Home > Get Involved, Parent Perspective, Preventable Diseases, Testimonials > Moms Who Vax Are Speaking Out

Moms Who Vax Are Speaking Out

Last week I heard about a woman, opposed to vaccines, that presents business cards to random strangers, like the pregnant teller at the bank.  The card directs people to information that is intended to deter them from immunizing their children.  While this woman is a prime example of the vocal minority, the truth is that the majority of parents vaccinate their children as recommended.  They just don’t feel the need to advertise it to strangers.  But perhaps it’s time for this to change.

The Moms Who Vax blog is an excellent representation of parents who are speaking out in favor of immunizations.  With increasing cases of vaccine preventable diseases, along with growing numbers of intentionally unvaccinated children, some parents are becoming more vocal in their immunization advocacy efforts.  Parents, like Jessica Parker, have decided to speak out – on blogs, on Facebook threads, in mommy chat rooms, directly to their members of Congress and, most importantly, to other parents who are faced with decisions concerning their children’s health and immunizations.

Jessica explains why she has become so passionate about this issue;

“I never even knew of the pro-/anti-vax battleground until I had children. It was never something I questioned, and it was never an option to consider not protecting them. The mere list of symptoms and long-lasting effects of preventable diseases was enough to convince me to vaccinate my kids. Then, when I got pregnant with my second child, a friend gave me an anti-vax book in hopes that I would change my mind. I’ll admit, it made me angry. The outright lies were easy to see through. All it did was fuel my passion to educate others on vaccination.”

Recently, Jessica returned from a trip where she made a surprising discovery.  A disease, which is now vaccine preventable, had impacted her family in ways she had never known.  Her story appears on Moms Who Vax to remind parents of the differences vaccines have made in our lives today – for us, as parents, as well as for our children.   

How Measles Made a Mark on My Family, by Jessica Parker

I’m sure many mothers can relate when I say that family is my world. My extended family tells me where I came from. My parents helped shape who I am today. My sister was my first friend. My husband is my teammate. My children are my legacy. Family is one thing I will never tire of investing in (though I do have my moments of needing a break), and my children are one thing I will always fight to protect.

I recently got the chance to visit my husband’s family in Virginia. I love knowing our roots, so going through old letters and pictures was a must for me as I spent time with his grandma, Virginia. Seeing her eyes go distant as she spoke of memories from her childhood made me realize she was reliving every moment she recounted, from the good to the bad. It was almost like living through them again with her. I walked down memory lane with Grandma as she told stories of her late husband building churches with his bare hands, funny road trips with four daughters, and the whirlwind of moves she made all over the country with those four daughters. She pulled out a big three-ring binder full of photocopied letters, pictures, and every bit of information available on her eleven brothers and sisters. Grandma started down the list, telling about each sibling, who they married, where they went to school, where they lived, where they died, etc.

However, when she got to her sister Dovie Martin, she paused before sharing that Dovie (born January 4, 1902) died at the age of fourteen. Her sister, Ivy Martin (born April 24, 1912), died at the age of four. The sisters died on the same evening, February 29, 1916, in their home, from measles.  The sisters had contracted measles from their pregnant mother, Lillie. Lillie survived, and gave birth to baby Pansy five days later, on March 5, 1916.  Four months and nineteen days later, baby Pansy died from complications from Lillie’s case of measles.

I took a moment to let this sink in. I thought of my own children, and of what it must have been like for Lillie, pregnant, holding her daughters as they died. To know that the baby that you are carrying is probably going to die as well.  (To continue reading Jessica’s post, visit the Moms Who Vax blog here)

If this story, and others on the Moms Who Vax blog, inspire you to become a more vocal advocate for vaccines, than sign up to “Get Involved” on the Vaccinate Your Baby website.  If you have a story you wish to share, let us know at shotofprevention@gmail.com.  It’s only when we speak out, that we can be heard and our combined voices will make an impact on parents who are unaware or uncertain about the benefits of immunizations. 

  1. May 10, 2012 at 10:53 am

    I love the Moms Who Vax Blog. It’s great to hear from real-life moms who realize the importance of immunizations. They also understand the need to educate within communities, and speak out to families, friends and others. It’s admirable that they are will to share their stories and risk the backlash of those who don’t understand the real risk of vaccine-preventable diseases.
    Like Jessica states in her post, vaccines have drastically changed parenting. Unlike her grandmother who had to bury a four year old sister when measles struck, she and most mother’s in countries with easily accessible healthcare, no longer have to worry about these preventable tragedies. It’s my dream that one day in the future we will look back and see all countries conquer these diseases and then no mother will have to bury their child due to a vaccine-preventable disease.

    Like

  2. May 10, 2012 at 11:19 am

    I totally agree. I run the Moms Who Vax website along with other concerned parents, and I often ask the question: do you think there are any anti-vax moms in Haiti? I think the reason that you’d be hard-pressed to find an anti-vax parent in a place were vaccine-preventable diseases are killing children and where vaccines are hard to find is because the horror is on the doorstep. It’s not theoretical.

    Like

  3. S Loire
    May 10, 2012 at 11:21 am

    I only hope one of these moms do not end up with a really sick kid. If they keep vaccinating they will….what will be the story then?

    Like

  4. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 11:34 am

    @S Loire – ummmm, you do realize that vaccines prevent diseases, right?

    As opposed to unvaccinated kids that do get very sick, with Measles, Mumps, Rubella, etc….

    Like

  5. Calvina
    May 10, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Of course they died of measles in 1902. The standard care for a fever was a wet wash cloth and cod liver oil. I doubt non-vaxing moms use the 1902 version of standard version of care.

    Like

  6. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 11:47 am

    And what would be the level of care for measles in 2012 from a parent who decided to not prevent measles? How would they deal with the pneumonia (often from a secondary bacterial infection) and one in a thousand that get encephalitis? See
    The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review.

    Would they have saved money by getting their child into the hospital instead of getting two doses of the MMR vaccine. And what exactly are the relative risks between measles and the MMR vaccine. Please post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed papers that support your answer.

    Like

  7. May 10, 2012 at 11:50 am

    I’d like to know why it makes sense to inject yourself or your child with foreign animal DNA, formaldehyde, mercury and other toxic agents. I believe in a Divine creator, and I believe our bodies were created in a perfect manner, not created to accept Man’s egotistical poisons. Parents who don’t vaccinate are well-educated and well-informed parents. We do not believe the lies of the big pharma cartel. Many, many doctors and nurses are now stepping forward and sharing the damage they have seen from vaccinations to young children and teenagers. Many scientists are now stepping forward as well. And let’s not forget the many parents with damaged children that are stepping forward.

    I highly encourage people to not take my word for it, you don’t know me of course, or anyone else’s word for it, do your own research. Read books by doctors and scientists that caution against vaccines, read why historical data on vaccines is a lie. It’s been a money game from the very beginning. It is Frankenstein science. Did you know that one way of hiding the fact that vaccines don’t work is to change disease names? Historical data has been and can be manipulated. Isn’t that interesting. Make informed decisions and not ones based on fear propagated by a money, drug monster that wants you to be reliant upon their every false chemical savior.

    Like

  8. Jessica Montero
    May 10, 2012 at 11:57 am

    I would like start out by saying that this story was a very sad and heartbreaking one. I cannot imagine losing not one but three children. That being said I would like to discuss my side of the vax controversy.
    I am very sick of the attack on non-vaxing or alternative vaxing parents. In a perfect world vaccines would be 100% effective and come without side effects….but this is not the case. The truth is that vaccines are made with quite toxic and dangerous chemicals that come with very real and serious potential side effects. The big drug companies do not have our children’s best interests at heart….the almighty dollar always reigns supreme.
    I think that vaccination is a serious choice that each family needs to make for themselves. I also feel that we ALL need to demand safer vaccines for our children.

    Like

  9. James Longfellow
    May 10, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    A question for all you sheople who never question authority and blindly follow the advice of your vaccine and sick care profiteer lining your kids up for their toxic injection. Do you ask the salesman on the car lot whether you need a new car or not?
    Just for your information here is a list of the other ingredients and fillers contained in most vaccines.

    LIST OF FLU VACCINE FILLERS: Officially administered by design with every vaccine provided to the public –
    In addition to the viral and bacterial RNA or DNA that is part of the vaccines, here are the fillers:
    aluminum hydroxide (linked to neurological disorders and diseases)
    aluminum phosphate (linked to neurological disorders and diseases)
    ammonium sulfate (chemical soil fertilizer)
    amphotericin B (antibiotic)
    animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
    dog kidney, monkey kidney (suspected source of the AIDS virus)
    chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
    calf (bovine) serum (coagulated cow blood)
    betapropiolactone (sterilizer)
    fetal bovine serum (coagulated cow fetus blood)
    formaldehyde (A known carcinogen with no safe level ever established)
    formalin (formaldehyde mixed with other ingredients)
    gelatin
    glycerol
    human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
    hydrolized gelatin
    monosodium glutamate (MSG) (known to cause heart palpitations and other problems)
    neomycin (an antibiotic)
    neomycin sulfate (another antibiotic)
    nonoxynol 9 (spermicide)
    phenol red indicator (red dye)
    phenoxyethanol (main ingredient in antifreze)
    potassium diphosphate (potassium salt)
    potassium monophosphate (more potassium salt)
    polymyxin B (and yet another antibiotic)
    polysorbate 80 (artificial preseravtive)
    porcine pancreatic hydrolysate of casein (from the pancreas of pigs)
    residual MRC5 proteins(cells from aborted fetuses
    sqaulene (an extract from the livers of deep sea sharks)
    sorbitol (artificial sweetener)
    sucrose (sugar)
    thimerosal (50% mercury, a known neurotoxin linked to autism)
    tri(n)butylphosphate (a plasticizer)
    VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells (suspected source of the AIDS virus)
    washed sheep red blood cells

    Like

  10. May 10, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    I could share many, many doctor and scientist names who are educating people on the false science of vaccines. Here are a few, I encourage people to research these people. Dr. Viera Scheibner, Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, Dr. J Anthony Morris (former chief vaccine control officer), Dr. Archie Kalokerinos, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, Dr. Gary Null and Dr. Andrew Moulton just to name a few.

    Like

  11. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    The truth is that vaccines are made with quite toxic and dangerous chemicals that come with very real and serious potential side effects.

    Well, sort of. The parts that you are missing is that the chemicals in vaccine are not dangerous nor toxic in the concentrations found in vaccines and the real and potentially serious side effects from vaccines are extremely rare. Furthermore, the side effects of getting a VPD are much more frequent and much more serious.

    The big drug companies do not have our children’s best interests at heart….the almighty dollar always reigns supreme.

    Well sort of. The companies may not have our children’s best interests at heart but the people that invent, develop and recommend vaccines do. You see, most people think that preventing diseases that have the potential to cause suffering, permanent injury in death is in the best interests of children. Only the pro-disease crowd prefers to put their children at a greater risk of harm for their ideology and ignore the interests of their children entirely.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. May 10, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Don’t have time to read research? There are tons of informative and educational videos on YouTube with doctor, scientist and parent testimonies against vaccines. Educate yourself before throwing out opinions and judgement towards people who have chosen not to vaccinate.

    Most people who vaccinate have never researched vaccines or alternative historical data. They just do what someone has told them to do.

    When you start looking at some of the information on the other side of what drug companies are telling you, you will start to see and hear things you haven’t before, and this will lead to more questions and you’ll want more answers. A bigger picture will emerge. Some people may want to hold firm to what they believe as to not shake their reality, but I believe if more people just do their own research, they’ll be surprised to learn that their reality and beliefs on vaccines have changed.

    Best wishes on finding truth.

    Like

  13. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    I believe in a Divine creator, and I believe our bodies were created in a perfect manner, not created to accept Man’s egotistical poisons.

    Do you only eat plants that have never been bred by humans to create more edible strains? So you eat no apples, corn, carrots, oat, rice, and on and on. They were created by humans through selective breeding.

    It’s been a money game from the very beginning.

    Oh, please tell us with supporting scientific evidence how treating measles, mumps and rubella is so much cheaper than two doses of the MMR vaccine.

    Did you know that one way of hiding the fact that vaccines don’t work is to change disease names? Historical data has been and can be manipulated. Isn’t that interesting.

    So if you don’t like the historical data you can just say someone made it up? So if measles has not gone away, what is it called now? Right now the name that comes in mind for your claims is “conspiracy theorist.”

    Like

  14. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    I think this doesn’t make sense to you Kelly because you don’t understand the vaccine ingredients. We encounter animal DNA all the time. It is not a threat to us. Our body makes way more formaldehyde on a daily basis than what is found in vaccines. Some vaccines used to contain thimerosal, not mercury, however, thimerosal has been removed from all childhood vaccines.

    If our bodies are made perfect, why do people die from disease?

    Parents who don’t vaccinate are well-educated and well-informed parents.

    Well, this hard to believe when your reasons for not vaccinating are because: (i) you don’t understand the vaccine ingredients, (ii) you believe a magical being will protect your children, (iii) you believe in conspiracy theories, (iv) you manufacture fake vaccine injuries to make vaccines look like a bigger risk then they are, and (v) your post contains the logical fallacy “appeal to popularity”.

    Damn right I’m not going to take the word of someone so uneducated and uninformed as yourself when it comes to my children. Here is a list of credible sites to read about vaccines. These sources will explain why anti-vaxer Kelly has no idea what she is talking about.
    http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/approved_vaccine_safety_websites/en/

    Make informed decisions and not ones based on fear propagated by a money, drug monster that wants you to be reliant upon their every false chemical savior.

    The irony of this statement cracked me up. Informed decisions does not involve reading books by quacks that want to profit from your gullibility and you cited God as your savior from disease.

    Like

  15. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    There is no thimerosal or adjuvants in the MMR vaccine.

    And I had chicken embryos for breakfast. They were yummy.

    Squalene is produced in your liver as a precursor to cholesterol in much bigger quantities than any European vaccine (it is not used in the USA). Is it terrible enough that children should have there livers removed so prevent the production of the evil squalene?

    Really, you should learn a bit about what you are cutting and pasting from a random website. Perhaps a class in basic biology and chemistry.

    Like

  16. May 10, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Pro-disease crowd? Mmmm….that’s a little scare tactic there.

    If parents who vaccinate are so firm in their belief that vaccines work, why are you worried about those who do not? Your vaccinated children are not at risk, right?

    Our bodies can be nurtured to be healthy and strong through natural methods. We don’t need chemicals. Chemical drugs only cover symptoms. They do not cure or heal. Chemical drugs are very damaging to our bodies in any form.

    Like

  17. May 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Eating eggs and injecting animal DNA and chemicals into your blood are very separate things. That’s not a very scientific thing to say from someone suggesting science class has all the answers.

    Like

  18. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    “The companies may not have our children’s best interests at heart but the people that invent, develop and recommend vaccines do.”

    Really? Because scientists are all good, unselfish individuals that put mankind above all else! PUHLEEZE! Scientists want to be well known, they want to win prizes and accolades, as well as research grants. Have you ever spoken to a scientist? They have GIANT egos and don’t believe in anything unless it can be “scientifically proven.” How many “scientifically proven” ideals have be debunked over the years? How many medical treatments or drugs have been found to be harmful after the were professed to have been a “miracle drug/treatment? Remember when doctors used to promote Camel cigarettes? There is tons of bad science out there, just start looking. I really can’t wrap my head around the people who do not realize money and power corrupts, period. People want money and fame, not just tv/movie actors, doctors, scientists, politicians….money is THE motivating factor in this world, believe it! Let me ask all of you…What would you do for 10 million dollars, or what WOULDN”T you do?

    Like

  19. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    Well, here I am questioning your authority and not taking your word for your fake list of flu vaccine ingredients.

    – The influenza virus is a RNA virus. It is not bacteria nor does it contain DNA.
    – There are no animal tissues in vaccines. They won’t fit through the needle.
    – The “AIDS” virus is HIV, and it has a human reservoir, not vaccines.
    – The influenza virus is grown in eggs for the vaccine, thus there is no calf serum, or fetal bovine serum, human diploid cells, prcine pancreatic hydrolysae of casein, residual MRC5 proteins, VERO cells or washed sheep RBC.
    – The influenza virus is separated from the eggs to make the vaccine, so there is no chick embryo, chicken egg or duck egg in the vaccine either.
    – a safe level of formaldehyde has been established. The body makes 10X the amount of formaldehyde found in a vaccine, every day. If this amount wasn’t safe, we’d all be dead, and this is 10X MORE than what’s in the vaccine. I’m not worried.
    – you are lying about aluminum salts being linked to neurological disorders and diseases

    So, speaking of never questioning authority, which site did you copy and paste this list from without thinking about it first? A very quick glance down the list generates a huge amount of errors. I haven’t even gone to compare the package inserts with the real ingredients to this fake list yet. I wonder what other mistakes I will find? Off the top of my head, I’m suspicious about the antibiotics, betapropiolactone, gelatin, glycerol, MSG, nonoxynol 9, phenol read indicator, phenoxyethanol, squalene, sorbitol, sucrose and tri(n)butylphospate. That is a pretty big list of fail on your part James.

    Like

  20. May 10, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    I’m not out to debate or convince anyone. I’m only posting here to encourage people to do their own research. All the best to each and everyone of you for making the best decision you can for yourself and your family. Be well! :0)

    Like

  21. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Viera Scheibner is a geologist. Gary Null has a mail order degree, and the rest are not reputable. They are hardly a source of truth, especially those that fudge their education.

    Again, post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed papers that support your statements that the MMR is more dangerous than the measles. You made a claim, therefore you must support it.

    Here are some of my research:
    Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998

    Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

    JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
    Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

    Like

  22. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    Dr. Viera Scheibner, Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, Dr. J Anthony Morris (former chief vaccine control officer), Dr. Archie Kalokerinos, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, Dr. Gary Null and Dr. Andrew Moulton just to name a few.

    Yup, that pretty much sums up the list of anti-vax quacks I’ve every encountered. None of these people are educated about vaccines. They just like to lie to you so they can profit from your gullibility.

    An educated person would know that YouTube videos are not reliable sources of information. If you don’t have a lot of time to read about vaccines, you can just read reliable websites and avoid the anti-vax hysteria.

    http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/approved_vaccine_safety_websites/en/

    Like

  23. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    Which vaccines go into the blood?

    And how do you avoid bug bites? And you have never ever scratched yourself of skinned a knee?

    Like

  24. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Well, thank you for your contribution on how to demonstrate how not to find information on vaccines, Kelly.

    We encourage people to find reliable information about vaccines and to avoid the pitfalls that you have fallen in.

    In order to make the best decision, you need the best information. Your sources are crap, so you might want to think again about whether you made the best decision for your family, Kelly.

    Like

  25. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    M-M-R® II
    (MEASLES, MUMPS, and
    RUBELLA VIRUS VACCINE LIVE)
    DESCRIPTION
    M-M-R*
    II (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Virus Vaccine Live) is a live virus vaccine for vaccination
    against measles (rubeola), mumps, and rubella (German measles).
    M-M-R II is a sterile lyophilized preparation of (1) ATTENUVAX*
    (Measles Virus Vaccine Live), a more
    attenuated line of measles virus, derived from Enders’ attenuated Edmonston strain and propagated in
    chick embryo cell culture; (2) MUMPSVAX*
    (Mumps Virus Vaccine Live), the Jeryl Lynn
    **
    (B level) strain
    of mumps virus propagated in chick embryo cell culture; and (3) MERUVAX*
    II (Rubella Virus Vaccine
    Live), the Wistar RA 27/3 strain of live attenuated rubella virus propagated in WI-38 human diploid lung
    fibroblasts.1,2
    The growth medium for measles and mumps is Medium 199 (a buffered salt solution containing
    vitamins and amino acids and supplemented with fetal bovine serum) containing SPGA (sucrose,
    phosphate, glutamate, and recombinant human albumin) as stabilizer and neomycin.
    The growth medium for rubella is Minimum Essential Medium (MEM) [a buffered salt solution
    containing vitamins and amino acids and supplemented with fetal bovine serum] containing recombinant
    human albumin and neomycin. Sorbitol and hydrolyzed gelatin stabilizer are added to the individual virus
    harvests.
    The cells, virus pools, and fetal bovine serum are all screened for the absence of adventitious agents.
    The reconstituted vaccine is for subcutaneous administration. Each 0.5 mL dose contains not less
    than 1,000 TCID50
    (tissue culture infectious doses) of measles virus; 12,500 TCID50
    of mumps virus; and
    1,000 TCID50
    of rubella virus. Each dose of the vaccine is calculated to contain sorbitol (14.5 mg), sodium
    phosphate, sucrose (1.9 mg), sodium chloride, hydrolyzed gelatin (14.5 mg), recombinant human albumin
    (≤0.3 mg), fetal bovine serum (<1 ppm), other buffer and media ingredients and approximately 25 mcg of
    neomycin. The product contains no preservative.
    Before reconstitution, the lyophilized vaccine is a light yellow compact crystalline plug. M-M-R II, when
    reconstituted as directed, is clear yellow.

    Like

  26. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Remember when doctors used to promote Camel cigarettes? There is tons of bad science out there, just start looking.

    Except science knew tobacco was bad in the 19th century, and the evidence was very strong in the 1950s. What you claim were “doctors” were actually actors paid by tobacco companies to lie in advertisers, or worse real doctors that were bribed by those companies. Do not mistake ads for science.

    See: The Price Paid: Manipulation of Otolaryngologists by the Tobacco Industry to Obfuscate the Emerging Truth That Smoking Causes Cancer.

    Like

  27. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    If parents who vaccinate are so firm in their belief that vaccines work, why are you worried about those who do not? Your vaccinated children are not at risk, right?

    There are two ways to avoid disease, Kelly. First is to avoid exposure and the second is to have prior immunity. Vaccines provide immunity but they are not a guarantee. No vaccine is 100% effective. Thus in addition to vaccination, I would also like to avoid exposure.

    The pro-disease crowd would like to see people get sick from these diseases. Sick people are a reservoir and thus source of exposure for the disease.

    I also worry about the kids that suffer because their parents are uninformed about vaccines. It is hardly fair that the children pay the price because of their parents ignorance.

    Our bodies can be nurtured to be healthy and strong through natural methods. We don’t need chemicals. Chemical drugs only cover symptoms. They do not cure or heal. Chemical drugs are very damaging to our bodies in any form.

    Oh, do you mean the natural methods that lead people to die of VPD before there were vaccines? Yup, those were effective. Furthermore, natural substances are also chemicals.

    Like

  28. Jessica Montero
    May 10, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Kelly while I am RESPECTFUL of your decision (unlike so many here that think ONLY their own way is right) I would have to disagree with it.

    The rates of learning/developmental delays/disabilities, cancers, diabetes, autism, food allergies, asthma, auto-immune disorders (just to name a few) are on the rise at an ALARMING rate. I am an educator that sees this everyday. I would not go as far as to solely blame vaccines for this……I also blame toxins in our environment, food, air etc. Vaccines do play a big role in that.

    The toxins in vaccines are dangerous and are NOT meant to be in the human body. It amazes me that you think that the current CDC Vaccine Schedule is a “safe” amount of toxins for your child. It is crazy to me that people would allow their child to receive 4-6 vaccines at a time and think that the child’s tiny body could “safely” handle all of those chemicals.

    Your comment about the big drug companies having your children’s best interests at heart makes me sad. This is WHY they can get away with what they do. People blindly follow anything that the government tells them to do. I am not anti-vaccine nor am I PRO-DISEASE at all. I currently selectively vaccinate my son (he is 3 and received 2 rounds of each HIB, DTAP and PREVNAR…..each administered singlely and at least 3-6 months apart from each other). I’m not sure if he will ever get anymore. I weigh the risks and the benefits for each injection. I want people to start to stand together and DEMAND safe vaccines because the ones we have now DO NOT CUT IT. My husband and I have agonized over these decisions because OUR SON IS OUR WORLD. I feel like we have made the best decision for our family……but we have made INFORMED choices.

    Like

  29. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Scientists want to be well known, they want to win prizes and accolades, as well as research grants.

    You think killing a bunch of kids because you faked research results would get them prizes and accolades? Look at Wakefield. The man’s career is in the toilet.

    Have you ever spoken to a scientist?

    Yes, on a daily basis. How about you?

    Remember when doctors used to promote Camel cigarettes?

    Except doctors didn’t. You are confusing marketing ads with the medical literature.

    So do you have any evidence that vaccines are not in the best interests of children or do you just have your ignorant opinion?

    Like

  30. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    That’s nice vetridani, but James post claimed to list the ingredients of the flu vaccine.

    Would you like an explanation of the ingredients in the MMR?

    Like

  31. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    The rates of learning/developmental delays/disabilities, cancers, diabetes, autism, food allergies, asthma, auto-immune disorders (just to name a few) are on the rise at an ALARMING rate. I am an educator that sees this everyday. I would not go as far as to solely blame vaccines for this……I also blame toxins in our environment, food, air etc. Vaccines do play a big role in that.

    Citation needed, especially when the current literature says vaccines do not play a big role in that.

    The toxins in vaccines are dangerous and are NOT meant to be in the human body. It amazes me that you think that the current CDC Vaccine Schedule is a “safe” amount of toxins for your child. It is crazy to me that people would allow their child to receive 4-6 vaccines at a time and think that the child’s tiny body could “safely” handle all of those chemicals.

    It amazes you because you are mistaken about toxins being in vaccines and you don’t understand what chemicals are. It amazes me that you don’t even understand basic principles and yet think you know what you are informed. I don’t feel this kind of arrogance needs to be respected, especially when your arrogance puts others at risk.

    Like

  32. James Longfellow
    May 10, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    Thimerosal is still contained in many vaccines. So get your facts straight. It will continue to be used until the Federal Death Agency bans it, which they will never do because that would bite the pharmaceutical industry hand that feeds the corrupt bureaucratic whores who run it. The squalene being used in vaccines is from deep sea sharks. Not from human livers. So again, get your facts straight. And there is a big difference between eating something that will be processed by the entire digestive system and injecting it into the bloodstream, where it has a direct path to the brain or any other organ in the body. If you cannot understand that maybe you should get an education. It is curious how you singled out three of the ingredients and chose to ignore the other 34 ingredients. Perhaps you are the one who needs to learn a bit about the misinformation you blindly accept from the people who profit from vaccines, Do your own research and stop parroting what you are told by the Center for Drug Companies and the Fraud & Deception Agency, most of whose employees, when they leave the FDA and CDC end up employed by very industry they are supposed to be policing. But I’m fairly certain that you will be unable to see the blatant conflict of interest with the obvious brainwashing you’ve had. One of the side effects of many of the ingredients on this list is fertility issues, which may not necessarily be a bad thing. So just go back to sleep, get your flu shot, drink your fluoride, take your prescription medication and be still. Forget everything you just read. I think vaccines are a good thing for someone like you!

    Like

  33. Jessica Montero
    May 10, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Kelly :

    The rates of learning/developmental delays/disabilities, cancers, diabetes, autism, food allergies, asthma, auto-immune disorders (just to name a few) are on the rise at an ALARMING rate. I am an educator that sees this everyday. I would not go as far as to solely blame vaccines for this……I also blame toxins in our environment, food, air etc. Vaccines do play a big role in that.

    Citation needed, especially when the current literature says vaccines do not play a big role in that.

    The toxins in vaccines are dangerous and are NOT meant to be in the human body. It amazes me that you think that the current CDC Vaccine Schedule is a “safe” amount of toxins for your child. It is crazy to me that people would allow their child to receive 4-6 vaccines at a time and think that the child’s tiny body could “safely” handle all of those chemicals.

    It amazes you because you are mistaken about toxins being in vaccines and you don’t understand what chemicals are. It amazes me that you don’t even understand basic principles and yet think you know what you are informed. I don’t feel this kind of arrogance needs to be respected, especially when your arrogance puts others at risk.

    I absolutely do “understand the basic principles” and am not arrogant in any way. I am expressing my beliefs. If your vaccines are as effective as you say they are…..then I am not putting anyone at risk. There really is no point of arguing with someone that KNOWS EVERYTHING…..keep injecting your child with toxic chemicals without worrying about the detriment it is causing in the body. That is your choice. I know that my son is healthy, never even been sick in his 3 years of life, no medical issues what so ever……and we will continue to eat organic, not vaccinate and try to rid our lives of as many toxins as possible. I am very happy with my INFORMED choice…..

    Like

  34. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    James, you have been shown to be in error, so perhaps you should follow your own advice and get an education to get your facts straight.

    Here is the list of vaccines that contain thimerosal and from the list,you can see that many are thimerosal free. http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

    Squalene is squalene. The chemical formula doesn’t change with the source of the chemical.

    The flu vaccine does not contain chick embryos and the vaccine is not injected into the bloodstream. You might also want to look up the blood brain barrier which prevents chemicals in the blood from entering the brain. Nothing has a direct path to the brain.

    So what website did you blindly copy this list from James, since only a little bit of thought is needed to completely discredit it?

    Like

  35. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    I absolutely do “understand the basic principles” and am not arrogant in any way.

    It is pretty arrogant to insist that you do understand basic principles in a post where you claim there are toxins in vaccines, that you are not putting others at risk by not vaccinating and think that organic food will protect you from VPD. All of that is misinformation and you don’t even know enough to realize it.

    I hope your son remains healthy and he doesn’t have to pay the price for his mommy’s arrogant misinformed choice, Jessica.

    Like

  36. amelia
    May 10, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    When speaking of a rise in vaccine preventable disease and a rise in non vaccinated children, it is only fair to add that the higher percentage of those contracting the disease have either been partially vaccinated or fully vaccinated in accordance to the cdcs recommendation. Unvaccinated, as a whole, are sick less often and spend less time frequenting Dr offices and hospitals. Add a year of breastfeeding or more to not vaccinating and your immune system is golden.

    Like

  37. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Here is the flu vx ingredient list. I do apologize Kelly the vaccine info gestapo…

    DESCRIPTION
    FLUVIRIN
    ®
    is a trivalent, sub-unit (purified surface antigen) influenza virus
    vaccine prepared from virus propagated in the allantoic cavity of embryonated hens’ eggs
    inoculated with a specific type of influenza virus suspension containing neomycin and
    polymyxin. Each of the influenza virus strains is harvested and clarified separately by
    centrifugation and filtration prior to inactivation with betapropiolactone. The inactivated
    virus is concentrated and purified by zonal centrifugation. The surface antigens,
    hemagglutinin and neuraminidase, are obtained from the influenza virus particle by
    further centrifugation in the presence of nonylphenol ethoxylate, a process which
    removes most of the internal proteins. The nonylphenol ethoxylate is removed from the
    surface antigen preparation.
    FLUVIRIN
    ®
    is a homogenized, sterile, slightly opalescent suspension in a
    phosphate buffered saline. FLUVIRIN
    ®
    has been standardized according to USPHS
    requirements for the 2010-2011 influenza season and is formulated to contain 45 mcg
    Vial and Syringe leaflet text Page 12 of 20 Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited BLA 1750
    19 July 2010
    hemagglutinin (HA) per 0.5-mL dose in the recommended ratio of 15 mcg HA of each of
    the following 3 viruses:
    A/California/7/2009, NYMC X-181 (H1N1); A/Victoria/210/2009, NYMC X-187
    (H3N2) (an A/Perth/16/2009-like virus); and B/Brisbane/60/2008.
    The 0.5-mL prefilled syringe presentation is formulated without preservative.
    However, thimerosal, a mercury derivative used during manufacturing, is removed by
    subsequent purification steps to a trace amount (≤ 1 mcg mercury per 0.5-mL dose).
    The 5-mL multidose vial formulation contains thimerosal, a mercury derivative,
    added as a preservative. Each 0.5-mL dose from the multidose vial contains 25 mcg
    mercury.
    Each dose from the multidose vial or from the prefilled syringe may also contain
    residual amounts of egg proteins (≤ 1 mcg ovalbumin), polymyxin (≤ 3.75 mcg),
    neomycin (≤ 2.5 mcg), betapropiolactone (not more than 0.5 mcg) and nonylphenol
    ethoxylate (not more than 0.015% w/v).
    The tip caps of the FLUVIRIN
    ®
    prefilled syringes may contain natural rubber
    latex. The multidose vial stopper and the syringe stopper/plunger do not contain latex.

    Like

  38. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    The toxins in vaccines are dangerous and are NOT meant to be in the human body. It amazes me that you think that the current CDC Vaccine Schedule is a “safe” amount of toxins for your child. It is crazy to me that people would allow their child to receive 4-6 vaccines at a time and think that the child’s tiny body could “safely” handle all of those chemicals.

    Sounds like the government is wondering whether or not the current schedule is safe:

    Federal Government Poised to Expand Vaccine Injury Table
    During its March 8, 2011 meeting, the federal Advisory Commission on Childhood Vaccines (ACCV) unanimously passed recommendations made by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) Report Task Force on Updating the Vaccine Injury Table (VIT). The VIT has not been substantially updated since 1997, despite the Centers for Disease Control’s addition of nine more vaccines to the recommended childhood vaccination schedule.

    The ACCV’s recommendations were based on the landmark report by the Institute of Medicine – Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality – published in August 2011. To learn more about these updates and their impact to vaccine injury compensation claims

    Like

  39. kathy
    May 10, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Wow, that was a great blog post and what a sad story! As for all the antivax posters on this page, I encourage anyone reading here to talk to their medical doctor about all of this. Print out the list of ingredients and the vaccine insert quoted above. Take it to your medical doctor, who will explain to you why none of the ingredients in vaccines are toxic and he or she can tell you exactly what they do and why they are in there. Remember, vaccines are medicine. Preventative medicine. Your doctor can also give you the vaccine information sheet for each vaccine and talk to you about risks and benefits. Remember that there are clear risks to vaxing and to not vaxing. However, it is FAR more risky not to vax. That is statistically proven by peer-reviewed, published literature. Don’t trust the advice of anyone online. Talk to your medical doctor about it. He or she should be respectful of your concerns and can explain to you why there are far more benefits to vaxing than not. Don’t let the internet scare you.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. Karen
    May 10, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    Amelia, your comment shows some confusion about how vaccines work. Because the vaccinated vastly outnumber the unvaccinated, one would actually expect a greater number of vaccinated to fall ill during an outbreak even though a smaller percentage of the vaccinated population would be ill compared the a larger percentage of the unvaccinated population. Take this explanation, for example:

    “MISCONCEPTION #2. The majority of people who get disease have been vaccinated.

    This is another argument frequently found in anti-vaccine literature – the implication being that this proves vaccines are not effective. In fact it is true that in an outbreak those who have been vaccinated often outnumber those who have not – even with vaccines such as measles, which we know to be about 98% effective when used as recommended.

    This is explained by two factors. No vaccine is 100% effective. Most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients. For reasons related to the individual, some will not develop immunity. The second fact is that in a country such as the United States the people who have been vaccinated vastly outnumber those who have not. Here’s a hypothetical example of how these two factors work together.

    In a high school of 1,000 students, none has ever had measles. All but 5 of the students have had two doses of measles vaccine, and so are fully immunized. The entire student body is exposed to measles, and every susceptible student becomes infected. The 5 unvaccinated students will be infected, of course. But of the 995 who have been vaccinated, we would expect several not to respond to the vaccine. The efficacy rate for two doses of measles vaccine can be higher than 99%. In this class, 7 students do not respond, and they, too, become infected. Therefore 7 of 12, or about 58%, of the cases occur in students who have been fully vaccinated.

    As you can see, this doesn’t prove the vaccine didn’t work – only that most of the children in the class had been vaccinated, so those who were vaccinated and did not respond outnumbered those who had not been vaccinated. Looking at it another way, 100% of the children who had not been vaccinated got measles, compared with less than 1% of those who had been vaccinated. Measles vaccine protected most of the class; if nobody in the class had been vaccinated, there would probably have been 1,000 cases of measles.” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#intro

    Like

  41. Lara Lohne
    May 10, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    Kelly,

    There are many people who believe in a divine creator, and many more of those people believe that he inspired scientists, doctors, engineers, etc, to invent things to make our lives better, easier, healthier. Why is it not possible that this divine creator inspired the use of inoculation and vaccines?

    And on another note, what foreign animal DNA is used in vaccines? Why is the small amount of formaldehyde used in vaccines more toxic then the greater amount produced by your own liver on a daily basis? I believe that mercury (AKA: Thimerosal) has been removed from routine childhood vaccines, therefore this is an old and worn out argument that no longer applies.

    The scientists you state that are stepping forward are the ones who are interested in how they can profit from this hysteria. Parents, are not scientists, or doctors in many of these cases you hint at, therefore they cannot be expected to know completely and understand what they are talking about. They see one event, a few days later another event occurs and automatically the two events are related when they may not be related at all. This goes back to the old stand by, correlation does not equal causation.

    I don’t take anyone’s word for anything because it is too easy to be swayed and confused by emotion, which is about the only thing the anti-vaccine people have going for them. The ‘science’ is not real and anyone who has the ability to think beyond the tearful stories can see that there is no fact to these stories. It is speculation and in some cases outright lies.

