and simple.

    No. I think they decided Wakefield was wrong a long time ago and just never got to the doctor for the shot.

    Like

  146. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    Sullivan, glad you corrected yourself and admitted that fear was the driving force behind the mad rush to get vaccinated.Also, you have brought up autism, which I have not mentioned? Is this your conscience speaking? And btw, my father-inilaws injury was not minor. He was in the hospital for a few days and hardly knew his own name in the beginning. I worry about the long-term future affects this may have on him. Again, go ahead and make light of the non-reported vaccine injuries that the Doc wouldn’t report.

    Like

  147. April 23, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    @Mark – sorry, we’re not going to take your word for it. Individuals can make reports to VAERS – why didn’t you?

    And you did file a claim with the Vaccine Court, didn’t you?

    I would take the fear of the real, over the imagined fear of the unreal any day of the week.

    Like

  148. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    Mark :Sullivan, glad you corrected yourself and admitted that fear was the driving force behind the mad rush to get vaccinated.Also, you have brought up autism, which I have not mentioned? Is this your conscience speaking? And btw, my father-inilaws injury was not minor. He was in the hospital for a few days and hardly knew his own name in the beginning. I worry about the long-term future affects this may have on him. Again, go ahead and make light of the non-reported vaccine injuries that the Doc wouldn’t report.

    Please don’t put words in my mouth. It doesn’t help the discussion and, frankly, makes you look bad. Any reader would see clearly that I made no indication of a “mad rush”.

    People are afraid of measles. And for good reason.

    People were made afraid by Andrew Wakefield. I see you are avoiding acknowledging that point.

    We now have two slightly different versions of this alleged vaccine injury. In one telling, “The Doc refused to do it, no time and the injury wasn’t serious enough for him to do so.” in the other it is “not minor”.

    I have not yet, nor will I “make light” of anything. Again, I can and do speak for myself. It’s a bit of an obvious passive-agressive attack when you try it.

    Like

  149. April 23, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    @Matt – I get a little tired of these guys trotting out their “vaccine injury” stories with no compelling evidence or proof that the vaccine itself was related to whatever happened next…..no VAERS report or claim with the Vaccine Court.

    Very fishy.

    Like

  150. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    Mark:Lawrence – Vaccine injuries are real life as well. It’s a fact and not nonsense.

    What are the relative risks?. Provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the MMR puts 10% of recipients into the hospital. Having had a kid get seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease and end up going to the hospital in an ambulance, I really want to know how much more dangerous the MMR vaccine is compared to measles.

    That same child is permanently disabled with a speech/language disorder and some autistic type behaviors, plus has spent more than enough time in the hospital (recently for heart surgery). The hospital stays are much more stressful than having to deal with IEPs, speech therapy and his developmental issues. So tell us those relative risks with real evidence, and not just arguments from blatant assertion.

    Like

  151. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Now the example I had in the previous comment:

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.

    Like

  152. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    I tried seven times to post the title of the paper. Please fix this comment system.

    Like

  153. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    I tried an eighth time with just the title. I guess I won’t be asking for titles. Just the journal, dates and issue information.

    Like

  154. dingo199
    April 23, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    My3sons :
    If Sanofi had to list Autism as an adverse event, you can bet your a$$ that it was!

    My3sons, I see you don’t understand what “adverse events” are in the context of a research study. I do know, because I have several ongoing as I write. One of them actually includes a patient who died of a myocardial infarction after she was enrolled into the study, but before she received the study medication. This is still paradoxically counted as an adverse event, simply because it happened after “enrollment”!

    ANY event after enrollment needs to be documented as an adverse event. If one of the kids in the Sanofi studies fell off his bike and broke an arm, that is an “adverse event” and is reported as such. These adverse events do not assume causality, but if frequently reported then they might indicate something is going on in relation to giving the study drug.

    After the vaccine is released, then post-approval surveillance is carried out. Again, anything that happens is counted as an event. So if a child gets autism, this needs to be recorded. But the odds of a child NOT developing autism in the months following vaccination of thousands of kids are astronomically small. Autism is undoubtedly just part of the background noise.

    You are also quite wrong about Sanofi stating the vaccine caused autism. The only bit I can find in the documentation is this:

    Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.

    Note the bit about not being able to establish causality?
    Care to apologise for lying?
    Promise not to cite this document in the future as proof vaccines cause autism? (fat chance!)

    Like

  155. dingo199
    April 23, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    Chris :
    Mark:Lawrence – Vaccine injuries are real life as well. It’s a fact and not nonsense.
    What are the relative risks?. Provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the MMR puts 10% of recipients into the hospital.

    I guess we have the experiment unfolding before our eyes in Wales. My3sons reckons this “mass vaccination” will throw up all manner of problems. Well now….I think around 4000 have been vaccinated so far in the last few weeks. Considering how most recipients become ill after MMR we should have seen the hospitals filling up with thousands of sickly kids and teenagers with a range of disorders from asthma, diabetes, convulsions, autism, encephalitis and so on.
    Problem is, I can see no mention of them in the media, and from a recent chat to a medical colleague in Swansea it would seem the hospitals have not seen any cases.
    Only explanation I can think of is that there is a massive conspiracy taking place with GPs and the Department of Health to cover up these illnesses, and make sure none get into hospital. It must also be costing quite a packet, since the UK Govt must be paying off parents to a) make sure parents are compensated for their kid’s illnesses, b) To make sure parents let none of these kids end up in hospital, c) Handsomely compensate parents for the deaths that have happened, and d) buy their silence.
    No wonder the Govt is broke and UK is in a recession…. The costs of covering up vaccine-dealt death and destruction must be very prohibitive.

