Home > Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research > Battleground States for School Vaccination Exemption Policies

Battleground States for School Vaccination Exemption Policies

The figure above shows the estimated percentage of children enrolled in kindergarten who were exempt from receiving one or more vaccines in the United States, during the 2011-12 school year.

Recently the CDC released data regarding the vaccination coverage and exemption rates among U.S. children in Kindergarten for the 2011-2012 school year.  Upon first look, the top line analysis of the data doesn’t appear to be too concerning.

Total exemption rates, including medical, religious, and philosophic exemptions, among 49 reporting states and DC, ranged from less than 0.1% to 7.0%, which translates to a median total exemption level of about 1.5%.   Not too shabby, huh? 

But here’s the thing about data charts.  Sometimes you have to take your analysis a bit deeper.  

While 10 states can boast exemption rates of less than 1%, there were 9 states that reported exemption rates greater than 4%.  In fact, Alaska’s rates were as high as 7%, and in Oregon, the non-medical exemption rate alone was as high as 5.8%.

These figures highlight a growing concern.  While national levels of vaccination coverage may seem at or near target levels, certain states and localities are seeing dangerously low vaccination rates for some extremely transmissible diseases.  Unfortunately, concentrated numbers of unvaccinated children contribute to the possibility of disease outbreaks which then presents an unnecessary threat to all our children.  Yes, even those who are vaccinated, because no vaccine is 100% effective in 100% of the population, 100% of the time.    (If you’re unsure why a vaccinated child may be at risk of disease, check out another one of my blog posts here.)

Studies, like those compiled by The Immunization Action Coalition, suggest that personal belief exemptions for vaccinations are putting people at risk.

 “Several recent outbreaks of measles, pertussis, and varicella (chickenpox) have been traced to pockets of unvaccinated children in states that allow personal belief exemptions. To understand the impact of vaccine refusal, examine the evidence for yourself.”

The concern, as documented in various reports, is that the process of acquiring a school vaccine exemption seems to be related to the number of exemptions that are filed.  The studies show that easier standards for exemptions are typically associated with higher levels of exemption.  This helps to explain why many states are re-examining their school vaccine exemption policies.  They want fewer exemptions and less disease.

So here is a snapshot of what is currently going on in a two states that are pushing for new exemption policies.

California Bill AB 2109

For the past few months there has been an ongoing discussion regarding the impact of a bill that will require parents to visit a health care provider to ensure they are adequately informed about the consequences of not vaccinating prior to getting approval for a philosophical exemption.  The bill is not intended to limit a parent’s ability to get an exemption, only to make the process of getting one similar to that which parents must go through when adhering to the policies.  The hope is that this will reduce the number of exemptions that are filed as a matter of convenience.

A few weeks ago, Catherine Martin, the California Immunization Coalition Director, was interviewed on Fresno Public Radio (KVPR).  She discussed the bill requirements, commonly held myths about immunizations, how schools would work with parents, the importance of vaccinating and even highlighted the positive impact of a similar law that was passed in Washington State:

“Washington State passed a similar law to the one we are sending to the Governor’s office and they had a huge problem there. Their exception rate was 6% whereas California is 2.5%. In the first 11 months of implementation, their exception rate went down to 4.5%, so we think this is a good example of what can happen when parents have more information.”

The link to the live interview is available here and starts around 5:45 minutes in to the program.

As of today, the bill has successfully made it’s way through the state legislative process, and the Governor has until September 30th to sign it.  However, as explained in a post on Respectful Insolence today, the opposition has planned a rally for tomorrow as a last-ditch attempt to put pressure on the Governor to veto the bill.  With both the support of the Senate and House, one would expect that the Governor will sign it and that CA will soon have a new policy in place.

New Jersey S 1759 

New Jersey has also set out to modify their exemption policies.  Not only are they looking to eliminate personal belief exemptions, but also tighten the restriction on religious belief exemptions.  Under the new bill, medical exemptions would be granted when a parent can present a written statement from a physician “indicating that the vaccine is medically contraindicated for a specific period of time” and why.  Additionally, religious exemptions would require a parent to submit a written statement that:

  • outlines the religious tenet or practice and explains the conflict;
  • makes clear that the objection is not solely a political or philosophical belief or related to concerns about vaccine safety;
  • and shows that the student or parents understand “the risks and benefits of vaccination to the student and the public health,” vouched for by a signed statement from a physician saying that the student has been informed of the risk.

As I follow the progress of this legislation, it is encouraging to hear how strongly the legislation’s sponsors, State Senate Majority Leader Loretta Weinberg and Senator Joseph F. Vitale, speak about the importance of protecting public health.

Weinberg’s statements included the following:

 “Unfortunately, the issue of student immunizations is an emotionally-charged topic, with scientifically unfounded and discredited information standing in as fact.  While we need to be mindful of legitimate medical and religious reasons for students abstaining from vaccinations, we should not give credence to false science and put the public health in jeopardy.”

Senator Vitale, chairman of the senate’s health, human services and senior citizens committee adds,

 “While we want to respect people’s religious beliefs and legitimate medical concerns, we cannot allow widespread exemption from immunization based on fear and false science. Not only does it put the student at risk, but it creates a risk to the general public health and well-being.”

As more and more states consider modifying their existing policies, it will be interesting to see how the parents will receive these changes.  Some may consider it an imposition, while others may recognize the importance of the changes, thought not feel passionate enough to express their support to their elected officials.

Personally, I suspect that many exemptions are filed more out of convenience than out of personal or religious conviction.  That is why I feel that if we are to allow people to exempt their children from school vaccines than it is reasonable to ask that the exemptions they are seeking are no easier to obtain than the vaccinations themselves.

As a parent, I will support those policies that help to keep our children and our community free from preventable diseases.   However, I realize that people have differing opinions when it comes to school vaccination policies.  What do you suspect is the biggest opposition to the tightening of exemption policies and what are your concerns regarding these changes?  

  1. September 27, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    I’ve very happy to see that Maryland was in the >1% category. My kids have their next series of wellness visits coming up & will be starting public school soon – so its good to know that we are in a high-vaccine compliance state.

    Like

  2. September 27, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    It is also important to remember that even when state exemptions rates aren’t high, your local rates may be. At the Mountain Laurel Waldorf School in New Paltz, New York, where there was a confirmed case of measles this month, more than half of the students weren’t vaccinated and were sent home for at least 21 days.

    Like

  3. September 27, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    @Dr. Vincent – exactly. Again, do parent’s today want to take the chance that their children would be out of school for at least three weeks (perhaps more, if the outbreak is a bad one, or their child gets sick)? Who will pay for child care or better yet, will their employers be understanding when one of two working parents have to stay home for three or four weeks taking care of a child sick with a vaccine-preventable disease?

    Also, what about those children who are medically-incapable of getting vaccinated? They are also at risk in any type of outbreak.

    Get the real facts people – talk to your pediatricians & get yourself educated with evidence and research, not the fear-mongering of the anti-vaccine cranks.

    Like

  4. Amber
    September 27, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    This is sick and disgusting! You should be ashamed of yourselves!! I’ll fight any law trying to force vaccination on my children or force me to go to a MD or Pedi to be “well educated”. Guaranteed I’ll educate the Dr. myself on my information and they will NOT be able to prove me wrong, bam got my “not medical” medical exemption. You all have got to open your eyes because it’s not about us, our children suffer from our ignorance.

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  5. September 27, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @amber – got any evidence or citations to back up that rant of yours?

    Because I have this:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    That shows you are wrong.

    Like

  6. lilady
    September 27, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Try and educate us on “your information” Amber, about vaccines. What is a “not medical medical exemption”, Amber?

    Like

  7. Chris
    September 27, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Amber:

    You all have got to open your eyes because it’s not about us, our children suffer from our ignorance.

    Like all of the unvaccinated kids who have had to miss school in both Arkansas and New York because they either came down with measles, or were told to stay home.

    And actually the California bill just says that you need to get the exemption signed by a health care provider. Get that done and you can send your kids to school. But remember that if there is an outbreak of a communicable disease like measles, mumps or chicken pox, they will have to stay home.

    And do tell us what your information is that is so much better than what a person with a medical degree or the public health department have. We would very much like to hear how the MMR is so much more dangerous than either mumps or measles. But remember we only what verifiable facts. So just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your statements, and make sure they are not done by someone who can no longer practice medicine due to disciplinary action, or is associated with such a person.

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  8. Amber
    September 27, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    doctorwithin.com “Vaccination is not Immunization” He has the best references for you!! Not one MD or Pediatrician will even consider debated Dr. Tim O’shea on vaccines because he will knock them dead with research and facts, he has tried countless times to get a debate with two medical professionals and they refuse to do it, odd how if it’s so true and backed up by facts and the CDC why wont they allow them to debate it? Because they would lose easily!! When you have the news and media on puppet strings then you’re in control, they stay safely behind their drones. And really you think a CDC post should mean anything to me at all? Believing that they are honest and have our HEALTH in their best interest is the purest form of stupidity!! I don’t have to argue about it, I have my sound mind knowing my child is well and will not be harmed by the last legal form of chemical injection in humans, now we just all willingly take the drugs they tell us to, they’ve done got us trained from our well checks as babies.

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  9. Chris
    September 27, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    I am sorry, Amber, that is not the kind of verifiable information we are looking for. You are welcome to post the papers they have published in a journal with a good impact factor. Something like “Vaccine” or one of the journal from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

    Also, Tim O’Shea is a chiropractor and does not have any training in immunology, epidemiology, pediatrics or infectious disease. Also there is no real information on his website. It is only a catalog of videos and books that he sells. A good rule of thumb is to not get any kind of medical information if it requests your credit card information for that information.

    Please, again, try to tell us what verifiable information that shows the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. It needs to be from someone who actually is qualified on the subject, and does not require payment.

