Home > General Info, Parent Perspective > Evaluating Vaccines Requires Critical Thinking

Evaluating Vaccines Requires Critical Thinking

Most of the topics I post about on this blog are intended to encourage conversation about solutions to immunization challenges.  However, more often than not, the comment section on each post is inevitably derailed by those who wish to discredit the value of vaccines.  These visitors often make repeated claims about the thoroughly debunked vaccine/autism link, or they suggest that the immunization industry is plagued with corruption, or even that there is some large government conspiracy in which they claim that toxins in vaccines are intended to poison us all.  This is not to say that this blog is the only place where this type of conversation occurs.  Sadly it is not.  In fact, for every article that attempts to credit vaccines in some way, you can pretty much bet that there will be negative comments in response.

Fortunately, there are plenty of well-educated people out there who spend a great deal of time and effort diligently responding to these inaccurate claims.  They consistently defend the science that supports vaccinations and try to correct the logic of those who consistently criticize vaccines.  They are much more eloquent than I and no doubt, have far greater patience.

But I must acknowledge that there are also a great number of people who read these posts, and lots of other immunization information, in an effort to learn more about vaccines.  They may be curious about something they read elsewhere online, or they may be concerned about something they heard from a friend or family member.  They may even be inquiring about an immunization recommendation they received from their doctor.  Each of these readers have valid concerns and questions and we hope that this blog will help them get the information they are seeking.

However, as I was recently reviewing the varied comments on this blog, I realized that many comments may be confusing to those who don’t engage in immunization conversations on a daily basis.  Then, as I was discussing critical thinking with my high school daughter the other day, I remembered these insightful videos that a friend shared with me.  As basic as they may be, I believe they can offer us some points to consider as we read through the various comments on this blog.

Take for instance this first video, which expands upon the way in which we use logic in formulating an argument.

The second video introduces how broken logic, or “logical fallacies”, can easily be mistaken for logic.

The third video explains straw man arguments and false premises, which are often off-topic, oversimplified, exaggerated or twisted arguments to support our preconceived notions.

In these cases, subtle but rather significant details make all the difference in the presentation of logical ideas and this is often recognized in various vaccine related discussions here on Shot of Prevention.

The fourth video reminds us that we can easily be swayed by our personal perspective.

The first time I viewed this video I couldn’t help but think about how vaccine critics often express distrust regarding the medical or pharmaceutical industry based upon the profits they feel these industries make as a result of immunizations.  Even if these industries did profit greatly from vaccines (which many argue is not the case) profit is not enough to logically prove that the vaccines that pharmaceutical companies manufacture, and the CDC and doctors ultimately recommend, are in any way bad, unsafe or dangerous.

This last video highlights the adverse consequences of what is known as the precautionary principle.

Vaccines are a prime example of this principle in that many critics argue that vaccines are not 100% safe due to acknowledge adverse reactions.  While it is completely understandable and sensible for us to evaluate risks and safety concerns, it is unfortunately logically impossible to wait for irrefutable data that proves something to be 100% safe. Waiting for 100% certainty would prevent us from taking actions now that will save countless people from disease that result in great suffering, hospitalizations and death.   Rather, it is important that we critically evaluating the safety of vaccines, which can be logically determined with repeated testing and scientific research that consistently demonstrates that the minimal risks associated with vaccines is signficantly better than the dangerous risks associated with the diseases that these vaccines are intended to prevent.

These videos are not only helpful in evaluating our own critical thinking skills, but in appreciating the arguments of others.  If you’re reading vaccine information to help you formulate your own opinions on immunizations, then hopefully these videos will prove useful in determining if the reasoning presented is founded in logic or based on fallacy.   I’m confident that if we can use our critical thinking skills adequately, than we will each come to understand what science has demonstrated to be true. Vaccines save lives.

  1. May 8, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    So anyone who disagrees with your point of view (even when backed by science and studies, or lack thereof on your part) is not based on logic but on fallacy. I have to disagree with one statement that the vaccine autism link has been debunked. No studies show that vaccines do not cause autism. The only studies/reviews done were on thimerosal/mmr. Last I checked there were more vaccines than mmr on the schedule and thimerosal isn’t the only heavy metal used in vaccines. If you could provide studies discounting the other vaccines or the schedule in totality, it would be much appreciated

    Like

  2. Chris
    May 8, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    I have to disagree with one statement that the vaccine autism link has been debunked. No studies show that vaccines do not cause autism.

    Actually, there are several large epidemiological studies covering hundreds of thousands of children in several countries on three continents that show no casual relationship between vaccines and autism (many listed here, and more are in the 2003 to 1998 archive). What real evidence do you have that vaccines cause autism? List the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers by reputable researchers who have not had their license to practice medicine come into question and have relevant medical expertize.

    And do tell us what other “heavy metals” are used in vaccines.

    Like

  3. May 8, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Ok I’ll repeat. Studies other than mmr or thimerosal in relation to autism. that link contained only mmr and thimerosal studies.

    Like

  4. James
    May 8, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Specific hypotheses were made about MMR and Thimerosal. The former was one of the great scientific and legal frauds of our time, the latter carried a very, very, very small amount of potential plausibility.

    Both were investigated, both were found lacking.

    Now the goalposts have been moved. Instead of asking specific questions the impossible is being asked – to prove a negative. Whatever ingredient or specific vaccine is tested the impossible cannot be proven and the goalposts will move again.

    Endless demands will be made as each specific hypothesis is disproved only to be followed by combinations that are not even based on biological plausibility.

    To say “no studies show that vaccines do not cause autism” is to misrepresent what science exists and to ask science to prove a negative.

    Like

  5. Nathan
    May 8, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    So anyone who disagrees with your point of view (even when backed by science and studies, or lack thereof on your part) is not based on logic but on fallacy.

    Strawman. Please watch video number three.

    Like

  6. Vaccination Choice is a Human Right
    May 8, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    the only time I ever read your blog is so that I can find out what the latest spin is from big pharma. and for that you are a reliable source! (PS I know for a fact you will not post this)

    Like

  7. Lara Lohne
    May 8, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    Those are awesome videos Christina! My son loves them. He keeps asking to “watch again?” I am so saving those to share with my other children because it’s never too late to learn the path of critical thinking. Thanks for providing them.

    Like

  8. Chris
    May 8, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Repeat what? Before you can determine if any vaccine causes autism you have to find evidence that vaccines are associated with autism. And the several epidemiology studies do not show a connection.

    Like

  9. Chris
    May 8, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    The Pharma Shill Gambit is old and boring. Next time try something novel and more interesting: actual scientific documentation.

    Show us that infants who acquired pertussis had a choice. Explain exactly how the over two hundred in the USA came down with measles in the USA had a choice. Be sure to support your statements with verifiable scientific documentation.

