Home > In the News, Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases, Testimonials > Not So Marvelous Measles and Other Tragic Tales

Not So Marvelous Measles and Other Tragic Tales

childreadingMy eleven year old daughter has a wonderfully imaginative sense of humor and loves telling fancy tales. This may explain why one of her favorite authors is Roald Dahl.  Just the other day she was introducing her younger sister to one of his books and we were taking turns reading to one another. Perhaps this is why I was so touched and angered by two different stories I heard yesterday.

The first story was by Roald Dahl.  Unfortunately, this story wasn’t humorous or even something he created out of his wild imagination. Sadly, it was the story of how his daughter suffered and died as a result of measles.  I had heard the story before but yesterday, after reading the story in this link from the Encephalitis Society, I stopped to appreciate my precious children, and the time we get to cuddle up and read together.  The story appeared as follows:

MEASLES: A dangerous illness by ROALD DAHL (1986)

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her. On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered.

Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it. It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk.

In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out. Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year.

Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another.

At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections.

About 20 will die.

LET THAT SINK IN.

Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.

So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?

They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.

So what on earth are you worrying about?

It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised. The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.

Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was ‘James and the Giant Peach’. That was when she was still alive. The second was ‘The BFG’, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children.

While one can conclude that losing his daughter to measles is what prompted Roald Dahl to speak out in support of vaccination, I was baffled to discover yet another story being told about measles –  only this one came from a parent who believes that “measles is marvelous”.  Sad, but true, Stephanie Messenger self-published a book entitled ‘Melanie’s Marvelous Measles’, in an apparent attempt to mock the efforts of people like Roald Dahl (and his book entitled ‘George’s Marvelous Medicine’).  While in Roald Dahl’s books the reader is often entertained by alliteration and similes, I’m concerned that Messenger’s book, motivated by the death of her son, is a hazardous suggestion to parents that may ultimately result in further and unnecessary suffering.

The idea of promoting childhood illness seems to epitomize the growing attitudes of many dangerously mislead parents.  It’s not enough for them to enjoy their freedoms by choosing not to vaccinate their children.  No.  For some reason they feel they must validate their own misguided opinions.  They do they best to spreading untruths and make unsubstantiated claims in hopes that their efforts will encourage others to question immunizations and instead encourage diseases known to cause death.

It’s clear that immunizations try to create a community immunity that not only protects the individual, but is also intended to help protect those too young or medically unable to be immunized.  I’ve reconciled with the fact that there will always be some people who choose not to vaccinate.  While there may not be much we can do to change their minds, it saddens me that parents like Messenger continue to declare that getting measles is good and getting vaccinated is bad.  It’s scary to think that parents will read this book and share it with their children, perpetuating these ideas for future generations to come.

As a regular contributor to this blog I know that many people wake up each day with a goal to convince others that vaccines are unsafe and unnecessary.  Yet, I still can’t help but wonder how any parent could honestly believe that having your child suffer with a disease that is known to be deadly could ever be a good thing.  Even if you’re not a big fan of immunizations.

To me, it’s like rolling the dice.  Playing Russian roulette.  Betting on a perfect immune system and not realizing that there are no second chances.  

I’m just not willing to gamble with my child’s health and I only wish all parents would see it that way – not to validate my own scientific beliefs, but to prevent children from suffering and to spare parents like Roald Dahl from having to live with the pain of losing a child.

Tonight I intend to cuddle up and read another Roald Dahl book with my children.  You can bet that I will make sure they read the dedication page and I will share Olivia’s story. They are going to need to be prepared to deal with Messenger’s children someday.   

  1. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    “To me, it’s like rolling the dice. Playing Russian roulette. Betting on a perfect immune system and not realizing that there are no second chances.”

    I rolled the dice on vaccinations and regret it to this day.

    Like

  2. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    The fact that this book’s title is a pretty obvious play on Dahl’s book George’s marvelous medicine makes it all the more awful.

    Like

  3. January 10, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    @MM – citations please?

    Like

  4. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    I really feel good I don’t have to play the vaccinators’ favorite past time. What dunce would “recommend” such a lethal game?

    Like

  5. January 10, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    It isn’t just about mortality – because many more individuals will suffer complications, ranging from mild to very severe (including blindness, deafness, sterility, encephalitis, secondary infections, etc) at rates many magnitudes higher than any reactions that might occur with vaccines.

    The anti-vaccine crowd completely ignores the fact that modern medicine was unable to do anything about the incidence of diseases (without strict quarantines) until the advent of vaccines. Sure, sanitation helped a bit with water-borne diseases, but since most vaccine-preventable diseases are airborne, there was really nothing to be done (which is why these diseases were ubiquitous – people didn’t think they weren’t bad, they knew they probably didn’t have any other options but to watch their children suffer through them).

    Like

  6. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    Yes I’d be interested too @MM and am sorry you or your child has had difficulties- did you report to VAERS? Were you compenstated through the vaccine injury compensation program? Despite a very low bar for proof of vaccine injury only 1/3 (if memory serves) are rewarded compensation but if you or your child was vaccine injured I would think one of the two actions at least had been taken by you. Otherwise as is typical of these statements we just get to believe you and take your word for it and let anecdote overrule all other evidence. @Lawrence – so true and now we do have better medical treatment for certain disease but as this blog is about prevention let us not forget that old saying about an ounce of prevention….and despite better medical treatments suffering is still suffering. Needless preventable suffering all the worse.

    Like

  7. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    @L – “at rates many magnitudes higher than any reactions that might occur with vaccines.”

    Prove it!

    Like

  8. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    Perhaps we are reading Mr. M wrong. He could be saying that he made the mistake by not getting a child the MMR, and that they suffered greatly. Much like this story:
    Mum urges parents to consider MMR jab against measles
    .

    Or this mother’s story about her daughter losing much of her hearing: Rachel’s Story.

    Like

  9. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    Lawrence,

    The anti-vaccine crowd completely ignores the fact that modern medicine was unable to do anything about the incidence of diseases (without strict quarantines) until the advent of vaccines.

    Check the first successful rinderpest eradication (before the advent of the vaccine). I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

    Sure, sanitation helped a bit with water-borne diseases, but since most vaccine-preventable diseases are airborne, there was really nothing to be done (which is why these diseases were ubiquitous – people didn’t think they weren’t bad, they knew they probably didn’t have any other options but to watch their children suffer through them).

    Do you know how housing programs will solve overcrowding? Now you get the point.

    Like

  10. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    Here you go Mr. McNamara: The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review

    Measles is an important cause of serious complications and death. Pneumonia is the most frequent severe complication, and croup, diarrhea, and malnutrition precipitated by measles contribute to mortality. Encephalitis occurs in ∼1 of every 1000 children with measles.

    Like

  11. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    […] this blog is about prevention let us not forget that old saying about an ounce of prevention[…]

    I beg to disagree. Like MDC, SBM, and RI, this blog is a notorious infection promoter. SHOT OF INFECTION is quite fitting. There will be an epidemic of shingles if they don’t stop recruiting new candidates.

    Like

  12. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Encephalitis occurs in 1 of every 1000 children with measles.

    You have failed to convince me that the odds of vaccination injury are more than 1 in a 1000.

    Like

  13. January 10, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    @Chris – I see that insane troll brings up Rinderpest again & advocates the same policies that made that first eradication possible (the killing of all infected or suspected infected cattle, plus all cattle within a certain radius of the initial outbreak).

    Thanks for once again showing how deluded you really are insane troll, advocating the mass killing of people to prevent disease.

    Like

  14. Lara Lohne
    January 10, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    I think the fact that this book is ‘self published’ speaks volumes to its credibility. Why would a person self publish a book? Because it isn’t marketable, for one, people wouldn’t buy it, and regardless of the message behind the story, the writing itself, from reviews that I’ve read, is poor at best and down right awful and no child would be engaged by reading this book, or having it read to them. Self publication can be great, for honest writers who are trying to ‘break in’ to the author’s circle. But for those who are only promoting an agenda, it is not such a good thing, and I feel borders on abuse of the process and what it was initially intended for. Unfortunately, since it’s release, it’s gotten a lot of publicity, from blogs just like this one, and I can’t help but believe that is going to up sales of the book, just because people are curious about the ‘hype’ surrounding it. How many copies of this book will sell just because of blog posts about it, even if they are negative? I’ve not actually seen any (possibly they are there at AoA, but I don’t go there anymore so…) that approve and/or recommend this book be read to children or given to them to read. I sincerely hope this doesn’t show up in any public school libraries. That would be too ironic for me.

    Like

  15. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    I’ve got zero risk if only they will remain uninfected and unvaccinated.

    Maybe because I don’t wish encephalitis on them, do you?

    Like

  16. January 10, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    @MM – although I usually ignore obvious sock puppets…..here is the information requested:

    A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of MMRV vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.

    Getting MMRV vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps, rubella, or chickenpox.

    Most children who get MMRV vaccine do not have any problems with it.

    Mild Problems

    Fever (about 1 child out of 5).
    Mild rash (about 1 child out of 20).
    Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (rare).

