Home > General Info, Preventable Diseases > Share This Special Valentine

Share This Special Valentine

It’s Valentine’s Day!  A day when we send flowers, give chocolate and share kisses.  And who doesn’t love to kiss the sweet, soft skin of a precious little baby?

BUT WAIT!

Let’s remember…NO KISSES!  

(Unless – of course – everyone is up to date on their Tdap boosters.)

See, those kisses can be deadly to little babies if they spread whooping cough.  So, for Valentine’s Day this year, don’t just show your love with flowers and chocolate.  If you really want to show how much you care, share this colorful infographic from the CDC.  It shows the three important steps that expectant parents can take to give their babies the best protection from whooping cough, including the recent recommendation that pregnant women get a Tdap shot during every pregnancy.

whooping-coughinfographic

Last year, the United States experienced a record high number of whooping cough cases.  With more than 41,000 reported cases in 2012, it was a near 60-year record high. Although whooping cough can be serious for anyone, it can be deadly for babies. Statistics show that about half of infants who get whooping cough will end up in the hospital and sadly, the majority of deaths from whooping cough last year occurred among infants younger than 3 months.

So share this clever infographic with everyone you know.  Because by getting an adult Tdap booster, we can protect the youngest and most vulnerable amongst us.  Those precious babies.

  1. Debbie Voss
    February 14, 2013 at 10:35 am

    Except other countries such as Australia have already proven that ‘cocooning’ doesn’t work. Also the insert of the vaccine says there are no studies that say it is safe to vaccinate a pregnant woman. This is very concerning to see the government promote this…

    Like

  2. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 10:54 am

    It is very concerning to see you want to reduce herd immunity. Next time, Ms. Voss, try posting the title, journal and date of the PubMed index paper to support your assertions.

    Like

  3. February 14, 2013 at 10:56 am

    It is the vaccinated who get whooping cough.
    81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine.
    Eleven percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated.
    In addition to this the risk of side effects from the vaccine is considerable.

    Like

  4. Rose
    February 14, 2013 at 10:57 am

    And except that the acellular pertussis vaccine used now just isn’t very effective. Most of the 41,000 diagnosed with it in the U.S. last year (and thousands more undiagnosed) had been appropriately vaccinated, but got it anyway. CDC Dr. Schuchat said that the unvaccinated could not be blamed for the epidemic for this reason. If half the babies who get whooping cough wind up in the hospital, it’s because of the fear widely promoted rather than actual need. Cough suppressants are harmful and ineffective, and antibiotics do no good once the coughing has started. Vitamin C therapy works, and you have to hold the infant up to your shoulder during all coughing fits to help him cough up the accumulated mucus in his lungs. But the best thing would be to effectively prevent newborns from getting the disease. The statistic you neglected to include is that last year there were only 18 deaths, most among the newborns of impoverished Mexican families.. The shot will not offer them any protection at two months, and not much at four, and may not work at any age. Rather than spend millions promoting a dangerous and ineffective shot, it would be better to put this money into programs that would enable every family of a newborn to keep the baby in quarantine at home for his first few months, and educate everyone about the need to allow very few people to get close to very young babies. Even if you vaccinated every single person around the baby, a lot of them would still be capable of getting and transmitting the disease, which is very rarely dangerous in anyone over four months old. .

    Like

  5. Angel
    February 14, 2013 at 11:08 am

    Get vaccinated so you can become a silent reservoir of infection and pass along whooping cough without even knowing it…YAY!!!

    Like

  6. Lauren @ the VEC
    February 14, 2013 at 11:18 am

    While the pertussis vaccine is not perfect, it is still a really good way to decrease transmission throughout the community. Keeping babies away from people who are sick will help, but many people never know they have pertussis, and, therefore, unknowingly pass it to others. Some of the issues surrounding pertussis are discussed in the following places:

    Parents PACK, a program for parents from the Vaccine Education Center at CHOP: http://www.chop.edu/service/parents-possessing-accessing-communicating-knowledge-about-vaccines/vaccine-preventable-diseases/tetanus-diphtheria-pertussis.html#pertussis

    The Public’s Health blog (Philly.com) published 11/30/12 by Dr. Kristen Feemster, a physician-scientist at the Vaccine Education Center at CHOP, “Why is whooping cough on the rise, and what can you do about it?” Link: http://www.philly.com/philly/health/Why-is-whooping-cough-back-and-what-can-you-do-about-it.html

    Like

  7. Rose
    February 14, 2013 at 11:20 am

    Chris,
    Herd immunity is supposed to mean that a highly-vaccinated population cannot sustain an epidemic. Obviously, last year’s pertussis epidemic proved that that isn’t the case. I know you guys would like to bring back the devastatingly dangerous DPT whole-cell pertussis vaccine, but I think there are still enough of us around from the ’80s who remember all the brain-damaged and dead babies that were the result of that vaccine’s universal use. The DTaP was marketed as being much safer than the DTP (when it really isn’t), but the acellular version has proven to be much less effective at preventing pertussis. What a quandary! How to make people forget all the talk show programs, the Vaccine Rouletter program, and the book A Shot in the Dark from the ’80s, tell them there weren’t really THAT many brain-damaged and killed babies, and let’s revive the DPT so we can recreate real herd immunity against a not-very-serious disease in everyone older than newborns.

    Like

  8. Rose
    February 14, 2013 at 11:28 am

    Lauren,
    Since a huge number of those appropriately vaccinated for pertussis can still get and transmit it, they will think they are protected, and really aren’t, and may unwittingly infect newborns. The vaccine often causes asthma, allergies, seizure disorders, SIDS, and autism. It would be better to refocus the question on cocooning newborns by allowing only the smallest number possible of caregivers to handle them, and only those who show no symptoms of any respiratory illness. Of course it wouldn’t be perfect, the caregiver might be incubating a disease but not yet show symptoms, the mother herself might be coming down with something, and might or might not consistently use a mask and gloves, but the number of perfect solutions to this problem is essentially zero, since the vaccine often offers no protection at all.

    Like

  9. February 14, 2013 at 11:36 am

    We are well beyond this.

    Vaccination isn’t immunization. It introduces potentially infectious microbes, immune system exciters, known neurotoxins, maverick strands of foreign DNA and RNA and unknown contaminants through the back door, if you will – the limbs – precluding a full immune response. True recuperative and protective immune response is elicited by natural introduction, which is primarily through ingestion or inhalation, and, secondarily, through skin contact. The bulk of the infectious disease immune system is located in the gut and the respiratory tract. The artificial stimulation of the immune system through a totally unnatural route triggers reactions to microbes and chemicals to which it otherwise would not react, breeding autoimmunity. In a very real sense, vaccination is autoimmunization.

    Adjuvants, such as are used in vaccines to excite the immune system, are literally used by researchers when they want to study autoimmunity, because they trigger rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases when injected into lab animals. Immunologists attest to the fact that they also induce autoimmunity in humans. The fact that we inject these, along with known neurotoxins, into infants, babies and toddlers, starting on the day of birth, and administered in a virtual barrage through the first two years, the most critical period of development of the brain and immune system, is actually quite cruel. The results are autoimmune diseases like, among many others, asthma, diabetes and arthritis, most of which were formerly reserved for mature adults and the elderly, and the neurological dysfunctions that display as speech and learning disabilities and the broad array of disorders that fall on the autism spectrum – all of which ailments are epidemic in our kids.

    Like

  10. February 14, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    @Shawn – care to supply any citations for those assertions? Seems you also have a completely misunderstanding of basic biology as well, especially regarding the immune system – perhaps you should stop listening to the various anti-vax cranks out there & crack open a Science book instead.

    Like

  11. February 14, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    @rose / cia parker – please stop coming here & pushing your same old series of lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations of Science….

    Like

  12. Lauren @ the VEC
    February 14, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    @Rose – If you are aware of data that shows that “The vaccine often causes asthma, allergies, seizure disorders, SIDS, and autism.” please provide references as we review the science regularly and have not found studies that support your statement. Similarly, your statement that “the vaccine often offers no protection at all” is not supported by data. While a limited number of people may not respond to the vaccine, in most people there will be at least some immune system response resulting in at least partial protection.

    Like

  13. Rose
    February 14, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Law,
    You’re just miffed because Shawn has outgunned you. You know he can easily come up with hundreds of citations, because, as he said, we’re beyond this, and it’s simply true that vaccines trigger autoimmune responses, skewing development toward the autoimmune Th-2 response when it should be developing toward a preferential Th-! response. Hundreds and hundreds of studies proving vaccines trigger asthma, allergies, arthritis, bowel disease, diabetes, etc. etc. etc.
    The same old, same old charge goes both ways.

    Like

  14. February 14, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    @cia – yeah, out-gunned with what? I don’t see a single citation or shred of evidence in his post (and neither do you – or have you, for that matter).

    So, if there are hundreds, why don’t you post them for all to see?

    And cia – please stop with the sock-puppeting, seriously, it’s getting old, tired, and old some more.

    Like

  15. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    We test mice for susceptibility to autoimmune disease just to see if vaccination triggers it and yes, it does. Why are we not testing every person before vaccinating them?

    http://www.jimmunol.org/content/170/1/24.abstract?sid=934c8b3b-d2d2-485a-a720-c7e70c8a7a79

    Like

  16. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    This study clearly documents that vaccinations are a primary cause of autoimmune diseases.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008382

    Like

  17. February 14, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    @sock-puppet WW – that’s from 2002 & involves mice only. Anything more recent?

    Like

  18. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Here’s a good one..

    Unexpectedly limited durability of immunity following acellular pertussis vaccination in preadolescents in a North American outbreak.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423127

    Like

  19. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    “Protection against pertussis waned during the 5 years after the fifth dose of DTaP. (Funded by Kaiser Permanente).

    Drs. Klein and Baxter report receiving grant support to their institution from Sanofi Pasteur, GlaxoSmithKline, Novartis, Merck, and Pfizer. No other potential conflict of interest relevant to this article was reported.”

    Even researchers with declared conflicts of interest admit that this vaccine is crap.

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200850

    Like

  20. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    @Lawrence – do you have something against mice? I guess we could test it on you instead, if you are willing?

    Like

  21. February 14, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    @WW – yes, we certainly understand the DTaP vaccine isn’t as effective as we would like related to Pertussis….what is your recommendation for preventing the spread of Pertussis?

    We all want better vaccines, which is why research is continuing.

