Should Doctors Refuse Patients Who Refuse?
Mar 13, 2012

Week after week, I read about doctors who are refusing patients who refuse vaccines.  It’s an ongoing debate that has drawn a great deal of commendation and criticism.
On the one hand, doctors are admired for taking a strong stand in support of timely immunizations.  They typically make these policy decisions based on a number of different reasons.

  • They understand that there is no scientific reason to deny vaccines or even delay them.
  • They don’t want to see their patients at risk of contracting a preventable disease if they remain unvaccinated.
  • They don’t want to put other patients at risk in their waiting rooms.

But until yesterday, I hadn’t even considered that doctors may also want to protect themselves from both liability and disease.
Take the story of pediatrician Dr. Lori Breaux in yesterday’s USA Today article.  Tennessean writer Tom Wilemon explains how Dr. Breaux  had to admit her own 2-week-old infant into an intensive care unit with whooping cough after she had treated a patient with the disease.  Upon reading this I realized that I had never stopped to think about the risk to the doctors.  Not only do they treat patients with preventable diseases, but they can easily bring them home to young or vulnerable family members.
That’s not to say that doctor’s shouldn’t treat these patients.  Of course, that is what is expected.  However, in the case of preventable diseases, I can now understand why a doctor may want to minimize the risk in the same way that Dr. Breaux has done.  She makes parents sign a waiver every time they bring an unvaccinated child in for treatment, because it’s not just about her own personal health, but also about the direct impact that is made upon others when one parent decides not to vaccinate their child.
While it is a doctor’s prerogative as to whether they will treat patients who refuse vaccines or not, I found it interesting to also consider another moral  perspective on this debate.
Just yesterday, Art Caplan from the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine posted a piece on Medscape that urged doctors not to dismiss patients who won’t vaccinate.  He explains,

“…you may have a chance at persuading them to vaccinate their children. I am going to argue that it is important to try hard to not dismiss these people but stick with them to see if you can persuade them.”

Dr. Caplan suggests that there are two reasons that parents hesitate about vaccinations;

“safety concerns and that their child is receiving too many vaccines at once.”

With respect to the safety issue, he explains that

“It isn’t a bad thing for a parent to worry about safety. It’s that they are listening to inappropriate sources. “

His suggestions to doctors were rather straight-forward.
First of all, he believes that one of the most important things doctors can do to try to overcome vaccine hesitancy is to have a good knowledge of the facts themselves. They need to know where the resources are so that they can send people to places where they can get valid information.
Additionally, he suggests that doctors be good role models.  They should not only get themselves and their families vaccinated, but they should openly share that fact with their patients.
Another important concept comes from introducing parents to the moral reasoning in regards to vaccination.

 “You are not just having your child vaccinated because you want to protect them, but you want to protect others who can’t receive vaccines, such as babies, people with immune diseases, people who have had transplants, and the elderly. You want to have your child vaccinated to protect grandmothers, grandfathers, or a new baby in the family.”

Whether it applies to the flu vaccine or the HPV vaccine, studies indicate that a doctor’s recommendations are often one of the most influential factors in parental decisions to vaccinate.  Therefore, it is not surprising that Dr. Caplan continues to suggest that doctors do their best to retain vaccine hesitant parents in an effort to provide appropriate information that may alter their decisions and ultimately lead to more protection among children.
So, what are your opinions on this subject? Should doctors protect themselves and others in their practice by refusing to see patients who refuse vaccines?  Or should doctors retain these patients in hopes of changing their minds?   

Related Posts

This guest post was written by Alethea Mshar out of concern for her son Ben.  A version of this post originally appeared on her blog Ben’s Writing, Running Mom. Like all parents, my child’s health...

Every Child By Two asks you to join in urging Congress to protect crucial funding for immunization programs.  Politics aside, if and when the Affordable Care Act is repealed, nearly $600 million in funds...

69 responses to “Should Doctors Refuse Patients Who Refuse?”

  1. Amy says:

    Pediatricians should totally refuse treatment. Parents who buy into the modern day (Jenny) McCarthyism can always find a great neighborhood chiropractor to treat their kids.

  2. Converted says:

    Great advice Amy, the public will start to learn how to find health and keep it rather than delve into disease care.