    If these problems happen, it is usually within 5-12 days after the first dose. They happen less often after the second dose.

    Moderate Problems

    Seizure caused by fever (about 1 child in 1,250 who get MMRV), usually 5-12 days after the first dose. They happen less often when MMR and varicella vaccines are given at the same visit as separate shots (about 1 child in 2,500 who get these two vaccines), and rarely after a 2nd dose of MMRV.
    Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 child out of 40,000).

    Severe Problems (Very Rare)
    Several severe problems have been reported following MMR vaccine, and might also happen after MMRV. These include severe allergic reactions (fewer than 4 per million), and problems such as:

    Deafness.
    Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.
    Permanent brain damage.

    Because these problems occur so rarely, we can’t be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmrv
    ——————————————————————————————————————

    I believe that fewer than 1 in 4 million is better odds than 1 in 1000 – especially since there is no concrete evidence that the 1 in 4 million is actually related to the vaccine (no proof).

    It isn’t like this information is private – it is publicly available and widely distributed – so there is no excuse for you not to know (and be able to make a real judgement based on real facts – not conjecture or phony anti-vaccine science.

    Like

  17. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    @hippocrates – evidence? Luckily for those of us not lucky enough to have had access to the chicken pox vaccine there is a vaccine for shingles. My own father suffered horribly from shingles so I will for sure get that vax when it is time. Given that I was exposed to the wild type virus instead of the vaccine I will protect myself with the vaccine when the time is right. Increased measles in adulthood was a concern as well regarding the measles vaccine but that has not turned out to be true. Dr. Sears does a pretty good job of explaining this: http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/childhood-illnesses/chicken-pox-vaccine And as for publicizing this book I do see your point @Lara but I have been heartened to hear more vocal opposition to it not too long ago the anti vax crowd were drowning out the voice of the majority that do vaccinate. They are becoming less and less silent and that overall is a very good thing imo.

    Like

  18. Lara Lohne
    January 10, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    @Mr. McNamara,

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm070425.htm

    “In the section Post-Marketing Reports, encephalitis (infection of the brain) was added to reflect the receipt of reports following ProQuad vaccination. Previously, this adverse reaction was listed under adverse events seen after MMR or varicella vaccination. Encephalitis has been reported approximately once for every 3 million doses of MMR vaccine. Post-marketing surveillance of more than 400 million doses distributed worldwide (1978 to 2003) indicates that encephalitis is rarely reported after MMR vaccination. In no case has it been shown conclusively that encephalitis was caused by a vaccine virus infection of the central nervous system. There was no proven causal relationship between ProQuad and any of the reported cases that prompted the change in the label.”

    Granted this is the MMRV vaccine, which is now being used for children 12 months and older as of 2008. But 1 in 3 million is significantly less (orders of magnitude in fact) then 1 in 1000.

    Of course they are still monitoring and watching and reviewing any and all reported adverse events, so make sure their numbers are accurate. Please try to remember, a report is only that, if an investigation happens and leads to something other then the vaccine, it is not considered a vaccine reaction and therefore will not be included in the official numbers reported.

    Like

  19. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    I thought Lawrence had identified the people with the herd….oh wait…

    Like

  20. January 10, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    @insane troll – I’m not the one advocating / endorsing mass killing of infected & suspected infected individuals (plus all others in an approximate radius, just in case) to eradicate diseases…..you are.

    @julie – ignore insane troll, she doesn’t live on the same planet as the rest of us.

    Like

  21. Lara Lohne
    January 10, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    That is a very good point, Julie. One other thing that I noticed, when reading a review of the actual story, is they make the vaccinators out to be arrogant, know it all bullies who are smug and self righteous and people who are not worthy of our compassion, and nonvaccinators as compassionate, humble and honestly forthright. In reality, I have found (having been on both sides of the fence) it’s the other way around. Talk about twisting reality. I am super glad that vaccine advocates are becoming more vocal, and that our numbers are increasing, and while we still are using science as the basis for our stance, there is also passion and emotion behind our beliefs, just as there is for the anti-vaccine people, which I believe is why so many people find their side of the story so compelling. Why news media feel the need to include them in a story about VPD and vaccination, for the drama part of it, which is the whole point behind entertainment, it should be entertaining, and anymore, most ‘news’ is more that then fact. Since there are so many more vaccine advocates now that have emotional stories and passionate feelings as well as science behind them, the media doesn’t so much need to include the anti-vaccine crowd now. Disease, suffering, vaccinations to prevent it, are all the drama that is needed anymore. And along with all that drama, they also do include some of the science of it, so the world is waking up to reality now, and the voice of the anti-vaccine movement is not so loud as it used to be. I think the fact that Wakefield was found to be a fraud was just the first stepping stone down that path.

    Like

  22. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    @lawrence – tempting to ignore and just shake my head and in no way am I deluded that I will convince this person but my concern is for the fence sitters or others simply confused and hesitant and are having further seeds of doubt planted by grossly incorrect information. Thank you for your work!

    Like

  23. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    @lara – couldn’t have said it better myself!

    Like

  24. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    @hippocrates – evidence? Luckily for those of us not lucky enough to have had access to the chicken pox vaccine there is a vaccine for shingles.

    A shingles vaccine is a chicken pox vaccine and vice versa. The only way to prevent shingles is NOT to have primary VZV infection, since shingles is caused by the reactivation of the latent VZV (from primary VZV infection). The only candidates for shingles therefore are those who have previously had the natural varicella infection and the varicella vaccine. If you’d give them the shingles vaccine, you’re just exposing them again to VZV hence it will promote varicella reinfection. Having said that, natural exposure to chicken pox and shingles vaccines are useless, harmful and unnecessary. They don’t prevent shingles.

    Like

  25. January 10, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    @insane troll – thank you once again for amply demonstrating your belief in both the Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies…you should give a class on the subject, since you seem to be the expert in applying both at regular intervals.

    Definitely doesn’t live on this planet or the same reality as the rest of us.

    Like

  26. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Suddenly analogies don’t work for them. By now, you should know how mercurial vaccinators are.

    Like

  27. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    @hippocrates – again evidence. To be honest I had a hard time understanding your statement but I think I might understand what you are trying to say and boy would I have loved to have avoided chicken pox entirely. Dr. Lara Zibners does an excellent job of answering that question I doubt this is something you will read but if other are lurking and reading comments this post does a great job. https://shotofprevention.com/2013/01/08/connecting-the-dots-chicken-pox-varicella-vaccine-and-shingles/ From the post “So there you have it. There is an argument that ongoing lifetime exposure to children with “natural” chicken pox will prevent shingles. And that we’ve tinkered with this system by immunizing against varicella in the first place. Which is technically true. Repeated exposure will keep the old immune system more awake and charged up, better prepared to beat down that pesky varicella. But the vaccine does the same thing. And vaccinating against both means a lower risk of severe complications from chicken pox and a much lower risk of severe complications from zoster. Which is worth celebrating, eh?”

    Like

  28. January 10, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    @Julie – here is insane troll’s beliefs, in a nutshell:

    1) A person is capable of avoiding all diseases through proper measures (though it will never define what those measures are).

    2) A person should be able to immediately identify infected individuals & pathogens, at all times, in all situations.

    3) Vaccines are considered an “infection” and therefore “bad” since all infections are “bad” regardless of whether or not symptoms actually occur.

    That pretty much sums it up.

    Like

  29. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    @lawrence – well it does sound like that would be pretty great. If only it were true. And possible for that matter. Maybe one day…for now I’ll be vaccinating.

    Like

  30. January 10, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    @Julie – hence why insane troll falls squarely into the Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies…..

    Like

  31. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    Julie,

    Obviously, the doctor is trying to speak in layman’s because it’s easier although amiss. What if she tells you that shingles is like an investment- you need resources right? If you’ll ask her, she will give you two funds, namely:

    1. Natural varicella infection
    2. Varicella vaccine

    Are you still going to invest in shingles? Tell me about it.

    I don’t think you’ll find one person in this blog who’s going to disagree with that.

    Like

  32. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    @hippocrates – sorry I really don’t know or understand what you are trying to say with your comment otherwise I would be happy to respond. I however understand exactly what Dr. Lara is saying and this is why I will be vaccinating (already have for chicken pox) and I’ll be getting the shingles vax when it is time.

    Like

  33. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    hence why insane troll falls squarely into the Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies…..

    Did it ever occur to your mind that you need to have source, unless of course those were actually your own beliefs?

    Thank you.

    Like

  34. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    Julie,

    Why don’t you try asking anyone from the provax if this “investment” is true?

    Ask Chris, Lawrence, novalox, Gray Falcon, the blog owner, Dr Zibner, etc etc.

    Like

  35. January 10, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    @insane troll – this ought to be good. You’ve made it abundantly clear through the couple of years that I’ve seen you post, what you believe. If I am mistaken in your beliefs, I look forward to you clearly articulating them to us, to correct our impression.

