The "One Injection" Remedy for the Flu from ZDoggMD
Dec 07, 2012

I started National Influenza Vaccination Week (NIVW) off with a little humor on Monday with Rick’s Rant.  And now look where it has led me.zdoggmd

Today I’m concluding a week’s worth of flu-related posts with the wildly entertaining, never-to-be-outdone, ZDoggMD.

Yes, known throughout the land (or throughout the hippest of the kids in the U.S. medical community anyway), ZDoggMD is a soon-to-be legend for his humorous attempts at musical parodies.  But rest assured, he is no newbie to the immunization scene.  No splash in the pan.   No.  He has attacked many vaccine related issues in his highly questionable past.  But be forewarned.  With his elaborate wigs and mildly inappropriate lyrics, I suspect he may be a long-lost relative of Weird Al Yankovic.  However, I must reassure you that he is considerably more attractive than Al (you can thank me later Z) and immensely more knowledgeable.  Especially in regard to all the accurate medical stuff.
As the mother of five daughters – two of which are mildly obsessed with the immensely popular English-Irish boy band One Direction, and all of which are singers and musicians themselves – I anticipate that this video by ZDoggMD will be an inspiration (at least to my kids).  And since my children have already gotten their flu shots, it’s more likely that this video will inspire them to create some parodies of their own.  Before long I’ll probably be scratching my head, wondering how to respond to their bizarre desire to “be just like ZDoggMD” when they grow up.  I guess my first bit of advice will be to shave their heads and get a medical degree.

So here is the clever ZDoggMD, with “One Injection”, a video parody of the One Direction song “What Makes You Beautiful”, singing about the importance of flu vaccination, while also taking a jab at a few of those unfounded flu myths.

As we wrap up National Influenza Vaccination Week, think about what you can do to encourage others to get their flu vaccine.
OK.  Maybe you’re not as creative and talented as ZDoggMD.  But don’t fret. 
All we ask is that you share the information that we’ve provided this week and suggest that people get their flu vaccine this year and every year.  Thanks again, and here’s hoping you stay flu free!

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142 responses to “The "One Injection" Remedy for the Flu from ZDoggMD”

  1. lilady says:

    ZDoggMD is one of my favorite doctors. He and his troupe have a huge following within doctors and nurses groups.
    You can see ZPupp, his adorable daughter in the “Big Pharma” video. (That video is NOT suitable for viewing in the office and NOT suitable for kids. 🙂
    Thanks for posting the video Christine….and for all you do to get information “out there” about immunizations.

  2. […] his work (and a great way to end National Influenza Immunization Week) from Christine Vara over at Shot of Prevention.  […]

  3. Nathan says:

    “How can you get the flu from a flu shot? The flu in the flu shot is deader than Tupac” goes through my head several times a day.

  4. Lizzy says:

    It reminded me of the sticky traps with sexual pheromones I use to catch meal moths: lure them to their death with the promise of sex.

  5. Keric says:

    It’s what they have to do to convince people to get their shots. It reminds me of the old cigarette commercials.

  6. Lawrence says:

    @Keric – as opposed to printing pictures of prominent pro-vaccination advocates as cannibals? How about the constant accusations of “killing and maiming children?” Or perhaps it would be the spreading of lies, misinformation and scare-tactics to try to convince parents that vaccines are unsafe when decades of research (both international, domestic, publicly funded & not, etc.) show that vaccines are extremely safe and a magnitude or more safer than the diseases they prevent?

  7. Keric says:

    Can’t comment on the cannibal comment as I don’t know what it is, but I do agree that vaccines kill and maim children and I do agree that vaccines are not safe.
    Can you deny that vaccines have killed and maimed? Can you prove that vaccines are safe?
    I didn’t think so.

  8. Lawrence says:

    @Keric – why yes, actually I can prove they are safe (you aren’t asking a rhetorical question, btw).
    Here is a good place to start:
    As for vaccine injuries – yes, they do occur. But, they do not occur at the frequency / rate or severity that anti-vaccine proponents would lead you to believe. An exhaustive study of the research and data compiled on the side-effects to vaccines showed that serious side effects happened in very rare instances – with rates as low as one in one million or one in 10 million cases (such that it was difficult or impossible to statistically link the vaccine to said injury).
    Even in the cases of GB & the flu vaccine, it is statistically impossible to show a link because the rates varied by such a small number of cases.
    We aren’t talking about hundreds of thousands of people Keric, we are talking about a very small number (because the link between vaccines & autism has been disproven over and over again), who do have a means to file for recompense as well, through the Vaccine Court.
    Legitimate vaccine injuries do occur and are taken very seriously – but they happen very rarely and the vast majority of vaccine side-effects are so minor as to be barely noticeable.
    Where is your science that says otherwise?

  9. Chris says:


    Can’t comment on the cannibal comment as I don’t know what it is, but I do agree that vaccines kill and maim children and I do agree that vaccines are not safe.

    Interesting, but can you prove it? For instance last year influenza killed at least 34 kids, and now early in the flu season about five children, so what you need to do is provide the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper that shows influenza vaccine has killed more than that. Thank you.
    And while vaccines have been known to cause injury, you have to acknowledge relative risk. Think about it: if someone has a bad reaction to the reduced level of antigen in a vaccine, why would they fare better with full blown viral infection. So, do come up with some real evidence that the flu vaccine is more dangerous than actually getting influenza.
    And the cannibal bit was an infamous blog posting on the Age of Autism blog:

  10. Keric says:

    Lawrence – I do not have to prove otherwise. You just admitted that vaccines are not safe.
    “As for vaccine injuries – yes, they do occur”
    “Legitimate vaccine injuries do occur and are taken very seriously”

  11. Keric says:

    Chris – I don’t have to prove it, Lawrence just admitted it.
    Can you deny that vaccines have killed and maimed? Can you prove that vaccines are safe Chris?

  12. Chris says:

    Actually, Keric, you do not understand. You are saying the vaccines are more dangerous than influenza, so it is up to you to prove that claim. Again, just post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper that shows the vaccine has killed more children than influenza in the past couple of years. Otherwise, you have no argument.

  13. Lawrence says:

    @Keric – by your standards, cars aren’t safe, walking on the sidewalk isn’t safe, nor is taking a bath safe (or just about anything else, for that matter).
    You haven’t proven a thing – on the other hand, I showed you a link where you can find hundreds of studies on the safety of vaccines.
    Are you falling for the Nirvana fallacy? How about the thousands / tens of thousands of children that suffered severe side-effects like blindness, sterility, deafness, or worse from vaccine-preventable diseases?

  14. Rational Antivax says:


    “How can you get the flu from a flu shot? The flu in the flu shot is deader than Tupac” goes through my head several times a day.

    Here’s how you get the flu from the flu shot, infection promoter.

    Inactivated vaccines are not alive and cannot replicate.
    The entire dose of antigen is administered in the injection. These vaccines cannot cause disease from infection, even in an immunodeficient person.

  15. Keric says:

    Chris – I didn’t say vaaines are more dangerous than influenza. You like to twist what people say? I said vaccines are not safe as they maim and kill people. What argument do I need, it is a fact.
    Lawrence – I don’t need to prove anything. You said it yourself, vaccines are not safe.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Keric, Vaccines are orders of magnitude safer then the diseases they prevent. So you would prefer to take your chances with the disease, suffer through illness that could last for weeks or in come cases months, may lead to secondary infection, encephalitis, all manner of nasty and dangerous side effects (which happen at a much higher frequency then any reaction to vaccination, serious or otherwise, not to mention the suffering through the disease) versus getting a shot or two in the arm to prevent all that from happening to begin with? Someone has very skewed priorities in my opinion.
      Just as Lawrence pointed out to you, NOTHING in this world is 100% safe, but if we used the same fallacy argument for everything in the world that you are trying to use for vaccines, NOBODY WOULD EVER DO ANYTHING, EVER because the risk of injury or death would be too great. Please, try to use some logic and common sense, because your argument is severely flawed and kind of silly to be perfectly honest.

