Home > Get Involved, Parent Perspective > The Makings of A Vaccine Advocate

The Makings of A Vaccine Advocate

Recently I’ve had to completely withdraw from my online activities to focus on a major transition at home.  As I’ve dealt with the chaos of moving five children and a dog to a new home in a new state, I’ve had to accept that the demands of being a military spouse and mother often interfere with my efforts to advocate for vaccines…(or so I thought).

Today, after almost two weeks of very limited connectivity, I sat down at my computer and began the daunting task of “catching up” on several weeks worth of vaccine related news.

First, I discovered that my blog followers are capable of keeping a conversation going for much longer than anyone would reasonably expect.  There are still comments coming in on old blog posts and despite the occasional off-topic sidebars and insults, there are several loyal commentors who continually impress me with their knowledge and commitment to the cause.

Then, a quick look at the current immunization news confirmed that the whooping cough epidemic remains a major health concern, and I was saddened to hear of the loss of a two month old infant in my new state of North Carolina.

Even the heavily debated issue of school vaccine requirements is garnering a lot of attention as kids prepare to head back to school.  California is just one of many states that is considering legislative changes to the personal belief exemption process and it’s important to note that the new laws are not interfering with parents rights to get an exemption – only how the exemption process will work.

Then I came across a post from Katie Ellis on the Moms Who Vax blog.  It was at that moment that I recognized how comforting it is to be part of a larger online community.  I realized how my small efforts to generate immunization discussions on Shot of Prevention and Vaccinate Your Baby have actually created a ripple effect over the past few years.  And while I may not have been able to participate much lately, there was still plenty of advocacy to be noted in my absence.

Katie writes openly about how she has come to be a passionate vaccine advocate. Her professional background as a microbiologist was certainly a major catalyst, but she explains that not that long ago she was a science-minded mom who never really questioned vaccines.  In fact, she admits to being a bit unaware of the fact that there were parents who “were not vaccinating due to fear, uncertainty and doubt”.  However, after hearing Dr. Offit elaborate on the history and impact of the anti-vaccine movement, Katie was called to get involved.

“I started to peruse pro-vaccine blogs, such as Shot of Prevention, and Facebook pages, such as Vaccinate Your Baby and Nurses Who Vaccinate.  Amazed by the depth of knowledge of the active pro-vaccine advocates on those pages, I was deeply inspired – and my passion grew.”

I have had the great pleasure of getting to know Katie through various social media connections for over a year now.  And I recall sharing my enthusiasm for the Moms Who Vax blog with Shot of Prevention readers when it had first launched.  I loved the idea of mothers sharing their personal stories.  Mothers who, for one reason or another, were passionate and proud of their choice to vaccinate their children.  However, it wasn’t until I read Katie’s comments today that I realized that the makings of a vaccine advocate are grounded in the community that we are a part of.

We are more than just individuals trying to make a difference.  We are a community of concerned people who are working towards the same purpose.  Our success does not depend on whether one individual can write a blog post or respond to a Facebook comment that week or not.  Our success is a culmination of efforts that try to help parents dispel the myths, conquer the fears and understand the science behind the vaccines so that they will help protect their children and their communities from infectious diseases.

By engaging with a community of advocates, Katie has naturally progressed from a concerned parent to an active participant in the online conversation, like so many of us have before.  I know that I can trace my steps back through my own advocacy, from concerned parent to Shot@Life Immunization Champion.  And even though I’ve been “off line” recently, I realize that my immunization conversations never really stopped.  I discussed immunizations with an elderly church member who is planning to travel abroad next month.  I reminded a friend about the importance of the meningitis vaccine for her daughter before she left for college.  I even had a conversation about the importance of Tdap boosters with the school staff members when I  enrolled my children in their new schools.

Now, as my neighbors have come to welcome me with banana bread, fruit baskets and potted plants, I’m reminded of the support that is offered within a community.  Tonight, as I accept a dinner invitation from a new friend, I will go knowing that while I may not be online to respond to some unsubstantiated claim about a vaccine safety concern, someone else will be.  And tomorrow will be another day where I can try to make a difference.

So I’m curious to know what kinds of experiences have inspired you to join the immunization conversation?  And what recent vaccine related conversations have you had with your neighbors in your community?

  1. Lara Lohne
    August 22, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Aside from vaccinations just making more sense then suffering through a disease that has the high probability of killing you, since my youngest son was diagnosed with autism and the fact that he was not vaccinated prior to his symptoms manifesting, and the number of anti-vaccine people who are trying to convince the world, even without any science to back them up, that vaccines are the cause of autism, I feel an obligation to let people know about my son. He has autism, he was not vaccinated prior to us realizing what was going on (even though looking back I can now see the signs of it from birth) and it’s important that people are aware of that. Autism is not only cropping up in those who are vaccinated. In fact even one of the more prominent names in the anti-vaccine groups has a child with autism who was not vaccinated, yet she still claims it was a vaccine that caused the autism.

    I’m not entirely sure if anything will convince the anti-vaccine people. My mom was never convinced, even though all of her unvaccinated children, who have children thus far, have opted to vaccinated their own children. If a child is going to have autism, they will with or without vaccination. However, the vaccinations given may mean the different between life for the child with autism and suffering and/or death from a VPD. I don’t even want to imagine a child with sensory processing disorder with chicken pox. That is cruel to make a neurotypical child go through, for an autistic it would be akin to torture or cruel and unusual punishment.

    Aside from the autism argument though, it just makes more sense to vaccinate then to not. I am curious to know how many measles cases will sprout up as a result of exposure to it in Briton during the Olympics. There is so much more about vaccines that I didn’t know and I enjoy reading the links on studies and vaccine information posted by my fellow commenters. Even though ones from anti-vaccine people have been highly entertaining at times. My greatest concern is for the unvaccinated who can’t get vaccinated for whatever reason there might be. How many of them would like to be vaccinated if they could be? It would be interesting to know those statistics I think. Does anyone have that information at hand?

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  2. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    @ Lara Lohne: I don’t really know the numbers of people who have contraindications to live vaccines, but you can find many of the contraindications here:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/genrec.html

    Like

  3. Alana
    August 22, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Wonderful post! I have been blogging for The Immunization Partnership (http://theimmunizationpartnership.wordpress.com/) since March and love hearing from fellow pro vaccine bloggers. As a community health major I understood the importance of vaccines, but it became real after working at a cancer hospital and watching patients die from vaccine-preventable diseases because they were unable to be vaccinated due to their compromised immune systems. It was tragic. I became a true advocate once I became a Mom. I wanted to do everything to protect my children. Unfortunantly, my children were unvaccinated against rotavirus (not by choice) and my youngest ended up severely dehydrated and hospitalized for 4 days. Talk about a reason to spread the word about the importance of vaccines!
    I have actually had many discussions lately with my sister-in-law who is vaccine hesitant and has opted for a delayed vaccination schedule. It’s scary to know that my little nephew is unprotected. We have open and honest conversations, and while she did speed up his vaccines after my children were diagnosed with rotavirus, he is still not up-to-date.
    It’s great to be a part of an issue that is so important for all of us!

    Like

  4. Sharon
    August 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    I grew up in a time when people didn’t question vaccines. We saw the impact the protection of vaccines gives people right up close and personal (I grew up in Brooklyn 🙂 I am an older mom and never questioned vaccinating my daughter, partly because of this, partly because, like Lara, immunization just makes sense to me. And even though I know nothing in this world is 100% safe, including vaccines, I believed they are more safe than not and made my choices based on that.

    I certainly understand where the questions come from that some people have today, not having had to deal with or see the suffering caused by childhood diseases that was more apparent back in the day, living in a time when it is more appropriate to question providers (rightly so), and at a time when there are few blind assumptions about knights in shining armor in the medical profession who always know exactly what they’re talking about. Not to mention the width and breadth of, um, interesting opinions about vaccines the media throws out there (shaken baby syndrome is really vaccine injury, for instance).

    These days there are few people, percentage-wise, who are truly anti-vaccination. There are also few who never question vaccines. There are many, many more people in the middle who just need their questions answered, ones that cannot be answered in a 15-minute well child appt. And frankly, I don’t think we’ve done that very well. There are still some “Just Do It” providers out there, who think anyone with a question must be one of “those” people. Not helpful. So I’m glad to see provider education around immunizations stepping up, because that is still where most people want their health information to come from. But providers need more help. We still have providers, in the middle of pertussis outbreaks around the country for instance, not testing for pertussis in infants and young children who present with that horrible cough! Just like everyone else, providers need access to the science and blogs like this one where knowledgeable people take on the myths, list reliable links, share their own experiences, etc. As well, I’m happy to see more and more journals geared toward providers taking on the issue of provider education.

    So, what inspires me to be part of the conversation? I am a health educator in immunizations for our county and have a chance to speak to parent groups about vaccines. And when I can talk to people who really want to know how vaccines work or about specific viruses, like Hepatitis B and the effects on our community that vaccine has had, I feel like I’m doing the right thing and continue to educate myself. When I can work with clinic staff to bring patient concerns back to providers I feel like part of the shift that is moving us in the right direction.

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  5. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    @ Christine Vara: We are all glad you are back. Weeks ago, I emailed the blog moderator twice about blatant violations of the comment policy, including filthy vile language and thread derailing repetitive posts. I deliberately stayed away from this blog, awaiting, in vain, a reply to my emails. Other “regulars” on this blog are avoiding it as well.

    When I returned to the blog several days ago, I have chosen to ignore the posts by the trolls.

    Could you now reply to my emails about enforcing the comments policy. Thank you.

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  6. Lara Lohne
    August 22, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Thanks for the info lilady! You’re awesome. Anytime I have a question you know exactly what to post for me.

    Like

  7. August 22, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    @Christine – glad to have you back. I hate moving & with a military family, I know that it happens more often than anyone would think (or want). You’re an inspiration & have encouraged me to become more active in my own community as well.

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  8. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @Lara
    I feel an obligation to let people know about my son. He was just fine until a vaccine triggered his Autism. There are different types of Autism, some have Autism at birth and some have regressive Autism, like my son. He was tested at two years old and had the vocabulary of a 5 year old, then after his MMR vaccination he regressed into Autism and lost speech and physical abilities. Just because with your son you saw signs of Autism at birth, doesn’t make it so for everybody. The explosion of Autism that is happening currently is mostly the regressive kind of Autism due to environmental factors such as vaccines, but there are many other contributors as well. For you to state that, “If a child is going to have autism, they will with or without vaccination.” is doing a huge discredit to humanity. You can have that belief if you want to, but it is not a fact. There is a genetic factor as well; these kids cannot purge toxins out of their bodies, if your son has those predispositions, then not vaccinating him any more possibily could help him.

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  9. August 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    @Joe – there is a mountain of evidence out there that you are wrong. Studies and research that have been cited here over and over again (and if you click on my name – it will take you to an excellent site that refutes the common anti-vaccine myths).

    There isn’t even evidence of an “explosion” of autism – given the recent study in the UK that showed approximately 1% of adults registered on the autism scale, close to the exact figure of children.

    Vaccines aren’t the cause – and the constant repetition of that lie isn’t going to change facts.

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  10. Father
    August 22, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Thank you for your efforts – as the father of an autistic child, I’m particularly aggravated at anti-vaccine myths.

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  11. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    @Lawrence
    There is a mountain of evidence that I am right, but let’s say I am wrong…. It is irresponsible to tell people, “If a child is going to have autism, they will with or without vaccination.” That is not a fact.

    If you don’t think there is an explosion of Autism, you are only fooling yourself.

    A vaccine did trigger my son’s Autism without a doubt, so you are mistaken.

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  12. Lawrence
    August 22, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    @Joe – if you are so convinced, you will be happy to provide your VAERS entry information and Vaccine Court Claim information as well, right?

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  13. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    @Lawrence
    Not going down that road with you. Open your mind Lawrence. You don’t know it all and there are endless possibilities.

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  14. August 22, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    @Joe – so you’ll refuse to provide any evidence to back up your claim? Why is that so like another particular commentator we’ve had here before? Could it be that Joe & this other person are one in the same?

    If you are convinced of your claim, please explain to us why you didn’t file a VAERS report or a claim with the Vaccine Court?

    We are certainly open-minded & there are plenty of possibilities around the causes of autism – it is just that vaccines have been researched and tested, over and over again, and even large population studies show no link between autism & vaccines (in fact, in some cases, vaccines can be shown to “prevent” autism over unvaccinated groups).

    But, as is said, you keep your mind too open, and your brain is going to fall right out.

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  15. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    @Larry
    We’ll just have to disagree on this one.

    Like

  16. August 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    @Joe – so evidence or a claim, huh?

    For someone who is so convinced, you certainly don’t seem to want to take advantage of a system set up specifically to help someone like you & your son.

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  17. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    @Larry
    I’ve said what I want to say here. And thank you for asking about my son as he is doing really well!

    Like

  18. Lawrence
    August 22, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    @Joe – nice deflection there.

    I do hope you son is well and you aren’t pursuing quack biomed treatments trying to make him better….

    And why didn’t you file a claim again?

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  19. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    @ Lawrence: Joe *seems to be* interested in what might have caused his child to be diagnosed with autism.

    Joe, why do you think the “regulars” post here? Many of us are health care professionals, some of us have children who have been diagnosed with ASDs (and other developmental disabilities). Some of us are actually health care professionals with children on the “Spectrum”.

    As a licensed health care professional (registered nurse) who worked as a public health nurse/clinician, and as the parent of a child (since deceased), born with a rare genetic disorder with pronounced autistic-like behaviors, I urge you to get yourself educated on the prevalence of autism, the changing DSM Diagnostic Criteria and diagnostic substitution and the impact of these factors, for what you label as the “autism epidemic”.

    Do not be deluded by anti-vaccine websites whose sole purpose is to destroy confidence in the public health system and to discredit safe vaccines which protect our children against serious, oftentimes deadly, vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Learn to deal with your child’s disabilities, learn how certain therapies including ABA might ameliorate some of your child’s behaviors. Learn some immunology and how vaccines protect our kids. Learn about the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable disease and for gosh sakes, climb off that fence you are sitting on. Your choice.

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  20. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @Larry
    And why are you condescending and assuming?

    Like

  21. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    @ Joe:

    And why are you condescending and assuming? Still sitting on that fence, eh?

    Like

  22. Lawrence
    August 22, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    @joe – I asked a simple question. I am sorry that you cannot back up any of your claims with actual evidence.

    You want us to believe the hoofbeat sounds we hear are unicorns, when we can plainly see they are horses.

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  23. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    @ Lara Lohne: You always ask some difficult questions…trying to *test me*, eh? 🙂

    On a personal note, I remember when Lara first posted on a science blog. She came with a brilliant inquisitive mind and became one of our most esteemed posters. The *regulars* on that blog miss her…but are delighted that she has evolved into an extraordinarily knowledgeable poster here.

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  24. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    @lil and Law
    Hope you two feel good about yourselves treating people the way you do. You must be insecure about something. I’m sure you are impressing everybody who is new to this site. I am not impressed, if you are the “loyal commentors” impressing Christine, she should consider finding other people to represent this site who can have a pleasant conversation and a little respect for each other.

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  25. Lawrence
    August 22, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    @joe – you have made an extraordinary claim, I am merely asking for simple evidence.

    If you didn’t file a claim with the vaccine court, why not?

    Why is that such a difficult question to answer?

    Like

  26. Joe
    August 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    @Larry
    It’s not an extraordinary claim…it is my story. I already told you I am not going down that road with you….it doesn’t lead anywhwere and is not worth the time of arguing with you about it.

    Like

  27. August 22, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    @Joe – that’s what I thought, your story doesn’t lead anyway (by your own words) and isn’t worth the electrons it is printed with.

    I am Bill Gates – that’s my story. Since evidence doesn’t matter, you’ll just have to take my word for it.

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  28. August 22, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    @Joe – you did make an extraordinary claim, since all of the evidence points away from vaccines being a cause for autism. Since you cannot provide any evidence at all, including a claim with the Vaccine Court, we are forced to judge you as an anti-vaccine troll who is here merely to throw out a sob story in an attempt to spread fear and mistrust.

    Come on, you can certainly do better than that, can’t you?

    And lastly, if you didn’t file a claim, why not?

    Like

  29. Chris
    August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    I advocate for vaccines because my son had seizures due to a now vaccine preventable disease. His speech disability and learning issues may or may not be related to the seizures. But they certainly did not help.

    I saw how much pain my kids had when they experience chicken pox, including my daughter who was only six months old (who was fully breastfed). I am also old enough to remember the pain of getting mumps, and knowing people affected by measles, polio, Hib, etc.

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  30. lilady
    August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Too bad Joe, that you come trolling here. I misjudged you and *assumed* you were a fence sitter.

    If you don’t provide us with some minimal information about your child’s *supposed* vaccine injuries…then we have to assume you reject science and are firmly in the camp of the anti-vaccine crowd.

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  31. Lara Lohne
    August 22, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    @Joe, My son also had regressive autism. He is my 6th child and that is most likely why I was able to see differences in him from birth. I just didn’t know what was causing those differences until after his diagnosis and I learned more about it. He was progressing normally, well ahead in certain areas for his age in fact, until he was about 12 months old and then slowly began to lose his skills and other more obvious signs of autism began to emerge. Based on what I have read, 40 – 60% of those with autism regress to some degree, and since more then 60% of the population currently gets vaccinations if vaccines were the cause of this regression, more then 60% would regress. That being the case, your statement is not logical.

    There isn’t an explosion of autism, it has always been there, most adults who have it weren’t diagnosed as children because then only the severely or profoundly autistic were recognized. Asperger’s was unheard of. Many of the adults that are now being diagnosed didn’t all of a sudden become autistic, they just finally have a label for what it is that has made so many things difficult for them to navigate throughout their life. Characteristics of autism being better defined as well as a significant rise in awareness has allowed these adults who were previously overlooked as ‘quirky’ or ‘weird’ or even nerdy, to finally have an answer. I personally feel it’s irresponsible of you to say they’re suffering isn’t real by saying that autism didn’t exist until now, which is a fabrication.

    There may be environmental factors that contribute to autism, but most of the research shows there is a strong genetic component and none of the research being conducted today shows any causal link between vaccines and autism. There is a huge misrepresentation by parents of autistic children from the anti-vaccine camp that they speak for all parents of autistic children and their parents. That just is not true. I am not the only parent that knows vaccines didn’t cause autism n my child. I know many, many more who’s children were unvaccinated and yet still developed autism. That is too many to be a mere coincidence. If your son has a legitimate vaccine injury, then seek compensation from the courts. But there isn’t any way that his autism was caused by a vaccine. It just doesn’t happen, science over decades has proved that over and over again. It’s time to accept that and move on. Your child can’t be cured because his brain is constructed differently. That is genetics, not vaccine damage.

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  32. Lara Lohne
    August 22, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    @lilady, I miss it there too. I had to reformat my hard drive and lost all my web site book marks and haven’t gotten an opportunity to go back. As you know, with my son, my time is limited so I’m not sure I’d be able to post to multiple blogs. I should go back though, I hear things have been interesting since I’ve been there. I need to find out if there’s a way to get email updates there like there is here, that would be helpful.

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  33. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 3:36 am

    Lawrence :
    @Joe – nice deflection there.
    I do hope you son is well and you aren’t pursuing quack biomed treatments trying to make him better….
    And why didn’t you file a claim again?

    Actually, since you appear a bit dim about taking hints, that was not a deflection. Joe’s comment highlights how you have the blinders on when it comes to vaccines. You all get on here (all of you ‘health professionals’ and concerned parents who feel it is your right to interfere with others parents’ choices) and preach your religion of vaccines, quote your studies that ask the wrong questions to avoid the wrong answers, ignore the studies that receive little publicity because they give the wrong answers for you, completely ignore conflicts of interest (unless it involves someone you wish to attack) and ignore the basic fact that the allopathic medical paradigm of modern medicine is failing. Joe is pointing out the obvious: The entire vaccine debate is supposed to be about children and health. You are so busy wanting to attack Joe that you have lost sight of the child! Despicable!!

    Aside from that, it has been shown several times on this site and elsewhere that a claim imade to the compensation panel will be summarily dismissed if it mentions the “A” word. However, the panel has paid out millions for claims of individual symptoms of ASD as long as the “A” word is not mentioned.

    Here is the problem in a nutshell with these arguments (and I applaud Joe for not being suckered in by you):

    You demand evidence that is accepted by the medical establishment, while completely ignoring the fact that the medical establishment itself, from research institutions to researchers to educators to ‘esteemed’ journals, are beholden to the for profit pharmaceutical industry. When doctors DO speak out against the dogmatic allopathic model they are ferociously attacked by the establishment. This is not because they are wrong, it is often because they may be right and to be right would be to derail the gravy train. Medical people fall into one of three categories; those who have been indoctrinated by the system and are unable to question what they have been ‘taught’ and will resist all information counter to their beliefs (cognitive dissonance), those who actually have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo (the Offitt factor) and those who have opened their minds to recognize that just because the CDC or FDA say it doesn’t make it so and go on to look for answers where ever that search may lead as opposed to the former types who ‘know’ the answer in advance and seek to build studies to support the pre-ordained conclusion.

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  34. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 3:43 am

    lilady :
    Too bad Joe, that you come trolling here. I misjudged you and *assumed* you were a fence sitter.
    If you don’t provide us with some minimal information about your child’s *supposed* vaccine injuries…then we have to assume you reject science and are firmly in the camp of the anti-vaccine crowd.

    Just out of curiosity, do you work for CNN or Fox? Your non-sequitor attempt to say that if Joe doesn’t wish to share his child’s case file with you than he has made up the story and that people who reject vaccine propaganda and flawed studies somehow reject science reek of a tabloid journalist, not a science minded individual. How can any rational person take anything you say seriously with regards to evaluating evidence when you can not even create a logical sequential argument not directly related to science? Study logic and you will see that your issue with Joe is that you are saying A=B and C=D therefore A=D. It is not valid and not rational.

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  35. August 23, 2012 at 5:48 am

    @Steve – my irony meter just exploded…..how many studies have you ignored because they don’t tell you what you want to hear (that vaccines cause autism, because they don’t).

    You see a conspiracy behind every corner & only with the worst in junk science, poorly designed and implemented studies, and studies fill with their own massive COI (think Wakefield, for example) even begin to show what you want to hear.

    And Joe’s story is worse than disingenuous, because he makes an extraordinary claim (since none of the scientific evidence backs it up) without giving us any reason in the world to even begin to believe him. He could easily provide a VAERS entry – no personal information is revealed (you know, we have something called HIPAA that prevents that) – and certainly no answer to a simple question – did he file a claim with the Vaccine Court.

    Heck, that question is simple yes or no – with a simple follow-up as to why he might not have filed a claim. There have been a number of legitimate claims paid – of course, people will try to use that as a knock against vaccines – but every day more car insurances claims are paid than all the vaccine claims ever filed, but you don’t see us demanding to remove cars from the road.

    Steve – we have actual evidence, you know, facts, that show that the vaccine program has been hugely successful in reducing “incidence” of childhood diseases. Side-effects are well known, and those vanishingly small severe side-effects are carefully investigated and acted upon – the reason we have VAERS as a start, plus the CDC long-term vaccine surveillance program (which the anti-vaxers seem to always forget exists), plus the companies themselves who are required to track any severe reactions and report them (and as much as it might burn you, these companies are all made up of people, people who do care & aren’t part of some big conspiracy to harm children).

    What is good in general, is that despite the “volume” of the anti-vaccine crowd, their effect is still very limited. Vaccine rates are either steady or on the increase in most areas – while anti-vaccine proponents are creating their own little disease pockets by grouping themselves together in limited geographical areas.

    This is both good and bad – because we know that these pockets and people are the cause of the vast majority of outbreaks, particularly of diseases like Measles and Mumps. I am also very interested to see how an anti-vaccine pregnant mother would react, if she (if unvaccinated) caught rubella & had a child born with congenital birth defects…..somehow, the anti-vaccine crowd doesn’t like to talk about the tens of thousands of children that were either born with severe defects or died during the last major outbreak of rubella. That number alone dwarfs the number of severe side-effects ever registered as part of the vaccine surveillance program.

    See Steve, we deal with facts, not innuendo – and if the body of evidence shows us something different, we carefully evaluate / replicate and resolve – sine the early 1990’s there have been countless studies involving vaccines, research by government, corporate, educational, and international bodies – none of whom have been able to show what you want to see – so I guess we can chock that all up to some HUGE conspiracy…..or maybe, instead of unicorns, they really are horses and your pet theories don’t hold water, at all.

    People complain about “Big Pharma & Profits” – what do you think would be more profitable Steve….a vaccine to prevent Measles, Mumps and Rubella, or a drug or treatment for them – that would probably also involve a visit to the hospital for a significant number of those people?

    You’re in the pocket of “Big Disease” Steve – the doctors and hospitals must love you and your kind, because all you are doing is giving them more patients, filling more beds – if anyone here is a shill, it is you – because we can prove that your activities are making these organizations more money, unlike you, who has no evidence or facts to back up your claims.

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  36. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Joe,
    Many of those of us who post here know that you are right, many of us (including me and my family) have been vaccine-damaged and have autistic children who reacted to vaccines. Try not to let the people here get you down, dismissing true-life accounts of people reacting to vaccines with extreme adverse reactions is what they do. Lawrence asks everybody if they have filed in Vaccine Court, ignoring the fact that it has the shortest statute of limitations of any court, two years, when infants who react to vaccines often do not display recognizable symptoms of autism until they are well over two years old. He ignores the fact that the Vaccine Court has been instructed to dismiss claims that a vaccine caused autism, because the government fears both that it would bankrupt the country paying compensation to the hundreds of thousands of children who reacted to vaccines with autism, and that such evidence of harm would convince even more parents to forgo vaccination. It is praiseworthy of you to try to make others aware of what happened to your son and why, and know that a lot of people who read the comments on this site are on your side. If you read the old articles and comments on this site, which I think started in the H1N1 fall of 2009, you will see a long long history of the same people insulting and dismissing the experience of many of the vaccine-damaged. Do you read Age of Autism and The Refusers.com? If you get depressed at your Cassandra role here, you’ll find comfort and reinforcement there.

    Like

  37. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Lawrence,
    OK, let’s talk about rubella. It’s a harmless disease in adults, children, and infants alike: and usually confers permanent immunity, the only group at risk of harm from the natural disease being fetuses in the first months of development, a number of whom may develop birth defects (congenital rubella syndrome) as a result of exposure to the disease. This number is less than 25% in the first three months of pregnancy, about 15% in the fourth month, and very rare in the fifth month, Obviously no one to cause birth defects in their baby, which is why I (misguidedly) took the MMR vaccine when I was in my twenties, not knowing then of the dangers of vaccines.
    The vaccine was introduced in 1969, but after peaking in 1964-5, the number of cases of CRS had plummeted in the years before it was introduced. 11 cases in 1966, 10 in 1967, 14 in 1968. In 1969, the year the vaccine was introduced, the number went up to 31. In 1970 the CDC reported that it went up to 77 (a 600% increase over pre-vaccine years). 68 cases in 1971, and figures remained around this high in subsequent years.
    The vaccine causes arthritis in many of its recipients. In 1969 the New England Journal of Medicine pubished a study documenting arthritis after rubella vaccination. Gold, J.A. “Arthritis after rubella vaccination of women,” July 10, 1969, 281(2):109.
    American Journal of Diseases of Childhood. Study showing 10% of children developed joint problems after rubella vaccination. Spruance, S.L. 1971; 122:105-111.
    American Journal of Epidemiology. 25% of women in their 20s, 50% of women between 25 and 33, had joint problems after rubella vax. Austin, S.M. (Jan 1972)95(1053-58.
    Journal of Pediatrics: recurrent joint problems in babies starting 2-7 weeks after rubella vax. Speruance, S.L. 1972. 80(3):413-17.
    Etc. etc. I’m short on time, so I’ll skip to more recent data.
    Lancet. Tingle, A.J. Lancet 1984:1:1475-6. Some women who got arthritis from rubella vax still had it seven years later.
    1991 U.S. Vaccine Safety Committee acknowledged that the rubella vax causes both short and long-term arthrits. Institute of Medicine. Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines. Natl Acad Press 1991.
    Journal of Infectious Diseases. 1998. Another study on rubella vax causing arthritis. Mitchell L.A. January 1998: 177:1:5-12.

    New York State Journal of Medicine. Rubella vax can cause serious blood disorder thrombocytopenia. Bartos H.R. Feb. 15, 1972. 72(4):499.
    American Journal of Diseases of Children. Polyneuropathies occurred at a rate of 2.2 cases per thousand rubella vaxes. Symptoms still present even after 2 1/2 years in some children. Schaffner, W. 1974;127:684-688.

    Package insert reports that these diseases have been consistently reported after rubella vax: arthritis, arthralgia, myalgia, encephalitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, thrombocytopenia, leukocytosis, polyneuritis, polyneuropathy, optic neuritis, anaphylaxis, and death. Many reports to the VAERS have been made reporting these events occurring soon after rubella vax.

    Many believe that it would be better to expose girls in elementary school to the natural disease, so that they would probably have immunity at the time they were older and became pregnant. While it is true that this would place pregnant women at risk, and the natural disease is associated with causing diabetes and chronic fatigue syndrome, the vaccine ( a live vaccine) is too. There is no perfect answer in a fallen world.

    Like

  38. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Thanks, Steve, I love your posts! Right on!

    Like

  39. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Lillady,
    Why do you criticize others of rudeness when you are so rude yourself? Was your choice of a nom de plume ironic?

    Like

  40. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Lawrence,
    Since you don’t have an autistic child, how would you know whether or not biomed treatments worked? My autistic child had severe, permanent constipation. When I put her on the GFCF diet in March, a diet her doctor was against, thinking it would cause nutritional deficiencies, her constipation was completely and miraculously cured in less than two days. Do you just get your info on biomed treatments from the medical establishment, which has circled the wagons to keep out effective treatments for autism?

    Like

  41. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Lawrence, a rational and reasonable answer would be preferable to the above rant. You have addressed nothing I said with substance.

    “You see a conspiracy behind every corner & only with the worst in junk science, poorly designed and implemented studies, and studies fill with their own massive COI (think Wakefield, for example) even begin to show what you want to hear.”

    Ad hominems like ‘seeing conspiracy’ are not only unhelpful, but highlight the lack of substance you bring to the table. I have not smeared anyone with such inflammatory rhetoric because it is not necessary. You complain of Wakefield. Why? Have I even mentioned Wakefield. I have seen this trick many times. If someone is against mass vaccination, play the Wakefield card. Just as a side note, the claims of fraud have been overturned by the High Court and the findings of the GMC generally quashed. Aside from that, Wakefield is a classic example of my previous statement, When doctors DO speak out against the dogmatic allopathic model they are ferociously attacked by the establishment.” Let me remind you of the earth shattering conclusion of the Royal Free research: a link could not be ruled out and more research is needed. Wow!! And for that the entire establishment went nuts! (and still is).

    “Steve – we have actual evidence, you know, facts, that show that the vaccine program has been hugely successful in reducing “incidence” of childhood diseases.”

    Since the mantra about vaccines is that people who don’t vaccinate put children’s LIVES at risk, you have conveniently moved the goal posts from the mantra which is indefensible to one that can be shown through statistical analysis. Do some vaccines ‘work’? I believe they do. Are they worth the risk? I do not believe they are. Most childhood VPD’s were considered mild illnesses before the advent of vaccines. Why? Because in most cases they were. Definitions of seriousness have been modified to make people believe that vaccines are saving millions of lives when millions of children were NOT dying from these diseases. It’s funny that people like you accuse people like me of using ‘fear’ to get people not to vaccinate. The fact is that people like me simply encourage people to research inside and outside the US establishment for information about vaccines. There is MUCH more fear mongering from your side of the debate.

    “Side-effects are well known, and those vanishingly small severe side-effects are carefully investigated and acted upon – the reason we have VAERS as a start, plus the CDC long-term vaccine surveillance program (which the anti-vaxers seem to always forget exists), plus the companies themselves who are required to track any severe reactions and report them”

    You mean those side effects like encephalitis, narcolepsy, GBS, anaphylactic shock? You know, all of those side effects that are listed on the package insert but pro-vaxers say we should ignore because it’s legalese? Must I remind you that VAERS is not considered accurate. Underreporting of adverse reactions is estimated at 98%, meaning that 98% of reactions are NEVER reported to VAERS. That also means that they are not investigated. And if you think that corporate self-policing works, why not look at the FDA and the way THEY handle bad news from employees. And you will find that because of the revolving door, most top level regulators and corporate top people are one and the same depending on when you look.

    “This is both good and bad – because we know that these pockets and people are the cause of the vast majority of outbreaks, particularly of diseases like Measles and Mumps.”

    You mean those pesky outbreaks where 80% of victims are fully vaccinated? Hmmmm.

    “See Steve, we deal with facts, not innuendo – and if the body of evidence shows us something different, we carefully evaluate / replicate and resolve – sine the early 1990′s there have been countless studies involving vaccines, research by government, corporate, educational, and international bodies”

    You mean like that international educational study from Denmark that was funded by the CDC? The one where, once the figures were adjusted for changes in cohort definition, showed that autism declined when thimerasol was removed from vaccines. The Thorsen one? The bedrock study of ‘no relationship’? Show me the ones that investigate how the the multiple exposures to latex, mercury, aluminium, toxins, etc interact with each other? Oops. There aren’t any. How about those ones that actually compare children NOT exposed to ANY of those ingredients to those who are? Oops. There aren’t any. So much for your ‘facts’. Facts mean nothing when you define them as coming from research which does not ask the fundamental questions without prejudice.

    “People complain about “Big Pharma & Profits” – what do you think would be more profitable Steve….a vaccine to prevent Measles, Mumps and Rubella, or a drug or treatment for them – that would probably also involve a visit to the hospital for a significant number of those people?”

    You, like the ‘in the pocket’ researchers, ask the wrong question. Which is more profitable… treating the actual illnesses which enhance immune function later in life and leads to overall healthier outcomes or giving a vaccine that may prevent the initial illness but gives a life of chronic illness afterwards? That is the real question. Is pharma interested in health? NO, there is no profit in that. If there were a true concern for health, then prescreening would be a fundamental requirement before ANY vaccine is administered. Why? Because vaccines contain allergens. Because vaccines can cause mitochondrial dysfunction in susceptible people. Because Nuremberg says that mass medication is a crime.

    “You’re in the pocket of “Big Disease” Steve – the doctors and hospitals must love you and your kind, because all you are doing is giving them more patients”

    Sorry but your ad hominem falls flat as being ‘in the pocket’ implies some sort of profit motive. I have none. There is no such entity as ‘Big Disease’. It is a nonsensical rant. And I reiterate from above, chronic disease is what is filling hospitals. Severe asthma, diabetes, GBS, narcolepsy, liver problems, cancer…. all can be traced back to vaccines.

    It is funny though, because if someone is vaccinated and they DON’T get the disease, then the vaccine worked. If they DO get the disease then it would certainly be milder than if not vaccinated. If a child is vaccinated and they DO get an adverse reaction, then it is certainly correlative but NEVER causal. My neighbor has a new-born baby, well 3 months old now. At 2 months the baby was eating and sleeping in a normal routine until, in the mother’s own words, ‘we went for jabs last Monday and the routines went out the window. Now he’s up all night again crying.’ I pointed out that since this occurred from the night of the day he received his jabs that it sounded like it might be an adverse reaction. She said she asked the doctor about it and he said it was perfectly normal and not to worry…. I would wager to say that the poor child will be diagnosed as autistic by 18 months. Time will tell. But rest assured that if he is, it will NOT be deemed causal. I think it is incredibly sad that 1 in 68 children are autistic and 1 in 6 have other milder neuro-developmental issues. Especially since those figures are only seen in vaccinated populations.

    http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2011/researchers-track-down-autism-rates-across-the-globe

    Take a look at the maps. The rates are highest in the highest vaccination countries. But don’t worry, its not causal, just coincidental…

    Like

  42. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 11:00 am

    Lawrence,
    I know you aren’t interested in effective treatments for autism, but for those who are interested in the “nefarious” biomed treatments, you might want to look at “Risking Hope,” in today’s edition of thinkingmomsrevolution.com, by Alison McNeil, daughter of award-winning journalist Robert McNeil (of the McNeil Lehrer report). She has a young son whose autism was caused by vaccines, and in this article published today she talks about starting biomed treatment for him in January of this year, and how, in only six months of treatment, his ATEC score has moved in a favorable direction, from 67 to 36. It has restored her hope that he might be recovered.

    Like

  43. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 11:02 am

    ella :
    Thanks, Steve, I love your posts! Right on!

    Thank you. I just get sick and tired of being accused of ‘fear mongering’ or ‘hating children’ or ‘killing children’ when there is plenty of evidence that vaccines cause multiple harms. If vaccines were trouble free, I would still question the ‘god like’ view of allopathic medicine to interfere with what natural immunity for what are generally mild and easily treated illness which appear to enhance overall health over the longer term. I find it disgusting that these pro vax trolls seem to think that the lost life of child to illness has more value than an lost life to vaccines. And I don’t just mean death, but quality of life too. Over 50% of US children now suffer from chronic illness. Somehow that doesn’t seem to bother these people, even when it is their own children!! I suppose to admit that vaccines harmed their children would unravel their entire dogmatic belief system.

    I don’t know which of the advocates on here are insiders posting as ‘independents’ and which are truly deluded by the rhetoric. As I have stated before, I was one of the latter until I saw how vaccines can spread disease in animals (vaccinated or not) and then I started to research. I changed my mind because I found the research, or lack of in some cases, compelling. I don’t think these people are at all open to changing their views.

    Like

  44. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 11:06 am

    @ Steve: You and I have tangled before on the thread about the Patriot Nurse. There you spilled your venom directed at a young mother from the U.K. whose youngster is severely autistic. You accused her repeatedly of a civil tort of defamation, of “gaming the system” and assisting other parents of “gaming the system” because she assists parents to apply for entitlements to assist them while caring for their autistic children.

    Joe, don’t think that Steve is your friend. He is smarmy and smug with healthy children, along with a huge dose of conspiracy.

    January 31, 2012 at 5:42 pm | #125

    Quote

    Hmmm, we have a difference of opinion here about wheelchairs and therapies provided by the NHS for disabled children. Let’s go back over the posts from Steve and from Autismum to see which person is not qualified and which person is qualified, to discuss the NHS and the funding of wheelchairs and therapies for developmental disabled kids:

    Steve…who jumped on the bandwagon with the anti-vaxers about a death of a child after a flu vaccine, who then had to be disabused about simple legal terminology and civil tort practice in the USA, who then accused Autismum of “gaming the system”. Steve, who has absolutely no contact with disabled children and has never assisted parents to get durable medical equipment and therapies in place. Smug Steve who has children who are not disabled and no empathy or compassion for disabled children and their parents. Steve who also is a conspiracist about Big Government, Big Pharma, physicians and nurses.

    Or…

    Autismum…who has actually researched each vaccine, who actually understands immunology and who has knowledge about the diseases that vaccines prevent, who is aware of the rare adverse events associated with each vaccine and who made a simple inquiry about “Patriot’s Nurses” employment. Autismum, who actually has a child with autism and has used her experience and volunteers her time to assist parents of developmentally disabled children to get the NHS to provide a wheelchair and therapies for their child. Autismum…who actually has a blog to provide information and as forum for parents who have disabled kids. Autismum, who has no “agenda” and is not a conspiracist and who appreciates the skill set and competence of physicians and nurses.

    Like

  45. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 11:07 am

    http://digitaljournal.com/article/324752

    Just to highlight what doesn’t get reported in the US and subsequently does not get investigated by the CDC, FDA or NIH (as if the agency heads would really allow an investigation into their future and/or former employers). They would rather snoop on concerned underlings to make sure that these companies and their products are protected from real scrutiny.

    Like

  46. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 11:15 am

    It’s been ten weeks since the death of a child in India Steve. What are the results of the autopsy? You know, you were so “certain” that a child’s death was caused by an influenza vaccine until you were disabused of that story. In that case the child had endo-carditis.

    Like

  47. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Steve,
    I agree with the guy last week who asked if you had a website. I wish you did, or that you would write a book.