    Like

  156. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    Sullivan – I took this as admitting it was fear driven….. “Acting out of fear is not a bad thing. If a lion was chasing your ancestor on the savannah and said ancestor had no fear, you wouldn’t be here. Unsubstantiated fear–like what Andrew Wakefield spread–that’s another thing entirely.”
    If I put words in your mouth, I aplogize. If you don’t agree that is was fear driven, than you are surely mistaken.

    Like

  157. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Chris – it’s not about titles, journals, articles, studies, etc….it’s about real life. If you only want those as proof, you will surely be far behind the times.

    Like

  158. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    I.e., it isn’t about facts. It’s about beliefs.

    Because the facts are against Mark’s position.

    Like

  159. April 23, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    @Mark – do you have any idea what the difference is between a legitimate fear of disease vs. fear bred by fraud?

    Like

  160. April 23, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    @Mark – so you admit that you have no evidence or proof, research or anything else that substantiates your opinion? Good to know, thanks.

    Oh, and when did you file with the vaccine court for your Father-in-Law?

    Like

  161. dingo199
    April 23, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Mark :
    Even my own father-in-law was injured by the flu vaccine, it was never reported. The Doc refused to do it, no time and the injury wasn’t serious enough for him to do so.

    Guess it wasn’t bad enough for you to bother reporting it yourself then.
    In UK just fill out the “yellow card” online. Simples.

    Like

  162. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    Too bad I don’t lie in the UK dingo.

    Like

  163. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    Sulliva – FACT, vaccines cause injuries. Not a belief, FACT.

    Like

  164. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    Lawrence – yes I know what fear mongering is…it’s happening in the UK right now.

    Like

  165. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    Mark :Sulliva – FACT, vaccines cause injuries. Not a belief, FACT.

    You don’t want to discuss results of studies, just what you consider “real life”. Rejecting reproducible data may be “real life” to you, but it isn’t a fact based discussion.

    Like

  166. April 23, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    @Mark – stop avoiding all of the questions. You don’t seem to know the difference between facts & fiction, fear of disease vs. irrational fear or how to provide any kind of evidence whatsoever…..

    And stop making strawman arguments as well – no one here is saying that vaccine reactions don’t occur – they do, from mild (common – like inflammation or soreness at the injection site) to severe, but lucky for everyone, those severe reactions are incredibly rare – as has been pointed out to you, with proper citations, on numerous occasions.

    Your beliefs, on the other hand, have no basis in actual fact….

    Like

  167. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 23, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Mark :Lawrence – yes I know what fear mongering is…it’s happening in the UK right now.

    As people watch hundreds of their citizens get sick, many hospitalized, some risking death, that’s something to fear.

    That’s not fear mongering. Fear mongering is, for example, Andrew Wakefield drumming up fear of the MMR by discussing adverse events with formulations pulled from the market 20 years ago.

    Like

  168. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    Mark:

    Chris – it’s not about titles, journals, articles, studies, etc….it’s about real life. If you only want those as proof, you will surely be far behind the times.

    What part of science is not real life? Do you think the science behind cell division, photosynthesis, the electricity powering your computer are not real life. The science and statistics describe real life. And in real life there are a thousand people in Wales with measles, and about a hundred real life people in the hospital with measles.

    So again, give us the real life statistics and science that the MMR is more dangerous than measles. Give us the verifiable scientific documentation that one out of ten doses of MMR puts someone in the hospital.

    Like

  169. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    Mark:

    Too bad I don’t lie in the UK dingo.

    In the USA you could have reported to to VAERS and/or the NVICP. Instructions on how to that are given on the Vaccine Information Sheets that federal law requires to be given with each vaccine.

    Like

  170. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    Real life = now Chris, I hope you don’t base every decision in your life on some study to come out.

    Somebody already posted the information you are requesting above. I’ll see if I can find it.

    Like

  171. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    Comment #55

    Like

  172. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    Chris, in the United States the Doc refused to help. Must be a great process, very efficient I am sure.

    Like

  173. Gray Falcon
    April 23, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    @Mark- Which would you prefer: That a doctor decide whether to amputate your limb before he finds out if he has to, or afterwords? We can’t just act on impulse, we need evidence.

    Like

  174. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 9:40 pm

    Mark:

    Chris, in the United States the Doc refused to help. Must be a great process, very efficient I am sure.

    So? The instructions on the VIS have direct links to both VAERS and NVICP.

    And, yes, in real life I do things like cook meats to certain temperatures, make sure I do not cross contaminate between raw chicken and vegetables, that I called 911 when my son had a seizure, have regular dental checkups, keep vermin out of my house, pay for municipal sewer/water services and that I drive according to the prescribed laws. All these things have science behind them.

    Now where is the scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, which has put 100 people in the hospital in Wales.

    Like

  175. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    Mark, comment #55 was a web link to an article by a homeopath. Read the comments that followed. What do “A Century of Home Ownership and Renting in England and Wales” statistics have to do with MMR safety?