    You may think I’m a bit harsh on these parents who claim vaccines damaged their children. That is because these same parents called me a liar, threatened me, told me my son didn’t count and his autism isn’t real when I told them he didn’t get vaccines and I don’t believe that vaccines cause autism. There is fact, that fact is taken into the mind, combined with emotions, personal biases, opinions, experiences as they are perceived by the individual and sometime completely opposite of what that fact started out as comes out the other side as truth for this person. No amount of personal perspective has actually altered the original fact though. And that fact is what we are trying to share with people who may otherwise not know where to look. The fact is, vaccines save lives, they prevent disease that has killed and maimed millions before. They save us all money because if these diseases were allowed to run rampant, we would all fit the bill for the hospitalization of the victims and attempted containment of these diseases. Again, having suffered through some of these diseases in my childhood, I would much rather get a shot and not have to suffer, so I make sure I get my boosters when it’s time. All my children are now vaccinated as fully as the schedule recommends. I am not going to take the chance that some random disease could claim my child’s life when I can prevent that with a simple injection. They aren’t as toxic as you think they are, or have been led to believe they are. Personally, I believe the wild viruses they protect against are a LOT more toxic then the vaccines, see, vaccines, in the vast majority of cases, don’t make you sick. You Kelly, are a perfect example of an anti-vaccine zealot. You spout this stuff as if it’s religion. Perhaps it has become thus for you. If that is the case, well, not everyone is going to believe your religion is correct, and last time I checked, our nation was still based on religious freedom.

    Like

  42. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Unvaccinated, as a whole, are sick less often and spend less time frequenting Dr offices and hospitals

    Citation needed. Because this paper has the opposite conclusion.

    Add a year of breastfeeding or more to not vaccinating and your immune system is golden.

    Citation needed. Especially since my daughter got chicken pox when she was six months old even though the only food she got was my breast milk.

    Like

  43. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    News flash: people who use real science update their methods and procedures when there is data. Sometimes the updates to the the Vaccine Injury Table remove things.

    In short: it is not a bad thing.

    Unlike those who still are going on about thimerosal when every pediatric vaccine has a thimerosal free version (including about half of the influenza vaccines).

    Like

  44. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    As opposed to the vaxed kids with autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, learning disorders, asthma, allergies, bowel disease, diabetes, PANDAS, MS, paralysis, etc. Ummmm, Lawrence, I know you realize that.

    Like

  45. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    So you have listed the ingredients to some vaccines. Now go and tell how the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. Show us that the MMR is more dangerous than measles. Show us that Fluvirin is more dangerous than its intended flu strains (oh, and by the way, it is just one of eight influenza vaccines).

    Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed articles to support your statements.

    Plus, when you cut and paste could you please edit out the random line breaks? It makes it easier to read if you take the time to do some formatting.

    Liked by 1 person

  46. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Citation needed.

    Ms. Parker tends to make claims that are not true, even after being told they are false. She is not to be believed.

    Like

  47. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    Kelly (the pro-vaccine-injury one): Of course everyone thinks that disease prevention is the best thing, there just seems to be scientific disagreement on how this is done, and on the real factors that made these diseases almost disappear. Engineers and chemists seem to have saved more lives than doctors with their vaccines, since most of the mortality drop happened well before any vaccine’s introduction, when we were building better sanitary and water treatment infrastructures. Medicine stole the victory over these diseases like a cheating runner stealing marathon victory running only the last mile.

    Where are your peer reviewed studies that show that the combined and cumulating quantities of these potentially neurotoxic ingredients in ALL vaccines given to infants now, are in non toxic concentration? The ones that show if and how these interact? I couldn’t find any… I just found some studies on one ingredient or one vaccine, or vaccine A against vaccine B. And it seems that those “caring” vaccine developpers are satisfied that their vaccines are safe by just looking at the injection site, and recording subjects’ reported symptoms for a few weeks and not seeing them drop in front of their eyes. It’s a good thing most vaccine recipients can’t speak or express detailed symptoms, and that brain damage doesn’t show up in a pee sample or the injection site…

    For long term follow up they have the great VAERS, which the CDC say is completely scientifically useless in making any causal links between effects reported and vaccines given, and doctors who can’t believe vaccines can be harmful and most do not report adverse reactions to VAERS and there you have the perfect loop of magical thinking, and the “proof” that adverse reactions are “extremely” rare.

    Like

  48. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    If my daughter got measles in 2012, I would be relieved that she had the opportunity to achieve permanent immunity before she was grown, when it can be more dangerous. I would keep her in bed throughout, close the curtains to darken the room to protect her eyes, offer her hot herbal tea and cool juice for her to drink what felt best to her, but urge her to sip something frequently to stay well-hydrated, I’d probably give her vitamin A, not strictly necessary in most cases, but it dramatically reduces the chance of complications, and absolutely not give her Tylenol or Ibuprofen, but would allow the fever to do its necessary work. When the calves of her legs felt warm, probably after several days of fever, I would put lemon wraps around them to help disperse the heat, but not until that time, the calves feel cold until the body is ready to disperse the heat. I would keep her in bed for at least the two weeks of the illness, and probably keep her home from school for another two weeks to allow enough recuperation time. The MMR is much more dangerous than getting the natural disease. And then she’d have immunity for life and the ability to protect her babies with her breast milk. I had measles when I was six:, at that time something like 95% of children did, it’s really not the big deal they’re making it now.

    Like

  49. Th1Th2
    May 10, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Every vaccinator is an infection promoter. This is undeniable truth.

    Like

  50. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Great post, I thought at first this was written by the Kelly employed by this website, and was trying to figure out the sarcasm which I knew must be behind your words. Then I realized that you’re a different Kelly. Thank you for urging parents to do their research before allowing their child to get vaccinated. You must be new here, my child got encephalitis from the hep-B vaccine at birth and was later diagnosed with autism. I totally agree with you in everything you said.

    Like

  51. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    I am sure you can make your way through the page breaks…see I’m not a paid shill as you and Kelly are…Pharma is not schooling me on how to “win” a vaccine argument or discredit my opponents. I know this site is funded by Big Pharma: Drug company front groups actively recruiting parents to push vaccines. [Shot of Prevention is part of Every Child by Two, which receives huge grants from drug companies to promote and defend vaccines–education is what they call it.] – via Inside vaccines.

    The jig is up…your job security is in danger…no wonder you and Kelly are so tenacious! 🙂

    My favorite quote from my Uncle who was a Hematologist… “Bird flu, bird sh*t, it’s ALL bullsh*t!”

    You both should learn some manners…it’s easy to be brave when you are not face to face with someone.

    Like

  52. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    So what must you read and understand before entering the official VAERS database at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ?

    What is the validity of self selected survey data?

    Like

  53. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    So I suppose there has not been a need to update the science since 1997???

    Like

  54. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    To the nice Kelly:
    I just read the comments below your post, and saw that the usual crowd has insulted you the way they always do. I hope you won’t take it personally. You’re absolutely right, increasing numbers of medical professionals as well as parents are coming forward with their personal experiences of vaccine damage, and are advocating a massive change in the way we think about disease and vaccines. I just wrote to my congressman asking him to attend a Safe Minds hearing to express management concerns with the VICP. Change will happen, there are just too many of us who have been vaccine-damaged to let us be swept under the carpet any longer.

    Like

  55. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    So exactly what is my job?

    Or are you deciding to not answer my questions with real data, so you need to resort to the old and tired Pharma Shill Gambit? It is a bit ironic when you mention “manners” when you are the one who being accusatory and not responding with actual evidence.

    Like

  56. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    This is the comparison of measles vs. the vaccine so you can see how cia lies when she states “The MMR is much more dangerous than getting the natural disease.”: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/cedv-cemv-tab-eng.php

    Measles
    Complications such as bronchopneumonia and otitis media occur in about 10%. Encephalitis occurs in 1/1,000 cases (fatal in 15% and neurologic sequelae in 25%). Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis is a rare but fatal complication. Case fatality < 0.05%. With 2-dose schedule, indigenous measles has been eliminated in Canada.

    MMR vaccine
    Malaise and fever, with or without a non-infectious rash in about 5%; up to 1% of recipients may develop parotitis, about 5% have swollen glands, stiff neck or joint pains. Transient arthralgias or arthritis may occur and are more common in postpubertal females.

    About 1/30,000 develop transient thrombocytopenia, 1/1 million develop encephalitis.

    Like

  57. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Wow, another great post! Thank you, Jessica. It’s such a relief to see someone else here who understands both the tragedy of loss of children from a disease and the tragedy of having your children be damaged by the vaccines meant to prevent the diseases. This is absolutely an issue which must be left in the hands of the parents to make a decision on. The stakes are too high to let a doctor just read you his vaccine company information to you before shooting your child up with a vaccine that could kill or disable him as well as give him (in some cases, for some length of time) immunity.

    Like

  58. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    As I’ve told you many times before cia. I’m not employed by this website or any pharmaceutical company.

    Cia is also lying about her child getting encephalitis from the HepB vaccine. She admitted that no doctor has diagnosed her daughter as ever having encephalitis.

    Like

  59. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    You haven’t been vaccine damaged, cia.

    Appeal to popularity is still a logical fallacy. Your statements nor the other Kelly’s are correct just because other people are just as uninformed as you two.

    Like

  60. Karen
    May 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    I can deny it since you have given no evidence to back up that claim.

    Like

  61. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    What’s your point Chris? You seem to be providing support for mine that the long term follow up of vaccine adverse effects is scientifically deficient with non valid “self selected survey” data…!?!

    Like

  62. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Dan, I’m not pro-vaccine injury. Nice strawman there.

    There is no scientific disagreement on how to prevent diseases. Sanitation does not protect against respiratory diseases like measles. Scientists agree that vaccination is the way to go to prevent measles.

    The peer review studies are published on PubMed, Dan. You can also look in the package inserts because each new vaccine has to be tested with existing vaccines before being licensed. Just because you are ignorant about these studies, Dan, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Like

  63. Th1Th2
    May 10, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Try the varicella vaccine. The vaccine, in and of itself, causes primary varicella infection which would later result to shingles later in life. Shot of prevention? A big NO. Infection promoter? YES!

    Like

  64. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    I am pretty sure I would rather go without the polio vaccine, and risk wild polio (which nearly was eradicated before any vaccine) than risk being paralyzed by the man-made one in the vaccination…I put a link in an earlier post, read it. I also have graphs showing most of these diseases were nearly eradicated before vaccines for them were introduced, that can be googled by you if you are interested. The are PLENTY of peer reviewed studies out there that site real safety issues with vaccines. I wanted some answers so I went digging, you don’t question their safety so you only care about studies that support your view.

    True, I don’t really know what you do as a job, but I DO know what you are doing here… tenaciously fighting those that question pharmaceutical companies motives and information that vaccines are safe. So tell me Chris… What do you do? and Why do you care so much?

    Like

  65. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Chris,
    James said “in most vaccines,” and his list is correct. The live vaccines don’t have preservatives or adjuvants, or they would turn into killed vaccines. We all know that. The MMR has cow fetus serum, chick embryo proteins, DNA and protein fragments from human fetal cells, and glutamate. Your digestive system is designed to deal with and break down proteins from many sources. It’s completely different to inject these substances into your body. The circulatory system was designed to be a closed system, the digestive system an open one. When the immune system perceives foreign proteins (or all the substances James mentioned that are in other vaccines) suddenly appearing in the blood, having bypassed the intricate filtering systems of the digestive and respiratory systems that keep dangerous substances out, the immune system often mounts an auto-immune response, with severe and often deadly consequences. Vaccines skew the normal development of an infant toward an Ig-1 immune response to a predominantly auto-immune Ig-2 response. The MMR had its mumps component quadrupled in amount in 1990. The measles strain virus has been found in the intestines of many of the children who have reacted to the MMR with autism. Many of us think this is something to worry about.
    What a surprise to see so many earnest, responsible posters today! Did you guys notice that they did not sneer or mock at all? You would probably get further if you said things like: You make a very interesting point. I understand why you would believe that if your child seized up as soon as he got that vaccine. It alarms me as well that the autism rate has gone up as much as it has in the past twenty years. Yes, one can understand how it looks bad that the autism rate has climbed in absolute parallel with the increase in vaccines. But, I think you might consider the following information… Just a suggestion.

    Like

  66. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    I’m also not paid to counter your misinformation vetridani. I do it as a public service to protect innocent children.

    You are the one that is spreading misinformation that endangers others, vetridani. Good manners would be not to open your mouth unless you know what you are talking about. Most people also think name-calling is not polite.

    Like

  67. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Wow that is the best “proof” you have that vaccinated children are in better health than non vaccinated, a phone survey of less that 20 000 people, in all of one century of mass administration of hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines?

    Like

  68. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Chris,
    I saw that you asked which vaccines go into the blood. Most of them do, except for vaccines like Flumist or the rotavirus vaccine, or the old oral polio vaccine. They are injected into the muscle, and the millions of capillaries in the muscle quickly transport it into the blood. You know that. And then the immune system reacts to it. I know you guys like to dispute the phrase “injected directly into the bloodstream,” so I’ll give you that, but you know that it’s the same difference, the vaccine would not work if it did not got very quickly from the muscle or blood in the capillaries to the bloodstream at large.

    Like

  69. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Real science takes time because there is lots of data. You can read the details here of an earlier set of changes. I have just glanced at it but here are a couple of things I noticed:
    “The 2011 IOM committee concluded evidence inadequate to accept or reject a causal association between acellular pertussis (aP)-containing vaccines and encephalopathy or encephalitis.”
    and: “Committee concluded that the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between MMR vaccine and encephalopathy or encephalitis.”

    Most of the proposed changes are definitions.

    Then here are the proposed from the IOM report. Here are what they favor adding:
    1.HPV and anaphylaxis
    2.MMR and transient arthralgia in female adults
    3.MMR and transient arthralgia in children
    4.Certain trivalent inactivated influenza vaccines used in Canada and oculorespiratory syndrome

    And here are what they are rejection for the Vaccine Injury Table:
    1.MMR vaccine and type 1 diabetes
    2.DTaP vaccine and type 1 diabetes
    3.MMR vaccine and autism
    4.Trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV) and asthma/reactive airway disease episodes
    5.TIV and Bell’s palsy

    Then here are the changes:
    Varicella:
    Disseminated varicella infection (widespread chickenpox rash shortly after vaccination), disseminated varicella infection with subsequent infection resulting in pneumonia, meningitis, or hepatitis in individuals with demonstrated immunodeficiencies, vaccine strain viral reactivation (appearance of chickenpox rash months to years after vaccination), and vaccine strain viral reactivation with subsequent infection resulting in meningitis or encephalitis (inflammations of the brain)

    MMR
    Measles inclusion body encephalitis

    Plus anaphylaxis for varicella, influenza, meningococcal and HPV vaccines. And for all injections they are adding deltoid bursitis (a very sore arm) and fainting.

    So yeah, you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Like

  70. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    I counter your misinformation, vetridani because parents deserve to make an informed choice about vaccination. If there are PLENTY of studies, why can’t you cite any of them?

    This is a comparison of the polio vaccine to polio. The vaccine is inactivated and there is no risk for the IPV to cause polio. Once again, we have a misinformed anti-vaxer.

    Poliomyelitis
    Greater than 90% of infections are inapparent or nonspecific. Flaccid paralysis occurs in less than 1% of infections; paralysis is characteristically asymmetric with fever present at onset. Among those paralyzed, about 5%-10% die. Polio has been eliminated from Canada.

    DTaP/IPV/Hib vaccine
    serious adverse events following immunization are rare. The most common adverse reactions are redness, swelling and pain at the injection site. Systemic reactions such as fever and irritability are less common. Redness and swelling greater than 3.5 cm diameter, with minimal pain, are more common in children receiving the fifth consecutive dose of vaccine at 4 to 6 years of age, and have been reported in up to 16% of children.

    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/cedv-cemv-tab-eng.php

    Like

  71. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    “Most people also think name-calling is not polite.” Ignorant, arrogant, quacks, liars… all things you have said to people on this thread Kelly.

    I know what I speak of Kelly, so I will keep opening my mouth…The truth is coming out, slowly but surely. Sit back and watch…

    Like

  72. May 10, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    cia parker :
    As opposed to the vaxed kids with autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, learning disorders, asthma, allergies, bowel disease, diabetes, PANDAS, MS, paralysis, etc. Ummmm, Lawrence, I know you realize that.

    Cia Parker, it has been explained to you again and again and again that vaccinated and unvaccinated children are equally likely to have autism, seizure disorders or your other string of conditions that aren’t related to vaccination.. ADHD had nothing todo with vaccines; it’s one of the most heritable of the neurodivergences. It turns out that dyslexia, too, is highly heritable.

    But you cling, without a shred of science-based evidence, to your fearmongering.

    Like

  73. Shelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    I don’t understand why this lady made her decision so quickly thanks to “symptoms and long lasting effects” from diseases, when there is a longer list of symptoms and effects FROM vaccines? She basically states that she made the decision to “protect” yet doesn’t realize there are cancer causing chemicals withing the vaccines that she allows to be injected into the bloodstream of her children that she can be protecting them from. While yes, it is sad to hear of those who died in the 1900’s…. many things have changed since then in the sense that we now know about healthier, cleaner practices and how the body has a natural ability to protect itself when it is nourished in the correct way. The 1900’s was a time when undernourishment and unsafe cleaning practices were rampant. It isn’t as black and white as she thinks and when you are speaking about the well being of a child, they deserve parents to take the time to research a little more rather than just accept “doctors orders”. Human beings are not sick from lack of medicine and chemicals, they get sick from undernourishment of what helps the body to perform optimally.

    Like

  74. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    No Dan. The paper shows the only difference in health between vaccinated and unvaccinated is that unvaccinated children get VPD more often.

    The method was also not a phone survey. Did you even read the paper?

    Considering this is the only evidence on the table, something certainly trumps nothing.

    Like

  75. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    Not names, but observations, vetridani, all supported by evidence. People that lack knowledge are ignorant. People that think they know more than what they do are arrogant. People that practice pseudomedicine are quacks. People that knowingly say untrue things are liars.

    You, on the other hand, said I was a pharma shill for no reason whatsoever.

    So far you have only showed your ignorance. So you are saving your real knowledge for later and you just tried to impressed us with your lack of knowledge to warm us up to you?

    Like

  76. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Kelly, no more than I am pro-disease, works both ways… package inserts and peer reviewed studies is where get info, kelly, but not just the ones financed by the vaccine makers.

    This one talks of what is called the measles paradox: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8053748

    And their conclusion is :

    «The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons. Because of the failure rate of the vaccine and the unique transmissibility of the measles virus, the currently available measles vaccine, used in a single-dose strategy, is unlikely to completely eliminate measles. The long-term success of a two-dose strategy to eliminate measles remains to be determined.»

    You should read more of independent research.

    Like

  77. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    That was a randomly selected survey with actual interviews. Very much unlike the badly done Generation Rescue phone survey with leading questions and the internet survey by a homeopath. But if you wish here are some more citations, I expect you to post citations of similar quality:

    Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
    Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

    JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
    Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.
    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.

    Like

  78. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    There are not cancer-causing chemicals in the vaccines, Shelly.

    Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream.

    I agree children deserve parents to take the time to research a little more rather than just accept the misinformation fed to them my anti-vaxers. Here is a link to a place you can start Shelly: http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

    Like

  79. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Dr Sherri Tenpenny is ignorant?? REALLY??? Let me go tell her you said that Kelly, Doctor of…hmmm…what medicine do you specialize in again?

    Like

  80. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    You have got to be kidding us with this WHO crap!

    Like

  81. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Kelly,
    This post was so off-base I don’t even know where to start. The animal tissues are broken down, they are indeed present in most vaccines, and are highly antigenic. You know that everything can be broken down more and more to a very minute level, while still retaining the antigenic properties of the original tissue. The vaccines that use human or animal tissues are: MMR, chickenpox, polio, rotavirus, flu, hep A, DTaP (some brands), Pentacel, tetanus and diphtheria, and Boostrix Tdap. AIDS was transmitted in Africa several decades ago because they reused the same instruments for vaccinations for many people without sterilizing them in between. At least in that case many people got AIDS from the vaccines. Formaldehyde is present in many vaccines, is a carcinogen, can cause kidney and genetic damage. Many of us do not believe authorities when they assure us that a certain level is safe. That’s what they said about mercury in vaccines, and what they’re saying about aluminum now. The FDA says that a twelve pound healthy baby can get 30mcg of aluminum in one day. A newborn who gets the hep-B at birth gets 250 mcg in it. Why do you think it’s safe for a baby who probably weighs less than 12 pounds to get eight times as much aluminum as is considered the safe limit? And then, of course, he gets a LOT more aluminum in all the other infant shots he eventually gets. (If the parents are ill-informed enough to allow it.) Aluminum damages the brain and the kidneys, and impairs neurological development. I posted before a list of studies establishing the many dangers of aluminum in vaccines.
    Why in the world would you accuse James of lying about the dangers of aluminum in vaccines? It’s dangerous, thousands of people realize that it’s dangerous. What makes it a lie if I or he say that we believe or even that we know it’s dangerous? Are you a native English speaker? I’ve often wondered why you call me a liar. Do you understand what the word means?

    Like

  82. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Dan, a 1994 paper, and is no longer relevant now that the second MMR was moved from age 11-12 to age 4-5. Plus in recent outbreaks of measles most were not vaccinated:

    Of the 222, a total of 196 were U.S. residents. Of those U.S. residents who had measles, 166 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status, 141 (85%) were eligible for MMR vaccination, 18 (11%) were too young for vaccination, six (4%) were born before 1957 and presumed immune, and one (1%) had previous laboratory evidence of presumptive immunity to measles.

    Like

  83. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Thanks, James, I’m glad you’ve entered the fray. I agree that these guys should take as many vaccines as their heart desires. I can hardly wait to see if they’ll acknowledge that there’s a big difference between eating something and having it injected into you.

    Like

  84. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Oh, you are not pro-disease, Dan? You just want to leave kids vulnerable so they can get sick from disease. Sorry, dude. That’s pro-disease.

    I would absolutely love it for vaccines not to have any associated risks, but that would be a nirvana fallacy. With every vaccine, there is going to be a risk, however, there is an even bigger risk with the disease. Pro-disease people would love to see everyone get sick with measles, for example and the ones that are maimed or killed, well, just natural selection at work.

    Yes, Dan. I do read the research and unlike you, I actually understand it.

    This paper is from 1994. We has since introduced a two-dose schedule. Guess what? Recent outbreaks have been in unvaccinated people.

    Like

  85. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    I’ve always thought that phrase of yours was funny, about “you have been shown your error, so why do you persist in it”? Just like the Inquisition. Are you God, who is able to pronounce what is an error and what is not?

    Like

  86. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    The very motivations and rationales of the vaccine industry are suspect. Over repeated experiments, squalene, an oil which we produce naturally and is essential to the production of cholesterol, was shown to have horrific consequences when injected into lab animals (14), causing rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases in the majority – in some cases, all – of them. As chronicled in Gary Matsumoto’s book, Vaccine-A, there is ample evidence that the squalene contained in batches of anthrax vaccine administered to Gulf War support troops was – is – a fundamental trigger of Gulf War Illness, which is a constellation of autoimmune diseases including lupus, Lou Gehrig’s disease, rheumatoid arthritis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome and others.(15) The injected squalene triggers production of antisqualene antibodies, which proceed, in a bizarre friendly fire, to attack the good and necessary squalene. Most insidious in this scenario is the typically delayed onset of symptoms of the resultant autoimmunity, which can bide their time for many months before displaying, obfuscating the causal relation to the offending vaccine. While this information is not commonly known to the general public, it is most certainly known within the vaccine industry, yet in 2009 the FDA approved squalene for use in several dozen clinical vaccine trials in the U.S. for the first time, in subjects from healthy 3-year olds to senior citizens.

    Below is the link this excerpt is from and all of the links to the studies are provided at the end. Start debunking it all…ready, set, GO! 🙂

    http://vaxtruth.org/2012/05/re-setting-the-compass/

    Like

  87. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Oh yes…Tenpenny is ignorant. Check out this page for some of her greatest blunders. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Doctor-Tenpenny-Getting-Rich-Off-Stupidity/207092326001249

    Like

  88. Karen
    May 10, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Cite your source, Th1Th2.

    Like

  89. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Here’s another article about a SCIENTIFIC study stating monkeys given vaccines show signs of AUTISM….

    http://www.naturalnews.com/035787_vaccines_autism_monkeys.html

    Like

  90. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Amelia’s point was a correct one. Unvaccinated people have healthier immune systems than vaccinated ones. They can cope better with any disease they contract better than vaccinated ones. They don’t develop autoimmune diseases at anything like the rate of people whose immune systems have been screwed up by vaccination. I let my baby breast feed until she self-weaned, which wasn’t until she was five and a half. She’s never had an ear infection or diarrhea, and has coped very well with the occasional colds and flus she’s gotten, as well as pertussis (which she got at nine months after having gotten the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months) and chickenpox.

    Like

  91. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    The very motivations and rationales of the vaccine industry are suspect.

    When you can’t counter the science call your opponent pharma shill and evoke the conspiracy theory.

    First paragraph of your link: Uses the “vaccines didn’t save us” gambit.
    Second paragraph: conspiracy theory – the authorities are hiding all the dead bodies from vaccines, but don’t worry, the author knows the TROOF! and will blow the lid off this massive secret.
    Third paragraph: Logical fallacy – thinks correlation equals causation and uses court decisions as evidence.

    OMG, vetridani…I’m already at the third paragraph and the blog doesn’t contain a single sentence of correct information so far. If this is how you do “research”, no wonder you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Like

  92. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Natural News? Really? Do you know how to think for yourself, or do you just parrot back what the vitamin salesman told you to sell his products?

    Like

  93. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Citation needed cia.

    Just because you keep repeating the same lies over and over, doesn’t make it any more true.

    Like

  94. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Rise in paralysis cases after polio vaccine

    Deccan Chronicle – Deccan Chronicle Holdings Limited is the publisher of largest circulated English Newspaper in South India

    April 14, 2012
    Cases of non-polio acute flaccid paralysis, better known as AFP, has sharply increased with the increase in the administration of oral polio vaccination (OPV) in the country under the much-acclaimed polio eradication programme.

    According to a report by Dr. Neetu Vashisht and Dr. Jacob Puliyel, appearing in the April-June issue of the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics, the incidence of non-polio AFP had gone up by 12 times over and above the normal rates with the onset of the administration OPV 10 years ago. The report appeared at a time when Kerala is getting prepared for another round of OPV on April 15.

    Dr. Jacob, also a member of the national technical advisory group on immunisation and of the working group on food and drug regulation in the 12th Five Year Plan, told DC on Friday that there was a definite co-relation between the increase in the number AFP and the irrational administration of OPV.

    Normally, he said, the chances of children under the age of 15 getting affected by non-polio AFP are 1-2 per 100,000. But, the rate of non-polio AFP nationally “is now 12 times higher than expected.” In 2011, an additional 47,500 children were newly paralyzed, over and above the standard rate of 2 children per 100,000 non-polio AFP cases, says the paper in the journal.

    Dr. Jacob said the increase in the occurrence of non-polio AFP could be directly linked to the massive increase in the dosage of OPV in the name of eradication. Although, the increase in the non-polio AFP was known for quite some time, it was for the first time that a co-relation was established by collating the data of the national polio surveillance, he said.

    “It is sad that, even after meticulous surveillance, this large excess in the incidence of paralysis was not investigated as a possible signal.”

    , nor was any effort made to try and study the mechanism for this spurt in non-polio AFP.”

    According to Dr Jacob, the dream of eradicating polio will remain a mirage due to the existence of “residual samples of samples virus stored in laboratories, by vaccine-derived polioviruses or by poliovirus that is chemically synthesized with malignant intent”.

    The increase in non-polio AFP might have been caused by the increase in OPV, leading to virus strains other than that of causing polio getting active, he said.

    Read the Article

    Like

  95. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Kathy,
    Many of us have had reason to realize that doctors are not particularly well-informed on the vaccine issue, and have huge stakes in not rocking the boat or disputing the party line. Many of us who are vaccine-damaged ourselves (MS) or have vaccine-damaged children (my daughter autistic from hep-B vax causing encephalitis) believe that the vaccines are actually more dangerous than the diseases. I’d advise people to read books on both sides of the issue before making up their mind, but not stopping at asking the doctor. He is certainly not going to begin to tell you all the facts you need to consider before vaxing. Read Randall Neustaedter, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Cynthia Cournoyer, Wendy Lydall, Aviva Jill Romm.

    Like

  96. Jessica
    May 10, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    I decided to vaccinate my children a long time ago, based on scientific research. I only learned of this story a couple of weeks ago and it reinforced my decision. Ya’ll are giving me a headache LOL! This is a story of something that ACTUALLY happened- measles killed members of my family. I’m amazed at how someone can try to debate that…

    Like

  97. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    He didn’t do the scientific study, he just wrote an article about it. You can clearly see that, no?

    Like

  98. Th1Th2
    May 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Karen :
    Cite your source, Th1Th2.

    Only non-medical people would ask a question like that. (Hint: This is a no-brainer)

    Like

  99. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    People, who when arguing, say things like us and we as well as refer to others in derogatory names, are well versed in Hasbara and can only be compensated shills … On one hand you have concerned parents, which is obvious. But what’s just as obvious is that the pro side is nothing but a few overly hostile, bordering on hateful people being paid to argue the pharmaceutical companies point of view (lie for money). It’s obvious. Pharmaceutical companies make billions, why wouldn’t they pay one or two thousand people a few million dollars to sit in their house and aggressively attack anyone who speaks up about their “products.” Thankfully the internet has awakened lots of people… hopefully one day enough will be awakened and some of the vicious pro big pharma people will have to get real jobs.

    http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

    That link is to the Hasbara manual. I defy anyone to read it and tell me the tactics being played here by the big pharma lovers didn’t come straight from that book. This isn’t about vaccines, it’s money and framing the issue. Big pharma wants money and they PAY people like Kelly to FRAME the issue. Tell US about this. WE have peer reviewed studies…. Who is WE and US? You’re one person. We and us in Kelly’s case is her ad big pharma

    Like

  100. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    The woman that wrote this article has forgotten more about vaccine science than you will ever know. Conspiracy, fallacy, gambit…all words used to try and debunk the truth…you are as transparent as a pane of glass…

    Like

  101. Jessica Montero
    May 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Thank you Cia. I will stand up for my beliefs regardless of ignorant bullies. I am not willing to play Russian Roulette with my sons life because someone tells me to. He is indespensible to me…..not just the statistic that he is to the big drug companies.

    Like

  102. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    That’s ridiculous. And it doesn’t matter how many times you repeat lies to me, I’m still not going to believe them. My baby was given the hep-B vax at ten minutes before midnight, I learned when I requested her records, having been born by C-section at 7:30 a. m. I had said I didn’t want her to get it, as I ‘d read it often caused autism. Congressional safety hearing a year before, in May 1999, had found that it was a dangerous vaccine, and said it definitely should not be used with mercury. So they stopped using it with mercury for a few months, and then decided to use up what they had with mercury in it, and gave it to my baby without asking permission, without giving me a list of vaccine reactions to watch for. When she was four days old, she started the screaming, on and on, inconsolably, literally all night long. I held her and rocked her. She had been nursing well, but she refused to nurse. She screamed without stop all night, finally falling into an exhausted sleep at dawn, to wake two hours later screaming again. On and on and on, starting Tuesday evening, May 9, ending Saturday afternoon, May 13. My mother told the doctor about the screaming, and he just asked if it was for more than three hours. My mother said it was for far, far longer than that. And then he said nothing, did nothing, did not suggest taking her to the ER.. I had asked him a month before to not give my baby that shot, and he agreed, but forgot to tell the staff at the hospital. He may have been thinking about legal consequences, or he may not even have considered the possibility of its being a vaccine reaction. She missed all her language milestones, and was diagnosed with suspected autism at 20 months. I did not know at the time that prolonged, inconsolable screaming is an indication of encephalitis, but I later realized that that is what she had had. If she had not had encephalitis caused by a worthless shot to prevent a sexually-borne disease, that has no business being given to newborns born to a healthy mother, she would not have autism now.
    Judy Converse had the same experience I did, and wrote a book on it. If you read it, she has lots of figures as to the numbers of autism cases in the vaxed and unvaxed. Autism did not exist before vaccines, unvaxed people have autism in tiny, insignificant numbers, there’s often an obvious cause/effect relationship, as in my daughter’s case or in those who were developing normally until they get the MMR, and then suddenly regress into autism and bowel disease.

    Like

  103. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    The animal tissues are broken down, they are indeed present in most vaccines, and are highly antigenic.

    No they are not, cia. Look up cell culture and how it is done.

    The vaccines that use human or animal tissues are: MMR, chickenpox, polio, rotavirus, flu, hep A, DTaP (some brands), Pentacel, tetanus and diphtheria, and Boostrix Tdap.

    No, try again, cia. Viral vaccines are grown in cells, not tissues. DTaP are bacterial, not viral.

    AIDS was transmitted in Africa several decades ago because they reused the same instruments for vaccinations for many people without sterilizing them in between. At least in that case many people got AIDS from the vaccines.

    No, they got AIDS from dirty needles that were used to give the vaccine. There is a difference. James claimed the vaccines contained HIV.

    Formaldehyde is present in many vaccines, is a carcinogen, can cause kidney and genetic damage.

    Not in the concentrations found in the vaccine.

    Many of us do not believe authorities when they assure us that a certain level is safe.

    I know, but just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean that it isn’t true.

    Why do you think it’s safe for a baby who probably weighs less than 12 pounds to get eight times as much aluminum as is considered the safe limit?

    Because those guidelines are for a chronic, IV administration of aluminum, which isn’t applicable to vaccines. The small amount of aluminum salts in vaccines are not toxic and not above a safe limit.

    I posted before a list of studies establishing the many dangers of aluminum in vaccines.

    No you didn’t, cia. You never provide citations for anything you say.

    What makes it a lie if I or he say that we believe or even that we know it’s dangerous?

    It’s a lie, because you know it is not true cia. James just might be parroting what others have said, but for you, we have explain what you “know” and “believe” is wrong. Knowingly making a false statement is the definition of a lie.

    I’ve often wondered why you call me a liar. Do you understand what the word means?

    Because you lie cia. Yes, I know what the word means, but you don’t seem to get the concept. Count the number of lies you have said in this post alone.

    Like

  104. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Sorry posted before finishing… This study is from 1994, but more than 15 years later the measles vaccine failure rates continues to be high and outbreaks still happen in fully vaccinated despite the now two doses, like recently in Canada.

    I know this will end in a citations battle, but my main point is that the scientific literature cannot support the claim that vaccines are the BEST way to battle these infectious diseases, better than say good nutrition and supplements that help boost the immune system and effective quarantine measures. Due mainly to inadequate research on adverse and long term effects, which equals unknown risks in the risk/benefits ratio) this has never been proven.

    Vaccines being around for a very long time and this absence of adequate studies on long term effects says one thing very loudly: the makers don’t care about long term effects. Appearance of safety is sufficient, Makers are immune to most lawsuits, and most patient can be easily manipulated.

    Like

  105. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    I agree with you, Shelly, the vaccines have so many toxic ingredients that it’s ironic to say they “protect” your child. I’ve said many times on this site that children in the Third World die from vaccine-preventable diseases because they’re malnourished and usually don’t have pure water or safe sewage systems.

    Like

  106. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Well if she knew vaccine science before, obviously she has forgotten it because she certainly didn’t include any in her article. She replaced the science with conspiracy theory, misconception, and logical fallacies.

    If what you say is debunked, then it obviously wasn’t the truth.

    Like

  107. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Yes, I can see that. So instead of reading the article for yourself, you go with what Mikey says. You do know that Mikey wants you to buy his crap and that he has no scientific training, right?

    Link the study, if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise you just look like a gullible person parroting whatever the con artist tells you to think.

    Like

  108. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Dan:

    like recently in Canada.

    That is some serious cherry picking. Actually it was only in Quebec, and they have a different MMR schedule. They are thinking of changing the second dose to later.

    Like

  109. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Thanks, Mike. Why are there so many people who distrust vaccines posting today? It’s such a relief to see sanity, intelligence, and responsibility here. I’m going to read the Hasbara manual right now. I’ve thought for months that the people here were paid to defend vaccines. Kelly has denied it, but I don’t know if she’s telling the truth. I’ve had fun with my friends making up scenarios about What would Kelly and Chris to to us if we ran into them at the supermarket? We quickly get so outrageous that we fall to the floor in hysterical laughter.

    Like

  110. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    You go find the study…all the info is there!

    Like

  111. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    I’m not paid any money to counter dangerous misinformation Mike.

    I’m a concerned parent that worries about the health of other people’s children. I would like to see people make an informed choice about vaccines. This blog post is about other moms speaking out against vaccine misinformation. I am part of that “we”.

    Mike is making what is know as an “ad hominem”. This is a logical fallacy because Mike can’t actually counter the argument that vaccines are safe and effective so instead he attacks the messenger, rather than the argument.

    Like

  112. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    Don’t you know it, Mike Hunt! 🙂

    Like

  113. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    I’ve read the study, vetridani. It’s a load of crap. Would you like to analyze it together? You might learn something.