    About individual Third World children not being expendable: did you see that four Nepalese children died on Tuesday of this week, after getting the measles vaccine the day before, on Monday? Their names were Gauri Chiral, Milan Damai, Sujata Nepali, and Anju Blc, children precious to their parents, and now gone. 211 people in India experienced serious adverse reactions to vaccines in vaccine trials there and died from them, between January and June of this year, 2012. India and Spain took the HPV vax off the market when it killed girls there. Japanese doctors boycotted the DPT in the early 1970s when it killed so many babies there, and their SIDS rate plummeted to almost zero and their infant mortality went to lowest in the world immediately. Japan suspended use of several vaccines right before the nuclear disaster a year and a half ago, when they killed several babies. Most countries take children killed by vaccines much more seriously than they do here or in Great Britain, we who share the highest vaccine rate in the world, we who have the most powerful pharmaceutical companies.

    Like

  48. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 11:25 am

    I found out about the Patriot Nurse’s videos on Youtube here, and I watched one. It was great! I encourage everyone seeking information and professional testimonials on the dangers of vaccines to watch them.

    And Steve, I’m sorry about your neighbor’s baby. You’re right, that’s how it goes, an infant screams endlessly after vaccination (encephalitis), then loses or never attains milestones, develops autism, and you’d think we lived in the Dark Ages, despite truckloads of a causal link among these events, most doctors do nothing but dismiss and deny. I don’t know how long it’s going to be before parents realize that they’d better wake up and take appropriate steps to protect their children. I think our movement is snowballing now, so it won’t be much longer. Now every time that someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine, even those programmed to drink the kool-ade are either going to wake up on their own, or a friend or relative will put two and two together and point it out to them. And then fewer and fewer are going to fall into the trap!

    Like

  49. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Oh ho, Steve’s *expertise* comes from *research* supposedly on animals.

    “As I have stated before, I was one of the latter until I saw how vaccines can spread disease in animals (vaccinated or not) and then I started to research. I changed my mind because I found the research, or lack of in some cases, compelling. I don’t think these people are at all open to changing their views.”

    Do we have human vaccines for “kennel cough” or “heartworm”, Steve? Shouldn’t you posting on a pet blog?

    Like

  50. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Ella…citations desperately needed.

    Like

  51. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 11:37 am

    lilady :
    It’s been ten weeks since the death of a child in India Steve. What are the results of the autopsy? You know, you were so “certain” that a child’s death was caused by an influenza vaccine until you were disabused of that story. In that case the child had endo-carditis.

    As far as I am aware it has not been published yet, but your insistence on defending your views as opposed to having any sympathy for babies who die after vaccination is appalling. And you mischaracterized the conversation about Patriot Nurse, although I will say this, it is another example of ferocious attack on someone who dares question the dogma and basically suggests that people research with an open mind before making decisions which can have life altering or destroying ramifications for their children.

    Like

  52. ashley
    August 23, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Lara,
    You had said in an earlier post that your autistic son had not gotten any vaccines after he was six months old. Do you remember which vaccines he had gotten and when?

    Like

  53. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Steve,
    I totally agree with you. It was weird that all Drs. Wakefield, Walker-Smith, Murch, etc. had done was a small case study pointing out an apparent strange association between the Lancet Twelve getting bowel disease and, in nine cases of the twelve, autism, within days or weeks of the MMR. All they did was say that further research was called for. I read the article, something few of his critics have done. The case study was approved by the hospital, approved by the Lancet editorial board, published, no problem until Big Pharma realized that it was really going to bite into their profits when even greater numbers of parents decided not to get the MMR for their children based on the experience of the Lancet Twelve. Then they hire the hit man Brian Deer to take out Wakefield. Every newspaper and news broadcast in the world a year and a half ago went on and on about the “fraudulent” study. Then when Sir John Mitting, the London judge who exonerated Drs. Walker-Smith and Murch in March of having committed any fraud and restored their licenses, said that they had treated the children appropriately (Dr. Walker-Smith being near retirement, the eminent father of pediatric gastro-enterology), and reprimanded the GMC for their shallow reasoning and false conclusions, it’s not reported in any newspaper in the U.S. (It was in the British Guardian and other newspapers there, though.) What could account for this news blackout, if not the long reach of Big Pharma?
    Dr. Wakefield directed a primate study at the University of Pittsburgh, which showed that the hep-B vax at birth caused serious developmental delays in all the monkeys who got it, none of the monkeys who didn’t. It was published in Neurotoxicology, no problem, reputable study, respected researchers on the team, but then mysteriously retracted, apparently because Big Pharma feared that parents who learned that the HBV caused developmental delays in monkeys might also do that to their children (and it does).

    Like

  54. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Link to the withdrawn study done at the University of Pittsburgh:

    rescuepost.com/files/hewitson-et-al-09-primate-hbv-study.pdf

    Like

  55. Karmen
    August 23, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    My son was harmed by vaccines as well. That is a fact. Just as there was no evidence that smoking cigarettes caused cancer and just as there was complete science behind Vioxx, the truth about vaccines is coming out and will not be stopped. There are numerous studies supporting vaccines are causal in “autism”. How you can emphatically state vaccines do not cause “autism” is ridiculous. Even the CDC does not say that. Julie Gerberding herself admitted that there is possibly a segment of the population that is susceptible to vaccines that could lead to “autism”. The CDC says there is no science to support a link between vaccines and autism but they have not and can not say it has been ruled out completely. There are many here that will stop their ears from hearing what I am saying but just maybe someone will listen. The science is there. Injecting aluminum, mercury, pathogens, and the many other substances in vaccines is known to cause death, encephalitis among many other severe effects. The package inserts state that. How often does that happen? We will never know until we do active surveillance studies of vaccines. One last point. You will never convince a parent and family that have witnessed their healthy child suffer injury from vaccines that it did not happen. Why would you even want to do that? Why don’t we all join together and push for active surveillance of the vaccine program and true unbiased studies by third parties of studies we can all agree on??? This can all be put to rest if done right.

    Like

  56. Alecia
    August 23, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Wonderful post!! Like you I had always just vaccinated my older child, who is 11. But when I was pregnant with my son, I was shocked to see that there was controversy over vaccinations. His father and I did research with everything pertaining to him, and made our educated informed decision to vaccinate!!! He was born 7 months ago, and I have become much more aware and supportive of those who choose to vaccinate.

    My daughter received her boosters for 6th grade, this year- and a mere 5 months later her therapist REVERSED her childhood diagnosis of ADHD and informed us that there was no longer anything clinically wrong with her.. (We never medicated her, we only used behavior therapy and major changes in diet.) So a big thumbs up to all the anti vaccination folks who told me it was my fault she had ADHD because I allowed them to vaccinate her.

    Like

  57. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Thanks for your post, Karmen, I’m sorry about your son. There’s a lot of us in the same boat. The vaccine defenders at this site will dismiss our experience as “anecdotal,” the reactions as “coincidental,” the adverse events listed on the vaccine package inserts as “legalese” to protect the vaccine companies from lawsuits, the hundreds of scientific studies proving that vaccines often cause severe harm as “flawed,” we parents of vaccine-damaged children “unscientific,” “hysterical,” the vaccine companies as “bastions of truth and altruism,” aluminum, mercury, and formaldehyde included in vaccines as being elements “universally present in our environment, ” and completely harmless when included in vaccines and injected into your child in doses far exceeding the presumed FDA safe limit, those criticizing the use of vaccines as seeking to “kill untold millions of children who would die of vaccine-preventable diseases.” The unbiased reader is free to make what he will of the presence of this kind of rhetoric on this site.

    Like

  58. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    I should have included that they will say that days of high-pitched and/or inconsolable screaming are dismissed by the vaccine defenders here as the typical behavior of a baby, not at all signs of vaccine-induced encephalitis. That makes it really easy to dismiss later claims of vaccine damage if they erase the signs of vaccine reaction at the time of receiving the vaccine.

    Like

  59. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    @Steve Michaels, cases in vaccine court that mention the “A” word, as you put it, are dismissed because it has been shown time and time again, (even the 5000+ Autism Omnibus hearings could not provide sufficient evidence to prove the autism the children developed was due to vaccines) that autism is not caused by vaccines. Vaccines rarely can cause other issues, but they do not cause autism. If a person goes to vaccine court claiming that a vaccine gave their child autism, it is going to be dismissed because decades of science show otherwise.

    If a person were to take a different approach then they may get a hearing, but even in the case of Hannah Poling, a vaccine did not cause autism, and autism-like symptoms are not autism. To clarify, autism-like symptoms could be along the lines of someone rocking, or being unable to maintain eye contact, someone having poor social skills or communication skills, fixating on parts of objects, stringent adherence to routine, etc. These are autism -like symptoms, but may also be evidence of something else. Unless a person has all the criteria listed in the currently accepted DSM IV for an autism diagnosis, they don’t have autism. There are six areas where a person must show deficits or delays in order to be given a diagnosis of autism. Poor eye contact and a habit of rocking do not make one autistic. That is where the confusion comes into play here and that cannot be forgotten. Hannah Poling does not have autism, you would be wise to remember that.

    Like

  60. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    @Steve and Ella
    You guys are amazing! Good information!

    @Lara
    You seem like the most sensible logical defender of this site. You said, “Since more than 60% of the population currently gets vaccinations if vaccines were the cause of this regression, more than 60% would regress. That being the case, your statement is not logical.” You are forgetting the genetic factor here…vaccines obviously are not harmful to everybody or should I say, not harmful in a noticeable or functional way. So your statement isn’t logical. The point is that vaccines are not safe for everybody depending on any various predispositions you may have. You also said, “There may be environmental factors that contribute to autism, but most of the research shows there is a strong genetic component and none of the research being conducted today shows any causal link between vaccines and autism.” So right there you admitting a “genetic” component. So what you are saying is that there are “environmental” factors (Vaccines) and a genetic component. I think we actually agree. So let me ask you this….if you know that vaccines can and do injure people, why can’t the injury be Autism? What vaccines only injure people in other ways but doesn’t cause injury to the brain and cause Autism?

    @Law
    What do you know about Biomedical treatments? As a matter of fact Biomedical treatments are what have been helping my son. GAPS diet, healing the leaky gut which then gets rid of the allergies, getting rid of the Candida, getting rid of bad bacteria, supporting with needed supplements, chelating toxins out of the body (vaccine toxins), etc… These all work and every one of them have made a huge difference in my Son’s recovery. The regular medical establishment would tell you to go to ABA Therapy, Speech Therapy, OT etc….and that’s it, no other options. Oh, maybe to put your kid away in an institution. Please Law, you have no leg to satnd on here.

    Like

  61. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    Steve,
    Do you like Kafka? I used to find his aphorisms invaluable for elucidating many of life’s mysteries. This one has been knocking around in my mind and is very relevant to this debate.

    Die Krähen behaupten, eine eizige Krähe könnte den Himmel zerstören. Das ist zweifellos, beweist aber nichts gegan den Himmel, denn Himmel bedeuten eben: Unmöglichkeit von Krähen.

    The crows claim that one single crow could destroy Heaven. That is undeniable, but it doesn’t prove anything against Heaven, because Heaven simply means the impossibility of crows.

    Replace one single crow with vaccine-damaged child, and Heaven with Medical Establishment, and you will be deeply moved by the pathos and nobility of this paradox.

    Like

  62. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    @lara
    You say, “autism-like symptoms are not autism. To clarify, autism-like symptoms could be along the lines of someone rocking, or being unable to maintain eye contact, someone having poor social skills or communication skills, fixating on parts of objects, stringent adherence to routine, etc. These are autism -like symptoms, but may also be evidence of something else.” Lara, if your child has those symptoms caused by a vaccine, it doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s NOT good. I would have to disagree with you and say Autism like symptoms are Autism.

    Like

  63. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    @ella

    Love it!

    Like

  64. Abby
    August 23, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Just as Lara had said in her 1st post that “if a child has Autism they are going to have it with or without a vaccine.” Joe I urge you to go out and get facts to back up your claims. That being said everyone has a right to their own beliefs but don’t make it a personal claim make a scientific claim.

    By not vaccinating your children you are putting so many more people and children at risk for greater diseases that can kill them. I know 1st hand that Autism is not easy, but when you have the right tools and education you can manage it. I worked with children and young adults who have moderate-severe Autism for 5 years. It is hard and I give parents with any child on the spectrum a lot of credit.

    Parents with a child with Autism it is your JOB to have all the information to better your child’s life. I do not believe vaccines cause Autism…..but whether you do or don’t it is worth it to your child to be informed and try EVERYTHING possible to make their quality of life better!

    I will leave you with some education on Autism I hope that you will inform yourself of ASD:

    http://my.clevelandclinic.org/childrens-hospital/specialties-services/departments-centers/center-for-autism/default.aspx

    Like

  65. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    @ella, it should be noted that not everyone will receive comfort at AoA as all I got there were insults, verbal attacks and threats of physical violence when I reached out to other parents of children with autism (this was before I knew they weren’t about supporting other parents of children with autism but only those who claim their children are damaged [by vaccine] which I don’t believe.) My son is not damaged, he has challenges, but he isn’t damaged, and certainly not by any vaccine. After reading your post, I am convinced that you are the notorious cia parker, as your claims are too close to the same to be anyone else. On another note, vaccine reaction would be obvious right away, therefore there is no need to wait until the child is two years or older before you would know if a vaccine reaction had occurred in your child. Your point is fallacious.

    Like

  66. August 23, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    It’s vaccine advocates such as Katie that inspire educators and healthcare professionals. Her enthusiasm demonstrates the mass effect that public health has had in spreading the message that vaccines are safe and save lives. It’s refreshing to see intelligent parents such as Katie utilizing her time to educate other parents, and to see such a positive role model in the spotlight. Thank you Shot of prevention for featuring such an avid, smart vaccine advocate!

    Like

  67. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    @Abby
    I agree with you and I told my story here for the same reason….to let parents know to educate themselves. If you educate yourself and vaccinate, I have no problem with it. To each his own, as long as you have all of the education needed to make an informed decision. And, I do have facts for my claim because it is my child and my experience, that’s why I am where I am today.

    Like

  68. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    @MelodyRN
    Just saw your face book page and was wondering why it was created? Are there many Nurses who don’t vaccinate?

    Like

  69. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Lara,
    Vaccine reactions are often not observable right away. Why would you think they would be? The most obvious point is that If the speech center of his brain is addled by an infant vaccine, how could you tell until at least a year later, when he missed all his speech milestones? Most doctors even then would just say he’s a late developer, probably nothing to worry about. In countless children (and adults), it’s a gradual loss of abilities after a vaccine. There’s often a lag of weeks or months while the immune system tries to figure out what the appropriate response to the antigenic assault of vaccines is: it often doesn’t manifest its decision for weeks, months, or even years after the assault. While it makes it more difficult to link cause and effect, it is still true in many cases.

    And, Lara, what did someone say to you at age of autism that you found so insulting? Usually the moderators there are very polite and tolerant of opposing views. Could you tell me when you posted the comment they found offensive? I’d be interested in seeing what it was. And, since Joe expresses the same views as most who post at age of autism, wouldn’t you assume he would be welcomed there?

    Abby,
    What you said is very insulting to Joe and all of us vaccine-damaged families. Why do you think that a normally-developing child who gets the MMR (or whatever) and within days or weeks loses his former abilities to walk, talk, poop normally, and/or socialize was fated to get autism, and that the vaccine had nothing to do with it? That is crazy.

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  70. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    @Joe, There is research showing that the brain growth in the areas that are responsible for the conditions of autism happen in the second trimester of pregnancy. That growth is determined by genetic factors that were present at the time of conception. Nothing, in any research study ever done has ever shown a causal link between vaccines and autism. So you are incorrect when you state, “I think we actually agree.” The environmental factors could be anything, but it is not necessarily, strictly those environmental factors that contribute to autism, and that environmental factors has never been shown to be vaccines. From what I understand about the science behind it, the environmental factors is currently a hypothesis because that is the only thing that could explain why one identical twin would develop autism and the other would not, but from what I have read thus far, there isn’t any compelling evidence currently to explain what it might be. Autism is not brain injury or brain damage, or any other kind of damage at all. The brain has developed differently and that is due to genetic factors, not vaccines.

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  71. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @Abby
    Checked out the link you provided on the Clevland Clinic…..here’s what they think “Many researchers believe autism is the result of a combination of environmental and genetic factors.” This doesn’t seem to go along with your belief, “if a child has Autism they are going to have it with or without a vaccine.” A vaccine is an environmental factor.

    Like

  72. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Lil whatever,
    Kennel cough is caused by bordatella pertussis, a variant of the bacterium that causes pertussis in humans. It is not usually a serious disease in dogs, only in some puppies, but causes an annoying, long-lasting cough. Just like pertussis in humans. Not serious these days except in some infants, long-lasting cough. Vaccines not very reliable in either case. I am an animal rights advocate, and do not support animal tests, but I would point out that the basis for supporting animal tests among many “scientists,” is that we all share diverse aspects of our biological makeup. Not 100% by any means, but if there were no correlation between human biology and that of other animals, then why try to test vaccines and drugs on these poor creatures? While there is a lot to be said for the belief that these tests are worthless and only in place to reassure the public and reap big bucks in grant money and studies to procure tenure, that’s probably not going to be a contention that you are going to agree with. Why do you go out of your way to insult a vaccine-damaged dad?

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  73. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    @lara
    I am sorry but you said doesn’t make any sense to me. Seems like you are talking in circles. Do you or do you not belive that environmental factors along with a genetic predisposition can lead to Autism?.

    Like

  74. August 23, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    @ella – what you describe is what happens to a lot of children with autism, whether they are vaccinated or not. A gradual regression (or lack of development) – you blame vaccines, but the evidence just isn’t there to support that.

    Also, I do agree that you are cia parker – your story and even writing style are exactly the same. Why the need to change your name?

    @joe – so, you are using industrial chelators on your son? Where do you think all the “heavy metals” are coming from? The amount in any vaccine is so miniscule to be merely a trace – all you are doing is leeching normal minerals out of your son’s body.

    Do heavy metals have some “magical” way of reproducing in your son’s body?

    Also, how do you differentiate between the “good” bacteria & “bad” bacteria – sounds like you might be using MMS – a bleach solution, on your son as well. There are legitimate ways to assist autistics, and then there are the quack ways, bordering on child abuse (or sometimes crossing the line). Of course, all of this is viewed as “okay” within certain segments of the community, because the child is being “recovered” so the child as is, is more of a thing. Disgusting.

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  75. August 23, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    @joe – the research has been done. If there is an environmental factor involved, and there probably is, it isn’t vaccines….been there, done that. Why don’t we concentrate on what it could be versus what it isn’t?

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  76. Elizabeth Weaver
    August 23, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    I’ll never forget the infant on a respiratory with Pertussis that I cared for in the PICU as a resident.
    I’m a family doctor now and what really angers me is all the research dollars that were spent disproving over and over again the lack of causation between immunizations and Autism. This money could have been better spent on research looking for the real cause of Autism and treatments.

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  77. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Lara,
    The doctor who examined the first cases of autistic children, Dr. Leo Kanner, wrote in 1943, when he published his landmark article, that this was a new syndrome, never before seen or described in all of history, and that if it had existed before, it would certainly have been described by someone somewhere. It never was.
    In Olmsted and Blaxill’s book The Age of Autism, the authors meticulously document the pathogenesis of the syndrome in these particular children: all of them either got the new, mercury-containing diphtheria vaccine or their parents worked on developing the first mercury-containing fungicides. One boy was recovered when treated with gold salts, a remedy for mercury poisoning.
    This is a greaf book, and I”d highly recommend it to you guys, Steve and Joe. It’s hilarious in taking down Freud: a lot of his celebrated psychoanalysis was done on people clearly suffering from mercury poisoning. Mercury was used in shocking quantities in many common medicines of the day. One woman rubbed mercury ointment into her father’s syphilis sores on his leg every day, resting his leg above her knees when she did it. She developed a persistent sore at that spot which bothered her. Freud saw it as a mad sexual desire for her father. Olmsted and Blaxill make an excellent case for its being a manifestation of localized mercury poisoning. A Russian count with chronic constipation was supposed by Freud to have sexual hangups, but it turns out he took mercury-containing medicine, and mercury is known to cause the bowels to stop moving normally. (Any connection to all the kids who got permanent constipation from mercury-containing vaccines?) Pink disease killed many of the toddlers who got mercury powder rubbed into their gums when they were teething in the early twentieth century.

    Lara, it’s really unscientific to say that if vaccines are dangerous, then everyone would display the negative reactions. Even you would have to admit that most people can eat peanut butter with no problem, but some people will die if they even inhale a molecule of peanut dust. (An allergy that didn’t use to exist, undoubtedly yet another manifestation of vaccine damage, when the immune system is skewed from developing an appropriate Th-1 habitual response to developing an inappropriate Th-2 autoimmune reaction by vaccines. )Why would you expect everyone to react in the same way to the neurological assault of vaccines?

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  78. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    And thanks, Joe, I’m glad you liked my posts!

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  79. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Lawrence,
    You don’t know?

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  80. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    @Law
    Your ignorance to all of this amazing since you have such strong opinions about Biomedical treatments. You are totally clueless. How can you have an opinion about something you know nothing about? BTW…an MD over-sees these treatments….yes a Medical Doctor. So if an MD is a quack so be it. Also, the “magical” heavy metals you are referring to are from vaccines… And LAW you are PATHETIC and an ugly excuse as a human being for calling my son a thing and disgusting. You should really take your opinions elsewhere.

    Like

  81. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    @Joe, my older brother had many autism-like symptoms. He sometimes would rock, has difficulty with maintaining eye contact, poor social skills, etc. But he doesn’t have autism, he had cerebral palsy. A person with ODC has difficulty deviating from their fixed routine, but it is not autism. A person with poor social skills could have social anxiety disorder, also not autism, and Hannah Poling has a mitochondrial disorder which causes some of the symptoms of autism to manifest, but not all of those that are necessary for her to receive a diagnosis of autism.

    Vaccines may cause injury in the few individuals who have a severe reaction, and that would indicate vaccines for that individual would be contraindicated. In Hannah Poling’s case, had she not been vaccinated and she contracted an infection (even a bad cold with a fever or the flu) she would have had the same reaction as she had from the vaccine, may have been more severe in fact, causing her death. Using your logic, if you are claiming her autism-like symptoms are autism, then diseases which vaccines prevent are also the cause of autism. The difference in that is severe adverse reactions to vaccines are by far less frequent then severe adverse reactions to an infection. Logically, vaccines are the safer course of action then allowing a disease to infect a person.

    As to the genetic versus environmental factors causing autism, all science has been able to find thus far is there are definitely genetic components that lead to abnormal brain development which cause autism. The environmental factor is currently just speculation, therefore until a definite environmental factor is found, nobody can say for certain that it actually does play a significant role in the development of autism. It is currently the only plausible explanation for why one identical twin would develop autism while the other would not, but still there is nothing certain, it’s an educated guess, AKA: hypothesis. One thing we know for certain though is vaccines are not the environmental factor, if there is one.

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  82. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    @lara
    I respect your opinions, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and allowing me to do the same.

    Like

  83. August 23, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    @ella – where is my comment did I call your son a “thing” in fact, if you look at AoA – that is what a lot of the parents there are intimating what they consider their autistic children to be “lost, not there, not my child, etc” which they use to excuse the horrible bio-med quack treatments they inflict on their children.

    And ella, the amount of thimersol in vaccines nowadays, if it even has it (and the MMR never did) is so tiny – but parents are saying their children have huge levels of mercury in their blood. This is not possible – mercury does not grow, does not reproduce – you are leeching minerals right out of your children’s bones by using Chelation….it is a barbaric practice – you are the one abusing your child, not me.

    @Joe – you can agree to disagree – but we have the facts and science on our side.

    Like

  84. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    I have great empathy for anyone who cares for an autistic or developmentally disabled child. I have a lot less empathy for parents who label their autistic/developmentally disabled child as “vaccine-damaged” and profound contempt for those parents who subject their children to IV chelation, oral and enema bleach solutions, Lupron castration and other abusive, intrusive and dangerous practices.

    I still mourn the loss of my childhood friend from polio and recall the lifelong neurological sequelae my older cousin experienced due to measles encephalopathy. No, self-diagnosed vaccine encephalitis or vaccine encephalitis because a child cries and has a high fever, do not count. Encephalitis is a medical emergency that requires intensive hospital care.

    I recall only too well, each and every case that I investigated during my tenure as a public health nurse/clinician, of bacterial septicemia and bacterial meningitis that resulted in major organ failures, neurological deficits and death…before vaccines were developed against S. pneumoniae, meningoccocal and Hib bacterial diseases.

    We need to do a better job of educating the general public and prospective parents about vaccines and the serious, oftentimes deadly consequences, of not vaccinating children.

    We need to provide Vaccine Information Statements (VISs) http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/ to pregnant women and their partners, along with Vaccine-Preventable Diseases Fact Sheets http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/spec-grps/hcp/provider-resources-factsheets.html to counteract the deleterious effects of the notorious anti-vaccine websites.

    Science is hard to learn and immunology and the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable diseases is even more complicated. If we allow anti-vaccine amateurs to postulate their opinions and theories, we have already “lost” parents who have valid concerns and parents who are “fence-sitters” about vaccines, to wandering the internet in search of crank bloggers and their credulous audience.

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  85. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    @elle, Dr. Kanner also made a claim that autism was caused by cold or unaffectionate mothers. Do we still hold to that claim as well? One person making a claim does not mean that claim is correct. How could this particular doctor know, out of all of human existence that autism had never existed before? He discovered it, just as Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity. It was always there, he just gave it a label and made it a real diagnosis.

    Personally, I feel he was quite arrogant to make such a claim, an attempt to put himself higher in the ranks of his peers. How do you also explain that most experts today agree, Mozart, Van Gogh, Einstein and so many others that lived and died prior to Dr. Kanner’s discovery are believed to have been autistic themselves? That being the case, Dr. Kanner was wrong in his assumption that autism hadn’t existed before. It did, but it didn’t have a name, and many more were diagnosed as mentally retarded. If one looks now at the diagnosis of autism versus the diagnosis of mental retardation, while instances of autism have increased, cases of mental retardation have lowered by the same margin. This isn’t because of increased vaccination, this is because we have a better understanding of autism and people are now being diagnosed correctly where they hadn’t been before.

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  86. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Lawrence,
    Did you mean to address this comment to someone else? Joe has a vaccine-damaged son, did you mean this comment for him? I know the things you said here, I don’t have a son, I have a daughter. And they’ve taken most of the mercury out of most vaccines (not the flu vaccine), but before 2002 the amount of mercury in a single killed-virus shot was way over the FDA-recommended “safe” level, and the cumulative amount in the whole schedule was way, way over any conceivable “safe” level. Most vaccines continue to have similarly way higher than the recommended “safe” level of aluminum. I know the live vaccines have never had heavy metals in them: it would kill the live viruses. The MMR causes autism for other reasons. Many autistic vaccinated children have measles-vaccine strain virus in their intestines, while their typical vaccinated peers don’t. Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus in the MMR in 1990, at the beginning of the autism epidemic (and now, I”ve read, they’ve silently lowered the amount again. Wink wink, nudge, nudge). There are lots of areas conducive to research, if the climate in scientific circles were more favorable to genuine research.

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  87. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Lara,
    Where are your scientific studies proving that if Hannah Poling had gotten measles, mumps, rubella, Hib meningitis, pertussis, diphtheria, or tetanus, she would certainly have developed the same symptoms of autism that she did after getting a plethora of shots in one visit? Do you mean that if she had coincidentally gotten all these diseases at once, as she got all the shots for them at once, it is certain that they would have caused her disabiltiy? Where is your proof that a child who reacts to the MMR (or whatever) would certainly have died if he had gotten the natural diseases?

    Like

  88. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Einstein is believed to have had autism: he didn’t speak until he was three. He would have reacted to the smallpox vaccine. Mozart, Van Gogh, Abraham Lincoln and his wife, all suffered from syphilis and took medicines containing mercury to try to suppress the symptoms. The unusual behavior they exhibited was caused by mercury poisoning, just as the autism of many people still with us was caused by the mercury in vaccines before 2002. .
    Read The Age of Autism and then come back and we’ll talk about whether autism existed before vaccines. I should mention that Blaxill and Olmsted found a couple of descriptions of children in extremely polluted London at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution who sound autistic, poisoned by the heavy metals in the air, just as there is one Amish boy with autism who lives close to a mercury-producing electrical plant.

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  89. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    Dr. Kanner and his colleagues at Johns Hopkins collaborated to write a book describing every pediatric neurological disease ever known to man in the mid-’30s: nothing even closely resembling autism was described in it. He turned ideas over in his head to try to explain the syndrome: he thought of the refrigerator mother hypothesis as a possible explanation, not himself even dreaming of a mercury connection. It was Bruno Bettelheim who really took off with this insulting theory (of refrigerator mothers, not mercury), and Dr. Kanner later renounced Bettelheim and the theory. His examinations of the children were accurate reports of recognizable autistic behavior, not a theory. You cannot expect scientists at the very beginning of a disease to know everything that will eventually be discovered about it: we all stand on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before us.

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  90. Chris
    August 23, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    ella:

    Where are your scientific studies proving that if Hannah Poling …snip…, it is certain that they would have caused her disabiltiy?

    Her genetic mitochondrial disease is linked to many other diseases:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction is at the core of a surprising range of very common illnesses and conditions, and a promising new avenue for their treatment. As the mitochondria are responsible for producing energy, any illness that has an energy problem could be related to the mitochondria.

    The highest risk for someone with her disorder is after an illness:

    The child or adult is at highest risk for neurological and organ damage during and for the two weeks following an illness. Therefore even a simple flu or cold virus can have devastating effects on the patient, even death.

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  91. August 23, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    @ella – sorry I can’t keep your stories straight, since you seem to have so many, and so many names as well.

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  92. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    @ella, the statement that Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder would have manifested with a disease was stated by her doctors, and was part of her case file. The condition was there, predated the vaccines she received, it is a genetic disorder. If she had gotten an infection prior to getting her vaccines, a high fever would have activated her mitochondrial disorder. A mitochondrial disorder is not in and of itself a disability, but the reaction to the high fever is what caused it. A high fever, that is key. What is the average measure of temperature in a person who contracts measles?

    What is your proof that Einstein had a reaction to the smallpox vaccine? That’s a pretty outlandish claim, since you weren’t even there to witness it. The tentative diagnoses of Van Gogh, Mozart, etc, are based on their childhood development, not their behavior as adults. Mozart was a musical prodigy, and always was socially awkward. Einstein also proved to be a prodigy in physics, but in 4th grade couldn’t do basic math and his teachers believed he was mildly mentally retarded. You really need to research the difference between mercury poisoning and autism, they are VERY different.

    Olmsted is a fraud. He claims that Amish don’t vaccinate which is ridiculous because they do, granted less so then most other Americans, but they do. And his claim that the Amish also don’t have autism is also ridiculous as per capita, cases of autism along with other co-morbid conditions, are more common in Amish then the general public. Experts believe this is due to close relatives reproducing with each other. That would put the emphasis back on genetics. Any claim made my Olmsted is automatically suspect as he has shown a tremendous propensity for cherry picking data, which would be dishonest, therefore any conclusions he states are not trustworthy.

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  93. Thomas
    August 23, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Ella wrote this about Age of Autism “Usually the moderators there are very polite and tolerant of opposing views”

    Thank you for the laugh – the truth of course is that the AoA leaders boast of censoring all information that might confuse their followers. See this thread, where JB Handley describes this as providing a “safe environment” http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/03/quoth-mark-not-a-doctor-not-a-scientist/

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  94. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Joe,

    Have you read Vaccine Epidemic? There’s an account in it written by a mother, Sonja Hintz, RN, and her formerly autistic son Alexander, that’s great. The mother says he reacted to the DTaP, arching his back that evening and screaming for two days, nonstop. His doctor claimed that this was normal and failed to recognize this as an adverse vaccine reaction. By two years old he was saying a few words, but when he got another round of vaccines at 25 months, he suddenly lost his few phrases, lost weight and hair, had severe constipation, started doing autistic behaviors like hand posturing and picky eating, by 37 months he was unresponsive to anyone and only wanted to line up cars. He was diagnosed with mitochondrial disorder, and the specialist said he’d always be low-functioning.
    The parents got him chelation therapy, starting the summer after third grade. The boy himself, recovered at thirteen, writes that chelation helped him think more clearly, draw detailed pictures for the first time, write in cursive, and in fourth grade was able to take tests on his own, finding it easier to write out his answers, and in fifth grade started to get better grades. In sixth grade he was able to do well in his schoolwork with no tutoring, and he started to get As on his report card. He ate a gluten-free casein-free diet for years, but no longer needs to. He was a typical 13-year old eighth grader thanks to chelation.

    Lawrence, I understand that chelation is a scary prospect, dangerous in the hands of personnel who aren’t well-trained. But it’s stories like these that are encouraging parents who have the means to try it for their children. It’s our dream to see our children become independent, and desperate times call for desperate remedies. I don’t know if I’d get it for my daughter if I had the means and opportunity: she’s improving so much on the GFCF diet, the many supplements she takes every day, and patient academic and social skill drills and repetition, to try to create new neural pathways in her brain, that I’d have to do a lot more research to see if I thought that the possible benefit outweighed the risk. I read that only about a quarter of chelated children showed significant improvement, and that would be another factor to weigh. But Lawrence, I don’t think you can discount the idea entirely. Also in Vaccine Epidemic, Gay Tate, in “Three Short Years,” writes about her normal son born in 1989, before the vaccine epidemic started, and her two autistic children born in 1992 and 1996, both of whom reacted to vaccines and accumulated a lot of mercury from them.

    She writes (p. 102-3): “The most damaging aspect of the change (in vaccine schedule) was tthe sharp increase in the amount of mercury that Kenny, and later Olivia, received. Their pediatricians gave Kenny and Olivia the additional hepatitis B and Hib vaccines, both containing the preservative thimerosal, which is 50 % ethylmercury by weight. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin, and very damaging to the immune system. Kenny and Olivia each received three times the amount of mercury, beginning just days after birth, as Allen. Those in charge of the vaccination schedule apparently forgot to add up the amount of mercury that American childrn would receive because of the added shots. How careless! Even worse, how reprehensible to continue, to this day, to publicly deny the damage that was done.
    How do I know Kenny and Olivia suffered from mercury toxicity? I have test results. We had each child’s porphyrins tested. Porphyrins are derivatives of the heme synthesis pathway and are normally found in urine. Variations in urinary porphyrin metabolite patterns can be used to measure the overall body burden and toxicity of mercury, as well as other heavy metals and toxins. I can still remember staring, through angry tears, at the results of my three children’s porphyrin profile tests. Kenny, cognitively and physicall the most affected child, showed the highest level of mercury toxicity. Olivia, less affected, showed clear but less toxicity, and Allen’s results showed no evidence of mercury toxicity at all. All three children shared the same parents, food, water, air, time spent nursing, and even the time of year they were born. The biggest difference in environmental exposures that happened during those three short years was the increase in their vaccines. There it was, clear data from my own family and a microcosm of what had happened to so many children. A sudden increase in autism, beginning in the 1990s, that coincided with a change in a single set of exposures- vaccines, received by all children in our country without regard to genetics, diet, socioeconomic status, geography, or quality of medical care.”

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  95. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Lara,
    Surely you don’t really believe that any doctor is godlike enough to proclaim with certainty that a child who reacted to a vaccine would have died had they gotten the targeted natural disease! I don’t think you’re playing on the same field some of us here are.

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  96. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    @law
    Yet again…you know nothing of you speak regarding chelation and biomedical. Do you know how many different types of ways there are to chelate toxins out of the body? About a zillion….some are mild some are stronger; basically, anything that helps remove the heavy metals is considered chelation. You should seriously stop spouting off about things you don’t have experience with; It’s ridiculous Lawrence.

    You have science on your side, and I have science on my side so it comes down to experience. I have been motivated and in the trenches for the last few years and you have been on this site.

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  97. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Thomas,
    Could you give me a story or a date on Age of Autism that you believe someone’s comments were received insultingly? I looked at your link, but I didn’t have time to go down the whole thing looking for an insult dealt out on Age of Autism. I find all the sarcasm and insults on your website puerile.

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  98. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    And Thomas, rather than saying Thank you for the laugh, it would be more convincing to say something like: I believe you are mistaken in asserting that all comments posted on Age of Autism are received respectfully by the moderators. Let me cite the following example that supports my opinion:

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  99. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    And, Lara, I really would be interested in seeing how you were treated rudely at Age of Autism. Could you tell me a story title or a date?

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  100. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Chris,
    What you cited doesn’t at all prove that Hannah would have died of measles had she gotten it rather than the vaccine. And I’m sure you remember the study published several months ago that proved that the hepatitis B vaccine caused the mitochondrial disorder in the children involved, not the other way around.

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  101. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    @ Thomas: And who the heck would even want to venture there at AoA, with a comment that is not in lockstep with their crazy, unscientific, conspiracy-based “theories” about the debunked vaccine-autism link? Their *journalists*, especially the Boy Wonder/Ace Reporter, have a history of stalking doctors and scientists at meetings, libeling and slandering them, and going after science bloggers at the places of employment (although I do *know* one poster, who on a *dare*, got a few comments through their strict moderation).

    The journalist I speak of, has today, again defamed the judge who tossed Wakefield’s Texas lawsuit against Brian Deer, Fiona Godlee and the BMJ.

    Perhaps ella, her sockies and her pals, should be posting comments at AoA. There, their comments, *theories* and allegations of vaccine-injuries would be received graciously…and not be subjected to the “mean” scrutiny of other posters who know the science of immunology and vaccine-preventable diseases epidemiology.

    Like

  102. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    @Ella
    I haven’t read that book; I’ll have to check it out. We have not done any of the hardcore chelation on our son, only very mild stuff. The hard core chelation looks as scary as the vaccines and could be risky if you get too much toxins in the blood stream. We’ll probably never do it….don’t need to if you can get the stuff out slowly.

    Like

  103. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    @ella, I am repeating what her doctors claimed, paraphrasing as I don’t have exact quotes. I didn’t say it was definite that a VPD would cause her death, just that a VPD or any other infection producing a high fever would have resulted in her mitochondrial disorder activating and an infection would have been worse with the potential of death being higher for her then in someone without the same disorder. I didn’t ever say, nor did I say her doctors said, that a disease would definitely kill her, but the possibility of death is always there with any disease, and some who are already vulnerable have a higher risk of it then others.

    Please re-read things prior to comment, it can greatly alleviate these awkward corrections for you as generally the second reading will significantly increase reading comprehension. That is a fact for everyone, it is not an insult against you. I don’t comment until I am sure I fully understand what is being said and/or asked. I suffered significantly from dyslexia when I was a child and it significantly decreased my reading comprehension. I’ve become an avid reader since I’ve gotten older and have found the more I read the less the dyslexia interferes, but there are still frequent times I need to re-read things to make sure I have the full meaning. Hmm, how odd is that? Dyslexia in an unvaccinated child?

    Like

  104. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    @lil
    I didn’t post my story for you and other defenders of this site. I posted my story after Lara posted hers to show other parents (who haven’t made decisions yet) that there are other stories and views about vaccines,

    Like

  105. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    @ella, since you are cia parker, you know already when I am referring to as you went before and copy/pasted it in another comment no another post a few months ago.

    I have nothing but contempt for the people at AoA who called me a liar, told me my son’s autism doesn’t exist or doesn’t count since he isn’t vaccine damaged and made threats of physical violence simply because I made a comment showing I am pro-vaccine.

    It still amuses me now when I meet other parents of children with autism and the shock they experience when I inform them that my son was not vaccinated prior to the onset of symptoms. They always just assume every parent of a child with autism claims their child got it from vaccines. It is due to censorship of any opposing view on AoA and other ‘autism’ sites (which are actually anti-vaccine sites) that perpetuate the myth that only children who are vaccinated have autism. It amuses me and saddens me at the same time because too many autism parents are not really focused on the autism of their child like they believe, but on proving something that has already been disproved multiple times.

    Like

  106. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    @Lara
    We must run in different circles….the Autism groups I belong to usually don’t have an opinion about vaccines and maybe 50/50 on the parents who believe that vaccines played a part. You make it sound like all parents of children with Autism think it was vaccine caused.

    Like

  107. August 23, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Joe :
    @MelodyRN
    Just saw your face book page and was wondering why it was created? Are there many Nurses who don’t vaccinate?

    It was created in response to a Facebook group with a similar yet very different title. Nurses are human, and like other professions are susceptible to falling for misinformation. Nurses Who Vaccinate promotes and shares up-to-date information, continuing education credits for health care professionals and current news to keep medical personal from becoming stale and relying on outdated resources. Medicinal science is constantly growing and it’s important that health employees are able to find ways to keep abreast of changes and new information.