    Now, again, please provide the journal, date and issue information that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

    Like

  176. Mark
    April 23, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    Not sure what link you are looking at Chris, works fine for me….
    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2013-04-20/cases-of-autism-dwarf-risk-from-measles/

    Like

  177. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:02 pm

    That is the same link. Heidi Stevenson is a homeopath, which makes her unqualified for any science (since anyone who has taken high school chemistry can understand that diluting something does not make it stronger). And the link to the “Office of National Statistics” is not to the data she was quoting (the home ownership link has been replaced with one on pension plans).

    It is not science. It is badly sourced opinion.

    Now please post the journal, date and issue information of the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

    Like

  178. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    And make sure it is from some who is qualified and not had their medical license revoked. So no homeopaths, business majors, no journalists, no computer scientists, no lawyers and no chemical engineers.

    Like

  179. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    Ooops, no business majors… like Blaxill and DeLong.

    Like

  180. Lara Lohne
    April 23, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    Dang, the one time I don’t copy my comment before posting is the time it disappears.

    Like

  181. Lara Lohne
    April 23, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    Nope, still not working.

    Like

  182. Chris
    April 23, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    Yeah, it is weird. I posted a 2012 Vaccine cite, but it refused to post any comment that contained the title.

    Like

  183. Lara Lohne
    April 23, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    It is irritating, that’s for sure. I don’t have nearly the issue posting on other blogs that use wordpress so not sure what’s going on here. But that’s why I’ve not been posting as much and it is unfortunate that many false and misinformation posters are allowed through but people who have actually real information to share are not.

    Like

  184. Christine Vara
    April 24, 2013 at 8:58 am

    Apologies for the continued WordPress glitches. Here is Lara’s comment from last evening, sent to us to add to the conversation.

    From Lara Lohne:

    “@Mark,

    As the parent of an autistic child, I find that op-ed (that is all it is) highly offensive and insulting to my intelligence. There is not an autism epidemic, as indicated by the sheer number of autistic adults there are, many of whom are not receiving their autism diagnosis until their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and beyond. It isn’t that all of a sudden these adults are developing developmental delay, it’s been with them all their life, but now they finally have something to call it. Back when they were kids, they were just socially awkward, nerdy or, my personal favorite, shy. And I am not only referring to people who have Asperger’s Syndrome (which is officially no longer recognized as a separate disorder anyway as of the release of the DSM V.)

    The increase in recognizable cases we are seeing is nothing more then better awareness and the broadening of the diagnostic criteria. As of the release of the DSM IV in 1994 (nobody seems able to connect the rise in autism incidence to the release of DSM IV even though 1994 was when we began to see the increase happening, but they sure can link the increase to everything else under the sun) autism was no longer a specific set of six, and only six, characteristics that must be met for the diagnosis of autism, rather it was three categories of characteristics where at least six of them must be met to meet the diagnosis of autism. It is and significant change, but nobody takes that into consideration when looking at what is causing the increase.

    As another, less then reliable, point of interest, the data from the phone survey of parents released recently by the CDC showing 1 in 50 cases of autism, also showed the largest increase in boys ages 12 – 17 (if I remember correctly) and these again, are not just children who all of a sudden begin displaying these characteristics, but they are only just now recognized.

    I grew up in an anti-vaccine family, I was anti-vaccine until I stopped believing in fairy tales and learned to think logically and that was when I began to question everything about vaccines that I had been trained to believe. I suffered through vaccine preventable diseases, I was permanently damaged by one, my younger sister was permanently damaged by a different one. That is two children in a family (out of 7 children) who have permanent injury from a vaccine preventable disease. Now take those same siblings and compare their children and grandchildren (19) who are all fully vaccinated and not one has ever suffered a vaccine injury (yes my son has autism, but he had it well before any MMR vaccine was received and even had regression about the 14 month age when he would have been due for it, but didn’t get it.) So in my own family, three generations, the first being unvaccinated 9as children as many of us as adults have received vaccines) but our children and grandchildren to date are fully vaccinated, more of us were injuries from the diseases then from the vaccines, and all of our children are very healthy and happy. That, is real life, and that is how awesome vaccines are.”

    Like

  185. Bart
    April 24, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    When making the risk/benefit analysis before deciding to get the MMR, it would be important to bear in mind that measles is not dangerous for the vast majority of those who get it. They have a high fever, bad cough, sore eyes, possibly an ear infection or diarrhea for a week or so, then get well. In 2011 in Europe, there were 26,074 diagnosed cases (far more undiagnosed), and only nine deaths. The vast vast majority got well and went their way. Mr. Gareth Williams, the only fatality so far in the measles outbreak in Wales, had asthma. He had been in the hospital for four days before being sent home, but, reportedly, had not yet been diagnosed with measles at the time of his death, alone in his apartment. He had asthma, so it is probable that he had a rapid onset of measles pneumonia, the stress of the symptoms brought on an asthma attack, and between the pneumonia and the asthma impeding his breathing, he asphyxiated. One in nine children vaccinated for pertussis develops asthma in the US, while only one in between fifty and a hundred unvaccinated children does. It would therefore seem likely that Mr. Williams would not have had the asthma which complicated his measles if he had not received the DPT as a child. Does anyone know if he had received the measles vaccine or the MMR at any time in his life? Originally, the MMR was supposed to require only one jab for lifetime protection. Numerous cases of vaccine failure have prompted the addition of extra doses over the years.