    Like

  10. Chris
    May 8, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    And also: what are those other “heavy metals” used in vaccines? Please show they are detrimental in the doses used in vaccines by posting the title, journal and dates of PubMed indexed papers by qualified researchers.

    Like

  11. lilady
    May 8, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    “the only time I ever read your blog is so that I can find out what the latest spin is from big pharma. and for that you are a reliable source! (PS I know for a fact you will not post this)”

    Really? Your statement is now proven wrong.

    Christina, I’ve seen this video before, and they are excellent. Thanks for the re-run.

    Like

  12. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 9:38 am

    I agree with you, but would like to add that there are many studies showing that thimerosal and also the MMR do cause autism, as well as many other problems.

    Like

  13. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 9:48 am

    And, Chris, the obvious rejoinder is show me how the infants damaged by vaccines had a choice. I tried to protect my baby by saying I didn’t want her to get the hep-B vaccine, but they gave it to her without asking my permission, she reacted with encephalitis, and was later diagnosed with autism. Neither of us was given a choice. All the toddlers who regress into autism and/or bowel disease shortly after getting the MMR were not given a choice either. Doing just fine, walking, talking, socializing, then bam! screwed up forever. My baby got pertussis at nine months after having gotten the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months (which, of course, I now regret having permitted). She got pertussis anyway at a La Leche League meeting. You could say that I did not give her a choice as to going to the meeting and being exposed to the disease, and that would be true, I didn’t even think about any risk of exposure. It did not even enter my mind that I’d be putting her into a large group of babies and toddlers, and that might be risky. But that really doesn’t get us anywhere. Babies and children rely on us to assess the risks in the environment and make the safest choices possible for them, according to our often flawed judgment. And that’s the best we can do. I believe, based on my experience and thousands of hours of reading, that, on the whole, the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases, and so I have the responsiblity to act accordingly.

    Like

  14. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 10:05 am

    And, Chris, the obvious rejoinder is show me how the infants damaged by vaccines had a choice

    It has been noted you keep changing your story and are a known liar. So again you are asked to post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed journal that show that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

    Like

  15. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 10:06 am

    List the title, journal and dates to the PubMed indexed papers that show thimerosal and MMR cause autism. Make sure the authors have not had their medical credentials questioned, and have a relevant background (no MBAs or PhD in computer science).

    Like

  16. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 10:38 am

    I thought the Critical Thinking series of videos was cute! However, I think its premises lead ultimately to mistrusting vaccines, rather than trusting and accepting them. It said that it would be a mistake to regard global warming as “just” a theory, since this is something that affects every one of us personally, and we can see its effects ourselves. Vaccine safety is also “just” a theory, and also one that affects each of us personally. Most of us now have either seen vaccine damage in ourselves, our children, or in people we know, which leads us to mistrust this “theory.” It said that 100% confidence that a product is safe is not possible, and that we can’t reasonably wait for 100% safety before using a new product. I would strongly disagree with that. When the possible outcome is permanent damage, I would not take a chance on the new technology., unless maybe it were an acute, immediate life or death situation. I have seen vaccine damage in myself, my daughter, one of my nephews, my brother, and both my parents. Logically I would conclude that there’s something in our genetic makeup that predisposes us to vaccine damage, and it would be wise to ignore all the influences pushing us to get vaccinated, and protect ourselves from damage by refusing vaccines. Chris, you said that your son could not get vaccinated because he had precarious health, I assume because of his heart problem? I have prayed for his successful surgery a number of times, the acrimony between us has no bearing on my concern for him. But that means that you accept that vaccines can be risky because of their ingredients. If risky for him, then possibly risky for many or even most others. The DPT was much more effective at preventing pertussis than the current DTaP, but the latter replaced the former because it was considered to cause fewer serious adverse reactions than the DPT (which may or my not be true). It is possible that fewer children would die of pertussis (an already very small group) if the DPT were still used, but society has decided that to save a fairly large number from being permanently damaged by the DPT, we’re going to only use the DTaP, EVEN though it means more babies will get and die of pertussis.
    The video said that waiting for irrefutable proof (that vaccines are safe in this case) may not be sensible, and that such a stance would keep technology from evolving. I would say it may or may not be sensible, and I don’t care anything at all about helping technology progress if it’s going to mean damaging my family’s health. Shot of rocket blasting off into space? Now there was a money-sucking program for you, billions of dollars spent on space exploration that could have been spent on relieving human and animal suffering here on earth. Every parent bears the responsibility of informing him or herself as to the risk of serious damage or death from a particular disease in a particular location at a particular time, both the virulence of the disease and the frequency with which it occurs, and the effectiveness and dangers of every particular vaccine.
    The video said that you might not trust a smarmy petroleum spokesman who talks about how responsible they were in the Gulf oil spill, but your personal feelings toward him should not influence your evaluation of the truth of what he says. OK, that’s true as far as it goes. There was an article on the Thinking Moms’ Revolution website a few weeks ago comparing the Deepwater debacle to the vaccine debate, addressing that very point with much more eloquence than I can convey here. There was an article in the most recent issue of The Autism Files on the fiftieth anniversary of Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, again, comparing the debate over pesticides then (and still) to the vaccine debate, mentioning a smarmy pesticide industry spokesman in a televised debate with Rachel Carson. He defended how safe and necessary pesticides were, and of course, although I did not see the debate, I would agree that his creepiness and dishonesty should not affect my feelings about pesticides, and I can safely say that they don’t. However, we all accept now that pesticides are very dangerous for many reasons, like that they’re killing a huge percentage of the honeybees on which we rely to fertilize the crops that keep us alive. (Also cancer, of course, on a personal level.) I read an article on Age of Autism last week by an epidemiologist who said that he has visited many elementary schools, and has seen the signs in a huge percentage of children of having had encephalitis caused by vaccines in their infancy, several signs, one of which was a phthalic fold at the corner of their eyes. (I looked at myself and my daughter, but don’t really know what I would be looking for.) He said we’re looking at ultimate species extinction.
    So, if we’re looking at ultimate species extinction, whether because of vaccines, the oil industry, or pesticides, it behooves us to look very very carefully at the evidence, and not trust anyone because of their position, but rather on whether the facts we can perceive support their words. And try to rise above the personal comfort that technology may bring us, and look at the bigger picture. Use our logic, and I totally agree with the videos that we should muster up all the critical acuity of reason we are capable of to decide on our course of action.

    Like

  17. Kelly
    May 9, 2012 at 11:15 am

    I have seen vaccine damage in myself, my daughter, one of my nephews, my brother, and both my parents. Logically I would conclude that there’s something in our genetic makeup that predisposes us to vaccine damage, and it would be wise to ignore all the influences pushing us to get vaccinated, and protect ourselves from damage by refusing vaccines.