    Like

  22. novalox
    February 14, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @rose/cia

    You do know that sockpuppeting (in order to build up false consensus)is a sure sign that one’s position is untenable, and that it is not allowed here?

    Like

  23. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    @Lawrence, glad you understand.

    Like

  24. February 14, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    Some of you folks need to start talking to people instead of reading studies. Studies are academic; people are real. When thousand of parents attest to terrible reactions following vaccinations, too many of them to never fully recover, but to start instead down the road of regression to an ultimate diagnosis of autism, it flies in the face of common sense to discount their stories.

    The behavior of our public health authorities – of the vaccine industry of which they’re a part – has been atrocious. They are deceivers, and all you have to do is admit that it’s a possibility and begin researching to discover that for yourself – which ultimately is what you must do. No one can do it for you.

    For starters, just in case you believe the fairy tale of the eradication of polio via the vaccine:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/great-mothers-and-others-questioning-vaccines/now-ya-see-it-the-polio-caper/522168097823233

    Like

  25. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    Completely agree with you Shawn!

    Like

  26. February 14, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    @Shawn – wait a second, I though Cia Parker said you had hundreds of studies that you could quote….oh wait, I guess that was a lie too.

    As for studies vs. people – false premise. Studies are about people – that’s how we know what we know. We know, for example, that vaccines aren’t linked to autism because, you know what, we studied the people (population studies, individual clinical trials, etc).

    There is a reason why the Scientific Method works – because it allows us to get around individual bias & instead deal with real facts. Luckily, we have the facts and evidence on our side, while you have nothing but emotion on yours.

    I also don’t consider “Facebook” to be the arbiter of reality (or Science for that matter).

    Like

  27. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    Mr. Siegal:

    Studies are academic; people are real.

    Studies are done by real people. The plural of anecdote is not data. Youtube videos and Facebook pages (especially about polio when the discussion is pertussis) are not science:

    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Like

  28. February 14, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    @Chris – I also like to throw up this, just in general:

    http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/

    Since it deals with many of the over-arching myths of the anti-vaccine crowd (along with great links to real science).

    Like

  29. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    @Lawrence
    “I also don’t consider “Facebook” to be the arbiter of reality (or Science for that matter).”

    This site isn’t any better. I guess you are wasting your time here.

    Like

  30. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    Them, Mr. Wallace, you are free to not visit this site. But we are quite interested in what kind of viable plan you would have to prevent pertussis.

    Like

  31. February 14, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    @Chris – not to mention:

    http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php

    Or Todd’s website debunking the canard of anti-vaccine myths as well (linked in my name)

    Like

  32. February 14, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Some maintain that they have “the evidence”, “the facts”, “the reality” etc. The problem is that published research including peer reviewed studies is not necessarily reliable.

    “Peer Review is Broken”.
    http://www.scienceboard.net/community/perspectives.142.html
    “Despite its importance as the ultimate gatekeeper of scientific publication and funding, peer review is known to engender bias, incompetence, excessive expense, ineffectiveness, and corruption”.

    Nobody has the monopoly of truth.

    Like

  33. February 14, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    @VaccineRisks – no system is perfect, but there are, in fact, decades of clinical research, drug trials, regulatory processes, population studies, not to mention that this research has been done not only by governmental agencies, but also independent medical researchers, clinical groups, educational institutions, both domestic and international – and the overwhelming weight of evidence shows that vaccines are both incredibly safe and incredibly effective…..

    Of course, I will point out one of the greatest examples of bad peer review and bad Science – it was the Lancet 12 Study, published by (then Dr.) Wakefield, later retracted due to fraud.

    Like

  34. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    @Chris
    I happen to disagree with Lawrence.

    Like

  35. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    “Vaccine Risks”, please give us the scientific evidence that the Tdap is more dangerous than tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis, and viable plan to protect babies from pertussis.

    Like

  36. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    Mr. Wallace, I don’t care if you disagree with Lawrence, I want you to tell us exactly how you would protect babies from pertussis. Make sure that the plan actually works.

    Like

  37. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:09 pm

    I don’t take orders from you Chris.

    Like

  38. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    I don’t care for your condescending attitude, Chris.

    Like

  39. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    Multiple vaccine doses have resulted in up to 145,000 child deaths in past 20 years

    http://het.sagepub.com/content/31/10/1012.full

    Like

  40. February 14, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    Nobody has facts, when it all comes down to it. They have evidence that points this way or that, but, technically and literally, no proof. After all, you can’t enter the body with the vaccine and monitor each and every ensuing reaction; it’s impossible.

    The issue is trust. I provided a document in my second comment above that contains valid references – one to the Illinois Medical Journal, the others to the CDC – that support my accusation; that the behavior of the vaccine industrialists is deceptive – purposefully and pointedly so. The only way you can read the chronicle I provided and not recognize the possibility of a purposed misrepresentation of the success of the polio vaccine is to simply not be able to admit even the possibility of the possibility, and I can only say that that depth of naivete is debilitating.

    I’m attacking no one, for it’s a waste of time. We’re all here for the health of our kids.

    By the way, if the current rate of annual increase in the incidence of ASD’s continues unabated, by 2022, 1 in 5 boys will be on the spectrum; by 2027, 1 in 2; and by 2032, ostensibly 1 in 1 – all of ’em. The girls will join them only eight years later. If there were ever a time to open your eyes to new possibilities as to cause, this is it.

    Like

  41. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    Autism Science Digest: Aluminum Toxicity in Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Autism

    http://www.rescuepost.com/files/asd05_mullanyasko.pdf

    Like

  42. Lara Lohne
    February 14, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    Research does not support the claims that DTaP vaccine and TDaP boosters cause illness and neurological damage. Research did show the DPT vaccine had a higher risk factor to some then the DTaP, which is why it is now used instead. Research also tells us the DTaP and TDaP booster are not as effective as the previously used DPT vaccine, and actually suggests earlier boosters are needed for pre-teens and more often for adults. No vaccine is perfect, but with the knowledge we have now, the DTaP and TDaP boosters are the best protection we have. Therefore, it only makes sense, that until a better option is found, we should use the best tool we have.

    I suffered for three months with pertussis at age 17, I was never immunized for it as I was raised in an anti-vaccine family. The pertussis left me with permanent lung damage to the point that, even as an adult, I would not survive another bout with it. I had my first TDaP vaccine two and a half years ago. If I find myself in a position where I am around infants, I will make sure I get another one, just in case because it’s better to be safe, then sorry.

    Some will claim that having pertussis will guarantee you long immunity. This is false, as immunity can wane from the disease just as quickly as it can with the vaccine, and who would want to suffer through three months of uncontrollable, rib cracking coughing spells that could lead to permanent lung damage that will last the rest of your life? Not to mention the other damage that can occur from the disease also.

    You don’t have to agree with this. But the responsibility rests on you if you succumb to the disease and pass it to an innocent baby who does not survive it. The facts are, babies can die from it, it can cause permanent lung damage, It can cause other damage also, and the only way to prevent it from spreading is to make sure everyone who can be is vaccinated for it. Disagree all you like, the facts are still true whether you do or not.

    Like

  43. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/?tool=pubmed

    Like

  44. Lara Lohne
    February 14, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    For the record, there has not been an increased in incidence of autism, simply an increase in diagnoses of it. And that began back in 1994 when the diagnostic criteria for it were changed to make it a broader set of possible characteristics, where as before, it was a set, standard of six and if all six were not met, the child/persona was given a diagnosis of mental retardation (now referred to as intellectual disability). If you had any dealings with people in the autism community, you would know, more and more adults are being diagnosed with ASD. Not because they all of a sudden have it, but because they are now able to figure out this is what they’ve had all along and why life has been so difficult for them. There are studies that have been conducted already in the UK and are being conducted in the US that show many adults who previously were simply labeled severe learning disabled are being found to fall on the spectrum. And the numbers of adults on the spectrum are being found more and more to be the same as the number of children today. These are preliminary studies, and obviously show more research is needed. I have a suspicion also, that once the DSMV starts being used in May, the number of diagnoses of ASD is going to change again.

    Like

  45. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Mr. Wallace (is it another Joe Clone?):

    Multiple vaccine doses have resulted in up to 145,000 child deaths in past 20 years

    Nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.

    “Studies” by a biased journalist and a computer scientist who does not understand basic statistics are not valid.

    All you are doing is spamming this thread with inane comments and are providing no solutions to a real problem.

    Like

  46. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    @Chris – I thought you said studies were done by real people?
    I guess you make Shawn’s point for him.

    Like

  47. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    The real people need to be qualified. Neither Miller nor Goldman have the mathematical acumen to conduct those “studies.” Plus they both have biased conflicts of interests. Now, either stop posting nonsense or propose a viable plan to protected babies from pertussis.

    Like

  48. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    So you do makes Shawn’s point for him.

    Like

  49. February 14, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    @WW – those studies used bad data…so in this case, it actually typifies the issues with “some” research.

    Like

  50. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    Again, your analysis Lawrence. Others may have a different analysis.

    Like

  51. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Mr. Wallace and Mr. Siegal, please post the title, journal and dates from qualified researchers that the Tdap is more dangerous than tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis.

    No more excuses.

    Like

  52. February 14, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    @WW – Others, who may be uneducated, may have a different view – which would just so happen to be the wrong one…..

    Like

  53. February 14, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    @WW – here a good explanation as to why that particular study is garbage:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/

    Like

  54. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    @Lawrence – wow, maybe you should be in charge my-man. Hate to waste all of that education and knowledge on a little site like this.

    Like

  55. William Wallace
    February 14, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Again, another opinion. You can do this all day long with studies, any study.

    Like

  56. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    Some studies from qualified people:

    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story:

    After two
    infants died within 24 h of receiving DTP, the Ministry of Health and Welfare eliminated whole-cell pertussis vaccine altogether. They later allowed it only for children older than 2 years. Pertussis coverage for infants fell from nearly 80% in 1974 to 10% in 1976.13 A pertussis epidemic occurred in 1979 with more than 13 000 cases and 41 deaths. Japan began replacing whole-cell with acellular pertussis vaccines in 1981, and a striking fall in pertussis incidence followed (figure 2).

    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.:

    Vaccine refusers had a 23-fold increased risk for pertussis when compared with vaccine acceptors, and 11% of pertussis cases in the entire study population were attributed to vaccine refusal.