    Like

  36. Julie
    January 10, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    I am not sure they would know what you are talking about either but they are more than welcome to chime in they’d have to understand the question or what you mean by investment in the first place. I haven’t gotten a clarification from you but anyone reading these comments and in comparing your statements with those of others hopefully will walk away safe in the knowledge that vaccinating for chicken pox in the young and vaccinating for shingles in the old is a good and safe choice.

    Like

  37. JJ Stokes
    January 10, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    Hippocrates, are you saying that you can’t get shingles unless one of two things happens?
    1. Natural varicella infection
    2. Varicella vaccine

    So if you’ve neber had the wild ck pox you shouldn’t get the vaccine because it promotes shingles?

    What if you have had ck pox….should you get the vacine to help against shingles?

    Like

  38. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    They would know it.

    And I am waiting.

    Like

  39. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Hippocrates, are you saying that you can’t get shingles unless one of two things happens?
    1. Natural varicella infection
    2. Varicella vaccine

    Rule #1 No chicken pox ( either from natural infection or vaccine) means no shingles. Only one MUST occur to develop shingles.

    So if you’ve neber had the wild ck pox you shouldn’t get the vaccine because it promotes shingles?

    Read Rule #1.

    Like

  40. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    What if you have had ck pox….should you get the vacine to help against shingles?

    You have already been infected, FWIW. The shingles vaccine is a glorified chicken pox vaccine. The only thing it will promote is another bout of varicella reinfection- an acute infection that will “wake your immune system up. Not surprising. So now you have two infections. An acute VZV infection and the other one in latency. Need some more?

    Like

  41. January 10, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    @insane troll – please keep ranting – makes it so much easier to show people how deluded you are…oh, and going to address my question about your beliefs? Please, correct me if I’ve gotten it wrong – articulate exactly what you believe.

    Like

  42. JJ Stokes
    January 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Seems like it makes sense, thank you Hippocrates.

    Like

  43. Monica
    January 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Just don’t forget the hundreds of thousands of parents who regret having let their children get the MMR when they regressed into autism and bowel disease. The MMR also not infrequently causes encephalitis (just like the natural disease measles etc.), subsclerosing panencephalitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, convulsions, seizures, ataxia, ocular palsies, anaphylaxis, angioneurotic edma, bronchial spasms, panniuclitis, vasculitis, thrombocytopenia, lymphadenopathy, leudocytosis, pneumonitis, Steven-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, urticaria, deafness, otitis media, retinitis, optic neuritis, rash, fever, dizziness, headache, death (!), diabetes mellitus, orchitis, pancreatitis, parotitis, mumps meningitis, arthitis, arthralgia, myalgia, leukocytosis, polyneuritis, and death (!) (just so you don’t forget).

    The CDC and the FDA published a study on the chickenpox vaccine in 2000, in the Journal of the AMA. It found that children under 4 had a rate of serious reactions (including death) of 6.3%, children under 2 a rate of serious reaction of 9.2%, and babies under one mistakenly given the vaccine a rate of serious reactin of 14% These serious reactions included death, life-threatening events, hospitalizations, significant disabilities, , and many cases of neurological disorders, immune system damage, blood disorders, brain inflammation, seizures, and death (!)

    Neither chickenpox nor measles is usually a serious disease in the First World, although of course there are exceptions, and of course it is possible to get and die from measles pneumonia or encephalitis. There is no perfect answer. You just have to decide if you think it is worth it to play vaccine roulette with your own or your child’s life.

    Like

  44. novalox
    January 10, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    @monica

    [citation needed]

    Like

  45. January 10, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    @monica – in case you missed it, I’ll repost:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmrv

    Care to point out where your information came from?

    You should also be able to point to that CDC / FDA study in PubMed, right?

    Like

  46. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 6:38 pm

    Mr. McNamara:

    You have failed to convince me that the odds of vaccination injury are more than 1 in a 1000.

    Because “vaccine injury” is much less than one in a thousand, it is more like one in several million. It is actually up to you (and Monica) to give us the titles, journals, and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the MMR is more dangerous than measles. Because you are the ones claiming the MMR vaccine causes harm.

    In the mean time here are some studies:

    Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
    The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: The first case-control study in Asia.

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    BMC Public Health. 2011 May 19;11:340.
    Congenital rubella syndrome and autism spectrum disorder prevented by rubella vaccination–United States, 2001-2010.

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    Like

  47. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    Chris

    Your studies have failed to convince me otherwise.

    Like

  48. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    I believe vaccine injuries happen more often than 1 in 1000.

    Like

  49. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    Since Encephalitis occurs in 1 of every 1000 children who are vaccinated for Measles, it doesn’t make any sense to vaccinate with that kind of risk.

    Like

  50. Stu
    January 10, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Oh, so this is where Th1Th2 went to?

    Awesome. Did you tell everyone about your fool-proof way to avoid childhood disease? I seem to recall it involved staying on the sidewalk.

    Also, have you shared your magical definition of “infection” yet?

    Like

  51. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    Mr. McNamara:

    Since Encephalitis occurs in 1 of every 1000 children who are vaccinated for Measles, it doesn’t make any sense to vaccinate with that kind of risk.

    Where did you read that? Encephalitis happens to one out of every 1000 people who get the actual disease measles, not the vaccine.

    I am sorry, sir, we cannot go by your beliefs. You are making a specific claim, therefore you must support that claim with real verifiable scientific evidence. I have given you what that should look like, now go get it please.

    Like

  52. Lawrence
    January 10, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    @MM – glad to see you obviously didn’t read any of the scientific evidence we provided….

    Like

  53. Stu
    January 10, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    Lawrence, Chris: I don’t think you understand what you’re dealing with yet. Ask for the “Hippocrates”/”MM” (Th1Th2, google on scienceblogs.com) definitions of “infection” and “intravenous”.

    Like

  54. Narad
    January 10, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    Hippocrates :

    hence why insane troll falls squarely into the Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies…..

    Did it ever occur to your mind that you need to have source, unless of course those were actually your own beliefs?
    Thank you.

    “Need to have source” for what? Your plainly stated, and frankly asinine, assertion is that infectious disease will magically disappear if one just turns into a babbling nincompoop of your own personal flavor.

    Like

  55. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    Stu, I ignore Hippo/Thingy. Also, I think Mr. McNamara is actually a sock puppet for either “Joe” or “Steve Michaels.” His posts sound a bit more “Joe” like.

    Like

  56. Stu
    January 10, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    You’re right. Hippo is Thingy, all right… MM is someone else’s plaything.

    I apologize.

    Like

  57. Lawrence
    January 10, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    @chris – for obvious reasons I can definitely say MM is a sock puppet.

    Like

  58. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    Well, they don’t have much of a repertoire. Mostly: Vaccines bad! My story is better than science! I believe, therefore it’s the truth! Pharma Shill!

    Like

  59. Mr. McNamara
    January 10, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    Where did you read that? Encephalitis happens to one out of every 1000 people who get the actual disease measles, not the vaccine.

    Exactly….I would rather risk 1 of 1000 for getting the Measles and Encephalitis than 1 in 100’s for risk of a vaccine injury.

    And if you insist in knowing my first name, it is Larry.

    Like

  60. lilady
    January 10, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    Orac at Respectful Insolence blogged about this awful book, November 2011…

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/14/now-ive-seen-it-all-an-anti-vaccine-chil/

    The author is a pathological liar. Her child was born with a genetic degenerative disease, possibly adrenoleukodystrophy or Canavan disorder.

    @ Stu: “Hippo” is definitely a sockie of the Insane Thingy Troll…McNamara, I am uncertain about.

    Like

  61. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    Mr. McNamara:

    Encephalitis than 1 in 100′s for risk of a vaccine injury.

    Citation needed. Opinions are worthless, data is valuable.

    Like

  62. January 10, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    @lilady & chris – MM is being purposely obtuse and is picking a fight. Given the timing of “his” arrival here, I know for a fact that “he” is a sockpuppet & troll, brought over from posts at the Sacramento Bee.

    Like

  63. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Stu,

    Awesome. Did you tell everyone about your fool-proof way to avoid childhood disease? I seem to recall it involved staying on the sidewalk.

    What seems to be the problem about staying on the sidewalk, Stu?

    Anyway, have you shared your magical definition of “infection” yet?

    It’s not magical at all.

    Infection

    Definition

    Agent is present in host tissues without signs, symptoms or laboratory evidence of tissue damage.

    Modern Epidemiology
    By Kenneth J. Rothman, Sander Greenland, Timothy L. Lash page 551

    Like

  64. Binky Boy
    January 10, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    I believe Joe, CIA, Michael, Thingy and Larry are all the same sock puppet!

    Like

  65. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Lawrence:

    MM is being purposely obtuse and is picking a fight.

    That is why I believe it is a another variation of “Joe.” I have not seen the SacBee article.