    Like

  114. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Again with the old boring and tired Pharma Shill Gambit!

    Please! Give us something new and different! Like data and evidence! Perhaps you can support the assertion that pharmaceuticals make more money on the purchases of two doses of an MMR vaccine than they do from the hospital treatment for measles. Go and tell us exactly how much money the national health systems in Europe are saving by having over seven thousand people hospitalized with measles: European countries must take action now to prevent continued measles outbreaks in 2012:

    The WHO’s newest measles summary in the Weekly Epidemiological Record reports more than 26,000 cases of measles in 36 European countries from January-October 2011, with more than 14,000 of those in France. Despite strong health systems, Western European countries have reported 83% of these cases. These outbreaks have caused nine deaths, including six in France, and 7288 hospitalizations.

    Like

  115. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    And for months, you have been told that neither Chris or I are paid for our efforts. You just keep lying about that.

    The onus is one you to prove your claim, cia. If you claim I’m pharma shill, then you have to provide evidence to support that claim. Otherwise, you are just making it up, i.e. lying.

    Like

  116. Th1Th2
    May 10, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    Molecular Epidemiology of Live, Attenuated Varicella Virus Vaccine in Children with Leukemia and in Normal Adults

    Restriction endonuclease analysis of varicella-zoster virus (VZV) DNA has been used in unraveling the complex epidemiology of VZV infections in individuals immunized with a live, attenuated varicella virus vaccine. Early rashes appearing within the first six weeks after vaccination are invariably due to vaccine virus. True breakthrough infections with wild-type VZV also occur in vaccinees. Five cases of zoster have been seen in leukemic children vaccinated while in remission. One case appeared 22 months after vaccination in the same general area as the inoculation. The virus isolated was vaccine derived. A second case of zoster appeared in a dermatome unrelated to the sites of vaccination ∼19 months after apparently natural varicella. This virus was wild type. Vaccine virus can therefore establish latency and can later reactivate as herpes zoster.

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/155/4/633.short

    That’s a buy one take one offer to all vaccine fanatics. Crazy people.

    Like

  117. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    Go to UP and enlighten them… You are a PAID SHILL… I have no interest in your opinion! 🙂

    Like

  118. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    WHAT DO YOU DO CHRIS??? WHY ARE YOU SO AGGRESSIVE WITH THIS ISSUE??? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS????

    Like

  119. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Once again, cia. Provide citations to show that vaccine ingredients are toxic.

    So what about children that die of VPD in countries where they are not malnourished and have safe water and sanitation?

    Your child got pertussis. Was that because you weren’t feeding her, have no running water and let her play with her own feces?

    Like

  120. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    But you are playing Russian Roulette with your son’s life Jessica. By not vaccinating, you have loaded the gun with 5 bullets and left only one chamber blank. The odds are not in your son’s favour, and you don’t even realize it. Instead you put your beliefs before his health because you don’t like people telling you how you are misinformed.

    You can stick your fingers in your ears and stubbornly insist that you are right, or you can do what is best for your son and make an informed choice.

    Like

  121. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Wait for it Th1Th2…they’ll be coming to debunk it! 🙂

    Like

  122. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    «Oh, you are not pro-disease, Dan? You just want to leave kids vulnerable so they can get sick from disease. Sorry, dude. That’s pro-disease.»

    I am pro-truth… and the scientific literature is so vast and pokes so many holes at the vaccine bubble, from so many angles that it bursts. 21st century immunology fundamental science learns something new about the immune system every week, so much that it is hard to keep up, and mostly shows how wonderfully complex is the immune system, and how there is still so much to learn about it. I trust my long evolved immune system more than shark oil salesmen’s safety studies.

    Contrast this with vaccine pushers like yourself, who speak as if everything is known about what each vaccine does to the immune and neural systems, alone and in combination, when the truth is so far from there.

    So the most vaccinated infants should be the healthiest and the most protected, right? Do you have any proof of this?

    Like

  123. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    When the evidence does not support what you say, cia, then you are in error.

    It is not just me saying “you’re wrong”. Many times people have said to you “you’re wrong because X, Y, Z”.

    You repeat the same mistake over and over and over again, even though it has been explained to you that you are wrong. Since you know you are wrong, yet persist misleading people, you are lying. The first time you might not have known you were wrong. Now you do. You don’t learn or correct your errors.

    Perhaps this will illustrate the problem better for you.
    cia: 2+2 = 5
    Others: no cia, 2+2 = 4. See, here are two apples and here are two more apples and when you count them you get 4 not 5.
    cia: 2+2 = 5
    Others: No cia, 2+2 = 4, please stop lying.
    cia: 2+2 = 5

    Like

  124. JohnFryer
    May 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    The London Olympics are asking people born after 1956 to get their MMR vaccine up to date.

    What effect will this have on those that take the vaccines and on their children likely to be born with live rubella vaccine virus in their bodies?

    I was born before 1956 had the measles and have been in contact many times since with measles sufferers with no reaction.

    Vaccines do not last for life, only affect part of our body and old vaccine research indicates anaphylaxis as a normal reaction to repeat vaccines.

    As a supporter of vaccines until around 2000 I feel the propaganda takes many many years before you realise there are down sides that are not glossed over but actually denied.

    Vera Scheibner may or may not have good or bad qualifications etc etc but why does the bits of paper actually make the knowledge any better or worse?

    Her work on breathing difficulty after any vaccine should make any vaccine developer do similar studies before patenting their latest concoctions but to date I have never seen other studies done.

    Perhaps if they have someone might explain why this lady is wrong.

    SIDS, autism and many other illnesses and disorders need explaining as they coincide with vaccines.

    Also where are badly needed vaccines eg for AIDS?

    Vaccines may be wrongly blamed for autism but sudden death fits neatly with breathing problems after any vaccine and which sends many vaccinated babies into critical care to save their lives. What happens if this breathing difficulty occurs in a babies sleep?

    I would mention the babies of Angela Canning who refused to allow one child to be returned to her after vaccines and the hospital worked miracles to keep her alive. Following exactly the time scale described by Vera Scheibner. Angela lost other children after vaccines and was put in prison for the harm possibly from vaccines to her children. She received compensation for false imprisonment from the British Government.

    The issues are extremely complex but forced, intensive, early and repeat vaccines prevent any proper checks on their safety.

    Animal studies however do show proven harm from vaccines. Personally it is a shame to inflict vaccine damage on animals as well as the now one million sudden infant deaths and ten million with autism whatever this is. No proper clinical test proves or disproves autism making it an illness impossible to monitor and therefore likely to be multi caused and over diagnosed or underdiagnosed depending on whims of pyschiatrists.

    Like

  125. Jessica Montero
    May 10, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    As I said before Kelly, I have made my informed and right choice for my family. I am confident in my choice and your bully tactics will not sway that. I hope your Christmasldren do not have to be seriously injured before you decide to see the light.

    Like

  126. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    I am pro-truth… and the scientific literature is so vast and pokes so many holes at the vaccine bubble, from so many angles that it bursts.

    If you are pro-truth, then why is your next sentence a lie?

    The vast scientific literature supports vaccination, that is why anti-vaxers can’t quote the literature to support their position. You misrepresent the science to support your position, and that is intellectually dishonest.

    21st century immunology fundamental science learns something new about the immune system every week, so much that it is hard to keep up, and mostly shows how wonderfully complex is the immune system, and how there is still so much to learn about it. I trust my long evolved immune system more than shark oil salesmen’s safety studies.

    This is interesting, Dan. In one sentence you talk about the evolution of science and then the next you state that you are going to go with your belief system rather than that science. The science continues to support vaccination.

    Contrast this with vaccine pushers like yourself, who speak as if everything is known about what each vaccine does to the immune and neural systems, alone and in combination, when the truth is so far from there.

    Strawman, Dan. Where did I say everything is known? Where I think you are confused is that you think that because not everything is known that we know nothing. That’s not true. We do know that vaccines are safer than not vaccinating, for example, yet you chose not-vaccinating. Why do you go for the less safe choice?

    So the most vaccinated infants should be the healthiest and the most protected, right? Do you have any proof of this?

    That’s not my claim, Dan, so why would I have proof of that?

    As for unvaccinated kids getting sick more than vaccinated kids, yes. Vaccines would not be licensed if there was no evidence that they worked.

    Like

  127. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Unlike you Jessica. I do not wish ill-health on your child. I hope he remains in excellent health for the rest of his life. I don’t want him to get sick so that you can “see the light”. I’ll keep advocating for vaccines, so that he can hide in the herd as much as possible for you.

    Your choice is not informed, Jessica. You may think so, but you don’t even understand basic principles like what chemicals are. It’s unfortunate that you put your ideology before your child, but you are right, I can’t stop you from being ignorant if you choose that path.

    Like

  128. JohnFryer
    May 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Kelly says

    – you are lying about aluminum salts being linked to neurological disorders and diseases

    So what about the work by French scientist since the discovery of illness in 1993 now found and proved to be due to aluminium salts in vaccines.

    Permitted aluminium levels have descended like a stone as we discover more and more of the toxicity. See history of Camelford and alzheimer disease and cancer et al afterwards.

    Calcium vaccines were invented because of their better safety compared to mercury or alumnium vaccines but were scrapped from ignorance rather than science.

    Also the work showing aluminium in anti perspiration powders link to breast cancer.

    Not jut levels allowed getting less but heading to zero permitted levels with French firms selling aluminium free products.

    Any study of fines and past errors by vaccine companies is enough to make sense of the 98 per cent of medical knowledgeable personnel who REFUSE routine vaccines.

    All in all counter argument that Kelly and Chris are definitely not in the vaccine business.

    Consider the infamous U tube expossee of the worlds greatest vaccine developer in the company of fledgling developers.

    Like

  129. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    The increase in cases is due to increase surveillance as part of the polio vaccination program.

    Furthermore, OPV is no longer used in countries that do not have endemic polio.

    Like

  130. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Do you have any citations for any of that John or are you just copying and pasting from an anti-vax website like the other anti-vaxers commenting on this thread?

    An “illness” by a mysterious “French scientist” which was proved to be caused by vaccines but nobody knows about it? Not super convincing.

    Calcium vaccines to replace mercury and aluminum? Well, first of all, mercury isn’t in vaccines. Thimerosal was a mercury compound which was used as a preservative. Aluminum is also not in vaccines but aluminum salts have been used as adjuvants. Calcium can do both functions, eh? Amazing. Love to see the studies that showed these vaccines to be effective and safer yet scrapped.

    Antiperspirants cause breast-cancer? OMG!!!!!! Citation needed.

    98% are refusing routine vaccines, when over 90% of the population are vaccinated? WOW!!!!! Citation needed.

    Like

  131. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Actually Kelly, I don’t know enough about vaccines to debate them, but I know a lot about debates and how corporations pay people to frame that debate for them… hence the Hasbara manual link… I want other people to have access to the type of literature that you’ve been given by the pharmaceutical companies to help you perform your job..these parents battling with and your employers need to know the enemy and how they operate… now they do. Enjoy!.

    Like

  132. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    I’ve been given a manual from pharmaceutical companies to help me perform my job? LOL.

    Well, considering I don’t work for a pharmaceutical company and I’ve never seen you link before, this is news to me.

    Debating with anti-vaxers is pretty easy. Most of their premises are factually wrong and you can defeat the argument that way. They are also found of logical fallacies which kills their argument too.

    I’ve actually yet to see an anti-vaxer present a legitimate argument. I’m hoping one day someone will show up and we can have a real debate. Right now it’s mostly just correcting their misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies.

    Like

  133. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Oh Kelly Sweetie…. opinions are like…but hey, if telling yourself that you’re the brightest kid in class helps you get over whatever short coming you’re trying to compensate for, go for it… ::>) Forgive the four eyes, I was vaccinated… LOL

    Like

  134. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    I love how you post an anti Tenpenny page with 215 likes as opposed to her official page with over 30,000 likes! 🙂

    Like

  135. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    I like Mike! 🙂

    Like

  136. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    @Kelly – quite right, how dare we show links to actual clinical studies and research on PubMed as evidence, when all the anti-vaccine people have is emotional appeals, incorrect (and downright false) information, and name-calling.

    At least MH admits that he doesn’t know enough about vaccines – perhaps he should actual do a bit of research first….

    Like

  137. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    @vetrdani – insane troll is insane, best to ignore her – she is a one trick pony & not on either of our sides (trust me on this one).

    Like

  138. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    BTW Oh brilliant ones… Often I’ve wondered how the hell I’m alive when my relatives from thousands of years ago weren’t vaccinated? Was it cleaner then? Less diseases? Please, enlighten me…

    Like

  139. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    @mike – because we reproduced a lot faster than diseases could kill us off. Well, there was that time in the Middle Ages, you know, when the Black Death killed about 50% of the population….plus the hundreds of millions who died of Smallpox before it was ultimately eradicated.

    Herd immunity isn’t an artificial creation – all the way back to the beginning, when a human population had been sufficiently infected / rendered immune, that population was safe – until enough babies were born without immunity to start the disease cycle back up again. It is only with vaccines that we’ve been able to successfully break the cycle of infection / re-infection of the population – and unfortunately, because we haven’t been able to eliminate diseases like the measles (stupid anti-vaxxers – don’t you realize that if we could eradicate measles, we could get rid of the vaccine?) it can easily spread again, as is happening in Europe.

    Like

  140. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    I mean really, can you imagine what our caveman relatives ate…the wounds they suffered… and yet here we are…without a single vaccine… It’s amazing!

    Like

  141. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    The FB page for this blog has over 55,000 likes, not that it matters. Remember that logical fallacy, appeal to popularity? You just did it. The number of people that “like” Tenpenny, doesn’t make her more correct. It sadly represents the large amount of scientific illiteracy amongst parents.

    Like

  142. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    @mike – see my comment above. Also, given that most of your ancestors probably didn’t live past the age of 30 until the last hundred or so years, I think you’re better off than they were.

    Like

  143. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    He doesn’t seem to know a whole lot about critical thinking either. For example, he can’t differentiate between an opinion and an argument.

    Like

  144. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Lawrence, thanks for the education and more importantly, thanks for being a decent human being who knows how to properly get along with people… even ones they might not agree with… It’s refreshing…

    Like

  145. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Exactly. Read the blog post Mike. Jessica is talking about her ancestors that died from measles.

    Like

  146. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Herd immunity CANNOT be artificially produced, it’s a NATURAL immunity from getting the disease that lasts a lifetime…vaccine induced “immunity” wanes, creating theses outbreaks when the vaccinated carriers become symptomatic and contagious!

    Like

  147. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Mike, you seem to be confused. It is the anti-vaxers that think they are the brightest kids in class. Sadly, they don’t even grasp first principles. If you ever learn more about vaccines, you’ll see what I mean.

    Like

  148. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    @mike – not a problem. Vaccines have played a big part in helping to both control, and in some cases (like Smallpox & Rinderpest – and almost Polio) eradicate diseases that were a very real plague on mankind. Of course, modern society (with good sanitation, better food, access to modern health care, etc) has made many diseases much more survivable, the one thing this hasn’t changed is the very real side-effects of those disease – getting the measles can still result in encephilitis, in as many as 1 in a thousand cases & opportunistic infections and pneumonia are still very common as well (with all of the standard childhood diseases) – which can result in very real long-term problems.

    Mumps can cause sterility, rubella causes severe birth defects – so vaccines do a very important job in preventing those conditions in children (that they would have to live with). These are not benign diseases – they do main and kill. Except in very rare cases, vaccines don’t – and the multiple upon multiple studies that disprove the autism link, plus the on-going post-approval vaccine safety survellience programs have borne this out as well.

    If you are going to have a debate, do so with actual facts – not accusations of “Pharma-Shills” and name-calling.

    Like

  149. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @vertidani – don’t see us getting smallpox “boosters” anymore, do you?

    Like

  150. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    So why are the current outbreaks of measles due to unvaccinated people, vetridani?

    Herd immunity can be artificial produced. Measles was no longer endemic in the UK until anti-vaxers eroded herd immunity and measles came back.

    Like

  151. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    @Kelly – the sad fact is we could have eradicated measles too, except for the anti-vaccinationists.

    Like

  152. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Thank you Larry…can you please provide me with the studies that prove vaccines are safe?

    Does this have any validity?

    http://healthfreedoms.org/2009/10/23/children-who-are-not-vaccinated-never-get-autism/

    Like

  153. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @vertdani – here is a good place to start: http://antiantivax.flurf.net

    And no, there are plenty of incidences of children diagnosed with autism that were never vaccinated – though the anti-vaccinationists then move the goalposts to claim it was vaccines that the mother got that caused it (typical behavior, unfortunately).

    Like

  154. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    @vertdani – oh, and it is a myth that the Amish don’t vaccinate – they do. And there are special education schools in the Amish community for autistics. That is a very old and very debunked myth perpetuated by the anti-vaccine community.

    Like

  155. May 10, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    What will be the story if they keep vaccinating? Easy. They won’t get sick and they won’t pass on deadly diseases to infants.

    Like

  156. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    @vertdani – you can find those studies very easily – for example, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ and search for “vaccine safety.” There are more than a few listed.

    I get 10277 results, just from a simple search. Not all are directly related to the vaccines we are discussing, but additional simple searches will provide you with a very good list.

    Each and every vaccine goes through the same rigorous FDA approval process, plus is subjected to post-approval long-term safety survellience. To say that vaccines aren’t tested is a worn and easily debunked myth.

    Like

  157. May 10, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Actually, not vaccinating is pretty much the equivalent to standard of care circa 1902.

    Like

  158. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    @John – care to explain why the incidences of SIDS has significantly decreased with the push to get parents to have babies sleep on their stomachs?

    Like

  159. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    What do you make of this?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22542447

    Like

  160. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Rinderpest virus and measles virus are cousins. If we can eradicate rinderpest virus, we should be able to eradicate measles virus. Sad that the pro-disease crowd won’t allow that.

    Like

  161. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Aren’t the studies that the FDA require funded/conducted by the vaccine makers?

    Like

  162. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    “If you are going to have a debate, do so with actual facts – not accusations of “Pharma-Shills” and name-calling.”
    Forgive me for not knowing how the quotes work. Anyway, I stated from the get go that I don’t know enough about vaccines to debate the issue, but I do know about debates and how corporations pay people to frame the debate for them. I deal with people who speak like Kelly when I debate the Middle East, and guess what, Kelly and those people sound EXACTLY the same. that’s why I KNOW she’s a shill.

    For example, let’s say the vaccine industry makes 5 billion per year on vaccines (please don’t tell me they don’t make money on them or that they make little money. I’m a Libertarian, businesses function for one reason, PROFITS!) So, say they make 5 billion, and they have parents, lots of parents, claiming that their child has been injured by a vaccine, why in the world wouldn’t the drug company invest some of those billions in paying people to counter the argument? If you don’t believe they would, please explain why… But if you say it’s because big drug makers care about people, I’m going to laugh really hard and then offer to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge…

    Like

  163. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    Yes. Initial studies required for licensing are paid for by the manufactures. These studies cost millions of dollars. It makes sense to have the company pay for the studies and have the FDA review the data.

    Post-licensing studies can be paid by a number of different sources. Each study will list it’s funding source.

    For someone that is supposed to be informed, why don’t you know this?

    Like

  164. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    “As opposed to the vaxed and unvaxed kids with autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, learning disorders, asthma, allergies, bowel disease, diabetes, PANDAS, MS, paralysis, etc.”

    Fixed that for you, Cia!

    Like

  165. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    How many “positive” studies do they have to site to get a drug/vaccine approved? How many studies to they do overall? Are they able to cherry pick only the positive studies and bury the negative ones that show devastating side effects?

    Like

  166. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    I’m not a shill, Mike. So if that is the basis of your opinion, it has been debunked. You can give it up now.

    As a businessman, wouldn’t it be easier just to make safe vaccines in the first place then try to cover-up supposedly lots of vaccine injuries?

    How much money would it take you to lie about the truth, Mike? For me, no amount of money would be enough to lie. So I don’t believe they would because it would cost more than billions of dollars and it wouldn’t work. There would be some unpaid smuck like me that would blow the whistle.

    I don’t think companies care about people, but people care about people. The people that work for the companies and the doctors and scientists that are independent of the companies. I didn’t go into science to get rich. I would have become a businessman for that.

    The explanation of the doctor’s seeming want of business acumen lies partly
    in the restraining influence of his timehonored precepts of conduct, partly in his preference to hold the respect of his own kind rather than of the financial world, and partly because inherently he’s that kind of person else he wouldn’t have gone into medicine in the first
    place. Harvey Cushing, M.D., Medicine at the Crossroads, J.A.M.A., May 20, 1933,-
    page 1571-72.

    Like

  167. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    I agree that these guys should take as many vaccines as their heart desires.

    The difference between us and you, Cia, is that we don’t base our vaccine decisions on what our hearts desire.

    Like

  168. S Loire
    May 10, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    I am not sure where on this whole blog, but someone just referred to DR Tenpenny, an illiterate. Is this person insane?

    Like

  169. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    This is amusing… I have to thank my friend for inviting me. You guys actually believe that drug companies want to eradicate diseases? They’d go out of BUSINESS! If disease is your business, you don’t want disease to go away. In fact, you would want to PROMOTE disease….maybe by getting the GOVERNMENT to REQUIRE vaccines (even if they’re harmful, because the government too cares more about money than people) for kids… and you might go about that by hiring a LOBBYIST to pay off the crooked politician… You all seem so naive as to how business and government work…I’m curious to know if any of you still believe in Santa too?

    Like

  170. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Unvaccinated people have healthier immune systems than vaccinated ones. They can cope better with any disease they contract better than vaccinated ones.

    Funny.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023764
    “Our study revealed that children who received vaccination against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, HiB and poliomyelitis simultaneously within the third month of life do not exhibit enhanced frequencies of infectious disease-associated symptoms. In contrary, the frequencies of infection-associated symptoms were found to be significantly reduced. This might be caused by a vaccination-associated unspecific enhancement of immunological activity (e.g. mediated by interleukin 2) or by other presently still unknown factors.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1647657
    “Contrary to the premise, an apparent protective effect against invasive bacterial disease was detected after all childhood vaccinations. However, when adjustment was made for frequency of well-care visits and day-care attendance, no significant relationship was seen between receipt of routine childhood immunizations and risk of invasive heterologous bacterial disease for any individual vaccine, although a statistically significant protective effect was detected within 1 or 3 months after the receipt of any vaccine.”

    Like

  171. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Oh she is very literate. She uses her literacy skills to manipulate people into thinking she knows what she is talking about. She is a smooth talker that’s for sure, but when you actually fact-check what she is saying, you’ll find out that she is blowing smoke.

    Like

  172. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Hey Kelly, If you actually believe that you being a shill is debunked because YOU said you aren’t on an internet web site has any meaning at all… you are far more arrogant than I gave you credit for, and you probably have controls issues too… but hey, don’t worry, they have a drug for that.

    Like

  173. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    In the 1980s a lot of kids were having adverse reactions to the DTP (diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis) vaccine. Lots of lawsuits were being filed against docs and vaccine manufacturers. This caused the pharmaceutical industry to make noises about pulling out of the vaccine market, and the alarm bells rang that the nation’s health and safety were at risk. Why were vaccine manufacturers getting ready to take their ball and go home? Because vaccines fall into a class of products considered “unavoidably unsafe”. I am not kidding you. This “unavoidable” word comes from the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act itself “products which, in the present state of human knowledge, are quite incapable of being made safe.” So they TRIED, but sorry, they just can’t come up with vaccines that are safe enough that their risk department will allow them to sell them. Because a HUGE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY sees that even THEY do not have enough money to cover all the expense of fighting and paying injured vaccine recipients. This is an industry that today spends over $200,000,000 A YEAR in lobbyists. Which puts it way ahead of Oil industry in terms of lobbyist expense.

    So the Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (that title alone points to fact that vaccines can injure children) in 1986. This releases all manufacturers and administers of vaccines from all liability from any injury caused by a vaccine. Then an interesting thing started happening… we went from giving 10 vaccines to 36-38 vaccines! Imagine that! Remove liability and Big Pharma start cranking out vaccines like twinkies!

    Like

  174. Dan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Kelly, I said I trust my long evolved immune system «better than shark oil salesmen’s safety studies», not better than science. I respect well made science.

    Vaccine “science” has an ostrich approach to vaccine side effects, that’s why they don’t find many. Assessing the possible side effects of known to be potentially neuro or immunotoxic ingredients on the immune or neural system by just looking at the injection site, some pee and blood samples, and self reported symptoms from the subjects, for just a few weeks hardly qualify as hard evidence of long term safety. Again, good thing that babies can’t talk…

    Chris has agreed that VAERS is a useless way of assessing adverse effects, and there are no other systematic recording of possible side effects. Then how can anyone pretend to know that vaccinating is safe when no one knows what the long term benefits vs risks ratios on any vaccine truly are? Hence the commentary about you pretending to know everything there is to know about side effects… the point being that not much is done to study them. But why do I bother, I don’t think you truly care about vaccine adverse effects, just like their makers, as is evidenced by the scope through which they “study” them.

    Like

  175. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    I don’t think drug companies want to eradicate disease. I think that people that care about others and want to eliminate suffering in others want to eradicate the disease.

    There is plenty of disease to go around. The drug companies didn’t go bankrupt when smallpox was eradicated.

    If the government recommendations were just based on opinion, then you might have something there, Mike. The government recommendations are based on science, so it would cost a lot of money to cook the data. Wakefield got how much to cook his results? Just under half a million pounds wasn’t it? And his fraud was detected less that a decade later and lost everything. Doesn’t seem like a very good business plan to me.

    Like

  176. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    @Mike – if you go back to the early 1980’s, drug companies were beginning to close down production and research into new vaccines. The low profit margin & the money spent on civil lawsuits was pushing the industry out of the vaccine business. At the time, a compromise was reached (Barbara Lee Fisher was actually one of the original proponents) and the National Vaccine Compensation Program was created, where a percentage of profits were placed in a pool to be paid out to those that had legitimate vaccine injury claims.

    This “Vaccine Court” was designed to be very plaintiff-friendly (less stringent evidence rules & a 50% + a feather award basis) and much less expensive to utilize (by both the manufacturers and claimants) than regular civil litigation. Of course, the civil litigation option was kept in place, so if parents were not satified with what they received, they could still file a claim in Federal Court. But, this does level the playing field – making it a much better option for plaintiffs instead of fighting the deep pockets of manufacturers in the much more expensive and less-plaintiff friendly Civil Court.

    There is a list of recognized vaccine injuries – and claims are, in fact (despite what the guys at AoA would tell you) paid out – some very significant. Since vaccine manufacturers also pay for the post-approval survellience program (out of their own pockets – by Federal regulation), it doesn’t mean that they control it – quite the contrary, it is run by a combination of groups, including the FDA, CDC & collects reports from doctors, hospitals, and other medical professionals all over the country. This post-survellience has resulted in changes to various vaccines and recommendations over time – which is exactly what we want to see.

    In study, after study, after study, not just from the US, but from all over the world, supported by independent educational institutions, medical research facilities, government health departments, etc – vaccines have proven to be very safe, with very few side effects (the vast majority very minor) with very, very rare serious side-effects. In some cases, so rare that although they get listed, no enough evidence is available to definitely connect them to the administration of a vaccine.

    Vaccines are low-profit, compared to other more regular treatments (heck, Viagra is one of the most-profitable drugs of all time) – and if a particular disease is eradicated (like Smallpox) there is no longer a need for the vaccine. Ultimately, the vaccine manufacturers themselves are better served by the anti-vaccine crowd, since their efforts at reducing vaccine rates just mean more vaccines will ultimately be produced – now, that’s capitalism for you – who’s better for their bottom line now?

    Like

  177. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    I don’t like Mike…I love him! 🙂

    Like

  178. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Many of us have had reason to realize that doctors are not particularly well-informed on the vaccine issue

    Many of us have come to realize from comments on this blog that antivaxers are not particularly well-informed on the vaccine issue, or the scientific method in general.

    and have huge stakes in not rocking the boat or disputing the party line

    Indeed. They have a great bias against dead and disabled children.

    my daughter autistic from hep-B vax causing encephalitis

    Again I will point out for the readers that your child was not found to have encephalitis and you made that diagnosis up to fit your beliefs.

    Like

  179. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    My Uncle was a hematologist for 50 years, he passed away a year ago. When the big “bird flu” scare came out, I asked him about the vaccine… he said it was BS. Great old school doctor. 1,000 people came to his funeral. People he hadn’t charged a penny in years because they didn’t have money or insurance. I’d believe him over some stiff on a message board, or the government or the drug companies every time.

    Like

  180. Lara Lohne
    May 10, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Vetridani,

    For the record, my son, as well as several other children I know, were not vaccinated and yet still developed autism. My son is fully vaccinated now, but it was done well after his symptoms began to manifest, prior to him turning three so he could participate in the Early Intervention Special Education pre-school. He is my 6th child and the only one with autism and the only one that was not vaccinated according to the CDC schedule. All of his older siblings would have received vaccines with thimerosal in them as they were born and began getting vaccinations prior to it being removed from childhood vaccines. You can’t deny these facts, my 5 older children, vaccinated on time and on schedule are neurotypical, my youngest child, not vaccinated on time or according to the schedule has autism. Therefore this claim that unvaccinated children never get autism is completely fabricated. Numerous studies have shown the instance of autism is just as prevalent in unvaccinated children as in vaccinated. There isn’t any difference between the two groups of children with autism, other then one group were vaccinated and the other group were not. So to answer your question, no, that post has no validity.

    Like

  181. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    You’re sweet dani! Wanna give ourselves 20 vaccines over 30 days and see what happens to us? LOL

    Like

  182. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    As part of this Vaccine Injury Act, vaccine administers had to provide Vaccine Information Sheets (VISs) prior to vaccinating a patient.

    These sheets are considered a parent’s or patient’s INFORMED CONSENT. Except there are a couple of things I take issue with. First, vaccines, on this sheet, are referred to as safe – not, as above, where they are classified as UNAVOIDABLY UNSAFE. So unsafe that an entire industry threatened to walk away from producing them if they were not given complete immunity from the fallout. Think about that piece of information the next time someone tells you that vaccines are proven safe. It is not true. I realize that into each life a little risk must fall, but stop telling people that vaccines are completely safe. My second problem with this VIS sheet is that it announces that the chances of having a severe problem from this MMR shot are “extremely small”. I really think that it should tell people that anaphylaxis and encephalopathy are “on table injuries” in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. An “on table injury” is a vaccine injury that is so common that it is presumed to be caused by the vaccine and is included in a table of more frequently compensated vaccine injuries. By the way, encephalopathy is brain damage.
    This drug — which I am told I am REQUIRED to give my child – is considered unavoidably unsafe.

    Like

  183. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Hey Mike, if you actually think I’m a shill because you believe I am than you are the one that has issues. I thought you knew how to debate? Isn’t there something about unsupported claims in debate?

    Or how about this logical fallacy – http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

    So why is it so important for you to attack me? Is it because you admitted that you don’t know what you are talking about and I do so you are trying to make yourself look better than me?

    Like

  184. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Awful lot of words, but no real answers…save the canned crapola for the people that really care. I prefer straight from the heart honesty…

    Like

  185. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    lol Mike 🙂

    Like

  186. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    He didn’t do the scientific study, he just wrote an article about it. You can clearly see that, no?

    Yes, and when you read the articles, you find that they are poor in quality and that Adams is lying about them.

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2012/05/this-is-going-around-new-study-baby-monkeys-develop-autism-after-routine-cdc-vaccinations.html

    Like

  187. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    You’d believe a dead guy over evidence? Well, that says a lot.

    What do you think a hematologist knows about virology in general and bird flu in particular?

    Like

  188. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    I think Kelly enjoys saying fallacy/phallic…very similar. Get off the computer girl and go have yourself some FUN! 😉

    Like

  189. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Then why do you use logical fallacies as a debate tool? That’s very intellectually dishonest of you Mike. How do you look at yourself in the mirror if you prefer honesty when you are a dishonest person?

    Like

  190. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    No real answers, huh?

    Did you even look at http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Science trumps opinion every time.

    Like

  191. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    I’m stilling laughing over here. Kelly, how can anyone take you seriously when your response to being called a shill is… “I’m not a shill, now that’s debunked” I hope to God you seek treatment for your issues… as amusing as they are… “I’m the Queen of Sheeba.. because I say so” TFF…

    ::>) <——- Look, I was vaccinated, and now I have four eyes…

    Like

  192. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Does any of this make sense?

    http://www.squidoo.com/vaccinesdonothing

    Like

  193. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Yes. No real answers to MY specific questions…but a lot of canned BS. provided by whomever.

    Like

  194. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @kelly – if the WHO had downplayed the “Bird Flu” and it did turn into a true epidemic, you know who would get blamed, right?

    Like

  195. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Sorry Larry…did not seem scientific to me…but heck I’m just a dumb blonde! lol 🙂 Thanks for providing the info though, I greatly appreciate your approach. I just was not convinced.

    Like

  196. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    I’m Rumpelstiltskin… Phew, glad I debunked the non-believers…

    Like

  197. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    @mike – what were those questions again?

    Like

  198. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Who is telling people that vaccines are completely safe? The VIS clearly indicates the risks.

    Not vaccinating is even more unavoidably unsafe than the vaccine.

    An “on table injury” is a vaccine injury that is so common that it is presumed to be caused by the vaccine and is included in a table of more frequently compensated vaccine injuries. By the way, encephalopathy is brain damage.

    You are misunderstanding how adverse events end up on the table. It is not because they are common, but because the available evidence suggests plausibility.

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

    Like

  199. May 10, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Kelly claims the following are “educating” people on vaccines :
    Dr. Viera Scheibner, Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, Dr. J Anthony Morris (former chief vaccine control officer), Dr. Archie Kalokerinos, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, Dr. Gary Null and Dr. Andrew Moulton just to name a few.

    Viera Scheibner is a retired PhD-level geologist (specifically, micro-paleontology). After her retirement, with no further training in human biology, immunology, infectious disease, medicine, or vaccinology she became an advocate for vaccine refusal. She claims the only reason children die from measles, pertussis, or polio is medical mismanagement. She also defends baby-murderers, claiming shaken-baby syndrome is never abuse but always vaccine injury. I’d call her a ghoul.

    J. Anthony Morris, PhD: He was employed by the FDA from the 1940s until 1976, when he notified his superiors of his plans to go on a national TV talk show (to present an opinion that wasn’t the FDA’s official position) and was told to cancel. He went anyways, and was fired for insubordination. Yes, he was a senior official at FDA and he was involved in investigating flu vaccines, but such professional responsibility ended 36 years ago. Think of the revolution in genetics and recombinant gene technology since then. While I am sure Dr. Morris was influential in his day, that day is long passed, and I see no reason for Dr. Morris to be influential about today’s flu vaccines.

    Archivides “Archie” Kalokerinos MD earned his MD in 1951, and reached retirement age in 1991, almost 20 years ago. Dr. Kalankerinos is famous for addressing the dreadful state of Aboriginal health. He had several forays in and out of medicine (most notably as a brawling opal miner from 1965-1976, when he returned to medicine. In the mid-1980s, he became convinced (without any evidence) that on the idea that needles are reused in order to deliberately spread AIDS. At any rate, Kalokerinos died earlier this year, and will not be spreading any more misinformation about vaccines.

    Sherri Tenpenny, DO, is a graduate of the Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine and is board certified in Emergency Medicine and Osteopathic Manual Medicine. At some point, her career changed from Emergency Medicine to “wellness”, incluidng making a living from selling fear about vaccines. Her credentials were found “insufficient” to be an expert witness in an adult vaccine-injury case. Currently, she is trying out a scheme to charge peope for vacicne information that is available free of charge.

    Gary Null came to fame with “The Complete Guide to Health and Nutrition, published in 1972 when he was 27. Null has been certified as a nutritionist in New York State since 1996. He was awarded PhD in human nutrition and public health sciences from The Union Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio in 1986; it is not clear that his course of study included any in the sciences or in. Null has been sued by the estate of a woman who died after using Gary Null’s Power Formula. (Oh, he’s an HIV-AIDS denialist too).

    Andrew Moulton is a Canadian one-time MD who has some quite unsupported ideas about the effect of vaccines on human health. He is a germ-theory denier, In 2008 he was selling a scam to diagnose children with autism (or vaccine injury) via a 30-second video. His ideas are so extreme, and his behavior so bizarre and unprofessional, that his testimony has been excluded from the notoriously lose vaccine court.

    =====
    Kelly, if those are the luminaries of the “vaccine education” movement I wonder what qualifications and skills the rank and file possess.

    Like

  200. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Kelly, sweetheart, I’m one of the most honest people anyone could ever meet… but unlike you, I’m intelligent enough to KNOW that I can’t PROVE it here on the internet. That’s the difference between you and me sweety. You are lying. You just said “I’m not a shill, now that’s debunked” that to me is not only dishonest, it’s insane…but you’re crazy enough to feel as humiliated as you should. Don’t sweat it though, the lunatics that debate about the Middle East are the same way

    Like

  201. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    @vetridani – from a certain point of view, perhaps. Mortality rates have gone down significantly (less kids died), but until vaccines prevented widespread infections, side-effects like sterility, blindness, deafness, and rubella-caused birth defects were extremely common.