  16. Lawrence says:

    @Keric – ummmm, is English not your first language? Certainly reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit either.
    Can to quote where exactly I said what you think I said?

  17. Lawrence says:

    @Lara – “Keric” just outed himself as “Joe” in the other thread. Why he feels the need to create sockpuppets is beyond me, other than to attempt to start a fight.

  18. Gray Falcon says:

    A basic rule of security I learned is that risk cannot be eliminated, it can only be managed. For at least 90% of the population (maybe even 99%), getting the flu shot is far less of a risk than going without. For the rest, well, perhaps the take-home lesson from all the studies the anti-vaccine people posted is in fact that we need better screening for autoimmune disorders, or something like that?

  19. Chris says:


    I said vaccines are not safe as they maim and kill people. What argument do I need, it is a fact.

    So what? You cannot make assertions like that without comparing it to the alternative, which is the risk of actually getting influenza. If you make a claim, you need to back it up, including the comparative risks of the consequences for not preventing influenza.
    You are continuing to show how dishonest you by ignoring what happens of influenza is not prevented, and by creating more sock puppets.

  20. novalox says:

    [citation needed]

  21. Ari says:

    Actuallly, we’d all agree that cars aren’t safe and bathtubs aren’t safe. It depends on whether you think the risk is worth taking, as we usually do. You think the risk of getting the flu is so unacceptably dangerous, that you’d rather get the shot. Fine. Many of us don’t think the risk of the flu is dangerous enough to risk the many adverse effects that the vaccine often has. We’d rather accept the chance that we’ll get the flu, trustiing that we’ll recover in a week or so, than take the risk of death or paralysis from the vaccine. These happen often enough that it doesn’t make a particle of difference to me whether it’s a one in a thousand or a one in ten thousand chance. It’s a risk I’m unwilling to take, ever, period. We agree that neither the disease nor the vaccine is safe: you have to decide which risk you’d rather take. Since the death statistics from the flu have been greatly exaggerated and very unreliable in the past, and the risks from the vaccine understated, many of us choose to forgo the vaccine and not trust anybody’s statistics.
    The nasal Fluzone is a live virus vaccine, which means that it can transmit the disease itself. Many parents of unvaccinated children dread the free flu vaccine at school, because they know that their children are very likely to catch the fu from the just-vaccinated chidren. I don’t worry, although I do refuse the vaccine for my child: if she gets the flu, so be it, she’ll keep her immune system up to speed thereby.
    Thanks for your comment, Th1, you’re absolutely right.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Cia, you’re again giving your beliefs and not providing any evidence to back it up. You don’t believe the statistic collected and analyzed by scores of epidemiologists? You just wave your hand at it and say the risks of the flu are exaggerated and the benefits of vaccine are also so we’ll take our chances with the virus, thanks. If you had ever actually had a flu virus, one of the strains that is included in the yearly vaccine, you might think differently. Where is the data that shows your statements are more accurate then what we have provided? If you can’t back up what you say with data, then stop saying it because we aren’t going to buy it. And we can refute it every time, easily just by asking you to provide citations, which you never do.
      While I’ve only had minor flu viruses in my lifetime, I was sick enough to know I didn’t want to go through that again. The last time I had the flu, I was still nursing my son (he was only 10 months old) and missed a week of work because I couldn’t get out of bed, nor could I eat anything. I didn’t throw it up, I was just too weak. Any time I did try to stand I was immediately dizzy and light headed and began to get tunnel vision and was on the verge of passing out. I had such severe pain in my joints and my spine and my fever didn’t fully break for 5 days, but there wasn’t a night during that entire time I didn’t wake up drenched in sweat, shivering with cold and unable to do anything about it. And this was just a minor strain. My son didn’t catch it, my partner did, but didn’t suffer as long as I did, but his pain was much more severe and he actually began to think he had meningitis because the pain in his spine was so great. All this that I’m telling you right now is anecdotal and my experience is not the same as everyone’s, and not everyone gets the same flu strain, which is why there are more then one strain, the more dangerous that will be circulating that year, in the vaccines, because not everyone is lucky enough to only catch a minor flu. I have known people, perfectly healthy, young and active people, who have died of the flu. They came home from school, seemed a little more tired then usual so went to bed early and didn’t ever wake up again. Their autopsy found flu virus in their brain tissue. These deaths were not necessary, they could have been prevented, except that the children belongs to an anti-vaccine family, so they were essentially gone before they even got a chance, because their parents had all the power and they, as children, had none. Perhaps you should honestly ask yourself, what is in the best interest of your child, me getting my way and proving a point to society? Or my child not suffering through an illness that can be very danger, with severe complications and even death? What would your daughter choose, if she were given the facts and was able to understand them?

  22. Lawrence says:

    @Ari – you have a very warped sense of risk-benefit analysis….not to mention heartless, given that at least five babies have already died of the flu this year.

  23. Gray Falcon says:

    @Ari- If you stand on a train track with a train coming, close your eyes and plug your ears, is the train still coming? Pretending the flu is not a risk does not make it so.

  24. Rational Antivax says:

    If you stand on a train track with a train coming, close your eyes and plug your ears, is the train still coming?

    And who do you think would do that? Use the sidewalk Gray and don’t teach them to close their eyes while they walk.
    Pay attention at all times infection promoter.

  25. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – I find it very strange and sad that anti-vaccine folks can ignore the deaths of thousands up to tens of thousands due to the flu / complications from the flu (babies up to seniors), but are concerned about mostly minor & rare side-effects from the vaccine…..
    Also, not to mention, for every person that does die from the flu, hundreds, if not thousands have to be hospitalized for a variety of related factors as well.
    It is a very skewed view of risk-benefits….

  26. Lawrence says:

    @Insane troll – you’re drunk again, go home!

  27. Rational Antivax says:

    I’m sorry but only the chronically intoxicated would stand on a train track.
    If you think Gray is logical, do it.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      thing troll: there are these things we learn about in school relating to language and writing. They are called analogy and metaphor. They can be used to convey an idea for someone that doesn’t seem to grasp the idea in is basic fact form. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to grasp analogy and metaphor either. That is not a failing on our part per se (we did assume you had some kind of working intellect, so perhaps to a point we are to blame) but it is your fault for not understanding basic language structure and usage. Go back to school and learn how to use and understand language, then you might be up to the task of engaging people in an intellectual manner. The train analogy is not too far off from the old saying, “If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?” Except a tree falling with nobody around isn’t dangerous where as standing on a train track with a train approaching is. Closing your eyes and plugging your ears does not remove the danger, the train is still coming, you just can’t see it or hear it, that is self deception, refusing to accept the risk is real if you can’t see or hear it.

  28. Lawrence says:

    LOL – I’d tell you to go jump off a bridge, but since you take everything literally, you just might go ahead & do it…..

  29. Rational Antivax says:

    Have you had the flu?

  30. Lawrence says:

    @Lara – no reason to continue to engage “insane troll.” I quite enjoy Internet Memes and thingy certainly fits into the “………you’re drunk, go home.” meme quite nicely.

  31. Rational Antivax says:

    Like what I have been saying before, vaccinators are stuck in their own metaphors like them being stuck on a train track. That’s all there is to it.
    Lara why don’t you just teach them to put the gun in their head and pull the effin’ trigger. Another addition to your metaphor collection hobby

  32. Gray Falcon says:

    The worst part is that Th1Th2 probably thinks she’s a genius for thinking up her last comment. Now, I’m waiting for Ari or Joe to respond, see if they have anything to say other than “because I said so, that’s why.”

