Home > In the News, Science & Research > No Link Between Vaccines and Autism, but False Belief Persists

No Link Between Vaccines and Autism, but False Belief Persists

A new study, which investigated data from the National Immunization Surveys published between 1995 and 2006, confirms what public health advocates already suspected.  As the Medical Daily blog reported yesterday, the study determined that “Childhood vaccinations decreased in response to the fears surrounding autism risks.”  It’s remarkable that even today, despite the existence of widespread research that fails to show any link between autism and vaccinations, this false belief continues to persist.

Many of the parents I’ve spoken to over the years don’t even realize that the premise for these fears stemmed from a small, but well publicized study conducted by Andrew Wakefield and published in The Lancet in 1998.  Since then, many researchers tried to verify Wakefield’s claims, only to discover that their research proved the opposite.  Study after study failed to show vaccinations were in any way contributing to the incidence of autism.  Then in 2010, after evidence of tampering and undeclared conflicts of interest, Andrew Wakefield was ultimately stripped of his medical license due to the seriousness of his professional misconduct and The Lancet retracted the fraudulent study that first sparked the suggestion of a vaccine/autism link.

But years later the damage is proving extremely difficult to undo.  There are still many people who cling to Wakefield’s study as proof of a correlation.  The latest analysis from the soon-to-be-released study of immunization surveys has confirmed that autism fears have had a negative impact on immunization rates.  The study also presents a few other interesting observations:

  • More children of college-educated mothers were not vaccinated than children of non-college educated mothers, with noticeable spikes in 2003, 2004 and 2006.
  • While the controversy centered on the MMR vaccination, the autism fear had an impact on other vaccinations, to include polio and the combination vaccine to prevent diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

These observations ultimately lead to other relevant questions.

Why are college-educated mothers more likely not to vaccinate than non-college educated mothers?  Is it that the college-educated mothers were more aware of the Wakefield study from the onset, which influenced their decision?  Is it that they trust themselves to independently research things, whereas non-college educated parents may be more inclined to take the recommendations of experts?  And why is it that these college-educated mothers are not aware of the science that has since failed to prove any link between vaccines and autism?  What will it take for these parents to eventually recognize the valid research that has been done and acknowledge that they are making decisions based on false information?  If the study were expanded past 2010, in the time after Wakefield’s study was publicly criticized and ultimately retracted, would we find that the immunization trends were changing?

We may also ask why Wakefield’s suggestions about the MMR were so easily expanded to impact vaccine hesitancy for various other vaccines as well.  Clearly, there are parents who refuse some vaccines and accept others and then there are parents who won’t accept the MMR, but are willing to accept the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine as separate immunizations.  So what is influencing these decisions and what can be done to ease parental fears?

These are all interesting points to consider, and we welcome your thoughts in the comments below.

For those readers who would like to learn how to address parental concerns regarding vaccines and autism more logically, we encourage you to view Every Child By Two’s special webinar entitled Autism 101 for Immunization Advocates.  Alison Singer from the Autism Science Foundation provides an overview of autism including the very latest research regarding early diagnosis, interventions and potential causes.   She also reviews the CASE Method of communication, which combines emotional and scientific talking points aimed at addressing parental concerns about vaccines and autism and helping people to face the issue more logically. Let us know what you think.

  1. JohnFryer
    June 5, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    HI How can any suggested cause be eliminated if the true cause is unknown.

    Autism arrives AFTER vaccines for most children with this condition and only a minority are born with it.

    Vaccines in the past have been withdrawn due to factors which range from supply difficulty to the more honest lets not give thimerosal in vaccines for the one day infant.

    The head blowing up after a vaccine reaction is well known and many of the suspected or proven SBS cases have a history often of a bad reaction to vaccines.

    One accepted cause of autism is live rubella virus and MMR just happens to contain live rubella virus and expectant mothers are often known to be exposed to their peers with this vaccine before they get pregnant or during pregnancy.

    There is no smoke without fire and although the Royal Free Hospital worked on the now infamous paper they considered only the measles and not the rubella live virus.

    Over 90 percent of research money goes into genetic studies and the infamous study cannot be repeated as it is a forbidden study to repeat.

    Finally the link or association rather of vaccines used and autism is a close relation. Countries increasing the autism directly in line with the push to mass vaccinate all their citizens.

    Vaccines given after the age of 3 are most unlikely to cause autism but those given at one day or a few weeks have attracted criticism for more reasons than just possible association to autism and there is in place in every civilised country schemes to compensate those harmed by early vaccines though the success rate may be as low as 0.1 percent of those damaged due to impossible degrees of proof.

    One famous claim in the UK took 18 years before the government agreed vaccine harm.

    All this enables the doubting persons to know that government and Big Pharma plus regulators are not happy to accept any suggestion or admit vaccine harm for common sense reasons.

    Like

  2. Chris
    June 5, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Mr. Fryer, you have been told before multiple times that we have absolutely no reason to believe your claims. Especially since we have shown you several times that many are false.

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  3. Lara Lohne
    June 5, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    For you information, Mr Frye, Mr. Wakefield’s study had been done, on a larger basis and they tried, without success, multiple times in fact, to replicate his results. Obviously, if data is forged or tampered with, it’s no wonder his results couldn’t be replicated. The numbers regarding autism you are stating are not correct. Most children are found to have developmental delays prior to the age of three, in my son’s case, he was 2 when we began to suspect it was autism, but in my state they don’t begin the actual autism evaluation until a child who is already delayed, turns 3. Looking back on my son from birth, there were, challenges that none of my other children had. I brought this up to his father at the time, I’ve never had a child that was this challenging. he said his other two had been so I chalked it up to his genes and just having an extremely willful child. He also had regression around the age of 14 – 18 months, losing skills, language he previously had and developing stimming and repetitive behaviors. But he was not vaccinated. It wasn’t until his symptoms couldn’t be ignored any longer that his vaccinations were caught up and that was so he could participate in the Early Intervention program. Also, new studies are finding that the adult population is showing similar numbers of cases of autism as the children being born now, after being evaluated using the new DSM diagnostic criteria, that being the case, there really hasn’t been any increase in the rates of autism, just that we are more aware and can identify it better. Autism doesn’t just happen, the markers are there long before any vaccines are given. If a child is going to have autism, they will have it with or without vaccines. Numerous numbers of children with autism who were not vaccinated attest to that.

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  4. Kelly
    June 5, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    How can any suggested cause be eliminated if the true cause is unknown.

    Easy. Say I’m looking for my car keys. I look in my purse, not there. I still don’t know where my keys are, but I do know they are not in my purse. Only an insane person would keep looking in the purse for the keys after repeatedly confirming the keys are not there instead of looking elsewhere.

    Autism arrives AFTER vaccines for most children with this condition and only a minority are born with it.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because autism arrives after vaccines doesn’t mean the vaccines cause autism.

    The head blowing up after a vaccine reaction is well known and many of the suspected or proven SBS cases have a history often of a bad reaction to vaccines.

    Really? I’d love to see documentation of a head blowing up after a vaccine reaction. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    One accepted cause of autism is live rubella virus and MMR just happens to contain live rubella virus and expectant mothers are often known to be exposed to their peers with this vaccine before they get pregnant or during pregnancy.

    And yet numerous studies show that MMR doesn’t cause autism. Wow! Furthermore, the virus in the vaccine is attenuated or weakened so that it does not cause the same disease as the wild virus. If the wild virus is known to cause autism, why would you suggest that we don’t use a vaccine that prevents this disease? Finally, show documentation of transmission of the vaccine strain to an expectant mother and that this risk is far greater than transmission of wild virus in the absence of vaccination.

    Finally the link or association rather of vaccines used and autism is a close relation. Countries increasing the autism directly in line with the push to mass vaccinate all their citizens.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc, again.

    Vaccines given after the age of 3 are most unlikely to cause autism but those given at one day or a few weeks have attracted criticism for more reasons than just possible association to autism and there is in place in every civilised country schemes to compensate those harmed by early vaccines though the success rate may be as low as 0.1 percent of those damaged due to impossible degrees of proof.

    We are aware of the risks of vaccination. These risks are orders of magnitude smaller than the risks associated with the diseases vaccines prevent. Who would compensate those that suffer injury from the disease if we stopped vaccinating?

    Vaccine court in the US only requires a mere suggestion of plausibility. Plaintiffs don’t even have to demonstrate causation to get compensation. In some cases, the plaintiffs have been compensated even when there is scientific evidence that refutes their claim. This is not an “impossible degree of proof”. If claimants cannot met the low bar of proof for vaccine court, it is more likely that the vaccine didn’t cause the injury.

    All this enables the doubting persons to know that government and Big Pharma plus regulators are not happy to accept any suggestion or admit vaccine harm for common sense reasons.

    Ah yes, when you can’t support your claims by any rational means, resort to the irrational conspiracy theory.

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  5. liz allen
    June 5, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Wow, what an impressive post, Mr. Fryer! My goddaughter was damaged by a vaccine (encephalitis – is this what you mean by the head blowing up?) and later diagnosed with autism, to me the link is undeniable. Thank you for your voice of reason!

    Like

  6. Lara Lohne
    June 5, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    I find it odd and sad that a person who makes unfounded claims without an scientific proof to support those claims are called the voice of reason, while those who provide actual scientific data are not taken seriously and called shill, sheep and any other number of degrading terms. Since when has unreasonable claims and accusations ever been considered reasonable?

    Like

  7. Chris
    June 5, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    Ms. Allen, he has a habit of just making stuff up. Once he claimed that Japan only vaccinated children who are older than one year. It took several postings of Japan’s actual vaccine schedule to make him stop using that lie. He has yet to provide actual evidence of any of his claims.

    Ms. Allen, can you please post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed journal that shows a risk of encephalitis is greater for a vaccine than from the disease? Again, I present examples of the scientific documentation we are looking for;

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

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  8. Thomas
    June 5, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    “All this enables the doubting persons to know that government and Big Pharma plus regulators are not happy to accept any suggestion or admit vaccine harm for common sense reasons.”

    In this fantasy of yours, why do pro-children blogs like this one let people like you “reveal” the “truth,” while anti-vaccine blogs boast that they protect (sic) their readers from hearing opposing views.

    “How can any suggested cause be eliminated if the true cause is unknown.”

    I never thought of that!!!!! Until the true cause of autism is found, I’m going to promote the idea that John Fryer is the cause of autism – after all, according to you, there is no way to prove me wrong! Thank you for this confession of your evil.

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  9. Lawrence
    June 5, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    @liz – encephilitis is a known side effect of vaccine preventable diseases at a rate of as many as 1 in 1000 cases. As a side-effect of vaccines it can happen in as few as 1 in 1,000,000 or so seldomly that we can’t definitively link it to vaccines.

    Like

  10. Chris
    June 5, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Don’t forget meningitis. From the CDC Pink Book Chapter on the Hib vaccine:

    Meningitis is infection of the membranes covering the brain and is the most common clinical manifestation of invasive Hib disease, accounting for 50%–65% of cases in the prevaccine era. Hallmarks of Hib meningitis are fever, decreased mental status, and stiff neck (these symptoms also occur with meningitis caused by other bacteria). Hearing impairment or other neurologic sequelae occur in 15%–30% of survivors. The case-fatality rate is 2%–5%, despite appropriate antimicrobial therapy.

    I am confident that Ms. Allen and Mr. Fryer will provide the appropriate scientific evidence detailing the dangers of the Hib vaccine, and how the disease is not so bad. Though, that is because I am being sarcastic.

    Because these are the people who deify Wakefield because of his case series of a dozen lawyer chosen children, and yet demonize the several large epidemiological studies done on three continents that show no casual association between autism and vaccine.

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  11. June 5, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    I don’t know how many other studies have been done that showed no link at all between vaccines and, well, anything neurological, but is it approaching 100 or so?

    By the way, I’m willing to play LOGICAL FALLACY BINGO with JohnFryer. He’s already hit four or five of logical fallacy bucket list.

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  12. lilady
    June 5, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    “One accepted cause of autism is live rubella virus and MMR just happens to contain live rubella virus and expectant mothers are often known to be exposed to their peers with this vaccine before they get pregnant or during pregnancy.”

    Mr. Fryer…have you seen this article about risks of delivery a baby with CRS (Congenital Rubella Syndrome), following inadvertent immunization against rubella, during the early stages of pregnancy?

    http://www.cfp.ca/content/57/5/555.full

    I think you need to do more research about vaccines, the testing of pregnant women for antibodies against rubella and, the recommendations of the CDC to immunize a newly-delivered woman before she leaves the hospital, against rubella to protect the fetus of future pregnancies.

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  13. AG
    June 5, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    “we welcome your thoughts in the comments below” yet the very first comment is slammed.

    Perhaps if the medical industry is looking for ways to convert the educated people who “trust themselves to independently research things” they could start by not alienating them when an open discussion is welcomed?

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  14. Chris
    June 5, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Since I am the first to slam Mr. Fryer, I will not apologize. Just because the comments are welcome, it does not mean that they should be free from criticism. I also believe Mr. Fryer’s prior history of just making stuff up should be known (see link I provide in a later comment), and others should be warned that his comments are often not factual.

    Please tell us why we should not challenge, correct or ask for evidence for claims that seem wrong.

    Like

  15. Kelly
    June 5, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    AG, the post before this one is about why people became vaccine advocates. Just about everyone said because of the blatant misinformation on the internet. Like Chris, I also think it is important to correct this misinformation so that people can make informed decisions.

    I think if people “trust themselves to independently research things”, they should also not be seeking feedback by posting their “research” in public. My assumption is that if they are sharing their opinions publicly, then they are also inviting people that are more educated then they are to comment on these opinions.

    Mr. Fryer is not educated on the matter of vaccines, as his statements are easily shown to be incorrect. An educated person gets the information right more often than they get it wrong.

    Like

  16. June 5, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    AG, please tell me your education background that allows you to presume that you have more knowledge and understanding of clinical trials, infectious diseases, statistics, biochemistry, immunology, and vaccines. Please, where is your MD from? Your Ph.D.? Please, I’m waiting? Can you list your publications in peer-reviewed journals?

    So, you can independently research how to build a spacecraft to takes us to Mars? I’ll make it easier for you. Build me a car that can take me 10 miles just from information that you do in your “independent research.” Right from scratch. I’ll even bring you a ton of pig iron and aluminum for your head start.

    No AG, I doubt you have any skill to understand anything except how to make nonsense statements. Your ad hominem logical fallacy about the medical industry is laughable at best. Some of the most intelligent and caring people I know work to bring drugs and devices to market. They have saved millions of lives. What have you done? Oh wait, trying to block vaccinations so that kids die.

    Big Pharma- +1 million lives
    Big Anti-Vaccine Lunacy- –100’s of lives

    Give me a break AG. You bring nothing to the discussion but logical fallacies and conspiracy theories worthy of Glenn Beck. Bah.

    Like

  17. Chris
    June 6, 2012 at 12:00 am

    Now for a comment actually dealing with the actual blog article…

    I used to be an engineer, but had to quit when my first born had medical issues. As an engineer I thought that with a bit of research I would have the perfect child with all of the educational perks starting with the right toys for his intellectual development, and even played German tapes to expose him to a second language before he could talk. Though, ironically, his history of seizures may or may not be related to his inability to even speak English when he was three years old (it “only” took ten years of intensive speech therapy).

    So, that was a slap into reality land. I realized that the books on kids did not include the issues I was dealing with, and I needed to rely on experts. Those experts being our family doctor, the pediatric neurologist, the speech/language therapists and later the special ed. teachers at his schools. And I also learned and relied on the Resource Center of our local Children’s Hospital. It included a library, and a series of lectures for new parents. They also had a phone number to call for help (which I really needed when normally developing younger son refused to be potty trained at age four, it helped… the young man now works, pays rent and goes to college).

    So, I kind of understand since I started with the “I engineer, I know all” attitude, only to be hit by a very serious clue by four (the bad grammar is deliberate snark, we are not known for our command of language). It may be confirmation bias, but I am struck by how many cranks have engineering or computer backgrounds, like Andy Cutler, Gary Goldman, Andy Schlafly (electrical engineer before law school), Trevor Marshall and Amy Lansky. Also one of the authors of the Medical Hypothesis paper “Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning”, Albert Enayati is an engineer. Le sigh.

    Like

  18. Chris
    June 6, 2012 at 12:19 am

    Mr. Simpson:

    So, you can independently research how to build a spacecraft to takes us to Mars?

    I can! I used to be an aerospace engineer. Though my senior project was a hydrofoil sailboat done with a fellow student who had spent several years in the Navy. I still have my astrodynamics text book, and the very readable Introduction to Flight.

    Though much of my working career was on the dynamics of landing gear. It was very mathy, and I had to rely on engineering papers on what happens when the rubber hits the tarmac, literally. Plus coordinating with other people who knew more than I did about the systems. Hence my willingness to ask questions and admit when I am wrong. Though I was the one who knew the most about solving multi-dimensional nonlinear differential equations.

    Which kind of explains why I was initially going to be one of the most annoying mothers on this planet, even rivaling the “Tiger Mom”, and managed to understand there was so much I did not know after my son’s seizures when he was two days old.

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  19. Chris
    June 6, 2012 at 12:39 am

    engineering papers on what happens when the rubber hits the tarmac

    And I thought about them when I recently flew on a commercial aircraft where that generated some of the literature, including the data from test flights when they landed at over 200 knots! Oh, I hope I am never on one of those flights.

    Like

  20. Nathan
    June 6, 2012 at 8:01 am

    Liz, are you by chance the godmother of Ms. Parker’s daughter?

    Like

  21. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 9:21 am

    If you read any or all of the standard anti-vaccination websites regarding autism, they all start with the premise that absolutely, with 100% certainty, vaccines cause autism & are the culprit for the perceived rise in autism rates / diagnosis. Of course, they will differ on the mechanism (in fact, they are literally all over the board – toxins, too many, too soon, thimersol, etc, etc, etc) – but it always comes back to vaccines.

    And what actually scientific evidence do they have to back this up? None, nada, zilch, zero.

    The one and only study that they continue to cling to is the discredited & fraudulent Wakefield study, which, even at best, was never replicated & was based on a sample of 12 self-selected children – which doesn’t even scratch the surface of the issues involved, including incorrect timelines, misinterpreted or misrepresented medical records, etc.

    On the other side, there are decades of research and large-scale studies of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of children that show no correlation between vaccine status and autism rates. There are also the parallel long-term safety tracking studies that are conducted with every vaccine (and drug for that matter), which have not turned up the kinds of adverse reactions that the anti-vaccinationists claim to have seen.

    Of course, the anti-vaccine crowd will claim that all of this is just a cover-up – but exactly who is doing the covering up? If you would believe the anti-vaccine groups, it includes just about every doctor, nurse and general medical practitioner world-wide, plus all major government health agencies across the globe, plus an entire industry made up of millions upon millions of employees.

    The very scale they claim makes the “pharma conspiracy” ludicrous at its core (and all the way out as well).

    At the end of the day, all they (the anti-vaccine individual) care about is spreading the “vaccines are evil” message & they don’t care how they do it. If it wasn’t autism, they would have attached themselves to so other issue. The very fact that they need to throw everything against the wall to see if it sticks (each individual ingredient, number of vaccines, etc, etc, etc) yet are able to provide no actual evidence to back up any of their claims just shows how destitute their side is when it comes to facts.

    They constantly repeat the same old lies, over and over again – including purposely misrepresenting the “mercury card,” ignoring the differences between ethyl & methyl mercury, ignoring that the MMR vaccine never contained Thimersol, ignoring the large scale population surveys that refute the autism-vaccine link, and instead try to smear their opponents & routinely pull the Pharma Card as their only evidence.

    Finally, at least on the pro-vaccine side, it is easy to admit that there are side-effects to vaccines. They are real, they are tracked and recognized – and in the vast majority of cases, they are extremely minor and of short duration. We also recognize, that in a very small number of cases, there can be serious side-effects to vaccines as well.

    These cases are not ignored nor covered up, but help us understand some interactions that may happen in such a small number of cases that they are extremely hard to track back to their source (if a particularly bad reaction happens in as few as 1 in 10,000,000 cases, how can you definitely determine the cause, with all of the other variables involved?)

    In fact, one of the very real side-effects of the Smallpox vaccine was death – and it did occur often enough that health authorities would discontinue the distribution of the vaccine in areas of low or no risk of re-infection as quickly as possible. But, the goal of eradication of Smallpox, coupled with the absolute seriousness of the disease (much, much, much worse than the chances of a bad reaction to the vaccine) still meant that it was better to be immunized than to catch it in the wild.

    We’d also be able to discontinue the use of the Measles & Polio vaccines too – because they are diseases with no animal or natural reservoirs or carriers outside of humans. Polio probably will be eradicated in the next ten years (despite the efforts of certain anti-vaccine proponents that have delayed the process) but Measles is actually making a comeback.

    To refute the Pharma-Gambit, it has been shown, time and time again that it is more profitable to treat disease than to prevent it. Because of that very fact, the anti-vaccine groups are actually creating more profit-making opportunities for doctors, hospitals and drug companies who would stand to gain (financially – morally no doctor wants to see more Mumps, Measles, Hib or other disease in children) if vaccines rates drop.

    I turn the argument on its head – the anti-vaccine groups are doing more to make the pharmaceutical industry more profitable by advocating for the return of diseases that will lead directly to more doctors visits, more anti-biotic & retroviral use and more visits to the ER & Hospital.

    Sorry for the long-winded post, but the anti-vaccination position is blantantly unsupportable with evidence (because there is none).

    Like

  22. June 6, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Wakefield wrong or not, more recent studies (2011) are pointing to a cause/effect relationship between vaccines and autistic spectrum conditions:

    Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

    PUBMED link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

    and from 2008: Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/107993.php

    My kids are not discretional guinea pigs for the Pharma industry, give up yours to the cause if you will.

    Like

  23. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Some commentary on the weaknesses of the aluminum paper can be found here: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/08/and-global-warming-is-caused-by-the-decr/

    The monkey studies have also been highly criticized as a waste of primates. Here is just one, but I’m sure other readers will be able to provide more links: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/16/too-much-vaccineautism-monkey-business-f/

    You are using your kids as guinea pigs for a much more risky study. You are leaving your kids vulnerable to diseases that have the real potential to harm your children. Vaccines are extensively tested for safety and efficiency before being licensed. Vaccines are continuously monitored after being licensed. I’ll gladly choose the path which offers the least amount of risk to my children by vaccinating. I think it is deplorable that you are willing to let your children suffer from your ignorance.

    Like

  24. Lara Lohne
    June 6, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Good point Lawrence. I never thought of it that way but yeah, it would make more sense that anti-vaccine people are ‘pharma shills’ paid to try and decrease the number of vaccines received, therefore increase the amount of VPDs so the pharma companies and medical practices make more money. Interesting point.

    Like

  25. June 6, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    “…More children of college-educated mothers were not vaccinated than children of non-college educated mothers, with noticeable spikes in 2003, 2004 and 2006…”

    This is the people Kelly has the guts to call “ignorant”, a word best suited to described the herds of uneducated parents that blindly follow her advice withiout ever asking the questions she can honestly answer

    Like

  26. lilady
    June 6, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    What putinreloaded has neglected in his/her putdown of Kelly is that parents who are college educated may believe that they have the skill set to understand the science of immunology and epidemiology of vaccine-preventable diseases, and the ability to understand the many studies that confirm the efficacy and safety of vaccines, when they really do not have those competencies. On the other hand, non-college-educated parents readily acknowledge that they lack those skills and trust their child’s pediatrician to act in their child’s best interest.

    There is also the “ease” of accessing notorious anti-vaccine websites that some parents rely on and their inabilities to discern what is a valid study of immunizations as well as the gullibility factor associated with taking the word of pseudoscience journalists, whose sole goal is to destroy faith in the public health system.

    A university degree really is no guarantee that you will not be prone to accepting whatever new bogus pseudoscience is postulated on these notorious anti-vaccine websites.

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  27. June 6, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    “….t parents who are college educated may believe that they have the skill set to understand the science of immunology and epidemiology of vaccine-preventable diseases…”

    You’re a worse position assuming they don’t, which is preposterous since most arguments in favour of vaccines appeal to statistics, not to immunology, and statistics is a discipline common to all branches of science.

    On the other hand, vaccinology distorts immunology pretending that antiboides are specific, while immunology says – proves – that cross reactions and heterophiliy are the norm, destroying the feeble base of the criminal vaccine business.

    Now you say nothing about the uneducated masses that blindly follow the pharma-sponsored recommendations, what decision-making skills are they supposed to have? You praise this mass of idiots because that’s where your salary comes from.

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  28. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    I’m sorry, I’m not the one that cited a press release and a really bad paper to support my position, putinreloaded. If you are not ignorant of the flaws of these sources, why did you cite them?

    We can’t all know every thing. It makes much more sense to trust the opinion of those that study the subject in detail and support their recommendations with science than those with no scientific background and can’t tell a good paper from a bad one.

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  29. June 6, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    “…We can’t all know every thing. Ikes much more sense to trust the opinion of those that study the subject in detail …”

    Not when they have conflict of interests, irresponsible parent (in case you do have kids). We do know that alumiunium compounds and mercury are neurotoxic, yet you toe the ridiculous party line that toxic slime is good for healthy kids,

    “..If you are not ignorant of the flaws of these sources, why did you cite them?..”

    Because they have not been debunked, in spite of the industry’s lame attempts to prive the contary. It’s the surrogate markers the industry uses for the alleged eficcacy of its toxic products where the bad science and the scam is. Surrogate markets are good for developing theories, not scientific evidence, and therefore not good enough to decide injecting healthy kids with shit.

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  30. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    You’re a worse position assuming they don’t, which is preposterous since most arguments in favour of vaccines appeal to statistics, not to immunology, and statistics is a discipline common to all branches of science.

