Home > Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research > Helping Parents Navigate Immunization Information on the Internet

Helping Parents Navigate Immunization Information on the Internet

cdcimage3I have a young friend who had her first child two months ago.  We had been trying to get together for lunch the week she delivered her baby.  Yesterday, as we were texting one another, trying to reschedule, she explained that she was at the doctor with the baby for her well-check and a round of shots.

I didn’t even have to hear her voice to know the angst she might be feeling.  Yes.  Even parents who know the benefit of vaccines are not too keen on watching a needle go into their newborn baby.  And what’s worse is hearing them cry.  

So I quickly sent her some words of encouragement, and I acknowledged that she should be very proud of what she was doing to protect her baby.  The more I thought about it, the more I thought …. parents don’t get applauded for their vaccination decisions often enough.   

Hearing, Seeing and Believing

No matter how convinced a parent is about the importance of immunizations, they are probably somewhat familiar with the arguments of the vaccine critics.  Whether it comes in the form of a news story they read, a parent in their local play group, or even a complete stranger on the internet, they will inevitably hear someone attributing various chronic health problems to vaccines. Or someone who shares a story of an alleged vaccine injury. Or someone who simply believes it’s better to allow our immune system to fight off  diseases “naturally”.

It’s only human nature that these stories come rushing to the forefront at the exact moment the nurse is prepping the needle.  As they hear the cries from their once happy child, it’s understandable that parents experience a bit of uncertainty and doubt.  And let’s be honest.  For a first time parent, dealing with their first round of shots, this is all quite nerve-raking.

Yet, from the healthcare provider’s point of view, vaccinations are fairly routine.  They know how devastating these diseases can be.  They recognize how effective vaccines are in protecting children.  And they realize that these safe, well-tested vaccines offer minimal risk of serious side effects.  So while they are available to address parental concerns,  there is probably not adequate time during the office visit for a doctor or nurse to help parents understand all the science and safety behind the immunizations that is necessary to put them at ease.

This is why parents often find themselves in front of a computer googling well into the night.  Many times they are looking for answers to questions they hadn’t thought about at the time of the visit.  This is also when I hope parents are educated enough to understand how to evaluate health information on the internet.  Hopefully, they recognize the important differences between a website that offers well-documented, scientifically based immunization information, versus those websites that cherry pick information from outdated research, while also selling books, supplements and crazy conspiracy theories.

Getting Parents the Information They Need

One of the resources I often recommend to parents is the Vaccine Education Center of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.  They provide complete, up-to-date and reliable information about vaccines to parents in the form of videos, informational tear sheets, and information on every vaccine.  The site is helpful for parents who want to understand how vaccines work, how they are made, who recommends vaccines, when they should be given, if they are still necessary, and, most importantly, if they are safe.

It’s also important for parents to stay up to date on immunization news.  This can be done by signing up for the Vaccine Education Center’s monthly Parents PACK newsletter, by checking the daily news clips on the Vaccinate Your Baby website, or by liking the Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page.

A quick look just yesterday revealed several articles that I plan on sharing with my young friend.

First, there was a report that revealed that whooping cough cases in the U.S. this year are the highest they’ve been since 1959.  Then another article with the encouraging news that 44% of pregnant women received a whooping cough booster shot in the last two months.  Since I know that my friend got her Tdap booster in the hospital, these articles will simply help to reinforce the decisions she has made to immunize herself and her baby.

There has even been some news regarding ways in which we may be able to help ease the discomfort of shots in children.  For young babies there is something known as the 5 S’s technique, which Dr. Swanson explains in great detail on her blog Seattle Mama Doc.   Then yesterday I read about some new research findings that suggest a sugar solution given just prior to the injection can help calm babies faster.  And just this morning I came across this little gem “Buzzy”.  A cold, vibrating pod, designed by a mom to look and sound like a really big bee, which helps take the sting out of shots.  I expect these articles to also be of interest to my friend.

The reality is that as long as vaccination remains a choice, there will be some parents who choose not to vaccinate.  However, we should be grateful that the overwhelming majority of parents do vaccinate , and we must do our best to applaud these parents and ensure they get the credible information they need to continue with their decision to vaccinate.

Of course, there are lost of wonderful resources listed here on Shot of Prevention, but please feel free to let us know which resources you like to suggest to parents and why?

  1. Indiana Nurse
    December 13, 2012 at 11:57 am

    I prefer thoroughly researching all optional medical procedures before ever consenting to them. It is very important to dig deep and look at all sides. I was not always like this though. When I was younger I simply trusted doctors and did not take the time to research anything. I learned a very had lesson that i live with everyday. My advice to all concerning vaccination is to first of all request a package insert for the product and thorougly investigate it line for line. Look up all that you are not sure about. Study every ingredient for long term safety data in humans. Calculate amounts of toxic ingredients in each vaccine to get your total innoculation at one time. You would think the “experts” would have already done this but in the past, they have not. Never rely on someone else to do anything. Look at consumer reviews. For vaccines this would be VAERS data. It is a place where negative reactions after vaccination can be posted. Keep in mind only a very small percentage are ever reported but it is a place to start. Never be bullied into not vaccinating or into vaccinating. It is your choice and should not be rushed. Check out your sources of info for financial ties. Know the risks vs the benefits. Above all, never vaccinate until you are 100% sure you know it is the right choice. You can not “unvaccinate”. My son was severely harmed by vaccines. I have met many other parents that report the same results as well. Even Congress is concerned about the lack of safety data on our vaccination program. Watch the Congressional hearing at C-Span. It is titled: Federal Response to Autism Rates. It is a must see when investigating vaccines. I wish all the wisdom to make these decisions. They are difficult. We will never vaccinate again as the risk is tremendous but every family has to make that choice for themselves. God bless.

    Like

  2. December 13, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    @Indiana Nurse – I’m surprised that you are unaware of the various post-use vaccination surveillance programs to track safety that have nothing to do with VAERS. There are huge numbers of safety studies and decades of research to show that the anti-vaccine myths are just that, myths.

    Like

  3. John Fryer
    December 13, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Hi Lawrence

    Can you point us to just one good vaccine surveillance programme that we can look at. The VAERS is a USA government run database much maligned by bloggers with no brains and picked up by people who think vaccines are 100 per cent safe. Most VAERS reports come from health professionals and the few from ordinary folk comes often from research from medical experts who have alerted people to look out for adverse vaccine events.

    IF a government run vaccine database is bad then why after 20 years has it not been improved?

    Most intelligent comments just lament that it only scratches the surface of vaccine problems.

    While vaccines are essential, the present system has not improved health as the USA health has slipped many places compared to other countries.

    Charles Richet showed the normal response to repeat vaccines is often anaphylaxis. The complete opposite of what a vaccine is designed for. Or the present vaccine policies.

    There are many records of vaccines and adverse effects that are completely confidential and the inserts with vaccines provide cold comfort. Some from England show the secrecy even in the face of deaths after vaccines. Roy Meadow on these committees investigating vaccine deaths and then going to court and prejuring himself that death after vaccines is an impossibilty.

    My own personal experience of vaccines is 100 per cent safety and efficacy. My own observations of others shows sometimes expected problems where doctors advocate vaccines despite warning signs down to death so long after vaccines that nobody would link the two events except to lament again that a previously healthy person dies from conditions known to be problems after vaccines.

    Nobody has the right to force medications on whole communities and the vaccine issue is just one of many where the state intervenes and then wonders why new diseases and increased unhealth is more and more found in our society.

    Today 47 per cent have preclinical signs of diabetes – up from zero – and the usual so many cases per 100 000 for illness rapidly disappearing to percentages. 470 000 cases of latent diabetes per 100 000 is not just high, calamitous or disastrous but a sign that it is past time we use ignorance as an excuse in medicine.

    My own past experience of ten years without medical problems, vaccine effects or dental visits would no do much good to a trillion dollar enterprise.

    Here in France we use on average 47 packets of medications each year at a cost of 550 euros.

    I make that a saving of 470 medications put to better use and a personal saving of 5 500 euros to date.

    Friends that have died after medical prescribed drugs is another contentious issue hotly denied by the medical profession.

    Can an industry with trillions of dollars at stake tell us the truth at all times or are there political statements made?

    My own experience is abnormal it seems unless people are actually consuming double and treble the figures given out?

    Like

  4. Gray Falcon
    December 13, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    John Fryer- Any evidence for your accusations?

    Like

  5. Chris
    December 13, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Mr. Fryer, there is the Vaccine Safety Database Project.

    And you state: “Today 47 per cent have preclinical signs of diabetes – up from zero.” Again, Mr. Fryer, please provide a citation for this claim. You have a reputation of just making things up, and it is because of this that one must be careful about what they read on the Internet. It turns out that there many like you who use argument from blatant assertion, including Indiana Nurse.

    Like

  6. December 13, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    @John – here you go:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nvsn/default.htm

    VAERS was designed as a “first” response database & all serious adverse reactions are followed-up upon by the CDC. The results of those investigations are not reported in VAERS (and this is clearly stated in the disclaimer on the VAERS website), but are included in the overall vaccine safety surveillance program.

    So, #1 – anti-vaccine activists are lying when they say there is no other program besides VAERS to track adverse vaccine reactions.

    Charles Richet did all of his research over 100 years ago – medical science has advanced a bit since then.

    Vaccines aren’t “forced” as you state – there are no 100% mandates for vaccines anywhere (at least in the US). Of course, children may not be able to attend school, but that is responsible public health policy to protect both those children & others who might not be able to be vaccinated (like the immune-compromised).

    As for indications of childhood diabetes, I would point out the increased overall obesity of children as the contributing factor – not vaccines.

    Like

  7. December 13, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    I created a science based google custom search engine for reliable vaccination information – so that parents could implicitly avoid the misinformation out there – it allows you to filter the results based on WHOApproved, Hospitals, Research etc. http://vaxfax.me

    Like

  8. December 13, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    @Colin – I LIKE IT!

    Bookmarked. Thanks!

    Like

  9. Lauren @ the VEC
    December 13, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Thanks for sharing our information with your readers. We try to address questions that parents have about vaccines with science-based answers. Because vaccines are given to healthy people, they have to be safe and effective. We hope readers with questions about vaccines will visit our site, http://vaccine.chop.edu, and review our question and answer sheets, http://vaccine.chop.edu/resources, and always feel free to email us if there is a topic we have failed to address.

    Like

  10. Chris
    December 13, 2012 at 2:30 pm
  11. Lara Lohne
    December 13, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    @Indiana Nurse I watched the congressional hearing on C-Span and was myself appalled that vaccines are still being discussed, particularly by people with nor medical training what so ever and are only picking on vaccines because they have been ‘wined and dined’ into it by activists at Safeminds, which is not an autism advocacy organization, but an anti-vaccine activist organization. I’m assuming this vaccine injury you claim your son has is in fact autism. How do you then explain the same percentage of cases of autism in the unvaccinated population? How do you explain all the research being find showing genetic causes? How do you explain the many millions and billions throughout the decades that have received vaccinations and have not developed autism? Your information is anecdotal at best, and completely and totally wrong at worst. VAERS is an inactive reporting database, there are a number of ‘reactions’ listed as having happened after vaccinations which have been attributed to something else. The VAERS data is only the jumping off point for the investigations into adverse reactions from vaccination. The final results of the formal and thorough investigations are not provided through VAERS, but are made available on the VIS which are given to parents with each vaccination their child receives. Vaccines don’t cause autism, scientific research for over a decade in multiple countries have proved otherwise. Just because a bunch of ignorant-to-science politicians disagree doesn’t make the science wrong.

    Like

  12. informedvaxer
    December 13, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    I think my facebook page is excellent. You cannot post a question on the Vaccinate your baby facebook page but you can on mine and you will get only a good, scientific answer. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Informed-Parents-of-Vaccinated-Children/236107336440146

    Like

  13. December 13, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    @informed – love the blog, I’ve bookmarked it. Keep up the good work!

    Like

  14. Wonder Girl
    December 13, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    @lara
    “How do you then explain the same percentage of cases of autism in the unvaccinated population?”

    Can you please provide proof of this statement? If it is true I would like it for my records.

    Like

  15. December 13, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    @WonderGirl – I’ll dig up the studies, but there have been several population studies, including one in Germany and another in Denmark that showed no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated autistic populations – also, a recent study in the UK found the rate of autistic adults to be almost identical to the rate of autistic children…..

    Like

  16. Wonder Girl
    December 13, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    @lawrence
    Thank you! I would love the studies.

    Like

  17. Lara Lohne
    December 13, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    To prevent my comment from going into moderation, I’m only posting links to two articles. There are many more that have been done though.

    http://www.aerzteblatt.de/pdf.asp?id=80869

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

    I’m off to get my son now!

    Like

  18. lilady
    December 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    @ Indiana Nurse:

    The Physicians Prescribing Information (package inserts) are available on line. So why would you “demand” a physician to give you that insert at the time of your baby’s doctor’s appointment? There are also “problems” with providing a highly technical, pages long, “package insert” for parents who do not know medical terminology and do not know the difference between reported and verified side effects/extremely rare severe adverse events – vs- “other” reports of side effects/severe adverse events (autism?) that have not been verifiable.

    Even if a nurse, who supposedly has the background to comprehend the contents of vaccine “package inserts”, there are a few nurses who have preconceived and wrong opinions about vaccines, the growth media, adjuvants, and excipients in vaccines and who have a belief in conspiracies, the frequency of anaphylaxis and blind trust in VAERS reports.

    Some of these nurses are unaware that the FDA requires pharmaceutical companies which manufacture medicines and vaccines to include each and every non-verifiable side effect/severe adverse event as part of the licensing process for every medicine and every vaccine.

    Some of these nurses are totally clueless about immunology, chemistry, human biology, virology, bacteriology and the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable diseases.

    I know that you must be just as shocked as I am about these ignorant-in-basic-science nurses, who are also ignorant about how each and every VAERS report is thoroughly investigated and each and every vaccine is continually monitored post licensing, through the various systems that other posters have linked you to.

    lilady, RN, BSc-Nursing, Retired Public Health Nurse Clinician/Epidemiologist

    Like

  19. Wonder Girl
    December 13, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    @indiana nurse
    Excellent advice!

    Like

  20. Wonder Girl
    December 13, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    @lara
    Thank you! I will give them a read when I have some time.

    Like

  21. lilady
    December 13, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    For Indiana Nurse and John Fryer (and all you other posters who don’t understand what the “Nurse” and John Fryer the chemist are banging on about Richet and anaphylaxis):

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/04/10/the-antivaccine-movement-aint-gonna-like/

    Fryer, your rants and screeds about medicine and vaccines are hilarious.

    Like

  22. Wonder Girl
    December 13, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    @lilady
    Is that the the link you meant to post?

    Like

  23. lilady
    December 13, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    @ Wonder Girl: Yes, that’s the link I meant to post. Scroll down to see Fryer’s first and subsequent posts:

    “John Fryer

    April 11, 2009

    1.7 MILLION USA children are autistic.
    And no one knows why?
    I think they do!
    The CDC know!
    The 2003 Pediatrics study by them admitted that one member was their current employee. He was in fact moved to a top job in a vaccine company and prevented from telling the TRUTH.
    His original data condemning vaccines have been lost, stolen or burned.
    But the CDC are happy to go along with increasing the number of autism cases by another million rather than admit for example that the work of vaccines pioneers like Charles Richet are correct and exact a 100 years later.
    In the same way the data has been LOST; so too the word ANAPHYLAXIS or death/injury from vaccines has been all but eliminated and replaced by the weasel word ALLERGY.”

    Like

  24. December 13, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    @lilady – you’d think, after almost 4 years, that Fryer would have at least something new to say, rather than the same-ole, same-ole. That’s the problem with these anti-vaccine people, they live in the past, on outdated and bad research, while the rest of the scientific community has moved on…..

    Like

  25. novalox
    December 13, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    @john fryer

    You do know that diabetes was existent since 1500 BC, since the time of ancient Egypt, when they described diabetes as a disease of “excess urine”

    Just another of your countless lies as a anti-vaxxer, how shameful,

    Like

  26. Vaccine Queen
    December 13, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    I am a vaccine nurse in Indiana and have been for 13 years. Before that I worked for 10 years in Pediatric ICU where I watched a 4 yr old die from chicken pox and a 6 wk old die from whooping cough. I also witnessed at least 30 children die from vaccine preventable meningitis. I am also a mother to child adopted from Russia . My child was born with hepatitis A antibodies. She received her first Hep A vaccine when she was 37 months old and 4 days later broke out in hives and had respiratory wheezing. We rushed with her to our doctor’s after hours clinic and they prescribed steroids and give her a shot of epinephrine. Because we had an intern see us at the clinic, he mistakenly wrote for the steroids q day not BID and 24 hours later my child’s lips swelled (looking very Angelina Jolie like) and she broke out in hives again. This time we sped to the ER. She was admitted overnoc and both the ER doc and our family doc swore it was from a virus. I think it is because her body still retained “memory” from the antibodies from her birth mom. Regardless of what the cause was, I filed a VAERS report as a PARENT. It was thoroughly investigated by the CDC in an hour phone call from them. We will never know for sure if it was a reaction. My point in all this being that she has since received all vaccines that she was eligible for and I considered having her receive the MCV4 vaccine when she was just 7 just for the protection. I am a strong supporter of vaccines and know that they are safe. The consequence of not vaccinating after all I have witnessed in my job is to horrible for me to allow my daughter to go thru. Vaccines don’t kill (or harm) people….diseases do! Why don’t all you people who are so anti vaccine check the stats on how many people die from vaccine preventable deaths and report back to me…I am sure you will be amazed at those numbers!