  33. Rational Antivax says:

    I’m talking to you Gray. How many times did you stand on a train track with your eyes close? How many times have you had the flu?
    I hope your beloved metaphor will rescue you from embarrassment.

  34. Gray Falcon says:

    Until you learn the meanings of the words “analogy” and “metaphor”, you have no right to join in this conversation. If you cannot comprehend the idea that risk is relative, you have no right to join in this conversation.Still, I’ll try to explain what I can. Standing on the train tracks may not be as immediately lethal as exposing yourself the flu (although the flu can be fatal), in both cases, the risk is less than the alternative. The options are “A” (getting the vaccine, or not standing on the train tracks) and “Not A”, (not getting the vaccine, standing on the train tracks). Although the odds are different, in both cases, the risks of “A” are less than the risks of “Not A”. And no, this is not a false dilemma, “A” and “Not A” are, by definition, the only options.

  35. Rational Antivax says:

    Sadly, I have witnessed a lot of parents here who chose to stand on a train track…with their children unfortunately. Now we know who’s to blame.
    Me, I use the sidewalk and I have teaching this since SBM days.

  36. Rational Antivax says:

    What is your business standing on a train track? That is what I am trying to comprehend.

  37. Gray Falcon says:

    My apologies. I had, for a moment, a glimmer of hope that I understood what was going on in Th1Th2’s mind, that I could help her understand my meaning, that she could see reason. I had assumed her issue was that I had compared the flu to standing on a railroad track, since one was more lethal than the other, and she believed it to be an unfair comparison. Instead, her issue was that she is an idiot, and she believed I really was talking about standing on a railroad track. Why I had forgotten that, I will not know.
    For those wondering about the sidewalk, she somehow believes, in spite of all evidence, is cleaner than everything else, and that small children will naturally stay on it. She has no knowledge about how the world works outside her own delusions.

  38. Rational Antivax says:

    My apologies

    Of course, for that crappy metaphor. You do realize that you’re telling the people to “STAND ON THE TRAIN TRACK” otherwise there will be no DEATH if they have to use the side walk or stand away from the train track.
    Kindergarteners know better. What a shame.

  39. Car Guy says:

    Standing on the track and waiting for the train to hit is like going and getting jabbed and waiting to get hit. Avoid the track and avoid the jab.

  40. Gray Falcon says:

    Okay, time to drop Th1Th2 for good.

    It’s easy to see you’re in a bargaining stage. Sorry but you can’t turn back time. It’s a tragedy to have an autistic child, not a blessing. Nobody wants to have an autistic child. You should be blamed for everything but you were in denial for a long time. You’re just digging yourself deeper into the hole. Learn from your mistakes. Sorry, but there’s no second chance. Poor kiddo.

    This is Th1Th2, a being with neither blood nor tears.

  41. Chris says:

    Car Guy, how do you plan on avoiding influenza? Hiding inside your car?

  42. Gray Falcon says:

    To clarify my last post: That was a direct quote from Th1Th2 on that thread, the same person who posts under “Rational Antivax”. Ally with her at the peril of your own soul.

  43. Rational Antivax says:

    She was caught standing on the train track with her child unfortunately. That’s what you have been teaching them to do, right Gray? Now go weep.

  44. Rational Antivax says:

    Chris :
    Car Guy, how do you plan on avoiding influenza? Hiding inside your car?

    By STANDING ON THE TRAIN TRACK. Do you now see how your metaphor works Gray?

  45. Gray Falcon says:

    Rational Antivax :
    She was caught standing on the train track with her child unfortunately. That’s what you have been teaching them to do, right Gray? Now go weep.

    I have nothing to say to you, demon.

  46. Chris says:

    There is a reason to not engage Thingy, Gray Falcon. She is a delusional manipulative evil liar who will twist words into cruel knots. For any lurkers this comment where she claimed that a toddler knows to stay on the sidewalk revealed to us that she has her own reality. She is only “rational” on her home planet, Htrae.
    Car Guy, exactly how do you avoid influenza? Do tell us how you plan to stay away from airborne viruses.

  47. Rational Antivax says:

    Why don’t you ask Chris about her wonderful experience she had with her child while they were standing in front of an incoming Chicken Pox Polar Express?

  48. Rational Antivax says:

    Oh yeah Chris, like how your child suddenly pop up playing on the train track?

  49. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – okay, once again insane troll crosses the line.
    Email sent.

  50. Car Guy says:

    I’ll take my chances off of the tracks thank you.

  51. Chris says:

    I don’t even read what she writes, there is absolutely no point.
    It is amazing the tactics used by those who just go on ideology. There are the use of sock puppets by Cia and Joe that just repeat the same lies over and over again, and then there is Thingy who just posts nonsensical insults.

  52. Chris says:

    Car Guy, answer the question: how do you plan to avoid an airborne virus like influenza? It does not care where you stand. Do you plan on wearing a mask, staying away from people, wearing gloves, etc? Do tell us.
    Or are you another sock puppet of Joe? Because you are starting to evade direct questions just like he does.

  53. Gray Falcon says:

    Frankly, Th1Th2’s gotten even more nonsensical than before. Schizophrenia, perhaps?

  54. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – certainly some kind of mental illness is in play here – because insane troll certainly doesn’t see the same reality that the rest of us do.
    Which dovetails into people thinking, especially around the holidays, that they can protect themselves from infectious diseases – when they are flying in airplanes, going to the mall, and associating large numbers of people in close-quarters.
    Unlike insane troll, who seems to believe he/she can identify pathogens in the air or infected individuals (as if they were painted neon blue or something), when you are exposed to large numbers of people, especially in enclosed spaces, it can be impossible to avoid airborne diseases like the flu….

  55. Car Guy says:

    I don’t plan on wearing a mask, staying away from people or wearing gloves. I plan to live life and catch the flu if I must, but I won’t be getting jabbed, as it doesn’t offer much protection anyway and it may very well hurt my over-all health moving forward.

  56. Car Guy says:

    Hate to run but gotta go.

  57. Lawrence says:

    @Car Guy – funny, I know a number of people who got the flu & suffered long term consequences like bronchitis & asthma as a result, not to mention those that progressed to pneumonia and required hospitalization…..these are real side-effects of getting the flu.
    I would rather not take the chance – not worth the risk (and there is always the 1918 Pandemic to think about as well – what has happened before will surely happen again).

  58. Chris says:

    Having almost died from influenza as a child, I do not agree with your choices, Car Guy.
    But you just made a claim: “it may very well hurt my over-all health moving forward.” Provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that influenza vaccination is harmful to your health, especially compared to actually getting influenza.
    Oh, and this year the vaccine matches the circulating strain:

    While it’s early in the season, it’s encouraging to see a well-matched vaccine so far. That bodes well for how well this season’s vaccine will protect against illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

  59. Rational Antivax says:

    Lawrence ,
    I do not think you have the capacity to determine which one “crosses the line” when you choose to remain blind with plugged ears. No one will help you “stand on the train track” either. You are so worried about airborne pathogens that you failed to realize you are also “standing on the train track” (vaccine pathogens).
    Just use the side walk. Enough said.
    But then again, I’m talking to infection promoters and their disease prevention is an absolute farce.

  60. Lawrence says:

    @Insane troll – you’re drunk, go home!

  61. lilady says:

    I’ve just emailed Christine for moderating these trolls and their sockies.
    Just ignore Insane Troll and the sockies.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Someone needs to go back to school and take a basic English literature class to learn what a metaphor is. Because clearly someone doesn’t know and it continuing to make a fool of itself by using said metaphor in a way that makes no sense at all.

  62. Rational Antivax says:


    Having almost died from influenza as a child,

    I’m amazed you’re still alive. Did you smell the train coming?

  63. Lawrence says:

    @Lara – ignore the ignoramus, he’ll be gone shortly.