    Actually, this is an illogical conclusion. The fallacy is called “post hoc propter ergo hoc”. In order to make that conclusion logical, you would have to first show evidence that your premise is true and your family members are indeed vaccine damaged.

    Like

  18. lilady
    May 9, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    @ CIA Parker: You need to view the videos again…I don’t see how you could come to your conclusions about increased distrust of vaccines.

    The purpose of the videos is to understand how the human mind falls into common “traps” when they use emotions, anecdotes and illogical reasoning.

    “I read an article on Age of Autism last week by an epidemiologist who said that he has visited many elementary schools, and has seen the signs in a huge percentage of children of having had encephalitis caused by vaccines in their infancy, several signs, one of which was a phthalic fold at the corner of their eyes. (I looked at myself and my daughter, but don’t really know what I would be looking for.)”

    I think you misinterpreted what you read at AoA…or is it just another piece of bogus science…from one of their “experts”? I suspect you mean “Epicanthal” folds…which is NOT a sign of having had encephalitis…caused by any cause. Encephalitis is a serious medical conditions, caused by a myriad of pathogens and there certainly would be a record of a history of encephalitis in a child’s medical history.

    CIA Parker…why on earth would you be looking for epicanthal folds if you are not a hypochondriac…or looking for more “confirmation” that you are “vaccine-damaged”?

    Billions of people have epicanthal folds. Most times it is because they are Asian heritage…or European heritage…or just because they inherited the epicanthic fold. Occasionally the fold is seen with people who have an inherited or congenital disorder…and the epicanthic fold is not the sole physical sign of their disorder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold

    Like

  19. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    James,
    Didn’t you hear that the judge Sir John Mitting completely exonerated Dr. Walker-Smith, Dr. Wakefield’s fellow researcher on the Lancet case study, of any wrongdoing? He found the children had been appropriately treated, there was no fraud, and he reprimanded the GMC for its shallow thinking and false conclusions, restoring Dr. Walker-Smith’s license. Because the fact is that those twelve children all got bowel disease within days or weeks of the MMR, and nine of them also got autism. It looked suspicious to those doctors, because the MMR really does damage an extremely large number of children. Why do you think this news wasn’t reported in the U.S. at all? Google it if you don’t believe it. A judge in Rimini, Italy, determined in March that it was indisputable that the plaintiffs’ son got autism from the MMR. So Hannah Poling is by no means alone in having won judgment finding that vaccines can cause autism.

    Like

  20. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    Chris,
    I have put up a lot of citations of articles and studies published in reputable medical journals in the past. They were meaningless to you, so I must say that I do not accept your rules of engagement. Sue me.

    Like

  21. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Didn’t you hear that the judge Sir John Mitting completely exonerated Dr. Walker-Smith, Dr. Wakefield’s fellow researcher on the Lancet case study, of any wrongdoing?

    And they reasoned he had been duped by Wakefield. Wakefield is still a fraud. Which is why investigations into MMR and autism from:
    Lancet. 1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9.
    Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association.

    to
    PLoS One. 2008 Sep 4;3(9):e3140.
    Lack of association between measles virus vaccine and autism with enteropathy: a case-control study.

    and
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    … show that there is no relationship between MMR and autism. It is all because Wakefield lied.

    Since the MMR vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1971, more than twenty years before Wakefield, you would think there was some data of a autism/MMR link. I have asked several Wakefield supporters for this pre-1997 data, but none have come up with it.

    Like

  22. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Actually, they were not meaningless to me. They showed that you do not understand the science, cherry pick, are by authors without proper qualifications and often have nothing to do with the question being asked. That is what the papers you have posted mean to me.

    Like

  23. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Lillady,
    This is a quote from the article: “Occupy the American Psychiatric Association’s Darker Dark Age,” by Adriana Gamondes. The word I was looking for was ptosis, I had never heard of it before, I’m sorry that the word I came up with was so far off base. The part about these things being caused by infantile encephalitis (caused by you know what) is not in here, but if you’re interested it would be easy to look up and read the whole (long) article. It’s pretty frightening.

    “Those who don’t see this have not spent a significant amount of time around public schools with average means that can’t afford to ship every afflicted child out of district and out of sight. Like colors in the desert, it sometimes takes a while for the eye to adjust and then suddenly you find yourself in an acid trip of hues—and there they are. You see children with ptosis— the tell-tale mitochondrial droop at the outside corners of the eyes—so often these days it’s begun to look like an ethnic trait. Or hair that looks like it was sprinkled with talcum. They don’t sleep. Parents are told this is normal. As infants they vomit up half of everything that goes into their mouths from two months on. Parents are told it’s colic. Then there’s the poop—these kids are either constipated, have explosive diarrhea or excrete four foot ropes of stool every three hours so that it’s clear that what they ingest is hardly benefiting them in terms of nutrition, even if their diet is top notch organic. They have tubes put in their ears due to multiple chronic ear infections and “glue ear.” They have bizarre skin conditions we never heard of thirty years ago and, instead of one hapless kid in a grade level with eczema, you see scores. They develop facial tics and obsessions in the wake of trivial infections. Parents are told these things are genetic. If mom and dad pop a Prozac, they might even believe it. And asthma and peanut allergies and the rest. And that’s before the kids ever start on Ritalin, followed by all the ensuing drugs to treat the side effects of the drugs that came before and on and on.

    And yet for those borderline kids—the ones that don’t have anything so definable as autism— parents who accept the “genetic brain chemical imbalance” theory of everything that ails children might cling hysterically to this virtual euphemism that Johnnie—with his overly large head, chronic post-nasal symptoms, wonky eye sockets and one slightly dragging leg— just has “ADHD.” I suppose this sounds better than “Johnnie is a forerunner of species extinction.”

    Like

  24. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    I found the passage about these things being caused by infant encephalitis, it was right before the passage above in the article.
    “Today you don’t have to be an expert to see well-insured suburban school children with faint tics and speech delays, strange gaits, uneven eye sockets and other mementos of infant encephalopathic events.”

    Like

  25. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Dr. Sears thinks that encephalitis is not that rare a sequela to a vaccination, and may only display symptoms as mild as somnolence or staring episodes, hard to spot in an infant, as well as the screaming syndrome for three hours or more (my daughter screamed for four days and nights starting nearly four days after she was given the hep-B vaccine (against my expressed wishes). He says that usually no permanent damage is done, but that if a child screams for a long time (like my daughter) that it can cause encephalopathy, including autism. And I don’t think it’s true that he can be sure no permanent damage is done, with one in six children developing a learning disability, one in nine asthma, one in ten ADHD, maybe one in 50 autism, and one in six an allergy (when the rate in children was close to zero eighty years ago), I don’t think it can be dismissed that their conditions were caused by an encephalitic vaccine reaction or an autoimmune response initiated by a vaccine reaction.

