Home > Uncategorized > My Daughter Got a Flu Shot And Still Got the Flu

My Daughter Got a Flu Shot And Still Got the Flu

Last week I received a call referring to what I jokingly called the “Holiday Illness Trifecta”. School administrators initiated the county-wide call to alert parents to three illnesses that were plaguing the community; pertussis, flu and strep.

Between the Facebook updates I had been reading from friends, and the reports my kids were giving me about the low attendance at school, I can’t say that I was very surprised. Concerned yes. But surprised? No. And unfortunately, even though everyone in my family received a flu shot and are up to date on their Tdap boosters, I realize that immunizations are not 100% effective. In other words, as long as there is illness circulating in our communities, than it there is still a chance that we may get sick.

The ripples of illness even impacted our holiday party this past weekend. My husband and I had invited 60 people to our home for a neighborhood celebration. However, in the days just prior to the event, about half of our guests had called, texted or emailed with their last-minute regrets. The recurring explanation was that someone – or everyone – in their house was sick. While I was grateful that they decided to stay home, I knew it was likely that some of those in attendance might be sharing more than holiday cheer.

Then, it finally hit home.

The day after our party, my oldest daughter began feeling ill. Nothing too terribly bad. Mostly a sore throat, some minor congestion and fatigue. I figured it was probably because she was up late and needed rest. Over the course of the next few days, her condition went from worse, to better, to not so good again, with a low-grade fever that seemed to come and go. Finally, concerned that her sore throat was not going away, I took her to the doctor to ensure she didn’t have strep before heading off to visit family this weekend.

That is when we got the surprising diagnosis of flu.

JessicaStrongI never would have guessed that she had the flu. Her symptoms just didn’t present the way in which I would have expected them to.  While some may question why I would bother getting her the flu vaccine, when she ultimately ended up with the flu, we were relieved to see that her case is mild, especially in comparison to the many people we know who are suffering from the flu in our area.  In fact, one of the first things she said after receiving the diagnosis was,

 “Good thing I got vaccinated.  I can’t imagine how I might be feeling if I hadn’t.”

It’s true that flu season started early this year, and there have already been reports of several deaths from the flu, including some infants.  But the point of this post is to help provide a bit of motivation for those who haven’t been vaccinated yet.  Don’t wait any longer.  Some protection is better than none.  Since there are still several months left before we can bid flu season goodbye, it’s best to get vaccinated today.

Now, as we look forward to my daughter’s return to “normal” activities, we want to ensure she doesn’t pass her infection on to anyone else, including our four other immunized children, my elderly aunt, our expectant family members and my cousin’s infant child.  We found this information on the CDC website about how the flu can be spread to be helpful and informative.

HOW THE FLU SPREADS:

Person to Person

People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might also get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth or nose.

(To avoid this, people should wash their hands often with soap and water. If soap and water are not available, use an alcohol-based hand rub. Linens, eating utensils, and dishes belonging to those who are sick should not be shared without washing thoroughly first. Eating utensils can be washed either in a dishwasher or by hand with water and soap and do not need to be cleaned separately.)

The Flu Is Contagious

Most healthy adults may be able to infect others beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Children may pass the virus for longer than 7 days. Symptoms start 1 to 4 days after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some persons can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those persons may still spread the virus to others.

Since there is no way to completely avoid exposure to the flu, especially when it is so prevalent in your community, the flu vaccine continues to be one of the best preventive measures we can take.  Today I am grateful that my family was vaccinated this season, because otherwise we might all be very sick right now.  Too sick to write this post.  Too sick to enjoy more holiday celebrations with family.

So, as the last post of 2012, I would like to wish you all a very happy and healthy new year.

  1. December 27, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    “Don’t wait any longer. Some protection is better than none. Since there are still several months left before we can bid flu season goodbye, it’s best to get vaccinated today.”

    That’s such an important message to get across, especially for those immunocompromised and weak immune systems to begin with. The flu shot can mean a difference between a mild case or a case of the flu that sends you to the ICU. And with the pattern this particular flu season is following, I sincerely hope that parents are vaccinating their young and vulnerable children. It’s shaping up to be a rough year. An interesting tool to track the flu activity is Google’s Flu Trends- http://www.google.org/flutrends/us/#US

    Like

  2. Laura Jane
    December 27, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    No. Don’t get vaccinated. It’ll just make things worse. Most people who get the Flu shot end up having the flu, where as people who do not get vaccinated do not get the flu. I have never gotten a vaccine in my life and have never gotten the flu. Do NOT vaccinate your children, they have very dangerous chemicals that mess up their brain, immune system, heart, lungs, and body. Children have died or have been paralyzed from vaccines. STOP VACCINES. If you want to live a healthy life, stop vaccinating NOW.

    Like

  3. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    Laura Jane:

    No. Don’t get vaccinated. It’ll just make things worse.

    There is a link in the story about the statistics for this year’s flu season, and it shows eight pediatric deaths. Please tell us exactly with real verifiable evidence that the vaccine has killed at least eight children this year or any year.

    Like

  4. Tobin Jones
    December 27, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    The flu shot is one of the weakest as far as protection. If you do get it, request the thimerosal free kind.
    I also choose not to get the flu shot, and I haven’t gotten the flu in years.
    Maybe I am just lucky?

    Like

  5. December 27, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    Laura Jane’s comment is entirely free of evidence or facts and is mere fearmongering. You cannot get the flu from the vaccine.

    Like

  6. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    And yet, Tobin Jones, in the large Vara household where all were vaccinated only one got the flu. Typically diseases like that affect all the others who live in the house, so without vaccination it could have been much worse for Ms. Vara.

    Now if they could only get a vaccine for strep. Though streptococcus is a sneaky bacteria and even after recovering from it you can get again, quite quickly. That happened to use when the three kids kept passing it back and forth among themselves. It took putting all of them on antibiotics at the same time to break the cycle. That was not a fun spring time.

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  7. lilady
    December 27, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    @ Laura Jane: Please provide a citation for your statement…

    “Don’t get vaccinated. It’ll just make things worse. Most people who get the Flu shot end up having the flu, where as people who do not get vaccinated do not get the flu.”

    (hint) Does the flu shot contain any live flu viruses?

    BTW, the rest of your rant is devoid of facts…and science as well.

    Like

  8. Tobin Jones
    December 27, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “Laura Jane’s comment is entirely free of evidence or facts and is mere fearmongering. You cannot get the flu from the vaccine.”

    This is not an accurate statement.

    Like

  9. December 27, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    @TJ – please explain the exact biological mechanism by which the flu vaccine is supposed to cause the flu?

    Like

  10. December 27, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    How’s the weather on Thrae, insane troll?

    Like

  11. Pediatric Doc
    December 27, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Overwhelming scientific evidence supports the recommendation for flu vaccination. That is why the vaccine is recommended by the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics), ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices), CDC (Center for Disease Control), WHO (World Health Organization), and AMA (American Medical Association).
    The flu virus itself kills approx 36,000 people each year in the US (variable depending on the season and strains circulating of course).
    When people like Laura Jane are ranting against the vaccine, not only are they spreading BS that has been disproven by overwhelming scientific evidence, they are helping to promote the death of thousands of people to what is a fairly preventable infection.
    Every expert panel currently recommends the Flu Vaccine, and they do it based on good scientific evidence…

    Like

  12. barbaraj
    December 27, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    It does make one more likely to get the flu in the few weeks following the shot, the time between vaccine and immunity. While building antibodies to the various mix, the immune system is busy and weakened to “anything” that comes it’s way during that window. Many people will catch the flu during this time, those that likely would not if they left their immune system intact. For children under six, and those with asthma, the flu shot could be the tipping point for their immune systems while offering little to no efficacy. A child with asthma who has received a flu shot stands a three fold risk of being hospitalized over an asthmatic child who has not received the shot. This isn’t a “one size fits all”. On the other hand, a healthy person between the ages of 6 and 50 could stand 60 to 70 percent chance of being protected.The elderly and small children likely are more at risk of catching the flu if they receive the shot , not because of any active flu in the vaccine, but, because of the lowering of their immune system, and the fact that NO study has ever proven it to be effective in these groups.

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  13. December 27, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    Incorrect, Barbaraj.

    Your body is bombarded with antigens on a daily basis. If your ‘logic’ were correct, you’d have keeled over dead from a ‘weakened’ immune system already.

    Please, take a remedial biology class sometime.

    Like

  14. Lawrence
    December 27, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @barbaraj – darwy is right. If our immune system was as weak as you claim, the numerous antigen responses it deals with almost continuously since birth would have killed us as a species a long time ago.

    Like

  15. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Lawrence:

    How’s the weather on Thrae, insane troll?

    It is Htrae, which is “Earth” spelled backwards. Sorry for being pedantic, but I need to get something out of reading all those Superman comics as a kid.

    barbaraj. when you make lots of assertions you must be prepared to back them up with actual evidence. As noted earlier, you cannot get flu from the vaccine. If you have evidence to the contrary then post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper.

    Like

  16. Lawrence
    December 27, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    @chris – sorry, keyboard on the iPhone is a bit tricky.

    Like

  17. December 27, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Ignoring insane troll who can’t comprehend (or read) the full papers it cites…..

    Like

  18. lilady
    December 27, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    Thanks for posting Pediatric Doc…unfortunately “Irrational Antivax” is the sockie of the Thingy troll, who has been banned already from a number of blogs.

    Insane troll is a disease promoting, germ phobic pathological liar who claims she worked as a nurse in a hospital.

    What job Thingy?

    What hospital Thingy?

    Like

  19. Narad
    December 27, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Thanks for posting Pediatric Doc…unfortunately “Irrational Antivax” is the sockie of the Thingy troll, who has been banned already from a number of blogs.

    Let’s not forget the deplorable and incompetent cowardice embodied by trying to skulk around with newly minted pseudonyms but the same old fractured English.

    Like

  20. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    Narad:

    Let’s not forget the deplorable and incompetent cowardice….same old fractured English

    I will grant a non-native speaker leeway in the use of English. But when it comes to names that are clearly noted at the top of the page as “Christine Vara”, calling her “Vera” is inexcusable (as in “why would Vera”). Sure it is one letter, but it illustrates the care this person puts into reading the article, which is none.

    Like

  21. December 28, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    @Narad – it can’t even get the terminology right – got to love insane troll calling from Htrae…..

    Like

  22. Lawrence
    December 28, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Thank you Christine.

    Like

  23. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    @Ped Doc – “Every expert panel currently recommends the Flu Vaccine, and they do it based on good scientific evidence…”

    Those “expert” panels you refer to have a bad track record with promoting the truth. What Laura Jane said is not all BS. There are plenty of studies citing the risks of the flu vaccine, and other studies showing the vaccine doesn’t offer a lot of protection. Just because you choose to pick and choose the studies you support, doesn’t mean there isn’t any validity to the others.
    I am very happy that you are not my kids Pediatrician. I don’t want my Doc to have such a bad attitude and closed mind and I like my Doc to be able to think for himself.

    Like

  24. December 28, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    @TJ – my Pediatrician is smart enough to understand the Science and understand that Anti-Vaccine cranks have no evidence or proof to support their “beliefs.” On the contrary, my Doctor cares enough to want to protect the children in her practice from easily preventable diseases – and she is also happy to answer any questions that we might have about vaccines.

    It isn’t even a question of picking and choosing – since anti-vaccine studies are uniformly bad science, horrible methods and questionable conclusions (such as trying link VAERS reports to Infant Mortality).

    In the end, if you are smart enough to understand the research, you’d easily see that vaccines are far safer than the diseases they prevent & the common anti-vaccine myths are just that, nothing but myth.

    Like

  25. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    I thought you were the expert on vaccines Lawrence?

    Like

  26. December 28, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @TJ – I certainly know enough to listen to the expert (including my kids’ Pediatrician) and keep up on the latest studies.

    If you click on the link in my name, you’ll find a great resource that debunks the standard anti-vaccine lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations.

    And back to the original question – feel free to explain the exact biological mechanism that would allow the flu vaccine to cause the flu.

    Like

  27. Vax Now
    December 28, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    This site has really gone down hill in the last few months. It’s a shame.

    Like

  28. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    TJ:

    There are plenty of studies citing the risks of the flu vaccine, and other studies showing the vaccine doesn’t offer a lot of protection.

    Provide the titles, journals and dates of those PubMed indexed studies. Since at least eight children have died from influenza this season, we would really like to see which study shows that kind of mortality from the vaccine. Laura Jane has failed to answer the question, perhaps you can provide the scientifically verifiable evidence for both yours and her claim.

    Like

  29. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    You think because somebody is an MD they are an expert on vaccines?

    Like

  30. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    Those studies have been posted here plenty of times Chris. Don’t play dumb.

    Like

  31. December 28, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    @VaxNow – yeah, the anti-vaccine trolls have been pretty “virulent” over the past few months….

    @TJ – certainly the immunologists who spend their lives studying vaccines are experts. My Pediatrician is smart enough to keep up on the latest research, as do I – which is certainly better than getting all of your information from places like AoA and VaxTruth that are blatantly anti-vaccine and full of lies, misinterpretations and misrepresentations.

    Like

  32. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    TJ, I have not seen one recent peer reviewed study that proves any influenza vaccine has caused eight deaths one year, so just post it again. It would also be beneficial for lurkers.

    Also, please read the comment policy:

    •vulgar or abusive language;
    •personal attacks of any kind;
    •unsupported accusations;
    •offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    •spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    •marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Like

  33. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    @Chris – maybe you should read the comment policy again? You seem to be the biggest abuser of the policy. Or do you think calling somebody an “Insane Troll” is OK?

    Like

  34. December 28, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    @TJ – yes, that particular troll is most likely mentally ill, given its long history of posting comments that have nothing to do with our particular reality….it exists in a world of its own & is impossible to have discussion with, given its inability to comprehend simple facts (and the particularly horrible opinions it holds regarding autistic children).

    Like

  35. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    @ Tobin Jones:

    “What Laura Jane said is not all BS. There are plenty of studies citing the risks of the flu vaccine, and other studies showing the vaccine doesn’t offer a lot of protection. Just because
    you choose to pick and choose the studies you support, doesn’t mean there isn’t any validity to the others.”

    Perhaps you would like to provide the information about Laura Jane’s claim that the seasonal influenza shot causes the flu, Tobin Jones?

    Show us all those studies that you claim cite the risks of the flu vaccine and your claim that the flu vaccine doesn’t offer a lot of protection. Here’s a site for the CDC to evaluate each seasonal flu’s effectiveness. Make certain that you don’t confuse effectiveness with efficacy.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm

    Still waiting for any citation from you on a vaccine topic to back up your fact-less and citation-less statements.

    Like

  36. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Irrational Antivax is back again. Pathetic, that Thingy resorts to tricks to get past the ban hammer.

    What job Thingy?

    What hospital Thingy?

    Like

  37. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Looks to me like Lawrence and lilday also have no trouble breaking the comment policy rules. Why even have the rules?

    Like

  38. December 28, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    @TJ – you’ve made a lot of claims, but have provided no evidence to back them up. Please provide some evidence that the expert immunologists that advise on the current vaccine schedule have had problems with the “truth.”

    Otherwise, you are just parroting the typical anti-vaccine lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations.

    Like

  39. December 28, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Still ignoring ban-avoiding insane troll (and sockies).

    Like

  40. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Here is a partial list from the last few months of cases that were awarded damages by the US Government via the “Vaccine Court” for the FLU VACCINE:

    Many of these decisions include the stipulation that the Respondent (the government)denies injury/death was caused-in-fact by vaccination, nonetheless, the parties agreed informally to resolve this matter …”

    Stipulation; trivalent influenza vaccine ; Guillain-Barre Syndrome DARRYL ALDRICH, August 31, 2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine ; GBS RAY SIZEMORE, August 27, 2012

    Stipulation; Influenza ; Neuropathy; Myelopathy H.G. 08/27/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine; Acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis PAMELA A. GOUDGE, as Parent and Legal Representative of her Minor Daughter, MEGAN ELIZABETH GOUDGE 08/17/2012

    Decision by Stipulation; Influenza Vaccine ; Encephalopathy, ADEM, Brain Lesions LEE HAMES 08/16/2012

    Decision by Stipulation; Influenza Vaccine ; Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS); CIDPDEBORAH E. BRADLEY 08/16/2012Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Miller Fisher Variant of GBS; Flu Vaccine.TERRIE EAST 08/01/2012

    Joint Stipulation on Damages; Trivalent Influenza (?Flu?) Vaccine ; Guillain-Barré Syndrome (?GBS?).DESSA STABOLESKI 07/31/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine ; Acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis Stipulation; Trivalent influenza vaccine, flu; Guillain-Barré Syndrome, GBS THERESA LYNCH 07/24/2012

    Influenza vaccine , flu; Guillain-Barré Syndrome, GBS; Stipulation RICHARD D. HUMMEL 07/24/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine ; Encephalomyeloneuropathy LAURA LARUE 07/12/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine ; Allergic Reaction; Progressive URI DWIGHT MUNGER 07/12/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine; generalized itching. PATRICIA MORROW 07/11/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza; CIDP JAMES JIM KINDELL 07/09/2012

    Stipulation; influenza vaccine ; Guillain-Barre syndrome. MONA MENKING 07/09/2012

    Stipulation; influenza vaccine; Guillain-Barre Syndrome DANIEL IRWIN 07/06/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; transverse myelitis (TM) ARTHUR W. ASKEW 06/29/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine, flu ; Ventricular fibrillation and cardiac arrest PAUL L. CLEARY 06/28/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) THOMAS KIEF 06/28/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; neurological abnormalities; transverse myelitis (TM) LISA BURRELL 06/28/2012

    Stipulation; influenza vaccine ; transverse myelitis CAROL LYNNE GOERNER 06/25/2012

    Stipulation; trivalent influenza vaccine; acute hearing loss; vertigo. JOSEPH MAUS 06/22/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine , flu; Transverse myelitis, TM RICHARD PETRAGLIA 06/01/2012

    Ruling on the record; trivalent (flu) vaccine ; acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (?ADEM?) JESSICA MURA (healthy 21-year old Emergency Medical Technician)05/30/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine, flu; Rhomboencephalitis; Dysautonomia; Attorney fees and costs JAY D. PRIEFERT 05/18/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; GBS; Death Estate of DRAGO POTOCIC, 05/15/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza ; GBS PAMELA KWIATKOWSKI 05/15/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; GBS; Death Estate of DEBORA KAY STEELEY, 05/08/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza; GBS GARY C. STEBNITZ 05/01/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza; GBS CRYSTAL L. RHODES 04/26/2012

    Stipulation; CIDP; influenza DENIS LOUIS 04/18/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine ; GBS; Attorneys? Fees & Costs Decision Based on Stipulation MARY L. JONES 04/18/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) ELIZABETH JASNOSZ 04/16/2012

    Decision on the Record; Urticarial Vasculitis; Influenza AUDREY MCELROY 04/13/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine, flu; Guillain-Barré Syndrome, GBS; Attorney fees and costs minor child, JUAN SANCHEZ 3/13/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine; syncope; allergic reaction; orthostatic hypotensionJESSICA JONES 03/12/2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS); attorneys’ fees and costs; award in the amount to which respondent does not object MERRELL S. McILWAIN 03/08/2012

    Stipulation; influenza vaccine; Guillain Barre Syndrome MOSCA FLINT 03/02/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; ADEM; Death ; Attorneys? Fees & Costs Decision Based on Stipulation Estate of, SEAN WEISSE 02/29/2012

    Stipulation; Guillain-Barré Syndrome, GBS; Influenza vaccine, flu; Tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis, Tdap MEGAN BAUER 02/29/2012

    Proffer; Influenza vaccine, flu; Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, ADEM THURMAN DANIELS 02/16/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine ; GBS DAVID JOSEPH POLCIK 02/02/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza (flu) vaccine ; Guillian-Barre Syndrome (GBS) DAN SMITH 02/02/2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; Leukocytoclastic Vasculitis; Urticaria Parents and Natural Guardians of minor DENNIS J. FLANAGAN 01/30/2012

    Stipulation; Influenza vaccine, flu; Guillain-Barré Syndrome, GBS DOMINGO MARTINEZ 01/30/2012

    Decision by stipulation; Influenza Vaccine ; Guillain Barre Syndrome JOHN HICKMAN, January 27, 2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; GB TAMY T. NGUYEN January 27, 2012Decision by stipulation; Influenza Vaccine ; Guillain Barre Syndrome CHRISTOPHER COALE, January 24, 2012Flu vaccine; cytokine storm; death of 82-year-old man six days after vaccination; sepsis/systemic inflammatory response; Zatuchni; pain and suffering of decedent pre-filing of petition Estate of EDGAR BRAGG, January 18, 2012

    Decision by Stipulation; Influenza, Tdap and MMR; Shoulder Pain; Numbness and Dysfunction WALTER GROSH, January 17, 2012

    Decision by Stipulation; Influenza, Tdap and Menningococcal Vaccines; Transverse Myelitis Peter Cieszewski . January 13, 2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine; Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS); death Estate of CHARLES JAMES BUSALACCHI, January 10, 2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV); Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS FRUTO SOTO, January 10, 2012

    Stipulation; influenza (flu) vaccine ; right deltoid cellulitis; serum sickness; connective tissue disorder; rheumatoid arthritis; Sjogren’s syndrome; autoimmune hepatitis; fibromyalgia KARON MERRILL January 10, 2012

    Stipulation; Influenza; GBS death Estate of GUADALUPE G. GONZALEZ, January 9, 2012

    Damages Decision Based on Stipulation; Flu Vaccine; GBS; Attorney?s Fees and Costs Decision Based on Stipulation GUILLERMINA RAMIREZ, January 5, 2012

    Stipulation; influenza vaccine; Guillain-Barre Syndrome death Estate of REX KIMBELL January 5, 2012

    Flu Vaccine ; Guillain-Barre-Syndrome (GBS);Stipulation of damages; Award and attorney’s fees MARGARET CLANT January 5, 2012)

    Like

  41. Tobin Jones
  42. December 28, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    @TJ – this is exactly what the Vaccine Court was set up to take care of. Since there is a recognition that certain adverse events “may” be related to the vaccine, compensation is paid without the need to prove that the event was “definitely” linked to the vaccine. It reduces the burden of proof (to “possibly-related” as opposed to “probably-related”) and eliminates the adversarial process of Civil Court.