  64. Maura says:

    Dr. Bob Sears, in the Vaccine Book (and I know he is one of your nemeses, although he is largely pro-vax), says on p. 120 that there are about 1500 reported fatalities every year from the flu in the U.S., but the CDC claims to believe there are really 36,000, the figure we often hear touted on the news when we’re told to line up like sheepies for your flu vax. He says the CDC gets this wildly inflated figure from the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Review database, which reports deaths from the flu and pneumonia in the same group, even though most cases of the pneumonia are bacterial and unrelated to the flu. “Such statements give people the false impression that thousands of infants, and tens of thousands of elderly, are killed each year by the flu.” The National Center for Health Statistics reports flu deaths separately from those caused by pneumonia, and published a report finding that an average of about 100 deaths in the population under the age of 35 are caused by flu every year. About twenty deaths a year from flu in each of these five age groups: first year of life, one to four, five to fourteen, fifteen to twenty-four, and twenty-five to thirty-four. They also reported about 1350 deaths a year from flu in those over sixty-five. From another data base, the CDC’s National Vital Statistics Reports, which found that only a few hundred people die every year from the flu, many of them suffering from pre-existing conditions. In 2002, 727 people died of flu, 2001 257, in 2003 1,792 people died of the flu. CDC “Deaths: final data…”National Vital Statistics Reports: 52(3); 53(5); 54 (13).
    Sears: “The press would have us believe that the flu is a worrisome and severe disease that kills people left and right. It doesn’t. Virtually all healthy infants, children, and young to middle-aged adults wheather the flu without any problems. Those with chronic heart, lung, or immune system problems, as well as the elderly, are the primary risk groups. Flu prevention is most important for them and their families.”
    The press may do this because they are coached by the CDC to do so. In Oct. 2005, the Brithish Medical Journal published a special report criticizing the CDC’s marketing campaign of fear in which medical experts are taught to irrationally scare people to raise demand for flu vaccine. Data from the CDC’s own official records was presented to show that the CDC intentionally hyperinflates flu mortality numbers to alarm the public and increase vaccine sales. BMJ wrote that CDC flu deaths are exaggerated for public relations rather than determined by science. Doshi, P., “Are U.S. flu death figures more PR than science?”BMJ dec. 10, 2005; 331: 1412.
    I will never take the flu vaccine even when I reach the age of sixty-five. My father was paralyzed by it, and it also made him lose his voice for a month ( I just learned yesterday that the loss of voice is another of the many, many symptoms of acute mercury poisoning). My brother fainted at work several times, and developed numbness in his extremities and loss of balance. Severe drop in blood pressure as well as the neurological symptoms (like mine after a tetanus booster) are more symptoms of acute mercury poisoning. He’s a big vaccine proponent, and doesn’t believe it, which goes to show what a powerful and mind-hijacking religion this is.
    Each dose of Fluzone, Flulaval, and Fluvirin from the multi-use vial has 25 mcg of mercury, Afluria 24.5, mcg. Is there any safe dose of the deadliest non-radioactive poison known to man? Those of us who have been damaged by it would say there is not.
    A Lancet review published in Feb. 2005, studied all studies of flu vaccine safety in children and found “clear evidence of systematic suppression of safety data.” Authors of the original studies were denied access to safety data from their own clinical trials. In one study, vaxed children had nearly twice as many adverse events as unvaxed children. When researchers contacted the vaccine manufacturer for the missing data on details on the adverse events, they were denied access to it because it was considered proprietary information. Jefferson, Tl, et al. “Assessment of the efficacy and effectiveness of influenza vaccines in healthy children: systematic review.” Lancet 2005; 365 (Feb. 26): 773-80.
    When the nasal spray flu vaccine FluMist was sought to be licensed in 2003, the FDA only permitted it to be given to children five or older because it caused a “statistically significant increase in asthma or reactive airways disease” in children under five. But in Sept. 2007, the FDA permitted it to be given to children as young as two. Medimmune, “FluMist, influenza virus vaccine live” June 2008, FEA. “FluMist live, attenuated influenza vaccine briefing document: prior approval supplemental BLA, indication extension to include children less than 5 years of g.”(Confidential document) FDA Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (April 19, 2007).
    It’s obviously not a good idea to walk on the RR tracks, especially when the train barreling toward you is Big Pharma’s Gravy Train Express.

  65. Gray Falcon says:

    You do know, Maura, that still means that the flu kills people. Now, which is more likely to make money: Preventing illness or treating it?

  66. Maura says:

    Yes, GF, I know that, and have never denied that occasionally people can die of the flu. They can also die or be crippled for life by the flu vaccine. People are entirely free to cast their lot on either side, but I think they should be aware of the dangers on both sides before making their decision.

  67. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – I believe Maura is another sock-puppet, since the old paralyzed by the flu vaccine has been used before by our notorious trolls.
    I’m still waiting for the anti-vaccine folks to answer the question as to what is more profitable – preventing or treating diseases……
    They also conveniently forget the 1918 Flu Pandemic – which killed as many as 100 million people worldwide, including over a million in the United States alone. Would they prefer that researchers and the CDC not keep an eye out for new mutations that could replicate that situation today?

  68. Lawrence says:

    @Maura – what are the relative risks between complications of the flu vs. the flu vaccine?
    Even materials cited by the anti-vaccine crowd admit that the flu vaccine is one of, if not the safest vaccine available today.

  69. Maura says:

    And I don’t understand your point when you ask which will make more money. Often ineffectually trying to prevent flu with the vaccine by pushing it on every human in the world is making billions, and if you just brush off the collateral damage as unrelated you don’t have to take responsibility for and pay for ineffectual treatment of the flu vaccine’s long list of possible adverse events like death, convulsions, myelitis, Bell’s palsy, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, encephalopathy, myasthenia, facial paralysis, general paralysis, neuropathy, optic neuritis, paresthesia, thrombocytopenia, lymphadenopahty, reactive arthritis, arthralgia, myalgia, wheezing, difficulty breathing, and asthma. But then someone usually pays for the attempted ineffectual treatment of these conditions, making a lot of money for medical professionals. Treating the flu itself is not as lucrative, since it’s a viral disease.

  70. Gray Falcon says:

    @Maura- If you want people to be aware of the dangers on both sides, why are you hiding the information we need to judge? What are the numbers? What damage has the vaccine done, precisely, and is it more dangerous than the flu? Without those, it is impossible to make that judgement. And I do not mean “impossible” as in very difficult, I mean “impossible” as in trying to create a round chisel.

  71. Gray Falcon says:

    Maura, treating the flu can be very lucrative: Antibiotics to prevent secondary infections, hospitalization, fluid supplements, little baby coffins, and so on.

  72. Chris says:


    They can also die or be crippled for life by the flu vaccine.

    Citation needed. Provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed study that shows more people die or are crippled by the flu vaccine than by any of the strains of influenza. This is the fourth time I have asked for this information on this thread, so be different than the sock puppets and actually answer the question.

  73. Lawrence says:

    @maura – as to the overall profitability of vaccines, one of our posters here, Chris, offered up a chart which showed that vaccines aren’t even in the top 20 “medical spend” in the United States – meaning that other “treatments” are actually more more expensive and “profitable” than vaccines.