    Like

  26. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Dr. Sears thinks that encephalitis is not that rare a sequela to a vaccination,

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    Perhaps Dr. Sears should keep up with medical research. He is really not a reputable source for vaccine information: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

    Like

  27. Lawrence
    May 9, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    cia starts with the false premise that vaccines are “un-safe.” The occurences of serious side-effects is so rare that some of them can’t even be definitely related to vaccines at all (but are included because it covers all the bases). And, of course, no reputable study has ever shown a link between autism & any vaccine.

    Like

  28. James
    May 9, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Walker-Smith, through the deception of Wakefield, believed he had ethical clearance when he didn’t. Walker-Smith, through the deception of Wakefield, thought he was performing appropriate treatments when he wasn’t.

    That is the ‘exoneration’ granted to Walker-Smith.

    Wakefield performed unethical research and remains removed from the medical register for it.

    Wakefield cooked his data to shorten the temporal difference between the vaccine and the onset of symptoms. Those are the facts. What you call ‘facts’ were faked data.

    Like

  29. Lara Lohne
    May 9, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    cia,
    You continually spout false information and try to pass it off as fact and science, never once have you ever sited any reputable studies to support what you claim as correct. You can stand all day long and shout to the world that the sky is pink, but if it really isn’t, that would make you wrong, deceived perhaps and/or delusional. Why must you have something to blame? Why must it be that the government and ‘big pharma’ are trying to cause the extinction of the human race? How much logic is there in a corporation who ‘makes billions in profits from vaccines’ use those same money makers to kill off their clientele? Try using that logic when making your decisions. The idea that your crowd believes vaccines are making pharma huge profits and at the same time are meant, intentionally, to kill off humans makes no logical sense whatsoever.

    I’ve told you before, you don’t speak for every person who has ever suffered a disease and you don’t speak for every parent of a child with autism so stop trying to. Your words become more and more ridiculous the more times I hear them because you accept it so readily because it is what you WANT to believe, because for some reason it’s so hard for you to think that these things could be just random happenings and not designed with intent. Do I know why my son has autism? No, but he does and I know he didn’t get it from vaccines. More and more, research is showing genetic changes in protein strings of DNA. The same genes that are responsible for Schizophrenia are also responsible for autism, just with different changes and the number of genes that are different, they are finding, is what determines the severity of the autism too. As far as I am aware, vaccines don’t cause spontaneous mutation in genes. These are genes that were present prior to birth. The markers for autism were there long before the child ever got any vaccines, and no vaccine can make autism worse.

    And once more, all babies cry for hours on end, days on end and it is inconsolable crying. They call it in hospitals now, The Period of Purple Crying. They train parents how to deal with it, so babies don’t end up shaken, which does cause brain damage and encephalitis. Perhaps your daughter was shaken due to her continual crying and the frustration that comes along with it and that is what caused her encephalitis, and maybe that’s why it’s so easy for you to blame vaccines, because it takes the guilt off someone else who maybe didn’t intentionally harm her, but intentionally shook her which caused the harm. Of course this is all speculation, but we don’t know since we weren’t there. We do know vaccines didn’t cause her autism though, and if she did scream for four days when she was a newborn, ANY mother or father, already sleep deprived, would be suffering anxiety, stress, frustration and that is the breeding ground for shaking a baby. I’m not trying to turn you into a monster, but there are many different ways of looking at things, and just like it says in the videos, 1+2=3 then what you are claiming about your daughter cannot be correct because you are in essence claiming that 1+2=5 which is not logically possible. You don’t use critical and logical thinking when deciding what you will believe, you have decided long before you even read the data, even if the data proves the complete opposite of what you believe, you still don’t accept it. Sorry to break it to you cia, that is not critical or logical thinking.

    Like

  30. lilady
    May 9, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    CIA Parker: Why didn’t you look up eyelid ptosis yourself…I suspect it was another of your gambits to fill up your posts here. Do you see anything here that states it is a residual effect from encephalitis?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptosis_%28eyelid%29

    I read that article on AoA and it is full of crappy pseudoscience.

    Please do not quote Dr. Sears to me. He has an “alternative childhood vaccine schedule” that is not based on the scientific research, or immunology or the optimum time to immunize children against vaccine-preventable diseases. He “encourages” parents to pick and chose which vaccine their children will receive or to “opt out” of completely. His 7 year old patient who contracted measles in Europe was the “index case” responsible for a large measles outbreak in San Diego in 2008. Infants too young to be immunized were hospitalized, an entire planeload of passengers were put in quarantine, due to Dr. Bob Sears and his unimmunized patient:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5708a3.htm

    Like

  31. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    I did look up ptosis, and found that it can be caused by strokes (and vaccines often cause some degree of stroke, and some believe that they always do), and that it’s often found in conjunction with Guillain-Barré syndrome, a well-known adverse event caused by vaccines. I was impressed by the article, but obviously you have the right to your own opinion.
    Since it is the parent who will bear the lifelong burden of his child’s disability, if such were to occur, it is the parent’s responsibility to decide what, if any, vaccines he will permit his child to get. This is no criticism at all of Dr. Sears, but rather an accolade, and helps to explain his great popularity among mainstream parents. Did any of these children who got measles in San Diego in 2008 die of it? Your side seems to think it’s the equivalent of saying that someone murdered fifty people in a high school to say that someone introduced measles there. Measles is very rarely dangerous to previously healthy, well-nourished people who do not take fever reducers. Waldorf people think having the measles is a positive benefit for the child, conferring a stronger immune system, permanent immunity, and an inevitable giant leap forward developmentally. Dr. Hans-Peter Studer, in his book Vaccination: A Guide for Making Personal Choices, says on page 69: “Measles is important for the development of the immune system, and can support the psychological and spiritual development of the child. One can be concerned that mass vaccination could lead to a shift in the illness towards babies and adults, who are at greater risk from measles complications.” On page 31, with citations of the relevant scientific studies, he states that having the formerly common childhood illnesses greatly reduces the risk of chronic diseases in later life, including cancer. In a controlled Swiss study of 379 cancer patients, the risk of developing cancer, excluding breast cancer, was found to fall by 20% for each childhood illness. Another study found that MS was much more common in those who had not gotten the childhood illnesses, which appear to improve the functioning of the immune system. (It occurs to me that it’s possible that it may be as much the ill effects from the vaccines preventing the childhood illnesses as the failure to have benefited from the illnesses that causes the higher risk of chronic disease later in life.) Dr. Studer explains at some length how vaccination for diseases like flu can disrupt the ecological balance established over centuries, and can in the long term lead to greater human suffering and higher medical costs (p. 36).
    The proposal to force parents to vaccinate their children in Vermont met with resounding failure because so many parents gathered their forces to tell their state representatives about how strongly they felt about preserving their right to choose what vaccines their children got. They have resolved to vote out of office those legislators most central to advancing the objectionable bill.