    Vaccines are recommended because they work. How vaccines work is based on immunology. There is more to the immune system than antibodies. Furthermore, a vaccine can be engineered to minimize undesirable reactions making that immune response superior to natural immunity.

    We know vaccines work based on epidemiology, which uses statistics as a tool to make sense of the data.

    Now you say nothing about the uneducated masses that blindly follow the pharma-sponsored recommendations, what decision-making skills are they supposed to have?

    First of all, you have to establish that vaccine recommendations are “pharma-sponsored” and not supported by data. Second, the scientific evidence supports vaccine recommendations. These recommendations aren’t just the opinion of an uneducated person publishing misinformation on the internet. Since there is no evidence to support an anti-vaccine stance, parents that vaccinate their children on the advice of educated people are wiser than uneducated people that follow the advice of other uneducated people to not vaccinate their children.

    Like

  31. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    You have to establish that vaccine ingredients are neurotoxic in the concentrations found in the vaccines. Safety studies show that vaccine ingredients are not toxic. You are just blindly repeating anti-vaccine rhetoric because you lack the education to think for yourself.

    Like

  32. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    And putinreloaded more than proves my point above.

    Like

  33. June 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    “…First of all, you have to establish that vaccine recommendations are “pharma-sponsored” and not supported by data…”

    My pleasure… let’s start with the Cochraine study on the industrial and academical pharma-sponsored fraud on flu vaccine data and studies:

    —Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.

    Jefferson T, Di Pietrantonj C, Rivetti A, Bawazeer GA, Al-Ansary LA, Ferroni E.
    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007;(2):CD001269.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

    “…WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies…”

    Vaccines is the business of fraudsters and their crackpot followers lack a minimum of common sense.

    Like

  34. June 6, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    You have to establish that vaccine ingredients are neurotoxic in the concentrations found in the vaccines.

    No problem… contary to your hollow posing I’m well documented and informed:

    let’s take Hron and Golding…

    Heron and Golding’s paper “Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association ” says:

    “It has been suggested that low doses of ethylmercury might have a similar effect on childhood cognitive development as methylmercury; however, there is little evidence to support this claim. Moreover, ethylmercury is more quickly metabolized and evacuated from the body than methylmercury.”

    However, we are told in the very next paragraph:

    “Current guidelines on safe exposure to thimerosal have been extrapolated from data on methylmercury and are varied, from 0.1 µg/kg/day of the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States to 0.47 µg/kg/day of the World Health Organization. Before the change to thimerosal-free vaccines, US children could have been exposed to levels as high as 187.5 µg by the time they were 6 months of age, exceeding the Environmental Protection Agency guidelines. In the United Kingdom, the only vaccines that contain thimerosal and have been routinely used in the past 2 decades are whole-cell diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis (wDTP) vaccine or diphtheria-tetanus (DT) vaccine and any combination vaccine containing wDTP or DT. Although the United Kingdom exposure is lower by 6 months, the accelerated United Kingdom primary immunization schedule of 2/3/4 months means that a maximum exposure of 75 µg may be received by 4 months of age.“

    So, in fact, these vaccine doses were not “low doses” of Thimerosal at all. Using US CDC growth charts [1,2] I have calculated by how many times approximately UK vaccination practice exceeded the US Environmental Protection Agency’s reference dose (RfD) for mercury: “Currently, US EPA uses an RfD of 0.1 micrograms/kg bodyweight/day as an exposure without recognised effects” [3]. Each shot of DPT given at 2,3 and 4 months we are told contained approximately 25 micrograms of mercury, which is 250 times 0.1 microgram. In order to calculate the excess dose you need to divide 250 by the weight of the infant in kilograms. These are the results:

    2 months: weight range 3.8-6.4kg: excess dose 40-66 times EPA RfD for mercury

    3 months: weight range 4.5-7.4kg: excess dose 35-56 times EPA RfD for mercury

    4 months: weight range 5.2-8.3kg: excess dose 30-48 times EPA RfD for mercury

    It is impossible to imagine someone deliberately overdosing on a medical product – except to harm themselves – at this level, but this is not a therapeutic substance but a deadly neuro-toxin.

    Furthermore, far from thimerosal being an exceptionally benign format for mercury manufacturers’ safety advice suggests precisely the opposite. I quote from Merck’s current European safety information:

    “Very toxic by inhalation, in contact with skin and if swallowed. Danger of cumulative effects. Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environment.”

    “Keep away from food, drink and animal feeding stuffs. After contact with skin wash immediately with plenty of water. Wear suitable protective clothing. In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately (show the label where possible). This material and its container must be disposed of as hazardous waste. Avoid release to the environment.”

    A manufacturer’s safety data sheet (MSDS) for thimerosal from Amersham/US Bioscience mentions a long list of symptoms associated with autism:

    “Chronic ingestion or excessive dosage may cause numbness, tingling of hands, feet, lips, ataxia, painful joints, constriction of visual fields, impaired hearing, emotional disturbances, spastic movements, incontinence, groaning, shouting, dizziness, lacrimation, hypersalivation, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and constipation.”

    Heron and Golding’s failure to detect any adverse effects is, therefore, quite as surprising as the practice of injecting infants with thimerosal in the first place.

    Safety studies show that vaccine ingredients are not toxic.

    Bring me one and cut the hollow chest-beating… let’s see the quality of what you have (if you have anything at all)

    Like

  35. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Yes, but the Cochrane review still recommended influenza vaccines because the data supports flu vaccines not because Big Pharma told them too.

    Here is the link to the full text: http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/userfiles/ccoch/file/CD001269.pdf

    Authors’ conclusions
    Influenza vaccines are effective in reducing cases of influenza, especially when the content predicts accurately circulating types and circulation is high. However, they are less effective in reducing cases of influenza-like illness and have a modest impact on working days
    lost. There is insufficient evidence to assess their impact on complications. Whole-virion monovalent vaccines may perform best in a pandemic.

    Just because the industry funded studies were published in better journals and cited more often doesn’t meant that the data was fraudulent, especially when independent studies come to the same conclusion.

    Science takes all the studies into account. You just can’t cherry-pick the studies that suit your agenda.

    You still have to provide evidence for all the other vaccines on the schedule.

    Like

  36. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    So let me get this straight. The paper you are citing (full text here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/3/577.abstract) states that there is no harmful effects of thimerosal but you are asking me to “cut the hollow chest-beating”? You shot yourself in the foot with your own citation. Thank you for making my point for me.

    Here’s a chemistry hint for you: ethylmercury is not the same as methylmercury. You cannot use the standards for chronic exposure to methylmercury to declare the trace amounts of thimerosal in some vaccines (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm) as toxic.

    Quoting MSDS for concentrated stock solutions is also completely irrelevant. Remember, we are talking about the concentration in vaccines, not the stock bottle.

    If you are going to claim to be educated, you have to do better than that, putinreloaded.

    Like

  37. Units matter
    June 6, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    The limits are in units of micrograms per kilo per day; you calculated micrograms per kilo. What happens if you finish the calculation, so that you are comparing two quantities with the same units?

    Like

  38. June 6, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Units matter :
    The limits are in units of micrograms per kilo per day; you calculated micrograms per kilo. What happens if you finish the calculation, so that you are comparing two quantities with the same units?

    The calculation is transparent, it’s up there and plain to see. Any child can do it. Care to do yours and prove me wrong or are you also number illiterate?

    Like

  39. liz allen
    June 6, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    Thank you, AG, your polite remonstrance against the savage comments found here is well-taken, and I’m sure that eventually the medical industry will realize that it’s counter-productive to tear to pieces those of us who are more afraid of the vaccines than of the diseases.

    Like

  40. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    Putin, you seem to be the one with the reading problem. The overall conclusion was favourable to vaccines.

    Please provide the citations for high-quality papers that refute the industry-funded studies. You are the one making the claim that the industry-funded studies are fraudulent, but have yet to provide any evidence of that.

    You have demonstrated that you are extremely ignorant and like to cherry-pick information to support your conspiracy theory.

    Sorry, that’s just not convincing to me. Calling me “a joke”, just further confirms that you have nothing to support your position.

    Like

  41. Christine Vara
    June 6, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    We would like to remind commenters to refrain from personal attacks. Any comments deemed inappropriate will be removed. Thank you for your cooperation and continued participation.

    Like

  42. Units matter
    June 6, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    I was being nice, and giving you a chance to correct your exagerated figures.

    Taking the 2-month, three month and 4 month shots together, and dividing by 120 days, you get a range of .87 – 1.7 times the limit, instead of the erroneous values you provided. Of course those are the worst case values – if the 4 month shots are taken a little late, then then range would be even lower.

    Like

  43. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Calling me stupid isn’t helping your case, putin. Your argument is based on irrelevant data by comparing methylmercury and ethylmercury and your units were wrong.

    Furthermore, the paper you cited blows your claim right out of the water. The concentration of thimerosal in the vaccines was found not to be toxic.

    Perhaps you can fool uneducated people with your sloppy work, but it’s not working with me.

    Like

  44. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    The irrational fear of vaccines must be addressed. That’s why vaccine advocacy is so important and why we need to correct the misinformation that anti-vaxers like to spread, liz.

    This types of comments are still welcome because it gives people a chance to explain why fears of vaccines are unfounded.

    Like

  45. June 6, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    “…was being nice, and giving you a chance to correct your exagerated figures. …”

    The dose is given in ONE DAY… another fact that flew ovder yxour head. Now here’s ypuor chance correct the numbers WITH NUMBERS if you are able to (so far you’ve only “fought” my numbers with words)

    2 months: weight range 3.8-6.4kg: excess dose 40-66 times EPA RfD for mercury

    3 months: weight range 4.5-7.4kg: excess dose 35-56 times EPA RfD for mercury

    4 months: weight range 5.2-8.3kg: excess dose 30-48 times EPA RfD for mercury

    Like

  46. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    @putinreloaded – again, you are proving my points listed above. You don’t know the difference between methyl-mercury & ethyl-mercury, which belies probably a total lack of basic science skills, much less an insight into immunology. You also seem to not realize that Thimersol was removed from most vaccines a decade or more ago, was never in the MMR vaccine (which was originally blamed for autism), and all other vaccines that have it are also available in non-Thimersol varieties.

    You latch on to very small sections of a paper that otherwise completely refutes your claim that Thimersol-containing vaccines were somehow the cause of a larger percentage of developmental issues.

    Again, you fall victim to the anti-vaccine talking points, which have been refuted over and over again – and finally throw back out the Pharma-Shill card, which is the last bastion of those with no other evidence on their side.

    Like

  47. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    putin, thimerosal is not mercury. It is a mercury containing compound. Those that are educated in chemistry are aware of this difference. The paper you cited shows that the concentration of thimerosal in vaccines is safe. You are coming to different conclusion because you are making inappropriate inferences from the data.

    Like

  48. June 6, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    “…our argument is based on irrelevant data by comparing methylmercury and ethylmercury …”

    Anotehr fact flies over your head.. the levels of inorganic mercury that Burbacher et al discovered in the brains of macaque monkeys were actually worse than for an equal weight of methyl mercury:

    http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.pdf

    Thomas M. Burbacher, Danny D. Shen, Noelle Liberato, Kimberly S. Grant, Elsa Cernichiari, and Thomas Clarkson: ‘Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal’,

    So much for the “arguments” of the industry of “health throuh poisoning” – if there’s an oxymoron in the world this is it.

    Like

  49. June 6, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    Happy poisoning guys! but I got lead for any of you that tries to approach my kids.

    Bye bye!

    Like

  50. Lara Lohne
    June 6, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    p>A manufacturer’s safety data sheet (MSDS) for thimerosal from Amersham/US Bioscience mentions a long list of symptoms associated with autism:
    “Chronic ingestion or excessive dosage may cause numbness, tingling of hands, feet, lips, ataxia, painful joints, constriction of visual fields, impaired hearing, emotional disturbances, spastic movements, incontinence, groaning, shouting, dizziness, lacrimation, hypersalivation, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and constipation.”

    @ putinreloaded: I really hate to break it to you, but these are not symptoms that would result in a diagnosis of autism. If you need the symptoms that would, I can provide them for you, quoted from the DSM IV which is the current standard used for diagnosis of any and all mental disorders. Just let me know and I can provide you that information and you can judge for yourself how very unlike the above symptoms autism symptoms really are.

    Like

  51. Chris
    June 6, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    Why would you fear the vaccine more than the diseases? Is it because of this fear that you cannot support your statements with scientific evidence?

    It is about as logical as a former co-worker explaining to me how organic food was so much better for staying healthy while at the same time she was smoking a cigarette.

    I would also like to quote Ms. Lohne’s previous comment to you:

    I find it odd and sad that a person who makes unfounded claims without an scientific proof to support those claims are called the voice of reason, while those who provide actual scientific data are not taken seriously and called shill, sheep and any other number of degrading terms. Since when has unreasonable claims and accusations ever been considered reasonable?

    Please explain how that is a “savage” comment.

    Like

  52. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    @putinloaded – again, back to the last bastion of those who have been thoroughly discredited. Thanks for all of the citations that, when looked at correctly, disprove each and every one of your points.

    Like

  53. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Is that a threat of violence, putin? You can’t support your claims so you threaten to hurt those that can?

    Like

  54. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @Kelly

    In the grand scheme of things, somehow I don’t think putinreloaded would have a problem with her kids attending Pox Parties or be purposely exposed to other vaccine-preventable diseases, despite the fact that the potential side effects are worse & occur more often with the actual diseases (at a magnitude or more higher rate) than getting vaccinated and avoiding the diseases entirely…..

    That is the typical anti-vaccine mindset at work.

    Like

  55. Kelly
    June 6, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    Oh no, putin. Good thing children aren’t monkeys and human trials, like the one you posted, don’t actually show any toxicity associated with thimerosal.

    Also, this Burbacher et. al. paper shows why your calculation of thimerosal toxicity based on methylmercury toxicity is incorrect.

    The firmest conclusion to be drawn from these pharmacokinetic studies is that methylmercury and ethylmercury are handled very differently in the body and that safety limits regarding methylmercury cannot simply be extrapolated to ethylmercury.

    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/07vol33/acs-06/index-eng.php

    How can you claim to be educated when the very papers that you cite show you to be wrong? Do you not understand what you read?

    Like

  56. Lawrence
    June 6, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    @Kelly – putinreloaded is great at cherry-picking the one or two paragraphs out of dozens of pages of materials that ultimately refute whatever point she is trying to make.

    Like

  57. lilady
    June 6, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    According to Putin….

    “On the other hand, vaccinology distorts immunology pretending that antiboides are specific, while immunology says – proves – that cross reactions and heterophiliy are the norm, destroying the feeble base of the criminal vaccine business.”

    Huh…where did you ever get that idea?

    Do you even know the difference between IGM and IGG antibodies or how to distinguish between the immunity conferred by a hepatitis B vaccine versus immunity from a past infection with the hepatitis B virus?

    And another point that has to be made here…your insinuations that doctors and nurses are pharma shills who would violate their professional codes of conduct and risk their hard-earned professional licenses…all in the service of big pharma.

    BTW Putin, want to share with us what your university conferred degree is, your professional licenses in the health care field and your work experience in the health care field? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Like

  58. Nathan
    June 6, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    The dose is given in ONE DAY… another fact that flew ovder yxour head.

    But the EPA guidelines are NOT for one day, putin. They are for chronic daily exposure – every day.

    It’s funny how readily you insult people for not understanding when you don’t understand yourself.

    Like

  59. Autismum
    June 6, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    The neuroscience cranks wind me up and there are plenty of them.
    My DH is Irish and we only decided not to move to Dublin when I got pregnant as I wanted my child to speak Welsh. Even though it was apparent he was not NT at birth letting go of speaking to him in Welsh when it was just the two of us or putting on Welsh cartoons etc for him to hear the language in conversation (DH speaks Irish and French but not Welsh) was a big one to let go of. I’d convinced myself that he’d be just like a family member with ASD who is bilingual, When my son wasn’t even trying to sit at 10months I had to re-assess my “expert” opinion.
    I minded less about him going to special school than I did about the possibility he would have to go to a mainstream English medium school.
    I found there was little help or support until he’d missed milestones by some way and we were in the child health system.

    Like

  60. Nathan
    June 7, 2012 at 2:04 am

    Don’t worry, we will avoid your kids like we would avoid plague. Literally.

    Like

  61. Nurse Ratchet
    June 7, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    I am a registered nurse, mother and grandmother. My grandson is 5 years old and has never received any vaccinations. He has never had an ear infection, lung infection, bronchitis or any other infections plaguing young children today. Also, my grandson has never taken antibiotics which is amazing to me. Working in a family practice, I am saddened to see such ill health in children today. I’m not talking about vaccine preventable diseases, I am speaking about allergies, asthma, ADD, ADHD, autism, diabetes, bowel problems, ear infections, strep infections, tonsilitis, and bronchitis to name a few.
    I have no scientific proof that vaccines are causing ill health in children but I am surprised to see the increase in these diseases and the large increase in the amount of auto immune diseases. My grown children were vaccinated, however the amount of shots they received in 1989 were 12 shots by the age of 5. The vaccine schedule in 2012 is 32 shots (or more)by the age of 5. This is a three fold increase.
    There is no scientific proof to show why the United States is among the sickest country in the world, but the increase in diseases seem to be rising right along with the increase in vaccinations. With the medical treatments available today, diseases which we vaccinate against are treatable. The bacterial infections, diptheria, tetanus, pertusis, pneumonia are treated with antibiotics. As a child I had measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox with no ill effects. As thinking adults we should keep our minds open to the possiblities of treatment for diseases instead of trying to vaccinate against diseases which can be treated.

    Like

  62. Nathan
    June 7, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    I am a registered nurse, mother and grandmother. My grandson is 5 years old and has never received any vaccinations. He has never had an ear infection, lung infection, bronchitis or any other infections plaguing young children today.
    Also, my grandson has never taken antibiotics which is amazing to me.

    Then he is just like thousands of vaccinated children. Except they are immune to deadly diseases and your grandson is not. Does that not bother you?

    Working in a family practice, I am saddened to see such ill health in children today. I’m not talking about vaccine preventable diseases

    I imagine not, since a good number of them been eradicated in the US by vaccines

    I am speaking about allergies, asthma, ADD, ADHD, autism, diabetes, bowel problems, ear infections, strep infections, tonsilitis, and bronchitis to name a few.
    I have no scientific proof that vaccines are causing ill health in children

    But if you were familiar with the medical literature, you would know about the copious amounts of studies that indicate these things are not caused by vaccinations. And you really think there is more tonisilitis than in the good old days?

    My grown children were vaccinated, however the amount of shots they received in 1989 were 12 shots by the age of 5. The vaccine schedule in 2012 is 32 shots (or more)by the age of 5. This is a three fold increase.

    And you don’t want your grandchild protected against invasive pneumococcal disease? I’m guessing that you are not a pediatric nurse.

    There is no scientific proof to show why the United States is among the sickest country in the world,

    Please tell me you don’t honestly think that the United States is anywhere near the sickes country in the world. It seems that not only are you not a pediatric nurse, but you have never been on a medical mission in a developing country.

    With the medical treatments available today, diseases which we vaccinate against are treatable. The bacterial infections, diptheria, tetanus, pertusis, pneumonia are treated with antibiotics.

    No, they are not, especially tetanus and pertussis, and definitely not with reliable success. When you make a statement like that, I begin to question whether you are a nurse at all. And certainly, if you are, you at some point learned that “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

    Or in this case, a Shot of Prevention.

    Like

  63. Kelly
    June 7, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    I have no scientific proof that vaccines are causing ill health in children but I am surprised to see the increase in these diseases and the large increase in the amount of auto immune diseases.

    There is no scientific proof to show why the United States is among the sickest country in the world, but the increase in diseases seem to be rising right along with the increase in vaccinations.

    There is no scientific proof…that right there should tip you off to what you are saying is just something you made up. You should be ashamed of yourself to be such a disgrace to your profession by spreading misinformation like that.

    As a child I had measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox with no ill effects. As thinking adults we should keep our minds open to the possiblities of treatment for diseases instead of trying to vaccinate against diseases which can be treated.

    As a registered nurse you should know that just because you came through those diseases just fine, others don’t. You should also know that treatment options are extremely limited and if available are not terribly effective for vaccine preventable diseases. Prevention is far superior to treatment for these illnesses.

    Nurse Ratchet, I think you need to go back to school and learn a few things about vaccinations and critical thinking.

    Like

  64. Chris
    June 7, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    He has never had an ear infection, lung infection, bronchitis or any other infections plaguing young children today

    Thank for your N=1 study. Now please come up with 9σ2 – 1 more kids who are five years old and have never been vaccinated. Then resubmit your study.

    I have no scientific proof that vaccines are causing ill health in children

    Thank you for admitting that. Now please learn how to use PubMed, and come back and tell us exactly how vaccination is causing ill health. We would like to see the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers showing that science.

    With the medical treatments available today, diseases which we vaccinate against are treatable. The bacterial infections, diptheria, tetanus, pertusis, pneumonia are treated with antibiotics.

    Except those bacterial infections produce toxins. Antibiotics are not a complete cure, and with antibacterial resistance the point is to use them only if you have to. And antibiotics do nothing for measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, hepatitis or polio. Do go and refresh the treatment options for all of the vaccine preventable diseases, because it is shocking that a nurse would not know antibiotics do nothing for viruses or bacterial toxins. The CDC Pink Book has clear explanations on how those diseases are treated.

    And do you seriously think it is more cost effective to treat an illness instead of preventing it? If you do, then do tell us how having several thousands of children per year attached to ventilators in hospitals is a better idea than vaccinating with some real data.

    As a child I had measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox with no ill effects.

    Again, a lovely N=1 study. Now please tell us why Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter is unable to tell us that she had no ill effects from measles.

    Like

  65. Chris
    June 7, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    Argh… the superscript did not work. It should be:
    9σ^2 (meaning the square of the sample variance)

    I would also like to add that Nurse Ratchet’s grandson is being protected by herd immunity. He is not getting vaccine preventable diseases because other kids around him have been vaccinating.

    Now if his parents send him to private school that is not concerned about vaccines, he will be in group without herd immunity. Then he will have a higher chance of getting the pertussis or measles.

    Like

  66. lilady
    June 7, 2012 at 11:14 pm

    Nurse Ratchet: I really doubt that you are a licensed registered nurse. Just in case you are licensed, you need to go back to school for some refresher courses about treatment of vaccine-preventable diseases and the difference between infectious diseases and the “other” disorders that you have linked to vaccines.

    “With the medical treatments available today, diseases which we vaccinate against are treatable. The bacterial infections, diptheria, tetanus, pertusis, pneumonia are treated with antibiotics.”

    How about “sharing with us” which antibiotic is available to treat diphtheria…in lieu of diphtheria antitoxin? Do tell us why the overall mortality rate for diphtheria is 45 percent.

    How about tetanus, nurse Ratchet? Antibiotics can only prevent further growth of the bacterium. Antibiotics given after the appearance of symptoms only work on the unbound tetanus bacterium…after the damage has been done by tetanus toxins.

    I guess you don’t think that pertussis infection in infants that can cause brain anoxia and death is not a serious consequence. Antibiotics given after an exposure may prevent the disease in an unimmunized infant. Antibiotics given once the symptomatic cough begins, do not shorten the course of the disease; nor do they lessen the coughing episodes.

    Most bacterial pneumonias are caused by the S. pneumoniae and H. influenzae B bacteria. There are vaccines available to prevent these serious, sometimes deadly bacterial illnesses. When these two bacteria become invasive they result in deadly bacteremia/major organ failure/limb amputations and meningitis with high morbidity and mortality rates.

    Have you ever cared for a child with invasive bacteremia or bacterial meningitis, nurse Ratchet? Have you ever seen a child brought into a hospital in the wee hours of the morning, whose life support was turned off within hours due to brain death? Do you understand that cetriaxone pumped into a child infected with either S. Pneumonia or Hib disease may not cure a child, once the child goes into septic shock?

    You really ought to think about a career change, nurse Ratchet. Your deplorable lack of knowledge of infectious diseases and non-infectious disorders, already has an impact on your child’s decision to not vaccinate your grandchild.

    Like

  67. novalox
    June 8, 2012 at 1:51 am

    Making a death threat now? Nice to know that you will resort to violence.

    Like

  68. Bev, RN
    June 8, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    My grandson may not be immune to a handful of “deadly” diseases as you say, however, he is also not immune to HIV/AIDs, Malaria, malnutrition, tuberculosis, ischaemic heart disease, cancer, typhus, cholera, cancer,…etc. Clean water, healthy nutrition, fresh air, excercise, and plenty of sleep builds a strong immune system. I do not worry about death because we will all die of something.
    By the way, if a person suspects he has been infected with tetanus, he should go to the nearest emergency room and get an injection of tetanus immunoglobulin.
    Pertussis is a dangerous, contagious disease especially for infants who cannot cough or expectorate the phlegm. Pertussis is a bacteria treated with erythromycin, azithromycin, trimethoprim or sulfamethoxazole. “Secondary infections are the most common cause of whooping cough related deaths.” CDC: Vaccines & Preventable Diseases: B. Pertussis (whooping cough)
    A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems such as severe allergic reaction, long term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness, or permanent brain damage. I am a surgical nurse, not a pediatric nurse.

    Like

  69. Bev, RN aka Nurse Ratchet
    June 8, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Kelly,
    My comments were just that, comments. Opinions, first hand experience with many sick, fully vaccinated children. The increase in numbers of diseases has risen in the last 20 years, especially auto-immune disease.
    I am not ashamed to speak my mind and give my opinions and thoughts. We still have freedom of speech in the US the last time I looked.
    A disgrace to my profession? Those are some pretty harsh words. I thought this was a blog of discussion, not a blog of libelous statements against me for having a difference of opinion.