  74. Maura says:

    If that is true, then why does Dr. Bob Sears put the flu vaccine as the most reactive vaccine next to the MMR?
    I have not forgotten the 1918 Spanish flu, it was horrifying, and I”ve read several books about it. Like the H1N1 flu three years ago, it struck young people in the prime of life much harder than older people, probably because their immune systems attacked it so violently that the immune response is what killed the host. Older people had partial immunity to it from their own previous contact with earlier mutations of the flu. But no other flu epidemic since that time has come close to comparing with it. Everyone alive at that time developed antibodies to it, which I found fascinating. This protection stood them in good stead since it gave them partial immunity to the subsequent mutations of flu.
    They tried to drum up terror three years ago, saying that the H1N1 world pandemic could easily become a similar flu, killing millions all over the world. I remember reading an article in Time about it sitting in the backyard in May 1999 watching our guinea pigs graze on grass. A friend was fixing our fence, and I said, This is ridiculous, they’re hyping this disease as though it were as dangerous as the 1918 flu. The friend said that he was afraid of it, and it might be true. That fall, a third of my ninety students were out sick with it. Within a week, every single last one of them was back in class. I never considered getting either the seasonal flu vaccine or the H1N1 vax when it finally came out, either for myself or my daughter. We both got it in January, I got it pretty badly, but I don’t regret my decision. I know a guy who had to get it for his daughter who was in preschool that fall, and the daughter regressed into autism as a result.
    A flu similar to the 1918 one is always possible, but I think it’s wiser to avoid damaging your immune system with this or any other vax, and then when a real killer epidemic occurs, your immune system might still have enough bounce to absorb a vaccine in desperate circumstances without severe reaction. Or maybe not. It’ll always be a decision you have to make taking into account a multitude of factors, and you may make the wrong decision. So it goes.

  75. Gray Falcon says:

    It will be much easier to make that decision if you actually provided evidence instead of accusations, Maura. Do you understand the difference? By your standards, I could easily accuse you of any number of horrible crimes, and tell everyone to lock you up and keep you out of society, “just in case”. We have standards of evidence for a reason.

  76. Lawrence says:

    @maura – because Dr. Sears isn’t an immunologist & has no idea what he’s actually talking about, perhaps? He also admits to not doing the research and basically pulls his ideas out of thin air.
    The moment that the CDC “underestimates” the effects of a disease (say something similar to the 1918 Pandemic does re-occur & it gets downplayed, then people start dying in droves), they get crucified by the public – and they also get hammered when they “overestimate” the effect of a particular disease… is a fine balancing act & I would prefer to be over-prepared & not under-prepared, just in case.
    1/3 of your class was sick & that’s considered “no big deal?” Sounds pretty serious to me.
    Please list your citations where vaccines “damage” your immune system.
    And even if the flu vaccine isn’t a “good” match in a particular year, people who are vaccinated and get infected, tend to have fewer symptoms and a less severe reaction to the actual flu – which means getting the vaccine is just as good as catching the flu in previous years – without the need to get reinfected each and every year by the actual flu itself.
    Do some real research for a change & don’t rely on celebrity doctors that are pandering to their anti-vaccine clientele.

  77. Chris says:

    Maura, please provide a citation showing that the flu vaccine is more dangerous than influenza. This is now the fifth time I have asked for the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that support that claim.
    Yes, Lawrence, I will ask her about the profitability. Maura go to page 30 of this pdf document. Look at the table and tell us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines.” Then explain what it means.
    When you are done you can tell us exactly how preventing influenza is more costly than treating the 200,000 who are hospitalized. You might want to see what is the second item on the table of the previous question.

  78. Miller says:

    It is well established that bacterial pneumonia and not the flu virus itself, killed the majority of the 20 to 100 million victims of the so-called Spanish flu. With the discovery of penicillin in 1928 and other antibiotics this should never happen again.

  79. Rational Antivax says:

    Chris :

    They can also die or be crippled for life by the flu vaccine.

    Citation needed. Provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed study that shows more people die or are crippled by the flu vaccine than by any of the strains of influenza. This is the fourth time I have asked for this information on this thread, so be different than the sock puppets and actually answer the question.

    Wake up Chris! The train is fast approaching. So you just want to keep your eyes close and ears plugged?

  80. Lawrence says:

    @Miller – would love to see your citations there….

  81. Rational Antivax says:

    please provide a citation showing that the flu vaccine is more dangerous than influenza. This is now the fifth time I have asked for the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that support that claim.

    Chris is amazingly blind, deaf and stupid.
    All aboard the GBS Express. Choo choooo!!!

  82. Lawrence says:

    @Miller- very interesting hypothesis there. Could certainly be a contributing factor & I also notice that the authors suggestions are primarily for a better matched flu vaccine (which is always the goal of current research, along with a more “universal” flu vaccine as well) and potential stockpiling of antibiotics – though that is somewhat of limited help, since the rise of antibiotic-resistant strains of various illnesses.
    Overall, the recommendation is to prevent the infection in the first place, which will prevent the need to treat potentially fatal secondary infections and complications.

  83. Lawrence says:

    Here are the conclusions:
    Why is it important to determine the major pathophysiologic pathways that led to deaths during the 1918–19 influenza pandemic? After all, the effective prevention and treatment of influenza infections during a future pandemic would prevent all secondary effects, including opportunistic bacterial pneumonias. Yet concerns exist that an effective strain-specific vaccine and effective antiviral drugs may not be produced and distributed to all at-risk populations in time to mitigate the effects of the next pandemic. In the absence of an effective influenza vaccine and antiviral drugs, circumstances during a modern influenza pandemic could resemble those in 1918–19, with the notable exception of the availability of bacterial vaccines and antibacterial drugs. The exclusive focus on the prevention and treatment of a novel strain of influenza virus is risky because it unnecessarily limits options and opportunities for other potentially effective prevention and treatment methods, especially in medically underserved populations in less-developed countries.
    We suggest that preparations for the next influenza pandemic should focus on more than preventing and treating influenza virus infections. A modified influenza pandemic plan might include the following components: 1) Before a pandemic, expand indications for and decrease barriers to receipt of vaccination against S. pneumoniae (36–38,40). 2) During a pandemic, in communities not yet affected, universally vaccinate with a safe and effective strain-specific influenza vaccine, if available. 3) During local epidemics, treat all serious clinical cases with an antibacterial agent that is effective against S. pneumoniae, S. pyogenes, H. influenzae, and S. aureus (including methicillin-resistant S. aureus); isolate patients with clinical cases from other patients and as many others as possible (35,37–39). 4) Conduct pandemic-related surveillance that tracks the incidence, nature (e.g., species, affected sites, antimicrobial drug sensitivities), and outcomes of bacterial infections that complicate influenza cases.
    Given highly variable colonization and drug-sensitivity patterns across populations and locations, stockpiles of antibacterial drugs should be tailored to their intended uses. Plans for providing medical care should include evidence-based triage and treatment algorithms and home-care treatment guidelines (including prepackaged antiviral and antibacterial drugs) to minimize hospitalizations and maximize home care. Perhaps most important, pandemic-related research activities (including laboratory animal studies, statistical models, and clinical trials) should elucidate the determinants and effects of bacterial pneumonias that occur secondary to influenza. Ultimately, research activities should determine the most effective uses of antibacterial drugs and bacterial vaccines (e.g., indications, agents, doses, and timing for prophylaxis and treatment) in preparation for and during pandemic influenza, particularly for medically underserved and other high-risk populations.

  84. Lawrence says:

    I like how an anti-vaccinationist might use this study as an indictment against vaccines, when the conclusion of the article is exactly the opposite (and also pushing for a wider distribution of the relevant pneumonia vaccines).

  85. Lawrence says:

    @Miller – thank you again for the citations / articles. I’ve always been fascinated by the 1918 Pandemic & this is good reading. I highlight this particular paragraph:
    The cause and timing of the next influenza pandemic cannot be predicted with certainty, the authors acknowledge, nor can the virulence of the pandemic influenza virus strain. However, it is possible that — as in 1918 — a similar pattern of viral damage followed by bacterial invasion could unfold, say the authors. Preparations for diagnosing, treating and preventing bacterial pneumonia should be among highest priorities in influenza pandemic planning, they write. “We are encouraged by the fact that pandemic planners are already considering and implementing some of these actions,” says Dr. Fauci.