    Like

  57. February 14, 2013 at 8:05 pm

    No excuses needed, Chris. Though I think it is, I didn’t say the Tdap was more dangerous than tetanus – from which, by the way, 80% of people recover. There were 7 deaths reported to the CDC in 2009 associated with the Tdap vaccine, and over 30 permanent disabilities, and VAERS is a broken system – few actual serious adverse reactions get reported. The CDC shows 20 deaths from tetanus for the three-year period 1998 – 2000; 20% had been vaccinated, status unknown in the other 80%.

    Again, research the behavior of the CDC surrounding the claim that the polio vaccine eradicated polio. They pulled the same maneuver in 1956 in the U.S. that the WHO pulled in India in 1996, when the polio vaccination campaign was stepped up there; they changed the definition and labeling protocol of the disease – drastically – creating the illusion over the following years that the disease incidence was declining. It’s remarkable, really, the size of the deception – and then the hubris to hoist that illusory success as a banner of the industry! For newcomers to this thread, the link:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/great-mothers-and-others-questioning-vaccines/now-ya-see-it-the-polio-caper/522168097823233

    Like

  58. Lawrence
    February 14, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    God forbid anyone takes medical advice or history lessons from Facebook.

    A better resource is:

    http://m.historyofvaccines.org/

    Like

  59. Lawrence
    February 14, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    I can’t wait to hear the “real” story on what happened to Smallpox or rinderpest.

    Like

  60. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    Mr. Siegel:

    There were 7 deaths reported to the CDC in 2009 associated with the Tdap vaccine, and over 30 permanent disabilities, and VAERS is a broken system

    What must you read and understand before using the VAERS database at its official portal: http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ?

    The CDC shows 20 deaths from tetanus for the three-year period 1998 – 2000; 20% had been vaccinated, status unknown in the other 80%.

    Citation needed. And there is a reason that you need to get a tetanus booster vaccine every ten years. Fun fact about tetanus: even if you survive tetanus, you do not get immunity from it, you can get again immediately. And, ooh, 80% recover: what about the remaining 20%? So when was your last tetanus booster?

    Perhaps I confused you with “Vaccine Risks”, but your first comment did assert:

    It introduces potentially infectious microbes, immune system exciters, known neurotoxins, maverick strands of foreign DNA and RNA and unknown contaminants through the back door, if you will – the limbs – precluding a full immune response.

    You were posting lots of scary stuff without any supporting evidence (youtube channels and facebook pages do not count). So, yeah, you need to post the actual factual scientific studies that show the Tdap vaccine is more dangerous than tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis. Plus, this article is about protecting babies, so if you have a better plan to keep babies from getting pertussis then to share it with us.

    No more excuses, nor sidestepping by changing the subject to another *disease.

    * Hint, the only thing pertussis and polio have in common is that the start with a “p.” One is a bacteria, the other is a virus.

    Like

  61. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 8:26 pm

    Lawrence:

    I can’t wait to hear the “real” story on what happened to Smallpox or rinderpest.

    Pleas, do not let anyone go off topic. Mr. Siegel made an assertion, and he needs to provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies from qualified researchers to support that assertion about vaccination for pertussis.

    Like

  62. Cynthia
    February 14, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Chris, you know that the best protection against an infant getting pertussis is quarantine. You quarantined your son because he was not able to be vaccinated (not that I’m recommending it). No shot is certain to give protection, but some are better than others. As you yourselves admit, the acellular pertussis vaccine isn’t very effective at all. Even vaccinating every single person around a newborn and the newborn himself is still going to permit those people on whom the shot didn’t work to give the baby pertussis. Which means that the only way to protect him is through quarantine. It’s not that big a deal, you’d just have to educate the country and get parents thinking about bringing in grandmothers or elderly neighbors to care for the infant if the mother had to work. With alternates in case the grandmothers started to come down with something. Churches could get involved with the mission to protect newborns. It’s not good that you don’t want to contemplate getting on board since you know your vaccinate everyone once a week and twice on Sunday still isn’t going to protect these newborns. Why did you choose to quarantine your son rather than badger everyone around you to get vaxed when he was a baby?

    Like

  63. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Excellent, Cynthia. So how would this quarantine work? I wonder, since grandparents and elderly neighbors could also get pertussis, so that does not seem like a good idea.

    Since pertussis is in the community (and even more so if you stop all pertussis vaccination) the mother and baby should have no contact with the outside world. The father would be go live somewhere else, since he can bring pertussis home. All older children should be sent to live elsewhere since they can bring pertussis home from school.

    Then there will be no well baby check ups, since the mother and baby are not allowed to leave the quarantine. All food, diapers, etc, need to be delivered, and on and on for an entire year.

    Like

  64. Lawrence
    February 14, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    @Chris – sorry I saw where that was going (eradication denial). I shouldn’t egg them on, since they do such a good job making themselves look foolish.

    @cia Parker (jeez another sock puppet) – perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the Perfect World and Nirvana Fallacies, because you just became the poster child for them with that last post.

    I can’t even begin to point out the wrongness and faulty logic in the entire screed.

    Go away! Take your lies elsewhere.

    Like

  65. Cynthia
    February 14, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    So how did you manage it, Chris? It’s not impossible, it has been done many times before. How has quarantine traditionally been managed? It doesn’t have to be perfect. Were the 18 babies who died of pertussis last year in any kind of quarantine?

    Law, maybe you should turn your insults on Chris, who is guilty of having successfully quarantined her son to protect him from getting pertussis.

    Like

  66. Cynthia
    February 14, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    Shawn,
    I’m grateful to you for your comments, thank you. And you, too, William. I have MS from a vaccine reaction, and my daughter autism from two reactions. Of course when you hear the same story coming from thousands of parents, you have to recognize there’s something truth in it. And of course you can stack up pharma-funded studies twenty feet high to keep out the hordes of the vaccine-damaged, but why would you want to? (rhetorical question, you guys are free to jump right in with your reasons)

    You’re right, Shawn, of course it’s impossible to monitor every single reaction in every single person after getting a vaccine. Those who say that vaccines are safe are just trying to hide all the times when they aren’t. Has any reputable study proven that 999,999 people are completely unscathed by vaccines, but the unfortunate millionth is the hapless, unique victim of vaccine damage, fallen for the greater good? You have a citation for that, Law? But we have a lot of studies and a lot of evidence from affected people that are allowing us to put together the picture of what happens to many as a consequence of receiving a vaccine. And it isn’t pretty.

    And again, you’re right about the terrifying numbers, Shawn. It’s one in fifty kids with autism now, one in twenty-nine boys (in some places, Utah and New Jersey are the worst). Up from one in 88 born in 2000, announced last April. Up from one in 150, which was considered mind-numbing when they announced it on the Today show in 2003. Up from three in ten thousand in the 1970s, up from zero in 1930. And now it’s lah-de-dah, who cares? They’ve always been with us, and in the same numbers, you know, we’ve got to make our pharma bucks while the sun shines, because après nous, le déluge. You’ve got to read this article, Shawn and William: http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/09/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-967-impossible.html
    No one not brain-dead could read it and continue to talk about autism not being on the increase at all, it’s all just better diagnosing. Although I guess it’s all those already brain-damaged by vaccines that are buying it.

    Eventually people will just stop having children, when the choice is between the carefree childless life and taking on the challenges of children with autism.

    And Joe or whoever it was was right, Law, don’t you think you should spend more time with your sons? Are you trying to make enough for their college education?

    Like

  67. novalox
    February 14, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    @cia

    By the same twisted reasoning of yours, should you be taking care of your daughter instead of posting pseudoscience and lies to the internet, causing untold harm to others?

    Like

  68. February 14, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    @Cia – you’re a scoundrel and a liar, which has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, so I’m not insulting you, I am merely pointing out a fact.

    As for the rest of your rant, again, you’re the poster-child for both the Nirvana & Perfect World fallacy, because when quarantines were necessary, there were so, because we had no other way to prevent the spread of disease – unlike today, where mass vaccinations have reduced the incidence of childhood VPDs to nearly zero in this country.

    You constantly downplay the risks of these diseases – calling those that do die (like the children who had died this flu season or those who succumbed to pertussis) nothing more than acceptable losses in your war against vaccines…..

    As for your questioning vaccine safety, perhaps you’d like to re-acquaint yourself with this:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/index.html

    Which contains real, verifiable scientific information on vaccines, not your “spook stories” that seem to constantly change, depending on your mood or the perceived audience.

    I participate here because I want my children to grow up in a world with less disease than I have lived with, than what my parents and grandparents lived with – and you and your ilk want nothing more than to go back to the “Good Ole Days” where these diseases were endured, not because they were “mild,” but because the people had no choice but to watch their kids get sick & die.

    And we’re the horrible ones? Look in the mirror Cia – you’ve got blood on your hands, and you know it.

    Like

  69. February 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    Chris, it’s time you started doing your own homework. I’ll tell you how to start: search “deaths from tetanus U.S. 2008”. You’ll find several CDC links, and likely the same page from which I took my information.

    Again, those numbers are practically useless anyway, and can be argued back and forth endlessly. I’m sidestepping no issues, but addressing the one that matters: trust. Research the behavior of the entity you so believe provides you truthful information – the CDC. They re-defined paralytic polio and revamped the labeling protocol for non-paralytic polio; they pulled polio eradication out of a hat.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/great-mothers-and-others-questioning-vaccines/now-ya-see-it-the-polio-caper/522168097823233

    Like

  70. Gray Falcon
    February 14, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    Shawn, why should we trust you? For all we know, you might be in the iron lung business, hoping to get back the money you lost to the polio vaccine.

    Like

  71. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    Cynthia:

    So how did you manage it, Chris?

    By asking if the children my son came into contact with was vaccinated. I never said there was a quarantine.

    Mr. Siegel, you made a claim, therefore you must provide the evidence. In case you haven’t noticed I have posted several studies. That two included quotes showing that when pertussis vaccination is reduced, kids get pertussis.

    Like

  72. February 14, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    My claim is that the CDC – the vaccine industry – faked the eradication of polio. This is my last post, Chris, since this will be the third or fourth time I’ve linked to the chronicle of that farce – and though it is, indeed, a Facebook link, so that there is no misunderstanding, it provides links to a transcript of a panel held by the Illinois Medical Society in which three PhD statisticians and an MD thoroughly discuss the then-ongoing problems with the polio vaccine campaign, and lay out with complete clarity the changes to the diagnostic parameters of the disease that eliminated up to two thirds of the cases of paralytic polio thenceforth to be diagnosed. I address the bulk of the charade – the change in labeling protocol of non-paralytic polio, as well, as well as the final nail in the coffin of credibility, the CDC’s re-routing of all cases of suspected polio to themselves for final analysis.