  3. Adam says:

    I agree Amy, more people might actually find the right path to health which definitely doesn’t involve vaccinations.
    Thankfully for more civilized nations this isn’t even considered, firing patients for not having a say in their child’s care. Only in the good old USA where corporations run all and pharmaceutical companies run the government regulatory agencies.
    To illustrate –

  4. Kory Oransky says:

    Why shouldn’t they be allowed to “fire” patients? Where is it written that they have to expose themselves and their families to serious health consequences due to others’ selfish behavior?
    I’m certain that the person who was responsible for exposing Dr Breaux to whooping cough, and after that, her daughter, doesn’t feel even remotely responsible for that poor child’s admission to the hospital. If that’s not sociopathic, I don’t know what is.

  5. Venna says:

    Personally, I can see both perspectives. I can see why a doctor would want to protect themselves, their family and other patients by limiting the potential for exposure to these disease by refusing to treat patients who refuse vaccines. I can see the other side too though, keep these patients around in the hopes you may be able to help them see why vaccines is a better choice, not just for their own health, but for the health of everyone else around them, particularly those who are immuno-compromised and extremely susceptible to infectious disease. Nobody ever really knows when they might wander across the path of someone who fits this description without even knowing it. If you are carrying measles but not symptomatic yet, you just exposed that person to something that would be devastating to them and even deadly.
    In my experience though dealing with most anti vaccine parents, they don’t have the ability to listen to facts and scientific data if it in any way challenges their belief that vaccines are bad. They just don’t want to hear it. Most cling to it like a religion and many people are very defensive when it comes to religious beliefs. There was a time when there were two things you didn’t bring up in casual conversation; religion and politics. I think we can now add vaccines to that list. It engenders the exact same fervor of the previous two, even when refuted with indisputable scientific fact. Personally, I would rather be right, then wrong, even if I did have to eat my words (and I have, trust me) but that’s just me.

  6. Lawrence says:

    I had this discussion with my pediatrician a while back. She really does try to work with parents & acknowledge their concerns. Ultimately, she is usually able to finish the series, even it is spaced out a bit.
    Of course, if parents don’t have that kind of relationship with their pediatrician, perhaps they should find another one – because you really should be partners in your childs’ health.

  7. I was a general pediatrician for 10 years before I specialized in developmental pediatrics, treating mostly patients with autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, learning disabilities, and genetic disorders. Every pediatrician loses money on every dose of vaccine they give, and yet they fervently support them. We have seen the harm these diseases can cause. I have seen babies die from pertussis and a good friend of mine in medical school nearly died from measles and was in the ICU for 3 weeks. I’ve seen chicken pox so bad it was like a whole body burn. I do not know a single pediatrician who does not vaccinate their children. Yes you should be a partner in your child’s care, but you should also respect and listen to the people who know the most about the subject – the doctors who really know the data.

    • Steve Michaels says:

      Do you have a source that shows that pediatricians lose money on vaccines? I have directly contradictory information from a non-medical source about incomes for various professions which shows that vaccine commissions from pushing pharmaceutical products can significantly increase earnings. It only makes sense that well-baby visits only generate an office visit charge, but vaccinating at the same time can vastly increase the profitability of those visits which, I am sure it’s only coincidence (sarcasm intended), are exactly timed to the recommended vaccination schedule.,_General/Salary

  8. Lawrence says:

    Exactly Patricia – I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. I respect the opinion of my pediatrician and we have the type of relationship where these issues can be discussed openly, honestly, with mutual respect.
    She is the expert, but she still listens – which is key.

  9. aimee, pediatric rn says:

    As a pediatric RN, this comes up a lot. Just this fall I had to be treated in the ER for pertussis given to me by a patient whose family chooses not to vaccinate. I am vaccinated as are my children. The main problem ws that I was pregnant with a high risk pregnancy and also that I have asthma. Some of the best treatments were not available to me for these reasons.
    As medical professionals we always run the risk that we (or our families) will be infected by those we are seeking to treat. We do our best to protect ourselves, and take where we cannot protect ourselves. However, it may also put the patients that we see at risk after our exposure as well if we don’t yet know we are ill.
    With all things, it is important that you find a physician whose values match your own while caring for your child and that you (both) have the information you need to make appropriate decisions for your family and community.