    Like

  27. Carrie
    December 13, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    Thanks, Indiana Nurse, I’m very sorry your son was vaccine-damaged. Many of us who post here are parents of vaccine-damaged children, including me. We watched with relief the congressional hearings two weeks ago, we know the vaccines are very dangerous. As Joe said some time ago, if your child was damaged by vaccines, you’ll get no love on this site, and that’s the sorry truth.

    Like

  28. Please
    December 13, 2012 at 11:02 pm

    Vaccines don’t kill or harm people?

    Have you been living under a rock?

    Like

  29. Chris
    December 13, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    Carrie:

    we know the vaccines are very dangerous.

    Citation needed. Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Then provide the same level of scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

    As Joe said some time ago, if your child was damaged by vaccines, you’ll get no love on this site, and that’s the sorry truth.

    Actually that is not true. What you will find is that anyone who makes a claim is asked to provide proper scientific documentation to support their statements. You made a claim that vaccines are dangerous, so you must support those claims.

    Like

  30. Please
    December 13, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Please prove to me that vaccines don’t harm and don’t kill people.
    Please prove to me that vaccines are safe.
    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies.

    Like

  31. Thomas
    December 13, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    Carrie :
    Thanks, Indiana Nurse, I’m very sorry your son was vaccine-damaged. Many of us who post here are parents of vaccine-damaged children, including me. We watched with relief the congressional hearings two weeks ago, we know the vaccines are very dangerous. As Joe said some time ago, if your child was damaged by vaccines, you’ll get no love on this site, and that’s the sorry truth.

    You mean that the Autism hearings were really for “vaccine injuries”? No wonder they ignored the autistic people who testified. They probably ignored the letter I wrote too. I’m just the parent of an autistic child, after all.

    Like

  32. Lara Lohne
    December 13, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    Carrie, I think you are over stating the number of people who post here who believe their children were vaccine damaged. There is you (cia parker again no doubt) indiana nurse, and joe. That isn’t many, it’s three and not even half of the regular posters and just because you change your name and say the same thing over and over again doesn’t mean you are more then one individual and since you don’t actually ever change your story, it’s pretty evident that you are one person repeating the same lines over and over again under a different guise.

    You do not speak for the vast majority of parents with disabled children who actually know that vaccines had nothing to do with it, and in some cases know their child was in fact injured because of a VPD. We do not know that vaccines are very dangerous, we know the opposite. You believe them or wish them, to be very dangerous because it helps remove the guilt or whatever it is you feel, from yourself as to why your daughter has brain damage. It isn’t from a vaccine, which is particularly evident when you say it was the birth hep b that caused encephalitis that eventually caused her autism because the reactions you claim she had have never, ever been reported as a reaction to this particular vaccine. And you have proved it was not vaccine injury multiple times by making claims and then telling us that you self diagnosed her with that same vaccine injury and also with her autism.

    @Please, did you have something meaningful to add to the discussion or are you only here to make noise? Anti-vaccinationists don’t need any more cheerleaders, they have that job fairly well covered by themselves. If you have something meaningful to add, please be ready to provide reputable citations to the study that supports your claim and/or statement.

    Like

  33. Chris
    December 13, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    Joe/Carrie/Cia/Whatever, I have never made those claims. You have made claims that vaccines are dangerous, with the implication that they are more dangerous than the diseases. It is up to you and your friends to provide actual evidence.

    One thing I will provide for you is some data on measles. First I will present the change of the affects of measles around fifty years apart (from Appendix G of the CDC Pink Book):
    Measles:
    Year_Cases_Deaths__Year___Cases____Deaths
    2000____86___ 1____1950__319124____468
    2001___116___ 1____1951__530118____683
    2002____44___ 0____1952__683077____618
    2003____56___ 1____1953__449146____462
    2004____37___ 0____1954__682720____518
    2005____66___ 1____1955__555156____345
    2006____55___ 0____1956__611936____530
    Total___460____4_________3831277___3624

    Do you want to go back to the “good ol’ days” of the 1950s? Can you guarantee to us that measles is 100% safe? Can you tell us is the MMR vaccine has caused at least 300 deaths per year in the last decade in the USA?

    Now I will present some census data. What you need to do is tell us what happened in the 1960s to reduce the numbers of measles cases by 90%. Here you go:
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

    Like

  34. lilady
    December 13, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    @ Vaccine Queen: I believe you misspoke when you stated:

    “I am also a mother to child adopted from Russia . My child was born with hepatitis A antibodies. She received her first Hep A vaccine when she was 37 months old and 4 days later
    broke out in hives and had respiratory wheezing.”

    If your adopted daughter was “born with hepatitis A antibodies” (IGG antibody), she would have been immune and I don’t believe past exposure/recovery from hepatitis A in the birth mother provides immunity to her child. And, there is no chronic carriage of the Hepatitis A virus.

    I believe you a confusing the birth mother’s immunity to hepatitis B virus from an actual prior infection and actual recovery which would be seen by testing the birth mother for the presence of hepatitis B Surface AB and a positive Core AB. If the birth mother had immunity from hepatitis B immunizations then her Surface Ab would be positive and her Core AB negative. Neither of these serum markers would be seen in her infant. If she was a chronic hepatitis B carrier and she was not tested for the presence of hepatitis B surface antigen and the baby became infected with the virus because she did not receive HBIG and the first hepatitis B vaccine within 12 hours of birth, she was at great risk to become infected…as evidenced by a hepatitis B positive Surface Antigen blood test.

    I’m sorry if your child had an untoward reaction to an unknown vaccine, but in the absence of further proof that this unknown vaccine caused an urticaria reaction, we cannot be certain what caused an apparent allergic reaction to something.

    What is the nature of your child’s vaccine injury?

    Like

  35. Thomas
    December 13, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    Here’s one study of interest http://www.aerzteblatt.de/pdf.asp?id=80869 – it compared the health of unvaccinated and vaccinated children in Germany, and found that vaccinated children were much less likely to suffer from the diseases they were vaccinated against than unvaccinated children were – but were no more likely to suffer from any other disease or condition. I hope that reassures you. This study is indexed by Pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21412506 as requested.

    Like

  36. Please
    December 13, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    Please….Chris, you stated that vaccines don’t harm or kill people, It is up to you to prove, please. If you can please.

    Like

  37. Please
    December 13, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Please Thomas…..that does not prove that vaccines don’t harm or kill….please.

    Like

  38. lilady
    December 13, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    No but it proves that “Please” is another attention-seeking sockie.

    Ignore.

    Like

  39. Please
    December 13, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    Because you can’t prove it.

    Like

  40. Chris
    December 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Please/Joe/Cia:

    Please….Chris, you stated that vaccines don’t harm or kill people, It is up to you to prove, please. If you can please.

    Link to that comment. I have never said anything of the sort.

    Like

  41. Naomi Williams
    December 14, 2012 at 12:11 am

    Great article!

    I’ve only got one gripe with it – why isn’t the nurse in the picture wearing gloves?? I was taught in nursing school to always wear gloves when giving shots or doing anything that could possibly put me in contact with a patient’s bodily fluids.

    Like

  42. lilady
    December 14, 2012 at 12:36 am

    Hi Naomi: OSHA regulations do not require the wearing of gloves while giving immunizations:

    http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_general.asp

    Under “Administering vaccines”

    “Is it necessary to wear gloves when we administer vaccinations?

    No. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulations do not require the wearing of gloves when administering vaccinations, unless the person administering the vaccine is likely to come into contact with potentially infectious body fluids or has an open lesion on their hand. If a healthcare worker chooses to wear gloves, he or she must change them between each patient encounter.”

    Like

  43. Rational Antivax
    December 14, 2012 at 1:02 am

    Infection promoters do not have to wear gloves but they have Band-aid. Haha.

    Like

  44. December 14, 2012 at 6:50 am

    @Please – since none of here have ever said such a thing, you are promoting a “straw man” argument. As for safety studies, all you need to do is go to the PubMed website & do a simple search for “vaccine safety” and you will get a plethora of research that has been done on the subject.

    You can also check out the CDC Vaccine Safety Surveillance program:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nvsn/default.htm

    Where adverse reactions to vaccines are tracked and studied, along with additional papers on the research on vaccine safety that has been conducted.

    So, rather than just spout typical anti-vaccine lies, you should actually do a bit of research first.

    Like

  45. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 11:44 am

    Here’s the quote…..”Vaccines don’t kill (or harm) people….diseases do! ”

    Also, stating the vaccines do kill and do harm is the truth. Where is the lie?

    You have a very distorted view of reality.

    Like

  46. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 11:48 am

    I asked for the link. I don’t remember typing those words. That would be a Nirvana Fallacy. If I did type them, there would be context.

    Try again, this time with the actual link to the quote. For instance the link to your comment is:
    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/12/13/helping-parents-navigate-immunization-information-on-the-internet/#comment-18543

    Now I want to see that kind of evidence, failure to provide the direct will be evidence that you are making it up..

    Like

  47. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Missing word: “failure to provide the direct link will be evidence that you are making it up..”

    More missing words: “If I did type them, there would be some context in the full quote“.

    Like

  48. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 11:51 am

    @Please- That wasn’t Chris. That was “Vaccine Queen”, who was deliberately misstating our position. Take note that nobody spoke in support of her. The lie is not that vaccines can cause harm, it’s claiming that not being vaccinated is less dangerous.

    Like

  49. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Thank you, Gray Falcon, I missed that. I wonder if “Vaccine Queen” was some kind opposite “Poe.” I really did quite get it, so I did not know how to respond.

    Of course, everything she said was just an anecdote, so there is no way to know if she just made it up. Or that it was actually “Please” trying to find a way to get back by posting a vaccine Nirvana Fallacy.

    Like

  50. December 14, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    @Please – that’s not a quote – where did Chris say that, exactly?

    Like

  51. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    You did not ask me if Chris said it, you said nobody here had ever said such a thing.
    You all have a real problem with reading comprehension. Maybe you need to learn to listen better.

    Like

  52. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Please don’t twist what I say Gray Falcon.

    “it’s claiming that not being vaccinated is less dangerous.”

    I never made this claim.

    Again, reading comprehension. Go back to school Gray.

    Like

  53. December 14, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    @Please – if you are going to quote an Anti-vaccine person to attack a pro-vax position, when no one on the pro-vax said has made such a statement, you are being dishonest.

    Like

  54. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Vaccine Queen is pro vaccine. Do you need to read her comment again Lawrence?

    Vaccine Queen, are you pro vaccine? How does it feel to have your own turn on you?

    Like

  55. Eva
    December 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Lawrence,
    I was looking for Th1’s posts on RI last night, I love to read them, they’re clever and very cheeky. I found this post, apparently by you:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/09/anne-dachel-takes-on-bill-moyers/
    If it is you, then you said that you believe that the reason that autism is so much more prevalent now than it used to be (aren’t you guys supposed to all be on board the “it’s just better diagnosing, rates haven’t really gone up” ticket?), is that all the vaccinated children who used to die of vaccine-preventable diseases now survive to become autistic, that they were tainted from the beginning.

    If this hypothesis were true, it would mean that as recently as ten years ago, there were thousands of children dying of, what? pertussis? measles? and that they form the enormous cohort of thousands of children in the U.S. that wouldn’t have had autism had they lived ten years ago, they would just have died. Have you looked at Victor Lotter’s 1966 survey of Middlesex Co., England? Autism prevalence of 4.1 per 10,000 (1 in 2,400). In Wisconsin in 1970, Darold Treffert found 0.7 per 10,000 children born in the 1950s and 1960s; using a broader definition that included onset later in childhood, he reported an overall rate of 3.1 per 10,000. E. Fuller Torrey in 1975 did a prospective study following 30,000 children from birth, 14 of them eventually developed infantile autism, which was a rate of 4.7 autistic children per 10,000. This rate of 4.7 per 10,000 was almost identical to those of Lotter and Treffert. Victor Lotter in 1978 went to Africa looking for autistic children. He thought there would be a comparably high rate among them. He screened mentally handicapped children in institutions, and thought since all of the over 1300 children he screened, a lot of them would have autism, since all of them were mentally handicapped to start with. Only 9 of the 1,312 mentally handicapped children he saw in nine cities were autistic, a rate of 1 in 145 of institutionalized children, a much lower rate than he expected to find. Almost all of the autistic children were from “elite” families who were educated and often had lived abroad (and had vaccinated their children).

    So, now the official rate in the U.S. is one in 88 children, many states and school districts report rates as high as one in thirty. Even at the official rate of one in 88, that means that 113.64 out of 10,000 children now has autism (in the U.S., rates are lower elsewhere, and a great increase from 4.1 per ten thousand). That means that 109 out of ten thousand children died of VPDs in recent decades if your hypothesis of the onion layers is correct.

    Can you cite any studies which support your thesis of that many children dying in epidemics in recent memory? I guess you just discount out of hand the many thousands of parental reports of children developing normally, walking, talking, socializing, until they suddenly regressed shortly after getting a vaccine, sometimes the same day.

    Like

  56. December 14, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    @Eva – thanks for bringing up that post – it wasn’t just directed at Autism, so much as the myriad of chronic diseases that we see because we are living longer – an interesting hypothesis, to be sure – coupled with the incredible changes in our diagnostic criteria for what would constitute the “autism spectrum.”

    Recent studies in England have shown a prevalence of autism in the Adult population to almost exactly match the prevalence of autism in the child population – meaning that there is no “epidemic” of autism – we are just getting a whole heck of a lot better at identifying people at a young age that exist on the spectrum.

    Are you also aware that the percentage of children given a diagnosis of “mentally deficient” has decreased in almost the same proportion that the percentage of autism diagnoses has increased?

    And I believe it still holds true, that if a child dies of a vaccine preventable disease, before they manifest signs of a chronic illness, then the true measure of the chronic illness within the population will be inaccurate.

    Again, I was stating an opinion – not a fact. There is a difference – I believe it does make for an interesting hypothesis that childhood mortality rates may have masked more chronic conditions (both in prevalence and rate), but I’d like to see it put to the test before making any assertions as to whether or not it would be considered correct.

    Like

  57. December 14, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    @Eva – please point me to your citations regarding the “many thousands” of parents that have made such reports?

    Can you also account for the drastic changes to the DSM criteria for Autism? How does this effect the overall total?

    Like

  58. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Please/Joe/Cia/Eva:

    You did not ask me if Chris said it, you said nobody here had ever said such a thing.

    Stop lying. You specifically accused me of saying those words. I asked for a link (just like I posted here), and you failed. I never said it, and you cannot get out of that lie.

    And Eva looks like a Thingy sock, with her strawman argument.

    Like

  59. Carie
    December 14, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Also, L., any thoughts on why our infant mortality was just about best in the world (meaning lowest) in 1950, before the routine shots were given to most children, but is now forty-something, worse than that of any First World country but Poland and Slovakia? Some think that it is because we give a lot more shots to infants than they do in most other countries. How would this be supported by your onion skin theory? Do western European countries have droves of children dying of VPDs instead of getting autism?

    Like

  60. December 14, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    @Please – it would be helpful if you would actually let us know who you are quoting & in what context.

    I will say, that it is a fact that a small minority of individuals do suffer reactions to vaccines – none of the regular posters here will deny that fact. But, the nature of the reactions is normally extremely mild, with serious reactions being exceedingly rare (1 in 1mil to 1 in 10mil individuals).

    There is even a list of reactions that are automatically compensated by the Vaccine Court – but the science does not exist that autism is linked to vaccines. Population studies have been done in multiple countries that show that autism is no more prevalent in vaccinated populations than in unvaccinated populations (Germany & Denmark for example).

    Why don’t you list the studies that show any link, ones that haven’t been discredited as fraud, for example?

    Like

  61. December 14, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    @Carie – I guess another sockpuppet of someone, actually there has been a huge upswing in measles cases in France over the past year (over 25,000, with almost a quarter requiring hospitalization).

    I would also point out that most Western Countries have Universal Health Care systems, which we do not – with over 40mil people without insurance or access to adequate medical services, I would say that’s a likely cause of our infant mortality rate (not to mention that we count infant mortality using a broader definition than most countries as well).

    It isn’t all about the vaccines Eva / Carrie – Occam’s Razor applies here as well.

    Like

  62. December 14, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    @Carrie – yes, “some think.” But when you do the research and actually understand the science, you’ll see that “some” are wrong.

    Like

  63. December 14, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    @Chris – the fact that Eva / Carrie finds Insane Troll’s posts to be “fun & cheeky” tells me all I need to know about that individual…..obvious mental illness is neither fun, nor cheeky.

    Like

  64. December 14, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    @Eva / Carrie – so, what do you think would happen in a retrospective study, if we applied, say the DSM-IV criteria for autism to populations 50 years ago?