    Anti-vaccine groups can’t have it both ways – either the Vaccine Court doesn’t work & doesn’t pay out claims (btw, your list above disproves that) or it does work & pays out for legitimate claims.

    So, which is it TJ?

    Like

  43. December 28, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    @TJ – and if there is another 1918-like Pandemic & the CDC and World Health Organizations under-react, what would your response be? They are “damned if the do, damned if they don’t” since they get blasted when they do too much to stop a Pandemic & certainly would get crucified if they did too little……

    Like

  44. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    OK, so as long as we pay out funds to the injured it’s OK? Really?

    I am done giving the benefit of doubt to these agencies. You shouldn’t trust any of them.

    Like

  45. December 28, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    @TJ – you’d just don’t get it, do you? No one here has ever said that vaccine reactions don’t exist or that a very small number of them can be severe…..but, vaccines are still hugely more safe than the diseases they prevent & with vaccines, we’ve been able to finally reduce the incidence of typical childhood diseases by anywhere from 95 – 100%, which means that tens of thousands of children don’t have to suffer the very real and very serious potential side-effects of those diseases – including blindness, deafness, sterility, secondary infections, encephalitis, congenital birth defects, and others.

    The fact that Vaccine Court exists and works, with the constant vaccine safety surveillance programs in place through the CDC (and the FDA approval and safety regulations) means that the Vaccine Program is one of the most heavily regulated and therefore safe, medical programs that exists today.

    If you stop getting all of your information through the typical anti-vaccine websites, you’d be able to objectively review the research that is out there & see through the lies, misinformation and misrepresentations that the anti-vaccine crowd has been pitching….

    Like

  46. December 28, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    @TJ – during the last major Rubella Outbreak in the 1960’s, there were over 10,000 fetal and child deaths related to congenital birth defects – how exactly would you avoid that from happening again, without the Rubella Vaccine?

    Like

  47. December 28, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    @TJ – the Vaccine Court was originally proposed & supported by Barbara Lee Fisher, a notorious anti-vaccine activist. She only turned against the Court when it refused to accept the autism-vaccine link….instead, she would have legitimate claimants (like those above) be forced to sue in Civil Court and participate in a much more burdensome and adversarial process, which could cost those families hundreds of thousands of dollars, force them to wait years, and face the full force of the pharmaceutical industry arrayed against them…..

    Somehow, I think the Vaccine Court is the much better side of that particular deal…..

    At the end of the day, all of the research and actual, real science shows that vaccines are safe, effective, and have saved the lives of countless individuals worldwide. Diseases such as measles, mumps, and rubella could be eradicated (since they have no non-human hosts) if only anti-vaccine cranks would stop spreading the same old tired lies and misinformation – you do know what happens when we eradicate a disease, right? It means we can stop giving the vaccine – so in a way, you’re getting in your own way by propagating the lies and myths….

    Like

  48. December 28, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    @TJ – plenty of research has been done by independent groups, educational institutions, researchers in other countries, etc. that all show that the current crop of vaccines are both safe and effective – if you believe that a worldwide conspiracy could possibly exist, that could suppress information among millions, if not tens of millions of people involved in health care around the world, I’ve got a bridge in NY that is for sale, cheap.

    Like

  49. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Ban defying Thingy and her sockie Irrational Antivax cherry picked an MMWR article about LAIV not the seasonal flu shot that Laura Jane *claimed* could transmit the flu virus. The *study* was NOT published in any medical journal…it was a “Poster Presentation”.

    What job Thingy?

    What hospital Thingy?

    Like

  50. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Tobin Jones (who has never posted on any other article but this one, yet claims to have answered my question before… yet another sock puppet):

    OK, so as long as we pay out funds to the injured it’s OK? Really?

    So who pays out to the parents of the eight children who had died from influenza this year? Ms. Vara posted the CDC FluView weekly report in the article, so you must have seen it. Oh, look it has been updated, there are now sixteen pediatric deaths.

    Also this what I asked for: “Provide the titles, journals and dates of those PubMed indexed studies. Since at least eight children have died from influenza this season, we would really like to see which study shows that kind of mortality from the vaccine. ”

    Now there is quite a bit of difference between scientific and legal evidence, which is pretty much spelled with the repeat of the word “stipulation” in your “cites.” So please, answer the question with verifiable scientific evidence. And even though the number of kids who have died from influenza has doubled, I just let get by with eight influenza vaccine deaths in a year.

    Also, please link to the comment where I ever typed in the words “insane troll.” I usually just say she lives on Htrae because she says things are are contrary to reality, like this:

    Why should I let the child walk on the dirt when there is a dry concrete pavement next to it? A toddler would readily know which is the safe path to take even without the knowledge of C. tetani, but I am just fascinated how parents are offering very poor choices (or lack thereof).

    I often ignore her insults to me. I do not recall throwing an insult at you like “Don’t play dumb.”, but I am suspicious that you are someone who is using yet another username. Plus that you are making claims but failing to back them up as requested.

    Like

  51. Rational Antivaxx
    December 28, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    John Salamone is a more notorious [safe] vaccine activist than Barbara Loe Fisher.

    Like

  52. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    How “odd” that TJ picked those particular cases…they are the exact cases on the list of Dr. Sherry Tenpenny, D.O. who is “well-known” to the Shot of Prevention regular posters. She’s as anti-vaccine as they come.

    Like

  53. December 28, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    @lilady – I hadn’t noticed that, but you are correct…..when they have to resort to sock puppets, you already know the information they are going to trot out is either a lie, misinformation or a misrepresentation….

    Like

  54. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    @ Chris: I suggest you just ignore TJ’s insults…after all he defends Thingy and her sockies and uses Sherry Tenpenny’s list of “influenza injuries”.

    Like

  55. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    All I want is for TJ to answer my question. Real children are dying from influenza, and he/she seems to think that is minor compared to the few unverified injuries from the vaccine. I am pretty sure if any influenza vaccine had caused eight deaths it would be on the front cover of most mainstream news organization. So why have I not heard of these issues that would make the vaccine more dangerous than the disease?

    Like

  56. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Eight influenza-associated pediatric deaths were reported?

    You must now post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper showing these deaths were indeed caused by influenza.

    You also said – “Real children are dying from influenza, and he/she seems to think that is minor compared to the few unverified injuries from the vaccine.”

    You think thousands are a few? You call thousands minor? You down-play thousands of injuries as if they don’t even matter. Yu have no respect for life Chris.

    I never said I posted the studies Chris….I said they had been posted here many times. Always twisting words aren’t you?

    You think saying, “don’t play dumb” is insulting you? You are much weaker than I once thought.

    @lilady – Please, citation that the “tenpenny” list as you call it, is made up lies.

    Like

  57. December 28, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    @TJ – please post your “citations” about thousands of flu-vaccine related injuries…..of course, tens of thousands of people do die of the flu every year, but I guess that’s a cost of doing business for you TJ, right?

    Like

  58. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    No Lawrence you think the cost of doing business makes it OK to injure thousands of people every year with vaccines.

    Like

  59. Lawrence
    December 28, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    @TJ – it is called evidence, care to provide any for your assertions?

    Like

  60. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    In the so called “tenpenny” list there were 7 deaths just in the last few months from the flu vaccine. Here’s one example. So sad that nobody cares about this person who died….look a $120K pay out, that makes it all better.

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/MILLMAN.STEELEY050812.pdf

    Flu vaccine injuries aren’t rare, they are common place.

    Like

  61. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Where is the evidence that Vara’s child has had flu?

    Vaccinators are the most manipulative creatures on Earth.

    Like

  62. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Here’s one of the “stipulations” from the TJ/Tenpenny list…

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/MORAN.MORROW071112.pdf

    The “payoff” for six months of itching ($35,000), for a *claim* that never went to trial and before plaintiff and her “expert witnesses” testified.

    Like

  63. December 28, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    @TJ – once again, you fail to understand how the Vaccine Court operates. I see no evidence in that ruling you cite, other than the plaintiff making a claim & being compensated based on “the may be connected” standard of evidence used, as opposed to having to provide actual proof (as would be necessary in civil court).

    Again, please provide your evidence that vaccines injure “thousands” of people every year.

    Because we do know, for a fact, that vaccine preventable diseases killed and seriously injured tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands (or millions – if you include smallpox & the 1918 Pandemic) in their heyday.

    Please show us your evidence that vaccines have anywhere near (within a magnitude) the side effects of measles, mumps, rubella or polio (not to mention pneumonia or HepB)?

    Because we also know, for a fact, that diseases like Rubella (which you seem to overlook – since I mentioned it above) which, in the last major outbreak, killed over 10,000 fetal / children in the 1960’s.

    Yet somehow you think this is “not as bad?”

    Like

  64. December 28, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    @lilady – the sockpuppets are strong with insane troll.

    Like

  65. December 28, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    @TJ – even in the Cochrane Report, the flu vaccine was listed as the safest vaccine on the market.

    Like

  66. Shannon
    December 28, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    ‎”TIV did not provide any protection against hospitalization in pediatric subjects, especially children with asthma. On the contrary, we found a threefold increased risk of hospitalization in subjects who did get the TIV vaccine.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22525386

    Like

  67. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Chris,

    Did your toddler ever return to you for safety and solace? I wonder why you find that so unrealistic?

    Like

  68. alice
    December 28, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    LOL…enjoy your future cancer 🙂 I’ll take the flu over cancer any day…

    Like

  69. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Do you know how severe the itching was lilady? 6 months of itching may me miserable, I don’t know. So what is your point? Not all vaccine injuries should be compensated for? Or that there are quacks trying to cash in on this? Sure possibly, but how about all of the injuries that never make it to vaccine court or people who don’t know they’ve been injured by a vaccine because their Doc told them it was impossible?

    Like

  70. Lawrence
    December 28, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    @shannon – that’s the abstract. Care to give us the full paper, including the conclusions?

    Like

  71. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Lawrence,

    Did it ever come to your senses that vaccines are biological agents and are derived from pathogens? Thank you.

    Like

  72. December 28, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @alice – citations please?

    @TJ – again, please cite actual evidence, not conjecture. We have a very good handle on those reactions that are actually linked to vaccination – the vast majority of them are minor (like redness at the injection site, soreness or slight fever) and a very small and very rare number can be serious – which is why the Vaccine Court is there & why there is even a table – publicly available, which shows which adverse events are recognized and compensated (without question).

    You make a lot of claims TJ, but I’m seeing a distinct lack of evidence or proof – especially in light of the very well known serious side-effects of the diseases that vaccines prevent.

    Please enlighten us as to your plan to prevent the incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases – would love to see how you plan on stopping the spread of disease without vaccines.

    Like

  73. December 28, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    @insane troll – please to be enjoying your soon to be bannage….

    Like

  74. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    @ Chris: The total pediatric deaths reported by hospitals and following influenza death case surveillance for the 2012-2013 seasonal influenza season, to date, is 16…not eight:

    http://gis.cdc.gov/GRASP/Fluview/PedFluDeath.html

    See also the number of pediatric deaths that are confirmed by laboratory testing, hospital reporting and case surveillance for the previous three influenza season (including the huge numbers of pediatric deaths caused by the H1N1 virus during the 2009-2010 (282), and 2010-2011 seasonal influenza seasons (122).

    TJ states “… but how about all of the injuries that never make it to vaccine court or people who don’t know they’ve been injured by a vaccine because their Doc told them it was impossible?…”

    Oh they definitely “make it to Vaccine Court”…because of that Court’s extraordinarily lower burden of proof, compared to civil court actions for product injuries…and because of attorneys’ “reluctance” to even taken on bogus claims. Vaccine Court attorneys have a gold mine there…the collect legal fees and expenses from the Vaccine Court…even for the many “cases” that are tossed where plaintiffs cannot meet the vastly lower burden of proof that exists in state civil courts.

    BTW TJ, why are you so supportive of Thingy and her sockies? She is a cyberstalker, she tells parents who have developmentally children that their children are “vaccine injured”, she is clueless about immunology and epidemiology, she *claims* she is a nurse who worked in hospital, she’s germ phobic and a disease promoter and despises little kids.

    Like

  75. December 28, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    People that get vaccinated are stupid. Yep, I’m the worst kind of anti-vaccine troll. I’m sick and tired of stupid people that hurt their children by getting these things injected into their bodies http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf Seriously, do some research. Just compare each ingredient in each vaccine to its MSDS and you will know that you should never put these substances in your bodies.

    Of course, most of you are blind, trusting, think the government and big pharmaceutical companies would never do anything not in your best interest. All the while paying doctors, who are dependent upon revenue received from this farce, to inject their children.

    Wake up, get a clue. And I don’t hid behind cutesy names. I post under my real FB profile.

    Any of you actually read the peer reviewed research, then correlate the outcomes to the advertisers and funders? Follow the money. The non-vaxxed are HEALTHIER than their vaxxed counterparts.

    Like

  76. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    I don’t know who Thingy is but I’m sure he/she doesn’t go by the name Thingy. But I forgot, you don’t have to follow the rules here lilady.

    Like

  77. Lawrence
    December 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    @lucy – at least you are honest. You are the worst kind of anti-vax troll.

    As far as to the rest of your assertions, evidence please?

    Like

  78. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    @ Lucy Brenton: Try reading some of the other chapters from the CDC Pink Book, including the prevalence of all the VPDs before preventive vaccines became available to prevent them…and the prevalence of those same VPDs after vaccines became available. Try also to look at the serious, sometimes deadly, consequences of not providing those vaccines to children.

    “Seriously, do some research. Just compare each ingredient in each vaccine to its MSDS and you will know that you should never put these substances in your bodies.”

    Link to the MSDS for each vaccine preservative, culture media, adjuvant and excipient Lucy.

    I follow “the money” Lucy and it leads to the doors of the quack anti-vaccine “practitioners” and other luminaries of the anti-vaccine community…who appeal to gullible credulous parents and other ignorant-in-basic-science individuals. Which type are you?

    Like

  79. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    Thingy originally posted her crazy rants under Th1Th2. She’s been banned from many blogs because of her harassing behaviors.

    You’ve been here long enough TJ…either posting under “Tobin Jones” or another ‘nym to see how insane cyberstalking Troll lies and posts vicious posts at other posters…yet you still defend the odious troll and her sockies. Why?

    Like

  80. December 28, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Yeah, those anti-vaccine quacks are just rolling in the dough. I bet they make billions of dollars telling people NOT to vax. You get so rich selling vitamin C supplements. Give me a break.

    Here is just one company, Merck, just one vaccine, Gardasil, as of 10/31/11 http://www.pharmatimes.com/article/11-10-31/Merck_profits_soar_as_Januvia_Gardasil_sales_impress.aspx

    Gardasil sales in this article are reportedly up 41% to 445 MILLION.

    This, of course, is with a product that poses ZERO LIABILITY for the manufacturer. Why? At least in the United States, if you or a loved one is injured or killed by a vaccine, you are not even allowed to sue the manufacturer. Pharma companies have so much money and power they successfully bribed and lobbied Congress in the US to remove ALL liability from them. The Supreme Court has even ruled that when they know how to make a safer product, they are NOT required to!

    Just look around at all the sick children. Vaccine damaged children. 1 in 88 are autistic, 1 in 54 of these are boys. It is truly a holocaust.

    Now multiply vaccine sales by manufacturer, number of doses, etc… and you come up with an astronomical number in the tens of billions of dollars in sales. What do they care about a few kids who suffer? Of course, I make nothing if people don’t vaccinate. I don’t have any vitamins or pills or potions to sell.

    Pediatricians? Yeah, they’ve got something to sell. “Well Baby Visits” and vaccines. Every time you show up and get your kids a shot, they bill you. You don’t show, they don’t get paid. They have a profit motive.

    Like

  81. December 28, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Here’s a link to just the top ten sellers of vaccines, not a list of ALL vaccine manufacturers:

    http://www.fiercevaccines.com/special-reports/top-10-selling-flu-vaccines-2012

    2.546,000,000 That’s over 2.5 BILLION coming in on vaccines. With ZERO LIABILITY.

    You’re just a dollar sign to them.

    Like

  82. December 28, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    @Lucy – so much fail, so little time…..first of all, how much money is spent on R&D? For every one drug that actually makes it through the various regulatory testing processes, perhaps hundreds do not – meaning that drug companies can potentially lose hundreds of millions of dollars for all of the treatments that never make to market….if regulations were as lax as you say, why even bother with testing? Why aren’t more drugs green-lighted, instead of dropped either before or during the various trials?

    As for liability – drug companies can be sued in State Court, no problem. The Vaccine Court, which exists on the Federal side of things, offers a much lower burden of proof & all compensation is paid for by the drug manufacturers.

    Since vaccines prevent disease – what do you think is more profitable? Treating people for the flu, measles, mumps, rubella, etc, or preventing those diseases from ever happening?

    Even the whole ingredient thing is a red herring – water is poisonous at high enough dose & the body manufacturers more formaldehyde on its own daily as part of the natural metabolic process than is contained in all pediatric vaccines combined.

    The link in my name refutes the major anti-vaccine talking points – I also know plenty of free clinics that provide no-cost vaccines to the poor, plus companies that provide free flu vaccines to their employees – not exactly racking in the dough there.

    I would bet that, without vaccines, drug companies would be rolling in dough treating the very serious side-effects of vaccine preventable diseases & we’d be building a large number of iron lung wings of hospitals, not to mention schools for the blind and deaf….oh, but wait, we don’t need them anymore – because of vaccines.

    So much fail Lucy, so much fail…..

    Like

  83. December 28, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    @Lucy – how much does it cost to treat a single case of Cervical Cancer? Multiple that times the tens of thousands of women in the US who are diagnosed…….if you can prevent any number of them, doesn’t that make both financial and moral sense?

    Like

  84. Nate
    December 28, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Here is the abstract to a recent study showing that flu vaccines given to pregnant women cause fetal death: http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/0960327112455067.abstract

    Like

  85. December 28, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    @Nate – and here is a take-down of that junk science study:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/12/26/some-post-holiday-antivaccine-science/

    VAERS, for obvious reasons, is not a reliable database for this type of research.

    Like

  86. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    That’s the infamous VAERS dumpster-diving Goldman “Study”…that’s not a study at all. Goldman is not a scientist, but he is a joke in the science community.

    Nate…why do you think trolling in the VAERS database for reports that confirm Goldman’s anti-vaccine opinions about vaccines is a “study”?

    Like

  87. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    lilady :
    @ Chris: The total pediatric deaths reported by hospitals and following influenza death case surveillance for the 2012-2013 seasonal influenza season, to date, is 16…not eight:

    I know, I said that earlier, and even provided the link for TJ, who seems not know how to click on it. Though I did not force TJ to find a citation that the influenza vaccine kills sixteen per year, just eight. I did go through several of the court cases he/she listed, and let us just say the facts are very fuzzy. Some may be real, others may be the illness already starting before the vaccine, and others may have been just the background rate of GBS. Also they occurred during several different years.

    TJ:

    You think thousands are a few? You call thousands minor? You down-play thousands of injuries as if they don’t even matter. Yu have no respect for life Chris.

    Thousand of what? Deaths or injury? You have yet to provide the scientific evidence for that, and I only mentioned the pediatric deaths (which are typically laboratory confirmed) because the adult deaths are noted as a percentage. If you look at the link I used you will see there are over 7000 cases of influenza, with over 1500 hospitalizations with confirmed influenza. I don’t think I am the one who has not respect for life. You are not answering my question, and are pontificating some injuries when there are people being hospitalized and dying.

    Lucy Brenton:

    People that get vaccinated are stupid.

    Why do you think insults are a valid form of evidence? You need to read the comments policy, it prohibits insults. Please stay on topic (Gardisil does not prevent influenza) and avoid conspiracy theories. Just provide us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the influenza vaccine causes more death and injury than influenza in a year. And so far we know sixteen kids have died, so the study must show at least that level of mortality from the vaccine. Do you have that data?

    Like

  88. December 28, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    Hahaha, love it when people bring up “iron lungs.” They don’t exist anymore, because the technology got better. Perhaps you’ve been to an ICU. That’s where you’ll find the modern day equivalent, keeping people alive who have vaccine induced Guillain Barre.

    Like

  89. December 28, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    @Chris – after perusing Lucy’s FaceBook page, it is fairly obvious where she gets here “facts,” since Mercola & Natural News are highlighted fairly prominently.