    Like

  32. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    This is something I found just now, and not what I looked at earlier, about vaccines causing ptosis and strokes. If you are interested in children’s health, you will find it provocative. Of course anything that happens to real children is only reported by their parents, and can be dismissed in certain circles as only “anecdotal” and worthless.

    http://www.kdforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2559
    Vaccines and ptosis
    by slynn79 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:46 am
    My son developed Kawasaki about 8-10 weeks after receiving the vaccine for swine flu. He was hospitalized in Feb. and received IVIG treatment. Thankfully he has no artery involvement, but around Halloween of the same year his eyelid started to droop. By Christmas, it was almost completely closed. We have seen 2 pediatric opthamologists, 2 pediatric neurologists, and even traveled 15 hrs to the Mayo clinic to see what the neurologist called “the doctor”. No one can tell us what caused his ptosis. They can find no neurological or muscular causes. The doctor at the Mayo clinic actually told us to stop trying to find out what is causing it because we would probably never know and it was putting him thru a lot of unnecessary tests.My husband and I are just not ready to give up on finding out what is wrong with our child.Has anyone had any similar issues with eye weakness or heard of any links to the swine flu vaccine?
    slynn79
    New Member

    Posts: 1
    Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:27 am
    Top
    Re: Vaccines and ptosis
    by practicing patience » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:50 pm
    No, I haven’t heard of connections, but wanted to let you know that ours was also diagnosed 7 wks post H1N1 vaccination. Coincidence, maybe. I wondered, too.
    practicing patience
    100+ Posts

    Posts: 137
    Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:12 am

    —–And the docs can say all they want about it not being vaccine related, because they will be ruinied if they do other wise, but I saw both of my kids come down with Kawasakis a little under the two month period after thier vaccines, they were also rechallenged again and again with vaccines, developing swollen left ventercules on their hearts, passing out and gasping, and I saw my son have a stroke right after his fourth DPT shot. I gave those vaccines chance after chance to prove me wrong. I wish I had given my kids a chance instead. But those good ole docs kept saying there was no connection.

    Like

  33. lilady
    May 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    CIA Parker: I’m just going to ignore you from here on…I suggest that other posters do the same thing, because you a spoiled brat seeking attention. You are not vaccine-injured; your children aren’t vaccine-injured and you’re a thread derailing pathological liar.

    Like

  34. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    I thought the Critical Thinking series of videos was cute! However, I think its premises lead ultimately to mistrusting vaccines, rather than trusting and accepting them.

    I doubt that, especially considering the frequency with which those who mistrust vaccines, like yourself, use the very fallacies that the videos are trying to guard against.

    Vaccine safety is also “just” a theory, and also one that affects each of us personally.

    Vaccine safety, however, can be demonstrated quite conclusively through scientific trials and monitoring.

    Most of us now have either seen vaccine damage in ourselves, our children, or in people we know, which leads us to mistrust this “theory.”

    Most of us? You are making stuff up. The overwhelming majority of people vaccinate. Clearly most of us are not seeing vaccine damage. And I would posit that most of the people who claim they have seen damage, like yourself, have not.

    When the possible outcome is permanent damage, I would not take a chance on the new technology., unless maybe it were an acute, immediate life or death situation.

    Do you drive your child to any place other than the emergency room? If so, you are taking a chance with your child’s life, with technology in a non-life-or-death situation.

    Logically I would conclude that there’s something in our genetic makeup that predisposes us to vaccine damage, and it would be wise to ignore all the influences pushing us to get vaccinated, and protect ourselves from damage by refusing vaccines.

    Logically you cannot rule out the possibility that you are biased against vaccines and blame vaccines for a variety of health outcomes that have not been shown to be related to vaccines.

    The DPT was much more effective at preventing pertussis than the current DTaP, but the latter replaced the former because it was considered to cause fewer serious adverse reactions than the DPT (which may or my not be true). It is possible that fewer children would die of pertussis (an already very small group) if the DPT were still used, but society has decided that to save a fairly large number from being permanently damaged by the DPT, we’re going to only use the DTaP, EVEN though it means more babies will get and die of pertussis.

    Because, Cia, people other than yourself can understand the concept of a risk-benefit ratio. DTP was changed to DTaP because it had similar efficacy and was much better tolerated, though some studies have now indicated it might be slightly less effective. Following your logic, on the other hand, a vaccine has the potential to cause even one death should not be used even if it saves thousands of lives. You would rather thousands of children die to prevent one death.

    That makes no sense, and is frankly inhumane.

    Like

  35. Kelly
    May 9, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    My concern is that someone may happen on this blog looking for information and not realize that cia is a pathological liar, thus I take every opportunity to point that out in a line or two.

    Like

  36. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    I tried to protect my baby by saying I didn’t want her to get the hep-B vaccine, but they gave it to her without asking my permission, she reacted with encephalitis

    I would like to point out again that by your own admission you made the encephalitis part up. You child has never been diagnosed with encephalitis, you decided at some point later against the opinion of your child’s doctor that your child had encephalitis from the hepatitis b vaccine given four days earlier.

    Personally, I have a hard time believing your other claims about your family’s medical history as well.

    Like

  37. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    Unfortunately human memory is fallible, and correlation does not equal causation. Plus, you have still not told us in your own words what you must read and understand before entering the VAERS database from its official website: http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index . Exactly why does that page say: “Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data. You MUST click on the box below to access the VAERS database.”?

    Like

  38. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    I also try to post the papers that are directly counter to her claims, plus get her to answer certain questions. Especially when she brings up VAERS and other parental anecdotes. Also it helps to remind others that her sources are not reputable.

    Sometimes we are rewarded by her revealing that she does not even know how to do basic research. That being a classic rejoinder to another question she refuses to answer.