    Like

  66. January 10, 2013 at 11:22 pm

    I am grateful for vaccines every day. When I was 3 I caught measles despite having had the MMR vaccine (this was in ’86/’87), and some anti-vaxers have tried to tell me that is proof that the vaccine doesn’t work. No, the fact I’m alive and healthy is proof they DO work. Every doctor I’ve spoken to about how I could get measles despite being vaccinated have agreed that, given how sick I got, I ended up with a much stronger strain than normal. And I was *sick*. My eyes were attacked and I had to have horribly stinging eye drops to protect them. All I did was sleep, with my parents carrying me from our couch to my bed every day. Fortunately I didn’t need to be hospitalized, but every doctor has also agreed that the vaccination helped me fight the infection off and make a full recovery. Vaccines aren’t perfect, but no medicine is. For some they can cause bad reactions, but any medication you take has that potential. How one person reacts to a medication is *never* the same for another person – that’s why there are multiple medications for the same ailments. But do we all avoid all medications simply because there’s the very small chance there may be a reaction to it? No! So why are vaccines treated as if they have to be all magical for 7 billion people or they shouldn’t be used by anyone?! That’s ridiculous and very lazy thinking. Do we all reject penicillin because some people are allergic? Nope! So, again, why act that way about vaccines? Vaccines work, period. Otherwise smallpox would never been eradicated, and diseases like polio wouldn’t have almost disappeared in much of the world. Use some simple logic and vaccinate your kids if you can!

    Like

  67. Chris
    January 10, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    The “Mr. McNamara” who claims his first name is “Larry” is definitely not the “Lawrence McNamara” posting on the SacBee comment thread. The one here has appropriated a name of a reasonable person who says things like:

    Todd – When you can’t fight with facts, fight dirty – seems to be the mantra of the anti-vaccine crowd. I am an open book (especially on here it seems) – I’ll argue the evidence any day of the week, whereas cia will argue with none.

    Like

  68. lilady
    January 11, 2013 at 12:27 am

    @ AMMR…I have a simple explanation for you about your measles case contracted ~ 1986-87.

    You only had one measles vaccine (either one single antigen measles vaccine in infancy or one triple antigen MMR if you were immunized against measles when you were older).

    Approximately 5 % of people who receive one measles vaccine, will not be immunized against the virus. Therefore a second dose of MMR vaccine was recommended by the CDC:

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/a-look-at-each-vaccine/mmr-measles-mumps-and-rubella-vaccine.html

    “Why do children have to get two doses of MMR vaccine?

    In the early 1990s, a second dose of the MMR vaccine was recommended. This recommendation was made because outbreaks of measles swept across the United States in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Most of the people who were infected with measles during
    these epidemics were adolescents and young adults. An investigation of what went wrong found that many people who caught measles had never been immunized. So the primary reason for recommending a second dose of MMR was to give children two chances to get one vaccine.

    The other reason that a second dose of MMR vaccine was recommended was to allow for more children to develop a protective immune response. About 95 of every 100 children will develop immunity after one shot, but about 99 of 100 children will develop immunity to measles after two shots. Immunizing that additional 4 percent of children is important when trying to protect against a disease as highly contagious as measles.

    The addition of mumps and rubella vaccines in this recommendation increases the percentage of children who develop immune responses to those viruses as well.

    Should teenagers and adults get the MMR vaccine?

    The MMR vaccine should be given to any teenager or adult who has not received two doses of the vaccine or has not had natural measles virus infection.”

    There you go AMMR. You’ve taken the first step to become a expert in immunology. 🙂

    Like

  69. Chris
    January 11, 2013 at 12:37 am

    lilady:

    You only had one measles vaccine

    Since she got measles at age three, no matter what time period she would have only had one MMR vaccine. At first the second MMR was before entry into junior high/middle school, and then a few years later it was moved to age four to five.

    Though my family doctor gave my two younger kids the second MMR before it was required for them (it was right after the age was moved 4/5) because there was a measles outbreak at a local private school.

    Like

  70. Chris
    January 11, 2013 at 12:38 am

    By the way, I commend AMMR for telling us her story.

    Like

  71. lilady
    January 11, 2013 at 1:01 am

    I need reading glasses. I misread AMMR’s comment as being she was “31”

    I’ve been busted…sigh.

    Like

  72. Chris
    January 11, 2013 at 2:36 am

    It happens to the best of us.

    Like

  73. January 11, 2013 at 7:02 am

    @Chris – In grade school (and at least once in Junior High) we had a few outbreaks of mumps. Luckily, they were very minor and involved only a very small number of students – but the situations were taken very seriously and there were students who were either sent home for the requisite three weeks (or longer) or inoculated at the time.

    I don’t hear about it as much anymore – mainly because Maryland is a high-vaccination rate state, but I’m sure it will become a concern again once my kids are finally in school. Fingers-crossed that rates continue to hold steady or even increase.

    Like

  74. Stu
    January 11, 2013 at 10:32 am

    So yes, Hippo is Thingy, who believes that children will never be infected as long as they stay on the sidewalk; that vaccines are administered intravenously; and many, many more clinically insane things.

    Like

  75. Christine Vara
    January 11, 2013 at 11:48 am

    Just thought I would share this piece I read in my daily news feed today. Looks like the push-back from this self-published book may make it more difficult to come by.

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health-fitness/controversial-anti-vaccination-book-removed-from-sale/story-fneuzlbd-1226551911539

    Like

  76. January 11, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    @Christine – great that they’ve recognized the danger of a book like that & pulled it. The reaction of the author is somewhat terrifying “I don’t care.” though not unexpected since she feels measles “aren’t that bad.”

    She should talk to Ronald Dahl & see if he feels the same way.

    Like

  77. Julie
    January 11, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    I think Mr. Dahl died in 1990 but he has a somewhat famous granddaughter (model cookbook author Sophie). I understand this book is still sold on Amazon – under pressure Amazon recently withdrew a book that advocated pedophelia. A book advocating a form of child abuse imo or at the very least a book advocating very dangerous advice about how to safeguard the health of children should be a candidate for removal. Seems like a good candidate for a petition if there isn’t one already.

    Like

  78. lilady
    January 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Great News and Catherina at the “Just the Vax” blog has an article up, as well.

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2013/01/messengers-muddled-message.html

    Like

  79. Julie
    January 11, 2013 at 1:24 pm
  80. Hippocrates
    January 11, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Stu,

    So yes, Hippo is Thingy, who believes that children will never be infected as long as they stay on the sidewalk;

    Let’s just say that one should never underestimate your infection-promoting capacity.

    that vaccines are administered intravenously; and many, many more clinically insane things.

    Clinically insane, this??

    Like

  81. Hippocrates
    January 11, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    January 2012
    The Sanaria®PfSPZ Vaccine is being assessed in a clinical trial at the Vaccine Research Center, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health (Press Release). The VRC investigators are recruiting additional volunteers for the study (contact NIAID here and ask to participate in the Sanaria®PfSPZ Vaccine study)

    Like

  82. Hippocrates
    January 11, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    So Julie have you found any “investors” yet?

    Like

  83. Hippocrates
    January 11, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    Vaccines aren’t perfect, but no medicine is.

    False analogy. Next.

    Like

  84. lilady
    January 11, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Go away Insane Troll.

    Like

  85. January 11, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    Something I found shockingly telling about the woman who authored this book, her child died from what she claims was a vaccine reaction. It turns out it was something called Alexander’s disease (I don’t know anything about it). But in an interview with her that I watched yesterday, when she was speaking about her child who died and what her child went through, she referred to her child as, ‘it’. I don’t care how much pain a mother is in when losing a child, it is definitely not a normal reaction to that loss to dehumanize their child in such a way. Slightly off topic maybe, but thought it an interesting, if scary, bi-line on the author of the book in question.

    Like

  86. Binky Boy
    January 11, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Would be interested in seeing the interview if you wouldn’t mind posting. I found her story here http://naturematters.info/

    Like

  87. Lara Lohne
    January 11, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    This is the news article that shows an excerpt of an interview where she talks about her child as ‘it’.

    Like

  88. Binky Boy
    January 11, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    Thanks! very interesting…the “its” is hard to read the meaning and may be part of the Australian lingo or something?

    Like

  89. Stu
    January 11, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    Okay, quick run-down on Alexander disease:

    Alexander disease is a slowly progressing and fatal neurodegenerative disease. It is a very rare disorder which results from a genetic mutation and mostly affects infants and children, causing developmental delay and changes in physical characteristics.

    Alexander disease causes the affected person to slowly begin to lose body function and eventually the ability to talk.

    It is possible to detect the signs of Alexander disease with Magnetic Resonance Imaging, which looks for specific changes in the brain that may be tell-tale signs for the disease. [See! All we have to do is MRI every single infant to prevent this!]

    There are no more than 500 reported cases.

    The prognosis is generally poor. With early onset, death usually occurs within 10 years after the onset of symptoms. Usually, the later the disease occurs, the slower its course is.

    Like

  90. dingo199
    January 11, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Mr. McNamara :
    I would rather risk 1 of 1000 for getting the Measles and Encephalitis than 1 in 100′s for risk of a vaccine injury.