    Like

  202. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Yo Mike – Your argument is that I’m a shill because YOU said so. So how am I supposed to take you seriously?

    Let me try this link with you again, because you don’t seem to be understanding – http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

    It is perfectly legitimate to ask you to support your claim or move on.

    Like

  203. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Hey Mike wanna date? lol

    Like

  204. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    So, a scientific rebuttal of the common anti-vaccine myths doesn’t seem “scientific” to you?

    You must have a pretty strange definition of science.

    Like

  205. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Lawerence, sorry pal, I don’t do the spin game where I have to repeat myself when everything I’ve written is right here for you to refer too. The spin game is in that hasbara manual too. You folks should give it a read, you’ll see yourselves… well, maybe not Kelly.

    Like

  206. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    dani, sure! I’ll meet you anywhere. We’ll get vaccinated and never get sick again… except for the side effects, but WTF…

    Like

  207. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Nothing in life is 100% safe vetridani. It is more unsafe not to vaccinate, but that doesn’t seem to bother you.

    Vaccine manufacturers are not protected from lawsuits in other countries. In Canada, you can sue the manufacturer.

    Like

  208. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Yes, it is kind of fun pointing out the arrogance of anti-vaxers. They think they are so clever and then make all these mistakes of logic.

    Like

  209. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    @mike – funny. I don’t seem to see any questions from you we haven’t already addressed, and I addressed several of them myself. Someone isn’t being honest here, and I know it isn’t me.

    Like

  210. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    @Mike again – show us where anyone gets 20 vaccines in 30 days.

    Like

  211. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Bird flu has a 30-50% mortality rate. Anti-vaxers get their panties in a twist over the extremely remote chance of vaccines causing death, but bird flu? All hype. These people sure are confused about risk assessment.

    Like

  212. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    lol 🙂

    Like

  213. vetridani
    May 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    It was a joke Larry…lighten up! geesh! Bye everyone it’s been fun, well not really… 🙂

    Like

  214. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    The London Olympics are asking people born after 1956 to get their MMR vaccine up to date.
    What effect will this have on those that take the vaccines and on their children likely to be born with live rubella vaccine virus in their bodies?

    MMR is contraindicated in pregnancy, so I would say no effect at all.

    I was born before 1956 had the measles and have been in contact many times since with measles sufferers with no reaction.

    Fantastic. I was born some time after, and had the measles vaccine with no reaction. And have never been in contact with a person suffering measles, because the vaccine prevented the suffering.

    Vaccines do not last for life

    Some do. Measles appears to, as does hepatitis b. Of course, natural infection does not always provide immunity for life either.

    old vaccine research indicates anaphylaxis as a normal reaction to repeat vaccines.

    Citation?

    Vera Scheibner may or may not have good or bad qualifications etc etc but why does the bits of paper actually make the knowledge any better or worse?

    Her “knowledge” is independently bad, as has been demonstrated by the numerous studies that show a decrease in SIDS in the vaccinated. Her poor qualifications simply explain why her work is so bad.

    Perhaps if they have someone might explain why this lady is wrong.

    Here is why.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X07002800

    “Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important.”

    Viera’s hypothesis may well have been a good one thirty years ago. It has been disproven.

    Also where are badly needed vaccines eg for AIDS?

    They’re working on it. Do you think it’s an easy thing?

    http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/rethinking-healthcare/whats-holding-us-back-from-having-an-hiv-vaccine/8770

    Like

  215. May 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    vetridani wrote

    ,
    ” it’s a NATURAL immunity from getting the disease that lasts a lifetime…”

    Well, not so much, depending upon (a) the disease and (b) the individual.

    Pertussis is the prime example, with vaccine-induced immunity and disease-induced immunity having very similar decay trajectories.

    In any case, your argument that vaccination cannot provide herd (community) immunity is easily disproven by examining epidemiological records from say, 10 years before a vaccine against a specific disease was introduced, and comparing to 10 years after the the vaccine had good coverage (typically 3-5 years after the introduction of a vaccine).

    On to “the individual”. We know that no vaccine has a 100% response rate, because some individuals just don’t respond to some or all vaccines. Second, some vaccines (say, the acellular pertussis formulation) are less robust: produce immunity in fewer people. However, it’s always a range.

    Like

  216. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Lawerence, I didn’t see you say anything about the government, the lobbyists, the money, the fact that big drug companies could easily pay people to sit here ALL DAY LONG to argue their point. … you just keep posting words from what I assume are those all important peer reviewed studies…If I’m wrong I apologize and I’ll look again, but please, save the links and the canned stuff for the other people that really care. I don’t care. I do what I want. No expert can sway me one way or another. The government lies so much that if they say something is good for me I don’t believe it. I’m a free thinker, we’re nutty like that…Really, who believes the WHO or the CDC? We’re from the gov’t and we’re here to help! LOL

    Like

  217. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    I love how the fact that the lack of vaccines does not result in the total extinction of the human race is somehow an argument against vaccines. Brilliant.

    Like

  218. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    @vetridani – of course, if one of us said something like that, I don’t you would have taken it as a joke.

    Like

  219. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    lawerence, it was a joke… but I’d love to see one of you people take the full set of vaccines in a few months or a year and see how the hell you feel. What a great experiment. All of you that love putting foreign substances into your bodies could do it and the rest of us could sit back and watch what happens to you. Fun fun fun

    Like

  220. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    It will be especially hard to prove it on the internet when what you type on this internet forum has been intellectually dishonest.

    I am lying? Really? Because you said so? http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

    I’m not humiliated Mike. You just grouped me in with a bunch of people that I have no connection with because you *think* I’m like them. Not really very honest of you to lie about me being a shill, is it Mike?

    Besides, even if I was a shill, that does not discredit the evidence in favour of vaccines. That’s the think with ad hominems. The fallacy is in attacking the person, not the argument. It is a dishonest debate technique, which should be beneath someone who claims to be “one of the most honest people anyone could ever met”.

    Like

  221. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    @Mike – that makes you an extremely poor debater, since you freely admit to not caring or listening to facts.

    Big Pharma has no need to pay people on the Internet to refute anti-vaccine crankery. There are enough of us who care enough for the health of our own and other children, and have enough sense to actual read the Science, the history of diseases, and speak with our own pediatricians to act against the inanity out there.

    Like

  222. lara dunn
    May 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Lara While I sympathize with the story we do not have the hardships of 1916 to contend
    with- therefore it’s irrelevant. Diagnosis was iffy at best- it could have been smallpox.

    Like

  223. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    How many “positive” studies do they have to site to get a drug/vaccine approved? Are they able to cherry pick only the positive studies and bury the negative ones that show devastating side effects?

    Enough to demonstrate to the FDA’s satisfaction that the product is safe and effective. Further studies are up to the company, but government and independent groups perform or commission post-licensure studies as the need arises.

    Are they able to cherry pick only the positive studies and bury the negative ones that show devastating side effects?

    My understanding is that clinical trials must be pre-registered as part of the application process and all data must be submitted prior to licensure.

    Here is an overview.

    http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/developmentapprovalprocess/biologicslicenseapplicationsblaprocess/ucm133096.htm

    Like

  224. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    There is a pretty big difference between a smallpox rash and a measles rash, that it is pretty ridiculous to think that doctors would have gotten the diagnosis wrong.

    Google some pictures. My bet is that even you would be able to tell the difference without any training at all.

    Like

  225. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    This releases all manufacturers and administers of vaccines from all liability from any injury caused by a vaccine.

    No, it doesn’t.

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

    “The Court
    of Federal Claims must review objections to the special
    master’s decision and enter final judgment under a similarly tight statutory deadline.15

    At that point, a claimant
    has two options: to accept the court’s judgment and forgo a
    traditional tort suit for damages, or to reject the judgment
    and seek tort relief from the vaccine manufacturer.16”

    Like

  226. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    @mike – but we don’t have to. We have decades of clinical research, large scale studies, and continued survellience to know that the current recommended schedule is safe – and a fully articulated list of potential side-effects as well, which are all occur much less often (by a magnitude or more) than the very serious side-effects of the actual diseases themselves.

    And I notice that neither you or vetridani can refute the actual science posted, so I think that alone proves our point and negates your own.

    Like

  227. lara dunn
    May 10, 2012 at 6:57 pm
  228. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Scientifically illiterate, was the statement. The quite sane and accurate statement.

    Like

  229. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    And while you are learning about fallacies, you can add this one too: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    Like

  230. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm
  231. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Try actual pictures instead of cartoons, lara.

    Smallpox: http://phil.cdc.gov/phil/details.asp
    Measles: http://phil.cdc.gov/phil/details.asp

    Like

  232. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    How have I been aggressive? I am not the one who is shouting with all caps. I have been posting studies and asking questions, questions no one seems to want to answer.

    I used to be an engineer, but my first born had complications. He then had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease, and is still disabled. Add to that he will be having open heart surgery in two weeks for genetic heart issues. I have spent the last two decades dealing with his therapy, doctors appointments and hospital stays. Do you have a problem with a parent trying to keep a medically fragile child healthy?

    So tell me, exactly how much more money does it cost a national health system to provide two MMR doses to each child versus treating the thousands who need hospital care when they get measles? Please be sure to include the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed articles to support your statements. For example:

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    Like

  233. Autismum
    May 10, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    so speaks Thingy who implied that kids with autism are filthy over on Respectful Insolence. How ya doin’ everyone’s most pitied troll?

    Like

  234. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Sorry, the links didn’t work. I’ll try again:

    Smallpox: http://phil.cdc.gov/PHIL_Images/12290/12290_lores.jpg
    Measles: http://phil.cdc.gov/PHIL_Images/10146/10146_lores.jpg

    Like

  235. May 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Th1Th2 :
    Try the varicella vaccine. The vaccine, in and of itself, causes primary varicella infection which would later result to shingles later in life. Shot of prevention? A big NO. Infection promoter? YES!

    Actually, many people are thinking that people who are vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine will be less likely to get shingles later in life vs. people who get a natural chicken pox infection.

    Like

  236. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Like the Th1Th2 troll, Mr. Fryer just makes stuff up. It is best to just ask him for citations, which he never has.

    Like

  237. lilady
    May 10, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    @ Mike Hunt: I’m a recently retired public health nurse. I worked at a large country health department and I investigated cases of vaccine preventable diseases. I know only too well what the human costs of these diseases are. Take a look at this website to see how young children were affected with invasive Hib disease, before the vaccine was developed and licensed. See the photo of the infant’s gangrenous hand…it was amputated right after the photo was taken:

    http://www.immunize.org/photos/hib-photos.asp

    Why has the incidence of invasive Hib disease decreased dramatically, since Hib vaccine was licensed and available, Mike? (Please provide citations)

    I also have a “personal interest” about providing vaccines to children. My cousin was left with lifelong neurological neurological sequelae due to measles encephalitis; my childhood chum died of polio a few years before vaccines were developed to prevent these diseases and to provide life-long immunity.

    Am I a *pharma shill*, Mike? I worked as a public health nurse because I believed then…and still believe…that all children, even those whose parents don’t have medical insurance coverage, deserve to have good preventive health care:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/default.htm

    BTW Mike, I could have worked in a hospital as an ICN (Infection Control Nurse) and received much more compensation. I chose public health nursing…perhaps because I care for the unserved and underserved members of our society.

    Like

  238. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    lillady, my Uncle was just like you… except he was a doctor, and he said the vaccines were BS. Thanks your input though…Oh, using the CDC as a source for info is LAUGHABLE… Come on, let’s get real here.

    Like

  239. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    You should check out from your local library 1491. It is fascinating, especially about the effect of European diseases on the native population, and how that created other issues in both the environment and on European attitudes towards the American continent.

    Like

  240. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    What would you suggest as a credible source, Mike?

    Like

  241. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Lawerence I said from the get go, I’m not here to debate vaccines because I don;t know enough about them. I want to help other people understand that people like you and Kelly are paid to do what you’re doing. You aren’t here for free and you don’t care about anyone. I posted the link to the hasbara manual because you people are using similar tactics in your arguments. The parents that aren’t being trained paid should know what you’re about so they don’t get discouraged. Once you realize how debates work and understand the money and players, everything becomes obvious. Obviously drug companies want to make money. Obviously they don’t want to get sued. Obviously they can well afford to pay people to spread propaganda and protect themselves. This is all obvious stuff. I can see right through you people, and i don’t need to know anything about vaccines to do it. Hopefully the people that really care understand your tactics and they’ll beat you at your own game i.e. berating people, framing the debate, always using words like WE and US (like you’re important and owed an explanation) i.e. “tell US” “WE have peer reviewed studies” how the “expert opinion” thing works (the experts are well paid)it goes on and on… so do you believe in Santa too?

    PS lawerence, you and your could never tell me what to do to my kids, that’s why i really don’t care what you think. What can you do about it? Nothing…so go ahead, waste time doing this BS or get paid to do it… it’s irrelevant to me and my decision making process.
    BTW Do you inject other foreign substances into your body?

    Like

  242. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    I don’t want to be Mike Hunt anymore… call me Ben Dover…
    NOW GET ME THAT VACCINE! LOL

    Like

  243. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Mr. Hunt, I am going to go on the assumption that you have an open mind and are willing to learn. Here are some reading suggestions that I think you might enjoy:

    Protecting America’s Health: The FDA, Business, and One Hundred Years of Regulation by Philip Hilts

    The Cutter Incident by Paul Offit

    Pox: An American History by Michael Willrich

    They include all of information, including the warts, on the history of vaccines, drugs and regulation.

    Like

  244. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    I want to help other people understand that people like you and Kelly are paid to do what you’re doing. You aren’t here for free and you don’t care about anyone.

    What is your evidence?

    Like

  245. May 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Calvina, can you tell me the number of cases of measles in 1960? How many deaths? Surely it is in the era of modern medicine, and a standard of care similar to non-vaxing mothers of today. If measles is such a mild disease, how do you explain the 1960 rates of disease and death?

    And I’ve been told that vaccine-refusing parents are very well educated about vaccines, so it should be easy to find the answers to my first two questions. i am a proponent of vaccines without an advanced degree in any health field, and I know where to find the information.

    Like

  246. Kate
    May 10, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    “I saw that you asked which vaccines go into the blood. Most of them do, except for vaccines like Flumist or the rotavirus vaccine, or the old oral polio vaccine. They are injected into the muscle, and the millions of capillaries in the muscle quickly transport it into the blood. You know that. And then the immune system reacts to it. I know you guys like to dispute the phrase “injected directly into the bloodstream,” so I’ll give you that, but you know that it’s the same difference, the vaccine would not work if it did not got very quickly from the muscle or blood in the capillaries to the bloodstream at large.”

    Cia – so what do you think happens when you injest something? You do realize that the small intestines are also highly vascularized, to facilitate transport of the nutrients from the epithelium to the blood.

    Like

  247. Kate
    May 10, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    *ingest

    Like

  248. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    Chris, evidence? They argue just the same way that pro Israel people argue. Read the hasbara manual… and not for nothing, let them prove that they aren’t.
    Where’s their evidence? See how that works slick? You don’t have the upper hand, you simply have the government and big pharma on your side. That means NOTHING to any free thinker.That’s what people need to learn when they deal with you people. Your upper hand is imaginary. It appears the way it does because you’re all well versed in hasbara by the drug companies that pay you. SHOW ME EVIDENCE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE. Like post your **** paycheck!n :>)

    Like

  249. May 10, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Jessica Montero wrote

    I think that vaccination is a serious choice that each family needs to make for themselves.

    Yes, Jessica, when you decide to vaccinate your child, that is a decision you are making for your child and your family.

    But when you decide to refuse one or all vaccines, that’s a decision you are making for your child AND others with whom your child comes in contact.

    We’ve seen this again and again and again. Let’s take the San Diego measles outbreak. One family (let’s call them the Moores) decided not to vaccinate, went to Europe, acquired a measles infection, and came home, exposing hundreds of people. Some of the children did not acquire the disease, but had to be quarantined anyway.

    I talked to one of those families, I’ll call them the Lees. The dollar cost to the Lees family of the Moores’ decision not to vaccinate was about $2,400– the tuition and childcare fees they had paid, and lost because their children (too young to be vaccinated) had to be quarantined.

    The Lees had no recourse.

    Now do you see, by this little example, why your decision not to vaccinate can affect others?

    Like

  250. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    I want evidence that you people aren’t paid by big pharma…
    I say you DO get paid!
    PROVE you don’t!
    See how absurd that is? But it’s effective in that it keeps everything spinning round and round…which is what you folks like… it’s your jobs after all.

    Like

  251. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    @mike -thank you for confirming what I thought of your name in the first place. I believe you must be very familiar with foreign substances yourself.

    So much for civilized debate mike. As much as you don’t care, at least enough of us do to take the time to defend general health, as opposed to those who feel the need to spread lies and misinformation.

    I recommend you read “The Great Derangement” by Matt Tabibi, it explains why fringers like yourself feel the need to gravitate to extreme fringe ideologies and conspiracy theories.

    Like

  252. May 10, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    James Longfellow wrote

    A question for all you sheople who never question authority and blindly follow the advice of your vaccine and sick care profiteer lining your kids up for their toxic injection.

    Just a friendly word of advice, Mr. Longfellow: insults, invective, and untruth really undermine your credibility.

    Like

  253. May 10, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    James Longfellow wrote

    Thimerosal is still contained in many vaccines.

    The squalene being used in vaccines is from deep sea sharks.

    You made these assertions without a shred of evidence. Prove them, or you are just throwing up liest to see what sticks.

    and injecting it into the bloodstream

    No vaccine is ever administered IV. This shows your ignorance AND your ability to copy and paste without critical thought.

    Like

  254. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    @mike – just like the theory that “Big Pharma” is encouraging the anti-vaccine groups, since they stand to make more money treating those infected by the return of vaccine-preventable diseases then they do in preventing them.

    Like

  255. Kate
    May 10, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Strawman much? It can’t be that difficult to provide your source, Th1Th2. While you’re at it, please provide a source showing that getting the wild chicken pox virus won’t contribute to getting shingles later on in life.

    Like

  256. May 10, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    A minor point, Vetridani, but if you are going to copy and paste huge blocks of text it would be appreciated if you’d learn how to edit out line breaks.

    You might read and think while you are doing so, and learn something.

    Like

  257. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    lol sure larry, whatever you say champ…typical response from a typical know it all…
    I recommend you vote for Ron Paul, then the stiffs you’re getting info from won’t exist anymore and you can get on with your existence…here on a computer message board… all day… supposedly without pay… comical really…
    PS You’re the fringer pal, the world is waking up…

    Like

  258. May 10, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    I advise everyone to ignore the well-known, perseverative, anti-vaccine and anti-reality troll Th1Th2.

    Like

  259. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    That is not evidence.

    I used to work for a company that made large vehicles (had to quit being an engineer because I gave birth to a child with several medical issues). One thing that was very important to make sure vendor parts were made to certain specifications. Would you ride in a vehicle if the manufacturer just decided to be a free thinker and just went by the vendors words? Or would you prefer that the manufacturer get real evidence, and did a little quality testing just to make sure?

    Here is something you can provide evidence for: how exactly is preventing measles by having each child get two MMR doses more expensive then letting every child get measles?

    I will now provide you examples of what is considered scientifically verifiable evidence, you may that as a spring board to prove to us that vaccines are not cost effective:

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

    You say:

    You don’t have the upper hand, you simply have the government and big pharma on your side.

    Wrong, I have science and history on “my side.” And if you wish to honestly debate the issues then you need to catch up on those subjects. I have suggested three books that should help you. I could also suggest that you stay away from arguments without evidence (“Pharma Shill”), arguments from antiquity (“why are there still people if the diseases were so bad”) and arguments from authority (“my uncle was a doctor and said..”).
    .

    Like

  260. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Lawrence, where is your evidence that you are NOT paid by big pharma, I can’t take a word you say seriously until you PROVE it… :>)

    Like

  261. May 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Vetridani hauls out the hoary old hoax:

    I also have graphs showing most of these diseases were nearly eradicated before vaccines for them were introduced,

    I wonder if Vetridani’s looking at Raymond Obomsawin’s intellectual dishonesty

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/vaccines-didnt-save-us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/

    Or looking at the decline in mortality and ignoring the ongoing morbitity.

    Like

  262. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    That’s okay Mike, I never took a word you said seriously. Since I have evidence, science, and reality on my side, who gives a crap what you think.

    Like

  263. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    I miss Kelly.. I want to see her proclaim herself unpaid by “debunking” my comment that I believe she is paid… on her own… on a message board… as if it proves anything… LOL
    Seriously, I’m getting bored. Thanks for the entertainment. Anyone who seriously is looking for info, read that manual and decide if these pro vaccine people are being taught how to frame the debate or not. Everything will become clear once you read and see their patterns. Have a wonderful evening… Larry, thanks for caring so much about mankind that you sit on computer and talk about this BS all day for nothing… if you get bored you can mow my lawn for free too.

    Like

  264. May 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Vetridani wrote

    The are PLENTY of peer reviewed studies out there that site real safety issues with vaccines.

    You know, V., Chris and others have been quite generous with you, sharing citations. Surely you can do the same?

    It’s not hard, just go to each of the paper’s PubMed abstract even, and copy / paste the citation. Be sure to include the paper’s title, the citation, and the authors.

    Then we can talk.

    Like

  265. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Larry, I never debated you on vaccines champ… you people seem slightly delusional…perhaps get out of whatever room you sit in all day long and get some fresh air…BTW You have the government and big pharma on your side… nothing else

    Like

  266. May 10, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Shelly wrote

    That we now know about healthier, cleaner practices and how the body has a natural ability to protect itself when it is nourished in the correct way.

    I am often told that vaccine-refusing parents are more educated about vaccines and vaccine-preventable disease risk than vaccine-accepting families.

    Shelly, do you think that in 1960, we “knew about healthier, cleaner practices”? Do you think that in 1960s, the body was “nourished in the correct way”? *

    I’m sure it would be easy for you to tell me the number of cases of measles in 1960 and the number of deaths?

    *If the body was not “nourished in the correct way”, I do hope you will tell us when this correct way was discovered, so that we all can benefit.

    Like

  267. May 10, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    Vetridani, I wrote a long and detailed explanation on how corrupt the Hewitson monkey study was:

    I have no idea why the Hewitson macaque-vaccine “study” is being presented as news, or as meaningful. Hewitson’s team’s research (and ethics) were severely criticized from 2008 to 2010 by research scientists.

    It’s available here:

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2012/05/this-is-going-around-new-study-baby-monkeys-develop-autism-after-routine-cdc-vaccinations.html

    The short version: 20 or more monkeys lost their lives for to prove nothing.

    Like

  268. May 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Do not engage with TH – troll.

    Like

  269. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    I am in my kitchen cooking dinner (just put the cheese biscuits in the oven). Earlier I was in my kitchen doing some laundry. I did run some errands.

    From what I can tell you were posting on the blog much more than many of us. Though you seem to be working on argument from blatant assertion than actual evidence.

    Like

  270. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    I want to help other people understand that people like you and Kelly are paid to do what you’re doing. You aren’t here for free and you don’t care about anyone.

    Except this is a lie, Mike. Are you here to lie to people?

    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

    Obviously drug companies want to make money. Obviously they don’t want to get sued.

    So obviously they wouldn’t make unsafe vaccines that get aren’t recommended by government agencies and get their butts sued.

    Hopefully the people that really care understand your tactics and they’ll beat you at your own game i.e. berating people, framing the debate, always using words like WE and US (like you’re important and owed an explanation)

    But these are your tactics, Mike. You are admit you know nothing abut vaccines. You admit that you refuse to look at the evidence that supports vaccination. Your whole claim is based on some “manual” with talking points completely irrelevant to vaccines. Perhaps what you say is true for the Middle East, but we aren’t talking about the Middle East.

    I think people will see through the tactics used by anti-vaxers like Mike and the others here. It is pretty obvious which side supports their claims by evidence and which side is either misinformed or rely on logical fallacies like ad hominem.

    Like

  271. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    I say you DO get paid!

    The burden of proof is on you to support your claim. http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

    Like

  272. Lawrence
    May 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    @chris – my wife is finishing baking cookies for the kids’ teachers tomorrow. It is Teacher Appreciation Week and my wife bakes with the best of them.

    Like

  273. Mike Hunt
    May 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Immunized for Chicken Pox and still got shingles…debunked! I am my own peer reviewed study! haha!

    Like

  274. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    By mom of baby damaged by MMR:
    Ari Brown, I know you. Not personally. But you are very much like me. I once had a perfect baby girl and I was mother of the year. My husband is a pediatrician. We lived in a cute little house and had a yellow lab and everything was sunshine and rainbows. She was 2.5 years old, time to have another baby! I had to do everything by the book, everything in the right order, have the perfect healthy family. Make all the right choices, do what the doctors tell you. Doctors know everything.
    My son was born a beautiful healthy precocious child. Of course he was, he had perfect educated well-off parents, a doting big sister, he was breastfed. Once I told another mom who didn’t vaccinate that she was ill-informed and “those anti-vaccine people are nuts” etc. My husband is a pediatrician, he regularly gives vaccines- they are safe!!
    Well, on August 6 2004 my son turned 15 months old. That day he received the MMR, DTap, varicella, and prevnar vaccines. That night he screamed a sound I have never in my life heard before, he had a fever and he screamed and he screamed. He kept slamming his head into my arms and said “ow head” He screamed for 3 days straight- all day and night.
    I brought him back to his pediatrician (same practice my husband worked in at the time) who said this was NORMAL!! Normal!! I can give him tylenol to bring the fever down and reduce pain. After that 3rd day, the screaming stopped, and my son was forever gone. He had just started taking steps prior to this event. No more. No more walking, no more talking, no more sweet engaging smile and giggles, no more eating (he would still nurse thank God), no more high fives, no more morning calls from the crib “momma”. It was all replaced with chronic GI illness, eczema, and alternating between screaming and staring off to the side.

    What happened to my boy Dr. Ari Brown? YOU TELL ME!! Vaccine injury is real. On an MRI my son’s brain is “perfect”. Obviously not! He is almost 7 and he has gained many skills back like motor skills but he also stims, hand flaps and still does not speak. Not one word.
    The only thing that has helped has been biomedical treatments under the direction of a DAN! doctor. He is now not in chronic belly pain and the eczema is gone. The damage to his brain is permanent. I don’t know which of those shots did him in or maybe it was the combo? People like you don’t want to do any research on that. You want to declare the science done. What happened to my son is an event that many many many friends and family witnessed with their own eyes. They don’t appreciate being called liars by “doctors” like you. I didn’t have to tell them this story, THEY SAW IT.
    You and your people can only perpetuate this myth of “the science is in” for so long. Sadly our numbers grow every day, we add people to “our side” every day, and each child brings their passionate friends and family. I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way like I did.
    Jennifer Friesen, autism warrior mom
    Posted by: cmo | February 19, 2011 at 09:48 AM
    Speaking of regression and vaccines, I have yet to hear a single story where a parent claims that their child regressed right before they got their MMR. The story might sound something like this:
    “Thank goodness I had a regularly scheduled well-baby visit to see the ped the week after my toddler started exhibiting symptoms of being sick. I had called the doctor’s office to see if I could bring my toddler in early because he/she had a high fever and diarrhea. They said not to bother, that it was a normal response to a childhood illness and nothing to worry about. Just make sure your toddler gets lots of fluids and dose Tylenol as needed. But by the day of the regularly scheduled well-baby visit my toddler had quit making eye contact and stopped using words they had used for months. The ped suggested a possible autism diagnosis and explained that the illness had nothing to do with it, it just happens coincidentally with a childhood illness sometimes. Now let’s get the nurse in with that MMR that’s due today.”
    If the rate of autistic regression that is occuring around the time of administration of the MMR is equally distributed pre and post vaccination (as would be the case if indeed autistic regression was coincidental with MMR administration), then I believe we would have heard this story as often as we hear the stories of parents who witness regression post MMR.
    Posted by: Donna K | November 04, 2010 at 02:46 AM
    To Paul Robinson,

    Like

  275. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    The safety studies are scientific studies, Dan.

    There are active and passive surveillance systems looking for adverse reactions. You are mistaken in thinking that vaccine advocates are not concerned about adverse events.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/default.htm

    Like

  276. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    In Europe last year there was an epidemic of measles. 30,000 got it, 9 died, 16 sustained probably permanent damage. That rate is much lower than the rates in 1960, but even then measles was not considered a serious disease, but rather a rite of passage that all children went through, although it had a fatality rate of about one in a thousand then. I don’t know if the low rate in Europe last year was because the disease has continued to get milder over time, or whether crisis care in hospitals in the event of pneumonia or encephalitis is better. The MMR has a higher rate of damage caused by it. Obviously Kelly didn’t count all the autism and bowel disease it often causes in her calculus.

    Like

  277. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    The plural of anecdote is not data. Especially posts from a blog or forum.

    Like

  278. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    So, Ms. Parker is nine too small a number? Are we supposed to go back to the days when deaths from measles in the USA averaged about five hundred per year?

    So please tell us, what evidence do you have that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles? Since you consider nine deaths negligible, how many more died from the vaccine? Post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your statements.

    Like

  279. Th1Th2
    May 10, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Vincent Iannelli, MD :

    Th1Th2 :
    Try the varicella vaccine. The vaccine, in and of itself, causes primary varicella infection which would later result to shingles later in life. Shot of prevention? A big NO. Infection promoter? YES!

    Actually, many people are thinking that people who are vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine will be less likely to get shingles later in life vs. people who get a natural chicken pox infection.

    Then that will put the unvaccinated and the uninfected to be unlikely candidates for shingles since shingles would require having previously had primary varicella infection either from natural infection or primary varicella vaccination. How fortunate are the unvaccinated and uninfected for they won’t get shingles, ever.

    Now stop promoting shingles, Doc. It’s not good.

    Like

  280. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    The varicella vaccine came out in 1995. Mr. Hunt are you only eighteen years old?

    You still being in high school pretty much explains why you do not understand what “peer review” means.

    Like

  281. Karen
    May 10, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Also, Mike doesn’t seem to understand that you can’t prove a negative.

    Prove that unicorns don’t exist Mike.

    Like

  282. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Kelly, I also did not have a doctor diagnose my daughter as having autism. It’s really not hard to do. You read a checklist of symptoms, and count how many you check off in three different categories. Do you think I can’t read lists and check things off? I took her to the public school and told them she had autism, they tested her and arrived at that conclusion themselves. A therapist at a rehabilitation center told me when she was twenty months old that she suspected she had autism. I had books with checklists of developmental skills, I already knew every month of the way that she was way behind on waving, pointing, babbling, and talking. I need a doctor to confirm that? Are you serious? A friend urged me many times to take her to a doctor, and I said, what for? Thousands of dollars for him to pontificate and tell me she had very deficient communication and social skills, and was seriously developmentally delayed in many areas? No way! Autism resource specialists at the public schools have observed her and written up reports on her, she’s in a special autism class now. Do you think the school system would be spending big bucks on her if they didn’t believe she had autism? What difference would it have made if I had taken her to a doctor who assured me she was normal, and did not have autism? Just can’t converse, socialize, reason normally, process auditory stimuli, and perseverates a lot. Perfectly normal. Do you think I need a doctor to tell me that constant screaming for four days and nights starting a few days after the hep-B vaccine followed by the symptoms of autism add up to vaccine-induced encephalitis, the brain damage from which caused autism? Do I need a doctor to tell me that chills and fever add up to flu? Constant blowing my nose for weeks after a cold add up to sinusitis? I need a doctor for that? They said on the news a few days ago that some people here were sick from e-coli food poisoning, and that although a doctor couldn’t do anything to help them, it was very important to be monitored by a doctor. Ha, ha, ha. Of course they’d like that, $160 per ten-minute office visit, plus cost of tests to make sure your diarrhea and vomiting are from e-coli and not something they were equally unable to treat. Of course they would like me to think I need them, so they can shake me down for several hundred dollars minimum. Doctors are not the priests of my religion, and I honestly don’t think many of them know much of anything. You haven’t gotten that this is a mojr social rebellion?

    Like

  283. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    Kelly,
    Do you think that people don’t get encephalitis in places where they don’t have doctors? Do doctors invoke diseases at their pleasure? Everyone knows that there are a lot more cases of encephalitis and other vaccine reactions than we dream of, even the FDA says that they are underreported, about 90% are estimated to be unreported. Do these unreported cases not even exist because no doctor has signed off on them?

    Like

  284. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    He claims to have received the varicella vaccine, which has only been available in the USA for seventeen years. Since you must be over age one to get it, he may be younger than eighteen.

    Being in high school kind of explains much of his debating style.

    Like

  285. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    You do not know that. The very first vaccine, the hep-B, has more than eight times the daily “approved” maximum of aluminum in it. The precipitous climb in autism started in 1990. The MMR’s mumps component was quadrupled in 1990, the hep-B at birth began in 1991. Who are you to say that there’s no connection between the extremely high aluminum infants are routinely injected with, and the parallel extremely high increase in autism and other syndromes in newborns? If the aluminum “safe” limit means anything, then it should only be expected that grossly exceeding it in millions of babies must come with a high price.

    Like

  286. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Kelly, I also did not have a doctor diagnose my daughter as having autism…What difference would it have made if I had taken her to a doctor who assured me she was normal, and did not have autism?

    Well, this is an interesting revelation. So now we find out that cia’s daughter doesn’t even have autism. It is just something cia made up so she could getting special funding. First cia claims her daughter’s autism is a “vaccine-injury” and now she tells us that the child hasn’t even been diagnosed with autism.

    That is the thing about liars. Sooner or later the truth comes out.

    Like

  287. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Kelly,
    I guess you know that the Russian roulette allusion comes from the T.V. news program on 60 Minutes or something in the early 1980’s about how parents were playing Russian roulette when they let their kids get the DPT shot, which caused death, autism, seizure disorders, or asthma in millions? And that shot at least gave them fairly reliable protection from pertussis, unlike the DTaP, not very effective but very dangerous.

    Like

  288. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    Do you know how much it costs to care for and raise a vaccine-damaged child? $2,400 is NOTHING! Does the herd you want me to protect chip in with helping me raise my daughter? I’m going to have to tell you that no, it doesn’t. I’m in this alone. The other parents and children around, at school, at the park, at girl scouts, shun my daughter and make fun of her. Any vaccine decisions I make are going to be based on what’s best for my daughter, and I’ll let other parents make their own decisions, although I”ll tell them about my experience and what I’ve learned to help them profit by our sorrow.

    Like

  289. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    Chris,
    What did you mean about the bug bites and skinning your knee? Do you think that witches’ brew of chemicals and pathogens on James’ vaccine ingredient list is transmitted by mosquitoes or mixed in your ordinary dirt?

    Like

  290. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    He’s nicely satirizing the way antivaxers actually approach the issue. “Dozens of studies showing no connection between the MMR and autism? Well, my child got the MMR and then some indeterminate time later got autism… studies debunked!”

    Like

  291. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    Pertussis is a respiratory disease transmitted by coughing. Anyone of any socioeconomic group can get it or any one of the other respiratory diseases, like measles. I took my baby to a La Leche League meeting in January 2001, ten days later she seemed to have a cold, ten days after that she started the alarming ten coughs to a breath cough, coughing up sheets of mucus at the end of each fit. And gave it to me. It seems probably that she caught it at the meeting. She coughed for over a month, and then got well. I didn’t hear about any child from that group being hospitalized or dying from whooping cough, so I assume that whoever gave it to her and possibly to others got well without incident just as we did. 80-90% of those who get and transmit it during epidemics have been appropriately vaccinated, as my daughter had been (but wouldn’t be if I had it to do over again.) I’m glad now that we went through it, and now have long-lasting immunity. You should be glad too, as now we have no capacity to transmit pertussis to vulnerable infants, as we now have reliable natural immunity.
    My daughter has never gotten a water-borne disease like those that could be transmitted by feces, and in a country with purified water and modern sewage systems, she is and would have been unlikely to catch a disease like cholera or typhoid.

    Like

  292. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    Speaking of regression and vaccines, I have yet to hear a single story where a parent claims that their child regressed right before they got their MMR.

    Since the typical age of regressive autism is between 15 and 30 months, and the MMR is recommended between 12 and 15 months, regression prior to MMR is statistically less likely. It would not, in fact, be “equally distributed” as you claim.

    However, there is plenty of evidence of regressive autism in children who have not received the MMR at all.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865547

    “During the period of MMR usage no significant difference was found in the incidence of regression between MMR-vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children.”

    Like

  293. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    So now you see how proper nutrition and sanitation will not protect children from these diseases. Your own child go sick even though you were doing every thing right.

    Unfortunately, she suffered but she did not gain long-lasting immunity. Natural immunity to pertussis wanes in 4 to 20 years and she could act as a reservoir just like when artificial immunity wanes in the vaccinated. That is why the booster is so important to prevent waning immunity.

    Like

  294. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    In addition, you have to consider reporting bias. A person whose child regressed into autism prior to the MMR would not believe that the MMR cause their child’s autism. They would have less impetus to spread their child’s medical history around for the world to see, in contrast to those who passionately, if erroneously, believe their children are damaged. And you would be unlikely to read their story on the kinds of websites you frequent as well.