    And obviously, this isn’t really meant for you, for just as obviously you have no interest in disturbing the waters of your paradigm. So be it. Hopefully there is someone reading with a genuine interest in reading something other than what comes their way through vaccine industry press releases and pharma-backed studies.

    Just for the record, for sixty-four years I had no doubt in the efficacy of vaccination – until I discovered the nature of some the damage left in its wake, including severe autoimmune diseases and death, and began researching, out of concern for my grandkids. If you’re serious about guarding the health of children, you’ll research; start at VaccineSafetyConference.com/videos.html , and view immunologist Dr. Yehuda Shoenfeld’s presentation.

    Gray, you shouldn’t trust me; you should do your own research. Iron lungs, by the way, have been disused for years – they’ve been replaced by respirators. If you too, like Chris, will not read the material I provided, so that, if you do have argument, you can provide it in substantive and cogent fashion, instead of coming back and making nonsensical comments about my profiteering in iron lungs, than this comment is not meant for you, either.

    Goodnight, gentlemen.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/great-mothers-and-others-questioning-vaccines/now-ya-see-it-the-polio-caper/522168097823233

    Like

  73. Lara Lohne
    February 14, 2013 at 11:41 pm

    cia, you seem to not fully comprehend the idea of quarantine. Parents going to work, and then coming home, older siblings going to school and then coming home. neighbors and church members coming over and taking turns caring for the infant and then leaving to who knows where. NONE of that is permitted in a quarantine situation. Nobody is allowed to leave, and nobody is allowed to enter the premises where the quarantine is in effect without wearing hazmat gear. Nobody would volunteer to come over and help care for the infant while the mother goes to work, the mother would not be allowed to go to work, nor would the father, nor the siblings allowed to go to school or play with neighborhood children or have friends over or anything that is a normal part of life for everyone. Nobody would be able to even go shopping. Now, given that proper quarantine has been explained to you, how do you propose that every family of every newborn everywhere around the world quarantine their infant if they are not allowed to do all the normal things that people do? It is unrealistic, and anyone who has the ability to think logically and reasonably can see that.

    Like

  74. Chris
    February 14, 2013 at 11:55 pm

    Mr. Siegel:

    My claim is that the CDC – the vaccine industry – faked the eradication of polio.

    So what? You don’t seem to understand that this article is about pertussis, and that you made a claim on your first post that vaccines are dangerous:

    It introduces potentially infectious microbes, immune system exciters, known neurotoxins, maverick strands of foreign DNA and RNA and unknown contaminants through the back door, if you will – the limbs – precluding a full immune response.

    You have been asked to submit actual data to support your assertions, and have failed to do so. I have read your material, and found it was totally off topic and not supported by actual evidence. Plus some of the papers I posted were not from the CDC, but included data from other public health authorities. Here is another:
    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

    Which says:

    An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

    Do tell us how the CDC controls Japanese public health.

    Like

  75. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 1:47 am

    I have discovered Mr. Siegel created this graph.

    Like

  76. novalox
    February 15, 2013 at 2:57 am

    Chris :
    I have discovered Mr. Siegel created this graph.

    Wow, what was the data he used to create that?

    How in the world does someone extrapolate that in 2030 all US boys and 2040 all US girls will have autism?

    That just smacks of really bad use of statistics that even a high school student would see as wrong or using extremely limited data to cook up a result that shawn siegel wanted.

    Like

  77. February 15, 2013 at 7:03 am

    @Novalox – so, he’s the guy that came up with the horrible graph – the one that shows that the general population will be 100% autistic before girls or boys…..huge logic & math fail.

    Like

  78. February 15, 2013 at 10:23 am

    @Novalox – the logic fail there is enormous, because at minimum, he’s projecting that every single person pretty much alive today, who isn’t diagnosed with autism, will be at some point in the future? You, me, even him? That doesn’t even make sense on the surface, much less taking a look at the deeper math, which also doesn’t compute, at all…..

    Like

  79. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 10:51 am

    Novalox:

    Wow, what was the data he used to create that?

    Exactly the same he demonstrated in the thread: absolutely none.

    Like

  80. Cynthia
    February 15, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    The point is not that every single person alive today will get autism, only young children develop autism, usually from vaccines, while older people who react will usually do so with autoimmune or neurological conditions that may cause paralysis or mitochondrial disorders. The adults who continue to get the flu vaccine etc. may develop Alzheimer’s, other dementias, autoimmune disease, gluten sensitivity, or Parkinson’s, but not autism.

    And this is a projection based on the assumption that vaccination rates among children will continue as they have been in the past. Huge numbers of parents are now rejecting some or all vaccines for their children, which may stem the increase in autism.

    I guess you saw that the state Senate in Utah, with the highest rate of autism in the nation (all those authority-respecting, family-oriented Mormons), is debating a bill on how to pay for the inconceivable costs of the autism epidemic? Apparently several senators don’t want to pay for it at all, a solution which is unlikely to prove satisfactory in the long run. One in 47 children in Utah is now diagnosed with autism, the highest rate in the country, according the the CDC.

    I just reread your captioned photograph of the baby at the head of this article, which said that everyone could kiss the baby if they had gotten their Tdap. Is this not irresponsible, since you know that large numbers of appropriately vaccinated people can still transmit pertussis to vulnerable newborns? Shouldn’t you advocate a policy of both (ineffective) vaccine cocooning AND quarantine? Or at least not allowing people to kiss the baby in his most vulnerable months?

    Like

  81. February 15, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    @Cynthia – I’m advocating against liars, people who don’t understand basic science, and people who push misinterpretations of data, bad research, bad data, and scare tactics to try to work against the vaccine program….

    And cia, the point is that the graph that was created doesn’t have a caveat – it shows that 100% of the general population will be autistic before 100% of boys or 100% of girls are autistic – please kindly explain how that is even possible (or just admit that the graph is bad science and bad mathematics).

    Like

  82. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Cynthia:

    Is this not irresponsible, since you know that large numbers of appropriately vaccinated people can still transmit pertussis to vulnerable newborns?

    Citation needed. I have already posted more than one paper that showed vaccination does reduce the transmission of pertussis, now you need to support your assertions with real verifiable documentation.

    Shouldn’t you advocate a policy of both (ineffective) vaccine cocooning AND quarantine?

    You still don’t understand what “quarantine” means?

    Or at least not allowing people to kiss the baby in his most vulnerable months?

    Have you never held a baby before? How can you resist the lovely baby smell and those wonderful little cheeks? Oh, and pertussis is also transmitted through the air, not just from kisses.

    You have not proposed anything more effective than cocooning by making sure all older children and adults have had Tdap.

    Like

  83. novalox
    February 15, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @cynthia

    [citation needed]

    Like

  84. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @Chris

    “Citation needed. I have already posted more than one paper that showed vaccination does reduce the transmission of pertussis, now you need to support your assertions with real verifiable documentation.

    REDUCE is not the same as won’t. I understand Cynthia’s point, why would you risk it? Does not make any sense.

    @Shawn
    I appreciate your information and will be saving it and passing it on to people I know. Thank you!

    Like

  85. February 15, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    @Kris – given his huge mathematics fail, I wouldn’t put too much stock in his information.

    Like

  86. Gray Falcon
    February 15, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    @Kris Haynes- Staying on the sidewalks won’t guarantee that you won’t get struck by a car. Does that mean it’s perfectly safe to walk in the middle of the street? Would banning walking be a better solution? Also, if you pass on information that polio eradication was faked, people will start to wonder what color the sky is on your home planet.

    Like

  87. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 3:14 pm
  88. lilady
    February 15, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    I thought CIA Parker was banned from this site? Now Cynthia Parker is posting under “Cynthia”

    Just go away Parker…and take your nonsense with you. I feel sorry for your child because you claim she is vaccine-injured.

    Like

  89. lilady
    February 15, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    @ Kris Haynes:

    Have you seen this http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/19/quoth-dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-are/

    Scroll on down to # 137 for the posts from Suzanne Humphries, the MD who now practices homeopathy. She calls vaccines “disease matter” and recommends Vitamin C in lieu of pertussis vaccines.

    Like

  90. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Thanks for the info lilady….I see you and others here commented as well. Very good read.

    Like

  91. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    Kris Haynes:

    REDUCE is not the same as won’t. I understand Cynthia’s point, why would you risk it? Does not make any sense.

    One of the papers showed that children who were not vaccinated had a 23 times higher chance of pertussis, than those who were vaccinated (and this study was before the Tdap was being encouraged for older children and adults). So how is 0% protection better than 80% protection?

    I think the thing you are using is the “Nirvana Fallacy.” You want it to be 100% perfect, which is impossible. Do you let your kids ride their bikes without helmets? I know that if they fall off they will get hurt, but the helmet prevents most (but not all) head injuries. Some protection is better than none.

    What is your objection to adults and older children to getting the Tdap vaccine? Do you avoid getting tetanus boosters every ten years? Provide some actual scientific documentation in the form of a title, journal and date of a PubMed indexed study that shows the Tdap is more dangerous than tetanus and pertussis. Do not use Youtube videos, and do not cite raw VAERS reports.

    By the way, Mr. Siegel has said he will not comment anymore. He never contributed anything other than unsupported assertions and conspiracy theories. His graph showed three lines, “boys”, “girls” and “general population.”. In the real world “general population” would equal “boys” plus “girls.” He had 100% of “general population” becoming autistic the same year that only 70% of the “girls” were autistic. One has had to fail elementary school math to make that kind of error.

    Like

  92. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    <
    One of the papers showed that children who were not vaccinated had a 23 times higher chance of pertussis, than those who were vaccinated (and this study was before the Tdap was being encouraged for older children and adults). So how is 0% protection better than 80% protection?

    Some protection is better than no protection. But the billboard I saw says you better get vaccinated before you kiss, which makes people believe that they are protected once getting the vaccine. Sounds very dangerous and foolish to be spreading that kind of information.

    Like

  93. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    You are reading too much into a billboard. It is encouraging adults to get the Tdap. Why is that objectionable and dangerous?

    Like

  94. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    It is very misleading. You are safe if you get the vaccine and not safe if you don’t. It’s not really that black and white now is it.