    Like

  70. Bev, RN aka Nurse Ratchet
    June 8, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Chris,
    WOW! Just thoughts, opinions and personal history…no systematic investigation of vaccinated/unvaccinated individuals. I am no scientist. I also did not say viral infections can be treated with antibiotics, only bacteria can be killed.

    Like

  71. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    A vaccine causes serious reactions less frequently than the disease. Common sense would be if you are concerned about vaccine reactions, then you should be worried about complications from diseases more since these reactions are more frequent and more severe.

    If you think that a healthy immune system can fight off the wild, full-strength pathogen, then why do you think it can’t handle the weakened or dead versions in vaccines?

    Furthermore, even the most basic common sense would tell you that before the vaccine, healthy immune systems failed to defeat these pathogens. The reason they are called pathogens is because a healthy immune system can’t fight them off.

    I’m also appalled that a woman who is supposedly a nurse would have the attitude of “oh well, we’re going to die anyway so why bother with prevention”. Do your patients know that you don’t give a damn about their care because it’s their time to go anyway? What about your employer? Certainly not an attitude I would desire in a health care worker in charge of helping me get better.

    Like

  72. Bev, RN aka Nurse Ratchet
    June 8, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Lilady,
    More maliciciousness, defamation and slander! My opinions have had no impact on my 28 year old sons’ decision not to vaccinate his son, his decision was a total surprise to me.

    Like

  73. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Well considering your opinion is ignorant, incorrect and possibly dangerous, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your false information has lead your child not to vaccinate and place the child at increased risk of harm.

    Freedom of speech means you can express your opinion and I can express mine about how disgraceful you are. It would only be libel if what I said was false. Since you typed the incriminating words yourself, good luck with that. Your ignorance is there in all its glory for all to read for themselves.

    Like

  74. Bev, RN
    June 8, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Again, WOW! More word vomit! I do care about my patients and I am apalled you would suggest “I don’t give a damn” about their care. I will pray for you. I pity the people around you who dare have a difference of opinion.

    Like

  75. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    You obviously offer your ignorant opinion for complete strangers on the Internet, yet you never shared your opinion with your own son? If you find the need to spread misinformation to strangers, I find it hard to believe that you had no influence over your son’s decision.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Like

  76. Bev, RN
    June 8, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Libel is a published false statement damaging to a persons reputation. “Do your patients know that you don’t give a damn about their care…” Pretty damaging, be careful.

    Like

  77. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    If you care about your patients why do you not do your best to educate yourself before offering your opinion? Do you think misleading people because you are too lazy to read the literature is a sign of caring for them?

    I certainly don’t. I think you are a disgrace and make nurses look bad. There are hard-working nurses that remain current on the literature and offer their patients the best care. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to lump yourself in with them and identifying yourself as a nurse in a lame attempt to add authority to your opinion.

    Your opinion is completely worthless. You know it and are then surprised when someone identifies your opinion for what is. You claim you have the right to express your ignorant, misleading dangerous opinion, but free speech means I have the right to warn people not to listen to you.

    Like

  78. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Bev, you said yourself you don’t care because they are going to die of something anyway. I’m just repeating what you said yourself. Since you now grasp how damaging your words are to your own reputation, you should better understand why I think you are a disgrace to your profession.

    Like

  79. lilady
    June 8, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    @ Bev a/k/a Ratchet: If you don’t know anything about immunology “I’m a surgical nurse, not a pediatric nurse”…why do you post here with your inanities that link autoimmune disorders, allergies, ADD/ADHD and other disorders with autism?

    Where are your citations Bev/Ratchet that back up your specious theories?

    You were the one who first stated that vaccines are unnecessary, when antibiotics can “cure” bacterial vaccine-preventable diseases…I merely pointed out that your statements were not based in science.

    Going along with your skewed reasoning and your experience as a surgical nurse Bev/Ratchet, why should a surgeon remove a diseased gall bladder or a diseased appendix? Why not just wait until the gall bladder becomes gangrenous and the appendix bursts and simply load the patient up with antibiotics?

    Bev/Ratchet…if you really are a registered nurse, then you must know that we expect citations from peer-reviewed journals to back up your theories.

    “More maliciciousness, defamation and slander!” My comments are not malicious Bev/Ratchet, nor defamatory, nor slanderous…they are the truth. BTW Bev/Ratchet, you might want to look up the definition of “slander” to find that a spoken…not a written…defamatory statement, is classified as “slander”.

    “My opinions have had no impact on my 28 year old sons’ decision not to vaccinate his son, his decision was a total surprise to me.” Yeah sure, Bev/Ratchet

    Like

  80. ignorant opinion
    June 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    What a rude blog. What a waste of time.

    Like

  81. Lawrence
    June 8, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    But obviously interesting enough for you to post….thanks for playing.

    Like

  82. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    It’s like the old chat rooms in Yahoo….a few people ruling the roost and if you try and get in and voice your opinion, BAM! You’re shot down, belittled and disrespected. Like a group of rabid dogs ready to pounce and devour their anti-vaccine prey. But here I am posting again, haha, it’s like a toothache…I just can’t stop irritating it. Oh what the heck, nothing better to do on a rainy Friday night.

    Like

  83. Chris
    June 8, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    If you look up the thread, you will notice I have offered many studies. You, on the other hand have just made a bunch of statements without evidence, including that vaccine preventable diseases can be treated with antibiotics. But if you insist here is study: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents.

    Now if you find that insufficient, then design a study, get it past an Independent Review Board and write a grant to fund your study. Then request funding from SafeMinds, Generation Rescue, Autism Trust, Autism Speaks and others to do the study. Then randomly select a sufficient sample size of children to conduct your study, do the work and then get it published. You already have your N=1 study, just go and get the rest of the sample children.

    Like

  84. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    I don’t care about you or anyone else in this glorified chat room and you know what you can do with your studies. I am now here for the entertainment…for the bashing and gnashing of teeth. You people are hilarious and just what I needed tonight. Vaccines are full of stuff I don’t want to inject into my arm. Period. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
    As far as your children, do whatever you want, it’s a free country…stay with the herd of sheeple.

    Like

  85. Chris
    June 8, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    So? If you wish to live your life in fear just because you don’t understand the science, especially when it comes to dose and risk assessment, go ahead. But I will continue to ask for evidence from you and your friends to prove that those things are dangerous.

    Like

  86. Chris
    June 8, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Seriously? You actually think it is better to treat than to prevent? Okay, read this: Philosophic objection to vaccination as a risk for tetanus among children younger than 15 years.

    Now do tell us why putting kids on ventilators for days, or even months, is preferable than giving them the DTaP series, and yourself a Tdap? Please tell us why pumping kids full of that list of drugs for pertussis that all come with side effects has less risk than the vaccines? Give us the literature that show treating tetanus and pertussis is more cost effective and safer than the DTaP vaccine. Here are some examples (if it looks familiar, it is because it is the same thing I posted a few days ago):

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    Like

  87. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    You are so smart!! I am so impressed with your library of information, it is making my head spin. Just don’t know how to answer. I can only speak for myself. I am not injecting this shi* into my arm!!!! http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

    Like

  88. Chris
    June 8, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Okay, then explain exactly the dangers from those ingredients in the doses used with some actual scientific literature. Show us that you are just not afraid of things that have long names.

    And yes, I am amused you are afraid of sucrose and lactose so much more than a child getting haemophilus influenzae type b.

    Like

  89. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Sounds like you sheeple are the ones who are scared. You talk about herd immunity. What happens when our unvaccinated children come to school with chicken pox? You think your child will get infected…..but wait you vaccinated them….twice….they should be protected right? Vaccination’s foundation is fear. Fear of disease. Why not look at reality. We are a fat immobile society who eat fast food, drink too much, pop too many pills and ask doctors to fix us. We have heart disease, diabetes, COPD, HIV, and cancer. More afraid of chronic illness than acute.

    Like

  90. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    C’mon, really? Do you know what formaldehyde is? Doesn’t take a rocket scientist. MRC-5? Ingredient in the MMR vaccine….lung tissue from a 14 week old fetus. Not sure I want either of those things in my body. Formaldehyde causes cancer, you look it up.

    Like

  91. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 10:31 pm

    They should, but they might not be. No vaccine is 100% effective and there is also those that can not be vaccinated for medical reasons. There are two ways to prevent disease: 1. lower host susceptibility by using a vaccine and 2. reduce the risk of exposure.

    Reality is that varicella-zoster virus has the potential to kill. Sending your sickly child to school to infect others shows the callous disregard for the health of others by anti-vaxers.

    There is no relationship between vaccine and chronic disease. You are the one advocating not vaccinating because you have fabricated this fear of something that doesn’t even exist. Meanwhile you ignore the very real risks of diseases that can be prevented by vaccines. Desire to avoid peril is a very reasonable response. Placing your children in peril because of you falsely think protecting them puts them in greater danger is extremely foolish. It’s like throwing your kid under the bus to protect them from being struck by lightening.

    Like

  92. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 10:37 pm

    Formaldehyde is produced as normal part of metabolism on a daily basis at a concentration 10X the amount in any vaccine. The concentration of formaldehyde in vaccines doesn’t cause cancer any more than the amount produced on a daily basis in our body causes cancer.

    MRC-5 is a cell line derived from lung tissue from a 14 week old fetus. These cells are used to grow the virus needed to provide the antigens in the vaccine. The cells are not “lung tissue” and they are not an “ingredient” in vaccines. The cells are destroyed in the process and removed during the purification step of the vaccine manufacturing process.

    Your fear is based on your ignorance. You don’t understand the vaccine ingredients, so you mistakenly think they are dangerous.

    Like

  93. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    What about the millions of adults who have had chicken pox? Don’t you care about them? How can you stand there and only speak about the health of children? Children become adults someday. Shingles is a horrible disease and the natural path the virus used to take was….infection with chicken pox as a child……adults exposed to the wild virus from the children…..no shingles. So now the adults are getting shingles. And I don’t mean just a few. In our doctors office, we tried to keep track of the cases of shingles, in young people too, but lost count. Seems to be more active in the Spring and Fall. And no I do not have the double blind placebo study at hand, must have filed it away. 🙂

    Like

  94. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    Just curious, who do you work for Merck? Wyeth? GSK? Sanofi? or is it the government? CDC? Who? NIH? FIA? NWO?

    Like

  95. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    OMG! How could I be so wrong. Thank you miss Kelly for clearing up that mess. How about cocktails? I’ll bring the mix…formaldehyde and gin. yummy!

    Like

  96. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 10:58 pm

    I don’t work for any of those places, pro choice.

    Your mistake is in thinking that adults don’t get shingles if they are exposed to chicken pox. They do. Shingles existed long before the vaccine came out. The rate of shingles pre-vaccine is about 1 in 5. There is speculation, but little evidence to suggest that vaccination has changed this rate.

    So you would get chicken pox as a child and then have a 1 in 5 chance of getting shingles as an adult, even with exposure to children with chicken pox. The fate of the adults was determined when they got the disease as children.

    You are asking children to get chicken pox because you are ignorant of the epidemiology of the disease when a vaccine is available to lessen their suffering. Furthermore, expecting children to bear the burden of disease as children and then later as adults because you think it will lessen the suffering of adults is despicable. They are just children. Most parents would put aside their selfish wants to protect their children and prevent their child’s suffering. Only anti-vaxers have no regard for the well-being of children and promote their harm with their pro-disease choices.

    Like

  97. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    You are very welcome. Interestingly, you have no problem consuming alcohol, a known poison that does cause chronic conditions, but you are alarmed about the presence of a minuscule amount of formaldehyde in vaccines. You really do prefer a fantasy world over reality, don’t you?

    Like

  98. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    Really….you are just too serious for me. BTW, what do you do for a living? You people on this blog never reveal anything about yourselves. Ashamed?

    Like

  99. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    Not ashamed. My profession is irrelevant because I don’t rely on my authority to back my position. The science speaks for itself and I encourage people to make their own decisions. I just provide the information so that they can make an informed choice instead of the misinformed choice that you prefer.

    Like

  100. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    http://www.webmd.com/vaccines/features/shingles-chickenpox?page=2 Shingles has nearly doubled since 1993. I’m not asking children to bear the disease, how easily you can twist words, sounds like you have an evil thread in your veins. Hmmmmmm……do you believe in God?

    Like

  101. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 11:25 pm

    You are a coward.

    Like

  102. Kelly
    June 8, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Your own link defeats your position, prochoice.

    But there are some reasons to doubt that childhood chickenpox shots are responsible for the uptick in shingles. In their study, Bialek and colleagues found that shingles was on the rise even before the chickenpox vaccine was licensed for children in 1995. Also, adults in states with mandatory chickenpox immunization didn’t have higher rates of shingles than those in states where children weren’t as well-vaccinated, and therefore more likely to get sick and provide immune boosters to parents and grandparents.

    And yes, you are advocating that children suffer through chicken pox so that adults can get an immune boost to prevent shingles. This is what you said,

    adults exposed to the wild virus from the children…..no shingles.

    In order for adults to be exposed to the wild virus from children, the children have to get chicken pox. Why am I not surprised you don’t understand your own statements? Furthermore, you have completely ignored the research mentioned in the link that you provided no less, that suggests exposure to chicken pox may not prevent shingles.

    Like

  103. pro choice
    June 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    Kelly you are an adult cyber bully who likes to tear people apart. You are a devil’s priestess. I’m sure you enjoy your work promoting vaccines. Good luck with that. I hope if you have children someday they won’t be damaged by vaccines. You’ve been warned.

    Like

  104. Lara Lohne
    June 9, 2012 at 12:10 am

    pro choice, you have a lot of gall calling Kelly a cyber bully when all she has done is refuted every statement you have made, because they are false. That doesn’t make her a bully, it makes her informed and willing to share her information with someone who is less informed. The fact that you are taking such offense to being corrected actually shows how weak your position really is. You don’t have science on your side and any science you have provided actually itself refuted what you have claimed. You are just like any other typical anti-vax activist, when you aren’t able to win an argument, you fall back on the strawman tactic. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe it isn’t us that is wrong but you and that is why you feel so outraged when your argument or claim is blown out of the water? Just a little food for thought.

    Like

  105. Chris
    June 9, 2012 at 12:21 am

    Are you also afraid of dihyrdrogen monoxide? You do realize in sufficient quantities it can also kill you.

    Oh, and I actually make bovine extract, though I usually call it home made beef stock (made with lots of garden herbs and no salt).

    Do the emulsifiers for commercial ice cream also frighten you? From the wiki page for polysorbate 80: “In Europe and America people eat about 100 mg of polysorbate 80 in foods per day.[7] Influenza vaccines contain 25 μg of polysorbate 80 per dose.” (note: one mg = 100μg, so the doses are very very small with the vaccine having .025mg or 1/4000 of the amount of what one person typically eats per day)

    Pro-choice, you have revealed much about yourself in just a few short comments: you are scared of things because you refuse to learn about them.

    Like

  106. Chris
    June 9, 2012 at 12:34 am

    pro choice:

    What happens when our unvaccinated children come to school with chicken pox? You think your child will get infected…..but wait you vaccinated them….twice….they should be protected right?

    In our school district all children with vaccine exemptions will need to stay home if there is an outbreak. Also my children all got chicken pox the year before the vaccine became available. Since that is one month of my life I that included dealing with a very sick baby and a kindergartener who went to wetting his bed, plus the pain the kids went through I think anyone who wants kids to get chicken pox are cruel and sadistic.

    What about the millions of adults who have had chicken pox?

    They will need to get a shingles vaccine. Hopefully my kids will be the last generation who will have to get boosters for shingles.

    Shingles has nearly doubled since 1993.

    The baby boom started shortly after WWII until the early 1960s with the peak in 1957. The year you noted, 1993, happens to be very close to fifty years after start of the baby boom. The numbers of persons older than fifty, and eligible for the shingles vaccine, in this country also just about doubled since 1993. It is just simple demographics.

    Just curious, who do you work for Merck? Wyeth? GSK? Sanofi? or is it the government? CDC? Who? NIH? FIA? NWO?

    When you cannot present facts and evidence to the table, what is better than the old tired and boring fact free Pharma Shill Gambit.

    Like

  107. Nathan
    June 9, 2012 at 1:48 am

    It’s like the old chat rooms in Yahoo….a few people ruling the roost and if you try and get in and voice your opinion, BAM! You’re shot down, belittled and disrespected.

    Well, when you barge in with poorly supported opinions that endanger children’s lives, then, yeah, pretty much.

    Like

  108. Chris
    June 9, 2012 at 2:09 am

    Yahoo? My, you are a newbie. You have obviously never spent any time on UseNet newsgroups.

    You said: “shot down, belittled and disrespected. ”

    If you are going to venture out in the untamed Internet then you must actually grow a spine and a thick skin. In the over a decade I have been dealing with folks like you I have been called lots of names.

    Here are some helpful suggestions if you wish to avoid problems:

    1: Have actual evidence. Before you post a statement that you think is fact, have at hand the actual citation to support your statements.

    2: If you are challenged on the author’s qualifications have more citations to support your statement. The thing with real science is that it can be replicated, so you do not need to depend on on “maverick scientist.”

    3. Learn how to use PubMed. Figure out how to hit the “free full” to direct folks to a full and free paper for them to read the actual science.

    4. Figure out who has a financial stake in what they are telling you. Well that is covered in this handy dandy short book Lies, Damned Lies, and Science: How to Sort Through the Noise Around Global Warming, the Latest Health Claims, and Other Scientific Controversies and Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine..

    5. Actually post a relevant comment. Not on how it compares to Yahoo, but some actual evidence. Yeah, sure, we know you hate vaccines, but you must tell us why! We don’t want pithy retorts, we want real scientific verifiable data. So go get some!

    Show us that we are wrong! Do the vax/unvax study and get it published.Come on! You can do it! Show some back bone and get it done. Design those studies, get them approved by an IRB, get them funded and publish those studies. If you have the facts on your side that would be easy peasey. Go do it.

    And then present the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your statements.

    Like

  109. Th1Th2
    June 9, 2012 at 3:07 am

    I think anyone who wants kids to get chicken pox are cruel and sadistic.

    I think you’re being cruel and sadistic to your kids, infection-promoting Chris. Poor kiddos. Tsk…tsk

    Like

  110. Th1Th2
    June 9, 2012 at 3:15 am

    They will need to get a shingles vaccine. Hopefully my kids will be the last generation who will have to get boosters for shingles.

    Good riddance.

    Like

  111. June 12, 2012 at 7:44 am

    Un juez británico acaba de rehabilitar a Walker-Smith, que junto con Wakefield vió retirada su licencia por haber publicado ese trabajo:

    A British judge has exonerated professor Walker.Smith, that together with Dr. Wakefield had seen his license revoked after publication of their work on vacciens causing autism.

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/503.html

    The High Court verdict and accompanying commentary was quite damning on the General Medical Council and thus those that made some very public and private accussations against a team of medical professionals trying their very best to untangle the very complex etiology and pathology of a neurodevelopmental disorder.

    From the judge’s finding above it is quite reasonable to conclude that the GMC were deciding the fate of Prof. Walker-Smith to coincide with their own predetermined ends rather than with the evidence before them. This is usually described as a ‘witchhunt’.

    So vaccines do cause Autism after all ! Only telling us (the parents) what we already knew. Bringing matters of public health and safety to the wider public is an ethical and moral duty of any medical practitioner. It is now obvious after several Freedom of Information requests that the British Government was less than forthright and I’m being kind, in the previous administration and safety of not one but two MMR vaccines.

    Also an ethical and moral responsibility of the medical professional is to investigate each and every patient to the best of their professional ability. As to John Walker-Smith and his team he did that at the highest tertiary medical level, virtually starting from scratch and trying leave no stone unturned, pioneering some of the most valuable work we have on Autism, the Gastrointestinal system and the immune system.

    Like

  112. Lawrence
    June 12, 2012 at 8:25 am

    @putinreloaded – that would be news to Walker-Smith and his attorney, who admitted in open court that the MMR doesn’t cause autism. He was ultimately exonerated because he threw Wakefield under the bus and successfully claimed he was duped regarding the nature of the research being conducted and his only role was in treatment.

    Not exactly the “victory” you are claiming.

    Like

  113. Chris
    June 12, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    1: Wakefield is still not allowed to practice medicine in any country.

    2: They ruled that Walker-Smith had been fooled by Wakefield, and was a victim of Wakefield’s lies and fraud.

    3: No legal system can over rule science.

    4: There is no real science to show vaccines cause autism.

    5: And if you think lawyers should do medicine, then I suggest the next time you require medical attention (sprained ankle, an injury from a vehicular accident, high fever) that you visit a lawyer’s office instead of a medical clinic and see how far that gets you.

    Like

  114. lilady
    June 12, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    putinreload…try reading this about the GMC ruling…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/28/andrew-wakefield-mmr-vaccine

    He abused the children in his study by performing not-medically-indicated painful and invasive colonoscopies, lumbar punctures and unnecessary multiple blood draws. He blatantly falsified the childrens’ medical records and immunization records. He was paid to be a professional witness…deriving over $700,000 USD…paid by public tax dollars in the U.K. His patients were referred by the bottom-feeding lawyer who was part of the scheme to sue MMR vaccine manufacturers… not medical doctors.

    He also set up two offshore corporations in his wife’s name; one corporation to market a single antigen measles vaccine (once he established the bogus diagnosis of autistic enterocolitis). The other corporation was set up to market test kits to test for his bogus diagnosis. He lied to his employer hospital about conflicts of interest and the “evidence” of his bogus autistic enterocolitis ( each and every one of the study subjects’ bowel specimens fixed in paraffin blocks)…went “missing”.

    This is the sterling character…a disgraced de-licensed doctor…who you are supporting.

    Like

  115. a parent
    June 12, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Putinreloaded, I agree with you. It appears that the parents of the 12 children were at wits end with the bowel issues plaguing their children. If I had a child with chronic diarrhea and abdominal pain, I would do everything possible through medical interventions to diagnose the problem and treat it.

    Like

  116. Chris
    June 12, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Even if Wakefield had not fudged the data, it was still just a case series of twelve children. And they found no connection between any of the versions of the MMR vaccine the children had received and autism.

    The fact that Wakefield was wrong was shown in further research at the Royal Free Hospital:

    Lancet. 1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9.
    Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association.

    Vaccine. 2001 Jun 14;19(27):3632-5.
    MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association.

    BMJ. 2002 Feb 16;324(7334):393-6.
    Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study.

    Like

  117. a parent
    June 12, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    I tend to believe Putinreloaded’s link dated 2012….your link was from 2010. Thus the finding, “quashed”.
    For the reasons given above, both on general issues and the Lancet paper and in relation to individual children, the panel’s overall conclusion that Professor Walker-Smith was guilty of serious professional misconduct was flawed, in two respects: inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion. Miss Glynn submits that the materials which I have been invited to consider would support many of the panel’s critical findings; and that I can safely infer that, without saying so, it preferred the evidence of the GMC’s experts, principally Professor Booth, to that given by Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch and by Dr. Miller and Dr. Thomas. Even if it were permissible to perform such an exercise, which I doubt, it would not permit me to rescue the panel’s findings. As I have explained, the medical records provide an equivocal answer to most of the questions which the panel had to decide. The panel had no alternative but to decide whether Professor Walker-Smith had told the truth to it and to his colleagues, contemporaneously. The GMC’s approach to the fundamental issues in the case led it to believe that that was not necessary – an error from which many of the subsequent weaknesses in the panel’s determination flowed. It had to decide what Professor Walker-Smith thought he was doing: if he believed he was undertaking research in the guise of clinical investigation and treatment, he deserved the finding that he had been guilty of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure; if not, he did not, unless, perhaps, his actions fell outside the spectrum of that which would have been considered reasonable medical practice by an academic clinician. Its failure to address and decide that question is an error which goes to the root of its determination.

    The panel’s determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it. Miss Glynn, on the basis of sensible instructions, does not invite me to remit it to a fresh Fitness to Practice panel for redetermination. The end result is that the finding of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure are both quashed.

    ——————————————————————————–
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    URL: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/503.html

    Like

  118. Lara Lohne
    June 12, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    NONE of this has any baring on the validity of the ‘study’ Wakefield conducted which he claims showed causal link between the measles virus in the MMR vaccine and autism, or in his words, autistic enterocolitis. Whether or not Walker-Smith knew what was going on or not doesn’t change the fact that the data in the study was forged and tampered with to show the desired result, even though no other study has ever been able to repeat the results, unless Wakefield was involved somehow. A court ruling on whether or not one doctor was fooled by another and thus should have lost his license along with the director of the fraudulent study doesn’t change the fact that it was a fraudulent study, science is above the law which really is just a matter of personal opinion and not held up to the stringent requirements necessary in science.

    The fact that not all children with autism have intestinal problems should also be something that points away from vaccines based on the Wakefield study. My son has autism, was not vaccinated until well after his symptoms set in, and hasn’t ever had intestinal problems. Texture eating issues yes, but he poops as well as the next kid. Why is it so hard for the anti-vaccine camp to differentiate between scientific fraud and a court ruling and understand neither affects the other? It’s pretty clear to the rest of us.

    Like

  119. Lawrence
    June 12, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    @parent – so, Walker-Smith thought he was treating the kids, not conducting research….that changes what Wakefield did, how exactly?

    Like

  120. lilady
    June 12, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    “I tend to believe Putinreloaded’s link dated 2012….your link was from 2010. Thus the finding, “quashed”.

    Oh, wait. Wakefield appealed to the high court and his medical license was reinstated?

    Why didn’t anyone inform me of this?

    “parent” please provide the decision from the high court that decided this. Thanks.