    Like

  39. cia parker
    May 9, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Lara,
    Did you clear your post with your friends before you posted something so irresponsible? High-pitched crying (le cri encéphalique) or prolonged screaming (defined as longer than three hours) are considered signs of a serious neurological reaction, encephalitis, caused by either a disease or a vaccine. The Merck Manual, the leading medical textbook, defines encephalitis as being caused either by a disease or a vaccine, and so this possibility cannot be brushed off as casually as you do.
    Michael Belkin’s baby Layla died four hours after getting the hep-B vaccine, the autopsy showed that her brain was swollen (encephalitis, swelling of the brain). The police investigated him and his wife on suspicion of having shaken the baby. The coroner changed his autopsy findings after talking with the vaccine representative.
    Judy Converse’s baby was given the hep-B vaccine at birth without informing the parents or asking permission. He reacted when he was four days old with the prolonged, inconsolable screaming, seizures, and massive, explosive diarrhea. She and her husband begged for medical attention for weeks, but the doctor wouldn’t see her baby, until they insisted on taking him into the ER, where he had a seizure, and the meds said Why didn’t you bring him in sooner? The nurses said how strange it was that he should scream so much, since newborns never had colic. He didn’t eat, he didn’t sleep, but was a sick, sick baby for months, and was eventually diagnosed with autism and bowel disease. She wrote a book about her experience, When Your Doctor is Wrong: Autism and the Hep B Vaccine. She testified before Congress about her wretched experience in the hearings on the safety of this highly unsafe, unnecessary, but highly profitable vaccine to prevent a sexually-transmitted disease that babies and children don’t get.
    You call it blue baby syndrome, nothing to worry about. Jamie Murphy, in What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization, says:
    “Many bewildered and frightened parents have experienced the terror of seeing their once-healthy infants suffer a severe reaction to DPT just hours after an immunization shot. Two of the more common serious reactions, which have been witnessed by parents and physicians alike, are known as ‘high-pitched screaming’ episodes and ‘persistent crying’ spells. One mother describes the screaming bout of her infant son as a ‘blood-curdling scream as if someone were stabbing him,’ after which the child became unresponsive and limp, only to repeat the whole process an hour later. George Dick, M.D., a British vaccine researcher, described the high-pitched screaming episode as lasting an hour or more, after which the exhausted infant goes into a quiet period of about a half-hour, yet is still quite restless. The screaming pattern begins again, until the infant falls into a deep sleep, sometimes lasting up to twelve hours.
    The high-pitched screaming episodes and persistent crying bouts, while serious in themselves, are thought to be neurological warning signs of even greater brain dysfunction. In that regard, perhaps the most serious reaction to the pertussis vaccine is the convulsive seizure. …Another child reacted within seven hours of her first DPT shot with a high-pitched scream, rigid body, and staring look, followed by a sixteen-hour sleep. Afterwards her mother reported the reaction to the pediatrician. Upon seeing the child again, unbelievably, the physician proceeded to give the child another dose of the DPT vaccine! Twelve hours later, the baby girl underwent a ‘tonic-clonic’ convulsion lasting four and a half hours. Thereafter the vaccine-battered infant developed diarrhea, otitis media, bronchial infections, runny nose, asthma, and an allergic reaction to all milk products. The young child continues to have seizures, asthma, and ’bouts’ of pneumonia three years after her neurological shock with DPT vaccine.”
    I hope that no one takes your post seriously, and then dismisses their baby’s encephalitic vaccine reaction manifesting as screaming syndrome, as nothing but that blue baby syndrome that woman on shotofprevention explained as being nothing serious.

    Like

  40. Lara Lohne
    May 9, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    cia,

    Not sure what you mean by cleared it with my friends, nor why my post is irresponsible. I am not the one making outlandish claims that are false and have been proven so time and time again. I don’t know what blue baby syndrome is and never have I ever used that particular phrase. The Period of Purple Crying is high pitched, continual and inconsolable crying that can last for hours, days, even months and is perfectly normal in all infants. The training is to help parents know that their baby is going to cry and there will sometimes be nothing that can be done to comfort them and in those times, put your baby down and walk away so you don’t do something you may regret out of frustration.

    Your sources are not credible, therefore will not, and cannot, be taken at face value, or as truth. No research done by a reputable scientist has ever been able to back up what you and your cronies are trying to insist is correct. You are spreading false information and logical thinking can see past it. I am not the one being irresponsible, you are.

    BTW, there is a HUGE difference between Purple crying and crying due to distress and the child also manifesting with symptoms such as seizures, vomiting, diarrhea and fever. And any parent of a new born is told, in fact given an information sheet of symptoms to watch for and to take their baby immediately to the ER if they suspect them. Crying is not one of them. All the stories you tell equate to nothing more then stories without scientific evidence to back them up. I don’t believe you are any kind of medical professional or expert, therefore your claims are nothing more then those of a woman seeking attention and casting blame anywhere she can. For what purpose, I have to ask, do you need to blame something?

    Like

  41. Chris
    May 9, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Michael Belkin’s baby Layla died four hours after getting the hep-B vaccine, the autopsy showed that her brain was swollen (encephalitis, swelling of the brain). The police investigated him and his wife on suspicion of having shaken the baby. The coroner changed his autopsy findings after talking with the vaccine representative.

    And when pressed for more verifiable details he goes silent:

    Like many stories in the anti-vaccine movement, though, Belkin’s is murkier than it may seem to true believers—and he doesn’t make it easy to verify crucial details.

    Most crucially of all, Belkin says he doesn’t know where the pediatrician’s notes are that prove that the examiner initially determined that Lyla had a swollen brain. “You have to take my word for it,” he says.

    Again, Ms. Parker, parent anecdotes are not data. Especially from parents who refuse to truthfully answer questions after using their story to get pity points.

    Like

  42. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 10:47 pm

    High-pitched crying (le cri encéphalique) or prolonged screaming (defined as longer than three hours) are considered signs of a serious neurological reaction, encephalitis, caused by either a disease or a vaccine.

    You keep saying this, Cia, but you have yet to cite proof of this claim. Prolonged screaming is also considered a sign of… having a newborn.

    I am beyond doubtful that you are trained to identify the specific cry of a baby with encephalitis – it is not just any high pitched cry. Your child was examined and not found to have signs of encephalits. If he had, for any reason, he would have been admitted to the hopsital immediately, vaccine or no.

    The Merck Manual, the leading medical textbook, defines encephalitis as being caused either by a disease or a vaccine, and so this possibility cannot be brushed off as casually as you do.

    It is not casually brushed off; it has been extensively studied. Encephalitis can be caused by a vaccine, the MMR, for example, in one in a million doses (wild measles causes it in one per one thousand). But that does not mean that it can be caused by any vaccine, as vaccines are created differently. Numerous studies of the hepatitis B vaccine do not show that it causes encephalitis at all, and there is not a plausible reason to believe it could do so even in rare cases, as there is for the live MMR.

    Lara is right, you are not using reliable sources regarding the side effects of vaccines. You are just quoting emotional things from other websites that say what you believe.

    Like

  43. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    Not only is the plural of anecdote not data, but internet discussion boards are not even reliable anecdotes.

    Like

  44. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    Cia, you said that was written by an epidemiologist. It was in fact written by:

    “Adriana Gamondes is a contributing editor at Age of Autism and one of the administrators of the Facebook page. She lives in Massachusetts with her husband and recovering twins.”

    It is an antivaccine horror-fantasy novella, Cia, that scares you. Or perhaps a halluncination.