    Like

  108. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    @Joe, I don’t get out much, but when I have been out, and happened to, by chance run into a parent of a child with autism, they are shocked to learn I don’t blame vaccines. Of course we run in different circles, otherwise we might know each other in real life. Since we don’t your statement is a little silly.

    You are correct that most parents of children with autism do not focus on vaccines, nor do most blame vaccines. My point is, those that do seem to be under the impression that all parents of autistic children believe vaccines are to blame. And those are also the ones that frequent anti-vaccine sites and believe the rhetoric spread there. Nothing in my statement said that is most, just simply that those who do are of that mind set because the anti-vaccine sites do not allow opposing views. Therefore they aren’t aware there are opposing views. I hardly believe the half dozen or so parents I’ve met are the majority of parents. But in each case where I have met a parent of a child with autism, the vaccine thing always comes up, and they are shocked when it’s clear I don’t blame vaccines. How could I when my son was not vaccinated?

    Like

  109. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    @ Lara Lohne

    “@ella, since you are cia parker, you know already when I am referring to as you went before and copy/pasted it in another comment no another post a few months ago.”

    Don’t you mean ella a.k.a. cia parker a.k.a. Cynthia Parker who guest blogged at AoA? The same ella,cia parker and Cynthia Parker with her *dramatic story* about her child being *vaccine-injured* following a hepatitis B vaccine:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/05/letter-to-the-editor-in-columbia-daily-tribune-on-pbs-autism-series.html

    Here, ella,cia parker and Cynthia Parker reveals she uses a bunch of sockies…in a post back to her admirers at AoA:

    Like

  110. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Oops, missing from post above, about ella and her many sockies, directly from AoA:

    “Thank you for your suggestion, Jonathan Rose. I’ve e-mailed the autism resource specialist asking what arrangement they have for autistic, moderately capable adolescents. You’re right, that might be better than throwing her into middle school next year.
    Cia Parker

    Posted by: cynthia parker | May 03, 2011 at 12:47 PM”

    Like

  111. Julie
    August 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    I find it interesting. You and I have much in common and likely live very similar lives, except on our opinion of vaccines. I have 5 kids and lead a very busy life. I read blogs and FB conversations, but I don’t participate as there is usually too much mud slinging and not enough intelligent conversations going on! As a nurse I was forced to wear a mask this past flu season for not getting a flu shot. This sparked many conversations with other like minded nurses who felt forced to get the flu shot or they would lose their job. I declined with a religious exemption. My husband is an attorney and with his research I’m working to empower those nurses to defend their right to not be vaccinated. I must admit last fall when this issue was so pressing as I was willing to lose my job over the issue of mandatory flu shots, I prayed for guidance as to find truth on this issue. Truth is a hard pill to swallow. I wanted to be wrong about vaccines. I wanted to be convinced that they aren’t so harmful, but the more I researched, the more opposed to vaccines I have become. I’m all about educating and advocating for patient care and rights. I don’t ever openly discuss my views on vaccines, but being that I’m a nurse, I get asked my views a lot. Through the past flu season I was cornered by many healthcare professionals who oppose this mandatory vaccination. When you care for very sick patients who have idiopathic etiology, then you really start to wonder what is going on. Autoimmune diseases are rising and no one can explain why. It’s very clear what is going on. I do believe that at the heart of a provaxer

    Like

  112. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    @Lara
    I don’t think that most parents who “blame vaccines for Autism” think that all parents belive that. I think your “cricles” are behind the times….I am in a number of support groups etc….and most parents are opened minded that there are many reasons for Autsim and one shoe does not fit all. Most I associate with believe there are many different paths getting to the same place. Vaccines, dental materials, pollution, food, other environmental factors, etc…you name it. We don’t tend to criticize each other for different beliefs but support each other as we can.

    Like

  113. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    @Joe, again, I’m pretty sure I made it clear that I don’t know most parents of children with autism, or most parents of children with autism who blame vaccines. But in my own personal experience, those that I have met are shocked when I don’t blame autism on vaccines, and I believe that those parents who believe that most other parents of children with autism also blame vaccines are those that frequent anti-vaccine sites who do not allow an opposing point of view, which leads these same people to believe there is no opposing point of view. This isn’t any kind of scientific fact, it’s opinion, belief, I could be wrong, but based on my own experience I don’t believe I am.

    Perhaps you should also re-read comments before commenting back to make sure you fully understand what the person is saying. Either that or your are deliberately attempting to twist my words to mean something other then what I am saying. For the record, I have no cricles, or circles either. (I apologize for teasing your typo, it made me giggle though.) I don’t get out much, and I’ve only met a handful of parents of children with autism and most of those parents didn’t seem at all interested in maintaining contact since they felt no kinship to me since my son did not ‘develop autism after getting his MMR’ like those others I have met claim. They don’t seem to know what to talk to me about after that. I find that odd considering the autism is still something we have in common. I believe this is from lack on previous meaningful conversations focused on autism and not on vaccines.

    Like

  114. Joe
    August 23, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @Lara
    I wish you all the best Lara…keep strong…seems like you do.

    Like

  115. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    @ Julie: Are you replying to me (I am a registered nurse) or to Lara (who has six children)?

    Like

  116. August 23, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    That was some of the BEST and most informed pushing it back (referring to the mislead vaccine safe and effective propaganda), reply posting I have ever seen anywhere. Steve Michaels and Ella, Joe, etc. I thank you, and I couldn’t have said it better.

    It is long past time that the CDC and the vaccine promoters actually take a look at and acknowledge the existing vaccine harm scientific studies that are already there. They as well need to expand their investigative knowledge, based on those studies, by doing more studies that will refine even more the knowledge that is already clearly there. They refuse and will always refuse, because the outcome is not one they want to acknowledge, and that is one that proves once and for all what is actually going on with the issue of safety and effectiveness of not only vaccines but in regard to the use of repeat multiple vaccines. The studies that actually show safety of vaccines are so lacking and so few, that this necessity for data has clearly been since day one, a long past since its time, priority. This is even more-so a priority today as there seems to be no end to what they would call the in the works current research by pharmaceutical companies to bring even more and more vaccines to the CDC schedule. Well of course, why wouldn’t they; as now since 1987 they have had the opportunity to create vaccines that carry no liability for them, no matter what. What other industry is allowed that? Why should they be allowed that; simply because they quite falsely claim to have all the science, and without question they believe it?

    So, then what would be the answer to try and bring this monster into some form of accountability? Congressional hearings with the CDC and FDA, and perhaps a few main line pharmaceutical companies, would be the only next best option, correct? Instead we have the DOJ investigating and fining these pharmaceutical companies huge amounts, millions if not billions repeatedly, one after another for fraud over drug manufacture dealings and actions. The lasts being the Merck scandal where it had gone on for so many years that their own scientists sued them for spiking their MMR vaccine, mumps component with animal antibodies to make it appear adequately effective. An no one ever goes to jail. They simply pay the penalty and go on with business as usual.

    Do you think the question should be asked as to why the congress is not investigating the issues of the lack of vaccine safety? First, they are obviously or apparently oblivious to the reality that exists. Below is another reason and example that clearly it is not happening. Bought off. So, who is actually protecting the public.

    How many pharmaceutical company lobbyists exist in Washington? Here is a basic expose on what existed through the years 2006. Without question even more money is spent today.

    Pharmaceutical lobby

    The top twenty pharmaceutical companies and their two trade groups, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and Biotechnology Industry Organization, lobbied on at least 1,600 pieces of legislation between 1998 and 2004. According to the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics, pharmaceutical companies spent $900 million on lobbying between 1998 and 2005, more than any other industry. During the same period, they donated $89.9 million to federal candidates and political parties, giving approximately three times as much to Republicans as to Democrats.[1] According to the Center for Public Integrity, from January 2005 through June 2006 alone, the pharmaceutical industry spent approximately $182 million on Federal lobbying.[2] The industry has 1,274 registered lobbyists in Washington D.C. [3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby

    Like

  117. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Lowell, your Vacfacts website is inoperable.

    Your copypasta from Wikipedia has this notation:

    “The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (September
    2011)”

    Like

  118. August 23, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Lawrence :
    @ella – where is my comment did I call your son a “thing” in fact, if you look at AoA – that is what a lot of the parents there are intimating what they consider their autistic children to be “lost, not there, not my child, etc” which they use to excuse the horrible bio-med quack treatments they inflict on their children.
    And ella, the amount of thimersol in vaccines nowadays, if it even has it (and the MMR never did) is so tiny – but parents are saying their children have huge levels of mercury in their blood. This is not possible – mercury does not grow, does not reproduce – you are leeching minerals right out of your children’s bones by using Chelation….it is a barbaric practice – you are the one abusing your child, not me.
    @Joe – you can agree to disagree – but we have the facts and science on our side.

    Are you telling me that 25 mcg of thimerosal content in a vaccine delivered to the arm of a pregnant woman that was told she had been recommended a flu shot, that this has been proven safe? When and by who? If so, then why has the FDA not approved this practice? it is a little known fact the even though the CDC recommends it, the FDA has clearly not approved it because no adequate safety studies have been done.

    When you talk about safety studies Lawrence, in regard to thimerosal, do you actually think and believe that it is enough in itself to simply do a CDC funded study epidemiological study; and with a bogus outcome that claimed the incidence of ASD went up after removal of thimerosal? When they took the thimerosal out which they know actually is a metal that also increases the adjuvant effect, like aluminum, what did they do? Answer, they increased the amount of aluminum adjuvant. So, with those epidemiological studies they looked at one vaccine ingredient, and one vaccine;thimerosal and the MMR vaccine. And as the CDC states, all the needed science is in, and we looked at it all, and there is no need to look any further. And do you actually believe that, Lawrence? I surely do not.

    Why has not the CDC acknowledged any of these studies regarding the MMR vaccine? They claim Dr. Wakefield’s study was never reproduced, when in fact it was, with the same and more findings. look at as well all the supporting sties to that 1998 study finding. We have been LIED to! As a fact. After publishing of that study the UK gov’t even went so far as to remove the single vaccines from the market and the shelves, obviously to make sure the truth was never known. Wakefield had never advocated for not vaccinating, he only put forth that the single vaccines should be used until more study was done on the MMR vaccine. But no, as always, profits come before safety.

    Callous Disregard-Research
    http://www.callous-disregard.com/research.htm

    Why was aluminum in 1929 given by the FDA a status of (GRAS), generally regarded as safe; and even though it has been used as well as an aluminum adjuvant in the forms of
    aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, and amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate; in the year 2012, sell no actual safety studies have been done. At this point they simply claim to that consuming aluminum in foods is detoxed the same way as if injected, with absolutely no physiological nor biological proof of that claim. In fact common sense would and should tell you that there is no way that could be true.They claim the amounts of aluminum in vaccines is smaller than that which is on average consumed. This type of argument is simply less than even junk science, as there is not even as much as a logical bases for it. I would like to see some aluminum adjuvant safety studies posted by someone, anyone. They do not exist.

    Like

  119. lilady
    August 23, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @ Lowell: The vacfacts link to your name is still down.

    Anyone who uses the disgraced and delicensed Andrew Wakefield’s book as a source…is automatically disqualified as a credible debater when discussing vaccines.

    Like

  120. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    I must admit that I don’t see much more to add to this conversation except to say that Lara continues to come across as an apologist and a bit unbalanced. The concept of splitting haris between autism-like and actual autism is, frankly, laughable. Disease is charachterized by symptoms in all clinical diagnoses. There is no blood test for autism. There is no laboratory confirmation per say. It is a conglomeration of ‘autism-like’ symptoms that define ‘autism’. Is it true that autism can exist in the absence of vaccination? Yes. Does that mean that vaccine do not cause autism? NO. To make that claim, as Lara does, is non sequitor. A does NOT follow B in logic. Is it true that you can die without being in a car accident? Yes. Does that mean that car accidents can not kill people? NO. It is the same logical structure, but the constants have been changed to highlight the fallacy.

    And no Ella, I have not read Kafka but I can see the point. I find it interesting that you have been attacked for potentially posting under a pseudonym as opposed to your real name. Whether this is true or not is really irrelevant. The fact that this potential has been used as a justification to dismiss you is simply a diversionary tactic. Whether true or not, it allows those who disagree with you to dismiss you without confronting your points. It is easy for the casual reader to fall for this diversion, but the truth is that if they don’t address your points and choose to use diversion, your points still stand uncontested.

    As for Melody RN, I suggest you read the link below. Even the AMA allows and supports vaccine exemptions. Here is an excerpt from the AMA Code of Ethics:

    “In the context of a highly transmissible disease that poses significant medical risk for vulnerable patients or colleagues, or threatens the availability of the health care workforce, particularly a disease that has potential to become epidemic or pandemic, and for which there is an available, safe, and effective vaccine, physicians have an obligation to:

    (a) Accept immunization absent a recognized medical, religious, or philosophic reason to not be immunized.

    (b) Accept a decision of the medical staff leadership or health care institution, or other appropriate authority to adjust practice activities if not immunized (e.g., wear masks or refrain from direct patient care). It may be appropriate in some circumstances to inform patients about immunization status. (I, II)”

    Please note that the Code allows for MEDICAL, RELIGIOUS OR PHILOSOPHIC reasons. If it’s good enough for the AMA, why should it be denied to the public at large?

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/medical-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion9133.page

    I must admit that I always marvel at the argument that NOT being vaccinated puts others at risk. The unsaid assumption is that ‘others’ are actually vaccinated or can not be vaccinated for medical reasons (like vaccines would probably kill them or they are too young and not developed enough), yet vaccines are safe (even though they may kill some people) and they are effective (even though the vaccinated may get sick from the unvaccinated). The bottom line is that vaccines are neither as safe nor as effective as is promoted by the establishment when trying to get people to be vaccinated.

    Like

  121. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    I was turning over the idea that any child who reacts to a vaccine would certainly have died had they gotten the natural disease, I’ve forgotten which of you posited it. Since in 2002, only 1 in 150 American children were reported by the CDC to have autism, in 2006 it was 1 in 110, and as of April 1 in 88, would this mean that children now would have been twice as likely as children ten years ago to die had they gotten a vaccine-preventable disease, and, if so, could you put forward a hypothesis to explain this rise in hypothetical children dying of mild childhood diseases? It’s even more complicated than that, because the real time figure for autism, based on state and school district counts, is 1 in 50, the 1 in 88 figure only refers to children born in the year 2000. Does this idea only apply to autism, or to other vaccine reactions as well, such as asthma, allergies, bowel disease, etc.? To my knowledge, at no time in the twentieth century did one in fifty American children succumb to a now vaccine-preventable disease.

    An alternative hypothesis would be that children who react have an unusually strong, alert immune system, which goes into inappropriate overdrive when stressed by a highly antigenic vaccine. It is known that the Spanish flu of 1918-9 hit young, healthy people in their twenties the hardest, because their immune systems kicked in so hard that they caused symptoms which often resulted in the death of the patient.

    As for mitochondrial dysfunction, Gerberding admitted in her infamous interview with Gupta (easy to watch on your computer, and highly recommended for its blatant dishonesty) that Hannah Poling’s autism was caused by her vaccines, but that she had a very rare mitochondrial disorder which predisposed her to this severe reaction.

    Boyd Haley, also in Vaccine Epidemic, in “Mercury Toxicity and Vaccine Injury,” p. 166, believes vaccine-delivered thimerosal is a culprit in the current autism epidemic. After spending millions of dollars looking for ‘aufism genes,’ we can certainly say that no significant finding has occurred. Autism does not appear to be a solely genetic disorder. However, studies do indicate that certain individuals may have a genetic susceptibility to a particular environmental toxin.
    How can we be sure that thimerosal is such a toxin? One way is by process of elimination. The toxin that caused the autism epidemic had to increase in all fifty states around 1988 to 1990. This excludes many factory-produced toxins. Children had to be exposed to the toxin before they were two years old. This excludes many other toxins used for discretionary reasons. The toxin has to have a gender bias, in that it is more likely to affect boys than girls. Only mercury-containing compounds can explain such a profound difference; they have a stronger negative effect on human males than on females, in the form of neurological impairment and lethality. This makes thimerosal, delivered via the universal childhood vaccination program, a very likely suspect. In fact, it is the only item that I know of that fits these requirements and observations.
    The toxin causing autism has a corresponding symptom: It also effectively and rapidly induces oxidative stress. (C. Migdal, et al, “Sensitization effect of thimerosal is mediated in vitro via reactive oxygen species and calcium signaling,” Toxicology, 2010 July-August 274(1-3):1-9, Epub 2010 May 10)Nothing is more effective than mercury at inducing oxidative stress, which is identified by exceptionally high mitochondrial dysfunction. Over 85 % of autistic children who have been tested have been diagnosed with such a dysfunction. (SJ James, et al, “Metabolic biomarkers of increased oxidative stress and impaired methylation capacity in children with autism,” Am. J. Cliin. Nutr., 2004 Dec; 80(6):1611-17) Biochemically, the exceptionally tight binding of mercury to the electron transporting system of mitochondria has been proven to cause high production of toxic chemical intermediates, leading to oxidative stress and to many of the biochemical abnormalities found most often in children with autism. (R. Nataf, et al, “Porphyrinuria in Childhood Autistic Disorder: Implications for Environmental Toxicity,” Toxicol. Appl. Pharmacol., 2006 Jul 15;214(2):99-108, Epub 2006 Jun 16)

    Obviously, if 85% of 2% of the pediatric population has this mitochondrial disorder, it really can’t be called extremely rare.

    Like

  122. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    Thanks, Lowell, and your post was great! Would you consider posting here more often?

    Like

  123. Steve Michaels
    August 23, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    lilady :
    @ Lowell: The vacfacts link to your name is still down.
    Anyone who uses the disgraced and delicensed Andrew Wakefield’s book as a source…is automatically disqualified as a credible debater when discussing vaccines.

    That’s what you say when you have no answer. Summary dismissal of information based on source alone is a cop out to avoid addressing the information. Adolph Hitler created VW. Should we never buy a VW because it was a product of Nazi Germany? In fact you go beyond the ridiculous. You claim that if anyone quotes anything from anyone with whom you disagree that nothing can be accepted from that point forward, regardless of source.

    The truth value of ANY comment is not related to it’s source. Truth value is objective. Address the comment or stand in ridicule to all who understand this very basic concept.

    You can disagree with Lowell in that he is wrong in saying that Wakefield “never” advocated non vaccination. He does now, after further research. So that statement is inaccurate, but at the time of the study it is true that Wakefield did not advocate not vaccinating, but continuing with the monovalent vaccines as opposed to the MMR until further research was done. And the British government withdrew the licenses for the monovalent vaccines shortly after the Royal Free study which effectively destroyed the option for any parent who may have been concerned. Vaccination rates did drop, but not because Wakefield said ‘don’t vaccinate’, rather, because the government removed the options for parents to vaccinate individually. So who is to blame? Wakefield for saying vaccinate individually or the government for removing the individual option?

    Like

  124. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Steve,
    Some people split this hair because they heard Gerberding do it in the Gupta interview on the Hannah Poling ruling and think it must be a sophisticated argument. Ginger Taylor, mother of an autistic son who reacted to the DTaP, said, still in Vaccine Epidemic (p. 155), that “our government would not say that Hannah had autism, which she indeed does have. (Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Richard E. Frye, MD, PhD, John Shoffner, MD, Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD, “Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism,” Journal of Child Neurology 21:2 (February 2006) The concession document said that Hannah has a ‘a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.’ (David Kirby, “Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court – Now What?”The Huffington Post, Feb. 25, 2008) By definition, a person diagnosed with a disorder will have features of that disorder. Government attorneys had full access to Hannah Pling’s extensive medical files, which disclose that she has DSM-diagnosed, full-syndrome autism. Yet they referred to her neurological disorder using terms that sounded ambiguous, as if she has something like autism, but not autism. Hannah’s parents repeatedly clarified to the media that their daughter has full-syndrom autism. A scientific journal article further confirmed her diagnosis.( David Kirby, “The Vaccine-Autism Court Document Every American Should Read,” The Huffingon Post, Feb. 26, 2008)

    Like

  125. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Here, here’s the link to the interview:
    http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/03/julie-gerberding-admits-on-cnn-that.html

    Listen to it, first Gerberding says that children with a “rare” mitochondrial disorder who get a usually harmless fever after receiving a vaccination can be toppled into autism by the fever. Then Gupta says, So, can we say vaccines don’t cause autism? And she says reassuringly , No, of course not. Gerberding said in the Washington Post that mitochondrial disorders are associated with autism, but there’s nothing that parents of normal children should worry about. She doesn’t mention that “Hannah seemed ‘normal’before her shots, as did tens of thousands of children who regressed into autism after their shots. In fact, Hannah was above average socially and so highly verbal that, at the age of sixteen months, she had been chosen to be a ‘typical peer’to model appropriate social skills to developmentally disabled children in an early intervention program. Millions of concerned parents wonder about vaccine safety and which of their ‘normal’ children might be at risk of developing autism after vaccination. How could they know?
    Gerbrding’s Washington Post statement raised several troubling questions:
    By definition, regressive autism means that the children were, by all appearances, neurologically ‘normal’ before their diagnosid. In the absence of criteria to identify susceptibility, aren’t all children ‘normal’ before they regress into autism after vaccination?
    How many other children with regressive autism following vaccination have asymptomatic, undiagnosed mitochondrial dysfunciton like Hannah Poling? Was Hannah diagnosed only because her father is a neurologist?
    In the Hannah Poling scenario, a seemingly healthy child suffered a vaccine regression that gave her autism. Autism affects 1% of all U.S. children.(N.B. now 2%) Why aren’t we screening children before vaccination to make sure they are not susceptible, just like Hannah was?” (Ginger Taylor, Vaccine Epidemic p. 157-8)

    Like

  126. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Wow, I just scrolled up and I’m in awe of your posts, Lowell , Joe, and Steve! I thank you from the bottom of my heart fin the name of all of us vaccine-damagedj!

    Like

  127. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    I am now thoroughly convinced that those here who are vaccine refusers either totally lack reading comprehension skills or they are deliberately missing points of thought posted by pro-vaccine commenters. Nobody, including me, ever said that a child who has a severe reaction to a vaccine will most certainly die if they contracted the natural disease. I merely stated, based on what Hannah Poling’s own doctors have said, that contracting a disease (forgive me, I don’t know how to bold type) THAT WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A HIGH FEVER, WOULD HAVE ALSO ACTIVATED HER MITOCHONDRIAL DISORDER AND DUE TO HER PRE-EXISTING VULNERABILITY, SHE WOULD HAVE HAD A GREATER RISK OF DYING FROM THE ACTUAL DISEASE. How do you people get most certainly would die, from greater risk of dying? Honestly, stop putting words in my mouth and learn how to read.

    And as a completely unrelated side note, Mr. Michaels, in what way do I come across as unbalanced and what gives you the professional credentials to make such a claim? And why do you presume to tell me how autism is diagnosed? If you recall I have a child with autism. He is not my only child either. I have 5 before him, all vaccinated on schedule, prior to 1999 and all neurotypical. Why is the only child, born in 2007, not vaccinated on schedule, the only one to develop autism? There is a difference between autism-like symptoms and autism. A person can have 3 or 4 of the symptoms of autism, but if they do not meet all 6 criteria, they do not have autism. That isn’t splitting hairs, that is what the medical and psychiatric professionals say as well. That is why there are clear and concise criteria used and required for a diagnosis. That is fact, not splitting hairs. I have to ask you, how many children do you have and how many of them fall on the spectrum?

    Like

  128. Lowell
    August 23, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    ella :
    Thanks, Lowell, and your post was great! Would you consider posting here more often?

    Only if you agree to pay for a few 100 count bottles of Ibuprofen I will need for the head aches and the the pain in the rear end I always get when posting against these refuse to do and accept any unbiased research and actually get, people. LOL.

    I posted a reply with a long list of relevant studies, but somehow has disappeared. Will try and repost it later.

    Like

  129. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2012/04/hepatitis-b-vaccine-causes.html

    Study that showed that hep-B vaccine causes mitochondrial disorder and cell death

    Apparently there’s a genetic susceptibility to having the mitochondria damaged, but, in the absence of vaccines, these susceptible people probably wouldn’t be catapulted into the disorder. These 80% of autistic children who have the disorder probably would have led normal lives if they hadn’t been vaccinated.

    Like

  130. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Julie,
    Courageous move to refuse the flu vaccine, I hope you continue to do so. Many people are paralyzed or killed outright by it, others develop Alzheimer’s from all the stored aluminum. Much better to just get the flu.

    Like

  131. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Lara,
    Threat of physical violence at AoA? Can you post just that line here?

    Like

  132. ella
    August 23, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    Lara,
    Look at the interview. Gerberding said that in Hannah’s case, it was possible that the high fever caused by the vaccines activated her autism-like symptoms. See references in above posts for proof that Hannah has full-blown autism, not just autism-like symptoms. I saw the interview with her and her parents on the Today show when the verdict was announced four years ago, and I, as well as everyone else who has no opposing agenda, can tell you that Hannah had full-blown autism, caused by the vaccines. Her mitochondrial disorder may never have been activated without them..

    Like

  133. Theodore
    August 23, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    As a professional who crunches numbers for a living the vaccine risk / benefit has officially tipped towards the risk being greater.
    1 in 88.

    Like

  134. Lara Lohne
    August 23, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    @ella, where is the study that shows that 80% of children with autism also have a mitochondrial disorder which caused them to have a vaccine reaction? It’s really interesting how all of those who claim vaccines caused autism in their children started out first, saying, “it was Thimerosal.” Then said, “It’s the MMR vaccine.” And now they are jumping on the same bandwagon with Hannah Poling assuming because one child who has autism like symptoms (but doesn’t have autism) means that all the rest of them must also have the same problem. Mitochondrial disorders are rare, and they are genetic. And mitochondrial activation was not because of the vaccine itself, but because of a high fever. The fever is the key people, not the vaccine. An infection would have caused the same thing to happen, and possibly more due to the damaging nature of the disease. It isn’t that difficult to put it together. Why do you seem to have such difficulty seeing outside your little box?

    Like

  135. August 23, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    reversingvaccineinduceddiseases.com is by a doctor who cured her son of Autism.

    Like

  136. Chris
    August 23, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Ms. Diann, has Dr. Carley been able to get her medical license renewed? It seems it is still revoked due to mental disability.

    Like

  137. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 12:20 am

    @ Chris: The oddest thing about Rebecca Carley is that she *claims* her medical licensed was revoked because she would not vaccinate her young son. Furthermore, the medical license suspension, then revocation had nothing to do with her bizarre medical theories and the many conspiracies she believes in.

    Read the two orders Ellen Diann. See her outrageous behaviors during hearings and while she had visitations with her son. She was so deluded that she brought a “character witness” (a senior doctor during a residency that she never completed) into the hearing…who described Carley’s profound mental problems, even during her residency. This is your vaccine *guru* Ellen?

    Like

  138. Steve Michaels
    August 24, 2012 at 3:47 am

    Lara Lohne :
    I am now thoroughly convinced that those here who are vaccine refusers either totally lack reading comprehension skills or they are deliberately missing points of thought posted by pro-vaccine commenters. Nobody, including me, ever said that a child who has a severe reaction to a vaccine will most certainly die if they contracted the natural disease. I merely stated, based on what Hannah Poling’s own doctors have said, that contracting a disease (forgive me, I don’t know how to bold type) THAT WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A HIGH FEVER, WOULD HAVE ALSO ACTIVATED HER MITOCHONDRIAL DISORDER AND DUE TO HER PRE-EXISTING VULNERABILITY, SHE WOULD HAVE HAD A GREATER RISK OF DYING FROM THE ACTUAL DISEASE. How do you people get most certainly would die, from greater risk of dying? Honestly, stop putting words in my mouth and learn how to read.
    And as a completely unrelated side note, Mr. Michaels, in what way do I come across as unbalanced and what gives you the professional credentials to make such a claim? And why do you presume to tell me how autism is diagnosed? If you recall I have a child with autism. He is not my only child either. I have 5 before him, all vaccinated on schedule, prior to 1999 and all neurotypical. Why is the only child, born in 2007, not vaccinated on schedule, the only one to develop autism? There is a difference between autism-like symptoms and autism. A person can have 3 or 4 of the symptoms of autism, but if they do not meet all 6 criteria, they do not have autism. That isn’t splitting hairs, that is what the medical and psychiatric professionals say as well. That is why there are clear and concise criteria used and required for a diagnosis. That is fact, not splitting hairs. I have to ask you, how many children do you have and how many of them fall on the spectrum?

    Firstly Lara, why must you use such inflammatory language? ‘Vaccine refuser’? If someone decides not to drink milk does that make them a ‘milk refuser’? I am sure that your choice of label is consciously used to attempt to discredit by smear anyone with whom you disagree. In debate, smearing your opponent is considered a sign of a weak position.

    Secondly, In the Hannah Poling case, it is quite rich of you to say that IF she had contracted a high fever from a disease (which she had not had to that point) in some way justifies the giving of a vaccine with a fairly common adverse reaction of high fever is not only flawed logic but shows an appalling lack of understanding of the purpose of medicine. Medicine is supposed to work at curing NOT harming. Hannah was still two steps away from the trigger without the vaccine. She needed to contract a disease AND said disease would have to cause a fever. By giving her the vaccine, it moved her to one step away. That violates the ‘do no harm’ principle of medicine.

    Thirdly, I am qualified to make an assessment as a rational human being when I see another human being who attempts to make points through invalid argument chains, non sequitor conclusions and refuses to see the obvious when it is pointed out. You also assign truth values to statements without providing sufficient evidence of the proof. Remember, in the case of ANY medical procedure it is the duty of the medical establishment to prove safety first NOT of a patient to prove harm. You and yours convoluted the argument by attempting to shift the burden of proof.

    Fourthly, the thimerasol issue was a partial red herring thrown out by pharma because they knew that they could remove it and claim safety afterwards. The truth is that there have been NO safety studies concerning synergistic interactions between the ingredients and pathogens of the vaccine schedule (unless you consider that every time a new vaccine is added, the autism rate climbs). You say ‘prove it was the vaccine’ but it is up to you to prove that it was not. Once correlation has been established, and it has, vaccines should have been pulled off the market. Why didn’t Julie Gerberding protect the public during the pandemic that never was? Well now that she is head of Merck International Vaccine Division, we can all see how the revolving door works.

    Lastly, outside the US a Court of Law has ruled that there is a link between vaccines and autism. I am relatively certain that this ruling has not been publicized in the US media nor discussed much in public at all.

    http://www.nyrnaturalnews.com/chemicals-2/2012/05/italian-court-rules-mmr-vaccine-did-trigger-autism/

    By the way, one of the ways that you can tell that thimerasol was a red herring by the industry is that it was NEVER used in MMR because, as a live vaccine, the thimerasol would have killed the pathogens, yet when the MMR/autism link went viral (no pun intended), industry paid researchers and the industry itself immediately latched on to the thimerasol claim. Why? Thimerasol was never part of the MMR debate, but it was an easy scapegoat to ‘fix’ since it is not a required ingredient.

    Like

  139. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 5:48 am

    Using the phrase ‘vaccine refusers’ is not inflammatory as that is what they call themselves. You are not sure of my intentions or motives at all because you completely and totally missed the point and are being deliberately antagonistic in your response.

    There is a reason pediatricians advised parents to give acetaminophen or ibuprofen to a child after a vaccine is given, to ease any pain and keep temperature down when a fever is a known side effect. I know of many parents who don’t give analgesics after vaccines because they don’t really believe it necessary. Since I don’t know the particulars in this case I will not speculate. Given that a wild pathogen can cause serious damage, including but not limited to, high fever, (which typically in many diseases is the first symptom of infection) in the case of Hannah Poling, yes, the vaccine was safer then her getting an infection. You have also overlooked the large part of medicine which is not just treating/curing illness, disease and injury but also preventing it. Please don’t mince words, seat belts in a car are considered preventative, door locks, helmets when riding a motorcycle, all of these are also preventative. Yes, I realize they are not medicine, but I also realize they don’t prevent accidents from happening, but they can lessen or prevent serious injury or death should an accident occur. There are many things in medicine that are preventative, our knowledge of nutrition was the first step, vaccination is another step. No matter how healthy and well nourished a person is, it will not make them immune to infectious disease, but vaccines can.

    You have not provided any data showing how you perceive me as unbalanced, and since you are not a professional, you’ll forgive me if I believe you are merely attempting to make me look bad *strawman* because my arguments, my experiences and the knowledge that I share is valid and you can’t actually argue with what I’ve been saying so you choose to attack me instead. My statements are backed up by science, by what I have experienced and observed in my own life and by what history and epidemiology has shown us. I don’t have to prove what I say, other people already have.

    The thimerosal issue was brought up first by parents of children with autism attempting to get compensation from the US government by claiming that the thimerosal in vaccines caused the autism. They were a separate but unified group of those participating in the Autism Omnibus hearings. There were three arguments that they took to the hearing, thimerosal causes autism, the MMR causes autism and the all too familiar too many too soon argument. Even with three points, all essentially contradicting the other, they still were unable to prove any of those three arguments were in any way contributing factors to their children developing autism. Science has found over years of study, world wide, that there is no correlation between vaccines and autism, therefore there is no further need to study it.

    I am familiar with the court ruling in Italy, however, as it has been stated here multiple times, a court of law cannot make a ruling on a scientific principal, they lack the jurisdiction (that’s a joke) since they deal with the laws made by man and science deals with the laws of nature which were hear long before we were. I will also not accept a court hearing that would rule wearing the color pink will keep me from getting diabetes. Yes, it is ridiculous, but so is a court trying to create science, since they are lawyers, not scientists.

    As someone who claims to support the anti-vaccine stance, you don’t seem to really know much about your own history. Perhaps you should read up on that and then come back when you know more about what they claim. I can guarantee you that we all know what they claim and their claims have been disproved, multiple times. I asked you a couple of questions, (nice dodge by the way). I’d love to hear your answers since I need to know exactly how much experience you have with children in general and autistic children specifically to know whether or not it’s even worth my time attempting to communicate with you on equal ground. My guess, since you side stepped it so deftly, is the answer to both questions is none. If that is the case, you cannot speak about things you do not know, therefore it’s best you refrain before you embarrass yourself further.

    Like

  140. Karmen RN, BSN
    August 24, 2012 at 8:55 am

    Thank you Ella and others for your wonderful support and intelligent input! I am an RN as well and one of the many roles I have filled was that of the county health nurse. I gave hundreds and hundreds of vaccines. I could not have told you one ingredient in them. I had never studied VAERS data. I NEVER did one lick of research into vaccines and the many sides to them. I bought the pharma line hook line and sinker. I was I.G.N.O.R.A.N.T. I believed high fevers, high pitched back arching nonstop inconsolable crying was “normal”. (Feel free to slap me now). I never even questioned how my generation all had the measles, mumps and chicken pox and did very well with them but my children would surely die if they caught them. (Knocking my head against the keyboard now). Then I had to witness my own baby suffer terribly after the MMR that I HELD HIM DOWN and gave to him. That is the even that prompted me to dissect vaccines and antibiotics. Let’s not stop at vaccines and antibiotics though. I spent days and nights barely sleeping, partly due to my sons brain injury and subsequent insomnia and partly due to my quest to pin point the cause and FIX IT! I studied nutrition, biology, chemistry, metals, pharmaceuticals, vitamins, minerals and the list goes on and on. I desperately wanted solid proof that I DID NOT harm my own baby. I finally had to admit that i blindly followed greedy corporations and harmed my son. You think I wanted to do that???? NEVER! Now I spend my time caring for my severely disabled 16 year old son and spreading the message to everyone I can reach to educate before you EVER even consider vaccinating. If we stopped the vaccine program today, “autism” rates would plummet. FACT. That is what they are so afraid of. If more and more parents refuse to vaccinate brain injury rates/”autism” rates would drop drastically in just a couple years. Then what? Admit they and we were all ignorant? Why not?

    Like

  141. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 8:58 am

    Steve Michaels as his sole citation brings up the Remini Magistrate’s decision…which has been touted as a landmark case by all the notorious anti-vaccine websites.

    Here’s the facts Steve.

    The child was given the MMR vaccine. The mother while under oath swore that the child received the vaccine at 7 months of age, then while still under oath, stated the child received the vaccine at 15 months of age.

    The “expert witness” is an Italian doctor who has no special credentials, has written his own anti-vaccine book and has a special *cure* for autism. He should have been disqualified as an “expert witness”

    This is the best part of the case Steve, it’s a “landmark” case because Wakefield’s fraudulent research was the only piece of “evidence” used by the plaintiff.

    The case is under appeal right now and in the opinion of legal experts the verdict will be overturned. The plaintiff’s decision, based solely on the Wakefield diagnosis of autistic enterocolitis, has been roundly condemned by legal experts, doctors, scientists and judges throughout the world. You need to stop using anti-vaccine websites as your sources Steve. They skew information which is not in the interests of science.

    Like

  142. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 9:33 am

    @ Karmen RN:

    I really doubt that you worked as a county nurse. Your claim that you held your baby down AND administered the MMR vaccine to him, is not the way that is recommended to immunize any child. Didn’t your supervisor oversee your immunization “technique”?

    You also claim you never studied vaccines…which is a blatant lie if as you claim you are a college graduate and a registered nurse. How ever did you pass your nursing boards without studying immunology and vaccines that protect children against serious, sometimes deadly vaccines.

    Now about your “work experience” where you claim you knew nothing about VAERS…when the VAERS information is at the bottom of each VIS (Vaccine Information Statement) that you are required to give each patient/parent BEFORE you administer the vaccine. The VIS compliance is a federal law. No matter which county and no matter which state you practiced in, doctors and nurses are required to be compliant with their State’s health and education laws that all require that doctors and nurses give each patient/parent the VIS…in compliance with Federal and State laws.

    You never attended vaccine teleconferences…that were broadcast yearly…by the CDC, you never had occasion to refer to the CDC Pink Book or the AAP Red Book…is that what you claim Karmen?

    I worked in my health department’s division of communicable disease control, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I know only too well how deadly these diseases can be. I also worked as a clinic nurse and gave thousands of vaccines to kids and adults during clinic hours. I set up special clinics and immunized kids and adults whenever their was an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease and coordinated the immunization program in my large (1.2 million residents) county. You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.

    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?

    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.

    Like

  143. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 9:36 am

    lilady :
    @ Chris: The oddest thing about Rebecca Carley is that she *claims* her medical licensed was revoked because she would not vaccinate her young son. Furthermore, the medical license suspension, then revocation had nothing to do with her bizarre medical theories and the many conspiracies she believes in.
    Read the two orders Ellen Diann. See her outrageous behaviors during hearings and while she had visitations with her son. She was so deluded that she brought a “character witness” (a senior doctor during a residency that she never completed) into the hearing…who described Carley’s profound mental problems, even during her residency. This is your vaccine *guru* Ellen?

    The oddest thing about you lilady is that you are so deluded that you can not see the forest, from the trees, and you go on and on demonizing anyone that puts forth the truth; and its flat out sickening. All you are doing is promoting the baseless lies about Dr Carley, period. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be that unable to see the truth, unless it is all done deliberately. Every person with the truth is automatically delivered the title of being a quack, right? Everyone but you, and those who are brainwashed enough to support your trade. Who pays you?

    Like

  144. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Lowell :

    lilady :
    @ Chris: The oddest thing about Rebecca Carley is that she *claims* her medical licensed was revoked because she would not vaccinate her young son. Furthermore, the medical license suspension, then revocation had nothing to do with her bizarre medical theories and the many conspiracies she believes in.
    Read the two orders Ellen Diann. See her outrageous behaviors during hearings and while she had visitations with her son. She was so deluded that she brought a “character witness” (a senior doctor during a residency that she never completed) into the hearing…who described Carley’s profound mental problems, even during her residency. This is your vaccine *guru* Ellen?

    The oddest thing about you lilady is that you are so deluded that you can not see the forest, from the trees, and you go on and on demonizing anyone that puts forth the truth; and its flat out sickening. All you are doing is promoting the baseless lies about Dr Carley, period. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be that unable to see the truth, unless it is all done deliberately. Every person with the truth is automatically delivered the title of being a quack, right? Everyone but you, and those who are brainwashed enough to support your trade. Who pays you?

    Those “baseless lies” were direct quotes from the case against her. Now tell me, why do you worship Satan?

    Like

  145. novalox
    August 24, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Lowell :

    lilady :
    @ Chris: The oddest thing about Rebecca Carley is that she *claims* her medical licensed was revoked because she would not vaccinate her young son. Furthermore, the medical license suspension, then revocation had nothing to do with her bizarre medical theories and the many conspiracies she believes in.
    Read the two orders Ellen Diann. See her outrageous behaviors during hearings and while she had visitations with her son. She was so deluded that she brought a “character witness” (a senior doctor during a residency that she never completed) into the hearing…who described Carley’s profound mental problems, even during her residency. This is your vaccine *guru* Ellen?