    Like

  295. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    Measles has not been a big killer in over a hundred years. When I was a child, all children got measles, including me, and no one worried about it. Age of Autism had an article last year with clips from Arthur cartoons from the ’80s and Flintstones shows from the ’60s in which characters got measles, and it was treated as an everyday event. I’ve seen that one in a thousand died of it in 1960, but I know that previously healthy, well-nourished children who were well cared for were sick for a couple of weeks and then got well. In most cases the one in a thousand who died was not previously healthy.

    Like

  296. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    In most cases the one in a thousand who died was not previously healthy.

    Citation needed cia.

    Like

  297. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Kelly,
    I don’t really care. I’ve talked about it with my friends, you answer within five minutes of any post, you evidently do this full-time. I don’t know why you don’t feel any concern for those who are vaccine-damaged, that seems strange to me if you’re not paid for your opinions. With all the information available now, it seems strange to me that you should hold vaccines in such veneration, but ultimately, I really don’t care. You might consider, though, if you’re really promoting the vaccine cause in treating people so badly, I think it turns most people off, and would make them question your cause as well.

    Like

  298. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    I’ve traced hundreds of my ancestors back to the year 1000 on ancestry.com. Most of them lived at least to the age of sixty and a lot of them to 90. Hundreds and hundreds of them, none of them vaccinated, at least the ones born before the nineteenth century. A healthy immune system and good nutrition have always allowed most people who enjoyed both to live to a ripe old age. Survival of the fittest, in the sense that people who didn’t have a healthy immune system usually died before they reproduced, allowed only the healthiest genetic stock to reproduce, producing generally very healthy offspring. Now, of course, all bets are off in our modern sick and impaired world.

    Like

  299. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    And isn’t it interesting that, although there has never been a vaccine for the plague of the Black Death, it disappeared anyway? It’s still found sporadically, but in very very low numbers. Scarlet fever just disappeared for some reason without vaccines, English sweating sickness, leprosy.
    Smart anti-vaxers, who prefer to let our immune systems hone their skills on diseases like measles, to have better defense mechanisms for the rest of our lives. People who haven’t gotten diseases like measles, mumps, chickenpox, and so on have higher rates of cancer and other chronic diseases later in life.

    Like

  300. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    cia, you are known to lie in your posts here and now you state that you don’t care to post the truth. You just want to make up whatever and don’t care to provide evidence to support your claims. I think your dishonesty turns people off. I’m just pointing out the inaccuracies of your posts.

    You are the one that must do this full-time, cia, because I’m simply responding to you when I have a moment here and there. You post the same lies over and over. It really doesn’t take much time to re-type a response that has been typed a thousand times before. I think it is important not to let you have free rein to mislead parents down a dangerous path. I don’t share my opinion on vaccines. I just counter your uninformed opinion so that others can make an informed choice. I’m not the only one that corrects you.

    I do feel concern for those that are vaccine-damaged. I don’t feel concern for people that lie about vaccine-damage in an attempt to seek sympathy and to mislead others like yourself.

    The “information” that you post is lies, cia. It surprises you that I’m not swayed by this misinformation when I know that you are lying? You think I should just swallow your BS without question? You think everyone should?

    I don’t really care if you think I’m a pharma shill or not, because every time you post it, it weakens your credibility. If all you have to support your case is to call me false names, then your argument isn’t very well informed and you demonstrate yourself to be a liar each and every time. I don’t think parents want to risk their child’s health on the advice of a liar, do you cia?

    Like

  301. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    Lawrence,
    Do you want me to invite you to be my guest at ancestry.com? You can see records of thousands of my ancestors who lived to over sixty. It surprises me when I find a rare one who died below the age of thirty, and I think for a while about what might have happened to him. It’s a modern myth that people in earlier times all died young. After the Industrial Age began and there were hundreds of thousands of poor laborers crowded together in big cities, with poor nutrition, poor sanitation, forced to constantly work, that’s where you had large numbers dropping like flies before the age of thirty, not before that, except in situations of war, pestilence, or famine (also common, but still the exception rather than the rule). Have you heard about the biblical four score and ten? (i.e. 70)

    Like

  302. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Not really that interesting, cia. The plague is transmitted from an animal reservoir by fleas. When we got rid of the fleas, we got rid of the plague.

    There are still endemic cases in the US, but the incidence rate is low because few people encounter the environmental reservoir.

    Scarlet fever is still around, cia. Scarlet fever is caused by a toxin-producing strain of group A streptococci. The dianosis is more frequently strep throat. The treatment of strep throat with antibiotics prevents the appearance of the rash.

    The price of this supposedly “better defense mechanisms” is suffering from a disease and increased risk of permanent disability and death. I don’t think that is the definition of “smart” when a safer alternative is available.

    People who haven’t gotten diseases like measles, mumps, chickenpox, and so on have higher rates of cancer and other chronic diseases later in life.

    citation needed, cia because you admitted you like to make stuff up.

    Like

  303. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    This doesn’t match with what you told us earlier about how so many of your family members are sickly from “vaccine injuries”.

    Like

  304. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    I love Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel, he talks about how the Indians didn’t have the immune defenses the Europeans did, because the Europeans had lived in close proximity to farm animals for thousands of years, got their diseases, their diseases evolved into ours, and the conquistadores brought the germs, but it was the Indians who had never had to struggle with infectious disease before who succumbed by the millions. It was incredibly tragic. The Indians only had domesticated dogs, the Muscovy duck in northern South America, the turkey, the llama/alpaca, and the guinea pig. It’s a real boon to catch communicable diseases as children and develop a strong, skilled immune system already familiar with many germs. Artificial vaccine immunity is not at all the same thing.

    Like

  305. Kate
    May 10, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Cia,

    It is vital for your child to be screened by specially trained physicians and/or psychologists when you suspect that a child has autism or show autism- like qualities. First, early intervention is key to improving learning, communication and social skills. Second, a diagnosis will help to lay out the best plan forward for your child’s future – essentially matching your child to the best program for them, based on his or her specific diagnosis.

    I am curious, you stated that your child showed signs of autism since she was four days old, what were those signs? And why did you not seek out early intervention?

    Like

  306. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    Thanks, Mike, I appreciate your input. These people try to reduce people whose children have been vaccine-damaged to tears, hoping to drive them and their uncomfortable true stories away, so they can indoctrinate the unwary in peace. They berated and insulted the mother of a child autistic by vaccine, and told her repeatedly that she was a lousy excuse for a mother, because she did not embrace his autism, but was angry that the vaccine people had caused it and ruined his life. Of course they’ve done that dozens of times, but that mother sticks in my mind. Miserable excuses for human beings.

    Like

  307. Lara Lohne
    May 10, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    cia parker :
    Do you know how much it costs to care for and raise a vaccine-damaged child? $2,400 is NOTHING! Does the herd you want me to protect chip in with helping me raise my daughter? I

    Of course they do. Where do you think those “big buck” your school is spending to educate your daughter comes from, the money fairy? No, it’s tax payer dollars which come from ‘the herd’ since there are by far more people who are vaccinated then not. So you aren’t as alone in this as you would like everyone to believe you are. And if your daughter was not diagnosed by a panel of autism specialists (Developmental pediatrician, developmental child psychiatrist, speech and language pathologist, occupational therapist, hearing specialist and behavioral specialist) and given a medical diagnosis of autism, then all she actually has is an educational label of autism, which isn’t the same thing at all. Also, if your daughter is getting SSI payments, that also comes from ‘the herd’ AKA: tax payer dollars and I’m sure that support helps your household out tremendously. Remember, you don’t speak for every parent of a child with autism, if your daughter does in fact have autism, which I’m beginning to doubt.

    Like

  308. cia parker
    May 10, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    But stories are what are in the driver’s seat of this movement, and the stories told now by the millions of the vaccine damage suffered by children that everyone knows now are what are going to bring this tragic blip in human history of vaccine mania to a close. Morgan tells about her son getting autism and bowel disease four days after the MMR, you inveigh that there’s no proof that that’s what caused it! Whitney decides maybe she won’t get it for her baby, because she sees Morgan’s impaired child, and just doesn’t want to take the chance. You know that’s what’s happening, and going on and on about how this rise in chronic diseases is strange, and no one has any idea of what’s causing it, but it’s certainly not vaccines! just rings very very hollow.

    Like

  309. kathy
    May 10, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    Cia, I have read all of those and I still don’t buy into the idea that there is some conspiracy going on. And doctors do know a great deal about vaccines. Just because they do not agree with your take that vaccines are damaged or cause MS or autism, does not mean they don’t know much. It means they know more than you do!

    Like

  310. kathy
    May 10, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    Vaccines don’t have any toxic ingredients. None of the ingredients in vaccines are toxic in the amounts in vaccines. Did you know your own body makes formaldehyde naturally? That is not toxic, that is natural. Now, if you were an embalmer, you might be exposed to too much formaldehyde to be healthy. But, the amount in vaccines? Not toxic. And I could go on and on about all other other ingredients. It is completely naive and ignorant to believe vaccines are toxic when they absolutely are not. And yes I know what is in vaccines. Yes I know what I am talking about. Yes I can cite safety studies and toxicity information.

    Like

  311. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    the stories told now by the millions

    Who counted those stories? How do you know they are true?

    Like

  312. Kate
    May 10, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    For the topic of the post: Thank you so much, Jessica, for sharing your story. We are so blessed to live in a time when diseases like the measles can be easily prevented by vaccines. Since there really is no treatment for diseases such as these, the only thing we can do is prevent.

    I, for one, am terrified of anti-vaxers spreading their misinformation and pseudoscience so far and wide that we return to this time of the past, when parents had 10+ children because they most likely would lose one to a VPD.

    Like

  313. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    Why should anyone believe you, since you just make stuff up.

    Like

  314. Kelly
    May 10, 2012 at 11:02 pm

    Cia, your story is not true. You and your daughter are not vaccine injured. You have told us yourself that you self-diagnosed your daughter.

    You continually make up stories for your own gratification. These stories have the potential to mislead others into putting their children in harm’s way. We are not evil people for correcting your misinformation and warning others about your lies.

    Like

  315. kathy
    May 10, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Oh lord, I hope your congressman has more sense than to attend a Safe Minds meeting! I hope he or she reads actual science instead of listening stories. Stories are interesting but until actual medical evidence is used to verify claims, they are just heresay or rumor.

    Like

  316. Stephen
    May 10, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Funny though, I know more kids who have gotten sick (with measles too) who have been vaccinated for said disease. Care to explain that?

    Like

  317. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    That you are telling an anecdote that we cannot verify.

    Like

  318. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    Sure. You, like all humans, perceive only a small sliver of the entirety of reality and interperet it through your own biases.

    However, the objective facts make it clear that measles is far more common in the unvaccinated.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6115a1.htm

    Like

  319. CanadianNurse
    May 10, 2012 at 11:28 pm

    cia parker :
    Do you think I need a doctor to tell me that constant screaming for four days and nights starting a few days after the hep-B vaccine followed by the symptoms of autism add up to vaccine-induced encephalitis, the brain damage from which caused autism?

    I think you need a physician to correct some of your misconceptions here.
    Do you understand what encephalitis is? If your child had encephalitis severely enough to cause the kind of brain damage that you’re insinuating she has (with numerous cognitive delays) then the child would have been deathly ill and in need of PICU care.

    Permanent brain damage only occurs with severe cases of encephalitis.
    Signs and symptoms of severe encephalitis include:

    Severe headache
    Fever
    Altered consciousness
    Confusion or agitation
    Personality changes
    Seizures
    Loss of sensation or paralysis in certain areas of the body
    Muscle weakness
    Hallucinations
    Double vision
    Perception of foul smells
    Problems with speech or hearing
    Loss of consciousness

    Any parent in their right mind would take their child to a DOCTOR if these symptoms arose in their child.

    So, if your kid does have ASD secondary to vaccine-induced encephalitis, can you explain how she managed to live without the emergent care required for severe encephalitis?

    Like

  320. Stephen
    May 10, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    Just a quick question: What flavor is the Kool-Aid?

    After having two (yes, two) children injured by vaccinations, I tend to lean more towards the ‘educate before you vaccinate camp.’ Know the risks as well (and yes there are possible adverse reactions). How do I know they were injured you ask? Well according to the rulings we got back from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Court, they were injured. Oh yeah, we also didn’t get any compensation because they also ruled that we filed outside the 3 year statute of limitations (how convenient).

    As for saving money,..well we would have saved ourselves about $521,000.00 (so far) had we not had our children vaccinated.

    So in the end, you can believe what you want, but don’t try to feed us tripe and tell us it’s filet mignon.

    Like

  321. Stephen
    May 10, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Why do I care if ‘you’ can’t verify it. I’ve seen it happen. And yet, if you truly believe that vaccines work,…why is it that vaccinated people still get diseases they have been vaccinated against?

    After having two of my own children injured by vaccines, I think I have a pretty good leg to stand on when talking about this. (And yes I’ve got the documents from the VICP-Court Ruling that states that they were injured,…so I would say it’s substantiated.)

    Like

  322. Nathan
    May 10, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    I see. Putting aside the fact that legal proceedings do not constitute proof of injury, I’m curious. Since you believe the vaccine court, which stated your child is vaccine injured, do you also believe that the thousands of families that were part of the Autism Omnibus Proceedings were not vaccine injured?

    Like

  323. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Again, we just have your anecdote. Of the several thousand claims to the Vaccine Court that did file early enough they chose their best cases to test in the Autism Omnibus Proceedings. None of them proved up to 50% plus a feather that the vaccines caused autism. Here is a list of resources and links to those proceedings.

    At least you had a legal recourse. Our child was injured from an actual disease before it could be prevented with a vaccine.

    Still you need to prove that the MMR vaccine is worse than measles with real data, not your stories. Plus it also prevents rubella, and congenital rubella syndrome is a known cause of autism. It actually prevents autism.

    And since the MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971 in the USA, you should also tell us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers published before 1997 that show autism increased suddenly in the 1970s.

    Like

  324. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    (And yes I’ve got the documents from the VICP-Court Ruling that states that they were injured,…so I would say it’s substantiated.)

    It does not have to be your ruling, but to verify what you said actually happened on anyone, just post the link to the ruling from http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/search_vaccine .

    Like

  325. Chris
    May 10, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Mucked up quote… Stephen, just find one claim where the court said the vaccines caused the harm but it was too late.

    Like

  326. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 12:03 am

    But stories are what are in the driver’s seat of this movement

    Yes, but they are not in the driver’s seat of reality, as they are subject to great bias. What is not in any seat of the entire triple decker bus of the movement is SCIENCE.

    and the stories told now by the millions of the vaccine damage suffered by children that everyone knows now

    You are making numbers up again. Oh, and did I tell you that there are millions of studies showing vaccines don’t cause autism? No, because I don’t make numbers up. There are only dozens.

    Morgan tells about her son getting autism and bowel disease four days after the MMR, you inveigh that there’s no proof that that’s what caused it!

    I would actually argue that there is a large amount of evidence that the vaccine didn’t cause it.

    You know that’s what’s happening, and going on and on about how this rise in chronic diseases is strange, and no one has any idea of what’s causing it, but it’s certainly not vaccines! just rings very very hollow

    You are mistaken on two counts. One, that it is “hollow” to say that X does not cause Y when dozens of studies show that X does not cause Y, even if you do not know what causes Y. Indeed, it is hollow to say that X causes Y against that much evidence to the contrary.

    Second, that “no one has any idea” what is causing Y.

    Like

  327. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Why do I care if ‘you’ can’t verify it.

    I’m sure you don’t. But you asked us to explain your situation. So we naturally care if we can even verify it.

    Like

  328. Patricia
    May 11, 2012 at 12:10 am

    For the best professional information available, along with personal testimonies in comments, go to http://www.Vactruth.com Certainly gave me a thorough education on the dangers of vaccines.

    Like

  329. Jesi
    May 11, 2012 at 12:13 am

    Stephen :
    Funny though, I know more kids who have gotten sick (with measles too) who have been vaccinated for said disease. Care to explain that?

    Some vaccines do not give indefinite protection. Sometimes you need boosters. After my second child I had a rubella booster though I had my MMR as a child. I didn’t have the booster after my first child because I was still protected then. There’s this thing called a titre that a doctor can draw to determine immunity to a disease. Immunity is achieved either through vaccine or through actually contracting the disease. My personal preference for my children is that they do not have to deal with the life-threatening complications that arise from measles, whooping cough, rotavirus, and multiple others. If I can give them that immunity without having to put them through that, then YAY!

    Like

  330. Stephen
    May 11, 2012 at 12:20 am

    Chris, you do know that the link you provided does not provide a link to the actual ruling that the parents receive don’t you? Those rulings we recieve have stamps on them that say ‘not for publication.’

    As for,..’Stephen, just find one claim where the court said the vaccines caused the harm but it was too late?’ Well, I have two in my file cabinet that have (summed up) ‘injured, but filed past the statute of limitations.’ And I do believe that is what you meant,….filed too late.

    It’s tough to file on time when every pediatrician tells you that there is nothing wrong with your son,..he is only delayed. Then when they finally tell you that there ‘is’ something wrong,..then it’s too late. It took another two years before we ever found out about the VICP because no is there to help you.

    So you can continue to not believe if you want,…but I’ve been living with it for quite some time.

    Like

  331. gattarian
    May 11, 2012 at 12:35 am

    cia – “Do you think I can’t read lists and check things off?”

    Given your past history of utter failure to understand even very basic facts, I do think this, yes.

    Like

  332. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 12:36 am

    Cia, I have to say, what you have just written is beyond concerning. There is an ocean of difference between self-diagnosing a usually self-limiting illness like influenza, and diagnosing autism in your own daughter. I don’t doubt your ability to “read lists and check things off,” but I doubt your ability to do so objectively. But moreover, an autism diagnosis is not a simple matter of checking boxes. Autism is not just a binary you-have-it-or-you-don’t diagnosis by any doctor – it requires a great deal of evaluation by a multidisciplinary team to identify where on the spectrum the child may be, what her strengths and challenges are specifically, and what interventions will provide the child with the best quality of life. You indicate concern that the doctor will say your child does not cause autism, but even if that is the case, assessment can still provide information critical to making sure she is as successful as possible

    Perhaps won’t see eye-to-eye on this blog ever, but please, put aside the vaccine issue and have your child evaluated by a team that specializes in developmental evaluation and interventions.

    Like

  333. gattarian
    May 11, 2012 at 12:37 am

    Jessica – “In a perfect world vaccines would be 100% effective and come without side effects”

    This is a perfect example of how your anti vaccination position has harmed your imagination. In a perfect world THERE WOULD BE NO DISEASE!

    Like

  334. gattarian
    May 11, 2012 at 12:38 am

    James – “A question for all you sheople who never question authority and blindly follow the advice of your vaccine and sick care profiteer lining your kids up for their toxic injection.”

    I did not read the rest of your post as there are no qualifying people here. Please provide evidence that any person posting here belongs to the group you describe.

    Like

  335. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 12:39 am

    I’m curious to what the alleged injury was that affected two children (are they twins?), yet “every pediatrician tells you that there is nothing wrong with your son,..he is only delayed.”

    Also, why would vaccine court go through the expense of a trial to show that the vaccine caused the injury just to dismiss the claim because it wasn’t filed within the correct time frame?

    The lack of consistency in Stephen’s story (in one post there are two children injured, but only one child is referred to upon further explanation) and questions about the procedure makes me strongly doubt the veracity of Stephen’s story.

    I suspect that the court documents say ‘alleged injured, but filed past the statute of limitations.’ and Stephen is leaving off the “alleged” part to make his story sound more convincing as evidence of vaccine injury.

    Like

  336. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 12:48 am

    Someone else tried to use this a reference earlier today and it was completely discredited. I’m so sorry that you were duped by this misinformation, Patricia. The term “truth” in the website title certainly is misleading. Nice people think that people proclaiming to be telling the truth, actually would. Unfortunately, there is no reliable information on that site.

    Here is a link to reliable information of vaccines: http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

    Like

  337. May 11, 2012 at 12:56 am

    Vactruth.com was founded and run by Jeffry John Aufderheide, a man who believes that his child was vaccine-injured.

    I searched PubMed for anything by Jeffry John Aufderheide, and found nothing.

    If you want balanced factual information from an unbiased source, I would suggest that you avoid Mr. Aufderheide’s biased website, and turn to (for example) the National Network for Immunization Information (NNii)

    http://www.immunizationinfo.org/

    Like

  338. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 1:03 am

    NNii is on the list as a credible website. I find their articles very easy to read and not too technical but the website is a little hard to navigate. I use the search box a lot.

    Here is a link to their fact sheet about vaccines – http://www.immunizationinfo.org/pressroom/nnii-factsheets/know-facts-about-immunization

    Like

  339. Stephen
    May 11, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Kelly, all you have done is proven how uneducated you are on whole VICP process. There is definitely not enough time and space to get you up to speed on that subject. Seriously, go and research the process.
    Additionally, I chose to only speak of one injury because I felt you did not need to hear pretty much the same story,…your son is delayed,..nothing wrong,..etc. Do you really want all the details.
    And no, there was no ‘alleged injury’ statement. Once again research,…research court documents and wording. Then maybe you will understand.
    As for Nathan’s comment,..I never asked any of you to solve my problem. I just asked how do you explain fully vaccinated children still getting diseases (I.E.: measles)?

    Like

  340. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 1:16 am

    I’d love to research court rulings. Could you please provide a link to the court rulings that support your claim? I would also love to see scientific evidence you used in court to support your claim. What was their injury exactly? Can you explain which vaccine caused that injury and how?

    Your inability to explain how I’m “uneducated”, tells me that you are probably lying and further explanation would reveal that, which is why you don’t want to do it. Makes a very powerful story to say “my kids were vaccine injured”, but in my experience when you start asking people to provide evidence to support these claims, their story falls apart. Anti-vaxers are very fond of the technique called FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). They use FUD to scare people away from vaccines and support their anti-vax stance. It certainly is much easier to scare people than unscare them, so the technique is quite effective for people that cannot look past the emotion to the evidence.

    So, I know you are using FUD right now, and I’d really like to see the evidence that supports it. Otherwise, I know that you are just trying to prey on my emotions and not really worth my time.

    Like

  341. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 1:19 am

    Oh, and to answer your question. No vaccine is 100% effective, Stephen, so yes, vaccinated people can still get the disease but the risk is much lower than not being vaccinated. This is why unvaccinated people represent a threat to others because when they become sick, they can act as a reservoir that allows the pathogen to be transmitted to others and make them sick.

    Like

  342. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 1:20 am

    .I never asked any of you to solve my problem.

    I never said you did. I said you asked us to explain your situation, that of knowing more vaccinated than unvaccinated people who got measles. Chris gave one correct answer, that we don’t know whether you say is true, which is rather important if you want us to “explain” it.

    I just asked how do you explain fully vaccinated children still getting diseases (I.E.: measles)?

    No, you originally asked why you specifically know more vaccinated people with measles. I gave my own explanation of that as well.

    Do you honestly not understand how any vaccinated person could ever possibly get measles?

    Do you understand how a seatbelted person could ever possibly die in a car accident? That’s a start.

    Like

  343. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 1:31 am

    Here is a website that provides information about vaccine-induced immunity from the MMR vaccine:

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/a-look-at-each-vaccine/mmr-measles-mumps-and-rubella-vaccine.html

    It was assumed that one dose of the MMR vaccine would provide protection to the majority of children, but multi-year outbreaks of measles (late 1980s-early 1990s), indicated that some children who had received the one dose of vaccine were contracting measles.

    The second dose of measles is commonly called a “booster”…but it isn’t a “booster” for the ~ 95% of children who develop high titers after one dose of MMR vaccine. The implementation of the second dose of MMR was to “boost” the immune response for the ~ 5 % of children who did not have high enough titers against the measles virus, following one MMR vaccine. After 2 doses of MMR vaccine, given after the first birthday and a minimum of 1 month apart, close to 100 % of children will be immune, for life.

    There have been reports of people who had proven (by measles IGG blood titers), to be immune following the two dose series of MMR vaccine and have, at a later date, tested as not immune. Estimates of people losing their vaccine-induced immunity are inexact, because kids are not usually tested for immunity. Possibly these instances of reported waning immunity are reported from health care facilities which test patient care staff prior to employment.

    I really am impressed with these moms who have become advocates on behalf of children. They are a counterbalance to the small group of ignorant mothers who deny their children the benefit of vaccines

    Like

  344. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 2:48 am

    Correction: “You indicate concern that the doctor will say your child does not have autism…”

    Like

  345. May 11, 2012 at 3:07 am

    Gee Mike Hunt, I’m a pharma shill? Good thing I’ve published my own conflict-of-interest statement!

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2008/04/personal-conflict-of-interest-statement-relative-to-pharmaceuticals-and-vaccines.html

    I have never to the best of my knowledge received any training from any pharmaceutical corporation about anything, much less about vaccine advocacy. I have never been paid EVER to blog or to comment on blogs about anything, let alone about vaccines.

    So your little fantasy about pharma companies paying bloggers and commenters like myself is just that, a fantasy.

    And by the way, I don’t “love” pharma companies. I’m quite taken with some of their products (like vaccines) but find other aspects of their behavior quite offensive (like direct-to-consumer marketing, and prices, and so forth).

    Like

  346. May 11, 2012 at 3:15 am

    Here’s another reason, in addition to the excellent reasons Lawrence gave below: your relatives thousands of years ago were relatively restricted in the diseases they were exposed to, because of the relative slowness of travel.

    Today, a person can be exposed to a disease, begin to incubate it… and travel half-way around the world before the disease is clinically evident. Of course for many diseases, a person is contagious BEFORE showing clinical symptoms.

    Mike, do you ever wonder what happened to the Native American populations when first exposed to infectious disease? Mortality rates as high as 90% were recorded…

    Mike, ff you a citizen of any of the countries of North or South America, you should have at least a clue that the reason your country is the way it is is because (in part) the indigenous populations were were wiped out by disease.

    Like

  347. May 11, 2012 at 3:21 am

    Gee Mike, perhaps you could consider the fact that it wasn’t unusual for women to have 8 to 10 live-birth pregnancies in the historical era (meaning written records available) — say from the 10th century on in parts of Europe — and yet only 3 or 4 might live to adulthood. What do you make of that? Do you think infectious diseases might have had something to do with that?

    Your argument is silly and you should know it.

    Like

  348. May 11, 2012 at 3:23 am

    Mike, I second Chris’s recommendation of 1491. I think it should be required reading in high school.

    Like

  349. May 11, 2012 at 3:38 am

    vetridani, if you want to be civilized, you might in addition to the link, post the citation:

    Free Radic Biol Med. 2012 Apr 18. [Epub ahead of print]
    Oxidative stress-related biomarkers in autism: Systematic review and meta-analyses.
    Frustaci A, Neri M, Cesario A, Adams JB, Domenici E, Dalla Bernardina B, Bonassi S.
    PMID: 22542447

    from the abstract:

    Existing evidence is heterogeneous and many studies are limited by small sample size and effects. In conclusion, existing evidence suggests a role for glutathione metabolism, the transmethylation cycle, and the transsulfuration pathway, although these findings should be interpreted with caution, and larger, more standardized studies are warranted.

    Now, it is up to you to explain what relevance this review has to vaccination, the subject under discussion.

    Like

  350. May 11, 2012 at 3:44 am

    Say, vetridani, why don’t you describe for us the steps in approval of a new vaccine. Let’s say there’s a serious pediatric disease Astritis, that is caused by the Astra virus. Let’s say the Astra virus has been confirmed as the cause of Astritis and the virus has been isolated. Now what would a vaccine inventor and manufacturer have to do to get the vaccine to market?

    Like

  351. May 11, 2012 at 3:58 am

    Actually Mike,this thread has gotten long enough, and layered enough (how I hate threaded comments) that I haven’t a clue which questions of yours haven’t been answered. So be a civil person and restate your questions.

    Like

  352. May 11, 2012 at 4:00 am

    I don’t care. I do what I want. No expert can sway me one way or another.

    So in sum, Mike Hunt, my good-faith efforts to answer your questions were a waste of my time.

    Thanks for your straight-dealing and civil behavior.

    Like

  353. May 11, 2012 at 4:05 am

    Mike wrote,

    I want to help other people understand that people like you [Lawrence] and Kelly are paid to do what you’re doing. You aren’t here for free and you don’t care about anyone.

    Mike, you are perseverating on the idea that Lawrence, Chris, myself, lilady are paid agents of something — big pharma or whatever. Since I post under my own name, and have provided links to my conflict of interest statement, I’d like to see you try again.

    Like

  354. May 11, 2012 at 4:11 am

    I say that Mike Hunt is an agent provocateur and a double agent for Big Pharma, who is trying to get vaccine advocates such as myself to develop arguments that they, Big Pharma, can use to defeat anti-vaccinationist.

    Because I say it, and can show the initiated, some Black-Ops manuals, it must be true, unless Mike Hunt can prove he isn’t in the pay of Big Pharma.

    Like

  355. Karen
    May 11, 2012 at 7:23 am

    I agree, Jessica. I am wondering how many of the anti-vaccinationists have actually read your post. They seem to have no clear understanding on your myth-busting the anti-vaccine tenet that way back when no one was afraid of measles. It would do much to their credibility if they would concede that measles was a disease of concern.

    Like

  356. vetridaqni
    May 11, 2012 at 9:48 am

    My understanding is that clinical trials must be pre-registered as part of the application process and all data must be submitted prior to licensure.
    Here is an overview.
    http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/developmentapprovalprocess/biologicslicenseapplicationsblaprocess/ucm133096.htm

    Not according to what I have read…I’ll see if I can find the info.

    Like

  357. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 9:55 am

    About autism in the Amish:
    Dan Olmsted and Mark Blaxill, in The Age of Autism, p. 252, have this to say about the Amish with autism:
    “There are just a few of them in the U.S., with an overall population of close to two hundred thousand Amish (over two-thirds of whom reside in three states). If we had applied a recent estimate for autism prevalence of 1 in 150 (now, 1 in 88 of those born in 2000, more in younger groups), we would have expected to find quite a large autistic population among the Amish, well over a thousand, but so far have identified only a small handful of cases, a minute fraction of the autism population size one would expect to find. The most aggresive possible count of autistic Amish comes to fewer than twenty cases, which would give us a rate of no more than one in ten thousand, nearly one hundred times less than the best current estimates.
    Dr. Heng Wang, director of the Clinic for Special Needs Children in Ohio, told us the rate of autism in the Amish there was one in fifteen thousand – literally. Of fifteen thousand Amish who live near Middlefield, Ohio, Wang is aware of just one who has autism. The consensus over low autism rates in the Amish population is as true in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, as it is in Middlefield. A Lancaster County doctor named Frank Noonan who has cared for thousands of Amish patients over nearly twenty-five years confirmed the same assessment. “We’re right in the hart of Amish country and seeing none,”said Dr. Noonan, “and that’s just the way it is.”
    One medical center, the Clinic for Special Children in Lancaster County, says it does see Amish autistic children, but only in connection with genetic disorders. A pediatrician there, Kevin Strauss, described the cases as ‘syndromic’- occurring along with genetic defects as opposed to ídiopathic autism’ with no evident organic or genetic anomalies. He told a blog writer, ‘We see autistic behaviors along with seizure disorders or mental retardation or a genetic disorder, where the autism is part of a more complicated clinical spectrum’ such as mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, unusual facial features, and short stature, as well as fragile X syndrome. ‘We see quite a few Amish children with fragile X,’ he said.
    Strauss says he doesn’t see cases of ‘idiopathic autism’- children with average or above average IQs who display autistic behavior- at the clinic….
    All of this suggests that autism as it presents in mainstream American society is markedly absent among the Amish. In interviews with dozens of Amish residents and those who serve them, we came across a single Amish child who met the description of ‘idiopathic’ autism: the exception that could prove the rule. A decade ago, as an infant, she was taken from her family by public health authorities who did not approve of alternative treatments she was given to treat an ear infection; while in their care, she was vaccinated at the Clinic for Special Children before being returned to her family a year later. At that point, the family said, they first noticed autistic behaviors; she now has a diagnosis of full-syndrome autism.”
    Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s Chicago medical practice has treated many thousands of children over forty years, many of them Amish: he says that among the thousands of unvaccinated children he has treated, there has not been a single case of autism.
    Judy Converse had the same experience that I did, her baby was given the hep-B shot at birth without asking permission or even informing the parents, who were mystified when he reacted by screaming inconsolably for days, having seizures, and explosive diarrhea. The medical personnel at the hospital where he had been born were uninterested in hearing about his severe reaction, would not see him, and it wasn’t until they rushed him to the emergency room weeks later with yet another seizure that the doctors took notice, accusing the parents of neglect and subjecting the infant to many invasive procedures which left them in turn mystified as to the cause. She eventually testified before Congress in 1999 as to the horror of this stupid vaccine which was causing thousands of cases of autism since it began to be given to all newborns in the U.S. starting in 1991, to prevent a sexually-transmitted disease that no babies or children born to uninfected mothers get. Dr. Sears did the research, and says that before the vaccine program, an average of only 360 babies and children a year were diagnosed with hep-B, all born to infected mothers, and most of whom made a complete recovery. The authorities artificially jacked the number up to 30,000 a year in order to justify begiinning this program which caused encephalitis and subsequent autism in my baby daughter. Is it any wonder we don’t trust the medical cartel?

    Like

  358. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Thanks, Patricia, I agree that Vactruth has excellent articles about the dangers of vaccines, and parents must be aware that they need to read a lot on BOTH sides of the issue before making a life-changing decision like the one to vaccinate. The sites recommended by the denizens of this site are obviously only the ones that support vaccination and close their eyes to the dangers.

    Like

  359. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 9:59 am

    @Lara… your post is THE most despicable I have ever read… what happen after this child is out of school? What about medication, special diet, caregivers, developmental therapy??? SSI are you KIDDING me REALLY? That pittance is going to cover the costs? You have the audacity to say this child does not have ASD, who the eff are you??? You know NOTHING about this woman or her child! I really wish I could meet ALL of you disgusting people in person…

    I am sorry you had to read this despicable post Cia…really, some people should just shut their mouths, I’m all for expressing your opinion but this crossed all lines of human decency!

    Like

  360. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:01 am

    That’s fine that you have thought a lot about the decision to vaccinate. Just don’t forget that by vaccinating them you may very well have to deal with the life- and health- threatening consequences of vaccines.

    Like

  361. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:04 am

    No cia. You have demonstrated that you lack the ability to critically evaluate your sources. You’ll parrot back anything that confirms your beliefs and ignore anything that doesn’t. You fail to provide citations for anything you claim. For example, you claim vaccines cause autism. You have not provided a single citation to support this claim and ignore the several studies that refute the claim.

    Like

  362. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Hmmm….

    vetridani- “My favorite quote from my Uncle who was a Hematologist… “Bird flu, bird sh*t, it’s ALL bullsh*t!” ”
    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/05/10/moms-who-vax-are-speaking-out/#comment-8595

    Mike Hunt – “My Uncle was a hematologist for 50 years, he passed away a year ago. When the big “bird flu” scare came out, I asked him about the vaccine… he said it was BS.”
    https://shotofprevention.com/2012/05/10/moms-who-vax-are-speaking-out/#comment-8723

    What are the odds that two complete strangers both have an anti-vax, hematologist uncles suddenly decide to post on SoP on the same day? Are they first cousins who want to date each other or is vetridani astroturfing the thread to try to make herself look better?

    I don’t think you get to determine what is despicable or not vetridani when you have been despicable yourself. Is putting children in harm’s way a game for you? If your argument is so strong, why do you have to make up people to agree with you.

    Like

  363. Autismum
    May 11, 2012 at 10:14 am

    I’m really glad you shared your story, Jessica. Even when I was a child (my twin and I got measles when we were 6yrs old, in the 1980s) measles was feared. We spent many a miserable day cooped up in darkness for fear that too much exposure to light would permanently damage our eyes. Measles is not trivial.

    Like

  364. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:16 am

    I wouldn’t worry too much about cia, vetridani. She is a known liar in these parts. Cia admitted earlier in this thread that her child actually hasn’t been diagnosed with autism. She make that up herself. Pretty sad isn’t it, to troll a vaccine advocate page trying to mislead other parents into putting their children in harm’s way by making up stories of vaccine injuries?

    Like

  365. Autismum
    May 11, 2012 at 10:17 am

    It staggers me this study ever got approval in the first place.

    Like

  366. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Oh so I guess adults don’t get vaccinated for chicken pox… lol

    Like

  367. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Only if they never had chicken pox as a child. Considering Mike is you and you are anti-vax, I highly doubt you sought out the chicken pox vaccine as an adult.

    Nevertheless, Mike’s reasoning is still incorrect as Nathan & Chris explained.

    Like

  368. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Even if there is a 1% chance her story is true, I don’t accept Lara’s tactics! They are disgusting…what if sage Lara is WRONG???? Oh let me guess…that’s an impossibility!