    Like

  95. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    And most people know that. You really need to explain more specifically why it is objectionable and dangerous. But you can start by answering two questions:

    1. When was your last tetanus booster?

    2. Is the following billboard also dangerous:
    http://www.injuryfree.org/resources/uploaded/!!!bikesafety_SReda.pdf

    Like

  96. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    People know if you ride a bike without a helmet you might hit your head and it might hurt.
    People also believe that vaccines are 100% effective, so those bill boards are misleading.

    Like

  97. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 7:50 pm

    Create a circle of protection around your baby…that’s what it says. You and I know that isn’t true, but most people don’t.

    Like

  98. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    Kris Haynes:

    People also believe that vaccines are 100% effective, so those bill boards are misleading.

    Who are those people? Is it all people, or just some people? Be specific, and provide the source of your data.

    Again:

    1: When was your last tetanus booster?

    Create a circle of protection around your baby…that’s what it says. You and I know that isn’t true, but most people don’t.

    And even a circle with a few holes is better than no circle. Again, some is better than none.

    You seem to be saying that the promotion of adults getting the Tdap is a flawed, so if you have a better plan to protect infants from pertussis, please share it with us.

    Like

  99. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Sorry that you don’t just get it Chris. The average person believes that vaccines are 100% effective, thanks to bill boards like these. Just talk to people when out and about and you will see. Sounds like you are way out of touch with the general public in regards to vaccines.

    Like

  100. February 15, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    @Kris – I don’t know who you are talking to, but the educated individuals in my community understand the science behind vaccines……perhaps you need to associate with a better class of people (one’s that aren’t so anti-Science).

    Like

  101. lilady
    February 15, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    Excuse me Kris Haynes, if I commented on your YouTube link to Suzanne Humphries and her seminar on polio vaccine. I just *assumed* that you were going off-topic and promoting a quack homeopathic who is utterly clueless about immunology and epidemiology. Here’s what Rationalwiki has to say about her:

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Suzanne_Humphries

    BTW, what is your opinion of Humphries recommendation about Vitamin C…in lieu of pertussis vaccines?

    Like

  102. novalox
    February 15, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    I guess shawn siegel has proven himself to be a liar, based on that awful graph and not putting up valid references.

    Like

  103. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    Kris Haynes:

    The average person believes that vaccines are 100% effective, thanks to bill boards like these.

    Citation needed. I don’t get it because you just repeat the same assertion without any evidence. How about telling how you would change the billboard and what your plan is to protect babies from pertussis.

    Again, when was your last tetanus shot? I had a Tdap in the July of 2011. Do have something against tetanus boosters?

    Like

  104. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    @Lawrence….quite contrary….most people believe in your science, so therefore they think vaccines are safe and effective. Most people don’t think twice about vaccines, they do as they are told by the Doc and believe they are getting protected.

    My “class” of people as you say actually do the research and make their own decisions.

    Like

  105. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    @lilady….unfortunately, I don’t think Rationalwiki is a very good source of information. Seems extreme the other way. Like a Natural News.

    Don’t know too much about Vit C for treatment but am interested in learning more.

    Like

  106. Kris Haynes
    February 15, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Seriously Chris, you are not keeping up if you think the average person knows anything more about vaccines than what the doc tells them.

    Like

  107. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    I’m not keeping up because everyone I know is aware of the limits of any medical procedure. Plus we know that the vaccines are much safer than the diseases, and herd immunity is needed to protect the vulnerable. And still, you have not made a case to support your concerns.

    Now, about these questions:

    1 When was your last tetanus booster?

    2. How would change the billboard to satisfy your concerns?

    3. What is your viable plan to protect babies from pertussis?

    Like

  108. Chris
    February 15, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    Plus at every vaccine clinics are obligated to give this:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-td-tdap.pdf

    Now, again, what do you have against adults and teenagers getting the Tdap as their tetanus booster?

    Like

  109. Cynthia
    February 16, 2013 at 11:32 am

    Citation on 90% of Vermont children getting pertussis last year having been appropriately vaccinated. Easy to google Dr. Anne Schuchat, CDC doctor, saying last summer that most of the people getting pertussis in the US last year having been vaccinated (41,000 at end of year count, and those were only the ones officially diagnosed, most people don’t go to a doctor even when they have it).
    http://vtdigger.org/2012/10/08/90-percent-of-whooping-cough-cases-in-vermont-among-vaccinated-children/

    Chris, obviously the problem is that if you don’t tell people that even vaccinated people may still be able to give pertussis to a newborn (or anyone else, but newborns are the only problematic group), they just cruise along without even thinking about it. It did not even enter my head when I took my babv with me to monthly La Leche League meetings at the Newman Center that she might catch pertussis there. I had misguidedly taken her to get DTaP injections at 2, 4, and 6 months, and did not give the issue another thought. But she caught pertussis there, but fortunately, that was at the early January meeting when she was eight months old, and her airways had developed enough that she coughed up copious amounts of mucus very efficiently, and was not in danger from the disease. But it would have been the same if she had happened to be younger, except that the disease might easily have been much more dangerous for her.

    When your son was small, Chris, the vaccine used was the DPT, which, although it caused so much death and brain damage that it was taken off the market in the US, replaced by the current, much less effective DTaP (acellular pertussis rather than whole cell), it was much more effective at preventing pertussis.

    Of course little babies are sweet and cuddly. But if parents knew that everyone around might give their newborn pertussis, vaccinated or not, is it really worth a few seconds of pleasure at cuddling and kissing a newborn if his life might be put at risk? It should become automatic to keep everyone away from close contact with the baby until he is few months old to the extent reasonably possible. If people are not informed of the danger, most people will not know. If 80-90% of the people who got pertussis last year had been appropriately vaccinated (or whatever figure you prefer, Dr. Anne Schuchat said MOST of the sick had been vaccinated), statistically that is the percentage of babies who died from having been infected by a vaccinated person. Eighteen people died of pertussis in the US last year, all of them newborns. Statistically fourteen to sixteen of those babies were infected by an appropriately vaccinated person, in some cases people who were sickening with pertussis but couldn’t resist kissing the sweet, precious little baby. The billboards told them that was fine, as long as they had gotten their Tdap. The parents believed it was fine as long as the kisser had gotten her Tdap.

    If you do not tell them the whole story, you have failed in your duty to protect children from contagious disease. And it makes it appear as though your interest lay only in making people line up to pay for their vaxes rather than in protecting children.

    Like

  110. Cynthia
    February 16, 2013 at 11:38 am

    Kris Haynes,
    Vitamin C is remarkably effective at treating pertussis ( a bacterial disease) and all viral diseases. Vitamin A is very effective at reducing complications and mortality from measles and other diseases. If they were not regarded so widely as cheap, easily available vitamins, they would be revered as miracle drugs. Dr. Humphries has details of her vitamin C protocol for newborns (and others) who get pertussis on the Internet, easy to google. Antibiotics do not work to treat pertussis and often make things worse by killing the helpful bacteria in the gut. Hilary Butler has lots of evidence and studies supporting the many uses of common vitaming (and selenium) in preventing and treating disease in Just a Little Prick.

    Like

  111. Gray Falcon
    February 16, 2013 at 11:50 am

    We already covered the math on your claims about the majority getting the disease being vaccinated. Do you think that repeating that lie will make it true?

    Like

  112. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    Cynthia, a journalist led blog is not a citation. The papers I have posted on this thread are real citations, including the one showed kids without pertussis vaccination are 23 times more likely to get pertussis.

    Kris Haynes:

    Seriously Chris, you are not keeping up if you think the average person knows anything more about vaccines than what the doc tells them.

    and

    My “class” of people as you say actually do the research and make their own decisions.

    In addition to telling us how you would change the billboard to make it less “dangerous”, and your viable plan to protect babies from pertussis: Do tell us what kind of “research” your “class of people” do that make more qualified than a medical doctor. Because I have not seen one real citation of any actual research from you.

    I suspect that you don’t bother getting tetanus boosters. Lots are adults skip it, which is why tetanus cases most often occur in adults. A wee bit of advice: if you skip the tetanus boosters stay away from gardening. I love gardening, especially since I do edible landscaping. So I make sure my tetanus boosters are up to date.

    And for others who are lurking, here is some pertussis arithmetic:

    Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

    950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
    50 unvaccinated persons

    The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

    760 protected persons
    190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
    50 unvaccinated persons

    There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

    760 protected persons without pertussis

    38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
    152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

    10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
    40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

    This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

    Like

  113. cia p.
    February 16, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    CDC Press Briefing Transcript July 19, 2012

    Pertussis Epidemic in Washington State – 2012 Telebriefing

    Dr. Anne Schuchat is CDC director for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases.

    Dr. Anne Schuchat
    ‘We know there are places around the country where there are large numbers of people who aren’t vaccinated. However, we don’t think those exemptors are driving this current wave. We think it is a bad thing that people aren’t getting vaccinated or exempting, but we cannot blame this wave on that phenomenon. Next question.’

    Quote by CDC doctor Anne Schuchat, who says that the unvaccinated did not drive the pertussis epidemic in the US last summer.

    This means that regardless of how many people are protected for some unknown and often very short period of time from getting pertussis, a lot of people are not protected and are getting it despite being vaccinated. If you want to make sure your baby doesn’t get it, you’d better keep him away from exposure to other people to the greatest degree possible. It’s still possible that he get it, but you will have reduced the odds.

    Lauren, if you really want the citations of studies that back up what I said about the dangers of the DTaP, look at Neil Miler’s Vaccine Safety Manual pp. 115-140, with 180 citations of studies referenced pp. 496-500; Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s Make an Informed Vaccine Decision pp. 63-74, citations of 77 studies pp. 74-77; Randall Neustaedter’s The Vaccine Guide, pp. 223-234, citations of studies of all vaccines considered on a single list of references pp. 297-335. I obviously cannot replicate all of this information here.

    Kris Haynes, I appreciate your intelligence and contribution!

    Shawn, I drilled into your name and listened to some of the interviews on your Youtube channel, they’re superb! I’ve always admired Philip Incao, and read a lot of his articles on child health care when my daughter was little. Great work!

    And GF, great, if you want to get vaxed, so be it, but if you want to keep newborns from dying of pertussis, as 18 did in the US last year, it would be wise to do whatever you want to with the vaccines (respecting that everyone has a right to make their own vaccine decisions), but also keep newborns away from other people until they’re at least three or four months old. Handing the baby around to everyone in the extended family at the Thanksgiving table in unwise, even if everyone has gotten his Tdap. Leaving the baby in the church nursery is unwise, even if every baby there has gotten a DTaP, even though asthma, allergies, seizure disorders, SIDS, and autism are not contagious. The breakthrough pertussis is.