    Larry, the risks from acute measles in the first world include hospitalisation in around 20%, usually from pneumonia or some other form of sepsis like otitis or gastroenteritis. These are “serious” complications – rate is 1 per 5 cases.
    Encephalitis occurs in around 1:1000, and death in around the same number (dependent on country it varies from about 2 per 1000 in France to 1 per 5000 in UK).

    However MMR vaccine causes serious side effects in far fewer than 1 per 1000. Encephalitis/ADEM occurs in 1 per million shots. Death in fewer than that, usually from anaphylaxis if it happens.

    Now you were saying….?

    Like

  91. dingo199
    January 11, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Binky Boy :
    Thanks! very interesting…the “its” is hard to read the meaning and may be part of the Australian lingo or something?

    No.
    She is calling her child “it”.
    Digusting.

    Like

  92. January 11, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    @guys – I would prefer if MM was not addressed by name, it’s creeping me out…..

    Like

  93. Stu
    January 11, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Lawrence: THAT is what is creeping you out?!

    Like

  94. January 11, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    @stu – sorry, it’s a personal preference thing….I detest when someone steals my name.

    Like

  95. Chris
    January 11, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    Well, then MM should be banned. What is worse than being a sock puppet is pretending to be someone who regularly posts comments on the blog.

    Like

  96. Mr. McNamara
    January 11, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Have no idea what you are talking about….I have not pretended to be anybody else. Please provide the comment where I did this! I see no other Mr. McNamara’s commenting.

    Like

  97. Stu
    January 11, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    Stupid troll is trolling. Film at 11.

    Like

  98. January 11, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    @Chris – absolutely, I’ve been a bit vague on the situation, but MM is most likely a troll, using information gained from posts at the Sacramento Bee.

    Like

  99. Chris
    January 11, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Kind of like the time when someone pretended to be Gray Falcon.

    Like

  100. Mr. McNamara
    January 11, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    What is your problem Lawrence!!!?? I have never heard of the Sacramento Bee. Again, please prove to me that I pretended to be someone else or claimed to be somebody else, or even eluded to being someone else!!!

    Like

  101. Mr. McNamara
    January 12, 2013 at 12:35 am

    dingo, your statement….. “However MMR vaccine causes serious side effects in far fewer than 1 per 1000. Encephalitis/ADEM occurs in 1 per million shots. Death in fewer than that, usually from anaphylaxis if it happens.”

    Is not a fact.

    Like

  102. lilady
    January 12, 2013 at 12:43 am

    Just ignore MM…it is so obvious it is a sock puppet. I’ve had a cyber stalking troll on the Ho-Po and on Respectful Insolence for the past several weeks. You all will recall that troll was posting under a number of her sockies including “Sick Sauce”.

    That last sentence from MM is a “keeper”..lying troll inadvertently uses “eluded”.

    Like

  103. Gray Falcon
    January 12, 2013 at 12:43 am

    Mr. McNamara :
    dingo, your statement….. “However MMR vaccine causes serious side effects in far fewer than 1 per 1000. Encephalitis/ADEM occurs in 1 per million shots. Death in fewer than that, usually from anaphylaxis if it happens.”
    Is not a fact.

    Tell that to the CDC, which was where he got those statements. Now, do you have any evidence of your own?

    Like

  104. Mr. McNamara
    January 12, 2013 at 1:31 am

    Do you believe everything you read Gray Falcon?

    lilady, Yes, that must have been a Freudian slip up eh….the word should have been alluded.

    Still waiting for evidence that I am a cyber stalker or have ever tried to impersonate someone?? Anybody? Lots of accusations and no evidence? Because it isn’t so, feel free to scroll up and read my comments on this thread or anywhere else.

    I think you are breaking the rules, what is it? Accusations without evidence?

    Like

  105. novalox
    January 12, 2013 at 2:48 am

    @mm

    Making threats now, are we?

    Trying to deflect the utter lack of evidence of your position?

    And since is when posting actual evidence indicative of accusations?

    You are the one posting accusations without evidence.

    But please, keep posting and making a food of yourself. It is evidently clear that you are here just to troll and not to contribute to a productive conversation.

    Like

  106. dingo199
    January 12, 2013 at 8:27 am

    Mr. McNamara :
    dingo, your statement….. “However MMR vaccine causes serious side effects in far fewer than 1 per 1000. Encephalitis/ADEM occurs in 1 per million shots. Death in fewer than that, usually from anaphylaxis if it happens.”
    Is not a fact.

    Yes it is a fact.
    https://www.wp.dh.gov.uk/immunisation/files/2012/07/Chap-21-dh_122643.pdf

    Like

  107. dingo199
    January 12, 2013 at 8:35 am

    In fact, encephalitis aftrer measles vaccine/MMR is so rare that individual case reports are the norm in peer-reviewed literature. Here is a paper about one case, which refers to only 2 other cases, all of them innumocompromised (so they would never have usually got vaccinated in the first place). God forbid what happens when these kids get virulent, wild-type natural measles rather than a benign vaccine strain.

    Tell you what MM, you think encephalitis is common after MMR vaccine, stump up with some evidence of your own.
    (And no, old references as to how the earlier versions of MMR which had Urabe strain mumps and caused a mild aseptic meningitis in one case per 14000 vaccine shots does not count)

    Like

  108. dingo199
    January 12, 2013 at 8:35 am
  109. January 12, 2013 at 8:55 am

    @Chris – well, this Lawrence McNamara doesn’t believe MM is anything more than a sock puppet. And I never go by Larry – ever.

    MM goes into the ignore bucket & I’ll just put in a request to Christine to check MM’s IP information when she gets the chance (no rush, of course, I know she’s very busy).

    Like

  110. January 12, 2013 at 8:56 am

    @Dingo – I think the HepA vaccine is another one that doesn’t have any serious reactions either. Amazing how anti-vaccine folks can just blindly ignore science and facts….but then again, I guess it should be expected.

    Like

  111. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 10:45 am

    Amazing how anti-vaccine folks can just blindly ignore science and facts….but then again, I guess it should be expected.

    Oh really? Then why none of you stand up and offer a little help to Julie who’s obviously misinformed about shingles?

    Like

  112. January 12, 2013 at 11:35 am

    novalox – really? What threat is that? You are so ignorant.

    dingo – “Tell you what MM, you think encephalitis is common after MMR vaccine, stump up with some evidence of your own.” I think risk of injury from a vaccine is greater than 1 in 1000.

    Lawrence, I put in my request to Christine. You and your friends are the ones breaking the rules.

    Like

  113. Lawrence
    January 12, 2013 at 11:42 am

    @MM – submit your evidence then, because we have shown that your belief is false.

    Otherwise, leave.

    Like

  114. Gray Falcon
    January 12, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    @MM- Thinking something is true doesn’t make it true. You know that.

    Like

  115. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it.

    Did Roald deliberately infect her daughter with measles?

    Like

  116. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Does anyone know what MM is talking about when he says I am confused about shingles? I can’t get a coherent explaination or clarification from MM. His comic relief isn’t helping. Because if I am someone should let Dr. Lara know she is too. Other than that am glad to be following this comment stream as plenty of useful solid information is being shared. Thanks!

    Like

  117. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    Oh excuse me it was hippo. Anyone know what he is talking about?

    Like

  118. January 12, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    @Julie – insane troll is certifiable (just look at its last post as confirmation). Just ignore.

    Like

  119. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Roald wasn’t a her. His wife detailed quite eloquently how the death of his daughter impacted him in this post taken from an interview she (actress Patricia Neal) did with People magazine. http://www.roalddahlfans.com/articles/deal.php

    Like

  120. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    Julie,

    Because if I am someone should let Dr. Lara know she is too.

    Didn’t I tell you to ask her? Or any vaccinator for that matter.

    Why are you hesitant? I know it’s because you don’t want to be proven wrong. It’s quite embarrassing when you find yourself on the wrong side, isn’t it?

    Like

  121. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    @ Lawrence yup that much I am not confused about at all. However along with the link I just provided I’d note he and Patricia Neal divorced a few years after the death of their daughter. I don’t have the stats handy but I understand that is a pretty common thing to have happen to a marriage after the death of a child. I have no idea what happened in their relationship but I doubt the death of their daughter helped. Vaccinate your children.

    Like

  122. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Lawrence,

    Just answer Julie’s inquiry on shingles and don’t disappoint her.

    Put up or shut up.

    Like

  123. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    by the way the intro to the link above states Olivia wasn’t immunized against measles which is true but it wasn’t even available, correct me if I am wrong, until 1963 and she died in 1962. The intro seems to imply this was intentional when it was not.

    Like

  124. lilady
    January 12, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    This situation really is hilarious…MM reminds me of the sockie who used Lara’s last name and the sockie who used the Latin word for “dingo”. Into the “ignore bin” until Christine Vara comes back.

    As I mentioned before ~ 1940, an older cousin contracted measles and developed measles encephalitis. He recovered from the encephalitis but was left with permanent neurological sequelae. My childhood chum succumbed to polio.