    Like

  65. Diana
    December 14, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/09/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-967-impossible.html
    Take a look at this extremely thorough study done twenty-five years ago, using the same diagnostic criteria as now, which found a smidgen of the autism present now.

    Thomas Falicetti did a study involving parents of autistic children, of mentally retarded children (an identifiably distinct group), and of normal children, to see if the parents had evidence of toxic exposures that might have caused their children’s autism. Eight out of 37 parents of autistic children had sustained occupaitonal exposure to chemicals prior to conception. Five were chemists, and three worked in related fields. The exposed parents were 21% of the autistic group. Only 2.7% of the parents of m.r. children, and 10% of normal controls had similar exposure. This is reminiscent of the plant pathologist, forestry professor, and mining engineer (all with mercury exposure) who had three of the first cohort of thirteen children whom Dr. Kanner found exhibited a syndrome (autism) never before seen or described anywhere. Several of the other children received the new mercury-containing diphtheria vaccine, one was the child of a doctor who worked developing the first diphtheria vax program in Baltimore in the 1930s.

    As for your assertion that in England they have discovered that one out of 88 elderly people (?) in fact suffers from autism, can you cite evidence of examinations in their early childhood showing reversal of pronouns, spinning, prolonged screaming episodes, severe gastrointestinal disturbances, severe or total language impairment, and extreme impairment in developing normal affective and other social relationships? Or is it just that one in 88 elderly people remembers being extremely shy in their youth?

    Like

  66. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Chris….here is what you said, “You made a claim that vaccines are dangerous, so you must support those claims.”

    Now tell me who is being dishonest?????????????

    Like

  67. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Please :
    Chris….here is what you said, “You made a claim that vaccines are dangerous, so you must support those claims.”
    Now tell me who is being dishonest?????????????

    You are. “Dangerous” is not the same thing as “having any sort of risk”. People choke to death on food, does that make eating dangerous? Are you better off not eating?

    Like

  68. December 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    @Diana – JB Handley & AoA have a specific agenda to attack vaccines any way they possibly can, whether any evidence exists or not.

    Are you also trying to say that 1 in 88 suffer from the most severe forms of autism? Because that is not the case – in fact, as you know, autism is a spectrum which consists of a large number of different symptoms that present themselves in a variety of different ways.

    Autistics will also progress and improve over time, naturally – as autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis. 50 – 75 years ago, children that we would consider to be extremely autistic would have been shut away in institutions and given labels such as “extremely mentally deficient” or worse.

    There are historical stories of parents in Europe that would claim that Fairies had come & replaced their child with a “Changling” – which certainly sounds like regressive autism to me….not to mention that you could point to various historical figures like Bach or Mozart, for example, that were extremely shy /; socially phobic – but also savants, that would most likely be classified autistic today.

    I’m sorry that you’ve bought into the AoA story hook, line, and sinker, but if you actually research the topic for yourself, you’ll see a much bigger picture where vaccines are not the culprit that you try to make them out to be.

    Like

  69. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    Please :
    Please don’t twist what I say Gray Falcon.
    “it’s claiming that not being vaccinated is less dangerous.”
    I never made this claim.
    Again, reading comprehension. Go back to school Gray.

    So of not being vaccinated is more dangerous, that means you are in favor of vaccination, right? If you’re going to tell people “Judge for yourself”, don’t be surprised if people judge against you.

    Like

  70. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Gray, you are very, very dishonest. Twisting what people say to fit your agenda. Shameful. You’re not very Christian are you Gray?

    Like

  71. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Please :
    Gray, you are very, very dishonest. Twisting what people say to fit your agenda. Shameful. You’re not very Christian are you Gray?

    My apologies, your arguments were identical to those made by those who opposed vaccination. Only one person said that vaccines were harmless, and nobody else, and nobody else agreed with her. And yes, we do disagree with “Vaccine Queen”, it doesn’t matter who you are, if you’re wrong, you’re wrong!
    And by the way, you still haven’t apologized for accusing Chris of saying something she didn’t.

    Like

  72. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    So to be clear you disagree with this?

    “I am a strong supporter of vaccines and know that they are safe. The consequence of not vaccinating after all I have witnessed in my job is to horrible for me to allow my daughter to go thru. Vaccines don’t kill (or harm) people….diseases do! Why don’t all you people who are so anti vaccine check the stats on how many people die from vaccine preventable deaths and report back to me…I am sure you will be amazed at those numbers!”

    Like

  73. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Carie:

    Also, L., any thoughts on why our infant mortality was just about best in the world (meaning lowest) in 1950,

    Citation needed.

    Also explain if you think the 300 to over 600 measles deaths in 1950s were acceptable losses.

    “PLease” is Joe. You can tell by his inane backtracking semantics and insults.

    Carie/Eva/Joe and the rest of you, please answer these questions. Also provide verifiable scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

    Like

  74. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Just this part: “Vaccines don’t kill (or harm) people….diseases do!” It’s in error, the rest is accurate. It would be more far more accurate to write: “Vaccines almost never kill (or harm) people (something like 1 in 100,000). That’s far less often than diseases do (more in the 1 in 100 range).” With that changed, her paragraph becomes more accurate.

    Like

  75. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    Gray Falcon, we don’t know if anything “Vaccine Queen” said is accurate because it was just a series of personal anecdotes. I don’t expect anyone to believe my personal stories, which is why I post data and evidence from reliable sources.

    Like

  76. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Can’t quite make up your mind Gray? Agree, almost agree, disagree? Flip flop flip flop

    Chris, why don’t you answer our questions rather than demanding that we answer your questions? FYI – people don’t respond well to your type of personality. Please don’t quit your day job.

    Like

  77. December 14, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    @Chris / Gray – the more he talks, the more I am convinced that Please is in fact Joe…..

    Like

  78. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Chris :
    Gray Falcon, we don’t know if anything “Vaccine Queen” said is accurate because it was just a series of personal anecdotes. I don’t expect anyone to believe my personal stories, which is why I post data and evidence from reliable sources.

    Thank you. I probably don’t need to say anything more to Joe/Please now.
    Carie/Eva: Here’s a quote from Th1Th2 to remember:

    Th1Th2:
    It’s easy to see you’re in a bargaining stage. Sorry but you can’t turn back time. It’s a tragedy to have an autistic child, not a blessing. Nobody wants to have an autistic child. You should be blamed for everything but you were in denial for a long time. You’re just digging yourself deeper into the hole. Learn from your mistakes. Sorry, but there’s no second chance. Poor kiddo.

    Still think she’s “clever and very cheeky”?

    Like

  79. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Lawrence you are delusional. I have never been called “Joe”

    Like

  80. Please
    December 14, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Gray…I agree with you. Knowbody should talk about a child that way!

    Like

  81. Rational Antivax
    December 14, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Gray…I agree with you. Knowbody should talk about a child that way!

    Err…parents. Those parents who deliberately allow their children to play on the train track must never breed again. If you don’t know what a bargaining stage is then you’re still in denialism.

    Like

  82. December 14, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Something to keep in mind when talking about numbers of ‘shots’ given in the US versus other countries… in the US we have fewer actual pathogens in each shot given, so that means yes, more shots/needles in the arm then say in France or Germany where they get one shot with 5 or 6 pathogens. They are getting the same amount of pathogens in other countries as we get here in the US, just fewer actual sticks. So in reality, this is a very flawed argument. As to the rate of infant mortality in the US versus other countries, that was mentioned, very briefly, in the anti-vaccine congressional hearing last month, although the representatives from the CDC and NIH were not given the time necessary to explain in great detail why that is, but in the US, infant mortality is measures differently the in many other countries. That being the case, there is going to be a difference in mortality rates between different countries. We actually use a much more detailed analysis to obtain mortality rates then other countries use, thus increasing the rate here. Try to have some basic information behind the argument you bring to the table, before you bring it to the table please.

    Like

  83. December 14, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    @Lara / Chris / Gray / Lilady – in light of what has occurred today, can we agree never to address Insane Troll ever again?

    Like

  84. December 14, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Agreed.

    Like

  85. Ada
    December 14, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    GF,

    I love Th1, and still think she’s funny. It is a tragedy to have an autistic child. I love my daughter very much, but it is a tragedy that she can barely talk, and has little chance of ever becoming independent, marrying, or having children. My ex-husband visited in August and said she might always remain a child, and never grow up. Leaving her at the mercy of a very selfish and corrupted world. All of us here know how far people are willing to go to make or save a buck. If she weren’t autistic (by vaccine) she’d be in a much better position of living a safe and happy life.

    I just saw a video the other day on Thinkingmomsrevolution called This is Autism, with a child screaming and screaming in pain, clutching his stomach. Many autistic people never speak, many remain in diapers their entire lives, can’t relate to people, converse, have friends… Many are in perpetual pain, banging their heads to try to relieve the pain, many have chronic, painful diarrhea, and are given to smearing poop on the walls. Their brains have been damaged by vaccines, and the damage to their brains and digestive systems cause the often unbearable, pain-filled behavior. It’s not their fault, but it’s not part of the parenting contract either. My cousin has an autistic daughter who was institutionalized as a small child. I’ve told my friends I can’t imagine institutionalizing your own child, but my uncle tells me about her out-of-control behavior, and I can’t imagine dealing with that for the rest of my life on a daily basis either. He was terrified what would happen to her when she turned 21, he was afraid she’d be put out on the street. That’s not a tragedy?

    My daughter is not on the Asperger’s spectrum, but she’s considered of normal intelligence, doing grade-level work (with supports). Not being able to talk much or be interested in anything is a big and apparently insuperable problem. I know Th1 is not talking about parents being to blame when their baby is given the hep-B vax at the hospital without asking permission, especially when the parent has told the doctor not to let her get the shot. That has happened to a lot of us, Judy Converse for one, besides me. She’s high-functioning, probably because I refused the MMR and several more shots. I am working very hard to recover her, and I have hope that we will be able to do so. We were tied to the RR tracks. Rational Antivax, do you have an opinion about babies damaged because they were wrested from their mothers’ arms and tied to the RR tracks?

    Like

  86. Gray Falcon
    December 14, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    Ada, you have just crossed a serious line, siding with Th1Th2. Anyone who supports someone as vile as her deserves nothing but scorn. Goodbye.

    Like

  87. Rational Antivax
    December 14, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    Straight from the horse’s mouth—don’t dare to cross the line. Just stand right there on the train track with eyes shut and ears plugged.

    Like

  88. Rational Antivax
    December 14, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    Rational Antivax, do you have an opinion about babies damaged because they were wrested from their mothers’ arms and tied to the RR tracks?

    I just hope the damage is reversible but if you’re in this kind of medical system we have, I highly doubt that there will be a fix.

    Like

  89. Lawrence
    December 14, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    Welcome back CIA Parker, Ella, Ada, and your innumerable sock puppets….why do you feel the need to come back over and over again with the same disproven information and stories?

    Also, once again proof that anti-vaccinationists will embrace anyone, regardless of how odious, as long as they hate vaccines.

    Like

  90. Chris
    December 14, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    This is a pertinent article (it is a about an article that is behind a paywall): Anti-anti-vax: Getting to the gist:

    Skewering the science of vaccine safety and efficacy, while trying to create legitimacy for unfounded or discredited theories of harm.
    Shifting the hypotheses and the villain, from MMR, to thimerosal, to other “toxins”, and more recently, “too many, too soon”.
    Censoring criticism, whether it’s at Age of Autism, Mothering.com, or other antivaccine sites that delete comments or restrict access to their events.
    Attacking the opposition, whether it’s our own David Gorski or lawsuits against Paul Offit or Amy Wallace.

    One can see many of these tactics were used in the comments on this page.

    Like

  91. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 12:51 am

    I’ve been off line all day…so I’m just catching up. Of course I will ignore the trolls and the ever-changing sockies.

    BTW Ada, That TMR videotape that you are “praising” is vile. What loving parent would violate their child’s personal dignity by videotaping their child in the midst of tantrums/meltdowns and on the ground in the midst of a grand mal seizure with only a diaper on?

    Also that video was shown at the sham Congressional Autism hearing where the Chair and members of the committee were wined and dined since May, 2012, by the disgraced former doctor Andrew Wakefield who is an operative for a notorious anti-vaccine organization, which set the anti-vaccine “agenda” for the hearing.

    Like

  92. December 15, 2012 at 2:23 am

    Nay sayers can say all they want that having a child with autism is a tragedy, I will never, ever in my life believe it, or support that point of view. Here is why…

    I was not supposed to be able to have any more children after my forth, without fertility treatments, which I would never be able to afford. I had one more beautiful little girl, who is 13 now, and nearly eight years after her came my youngest son, who has autism. He is a blessing to me because for one thing, I was not supposed to be able to have him, and for a second thing (slightly personal info) unfortunately, my ex husband and his wife have done a pretty good job of convincing a couple of my kids that I left them (I didn’t leave them, but my ex husband) because I was tired of being a mom (as if!) so they don’t speak to me anymore, and taken my younger two to a different state, without my permission and will not allow me to see them, even when they are in town. That will not happen with my little Mini V, because he is my son, nobody can take him from me, unless I do something extremely stupid in regards to his care, and if that were the case, I wouldn’t deserve to keep him anyway.

    The pain that people speak of in regards to autism, is not autism. It is something separate, along side autism. Seizure disorders also are not autism. There are any number of things that may contribute to or exaggerate autistic behaviors, but if they were controlled, people would find that autism, by itself is not a problem at all.

    My son is genuine, affectionate (when it suits him) funny as all get out and smart as I could never imagine a child his age being. He takes in everything, is developing a love for science (space, astronomy, animal science and even human anatomy) and is learning to read, can write his own name now, and he has friends who adore him and go out of their way to say hi to him. He has just lost his first two teeth so talks with the cutest little lisp now, and he is great at finding words that rhyme! He gets so excited about little things, going on the bus to go shopping, putting up a new holiday decoration, getting french fries from McDonald’s and mommy singing “Baby Mine” to him every night at bed time. Who wouldn’t love having a child like that?

    Autism is a part of who he is, he wouldn’t be who he is without it, and I wouldn’t want him to be anybody but who he was meant to be. I just hope he doesn’t run into people like these some day who will make him feel bad or ashamed that he has autism, that is completely and totally unjustified, cruel and quite rude in fact. No different from making a woman, or a man, feel badly because they are of one gender, or another. Gender and autism are both integral parts of what make up the whole of my son, I would no sooner wish him to be neurotypical then I would wish him to be a girl.

    The real tragedy is when a parent believes their child is a tragedy. Losing a child to a vaccine preventable disease is a tragedy. Having a child disabled permanently from disease or even an accident is also a tragedy. But a child born with autism (which they all are, regardless of what you believe, scientific fact does not lie) is not a tragedy. Personally, anyone who feels their child is a tragedy, should give their child up to a family that will love and appreciate that child and give that child a chance at a future without the ‘autism is a tragedy’ stigma. Refusal to do so, in my opinion, just means you are using that child as a means to get attention for yourself, and that is just sad and pathetic, and definitely not fair to any child, autistic or not.

    Like

  93. Chris
    December 15, 2012 at 2:45 am

    lilady:

    What loving parent would violate their child’s personal dignity by videotaping their child in the midst of tantrums/meltdowns and on the ground in the midst of a grand mal seizure with only a diaper on?

    Wait. What? I did not watch the video, and that just made my jaw drop. Who has time to videotape a seizure? When it happened to my toddler (and yes, he was only wearing a diaper) I was on the phone dialing 911, and then letting in the paramedics. That was his second trip to a hospital by ambulance.

    Like

  94. December 15, 2012 at 8:51 am

    @Chris – it’s okay. Those parent’s don’t consider their children to be really “human” since they haven’t been “recovered” yet – so it justifies whatever they feel like doing…..

    Like

  95. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    If anyone wants to view that horrible video it is up on the Age of Autism blog. The “Thinking Mom” whose child was in the midst of a grand mal seizure was “too busy” setting up the camera and “capturing” a full frontal view of her son’s facial contortions, to gently place him in a side-lying position with a soft pillow supporting his head:

    http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/aboutepilepsy/seizures/genconvulsive/tonicseizures.cfm

    My son had thousands of grand mal seizures during his twenty-eight years of life and several episodes of status episodes along with postictal Todd’s paralysis, which finally resolved 24 hours later:

    http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/todds-paralysis

    The parents who videotaped their children are horrible.

    Like

  96. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    I am sure Wakefield set the anti-vaccine “agenda” at the congressional hearing. He so respected these days. You are in DENIAL that the truth about vaccines is all coming out. The world you live in is going away. What will you do? Who will your argue with then?

    Like

  97. Penny
    December 15, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    In the video I was referring to, the child was not having a grand mal seizure, he was in excruciating pain from his GI condition caused by vaccines, and was clutching his belly and screaming horribly. I think its purpose was to make people aware of the extremely severe physical symptoms that many children with autism suffer from on a daily basis. It was not on an Age of Autism blog, it was on Thinkingmomsrevoluton.com

    Have you seen my letter to the editor on the congressional hearings published Thursday, and linked on Anne Dachel’s blog today?