    Like

  114. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Cia: “Neil Miler’s Vaccine Safety Manual pp.”

    Miller has absolutely no training or education in medicine and immunology.

    It is telling that you do not post the actual URL of the transcript, because it looks like you are cherry picking.

    Like

  115. cia p.
    February 16, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    And Chris, on the point we’re talking about, it doesn’t matter if unvaccinated children are 23 times more likely to get pertussis. If people are that scared of pertussis, fine, get it, I”m glad that we got the natural disease (through the back door, so to speak), and now have many decades of natural immunity. It’s not pleasant and it lasts a long time, but it’s very rarely dangerous in those over the newborn stage. And natural immunity lasts between thirty and seventy years, unlike the span of as little as three years that vaccine immunity sometimes lasts, when it works at all. But to each his own. The point here is that huge numbers of people can get the shot and THINK they are protected from getting pertussis, and may kiss every baby on the block, when they really AREN’T PROTECTED, because the vaccine ISN’T THAT EFFECTIVE. People should know this, and then do whatever they want to.

    Like

  116. cia p.
    February 16, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    Chris,
    I’m not very good at using computers, and don’t know how to cut both an excerpt and a URL at the same time. I would be surprised if it could be done, but maybe it could. Here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/t0719_pertussis_epidemic.html

    Like

  117. Lara Lohne
    February 16, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Lying again cia. Infants are not the only problematic group. Anyone who gets pertussis suffers from it. Infants are the most likely to die from it, but are far from the only group that will suffer permanently from it. I was not an infant when I got pertussis and left me with permanent lung damage, I was 17. You should just go away, you are nothing more then an irritation at this point. You use your child’s disability to further an agenda that is dead and rotting. You claim over and over that your child has autism, but she’s never been diagnosed. You claim she suffered encephalopathy from a vaccine as a newborn, but you never took her to the hospital, so again she was never diagnosed. The really funny (NOT) thing about that claim is encephalopathy isn’t even a possible reaction to the hepB vaccine so right away we know you are lying about that. I am still of the opinion that you shook your baby because she wouldn’t stop crying and are trying to cover it up by blaming vaccines. You wouldn’t be the first anti-vaccinationist to do so.

    Like

  118. novalox
    February 16, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    @cia

    Sockpuppeting again?

    Like

  119. Cia P.
    February 16, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    GF, et al, The Vermont article I gave a link to (I just found it randomly half an hour ago, because I evidently know how to google information better than you do) cited Patsy Kelso, Vermont Department of Health epidemiologist, as making the statements that 90% of the kids who got pertussis there last year having been confirmed as having been appropriately vaccinated and got the disease anyway, and that the problem was that the vaccine wasn’t very effective. You’re always saying that I need to cite epidemiologists, but when I do, you say they aren’t believable, evidently because they aren’t paid by Merck or Glaxo Smith Kline. And you wonder why 70% of the parents in some California counties are taking vaccine exemptions for their kindergartners, according to the Sacramento Bee?

    Like

  120. Cia P.
    February 16, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    Chris,
    Why are you going on and on about when we got our last tetanus booster? When I got mine, it paralyzed both my arms starting the day of the vax for several days, brachial plexus neuropathy, and I went on to develop MS. So I’m on the fence about tetanus vaccinations. I understand the desirability of protection from tetanus, but, as Shawn says, most people who get it nowadays survive (and even more if they get vitamin C therapy), and it isn’t common. I recognize that it may be so uncommon because most people have been vaxed, and the protection usually lasts a lot longer than ten years, often as long as thirty or forty years, which may be why it’s so uncommon now. On the other hand, permanent neurological disability caused by the vaccine must be a possibility factored into the risk/benefit analysis. I think there’s a good case to be made for either side, and it must be left up to the individual’s choice.

    Like

  121. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    Mr. Miller has no training in any kind of appropriate field. He is a journalist with an agenda.

    Thank you for the link, here is the part you should have included:

    We’re also seeing high rates in older children as well. We’re seeing high rates among children 10 years of age. We realize that by age 10, immunity can wane from the early-childhood vaccines that kids get. That is why we ended up recommending a booster of pertussis containing vaccine at 11-to-12 years of age.

    It is recognized that the vaccine is imperfect. Hence the recommendation for another dose. And the State of Washington paid for the Tdap vaccines for that age group and older, which is why our family doctor made sure my hubby got one with his flu shot last fall (I had already had one earlier).

    “And natural immunity lasts between thirty and seventy years, unlike the span of as little as three years that vaccine immunity sometimes lasts, when it works at all. ”

    Again, we have been over this before. You are using a computer math simulation for that claim (and never answered my simple question about the left side of their graph), yet a real test on real kids found that “natural immunity” can fade within a few years. Repeating a falsehood that you have corrected on many time does not make it true: Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.

    “If people are that scared of pertussis, fine, get it, ”

    What is not fine are persons who are promoting false ideas, like it is okay dokay to get the diseases, that “natural immunity” is better, that the Tdap is more dangerous than the diseases and their “research” is better than those by people who have post-graduate degrees in medical fields.

    You, Cia, have a doctorate in Spanish and a law degree, yet you have demonstrated very little ability to do simple mathematics/statistics. You are a prime example why one should “consider the source.” This is I prefer the opinions of people like Gregory Poland, M.D, Peter J. Hotez, M.D., Vincent Racaniello, PhD, and my family doctor over folks like Gary Goldman (Phd, computer science from a non-accredited school), Mike Adams (former computer salesman), and on and on.

    Like

  122. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    Cia:

    When I got mine, it paralyzed both my arms starting the day of the vax for several days, brachial plexus neuropathy, and I went on to develop MS.

    You reported it to VAERS and submitted it to NVICP, right? Most people get a sore arm, you need to provide proof that the Tdap is more dangerous than tetanus with actual studies than your anecdote.

    Like

  123. Cia P.
    February 16, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Quarantine does not have to mean putting the baby in a bubble, though that would be the surest way to protect him. Keeping him in his room at home, with as few caregivers as possible, would usually be sufficient. As you say, a circle of protection with a few holes in it is better than no protection. The baby’s father should probably go to work, come home, and stay out of the baby’s room until he is a few months old. Siblings should come home from school and stay out of the baby’s room. The mother should wash her hands before going to feed, change, or play with the baby. The most cautious people might advocate mask and gloves according to their own lights. Women who have already had the natural disease, and there are many thousands of us now, would be a good pool from which to choose caregivers if the mother had to go out to work. Of course there are still a few holes, but it would be better than leaving the baby among myriad people at daycare, in a church nursery, at a La Leche League meeting. The more people he is close to, the greater the chances that he will catch pertussis.

    Chris, you’d have to throw the cute billboards in the trash, and replace them with much more serious billboards, promoting a two-pronged approach, vaccinate everyone every year (this is obviously a billboard put out by your side), and expose your baby to as few people as possible. Maybe have a photograph of a mother nursing her newborn in the middle of a field filled with flowers, no other people around. TRUST, BUT CARRY A BIG STICK maybe.

    Like

  124. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Cia, you still don’t understand “quarantine.” It means no one comes in or out of the house, and the mother has not contact with anyone. Pertussis is an airborne pathogen, washing hands is not going to prevent spread within a house.

    Like

  125. February 16, 2013 at 4:06 pm

    @Cia – yes, because it is entirely plausible to expect that a father and siblings can be kept 100% away from a newborn for several months – I can’t see how that might have absolutely no impact on the development of paternal or sibling bonds with the child…..you are an idiot.

    Like

  126. Chris
    February 16, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    No, Lawrence, she is not an idiot. But she is a prime example why you do not seek medical advice from lawyers (like Robert Kennedy, Jr and Alan Phillips) and those with a foreign language doctorate (like Harris Coulter, whose day job was as a Russian translator). That can be expanded to journalist (Neil Miller), computer scientists (Gary Goldman, Amy Lansky), engineers (Andy Cutler), chemistry professors (Boyd Haley), computer salesmen (Mike Adams) and doctors working outside their field of expertise who also like to sell their own special nostrums (Joseph Mercola, Mark Geier, Russell Blaylock, Andrew Wakefield, Rashid Buttar, etc).

    Like

  127. C.
    February 16, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    It is only implausible because it is not currently in our social construct. The mother is the only figure crucial to the infant’s early development. If people were really worried about the infant’s catching pertussis, then they would learn how to adjust to keeping the infant as isolated as possible for the first few months. In my opinion, it wouldn’t be worth going to great lengths (although if I had a young baby, I’d stay at home with him if possible and not take him out), and even if he were to develop pertussis, vitamin C treatment and holding him up to someone’s shoulder constantly during the coughing weeks would usually be enough to save his life. One in two hundred newborns with pertussis dies: these two measures I mentioned would improve the mortality rate. Eighteen infants last year died out of well over 41,000 of every age diagnosed with the disease. I’m not going to say a word about whether that’s a lot or a little. Everyone should be apprised of the facts and decide how they think they should proceed. Some people, like my sister-in-law, would go to the greatest lengths, and others would be more relaxed, and they might or might not regret it.

    I’m only back here because I was looking up reactions to feline rhinotracheitis vaccine, and that article I cited earlier opened for some reason, and I saw this:
    “According to the CDC, TDaP is even less effective than DTaP. U.S. officials estimate that the vaccine protects only seven out 10 people. Officials believe that DTaP has an efficacy rate of 80 percent to 90 percent during and right after the five-shot process. After five years, they estimate, the efficacy rate drops to 70 percent.”

    The article actually strongly promotes vaccination, though it seems to have grave reservations about its efficacy. I don’t have time to see if they gave a citation for the CDC reference, but wow! they think the Tdap only protects seven out of ten people?

    Like

  128. Lawrence
    February 16, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    I’d rather be an educator…….too bad there are so many crazy and purposely ignorant people in this word.

    (I’m looking at you “notadoc”)

    Like

  129. novalox
    February 16, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    @dr.s

    Another threat eh? You do know that your comments can be construed as a threat and as such, can be reported as a violation of US and international law.

    All of your threats have been screenshot and if you even dare to try something, you will be reported to the FBI for terrorism.

    Like

  130. Chris
    February 17, 2013 at 1:49 am

    Thank you for enforcing the comment policy. Civility is the basis of any honest debate.