    Like

  90. lilady
    December 28, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Lawrence, Lucy brags that she has nine children…and she has not vaccinated any of them.

    She has various business ventures…none of them remotely connected to medical science.

    Why doesn’t Lucy answer my question about ponying up the MSDS(s) to prove that ingredients in vaccine are “toxic”?

    Like

  91. December 28, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    @Lucy – yeah, advancements in medical science, including vaccines. And I still see no evidence on your side of the fence either.

    Care to tell us how you would prevent the spread of vaccine-preventable diseases? And please note that a majority of them are airborne, so please don’t try to fall back on the whole hygiene canard……

    Also, please care to explain how you would prevent congenital birth defects from rubella? Since at least 10,000 babies / children died during the last major outbreak in the 1960’s….

    Like

  92. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Lawrence…too bad the stuff they serve up to prevent cervical cancer actually causes cancer or injures, so this doesn’t bode well with your theory.

    Like

  93. December 28, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    @Lucy – care to also point to your citations that GB is higher than background rates in vaccinated populations?

    As to the vax vs. unvax health status – various population studies have thoroughly refuted that unvaxed children are healthier than vaxed – in fact, the main difference is that unvaxed get vaccine preventable diseases (and the resulting side-effects) at a much higher rate….so much for being “healthier.”

    Like

  94. December 28, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    @TJ – once again, an assertion without evidence…..

    Like

  95. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    @Chris – fuzz? Just like they count people who die from pneumonia as a “flu” death. That’s really fuzzy!!

    Like

  96. Tobin Jones
    December 28, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    All you have to do is watch the news Lawrence.

    Like

  97. leon
    December 28, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    you make me sick! i haven’t had the flu shot in 6 years and I’m still here. I do get a cold but mild symptoms. at least I’m not pumping unnecessary chemicals and viruses into my body. wake up or stop peddling for big pharma!

    Like

  98. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Ms. Brenton:

    You’re just a dollar sign to them.

    I have a very simple question for you: Please open this pdf document, go to page 30 and look at the table. What number is to the left of the word “Vaccines”, and what does it mean?

    Ms. Brenton:

    That’s where you’ll find the modern day equivalent, keeping people alive who have vaccine induced Guillain Barre.

    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show that vaccines cause a greater amount of GBS than the background rate. GBS is caused by several different viral infections, including influenza, so you need to provide evidence for your statement.

    Some examples:
    Eur J Neurol. 2012 Sep;19(9):1239-44. doi: 10.1111/j.1468-1331.2012.03730.x. Epub 2012 Apr 23.
    Increased incidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome after surgery

    Pediatr Int. 2012 Jun;54(3):325-30. doi: 10.1111/j.1442-200X.2012.03568.x. Epub 2012 Apr 9.
    Neurologic adverse events following influenza A (H1N1) vaccinations in children.

    Clin Infect Dis. 2012 Mar;54(6):800-4. doi: 10.1093/cid/cir960. Epub 2012 Jan 19.
    Recurrent Guillain-Barre syndrome following vaccination.

    Like

  99. December 28, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    @TJ – what, no actual Science?

    Again, more conjecture and supposition – nothing that equates to actual evidence.

    @leon – wonderful post, you bring an interesting perspective to this conversation…..not.

    Like

  100. Nate
    December 28, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    The study on fetal death was peer-reviewed before it was accepted for publication. VAERS is used by the CDC and other researchers for analyzing trends. Some of its limitations are well known but do not override its usefulness as a valuable tool for revealing legitimate trends. Orac, the author of science blogs, is a well-known lackey for the pharmaceutical industry. I have read many of his posts and find them to be dishonest and lacking in scientific integrity.

    Like

  101. December 28, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    @Nate – for obvious reasons again, VAERS is not the database for this type of research, not to mention that Mercola got involved & publicized calls for VAERS entries in the same timeframe that was studied (selection-bias much?).

    Since the results of VAERS follow-ups are not published, there is no way to determine, from data-mining VAERS as-is, if the entries are valid to begin with. That is one serious limitation.

    I find someone who relies on this type of research, which is both sloppy and dishonest, knocking an actual scientist and research for “dishonesty and lacking in scientific integrity” to be laughable.

    Like

  102. December 28, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    Nate – oops, wrong take-down of that “researcher’s” bad science:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/11/28/h1n1-vaccine-and-miscarriages-more-antivaccine-fear-mongering-about-flu-vaccines/

    And I quote:

    “There are about 4.2 million births a year in the US. About 15-20% of pregnancies result in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage or stillbirth). Even if we take the lower number, that’s 700,000 spontaneous abortions per year, or 58,000 per month. This means that over the two months of the vaccine program in 2009-2010, 116,000 women in the US would have had a spontaneous abortion. Half of them were vaccinated. Let’s further say that half of those vaccinated had their miscarriage or stillbirth after they were vaccinated – this leaves us with about 29 thousand woman who had spontaneous abortions following getting the H1N1 vaccine last season – just as the background rate.

    So King’s estimates, based upon wild extrapolation from a few hundred reported cases, is still short of the background rate by an order of magnitude. ”

    Not to mention claims that the rate jumped by 4,250% – which would give you more miscarriages than there were actual pregnancies – plus not showing a rate that maintained during the next year (since the H1N1 Vaccine was combined with the normal vaccine).

    Again, junk science at its worst…..

    Like

  103. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    It was not a highly rated journal, and there are still many things wrong with it. Mr. Goldman has an agenda, and his PhD is in computer science from a non-accredited school, so he is no expert. Call us when he gets published in Nature, Science, Vaccine, Lancet, Pediatrics, JAMA or NEJM.

    leon: “wake up or stop peddling for big pharma!”
    Nate: “is a well-known lackey for the pharmaceutical industry.”

    Ah, yes, the old, tired and boring Pharma Shill Gambit. Guys, do something new and different! Use actual data, and make it is good data. Or at least answer my question to Ms. Brenton on what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines” on the table of page 30 of the document I linked to above.

    Like

  104. December 28, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    @TJ – I do actual research, I don’t rely on the “News” to make informed medical decisions for either myself or my family. “Natural News” AoA or the various anti-vax websites aren’t legitimate places for research either……if you can’t provide the proof or evidence, then you have nothing to add to this discussion.

    Like

  105. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    Chris,

    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show that vaccines cause a greater amount of GBS than the background rate. GBS is caused by several different viral infections, including influenza, so you need to provide evidence for your statement.

    Hope this will enlighten you.

    Preliminary results: surveillance for Guillain-Barré syndrome after receipt of influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccine—United States, 2009–2010. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2010;59(21):657–661.

    To monitor influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccine safety, several federal surveillance systems, including CDC’s Emerging Infections Program (EIP), are being used. In October 2009, EIP began active surveillance to assess the risk for GBS after 2009 H1N1 vaccination. Preliminary results from an analysis in EIP comparing GBS patients hospitalized through March 31, 2010, who did and did not receive 2009 H1N1 vaccination showed an estimated age-adjusted rate ratio of 1.77 (GBS incidence of 1.92 per 100,000 person-years among vaccinated persons and 1.21 per 100,000 person-years among unvaccinated persons).

    Like

  106. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    Hippo, going from 1.21 to 1.92 per 100000 person years is really not much, and it may be that there are demographic differences between the vaccinated and unvaccinated (like access to medical care). Plus my papers are more recent. Science moves on and even two years is a long time.

    Like

  107. December 28, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    @Chris – it pays to just ignore insane troll sock puppet…..

    Like

  108. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    I guess that is Thingy, but I did think it was worthwhile that study has been superseded due to changes in the vaccine components.

    Like

  109. December 28, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    @Chris – always good to see good science – thanks.

    Like

  110. Nate
    December 28, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    @ Chris You have clearly tipped your hand. Goldman has been published in Vaccine several times, and in JAMA. He certainly is an expert computer scientist. In fact, he was a CDC database analyst for 7 years. He quit the CDC when they refused to publish ALL of their significant findings. (The CDC refused to publish anything that showed vaccines in a poor light.) Regarding Orac, he is a well-known pharma shill and does have an agenda.

    Regarding your concerns about “highly rated” journals vs. the others, is it your position that every study published in your list of “highly rated” journals is a valid study? Conversely, do you think that all of the studies in the other journals are poorly constructed or otherwise unacceptable? Has Dr. Goldman’s status as a researcher just been elevated in your mind now that you know he’s been published in top-tier journals? Or is he still a quack in your mind because he happened to publish something — anything — showing vaccines in a poor light?

    Like

  111. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    Chris,

    Plus my papers are more recent. Science moves on and even two years is a long time.

    I have read one of your papers you cited and found out that there are more recent NAE that are attributed to influenza vaccine other than GBS. I guess that’s what you should call science moving forward.

    Like

  112. December 28, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    @Nate – so how about a look at Goldman’s actual Science, which certainly doesn’t hold up to any sort of scrutiny…how about slinking back to AoA where they eat that sort of pseudo-science up with a spoon.

    I reiterate:

    “There are about 4.2 million births a year in the US. About 15-20% of pregnancies result in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage or stillbirth). Even if we take the lower number, that’s 700,000 spontaneous abortions per year, or 58,000 per month. This means that over the two months of the vaccine program in 2009-2010, 116,000 women in the US would have had a spontaneous abortion. Half of them were vaccinated. Let’s further say that half of those vaccinated had their miscarriage or stillbirth after they were vaccinated – this leaves us with about 29 thousand woman who had spontaneous abortions following getting the H1N1 vaccine last season – just as the background rate.

    So King’s estimates, based upon wild extrapolation from a few hundred reported cases, is still short of the background rate by an order of magnitude. ”

    Not to mention that we don’t see the same rate of VAERS reports after the studied period, even though the same vaccine strain is included in subsequent shots…….thoughts Nate?

    Like

  113. Chris
    December 28, 2012 at 10:51 pm

    Nate:

    Goldman has been published in Vaccine several times, and in JAMA.

    Oh, deer, you are right:

    Vaccine. 2012 Jun 1. [Epub ahead of print]
    Review of the United States universal varicella vaccination program: Herpes zoster incidence rates, cost-effectiveness, and vaccine efficacy based primarily on the Antelope Valley Varicella Active Surveillance Project data.

    JAMA. 2002 Feb 6;287(5):606-11.
    Varicella disease after introduction of varicella vaccine in the United States, 1995-2000.

    He must be back on his quest to make sure kids actually get chicken pox.

    Still, that does not change the fact that his VAERS dumpster diving was any good. He took two self-selected surveys and picked what he wanted.

    Like

  114. December 28, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    @Chris – not to mention the selection bias introduced by Mercola at the same time…….

    Like

  115. Hippocrates
    December 28, 2012 at 10:58 pm

    Chris,

    I guess that is Thingy, but I did think it was worthwhile that study has been superseded due to changes in the vaccine components.

    Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means

    BTW, one of your papers you cited has clearly supported the 1978 study linking influenza vaccines to primary and recurrent GBS. Of course, you’re not denying that, are you?

    Like

  116. December 28, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    I grew up in an anti-vaccine family, only had one vaccine my entire life, until 2007 when my son was born and I learned I was not immune to measles mumps and rubella, and that was the MMR in 1987 when I was 16. However, I had chicken pox at 18 months or so, mumps at age six, pertussis at age 17 and came out with permanent damage to my lungs that time. There were at least 4 times when I was removed from school for at least a week due to a measles outbreak in our county and us being unvaccinated. Now, I actually am very susceptible to lung infections, not to mention just being over all not in the best shape due to significantly diminished lung capacity. So all my 42 years of life, I’ve had three vaccines, an MMR at 16, a second MMR at 36 and a TDaP at 39.

    I have six children and they are all fully vaccinated and aside from my oldest getting strep throat a couple of times, and my older four getting chicken pox and secondary infections from that, my children are extremely healthy, much more so then I am.

    I’ve heard this claim made so many times by anti-vaccine people, that their non-vaccinated children are so much more healthy then their vaccinated peers, my mom used to say the same things growing up, but ya know, I actually felt like I was sick quite often growing up. Never enough for my mom to deem me stay home worthy, but sick enough that I was spreading whatever I had to other kids. And that’s not even counting the vaccine preventable diseases that my siblings and I suffered through that our vaccinated peers did not. Those studies that you cite, don’t say what you think they do, because you only pay attention to the difference in numbers between one group versus the other instead of the percentages of the groups compared. Since vaccinated individuals are so much more common then unvaccinated people, there are always going to be more illnesses reported in the large of the group, that should be common sense. Heck the numbers of illness can be doubled or tripled that of the smaller group, if the larger group is large enough. But the percentage is where the truth is actually going to be had. And there was no statistical difference between chronic illness (allergies, asthma, etc) between the two groups, and in fact the unvaccinated group had slightly higher percentage then the vaccinated group, which to me would suggest vaccines have a protective role in the development of some of these, but since the studies show the difference is not statistically significant, we’ll leave it at that. When you compare percentages of instances of illness between the two groups, one thing that you will find that is desperately different is the number of diseases that vaccines prevent being significantly higher in the no vaccinated group. So your theory is based in a mathematics flaw, or perhaps even it’s a blatant dishonest tactic to ignore what the truth really is; vaccinated people are healthier then unvaccinated people vaccinated people do not suffer through vaccine preventable diseases.

    Maybe, if this is your sole reason for being anti-vaccine, it’s time to re-evaluate your belief system.

    Like

  117. Gray Falcon
    December 28, 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Does anyone of the anti-vaccine people even understand why we’re asking for evidence? Do they think accusations are enough for a conviction? Do they realize that if we used their standards, we could have them burned as witches simply by accusing them of witchcraft?

    Like

  118. Nate
    December 28, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    @ Gray Please provide evidence that the CDC’s recommended childhood immunization schedule is safe. Vaccines for eight different diseases are given to 2-month-old infants. Please provide the scientific studies confirming the safety of administering all eight vaccines at one pediatric well-baby visit.

    Like

  119. Gray Falcon
    December 28, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    Nate :
    @ Gray Please provide evidence that the CDC’s recommended childhood immunization schedule is safe. Vaccines for eight different diseases are given to 2-month-old infants. Please provide the scientific studies confirming the safety of administering all eight vaccines at one pediatric well-baby visit.

    Can you prove to me that eating is safe? After all people choke to death all the time. Surely not eating must be safer than eating? Remember, you are comparing something against it’s alternative, not against zero.

    Like

  120. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 12:11 am

    Isn’t that an example of false analogy, eating vs vaccinating?

    Like

  121. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 12:18 am

    Hippocrates :
    Isn’t that an example of false analogy, eating vs vaccinating?

    No.

    Like

  122. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 12:33 am

    Gray Falcon,

    Please elaborate. Would you eat something you know that contains live poliovirus? I hope the answer is also a simple yes or no.

    Like

  123. Tobin Jones
    December 29, 2012 at 12:45 am

    @Gray
    Nobody is asking you to eat, nor are we claiming it is safe.

    Like

  124. Nate
    December 29, 2012 at 12:57 am

    @ Gray You made a statement insinuating that people who are opposed to vaccination are not able to differentiate between evidence-based science and pseudoscience. When I asked you to provide the science behind the CDC’s immunization schedule, you changed the topic.

    Four million babies are subjected to the CDC’s immunization schedule every year yet it is not based on science. There is no scientific evidence that it is safe to follow the CDC’s schedule. The CDC’s immunization schedule is pseudoscience.

    Like

  125. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 1:00 am

    Nate :
    @ Gray You made a statement insinuating that people who are opposed to vaccination are not able to differentiate between evidence-based science and pseudoscience. When I asked you to provide the science behind the CDC’s immunization schedule, you changed the topic.
    Four million babies are subjected to the CDC’s immunization schedule every year yet it is not based on science. There is no scientific evidence that it is safe to follow the CDC’s schedule. The CDC’s immunization schedule is pseudoscience.

    We have proof that it’s safe: The declining rates of diseases! If vaccines were dangerous, there would be more people dying and more people crippled, not less. Seriously, you’re advocating for the deaths of innocents. This is not an attempt an emotional blackmail, I am spelling you the consequences of your decisions.

    Like

  126. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 1:11 am

    TJ and Nate, at least sixteen children have died from influenza during this season. The CDC surveillance was linked in the actual article and by me says:

    Eight influenza-associated pediatric deaths were reported to CDC during week 51. Three were associated with influenza B viruses, 3 were associated with influenza A (H3) viruses, and 2 were associated with influenza A viruses for which the subtype was not determined. All 8 deaths occurred during week 50 (week ending December 15, 2012). This brings the total number of influenza-associated pediatric deaths reported during the 2012-2013 season to 16.

    So just show that the influenza vaccine kills at least sixteen people a year by posting either a public health survey or a PubMed indexed article. Though I am surprised that something like that never hit the mainstream media.

    The point is that you need to show that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Since we know the disease does and has killed children, we need actual scientific evidence that the vaccine is worse. Oh, and not by something as ( common as miscarriage: “About 15-20% of pregnancies result in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage or stillbirth).”

    Like

  127. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 1:12 am

    One other thing, Nate: I can’t prove that the CDC vaccine schedule is “safe” unless you define “safe” for me. Currently, I am using the definition: “What are the risks compared to inaction?”, in which case, vaccination is much, much, safer.

    Like

  128. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 1:17 am

    The actual (on topic) question is “how can we prevent children dying from influenza?” Unless Tobin Jones, Nate and the other have an answer to that which is viable, you are part of the problem and not the solution. So provide an actual way to keep kids from dying, actual evidence that the vaccine kills, or just go away.

    Because we already know the influenza is not safe.

    Like

  129. Tobin Jones
    December 29, 2012 at 1:32 am

    @Chris
    Sixteen influenza-associated pediatric deaths were reported?

    Associated? Reported?

    You must now post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper showing these deaths were indeed caused by influenza.

    Like

  130. Tobin Jones
    December 29, 2012 at 1:36 am

    @Gray
    Nate brings up excellent points and your answer of…….”We have proof that it’s safe: The declining rates of diseases! If vaccines were dangerous, there would be more people dying and more people crippled, not less. Seriously, you’re advocating for the deaths of innocents. This is not an attempt an emotional blackmail, I am spelling you the consequences of your decisions.” aint going cut it, Gray. I know you are smarter than to think that is a valid answer. The problem is….Nate is right and you don’t have an answer.

    Like

  131. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 1:41 am

    @Tobin: What point? He made an accusation, that’s it. You, on the other hand, made this statement:

    Tobin Jones :
    @Gray
    Nobody is asking you to eat, nor are we claiming it is safe.

    Since you seem to be unaware that human beings need to eat to survive, I can safely classify you as “too dumb to live”.

    Like

  132. Narad
    December 29, 2012 at 1:46 am

    Tobin Jones :
    @Gray
    Nobody is asking you to eat, nor are we claiming it is safe.

    “We”?

    Like

  133. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 1:50 am

    Tobin Jones:

    You must now post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper showing these deaths were indeed caused by influenza.

    The CDC Fluview website has been posted at least three times. It is surveillance data from the CDC. Certain diseases, including influenza, have required reporting. So go up and look at the links posted by Ms. Vara, Lilady and myself. Here is the cut and paste from the relevant table (I am not going to bother with its formatting):
    HHS Surveillance Regions* Data for current week Data cumulative since September 30, 2012 (Week 40)
    Out-patient ILI† % positive for flu‡ Number of jurisdictions reporting regional or widespread activity§ 2009 H1N1 A (H3) A(Subtyping not performed) B Pediatric Deaths
    Nation Elevated 29.6% 45 of 54 142 7,350 4,089 3,525 16

    And now one additional link: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm#Mortality

    I can’t make you click on the links, all I can do is ask that you provide the data that the vaccine causes more death and injury or a way to prevent pediatric influenza deaths.

    Like

  134. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 1:57 am

    Not answering means it is a false analogy. Good night, Gray.

    Like

  135. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 1:59 am

    Narad:

    “We”?

    It is the sock puppet collective. Unfortunately this is now making me think some of them are part of Neil’s Puppet Dreams. 😉

    Like

  136. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 2:04 am

    Hippocrates :
    Not answering means it is a false analogy. Good night, Gray.

    I should note for Tobin and Nate’s sake that Th1Th2 made an incomplete, and possibly, question. The “live poliovirus” she referred to could have been either the dangerous wild type or the near-harmless vaccine type. That she, despite having the evidence shown to her repeatedly, believes both are identical demonstrates why she has no place in this discussion.

    Like

  137. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 2:08 am

    Gray Falcon,

    Since you seem to be unaware that human beings need to eat to survive, I can safely classify you as “too dumb to live”.

    And vaccines are similar to eating, how?

    Are you familiar with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs? Please tell me why do you think that eating something that you know contains live poliovirus is a physiological need?

    Like

  138. Nate
    December 29, 2012 at 2:14 am

    @ Chris Actually, you are part of the problem. And I will go away when I decide to leave. Clearly, Gray cannot hold her weight on this forum with her irrational posts; she must welcome your support. However, you have already tipped your hand and showed us that you will say anything to support vaccines even when you must lie or post false information.

    Vaccines are recommended to four million infants every year yet the immunization schedule is based on pseudoscience. No one on this forum has provided the scientific evidence confirming the safety of the schedule. You demand evidence from “anti-vaccinators” yet are unable to provide scientific evidence for pro-vaccination. You are hypocritics. If you were truly concerned with science and the search for truth through the scientific method, you would demand it from both sides of the debate.