    Thanks, Th1, I’m not relying on our medical system for any solutions, but I think chelation is going to be the answer. Did you see the Le monde article published this past week about bumatadide (sp?), a diruetic that pulls out (chelates) chlorine and possibly the mercury it’s attached to, in three-quarters of the autistic children in the study?
    http://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2012/12/11/un-diuretique-pour-lutter-contre-l-autisme_1804602_1650684.html
    Do you have an opinion on that?

    Like

  98. December 15, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    lilady, and anyone else, this is a blog where not only can you watch that wretched video, but also contains a short blog and a place to comment. The fact that anyone felt the need to make this kind of video… It just turned my stomach to watch it. I would no more video my son in the middle of a meltdown then I would if he was potty trained and happened to be taking a dump on the toilet. There are some things that just don’t need to be saved for posterity, ya know?

    http://thautcast.com/drupal5/content/progress-autistic-adults-arent-my-child-so-they-should-shut-front

    Like

  99. Arie
    December 15, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    In the video I was referring to, the child was not having a grand mal seizure, he was in excruciating pain from his GI condition caused by vaccines, and was clutching his belly and screaming horribly. I think its purpose was to make people aware of the extremely severe physical symptoms that many children with autism suffer from on a daily basis. It was not on an Age of Autism blog, it was on Thinkingmomsrevoluton.com

    Have you seen my letter to the editor on the congressional hearings published Thursday, and linked on Anne Dachel’s blog today?

    Thanks, Th1, I’m not relying on our medical system for any solutions, but I think chelation is going to be the answer. Did you see the Le monde article published this past week about bumatadide (sp?), a diruetic that pulls out (chelates) chlorine and possibly the mercury it’s attached to, in three-quarters of the autistic children in the study?
    http://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2012/12/11/un-diuretique-pour-lutter-contre-l-autisme_1804602_1650684.html
    Do you have an opinion on that?

    Like

  100. Gray Falcon
    December 15, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    In other words, Penny, you’re admitting that you think it’s perfectly acceptable, when your own flesh and blood is in severe pain, to go ahead and videotape them rather than try to get help. Monster.

    Like

  101. December 15, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Penny / Arie – why the need for sockpuppets?

    And Please – AJW respected? In what circle of Hell would that be? He’s been stripped of his medical license & even when he could still practice, he made no attempt to follow up on his own Lancet study (before it was retracted)…..how exactly is he respected?

    The more groups like AoA & Generation Rescue are marginalized, the more they will crow of their “successes.” Luckily, they are moving more and more to the fringe – which makes them increasingly irrelevant to the vast majority of families with autistic children.

    Like

  102. December 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    @Penny / Arie – you do know that chelation has not scientific basis as a treatment for autism, right? Especially given the extremely small (if not completely insignificant) amount of thimersol (which is a compound, which includes an even smaller amount of mercury), means that when you chelate your children, all you are doing it stripping away vital minerals from their bones, right?

    Chelation is torture, plain and simple.

    Like

  103. December 15, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    @cia, using yet another sock puppet, are you?

    For the umpteenth time… bowel issues are NOT caused by vaccines, neither is autism. Saying it over and over does not dismiss nor change the science that has been found contrary to your statement and belief. Just stop saying stuff that isn’t true because it really pissed some people off to continually tell you over and over and over again, that EVERYTHING you believe about autism has been proven incorrect and you need to move past it and let it go because science is not wrong, you are.

    The only people who believe their children with autism are a burden and a tragedy are those who believe their children are damaged goods. If you really believe that, then why don’t you ‘throw them away’ and find someone else to care for them, because your callous remarks regarding your children show your obvious hatred of them, and don’t try to tell me you love your daughter, your words about how pathetic and damaged you believe she is say otherwise.

    Yes, this stuff pisses me off, because you are few. You who believe vaccines are the root of all evil, but particularly the cause of autism. Compared to the many millions of autistics and their families who are out there, you are insignificant, and yet for some reason, even though science has proved your beliefs wrong time and time and time again, you continue to tout this like it’s some kind of special members only club you belong to that nobody else can ever understand. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL, NOR ANY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER AUTISM PARENT, AND OUR VOICES ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS YOURS. If not more so because we are interested in finding real solutions, not chasing fairy tales and tilting at windmills.

    You are wrong cia, face it, accept it, move on and try to help the rest of the world find real answers and real solutions, because right now, you are part of the problem. Put up, or shut up, as you’ve been told before, only this time, I’m not asking you for anything from Dr Sears and any of your other anti-vaccine quack heroes. Help can be had for those with autism NOW, if we focus on what it is they need. If you continue to scream about vaccines damaging your daughter, then you obviously don’t want to help her. It’s time to choose your side, because if you don’t, your side is going to be left behind, because the vaccine questions has been answered, and answered and answered again and we are tired of hearing the same thing over and over and over again and we want to start talking about options that can really help.

    Like

  104. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    Those short video clips do not in any way or form represent a new onset seizure or acute abdominal pain. In short, it’s not an emergent case that will warrant any life-saving measures but supportive care. Parents of these children have been trained on how to handle such recurrent and chronic events at home. I’m sure lilady and Chris would know that. But I’m just wondering why they didn’t videotape their own children when they got plenty of time. Obviously they are still in the denial stage.

    Like

  105. Lara Lohne
    December 15, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    Remember, the insane troll is being ignored.

    Like

  106. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    I am not aware that Bumetanide (Bumex) can be used for chelation other than to treat patients with CHF with fluid overload.

    Like

  107. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Lawrence….that’s what I said…AW is NOT respected, so how did he set the anti-vaccine agenda for the hearing? The point is…he didn’t, the point is, people are waking up.

    Like

  108. December 15, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    @Please – yes, waking up to the fact that the anti-vaccine groups don’t have a leg to stand on.

    Like

  109. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    The parents who videotaped their children are horrible.

    Then this site is also guilty for posting graphical images of chicken pox lesions, video clips of children having whooping cough, intubated patients suffering from complication of measles or flu etc .

    If the plural of anecdote is not data, then shoot it in 1080p.

    Moral lesson: Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

    Like

  110. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Please – yes, waking up to the fact that the anti-vaccine groups don’t have a leg to stand on.

    It was severed by the train after you deliberately tell them to stand on the train track with their eyes close and ears plugged.

    Now these victims are fighting back.

    Like

  111. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Agreed Rational Antivax

    Lawrence….we shall see. I have to say your side looked awfully stupid at the congressional hearings.

    Like

  112. Chris
    December 15, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Penny/Arie/Cia/Whatever:

    In the video I was referring to, the child was not having a grand mal seizure, he was in excruciating pain from his GI condition caused by vaccines, and was clutching his belly and screaming horribly.

    First off, vaccines do not cause GI conditions. And it is a horrible parent who does not take their child to a qualified doctor to deal with gastrointestinal issues.

    My son had seizures from a real gastrointestinal condition, caused by a real rotavirus infection (and a piggy backing ear infection). The diarrhea he had caused him to become dehydrated which screwed up his electrolytes. And unlike you, I had taken him to the doctor the day before (he seemed to be recovering), called 911 and did several follow up medical appointments with the family doctor and neurologist.

    The biggest and most stupid mistake I did was read a “natural baby care” book that said it was okay to give diluted apple juice to for diarrhea. Which I did because my son would not drink the pediolyte. It was in the emergency room that I was told apple juice causes diarrhea, and to stick to applesauce (it has pectin). When we got home I put that book into the fireplace and burned it.

    Only a horrible parent would ignore their child’s real medical issues and pretend it is something else. Or refuse to learn from their mistakes.

    Again, to any lurkers: observe how this person pretends to be several persons by changing their username, but forgetting to change the content. This is because she has no data, and must continue to make things up. Also, remember, there is absolutely no reason you should believe my anecdotes, but just go up the thread and look at the data and evidence I have posted, for example:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    BMJ 2002; 325:419-21
    Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database.

    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.

    Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58
    No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9
    Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.

    Like

  113. December 15, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    @Please – a good thing science isn’t settled by Congressional Committee…..fortunately, for all of your trumpeting, I don’t really see a whole lot of traction on your side of things. You are still talking about discredited scientific theories from over a decade ago….

    Like

  114. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Lawrence…can’t wait to see you eat your words. As time goes on it only gets closer and closer to doomsday for you and your pals.

    Chris…vaccines cam cause GI issues along with many other things. You really need to do more research. Stop spending so much time with this site and your negativity and use the time for real research.

    Plus you will be much happier in life.

    Like

  115. Chris
    December 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Please:

    Chris…vaccines cam cause GI issues along with many other things. You really need to do more research.

    Citation needed.

    And the last thing I need is lifestyle advice from someone who perseveres on “vaccines cause autism” and lies.

    Like

  116. Chris
    December 15, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Please:

    Lawrence…can’t wait to see you eat your words. As time goes on it only gets closer and closer to doomsday for you and your pals.

    I remember hearing this almost a decade ago, and the big paper turned out to a Medical Hypothesis paper by Blaxill and friends. You all keep saying that, but it seems that since then there have been Yet another bad day for the anti-vaccine movement.

    There is a reason you cannot argue on data and evidence, need to bamboozle politicians, lie, use sock puppets, and concern troll: you have nothing.

    Like

  117. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Chris…you are wrong and you will be eating your words. 🙂

    And you don’t have a very nice persona…seriously, if you stop being so negative, you will be much happier and I’m sure your friends and family will appreciate it! Hanging around on this site arguing all of the time will put you in a premature death.

    Like

  118. Gray Falcon
    December 15, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    @Please- Only a fool declares victory before the race has ended.

    Like

  119. Chris
    December 15, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    LOL, I have been hearing that for over a decade. It never stops being hilarious.

    There is no reason to be nice to someone who lies, and continues to believe in fairy tale falsehoods that harm children.

    Like

  120. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    We have already won Gray!

    Chris, you’re not nice to anyone, don’t make excuses for yourself.

    Like

  121. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Call me a fool Gray as much has changed since I found out about vaccines only 3 short years ago. Too bad so many kids have to suffer in the mean time.

    Like

  122. December 15, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @Please – you sound just like Custer at Little Big Horn….which is kind of funny. Unfortunately, you’re crowd is keeping a lot of needed research to be done to determine the real causal factors of autism & develop the kinds of therapies that help autistic children maximize their ability to develop and adapt as they get older.

    There are plenty of older autistics that were misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all – and they require services as well.

    You are living in a box – one built around discredited medical theories from a decade or more ago – a lot has changed recently, including a lot of genetic research which shows signs of autistic brain development in the womb…..

    As for negativity – you seem to have enough for all of us – so you can keep it.

    Like

  123. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    I’m going to say this again, with this kind of corrupt medical system we have, there is no fix!

    Measles vaccination and inflammatory bowel disease: controversy laid to rest?
    Davis RL, Bohlke K.

    In summary, available evidence does not support an association between measles-containing vaccines and risk of IBD, nor between measles infection and IBD.

    That’s right, vaccinators continue with your infection-promoting agenda and don’t criticize Sears because your science does not support an association of measles infection and IBD.

    This country is so f@#$ed up!

    Like

  124. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    You are living in a box – one built around discredited medical theories from a decade or more ago – a lot has changed recently, including a lot of genetic research which shows signs of autistic brain development in the womb…..

    Autistic brain development in the womb?? They can’t even cure a simple flu!

    Like

  125. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    @ Arie and Sockies:

    The older child on the floor most certainly was in the midst of a grand mal seizure…and at least one of the posters on the TMR blog “recognized” and acknowledged that. Notice how the blogger “Sugah” did NOT “correct” the poster to “claim” the young man was experiencing GI pain, rather than a grand mal seizure.

    Listen to the narrative and the reference to “seizures”.

    http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/this-is-autism/

    “Specialneedsadvocate says:
    December 6, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for showing the REAL side of autism. No, it’s not pretty, it’s
    heartbreaking, but it’s what so many of us parents deal with every single day! I especially commend you for videotaping the seizure….my 20 year old son still has them too and every year it gets harder for me to support him and get a diaper on him (and he only weighs 103 pounds). This will really open some eyes and I pray that the committee allow this video as testimony….it says more than words ever could!

    You’re attempting some “damage control” because that video has been roundly criticized. Nice try. The parents who videotaped their children for this video, including the parent who videotaped her son in the midst of a grand mal seizure are horrible people and so are you.

    Like

  126. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Obviously, lilady et al do not want to see the REAL side of autism.

    Hey Gray, how did you look like when you were having fits?

    Like

  127. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    There is no reason to be nice to someone who lies, and continues to believe in fairy tale falsehoods that harm children.

    Please mind your place. You were caught standing on the train track and your child was harmed.

    Like

  128. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    Still ignoring delusional, germ phobic ignorant health care professional wannabe troll.

    Like

  129. December 15, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    For the record, Chris has always been very nice to me, and I consider her among my friends, right along with lilady, Lawrence and Gray Falcon. The only time anyone posting here has ever not been nice is when they are telling me I’m delusional, in denial, clearly emotionally or mentally disturbed, a horrible parent for not ‘fixing’ my son and ‘doing everything I can to help him’ makes me neglectful. Those are people who claim vaccines caused autism, including trying to tell me the same happened to my son, when I know for a fact it did not and that it’s a tragedy that my son has autism and has me for a mom, because I accept him as he is, love him as he is and see him progressing by leaps and bounds and thriving under my care, love and acceptance. So who are the unfriendly and negative ones here? I’ve only seen that from the anti-vaccine crowd.

    Like

  130. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Lara…you have a child with Autism?

    You don’t do anything for him/her? If you don’t do everything you can, that is neglectful, especially since you know what can be done.

    Like

  131. December 15, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    @Please – Lara does not chelate her child, she does not feed him bleach, she does not put him in a hyperbaric chamber or subject him to the wide variety of quack “cures” that are peddled to the autism community – instead, she provides him with a loving home and loving family….I’d stack her son up against anyone’s, any day of the week.

    Like

  132. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Maybe her son doesn’t need chelation Lawrence….I hope she wouldn’t unless he needed it. Why would anybody feed their kid bleach?
    I think you are the warped one!

    Like

  133. December 15, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    @Please – you obviously have no idea the depths to which the biomedical intervention community has sunk when it comes to autism – MMS (which is bleach) is given to autistic children either orally or as an enema, as some sort of “autism remedy.”

    For a child with autism, who is already extremely sensitive to stimuli, this must be horrid & complete torture – why these parents treat their children so, I will never fathom.

    Like

  134. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Please could everyone just ignore “Please” who is another sockie of the delusional Thingy.

    She’s been banned from a number of blogs because of her nasty behavior directed toward parents of developmentally disabled kids, her compelling need for attention and her pathological lying.

    Like

  135. Please
    December 15, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    Excuse me lil…I am not a “she” and I haven’t been banned from anything in my life.

    You’re about as nice as Chris.

    Like

  136. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Oops did I confuse “Please” with Thingy’s sockie?

    I wonder why…you both post some contentious comments….that are totally devoid of science.

    Into the “Ignore” bin with “Please” whoever he or she is a sockie for.

    Like

  137. lilady
    December 15, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Here again the PubMed line listing of 327 studies disproving any link between the MMR Vaccine and the onset of autism:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

    And here, from the Autism Science Foundation some of the many studies that found no link between any vaccine, the adjuvants/excipients/preservatives in vaccines, the timing of vaccines and the onset of autism:

    http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

    Like

  138. Rational Antivax
    December 15, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    To have a relationship with MMR vaccine is like having an affair with an unfaithful partner.

    You would have to wonder there isn’t one disease that is being linked to autism.

    Because if they did, you’ll be dumping your partner in a heartbeat.

    Like

  139. lilady
    December 16, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Still ignoring delusional sockie.

    Like

  140. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    lil…you should be ignored….you don’t ever seem to know who you are talking to and you bring up points that nobody is talking about?? Plus you have so much denial. Doesn’t it get tiresome?

    Like

  141. December 16, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    @Lilady – yes, best to ignore all the trolls at this point.

    Like

  142. December 16, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    So nice, it should be said twice…..

    Here again the PubMed line listing of 327 studies disproving any link between the MMR Vaccine and the onset of autism:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=19952979

    And here, from the Autism Science Foundation some of the many studies that found no link between any vaccine, the adjuvants/excipients/preservatives in vaccines, the timing of vaccines and the onset of autism:

    http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

    Like

  143. Gray Falcon
    December 16, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    @Please- She has physical evidence. That’s more than you’ve ever brought to the table.

    Like

  144. December 16, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    @Gray – there are those trolls that are obviously here just for arguments’ sake & are solely looking for a fight.

    Like

  145. Rational Antivax
    December 16, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Gray,

    Physical evidence? Then where are the unvaccinated and uninfected who have developed autism in all these studies? Barking up the wrong tree again?

    Like

  146. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Gray….evidence of what? What did I request evidence of? Lilday is talking to herself. I never asked for anything in regards to Autism or MMR. Maybe I just need a good analogy eh Gray?

    Like

  147. December 16, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    @Gray – the trolls are in rare form in this thread…..again, just looking to pick a fight…lol

    Like

  148. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    And yet you keep talking Lawrence….too bad I can’t say the same for you, but thanks for the compliment.

    Like

  149. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Read your Todd W blog Lawrence….he has some learning to do eh? Maybe you should help him out and show him the way. Looks like a rookie, why do you highlight his blog?