    The oddest thing about you lilady is that you are so deluded that you can not see the forest, from the trees, and you go on and on demonizing anyone that puts forth the truth; and its flat out sickening. All you are doing is promoting the baseless lies about Dr Carley, period. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be that unable to see the truth, unless it is all done deliberately. Every person with the truth is automatically delivered the title of being a quack, right? Everyone but you, and those who are brainwashed enough to support your trade. Who pays you?

    So, lowell, since you cannot dispute lilady’s evidence, you resort to insults and the old “pharma shill” gambit.

    Nice to know that you have conceded the argument and that you acknowledge you are wrong..

    Like

  146. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 9:54 am

    lilady :
    @ Karmen RN:
    I really doubt that you worked as a county nurse. Your claim that you held your baby down AND administered the MMR vaccine to him, is not the way that is recommended to immunize any child. Didn’t your supervisor oversee your immunization “technique”?
    How ever did you pass your nursing boards without studying immunology and vaccines that protect children against serious, sometimes deadly vaccines.
    Now about your “work experience” where you claim you knew nothing about VAERS…when the VAERS information is at the bottom of each VIS (Vaccine Information Statement) that you are required to give each patient/parent BEFORE you administer the vaccine. The VIS compliance is a federal law. No matter which county and no matter which state you practiced in, doctors and nurses are required to be compliant with their State’s health and education laws that all require that doctors and nurses give each patient/parent the VIS…in compliance with Federal and State laws.
    You never attended vaccine teleconferences…that were broadcast yearly…by the CDC, you never had occasion to refer to the CDC Pink Book or the AAP Red Book…is that what you claim Karmen?
    I worked in my health department’s division of communicable disease control, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I know only too well how deadly these diseases can be. I also worked as a clinic nurse and gave thousands of vaccines to kids and adults during clinic hours. I set up special clinics and immunized kids and adults whenever their was an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease and coordinated the immunization program in my large (1.2 million residents) county. You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.
    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?
    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.

    You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.
    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?
    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.

    You know what lilady? You really need to get the boot from reply posting on this article any further. Your disgusting rants in personal attack leave me wanting to gag. The far more than direct claims and insinuations you make are unfounded and incorrect on every level. The reason she did not study vaccines as to what she is actually referring to, is that she never studied the unbiased information, and learned the truth. In fact you will NEVER learn what she actually needed to know fro either the doctor or nurses indoctrinated training. What you have written there is beyond twisted it just oozes of contempt for anyone that dares to state and claim they have a vaccine damaged child. Perhaps you think it was something else or all imagined. And how is hold a child so they do not move during the shots some sort of abuse? The shots ARE the abuse, woman!

    How about taking some responsibility yourself for the medical establishment that promoted the harm as entirely safe that, came to her son? How about having an ounce within you of some compassion? No responsibility ever, and they can not be sued. Thus nothing will ever change, and that change is so very needed. I hope you continue to have a good day, bashing anyone that doesn’t follow your indoctrinated mantra. I think you are scared. I think you are desperate. The reason for that is that you can not handle the fact that so many children have been vaccine damaged, and that you actually were part of that. So, YOU have to continue the oh no, we were always the vaccine saviors, never having done more harm than good, and fear and fear monger som more about all those horrible and deadly diseases. Nice job. Wow.

    Like

  147. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Those “baseless lies” were direct quotes from the case against her. Now tell me, why do you worship Satan?

    The case against her, Dr Carley was based on lies. Did you read any of the article statements, I provided? Nothing is enough and never will be. You must deny it all.

    And as a fact I will never worship Satan, as I choose a creator that gave a human being an immune system for a reason, and it was not to slamb endless toxic, harmful and dangerous vaccines into. Who do you serve and worship at the church of allopathy there, Gray. Obviously it is not God? You people top anything I have ever seen for being flat out sick and twisted. Straight up evil.

    Like

  148. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Lowell :

    lilady :
    @ Karmen RN:
    I really doubt that you worked as a county nurse. Your claim that you held your baby down AND administered the MMR vaccine to him, is not the way that is recommended to immunize any child. Didn’t your supervisor oversee your immunization “technique”?
    How ever did you pass your nursing boards without studying immunology and vaccines that protect children against serious, sometimes deadly vaccines.
    Now about your “work experience” where you claim you knew nothing about VAERS…when the VAERS information is at the bottom of each VIS (Vaccine Information Statement) that you are required to give each patient/parent BEFORE you administer the vaccine. The VIS compliance is a federal law. No matter which county and no matter which state you practiced in, doctors and nurses are required to be compliant with their State’s health and education laws that all require that doctors and nurses give each patient/parent the VIS…in compliance with Federal and State laws.
    You never attended vaccine teleconferences…that were broadcast yearly…by the CDC, you never had occasion to refer to the CDC Pink Book or the AAP Red Book…is that what you claim Karmen?
    I worked in my health department’s division of communicable disease control, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I know only too well how deadly these diseases can be. I also worked as a clinic nurse and gave thousands of vaccines to kids and adults during clinic hours. I set up special clinics and immunized kids and adults whenever their was an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease and coordinated the immunization program in my large (1.2 million residents) county. You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.
    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?
    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.

    You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.
    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?
    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.
    You know what lilady? You really need to get the boot from reply posting on this article any further. Your disgusting rants in personal attack leave me wanting to gag. The far more than direct claims and insinuations you make are unfounded and incorrect on every level. The reason she did not study vaccines as to what she is actually referring to, is that she never studied the unbiased information, and learned the truth. In fact you will NEVER learn what she actually needed to know fro either the doctor or nurses indoctrinated training. What you have written there is beyond twisted it just oozes of contempt for anyone that dares to state and claim they have a vaccine damaged child. Perhaps you think it was something else or all imagined. And how is hold a child so they do not move during the shots some sort of abuse? The shots ARE the abuse, woman!
    How about taking some responsibility yourself for the medical establishment that promoted the harm as entirely safe that, came to her son? How about having an ounce within you of some compassion? No responsibility ever, and they can not be sued. Thus nothing will ever change, and that change is so very needed. I hope you continue to have a good day, bashing anyone that doesn’t follow your indoctrinated mantra. I think you are scared. I think you are desperate. The reason for that is that you can not handle the fact that so many children have been vaccine damaged, and that you actually were part of that. So, YOU have to continue the oh no, we were always the vaccine saviors, never having done more harm than good, and fear and fear monger som more about all those horrible and deadly diseases. Nice job. Wow.

    Yeah, I mean, just because Karmen was shown to be clearly lying about everything she said doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat her statements as true anyway!

    Like

  149. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Lowell :
    Those “baseless lies” were direct quotes from the case against her. Now tell me, why do you worship Satan?
    The case against her, Dr Carley was based on lies. Did you read any of the article statements, I provided? Nothing is enough and never will be. You must deny it all.
    And as a fact I will never worship Satan, as I choose a creator that gave a human being an immune system for a reason, and it was not to slamb endless toxic, harmful and dangerous vaccines into. Who do you serve and worship at the church of allopathy there, Gray. Obviously it is not God? You people top anything I have ever seen for being flat out sick and twisted. Straight up evil.

    If you believe in God, then why do you think “do not bear false witness” was merely a strongly-worded suggestion?

    Like

  150. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 10:19 am

    @Gray Felcon

    Yeah, I mean, just because Karmen was shown to be clearly lying about everything she said doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat her statements as true anyway!

    If you believe in God, then why do you think “do not bear false witness” was merely a strongly-worded suggestion?

    ————

    Karmen was not lying. Exactly? Lying about what? That her pharma profit paid and schooled indoctrinated nurses training only told her vaccines were safe, and when she believed that and vaccinated her child, she found out it was not true? In the fact that now she knows that she should have investigated the unbiased information about vaccines. Because she wishes that she had not just trusted her training, and learned the truth before her son was damaged, not after? She is lying about that? What has she lied about, fool? That is so beyond sick and ridiculous, its pathetic! Who actually lied? Big Pharma, the CDC, Paul Offit, etc.; you, lilady…yaa thats right, exactly.

    If you want to claim and talk about bearing false witness, so called Felcon; you better first look in the mirror and examine your own hypocrisy in making that claim, as to me. Sick!!!

    Like

  151. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:27 am

    She showed she was lying because she

    Lowell :
    @Gray Felcon
    Yeah, I mean, just because Karmen was shown to be clearly lying about everything she said doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat her statements as true anyway!
    If you believe in God, then why do you think “do not bear false witness” was merely a strongly-worded suggestion?
    ————
    Karmen was not lying. Exactly? Lying about what? That her pharma profit paid and schooled indoctrinated nurses training only told her vaccines were safe, and when she believed that and vaccinated her child, she found out it was not true? In the fact that now she knows that she should have investigated the unbiased information about vaccines. Because she wishes that she had not just trusted her training, and learned the truth before her son was damaged, not after? She is lying about that? What has she lied about, fool? That is so beyond sick and ridiculous, its pathetic! Who actually lied? Big Pharma, the CDC, Paul Offit, etc.; you, lilady…yaa thats right, exactly.
    If you want to claim and talk about bearing false witness, so called Felcon; you better first look in the mirror and examine your own hypocrisy in making that claim, as to me. Sick!!!

    Karmen’s statements were utterly inconsistent with reality, but she was trying to convince us they were true. That is what is known as “lying”.

    Like

  152. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:30 am

    For example, Karmen claimed to have had to “held him down” while vaccinating him. Anyone familiar with the basics of pediatric medicine would know that a nurse should not do that.

    Like

  153. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Regarding Dr Carley,

    Excerpt from the below article link:
    http://www.mothering.com/community/t/76033/the-seizure-of-dr-carleys-medical-license-antivax-dr

    My previous letter on the judicial atrocities facing Dr. Carley, MD a Hicksville, NY physician (attached) who they have declared incompetent, because she blew the whistle on dangerous vaccines. However, she was judged competent by at least 10 other professional psychologists during all her court appearances. She is a trained surgeon from one of the toughest hospitals and medical schools in NYC. You can’t be delusional if you have proof and the documentation, just as Rep. Dan Burton’s Congressional Thimerosal hearings. We must get her story out to the media. Her treatment has provided reversal from the dangerous vaccines for hundreds of victims, something Big Pharma doesn’t want to happen, but your children’s lives may depend on it! — That’s big money and that’s their only motivation!

    ———

    Of course the state medical arena is going to make an effort to falsely discredit the efforts of and to take the license of the only court qualified expert in VIDS in the country. What, you can not comprehend the likes of a state board doing that? That surely is some amazing denial, you have.

    Like

  154. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Karmen’s statements were utterly inconsistent with reality, but she was trying to convince us they were true. That is what is known as “lying”.

    For example, Karmen claimed to have had to “held him down” while vaccinating him. Anyone familiar with the basics of pediatric medicine would know that a nurse should not do that.

    You still have NOT provided any supporting bases to claim she was lying. None, period. Lying about what? That she held him down, when she said she held him down? Do you think she faked the post and is someone else than who she said she is? WHERE is the lie? Nowhere. You just can not and refuse to face the facts that a child was vaccine injured enough to require life long care? What exactly is a lie here? There is nothing, period. Amazing.

    Like

  155. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Any actual news sources, rather than someone trying to sell her services?

    Like

  156. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 10:48 am

    @ Lowell:

    Have you read the license suspension…then the license revocation…of Dr. Carley. I won’t even mention the dreadful procedures she put her son through, while fighting her husband during a divorce action. Her son was never autistic, the child’s father was trying to get the child to a dentist because Dr. Carley had neglected her child’s rotting teeth. She lost her parental rights because of her behavior both before and after the child visitation order was determined by the court. Anyone who has ever read the decisions of the Office of Professional Medical Conduct that suspended then revoked her medical license…and still believes her lies about the circumstances…is highly credulous.

    “Karmen was not lying. Exactly? Lying about what? That her pharma profit paid and schooled indoctrinated nurses training only told her vaccines were safe, and when she believed that and vaccinated her child, she found out it was not true?”

    Gee, wherever did you get the idea that Karmen’s schooling was a *gift* from *Big Pharma*. I paid all the high tuition fees for my university-conferred degree although the university did award me a partial academic scholarship based on my high GPA.

    Have you any proof that Karmen’s holding down her child while vaccinating him herself is standard nursing practice? Have you any proof that Karmen never learned about pediatric communicable diseases and the vaccines that prevent them…say, by providing a course curriculum for a BSc-Nursing program. Show us any University that confers that degree, that does not require biology, organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, anatomy and physiology as core requirements.

    Like

  157. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Because she held him down while the shot was given, makes everything she posted, a lie? How does that work? Anything and everything to falsely discredit the information. No acceptance of spoken fact. Are you claiming that there was no child vaccine injured, and that she made it up? What are you claiming? That was the point here, a child was harmed by a vaccine, and now they need life time care as an adult. Those ARE the risks of vaccines, and they are very real risks that the CDC denies. When even a trained nurse such as this is mislead, that is even more powerful in the message. Do you not get it, or do you just choose not to get it? Why didn’t you just leave it as that; these are the facts, no lies involved. So get over it.

    Like

  158. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Lowell :
    Because she held him down while the shot was given, makes everything she posted, a lie? How does that work? Anything and everything to falsely discredit the information. No acceptance of spoken fact. Are you claiming that there was no child vaccine injured, and that she made it up? What are you claiming? That was the point here, a child was harmed by a vaccine, and now they need life time care as an adult. Those ARE the risks of vaccines, and they are very real risks that the CDC denies. When even a trained nurse such as this is mislead, that is even more powerful in the message. Do you not get it, or do you just choose not to get it? Why didn’t you just leave it as that; these are the facts, no lies involved. So get over it.

    Because it makes it clear that she is more interested in getting an emotional reaction than she is in revealing the truth. I’m not finished either. She claims that she had no way of knowing that vaccines had side effects, when the packaging of the vaccines clearly state otherwise. The official statement is that the benefits outweigh the risks, not that risks do not exist.

    Like

  159. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Lowell: Where did I ever state that no child was ever harmed by a vaccine? I have always stated that the risk for a major adverse event following a vaccine is on the order of 1/1,000,000 for each vaccine.

    The issue here is Karmen’s claim that she is a registered nurse who worked in public health and claims to have no knowledge of vaccines, either in her university classes or during her tenure in public health. The issue is she “never knew about VAERS”…yet she was required by Federal and State laws to provide VISs BEFORE she ever immunized anyone.

    The issue here is what are core requirements in BSc-Nursing programs and what a prospective RN needs to know in order to pass RN State boards. The issue here is proper technique in administering a vaccine to a child. The issue here is in-service vaccine education that is a requirement in order to become certified within a public health agency to administer vaccines and finally, the issue of yearly vaccine updates by CDC staff via teleconferences, and the texts (CDC Pink Book and the AAP Red Book) that every public health nurse refers to.

    Why doesn’t Karmen reply to my questions about what she has reported as a “vaccine injury” and if she has made a claim for that reported injury?

    Like

  160. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:07 am

    lilady :
    @ Lowell:
    Have you read the license suspension…then the license revocation…of Dr. Carley. I won’t even mention the dreadful procedures she put her son through, while fighting her husband during a divorce action. Her son was never autistic, the child’s father was trying to get the child to a dentist because Dr. Carley had neglected her child’s rotting teeth. She lost her parental rights because of her behavior both before and after the child visitation order was determined by the court. Anyone who has ever read the decisions of the Office of Professional Medical Conduct that suspended then revoked her medical license…and still believes her lies about the circumstances…is highly credulous.
    “Karmen was not lying. Exactly? Lying about what? That her pharma profit paid and schooled indoctrinated nurses training only told her vaccines were safe, and when she believed that and vaccinated her child, she found out it was not true?”
    Gee, wherever did you get the idea that Karmen’s schooling was a *gift* from *Big Pharma*. I paid all the high tuition fees for my university-conferred degree although the university did award me a partial academic scholarship based on my high GPA.
    Have you any proof that Karmen’s holding down her child while vaccinating him herself is standard nursing practice? Have you any proof that Karmen never learned about pediatric communicable diseases and the vaccines that prevent them…say, by providing a course curriculum for a BSc-Nursing program. Show us any University that confers that degree, that does not require biology, organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, anatomy and physiology as core requirements.

    And you have zero proof of anything you just stated as to Dr Carley, and as a fact regardless of how or were attained if at all it was, is a complete fabrication, as a fact.

    This is the same old provaccine denial of all gambit, used over and over. Claiming the child never had autism. Calling biomedical treatment dangerous treatments, even if only homeopathy. On an on the in denial of all shill game goes. Never fails.

    No no very well well what was meant by my statements so quit trying to twist into something else. It was not stated that pharma paid for her training, only that the pharma funded school pays for the pharma indoctrination, that the student pay for. Get it? You should.

    Just because have a degree any of those areas does not tell you anything nor educate you on the real dangers of vaccines. Do not even attempt to pay that kind of a complete ignorance card, lilady. And in the several articles I have seen you post on, you were known as something far different than some lilady. Every where you reply post it is the same old garbage and twisted crap, every time. Who pays you, or are you just that delusional and in denial that you must repeatedly defend your vaccinating those what 100’s of children. And if you ever accepted the more harm than good damage vaccine have done to so many children, could you live with it, and keep doing it? Likely not; not any more than Karman RN did. You see for some it has to happen to their own child, directly in front of their eyes before they say its enough and this his to stop, and that “I need to get the message out”. Deny it all you want.

    Like

  161. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Gray Falcon :

    Because it makes it clear that she is more interested in getting an emotional reaction than she is in revealing the truth. I’m not finished either. She claims that she had no way of knowing that vaccines had side effects, when the packaging of the vaccines clearly state otherwise. The official statement is that the benefits outweigh the risks, not that risks do not exist.

    You simply can NOT get any more twisted than that. All you are doing is as I said conducting a personal attack and tear down on anyone that would dare to claim to what she has.

    The POINT is that she did not realize the harm of vaccines, and most doctors and nurses do not. If and when they do have a child with a severe vaccine reaction, their indoctrination always tells them there is not way that it is and the strong denial is always here even when the parents suggest it. If you have not figured that much out, then you either are not aware of much or you are lying about it; which is it?

    In the same breath you still state that the benefits outweigh the risks so there in itself you are contradicting yourself, claiming she should have known. the CDC claims to a figure of 4 in 100,000 that may have a severe and disabling reaction to vaccines. In fact it is a much higher number than that. As well there are many effects from vaccines that do harm but will go unconnected as well to the vaccines. You do not have a clue because you choose not to have a clue. Add to that you are a complete hypocrite. You want to label, people?

    Like

  162. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 11:26 am

    So you’re saying that it shouldn’t matter whether someone is telling the truth or not?

    Like

  163. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Lowell, your refusal to read the Carley decisions…or your refusal to understand the Carley decisions regarding the circumstances surrounding the suspension then revocation of her license…are disingenuous at best.

    *Big Pharma* does not fund universities Lowell. People who are university-educated pay their own fees; some are awarded full or partial scholarships funded by university endowments not funded by *Big Pharma*.

    So where is your research into the core requirements for a Bsc-Nursing degree?

    Where is your research into the standards of nursing practice?

    Where is your research into the knowledge base required to pass nursing boards?

    You know, don’t you, that you are assuming that Karmen’s post is not the work of a hit and run poster. She hasn’t come back to answer my questions.

    Like

  164. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Thanks, Lowell, how wonderful that you are posting such intelligent points! I think of this site as an alligator pit, and if it weren’t that I weren’t concerned that people honestly seeking information on vaccines might be deluded by it, I’d think that it served little purpose to wrestle with alligators.

    Like

  165. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:36 am

    lilady :
    Lowell: Where did I ever state that no child was ever harmed by a vaccine? I have always stated that the risk for a major adverse event following a vaccine is on the order of 1/1,000,000 for each vaccine.
    The issue here is Karmen’s claim that she is a registered nurse who worked in public health and claims to have no knowledge of vaccines, either in her university classes or during her tenure in public health. The issue is she “never knew about VAERS”…yet she was required by Federal and State laws to provide VISs BEFORE she ever immunized anyone.
    The issue here is what are core requirements in BSc-Nursing programs and what a prospective RN needs to know in order to pass RN State boards. The issue here is proper technique in administering a vaccine to a child. The issue here is in-service vaccine education that is a requirement in order to become certified within a public health agency to administer vaccines and finally, the issue of yearly vaccine updates by CDC staff via teleconferences, and the texts (CDC Pink Book and the AAP Red Book) that every public health nurse refers to.
    Why doesn’t Karmen reply to my questions about what she has reported as a “vaccine injury” and if she has made a claim for that reported injury?

    The risk you say in one in one million, yet you say it should not have been unexpected that her child would get harmed by a vaccine or vaccines. Is that not a complete contradiction? Wow.

    If you review VAERS and realize as well that it contains by their own admission only a 1 to 10 percent reporting factor, mostly due to doctors refusal to report, and parents man times not realizing what happend to their child. If you review VAERS you will soon realize that the numbers are far more than 1 in a million, and actually I think they quote 4 in 100,000 by CDC entry, but would have to look it up again. Do the math as well as it is stated that 1 to 10 percent reporting factor is real. So your statements here amount to a massive contradiction as well.

    The you go into the next tirade as if you are blaming this mother, nurse for what. Simply holding the child down improperly? I would be far more worried about that vaccine than child ever being held down. What a twisted set of claims you have there. So what are you saying, that the mother caused the vaccine damage by improperly holding the child down while given the shots. Insanity?

    Why are you so worried about if she reported to VAERS? The doctors and nurses often refuse to report to VAERS, is that not being a little hypocritical. I am sure she did, and would make sense. The point was that even as a nurse she sis not know of the vaccine risks and it took having her own child harmed to realize the reality of vaccines. That is the message, and you want to tear her apart in any twisted way that you think you can. Make her at fault. No, not the CDC nor FDA, nor any other so called authority; for their denial of the harm, and their lack of admission as to how often it really happens. No, you want to blame the mother in some way, and in any way you can make it happen. You people are absolutely pathetic.

    Like

  166. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 11:37 am

    L,
    Which of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of claims of vaccine damage do you think is the one in a million legitimate one? Can you cite it and give your reasons for believing its authenticity?

    Like

  167. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Gray Falcon :
    So you’re saying that it shouldn’t matter whether someone is telling the truth or not?

    No fool, that is NOT what I said, and you know that it is not. Where do you come up with this crap; throwing that in the mix, just because you can be wrong. Do you actually expect me to continue debating such twisted and unintelligible garbage?

    Like

  168. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Lowell :

    Gray Falcon :
    So you’re saying that it shouldn’t matter whether someone is telling the truth or not?

    No fool, that is NOT what I said, and you know that it is not. Where do you come up with this crap; throwing that in the mix, just because you can be wrong. Do you actually expect me to continue debating such twisted and unintelligible garbage?

    I pointed out several instances where someone was clearly lying, and you respond by say it didn’t matter. I’d say it’s a pretty accurate assessment of your actions.
    Oh, and on VAERS. Each record is simply an accusation, it is up to the courts to determine whether they are accurate or not.

    Like

  169. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:45 am

    ella :
    Thanks, Lowell, how wonderful that you are posting such intelligent points! I think of this site as an alligator pit, and if it weren’t that I weren’t concerned that people honestly seeking information on vaccines might be deluded by it, I’d think that it served little purpose to wrestle with alligators.

    Right on, exactly. But this little bit here is over the line. All these two people do is present twisted claims to go on and argue just to argue; and they argue nothing of substance nor of value to the vaccine safety and effectiveness reality debate.

    Like

  170. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 11:52 am

    lilady :
    Lowell, your refusal to read the Carley decisions…or your refusal to understand the Carley decisions regarding the circumstances surrounding the suspension then revocation of her license…are disingenuous at best.
    *Big Pharma* does not fund universities Lowell. People who are university-educated pay their own fees; some are awarded full or partial scholarships funded by university endowments not funded by *Big Pharma*.
    So where is your research into the core requirements for a Bsc-Nursing degree?
    Where is your research into the standards of nursing practice?
    Where is your research into the knowledge base required to pass nursing boards?
    You know, don’t you, that you are assuming that Karmen’s post is not the work of a hit and run poster. She hasn’t come back to answer my questions.

    Your statements are entirely and completely irrelevant. However I will correct one thing. The schools that train doctors and nurses are funded by pharma, as a fact. And in the fact that you would deny that, shows me clearly your level of complete denial on every level. Those schools have been funded by pharma science the Rockefeller family took them over with their restructuring funding, and since the 1930’s. Wake up! Ever here of the Flexner Report?

    Like

  171. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Lowell,
    I wanted to give grist to your mill. Barbara Loe Fisher, mother of a son severely damaged by the DPT in the late ’70s, wrote “In the Wake of Vaccines,” in which she cites these figures from the CDC:
    “Today the CDC admits that 1 American chld in 166 has been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (this article is almost ten years old, obviously now the rate is one in fifty). In 1970, autism affected 4 in 10,000 children (the rate seen now in Scandinavia, which vaccinates much less than we do). By 1991, 5,000 autistic children were in the public school system; by 2001, that number had grown to 94,000.
    Today, the CDC reports that 9 million American children under 18 have been diagnosed with asthma. In 1979, asthma affected approximately 2 million children under age 14.
    Today, nearly 3 million children in public schools are classified as learning-disabled. In 1976, there were 796,000 learning-disabled children in public schools.
    Today, the CDC reports that 4 million children between the ages of 3 and 17 have been diagnosed with ADHD. The government has only recently bgunmonitoring the numbers of children with ADHD. In 1997, ADHD was reported to affect about 1.6 million elementary school children.
    Today, 206,000 Americans under the age of 20 have type 1 diabetes, while type 2 diabetes is mysteriously on the rise in children and adolescents. The CDC estimates that 1 in 400 to 500 American children and adolescents is now diabetic. Between 1945 and 1969, the incidence of diabetes in children ages 6 to 18 was approximately 1 in 7,100.
    Today, arthritis affects one in three Americans, and about 300,000 American children have juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. Juvenile rheumatoid arthritis used to be so rare that statistics were not kep until its recent rise in children.” (in Mothering magazine reprint issue Vaccines: Mercury, Autism, & Chronic Disease)

    Rates of chronic disease in American children (much higher than twenty years ago, or than in any other country, except maybe Great Britain)
    Asthma 1 in 9
    Allergies 1 in 10
    ADHD 1 in 10
    Learning disability 1 in 6
    Diabetes 1 in 350
    Autism 1 in 50 as per state and school district counts

    DTaP given at 2 months, as per schedule, provides zero protection to the newborn while more than doubling his chance of asthma at 7 compared to those starting the series later:
    “Delay in Diphtheria, Pertussis, Tetanus Vaccination is Associated with a Reduced Risk of Childhood Asthma,” McDonald KL, et al, J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2008 Mar;121(3):626-31. Epub 2008 Jan 18.
    Often called the Manitoba study. Results: Among 11,531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma was reduced to 1/2 in childen whose first dose of DPT was delayed by more than 2 months. The likelihood of asthma in children with delays in all 3 doses wasa 0.39 (95% CI, 0.18-0.86)

    And the risk of asthma is much less than that if they don’t get the pertussis vaccine at all. Another reason parents might reasonably decide not to get the pertussis vaccine: it presents many dangers, is not very effective in a large percentage of cases, and the disease isn’t usually very bad (except in some newborns, who should be quarantined).

    Like

  172. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    I was surprised that the Merck Manual, in which it is admitted that vaccines can cause encephalitis, was said to be the biggest selling medical textbook in the world. I asked a friend who works in a biochemistry lab about it, and she confirmed that. How could a vaccine company be a reputable source for the biggest-selling medical textbook?

    Like

  173. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    Lowell,
    I think Gray is an undergraduate posting from his dorm room, I agree with you, but he may not be worth wasting ammunition on.

    Like

  174. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    Wouldn’t nurses always have to hold a child down whom they were vaccinating, if for no other reason than to make sure the needle went into a safe spot?

    Like

  175. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    @Theodore
    Well said!

    Like

  176. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    ella :.

    Thanks ella.Your numbers I believe are correct, and I have seen them before. Ad they still do not get it, and they never will admit to that kind of harm, as they simply have to much to lose. Think of the liability if it were ever forced to be admitted to, or at least proven in a court of law and/ or by huge fines leveled by the DOJ. Would there be criminal indictments as to what they clearly have known; I think there would and there should be. Are they going to risk losing careers and credibility at that level, not a chance no matter what.

    There can not as well be multiple vaccines repeated that many times with aluminum adjuvants in them, the largest elephant in the room they have entirely overlooked. They simply must refuse to do safety studies at this point, they already know what they would find, to include the issues of ischemia. They clearly have had all that information. No safety studies, FDA classified as (GRAS), generally regarded as safe in 1929. That was only for foods, and it just carried over without a thought, apparently. Over activation of the brains microglia and resulting chronic brain inflammation in some children. that might explain a few of the learning disabilities. But then the adjuvants need to cause inflammation in the body to work, and the oil adjuvants have been known to be just as harmful and as well in regard to triggering autoimmune disease. Yet they as well used peanut oil in vaccines to boost the adjuvant effect, and somehow without it even being required to be listed. Yet they would deny they have an knowledge of the cause of all the new and increased numbers of severe peanut allergies in children. Latex allergies, same thing, by contamination. They think you can safely inject anything that is edible and consumed, and they think they can inject in a vaccine without testing as well, and substance already existent in the human body. I could write pages. They simply refuse to balance the real harm verses good ratio. They deny it all; no matter what.

    Like

  177. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    @Lowell and Ella
    Another point that I would like to make about the “Autism” numbers is that a number of families I know have diagnosis’ that are not included in the count. They sometimes paid $1500.00 or more out of pocket to get the diagnosis so that it wouldn’t be on medical records. There are something like 18 states that insurance won’t cover treatment with a diagnosis of Autism….and that includes things like a broken arm. So think of all of the kids that are diagnosed that are not included in the 1 in 88 number.

    Like

  178. Lowell
    August 24, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    ella :
    I was surprised that the Merck Manual, in which it is admitted that vaccines can cause encephalitis, was said to be the biggest selling medical textbook in the world. I asked a friend who works in a biochemistry lab about it, and she confirmed that. How could a vaccine company be a reputable source for the biggest-selling medical textbook?

    Good question. But nothing is independent and there never has been any unbiased oversight. They simply have been a law unto themselves. To much assuming of trust has gone on, and they obviously left them on their honor to do the right thing. Hows that been working? The closest thing they get to close observation is when they have to answer to the DOJ. But not to worry, they just pay the huge penalty and go on with their profitable business as usual. How many drugs has the FDA actually taken care of business as they should have when found harmfully defective? They did not even take Vioxx of the shelf; that took lawsuits and direct influence by the major medial trade organizations to do a new clinical trial, that failed. So there you have it.

    Like

  179. Steve Michaels
    August 24, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    lilady :
    Steve Michaels as his sole citation brings up the Remini Magistrate’s decision…which has been touted as a landmark case by all the notorious anti-vaccine websites.
    Here’s the facts Steve.
    The child was given the MMR vaccine. The mother while under oath swore that the child received the vaccine at 7 months of age, then while still under oath, stated the child received the vaccine at 15 months of age.
    The “expert witness” is an Italian doctor who has no special credentials, has written his own anti-vaccine book and has a special *cure* for autism. He should have been disqualified as an “expert witness”
    This is the best part of the case Steve, it’s a “landmark” case because Wakefield’s fraudulent research was the only piece of “evidence” used by the plaintiff.
    The case is under appeal right now and in the opinion of legal experts the verdict will be overturned. The plaintiff’s decision, based solely on the Wakefield diagnosis of autistic enterocolitis, has been roundly condemned by legal experts, doctors, scientists and judges throughout the world. You need to stop using anti-vaccine websites as your sources Steve. They skew information which is not in the interests of science.

    Can you provide your legal credentials with regard to Italian law and the dates you attended the trial. Wakefield’s research was not fraudulent. A British court has chastised the GMC over the entire affair including their superficial treatment of the evidence. While Wakefield was not part of the case directly and therefore not included, the other researchers have had their licenses reinstated and records cleared. And quite frankly, if the establishment ’roundly condemn’ something, it should raise alarm bells as to what they are afraid of. Again, the only conclusion from Wakefield was that more research was needed.

    Like

  180. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    @lilady, I have a strong suspicion that Karmen RN, BSN is our own cia parker in yet another disguise. Her focus on back arching, high pitched, inconsolable crying seems to be her cornerstone when making any kind of statement. In a way, she drops a little clue every time she uses it. What do you think?

    Like

  181. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    ella :
    Lowell,
    I think Gray is an undergraduate posting from his dorm room, I agree with you, but he may not be worth wasting ammunition on.

    Actually, I’m a programmer waiting for my work to compile. Regardless, it doesn’t reduce the validity of my points who I am, because at least I’m telling the truth.

    Wouldn’t nurses always have to hold a child down whom they were vaccinating, if for no other reason than to make sure the needle went into a safe spot?

    Did it ever occur to you to do the most basic of basic research on a subject before you post on it?

    Like

  182. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    G.,
    Not worth my time.

    Like

  183. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Lara,
    What an ingenious hypothesis! Or, could it be that we both mention the infant’s constant, inconsolable screaming, back arched, because those are among the most common symptoms of encephalitis? If we both said our child got a cold and had a stuffed up nose and a sore throat, would that make you say that was evidence it was not two children at all, but only one child? But Karmen was a nice, reasonable person, I hope she posts again, I don’t mind your conflating us.

    Like

  184. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    I saw the pictures of Valentino Bocca before and after the MMR, read the reports in Italian, it’s obviouis he’s just another of the millions damaged by the MMR, autistic, impaired in other ways, just another coal on the heap in hell. Why do you hate children so much, K.?

    Like

  185. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Please forgive me if this is rude, ella, but since you are cia parker, a known liar, nothing you say can be trusted. I apologize if that hurts your feelings, but I can’t believe your protests that you and this Karmen poster are not one and the same person.

    Like

  186. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    ella :
    G.,
    Not worth my time.

    Has that attitude ever helped?

    Like

  187. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Lowell,
    Thanks, more great information! I’ve thought of that, they’re denying for all they’re worth, because when the truth comes out a lot of them will be imprisoned for life (death penalty anyone?), careers ruined, pharmaceutical companies bankrupted, taxpayers wil have to compensate millions for the lifelong damage done. If Hannah Poling got 1.5 mill, and that’s actually a pittance, what’s going to happen when it’s undeniable the vaccine damage done to millions of others? I’m having a letter to the editor published this week about gluten sensitivity. The article talked about the huge numbers of people with gluten sensitivity now, and said that blood samples taken in the 1950s and still in storage prove that it’s a real rise, people in the ’50s didn’t have it. I said it’s clear that, like all the autistic children who are gluten sensitive or allergic, a huge number of people are being sensitized to gluten by ingredients in vaccines, an autoimmune reaction, screwing up their digestive health often for life.

    Like

  188. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Lara,
    I’m sure you realize that when I consider the source, nothing you could say would hurt my feelings.

    Like

  189. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Joe,
    I know, the numbers are mind-numbing! The principal of my daughter’s school said that three years ago there were only four autistic children in the school, but last year there were eight. Rock City, Mo., said last summer that the number of autistic children in the public schools had doubled in the previous five years.

    Like

  190. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    FYI, ella, the symptoms of encephalitis in an infant are first, bulging in the fontanels, then nausea and vomiting, body stiffness, then inconsolable crying (says nothing about high pitched), crying that worsens when picked up and finally poor feeding. There may be others things that would manifest also, but mostly that would be in an older child who can show an altered consciousness, etc. In an infant, any change in the fontanels would require immediate medical attention. Since we know you didn’t take your child to a doctor or emergency room for her inconsolable crying, we have no actual evidence she had encephalitis. In order for encephalitis to be diagnosed, more then one of these symptoms would need to present. Inconsolable crying is something that happens when an infant has gas. In my son, because I had hyper lactation syndrome and over active let down, until it was figured out, all the symptoms manifested in him, one of them was inconsolable crying, because he was in pain, because gas pain hurts. It’s is normally referred to as colic. However, once it was figured out what was going on, and I took measures to fix it, his symptoms went away, to a degree. There were still some things that were odd about him, (sleep difficulty, stimming on lights, sensitivity to certain of his blankets, etc) but that was due to his autism, nothing more. My point, most infants have bouts of inconsolable crying, that alone proves nothing other then the child feels he need to cry and cannot be consoled for whatever reason. All 6 of my children have extended periods of time when they would cry inconsolably, they call it now in hospitals, “The Period of PURPLE Crying” and is given to all new parents here to educate against shaken baby syndrome. There is even a web site for it: http://www.purplecrying.info/ I’d recommend educating yourself on it, as this happens to EVERY baby at least once. And not always at the same age. You may actually find, if your child was not shaken, that the inconsolable crying you claim she went through as just a normal part of being an infant and had nothing to do with your claim of encephalitis, especially since you never took her for emergency care so no real diagnosis was ever given for that.

    Like

  191. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Karmen,
    I just read your new post, I’m sorry you feel so guilty now about having drunk the Koolade, a lot of us do. (Although I had said I didn’t want my daughter to get the hep-B vax at birth which she reacted to when they gave it to her without asking permission.) All we can do now is pick up the pieces, keep going, and try to inform others so they can avoid our mistakes. I’m glad you’re posting here. I guess you’ve seen that they think you and I are the same person, because we both talk about children reacting to vaccines with constant, inconsolable screaming and arched backs? They like to say that that’s just what babies always do, and it doesn’t mean anything.

    Like

  192. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    @Ella,
    I would like to read the article on gluten. When and where can I find it? My son is on the GAPS diet and it is amazing!

    Like

  193. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    @Lara
    My now two year old daughter (not vaccinated) didn’t go through the Purple Crying period you are refrring too. Wonder if there is a connection between vaccinations and Purple Crying?

    Like

  194. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Gee, Lara, can you guys not handle the idea that there can be multiple causes for a given condition? Maybe back sleeping OR pertussis vaccine can cause SIDS? Maybe mercury OR the MMR can cause autism? (I’d better not overload you with with more possibilities.)

    Like

  195. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Here you go Cynthia Parker a.k.a.CIA Parker a.k.a ella a.k.a. Karmen RN…

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/d/vacc_admin.pdf

    Like

  196. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    Joe,

    Yeah, Lara dissed me with her normal purple crying in newborns hypothesis several months ago. Could that be that her last (autistic) child reacted to one of the vaccines he got before six months with purple crying that was really a vaccine reaction, but she thought it was normal? As Karmen knows, it’s devastating to try to come to terms with that possibility, and I guess some people never do.

    I have a nice old Catholic neighbor who had five children. When I told her about my baby’s crying all night every night for four nights (encephalitis), she just said quietly, None of my babies did that. I thought, and none of your babies got the hep-B vaccine at birth, either.

    Like

  197. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Joe,
    My nice neighbor just referred to read it and gave it to me, I don’t get any newspaper. It was in the Columbia Daily Tribune (Columbia, Mo.), I don’t remember what day. It shouldn’t be hard to google, they put all their articles online and you can read several a month for free.

    Like

  198. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    Bit of advice, ella. If there are multiple explanations for the same event, and no evidence ruling any of them out, then the most likely explanation will be the one accepted. This is Occam’s razor.

    Like

  199. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Joe,
    What does your son drink? I’ve had a hard time finding a satisfactory milk replacement. I gave my daughter soy milk for the first two months (protein and calcium levels similar to milk), but then thought maybe soy should be taken off too, they say now that it’s opioid too, so we went to rice milk with calcium but almost no protein, I got pea protein powder and blend it into the rice milk to increase the protein levels, but it has an unpleasant texture even after blending. Then I read that rice has some arsenic in it naturally, and I know it’s not much, but if she has a tendency to store heavy metals rather than excrete them, it might be too much for her. But soy has a lot of estrogen and other problems. Right now we’re alternating boxes of soy milk and rice milk. She eats one expensive container of So Good coconut yogurt an evening for the probiotics, an hour after she takes the digestive enzyme with supper. We’re vegetarian, and thanks to the cookbook The Welcoming Kitchen, we eat gluten free, casein free, meat free, with lots of tasty easy recipes. How does the GAPS diet differ from the GFCF diet, and is it feasible for vegetarians?

    Like

  200. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Thanks Ella!