    • Steve Michaels says:

      I am sorry you had to suffer illness whilst pregnant, but I do have a couple of questions. Firstly, you say that you contracted pertussis from a family that chose not to vaccinate. Did that family actually have a laboratory confirmed case of pertussis or are you assuming that you contracted it from them because they were not vaccinated?
      You also blame the unvaccinated family for your illness, yet you claim that you were vaccinated. Why is there absolutely no claim that you were given a useless vaccine as opposed to blaming other people for the illness? If you were vaccinated, by provax dogma, you should have been protected.
      I point this out and question this because we had an incident in our house with our dogs and ineffective vaccines. We have three unvaccinated dogs, my in-laws had a dog and we fostered a rescue dog. The rescue dog was vaccinated against kennel cough 3 days before we picked her up. My in-laws’ dog also received annual vaccinations, including kennel cough. 5 days after we got the rescue dog, she developed an eye infection. This is a common first manifestation of kennel cough. Within 48 hours, she had full blown kennel cough. Within another 72 hours, ALL of the dogs, vaccinated or not contracted full blown kennel cough. We immediately contacted the rescue upon the initial diagnosis of the rescue dog and were informed that there were absolutely no other cases of kennel cough with the rescue’s kennels. Would you blame my unvaccinated dogs who were perfectly healthy up until being exposed to a recently vaccinated dog or would you blame the vaccine for creating a mini epidemic? Incidentally, no other dogs outside of this group in my neighborhood contracted kennel cough.

    • cia parker says:

      What were the best treatments that you weren’t able to get? My understanding is that a toxin produced by the pertussis bacterium breaks off the cilia in the air passages that move mucus up to be coughed out. The coughing of pertussis is so frequent, long, and violent because the cilia have been destroyed and can’t do their job, and you just have to wait for them to grow back. That’s why antibiotics don’t work to shorten the diseases or alleviated the coughing. I know that my nine-month old (vaccinated) daughter caught it and coughed for over a month, gave it to me, and I coughed over two months.

  10. Amanda says:

    Doctors can fire patients for being late chronically or any reason they see fit. I think a discussion is warranted to educate, but if there’s an ideological issue that can’t be addressed or resolved through evidence, its for the good of the many to fire the patient.
    I would hope they make clear at the same appointment, honestly.

  11. Terrie says:

    There are some good little video clips on the CDC website for parents. There is one where families speak about suddenly losing a child to influenza. It is very moving. Another clip has a pediatrician from the CDC speaking to a group of parents about vaccines and autism.

  12. My Two Hats says:

    I am a pediatrician/mom who strongly believes that vaccination is very important and safe for the vast majority of kids. My own son is vaccinated. Yet, I don’t refuse to see families who are vaccine-hesitant. Instead, I work to form a trusting relationship and talk through difficult decisions with families. I wrote about this issue recently on my blog at I think this issue is important for all child health providers to think about.

  13. The American Academy of Pediatrics, in a clinical report on “Responding to Parental Refusals of Immunization of Children,” states that when parents refuse vaccines, pediatricians should ‘revisit the immunization discussion at each subsequent appointment,’ since many ‘will ultimately accept some or all vaccinations after repeated discussions during which the provider has listened to the parents concerns and addressed them in a non-condescending manner.’
    The AAP does state that ‘when a substantial level of distrust develops, significant differences in the philosophy of care emerge, or poor quality of communication persists, the pediatrician may encourage the family to find another physician or practice,’ but this doesn’t seem to apply to the offices that simply refuse to see kids who aren’t vaccinated according to the CDC schedule.
    Now I am about as pro-vax as they get.
    This is my license plate:!/AboutPediatrics/media/slideshow?
    But unless there is some evidence that the practice of refusing to see parents who refuse actually improves vaccination rates, it doesn’t seem like a good idea. I instead try to use a step-wise approach and suggests websites and books that can combat some of the misinformation they have been influenced by and stress the importance of getting up-to-date on vaccines if they are going to be in a high-risk situation.

  14. Hmm, interesting points here. I lean toward the side of not letting unvaxed kids in. Perhaps some doctors could choose to let them in but make sure all parents/patients are apprised of the fact that there might be some unvaccinated kids. Or perhaps let them in only on certain days so the rest of us can still see the doctor without having to worry.

  15. Steve Michaels says:

    Justinr :

    Hardly an inspiring report. Firstly, it is a news report without any foundational support, secondly, it only deals with less than half of the vaccines on the recommended schedule (that’s called ‘cherry picking’) and thirdly, they get their numbers about a random 17% to 28% add on to actual costs from the AAP, which aside from directly funding ECBT and this site as well, also receives over 95% of it’s funding from the pharmaceutical industry. Hardly an unbiased source.