    Like

  150. December 16, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    @Gray – amazing how little grasp the anti-vaccine activists have of actual science….at the end of the day, all they have left is insults, which just shows the bankruptcy of their position.

    Like

  151. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Gray, get off of your high horse…all you do is throw insults, what a hypocrite.

    36 infants died after receiving the 6-in-1 vaccine, Infanrix Hexa in only two years between 2009 and 2011, plus 503 serious adverse reactions!!! This reported directly from a GlaxoSmithKline document.
    Still caring for our children?? I am sure these numbers are considered acceptable by you because you hate children.

    Like

  152. Rational Antivax
    December 16, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    So what have you learned from those studies Lawrence? What could have cause autism? Their answer is: “We don’t know”, and you call that science? More like a bull.

    Here’s a tip. You would never expect science from the same people who have abandoned it in order not to implicate vaccines.

    And as for those who remain unvaccinated and uninfected, autism is NOT going to be their problem. It’s akin to saying, “He’s autistic. Of course, he was vaccinated.”

    Like

  153. Chris
    December 16, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    Please:

    36 infants died after receiving the 6-in-1 vaccine, Infanrix Hexa in only two years between 2009 and 2011, plus 503 serious adverse reactions!!!

    Citation needed. Official public health or legal document, or better yet PubMed indexed case report review. No links to “secret documents.”

    Like

  154. December 16, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    @Chris – I wouldn’t hold your breath…..

    Like

  155. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    They are not “secret” documents. They are the actual documents that GlaxoSmithKline sent to the Regulatory Authorities.

    http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/3/27/09/71/2012-2013/confid.pdf

    What are you going to deny this too? Denial is a big deal on this site.

    Like

  156. Please
    December 16, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Gray…these are for you….What is the best way to photograph a speeding bullet? Why does light move through glass in the least amount of time possible? How can lost hikers find their way out of a forest? What will rainbows look like in the future? Why do soap bubbles have a shape that gives them the least area?

    Like

  157. December 16, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    I am sharply reminded of putinreloaded of late.

    Like

  158. Chris
    December 16, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    How do we know that is a real document? What kind of website is ddata.over-blog? It is not a public health or court site, nor is it PubMed. It has pages that are all over the map from Eva Longoria’s personal life to some religious writings. It is quite cute that you do not know how to follow instructions, and insist that a random website is legitimate.

    And even if it is real, it is just like VAERS data, not conclusive until the full data is reviewed. It did say that over 24 million doses were given during those two years. Try again with some actual studies like:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2011 Sep;30(9):e170-8. doi: 10.1097/INF.0b013e31821a0614.
    Immunogenicity, safety, and reactogenicity of the 10-valent pneumococcal nontypeable Haemophilus influenzae protein D conjugate vaccine and DTPa-IPV-Hib when coadministered as a 3-dose primary vaccination schedule in The Netherlands: a randomized controlled trial.

    Like

  159. December 16, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    @Please – explain how dozens, if not hundreds of governments, hundreds of regulatory authorities, dozens of major corporations, thousands of research and educational institutions, along with millions of health care professionals, regulators and researchers are part of a worldwide conspiracy to suppress the “evils” of vaccines?

    Like

  160. December 16, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    @Chris – reviewing the document, I see a lot of “resolved” cases with no overall ill effect to the patients. I also see adverse events that are “linked” even though the vaccination occurred as many as 191 days before – not to mention the 24 hour linked, which given the path that vaccines take in the body, makes a link in that short a time frame to be impossible.

    I’m sure “Please” is either a contributor at AoA or frequent commenter there…..

    Like

  161. Rational Antivax
    December 16, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    I also see adverse events that are “linked” even though the vaccination occurred as many as 191 days before – not to mention the 24 hour linked, which given the path that vaccines take in the body, makes a link in that short a time frame to be impossible.

    How many vaccines are given within two years of age? Lots of opportunity to maim an innocent child.

    And have you ever heard of prolonged and sustained antigenic stimulation? You’re touting this all the time but you’re oblivious i.e. longer lasting immunity

    You don’t know $#!+ about anything. Go to medical school before you even read journals. It’s not worth it.

    Like

  162. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 12:14 am

    Okay, Please, you are making a claim and using a dodgy website to prove it. Now show us that particular vaccine is more dangerous than the six diseases it is for. Use reliable websites, not ones that also have pages that are about the personal life of celebrities.

    And do tell us if it is approved in the USA, because until today I had not heard of it.

    Like

  163. lilady
    December 17, 2012 at 12:15 am

    I am posting on a friend’s computer while while away from home for 2 days. I gave a quick scan to the supposed severe adverse events report, following immunization.

    Just taking one serious adverse event “atrial septal defect”…is quite “telling” about the plausability of these “reported severe adverse events”.

    Anyone who had any basic science/human physiology/embryology course would realize that a patent foramen ovale a.k.a. atrial septal defect…is a failure of the newborn’s circulatory system to switch over from the fetal circulatory sytem to the post-birth circulatory system within a short period of time after birth.

    So someone reports a congenital atrial septal defect as being caused by an immunization…or did the foramen ovale actually close soon after birth…then reopen due to receiving immunizations? That’s not medically plausible.

    Try again, to impress us with “reported” serious adverse events…the report you linked to is not impressive and the events have no prior medical plausability.

    Like

  164. lilady
    December 17, 2012 at 12:54 am

    Welll we know for certain that “Rational” is the sockie of the irrational delusional Thingy.

    I’m uncertain about the identity of the “Please” sockie.

    Just put the both sockies in the Ignore Smelly Sockie Bin.

    Like

  165. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:55 am

    Please, post the PubMed indexed papers that show the vaccine directly caused the deaths, otherwise stay away from open flames with those straw man arguments. Otherwise you are just emphasizing your lack of evidence. In the same time period It can easily be shown that deaths from those diseases exceeded the alleged deaths from that particular vaccine (that is not used in the USA). Remember that 2010 was when at least ten babies died from pertussis.

    The question is why you, “Please” the troll, do not care about the children who get the actual diseases. Like the over 280 who died from h1n1 flu in 2009/2010 or the five who died from influenza this fall. Or even this young lady. As expected, “Please” went with unfounded insults instead of providing real data.

    Like

  166. Paige
    December 17, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    Thanks for your comment, Th1Th2. It was a new French study, that thinks it has shown a new use for Bumex. There’s an embedded Youtube video of a French child before treatment who couldn’t blow out a candle when the therapist urged him to, but after treatment he did. It thinks that three-quarters of autistic children treated showed remarkable improvement. At first I thought it was just another silly study, but then I thought that maybe getting the chlorine out, which, I learned in the book Age of Autism last week, is often bonded to mercury in the vaccines, could also get the mercury out, effecting the improvement (possibly).

    I agree with Joe and Th1, that if you have an autistic child, then it is your responsibiltiy to do everything possible to recover him or her. Lawrence, it’s easy for you to say that the mercury in vaccines is not stored in the body and does not cause autism. However, the possible manifestations of acute mercury poisoning are identical to the symptoms of autism (obviously not talking about the MMR here, that’s a different story), and also to the symptoms of MS. There’s a diagram in the AoA book from an old medical text showing a torso with outstretched arms, with the area that could become numb from mercury damage being shaded. So I have had long-lasting numbness in my arms or fingers, my brother says his feet and hands have become permanently numb, and my friend’s father is going to the Mayo Clinic this month for his recently-acquired peripheral neuropathy. I had never heard of it before my friend told me about it, but, there you go, her parents religiously get the flu vaccine every year, and now her father has numbness in the shaded areas in the textbook. Lawrence, it’s easy for you to dismiss alternative treatments, since you apparently don’t suffer from any of the symptoms, but for those who do, it is only to be expected that we look for answers. Many say they have recovered from chelation. It gets the heavy metals out, apparently no question of that. DMSA, ALA for mercury, malic acid with magnesium for aluminum. Of course I’m going to (carefully) try it. I just finished the ninth round, but they say it can take 300-400 rounds to cure MS. So, I can either do nothing, or do something, hoping for improvement. What would you choose?

    Even the medical establishment now admits that GI symptoms go with autism so often, that they are now advised to screen for GI disease upon making a diagnosis of autism. The GFCF diet has greatly improved my autistic daughter’s GI symptoms. Apparently something like 85% of autistic children suffer some form of GI disease. I suspect that some of you still assert that there’s no connection because doing so would give a lot of points to Drs. Wakefield, Walker-Smith, and Murch.

    Like

  167. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Paige/Carie/Cia/Whatever:

    Even the medical establishment now admits that GI symptoms go with autism so often, that they are now advised to screen for GI disease upon making a diagnosis of autism.

    Citation needed.

    Thanks for your comment, Th1Th2.

    Do you mean this one, the one where she blames you the parent for having child with disabilities:

    It’s easy to see you’re in a bargaining stage. Sorry but you can’t turn back time. It’s a tragedy to have an autistic child, not a blessing. Nobody wants to have an autistic child. You should be blamed for everything but you were in denial for a long time. You’re just digging yourself deeper into the hole. Learn from your mistakes. Sorry, but there’s no second chance. Poor kiddo.

    Like

  168. Chris
  169. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Please:

    Chris, the difference between the kids who get diseases and those who are vaccine injured is that the kids who got the diseases weren’t purposely infected.

    So which happens more? From the WHO: “In 2010, there were 139 300 measles deaths globally – nearly 380 deaths every day or 15 deaths every hour. So you need to tell us how much more dangerous the MMR vaccine is versus measles.

    Now let me change the accusation you made against me above, and point it towards you: “Just what I expected….you all hate children. 139000 deaths in one year year and all you can do is make excuses.”

    Like

  170. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    Please :
    Chris, the difference between the kids who get diseases and those who are vaccine injured is that the kids who got the diseases weren’t purposely infected. The vaccine injured children were purposely injected, so something can be done about it. Based on the information in the document that vaccine should be pulled immediately, and if you don’t think so, than you truly are evil.

    If someone disabled a traffic light at a busy intersection, would the resulting accidents be their fault? By pulling the vaccine, you would be deliberately putting people at risk. Learn some basic ethics.

    Chris, you are such a hypocrite. I have been treated terribly by you and others here. You are no better than anybody else.

    Examples, please.

    Like

  171. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Chris, you are the one promoting vaccines that are not safe.

    Like

  172. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Please:

    Chris, you are the one promoting vaccines that are not safe.

    Citation needed.

    Now, here is information on pertussis: “worldwide, there are an estimated 300,000 annual deaths due to pertussis.”

    Now it is up to you to provide the evidence that any pertussis vaccine, including Infanrix Hexa, causes that much mortality in children. And to quote that other accusation again with the pertussis death numbers: ” “Just what I expected….you all hate children. 300,000 deaths in one year and all you can do is make excuses.”

    Like

  173. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    So you believe because some vaccines help prevent diseases, that nothing should be done about admittedly proven un-safe vaccines that kill and injure children?? Why ever remove drugs from the market Chris? Who cares if they are killing people? Some drugs work great so all drugs are good. That is really warped logic Chris.
    The difference between the kids who get diseases and those who are vaccine injured is that the kids who got the diseases weren’t purposely infected. The vaccine injured children were purposely injected, so something can be done about it. You are showing your true colors and how truly really evil you are.

    Like

  174. December 17, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    @Please – then care to explain the parents who were trying to send “chicken pox infected pops” through the mail to facilitate “pox parties?” Seems pretty purposeful to me…..

    It is painfully obvious that you aren’t interested in a honest conversation, based on your feigned indignance…..

    Now, I will ask you to provide actual evidence that vaccines are any less safe than other standard medical treatments. And how about evidence that vaccines are even anywhere near as harmful as the diseases that they prevent?

    Got anything at all?

    Like

  175. December 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    @Please – that’s a dishonest argument & you know it. Please present evidence that any of the current vaccines on the US Schedule are “unsafe.” And while you are at it, please provide a concrete definition of what you consider to be unsafe (please avoid the Nirvana Fallacy too).

    Like

  176. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Lawrence, do I look like the parents sending kids to Chicken Pox parties?

    It’s painfully obvious that you and your cronies do not care about vaccines hurting kids.

    Why would I need to provide evidence that vaccines are any less safe than other medical treatments? Other medical treatments are “medical treatments” Hello….vaccines are not treating anything, they are given to healthy people.

    It’s also not a debate about how many people die or are injured from diseases vs. vaccines. You are always stuck on that!!! If you know a vaccine is hurting people than you stop giving it out!! Anybody sane would stop doing what is injuring people.

    Like

  177. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Please (who is sounding more like Thingy), all you have do is provide title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show children are disabled and die from vaccines more than from the diseases they prevent. I have given you data on worldwide measles and pertussis mortality. Now prove the vaccines are just as deadly.

    That is all we are asking. We are not the ones willing to let hundreds of thousands of children die from pertussis, measles, meningitis, etc until the vaccines are “perfect”, which is the Nirvana Fallacy. We are not the ones who hate children and want them to get the actual diseases. We are not the ones who argue from blatant assertion. We are not the ones refusing to answer honest questions (still waiting for you to address these). We are not the ones making claims and refusing to support them with real evidence.

    Now, just give us those citations showing that vaccines kill at least 139000 + 300000 (439000) children per year.

    Like

  178. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Please:

    You really aren’t that bright.

    Why do you think insults is a valid form of evidence? Answer the questions on the relative risk between vaccine and disease with real data.

    Like

  179. December 17, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    @Please – cars hurt people all the time, are you advocating that we ban cars? You’re making an argument based on the “Nirvana Fallacy” & a bankrupt argument at that – given that the rate of serious vaccine reactions is so much lower than the very real & serious side-effects of vaccine-preventable diseases (including blindness, sterility, deafness, congenital birth defects, etc), you’d be perfectly happy with hundreds of deaths, and tens of thousands of injuries that would result in a return of these diseases?

    How exactly do you plan on preventing the spread of disease without vaccines? Please, explain that one.

    Like

  180. December 17, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    @Chris – when a troll has to resort to personal insults, it knows its arguments hold no water.

    Like

  181. December 17, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    @Chris – it isn’t even that that vaccines are just “a little” less dangerous than the diseases they prevent, they are a magnitude or more safer (serious reactions in 1 in a million or 1 in 10 million) cases, whereas the diseases they prevent can have serious side-effects (beyond, you know, the actual disease itself) in as few as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 cases – why just this past year in France, of the 25,000 cases of measles, nearly 1/4 of them required hospitalization….compare that to the very small number of serious vaccine reactions & you see exactly how hollow an argument this troll is trying to make.

    Again, it goes back to the Nirvana Fallacy – that somehow, if vaccines aren’t 100% safe or 100% effective, then they are 0% safe or 0% effective – that’s what “Please” is trying to argue – hence it is a dishonest argument.

    Like

  182. December 17, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    @Please, there in lies the flaw in your argument. After vigorous study and investigation of all adverse events reported to VAERS, there has not been enough evidence to show that permanent harm and/or deaths have actually been attributed to vaccines, that is why they are not withdrawn. In order for a medical treatment/drug to be withdrawn, there needs to be an actual link to the averse event reported and the medical treatment/drug in question, enough to link it to said drug irrefutably and in significant enough numbers to make it irrefutable.

    In the case of vaccines, the deaths and injuries reported can clearly be linked to something else. Very rarely is there a possibility that it could have been attributed to the vaccine, but there has never been a conclusive link and since there is not conclusive evidence of harm proven to be from vaccines, they will continue to be used. There are proven deaths and permanent injury from diseases that the vaccines prevent. Our history is riddled with evidence of death and permanent disability after VPD. Vaccines prevent hundreds of thousands of deaths and injuries every year, we have proven data for that.

    It is my personal belief, those children who are vaccinated who develop asthma, allergies, and any other issue that the anti-vaccine crowd tries to blame on vaccines, that these children, who have weaker or possibly compromised immune function, would have been the ones who would have died of VPDs had they not had the opportunity to be vaccinated against them and if the VPDs were not kept in check by community immunity due to vacciantion. Blanket accusations and fear mongering such as your has no place in a reasoned discussion. If that is all you have, then you need to take your argument elsewhere.

    Like

  183. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Chris,

    “all you have do is provide title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show children are disabled and die from vaccines more than from the diseases they prevent. “

    Um….no I don’t, if a vaccine is dangerous, it is dangerous, period.

    “Why do you think insults is a valid form of evidence? Answer the questions on the relative risk between vaccine and disease with real data.”

    They aren’t insults they are observations. Lawrence’s last rambling made no sense whatsoever. Since when did I promote Chicken Pox parties etc?

    And again Lawrence makes no sense….

    “@Please – cars hurt people all the time, are you advocating that we ban cars?”
    Yes Lawrence, if a car is proven to have a defect that hurts people, then they should fix it or stop making them.

    “How exactly do you plan on preventing the spread of disease without vaccines? Please, explain that one.”

    That has nothing to do with a vaccine that is proven to kill and injure people. Would you have kept the drugs that have been pulled from the market for killing people for the same reasoning?

    Like

  184. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Lawrence:

    @Chris – when a troll has to resort to personal insults, it knows its arguments hold no water.

    And he/she has been doing it for quite a while. First by claiming I said something when I did not, and then with variations of this: “Just what I expected….you all hate children. 36 deaths in two years and all you can do is make excuses.”