    My son had pancytopenia with megaloblastic anemia and depressed overall low WBCs. To add to his problems he had thrombocytopenia along with prolonged bleeding time (prolonged platelet aggregation and platelet adhesion). He did have many fever induced grand mal seizures and fever-induced internal bleeds. It was essential that he was immunized completely and according to the CDC time schedule, so that he did not contract any of the vaccine-preventable diseases. When he was born in 1976, there were no vaccines developed for chicken pox (he contracted the virus in his teen years) and no vaccines developed for bacterial meningitis. We were fortunate that he didn’t contract these invasive deadly bacterial diseases.

    Please continue to ignore the trolls and the sockies.

    Like

  125. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    by the way the intro to the link above states Olivia wasn’t immunized against measles which is true but it wasn’t even available, correct me if I am wrong, until 1963 and she died in 1962. The intro seems to imply this was intentional when it was not.

    The truth is Roald had deliberately infected his daughter with measles like so with other parents who opined that natural infection is the best immunizing method.You can’t possibly argue with that.

    Like

  126. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    @hippy any evidence that he went to a measles party – like a pox party? And yes many parents are under the very wrong impression that natural immunity is better than vaccination thanks to the misinformation being provided by the type of book we are talking about in this post. The solid evidence provided in this comment stream shows how that simply is not true thanks to all. (or most) BTW since the man has been dead since 1990 he isn’t here to defend himself.

    Like

  127. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Julie,

    Vaccinate your children

    You know for sure that’s very irresponsible.

    Like

  128. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    @hippy any evidence that he went to a measles party – like a pox party?

    I didn’t say he went to a measles party.

    Like

  129. January 12, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    @insane troll – why don’t you answer my question about your beliefs? Because otherwise, we’ll all just assume that you agree with our estimation of you.

    Like

  130. January 12, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    @Julie – insane troll, again, believes that people should immediately be able to identify infected individuals & pathogens in the air, therefore – if someone gets infected, it is their own fault, because they did not take the proper precautions (though insane troll refuses to elaborate on what those precautions should be).

    So, in its own warped world, it is always “intentional infection” regardless of the circumstances.

    Like

  131. January 12, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    @Julie – and again, demonstrating that insane troll is so far down the Rabbit Hole when it comes to being a living, breathing example of the “Perfect World” and “Nirvana” Fallacies that its picture should be beside them in the dictionary.

    Like

  132. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @lawrence – I don’t think we’ll get any clarity from hippy but thanks for offering some. But it does bring us to a good topic: natural immunity. Come to think of it where the natural immunity thing is concerned I don’t see parents rushing to certain parts of the world to get natural immunity to things like polio. I’d think if natural immunity is so great there would be VPD parties across our great nation. Nor do I see them clamoring to visit kids in ICUs across the country to see if they or their kids can catch measles from a child who now needs intensive care because “natural immunity” is so much better. What I did recently read about are parents that did not vaccinate against measles at a Waldorf school where vaccination rates are quite low in keeping with their philosophy. After a measles outbreak the vast majority of the school has to be told not to come to school. And then a good portion of the parents of those kids rethink the whole “natural immunity’ is great thing and vaccinate for measles. Reality does have a bite.

    Like

  133. January 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    How I wish there was a way to tell if an individual was contagious with a disease before coming into contact with them. And how I wish pathogens were visible to the naked eye. That would make avoiding infection so much easier. Unfortunately, without symptoms being present, there isn’t any way to know if an individual has an infection and there is also no way of knowing if that person is spreading their infection.

    Unless thingy is suggesting we all wear masks, wear gloves, carry a constant supply of hand sanitizer and avoid people, there is not a way to avoid infection. How I wish there was, because the first that I heard about a chicken pox out break at my children’s school, was when they came home and told me a boy in their class was home sick with chicken pox. The next day, my children had it. Nothing intentional about that infection, it just happened. And it was before the vaccine was available so I couldn’t have gotten them vaccinated yet. But just like stubbing your toe on things, nobody intends for that to happen, but still it happens. To insist that disease infection is intentional is irrational, illogical and completely ludicrous.

    Like

  134. Mr. McNamara
    January 12, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    lilady….anectodal.

    Like

  135. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Lawrence,

    why don’t you answer my question about your beliefs? Because otherwise, we’ll all just assume that you agree with our estimation of you.

    My belief is that you’re highly invested in shingles and that you’re persuading everybody to do the same.

    Rule #1, Lawrence, Rule #1.

    Like

  136. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Before a vaccine was available for chicken pox I can understand why some people did expose their kids at pox parties because they knew adult onset was much worse and complications much more likely. Now we have a better choice – we can vaccinate.Just wish there was one for mononucleosis (sp?) – I had that as a child and it was god awful too but I understand getting a vax for that is much more complicated and difficult.

    Like

  137. Lara Lohne
    January 12, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    On another point, the best way we have thus far to avoid infection is vaccination (operative word here being BEST, knowing it is not perfect, since nothing in this world is). Anyone who suggests otherwise is fooling themselves.

    Like

  138. January 12, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Julie – clear as mud, is all you’re get from insane troll. In its mind, “natural immunity” is still “intentional infection” because of the “Nirvana & Perfect World Fallacies” of believing it can avoid any and all infections or pathogens at all times.

    For example, it would call my catching of Chicken Pox when I was six, an “intentional infection” because I should have been able to avoid (through whatever precautions – which it never articulates) contact with whomever I received Chicken Pox from, because even without showing any symptoms, I should have “known” that particular individual was infected.

    Likewise, a person should be able to identify pathogens in the air or water, and avoid them, etc, etc, etc.

    This is why the moniker has stuck – insane troll from Htrae doesn’t live in the same reality as the rest of us, use words & definitions as a normal person would, and definitely shows signs of serious mental illness in its years of random postings.

    Like

  139. January 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    @MM – I’m not seeing any of your “evidence.” Care to share? Because, if not – just leave, troll.

    Like

  140. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Lawrence,

    insane troll, again, believes that people should immediately be able to identify infected individuals & pathogens in the air, therefore – if someone gets infected, it is their own fault, because they did not take the proper precautions (though insane troll refuses to elaborate on what those precautions should be).

    So, in its own warped world, it is always “intentional infection” regardless of the circumstances.

    WWYD if you want to intentionally immunize your child sans the vaccine? You’ll do the Roalds style..

    Do you disagree?

    Like

  141. January 12, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    @insano-troll – because people just never “get infected” in your world, do they? It’s always intentional, right?

    Like

  142. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    On another point, the best way we have thus far to avoid infection is vaccination (operative word here being BEST, knowing it is not perfect, since nothing in this world is). Anyone who suggests otherwise is fooling themselves.

    I assure you that you’re fooling yourself.

    Like

  143. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Lawrence,

    because people just never “get infected” in your world, do they? It’s always intentional, right?

    Why do you ALWAYS inoculate the uninfected with infectious VZV?

    Ouch.

    Like

  144. January 12, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    @insano-troll – last point, then you’re on permanent ignore (finally!)

    Please articulate, clearly, your recommendations for the avoidance of all infected individuals, pathogens & other disease-causing vectors.

    And, as it applies to measles, before vaccines, just about 100% of the population could be guaranteed to catch the disease – because it is so virulent & easily transmittable – so again, we come back to your definition of “intentional” which applies to every form of infection, regardless of circumstance, correct?

    Like

  145. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    Lawrence,

    Please articulate, clearly, your recommendations for the avoidance of all infected individuals, pathogens & other disease-causing vectors.

    Did you notice the Nirvana-fallacy meter just exploded before you?

    Like

  146. novalox
    January 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    @mm

    Yawn, your petty little childish insults don’t carry much weight here. But thanks for considering me such an intellectual heavyweight compared to you.

    So, [citation needed], or be considered an utter liar.

    Like

  147. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    And, as it applies to measles, before vaccines, just about 100% of the population could be guaranteed to catch the disease – because it is so virulent & easily transmittable – so again, we come back to your definition of “intentional” which applies to every form of infection, regardless of circumstance, correct?

    So now you’re agreeing with me when I said naturally acquired immunity occurs when the actions are not deliberate compared to the likes of you and pox party moms who are deliberate infection promoters?

    Also, you said something about measles being “guaranteed”, are you implying the actions to cause measles were deliberate?

    Like

  148. January 12, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    @novalox – I anticipate that MM will accuse all of us being bullies (in fact, he already has) for demanding evidence to back up his “beliefs” and assertions.

    Like

  149. novalox
    January 12, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    @Lawrence

    Well, you have to remember with cranks and anti-vaxxers is that since they have no evidence for their beliefs, they have to resort to the persecution angle.

    Which is utterly silly and shows the moral bankruptcy of their position.

    Sill, it could make for some good guffaws and entertainment if mm does go on the persecution and ad hominem angle.

    I’ve got some popcorn ready, should be entertaining,

    Like

  150. Hippocrates
    January 12, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    So just like Chris, Roald played with fire and got burned. The unfortunate thing is someone else has to pay the price.

    Crazy. And even more so now that there is a flu epidemic and not one vaccinator was able to post a tad of concern in the latest flu thread.

    Crazy, indeed.