    • Nathan says:

      it only deals with less than half of the vaccines on the recommended schedule (that’s called ‘cherry picking’)

      You’re really not adept with these terms. It would be cherry picking if you could provide evidence that the other vaccines are money makers, indicating that Athena Health might have chosen those eight specifically to come to a certain conclusion. I’m willing to bet money that you don’t have that.
      If you bothered to look at the actual study, you would have found that they looked at influenza, varicella, rotavirus, MMR, HPV, and three combinations of DTaP, IPV, HepB, and polio. The only major vaccines that seem to be ommitted are hep A, pneumococcus, and meningococcus (generally for teens), and perhaps a couple other combo vaccines (TDaP, etc). You think those are the gravy train vaccines? Why?
      And certainly you don’t deny that there is a cost in storing and administering vaccines. The 17%-28% cost is not a “random” figure by the AAP, but one with a rationale, here:
      And based on several studies listed therein. If you disagree, you’re going to actually have to have some kind of evidence. It is not enough to call conflict of interest. You still actually have to show how they are wrong.
      Oh, and it is not the only study showing that doctors do not profit from vaccinations.
      “We conclude that the vaccination portion of the business model for primary care pediatric practices that serve private-pay patients results in little or no profit from vaccine delivery. When losses from vaccinating publicly insured children are included, most practices lose money.”

      • Steve Michaels says:

        Nathan, NOTHING from the AAP carries any weight. The organization is almost entirely funded by the pharmaceutical industry (95+%). They have a vested interest in providing profit minimizing reports for public consumption. My source is completely unbiased. It is not related to ANY industry. Oh, you forgot to bring that up because it undermines your claims, I guess.

      • Nathan says:

        Your source simply gives salary information about pediatricians, Steve. It says nothing about income derived or lost from vaccines. You have been presented with two studies demonstrating that vaccines are not profitable to doctors, and in fact usually lose money. You have nothing in response except to dismiss them out of hand without an actual critique. And a citation for that 95% would be great as I suspect is is just another number you made up.

  16. cia parker says:

    The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons said that doctors should absolutely not refuse to treat patients who refused vaccination. It said that the safety testing of vaccines was limited and the data unavailable for public scrutiny. It said that mass vaccination was a human experiment and was subject to the Nuremberg Code requiring informed consent to any medical procedure. It found that the process of vaccine approval and placement on a recommended or mandated schedule of vaccines was tainted with conflicts of interest.
    That puts doctors who fire patients who refuse vaccines right up there with Dr. Mengele.

  17. cia parker says:

    I am addressing this to those parents who are genuinely seeking the information necessary to decide whether or not to get their children some or all of the recommended vaccinations, not those of you paid to defend vaccines. The AP just released the CDC’s new figures for the incidence of autism in the U.S. (figures are MUCH lower for most other countries): it’s now one in 88 children, one in 48 boys. In 2010, just two years ago, it was one in 100. In 2006 one in 110. In 2002 it was one in 150.
    If you want to keep your child out of this devastating mudslide, you’ll need to gather enough courage to refuse vaccines for your child, and please, at least consider the information from sources like the books by Cynthia Cournoyer, Wendy Lydall, Randall Neustaedter, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Hilary Butler, and Aviva Jill Romm, as well as websites like ageofautism and therefusers. There’s no replay button if your child has a severe vaccine reaction, no way in most cases to reverse the damage. My child has autism because she reacted to the hep-B vaccine at birth, and lost her only two words at 18 months when she got a DTaP booster, and didn’t say them or anything else until she was 34 months old, and still doesn’t talk very well.

  18. Steve Michaels says:

    Nathan :
    Your source simply gives salary information about pediatricians, Steve. It says nothing about income derived or lost from vaccines. You have been presented with two studies demonstrating that vaccines are not profitable to doctors, and in fact usually lose money. You have nothing in response except to dismiss them out of hand without an actual critique. And a citation for that 95% would be great as I suspect is is just another number you made up.

    Can you explain where these pediatricians are getting their ‘commissions’ from then? These ‘commissions’ can account for up to 60% of income. This is not small potatoes. What consistent products are pediatricians giving to their patients so regularly that they account for such a large portion of income? The ONLY thing that pediatricians push on ALL patients is vaccines.