  86. Chris says:

    One way to prevent those secondary bacterial infections would be to prevent the influenza through vaccination. Especially since according to Miller’s last link the influenza virus damaged cells:

    There also was evidence that the virus destroyed the cells lining the bronchial tubes, including cells with protective hair-like projections, or cilia. This loss made other kinds of cells throughout the entire respiratory tract — including cells deep in the lungs — vulnerable to attack by bacteria that migrated down the newly created pathway from the nose and throat.

    It is still much more expensive to provide respiratory support and antibiotics than preventing the infection with a vaccine.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      I believe that those who are posting who are anti-vaccine are all, and have always been, the same three or four people. We know who thingy is, irrationality like that cannot be hidden behind a sock puppet. I believe maura is cia parker yet again in another incarnation. Miller would either be Steve Michaels or Joe. It can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference between the two of them. There haven’t been any new anti-vaccine contributors to the comments for a very long time.
      I don’t even read most of their responses anymore simply because it’s pretty simple to tell, after the first few lines, who each incarnation is. If they have nothing new to bring to the discussion, and have failed to answer the very same questions being posed to them now that were with their previous identities, why would they answer now? My prediction is they will figure out, eventually (with the exception of thingy) that we aren’t going to accept their silence on the data front and their general insistence that they are right, wait a day, maybe two, and post the same argument under another new nym. They have basically turns us all in to the proverbial broken record.

  87. Lawrence says:

    @Lara – I’m willing to give Miller the benefit of the doubt, because he linked to actual published work & didn’t try to make a claim that wasn’t contained in the materials.
    But, I could be wrong.

  88. Gray Falcon says:

    I’m siding with Lawrence: Most trolls are one of two types: 1) never give sources beyond their own personal observation, or 2) grossly misstate the conclusions of the source. Miller appears to be neither, probably simply drew the wrong conclusion by accident, rather than design.

  89. lilady says:

    Maura is definitely a troll or a sockie with her ridiculous quoting of Dr. Bob Sears.
    BTW Maura, Sears whose deliberately unvaccinated seven year old patient traveled to Switzerland, contracted measles and was the index case in a major measles outbreak in San Diego recently.

  90. Jill says:

    agree with Dr. Sears that measles is very rarely serious in any age group, though it can be more serious in adults who failed to get the natural disease in childhood, the best age to get it and reap its benefits while avoiding its dangers. None of the children at his clinic who caught the measles from the child who had been in Switzerland (not that recently, at least ten years ago) died: they all made a complete recovery. Dr. Halvorsen in his book on vaccines says that the MMR was extremely hard to promote in Great Britain in the ’80s because all adults had had measles and knew it was nothing to be afraid of. (I had it, and I am not afraid of it either.) That means that many of us would say Who cares? if an unvaccinated patient gave measles to other children at his clinic. I wish I could have been there and given my daughter a chance to catch natural measles.
    Miller is not mistaken. How can you assert that he was? He gave a link to an official CDC study that is exactly what you guys always demand. I had read that many, if not most, of those who died of the Spanish influenza had pneumonia as a complication, and coughed their lungs out. Miller’s figures from the CDC prove that the flu in itself was not that virulent, and, as in the vast majority of epidemics, most people made a complete recovery, with antibodies that gave them partial protection for life in subsequent flu outbreaks. He believes that now that we have antibiotic therapy to treat bacterial pneumonia, that measure would prevent most of the deaths from influenza that occurred in the 1918 epidemic. I agree with him. Those who are more afraid of the vax than the disease can rest assured that we now have much better crisis care in the event of a severe case of this as well as other vaccine-preventable diseases.
    And got another one for you. A friend in Bulgaria sent me this article this morning, from Le monde (11.12.2012), “Un diurétique pour lutter contre l’autisme,” by Sandrine Cabut.
    It says that there was dramatic improvement in autistic children given the diuretic bumetanide, which pulls chlorine from the cells. I wrote him that my first thought was that it might have a chelating effect, I had read just the other day that one of the forms of mercury thought to cause autism is compounded with chlorine. Miller, do you have any thoughts on that? (I frankly don’t care about the opinion of the rest of you.)

  91. Jill says:
    An AAPS in-house survey of 800 doctors found that 80% thought that the flu vaccine should not be mandatory for medical personnel, and 150 physicians were willing to lose their staff privileges rather than get the flu shot. They were that afraid of it.

  92. Lawrence says:

    @Jill – first, Dr. Sears is not an expert in vaccines, nor is he an immunologist. If you look at the mortality figures for the Spanish Flu / 1918 :Pandemic, tens of millions of people died worldwide – how can you possibly reconcile that with the statement it was “not that virulent.” If anything, it may have been one of the most virulent diseases on record, traveling across the world – hitting even fairly isolated settlements in Siberia and Alaska, and killing a disproportional number of young and healthy adults.
    If a flu vaccine had been available in 1918, it would have prevented the many secondary infections / complications that did also kill large numbers of people – that much is evident and also very clearly stated in both of Miller’s citations (which is why I like them & don’t consider Miller to be a standard anti-vaccine troll). Clearly, if you don’t catch the flu, you don’t suffer the subsequent bout of pneumonia that kills you – hence the need to be vaccinated.
    What you, and most other anti-vaccination folks don’t understand or comprehend, is that vaccines are the only way we have to prevent individuals from getting diseases in the first place. Sure, the vast majority of people who get infected (by anything) do survive – because most illnesses have mortality rates in the sub 1% – 5% category. Of course, the most virulent smallpox cases had mortality rates from 30% – 98%, depending on which strain you got (diseases have evolved over time – if they kill too quickly, they don’t get the change to replicate and spread).
    Sure, the vast majority of kids today who do or would get vaccine preventable diseases won’t die – most, in fact, will recover without ill effect. What you can’t change or can’t prevent is the much higher rate of side-effects that will occur among the children who do get these diseases – including blindness, deafness, secondary opportunistic infections, sterility, encephalitis, congenital birth defects from Rubella-infected pregnant mothers (over ten thousand children / fetuses died in the last major Rubella outbreak in the 1960’s), and other known REAL side-effects from these diseases.
    There is a reason we have very few dedicated schools for the blind and deaf anymore (look it up, they used to exist all over the country), because children aren’t exposed to the very diseases that caused the vast majority of these cases and required all of those slots in those schools. We also don’t have Iron Lung wings in hospitals anymore or TB quarantine wards, because of our vastly improved health care system & of course, vaccines to prevent disease outbreaks in the first place.
    Unlike the thoroughly disproven vaccine-autism link, we have tons of evidence about the REAL link between vaccine-preventable diseases and major childhood disabilities and deaths over the years. Yes, with modern medical care, we can save more children from dying in the case of a major outbreak, but what we can’t do is change the rate of side-effects that occur from these diseases which occur at a much higher (a magnitude or more) than any of the vaccine side-effects, which don’t include things like autism – because the link doesn’t exist.
    As to chelation – which you are obviously a fan (despite no evidence that heavy metals have anything to do with autism & heavy metal poisoning is completely different, with a different set of symptoms) – please explain which vaccines supposedly have mercury compounded with Chlorine? Besides the parents of autistic children that purposely “bleach” their children with MMS, again, another autism treatment that now seems to be at cross-purposes with your “treatment of the week,” mentality.
    Seriously, you need to do some real research – because you have no idea what you are actually talking about.

  93. Lawrence says:

    @Jill – also in Miller’s citations, it talks about the need for a wider distribution of the variety of pneumonia vaccines that are available as well – since this would also help.
    And, if you did have to use massive amounts of antibiotics in another 1918-type situation, you would have to worry about different strains developing immunities to the antibiotics, thus creating even more problems down the road.

  94. Lawrence says:

    @Jill – AAPS is a notorious anti-vaccine organization & not reputable.