    I don’t know if I am being insulting when I substitute the numbers for actual disease mortality and post it back to Please/Joe/Cia/Thingy.

    Like

  185. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Did you read the document about the vaccine in question in regards to this conversation Lara?

    Like

  186. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Please/Joe/Cia/Thingy:

    Um….no I don’t, if a vaccine is dangerous, it is dangerous, period.

    And then we must believe you, and that the diseases are safe? Just because you say so?

    Doesn’t work that way. You are making the claim that a vaccine is dangerous, and I have just given you actual data that the diseases kill hundreds of thousands per year. You must show that I am wrong, and your are right with actual evidence.

    So, please provide actual scientific data that a vaccine kills has many kids per year that die from both measles and pertussis.

    Like

  187. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Lara,

    “In the case of vaccines, the deaths and injuries reported can clearly be linked to something else. Very rarely is there a possibility that it could have been attributed to the vaccine, but there has never been a conclusive link and since there is not conclusive evidence of harm proven to be from vaccines, they will continue to be used.”

    Are you out of your mind? More denial….pull your head out of the sand Lara! Wake up! What is your excuse for stating this BS? Vaccines don’t kill and injure people, it’s always something else?? I am speechless.

    Like

  188. December 17, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    @Chris – I’m not even sure what Please is arguing anymore – except that it has latched on to the “Nirvana Fallacy” as its prime point – that if vaccines are not 100% effective or 100% safe, then they must be 0% effective & 0% safe….a very insipid argument to be sure.

    If a treatment or drug is found to be unsafe by the various regulatory bodies, it is most certainly pulled from the market or severely restricted in its utilization – so, if Please can point us to the evidence where vaccines have (with very few exceptions – like the Rota vaccine, for example – where the regulatory system worked) met this criteria, but were kept on the market, it will have no problem providing such evidence, right?

    You keep throwing out the word “proof” but I don’t think it means what you think it means – where is your “proof?”

    Like

  189. December 17, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    @please – wow, you’re really gone down the rabbit hole on this one. Given that there are very well known contra-indications for vaccines (like those with a compromised immune system or other variables), we do already know that not everyone can be vaccinated safely – which is why those people don’t get vaccinated….again with the Nirvana Fallacy – you must be an expert in it, since you articulate it so well.

    Like

  190. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Please: “Did you read the document about the vaccine in question in regards to this conversation Lara?”

    I did, which why I am asking you how that vaccine is more dangerous than one of the diseases it is for, pertussis. I noticed that it was 36 that may or may not have been associated with the vaccine, and was noted in over 24 million doses. Do tell us what percentage is 36/24000000. Is it a rate greater than death from actually getting pertussis? Do tell us how 36 is more than 300000. Because the latter is how many die per year from pertussis, and since your scary number is for two years it should be if 36 is more than 600000.

    Like

  191. December 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    @Please – then provide your definition of “safe.”

    Like

  192. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    @Please- Do you understand cause and effect? If you disable a stoplight, accidents will happen. If you destroy a guardrail, people will fall off the edge. If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.

    Like

  193. December 17, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    @Please – hmmmm…..more insults, huh? I guess you are unaware that Chris’ child suffered from serious side-effects from a vaccine-preventable disease, aren’t you?

    I believe it would be evil to allow the ravages of vaccine-preventable diseases to refill the schools for the deaf & blind, to allow tens of thousands of children to die from congenital birth defects, or perhaps we should bring back the iron lungs as well?

    Seriously, you have a real problem, and it isn’t us.

    Like

  194. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    More lies from Lawrence….”that if vaccines are not 100% effective or 100% safe, then they must be 0% effective & 0% safe….a very insipid argument to be sure.”

    I never said that, more lies from the people who accuse everybody else as liars.

    Like

  195. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Gray,
    “If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.”

    When did I say to pull all vaccines? Are you a liar too? Twistin my words? That’s what you always accuse people of Gray. Are you twisting mine?

    Like

  196. December 17, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    @Please – then please provide your definition of “safe.”

    Like

  197. Lara Lohne
    December 17, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    @Please, I did. I have no data that proves that document is genuine, is it available on the manufacturers web site for public viewing?

    You are arguing over a vaccine that is not even used in the US. And while yes, 36 deaths in two years is not anything anyone is overjoyed to hear about (you do realize when broken down into annual numbers it is just 18 per year?) compared to the numbers that are injured and die from vaccine preventable diseases each and every year, not spread out over two years (in the tens and hundreds of thousands) those 36 deaths, are from a statistical stand point, insignificant. Please pay very close attention to the words I chose there.

    Nothing in this world is 100% safe, nothing is. To pretend that it is is ridiculous. If we applied your argument to everything in the world that is not 100% safe, we would never do anything, ever. Our population would die out because we would no longer give birth. Do you know how dangerous that is to the mother? Nobody would have sex anymore, people die from heart attacks during it. Nobody would eat, you could choke on your food. Don’t take a bath you might drown, don’t take a shower, you might slip and fall. Don’t go outside, a large object might land on you and crush you. Don’t drive your car, you might get in an accident. Don’t cross the street, you might get run over…

    There are many, many things that have a much higher potential for harm then vaccines, why are you not up in arms against them, because vaccines save lives, what do those other things that people can live without do for us?

    Like

  198. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Please :
    Gray,
    “If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.”
    When did I say to pull all vaccines? Are you a liar too? Twistin my words? That’s what you always accuse people of Gray. Are you twisting mine?

    Here you go:

    Please :
    Please prove to me that vaccines don’t harm and don’t kill people.
    Please prove to me that vaccines are safe.
    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies.

    You never mentioned specific vaccinations.

    Like

  199. December 17, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    @Please – until you provide the definition of “safe” that you are using (or unsafe for that matter), you are arguing in circles.

    So, what is your definition of “safe?”

    Like

  200. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Lawrence, and my kid was injured by a vaccine. Do you care?

    Like

  201. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Gray…..I never said…

    “If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.”

    Please provide the link where I said that comment.

    Like

  202. December 17, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    @Please – answer the question, what is your definition of safe?

    Oh, and please point us to the VAERS entry & when did you file your claim with the Vaccine Court?

    Like

  203. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Please :
    Gray…..I never said…
    “If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.”
    Please provide the link where I said that comment.

    I said that, it was quoting you quoting me! Don’t you have any form of memory? Don’t you realize I can simply scroll up! And note that I didn’t say “all vaccines”, either, that was your word, not mine!

    Like

  204. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Gray.

    “Please :
    Please prove to me that vaccines don’t harm and don’t kill people.
    Please prove to me that vaccines are safe.
    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies. ”

    That’s your proof that I said to pull vaccines?

    Als, we are on another topic now about a specific vaccine.

    Like

  205. Lara Lohne
    December 17, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Please :
    Lawrence, and my kid was injured by a vaccine. Do you care?

    I that ‘injuriy’ is autism, you are the one in denial, since autism is with a person from birth. If your child was actually injured from a vaccine, then we’d love to review your VAERS report and your report from the vaccine court too, no doubt you won your case, as you seem so convinced of your truth.

    Like

  206. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Please :
    Gray.
    “Please :
    Please prove to me that vaccines don’t harm and don’t kill people.
    Please prove to me that vaccines are safe.
    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies. ”
    That’s your proof that I said to pull vaccines?
    Als, we are on another topic now about a specific vaccine.

    So you admit you have no point. Thank you.

    Like

  207. December 17, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    @Lara / Gray – since Please won’t provide the standard of definition it is using & continues to argue in circles in a very dishonest way, this troll has no intention of engaging in a legitimate conversation…..

    Like

  208. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Gray…

    I can scroll up to and here’s what you said,

    “If you pull vaccines, you increase the risk of people getting diseases. It’s as simple as that.”

    I never said to pull vaccines either….so you are still twiting my words. And I used the word “all” in my comment because we were then talking about on specific vaccine at that time.

    Like

  209. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Yes it is dishonest to remove a vaccine from the marlet that kills and injures.

    Like

  210. Please
    December 17, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Lara….you don’t care…..here is your response….

    “that ‘injuriy’ is autism, you are the one in denial, since autism is with a person from birth. If your child was actually injured from a vaccine, then we’d love to review your VAERS report and your report from the vaccine court too, no doubt you won your case, as you seem so convinced of your truth.”

    Like

  211. Diantha
    December 17, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Got it! In mercurypoisoningnews.com, I found that the ingredients of thimerosal are thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide, ethanol (antifreeze), and ethyl MERCURIC CHLORIDE! I found the French study on Bumex published recently that found that giving them Bumex to make them pee out the chlorine in their cells is in many English articles on Google already. I hypothesize, as I have already said, that the Bumex grabs onto the chlorine molecules in the ethyl mercuric chloride in the thimerosal that was in the vaccines the autistic children had gotten, and makiing them pee out the mercury that is attached to the chlorine molecules is what is producing the remarkable improvements in the autistic symptoms of the children in the study. Science really is marching on, as long as it avoids mentioning the M word or the V word!

    Like

  212. December 17, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    @Please – and you’re still not answering the question(s)…..

    Like

  213. December 17, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    @Please – wow, really? Since you can’t answer even basic questions, you play the “sympathy” card? How about sympathy for those that suffered from real side-effects from vaccine preventable diseases?

    If you have a child that suffered an adverse vaccine reaction, you should have no problem at all pointing us to the VAERS entry & also let us know when you filed your claim in Vaccine Court, right?

    For those very few that do suffer a severe vaccine reaction, they have my sympathies – for those attempting to link vaccines to autism or other side-effects with no basis in scientific fact, the science doesn’t back them up.

    Like

  214. December 17, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    @Please – no, I asked a very simple question. What is your definition of “safe?” Why the problem answering the question?

    Like

  215. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    @Please- Thousands of children have died from vaccine-preventable diseases, and you spend your time nitpicking our words! What are you asking us to do? Why are you here? What do you want?

    Like

  216. December 17, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    @Please – if your story is true, again, you’ll have no problem providing proof by pointing us to the appropriate entry in VAERS & also when you filed your claim in the Vaccine Court, right?

    Like

  217. Chris
    December 17, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Lawrence:

    How about sympathy for those that suffered from real side-effects from vaccine preventable diseases?

    Like my son. What I get from folks like Please/Joe/Cia/Thingy is that it is survival of the fittest eugenics argument.

    … Diantha and Paige, along with Thingy are spamming something.

    Like

  218. December 17, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    @Chris – Please is someone’s sock puppet, can’t tell for sure at this point. The inability to answer a simple question is a dead-giveaway.

    Like

  219. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    @Please- What are you asking us to do? Why are you here? What do you want?

    Like

  220. December 17, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    @Chris – and there goes “Please….” who would have thought a request to answer a simple question or two would elicit such venom.

    One last try, perhaps?

    Care to answer my questions? I’d be happy just to get your definition of safe…..as it applies to the thread above.

    Like

  221. lilady
    December 17, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    According to yet another crank poster…

    “Got it! In mercurypoisoningnews.com, I found that the ingredients of thimerosal are thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide, ethanol (antifreeze), and ethyl MERCURIC CHLORIDE!”

    I consumed several glasses of ethanol (antifreeze) at a party over the weekend and I’M STILL ALIVE !!!!!

    That “Ignore Crank, Troll, Sockie Bin” is quite full now. 🙂

    Like

  222. December 17, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    Diantha, ethanol is not antifreeze, it is alcohol. You know, rum, vodka, that kind of stuff, and yes, rubbing alcohol also is ethanol. The main ingredient in antifreeze is actually ethylene glycol, not the same as ethanol.

    On another note, how do you rationalize your hypothesis for children who received vaccines that no longer contain thimerosal and still have autism? And what about the number of children who had not been vaccinated prior to autism characteristics emerging? Studies have shown they are there, among the unvaccinated population, in the same percentages that they are present in the vaccinated population.

    Like

  223. Lara Lohne
    December 17, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    @Please, you don’t know what I feel, actually, so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t pretend to.

    You see, I have a child with autism, he is my youngest of six and the only one of my children that has autism and the only one who was not fully vaccinated according to the schedule, and he was born in 2007, well after the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines. My son had autism from birth, he did have regression that was a gradual process and began about 14 months of age. He is fully vaccinated now, minus this year’s flu vaccine.

    If a person has experience raising children, they will notice, in a child that goes on to develop autism, there are differences in that child from birth. That is why autism is not a vaccine injury, and no amount of biomedical interventions is going to change that, because it is due to how the brain in these individuals is constructed and that is due to genetic factors. In my son’s case, that genetic factor would be from his father. While my partner is not currently diagnosed, he displays a significant number of very similar autistic characteristics, and when he thinks back on it, he has all his life. Many of the genetic factors that contribute to a child having autism are de novo mutations, meaning they are new in the child and that is why it’s possible to have a child with autism and have no previous family history of it. That is still genetic though.

    The fact is I care very deeply, because this affects my son, my partner and it will for the rest of their lives. What is hurting them the most is all this focus on a scientifically unfounded hypothesis that has been disproven, multiple times. They need assistance now, as do all children and adults on the spectrum. They aren’t going anywhere and as we continue to push focus on causes rather then services to help now, these people fall through the cracks and get left behind. Your child is among that number, if in fact you are claiming that his/her vaccine injury is autism.

    If you came here looking for support and/or pity/sympathy, this is not the place for it. We are discussing vaccinations and the vast amount of good they do, and have done for generations now. This isn’t about you or your child, so please stop trying to make it so.

    Like

  224. December 17, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    @Lara / Lilady – ignore the trolls….it isn’t worth the time to engage them.

    Like

  225. Stephan D
    December 17, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Do Vaccines contain the active ingredients of antifreeze?

    The most common form of antifreeze contains ethylene glycol and we will discuss that shortly.

    A less common form of antifreeze contains propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is sometimes used as a food additive and the CDC says that propylene glycol is ‘“generally recognized as safe” (GRAS) additive for foods and medications. Propylene glycol rarely causes toxic effects, and then only under very unusual circumstances.

    One unusual circumstance the CDC notes is a case of propylene glycol poisoning under a condition of high dose absorption. This is not likely applicable to vaccination. The CDC also notes that skin sensitization (allergy) can result. Given that allergies and asthma are elevated in vaccinated children the injection of propylene glycol may be connected.

    Some vaccines do contain a Propylene Glycol also known as Polyethylene Glycol.

    Several places on the Internet list antifreeze (ethylene glycol) as an ingredient of vaccines. Other sources say “no” there is no antifreeze, meaning no ethylene glycol, in vaccines. The confusion arises due to a similarity of names and the fact that Ethylene Glycol is the name of a class of compounds, one of which, 2-Phenoxyethanol, is sometimes included as an ingredient in vaccines. Two synonyms for 2-Phenoxyethanol are ethylene glycol phenyl ether and ethylene glycol monophenyl ether.

    So maybe what we should be asking is the question, “Does ethylene glycol phenyl ether (2-Phenoxyethanol) contain ethylene glycol? Ethylene glycol phenyl ether does contain ethylene glycol as an integral part of its chemical formula. Ethylene glycol, HOCH2CH2OH, is the simplest member of the glycol family. However, ethylene glycol phenyl ether is not used in antifreeze and has a different chemical formula than the ethylene glycol used in antifreeze.

    So, as far as answering, Yes or No, to the question, “do vaccines contain ethylene glycol”, feel free to answer whatever you think best. Either way, you will have lots of company.

    A cautious answer is that some vaccines contain 2-Phenoxyethanol a.k.a. ethylene glycol phenyl ether which is somewhat different than the ethylene glycol used in antifreeze.

    However, like many other compounds used in vaccines, the safety of this chemical when injected into human bodies is in question. The compound known as 2-Phenoxyethanol or just plain phenoxyethanol is listed by a former FDA Investigator as: Phenoxyethanol: EDF Suspected – developmental toxicant, reproductive toxicant (aka: Antifreeze). Less hazardous than most chemicals in 3 ranking systems.

    Most vaccines must be kept within a fairly precise temperature range to remain effective, and you can’t tell if a vaccine has been overheated or frozen just by looking at it.

    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that poor refrigeration wastes hundreds of thousands of doses of vaccine every year.

    They reported in an edition of the journal Vaccine on their successful use of common food additives – glycerin, propylene glycol and polyethylene glycol – to protect vaccines from freezing.

    While the vaccines are being protected by antifreeze, studies that prove that vaccines are harmful to our children are buried beneath walls of denial.

    Like

  226. Gray Falcon
    December 17, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    Once again, someone fails to understand the definition of dosage.

    Like

  227. novalox
    December 17, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    @stephan d

    Have you ever heard “The dose is the poison?”

    And I bet that it is one of the usual sock-puppeting trolls again.

    Like

  228. December 18, 2012 at 3:23 am

    Public Health Canada says 1 in 100k vaccine doses results in a serious adverse event including death.