    Like

  369. Autismum
    May 11, 2012 at 10:30 am

    correction – it’s the “back to sleep” campaign. Babies should not be put to sleep on their tums.
    Incidentally @john I think your use of the Canning case is despicable – one where a mother was wrongly imprisoned, in very large part, due to a ridiculous interpretation of statistical risk.
    Indeed, vaccinating has been associated with a decrease in SIDS
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10443507
    and I rather like this analysis of Schriebner’s work (page 18)
    http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/theskeptic/1997/1.pdf

    Like

  370. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:30 am

    Who said we were strangers? Citation please??? lol

    What a GENIUS you are Kelly! You win the prize of STEALTH SLEUTH! Mike is my HUSBAND, that’s why we have the same uncle, by MARRIAGE! Took you people long enough to uncover that link, but even the you got it W R O N G ! 🙂 Theory DEBUNKED!

    Like

  371. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:31 am

    What about your tactics, vetridani? Astroturfing the thread and accusing people of being pharma shill is OK with you?

    No wonder you defend cia. You are both intellectually dishonest. Birds of a feather, flock together.

    Like

  372. Kelly's Owner
    May 11, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Ummm Kelly, honey, dani is my wife… I came here yesterday because she told me what an whole ass you were and I wanted to have fun mocking you, which was really easy because you’re such an arrogant, unintelligent, condescending POS…If someone wants to believe you’re here because you care about people and not being paid they’re to dumb to grasp that vaccines are crap anyway. Funny how you’re here again, JUST LIKE IT’S YOUR JOB! LOL PROVE YOU AREN’T PAID BY THE DRUG COMPANIES! Have a nice day at work Kelly… LOL

    Like

  373. Ben Dover & Take that vaccine
    May 11, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Dani, these pro vaccine people are brilliant… they don’t even know who Mike Hunt is… LOL It’s Kelly! LOL

    Like

  374. I inject foreign substances because the CDC says I should
    May 11, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Kelly is Mike Hunt….

    Like

  375. I inject foreign substances because the CDC says I should
    May 11, 2012 at 10:37 am

    What, you mean aborted fetal tissue and crushed chick embryos are bad to inject into my body?

    Like

  376. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:37 am

    Oh, so your argument is that weak that you have to bring in your husband to “help” you. LOL.

    Well, you both did a bang up job demonstrating the dishonest techniques of anti-vaxers.

    Furthermore, the correct way would be to say, “my spouse’s uncle is a hematologist”, not “my uncle”, but of course, you two like to mislead people by lying by omission.

    I ask you again, is this just a game to you? Do you take some sick pleasure in lying to people? Why should anyone believe anything you have said now that you admitted you are a liar?

    Like

  377. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:38 am

    You are the one that got caught lying Mike.

    You have yet to prove your claim that I’m pharma shill.

    Like

  378. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Autismum :
    so speaks Thingy who implied that kids with autism are filthy over on Respectful Insolence. How ya doin’ everyone’s most pitied troll?

    And you must be the maimer, I guess.

    Like

  379. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:42 am

    Many babies die of encephalitis, whether disease or vaccine-induced, like Michael Belkin’s daughter Layla, who died four hours after the hep-B vaccine, and on autopsy was revealed to have a swollen brain (encephalitis), but many survive, although they are often brain-damaged. Kelly has said that she died of SIDS, but most people, on learning that she was previously healthy, but died four hours after the shot and had encephalitis, would pursue a more scientific line of thought and conclude that it was the vaccine that had caused the death. Why did you leave out the symptoms of high-pitched screaming (le cri encéphalique) and prolonged, inconsolable screaming? They are included on most lists of the symptoms of encephalitis. By law, the hospital was supposed to have given me a list of symptoms of vaccine reaction, but they didn’t, probably because I reacted in shock to the news that they had vaccinated my baby against my will, having told the pediatrician a month before she was born that I absolutely didn’t want her to get the hep-B vaccine. My mother held my baby for several hours on two of the four nights of screaming, I was exhausted from holding her in the rocking chair for so many hours on so many nights, and she told the doctor about it. He only asked if the screaming were for more than three hours a day. I heard her say it was much, much more than that, but he didn’t say anything more, did not sugget any follow-up. He said that one of his two daughters had had colic, but that he didn’t believe colic was a physical problem (!) He was concerned about her jaundice (probably caused by the vaccine) and about the fact that she lost one pound two ounces between Tuesday and Thursday, because she couldn’t feed because of the pain, but just advised me to give up breast feeding or use a pump. After the screaming stopped on Saturday afternoon, she once again fed avidly (I did not give up on breast-feeding) and gained all the weight back quickly, grew more every week, but her brain had been damaged.
    Judy Converse’s baby also had a severe reaction to the hep-B vaccine at birth, screaming inconsolably for days, had seizures, and explosive diarrhea, but she couldn’t get any medical personnel to pay any attention to her son’s severe reaction. One nurse mused aloud, “That’s strange, newborn babies never get colic,” but that was all. Colic has always followed a rule of three, starts at three weeks, lasts maximum three months, and lasts at least three hours a day. Now they’re trying to say it can start immediately after birth in order to have a convincing cover-up for vaccine reactions. Weeks later, when Judy and her husband rushed the infant to the ER with yet another seizure, at first they were brushed off until the baby had a seizure in front of them, and then they went ballistic, leaving him naked on a cold table for over an hour while they tried to poke him in the right place to do a spinal tap. They had no idea what to do for him. One doctor opined that it must be the Pamper’s diaper reacting to his feces making it appear as though he had really weird diarrhea, nor did they have any idea when he displayed the symptoms of autism and severe delay in his acquisition of motor skills. He was born in 1997, three years before my daughter.
    Wendy Lydall reports, in Raising a Vaccine-Free Child, p. 177, “A baby born at Box Hill hospital in Melbourne in September 2002 was doing well. It was contented while awake, and feeding and sleeping well. When it was two days old it was injected with hepatitis B vaccine at 4 p.m. It immediately stopped feeding, and it cried constantly. The mother was very concerned, but the nurses were not. It continued crying until it died at 7 a.m. The newspaper published the death notices, but not the cause of death.
    In 1988 the hepatitis B vaccine made with human blood was introduced into New Zealand. The policy was that newborns were vaccinated a few days after birth, and a nurse had to stand and watch the babies for 20 minutes so that if one had a bad reaction to the vaccine, she could inject it with adrenaline. After a few months a nurse telephoned Hilasry Butler and told her that the policy had been changed. Nurses had now been instructed to carry adrenaline and a syringe at all times, because some babies were going into shock more than 20 minutes after the vaccination, and some were dying in the time that it took for the nurse to gallop to the store and fetch adrenaline after she noticed the reaction. A normal brain would think that the policy should have been changed to suspend vaccination, but bureaucratic brains are not normal.
    The vaccine was introduced in both Australia and New Zealand with the claim that a child could catch hepatitis B in the playground from the scabs or open wounds of carrier children. The New Zealand government employed Saatchi and Saatchi to make a terrifying TV adertisment that promoted fear of the disease, and confidence in the vaccine. The advertisement featured empty playground equipment and a doll that fell to the ground. Saatchi and Saatchi have great talent. The advertisement was so chiling, bordering on spooky, it sent a shudder down one’s spine. After the vaccine was introduced, the theory that children could catch hap B from other children was put to the test by a study in Sydney, and it was found that hep B is not passed on from child to child.” ( “Kids don’t spread hepatitis B.” Austraian Doctor Weekly 6 Nov. 1992; Burgess, M.A., McIntosh, E.D.G., et al., “Hepatitis B in urban Australian schoolchildren – No evidence of horizontal transmission between high-risk and low-risk groups.” Med j Aust 5 Sept 1993; 159: 315-319.)

    Like

  380. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Who lied??? You geniuses couldn’t see that we knew each other??? We can see Kelly, Chris, and Larry all know each other…it’s obvious, even to Hellen Keller!

    Love you Mike! 🙂

    Like

  381. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:44 am

    HAHAHHAHAH! This is my fav and can NOT be topped! 🙂

    Like

  382. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:46 am

    We did a bang up job hijacking this thread! 🙂

    Like

  383. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 10:47 am

    I really am impressed with these moms who have become advocates on behalf maimers of children.

    Well it takes one to know one, right lilady?

    Like

  384. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Thanks, Kelly’s Owner, I get really tense on this site, and your e-mails have made me laugh a lot with their sanity and humor.

    Like

  385. Autismum
    May 11, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “They berated and insulted the mother of a child autistic by vaccine”
    No such person exists

    Like

  386. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:51 am

    I have no personal relationship with Chris or Lawrence. So if you are seeing some kind of connecting, then it is your fantasy.

    I’m sure Mike loves you too, which is why he goes with whatever you say about vaccines. Doesn’t take a genius to see who wears the pants in the family and I’m sure Mike wants to keep having sex with you.

    So sad that you don’t have brain of your own, Mike. I hope her beauty makes it worth losing your ability to think.

    Like

  387. Autismum
    May 11, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Well said Lara.

    Like

  388. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Kelly,
    Since you have displayed the utmost cruelty toward dozens of us who have recounted our experiences with vaccine damage here, and when you face an able opponent you call in each other to gang up on her and squelch her, one must conclude that you have a vested interest in persuading mothers to throw their children under the train. Rational people are concerned about both children damaged or killed by diseases and children damaged or killed by vaccine. They say there may be some benefits to vaccinating, but that the dangers are becoming increasingly more apparent, and it’s important to consider both sides carefully. You don’t, it’s not in your job description.

    Like

  389. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 10:58 am

    My fantasies are much more colorful than that… lol…like I told you yesterday Kelly maybe YOU should get off the computer and have some FUN of your own! hahahahah

    and how did you know I was beautiful? Maybe you really are a genius, I am sorry for doubting you… 🙂

    Hey Mike…still coming home for your lunchtime quickie? I hope so! 😉

    Like

  390. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 11:03 am

    I thought this site discouraged the use of sock puppets…which I am seeing in abundance here.

    Did someone mention the “Amish Study” that appeared in AoA? What a joke! It gave science bloggers their fodder for many posts about the *science* behind it and the incompetence of the *researcher* who *published* that drivel. Here’s a more recent article about the study of an Amish community which shows Amish do immunize…the ones who don’t, get sick:

    http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2011/06/28/anecdotal-amish-dont-vaccinate-claims-disproved-by-fact-based-study/

    Still looking for the incidence of eyelid ptosis CIA? Maybe it’s an indication of “idiopathic autism” or a case of idiopathic hypochondria manifested by pathological lying. Tsk Tsk CIA…self-diagnosing your child with encephalitis and self-diagnosing yourself and your other child with vaccine injuries.

    Like

  391. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 11:04 am

    cia, you are a known liar. You aren’t vaccine damaged. You lie about that.

    Indeed, rational people are concerned about those harmed by the vaccines and those harmed by the disease. Since the disease has much greater ability to cause harm, rational people choose to vaccinate their children.

    Irrational people like yourself choose to spread lies in order to put children in harm’s way.

    If it makes me a bad person for correcting your lies and protecting children, I can live with that.

    Like

  392. I inject foreign substances because the CDC says I should
    May 11, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Sorry Kelly, that’s not how it works, It’s obvious you’re a shill, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

    Like

  393. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Hey Cia… Citation please! lol 🙂

    Like

  394. Mike Hunt
    May 11, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Kelly, you’re so amusing… dani is beautiful… like you wouldn’t believe. She takes the lead on the vaccines because she’s very intelligent and knows what she’s talking about. I don’t care about the issue because NOBODY can tell me what to do with my kids. And if you vaccinate your kids I don’t care because I don’t CARE about your kids or if they get harmed by vaccines… Got it Kelly… she’s a babe, you’re a vicious, nasty bitch and I don’t care about you or your kids health so inject all the crap you want into yourselves :>)… Have a nice day, CU next Tuesday…

    Like

  395. Mike Hunt
    May 11, 2012 at 11:17 am

    dani, yes, of course I’ll be home for the lunchtime quicky… because I wear the pants in that area Kelly.. If you’re wondering, you arrogant *****

    Like

  396. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 11:23 am

    YES!!! xoxo 🙂

    Like

  397. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Best to just ignore the potty-mouthed trolls.

    Like

  398. Mike Hunt
    May 11, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Too bad vaccines have robbed you of your social skills Kelly… Kelly, I’m curious, are you a fit woman or are you a Jelly Belly Kelly? hahahaha Forgive my assuming you’re a woman… one that comes across like a Butch…

    Like

  399. Mike Hunt
    May 11, 2012 at 11:38 am

    Lilgrily… You and that bulldike can ignore me all day… I’m not here for either of you…

    Like

  400. Mike Hunt
    May 11, 2012 at 11:39 am

    KELLY… PROVE YOU’RE NOT PAID BY BIG PHARMA! PROVE IT! Logic says you are… why else would you be here so much and be acting sooooo militant, as if you’re paycheck depended on it… LOL

    Like

  401. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 11:45 am

    The First Steps people came to our house when my daughter had just turned two, and decided she was only at a fifteen month old level in one category, and a nine month old level for speech. They had a speech therapist come to our house, who tried to get her to talk or at least use signs, but my daughter couldn’t do anything along those lines, and the therapist gave up, saying that if there was no ability to imitate at all, there was nothing she could do. First Steps also sent an occupational therapist to our house, who brought blunt scissors and clown pictures that she wanted my 25 month old, developmentally delayed daughter to cut out, which she was unable to do. She came twice, then failed to show up ever again. They actually didn’t have a clue what to do to help developmentally-delayed children like my daughter progress.
    I worked with my daughter many hours a day, every day. We read, we played, we went to the park and the playground, walked every day on a nature trail in the woods to a lake so she would learn to love the nature there, we went to a play group sponsored by Parks and Rec, every week for four years (she never interacted with any of the children, just sat in a corner taking toys out of a box). We shook tambourines and beat on a drum, I colored pictures, she scribbled, I did bouncing games with her on my knee to nursery rhymes. I made clay with baking soda, salt, and food coloring, though she never tried to make shapes with it. When she was five and six I acted out fairy tales with puppets, Lego figures, and stuffed animals. I sang every children’s song popular in English, Spanish, Italian, and German for the last two hundred years. The Parents as Teachers woman who visited us was amazed when she stopped screaming as soon as I started the medley of lullabies that I sang every day, as though she had been turned off. When she was just turned three, I realized that when she said uh, oo, ee, oh, ay, ih, and so on, she was counting, but couldn’t say the consonants. She said the alphabet the same way. The summer she was four I realized that when I played children’s songs on the piano, that she was reading the titles of the songs. I thought at first she just recognized the pictures, but I quickly found that she could read things she’d never seen before, was hyperlexic.
    I got Jed Baker’s picture book of social skills for autistic children, and taught her every one of them, and had her practice asking our friends questions using the who, what, when, etc. series of questions. I made her practice saying “Do you want to play with me?,” “Let’s compromise, and do your thing for a while, and then my thing,” and about ten others. She turned twelve last Saturday, still adores zhu zhu pets and her Chatimal. I homeschool her three days a week. She’s normal in math, that wasn’t the part of her brain that was damaged, and she got an award for student of the month in February for her excellent abilities in math. She’s halfway through a seventh-grade math book in our homeschooling now. She’s improved a lot in reading comprehension, and I’ve made her just memorize the answers to thousands of questions from the Core Curriculum series, to make new neural connections and improve her memory, as well as stocking her mind with basic information. We work from the Learning Language Arts from Literature series, the Oak Meadow Waldorf curriculum, and the Linda Moody reading comprehension books. We have Montessori charts on the wall now, last year four charts on evolution of plants and animals, that she had to reconstruct on blank charts, and this year on the evolution of man.
    We started a GFCF diet two months ago, and it resolved her extremely severe chronic constipation in just two days. The doctor hadn’t been able to help her at all, Miralax twice a day just wasn’t enough, nor was the Natural Calm magnesium, aloe vera juice, high-fiber cereal, Colace, Smooth Move senna tea, or milk of magnesia. The doctor thought the diet was a bad idea, but we did it anyway. We’re vegetarian, and I was worried about protein, and told a friend on the phone that I had decided to bite the bullet and buy pre-cooked chicken breast at Schunucks for her. She heard me talking, and said “No, I’m a vegetarian too, I’m not going to eat meat!” I told her I was proud of her moral commitment, but worried about protein. She drinks soy milk now three times a day, with as much protein and calcium as milk, and she loves the recipes from The Welcoming Kitchen, a GFCFSF vegetarian cookbook I found on Amazon. I’m giving her chlorella/cilantro drops twice a day, and am taking them myself as well, they’re supposed to make the body excrete the mercury and other heavy metals retained by some people from vaccines and other sources. My daughter is talking and reasoning so much better since we started the diet and the drops, that I think they must be helping.
    She’s making her First Communion tomorrow, she fit very well in the class of second-graders this past year. She is talking better and better. ADHD children are said to eventually have their brains mature, though slower than normal. I’m hoping her brain will mature the same way.
    I believe I have cared for my daughter in the best, most responsible way possible, except that I wish every day that I had told every person that I saw at the hospital that I didn’t want her to get the hep-B vaccine. I didn’t realize they’d do it without even asking permission.
    I do not believe any professionals could have helped her reach the level which she has as well as I have done. I’m sad and worried about the future, but no one can force a brain to catch up in its development. They say now that a third of autistic children become normal.

    Like

  402. Kelly's owner
    May 11, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    You are very welcome Cia!

    Like

  403. Jazz
    May 11, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    I’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again…. “If the vaccines work, then what are you pro-vaxers SO worried about?” Your children are protected and safe from all the evil stuff in the world-right? So you shouldn’t care if other moms choose not to vax. I am anti-vaccines, but I could care less who vax’s and who doesn’t. What I don’t understand is how you pro-vaxers cannot see the financial motives behind these big Pharma companies who make these vaccines. There is a vaccine for everything now a days..the flu…chicken pox… stupid issues that pass and are easy to care for, yet build your immune system. Who the hell needs a vaccine for the flu?? Come on now. For being a non-vaxer, I truly find myself to be rather level headed and non-bias when it comes to this issue. I can understand why people think they should vaccinate their children for polio and other diseases that have caused death and serious injury, but there are so many silly vaccines that are unnecessary and really only used for financial gain. Do you really think these Pharma companies have your childs best interest at heart? Maybe at one point in time they made these things for a good purpose, but now they are money hungry, greedy SOB’s who prey on vulnerable parents who or uninformed and gulliable. It’s really sad.

    Like

  404. Stephen
    May 11, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Kelly,…here is your quote: “.., why would vaccine court go through the expense of a trial to show that the vaccine caused the injury just to dismiss the claim because it wasn’t filed within the correct time frame?” That alone is proof positive that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Vaccine Injury Compensation. Just go to the VICP website and research the process. Talk to an attorney who is qualified to represent in the VICP court.

    FUD. Yes, I am FUD-ing you. You know, I can go to wikipedia too and find a nice acronym. My FUD is a little different than yours though: F is for fact: (Example) Using documents provided by pediatrician and other physicians to present a case of vaccine injury. U is for Understanding: Being understanding to people like you who only do half the research (if any at all) and expect me to believe your one sided and second hand information. D is for Discipline: To stick to my beliefs and educate people of both the possible risks and benefits of vaccinating.

    And if I remember correctly, I never said I was anti-vaccine. If you remember, I said I vaccinated. It’s just that my kids were injured as a result of.

    Now Nathan, really? You want to compare vaccinating to wearing seatbelts? Last time I checked there have been no reported injuries or deaths as a result of just putting a seat belt on. That is pretty asinine.

    Oh and by the way, the information you provided Nathan didn’t answer my question at all. Kelly did that for you: “No vaccine is 100% effective, Stephen, so yes, vaccinated people can still get the disease,…”

    Therefore, everyone should educate themselves and weigh the risks and benefits. That is what I am about. Providing information from both sides as well as my own personal experience with vaccine injury. And if you can’t accept that, then I guess it’s not worth my time to listen to you. (Thanks for that one Kelly.)

    Like

  405. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    vetridani :
    Wait for it Th1Th2…they’ll be coming to debunk it!

    I’m not going to hold my breath. These stupid vaccinators are going to hate themselves first for being so utterly clueless and ignorant about varicella vaccine and shingles.

    Like

  406. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Now Nathan, really? You want to compare vaccinating to wearing seatbelts? Last time I checked there have been no reported injuries or deaths as a result of just putting a seat belt on.

    That’s irrelevant. You asked how a person could get measles when vaccinated. I asked in return how a seatbelted person could be injured in a car accident. The answer is that neither of them are 100% effective, but both are safer than the alternative.

    Besides, “just putting a seatbelt on” may not have any reported injuries, but this does not change the fact that there are indeed risks to putting a seatbelt on, such as entrapment. They are just far outweighed by the benefits.

    Like

  407. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Kelly :
    The increase in cases is due to increase surveillance as part of the polio vaccination program.

    Did you just pull that one out from your neighbor’s arse?

    Like

  408. May 11, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Lara, you ask: And on another note, what foreign animal DNA is used in vaccines?
    Answer:
    There are many types of foreign animal DNA in vaccines.The authorities (FDA) state that it is not possible to garantee absence of DNA contaminants.

    Please see this article for details:
    http://vactruth.com/2012/01/21/fly-in-my-vaccine-soup/

    Like

  409. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Kelly :
    Only if they never had chicken pox as a child.

    So what if they never had chicken pox as a child? Aren’t you happy they were not infected? What are you going to do now? Intentionally inject and infect them with the varicella virus thus essentially recruiting more and more shingles sufferers? It’s fascinating to know how deranged and dangerous the minds of these (vaccine) infection promoters are.

    Like

  410. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Your c**t is a double agent??? lol ….

    Like

  411. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Christina,

    I know you have a very lenient policy on allowing comments, however, I feel, personally, these two, vetridani and Mike Hunt are no longer even attempting to contribute in any way to discussion and conversation of the issue/s at hand. They are becoming increasingly disruptive and I would like to request that future comments by them be blocked. Thank you for hearing me out.

    Like

  412. Chris
    May 11, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    To which you will be asked again:

    1. How do you protect babies who are too young for the MMR vaccine from measles?

    2. How do you protect babies who have not had the full schedule of four DTaP series from pertussis?

    3. How do you protect immune compromised persons (like those undergoing treatment for cancer or those with genetic immune issues) from diseases?

    4. How do you protect those whose immunity from pertussis has waned? Remember immunity to pertussis will decrease to nothing in as soon as four years even if you had the disease.

    What I don’t understand is how you pro-vaxers cannot see the financial motives behind these big Pharma companies who make these vaccines.

    Now I will ask you how it is more financially prudent to not give a child two MMR doses and then take the chance they will be the one in a dozen who get measles that will need hospital care? From the 2011 measles outbreaks in the USA:

    During 2011, a provisional total of 222 measles cases were reported from 31 states (Figure 1). ..Among the 70 (32%) measles patients who were hospitalized, 17 (24%) had diarrhea, 15 (21%) were dehydrated, and 12 (17%) had pneumonia. No cases of encephalitis and no deaths were reported.

    So out of 222 cases, seventy required hospital care. So how exactly is that cost efficient?

    I will consider you level headed and unbiased if you can answer the above questions with verifiable scientific documentation, which should include the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers. Much like the following:

    Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

    Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.
    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.
    Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.

    Like

  413. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    So Kelly…adults do get vaccinated for chicken pox, right? Did Mike say he had chicken pox as a child? No…he said he was vaccinated for CP and still got shingles.

    Like

  414. Stephen
    May 11, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Nathan, to quote you, “…how a person could get measles when vaccinated. I asked in return how a seatbelted person could be injured in a car accident. The answer is that neither of them are 100% effective, but both are safer than the alternative.”

    You are correct, neither one of them are 100% effective. But I beg to differ that they are both safer than the alternative. Not all the diseases we vaccinate against are deadly. But, some of the adverse reactions to these vaccinations are life long injuries or death. So to me you need to make an educated decision,…get (for example) measles, mumps, rubella, or chicken pox (two of which I had as a child and managed to survive), or take a chance at artificial immunity and/or an injury as a result of an adverse reaction.

    Like

  415. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Chris :
    To which you will be asked again:
    1. How do you protect babies who are too young for the MMR vaccine from measles?

    You do know that your question is amazingly stupid, don’t you Chris?

    Let me fix that one for you.

    “How do you protect babies who are too young to be injected and infected with live viruses?”

    Now answer the question.

    Like

  416. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Well, that’s nice Stephen, but you haven’t provided any facts, you have no idea how much research I’ve done, and you have avoided answering my questions.

    I’ve asked you to explain your children’s alleged vaccine injury and you keep refusing. You haven’t provided the scientific evidence you used to support your claim. You haven’t identified what the injury actually was. You haven’t explained how vaccines would cause that injury. That’s what would interest me. You say I should do more research, but you aren’t giving me anything to research. Just some story that your kids were supposedly vaccine injured. Lots of people claim their kids are vaccine injured when they are not. Real vaccine injuries show up in the scientific literature, but since you can’t support your claim, your claim is probably false.

    The VCIP doesn’t apply to me because I’m not an American. Furthermore, law has nothing to do with science, so what an American court thinks really doesn’t matter to me. I was just curious and wanted to learn more, but if you don’t want to provide me with information to support your claim, it’s no big deal to dismiss you as just an interesting story.

    Like

  417. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    I second Lara’s comment about the potty-mouthed trolls. Christine you need to look up “Mike Hunt” to find out how this troll is posting his filth “in code”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_name#Sexual_slang

    Like

  418. Th1Th2
    May 11, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Nathan :

    Do you honestly not understand how any vaccinated person could ever possibly get measles?

    I certainly do understand that the vaccinated, who have had primary measles infection from measles vaccination, are also susceptible to measles reinfection, and thus are infectious. Read that: measles RE-infection.

    Estimated susceptibility to asymptomatic secondary immune response against measles in late convalescent and vaccinated persons.

    Serological evidence indicates that measles virus (MV) could circulate in seropositive, fully protected populations. Among individuals fully protected against disease, those prone to asymptomatic secondary immune response are the most likely to support subclinical MV transmission. The serological characteristics of protected subjects who developed secondary immune response after reexposure to measles have been described recently [Huiss et al. (1997): Clinical and Experimental Immunology 109:416-420]. On the basis of these data, a threshold of susceptibility was defined to estimate frequencies of secondary immune response competence in different populations. Among measles, late convalescent adults (n = 277) and vaccinated high school children (n = 368), 3.2-3.9% and 22.2-33.2%, respectively, were considered susceptible to secondary immune response. A second vaccination did not seem to lower this incidence. Even when estimates of symptomatic secondary immune response (e.g., secondary vaccine failure) were taken into account, susceptibility to subclinical secondary immune response was still 5-8 times higher after vaccination than after natural infection. Although viral transmission between protected individuals has never been directly demonstrated, the data describe a population in which protected but infectious persons could potentially be of epidemiological importance.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9700638

    In reality, vaccines never protect but infect. “That’s the start.”

    Like

  419. Manu
    May 11, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    I can not imagine that mom´s heart ache of loosing 4 children. I understand that nothing breaks you more than loosing a child. I do think this story needs some perspective. This happened in the early 19th hundreds when the conditions of sanitation, running water and medical care were much different from Today. My mom had a sister who died of a stomach virus in the 1950s, that will be unheard of today unless you are on a very under developed country that has no access to sanitation, running water or medical care.
    This is an anecdotal story form the early 20th century when yes measles was a dangerous disease because o the lack of proper medical attention not because of the absence or presence of a vaccine. Medical Research shows that measles is seldom fatal. The risk of a serious complication from Measles is about the same as the risk of a serious reaction to the measles vaccine. So I do understand why some of us take, after researching a lot, will opt for the risk of getting the disease before over loading the immune system of our kids. We can not compare the living conditions of the 1900 with today´s living conditions and assume that all infectious diseases that occurred were taken care of because of vaccines, that is a very myopic way of seeing things. I do believe vaccines have contributed in some degree to control the spread of some infectious diseases but so has contributed, and even to a greater degree, the improvement of living conditions. I think some vaccines are needed (for the few very rare and serious diseases) but the current US vaccine schedule has a big # of vaccines that are not needed and definitely not that early in the life of a child (i.e Hep B, ChickenPox, Rotavirus, Rubella, Measles, Mumps). I believe this over loading of today´s children´s immune system is creating an uncontrollable amount of chronic conditions. It is normal now to have a kid on a nebulizer for example. Why is the US , which is the country with the most aggressive vaccine schedule also the industrialized nation with the worst rates of infant mortality and overall children{s health? I think it is good to question the establishment every now and then.
    Some Food for thought
    http://www.infowars.com/new-study-finds-direct-link-between-vaccines-and-infant-mortality/

    By the way I tried to put this comment on the Blog but it is closed for members. Funny how they just want to hear what feeds their believe and nothing different

    Like

  420. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Manu: You need to read prior posts about the risk of contracting measles versus the risk of vaccinating against the virus. Here, again is the PKIDS blog for some basic information.

    http://www.pkids.org/immunization/consequences_not_vaccinating.html

    Also, you would do well to look up the routes of transmission for vaccine-preventable diseases to tell us how improved sanitation has an impact on the transmission of measles.

    Polio, which is passed via the fecal oral route, decreased dramatically, once the Salk vaccine was licensed. Why did we have outbreaks in major American cities, which had all the “modern” conveniences, such as pure water and indoor toilets, just before the vaccine became available…and why once kids were immunized did we eliminate wild polio virus infections in developed countries?

    BTW, Infowars is not a reliable source for you to be citing.

    Like

  421. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Manu, measles has killed 9 people in France just last year. Those are 9 deaths in living conditions of today, with proper medical attention. These people were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Measles is just as much a killer now as it was back then. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6047a1.htm

    The risk is not the same. How many deaths have there been from the MMR in the 2011? Is it more than 9?

    There is a difference between what you believe and reality. You need to provide citations to support the following claims:
    – the risk of serious complication from measles is about the same as the risk of serious reaction to the measles vaccine
    – how sanitation reduced the incidence of measles when measles has an airborne transmission unrelated to sanitation
    – vaccines overload the immune system
    – vaccines cause chronic conditions

    Like

  422. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Stephen, first off (again) your original question had nothing to do with the risks of the vaccines, so going on about the risks of vaccines and safety belts is simply obsfucating the answer to your original question. I was not trying to make an analogy about the risks of vaccines and seatbelts, only the efficacy.
     
    Further, you are creating two separate definitions of “deadly” for your own purposes.  If you are asserting that vaccines are “deadly” because “some of the adverse reactions to these vaccinations are lifelong injuries or death,” than that applies to the diseases as well, as they ALL can cause lifelong injuries or death.  In fact, they do so many orders of magnitude more commonly than the vaccines. 
     
    You’re right, one needs to make an educated decision. One needs to be educated in math, for example.  Which to choose?  The risk of the vaccine, or the thousandfold higher risk of the disease?

    Like

  423. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Is this your post Lara in Age of Autism?? I thought you were pro vax?

    Posted by: Lara Lohne | February 26, 2011 at 02:35 PM

    Shouldn’t we also count adults among the vaccine-injured? It’s time we include the millions of Alzheimer’s patients who likely were injured by their yearly flu-shots. I noticed that autistic children have a prevalence of the APOE4 gene which is considered to be a marker for Alzheimer’s. The indemnification of vaccine manufacturers will also affect the elderly.

    When I saw Bill Gates on CNN with Sanjay Gupta, the only thing I could think about was the movie “The Constant Gardener”. What is Bill Gates’ real motivation?

    Like

  424. melanie
    May 11, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    I shutter to think that I used to be one of these provax lemmings! Thank god i set out to prove a non-vaxer wrong, and in the process learned enough to change my own views. I discovered the true harm of vaccines, and the fear mongering of doctors trying to make us live in fear of diseases that are incredibly rare thanks to modern meds and sanitation. Yes, its sad that people once died of diseases over 100 years ago, but a LOT has changed since then! Its ridiculous to base current medical decisions off of what happened in ancient times…do we still do blood letting to cure common colds? Or how about some whisky for arthritis meds? LOL. How many of you provax mama’s actually ask to read the package inserts at the doctors office before they inject toxins into your child? Or have even read the stats on these diseases you are vaxing against?-

    Like

  425. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Actually, vetridani, no, that is not me. My posts on AoA have been blocked since I told them my son has autism but didn’t get vaccinated prior to the onset of symptoms and I don’t, therefore, believe that vaccines cause autism. After my stating this I received numerous threats and was told my son doesn’t count, his autism isn’t real and I am a liar. I also never posted with my real name because I wished to remain anonymous to these people until I knew whether or not they could be trusted. If there are posts there under my name, they are not from me. I haven’t ever read any such research that autism and Alzheimer’s are somehow connected, nor have I ever seen the movie, ‘The Constant Gardener’. I’ve not been allowed to post on AoA since 2010 anyway, as when I learned of my son’s diagnosis I went looking for support and understand from other parents and thought I might find it there. Boy was I wrong. My son’s diagnosis was given in June 2010, I was banned from posting at AoA in August 2010. With the ill treatment I received from them from the one time/day I did post there, I have never had any desire to return. Of course I’m sure you’ll just assume I’m lying, but what you think doesn’t matter one bit to me because I know where I stand and why I stand there and that is all I need. If someone feels the need to masquerader as me, well that says a lot about their integrity to me.

    Like

  426. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Christina,
    I love the comments of vetridani and Mike Hunt, and feel that they have added a lot to the discussion. For obvious reasons, I think you should have a talk with Kelly about her belligerence.

    Like

  427. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Nine deaths out of thirty thousand in Europe last year is a lower figure than the traditional figure of one out of a thousand. That means it’s not as much of a killer as it was a hundred years ago. I’ve recently seen you people say that three in a thousand die from measles, clearly a greatly-inflated figure.

    Like

  428. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    If you say it’s not you then I believe you…you may want to be careful of using your real name…just some friendly advice.

    Like

  429. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Thanks cia!

    Like

  430. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    You may need some whiskey after commenting on this site Melanie…they are going to come at you with guns blazing… 🙂

    Like

  431. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    I use my real name here because a couple of months ago, my story of growing up anti-vaccine was posted here. Of course there were questions raised by those of the anti-vaccine camp, which I felt required answering so I used my real name. That eliminated the question that it was in fact me answering them. Since that post, I have been required to sign into my account in order to comment, which prevents me from using my pseudonym. When it matters, I don’t use my real name and it will be difficult for people who don’t know me to link my real name to my pseudonym. So to an extent I can still remain anonymous to those that matter.

    Like

  432. Stephen
    May 11, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    The two of you are pieces of work:

    What sort of scientific evidence do you need? Here is an example of one of the immediate reactions my first child had to his first round of vaccines: 3hrs47mins after four shots, my son started vomiting, ran a fever of 101, and had diarrhea. I don’t know how to prove that scientifically to you,…you tell me. I sure as hell am not going to scan his medical record and post it here. Here is another example,..after his 18 month round of vaccinations my son lost the ability to speak. Once again,…not sure how I can prove that to you scientifically.

    In addition, you make all sorts of remarks about the VICP, but yet you have no clue about the program. And now you are saying you aren’t an American so it doesn’t apply to you and you don’t care. If you don’t care, then keep quiet about it, drop it, leave it alone. It is better to keep comments to oneself and appear to be ignorant than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

    Nathan, goodness,… Seriously. We already know Kelly answered the first question, and then you did too later after I brought it up again. But, you were the one who brought up seatbelts, which made no sense. And now you are brining up learning math and saying ‘thousandfold higher risk.’ I guess it is so easy for you guys to sit back and say provide the scientific proof,..well, let’s see you provide the mathmatical equation on how you got ‘thousandfold.’

    As I said before, I am FUD-ing.

    Good luck to the two of you. I pray that all goes well with anyone you choose to vaccinate. (Are you going to hate on me now that I mentioned I pray too?)

    Like

  433. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    You mean you were duped by the misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies used by anti-vaxers.

    Measles virus is transmitted via the respiratory route. No amount of sanitation will change the transmission of measles virus, thus you must be misunderstanding measles pathogenesis.

    It would be ridiculous to base medical decisions off what happen in ancient times, however 9 people in Europe died of measles just last year. Have you read the stats on the diseases you are not vaxing against? Here’s a hint: the stats favour vaccination.

    If you have read the package inserts and understand the ingredients, you would know that vaccines do not contain toxins, melanie.

    You still have a lot of learning yet to do, melanie.

    Like

  434. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    There is no shame in being ignorant about something, Stephen. We can’t all know everything. I’m asking you questions so I can learn more, but you don’t want to explain, so if it isn’t important to you, not seeing why it should be important to me, especially when court decisions aren’t relevant to deciding whether to vaccinate or not.

    Fever is a common event after vaccination. It is no big deal. Vomiting or diarrhea is a little more concerning. How do you know these were caused by the vaccines? Same with the loss of speech. How do you know this was caused by the vaccines? Just because this occurred after vaccination doesn’t mean that the vaccines caused this. You seem to be confusing correlation with causation, so don’t be surprised when I’m not convinced by your lack of logic.

    You admit that you can’t support your claims. I’m not going to put my harms way on unsubstantiated claims, Stephen. Sorry.