    Mr. William’s death should not be regarded as a billboard promoting the MMR, but as an event tragic for his family, girlfriend, and four-year old daughter, and an unfortunate reminder of the far-reaching consequences of reactions to the childhood vaccines.

    Like

  186. Chris
    April 24, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    So, Ms. Parker (Bart), measles is mild when one out of ten end up in the hospital.

    Like

  187. Chris
    April 24, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    Ms. Parker gave herself away with by dismissing the severity of measles with the “only nine deaths” bit.

    Like

  188. Lawrence
    April 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    @bart / Parker – if not for the outbreak due to Wakefield’s fear -mongering, those people wouldn’t gotten sick and no one would have died.

    Like

  189. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    It was only a matter of time before the someone downplayed the deaths as being from the weak. It’s pretty sad, really.

    If one is thinking only of one’s self, and one is relatively strong, one can do a risk benefit analysis: “If I get sick, I’ll probably suffer for a week and get back to work. If I take the MMR, I’ll get some redness for a day”

    If one is thinking more broadly, “If I get the measles I will be infectious for some time before I realize it and I could spread the infection to someone who is not so strong and will be injured and die.” Some will add “But that person is a stranger to me, most likely, and I’ll never hear about it, so why not forgo the vaccine”

    Like

  190. Lara Lohne
    April 24, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    I find it slightly ironic that because there appears to be more children and adults now with asthma, allergies, etc, it is automatically assumed that it is immunization increases over time that have caused the increase. When one actually looks at the real data, the reason we are seeing more asthma, allergies, etc, is because those who had it in past generations didn’t live long because there was no immunization. Thanks to the very easy prevention of very dangerous diseases, those who would not otherwise have survived these diseases and get to live a longer and more productive life, are now able to. So to a degree, yes vaccinations are responsible for more people being alive that have allergies, asthma, etc, but not in the way anti-vaccinationist would like people to think. That isn’t a bad thing actually, and if anyone disagrees, they pretty much just proved they align themselves with population control fanatics and eugenics pushers. Personally, I think that’s just twisted and wrong.

    Like

  191. Chris
    April 24, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    My kid has a fairly common genetic heart disorder (about 1 in 500). It includes abnormal growing of heart muscle, that also leads to scar tissue. This can be affected by various infections.

    It is very distressful that there are those who think that children like mine would be “better” off actually getting the diseases, and perhaps suffer a permanent injury or death. All because they do not have “perfect” health due to genetics (and after testing it looks like random mutation).

    Vaccination is much safer than the diseases, and dismissing hospitalizations, disability and death due to some arbitrary measure of “good” health is deplorable.

    Like

  192. Todd W
    April 25, 2013 at 1:26 am

    Chris:
    It is very distressful that there are those who think that children like mine would be “better” off actually getting a VACCINE, and perhaps suffer a permanent injury or death. All because they do not have “perfect” health due to genetics.

    Like

  193. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 2:13 am

    Huh? Please explain Todd W, who is not owner of http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/, how the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Provide the PubMed citations.

    Like

  194. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 2:15 am

    This Todd W is a just another sock puppet making unsupported assertions, and pretending to be someone else.

    If you cannot gain support with data, they resort to lies and pretending to be someone else.

    Like

  195. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 2:17 am

    The real Todd W has been notified.

    Like

  196. April 25, 2013 at 6:56 am

    Chris. Thanks for letting me know about the sock puppet.

    @(fake) Todd W.

    Why do you believe that vaccines are bad? Based on what evidence? Do you believe that vaccines are worse than the diseases they prevent? If so, in what way?

    More on-topic, what do you make of the current outbreak of measles in Wales, where there have been around 900 cases, over 80 hospitalizations and one suspected death?

    Like

  197. Christine Vara
    April 25, 2013 at 7:33 am

    While we understand that not everyone is comfortable using their real name/identity in online forums, there are those of us who do (and have even endured repeated threats and harassment from extreme anti-vaccine activists because of it.) However, it is completely unacceptable to purposely post comments in opposition to vaccination while using a name that is not your own but rather one of a well-identified vaccine supporter. This is not the first time this has happened, (as Chris has also been the victim of this kind of adolescent behavior in the past). However let this be a warning to all who participate in this kind of deception. Trying to assume the identity of a well-established commenter, or purposely trying to misrepresent their views, will no longer be acceptable on this forum. If the FAKE Todd W. would like to continue this conversation, than we ask that he/she choose a more appropriate name. Otherwise, comments under the “fake” Todd W. will be removed and his/her ability to post on this forum will be withheld. We hope that people will respect this policy and we appreciate the patience of those who have to endure this juvenile tactic from those who are too cowardly to engage in an adult manner.

    Like

  198. Todd W
    April 25, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Excuse me – fake Todd W? Why am I a fake Todd W? That is my given name, so I am not sure what you are talking about. How on earth would I know there is another person using the same name here and why does that make me a fake?????
    Totally ridicuous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Like

  199. Todd W
    April 25, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    You all sound crazy and paranoid! Wow! I am speechless.

    Like

  200. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Then “Todd”, post a comment on Todd W’s website with a real email address that includes your last name. Prove to him that you are not a pretender.

    And also prove that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles. Show us the PubMed indexed study that shows that a child is put into the hospital for every hundred doses of the MMR vaccine.

    Like

  201. April 25, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    @FakeTW – having been a victim of this myself on this site, I can say honestly – I don’t believe you.

    Like

  202. Todd W
    April 25, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    First of all, I have no idea what Todd’s website is or who he is, why should I? Is he famous?

    Secondly, I’m not giving you my email address. Based on your comments above, you don’t seem very stable and obviously jump to conclusions very quickly.

    Victim of what L? Did I pretend to say something that the other Todd W would say? Victim?

    Seriosly, you people are nuts!

    Like

  203. April 25, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    @FakeTW – okay, now who’s jumping to conclusions?

    Like

  204. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    “Todd”, do you see the blue letters under his name. It is a link to his website. You could also email the address in the “Contact us” box on the left of this page, and explain who you are. Plus, are you using a fake email to comment on this blog?

    But, still, you do need to prove that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles. So where are those PubMed indexed papers showing that one out of a hundred doses of MMR puts a kid into the hospital? At least I am not asking for proof it causes one out ten kids to end up in the hospital like measles.

    Like

  205. April 25, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    Back on topic – measles is extremely contagious & could spread easily among the most vulnerable of the population…..I can’t believe anti-vax folks can ignore the history of this particular disease, which was responsible for so many cases of childhood death and disability……these are facts, people, not anti-vax fiction.

    Like

  206. Todd
    April 25, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    Can I use just Todd or is that taken too? Let me know and I’ll change it so you don’t think I am impersonating somebody else. To confirm, this is Todd W, now going by just plain Todd, if it is OK. ANd yes my email address is real Chris.

    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/01/18/the-ineffectiveness-of-measles-vaccines-and-other-unintended-consequences-by-dr-viera-scheibner-phd/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+vaccinationcouncil+%28International+Medical+Council+on+Vaccination%29

    Like

  207. April 25, 2013 at 6:22 pm

    @Todd – please explain why we should consider a person whose expertise is in micropalaeontology knows the first thing about vaccines, immunology or disease?

    Also, care to explain how domestic measles was eradicated in the US?

    Quoting quacks isn’t a real good start.

    Like

  208. April 25, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    @Todd – not to even mention that she’s attempted to get child abusers / child killers off the hook by claiming that the abuse was actually a result of vaccinations…..a horrid individual.

    Like

  209. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Todd, that is not a PubMed indexed study. It is a webpage written by a geologist with no medical credentials. Again, please post the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR causes at least one person to get hospital care for every one hundred doses of the vaccine.

    Like

  210. April 25, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    @Todd

    There have been other anti-vaccine commenters on this site who have sockpuppeted using other people’s usernames.

    At any rate, I’m curious of your answers to the questions I asked earlier. Here they are again, so you don’t have to scroll up:

    Why do you believe that vaccines are bad? Based on what evidence? Do you believe that vaccines are worse than the diseases they prevent? If so, in what way?

    More on-topic, what do you make of the current outbreak of measles in Wales, where there have been around 900 cases, over 80 hospitalizations and one suspected death?

    Like

  211. dingo199
    April 26, 2013 at 8:57 am

    @Todd
    I should be surprised that people seem to trust sources of information that comprise narratives on antivaccine websites or “publications” from magazines/journals that are not scientifically peer-reviewed and written by amateur “vaccinologists” whose only scientific claims to fame consist of having a totally unrelated degree with a honors diploma from Google Uni, as opposed to relying on the broad published scientific consensus reliant on experts in microbiology, immunology, pediatrics, epidemiology and infectious disease.

    But little surprises me any more.

    Like

  212. Dash
    April 26, 2013 at 10:06 am

    Lawrence,
    The UK Telegraph just published an interview with Karenza Cassidy, a mom in Swansea who saw her son regress into autism after the MMR, and said it was so dramatic and obvious, and she saw it with her own eyes, that the connection was undeniable. She said she had gotten measles as a child, the way all children did then, and it was considered a minor illness, certainly much preferable to hundreds of thousands of children permanently damaged by MMR autism or bowel diseases (etc.) My memory too, I had measles as a child, and everyone I knew got it as well. No one worried about it, just put us to bed for as long as we were sick. I’m not denying that a few had serious complications, but that was not within the personal experience of my family or anyone we knew. Now, of course, everyone knows vaccine-damaged, autistic children.

    Like

  213. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Dash, why does one story erase all of the research? Including the years of study that shows measles is dangerous, and before the vaccine at around four hundred children died in the USA each year with many more permanently disabled.

    You continue to say “hundreds of thousands of children permanently damaged by MMR autism or bowel diseases (etc.).” Right now in Wales about one in ten with measles need hospital care. Just post the PubMed indexed study showing that the MMR vaccine causes as much harm as measles.

    Like

  214. April 26, 2013 at 11:09 am

    @Dash – if these cases were so “dramatic” why is it so hard to find actual documented instances of this occurring? Surely, with “hundreds of thousands” it would be easy to find these cases full documented with medical records, charts, etc.

    In the US, the three “best” cases were put forward & even then, with a much reduced burden of evidence, what was presented was judged to be so tenuous as to be completely unrelated to a link between vaccines and autism.

    You try to stretch “stories” into facts – when a further look at the evidence shows not what the anti-vax people hope it would.

    In the US, we also used to have whole chains of schools and institutions dedicated to those who suffered debilitating side-effects from VPDs – including schools for the deaf and blind (remember those?) of course, we have very few of those today, because kids aren’t going deaf and blind, because they aren’t catching those diseases anymore.

    You really should read a bit of history on these diseases – they were never considered, “mild” they were put up with because parents didn’t have a choice. Before vaccines, chances were you would catch the measles or mumps & your parents just had to hope and prey that you weren’t one of those who did go blind or suffer secondary infections……

    Please do a bit of research before you claim these are “mild diseases.”

    Like

  215. Edward Mortemer
    April 26, 2013 at 11:18 am

    Hello Chirs – It’s much more than one story, it’s thosands of similar stories. Here are some more http://www.amazon.com/The-Thinking-Moms-Revolution-Inspiring/dp/1620878844

    Like

  216. Venna
    April 26, 2013 at 11:35 am

    Please don’t ignore the parents, they know their children better than anybody.

    Like

  217. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 11:35 am

    Mr. Mortemer, I am sorry but that is not a PubMed indexed study. There is actual data showing that before vaccines an average of four hundred Americans died from measles every year. We need more than stories, we need real evidence.

    And please stop changing your username. Just find one a stick to it.

    Like

  218. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 11:44 am

    Venna, who is ignoring parents? Why do you want to ignore parents like me who have had a child have seizures from an actual disease? Provide the PubMed indexed evidence that the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles.

    Also, please stop changing your username.

    Like

  219. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 11:45 am

    I agree with Edward and Venna, the parents stories are real evidence, probably more so than any study. They better start listening to the people. Shameful that the parents get brushed off like that.

    Like

  220. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 11:52 am

    Again, please stop changing your username. It makes you look pathetic.

    And why are you brushing off the stories of the parents who lost children from measles, and the tens of thousands of parents whose babies died or were disabled during the 1960s rubella epidemic?

    Now, Edward, Venna, Mark, Todd, Raeginia, and other sock puppets: where is that PubMed indexed study showing that the MMR vaccine which has been used in the USA since 1971 is more dangerous than measles?

    Like

  221. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    I can’t speak for Edward or Venna or any others (you seem to think I am one of them) but I can say I am not brushing off stories of children with measles etc., one thing is not related to the other. Do I belive vaccines contribute to autism and other health issues? Yes! Do I understand that not getting these nasty diseases in the first place to risk injury or death would be a good thing? Yes!

    Like

  222. April 26, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    @Raeginia – except there is no scientific proof that vaccines are related to autism.

    Unfortunately, there is mountains of scientific proof that VPDs lead to unfortunate side-effects such as blindness, deafness, congenital birth defects, secondary infections, pneumonia, encephalitis & death……one does not equal the other – fiction is not fact, so your beliefs are wrong.

    Like

  223. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    It has nothing to do with “beliefs”, it has to do with the data and evidence. Since my son suffered seizures from a now vaccine preventable illness you need to stop ignoring my story.

    So provide the PubMed indexed evidence that the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles. Something that contradicts this study from California data: Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.

    Like

  224. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    The parents and children are the evidence. Nobody is ignoring your story why are you ignoring thousands of stories? The stories are the evidence. Wake up people.

    Like

  225. April 26, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    @Raeginia – why haven’t those stories been documented as real “evidence?”

    Every time they are looked at more closely, it turns out not to be what the parents’ claimed it was (the Omnibus Hearings are a perfect example of that).

    And please answer the question, why, in multiple population studies, are the rates of autism the same regardless of vaccination status?

    Like

  226. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Yes, the parents and children are evidence. The California data came directly from the children’s medical records. This is what the methods say in the abstract:

    We reviewed immunization records from 246 pediatric encephalitis cases referred to the California Encephalitis Project between July 1998 and December 2008. We included data on 110 cases who had been immunized in the year prior to the onset of encephalitis (observation period) and had complete immunization records. We used the case-centered method to test whether cases were more likely to have developed encephalitis in defined risk windows-42, 30 and 21 days after any vaccination, 3 days after pertussis-containing vaccines and 5-15 days after measles-virus containing vaccines-compared with the rest of the observation period.

    So, Raeginia, where is the PubMed evidence that the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles?

    Like

  227. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Because people have attitudes like yours….not open minded, stubborn, egos, etc… The parents are just stupid, they don’t know anything, why should they take it seriously? I wear a white coat, you are a parent….no contest.

    Like

  228. April 26, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    @Raeginia – except the studies are done with “real parents & real children.” Do you think people just make this stuff up (well, on the anti-vax side, it seems that way). I was part of a long-term health study from newborn to 5 years old – my records were tracked and data compiled – that’s how it is done.

    We know, from multiple studies, that the rates of autism don’t vary depending on the vaccination status of the population – explain that, why don’t you?

    As to the measles outbreak – people are being hospitalized at a rate of 1 in 10, doesn’t that bother you?

    Like

  229. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Why are you calling parents stupid? Are you calling me stupid because I had the audacity to call 911 when my son had seizures in front of me? Are you calling me stupid because he was sick for over a week, and the day before the doctor said he was getting better?

    Are you calling me stupid for asking you to provide the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles? Am I being stupid for wanting real evidence for medical decisions and not random stories?

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  230. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    So Chris, where is my BLT? Do you enjoy asking random questions?

    Like

  231. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    I was responding to you calling parents stupid. And I am sorry, but I do not have bacon in the house at the present, so I cannot give a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich.

    Now provide the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles.

    Like

  232. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    I wasn’t calling parents stupid, I believe in the parents, you are the one who thinks parents are stupid. Why are you playing games?

    Like

  233. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    Raeginia, here is a cut and paste from your comment: ” The parents are just stupid,”

    I am a parent. I have a parent of a child with multiple medical issues. I have seen what happens with at two now vaccine preventable diseases, and it is not pleasant. Trust me rides in ambulances are not fun. I cannot go by stories, I need real data.

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  234. April 26, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    @Raeginia – stop putting words in our mouths, because that’s not what is being said. Unfortunately, these parents are being fed a line by the anti-vax movement that is coloring their opinion of what actually occurred…..they are being misled, and that is all.

    So, who here is close-minded?

    Like

  235. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    I am not the one playing games. It is you folks who come in with your sock puppets and beg us to believe in stories. We cannot go by beliefs. These are our children, and we want to keep them safe. We need real evidence.

    So, please provided the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR vaccine causes more seizures than measles.

    Like

  236. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    OOPs: it should read: ” I am a parent of a child with multiple medical issues.”

    Like

  237. April 26, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    @Raeginia

    No one here is calling parents stupid. Some of them may be mistaken, but they are not stupid. This is one of the things that many anti-vaccine activists like to level at vaccine proponents, accuse them of thinking parents are dumb. One needn’t be dumb to be incorrect.

    Like

  238. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    None of these parents are mislead Lawrence, and they are not mistaken, Todd, Call it what you will, stupid or not, the result is the same, they don’t get any credit and their claims are dismissed as parents caught up in the moment, or my favorite, they have “bad memories.” Please stop trying to sugar coat it, FACT, the parents are not believed. Fact, the parents know what they are talking about and know their children better than anybody else in the world. Start listening to them!!

    Like

  239. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    “Start listening to them!!”

    Why are you ignoring me, Raeginia? Why won’t you listen to me? Is it because I am a parent of a child with medical issues and who had seizures from an actual disease?

    Raeginia, please provide the PubMed indexed study that shows the MMR causes more seizures than measles.

    Like

  240. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    I am not ignoring you Chris. I hear you load and clear. That does not change the fact that vaccines are injuring children and contributing to autism. Not sure what you want me to say. You want me to tell you that we should go ahead and keep giving vaccines when they are not safe? You’d rather keep on hurting people just to say they are vaccinated so that they possibly won’t catch a disease? Makes no sense Chris. You don’t care about what is happening.

    Like

  241. Lara Lohne
    April 26, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Raegenia, Venna (stolen nym) and Edward…

    Stories are nothing but stories. My kids told stories all the time, half of them were so fantastical they couldn’t have been real, yet they told them with such fervor you would think that they actually had happened.

    My story of my son’s regression is significantly different from those claiming “it was the MMR! I saw it with my own eyes!” Are you going to listen to my story as the parent of an autistic child? There are many things that I have thought I saw with my own eyes, but when one understands science, physics, etc, they know they couldn’t possibly have seen what they think they saw. Our eyes can play tricks on us and just because one thing happens after another does not mean they are in any way related. (E.g. a person can buy a new pair of shoes and upon venturing out from their purchase, in their new shoes, steps into the cross walk and gets hit by a car driven by someone who isn’t paying attention. Are the new shoes responsible for that person who was wearing them getting run down since the accident happened right after buying them and upon wearing them for the first time? This is the fallacy of correlation = causation, two events corresponding to one another in time are not necessarily related to one another.)

    The hypothesis of vaccines causing autism has been tested, over and over and there isn’t anything showing the remotest link. A person can claim all they like that someone happened one way, but when real evidence shows it couldn’t have happened that way, no offense to the person making the claim, but I’m going to go with what science tells me. That and my own personal experience is different from their own. In that respect I’m fortunate because it was enough to keep me from being swallowed up again by the anti-vaccine movement, because it’s really hard to get out of.

    As much as one would like to believe these parents, and as much as one can empathize with their struggles, their stories are not evidence. It is because of their stories that the vaccine=autism science was done in the first place and found to be non-existent. So they were listened to, and their stories were investigated and they were told, “I’m really sorry but your story just can’t be true, the science says otherwise.” And yet these parents refuse to let go of their stories, even though they got what they wanted and were found to be incorrect. People make mistakes, we all do, it’s part of being human. The hard part is letting go of mistaken ideas and moving forward. That is how we will grow as individuals and as a species.

    Like

  242. Raeginia
    April 26, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Thank you for proving my point Lara. “stories” they are just “stories”

    Like

  243. Lara Lohne
    April 26, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Raeginia :
    The parents and children are the evidence. Nobody is ignoring your story why are you ignoring thousands of stories? The stories are the evidence. Wake up people.

    isn’t this you? Because I’m pretty sure, here you are saying that stories are evidence. If that is what you said originally, then I didn’t prove your point at all. You were claiming the stories were the evidence, I am showing you how stories are not evidence, but are just stories, so I’m proving my point, and the point of Chris, Todd W. and Lawrence too.

    Like

  244. April 26, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    @Raeginia – see, here’s the problem. The researchers started with the parents’ stories & did the studies…turns out the Science just isn’t there to bear out the hypothesis.

    Like

  245. April 26, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    @Raeginia – although we’ve gotten fairly off-topic again, I ask again – why, when the studies are done, do autism rates stay the same regardless of vaccination status in populations?

    Like

  246. Compassion - Phooey
    April 26, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Belle,

    On the contrary, I love how effective “vaccine injury” is at destroying compassion. If you asked a loving parent if he’d like to give her child a bleach enema, or sprinkle industrial chemicals on her child’s breakfast, and you’d get a punch in the face – but if you first tell the parent that the child has a “vaccine injury” you’ll find that some parents will become eager to abuse their children in all sorts of profitable ways (exorcism, bleach enemas, stem cell injections, hyperbariac chambers, etc. etc.). It’s all a matter of killing off that pesky compassion that tries to tell the parents to love and teach their children, rather than experiment on them (I’ve even seen some cases where parents have lost so much compassion that they accuse parents who fight for their children (instead of against them) of “giving up”).

    Like

  247. April 26, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    @Raeginia

    How do you know that they are not mistaken? They may be entirely sincere and believe, with all their heart, that they saw what they think they saw. But that may be completely at odds with the facts. You might be interested in the book Picking Cotton. It’s the story of a woman who was raped at knife-point. She escaped and accused Ronald Cotton as her attacker. He said she was mistaken, but he was convicted and sent to prison. Fast forward a number of years. Authorities are now able to test DNA. They did so in this case, and it turns out it was not Cotton at all, but another man entirely. He was released after spending over a decade behind bars. Eventually Jennifer Thompson and Cotton met, became friends, and wrote this book about the whole thing.

    Was Thompson stupid? No. Not in the least. Was she mistaken? Oh, yes. The story illustrates how we can fool ourselves (or, be misled by others), yet be so convinced that we are right, even when the evidence is against us. It is not a weakness or failing. It is simply human.

    Like

  248. April 26, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    @Todd – just talk to the Innocence Project on how unreliable “eye-witness testimony” is, based on the number of people who have been released (sometimes after decades) due to the advancement of Science…..

    Like

  249. Chris
    April 26, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Raeginia:

    That does not change the fact that vaccines are injuring children and contributing to autism.

    Citation needed. Show us the PubMed indexed studies that the MMR vaccine causes more injury than measles. You can start with just the citation showing the scientific evidence that it causes more seizures than measles.

    Not sure what you want me to say. You want me to tell you that we should go ahead and keep giving vaccines when they are not safe?

    I want you to give us the scientific citations that are indexed on PubMed to support your assertions. What part of that is difficult to understand.

    You’d rather keep on hurting people just to say they are vaccinated so that they possibly won’t catch a disease?

    How am I hurting anyone? Since I know from experience how the diseases can hurt and permanently disable I need actual evidence, not unverifiable stories. What is more hurtful: asking for evidence, or the suffering from measles happening in Wales right now? How are the 80 or so that are in the hospital from measles hurting less than those who are being asked to support their claims with verifiable scientific evidence?

    Like

  250. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 26, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    Raeginia :None of these parents are mislead Lawrence, and they are not mistaken, Todd, Call it what you will, stupid or not, the result is the same, they don’t get any credit and their claims are dismissed as parents caught up in the moment, or my favorite, they have “bad memories.” Please stop trying to sugar coat it, FACT, the parents are not believed. Fact, the parents know what they are talking about and know their children better than anybody else in the world. Start listening to them!!

    When it comes to autism and MMR, for example, the parents were believed. Which is why a number of studies were performed.

    Nothing about being a parent makes on an expert of the neurobiology of their child. I know (for the most part) what I see. That doesn’t mean I understand what causes everything I see.

    Like

  251. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    April 26, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Raeginia :Because people have attitudes like yours….not open minded, stubborn, egos, etc… The parents are just stupid, they don’t know anything, why should they take it seriously? I wear a white coat, you are a parent….no contest.

    I don’t wear a white coat. I am a parent (most people in white coats are parents too, by the way).

    These sorts of statements are in their own way a method of dismissing another’s point of view. Rather than accept that a person has actually considered both sides, characterize the person as closed minded, working from a big ego, etc..

    Like

  252. April 27, 2013 at 10:04 am

    Raeginia :
    The parents and children are the evidence. Nobody is ignoring your story why are you ignoring thousands of stories? The stories are the evidence. Wake up people.

    Like

  253. April 27, 2013 at 10:05 am

    My comment with this quote did not come through. I am busy now and will have to make it later.

    Like

  254. dingo199
    April 28, 2013 at 3:11 am

    @Raegina and the other sockies:
    As Matt says, parents were believed and listened to, which is why science performed the relevant studies that would show definitievely, one way or the other, whether the stories had any basis in fact. Because a small minority of parents choose to ignore that evidence and persist in claiming there is a link, that doesn’t mean there is one.

    I am not saying vaccines can never cause brain damage – they can and it happens, extremely rarely and we know exactly how frequently this happens (because of studies, and not anecdotes). If there were any basis for there being “tens of thousands” of instances where children suddenly developed autistic regression following vaccines, there would be some decent reliable evidence for it other than internet anecdotes from parents on antivaccine webforums.

    Like

  1. March 11, 2014 at 7:26 am

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