    Like

  201. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Ella, GAPS stands for Gut And Psychology Syndrom….my wife has become an expert in all of this…I’ll send her your questions and get some answers from the expert..LOL

    Like

  202. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    So ella relies on her own “intuition” and the advice of an “old Catholic neighbor who had five children”, about hepatitis B post vaccination “encephalitis”.

    Hmmm, I wonder what impressed ella about her neighbor…she was “old”…she was Catholic…she had five children. All the qualifications you would look for when you want advice about vaccines or meningoencephalitis.

    Here is what Dr. Paul Offit, America’s foremost expert on vaccines and the Medical Director of the Infectious Department of Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, has to say about the hepatitis B vaccine and side effects. No mention of encephalitis has ever been reported, anywhere.

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/a-look-at-each-vaccine/hepatitis-b-vaccine.html

    Does the hepatitis B vaccine have side effects?

    Some children will develop pain or soreness in the local area of the shot, and low-grade fever.

    There is one extremely rare, but serious, side effect: 1 out of every 600,000 doses of the hepatitis B vaccine will cause a severe allergic reaction, called anaphylaxis, with symptoms including swelling of the mouth, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure or shock. Anaphylaxis usually occurs within 15 minutes of receiving the vaccine. Although anaphylaxis can be treated, it is quite frightening. People should remain at the doctor’s office for about 15 minutes after getting the vaccine.

    Although the hepatitis B vaccine is made in yeast cells, no one has ever been shown to be allergic to the yeast proteins contained in the hepatitis B vaccine (see Yeast Allergies).

    Like

  203. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Ah, yes, Dr. Profit, the one who sustains that a person could easily get 100,000 vaccines at once, and be none the worse for it (apart from dead)! The guy who made millions off the new rotavirus vaccine. The guy who said about the DTP vaccine:”Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the old pertussis vaccine was that it was incorrectly linked to other diseases. Newspaper articles and television programs wrongly accused pertussis vaccine of causing unexplained coma, SIDS, epilepsy, and permanent brain damage. And some television programs claimed that there were ‘bad lot’ of the DTP vaccine.” (Vaccines: What You Should Know 34) On p. 40 he says: “No child has died from the ‘old’ pertussis vaccine.”

    Barbara Loe Fisher’s book A Shot in the Dark, about the many instances of permanent damage and death caused by the DPT, with hundreds of bolstering scientific studies cited and dozens of case histories included, got the shot taken off the market. Heaven means the impossibility of crows. Barbara forced the existence of crows into the world’s notice, although Profit would like them to be pushed back into the shadows again. On p. 15, under an epigraph from Dylan Thomas’ “Forgive us Your Death,” the authors tell the story of two-month old Richie, who got his DPT shot on Jan. 12, 1983. HIs mother Janet’s sister-in-law had just called to tell her to watch a Phil Donahue show on vaccine reactions, but she didn’t have time to watch it. Richie’s hip swelled after the shot, he alternated between screaming and lethargy, the morning after the shot he had explosive diarrhea, but his mother didn’t call the doctor, because his older brother had reacted to the DPT in the same way, and she assumed it was normal. Purple screaming, if you will. Unlike his brother, Richie didn’t have a fever, and felt cool. He started vomiting at four. At 10:45 he took two sucks on his bottle, stopped sucking, and started sighing, his eyes wide open. They called the doctor, who wasn’t worried at all. He agreed it was probably a DPT reaction. Not to worry. The child’s eyes stopped responding to light. The doctor still on the line said they could take him to the hospital if they wanted to, but said he wouldn’t meet them there, someone else could handle it. The doctor didn’t tell them to take an ambulance, so they got ready to take him in the car. When Janet picked him up, still staring at the ceiling and sighing, he stopped breathing. They did CPR, called an ambulance, the mother screaming that her baby had died. He died 33 hours after getting the first DPT shot, pronounced DOA. When Janet talked to the doctor, she demanded to know why he hadn’t told her the vaccine could do that to him. He said, Oh, the vaccine couldn’t have done that, it çouldn’t cause diarrhea. She said Then why did it cause diarrhea in both my sons? (Shades of Wakefield’s naysayers saying he had made up the syndrome of autistic enterocolitis.) The autopsy eventually showed hyperplasia of the thymus gland (regulator of immune response), congestion and edema in lungs and brain. The coroner gave her the report on the boy’s death that had SIDS on the front. She said it wasn’t SIDS, but a vaccine reaction. The coroner finally put down “possible DPT reaction.” Janet read to him from the Physician’s Desk Reference the section about reactions to the pertussis vaccine, but he said he couldn’t put down that the death was due to a vaccine reaction because ‘the state’s standing on immunizations would be in an uproar.’ ”

    So, do crows exist or not? This boy is one of dozens described in the book, one of thousands of subjects included in the hundreds of scientific studies which proved the many dangers of the vaccine.

    Like

  204. Gray Falcon
    August 24, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Ah, yes, Dr. Profit, the one who sustains that a person could easily get 100,000 vaccines at once, and be none the worse for it (apart from dead)!

    He never said that, he stated that a human typically takes in 100,000 times the load of a vaccine every day without ill effect, so the “overloaded immune system” argument is false. Tell me, does it help your case to start off with a lie?

    Like

  205. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Ella,
    I got the info from my wife…do you have contact info outside of this site that I can send some information too?

    Like

  206. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Lara,

    I thought I had forestalled any vaccine reaction by saying I didn’t want her to get the shot. They didn’t give me any sheet with a list of symptoms of vaccine reaction (as they were required to do by law, but hey! I would have thought informed consent would have meant they would have asked my permission before giving her a shot to prevent a sexually-transmitted disease, they gave me nothing.

    I only got involved in this vaccine issue in the aftermath of her vaccine reaction. I didn’t know why she was screaming all night, when she was dry, had nursed shortly before the screaming started Tuesday evening, May 9, 2000. I rocked her, sang to her, did not leave her alone to cry it out. It didn’t even go through my mind at that time that it might be a vaccine reaction. She had been born May 5, Reactions to the hep-B usually start between three and five days after the vaccine is given (Alison McNeil said that in a comment to my guest post on AoA last year, she had heard it in a lecture by Dr. Wakefield.). My baby was born at 7:30 a.m. Friday, May 5, was given the shot at 11:50 p.m. May 5. So it was almost four days after the vaccine was given that the screaming started. If you would be inclined just to chalk it up to purple screaming, why do you assume that I should have recognized a vaccine reaction? Obviously hindsight is 20 20. At the time, I didn’t know. I had read lots of books on colic, breast feeding, playing, bathing, care of the umbilical stump, but a vaccine reaction to a vaccine I had said I didn’t want her to get wasn’t on my radar. My mother told the pediatrician about the screaming, she was worried. He asked if it were for more than three hours straight. She said it was much much more than that. He didn’t say anything else, other than that one of his two daughters had had colic, and he didn’t think colic was a physical problem at all. She screamed about 16 hours a day for those four days, falling into an exhausted sleep at dawn for two or three hours, then waking to scream on and on and on. My mother, who now has Alzheimer’s, came in to hold the baby for a few hours on two of those nights. I’ll always be grateful to her for that. One night I just couldn’t stay sitting up in the rocking chair any longer, I was so exhausted from holding my baby for so many hours without a break, that I lay down on my bed with her lying face down on my chest, just for a few minutes, I thought. And then I woke up in a panic several hours later, thinking, Oh, no, she might have died in the tummy down position! But she was peacefully asleep at that moment, several days into the crying. She lost 1 pound two ounces between Tuesday and Thursday. I wasn’t alarmed, I had read newborns usually lose up to 10% of their birth weight in the first week, and thought it was that. Now I think it was because the pain kept her from feeding. The pediatrician was alarmed about the weight loss, and thought it was a problem with my nursing her, and insisted I at least get a breast pump, which I only used once. My mother urged me to give up and bottle feed her, the way she had, but I was determined to breast feed her, even though it was excruciatingly painful for the first seven weeks. I was determined to be the best, most loving, conscientious mother that had ever lived. Pretty foolish, in retrospect. The screaming stopped Saturday afternoon, she nursed avidly again, the way she had before Tuesday evening, she gained back the weight quickly, and I heaved a sigh of relief, thinking it was over, not dreaming yet that our problems had just begun.

    Vaccine reaction wasn’t on anybody’s radar at that time, but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. I am close to tears now, remembering it, but I know that the smell of blood will bring the worst of you in to tear me to pieces. But he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

    Like

  207. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Joe,
    It won’t take my email address to send you. Let me try it this way. It’s ciaparker2 and the server is gmail.

    Like

  208. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Ella,
    Got it!

    Like

  209. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Hi Gray Falcon: I’ve been missing you on that other science blog. Why don’t you come back to post…there are some lively discussions taking place there.

    Like

  210. August 24, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    @ella – you & your ilk are hypocrites. Coming here & spewing the same old tired debunked anti-vaccine myths and then complain when your information is constantly refuted or that you and others refuse to answer questions or provide evidence to back up statements of “personal” experiences.

    Also, this isn’t a democracy – this is Christine Vara’s blog & she has been extremely open about letting all types of opinions be posted here (including the most derogatory comments by our now resident deny-everything denier).

    Interestingly enough, you never see this type of thing on anti-vaccine websites or blogs. They all seem to have a draconian moderation policy to prevent any and all opposing views from being seen. I wonder why that is – we respond to your arguments with facts and science, whereas places to AoA seem to be free to post whatever they like & don’t allow anyone to comment the other way.

    What are they so scared of? Seriously, why don’t you head back there – I’m sure your pithy comments have been missed.

    Like

  211. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Lawrence…ella has a number of sockies. She has already admitted to being Cynthia Parker and CIA Parker. She has just posted on another thread here that she was a *guest blogger* on AoA, heh, heh.

    Like

  212. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    cia, we’ve all heard this story multiple times, it was untrue the first time you said it, saying it again and again does not make it any more true. If your daughter was experiencing the symptoms of encephalitis, why didn’t you take her to the emergency room? That is what hospitals advised new parents to do when they are concerned for their new baby’s health. You didn’t seek any kind of medical intervention, you assumed the crying was encephalitis, no medical practitioner confirmed that because you didn’t give them a chance. You claim your daughter has autism, yet that is something else that you have assumed without having her evaluated by professionals.

    And by the way, Hep B is not a sexually transmitted disease, it is carried in bodily fluids. If someone with hep b sneezed on your child, guess what, she is exposed. We have also told you, multiple times, new mothers may test negative to hep b when they give birth, but are found to test positive at a later date. If their new born had not been vaccinated at birth, their baby would have been exposed to the mother’s hep b in utero and during birth and also if the mother breastfed. Again, not sexually transmitted. Your ideas of certain things are antiquated and you are clearly denying all the new information and evidence that has been discovered in the past 20 years. Even when we point out to you where you are in error, you ignore it. Sorry toots but that is denial, anyway you slice it. You want to badly to believe your daughter is damaged. That is much more damaging to her and her future prospects in life then anything any vaccine could have possibly done.

    Like

  213. Steve Michaels
    August 24, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Lara Lohne :

    There is a reason pediatricians advised parents to give acetaminophen or ibuprofen to a child after a vaccine is given, to ease any pain and keep temperature down when a fever is a known side effect. …Given that a wild pathogen can cause serious damage, including but not limited to, high fever, (which typically in many diseases is the first symptom of infection) in the case of Hannah Poling, yes, the vaccine was safer then her getting an infection. You have also overlooked the large part of medicine which is not just treating/curing illness, disease and injury but also preventing it. Please don’t mince words, seat belts in a car are considered preventative, door locks, helmets when riding a motorcycle, all of these are also preventative.
    You have not provided any data showing how you perceive me as unbalanced, and since you are not a professional, you’ll forgive me if I believe you are merely attempting to make me look bad *strawman* because my arguments, my experiences and the knowledge that I share is valid and you can’t actually argue with what I’ve been saying so you choose to attack me instead. My statements are backed up by science, by what I have experienced and observed in my own life and by what history and epidemiology has shown us. I don’t have to prove what I say, other people already have.
    The thimerosal issue was brought up first by parents of children with autism attempting to get compensation from the US government by claiming that the thimerosal in vaccines caused the autism. They were a separate but unified group of those participating in the Autism Omnibus hearings. There were three arguments that they took to the hearing, thimerosal causes autism, the MMR causes autism and the all too familiar too many too soon argument. Even with three points, all essentially contradicting the other, they still were unable to prove any of those three arguments were in any way contributing factors to their children developing autism. Science has found over years of study, world wide, that there is no correlation between vaccines and autism, therefore there is no further need to study it.
    I am familiar with the court ruling in Italy, however, as it has been stated here multiple times, a court of law cannot make a ruling on a scientific principal, they lack the jurisdiction (that’s a joke) since they deal with the laws made by man and science deals with the laws of nature which were hear long before we were. I will also not accept a court hearing that would rule wearing the color pink will keep me from getting diabetes. Yes, it is ridiculous, but so is a court trying to create science, since they are lawyers, not scientists.
    As someone who claims to support the anti-vaccine stance, you don’t seem to really know much about your own history. Perhaps you should read up on that and then come back when you know more about what they claim. I can guarantee you that we all know what they claim and their claims have been disproved, multiple times. I asked you a couple of questions, (nice dodge by the way). I’d love to hear your answers since I need to know exactly how much experience you have with children in general and autistic children specifically to know whether or not it’s even worth my time attempting to communicate with you on equal ground. My guess, since you side stepped it so deftly, is the answer to both questions is none. If that is the case, you cannot speak about things you do not know, therefore it’s best you refrain before you embarrass yourself further.

    Let’s get to work then…. I have cut out a bit of minutiae to shrink the comment a bit.

    You acknowledge the use of analgesics to minimize adverse reactions. Well considering that vaccination now starts at birth and continues unabated until at least age 2 I find it interesting that you admit and apparently condone a medical procedure (vaccination) which facilitates the use of acetaminophen and ibuprofen in children against the recommendation for usage. The recommended MINIMUM age for acetaminophen is 2 and ibuprofen is 6 months. The very fact that it is necessary to use these against recommended and clinically tested thresholds should, in and of itself, be a BIG warning sign about vaccines.

    I’ve got to quote you again here to make it clear how convoluted your logic is (which is the basis of my ‘unbalanced’ comment):
    “Given that a wild pathogen can cause serious damage, including but not limited to, high fever, (which typically in many diseases is the first symptom of infection) in the case of Hannah Poling, yes, the vaccine was safer then her getting an infection.”

    You are arguing that the risk of this unnamed, unknown and non-contracted pathogen which may or may be contracted and may or may not cause a high fever was a higher risk than the vaccine which ACTUALLY DID cause the high fever, which is a very common adverse reaction, and that therefore the vaccine was the safer option. If you cannot see that you are arguing that a known trigger of high fever is safer than risking what may or may not happen is beyond reason.

    As far as your seat belt and helmet analogy goes, you are completely wrong. Those are called ‘precautionary’ measures, which is far different from ‘preventative’. If you want to avoid injury in the event of an accident, seat belts and helmets are used as a precaution as they are passive and risk free when no accident occurs. If you want to avoid accidents, you don’t drive or ride motorcycles. That is preventative.

    “…science deals with the laws of nature which were hear (sic) long before we were.”

    I’m glad you said that because laws of nature are what made our immune systems what they are. Vaccines which bypass the natural entry points of the body thus short circuiting the entire immune system’s system are anything but natural. They are an attempt by science to play God and either do better than the laws of nature have done or try to break the laws of nature already in existence. The purpose of a court is not only to rule on laws of man. It is also to assign fault and liability when a human being is harmed.

    As far as your comments about the history of the anti-vaccine movement, please don’t pigeon hole me. I am not part of a movement, I am not part of any organization and I do not consult with, meet up with or in any way socialize with people who are activists in any way, shape or form. I am on here because I am following my conscience. The fact that so many theories about how the harm can come highlights the fact that the entire issue is much more complex than sound bites and blog entries. Even the ‘professional’ researchers have admitted that much of vaccinology and immune response from a systemic viewpoint are poorly understood. What I can assure you of is that there are NO true placebo studies of any sort comparing long term health and chronic illness incidences between vaccinated and unvaccinated subjects.

    And to finish off, I have two beautiful non autistic boys who are not vaccinated (legally exempted) who are vastly advanced compared to their peers in virtually all levels of mental and physical capabilities. They have no allergies, no asthma, no ear infections and have had very few colds. I also have several friends with children of varying degrees of ASD and have associated with them through various activities for the past 4 years.

    Like

  214. August 24, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    @lilady – Oh, I know about “ella” and all of the other names she goes under and her posts / comments over at AoA as well.

    And Steve – I have two beautiful non-autistic boys who are fully vaccinated (for their age) who are vastly advanced compared to their peers in virtually all levels of mental and physical capabilities. They have no allergies, no asthma, no ear infections and have had very few if any colds.

    So, my two boys cancel out yours, so let’s get back to the Science now, okay?

    And, I would love for you to show exactly how you would design your “long-term placebo controlled” study of vaccinated / unvaccinated populations and not violate the post-WWII medical ethics protocols.

    Like

  215. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    @Law
    I will volunteer my 2 year old (not vaccinated) daughter for a study.

    Like

  216. August 24, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    @Joe – self-selection is a bias. You can’t include her, because the participants needs to be randomly selected & either given the vaccine or a placebo.

    You wouldn’t know if your child was vaccinated or given the placebo – only the doctors in charge of the study would have that information.

    See the “Tuskegee Study” to see why this is unethical.

    Like

  217. Th1Th2
    August 24, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    I have two beautiful non-autistic boys who are fully vaccinated (for their age) who are vastly advanced compared to their peers in virtually all levels of mental and physical capabilities.

    So you’re saying your boys have Asperger’s? They are, indeed, beautiful.

    Like

  218. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @Law
    Are you Todd on your antiantivax site?

    Like

  219. Lawrence
    August 24, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    @joe – no. Todd is Todd on his antiantivax site.

    Like

  220. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    @Law
    Was does your name link up to it? Do you follow it?

    Like

  221. Th1Th2
    August 24, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    And by the way, Hep B is not a sexually transmitted disease, it is carried in bodily fluids. If someone with hep b sneezed on your child, guess what, she is exposed.

    Such ignorance. Just amazing to see how the provax are so convoluted.

    Like

  222. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    why not was…

    Like

  223. Lawrence
    August 24, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    @joe – because it contains some of the best information refuting, with actual science, common myths spread by antivax trolls.

    If you were open-minded, you would carefully weigh the information there versus the junk science being tossed around by those desperate to link vaccine to autism, by spreading lies and false information

    Like

  224. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    @Law
    I am already one of those that knows a vaccine triggered my son’s Autism…..I don’t need to read anything as I have my own experience. I know I am not lying to myself.

    Like

  225. Lawrence
    August 24, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    @joe – you believe a vaccine caused your son’s autistic diagnosis. I know, based on all of the available scientific evidence, that it did not.

    Believe what you will, but your opinion is unsupported by facts.

    Like

  226. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    @Law
    I don’t need facts….I have my experience and know it to be true. Even though there is a mountain of evidence to support me, I don’t need them as I have my knowledge from my own experience. You have admitted that Vaccines injure people….so why not an Autism injury? Doesn’t make any sense to me Law?

    Like

  227. Lawrence
    August 24, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    @joe – because it has been studied, over and over again. And when one popular anti-vaccine myth is busted, like Thimersol, the anti-vaccination crowd shifts the goalposts and blames something else.

    Their only common denominator is vaccines. Always vaccines. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, it is the only thing they will focus on.

    At the end of the day, if a definitive cause or causes is found, and it isn’t vaccines, do you think any anti-vaccine groupie will apologie to Dr. Offit?

    Like

  228. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    This vax/unvax study could be self-selected, the only ones who would need to be blinded would be the doctors who examined the children. How could it be otherwise? The parents decide whether or not to vax their children, no one would agree to the children being randomly vaxed or not.

    Like

  229. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    @Law
    So you are telling me that vaccines can cause all sorts of injuries to the brain and body, etc.., but doesn’t cause injury to the brain in a way that causes Autism? And you know this for sure?

    Like

  230. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Ella….great proposal!

    Like

  231. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    I never denied having my article published at AoA. Why would I? I’m proud of it, and my long comment being on the front page of The Refusers last winter. But I don’t post much at AoA, I post a lot on Anne Dachel’s vaccine articles of the day, and on Michael Belkin’s articles of the day. Why shouldn’t I? I would have continued to use my name to post here if I hadn’t been blocked. I see many of you posting here and there, and why shouldn’t you? I don’t understand why these are supposed to be insults directed at me.

    Like

  232. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Not interested in your opinion, LL. Thanks, Joe! Hold the fort for me, Joe and Steve!

    Like

  233. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Steve, I have three beautiful, neurotypical boys, two of which are adults now, who were vaccinated. My second son developed an ear infection (turned out it was e coli) from his chicken pox rash when he was 4, but other then that all three of my neurotypical boys are healthy and developed well above average. I also have two beautiful neurotypical girls, one who is an adult now, also both vaccinated, my oldest (girl) had a few bouts with strep throat when she was in grade school, but after the age of 9 it was no longer an issue. I also have one beautiful little boy who is autistic. Of my 5 children, only my youngest was not vaccinated on schedule. He is fully vaccinated now, but wasn’t vaccinated prior to the obvious signs of autism manifesting.

    My siblings and I, however, were not vaccinated, and aside from chicken pox, mumps, pertussis, and meningitis (in one of my younger sisters’ case) we grew up with severe colds, ear infections and allergies. Thankfully, most of that went away for us by the age of 10 or 12.

    In Hannah Poling’s case, the vaccine didn’t cause her mitochondrial disorder, that was pre-existing. The high fever she got after the vaccine (which is a common known side effect of vaccines) activated the disorder and that caused injury. It alerted them to a condition that was not known before. When the inevitable happened and she got an infection (and let’s face it, kids get infections all the time) the injury she suffered could have been much, much worse. By alerting them to the pre-existing condition, they are able to be more vigilant with regarding to what she is exposed to. In that regard, the vaccine she received could very well have saved her life in an entirely unseen manner.

    @Joe, Anecdotes mean nothing because there are such stories with and without vaccines. Your personal experience means squat when compared with the mountains of data that show us there is no evidence of any causal relationship between vaccines and autism, or any of the other things you folks claim there is. The injuries associated with vaccination are well known and well documented. Guess what? Autism is not one of them.

    Like

  234. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    @Lara
    I didn’t come here to prove anything…just tell my story. And I guess I’ll ask you the same question that you didn’t answer before. Vaccines can cause all sorts of injuries to the brain and body, etc.., but doesn’t cause injury to the brain in a way that causes Autism? And you know this for sure? Would you bet your house on it?

    Like

  235. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    You were blocked as cia for abuse and lying and you still didn’t get the hint so you came back as another alter ego? Well, it’s only a matter of time before you say something else to get this pseudonym blocked as well. Maybe then you’ll take a hint and leave, because we are all tired of your fabricated sob story. You may not be interested in my opinion, but I am still perfectly free to say it, just as you are perfectly free to lie. If you don’t wish for people to accuse you of lying, then perhaps you should stop lying. How many lies have you been caught in already? Your words cannot be trusted, and you have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

    Like

  236. Lawrence
    August 24, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    @ella, cia Parker, etc – because double blind placebo studies don’t work that way. You don’t get to choose which group your kids get to be in. It has to be randomized….

    Like

  237. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @Joe, if I had a house, yes, I would. Research has shown that the areas of the brain that are effected grow larger then normal during the second trimester of pregnancy. That isn’t vaccine injury, that is genetics.

    Like

  238. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    @lara
    I was asking about vaccine injuries….you agree they can injure but they can’t injure the brain?

    Like

  239. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    @lara
    And BTW….your theory on the brain growing out of control during pregnancy doesn’t exactly fit for all of the regressive Autism I spoke of earlier. If that were the case, these kids would have Autism from birth.

    Like

  240. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    I’m just waiting for ella to admit that she posted under yet another ‘nym…Karmen RN.

    Perhaps ella, Cynthia, CIA and Karmen RN could tell us why she resorts to using multiple sockies?

    Joe stated, “I don’t need facts….I have my experience and know it to be true.” That’s a keeper.

    Like

  241. August 24, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    @Joe – severe reactions, as you describe, have been seen in about 1 in 10 million – which is nearly impossible to connect to the vaccines themselves, because of the statistical background noise…..as to the fetal development that Lara mentioned – it has been shown that kids can show signs of autism as young as a month old – very slight, but they are there.

    Like

  242. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @Joe, yes it does, if you read the research. The brain growth that begins during pregnancy, continues after birth until around the age of two where different synapses begin to form and other areas of the brain begin to grow abnormally fast while the previously over grown brain regions stop growing and actually begin to diminish. These children do have autism from birth, signs are present, if you know what to look for, and because of this research they are better able to recognize those at risk of developing autism at a younger age and can begin intervention earlier. And as research has also shown us, the earlier intervention can begin, the better chance the child has of being reasonably normal functioning. If you would like to learn about this particular research, Google Dr. Eric Courchesne. He was keynote speaker at IMFAR in 2011. He can obviously explain his own research much better then I can.

    Like

  243. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    Joe, remember, heaven means the impossibility of crows. Our little crows mean nothing to them, are invisible, do not compute. I guess Kafka may have been talking about the growing power of the Nazis who wished to deny the existence of Jews before they made it a reality, but now the megalithic power is that of Big Pharma trying to convince people of the non-existence of its collateral damage.

    Like

  244. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    We know what we know, and you cannot negate our reality.

    Like

  245. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    And who says that, Lawrence? Those who wish to continue to block a genuine study from ever being done, because they can see the handwriting on the wall? You people don’t think parents know anything at all about the health of their children, only doctors are allowed to have a valid opinion on the children’s state of health, so who needs the parents to be blinded? The parents volunteer their child, hand over their vaccine records or vouch for their lack of vaccination, to be kept secret from the doctors, and then the doctors examine them over the years. If they have asthma, it’s recorded, if they have autism, it’s recorded, allergies, diabetes, etc. The doctors don’t know their vaccination status, but they presumably know how to diagnose some things, and that would be the point. After ten or twenty years, study the results. Congress has twice mandated that a vax/unvax study be done, but it hasn’t. Profit says that it would deny the unvaxed children of “valuable disease protection,” but since a lot of us wouldn’t vax for anything in the world, these children are going to waste as undamaged, unvaxed children who could bring the truth to light. Isn’t that what Science wants to do?

    Like

  246. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    cia, you may wish to look up the definition of psychosis.

    Like

  247. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    cia, you are also forgetting the hundreds of unvaccinated children who do have these things. Stop trying to speak for every parent of a child with autism, vaccinated or otherwise, you know very little when it comes to the science behind many of the things you blame on vaccines.

    Like

  248. August 24, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    @ella – I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Tuskegee Study – that’s why we don’t do those kinds of studies anymore….what you are asking for is unethical, exactly as you would excuse the Pharma companies of being.

    Like

  249. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    @lil
    You are right; there is nothing that can take the place of your own experience. Aren’t you always talking about your experience as a nurse?

    @Law
    And yet, still haven’t answered my question.

    @Lara
    You haven’t answered my direct question for the 2nd time. Also, you must have missed the part about my son having the vocabulary of a 5 year old at age two and then regressing after vaccination to a point of no speech and diminished physical characteristics. He was not born with Autism and as a matter of fact he was well advanced of his cousins (the same age) up until that point.

    Like

  250. August 24, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    my bad, accuse of doing….

    Like

  251. August 24, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    @Joe – so which vaccine do you accuse, in your particular case?

    And again, if it is so iron-clad, did you file a case with the Vaccine Court? If not, why?

    Come on, answer the simple question……

    Like

  252. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    @law
    Still not answering my question? It’s because you can’t answer it without lying to yourself.

    Like

  253. Karmen
    August 24, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Well, guess I missed a lot going on here today and honestly, I do not have time to read all these comments. I read a few though. I am not Ella. I am a nurse and yes, when I was fear mongered into giving my own son the MMR, I had to help hold him as he was throwing a fit to get up. I gave it and helped hold him down. When I was in school, we were never told about a controversy with vaccines. I had never heard about it. I was NEVER told the ingredients in vaccines nor did I ever look. Try this. Go to your local health departments and ask any employee there but especially the nurses and physicians about vaccines. They will all tell you the very same row about safety, efficacy and necessity. Then ask them to tell you what is in them. Have the package inserts handy because they will not know. Show them the insert. Ask them to explain each ingredient to you and what they know about it. Ask them if they have ever gleaned over the VAERS data. Ask them to tell you about what they have read. Ask them about the pig viral contaminants in the rotovirus vaccine. Ask them what happened with that issue. Ask them about thimersol studies that verify the very same brain injury in animals as we parents in reporting. Take the studies with you. Try this at every business of medicine that sells vaccines. Keep documentation on what you find. You will be sorely disappointed . Ask them about using fetal tissue in vaccines. Ask them which vaccines use fetal tissue. Ask them anything. Most everyone will not know but maybe they will be so embarrassed that they will search for the answers and when they do, you will have educated one more. Be prepared to be disrespected, poorly treated, and pushed away. Arm yourself with factual data but again, prepare yourself for foul treatment. This is their reputations, bread and butter and above all, it is a wonderful notion to think an injection prevents disease without repercussion. Once you have witnessed vaccine injury you KNOW how real it is. Then you find tens of thousands of other witnesses to the very same injury. No one can convince you it did not happen. You saw it. You live it. Even if there was no science to back me, I witnessed it. But thankfully, there is science to support these tragedies. One child harmed is one too many. There is no greater good served when children are sacrificed. Karmen RN BSN

    Like

  254. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    Lawrence: Joe is not anti-vaccine, heh, heh.

    Joe: So what vaccines, if any, with your excellent background in immunology, would you *recommend*?

    Why do you duck all the questions about your child and the filing of a claim, for, what you report, as a vaccine injury?

    Hey ella, when are you going to own up to posting here as Karmen, RN?

    Like

  255. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    @Lil
    No vaccines are safe – period.

    Like

  256. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Ella,
    I don’t think Lilady is really nurse….citation needed. heh heh

    Like

  257. lilady
    August 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    @ Karmen RN:

    I really doubt that you worked as a county nurse. Your claim that you held your baby down AND administered the MMR vaccine to him, is not the way that is recommended to immunize any child. Didn’t your supervisor oversee your immunization “technique”?

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/d/vacc_admin.pdf

    You also claim you never studied vaccines…which is a blatant lie if as you claim you are a college graduate and a registered nurse. How ever did you pass your nursing boards without studying immunology and vaccines that protect children against serious, sometimes deadly vaccines.

    Now about your “work experience” where you claim you knew nothing about VAERS…when the VAERS information is at the bottom of each VIS (Vaccine Information Statement) that you are required to give each patient/parent BEFORE you administer the vaccine. The VIS compliance is a federal law. No matter which county and no matter which state you practiced in, doctors and nurses are required to be compliant with their State’s health and education laws that all require that doctors and nurses give each patient/parent the VIS…in compliance with Federal and State laws.

    You never attended vaccine teleconferences…that were broadcast yearly…by the CDC, you never had occasion to refer to the CDC Pink Book or the AAP Red Book…is that what you claim Karmen?

    I worked in my health department’s division of communicable disease control, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I know only too well how deadly these diseases can be. I also worked as a clinic nurse and gave thousands of vaccines to kids and adults during clinic hours. I set up special clinics and immunized kids and adults whenever their was an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease and coordinated the immunization program in my large (1.2 million residents) county. You would have been fired for your immunization technique of holding down/administering any vaccine.

    Now that you claim your child is “vaccine injured” and you *know* about the VAERS, have you made a claim?

    lilady, BSc-Nursing, R.N.

    Like

  258. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    @lil
    I don’t believe you are/were a nurse …..your experience is meaningless. Prove your experience please.

    Like

  259. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    It is flattering that you should think I could write posts as eloquent as those Karmen has posted, and ones as steadfast in her commitment to the truth as the one she posted this evening. But I’m afraid that what we have in common is knowledge of the truth about vaccines, seared into our souls by the experience of our own children. I am not a nurse, and have never given a vaccine. I used to give sub-cutaneous fluid transfusions to my cat for three years when he was in kidney failure, but that’s as close as I have come. I feel like Zorro, you see me everywhere. There have been several truthtellers in the past few months that you mistakenly thought were I. I guess you wouldn’t believe it if I said I was really Dr. Wakefield himself?

    Like

  260. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    @Joe, what direct question? I must have missed it since it was mixed in with so much pseudoscience and misinformation. I did not miss the part where you say your son had the vocabulary of a 5 years old and regressed at the age of two. My son, at the age of 9 months ad the vocabulary of a two year old. Now he has the vocabulary of a 2 year old and he’s nearly five and a half. I’m not sure of your point. I am sure your son had signs of autism at birth, but since most parents don’t know what autism looks like until it happens to them, you probably just weren’t aware of it. As I was not aware the challenges my son had, from birth, were autism until after I looked at it in retrospect and recognized it for what it was. I believe it was having 5 neurotypical children before him that even gave me the ability to note that he was much more challenging then any of my other children were as infants and toddlers.

    My son sat up early, crawled early, walked early, began speaking early, was affectionate and still is, smiled, laughed, responded to his name, etc. But he would stim on lights, had sleep difficulties, seemed to respond with pain when he was swaddled in certain blankets, all from birth. His regression started at 14 months of age, toe walking was the first clue. That is nearly universal in children with autism. Loss of the ability to make and keep eye contact, intense focus on parts of objects, spinning, lining things up and slowly he lost his language and began engaging in pointless routine behaviors that were ritualistic in manner. My son didn’t have any vaccines until after he began Early Intervention just after two and a half years of age. He didn’t begin speaking again until he was 3 and a half, but he can tell me he loves me, even though he has difficulty with some consonant sounds and issues with echolalia.

    If you have video of your son from birth until two, I am certain if observed by an expert, aspects of autism could be found, from birth. Again, please read Dr. Eric Courchesne’s research regarding brain development, which is universal in all people with autism. It does not come from a vaccine. No vaccine, or any chemical known to man has the ability to reconstruct the brain to be autistic, that takes months of abnormal development beginning before birth. That is hardwired into the DNA of the individual. That is why I also don’t believe a cure can be found.

    Like

  261. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    @lara
    I was asking about vaccine injuries….you agree they can injure but they can’t injure the brain? That is my question.
    My son was actually tested and had the vocabulary of a 5 year old and as I mentioned was ahead of his cousins (the same age) in most aspects of development. There were no signs what so ever of Autism until he regressed after the vaccine. And btw….there is no universal anything for Autism….many paths to the same place, Not even the same place….a spectrum of places. You really need to think outside of your very small box you have been thinking in.

    Like

  262. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Joe,
    I’ve read that the main reason they give so many shots so early is so that it cannot be perceived that they caused a child to regress. If you give them before he’s walking and talking, it makes it easy to say he was born that way. I’m sure they’re working feverishly even as we speak to roll out the MMR designed to be given with the 2, 4, and 6 month rounds of vaccines, to shake off all the parents who now say, “But I have videos of him walking, talking, playing, kissing his brother, cuddling his puppy, and wham! gets the MMR and stops doing all those things and now does nothing but line up cars and spin in circles.” Yeah, they can get people to roll out verbiage that is supposed to sound convincing, but how convincing can it be? We know what our children were and what they lost to vaccines. Once they give them all a hundred vaxes before they’re two, none of them will ever walk or talk, and this whole debate will become completely meaningless.

    Like

  263. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Joe,
    You’ve got to read Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s book Make an Informed Vaccine Decision. He has a practice in Chicago with tens of thousands of patients since 1971, many of them Amish, and among his large unvaccinated patient base, he has had not one patient with autism, when statistically he should have had a lot. His book is chockablock with scientific studies and spine-chilling VAERS reports of vaccine damage. One chapter for every vaccine, a separate chapter for autism. Every vaccine has a long track record of death and permanent disability caused by it, and he snaps out one chilling paragraph after another, citing scientific studies right and left. SIDS, allergies, diabetes, autism, on to next vaccine.

    Like

  264. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Ella,
    I know I wish Lara would understand that her experience is not my experience or your experience. That’s thinking in a box.

    Like

  265. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    Ella,
    I’ve heard about the studies with the Amish…they seem to do really well without vaccines and their Autism rates are almost non existent. I’ll have to check out the book.

    Like

  266. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    You’re right, Joe, no vaccines are safe, period. I agonized for a few years about whether to get my daughter a tetanus booster, for all the obvious reasons, but I finally thought what a tetanus booster had done to me, and decided it wasn’t worth the risk. How do you and your wife feel about homeopathy? (Not directing this ques tion at the sharks)

    Like

  267. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Why should Joe expose his child and family life to your mockery? He’s seen what you’ve done to mine.

    Like

  268. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    Joe,
    Do you think maybe everyone defending the site is computer-generated? That might explain their lack of humanity.

    Like

  269. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Ella,
    We’ve done homeopathy in the past and had very positive results! We’re not currently doing any at the moment but would do again if needed.

    Like

  270. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Ella,
    I know I actually feel bad about my tone and such at times but I can only take so much before dishing some out of my own. I wish we could just have discussions on here and respect other opinions. We may all learn something that way.

    Like

  271. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    Lawrence,
    The Age of Autism (book) had several chapters on the Tuskegee study. I knew that my father and grandfather had been named for Dr. Searcy, a doctor my great-grandfather knew and admired, I was surprised to learn that he was the doctor from Tuscaloosa who headed the study.,I was also exceedingly surprised to learn that the black men denied the standard syphilis treatment of the time, mercury ointment, had much better outcomes than if they had poisoned themselves with the mercury. Sort of ironic, and again supports our belief that it’s often better to stay away from doctors and their nostrums (vaccines and drugs), and concentrate on good nutrition and healthy living.

    Like

  272. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    @lara
    If you are open to biomedical treatments and/or Son Rise therapy I would be happy to help you with your son.

    Like

  273. August 24, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    @lilady – why do I get the sense that Joe & ella are the same person?

    @Joe – so, you’re against the rabies vaccine too?

    And I answered your question, now answer mine (bad form, since I asked mine first anyway).

    I think you and ella would be much happier continuing your discussion over at AoA – that way you wouldn’t have to put up with us offering, you know, actual facts and evidence – they love your stories over there.

    Like

  274. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    @Joe, vaccines may cause injury such as you suggest in extremely rare situations, so rare that there isn’t any way to definitively link it to vaccines. Another thing to keep in mind is that not all vaccines cause a reaction, not even a mild one, other then localized pain at the injection site. Stepping on a needle will do the same thing, but it can’t give you autism or brain damage, tetanus maybe. Another reason why cia/ella is lying, the ‘reaction’ she describes in her daughter is not even associated with the hep b vaccine. In fact, the only vaccines that have any reports of the reactions any of you are claiming is the DTaP and the MMR/MMRV. But again, the instances of actual reaction on that dramatic of a scale is difficult to link solely and directly to the vaccine as they happen so rarely. With autism numbering at 1 in 88 in the US, it’s highly unlikely that vaccines are responsible. The reactions which result in the injuries you suggest cannot be definitely linked to vaccines as the instances of them happening are too rare. Please try to remember that.

    Based on what I have read of biomed ‘treatments’ no thank you. My son doesn’t even have bowel issues requiring I use a special diet. He is mildly to moderately autistic, has SPD, Expressive and receptive language delay, echolalia and various other issues, which his speech and language therapist, his Occupational Therapist and his pre-school teachers and developmental psychologist have been working with him on and he is making great progress. He still isn’t potty trained, but in just over a week, he begins kindergarten, in a normal school, with regular children and a special support team to aid him when he needs it.

    For the record, I am not the one stuck in a box. I read everything new that comes out relating to autism, treatments and theories. I even read the new information released by anti-vaccine people, which really isn’t anything new, or even related to autism. It’s usually another poorly designed or cherry picked and unethical study showing how vaccines have to be the cause. I am open to new ideas regarding autism, but anti-vaccine groups simply rehash the same old, and tired, arguments and it gets tedious reading the same claims over and over again, all of which have been debunked over and over again.

    Like

  275. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    Hey Law….I love your stories too….and you never answered my question.

    Like

  276. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 10:42 pm

    @Lara
    You are stuck in a box….those issues your son has can be improved or completely healed.

    Like

  277. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    L,
    And how would you know it when a very “rare” adverse event occurred? If even injuries apparent immediately upon vaccination are not accepted by you as such, what would be? If neurological or immune system injuries do not manifest for a few days, than for usre you’ll throw it out as a vaccine injury. So can you identify any vaccine injury that has happened anywhere, any time, that you believe was one, and give particulars about it, what happened, and what makes you convinced it was the fault of the vaccine? I’ll throw this one open to the whole panel of you, maybe you can confer about it in your after-hours conference call. Or do you just think it makes you sound reasonable and judicious to say that vaccine injuries can conceivably occur, they just never do in real life? Sort of like when you can have jam, jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, never jam today.

    Like

  278. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    @Joe, my son is improving. Even if I did nothing he would improve because autism is developmental delay, not stasis (that is getting old now and I’m tired of saying it.) There is no evidence that biomed ‘treatments’ produce any positive results, because everyone who subjects their child to them are also being given extensive ABA or other approved autism therapies, which have already been proven to facilitate improvement. Not to be rude, but keep your junk science and hokum away from my son.

    Like

  279. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    Joe,
    I’m the same, I’m never a smart mouth in real life, but I also get fed up with this — and can’t take it anymore. Do you think Law is making fun of L and LL when he conjectures that you and I are the same person, or maybe the three Ls are really only one?

    Like

  280. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 11:04 pm

    Joe,
    Got another one for you. Did you read the Narnia books as a boy? I keep thinking about the last scene of The Last Battle in which a bunch of trolls (is that what they were, or is the company I keep here unconsciously feeding me words?) are sitting in Heaven, but think they’re in a tiny, dark, crowded, filthy, smelly jail cell. They snipe constantly at each other, cutting each other down. When Lucy hands a flower to one of them, he angrily grabs it and throws it away, saying Don’t you dare throw manure at me!

    Like

  281. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    @lara
    You are in a box…how do you know until you’ve tried it. My son has never had any ABA and his improvements have come very quickly….we even see improvments almst over night with some things…..you really need to open up your mind for your son’s sake. Please tell me what biomedical you have tried or what you are afraid of? Open your mind please!!!

    Like

  282. ella
    August 24, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    What has to be randomized? If the doctors were given children at random to attend, the only necessary factor would be that the doctors not know who was vaccinated and who wasn’t, as that might unconsciously influence their ideas and diagnoses. It sounds as though you were just trying to throw in monkeywrenches so no study will ever be done.

    And, Joe, sorry, but what was the question that Law refuses to answer? I scrolled up but couldn’t find it. And I’d like L to answer what the insults and threats she says she received at AoA were.

    Like

  283. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 11:14 pm

    @lara
    Really, Autisim is just a delay? Then all kids should improve right? What is causing the delay and what seems to be improving it Lara?

    Like

  284. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 11:15 pm

    @ella/cia, you are being ridiculous now. I’m not a medical professional. That being the case, of course I can’t tell you any instance of a vaccine reaction or injury or its particulars. Again, vaccine reactions, such as you and Joe believe happen in the frequency to cause the vast majority of cases of autism, only happen with two vaccines, DTaP and MMR/MMRV and again so rare that it cannot be pin pointed that the vaccine was the actual culprit, but they were reported and made note of. I think you may be forgetting which side you are on, you’re kind of making my argument for me. And you are twisting words again. Where in anyone’s posts has anyone said that vaccine injuries or reactions never happen? I must have struck a nerve with you for you to get so riled up as you are. And actually, most vaccine reactions will manifest within minutes or hours of the vaccine and typically subside after a day or two. Your frequently stated prolonged, 4 day inconsolable screaming of your daughter, is not due to a vaccine reaction. I am still under the suspicion that you may have shaken your baby and that is what caused her injuries, and also why you didn’t take her to the emergency room for medical attention. If you were really that worried about her, you should have.

    Like

  285. Joe
    August 24, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    Ella,

    I asked Law since he admits that vaccines can and do cause injury, then why can’t vaccines cause injury to the brain and cause Autisim? He won’t answer that simple question.

    Like

  286. Lara Lohne
    August 24, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    Clearly Joe knows nothing at all about autism and what therapies help and why they help. He is attempting to get a rise out of me by saying I’m in a box and have a closed mind because I won’t try quack medicine (because just like homeopathy, or magic water, it doesn’t work.) Due to his relentless, incessant nagging of me, I have decided he is no longer worth my time, nor is cia/ella. Hopefully someone with an actually working mind shows up here soon. We have a troll infestation now. P.S. Joe, I refer you again to the research work of Dr. Eric Courchesne as he goes into it in great detail about why there is a delay and why there is also improvement. If you don’t read it, then clearly you are the one with a closed mind as you are too afraid to read actual scientific research showing autism is caused by something other then vaccines. Hmm, interesting how the pot tries to call the kettle black, eh?

    Like

  287. Joe
    August 25, 2012 at 12:19 am

    @lara
    I already had planned on checking out Dr. Courchesne….why wouldn’t I?

    Ironic you say that I don’t know what therapies work….when I am the one actually trying them all out and open to new ideas. Why is getting rid of Candida quakery? Why is healing leaky gut and allergies quackery? Why is supporting the body with much needed vitamins, minerals, probiotics, etc quackery? Whys is the GAPS diet or being GFCF quackery? Why is doing Son-Rise therapy quackery? Why is getting heavy metals out of the body quackery? How about killing off the bad bacteria? Still quackery? Need I go on? Yes….these things are called biomedical treatments. And BTW…. we see an MD who helps with all of it…..MD….must be a quack.

    Like

  288. Joe
    August 25, 2012 at 12:22 am

    @lara
    And unlike you I will read Dr. Courchesne and I will have one more view to think about with all of the others…then I will do my best for my son. See how fun it is having an open mind and not being in a box? It gives me freedom to what is best for my son.

    Like

  289. Gray Falcon
    August 25, 2012 at 12:34 am

    Joe, are you aware that the “Don’t knock it until you tried it” argument can just as easily be applied to methamphetamine?

    Like

  290. Gray Falcon
    August 25, 2012 at 12:36 am

    Joe :
    Ella,
    I asked Law since he admits that vaccines can and do cause injury, then why can’t vaccines cause injury to the brain and cause Autisim? He won’t answer that simple question.

    Because as questions go, it’s the same as asking “You admit that radiation can cause genetic changes. So why do you say it can’t give people laser vision?” One statement does not lead to the other.

    Like

  291. Joe
    August 25, 2012 at 12:42 am

    @Gray….so you don’t try anything? Do you eat fruits and vegetables? Meat? Drink water? Do you brush your teeth? Shower? You must be looking and smelling pretty nad these days.

    Like

  292. Joe
    August 25, 2012 at 12:44 am

    @Gray…so just to be clear you are saying that a vaccine cannot cause injury to the brain?

    Like

  293. Joe
    August 25, 2012 at 12:51 am

    @Gray
    The next time somobody tells me to vaccinate I’ll say, “my good friend Gray says that the “Don’t knock it until you tried it” argument can just as easily be applied to methamphetamine?”

    Like

  294. Gray Falcon
    August 25, 2012 at 1:25 am

    Joe :
    @Gray….so you don’t try anything? Do you eat fruits and vegetables? Meat? Drink water? Do you brush your teeth? Shower? You must be looking and smelling pretty nad these days.

    No, I just know that if the evidence shows something doesn’t work or is dangerous, I shouldn’t have to try it to find out.

    @Gray…so just to be clear you are saying that a vaccine cannot cause injury to the brain?

    No, I’m saying there’s no link between vaccination and autism. Unless you consider it acceptable to attribute arguments to an opponent that they haven’t made, in which case, how dare you suggest I sacrifice infants to Moloch!

    @Gray
    The next time somobody tells me to vaccinate I’ll say, “my good friend Gray says that the “Don’t knock it until you tried it” argument can just as easily be applied to methamphetamine?”

    Only if they stupidly try to make the “don’t knock it until you’ve tried it” argument. Our argument is “the benefits outweigh the risks.” Again, why do you support heathen child sacrifice?

    Like

  295. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 1:46 am

    Joe:

    @Gray…so just to be clear you are saying that a vaccine cannot cause injury to the brain?

    Joe, so just to be clear you are saying that measles, mumps, pertussis, haemophilus influenzae type b, rubella, tetanus and polio cannot cause injury to the brain?

    And if they do, should we not prevent that damage? And how should we do it?

    Like

  296. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 3:50 am

    Hi Chris! How was your day?

    Like

  297. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 4:55 am

    Gray Falcon :
    For example, Karmen claimed to have had to “held him down” while vaccinating him. Anyone familiar with the basics of pediatric medicine would know that a nurse should not do that.

    Are you at all familiar with procedures NOT being followed? You statement is solely a discrediting attempt, and a lame one at that.

    Joe :
    @Lara
    My now two year old daughter (not vaccinated) didn’t go through the Purple Crying period you are refrring too. Wonder if there is a connection between vaccinations and Purple Crying?

    I have two boys, neither of them were given the HepB or any other vaccine. Neither of them have had a ‘PURPLE crying’ period. In fact, I have yet to find reference to this supposed ‘normal’ stage prior to 2003. Are they any references previous to this? If this is a newly defined stage of development, which I suspect that it is, its smacks of attempting to normalize adverse reactions and the pain and suffering that vaccines can and do cause.

    And ella, you may wish to try raw milk from organic grass fed cows. The pasteurization process destroys the lactase in milk. Humans, autistic or not, do no have the enzymes to fully process lactose. The natural lactase in unpasteurized milk breaks down the lactose. Many people with lactose intolerance are able to drink raw milk without issue for this reason.

    Like

  298. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 5:06 am

    Lawrence :
    @joe – you believe a vaccine caused your son’s autistic diagnosis. I know, based on all of the available scientific evidence, that it did not.
    Believe what you will, but your opinion is unsupported by facts.

    You are an arrogant ass!! You read papers and make diagnoses without the full history? Who died and left you as God of knowledge??? Vioxx was, in virtually every published paper safe and effective. So went the dogma until so many people died from it that it could not be ignored anymore. Even then, did the FDA, CDC or pharma do anything about it? NO. They let more people die until the lawsuits started. If you think that your establishment ‘researchers’ are unbiased and without multi million dollar conflicts of interest, you are a fool!

    Like

  299. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 5:30 am

    Lara Lohne :
    Steve, I have three beautiful, neurotypical boys, two of which are adults now, who were vaccinated. My second son developed an ear infection (turned out it was e coli) from his chicken pox rash when he was 4, but other then that all three of my neurotypical boys are healthy and developed well above average. I also have two beautiful neurotypical girls, one who is an adult now, also both vaccinated, my oldest (girl) had a few bouts with strep throat when she was in grade school, but after the age of 9 it was no longer an issue. I also have one beautiful little boy who is autistic. Of my 5 children, only my youngest was not vaccinated on schedule. He is fully vaccinated now, but wasn’t vaccinated prior to the obvious signs of autism manifesting.
    My siblings and I, however, were not vaccinated, and aside from chicken pox, mumps, pertussis, and meningitis (in one of my younger sisters’ case) we grew up with severe colds, ear infections and allergies. Thankfully, most of that went away for us by the age of 10 or 12.
    In Hannah Poling’s case, the vaccine didn’t cause her mitochondrial disorder, that was pre-existing. The high fever she got after the vaccine (which is a common known side effect of vaccines) activated the disorder and that caused injury. It alerted them to a condition that was not known before. When the inevitable happened and she got an infection (and let’s face it, kids get infections all the time) the injury she suffered could have been much, much worse. By alerting them to the pre-existing condition, they are able to be more vigilant with regarding to what she is exposed to. In that regard, the vaccine she received could very well have saved her life in an entirely unseen manner.
    @Joe, Anecdotes mean nothing because there are such stories with and without vaccines. Your personal experience means squat when compared with the mountains of data that show us there is no evidence of any causal relationship between vaccines and autism, or any of the other things you folks claim there is. The injuries associated with vaccination are well known and well documented. Guess what? Autism is not one of them.

    Each in turn, yes my children are anecdotal. So are yours. We have danced this dance before. No need to tango again. I will say this though, if I vaccinated my children starting tomorrow and they regressed I would say it was the vaccine. You would say it was not. You would be wrong. I will not vaccinate and they will not regress.

    Yes children get sick, vaccinated or not, but studies have shown that chronic illness is much more prevalent in vaccinated children.

    Hannah Poling had a pre-existing condition. Was this condition tested for before vaccination? NO
    Are ANY children tested now that we know about the issue? NO
    Are any children test for allergies to ingredients BEFORE vaccination? NO

    The moral of the story? The establishment know full well that vaccines can and do cause damage, and in fact at least some of the risk factors can be determined in advance and yet they choose to do NOTHING to protect those vulnerable children. That is evil, and the fact that you blindly support this butchering of children is also evil. You can support the notion of ‘collateral damage for the greater good’ if you wish. My children are not cannon fodder!

    As far a your risk analysis goes, you compare risk of a vaccine with a known risk with the ‘inevitable’ (are you psychic or something) infection that ‘could’ be less or maybe not. It’s a bit like saying I’m going to run over my cat with a small car today because they may be run over by a lorry tomorrow. It’s not logic. It’s nonsense.

    And as far as your comment to Joe, there are not mountains of evidence. There are mountains of comparative and concomitant studies (most often funded directly or indirectly by pharma or conducted by researchers beholden to pharma and published in journals who’s primary revenue is from pharma advertising and direct funding) that say that having this vaccine with those vaccines is no more dangerous than having the other vaccine with the first set of vaccines. Read the research and you find that it is generally worthless and praised and worshiped by an establishment who’s gravy train depends on us accepting their word for it.

    Like

  300. August 25, 2012 at 6:19 am

    @Steve – arrogant? How about a “realist.” Again, you want us to see unicorns every time we hear hoof beats, but the real answer is always horses. People like you, Joe, and Ella (cia, cynthia, etc) make extraordinary claims about vaccines causing autism, yet you can’t even provide simple evidence (much less the extraordinary evidence that would normally be required).

    And Joe, who originally came in here to “just tell a story” has devolved along the same path as all of our standard trolls – throw out their information & then get angry and belligerent when that information is debunked or challenged.

    Now he is pushing Biomed, when we’ve again already debunked things like Chelation, chemical castration, or MMS – and also shown that autism is about developmental delay – not developmental status – autistic children do improve, on their own, over time – by adulthood, even children that were severely autistic can be found to function as almost normal – with even greater success with early intervention with actual therapies, not quack “cure-alls.”

    As for Joe’s question – has anyone here claimed that vaccine injuries don’t exist? Because yes, they do – they are tracked, studied, and we have a really good handle on approximately how often they happen. If you actually read the vaccine inserts, known reactions (and ones that were reported, but not conclusively connected have to be listed as well – likes VAERS reports) the statistics are widely available.

    The link between autism & vaccines has been studies – dozens, if not hundreds of times – including large-scale population studies (as good as we get for an unvax / vax study – unless you can repeal the various medical ethics protocols – and I don’t think you want to do that). The link doesn’t exist – in fact, in some population studies, vaccines have been found to “lessen” the chances of autism.

    @Ella – again, that’s not how double-blind, placebo controlled studies works – in fact, the doctors themselves “don’t” know who got placebo and who would get the vaccine – that is what “double-blind” means – the only ones who would know would be the creators of the study – that way, neither the parents, nor the doctors would be influenced by the vaccine status of the child.

    Which means you’re idea is hogwash – if you want it done right, done definitively, done the right way where you can eliminate all questions of bias, you have to be random, you have to be double-blind, and that is medically unethical when it comes to vaccines – because as a parent, you’re child would be potentially put at real risk of disease or death – in the case of an outbreak (of anything) you would have no idea if your child was at risk or not.

    So, if you are still convinced it can be done, as has been requested before – go ahead & work with SanVax, the NVIC & AoA to design a study and submit it for review and consideration (IRB), then fund it and carry it out. You are the ones making the extraordinary claims, yet you don’t put your money where your mouth is & you want other people to provide the evidence for you……

    Seriously, you guys need to get a new home – why do you keep coming here & getting trashed by real Science and Evidence? Trying to make us look mean? You should see the comments I got at AoA when I posted some very simple, very non-threatening questions – I was attacked, verbally abused, and accused of the most heinous things – without my ability to defend myself, because anti-vaccine websites don’t allow many, if any, opposing viewpoints (unless the want to let one through to make that person a target).

    Kind of different here, don’t you think? Care to explain the double-standard?

    Like

  301. ella
    August 25, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Lawrence,
    How can you debunk treatments which have helped so many? You’re just hoping your sententious proclamation will prove persuasive. And Chris, why do you keep saying “As you have been told over and over?” You sound like a schoolteacher. And you guys keep talking about people who “derail” the discourse, as though there were only one conclusion this train is headed for, which,of course, is the truth, so I guess it is a fair term for you to use. Not, however, in line with the stated purpose of this blog, which is to permit people to discuss their opinions on whether or not vaccines are safe and necessary. I’ll have to warn you, if you come clean about the only discourse which will be received respectfully on this site being hesitant questions as to whether you believe vaccines are safe and necessary, no one will want to read it. I know you’ve packed the audience with apparently independent posters who represent a wide gamut of the population, from every level of education and social class, from the educated to the almost illiterate, all of whom declare themselves to be totally satisfied with the “irrefutable” evidence that vaccines are “safe, effective, and necessary to combat deadly diseases like pertussis and measles.” You routinely abuse all of us sad people who come with our testimony of how vaccines injured us or our families, because we derail the desired discourse.

    Like

  302. ella
    August 25, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Lawrence,
    I’m not going to use the disrespectful term hogwash to refer to your opinion, but you are sadly mistaken. If the children are assigned randomly to doctors, what difference would it make? Can parents make their children have autism or asthma because they know their vaccine status? That sounds like magical, not scientific, thinking. The doctors be blinded, examine them, and find what they find. Someone has to know the children’s vaccine status, since someone actually has to pull the trigger. Do you want God to vaccinate some and toss them randomly to different families and doctors? Do you want to just have your way with the population forever and not ever do a study to determine how many have been injured by it?

    Like

  303. ella
    August 25, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Steve,

    How do we know that Hannah had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder? No one tested for it before she got the slew of fateful vaccines which catapulted her into autism. Her mother was eventually tested for it and shown to have it, but the mother never got tipped into autism because she didn’t get the slew of vaccines when she was one year old, but went on to be a successful mother, attorney, and nurse, leading an extremely active life. Hannah was healthy and active, walking, talking, socializing, acting as a typical peer for a preschool for developmentally delayed children, until she got the vaccines and became one of the handicapped children.

    I believe it is more likely that she had the genetic predisposition to succumb to the disorder if the appropriate stimulus occurred, since studies have proven that vaccines can cause mitochondrial disorder which did not previously exist. See article by Boyd Haley in Vaccine Epidemic that I quoted from at length the other day about mercury causing mitochondrial disorder because it binds exceptionally tightly to the electron transporting system of mitochondria. That explains the regression of so many previously healthy, normal children after vaccines. The fact that their numbers become greater with every vaccine added to the schedule would seem to indicate that it is a continuum rather than an absolute tendency: everyone has a tipping point beyond which they will fall into mitochondrial disorder and all the ills caused by vaccines, but the point is higher for some than for others because of a genetic tendency.

    Like

  304. lilady
    August 25, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Why are these posters defending ella’s sockie Karmen? Karmen came here to post the most ludicrous of false information about her supposed (lack of) education in basic science, nutrition, pediatrics, pharmacology..etc., yet had the audacity to use BS Nursing, RN after her name.

    Karmen then claimed she held her child down while administered vaccine…which if you had any work experience in any health care field, you would know was a complete and utter lie.
    I provided a section about being certified to handle/administer vaccines from the CDC Pink Book…which obviously none of these posters read.

    @ Lawrence: After reading how Steve Michael viciously attacked Autismum on the Patriot Nurse post in January, and after reading his other posts attacking parents in the UK who receive assistance from the government, it became apparent to me, that he is a smug ex-pat with children who have no medical or developmental issues. He seems to think that his opinion counts here and is using this blog to work out his grand conspiracy theories:

    January 29, 2012 at 5:00 pm | #88
    Quote

    You know Nathan, 15 years ago I had a friend who we all thought was nuts. He kept going
    on about the CFR, the Bilderbergers, the Council of Rome, the Rockefellers and the like. We thought he was a raving lunatic and made fun of him behind his back. All you have to do now is read the papers to see that he was actually right. Well, maybe not US papers, but European papers and news outlets freely talk about, not only the existence of these societies, but how they influence public policy against the will of democratic process. They operate behind closed doors and secretly plan policies that elected governments implement against the will of the people. Conspiracy? Yes. Exaggerated? No. If you think for a minute that government agencies are trying to help Americans live healthier, then why do they perform unethical experiments without consent? Why do they attack raw milk producers and do nothing about prescription drugs that are killing 10′s of thousands? Why do they attack supplement companies while allowing GMO to infiltrate the food supply without any labeling when their own scientist have reported the dangers and been ignored? The evidence is so overwhelming that it beggars belief that you can ignore it all!

    Lawrence, just thought you would enjoy this trip down memory lane with one of Steve’s more memorable quotes.

    Like

  305. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Gee lilady, let me help you out here because when you stroll down memory lane to try to ridicule me as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ (an ad hominem if ever there was one), what I was pointing out was that I too ridiculed the ‘conspiracy theorist’ in my life way back when. The problem with your attempt at smearing me is exactly the point that I was making. Those ‘theories’ are no longer ‘theories’ they are FACTS, exposed and out in the open and actually publicly confirmed by members of the formerly secret clubs. 15 years ago the Council for Foreign Relations was a ‘conspiracy theory’. Here’s their web site today:

    http://www.cfr.org/

    I don’t which is more amusing, the idea that you rant about my points with zero refutation, or that you make yourself look such an idiot when you try to discredit me… Let me rephrase your attempted smear. Steve says there were people talking about secret organizations which were kept from the public. Steve says he ridiculed his friend because he didn’t believe them. Those organizations have now, to various degrees, stepped out of the shadows and his friend was right all along. What a lunatic Steve is. Reworded it doesn’t sound so convincing.

    Like

  306. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 11:44 am

    Lawrence :
    @Steve – arrogant? How about a “realist.” Again, you want us to see unicorns every time we hear hoof beats, but the real answer is always horses. People like you, Joe, and Ella (cia, cynthia, etc) make extraordinary claims about vaccines causing autism, yet you can’t even provide simple evidence (much less the extraordinary evidence that would normally be required).

    Realist? Let’s just say for example that Joe’s report is not accurate. Are you saying that with all of the ‘research’ that you can definitively state that vaccines can NEVER cause damage? You sound like those people who admit that vaccines cause damage, but NO case brought to your attention can be true. Let me issue you with a challenge my realist friend. Show me one, just one study that is not concurrent or concomitant in which unvaxed children are compared to vaxed and takes into account the potential interactions of the pathogens as well as the preservatives, adjuvants and antibiotics. . Not more vaxed versus less vaxed. I will give you a hint for free: THERE AREN’T ANY! That is precisely why all of these studies are really worthless. You can do 10,000 studies, but if they all ask the wrong question you will never get an accurate outcome. Let me point out how this works. If you want to test for reactions to, say, injected neomycin and you have a double blind placebo study where one group is injected with neomycin and the other not. Both groups have received vaccines containing neomycin. Of what value would those results be? Everyone has been exposed, just some get a bit more. It may be of use to study reactivity thresholds but not safety because ALL participants have been exposed and will exhibit the same basic outcomes. This is exactly what was done in a study to ‘prove’ that thimerasol was safe. The researchers studied the health outcomes of more versus less vaxed kids and concluded that since there were no discernible differences in outcomes that the greater thimerasol load was not harmful. That is psuedo-science. All that was really proven was that both exposure levels were within the same threshold band for the experienced outcomes.

    Like

  307. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Lara Lohne:

    Hi Chris! How was your day?

    Busy. We about to get flooded with garden produce, and then there is the crunch to get things done before all three kids start college classes (that includes getting the financial bits in order).

    I see you all dealing with the moving goal posts.

    Like

  308. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    @ella/cia, if you wanted a study done on whether the things you claim are caused by vaccines, the only way it could be done properly would be to start from 0, which means newborns. Not children who are already diagnosed or vaccinated or otherwise. That way there would be no selection bias on the part of the parents, which tends to happen among the anti-vaccine crowd whenever there is a call for participates in a study or survey to try and show prevalence of certain diseases, illnesses, etc, caused by vaccines. They would need a widely diverse (ethnically, and socioeconomically) group of newborns, separated equally between gender, ethnicity and economic status, give half of them vaccines on schedule, give half of them a placebo on the same schedule, monitor them over years and years and see which group is the most unhealthy. You cannot just offer up your child, because there may be situations involved with her past medical history making her participation null (E.g. shaken baby syndrome). The blindness of the study has to be both doctors and the parents so as to eliminate ANY and ALL selection bias. The biggest problem with the study you suggest is that only anti-vaccine parents would offer up their children for study, because they are the only ones who actually believe there is a link. The study could not be performed because there wouldn’t be a large enough ‘control’ group compared to the study group. Another interesting point actually, in order to prevent any other situation from nulling a participate in the study, the babies would need to be kept in a controlled environment to eliminate accidents and injuries not related to the study goal. I don’t know many parents who would want to give up their newborn for several years to test whether vaccines cause autism or not.

    Like

  309. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    I am sure that Mr. Michaels is perfectly capable of designing the study to cover all of his requirements and comply with all of the rules for using human subjects in both the Declaration of Helsinki and the Belmont Report. If he, ella, joe, and their friends want this study done then they should write a grant to get it funded. I am sure that Polly Tommey of Autism Trust would be delighted help fund it. And so would SafeMinds, TACA, Generation Rescue and Autism Speaks.

    So please stop telling us what study needs to be done, and just go do it. There are plenty of deep pockets who would be willing to fund it.

    Like

  310. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Or better yet: start a Kickstarter campaign to fund that study. Good luck with it!

    Like

  311. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    @ella/cia, if you wanted a study done on whether the things you claim are caused by vaccines, the only way it could be done properly would be to start from 0, which means newborns. Not children who are already diagnosed or vaccinated or otherwise. That way there would be no selection bias on the part of the parents, which tends to happen among the anti-vaccine crowd whenever there is a call for participates in a study or survey to try and show prevalence of certain diseases, illnesses, etc, caused by vaccines. They would need a widely diverse (ethnically, and socioeconomically) group of newborns, separated equally between gender, ethnicity and economic status, give half of them vaccines on schedule, give half of them a placebo on the same schedule, monitor them over years and years and see which group is the most unhealthy. You cannot just offer up your child, because there may be situations involved with her past medical history making her participation null (E.g. shaken baby syndrome). The blindness of the study has to be both doctors and the parents so as to eliminate ANY and ALL selection bias. The biggest problem with the study you suggest is that only anti-vaccine parents would offer up their children for study, because they are the only ones who actually believe there is a link. The study could not be performed because there wouldn’t be a large enough ‘control’ group compared to the study group. Another interesting point actually, in order to prevent any other situation from nulling a participate in the study, the babies would need to be kept in a controlled environment to eliminate accidents and injuries not related to the study goal. I don’t know many parents who would want to give up their newborn for several years to test whether vaccines cause autism or not.

    Why do you not hold the same standards of perfection of design to the studies YOU use to make your claims? EVERY one of your studies fall short of this utopian study design you are espousing.

    What your suggestion REALLY shows is that NO study that shows a link, and there are many, will be accepted by you because you hold a distinct double standard. If it shows what you want, you are willing to forgive a multitude of sins in study design and execution, if it does not you can hold up your ‘standards’ as cause to dismiss.

    Like

  312. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    @Chris, I miss having a yard and a garden, but maybe that will happen for me again some day. I totally hear you on the getting ready for school thing, even though there isn’t a lot to do to prepare for kindergarten. It’s the first time I’ll have to send one of my children to school with diapers and a change of clothing also. But I suppose things could be a lot worse. My son and I are going next week to meet his new teacher and see his new classroom, hopefully his support team will be there as well so he can meet them all. I only just got notice of the open house yesterday evening so will need to wait to call until Monday.

    As for the moving goal posts, it’s sad that they don’t even know they twist things. It’s almost as though there is a part of their brain that common sense and logic just aren’t able to penetrate, almost like anti-autism, and they also have selective hearing on top of it all. *sigh*

    I can’t believe someone actually recommended biomed treatments for my son, that is a scary thought if ever I’ve heard one. And calling me close minded because I don’t try them? Well, I won’t try cocaine or meth either, but I’m pretty sure that doesn’t make me a bad person. My son is making great progress with the interventions he has, he doesn’t have bowel issues or food allergies or anything like that so it doesn’t make any sense to try biomed treatments. Even special diets have not been shown to alleviate the symptoms of autism, just to remove the bowel issues in those who have food allergies or sensitivities, removing the pain which improved ability to concentrate and learn and ‘bad’ behavior to diminish. They don’t actually have any effect on symptoms of autism in a child who does not have food allergies or sensitivities, so putting my son on a special diet would not benefit him. As for the other things, I’m not poisoning my son with bleach or chemical chelators and certainly not going to subject him to chemical castration. One, these things do not work.Two, none of them are recognized as actual treatments for autism and therefore would not be covered by his health coverage. Three I don’t have thousands of dollars to fork over for them anyway (I expect this statement will attract some off topic insulting remark from putinhead about my ‘inability to pay so I should play’.) When I think about the hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly millions now, that have been wasted on bogus biomed treatments and fantastical and pointless ‘studies’ it hurts me. How much actual good could all of that money have done if it had been given to fund a real study for therapies that actually help, or studies into the actual cause of autism, etc. It astounds me the lengths people will go to when they cannot accept the truth about their child.

    Like

  313. Lowell
    August 25, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Lara Lohne The blindness of the study has to be both doctors and the parents so as to eliminate ANY and ALL selection bias. The biggest problem with the study you suggest is that only anti-vaccine parents would offer up their children for study, because they are the only ones who actually believe there is a link. The study could not be performed because there wouldn’t be a large enough ‘control’ group compared to the study group. Another interesting point actually, in order to prevent any other situation from nulling a participate in the study, the babies would need to be kept in a controlled environment to eliminate accidents and injuries not related to the study goal. I don’t know many parents who would want to give up their newborn for several years to test whether vaccines cause autism or not.

    You people simply attempt to make every so difficult. How do you think they were able to design and do such as the CDC funded Danish epidemiological study that they clam refutes the vaccine connections to the MMR vaccine? They accepted that as proof, even though it was a predetermined sham study with multiple issues with its design.

    All they need to do is follow the same process and do a study comparing entirely unvaccinated to vaccinated groups, from birth. How hard would that be to do, if they really wanted to. It is only as difficult as they choose it to be. We have now a good supply of non vaccinating parents in the US. Follow the the records for the vaccine exemptions in each state. Actually double blind would be not that difficult, all chosen randomly and done by a group of people that have no conflict of interest. All records entirely open, but of course names of families keep private. Do it the same way as the CDC has accepted for their own studies. We also have large groups of Amish that have 100’s of people with children that have never been vaccinated. Dont let them lie to you, they are there. Match up at random equal size groups of both. Let the CDC fund it but be entirely without the power to control the information and results outcome. Attempt first before the study starts to get the CDC to accept the design of the study, then they have no way out.

    Like

  314. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Actually, Mr. Michaels, you are the one that will not accept the studies that have been done. This particular study won’t be done simply because of the unethical nature of it. Parents willingly giving up their newborns for years (would have to be straight out of the hospital also as there is that newborn hep b now given routinely at birth)? Only giving half of these newborns actual vaccines while allowing the others to be susceptible to disease and death, and nobody knowing which half that is, because if anyone did know it could cause the entire study to collapse due to selection and person biases. And what happens if a disease is introduced to the control group accidentally? Nobody really knows when/if they are exposing anyone to a disease that has the potential to kill until after the fact, since most diseases are contagious prior to the onset of symptoms.

    Since this particular study is unethical, even though it would be ideal, we make due with what we have, and what we do have has not been able to find any correlation between incidence of autism and vaccination. Since the studies that have been done have not found any correlation, there is no need to perform a placebo controlled, double blind study on infants. I find your apathy toward infants and newborns insufferable. That you would be OK with offering up these little babies and use them like this is a frightening thought. The entire idea is repugnant to me, why are you OK with it?

    Like

  315. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Lowell, please stop buying into the ‘Amish don’t vaccine so they don’t have autism’ sham. That has been refuted by directors of a clinic that treats Amish children and while they don’t vaccinate as much as the general population, they do vaccinate, and they actually have more frequent occurrences of autism and other developmental delays, learning disabilities, etc, then the general population. Many of these conditions are co-morbid, meaning multiple disorders simultaneously in one individual. The Amish vaccinate and the Amish also have autism, therefore your statement is ridiculous.

    Like

  316. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Lara Lohne:

    It’s the first time I’ll have to send one of my children to school with diapers and a change of clothing also. But I suppose things could be a lot worse. My son and I are going next week to meet his new teacher and see his new classroom, hopefully his support team will be there as well so he can meet them all.

    Oh, yeah, been there, done that! I remember those days, and actually it was my kid who was not disabled (and was a high school honor student) who almost started kindergarten in diapers. Ugh, it was only because he was very stubborn.

    When my special ed. son started kindergarten after three years of preschool at the same school, the brand new principal had the open house notice sent to all of the kindergarten families. So I went there, along with other special ed. parents, only to find that the special ed. teachers were not told this and it was only for regular ed. kindergarteners.

    Needless to say the new principal did not start off on the right foot. Fortunately he was willing to learn, and was a major factor in reconciling the differences between the regular ed. and special ed. programs. There were regular ed. parents who told me to my face they did not “those kids” in their school. That principal (and some of us special ed. parents) worked to change that attitude, and in the end the demand to attend that school increased.

    I participated in the PTA, and made sure the the new playground had disability access. And it was there that I learned if you propose a project, you had better be willing to head that committee. This is why I feel that if someone wants a certain kind of study, they better get off the Internets and go do it!

    Now I am off to remove a limb from a tree before it causes it to split.

    Like

  317. Lowell
    August 25, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    The other problem with the studies that have already been done, is that none of them have even been entirely vaxed verses unvaxed. Thye have no longer any excuse to claim that study would be unethical because it is immoral or wrong to leave children unvaccinated. That arguement false flat it face immediately, when there are the numbers of unvaccinated that already exist. If the CDC can fund the epidemiological studies tthey have that supposedly they claim show no link; then they can as well fund the study I just outlined. The CDC has of course a vested interest in vaccines never being so called proven to cause ASD. The reality of it all is that it is not only ASD that is being caused by vaccines. There is even a bigger issue and problem regarding brain and neurological damage; dysregualtion of the immune systemm and of course toxicity. The only way you will get to the bottom of that is by doing real physiological safety studies on actual human beings, or at the very least on mice, rats, an/or other animals; just like they do in pharmaceutical research as to safety and effect. To many peoples amazement, as it was to mine, and for those that are honest enough to ackowledge it; thsoe kinds of studies already do exist. They continue to go unrecognized and acknowledged by the CDC as well. All the while that they should have been doing follow up studies of their own. The largest but not only elephant in that room is the issue of vaccine aluminujm adjuvants, and no safety studies have ever been done. Yet, should they be as well then allowed to ignore the studies from the private and ubiased sector that show the true mechanisms of the harm and damage to the brain and neurologically; specifically speaking of aluminum adjuvants? They can claim that dietarily consumed aluminum is the same thing and detoxed the same way as if injected, but the existing studies show an entirely differant story and outcome.

    The only other and should be added studies in this of course are the epidemiologicals, such as I just referred to.

    The fact is that until these kinds of studies are actually done, all the blogging, article websites like this, with arguementative reply posting; and all the debate in the world; will NOT get solving the problem, nor get to the bottom of it all and at a point of resolution in once and for all answering the public question, are vaccines doing more harm than good, and what are real vaccine facts.

    The public and parents will become educated by it, the debate, that is for sure. However, the real issues as to any change in it all as to the factual information on vaccines, and as to general knowledge on and public opinion regarding vaccine; that can ONLY come about through the CDC and FDA, doing the right studies and by majorly revising their public information as to their standing on the real truth that exists.

    It is simply a matter of that if the CDC actually wanted to resolve this issue once and for all, they could do that. However, they know all to well that the studies that actually need to be done, would show far more than they want to realize and as well want the public to ever realize. They do know all to well that the results of such studies very well could end the vaccination programs as we know them. This as well is why they contnue to ignore the bulwark of said already existing studies. They at the CDC and FDA will drag their feet on all this until hell freezes over. There all we can do for now is research and educate. Educate those who will choose to learn and further do their own research. We can sometimes use the people on articles like this that endlessly refuse to accept facts. We will never see them ever change their statements and claims, because nothing would be enough for them, they must for whatever reason they have, deny all. What we can continue to do however is show again and again the error in their logic, and the errors in their information.

    Like

  318. Lowell
    August 25, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    And don’t be bitching about my spellings, etc. I was on a system that was malfuctioning and barely operable at the time of posting.

    Like

  319. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    Hey guys, I just read an interesting articlein the New York Times regarding a study into maternal inflammation and the occurrence of allergies, asthma and autism (as well as other disorders in children). It basically said evidence shows that inflammation while a woman is pregnant (due to infection, celiac disease, insulin resistance, etc) significantly increase the risk of her child developing allergies, asthma and also autism. They said it is more likely due to lack of beneficial microbes and parasites in modern civilizations which can help to regulate a mother’s immune system and decrease inflammation. It basically shows it isn’t from vaccines at all, but from being overly clean and sanitary, not only wiping out dangerous and/or deadly viruses and bacteria but also beneficial ones that regulate immune function and have been proven to be anti-inflammatory. That being the case, it isn’t lack of vaccination in developing countries or even more primal tribal communities that is effecting it, but the lack of primal/tribal conditions in western civilization that is leading to these things. I can link to the article, if anyone is interested in reading it. I believe there is also a link to the study as well.

    Like

  320. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Actually, Mr. Michaels, you are the one that will not accept the studies that have been done. This particular study won’t be done simply because of the unethical nature of it. Parents willingly giving up their newborns for years (would have to be straight out of the hospital also as there is that newborn hep b now given routinely at birth)? Only giving half of these newborns actual vaccines while allowing the others to be susceptible to disease and death, and nobody knowing which half that is, because if anyone did know it could cause the entire study to collapse due to selection and person biases. And what happens if a disease is introduced to the control group accidentally? Nobody really knows when/if they are exposing anyone to a disease that has the potential to kill until after the fact, since most diseases are contagious prior to the onset of symptoms.
    Since this particular study is unethical, even though it would be ideal, we make due with what we have, and what we do have has not been able to find any correlation between incidence of autism and vaccination. Since the studies that have been done have not found any correlation, there is no need to perform a placebo controlled, double blind study on infants. I find your apathy toward infants and newborns insufferable. That you would be OK with offering up these little babies and use them like this is a frightening thought. The entire idea is repugnant to me, why are you OK with it?

    Did you actually read what you wrote Lara? You have essentially conceded that your ‘ideal’ study is impossible and then go on to say that we have to make due with the flawed studies, except when the flawed studies show the wrong answer then we use the flaws to dismiss them. That is the essence of what you have said. Additionally, you have claimed that no CORRELATION has been established and that is blatantly false. The provax stance, in case you don’t understand it, is that there is a correlation which is coincidental because causation has not been established. At least get your story right b before writing your nonsense.

    Lara Lohne :
    Hey guys, I just read an interesting articlein the New York Times regarding a study into maternal inflammation and the occurrence of allergies, asthma and autism (as well as other disorders in children). It basically said evidence shows that inflammation while a woman is pregnant (due to infection, celiac disease, insulin resistance, etc) significantly increase the risk of her child developing allergies, asthma and also autism. They said it is more likely due to lack of beneficial microbes and parasites in modern civilizations which can help to regulate a mother’s immune system and decrease inflammation. It basically shows it isn’t from vaccines at all, but from being overly clean and sanitary, not only wiping out dangerous and/or deadly viruses and bacteria but also beneficial ones that regulate immune function and have been proven to be anti-inflammatory. That being the case, it isn’t lack of vaccination in developing countries or even more primal tribal communities that is effecting it, but the lack of primal/tribal conditions in western civilization that is leading to these things. I can link to the article, if anyone is interested in reading it. I believe there is also a link to the study as well.

    Hmmm, now lets see, does receiving vaccinations whilst pregnant carry an adverse reaction risk of inflammation? I note that you (and apparently the NYT) fail to add that to the list of potential causes. Wonder why…

    Like

  321. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Mr. Michaels, yes, I did read it before I posted and yes, a study such as the anti-vaccine crowd wants is impossible because human infants are not lab rats and using them as such would be unethical. Therefore we do epidemiology studies of the data we already have on vaccination and occurrences of autism and use that data to determine there isn’t any evidence to justify the unethical study the vaccine refusers would like to see.