    Like

  435. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Nine people still died, cia. “Death from measles was reported in approximately 0.2% of the cases in the United States from 1985 through 1992.” That’s 2 in a 1000 in the US, if I did my math right.
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html

    How many deaths are acceptable to you?

    Like

  436. lilady
    May 11, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    @ Vetridani: You’ve got your nerve accusing Lara of being the individual who posted that ridiculous statement on AoA: Put your glasses on now…here’s the statement again with the actual poster:

    “Shouldn’t we also count adults among the vaccine-injured? It’s time we include the millions of Alzheimer’s patients who likely were injured by their yearly flu-shots. I noticed that autistic
    children have a prevalence of the APOE4 gene which is considered to be a marker for Alzheimer’s. The indemnification of vaccine manufacturers will also affect the elderly.

    When I saw Bill Gates on CNN with Sanjay Gupta, the only thing I could think about was the movie “The Constant Gardener”. What is Bill Gates’ real motivation?

    Posted by: Birgit Calhoun | February 26, 2011 at 01:45 PM”

    Still playing games with the truth, eh? You and your sock puppet need to be banned for your vile and filthy slurs against women.

    Like

  437. Karen
    May 11, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Ashley, your point is excellent and difficult for anti-vaccinationists to respond to. In fact, Jessica’s entire post seems to trip them up to the point that they seem unable to stay on topic and discuss it. The fact remains that measles is an unpredictable virus, and our ancestors only a generation or two ago understood that it was nothing to trifle with.

    Like

  438. Karen
    May 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Melanie, what has changed about the way we treat measles? What modern medicine do you think is used to treat it? How do you think this airborne virus is treated? Did you know that in the 2011 outbreak in the US, a third of the people who contracted measles ended up in the hospital? What do you suppose went wrong for the third of the measles cases in the US last year?

    Also, I am interested to learn how you believe sanitation changes how contagious and virulent measles is, seeing as it is an airborne virus? Also, what changes in sanitation have occurred since 1963, when the measles vaccine was licensed? I wasn’t alive then, but my parents were, and to their recollection things were pretty clean then. They had garbage collection, running water, toilets, and pretty much any other sanitary convenience we have today. If you’d like, we can also explain how changes in sanitation since the 1980s has affected the spread of Hib disease, since it has declined since the inception of the vaccine then.

    I’m also curious what you think I would find in the package inserts for vaccines. I’ve read them, and I understand who wrote them and why. Do you?

    Lastly, your toxin gambit is thoroughly debunked almost hourly in the comment section of this blog. Vaccines contain no toxic ingredients. None. Not one. So, when my children receive their vaccines, I am confident that they are non-toxic.

    Like

  439. vetridani
    May 11, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    @ lilady: I didn’t accuse I asked HUGE difference, she said it was not her post and I said I believed her (even though she assumed I wouldn’t.)

    I was mistaken about the order of the posting info, the posters names are on the bottom of the posts, not the top…innocent mistake. Here is what she actually posted:

    I still am flabbergasted by the audacity of these ‘vaccine safety advocates’ as they are calling themselves and the lengths they will go to in order to keep this debate alive and growing. Do they honestly think that there hasn’t been safety precautions taken in vaccines since they first started screaming “Thimerosal is causing autism?” Even though there has never been any evidence found by medical and science professionals who have looked (no, I’m not going to take Jenny McCarthy’s word for anything medical, she’s not a doctor and needs to be quiet) it was removed from vaccines 17 years ago at the request of consumer demand, and they are still blaming new cases of autism on it. Multiple research studies have been done, not just by scientists and medical professionals in the US but around the world starting when they first began screaming about this supposed connection they swore damaged their children. Never has any *REAL* study been able to find any even casual link between the two. It’s time to let this go and start looking for REAL solutions. Bill Gates echoes my own personal feelings on this issue: These out spoken people are the ones undermining the vaccine program because parents aren’t getting their kids vaccinated because they are afraid of them getting autism. It doesn’t happen and it is irresponsible to not have your children vaccinated. Herd immunity is being compromised and diseases that KILL children (which is why there is a vaccine for them to begin with) are creeping back up and children are dying. Find and read a book ‘The Panic Virus’ by Seth Mnookin and learn the real and WHOLE story behind these people’s vocal antics. Get your children vaccinated, it just might be his or her life you save!

    Posted by: Lara Lohne | February 26, 2011 at 02:35 PM

    I am not playing any games, but since you would like to speak the “truth” look at Lara’s response to me…she said she had not posted on that site since being banned in August 2010, clearly that was not true…see the date. Not really sure why she had to lie about that, maybe it was just an honest mistake on her part not recalling the date correctly, I won’t assume, because as you have proven assumptions are not always correct.

    Slurs against women??? Nice try…I AM a woman! and Mike Hunt is a 30+ year old joke! Lighten up Francis!

    Don’t worry your lil head about banning me…this site is of no interest to me.. Have a nice vaccinated life! 🙂

    Like

  440. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Kate,
    I didn’t say my daughter had autistic traits from four days old, I said that on Tuesday evening, at four days old, nearly four days after being given the hep-B vaccine, she started to scream, constantly and inconsolably, for four days and nights, falling asleep for a few hours at dawn and after screaming for hours in the day, to sleep two or three hours and wake to scream again. She refused to nurse, after having nursed enthusiastically the first few days, turning her head away from me to continue screaming. The doctor brushed it off. I was worried, but at that time I didn’t know that constant, inconsolable screaming for more than three hours is a warning sign of encephalitis. I told myself I had to gather my courage and hold and comfort her all night, and not leave her alone to scream. I did not know it was as serious as it was. When she stopped screaming on Saturday afternoon, I was relieved, and thought we were out of the woods, whatever the reason for the screaming had been. She nursed well, grew well, smiled, turned over, etc. etc. for months, but didn’t point, wave, clap, or babble. The doctor (a different one) brushed it off when I said I was worried about her not doing the things my checklists said she should be doing. Then, when she hit the one-year mark, he suddenly ordered me to get her hearing checked, go to speech therapy, consult an occupational therapist, etc. She started to say two words a little before she was eighteen months old, uh for up at the playground, and uff for dog. I had let her get the DTaP a t 2, 4, and 6 months, and insisted on separate appointments for two polios and three Hibs, so as not to overload her system. She got pertussis anyway at nine months, and coughed alarmingly for over a month, then recovered. I regret that I allowed her to get a DTaP booster at eighteen months, her two words disappeared and she didn’t say them or anything else again, not another word until she was 34 months old, when she started saying baby repeated syllables, baba, peepee, mama, and so on. Of course that was a sign of autism by then. I don’t know how severely she would have been affected if I hadn’t let her get the DTaP at 18 months. She ignored other children, like at the play group, until she was four, but by that time, if she approached other children, they rebuffed her. She greets her fellow junior girl scouts with a friendly hi, and, to a girl, they do not answer her at all. They scooch away from her if she sits next to them. She gives them their drinks and their cookies, and they don’t even say thank-you. They run around tagging each other, but give her a wide wide berth when she tries to join in. She’s in a special autism class at a public elementary school now. She was mainstreamed until November, but the school never did anything about her auditory processing disorder, and she can’t understand much of what goes on around her. The teacher got annoyed because she didn’t pay attention to her riveting presentations on the Smart Board, and the school had cut back on providing a para to be with her all the time, and the children were very mean to her. The school decided to put her in seclusion in Room M, alone with one para and some worksheets. The autism resource specialist was aghast when she learned of her seclusion, and recommended she be transferred to the special class at a school nine miles from here. She’s doing very well there, doing fifth-grade level work, except that she can’t express herself in original writing or speaking at all. But she can read passages and answer questions on them better and better. If you try to talk to her, she’ll probably just say Zhu zhu pets! loudly and enthusiastically, with no elaboration.
    I tried to find a program to help her with social skills, but there were none here. The Thompson Center was going to have a social skills class, so to speak, a demonstration by therapists, and I don’t know what else. I thought my daughter was not going to get anything at all out of a presentation, and they wanted $800 for ten hour-long classes. Since they couldn’t get enough interested parents to get their $10,000 to start a class, they cancelled it. They should have a facilitated play group, with trained therapists who can guide the children to say and do appropriate things depending on what comes up at the moment, but they don’t have anything like that here.

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  441. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    Kelly,
    Congratulations on solving the age-old conundrum which has baffled the finest minds for millenia. If there is no doctor in the forest to hear a tree fall, does the tree really fall? Thank you for bringing your inimitable fiat to this riddle by declaring the answer to be a resounding no!

    Like

  442. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    We went all through that yesterday, Kelly, most of us were completely satisfied with all the evidence presented proving that vaccines are replete with toxins that you allow to be injected into your body at your peril.

    Like

  443. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    What are you talking about cia? Doctors and trees?

    Like

  444. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Karen,
    Did you not read all the excellent posts yesterday elaborating on all the toxins that are in vaccines? Some of the posts were long and detailed, I don’t know how you could have missed them.

    Like

  445. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Still lying I see cia.

    You have yet to present any evidence that vaccines contain toxins of any kind, yet alone an abundance.

    To admit that you are satisfied with a fantasy rather than reality speaks volumes of your lack of critical thinking skills.

    Considering vaccines do not contain toxins, the risk of peril is really minimal, but thanks for your concern. When are you going to take care of your own house and look at the peril you are placing your daughter in?

    Like

  446. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    You mean the misinformation that was being spread by anti-vaxers?

    Yes, and followed by those long post of nonsense are the explanations of why it is nonsense. I’m not surprised you missed those posts though, cia. You seem to be blind to factual information.

    Like

  447. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Kate,
    The digestive system is set up to deal with getting nutrition from what is ingested and excreting what it does not need: it is an open system, as is also the respiratory system. Both have front line defenses to trap or kill invaders before they reach vital organs. The blood system was designed to be a closed system, with an elaborate filtering system to make sure that only approved substances get into the blood. When you inject antigens into it (and any substance foreign to the circulatory system is viewed as an antigen), the immune system reacts to it, often with dire consequences. All vaccines are designed to cause the immune system to react with inflammation, that’s what makes it produce antibodies, but the immune system often reacts excessively or chronically to the antigenic challenge, producing encephalitis and brain damage or autoimmune diseases like asthma, allergies, bowel disease, diabetes, etc. And neither doctors nor scientists have figured out how to explain to the immune system that the antigenic challenge of a vaccine is sort of just a joke. The immune system of many people has a very poor sense of humor.

    Like

  448. Kelly Works Here
    May 11, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    Kelly, If this isn’t your job sweetheart, you must be sucking off the government teat and collecting welfare… come up for air girl… get outside…

    Like

  449. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    but the immune system often reacts excessively or chronically to the antigenic challenge, producing encephalitis and brain damage or autoimmune diseases like asthma, allergies, bowel disease, diabetes, etc.

    What blows this little hypothesis out of the water is that this statement isn’t true. You made it up.

    Like

  450. May 11, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    It’s not so much whether she ignorant or not. She’s wrong. And she’s wrong in a way that is dangerous.

    Like

  451. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    I was talking about my ancestors before vaccines. I don’t know anything about the vaccine history of my family before the mid twentieth century. I think the people with the most vigorous, healthy immune systems may be the ones who react most drastically to vaccines: the very vigor which protected them for millenia is turned against them (us).

    Like

  452. May 11, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Why did you call your self a lemming? Why are you now calling others lemmings?

    I’m not scared by the package insert for vaccines. I’m informed. Why did you assume that people who read the insert would lean your way?

    It’s so easy to throw terms like “lemmings”. It’s very easy to try to scare people. It’s harder to have a real discussion.

    Like

  453. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Kelly,
    Illness serving to protect against more serious illness like cancer later in life:
    U. Abel: “Infekthaufigkeit und Krebsrisiko,” in: Deutsche medizinische Wochenschrift, no. 111, 1986, p. 1978-1981.
    Less ovarian cancer in women who had mumps, measles, and rubella as children.:
    MacGowan et al.: “The woman at risk of developing ovarian cancer,”in Gynaecological Oncology, no. 7, 1979, p. 325-344.
    Risk of cancer except for breast cancer falling by 20% for each childhood illness:
    H.U. Albonico et al.: Febrile infectious childhood diseases in the history of cancer patients and matched controls,” in Medical Hypotheses, no. 51, 1988, p. 315-320.
    Childhood illnesses in childhood reduce risk of MS later in life:
    J. Kesselring: “Zur Pathogenese der Multiplen Sklerose,”in Schweizerische medizinishche Wochenschrift, no. 20, 1990, p. 1083-1090.

    Like

  454. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    We don’t get any payments from the government, SSI or otherwise, but I’ll apply for her when she’s 18, the society which crippled her is going to have to support her.

    Like

  455. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Thank you, vetridani, I can’t believe it myself. Most of these people come from an uneducated background, but that doesn’t excuse their meanness.

    Like

  456. May 11, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    Are you really using “medical hypotheses” as a source? Didn’t the title of the journal give you a tip off (i.e. it’s presenting “hypotheses” not something evidence backed?)

    “Risk of cancer except for breast cancer falling by 20% for each childhood illness:”

    So, if a woman has measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox and diptheria, she would have zero chance of breast cancer? Did you consider what you wrote before typing?

    Did you read the paper? If so, why aren’t you reporting on this finding: “The finding that a FICD history is associated with an earlier cancer diagnosis is contrary to our hypothesis and needs further investigations for its biological interpretation.”

    So, women who had diseases in childhood got cancer at a younger age, at least according to this “study”.

    As long as we are discussing whether you read the paper, what do you think about the finding that breast cancer risk was *higher* for women who had measles, mumps, rubella or pertussis? That is, of course, if you ignore that the “p” values are all not significant. But, that’s what you did above, right?

    Where did you get the data for ovarian cancer from that paper? Please cite the paragraph. I didn’t have much time, but I don’t find the word fragment “ovar” in the main body of the paper. Your information seems to this reader to be fabricated.

    Like

  457. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    This is from my daughter’s IEP, for those of you who question whether she is autistic. This is what can happen if your child reacts to vaccines with brain damage.

    “Her disability adversely affects her educational performance. She has difficulty comprehending material she has read or heard, sequencing events from a story, and making inferences after reading. She has difficulty answering questions related to verbally presented information when the answer is not explicitly stated. She has difficulty with elaboration and verbal problem solving. She has significant difficulty maintaining attention during academic and non-academic tasks. When she loses focus during a task, she often repeats words or phrases that she finds funny, which is distracting to others. When she becomes off task and fixated on an idea, she has a difficult time abandoning the idea and returning to appropriate behavior. Due to a combination of language delays, difficulty maintaining attention, and repetitive thoughts and behaviors, she has difficulty retaining information she has heard and internalizing and recalling information required for following directions and learning vocabulary and subject content. Her pragmatic language and social deficits impact her ability to form relationships with peers. She does not independently seek out classmates to play with, invite others to join her in an activity , or inquire about peers’ interests. Socially inappropriate behaviors also interfere with developing meaningful peer relationships. Her adaptive behavior delays result in difficulty recalling and following school routines independently, performing self-care tasks without prompting or assistance, taking care of her materials, and generally functioning independently in the classroom setting. Her inability to understand appropriate social interactions (i.e. personal space, turn taking) and her occasional impulsive behaviors it her ability to participate safely in the regular physical education curriculum. She need a highly structured environment, adult support, and repetition of daily routines and gross motor skills. A reevaluation of – was completed and the diagnosis of autism was retained. The most recent evaluation team chose to conduct assessments to obtain more current data in regards to her cognitive, academic, and social functioning to help plan appropriate services for her. While all diagnostic options were considered for the current evaluation, the team felt that autism continues to be the most appropriate diagnosis for her. Depressed performance in areas such as language development, reading comprehension, and social/emotional functioning were determined to be the manifestation of an autism spectrum disorder rather than separate disabilities (i.e. language impairment, learning disability, emotional disturbance) Based on the current evaluation information and discussions at the eligibility staffing, she continues to meet criteria under the category of autism and continues to need and benefit from special education and related services. A review of medical records and an in-depth social history were completed as part of a previous evaluation which initially diagnosed autism and were not repeated for the current evaluation. In the area of communication, she demonstrates deficits in the capacity to use language for social communication, both receptive and expressive, and characteristics of her language involve both deviance and delay as demonstrated through record reviews, observations, rating scales, and standardized testing. Her overall language skills were assessed to fall within the borderline range. Weaknesses lie in her ability to follow complex verbal direction and in repeating complex sentences. She requires prompts to attend to verbal directions. Compared to other children her age, she has difficulty retaining what she has heard and retaining it in the correct sequence, as well as with making inferences to answer questions about what she has heard. Additionally, she has difficulty retelling a story she has heard when she is not provided with picture support. During conversation, she does not spontaneously elaborate on her answers, even when prompted directly to do so. She talks only when responding to direct questions. She does not spontaneously share information about herself or offer comments on something her conversational partner has said. She does not take conversational turns or use eye contact and has difficulty responding to nonverbal cues to make eye contact or to take a conversational turn. She does not understand or use age-appropriate humor and using an appropriate tone and volume when speaking is difficult for her. She also frequently demonstrates immediate and delayed echolalia which interferes with communication exchanges as well. In regards to her capacity to relate appropriately to people, events, or objects, the present evaluation reveals evidence of abnormalities in this area, as well as deficits in her capacity to form relationships with people. This deficit is evidenced by difficulty initiating and sustaining social interactions. At times, she demonstrates some odd behaviors (e.g., flapping, finger play, etc.), but she appears to be beginning to develop some control over this. She engages in socially inappropriate behaviors (e.g., picking her nose and ears, talking and mumbling to herself, repeating words and phrases, giggling) without regard to how peers may perceive them. She often demonstrates repetitive thoughts and behaviors which prevent her from focusing on the task at hand. She has difficulty following rules when engaged in group activities and usually withdraws from group activities. She prefers to be alone. At times she also has difficulty controlling her feelings. She has difficulty with changes in home and classroom routines and transitioning between activities due to rigidly requiring predictability in her environment and fixating on certain tasks. Furthermore, with respect to her development rate and sequence, as documented in her previous evaluation, she has had delays, arrests, or regression in social and learning skills as evidenced by a lack of age-appropriate social knowledge and functioning, self-regulation, and reading comprehension skills. She has exhibited areas of precocious development with other skill areas at normal or depressed rates. Her fluid reasoning skills, basic reading skills, writing mechanics, and math achievement are considered average to above average despite significant delays in many other areas of development, including higher-order language, reading comprehension, adaptive skills, and social/emotional/behavioral functioning. Finally, she exhibits deficits in responses to sensory stimuli, as documented through previous evaluation and current observations and teacher reports. Her behavior can range from hyperactive to unresponsive to people and objects and can alternate between these states. She is frequently distracted by her own thoughts and by environmental distractions. She has difficulty sustaining attention and has difficulty self-regulating her behaviors and emotions. She frequently touches objects. The team concluded that her autism is not the result of an emotional disability. This evaluation report also reflects that her eligibility determination was not based on a lack of appropriate instruction in reading, including phonemic awareness, phonics, vocabulary development, reading fluency and oral reading skills, and reading comprehension strategies. Finally, this eligibility determination was also not based on a lack of appropriate instruction in math or limited English proficiency.

    Like

  458. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    The school wanted me to put my daughter on Ritalin, but I refused and will always refuse to put her on any psychotropic drug.

    Like

  459. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    All of this is irrelevant until you establish that her learning disabilities are caused by vaccines. Current scientific literature does not support your claim.

    Like

  460. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    I am uncertain what is so despicable about my post. I believe I was pointing out to cia that she isn’t as alone as she believes she is. Tax payers fund her child’s education. While she may not be getting SSI now, if she had a proper diagnosis she could and it isn’t as much of a pittance as you claim. My son’s SSI enables my household to have a home, something that wouldn’t be possible without it since I am unable to work while he requires special care. As of right now, there are no medications approved to treat autism, only co-morbid conditions such as epilepsy, ADHD, OCD, acute behavioral problems that can interfere with the child’s ability to learn, etc. Special diets do nothing for autism, they are only beneficial if the child has co-morbid gastrointestinal issues or food allergies which have nothing to do with autism, but are their own separate issues. Not all autistics do, my son doesn’t so he doesn’t need any special diet. Most therapies for the treatment of autism are covered by medical insurance in most states. That is therapies which are recognized as actually helping in the treatment of autism and other ASDs. Unfortunately for cia, proper medical diagnosis is required before insurance will cover them.

    There are numerous people, millions actually, helping her and her daughter, even if she chooses not to acknowledge it because she doesn’t see the cash handed to her directly, there are a lot of people and services out there who are there to support families and care givers of autistic individuals. Many of these services are provided free to the families, funded by the state, which is again funded by tax payers. Maybe she chooses not to utilize these services. That being the case she hardly has room to complain about being alone since she isn’t seeking assistance that is available to her. Again, they would require a formal diagnosis. So many doors would be open to her, if her daughter truly has an ASD, but since she refuses to get the diagnosis, those services are not there for her. That is nobody’s fault but cia’s.

    You are correct in that I don’t know anything about this woman or her child in reality. But in the months that I’ve been following this blog, her comments often times contradict each other. First she said her daughter got autism from the hep b given at birth. Then she said she got it from the DTaP given after she was a year old. Now she tells us her child hasn’t even been officially diagnosed with autism, therefore, her words tell me all I need to know. She is not the only mother of a child with autism and she is by far in the minority as far as her beliefs about vaccines go. So the reason I don’t know anything about her, or her child, is simply because she keeps changing the reality of her situation. That isn’t my fault, because I can only know a person based on what they show me, and she has only shown me dishonesty.

    If that makes me despicable, you have a very twisted idea of what is despicable and what is not. It’s OK for her to change her story and make up information, but it’s not OK for me to point out when she is wrong about things that maybe she doesn’t know about since her child has no diagnosis, but which I know a great deal about because my son has been properly diagnosed and I have chosen to take advantage of any and all services that are available to me? That makes a lot of sense and speaks volumes as to your own character. You prefer a liar, well, given your antics with your ‘husband’ I shouldn’t be surprised.

    I have no problem meeting people face to face to discuss my position. I have done it numerous times with other people who assume I’m anti vaccine just because my son has autism. They are genuinely shocked to find out I am otherwise. Not because pro-vax autism parents are in the minority, but because the anti-vax parents are so loud about their position and so busy blaming something or someone, that their stories tend to be the only ones people here about. The majority of autism parents are focused on helping their child/children with autism which is a full time job. I take advantage of times when my son is at school, playing quietly in his room, having his music chill out time or watching a movie to post my feelings on the subject because there needs to be a voice of reason resounding in the autism community and since I have time to do so, I do it. This particular issues hits home for me because I was raised anti-vax and when it was my turn to have children, what I learned about what I had been taught and believed all my life previously made me so angry, but wizened me to do the right thing by my children and get them vaccinated.

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  461. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    You said she didn’t even have autism.

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  462. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    Did anyone say zero chance? I think not. It was a reduced chance.

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  463. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    Veridani,
    I don’t want you to have a stroke, but you might want to take a look at the article Christina put on the other day, about using logic to arrive at pro-vaccine decisions. Lara in the comments said you should ignore persistent, inconsolable screaming in infants, as that was never a sign of encephalitis, but only of blue-baby syndrome, and that I had probably shaken my baby and that was what had caused her problems.

    Like

  464. cia parker
    May 11, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    Veridani,
    Look at “Evaluating Vaccines Requires Critical Thinking”!

    Like

  465. Kelly
    May 11, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    You said she wasn’t diagnosed with autism. I don’t care if she has autism or not. Learning disabilities and autism are not a “vaccine injury”. Your daughter’s disabilities are totally irrelevant to the conversation, but you tried to make them relevant by lying and describing her as “vaccine injured”. She is not.

    Like

  466. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Slurs against women??? Nice try…I AM a woman! and Mike Hunt is a 30+ year old joke! Lighten up Francis!

    Women are incapable of slurs against women? And what, exactly, is the statute of limitations on mysogyny?

    Like

  467. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    But, you were the one who brought up seatbelts, which made no sense.

    It’s not hard to follow, Stephen.

    Initially, you asked why you personally knew more vaccinated people with measles.

    Later, you changed your question to why any vaccinated person ever got measles.

    I thought it was an absurd question, so I did not answer your question directly, but rather asked you a question to point out the absurdity. Specifically, why any seatbelted person ever got in an accident. It is absurd to think that any preventative measure, from a seatbelt to a vaccine, is 100% effective.

    Apparently this indirect answer was lost on you, as you diverged into a tangent about measles vaccine safety that had nothing to do with my answer or your question.

    well, let’s see you provide the mathmatical equation on how you got ‘thousandfold.’

    Sure. Here is the math. It is easier to understand than the seatbelt thing.

    Measles causes encephalitis in roughly one per one thousand cases.

    Measles vaccine causes encephalitis in roughly one per one million cases.

    1,000,000/1,000 = 1,000

    Encephalitis is a thousandfold more common from the disease than the vaccine.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#risk

    I pray that all goes well with anyone you choose to vaccinate. (Are you going to hate on me now that I mentioned I pray too?)

    Of course not – that would be difficult to explain to my Bible study group, wouldn’t it? However, I’m tempted to “hate on you” for your stereotyping. But instead of hating, why don’t we both pray for global measles eradication? Then no one needs to undergo the risk of the disease OR the vaccine.

    Like

  468. Lara Lohne
    May 11, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Actually, cia, what I said is that all babies cry inconsolably, it is normal and has never been one of the things that requires emergency room visits. I also never said anything about ignoring a crying baby. I never said anything about blue baby syndrome, I don’t even know what that is, that was all you. This inconsolable crying that all babies do is called by hospital staff “Purple crying” and they train new parents how to deal with it because it will happen. It is part of their educating parents about the dangers of shaken baby syndrome, which is very real and causes the things you say your daughter received because of vaccines. I didn’t ever say probably you shook your baby, I said perhaps, and since we weren’t there, we don’t know and your word can hardly be relied upon because of your previously demonstrated unreliability. Please stop twisting my words and quit with the straw-man attack on me. Your words have been weighed, they have been measured and they have been found wanting. Deal with it.

    Like

  469. Nathan
    May 11, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    Cia, you should learn to be conservative about what medical and personal information you post online about your child, for her sake. This is more important that you or your agenda.

    Like

  470. Lara Lohne
    May 12, 2012 at 3:16 am

    cia,

    This doesn’t look like any IEP I’ve seen before. Granted my son has only been getting them for the past three years and isn’t in elementary school yet, but generally, they list goals that should be worked on (which are agreed upon by therapists, educators and parents together) based on what he CAN do, not a list of everything he can’t do or what difficulties he has. This just looks like a list of what she does, how she is disruptive, how her disability effects her ability to learn. It doesn’t even state that her disability is ASD, which is listed all over my son’s IEP. If this is an IEP, and if it is specifically for an ASD child, I’d sit down and have a serious discussion with her educators, because the whole point of an IEP is to establish goals that she will be able to accomplish, which will lead to her progressing closer to the functionality level of her peers.

    Like

  471. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 5:01 am

    Why do you think random insults are a valid substitute for real evidence? Are you a sockpuppet for Mike Hunt? It is quite telling when instead of actually answering questions and providing real verifiable scientific evidence you respond with spurious accusations.

    Like

  472. Kelly Works For Big Pharma...
    May 12, 2012 at 8:21 am

    Chris, anyone that knows anything about these types of message boards knows that they’re a complete waste of time and a circle jerk. You ask for evidence, the anti vaccine people post their evidence , and you people magically “debunk” it. Nobody here is debunking anything. It’s a total waste of time. So I come to these places like this and point out the absurdity in them. For instance, Kelly insisted she isn’t paid to be here and claims she’s “debunked” that statement simply because she said so. That’s INSANITY! I’ve also found that on these message boards, when one of your own says something completely absurd, like Kelly, you ignore it. You people feed each others mental illness. And make NO mistake, to spend ALL your time here, if you aren’t being paid, is a little crazy. So which is it, is Kelly paid, or is she sucking off the government teat and collecting welfare. It has to be one or the other. It’s fairly obvious she’s being paid…Oh and Chris… I am Mike Hunt. I’m all the absurd names you see… genius!

    Like

  473. Kelly Works For Big Pharma...
    May 12, 2012 at 8:24 am

    Chris, PROVE that my accusations are spurious. Let Kelly PROVE she doesn’t work here, because common sense says she does. She’s here all the time… she’s either working or sitting home and sucking off the government teat.

    Like

  474. Lawrence
    May 12, 2012 at 9:33 am

    @cia- agreed, medical records and information is confidential for a reason. This could have reprecussions down the line if potential employers or others run searches on either you or your daughter (which is pretty much standard practice nowadays).

    Like

  475. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Here’s a newsflash for ALL of you who so vehemently defend vaccines, the pharmaceutical companies, and the government… people who are now questioning not only the professed safety, but also the overall validity of vaccines do not care what you think. You see, we are just paying attention to the new studies (scientific or hypothesized) that say vaccines may be causing, not only immediate injury, but LONG TERM negative side effects, that lead to a laundry list of medical conditions down the road. (which brings me to all of your points that vaccines are cheaper than treating the illness… what about all the long term conditions these vaccines may be causing that create patients for life dependent on drugs?…there’s the big profit!)We think they need to be studied more and for longer terms BEFORE they are put on the market, i.e. Guardasil. And most of all we feel the government (and their uncomfortably cozy relationship with Big Pharma) should not dictate to parents that they MUST vaccinate their children. The burden for proving complete safety is on THEM! I don’t want to see studies that compare a new vaccine to an old vaccine, I want to see long term epidemiological studies. I want to see studies of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. I want to see the “fast tracking” if you can pay the fee, done away with. I do not think we are getting the full story, look how many drugs are rushed to market only to be pulled within 1-2 years after they start injuring or KILLING people. I try to read all information, not just information that supports my suspicions, I believe in medicine, I just think it has taken a wrong turn towards profit over safety and efficacy and I am NOT willing to gamble with the unknown when it comes to my children. If you feel confident in the medical procedure of vaccination, then you should by all means vaccinate, but for those of us who do not feel we have enough unbiased, long term information, we will either choose to customize our children’s schedule or not vaccinate at all. Freedom of choice is our right. And if you want to change someone’s way of thinking you should change your approach… Lawrence is the most civil person on here, he tries to inform, not shove things down your throat if you don’t have the same views he does. You will never change anyone’s mind by mocking or completely dismissing their opinion or viewpoint. This you must know..right? How many people have you brought to your way of thinking by these tactics? Citations please! See, it’s off putting. So as I am saying above…I do not think my words will make any of you take pause and reconsider your tactics, I am just expressing my opinion.

    Like

  476. Lawrence
    May 12, 2012 at 9:42 am

    @Mike or Vetridani – sock-puppeting is discouraged normally, trying to make a point using your ‘nym is pretty childish.

    “Common Sense” is an uncommon virtue in the anti-vaccine community. They continue to parrot long debunked myths about vaccines, ignore scientific evidence (regardless of the source), and champion activists and doctors who have been proven to have promoted fraudulent research, pursued “autism therapies” like chemical castration, industrial chelation, and stem cell therapies, without a scrap of evidence that they actual work, and immediately fall back on the “Pharma-shill” gambit to attack their opponents, when their “evidence” is shown to be nothing but smoke and mirrors.

    Todd’s anti-anti-vaccine website is a well researched and citation-rich debunking of all of the common anti-vaccine myths – the “toxin” gambit was also thoroughly debunked on this very topic. Feel free to continue to “have fun,” but this entire movement is having very real, very dangerous, and serious reprecussions on the general health and well-being of both children and adults – the recent outbreaks in Europe and the US are serious indicators that there is a problem.

    I would hope, that over time, a rational debate could emerge, using real evidence and the overwhelming body of science – but you have made it painfully obvious that, for the anti-vaccine subset, it will not occur – to the detriment of all us.

    Kelly Works For Big Pharma… :
    Chris, PROVE that my accusations are spurious. Let Kelly PROVE she doesn’t work here, because common sense says she does. She’s here all the time… she’s either working or sitting home and sucking off the government teat.

    Like

  477. cia parker
    May 12, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Thank you, Lawrence, I thought about that, and you’re probably right, but I thought people should know the sequence of events in our case, so that even though it’s not proven that the screaming for four days was encephalitis, it would fit in with the facts of what happened, and it’s not proven that the assumed encephalitis caused her autism, but I believe it did, and that would also fit logically into the sequence of events. I thought if people saw details on what autism in her case means concretely, and how it is what you would expect severe brain damage in the first week to produce, it might make them think several times before permitting a vaccine like hep-B to be given to their baby. My daughter is neither a best case nor a worst case scenario, she’s sweet, helpful, and cheerful, but you can see that she struggles with significant impairments that I wish she didn’t. She’s lonely, and I wish your friends would tell me how to embrace her loneliness and isolation. I thought it would be good if I could spare another child and another family from experiencing what we have. We are going to my daughter’s First Communion Mass in an hour, and I swear to God that it is not my intention to malevolently persuade families to condemn their children to death by not vaccinating them. Quite the contrary. I appreciate you advice the other day, and your willingness to set aside our differences to try to help us.

    Like

  478. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 9:50 am

    @ Lawrence please read my comment above… I am sorry I was not swayed by the site you sent, but I am glad it validates your beliefs and makes you comfortable with your decisions. I will not trust studies nowadays without following the money…I want to know who funds them and why they fund them. The waters have been muddied with medical research, it’s unfortunate for us that we have to look behind the scenes all the time to see if their are ulterior motives, but that’s just how it is…it’s responsible to question, so I do.

    Again, I do appreciate your approach, you seem like a nice person. And as far as “Mike” goes, he is my husband and does not take kindly to people calling his wife ignorant, arrogant, and a liar. I am sure you would feel the same about your wife…

    Like

  479. lilady
    May 12, 2012 at 9:51 am

    Too bad that this blog is not heavily moderated like the notorious anti-vaccine websites are. People who know the science of immunology and who actually are in medical fields are not welcome on those sites.

    Vetridani…how many more vile sock puppets will you employ to attack other posters here? And troll, none of us think that the use of suggestive or downright filthy language is “cute”. As a woman I take great offense at your language…take yourself offline or post your filth on an anti-vaccine website.

    CIA Parker: Your long harangues, including what you purport to be your daughter’s IEP, show just how truly and utterly devious you are.

    You posted a comment at Kelly (#463) with some “citations”. Sullivan (#464) read your citations and made some specific comments and asked you some specific questions. Why didn’t you reply? Instead of replying, you again change the subject by the posting of a bogus IEP for your child. Why should we believe anything you post here? You are a known liar, who insists that she and here children were injured by vaccines.

    The mere fact that you stated that your child had encephalitis following immunization and never had a physician who diagnosed that condition proves you are a liar. Your child never had encephalitis…which is a medical emergency and requires extensive treatment in a hospital. Just because you conjure up stories in your mind which we have disproved, additional “stories” that you post here, are not going to be believed.

    Seriously CIA, get yourself some help from a mental health professional…you need that help for your own sake and for the sake of your children.

    Like

  480. cia parker
    May 12, 2012 at 9:53 am

    You didn’t read the word autistic in at least three different places in it? They said autism was the best diagnosis for her, for the reasons they stated. There were goals stated after the part I wrote, but I thought it was more important that people see what they mean when they talk about language and social impairment. This is what awaits one child in fifty if they vaccinate as per schedule.

    Like

  481. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Cia, please consider leaving this site, they have no compassion for your and your child’s story, and it makes me feel bad that you keep wanting to change their minds…you won’t. Stop trying and go somewhere you can get support. You are really just wasting your time here. Seek people who want to offer you solutions, not mock and berate you every chance they get. Good luck to you and your child and I hope you take my advice…this is not a healthy place for you. 🙂

    Like

  482. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 10:28 am

    I am posting my above comment again…for lillady. Her last comment displays what I speak of here… and lilady get off the Mike Hunt issue, it was a cryptic joke, relating to the silliness of the parody of the name not the connotation. Save you women’s lib sermon for church…it falls on deaf ears here. My husband and I know what we meant by it, you can twist it all you want, WE DON”T CARE…sorry.

    Here’s a newsflash for ALL of you who so vehemently defend vaccines, the pharmaceutical companies, and the government… people who are now questioning not only the professed safety, but also the overall validity of vaccines do not care what you think. You see, we are just paying attention to the new studies (scientific or hypothesized) that say vaccines may be causing, not only immediate injury, but LONG TERM negative side effects, that lead to a laundry list of medical conditions down the road. (which brings me to all of your points that vaccines are cheaper than treating the illness… what about all the long term conditions these vaccines may be causing that create patients for life dependent on drugs?…there’s the big profit!)We think they need to be studied more and for longer terms BEFORE they are put on the market, i.e. Guardasil. And most of all we feel the government (and their uncomfortably cozy relationship with Big Pharma) should not dictate to parents that they MUST vaccinate their children. The burden for proving complete safety is on THEM! I don’t want to see studies that compare a new vaccine to an old vaccine, I want to see long term epidemiological studies. I want to see studies of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. I want to see the “fast tracking” if you can pay the fee, done away with. I do not think we are getting the full story, look how many drugs are rushed to market only to be pulled within 1-2 years after they start injuring or KILLING people. I try to read all information, not just information that supports my suspicions, I believe in medicine, I just think it has taken a wrong turn towards profit over safety and efficacy and I am NOT willing to gamble with the unknown when it comes to my children. If you feel confident in the medical procedure of vaccination, then you should by all means vaccinate, but for those of us who do not feel we have enough unbiased, long term information, we will either choose to customize our children’s schedule or not vaccinate at all. Freedom of choice is our right. And if you want to change someone’s way of thinking you should change your approach… Lawrence is the most civil person on here, he tries to inform, not shove things down your throat if you don’t have the same views he does. You will never change anyone’s mind by mocking or completely dismissing their opinion or viewpoint. This you must know..right? How many people have you brought to your way of thinking by these tactics? Citations please! See, it’s off putting. So as I am saying above…I do not think my words will make any of you take pause and reconsider your tactics, I am just expressing my opinion.