    Regarding influenza, there is a growing body of evidence that vitamin D supplementation can play a significant role in protecting against this ailment. More money and research should be placed in that direction rather than continuing to use our children as pin cushions, as though they are chattel or the property of the pharmaceutical industry. Furthermore, the influenza vaccine is not very effective as shown by Dr. Kennedy with the Cochrane Collaboration, and by other published studies. Therefore, individual protection is weak and herd immunity is not even possible with a vaccination rate of 100%.

    Like

  139. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 2:16 am

    Nate, do you wish children to die of influenza?

    Like

  140. Gray Falcon
    December 29, 2012 at 2:18 am

    @Nate: [citation needed]

    Like

  141. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 2:18 am

    Gray Falcon,

    That she, despite having the evidence shown to her repeatedly, believes both are identical demonstrates why she has no place in this discussion.

    Hmmm. The last time I checked is that you’re the one who’s trying to compare vaccines to eating. If you can’t find any similarities between the two, then that’s considered a logical fallacy.

    Also, my argument is not about eating foods with OPV vs WT poliovirus, but rather eating safely (without my food being contaminated). It seems though you’re not giving me an option to survive.

    Like

  142. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 2:19 am

    Nate:

    No one on this forum has provided the scientific evidence confirming the safety of the schedule.

    So? There is evidence that the actual disease is deadly, and you are the one making claims. Therefore you must provide the evidence that the vaccine is more deadly than the disease. That means giving us evidence it has killed more than sixteen per year, and with every week that number will go up. Because, unfortunately the flu season has just begun and more children will die.

    Regarding influenza, there is a growing body of evidence that vitamin D supplementation can play a significant role in protecting against this ailment.

    Citation needed. When I asked for a way to prevent deaths I also mentioned you needed to provide the evidence it actually worked.

    Like

  143. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 3:06 am

    Nate:

    No one on this forum has provided the scientific evidence confirming the safety of the schedule.

    Remember this article is only about influenza. And if you had read it, you will realize that it is how the vaccine is imperfect (there is a less than subtle hint in the title). Ms. Vara provided some honestly that you have missed. The main point was that no one else in the family came down with the illness because they were vaccinated.

    So here is a list of over 1600 papers on influenza vaccine safety, have fun reading them all. You’ll probably need to visit a medical school library for most of them.

    But here is one that might be of interest: Trivalent Inactivated Influenza Vaccine and Spontaneous Abortion.. They used actual surveillance data from the Vaccine Safety Datalink and then concluded: ” There was no statistically significant increase in the risk of pregnancy loss in the 4 weeks after seasonal inactivated influenza vaccination.”

    Now, we will be waiting for those citations on how Vitamin D will prevent influenza and how the influenza vaccine causes more than sixteen deaths per year. Do do try to find those.

    Like

  144. December 29, 2012 at 9:25 am

    And these as well:

    http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/vaccine_safety/science.htm

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/development-immunization-schedule

    All the information you require, right at your finger-tips, if you actually bothered to look, as opposed to parroting the typical anti-vaccine lies and misrepresentations.

    Like

  145. December 29, 2012 at 9:28 am

    @Nate – there was a very lively discussion here regarding the effectiveness of the flu vaccine. If you were up on the current research, you’d see that there is a push towards a more “Universal” flu vaccine that would resolve many of the issues with dealing with a fast-mutating disease, which would allow for better coverage, better effectiveness, and of course, moving towards developing “herd immunity” for the flu.

    It isn’t a magic bullet process – it takes time, but until such time as a more Universal flu vaccine can be deployed, we do the best we can with what we have available – some years will continue to be better than others, but I’ll take the vaccine over the flu any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

    Like

  146. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 10:22 am

    @ Lawrence: The second quadrivalent seasonal flu vaccine has been approved by the FDA…it joins the quadrivalent LAIV which was approved February, 2012:

    http://www.ashp.org/menu/News/PharmacyNews/NewsArticle.aspx?id=3829

    Like

  147. December 29, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Every time anyone in our family gets the flu vaccine they get the flu. I haven’t had the flu vaccine in years and guess what? I haven’t had the flu in that length of time either. This year the only people in our family who got the flu were the ones who vaccinated against it. I don’t trust the flu vaccine or really any other vaccine for that matter especially since my son had adverse reactions to his baby vaccines every time he received them. His last one was just a flu vaccine and that was the one that caused him at the age of 3 to lose his speech causing him to revert all the way back to baby babble and it took him a week to “relearn” what he lost. He didn’t get the flu from it, but I would say what happened to him was worse than him getting sick. I am just glad the damage wasn’t permanent that time.

    Like

  148. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    “Every time anyone in our family gets the flu vaccine they get the flu. I haven’t had the flu vaccine in years and guess what? I haven’t had the flu in that length of time either. This year the only people in our family who got the flu were the ones who vaccinated against it.”

    Really Christina? Each and every person in your family gets the flu and you seem to associate that with the seasonal flu vaccine. What kind of vaccine did they get? When did they contract the flu relative to the time they got the flu vaccine? Did they test positive for the strain of flu that is contained in the vaccine? Which test was used to determine they had influenza?

    “I don’t trust the flu vaccine or really any other vaccine for that matter especially since my son had adverse reactions to his baby vaccines every time he received them.”

    What type of “adverse reaction” did your son experience with each of the baby vaccines he received? Did your doctor confirm that your son had an adverse reaction to each of these vaccines?

    “His last one was just a flu vaccine and that was the one that caused him at the age of 3 to lose his speech causing him to revert all the way back to baby babble and it took him a week to “relearn” what he lost. He didn’t get the flu from it, but I would say what happened to him was worse than him getting sick. I am just glad the damage wasn’t permanent that time.”

    That’s not an adverse reaction and you have no way of knowing if he had any reaction to the flu vaccine. BTW, it would take him more than…a lot more than…to “relearn” what you *claim* “he lost”.

    Are you are doctor or a nurse Christina? Have you ever cared for child who is critically ill because (s)he contracted the influenza virus?

    Like

  149. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Chris,

    If Mr Gray Falcon would like to see a valid and logical comparison between two similar entities is to check on one of the papers Chris’ had cited, “Increased incidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome after surgery.” That is, comparison between two known iatrogenic causes of GBS.

    Like

  150. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    lilady,

    Really Christina? Each and every person in your family gets the flu and you seem to associate that with the seasonal flu vaccine. What kind of vaccine did they get? When did they contract the flu relative to the time they got the flu vaccine? Did they test positive for the strain of flu that is contained in the vaccine? Which test was used to determine they had influenza?

    In fairness, I thought those questions should be directed to Christina Vara.

    Like

  151. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Lawrence,

    What do you mean by “universal” flu vaccine? Is this the new vaccine developed from tissue culture cell lines?

    Like

  152. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    @ Hippocrates:

    “In fairness, I thought those questions should be directed to Christina Vara.”

    My questions were addressed to the correct person, Christina Boyce Allman, who posted those statements about her claims associating influenza with the season influenza vaccine. If you had actually read Christine (not “Christina”) Vara’s post, you would know that she did not make that claim.

    “What do you mean by “universal” flu vaccine? Is this the new vaccine developed from tissue culture cell lines?”

    Here’s what Lawrence meant by the terminology “universal” flu vaccine. Tsk, tsk Hippocrates, you’re not keeping up the latest studies about immunology and virology, if you waste your time reading anti-vaccine blogs and you waste your time posting endless inane comments on SOP.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/30/science/scientists-move-closer-to-a-long-lasting-flu-vaccine.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Like

  153. December 29, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    @lilady – I’m watching this research closely. If they do manage to successfully develop and deploy a more “Universal” flu vaccine, it could have huge implications for the redevelopment of other vaccines and enable us to tackle other diseases as well – a broader spectrum that would hit more diseases, in less shots, with even fewer antigens than we get today.

    This is the type of research that really matters – but, of course, the anti-vaccine cranks will find some reason to work against it.

    Like

  154. Nate
    December 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    @ Chris Once again, you have failed to provide the scientific citations providing evidence that the CDC’s immunization schedule is safe. If vaccination is a science, it should be based upon sound scientific principles. If 4 million infants annually are to receive a cocktail of vaccines for 8 different diseases, we should have scientific evidence that this combination of vaccines is not placing these infants at risk. Please provide this forum with the documentation showing that the cumulative and synergistic effects of 8 vaccines administered simultaneously is a safe procedure. Be sure to include citations to any longitudinal studies so that our nation’s parents can be assured that their children are not being experimented on.

    P.S. Larry doesn’t seem to understand the difference between scientific citations and industry promo (although many of the official studies are poorly designed and could be classified as nothing more than vaccine propaganda).

    Regarding studies of influenza vaccination, the Cochrane Collaboration analyzed all previous influenza vaccination studies and concluded that there is little evidence of safety and efficacy. So this isn’t a numbers game; hundreds of irrelevant or false studies do not compare to one comprehensive study that shows influenza vaccination to be unimpressive, essentially a boon to vaccine manufacturers but little else.

    Regarding vitamin D, Epidemiology and Infection (Dec 2006) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870528/) provided evidence that Vitamin D deficiency predisposes children to respiratory infections and that supplementation reduces the incidence of respiratory infections in children. This is just one study; there is other evidence that vitamin D supplementation may be a superior (and less expensive, less invasive) method of protection against influenza. As I stated in an earlier post, I would like to see more research dollars dedicated to this line of preventive health.

    Regarding influenza deaths, please provide the evidence that all of these deaths were truly caused by influenza. Also, if these were laboratory confimed, explain to me why laboratory confirmation is not required when a report is filed with VAERS showing death from influenza vaccination. I am asking why you believe it’s valid to dismiss VAERS reports of influenza vaccination fatalities as anecdotal when no one is sent out to determine whether there is a correlation between the reported influenza vaccine-related death and the child’s recent influenza vaccination? If we truly care about our nation’s children, these deaths would be investigated to determine whether it’s merely a temporal association (as pro-vaccinators are quick to claim) or is indeed related to the recent vaccination. For the record, I will continue to consider these VAERS reports as evidence of vaccine damage and death — and will encourage others to do the same — until such time as they are independently confirmed as not being related to the recent vaccination.

    Like

  155. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    lilady,

    My questions were addressed to the correct person, Christina Boyce Allman, who posted those statements about her claims associating influenza with the season influenza vaccine. If you had actually read Christine (not “Christina”) Vara’s post, you would know that she did not make that claim.

    Christine Vara made a claim that her daughter had the flu, do you have any confirmation on this? What I was saying is the doctor who made the diagnosis based it on a specific test/s or mere clinical findings?

    Here’s what Lawrence meant by the terminology “universal” flu vaccine. Tsk, tsk Hippocrates, you’re not keeping up the latest studies about immunology and virology, if you waste your time reading anti-vaccine blogs and you waste your time posting endless inane comments on SOP

    OK I just read it and the usual theme will always stay the same, “The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing form of the organism, the better the immune response to the vaccine.”

    keyword: T cells, natural infection

    Like

  156. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    lilady,

    I quoted this part from the link you gave why the vaccinated will always be the real threat to the unvaccinated.

    Methods.Volunteers with no measurable serum antibodies to influenza A/Wisconsin/67/2005 received either a single vaccination with MVA-NP+M1 or no vaccination. T-cell responses to the vaccine antigens were measured at enrollment and again prior to virus challenge. All volunteers underwent intranasal administration of influenza A/Wisconsin/67/2005 while in a quarantine unit and were monitored for symptoms of influenza disease and virus shedding.

    Results.Volunteers had a significantly increased T-cell response to the vaccine antigens following a single dose of the vaccine, with an increase in cytolytic effector molecules. Intranasal influenza challenge was undertaken without safety issues. Two of 11 vaccinees and 5 of 11 control subjects developed laboratory-confirmed influenza (symptoms plus virus shedding). Symptoms of influenza were less pronounced in the vaccinees and there was a significant reduction in the number of days of virus shedding in those vaccinees who developed influenza (mean, 1.09 days in controls, 0.45 days in vaccinees, P = .036

    “Hug me, I’m vaccinated”..?

    Only in Htrae.

    Like

  157. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Nate:

    @ Chris Once again, you have failed to provide the scientific citations providing evidence that the CDC’s immunization schedule is safe.

    So? That is an off topic request that has nothing to do with influenza. What I did do is give you a link to over 1600 papers on influenza vaccine safety. Also we have given you multiple times the links to the CDC surveillance, which includes the numbers that were tested positive for influenza.

    OOOOh! One 2006 paper on Vitamine D by the guy whose life is to promote and sell supplements. Sorry I am not impressed. But you continue to make this claim:

    This is just one study; there is other evidence that vitamin D supplementation may be a superior (and less expensive, less invasive) method of protection against influenza.

    Cite them. You really have to show that one vitamin actually protects against flu, not just modify the symptoms.

    Regarding influenza deaths, please provide the evidence that all of these deaths were truly caused by influenza.

    And again, read the links from the CDC FluView we have provided multiple times. Here is one again, try actually reading it, along with the CDC Weekly FluView:
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm

    Now were is the evidence that any influenza vaccine kills at least sixteen people per year?

    Like

  158. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Nate:

    P.S. Larry doesn’t seem to understand the difference between scientific citations and industry promo (although many of the official studies are poorly designed and could be classified as nothing more than vaccine propaganda).

    Which is followed by this paper:

    Epidemic influenza and vitamin D
    J. J. CANNELL,1,* R. VIETH,2 J. C. UMHAU,3 M. F. HOLICK,4 W. B. GRANT,5 S. MADRONICH,6 C. F. GARLAND,7 and E. GIOVANNUCCI8

    And look what we have here: Dr. Cannell’s Advanced D

    So are you now using supplement industry promos as evidence? Make sure any future citations showing that Vitamin D can protect from influenza better than the vaccine (your claim) does not include Cannell or his associates. Because that would be a conflict of interest.

    Like

  159. December 29, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @Nate – VAERS reports are followed-up upon, especially the ones that cite serious adverse events, including Death. What you don’t find in VAERS is any information on what the follow-up found (which is clearly stated in the VAERS disclaimer – if you bothered to read it, which I’m sure you haven’t).

    It doesn’t take anything to file a VAERS report – which is why it is inherently unreliable to base any sort of research (like the one you cited, for instance) – what is reliable is the information from the follow-ups to VAERS which are part of the Vaccine Safety Program – which does track both trends and individual adverse events to make sure the vaccines continue to be both effective and safe.

    As for the Conchrane Collaboration – even that report showed, that based on the extremely low number of reported adverse reactions, the flu vaccine is among the safest vaccines available. And again, as I pointed out, work on a more “Universal” flu vaccine will make the vaccine even more effective and long-lasting……whereas your citation of Vitamin D is done solely for the purpose of selling Vitamin D supplements.

    And please to continue to ignore Chris’ response to your question about Influenza mortality confirmation – it shows your amazing lack of comprehension & gives us further cause to dismiss anything you may have to say because of lack of evidence, proof or recognition of facts.

    Like

  160. December 29, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    @Nate – seems you don’t know the difference between scientific citations and industry promotions, given the rampant conflict of interest that Chris has cited for you.

    Like

  161. December 29, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    @Chris – in case Nate is unable to figure out how to click on a link:

    3. Mortality Surveillance — Rapid tracking of influenza-associated deaths is done through two systems:

    122 Cities Mortality Reporting System —Each week, the vital statistics offices of 122 cities across the United States report the total number of death certificates processed and the number of those for which pneumonia or influenza was listed as the underlying or contributing cause of death by age group (Under 28 days, 28 days –1 year, 1-14 years, 15-24 years, 25-44 years, 45-64 years, 65-74 years, 75-84 years, and ≥ 85 years). The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) are compared with a seasonal baseline and epidemic threshold value calculated for each week. The seasonal baseline of P&I deaths is calculated using a periodic regression model that incorporates a robust regression procedure applied to data from the previous five years. An increase of 1.645 standard deviations above the seasonal baseline of P&I deaths is considered the “epidemic threshold,” i.e., the point at which the observed proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia or influenza was significantly higher than would be expected at that time of the year in the absence of substantial influenza-related mortality.
    Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality Surveillance System — Influenza-associated deaths in children (persons less than 18 years) was added as a nationally notifiable condition in 2004. Any laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated death in a child is reported through this system. Demographic and clinical information are collected on each case and are transmitted to CDC.

    4. Hospitalization Surveillance —Laboratory confirmed influenza-associated hospitalizations in children and adults are monitored through the Influenza Hospitalization Surveillance Network (FluSurv-NET).

    Influenza Hospitalization Network (FluSurv-NET) —FluSurv-NET conducts surveillance for population-based, laboratory-confirmed influenza related hospitalizations in children (persons less than 18 years) and adults. The network covers over 80 counties in the 10 Emerging Infections Program (EIP) states (CA, CO, CT, GA, MD, MN, NM, NY, OR, and TN) and five additional states (IA, MI, OH, RI and UT). Cases are identified by reviewing hospital laboratory and admission databases and infection control logs for children and adults with a documented positive influenza test (viral culture, direct/indirect fluorescent antibody assay (DFA/IFA), reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR), or a rapid influenza diagnostic test (RIDT)) conducted as a part of routine patient care. FluSurv-NET estimated hospitalization rates are reported each week during the influenza season.

    Like

  162. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    @ Nate: I prefer to look at the NIH, Office of Dietary Supplements for the most up-to-date information on Vitamin D and its role in human health…not an article published six years ago.

    http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional/

    Did you actually read the article you linked to? It only discusses vitamin D deficiencies that might impact the immune system. It also put forth theories about latitudes where a population resides as risk factors for Vitamin D deficiencis. The NIH, ODS link has the most up-to-date research about latitudes, sun exposure, vitamin D fortified foods, foods high in Vitamin D and the limitations of various serum tests to determine vitamin D deficiency states. Your link DID NOT state that Vitamin D supplementation for Vitamin D deficiencies is protective against influenza viruses, and DID NOT suggest that Vitamin D supplements should be taken in lieu of seasonal influenza vaccines.

    Now if you are getting your information about Vitamin D hypovitaminosis from crank supplements-selling doctors or Vitamin supplements snake oil salesmen, you would increase the risk of Vitamin D hypervitaminosis and expose yourself to damages to your major organs.

    One of these crank doctors, in addition to his huge internet vitamin and supplement businesses, also hawks $ 4,000 tanning beds. He’s able to make a success out of hawking of vitamins, supplements and a slew of “health” equipment, because he has a newsletter with nonsense pseudoscientific articles and because credulous people buy into his pseudoscience.

    You state…

    “This is just one study; there is other evidence that vitamin D supplementation may be a superior (and less expensive, less invasive) method of protection against influenza. As I stated in an earlier post, I would like to see more research dollars dedicated to this line of preventive health.”

    Show us those studies that prove Vitamin D supplementation “may be a superior (and less expensive, less invasive) method of protection against influenza.”

    Your posts are an example of troll behaviors and I will no longer reply to any of your statements.

    Like

  163. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    @ Hippocrates: You really are a troll…who also lacks basic reading comprehension skills.

    I posed those questions to “Christina Boyce Allman” who made all those *claims*. It appears that Allman is a drive-by poster who found herself on a science blog…inadvertently…instead of her usual Facebook and anti-vaccine blogs.

    Like

  164. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Lawrence (quoting the link I have offered many times):

    Any laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated death in a child is reported through this system.

    Which is precisely why I am only asking for the evidence the vaccine kills more than the children killed by influenza. Those are actually laboratory confirmed. And I really hope that the numbers do not go up as high as they did in 2009-2010 season, over 280 (Nate just scroll down the Weekly CDC Flu Update to the plot for “Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality:”, it is just under the words I quoted here.

    The quote and plot were from the second link Ms. Vara included in her article (which you were told about multiple times) in this sentence: “It’s true that flu season started early this year, and there have already been reports of several deaths from the flu, including some infants.”

    Now all you have to do is find that sentence and click on the blue letters.

    Like

  165. December 29, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    @Chris – unfortunately, I doubt Nate will do that…..

    Like

  166. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    lilady,

    MY DAUGHTER GOT THE FLU SHOT AND STILL GOT THE FLU
    Posted by Christine Vara

    Again, I’m just using the same evidence-based science you’ve been asking for,

    Which test was used to determine they had influenza?

    Do you believe Christine Vara’s story? If so, show us the evidence that her daughter had the flu, if you don’t mind.

    Like

  167. lilady
    December 29, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Ignoring Hypocritical Troll.

    Like

  168. Hippocrates
    December 29, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    What I would like for Christine Vara to do is to come down here and tell the truth, like

    1. My daughter had the flu because the rapid influenza test was positive.

    2. My daughter did not have strep because the rapid strep test showed otherwise.

    What is she hiding?

    Like

  169. December 29, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @insane troll – you can email her directly and ask…please stop wasting the rest of our time with our inane and quite frankly, insane comments.