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  121. June 13, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    The fact that so many people value and promote with religious-like fervor the snake oil claims of vaccine manufacturers just illustrates how preoccupied our society has become with quick fixes and lazy lifestyles. Regular exercise by the majority of the population would offer disease reduction, but pro-vaccine proponents seem apathetic on the issue. Interesting.

    Like

  122. Kelly
    June 13, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    I think you are confused, Kellie (aka research vaccines). Snake oil is something that doesn’t work. It is favoured by anti-vaccine parents in lieu of vaccinations. A good example would be homeopathy.

    Vaccinations have lots of scientific research supporting their efficiency. I would think someone shilling a book that encourages parents to do the research would be aware of the research supporting vaccines. I guess not, and it seems like you are just trying to take advantage of people’s uncertainty. All information a parent needs about vaccines can be found easily and for free on such websites as “Every Child by Two” (http://www.ecbt.org/), which is the source of this blog.

    Regular exercise will not prevent vaccine preventable diseases, but rather other conditions like heart disease and type II diabetes. Vaccine advocates don’t bring up exercise and healthy eating, not because these aren’t good things to promote, but rather, because they are totally irrelevant in the prevention of vaccine preventable diseases. This blog is about vaccines and the diseases they prevent.

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  123. June 13, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    I’m not confused at all…just making an observation. Exercise is known to strengthen the immune system, but rarely is it promoted as aggressively as vaccines. Same goes for breastfeeding, good nutrition and other health promoting, disease-preventing tools. Vaccine proponents often claim they are in it “for the children,” and yet they fail to offer a balanced view of disease prevention tactics. It seems that the good track record of healthy lifestyle habits is somehow threatening to the dogma of the almighty vaccine.

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  124. Kelly
    June 13, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    Kellie, you are very much confused. The pathogens that cause vaccine preventable diseases can defeat a healthy immune system fully boosted by exercise. These organisms are called pathogens because they cause disease even in healthy people.

    Breastfeeding is also not sufficient to prevent these pathogens from causing disease. If you did your research as you suggest, you would have learned that lots of breastfed babies died before we had vaccines.

    These are not promoted as aggressively because they simply don’t work. Exercise and breast-feeding are good for overall health, but useless against VPD. The best defense against these diseases is vaccines. Furthermore, vaccination does not interfer with exercise or breast-feeding.

    I’ve seen breast-feeding being promoted as a way to soothe a baby after vaccination.

    If you are not confused, then you are purposefully making strawmen to mislead people. Deceptive scam artist trying to get people to give you money for a worthless book or a confused, ignorant mother that hasn’t done her research, which one applies to you Kellie? Neither casts you in a very positive light, don’t you think?

    Like

  125. Th1Th2
    June 13, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    The best defense against these diseases is vaccines.

    “Discussing vaccination with a doctor is like discussing vegetarianism with a butcher.”

    But Kelly, Chris, lilady et al., are notorious infection promoters and discussing health with them is inappropriate.

    Like

  126. Lara Lohne
    June 13, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    From the time I was 1 and a half, I was swimming in the Summer (competitively when I got to be 5) and dancing in the Fall, Winter and Spring (tap, ballet, jazz and acrobatics). That is pretty vigorous exercise, if you’ve ever done it you know it is. None of that prevented me getting mumps, chicken pox or pertussis when I was a kid. The only thing that would have done is vaccines, yet my mom saw fit to not see the value in the science (or rather didn’t even acknowledge the science, as many others of her belief today.) These were daily activities and in excess of the running around outside with neighbor kids playing tag, hide and seek and any other number of games we would play outside. I still got sick, so your claim is false. As Kelly pointed out also.

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  127. a parent
    June 13, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    Fact: All of the children in the Wakefield study regressed into Autism and developed bowel disorders after receiving the MMR vaccine. Is there another common thread among these children besides the MMR vaccine?

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  128. Chris
    June 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Ms. Bischof (“researchvaccines”):

    Regular exercise by the majority of the population would offer disease reduction, but pro-vaccine proponents seem apathetic on the issue.

    Please show us that regular exercise is better, or at least as effective as the DTaP or Tdap for preventing diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Also do the same that a child who exercises would avoid measles, mumps and rubella with the same efficacy as the MMR vaccine. The scientific studies from PubMed showing that will provide some interesting reading.

    Also, what kind of exercise regime should I had my daughter do to prevent her from getting chicken pox? At least she was being exclusively breastfeeding, and was actually crawling, plus I took her to the “parent and baby” swimming class each week. So what kind of regular exercise do you recommend for six month old babies? Again, the scientific literature to support your answer should be fascinating.

    Since you are selling a book on how to research vaccines you must have a list of papers to support each and every one of your assertions. So it should be a simple matter of you looking those up and posting them here.

    Like

  129. Chris
    June 14, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Actually, if that was true it was still only a case series of twelve children. It was not a significantly sized study, and made even worse because it was not even a random study. Plus, your assertion fails because even in the now retracted paper one kid did not have those issues. It fails further when actual medical records show some occurred before the child received any version the MMR vaccine.

    Now, could you clarify something for me? Which MMR vaccine? During the time period when the children received an MMR vaccine there were at least three different ones used in the UK. Two had the Urabe strain, and one had the Jeryl Lynn strain for mumps. The one American had the MMR with the Jeryl Lynn strain (similar to the one that the UK switched to in 1992). I think there may have been a couple of different measles strains.

    So how could one MMR vaccine be a common thread where there were at least four different MMR vaccines used?

    Well, can we rule out the ones using the Jeryl Lynn strain of mumps? It has been used in the USA since 1971. If that was the culprit then there would be documentation of autism rising sharply over twenty years before Wakefield started his research. If you have data to the contrary please share the title and journal of the PubMed indexed papers dated before 1997 with that evidence.

    And since UK stopped using MMR vaccine with the Urabe strain for mumps in 1992, then Wakefield’s research is out of date. If the Urabe MMR vaccines were the causes, they were removed six years before he published. So it would be a non-issue.

    Except for the research fraud bit. And the several papers showing no connection starting with, this one done at the Royal Free:

    Lancet. 1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9.
    Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association.

    Like

  130. Lawrence
    June 14, 2012 at 5:34 am

    @parent – many of the “Wakefield” facts turned out to the fabrications & misrepresentations of data when investigated. If his work was so “revolutionary” why didn’t he take the opportunity to replicate his work in a larger study (he turned down the offer) – and why did he discontinue his “vital” research in lieu of paid speaking engagements & taking honorary salaried positions instead?

    Put that against Dr. Offit, who continues to practice medicine – seeing and treating patients, doing rounds at the Hospital, and being active in the research community as well.

    One of these individuals continues to put his money where his mouth is & support the general health of children & one of them seems to be in it for the money……Wakefield has made it painfully obvious which side he is on.

    As for exercise and diet improving the immune system – what diet & exercise do you recommend for an 1 year – 18month old child that could potentially be exposed to a variety of diseases with serious potential side-effects, including blindness, deafness, sterility, pneumonia, etc, etc, etc? I would love to know.

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  131. Chris
    June 14, 2012 at 10:36 am

    ” why didn’t he take the opportunity to replicate his work in a larger study (he turned down the offer)

    That was taken up by someone else, one result was the 1999 Lancet paper I posted.

    Like

  132. parker
    June 16, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Maybe someone on this thread can link me to an actual *control* study by researchers (not funded by pharma or feds) demonstrating no causal link between vaccs and autism? All the studies cited on this thread I’ve looked at are case-control studies which are not particularly scientific. Ideally, a control study would have under observation a sufficiently sized group of infants getting vaccs and the control not. If not human children, then with monkeys. Any studies like that? Thanks.

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  133. parker
    June 16, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    Maybe someone on this thread can link me to an actual *control* study by researchers (not funded by pharma or feds) demonstrating no causal link between vaccs and autism? All the studies cited on this thread I’ve looked at are case-control studies which are not particularly scientific. Ideally, a control study would have under observation a sufficiently sized group of infants getting vaccs and the control not. If not human children, then with monkeys. Any studies like that? Thanks.

    [Sorry for the repost.]

    Like

  134. Chris
    June 16, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    There are several different epidemiological studies. If you are not satisfied with them, then design a study, get it approved by an IRB and then write a grant to get it funded. I am sure that you can get funding from SafeMInds, Generation Rescue, etc.

    Because if you can actually properly evaluate a study, and have determined that the two dozen studies done in several countries on three continents are not sufficient: then you should be able to do the actual research.

    Like

  135. Chris
    June 17, 2012 at 12:24 am

    If you can tell how scientific a study is, then you can do it yourself. Until then you will just have to live with the dozens of studies that have been done over a decade, including some that I have posted on this thread.

    You should call up Sallie Bernard. She has actually participated in the design of one study. I am sure she would appreciate your input.

    Like

  136. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    The studies you linked were case-control studies not control studies… there’s a difference. If you can’t, don’t bother replying. Someone on this thread might know of one.

    Since you don’t know the difference, a control study involves conducting *controlled* experiments, collecting data first-hand, and performing analysis. This is called “science.” Until this is performed by reputable independent scientists free of conflicts, the question of vaccines causing autism remains unanswered.

    Here’s a Wikipedia article that might help you understand what a control study is… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_control

    Like

  137. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Go do it yourself.

    Like

  138. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Please read again: If you can tell how scientific a study is, then you can do it yourself.

    Now go design the study, and make sure it complies with Basic HHS Policy for Protection of Human Research Subjects, get it approved by a real IRB, and then write a grant. I suggest you get funding from SafeMinds, Generation Rescue and others.

    Because your wiki link (and I would have expected something a bit more sciency from someone who claims to be able to evaluate medical studies) says: “In a clinical trial, two (statistically) identical groups of patients are compared, one of which receives the drug and one of which receives a placebo.” So good luck complying with the federal regulations in the above link.

    If those regulations upset you, then go blame the researchers who used kids in Willowbrook School.

    Like

  139. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Out of curiosity, parker, how do you suggest the control babies are selected? What will be the reasoning you give to parents whose child ends up being in the control group and is disabled or dies from a VPD because they didn’t get the vaccine they thought they were getting? Are you aware there are already hundreds of children who have developed autism without vaccines, my son being one of them (even one of the ‘warrior mothers’ of the anti-vaccine movement has a child with autism who was not vaccinated and yet she still can’t see the truth)? But you refuse to accept this data because this data was collected by what you claim is a biased source, rather then a source who is determined to find some kind of fault with vaccines, which would be the anti-vaccine people, but, how is it that they aren’t biased and their data can be trusted? VPDs cause death and disabilities, that is known. The risk of purposely leaving vulnerable babies unprotected from these diseases in the name of what you consider to be science is abhorrent to me. It should be abhorrent to anyone who seriously considers the full picture of the study that you are suggesting.

    Like

  140. Just me
    June 18, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Parker should design a parachuted/unparachuted study of sky-diving first. He can be in the control group – parachutes are dangerous, after all.

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  141. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Just me :
    Parker should design a parachuted/unparachuted study of sky-diving first. He can be in the control group – parachutes are dangerous, after all.

    Would it be blinded? You have a parachute strapped to your back and then jump out of the plane?

    Like

  142. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Let’s try it this way parker. You claim there is a link between vaccines and autism. Until you provide a controlled study that demonstrates this link, then you’ve got nothing.

    Science cannot prove the negative. We cannot use science to say that there is absolutely no link. There just might be a very, small, insignificant chance that vaccines do cause autism, but the several controlled epidemiological studies already done suggest that this is highly, highly, highly unlikely.

    It is much more conclusive to demonstrate a link between autism and vaccines, and despite a couple dozen papers looking for a link, none have been found.

    Here is a list of studies to get you started: http://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/Documents/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Ideally, a control study would have under observation a sufficiently sized group of infants getting vaccs and the control not.

    This isn’t an ideal study, since, as others have mentioned, it violates ethical standards. Furthermore, the studies already done, answer the question. Just because you don’t like the answer nor understand how to conduct a scientific study doesn’t mean the studies are invalid.

    Like

  143. plenarchist
    June 18, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    @Chris – “Go do it yourself.” So, you’re saying there are none? Noted.

    @Lara Lohne – “Out of curiosity, parker, how do you suggest the control babies are selected? ” Use monkeys as human analogs. Done all the time.

    “Are you aware there are already hundreds of children who have developed autism without vaccines…” My son’s an aspie. So you’re son has not received vaccines? No, I’m not aware. Can you provide me with a link to such a study?

    “But you refuse to accept this data because this data was collected by what you claim is a biased source” I’m not making any claim about biased data. My argument is that only control studies can adequately answer the question. A control study isolates variables and is conducted under controlled conditions. It is also verifiable. Case-control studies are statistical exercises based on data mining. That’s not science; it’s statistics.

    “The risk of purposely leaving vulnerable babies unprotected from these diseases in the name of what you consider to be science is abhorrent to me.” I’m not suggesting that at all. What we need to know is whether the vaccines themselves pose a health risk. The idea of inducing mercury poisoning in infants is abhorrent to me. If the vaccines are a health hazard, safe vaccines must be developed. We shouldn’t be poisoning babies either, agreed?

    Since no one on this thread can offer to link me to a control study showing no causation, I’ll continue my quest for the truth elsewhere. Thanks.

    Like

  144. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    Sorry, I posted as plenarchist but I’m parker. Thanks.

    Like

  145. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Plenarchist:

    “Go do it yourself.” So, you’re saying there are none? Noted.

    Actually, they do exist. The were done before the early 1970s and before in places like Africa and institutions for disabled children. The hint for you was “Willowbrook.” I suggest you look it up.

    Here is one of those studies that meet your criteria. Now go and design a study that does not require the third and fourth column in the first table.

    Again, if you understood the science and how studies are done, designing the study, complying with federal regulations, getting approval from an IRB and funding it would not be a problem. As it is, I get a feeling you really don’t care about the health of children.

    And your grasp of the science is suspicious with this statement: “The idea of inducing mercury poisoning in infants is abhorrent to me.” Well, good for you. For at least a decade every single vaccine on the pediatric schedule has been available without thimerosal, including half of the influenza vaccines. It shows you cannot even keep up with the issues. And you are not really looking for truth, just justification for your beliefs.

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  146. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    @Kelly – “Let’s try it this way parker. You claim there is a link between vaccines and autism.”

    I’m not claiming anything. I want to read a *scientific* study (i.e. a control study) that shows there is no link. If there is, please link. If no, then fine but until I see the results from a control study, the question remains open with me. I’ve looked at each of the studies included in the link and they’re all case studies as far as I can tell. Correlation is not causation. A control study can be done with monkeys as human analogs. I know of the one but there were clear conflicts with the researchers so I don’t place much stock in it.

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  147. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Use monkeys as human analogs. Done all the time.

    Really? How many monkeys do you think you would need? What species of monkey? Show documentation that these monkeys are model organisms for all the diseases you plan to administer vaccines for, and have been used “all the time”, as you claim.

    My argument is that only control studies can adequately answer the question. A control study isolates variables and is conducted under controlled conditions. It is also verifiable. Case-control studies are statistical exercises based on data mining. That’s not science; it’s statistics.

    No, your interpretation of case-control studies is incorrect. The case-control study isolates variable by selecting a control group that wasn’t exposed to the variable of interest. You are confusing retrospective and prospective studies. What you seem to be asking for is a prospective study, which would be unethical because: (i) there is no reason to suspect a link between autism and vaccines based on the numerous retrospective studies done, and (ii) we know that the control arm (unvaccinated children) would be put at increased risk of harm.

    Further, both prospective and retrospective studies use statistics to analyze the data. The statistics is a tool used in science. So you are right that statistics is not science, but science that uses statistics is still science.

    The idea of inducing mercury poisoning in infants is abhorrent to me. If the vaccines are a health hazard, safe vaccines must be developed. We shouldn’t be poisoning babies either, agreed?

    Agreed, we shouldn’t be poisoning babies. However, vaccines are not poisons. Vaccines do not contain mercury and the small amount of thimerosal that was previously present in childhood vaccines and still present in some multi-dose vials does not induce mercury poisoning.

    Since no one on this thread can offer to link me to a control study showing no causation, I’ll continue my quest for the truth elsewhere.

    I’ve posted a link that describes several controlled studies. I guess you missed that?

    Like

  148. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    @Chris – “As it is, I get a feeling you really don’t care about the health of children.” As it is, I get the feeling you’re an insufferable troll. But I will look at the study you linked. Thanks.

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  149. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    Come on, Parker, tell us how they could have redone that measles vaccine study in Africa without needing the third and fourth column. Oh, and remember primates were used earlier in polio vaccines in the 1950s, even though they are not a good analog for humans. That is why ferrets are used in influenza studies.

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  150. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Correlation is not causation. A control study can be done with monkeys as human analogs. I know of the one but there were clear conflicts with the researchers so I don’t place much stock in it.

    Correlation is not causation, but you need to establish correlation to even start talking about causation. The linked studies don’t even establish a correlation.

    Monkeys are not model organisms in this situation, so no, you cannot do a prospective study with monkeys.

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  151. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    parker:

    As it is, I get the feeling you’re an insufferable troll.

    I am not the one who is mangling the science, still going on about thimerosal a decade when it was removed from pediatric vaccines, and pretending to know how to conduct human studies.

    And remember to read the link Kelly gave.

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  152. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    I want to read a *scientific* study (i.e. a control study) that shows there is no link. If there is, please link. If no, then fine but until I see the results from a control study, the question remains open with me.

    OK, but what do you do with that open question? Do you not vaccinate knowing that the risk of such is much greater than the risk that vaccines cause autism?

    What do you expect a “control study”, as you like to call it, will reveal that the other studies have not? What is the biological plausibility of vaccines causing autism? What evidence are you basing this plausibility on?

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  153. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    @Chris – “still going on about thimerosal a decade when it was removed from pediatric vaccines…” My son received these vaccines and will be suffering the affects of ASD his whole life. Our family want to know if he was harmed. We have a right to know.

    @Kelly – “What do you expect a “control study”, as you like to call it, will reveal that the other studies have not?” It’s not me who likes to call it a “control study”… It’s science. Experiment, observe, and evaluate. The scientific method. Statistical analysis on data dumps is not a responsible substitute. Which is why that isn’t science. Again, there would be no reason a control study using monkeys and reproducing the conditions could not be performed. “What is the biological plausibility of vaccines causing autism?” I don’t know, that’s why a control study should b e performed. We know the vaccines contained mercury and we know the toxicology of mercury and we know that there has been an increase in autism. Correlation should be enough cause to do a scientific study. I would think one would have been performed by now… Why not? Maybe a few million from the lobbying money pharma gives to political campaigns would cover the cost? As a parent, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

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  154. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    @Chris – The link you gave, “Efficacy of measles vaccine,” has nothing to do with autism. From 1962? Whatever.

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  155. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    My son is fully vaccinated now, but he wasn’t prior to the onset of symptoms (looking back some of which were present from birth I recalled, once I knew what autism symptoms entailed.)

    I really don’t believe that monkeys would make a good substitution to study human development. There are significant differences between humans and monkeys.

    If you read the symptoms of mercury poisoning and those of autism, you will find that there is nothing in common between the two of them, therefore your point about mercury is, well, nulled, especially since thimerosal has been removed from most routine pediatric vaccines. You are exposed to more mercury in a can of tuna then anyone has ever been exposed to in vaccines.

    I’d love for you to provide me with a credible resource showing how vaccines are ‘poisons’ because as we are all aware, bleach is also a poison, but in significantly tiny amounts is a great way to purify drinking water for storage, etc. The tiny amount of bleach will not kill you, but if you tried to drink an entire bottle, yeah, it might, you at least would become extremely sick. Therefore, in the amounts any ‘substance’ you might claim is poison are found in vaccines, there is no danger of toxicity.

    While we are all aware of the slight risk to vaccines, they are not anywhere nearly as risky as allowing the diseases they prevent to take hold as they are trying to now. Babies are dying of pertussis, children, adolescents and adults are being hospitalized and dying from measles, even chicken pox is causing disabilities and death. These things are really happening, and they are finding the highest number of infections in unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated individuals, or in infants too young to vaccinate.

    Failing to accept the data that has been collected and compiled in the only ethical way it could be done is cherry picking data. You choose not to believe what we are actually able to provide. If you refuse to accept that as the truth, I submit you aren’t really looking for the truth, but believe if a study was done that is unethical and puts the lives of babies at risk to VPDs it would prove your point. The problem is, even if that study was somehow done, and the results proved your belief incorrect, you’d find some way to discredit it. Science doesn’t lie, if what you are looking for can’t be found in the data that is available, your only option is to manipulate the data to prove your point, but that also is unethical, and that is why Mr. Wakefield is no longer a licensed doctor.

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  156. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    It’s not me who likes to call it a “control study”… It’s science. Experiment, observe, and evaluate. The scientific method. Statistical analysis on data dumps is not a responsible substitute. Which is why that isn’t science. Again, there would be no reason a control study using monkeys and reproducing the conditions could not be performed.

    Your argument is based on a false premise, parker. Retrospective studies are also a “control study” and is a perfectly legitimate substitute when it would be unethical to do a prospective study or it would take too long to do a prospective study. What should we do why we wait the 50-100 years until all the data is in from prospective study? Should we let people suffer harm from diseases we know we can prevent on the off-chance that the retrospective studies are wrong? That seems like a responsible substitute to you? Doesn’t to me.

    There is a reason why monkeys cannot be used parker, as I’ve already explained to you. Monkeys are not model organisms for autism. You would waste a whole lot of monkeys and still not answer the question because monkeys do not develop autism with or without vaccines.

    I don’t know, that’s why a control study should b e performed. We know the vaccines contained mercury and we know the toxicology of mercury and we know that there has been an increase in autism. Correlation should be enough cause to do a scientific study.

    So we should just waste a whole lot of monkeys because you have a hunch? Wow. I really wish it was that easy to get grant money and ethical approval. No, parker, you have to explain why such a study would be significant. We also know that mercury does not cause autism and the removal of thimerosal from vaccines has not decreased the incidence of autism. You missed the part in that we do not even have correlation. You are barking up the wrong tree, parker, and that’s why we don’t waste money on studies because some parent playing scientist without even knowing what science is thinks it’s a good idea. I think the money would be much better spent on finding the real cause of autism.

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  157. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    parker, I gave you a study as an example of what happens in an unvaccinated control group. I suggest you read Todd’s series on human study ethics. Then go and design a study, make it comply with federal regulations relating to human subjects, get it approved by an Independent Review Board, and then write a grant. I am very sure that SafeMinds and Generation Rescue would leap at funding the study you are proposing. Again, if you are unhappy with the more than a dozen studies in Kelly’s link on thimerosal, you should go do your own.

    As far as thimerosal, since that has not been in pediatric vaccines for a decade, then your proposal to study is too late. What you can do is read the link Kelly gave.

    So is your son’s case for thimerosal injury in this database?

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  158. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    @Lara – “I really don’t believe that monkeys would make a good substitution…” Monkeys are used for this purpose.

    “If you read the symptoms of mercury poisoning and those of autism, you will find that there is nothing in common between the two of them…”

    Symptoms of chronic mercury poisoning:

    irritability
    anxiety/nervousness, often with difficulty in breathing
    restlessness
    exaggerated response to stimulation
    fearfulness
    emotional instability
    lack of self control
    fits of anger, with violent, irrational behavior
    loss of self confidence
    indecision
    shyness or timidity, being easily embarrassed
    loss of memory
    inability to concentrate
    lethargy/drowsiness
    insomnia
    mental depression, despondency
    withdrawal
    suicidal tendencies
    manic depression

    These are all symptoms of aspies and also my son…

    “If you read the symptoms of mercury poisoning and those of autism, you will find that there is nothing in common between the two of them…” That’s not the point. If they do harm, safe vaccines must be found. And are infants over vaccinated? Chickenpox? Really? Now there is speculation we will be facing a shingles epidemic in seniors due to the chickpox vaccine…

    “Failing to accept the data that has been collected and compiled in the only ethical way it could be done…” Not true.

    “The problem is, even if that study was somehow done, and the results proved your belief incorrect, you’d find some way to discredit it.” Not true.

    “Science doesn’t lie…” Agreed, when it *is* science and done honestly.

    Sorry, but your post is a long series of non sequitors.

    Like

  159. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    Well, I’m off. I think my one question has been answered. As far as I can tell from the responses here there is yet no science establishing that vaccines don’t cause autism, but I’ll keeping searching for some answers. Thanks.

    Like

  160. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    You are misinformed parker. There is no mercury in pediatric vaccines in most situations. Another thing, autism cases have actually NOT increased, we have just become more aware and the diagnostic criteria have changed. Based on a UK study done recently, they found 1 in 100 adults now currently carry an ASD diagnosis, where before they were believed to only have a moderate to severe learning disability. These are adults that were missed as children, and not young adults either, but people in their 30’s, 40’s and even 50’s. These were found using the current criteria in the DSM IV. I also read that Autism Speaks will be conducting its own study here in the US. So, 1 in 100 adults with an ASD and 1 in 88 children with ASD? That is not that much of a difference, and how many more adults which have been referred to as ‘quirky’ or ‘an odd duck’ most of their lives also have an ASD that is undiagnosed? My partner and I believe he falls into this category. A self assessment came back positive for ASD, but we can’t use that as an official diagnosis and it’s very difficult to find experienced specialists who can evaluate adults in our state and still accept state funded medicaid. Remember two and three decades ago, the only children who were diagnosed were children who were moderately, severely or profoundly autistic, Asperger’s Syndrome was not even a part of the DSM and never mind about PDD-NOS either, because it didn’t exist because that is used for high, to mildly functioning ASDs but don’t actually have all the symptoms for autistic disorder. In order to get the truth, all data must be accounted for and taken into consideration. There has not been any rise, we are just more aware and better able to identify it now then we were before.