    As to the vaccines during pregnancy BS you are attempting to use, the vaccines that produce inflammation that may cause the mother’s immune system to attack fetal brain tissue are contraindicated during pregnancy, therefore your point is not valid. The point is lack of beneficial microbes and parasites in our modern civilization that help to alleviate inflammation, and introduction of these beneficial microbes and parasites back into our ecosystem will greatly reduce many of the autoimmune disorders we see commonly now. The research thus far agrees with this assessment.

    Like

  322. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Mr. Michaels, yes, I did read it before I posted and yes, a study such as the anti-vaccine crowd wants is impossible because human infants are not lab rats and using them as such would be unethical. Therefore we do epidemiology studies of the data we already have on vaccination and occurrences of autism and use that data to determine there isn’t any evidence to justify the unethical study the vaccine refusers would like to see.
    As to the vaccines during pregnancy BS you are attempting to use, the vaccines that produce inflammation that may cause the mother’s immune system to attack fetal brain tissue are contraindicated during pregnancy, therefore your point is not valid. The point is lack of beneficial microbes and parasites in our modern civilization that help to alleviate inflammation, and introduction of these beneficial microbes and parasites back into our ecosystem will greatly reduce many of the autoimmune disorders we see commonly now. The research thus far agrees with this assessment.

    Since when does contraindication stop the CDC from recommending something? Your actually walked right into an unintended trap. I did not post intending to trap you, but your reply was so flawed that I had to double check to make sure I was correct. It is the recommendation of the CDC that ALL pregnant women receive the seasonal flu vaccine. Here is what the CDC says about adverse reactions to the flu vaccine:

    “Vaccine Side Effects (What to Expect)

    Different side effects can be associated with the flu shot and LAIV.
    The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. Some minor side effects that could occur are:

    Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
    Fever (low grade)
    Aches”

    Well let’s see now… what is swelling? It’s INFLAMMATION!! What causes aches? INFLAMMATION!! What is one of the factors that causes low grade fever? INFLAMMATION!

    Now to your other point about beneficial microbes and parasites…What is the BEST source of these microbes and parasites? RAW MILK and unprocessed raw vegetables. What is the FDA currently attacking at GUN POINT? Raw milk and home vegetable gardens….

    The reason I point this out is that you actually are touching on the truth but failing to see that your government agencies are actually quite actively fighting against this truth. Why is this important? Because you also believe that these same agencies are trying to protect you. If you recognize that these microbes are beneficial and that the FDA is trying to eliminate your access to them, you must certainly see that there is a HUGE question mark over whether these government agencies actually have YOUR best interests at heart…

    Like

  323. Th1Th2
    August 25, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    At least get your story right b before writing your nonsense.

    Or getting the story right about HBV as she claimed it to be a respiratory virus. She is by far worse than a lunatic.

    Like

  324. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Steve, fever doesn’t always result because of inflammation, it is typically the result of an infection and it isn’t always systemic inflammation with that infection, but with the effected area. And the swelling mentioned, if you read it again, is AT THE INJECTION SITE, not systemic inflammation such as would be the case with metabolic syndrome, celiac disease, allergies and other issues the mother has that are autoimmune in origin. A flu shot is hardly going to produce the kind of immune system inflammation that will cause the mother’s antibodies to attack the fetus, that happens due to pre-existing conditions in the mother prior to the pregnancy. The vaccines that may produce immune system inflammation are MMR/MMRV and the TDaP booster, both of which are contraindicated in pregnancy. I’m sure you would love to think you outsmarted me, but you haven’t, you simply don’t really understand the basics of immunology and probably even less pregnancy and how that all works together. You really should stop before you look really silly.

    The best sources for beneficial microbes are yogurt, sauerkraut, sea weed such as used in sushi, even pickles, anything that is fermented or has active, live cultures in it. I am not going to get into a debate with you regarding private growers of vegetables and dairy because it has nothing to do with vaccines. Let us keep your conspiracy theories regarding the US government and their secret plot to make everyone sick and eventually dead (yeah, because that makes a lot of sense) away from this discussion please.

    Like

  325. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Thank you for putting so many words in my mouth Lara. You really are a treat to converse with. I could actually stop replying and you could carry on the discussion single handedly!! Just so you know, yes sea weed and sushi are sources,, but yogurt and ANY other product that has been pasteurized or irradiated contains little to no microbial value because the processing destroys them. Only if they are added back in after the fact do they contain anything of value.

    PS: I LOVE the way you are now trying to paint me as a conspiracy theory nutcase!! It shows that you have very little to offer to counter my arguments save smear and innuendo. Again you highlight the weakness of your position!

    Like

  326. Lara Lohne
    August 25, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Steve, Here is a little information that might help you…
    Definition of conspiracy theory: A conspiracy theory alleges an event or events to be secretly influenced by a premeditated group or groups of powerful people or organizations working together.

    Using logic, we can surmise that someone who believes in and actively promotes conspiracy theories, is a conspiracy theorist. As to whether or not that person is a ‘nutcase’ I can’t say as I don’t have the training, or credentials to psychoanalyze anyone. I’m not trying to paint you as anything, you clearly believe these things, or you wouldn’t bring them up so often. In the long run, it doesn’t really matter what anyone believes the government may or may not be doing.

    You claim I put words in your mouth, but after rereading your comment and my own, I am not seeing it. You make a stab at something attempting to ‘catch me in a trap’ and I merely pointed out how you hadn’t caught me in anything because your assumption was flawed.

    So why would it be different ingesting yogurt that has been pasteurized and live cultures added back in as opposed to unpasteurized sources? I prefer to lessen my risk of tuberculosis, e coli, salmonella and any number of bad infections that could be contained in raw sources thanks. But hey, maybe I’m a nutcase too.

    I find it quite humorous how you try and make it out like I’m picking on you when I haven’t said anything other then counter what you have tried to ‘trap’ me in. That would be the equivalent of a spoiled child, who doesn’t get their way, throwing a tantrum. I merely stated you should keep your conspiracy theories out of this discussion because they have nothing to do with vaccines.

    Like

  327. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    I find several of your points quite interesting Lara. Firstly, you go through the rigamarole of defining a ‘conspiracy theorist’ to completely side step the fact that what I was talking about is accepted and public FACT and not theory. I think that this is referred to as addressing a ‘straw man’ because you have changed the point and then addressed your own version, thus avoiding the ACTUAL point made. As a point of fact, I also stated that I did NOT subscribe to conspiracy theory when is merely theory, only recognizing it as a fact when the facts became apparent.

    Secondly, I agree with you that it is irrelevant what people BELIEVE the government is doing or not. What IS important is what the government is ACTUALLY doing. What I pointed out is what the government is actually doing.

    Thirdly, I did inadvertently catch you out in an unintended trap. You can deny seeing it all day long. The fact remains that the CDC recommends flu vaccines which cause inflammation even though you point out that it should be counter indicative for pregnant women.

    As far as your fears about raw products go, the laws of nature which you have previously alluded to, helped us develop to consume raw products. The fact that you are now mentioning ‘adding in’ after removal through processing only after I mentioned it shows how poorly thought through your points are. You piggy back off of me to try and save face after making inane comments. In case you were unaware, the pasteurization process was pushed to prevent the spread of bovine tuberculosis even though bovine TB still remains in contaminated pasteurized milk because the destruction of the bovine TB virus requires 7 to 8 times longer elevated temperature than is actually used in the process today. All pasteurization does is reduce the level of hygiene required by commercial farmers because all of the pus and other contaminants that enter the milk through cheap and cruel commercial process are neutralized through the pasteurization. It has nothing to do with health, only profit. It is more expensive to produce raw milk because the farmer actually have to take care of the cows and actually grass and grain feed them instead of using cheap commercial feed.

    Like

  328. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Just as a side point Lara, the CDC recommendation for the flu vaccine also means that the CDC is recommending a thimerasol based vaccine for pregnant women. The fact that the mercury in thimerasol can pass the placental barrier is quite accepted now. I have seen estimates of 700% increases in miscarriage and 2,000% increases in still births after receiving the flu vaccine, but the CDC continue to recommend it unabated.

    Like

  329. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    “bovine TB virus”

    It’s a bacteria.

    Like

  330. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    I knew that was coming as soon as I clicked post. Doesn’t change the fact that current pasteurization does not destroy it….

    Like

  331. Steve Michaels
    August 25, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Let me even clarify, since I was writing on the hoof (pun intended):

    It is caused by the bacterium Mycobacterium bovis (M. bovis), which can also infect and cause TB in badgers, deer, goats, pigs, camelids (llamas and alcapas), dogs and cats, as well as many other mammals.

    Like

  332. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Perhaps in the future you will link to the paper that shows it is unaffected by pasteurization, you might make fewer mistakes.

    Like

  333. Kelly
    August 25, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Steve Michaels :
    I knew that was coming as soon as I clicked post. Doesn’t change the fact that current pasteurization does not destroy it….

    Yes, pasteurization does kill M. bovis. This is a case of a boy getting tuberculosis caused by M. bovis from drinking unpasteurized milk.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm

    Like

  334. lilady
    August 25, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Do *share* with us your citations for M.bovis and how it is not destroyed by pasterurization Steve.

    In the meantime…

    http://www.cdc.gov/Features/rawmilk/

    How about the consumption of raw milk and raw milk products and its effect on a pregnant woman and her developing fetus?

    http://www.fda.gov/food/resourcesforyou/healtheducators/ucm083320.htm

    Like

  335. lilady
    August 25, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    Kelly…I can’t get over the fact that Steve thinks M. bovis is a virus.

    Like

  336. Kelly
    August 25, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    Steve has made such mistakes before. Instead of acknowledging his complete ignorance in the topic, he tries to excuse it as “misspeaks”, like he did above. He’ll then try to defend his honor by trying to attack yours. It’s classic Steve.

    Like

  337. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    lilady, Mr. Michaels is infamous for his “misspeaks.” On classic is this one:

    Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but there are absolutely NO vaccines for bacterial infection.

    Like

  338. lilady
    August 25, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    Kelly and Chris: I love your explanations for Steve’s drivel…”misspeaks”. He still doesn’t know the difference between a virus and a bacterium.

    Like

  339. Kelly
    August 25, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    And the best part is in another post he makes this claim:

    I have admitted to being wrong when I am. I learn from my mistakes.

    Says a lot about Steve’s ability to learn, doesn’t it?

    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/08/23/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-vaccine-debate/#comment-13506

    Like

  340. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    He has several of those. Like this one:

    Now, to the main issue: can the pertussis vaccine cause viral shedding which could infect a baby?

    Well, as I noted before, he is forgets things, often.

    Like

  341. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Mucked up the block quote. The last sentence should not be in the quote.

    Like

  342. Karmen
    August 25, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    I keep coming back here to follow Ella, Joe and Steve. There may be more but those three names come to mind. Are you three on Facebook? I have made many friends on fb and we are organizing to stop this insanity. I agree with an above post that we have to get a proper study done to finally stop this vaccine program and the harm it is causing. It is way past time to do this. We all know that there is a way to bring this truth to light and that is a vaccinated versus never vaccinated study. Let’s make this happen. I am a part of a group of doctors, nurses, parents and various religious organizations that have united to secure exemptions. Anyone here interested in using your vast knowledge to make this happen? Karmen RN BSN

    Like

  343. Th1Th2
    August 25, 2012 at 10:51 pm

    The Obomsawin graphs also depict the fall of scarlet fever, implying that it disappeared without a vaccine. However, scarlet fever is not an infectious disease. It is a complication of untreated strep throat.

    Stupid is as stupid does. What else is new with the pro-vax?

    Like

  344. Gray Falcon
    August 25, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    Karmen, all three of them were caught lying, and in an extreme manner, grossly misrepresent our positions for their own purposes. Do you really think any right cause could justify such deceit?

    Like

  345. Karmen
    August 25, 2012 at 10:54 pm
  346. Th1Th2
    August 25, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    …all three of them were caught lying, and in an extreme manner, grossly misrepresent our positions for their own purposes.Do you really think any right cause could justify such deceit?

    This is fun. So Gray actually believes that “if someone with hep b sneezed on your child, guess what, she is exposed” and .“scarlet fever is not an infectious disease?

    Again, what else is new with the pro-vax?

    Like

  347. Karmen
    August 25, 2012 at 11:09 pm

    And this is a link referencing Crohns. http://www.crohns.org/map_food/dairy.htm

    Like

  348. Chris
    August 25, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Karmen, did you read the whole page? Did it mention TB? Why, yes it does! And it says:

    Initially the target organism was the bacterium that caused tuberculosis (Mycobacterium bovis or M. tuberculosis). In the 1950’s, the minimum pasteurization temperature was increased to destroy a slightly more heat-resistant organism that was associated with raw milk, Coxiella burnetti, which causes Q-fever.

    Oooh, it looks like bovine TB was the lightweight for heat resistance compared to other pathogens.

    It does also says:

    Even though the bacteria detected in the LPC are capable of surviving pasteurization, most are not capable of growing under refrigeration storage; they remain dormant, some may even die off. A few strains, especially some very heat-resistant, spore-forming bacteria, are capable of cold storage growth and, if allowed, will eventually grow and cause spoilage (see Psychrotrophic Spore Forming Bacteria).

    And:

    Most thermoduric psychrotrophs, especially the spore formers, tend to grow slower and/or later in milk products. Therefore they generally cause quality concerns later in shelf-life and only become predominant in the absence of faster growing post-pasteurization contaminants such as Pseudomonas spp.

    Now do tell us if those pathogens cause anything more dire than stinky dairy products (which I have been known to turn into tasty homemade ricotta cheese with a wee bit of vinegar and low heat).

    Like

  349. Nathan
    August 25, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    Steve: “bovine TB virus”
    Chris: “It’s a bacteria.”

    Adding that to Steve’s LOL list.

    Like

  350. Th1Th2
    August 25, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    Adding that to Steve’s LOL list.</blockquote.

    Don't forget Chris' infamous hypothetical pertussis vaccine every pro-vax is touting right now.

    Like

  351. lilady
    August 26, 2012 at 12:29 am

    @ Karmen: Went you “worked as a public health nurse”, heh, heh…didn’t you ever encounter a patient diagnosed with MAC (Mycobacterium Avium Complex), which are non-tubercular mycobacteria?

    Your link to an old article on Crohn’s disease and a possible link to M. avium, has not been proven:

    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/222664-overview

    Surely, you must *recall* your university classes in microbiology and physiology.

    Like

  352. Steve Michaels
    August 26, 2012 at 7:08 am

    I LOVE the deflections you all use. It really is a bit amusing. Your point about me saying virus instead of bacterium was immediately acknowledged and corrected. However, now you go on and on and on about it as if it somehow nullifies all the other points you are now choosing to ignore. The truth value of any given statement is not dependent upon any other statement. To try and imply this, which you are, is non sequitor reasoning. For example, if I say that a shot requires a needle and the needles are made of pastry, it would not follow that shots don’t require needles because I said that the needles were made of pastry. That is essentially what you are doing.

    Like

  353. Steve Michaels
    August 26, 2012 at 7:16 am

    I dug this little gem out about raw milk. It was written for a British Medical Journal back in 1938 before the full corruption of research by the growing pharma industry occurred and before pasteurization grew into the unassailable dogmatic position it now enjoys. Special note to the fact that children who drink clean raw milk contracted TB at much lower rates than those who drank pasteurized milk.

    Raw Milk Vs. Pasteurized Milk

    From Armchair Science, London
    April 1938

    There is no substitute for clean, raw milk as a food, so far as children are concerned. Science has not yet succeeded in providing, in the pasteurized variety, those essential qualities that are the only real foundation for a healthy child.

    Unfortunately, many grossly distorted statements are current regarding our milk supply. If we are to believe the protagonists of the Pasteurization-of-all-milk-at-all costs Party, raw milk is as good, or rather as bad, as rat poison-although as the Minister of Agriculture recently stated, “the human race existed long before Pasteur was heard of.”

    The process of pasteurization was debated in the House of Commons and the suggestion made that no raw milk should be sold for human consumption. This would mean installation of expensive machinery by every supplier, and if it should become compulsory there is little doubt that many small firms would shut down and the business pass in the hands of a few big dealers.

    If we are to be compelled to drink pasteurized milk, we should at least understand what pasteurization means. It set out to accomplish two things: Destruction of certain disease-carrying germs and the prevention of souring milk. These results are obtained by keeping the milk at a temperature of 145 degrees to 150 degrees F. for half an hour, at least, and then reducing the temperature to not more than 55 degrees F.

    It is undoubtedly beneficial to destroy dangerous germs, but pasteurization does more than this-it kills off harmless and useful germs alike, and by subjecting the milk to high temperatures, destroys some nutritious constituents.

    With regards to the prevention of souring; sour raw milk is very widely used. It is given to invalids, being easily digested, laxative in its properties, and not unpleasant to take. But, after pasteurization, the lactic acid bacilli are killed. The milk, in consequence, cannot become sour and quickly decomposes, while undesirable germs multiply very quickly.

    Pasteurization’s great claim to popularity is the widespread belief, fostered by its supporters, that tuberculosis in children is caused by the harmful germs found in raw milk. Scientists have examined and tested thousands of milk samples, and experiments have been carried out on hundreds of animals in regard to this problem of disease-carrying by milk. But the one vital fact that seems to have been completely missed is that it is CLEAN, raw milk that is wanted. If this can be guaranteed, no other form of food for children can, or should, be allowed to take its place.

    Dirty milk, of course, is like any other form of impure food — a definite menace. But Certified Grade A Milk, produced under Government supervision and guaranteed absolutely clean, is available practically all over the country and is the dairy-farmer’s answer to the pasteurization zealots.

    Recent figures published regarding the spread of tuberculosis by milk show, among other facts, that over a period of five years, during which time 70 children belonging to a special organization received a pint of raw milk daily. One case only of the disease occurred. During a similar period when pasteurized milk had been given, 14 cases were reported.

    Besides destroying part of the vitamin C contained in raw milk and encouraging growth of harmful bacteria, pasteurization turns the sugar of milk, known as lactose, into beta-lactose — which is far more soluble and therefore more rapidly absorbed in the system, with the result that the child soon becomes hungry again.

    Probably pasteurization’s worst offence is that it makes insoluable the major part of the calcium contained in raw milk. This frequently leads to rickets, bad teeth, and nervous troubles, for sufficient calcium content is vital to children; and with the loss of phosphorus also associated with calcium, bone and breain formation suffer serious setbacks.

    Pasteurization also destroys 20 percent of the iodine present in raw milk, causes constipation and generally takes from the milk its most vital qualities.

    In face of these facts-which are undeniable-what has the Pasteurization Party to say? Instead of compelling dealers to set up expensive machinery for turning raw milk into something that is definitely not what it sets out to be — a nutritious, health giving food — let them pass legislation making the dairy-farmers produce clean, raw milk — that is milk pure to drink with all its constituents unaltered.

    The above was published in Magazine Digest – June 1938
    Armchair Science is a British Medical Journal

    Like

  354. lilady
    August 26, 2012 at 9:09 am

    It certainly is a gem of an article Steve. A seventy-four year old article that you “dug out” of somewhere so that you could rant about the *Big Dairy Conspiracy*.

    Like

  355. August 26, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Lara Lohne :
    Aside from vaccinations just making more sense then suffering through a disease that has the high probability of killing you, since my youngest son was diagnosed with autism and the fact that he was not vaccinated prior to his symptoms manifesting

    You’re a FAKE, there’s no evidence of your story being real. You’re playing a character from a vaxhead fantasy novel to fool the audience and that’s your assigned role in this site.

    Like

  356. August 26, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Kelly :
    This is a case of a boy getting tuberculosis caused by M. bovis from drinking unpasteurized milk.
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm

    OK let’s look at the standards of “evidence”:

    Of 4,524 TB cases reported in NYC during 2001–2004, a total of 3,417 (76%) were culture-confirmed; 3,123 (91%) of these had spoligotype results, of which 35 (1%) were M. bovis. Twelve (34%) of the M. bovis cases were in children aged <15 years (median age: 5 years), and five of the 35 cases (14%) were in children aged <5 years (range: 1–4 years).

    Where’s the control group? Without knowing the incidence of M. bovis among healthy people, how can anyone claim it to be the cause?

    The testing of only TB affected people is a textbook example of selection bias and totally destroys the evidence value of all the report.

    Like

  357. August 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    74% of tuberculosis cases were not cultured-confirmed. So what is the criteria to claim that Mycobacertia is the culprit? pure germophobian belief, nothing else.

    Like

  358. Steve Michaels
    August 26, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    lilady :
    It certainly is a gem of an article Steve. A seventy-four year old article that you “dug out” of somewhere so that you could rant about the *Big Dairy Conspiracy*.

    So have you watched the video? Do you like the way mass production farms treat animals? Do you actually understand that they get away with this, in part, because pasteurization hides the results of their crimes? Is it a conspiracy? Have several parties worked together to create this disgusting practice? Is it still a theory when you see the evidence?

    I know this much…. I drink clean raw milk that is tested by the Food Standards Agency in the UK and is certified as TB free. I can go pet the cows that produce the milk I drink. I can assure you that they are happy cows and are not mistreated. This is true of virtually every clean raw milk producer. I will never give my custom to a mass production dairy again if I can avoid it.

    Like

  359. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Karmen, I would like to make it happen. Where can I go?

    Like

  360. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    @Gray
    You say I was, “caught lying in an extreme manner.” Please….about what exactly?

    You also said this about Biomedical treatments, “No, I just know that if the evidence shows something doesn’t work or is dangerous, I shouldn’t have to try it to find out.” I agree with you, but the treatments I mentioned do not fall under “doesn’t work” or “dangerous”. You don’t think killing off Candida that is over-grown in the body makes you feel better and makes you healthier? How about balancing the gaba and glutamates? Diet? It is so ridiculous that I can’t believe I am actually having this conversation. I think you forgot to take some of your “safe” medications and that is why some of your statements are so twisted.
    Here’s another quote from you I like, “No, I’m saying there’s no link between vaccination and autism. Unless you consider it acceptable to attribute arguments to an opponent that they haven’t made, in which case, how dare you suggest I sacrifice infants to Moloch!” This isn’t about you Gray, it’s about the kids. The vaccines are “sacrificing” the kids. I am doing my best to save my kid and others too.

    Like

  361. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    You say I was, “caught lying in an extreme manner.” Please….about what exactly?

    At no point did we ever claim that vaccines were without side effects, but you kept insisting that was our core argument. I suggest you learn before you comment again.

    You also said this about Biomedical treatments, “No, I just know that if the evidence shows something doesn’t work or is dangerous, I shouldn’t have to try it to find out.” I agree with you, but the treatments I mentioned do not fall under “doesn’t work” or “dangerous”. You don’t think killing off Candida that is over-grown in the body makes you feel better and makes you healthier? How about balancing the gaba and glutamates? Diet? It is so ridiculous that I can’t believe I am actually having this conversation. I think you forgot to take some of your “safe” medications and that is why some of your statements are so twisted.

    Do you have any evidence for your claims? Real, carefully tested evidence, not just a few testimonials? Are you aware that as a fallible human, you could simply be attributing normal development patterns to whatever treatment you’re using?

    Here’s another quote from you I like, “No, I’m saying there’s no link between vaccination and autism. Unless you consider it acceptable to attribute arguments to an opponent that they haven’t made, in which case, how dare you suggest I sacrifice infants to Moloch!” This isn’t about you Gray, it’s about the kids. The vaccines are “sacrificing” the kids. I am doing my best to save my kid and others too.

    My point was that if you think it’s acceptable to lie about what other people say, then why should I not be allowed to? Do you really think that if you have to lie about what others say, you can be trusted?

    Like

  362. Karmen
    August 27, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Joe, look me up on fb. My name there is Vaccineinjury K Wagler. Look forward to meeting you. We can get this stopped. And we will.

    Like

  363. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Karmen :
    Joe, look me up on fb. My name there is Vaccineinjury K Wagler. Look forward to meeting you. We can get this stopped. And we will.

    If your cause was just, would you really need to lie so much?

    Like

  364. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    @Gray….I didn’t keep insisting anything, and if I did….that was my lie? I kept asking the same question that nobody wanted to answer….if vaccines can and do cause injury, then why not cause a brain injury which causes Autism?

    Again, you are just ridiculous….do I have proof that eating healthy every day is healthy?

    Honestly, why are you even on this site? You don’t really want to have honest discussions.

    If I have to explain to you why Candida over growth is bad and getting rid of it is healthy, please check out the place that helps us with Candida…read up on it and get back to me.
    Here’s the link http://www.thecandidayeastanswer.com/page/page/2840877.htm

    Like

  365. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Karmen, thanks – will do!!

    Like

  366. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray….I didn’t keep insisting anything, and if I did….that was my lie? I kept asking the same question that nobody wanted to answer….if vaccines can and do cause injury, then why not cause a brain injury which causes Autism?

    We answered that. Those are two separate claims. Vaccines can, on rare occasions, cause injury, but to prove that they cause autism requires evidence for that statement. A specific statement, that is, “vaccines cause autism”, requires evidence for that statement. I shouldn’t have to explain that.

    Again, you are just ridiculous….do I have proof that eating healthy every day is healthy?

    No, you need to prove that your specific diet can do the things you specifically claim it can do. I should not have to explain that, either.

    Honestly, why are you even on this site? You don’t really want to have honest discussions.

    It would help if you learned basic logic.

    If I have to explain to you why Candida over growth is bad and getting rid of it is healthy, please check out the place that helps us with Candida…read up on it and get back to me.

    How about a peer-reviewed journal, and not somebody trying to sell me anti-candida products.

    Like

  367. August 27, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    to prove that they cause autism requires evidence for that statement. A specific statement, that is, “vaccines cause autism”, requires evidence for that statement. I shouldn’t have to explain that.

    In the context of (preventive) invasive treatment of healthy subjects, especially of those that can’t decide for themselves, the suspicion that arises from abundant case reports should be enough to ban the practice.

    Like

  368. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    @Gray
    Enough time and energy wasted on you Gray. Good day.

    Like

  369. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Enough time and energy wasted on you Gray. Good day.

    I accept your unconditional surrender. Thank you.

    Like

  370. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    @Joe, I gave you information about the genetics of autism that were found by Dr Courchesne. Apparently you still have yet to read about his research because it specifically speaks about prenatal brain development that results in autism as well as why children with autism are able to progress and develop as they get older. Because of the research he has done into the development of the autistic brain, it can stated emphatically there isn’t any way that a vaccine can cause ‘brain injury which causes Autism’, because the brain development that results in autism is determined prior to birth. There isn’t any way that a vaccine would be able to cause sudden brain growth that they see, universally, in people with autism, they just don’t work that way. The areas of the brain that are over grown and result in autism are from genes, and that brain growth begins prior to birth. Your question has been answered, you ignoring it doesn’t make it any less correct.

    Like

  371. August 27, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    No, you need to prove that your specific diet can do the things you specifically claim it can do. I should not have to explain that, either.

    It’s Evolution that proves diets, not tunel-vision lab tests that can’t control all the variables.

    Ground dwelling big apes are your closest evolutionary cousins. Look at what they eat in the wild and you’ll know what’s the optimal diet for man.

    Like

  372. August 27, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    @Joe, I gave you information about the genetics of autism

    Genetics can never explain the exponential rise of autism that correlates in time with a rise in the number of vaccine doses given to kids.

    Like

  373. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Chimpanzees are our closest genetic cousins, and they are omnivores.

    Like

  374. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    @Lara
    Sorry L, hadn’t had time to read it yet and I told you I would. Because I am open to read all research etc…and I won’t put all of my eggs in one basket. This is what you are doing, putting all of your eggs in one basket by basing your view on one individual. Feels a little “boxy” to me.

    And btw….why was your youngest son not vaccinated? All of your other children were – correct?

    Like

  375. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Thanks Putin! Please don’t wate your time with Gray….he chooses to debate just for the fun of it and not care about the discussion at hand. Waste of your time.

    Like

  376. August 27, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Chimpanzees are our closest genetic cousins, and they are omnivores.

    Not quite on target, they eat raw foods, the bulk of their dieat being fruit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_chimpanzee#Diet_and_foraging

    “…Most of the chimpanzee’s diet is made up of fruit. It prefers fruit above all other food items and will even eat them when they are not abundant.”

    This is ot by far the diet of modern man, who loves to conjure up “demons” or “viruses” to blame for his lifestyle diseases.

    Like

  377. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Chimpanzees are our closest genetic cousins, and they are omnivores.

    On an interesting side note, my mother claims that modern humans have a diet that depends on the use of outside energy to cook and prepare it, and can no longer survive without fire and tools of some sort. She also noted the reason cooking was developed was so that one did not have to spend as much time chewing and digesting everything.

    Like

  378. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Joe :
    Thanks Putin! Please don’t wate your time with Gray….he chooses to debate just for the fun of it and not care about the discussion at hand. Waste of your time.

    Again, an accusation without evidence. I debate you to keep you from spreading misinformation. You still have yet to respond to my requests for evidence for your specific accusations.

    Like

  379. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    My youngest was not vaccinated due to lack of medical coverage for him because my employer covered me without premium but I didn’t make enough to add him.

    It is not only Dr Courchesne’s research that I am basing my conclusions on, but other research that has also been done and also my own personal experiences. Mine and those of other parents who didn’t vaccinate and their children also developed autism.

    I understand the need to blame something other then your own genetic material. I accept it easier maybe because research also shows us boys are 4 times more likely then girls to have autism, and parental age plays a significant role also and both my partner and I were over 35 when my son was conceived.

    I’ve long asserted that if we are going to blame vaccines for autism, then we should also attribute it to the feminist movement in equal proportion as well, as that, more then anything else, has caused people to push back starting their family until they are in their 30s, etc. But of course given the new research that is showing even people who were children 20, 30 and 40 years ago, and are only now being diagnosed correctly with autism, when we take those new numbers and compare them to numbers of children diagnosed today, they are not as far off as originally thought, it’s still 1% of the population of adults who have ASD, even though they were overlooked at children because our knowledge of autism was much limited when they were children and the diagnostic criteria has become much more focused on what constitutes the common traits of an autistic individual. There is a lot of evidence out there to refute the vaccines equal autism claim. I can see it, why can’t you?

    Like

  380. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    @Gray
    Candida gives off up to 70 different toxins that poison the body and affect the mind. It not only feeds off the food we eat but it also feeds off of its own waste making it stronger. When die off occurs all of these toxins are released and the other yeast actually feed off of the die off making it stronger. They grow roots through to our blood glucose and feed so diet alone or fasting cannot get rid of it because it still has a supply of fuel. Diet combined with a good program to kill the Candida first, then repair and add good bacteria will create better outcomes.
    The 70 different toxins like ethanol and acetaldehyde get released into your blood stream and not only cause a host of problems in the human body, but also weaken the immune system. Ethanol is an alcohol and acetaldehyde is related to formaldehyde. These toxins disrupt normal functioning of the bodies systems. It can also interfere and mimic estrogen, thyroxin and other hormones in the body thus creating hormonal imbalances and problems with the thyroid or other glands. These toxins can also overload the liver and suppress normal liver functions. It releases metabolites that are toxic and interfere with biochemical processes. The effects on the nervous system can cause abnormal behavior and memory loss. It can alter the central nervous system causing distorted thinking, mood swings, depression and emotional disturbances.

    Like

  381. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    @Lara
    Guess what…I didn’t blame anything…..I set out to find out what happened to my son…and all trails lead to the vaccine. That’s my experience. I don’t discredit your experience, so please don’t discredit mine and others who know that a vaccine triggered Autism.

    Like

  382. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Candida gives off up to 70 different toxins that poison the body and affect the mind. It not only feeds off the food we eat but it also feeds off of its own waste making it stronger. When die off occurs all of these toxins are released and the other yeast actually feed off of the die off making it stronger. They grow roots through to our blood glucose and feed so diet alone or fasting cannot get rid of it because it still has a supply of fuel. Diet combined with a good program to kill the Candida first, then repair and add good bacteria will create better outcomes.
    The 70 different toxins like ethanol and acetaldehyde get released into your blood stream and not only cause a host of problems in the human body, but also weaken the immune system. Ethanol is an alcohol and acetaldehyde is related to formaldehyde. These toxins disrupt normal functioning of the bodies systems. It can also interfere and mimic estrogen, thyroxin and other hormones in the body thus creating hormonal imbalances and problems with the thyroid or other glands. These toxins can also overload the liver and suppress normal liver functions. It releases metabolites that are toxic and interfere with biochemical processes. The effects on the nervous system can cause abnormal behavior and memory loss. It can alter the central nervous system causing distorted thinking, mood swings, depression and emotional disturbances.

    [citation needed]

    Like

  383. August 27, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    I understand the need to blame something other then your own genetic material.

    Again, Lora the shill… how can genetic material explain an exponential rise in autism that co-occurs with a rise in the nr. of vaccine doses administered to kids?

    Unless non-autistic are qutting reproductin, your explanation makes no sense.

    Like

  384. August 27, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    On an interesting side note, my mother claims that modern humans have a diet that depends on the use of outside energy to cook and prepare it, and can no longer survive without fire and tools of some sort.

    The need to cook does not respond to an imperative of of man’s physiological design, but to constraints imposed by an environment different to the one where the species evolved.

    However, even in such constraints peolles such as the eskimos went on eating raw foods. They sisn’t know chronic diseases before they met the white man and adopted its self-destructing eating habts.

    The price to pay for living outside of the savanna is chronical illness and early death, However, now we have the means to correct the situation and regain our original health.

    Like

  385. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Nice cherry picking again putin. You might want to reread my comment because you missed a huge part of it at the end there. By the way, my name is not Lora, and I’m not a shill and regardless of what you may think, you are mistaken about a great many things. You actually help to prove our position about how deficient to actual science (and in your case morality and respect) many in the anti-vaccine groups are.

    Like

  386. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    @Gray
    I don’t need a citation for general knowledge. You can find the info anywhere. Pleaseeeee

    Like

  387. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I don’t need a citation for general knowledge. You can find the info anywhere. Pleaseeeee

    It was, at one point, general knowledge that the balance of the four humors regulated health. Now, where is your evidence?

    Like

  388. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    @Lara

    Did you say, “My son is autistic. He will be four years old in March. He is the youngest of six children and the only one who has autism. Yet of all my children, he is the only one that DID NOT get his vaccines on schedule. His state medicaid was canceled when he was one, the last immunization he got was at 6 months (until after the developmental delays were well documented and he began the formal autism evaluation. He was going to be attending the Early Childhood Special Education preschool and that required he be immunized.)”?

    Just checking to see if this was you….I found it on the AofA site from Feb of 2011. Is your name Lara Lohne?

    Let me know if this is you….because in the quote it says “last immunization he got was at 6 months”

    Like

  389. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    @Gray
    I guess that means if I povided a citation on Yeast, it could change next week anyway right? Yeast is a Beast! That’s what like to say.

    Like

  390. August 27, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Nice cherry picking again putin. You might want to reread my comment because you missed a huge part of it at the end there. By the way, my name is not Lora, and I’m not a shill and regardless of what you may think, you are mistaken about a great many things. You actually help to prove our position about how deficient to actual science (and in your case morality and respect) many in the anti-vaccine groups are.

    You’ve been caught with your pants down and you’re evading the obviuos question

    How can genetic material explain an exponential rise in autism that co-occurs with a rise in the nr. of vaccine doses administered to kids?

    Unless non-autistic are qutting reproducing, your explanation makes no sense.

    Like

  391. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I guess that means if I povided a citation on Yeast, it could change next week anyway right? Yeast is a Beast! That’s what like to say.

    That wasn’t even a humanoid response.

    Like

  392. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I guess that means if I povided a citation on Yeast, it could change next week anyway right? Yeast is a Beast! That’s what like to say.

    Let me explain more clearly. Just because something is “general knowledge” does not make it correct. Humans are still fallible, one must test ideas to see if they work. No such testing was done for the four humors, it was simply assumed to work because everyone thought it made sense. Modern medicine has been tested extensively and by multiple independent researchers, that’s how we know it works, not just “common sense”.
    Also, substituting slogans for evidence is the type of thing only the lowest of the low do.

    Like

  393. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    @Gray
    I am soooo low because I like to shout “Yeast is a beast?” I guess I am loooooowwwww. If you want to know more about Candida….Google it. I’m not doing your research for you. I’ve done mine.

    Like

  394. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    @Gray
    And I can assure you that I am a live human being or humanoid. You’re too funny Gray.

    Like

  395. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I am soooo low because I like to shout “Yeast is a beast?” I guess I am loooooowwwww.

    Yes you are. Sloganeering is the tool of the deceitful and dishonorable.

    If you want to know more about Candida….Google it. I’m not doing your research for you. I’ve done mine.

    Sorry, you made the claim, you provide the evidence. That’s the rule in science.

    Like

  396. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Do you have a point to make Joe?

    Like

  397. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    @Gray
    “Sloganeering is the tool of the deceitful and dishonorable.” It’s my own silly tune….it doesn’t make me deceitful or dishonorable. Lighten up Gray.

    Like

  398. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @Lara
    No point….just a question. Is that your comment or that of somebody else? I don’t know and that is why I am asking.

    Like

  399. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    “Sloganeering is the tool of the deceitful and dishonorable.” It’s my own silly tune….it doesn’t make me deceitful or dishonorable. Lighten up Gray.

    You gave it to me instead of evidence. That is neither honest nor honorable.

    Like

  400. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Lighten up Gray

    Like

  401. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    @Gray
    You want evidence that having too much Candida in the body is not healthy?

    Like

  402. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    You want evidence that having too much Candida in the body is not healthy?Yes, I do.

    Like

  403. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    @Gray
    So far off the track such a silly request.

    Like

  404. August 27, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Gray must be in one of “those days” claiming candidiasis is good for your body…

    I bet she feels an irresistible urge to inject unproven bio-junk in their kids, just in case the protection salespich is right. It all happens during “those days”.

    Like

  405. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    I think it’s clear

    Joe :
    @Gray
    So far off the track such a silly request.

    If it’s so silly, then I’m sure you won’t have any problems fulfilling it, right?

    Like

  406. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    @Gray
    Only for you Gray – I wouldn’t do it for anybody else. I’ll get right on it.

    Like

  407. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Joe, since both my first and my last names are not at all common, I believe you know the answer to your question already, therefore I restate, “Do you have a point to make?”

    Like

  408. Th1Th2
    August 27, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    So Lara’s autistic son was vaccinated after all. Geez.

    Reminded me on how Lawrence was able to diagnose his child as not autistic simply because his son according to him was “vastly advanced compared to their peers in virtually all levels of mental and physical capabilities.”

    I call that a red flag.

    Like

  409. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    @Lara
    Don’t understand….you did make the comment or you didn’t? Again I have no point….only asking you for an answer.

    Like

  410. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Joe, I refuse to believe you are really that dim. You know the answer already, you are trying to set me up for something so let’s skip the BS and get straight to the punch line, shall me? What point are you trying to make?

    Like

  411. Joe
    August 27, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Lara, I still don’t undersatnd and am not setting you up. If your answer is yes and you made the comment, then it appears to me you have been lying to us.

    “His state medicaid was canceled when he was one, the last immunization he got was at 6 months (until after the developmental delays were well documented and he began the formal autism evaluation.”

    Apparently your son had vaccinations up until he was 6 months???

    Like

  412. Steve Michaels
    August 27, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I don’t need a citation for general knowledge. You can find the info anywhere. Pleaseeeee

    It was, at one point, general knowledge that the balance of the four humors regulated health. Now, where is your evidence?

    It was once ‘scientifically proven’ knowledge that Vioxx was safe. How did that one work out for you?

    Like

  413. Steve Michaels
    August 27, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Joe :
    @Gray
    I guess that means if I povided a citation on Yeast, it could change next week anyway right? Yeast is a Beast! That’s what like to say.

    Let me explain more clearly. Just because something is “general knowledge” does not make it correct. Humans are still fallible, one must test ideas to see if they work. No such testing was done for the four humors, it was simply assumed to work because everyone thought it made sense. Modern medicine has been tested extensively and by multiple independent researchers, that’s how we know it works, not just “common sense”.
    Also, substituting slogans for evidence is the type of thing only the lowest of the low do.

    So why do you grant such infallibility to the likes of Offitt? Your claim about ‘independent’ researchers is dubious given the ubiquitous influence of the allopathic paradigm which is accepted by the likes of you without question.

    Like

  414. Steve Michaels
    August 27, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Joe :
    Lara, I still don’t undersatnd and am not setting you up. If your answer is yes and you made the comment, then it appears to me you have been lying to us.
    “His state medicaid was canceled when he was one, the last immunization he got was at 6 months (until after the developmental delays were well documented and he began the formal autism evaluation.”
    Apparently your son had vaccinations up until he was 6 months???