    Like

  151. lilady
    January 12, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    Here’s another example of the devastation visited upon babies whose mothers contracted rubella during their pregnancy. Gene Tierney a beautiful American actress contracted rubella during her pregnancy and her daughter Daria was born with Congenital Rubella Syndrome.

    http://voices.yahoo.com/the-effects-german-measles-developing-fetus-3932826.html

    And here, information about Congenital Rubella Syndrome and the dramatic decrease in the Syndrome since rubella vaccine was licensed:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16022642

    “The congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) involves multiple organ systems and has a long period of active infection and virus shedding in the postnatal period. For these reasons, the rubella
    vaccine program was instituted in 1969, and the incidence of rubella infection in the United States has since declined by 99%. Rubella has been recognized as a disease for approximately 200 years, and it has since been found that humans are the only natural reservoir for the rubella virus…”

    Still ignoring Insane Troll and the other sockies.

    Like

  152. Julie
    January 12, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Interesting about the Rubella vaccine actually prevents one of the few known causes of birth defects. Interesting to note when vaxes so are often accused incorrectly of doing the exact opposite.

    Like

  153. January 12, 2013 at 7:29 pm

    @Julie – Rubella has also been definitely linked to autism, as opposed to the vaccine, which has not. So, in this case, we can say that the Rubella vaccine has prevented autism.

    Like

  154. Rational Antivax
    January 13, 2013 at 7:23 am

    Interesting about the Rubella vaccine actually prevents one of the few known causes of birth defects. Interesting to note when vaxes so are often accused incorrectly of doing the exact opposite.

    There is risk with rubella vaccine and it’s called CRS.

    Like

  155. dingo199
    January 13, 2013 at 7:33 am

    Rational Antivax :

    Interesting about the Rubella vaccine actually prevents one of the few known causes of birth defects. Interesting to note when vaxes so are often accused incorrectly of doing the exact opposite.

    There is risk with rubella vaccine and it’s called CRS.

    Err…No.
    MMR/rubella vaccine does not cause congenital rubella syndrome.
    No cases have been documented. Any risks of the vaccine in pregnancy are entirely theoretical only.
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5049a5.htm
    But then I forget that evil trolls like you have an alternative reality, where things that are impossible, highly implausible and never before described seem to occur on a regular basis.

    Like

  156. Rational Antivax
    January 13, 2013 at 7:39 am

    Julie,

    Before a vaccine was available for chicken pox I can understand why some people did expose their kids at pox parties because they knew adult onset was much worse and complications much more likely. Now we have a better choice – we can vaccinate.

    Ah but you missed those people in your neighborhood who don’t intentionally expose their children to chicken pox nor deliberately infect them with the needle.

    Like

  157. dingo199
    January 13, 2013 at 7:40 am

    And please can you either ban the Hippo/Rational Antivax troll or at least force it to stop sockpuppeting?

    Like

  158. Rational Antivax
    January 13, 2013 at 7:47 am

    No cases have been documented. Any risks of the vaccine in pregnancy are entirely theoretical only.

    Really?

    Bott LM, Eizenberg DH. Congenital rubella after successful vaccination. Med J Aust 1982 Jun 12;1(12):514-5.

    We report a case of a patient who had a subclinical rubella infection in the first trimester of pregnancy which resulted in the delivery of a baby suffering from congenital rubella. Rubella virus vaccine, liver attenuated (Cendevax) vaccine had been administered to the mother nearly three years before, with proven seroconversion from a rubella haemagglutination-inhibition titre of 1:10 to 1:80.

    Now are you going to tell me the figure?

    Like

  159. Rational Antivax
    January 13, 2013 at 7:58 am

    But then I forget that evil trolls like you have an alternative reality, where things that are impossible, highly implausible and never before described seem to occur on a regular basis.

    You’re talking about the uninfected children you intentionally infect with a needle on a regular basis. That’s fairly predictable.

    Like

  160. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 8:26 am

    dingo,

    MMR/rubella vaccine does not cause congenital rubella syndrome

    Again, did your source say rubella vaccine does NOT cause CRS?

    Limiting the analysis to the 293 infants born to susceptible mothers vaccinated 1–2 weeks before to 4–6 weeks after conception, the maximum theoretical risk is 1.3%. This risk is substantially less than the >20% risk for CRS associated with maternal infection during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy.

    Like

  161. January 13, 2013 at 8:45 am

    @dingo – Christine is trying. Insano-troll is resorting to multiple upon multiple sock puppets to avoid the ban hammer.

    Like

  162. lilady
    January 13, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Still Ignoring (IR)Rational Anti-vax Insane Troll…who in addition to Its morphing into various sock puppets is posting from different IP addresses. It is that desperate for attention.

    About the theoretical risk to a fetus when a pregnant woman is vaccinated with a live vaccine…

    http://www.cfp.ca/content/57/5/555.full

    “Women are sometimes exposed to live or inactive vaccines during pregnancy or shortly before conception. Although live vaccines are contraindicated in pregnancy, that recommendation is based on theoretical risk rather than evidence. Inactive vaccines pose no theoretical risk, and recommendations reflect this.”

    That’s why the CDC established the “Vaccines in Pregnancy Registry” in 1971

    Here…where woman who inadvertently received vaccines that contained measles, mumps and rubella during pregnancy, fetal outcomes are reported…

    “There have been no reports of congenital malformations attributable to the MMR vaccine virus. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated the theoretical risk to the fetus of CRS following vaccination with the rubella vaccine to be 0% to 1.6%.2 In 1971, the CDC established the Vaccine in Pregnancy registry of women who had received rubella vaccines within 3 months before or after conception. By 1989 there were data on 1221 inadvertently vaccinated pregnant women. There was no evidence of an increase in fetal abnormalities or cases of CRS in the enrolled women or the 321 rubella-susceptible women; therefore, enrolment in the registry ended.2,3”

    And here…the Motherisk team which investigated women who had received live rubella vaccine 3 months before and 3 months into their vaccine reports their findings…

    “Motherisk conducted a prospective controlled study that included 94 women exposed to the rubella vaccine in the 3 months before conception or during the first trimester of pregnancy. The Motherisk team reported no difference in pregnancy outcomes or malformation rates between the exposed and the nonexposed groups, and no adverse effects consistent with CRS.4 These data have been confirmed in other immunization campaigns and studies.5–8”

    About the Varicella vaccine for women who received it during pregnancy….A registry was established as a joint effort between the manufacturer and the CDC and fetal outcomes for the 737 women who received the vaccine during pregnancy are reported.

    “There are no reports of congenital varicella syndrome after exposure to varicella vaccine during pregnancy. A registry was established by the manufacturer in collaboration with the CDC to monitor maternal and fetal outcomes of women who were inadvertently immunized with varicella vaccine in the 3 months before conception or at any time during pregnancy. Among the 737 women with pregnancy outcomes available, there were no patterns of defects and no infants were born with features consistent with congenital varicella syndrome among any of the women enrolled or among the seronegative women.10”

    Still the same old Thingy who is a pathological liar, who is germ phobic, who *claims* to be a nurse, who’s been banned from mothering.com and Respectful Insolence…and who hates kids.

    Like

  163. Stu
    January 13, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Ah yes, viruses have intent in Thingy-world. Almost forgot.

    Like

  164. novalox
    January 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    The fact that thingy has to resort to sock puppets to post her child-hating, disease-loving, pseudo-scientific postings to spread her hate tells a lot about her credibility, which is none.

    Like

  165. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 3:36 pm

    The fact that thingy has to resort to sock puppets to post her child-hating, disease-loving, pseudo-scientific postings to spread her hate tells a lot about her credibility, which is none.

    You knew very well who I am and my stance on vaccination. You don’t have to tell me if I’m sockpuppeting because its irrelevant—heavy bag doesn’t punch back and you know that. Why don’t you just debate like a grown up and stop making alibis.

    Like

  166. dingo199
    January 13, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    So let me get this right….

    Thingy/Hippo/Antivax troll syas “Rubella vaccine CAUSES congenital rubella syndrome”, and to prove it cites a case where rubella vaccination was ineffective, and the recipient 3 years later caught wild rubella, and got…. wait for it….. congenital rubella syndrome.
    WTF????

    Thingy is a congenital liar.

    Like

  167. January 13, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    @dingo – best to just let it be, you can’t debate someone that has no firm grip on reality.

    Like

  168. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    lilady,

    Still the same old Thingy who is a pathological liar, who is germ phobic, who *claims* to be a nurse, who’s been banned from mothering.com and Respectful Insolence…and who hates kids.

    I’ve been banned by these infection promoters because they don’t want to be recognized as such, hence I also called them germ denialists.

    Reinfection with rubella may occur and has been reported after both naturally acquired and vaccine induced infection.[…]Why some women experience reinfection with a sufficient viraemia to affect the fetus is unknown. Those with immunity induced by vaccination may be more susceptible to reinfection thank those with naturally acquired immunity because of qualitative differences in the immune response.