    Like

  161. Lawrence
    June 18, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    @parker – ever heard of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy? I think you’ve given us a perfect example of it….

    Like

  162. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    You haven’t actually listed any symptoms used to diagnose autism or any other ASD. I find one week every month that I am irritable, does that mean that one week per month I have mercury poisoning?

    If you would like, I can provide you with the diagnostic criteria used to determine if a child has an ASD, the information is directly out of the DSM IV. Let me know and I will provide it, but I can tell you that what you have listed are not actually symptoms used to diagnose an ASD.

    Like

  163. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    If the thimerosal that used to be in vaccines caused mercury poisoning these two things would have occurred:

    1: There would be lots of kids with pink skin.

    2: The rates of autism would have plummeted at least six years ago (David Kirby predicted, and then back peddled when it did not happen).

    parker:

    . As far as I can tell from the responses here there is yet no science establishing that vaccines don’t cause autism, but I’ll keeping searching for some answers.

    Except you will not accept answers unless they fit your goal posts. So how did your Autism Omnibus case go?

    Like

  164. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    @Lawrence – ““no true Scotsman” fallacy”… I don’t follow but then I don’t care either.

    @Lara – “I find one week every month that I am irritable, does that mean that one week per month I have mercury poisoning?” How about most of them on any given day? I *have* a child with ASD who has been through many evaluations. I know the symptoms… we live with them all the time.

    @All – I have my answer finally! There are no control studies (aka actual science) that have been done investigating any causal link between autism and vaccines. Whew! You could of just said, “No, there aren’t any.” Thanks.

    Like

  165. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Anxiety, irritability, emotional outbursts, fits of anger, violence, manic depression (AKA: bi polar disorder) etc.. These things may or may not manifest in a person who has been diagnosed with an ASD, but they are not what is used to determine the ASD, they are not the diagnostic criteria, they are simply a bi product of it. Even sensory integration disorder is co-morbid and not part of the ASD diagnostic set. I have a child with autistic disorder, quite different from Asperger’s Syndrome. The thing is, the behaviors that may result from the developmental delays known as ASDs can be over come, and the child can learn how to self regulate, but the autism or ASD doesn’t go away, because the ASD is not the things you have listed as mercury poisoning and mercury poisoning is not the same as ASD.

    From the DSM IV: Criteria for a Diagnosis of Autism
    1. A total of six (or more) items from heading (A), (B), and (C), with at least two from (A), and one each from (B) and (C)

    (A) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
    * Marked impairment in the used of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye – to – eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.
    * Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level.
    * A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people).
    * A lack of social or emotional reciprocity.

    (B) Qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
    * Delay in or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gestures or mime).
    * In individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others.
    * Stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language.
    * Lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level.

    (C) Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:
    * Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patters of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus.
    * Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals.
    * Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements).
    * Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects.

    2. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:

    (A) Social interaction.
    (B) language is used in social communication.
    (C) Symbolic or imaginative play.

    3. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett’s Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder.

    Nothing in any of these diagnostic criteria are anything close to what you listed as being used to diagnose mercury poisoning. While people with an ASD may have many of the same behavioral issues as someone with mercury poisoning, it is not those in themselves that make a person autistic. If these things listed above are not present, the person does not have autism. Therefore, my statement stands, mercury poisoning is not the same as autism and the symptoms of each are completely different.

    Like

  166. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    @All – I have my answer finally! There are no control studies (aka actual science) that have been done investigating any causal link between autism and vaccines. Whew! You could of just said, “No, there aren’t any.” Thanks.

    But, parker, there are actual scientific studies (aka science) that have been done investigating a causal link between autism and vaccines and the data does not support a causal relationship.

    This is what Lawrence was getting at with the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. You claim that no “true” science has been done in order to dismiss the scientific studies that answer the question you were asking. This is a fallacy because your definition of “true” science is a false ideal. You are defining science incorrectly so that you can claim that the studies don’t exist, when in fact, they do. I provided you a link to several that studied the problem directly. There are also others that indirectly support no causal association since vaccine ingredients don’t cause the symptoms of autism, as Lara explained to you.

    I don’t follow but then I don’t care either.

    Of course you don’t care because your position is faith-based and asking for evidence is just a smokescreen in attempt to give your faith some validity. However, other people do care to take the time to make rational decisions, and for that reason, people here have explained why your conclusion is based on faulty reasoning. We know that we aren’t going to convince someone in such blatant denial, but others may be listening in that do follow and do care.

    For example, when you first joined the thread, you made this demand,

    Maybe someone on this thread can link me to an actual *control* study by researchers (not funded by pharma or feds) demonstrating no causal link between vaccs and autism?

    but then you go on to suggest

    I would think one would have been performed by now… Why not? Maybe a few million from the lobbying money pharma gives to political campaigns would cover the cost? As a parent, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

    If scientists did as you asked, then you would dismiss the study as pharma funded if the results weren’t to your liking. The “no true Scotsman” fallacy involves moving the goal posts so that you can continue to deny the existence of evidence that defeats your position.

    Like

  167. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    ugh, screwed up the blockquote. The last part of the post above should read like this:

    but then you go on to suggest

    I would think one would have been performed by now… Why not? Maybe a few million from the lobbying money pharma gives to political campaigns would cover the cost? As a parent, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

    If scientists did as you asked, then you would dismiss the study as pharma funded if the results weren’t to your liking. The “no true Scotsman” fallacy involves moving the goal posts so that you can continue to deny the existence of evidence that defeats your position.

    Like

  168. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    parker:

    You could of just said, “No, there aren’t any.” Thanks.

    So what will you do with the confirmation that no studies have been done to your (uneducated) standards because they violate regulations put into place after ethical issues on the treatment of black men in Tuskegee and disabled children in Willowbrook? Do you plan to sue the vaccine manufacturers? Good luck with that:

    Omnibus Autism Proceeding
    Compensable__Dismissed__Sub-Total
    1____________3,815_____3,816

    (**HHS has never concluded in any case that autism was caused by vaccination.)

    Like

  169. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    @Lara – “But, parker, there are actual scientific studies …” Link please to a control study?

    To help you out, a control study is a scientific study using the scientific method which from freedictionary.com “is a method of investigation in which a problem is first identified and OBSERVATIONS, EXPERIMENTS, or other relevant data are then used to construct or test hypotheses that purport to solve it.” [emphasis mine]

    A case study is not science, it’s statistical analysis and data mining.

    “Nothing in any of these diagnostic criteria are anything close to what you listed as being used to diagnose mercury poisoning.” Wrong.

    Well, good luck with your disinformation campaign!

    Like

  170. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    parker:

    A case study is not science, it’s statistical analysis and data mining.

    And you know this because…?

    Again, if you are unsatisfied with the over a dozen studies showing no connection between thimerosal and autism, then go do them yourself. Because you seem to feel you know more science than the Institute of Medicine, and all of the respondent’s experts at the Autism Omnibus test cases (but not the petitioner’s experts). By the way, have you read the federal regulations on the human subject studies?

    Like

  171. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    parker, you are not understanding. Just because you, as an uneducated parent, *think* a retrospective epidemiological study is not science, doesn’t mean it is. You are simply wrong.

    This type of study does fit your definition of “control study”. The observation was a temporal relationship between MMR and autism. The experiment was to compare those with autism that had the MMR (experimental or test group) with those that didn’t (control group). The conclusion was that autism rates were the same in both groups, no correlation. Numerous studies were done. Here is the link again: http://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/Documents/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Here is an example from the above link:

    Uchiyama T et al. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 2007; 37(2):210-7
    Study of 904 patients with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). During the period of
    measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (MMR) usage, no significant difference was
    found in the incidence of regression between MMR-vaccinated children and nonvaccinated
    children. Among the proportion and incidence of regression across the
    three MMR-program-related periods (before, during and after MMR usage), no
    significant difference was found between those who had received MMR and those
    who had not. Moreover, the incidence of regression did not change significantly
    across the three periods.
    AUTHOR CONCLUSION: The data do not support an association between MMR
    and autism.
    http://tinyurl.com/6c6o4r

    Like

  172. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    @Chris – “And you know this because…?” Because I can read English. You?

    As I posted above, science involves *experiments* and *observation*… Something we learned in grade school… How much of that is done in a case study?

    But never mind. I understand now that this site is apparently operated by ECBT which is funded by Pfizer. I’ve been wasting my time here all along… But you had me going there! Good for you.

    Like

  173. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    Plus, the ten years after thimerosal was removed should have formed a data set. And it did:
    Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24
    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde

    Then there are all of the studies done with the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.

    I am also at a loss why parker thinks that statistical analysis should not be used in science. Has he never heard of epidemiology? Did they “data mine” when they collected the data of cancer between smokers and non-smokers after WWII? Did John Snow “data mine” when he checked the wells versus cases of cholera? Parker, are going to dismiss those studies?

    Like

  174. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    parker, I am asking what graduate level education you have in science. Have you ever taken bio-statistics? I’m just a lowly engineer, and I know that it is not ethical to treat children like metal parts in a stress machine. I also know that statistical analysis is required, especially for vibration and fatigue tests. So I kind of wonder why you don’t like it.

    Like

  175. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    @Chris – “thinks that statistical analysis should not be used in science…” I didn’t say that did I? To conduct a control study, you conduct *experiments* and collect *data* upon which you perform an analysis which uses *statistics*… That’s a control study. In an experiment, variables are controlled and qualified people supervise. With a case study, there’s no way to know how good the data is, under what conditions it was collected, yada yada…. This is not rocket science… or any kind of science for that matter. A case study is a mathematical exercise that can show “plausability” like correlation but not impart anything conclusive.

    “I’m just a lowly engineer, and I know that it is not ethical to treat children like metal parts in a stress machine..” I’m an engineer. And what do you mean, “treat children like metal parts..” Huh? I’m not suggesting that. Maybe a study could be done in which one group is given timely vaccines and another delayed after an adequate observational period… Or use monkeys. Monkeys are used all the time to study toxicology.

    Resistance by anyone to even do any kind of control study though makes me very suspicious of their motives. Poisoning infants for fun and profit would seem to be their main reason for arguing against control studies.

    Like

  176. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    parker, there is a difference between a case study and a case-control study. See, that inclusion of the word “control” changes the meaning completely. The link provided are to case-control studies.

    This is a link to a textbook called “Basic Epidemiology” (warning this is a huge PDF file, 226 pages) which explains the different study designs used in epidemiology.

    http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2006/9241547073_eng.pdf

    Like

  177. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    @Kelly – “there is a difference between a case study and a case-control study” I know. I’m saying “case” study because I’m lazy. A control-case study is not a control study, right? There are no experiments, no direct observations, no analysis of data produced by the experiment in a case-controlled experiment, is there? My understanding is that there isn’t. If it’s not done under controlled conditions and is reproducible… it’s not science… it’s fuzzy science. And fuzzy science is full of uncertainty and error.

    Like

  178. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    Maybe a study could be done in which one group is given timely vaccines and another delayed after an adequate observational period… Or use monkeys. Monkeys are used all the time to study toxicology.

    This is a study from the list I gave you that compares the amount of exposure to thimerosal (different number of vaccine doses and thimerosal-free doses) and autism. Guess what? No correlation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16818529

    To do the type of study you propose prospectively, would be considered unethical because we know those on a delayed schedule are at an increased risk of harm from getting vaccine preventable diseases. You cannot design a study that knowingly puts the control group in harm’s way.

    And again, monkeys are not a model organism for autism. You are not studying toxicology. You are studying whether vaccines cause autism. The observable outcome would be the development of autism.

    Like

  179. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    So you want to experiment on children? Good luck with that study design. I would no more give a child a placebo that makes them vulnerable to tetanus and diphtheria just as I would never strap one into a Tinius-Olsen tensile/compression tester. Sure, if I am very careful i could keep the stretching and crushing to reasonable level (I was known for my fine touch with the controls,but that was years ago in college when I spent hours with the thing), but there is always that very high probability of something going very wrong.

    How would you guarantee that no child in the placebo group would be harmed from any vaccine preventable disease? How many would be sacrificed to pertussis, hib or tetanus? What would you learn that has not been already shown? Especially with the availability of thimerosal-free versions of all pediatric vaccines (including influenza).

    Like

  180. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    A control-case study is not a control study, right?

    Wrong. Your understanding is lacking. There is direct observation and analysis of data (remember, using the statistics that you despise). There is an experimental group and a control group. The word “control” is used to differentiate it from a case study that doesn’t have a control. You really thought they only threw “control” in there because it is too hard for lazy people like yourself to type?

    The lack of association between vaccines and autism has been repeated several times, by researchers in several different countries, during different time frames, and using different approaches and they all get the same answer. In fact, not a single study has been done that suggests correlation between autism and any vaccine. The dozens of studies done all suggest no correlation. Some of those studies are listed in this link: http://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/Documents/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Here’s a newsflash for you: All science is full of uncertainty and error. The amount of uncertainty and error goes down considerable when many researchers over a long period of time using different study designs reach the same conclusion. It’s like trying to figure out the picture in a jigsaw puzzle using just one piece of the puzzle. With just one piece there is lots of uncertainty and error, but as you place more and more pieces, it becomes easier to make an accurate prediction of what the picture is, even if not all the pieces are there. We have placed enough pieces in the puzzle of what causes autism to know that the picture is not vaccines. We haven’t placed enough to know what the real cause is yet. To keep directing research funds to investigate what we know it is not, is taking away from doing studies into what it could be.

    Like

  181. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    Kelly:

    And again, monkeys are not a model organism for autism.

    So how can you tell if a monkey is autistic? Doesn’t that remind you of Hornig’s frantic mouse study (paid for by SafeMinds)?

    Like

  182. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 11:25 pm

    Kelly:

    To keep directing research funds to investigate what we know it is not, is taking away from doing studies into what it could be.

    It is also taking away from services needed by disabled adults, like my son. Newsflash, parker, he had seizures from actually getting a disease before there was a vaccine. So don’t dismiss the risk of real injury from the actual diseases.

    Like

  183. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    @Kelly – “This is a study … Guess what? No correlation.” I’ll read it. Thanks.

    “And again, monkeys are not a model organism for autism.” If there are physical characteristics common to the autistic human brain, similar physical characteristics should be evidenced in monkeys. This should be measurable in the brain physiology. And if there are significant abnormal behaviors in the exposed group, that would be a strong indicator of affect. If not, case closed.

    @Chris – “So how can you tell if a monkey is autistic?” You don’t need to. If the exposed group exhibits significant abnormal behaviors, then you know the vaccines have an affect. If brain physiology is different in the exposed group, then you know there is link. The affect might manifest differently in humans, but that is not as important a question.

    Like

  184. Kelly
    June 18, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    But parker, why would you sacrifice a whole bunch of monkeys looking for some mysterious alteration in brain physiology? You’re going to have to be a lot more specific if you expect to get that past an experimental animal review board. You just don’t get to round up a bunch of primates so that you can murder them some time in the future for no reason. Vaccines have not been associated with autism in humans, what makes you think it’s going to be different in monkeys? And if it is different, who cares? My children may act like monkeys sometimes, but they aren’t monkeys.

    Like

  185. Chris
    June 18, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    Good, then go design that study and get it done. But it obvious if Laura Hewitson, PhD failed (animals disappeared from the study group, and oddly enough she marked brain growth as abnormal), I don’t see much hope for you with your limited experience with biological tests. Plus large animal studies are very expensive, and recently subject to more rigid ethical rules. You have to have a real reason to perform tests on them, especially if you plan to kill them in the end.

    Like

  186. Lara Lohne
    June 18, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    I don’t believe anyone is ‘resistant’ to the idea of doing what you propose, but none of us can see a way to do it ethically to get any results worth noting. This debate has been over and done as far as science is concerned and we all feel it’s time to put the money that has used (apparently wasted since you still refuse to accept the results) to better use and actually find out what it causing autism, in humans since I haven’t heard there is a huge concern about autistic primate lately.

    I’d like to know where anyone here has said anything about poisoning children. I’ve certainly never read it here. I’ve read a lot about chelation and MMS being done on children with autism in an attempt to ‘cure’ them. So, who is poisoning children now? That couldn’t be the pot calling the kettle black, could it?

    Like

  187. parker
    June 18, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    @Kelly – “Wrong. Your understanding is lacking. There is direct observation and analysis of data (remember, using the statistics that you despise). There is an experimental group and a control group.”

    The example you gave me, “Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations” involved no direct observation. It was a sample size of 27000 and there were all kinds of faceless, nameless people making the records…

    Give me an example of a control study in which the investigators supervised the experiments on screened test subjects (monkey or human) and performed the data analysis on their own data… Is there such a study? It really is a simple question.

    All you’ve given me are studies done by statisticians combing through medical records. Who did the behavioral assessment to determine autism? Unknown teams of who-knows-who with who-knows-what qualifications and who-knows-how consistent their methodology…. These are not CONTROLLED experiments and observation.

    Again, this isn’t science.

    Like

  188. parker
    June 19, 2012 at 12:02 am

    @Chris – “But it obvious if Laura Hewitson, PhD failed…” I read the original published study and the COI statements, so I dismissed the study. I was not familiar with Wakefield at the time.

    Hewitson’s study is irrelevant because it appears to not have been an honest study. So it doesn’t tell us anything. And yet, her methodology looked pretty reasonable to me. I would be interested in seeing her study repeated by an independent and qualified research team.

    Like

  189. Th1Th2
    June 19, 2012 at 12:40 am

    Oh, and remember primates were used earlier in polio vaccines in the 1950s, even though they are not a good analog for humans. That is why ferrets are used in influenza studies.

    You must have confused children as monkeys Chris.

    In 1936 there was an ultimately lethal competition between two would-be vaccine inventors, Maurice Brodie at NYU and John Kollmer at Temple University. Brodie concocted a “vaccine” from an emulsion of ground-up spinal cords of infected monkeys. He attempted to deactivate the virus by exposing the vaccine to formaldehyde, phenol, and polio antiserum. He tried the vaccine on twenty monkeys, and with that woefully inadequate experimental base conducted a human trial with three thousand children. The vaccine was of little or no value and was associated with severe side effects. His research career was destroyed, and he later killed himself.
    Even worse was Kollmer’s vaccine. He attempted to attenuate polio virus obtained from monkey spinal cords. He created a stew of spinal cord tissue and various chemicals and refrigerated the mixture for two weeks. He used it on a few monkeys, himself, his children, and twenty-two others. Hew as so convinced of the value of his vaccine that the distributed thousands of doses to physicians around the country. This vaccine caused many cases of polio, some fatal. It probably had no value as a vaccine. At a medical society meeting in 1935 he said, “I wish the floor would open up and swallow me.”

    The Vaccine Controversy: The History, Use, And Safety Of Vaccinations. p.90-91

    Because for Chris, 20 monkeys are worth more than 3000 children. So how’s your little monkey Chris?

    Like

  190. Kelly
    June 19, 2012 at 12:41 am

    All you’ve given me are studies done by statisticians combing through medical records.

    Well, medical records are where you find diagnoses recorded. Where do you think they should have looked for the data?

    Who did the behavioral assessment to determine autism? Unknown teams of who-knows-who with who-knows-what qualifications and who-knows-how consistent their methodology

    Well, let’s see, from the paper – 155/180 – “have been diagnosed at the Montreal Children’s Hospital.” Are you saying that experts at a world famous children’s hospital would lack the qualifications to use the DSM to diagnose PDD? Who do you think should make the diagnosis?

    The variables is the amount of exposure to thimerosal. The experiment part was incorporated as part of history. The amount of thimerosal varied with time. Some kids got no thimerosal, some got a moderate amount, others got a high amount. Then the tested outcome, PDD, was compared to the exposure of thimerosal. Result: no correlation found.

    This is exactly what you want to do, but you want to take a selection of kids, divide them into the three groups, and then measure who has PDD yourself. You don’t have too. The data is already there. Furthermore, how are you going to sell that to parents? Informed consent would mean you would have to say, “Hey, come enroll in my study. I think that if I give kids high doses of thimerosal they are going to a PDD. Now step right up!” Would you sign your kid up for that?

    Like

  191. Chris
    June 19, 2012 at 12:47 am

    parker:

    Again, this isn’t science.

    Again, what qualifies you to define what is or is not science? As a vibration engineer I depended lots on statistics. Epidemiology is based on science and statistics. So now it is not a science just because you say so? So all epidemiology studies can now be thrown out, because you say so? Snow’s research on wells and cholera can now be thrown out, and also every single study on smoking and cancer?

    Like

  192. Th1Th2
    June 19, 2012 at 12:48 am

    Actually, they do exist. The were done before the early 1970s and before in places like Africa and institutions for disabled children. The hint for you was “Willowbrook.” I suggest you look it up.

    Oh the horrible vaccine experiments performed on mentally retarded children? No wonder Chris is a strong advocate. Res ipsa loquitur.

    Like

  193. Kelly
    June 19, 2012 at 12:49 am

    Oh darn, parker, I just found this at the end of the paper. Turns out that one of the investigator’s was involved in the majority of diagnoses! Hooray! Your criteria were met, so are you going to accept the results now?

    Several limitations of our study must be acknowledged. First, we relied on administrative codes for the diagnosis of PDDs, and children could not be individually assessed for diagnostic confirmation. Nevertheless, the majority of children attending this school board with a PDD diagnosis were diagnosed in the tertiary medical center where one of us (E.F.) leads a specialized assessment team, and, therefore, the diagnostic assessment of this sample should be viewed with confidence in many cases.

    Like

  194. Lawrence
    June 19, 2012 at 9:03 am

    @parker – you’ve fallen for the “No True Scotsman” fallacy hook, line & sinker. No study will be adequate in your eyes, because you’ve created a vision of what it should be that has no relation to the actual obstacles to such a study or what the normal process is for this type of research.

    You claim that monkeys (though not specifying the actual species you’d use) are analogous without offering any proof that they actually would be.

    You also have no issues or problems with the ethical problems with the aforementioned Vax vs. Un-vax study.

    You also ignore the mountains of science, research, and studies that have already been done & cited here (and in many of the other articles here, PubMed & elsewhere) because they don’t conform to your “Nirvana” ideal.

    Continue to live in that bubble of yours – because your belief system has no relation to what actually occurs in the natural world (and don’t even get me started on Insane Troll – because that person doesn’t even live in this reality, much less on this planet).

    It must have been too embarrassing for it to hang around RI – so it has landed here as its new stomping ground.

    Like

  195. Th1Th2
    June 19, 2012 at 11:36 am

    One in 88 children are diagnosed with autism and let’s assume half of them are mentally retarded, how many monkeys will be saved in the real world Lawrence?

    Like

  196. Lawrence
    June 19, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Well, we know with 100% certainty which category you fall in.

    Like

  197. Chris
    June 19, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    Lawrence:

    No study will be adequate in your eyes, because you’ve created a vision of what it should be that has no relation to the actual obstacles to such a study or what the normal process is for this type of research.

    Which is why I often reply that if they do not find dozens of studies done over the last several years adequate, then they should do it themselves. I will point out the federal regulations on the use of human subjects the need for IRB approval, and that they have to find a way to fund the study.

    For once, I would like someone at least attempt to go through the process. That way we would not have to hand feed them every little nuance of the ethical issues. They claim they know how to do science better than those who work at it their entire lives.

    Parker had no clue why I had to dig back into the 1960s to find double-blind placebo controlled test on vaccines. It did not even occur to him/her that because children were actually harmed, along with those in institutions for disabled children that those kinds of tests are now illegal, and would never be approved by an IRB. I now wonder if he/she figured out why future tests should not have the third and fourth column in Table 1 (those were deaths).

    It annoys me that it should take so much trouble to get them to understand that their whims on how to do scientific studies on children are dangerous.

    Like

  198. Lawrence
    June 19, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    @Chris – I expect that parker will be back this evening with more whining about how it should be perfectly fine to withhold potentially life-saving vaccines (in a double-blind test even) from children, since it is being done for the “Science.”

    Medical studies are halted all the time, when one treatment provides such positive benefits, that it would be unethical to withhold it from the placebo group – and conversely, studies are also halted all the time when a treatment turns out to be worse than placebo…..there is a reason that medical testing is done with rigorous controls in place to prevent harm (especially when it would be done on purpose – such as withholding treatment).

    Despite what the anti-vaccine crowd likes to think, there are very robust medical ethics in play here.

    Like

  199. Chris
    June 19, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Then, Lawrence, Parker is free to go design such a study, with or without thimerosal vaccines even though there are thimerosal free vaccines available for the entire pediatric schedule, as long as he/she complies with federal law and gets it approved by an IRB. I am sure that SafeMinds will be glad to fund it.

    Until then, he/she has no reason to whine at us.

    Like

  200. Lara Lohne
    June 19, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    I still don’t comprehend why people don’t get that if vaccines were causing autism, there should be much, much more then there is since by far more children get vaccines then not, and we also shouldn’t see any autism in the unvaccinated and that also is happening, my son being just one of many hundreds of examples.

    It’s too easy to accept what one wants to believe instead of accepting the truth because the truth would mean that perhaps, it might be something they have no control over. It’s so much easier to blame something or someone then it is to just get past the fact that your child has autism and now that you know it, you can move forward with the best therapies that will help your child.

    I don’t know why they think I don’t understand their point of view. I’ve been entrenched in the anti-vaccine lifestyle. I lived it, I breathed it and when it came time for my own children to be born, I realized vaccines were not the devil and could help keep my children safe from diseases that I had to suffer through when I didn’t need to. I also have a child with autism and ya know, sure it would be nice if there were someone or something to blame it on, but it wouldn’t change he fact of his diagnosis and it would still be up to me to give him the best chance at life, and the most happiness that I have the ability to give him.