    I will also remind you that the comment policy here says:

    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and

    So far you have used personal attacks by saying: “This is sick and disgusting! You should be ashamed of yourselves!!” and have advertised for a chiropractor’s business.

    Like

  10. September 27, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Amber :
    He has the best references for you! …. Dr. Tim O’shea on vaccines

    I took a look at his site.

    He states that “The healthiest people in human history were groups who were geographically isolated from “civilization.” ”

    Sounds interesting. Can you provide me with the names of some of these groups?

    Like

  11. Chris
    September 27, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Well it is definitely not this group in this NY Times article:

    There seems to be little that distinguishes the indigenous Tsimane of northern Bolivia from dozens of other native Amazonian peoples. They still live in small communities, fishing daily, hunting and relying on subsistence farming. They remain relatively isolated from the outside world. They still have large families and fall victim to parasites, worms and infectious diseases.

    Perhaps Tim O’Shea, DC think this is healthy:

    About 4 to 6 percent of the Tsimane die before age 1, according to the project’s unpublished estimates. (That’s down from 12 percent in 2002, when Dr. Kaplan and Dr. Gurven began their work; reductions in child and maternal mortality have been the team’s most notable public health contribution.) About 15 percent die before age 5.

    Amber, are you okay with us going back to the days a century ago when it was common for a family to bury at least one child? My grandmother’s parents buried both of their sons before they reached the age of seven. Do get us those verifiable references on the dangers of the MMR vaccine versus measles, mumps and rubella.

    Like

  12. September 27, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    @Chris – once again, we are dazzled by the evidence-filled posts by the typical anti-vaccine loon….(not)

    Like

  13. Chris
    September 27, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Lawrence, might I suggest that instead of “anti-vaccine loon” you use “those who oppose vaccines.” I am trying to comply to the comment policy to the letter. Even still, I am told I am too mean.

    Like

  14. September 27, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    @Chris – my apologies, in the future, I will attempt to be more “nice” in my criticism.

    Like

  15. Quokka
    September 27, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    A bit OT but not really – I told a natropath friend she was “hiding in the herd” and she accused me of calling her a cow. I am still trying to think of an alternative that can’t possibly be misinterpreted.

    When I have used the term anti-vaccine or opposed to vaccines I am told they are advocates for safe vaccines and I should be too!

    Nomenclature can be so difficult – as anyone working with children will know when they have to discuss terminology surrounding intellectual disability.

    Would love some help with this.

    Like

  16. September 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    @Quokka – community immunity, perhaps?

    Like

  17. Chris
    September 27, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    I sometimes use “community immunity.” It rhymes. Just tell them that you are also an advocate of safe vaccines just like John Salamone:

    John Salamone, who had a child who suffered polio through a rare consequence of the oral polio vaccine, is a perfect example of a safety activist. He lobbied the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CDC to move from the live oral polio vaccine to the inactivated polio vaccine. He put a face to the children who suffered vaccine-associated paralytic polio every year, and that made a difference. But Salamone’s contentions were science-based.

    And then remind them that the vaccines are vastly safer than any of the diseases, and if they have real verifiable evidence to the contrary then to please present it.

    Like

  18. Quokka
    September 27, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Brilliant – thanks Lawrence and Chris.

    Like

  19. lilady
    September 27, 2012 at 11:19 pm

    @ Quokka: How about telling your friend that she is a “free rider”?

    When the “free riders” state they are *advocates for safe vaccine*…question them about their ability (their *espertise*), to determine which vaccines are safe…and which aren’t “in their opinion”.

    Like

  20. Lara Lohne
    September 27, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    How come when I try to go to doctorwithin.com it redirects me to a website http://guaifenesin.com/ which has nothing on it but the following statement: “For information on the use of guaifenesin for fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue and similar ailments, please go to the main support site http://fibromyalgiatreatment.com

    Perhaps my script blocker and anti-virus programs are working over time and not allowing me to go to this site simply because there is way too much spyware and malware on the site. Interesting because that generally doesn’t happen on a legit site. All you guys who were able to get there, you may want to scan your systems for crap that may have been installed on it or downloaded by going there.

    Would the phrase vaccine refusers be appropriate to use? They do actually call themselves that also and remember our own cia/ella/meg/anne doesn’t disapprove or find it offensive. I will not actually refer to any of them as vaccine safety advocates, because I think, when all is said and done, we would all like vaccines to be safer, but for those like us who know there is no such place as Nirvana, we have what we have right now and it is better then trying to go it alone. When something better comes along, of course I’ll jump on that, but for the time being, I’ll take whatever is the best we have to offer.

    I like community immunity, it’s catchy, and honestly while I wouldn’t get offended and ask if someone was calling me a cow, I can kind of see the point, it does kind of take the humanity out of it.

    Like

  21. Lara Lohne
    September 27, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    I noticed that Amber hasn’t responded. Perhaps it’s just too late in the evening for her. I am curious though to know what else she has to offer. I mean, she is so sure in her beliefs, I’d like her to try and convince me.

    Like

  22. Christine Vara
    September 27, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    @Quokka – I have to agree that I prefer the term “community immunity”. The average person is just not familiar with the term “herd immunity” and even when they can understand the meaning in context, it can come off as kind of offensive. Additionally, I have noticed that public health messages are more frequently using the term community immunity in their outreach lately. I have to admit that I think the term is more descript which may help in the messaging.

    @Chris – Thank you for mentioning the wonderful advocacy of John Salamone. It’s a wonder that he isn’t discussed more frequently, especially among those people who question the safety of vaccines. He should really be their role model as he was so effective in lobbying for change.

    Like

  23. Christine Vara
    September 27, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    @Lara I have to say that when I hear the words “vaccine refuser” I’m never really sure what to think. Do they refuse to acknowledge that vaccines work or do they just refuse vaccines because they think they are dangerous? Or do they simply refuse to believe that they are even necessary? See, I just don’t really get it.

    Like

  24. lilady
    September 28, 2012 at 12:37 am

    I think Quokka was using that phrase “hide in the herd”, because that was the advice given to parents, by a pediatrician who published a book with “alternative vaccine schedules”.

    That same pediatrician’s deliberately unvaccinated 7 year old patient, was the *index* case in this measles outbreak in San Diego, California:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    Like

  25. Lara Lohne
    September 28, 2012 at 1:17 am

    @Christine, good point, but to a degree I think for those core individuals we are speaking of, all those are applicable. But I don’t really consider any of them vaccine safety advocates because they aren’t trying to lobby or support research to create safer vaccines, they are trying to convince as many as they can that the current vaccines are unsafe, even if they have to resort to lying and data twisting to make their point.

    Like

  26. lilady
    September 28, 2012 at 2:07 am

    @ Lara Lohne: Let’s not forget that Quokka’s friend is a *naturopath* which by their beliefs are solidly against vaccines. 🙂

    Like

  27. September 28, 2012 at 5:25 am

    @Lara – The phrase “vaccine-safety advocate” is a bit like calling a Luddite a “modern technology safety advocate.” Those individuals that attempt to use that phrase to portray themselves as “not anti-vaccine, just safe vaccine” are extremely disingenuous, since they can’t seem to find even a single vaccine they agree with (even rabies) or put anything in writing as to what, in their mind, constitutes a “safe vaccine.”

    At least the few that advocate for a more “spread out” vaccine schedule don’t reject vaccines entirely, but you don’t hear from them very often & they are usually shouted down by the more extreme elements of “those who reject vaccines.”

    Like

  28. Lara Lohne
    September 28, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    So without pandering to their wannabe status, what do we refer to them as without potentially offending them or violating the comments policy? There are some people who are just too sensitive these days, you call them cute and they will find a reason to see it as offensive some how.

    Like

  29. Chris
    September 28, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Parents of children who are not vaccinated? Those who have not vaccinated their children?

    Like

  30. Lara Lohne
    September 28, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    Ooh, how about an acronym! PWDV (parents who don’t vaccinate?)

    Like

  31. Chris
    September 28, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Love it! It is descriptive. We would be PWV (parents who vaccinate).

    Like

  32. kathy
    September 28, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    How about parents who don’t vaccinate? I am an informed parent who does vaccinate! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Informed-Parents-of-Vaccinated-Children/236107336440146

    Like

  33. Lara Lohne
    September 28, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    Have you guys seen this news story? It was shared by Facebook page of Informed parents of Vaccinated children.

    Like

  34. Lara Lohne
  35. Quokka
    September 29, 2012 at 2:21 am

    Yes, Lilady, not only is she a naturopath she is also a student at a local woo university that offers chiro and homeopathy. She insists she is doing an evidence based course in complementary medicine. I almost exploded when she posted on Facebook that she was “helping oncologists” who we’re too busy to keep up with research. I really only post on Facebook now to provide genuine information to counter her dangerous advice not to vaccinate and cure cancer with megadoses of vitamins

    Like

  36. lilady
    September 29, 2012 at 3:27 am

    @ Quokka: Your *friend* is too far down the rabbit hole…she’s a hard core study of anti-vaccine pseudoscience. I really have no patience for these hard core cases, because of their tactics to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.

    I only hope that she doesn’t *learn* the hard way, by seeing a loved one infected with a serious vaccine-preventable disease.

    Like

  37. lilady
    September 29, 2012 at 4:21 am

    @ Kathy: Good for you. I love your Facebook page. 🙂

    Like

  38. October 1, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Governor Brown signed AB2109 into law, but puts in a signing statement about “religious exemptions”

    I’d like to see concrete evidence of any major religion coming out against vaccinations (because I know the Catholic Church has come out very strongly for vaccines, among others as well).

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/01/governor-jerry-brown-signs-california-bill-ab-2109-but-tries-to-water-it-down-in-a-sop-to-religion/

    Like

  39. globalpoliticalawakening
    October 1, 2012 at 7:37 am

    This is not alternative health conspiratorial conjecture. This has been officially recorded but barely reported. So here is a sampling of recorded disease breakouts among children who were vaccinated for that disease.

    Enforcing or increasing vaccine schedules does not really prevent disease; it only increases the chances of worse health or gravely critical adverse reactions, ranging from autistic spectrum disorders (ASD) to decreased immunity and increased poor health.

    Some Known Outbreaks of Vaccinated Kids
    http://globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/2012/10/vaccinated-children-develop-disease.html

    Like

  40. October 1, 2012 at 8:36 am

    @GP – nice recap of standard anti-vaccine myths there. Got any real citations?

    Like

  41. Gray Falcon
    October 1, 2012 at 8:37 am

    @globalpoliticalawakening: There are cases of people who drive defensively getting into traffic accidents. Does that mean it is just as safe to drive recklessly?

    Like

  42. Chris
    October 1, 2012 at 2:42 pm
  43. Chris
    October 1, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Rats! I forgot to close the HTML tag. And sorry about getting the initials wrong, GPA.

    Like

  44. October 1, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    @Chris – probably a drive-by troll, I’d be surprised if that person returned to respond.

    Like

  45. Veronica
    October 31, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Good for you Amber! I support you!

    Shame on the rest of you. You act like children. You will never change people or their views so stop trying. Lawrence, who taught you to be a bully? Show some respect for fellow parents. We should all be able to decide how to want to raise our own children.

    Get informed. Do your research. It’s about your children. Not you.

    There are Dr’s on both sides. And guess what? Dr’s don’t know everything.

    Like

  46. October 31, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    @Veronica, I don’t believe that anyone said doctors do know everything. Nobody even claims that science knows everything (to quote Dara O’Briain, “Otherwise it would stop.”) However, science tells us a great deal about medicine, what works and what doesn’t work and at this juncture science tells us vaccinations are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less risky then the diseases they prevent. Feel free to refuse vaccination for your children, but be prepared for the consequences of what may happen if your child gets sick with a disease that vaccination can prevent.

    Like

  47. October 31, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    @Veronica – I’m sorry if you feel like I am a bully. I only deal with evidence and facts, not idle speculation. If you click on the link in my name, it leads to a site which debunks the standard anti-vaccine myths.

    It is about the children – protecting them from diseases that used to maim and kill, and not listening to the scaremongers that try to connect vaccines to all the evils under the sun.

    Like

  48. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Veronica…..yes be careful. If you don’t vaccinate your kids, they may be too healthy to deal with.

    Like

  49. October 31, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    LOL Joe – both my kids are fully vaccinated (for their ages) and are healthy as can be, rarely get sick (no ear infections, etc) and more energy than I’ve ever seen…..

    So, any real evidence to bring to the table this time around or are you going to lob more sob stories over the fence as usual?

    Like

  50. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    That’s all anecdotal Law…you are very lucky.

    Like

  51. October 31, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    My story cancels out yours – any real evidence you want to bring up?

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  52. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    I don’t have a story to cancel out Law.
    Evidence of what exactly? That unvaccinated kids are healthier than vaccinated ones? Funny thing, they haven’t done any official studies on it….wonder why?

    Like

  53. October 31, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    @Joe – weren’t you the one with the original story? The one where you offered no proof or evidence of any kind?

    Also, plenty of population studies have been done Joe – anti-vaccine groups just don’t like them because they don’t show an increased risk for things like autism based on vaccine status…..

    Like

  54. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    What was my story Law? Again…evidence of what Law?

    Please provide the links to the studies you are talking about.

    Like

  55. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    One official study that has been pointed out to you before: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents.

    Then there are these:

    Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

    Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
    Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

    JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
    Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

    Like

  56. October 31, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    @Chris – thanks, I was also thinking about the Danish Study as well – don’t have the link handy.

    Like

  57. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    It was just a small selection, mostly showing that the only difference between kids who are vaccinated and those who are not vaccinated is that the latter have a higher chance of getting vaccine preventable diseases. There also several studies using the Vaccine Safety Datalink, and plus Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports on measles outbreaks that have been mostly in persons who were not vaccinated.

    I now expect Joe to bring up the unscientific internet poll by the German homeopath.

    Like

  58. October 31, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    @Chris – Joe is also bliss-fully unaware of the ethical complications of conducting a double-blind, placebo study of vaccinated vs. un-vaccinated children…..

    Like

  59. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    You two make a great comedy team!

    The German study is not a great study..

    -The control group is much, much larger than the test group, not good for any scientific study.

    – The study is based on the German vaccine schedule, not like here in the US…we receive many more vaccines.

    -Using vaccine “records” for studies is not very reliable, for there are sure to be errors. Also, what vaccine records are they using? Hospital records or those found in the pediatrician’s office? Could there be cross-overs or misinformation?

    -They don’t break it down enough. I’d like to know if a vaccinated kid didn’t get the measles but he had asthma vs. an unvaccinated kid got the measles but didn’t have asthma.

    Like

  60. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Chris…not familair with the German Homeopath poll….I’ll do a search and find it. Thanks.

    Like

  61. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Joe, why should we care about your analysis of any study? You have shown that you do not understand science, math or how to do a study.

    While every study has its limitations, it does go to show that there was at least one study where kids who were not vaccinated were compared to those who were vaccinated. And the results showed that the unvaccinated kids get more vaccine preventable diseases.

    Just like the outbreaks of measles in the USA are mostly those who are not vaccinated. Just like what happened in Japan: Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan. Which says:

    In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    Though if you want to pretend you are capable of an educated critique of every vaccine safety study, then perhaps you should work on this list. Have fun.

    Like

  62. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Chris…I don’t care if you care about my opinions. I read your study and thought it was very poorly designed. I don’t expect you to agree with me and I don’t claim to be an expert at analyzing studies. I am a regular “Joe” no pun intended, so if I see it that way I am sure other regualr folks do too. Your comments are way off the mark.

    Like

  63. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    So you admit you are not qualified to judge the quality of a scientific study.

    No, my comments are not off the mark. You said: “Evidence of what exactly? That unvaccinated kids are healthier than vaccinated ones? Funny thing, they haven’t done any official studies on it….wonder why?”

    And I showed you one particular one, plus that there were several others.

    Like

  64. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    Chris,

    It’s such a waste of time to debate if I am qualified to read a study.

    Tell me which of my points do you disagree with?

    Seriously Chris…you got nothing else to nit-pick about?

    Like

  65. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    I disagree with these statements: “That unvaccinated kids are healthier than vaccinated ones?”

    and “Funny thing, they haven’t done any official studies on it….wonder why?”

    There have been several types of studies that compared kids who have and have not been vaccinated. The ones who were not vaccinated were more likely to get sick from pertussis, measles and other vaccine preventable diseases. If you have real evidence to the contrary, you are welcome to present the title, journal and dates of those PubMed indexed studies.

    Like

  66. October 31, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Chris, it would appear that when anti-vaccinationists claim unvaccinated children are healthier then vaccinated children, they aren’t including the VPDs that unvaccinated children get as being unhealthy, almost as if they aren’t real and isn’t actually potentially deadly for a child to catch these. I know growing up in my anti-vaccine family, VPDs were a given, that whole ‘rite of passage’ part of childhood. It was the other things that have nothing to do with vaccines that they are talking about, autism, asthma, allergies, cold and/or flu viruses that aren’t part of the flu vaccine, ear and other system infections, etc. Which to me is just utter nonsense, because obviously if a child is vaccinated against a VPD, the chances that they will contract the disease are significantly diminished, therefore, not getting sick with a VPD would mean they are healthy, physically uncompromised (did I just make that word up?) by a pathogen, then their unvaccinated counter part who isn’t so fortunate. Personally, I remember missing a lot more school then other children due to illness, and also due to being unvaccinated during measles outbreaks.

    Like

  67. Chris
    October 31, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Ms. Lohne:

    It was the other things that have nothing to do with vaccines that they are talking about, autism, asthma, allergies, cold and/or flu viruses that aren’t part of the flu vaccine, ear and other system infections, etc.

    I know that they will often claim vaccines cause some non-specific chronic condition. Which is why I mentioned the Vaccine Safety Datalink project, where several on the list I linked to refer to some of those “chronic diseases” like asthma, diabetes, GBS, etc.

    And it is silly to think that getting measles makes a child healthier. That virus works to actively suppress the immune system, making it easier to get secondary infections.

    Like

  68. Joe
    October 31, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Chris….way to side-swipe my question. You said I wasn’t qualified to analyze the study, and when I ask you to tell me which of my points you disagree with, you say you disagree with other statements made. In other words, you agree with my points regarding the study.

    Like

  69. Tracy
    November 1, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Didn’t Governor Brown sign the bill in California requiring parents to get a doctor’s permission to refuse shots, but added a provision for parents to opt out of the whole thing if they preferred? He knew there were many thousands of parents completely unwilling to give their children vaccines. I think missing a couple of weeks of school if you have measles or whooping cough is unimportant when compared to the risk of a lifetime of autism, bowel disease, asthma or allergies.

    Like

  70. November 1, 2012 at 9:43 am

    @Tracy – if you actually read AB2109 you’d know it has nothing to do with “permission” as it does making sure the parents are making an “informed” decision. What is wrong with providing actual, real facts about vaccines and associated risks to parents?

    There was a caveat about “religious exemptions,” that Gov. Brown attempted to put in, but it isn’t part of the law & doesn’t have to be followed.

    As for the last part of your comment, blindness, deafness, secondary infections – including pneumonia & encephalitis are very real side-effects of measles and pertussis – and these occur at rates at least a magnitude or higher than any minor side-effects from vaccines.

    None of the “side-effects” of vaccines that you mention have been proven to actually occur – so you are making light of very real and life-altering / changing side-effects of disease and highlighting fictional side-effects of vaccines. Why not get some real evidence Tracy?

    Like

  71. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Tracy:

    I think missing a couple of weeks of school if you have measles or whooping cough is unimportant when compared to the risk of a lifetime of autism, bowel disease, asthma or allergies.

    Actually it is more like missing six weeks of school. Whenever there is an outbreak all the kids without vaccines are to stay home until there are no more cases of measles, chicken pox, pertussis, etc.

    Also, it does not reflect well when a parent thinks it is okay for kids to get these very serious diseases which can have some very serious side effects like deafness, blindness or just the suffering with high fever while being covered with hundreds of itchy open wounds. If you click on the second link I provided in comment #61 you will see that what were claimed were “side effects” were investigated, and as Lawrence said: they are fictional.

    Like

  72. November 1, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Tracy, Here are some real life risks of vaccine preventable diseases: pain, more then you can imagine, at least for mumps. I came out of that unscathed fortunately, but it is not an experience I wish to go through again. Meningitis causes death in a high number of individuals who are unfortunate enough to contract it. My younger sister was lucky, she narrowly escaped death, but she came out much weakened and permanently deaf in her right ear. Pertussis causes agonizing coughing spells that can last for long, long minutes at a time and can go on for months. Lack of sleep due to coughing is a real issue, vomiting everything you eat because the coughing fits are so forceful, cracked ribs also from the force of the cough, bruised lungs and passing out from lack of oxygen during a coughing fit. That doesn’t even touch on the disease pre-cough, where my fever was so high I was delirious and so weak I couldn’t stand on my own. Once the fever passed, I still had the cough that lasted for three months. This time I came out with permanent damage to my lungs giving me asthma like systems, but not technically asthma, and the lung capacity of an elderly woman and destroyed my dream of being an Olympic swimmer. Chicken pox has a high probability of secondary infection due to the number of open wounds on the body and the fact that they itch. Some areas are easier to clean then others, and if an infection sets in you best treat it fast or it can lead to long term complications, disability and death. These are only my own personal experiences with vaccine preventable diseases. I also have a child with autism and I can state, after having raised 5 neurotypical children prior to him, he was showing characteristics of autism from birth. He was the only one of my six children who was not vaccinated on schedule. The signs of autism in an infant that young are subtle, but if a person has had experience with neurotypical babies multiple times in the past, then a person is able to distinguish when behavior is abnormal. Your information is grossly mistaken and you would be wise to search and learn from reputable sources rather then anti-vaccination web sites.

    Like

  73. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Trayc,
    Lara speaks the truth about her son….he was born with Autism and doesn’t have the regressive kind brought on by environmental factors, and he wasn’t vaccinated on schedule, but did have his shots at 2 months, 4 months, and 6 months of age.

    Like

  74. Lara Lohne
    November 1, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Joe, I’ll thank you not to speak of things you do not know, because you are in fact not representing the facts correctly, and you know that you are not, as my son did regress, starting at 14 months of age. Even though he was showing differences in his behaviors from birth. And yes, he did receive routine vaccinations at 2 months, 4 months and 6 months of age, and aside from the behavioral difference present from birth, was well ahead of the curve developmentally. He then began his regression at 14 months of age, lost the language he had developed, became more introverted, spent much time spinning objects and lining things up and began walking on his toes. That was also when the melt downs started to become more frequent. Most experts agree, even in those children who do regress, there are subtle signs that autism is there from birth. Most new parents would not recognize them. Since I was not a new parent, I did notice them, I just didn’t know what they were until we put all the little pieces together and they showed us the most likely cause was autism.

    Like

  75. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Lara, you can’t have it both ways….your son can’t be born with Autism, but also have the regressive kind. It’s one or the other…..your son may have had regression at 14 months, but if he was born with it, then it wasn’t the regressive kind.

    Like

  76. November 1, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    @Joe – love to see your citations on the “two” kinds of autism……because autism isn’t just one thing (or another) – it is an entire spectrum.

    Neurologically, there is a whole lot going on in the autistic brain – very subtle behaviors can be magnified over time, leading to the appearance of regression later on.

    Same old sob story, huh, Joe?

    Like

  77. Lara Lohne
    November 1, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Thank you, Lawrence. It can be aggravating to keep explaining the same thing to the same people over and over again. I had even presented Joe with information that shows a child can exhibit subtle characteristics of autism and still have regression. It all depends on how much cell over growth there is in the first coupe of years of life, versus the amount of ‘pruning’ of neuropathways when a child reaches a certain developmental stage. He either didn’t read that information, or he has chosen to ignore it, which doesn’t say much for his desire to know the truth as much as it does for his desire to be right, even when science shows he is not.

    Like

  78. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    I am not sobbing, “The only way to get through life is to laugh your way through it. You either have to laugh or cry. I prefer to laugh. Crying gives me a headache.”

    Like

  79. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Lara,
    “Think before you speak. Read before you think” “Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.”

    Like

  80. Lara Lohne
    November 1, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Joe, you should heed your own advice. Until you do, you have nothing of import to say to me. You don’t speak for me either, so I would appreciate that you don’t try to tell my experiences to other people, because you will get them wrong, as noted above.

    Like

  81. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Gotcha Dr. Lohne

    Like

  82. novalox
    November 1, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    @joe

    Have anything else besides grade-school insults to posters?

    Like

  83. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Joe, since my oldest regressed after having seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease I find your remarks to be as hilarious as any other grade-school bully.

    Now, where are the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show children who are not immunized are healthier than vaccinated kids. I have given you at least a dozen papers (the list I provided, plus the link to the VSD papers) that is not true. So provide evidence or go away.

    Like

  84. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Novalox….who did I insult?

    Like

  85. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Thank you as well Dr. Chris….the expert on all that is Autism.

    Like

  86. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    You are using sarcastic insults by prefacing our names with “Dr.” and not answering the questions. You are acting just like the school yard bully. I have never claimed to be an expert on autism, and I did not even mention it. I do, however, know first hand the dangers from getting actual diseases and the long term consequences.

    You made a claim that kids who are not vaccinated are healthier than those who are immunized. Now put up or shut up: list the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your claims. Show us exactly how be vulnerable to measles, mumps, diphtheria, polio, etc is a healthier choice.

    Like

  87. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    I made no such claim….better check your facts Chris.

    I pointed out why your German study was weak. Then you stated you don’t care about my analysis because I am not qualified to judge a scientific study, but you are, and you were going to tell me where I was off. Still waiting Chris.

    BTW…you are the bully that puts everybody into defense mode….if you can’t take the heat, then don’t dish it out.

    Like

  88. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Joe: “That unvaccinated kids are healthier than vaccinated ones?”

    Prove it.

    Like

  89. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    Chris, I find your remarks hilarious as I made no such claim. You really are the bully now.

    Like

  90. Gray Falcon
    November 1, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    Joe, that was a direct quote. Did it ever occur to you we can simply scroll up and read what you say?

    Like

  91. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    That is a direct quote from you. Was it just a sarcastic comment? Because it looked like a claim.

    You also claimed there were no studies comparing children who were and who were not vaccinated, and I listed several. Including a matched case study. I am sorry that you do not understand that even though your uneducated critique does not dismiss the fact that there exist over a dozen studies that compared the two groups.

    Like

  92. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    .Do you mean this comment that I made to Lawrence?

    “I don’t have a story to cancel out Law.
    Evidence of what exactly? That unvaccinated kids are healthier than vaccinated ones? Funny thing, they haven’t done any official studies on it….wonder why?”

    Doesn’t look like a statement to me….looks like a question to Law. Isn’t this what you are always jumping on people about…..assumptions….seriously bad.

    Like

  93. novalox
    November 1, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    I guess that since joe has revealed himself to be nothing more than a petulant child bully since he has been repeatedly resorted to infantile insults instead of actual evidence, we can all assume that joe has nothing more to add to the conversation.

    joe, please keep posting. Show to the world your ignorance, it is certainly most entertaining to see you look like a fool.

    Like

  94. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Novalox…..you guys are the bullies here, and you have demonstrated this time and time again…just as your last comment above demonstrates.

    Like

  95. November 1, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    @Joe, I don’t believe anyone has insulted you or resorted to attacking your character as a argument methodology here. There have been numerous times where you have done to us. Apparently you find everything we provide to you as evidence worthy of nothing more then your contempt and this entire world wide health situation apparently is a joke to you also. You have made it very clear your position and willingness to accept scientific data that supports the refutation of the claims you have and are making. That says much more about your character then you are probably aware of. I have tried to be fair and polite to you, but you clearly are incapable of showing that mutual respect for the rest of us. Nobody has bullied you, but we have stood up to you, and just like when a bully is stood up to, they will end up laughing at those standing up to them to try and save face a bit. Typically that’s because a bully knows they cannot take on everyone that is standing up to them. That would seem to be the case here, from what I’ve witnessed of the conversation.

    Like

  96. Joe
    November 1, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Lara…where are my insults towards you exactly? I can point out many aimed at me, so get off your high horse and take responsibility for yourself….please.

    Like

  97. Lara Lohne
    November 1, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Joe, you seem to be operating under the assumption that none of us here can recognize sarcasm. My son has autism, but I do not and I am quite proficient in the use of it myself. Do you honestly mean to tell me the obvious misrepresentation of ‘my story’ and the statement that it’s true and what not (knowing how you are and the tactics you’ve used in the past) which came across as very sarcastic, and calling my Dr. were not meant as insults, meant to make me look like a joke? These are not the only times, just the times today. If you can point out insults I have aimed at you, please do so. After all, I could be mistaken, it’s what I currently believe and if you can provide me with evidence that my belief is in fact not valid, then I will change it and I will apologize to you. It’s easy enough to do and it is the difference between having maturity and integrity or not.

    Like

  98. novalox
    November 1, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Please keep posting, joe, your foolishness and utter ignorance of your half-hearted attempts at bullying to Lara are in full view here.

    Like

  99. Casey
    November 1, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    I think Joe is right. Unvaccinated children have much lower rates of asthma and allergies, both of which were close to nonexistent before vaccines. Rates doubled between 1960 and 1980, then doubled again between 1980 and 2000. Sort of like with autism. There were 500 autistic kids in the St. Louis school district in 2000, now there are 2500. Being sick for a week or two is one thing, being sick all the time is something quite different. And I think Joe is very polite and good-humored, I read back in older comments as well as these, and you have hurled many insults at him., while he tries hard to be polite and not hurt anyone’s feelings.

    Like

  100. Chris
    November 1, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Casey:

    Unvaccinated children have much lower rates of asthma and allergies, both of which were close to nonexistent before vaccines.

    Citation needed. You might want to check the papers in the second link of comment #61.

    Like

  101. November 1, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    I smell socks…

    Like

  102. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 1:51 am

    Casey:

    Being sick for a week or two is one thing, being sick all the time is something quite different.

    How about being permanently disabled or dead? Measles has a nasty habit of causing encephalitis in about one in a thousand cases where the result is sometimes deafness, blindness, paralysis, or a death… sometimes from SSPE. Mumps used to be the most common cause of post-lingual deafness. Pertussis has the nick-name of the 100-day cough, which is lots longer than two weeks.

    So, just post the citations that the MMR and DTaP are more dangerous than the diseases they are designed for. That means the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper not written by someone whose medical license has come under question.

    Like

  103. November 2, 2012 at 8:59 am

    @Chris – I believe it was cia parker that stated on multiple occasions that the various side-effects from vaccine-preventable diseases were fine & “acceptable losses.” Even though, besides quarantines, there has been no way to prevent the spread of diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, polio, etc. until the advent of vaccines – sure, we were able to reduce mortality rates (modern medicine keeping people alive, when various side-effects like pneumonia would have killed before), but we could do nothing to prevent transmission and the large numbers of children (and adults) who suffered from the very real, and very dangerous (and life-altering, in many cases) side-effects of the diseases.

    Serious vaccine reactions do occur, in 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 10,000,000 (or less) cases – for VPD’s, serious reactions can take place in as many as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 cases….in Europe, last year during the major measles outbreaks, over 25,000 cases were reported, and fully 1/4 of those required hospitalizations. That’s a pretty big number – which could have easily been prevented, with vaccines.

    Like

  104. November 2, 2012 at 9:06 am

    @Chris – I would also ask Casey for her sources for the increase in allergies & asthma.

    Anti-Vax people ignore the hundreds of institutions that used to exist across the country to deal with the “mentally-disabled” which probably included a large number of people who we would consider “autistic” today. They also ignore the specialized institutions that dealt with the blind and deaf – which resulted from epidemics of measles and mumps back in the day.

    They also have no answer for the tens of thousands of miscarriages, stillbirths, and congenital birth defects that resulted from rubella infections in pregnant women…..

    Like

  105. November 2, 2012 at 9:14 am

    @Chris – to clarify, sources that show vaccines are responsible, since I’ve also seen research that part of the increase can be blamed on the overuse of disinfectants and sanitizers…..better that kids get dirty than forcing them to suffer through potentially debilitating diseases….

    Also, what is the excuse for not getting vaccines for school-aged children? Can’t be the autism thing – what good reason would a person have for putting their kid in school with hundreds of other children & not get them vaccinated?

    Like

  106. Casey
    November 2, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Socks, Venna? What do you mean?

    Like

  107. November 2, 2012 at 11:43 am

    @Casey – that’s what you choose to address? Really?

    Like

  108. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    Casey, please give us the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your statement: “Unvaccinated children have much lower rates of asthma and allergies, both of which were close to nonexistent before vaccines.”

    Like

  109. November 2, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    @Chris – don’t you know that we are being mean & bullies for actually asking for evidence?

    Like

  110. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    I am actually curious when Casey thinks asthma appeared? Did it start with the introduction of the smallpox vaccine? Because I found this 1840s paper on asthma.

    Like

  111. November 2, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Casey :
    Socks, Venna? What do you mean?

    Where in my statement are you getting Venna from? The very fact that you are aware of that nym provides additional evidence to me that you are a sock puppet.

    But aside from that, you’ve made some rather remarkable and extraordinary claims regarding vaccinations. You should now provide the scientific data requested to back up your claims, because we generally don’t take things at face value, without the evidence to back it up.

    Like

  112. Joe
    November 2, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    You are so naïve Law. Just like everybody else here, you know it all. Maybe you should write a book or something?

    Like

  113. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Joe and Casey,
    Don’t let these guys get you down. They are known for harassing people on a Science Blog I follow. I would suggest moving on as this bunch is a lost cause.

    Like

  114. Dahlia
    November 2, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    Lawrence,
    I only wasted one line on it.
    Chris,
    Since the smallpox vaccine was introduced in the early nineteenth century, being carried to Spanish colonies in the Philippines and China in 1803 by the Balmis Expedition, asthma existing in the 1840s doesn’t mean anything as to whether it was caused by vaccination. Asthma, hay fever, and MS (et al) all first appeared in the early nineteenth century, after the smallpox vaccine was introduced.
    The study “Delay in DPT vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood asthma,” J Allergy Clin Immunol, 2008 Mar;121(3):626-31. Epub 2008 Jan 18. by McDonaold KL, Huq SI, Lix LM, Becker AB, Kozyrskyj AL, found that among 11,531 children who got at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma at the age of seven was reduced by more than half among those whose first dose was delayed by more than three months. Since the pertussis vaccine offers no protection to newborns, there’s no reason not to start the series later, and reduce the risk of asthma. Not getting it at all reduces the risk still more. Citation to follow.
    CDC figures show that in 1979, about 2 million children under 14 had asthma (decades after routine DPT began): now it is well over 9 million.

    Like

  115. Lara Lohne
    November 2, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    I submit that Dahlia is Casey is Cia Parker. The arguments used are similar.

    @Mick, why do you take such offense as false claims being corrected? Why do you believe this to be harassment? Being a regular on a science blog, dealing with their particular area of advocacy where they refute false and unscientific claims isn’t harassment. That is no different from a teacher correcting a spelling mistake, except that in this case, lives may be at stake if false information is allowed to spread.

    Like

  116. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Mick :
    Joe and Casey,
    Don’t let these guys get you down. They are known for harassing people on a Science Blog I follow. I would suggest moving on as this bunch is a lost cause.

    Did it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?

    Like

  117. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Gray….yes, you ask this question often. I don’t claim to know it all and I am open and change my beliefs as I learn more. I don’t think anything is a definite like others do here.

    Like

  118. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    Mick :
    Gray….yes, you ask this question often. I don’t claim to know it all and I am open and change my beliefs as I learn more. I don’t think anything is a definite like others do here.

    Please don’t lie to me.

    Like

  119. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    What’s that Gray?

    Like

  120. Carissa
    November 2, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    GF,
    I like and respect you, and I wanted you to know that, since I’m not sure if I’ll be able to tell you again. I admire your defending me and Th1Th2 when we were being treated unfairly. Thank you. But I hope you’ll believe me when I say that, since my daughter’s vaccine injury and autism, I”ve read probably fifty books, several times each, and dozens of studies which have convinced me that vaccines are more dangerous than they are helpful, damaging or taking away more lives than they save. I have a law degree and a Ph.D. (Spanish lit), I’m not stupid. and I hope that you will believe that I am sincere in my opposition to vaccines. I say that because you have convinced me of your fundamental decency. Ave atque vale.

    Like

  121. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Dahlia:

    Asthma, hay fever, and MS (et al) all first appeared in the early nineteenth century, after the smallpox vaccine was introduced.

    Citation needed.

    I found this 1920s paper that refers to 18th century papers on allergies and asthma.

    And as far as the one 2008 paper; more recent studies show something else:

    Pediatrics. 2009 Mar;123(3):944-50.
    Routine vaccination against pertussis and the risk of childhood asthma: a population-based cohort study.

    Vaccine. 2011 Oct 26;29(46):8275-8. Epub 2011 Sep 9.
    Pertussis in infancy and the association with respiratory and cognitive disorders at toddler age.

    J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2012 Apr;129(4):957-63. Epub 2011 Dec 28.
    Increased risk of pertussis in patients with asthma.

    Like

  122. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Oops, it is a 1930 paper. It just references lots of 1920s papers, along with several from the 19th century, a few from the 18th century and one from the 17th century. Basically many from the days when the chance of a child having a fifth birthday was under 50%.

    So perhaps the increase in allergies/asthma has to do with have more living children. So decide which is better: a dealing with a child who has allergies and perhaps asthma, or visiting the child’s grave. Since I have several allergies, and have had a couple of asthma attacks (from mold when a swamp cooler was turned on), I kind of like living versus dying.

    Like

  123. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Mick :
    What’s that Gray?

    I said, don’t lie to me. We gave you evidence, you dismissed it out of hand. Don’t say you have an open mind when you don’t.

    GF,
    I like and respect you, and I wanted you to know that, since I’m not sure if I’ll be able to tell you again.

    If you respect me, trust what I say.

    I admire your defending me and Th1Th2 when we were being treated unfairly. Thank you.

    When?

    But I hope you’ll believe me when I say that, since my daughter’s vaccine injury and autism, I”ve read probably fifty books, several times each, and dozens of studies which have convinced me that vaccines are more dangerous than they are helpful, damaging or taking away more lives than they save.

    What books? What articles? Not everyone who has written a book is right, you know.

    I have a law degree and a Ph.D. (Spanish lit), I’m not stupid.

    Well-educated people once believed bloodletting was medicine.

    and I hope that you will believe that I am sincere in my opposition to vaccines. I say that because you have convinced me of your fundamental decency. Ave atque vale.

    I don’t give a flip about how sincere you say you are, if you refuse to consider the evidence, you are threaten others’ lives with your words. I have a duty to oppose you. Do you understand?

    Like

  124. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Here’s “Dahlia’s” citation from PubMed (although, I doubt that she found that old citation by a PubMed “search”) That crappy longitudinal study of children born in Manitoba in 1995, is cited on whale.to, Age of Autism and a host of other anti-vaccine, anti-science websites:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207561

    Here’s a more recent study published in “Pediatrics, March, 2009, that I located on PubMed:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19255024

    Pediatrics. 2009 Mar;123(3):944-50.
    Routine vaccination against pertussis and the risk of childhood asthma: a population-based cohort study.
    Spycher BD, Silverman M, Egger M, Zwahlen M, Kuehni CE.
    Source

    Institute of Social and Preventive Medicine, Finkenhubelweg 11, CH-3012 Bern, Switzerland.
    Erratum in

    Pediatrics. 2009 May;123(5):1437.

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    In industrialized countries vaccination coverage remains suboptimal, partly because of perception of an increased risk of asthma. Epidemiologic studies of the association between childhood vaccinations and asthma have provided conflicting results, possibly for methodologic reasons such as unreliable vaccination data, biased reporting, and reverse causation. A recent review stressed the need for additional, adequately controlled large-scale studies.
    OBJECTIVE:

    Our goal was to determine if routine childhood vaccination against pertussis was associated with subsequent development of childhood wheezing disorders and asthma in a large population-based cohort study.
    METHODS:

    In 6811 children from the general population born between 1993 and 1997 in Leicestershire, United Kingdom, respiratory symptom data from repeated questionnaire surveys up to 2003 were linked to independently collected vaccination data from the National Health Service database. We compared incident wheeze and asthma between children of different vaccination status (complete, partial, and no vaccination against pertussis) by computing hazard ratios. Analyses were based on 6048 children, 23 201 person-years of follow-up, and 2426 cases of new-onset wheeze.
    RESULTS:

    There was no evidence for an increased risk of wheeze or asthma in children vaccinated against pertussis compared with nonvaccinated children. Adjusted hazard ratios comparing fully and partially vaccinated with nonvaccinated children were close to one for both incident wheeze and asthma.
    CONCLUSION:

    This study provides no evidence of an association between vaccination against pertussis in infancy and an increased risk of later wheeze or asthma and does not support claims that vaccination against pertussis might significantly increase the risk of childhood asthma.

    @ Lara Lohne…”Dahlia” could be CIA Parker…or any of the commenters here, who use sockies.

    Like

  125. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Gray…what are those quotes? They are not mine.

    I have evidence, we all have evidence….please do oppose me, because I surely oppose a small mind like yours.

    Like

  126. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Mick, are you literate? Those were responses to #120 by Carissa. If you can’t even be bothered to look through a comment thread, why should I trust your ability to find evidence?

    Like

  127. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Excuse me Gray….I did’t see that comment and now since I have refreshed I see it. And btw….you talk about trust. Why should I trust somebody that treats people the way you do. It really shows your true nature and character, and I don’t listen to people like you.

    Like

  128. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    Mick, up thread…

    “Joe and Casey,
    Don’t let these guys get you down. They are known for harassing people on a Science Blog I
    follow. I would suggest moving on as this bunch is a lost cause.”

    We’re waiting for you to take your own advice, Mick.

    Like

  129. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Do you want me to stop responding to questions directed at me by your cronies lil?

    Like

  130. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    @mick

    Yawn, more childish insults?

    If you are really serious, then please post some actual evidence instead of your usual taunts.

    Like

  131. November 2, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    @mick – I see lots of evidence of vaccine efficacy & lack of relation to things like asthma (not to mention autism & the like) – care to share any evidence of your own?

    Hmmm…

    Like

  132. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Novalox….pathetic. Your cronies are the ones throwing insults, yawn, yawn.

    Like

  133. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    Todd, I mean Law…..lil doesn’t want you feeding the trolls any longer.

    Like

  134. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    @mick

    Try harder with the insults,little one, that was pretty pathetic.

    Of course, your idiocy is out there for the world to see, that brings a little laugh to me.

    Like

  135. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Yawn, more childish insults, novalox?

    That’s the best you can do? That brings a big laugh to me, novalox.

    Like

  136. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Here’s another of “Dahlia’s” quotations…

    “Asthma, hay fever, and MS (et al) all first appeared in the early nineteenth century, after the smallpox vaccine was introduced.”

    We have eliminated her “asthma” belief. What about hay fever? Which vaccines contain molds, animal danders, pollens, dust and grasses?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001816/

    Multiple sclerosis was first identified upon autopsy conducted by Charcot, who noted the plaques in brain tissue; later disturbances in the myelin sheath were discovered for the specific etiology of M.S.

    http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/musculoskeletal/multiple-sclerosis4.htm

    Like

  137. Lawrence
    November 2, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    @mick- any evidence yet?

    Like

  138. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    Where oh where is mick’s evidence? BTW mick, which science blog do you troll and not post on?

    Like

  139. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Law, You don’t even know what evidence you are asking for. Seriously, quit feeding the troll.

    Like

  140. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    @mick

    More childish insults? How utterly typical. Where is your evidence?

    I think at this point, mick’s comments are definite evidence that he does not want an honest conversation, and that he will resort to childish insults and temper tantrums in order to get his way.

    And the world will see how he cannot defend his position. So keep posting mick. Show everyone how much you hate children and love to see them suffer from vaccine-preventable diseases.

    See how much your half-witted attempts at ad hominem and attacks get you in terms of respect among those with actual scientific knowledge and educations.

    Like

  141. Lawrence
    November 2, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    @mick – my irony meter just exploded.

    Like

  142. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    lil, There’s your good friend Orac, Left Brain Right Brain, etc.

    Like

  143. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Yawn, more childish insults, novalox?

    That’s the best you can do? That brings a big laugh to me, novalox.

    Again, you don’t have any idea of what evidence you are asking for. Are you slow, novalox?

    Like

  144. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Mick :
    Excuse me Gray….I did’t see that comment and now since I have refreshed I see it. And btw….you talk about trust. Why should I trust somebody that treats people the way you do. It really shows your true nature and character, and I don’t listen to people like you.

    I have no respect for those who make no effort whatsoever to find the truth.

    Like

  145. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Anybody care to let the “troll” know what we are debating and why you keep asking for evidence? Anybody? Y’all so caught up in insulting me and you don’t even know why.
    How utterly typical.

    Like

  146. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Gray….I don’t respect you either, so the feeling is mutual.

    Like

  147. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Mick :
    Yawn, more childish insults, novalox?
    That’s the best you can do? That brings a big laugh to me, novalox.
    Again, you don’t have any idea of what evidence you are asking for. Are you slow, novalox?

    I think from this we can see the true side of mick. Not a shred of evidence, unwilling to be an honest participant in an adult discussion, and childlike insults.

    Like

  148. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    I copied and pasted those insults directly from you novalox. Hope you like them.

    I don’t see any “honest” or “adult” discussions here, you must be thinking of somewhere else.

    You keep insisting on eveidence and you still don’t know what evidence you are asking for….it’s taking a long time for you to compute this, novalox.

    Like

  149. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    Mick, we gave very explicit requests for evidence: “So, just post the citations that the MMR and DTaP are more dangerous than the diseases they are designed for.” and “Please, again, try to tell us what verifiable information that shows the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.” Again, don’t lie to us.

    Like

  150. November 2, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    @GF et. al. – Mick is either attempting to tone troll or just hasn’t a real clue. Because god-forbid we should demand that those that make outrageous or extraordinary claims provide actual evidence to back up their assertions…..people like our old sock-puppet troll cia parker.

    Like

  151. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Gray…. I have made no such comments regarding MMR and DTap.

    My very first comment was to Joe and Casey….and then the insults began.

    I think you need to take better care of yourself and get some sleep or something.

    Like

  152. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Mick, if you’re going to side with them, you had better be willing to assist them.

    Like

  153. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @mick

    They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. So thank you for admitting that you have no argument.

    Anyways, where is your evidence? We are still waiting.

    Like

  154. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Law….if you scroll up you will see that I answer direct questions with answers and insults with insults. Takes two to tango or shall I say a whole mess of ya. If you showed any respect for me, I would do the same for you. But that doesn’t happen here at SOP.

    Like

  155. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    I smell dirty sockies here.

    Meanwhile, back on topic…

    http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/nov/01/woodland-primary-school-student-measles/

    “Woodland School District officials sent a letter home to parents Thursday warning of a measles case.

    Cowlitz County health officials confirmed a case of measles in a student at Woodland Primary School. School and health officials reviewed immunization history for every student at the school and found 25 students must be excluded from school because they are not up to date on their measles vaccinations….”

    That’s what happens when you have parents in Washington State, who take *advantage* of vaccine exemptions.

    Like

  156. November 2, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    I find it most interesting that if you speak to any adult today who is on the autism spectrum, none of them believe autism is a disease, nor that they need to be cured. They don’t blame vaccines for being the way they are, and they don’t put much stock in unfounded, unproven biomedical interventions that some parents of ASD children ascribe to.

    I have great admiration for those adults, and will actually put much more faith and trust in their words regarding autism, science and vaccines then in those parents intent on ‘curing’ their children. An autistic mind has the ability to sift through data much more efficiently then an NT mind. They can find the flaws, the inconsistencies and the out right lies being spread as truth much more readily then someone who is fettered with emotional biases and passionate beliefs.

    I have 6 children, three of them are adults now, my youngest will turn 6 in March and he has autistic disorder. There are still ‘ghosts’ (if you will) from my past, growing up anti-vaccine that haunt me. I get little twinges every now and then that I harmed my children by vaccinating them, but I then remind myself of everything I learned about vaccines and the diseases they protect against which is why I made the choice to vaccinate to begin with, and I am reassured I have done and am doing what is the best choice for the long term health of my children. I still feel those feelings of panic and fear with regard to vaccines that I used to feel when reading some of the new stories that come out regarding vaccines and the new ‘dangers’ they present, that little fluttering in my stomach starts up again. I try really hard not to allow my emotions and past history to overwhelm me and instead read the comments provided by other people, particularly those who I know are on the spectrum, because they are far easier to believe then people who rely solely on their passion and faith to make their choices.

    Speaking of my son, he wants to play his games and is attempting to evict me from the chair now so he can so I need to go. Take care everyone, have a great weekend.

    Like

  157. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Mick, if you don’t believe the anti-vaccine groups, here’s a direct question for you: If someone, by their direct words and actions, threatens the lives of others, do you have a moral obligation to stop them?

    Like

  158. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    Gray…. the rest of your cronies don’t want you to ask me this as they are getting back on topic.

    Like

  159. novalox
    November 2, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    @lilady

    Knowing some of the anti-vaxxers, they will claim discrimination and conspiracy since their children cannot go to school when it was their own fault for not getting their children vaccinated in the first place.

    Like

  160. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Mick :
    Gray…. the rest of your cronies don’t want you to ask me this as they are getting back on topic.

    It is on topic. If we are correct, then those demanding exemption from vaccination are putting other people’s lives at risk.

    Like

  161. Lawrence
    November 2, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    If parents refuse to vaccinate, then public health official have no choice but to fall back on the only other tools available during an outbreak…..isolation and quarantine.

    Like

  162. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Actually, on another thread I asked Mick for the citations that show GBS occurs more often with the influenza vaccine than with the other actual viruses that are known to cause GBS. He never really answered, at least not in any acceptable form other than a Cochrane report that said there were one GBS report per million doses, but did not explain how it related to the background rate. Then when I posted a forum comment that listed eleven cites showing very little connection to GBS and influenza vaccine I was accused of cherry picking by “Truth Seeker” (well, he never clicks on links).

    In summary: he posted one cite that did not answer the question on relative risk, I posted a link to eleven citations, and I am the one accused of cherry picking. Mick is not being honest, and just like “Truth Seeker” should be ignored.

    Now, Casey and others, please: give us the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your statement: “Unvaccinated children have much lower rates of asthma and allergies, both of which were close to nonexistent before vaccines.”

    Dahlia needs to support her statement: “Asthma, hay fever, and MS (et al) all first appeared in the early nineteenth century, after the smallpox vaccine was introduced.”

    Joe as still not supported this claim (again a direct quote): “If you don’t vaccinate your kids, they may be too healthy to deal with.”

    Carissa, as a lawyer with a PhD you should understand that argument by blatant assertion will not get you very far, you actually need to provide verifiable evidence: “which have convinced me that vaccines are more dangerous than they are helpful, damaging or taking away more lives than they save.” Just make sure it is verifiable peer reviewed studies by qualified researchers.

    Like

  163. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Chris, let me get this straight…..you demand I answer a question from you and when I don’t, I am dishonest? My irony meter just exploded.

    Like

  164. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Come on Gray…..this is not on topic….

    “Mick, if you don’t believe the anti-vaccine groups, here’s a direct question for you: If someone, by their direct words and actions, threatens the lives of others, do you have a moral obligation to stop them?”

    and this has nothing to do with me…

    “It is on topic. If we are correct, then those demanding exemption from vaccination are putting other people’s lives at risk.”

    Just keep making up stuff to suit your needs.

    Like

  165. November 2, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    @Mick – so when exactly have you been “on-topic” in this thread?

    Like

  166. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    Mick :
    Come on Gray…..this is not on topic….
    “Mick, if you don’t believe the anti-vaccine groups, here’s a direct question for you: If someone, by their direct words and actions, threatens the lives of others, do you have a moral obligation to stop them?”

    Which is why I asked the second part.

    and this has nothing to do with me…
    “It is on topic. If we are correct, then those demanding exemption from vaccination are putting other people’s lives at risk.”
    Just keep making up stuff to suit your needs.

    I made up nothing. Measles can kill. This is an established fact.

    Like

  167. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Mick:

    you demand I answer a question from you and when I don’t, I am dishonest?

    No, it is when you have declared to have actually answered a question in a thread when you have not. I asked you a direct question, and you never answered it. As I explained the one citation you gave did not actually answer the question I asked. So you are not doing what you claimed when you said “Law….if you scroll up you will see that I answer direct questions with answers and insults with insults.” All you do is evade the question, and answer a different one.

    Like

  168. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    My irony meter just exploded again Chris.

    I critiqued your German study, and you said I was not qualified to do so. I asked you “directly”, a few times, which of my points you disagreed with, and you have yet to answer.

    Are you going to go through other past threads and look for more examples now, Chris?

    Like

  169. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Wait? I thought it was Joe who did the critique! Looks up thread… ah, I see, it was Joe.

    And the point of posting that study was to show there had been a vax/unvax study. Something Joe did not seem to understand. And you, Mick, never answered if those side-effects occurred more often from the vaccine that actual viral infections.

    So, you are a sock puppet. That is very dishonest.

    Like

  170. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    Avoiding the question again huh Chris….doesn’t matter who asked them.

    Like

  171. Gray Falcon
    November 2, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Mick, anyone here can tell Chris answered your question. How do you think you can get away with lying when anybody can see the truth?

    Like

  172. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    And, again, it does not matter if Joe/Mick liked the German study, nor if he (or she) like the others I posted: it still showed there were still several studies comparing children who were vaccinated and those that were not. Many of the results being that kids who are not vaccinated are only different by getting sick more often with vaccine preventable diseases.

    And Mick/Joe, if you claimed to answer direct questions, you failed to support your first two statements on this thread, starting with: “If you don’t vaccinate your kids, they may be too healthy to deal with.”

    Obviously, this particular morphing troll is a delusional liar.

    Like

  173. Mick
    November 2, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    More insults and still you fail to deliver the goods. Just make up stuff as you go along Chris….you have full support of your fellow cronies.

    Like

  174. lilady
    November 2, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    @ Chris, Gray Falcon, Lawrence, etal…Isn’t it amazing how the morphing delusional troll is able to identify us by our ‘nyms, when we post on other science blogs?

    Poor delusional morphing troll has to resort to sock puppets…tsk…tsk.

    Like

  175. Chris
    November 2, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    No, it is not an insult to truthfully describe your behavior. You are changing your name (sock puppet), and deliberately not engaging in an honest discussion. You refuse to answer direct question, but claim you answered them when you just said something only tangentially to the original question.

    If you lurk on Scienceblogs, I suspect you might be Jen who went on probation for using sock puppets, even to the point of conversing with herself. You are probably also Veronica, Carissa and others on this thread, and perhaps even “Truth Seeker.”

    The only honest response you can give now is to post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed paper that asthma is definitely proven to be caused by vaccines. They must be more recent than the papers I listed that showed that vaccine do not cause asthma, and are recommended for children with asthma.

    Otherwise, I hope you will be banned from this site for making inflammatory statements not supported by evidence and the use of sock puppets.

    Like

  176. November 3, 2012 at 12:11 am

    My goodness you have an infestation of cockroaches, sock puppets, trolls, etc…please let me know if you need my services.

    Like

  177. November 3, 2012 at 7:55 am

    @Chris, et. al. – I thought Joe had morphed into Mick. Usually sock-puppets don’t confirm their identities so quickly (or easily).

    Like

  178. Joe
    November 3, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Joe and Mick are not the same person, probably as much as Lawrence and Chris are. I thought I was the conspiracy freak, but I think you win.

    Like

  179. November 3, 2012 at 10:43 am

    @Joe – then why does Mick say he critiqued the German Study when it was actually Joe?

    How many people are you?

    Like

  180. Chloe
    November 3, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Chris,

    In 1994, the Journal of the American Medical Assn purblished data showing that children diagnosed with asthma were five times more likely than not to have received the pertussis vaccine. Odent, M. “Pertussis vaccination and asthma: is there a link?” August 24/31, 1994, 592-3.

    In 1997, Epidemiology published a study comparing children who had been vaccinated for pertussis to children who did not receive the pertussis vaccine. More than 20% of the pertussis-vacciianted children developed asthma within 5 to 10 years, whereas none of the children in the control group acquired the ailment. Kemp, T. ” Is infant immunization a risk factor for asthma or allergy?” 1997;8:678-80.

    In 1998, a study published in Thorax showed a 1.4-fold increased risk of asthma associated with pertussis vaccination. Farooqi, IS, “Early childhood infection and atopic disorder,” 1998;53:927-32.

    In 2000, a new study showed that children who received DPT or tetanus vaccines were significantly more likely to develop a history of asthma or other allergy-related respiratory symptoms than htose who remained unvaccinated. Hurwitz, EL. “Effects of DPT vaccination or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the US.”J of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics 2000;23:1-10.

    In 2008, Pediatric Allergy and Immunology published a study showing that pertussis-vaccinated babies were more than twice as likely to develop atopic disorders-asthma, hay fever, and food allergies – by 8-12 years of age, when compared to unvaccinated children. Bernsen, R, “Reported pertussis infection and risk of atopy in 8 to 12 year old vaccinated and non-vaccinated children,” Pediatric Allergy and Immun 19(1):46-52.

    Citations from Dr. Mayer Eisenstein

    Parents should be aware of these studies and that many scientists believe it has been proven that vaccines can cause asthma (etc.). One in nine American children now has asthma, which is always frightening and sometimes fatal. The acellular pertussis vaccine is often ineffective, as seen in this year’s pertussis epidemic. About fifteen people have died in it, most or all of them newborns. Since the vaccine is often ineffective, and always dangerous, quarantine of newborns would seem the wiser course.