    • Nathan says:

      You’re kidding, right? You based your whole argument on the word “commission” on payscale? Try reading this:
      “In December 2010, PayScale reported average salaries based on 1,361 professionals employed in this occupation reporting their salary and benefits… Some employers offer pediatric doctors commissions based on factors such as the amount of patients a pediatric doctor cares for. Average commissions ranged from $101 to $3,931 per year. The total compensation including base salary, bonuses, profit sharing and commissions ranged from $101,941 to $149,206 per year.”
      I don’t know how you got “60% of income,” but note that the “commissions” part is a range, from zero to over 300,000 dollars, not an average. So, out of 1000 people who took the survey, somebody reported a big commission. Probably Dr. Bob from his book sales. Or, a typo. Who knows. Regardless, no evidence of a vaccine windfall.

  19. Steve Michaels says:

    Nathan :

    As such, they can speak openly.

    Indeed, including stuff they make up, and stuff that is a threat to public health. But although they espouse some horrifying positions, a small, little-known, non-credible political/medical organization like the AAPS is hardly, on the whole, scary. Nor is their opinion have merit in this discussion.

    Empty accusations and ad hominem attack Nathan. It does, however, fit with cognitive dissonance. If you find what they espouse to be ‘horrifying’ because it undermines your own belief system, then you MUST describe them as “horrifying” or else YOU are the real monster. Please enlighten me as to what motive this organization has to lie about things. I can easily show, and have already shown, what motivations the AAP and the CDC have to lie, so please return the favor and show what conflicts of interest exist with the AAPS to motivate them to be dishonest. Thank you.

    • Nathan says:

      I would be happy to explore them. Please first cite for me evidence of your claim that the AAP is funded 95% or more by pharmaceutical companies.

  20. Steve Michaels says:

    Why must I first cite the AAP information? I asked you for the motives of AAPS and you obfuscate (my word of the day) by asking for info about AAP, What this really tells me is that you have no answer for my question about AAPS. AAPS freely ‘admit’ that they do not accept money from industry or government. AAP do not. I can prove my point if needs be, but at this point the onus is on you. Do not try to side step by shifting the onus to me when I am the one asking you the question.

  21. Nathan says:

    I asked you first. The 95%, specifically. It should not be difficult for you to support this very specific claim. “Man up,” as you said.

    • Chris says:

      Oh, I see Mr. Michaels said on March 22nd:

      AAP, which aside from directly funding ECBT and this site as well, also receives over 95% of it’s funding from the pharmaceutical industry. Hardly an unbiased source.

      And again today:

      Nathan, NOTHING from the AAP carries any weight. The organization is almost entirely funded by the pharmaceutical industry (95+%).

      Yes, Mr. Michaels should really back that up.

    • Steve Michaels says:

      How childish are you being? ‘I asked you first”??!! Actually no you didn’t. I asked you to show me that AAPS had conflicts of interest through funding and you replied with, ‘show me the 95% of AAP”. You are avoiding the question. I can and will answer when you ‘man up’.

      • Chris says:

        Actually, the issue is whether or not AAPS is a good journal that can be trusted for good information. It cannot, as I pointed out on two issues that it has really screwed up. Plus that it is not indexed in PubMed.
        And I did not even mention the publication of papers that switch the blame of evil people who kill babies by shaking them to death to vaccines by Buttram and Yazbak. You cannot deny those papers exist in both Medical Sentinel or JPANDS.
        But you made the claim on both the 22nd and 29th that the American Academy of Pediatrics is 95% funded by “Big Pharma.” It is up to you to prove that rather outlandish claim.

      • Nathan says:

        How childish are you being? ‘I asked you first”??!! Actually no you didn’t.

        Would you prefer I said “Your onus predates my onus?” I requested evidence of your claim that the AAP “receives 95% of it’s [sic] funding from the pharmaceutical industry” on March 29th at 6:35 p.m. when I said “And a citation for that 95% would be great as I suspect it is just another number you made up,” preceding your demand for AAPS’s “motives to be dishonest” by half an hour.
        I’m still waiting for this evidence, as it is quite relevant to this conversation. Or, an admission that you did indeed make that figure up will suffice.