    Like

  170. TJK
    December 29, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    If you read ther CDC website, I am not sure they even know the numbers. Also, the deaths listed are from complications from the flu and not the virus itself. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

    Pediatric Doc :
    Overwhelming scientific evidence supports the recommendation for flu vaccination. That is why the vaccine is recommended by the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics), ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices), CDC (Center for Disease Control), WHO (World Health Organization), and AMA (American Medical Association).
    The flu virus itself kills approx 36,000 people each year in the US (variable depending on the season and strains circulating of course).
    When people like Laura Jane are ranting against the vaccine, not only are they spreading BS that has been disproven by overwhelming scientific evidence, they are helping to promote the death of thousands of people to what is a fairly preventable infection.
    Every expert panel currently recommends the Flu Vaccine, and they do it based on good scientific evidence…

    Like

  171. December 29, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    @TKJ – so if someone dies of complications from the “flu” it probably also means they wouldn’t have died if they hadn’t contracted the flu…..

    So, if we can prevent more people from getting the flu by vaccinating, less people will die from complications from a disease they never get.

    Like

  172. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    TJK, someone on an earlier thread was also positing that since the opportunistic bacterial infection caused deadly complication, then it wasn’t influenza’s fault. But he posted this paper: Bacterial Pneumonia Caused Most Deaths in 1918 Influenza Pandemic. But it looked like he did not read past the title. Because it actually said:

    There also was evidence that the virus destroyed the cells lining the bronchial tubes, including cells with protective hair-like projections, or cilia. This loss made other kinds of cells throughout the entire respiratory tract — including cells deep in the lungs — vulnerable to attack by bacteria that migrated down the newly created pathway from the nose and throat.

    Viral infections are known to suppress immune reactions, so that makes a person vulnerable to bacterial infections. It is prudent to avoid those viral infections by vaccinating.

    Like

  173. novalox
    December 29, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    I doubt we’ll be hearing from nate again, since it’s been proven that all he is is just a supplement shill, with nothing of substance to add to the conversation.

    Like

  174. Nate
    December 29, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Regarding Dr. Cannell and his research on vitamin D, he is not a quack. Nor should he be discounted simply because a pro-vaccinator claims that he has a conflict of interest. By that reasoning, pediatricians are unqualified to publish vaccine studies or comment on vaccinations because they make their living peddling vaccines.

    Regarding the concept of “evidence,” it entails much more than citations to studies. When a mother claims that her child was healthy until vaccinations were given, that is evidence of a possible relationship between vaccinations and the adverse event that occurred. The VAERS database provides stronger evidence of a relationship between vaccines and vaccine-related complications and death. The fact that some reports may be faulty or anyone can file a report does not negate the fact that VAERS provides opportunities to assess significant vaccine-related trends. Furthermore, up to one-third of all “studies” are eventually disproven, indicating that citations can be deceptive forms of “evidence.”

    Regarding the CDC immunization schedule, apparently the pro-vaccinators on this site agree that it does not conform to evidence-based science since no one has come forth with any studies confirming the safety of administering eight vaccines simultaneously to 2-month-old infants. Rather, the CDC immunization schedule is pseudoscience and pro-vaccinators are shamelessly experimenting on our babies.

    Regarding deaths attributed to influenza, I wonder if there were pre-existing conditions, such as previous vaccines that might have lowered resistance to disease, or whether there were deficient vitamin D levels. Were vitamin D levels analyzed when the deaths were attributed to influenza? Perhaps these deaths could have been avoided with vitamin D supplementation.

    Like

  175. December 29, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    @Nate – since you have systematically ignored all evidence that shows that your blind assertions are without merit or evidence, I deem you to be extremely troll-worthy.

    By your reasoning, since doctors and hospitals make a lot more money (and profits) from treating diseases, they should all be against vaccinations – since treating disease is much more profitable than preventing it.

    VAERS entries are investigated – legitimate reactions are added to the CDC database and verified, which is exactly what it is designed for – using it for blind research, without consideration of the follow-up activities, is very bad science.

    And again, no evidence whatsoever to back up any of your assertions – plus blaming the victim (if they had only had more Vitamin D!!!) the fact that people die from the flu or complications arising from the flu means that we should strive to prevent more people from getting the flu in the first place – you can’t die of something you never get.

    You are getting old Nate – lack of evidence, inability to provide citations or proof & adherence to quack ideas like Vitamin D cures all ills, just shows how woefully uneducated you are…..why don’t you head over to AoA – they love people like you.

    Like

  176. dingo199
    December 29, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    @Nate, please define what you mean by “safe” in the context of administering vaccines.

    And while you are at it, please provide evidence that wearing seat belts is similarly “safe”.

    I’d like to get an inside track on your reasoning, if you have any.

    Like

  177. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Nate:

    Regarding deaths attributed to influenza, I wonder if there were pre-existing conditions, such as previous vaccines that might have lowered resistance to disease, or whether there were deficient vitamin D levels.

    So here we have three things:

    1: Eugenics: they wouldn’t have died if they were flawed in some way!

    2: Vitamin D: still shilling for supplements!

    3: Blame the victim: because it can’t be influenza, it is the fault of the dead children and their parents!

    Nate, you sure are a piece of work. You still have not provided any real evidence, and your compassion for children who die from vaccine preventable diseases is absolutely homeopathic.

    Like

  178. Chris
    December 29, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    I should add, Nate, that being healthy with a robust immune system can be the cause of death from influenza. That is because the body over reacts and creates too much inflammation, killing the patient. That was why the young and healthy died more readily during the 1918 influenza pandemic.

    It is being studied so that it can be combatted: Immunomodulatory therapy for severe influenza.:

    Influenza A virus is a significant cause of morbidity and mortality worldwide. Severe influenza is recognized as a clinical syndrome, characterized by hyperinduction of proinflammatory cytokine production, otherwise known as hypercytokinemia or a ‘cytokine storm’. Research focused on therapeutics to modulate influenza virus-induced inflammation is currently underway

    So now you have another way to blame the victim: they died because they were too healthy.

    Like

  179. Nate
    December 29, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    The group of you are certainly among the most arrogant I have encountered in quite a while, resorting to name-calling and bullying of anyone who posts something against your mindset. You also show signs of great irrationality, posting lots of nonsense as though it has any real merit. For example, a true scientist would investigate all options. In the 1930s, cod liver oil was given to measles patients because they were deficient in vitamin A. Studies have shown that providing vitamin A supplements to people who are exposed to measles can protect them from complications of the disease. I wonder if that was considered “shilling for supplements.” I wonder if doctors who administered vitamin A to protect their patients against measles complications were told that they were “blaming the victim.” Even the World Health Organization acknowledges that a child’s nutritional status is one of the main determinants of whether their exposure to disease will be mild or severe.

    The July-August 2009 issue of Endocrine Practice [http://www.endocrinepractice.org/content/j18mwvg5t33n4337/?p=63bc205807ed4dcc97e58e561cf0d0fe&pi=5] found strong evidence that vitamin D might not only protect against influenza but could be used to treat it as well.

    Regarding comments about being a troll or “troll-worthy,” I am not aware of what this means or how I might be doing this. I am simply posting my own knowledge about vaccines and responding to some of your posts. I thought there would be rational, civilized discussion on this forum but I was mistaken. Many of you are apparently rabid pro-vaccinators and are only interested in bullying the rest of us who don’t agree with your own biased and cherry-picked versions of “evidence.”

    I have heard rumors that the pharmaceutical industry has numerous representatives who have infiltrated the internet using pseudonyms. They post on vaccine forums to perpetuate the positions of the pharmaceutical industry. I wonder if this is true and whether any of you are associated with the vaccine industry. Many of you certainly have canned responses indicating a collaborative effort to manipulate how people think about vaccines. What a shame so many of you were never taught manners. The level of condescension and intolerance on this forum is atrocious.

    Like

  180. novalox
    December 30, 2012 at 12:05 am

    @nate

    So you have nothing to prove your assertions and instead resort to baseless accusations and ad hominems, as well as the old “pharma shill gambit”, the last resort of a quack troll.

    You have not answered any questions that the posters have given to you, instead calling them “condescending” and “atrocious”

    I’ll say this, if you are not willing to answer questions nor give any proof of your assertions, don’t be surprised when you are openly challenged and asked for unbiased evidence.

    And based by your non-answers and cries of persecutions, instead of answering the questions frankly, we can all assume that you are nothing more than a supplement-shilling quack and an anti-vaccine loon, worthy of derision and mockery. We can also assume that you are willing to see innocent children die due to vaccine-preventable diseases, and that you are nothing more than a monster who would rather make a quick buck than see children prevented from getting the flu.

    Like

  181. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 12:08 am

    Nate, this is what that study says:

    Thirteen published controlled trials were identified by our search criteria. Ten trials were placebo controlled, and 9 of the 10 were conducted in a rigorous double-blind design. The selected clinical trials demonstrated substantial heterogeneity in baseline patient demographics, sample size, and vitamin D intervention strategies. Serious adverse events attributable to vitamin D supplementation were rare across all studies. On the basis of studies reviewed to date, the strongest evidence supports further research into adjunctive vitamin D therapy for tuberculosis, influenza, and viral upper respiratory tract illnesses. In the selected studies, certain aspects of study design are highlighted to help guide future clinical research in the field.

    It is not convincing. It says further research for adjunctive use, not exactly preventing or curing.

    Nate:

    You also show signs of great irrationality, posting lots of nonsense as though it has any real merit.

    You are the one who asked if the children had some defect that made them more susceptible. I think that is a deplorable behavior. Though, good for you! Being healthy also makes people a good candidate for death by inflammation. I included one of many cites I found, though it is also explained well in John Barry’s book The Great Influenza.

    I have heard rumors that the pharmaceutical industry has numerous representatives who have infiltrated the internet using pseudonyms.

    Again, as I said before the Pharma Shill Gambit is old and tired. Now, you still need to provide some evidence that the influenza vaccine regularly kills at least sixteen people per year.

    Though I have another question for you. Look at this plot of the Laboratory Confirmed Influenza Hospitalizations. Tell me the demographic of the second to the top line (it is blue), and why it is important to those who have compassion for children.

    (oh, I was sent of copy of Goldman’s 2012 Vaccine paper, it is essentially a rant against his former employers and the data is a decade old, which is about the time he left the group).

    Like

  182. December 30, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Nate :
    The group of you are certainly among the most arrogant I have encountered in quite a while, resorting to name-calling and bullying of anyone who posts something against your mindset.

    Sorry but I’m going to need you to provide specific references to instances where you have seen any one of us name calling and/or bullying anyone who posts anything ‘against our mind set’ which would also be against what science tells us is correct. If it has happened as often as you seem to believe it has, please provide exact quotes of those instances of name calling and bullying you have witnessed.

    I’ve seen name calling and bullying from the anti-vaccine supporters, multiple times in fact, but haven’t seen what you think you have seen. And for the record, insinuating someone is a ‘pharma shill’ is a form of name calling and/or bullying. It’s really easy to make a claim, it’s a lot harder to back up that claim with real, true evidence, if the claim is not true. Asking for evidence of what you claim doesn’t make us bullies, or arrogant. It makes us skeptical and unwilling to take anything at face value. If you want us to believe your claims, show us the evidence that makes it believable. Otherwise, you are essentially just talking to yourself to hear yourself talk here.

    Like

  183. Gray Falcon
    December 30, 2012 at 12:32 am

    Nate, could you define what you mean by “safe”? This is not us being contrary or stupid. Everything on this planet carries a level of risk, however small, so simply claiming “it isn’t dangerous” means nothing. If Vitamin D supplementation was found to cause little harm (excessive vitamin consumption is as dangerous as deprivation), but provided minimal protection against the flu, then we could consider it worse than vaccination. We are trying to make decisions intelligently, which means having all the information we need. So why do you feel it’s right to withhold the information we require?

    Like

  184. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 12:41 am

    Ms. Lohne, I interpreted my reaction to him asking if the children who died from influenza due some “pre-existing” condition as the “name calling and bullying”, even though I never typed the word “troll” in any of my responses. I tend to react badly to suggestions that children with health issues (like my son’s genetic heart condition) are expected to die from infection.

    Though, truthfully, one of the “pre-existing conditions” could be perfect health which causes a greater inflammatory* response. So he was good with on victim blaming at both ends of the health spectrum. I perhaps “bullied” him by calling out the victim blaming aspect of his speculations. Perhaps I am being too kind. I really just want Nate to answer my questions.

    * Once in a biology class we were discussing health practices. Someone brought up the standard “boost your immunity” canard. I have hayfever and am allergic to nickel (my spouse has a good reason to not buy me jewelry). I responded that my immune system wants to kill me, as I have had my face swell up when alder trees pollen is abundant! As it turns out the immune system is finely tuned, and there are several other conditions that a associated with it being out of whack (Lupus, diabetes, etc).

    Like

  185. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 1:16 am

    Myself:

    even though I never typed the word “troll” in any of my responses.

    Actually I did once. It was asking when I used the term “insane troll” here, asking for a link where I used that term.

    Like

  186. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 1:35 am

    Chris,

    “Boost your immunity canard”??

    Are you referring to booster shots?

    Like

  187. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 1:42 am

    Chris,

    I should add, Nate, that being healthy with a robust immune system can be the cause of death from influenza. That is because the body over reacts and creates too much inflammation, killing the patient. That was why the young and healthy died more readily during the 1918 influenza pandemic.

    What are you talking about? Are you saying that in the event of influenza, the unhealthy, malnourished and immunosuppressed have a greater chance of survival than healthy individuals?

    Like

  188. lilady
    December 30, 2012 at 2:25 am

    Look what I found.

    http://www.endo-society.org/guidelines/final/upload/final-standalone-vitamin-d-guideline.pdf

    Evaluation, Treatment, and Prevention of Vitamin D Deficiency:
    An Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline, published July, 2012.

    Guess what…each and every “study”/link that Nate provided INCLUDING CANELL’S…and that he misinterpreted/cherry-picked are discussed here….including the study that Chris located, which “supported further research” for Vitamin D supplementation for patients with tuberculosis

    “On the basis of studies reviewed to date, the strongest evidence supports further research into adjunctive vitamin D therapy for tuberculosis, influenza, and viral upper respiratory tract illnesses. In the selected studies, certain aspects of study design are highlighted to help guide future clinical research in the field.”

    See Page 18-19 of the Treatment Guidelines, for patients who have tuberculosis who ARE AT RISK FOR HYPERCALCIURIA AND HYPERCALCEMIA when they take Vitamin D Supplements…

    “….Hence, vitamin D supplementation should not be a major concern except in certain populations who may be more sensitive to it. Patients who have chronic granuloma forming disorders including sarcoidosis or tuberculosis, or chronic fungal infections, and some patients with lymphoma have activated macrophages that produce 1,25(OH)2D in an unregulated fashion (3, 44). These patients exhibit an increase in the efficiency of intestinal calcium
    absorption and mobilization of calcium from the skeleton that can cause hypercalciuria and hypercalcemia. Thus, their 25(OH)D and calcium levels should be monitored carefully. Hypercalciuria and hypercalcemia are usually observed only in patients with granuloma-forming disorders when the 25(OH)D is above 30 ng/ml (44).”

    I suggest that “Nate” should stop posting here about Vitamin D Supplements, until he reads the July 2012 36-page Vitamin D Treatment Guidelines

    Like

  189. lilady
    December 30, 2012 at 2:27 am

    Still ignoring Hypocritical Troll.

    Like

  190. Nate
    December 30, 2012 at 2:39 am

    Requesting evidence is certainly appropriate and does not qualify one as arrogant or a bully. However, this forum is loaded with condescending bullies. Here is a brief list of name-calling and bullying that I have experienced in my brief trek upon this forum:

    Post #86: Lilady said that Dr. Goldman is not a scientist and called him a “joke in the science community.” This is extremely condescending.

    Post#112: Larry told me to “slink back to AoA…” This is extremely condescending.

    Post#117: Gray Falcon asked if “anyone of the anti-vaccine people even understand why we’re asking for evidence?” This is extremely condescending. (Yet he/she was unable to provide evidence of vaccine safety regarding the CDC immunization schedule.)

    Post#125: Gray claimed that I am “advocating for the deaths of innocents” because I requested proof that the CDC’s immunization schedule is evidence-based. And his/her proof that vaccines are safe is because there are declining rates of disease! Yes, and my “proof” of vaccine dangers is because of the increasing rates of cancer!

    Post #155: Larry refers to people as “cranks.”

    Post#161: Larry makes the following comment: “What you don’t find in VAERS is any information on what the follow-up found (which is clearly stated in the VAERS disclaimer – if you bothered to read it, which I’m sure you haven’t).” This is condescending and nasty.

    For the record, I have read the VAERS disclaimer and I also know of people who filed reports that would be considered serious, yet there were no follow-ups. I also know that VAERS is paid for by tax dollars and all follow-ups should be made publicly available.

    In this same post, Larry also claims that I have an “amazing lack of comprehension” and that it gives “us” further cause to dismiss anything I may have to say. Really? Yet Gray Falcon gets a free pass with his “analogy” to food and his “proof” that vaccines are safe because of declining disease rates? Chris gets a free pass when he pretended to know Dr. Goldman’s credentials but he was really just making up lies and now expects anyone to trust his judgment or comprehension?

    Post #163: Larry had a good chuckle with Chris because I may be “unable to figure out how to click on a link.”

    Post#164: Lilady called me a troll. (At least she agreed to ignore my future posts.)

    Post#175: Novalox doubts that “we’ll be hearing from nate again, since it’s been proven that all he is is just a supplement shill, with nothing of substance to add to the conversation.” Really? All of that was proven? I feel as though I’m crashing some sort of exclusive club where outsiders are persistently ridiculed and demeaned.

    Post#177: Larry calls me “woefully uneducated.”

    Post#178: Dingo would “like to get an inside track” on my reasoning, “if [I] have any.”

    Post#182: Novalox refers to me as a “supplement-shilling quack and an anti-vaccine loon, worthy of derision and mockery.” He also assumes that I am “willing to see innocent children die due to vaccine-preventable diseases.” He also claims that I am “nothing more than a monster who would rather make a quick buck than see children prevented from getting the flu.”

    Wow. The intellectual discourse on this forum is crude. You ought to be able to make your points without the condescending remarks.

    Like

  191. novalox
    December 30, 2012 at 3:15 am

    @nate

    Well, you’ve proven yourself as nothing more than a uniformed troll and a supplement-shilling quack with all of the above with your pharma shill gambits and ad hominems.

    Besides, if you are not going to answer the questions posed to you honestly, as well as answer for you obvious conflict of interest, instead throwing out accusations and attacks, why should we bother with you?

    Like

  192. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 3:56 am

    So, Nate, why won’t you answer any of my questions?

    Here goes in reverse chronological order:

    1: Though I have another question for you. Look at this plot of the Laboratory Confirmed Influenza Hospitalizations. Tell me the demographic of the second to the top line (it is blue), and why it is important to those who have compassion for children.

    2: Nate:

    This is just one study; there is other evidence that vitamin D supplementation may be a superior (and less expensive, less invasive) method of protection against influenza.

    Cite them. You really have to show that one vitamin actually protects against flu, not just modify the symptoms. Addition: not just as “adjunctive use.”

    3: So who pays out to the parents of the eight sixteen children who had died from influenza this year? Ms. Vara posted the CDC FluView weekly report in the article, so you must have seen it. Oh, look it has been updated, there are now sixteen pediatric deaths.

    4: So just show that the influenza vaccine kills at least sixteen people a year by posting either a public health survey or a PubMed indexed article. Though I am surprised that something like that never hit the mainstream media.

    Just answer the questions.

    Like

  193. December 30, 2012 at 9:44 am

    @Nate – you didn’t come here for a discussion. You came here to throw out the standard bunch of anti-vaccine myths, misrepresentations & misinterpretations – I’m sorry that you are unable to provide actual evidence or citations to back up your blind assertions, I’m also sorry that you are unable to deal with people critiquing your lack of evidence or bad science that you cite.

    Again, I believe you would find yourself right at home at AoA – because they demand ZERO evidence for their beliefs – something you are very familiar with.

    Like

  194. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    That is when we got the surprising diagnosis of flu. I never would have guessed that she had the flu.

    Don’t we need evidence for this science crusaders? Still no one from your group has taken the initiative to verify Christine Vara’s story. That’s disappointing to say the least.

    Like

  195. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    dingo,

    please provide evidence that wearing seat belts is similarly “safe”.

    Again false analogy. It’s akin to Chris claiming she has a finely tuned immune system despite having lupus, diabetes etc

    If you’re going to present an analogy make sure they have a common denominator.

    Like

  196. Tobin Jones
    December 30, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    @Nate – this bunch lives in a bubble and in their own fantasy lands. Their ego’s are HUGE and their attitudes are worse, you will never get anywhere with them. No amount of reason and logic will ever be accepted. They are condescending bullies but refuse to admit it. I believe they are very unhappy people in general and they like to spend their time here being negative to others.

    Like

  197. Tobin Jones
    December 30, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    @Gray – if you are asking and almost demanding me to get vaccinated then you have to assure me that the proper testing has been done and they are safe.

    Like

  198. December 30, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    @TJ – once again with the “evidence-free” posts & assertions. Amazing how you can say “we live in a bubble” when we are the ones offering up actual scientific literature, citations and facts.

    When someone actually offers up some evidence for consideration & doesn’t mind constructive criticism and allows for the fact that they may be wrong (any and all of us here are more than happy to look at new evidence) – but you’ve provided exactly none, then get all indignant when it is pointed out to you.

    You really don’t have a clue how science & medicine actually works, do you? Trudge back to AoA – where you are free to have “evidence-free” discussions in their bubble…..