    Fetal infection after maternal reinfection with rubella: criteria for defining reinfection.
    J M Best, J E Banatvala, P Morgan- Capner, E Miller

    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1837646/?page=1

    Like

  169. dingo199
    January 13, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    Again, did your source say rubella vaccine does NOT cause CRS?

    Limiting the analysis to the 293 infants born to susceptible mothers vaccinated 1–2 weeks before to 4–6 weeks after conception, the maximum theoretical risk is 1.3%. This risk is substantially less than the >20% risk for CRS associated with maternal infection during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy.

    Yes it did say rubella vaccine does not cause CRS. It never happened in all the instances when vaccine was given in pregnancy, which is a good indication it doesn’t cause the problem. Now statistically, based upon the numbers studied, one can calculate confidence limits for the 0% association. This will never have a range of 0-0%, unless you could study an infinite number of cases, but it will always have a “maximum” limit (which in this case was 1.3%).

    To put it in perspective, the exact same statistical degree of risk would apply for estimates of rubella vaccine causing babies to turn green with yellow polka dots. In thingy world, this means vaccine causes polka dot babies.

    There is a higher chance of rubella vaccine curing autism, statistically. So there….rubella vaccine cures autism. Go tell your friends, troll.

    Like

  170. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Thingy/Hippo/Antivax troll syas “Rubella vaccine CAUSES congenital rubella syndrome”, and to prove it cites a case where rubella vaccination was ineffective, and the recipient 3 years later caught wild rubella, and got…. wait for it….. congenital rubella syndrome.
    WTF????

    I’m afraid you didn’t comprehend it very well buddy. The recipient did NOT catch the wild-type rubella otherwise it would be a rubella REINFECTION. Since primary rubella infection was induced by the vaccine, the vaccine therefore was the culprit. Also you have to take note of this,

    A rubella-infected fetus carried to term maybe born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS). Some defects associated with CRS maybe recognizable at birth, while others are detected months or even years later.

    h_ttp://www.who.int/vaccines-documents/DocsPDF99/www9934.pdf

    Like

  171. dingo199
    January 13, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    The malignant stupidity of the troll is quite awesome.
    I didn’t realize people that stupid could read, let alone type on a keyboard, but I guess I was wrong.

    Like

  172. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    dingo,

    You’re confabulating.

    Where is your evidence that the recipient was exposed to the wild-type rubella?

    Put up or shut up.

    Like

  173. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    To put it in perspective, the exact same statistical degree of risk would apply for estimates of rubella vaccine causing babies to turn green with yellow polka dots. In thingy world, this means vaccine causes polka dot babies.

    Or cause babies to turn yellow. Oh wait…

    Like

  174. Rational Antivaxx
    January 13, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    dingo,<<blockquote

    Thingy/Hippo/Antivax troll syas “Rubella vaccine CAUSES congenital rubella syndrome”, and to prove it a case where rubella vaccination was ineffective, and the recipient 3 years later caught wild rubella, and got…. wait for it….. congenital rubella syndrome.
    WTF????

    Sorry but I just couldn’t ignore it. This confabulating dyslexic didn’t even bother reading the title.

    Bott LM, Eizenberg DH. Congenital rubella after successful vaccination. Med J Aust 1982 Jun 12;1(12):514-5.

    I guess he doesn’t even know how to read Ab titers.

    Like

  175. lilady
    January 13, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    @ dingo199: Insane Troll interprets a subclinical infection with the actual rubella virus as being caused by the vaccine given 3 years before.

    Insane Troll still things that we infect babies with each and every antigen that we provide to them in vaccines, and is totally unaware of “secondary” vaccine failure (a.k.a. waning immunity) for a vaccine given three years prior.

    Insane Troll who is Still the same old Thingy who is a pathological liar, who is germ phobic, who *claims* to be a nurse and who was banned from Respectful Insolence because of her vicious vile remarks directed at me and others who have developmentally disabled children. She repeated told me and other parents that our childrens’ disabilities were caused by our infected them with the vaccines that they were given.

    Like

  176. Stu
    January 13, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    lilady: Umm… remember, in Thingy world, sub-clinical infection is just as bad as an actual infection.

    Actually, back to the intent; sub-clinical infection from a vaccine is MUCH worse than actual “natural” infection.

    Which is odd, because infection should not happen as long as people only play on the sidewalk.

    Anyway, am I wrong here Thingy?

    Like

  177. Christopher Haynees
    February 18, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    According to two Merck scientists who filed a False Claims Act complaint in 2010 — a complaint which has just now been unsealed — vaccine manufacturer Merck knowingly falsified its mumps vaccine test data, spiked blood samples with animal antibodies, sold a vaccine that actually promoted mumps and measles outbreaks, and ripped off governments and consumers who bought the vaccine thinking it was “95% effective.”

    http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/02/18/6755/

    Like

  178. Lawrence
    February 18, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    @christopher – old news. We were talking about this back in 2011. The Department of Justice investigated the claims and declined to join the suit.

    Sounds like sour grapes by employees that were fired or let go.

    Like

  179. Christopher Haynees
    February 18, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    In 2010 the government did nothing…thus the law suit. We shall see how it turns out. I’m sure it won’t be good for Merck.

    Like

  180. February 18, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    @Christopher – we’ll wait and see. The DOJ investigated the case thoroughly and decided not to proceed….I doubt anything will come of this (disgruntled employees).

    Like

  181. Christopher Haynees
    February 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    This isn’t the first time Merck and others have pulled this…..I won’t be surprised to find out it is all true. I will hold off on judgement until the law suit is over.

    Like

  182. Lawrence
    February 18, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    Doesn’t sound like you are withholding judgement.

    The plaintiffs have to prove their case first….we’ll wait and see.

    Like

  183. Christopher Haynees
    February 18, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    As I said, this isn’t the first time they have pulled this kind of stuff….so I don’t have much faith.

    Like

  184. Chris
    February 19, 2013 at 3:35 am

    Mr. Haynees, what has changed in the last several months? Seriously?

    How has research on mumps vaccine strains been a global secret? Do you think the Urabe or Rubini strains are safer? If so, do tell us why.

    Next thing you will tell us is that Wakefield has posted an appeal over the lawsuit dismissal against the BMJ. Seriously, dude, sound the alarm when you have something more than a random press release. Recently I just saw one from a law firm claiming there was some “new research”, except they cited a paper from 2002 (over a decade old) from some guy who screwed up so bad he was no longer at that particular university. And, just a day later that press release disappeared from the Googles.

    This is why we insist on real scientific documentation. That means no press releases, and definitely nothing from lawyers.

    Like

  185. Christopher Haynees
    February 19, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Ms. Chris, Really? Because to me it is all about trust. If I can’t trust them then why should I believe anything they say? Too me, this is huge.

    “Dude” is dated unless you live in California.

    Like

  186. February 19, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Worrying over a mump strain that has been used for over forty years is also dated.

    Trust the scientific literature not a random press release.

    Like

  187. February 19, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    @Chris – good point. You’d think, if there actually was a problem with the vaccine, that we would have seen evidence of that in the general population over the past couple of a decades…..but we haven’t, have we?

    Like

  188. Lara Lohne
    February 19, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Trust is earned. It can be unearned, but the reasons need to be valid. At this point in time you’ve not provided anything valid as proof to make anyone untrustworthy. Most corporations (regardless of industry) are going to sometimes be found to be doing some shady dealings, and pharmaceutical companies have in the past ‘fast tracked’ or pushed some medication through the research and safety protocols to get them approved an on the market for consumers. After a time, those that had not previously been tested for safety vigorously enough, and found to have severe or danger side effects were pulled from the market. However, they do not have the ability to do this with vaccinations, they are not under their control in that regard. Vaccine manufacturers manufacture the vaccines and run safety trials that are controlled by the FDA and other government organizations. The vaccines are developed by virologists and other scientists in the field. There is also not a push for them to fast track a vaccine because vaccines are not big money makers for them. It is more likely the drugs they will make billions on (Viagra) that are fast tracked through safety trials and vaccines just don’t foot the bill for them, literally. If you want to discredit pharmaceutical companies and the vaccination initiative all together, you’ll need to try a little harder then that, seriously dude. (it’s a word, anyone can use it, if they feel the need, don’t get your pants in a twist about it.

    Like

  189. Christopher Haynees
    February 19, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    Lara, pulled way too late after knowingly injuring and killing people. Nice. And she can use “dude” all she wants…just letting her know it is a very dated term, so please don’t get your panties in a bunch.

    Like

  190. Chris
    February 19, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    Mr. Haynees, do you have a point? Do you even know which mumps vaccine strain it is? Is it Rubini, Urabe or Jeryl Lynn? Is that strain used only in the USA or in other countries by other countries?

    Like

  191. August 9, 2013 at 4:34 am

    Apart from just buying wholesale items, you can also plan to set up a wholesale clothing business.
    The majority of ladies have many purses – one for this
    outfit or one for these colors and another for another color of clothe.

    If you decide to start an online clothing business, keep these
    5 business secrets of successful businessmen to help you find
    the best wholesale clothing companies who can offer you the best deals.

    Like

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: