Home > Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases > Determination Born From the Loss of a Child

Determination Born From the Loss of a Child

I’ve heard numerous stories of children who have lost their lives to vaccine preventable diseases.  You can read them on the Vaccinate Your Baby website or in the local paper.  You can watch them on YouTube or in a Shot By Shot video.  But until you have actually met their families, you may never fully appreciate the determination that is born out of the loss of a child.

This summer I had the pleasure of meeting Jonathan and Kathy.  By the gentle smiles we exchanged that first day, I never would have guessed the horrific pain they carried in their hearts for their precious son Brady.  You see, just a few months prior, Brady has succumbed to a terrible disease known as whooping cough.  Jonathan and Kathy’s lives were permanently altered by Brady’s birth.  And then again through Brady’s death just two months later.  They watched as pertussis infection took the life of their son.  And their was nothing that they could do about it.

Brady’s parents, Jonathan and Kathy, are determined to help educate others about the dangers of pertussis and the importance of vaccination.

I met Jonathan and Kathy at a special immunization event.  Despite their pain and grief, they had traveled quite a distance to find out how they could become involved in advocating for immunizations.  Their biggest concern was to help prevent their personal tragedy from happening to another family.  The most inspiring aspect of Jonathan and Kathy’s story is that they reached out to offer their help almost immediately. They did not wait. They did not hesitate. They contacted organizations like Every Child By Two, and began to tell their story in their community, on the local news and even through this blog.  Thanks to their courage and conviction, they’re speaking out about the need for pertussis booster shots to protect infants who have yet to be vaccinated.

Last week, Amy Pisani,  Executive Director of Every Child By Two, was inspired to use Brady’s story in explaining the dangers of pertussis and the current epidemic we are experiencing in the U.S. this year.  Her editorial piece (reprinted below) was shared in several regional newspapers to include the Springfield Republican and the Bangor Daily News.  Sadly, Brady is one of the many infants who have lost their lives to whooping cough so far this year.  But hopefully, thanks to the work of his devoted parents and organizations like Every Child By Two, other children will be spared such a tragedy.

Please, do your part to encourage expectant parents to cocoon their infants by ensuring that the adults their child comes into contact with are up to date with a Tdap booster.  Limiting an infant’s exposure to whooping cough is the best way to protect that child from this devastating disease.

Vaccination key to preventing whooping cough 

By Amy Pisani | Executive Director, Every Child by Two

The year 1959 was a great one in many ways. Gas was 25 cents a gallon. Barbie debuted on store shelves. Hawaii became the 50th state and our athletes were gearing up for the 1960 winter Olympics to be held in Squaw Valley.

Sadly, it was also the year that whooping cough cases reached an all time record high in this country. In that year, 40,000 cases were reported. But 2012 is quickly becoming a contender to eclipse 1959. The CDC has reported approximately 19,000 cases already this year.

This is a serious health risk to anyone not vaccinated against the disease, but in particular to infants who are the most vulnerable. Whooping cough, also known as pertussis, is a bacterial infection that can be deadly for infants and the elderly. Sadly, I have met too many families who have lost a child to this awful disease – right here in Massachusetts.

Little Brady Alcaide from Chicopee is one such example. At 2 months of age Brady was a happy, healthy baby until he contracted what his mother thought was a common cold. Brady was treated several times by his doctor, yet he was never diagnosed with pertussis. After he exhibited severe breathing difficulty his parents rushed him to the hospital, where he struggled to live for over 10 days. As is often the case once pertussis invades, Brady succumbed to the disease. At two months, a child has yet to be fully vaccinated against pertussis and many other vaccine preventable diseases. Infants rely on “herd immunity,” which means if the greater population is vaccinated against a disease, others in the community won’t contract it.

Brady’s parents may never know how their child caught the disease. Everyone in the family tested negative for whooping cough, so likely it was contracted from an adult outside the family who didn’t realize they were carrying the infection.

There is no need for families to live with this sort of heartache. Vaccines can prevent this tragedy from happening to another family. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that all adults attain a booster shot, called Tdap (which contains tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis vaccine). Recent studies show that the vaccine’s effectiveness can wane after time, therefore it is critical that 11-and 12-year-olds also receive a booster shot.

Expecting parents should attain a vaccine themselves and stress that all family members and close contacts take the time to receive the Tdap vaccine several weeks prior to the delivery date. There’s no excuse to delay. Talk to your doctor. Talk to your child’s pediatrician. Ask to check that you’re up to date on all your vaccinations, including the Tdap booster shot. If you can’t afford to take your child to the doctor, your local health department can provide information on the Vaccines for Children program, which provides vaccines free of charge to eligible children.

Help prevent another tragedy like that of little Brady and help to keep 2012 from being another one for the record books.

In what ways have you been alerted to the current pertussis epidemic and what steps are you taking to protect yourself, your children and your community from whooping cough?  

  1. Steve
    August 29, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    This is tragic. My heart goes out to the parents. I wish there was something that could have been done to prevent this death.

    Australia already cancelled their policy of incubating babies by vaccinating adults because they found it does not work. Vaccinating everyone around the baby failed to provide any discernible protection so I doubt this really would have helped in this case.

    Also, the author writes, “As is often the case once pertussis invades, Brady succumbed to the disease.” Well, no that’s not ‘often the case.’ This year, only 13 have died from pertussis while many thousands have been diagnosed. That’s hardly ‘often.’

    Interesting article, I’m disappointed more science could not have been written into it.

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  2. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Australia already cancelled their policy of incubating babies by vaccinating adults because they found it does not work.

    Citation please.

    Like

  3. Steve
    August 29, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Sure Chris, “the national Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee (PBAC) had determined vaccinating parents was not effective in protecting newborns, after two pharmaceutical manufacturers made unsuccessful submissions to the PBAC.”

    http://news.9msn.com.au/health/8464832/states-reconsider-adult-whooping-cough-jab

    Like

  4. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Ah, one state and some other states. Instead of a news article, could you link to the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee (PBAC) report?

    Like

  5. Steve
    August 29, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Like the CDC in the US, the PBAC makes recommendations and it is up to the states to decide how to implement them. And actually in the news brief the spokesman clearly said, “Victoria’s Department of Health divisional executive director Chris Brook told a parliamentary accounts and estimates committee on Tuesday that all states were abandoning the “cocooning” program at the end of June.”

    Not sure where you’re getting 1 state.

    And no, I cannot link the PBAC report because it has not been made public yet. They do not make all their reports public as quickly as in the US, the PBAC made the recommendation which is being implemented across the country. Best we have are direct quotes from the PBAC organization.

    You’re a hard sell, but this is just one example of a large group of people realizing the Whooping cough vaccine does not work and most likely would not have saved the child in this article.

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  6. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    From reading the article. Victoria was discontinuing the program, and other states were thinking about it. That is what I got from this sentence: On Wednesday, NSW, WA and Queensland health departments confirmed that reviews were underway to determine whether the vaccine for parents, grandparents and carers of infants under 12 months would continue to be provided.

    And one reason given is in this sentence: A spokesman for NSW Health said funding for the vaccine for these groups had been extended until 2012 but its continuation after that date was under review, as the whooping cough epidemic was declining.

    From looking at this page, it looked like the free vaccines were going to end a year earlier (as the article said, the program was extended). And this this page says: The vaccine is also recommended for adults in contact with young children (e.g. healthcare workers, childcare workers) or planning a pregnancy, but is not funded under the NIP for these individuals.

    Do link to that report when it comes available. Because it looks like it was more an economic consideration.

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  7. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    I do see that a study from British Columbia shows that cocooning is not efficient. But this review from Italy has a slightly different result:

    Despite the more recent position paper of WHO gives priority to infant and childhood vaccination against pertussis and leaves adolescent, adult and risk group immunization as an option for the future, data are quickly accumulating to support the need to consider pertussis vaccination as a crucial preventative intervention even in adolescents and special risk groups.

    In other words: it is complicated. And looking at just the first page of results on PubMed for “adult pertussis vaccination” shows there is lots of research going on all over this planet.

    In any case, due to the upsurge in pertussis cases in my state, its public health department has recommended a Tdap for everyone. So when I finally got my husband and younger son to the visit the doctor, hubby got the Tdap even though it was less ten years since he had his last tetanus booster (son had has his Tdap just prior starting college three years ago). I had been given the Tdap last year.

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  8. Tammy
    August 29, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    The vaccine doesn’t work??? Well my husband, my 6 year old daughter and myself all received the vaccine. However my 2 month old son caught pertussis from who??? Not those who were vaccinated but those who chose not to vaccinate their children. My in-laws! Funny why didn’t we catch it as well?

    Like

  9. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    I’m still trying to figure out why somebody thinks “works 90% of the time” is somehow identical to “doesn’t work”. They don’t hold that standard to seat belts and airbags.

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  10. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    I am trying to figure out where someone said the vaccine does not work. The main issue is that the immunity wanes, and it has only been a few years since the Tdap was introduced for adolescents, and a much shorter time since adults were encouraged to get it. So there is still low levels of pertussis immunity in adults.

    I think the point is that cocooning is not sufficient, and that all adults be encouraged to get the Tdap, even if their last tetanus booster was less than ten years ago. And still do it even if they have to pay for it.

    Like

  11. Quokka
    August 29, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    I am in Western Australia and the scheme has been extended. The issues here were not about efficacy as much as but cost benefit to the taxpayer from the information provided by the local News/Health. The scheme had to decide about funding other vaccines – I believe the HPV was chosen to be included on the Public Benefit Scheme for boys in 2013.

    The other issue was research by University of New South Wales showing that the current vaccines weren’t targeting the correct strain presenting in New south Wales so it was an issue of developing a new vaccine not funding the older ones.

    The local Health Department has been running a lot of adds asking adults to get their boosters as we have recently had an epidemic of Whooping Cough here.

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  12. Chris
    August 29, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Quokka, do your pharmacies/drug stores offer vaccines? They can do that here, and it is often just $25 (I was surprised to see the difference in the number of locations that offered the Tdap versus just the Td).

    Like

  13. Quokka
    August 29, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Hi Chris, you can get the Flu shot here in pharmacies. It was a very unpopular decision when approved here in 2011 but we were suffering then and are now in a flu epidemic. I will check when the decision is up for review if I can.

    On the issue of the pertussis vaccine I have gone onto the “Australian Doctor” webcommunity (you have to be a registered health practitioner in Australia to get access so Steve probably can’t get access). The biggest response here has been that the evidence used to make the PBAC decision has not been made public/ nor the Parliamentary Estimates data which is highly unusual. It seems according to the GPs commenting that the free immunisation scheme for parents/carers only came onboard in 2009 and the submission was made in 2011 so they are querying how efficacy of the program has been determined.

    It seems PBAC was not provided with any evidence on the results of cocooning in Australia as no evaluation of current programs was available at that time. Therefore, PBAC concluded clinical effectiveness was uncertain and under its criteria, unlikely to be cost-effective.

    PBAC don’t make clinical recommendations. These are made by the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI), which has recommended cocooning since 2003.

    I have contacts at UNSW so will see if there are any updates. If there are I will post them.

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  14. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 12:57 am

    I looked up Medicare Part D (Drugs) Coverage and Td or Tdap are covered. (Medicare is prime payer for those over 65 years of age or those who are younger and are disabled).

    I checked my union drug plan and Td or Tdap are covered as part of the approved adult immunization plan.

    As Chris stated above, the Recommendations from the CDC for children entering 7th grade are to boost with Tdap vaccine. CDC also recommends Tdap vaccine for pregnant women and anyone who does have, or anticipates having, close contact with an infant under one year of age:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6041a4.htm

    Like

  15. Grumpygirl
    August 30, 2012 at 1:14 am

    Even if you don’t believe “cocooning” is effective, get the Tdap for yourself! I was diagnosed with whooping cough in early June. I’m 39 and my last vaccine was when I was about 12. I have no children and so was unaware of the adult booster. Here in Oregon, huge numbers of adults have been hacking this hellish, dry cough all winter, spring, and summer. I simply did not know what that was all about. Fortunately the diagnosis was early on. I got the antibiotic course so I was only contagious briefly. It has been a nightmare. The cough has affected my job performance, my back/rib alignment, my social life, relationships – you name it. The time off work and medical expenses have depleted my savings to an alarming point. My doctor is only a few years younger than me and I am the first pertussis case of his career. We finally perfected a cough suppressant regime that has allowed me to make it through the day and also sleep, but the meds are not without unpleasant side effects and I have to take rather high doses of them to stop the cough. If I wait too long for the next dose, I can clearly tell that the hacking shows no sign of abating. BTW, the pertussis cough is like nothing else I’ve ever experienced. I will never mistake it for anything else for as long as I am alive.

    Be selfish! Get the vaccine for *you*.

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  16. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 1:17 am

    @ Tammy: I’m so sorry that your son contracted pertussis. It is a pity that non-vaccinating parents don’t keep their children away from little babies.

    I recall a case of an infant death from pertussis when I worked as a public health nurse. Case surveillance of all close contacts revealed that an older household member had infected the baby…so sad.

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  17. Kathryn
    August 30, 2012 at 1:20 am

    Chris is correct about the Australia’s cocooning strategy being an economic decision.

    NSW has meanwhile announced a new strategy

    http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/news/2012/20120622_00.html

    Like

  18. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 1:21 am

    Quokka:

    . The biggest response here has been that the evidence used to make the PBAC decision has not been made public/ nor the Parliamentary Estimates data which is highly unusual.

    Okay, that is interesting. The CDC seems a bit more open, especially with their weekly reports (which now has a thirty year archive!).

    It does seem that there are issues with waning immunity (which happens even when you get the disease!) and only the recent introduction with spotty coverage of adult immunizations, it is difficult to get up to herd immunity levels needed to protect the vulnerable. On Respectful Insolence a slide show was posted that showed that there needs to be 92% to 94% vaccinated for pertussis on page 19 (by Grant, who lives somewhere between you and Antarctica… near where they filmed the “Lord of the RIngs” movies).

    Personally as a person educated in engineering with some statistical background, it is going to take a few more years to get over 90% of the population actively vaccinated against pertussis. Just by looking at the numbers in a developed country where those older than eighteen make up a great majority of the population (about 75%, see “Age and Sex Composition: 2010, 2010 Census Briefs” at the USA census webpage… I am out of links per comment) the active herd immunity has to be less than 70%, I’ll make a wild guess and say it is closer to 50%.

    Personally, I think we should get rid of all Td vaccines, and just use Tdap for the boosters. And if those who actually get their tetanus boosters do it, the herd immunity will be better in about five to eight years. But, then again, there are several who do not get tetanus boosters for some reason or another. Since I am an avid gardener, I make sure I get my tetanus booster, which I did in 2005, a year before the Tdap was approved. I got a Tdap in 2011 while attending TAM9 in Las Vegas, NV. Which is much less exciting than when I got a tetanus booster from the factory nurse after I stapled my finger. Who knew being an office drone was so dangerous?

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  19. Illyria
    August 30, 2012 at 1:25 am

    Steve is plying the anti vaccination line. He and his cronies are well dctrinated, but wrong. Immunization does work, and it has worked for years until omplacency sets in and we forget the past. We get scammed by the lies of the anti vax lobby. We Ned to continue the vaccinations, both of the children and the adults. We need to wipe out this anti vaccination misinformation and educate ourselves. RIP little man, you paid a high price for adults ignorance.

    Like

  20. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 1:44 am

    GrumpyGirl:

    I was diagnosed with whooping cough in early June. I’m 39 and my last vaccine was when I was about 12

    Whoa! I spent too much time composing my comment and missed many new ones.

    As I have been thinking about this, and remember memories are faulty, in the mid-1980s a few years before my son was born I had what I thought was a very nasty virus. All I did was cough, cough, and cough again. I even went to our family doctor who just prescribed some cough medicine. This may have been the time when I actually lost my sense of smell for a while. It could have been a virus, but perhaps it was pertussis… since it lasted for a couple of months! Who knows?

    Well, pertussis (hundred day cough) is something that should be avoided. Just like tetanus (lock jaw) and diphtheria (choking angel).

    For several years I, and members of my family, would come down with some kind of ailment that required lots of sleep and sitting in a bed watching DVD movies (“The Tenth Kingdom” was often the choice for sick kids, as it did not require much thinking or changing of disks). The last time that happened to me was about four years ago (I watched the Farscape Series). Since then I have made sure to get an annual influenza vaccine, so there have been much fewer sick days.

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  21. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 1:52 am

    @ Grumpygirl: I had pertussis just a few short years ago and I am (quite) a bit older than you. I knew almost immediately that the hacking cough which followed a day or two of sniffles was pertussis. I went to my GP and requested a test with a naso-pharyngeal swab which turned out to be positive for pertussis. I started antibiotics immediately before the test result was positive. I was so glad that I hadn’t had exposure to an infant.

    The rib cracking cough is horrendous. I was on a bronchial inhalator and a few giant sized bottles of prescribed cough syrup with codeine, allowed me to get some sleep.

    @ Kathryn: See my link to the CDC revised recommendations at # 14 above. CDC now recommends pregnant women who did not receive the Tdap booster before pregnancy, receive the vaccine during pregnancy.

    Like

  22. Quokka
    August 30, 2012 at 2:11 am

    Thanks Kathryn – you beat me to it! Clearly the focus is still on vaccination – timing and cost effectiveness are always going to be significant variables in policy decisions. I actually remember signing an online petition when the initial somewhat scaremongering news articles came out making the same kind of statements as Steve did earlier.

    Thanks Chris – I will read ORAC’s slide show ( love that site!). I have been regularly involved in making budget submissions for Parliamentary Estimates and the information used to make the estimates has to be pretty transparent. Ministers can get grilled during “Question Time” and we had to sit by our desks in case they wanted immediate information. Sackable offence if you gave incorrect data so this seems strange. I am assuming that the data is out there but the people who have responded to my query haven’t seen it. I will post anything I receive.

    Waning immunity and boosters is definately a major issue in Australia as well. You may have read we had our first confirmed death from Diptheria since 1993 in Australia last year. An unimmunised Queenslander – thanks to herd immunity there was no spread. I agree with your opinion regarding Tdap even after I also had to get a Tetanus booster after treading on a rusty nail on a farm a few years ago – last time I volunteer to help during a drought!

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  23. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 2:39 am

    Correction, the slide show is from the UK (you know, that place which sent immigrants to where we live now… some of us broke off of those blokes politically, the kerfuffle in 1812 made it possible for an ancestor of mine to have property in what is now West Virginia).

    Well you obviously know that diphtheria made an impression when the USSR fell: Successful Control of Epidemic Diphtheria in the States of the Former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics: Lessons Learned.

    I agree with your opinion regarding Tdap even after I also had to get a Tetanus booster after treading on a rusty nail on a farm a few years ago – last time I volunteer to help during a drought!

    But now you can volunteer some more! You are vaccinated, and you can tell your fellow volunteers to get the Tdap as a booster. Trust me, if you visit gardening sites there are many reminders to get a tetanus booster. While is rare. it does occur: Philosophic objection to vaccination as a risk for tetanus among children younger than 15 years.

    Like

  24. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 2:43 am

    ” While is rare. it does occur”… should be While it is rare, it does occur”

    Just a reminder to never drink and comment.

    Like

  25. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 2:48 am

    @ Quokka: Here’s another interesting analysis about the cost effectiveness of pertussis-containing boosters shots to immunize pregnant women-versus-immunizing two weeks postpartum women, to protect newborns. The analysis was a topic presented at the annual IDSA (Infectious Disease Society of America) Annual Meeting, October 2011:

    https://idsa.confex.com/idsa/2011/webprogram/Paper31792.html

    See, aren’t you glad you stopped by here and mentioned your noble work to shake loose some government money to protect infants.

    Like

  26. Quokka
    August 30, 2012 at 3:07 am

    Thanks Lilady – looks very interesting – I can see tonight is going to be spent with a glass of wine and some engaging reading.

    Like

  27. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 3:22 am

    Quokka: See the time stamp on our posts? I’m posting at 3 AM from the East Coast of the United States…after enjoying a vodka/tonic…way earlier on my back deck.

    Let us know how things work out.

    Like

  28. August 30, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Tammy :
    The vaccine doesn’t work??? Well my husband, my 6 year old daughter and myself all received the vaccine. However my 2 month old son caught pertussis from who?

    From you who thought were protected but actually were carriers due to cellular the vaccine.

    Like

  29. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Hi, Steve,
    I was about to post this link:
    health.com/gaia-blog/2012-05-10/australia-ends-free-whooping-cough-vaccines-for-adults-doesnt-protect-babies/
    to an article about Australia cancelling their vax program because scientific tests had determined it didn’t work, when I saw your link. This is silly, we went through this whole thing last spring when the article about Brady dying of pertussis appeared. Chris, why do you demand the original scientific article for everything, when they aren’t often available to the general public? Do you just want everyone to “trust” the medical professionals with these life or death decisions, and not ask for any evidence? Can you deny that the vast majority of those getting pertussis this year in the U.S. had been appropriately vaccinated? I’m sure you guys would be very happy if everyone got a pertussis vax every week as part of their weekly shopping trip, what a killing for your patrons! but since the vax just isn’t very effective, a huge number of people would still get and transmt pertussis. Quarantine of newborns at home would be the best policy, and just skip this dangerous vax for everyone. Brady was a beautiful baby, and I’m very sorry he died. I don’t understand why it took them so long to diagnose the pertussis, but there would not have been any treatment for it anyway.

    Like

  30. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 11:11 am

    L,
    You know that a huge number of fully and appropriately vaccinated people can still catch and transmit pertussis, why are you assuming that Tammy’s child caught it from an unvaccinated person?

    Like

  31. Quokka
    August 30, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Except Ella that Australia hasn’t. Australia is made up of seven states and territories. The largest is Western Australia, where I live. The program has been extended here, not ceased.

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  32. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 11:35 am

    ella:

    Chris, why do you demand the original scientific article for everything, when they aren’t often available to the general public?

    Because they contain the missing information that the journalists leave out. Like the fact it was the individual policy in each state, and not the nation’s federal government. You might have figured that out if you had bothered to read the news article and other comments.

    Like

  33. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 11:49 am

    CIA Parker/ella: You didn’t read the entire article did you? You see this thread as another opportunity to slam vaccines and to “blame the parents”. What a dreadful attitude you have

    If you had read the article in its entirety, including Amy’s Pisani’s post you would have noticed this…

    “Brady’s parents may never know how their child caught the disease. Everyone in the family tested negative for whooping cough, so likely it was contracted from an adult outside the family who didn’t realize they were carrying the infection.”

    I can’t believe that you stated this CIA Parker/ella…” Brady was a beautiful baby, and I’m very sorry he died. I don’t understand why it took them so long to diagnose the pertussis,
    but there would not have been any treatment for it anyway.”

    I really *wonder* if you are mourning the death of Brady…you seem to use his death repeatedly to post your bile and to slam his parents as well as spout your ignorance about the disease, the epidemiology of pertussis…and the acute hospital care rendered, including ECMO, to enable infants to survive this devastating disease.

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  34. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 11:58 am

    CIA Parker/ella: How do you think Chris located “the original scientific article for everything, when they aren’t often available to the general public? ”

    Chris does not have “secret access” to articles, or access to articles behind pay walls. She looks up articles on reliable websites…that are not available on the Age of Autism or any of the other anti-vaccine websites that you visit and post on.

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  35. Quokka
    August 30, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Lilady, yes I chose to ignore the other troll after reading previous threads. I have watched over the weeks, and really enjoyed reading the references provided as you all tried to reason with them but there comes a point when it is simply pointless engaging. I cannot give a professional opinion as to possible mental health diagnoses as it would unethical but is is sorely tempting!

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  36. Quokka
    August 30, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    OT Lilady but I have had a chance to look at the case we discussed briefly elsewhere and I think your original assessment was correct. It was more an issue of failure to provide a general standard of care than an assessment of the efficacy of spinal manipulation. I will watch over the next weeks and see what local responses are, at least the case will likely generate discussion.

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  37. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    @ Quokka:

    I’m going back now to that *elsewhere* blog to give you a website about that *other case*.

    Unfortunately, I had contact with the person involved in the similar case that I will link to.

    Like

  38. August 30, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    Why would you let people walk around in an area when you know it is not safe? Wouldn’t you tell them if you knew?

    That is what Kaden’s Law does, tells them it is not safe. It tells them there is a communicable disease at epidemic levels in their neighborhood, that could harm them or their family.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/create-law-to-send-out-an-epidemic-warning-to-citizens-kaden-s-law

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  39. Tammy
    August 30, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    @ Putinreloaded, From you who thought were protected but actually were carriers due to cellular the vaccine

    Nice try since we were all vaccinated well in advance, over a year before our babies were born! The non vaccinated children contracted the virus and spread it!!!! First to my mother in-law then she carried it to our baby. Know what you are talking about before coming out with these comments!
    People who choose not to vaccinate need to stay away from infants and the elderly!

    Like

  40. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    @ Tammy: I know it is soooo tempting to reply to the odious troll 🙂

    I delivered my babies years ago (1970 and 1976), when young parents had sad memories of how devastating a childhood disease could be. My childhood chum died from polio and my older cousin had measles encephalitis which left him with permanent neurological sequelae.

    Because of our collective awareness about what are now, vaccine preventable diseases, I always felt safe when I brought my children to the pediatrician’s office and when they went to school. Now in this internet era, where credulous parents get their advice from the notorious anti-vaccine websites, parents who do vaccinate, have valid concerns about their child’s safety.

    The internet is full of *advice* and full of the names of doctors who pander to non-vaccinating parents. Such parents share the names of doctors who believe that *mommy/daddy intuition* trumps science. If these parents seek out these doctors for their kids, why shouldn’t we question staff in a pediatrician’s office about their “vaccine policy”…so that we can make informed choices about which doctor should be trusted with the care of our precious children?

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  41. Tammy
    August 30, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    @ Lilady Thank you! Maybe you could some how let me know about *elsewhere* I am such a strong advocate now that this has happened to our family!!

    Like

  42. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    @ Tammy: You would be SO WELCOME to join us on that *elsewhere* blog. I’m open to suggestions from Chris, Lawrence, Lara, Gray Falcon and Quokka for assistance to provide the link.

    I don’t want the trolls to follow you there…we have a few of our own. The posters there are doctors, nurses, pathologists, chemists, biologists and research scientists… and many, many civilians such as you, who have extraordinary knowledge bases. 🙂

    Like

  43. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 4:24 pm
  44. lilady
    August 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    @ Chris 🙂 and 🙂

    Like

  45. Tammy
    August 30, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Thanks so much!!!

    Like

  46. Th1Th2
    August 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    This blog site has become an extension of mothering. com. May be the pro-vax should encourage Dorkski to up the ante on vaccine discussion so his fan base will not get bored. So sad to see the herd in a debased situation just to find new recruits.

    Like

  47. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    I agree that no one should forget the death of a baby as precious as Brady. Perhaps parents of newborns should be urged more strongly to keep them in quarantine at home to the best of their ability until they are four or five months old, since even vaccinating everyone around them will not reliably protect them from contracting the disease. The vast majority of those catching and transmitting it now were appropriately vaccinated. But neither should we forget the deaths of these children whose deaths from the DTaP vaccine were reported to the VAERS. The identification numbers are given so that anyone can confirm the deaths by going to the public VAERS data base (FDA Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System).
    187791: a 3-month-old boy received DTaP and died five hours later.
    253739: a 5-month-old girl received DTaP and died the following day. The autopsy states that she was well on the day of vaccination. She developed fever, severe diarrhea, and vomited. She became limp, the caregiver started CPR, and the child was transported to ER.
    150475: a 6-month-old baby received DTaP two days before arriving in ER in full cardiac arrest.
    311936: a 6-month-old girl got her third DTaP, developed fever and hemorrhagic rash. She died the followiing day.
    124771: one day after a 7 month old got DTaP she was found unresponsive and could not be revived.
    133897 an 11 month old boy got DTaP and was found cold and limp that afternoon by his mother after his nap, the cause of death was “acute pulmonary decompensation.”
    154929: (just autism, not death) a 15 month old boy got DTaP and developed abnormal behavior, aggression, cognitive disorder, neurodevelopmental disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, persistent crying, screaming, decreased ability for eye contact and responses, hyperactivity, tantrums, loss o flanguage and concentration, developmental delay, severe diarrhea, stomach pain, food allergies, and impaired socialization.
    68561: 2 1/2 year old girl got DTaP and later that evening collapsed, went into cardiac arrest and died.

    Like

  48. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Tammy,
    Dr. Anne Schuchat, a director at the CDC, said a few weeks ago that this year’s outbreaks of pertussis could not be blamed on the unvaccinated, but rather on the fact that the vaccine is so ineffective.

    Like

  49. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    I do not see how anyone could see the photo of Brady with the respirator in his mouth, but such a beautiful face, and not mourn his loss. He had a sweet smile even though he was so young you wouldn’t have thought he would be smling yet. Why would you think that I would not be moved by the death of any child, whether from a disease or from a vaccine? I read the story back in March? April? I remembered that the parents said they had tested negative. The hospital personnel didn’t realize until quite late in the game that the baby had pertussis. Obviously he caught it from someone, and even if he had been quarantined, he might still have caught it from a caregiver, but it would have provided more of a margin of safety, especially since his parents in this case did not have. it. Since no one knows how he got it, there is absolutely zero reason to assume that it was from an unvaccinated person, and statistically an 80-90% chance that he caught it from a vaccinated one.

    I wish that I could have protected Brady and the other newborns who have died from this disease. I do not think that anyone getting this vaccine is a good way to protect them. The babies who are killed by the vaccine were just as precious and just as dead, I wish I could have protected them as well.

    Like

  50. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Tell me, are you people moved by the deaths of the babies listed above, who died shortly after getting the DTaP?

    Like

  51. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    You’re right, in the posts I made last week, I was careful to say that it was one area of Australia that had cancelled the program, because it had found that the scientific evidence had convinced them that the vaccine wasn’t effective, so it wasn’t worth the money. I find that significant and persuasive, but those who think the vaccine is effective unless all the districts agree that it is ineffective are certainly free to continue believing as much.

    Like

  52. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    This blog is supposed to provide an ongoing dialogue on vaccine issues. That means more than one opinion is expected and permitted, it is not meant to only be for pro-vaccine posts. So it is unfair to talk about thread-derailing posts, if the posts are on the topic du jour, for instance about the pertussis vaccine in this case, they are relevant and should be permitted without question.

    Like

  53. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Chris,
    Did you not see the CDC press briefing by Dr. Anne Shuchat?
    Dr. Anne Schuchat is CDC director for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases.

    Dr. Anne Schuchat
    ‘We know there are places around the country where there are large numbers of people who aren’t vaccinated. However, we don’t think those exemptors are driving this current wave. We think it is a bad thing that people aren’t getting vaccinated or exempting, but we cannot blame this wave on that phenomenon. Next question.’

    Like

  54. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Thanks, Steve, I didn’t realize that Chris Brooks, had said that all states in Australia were discontinuing the cocooning program at the end of June. Good to know!

    Like

  55. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Gray Falcon:
    I’m not good at statistics. If the vaccine were 90% effective (which is the highest estimate for its rate of efficacy that I’ve heard), and a huge percentage of the remaining 10% caught pertussis, does that explain how 80-90% ot those getting the disease had been appropriately vaccinated, but got it anyway? Do the figures add up?

    Like

  56. ella
    August 30, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Grumpygirl,
    It’s dangerous to suppress the cough if you have pertussis, it’s very important to cough up the mucus your body is trying so vigorously to get you to do, otherwise it may pool in your lungs and cause pneumonia or other complications. Parents should be aware that they should absolutely not give cough suppressants if there is any chance that their child might have pertussis.

    Like

  57. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    ella, why are you flooding this comment thread? Though you can answer one simple question: What must you read and understand before using the VAERS database at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ?

    Like

  58. Gray Falcon
    August 30, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    ella :
    Gray Falcon:
    I’m not good at statistics. If the vaccine were 90% effective (which is the highest estimate for its rate of efficacy that I’ve heard), and a huge percentage of the remaining 10% caught pertussis, does that explain how 80-90% ot those getting the disease had been appropriately vaccinated, but got it anyway? Do the figures add up?

    Let’s see with a simple hypothetical example:
    10000 people
    9900 vaccinated, vaccine is 90% effective
    100 not vaccinated
    Of the vaccinated, 990 get the disease.
    Of the not vaccinated, 90 get the disease.
    Percent of those who get the disease that are vaccinated: 91%
    So yes, they do add up.

    Like

  59. Kelly
    August 30, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    ella/cia, you repeat the same lies on every post and every post you are corrected. Why do you continue to lie?

    Like

  60. Chris
    August 30, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    ella/cia parker, perhaps you should have read these two comments: December 2011 and May 2012.

    We keep giving you information, but you seem to be very forgetful.

    And did you ever find out what you need to read and understand before using the VAERS database on its official website?

    Like

  61. Grumpygirl
    August 31, 2012 at 12:42 am

    ella :

    Grumpygirl,
    It’s dangerous to suppress the cough if you have pertussis, it’s very important to cough up the mucus your body is trying so vigorously to get you to do, otherwise it may pool in your lungs and cause pneumonia or other complications. Parents should be aware that they should absolutely not give cough suppressants if there is any chance that their child might have pertussis.

    Ella, this is whooping cough and I have no secondary infection. There is no mucus. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. My lungs are as clear as a bell and I know this for certain. My doctor has had me come in every 3 weeks since June just so he can check. The coughing happens because the toxin that Bordetella pertussis excretes damages the alveoli in your lungs. The coughing stops when your alveoli finally repair and heal themselves. When I was growing up, a kid in my neighborhood got a big whiff of swimming pool chlorine tablets by accident, which damaged the alveoli in his lungs. He developed a cough that sounded just like whooping cough that went on for about 4 months. In that case, the chlorine damaged his alveoli just like the pertussis toxin does.

    My doctor is an MD that actually practices holistically 60% of the time. He prescribes naturopathic-style tinctures, acupuncture, vitamins/minerals for a great many things. We even tried a naturopathic tincture that has been remarkable effective whenever I’ve had viral bronchitis. It did absolutely nothing for whooping cough. There is absolutely nothing productive or beneficial about this cough. The only thing that has come up when I’ve had a coughing fit is my dinner. If people have whooping cough and are coughing stuff up out of their airway, they have some sort of a secondary infection – and that’s a whole different story.

    Like

  62. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Grumpygirl,
    We are both adults, and it is possible that it is common among adults for pertussis to produce little or no mucus. I caught it from my daughter in February 2001, and while she coughed up incredible amounts of slippery, clear mucus at the end of each coughing fit, I coughed up little or no mucus, though I also coughed ten times per breath. It may be that this difference in presentation between children and adults is common.

    Hilary Butler, in Just a Little Prick, p. 109, says: “Whooping cough is a toxin-mediated disease, which mans that the symptoms you see and hear are caused partly by the toxin released from the bacteria sticking to the hairs in the bronchials. The toxin cuts off the hairs in the bronchials. Normally the mucus in the lungs and bronchials circulates around, being swept up the bronchials by those cilia that the toxin cut off, then moving down into the stomach where stomach acid deals with potentially problematic bacteria. This steady circulation of mucus out of the lungs is important to keep the lung mucus surfaces healthy and stop bacteria multplying and causing infections.

    With the hairs in the bronchials being gradually chopped off as bacteria numbers increase, the mucus from the lungs comes to the base of the bronchials, and then the problem occurs, because there are fewer cilia, and they don’t cope as well with moving the mucus upwards. Mucus starts to pool at the bottom, and interferes with breathing so the child starts to cough to move it up. As more hairs are cut off, mucus pools more, and coughing it up gets harder, and takes more coughs, as the body tries to get the excess up, so that the mucus in the lungs can be replaced. The pertussis toxin also irritates the bronchials and increases and thickens mucus production.”

    Dr. Michaela Glockler, in A Guide to Child Health, p. 125, says: “The typical coughing attacks of pertussis most frequently occur at night, triggered by the gradual accumulation of tough, glassy phlegm in the bronchi, which is then removed through strong, loud, harsh, staccato coughing. The child has no time to catch his breath between coughs, and repeated coughing drives all the air out of his lungs…The whole coughing sequence repeats once or twice more, after which the child vomits up the phlegm (and possibly also his last meal).”

    She says on p. 126:”Not only in infancy, but also later, pertussis is more dangerous if chemical sedatives and cough suppressants are administered because these drugs reduce the frequency and intensity of coughing. As a result, phlegm is more likely to remain in the lungs, where it can contribute to the development of pneumonia and oxygen deficiency in the brain…Antibiotic treatment is indecated only to prevent infection in an infant or in weakened children who also have pneumonia. Antibiotics lessen the duration and severity of symptoms only when administered in the early stages of the disease (my note,, after exposure but before coughing starts), and they may prevent the development of effective immunity.”

    Of course you may seek the treatment you believe is effective, but parents must at least be aware that many medical practioners, both allopathic and naturopathic, warn against antibiotic treatment and cough suppressants in the attempted treatment of pertussis. My daughter coughed over a month, and I for over two months, but we both eventually recovered completely with no complications.

    Like

  63. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Chris,
    Parents must decide whether they think it is pure coincidence that so many children have developed such severe or fatal symptoms within hours or days of getting a vaccine, in this case, the DTaP. Personally, I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I don’t think previously healthy young babies are going to go into full cardiac arrest four hours after the vaccine coincidentally. You are free to believe what you want. I am suggesting that parents consider this information before vaccinating, information that you are not presenting to them. Whether they decide to vaccinate or not vaccinate, they are the ones who will bear the burden of guilt and grief if their child dies or is permanently disabled, outcomes possible with either the vaccine or the disease.

    Like

  64. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 10:14 am

    The CDC reported that as of August 11, 2012, there had been 22,000 cases of confirmed pertussis in the U.S., with 12 deaths, most of them among young infants less then three months old. There have certainly been thousands more cases than that, as, since it usually isn’t that serious a disease in older people, most do not go to a doctor or have a lab test. And if they have gotten a pertussis vaccine in the last ten years, many doctors wouldn’t bother with a lab test, incorrectly assuming that it couldn’t be pertussis. 80-90% of those 22,000 had been appropriately vaccinated, but got it anyway, and may have inadvertently given it to others, including young infants. I really don’t care about whether or not herd immunity exists or how often the vaccine really is effective or how long immunity lasts, since my daughter and I now have immunity that may be permanent, or at least give us several decades more of protection. And if we did get the disease again anyway, we’d just go through it again, and achieve some degree of immunity again. It is just as selfish to expect others to incur the risk of the vaccine hoping it will protect you as it is for me to say we’re not going to incur the risk, sauve qui peut.

    Like

  65. lilady
    August 31, 2012 at 10:22 am

    CIA Parker: We really don’t care what you think…which is based mainly on anecdotal information and garbage you read on that notorious anti-vaccine website.

    Dr. Michcela Glockler is a crank and I rely on information from my physician and the opinions of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Infectious Disease Society of America…whose physicians are all infectious Disease specialists.

    You were wrong about Australia ending pertussis vaccine distribution and spectacularly wrong that there is no treatment for babies when they are hospitalized.

    Like

  66. Chris
    August 31, 2012 at 10:42 am

    ella/cia, why have you not answered my very simple question? What must you read and understand before entering the VAERS database at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ? I know It has been explained to you before, so please answer the question.

    Like

  67. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    Steve said that Chris Brooks, divisional execturive director of the PBAC, said that free pertussis vaccine programs in all the Australian states would be cancelled at the end of June. If this is the case, then I was not mistaken.

    The VAERS data base is sponsored by the FDA and its purpose is to register reported adverse reactions to vaccines. You are free to believe that parents and doctors who file reports there are mistaken in associating the damage with the vaccines given, but many people think that the association is real. Parents should inform themselves using information from many sources. I believe the information in the VAERS is usually authentic and relevant, but others may interpret it as they will.

    Like

  68. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    L,
    One of you guys said a week or two ago that there was no effective treatment for pertussis, giving this as a reason for getting the vaccine. If antibiotics and cough suppressants are ineffective and dangerous, what do you think an effective treatment for pertussis in babies would be? And again, I like Dr. Glockler, and have learned a lot from the information in her book over the years. You are free to view her as a crank if you wish, and everyone else is free to form their own opinion.

    Like

  69. ella
    August 31, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    L,
    You couldn’t actually think that I care about what you think of me. I wish only to provide civilians with more complete information than you offer here.

    Like

  70. Chris
    August 31, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    ella/cia, what must you read an understand before using the VAERS database from its official website? Please answer the question. You might try actually doing to the actual website and reading it (it is not sponsored by the FDA).

    Like

  71. lilady
    August 31, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    CIA Parker:

    “One of you guys said a week or two ago that there was no effective treatment for pertussis, giving this as a reason for getting the vaccine. If antibiotics and cough suppressants are ineffective and dangerous, what do you think an effective treatment for pertussis in babies would be?”

    Try this, CIA Parker

    http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/clinical/treatment.html

    “You couldn’t actually think that I care about what you think of me. I wish only to provide civilians with more complete information than you offer here.”

    (Translation) “You are all being mean to me, just because “my complete information” is not based on fact, derived from antivaccine websites and…I am unable to debate any of the scientific data that is offered here”

    Like

  72. Chris
    August 31, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Adding to lilady’s translation: “I am unable to debate any of the scientific data that is offered here… and refuse to click on links given to me!”

    Like

  73. lilady
    August 31, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Adding to Chris’ comment…about my translation…”I just might flounce off and send another sockie in, to *impress you*”.

    Like

  74. Lara Lohne
    September 1, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    *snicker*

    Like

  75. lilady
    September 1, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    @ Lara: It’s called tit-for-tat…for all the vile scurrilous accusations she has hurled at you 🙂

    Like

  76. Lara Lohne
    September 1, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    @lilady yeah well, if her accusations had any merit other then to make my laugh, I might find her accusations insulting. As it is, I just find them, well, laughable. I do find it incredibly interesting how she feels the need to defend herself so vehemently when she is caught lying, but instead of convincing us of the truth of her statements she is only ever caught in more lies. And even though we know she is lying, she continues to come here and spread the same lies over and over again. Talk about a one trick pony.

    Like

  77. lilady
    September 1, 2012 at 4:00 pm
  78. Lara Lohne
    September 1, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    @lilady, nope, hadn’t seen it. Thanks for sharing though. It’s really good to know that she’s getting public scrutiny on her craziness and her lies. It’s only a matter of time before the actual cause/causes of autism are known without a doubt, we are well on our way to finding that last piece of the puzzle. When that happens, and the data show vaccines play no part, what then will the anti-vaccine people start claiming as their new poster disease from vaccines? It’s always going to be something. It hasn’t changed any in two centuries, other then the claims made by those members of this old cult.

    Something I just had a thought about, the numbers from the CDCs latest report are 1 in 88 children born in 2004. But that number wasn’t only autistic disorder but ASD in general, which are not actually the same thing, but a myriad of different disorders, some of which can definitely be linked to a genetic cause (E.g. Rett’s Syndrome). It includes those diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, PDD-NOS, childhood disintigrative disorder as well as all the differing functionality levels of autistic disorder itself; high functioning, mild, moderate, severe and profound autism. I am wondering which of all the disorders that fall under ASD is more commonly diagnosed. If it’s AS or PDD-NOS, these are the ones that, like their parents or aunts/uncles would have been overlooked at learning disabled or ‘quirky’ when they were children because the diagnostic criteria we have now allow for those disorders also under the ASD umbrella.

    There is real information available out there, all over the place, relating to autism, ASD and what causes it and the research currently being done toward finding the actual cause. Those like cia are so intrenched in the anti-vaccine mindset that they can’t see past the vaccine demon they have created. It really makes me sad for the children of those parents. The ‘treatments’ they are subjected to, all in the name of ‘curing’ their child of something that was determined months before they were born. These poor children will never become what they were meant to become because their parents are too busy trying to fix them, that they miss all the already amazing strengths and abilities these children have. I am so glad that my son wasn’t vaccinated on schedule, because if he had been, it probably would have been really easy for me to fall back down the anti-vaccine rabbit hole, and I might not have been able to get back out, and my son is the one who would have suffered for it.

    Like

  79. Grumpygirl
    September 3, 2012 at 2:59 am

    Honestly, I think we’re going to eventually find the real causes of ASD fall more along the lines of the theories in this piece: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/immune-disorders-and-autism.html

    I guess this is mostly for Ella, as I suspect the rest of you don’t need me to say it for you to figure it out. As I mentioned earlier, I’m 39 years old. I’m a full-grown, mature adult that can tolerate the side effects of the 2 cough suppressants I’ve been taking in rather high doses. I cannot imagine a baby or even a child being able to take the doses I’ve needed to just be able to go to work every day. Anyone with any sort of science education whatsoever would be able to figure out that adult human beings are going to be able to tolerate higher doses of medications whereas babies and children would not be able to take the same amounts. As it is, I’m barely able to handle the side effects from the doses of benzonatate & tussionex that actually stop the coughing. Who knows, I might have a higher tolerance for the drugs than most. It’s not like there are a lot of doctors out there that consider themselves experienced in treating patients with whooping cough. Most of them where I live barely recognize it for what it is. I don’t really consider these cough suppressants to be viable effective treatments for most people that get sick with pertussis. I’m also going to make the educated guess (based on science reasoning) that babies and children are more likely to develop secondary infections that an otherwise healthy adult that is also not elderly. Adults of the species have more lung capacity and a stronger immune system and if we’re healthy, we’re not going to be at high risk of catching lots of secondary pathogens.

    As far as I can see, the vaccine is our best bet. Among the people I know that have had whooping cough, the ones never vaccinated have been the sickest. The ones recently vaccinated either didn’t get sick or only for a few weeks. Then there’s people like me that were vaccinated 10+ years ago. We tend to get pretty darn sick, but not quite as bad as people that never got the vaccine in their lives. (This is just the pattern I have noticed where I live.) I have my doubts about how effective this acellular vaccine is, but it’s all we have right now and seems to be more effective than none at all. If I could go back in time and get another “whole-cell” vaccine, you’d better believe I would.

    Like

  80. lilady
    September 3, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    @ Grumpygirl: There’s a whole “back story” to the alleged *vaccine-induced encephalopathy* and the discontinuing of the whole cell pertussis vaccine…in favor of the acellular DTaP vaccine.

    Read here how parents of children with an as yet undiagnosed genetic disorder, alleged that DTP vaccine caused their children’s developmental disabilities…and how they were compensated for those *vaccine injuries*:

    http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2011/02/24/dravet-syndrome-and-dtp.htm

    You could also search for additional studies of these supposed *vaccine-injured* children with Dravet Syndrome, by searching the internet with certain key phrases such as Dravet Syndrome Autism, Dravet Syndrome Vaccine Injuries, Dravet Syndrome DPT vaccine, etc.

    Like

  81. Chris
    September 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Grumpygirl, did you see analysis of that NYT opinion piece? Hmm, I just notices that she has added an analysis of the sources used by the piece’s author, I’m off to read it.

    Like

  82. Grumpygirl
    September 4, 2012 at 3:04 am

    To be honest, I’d take the whole-cell vaccine or give it to my child even if vaccine injuries really do happen. Perhaps no vaccine is 100% safe, but I’d like to know which diseases these vaccines prevent are 100% harmless. This one foray into “vintage diseases” has made me very determined not to get another one if I can possibly help it. I think about how sick and miserable I’ve been, I’ve seen how incredibly sick (and sometimes dead) whooping cough makes babies and children, and I’ve kept track of the numbers in this present epidemic. This is completely subjective, but when I “overlay” what I’ve experienced, seen, and know over the past statistics from when there was no vaccine, it’s enough to convince me that life with the vaccine is far preferable to life without it. I would go even further to say that I would gladly take the old, whole-cell vaccine – even with its stronger side effects – than this wimpy, acellular vaccine that doesn’t seem to last very long or provide immunity to all the strains of pertussis kicking around out there. Disease and illness will always be part of the human condition, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to let preventable illness seek me out like some sitting duck.

    More subjectivity here… I think about the difference between parents in the present and, say, parents from the generation of my own mom & dad (born in 1948 & 1944, respectively). I think of my dad particularly, who contracted every single “childhood illness” that existed in his era, with the sole exception of polio. Good grief, no wonder he & my mother dragged our behinds into the pediatrician’s office (sometimes kicking & screaming), even when they knew (from past experience) that we’d be feeling pretty sick for a week or so. (My brother & I always did after an installment of DPT or MMR.) I’m 39 and this is the first time in my life I’ve ever seen anything close to a real epidemic (yet a joke compared to the numbers in the past). Yeah, I’ve had chicken pox and several bouts of flu in my life, but they hardly compare to what humans had to endure in the past. If I am typical of parents today, I can see why they might be more worried about the unpleasant side effects of a vaccine than the disease itself and why parents would be so vulnerable to arguments in opposition of vaccination.

    Like

  83. Grumpygirl
    September 4, 2012 at 3:15 am

    Also, I’m not convinced that immune dysregulation/inflammation is at the heart of ASD. There isn’t enough evidence, and I find it hard to believe that something as complicated as ASDs originate simply from one “cause”. I agree with the author in Chris’ link in those respects. I hope more research is done. That said, I find those theories to be far more plausible than the idea that vaccinations cause ASDs. (Perhaps that’s just indicative of how ridiculous I find the notion that vaccines cause autism, LOL.)

    Like

  84. ella
    September 5, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    Grumpygirl,
    Have you read A Shot in the Dark? The true accounts of previously healthy children who reacted gruesomely to the DPT got it taken off the market. I can’t read it before I go to sleep, it gives me nightmares.
    I had measles and chickenpox as a child, so I wasn’t afraid of them for my daughter, who got whooping cough (though she’d been vaccinated) and chickenpox when I had shingles. I am happy that her immune system got the workout it did, and that she is now healthy in many ways.

    Like

  85. ella
    September 5, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    Grumpygirl,
    In the U.S. so far this year, 23,000 have had pertussis, with 13 deaths of newborns, who should have been quarantined at home. 22,987 have recovered with virtually lifetime immunity. I had it eleven years ago: of course it’s unpleasant, but I think it’s better than screwing up your immune system for life.

    Like

  86. ella
    September 5, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    The pertussis toxin breaks off the cilia that move mucus, so it takes more effort to cough the mucus out, resulting in the violent coughing. Why would you want to suppress the cough and keep the mucus in your lungs, where it can grow bacteria or viruses?

    Like

  87. ella
    September 5, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    L,
    I just saw the CDC link about pertussis treatment here, I looked at it the other day. It recommends antibiotics and sulfa drugs, but everyone knows that drugs do nothing to treat the disease once the coughing has started, since that means the cilia have been broken off, and there’s nothing to do but comfort measures until they grow back. They might prevent other people from catching it, but do not reduce the coughing.

    Like

  88. Lara Lohne
    September 5, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    ella, incorrect. The toxins from pertussis do not break off the cilia, it paralyzes them. There is also no mucus in pertussis. The only time anything came out of me when I had it was when I coughed so hard I threw up. There was nothing to cough up, therefore there is nothing wrong with suppressing a cough that has no purpose. It is not a productive cough like you would have with a chest cold or the flu. There is no mucus produced. Stop spreading your misinformation, nobody believes you.

    Like

  89. Lara Lohne
    September 5, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    You are telling us stuff we already know. No antibiotics will not help a pertussis cough go away, because it is the toxins from the bacteria that PARALYZE the cilia (not break them off) but antibiotics can kill the bacteria so you aren’t spreading it to other people. Why do you feel the need to spam different posts with the same information?

    Like

  90. Quokka
    September 5, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    For goodness sake Ella – you are descending into the ridiculous now – the 13 deaths were because parents didn’t quarantine at home? – babies are part of families – families with older siblings that attend school and parents/carers that go to work. Not are you only wrongly blaming the parents for the death of thier child because they failed to quarantine you are setting a nonsensical standard on people.

    Like

  91. Lara Lohne
    September 5, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    Quokka, nonsensical is about all ella can do.

    Like

  92. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 10:39 am

    I am not blaming the parents. I had no idea when my daughter was born that I should quarantine her at home if there were any pertussis cases in town in her first months. So I didn’t quarantine her. I got her the DTaP at 2, 4, 6, and 18 months (the last one wiped out her only two words, and it may be that the first ones contributed to her language delay, but I don’t know that for sure). She caught pertussis anyway at a La Leche League meeting when she was 8 months old, and gave it to me. It never even entered my mind that it might not be wise to take her into a group of many babies and toddlers. Most parents now are still the way I was then, because the medical establishment has not yet started recommending the quarantine of young babies during outbreaks of pertussis.

    If a baby were quarantined at home, his or her siblings should not be allowed to enter the room where the baby slept (again, only necessary if there is any pertussis in town). Only a person with a mask and gloves, or a person who has had the natural disease, should care for the baby. Obviously this would be inconvenient, and it would usually be enough to have a small number of caretakers who didn’t use a mask, but were careful not to handle the baby if they were getting sick with any respiratory ailment.

    Are you saying it’s enough if everyone around the baby gets the Tdap? You know that a huge number of vaccinated people get and transmit pertussis anyway, so I can’t see that your idea is better than mine, except from the standpoint of selling the vaccine.

    Like

  93. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 10:46 am

    No one has commented on the fact that both of the mothers in the posted “debate” on getting the pertussis vaccine for their children strongly believed that it was dangerous and often caused serious side effects. Is this because you don’t want to insult the women? They were both upper-middle-class, intelligent women, and they both had a lot of doubts as to the safety of vaccines. One of them caved to pressure from her less-informed husband, and the other one didn’t.

    Like

  94. Chris
    September 6, 2012 at 10:54 am

    If a baby were quarantined at home, his or her siblings should not be allowed to enter the room where the baby slept (again, only necessary if there is any pertussis in town). Only a person with a mask and gloves, or a person who has had the natural disease, should care for the baby. Obviously this would be inconvenient,

    And unrealistic. It would be better to boost the herd immunity in the general population by encouraging all adults and adolescents to get a Tdap, and to reduce vaccine exemptions for all children.

    Like

  95. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:05 am

    There is always mucus circulating in the respiratory system. Hilary Butler, Just a Little Prick, p. 109:
    “Antibiotics don’t make the disease better, and can sometimes make it worse. (Tozzi, A.E. et al 2003 “Clinical Presentation of Pertussis in Unvaccinated and Vaccinated Children in the First Six Years of Life,”Pediatirics Nov. 112(5)1069-75.
    Farizo, K.M. et al 1992 “Epidemiological Features of Pertussis in the US 1980-1989″Clinical Infectious Diseases Vol. 14:708-19.
    Mertsola, J. et al, 1983 “Intrafamilial spread of pertussis”J. Pediatrics Sep 103(3) 359-63.)

    The above three studies have related the use of antibiotics to the prolongation of symptoms. The 2003 and 1992 studies both mentioned that children treated with antibiotics have a longer duration of cough than those not given antibiotics. They reasoned that: “äntibiotic treatment was found to be a marker of severe disease.”
    I don’t accept this reasoning, because I’ve seen children with mild cases of whoooping cough being given antibiotics and within 24 hours the coughing will become substantially worse…
    Whooping cough is a toxin-mediated disease, which means that the symptoms you see and hear are caused partly by the toxin released from the bacteria sticking to the hairs in the bronchials. The toxin cuts off the hair in the bronchials. Normally the mucus in the lungs and bronchials circulates around, being swept up the bronchials by those cilia that the toxin cut off, then moving down into the stomach where stomach acid deals with potentially problematic bacteria. This steady circulation of mucus out of the lungs is important to keep the lung mucus surfaces healthy and stop bacteria multiplying and causing infections.
    With the hairs in the bronchials being gradually chopped off as bacteria numbers increase, the mucus from the lungs comes to the base of the bronchials, and then the problem occurs, because there are fewer cilia, and they don’t cope as well with moving the mucus upwards. Mucus starts to pool at the bottom, and interferes with breathing so the child starts to cough to move it up. As more hairs are cut off, mucus pools more, and coughing it up gets harder, and takes more coughs, as the body tries to get the excess up, so that the mucus in the lungs can be replaced. The pertussis toxin also irritates the bronchials and increases and thickens mucus production.

    Like

  96. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Butler, p. 109-110: “The antibiotic used for whooping cough is erythromycin, which indiscriminately kills gut flora and other toxin producing bacteria in the body. …It is well-known in medical literature that if you try to treat e-coli problems with antibiotics you make the problem worse, because the bacterial die-off in the gut means that the bacterial envelopes (which are the toxin) become a huge source of curlin, or endotoxin, which the liver then has to get rid of. …If you give antibiotics to a child who has substantial levels of gram negative bacteria in their gut flora, such as formula-fed babies, or children who have taken several courses of antibiotics, and who are also processing whooping cough endotoxin via the liver and antibodies in the blood, the antibodies will cause massive general bacteria die-off. Not just e-coli in the gut, but also other gram negative bacteria die. These other bacteria release their toxins into the body as well, placing a huge amount of extra stress on the liver and on the antibodies in the blood. I believe it is this general die-off that causes extra stress on the body when erythromycin or zithromax is prescribed, that makes some patients with whooping cough worse.
    So what are the options? High doses of Vitamin C have been written up in the medical literature of old by many doctors in the past, even surprisingly a Japanese doctor. (Professor Hattori 1936 “Concerning the vitamin C therapy of whooping cough,” Klinische Wochenscrift, Dec. 15(51):1884-1885.
    A pub med search showed many studies where Vitamin C was used successfully for treating endotoxemia from many types of gram negative bacteria. The medical professionn’s stonewalling of the use of sodium ascorbate (vit. C) for toxin neutrilization is paralleled by ignoring, until recently, the use of Vitamin A to reduce complications and deaths in measles, and other viral conditions which increase the body’s need for Vitamin A.”

    Like

  97. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Chris,

    Since 80-90% of those who have gotten pertussis in the US this year had been appropriately vaccinated, this would mean statistically that 80-90% of the infants who died of pertussis had gotten it from vaccinated people. You quarantined your son, who was unable to receive the pertussis vaccine (not that it would have protected him anyway as an infant, and possibly not when he was older either). I think that parents who love their children would be willing to come up with a plan to protect their babies at least for the four or five months when pertussis is the most likely to kill them. It will be good for society when there are more people who have natural immunity from having had the disease who could work as caretakers in the home of young infants. People who could not afford either to have the mother stay at home with the baby for four months or hire a caretaker to do so would have to look for a grandmother or neighbor to do so, preferably someone who had recovered from the natural disease, otherwise someone willing to use a mask and gloves either all the time, or only when they seemed to be geting sick.

    Your method would not prevent newborns from becoming sick through exposure to the huge number of people appropriately vaccinated, but who did not derive disease protection from the vaccine. Again, CDC doctor Anne Schuchat said several weeks ago that the current outbreak which has sickened 23,000 in the US so far this year can not be blamed on the unvaccinated, since 80-90% of those getting and transmitting the disease had been appropriately vaccinated.

    Are you saying that you loved your son enough to quarantine him, but most people would not be willing to go to that trouble? I know that I would have been, had I been aware of the need to do so. We would need a national campaign similar to the Back to Sleep one twenty years ago, maybe federal subsidies could be diverted from the vaccine campaign and used to assist parents of newborns in paying for in-home caregivers.

    Like

  98. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Chris,
    And how would you reduce vaccine exemptions? You know that most exemptions that parents in most states take is the religious one. How can you violate the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religion?

    Like

  99. Grumpygirl
    September 6, 2012 at 11:44 am

    ella :
    The above three studies have related the use of antibiotics to the prolongation of symptoms. The 2003 and 1992 studies both mentioned that children treated with antibiotics have a longer duration of cough than those not given antibiotics. They reasoned that: “äntibiotic treatment was found to be a marker of severe disease.”
    I don’t accept this reasoning, because I’ve seen children with mild cases of whoooping cough being given antibiotics and within 24 hours the coughing will become substantially worse…

    Accept it or not, it makes perfect sense. The worsening of the conditions have nothing to do with the antibiotics. It’s the natural progression of the pertussis toxin paralyzing the cilia. It would have happened whether or not antibiotics were given. Without antibiotics, you’re contagious for almost a month. Maybe you can survive quarantined for a month in your little magical reality, but I don’t know of anyone of any age in my life that could.

    It figures that you would be one of those that refer to A Shot in the Dark, since you seem to elevate anecdotes to the status of gospel truth.

    God, we need better science education in this country…

    Like

  100. Quokka
    September 6, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Ella the time between exposure to the bacteria and onset of the illness can be up to 21days. Every pregnant woman would have to isolate herself 21 days prior to the first possible date of delivery just to make sue she wasn’t already exposed but not yet Ill. It is simply nonsense to promote quarantine above the protection of vaccination and herd immunity.

    Like

  101. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Except that the vaccine is dangerous and often doesn’t give any protection. Babies for the first four to six months derive no protection at all from the vaccine, but it does more than double their risk of asthma at seven compared to starting the series with at least a two month delay. Children who don’t get it at all have a MUCH lower risk of ever getting asthma or allergies, sometimes fatal diseases.

    There are no certainties, no one safe choice that will protect you. As we’ve seen this year from the pertussis outbreaks in most of the states, herd immunity is nonsense. It wouldn’t be 100% guaranteed protection, but for my money quarantine is the way to go!

    Like

  102. ella
    September 6, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Science education will numb us to the suffering of children? We’re just supposed to march in the ranks of the Vaccine Army, and if it kills us, we’ve died for the Cause? Great, you don’t care about the babies who got the DPT and started vomiting and having severe diarrhea the same day, slowly get colder and colder, tried to suck on a bottle but started vomiting, their pupils dilated, they had seizures, and then died. Fortunately there were a lot of people who were moved by the true accounts documented in this book, as well as the statistical and scientific information on the pertussis vaccine included in it. They forced the vaccine off the market, even though it was more effective against pertussis than the new DTaP. So, you’d like to bring back the old DPT, because you regret that you are inconvenienced by having the disease? And you’d do so even if you had to climb to the top of the mountain of dead and brain-damaged children felled by the DPT? The author Barbara Loe Fisher’s son was severely damaged by the DPT, but as long as you’re not hurt or inconvenienced by it, you want everyone else to get it?

    Like

  103. Chris
    September 6, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    Why should we care about what you say, ella/cia? You seem to just make it up as you go along.

    Like

  104. Kelly
    September 7, 2012 at 12:28 am

    ella :
    Except that the vaccine is dangerous and often doesn’t give any protection. Babies for the first four to six months derive no protection at all from the vaccine, but it does more than double their risk of asthma at seven compared to starting the series with at least a two month delay. Children who don’t get it at all have a MUCH lower risk of ever getting asthma or allergies, sometimes fatal diseases.
    There are no certainties, no one safe choice that will protect you. As we’ve seen this year from the pertussis outbreaks in most of the states, herd immunity is nonsense. It wouldn’t be 100% guaranteed protection, but for my money quarantine is the way to go!

    From your own account, you and your daughter suffered horribly from pertussis and you still wish that on other people. I know you don’t think severe coughing for months at a time is a big deal, but you are also insane and delusional.

    The disease is way more dangerous than the vaccine, and you are OK with children suffering from the disease. You are OK with newborns dying from pertussis. The disease also doesn’t give any protection and you are OK with that too.

    Except that the vaccine does offer protection and the adverse effects you are attributing to the vaccine aren’t real. There are no deaths attributed to the vaccine, but there are plenty of deaths caused by the disease.

    It has also been explained to you numerous times why quarantine won’t work. You claim your daughter got pertussis because you took her out to a public place. If you can’t even follow your own advice, why do you think other people should?

    Like

  105. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 11:25 am

    The two mothers in the Debate video did not really debate at all. They both knew that the pertussis vaccine was dangerous and didn’t want to give it to their children. You don’t think it’s dangerous because all you have to do when you hear or read of an adverse reaction from it is say “No, it didn’t.” I took my baby to a La Leche League meeting because, in January 2001, I was uninformed on the disease and vaccines issue. I said that most parents now are like I was then. If she had been a newborn at that time, I probably would have taken her anyway, and she might have caught pertussis, had a severe case, and maybe even died (it is said that as many as one in a hundred newborns who get it die, though many say that that figure is higher than is accurate). I didn’t realize the danger then. I do now.

    Life is tough for everyone. I believe that catching the usually mild, formerly routine diseases is wiser than getting the vaccines for them. Yeah, it’s unpleasant being sick, but it educates and strengthens your immune system, and gives you long-lasting or permanent immunity. And you avoid the often permanent damage that the vaccines often cause.

    Why have you guys not torn the women in the debate to pieces for daring to say they believed the pertussis vaccine was dangerous, and didn’t want to give it to their children?

    Like

  106. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 11:26 am

    It is fine if you don’t care about what I say, Chris, in fact I would be insulted if you did.

    Like

  107. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 11:28 am

    And, if you want to take away the right of children who claim a religious exemption to attend school in the absence of an outbreak of disease, all I can say is that you have your work cut out from you. There would be a huge and insurmountable public backlash.

    Like

  108. September 7, 2012 at 11:33 am

    @ella – wow, well, there are already two states that don’t allow for religious exemptions from vaccines…and I don’t see people up in arms. As to your other statement that vaccines “often” cause permanent damage isn’t supported by the facts, the science, or even plain common sense.

    You are doing yourself a disservice by repeating such badly told lies.

    Like

  109. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    The state legislatures in West Virginia and Mississippi this year considered legislation requested by popular demand that a religious or philosophical exemption to shots be made available to parents. It was shot down by the influence of pharma lobbyists, but I’m sure we haven’t heard the last of these parents.

    I will continue to tell the truth until I’m in my grave.

    Like

  110. Nathan
    September 7, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Why have you guys not torn the women in the debate to pieces for daring to say they believed the pertussis vaccine was dangerous, and didn’t want to give it to their children?

    Because I can’t be upset with people who have been fooled. I get upset with the people doing the fooling. Ella, you are both.

    Like

  111. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    And no one wants to say that the two moms in the video were stupid and evil for believing that the pertussis vaccine often damaged people and they were both afraid to get it for their children? I dare you!

    Like

  112. Nathan
    September 7, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    The state legislatures in West Virginia and Mississippi this year considered legislation requested by popular demand that a religious or philosophical exemption to shots be made available to parents. It was shot down by the influence of pharma lobbyists, but I’m sure we haven’t heard the last of these parents.

    “Considering legislation” represents “a huge and insurmountable public backlash?”

    Like

  113. ella
    September 7, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    The moms (at least the braver one) were equivalent to me. You just pick your prey on the grounds of political correctness.

    Like

  114. September 7, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @Nathan – ah, ella & the “truth.” Once again, she shows her true colors, that her beliefs constitute a “religion” and she will never be swayed, regardless of all of the evidence that shows that her “emperor” has no clothes.

    Like

  115. Alyson
    September 9, 2012 at 12:05 am

    My sweet baby was one of the lucky ones. She contracted Pertussis at 2.5 months and barely survived. Pertussis is a living nightmare hell. She spent 7 of 11 wks in the hospital, and many of those days were spent in the Ped ICU. The secretions were so thick that tubes had to be repeatedly inserted to suction her lungs so she could breathe. She had to be on an apnea monitor and watched 24/7 for 3 months to keep her breathing. It is a horror that no baby should have to endure. My heart goes out to Brady’s parents and so many others who have lost their infants to this deadly disease.

    Like

  116. ella
    September 9, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Alyson,
    I’m sorry your baby had such a rough time with pertussis. I wish that you had been told about the importance of quarantining a baby that young to protect her from pertussis. My baby got the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months (unfortunately) but caught the disease anyway when she was 8 months old, appropriately vaccinated like 80-90% of those catching the disease now. She had already been damaged by the hep-B at birth, but had acquired two words by the age of 18 months, uh for up and uff for dog, both of which were wiped out immediately after the 18-month DTaP booster. She didn’t say another word until 34 months old, and was diagnosed with autism at 20 months of age. The vaccine is both dangerous and has a very high failure rate. 23,000 have had pertussis so far in the US this year, and there have been 13 deaths among them, all of newborn babies similar to yours. But statistically 80-90% of those babies died because they were exposed to someone who had been appropriately vaccinated and incorrectly thought they couldn’t transmit it.

    Like

  117. ella
    September 9, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    Nathan,
    You saw the backlash in Vermont a few months ago, parents were up in arms to defend their right to refuse vaccination for their children in school, and the legislature caved to these large and committed numbers of constituents, having thought they could cave to pharma lobbyists with little opposition.

    Like

  118. anne
    September 10, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    From The Portable Pediatrician, Drs. Sears, p. 540: “Whooping cough is serious because it produces a thick, copious mucus that plugs little airways and compromises breathing. This excess mucus causes the characteristic cough and whoop. The child coughs to dislodge the mucus plugs from his little airways. Coughing escalates into a 15 to 30 second bout of increasingly forceful coughs, with each cough pushing th emucus higher so it can be coughed out or swallowed. At the end of the coughing spell, the child is so hungry for air that he quickly takes a catch-up breath, produciing a whooping sound. Then the child rests and seems well for an hour or so. The mucus reaccumulates and dthe whooping cycle starts all over again.”

    Like

  119. Gray Falcon
    September 10, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    Ella, do I need to explain basic algebra to you again? If the large majority of people are vaccinated, then the most of the people getting the disease will the vaccinated, even if the vaccine is 80% or 90% effective. Stop repeating that line, it’s dishonest. Do you really think such dishonest tactics convince people?

    Like

  120. Chris
    September 10, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Gray, she has changed her name again. Do you really think cia/ella/anne would even attempt honesty?

    This must be the fourth or fifth name change she has tried to use those old tired arguments with. All we can do now is point out her previous names, and tell folks that they were demolished again. There is no reason for us to repeat ourselves when she sets the “reset” button.

    Like

  121. Grumpygirl
    September 10, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    Deliriant isti Sockpuppeti!

    Like

  1. January 28, 2013 at 12:35 pm

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