    Like

  483. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Post these new studies that show vaccines are causing long term problems.

    What you think is irrelevant, especially after your little game with your husband. You have demonstrated that your level of thinking is that of a teenager, which explains why your lack the ability to assess risk. Teenagers also think they are wise beyond their knowledge base and take unnecessary risks because they don’t think those risks apply to them.

    Whether you like it or not, informed decisions are based on information not beliefs. Parents want to make an informed choice and asking for information to support your claims is not rude or an attack. You perceive it as such because it threatens your beliefs and reveals the weakness of your position.

    Like

  484. Kelly Works For Big Pharma...
    May 12, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Relax lil porker… get outside and get some sun (and vitamin D) today… and Kelly, what about coming here to point out how absurd people like you are is so wrong. I mean seriously, you pretended that you debunk the obvious fact that you’re employed by big pharma by saying… wait for it… ” I don’t work for big pharma, that’s debunked” Again, this is a circle jerk. NOTHING will get accomplished here. You people are changing NOTHING. You’re swaying NOBODY. You talk in circles and go round and round and NOTHING will be accomplished. You’re wasting your time. I’m enjoying myself, much like people enjoying looking at monkeys in their cages at the zoo.

    Like

  485. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 11:44 am

    No Kelly…I believe what YOU think is irrelevant, as I stated above. Geez, if you want to try and prove me wrong, CHANGE YOUR GESTAPO TACTICS! Naming calling, dismissing…it won’t work. Stop asking everyone to post citations and just prove YOUR argument, and answer some of the simple questions that are asked of you. My beliefs can’t be threatened…we are not talking religion here, I feel I am not getting complete unbiased facts from Big Pharma based on their past track record, i.e. rushing unsafe drugs to market. Example below:

    “Abbott Laboratories has pleaded guilty and agreed to pay $1.6 billion to resolve its criminal and civil liability arising from the company’s unlawful promotion of the prescription drug Depakote, the U.S. Justice Department said Monday.”

    http://worldofdtcmarketing.com/and-so-the-residual-fallout-from-avandia-starts/business-of-the-drug-industry/

    There are far too many stories like these for me to have complete faith in what Big Pharma says…call me crazy!

    I don’t know what any of your backrounds and/or training are, so therefore I choose not to listen to your interpretation of Pharma funded studies saying vaccines are safe. So stop trying. 🙂

    Like

  486. lilady
    May 12, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Vetridani: You and your sock puppets and/or your husband have repeatedly attacked posters here. For once take responsibility for your actions. I feel sorry for you if you don’t have the maturity to understand how your vile remarks disparage all women.

    You seem to think that the more accusations you make about a poster’s affiliation (Pharma Shill Gambit)…the more you can discourage people from posting here. You are wrong. So just what are your affiliations, Vetridani? I’ve mentioned before that I am a retired public health nurse who investigated vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks. I also worked in a public health clinic as a clinician and, I only post under one ‘nym here and other science/medical blogs. I also “lurk” at all the notorious anti-vaccine websites…so I know exactly where you are getting your “information” from.

    You continually post remarks that infer that you are self-educated in the science of immunology and epidemiology. So where are those studies you claim to have read and you claim to comprehend…that show long term effects from vaccines?

    Like

  487. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    I haven’t posted any argument, vetridani. Do you know what an argument is? I’m simply correcting the mistakes that anti-vaxers make. I have yet to see an anti-vaxer post that does not contain misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies.

    For example, you and your husband are the one doing the name-calling by saying I’m pharma shill. You have provided zero evidence to support that claim. You are using it as a distraction tactic to try to hid the fact that your claims are unsubstantiated.

    You then say that we are not talking about religion but you don’t have faith in Big Pharma. Faith is a term of religion. It’s also a strawman, because nobody is asking you to have “faith”. Look at the evidence for yourself and make an informed choice. I’ve posted this link several times for websites that have reliable information on vaccines: http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

    You then post an irrelevant newspaper article to support your position. Which vaccines are made by Abbott Laboratories, vetridani? And what does marketing violations have to do with the safety and efficiency of vaccines?

    You are right when you say you don’t know what my background and training is, which is why you are lying when you say you know for a “fact” that I’m pharma shill. I’m also not asking you to take my word on anything about vaccines. Everything I post is backed-up with evidence.

    If you don’t want to participate in an intellectually honest discussion about vaccines, perhaps you should stop posting here. I’m not trying to convince you of anything because I know you have made a faith-based decision that won’t be swayed. I’m trying to show other people the weaknesses of your arguments so that they can make an informed choice for themselves.

    Like

  488. lilady
    May 12, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Vetridani: Depakote is an anticonvulsant. The subject of this thread is vaccines.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local/illinois&id=8651696

    Abbott negotiated a settlement, because it was found that there was a concerted effort to encourage physicians to prescribe the drug for mental and developmental disorders, for which the drug has not been proven to ameliorate.

    Again, your analogy is baseless. Where are the studies that show any vaccine has been marketed to prevent other diseases, except the disease that the vaccine was developed for?

    Still waiting for any citations from you about the long-term effects of any vaccine.

    Like

  489. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    I read thing like this…

    http://www.relfe.com/vaccine.html

    and it makes me think and question…go figure!

    I have been a medical sales rep…I’ve been on the inside and have seen and been taught the tactics first hand. It really opened my eyes. We are really taught how to dupe people like yourself… with lunches, donations to you causes, game tickets, continuing ed dinners, swag like pens, uniforms, notebooks, calendars, all that crap that medical staff love. It’s easy.

    Like

  490. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    *things

    Like

  491. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    The article and 1.6 BILLION dollar judgement against Abbot is about how trustworthy Big Pharma is…they LIE and HIDE facts and negative studies. Any opinions on Guardasil?? and what about the other link with numerous links to supporting studies??? Trust if you must, I choose to wait for more info…that’s all. 🙂

    Like

  492. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    this was included in the other VACCINE related link I posted: Sorry if there are any annoying page breaks…I’m not a pro…

    The medical literature has a surprising number of studies documenting vaccine failure. Measles, mumps, small pox, polio and Hib outbreaks have all occurred in vaccinated populations. [11, 12, 13, 14 ,15] In 1989 the CDC reported: “Among school-aged children, [measles] outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98 percent.[16] [They] have occurred in all parts of the country, including areas that had not reported measles for years.”[17] The CDC even reported a measles outbreak in a documented 100 percent vaccinated population. [18]

    A study examining this phenomenon concluded, “The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons.”[19] A more recent study found that measles vaccination “produces immune suppression which contributes to an increased susceptibility to other infections.”[19a]

    These studies suggest that the goal of complete immunization is actually counterproductive, a notion underscored by instances in which epidemics followed complete immunization of entire countries. Japan experienced yearly increases in small pox following the introduction of compulsory vaccines in 1872. By 1892, there were 29,979 deaths, and all had been vaccinated. [20]

    Early in this century, the Philippines experienced their worst smallpox epidemic ever after 8 million people received 24.5 million vaccine doses; the death rate quadrupled as a result. [21] In 1989, the country of Oman experienced a widespread polio outbreak six months after achieving complete vaccination.[22] In the U.S. in 1986, 90% of 1300 pertussis cases in Kansas were “adequately vaccinated.” [23] 72% of pertussis cases in the 1993 Chicago outbreak were fully up to date with their vaccinations.[24]

    TRUTH #2

    “Evidence suggests that vaccination is an unreliable means of preventing disease.”

    Like

  493. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    I’ve never received any incentive from pharmaceutical companies to counter anti-vax misinformation. Just because you are easily duped by dishonest techniques and like to try to mislead others using that training, doesn’t mean everyone else is just as dishonest as you.

    It’s really sad that you cannot analyze that link and see the blatantly obvious errors it.

    Myth #1 is based on an incorrect use of VAERS data
    Myth #2 is based on the nirvana fallacy. Just because a vaccine isn’t 100% effective doesn’t mean it is useless.
    Myth #3 is based on a misrepresentation of the actual data
    Myth #4 is based on the fallacy “argument from ignorance”. Just because we don’t know precisely how vaccines provide immunity, doesn’t mean they don’t provide immunity.
    Myth #5 is based on misrepresenting the seriousness of vaccine preventable diseases
    Myth #6 is based on misrepresenting the actual data
    Myth #7 is the toxin gambit and assuming correlation equals causation
    Myth #8 thinks homeopathy is a viable alternative to preventing disease when homeopathy is nothing but magic water.
    Myth #9 is a strawman. Nobody denies vaccine exemptions are available.
    Myth #10 is based on misrepresenting the data and then a variation the pharma shill gambit. It’s pretty foolish to think that a writer with no medical training would know what doctors are taught or that vaccine scientists are ignorant about vaccines.

    So there isn’t a single correct statement in that website. You should read that and think. Try to confirm what this author says for yourself. Is his thinking logically sound? If his premises are false and his logic flawed, you can dump that website in the trash and move on.

    Like

  494. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Addressed the errors in the above in this comment below: https://shotofprevention.com/2012/05/10/moms-who-vax-are-speaking-out/#comment-9042

    The major flaw is that the author evoked the nirvana fallacy by thinking that if vaccines are not 100% effective, they are not effective at all.

    Like

  495. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    ^ says Kelly… all you do is say, fallacy, strawman, misrepresentation, gambit, debunked, correlation doesn’t equal causation…yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Doctors are TAUGHT about vaccines FROM SALES REPS! I have lived it! What about the excerpt I posted that contains actual reports from the CDC? See smart people know EVERYTHING can be twisted to support and argument, that’s how attorneys stay in business. Which by the way Kelly, maybe that’s your calling…

    Please stop talking to me now..I WANT to get out of here!!

    Like

  496. Pasty White Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Kelly you haven’t done anything to PROVE you aren’t a tool for big pharma… Logic would dictate that since you’re here FAR too often, you must be getting paid… if you aren’t, you must be a a complete shut-in with no life. It’s pretty easy to figure out. I hope you are getting paid, because if you aren’t, yours is no doubt a sad existence. A life apparently spent doing NOTHING… on a vaccine message board no less. It’s pathetic really.

    Like

  497. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    vetridani, I’m very sorry you don’t understand what critical thinking is all about. There are two parts to an argument: the premises and how the premises are put together. In order to have a valid conclusion, the premises have to be correct and the premises have to be put together logically. An argument can be invalidated if either or both or shown to be incorrect.

    So by showing the errors in logic, I’ve discredited your argument.

    I was not taught about vaccines from sales reps. And last I checked, sales reps are not employed as professors at medical schools.

    If you want to make an informed choice about vaccines, you have to first verify the premise and then confirm that the premises support the conclusion. When I ask for you to provide the citation to support your claims, I’m verifying the premise.

    I have yet to see an anti-vaxer provide a valid argument against vaccination. The premises are either incorrect or they fail in the logic.

    Like

  498. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    I don’t have to prove that I’m not a tool for big pharma, Patsy. You have to prove that I am.

    I enjoy educating people about vaccines. I think children deserve the best shot at life that they can get. I don’t think that is doing nothing. If you think looking out for people is a sad existence and doing nothing than I feel sad for you. I have a very full and beautiful life, thank you.

    Furthermore, even if I am a paid shill, that does not invalidate what I have to say when I correct the mistakes of others. Check out the links for yourself, don’t take my word for it. Your children deserve no less.

    Like

  499. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    I’d believe what The Who has to say before WHO! hahahhahaha! Sorry…I thought that was funny… 🙂

    Like

  500. Pasty White Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    No Kelly, Logic dictates that given the enormous amount of time you spend here, you are paid for your services… if not, you’re a shut-in who exists on a vaccine message board. This is simple stuff sweety… You can’t even use a different name because of your rotten demeanor. I’d bet you can’t that anti-social personality of yours off.

    Like

  501. vetridani
    May 12, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    It’s pasty as in pasty white because you are indoors on a computer all day.

    Like

  502. lilady
    May 12, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    Vetridani “claims” to have been a “medical sales rep” who was “on the inside”…ha…ha…ha.

    You’ve only proven yourself to be totally uneducated in any of the basic sciences. Perhaps you sold “supplements” or “herbs”, Vetridani…where your “qualifications” of obfuscation, bogus science, pseudoscience and the like are needed. Try again, Vetridani.

    Like

  503. Kelly
    May 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Oh, another one of your socks, vetridani. Sorry, I tend to believe people are honest, but it is just you astroturfing again. HaHa, you got me! I bet you are so proud of yourself with your childish pranks instead engaging in intellectually honest discussions preferred by grown-ups. Well, if that is the image you would like others to see of you, knock yourself out.

    Like

  504. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    The Morphing Sock Puppet:

    Chris, anyone that knows anything about these types of message boards knows that they’re a complete waste of time and a circle jerk. You ask for evidence, the anti vaccine people post their evidence , and you people magically “debunk” it.

    Prove it. Show that any of your friends, or yourself under on of the many names you are posting under have presenting any real evidence. Show me where any of my questions have been answered honestly, sincerely and with real verifiable scientific data.

    And you know what I mean by real evidence, I have explained it many times.

    By the way there no way to “debunk” random personal anecdotes because there is no way to show that they are actually true. Just like the reason no one who know how to deal with real statistical data takes VAERS stories at face value.

    Nobody here is debunking anything. It’s a total waste of time.

    Then why are you and your sock puppets spending so much time here? Has your high school let out for summer vacation already?

    Perhaps it is not too late for you to sign up for a class at the local community college, high school kids do it all the time. Take a course in statistics and another one in simple logic. Then you might understand why your “prove he/she is not paid by pharma!” bit is spurious.

    Like

  505. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    I don’t believe Kelly is the one with the anti-social personality. You are the one who is spending lots of time here under various names. So when do you graduate from high school?

    Like

  506. Chris is no psychiatrist...
    May 12, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Chris, it’s entertaining… You people take yourselves soooo seriously and meanwhile you’re all doing nothing but participating in a circle jerk on an internet message board.
    It’s pathetic, and I enjoy mocking you for it.
    Say hello to your wife and my kids…
    Chris, watch me act like you mental cases~ You don’t believe Kelly has a personality disorder… cite your evidence,Chris. Show me your credentials. Are you a psychiatrist?
    LOL
    See how stupid and what a complete waste of time this game is…

    Like

  507. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    First you tell who you usually post as, and answer my questions. Because as a person who constantly changes their ‘nym you have shown yourself to be dishonest and there is no point in dealing with you.

    Until you answer any of the questions I have asked multiple times on this thread, you will be ignored.

    Like

  508. Pissy Chrissy
    May 12, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    Chris… I didn’t come here to answer or ask questions…. just to point out the absurdity and what an exercise in futility this actually is. The fact that you people, over two days, can’t figure out that I’m here for the sole purpose of mocking you and pointing out how ridiculous it is that a) you’re posting here for pay or b) posting here all day long for NOTHING, which makes you people either shills, or losers that need to go outside a little. There is no gray area. Normal people don’t do what you people are doing. Mental cases, Shut-ins, that’s who does what you people are doing. If I were changing my name for the purpose of hiding who I am, your point might have validity. But It’s plainly obvious to anyone… who hasn’t been vaccinated, that I’m kidding around. Vaccines robbed you schmucks of your sense of humor.

    Like

  509. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    Actually you are providing a perfect opportunity to see how those who do not have facts or data work. You mock, make baseless accusations, change user names, act immaturely and constantly lie.

    This shows that your position that vaccines are dangerous has absolutely no foundation in reality.

    Normal people who have the data and sincerely want to protect children from harm do not need to resort to lies and mockery. And you really need to find your local library and start reading the books I listed, you might actually learn something.

    Like

  510. Chris the liar...
    May 12, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    Chris, if you feel that ” normal” people spend all their free time on a computer message board, we define normal differently. As far as “my position” I never stated a position. I said that none of you people could make me do anything that I didn’t want done to my kids so this argument for is irrelevant. I’ll do what I want. Who sincerely protects children by injecting foreign substances into them… I haven’t lied once. It’s easy to determine that you people are paid, because if you’re not you’re sitting in your houses talking here all the time. Again, it isn’t difficult to figure out…now take your own advice and ignore me… liar! lol

    Like

  511. Nathan
    May 12, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    so that even though it’s not proven that the screaming for four days was encephalitis, it would fit in with the facts of what happened,

    Cia, it does not fit in with your story of what happened. You are incorrect that colic cannot occur in the first week of life, and you are incorrect that prolonged screaming alone is a significant indicator of encephalitis. But the most compelling indication that your child did not have encephalitis is that your child was examined by a doctor and was not admitted to the hospital. There are several causes of encephalitis. If your child in any way appeared encephalitic, the child would have been admitted to the hospital for a septic workup and head imaging. No doctor would send home a neonate with any concerning signs of encephalitis, as that child would be at high risk of death.

    and it’s not proven that the assumed encephalitis caused her autism, but I believe it did, and that would also fit logically into the sequence of events.

    No, it would not. As Canadian Nurse pointed out above, encephalitis serious enough to cause brain damage would result in immediate ICU hospitalization, and there is no reason to believe that deficits would not be immediately apparent rather than appearing many months down the line as developmental delay.

    and how it is what you would expect severe brain damage in the first week to produce,

    But it is not what you would expect severe brain damage in the first week to produce. Studies of the brains of autistic people are not consistent with brain damage. They are larger brains with more neurons.

    Cia, you are constructing a theory for autism, and your own child’s symptoms, that has no basis in fact.

    I appreciate you advice the other day, and your willingness to set aside our differences to try to help us.

    My pleasure. I understand that you wanted to demonstrate that your child had behaviors consistent with autism. However, I would impress upon you that the decisions of your school team should be in conjunction with, not a replacement of, a formal evaluation for autism by a qualified behavioral-developmental team.

    Like

  512. Karen
    May 12, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Cia, this is really, really important. I don’t want to debunk anything you say, but you need to understand that teachers are not diagnosticians. A teacher cannot diagnose ASD, not even a special ed teacher. Special ed teachers simply take a diagnosis and write up an IEP, which, as Lara pointed out, should be a plan for how to modify curriculum to best suit a child’s needs so that they can accomplish specific educational goals. The diagnosis for any IEP should come from a different source, such as a pediatrician, a developmental pediatrician, a psychologist, or a psychiatrist. You really do not need to defend what you have done to me or to anyone else as far as the IEP is concerned, but do make sure your child has received appropriate services, for her sake.

    Like

  513. Karen
    May 12, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    I just want to clarify, as an expression of my profound respect for special ed teachers, they do far, far more than just write IEPs. They just don’t diagnose ASD.

    Like

  514. Karen
    May 12, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    Cia, since you are willing to chime in, would you care to answer my questions to Melanie?

    Like

  515. Chris
    May 12, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    Please point the any post I made above that is a lie.

    And nice strawman too. Your mother should be proud, since you have now admitted to trolling this blog.

    Like

  516. Ignore me... please...
    May 12, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    Chris, you said “Until you answer any of the questions I have asked multiple times on this thread, you will be ignored…” Your words, yet you keep talking to me. You lied when you said you’d ignore me. The fact is, you can’t ignore me. I own you…
    PS I don’t have a mother, me and my father share yours… 😉

    Like

  517. cia parker
    May 13, 2012 at 11:24 am

    I thought the well-considered point is that parents should know that pharmaceutical companies which produce vaccines and/or other drugs have often concealed the truth or just lied, to the detriment of hundreds of thousands of patients. Vioxx was heavily marketed for years, when the manufacturer knew it often caused heart attacks, and a judgment was eventually made for millions against the company for having knowingly marketed a drug which actually did cause heart attacks in many of those that took it. The statin drugs are now black-labeled, because they actually cause dementia, cancer, and/or diabetes in many of those who take them, and the drug manufacturers have known that for many years. Vaccine manufacturers knew for many years that the amount of mercury included in most vaccines as a preservative was way, way above the safe limit hypothesized by the FDA, the letters by a researcher to the drug company telling them that were sent ten years before mercury was withdrawn from most vaccines in more than trace amounts (but not from the flu vaccine, because that isn’t a vaccine marketed mainly for children).
    Since you reject all evidence of vaccine harm not specifically refuted by a pharma-funded “study,” it’s hard to see how it could ever be proven to your satisfaction. Hundreds of thousands of parents say their child was developing normally until he got the MMR, then suddenly regressed into autism and bowel disease? Anything parents say is absolutely worthless as evidence, in your book. Purely “anecdotal”. I would advise parents to be aware that no man can serve two masters, and it’s clear that you have pledged your fealty to Mammon.

    Like

  518. Whiteandnerdy
    May 13, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Hey I read the comments here to.

    Nothing but a rehashing of all the standard anti-vacc falsehoods. Hardly an anti-vacc posting here that doesn’t insult the intelligence of the average middle-schooler, or hasn’t been corrected year after year, or both.

    You are reduced to name calling because you simple can’t articulate a coherent argument to support your POV.

    Offensive, but ultimately pretty harmless because almost all parents are smart enough to see through the anti-vacc nonsense.

    W&N

    Like

  519. Lawrence
    May 13, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    White&Nerdy – common sense.

    And the Avengers rocked!!!!!!

    Like

  520. vetridani
    May 14, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Thank you for that Cia… I just found this book, it looks very interesting so I just ordered it from Amazon. Looking forward to “miseducate” myself further! LOL Be well… 🙂

    Fear of the Invisible
    by Janine Roberts
    isbn 0955917727, amazon.com
    308 pages US$19.95 UK£12.99

    An Investigative Journey into a reckless and contaminated Medical Industry
    The author, an investigative journalist who researched and produced investigative films for the BBC, American and Australian television, was asked by parents with children severely ill after vaccination to discover if the medical authorities were hiding anything from them. (I should add this was Jabs!) She agreed, but had no idea how long this search would take or how it would change her ideas. She expected at best to uncover a small degree of contamination.

    On the ensuing decade-long journey of discovery, she found top government scientists report alarmingly, at meetings between scientists, that it is impossible to purify vaccines. They stated that the childhood vaccines of today are contaminated with viruses from chickens, humans and monkeys, with RNA and DNA fragments, with “cellular degradation products,” and possibly “oncogenes and prions.”

    A chapter called ‘The impure nature of vaccines” draws heavily on official (but previously unseen ) transcripts of meetings between top UK and USA vaccine scientists… it is shocking to hear how they talk when no journalists are around. I had always imagined that vaccines were made of viruses put into a sterile fluid – with a few other chemicals added as preservatives – like mercury… and thought this was what one had to worry about…
    fearcontents1.jpgWell – this is untrue… the liquid used is not sterile – it is the fluid in which the viruses are drawn out of the incubator of animal, human or chicken cells… it cannot be filtered as that would remove the viruses wanted in it… so everything of the same size or smaller remains in the vaccines. These scientists all expressed grave concerns…. one of them said that if the Greens in the UK knew what they were saying, they would demand the immediate withdrawal of all vaccines! The author reports a manufacturer of MMR says the vaccine as given to children is full of cellular degradation products they cannot remove from it … She also cites also authorities saying the manufactures cannot meet the government purity standards – even after they lowered them by a hundred times. A major US court decision in 2008 has linked autism with vaccine contamination.

    Thus it is not just mercury – there are a thousand things in the vaccines. Our children mostly do not fall ill from vaccination simply because nature gifts most of them with excellent immune systems…

    This book, proof read for scientific accuracy by an eminent professor of pathology, gives not just detailed quotations but also names the scientists who are saying these things – giving web links where possible so people can read the original documents for themselves. The doctors cited said that they dare not tell the pubic about all this contamination – as they might demand a withdrawal of the vaccines. Thus we are still not told despite all the consequences for long-term public health.

    There is much research here that has not been reported elsewhere. This chapter cites, for example, a World Health Organization (WHO) senior scientist who said that although they have found the MMR vaccine to be widely contaminated with chicken leukosis virus, they have decided not to tell the public and to continue to permit the vaccine to be made with contaminated eggs.

    The author has doubts over the full accuracy of their research, as it is based on discovering an enzyme, RT, not a virus, but these are important scientists and they say the virus is present, is very dangerous to chickens and potentially to children. But, to admit this publicly, would reveal that they cannot purify the vaccines given to our children.

    A senior professor is cited as writing the vaccine program was so contaminated and chimps were used in vaccine manufacturing so widely, that HIV could easily have spread in a vaccine.

    The author tells how she disturbingly discovered that the key HIV research, that said to prove that HIV causes AIDS, was investigated for scientific fraud by very powerful US scientific institutions (supervised by the US Academy of Science) and by Congress over a four year period. Why is this not widely known? It seems there has been some sort of cover-up. The book cites their conclusions, showing that they reported over twenty major errors in this research, with some errors so serious that they made it impossible to repeat these experiments and verify them! I reproduce the key documents so the reader can assess them for themselves. This is explosive material.

    The author takes us to the key experiments in virology – the ones cited most widely – the ones on which our vaccines are ultimately based, and could find none in which pure samples of viruses were produced and proved to cause particular human diseases. They cannot purify viruses for use in vaccines, and it seems without such pure cultures they cannot properly research the links between viruses and diseases. Frequently the effects of toxins are misdiagnosed as the effects of viruses.

    The book discusses in detail how they produce today the flu and measles virus for vaccines. The author details how measles virus is produced according to the latest CDC guidelines. The way it is done raises many issues.

    Part of the book also takes the readers on a journey through various aspects of HIV theory, such as sexual transmission, the different clinical definitions of AIDS, why AIDS is said to be c aused by HIV and at the same time is said by our governments to happen in the absence of HIV, and why the HIV test picks up on different diseases in the West from in Africa. It is all heavily scientifically referenced.

    In the final part is reported recent research that is revolutionizing biology and offering much hope for the future. These new developments shed new light on the relationships between our cells and viruses. They are not necessarily enemies. Readers may find these new developments will radically change the ideas they have held about viruses all their lives.

    The preface is contributed by Dr Roberto Giraldo. The book has hundreds of scientific references, a scientific glossary and an index.

    Like

  521. May 14, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    You don’t have to pay money for information about vaccines.

    You can find credible information for free on the websites listed here: http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

    Like

  522. vetridani
    May 14, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Leary of WHO…they are mentioned as a topic in the book, I included it in the excerpt above. But thank you for the reply. I really wasn’t posting this for any other reason than to give the info to Cia…I’m am quite positive everyone here could debunk the entire book. 🙂

    Like

  523. May 14, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    WHO has only provided the links. There are links to many government sites as well as non-profit websites if you think governments are corrupt.

    Chicken viruses aren’t much of a concern for humans since chicken viruses only infect chickens. The production of pathogen-free eggs is hugely expensive and in short supply. This would impact vaccine availability. There is a much bigger risk from human viruses like measles virus, mumps virus and rubella virus. The WHO scientist understands this type of risk-benefit analysis whereas a lay person like Janine Roberts does not.

    You also have to look at conflict of interest. How many books do you think Ms. Roberts would sell if she didn’t take a position contrary to current scientific consensus? Looks like she duped you out of your money, which is all she cares about. Based on the excerpt you posted, scientific accuracy is not a priority for Ms. Roberts.

    Like

  524. ella souchek
    May 14, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Veridani,
    Are you the woman I met last year and talked to for a long time at the campus art museum in Columbia, Missouri? I gave you my phone number then. I’d like to talk to you about the book you mentioned, is that the one that says the polio epidemic may have been caused as much by pesticides used in the affected neighborhoods as by the virus?
    Ella

    Like

  525. liz allen
    May 14, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Veridani,
    Cia wanted me to tell you she can’t post here anymore.
    Liz

    Like

  526. liz allen
    May 14, 2012 at 8:39 pm

    Thanks, Veridani, it sounds really interesting. I know Cia will be interested in what you have said about it.

    Like

  527. jozef
    May 15, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    you people are all over the map with disinformation! sorry, minority? yes maybe now but when the parents really find out about the poison vaccines and that millions of people are now aware about the medical scam they will be very pissed i’m sure! docs spend a good deal of time on their careers and would do anything to save it! that includes being in denial of all of the new studies out showing vaccines cause autism and everything else! some people will wake up sooner than others but eventually everyone will know. research on your own! the cat is out of the bag and the career docs and healthcare people will do everything they can to keep the public from the truth! http://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/dec/14/immunized-people-getting-whooping-cough-experts-sp/

    Like

  528. jozef
  529. jozef
    May 15, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    why would they let those monkey parents do that to their babies?!! http://www.naturalnews.com/035787_vaccines_autism_monkeys.html

    Like

  530. dont believe msm
    May 20, 2012 at 1:13 am

    What I find interesting is that on every web page that I’ve seen where people are debating the safety and necessity of vaccines, the anti-vaccine people always seem to state their facts and opinions rationally, and tell others that they want people to see both sides and do their own own research and make their own decisions. On the other hand, the pro-vaccine crowd are overly aggressive, insulting, and closeminded. I have seen some pretty nasty comments from some of these people when the anti-vax people have said they want others to make an informed decision after seeing BOTH sides of the story and that they don’t care what other people choose to do because it is their choice. But the pro people don’t think that people should be given the choice. What happened to this being a free country? I would also like to point out the fact that there are many people in the medical profession who choose NOT to vaccinate themselves and their families. One of my drs has disclosed that she was on the fence about a lot of vaccines and that she had decided her kids were definitely not getting specific vaccines and was still researching others, and another health care provider we have seen did not vax his children at all and they have been entirely healthy their whole life, just as many other people I have conversed with that were either not vaxxed or have kids that were not vaxxed. People keep asking how big pharma makes more money from 2 doses of the mmr vax vs a hospital stay for measles…neither of these things are the real money makers. Its the latter side effects that these vaccines cause that makes them the money by treating all these chronic illnesses such as autism, diabetes, mental retardation, behavioral disorders, asthma, gastrointestinal problems (like ibs and chrons to name 2), and lowered natural immunity so you get sick with every other thing that’s going around (like strep) and have to visit the dr and get antibiotics over and over again, which lowers your bodys defense even more. Its a vicious cycle. And the pro vaxers are the ones who are fear mongers and using scare tactics to try to convince people that they or their children WILL definitely get sick with these illnesses if they aren’t vaxxed. I could keep going on and on about what is wrong with these statistics, but 1) it would take a really long time and I’ve already written way more than I meant to and 2) it wont matter to any of the pro vaxxers anyway because they’re so set in their ways that they would dismiss anything that proved them wrong. I’m sorry but reports and studies that are done by big pharma and gov agencys are not to be trusted, they are all biased and in it for themselves, not the good of humanity.

    Like

  531. Nathan
    May 20, 2012 at 2:41 am

    “Logic dictates that given the enormous amount of time you spend here, you are paid for your services… if not, you’re a shut-in who exists on a vaccine message board. ”

    I have several friends who spend an enormous amount of time watching sports. Would logic dictate that they are paid to do so as well? Or they shut ins? If the latter, I should drop of some meals. Wings and beer, perhaps.

    Like

  532. Lara Lohne
    May 20, 2012 at 11:28 am

    @dont believe msm, please forgive me for being suspicious, but you sound an awful lot like cia parker. Either way, you are only echoing the same claims she has been making on this blog for quite some time even though we have given evidence over and over that her claims are groundless and unfounded and she has changed her story too many times now to count.

    I find it confusing how you take offense at pro vaccine people asking for credentials of anti-vax claims and explaining how when a person’s story changes over and over that makes that person a liar. Do you really think it’s polite to call someone mentally unstable, a shut in, make innuendos about their sex life, etc? I have only ever seen those things coming from the anti-vaccine side of the argument. Who started out calling who a pharma shill?

    Here is the main difference between this and other vaccine advocacy blogs I’ve frequented as opposed to anti-vaccine sites; both sides are allowed to speak. Why is that we allow the voice of the anti-vaccine movement to be heard where they silence anyone who has an opposing view to their own on their sites? The fact of the matter is, truth can stand against slander and criticism where lies and make believe cannot. The anti-vaccine words don’t have any validity when weighed under the same lights as the science behind vaccines and that they actually do save lives. Everyone who is pro-vaccine as you say, regardless of who they are, and I am included in that number, who has ever posted on an anti-vaccine blog or web site has been blocked from ever posting again. It is the anti-vaccine side who will not allow both sides to be heard. If they did, I would still be able to post on Age of Autism, as if I wanted to anyway after the treatment I received from them.

    Case and point, just because someone has a doctor’s credentials, doesn’t mean they know everything, nor that they are right. Nobody knows everything, that’s why we keep doing studies and coming up with new hypotheses, so we can learn beyond our current place of understanding. We know there are doctors who choose not to vaccinate, most chiropractors are in that count, and while not a medical doctor, they still have a doctor’s credentials. There are a lot of doctors who followed the money of the anti-vaccine movement also. Personally, I wouldn’t ever trust any of those doctors with the health of my children. Anyone who puts their own earnings and their own fame above the well being of the people in their care, was never one to be trusted anyway, not with something as important as health care.

    Doctors are human and humans make mistakes. Humans can be blinded by their own greed and self promotion just as lawyers, politicians, movie stars, etc. Personally, knowing what I know about the anti-vaccine movement, I can’t trust anyone who doesn’t trust vaccines. To me that just screams of either naivety or down right self delusion.

    You are very right that the anti-vaccine argument will not sway the vaccine advocates. The reason is most of them look at the facts and data with their minds as opposed to their hearts. Their decisions are based on scientific fact, not make believe and wishful thinking. We are well aware that the only reason any anti-vaccine people comment on this and other vaccine advocacy blogs and boards, isn’t to try and sway those who vaccinate, but those that are confused as to what to believe because they have not yet learned to differentiate between factual information and misinformation. We are here to help them see the truth behind the heart felt stories told by the anti-vaccine movement. We are also here to show that just because the anti-vaccine people can be rude and passionate beyond what is necessary, as well as extremely loud and vocal, that doesn’t give their cause any additional fact or legitimacy, it just means they are louder. So think of this and other vaccine advocacy sites as the whisper of reason helping them find their own way to the truth in the raucous, dangerous, turbulent noise of the anti-vaccine movement.

    Like

  533. dont believe msm
    May 21, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Wow, there are so many holes in what u just said that I can’t even count it. So your medical professionals are the correct ones because they choose to vaccinate? And just because a chiropractor doesn’t have an “MD” in their title does not mean they aren’t a medical dr. Everything you said could go both ways, how do you know anti vax research is wrong and pro vax is the correct one? And that was a rhetorical question, I don’t reall.y want to hear your answer because I’ve already heard it before and don’t agree. The anti vax research can entirely be the correct research and the others be wrong. No drs don’t know everything and can make terrible mistakes, but only non vax drs, right? You do have to see the double standard of everything you have said. And I find it ironic how you think anti vax drs are in it for the money and fame, I think you’re totally backward in that statement. As I stated b4, the money comes from all the ” uncurable ” diseases that these vaccines cause as side effects. I say “uncurable” loosely because in medical standpoints, there are no cure, only drug after expensive drug to mask symptoms and do nothing to solve the real problem, and have more side effects that are a lot of times worse than what you were given the drug for. But I’ve heard a ton of testimonials from people who have been cured by natural remedies, but I’m sure none of you would believe that either. I would tell you of all the proof I have seen in my family, because there is a lot of it, but I don’t wish to be ridiculed and called a liar like you have done to others on here. And im sorry Lara that you were treated terribly on other sites, but every non vax site I have been on, I have not seen that happen, I have only seen the pro vax side saying comments like “you should be killed/beaten the $*!+ out for not vaxxing” “you people are f**king retards” “you’ll be sorry when your kid gets (insert illness here) and dies” etc. Those are all such terrible things to say, I would never say well, you’ll be sorry when your kid gets autism/diabetes/chrons/MS/ADHD/asthma, and I have personally never seen anti vaxxers be so mean with the exception of someone continuously insulting them till they’ve had enough. But I digress, my point is all these reasons you say that the facts about the dangers of vaccines are wrong are the same reasons that they can be right. And don’t tell me I’ve only thought about this with my heart and not my head, because you don’t know me and you don’t know the countless amount of hours I’ve spent researching both sides of this debate b4 I chose a side. I have one child that was fully vaxxed and another that is totally unvaxxed and the differences in the two of them are remarkable. I didn’t just listen to the scare tactics of the pro vax side and just go along with it like I did my first child, I decided to find out for myself and make my own decision, not the decision I was told to make. One last note b4 I quit, you do know that drs/clinics get bonuses for pushing more vaccines on people right? To me that sounds like they’re caring more about money than the health and well being of your family. Oh and some of those drs who choose not to vaccinate their family, still push the vacc