    Not everyone who claims injury is mistaken or lying. All medical interventions have a risk, people die from OTC meds, and even have the wrong medications administered to the point that it is a quantified risk factor. Wrong side surgeries and even wrong side amputations occur with measurable regularity. It is scientifically and statistically impossible that every single dose of the near half billion of vaccines administered annually in the US is manufactured, packaged, labeled, stored, transported, prepared for injection and injected properly with the correct dose to the correct patient. No responsible medical professional would claim that it is possible to perform even 10,000 error free insulin, B12, or saline shots without some type of mistake. Google the recent Triad “sterile” wipe recall- you could do everything correct and be undercut by contaminated wipes. The bottom line is that you need to carefully examine any medication prescribed to you or your family- check the label for expiration dates, google product codes for recalls, if you are in a hospital setting confirm and crosscheck the paperwork to be certain you are not recieving a drug intended for another patient. Dennis Quaids’ twins almost died from a medical management mistake in one of the finest hospitals in the world. My personal physician is adamant that we never accept an injection that was not prepared in front of you.

    Like

  229. December 18, 2012 at 3:56 am

    World Health Organization documents concerning vaccine injury assesments-
    2 page “cheat sheet”

    One issue is that the medical profession uses terminology determined by the Brighton Collaboration to assign quantity ranges to descriptive terms:

    “What is the frequency of occurrence of this adverse event? Very common (>1/10); common (>1/100); uncommon (>1/1000);rare (>1/10 000); very rare (<1/10 000), or not previously reported"

    The average person may not think something that occurs 9/100,000 as "very rare".

    57 page manual

    Like

  230. December 18, 2012 at 10:07 am

    @Emery – not sure exactly what you are getting at, because looking at those documents, it just proves that adverse reactions are normally extremely mild & serious adverse reactions are exceedingly rare.

    Like

  231. lilady
    December 18, 2012 at 10:31 am

    @ Emery: How many deaths in Canada were attributed to receiving the 2009-2010 H1N1 pandemic flu vaccine?

    How many deaths in Canada were confirmed as being caused by contracting the H1N1 Pandemic Flu?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_in_Canada

    The 2009 flu pandemic in Canada is part of an epidemic in 2009 of a new strain of influenza A virus subtype H1N1 causing what has been commonly called swine flu. In Canada, roughly 10% of the populace (or 3.5 million) has been infected with the virus,[2][3] with 428 confirmed deaths (as of 20 February 2010);[1]

    Like

  232. December 18, 2012 at 10:46 am

    @lilady – I love it when these people trot out various official government booklets, papers, etc, which do show adverse reactions to vaccines (yes, they do happen, but by all accounts the vast majority of reactions are minor & serious reactions are extremely rare).

    What is also shows is that adverse reactions are tracked, that there are robust surveillance programs in place to make sure vaccines are safe (and determine the cause of reactions, if possible – which, the research above, shows that incorrect handling is a bigger problem than anything with the actual vaccine itself), and regulatory agencies are both aware and active in maintaining vaccine safety.

    From from being “damning” evidence of anything, this in fact shows how safe the vaccine programs are.

    Like

  233. Rational Antivax
    December 21, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    If someone disabled a traffic light at a busy intersection, would the resulting accidents be their fault? By pulling the vaccine, you would be deliberately putting people at risk. Learn some basic ethics.

    You’re the disabler, Gray. You’re an infection promoter for crying out loud. One common mistake by vaccinators is the use of metaphors that do NOT even make sense. Had you not pull the OPV out of the USG, people here will be like the polio-saturated India.

    Like

  234. Forsythia
    December 21, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    @ GF and Novalox:
    OK, the dose is the poison. Some people are more sensitive to poisons and normally harmless substances like peanuts than others. There is no “safe” dose of mercury or aluminum, but some people react more immediately and seriously to them than others, when exposed to even minute doses. You probably wouldn’t deny (well, you probably would if you thought you could get away with it) that some people, sensitized to peanut protein by vaccines (peanut allergy didn’t exist several decades ago, and is another condition that just goes up and up in numbers the more and more vaccines they give), die if they even inhale a particle of peanut dust. So what does it mean in cases like that or in cases of vaccine reaction to say the dose is the poison?

    Like

  235. Chris
    December 21, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Forsythia, please post your plan to prevent the 300000 deaths from pertussis worldwide. Be sure to provide evidence that it works, especially in developing countries.

    Like

  236. December 21, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    @Forsynthia – are you seriously trying to say that vaccines caused peanut allergies? By what mechanism does that happen? Where are your citations?

    It can’t have anything to do with peanuts being a very new food source for humans, could it?

    And Aluminum, really? It’s only one of the most abundant elements on the planet & babies receive more aluminum from their mothers’ breast milk than they get with all vaccines combined.

    Like

  237. December 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Forsythia, trust me peanut allergies existed decades ago. All one needs to do is check PubMed:

    Ann Allergy. 1952 Nov-Dec;10(6):690-7.
    Allergenicity of modified and processed foodstuffs. III. Peanut: Non-allergenicity of peanut oil.

    Ann Allergy. 1975 Feb;34(2):71-6.
    Multiple food allergy.

    The latter actually has an abstract which ends with: “The common food allergens were such everyday foods as milk, chocolate, corn, egg, tomato, peanut, and citrus fruits.”

    And now for this statement you said: “sensitized to peanut protein by vaccines”, that you need to provide a citation.

    Now I did mix up this thread with the other about WHO and safely preventing diseases like pertussis, diphtheria, tetanus and other diseases in the third world (and I was also on my tablet). So, I do need to ask you two more questions:

    1: Please tell us which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Don’t mention influenza because about half do not have thimerosal.

    2: Please tell us how exactly how anything in the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the toxins created by actual bacteria. For instance the pertussis toxin from actually getting pertussis (which is fairly common), and one of the most potent toxins on this planet: tetanospasmin. Make sure you back it up with scientific documentation, much like I did showing that peanut allergies have been around for decades.

    Like

  238. December 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    I’m curious how many decades is ‘several’ because I actually went to school and grew up with kids who had peanut and other nut allergies. My ex-husband is allergic to hazelnuts and his dad is allergic to all nuts. So, how many decades is several decades? If it’s more then 4, sorry your data is incorrect, because I’m older then 4 decades and peanut allergies and other nut allergies definitely existed then. It’s really funny how every allergy known to man kind (and we are finding new ones all the time by the way) is attributed to vaccinations rather then just a better medical understanding and better testing for said allergy. Do you know what else has gone up in the past several decades? Prices, inflation, cost of living! EGADS! It must be because of vaccines! *end sarcasm* Correlation does not equal causation, and in this particular case, you haven’t even established correlation.

    Like

  239. December 21, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    @Lara – people didn’t start consuming Peanuts until the mid-to-late 19th Century, which is why peanut allergies are still fairly common. Let evolution take its course over the next several hundred years & we, as a species, will get used to it & you’ll see the majority of the allergies disappear…..

    Like

  240. Tom
    December 21, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    It’s bad enough there is aluminum in our environment that we cannot change…why the heck would we INJECT more??? Just because it is abundant in the environment doesn’t mean it is good for you!!

    The problem with Lawrence’s logic is that any toxins in your Breast Milk will go through the gut which will then decide whether to let it into the bloodstream or not. The gut also decides how much should be allow into your system. When you inject toxins via vaccine, you are bypassing the body’s discrimination/defensive system (the gut) and putting it directly into the bloodstream in the full amount.

    Infants’ exposure to aluminum from vaccines and breast milk during the first 6 months
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20010978

    Like

  241. December 21, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    The kidneys filter and cleanse the blood, not the gut. Your gut cannot determine what is and isn’t harmful, otherwise nobody could be poisoned by food and no oral medications would work either, as many of them, if not most, could be considered ‘toxic’. If your digestive system can break it down, and it can be absorbed into the blood stream, it will be, your gut does not discriminate that. If it can’t be absorbed it continues on until it’s excreted as fecal matter. The contents that made it out of your gut, into your blood stream then get filtered by the kidneys to eliminate toxic poisons. Only things that are deemed actually hazardous will be eliminated, therefore, if it makes it through your kidneys, good probability that it isn’t toxic to you. Perhaps a few more basic biology courses are in order.

    Like

  242. Chris
    December 21, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Dorea is a researcher who is anti-vax (I learned that here). This is one is many studies where he conflates environmental with the small doses in vaccines.

    Tom, now you can tell us exactly what in the DTaP is more toxic than the toxins created by the actual bacteria, like the pertussis toxin that has a habit of killing babies. Make sure you provide real scientific evidence that aluminum is much worse than tetanospasmin, diphtheria toxin and pertussis toxin.

    Like

  243. Rational Antivax
    December 21, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Lara Loco and co.,

    The kidneys filter and cleanse the blood, not the gut. Your gut cannot determine what is and isn’t harmful, otherwise nobody could be poisoned by food and no oral medications would work either, as many of them, if not most, could be considered ‘toxic’.

    How I wish vaccinators could stop proselytizing new idiots.

    First pass effect.

    You would realize just how clueless and dangerous these vaccinators are. Now you want these infection promoters to take care of your child?

    Like

  244. Chris
    December 22, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Okay, Tom, Forsythia, and the rest of the sock puppets, I saw this story: ‘It was hideous’ – family’s tetanus agony.

    Now really, do tell us with actual scientific evidence how anything in the DTaP is so much more dangerous than tetanospasmin, from the wiki article:

    Tetanus toxin is an extremely potent neurotoxin produced by the vegetative cell of Clostridium tetani[1] in anaerobic conditions, causing tetanus. It has no known function for clostridia in the soil environment where they are normally encountered. It is also called spasmogenic toxin, tetanospasmin or abbreviated to TeTx or TeNT. The LD50 of this toxin has been measured to be approximately 1 ng/kg, making it second only to Botulinum toxin D as the deadliest toxin in the world.

    Oh, and to make it more fun: there is not such thing as herd immunity to tetanus. And no, toddlers do not know enough to stay out of the dirt.

    Like

  245. lilady
    December 22, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Show me which vaccine contains peanuts or peanut oil:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

    I see that the pig farmer at whale.to has his *usual* vaccine conspiracy anti-vaccine websites up that “claim” peanuts/peanut oil is a super secret hidden ingredient in vaccines. So which anti-vaccine website is the source of the troll’s information?

    I used to teach my patients about the foreign protein in peanuts and the foreign protein in the saliva of ticks, mosquitoes and other biting insects that cause an inflammatory reaction…and rarely cause severe reactions/anaphylaxis in some people. Here’s a freebie Immunology 101 article about peanut allergies:

    http://www.carolinaasthma.com/PDFs/PEANUTPAPER.pdf

    At Lara: Do you know you *missed* an important event (male pattern baldness), where the incidence has *gone up* dramatically during the last few decades?

    I’m just ignoring Thingy’s sockie. She is a delusional, germ phobic, pathological liar totally unemployable in spite of her claim that she is a nurse who worked in a hospital.

    Like

  246. Rational Antivax
    December 22, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    How about sympathy for those that suffered from real side-effects from vaccine preventable diseases?

    Like my son. What I get from folks like Please/Joe/Cia/Thingy is that it is survival of the fittest eugenics argument.

    Oh come on Chris, you must be kidding me. You’re asking for sympathy for your damaged child who you had intentionally exposed to natural infection?

    Learn from your mistake. I feel sorry for your child though.

    Like

  247. Rational Antivax
    December 22, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Larewnce, Chris ,

    How about sympathy for those that suffered from real side-effects from vaccine preventable diseases?

    Like my son. What I get from folks like Please/Joe/Cia/Thingy is that it is survival of the fittest eugenics argument.

    Oh come on Chris, you must be kidding me. You’re asking for sympathy for your damaged child who you had intentionally exposed to natural infection?

    Learn from your mistake. I feel sorry for your child though.

    Like

  248. December 23, 2012 at 3:23 am

    Thingy (who should be banned for personal attacks): Oh come on Chris, you must be kidding me. You’re asking for sympathy for your damaged child who you had intentionally exposed to natural infection?

    Prove it. There was no vaccine for rotavirus in 1989. So now you need to provide the exact location and action I did to give him that infection. Explain what knowledge you have of my actions over twenty years ago, and what I needed to do to prevent that disease.

    And by location I want actual street addresses. Prove it with evidence, or just admit you are making it up to either upset me, or show that you have been stalking me for decades.

    Like

  249. lilady
    December 23, 2012 at 3:48 am

    I thought Thingy was banned Chris. Why is she back here using another sockie to launch vile attacks on other posters?

    She’s a pathological liar who claimed she is a nurse who worked in a hospital, who has stated the most vile things to me about my deceased son who was born with a genetic disorder and multiple profound intellectual and physical impairments. She has accused you, Lara and me of causing our childrens’ disabilities and stated many times our babies are “vaccine damaged”.

    G-d forbid that this odious cyberstalking troll has any contact with any children anywhere.

    Like

  250. Rational Antivax
    December 23, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Here’s what you said Chris,

    Now let me change the accusation you made against me above, and point it towards you: “ what I expected….you all hate children. 139000 deaths in one year year and all you can do is make excuses.”

    Now why are you making lame excuses if I have treated you as a deliberate infection promoter the same way you’ve treated these deaths as intentional. You and your friends keep saying this all the time, that if someone refuses the vaccine then he’s preferring natural infection hence your repetitive argument comparing deaths between the two OPTIONS. You are clearly suffering from reaction formation. Your child got infected because of your own carelessness or you had intentionally immunized them naturally and got some nasty outcome. Which one is it Chris?

    People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Just saying.

    Like

  251. Rational Antivax
    December 23, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Explain what knowledge you have of my actions over twenty years ago, and what I needed to do to prevent that disease.

    That’s easy Chris. Since the rotavirus vaccine wasn’t available at that time, the only source of immunizing agent was the natural infection itself hence you allowed your child to be “primed” and may be will “prevent” rotavirus re-infection in the future. You didn’t like what had happened? Well, that’s what you get for being part of the herd.

    Like

  252. lilady
    December 23, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    Just go away Thingy. You’re a vile odious troll, a pathological liar, who is germ phobic, clueless about basic science and totally unemployable.

    Still claiming you are a nurse Thingy?

    Still claiming you worked in a hospital Thingy?

    What job?

    What hospital?

    Like

  253. Narad
    December 23, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    I found the French study on Bumex published recently that found that giving them Bumex to make them pee out the chlorine in their cells is in many English articles on Google already. I hypothesize, as I have already said, that the Bumex grabs onto the chlorine molecules in the ethyl mercuric chloride in the thimerosal that was in the vaccines the autistic children had gotten, and makiing them pee out the mercury that is attached to the chlorine molecules is what is producing the remarkable improvements in the autistic symptoms of the children in the study. Science really is marching on, as long as it avoids mentioning the M word or the V word!

    The notion that Diantha = Paige = Arie = Penny = Cynthia Parker could come to the conclusion that this has anything to do with chelation is astonishing.

    Like

  254. Chris
    December 23, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Oh, deer. Thingy is both illiterate and delusional. Just ban her please!

    Like

  255. Rational Antivax
    December 23, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Reaction formation- from Wikipedia

    In psychoanalytic theory, reaction formation is a defensive process (defense mechanism) in which anxiety-producing or unacceptable emotions and impulses are mastered by exaggeration (hypertrophy) of the directly opposing tendency.[1][2]

    Where reaction-formation takes place, it is usually assumed that the original, rejected impulse does not vanish, but persists, unconscious, in its original infantile form.[2] Thus, where love is experienced as a reaction formation against hate, we cannot say that love is substituted for hate, because the original aggressive feelings still exist underneath the affectionate exterior that merely masks the hate to hide it from awareness.[3]

    Oh yes, vaccinators are great pretenders.

    Like

  256. Rational Antivax
    December 23, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Narad,

    Feeling lonely back in RI? If you guys are calling me out, make sure you have the courtesy to unblock me first so I can respond otherwise it’s impolite. You know heavy bags don’t punch back. Do mind your place, ok?

    Like

  257. Narad
    December 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Did someone address you?

    Like

  258. Rational Antivax
    December 23, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Yes. It was lilady.

    Like

  259. December 23, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Just keep ignoring the insane troll, hopefully it will be gone before too long…..

    Like

  260. lilady
    December 23, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @ Narad: That preposterous “theory” about eliminating *toxic* ethyl mercury, proposed by the sockies is ridiculous.

    Organomercury compounds (Thimerosal) do not accumulate as elemental Hg and methyl mercury do. Ethyl mercury is excreted through the *gut*…which is not the urinary tract.

    Like

  261. Narad
    December 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    lilady :
    @ Narad: That preposterous “theory” about eliminating *toxic* ethyl mercury, proposed by the sockies is ridiculous.

    Ah, but Cia’s is truly special. Her reasoning, if one can call it that, appears to be this: (1) Something having to do with chlorine was reported to have a positive effect on ASD symptoms. (2) Therefore, it must be chelation of some form. (3) Organomercury chlorides are employed in the manufacture of thimerosal. (4) Obviously, this diuretic is some sort of mercury vacuum-cleaner. Q.E.D.

    Points missed: (a) thimerosal does not contain any chlorine atoms; (b) the action of bumetanide is to reduce intracellular levels of free chloride. The imagined mercury must have hatched some sort of devious plan to reassemble itself into its original ingredients.

    It’s a masterpiece of addlement.

    P.S. Also, compound fail on this one: “sodium hydroxide, ethanol (antifreeze),” including the failure to say “lye!”