  95. Lawrence says:

    @Jill – and given the widespread pandemic that occurred in 1918, how exactly would you deliver high-quality health care across a couple of hundreds countries to tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of people that might require it?

  96. Chris says:


    agree with Dr. Sears that measles is very rarely serious in any age group, though it can be more serious in adults who failed to get the natural disease in childhood, the best age to get it and reap its benefits while avoiding its dangers.

    Oh, really? You are doing to ignore that before the measles vaccine an average of five hundred children died from measles? Or the thousands that became permanently disabled with blindness, deafness or mental retardation? You should really read The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review. Plus find out what happened to Roald Dahl’s oldest child when she had measles, one way is to get his book The BFG and read the dedication to her.

    None of the children at his clinic who caught the measles from the child who had been in Switzerland (not that recently, at least ten years ago) died: they all made a complete recovery.

    There were several babies who were too young to be vaccinated who were victims of that outbreak. At least one almost died in the hospital. One consequence of getting measles that young is SSPE, which causes the child to neurologically deteriorate and then die when they are older. So the last part of your statement is wrong.
    Jill, if you have read all of this thread you would have learned that five children have already died from influenza this season. It does not reflect well on you that you dismiss that statistic.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Jill is yet another incarnation of cia parker. She has used the exact same arguments as before and I’ve never known anyone but cia to quote Sears as though his words and his book were the bible, yet she does, and now so does Jill and so did Maura too come to that. She also loves to down play the permanent damage and death that happens all the time from VPDs and instead makes it out as though it happens much more often with vaccines when it does not. This is classic cia stuff. Awesome job to Lawrence and Chris refuting her flawed assumptions yet again, it’s got to get old rehashing the same things every few months though, hehe. I’m not autistic, but sometimes with things I read, my memory acts like I am.

  97. Rational Antivax says:

    One consequence of getting measles that young is SSPE, which causes the child to neurologically deteriorate and then die when they are older.

    And one consequence as well for being an infection promoter like Chris.

    The first published case report of SSPE in a child with a history of vaccination with live attenuated measles vaccine appeared in 1968 and was described above (Schneck, 1968). In the following 5 years, several more reports of SSPE in individuals vaccinated against measles appeared (Cho et al., 1973; Gerson and Haslam, 1971; Jabbour et al., 1972; Klajman et al., 1973; Landrigan and Witte, 1973; Parker et al., 1970; Payne et al., 1969). These reports represented a total of 22 patients with SSPE, 7 of whom had a history of both measles and measles vaccination (Gerson and Haslam, 1971; Jabbour et al., 1972). The other 15 patients had a negative history for measles and a positive history for receipt of live attenuated measles vaccine (Cho et al., 1973; Jabbour et al., 1972; Klajman et al., 1973; Landrigan and Witte, 1973; Parker et al., 1970; Payne et al., 1969; Schneck, 1968). For two of those 15 patients, exposure to measles virus was probable, but clinical measles was not recorded (Landrigan and Witte, 1973; Parker et al., 1970). The latency between vaccination against measles and the onset of SSPE symptoms ranged from 3 weeks (Landrigan and Witte, 1973; Schneck, 1968) to 5 years (Cho et al., 1973).
    Of course, you can continue reading this while you’re nonchalantly walking down the train track.

  98. Chris says:

    One other tactic of the person who is opposed to truthful vaccine evidence is to use older outdated documents, instead of more recent research which includes technology not available in the 1970s:
    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
    I shall now repeat this request for the sixth time; please provide a citation showing that the flu vaccine is more dangerous than influenza. The citation should title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that support the claim that the influenza is more dangerous than influenza.

  99. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – kudos for showing what an idiot InsaneTroll is…..too bad he/she lives in a reality completely divorced from the rest of the world….

  100. Rational Antivax says:

    Thank you Chris for not denying that measles vaccines DO cause SSPE.

  101. Chris says:

    She lives on Htrae. Also, the paper I cited is available for free and includes discussion on the limitations of the 1970s data.

  102. Lawrence says:

    @Chris – it has been an interesting run with Insane Troll – first encountered her on an online discussion a couple of years ago & I had no idea how crazy she actually was until stumbling on to her ramblings on Orac’s blog.
    Since that time, she’s been a one trick pony & quite divorced from reality. I’m certain that she resides in some kind of mental institution or other care facility.

  103. Rational Antivax says:

    What limitation? Here’s a clue. These vaccine scientists in the 1960’s were ignoramus about measles causing SSPE until after the widespread measles inoculation. The current method of diagnosing SSPE is actually based on the SSPE registry established in 1972.
    Funny. Your papers do not contest the fact that measles vaccine causes SSPE. Of course I am talking to a nonmedical poster here named Chris who up to now is absolutely clueless about primary measles infection.

  104. Rational Antivax says:

    Chris if ever you’re an honest person and you care about children, please don’t tell them to “stand on the train track”.

  105. Lawrence says:

    @et. al. – Welcome to the Insane Troll One Trick Pony Show!!!!

  106. Rational Antivax says:

    I shall now repeat this request for the sixth time; please provide a citation showing that the flu vaccine does not cause SSPE. The citation should title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that support the claim that the influenza vaccine does not cause SSPE.

    Tasting your own medicine is actually good for you Chris.

  107. Gray Falcon says:

    Amusing thought: If you stand on a railroad track, you will most likely get hit by a train. If you stand away from the track, there’s a small possibility you will be mauled by a bear. By Th1Th2’s logic, that means you’re just as safe doing one as the other, since both have a risk involved.

  108. lilady says:

    @ Jill/Parker:
    “agree with Dr. Sears that measles is very rarely serious in any age group, though it can be more serious in adults who failed to get the natural disease in childhood, the best age to get it and reap its benefits while avoiding its dangers. None of the children at his clinic who caught the measles from the child who had been in Switzerland (not that recently, at least ten years ago) died: they all made a complete recovery.”
    You are wrong Jill/Parker. The San Diego measles outbreak occurred 4 years ago. The index case who acquired measles in Switzerland was Dr. Bob Sears patient and was deliberately not vaccinated against measles.
    Sears got a bit perturbed at me when I politely questioned him on his Huffington Post blog, about the index patient and the measles outbreak:
    BTW Jill/Parker: Why do you persistently post here using sockies. Are you that pathetic that you need the attention….even though the attention you garner is dismissive and derisive?

  109. Wonder Girl says:

    So was the index case Dr. Bobs patient before or after the incidence?

  110. Rational Antivax says:

    Such an u-BEAR-ably stupid metaphor you got there Gray. Of course, you can always add that to your infinite collection of inane ideas.

  111. Lawrence says:

    @Wonder Girl – it was before, the family was part of his practice.

  112. Wonder Girl says:

    According to the Doc, it was after. That’s why I asked. It doesn’t really matter anyway.

  113. Lawrence says:

    @WonderGirl – I believe people should take disease outbreaks seriously, don’t you?

  114. Lawrence says:

    @wondergirl – the index case was a patient of Dr. Sears…..that much is evident from the reports.

  115. Wonder Girl says:

    Yes, take it seriously, but not a need to argue about Dr. Sears, that’s what I meant. It is evident that the index case was Dr. Sears patient, but what isn’t clear is if said patient was his before or after the incident. lilady implied before and Dr. Sears implied otherwise.

  116. Lawrence says:

    @WonderGirl – Dr. Sears may have implied otherwise, but the CDC and subsequent reporting identified the index patient as belonging to Dr. Sear’s practice.
    You don’t take a kid with the measles to just any pediatrician….you bring them to “your” pediatrician.