    Like

  199. December 30, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    @TJ – you are a serious supporter of the “Nirvana-fallacy” – you have yet to provide a definition of “safe” and what would satisfy your own requirements for “safe & effective.”

    But, I have a feeling that you demand absolute perfection….which we all know is an impossibility – for anything for that matter (food preparation, cars, walking outside, etc, etc, etc.)

    Like

  200. December 30, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    @TJ – did you finally click on the link provided which showed the exact process by which pediatric flu deaths are confirmed? Or better yet, did you bother to read the quote that I posted from that website above?

    Seems we’re answering all of your questions / assertions with actual real evidence & you’re getting all indignant that we would dare to question you…..

    Like

  201. Tobin Jones
    December 30, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Again, nothing but insults.

    You know the definition of safe Lawrence.

    Like

  202. December 30, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    @TJ – again, nothing, no evidence or actual response to the question.

    As far as vaccine safety goes, vaccines are hugely more safe than the diseases they prevent. The rate of serious adverse reactions is extremely low – and there are robust safety and surveillance programs in place, not only in this country, but in many others as well, to continually monitor the safety and effectiveness of the current crop of vaccines.

    So, one last time – what is your definition of “safe and effective” TJ? Prove to us that you’re not demanding an impossible standard.

    Like

  203. Nate
    December 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    In the last 3 years, 42 deaths in children due to influenza vaccination were reported to VAERS. In addition, 692 children were hospitalized after receiving an influenza vaccination.

    In the last 3 years, 155 flu deaths in all age groups due to influenza vaccination were reported to VAERS. In addition, 2,398 people were hospitalized after receiving an influenza vaccination.

    VAERS is a passive reporting system, notorious for underreporting. Although some of these reports may not be related to influenza vaccination, to get an idea of the true number of people who may have been hospitalized or killed by influenza vaccination, you would need to drastically increase these numbers. If active surveillance were instituted, a more accurate account of morbidity and mortality due to influenza vaccination could be made.

    It is certainly as important to have compassion for these victims of “modern science” as it is to find ways to protect people from succumbing to disease.

    Like

  204. December 30, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    @Nate – it has already been pointed out to you (and others, many, many times) that there are “active” surveillance programs in place:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nvsn/default.htm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796522/

    Just to put a few out there to refute your claim. VAERS is inherently inaccurate because follow-up confirmation information is not included.

    So, please stop hanging your hat on VAERS – it isn’t what you think it is.

    Like

  205. December 30, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    @Nate – here is one more, internationally:

    http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/publications/aefi/en/AEFI_WPRO.pdf

    Like

  206. December 30, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    @Nate – and another very good resource, with good statistics on historical safety (and adverse reactions):

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/vaccine_safety.htm

    Like

  207. December 30, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    @Nate / TJ – and another very good link:

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm

    Like

  208. Tobin Jones
    December 30, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Safe:
    Free from harm or risk: UNHURT
    a : secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss
    b: affording safety or security from danger, risk, or difficulty
    c : not threatening danger : HARMLESS
    d : unlikely to produce controversy or contradiction
    e: not likely to take risks : CAUTIOUS
    f: TRUSTWORTHY, RELIABLE

    Like

  209. Lawrence
    December 30, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    @TJ – just what I thought. Nirvana Fallacy all the way.

    By that definition, nothing on this planet is “safe.”

    Like

  210. Lawrence
    December 30, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    @TJ – now, besides what Webster says, what is your definition of safe as it relates specifically to vaccines?

    Like

  211. Narad
    December 30, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Nate :
    In the last 3 years, 42 deaths in children due to influenza vaccination were reported to VAERS. In addition, 692 children were hospitalized after receiving an influenza vaccination.

    As usual, these are unimpressive on the causality front. Highly recommended is ID 410080, which reads in its entirety, “Hives, pucking, then DEATH”.

    Like

  212. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    I’m amazed vaccine crusaders are mocking their own science.

    Introduction

    The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) (1) of 1986 required health professionals and vaccine manufacturers to report to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services specific adverse events that occur after the administration of routinely recommended vaccines. Postvaccination adverse events and the time frames in which they must occur to qualify as being reportable under NCVIA are listed in the Reportable Events Table (2). The table is updated periodically as the vaccination schedule changes, new vaccines are introduced, and new vaccine-associated adverse events are identified. Vaccine-associated adverse event reports were previously collected separately by CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). CDC maintained the Monitoring System for Adverse Events Following Immunization (3) for vaccines administered in the public sector; FDA maintained the Spontaneous Reporting System (4) to accept reports from both the public and private sectors, although it was used primarily by vaccine manufacturers. These systems were replaced by the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) November 1, 1990 (5). Under the joint administration of CDC and FDA, VAERS accepts spontaneous reports of suspected vaccine adverse events after administration of any vaccine licensed in the United States (6–9).

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5201a1.htm

    Like

  213. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Tobin Jones:

    No amount of reason and logic will ever be accepted.

    Actually I would gladly accept you answering the questions that are asked with actual verifiable scientific evidence. That does not mean legal decisions nor self-reported surveys.

    Nate:

    In the last 3 years, 42 deaths in children due to influenza vaccination were reported to VAERS. In addition, 692 children were hospitalized after receiving an influenza vaccination.

    I am asking about the mortality to be at least that which has occurred among children this season, which at last point is sixteen. Now I must point out a couple of things:

    First, 42/3 = 14. In basic arithmetic and Euclidean, fourteen is less than sixteen.

    Second: It is still just VAERS reports, you need to provide the case reports after they have been investigated.

    Like

  214. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    argh: Euclidean space.

    Also, I am looking for evidence that the influenza vaccine has a greater risk than influenza that uses more than VAERS, but also includes the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project. For example:

    Signal identification and evaluation for risk of febrile seizures in children following trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project, 2010,2011. Vaccine 30: 2024,31, 2012.

    H1N1 and Seasonal Influenza Vaccine Safety in the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project. Am J Prev Med 41: 121,8, 2011

    Safety of trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in children aged 24 to 59 months in the vaccine safety datalink. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 165: 749,55, 2011

    Risk of rheumatoid arthritis following vaccination with tetanus, influenza and hepatitis B vaccines among persons 15,59 years of age. Vaccine 29: 6592,7, 2011.

    Impact of maternal influenza vaccination during pregnancy on the incidence of acute respiratory illness visits among infants. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 160: 1277,83, 2006.

    Compliance with the recommendations for 2 doses of trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in children less than 9 years of age receiving influenza vaccine for the first time: a Vaccine Safety Datalink study. Pediatrics 118: 2032,7, 2006.

    Health benefits, risks, and cost,effectiveness of influenza vaccination of children. Emerg Infect Dis 12: 1548,58, 2006

    Immunogenicity and reactogenicity of 1 versus 2 doses of trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in vaccine,naive 5,8,year,old children. J Infect Dis 194: 1032,9, 2006

    Values for preventing influenza,related morbidity and vaccine adverse events in children. Health Qual Life Outcomes 3: 18, 2005.

    Safety of the trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine among children: a population,based study. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 158: 1031,6, 2004

    Incidence of outpatient visits and hospitalizations related to influenza in infants and young children. Pediatrics 113: 585,93, 2004

    Like

  215. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Narad,

    usual, these are unimpressive on the causality front. Highly recommended is ID 410080, which reads in its entirety, “Hives, pucking, then DEATH”.

    Speaking of causality. I have a better idea though and is not cumbersome to accomplish: Demand Christine Vara to post the laboratory confirmation of her daughter’s influenza.

    Thanks in advance.

    Like

  216. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    I thought you were already enlightened, Chris.

    Like

  217. December 30, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    @Chris, et. al. – just ignore insane troll….

    Like

  218. Nate
    December 30, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Tobin, yes, it is true that several people on this forum are condescending bullies with very human frailties. I am not under any illusions about changing their beliefs or communicational patterns. I do welcome the opportunity, however, to share my own knowledge about vaccines and interpretations of the data. My sharing is for the many people who are sitting on the sidelines choosing not to get involved. They can sift through all of the posts and learn something from all of us. I won’t be here much longer since I have other obligations. Thanks for your contributions.

    Like

  219. Tobin Jones
    December 30, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Thanks for posting your info Nate….I have learned much as I am sure others have as well.

    Have a Happy 2013!

    Like

  220. Nate
    December 30, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    Regarding active surveillance programs, they are currently very limited in scope. The two links above to CDC sites are unimpressive, especially considering the CDC’s stance against rigorous science as I’ve already noted in their pseudoscientific immunization schedules.

    Regarding the claim that VAERS is inherently unreliable because follow-up confirmation information is not provided, it is unfortunate that follow-up information is withheld. I wonder if this is intentional so that pro-vaccinators can continue to claim that VAERS is unreliable. Nevertheless, VAERS is considered reliable enough to be used by the CDC, vaccine researchers, and other agencies for detecting various signals and trends. It is also unfortunate that the CDC won’t release the VSD database to independent researchers.

    Like

  221. Gray Falcon
    December 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Nate & Tobin: If I declared “I believe the two of you engage in sorcery, and must be burned to death for the good of us all,” would your raising any objection of any sort be a form of “condescending bullying”?

    Like

  222. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Nate:

    I do welcome the opportunity, however, to share my own knowledge about vaccines and interpretations of the data.

    And I have been anxiously awaiting your knowledge on the questions I have asked, repeatedly. I guess I am a bully for asking those questions, for providing citations that directly contradict your responses, and refusing to take VAERS data as fact (it needs to be analyzed).

    Nate and Tobin Jones, if there is one thing you should learn from this thread is that you cannot make claims without evidence. Do do not be offended when you are challenged to provide actual verifiable scientific evidence for any and all statements you make. If you think you are bullied because no one will believe you just because you said something, then don’t do that. Next time when you have a claim, provide the actual verifiable evidence at the same time. And that does not mean random websites, news stories, legal decisions or self-reported surveys (VAERS, internet polls, etc).

    Like

  223. December 30, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    @Gray – I think its about 50/50 that Nate & TJ are the same person (potentially sock puppets of one of the more notorious trolls around here).

    @Nate – you were the one that claimed there were “no” active surveillance programs….which I guess was a…”lie” perhaps?

    Since you have yet to provide any real evidence or citations, not to mention the same from TJ, anyone with half a brain, sifting through these comments, will see the evidence provided that shows vaccines are both safe and effective vs. the baseless rants of the anti-vaccine crowd.

    I welcome the comparison – because one is fact-based, while the other is not.

    Like

  224. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Here is an article about the accuracy of VAERS:
    http://thepoxesblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/vaers-as-evidence-of-vaccine-harm.html

    And another about a report to VAERS that a vaccine turned his daughter into Wonder Woman:
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/03/14/on-using-vaers/

    Like

  225. December 30, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    VAERS, used properly, is a good way to track overall trends and give researchers a place to start. Unfortunately, anti-vaccine individuals try to use VAERS as the “end-all, be-all” for adverse vaccine reactions, which it is not…..

    Like

  226. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Chris,

    Do do not be offended when you are challenged to provide actual verifiable scientific evidence for any and all statements you make.

    I couldn’t agree more. So we beg you Christine Vara, show us the “actual verifiable scientific (supercalifragilisticexpialidocious) evidence” that your daughter really had the flu.

    Thank you again.

    Like

  227. Lara Lohne
    December 30, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Tobin Jones :
    @Nate – this bunch lives in a bubble and in their own fantasy lands. Their ego’s are HUGE and their attitudes are worse, you will never get anywhere with them. No amount of reason and logic will ever be accepted. They are condescending bullies but refuse to admit it. I believe they are very unhappy people in general and they like to spend their time here being negative to others.

    I believe you are confusing us (skeptics who question everything until evidence is presented to support or disprove a claim) with people who refuse to accept what science has shown us in regards to vaccination and disease prevention over the past several decades, and even in the more recent years where vaccination rates had fallen, thus creating ‘pockets’ of unvaccinated individuals where resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases have been reported. The evidence is there, and it disproves your belief system. That is reason and logic, but denying science and deciding that it’s easier to believe it’s all a big conspiracy and cover up is not reason and/or logic, and actually is akin to denial and believing in fairy tales. If you believe we have bad attitudes, it is simply because we grow tired of hearing and refuting the same tired anti-vaccine arguments sometimes several times a week. Honestly, if you had to answer the same question, or correct the same misinformation over and over again, your patience would get a little short also. And in this case, the information we are providing to counter those fantastical arguments from the anti-vaccine segment of society (they have separated themselves, we have not separated them from us) are readily available for anyone who knows how to properly research the topic and search and read *reputable* sources of data. AoA and various other anti-vaccine blogs and web site cannot be considered reputable, they have delved too deeply into the realms of pseudoscience and have yet to even show that they are coming out.

    Like

  228. December 30, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    @Lara – for people like this, GoogleU is as far as they go when it comes to research. Places like AoA & Natural News are given more credence than actual published research and scientific literature, and of course, there is a worldwide conspiracy to suppress the “TRUTH.”

    There is no reasoning with some people…..

    Like

  229. Nate
    December 30, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    I never meant to claim that no active surveillance existed. I am quite aware of the surveillance systems. Often, when a new pharmaceutical product is introduced, active surveillance is applied for a short period. Even VAERS is not a 100% passive system because drug companies are sometimes required to apply active surveillance and these results are mixed in with the passive reports. However, there is no consistent active reporting for all vaccines and the serious adverse reactions that are associated with them. That is what I meant.

    Regarding the condescension and bullying found on this forum, I have made it clear that I do not believe that requesting evidence and challenging others’ ideas is bullying. I have made a list of the various ad hominem attacks and condescending remarks. If those of you who engage in this type of communication are unable to acknowledge your own emotional weaknesses or are unable to differentiate between your urge to demean vs. simply challenging ideas you don’t agree with, so be it.

    Regarding the “credence” that some of you claim to give to published research and scientific literature, this is only true when the research supports your pre-existing ideas about vaccines. You cherry-pick the studies that you accept as true. Thus, this process is a subjective exercise and you are not as rational as you believe. Since one-third of “valid” studies are eventually proven false or misleading, the scientific literature is clearly tainted.

    I have seen very little rationality on this forum. Irrationality is rampant from those of you who consider yourselves rational. You claim that anyone who believes vaccines are not medical marvels must be engaging in pseudoscience yet you are all practitioners and promoters of pseudoscience. For example, if the CDC recommends that 4 million infants every years must be vaccinated against eight different diseases at 2 months, 4 months and 6 months, but this recommendation (mandate) is not based on any type of scientific foundation, that is pseudoscience. You are promoting pseudoscience. The CDC is experimenting on our children and you are complicit. Is it any wonder there are so many VAERS reports?

    You have also deflected my question about whether any of you are associated with the pharmaceutical industry. You have shown mock outrage when the question was asked and claimed this is a common tactic of the anti-vaccine crowd, but no one dared to actually answer this question. I will leave it up to readers on this forum to draw their own conclusions.

    Like

  230. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Nate:

    You have also deflected my question about whether any of you are associated with the pharmaceutical industry.

    Because that is in itself an ad hominem attack, and has no bearing on whether or not the evidence I provide is valid. It is not “mock outrage”, it is just noting is a common and worthless tactic.

    What I am is a parent of a child who was harmed by a disease before there was a vaccine available. I have seen the permanent damage by seizures caused by illness. This is why I insist that you show the vaccines cause more damage than the diseases.

    Like

  231. December 30, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    @Nate – you’ve been singularly unable to provide scientific evidence that supports your assertions (not to mention TJ, who really has provided absolutely nothing).

    As to how recommendations are made for the Pediatric Vaccine Schedule:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm?s_cid=rr6002a1_e

    To even say there is “no scientific foundation” shows your ignorance as to the process for recommendations & why the schedule has changed over time as new information is made available.

    Since you return to the Pharma-Shill gambit again, for myself, I have no connections to the Pharmaceutical industry & my sole goal is to correct the various anti-vaccine myth-makers and uneducated individuals that spread misinformation, lies, and misrepresentations about vaccines (of which, you Nate have done quite a bit).

    We ask only for real evidence and proof – which anti-vaccine individuals seem to be able to provide very little, if any.

    Like

  232. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Nate, more about the how silly the Pharma Shill Gambit is when it comes to vaccines:

    I asked a question of Ms. Brenton, and later asked you to answer it. I never did get a response from either of you. Could you please try to answer it, it only involves opening a document and reading a table:

    I have a very simple question for you: Please open this pdf document, go to page 30 and look at the table. What number is to the left of the word “Vaccines”, and what does it mean?

    Like

  233. December 30, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    @Nate – you claim that vaccines are harmful…outside of VAERS, can you point to a single reputable source that shows that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases they prevent?

    Also, can you explain why the incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases has decreased from 95 – 100% once mass vaccination became available?

    Lastly, using the sources I cited above, you are able to get a very good idea of the nature of the known adverse reactions to vaccines & the rate at which they occur – as you can see for yourself, the rate of serious reactions is as low as ZERO or greater than 1 in 1mil – which is far better than the rate at which individuals suffer severe reactions from the diseases that vaccines prevent.

    This isn’t conjecture, this isn’t blind guessing – this is actual science that has been studied for decades (by a variety of governments, institutions and researchers) and confirmed. If you have information to the contrary – please post it up for consideration.

    We are more than happy to examine all evidence – but you’ve provided none to the contrary. I prefer to make medical decisions based on facts, not what Google tells me.

    Like

  234. December 30, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    @Chris – you mean the table that shows that spending on vaccines represents less than 2% of the overall spend for drugs in the US in 2010?

    Yet we have figures available that show that treating the various diseases that vaccines prevent would be hugely more profitable?

    I laugh every time someone tries to convince us that prevention is more profitable than treatment – not even by a long-shot…..given that recent history in Europe has shown that almost 25% of measles-infected individuals required hospitalization, it shows that prevention is preferable than the millions, tens of millions or even hundreds of millions that would otherwise be spent on hospitalizations, should VPDs make a comeback here in the US.

    Like

  235. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Exactly. I even asked Nate about the hospitalization rates, and he completely ignored it. I even provided a link to the plot and explained what color line I wanted him to look at.

    And in that same question he never answered who pays compensation for those who are actually injured and killed by influenza (the disease).

    I know how much it costs for hospital care, a bit too much (my son’s heart condition included at least three 911 calls to our house, two trips to the emergency room, a stay in a local hospital and finally surgery at a specialty clinic out of state). I also remember the ambulance ride and trip my son had to emergency room as a toddler from his seizures while he had a now vaccine preventable disease. And that was not cheap (oh, and ambulance costs have gone up lots in the last twenty years).

    So, I am baffled why he thinks popping Vitamin D supplements would be cheaper and more effective than preventing the disease with a once a year vaccine (which costs about $25). Or how putting kids in the hospital with respiratory support because of influenza is safer than a flu shot.

    Like

  236. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Comment Policy:

    •vulgar or abusive language;
    •personal attacks of any kind;
    •unsupported accusations;

    •offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    •spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    •marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Like

  237. Lara Lohne
    December 30, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    Nate :
    You have also deflected my question about whether any of you are associated with the pharmaceutical industry. You have shown mock outrage when the question was asked and claimed this is a common tactic of the anti-vaccine crowd, but no one dared to actually answer this question. I will leave it up to readers on this forum to draw their own conclusions.

    I am not affiliated with the pharmaceutical industry, nor any other medical and/or government establishment. What I am is a survivor of growing up in an anti-vaccine family and have suffered through diseases, watched my siblings suffer through and have myself sustained permanent damage as well as one of my sisters.

    I am also the mother of six children and could not bear the idea of watching them suffer through any disease that has the potential to kill them and permanently damage them when a vaccine was available to prevent it. Watching my older four suffer through chicken pox, prior to the vaccine being available was hard enough. I feared for my oldest child’s life while she was sick, because her fever was so high and she was so ‘out of it’ and my third born got a serious infection in his ear from a pox that became infected and had I not gotten him to urgent care right away for treatment, the damage could have been significant.

    I also have a child with autism, but he is the only one of my children who was not vaccinated on schedule. I feel I have a moral obligation to share the truth regarding the science and safety of vaccinations, particularly after knowing how devastating the diseases they prevent can be. Not only the significantly higher risk of damage and death, but the suffering through it to begin with. Why would anyone want to watch their child suffer like that? To me, that is contrary to the role of being a parent, to do everything in our power to keep our children safe and healthy so they can grow to be strong, happy, intelligent and productive adults.

    Like

  238. Lara Lohne
    December 30, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    FYI Nate; not all studies done are of equal caliber. It takes reading the study (not only abstracts) and understanding the science used in the study to know whether or not the study is ‘valid’. Many studies done trying to prove vaccines are dangerous, have been proven fraudulent, flawed, data was misinterpreted and in many cases they were using correlation as proof, when all that means is two events happened to coincide. Like someone has said before, there are many other things that would have happened at the same time (full moon, high tide, season change, the list goes on), but that doesn’t mean any of them have any bearing on each other. That is why so many people for so long (and even some still today) believe astrology has merit, when clearly, since it is based on the Sun revolving around the Earth and the Earth being the center of the Universe, it does not.

    Like

  239. George
    December 30, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    @Lara – you say, “I also have a child with autism, but he is the only one of my children who was not vaccinated on schedule.”