    Like

  45. Nathan
    May 9, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    I did look up ptosis, and found that it can be caused by strokes (and vaccines often cause some degree of stroke, and some believe that they always do)

    And some believe that the earth is flat.

    http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=65

    it’s often found in conjunction with Guillain-Barré syndrome, a well-known adverse event caused by vaccines

    There is a physiologic reason why it occurs with GBS. GBS has not been shown to be caused by any vaccines to my knowledge with the possible exception of the 1976 H1N1 vaccine, and even that is debatable. Regardless, this is not evidence that ptosis is a sign of some kind of subclinical autism. That is just nonsense. As is the entire AoA article you quoted. Note the lack of references to actual science within it.

    Did any of these children who got measles in San Diego in 2008 die of it?

    Would it change your mind if it did? How many deaths from measles would be needed before you thought the vaccine was a good idea?

    Quoting the opinion of an antivaccine author does not constitute evidence. Dr Hans-Peter Studer (what is he a doctor of, BTW – the book website only credits him as “the editor of Bisch Zwäg, a health magazine in Switzerland”) can wax nostalgic about measles all he wants – it does not make him correct.

    Like

  46. Vaccine atheist
    May 11, 2012 at 9:25 am

    jabwatchdog: “No studies show that vaccines do not cause autism.”

    While that may be true, it’s almost certainly because it’s nearly impossible to prove a negative. For example (paraphrasing Nassim Nicholas Taleb, author of The Black Swan), for years it was accepted as true that there is no such thing as a black swan (as no one had ever seen one). The logical leap was that “all swans are white”, and the proof was simply that no one had ever seen a black swan. This presumption was carried for years, and increasingly accepted as truth until the day that someone saw a black swan, proving empirically, and conclusively, their existence. And rendering the previous ‘proven statement’ wrong.

    Relating that to your quote, the absence of something *does not prove that it doesn’t exist*. It may hint strongly, you may be quite certain of the data you have, but it’s not proof.

    I fully vaccinated my first child on the doctor’s recommended schedule, mostly because of my own lack of knowledge at the time (he’s 12 now). We are carefully vaccinating our toddler, and doing the vaccines on our own (delayed) timeline that reflects the downward slope of adverse reactions after a certain age (after correction for sample set size, e.g. 12 adverse reactions in 1000 administered vaccines becomes 15 in 10000). We also carefully evaluate the efficacy of each vaccine and make a carefully considered decision based not on hype and hysteria, but on clinical data.

    Like

  47. Vaccination Choice is a Human Right
    May 11, 2012 at 9:38 am

    Two questions:
    1) Where does Shot of Prevention get its $$ funding?
    2) What do you think about http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html?

    Like

  48. Michael Simpson
    May 16, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Most individuals who blog about vaccines do so because they know that all of the evidence (and when I mean all, I mean about 99.997%) supports the fact that Vaccines Save Lives. I blog without getting paid a dime, but if you are in the know about a way for me to make a few million by providing ethical, accurate and responsible information, tell me where to line up! Of course, I review lots of vaccine denialist websites and find lots of ads for homeopathy and alternative medicine, all of which don’t work, but produce more revenue than vaccines. Just saying. 🙂

    As for #2, many of us have ripped that into little shreds. It’s probably been gamed like online political polls, but assuming that it hasn’t, it’s not how real evidence-backed epidemiological studies, they require follow up of every complaint to determine if there’s a causal link. Which leads me to the old logical fallacy of conflating correlation with causality, since there isn’t one single plausible physiological link between current vaccinations and any neurological disorder. Finally, you’re trying to make a case with a lame internet collection system while ignoring the wealth of evidence from real research, clinical trials, which show nothing. Nada. Squat. So, you’re “research-mining” to support your confirmation bias, rather than being an open-minded researcher.

    But hey, what do I know? I’m not on the payroll of Big Pharma. Oh wait, I used to be. I guess that destroys my credibility.

    Like

  49. Vaccination Choice is a Human Right
    May 16, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    exactly. you are a denialist indeed! good luck with your “free” blog and your campaign against anyone who dares think freely.

    Like

  50. Michael Simpson
    May 16, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    Vaccination Choice is a Human Right :
    exactly. you are a denialist indeed! good luck with your “free” blog and your campaign against anyone who dares think freely.

    You keep using the word “denialist.” I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    Like

  51. liz allen
    May 17, 2012 at 11:22 am

    I thought the word “denialist” referred to someone who denies that vaccines cause a lot of irreparable damage and sometimes death to those who get them. What do you understand it to mean, Michael?

    Like

  52. Lawrence
    May 17, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    @Liz – we understand the “confirmed” list of potential side effects from vaccinations & also understand that in rare instances, there can be some serious side-effects. What it not evident nor been shown, is that vaccines are responsible for autism.

    Anti-vaccine groups deny the mountain of evidence that has been shown to disprove any link between vaccines and autism…..

    Like

  53. Michael Simpson
    May 17, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Broadly speaking, a denialist reject overwhelming evidence, and attempt to generate a controversy through attempts to deny that a scientific consensus exists. You have absolutely 0 evidence other than some post hoc fallacious beliefs, research mining, and the fraudulent research of MR. Andy Wakefield. I have peer-reviewed research from respected physicians, researchers and scientists. I have meta-analyses. And I have the most important thing on my side: the lack of credible, plausible and scientific mechanisms for vaccine injury. And when I say lack, I really mean the complete absence.

    Denialism comes in many forms. There are global warming denialists who think that the earth is warming because they believe it’s “natural”, despite the vast amount of evidence. There are evolution denialists who think the earth is only 6000 years old despite the overwhelming evidence. There are AIDS denialists who think that HIV does not cause AIDS, despite the mountains of evidence. There are physics denialists who think that homeopathy is something more than bottled water. But the most horrifying of the denialist crowd are the vaccine denialists, because of their “beliefs and faith”, not based on any science whatsoever, are killing children all over the world.

    Vaccines save lives. Period, end of story. Bring some real peer-reviewed evidence, and not one poorly designed story about chimps, and I’ll talk. Because I’m willing to test the null hypothesis, that is, vaccines harm children, which is the sign of a good scientist. Without evidence though, the null hypothesis fails.

    You refuse to develop a null hypothesis to your statement that vaccines “cause a lot of irreparable damage.” That’s denialism. That’s close-mindedness. Because if I ask you “what evidence would open your mind to vaccines being safe,” you will not give me a straight answer, the truest sign of a close-minded pseudoscience belief.

    Pseudoscience relies upon confirmation rather than refutation. Relies upon personalization of issues. Lacks openness to new ideas. Refuses to be falsified (and if you don’t understand that term, you’re a hopeless acolyte to the vaccine denialism). Making broad, vague, and untestable claims. It is close-mindedness of the highest level.