  117. lilady says:

    “Yes, take it seriously, but not a need to argue about Dr. Sears, that’s what I meant. It is evident that the index case was Dr. Sears patient, but what isn’t clear is if said patient was his before or after the incident. lilady implied before and Dr. Sears implied otherwise”
    You’re the poster who was touting Dr. Bob Sears’ “alternative vaccination schedule” and touting his “expertise” about measles, Wonder Girl.
    Sears wanted to do some “some damage” control, but I nailed him with the MMWR Outbreak report:
    “In January 2008, measles was identified in an unvaccinated boy from San Diego, California, who had recently traveled to Europe with his family. After his case was confirmed, an outbreak
    investigation and response were initiated by local and state health departments in coordination with CDC, using standard measles surveillance case definitions and classifications.* This report summarizes the preliminary results of that investigation, which has identified 11 additional cases of measles in unvaccinated children† in San Diego that are linked epidemiologically to the index case and include two generations of secondary transmission. Recommendations for preventing further measles transmission from importations in this and other U.S. settings include reminding health-care providers to 1) consider a diagnosis of measles in ill persons who have traveled overseas, 2) use appropriate infection-control practices to prevent transmission in health-care settings, and 3) maintain high coverage with measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine among children.”
    “The index patient was an unvaccinated boy aged 7 years who had visited Switzerland with his family, returning to the United States on January 13, 2008. He had fever and sore throat on January 21, followed by cough, coryza, and conjunctivitis. On January 24, he attended school. On January 25, the date of his rash onset, he visited the offices of his family physician and his pediatrician.”
    The “index patient” visited two physicians on January 25…”his pediatrician” that he visited was Dr. Bob Sears.
    “A diagnosis of scarlet fever was ruled out on the basis of a negative rapid test for streptococcus. When the boy’s condition became worse on January 26, he visited a children’s hospital inpatient laboratory, where blood specimens were collected for measles antibody testing; later that day, he was taken to the same hospital’s emergency department because of high fever 104°F (40°C) and generalized rash. No isolation precautions were instituted at the doctors’ offices or hospital facilities.
    The boy’s measles immunoglobulin M (IgM) positive laboratory test result was reported to the county health department on February 1, 2008. During January 31–February 19, a total of 11 additional measles cases in unvaccinated infants and children aged 10 months–9 years were identified.”
    “These 11 cases included both of the index patient’s siblings (rash onset: February 3), five children in his school (rash onset: January 31–February 17), and four additional children (rash onset: February 6–10) who had been in the pediatrician’s office on January 25 at the same time as the index patient. Among these latter four patients, three were infants aged <12 months. One of the three infants was hospitalized for 2 days for dehydration; another infant traveled by airplane to Hawaii on February 9 while infectious."
    The "index" case who was Dr. Sears' patient infected both of his siblings, 5 additional children in his school and four additional children who had been in the pediatrician's (Dr. Sears) office on January 25th at the same time as the "index patient" (waiting room transmission). Three of the four children who were infected in Sears' office were infants less that 12 months of age (too young to have started the 2-dose measles vaccine series) and one of those infants was hospitalized for 2 days for dehydration/rehydration. Another infant traveled to Hawaii on February 9th while infectious.
    Try looking up the complicated process of notifying passengers who were exposed to a measles-infected infant…and the complicated surveillance activities performed by public health epidemiologists, with hundreds of airplane passengers, Wonder Girl.
    "Two generations of measles cases were identified. The first generation (eight cases) included the index patient's two siblings, two playmates from his school, and the four children from the pediatrician's office. The second generation cases included three children from the index patient's school: a sibling of a child from the first generation and two friends of one of the index patient's siblings (Figure)."
    Dr Sears is a public health menace, whose "alternative vaccine schedule" led to the San Diego Measles outbreak four years ago.

  118. Wonder Girl says:

    I was??

  119. Wonder Girl says:

    Forgot this , “You’re the poster who was touting Dr. Bob Sears’ “alternative vaccination schedule” and touting his “expertise” about measles, Wonder Girl.”

  120. Rational Antivax says:

    Dr Sears is a public health menace, whose “alternative vaccine schedule” led to the San Diego Measles outbreak four years ago.

    Instead of castigating Sears, you should be thankful of him supporting the very myth that vaccinators are always bragging about.

    Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

    But knowing these vaccinators for a long time, you would know they always contradict themselves.

  121. Chris says:

    That seems to be going a bit off topic. It really does not matter if the child was a patient of Dr. Sears or not. The point is that several children became very ill due to the actions of one family, especially the babies. The story is here, it will start playing automatically:

  122. Wonder Girl says:

    That was exactly my point, but for some reason lilady has a bad attitude!

  123. Chris says:

    But, point remains that Dr. Sears is not a reliable source for vaccine information. The following is a more scientific look at his notions from a pediatrician: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

  124. Rational Antivax says:

    The point is that several children became very ill due to the actions of one family, especially the babies.

    The CDC would be happy if this happened to be an OPV recipient shedding out virulent poliovirus and causing secondary infection to the susceptible.
    And to appease the gullible, the CDC will simply call it “passive immunity”
    Enough of the whining Chris. Blame the inept medical community for failing to recognize measles let alone contain and isolate the infected.

  125. Wonder Girl says:

    Who are you talking to?

  126. Chris says:

    Anyone who thinks. Dr. Bob Sears is an authority on vaccines. He is not.

  127. Wonder Girl says:

    Not sure what is WRONG with the posters here, you all are very, very rude!

  128. Chris says:

    Your concerns have been duly noted. There are many who lurk, and we also need to include them. My apologies if you find that offensive.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Wonder Girl :
      Not sure what is WRONG with the posters here, you all are very, very rude!

      I’m curious what exactly you believe was rude. From what I could see, everyone has actually been quite courteous. What is it that you have found rude?

  129. lilady says:

    I don’t have a bad attitude Wonder Girl…unless you think providing facts about the measles outbreak in San Diego where the “index case” was Dr. Bob Sears patient…and correcting your flippant remark that the outbreak occurred 10 years ago. (The outbreak was in 2008…4 years ago)
    – The “Index Case” was Bob Sears’ patient BEFORE he went to Switzerland, got exposed to measles and returned to infect unvaccinated children (his own siblings), school contacts and babies too young to have been immunized with the 2-shot MMR series.
    -Sears’ deliberately unvaccinated patient caused the largest measles outbreak since 1991…17 years prior. The intensive surveillance conducted by the San Diego Health Department with assistance from the State health department and staff from the CDC, involved 980 separate exposures, resulted in 60 youngsters being placed in home-bound quarantine and the exposure of 160 passengers aboard a plane to Hawaii.
    -Sears lied about a prior contact with Seth Mnookin author of the “Panic Virus” and lied about an article in the Orange Counter Register which identified him as the “index case’s” doctor before and during the measles outbreak.
    I’m perfectly willing to stay on-topic…as long as other posters do the same.

  130. Rational Antivax says:

    Sears’ deliberately unvaccinated patient[•••]

    Really? Deliberately unvaccinated? Where did you pull that from?

    Naturally acquired immunity occurs through contact with a disease causing agent, when the contact was not deliberate, whereas acquired immunity develops only through deliberate actions such as vaccination.

    I guess, even…

    babies too young to have been immunized with the 2-shot MMR series.

    are also deliberately unvaccinated, no?
    If someone stands away from the train track is not a deliberate action; it’s called common sense.
    Those who prefer otherwise are suicidal maniacs.

  131. Lawrence says:

    @Chris & Lilady – once again, a poster takes the typical trajectory of an anti-vaccine troll. They start with acting like they are open-minded, but with questions about a portion of the “vaccine story” and when they are educated or corrected, it begins the downward slide towards being offended, spouting the typical anti-vaccine myths as facts, etc…..
    A shame, really.

  132. Rational Antivax says:

    “Deliberately unvaccinated”
    You will never hear this again from the vaccinators. Ever.
    Babies are too young to be vaccinated? Well, hell yes. That’s why you nobody should purposely, deliberately or intentionally infect ( thru natural infection and inoculation) them. So stop asking that inane question, Lawrence.

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