  22. […] continues to be an area that they are concerned about.  Although there are some doctors who refuse to see patients who remain unvaccinated, and others like Dr. Bob Sears who prefer to accommodate parental hesitancy by suggesting that […]

  23. Lawrence says:

    cia parker :
    Be that as it may, parents would not bring their babies in every few months if it were not for getting them shots. I’ve read that most pediatricians get between 60 and 70% of their income from vaccines, but I don’t know how it breaks down between the shots themselves and the well-baby visit in which they are given.

    Wow – so all of that other stuff that my Pediatrician does, including making sure thta my children are meeting their milestones & checking on general health, answering all of our questions about diet, activities, teeth, etc, etc, etc. are just part of the big Pharma Conspiracy to deliver these “oh so expensive vaccines?”

  24. cia parker says:

    Do the pediatricians who try to compel vaccination against the wishes of the parents take responsibility when the vaccines permanently damage the child, as they often do? My daughter got encephalitis from the hep-B vaccine, and was later diagnosed with autism. The immune system frequently reacts to vaccines with some degree of encephalitis. Dr. Sears says that in most cases they recover without apparent damage, but that in some cases they are permanently damaged or killed. Is it a pediatrician’s place to insist on an invasive procedure which kills a certain number of the patients? Michael Belkin’s daughter was killed by the hep-B vaccine. Judy Converse’s son, like my daughter, had encephalitis caused by it and bowel disease, also with subsequent autism. Kaylynne Matten got a high fever the day after she got a routine flu vaccine, and died four days after the shot. Hannah Poling developed autism a short time after getting nine vaccines at once, and was compensated millions for it. Nine of the Lancet Twelve got bowel disease and autism within days or weeks of the MMR, the other three just bowel disease. These are just a few names off the top of my head, but there are hundreds of thousands more. And then you must add in the hundreds of thousands who get asthma from vaccines, as well as other autoimmune diseases.
    Does society have the right to force vaccination even knowing that a large number of children will be damaged by it? Does preventing many children from getting usually mild diseases like measles or chickenpox justify killing or permanently damaging some of them? Or preventing a handful from dying of rare but very serious diseases like meningitis justify damaging a lot of people? if you read books like those by Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Randall Neustaedter, Cynthia Cournoyer, Wendy Lydall, Hilary Butler, the book Age of Autism, or Vaccine Epidemic, you will see enormous amounts of specific information about the reasons vaccines often damage, citations of hundreds of scientific studies published in reputable journals, thousands of cases of damage reported to the VAERS, and the experiences friends, relatives, and neighbors share with each other of vaccine-damaged people in their acquaintance. An honest person would have at the very least to say that we who believe the vaccines are much more dangerous than the diseases are sincere and should not be insulted or belittled.

    • Kelly says:

      An honest person would have at the very least to say that we who believe the vaccines are much more dangerous than the diseases are sincere and should not be insulted or belittled.

      An honest person wouldn’t keep saying their child is vaccine injured when they are not. Just because a dishonest person believes their child is vaccine injured, does not mean they are.
      You admitted that the diagnosis of encephalitis after hepB vaccine is your own and not a doctors. You didn’t file a case in vaccine court because you couldn’t get a doctor to verify your story. Your lawyer didn’t even believe you.
      Michael Belkin’s daughter died of SIDS.
      Kaylynne Matten died of viral myocarditis.
      Hannah Poling inherited a mitochondrial disorder from her mother which was triggered by a high fever after her vaccinations. Any illness causing a fever would have triggered the condition and the condition is unrelated to vaccines.
      Wakefield’s work has been totally discredited and not confirmed by any other researcher. MMR vaccines does not cause autism.
      Asthma is not associated with vaccines, neither are autoimmune diseases.
      Nobody is being forced to vaccinate.
      Measles and chicken pox are not “mild diseases”. Both have the potential to kill and cause serious consequences.
      Vaccines are orders of magnitudes safer than the diseases they prevent.
      Then you refer people to others that are just as ignorant about vaccines as you. VAERS data does not indicate causation. Correlation does not equal causation.
      We have gone over this repeatedly cia. You do know better, yet you continue to lie.