    Like

  131. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    I see you removed the one comment from Lawrence. Thank you!

    What about these comments?

    ” I can’t see how that might have absolutely no impact on the development of paternal or sibling bonds with the child…..you are an idiot.”

    and

    “I’d rather be an educator…….too bad there are so many crazy and purposely ignorant people in this word.

    (I’m looking at you “notadoc”)”

    Why is Lawrence permitted to do this? it is against the comment policy. Why is he allowed to keep posting here?

    Like

  132. novalox
    February 18, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    @hudson

    So you support someone who supports hacking into sites and shutting them down just because it does not fit into your views?

    In other words, you support a terrorist?

    Like

  133. February 18, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    @Hudson – perhaps because my comments are actually germane to subject, as opposed to the abused heaped upon me by the anti-vax folks.

    So, which sock-puppet are you? Joe, perhaps?

    Like

  134. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    novalox, why would you say such a thing? I support no such actions.

    Lawrence, Are you above the rules?

    Like

  135. Gray Falcon
    February 18, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    Hudson, what are you hoping to accomplish?

    Like

  136. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    I belive my request is stated Gray Falcon.

    Like

  137. Lara Lohne
    February 18, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    Hudson, I will admit that some of the regular posters here maybe should reconsider the words they choose to use when responding to a critic who has posted. However, you are, I believe, simply nitpicking at this time attempting to get someone banned who you disagree with, possibly because you have had a difference of views in the past and did or said something that got yourself banned and for some reason you have a personal vendetta against Lawrence. Please make sure your motives for requesting that Lawrence be banned are pure and not tainted by your own biases against him.

    Also, try to keep in mind the discretion to ban someone belongs to the blog moderator and typically, those that have been banned, (there have not been that many) have been banned due to numerous and continuous breaking of the rules, not a one off comment. These same individuals have also been caught in lies about the ‘truth’ they are promoting and have repeatedly used sock puppets to get around being banned for their misbehavior and misinformation in the past, so they can try and continue to spread their lies.

    They know what they are saying is lies, we known what they are saying is lies and please forgive me but human nature sometimes gets the better of people and overrides the logical/rational part of the human mind when a person is repeatedly correcting the same misinformation and lies over and over and over and over (no, that isn’t an exaggeration). Basically patience can run out for certain individuals and certain statements those individuals keep making. If you’ve never had your patience run out, you’re obviously not a parent. Anyway, it gets tiresome, it gets old, it is irksome and sometimes emotion can get in the way. Thus, the occasional one off comment that may not necessarily comply with the rules. But with those that have been banned, it was a way of life for them in the blogosphere. The moderator actually showed a great amount of leniency and tolerance for their antics before it got to the point that it was so disruptive something had to be done. When an individual or group try to take over a blog, it’s time for blog moderators to step in. If you disagree with that, perhaps you should make your own blog and allow it to happen there and see how constructive it is to the purpose for which you began the blog in the first place.

    Like

  138. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Lara, I simply believe in the comment policy and think it should be respected.
    Chris said it best, “Civility is the basis of any honest debate.”

    Like

  139. Lara Lohne
    February 18, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    You’ll forgive me if I remain skeptical as to your motives. You’ve not ever posted here before, at least not under this nym, and the fact you seem to take personal interest in Lawrence specifically, leads a person to believe you have had differences in the past which you may have taken personally and have developed a vendetta against Lawrence.

    Without further information to go by, I must take the limited data at my disposal, and using statistical data from past experiences from ‘random’ posters on this blog, form the hypothesis that this is the situation: you are a previous poster who has had issues with Lawrence in the past and have been banned from posting under your preferred nym, for all the reasons stated in my previous comment and thus have come back under an assumed identity to try and play the ‘double standard card’ when Lawrence does not get banned as you have been because of his one off comment that has been removed per your request. Because more often then not, that’s typically what has happened before under very similar situations.

    Like

  140. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Lara, please feel free to assume whatever you want.

    Like

  141. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Lara, If you disagree with the comment policy…”perhaps you should make your own blog and allow it to happen there and see how constructive it is to the purpose for which you began the blog in the first place.”

    Like

  142. novalox
    February 18, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    @hudson

    Simple, the person that you are supporting has stated several times that he wanted this site shut down, and that he was going to get hackers to try to close this site.

    Like

  143. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    novalox, I am not supporting anyone and also didn’t see the comment you are describing.

    Like

  144. February 18, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    @Hudson – is there anything in particular that is relevant to this actual blog post that you care to add? Something about Pertussis perhaps?

    Like

  145. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 4:06 pm

    Lawrence, I think it has all been covered.

    Like

  146. February 18, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    @Hudson – good to hear & that you agree that DTaP is important to protect newborns & the most vulnerable.

    Like

  147. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Looks like the moderator only cares about enforcing the “Comment Policy” for those that have opposing views.

    Like

  148. February 18, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    @Hudson – you’ve never spent much time over at Age of Autism, have you?

    Like

  149. Hudson
    February 18, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    I can say I have never been on that site – why?

    It’s to bad you can treat people like that….the comment policy is very straight up about these things. Just goes to show this site doesn’t have any integrity.

    Like

  150. Gray Falcon
    February 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    Hudson, we are dealing with people, who, by their direct words and actions, threaten to harm human lives. Be glad we have the restraint to simply engage in mild insults, rather than direct assault.

    Like

  151. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    Comments containing the following elements will be deemed inappropriate and will be removed from the blog:
    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Like

  152. February 19, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @Hudson – rather than post here, why don’t you contact the owner of this blog, because you’re completely off-topic.

    Like

  153. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Can’t take the heat Lawrence? Why are you above the rules and allowed to attack people?
    As long as people keep talking to me, I will keep replying back.

    Like

  154. February 19, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    @Hudson – what are your thoughts on the current topic of the Pertussis Vaccine (as part of the DTaP shot)? While the current vaccine isn’t ideal, it is certainly better than no protection at all, don’t you think?

    There is, of course, the issue of Diphtheria & Tetanus, both of which are pretty bad illnesses & we wouldn’t want people to forgo the protection of the vaccine just because of some misguided individuals who don’t understand the relative risks vs. benefits and cling to bad science, would we?

    I’d be very interested to hear your stance on the subject.

    Like

  155. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    I’ll play your game Lawrence and avoid talking about why your comments haven’t been removed and why you are allowed to go against the “comments policy” and attack people….I don’t believe this vaccine is worth the risk of the potential “side effects” and health risks. If the vaccine offered better protection, myabe it would be worth the risk, but as it is, def no.

    Like

  156. Mara
    February 19, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    GF,
    We were talking about people who harmed human lives through their words or actions. Some of us have pointed out that it can harm babies to let people who may be incubating pertussis kiss them; others here think it’s more important to push the vaccine and let people believe that there’s no way they could transmit pertussis to newborns, even though that is, in a huge percentage of cases, not true. We’re mainly talking about newborns here because, although pertussis is not a walk in the park for anyone, it’s only dangerous to newborns because their respiratory passages haven’t developed enough for them to be able to cough up the mucus efficiently.

    We recently bought two parakeets to replace one that died, because I was worried about a preexisting parakeet, Rafik, being lonely without Cobber. I quarantined Kiwi and Sprite for a month before putting them together. My book The Simple Guide to Bird Care & Training, pp. 80-1 (and they all said the same thing), “By quarantine, I mean that the newest bird in your home will have to be housed in a separate part of your house, far away from your other birds. You’ll need to feed and play with your newest pet bird after you feed and play with your other birds, and make sure that you change clothes and wash your hands thoroughly after handling your new bird or its utensils and before handling other birds in your home. All these quarantine measures are designed to prevent any hidden diseases from spreading from your new bird to your other feathered friends, so be sure to follow them carefully.”

    It should be pointed out that it is considered sufficient to isolate dangerous germs by keeping them in a separate room of the house. There is no reason to believe human pertussis germs are evenly or even unevenly distributed in all the air in the house just because they are present in another room, any more than there’s reason to believe that bird germs are, and so all quarantine measures would be useless. Again, a plan with a few possible holes in it is better than no plan. If all germs are always evenly distributed everywhere because they are present in one place, then making unvaccinated children stay home when someone in the school gets pertussis or chickenpox is a useless measure, because the sick child’s germs, whether he were vaccinated or unvaccinated, are already everywhere, and cannot be contained by any means.

    I haven’t been here for a couple of days, Joe told me that Law had said something so mean about me that it was taken down. I asked him to tell me what it was. Law, you shouldn’t lose your cool, we’re just presenting our different points of view on these important subjects, it’s nothing personal on my part, anyway, you shouldn’t feel insulted. It would make a better impression to act concerned but dispassionate. It’s a question of how best to protect children, not anyone’s pride.

    Like

  157. February 19, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    @Hudson – is 7 out of 10 better than 0 out of 10? Don’t fall into the typical “Nirvana” or “Perfect World” Fallacies….you should read:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/dtap/dtapindex.html

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#dtap

    Versus:

    Prognosis

    Common complications of the disease include pneumonia, encephalopathy, earache, or seizures.

    Most healthy older children and adults will have a full recovery from pertussis, however those with comorbid conditions can have a higher risk of morbidity and mortality.

    Infection in newborns is particularly severe. Pertussis is fatal in an estimated 1.6% of hospitalized infants who are under one year of age.[18] Infants under one are also more likely to develop complications (e.g., pneumonia (20%), encephalopathy, seizures (1%), failure to thrive, and death (0.2%). Pertussis can cause severe paroxysm-induced cerebral hypoxia and apnea. Reported fatalities from pertussis in infants have increased substantially over the past 20 years.[19]

    I think the information more than speaks for itself – the vaccine(s) are far safer, even in adults, that catching Pertussis and having to deal with the potential, very serious, and much more common side-effects.

    What is your definition of “safe” – how safe would a vaccine have to be for you to find it acceptable? That way, we are all on the same page….

    Like

  158. Mara
    February 19, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    Everyone discussing this topic should take a look at the cases presented here to get more of a feel for why many wish to refuse the DTaP, as well as other vaccines:
    http://bit.ly/iOzdFS

    If, after reading all the cases (and, of course, the ones here are just a small portion of the total), you still wish to get the vax for yourself or your children, be my guest, but let the rest of us decide for ourselves.