    Please remember to state that your child was vaccinated at birth, 2, 4, and 6 months, otherwise, it appears a bit dishonest.

    Like

  240. George
    December 30, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Also, some advice Lara, I believe people would read what you’ve got to say if you shortened your comments.

    Like

  241. December 30, 2012 at 10:37 pm

    @George – so which sock-puppet are you today?

    Like

  242. December 30, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    @George – I believe people might read your comments if you actually had something to say.

    Like

  243. Lara Lohne
    December 30, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    @George, my son was actually not vaccinated at birth. He was jaundiced so did not receive his birth dose hep b but received the first at his 2 month well baby visit. He was vaccinated at 2, 4 and 6 months of age. He did not receive any additional vaccinations until after he was evaluated as significantly developmentally delayed and had begun Early Intervention (just over 2 and a half years). Either way you slice it, he was still not vaccinated on schedule. And to refresh your memory, my son was showing distinct differences from my older children, from birth. Even though he was physically developing normally until 14 months of age when he began to regress and his development plateaued.

    So he is the only one of my children who was not vaccinated on schedule, and the only one of my children who has autism. And really, the two have nothing to do with each other, because there are many other differences between my son and my older five children that are more likely to be a contributing factor to his autism then vaccines, but the anti-vaccine people use their anecdotes to show cause so thought I’d share one of my own also, that is contrary to what they are claiming.

    And if I recall, Lawrence, it was Joe and Steve Micheals who seemed to take such offense at my choice of words months and months ago and felt the need to personally attack me and try to make claims for me that were incorrect. So it’s one of two options there.

    Like

  244. December 30, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    @Lara – ignore him. Not worth the electrons the words are printed with.

    Like

  245. Hippocrates
    December 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    Chris,

    It’s hard to speculate but still I’ll give it a thought. Since there wasn’t an available vaccine at that time and because of your ardent search of acquired immunity, the child could have been exposed intentionally to natural infection. Don’t get me wrong but there are parents who deliberately expose their kids to chicken pox. How do we know you didn’t expose your child purposely to infectious diseases?

    Like

  246. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Comment Policy:

    •vulgar or abusive language;
    •personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    •offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    •spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    •marketing copy that promotes services or products

    Like

  247. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    @Lara – If you are not trying to be dishonest, then why do you go out of your way to specify that your child was NOT vaccinated on schedule and yet still has Autism? Also, you said you didn’t know for sure if your son received Hep B at birth because you were out of it. I’ll bet he did get it.

    @Law – Looks like you are reading my comments. Ignore me? Why – I only clarified that Lara’s son did indeed have been vaccines and at a very young age, and then let her know she should shorten her comments so that people would read them all of the way through. Do you feel that is insulting her Law? If you want insults, just scroll above to Nates list of insults he has received, now those are insults.

    Like

  248. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:34 pm

    @Chris – looks like a question not an accusation. Why don’t you just answer the question instead of posting the comment policy over and over?

    Like

  249. December 30, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    @George – because insane troll isn’t asking a “question” so much as using the opportunity to make a personal attack on Chris……

    And again, who’s sock puppet are you today? Now that’s a question.

    Like

  250. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Lara, you say “He was vaccinated at 2, 4 and 6 months of age. He did not receive any additional vaccinations until after he was evaluated as significantly developmentally delayed and had begun Early Intervention (just over 2 and a half years). Either way you slice it, he was still not vaccinated on schedule.”

    So he definitely had many vaccines….at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, then took a break until 24 months and got some more vaccines. But you know for sure that vaccines had nothing to do with his Autism. Wow.

    Like

  251. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Because it is a baseless accusation. I have a child with medical issues, it would be stupid to intentionally infect him with something that infected almost every baby/toddler and sent several to the emergency room. I also contracted the infection. It is a baseless accusation.

    So, George/Joe/whatever, you get to answer the question I asked the first time Thingy/”Rational Antivax” made that claim: post the date and exact address that my son was infected.

    Because I sure have no idea where he got the infection. Perhaps you and the one accusing me of infecting him do!

    Like

  252. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    This is a question, “How do we know you didn’t expose your child purposely to infectious diseases?”
    Is Chris afraid to answer it?
    My name is George Mathus and I am nobody’s sock puppet, whatever that means.

    Who’s sock puppet are you Law?

    Like

  253. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    By the way, “George”, it is pretty clear that “Hippocrates” is also “Rational Antivax”, who was banned as Th1Th1, and commonly called “Thingy” in reference to Cat in the Hat characters “Thing1” and “Thing2.” And that is not a baseless accusation, but known due to her repeating the same accusations and phrases like “infection promoter.”

    Like

  254. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    Chris, why would I care?

    Like

  255. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    By the way, George, “, “How do we know you didn’t expose your child purposely to infectious diseases?” is a baseless accusation.

    Like

  256. Chris
    December 30, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    George, if you don’t care stop make excuses for Thingy.

    Like

  257. December 30, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    @George – actually, it is the hundreds of research studies that show no link between autism & vaccines, so as far as that goes, it isn’t even an issue.

    For insane troll, it has years of history ignoring reality, attacking parents of autistic children and otherwise bad behavior to its credit. The fact it has had to adopt numerous sock puppet identities to avoid the ban hammer is typical….

    Like

  258. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Are you an Autism expert Lawrence?

    Like

  259. George
    December 30, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    There is plenty of evidence supporting that there is a connection between vaccines and Autism. And no, I won’t provide links..so please don’t ask. Oh yeah, I am entitled to my opinion.

    Like

  260. December 31, 2012 at 12:02 am

    @George – then what is your point, if you won’t provide your evidence?

    http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

    Here is a selection of the science that refutes the link between vaccines and autism.

    Like

  261. December 31, 2012 at 12:04 am

    @George – and I am free to show scientific evidence that your opinion isn’t worth a hill of beans.

    Like

  262. George
    December 31, 2012 at 12:08 am

    Think what you will about my opinion Lawrence, I don’t care.

    Like

  263. Hippocrates
    December 31, 2012 at 12:09 am

    Chris,

    You said the “young and healthy will die more readily” in case of a pandemic because their “healthy and robust immune system over reacts and creates too much inflammation, killing them”. Are you now saying you are stupid for intentionally infecting your child who you knew will not be killed because of his predisposing medical problem?

    Furthermore, if you’re going to compare the death rates between natural infection and vaccination, make sure you are prepared to prove that deaths due to natural infection were intentional, otherwise you’re the one with the baseless accusations.

    Do not do unto others what you do not want others to unto you.

    Like

  264. George
    December 31, 2012 at 12:09 am

    BTW….the link you provided doesn’t have much….I wouldn’t use that one in the future to make your point.

    Like

  265. December 31, 2012 at 12:10 am

    @George – I’ve just shown that your opinion is incorrect, so I don’t care what you think.

    Like

  266. December 31, 2012 at 12:16 am

    So, let’s get back on topic – looks to be a bad & early flu season this year, so I would recommend taking advantage of the good vaccine to flu match and get vaccinated – both for yourselves and your loved ones.

    Like

  267. December 31, 2012 at 12:37 am

    Oh, and one last link that shows George’s opinion is wrong, incorrect, and misguided:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

    Again, back on topic – get vaccinated for the flu, the life you could save, could be your own.

    Like

  268. George
    December 31, 2012 at 1:11 am

    Those links are for the MMR only and most of them are over 10 years old. Nice try.

    Like

  269. Gray Falcon
    December 31, 2012 at 1:16 am

    George, do you believe that your actions are honest?

    Like

  270. December 31, 2012 at 2:28 am

    @George, you have just revealed yourself to be a sock puppet of Joe. You will continue you pick apart my story for your own pleasure, but I am not going to respond to you, because I already have responded to you and you are still deciding to believe I have said something other then what I did. That being the case, it is clear you are only here to start a fight and I have enough drama in my life without getting it from random strangers on the internet. I have nothing more to say to you, Joe.

    Like

  271. Lara Lohne
    December 31, 2012 at 2:33 am

    And for the record, the only real ‘autism experts’ are the ones who have autism. Only they know truly what it’s like and only they truly can tell us what they need from us, if we’d just take the time to listen. And this is off topic anyway because this post is about flu, not autism.

    Like

  272. December 31, 2012 at 6:58 am

    @Lara / Gray – ignore George. He’s gone completely off topic & is just trying to cause trouble.

    Like

  273. Huh
    December 31, 2012 at 10:22 am

    “There is plenty of evidence supporting that there is a connection between vaccines and Autism. And no, I won’t provide links..so please don’t ask. ”

    Huh. A person who really believed in a link between vaccines and autism would be eager to share evidence, don’t you think? Even Joe McCarthy said that he’d eventually get around to providing evidence for his claims,..

    Like

  274. December 31, 2012 at 11:19 am

    @huh – my thoughts exactly.

    Like

  275. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    @ Larry I asked for scientific proof that the CDC’s childhood immunization schedule is safe. The CDC recommends (mandates) vaccines against eight different diseases at 2, 4, and 6 months of age. These vaccines are administered simultaneously (at the same doctor visit). Four million infants are exposed to the CDC-recommended schedule every year. Therefore the safety of this procedure should be proven in scientific studies so that we can confirm that the synergistic effects of administering so many vaccines at one time is not causing short-term or long-term adverse reactions.

    You provided a link to a CDC (ACIP) report on the childhood immunization schedule to support your contention that the CDC’s immunization schedule is based on sound science. I read that report. Here is the only statement in that report addressing these concerns: “Experimental evidence and extensive clinical experience provide the scientific basis for administering vaccines simultaneously.” That’s it! No citation, no evidence, no proof. The CDC simply made a hollow statement.

    Now, let’s be honest. In your post, you made the following statement: “We ask only for real evidence and proof — which anti-vaccine individuals seem to be able to provide very little, if any.” So, I am asking why you support a lack of evidence — pseudoscience — from the CDC and vaccine industry but demand it from others? Where is the consistency? All I see is hypocrisy.

    Like

  276. December 31, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    Another anecdote here, but all four of us got the seasonal flu vaccination this year. The two tots are now down with a mild version of the flu (at least that’s our armchair diagnosis) today, but I’m also still thankful we got the vaccination. It could have been so much worse–plus, we could have unwittingly passed it, through being asymptomatic, to vulnerable persons while we were traveling this holiday season. In short, thanks for the post, Ms. Vara!

    Like

  277. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Here is an interesting study showing that annual influenza vaccinations could make children more susceptible to dangerous pandemic strains. By vaccinating children every year, authorities are preventing them from developing natural immunity that could provide cross-protection to more severe strains.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19879807

    The lead author published several follow-up studies showing that annual vaccination interferes with T-cell response weakening the child’s protection against strains that are a real concern.

    Like

  278. December 31, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    @Nate – there is a huge amount of information out there, if you only bothered to look:

    http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=744177

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/index.html

    Plenty of links there – and a lot of information which describes exactly how the Schedule is created, maintained, and changed, based on a plethora of information.

    One only needs to go into PubMed to find hundreds of studies related to vaccine safety, along with population studies which have shown no difference in neurological outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations (in fact, the biggest difference is the prevalence of VPDs in the unvaccinated populations).

    Like

  279. December 31, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    @Nate – that’s not a study, that’s a comment posted on another study. In fact, if you read the comment, it is simply conjecture (a lot of may’s and might’s) with no actual evidence to say it is applicable to humans.

    And based on further reading, it seems that the research into a more “Universal” flu vaccine would alleviate these types of concerns, since the method of protection would be longer-lasting and cover the broad range of flu virus strains.

    Like

  280. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    @Larry That’s an unacceptable response. Providing links to how schedules are created is not equivalent to actual studies confirming the safety of the schedule. Vaccines were tested individually but not in combination. You cannot mix drugs without expecting synergistic reactions. The CDC is experimenting on our children and apparently you find this experimentation acceptable.

    Like

  281. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Read the studies by Bodewes. It’s not conjecture. By forcing children to be vaccinated, pro-vaccinators are actually denying these children natural immunity to more dangerous strains. Once again, this is more evidence that our children are simply being experimented on. Furthermore, a universal flu vaccine is highly unlikely given the frequency and diversity of mutations.

    Like

  282. dingo199
    December 31, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Hippocrates :dingo,

    please provide evidence that wearing seat belts is similarly “safe”.

    Again false analogy. It’s akin to Chris claiming she has a finely tuned immune system despite having lupus, diabetes etc
    If you’re going to present an analogy make sure they have a common denominator.

    Claiming my query is a false analogy doesn’t just make it so, Hippo. In fact it is a perfectly suitable analogy – the wearing of seatbelts is recommended (nay, even mandated – wow!) as a prophylactic measure because it has been shown to prevent more harm than it causes. Nobody has rejected their use because of faux concern-trollishness about their “safety”.

    Now, perhaps, since Nate is not going to answer, you or one of your other socks might do as I asked, and define what you all mean by “safe” in the context of giving vaccines?

    Like

  283. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Nate, read all of the studies I posted here. Those eleven studies beat your cherry picked cites. And still waiting to see the definitive study that shows the influenza vaccine causes greater mortality, and remember no giving us raw VAERS data.

    Also, I am still waiting for the answers to the questions here. I even linked to a graph, and told you what color line to look at.

    Plus, I have run out of links, but you have not told us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines” on page 30 of the document I linked to in Comment #234

    Like

  284. December 31, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    @Nate – given the recent successes in understanding the commonalities between the different flu strains & our ability to further tailor antigens to cover the common features of each strain, the likelihood of the development of a “Universal Flu vaccine” is extremely high.

    More evidence that vaccinations are safe:

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/05/24/peds.2009-2489.abstract

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/FAQ_Safety.pdf

    Like

  285. dingo199
    December 31, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Nate :Read the studies by Bodewes. It’s not conjecture.

    You will have no trouble then in citing peer-reviewed clinical studies demonstrating that vaccination against influenza HAS led to increased infection with more “dangerous” strains of flu then, will you?

    But you can’t do that, because Bodewes was waxing hypothetical.

    And again, can you tell us your definition of “safe”, so we know how it applies to other areas of medicine and life?

    Like

  286. December 31, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    @Nate – getting back to the schedule recommendations, by the very descriptions of the process, there are a variety of resources used (clinical studies, adverse reaction reports, etc) in combination to get to the final recommendations (and they are reviewed on a yearly basis). So, for you to say that the schedule is based on “no evidence” is a complete crock – since studies such as these are most certainly considered:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23241989

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23077849

    Like

  287. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    I suggest that we do not let Nate pull this thread off topic into “schedule recommendations”, but stick to the actual topic. I suspect that since he will not, or just cannot, answer our questions that he is deliberately diverting the conversation.

    Nate, have you looked at the rates of influenza hospitalization plot and determined the second highest population? Do you think it is okay for that population to so sick they need hospital care with respiratory support? They are also the same population which are tested for the virus.

    Like

  288. December 31, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    @Nate – and here is one more:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22874850

    There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of studies related to vaccine safety – individually & part of combinations of vaccines that are part of the review process to determine the appropriate Pediatric Vaccine Schedule – besides the large body of scientific work, there is also consideration of adverse reactions, collection through VAERS and the other active surveillance programs, not to mention the FDA regulated clinical trials that all vaccines must pass through, and post-release surveillance programs utilized by the FDA as part of their regulation of vaccine production and deployment (again, also including information provided by the World Health Organization as part of the Worldwide vaccination and disease eradication programs).

    If one singular study was relied upon for schedule recommendations, I would be extremely skeptical of the underlying science. But, luckily for us, that is not the case & the various working groups look at the entire body of science before making any additions or changes to the schedule. One only needs to look at the 95 – 100% reduction in vaccine preventable diseases (incidence) and the extremely low number of serious adverse reactions to judge that the Vaccine Program and Schedule are safe and effective.

    At the end of the day Nate, you’ve chosen to believe that dozens of governmental and health care organizations, not to mention hundreds of thousands, if not millions of health care professionals are involved in some kind of conspiracy to suppress vaccine harm or overstate vaccine effectiveness.

    PubMed certainly speaks for itself, as does the overall success of the vaccine program – whereas you are unable to show anything to the contrary….

    Like

  289. December 31, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    @Chris – sorry about that, Nate was heading down the Rabbit Hole & I wanted to head him off at the pass. I am still struck by the overall recommendations of the Cochrane Collaboration, which was to continue research into more effective vaccines, while still stressing that the flu vaccine, in itself, was the safest vaccine currently available (based on the extremely low number of adverse reactions reported).

    Like

  290. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    One of those more effective vaccines is a universal influenza vaccine that would not require a yearly antigen update. There is active research in that field, including using specialized greenhouse plants (as in the kind that photosynthesize) instead of eggs.

    Like

  291. Risa
    December 31, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Great comments Laura, Barbara, and Tobin! The U.K. Daily Express just published an article saying that there were ten deaths there last year from the “flu jab,” up from 18 for 2008 to 2010. I know I”ll never get a flu jab! And I never have to worry if it will cause the flu or not. I might get the flu, and be sick in bed for several days, but at least I don’t have to worry about getting seizures, paralysis, or death from the jab.

    Ten years ago, it was considered dangerous to give pregnant women the flu jab. It was considered unnecessary to give it to healthy children, since it was so seldom dangerous in them. Nothing about the flu has changed since then, just the desire of the pharma industry to see how far they can monger enough fear to make people line up for the jab.

    Like

  292. December 31, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    @Risa – how many people (confirmed) died of the flu or related complications this past year in the UK?

    Like

  293. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Risa, now you get to answer the questions that Tobin and friends refused to answer.

    It was considered unnecessary to give it to healthy children, since it was so seldom dangerous in them.

    Then why did over 280 children die from influenza just a couple of years ago, and why have sixteen died this year. Do tell us exactly how many kids the influenza vaccine kills per year, with actual data, not a newspaper article (which you did not link to), nor raw VAERS data.

    Nothing about the flu has changed since then, just the desire of the pharma industry to see how far they can monger enough fear to make people line up for the jab

    Perhaps you can figure out how to open up a pdf file, go to page 30 and look at a table. It seems that neither Ms. Brenton or Nate could figure out how to do that.

    So, please open up this fairly short pdf file, go to Page 30 ,look at the table and tell us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines. Then explain what it means.

    You can also tell us exactly how it is cheaper to treat influenza either by staying home for a couple of weeks and missing work, or being hospitalized than to get a $25 vaccine each year. Do document your answer with something along the line of:

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

    Or just confess who you are sock puppet of.

    Like

  294. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Now I know why she did not include the link:
    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/367719/Ten-deaths-linked-to-having-flu-jab

    It says:

    Health officials stress the deaths and side-effects are “suspected”.

    Regulations now demand any case where a jab could have had an adverse effect has to be reported.

    The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency said the increase may be because more people are logging their concerns rather than an actual rise in adverse reactions.

    A spokesman for the MHPRA said: “A causal association with the influenza vaccines has not been established for any of these cases.

    “The vaccine is largely given to those at high background risk of morbidity regardless of vaccination and coincidental medical events are to be expected.”

    Basically, in the UK the influenza vaccine is rationed to those who are more likely to have complications, and those are “suspected.”

    So, Risa, just go and answer my questions.

    Like

  295. Hippocrates
    December 31, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    dingo,

    Claiming my query is a false analogy doesn’t just make it so, Hippo. In fact it is a perfectly suitable analogy – the wearing of seatbelts is recommended (nay, even mandated – wow!) as a prophylactic measure because it has been shown to prevent more harm than it causes. Nobody has rejected their use because of faux concern-trollishness about their “safety”.

    Wait a minute. I think you have misconstrued the meaning of prophylaxis and I bet you’re the only one among your peers who uses that word when you actually mean primary infection a.k.a. “priming”. When you’re purposely, deliberately and intentionally instilling live poliovirus into the mouth of these otherwise uninfected children, are you actually giving them prophylaxis or promoting primary infection? Secondly, the harm that arises from vaccination is intrinsic, that is, VAPP and VDPV are intended outcome of primary OPV vaccination, vaccine-induced primary varicella infection is a prerequisite for shingles, primary measles vaccination not only would cause measles but also SSPE etc.

    Prophylaxis? NO. Infection-promoting? YES. And when you are an inherent infection promoter, you will always be on the unsafe side. You keep insisting that vaccines are safe is grandiose delusion.

    Like

  296. lilady
    December 31, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    @ Chris: Rats! You beat me to it. I *wonder* why Risa didn’t provide that link, heh, heh.

    How about this link, which provides some updated information about the severity of circulating strains of influenza, and the numbers of confirmed deaths from influenza?

    http://www.influenzavirusnet.com/breaking-flu-news.html

    Still ignoring the science-ignorant trolls and their sockies.

    Like

  297. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    Comment Policy:

    •vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    •unsupported accusations;

    •offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    •spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    •marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Like

  298. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Comment Policy:

    •vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    •unsupported accusations
    ;
    •offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    •spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    •marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Like

  299. lilady
    December 31, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    @ Chris, Lawrence, Gray Falcon, Leigh, dingo199, Christine, etal…Happy New Year to you.

    Like

  300. Narad
    December 31, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Are you familiar with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs? Please tell me why do you think that eating something that you know contains live poliovirus is a physiological need?

    I see that Th1Th2 is now reduced to trying to change identities within a single comment thread, all to offer nothing new.

    Oh, how humiliating.