    This vaccine debate is old, tired and all but dead. All of us need to move on. I don’t believe autism can be cured, that’s almost as silly as trying to put tooth paste back in the tube after it’s been squeezed out. But I do believe, if resources can be utilized correctly, and no longer focused on something that science has proven again and again is not plausible, we may be able to to find the cause, and in finding the cause, we may be able to prevent it from happening to others (and I don’t mean prenatal screening to allow for abortion, since there is evidence showing there is something, aside from genetics, to account for its development.) Anyway, I gotta go do dishes and make dinner now so later everyone!

    Like

  201. Lawrence
    June 19, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    @Lara – agree wholeheartedly. The first thing people need to realize is that Autism is “developmental delay” not developmental stasis. Over time, most autistic children improve, some very dramatically, a bit here and there. Instead of investing in quack science, these parents need to be encouraged to seek out the various therapies and early interventions that have shown real promise and real results in assisting those with autism.

    Far too much money, time and influence is being wasted having these stupid discussions – it isn’t the vaccines morons & you are doing your children a disservice by labeling them as “damaged.”

    Just talk to the many adult autistics out there & you will realize that your children can grow up to live very happy and productive lives.

    Like

  202. June 20, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    It’s very effortless to find out any topic on web as compared to books, as I found this paragraph at this site.

    Like

  203. lilady
    June 20, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    alprazolam is a spammer. I don’t read Spanish too well…but I see a “Quack Miranda Disclaimer” and alternative medicine *treatments/cures* on his/her website.

    Like

  204. anonymous
    June 20, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2160054/MMR-A-mothers-victory-The-vast-majority-doctors-say-link-triple-jab-autism-Italian-court-case-reignite-controversial-debate.html#
    An Italian court ruled “causation” in a case involving a young boy who became autistic after receiving the MMR.

    Like

  205. Lara Lohne
    June 20, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    I don’t know anything about this dailymail web site, but based on the other titles on the side bar, it is no more then a tabloid celebrity sensationalism site and not even reporting real news. There are quite a few inconsistencies in the story; at nine months of age, vaccines are not given in the arm, but in the thigh, the MMR is not given at nine months of age because it has been found that a child cannot produce a proper immune response to allow immunity to the wild viruses. According to the Italian vaccine schedule, the first dose of MMR is not given until 12 – 14 months of age http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/italy.html. Finally, a court of law is not science and therefore, no matter what an Italian judge may decide in a court of law it does not over turn decades of research to the contrary of his pronouncement.

    After reading the story, there are numerous contradictions throughout, the most blatant one being first stating he received the MMR at nine months and then later a quote from the mother that he got it at 15 months. Another factual misconception is the statement that “Autism covers a huge range of developmental disorders which affect a child’s communication, social skills, and ability to lead a normal life.” Autism is actually one disorder in a range of disorders that make up the Autism Spectrum Disorder, or what would give a person a diagnosis or educational label of ASD, not the other way around. Not only is this statement false, but it is insulting to the vast majority of adults with ASD who are in fact leading normal lives. I also dislike the statement that autism and other ASDs are a curse. My son is a joy, he is a challenge, but he is a joy, not a curse and the idea of anyone viewing their child that way is appalling.

    This also neglects to point out that there was a recent UK study that shows the number of adults that have now been diagnosed with an ASD are not that far off from children being diagnosed now so there really hasn’t been the sharp climb in cases, we are just more aware and the diagnostic criteria is better then it was 20, 30 and 40 years ago. Remember back then the condition was blamed on cold, unfeeling mothers. At least we have learned that isn’t the case. The numbers quoted also as being 1 in 64 is incorrect and exaggerated, according to the National Autistic Society, a count (done in 2006) is 1 in 100 and they don’t have any way of knowing any closer then that based on their own admission and the need of doing massive epidemiological surveys of large populations over years.

    This isn’t news, even if a court of law did rule this way, it isn’t science and doesn’t change science. The dailymail is a rumor mill for celebrity gossip and sensationalistic stories. Anyone who puts their faith in the stories found there, I could almost believe they deserve to die from VPDs.

    Like

  206. Squirrel
    September 12, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Hot off the presses: success in gene-based diagnostic tools for ASD’S: Here is a link to the new study http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/mp2012126a.pdf

    Like

  207. Lara Lohne
    September 13, 2012 at 1:05 am

    @Squirrel, Holy Smokes! That’s amazing news, that is. A genetic based diagnostic tool for predicting at risk infants. I’m sure it could also be used, once it’s more fine tuned, to diagnose those who are now adults that were overlooked as children too and allow them to get the assistance and services they need to continue to cope with life. It’s definitely promising news! Thanks for sharing.

    Like

  208. September 13, 2012 at 5:40 am

    @Squirrel – wow, my reading material for the day. At first glance, it looks extremely interesting & promising…..

    Like

  209. Joe
    November 6, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    @Lawrence, Your full of statistics like 1 in 1,000,000 this and 1 in 1,000 that, funny how they’re always exactly a round thousand or million, if there was any truth to any of these numbers they’d be like, 1 in 492,761 or something.
    I’ve often read that Garrien Barre syndrome is a rare side effect of vaccines affecting less than 1 in 1,000,000. I personally know two people who have contracted it immediately following a flu shot and I don’t even know 1,000 people.
    There is one statistic I know to be true: 99.999% of statistics are made up on the fly.

    Like

  210. November 6, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    @Joe or Mick or whomever you will claim to be next – you obviously have no idea how statistics work, how they are calculated and presented.

    Learn how to do math, learn how to spell, and how to do actual research, then perhaps you can develop an actual factual opinion….until then, you’re nothing but hot air.

    Like

  211. Chris
    November 6, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Lawrence, Joe/Mick also has no idea how lame it is to revive a two month old thread when there are more recent relevant articles to expose his lack of basic research and math skills.

    Like

  212. Gray Falcon
    November 7, 2012 at 10:11 am

    @Joe: Let me explain to you something. Statistics and probabilities are, by definition, estimates. If somebody came out with a value of “1 in 492,761”, that would look incredibly suspicious. Also, you have yet to prove that either of those cases you mention were caused by the flu shot, only that they took place shortly afterwards.

    Like

  213. novalox
    November 7, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @joe

    You really don’t have any ideas about how statistics work, don’t you, necromancing sock puppet?

    At least you are confirming your place on the D-K curve.

    Like

  214. Joe
    November 7, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    The Joe above is not the same Joe that has been posting here. It’s a new Joe

    Like

  215. Joe
    November 7, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    novalox, you’re such a peach.

    Like

  216. Gray Falcon
    November 7, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Joe :
    The Joe above is not the same Joe that has been posting here. It’s a new Joe

    With the exact same claim about knowing two people with side effects from the flu shot?

    Like

  217. novalox
    November 7, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    @joe

    Thank you for admitting that I am better than you.

    And your tacit admission that your argument is without merit.

    Like

  218. Joe
    November 7, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Gray, I guess it’s a coincidence or a set up Gray….but that Joe wasn’t me.
    novalox, ???

    Like

  219. Gray Falcon
    November 7, 2012 at 8:39 pm

    Joe :
    Gray, I guess it’s a coincidence or a set up Gray….but that Joe wasn’t me.
    novalox, ???

    Joe, every time you commented, your whole argument was built on the idea that there are no such things as coincidences. You put your child on a special diet, then he shows perfectly normal signs of development: Clearly, it had to be the diet that did it!

    Like

  220. Joe
    November 7, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    Gray, if you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative.

    Like

  221. Gray Falcon
    November 7, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    Joe :
    Gray, if you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative.

    Joe, please do not lie about what I said. I never said that diet didn’t play a part in health, I asked for evidence that a specific diet had a specific effect.

    Like

  222. Joe
    November 7, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    Hilarious Gray….try diets our for yourself and see what happens…then you can report back to me.

    Like

  223. Lara Lohne
    November 7, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    There is no diet that can have any kind of effect on ASD. That is known. While there may be some people with sensitivities to foods that have bowel issues which can be painful and the pain can increase certain autism behaviors (temperament and/stimming) all a diet eliminating those foods the person is sensitive to will do is alleviate the bowel issues and relieve pain. The autism is still just the same as it always was. For those who have no physical issues, diet will not have any effect at all on anything. This is also known (not to mention that it’s common sense and logical.) Also something to keep in mind, ‘diet’ generally means specialized food for a specialized reason. Healthy eating is simply healthy eating and that is lifestyle, not a diet. Maybe I’m being nit picky but there is a difference between the two.

    Like

  224. Gray Falcon
    November 7, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Joe :
    Hilarious Gray….try diets our for yourself and see what happens…then you can report back to me.

    Joe, you deliberately lied about what I said, I do not have any obligation to trust you.

    Like

  225. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Lara, (the open minded person)….you ae flat WRONG.
    Gray, you are way to serious and like lots of drama…don’t you.
    Thanks….you guys just made my day!

    Like

  226. November 8, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    @Joe – can to provide anything at all that looks like actual proof?

    Like

  227. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    Joe, you claimed I said something I never did. How is that not lying?

    Like

  228. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Gray,

    Here’s what you said, ” You put your child on a special diet, then he shows perfectly normal signs of development: Clearly, it had to be the diet that did it!”

    Here’s what I said, “Gray, if you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative.”

    Now what did I lie about exactly? You clearly state that changing diet does not affect ones health, that you don’t believe changing my sons diet changed his health, and you asked for evidence that it did so.

    Please quit over stating everything and being so dramatic with “deliberately lied”, “trust”, “obligation to trust you” etc….wayyy over the top.

    Like

  229. Lara Lohne
    November 8, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Sorry if I don’t take your statement of me being ‘flat WRONG’ too seriously Joe. This isn’t my opinion, this is from scientists who have studied autism and also researched many of these biomedical interventions being touted by your crowd. The simply fact is, if there is no physical, medical issue, then nothing that effects the physical body is going to have any benefit on the individual in question. If you want to prove me ‘flat WRONG’ you’ll need to provide research data showing how I am flat wrong. I’m pretty sure you can’t so…

    My son had Early Intervention beginning at just over two and a half years. He continued when he turned 3 with special ed pre-school. He had about 4 months total of occupational therapy, and we were on the waiting list for speech and language therapy. He had just come up for the Parents of Children with Autism parent training program, which was a 25 week therapy course where the therapists trained the parents to do the therapy at home (basically teaching a child how to play interactively which will help them with social interactions later). They changed his OT three times in the four months we were going and each time he was set back to square one. That wasn’t a benefit to him and the other therapy (training to play) was stuff I was doing with him already and getting to therapy was extremely stressful and time consuming so we dropped the therapy and I worked with him myself at home, as he continued to go twice per week to special ed pre-school.

    In essence, my son had very little traditional therapy, other then the interventions he received at pre school and what I worked with him at home, which was mostly just playing and laughing a lot. My son became verbal, (we had begun teaching him sign language even before we knew he has autism because we wanted him to be able to tell us when he wanted food, drink, or anything else) he as slowly been learning how to self regulate when things become overwhelming, he can ask now to take a break, and he gets one. He will eat broccoli now, which is something he couldn’t do before because the texture made him gag. He can dress himself now for the most part, still struggles with brushing his own teeth and I think that might be a sensory thing because it’s only on his front teeth that he seems to have the issue.

    He’s always been a picky eater, not because he didn’t like things, but because the texture was more then he could handle (candied yams is a good example. He really wanted to eat those, but just was not able to get them down). His food choices have expanded over the years and he is able to tolerate, and even enjoy more food now then he used to (at the age of two, it was rice, hot dogs, toast, apples and crackers, not exactly a well rounded diet) and this entire time, he has been robustly healthy and thriving. Guess what, I even let him eat candy and other treats from time to time *GASP*.

    My son is in kindergarten now, he has friends, he goes to a main stream school with special supports and always has someone with him throughout the day to assist him and help keep him calm. he also gets 1:1 instruction separate from his NT peers and has improved drastically even in just the past two months since the start of school. My point in all of this is to show you progression can happen without your biomedical treatments, and sometimes without the traditional ASD therapies also. Granted my son did receive some, but it was very limited. Mostly it was just me and him playing at home; something I did with my NT children when they were his age. Autism is not stasis, it is delay. Eventually progress will be made. Even in those most severely effected that is possible. Maybe not to the point where they are fully functional, but that is due to the severity of their autism, and no amount of biomedical treatment is going to change a severely or profoundly autistic person into a fully functioning person, that is not possible. I personally believe, all these stories of severely autistic children being treated with biomedical interventions and recovering is from people who don’t really know what severe autism is. My son has been diagnosed with mild to moderate autism, not severe, or profound. Severe are those who will most likely remain non verbal, but may be able to use speech augmentation devices, those who most likely will always stim when in loud, crowded or bright places to help them process and handle all the sensory input. Those who are profoundly autistic many times have other co-morbid conditions (epilepsy, down syndrome, MR, etc.) which compound their autism. These are the ones that may have mobility issues, need to wear noise cancellation ear phones, basically extremely complex disorders. I believe that most, if not all, of the children being ‘recovered’ were similar in functionality to my son, or higher and the progress they have made is just normal progress for a person with their functionality level. That isn’t the biomedical treatments doing that, it’s just the natural evolution of the disorder and how a child with it is going to progress.

    And yes, I do have an open mind, just not so open that everything falls in and is allowed to take root there. I still have the ability to be reasonable and logical, and if something just isn’t either of those things, no amount of you declaring otherwise will make it so.

    Like

  230. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    Joe :
    Gray,
    Here’s what you said, ” You put your child on a special diet, then he shows perfectly normal signs of development: Clearly, it had to be the diet that did it!”
    Here’s what I said, “Gray, if you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative.”
    Now what did I lie about exactly? You clearly state that changing diet does not affect ones health, that you don’t believe changing my sons diet changed his health, and you asked for evidence that it did so.
    Please quit over stating everything and being so dramatic with “deliberately lied”, “trust”, “obligation to trust you” etc….wayyy over the top.

    Read what I said carefully. Very carefully. I never stated that “changing diet does not affect ones health”, clearly or otherwise, that is simply you making things up. If someone claimed “eating plums will turn you into a cat”, and you asked for evidence, would you trust them if they answered “If you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative”?

    Like

  231. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Lara, I feel sorry for your son. Diet is huge for all of us!

    Like

  232. November 8, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Joe is being sanctimonious now……yeah, eating a healthy diet is important for everyone Joe – what’s your point?

    Like

  233. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    You did say it…you are asking for evidence to prove it. If you believe that diet DOES play a part in postive health then you wouldn’t ask for evidence to prove it.
    You are so confused.

    Like

  234. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Lawrence….you know my point. Diet is HUGE when it comes to Autism.

    Like

  235. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    Joe :
    You did say it…you are asking for evidence to prove it. If you believe that diet DOES play a part in postive health then you wouldn’t ask for evidence to prove it.
    You are so confused.

    Joe, do you understand the difference between a specific statement and a general one? Your claim was not “diet has an effect on heath”, it was “a candida-reducing diet has an effect on autism.” I asked for proof that a specific diet has a specific effect, not that diet in general has an effect on health in general. Why do you persist in trying to substitute one claim for the other?

    Like

  236. Lara Lohne
    November 8, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Diet has nothing to do with autism. My son doesn’t need your pity, there is nothing about him to pity. He’s happy, he’s exuberant and full of life and love and he’s funny and giggles all the time. He has friends, he is progressing all the time and he is loved. What’s to pity? Healthy eating is essential for physical health. Nobody is disputing that, but autism will not be changed by eating a healthy diet. That is what you are claiming and that is where you are mistaken.

    Like

  237. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Gray…Candida now?

    Like

  238. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Lara,
    You are flat wrong and diet may help your son, but he will never have the chance to find out. That’s what is sad to me.

    Like

  239. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Joe :
    Gray…Candida now?

    That was your initial claim when you first came here, remember? Now, prove your specific point with solid evidence. “Try it yourself” is not solid evidence. “It worked for me” is not solid evidence. “Because I said so, that’s why” is not solid evidence.

    Like

  240. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Oh, and here’s proof that you made claims about candida in the past: https://shotofprevention.com/2012/08/22/the-makings-of-a-vaccine-advocate/#comment-13115

    Like

  241. Lara Lohne
    November 8, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Where is the scientific data showing I’m flat wrong? Your saying so is not going to cut it. Do you honestly think I’ve not read about these things? Do you think I’m just talking out of my arse on this? My son has no health issues, no bowel issues, no food sensitivities other then certain textures. He is healthy, strong and thriving. Diet isn’t going to make one lick of difference in his progress. You need to get off your high horse and stop trying to convince the world you are an authority on autism just because you have a child with autism. Many people do, throughout the world. You have made many claims regarding diet and how it has improved your son’s autism, but you haven’t provided any valid, verifiable data showing why your claims are valid. Logic and the research done show that you are mistaken. I actually feel badly for your son, because he has a father who can’t accept him for who he is and is trying to make him into something else. Your son’s life is his own, not yours and it’s your job to help him live it, not try to force him into a cookie cutter version of the ideal child.

    Like

  242. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Gray….I never said we didn’t have the discussion before, I just didn’t know that’s what we were talking about now. Hilarious

    Like

  243. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Lara, you feel sorry for my son because he eats healthier and feels better from doing so…Hilarious

    Like

  244. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Joe :
    Gray….I never said we didn’t have the discussion before, I just didn’t know that’s what we were talking about now. Hilarious

    You specifically mentioned it in prior posts every time you talked about diet before, so naturally I assumed that you would make the very basic connection.

    Like

  245. Lara Lohne
    November 8, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Conjecture, Joe. You don’t know your son eats healthier then my son. That is highly speculative. And that isn’t what I said anyway. I feel badly for him because you can’t accept him for who he is but are determined to change him into what you want him to be. That is going to have disastrous consequences to his self esteem. Regardless of how physically healthy he is.

    Like

  246. November 8, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    @Gray & Lara – best not to engage Joe. He’s being purposely obtuse & quite annoying, just because he can.

    Unless he provides actual evidence that diet is important related specifically to autism – best not to feed to troll.

    Like

  247. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Lara….I didn’t compare your son to mine. I said my son is healthier because of his diet.

    GFCF, dairy free, soy free, sugar free, foods without preservatives, GMO free (if can be determined), also low glutamate foods to balance gaba and glutamates, etc….

    I’m sure if your son broke his arm you’d let him suffer. No need to change him.

    Gray….seriously? You shouldn’t assume, the last time we spoke of this was when, last May or June? You know what assuming does.

    Lawrence…. Talk to Gray….I didn’t start this conversation. Gray loves to argue about whatever he can.

    Like

  248. November 8, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Conjecture again, Joe. My son has broken his arm, when he was just over a year and a half. He wasn’t insured and it cost me a lot of money I couldn’t afford to have him treated. There is a HUGE difference between an injury and neurodevelopmental differences. You can’t compare apples to oranges and expect people to take you seriously. There is no scientific data to support your claim that any diet will have any effect on autism. You are simply adding more stress to your lives then is warranted or necessary. You are trying to make your son ‘normal’ instead of accepting that he is different, and being OK with that, because different is not less and comes with its own set of gifts and advantages. My son, for example, has an outstanding ear for music, rhythms and sounds. He also shows significant strengths in mathematics. You are bogging your son down with unneeded dietary restrictions and they are not going to make him into a different person. If he has autism, he will always have autism. The sooner you accept that, the happier you, and your son, will be.

    Like

  249. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Lara…if a person has symptons…you treat them.

    Like

  250. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Joe :
    Lara…if a person has symptons…you treat them.

    With leeches?

    Like

  251. Lawrence
    November 8, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    @gray – I wonder what Joe’s treatment for Down’s would be?

    Like

  252. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Wow….all if this discussion about diet and you compare to leeches? Seriously, thank for making me laugh and putting a smile on my face.

    Like

  253. November 8, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    @Joe – what discussion about diet? I don’t see you actually presenting any evidence or research…..I see a person being purposely obtuse and quite annoying, for the sole reason of causing conflict.

    Like

  254. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    Really Lawrence? As I said, I didn’t bring it up. Ask Gray.

    Like

  255. Gray Falcon
    November 8, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    Joe :
    Really Lawrence? As I said, I didn’t bring it up. Ask Gray.

    I did mention it, yes, but as an example of your general incompetence, rather than as a point of discussion.

    Like

  256. Joe
    November 8, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Bravo to you Gray

    Like

  257. November 9, 2012 at 12:04 am

    So what symptoms does your son present with that can be corrected with diet? Does he have bowel issues? Fine, treat that with changes in diet that will specifically effect him (GFCF is only going to benefit those with allergies or sensitivities to those things). Does he have egg, peanut, lactose allergies or intolerance, remove those things from his diet. If he’s allergic to corn or wheat, remove items with corn or wheat in them. But the bottom line is, these are all physical, medically recognized issues with food and yes, diet will help alleviate physical symptoms when the diet is changed to accommodate. Again though, diet will not do anything for autism as it is not a physical or medical condition, but neurological. The brain is constructed differently, beginning prenatally, and no amount of dietary restrictions or yeast treatments are going to deconstruct and reconstruct the brain to be neurotypical. So what you are treating with your sons special diet are physical issues that are completely and totally separate from autism. Your son is still just as autistic even without your stressful, specialized diet. So if it’s his autism you’re attempting to treat, you are again, only making life more stressful for yourself, because diet will have no effect on autism. If you don’t get that by this point, you never will, therefore I’m done, even if you aren’t.

    Like

  258. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 12:36 am

    Lara….the gut = brain, what happens in the gut happens in the brain, therefore diet does affect the brain.
    Good luck to you and your son.

    Like

  259. Lara Lohne
    November 9, 2012 at 12:41 am

    Incorrect Joe, or every time I had mild intestinal distress I’d also become temporarily MR or autistic. You are getting things backward. The brain is what regulates and controls everything else, not the other way around. Again, your word is useless. Where is your data? That is what I will believe, and until you provide data to back up your claims, I’m going to believe the data I’ve read that says you’re full of it.

    Like

  260. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 1:14 am

    Lara…you’re such a sweet person.

    If the gut doesn’t affect the brain, then what explanation do you give for somebody drinking alcohol (gut) and then getting drunk (brain)? Looks like a connection to me.
    Have a lovely night Lara.

    Like

  261. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 1:30 am

    Joe, please stop lying about what people say.

    Like

  262. lilady
    November 9, 2012 at 1:51 am

    Here’s a listing from the Autism Science Foundation of studies that prove there is no association between vaccines and autism…

    http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

    Take a look at this study Joe. The 1998 case study referred to in this abstract is Wakefield’s fraudulent research that was retracted by The Lancet…and which led to Wakefield’s loss of his medical license in the U.K.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study

    Background

    The presence of measles virus (MV) RNA in bowel tissue from children with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and gastrointestinal (GI) disturbances was reported in 1998. Subsequent investigations found no associations between MV exposure and ASD but did not test for the presence of MV RNA in bowel or focus on children with ASD and GI disturbances. Failure to replicate the original study design may contribute to continued public concern with respect to the safety of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.
    Methodology/Principal Findings

    The objective of this case-control study was to determine whether children with GI disturbances and autism are more likely than children with GI disturbances alone to have MV RNA and/or inflammation in bowel tissues and if autism and/or GI episode onset relate temporally to receipt of MMR. The sample was an age-matched group of US children undergoing clinically-indicated ileocolonoscopy. Ileal and cecal tissues from 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls) were evaluated by real-time reverse transcription (RT)-PCR for presence of MV RNA in three laboratories blinded to diagnosis, including one wherein the original findings suggesting a link between MV and ASD were reported. The temporal order of onset of GI episodes and autism relative to timing of MMR administration was examined. We found no differences between case and control groups in the presence of MV RNA in ileum and cecum. Results were consistent across the three laboratory sites. GI symptom and autism onset were unrelated to MMR timing. Eighty-eight percent of ASD cases had behavioral regression.

    Conclusions/Significance

    This study provides strong evidence against association of autism with persistent MV RNA in the GI tract or MMR exposure. Autism with GI disturbances is associated with elevated rates of regression in language or other skills and may represent an endophenotype distinct from other ASD.

    Still waiting for Joe to provide any citations from reputable peer-reviewed first tier journals that disprove these many studies.

    Like

  263. November 9, 2012 at 3:58 am

    Joe :

    If the gut doesn’t affect the brain, then what explanation do you give for somebody drinking alcohol (gut) and then getting drunk (brain)? Looks like a connection to me.

    How many times have you heard of a person getting a brain scan to confirm intoxication? I’ve not ever heard of that, but they do check blood alcohol levels. Your opinion is shown to be flawed even more so when one considers the number of other things that can have an intoxicating effect or effect the brain but never enter the gut. Anesthesia is a good example; it isn’t ingested, but given either intravenously or through inhalation. The gut does not control the brain. Therefore there is not a diet on the face of this Earth that has the ability to change autism into not. Nothing anyone can eat can reconstruct the brain to be ‘normal’. That is the bottom line.

    Like

  264. November 9, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Guys – ignore Joe. He is obviously enjoying being a minor irritant. Just stop feeding the troll.

    Like

  265. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Lawrence….why is that?

    Gray…..what this time? Is that all you do is complain?

    lilady….we’re not talking about vaccines and autism.

    Lara….I didn’t say the gut controls the brain, I said what goes into the gut affects the brain. You didn’t understand the analogy of alcohol, how about when you take an aspirin and your headache goes away?

    Gray loves analagies of when “we thought the world was flat”, etc….that’s where you all are now.

    Like

  266. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Joe, you keep accusing us of denying general statements, we are not. We are denying your specific claims. Let me explain in simple terms: Consider the claim “Alex did not steal a baseball bat from Martin’s store.” This statement is not equivalent to the statement “Nobody ever commits theft.” Likewise “A specific diet will not treat autism” is not the same as “Nutrition has no effect on the body.” Every time you accuse of saying something we do not say, you are lying. That is the simple truth.