    Like

  159. Matt
    February 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    All those participating in the discussion here should take a look at the true cases presented here:

    http://bit.ly/iOzdFS

    Many of these children reacted badly to the pertussis vaccine. If, after reading all of them, you still wish to get the vax for yourself or your children, be my guest, but I don’t think you should try to make the rest of us take the vaccine if we decide it’s more dangerous than t he disease.

    Like

  160. February 19, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    More sockpuppets?

    Like

  161. February 19, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    Resorting to sock puppets again? That’s very bad form & very inconsiderate to make yourself appear to be something you are not.

    Once again, you articulate an idea that runs afoul of the “Nirvana & Perfect World” fallacies – that an individual would be incapable to error (or a process be without weakness or a plan concocted that could be guaranteed to operate with 100% efficiency).

    Unfortunately, we do not live in that kind of world – so your recommendations are in fact baseless and without merit, for the very reason that it would be impossible to expect that “your” standards could be maintained by everyone, at all times.

    Therefore, it is much better to take all possible, reasonable precautions, including protecting your child (and yourself and others) by making use of the very safe vaccines that are currently available to the general public.

    Of course, we cannot expect that even the vaccines will be 100% effective – which is why limited contact in situations where pertussis could be an issue, should also be employed, but at the end of the day, vaccines are and will continue to be the best means that we have for reducing the “incidence” of VPDs – as evidenced by the drastic reduction in childhood diseases over the last 60 years (since the advent of mass vaccinations).

    All of the evidence and scientific research shows that serious side-effects to vaccines happen with such rarity as to be almost indistinguishable from background events (meaning occurring in less than 1 in 1 million cases) – in such small numbers that it can be difficult to statistically link the vaccine to a particular episode.

    This is confirmed in both clinical testing before the widespread use of a vaccine and also tracked as part of the post-release safety surveillance program monitored by the CDC (and quality control and regulatory testing by the FDA). This does not include the various agencies and organizations internationally which also monitor the distribution and safety profile of vaccines across the Globe, all of which have shown that, except in very rare cases, vaccines are hugely effective, safe and have saved the lives of countless children and adults.

    We’ve also seen the eradication of Smallpox, which during its history with us, killed more people than all of our wars combined – and now we are on the threshold of eliminating polio as well – and we could do the same for Measles and Mumps, as they have no other host outside of humans.

    Care to articulate how you would control the spread of diseases like Measles (extremely virulent) and Mumps, without vaccines?

    Like

  162. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    Lawrence, please don’t pull that “what’s your def of safe?” crap. I don’t need to give you a definition, I already told you….”I don’t believe this vaccine is worth the risk of the potential “side effects” and health risks. If the vaccine offered better protection, myabe it would be worth the risk, but as it is, def no.

    You don’t need to know anything else.

    Like

  163. Cynthia A.
    February 19, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    You know I would not bother. Measles is not the textbook example of a virulent disease. Ebola would be, or even hantavirus, but not measles, which is a relatively mild disease in the vast majority of those who get it. Having measles strengthens and educates the immune system, and having the natural diseases strengthens the Th-1 response, making autoimmune disease less likely. It also allows a woman to give her baby protection in his first year, when measles is most likely to be dangerous to him. Mumps is inconsequential in the vast majority of cases. If it occurs in males over adolescence, it can occasionally cause sterility, but usually on one side. Sometimes the natural disease can cause diabetes, but the mumps vaccine can cause diabetes as well.

    The pertussis vaccine continues to cause anaphylactic reactions, encephalopathy, neuropathy, brachial neurities, Guillain-Barré syndrome, demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system, lymphadenopathy, bulging fontanelle, cranial mononeuropathy, seizures, grand mal convulsions, high-pitched cry, persistent cry, screaming, hypotonic/hyporesponsive episodes, cellulitis, cyanosis, thrombocytopenia, anorexia, diarrhea, vomiting, ear pain, autism, apnea, difficulty breathing, and SIDS.

    In 1993, in an outbreak in Ohio, 82% of younger children who had the disease had received multiple doses of the vaccine. Same year in Alberta, 62% of sick people had been vaccinated appropriately. In 1996, in Vermont, 97% of all children 19-35 months old had been properly vaccinated, but 72% of all children between 7 months old and four years old had gotten three to five doses of the vaccine. 68% of all 7-18 year olds who got the disease had gotten four or five doses of the shot. In 2003, there was an outbreak in Cyprus although there was a background vaccination rate of 98%. 79% of all those who got sick had gotten 3 to 5 doses of the vaccine, only 13% were completely unvaxed. In Israel, cases of pertussis rose 16-fold between 1998 and 2004, although vaccination rates had remained the same. The acellular vaccine was introduced there in 2002. From 2003 through 2005, there was a higher rate of people getting the recommended vaccines, but pertussis incidence continued to climb. In 2009, there was a pertussis outbreak in New Jersey, in which all (100%) of the children who had pertussis had been fully vaccinated against it.

    Between the relative mildness of the disease, the fairly common severe adverse events caused by it, and its frequent inefficacy, I think everyone should be left to make his own decision on whether or not to get this vaccine for him or herself and their children. I’m sure you realize that I think it’s better to keep your newborn away from people who might transmit it, and then bravely go ahead and get the disease if you’re no longer a baby, for the sake of the long-lasting immunity from having had the natural disease.

    Like

  164. novalox
    February 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    @hudson

    You are entitled to your own beleifs, but not to your own facts, and the scientific facts do not back up your opinions.

    If you can present some actual scientific citations for your opinions, then do so.

    Like

  165. February 19, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    @sockpuppets – as has been said on numerous occasions, citations please?

    BTW – here is good information that shows you have no idea what you are talking about:

    Complications

    Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from the relatively mild and less serious ones like diarrhea to more serious ones such as pneumonia, otitis media, acute encephalitis (rarely SSPE — subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), and corneal ulceration (leading to corneal scarring). Complications are usually more severe in adults who catch the virus.

    Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was three measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.[5] In underdeveloped nations with high rates of malnutrition and poor healthcare, fatality rates have been as high as 28%.[5] In immunocompromised patients (e.g. people with AIDS) the fatality rate is approximately 30%.[6]

    Not to mention:

    In 2000 the WHO estimated that there were ~45 million cases of measles worldwide with 800,000 deaths from it. Mortality in developed countries is ~1/1000. In sub-Saharan Africa, mortality is 10%. In cases with complications, the rate may rise to 20–30%. In 2010, approximately 380 deaths occurred every day from measles.[32]

    And this one:

    Measles is spread through respiration (contact with fluids from an infected person’s nose and mouth, either directly or through aerosol transmission), and is highly contagious—90% of people without immunity sharing living space with an infected person will catch it

    Measles is one of the most contagious diseases on the planet – only with the vaccine have we been able to get it reasonably under control (and in the US, we no longer have native circulating measles).

    ——————————————–

    You have never shown that side-effects from vaccines occur with a frequency even approaching the very serious side-effects that do occur with naturally occurring vaccine-preventable diseases, ever – no evidence, no citations, no research, no nothing except for your own wild assertions.

    On the other hand, research and clinical studies (not to mention population studies, etc) have shown, over and over and over, that vaccines are at least a magnitude (or several) safer than the diseases they prevent – there is a reason why our grandparents were ecstatic about vaccines – because it meant that their children & their children’s children would not have to worry about the same dreaded diseases that they did – members of my extended family died and were disabled by vaccine-preventable diseases – these are facts, facts that many others were as well – unlike the stories you spin, with no evidence, etc.

    Like

  166. February 19, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    @Hudson – you were the one that wanted a reasonable conversation. How can we do that if we don’t understand the definitions and research that supports your opinion?

    You claim the vaccine isn’t safe enough? Well, why not? What level of safe would you find acceptable?

    If you can’t provide a simple definition that allows for scrutiny, then no honest discussion can be had.

    As Novalox aptly pointed out, you are always entitled to your own opinions, but you aren’t entitled to your own set of facts – so, citations please.

    Oh, and I’ll definitely need that definition of “safe” please as well.

    Like

  167. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    novalox….my opinion is based on experience. I know too many people that have been injured by vaccines, so to me they are not worth the risk. So my facts to back up my opinion and yes I do have a right to my facts and opinion, period. You are welcome to make your own decisions as well.

    Like

  168. February 19, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    @Hudson – no one in my immediate family, nor my extended family, my friends, their families or even their extended families has ever suffered from (or even claimed) to have suffered from a vaccine injury. I can also say the same thing for my wife’s friends and family as well…..how is it that, if what you said (and what others have said about the frequency of vaccine injuries) that out of hundreds of people that I know and have known, that I have no heard one single instance of this occurring?

    Like

  169. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    I guess you are just plain lucky Lawrence!

    If you think I am basing my decisons about vaccines on anything else, you would be mistaken, and what would be the point? I am not a “paid” anti vaccine advocate. I choose not to get them for me or my family because of all of the people I persoanlly know that have been injured from them…period.

    Like

  170. novalox
    February 19, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    @hudson

    Experience doesn’t count in terms of actual facts.

    I can say that I have had family who have been prevented from catching diseases, such as meningitis, measles, and polio, and have worked with individuals who have been affected by those disease, and know first hand how bad the diseases have affected them.

    So, I can say that my experiences trump yours.

    So, please, cite something that backs up your viewpoints.

    Like

  171. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    novalox…My experiences are all actual facts, and it wouldn’t make much sense to lie to myself now would it.

    If you want to say your experience trumps mine, go ahead, it doesn’t bother me or change my opinion one bit. You should make decisions based on your own experiences, it’s called learning.

    Like

  172. Gray Falcon
    February 19, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    Hudson- How do you know if bleach is toxic if you haven’t tried it yourself? Personal experience is not the only thing one can learn from.

    Like

  173. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    In this case, it is the most important thing.

    Like

  174. Gray Falcon
    February 19, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    “Because I said so, that’s why” is not considered valid logic around here, Hudson. You are but one among billions, your own experiences alone are not enough to make reality.

    Like

  175. Hudson
    February 19, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    Gray…I never said that….but if it pertains to my experiences and my decisions, then it is my right. My experiences are my reality and that is what I base my decisions on.
    You are free to do what you, I never said you couldn’t….vaccinate away! Go for it. So please don’t tell me what to do with my life or tell me my experiences are irrelevant to me.

    Like

  176. Gray Falcon
    February 19, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    Hudson- It isn’t your right. You have no right to endanger others through your inaction. And are you say that everybody else’s experiences have no relevance?

    Like

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: