Home > In the News, Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases > Pertussis In My Town. Now what?

Pertussis In My Town. Now what?

Two things happened last Friday that reminded me of why I started contributing to this blog.

First, I received a note from our school nurse, saying that my daughter was not compliant with the state immunization requirements and needed to provide documentation of her Tdap booster.  The second was a phone alert that I received from the school alerting parents to the fact that there are confirmed cases of whooping cough (also known as pertussis) in our area.

Although my daughter is compliant (the nurse had never received the immunization records we submitted when we registered), I appreciated the work that was being done to ensure overall immunization compliance, especially in regards to the Tdap vaccine which helps prevent against a dangerous pertussis infection.

Last year I learned a lot about pertussis as I followed the CA epidemic, which ultimately claimed the lives of 10 infants.  This year, I’ve covered the rising number of whooping cough cases, to include the current epidemic in WA, as well as many other states across the country. Fairly recently I read of a NC infant who died as a result of pertussis.  And in the past few years I’ve come to  know many parents who have lost their children to pertussis.

So, needless to say, when it comes to pertussis, I understand the concerns.  This is why I was so grateful to see the school nurse and our local Health Department trying so hard to get the message out to the parents.

But today, as I think about why I started contributing to this blog, I’m wondering…do the parents in my community realize how dangerous pertussis can be?  Do they even know what it is?  Do they know that immunity to a disease like pertussis wanes over time? That even if their children were fully immunized as infants that they need a Tdap booster around ages 10-11 to help extend their immunity? While preteens usually do not get as sick from pertussis as young children, coughing fits can still occur for 10 weeks or more and the prolonged illness can cause lengthy disruptions in school and even sometimes require hospitalization. Pertussis spreads easily through the air when an infected person breathes, coughs, or sneezes and a person can spread the disease while having cold-like symptoms and for about 2 weeks after coughing starts.

I’m also concerned that many of these parents and other adults in our community are not current on their immunizations either.  Do they know that adults need a Tdap booster too?  One of the biggest concerns with pertussis is that it often goes undiagnosed, resulting in infected adults and children unknowingly spreading the disease to others.  Do they understand that young children are at the greatest risk for serious consequences and even death as a result of a pertussis infection?  Do they realize that we can try to protect those too young to be vaccinated by ensuring that everyone around them is up to date with their adolescent and adult Tdap boosters?

But the reality is that vaccination does not guarantee immunity, because no vaccine is 100% effective.  This is what concerns me about a largely unvaccinated community.  Though a vaccinated individual is more likely to have a milder case than an unvaccinated individual, their risk of contracting pertussis in the first place depends on exposure.  And the fewer vaccinated people there are in a community the greater the chance that the disease has to spread, even to a few people who are in fact vaccinated.

Unfortunately, our school nurse was concerned about our school’s compliance rate.  While some of the children without documentation may be vaccinated, the fact is that there are lots of students without documentation.  Who knows how many are unvaccinated?  While some parents may have not vaccinated their child because they  have a religious or medical exemption, that documentation needs to be provided to the school.  However, I suspect that most of the parents are simply unaware that their child is in need of a Tdap booster.  It may be that they had planned to get the vaccine but forgot.  It may be that they haven’t been vaccinated because they didn’t have time to go to the doctor.  Or perhaps they didn’t feel pertussis was that dangerous of a disease and the vaccine was not that important.  It may be that they are not aware of the school’s requirements and the current concern about pertussis in the community.  Whatever the reasoning, now is the time for parents to start paying attention and taking action.

Parents can start by reviewing the information available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that outlines the dangers of whooping cough and the importance of vaccination.  They may also be interesting in hearing from students as well – students like those in this Shot By Shot video below who have suffered with pertussis.

 

As parents, I believe we must do all that we can to protect our children.  So I urge everyone (to include parents, grandparents and adolescents) to go and get their Tdap booster today.  It’s simple and you may even find that it can be administered right at your local pharmacy. And if your bringing your kids for their school immunization, why not get one yourself.   After all, you are your child’s greatest role model. 

  1. September 11, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    very grateful for the notification from the school. My newborn wasn’t even a month old and I knew I would have to be extra strict with her safety and who’d have contact with her. It was also an opportunity to discuss the importance of immunizations and boosters during play-dates and on the playground. I referred many people to Vaccinate Your Baby and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia’s website which have great resources to educate and clarify common misunderstandings about vaccines.

    Like the blog mentions, many of my fellow parents were unaware of the need for the Tdap booster around ages 10-11 and how easily spread pertussis is especially to newborns. They also didn’t know that 1 of 200 infants with pertussis die, hence my concern.

    Hopefully your school district is limited to the one case and anyone in need of a booster (children and adults alike) contact their doctor for more information!

    Like

  2. anne
    September 11, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    The disease is unpleasant, both I and my fully-vaccinated 8 month old daughter got it, and of course it was unpleasant and scary, ten coughs per breath, my daughter coughed up sheets of mucus at the end of each fit, she coughed for over a month, I coughed over two months, and then we got well. The young people in the video all had it and got well. Now all of us have an average of over thirty years of immunity. The vaccine is dangerous, often causing asthma, allergies, seizure disorders, SIDS, or autism. The booster at 18 months wiped out my daughter’s only two words, and she said nothing again until 34 months of age, by which time she had already been diagnosed with autism.

    80-90% of the 23,000 cases diagnosed in the US so far this year (thousands more cases have occurred, but not been officially diagnosed or reported) had been appropriately vaccinated. CDC doctor Anne Schuchat said unvaccinated people cannot be blamed for this epidemic, as most of the people getting it had been vaccinated. There have been 13 deaths, all or most of them of young infants, who should be quarantined at home for their protection. See Dr. Suzanne Humphries on vitamin C therapy for babies with whooping cough, safer and more effective than antibiotics or cough suppressants. If the vaccine works at all in a particular case, the immunity may last as little as three years. I’m glad my daughter and I had it, and can no longer give it to infants or anyone else. The girl in the video was incorrect when she said Get your Tdap, then you won’t give it to anyone. She should have said Maybe you’ll be protected, and maybe you won’t give it to anyone. Then again, maybe not.

    Like

  3. September 11, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    I have been following all the news on whopping cough lately and got my immunization for it Friday. I don’t want to be responsible to passing it along to an unprotected child or person who may very well die from such an awful, preventable illness. Thanks for shedding light and awareness on the issue.

    Like

  4. Lawrence
    September 11, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    @anne / Ella / cia / Cynthia / Parker or whatever….why the name change again?

    Like

  5. Kelly
    September 11, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    We when interact with these vaccine preventable diseases on a regular basis, it is easy to forget that most people don’t realize how dangerous these diseases are and how vaccines can prevent illness.

    There is a lot of misinformation about the effectiveness of the vaccines. Anti-vaxers also think the vaccines causes autism, asthma, allergies, seizures or SIDS. All these adverse events have been investigated and found not to be associated with this vaccine. The use of vitamin C to treat pertussis is pure poppycock.

    Thanks for directing parents to reliable information on vaccines.

    Like

  6. anne
    September 11, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Law,
    Blocked again.

    Like

  7. James
    September 11, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    anne, your response is full of misinformation and half truths. If that’s your typical style of response then I can’t image why anyone would block you.

    Like

  8. Lawrence
    September 11, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    @anne – doing something over and over again, hoping to get a different result…..you do know what that’s the definition for, right?

    Like

  9. Joe
    September 11, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    @Law
    Is the answer….the need for more boosters?

    Like

  10. andrea
    September 11, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    Anne is onto something. I encourage you to read the following: http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=293002&A=SearchResult&SearchID=5018759&ObjectID=293002&ObjectType=55
    I work in a vet clinic and had a basic understanding of the dog vaccine for Bordetella (which isn’t very effective), and started out pro-vax for my daughter, but keep coming across valid info causing me to question that stance.

    Like

  11. Rene
    September 11, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    Kelly wrote the vaccine for pertussis is not associated with seizures. That is incorrect. The DTaP vaccine has a 1 in 14,000 chance of seizures. The CDC reports this info themselves on their DTaP vaccine info sheet. My pediatrician hands out these CDC vaccine info sheets prior to giving the vaccine. You can read it for yourself here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-dtap.pdf

    My son at 5 months old after receiving his second round of the DTaP and had 18 seizures in three days. There is no way to know 100% if it was from the vaccine or not. However, he is now 3 and a half has absolutely no health problems and is typically developing. He has never gotten the DTaP again and has NEVER had another seizure. The pertussis component of the vaccine is the one that has the side effect of seizures. My son has gotten just the DT vaccine for the rest of the series.

    Do I want my son to get pertussis– of course not. But he will more then likely recover from it and be just fine. I am more concerned that if my son got the pertussis vaccine again he would get more seizures, possibly develop at life time seizure disorder or suffer brain damage.

    Like

  12. Chris
    September 11, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    andrea, there are several problems with that page, aside from the terrible use of yellow highlighting: she wants people to get sick with pertussis instead of avoiding it. Considering that it tends to kill babies, cause seizures and give some people lifetime lung issues, I think I’ll just keep with getting the Tdap every ten years if I have to.

    Rene, seizures happen. Often the reason is never known. Did you notice that that same document also says about the disease itself: “It can lead to pneumonia, seizures (jerking and staring spells), brain damage, and death.”

    Now if your child had a seizure just a few days later, that means that he will not get another DTaP. So you need to encourage everyone else to get the vaccine. That is what I did when my son was denied the DTP vaccine, and only got the DT vaccine after having seizures as an infant (it was more than eighteen, they were first several minutes apart, and then every few seconds…but they stopped when he got phenobarbital in the Infant Intensive Care Unit). Which was before he had any vaccine (too old for birth HepB). I made sure every child he came into contact with had been vaccinated (our county was having a pertussis outbreak).

    He did fine with the Tdap as a teenager. Which is good, since he also has a genetic heart disorder and much less likely to survive pertussis (and he got another seizure when he had another now vaccine preventable disease). It is something we only found out about when a heart murmur was heard during a doctor visit when he was fourteen years old. (He had open heart surgery a few months ago. When I saw him in the ICU having shivers from the anesthesia wearing off I freaked out because they reminded me of his seizures).

    Like

  13. lilady
    September 12, 2012 at 1:33 am

    Andrea, bragging about “working” in a vet clinic and pretended she *knows* about B. pertussis, makes this statement…

    “I work in a vet clinic and had a basic understanding of the dog vaccine for Bordetella (which isn’t very effective), and started out pro-vax for my daughter, but keep coming across valid info
    causing me to question that stance.”

    Try looking up “kennel cough” Andrea and then come back to tell us which bacterium causes that disease in pets.

    Like

  14. Lara Lohne
    September 12, 2012 at 4:28 am

    anne :
    The disease is unpleasant, both I and my fully-vaccinated 8 month old daughter got it,

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

    A child is not fully vaccinated against pertussis until they receive their fifth and final dose between 4 and 6 years of age. Please, Anne/ella/cia, stop lying about your daughter getting it when she was fully vaccinated, because she was not. No child would be at eight months of age, even if their parents have fully complied with all recommended vaccinations. The information you are spreading is false. Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it any more true, or any less false, then the first time you said it.

    Like

  15. September 12, 2012 at 5:34 am

    @lara – again, cia / cynthia / parker / ella / anne is using any and all opportunities to spread the exact same incorrect, misleading information over and over and over. No matter how many times she’s proven to be incorrect or to outright lie (seems to be happening more and more frequently now), she still will start ever single thread with the same post trying to blame vaccines for everything that is wrong with the world (as if the world before vaccines was some kind of nirvana).

    And you’re right, by saying her daughter was “fully” vaccinated against pertussis, when she was not, is another incorrect statement.

    And she still wonders why she keeps getting blocked……

    Like

  16. September 12, 2012 at 7:00 am

    All immunisation comes with a risk, and we all need to be aware of that. However, whooping cough is an insideous disease and it kills. There is no acceptable reason for people to be plying misinformation on this subject. The anti-vax lobby operates on a 0%/100% simplistic view of the world so they are blind to the facts. I’m immunised. I’ve never had whooping cough (thank goodness) but more importantly, i’ve never passed whooping cough onto another person and that for me is very important. People die of whooping cough. Can I say that enough? People die of whooping cough. No ifs, no buts, it’s a killer and it’s preventable. It’s why it’s known as a vaccine preventable disease. Vaccines will stop many from catching whooping cough, for others it will ensure that the disease isn’t as severe as what it would have been had a person not been immunised. The effectiveness of the whooping cough vaccine fades over time, and it’s important that we, as adults, get boosters for in many instances it’s us who pass it onto small babies. Get immunised people, and immunise your children (unless there is a clearly defined medical reason not to). Don’t worry about the anti-vax lobby, they are cranks.

    Like

  17. September 12, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Evidence Contradicts Whooping Cough Pro-Vaccine Propaganda

    In the traditional manner of annual pro-vaccine propaganda, a recent report by Laura L. Myers of Reuters published on July 20, 2012, continues the seasonal fear-mongering by the vaccine industry and the medical establishment in an attempt to stampede Americans into receiving the DTaP (Diptheria, Tetanus & Pertussis) vaccine.

    Entitled, “U.S. whooping cough outbreak could be worst in half century,” the article repeats the warning that has undoubtedly come straight from the vaccine industry and the public health agencies they control, that 2012 “is on track to be the most severe [Pertussis outbreak] in over half a century . . .”

    The culprit for the next outbreak that will kill us all? You guessed it – the lack of vaccination.

    In her article Myers states (repeats) the claim that “possible waning vaccination” is the cause for the alleged increase in the numbers of Pertussis cases occurring in the United States in 2012.
    http://globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/search?q=whooping+cough

    Like

  18. anne
    September 12, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Ilyria,
    A very small number of people die of whooping cough, most of them young babies who should be kept in quarantine at home to protect them. If you think it kills a lot of people, then I’d like to ask you to cite your figures. The vaccine, on the other hand, kills many more people than the disease.

    Like

  19. anne
    September 12, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Law,
    I should have said “appropriately vaccinated for her age,” according to the recommended schedule, when she got pertussis at 8 months old, she had received the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months.

    Like

  20. anne
    September 12, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Lara and Law,
    It is disingenuous to go on and on about my saying my daughter had been fully vaccinated at 8 months when she had only been appropriately vaccinated. Obviously she would not have gotten more than three at 8 months. But beyond that, a huge percentage of those much older than five getting pertussis this year had gotten all the recommended vaccines. If you want to dispute that, you’ll have to take it up with CDC doctor Anne Schuchat, who said this year’s epidmemic could not be blamed on the unvaccinated.

    Like

  21. anne
    September 12, 2012 at 10:12 am

    L,
    I think Andrea was saying that neither the Bordatella vaccine for dogs (kennel cough) nor the Bordatella vaccine for humans (pertussis) is very effective, which is true.

    Like

  22. anne
    September 12, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Rene,
    Great post, but I gotta warn you. They’re going to say that the warnings on the vaccine package insert are not proven, not true, and only there to cover them from lawsuit. Vaccine damage reports to the VAERS are anecdotal, unproven, and unlinked to the vaccines. Your account of your son’s vaccine reaction they will try to dismiss as anecdotal and unproven, the way they do to all of us vaccine-damaged families. Of course Kelly is wrong. But if your son were to get pertussis, don’t worry, it’s not usually dangerous in those over four months old, give or take a month. My (appropriately vaccinated for her age) daughter got pertussis at 8 months old and gave it to me. Of course it was unpleasant and alarming, but it wasn’t dangerous, and after one and two months of coughing, respectively, and now have, if we’re average, over thirty years of immunity, much better than that sometimes given by the vax. My daughter reacted to the hep-B vax at birth with encephalitis and subsequent autism, I reacted to a tetanus booster with brachial plexus neuropathy and subsequent M.S., so we’ll never be getting any vaxes again.

    Like

  23. September 12, 2012 at 10:38 am

    @anne – once again, you have to backtrack (when your exact quote was “fully vaccinated”). And please provide proof of people dying from the DTaP vaccine please, because just asserting it isn’t any sort of proof at all – especially when we can stack your unsubstantiated statements against the very real deaths of babies from Pertussis.

    And anne / cia / parker / cynthia – it is disingenuous for you to keep posting the exact same lies, misinformation and distortions over and over and over again – being blocked for making those very same assertions over and over again, and coming back to do the exact same thing again under a different name (perhaps to make it seem like more people agree with her position than actually exist).

    Finally, you continually use your own experience as the “baseline or normal” which gives us total sample size of n=1, which cannot be used as any sort of guide to provide medical advice or draw any conclusions from – but you want to continue to make blanket assertions based on your own, very limited and incorrect view of vaccines. That’s just poor science from the get-go.

    When we examine the actual, real evidence, across entire populations, we find that vaccine reactions are by far (95%+) extremely mild (for those people that actually experience reactions, since the majority do not). The very small portion of individuals that do suffer more severe reactions are tracked, both by the CDC and FDA as part of multiple surveillance programs, and still represent a very small minority of all of those receiving vaccines.

    If anne’s claims were actually correct, her family alone should be the subject of a case-study on vaccine reactions – since she claims across the board, severe reactions, to every single vaccine she or her family ever received. That, by itself, is an “extraordinary” claim and requires extraordinary proof, since it flies in the face of all previous and current scientific research.

    Since you can’t even point to a VAERS entry, you never filed a claim with the Vaccine Court & you certainly can’t even provide a decent story that is even plausible, based on known biological mechanisms of the vaccines you cite, it is pointless to try to engage you in direct conversation. All we can keep doing is show how your information and story are completely and utterly wrong, most likely fabricated, and continue to provide actual, real scientific evidence so people can truly be educated on the benefits and risks of vaccines – not the “vaccine apocalypse” that you are attempting to spread here through your lies, misinformation and distortions.

    Like

  24. Lara Lohne
    September 12, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    @Anne/ella/cia that’s really rich, you asking for a citation when you can’t even do the same for your claim that most of the cases of pertussis show up in the appropriately vaccinated. Where is your citation for that please? I’m pretty sure a claim by Sears or Mercola doesn’t count. This should be a PubMed indexed paper.

    And by the way, just because pertussis is most dangerous in the very young, and they have the greatest number of deaths, doesn’t mean their deaths don’t count. Your attitude about that is very callous and quite appalling and off putting to anyone with a child, and particularly those who have lost a child to pertussis. Try to show some compassion and humanity when engaging in these discussions, if you cannot then please refrain from engaging. Especially since you are not able to back up your claims with peer reviewed scientific papers.

    Pertussis may not have damaged you and your daughter (didn’t you say once it was a friend who diagnosed you with it anyway rather then a doctor? So how do we know that is actually what you and your daughter had as opposed to just a bad cold?) but you and your daughter are not the only people to have suffered through pertussis, and not everyone is as lucky as you are. I am numbered among those that did not come out of pertussis unscathed. I know there was another woman who posted here recently who had similar damage to her lungs that I have. That makes two posters here who suffered permanent damage from pertussis to one poster who did not. So far more of us (commenters on this blog) have been damaged from pertussis then recovered completely. You are not a population unto yourself, keep that in mind because when you speak about your experience as if it is normal for everyone ever, you are doing those of us who were not so lucky a disservice by writing us off and making our damage not count.

    Like

  25. alyssa
    September 12, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/whooping-cough-vaccine-failures-increasing-kpbs-san-diego/

    This is about the failure of the vaccine, the large percentage of people getting it who were vaccinated, and Dr. Anne Schuchat saying outbreak can’t be blamed on unvaccinated

    Like

  26. September 12, 2012 at 2:02 pm
  27. lilady
    September 12, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    CIA Parker, why don’t you let Andrea answer the question I posed to her?

    CIA, since you decided to answer the questions I posed to Andrea, please provide the answer to this question (now rephrased for *clarity*):

    What Bacterium causes “kennel cough” in pets and what bacterium causes whooping cough in humans?

    Take your time now, CIA Parker, we realize how intently you conduct your research before you post.

    Like

  28. cindy
    September 12, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    The bacterium bordetella bronchiseptica causes kennel cough in dogs, and bordetella pertussis causes whooping cough in humans, both characterized by a series of many staccato coughs. The bacteria are closely related to one another, as evidenced by the bordetella present in both names. The deadly DPT used to be more effective at preventing pertussis than the modern DTaP. The kennel cough vaccine is often ineffective at preventing the disease.

    Like

  29. September 12, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    @lilady – OMG, how many cia parker sock puppets are we dealing with now? I mean, seriously, I’m beginning to suspect she might also be Joe.

    Like

  30. Chris
    September 12, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    cindy:

    The deadly DPT

    Citation needed. Something more recent than this:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    Like

  31. cindy
    September 12, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    The library probably has A Shot in the Dark.

    Like

  32. Chris
    September 12, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    That is not a citation. It is a book written by a someone in public relations and a guy who studied Russian studies and political science. And it was written in the 1980s before Dravet Syndrome was discovered.

    Again, please tell us the title, date and journal of the PubMed indexed paper published in this century that confirms the DTP was a “deadly” vaccine.

    Like

  33. lilady
    September 12, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    @ Lawrence…I told you weeks ago…that the “original” CIA Parker has “morphed” into a number of sockies. Cripes, CIA Parker’s sockies are reproducing faster than cock roaches on this site.

    @ CIA Parker, et al….Your sockie “Cindy” *offered* an *opinion* about the lack of difference between the bacterium that causes “kennel cough” and the bacterium that infects humans…

    “The bacterium bordetella bronchiseptica causes kennel cough in dogs, and bordetella pertussis causes whooping cough in humans, both characterized by a series of many staccato
    coughs. The bacteria are closely related to one another, as evidenced by the bordetella present in both names. The deadly DPT used to be more effective at preventing pertussis than the modern DTaP. The kennel cough vaccine is often ineffective at preventing the disease.”

    Linky, linky, linky to any scientific statements/citations that back up your “opinion”?

    Like

  34. alyssa
    September 12, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    Why don’t you post your link if you can find anything other than what I wrote here? It occurred to me while I was making dinner that another similarity is that kennel cough, like pertussis, is only usually dangerous to puppies and babies.

    Like

  35. alyssa
    September 12, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    A Shot in the Dark was published when the DPT was still the standard, the decade when all this started, T.V. exposé programs like Vaccine Roulette. Fisher and Coulter’s book is filled with scientific studies and explanations, as well as many case histories of babies who met tragic ends reacting to the DPT. Fortunately, large numbers of people were aghast when they read it, and got it taken off the market. Have you told Rene that her son’s seizures after the pertussis vaccine were only anecdotal and nothing more than coincidental?

    Like

  36. September 12, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    alyssa :
    Why don’t you post your link if you can find anything other than what I wrote here? It occurred to me while I was making dinner that another similarity is that kennel cough, like pertussis, is only usually dangerous to puppies and babies.

    Yes, alyssa, because obviously you care nothing for the health of babies or puppies…..

    Like

  37. cindy
    September 12, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Kennel cough is not a routine vax, but only for dogs in large groups like at a breeder’s or boarding at a kennel or vet’s. I would never put a puppy into a large group of dogs, nor would I put a baby in a large group of people, especially children.

    Like

  38. Chris
    September 12, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    alyssa/cindy/cia/ella/anne, Shot in the Dark is a book by two unqualified persons with an agenda, and a tendency to cherry pick. It is the reason that there was a pertussis outbreak in my county when my son was born, and he was denied protection from pertussis due to neonatal seizures.

    Subsequent research has shown everything in that book and the notorious “documentary” was wrong. So again, produce the title, journal and date from this century of the PubMed indexed paper that shows the DTP was as dangerous as you claim. I have given you an example, try to emulate it. You should also read Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story.

    Like

  39. September 13, 2012 at 10:49 am

    @cindy / ella, cia parker / cynthia, et. al. – why do you insist that babies need to get sick, potentially die or be crippled from diseases that can be easily prevented?

    We can show real evidence that these diseases maim and kill – you can’t provide any real evidence that the vaccines do anything similar or even have reactions that occur within an order of magnitude of the actual diseases…..more lies, distortions and misinformation from our resident sock-puppet troll.

    Like

  40. Chris
    September 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    meg/cindy/alyssa/whoever, remember I said:

    Again, please tell us the title, date and journal of the PubMed indexed paper published in this century that confirms the DTP was a “deadly” vaccine.

    …. and ….

    So again, produce the title, journal and date from this century of the PubMed indexed paper that shows the DTP was as dangerous as you claim.

    That means the dates on the study come from a year that starts with “20”, not “19.” Do you understand? You may also wish to read this article about that book.

    Like

  41. Steve Michaels
    September 14, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Lara Lohne :

    anne :
    The disease is unpleasant, both I and my fully-vaccinated 8 month old daughter got it,

    A child is not fully vaccinated against pertussis until they receive their fifth and final dose between 4 and 6 years of age. Please, Anne/ella/cia, stop lying about your daughter getting it when she was fully vaccinated, because she was not. No child would be at eight months of age, even if their parents have fully complied with all recommended vaccinations. The information you are spreading is false. Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it any more true, or any less false, then the first time you said it.

    ht tp://w ww.nejm.o rg/doi/fu ll/10.1056/NE JMoa12 008 50

    Let me quote, in case you are too lazy to read the esteemed Journal’s report:

    “Protection against pertussis waned during the 5 years after the fifth dose of DTaP. (Funded by Kaiser Permanente).

    Drs. Klein and Baxter report receiving grant support to their institution from Sanofi Pasteur, GlaxoSmithKline, Novartis, Merck, and Pfizer. No other potential conflict of interest relevant to this article was reported.”

    Even researchers with declared conflicts of interest admit that this vaccine is crap.

    Like

  42. Steve Michaels
    September 14, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Lawrence :
    @cindy / ella, cia parker / cynthia, et. al. – why do you insist that babies need to get sick, potentially die or be crippled from diseases that can be easily prevented?
    We can show real evidence that these diseases maim and kill – you can’t provide any real evidence that the vaccines do anything similar or even have reactions that occur within an order of magnitude of the actual diseases…..more lies, distortions and misinformation from our resident sock-puppet troll.

    Can you prove that the vaccine even works? Of course not. Even the ‘experts’ you trust admit that the vaccine doesn’t work. so who is the troll? The idiot who propagates falsehoods (that’s you, in case you didn’t realize) or the one trying to set the record straight?

    Like

  43. Chris
    September 14, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012 Mar 14;3:CD001478.
    Acellular vaccines for preventing whooping cough in children.

    Like

  44. September 14, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    @Steve – wow, that’s an idiotic statement, even for you…..further down the rabbit hole you go.

    Like

  45. Steve Michaels
    September 14, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Chris :
    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012 Mar 14;3:CD001478.
    Acellular vaccines for preventing whooping cough in children.

    Having been published in September 2012, my reference to the New England Journal of Medicine is more recent than your reference. In addition, the CDC has admitted that the current pertussis outbreak is due to a vaccine failure and not a failure to vaccinate.

    Like

  46. Steve Michaels
    September 14, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Steve – wow, that’s an idiotic statement, even for you…..further down the rabbit hole you go.

    Who is further down the rabbit hole? Me, who has provided supporting evidence or you who makes unsubstantiated claims and refuses to provide substantiation?

    Go on then shill, set the record straight….

    Like

  47. Chris
    September 14, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Sorry, I could not see it. Because when I only got a: 404 Page Not Found

    Try citing it again, but without all of the space.

    Like

  48. Chris
    September 14, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    Okay, I found it. It is not as dire as you said: Waning Protection after Fifth Dose of Acellular Pertussis Vaccine in Children. That is not exactly “vaccine failure.” Essentially it is an argument for a booster sooner than age eleven. Which I believe I have mentioned before.

    Since bacteria are more complicated than viruses, especially the damage they do is from the toxins they create, it is more difficult to create a long lasting vaccine. This is one reason why there has always been ten year tetanus booster. Tetanus is a bit harder to get, so that was usually sufficient. A sooner booster from pertussis for older kids is reasonable.

    Like

  49. lilady
    September 14, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Chris…Here’s another study of waning immunity, plotting out epidemiological studies of individual cases and the age that the cases (children) received their 5th and final DTaP (Currently recommended between 4 and 6 years of age).

    Look at the graph and the paragraphs that accompany it and the conclusions drawn by these studies…which is similar to what you have stated above.

    http://www.chestnet.org/accp/article/chest-physician/pertussis-vaccine%E2%80%99s-waning-immunity-cause-epidemic

    Too bad that some people don’t know the difference between Primary Vaccine Failure and Secondary Vaccine Failure (“waning immunity”).

    Like

  50. Chris
    September 14, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    Eleven years old is too late for those who had their last DTaP at age four/five. And perhaps the ten year tetanus booster will just be replaces with the Tdap for the next few decades.

    Bacteria are more complicated and sneakier than viruses. So they needed to be protected against more often.

    Like

  51. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 12:06 am

    “Eleven years old is too late for those who had their last DTaP at age four/five. And perhaps the ten year tetanus booster will just be replaces with the Tdap for the next few decades.”

    I’m thinking along the same lines, Chris.

    Here’s the timeline for the ACIP Recommendations for Tdap vaccine for various populations:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/combo-vaccines/dtap-td-dt/tdap.htm

    Thankfully, parents and close household members who anticipate being in close contact with infants under one year of age, are getting Tdap vaccine to protect vulnerable babies.

    Like

  52. Steve Michaels
    September 15, 2012 at 3:30 am

    Chris :
    That is not exactly “vaccine failure.” Essentially it is an argument for a booster sooner than age eleven. Which I believe I have mentioned before.
    Since bacteria are more complicated than viruses, especially the damage they do is from the toxins they create, it is more difficult to create a long lasting vaccine. This is one reason why there has always been ten year tetanus booster. Tetanus is a bit harder to get, so that was usually sufficient. A sooner booster from pertussis for older kids is reasonable.

    How convenient for you and your pharma supporters, eh? The vaccine doesn’t work very well and doesn’t confer REAL immunity, so the solution is the get MORE vaccines! What a scam you support! It is so blatantly obvious now that people are seeing through your propaganda. That is why you and yours are so busy trying to legislate ‘compliance’ (a term mutually exclusive of liberty). You know people are waking up so you want to use FORCE before too many band together and get the word out to the rest.

    Like

  53. Chris
    September 15, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Mr. Michaels, there is no guarantee that the actual disease confers “real immunity.” So, yeah, getting another simple vaccine is much much better than letting kids get sick.

    And the suggestion of increasing the boosters for DTaP is not “forcing” people to do anything.

    Like

  54. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    @ Chris: I know that Mr. Michaels does not understand the difference between “Primary Vaccine Failure” and “Secondary Vaccine Failure” (waning immunity). That is why the CDC is funding research bor new more effective pertussis-antigen-containing vaccines.

    Have you seen this article about the controversy of the DTP vaccine “side effects” that were reported by, and promoted by, the Grande Dame of the anti-vaccine movement?

    http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/09/13/the-whole-cell-pertussis-vaccine-media-malpractice-and-the-long-term-effects-of-avoiding-difficult-conversations/

    Like

  55. Steve Michaels
    September 15, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Chris :
    Mr. Michaels, there is no guarantee that the actual disease confers “real immunity.” So, yeah, getting another simple vaccine is much much better than letting kids get sick.
    And the suggestion of increasing the boosters for DTaP is not “forcing” people to do anything.

    It is the logical end game. What the shills on this site praise and support at every opportunity is the removal of freedom of choice and the advancement of legislative requirements to force compliance. There is already a media push starting to warm up the public for mandatory adult vaccinations. Only a fool or a shill can deny it.

    Like

  56. September 15, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    @Steve – you sound like the “gun nuts” that freak out about ammo registration or concealed-carry restrictions, when no piece of stricter regulation has been passed in almost a decade…..there has been no push to make vaccines mandatory, and you know it – you see conspiracies around every corner, when they don’t exist.

    What has been pushed is increased, real education of parents, so they can make the best possible decisions regarding vaccines. I prefer people deal with facts, not the fiction that anti-vaccine cranks are pushing on the Internet.

    Like

  57. Lara Lohne
    September 15, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    @Lawrence, I totally agree with your assessment of Mr. Michaels and his opinions and theories.

    @Steve, the more you rant about ‘forced’ immunizations, the more you sound like a ‘conspiracy nut case’ and you are actually undermining your own position by doing so. None of us here are about forcing anyone to do anything. As I’ve stated to you, we are here only to correct the misinformation being spread by people such as yourself so people can make real informed decisions. Even the new legislation that you keep going on and on about isn’t any kind of attempt to force anyone, it’s just about making sure that parents are getting correct information from a trusted source before they make the decision to not vaccinate their children.

    There is also the choice about where to send your child if you choose not to vaccinate. Nobody is forcing anyone to send their child to public school, nor is anyone forcing anyone whose child attends a public school to be immunized. But should an outbreak occur in your area, be ready to have your unvaccinated child removed from public school. After all, if you are going to take advantage of a source of education that is funded by tax payer dollars, then all those tax payers will be, and should be, taken into consideration when the outbreak if a VPD occurs. If you make the choice to not vaccinate your child and send them to public school, don’t expect special treatment simply because you view yourself as a freedom fighter or whatever.

    You and your child and your rights are no more important then anyone else’s. So when it comes right down to it, you are attempting to remove the rights of those who wish to not be exposed to and suffer through potentially deadly diseases by refusing to have your children vaccinated and putting them in with the general public. Do you see how your view can be viewed from multiple sides? This is what is called having an open mind, being able to view situations and scenarios from the other person’s perspective. You seem to have significant difficulty with that and you choose to believe anyone who supports vaccination is a shill and paid for their voice of support, but again, we could theorize the same thing about you. Are you funded by Generation Rescue or SafeMinds to speak on the Internet against vaccines?

    Like

  58. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    So Steve, what’s the difference between “Primary Vaccine Failure” and Secondary Vaccine Failure”?

    Like

  59. Steve Michaels
    September 15, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    lilady :
    So Steve, what’s the difference between “Primary Vaccine Failure” and Secondary Vaccine Failure”?

    I will humor you because I find you so amusing. Primary failure is when no antibodies are produced or too few to confer theoretical immunity. Secondary is when there is no primary failure, but the levels of antibodies wane over a given (usually short) period of time.

    Now it’s my turn.

    What is the difference between ‘effectiveness’ and ‘efficacy’?

    Like

  60. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    I asked you what the difference is between “Primary Vaccine Failure” and “Secondary Vaccine Failure”…because you were clueless about the differences…with your statement in your post at # 45 above:

    “Having been published in September 2012, my reference to the New England Journal of Medicine is more recent than your reference. In addition, the CDC has admitted that the current pertussis outbreak is due to a vaccine failure and not a failure to vaccinate.”

    Did you finally the correct definitions at the University of Google, Steve?

    “Now it’s my turn.

    What is the difference between ‘effectiveness’ and ‘efficacy’?”

    No Steve, “now it’s my turn” and because I don’t attend Google U…tell us all about the efficacy and effectiveness of vaccines, based on the formulas used by epidemiologists:

    https://www.hidionline.com/hidi/Documents/Vaccine_Epidemiology.pdf

    Like

  61. Steve Michaels
    September 15, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    lilady :
    I asked you what the difference is between “Primary Vaccine Failure” and “Secondary Vaccine Failure”…because you were clueless about the differences…with your statement in your post at # 45 above:
    “Having been published in September 2012, my reference to the New England Journal of Medicine is more recent than your reference. In addition, the CDC has admitted that the current pertussis outbreak is due to a vaccine failure and not a failure to vaccinate.”
    Did you finally the correct definitions at the University of Google, Steve?
    “Now it’s my turn.
    What is the difference between ‘effectiveness’ and ‘efficacy’?”
    No Steve, “now it’s my turn” and because I don’t attend Google U…tell us all about the efficacy and effectiveness of vaccines, based on the formulas used by epidemiologists:
    https://www.hidionline.com/hidi/Documents/Vaccine_Epidemiology.pdf

    Oh dear, you don’t know do you?

    Like

  62. September 15, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    @Steve – the only reason I can see that you still post here is that you’re under the pay of Generation Rescue, AoA & the other anti-vaccine crank groups….no one else I know could possibly be as willfully deceitful, ignorant, and spiteful as yourself.

    Like

  63. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Yes I do know the difference between efficacy and effectiveness of vaccines and how to determine those difference for a given vaccine, applying epidemiological formulas.

    Answer the question about the higher math involved to determine the differences.

    Oh, dear you really don’t know and you really are ignorant, aren’t you?

    BTW, Steve..how does she statement at # 45 above… “Having been published in September 2012, my reference to the New England Journal of Medicine is more recent than your
    reference. In addition, the CDC has admitted that the current pertussis outbreak is due to a vaccine failure and not a failure to vaccinate.”…square with the correct definitions that you found at the University of Google…that you provided # 59 above?

    Like

  64. lilady
    September 15, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    Lawrence: My best guest is that he has plenty of spare time, might even be unemployable, and cruises the internet to get his doses of pseudoscience from all those anti-vaccine websites.

    He’s an ex-pat living in the U.K. You know what they say about people like Steve? America’s gain is the U.K.’s loss”. 🙂

    Like

  65. Gray Falcon
    September 16, 2012 at 7:56 am

    Steve Michaels :

    Lawrence :
    @Steve – the only reason I can see that you still post here is that you’re under the pay of Generation Rescue, AoA & the other anti-vaccine crank groups….no one else I know could possibly be as willfully deceitful, ignorant, and spiteful as yourself.

    You are so unoriginal Lars. It’s really sad. Sometimes you seem intelligent, and sometimes you resort to playground childishness. Instead of just parroting what I just asked you, why not just say, ‘my dad can beat up your dad, nananananana!!!’

    You played that card first. Don’t be surprised if it’s turned against you.

    Like

  66. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Mr. Michaels, are you being compensated by “Big Hospital Supply”? Since you seem to keen to convince others to not protect their children from diseases and promote that we should be amazed that deaths decreased before vaccines (which was due to expensive hospital care) it is a legitimate question.

    Like

  67. Lara Lohne
    September 16, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    @Steve, you didn’t actually ask any of us anything. You made an assumption that simply because this site happens to be funded by another organization which is funded by industry, (Is six degrees of separation the new evidence meter for the anti-vaccine movement?) then anyone posting comments on this blog in favor of vaccination must also be on the payroll. Not a question. I could take the tact you once tried to use against me (You know what they say about assumption…) but I’m not going to. I simply say if you believe that we are being paid to support vaccines, then perhaps you are being paid by anti-vaccine sites to undermine science based medicine.

    It doesn’t even seem as though you are even against vaccines for vaccine’s sake, but against being ‘forced to vaccinate’ which we have stated time and time again isn’t what we are about. We are about correcting misinformation that is commonly and frequently spread by anti-vaccine activists who don’t simply remain on the anti-vaccine sites, but venture out to science based medicine sites also and try to convince people they are speaking the truth. Your arguments actually do not sit well from the anti-vaccine stand point, at least not the typical one. To be perfectly honest, your arguments are ones that ring truer to those you hear from people who believe, support and seek out conspiracy theories. You have made it fairly clear in the past that there are many of these conspiracies that you believe in, why are we to not take the next logical step in the path and assume you also believe vaccines are a huge Big pharma and government conspiracy like so many other anti-vaccine people also believe for various reasons?

    I’m not pointing fingers, merely attempting to point out to you the behaviors, language and attitude that has led us to believe the things we do about you and your position/argument. I’m pretty certain it doesn’t matter what I say, I have noticed you are very conveniently ignoring my comments. That’s OK, I’m sure it’s more fun for you to argue with Lawrence, since he seems to be the only person you address any more. But other people may be reading this, so they will be able to ‘connect the dots’ now that I’ve pointed it out.

    Like

  68. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Lawrence
    I just read your post in which you said that I claimed that I and my family members had severe reactions to every shot we ever got. That is not true, I have told you the specific vaccines that we reacted to, but, like most people, we had gotten many more than those we obviously reacted to.
    You said I couldn’t even provide a specific VAERS report on deaths from the DTaP. Of course I can. I just hope this is not taken down before you read it.
    187791: 3 month old baby gets DTaP and dies 5 hours later.
    253739: 4 month old baby girl gets DTaP and dies following day
    150475: 6 month old baby gets DTaP and two days later has full cardiac arrest and dies in ambulance
    311936: 6 month old baby gets DTaP (third dose), gets fever and hemorrhagic rash, dies following day.
    124771: 7 month old baby gets DTaP and dies following day
    133897: 11 month old boy gets DTaP and found dead by mother during his nap same day. Cause of death acute pulmonary decompensation
    68561: 2 1/2 year old girl gets DTaP and that same evening collapsed, goes into cardiac arrest, and dies.

    Like

  69. September 16, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @meg / cindy / cia parker / cynthia / alyssa, et. al. – I don’t believe I asked for VAERS entries, as I asked for real evidence, clinical evidence of linkage to fatalities – which you still haven’t provided.

    Once again, if your family reacted in such serious ways, so often, your family alone would be worthy of a major case study by the CDC, but since your obviously making this all up out of whole cloth, it means nothing to the rest of us.

    Statistically even, what you are trying to push here isn’t possible, much less biologically feasible.

    Just go away & take your lies, misrepresentations & distortions with you.

    Like

  70. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    meg, what must you read and understand before using the VAERS database at its official website: http://het.sagepub.com/content/30/9/1429 ? Explain why it says “I have read and understand the preceding statement.” next to the button to use the database.

    It might help if you read this article. Or if you also take a beginning statistics course you would learn about the level of bias in a self-selected survey and that the plural anecdote is not data.

    Like

  71. Steve Michaels
    September 16, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Chris :
    Mr. Michaels, are you being compensated by “Big Hospital Supply”? Since you seem to keen to convince others to not protect their children from diseases and promote that we should be amazed that deaths decreased before vaccines (which was due to expensive hospital care) it is a legitimate question.

    Are you thick or something? I have unequivocally stated that I receive ZERO compensation for anything I do here or anywhere else with regard to vaccines. I have NO connections with any pro- or anti- ANYTHING with regard to health care, not even your imaginary ‘Big Hospital Supply’ which is itself an idiotic expression. Yes, pharma corps make big profits on their products and hospitals put an additional profit mark-up on those products when they are prescribed. Your attempt at making a point is just plain silly.

    Like

  72. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Lawrence,
    From your post #23, above:
    Since you can’t even point to a VAERS entry, you never filed a claim with the Vaccine Court & you certainly can’t even provide a decent story that is even plausible, based on known biological mechanisms of the vaccines you cite, it is pointless to try to engage you in direct conversation. All we can keep doing is show how your information and story are completely and utterly wrong, most likely fabricated, and continue to provide actual, real scientific evidence so people can truly be educated on the benefits and risks of vaccines – not the “vaccine apocalypse” that you are attempting to spread here through your lies, misinformation and distortions.

    You said I couldn’t point to a VAERS entry, I pointed to seven.

    I just found another family in which a lot of members had serious vaccine reactions. I just bought The Spunky Coconut, a cookbook for my daughter’s special diet. In the introduction, Kelly Brozyna talks about her celiac disease, her husband’s ADHD, and her daughter’s autism and gluten and dairy intolerance being caused by vaccines. She says in the intro very much what I said to you last week about the cause of their physical problems:

    ” In my home we are successfully treating a slew of modern epidemics, from autism and ADD, to celiac disease and gluten intolerance… We know that there is no such thing as a purely geneic epidemic, but it is clear that many of our chldren have a predisposition, which is environmentally triggered. This predisposition is the inability to excrete toxins…Vaccines contain mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, and formaldehyde. They (Jenny and Generation Rescue) point out that the number of vaccines given has increased from 10 in 1983 to 36 currently, while no independent studies have proven this quantity and combination to be safe.

    Since our youngest daughter nearly died from seizures the evening of her 4 month vaccine reaction, I have had several friends go to their unknowing pediatricians who denied the presence of mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, and formaldehyde in their vaccines…For this reason, you have to make your own decision before going to the pediatrician. Yes, you do have a choice, and childrn can attend public school with a vaccine exemption in every state. My kids visit a DAN doctor who successfully treats toxic burdens and does not pressure vaccines.”

    Like

  73. September 16, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    @Steve – groups like Generation Rescue & AoA receive advertising dollars from bio-med organizations that push “treatments” for autism that they say are related to “vaccine damage.” If they didn’t push the party line that vaccines are to blame, these same advertisers would go elsewhere.

    If any of these groups published a single positive story on vaccines, they would also lose donation dollars from their base (heck, they won’t even admit that the rabies vaccine is a good thing).

    Wakefield is paid well in speaking fees & receives plenty of donations to his “defense” fund to continue his quest for martyrdom – despite having been proven to have a massive COI – two massive COI’s, actually – one, having taken over $750,000.00 from a British litigator who was in the process of suing the vaccine industry (before his Lancet Study) and also having registered both a patent and business plan for an alternative vaccine (again, before the Lancet Study).

    If you can’t see that the entire anti-vaccine movement is tainted from the top by people with a vested interest in keeping the dollars flowing, then you are an even bigger idiot than you have proven yourself to be.

    As for my own activities, I am nothing more than a concerned & educated parent – I combat the idiocy, lies, distortions and misinformation from people like you, so that parents make educated decisions based on actual facts, not the fiction that you try to spread. There is no need for a “balanced” discussion when all of the facts and evidence exist on a single side – I have as much respect for people like you as I have for 9-11 Truthers or NWO conspiracy theorists.

    I find Todd’s website (linked in my name) to be an excellent starting point to refuting the common anti-vaccine myths – since it contains what Steve can’t provide – actual evidence.

    Like

  74. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Law,
    Are you aware of the very short statute of limitations for filing in Vaccine Court? It was decided before this modern epidemic of vaccine-induced autism and other cognitive disabilities started. So parents are often not aware of the extent of the vaccine damage done by vaccines received in early infancy that damaged the brain until the statute of limitations has expired.

    Like

  75. September 16, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    @meg / cia parker / cynthia / alyssa / et. al. – again with the mercury, anti-freeze & formaldehyde? Seriously, I’ll point you to Todd’s website (linked to my name) to refute each and every one of those myths.

    And, I specifically asked where your VAERS entry was, not VAERS entries in general – because I can also point to the entries where a child turned into the Incredible Hulk & Wonder Woman…..

    So, if you have SO many vaccine reactions, where are YOUR VAERS entries?

    Oh, and lastly – what do you do with the larger quantity of formaldehyde that is circulating in your body right now, created by your own metabolism, on a daily basis?

    Seriously, please stop spreading the same lies, distortions, and misinformation. You aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.

    Like

  76. September 16, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    @meg / cia parker / cynthia / alyssa/ et. al. – you seemed to realize there was a problem in the first 18 months, right? That’s your story – so you had plenty of time to file (3 years). Why didn’t you? Oh right, because it was “too hard.”

    And where is your VAERS entries? You should have at least those, right? I mean, since you seem to be able to point to multiple reactions from multiple people – at least one of them would have been entered in VAERS, right?

    You are just being silly now – seriously, you’ve been proven wrong at every turn.

    Like

  77. Lara Lohne
    September 16, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    @Steve, you are free to be against anything you wish, just as we have the freedom to be pro anything. People also, unfortunately, have the freedom to spread lies and misinformation and try to pass it off as truth, many who do so in fact believe it, but that doesn’t make it true or accurate or real information.

    If you are truly pro-informed consent for vaccinations, then you should be willing to accept the scientific data that shows vaccines are effective at preventing disease with far fewer risks then the diseases themselves present. If you cannot accept the science behind it, then you are not about informed consent, but attempting to undermine science based medicine and convincing people misinformation and lies are true. Again, nobody is forcing anything on anyone, except accurate and complete information regarding vaccines so their decision will actually be informed, rather then misinformed.

    When it comes to scientific data, funding, for the most part, is irrelevant. If SafeMinds or Generation Rescue funded a study on vaccine safety and it showed what the studies funded by ‘big pharma’ show regarding them, would you accept that as true or would you look for conflict of interest behind that study also? The funding comes from where it comes from, the science, when it is done correctly, cannot be changed, regardless of where the funding comes from. Have any of the anti-vaccine organizations funded any studies similar to those that ‘big pharma’ have funded, using independent researchers to review the data that is collected? Until they do and look at those results, there really is no justification in them claiming conflict of interest because of the funding source.

    Like

  78. September 16, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    @Lara – hasn’t there been at least two instances where anti-vaccine groups got involved in studies, then backed out at the last minute when the results weren’t what they wanted?

    Like

  79. Steve Michaels
    September 16, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    @Steve, you are free to be against anything you wish, just as we have the freedom to be pro anything. People also, unfortunately, have the freedom to spread lies and misinformation and try to pass it off as truth, many who do so in fact believe it, but that doesn’t make it true or accurate or real information.
    If you are truly pro-informed consent for vaccinations, then you should be willing to accept the scientific data that shows vaccines are effective at preventing disease with far fewer risks then the diseases themselves present. If you cannot accept the science behind it, then you are not about informed consent, but attempting to undermine science based medicine and convincing people misinformation and lies are true. Again, nobody is forcing anything on anyone, except accurate and complete information regarding vaccines so their decision will actually be informed, rather then misinformed.
    When it comes to scientific data, funding, for the most part, is irrelevant. If SafeMinds or Generation Rescue funded a study on vaccine safety and it showed what the studies funded by ‘big pharma’ show regarding them, would you accept that as true or would you look for conflict of interest behind that study also? The funding comes from where it comes from, the science, when it is done correctly, cannot be changed, regardless of where the funding comes from. Have any of the anti-vaccine organizations funded any studies similar to those that ‘big pharma’ have funded, using independent researchers to review the data that is collected? Until they do and look at those results, there really is no justification in them claiming conflict of interest because of the funding source.

    When I see scientific data that is trustworthy, I will trust it. As long as the ‘proof’ consist of concomitant, concurrent or comparative studies wherein ALL subjects and controls have received varying levels of the substances being studied or the placebos are biologically active instead of inert, the entire evidential foundation of vaccines is nothing but comparing Marlboro smokers to Camel smokers. In other words, worthless.

    Like

  80. lilady
    September 16, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    I smell dirty socks again…meg?

    Like

  81. Lara Lohne
    September 16, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    @Lawrence, there have been at least two, yes. But that is my point, until they do fund a study, and follow it to its conclusion and then release the results, they really can’t complain about the science being ‘tainted’ because of the funding source. If they can’t complete a study because it isn’t showing what they want, then it’s clear they really aren’t interested in the scientific data. Since science can’t support their claims, they continue to rely on nothing but anecdotes and misinformation. And yet they still scream about informed consent and get all offended when we try to do the same, saying we are trying to force people. If it’s not one angle, they will find another. Anyway, time to do dishes and then my son wants to go play outside. We have to take advantage of the sun while we can. Before too much longer it’s going to be gone for the next 9 – 10 months. Have a good day everyone!

    Like

  82. September 16, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    @Lilady – yes, meg is a cia parker sock puppet (meg, alyssa, cia, cia parker, cynthia, et. al.)

    @lara – I wish AoA & Generation Rescue would put their money where their mouth is. For all the talk, I have yet to see them actually engage with any scientific study or research group – and yes, the ones they tried to partner with, they themselves backed out when the results weren’t to their liking.

    If the anti-vaccine cranks can’t stand the heat of Science, they need to get out of the kitchen.

    Like

  83. September 16, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    @lilady & lara – I suggest you read of copy of Matt Tabibi’s book, “The Great Derangement.” It is very well researched book that goes into why, Americans in particular, gravitate towards fringe movements, conspiracy theories, and rejection of the mainstream. It explains a lot of where people like Steve are coming from & why they act like they do.

    Like

  84. lilady
    September 16, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Steve: Why don’t you admit you were clueless when you post this about Secondary Vaccine Failure…fully one day before you FINALLY came up with the definition and after I called you out on this post at # 46 before above:

    “Having been published in September 2012, my reference to the New England Journal of Medicine is more recent than your reference. In addition, the CDC has admitted that the current pertussis outbreak is due to a vaccine failure and not a failure to vaccinate.”

    Oh, and Steve, I hope you let the parents of all the children that your “special little snowflakes” come in contact with, that your “special little snowflakes” who are unvaccinated could be vectors of diseases.

    Like

  85. September 16, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    @lilady – I’m surprised that Steve would leave a country like the United States, where people get up in arms over Red Light Cameras, to live in the country like the UK, which banned all civilian firearms, put CCTV cameras on every single corner in London (and most major cities), and doesn’t even have a true “Bill of Rights,” not to mention a Socialized Medical system.

    Yet he complains about the minimal regulations that we have here…..sounds like he’s pointing his anger in the wrong direction to me – or at minimum, is extremely deluded.

    Like

  86. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    The doctor said she was normal, just delayed. I kept clinging to the hope that he was right, that she was just delayed. I kept saying to myself that she was happy and affectionate, not aloof and cold. If I could go back and do it again, there are a lot of things I would have done differently.

    Like

  87. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Law,
    The British adore their Public Health system, and riot when it’s threatened with radically changing it. We would adore it too, were we to have one. No worries about what insurance might or might not cover, nor about losing your insurance if you lose your job or can no longer keep up with the premiums. It’s what we will eventually have, or something similar, because it’s civilized to offer needed medical care to all your citizens. One hopes we will eventually move in the direction of all other First World countries in the world.

    Like

  88. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    GR did a study several years ago which found that conditions commonly associated with vaccine damage were much more common among the vaxed.

    Now, can you prove that the author of The Spunky Coconut is lying about her family’s conditions? She is going to a lot of trouble with her blog and cookbooks to cook in a way that is extremely difficult and limiting. She’s very popular now, because a large number of families are finding that their vaccine-damaged children improve on her diet and similar ones (GFCF, SCD, egg free, soy free, grain free, tree nut free, peanut free, or some combination of above, depending on the case). Would anyone be going to this trouble if they didn’t find it really helped a lot of people?

    Like

  89. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Law,
    I filed with the VAERS, I’d have to look in my file cabinet for the case number, but since you’d just dismiss it anyway, why go to the trouble?

    Like

  90. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    Mr. MIchaels:

    Are you thick or something? I have unequivocally stated that I receive ZERO compensation for anything I do here or anywhere else with regard to vaccines.

    And why should we believe you? Your veracity has been questioned multiple times. We have told you countless times we get no compensation, and the reasons we continually correct your misinformation. Many of us have seen injuries from the actual diseases. Like my son’s seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease.

    So, who is “thick” again?

    meg:

    GR did a study several years ago which found that conditions commonly associated with vaccine damage were much more common among the vaxed.

    Yes, that was a hilarious phone survey. Exactly what happens when you get business majors trying to do science, it is so cute!.

    meg, again (only with the proper website): what must you read and understand before using the VAERS database at its official website: http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ? Explain why it says “I have read and understand the preceding statement.” next to the button to use the database.

    Also, tell us which vaccines cause more seizures than the actual diseases. Just post the journal, title and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the DTaP causes more seizures than diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis. I have already posted a 2006 study that shows the DTwP did not increase encephalopathy. So I can assume you have something just as good from the Vaccine Safety Datalink.

    Like

  91. Steve Michaels
    September 16, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Steve – groups like Generation Rescue & AoA receive advertising dollars from bio-med organizations that push “treatments” for autism that they say are related to “vaccine damage.” If they didn’t push the party line that vaccines are to blame, these same advertisers would go elsewhere.
    If any of these groups published a single positive story on vaccines, they would also lose donation dollars from their base (heck, they won’t even admit that the rabies vaccine is a good thing).
    Wakefield is paid well in speaking fees & receives plenty of donations to his “defense” fund to continue his quest for martyrdom – despite having been proven to have a massive COI – two massive COI’s, actually – one, having taken over $750,000.00 from a British litigator who was in the process of suing the vaccine industry (before his Lancet Study) and also having registered both a patent and business plan for an alternative vaccine (again, before the Lancet Study).
    If you can’t see that the entire anti-vaccine movement is tainted from the top by people with a vested interest in keeping the dollars flowing, then you are an even bigger idiot than you have proven yourself to be.
    As for my own activities, I am nothing more than a concerned & educated parent – I combat the idiocy, lies, distortions and misinformation from people like you, so that parents make educated decisions based on actual facts, not the fiction that you try to spread. There is no need for a “balanced” discussion when all of the facts and evidence exist on a single side – I have as much respect for people like you as I have for 9-11 Truthers or NWO conspiracy theorists.
    I find Todd’s website (linked in my name) to be an excellent starting point to refuting the common anti-vaccine myths – since it contains what Steve can’t provide – actual evidence.

    It’s late here, so I’ll be brief and look at things a bit more in the morning, but you make so little sense that it is unreal.

    You think bio-med companies ‘push’ their treatments? They aren’t seeking and getting legislation to FORCE people to take their treatments. So who is the pusher? The one who advertises for free choice custom or the one who wants the law to force people to be ‘customers’?

    Why are you beating the Wakefield horse? He received $50,000 which was disclosed. The disclosure was denied but subsequently shown to have been made. In any event, the Royal Free, including Wakefield, have been cleared of fraud and the GMC chastised for their superficial and biased proceedings.

    The three largest industries in America are banking, the military industrial complex and the pharmaceutical/healthcare industries. If you can’t see that these industries use their financial power to use government to protect their interests then you truly are a fool. The so-called alternative health care industry is peanuts compared to pharma and you know it. It is a nonsense argument.

    I am glad you have chosen to use smears (or attempted smears) to defend your position. It again highlights the weakness of your arguments. By the way, trying to smear 9/11 truthers, as you call them, is really funny since well over half of Americans don’t buy the official story. Neither did the Indonesian government nor Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu. You have succeeded in insulting many people you are claiming to be ‘protecting’ from misinformation. The majority would say the YOU were the uninformed on in your chosen smear.

    Actually, I suspect that you may well be a sock puppet for Todd W. In that case, you have vested interests in promoting your cause.

    Like

  92. Steve Michaels
    September 16, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Oh, and if you wish to go beyond the scope of this forum, feel free to email me directly. I would welcome the opportunity to converse with you without your apparent need to posture for public consumption and without the constraints of the subject matter at hand on S of P. My name 1965 at g mail. I look forward to hearing from you.

    Like

  93. September 16, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    @Steve – and further down the rabbit hole you go. The health care industry in this country is one of the most heavily regulated industries on the planet – literally hundreds, if not thousands of treatments and drugs are discarded either by the manufacturers themselves before testing even starts, or fail during the decade or more of trials and testing that is required by the FDA.

    Not to mention the hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D that are “lost” because the trials are unsuccessful – for every drug or treatment that makes it to market, hundreds didn’t pass muster.

    That’s one huge reason my your “theories” don’t hold water. If the industry was as powerful as you claim, the regulations they face wouldn’t be so complicated and time-consuming.

    Actually, it is the “alternative health” industry that has been successful in quashing almost all attempts to regulate – they don’t have to conduct clinical trials, they don’t have to prove efficacy, heck, the worst they have to put up with is semi-regular inspections of their manufacturing facilities – but given the woeful budget issues around inspectors, we’ve seen huge problems in the supplement industry with “raw materials” from China that turn out to be toxic.

    So, instead of being put out of business, alternative and bio-med providers are given an almost free pass, while the Pharma & Health Care industry is required to spend huge sums of money actually proving that their products do what they say the do.

    As for Wakefield, again, you parrot the lies of his supporters – nope the actual amount he received was around 500,000 British Pounds, the GMC ruling against Wakefield still stands (regardless of what you think) – Walker-Smith had to throw Wakefield under the bus to get his judgement overturned, but if you haven’t read the trial transcripts & only get your information from AoA, maybe you didn’t realize that.

    If anything, Walker-Smith made Wakefield look worse, because he successfully claimed that he (Walker-Smith) didn’t realize Wakefield was using him for his study, instead, he was able to successfully convince the Judge that he was merely “treating” the children. Walker-Smith’s own attorney told the Judge that the matter of the Autism-MMR link was “settled Science” and not true.

    And no comments from you on Wakefield’s business plan to start his own Pharma company & offer an alternative vaccine? Know how many tens-of-millions of dollars he was projecting himself to be making, should he be successful?

    Man, you just get denser & denser. I do agree with lilady that our gain in you leaving the country was a loss for the UK.

    How do you like the ban on firearms, cameras on every corner, and the lack of a “Bill of Rights?” Seems to me, it is a lot easier for the British Government to take away the rights of British citizens than it ever would be here……

    As for everything else, again, it just proves that you are the poster-child for “The Great Derangement.” I think Matt Tabibi would love to interview you for a follow-up…..

    The only thing I gain by helping refute the likes of you, is hopefully showing how hollow and empty anti-vaccine arguments are – since they are so easily refuted. At the end of the day, I have no desire to see another generation have to face diseases for no purpose – and I’ll be the first person to ask for the removal of vaccines from the schedule, as soon as those diseases can be successfully eradicated from this planet.

    (And I still don’t know how you can square the idea of disease-eradication, with the notion of Big Pharma money – since less diseases, means less vaccines, which mean less money, right? – which I why we can point to anti-vaccinationists as a profit-making tool for pharma-companies & hospitals, who would make more money treating diseases than preventing them).

    Like

  94. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Chris,
    You didn’t say whether or not the study you cited was pharma-funded.

    Like

  95. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    meg, why should I? You can go find it on PubMed yourself. It is part of seeing if you can both find studies and think for yourself.

    I did tell you who did the study, and it is up to you to tell us if you consider a health insurance company is independent. Because if you think your health insurance is financed by a pharmaceutical company, I want to know what color the sky is on your planet.

    You might also define what you mean by “independent.” Because Mr Miller is neither an independent nor qualified researcher.

    Like

  96. September 16, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    @meg / cia / cia parker / cynthia / alyssa / et. al. – I will no longer be responding to sock puppets & I would recommend that everyone else do the same.

    Like

  97. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    She is also showing a lack of reading ability, and extreme rudeness by calling you “Law.” If she can type out several comments in a row, she can certainly type out “Lawrence.”

    Like

  98. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Law,
    Have you read Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s Make an Informed Vacciine Decision? or Vaccine Epidemic? You could not possibly say it was easy to refute anti-vaccine information if you had.

    And thank Heavens for herbal remedies. I take handfuls of sleep capsules every night to try to sleep, and several droppersful of kava kava. I was addicted to Xanax for several years, because the doctor who first prescribed it didn’t tell me it was highly addictive. The insomnia never went away, so he had no idea what to do. He thought it would be better to switch me to another drug in the same group than to worry about getting me off it. I went off myself cold turkey, went through the agonies of hell, I’ve read it’s harder to get off of than heroin. But the mercury poisoning from the vaccines has left me with permanent insomnia. I have no medical insurance, and doctors have nothing to help me anyway. But at least I can try to alternate among valerian, skullcap, passion flower, hops, ashwagandha, Deep Sleep, Sound Sleep, Night Caps, getting up every half hour to take another handful. Sometimes aurum muriaticum (it turns out it’s suited for treating mercury poisoning) seems to work, and sometimes it doesn’t. Last week my daughter had a cold: I gave her zinc lozenges, Vitamin C, echinacea, Sambucol, Umcka and other homeopathic combination cold remedies, that you would make it difficult or impossible for me to get. My blood pressure went down twenty points after I had been taking garlic/cayenne capsules for less than a week, and has stayed down, 110/70. Much better and safer than any allopathic blood pressure medication.

    I’m sure you’ve read about the large amounts of money Americans spend on alternative treatments and practitioners, and how impossible it has been to try to deprive us of them to drive us back into the allopathic fold. Why do you bother trying? You have nothing better to offer.

    Like

  99. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    C,
    I think Mr. Miller is qualified to have put together so many books packed with evidence on hundreds of differenct aspects of the vaccine question, thousands of scientific studies cited chapter and verse. I really don’t care if he’s independent, what would that mean in this area? Beholden to Gaia Herbs? Is there anyone making money working or writing in the area of vaccines that could not be described as having a conflict of interest? The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I have learned a tremendous amount from Mr. Miller’s books, substantive information backed by scientific studies. Combined with the dozens of other books I have read, and our personal experience, I have decided it would be in our best interest to never get another vaccine. I am very grateful to Mr. Miller for offering me the information I needed.

    Like

  100. meg
    September 16, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    And no, I don’t think health insurance companies are independent, they’ll be paying for results that will allow them to refuse reimbursement to the greatest degree possible.

    Like

  101. September 16, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    @Chris – trust me, if that’s the worst they can throw, I’m laughing.

    Again, I don’t address sock-puppets anymore. If it was refuted the first dozen times, I don’t feel the need to keep repeating myself & making her look even foolish.

    Like

  102. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    His name is not Law nor is it “Todd” and I resent you calling me “C.” You are being very rude. And I have already suggested that this website ban anyone who uses sock puppets.

    Now, again, produce actual scientific evidence to support your comments with actual scientific research done during this century that you feel is “more independent” than the one I have cited multiple times. And also explain why you do not like the results from the Vaccine Safety Datalink and the health insurance company. Include real references to explain your reasoning. No conspiracy theories.

    Mr. Miller is an unscrupulous journalist with absolutely no medical training. This is noted in how badly he and Mr. Goldman cherry picked and mucked up the statistics, along with not disclosing conflicts of interests in one of their recent papers. I have also shown you an analysis of his “ThinkTwice” website that showed he misrepresented several studies. From that page (because i know you don’t click on links):

    The lone study (not studies) was actually a single letter to the JAMA. A group of physicians asked if children had ever been diagnosed with asthma. Of 243 immunized against pertussis, 26 had been diagnosed with asthma. Of 203 not immunized, only 4 had been diagnosed with asthma. The obvious explanation is that children who do not get standard health care from a physician are less likely to get their asthma diagnosed.

    ThinkTwice doesn’t tell you about the follow-up. This report led to a study of almost 10,000 kids in England, No correlation whatever was found between having been immunized against pertussis and having had asthma (Br. Med. J. 318: 1173, 1999); another writer (Br. Med. J. 318: 193, 1999) cited scientific misconduct in a previous report alleging a connection.

    ThinkTwice isn’t telling something else. Among the 243 children in the immunized group, there had been one case of whooping cough. Among the 203 children who had not been immunized, 16 had already gotten whooping cough.

    Like

  103. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Well, I guess you are right Lawrence. She has shown that she is a liar by constantly changing her username, and by trusting an authority who has been shown to lie on several occasions. And she is quite rude by not answering questions, not reading the links, and by calling others by made up nicknames.

    Like

  104. September 16, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    @Chris – and I at least know my own name……

    Like

  105. m
    September 16, 2012 at 9:14 pm
  106. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    You know, ever morphing sock puppet, we don’t care much for AoA. It is not a reliable resource.

    Like

  107. Chris
    September 16, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    Besides, who am I supposed to blame for my son’s seizures? They were from actually getting an illness (before a vaccine was available).

    So, really, you need to tell us exactly which vaccine in the current American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease. Post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper with your evidence. And make sure it is a real study by those who are actually qualified: not a journalist with questionable veracity, a computer scientist, a lawyer or some business major. And not by anyone whose license to practice medicine has been suspended or revoked.

    (oh, and that article was terrible)

    Like

  108. lilady
    September 16, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    So Steve is a 9-11 Denier as well as being a crank anti-vaccine troll

    “I am glad you have chosen to use smears (or attempted smears) to defend your position. It again highlights the weakness of your arguments. By the way, trying to smear 9/11 truthers, as you call them, is really funny since well over half of Americans don’t buy the official story. Neither did the Indonesian government nor Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu. You have succeeded in insulting many people you are claiming to be ‘protecting’ from misinformation. The majority would say the YOU were the uninformed on in your chosen smear.”

    I just bet he’s a birther too.

    Chris, Lawrence: Just ignore CIA Parker/”m”

    How about some moderation here, to finally ban CIA Parker and all her sockies?

    Like

  109. Lara Lohne
    September 17, 2012 at 12:01 am

    @lilady, when I was blocked from commenting at AoA for being pro-vaccine, I didn’t change my name and keep going back. I just said “Good riddance” and moved on to find another site where I could get the support I was looking for. The site name, Age of Autism is highly misleading. It has nothing at all to do with autism, and everything to do with being anti-vaccine. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, how many states now have confirmed outbreak or epidemic of pertussis?

    Like

  110. lilady
    September 17, 2012 at 12:10 am

    @ Lara: You took a major risk posting anything on AoA. Some of them including a young journalist are stalkers. They have a history of going after science bloggers at their places of employment.

    Contrast this, with how Steve Michaels and the other cranks here, share their email addresses, totally unafraid that they will be stalked by any of us. Gee, I wish they really would contact each other and start their own pseudoscience/conspiracy blog…there’s always *room for more* on the internet.

    Like

  111. Lara Lohne
    September 17, 2012 at 2:05 am

    lilady, when I first found AoA, I didn’t know what they were about, autism was still very new in my life and I was naive, looking for information and support. I reached out for support from other parents of children with autism but the only discussions happening there were about vaccine damaged children. I assumed it was just an off topic rant and people were allowing their paranoia to get the better of them, so I posted something about being pro-vaccine, expecting that since the science had settles the issue months before, that would be accepted, and it was weird the way everyone united against me. There were horrible things said to me there and eventually I was blocked from posting anything else. When I went back a couple weeks later to show someone how rude and nasty everyone was, the majority of the icky comments had been removed. Well, I learned pretty quickly that just because a site has autism in the name, doesn’t mean they are about autism at all.

    Found this page: http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks.html and was wondering, with the chart showing the incidence of different states, if there is also report that corresponds to the amount of vaccinations in the states where the incidence has increased significantly? Anybody know?

    Like

  112. lilady
    September 17, 2012 at 2:32 am

    Lara: A recent MMWR reported vaccination rates state-by-state, for each of the recommended childhood vaccines…for younger children.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6135a1.htm?s_cid=mm6135a1_w#tab1

    Like

  113. meg
    September 17, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Lara,
    I just saw in an article by David Gorski, “The problem of waning pertussis immunity,” that he thinks that the DTaP is very effective at preventing pertussis in children between six months and five years. That means that you don’t have to have the full series before being highly protected, according to the conventional mistaken opinion, which he shares.

    Like

  114. meg
    September 17, 2012 at 10:42 am

    “Delay in DPT vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood asthma,” McDonald KL, et al, Manitoba, Canada. J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2008 Mar;121(3):626-31.

    Amont 11,531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma was reduced to 1/2 in children whose first dose of DPT was delayed by more than 2 months.

    Like

  115. meg
  116. meg
    September 17, 2012 at 10:52 am

    The above is a study that found the DPT more than doubled risk of asthma and allergies, which have more than doubled in the last few decades.

    Like

  117. lilady
    September 17, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Meg: You didn’t read the entire blog posted by Dr. Gorski. I have just written to Dr. Gorski for a clarification of that one paragraph which “appears” to state that babies are protected at 6 months of age with one or two DTaP shots….they aren’t.

    Here is the abstract for the article referred to, by Dr. Gorski:

    Unexpectedly Limited Durability of Immunity Following Acellular Pertussis Vaccination in Pre-Adolescents in a North American Outbreak

    Clin Infect Dis. 2012 Jun;54(12):1730-5. Epub 2012 Mar 15.
    Unexpectedly limited durability of immunity following acellular pertussis vaccination in preadolescents in a North American outbreak.
    Witt MA, Katz PH, Witt DJ.

    Source

    Department of Infectious Diseases, Kaiser Permanente Medical Center, 99 Montecillo Rd, San Rafael, CA 94903, USA. David.J.Witt@kp.org
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Despite widespread childhood vaccination against Bordetella pertussis, disease remains prevalent. It has been suggested that acellular vaccine may be less effective than previously believed. During a large outbreak, we examined the incidence of pertussis and effectiveness of vaccination in a well-vaccinated, well-defined community.
    METHODS:

    Our center provides care to 135 000 patients, 40% of the population of Marin County, California. A total of 171 patients tested positive for B. pertussis from 1 March to 31 October 2010 by polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Electronic medical records were reviewed for demographic characteristics and vaccination status.
    RESULTS:

    We identified 171 cases of clinical pertussis, 132 of which were in pediatric patients. There was a notable increase in cases among patients aged 8-12 years. The rate of testing peaked among infants but remained relatively constant across ages until 12 years. The rate of positive tests was low for ages 0-6 years and increased among preadolescents, peaking among those aged 12 years. The vaccination rate among PCR-positive preadolescents were approximately equal to that of controls. The vaccine effectiveness was 41%, 24%, and 79% for children aged 2-7 years, 8-12 years, 13-18 years, respectively.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Our data suggests that the current schedule of acellular pertussis vaccine doses is insufficient to prevent outbreaks of pertussis. We noted a markedly increased rate of disease from ages 8-12 years, proportionate to the interval since the last scheduled vaccine. Stable rates of testing ruled out selection bias. The possibility of earlier or more numerous booster doses of acellular pertussis vaccine either as part of routine immunization or for outbreak control should be entertained.

    Like

  118. meg
    September 17, 2012 at 11:56 am

    They have had three DTaP shots at six months if they got the recommended vaccines at 2, 4, and 6 months, but I agree that it’s very common not to be protected no matter how many vaxes you get.

    Like

  119. lilady
    September 17, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    meg…Six month old children “may” have gotten their 3rd DTaP vaccine at 6 months of age…if they are infected with pertussis and show symptoms of pertussis at 6 months of age…they have only had the protection of two DTaP vaccines. Read Dr. Gorski’s entire article here:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-problem-of-waning-pertussis-immunity/

    Read the full abstract that I posted above at # 125:

    Why did you cherry-pick Dr. Gorski’s article?

    Why are you providing one article published in 2008 but with a birth cohort of children born 17 years ago in 1995? It simply is not germane to what is being discussed here, namely the gap in protective coverage for children who have received all five DTaP vaccines by age 4-6 years old and the high numbers of children (and adults) who experience Secondary Vaccine Failure, also known as waning immunity, thereafter.

    Do try to stay on topic…the discussion is about booster Tdap vaccine, now recommended at 11 years of age and now recommended for a one time booster for adults of all ages.

    Like

  120. Chris
    September 17, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    I suggest everyone read that entire article, not just the one cherry picked paragraph. And note how it ends:

    Still, although this is good, it is not nearly good enough. We can do better. Contrary to what antivaccinationists tell us, recent outbreaks of pertussis do not mean that vaccines don’t work. They do, however, mean that we probably need to develop a new vaccine that overcomes the shortcomings of the existing DTaP. In the meantime, it also suggests that we need to use the vaccine we have better, perhaps through earlier and more frequent doses, until we have a new vaccine.

    Like

  121. lilady
    September 17, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Gee Chris, How Dr. Gorski concluded his blog…covers exactly what we stated up thread about Secondary Vaccine Failure (waning immunity) AND “In the meantime, it also suggests that we need to use the vaccine we have better, perhaps through earlier and more frequent doses, until we have a new vaccine.”

    3-2-1 CIA Parker tries another yet another ‘nym.

    Like

  122. Kate
    September 18, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Thank you for this post and for all of the comments. As an infectious disease epidmiologist who works for a state health department, I have investigated several hundred pertussis cases over the past six years. I have spoken with parents of children with pertussis who vaccinate and those who do not. They both have two things in common: they want to do what is best for their adored children, and their children got a very serious disease. While I am very familiar the research (credible and not) on vaccines and fully endorse the vaccination schedule and guidelines, I understand that parents have access to so much information that can be scary and overwhelming. It is a hard decision for many parents, and we must all be sympathetic to this. However, I also know well the consequenses of not vaccinating, and every fatal case of an infectious disease for which a vaccine is available breaks my heart. This is not a difficult job, but I do it because if just one family decides to vaccinate and one death (or severe complication) is averted, we are all better for it. Although the current pertussis vaccines are less effective (and safer) than previous versions, they still offer protection (if they didn’t, we would see MANY more cases and deaths). In addition, the vaccine offers another benefit: those who are vaccinated often experience less severe symptoms than those who are not vaccinated. I have investigated cases in infants who stopped breathing, turned blue, had to be resusitated at home by a parent, had long-lasting complications, were hospitalized and intubated for weeks, and worse. I have investigated cases in adolescents and adults who have cracked ribs, broken blood vessels in the face and eyes, missed school/work/social activities for weeks, developed pneumonia, and who passed the infection to others including infant family members and friends. While many people with pertussis experience an annoying cough and then fully recover (and fail to understand why this is a serious disease and why the vaccine is so important), it is simply this: the severe or fatal cases got it from someone…maybe you. It takes a village, and if we all do our part, we can all be life savers.

    Like

  123. lilady
    September 18, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    @ Kate: I too worked in public health, as a public health nurse/epidemiologist in a large County health department, division of communicable diseases control, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases.

    As you can see, by perusing the posts, we have had some *lively* discussions about the DTaP and Tdap vaccines.

    Unfortunately, we have also been infested with some trolls and a troll who morphs into different sock puppets. Please don’t their posts discourage you from posting here…we need more intelligent knowledgeable posters who are well versed in the sciences, immunology and VPDs.

    Like

  124. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    Kate,
    Unfortunately, if you are the parent of a vaccine injured child, you’ll receive no love here. If you don’t have a citation for anything you would like to talk about – forget it. These people truly do not care about children; they want to make it complicated and argue instead of having open conversations and discussions.

    Like

  125. Lara Lohne
    September 18, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    @Joe, you offend me, and every other parent here by saying we don’t care about children. We do care about children and deplore watching them suffer. That is why we attempt to correct the misinformation spread by anti-vaccine groups and their members. We are all well aware that vaccines do have risks of injury, but serious injury from vaccines is by far less then injury and death from the diseases they prevent.

    You claim your son was damaged by a vaccine and that his damage is autism. And yet study after study has shown there is no link between vaccines and the development of autism, and more and more research is showing the cause is genetic (did you know just a week ago researchers in Australia reported they have found a genetic blood test which can predict autism in nearly 72% of people who have already been diagnosed? Its reliability is influenced by racial genetic differences, but it is the first step in being able to predict and/or diagnose autism at birth or in early infancy.)

    Regardless of all the data we have provided to you in an attempt to show the information you are spreading is not correct, you continue to cling to your misconceptions as if they were your right to believe like religion is. When it comes to science, there is right, and there is wrong, and every study done to date has shown you to be wrong; vaccines do not cause autism. This is not an argument, but an attempt to re-educate with correct information. If you choose to ignore the data we provide you, and continue to spread misinformation, you are the one ‘arguing’ not us.

    Like

  126. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Kate….see my point.

    Like

  127. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    @Lara
    You offend me by saying you care for children. You only care for whatever suits your views best and not the whole truth. Why would I believe any study you throw my way when I have experienced the complete opposite? Do you think I care about your studies when I know they are not accurate? Does that make any sense to you? Please keep providing data Lara because guess what, that data is worthless to me. If you truly cared about children you would be open to the possibilities instead of trying to convince me that my son was not injured by a vaccine and that the vaccine did not trigger his Autism.

    Like

  128. September 18, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    @Joe – since you are not open to the possibility that vaccines did not cause your son’s Autism, it is disingenuous (not to mention hypocritical) to expect us to give you “special dispensation” & just accept what you say to be true (with no evidence provided).

    We provide actual studies & research that show no link between autism & vaccines – you, on the other hand, provide an n=1 sample, which is anecdotal at best and a complete fabrication at worst.

    Like

  129. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Joe, do you believe you are incapable of error?

    Like

  130. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    @Law
    I am open to all of the possibilities…that is why we are still testing and learning every day. Guess what….the more we learn about my Son’s specific circumstances the more it leads to the vaccine as the smoking gun. That’s the difference between you and me, I am still seeking the truth and you choose to put all of the eggs in a few studies. I am not the one saying “this” and “that” is not possible. You are.

    I don’t expect “special dispensation” and for you only to take my word for it. What I do expect is a little respect and conversation about the topic. We are all human beings and if you are seriously interested in learning more about it, you should be listening to the parents who have vaccine injured children.

    There is nothing but bad attitudes and big egos on the site.

    Like

  131. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Gray,
    You’ve asked the same question before….we’ve down this road.

    Like

  132. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Joe, I’m confused. Are you saying I should believe you or that I shouldn’t believe you?

    Like

  133. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    Joe :
    Gray,
    You’ve asked the same question before….we’ve down this road.

    And you keep trying to turn back. Joe, do you believe you are incapable of error?

    Like

  134. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    So sorry you are confused Gray.
    Are you incapable of error?

    Like

  135. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Joe, I know I am capable of error, that’s what scientific methodology is for. Now, are you incapable of error?

    Like

  136. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    I’ll play your game Gray…..when I say I am open to all possibilites and am looking for the truth…that is a fact. Not sure what that has to do with me making errors.

    Like

  137. Lara Lohne
    September 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    @Joe, do you really believe I haven’t looked into the other side, for lack of a better term, of where autism comes from? Do you really believe that I don’t know how all encompassing and emotionally consuming the anti-vaccine stance is? It is not I that am not open to all possibilities, because I have looked at all sides, with a logical mind. You don’t. You cling to the most unlikely because it suits your views.

    Here’s a theory. I’ve tested many times over that span of my life; a person will accuse another of their own sins/faults before themselves. I keep this idea in mind anytime I am researching anything new. It helps me keep things in check and helps to keep me as impartial as possible when reading new information, regardless of the source.

    There are people who have suffered a vaccine reaction, but there are not people who have gotten autism from vaccines, the link you imagine to be there simply isn’t. However, there are many, many more people who have been damaged or killed by disease, you don’t seem interested in their struggles or pain, nor in preventing the same things from continuing to happen in new generations of children when they absolutely don”t have to. Now, who doesn’t care about children? All children, not just the ones I know personally, but all of them.

    P.S. personal perspective can be unreliable, particularly when you want something to be because of a certain thing. This is why my older sister believes that she saved my younger sister from strangling to death on our slide when she was a baby rather then me alerting my mom to the fact that she was stuck, turning blue and I couldn’t get her down (I wasn’t even 4 yet) and my older sister wasn’t even at home when this happened, yet she still remembers it way she states it. This is also why for disorders like autism, we need to rely on what science finds for us rather then our own observations, because we are not able to see what happens inside a person’s body during a vaccination, nor can we see how the genes are working prenatally to form our baby’s developing brain. What you take for a vaccine injury, science shows us is from gene mutation. I’ve directed you to research regarding this and you refuse to even look at it. By the way, did you know researchers in Australia have found a genetic blood test that can predict ASD in nearly 72% of individuals who were diagnosed with an ASD? It varies by ethnicity and the genetic differences relating to that, but they are very close to developing a blood test that can be given at birth or in infancy that will predict, quite accurately, whether a child will develop autism or not. Open your mind, Joe. What will you do when it’s found that your son’s autism is genetic? It can’t be both ways, it’s either genetic, or it isn’t, there are not two sides of the street here.

    Like

  138. Joe
    September 18, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    @Lara
    I have always maintained and stated that my son had GENETIC predispostions.

    Like

  139. Lawrence
    September 18, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    @Joe – and what would those be and by what biological mechanism would vaccines have anything to do with it?

    Like

  140. Lara Lohne
    September 18, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    @Joe, there is no such thing as genetic predispositions to autism. It is either there, or it is not. There are over 300 genes that have been shown to play a role in the development of autism. Some are contributory and others are protective, none of them are influenced at all, in any way, shape or form, by vaccines. That is just the bottom line. Your son was bon with autism. Vaccines have nothing to do with it.

    Like

  141. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Joe :
    I’ll play your game Gray…..when I say I am open to all possibilites and am looking for the truth…that is a fact. Not sure what that has to do with me making errors.

    Joe, are you open to the possibility that you are mistaken?

    Like

  142. September 19, 2012 at 5:43 am

    @Mr M – who is spouting dogma here? The people who have examined the evidence, research, facts & studies, which show the lack of a viable biological mechanism for vaccines to cause autism, population studies that show no increased risk of autism amongst vaccinated individuals, or that consistently refute links between vaccine components & the rise in autism rates (like Thimersol, for example) – or the people that claim that it is and will always be vaccines to blame for autism?

    I always find it interesting, that no matter what the topic – anti-vaccine cranks will always put the blame squarely on vaccines (suicides in the military, SIDS, teenage angst, etc). Talk about a one-track mind, they have no interest in taking a look at any other potential causes or issues, because they’ve already made up their minds.

    Again Mr M – who is the one wrapped in dogma? It certainly isn’t us – because we will actually examine and re-evaluate should new credible evidence be presented. In your case, I doubt anything would change your mind……and that’s the problem, not that we can easily and quickly refute, over and over again, the standard anti-vaccine lies (and we have) – it is that the cranks will never, ever listen.

    Like

  143. September 19, 2012 at 5:45 am

    @lara, GF & Chris – did you see the latest whopper at AoA regarding the Amish? Once again, they are trying to claim that there is no Amish autism, except for those that vaccinate (which I guess is a small change to their stance from the direct lies of no Amish autism).

    How do they ignore, not only the autism, but the fact that the Amish in general have a larger percentage, population-wise of developmental delays and other genetic illnesses, due to their smaller gene pool?

    That’s dogma for ya, I guess.

    Like

  144. Lara Lohne
    September 19, 2012 at 7:14 am

    @Mr. M, you say I am spouting dogma, yet I read all the new research studies regarding autism that are released. There are some that I’ve read, over the past two and a half years since my son was diagnosed, that were really silly, but I still read them and I weigh all the evidence against itself. That isn’t a belief, that is the reality of what science is showing more and more; that autism is genetic and whether or not a child will have autism was determined prior to their birth.

    Just because the obvious signs don’t begin to manifest until a child enters their language development stage doesn’t mean there aren’t subtle, easily written off signs prior to the onset of the more obvious ones. Autism is so much more then a language issue also, but typically that is the first warning sign, when a child should be speaking but isn’t. In my son, he had those little subtle signs from birth. I was aware of them because I raised 5 neurotypical children before him. A first time parent wouldn’t necessarily be able to pick up on them. How many anti-vaccine parents with children with autism are first time parents? They don’t have any experience to compare to with a normal child. I can understand the need to find a culprit for it and a very convenient one is vaccines. But wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true. And when science shows otherwise and a parent still clings to their desired culprit, that is dogma, not science.

    @Lawrence, I’ve not really ever gone back to AoA since the one time I visited and was treated so disgustingly by the commenters there. I should go back from time to time I suppose, but usually RI will post something about it and I’ll get the highlights there.

    Like

  145. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 8:29 am

    Mr M :
    It is clear that a dogmatic view cannot be objectively assessed by an equally dogmatic fool. Dogma is a belief system. It does not lend itself to evidentiary scrutiny. To claim that science is A: omniscient and B: infallible is dogmatic idiocy taken to the extreme. The fact that you defend it shows either intellectual dishonesty or utter stupidity. Which is it?

    We never claimed science to be either, only that it reduces that chances of error significantly. Now, if you dislike science, why are you using a computer? That was made using science, not someone shouting on the Internet.

    Like

  146. Lara Lohne
    September 19, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    P.S. Mr. M, I am not a ‘vaccine injury denier’ as you say, by the way. I am just satisfied that science has shown that autism is not caused by vaccines. There’s a big difference there. I also know that vaccines do not cause a great number of the injuries that anti-vaccine groups and activists claim they do. Science shows us those claims are great exaggeration at best, and major fabrication at worst.

    Here is the big difference between them and me: I grew up anti-vaccine, believed all the dogma surrounding the belief system of the anti-vaccine movement (vaccines cause illness, people die from vaccines all the time, it’s a government plot to make us and keep us all sick, etc.) but there were parts, even as a teenager, that just didn’t quite fit together as well as I was led to believe they did. I still followed it, spouted it out like a pro, but then when I was expecting my first child, I got scared, walked myself every day to the library, and read research and reference books regarding vaccines and the diseases they prevent and that was where I found pieces that fit together.

    It was still hard to let go of the anti-vaccine sentiment, it felt like betrayal and as though I was abandoning people I cared about by turning my back on what was such a significant part of my life growing up. I’ve been there, and I can tell you what, leaving the anti-vaccine ideals behind was a lot tougher then when I had a strong scientific based belief due to what science had found so far on a certain topic and then newer research showed that scientific data was incorrect and had to leave that behind. There are times now when I still find myself greatly pulled in by anti-vaccine statements, from an emotional standpoint. But logically, I know those statements are not true, and the fact that so much data exists showing the statements aren’t true and anti-vaccine activists refuse to accept it, angers me to a degree. When one uses science as their support system, one doesn’t have to rely on intuition and faith or mere personal conviction that you know something is a certain way (even when all the evidence shows otherwise.) The anti-vaccine movement is not about informed consent as they claim, for them it is a popularity contest and they are not winning and it has them all riled up.

    Like

  147. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    @Lara

    You say……” It is not I that am not open to all possibilities, because I have looked at all sides, with a logical mind. You don’t. You cling to the most unlikely because it suits your views. “

    You are not open to all of the possibilities; you have already stated that Vaccines cannot trigger Autism. I don’t cling to anything that “suits my needs”….I seek the truth and the trail lead me to vaccines.

    You say…..” Here’s a theory. I’ve tested many times over that span of my life; a person will accuse another of their own sins/faults before themselves.”

    The only thing I accused you of was not being open to the possibilities, and you just stated yourself that you are not, when you say…..”there is no connection between vaccines and Autism.”

    You say…..” personal perspective can be unreliable, particularly when you want something to be because of a certain thing.”

    This is not only my personal perspective but that of many medical professionals that work with us. Also, I have gone to medical conferences to learn as much as possible in regards to the latest research and studies. I came to my conclusions after attending such conferences based on the work presented to me.

    You say…..” What will you do when it’s found that your son’s autism is genetic? It can’t be both ways, it’s either genetic, or it isn’t, there are not two sides of the street here.”

    This may be your most ridiculous statement yet. It’s black or white huh? It can’t be a combination of genetics and environmental factors? Funny, because even my son’s genetic tests show that he cannot deplete toxins out of his body like most of us can. Hmmmm wonder what toxins may be trapped in his body and his brain? Hmmmm wonder what toxin tests show are trapped? Hmmmm wonder what happens to my son when we treat such toxins?

    I must be out of my mind Lara, me and the rest of the medical team, and the labs, and the tests, and the biomedical treatments, and his recovery; all in my head.

    Again you say…..” Joe, there is no such thing as genetic predispositions to autism. It is either there, or it is not. There are over 300 genes that have been shown to play a role in the development of autism. Some are contributory and others are protective, none of them are influenced at all, in any way, shape or form, by vaccines. That is just the bottom line. Your son was born with autism. Vaccines have nothing to do with it.”

    I thought you were open to the possibilities? And by the way, you really should get your research out so that it will help all of us; since you know for sure what you say is a definite.

    Please Lara….just go to one medical conference on Autism and then come back and talk to me.

    Like

  148. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Joe, have you considered the possibility that you are in error?

    Like

  149. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    @Gray
    Already told you, open to all possibilites leading to the truth. There is no stronger evidence…. from the reaction to the vaccine itself, the quick regression following the reaction, the toxicology tests, the treatments based on such tests, the recovery, the MD’s, the conferences, etc…. if you have a better explanation feel free to chime in.

    Like

  150. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Already told you, open to all possibilites leading to the truth. There is no stronger evidence…. from the reaction to the vaccine itself, the quick regression following the reaction, the toxicology tests, the treatments based on such tests, the recovery, the MD’s, the conferences, etc…. if you have a better explanation feel free to chime in.

    Coincidence.

    Like

  151. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Oh, and if you’re talking about toxicology tests, we need to know where and how they were done. You may be surprised to hear this, but there are frauds out there.

    Like

  152. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    @Gray
    Hilarious! You are hilarious! Grasping at anything…..guess what? The proof is in the pudding my friend. We don’t have a one stop shop of scam artists we’re working with….these are many independent medical professionals. Coincidence? I actually laughed out loud. Come walk in my shoes for a while and then tell me it is all just one big coincidence.

    Like

  153. September 19, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    @Joe – I’ve actually attended a number of autism conferences. Conferences attended by credible health care professionals and researchers who don’t discuss things like Chelation, Chemical Castration or Bleaching autism out of children with MMS.

    These real autism conferences deal with the latest research in genetics, fetal & brain development & how these markers are becoming more and more distinct in helping to identify those with autism at earlier ages (or even in the womb) – which allow for earlier interventions and real therapies that increase the chances of these children living very happy and productive lives.

    Real autism research is light years ahead of the tired old “vaccine” argument. If you actually looked at the most recent literature and actually understood what is being researched, discussed, and tested currently, you’d see exactly how antiquated your arguments are….I’m sorry that you are stuck in your rut & being used by cranks who are getting paid to tell you exactly what you want to hear.

    @Mr. M – Sorry, but for very obvious reasons your Hannah Poling argument is invalid & tiresome.

    I could turn around your statement regarding Lara’s story & say the exact same thing about anti-vaccine parents, that they are grasping at the only straw they have, that it must have been the “evil vaccines” because otherwise, if they accept the genetic proof of autism, they would have to accept responsibility – since it was their contributed genes that caused their child to develop autism.

    Again, the same tired old anti-vaccine arguments.

    Like

  154. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    @Law
    Sounds like the same type of conferences I have attended….not sure which ones you are talking about, but never been to one like you mentioned. You should know then, that many trails lead down to toxic-overload.

    Like

  155. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Hilarious! You are hilarious! Grasping at anything…..guess what? The proof is in the pudding my friend. We don’t have a one stop shop of scam artists we’re working with….these are many independent medical professionals. Coincidence? I actually laughed out loud. Come walk in my shoes for a while and then tell me it is all just one big coincidence.

    Joe, if we used your standards of evidence, we would still be hunting witches and bloodletting. We need more than just one case of correlation.

    Like

  156. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    @Gray
    Give me something better. I don’t see your long line of “coincidences”?

    BTW….I am part of a 100 person group with people from 26 different countries and we all have the same “coincidences” taking place.

    Get in the trenches,,,then you’ll see what is happening. Be part of the soultion Gray…..quit being a nay-sayer and do something.

    Like

  157. September 19, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @Mr M – besides your demeaning attitude (which I’ve already alerted the blog host about), there has been no “huge” increase in autism over the past 30 years – there has been an increase in diagnosis and a wider screen (since autism is not one single syndrome, but actually a whole spectrum of disorders) – and a recent survey in the UK showed that autism occurs in approximately 1% of the 50 – 60 year olds that were surveyed, adults that were never diagnosed originally, but would now fall under the current autism guidelines.

    Care to also explain why the percentage of children diagnosed as “mentally challenged” has declined at almost the same rate as the percentage of autism diagnoses has increased? Could it be diagnostic substitution maybe?

    Also, you claim there was no autism before the 1940s? There is plenty of historical evidence that there was lots of autistic people – we just didn’t call them that, we had a lot of other words for them, and plenty of places where those individuals were locked away & not talked about…..

    So, get your facts straight, because you’re nothing but a tired anti-vaccine crank, spewing the same old debunked anti-vaccine lies.

    Like

  158. September 19, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    @Joe – self-selection bias?

    I could put together 100 people from 26 countries with Cancer – and I don’t automatically assume that any one factor was the cause in all cases.

    Like

  159. September 19, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @Joe – we are part of the solution. The solution in getting people really educated, as opposed to some emotional appeal based on a n=1 sample.

    Like

  160. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Give me something better. I don’t see your long line of “coincidences”?
    BTW….I am part of a 100 person group with people from 26 different countries and we all have the same “coincidences” taking place.
    Get in the trenches,,,then you’ll see what is happening. Be part of the soultion Gray…..quit being a nay-sayer and do something.

    The regression has been seen in unvaccinated children. The recovery has been seen in children not given your treatments. Thus, it is entirely possible we are looking at 100 cases of coincidences.

    Like

  161. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    @Law
    “Self Selection Bias”? You don’t even know what the 100 person group is for. It was not related to vaccines, biomedical treatments, etc. and in fact the only common denominator was Autism and therapy…. but again….more “coincidences” of 100 people from different countries around the world…with the same story. Who could have thunk it? Hmmmmm

    Like

  162. September 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    @ Joe – 100 people out of 7 Billion…..really?

    Like

  163. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    @Gray
    Yes Gray possible….very unlikely, but possible.

    it is more likely that vaccines are not safe and along with other environmental factors cause toxic-overload. That is very, very possible. 🙂

    Like

  164. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Yes Gray possible….very unlikely, but possible.
    it is more likely that vaccines are not safe and along with other environmental factors cause toxic-overload. That is very, very possible.

    No it isn’t. If the amount in a vaccine could cause “toxic overload”, we’d all be dead. There’s more formaldehyde in the human body than in most vaccines, for example.

    Like

  165. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    @Law
    Huh? That’s only 100 I know personally in one group. I know other’s, and I’m sure my friend network doesn’t extend out to 7 billion. I mean, I have a lot of friends, but that would be nuts!

    Like

  166. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    @Gray
    So much to learn my friend….you can deplete toxins, my son can’t. Take those toxins and put them with other toxins and you are in trouble. So Naive…..

    Like

  167. September 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    @Mr M – oncologists would disagree with you. There are several Cancers that can be cured now & treatments have gotten exponentially better over time…..for a real discussion on Cancer, perhaps you should check out:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/09/06/the-real-way-to-prevent-cancer/

    And in the latest measles outbreak in France, over 25% of those afflicted required hospitalization….given the current costs of hospital stays, do you honestly expect us to believe that treatment is less expensive than prevention?

    Like

  168. Lara Lohne
    September 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    @Mr. M, as I have already stated, there were misquotes in my story, which I did not correct at the time because the basic story was the same; my son was not vaccinated prior to showing signs of autism. He did not receive hep b at birth due to being jaundiced. He had his 2, 4 and 6 months vaccines, but was already manifesting subtle signs of being not normal. Again, it wasn’t until 2010, through conversations with a co-worker that I learned about the vaccine autism link, and at that time my son was already diagnosed with autism. I didn’t ever state my son had never received vaccines, I’ve said he was showing signs of autism prior to receiving any, there is a big difference between the two. Vaccines didn’t damage my son because my son is not damaged and you saying so is insulting to everyone who has an ASD because I’m sure most of them don’t see themselves as damaged either.

    I did not ‘rebel’ against my upbringing, there were just things about what I was raised to believe that over the years didn’t fit together. It left me confused and uncertain and I didn’t want to begin my family not knowing. I wanted to learn the truth and for that I turned to science while I was expecting my first child. I learned the truth about the protection that vaccines provide and the significant risks to contracting the diseases they prevent. I’ve stated it was hard to leave the anti-vaccine way of life behind because it felt like betrayal and there was anger at my mother for putting us all at risk by not vaccinating us when we were children and for instilling in us the hysteria that is the anti-vaccine way of life. It made me angry when I learned the truth, it wasn’t anger that made me rebel. Think what you will, twist my words all you like, cherry pick things that have been taken out of context or misquoted all you like. Since it happened to my son and I was there to witness exactly what happened, I can correct you all you like. It doesn’t bother me one bit.

    @Joe, I’m assuming these autism conferences you go to are Autism One conferences. Why don’t I go? Well, I don’t live in Chicago for a start, I don’t have a car, and I am primary carer for an adult with mental disabilities (possibly an ASD at the core) and a child with autism. These conferences generally cost a significant amount of money, are you going to pay my fees to attend? Nobody else would either, but don’t worry, I do read the articles that are released from lectures at these conferences and there is no science at all behind the lectures given at Autism One conferences.

    If you attend IMFAR, you are obviously not picking up on anything they are talking about, or you would know about all the genetic research that has been done and what they have found, confirmed, known genetic causes for autism. Autism One is not about autism, it is about selling biomed treatments which do not work to rewrite the pathways in the brain that are at the core of autistic traits and behaviors. Those pathways are determined by genes, and those genes were present prior to birth and vaccines do not influence them.

    I believe your medical team has told you what you want to hear and continue to do so because they are making a bundle off you for the ‘remedies’ they push promising you a cure for autism. So how long has your son been undergoing these cures? Does he still have autism or has he been cured? You say he’s made progress, so has my son, because a person with autism will progress, even without any treatment. Given the proper treatment they will progress significantly faster then without. Autism is not a biological disorder, it is neurological and the treatments that work require retraining the brain on how to do things. Treating yeast will not make autism go away. If you say he has this toxic over load thing caused by genes, then I submit he doesn’t have autism. Autism has nothing to do with toxins.

    Like

  169. Chris
    September 19, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Mr. Michaels, who is “Lars”? Is there some posts from someone I cannot see?

    Like

  170. September 19, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @Chris – I knew exactly who that was….again, just shows his outright dishonesty.

    Like

  171. Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    So much to learn my friend….you can deplete toxins, my son can’t. Take those toxins and put them with other toxins and you are in trouble. So Naive…..

    If your son could not deplete toxins, he’d be dead.

    Like

  172. Chris
    September 19, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    So, Lawrence, is him not knowing how to spell your name is just another “mispeak”?

    Like

  173. Lara Lohne
    September 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    See what you like Steve, it makes no matter to me. If you bothered to read down in the comments section in part two of my story, you will see I did make a correction to a misquote. Therefore your statement that “at NO point did you claim ‘misquotes’ until your lies were revealed.” is, in fact, false. Nothing dubious about it on my part. And since I haven’t ever lied, your statement is a personal attack.

    By the way, it really shows your maturity level when you must stoop to calling a person stupid when you are unable to deny their statements of fact. For the record, I am not on the autism spectrum, but I show certain autistic tendencies. My older five children have a different father then my youngest and we suspect, with the knowledge we have learned about autism since my son’s diagnosis, that his father may fall somewhere on the spectrum. It’s very difficult to find someone who will provide adult evaluations for ASD where we live. Regardless, It is quite likely that with my autistic tendencies, and my partner’s more obvious autistic symptoms, that our genes combined created our son. He isn’t damaged, he is how he was meant to be. He’s loving, affectionate, funny like you wouldn’t believe, so smart and his thought processes are so abstract it astounds me. He is sincere in everything he does and everything he says, even if most or the time he is saying things out of routine or echoing back what he’s heard other people say to him, as he has echolalia. He is loved and anyone who meets him falls instantly in love with him and can tell he is significantly happy. He has challenges, but as he grows they become less and less. He has friends now, which is not something I could have said a year ago. He has a very bright future, and I have great faith in him as a person. You can’t take that from him just because you want him to be vaccine damaged, he is who he is and has been who he is since birth.

    Personally, your presence here has become abhorrent to me. You aren’t about vaccine safety, disease prevention and eventual eradication, you aren’t even anti-vaccine, you are a conspiracy monger and have no business commenting about something you have no knowledge or experience in. The more sock puppets you make, the more and more dishonest and immature you will appear. Keep it up, bring it on, we love it when you guys prove our point for us.

    Like

  174. Lara Lohne
    September 19, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Oh, by the way, Steve, there is a difference between being misquoted and me misspeaking. Just thought I’d point that out.

    Like

  175. Chris
    September 19, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Mr. Michaels:

    Oh dear Lara, how many times has Chris and Kelly and Nathan tried to claim that everything I say is rubbish due to ‘mispeaks’?

    Actually you making broad claims with basic errors shows a pattern of lack of familiarity with the real science, and a general unwillingness to learn. You also do not provide proper cites, and when you do you have completely misread the literature. Usually by cherry picking one bit, while ignoring the whole message. Plus you have a way of refusing to answer questions because you claim the are “wrong questions”, and provide general hand waving with dubious conspiracy claims.

    Now all you have to do is convince us that the DTaP and Tdap vaccines are actually more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. But you need to do that by following some basic rules in regards to scientific evidence. This means that the data needs to be clear and robust. Not self selected surveys or random anecdotes, and have a good number of data points.

    Like

  176. September 19, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    Mr M :
    There is no genetic drift in recorded history that could possibly account for the HUGE rise in autism over the last 10 years. Is it ‘exclusively’ vaccines? Probably not. Are vaccines contributory? Most definitely. So is diet, environmental toxins, antibiotic overusage and myriad other factors. Now that HPV is being pushed so hard, let’s see how those autism numbers go up over the next few years. Pretty soon the majority of children will be incompetent wards of the state and fools like you will claim it is just ‘better diagnosis’. Autism was UNHEARD of before 1940.
    So Laws, how many preceding generations of Lara’s family had autism? Genetic disorders do not just simultaneously appear across all populations. I suspect that Lara might be autistic, but that is my polite way of saying ‘stupid’.

    Interesting use of the word “stupid”. If you are so worried about more children with autism, why are you so hating towards them?

    But, beside that…

    Care to cite a peer-reviewed study where the HPV vaccine, given WAAAAAAY after autism signs and symptoms would show, causes autism?

    Finally, give us your definition of prevalence. Let’s point out where you’ve gone horribly wrong.

    Like

  177. Chris
    September 19, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    I would also suggest to Mr. Michaels, Mr. M, M, and others that if they truly wish to be helpful that they provide valid suggestions on how to keep children from getting pertussis. Provide a plan with data that it is actually possible.

    Like

  178. Joe
    September 19, 2012 at 11:57 pm

    @Lara
    You state……. “there is no science at all behind the lectures given at Autism One conferences. “

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from making such an idiotic statement until you have attended the conference. There are so many scientists at the conference that you can’t walk down the hall without bumping into one. The conference is 7 days long and you sign up for classes starting from 7 am and usually going through 7 pm every day. My wife and I split up so we can learn more, and we hit about 50 different classes when we go. Choose a topic and you can find it….these are NOT people out to get vaccines contrary to what you think. Do you know how silly of a statement that is…..please don’t comment on what you don’t know about. It makes you look really bad.

    You state……”I believe your medical team has told you what you want to hear and continue to do so because they are making a bundle off you for the ‘remedies’ they push promising you a cure for autism. So how long has your son been undergoing these cures? Does he still have autism or has he been cured? You say he’s made progress, so has my son, because a person with autism will progress, even without any treatment. Given the proper treatment they will progress significantly faster then without. Autism is not a biological disorder, it is neurological and the treatments that work require retraining the brain on how to do things. Treating yeast will not make autism go away. If you say he has this toxic over load thing caused by genes, then I submit he doesn’t have autism. Autism has nothing to do with toxins.”

    My Medical Team has not told me anything I want to hear, I have no agenda except to get him healthy….we work with MD’s and they are covered by our insurance. They make no extra money on biomedical treatments we have done. We did what anybody does…..go to the Doc to see what they can do. They start off doing all kinds of blood work, urine, stool samples etc…. and then treat what needs to be treated. What does your Doctor do? These kinds of things are what any good Doc would do. It’s sad that you are in such denial and won’t open up to things that may benefit your son. If I had to put a percentage on it, I would say my son is 95% recovered in approx 2 years of treatments.

    And you say this….. “Autism is not a biological disorder, it is neurological and the treatments that work require retraining the brain on how to do things.”

    You are correct about the brain, but you are forgetting about the body. Ever heard of the gut-brain connection? That’s one example of biology affecting neurology. Ever been drunk? What happened….you drank something; it went into your gut and then affected your brain? Say what??

    Like

  179. Lara Lohne
    September 20, 2012 at 12:36 am

    @joe, blood work, urine and stool samples will not tell you anything about autism. It can only be diagnosed through behavioral observations and questionnaires filled out by parents relating to the child’s development. If your son had to have all these things done to determine he has autism, then your doctors are not very experienced in diagnosing autism. If all that testing was necessary to diagnose your son, then I again submit that he doesn’t have autism.

    What has my son’s doctor done for my son? Which one? He has his pediatrician, who treats him for physical ailments, which so far he’s only had to go in yearly for his annual check up and to make sure his vaccines are current. His occupational therapist helps him with his sensory issues by making him touch different textures, uses deep pressure playing techniques and gross and fine motor training. His speech therapist works with him on his speech. He can get across what he wants well enough for those who understand him, but to someone who doesn’t know, if they heard him saying, “Do you want some drink of water?” they would probably not realize he is asking for a drink for himself, not asking them if they want one. He has trouble with enunciation of certain consonants also. She works with him on this. He has an audiologist to make sure his hearing is functioning correctly. His social play therapist teaches him how to pretend play and play with others, teaches me how to play with him so we can do it at home on our own, which will in turn help him learn how to interact in social situations. His optometrist checks his eyes annually so if it’s discovered he needs corrective lenses, we can nip that in the bud as quickly as possible. His child developmental psychiatrist monitors his behavioral patterns to find out if there are new stressors in his life that he may be unable to vocalize. He has a developmental pediatrician who acts as a secondary medical doctor and liaison to his regular pediatrician to keep him abreast on the reports of his progress from all his other doctors as well as making sure he is sleeping well, checking his diet is not too restrictive and that his prescription for diapers stays current. And his developmental pediatric dentist checks his teeth every three months to make sure they are healthy, and to give him a cleaning. He did have blood work done to rule out Fragile X Syndrome and any other potential known genetic anomalies that could present as autism, but no blood testing was done in the diagnostic process. The genetic testing came after his diagnosis was made. Basically, there is no physical/medical cause for his autism, other then the normal, genetics involved in it.

    Are you really comparing autism to being drunk? All I can say to that is wow…

    Like

  180. Christine Vara
    September 20, 2012 at 12:48 am

    We apologize that this comment thread may be difficult to follow. Numerous comments have been removed. We would like to take a moment to remind all our participants to please refrain from personal attacks, vulgar and abusive language and offensive terms. We have been very lenient in our interpretation of these rules, however due to the repeated offenses of some participants, we have had to exercise our right to prohibit people from participating on this blog. We still hope to be able to facilitate an ongoing dialogue about vaccine issues, but we must insist that everyone be respectful of one another. Thank you.

    Like

  181. End Censorship
    September 20, 2012 at 3:27 am

    I have been following this site for some time and don’t bother posting but enjoy reading the banter between the opposing points of view. I would have to say, honestly, that while some of them the deleted posts did question other participants’ integrity and mental capacity, most of them were simply surprising sharp critiques of the views that have been allowed to remain. It looks more like the interpretation of the rules is being used as a form of censorship of powerful dissenting views than being worried about abusive or offensive language.

    I am sorely disappointed that this site is no longer tolerant of opposing views. A sad day for open debate.

    Like

  182. Lara Lohne
    September 20, 2012 at 4:11 am

    There is a big difference between strong, opposing views and calling someone stupid, among other things as well. I’ve been called much worse throughout my life, even by family members, so it doesn’t bother me too much. What bothers me is that it is used in an attempt to color what I’ve said in a bad light, by coloring me, as a person, in a bad light, when what I have said is nothing that science hasn’t already said before. It’s a personal attack on me, not any kind of critique on what I’ve said. That is what we call a strawman. It is the personal attack that got deleted, and had nothing to do with his opposing view. Joe is still here and he has a strong opposing view as well. He hasn’t been disrespectful though, nor has he insulted anyone who has a a view different then his own. He also hasn’t resorted to using sock puppets as the others have.

    Like

  183. Christine Vara
    September 20, 2012 at 7:54 am

    End censorship, if you have been following along for the past two years or even the past two weeks than I’m sure it is clear that we do allow for open debate. We have been extremely tolerant of everyone as people have continued to push the limits of the comment policy and people on both sides of this issue have had their comments removed. However, the decision has been made to block repeat offenders in order to preserve the integrity of our open forum. When those offenders return to mock others in total disregard for the policies, we have chosen to exercise our right to not only remove their offensive comments, but remove everything after the initial attempt was made to block them. If people want to insist on ignoring the rules we have tried to establish for a productive open forum, than they should no longer be allowed to participate on any level. That is our administrative decision, made in an attempt to facilitate participation from a larger, more diverse audience that can be respectful in their attempts to share opinions and information. We certainly hope people will appreciate and understand the efforts we are making to facilitate an inclusive dialogue. Thank you.

    Like

  184. lilady
    September 20, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Thanks sincerely, Christine for your intervention.

    Like

  185. End Censorship
    September 20, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Christine, I have gone back and reviewed threads dating back to March of this year and to be honest I see you point from people on both sides of the proverbial divide. Just as a matter curiosity, how many pro and against have you banned then? Since there were transgressions on both sides of the aisle, I am assuming that you have banned ALL of them. Is this accurate?

    Like

  186. lilady
    September 20, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Before or if Christine replies, I would like to make this statement.

    I have been following this blog for quite a long time and I and others on this blog post under ‘nyms that are consistently and uniquely ours.

    If you think about the few that have been banned…they continually come back here, defiantly posting under their same ‘nym…perhaps they are getting around the ban by using a different IP address. The *many* others that you seem to question the banning of, are sockpuppets, which is patently dishonest and devious.

    What you call “banter” is not “banter” IMO. The sockpuppets and the few who have been banned resort to thread derailing tactics, personal attacks and insults. They want to destroy the integrity of this blog and drive away posters, who want to have discussions and who rely on this blog and the posters, to provide reliable information about vaccines and the diseases they prevent.

    Like

  187. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    @Lilady
    If you are talking about the likes of myself, Cia and Steve Michaels….I completely disagree with you. I have only been posting here for a short time, but the comments I have seen from them are credible and have merit. I have not seen any personal attacks from them that are any worse than I have received myself from a few of you. Cia speaks from the heart, I speak from the heart and Steve is full of lots of interesting and beneficial information. I have been blocked two times without reason. I sent SOP emails complaining about personal attacks on me, trying to keep up the integrity of this site and I never heard a word back, nor were any of the offenders blocked.

    Like

  188. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    @Lara
    I believe in treating the whole body and I also believe in treating the route cause and not just using band aids for a temporary fix.

    Like

  189. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    Joe :
    @Lara
    I believe in treating the whole body and I also believe in treating the route cause and not just using band aids for a temporary fix.

    I believe in actual evidence, not just correlation.

    Like

  190. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    End Censorship:

    Christine, I have gone back and reviewed threads dating back to March of this year and to be honest I see you point from people on both sides of the proverbial divide.

    Perhaps you can provide some constructive commentary on how to prevent pertussis in children. What would be your plan to keep children from getting sick. Please include some evidence that your suggestions would actually work. Thank you.

    Like

  191. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    @Gray
    Come spend some time with me and my family and you will be convinced. There is far too much correlation to be a coincidence and far too many professionals, tests, treatments, recovery, etc…to all be a big coincidence. Why is it all so hard to believe….I’m not talking about science fiction and science doesn’t have all of the answers. What we have been doing is logical, makes sense, and works! I really don’t understand the denial. You’d all think that I am telling you some outrageous science fiction story, when in reality, it is all very simple and logical.

    Like

  192. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Come spend some time with me and my family and you will be convinced. There is far too much correlation to be a coincidence and far too many professionals, tests, treatments, recovery, etc…to all be a big coincidence. Why is it all so hard to believe….I’m not talking about science fiction and science doesn’t have all of the answers. What we have been doing is logical, makes sense, and works! I really don’t understand the denial. You’d all think that I am telling you some outrageous science fiction story, when in reality, it is all very simple and logical.

    For a long time, bloodletting was thought of as logical and making sense. I need evidence, not slogans.

    Like

  193. Lara Lohne
    September 20, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    @Joe, when a child is healthy, strong, growing and bounding with energy, what part of his body do you feel would need treating? My son doesn’t suffer from physical ailments, he doesn’t even have bowel issues, which I realize are common in children with autism. He doesn’t need a special diet because he has no food sensitivities. He self restricts his own diet because there are textures he is not able to tolerate and it’s a struggle for me to try and figure out how to give him a varied diet to ensure he is getting enough micronutrients. My biggest worry about his physical health is malnutrition.

    The root cause of autism is genetics so I’m curious how you are treating your son’s genetic differences? Do you have him going through stem cell injections attempting to rewrite and reconstruct the changes in his brain made by the genes he was born with? Perhaps your son has physical, co-morbid disorders that discomfort from may exacerbate his autistic behaviors. They aren’t the cause, but it is true that treating those co-morbid conditions to alleviate pain and discomfort in an attempt to produce an environment where the child can learn and be more aware of the world around them because they aren’t constantly overwhelmed by pain is beneficial. Sure, I can see that, but those conditions are not the root cause of autism, they exist along side autism and must be treated separately. Even after treating them, autism still exists. It requires it’s own separate treatment, otherwise you are ignoring the most important part in your son: his brain, and that is the root cause of autism.

    Like

  194. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    @Gray
    As I have said before, believe what you will. I can’t prove it to you unless you actually spend time with my family. And btw the types of things I’m talking about are….getting rid of over-growth of Candida, killing off clostridium, healing leaky gut, getting rid of allergies, balancing out gaba and glutamates, etc….all very logical as if you had issues with any of those, you would take care of them as well. I know….crazy, crazy, stuff isn’t it?

    Like

  195. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    @Lara
    I can’t help you as you already know all of the answers and won’t open your mind up to any of the possibilities.

    Like

  196. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Joe:

    Come spend some time with me and my family and you will be convinced.

    You forget many of us live with children who have disabilities. My son is an adult who has been in and out of hospitals due to illnesses as a toddler, and now more recently for his genetic heart condition.

    Perhaps you should try a new tactic: like data and evidence.

    Perhaps you can tell us your plan to prevent pertussis in children. Because no one should have to deal with a child who has trouble breathing. Thank you.

    Like

  197. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    As I have said before, believe what you will. I can’t prove it to you unless you actually spend time with my family. And btw the types of things I’m talking about are….getting rid of over-growth of Candida, killing off clostridium, healing leaky gut, getting rid of allergies, balancing out gaba and glutamates, etc….all very logical as if you had issues with any of those, you would take care of them as well. I know….crazy, crazy, stuff isn’t it?

    Bloodletting was considered logical at one time, in that the “four humors” needed to be balanced out. I don’t need “logical”, I need evidence.

    Like

  198. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Gray,
    if you are sick with any of those issues….you won’t need eveidence of solutions that may help, you’ll want to do something about it, believe me.

    Like

  199. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    Joe :
    Gray,
    if you are sick with any of those issues….you won’t need eveidence of solutions that may help, you’ll want to do something about it, believe me.

    That’s a big if. Do you have any evidence that those issues exist in the first place? Then, do you have evidence that your given treatments work? Again, you give the same evidence used to justify bloodletting.

    Like

  200. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    @Gray
    Yes, physical evidence/symptoms and lab tests to confirm.
    Yes, evidence the treatments work – because physical symptoms dissipate and lab confirmation.
    This is silly Gray.

    Like

  201. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Yes, physical evidence/symptoms and lab tests to confirm.
    Yes, evidence the treatments work – because physical symptoms dissipate and lab confirmation.
    This is silly Gray.

    Do you have proof that those symptoms are caused by what you say cause them? Do you have proof that the lab results are accurate and honest? Do you have evidence that the physical symptoms dissipated because of the treatment? This is not silly. People used to say “After leeching him, the fever dissipated. Clearly, the leeching removed the fever.”

    Like

  202. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    @Gray
    This is silly….now you want proof that the many lab tests we have done are accurate….then you will want proof that the proof that the lab tests are accurate are accurate….and so on and so on and so on…..how about ridiculous instead of silly.

    Like

  203. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    This is silly….now you want proof that the many lab tests we have done are accurate….then you will want proof that the proof that the lab tests are accurate are accurate….and so on and so on and so on…..how about ridiculous instead of silly.

    Did you know that there are fraudulent labs out there? This isn’t ridiculous, this is common sense.

    Like

  204. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    @Gray
    Pleae be rest assured we haven’t used any fraudulent labs for our testing. We used a few different labs and much of the lab work has been done through IHC….do you think they have an agenda and/or fraudulent?

    Like

  205. End Censorship
    September 20, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    End Censorship:

    ” Christine, I have gone back and reviewed threads dating back to March of this year and to be honest I see you point from people on both sides of the proverbial divide.

    Perhaps you can provide some constructive commentary on how to prevent pertussis in children. What would be your plan to keep children from getting sick. Please include some evidence that your suggestions would actually work. Thank you.”

    Chris I have stated my position and asked Christine a valid question. Why are you trying to drag me into your argument. I did not come here to argue. I read all of the comments and make up my own mind. I don’t need to argue the points to draw my own conclusions. The fact that you seem to be trying to pick a fight with me for no reason is odd.

    Like

  206. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    I’m sorry. I did not know that asking you how you would prevent pertussis in children, which is what the topic of the above article is about, would be considered an “argument.”

    I can assume that you do not have an idea on how to prevent pertussis in children. That is useful to know. Thank you.

    Like

  207. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Pleae be rest assured we haven’t used any fraudulent labs for our testing. We used a few different labs and much of the lab work has been done through IHC….do you think they have an agenda and/or fraudulent?

    Seeing as I have no idea who IHC are, that may very well be the case. Of course, it might simply be that the doctors you are using are telling you that normal results are actually dangerous. Now, could you please answer a question for me. If you son cannot “deplete toxins”, why isn’t he on dialysis?

    Like

  208. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    @Gray
    Now you want to go round and round with another off topic?

    Like

  209. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Now you want to go round and round with another off topic?

    It’s a critical question. You keep saying toxins in the vaccines made your son autistic, you need to provide evidence. It’s as simple as that.

    Like

  210. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    @Gray
    I have provided my story and my evidence to you. If you are asking about toxins found in vaccines and other environmental factors and if my son has high counts of those in his system….the answer is yes.

    Like

  211. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Joe, how would you protect children from the toxin, a protein-based AB5-type exotoxin, created by the bacterium Bordetella pertussis? Tell us your plan with citations to real medical literature showing that it can actually work. Thank you.

    Like

  212. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Hi Chris,

    I have no idea…but luckily it’s not my job to figure out a safe and effective way to do it.

    Like

  213. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Yes, but it is the topic of this article. Have you read it? Do you have any ideas? Perhaps you can tell us what toxins are more dangerous than the ones created by the bacteria that cause diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Especially since tetanospasmin is considered the second most deadly toxin after botulism.

    Like

  214. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Joe :
    Hi Chris,
    I have no idea…but luckily it’s not my job to figure out a safe and effective way to do it.

    That means you admit that it’s safer to use the vaccine.

    Like

  215. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    @Chris
    Yes…the topic of the article is keeping kids safe….which is why when I state that vaccines aren’t safe for everybody…it is right on with topic. My advice is to educate yourself and then make your own decisions based on those associated risks because there is no perfect solution.

    Like

  216. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    @Gray
    Not sure how you come up with that answer, but for the record, again, I don’t believe vaccine’s are safe and my youngest daughter is not vaccinated.

    Like

  217. End Censorship
    September 20, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Chris :
    I’m sorry. I did not know that asking you how you would prevent pertussis in children, which is what the topic of the above article is about, would be considered an “argument.”
    I can assume that you do not have an idea on how to prevent pertussis in children. That is useful to know. Thank you.

    Wow! You really seem keen to pick a fight. Why are you so angry?

    Like

  218. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Not sure how you come up with that answer, but for the record, again, I don’t believe vaccine’s are safe and my youngest daughter is not vaccinated.

    And if she gets whooping cough, what will you do?

    Like

  219. lilady
    September 20, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    End Censorship…Did you have anything to add to the comments here…aside from your unwarranted accusations that there is censorship here?

    And, anyone who has followed this blog for months as you claim, and considers the thread derailing tactics, the vile comments and accusations hurled at posters here, as “banter”, needs to look up the definition of “banter”. While your are looking up that definition, try looking up “defamation”, “internet trolls” and “sock puppets”.

    Like

  220. End Censorship
    September 20, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    lilady :
    End Censorship…Did you have anything to add to the comments here…aside from your unwarranted accusations that there is censorship here?
    And, anyone who has followed this blog for months as you claim, and considers the thread derailing tactics, the vile comments and accusations hurled at posters here, as “banter”, needs to look up the definition of “banter”. While your are looking up that definition, try looking up “defamation”, “internet trolls” and “sock puppets”.

    I have asked Christine a fair question which is yet to be answered. Meanwhile I am being attacked and met with anger and offensive comments from Chris and now you. The reason I asked the question of Christine is because I have seen these activities from people on both sides of the issues that this site covers. I am curious as to how many pro and against have been removed for this behavior. I am beginning to believe that it is only one side because here I am not even arguing and all I am getting is nastiness from people I haven’t even spoken to. Even more incredible is that you are doing this when I have not even stated an opinion. If I didn’t know better, I would say that you have assumed that I disagree with you and you are trying to bait me into an argument.

    Like

  221. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    @Gray
    And what would I do if I made the mistake of giving her the vaccine and it triggered Autism? Especially with my family history? That’s why it comes down to choice….I choose not to risk the vaccine and choose to do what I can to keep her healthy and her immune system strong so that if she did get whooping cough, she could fight it off quickly. We are waiting for genetic results on my daughter, so that will tell a bigger story of her genetics and health.

    Like

  222. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Joe, what will you do if your daughter gets whooping cough?

    Like

  223. September 20, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    @Joe – how old is your daughter again? Since the signs of autism are pretty distinct as early as one year, if she doesn’t have the signs by now (if she’s say two or three) then she isn’t going to get it.

    That’s another thing I don’t understand – if you have a 4 or 5 year old, who’s fine – why wouldn’t you get them vaccinated, since they are well outside the so-called “regressive age?”

    Like

  224. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    @Gray
    And what would I do if I made the mistake of giving her the vaccine and it triggered Autism? Especially with my family history? That’s why it comes down to choice….I choose not to risk the vaccine and choose to do what I can to keep her healthy and her immune system strong so that if she did get whooping cough, she could fight it off quickly. We are waiting for genetic results on my daughter, so that will tell a bigger story of her genetics and health.

    Like

  225. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Joe, if keeping your child healthy and her “immune system strong” (whatever that means) were enough protect her, then why have so many children died of whooping cough?

    Like

  226. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    @Law
    My daughter turned two in June….my son was approx the same age (27 months) when it happened and we had been spreading out his vaccines. Also, if my daughter turns out not to be able to purge toxins very well either….then vaccinating her would not be good. We already have other environmental factors to be concerned about. Once we get her genetic tests back we will know more. And I think you are right in the fact, the older they are, the better, stronger immune system is in place.

    Like

  227. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    @Gray
    Whatever that means? Please don’t be so coy. How many children have had whooping cough that did not die? That’s why it’s important to do as much as you can to keep healthy. You’re going to be way better off if you are healthy and fighting something, then if you are not healthy…..that’s just a fact.

    Like

  228. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Whatever that means? Please don’t be so coy.

    I’m not being coy. That same phrase could easily refer to immunization. Words need to be defined clearly for communication to take place.

    How many children have had whooping cough that did not die?

    Several, but the odds are much better if you immunize.

    That’s why it’s important to do as much as you can to keep healthy. You’re going to be way better off if you are healthy and fighting something, then if you are not healthy…..that’s just a fact.

    Any evidence for that? And don’t try to substitute arrogance this time. “Common sense” is what tells us the Earth is flat.

    Like

  229. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Good day Gray

    Like

  230. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Joe, I’ll tell you this now. When you say things like “You’re going to be way better off if you are healthy and fighting something, then if you are not healthy…..that’s just a fact,” you don’t come across as being intelligent and honest, you come across as manipulative. Rather than trying to convince us with evidence, you try to force us into line with meaningless words.

    Like

  231. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    @Gray
    Have you ever heard of just having a conversation with somebody? Try it…..and if you choose to believe having a weakened immune system is helpful in fighting off infections and such, I am not going to argue with you and/or convince you otherwise. Have at it Gray.

    Like

  232. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Once again, you act manipulatively, Joe. I never said anything suggesting that I “choose to believe having a weakened immune system is helpful in fighting off infections and such”. You simply declared that you “strengthen the immune system” without explaining what that means, how it works, or what evidence you have that it works. This is not a conversation, this is rhetorical combat.

    Like

  233. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    @Gray
    I make a simple comment that having a strong immune system is good and healthy and then you ask me to prove it.

    Let’s see, here’s another one….. your quote from your very last comment…….
    ” You simply declared that “strengthen the immune system” without explaining what that means, how it works, or what evidence you have that it works.”

    So you see, you are asking for eveidence that it works, so that makes me think you do not believe having a healthy immune system is beneficial….otherwise, you wouldn’t be asking me for evidence that it is.

    Like

  234. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Let me clarify. Joe, you haven’t proved what you’re doing strengthens the immune system, you merely asserted it as fact. That is what I asked you to prove. Insist that I said otherwise at your own peril.

    Like

  235. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    @Gray
    Here is my exact statement….”I choose not to risk the vaccine and choose to do what I can to keep her healthy and her immune system strong so that if she did get whooping cough, she could fight it off quickly.”
    I didn’t say anyhting about what we do to keep her healthy and immune system strong. So what was it that you want evidence of again?
    This conversation is so far off the topic and I can’t figure out what your motive is except just to be a contrarian when anything that comes up. It isn’t useful for me or good use of my time to argue with you about what does or does not strengthen the immune system and then debate it. If you truly would like my help with some things to help you strengthen your immune system, we can talk about it off of this site.

    Like

  236. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Joe, I want to be sure your daughter is getting the best care possible. I can’t know if you refuse to share knowledge with me.

    Like

  237. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    @Gray
    Thank you for your concern….she is in good hands.

    Like

  238. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Gray, if you have information you would like to share with me about keeping her healthy and things that will keep her immune system strong….I am all ears my friend.

    Like

  239. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Joe :
    Gray, if you have information you would like to share with me about keeping her healthy and things that will keep her immune system strong….I am all ears my friend.

    Well, there is the pertussis vaccine, which has been shown to be extremely effective in reducing the chance of the disease, and has far lower chances of side effects than the risks of the disease itself.

    Like

  240. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Touché Gray…..but you know I’m not going down that road.

    Like

  241. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    So what should I do to protect my loved ones? If you want me to have an open mind, give me something to open my mind to!

    Like

  242. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Funny Gray…I’m not going down that road with you….you are too much of a contrarian and I don’t have time to provide proof to you about anything we do to keep healthy.

    Like

  243. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Joe:

    Yes…the topic of the article is keeping kids safe….which is why when I state that vaccines aren’t safe for everybody…it is right on with topic.

    That is why there are listed reasons for some to not get the DTaP vaccine:

    In certain circumstances, vaccination with DTaP vaccine should be delayed until a child with a known or suspected neurologic condition has been evaluated, treatment initiated, and the condition stabilized. These conditions include the presence of an evolving neurologic disorder (e.g., uncontrolled epilepsy, infantile spasms, and progressive encephalopathy), a history of seizures that has not been evaluated, or a neurologic event that occurs between doses of pertussis vaccine.

    Now have you made it less likely for yourself to get pertussis and pass on to your children by getting a Tdap? Have you had a tetanus booster in the last ten years?

    End Censorship, you are not making any sense. I asked you a simple question and you did not know the answer. That does not make me angry, it just makes me disappointed that you did not have a way to protect children from pertussis.

    Like

  244. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    You seem to have plenty of time to post your story. I’m not being a contrarian, I’m asking for information. Your refusal to provide it leaves me wondering about your honesty.

    Like

  245. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    @Gray
    My refusal to tell you what we do to keep our family healthy leaves you wondering about my honesty? Hello…is there any logic in there Gray? You are a contrarian and you will ask for proof/evidence of every single thing that I tell you. So as I told you, I don’t have time to waste going down that path with you. I choose not too. If you think that makes me dishonest so be it. I think of it as keeping my sanity. Good day Gray.

    Like

  246. Nathan
    September 20, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    Joe, when you make a claim (my child developed autism from vaccines) that goes against the overwhelming medical literature and medical consensus and (vaccines do not increase a child’s risk of autism), then it is not silly (or ridiculous) to ask for verification of your claim. Now, I doubt anyone really expects you to produce your child’s medical record, that is your private information. So, a published case report of your child (because a proven case of autism caused by vaccines would indeed be publication-worthy) or the link to your successful claim for compensation in vaccine court would be reasonable publicly-available substitutes.

    If you don’t have these, then you probably should actually make an argument based on verifiable evidence from the literature, because your unverifiable claims are not evidence.

    I have no idea…but luckily it’s not my job to figure out a safe and effective way to do it.

    And yet you believe your judgment regarding the safety of vaccines is superior to the judgment of those who actually have that job. You are trying to have it both ways.

    Like

  247. Joe
    September 20, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    @Nathan
    On the contrary Nathan….I said it’s not my job to figure out a safe an effective way….that means I don’t know how to make a safe and effective vaccine that works wells and is safe for everybody. That means…..I do not believe vaccines are safe and I don’t jave the solution. You think that is having it both ways?

    Like

  248. Chris
    September 20, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Joe:

    That means…..I do not believe vaccines are safe and I don’t jave the solution.

    Then please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. All three of these diseases produce real toxins that hurt children. So you are making claims that the vaccines are not safe and have toxins, so you must provide real evidence to support those claims.

    Please provide real evidence and not your own personal anecdote, or papers written by those who have had their medical licenses revoked or are not qualified in biological research (like lawyers, those with Masters in Business Administration, journalists or computer scientists).

    Like

  249. lilady
    September 20, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    I’m seem to recall asking you Joe, which laboratory tests did your child’s doctor order to determine that he had toxins in his system. What were those tests Joe. Also which laboratory tests were performed on your child to monitor the effectiveness of the treatments that your child underwent, to remove those toxins?

    Like

  250. September 20, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    @lilady – another good question would be – what qualifies as a “toxin” since in almost all cases, it is about dose, not the material itself that’s toxic.

    Like

  251. September 20, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    @lilady – also “toxins” is usually quack-code for whatever scary name they can put towards something (like formaldehyde, for instance) to make people think it is some horrible substance that would kill someone in any quantity.

    Formaldehyde is my favorite, since it exists in larger quantities in our bodies through natural metabolic processes than someone would get in all vaccines combined.

    Like

  252. lilady
    September 20, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    Yes Lawrence, but I’m waiting for Joe to reply about the toxins, about the biomedical treatments to remove the toxins, which laboratory tests were ordered to determine that his child had toxins and the labs used to determine if the biomedical treatments were *working*. He hasn’t as yet replied.

    IIRC I also asked him if he has filed a claim for what he reports as a vaccine injury.

    As you know Lawrence, the Vaccine Court has a much lower burden of proof than a civil court when you sue for a tort. The Special Masters in the Vaccine Court would want to see the proof that Joe’s child had toxicity and would be posing those same questions to Joe, during the hearing.

    Like

  253. Nathan
    September 21, 2012 at 1:22 am

    I do not believe vaccines are safe and I don’t jave the solution. You think that is having it both ways?

    Yes. You think you know more about vaccine safety than the experts, yet you apparently know enough to have as good of an alternative than the experts. So, why are you arguing against the experts, exactly?

    Like

  254. September 21, 2012 at 5:39 am

    @Nathan – don’t you know, all of the experts are in the pocketbook of the corporations (lol) – having working with both the government & in a corporate environment, I can tell you, that these people who think that either the government is capable of orchestrating a massive cover-up, or keeping secrets (at all) or that corporations are these monolithic, all-powerful organizations who can keep straight, what would be numerous activities (globe-spanning) that aren’t part of their core function, aren’t profit centers, and certainly wouldn’t be productive areas of “business” (i.e. all of the people who would need to be hired to run and organization this, again, globe-spanning conspiracy), are completed deluded.

    The government can barely make a single decision without someone running to the WSJ or Washington Post to leak information, much less even fight wars effectively – what makes anyone think that all of a sudden, government would be completely efficient when it came to a “vaccine-autism cover-up?”

    Also, corporations have trouble just keeping their business units straight and hitting quarterly revenue targets – they don’t have the time or quite frankly, the money, to just hire a bunch of people who’s full time job it would be to keep the hundreds of thousands of people in line across the world that would need to suppress all the so-called “evidence.”

    And trying to herd an entire industry in one direction? Really, it would be like herding cats. Regular Pharma companies are in cut-throat competition with Generic Pharma – much less that they are also in direct competition with each other. Again, where is the time, energy and money for them to coordinate such a massive effort……

    It’s Occam’s Razor people – the larger the organization or organizations involved in anything, the harder it is to get anything done……and again, I point out that if Big Pharma was really as powerful as you say, why do they still subject themselves to massive regulatory oversight, involving hundreds of millions of dollars spent on R&D, decade or more of clinical trials, and post-release surveillance for decades more?

    All of this to get one drug to market, where they might have had to put 100 through the process, only to abandon them somewhere along the way, since they aren’t up to snuff and don’t pass. If Big Pharma was that big, do you really think these regulations would still exist?

    Come on people, this is common sense stuff.

    Like

  255. End Censorship
    September 21, 2012 at 6:03 am

    Chris :

    End Censorship, you are not making any sense. I asked you a simple question and you did not know the answer. That does not make me angry, it just makes me disappointed that you did not have a way to protect children from pertussis.

    I am still waiting for Christine’s reply. How many from each side have had posts removed and/or been banned from the site?

    Chris, you have asked me a question and then demanded that any information I may give you be strictly to your own very tight notion of what evidence means. That is baiting. You then took my refusal to take your bait as some weird sort of proof that I have no answers and somehow I “don’t know.” And another poster has basically called me dumb by suggesting that I look up the definition of a bunch of simple words that appear to be personally attacking. I’m not saying that she was using those words to attack me, but rather she has used those words to attack others and yet she is still posting. Do you see my point?

    I have not given any view or taken any position with regard to what you are asking for because this principal of open debate is so important. I understand that to keep on subject, pertussis is the topic here, but no fair discussion is possible unless it can be assured that the views being published are not being skewed by banning people from one side only when both sides have obviously been breaking the rules.

    Like

  256. September 21, 2012 at 6:07 am

    @End Censorship – can you point to specific instances, because I can certainly point to multiple cases were personal attacks were directed at individuals here for no reason, what so ever & they weren’t coming from people arguing for vaccines.

    But I did see multiple instances of where people’s outright dishonesty was pointed out & backed up with proof…there is a difference.

    Like

  257. lilady
    September 21, 2012 at 8:36 am

    Here is my exact statement:

    End Censorship…Did you have anything to add to the comments here…aside from your unwarranted accusations that there is censorship here?

    And, anyone who has followed this blog for months as you claim, and considers the thread derailing tactics, the vile comments and accusations hurled at posters here, as “banter”, needs to look up the definition of “banter”. While your are looking up that definition, try looking up “defamation”, “internet trolls” and “sock puppets”.

    This is not a playroom where we are playing semantics. I have nothing further to say to you and you are now on my “Ignore list”.

    Like

  258. lama
    September 21, 2012 at 9:21 am

    There seems to be a misconception that people have to vaccinate unless they have ironclad proof that refutes the opinion of the “experts” the people here cite. That is not the case. Regardless of what your particular “experts” say, we have all heard or read compelling accounts of people damaged by vaccines. Books like Our Daily Meds document the methods used by the large pharmaceutical companies to carry out dishonest studies, convince doctors to prescribe and people to take dangerous, unnecessary medications, and to get government agencies to promote their mission. Most of us are aware of this disturbing trend in our society.

    I applaud Joe for rejecting this trend and for steadfastly sticking to his belief that vaccines are dangerous, and that if his child were to get pertussis, she’d be sick for a while and then get over it. That’s what happens in nearly all cases of pertussis. Joe is right in thinking that good nutrition and the avoidance of vaccines promote good health much more than taking vaccines does.

    Like

  259. September 21, 2012 at 10:02 am

    @lama – I can’t see how getting the disease is better than not getting the disease – especially given that the severe side-effects of infectious disease occur at a much higher rate (a magnitude or more) than ever the relatively benign side-effects of vaccines (like inflammation for example), much less the extremely rare severe side-effects (the 1 in 10mil kind).

    Again, you have only conjecture – not evidence. Making a decision based on emotion only is a bad decision.

    Like

  260. lama
    September 21, 2012 at 10:18 am

    @Lawrence,
    And of course you have every right to act according to the evidence which seems most convincing to you. As do all of us. Many of us believe the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease, and choose to act as is consistent with this belief.

    Like

  261. September 21, 2012 at 10:24 am

    @lama – while I respect choice, I am disdainful of those that make choices based on flawed evidence, lies, misinformation and distortions.

    But again, perhaps it is natural selection at work – if people aren’t smart enough to make rational decisions based on overwhelming evidence, then nature will take its course – maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually.

    Like

  262. Chris
    September 21, 2012 at 11:25 am

    Lama, what is your plan to prevent pertussis in children? Please provide some actual evidence that it will work. Thank you.

    Like

  263. September 21, 2012 at 11:34 am

    @Chris – actually, I’d love to see the anti-vaccine plan for preventing these diseases from spreading? Or, would they be perfectly happy to see pre-vaccine levels of incidence, mortality rates, and side-effect rates?

    Like

  264. Chris
    September 21, 2012 at 11:38 am

    End Censorship:

    Chris, you have asked me a question and then demanded that any information I may give you be strictly to your own very tight notion of what evidence means. That is baiting.

    I disagree. I am using the type evidence required in all forms of science. Would you prefer that I analyzed the integrity of vehicular structures without conforming to the rules of science? If you boarded a vehicle do you want assurance that the structure between the wheels and the vehicle will not fail, or are you just willing to go with the manufacturer sayd “We believe it will not break”? Why should we compromise on the scientific standards when it comes to health and medicine?

    If you don’t know how to prevent pertussis in children, just say so. But don’t expect me or anyone else to accept beliefs and opinions in lieu of actual scientific evidence.

    Like

  265. lama
    September 21, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    Again, we don’t expect you or anyone else to accept beliefs and opinions that don’t seem persuasive to you. But I agree with Joe. We don’t have to know how to make a vaccine that would be safe for everyone, and we don’t have to know how to shield everyone from getting contagious diseases. We don’t have to. We read, we observe, and we make vaccine decisions for ourselves and for our families based on that. If emotions are part of the decision, that is normal. We are not machines. Our heart informs the decisions we make.

    Like

  266. September 21, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    @lama – hundreds of years ago, that type of decision making process led us to burn witches too….I’d like to think we’ve advanced a bit since that time. But, again, I think natural selection is at work here….

    Like

  267. End Censorship
    September 22, 2012 at 4:52 am

    How Ironic! I have twice tried to address you request for documentation of inconsistent application of the rules Lawrence and both times the attempts have gone to “Your comment is awaiting moderation”.

    So where Christine has still failed to answer the question the system appears to be automatically censoring….

    Like

  268. End Censorship
    September 22, 2012 at 6:05 am

    Although I must admit that its funny looking at you posts Lawrence. Lama said “Again, we don’t expect you or anyone else to accept beliefs and opinions that don’t seem persuasive to you. But I agree with Joe. We don’t have to know how to make a vaccine that would be safe for everyone, and we don’t have to know how to shield everyone from getting contagious diseases. We don’t have to. We read, we observe, and we make vaccine decisions for ourselves and for our families based on that. If emotions are part of the decision, that is normal. We are not machines. Our heart informs the decisions we make.”

    Your reply to this was “@lama – hundreds of years ago, that type of decision making process led us to burn witches too….I’d like to think we’ve advanced a bit since that time. But, again, I think natural selection is at work here….”

    I read that as you comparing people who disagree with you as uncivilized and your reference to “natural selection” as a hope that people like lama who said nothing aggressive or attacking die and die off. I am sure that if lama said that they wished you’d drop dead the comment would be removed and they may well be banned. You have couched that sentiment in a bit of eloquence and it stands unchallenged even the idea you are expressing is abhorrent.

    Like

  269. Lawrence
    September 22, 2012 at 7:58 am

    @End Censorship – I am thoroughly confused. I made a very legitimate point – anti vaccination groups seem to be more than happy to go back to a time when nature was allowed to take its course, when children were almost universally exposed to a variety of diseases – some made it, some didn’t & some were left with life-long debilitating side-effects, including blindness, sterility, deafness, and a whole host of others (not to mention all of the birth defects caused by rubella).

    This is, unfortunately, the course of natural selection. If that is what people choose, then they will have to live with the consequences of their actions (or inaction).

    How is this is any way wishing ill on anyone? I am merely pointing out that these people will be responsible for their actions – and nature will take its inevitable course, if we don’t use the brains given to us to understand that these diseases are not “inevitable” nor are they a “right of passage” but something to be avoided – because we don’t want to turn the clock back 100 years and just accept that our children have to suffer and perhaps be crippled for life by diseases, that by all measure, we can eliminate entirely (if only the anti-vaccine folks would let us).

    I would love the opportunity to have an open, rational discussion with any anti-vaccine person – provided they can provide real evidence to back up their claims. Unfortunately, as has been shown here and in the public forums, that evidence doesn’t exist – and they are forced to go back to accusing us of being “Pharma-Shills” or part of some conspiracy to hide the truth.

    I deal with evidence and facts – something the anti-vaccine group know nothing about.

    Oh, and how do you feel about Angela’s comment in the other thread? Do you believe that is part of the “reasonable” discource? How is her statement not a direct, personal attack?

    Like

  270. End Censorship
    September 22, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Now it is my turn to be confused. I reread what you posted and it seems that you are back pedaling now. You didn’t refer to natural selection in the past. You said “I think natural selection is at work here….” in reference to a poster saying “We read, we observe, and we make vaccine decisions for ourselves and for our families based on that. If emotions are part of the decision, that is normal. We are not machines. Our heart informs the decisions we make.”

    You took that sentiment and referred to it as being a dark ages view which is a derogatory claim and then said that their decision to adhere to that sentiment was natural selection at work in the present. In other words people with those views would be selected out. Dead. Extinct. I believe your meaning was quite clear but you tried to make it sound noble instead of disgusting and now that it is made obvious you are being cagey and backing away from what you said.

    I am confused though because you are firm supporter of vaccines. That is clear. Your statement also seems to admit that the use of vaccines allows the weak to survive which in evolutionary theory means that the entire human race is actually weakened by vaccination. That sounds more like an argument someone who was against vaccines would make. I only mention it because it makes me wonder how firm you views actually are.

    Like

  271. lilady
    September 22, 2012 at 11:38 am

    Lama states…

    “We don’t have to know how to make a vaccine that would be safe for everyone, and we don’t have to know how to shield everyone from getting contagious diseases. We don’t have to. We read, we observe, and we make vaccine decisions for ourselves and for our families based on that. If emotions are part of the decision, that is normal. We are not machines. Our heart informs the decisions we make.”

    Obviously you are clueless about the dangers of actually acquiring a vaccine-preventable disease. Show us proof that any of these vaccines are more “dangerous” than the diseases they prevent. If you don’t know how to shield everyone from getting a vaccine-preventable disease…at least have the decency to keep your unvaccinated selves and your unvaccinated children away from kids and adults who have real medical contraindications for receiving some of the vaccines.

    If you or your child acquires a serious bacterial vaccine-preventable disease say, invasive meningococcal bacteremia or meningitis…would you refuse IV antibiotics such as ceftriaxone, which “might have a side effect” and which might cure you or your child…just because you base your decisions on “your emotions” and “your heart” and you reject science because you don’t understand it?

    BTW show us any medicine, prescribed or OTC, that doesn’t have some untoward side effects for a tiny portion of the population. By your skewed reasoning, the only “medicine” that is 100% for 100% of the population 100% of the time, would be homeopathy medicine which is plain water with nary a molecule of ingredients, except sucrose.

    Like

  272. September 22, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    @end censorship – I dislike tone trolls. Perhaps you’d like to head over to AoA & complain about the tone of their comments as well.

    Like

  273. September 22, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    @end censorship – the natural selection comment had nothing to do with vaccines, but more about critical thinking skills.

    Think “Darwin Awards” and you’ll get it.

    Like

  274. Chris
    September 22, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    And my opinion is that if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Which is why I am asking for constructive solutions to prevent children from getting pertussis. It is also a way to drag persons back to discussing the actual topic of the above article.

    One positive step towards preventing passing pertussis to children is to update your once in a decade tetanus booster with the Tdap just a few years early.

    Like

  275. September 22, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    @Chris – as adults, we should know better & do what we can to protect the children both in our care & those that we come in contact with.

    Like

  276. End Censorship
    September 23, 2012 at 2:09 am

    Lawrence :
    @end censorship – the natural selection comment had nothing to do with vaccines, but more about critical thinking skills.
    Think “Darwin Awards” and you’ll get it.

    OMG! I had never heard of “Darwin Awards” so I looked it up. Their motto at is “”Darwin Awards: We watch the watchman watch the watchmen.”
    When natural selection deems that an individual’s highest cause is
    to serve as a warning to others, who are we to disagree?
    The next generation is descended from one fewer idiot, ever and anon.”

    The way I read your view means that you were not just calling another commenter uncivilized and wishing for their kinds demise you were also calling them an “id**t” as well!

    You have also insulted and attacked me by calling me a “tone troll”. I am not even sure what you mean by that, but it certainly doesn’t look like its flattering.

    Remember that you asked me for specific examples of rule breaking that would show a double standard as some people have been banned and not others. You are the one of the ones who has provided an example.

    Christine??? Why is Lawrence not being banned? Have ANY commenters who support the site ever been banned? Is the debate on here really fair and open? These are crucial questions!

    The first line of the comment policy says “The purpose of Shot of Prevention is to facilitate an ongoing dialogue about vaccine issues.” Dialogue requires differing views not just back slapping agreement.

    Like

  277. September 23, 2012 at 2:16 am

    @End Censorship, do you have anything to add to the discussion that is the topic of this post (namely, pertussis and how to ensure our communities are protected)? Your comments are way off topic.

    Like

  278. September 23, 2012 at 7:24 am

    @lara – end censorship is truly a tone troll, unfortunately. She isn’t interested in “discussions” as much as complaining about the “tone” of the conversation. Surprisingly, this person didn’t make an appearance when various individuals were making the most vile and hateful remarks, personal attacks, and thread derailments over the past several weeks.

    I am the biggest proponent of an open and honest discussion (the operative word there being “honest”) – we’ve shown time and time again that those that try to discuss the anti-vaccine side of the argument can only provide n=1 anecdotes, false / misleading / distorted “evidence” that has been debunked over and over and over again, or personal attacks – labeling anyone that is pro-vaccine as a “Pharma Shill” / being paid to express our views, etc.

    You can’t have an honest debate if one side can’t present honest evidence.

    Like

  279. End Censorship
    September 23, 2012 at 8:52 am

    As I stated with my first post, I am interested in the discussions from both sides of the debate. I asked Christine for a simple answer as there were many rules being broken by both sides of the debate. How many pro and anti people have had posts removed and barred? How can any debate be honest if one side is censored out of the discussion?

    Lawrence asked me in comment 257 to provide specific instances. I tried to answer but the comments were refused publication for some reason. In a true ironic twist of fate Lawrence has provided his own example of rule breaking and yet here he is still commenting and still breaking the rules. What is a “tone troll” anyway? Did you make that up? Thank you for your input Lara. Let me show other examples of rule breaking without consequence.

    This was from my back reading to find examples. These are from The Makings of A Vaccine Advocate.

    3 comments from Putinreloaded (no longer posting…. banned or not?)

    Comment 1. Only 288 out of of 4942 episodes (6%) of long-lasting caugh were pertussis. This means that even if we accept the pertussis vaccines are 100% good, still 94% of the kids remain unprotected from life-threatening coughing episodes, because B. pertussis is just a minority cause.

    Comment 2. Okay, Shot of Prevention says there is nothing to discuss. We should all pick up our marbles and go home.
    Behind the curtain is the little matter of where they get their funding – those cute little unrestricted pharma grants.
    Can you imagine if this nonsense was pulled on any other class of pharmaceutical product?

    Comment 3. “…one side has the benefit of scientific evidence, while the other relies on an unproven hypothesis..
    Vaxheads want galileo times back, when it was a mortal sin to question the evidence.

    Reply from lilady. I don’t know why putin is still posting here. This troll repeatedly violates the “Comments Policy” with its nasty, foul words.
    Please ignore nasty ignorant thread-derailing troll.

    Now I don’t see any nasty foul words nor any attacking comments. Did he in other comments? he did but not in this exchange. Referring to someone as nasty, ignorant and a troll is personally attacking yet lilady is still posting….

    Here’s one more.

    Steve Michael comment. Inactivated and killed are not exactly the same thing. Besides that, if these inactivated viruses are so harmless, why do such a large percentage of recipients get ‘flu-like’ symptoms? Or would you rather argue that it is the other ingredients that make them ill? Again you have side-stepped the analysis of the study which completely debunks your claims of efficacy. The vaccine doesn’t work as promoted and 96% of the population would remain healthy regardless. So why take the risk? Lara, I won’t go as far a putin and say that you are lying, but you certainly seem to lack any coherent thought process in these discussions.

    Reply from Lara. We need an option to vote down a comment so it can be removed. That last one was not only grotesque but completely and totally inappropriate. Christine, please, for the sake of decency, can we have this particular commenter blocked? His posts are inflammatory, insulting, vulgar and just plain wrong. The fact that he could speak so nonchalantly about this type of thing, even with relish sickens me and if he is allowed to continue I will have to remove myself because I don’t wish to be subjected to this kind of sick mentality.

    Steve Michaels did refer to Lara in a negative light in the last sentence although I think it falls short of an attack. Lara’s reply is really quite vicious. “Inflammatory, insulting, vulgar”? “Sick mentality’? Why? Because he pointed out that Lara did not address the point of a previous post? Steve Michaels is no longer posting (or banned…?) Yet Lara is still here.

    These are just a few examples as to why I have asked Christine my question. Lawrence, you can be the biggest supporter of open and honest discussions, but if one half of the discussion is silenced and you don’t seem to care then the words ring hollow. Who are you or me or anyone else to judge what is honest? Isn’t it human to discriminate? to decide between right and wrong and what we choose to believe and trust? Do you think the people who read this are so inferior to you or other supporters intellect that you must prevent them from seeing what other people think? I see merit on both sides of the discussion and have the right to make my own mind up. I am offended that you seem to think that you are so superior to me or anyone else that you see fit to prevent me or anyone else from seeing all views.

    Like

  280. September 23, 2012 at 9:45 am

    @end censorship – are there two equal sides to the discussion when it comes to AIDS denial?

    Are there two equal sides to Holocaust Denial?

    Are there two equal sides to 9/11 Truthers?

    Are there two equal sides to NWO Conspiracy or Chemtrails? Or heck, any of the other outlandish conspiracy theories (including, of course, Evolution vs. Creationism)?

    Christine is allowed to apply the policies of this board as she sees fit – if I should ever post something that is removed, I know that the blog owner has every right to do so.

    The anti-vaccine cranks that have ventured here haven’t elevated the level of discussion, they instead spew out the same lies, distortions and misinformation that has been posted and refuted over and over and over again. They aren’t interested in a discussion – hence their inability to actually refute the facts presented to show how incorrect they are – with the typical response being to accuse us of being in the pay of “Big Pharma.”

    I apologize for going off-topic and I think we’ve gone beyond addressing these issues. I leave it to the blog owner to determine if she wants elevated discussions of actual facts and evidence or allows lies, distortions and misinformation to be posted freely.

    I am never an advocate for removing legitimate posts – but those are few and far-between when it comes to anti-vaccine crankery.

    Like

  281. September 23, 2012 at 9:52 am

    @end censorship – you obviously didn’t read all of the vile posts of Putinreloaded (most, if not all of them had to be removed because of the horrible nature of his posts – which included direct, personal insults directed at just about everyone, along with the spewing of racial hatred, AIDS denial, and even antisemitism).

    I would Google “putinreloaded” and you’ll see exactly what I mean – a guy completely down the rabbit hole.

    Like

  282. End Censorship
    September 23, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Thank you for your candor Lawrence. Yes, Christine has every right to remove posts as she sees fit. But if that is used in a way that is not consistent with the stated purpose of the blog then she should be forthright. To do otherwise is to allow comments under false pretense. I fully support the removal of ALL personally attacking posts.

    As far as the rest of your comment while it is off topic it also demonstrates your true lack of open mindedness when it comes to issues. What got me the most was theHolocaust Denial reference. I am Jewish, but I recognize that more than just Jews were killed in the Holocaust and that many aspects of the Holocaust have been hijacked and changed or even romanticized for political purposes. According to the definition of Holocaust Denial, that would make me a denier even though there is clear evidence supporting my view. You seem to see things in very stark black and white. You seem to believe that your view is pure as the driven snow while anyone who disagrees with you is dishonest or mad. The world is not and has never been as simple as you see it.

    Like

  283. Chris
    September 23, 2012 at 11:53 am

    So, as part of a constructive discussion: what is your plan to prevent pertussis in children?

    Have you gotten you once every ten year tetanus booster by getting the Tdap a few years early?

    Like

  284. September 23, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    @end censorship – well, one of us has a “holier than thou” attitude, and I’m sure it isn’t me.

    Also, did you Google “putinreloaded?” If you haven’t, you have no idea who you are defending…..

    Back to the topic at end – again, this discussion isn’t just about one’s own children, but how we practice our responsibilities to the community at large.

    Like

  285. Quokka
    September 25, 2012 at 11:45 am

    End censorship- I am politely asking that you start your own blog if you wish to write, argue, discuss, philosophise, ponder or engage in a discussion regarding your concerns of censorship on the Internet, this site or any other.

    Can we please return to the topic. I really enjoy this blog for the evidence based consideration of public health safety measures involving vaccines and the regulars here who usually hold these discussions don’t need to have any more of their time wasted.

    Respectfully

    Quokka

    Like

  286. Gray Falcon
    September 25, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    I think End Censorship’s gone. Probably looked up putinreloaded on Google, and had a “My God, what have I done?” moment.

    Like

  287. End Censorship
    September 25, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    I think End Censorship’s gone. Probably looked up putinreloaded on Google, and had a “My God, what have I done?” moment.

    Nope, still here. Not saying much because not much is being said including a lack of response from Christine. I think we all know the answer to my question but I want to see if she will publicly admit it or not. By the way my mention of putinreloaded was as someone who appears to have been removed. I have investigated his blog and find nothing particularly offensive in it unless I found the wrong person. Google translated it from (I think) Portuguese of something.

    Quokka :
    End censorship- I am politely asking that you start your own blog if you wish to write, argue, discuss, philosophise, ponder or engage in a discussion regarding your concerns of censorship on the Internet, this site or any other.
    Can we please return to the topic. I really enjoy this blog for the evidence based consideration of public health safety measures involving vaccines and the regulars here who usually hold these discussions don’t need to have any more of their time wasted.
    Respectfully
    Quokka

    How can you blindly accept evidence if there is no discussion about the merits of the claims because the discussion has been shut down? I really enjoyed this blog for the brisk discourse from obviously differing viewpoints. That seems to have ended. It was the one thing that stopped this from being a pure propaganda site.

    Like

  288. September 25, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    End Censorship, the topic is vaccines, in this particular case it is the current pertussis outbreak. Do you have anything relating to the topic to add to the discussion because I really don’t come here to listen to rants about censorship, just as I don’t come here to be called a liar and stupid by the various trolls of the day. If you wish to discuss the comments policy with the moderator, do as the rest of us and send an email to her directly. The email address can be found in the comment policy near the bottom. Hope you have a great day.

    Like

  289. Gray Falcon
    September 25, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    End Censorship, do you consider whether something is true or not important to a scientific discussion? Putinreloaded didn’t.

    Like

  290. Joe
    September 25, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    End Censorship, I was blocked on this site twice, for no reason, and I also sent emails to SOP with no response. I believe the main group of people here are paid for commenting, so that cannot be blocked no matter what they say or do.

    Like

  291. lilady
    September 25, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    I suspect that *censorship* is a poster who has been banned a number of times from this blog because of blatant repeated violations of the Comments Policy.

    the putin troll called me a greedy b*st*rd, just before he was banned, putin also cyberstalked me on two other science blogs, where I frequently post. He was promptly banned from those sites as well.

    I suggest we just ignore *censorship* and get back to the subject of this thread.

    A few years ago, before the Tdap vaccine was recommended for adults, I contracted pertussis. I was fortunate that I knew the early symptoms of the disease, which appear to be similar to a common cold virus.

    What alarmed me and what prompted me to get to my doctor for testing, was the sudden and alarming dry hacking cough. I was promptly put on an antibiotic, even before I had a chest x-ray and before the test results confirmed that I did indeed have pertussis…which shortened the time that I could communicate the disease. I was grateful that I had no exposure to an infant, who was not fully immunized.

    I suffered with rib-cracking coughing spells for eight weeks, required a corticosteroid inhaler used 2X daily, along with several large bottles of prescribed codeine cough suppressing medicine, in order to get some sleep.

    Like

  292. End Censorship
    September 25, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    End Censorship, do you consider whether something is true or not important to a scientific discussion? Putinreloaded didn’t.

    Gray Falcon I will answer your question with a question. Considering that most scientific conclusions are only one of several that can be deduced from the experimental results, is it possible to intelligently discuss said results when only one side is allowed to speak?

    Another question is how many commenters on here are actually scientists? Your characterization of the discussions as “scientific” seem a bit presumptuous. Or are most commenters on here actually researchers in the field of vaccines? I have presumed that most commenters are actually genuine concerned people, but maybe Joe is right. If you are all scientists then maybe you are being paid directly or not to comment on here.

    Lilady, thank you for your opinion. I said it before and I will say it again, there is no point in holding a topical discussion when only one side is allowed to be heard. That is not a discussion. That is a bunch of people confirming their own biases and ignoring other points of view.

    Like

  293. Lara Lohne
    September 25, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    @lilady, you are fortunate that you were able to seek out medical assistance when you had pertussis. Just as with vaccines, my parents didn’t take us for regular doctor’s visits unless we were on the verge of dying or seriously injured. My mother believed chiropractic care was all we needed to be healthy. I personally believe the chiropractic care I had growing up is most of the reason my spin is curved, twisted and one of my legs is shorter then the other because I didn’t grow right. I mean, cracking your knuckles has been proven to weaken the muscles in your hands. What does cracking your back do to the muscles that support your spine? I had much better results and pain reduction going to physical therapy then I ever had with chiropractic care. And if I had coverage for it now, I’d seek physical therapy again to fix the problems with my neck and spine.

    I’ll never forget when my second born, a boy, was just 6 weeks old and my mom noticed a lump on his neck and insisted I take him to a chiropractor thinking it was actually a bone in his neck that was out of place. My son screamed and screamed while the chiropractor tried to get this lump in his neck to go away and it never did. He wanted me to keep bringing him back for additional treatments. Fortunately he had his routine well baby just a couple of weeks later and my doctor educated me that this was a gland and it’s supposed to be there and it is perfectly normal for it to be slightly pronounced in newborn boys. I never took him, nor any of my other children, to a chiropractor again and stopped listening to my mom, because is was pretty obvious to me that she didn’t really know as much as she thought she did about children and health. Just because she had 7 children doesn’t make her an expert. So I learned to rely on the experts who have gone to school for years and trusted their judgement when it came to my children’s health.

    To this day I feel really guilty thinking about the possibility that I could have spread pertussis to other people while I was sick. My mom was of the opinion, if you weren’t throwing up and didn’t have a fever you were well enough to go to school. Racking coughs that lasted for three months was not a reason to stay home. It still sometimes leaves me flabbergasted at the nonchalant attitude about vaccine preventable diseases that my mother taught us, especially considering how many of her children suffered with, and came close to dying from, them.

    Like

  294. Chris
    September 25, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    End Censorship:

    I said it before and I will say it again, there is no point in holding a topical discussion when only one side is allowed to be heard. That is not a discussion. That is a bunch of people confirming their own biases and ignoring other points of view.

    One side? Well I guess there are two sides: the one with the evidence and the other that does not have evidence. Which one should we use?

    Should we get on the vehicle where the manufacturer made a guess as to how secure the wheels are attached to the rest of the vehicle, or the one that actually has evidence it was designed and constructed correctly. Or better yet, would you get on a bridge designed by this guy:

    Alec Waterston is one such self-styled alternative engineer. He has no degree or formal training in engineering, which he explains is an advantage: “I am not limited in my thinking by mathematics or logic. I do not have to pay homage to the likes of Newton or other western male pedagogues. My complete lack of training frees me to consider unique and innovative solutions to engineering problems, unfettered by the annoying constraints of ‘reality’.”

    And it includes the special kind of automobile engineering:

    What has this new approach created? Well, Natural Design’s newest model sedan, the Millennium 2000, does not use air bags, or even seatbelts. “Seatbelts are dangerous, and air bags are kid killers,” complains Wiere. So he has come up with something better. The interior of the Millennium 2000 is coated with a patented psychoactive material, called Natural Safe. “All a driver or passenger has to do is think safe thoughts, and this miraculous material will do the rest. In a crash, the material will gently repel any safe thinking person in the vehicle, leaving them free from injury.”

    😉

    Like

  295. Gray Falcon
    September 25, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    @End Censorship: Here’s a case where Putinreloaded, when given the data, chose to deliberately ignore all the odd-numbered years: https://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/26/vaccine-questions-answered-the-real-simple-way/#comment-10735. Does that kind of brazen dishonesty have a place in science?

    Like

  296. Quokka
    September 25, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    End censorship – I don’t blindly accept evidence – what I have is enough University science qualifications including multivariate statistics, research design and methodology and my own Honours Thesis on the effect of time pressure of working memory function. This is nowhere near the level of knowledge and understanding of the scientific method and research methodology of others who comment here. It gives me the basics in understanding how to read all the relevant parts of published research not just the abstract and the conclusion and critically evaluate the research design and methodology and discuss the implications of the research. I also know that I shouldn’t pretend that I have more skills and understanding of infectious diseases than the people who dedicate their lives to researching them.

    Lara – I understand exactly how you felt regarding the spread of pertussis. Because exposure and symptoms may be up to 21 days apart when my partner was diagnosed last year we had to make a number of phone calls letting people know they may have been exposed and to warn others with whom they had been in close contact. As we had attended an 80th birthday party the week before there were some very tense days waiting to see if anyone else reported symptoms. My partner is from overseas and hadn’t gotten any of his boosters – he has now though!

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