    Like

  262. December 24, 2012 at 9:18 am

    @Narad – because of their lack of a basic understanding of Science, these anti-vaccine individuals grab on to something that sounds “pseudo-scientific” and try to bend it around whatever theory is popular in the “biomedical” community this week.

    Like

  263. Lily
    December 25, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    L and N,
    The form of mercury used in thimerosal is mercuric chloride, which is obtained by the effects of chlorine on mercury.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(II)_chloride

    Like

  264. December 26, 2012 at 8:59 am

    @Lily – you still don’t have any clue what the difference between a compound and an element are, do you?

    Like

  265. Chris
    December 26, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Lily, please tell us which vaccine in the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Don’t mention influenza because about half do not have thimerosal.

    This is the chemical formula: C9H9HgNaO2S

    Where is the chloride part?

    Like

  266. Chris
    December 26, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Unfortunately the HTML for subscripts did not work, but molecular equation is at:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

    There is no chlorine involved.

    Like

  267. Narad
    December 26, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    The form of mercury used in thimerosal is mercuric chloride, which is obtained by the effects of chlorine on mercury.

    Cynthia, enough with the sockpuppetry. The absurdity of the bumetanide “chelation” idea has already been explained to you in terms that can’t get much simpler. It inhibits the sodium-potassium-chloride cotransporter. That’s it. It doesn’t suck any mercury out of anywhere. The chloride is already ionic. Your “hypothesis” is frankly laughable.

    Like

  268. Snapdragon
    December 27, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Yesterday’s issue of Infection Control Today (Dec. 26) had a story in which critical care nurse Karen Higgins was reluctant to get a flu shot because of her asthma and tendency to react badly to shots. She was compelled to get one, and reacted with severe respiratory distress, having to go to the ER and spend the next week in the hospital. She’s the co-president of National Nurses United, and is against measures commonly taken at hospitals on the theory that they might reduce transmission of the flu. Many nurses are aghast at the strong-arm tactics being used to make them get an often-disabling vaccine, and are desperately writing to Age of Autism and The Refusers asking if it will reduce reactions if they put ice packs on the injection site to slow down the vaccine’s absorption into the body.

    Like

  269. Jena
    December 27, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    New study shows if infants get U.S. recommended shot schedule, it greatly increases mortality among them.

    http://het.sagepub.com/content/31/10/1012.full

    Like

  270. Jena
    December 27, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Another study on how shots increase infant mortality.

    http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/?tool=pubmed

    Like

  271. Lawrence
    December 27, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    @Jena – a great takedown of that junk science “study”:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/12/26/some-post-holiday-antivaccine-science/

    VAERS is not a reliable source for this type of analysis.

    Like

  272. Lawrence
    December 27, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    @Snapdragon – if there are nurses who are against reducing the transmission of flu, then they shouldn’t be nurses.

    And thank you for once again confirming that AoA is anti-vaccine, through and through.

    Like

  273. Lawrence
    December 27, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    @Snapdragon – why would nurses be “desperately” writing to anti-science quacks for advice?

    Like

  274. December 27, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    I believe Snapdragon and Jena are sockies again of our own favorite AoA groupie, cia parker. Similar tactics used, similar misunderstanding of what constitutes science and not even willing to think about the consequences if vaccination refusal became widespread in the population at large, which is the point of maintaining high ratio of vaccinated versus unvaccinated, so those unvaccinated could continue to enjoy their freedom to refuse.

    Like

  275. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    This article is about parents deciding for their children, and most nurses are adults. But what is of interest to a parent is if their child is hospitalized that the hospital should have mandatory vaccine policies for anyone who has contact with a patient.

    Because the last thing you need when your child is in the hospital is to have them infected by someone “exercising their rights to not get vaccinated.” See this story about a nurse like that related by Dr. Mark Crislip.

    Like

  276. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    Or they get infected by somebody who was vaccinated. Especially the flu vaccine, which is not effective at providing protection.
    86% of kids with whooping cough were vaccinated for it, they get it, and they spread it to others too.

    Like

  277. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    1,742 Reports of Adverse Events after children Received Prevenar 13.

    Here are some of them…
    106 cases of cyanosis
    69 cases of loss of consciousness
    165 cases of hypotonia
    102 cases of hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes
    107 cases of convulsions
    20 cases of epilepsy
    98 cases of febrile convulsions
    33 cases of grand mal convulsions
    47 apnea attacks
    108 cases of vomiting
    43 cases of Gaze Palsy
    12 cases of anemia
    1 case of bone marrow failure
    6 cases of cardiac arrests
    53 cases of diarrhea
    593 cases of pyrexia (high temperature)
    22 cases of gait disturbance
    6 cases of anaphylaxis
    62 cases of pertussis (whooping cough)
    2 cases of meningitis pneumococcal
    3 cases of arthritis
    16 cases of muscle twitching
    22 cases of tremors
    264 cases of crying (does not indicate the severity)
    2 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome
    10 cases of respiratory arrest
    7 cases of Kawasaki’s disease

    http://vactruth.com/2012/12/27/1742-adverse-events/

    Like

  278. December 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    @MM – and how many of those adverse events were definitely linked to the vaccine? Especially because several of them have no biological mechanism for being caused by the vaccine – including pertussis, for example.

    Like

  279. December 27, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    @MM – doing a quick count, over 1000 of those events would be considered “minor” if they were linked to the vaccine at all (like “crying”) not to mention, again, that many of those other events have no biological mechanism for being caused by the vaccine – and please provide proof that these events were definitely linked to the vaccine….because, much like VAERS, a lot of events get reported, but we find that very few can be linked back to vaccines in the first place.

    Like

  280. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    A couple of questions, MM:

    Those 1742 reports were out of how many total doses of Prevnar 13? Provide an actual citation, not a link to a biased website. It could be the manufacturer’s site or perhaps a title, journal and date of a PubMed indexed paper reviewing its use over the past two years. For example:

    Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2012 Aug;1263:15-26. doi: 10.1111/j.1749-6632.2012.06673.x. Epub 2012 Jul 25.
    Development and clinical evaluation of Prevnar 13, a 13-valent pneumocococcal CRM197 conjugate vaccine.

    and

    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2011 Jul;10(7):951-80. doi: 10.1586/erv.11.76.
    Review on the immunogenicity and safety of PCV-13 in infants and toddlers

    And what must you read and understand before accessing the VAERS database from its official website, http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ? Explain clearly what they want you to acknowledge before clicking on the button.

    Also, you need some basic herd immunity arithmetic:

    Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

    950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
    50 unvaccinated persons

    The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

    760 protected persons
    190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
    50 unvaccinated persons

    There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

    760 protected persons without pertussis

    38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
    152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

    10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
    40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

    This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

    You are still more likely to get pertussis or influenza if you are not vaccinated. No one has ever claimed they were 100% effective, but they are better than nothing and much safer than the actual diseases.

    Oh, and MM, one more question: whose sock puppet are you? Joe’s? Steve Michaels? Cia Parker?

    Like

  281. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    “This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!”

    So what….your point only demonstrates that the vaccine is not effective at protecting, and you should stop blaming the unvaccinated for the break outs.

    And in regards to, “Those 1742 reports were out of how many total doses of Prevnar 13?”
    Again, so what….that is far too many injuries to make any number OK.

    Also, you say, “You are still more likely to get pertussis or influenza if you are not vaccinated. No one has ever claimed they were 100% effective, but they are better than nothing and much safer than the actual diseases.”

    If they are not very effective than they are not worth the risk of injury from the vaccine.

    Like

  282. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    MM, it seems you have a bit of trouble with basic arithmetic. Of the 950 persons who were vaccinated only 38 got pertussis, that is only 4%. Yet of the 50 persons who did not get the vaccine, 10 did get pertussis. That was 20%. In my scenario you are not vaccinated your chance of getting pertussis is multiplied by five.

    But in the real world it is much higher:
    Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

    Which says:

    Vaccine refusers had a 23-fold increased risk for pertussis when compared with vaccine acceptors, and 11% of pertussis cases in the entire study population were attributed to vaccine refusal.

    MM said:

    Again, so what….that is far too many injuries to make any number OK.

    Please compare it to the total number that are injured by the thirteen bacterial types that cause pneumonia. And use some actual documentation, do not just make a statement and expect us to believe it. For instance this says:

    Each year in the US pneumococcus causes about 4000 cases of blood stream infections (bacteremia), meningitis, or other invasive disease in children younger than 5 years of age.

    Now, do tell me how 1742 is so much more than 4000 actual severe complications with the diseases. If you have trouble with that, then do get this and study it carefully; Basic Math and Pre-Algebra For Dummies by Mark Zegarelli.

    Like

  283. December 27, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @MM – you sound a lot like “Please” from earlier. Please define “effective” vs “in-effective” –

    It has been shown, time and time and time again, that vaccines are a magnitude or more safer than the diseases that they prevent – the vast majority of any reactions to a vaccine are minor, compared to relatively major side-effects from the diseases – including blindness, deafness, sterility, encephalitis, pneumonia & other opportunistic infections…..

    Your premise that the vaccine is not worth the risk is a statement that has no validity whatsoever…..

    Like

  284. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    @lawrence – you sound a lot like any number of people on this site.

    No validity? 1,742 Reports of Adverse Events after children Received Prevenar 13.

    You have to have the disease first to say a vaccine is safer than the disease. You are purposely infecting people with the vaccine, which then can cause injury or death and promotes more diseases to you in the future as you get older.

    Like

  285. December 27, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    @Chris – MM is talking exactly like “Please” was before – no definition of “effective” or “relative risk” and even when shown that even in the 1700+ reports of reactions, over 1000 of them could be classified as minor (such as crying) without even considering that others had no biological connection to the vaccine (no plausible mechanism) or when investigated had absolutely no connection to the vaccine at all (like the majority of the VAERS reports here in the US).

    Pneumonia is a serious disease – which can require hospitalization, leads to secondary infections and complications (like bronchitis or asthma – long term) and can be very fatal in infants and small children.

    Please show actual evidence that the vaccine does serious harm – and I’m sure you can’t, because there is no proof or scientific evidence that any vaccine is more harmful than the disease they prevent. At the end of the day, the incidence of vaccine preventable diseases have decreased between 95 – 99.9% (in the case of smallpox 100% or polio in the US & most of the world, 100%), because of our vaccine program.

    Unless you can provide a concrete definition of “safe” or “effective” as you use it – you are blowing a whole lot of hot air.

    Like

  286. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    @Chris – “Now, do tell me how 1742 is so much more than 4000 actual severe complications with the diseases. If you have trouble with that, then do get this and study it carefully; Basic Math and Pre-Algebra For Dummies by Mark Zegarelli.

    1742 are purposely infected! Get it, purposely!!! As in, you grab them and jab them, and then they are injured!! Hello???

    Like

  287. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    MM, please tell my how 1742 getting a possible vaccine reaction is worse than the 4000 who suffered serious effects from the actual diseases.

    Also the following makes absolutely no sense, and shows a total lack of knowledge about vaccines:

    You have to have the disease first to say a vaccine is safer than the disease. You are purposely infecting people with the vaccine, which then can cause injury or death and promotes more diseases to you in the future as you get older.

    It has already been pointed out to you that several who got the disease had serious complications.

    Like

  288. December 27, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    @MM – please explain the biological mechanism by which the Prevenar Vaccine would cause Pertussis.

    Please show exactly where, with citations, that each and every one of these “adverse” events were definitely linked to the administration of the vaccine in question.

    As I have already shown, using your figures above, over 1000 of these “reactions” are minor to begin with, regardless of whether or not they are linked to the vaccine. That leaves just around 700 reactions – again, with no documentation that actual links them to the vaccine – or, in many cases above, no biological mechanism for being linked.

    As you have no concept of “report” vs. “verified,” your side of this discussion is invalid.

    Again, please offer your definition of both “safe” and “effective” so that we can have an actual conversation.

    Like

  289. December 27, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    @Chris – MM is either an insane troll sock puppet or a sock puppet of our “Please” poster earlier.

    Using blurry definitions of “safe” vs. the very real and serious complications of the disease this vaccine prevents (not to mention the 13 different strains it is effective against) – when MM has offered no evidence that any of the reactions listed were definitely linked to the vaccine in question.

    Where is your evidence MM – we’d love to take a look?

    Like

  290. December 27, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    @MM – how many children (especially babies) cry when they get a shot, or have their blood drawn? How exactly would you consider “crying” to be a serious side effect or “adverse reaction?”

    Like

  291. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    MM:

    1742 are purposely infected! Get it, purposely!!! As in, you grab them and jab them, and then they are injured!! Hello???

    How are they purposely infected when the vaccine only contains “contains polysaccharides of the capsular antigens of Streptococcus pneumoniae serotypes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6A, 6B, 7F, 9V, 14, 18C, 19A, 19F, and 23F, individually conjugated to a nontoxic diphtheria CRM197 (CRM, cross-reactive material) carrier protein”, which is just the outer portion of the bacteria. It is not the entire microbe.

    So you really are not making any sense. How would you prevent the four thousand serious cases of disease injury from the full bacterial infections?

    MM is exactly like “Please” who went apoplectic over less than a hundred reported unverified deaths from Infanrix Hexa, but ignored the 200000 to 300000 deaths from pertussis each year on this planet? Plus the almost 200000 deaths from tetanus, and all of the other diseases that vaccine was designed for.

    Like

  292. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    @Lawrence – “Unless you can provide a concrete definition of “safe” or “effective” as you use it – you are blowing a whole lot of hot air.”

    The definition of safe is NOT 1742. Does that help you Larry?

    The definition of Safe – how about not injuring and killing people??

    Happy now Larry?

    Like

  293. December 27, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    @MM – how about showing where all 1742 “reactions” were definitely linked to the vaccine? As I have already shown, over 1000 of them would be considered minor to begin with, so your thinking is flawed at the beginning – plus Chris has already shown over 4000 serious reactions to the actual disease itself…..

    Like

  294. December 27, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Mayan Man :
    You have to have the disease first to say a vaccine is safer than the disease. You are purposely infecting people with the vaccine, which then can cause injury or death and promotes more diseases to you in the future as you get older.

    I had pertussis when I was 17. What I got was three months of horrid coughing causing cracked ribs, burst blood vessels in my eyes, vomiting and just over all feeling of being out of breath, tired and run down the entire time. And after the cough was over, I was left with permanent damage to my lungs which gives me asthma like symptoms without it being actual asthma so untreatable with asthma medications. I have the lung capacity of an elderly lady when prior to pertussis I was on my way to becoming an Olympic swimmer.

    In June of 2010 I had my first ever TDaP vaccine. I did feel a bit under the weather the day after and my arm ached for a few days, but after sleeping it off, I was perfectly fine. Sorry but as one who has had the disease and the vaccine, I’ll take the vaccine any day, especially since another bout with pertussis would probably kill me.

    Like

  295. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    @Chris – how are they purposely infected? What do you think getting a shot is???

    Like

  296. Mayan Man
    December 27, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    @Lara

    You have no credibility here with your anectodal stories.

    Like

  297. Lara Lohne
    December 27, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    You made a statement and while my story is anecdotal I posted it to actually agree with your statement, which I also quoted, “You have to have the disease first to say a vaccine is safer than the disease.” I’ve had the disease, then I had the vaccine and I agree and am saying, the vaccine is significantly safer then the disease. Why do you have a problem with my statement agreeing with yours?

    And sorry to burst your anti-vaccine bubble, but since my anecdotes actually have science behind them, and there is documentation to support my claims, and I have, in the past, provided those links (as others here have done to show your claims are invalid) but you have not provided anything but arrogant ignorance and flawed mathematical skills, I’d say you are the one who has no credibility here, not me.

    Like

  298. Chris
    December 27, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    MM:

    Chris – how are they purposely infected? What do you think getting a shot is??

    It is done by just getting a bit of the microbe, in the case of Prevnar, just the outer coating of the bacteria without the rest of it, to teach the immune system to recognize intruders. That way when it encounters the full bacteria it is primed to combat the infection… without the person ever knowing it.

    It is like instead of throwing a balloon full of water, the vaccine is just using empty balloons.

    You have no credibility here with your anectodal stories.

    And your arguments from blatant assertion have no credibility when you cannot provide verifiable evidence. I have shown you the math, the papers and actual citations. Again if you have evidence that Prevnar 13 is more dangerous than the bacterial agents it is designed for, then please present it. But remember you cannot use raw VAERS data, you must use the reports that actually analyze the data, along with the Vaccine Safety Datalink.

    Like

  299. December 27, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    @Chris & Lara – MM is once again trotting out the “Nirvana Fallacy” made even worse by the fact that he cannot provide a shred of proof that the reactions listed were linked to the vaccine at all.

    Like

  300. dingo199
    January 14, 2013 at 6:46 am

    MM/IrrationalAntivax/Hippo/Thingy/sockpuppet troll…

    1. If you are injected with, or inhale a synthetic oligopeptide, are you “infected”?
    2. If so, do you regard “infection” as exposure to absolutely anything in the environment? (Logic dictates that if the answer to 1. is yes, then you must answer yes to 2. also – or tell us the difference)
    3 How do I avoid inhaling (and therefore being “infected”) with pollen while I am walking down the sidewalk?

    Like

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