    Like

  301. lilady
    December 31, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @ Narad: You’ve got that wrong. Th1Th2 a.k.a. Thingy and her boatload of sockies cannot be humiliated.

    She’s been banned or blocked from each and every science blog that she posts on…yet still manages to slither back under a new ‘nym. Pathetic.

    Like

  302. December 31, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    I’m curious how one actually reasons that “ten deaths last year ” is “up from 18 for 2008 to 2010”? Did I misread that? Funny how no citation was provided for the data showing that is actually a correct statement. Where is this article talking about UK deaths from the ‘flu jab’?

    Like

  303. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Lara, I found it and quoted it extensively. It is data from the UK version of VAERS.

    Like

  304. Narad
    December 31, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    She’s been banned or blocked from each and every science blog that she posts on…yet still manages to slither back under a new ‘nym. Pathetic.

    I’m not aware of its being banned from RI under it’s real incarnation. The trick with the Maslow routine is that one chunk of the hierarchy is decidedly missing, and if the top one is present, it’s a pretty sorry commentary.

    Like

  305. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Regarding the Cochrane Collaboration, Dr. Kennedy who directed the project made the following comment regarding influenza vaccination:

    “We just cannot understand how you can vaccinate millions of small children in the absence of scientific evidence that the vaccines make any difference.”

    Here is an interesting study from the Archives of Internal Medicine [http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspxarticleid=486407], which published a comprehensive study analyzing immunization data from 33 influenza seasons. The authors concluded:

    “We could not correlate increasing influenza vaccination coverage…with declining mortality rates in any age group. We conclude that observational studies substantially overestimate vaccination benefit.”

    Like

  306. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Here is the correct link to the study: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=486407

    Like

  307. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    What year was that particular Cochrane study? Again, why do you mention something without the full reference? It is like you are trying to hide something. Also, a 2005 study is a bit long in the tooth for influenza research. That is one study that made them realize that others needed to be vaccinated to increase herd immunity, and helped spur on research into a universal flu vaccine.

    Nate, how come you are not answering my questions? You have not shown that the vaccine is more dangerous than the actual disease, you have not told us which population group is the second largest that gets hospitalized with flu and have not told us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines” in that pdf document. Are you finding it difficult to find the answers, even for the two that I gave you very simple links to click on?

    For the rest of you: I saw this article (from the end of the year “This Week in Virology” podcast): The Vaccine Controversy. It says:

    We found that vaccinating the elderly failed to cut hospitalizations; therefore, doctors hypothesized that children are responsible for spreading most flu to older people. In 2010, a large study of elementary-school-based flu vaccine in Bell County, Texas achieved 50 percent vaccination rates of students and protected people of all ages from the flu (the so-called “herd immunity” effect). Similar findings were seen in a Canadian study. Incorporating this information, the CDC recommended in 2010 that all people over 6 months old should be vaccinated. (To guard infants, we now know that vaccinating pregnant women produces immunity in their newborns.)

    It also mentioned some historical context:

    In the meantime, Americans should learn from the death toll of flu-vaccine skepticism in Japan. It was the only industrialized country to have mandatory universal flu vaccine of children, which helped produce herd immunity, The program fell victim to skeptics and was repealed in 1994. The result? The New England Journal of Medicine reported that flu deaths rose by 40,000 per year

    Like

  308. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    Regarding the CDC immunization schedule, this is not an entirely new topic since influenza vaccination is recommended to infants starting at 6 months of age, when up to eight additional vaccines are simultaneously administered.

    All of the posters on this forum who have responded to (or ignored) my concerns about the schedule have failed to provide rigorous scientific justification — such as a PubMed study — for administering the recommended cocktail of vaccines to infants. I will take that as an admission that no such study exists. I will make my point on this topic one last time since I think it’s an important point.

    I have read several reports showing how the immunization schedule is determined. Convenience (parents having to make fewer trips to the pediatrician), reduction of pain (multivalent vaccines requiring fewer injections), and spacing (for ideal timing of boosters) are common considerations. Safety is not a factor.

    The FDA licenses individual vaccines based on clinical trials showing their individual safety profile. The FDA rarely requires testing to confirm that the vaccine will be safe and effective when combined with other vaccines (or pediatric drugs the infant may be taking). The FDA never required testing to confirm that giving eight vaccines simultaneously to two-month-old infants is safe. The CDC never required scientific studies to determine whether the immunization schedule that they recommend to all infants is safe. Yet, the CDC is on record acknowledging that when pharmaceutical drugs are combined, their synergistic and antagonistic effects can result in increased and unexpected deleterious health consequences. So the CDC knows that combining vaccines is more dangerous than not combining vaccines but this didn’t stop them from recommending eight vaccines to infants at 2, 4 and 6 months of age without the rigorous scientific evidence that it’s safe. That is a real definition of pseudoscience.

    The rabid pro-vaccinators on this site can remain in denial and spin that however they wish, but it is hypocritical for them to demand rigorous scientific evidence from non-vaccinators while defending an immunization schedule that has no solid scientific foundation. It is also hypocritical for pro-vaccinators to reject VAERS as a valid source of evidence while simultaneously using VAERS to support their contention that vaccines and/or the vaccination schedule is safe.

    Like

  309. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 11:15 pm

    Regarding the study of vaccinated children protecting the community, NEJM published a similar study [http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa055414]. They vaccinated children in some schools to provide herd immunity. There were fewer “influenza-like symptoms” in households with children in the intervention schools. However, intervention school households — both children and adults — had significantly higher rates of hospitalization. In addition, children who received the flu vaccine had a “statistically significant increase in influenza-like symptoms” after vaccination.

    Like

  310. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    I’m not hiding anything. In 2004 through 2006, the Cochrane Collaboration did a series of reviews on previous influenza vaccination studies. The reviews showed substantial shortcomings. Here is a link to the Dr. Kennedy quote and some additional information about one of the reviews, found in this paper entitled “Oxford Study — No Evidence Flu Vaccine Works in Infants.”

    http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/103/9/

    Here is another quote from the paper: “The Lancet review of all relevant trials…found no evidence to support the CDC position.”

    Like

  311. Nate
    December 31, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    Regarding the possibility of developing a universal flu vaccine, that is highly unlikely. Researchers thought they could develop an AIDS vaccine and only succeeded in creating the disease in several volunteers.

    Like

  312. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    Nate:

    Regarding the CDC immunization schedule,

    It is still off topic.

    Two key phrases in that 2006 study (which is still quite old):

    “In the intervention schools, live attenuated influenza vaccine was offered at no charge to all healthy children 5 years or older in the fall of 2004”

    In other words, it was voluntary.

    A total of 2717 of 5840 students (47%) in intervention schools received the vaccine after parental consent (range, 30 to 56%)

    Less than 50% is not a herd immunity level.

    However, the post hoc analyses comparing households with children who were vaccinated with those with children who were not vaccinated did not reveal a statistically significant difference in the number of hospitalizations for either children (0.20 per 100 persons for the vaccinated group vs. 0.10 per 100 persons for the unvaccinated group) or adults (0.15 per 100 persons for the vaccinated group vs. 0.15 per 100 persons for the unvaccinated group).

    Probably because of the lack of herd immunity…

    Finally, at the vaccination rates achieved in this study, the effects of indirect protection from influenza at the community level (herd immunity) may have occurred at the household level, but not at the school level.

    You have proven that herd immunity is important.

    Like

  313. Chris
    December 31, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    Nate:

    I’m not hiding anything. In 2004 through 2006, the Cochrane Collaboration did a series of reviews on previous influenza vaccination studies.

    It is still quite old, and I am about to serve dinner so I do not have time to bring up the more recent studies (which I have posted before). Good night.

    Like

  314. Nate
    January 1, 2013 at 12:00 am

    Regarding the NEJM study, the most significant finding is that the children and adults in the vaccinated households had significantly higher hospitalization rates, and the vaccinated children had a “statistically significant increase in influenza-like symptoms” after vaccination.

    Like

  315. Chris
    January 1, 2013 at 1:30 am

    Nate, when you read the entire paper that was not most significant finding. The term for what you are doing is “cherry picking.” I noticed you missed the quote I posted from that paper that said:

    However, the post hoc analyses comparing households with children who were vaccinated with those with children who were not vaccinated did not reveal a statistically significant difference in the number of hospitalizations for either children (0.20 per 100 persons for the vaccinated group vs. 0.10 per 100 persons for the unvaccinated group) or adults (0.15 per 100 persons for the vaccinated group vs. 0.15 per 100 persons for the unvaccinated group).

    When you compare the total number of persons with or without a certain variable, what may have seemed at first glance to be different may actually not have been. Since the vaccine rates at the schools that offered vaccination voluntarily were less than 50% (much less than herd immunity), it is not a surprise that there was not a difference in influenza causing hospital care.

    By the way, Happy New year if you are on the American East Coast. I have a few more hours. I am trying to watch a sewing instruction DVD, but I am annoyed at the presenter’s “Valley Girl” accent. It is a statement, not a question!

    Like

  316. January 1, 2013 at 9:01 am

    @Chris / Gray / Nova / Lilady / Lara / Christine / Dingo – Happy New Year!!!!

    (and anyone else I might have missed!!!)

    Like

  317. dingo199
    January 1, 2013 at 9:09 am

    @Nate…. “not ignoring anything”???

    Then let’s hear what you define as “SAFE” in the context of giving a vaccine, and comment on the supposed safety of, say, car seatbelts using the same criteria.

    Avoiding the question won’t make it go away you know. You can’t demand studies showing the “safety” of vaccines unless you tell us exactly what you mean by safe.

    Like

  318. January 1, 2013 at 9:45 am

    @Dingo – given the long and thorough safety record of the flu vaccine over the decades, the biggest difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated is that the unvaccinated individuals get the flu at a much higher rate……

    Like

  319. dingo199
    January 1, 2013 at 11:29 am

    To everyone (maybe even the multiple antivaccine sockpuppets) – Happy New Year

    Like

  320. dingo199
    January 1, 2013 at 11:31 am

    @Nate

    Nate :
    Researchers thought they could develop an AIDS vaccine and only succeeded in creating the disease in several volunteers.

    Complete BS from you (as usual)

    Like

  321. January 1, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    @dingo – I’m amazed at the ability of these trolls to dive head-first into the “Nirvana Fallacy.”

    The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the perfect solution fallacy.

    Example: “If we go on the Highway 95 at four in the morning, we will get to our destination exactly on time because there will be NO traffic whatsoever.”

    By creating a false dichotomy that presents one option which is obviously advantageous—while at the same time being completely implausible—a person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. The choice is not between real world solutions and utopia; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic possibility and another which is merely better.

    Or better yet, the “Perfect Solution” Fallacy:

    The perfect solution fallacy is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists and/or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented. This is a classic example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes.

    It is common for arguments which commit this fallacy to omit any specifics about exactly how, or how badly, a proposed solution is claimed to fall short of acceptability, expressing the rejection in vague terms only. Alternatively, it may be combined with the fallacy of misleading vividness, when a specific example of a solution’s failure is described in emotionally powerful detail but base rates are ignored.

    Examples:

    Posit (fallacious)

    These anti-drunk driving ad campaigns are not going to work. People are still going to drink and drive no matter what.

    Rebuttal

    Complete eradication of drunk driving is not the expected outcome. The goal is reduction.

    Posit (fallacious)

    Seat belts are a bad idea. People are still going to die in car crashes.

    Rebuttal
    While seat belts cannot make driving 100% safe, they do reduce one’s likelihood of dying in a car crash.

    It does seem that many of our current crop of sock puppets and trolls fall neatly into these two Fallacious arguments.

    Like

  322. Hippocrates
    January 1, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    Lawrence,

    I’m amazed at the ability of these trolls to dive head-first into the “Nirvana Fallacy.”

    I think the bottom line of this argument is your persistent identification of vaccination as being “prophylactic” which of course, is not true. If it’s not “prophylactic”, then it’s not going to be a part of the solution and therefore Nirvana fallacy does not apply.

    Like

  323. January 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Happy New Year to everyone! May this new year lead to better understanding and greater cooperation throughout the world in everything we do, regardless of personal beliefs because the big picture is much more important that our tiny, little, individual ideas and in the end, really, we all kind of need to ‘get over it’ so to speak *GRIN*.

    Like

  324. dingo199
    January 1, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    @ Hippo/thingy troll…
    I’m totally unconcerned whether you define vaccination as deliberately infecting people or not.
    That is quite irrelevant. The point is that it reduces the risks associated with pathological disease, and it is immeasurably superior to the alternative of not infecting/vaccinating and letting someone catch the full blown, natural disease.

    PS I thought thingy troll and it’s various sockies were banned….?

    Like

  325. Chris
    January 1, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Thingy takes advantage of holiday times when Ms. Vara is busy to post her nonsense. Recently she is claiming that any time a child gets sick, even from a non-vaccine preventable illness that it was the fault of the parent for purposely infecting them. Which is both ignorant, and a baseless accusation (and against the comment policy).

    Like

  326. January 2, 2013 at 10:24 am

    @Chris – I thought I would bring this up before the trolls did:

    http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/01/indiana-hospital-fires-8-workers-who-refused-flu-shot/

    These employees were aware of the requirement & why the shots were mandatory (patient-safety), plus I see very ambiguous reasoning behind the refusals – again, not surprised that more institutions are going in this direction, since it is also a major liability issue as well.

    I sure wouldn’t want to be treated by staff that hadn’t been vaccinated – especially if I was someone with a weakened or compromised immune system.

    Like

  327. Hippocrates
    January 2, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    dingo,

    I’m totally unconcerned whether you define vaccination as deliberately infecting people or not.

    People have been doing exactly that since he learned how to variolate. And then of course, comes Mr Jenner. The practice and principle are still alive today.

    That is quite irrelevant. The point is that it reduces the risks associated with pathological disease, and it is immeasurably superior to the alternative of not infecting/vaccinating and letting someone catch the full blown, natural disease

    The point is that you don’t have a point. You don’t let someone catch infectious diseases deliberately because that violates the principle of naturally acquired active immunity,

    Naturally acquired immunity occurs through contact with a disease causing agent, when the contact was not deliberate, whereas artificially acquired immunity develops only through deliberate actions such as vaccination.

    For example, since shingles is caused by an earlier exposure to VZV, the alternative is neither deliberate exposure to chicken pox nor vaccination let alone both exposures would cause primary varicella infection and reinfection. Do you have any problem with that?

    Like

  328. Hippocrates
    January 2, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Chris,

    Recently she is claiming that any time a child gets sick, even from a non-vaccine preventable illness that it was the fault of the parent for purposely infecting them. Which is both ignorant, and a baseless accusation (and against the comment policy).

    Take it easy Chris. You may wanna see this.

    http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

    Again, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

    Like

  329. Hippocrates
    January 2, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    I sure wouldn’t want to be treated by staff that hadn’t been vaccinated – especially if I was someone with a weakened or compromised immune system.

    If you were someone with a weakened or compromised immune system, you will not die as “more readily” as the healthy during a flu pandemic. Just ask Chris.

    Like

  330. dingo199
    January 2, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    Thingy/hippo troll said:

    You don’t let someone catch infectious diseases deliberately because that violates the principle of naturally acquired active immunity

    You really don’t have a clue do you thingy/hippo troll?

    I am so sorry you think the immune system responds according to some arcane, proposed “principle violations” that you decree.
    It just responds, regardless.

    The difference is that allowing a naturally pathogenic and virulent infection to occur will possibly kill you, whereas tricking the immune system “artificially” (by vaccination) will achieve the same result in terms of future protective immunity, but avert the risks of death that accompany the “natural” disease.

    Like

  331. January 2, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    @dingo – just ignore her. She doesn’t use the same vocabulary, same definitions or live on the same planet with the rest of us.

    Like

  332. January 2, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    Wow. Just… Wow.

    Like

  333. Gray Falcon
    January 3, 2013 at 12:18 am

    @Lara. What’s so surprising? These are all the exact same arguments she’s made before.

    Like

  334. Chris
    January 3, 2013 at 1:23 am

    Why was the Hippo post before Lara’s comment removed, and not the other. It is very confusing since we all know it is Th1Th2 (Thingy). Post #332 that she directs to me makes absolutely no sense. Though I am flattered that she thinks I am Derek Bartholomaus. I met him once, and he is awesome.

    Like

  335. January 3, 2013 at 3:03 am

    It’s not surprising at all Gray, just mind boggling that someone would be so ‘out there’ and not be aware of how far ‘out there’ they really are. I mean, people are institutionalized for less.

    Like

  336. January 3, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    The stranger could even offer them a treat
    so that the dog associates strangers with good things.
    In fact, they are famous all over the world because of the high quality of their products.

    All you need to do is reach them through their website.

    Like

  337. January 3, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Wow – the spam gets pretty strange around here…..

    Like

  338. January 4, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    I’m interested in how many people have gotten the flu each year that also had the flu shot/vaccine. Does anyone that this information? I don’t see that published anywhere that I can find. I know it’s not zero because I got the flu a few years back when I had the shot. And I’m NOT saying that the vaccine caused the flu.

    Like

  339. January 4, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @Scott – that is a very good question. I believe the estimates are available (I’ll check around and see what I can find) – and you’ll also need to take into account that not every instance of the “flu” is actually the flu, as it could also be a host of similar-type illnesses (classified as “flu-like”). Laboratory confirmation is normally available, but many people don’t either go to the doctor or end up in the hospital, so it can be hard to deliver results with the kind of accuracy we’d like to see.

    Overall, effectiveness is better in years with a good vaccine-virus match vs. one with a bad match.

    If I can find good numbers, I’ll post them for you. Thanks!

    Like

  340. lilady
    January 4, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    Sadly…

    The CDC Flu Surveillance site has been updated and has reported the deaths of two additional children from influenza, to bring the total pediatric influenza deaths to 18 for the 2012-2013 seasonal influenza season:

    http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf12/hepc/hepctrtart.htm

    Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality:

    Two influenza-associated pediatric deaths were reported to CDC during week 52 and were associated with influenza B viruses. One death occurred during week 48 (week ending December 1) and one death occurred during week 52 (week ending December 29). This brings the total number of influenza-associated pediatric deaths reported during the 2012-2013 season to 18. Additional data can be found at http://gis.cdc.gov/GRASP/Fluview/PedFluDeath.html.

    Like

  341. January 6, 2013 at 9:14 am

    @Scott – here is a good place to start, for historical data on flu seasons over the past decade.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/pastreports.htm

    Again, it can be hard to find really specific data on flu vs. vaccine / flu because of the multiple variables involved. Had a lot going on, so I haven’t been able to do as much digging as I would like.

    I’ll post up what I find, but I hope this helps.

    Like

  342. Hippocrates
    January 10, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    Gray Falcon once asked,

    “do you wish children to die of influenza?”

    Check this out.

    http://m.startribune.com/?id=186225331

    Did they Gray?

    Like

  343. Chris
    March 23, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Now over a hundred children have died from influenza, 90% of those did not get an influenza vaccine:
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/children-flu-deaths.htm

    Now my question that I posted earlier has changed: Just show that the influenza vaccine kills at least a hundred people a year by posting either a public health survey or a PubMed indexed article. Though I am surprised that something like that never hit the mainstream media.

    Like

  344. Christopher Haynes
    March 24, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    “This review also indicated that 60 percent of deaths occurred in children who were at high risk of developing serious flu-related complications”

    Like

  345. Gray Falcon
    March 24, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    @Christopher Haynes- So you’re saying we should vaccinate so that we can protect those who are at such high risks?

    Like

  346. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Mr. Haynes, what about the other 40%? And if one of those 60% was a nephew undergoing cancer treatment, would you be better at getting your annual flu vaccine? And a Tdap?

    So, Mr. Haynes, you get to answer instead of Nate: show us the evidence that any influenza vaccine kills at least a hundred people per year.

    Like

  347. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Gay Falcon…..if you are high risk and unhealthy, it is the persons or familys own decision not to get the flu shot. Sounds like that’s what many of the 40% did. How do you know that in their conditions their Doc didn’t tell them to hold off on getting the vacination?

    Like

  348. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    Mr. Haynes:

    How do you know that in their conditions their Doc didn’t tell them to hold off on getting the vacination?

    Which is why the family members should get vaccinated, to protect the vulnerable. The 40% were healthy, and it was unfortunate that their families did not get them vaccinated.

    Like

  349. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    Who said the family members weren’t vaccinated? Are you just making it up? Who said these kids even got the flu from their famly members?

    Like

  350. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    The only thing we know is that 90% were unvaccinated. If they could have been vaccinated, they should have been. There were 40% with no prior health issues who may have survived if they had been vaccinated.

    Now, if you have data that shows the influenza vaccine kills just forty healthy people per year, please present it.

    Like

  351. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    Oh…so now you are down to forty. That’s what I thought.

    I personally know three people who were injured from the flu vaccine. There is nothing else to know. It is ineffective and dangerous.

    Like

  352. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    I brought down to forty because you seem to think the 60% who had health issues are not worth dealing with. So, Mr. Haynes, what is your plan to protect children from dying from influenza?

    Like

  353. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    @christopher haynes

    [citation needed]

    Why should we believe you, when you have been proven a liar?

    Like

  354. March 25, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @Christopher – I’ve known at least three people who have died of the flu……care to articulate how you would prevent that from happening to others in the future? Better yet, how about pointing us to the VAERS entries for your “friends?”

    Like

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