    Like

  267. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    If diet has an effect on the body, then it has an effect on Autism.

    Like

  268. November 9, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    @Joe – pretty unequivocal statement there…..still waiting on research & evidence / proof to back it up….back to ignore mode.

    Like

  269. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Joe :
    If diet has an effect on the body, then it has an effect on Autism.

    By that same logic, one could state: “If diet has an effect on the body, then it can turn you into a cat.” We need evidence, not what you consider logic.

    Like

  270. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Gray….ever heard of the expression “you are what you eat”?
    Diet effects the whole body…everything. If you don’t understand that, then yu live in the dark ages.

    Like

  271. Chris
    November 9, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    If anything, Joe is showing his homeopathic levels of honesty, logic and reading comprehension. Others at least will see that there is nothing to see. Time to move on.

    Like

  272. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Chris…thanks for making me laugh again today. 🙂

    Like

  273. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Joe :
    Gray….ever heard of the expression “you are what you eat”?
    Diet effects the whole body…everything. If you don’t understand that, then yu live in the dark ages.

    Joe, that is again, a general claim. We know that diet affects the body, but we also know that it does not affect everything. For example, no amount of dietary change will cure most cancers. You need to address the specific claim, namely, that your specific diet has a positive effect on autism. It could just as easily have no effect at all. If you don’t understand that, you live well before civilization started.

    Like

  274. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Gray….I didn’t say diet cured things.

    Here’s what I said…
    “Gray….ever heard of the expression “you are what you eat”?
    Diet effects the whole body…everything. If you don’t understand that, then yu live in the dark ages.”

    You can be a nay-sayer and lose out if you want to. I’ll do what I think is best and you go ahead and do what you think is best. No hard feelings.

    Like

  275. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    You said “Diet effects the whole body…everything.” That’s pretty much declaring diet can do anything. Or does it not really affect everything? Now, tell me something. Did it ever occur to you to listen to other people? To actually discuss the points we make, and not talk to the nay-sayers that only exist in your mind? I have plenty of hard feelings, someone like you is raising a child, and that is the most dangerous thing on heaven and earth.

    Like

  276. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Gray….saying diet effects the whole body is saying that diet can do anything? My logic meter just exploded.

    Thank God there is somebody like me raising my son and thank God it is not you!

    Sorry you have hard feelings about all of this Gray. Need a hug?

    Like

  277. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Joe :
    Gray….saying diet effects the whole body is saying that diet can do anything? My logic meter just exploded.
    Thank God there is somebody like me raising my son and thank God it is not you!
    Sorry you have hard feelings about all of this Gray. Need a hug?

    Let me clarify. Your logic was “Diet affects the whole body, therefore, it can affect autism.” The same logic also creates the statement “Diet affects the whole body, therefore, it can affect cancer.” So you’re saying diet can’t do everything? If so, then it is entirely possible diet has no effect on autism. It is up to you to prove otherwise.
    Tell me something. Do you teach your son to lie to others? You lied about what I said, repeatedly, without hesitation, and without remorse. Don’t be surprised that I am angry.

    Like

  278. November 9, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    @Gray – ignore him, he’s being purposely obtuse & annoying.

    Like

  279. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    @Lawrence – Sorry, it’s just that I can’t stand people who act as manipulative as he does. He twists words in ways that look superficially correct, and cannot comprehend the logic behind his statements. I really should know better than to engage him, but I keep worrying someone might believe him… Although at this point, that is less possible than hitting the jackpot at Keno.

    Like

  280. Lara Lohne
    November 9, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Joe :
    Lara….the gut = brain, what happens in the gut happens in the brain, therefore diet does affect the brain.

    If ‘the gut = brain’ then the brain must not matter and all decisions we make should not be thought about but we should do everything based on ‘gut instinct’ yes?

    Here’s the point Joe; nobody is buying your opinion. Mostly because you aren’t able to provide any scientific data to back up your claims, but also because studies done on diet have found actually to have no effect on autism (and yes, that was your original claim, maybe you have forgotten but the rest of us have not). Therefore forcing a specialized (and stressful to follow) diet on your autistic child is folly. I can only assume you are doing it because you enjoy the attention you get when asked why you buy all this specialized food and get to tell people your son has autism. You aren’t doing your son any benefit by feeding him the way you are. You are making his life experiences with food very boring and unpleasant (yeah, I’ve tried these GFCF foods and other things you tout to help your son’s autism and they are nasty). Your son will be unable to look forward to any meal with anticipation and enjoyment because the food you give him is tasteless and boring. We have taste buds for a reason, let your son use them!

    Like

  281. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    I remember the conversation Lara.
    Diet does affect people with Autism, just as it affects you and me.
    If you buy GFCF boxed and packaged foods you will be eating garbage…there are ingredients in those things that are just a bad as the gluten. If you cook everything from scratch it is delicious….so sorry you can’t cook Lara. MY son loves food and he asks for it and eats it all day long. He can’t get enough of all of that wonderfully nutritious food.

    Gray….I have not lied about anything you have said. I would accuse you of the same thing. I try and break down and simplify all of your mumble jumble ramblings to make sure we understand each other. So sorry, you can’t have a conversation without hurt feelings. If you don’t understand that what you eat affects everything in your body then so be it. Didn’t I say that once before? Didn’t I say we should go our own ways, no hard feelings?

    Lawrence…it takes two to tango, or three or four….I have given Gray an out and he won’t take it….maybe he will take your advice and move on so he won’t have any more hurt feelings.

    Like

  282. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Joe, I never said diet has no effect on the body, but you accused me of saying it anyway. That was a lie. It is as simple as that. I am not being dramatic or unreasonable, I am simply stating a fact that you will not acknowledge.

    Like

  283. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Gray…to be clear….I agree that you think diet does have an effect on the body.

    Like

  284. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Joe@220: Gray, if you don’t beleive that diet plays a huge part in your health…that is your prerogative.
    Joe@228: You clearly state that changing diet does not affect ones health…
    Joe@233: You did say it…you are asking for evidence to prove it. If you believe that diet DOES play a part in postive health then you wouldn’t ask for evidence to prove it.
    Nice try, but you can’t change history. Tell me, is this what you teach your son. “It’s okay to lie, and if you get caught, just lie some more!”

    Like

  285. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Gray…you are the one lying….you know better….where is the full context of these statements? HONESTLY (pun intended) you are better than this as you guys debate this all of the time. Not providing the whole quote, statement, etc….really bad Gray, rookie move.

    Is this what you teach your family, Gray? It’s Ok to lie by not providing all of the information. Hide the parts you don’t want others to see!

    Like

  286. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    So why didn’t you provide the context to prove I was lying? Here’s why: Joe@220 was the entire post, no context required. Joe@228 was right after quoting me saying nothing of the sort. Joe@233 was after I explained to you why you were lying. If you provided the context, you would have only made yourself look worse.

    Like

  287. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    In case anyone is wondering, the only missing part was from Joe@228: …that you don’t believe changing my sons diet changed his health, and you asked for evidence that it did so. Take note that I didn’t not say his son’s diet didn’t “change his health” (a general claim), I specifically mentioned his son’s autism. Those are, again, two different claims. Just because diet affects one’s health does not mean it was affect autism.

    Like

  288. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Wow Gray….you are so wrong. I can’t believe we are debating this. I didn’t provide all of the posts because I am busy…I have a job and this is a waste of time.

    Why didn’t you post them in the first place? To mislead people….to lie!

    So you are saying my post 220 wasn’t responding to something you said? I just made the statement?

    Grow up Gray…you are unbelievable.

    Like

  289. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    Joe, here’s what post 220 was responding to: “You put your child on a special diet, then he shows perfectly normal signs of development: Clearly, it had to be the diet that did it!” Take note that I specifically mentioned a “special diet” and “normal signs of development”. I made no mention of any other diets or forms of health. I never said anything else about diet and health, only that specific cause and effect. So in other words, yes, you were lying, by claiming I was making a more general statement than I did. And you lied again in #283 when you, rather than apologizing, tried for historical revisionism on a non-editable thread.

    Like

  290. lilady
    November 9, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Just don’t feed the pathological liar Joe Troll, folks.

    This latest Troll comment “says it all”

    “lilady….we’re not talking about vaccines and autism.”

    Yes, the subject of this particular thread is “No Link Between Vaccines and Autism But False Belief Persists”…until the Troll derailed it with his citationless O/T comments.

    Like

  291. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Gray….don’t you have anything better to do with your time then to pick at this?

    It is not easy communicating via text vs. verbal conversation. You think I twist everything you say; when in reality it is a fluid conversation to hopefully have an understanding of other views at the end of the conversation.

    I was cordial and stated we should go our own ways and agree to disagree (twice), and yet you keep coming back.

    Then…so you wouldn’t have hard feelings, I told you very clearly, I now understand that you think “diet does have an effect on the body.” So we could move on….and still, you keep coming back.

    This is so petty and meaningless and a big waste of time. Have a nice evening Gray, I plan on enjoying mine.

    Like

  292. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Lilady…..your comments say more about you then they do me.

    The name of the thread may be, “No Link Between Vaccines and Autism But False Belief Persists”… but that isn’t what we were talking about when you came in the conversation with citations on vaccine’s and autism. So that is why I told you “we’re not talking about vaccines and autism. “

    Like

  293. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Joe, the first time you misinterpreted my statement, I tried to explain to you your mistake. You kept repeating the statement. Again and again. You didn’t apologize, you just tried to make me look like the bad guy. You only tried to back out when you got caught, and didn’t admit to any wrongdoing. I have no patience for one like you. I don’t care how polite you are if you lie about me. I just want to set the record straight.

    Like

  294. November 9, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    @Gray – just ignore him. He’s proven exactly what he is, over and over again. You’re wasting your breath to even attempt to engage him – he’s enjoying the attention & getting under your skin.

    Luckily, I just find him to be pathetic.

    Like

  295. Joe
    November 9, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    I didn’t keep repeating the same statement…it was a fluid conversation.
    I didn’t apologize? For what exactly?
    I tried to make you look like a bad guy? On the contrary, you try and make me look like the bad guy, just as you are doing now.
    I didn’t back out of anything and didn’t get “caught” for anything. I was trying to be civil and offer an olive branch.
    My peace offering is off the table.

    Like

  296. Lara Lohne
    November 9, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    Joe :
    I remember the conversation Lara.
    Diet does affect people with Autism, just as it affects you and me.

    Point 1: That is not what you have claimed, therefore you prove yourself, yet again to be either extremely dense, or a liar. You have made a claim that diet affects autism itself, not people with autism, which is a significant difference. Stop trying to change your words, that is simply an old anti-vaccine ploy called ‘moving the goal posts’.

    If you buy GFCF boxed and packaged foods you will be eating garbage…there are ingredients in those things that are just a bad as the gluten. If you cook everything from scratch it is delicious….so sorry you can’t cook Lara.

    Point 2: And what is it that gave you the automatic impression that I can’t cook? I don’t buy pre-packaged food, GFCF or otherwise. I cook my meals from scratch. I don’t cook GFCF because THERE IS NO NEED FOR ME TO.

    MY son loves food and he asks for it and eats it all day long. He can’t get enough of all of that wonderfully nutritious food.

    Point 3: If your son is eating all day every day, that might be a clue that he is lacking something in his diet that is essential to his health and well being. Otherwise he wouldn’t need to eat all day every day. My son, only eats when he’s actually hungry, and he asks me for what he wants. His only dietary restrictions are those he puts in place because he doesn’t like the flavor of something, or is unable to tolerate the texture of it. My son is robustly healthy.

    Odd that your son has so many physical health issues and eats such a ‘healthy’ diet, but my son eats what you would consider unhealthy food (because it’s not GFCF, soy free, sugar free or any of those other things you take such offense to) and has no physical health problems at all.

    (Sorry if this didn’t work properly. I am not exactly fluent in HTML code or whatever it is that is used to denote block quotes, breaks, etc.)

    Like

  297. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    Joe :
    I didn’t keep repeating the same statement…it was a fluid conversation.
    I didn’t apologize? For what exactly?
    I tried to make you look like a bad guy? On the contrary, you try and make me look like the bad guy, just as you are doing now.
    I didn’t back out of anything and didn’t get “caught” for anything. I was trying to be civil and offer an olive branch.
    My peace offering is off the table.

    Note Joe’s attempts to steer the conversation away from the point: His blatant lies. This is the closest one can come to “victory” with him: Forcing him to go into the most minor details to keep from admitting the truth.
    Being civil involves admitting your mistakes and apologizing for them, not making cutting remarks about your opponent while blatantly disregarding what they say. Why he thinks he was being in the least bit “civil” is an exercise left to the readers, but possibly involves a personality disorder of some sort.

    Like

  298. novalox
    November 9, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    @joe

    Making threats now, are we? That ought to sit well with the mods here.

    But yeah, why should we bother with a known liar and sock-puppet like you?

    Like

  299. Joe
    November 10, 2012 at 1:10 am

    Lara….diet does affect Autism, I stick by it. Diets affects people, diet affects people with Autism…I stand by all of those statements. Guess I’m not playing some old ploy…huh, Lara?

    You are the one who said eating GFCF is nasty,
    “(yeah, I’ve tried these GFCF foods and other things you tout to help your son’s autism and they are nasty).”
    So I assumed you couldn’t cook. What is nasty about eating fruits, vegetables, and cooking from scratch?

    You still want to compare our son’s? Why? I’ll put my son up against yours any day of the week, if that’s where you want to go…physically, mentally, nutrition wise, happiness whatever Lara.

    Gray….still making me laugh out loud. Thank you!

    Novalox….you are the liar. I didn’t threaten anybody.

    Like

  300. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 1:19 am

    Joe: Thank you for admitting you have no response to my statements.

    Like

  301. Joe
    November 10, 2012 at 1:50 am

    Gray….you weren’t talking to me, you were talking about me. So nothing to respond too.

    Like

  302. November 10, 2012 at 2:39 am

    So give us the link to the study that supports your claim that diet will help with autism. You can stand by it all you wish, but if it isn’t true, then it doesn’t matter that you’re standing there. As for assuming I can’t cook, well, we know what happens when one assumes…

    My purpose in ‘comparing’ your son to my son is because my son is healthy, thriving and progressing at a remarkable pace, but he doesn’t have a special diet. That being the case, I submit your son’s progression is simply normal progression for a child with autism and the diet you put him on is simply correlation, not the reason he is progressing. I hope your son continues to progress, but the progress he is making he is doing on his own, naturally, not because you have saved him from autism with your special diet.

    For the record, Joe, I find you to be quite arrogant and intolerant and ignorant (that’s a lot of ‘ants’ in one sentence, eh?) You are arrogant because you believe your son’s progress is your doing, and that you are somehow a better parent then others whose children are progressing also, without all that ‘specialized treatment’. You are intolerant because you for some reason cannot accept the fact that your son has a disability but instead was injured from vaccines and you have a deep seeded need to ‘cure’ him of his toxic overload in an attempt to bring the normal back out of him, rather then accept and embrace him for the wonderfully unique individual that he is and has been since he was born. You are ignorant because you for some reason are not able to see logic and reason when it is staring you in the face. You refuse to accept fact after numerous studies have shown what you believe to be fiction; in essence, you believe in fairy tales. Because of your inability or unwillingness to accept fact from fiction, this renders you incapable of participating in a discussion that deals in facts, logic and reason.

    Like

  303. Joe
    November 10, 2012 at 3:10 am

    Lara…all you can do is attack me with many false assumptions and lies? Nothing you said about me has any truth to it what so ever. You don’t know me or my son. What made you decide to lie and make up stories about me? Must be your own insecurities, that’s usually what it is when people are aggressive, on the defensive, and tell vicious lies about somebody else. Please, do yourself a favor and go get some psychoanalysis and help yourself!

    Like

  304. November 10, 2012 at 5:15 am

    What did I say that was lying? The fact that you haven’t yet provided any study that backs up your claim is a fact, the fact that many other studies have been done that show there is no relationship between diet and autism is also a fact.

    My statements regarding your character are also true based on the multiple interactions I’ve had with you here. Nothing I said is an assumption, but my opinion of you. You can’t tell me I’m lying about my own opinion. My opinion is my own, you can’t make it be different just because you don’t like it. And nothing that I said was a personal attack. Your choice of words, however, regarding the psychoanalysis bit, is an attack. This again is a common anti-vaccine ploy; attack the messenger when the message casts doubt on your position.

    I am not being defensive, nor am I being aggressive and I haven’t made up any stories about you, merely repeating things you have said and/or proven, yourself, to be correct. It would seem that I hit a nerve somehow.

    Like

  305. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Joe :
    Gray….you weren’t talking to me, you were talking about me. So nothing to respond too.

    If you want me to talk to you, then you must be willing to listen to me. I explained to you repeatedly why “Eating healthy is good for you” (an exact quote, by the way) is not equivalent to “A candida-reducing diet will control autism”, but you refused to listen. As such, there is nothing for me to say to you.

    Like

  306. novalox
    November 10, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    @joe

    Please, keep posting. We can see all of your lies, threats, and insults. You haven’t posted any credible evidence, why should you stop now?

    Like

  307. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    Gray….still bringing up Candida again? You just don’t know when to quit do you? You remind me of a very young child that won’t let it go, but then you get hurt feelings and run to Mommy fro protection.

    You brought up candida first, remember? You specifically stated you were using diet to reduce candida in a previous thread. If you can’t even remember what you’re treating your son for, how trust your word that your treatments work.Oh, and you’re right. I don’t know how to quit. That’s why you can’t win.

    Like

  308. Joe
    November 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Gray….the Candida conversation was 5 months ago, so why bringing it up now against the best wishes of your buddies?
    Win? What…. are you going to get a prize? Good luck with that Gray.

    Like

  309. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Joe :
    Gray….the Candida conversation was 5 months ago, so why bringing it up now against the best wishes of your buddies?
    Win? What…. are you going to get a prize? Good luck with that Gray.

    I brought it up as an example of your incompetence. Wasn’t my fault you decided to join in. And what have I won? Definitive proof of your deceptions.

    Like

  310. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    By the way, Joe, don’t expect me to answer back to you anymore, since you never bother to read what I say, but substitute a strawman who is easier to defeat. I will leave you with one final note: Not once in your rant to lara did you discuss any of the science with her, just made a bunch of vague accusations and actually tried to complain about the fact that she provided you with information. The same tactics that allowed Romney to lose an election to an incumbent during a recession.

    Like

  311. Joe
    November 10, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Gray….you are so funny…..you think it is incompetent to treat somebody for Candida when they have a Candida over-growth? You keep believing that Gray, it demonstrates how ridiculous and incompetent you are. How old are you Gray? You’re like a little kid with your ”I win” ways and throwing stuff out just to start an argument.
    You win Gray….I am done wasting time with you.

    Like

  312. Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    And again, Joe makes no effort whatsoever to prove his points, he just insults and flounces. Victory for science again.

    Like

  313. November 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Joe, the difference would be in the choice of words. You make your statements as if they are fact, rather then opinion. There in lies the difference. You can feel all that about me as much as you like. I’ve been told I can be brutally honest, but in my opinion, brutal honesty is better then honey coated lies that serve no purpose. Your statements only prove how very arrogant, intolerant and ignorant you really are. You don’t seem to get it when I say my son doesn’t need anything from me other then love, attention and acceptance. And he is thriving with that.

    Like

  314. November 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    @Gray & Lara – I think Joe has finally crossed the line here…..email sent.

    Like

  315. lilady
    November 11, 2012 at 11:38 am

    I sent an email, when the Troll called you a schm*ck, Lawrence. 🙂

    Like

  316. Gray Falcon
    November 11, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Sorry about starting this whole mess. I was trying to point out that Joe made conclusions on much shakier grounds, but I forgot who I was talking to.

    Like

  317. Justine
    November 12, 2012 at 11:00 am

    I find the people commenting on this site to be very hypocritical. I will no longer be following.

    Like

  318. November 12, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    @Justine – I’d love to hear exactly what you take issue with…..

    Like

  319. lilady
    November 12, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    Who do you find hypocritical, Justine?

    I find that the trolls and their sockies are hypocritical.

    Like

  320. Ari
    November 13, 2012 at 10:56 am

    This is kind of weird. How could you possibly know whether or not diet has helped Joe’s son recover from autism? I am pretty sure that you have never seen him either before or after, and never will. You are arguing from a belief system rather than facts on the ground, and many of us have found this belief system to have become totally bankrupt. I think it is evident that Joe is polite and sincere, and your accusing him of being a liar says volumes about yourselves rather than him. And Lil, maybe Justine thinks that the fact that several of you guys are trolls and sock puppets, it’s hypocritical of you to take issue with it in others.

    Like

  321. Chris
    November 13, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Ari, we cannot know. Which is why we were asking for verifiable scientific evidence, just baseless anecdotes. Joe never provided us any of that, and if we missed it just provide us a link.

    If you have that evidence, you are welcome to provide it. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed paper that supports Joe’s assertions.

    And in the real world, calling a person a “schmuck” is not polite nor sincere.

    Like

  322. Chris
    November 13, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Need coffee… ” just baseless anecdotes” should be: Joe just gave us baseless anecdotes.

    Like

  323. November 13, 2012 at 11:51 am

    @Chris – correct. Joe may truly believe what he says, but we have no reason at all to take him at his word, because he has provided no proof or evidence that would convince us, that in general, diet is the key to treating autism….and as far as his civility – I believe it went right out the window in his latest serious of posts….again, all we ask is that people provide something that we can look at…..is that so hard?

    Like

  324. November 13, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    @Chris – sorry, series, not serious….doh!

    Like

  325. Duckie
    November 13, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    The “trolls” and “sockies” have been removed for being hypocritical.
    In the real world “schmuck” means idiot, and I don’t believe the way Joe was treated was sincere or respectful either.
    Also, Joe never said diet was “the key” to treating autism.
    I agree with Justine.

    Like

  326. Gray Falcon
    November 13, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Joe outright lied about what we said, why should I treat him with respect?

    Like

  327. November 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    @Duckie – Joe came back with a very sanctimonious attitude, being annoying for annoying’s sake….not exactly adding to the overall level of conversation & certainly not on topic.

    Like

  328. Duckie
    November 13, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Yes I am sure it was all Joe’s fault.

    Like

  329. Gray Falcon
    November 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Duckie :
    Yes I am sure it was all Joe’s fault.

    I’m glad you agree with me.

    Like

  330. Ari
    November 13, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    This has devolved into a children’s argument, did so, did not, did so, did not. Why doesn’t everyone just drop it and talk about something more important?

    Like

  331. Chris
    November 13, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    I’m sorry, Ari, for asking you to provide the evidence about Joe’s claims. I was hoping it would elevate the discussion with some actual science.

    Like

  332. Gray Falcon
    November 13, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Part of the problem with the discussion is that most of them people don’t seem to know what we’re asking for. When we ask Joe “How do you know that it was your diet and not normal development?”, we aren’t claiming that food has no effect on the body, or suggesting incompetence on his part, we are asking for the exact same level of evidence we would any other such claim.
    Why Ari seems to think he was “polite and sincere” when he has been arrogant, patronizing, and dishonest is another question.

    Like

  333. lilady
    November 14, 2012 at 2:49 am

    @ Ari: We did talk about “something important” … and provided citations and commentary on the now thoroughly debunked theory of vaccine-induced-autism…way back in June, when this thread began.

    I suggest you go up thread to see the earlier comments and make some suggestions about topics such as vaccines and/or autism.

    Like

  334. Ariel
    November 14, 2012 at 11:14 am

    I think that you’re mistaken about the nature of what you should be asking for. This is not the New England Journal of Medicine. Joe said that his son’s symptoms of autism improved on the special diet. My son’s digestive symptoms have improved on the GFCF diet we’re using, though I can’t tell that his symptoms of autism have improved. Maybe his symptoms would improve if we added more fermented foods. Maybe not. Is it worth trying? Probably so. Is a study in the NEJM going to advise us to try it? Probably not. His pediatrician was convinced that I was telling the truth when I told her about his symptoms before and after the diet and wrote a note to the school and approved the school’s giving him digestive enzymes (that I provide) before he eats anything. The doctor did not demand that a team of researchers be sent to our house to verify what he ate and when to determine if it had anything to do with the improvement in his symptoms. Many parents are looking for advice, and would be willing to try diet even if no official study with hundreds of thousands of subjects has been done. Does it seem likely that anyone is going to carry out such a study to determine the effects of diet on some of the symptoms of autism? Should parents wait until such a study is done, or should they seek out information and try different avenues on their own? Is it appropriate for Joe to offer his experience for those who are interested? I think it is, and I am grateful for it.

    Like

  335. Gray Falcon
    November 14, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Ariel, that same standard of evidence was used in the Middle Ages to support the use of bleeding as medicine. There’s a very good reason we have the standards we do.

    Like

  336. November 14, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    @Ariel, There are a number of problems with the approach you are recommending. I could point them out to you, but I fear I’d be subjected to a slew of insults so I will refrain. Suffice it to say, if there is no medical reason to put a child on a diet like this, why would a person do so if it didn’t make sense to them? Add to that there is no science showing any diet, GFCF or otherwise, has made any improvement in actual autism severity, therefore, if my son’s issues are purely related to autism and not physical, why would I try this for myself?

    My problem with Joe’s statements is that he was stating them as if they were fact and not merely opinion, and when I, and others, asked him to provide the study that supported his claims, he became defensive and obtuse and seemed to be acting dumb or assuming we all are with his choice of words, as if we would not be able to follow where his stance had shifted to. There isn’t any scientific fact or data that supports the claim that diet will help with autism. There is data showing that it has no effect though. And when this was pointed out to Joe he became insulting. I don’t put up with being insulted from people I know, why would I put up with it from some random stranger on the internet?