    You see, science works in one important way. It is open to the bright light of criticism. It wants to refute it’s best ideas. But it requires extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. You are making an extraordinary claim that is in direct opposition to all science, and by doing so, you put children at risk. Not only has your group not provided extraordinary evidence, it hasn’t even brought any credible evidence whatsoever. You are so close-minded to real evidence, it will be impossible for your crowd to actually do anything to getting credible evidence.

    The funniest thing is that this blog rarely deletes anti-vaccine rantings. On my blog, I never do, unless they decide to go overboard with f-bombs and racism. However, if I tried to post my ideas on the Age of Autism, they’d block and ban me forever. It’s because you anti-vaccine crowd doesn’t like criticism. It doesn’t like new ideas. It would rather pretend children aren’t dying just to maintain their belief.

    Like

  54. Michael Simpson
    May 17, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Lawrence. You use a lot fewer words than I. I accept that every medical procedure has some risk. If the risk is higher than the expected benefit, then of course we should reject it. There are some oncology procedures that have a benefit just barely greater than the risk, but since the benefit is living a few years beyond the lifespan with the untreated cancer, we take that.

    Vaccines save lives. Not taking a vaccines reduce some minor risk. Even if vaccines caused autism (and I reject this hypothesis since it is unsupported by evidence), it saves lives at a rate far higher than even the imagined risk of neurological disorders. Since I’m in the medical community, I was aware of Wakefield’s fraudulent research in the late 90’s. I was aware of the controversy. And at that time, I was greatly concerned about the quality of research, but I hadn’t rejected it. I was very concerned about my two infant daughters (in the late 90’s) getting MMR and TDaP. Very concerned. My wife and I discussed it for a couple of weeks, but even though there was no contradicting data to Wakefield’s fraudulent assertions, I felt that preventing polio, measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, chickenpox, and everything else far outweighed the slight risk described by Wakefield.

    Once Wakefield published his fraudulent research, every researcher in medicine and vaccines scrambled to test this silliness, because researchers were concerned that the whole vaccination system would collapse and diseases once thought to extinct. They did so not to protect the vaccine business, but because they wanted to understand why and how to avert any damage. What they found was NOTHING.

    And I use more words than Lawrence again. 🙂

    Like

  55. May 29, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    And now show me what choice my child has after suffering a stroke after his first DPT vaccination. Show me evidence o’ scientific documentation czar of the safety of this vaccines they are ramming into our children. And what happened with the H1N1 Flu Pandemic, Scientific Mind. I guess the autism rate of 1 in 80 doesn’t mean anything to you either dimlight. Just another educated lemming in the process of falling over the waterfall.

    Like

  56. Chris
    May 29, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    Mr. Harpster, only after you show us the risk of stroke is greater from the DTP vaccine, or the presently DTaP or Tdap vaccines than any disease. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that any pertussis type vaccine causes stroke and seizures in numbers greater than diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis. Some examples:

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

    Since there were several deaths from pertussis in California and elsewhere in 2010, and they continued in 2011, we are very interested in the numbers of stroke, seizures, etc from the DTaP and Tdap that have been accurately reported.

    And as far as the H1N1 pandemic, it did exist world wide. That is the definition of a pandemic. It also tended to kill children and pregnant women. Anyway, here is a summary:
    http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm

    In the future if you have a question about the history of a disease outbreak, check with the CDC website before going to a blog article for information. You might also wish to learn how to use PubMed.

    Like

  57. amanda
    June 21, 2012 at 1:01 am

    I have a question about the Hep B vaccine. Why is it recommended to give this vaccine so early? Hep B isn’t something that an infant born to a Hep B mother would get.

    Like

  58. Chris
    June 21, 2012 at 1:34 am

    amanda:

    Hep B isn’t something that an infant born to a Hep B mother would get.

    Being born to a mother with Heb B is commonly how an infant gets hepatitis B. Also, the test for HepB is not perfect, so the HepB status of the mother is often not known. Also, very young children can get HepB by contact with other kids with by saliva and blood (like from a skinned knee). Also the younger the person is when they get HepB the more likely they will get the chronic version of it, which often leads to liver disease.

    For more information please read:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/why-universal-hepatitis-b-vaccination-isnt-quite-universal/

    Some selected bit:

    Though ~90% of infected children are initially asymptomatic, they are rarely able to clear the virus. 90% of infants and 25-50% of those 1-5 years old will become lifelong carriers.

    and:

    Hepatitis B is a major cause of worldwide morbidity and mortality. More than 1/3 of the world’s population has been infected with Hepatitis B and 5% are chronic carriers. That totals up to around 350,000,000 people chronically infected, and around 620,000 deaths from HBV yearly.

    Like

  59. lilady
    June 21, 2012 at 4:38 am

    @ Amanda: The risk of transmission of the hepatitis B virus through “vertical transmission” (mother to infant before birth or during labor) are huge. And when a newborn is infected (it is a blood-borne transmissible virus), the chances of that infant to stay infected for life are estimated by epidemiologist to vary from 40% – 90 %. The higher 90 % lifelong infection rate for newborns are based on the number of viral particles contained in the mothers bloodstream….marked by the presence of the hepatitis B “e” that indicates high potential infectivity.

    Newborns have immature immune systems and are unable to clear the virus. (An otherwise healthy adult’s risk for lifelong carrier status after exposure and contracting the virus is ~ 5 %).

    With the development of accurate blood tests and effective post-exposure prophylaxis (the first hepatitis B vaccine AND special immune globulin), administered to a newborn within 12 hours of birth, the rate of neonatal hepatitis B infections has plummeted.

    Not all household members submit themselves to testing for the presence of the virus…and not all caregivers are tested, which puts an unimmunized infant at risk for “horizontal transmission” , hence the recommendation to begin the hepatitis B series, with the first immunization, before the infant leaves the birthing facility.

    That birth dose recommendation is in place in just about every country, in accordance with the WHO recommendations. Here’s a CDC website for you to peruse…that will provide you with accurate information about the hepatitis B vaccine and its use to prevent transmission of the virus to newborns and young children:

    http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HBV/PerinatalXmtn.htm

    Like

  60. amanda
    June 24, 2012 at 9:04 am

    Thanks for response Chris and Lilady. Sorry, I actually meant to say that a child born to a HepB negative mother. I was tested and was negative. I tested again while I was pregnant and still negative so it seemed that my infant getting HepB was a very low likelihood. This information you provided is very helpful though. Thank you!

    Like

  61. lilady
    June 24, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Hi Amanda: I so enjoy posts from intelligent moms, who ask questions about vaccines. Please come back and post again…and using this site and other science-based sites for information about vaccine 🙂

    Like

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s