    Good job in catching her out on that one. Lara has actually been a guest blogger on this site, and probably others, promoting a bulls*** story.

    Like

  415. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Steve Michaels :
    It was once ‘scientifically proven’ knowledge that Vioxx was safe. How did that one work out for you?

    It was scientists and evidence that proved that Vioxx was harmful, not a guy on the Internet who yelled about how obvious things are.

    So why do you grant such infallibility to the likes of Offitt? Your claim about ‘independent’ researchers is dubious given the ubiquitous influence of the allopathic paradigm which is accepted by the likes of you without question.

    Offit is not the only vaccine researcher. He merely compiled existing evidence. You just make assertions and wonder why nobody believes you.

    Like

  416. Gray Falcon
    August 27, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    Good job in catching her out on that one. Lara has actually been a guest blogger on this site, and probably others, promoting a bulls*** story.

    There’s a simple explanation. Developmental delays appeared before the vaccines were given. Would you like me to explain to you the concepts of “before” and “after”?

    Like

  417. Th1Th2
    August 27, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Offit is not the only vaccine researcher.

    Funny how you suddenly demoted Offit from being a promoter to a researcher.

    Like

  418. Lara Lohne
    August 27, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    And there is the ‘set up’. I love it when you guys go digging for dirt and come up with nothing. I haven’t lied about anything, I said my son didn’t receive any vaccines prior to the onset of symptoms. Since he showed symptoms from birth (even though I didn’t recognize them as autism at the time) I have not lied about anything. He was showing signs the day we came home from the hospital and they became more pronounced as he got older. His first vaccines were given at two months of age, and then at four months and then at six months. Then he didn’t receive anything again until he was nearly 3 and was already involved in Early Intervention. The vaccines did not make him the way he is, as his symptoms predate all his vaccines. He also did not have any reactions to any vaccines he did receive, therefore, Steve, nobody caught me in anything.

    Like

  419. Th1Th2
    August 27, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    There’s a simple explanation. Developmental delays appeared before the vaccines were given. Would you like me to explain to you the concepts of “before” and “after”?

    Like what developmental delays are attributed to autism before HBV vaccination? “Congratulations, it’s a boy and he’s autistic”, at least that’s what our clinician Gray is telling us.

    Like

  420. Th1Th2
    August 27, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Don’t lie about the HBV vaccine. Oh you just did.

    Like

  421. Joe
    August 28, 2012 at 12:15 am

    @Lara
    First of all….what set up? I asked very politely and gave you the benefit of the doubt. I didn’t accuse you; I asked if that was your comment several times. For some reason you wouldn’t give me a direct answer and instead spoke in riddles. You made more of a deal out of it, and set it up, than I did.

    2nd – I didn’t go digging for dirt. I wanted to check out the AofA site and then remembered your conversation about them threatening you. I did a Google search on Lara and AofA and it pulled up two threads and that’s how I found your comments. BTW….I didn’t see any threatening comments to you.

    3rd – You did lie or you mislead at the very least. Here is your quote from the very first post, “since my youngest son was diagnosed with autism and the fact that he was not vaccinated prior to his symptoms manifesting, and the number of anti-vaccine people who are trying to convince the world, even without any science to back them up, that vaccines are the cause of autism, I feel an obligation to let people know about my son. He has autism, he was not vaccinated prior to us realizing what was going on (even though looking back I can now see the signs of it from birth) and it’s important that people are aware of that.” That definitely makes it sound like your son was diagnosed with Autism long before you gave him any vaccines. Why don’t you mention he was vaccinated at two months old instead of letting people assume it was much, much later….like you know, about the age they can actually give a diagnosis?

    If that doesn’t convince you that you are misleading, to say the least, how about this comment from post 379, “My youngest was not vaccinated due to lack of medical coverage for him because my employer covered me without premium but I didn’t make enough to add him.” Ahhh you just said he was vaccinated at two months old??

    4th – How about this comment, “I haven’t lied about anything, I said my son didn’t receive any vaccines prior to the onset of symptoms. Since he showed symptoms from birth (even though I didn’t recognize it as Autism)” You can’t diagnose Autism before two months of age. If your son showed symptoms of something, it could have been for a lot of things. For instance, it could have been signs that your son had a very sensitive little body. It’s quite possible that by giving him vaccinations at 2, 4, and 6 months, it triggered his Autism because he was sensitive and couldn’t handle the toxic overload. Or it is possible that your son was born with Autism (the non regressive kind). Who really knows? But my point is, I don’t think you should be qualifying yourself as the Mother of a son with Autism without vaccines when truly your son did have vaccines starting at the age of 2 months. If you want to tell your story, then why don’t you include that he had vaccines at 2 months of age? That would be the most honest. Your story now, as is, is very, very misleading.

    Like

  422. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 1:00 am

    Question for Joe: About what time can I expect your evidence for the dangers of candida?

    Like

  423. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 1:04 am

    For that matter: Joe, what evidence do you have that autism cannot be diagnosed before two months? And don’t say that it’s “common sense”, common sense was what told us the Earth was flat.

    Like

  424. Steve Michaels
    August 28, 2012 at 3:22 am

    Gray Falcon :

    Steve Michaels :
    It was once ‘scientifically proven’ knowledge that Vioxx was safe. How did that one work out for you?

    It was scientists and evidence that proved that Vioxx was harmful, not a guy on the Internet who yelled about how obvious things are.

    So why do you grant such infallibility to the likes of Offitt? Your claim about ‘independent’ researchers is dubious given the ubiquitous influence of the allopathic paradigm which is accepted by the likes of you without question.

    Offit is not the only vaccine researcher. He merely compiled existing evidence. You just make assertions and wonder why nobody believes you.

    Ummmm, Not really Gray. The FDA declared Vioxx safe and effective based on ‘scientific research’. Only when the bodies started piling up and the lawsuits started getting filed did the ‘science’ suddenly discover that it was wrong. It was guys on the internet and other media outlets that started to piece together the puzzle that proved that the original research was, at best wrong, or at worst fraudulent.

    Like

  425. Lara Lohne
    August 28, 2012 at 4:10 am

    Joe, I am not fooled by your display of false innocence. If I had lied and said it wasn’t me, you would have called me a liar. Since it’s obvious that it was my comment, you were being deliberately obtuse. You’re acting like I’ve done something to betray you. I’ve been involved in this debate, from both sides, my entire life, anti-vaccine before I had my own children and pro-vaccine after finding out, more then personal experience had taught me, about vaccine preventable diseases. You can look all you like for me making false statements, but I didn’t ever say anything that was not correct.

    My son did not have “a very sensitive little body”. He was actually quite robust. The symptoms of autism, what I recognize them as now, were then just things that made him a very challenging baby. He ate well, he grew well, he was meeting developmental milestones well ahead of where he should have been, until the age of 14 months when he started to regress. The challenges he had were there from the start. Please remember, I had 5 neurotypical children before him, three of which were boys. Do you really think I didn’t have the experience to tell something was off with him from the start?

    You see my statements as misleading, which I totally expect from you anyway. But they are not. Yes he had some vaccines, and he was developing normally, other then his oddities that I couldn’t figure out. It wasn’t until the regression began and other oddities cropped up that we were able to put all the pieces together and get a grasp on what it was. You also forget that he did not have even mild reactions to the vaccines he received. There was no change in him after receiving the vaccines, he continued to grow and develop, until he was 14 months old. Even then he had some things he continued to develop in, but the obvious signs of autism began to emerge then; toe walking, fixating on parts of objects, losing his words, spinning everything and rocking became more intense, but he was always a rocker, one of the things from birth that was odd. Rocking in my arms, or swinging in a baby swing were the only things that would always sooth him.

    Had I known what I know now when he was born, I would have watched his development more closely. The only thing I knew was that he was much more challenging then any baby I had ever known. But as far as I could tell, until it became obvious, he was normal, above average in fact, just with a stubborn, temperamental streak. That’s what we thought anyway. We thought he was being purposefully willful, even as a newborn, he seemed to fight, unyielding, a great many things. Little did I know that most likely the things he was fighting us on were due to sensory issues and we had no way of knowing that and forced it on him anyway. I wish I had known then what I know now. When I think about the agony he must have been going through, it must have been torture for him, and I did it, and I can’t help but feel horrible about it now. If I knew anything about autism and sensory issues, I might have been able to bring it up during one of his early well baby visits and possibly testing could have begun so much sooner. But he already had no medical coverage by the time we knew something was really wrong.

    If a baby is not robust, they will require more medical attention then another child who is robust. They would not allow the baby to be taken home until that child was robust. There was nothing in his physical development that raised any alarms, nor in his gross motor skills or his cognitive development, at least during the time he was able to see a pediatrician. The issues all appeared to be behavioral, temperament and we took that to be just a personality quirk. Well, he’s definitely quirky, and then some. So get off your high horse, because autism is there form the start, no vaccine could cause a brain to develop prenatally like it does in all people with autism. Vaccines don’t work retrospectively. By the way, please refrain from Googling me in the future, I already have one crazy lady stalking me that way, I don’t need anyone else doing it.

    Like

  426. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 7:57 am

    Steve Michaels, are you familiar with Google? Because I actually looked up the history of Vioxx online, and according to that, Vioxx was withdrawn due to research done by Merck.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

    Like

  427. August 28, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Steve Michaels, are you familiar with Google? Because I actually looked up the history of Vioxx online, and according to that, Vioxx was withdrawn due to research done by Merck.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

    The late study was obviously done to save face, since the Lancet proved that enough information on cardiovascular risk was available to grant withdrawal several years earler. Merck of course could not have known this.

    The Lancet published an editorial which condemned both Merck and the FDA for the continued availability of rofecoxib from 2000 until the recall.

    Trusting the pharma industry is like trusting a used car salesman. It’s a market of lemons where the manufacturers hide what they know until the public finds out, and then backpedal.

    Like

  428. Th1Th2
    August 28, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Since he showed symptoms from birth (even though I didn’t recognize it as Autism)

    And

    He ate well, he grew well, he was meeting developmental milestones well ahead of where he should have been, until the age of 14 months when he started to regress.

    L-I-A-R.

    Like

  429. August 28, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Lara Lohne :Yes he had some vaccines, and he was developing normally, other then his oddities that I couldn’t figure out. It wasn’t until the regression began and other oddities cropped up that we were able to put all the pieces together and get a grasp on what it was.

    If true, then your presence here is straighforward to explain.

    You were anti-vaccines but betrayed your instinct, causing irreversible harm to your child. You can’t forgive yourself for that, so your pro-vaccine militancy is just a way of DENIAL.

    Yourt child regresses after the vaccines at the age of 14 months, then your need for DENIAL has forced you perpetrate revisionism your child’s history. You rationalized its previous behaviour as “odd” pretending autism was always tehre and it wasn’t your fault.

    Like

  430. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    putinreloaded :
    The late study was obviously done to save face, since the Lancet proved that enough information on cardiovascular risk was available to grant withdrawal several years earler. Merck of course could not have known this.
    The Lancet published an editorial which condemned both Merck and the FDA for the continued availability of rofecoxib from 2000 until the recall.
    Trusting the pharma industry is like trusting a used car salesman. It’s a market of lemons where the manufacturers hide what they know until the public finds out, and then backpedal.

    Thank you for the assistance, putin. From now on, if anyone tries to convince us that they can’t give peer-reviewed work because they’re in the pocket of big Pharma, I can just tell them that it was the Lancet, the biggest and best-funded of the mainstream medicine journals, who put out the expose on Vioxx, and that therefore, the mainstream medical journals are independent and can be trusted. And I can tell everyone you agree. Thanks!

    Like

  431. lilady
    August 28, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    @ Gray Falcon: I have a theory about this troll. I think his mother told him that the reason he has an anti-social personality disorder, is a pathological liar, is delusional…is because he was “vaccine-damaged”. His mother lied to him.

    Like

  432. August 28, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Thank you for the assistance, putin. From now on, if anyone tries to convince us that they can’t give peer-reviewed work because they’re in the pocket of big Pharma, I can just tell them that it was the Lancet, the biggest and best-funded of the mainstream medicine journals, who put out the expose on Vioxx, and that therefore, the mainstream medical journals are independent and can be trusted. And I can tell everyone you agree. Thanks!

    Things remain black or white for the vaxheads, after all, you can’t become one unless your ability to handle the multiple factors of reality is seriously impaired.

    Like

  433. August 28, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    lilady :
    @ Gray Falcon: I have a theory about this troll. I think his mother told him that the reason he has an anti-social personality disorder, is a pathological liar, is delusional…is because he was “vaccine-damaged”. His mother lied to him.

    Actually your theory is that anti-vaccine people impersonate the worst anti-child sentiments, while those deliberately exposing healthy kids to unpredictable pharmacological damage are the supreme expression of child love.

    Like

  434. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    putinreloaded :
    Things remain black or white for the vaxheads, after all, you can’t become one unless your ability to handle the multiple factors of reality is seriously impaired.

    What I just provided was actually a counter-argument to your black and white views, actually. If vaccinations are, in fact, hazardous, why hasn’t it been reported in the mainstream journals? And now you can’t say that they’ve been payed off, you’ve just proved that they can and will bite the hand that feeds them.

    Like

  435. August 28, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    If vaccinations are, in fact, hazardous, why hasn’t it been reported in the mainstream journals?

    It’s been reported dozens of times, you’re in denial. I’ve brought up several studies in this forum warning about the dangers of vaccines.

    Example:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

    nfant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?

    “..,is it possible that some nations are requiring too many vaccines for their infants and the additional vaccines are a toxic burden on their health? Are some deaths that are listed within the 130 infant mortality death categories really deaths that are associated with over-vaccination? Are some vaccine-related deaths hidden within the death tables?”

    “Since some infants may be more susceptible to SIDS shortly after being vaccinated, and babies vaccinated against diarrhea died from pneumonia at a statistically higher rate than non-vaccinated babies, there is plausible biologic and causal evidence that the observed correlation between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants should not be dismissed as ecological bias.”

    Published in Human & Experimental Toxicology.

    Like

  436. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    For those who wonder if putinreloaded has a point (both of you), here’s an in-depth review of that paper:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/

    Like

  437. Th1Th2
    August 28, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    You can’t diagnose Autism before two months of age.

    Gray Falcon can.

    Like

  438. Steve Michaels
    August 28, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    For those who wonder if putinreloaded has a point (both of you), here’s an in-depth review of that paper:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/

    Your citation is essentially a blog entry from a known vaccination shill. As Orac would say, not a promising start. Virtually all of Orac’s links are too his own or other blogs or google searches. In Orac’s words, “Even less promising.”

    How dare you accuse people with whom you disagree of using blogs and unsound sources as evidence (when they are not) and then link to this trash. Read it. It is ad hominem after ad hominem after accusations of conflicts of interest for $2,500 donations. You refuse to see a conflict of interest in Paul Offitt when he pockets MILLIONS of dollars in vaccine royalties and takes stipends and speaking fees as an unbiased professional from his Chair at CHoP which is funded by Merck!

    Your credibility, which was already shot, actually went down even more with this one!

    Like

  439. Joe
    August 28, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    @Lara
    False innocence? You’re the one who has issues. I was giving you the benefit of doubt in case somebody was setting you up. Also, there wasn’t a last name…just Lara….so how would I know?

    You can’t claim your son has Autism and was never vaccinated….it is simply not true. That is very disingenuous. If you want to tell your story and say you think your son had signs of Autism before 2 months of age and then he was vaccinated at 2, 4, and 6 months….that would be much more honest. The way you have been stating it is misleading and dishonest and you know it. You are very careful how you word everything so as not to mention vaccines at 2 months.

    Also, you can’t have it both ways….”Since he showed symptoms from birth (even though I didn’t recognize it as Autism)” and….”He ate well, he grew well, he was meeting developmental milestones well ahead of where he should have been, until the age of 14 months when he started to regress.” We had this discussion before about regression…..was he healthy and regressed or was he having issues since birth? Which one?

    Why did you decide not to get the Hep B vaccine at birth?

    Like

  440. Joe
    August 28, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    @Gray
    You guys are always getting on everybody for not having the proper, credible citations….is Wikipedia acceptable on this site? I’m sure Chris would be all over you if you tried to pass that off on her.

    Like

  441. August 28, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    For those who wonder if putinreloaded has a point (both of you), here’s an in-depth review of that paper:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/

    Since when is sciencblogs.com a mainstream scientific journal? that was your requirement, remember?

    The double standards of the vaxheads exposed once again!

    Like

  442. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Steve Michaels :
    Your citation is essentially a blog entry from a known vaccination shill. As Orac would say, not a promising start. Virtually all of Orac’s links are too his own or other blogs or google searches. In Orac’s words, “Even less promising.”
    How dare you accuse people with whom you disagree of using blogs and unsound sources as evidence (when they are not) and then link to this trash. Read it. It is ad hominem after ad hominem after accusations of conflicts of interest for $2,500 donations. You refuse to see a conflict of interest in Paul Offitt when he pockets MILLIONS of dollars in vaccine royalties and takes stipends and speaking fees as an unbiased professional from his Chair at CHoP which is funded by Merck!
    Your credibility, which was already shot, actually went down even more with this one!

    If you don’t point out anything specifically wrong or false about Orac’s account in your next three posts, I will assume that you have no argument with what he said by default. For e

    Like

  443. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    You guys are always getting on everybody for not having the proper, credible citations….is Wikipedia acceptable on this site? I’m sure Chris would be all over you if you tried to pass that off on her.

    Wikipedia has citations. And by the way, when can I expect that evidence for candida?

    Like

  444. August 28, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Joe :
    @Gray
    You guys are always getting on everybody for not having the proper, credible citations….is Wikipedia acceptable on this site? I’m sure Chris would be all over you if you tried to pass that off on her.

    Wikipedia has citations. And by the way, when can I expect that evidence for candida?

    Wikipedia, dimwit!

    Like

  445. Lara Lohne
    August 28, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    @Joe, since my son is fully vaccinated it would be silly for me to say he was never vaccinated. I feel you are fixating on details that in the long run don’t matter. All I’ve ever said is he was not vaccinated prior to his symptoms of autism manifesting. The obvious symptoms that led us to think autism began only after he began to regress and his regression did not coincide with any vaccination, but it happened at the time when regression happens in children who have autism.

    Since most children with autism tend to be first born children, how would any of their parents know if they were developing normally until their regression began? Well, my son was displaying signs of autism from birth, but he was still healthy, strong and growing and developing normally until he regressed. You aren’t the only person with a child with autism so don’t try and tell me he can’t display symptoms from birth and regress at the same time, because he can, and he did and other experts have said it’s normal so I am not wrong when I say that. What would you call it when a newborn appears to be fighting you? Staring at words, not pictures, in the books you try to read him? Staring at lights and rocking, constantly rocking. He was happy, for the most part, when he wasn’t fighting something, like sleep, or putting on clothing. For the record, he is still healthy, strong and growing and also progressing in his skills. The most important part, and his therapists tell me it’s obvious, he is happy and well loved.

    When this all came out to his therapists, developmental pediatrician and psychologist, during his evaluation, they all told me it was early signs of autism and yes, usually children do display some symptoms from the start. Most parents don’t recognize them because they can appear very subtle, and the fact that I did was most likely because I’ve had so many kids before him. Not all children regress, but regression just means a loss of acquired skills, it doesn’t mean that is when autism hit them over the head. If you really think there is either regression and no signs before that, or signs from birth and no regression, you don’t know much about autism. That is why I recommended you read Dr. Courchesne, which I’m guessing you still haven’t done. Until you do, I feel like I’m a little ahead of you in the autism knowledge curve, so I can’t, in good conscience continue to converse with you until you are up to speed. Have a good week.

    Like

  446. August 28, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Most parents don’t recognize them because they can appear very subtle

    You are rationalizing a posteriori, whích is a subtle way of fooling yourself but not others.

    Your guilt is eating you from the inside, so you WANT to see autism in your kid before the vaccines, when there wasn’t any, in order to soothe the guilt.

    Like

  447. Gray Falcon
    August 28, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    I should poin

    Steve Michaels :

    Your citation is essentially a blog entry from a known vaccination shill. As Orac would say, not a promising start. Virtually all of Orac’s links are too his own or other blogs or google searches. In Orac’s words, “Even less promising.”
    How dare you accuse people with whom you disagree of using blogs and unsound sources as evidence (when they are not) and then link to this trash. Read it. It is ad hominem after ad hominem after accusations of conflicts of interest for $2,500 donations. You refuse to see a conflict of interest in Paul Offitt when he pockets MILLIONS of dollars in vaccine royalties and takes stipends and speaking fees as an unbiased professional from his Chair at CHoP which is funded by Merck!
    Your credibility, which was already shot, actually went down even more with this one!

    Steve, did you bother to read any further? Orac started by mentioning the conflict of interest, but he also noted that alone was not an issue, just something suspect. He also gave such information as this:

    Whenever I see a paper like this, I ask myself: What would I say about it if it had been sent to me as a peer reviewer. This graph leads to a number of questions. First, why did the authors use 2009 data? The cited reference notes that the data were accessed back in April 2010. That’s over a year ago. Did it really take over a year between submission and publication. Be that as it may, whenever I see investigators trying to correlate two variables like infant mortality and the number of vaccines I ask: What is the rationale? It’s the “storks deliver babies” fallacy all over again.

    The accusation he made: The data was specifically selected to support the author’s claims, and he provides evidence for it as well. That is one of the most severe accusations one can make in science, short of falsifying evidence, and he can back it up. Do you have any answer to this?

    Like

  448. August 28, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    I should poin

    If a criticism is not published in a mainstream scientific journal then it’s not peer reviewed.

    You are wasting everybody’s time with random opinions of no proven value.

    Like

  449. Joe
    August 28, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    @lara
    If your son showed signs since birth…then he is not considered having the regressive kind. He is considered having it since birth. The regressive kind is when kids are perfectly healthy and then tend to regress almost over night. Your sons Autism may be totally genetic….in that case you’re correct that vaccines didn’t trigger it. Most cases today are the regressive kind, in other words a genetic factor and an environmental factor.

    I still believe you are misinforming people when you say…..”All I’ve ever said is he was not vaccinated prior to his symptoms of autism manifesting.” without giving the timeline of 2 months….as I said before, most people would assume right or wrong that your son would be much older at that point of knowing it was Autism. Why don’t you just include that part of it?

    You may think you are ahead in knowlege because you read Dr. Courchesne….but I am open to all possibilites and have traveled to such events as the AutismOne Conference and the Autism Treatment Center of America to learn as much as possible….and we have learned a lot.

    Like

  450. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 12:09 am

    Oh, and Joe, if you’re having trouble finding references on yeast allergies, here’s one of mine:
    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html

    Like

  451. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 12:24 am

    @Gray
    When we got rid of the Candida in my son….he started sleeping through the night and without terror, his agressive behavior went away, his fears went away, his echolalia went away, he felt better, ate better, pooped better, must I go on?

    Like

  452. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 12:33 am

    How do you know your treatment was responsible for that? Any and all of those changes could have been caused simply by his growing older. The exact same logic you provided was used to justify most of the “medicine” of the Middle Ages, which famously included leeches. This is why we have double-blind studies, to keep biases and confusion out of science.

    Like

  453. Steve Michaels
    August 29, 2012 at 3:25 am

    Gray Falcon :

    If you don’t point out anything specifically wrong or false about Orac’s account in your next three posts, I will assume that you have no argument with what he said by default. For e

    Let’s get started then, remembering full well that this hit piece is NOT science, it is NOT peer reviewed and it IS grotesquely biased:

    “Examples abound, including the work of Mark and David Geier, whose studies led the to use chemical castration to treat autistic children; Andrew Wakefield, whose small case series almost certainly included fraudulent data; a truly incompetent “phone survey” commissioned by Generation Rescue designed to compare “vaxed versus unvaxed” children; and an even more incompetent “study” in which Generation Rescue used a cherry picked group of nations to try to argue that nations that require more vaccines have higher rates of infant mortality. ”

    Why is Orac talking about other things done by other people? This is blatant tarring with the same brush ad hominem attack. It is attempting to show guilt by association. It is a bit off to attack the Geiers because all that has been released thus far has been censored by the Maryland Board of Physicians under ‘administrative’ rules that have prohibited the Geiers from publicly defending themselves. The final administrative procedure has now been completed and the whole case is going to court. Let’s wait and see what comes out when the MBP rules of censorship no longer apply. I am not saying they are guilty or innocent of the accusations, I am only saying that Orac doesn’t know either unless he is privy to currently protected information. This is also the standard ‘make it about Wakefield’ tack. Complaining that a study about childhood mortality rates is flawed (by implication) to Wakefield is the equivalent of saying that if a Chevy’s brakes failed, then it must have been related to Ford. It is non sequitor. Where is the cherry picking? The study was quite clear, it chose ALL 33 nations with lower childhood mortality rates.

    “That leaves one that I’ve been meaning to apply a bit of the ol’ ultra-Insolence to as a teaching and learning exercise before I try again to move on to other topics. It’s a study that claims to link the vaccine schedule in the U.S. to increased infant mortality and, not surprisingly, was announced by the ever-popular all-purpose quackery website, NaturalNews.com, which touted a study claiming to have found that nations requiring the most vaccines tend to have the worst infant mortality rates.”

    Here is what NN said: “The 34 nations were then organized into data pairs consisting of total number of vaccine doses specified for their infants and infant mortality rates. A scatter plot of the data pairs provided evidence of a positive correlation: infant mortality rates and vaccine doses tend to increase together.”

    The data shows a positive correlation…and mortality rates and vaccine doses TEND to increase together. Wow! Groundbreaking stuff! Where have I heard something similar? Hmmm, let me see… VPD incidence tends to go down with vaccination. I am SURE I’ve heard that before somewhere… Why is it a diabolical claim when it does not support vaccinations and unquestionable truth when the claim supports vaccination? No hypocrisy here then!

    “On the other hand, even though it is stated that this was not funded by any grants or companies, I still see a conflict of interest. Specifically, the NaturalNews.com article points out that the “National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) donated $2500 and Michael Belkin donated $500 (in memory of his daughter, Lyla) for open access to the journal article (making it freely available to all researchers).” The NVIC, as you recall, was founded by Barbara Loe Fisher and is one of the oldest and most influential anti-vaccine groups in the U.S., having recently teamed up with Joe Mercola to promote anti-vaccine views through ads on a JumboTron at Times Square. Michael Belkin, you might also recall, is the man responsible for The Refusers, a one man anti-vaccine rock act best known for execrably bad songs with risible titles like “Vaccine Gestapo” and “Get Your Mandates Out of My Body.””

    There is a conflict of interest claim for $3,500. Yet Orac sees nothing wrong with proven fraudulent studies by the crook Thorsen. Thorsen knew his data was flawed due to definition changes to which autistic children were included midstream in the study and he embezzled over $1,000,000 for himself. Orac also sees nothing wrong with taking the unquestioned word of “Offitt for profit” who has made MILLIONS from vaccine royalties and owes virtually his entire livelyhood to the vaccine industry. Please!

    It is a long article that actually says very little of substance but smears and promotes innuendo quite a bit. I don’t think anymore really needs to be said. It is junk, biased journalism and you have tried to promote it as a ‘peer’ review. Again, I say SHAME!

    Like

  454. August 29, 2012 at 5:31 am

    Gray Falcon :
    How do you know your treatment was responsible for that? Any and all of those changes could have been caused simply by his growing older. The exact same logic you provided was used to justify most of the “medicine” of the Middle Ages, which famously included leeches. This is why we have double-blind studies, to keep biases and confusion out of science.

    It’s the same logic used by your worshipped fraudsters Pasteur, Koch and Jenner.Anything following an intervention was assumed to be caused by the intervention. There was no concept of “control group” then.

    Evidence Based Medicine was born in 1990, the first ever randomized clinical trial took place in 1947 and all your medical beliefs are older than that and you should revise them.

    Like

  455. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 7:20 am

    @Steve: Orac explicitly stated that the COI was not at the core of his argument, and you try to make it look like it was. Strike one, and this time, actually bother to read the article beyond the first section.

    Like

  456. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 10:15 am

    @Gray
    Busy now but will come back and tell you exactly how we know the treatments caused the changes.

    Like

  457. August 29, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Gray Falcon :
    @Steve: Orac explicitly stated that the COI was not at the core of his argument,

    So what is it?

    HIs argument is a rant of ad hominems, guilt by association and non sequiturs with no other core than being a fanatic of vaccines.

    Like

  458. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Because putinreloaded made no specific mention of any of Orac’s arguments or any errors he found in them, it can be safely assumed that he agreed with Orac’s assessment.

    Like

  459. August 29, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Because putinreloaded made no specific mention of any of Orac’s arguments or any errors he found in them, it can be safely assumed that he agreed with Orac’s assessment.

    Since Gray makes no specific mention of Mohammed’s errors it can be safely assumed that he she agrees with the Holy Quran and she’s a faithful muslim that bends over 5 times a day with her head pointing to Mecca and keeps a burqa in her wardrobe for especial occasions such as the circumcision of her children.

    You’re pulling the slippery slope fallacy, shill.

    When you bring a link it’s your argument. If you can’t explain what the “core” is of your argument we can assume you haven’t read it yourself. You haven’t done your homework yet expect your opponents to do it for you… that’s weak minded and lazy at best.

    Like

  460. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 10:48 am

    I actually did bother to read the article, if you note that I quoted it in comment #448, while it’s clear you nobody on the anti-vaccine side did. I already explained the core of Orac’s argument: The article was created by specifically selecting the data that matched that author’s intentions.

    Like

  461. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 11:05 am

    HIs argument is a rant of ad hominems, guilt by association and non sequiturs with no other core than being a fanatic of vaccines.

    Actually, I shouldn’t have bothered to respond to Putinreloaded. That quote of his could more easily apply to all his statements.

    Like

  462. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    @Gray
    It’s very easy to see the cause and effect of Biomedical treatments to our son.

    In regards to Candida there are a few ways to observe the changes that are happening:

    1- When you start the Candida protocol you take a step back and then two steps forward, to kill it off, you will have die-off which gets into the blood stream and actually causes regression or amplifies the behaviors I mentioned above. Everything gets worse for a day or days etc. This happens immediately and is very easy to follow. Then it levels off and goes away and as that happens the behaviors get back to where they were when we started the protocol and then get much, much better or go away completely once the Candida is gone. The reactions to all of this happen very quickly and it is very easy to follow along.
    2- We also do lab testing and become poop experts. The lab tests let us know how much Candida there is to start with and also let us know when the Candida is gone. The poop watching is fun…you have to dig through the poop daily and you can see the Candida….when the Candida is present in the poop…the behaviors were there…..when the Candida was not in the poop any longer….the behaviors were gone or better. Again very easy to follow.
    3- Candida is very hard to kill off….it hides etc…that’s why I say, “Yeast is a beast” because it is hard to kill off, we’ve had to tackle it a few times. This also supports what we already know. The few times the yeast has come back, so have the behaviors. It’s the behaviors that actually let us know that the yeast was back….sure enough, do a test, check the poop, yup the yeast is back. Get rid of the yeast again…behaviors go away. Once, you’ve done this a few times it’s very easy to see the correlation between the yeast and the behaviors. There are also physical signs like a bloated tummy….when yeast was present, bloated tummy and behaviors, when yeast is gone, no bloated tummy and behaviors gone.
    4- Once we learned about yeast, we passed on information to friends and family. Some of them thought they may have yeast issues based on the information. 2 of our friends did the same yeast protocol as our son and had major die-off and were sick in the beginning but then their health issues that they were wondering about either improved greatly or disappeared all together. So it was nice having people we know explain to us what the die-off felt like and also the improvements they had after killing it off so as we can relate it to our son and what he has been going through.

    Yeast ain’t no fun I can tell you that! Candida causes fogginess so you can’t think clearly, it causes fear, cravings for sweets, and a bunch of other nasty things….once you get rid of it, the improvements are so amazing!! New world out there!

    The same can be said for other biomedical treatments we’ve done or even for diet for that matter. Once you are in tune with your child it is very easy to see “daily” changes from treatments, or diet changes, or support supplements etc. It’s all very incredible and I am sorry that you don’t believe in any of it, but I am glad you don’t have a child with Autism that is missing out because Mommy/Daddy is so closed minded.

    One of the more recent things we’ve been focusing on is balancing out my son’s gaba/glutamates…. A lot of children with Autism have low gaba and way too much glutamates…once we focused on it, we saw changes in conversational speech over night! Incredible, incredible!

    Like

  463. August 29, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    The article was created by specifically selecting the data that matched that author’s intentions.

    How is cherry picking choosing ALL 33 nations with lower childhood mortality rates… unless you believe the authors had control over the IMR? your accusation is preposterous.

    Like

  464. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    @Joe, I asked for evidence that removing candida, and not any other factor, solved your child’s problems, by which I mean a meticulous and objective record of all such factors. By “objective”, I mean you must have some way of measuring your child’s progress beyond “he seems to be doing better”. I know you mean well, but one’s expectations can and do cloud one’s observations. This is not an accusation against you, merely a statement of human behavior.

    Like

  465. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    @Gray
    Here was your question…..”How do you know your treatment was responsible for that? Any and all of those changes could have been caused simply by his growing older.” And I answered it. I already gave you the measurements of progress beyond just “he seems to be doing better”. Here are the ones I stated above, “he started sleeping through the night and without terror, his agressive behavior went away, his fears went away, his echolalia went away, he felt better, ate better, pooped better, must I go on?” The fogginess went away when he was thinking and speaking, his belly was bloated any more, he started walking down the stairs again, he started going down slides again….it goes on. Those are the only measurements we need and they were amazing and wonderful!

    Like

  466. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Joe, remember that you are mortal, and still fallible. Your perception and recollection can be muddled by bias, objective records cannot.

    Like

  467. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Oh Gray….you are something.

    Like

  468. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Joe :
    Oh Gray….you are something.

    Joe, are you infallible?

    Like

  469. August 29, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Joe, remember that you are mortal, and still fallible. Your perception and recollection can be muddled by bias, objective records cannot.

    The only thing in this world that’s free from bias and fallinilty are vaccines, we all know that.

    Like

  470. August 29, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Joe :
    Oh Gray….you are something.

    Joe, are you infallible?

    No, but vaccines are. You peddle infallibility, this site peddles infallibility.

    Like

  471. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    @Gray
    Of course I am not infallible, but my son’s health is.

    Like

  472. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Of course I am not infallible, but my son’s health is.

    Again, I need evidence, not slogans. Your own biases (your desire to see your favored treatment work) can color and alter your recollections, and I have no way of knowing whether you were right or not.

    Like

  473. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @Gray
    Have no biases… and no favorite treatment….we try stuff, if it works, we keep it up, if it doesn’t, we move on. No egos here, just whatever helps our son.

    Like

  474. August 29, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Again, I need evidence, not slogans.

    What evidence does a doctor use to claim his prescription cured a patient? They’re mortal and still fallible, thier perception and recollection can be muddled by bias.

    Case reports never allow for a high level of evidence, but it’s the level clinical practice uses on a daily basis. You are discrediting clinical practice as a whole.

    Like

  475. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    @Putin
    How’d you get so smart? Must be all of the brain food you are eating that Gray doesn’t believe in.

    Like

  476. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray
    Have no biases… and no favorite treatment….we try stuff, if it works, we keep it up, if it doesn’t, we move on. No egos here, just whatever helps our son.

    Joe, you may believe that to be true, but that is not what the evidence shows.

    @Putin
    How’d you get so smart? Must be all of the brain food you are eating that Gray doesn’t believe in.

    Putin isn’t smart, he’s a liar. Doctors don’t simply look at single case reports, they do double-blind placebo-controlled studies, which are designed with the explicit purpose of reducing the levels of bias.

    Like

  477. Steve Michaels
    August 29, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    And silence now reigns from Gray about the Orac rubbish….

    Like

  478. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Steve Michaels :
    And silence now reigns from Gray about the Orac rubbish….

    Because it didn’t come up. Did you read #446 or #461? Those were both about Orac’s review. Now, be honest and address Orac’s statements about the paper, not about the author of the paper. Strike two, by the way.

    Like

  479. Joe
    August 29, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @Gray…Putin probably knows that there are certain foods benefical to health….but you don’t eat them because you don’t believe in them..because you need everything proven to you, your way. You are the one missing out my friend.

    Like

  480. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    Joe :
    @Gray…Putin probably knows that there are certain foods benefical to health….but you don’t eat them because you don’t believe in them..because you need everything proven to you, your way. You are the one missing out my friend.

    Putin is someone who has no qualms being utterly dishonest in the name of his ideals. If a company producing a drug released a statement saying fifty people were helped by a drug in test, but ignored the two hundred who were worse off because of it, would you consider that dishonest? Should we judge Putinreloaded by the same standard?

    Like

  481. August 29, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Doctors don’t simply look at single case reports, they do double-blind placebo-controlled studies, .

    Clnical trials are not part of clinical practice, you’re a liar. Subjects of experiments must be informed by law.

    But you miss the point entirely. The result of a double-blind placebo-controlled study is a statistic, as like all statistics what happens at the group level is not applicable to an individual’s isolated case.

    For example, let’s assume statistics say the average monthly income in the USA is $1500 a month. Now if you pick a US worker at random you still can’t predict what his salary will actually be.

    This is the same problem a doctor faces when figuring out whether his prescription is responsible for a given patient’s recovery or it was something else.

    Like

  482. August 29, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Oh my, playing the old and tried dishonesty card… how emotional.

    Appeal to emotion, Gray, is is fallacious and only shows how faulty your thinking process is.

    Like

  483. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Putinreloaded, are you aware that statistics are used in all forms of engineering, including electronic? If you truly believe your statement, then never use a computer again.

    Like

  484. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    putinreloaded :
    Oh my, playing the old and tried dishonesty card… how emotional.
    Appeal to emotion, Gray, is is fallacious and only shows how faulty your thinking process is.

    So what you’re saying is that it doesn’t matter whether what you’re saying is true or not?

    Like

  485. August 29, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Putinreloaded, are you aware that statistics are used in all forms of engineering, including electronic? If you truly believe your statement, then never use a computer again.

    Your argument is moot because it’s YOU who are making improper use, not enginers.

    Statistics model and predict a group’s behaviour or response, but they say nothing about the behaviour or respones of particular individual.

    Try joining an evening school for adults, you’ve missed a lot of material when it was your time.

    Like

  486. August 29, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    So what you’re saying is that it doesn’t matter whether what you’re saying is true or not?

    Everybody in a debate believes his opinion is the truth, otherwise there’d be no debate. Are you following, Miss Blonde?

    Like

  487. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    putinreloaded :

    Gray Falcon :
    Putinreloaded, are you aware that statistics are used in all forms of engineering, including electronic? If you truly believe your statement, then never use a computer again.

    Your argument is moot because it’s YOU who are making improper use, not enginers.
    Statistics model and predict a group’s behaviour or response, but they say nothing about the behaviour or respones of particular individual.
    Try joining an evening school for adults, you’ve missed a lot of material when it was your time.

    So what you’re saying is we can’t tell if every car is safe unless we crash-test every single one of them.

    Like

  488. Steve Michaels
    August 29, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Steve Michaels :
    And silence now reigns from Gray about the Orac rubbish….

    Because it didn’t come up. Did you read #446 or #461? Those were both about Orac’s review. Now, be honest and address Orac’s statements about the paper, not about the author of the paper. Strike two, by the way.

    Orac’s entire ‘analysis’ is speculaiton. “They did X. Why did they do X? Because it made the figures work’. WHERE does he say, “and I analyzed that data and came up with a different result’? He didn’t. Where did he say that he used different data sets and came up with different results? He didn’t. He has approached the entire issue as a naysayer with no alternatives. In business, when a manager derides everything suggested by others without any suggestions of their own, it is called CYA. Orac’s point about differing definitions of IM is valid and should be considered. Did the study do this? Orac doesn’t say, and neither does the study. If anything, Orac should be defending the study as a search for something and not just dismiss it. If the study has no merit, Orac should have shown the alternative results. He does not. In science, that is called hypothesis, a theory. Without providing his own alternative results, it is nothing but a rant.

    Like

  489. Gray Falcon
    August 29, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    @Steve: Call it a foul ball. You got a hit, but it didn’t go in the right direction. You forgot, in your accusing Orac of giving nothing but speculation, that you gave nothing but speculation yourself. I’ll give you one more chance, then. It’s all public data. Look it up, and tell me if it’s true or not. If you really do believe in science, you won’t just ask questions, you’ll look for answers.

    Like

  490. August 29, 2012 at 7:06 pm