    Like

  337. Chris
    November 14, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Joe, Joe’s friends and sock puppets: Why should we believe Joe’s story over this one? The father explains:

    The final step in my awakening came during a Disneyland vacation. My younger son was still on a gluten- and casein-free diet, which we both swore had been a significant factor in his improvement. We had lugged at least 40 pounds of special food on the plane with us. In an unwatched moment, he snatched a waffle and ate it. We watched with horror and awaited the dramatic deterioration of his condition that the “experts” told us would inevitably occur. The results were astounding—absolutely nothing happened. I began to suspect that I had been very foolish.

    For every family that has a positive story about their special diet, there is another that shows it caused stress, anxiety and did not work.

    This is why we ask for scientific evidence. And the NEJM is not the only publication indexed at PubMed. Also, not all studies are well done, which is why we like to read the whole paper and not just the abstract.

    Like

  338. November 14, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    @Ariel – here is the issue. If a child, any child – autistic or not, has a food allergy or a condition (like IBS, for example) then a change in diet will have an overall effect on that area.

    There is no evidence, none what so ever, that diet will cure or otherwise “treat” autism itself.

    That’s the problem & that’s why we are so insistence on actual evidence, because what is being claimed does not match up with facts.

    Like

  339. January 7, 2013 at 6:00 am

    An intriguing discussion is definitely worth comment.
    I believe that you ought to publish more on this issue, it may not
    be a taboo subject but generally people do not speak about such issues.

    To the next! Cheers!!

    Like

  340. January 7, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    I think Schwinn 431 is a spammer. People don’t talk about such issues? The fact that there are 339 comments on this post alone is pretty clear that is an inaccurate statement. LOL!

    Like

  341. sara
    January 14, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    Vaccine Court: CA Boy has Autism from MMR
    Take Action!

    This in’t supposed to happen.
     
          It happened again. The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine.  Ryan’s family joins Hannah Poling and at least 85 others who have received judgments for vaccine-induced autism from the VICP. These people aren’t supposed to exist. We are told again and again that vaccines cannot cause autism, vaccines have never caused autism, and vaccines never will cause autism.  Except when they do.

          Here is the link to the settlement document.

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/CAMPBELL-SMITH.MOJABI-PROFFER.12.13.2012.pdf

    Like

  342. January 14, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    @sara – incorrect. The plaintiff was awarded compensation due to encephalopathy, which is recognized as a “Table Injury” by the Vaccine Court and appropriated adjudicated as such.

    Try reading the actual court documents before posting.

    Like

  343. Chris
    January 14, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Sara, you need to work on your sums: $969,474.91 is not multi-millions, and even with the other sums and annual additions it does not equal quite go to two million.

    Also it says: “On June 9, 2011, respondent filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule 4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine, see 42 C.F.R. § 100.3(a)(III)(B), and that this case is appropriate for compensation under the terms of the Vaccine Program.”

    That does not prove it was caused by the MMR, it is just that the events were listed on a table of known injuries. Plus it is still just a legal ruling, and has nothing to do with the science.

    Like

  344. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Lawrence and Chris

    You are absolutely ridiculous. Are you attorneys? If not, you should be. Your comments make you look so foolish.

    Like

  345. Chris
    January 14, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    Actually, I am an engineer. I know decimals actually mean something in a number. What part of $969,474.91 being under a million did you not understand? Did you miss the little dot before the “91”?

    Also, did you not understand that the part in between the quotation marks (“) is a direct quote from the legal ruling? Perhaps you should try reading it again.

    And do tell us if you think legal rulings equal medical/science facts, then do make sure when you injure yourself and require medical attention that you limp to your nearest law office be seen by an attorney instead of any kind of real medical care provider.

    Like

  346. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    blah blah blah – read between the lines and the over-all evidence.

    Like

  347. January 14, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    @CJ – so it is “read-between-the-lines” and not the real evidence presented, right?

    Why is it that anti-vaccine cranks claim the Vaccine Court doesn’t work, until something like this pops up & think that it supports their position?

    Like

  348. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Obviously the court disagrees with you Lawrence, why don’t you present your case to them?

    Like

  349. January 14, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    @CJ – the court disagrees, how exactly?

    Like

  350. Chris
    January 14, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Also, my son had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease. He was diagnosed with “static encephalopathy which may or may not be related to the seizures.” He has some autistic behaviors, and has never been diagnosed with autism (it was before DSM IV).

    Just like a speech language disorder does not always equal autism (something business professor Gayle DeLong does not understand), encephalopathy does not always equal autism.

    (By the way, who compensates the victims of the actual diseases?)

    And no, you cannot “read between the lines”, and since it was only the financial terms there is no way to read he “over-all evidence.” If you have a link to the trial testimony, then please provide it. Though again, for the third time, a legal decision is not equivalent to science.

    Like

  351. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Take your complaints to the courts Chris. Where were you when they needed you?

    Like

  352. Gray Falcon
    January 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    @CJ- Are you just picking out words at random now?

    Like

  353. January 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    @CJ – once again, where exactly does the Court disagree?

    Like

  354. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    The court believes “real evidence” was presented Lawrence.

    Like

  355. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    G Falcon do you have anything to add, or just random questions?

    Like

  356. January 14, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    @CJ – the court ruled on the issue of encephalopathy, not autism.

    Did you actually read the ruling?

    Like

  357. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    OK Lawrence

    Like

  358. January 14, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    @CJ – what, nothing more to add? You seemed so sure of yourself…..

    Like

  359. Gray Falcon
    January 14, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    Chris Jones :
    G Falcon do you have anything to add, or just random questions?

    You made no effort whatsoever to address serious flaws in your arguments. In a court system, this is an excellent way to lose a case:
    Judge: The defense has just proved that the alleged victim is still alive. Why are you trying to continue your case?
    Prosecutor: Your honor, how does that disprove that she had been murdered? Are you trying to help a murderer escape justice?

    Like

  360. January 14, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    @Gray – all one has to do is read the actual Court documents. The parents first tried to claim that their child’s condition was linked to the MMR, but subsequently revised their claim to solely rest on the encephalopathy, which, as a Vaccine Table Injury, allowed the case to go forward and the claim to be paid.

    I can only assume that the anti-vaccine blogosphere will go nuts over the next few weeks – regardless of the actual facts of the case.

    Like

  361. novalox
    January 14, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    @cj

    You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. And your opinions don’t back up the facts in the case.

    Like

  362. Chris Jones
    January 14, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    Petitioners
    alleged that as a result of “all the vaccinations administered to [Ryan] from March 25,
    2003, through February 22, 2005, and more specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR)
    vaccinations administered to him on December 19, 2003 and May 10, 2004,” Ryan
    suffered “a severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum
    Disorder (‘ASD’).” Petition at 1. Petitioners specifically asserted that Ryan “suffered a
    Vaccine Table Injury, namely, an encephalopathy” as a result of his receipt of the MMR
    vaccination on December 19, 2003. Id. In the alternative, petitioners asserted that “as a
    cumulative result of his receipt of each and every vaccination between March 25, 2003
    and February 22, 2005, Ryan has suffered . . . neuroimmunologically mediated
    dysfunctions in the form of asthma and ASD.” Id. at 1-2.

    On June 9, 2011, respondent filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule
    4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine
    Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the
    December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine, see 42 C.F.R. § 100.3(a)(III)(B), and that this case is
    appropriate for compensation under the terms of the Vaccine Program.

    Like

  363. Chris
    January 14, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    CJ, now you have to show that the MMR causes encephalopathy at the same rate as measles: once for every thousand cases of measles.

    By the way it is being discussed at JustTheVax blog. It includes quotes from another US Court pdf that describes the little boy at two years old.

    His symptoms match my son when he was two years old, including the less than dozen words of vocabulary and forgetting words. My son had seizures from an actual disease, so how do we get compensated for his injuries?

    Like

  364. Lawrence
    January 14, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    @CJ – well, you can quote. But notice that only the issues after the amended complaint on the 9th were ruled upon….hence the vaccine table injury, not autism.

    Like

  365. January 15, 2013 at 7:09 am
  366. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Convenient excuses and splitting hairs.

    Like

  367. January 15, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @CJ – and yet you provide no evidence of your own…typical anti-vaccine behavior.

    Like

  368. January 15, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    @CJ – because the actual case documents tell a different story than what you’d like them to say:

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Campbell-Smith.Mojabi.pdf

    For instance……

    Like

  369. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    There is no evidence to provide, the document is the evidence, and you are the one splitting hairs.

    Like

  370. January 15, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    @CJ – I don’t believe you’ve bothered to read the actual Court documents, because even at a glance, one finds quite a number of inconsistencies in testimony and evidence, not to mention the ultimate determination of the Court – which was the award based on the Vaccine Table Injury of Encephalopathy which may have been the result of the MMR Vaccine (since all you need to do in Vaccine Court is prove that the two instances could be linked – need not provide definitive proof).

    You’re dealing with a Court of Law – slightly different from the standard Civil Court procedures, but a Court nonetheless. So unless you can show differently, the case documents and ruling don’t say what you think they say.

    Like

  371. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Lawrence

    I have read it and still agree with Sara.

    To say “all you need is this that or the other in Vaccine Court” to get awarded is very convenient for you isn’t it? One doesn’t really have to prove anything to get awarded, so therefore there really wasn’t proof.

    BTW…what do you think happens to somebody with Encephalopathy?

    Like

  372. January 15, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    @CJ – then you don’t really know how the process and procedures in the Vaccine Court operate then, do you?

    As far as encephalopathy – it isn’t autism.

    Like

  373. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    What is encephalopathy Lawrence? Please enlighten me.

    Like

  374. January 15, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    @CJ – autism had its day in the Vaccine Court. Out of a couple of thousand of “cases” the plaintiffs selected their base ones & submitted them for evaluation and ruling by the Special Masters. At the end of the day, despite all of the “evidence” that the plaintiffs provided, they were unable to even meet the lax burden of proof to link vaccines to autism – meaning they were unable to provide even biological plausibility to their arguments.

    Hence, you can say whatever you want, but the evidence just doesn’t exist to back up your claims.

    Like

  375. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    I’ll help you…

    What is Encephalopathy?
    Encephalopathy is a term for any diffuse disease of the brain that alters brain function or structure. Encephalopathy may be caused by infectious agent (bacteria, virus, or prion), metabolic or mitochondrial dysfunction, brain tumor or increased pressure in the skull, prolonged exposure to toxic elements (including solvents, drugs, radiation, paints, industrial chemicals, and certain metals), chronic progressive trauma, poor nutrition, or lack of oxygen or blood flow to the brain. The hallmark of encephalopathy is an altered mental state. Depending on the type and severity of encephalopathy, common neurological symptoms are progressive loss of memory and cognitive ability, subtle personality changes, inability to concentrate, lethargy, and progressive loss of consciousness. Other neurological symptoms may include myoclonus (involuntary twitching of a muscle or group of muscles), nystagmus (rapid, involuntary eye movement), tremor, muscle atrophy and weakness, dementia, seizures, and loss of ability to swallow or speak. Blood tests, spinal fluid examination, imaging studies, electroencephalograms, and similar diagnostic studies may be used to differentiate the various causes of encephalopathy.

    http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/encephalopathy/encephalopathy.htm

    Like

  376. January 15, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    Darn, I meant to say, “best ones.”

    Like

  377. January 15, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    @CJ – And I don’t see autism listed in there at all, do you?

    Like

  378. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    Lawrence

    “@CJ – autism had its day in the Vaccine Court. Out of a couple of thousand of “cases” the plaintiffs selected their base ones & submitted them for evaluation and ruling by the Special Masters. At the end of the day, despite all of the “evidence” that the plaintiffs provided, they were unable to even meet the lax burden of proof to link vaccines to autism – meaning they were unable to provide even biological plausibility to their arguments.”

    I thought a legal decision is not equivalent to science???

    Like

  379. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Lawrence

    “@CJ – And I don’t see autism listed in there at all, do you?”

    So now you are back to splitting hairs.

    Like

  380. January 15, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    @CJ – you’ve lost on both fronts – the Science doesn’t support the hypothesis & the Court based their ruling on the Science.

    And since there are tests for encephalopathy, don’t you think that if it was related to autism, it would be pretty easy to identify?

    Seriously CJ, use some logic in your reasoning, because I’m not seeing any.

    Like

  381. January 15, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    @CJ – “splitting hairs?” It doesn’t say it CJ, so you can’t make it so. Just like the ruling you’re trying to hang your hat on – it doesn’t say what you think it says, so you’re the one making excuses…..how about offering up some real science or proof?

    Like

  382. January 15, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    @Chris Jones Contrary to popular belief by the anti-vaccine factions, autism is not brain damage. None of the symptoms you listed that are associated with encephalopathy are even remotely associated with autism. You are the one splitting hairs, by attempting to place a different label on one condition when it is clearly something entirely different. Just as autism is not mercury poisoning (the symptoms of mercury poisoning are nothing like the characteristics found in autism) neither is encephalopathy. It’s time to face facts, the data just don’t bake up your belief system, they never have and new research into genetic factors are finding more and more that autism is genetic in nature. Your horse has died, been beaten raw and buried 6 feet under. It’s time to let it rest and stop trying to resurrect it.

    Like

  383. January 15, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    @Lara – agreed. Autism is a lot of things, but it isn’t encephalopathy.

    Like

  384. January 15, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    @Lara – just as the anti-vaccine folks have moved the goal posts again and again and again (Thimerasol, Aluminum, too many too soon, toxins, etc, etc, etc) – they have to grasp on to the next thing, as each and every one of their so-called “hypotheses” are shot down by real Science.

    In the case of encephalopathy – we have a good grasp of what it is and how to identify it (and its causes), so this one won’t even pass the smell test.

    Like

  385. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Excuse me….the definition of Encephalopathy is very broad and open to many things. Brain swelling and brain injuries can cause all kinds of symptoms, including autism.

    Like

  386. Lara Lohne
    January 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    @Chris Jones, Incorrect. Autism is not swelling in the brain, but early brain cell over growth and then over aggressive pruning (which results in many cases of regression). This is significantly different from swelling of the brain. And again autism is not brain injury, it is genetically determined neurological differences in how the brain is constructed.

    Like

  387. January 15, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    @lara – once again, correct. The Anti-Vaccine folks are trying to shoe-horn in their “definition” to fit a situation where it does not apply. The same, as you mentioned, applied with them trying to say mercury poisoning & autism were the same (same symptoms, etc), when in fact they are two completely different things, and present completely differently.

    I.E. CJ, your “broad” definition still doesn’t apply.

    Like

  388. novalox
    January 15, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    @cj

    Once again, you are entitled to your opinions, however wrong they are (which in your case, they are), but you are not entitled to your own facts, which state that you are wrong.

    Like

  389. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    Encephalopathy is a general term that means brain disease, damage, or malfunction. Encephalopathy is manifested by an altered mental state and accompanied by physical manifestations.

    Like

  390. Lawrence
    January 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    @CJ – except that it doesn’t apply to autism. You can’t shoehorn in a definition just because you want to. We can easily identify this condition and it isn’t autism.

    Give up the ghost CJ.

    Like

  391. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    Lawrence,

    You can’t tell me every single thing this does to a person. For you or anyone to say it absolutely does not cause those symptoms is very naive.

    Enjoy your not Lawrnece, gotta run.

    Like

  392. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    night

    Like

  393. January 15, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    This is not specifically related to encephalopathy, but mitochondrial disease and autism.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/mitochondrial-faq.html

    If one reads and comprehends the information as it is being presented, it’s pretty clear that autism and encephalopathy are completely different, considering that “Most children with an autism spectrum disorder do not and have not had an encephalopathy. ” even though, “Some children with an autism spectrum disorder have had regression and some have had a regressive encephalopathy.” It’s pretty clear to me that encephalopathy and autism are two distinct things. My son has autism, but he never had encephalopathy. He had regression also, but not encephalopathy. My son is perfectly healthy, happy and thriving. He just happens to have autism, but he doesn’t have brain damage or injury.

    So you see, Chris Jones, yeah, Lawrence can’t tell you every single thing this does to a person, but scientists and doctors who have studies this for years have a pretty good idea and they make their data public, so Lawrence can access it and find out what they have to say about it, and what they have to say about it is that autism and encephalopathy are not related at all.

    Like

  394. Chris Jones
    January 15, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Brain damage does all sorts of things, there is no way you could possibly know the the full extent of the damage done. Also, if the vaccine caused the brain injury, it also caused all sorts of issues with the body as well.
    Tell you what Lara, next time you get brain damage from a vaccine, we can argue about how you say you feel vs. what you should feel like….OK?
    There are many roads to autism and your son is only one example.

    Like

  395. Lara Lohne
    January 15, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    My son is not in the minority, since actually most autistic individuals have a genetic factor. Autism is not brain damage, because brain damage cannot be ‘recovered’ from, yet autistic individuals can make progress to the point they can lose their autism diagnosis. That is because autism is developmental delay, not stasis, therefore not brain damage. Regardless of what you believe regarding autism and encephalopathy, vaccines being the cause of autism is far fetched, and cases of vaccine induced encephalopathy are extremely rare, much less frequent then the cases of autism, so it stands to reason, one cannot be the other. And vaccines are not to blame within that mix anyway.

    Like

  396. January 16, 2013 at 6:47 am

    @Lara – you’re on a roll, another excellent point. Autism is not “developmental stasis,” but developmental delay. Over time, most children with autism will improve and hit the various milestones, in fits and starts of course, but improve nonetheless.

    @CJ – you’re seeking to expand the diagnosis of autism to include brain damage – which is yet another “moving of the goal posts.” As novalox has pointed out, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts – and in this case, the facts don’t even begin to support your argument.

    Like

  397. Chris Jones
    January 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Lara, are you an MD or PHD or something? Seems like you have autism all figured out and you should let the rest of the community know about your findings.

    Autism could be a combination of genetic factors and other contributing factors as well.
    Brain damage can be recovered from…it happens all of the time.

    Lawrence, nobody is moving goal posts. I happen to know for a fact that one of my relatives with autism also has swelling in his brain and as they have taken down the swelling he has improved is some areas.

    Like

  398. Lara Lohne
    January 16, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    I’m a mother of six children, the youngest of which has autism. My knowledge about autism is because I read what the expert researchers have to say about it and what new research has been finding. It’s available to anyone who knows how to properly search for it and has the ability to use critical thinking skills when reviewing it. Nobody has autism all figured out, but what has been found is accessible to anyone. Your statement is intentionally inflammatory.

    Autism may have some environmental influences, but those have nothing to do with post natal environment, and still the genetic factor comes into play. There are over 300 genes that have been found to be linked to autism and ASD development. Some are contributory, others are protective. That much is evident in the research that has been done. An example could be, a person has the genetic susceptibility for developing ASD, the environmental factor may be there also, but if they have the genetic protection against ASD, they will not develop ASD. The same could be said in reverse also.

    Again, you are completely missing the point. The link I provided said yes, some people with autism have encephalopathy, some do not, and some without autism have encephalopathy, and some do not. Just as some with autism have blond hair and some do not, and some without autism have blond hair, and some do not. One has nothing to do with the other. Encephalopathy in and of itself is not in any way contributory to autism, but it can cause other issues on top of autism (co-morbid), which can sometimes cause autistic behavior to be more pronounced. Again, autism is developmental delay, not stasis, so expect them to make improvements. Your statements and experience do not in any way prove your beliefs regarding autism, brain damage and encephalopathy. Just as my own do not, but both are still valid experiences, they just don’t prove anything one way or the other, because you cannot have a study be conclusive when n=1. In order to see the entire picture, you have to look at many, many more individuals and cases to develop a norm, which is how the CDC is able to state what it does regarding encephalopathy and autism.

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  399. January 16, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    @CJ – once again, what we know about autism does not include encephalopathy – they aren’t related. And yes, you are moving goal posts, because once again, you’ve latched on to a singular idea as a “cause” without the scientific evidence to back it up.

    You would think, after a few decades of research, that it would have been very easy to spot signs of encephalopathy in autistic individuals (since we have very good tests to identify the signs and causes) – except that we haven’t.

    So please, unless you have some PubMed research that shows something to the contrary – your position is not supportable by the evidence.

    Like

  400. Chris Jones
    January 16, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Lara,

    “you have to look at many, many more individuals and cases to develop a norm”

    Exactly, you don’t know and there are many paths, you just admitted some with autism have encephalopathy.

    Lawrence,

    “once again, what we know about autism does not include encephalopathy – they aren’t related.”
    Lara disagrees with you.

    “And yes, you are moving goal posts, because once again, you’ve latched on to a singular idea as a “cause” without the scientific evidence to back it up.”

    I am stating just the opposite of a singular idea; I stated there are many paths to autism.

    Like

  401. January 16, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    @Chris – it is quite possible to have many things & autism – like a broken arm & autism, an upset stomach and autism, a hang-nail and autism, but it doesn’t mean the two of them are related. In fact, what Lara & I said aren’t at odds with each other – you can have encephalopathy & autism at the same time, but the two are not related (i.e. one does not cause the other).

    Autism presents itself as something completely different (and in fact, many different ways – in which you are correct). The one thing the Science does allow us to say, after two decades of research, is that vaccines do not cause autism. The research has been done CJ & despite what you would like to think, the relation just isn’t there.

    If you have actual evidence to the contrary, please post it here for review.

    Like

  402. Chris Jones
    January 16, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    Not what you said Lawrence.

    “what we know about autism does not include encephalopathy”

    Now you say it can.

    I believe vaccines to contribute to autism. So I will disagree with you Lawrence.

    Good night.

    Like

  403. Lawrence
    January 16, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    @CJ – nope, Lara and I both agree. You can have autism and encephalopathy at the same time, but they aren’t related.

    Like

  404. January 16, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    Chris Jones :
    Lara,
    “you have to look at many, many more individuals and cases to develop a norm”
    Exactly, you don’t know and there are many paths, you just admitted some with autism have encephalopathy.

    To all those who are observing, and FYI: this is a perfect example of cherry picking. He took one thing I said, left out everything else, and uses this to say that I agree with him, that encephalopathy causes autism, when in fact, everything else that he left out says exactly the opposite.

    Chris Jones, yes, some with autism have encephalopathy. Some without autism have encephalopathy. Most with autism actually DO NOT have encephalopathy. the two are just as relevant to each other as the color of a person’s hair. Did you get it this time or do you need me to be more clear then that? I personally have not experienced these situations with various individuals who have autism or not, and/or encephalopathy or not, so this knowledge is not mine by personal experience. However, I am actually a pretty avid reader, and have very good reading comprehension. That being the case, I can read what other people have found that they have studied over the years. Therefore, their knowledge can become my knowledge, even if I don’t personally experience it. Again, a person with autism can also have encephalopathy, but they are two separate and distinct diagnoses, one does not cause the other, and vice verse. There are many paths to autism, generally they begin at conception and are determined prior to a child being born. Vaccines have nothing to do with it, otherwise we’d have a lot more autistic individuals then we do, since more then 1 in 88 people get vaccinated.

    Like

  405. novalox
    January 16, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    @cj

    Twisting other people’s words to misrepresent what they say isn’t really honest and implies that your argument is deficient.

    So again, [citation needed], or we assume that you are just trolling.

    Like

  406. February 1, 2013 at 12:11 am

    This will be a great web page, could you be involved in doing an interview regarding just how you designed it? If so e-mail me!

    Like

  407. Bill W.
    March 28, 2013 at 3:07 am

    Well, if markers for autism are there before vaccination, then i guess maybe we can forgoe vaccination in an effort to avoid further problems; but then, NO DINERO for the drug companies.
    The monkey studies have also been highly criticized as a waste of primates. Here is just one, but I’m sure other readers will be able to provide more links: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/16/too-much-vaccineautism-monkey-business-f/
    You are using your kids as guinea pigs for a much more risky study. You are leaving your kids vulnerable to diseases that have the real potential to harm your children. Vaccines are extensively tested for safety and efficiency before being licensed. Vaccines are continuously monitored after being licensed. I’ll gladly choose the path which offers the least amount of risk to my children by vaccinating. I think it is deplorable that you are willing to let your children suffer from your ignorance.

    Lara Lohne :
    For you information, Mr Frye, Mr. Wakefield’s study had been done, on a larger basis and they tried, without success, multiple times in fact, to replicate his results. Obviously, if data is forged or tampered with, it’s no wonder his results couldn’t be replicated. The numbers regarding autism you are stating are not correct. Most children are found to have developmental delays prior to the age of three, in my son’s case, he was 2 when we began to suspect it was autism, but in my state they don’t begin the actual autism evaluation until a child who is already delayed, turns 3. Looking back on my son from birth, there were, challenges that none of my other children had. I brought this up to his father at the time, I’ve never had a child that was this challenging. he said his other two had been so I chalked it up to his genes and just having an extremely willful child. He also had regression around the age of 14 – 18 months, losing skills, language he previously had and developing stimming and repetitive behaviors. But he was not vaccinated. It wasn’t until his symptoms couldn’t be ignored any longer that his vaccinations were caught up and that was so he could participate in the Early Intervention program. Also, new studies are finding that the adult population is showing similar numbers of cases of autism as the children being born now, after being evaluated using the new DSM diagnostic criteria, that being the case, there really hasn’t been any increase in the rates of autism, just that we are more aware and can identify it better. Autism doesn’t just happen, the markers are there long before any vaccines are given. If a child is going to have autism, they will have it with or without vaccines. Numerous numbers of children with autism who were not vaccinated attest to that.

    Like

  408. July 9, 2013 at 10:04 am

    Hi, I want to subscribe for this weblog to take most up-to-date updates, so where can i do it please help.

    Like

  1. June 5, 2012 at 8:42 pm
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