    It is true that many families lost many babies and small children to now vaccine-preventable diseases in the past. Malnourished people in the Third World still lose a lot of children to disease. That doesn’t mean that, if diseases like pertussis and measles came back here because even more parents stopped vaccinating, that the death rates would be as high as they were in the past, or as they are now in the developing world. The diseases themselves have become milder, and critical care in hospitals of the most severe cases has improved immeasurably.

    Chris, your saying that it is better to have a child with asthma and/or allergies (etc.) is better than to have a child who died of pertussis doesn’t take into account all these facts. Even most newborns survive pertussis, though, siince it can kill as many as one in two hundred newborns who gets it, is a disease to be avoided in this age group, if possible. Before saying that is a reason for everyone to vaccinated, you must first ask how many infants statistically caught the disease from an appropriately-vaccinated person in whom the vaccine didn’t “take,” and then ask how many children die every year of asthma, and put them into the balance as well.

    Like

  181. Chl.
    November 3, 2012 at 11:49 am

    “Rates of asthma are rising, not falling, the experts noted. From 2001 to 2010, the proportion of people with asthma increased by almost 15 percent. And by 2009, asthma accounted for nearly 3,400 deaths, nearly 480,000 hospitalizations, 1.9 million emergency department visits, and 8.9 million physician office visits.”

    From Health Day News, May 15, 2012. Notice that the number of deaths from asthma far exceeds the number of deaths from pertussis.

    Like

  182. November 3, 2012 at 12:03 pm
  183. November 3, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    @Cloe, I believe Chris actually asked for a study more recent then the 2009 study she provided showing there was NOT an increase in asthma in children due to pertussis vaccine. Studies from 1994, 1997, 1998 and 2008 are not more recent then 2009. Perhaps you should try again.

    Like

  184. November 3, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    @Lara – I just noticed that at least one of Chloe’s citations was published in a Chiropractic Journal…why would a study of vaccines & asthma be published in that kind of journal?

    Like

  185. lilady
    November 3, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    @ Chloe…I willing to bet that Dr. Eisenstein has not included this study, which proves that vaccination is NOT associated asthma, allergies, atopic conditions, but rather having had measles infection or pertussis infection, results in increased risk;

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23005697

    Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2012 Sep 24. doi: 10.1111/pai.12007. [Epub ahead of print]
    Association of pertussis and measles infections and immunizations with asthma and allergic sensitization in ISAAC Phase Two.
    Nagel G, Weinmayr G, Flohr C, Kleiner A, Strachan DP; ISAAC Phase Two Study Group.
    Source

    Institute of Epidemiology and Medical Biometry, Ulm University, Ulm, Germany.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Pertussis and measles infection as well as vaccination have been suspected as possible mediating factors of allergic disease in childhood.
    METHODS:

    Between 1995 and 2005 cross-sectional studies were performed in 29 centers in 21 countries. Parental questionnaires were used to collect information on allergic diseases and exposures. We analyzed data from 54,943 randomly selected schoolchildren aged 8-12 yr. A subgroup of 31,759 children was also skin prick tested (SPT) to common environmental allergens. Combined odds ratios were calculated by random effect models for meta-analysis.
    RESULTS:

    Pertussis and measles vaccination were not significantly associated with any of the allergy outcomes or SPT positivity. However, pertussis infection was associated with wheeze (OR(ad) 1.68; 95% CI 1.44-1.97) and rhinoconjunctivitis (OR(ad) 1.63; 95% 1.33-2.00). Pertussis infection was also significantly associated with a higher prevalence of reported eczema during the past year in non-affluent countries. Measles infection was associated with a higher prevalence of wheeze (OR(ad) 1.26; 95% 1.10-1.43) and reported eczema (OR(ad) 1.22; 95% 1.08-1.39). No association with SPT positivity was found, suggesting that these associations are unlikely to be mediated by an allergic component.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Associations of pertussis and measles infection with symptoms of asthma, rhinoconjunctivitis and eczema were found in both affluent and non-affluent countries and are unlikely to be mediated by IgE.

    Like

  186. Chris
    November 3, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    Chloe, do you know that years that start with “19” are not later than years that start with “20.” You’ll have to try harder, especially since the papers I included recommended that children with asthma get vaccinated.

    Also, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein is not a a qualified or respected source of evidence.

    Chloe, I also posted a couple of old papers (from the 19th century, and a 1930 paper that references 18th century papers). Now you need to answer the question I asked Joe and others by posting the title, journals and dates that children who are not vaccinated are healthier. Remember to not post anything from doctors with legal problems, or chiropractors… and definitely not the online survey by a German homeopath.

    Like

  187. ch.
    November 5, 2012 at 10:42 am

    Chris,

    Theoretically, a scientifc study published by a reputable medical journal has been vetted by the magazine’s editorial board, and at least should be taken seriously and used considered when making the vaccine decision. Being published fifteen years ago should not make any difference to the truth of the study. The earth still goes around the sun even though it’s been half a millenium since Copernicus’ time.

    The less-effective acellular version of the pertussis vaccine replaced the more-effective, but more-dangerous whole-cell version around the year 2000. That should be taken into consideration, but the fact that asthma figues have only gotten worse rather than better may have a lot to do with the increased frequency that the Tdap is being used in people older than seven.

    The studies you cite are often funded by Big Pharma, and that should be taken into consideration as well. People should remember all the tobacco science studies funded by tobacco companies in the ’50s and ’60s that purported to show that smoking had only benefits and no dangers.

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  188. Chris
    November 5, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Chloe:

    That should be taken into consideration, but the fact that asthma figues have only gotten worse rather than better may have a lot to do with the increased frequency that the Tdap is being used in people older than seven.

    Citation needed. Make sure it is dated after the introduction of Tdap in the American pediatric schedule.

    Okay, let us look at a couple of your citations:

    Epidemiology. 1997 Nov;8(6):678-80.
    Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy?

    “The Christchurch Health and Development Study comprises 1,265 children born in 1977. The 23 children who received no diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus (DPT) and polio immunizations had no recorded asthma episodes or consultations for asthma or other allergic illness before age 10 years”

    Thorax. 1998 Nov;53(11):927-32.
    Early childhood infection and atopic disorder.

    “A total of 1934 subjects representing a retrospective 1975-84 birth group at a family doctor practice in Oxfordshire were studied.”

    This is precisely why I asked for more recent studies. You posted studies that used children who are now adults, and in places like New Zealand and England. They were also one tenth the size of the population used in the German study that Joe/Mick did not like, especially since they were not on the American schedule. Do tell me how the 1970s schedules in two other countries are equivalent to 21st century American pediatric schedule.

    Chloe:

    The studies you cite are often funded by Big Pharma,

    Please list which ones those were, and include the wording showing that funding. For instance Routine Vaccination Against Pertussis and the Risk of Childhood Asthma: A Population-Based Cohort Study says:

    This work was supported by funds from the Swiss National Science Foundation (grants 823B-046481, 3233–069348, and 3200–069349) (Switzerland), Research and Development Directorates of National Health Service Trusts (United Kingdom), Children’s Research Fund (United Kingdom), and Medisearch (Leicester, United Kingdom).

    Now tell us how those public and charitable foundations are part of Big Pharma, with verifiable documentation.

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  189. November 5, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    @Chloe – science advances. Chris has shown that subsequent studies (done after the ones that you cited) showed no increased risk of asthma.

    And using the Tobacco Science myth, as well? There were plenty of studies and lots of research that showed smoking was bad for you – from the 50’s & 60’s even – so you’re not comparing apples to apples here.

    Measuring raw numbers is also misleading, since the US population has increased substantially since the late 1970’s – you would expect to see a larger total population with asthma & allergies, because there are more people. Is the number today substantially higher, proportionally, than in the past?

    If so, what other risk-factors are in play? Increased use of anti-microbial productions, hand sanitizers, etc? How about the spread of plants like ragweed & increased pollen production due to Global Warming? How about the overall increase in child obesity – where we see an increase in childhood diabetes & yes, asthma as a result? Or what about increases in environmental pollutants – like Coal dust, for example?

    You are attempting to put all of this at the feet of vaccines – where I can show you at least a half a dozen other reasons (much more plausible, with actual science to back them up) – PUBMED is a wonderful resource for finding all kinds of actual evidence – as opposed to shear conjecture.

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  190. Chris
    November 5, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Chloe:

    People should remember all the tobacco science studies funded by tobacco companies in the ’50s and ’60s that purported to show that smoking had only benefits and no dangers

    And that makes the studies done by the CDC, NHS, WHO, and other public health agencies bad? Oh, here is something about that: The price paid: Manipulation of otolaryngologists by the tobacco industry to obfuscate the emerging truth that smoking causes cancer. The connection between tobacco use and cancer was known starting in the 1940s*, it was false advertising that tobacco companies using to keep up sales.

    It is very similar to the the tactics used by SafeMinds when they hire researchers, and by Richard Barr when he hired Andrew Wakefield. You need to be more careful about pulling that comparison in the future.

    * The epidemiological studies done in the UK are beautifully explained in the book The Emperor of All Maladies by Siddhartha Mukherjee. Read that before using the “tobacco study” story again.

    Like

  191. Dr. John Aspen
    August 22, 2013 at 8:46 am

    Chris perhaps you should do some research on who is running these organizations. I have and without exception, the CDC fornthe past 15 years has been run by corporate pharmecuetical drug companies executives who still havevested interests in their companies, mainly in stock options so do the math then shut the he-doubletoothpicks up, we are tired of seeing your posts. Another proud day for you and your family. Tell us, which government agency is paying you to sit here and write these dis-info posts? I’ll bet several.

    Like

  192. Lawrence
    August 22, 2013 at 10:06 am

    @Dr John – perhaps you should comment on a more recent post….

    Like

  193. Chris
    August 22, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Dr. Aspen, you need to provide some verifiable documentation to support your claim. Tell us to do research pretty much shows you have nothing, especially with the empty accusations.

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