      • cia parker says:

        My lawyer did believe me, but said that politically at this time it was not permitted to find that vaccines often cause autism because the stakes are so high for the medical industry. have I already attached his letter? Do you want me to? How do you differentiate between an honest person believing this and a dishonest person? When a baby cries inconsolably and constantly for even three hours in a row, it is currently recommended that you take them to the ER as that’s often the primary and only symptom of encephalitis. If a baby cries that way for four days and nights, crying literally all night and refusing to eat because of the pain, losing one pound two ounces in two days, what would you say the cause is, in the absence of any infectious disease? You do not know what killed Kaylynne Matten, her parents and countless others think her getting a high fever and severe headache the day after the flu shot and dying four days after it were caused by the shot. You weren’t there, you don’t know. Measles, chickenpox, and whooping cough are nearly always mild diseases, I’ve had all three of them and my daughter has had two of them. We had typical forms of them, meaning mild and conferring permanent immunity.
        Hannah Poling’s mother has a marker in a gene that is unusual and which it is hypothesized may be related to a mitochondrial disorder, but since she has worked full-time as a lawyer, a nurse, and a mother, it is obvious that her mitochondria are doing their job of producing energy just fine. Again, you and your cronies are hypothesizing without knowledge.
        Michael Belkin’s daughter died four hours after the hep-B vaccine, an autopsy showed that her brain was swollen from encephalitis caused by the vaccine. Your attempt to say it was SIDS, which really just means infant death from unknown cause, is just a way to ineffectually cast the blame somewhere other than vaccines. So what was it, a thunderbolt from God?
        Dozens of studies have proven that asthma is usually caused by the pertussis vaccine. Why do you think that one in nine children vaccinated for pertussis has asthma, but only one in fifty children who have not been have it? Another thunderbolt from God?
        The judge who exonerated Dr. Wakefield’s colleague on the Lancet study, Dr. Walker-Smith, Sir John Mitting, said that there was no fraud, the doctors had appropriately treated the children for their diseases, the GMC had behaved culpably and reached false conclusions. He reprimanded it and restored Dr. Walker-Smith’s license. So why do you persist in saying the Lancet study was fraudulent and discredited? The judge delayed judgment for several weeks so he could research the case more thoroughly, and after studying it carefully, arrived at the decision I have referred to, an act of great courage in the present climate of torture the messenger. Look up his decision yourself. The doctors observed the twelve children and recorded the findings of gastro-intestinal inflammation in a professional way. Their illnesses, including autism for nine of the twelve, started within days or weeks of the MMR. This is a fact, and you can try to tear it and the messengers to pieces for the rest of your life, but the bottom line is that for many thousands of parents, measles would be preferable to a lifetime of permanent disability. Nine out of thirty thousand who got measles last year in Europe died, the other 29,991 got well and now have permanent immunity and the ability to protect their babies with their breastmilk in their most vulnerable year. In the U.S. they’re still saying three out of every thousand die, unwilling to update their propaganda with facts on the ground. To me that seems dishonest, and I’m really not interested in knowing how you justify your refusal to assimilate facts.

      • Chris says:

        Their illnesses, including autism for nine of the twelve, started within days or weeks of the MMR. This is a fact, and you can try to tear it and the messengers to pieces for the rest of your life, but the bottom line is that for many thousands of parents, measles would be preferable to a lifetime of permanent disability.

        Please answer this question that I have asked you many times before: The MMR vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1971, what evidence is there that autism started to increase there starting in the early 1970s? Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed journals documenting this increase of autism, and make sure they are dated before 1997.
        Also, you forgot that one out of thousand people who get measles become permanently disabled. As I have pointed out to you several times from The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review:

        Postinfectious encephalomyelitis (PIE) occurs in 13 per 1000 infected persons, usually 3–10 days after onset of rash [39, 131]. Higher rates of PIE due to measles occur in adolescents and adults than in school-aged children (table 2 [124, 132, 133]). PIE usually begins with the abrupt onset of new fever, seizures, altered mental status, and multifocal neurological signs [131, 134]. Although measles virus was found in cerebrovascular endothelial cells in a person who died during the first few days of rash [135], the virus usually is not found in the central nervous systems of persons with PIE. PIE appears to be caused by an abnormal immune response that affects myelin basic protein [61, 136]. As many as 25% of people with PIE due to measles die, and ∼33% of survivors have lifelong neurological sequelae, including severe retardation, motor impairment, blindness, and sometimes hemiparesis [39, 131].

        And to continue from: Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation:

        Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.

        Again, Ms. Parker, please stop lying.

  25. Lara Lohne says:

    cia parker,
    How many children do you have? If you have more then one then you should know, ALL BABIES CRY INCONSOLABLY AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN TOLD TO TAKE ANY OF MY SIX TO THE ER FOR CRYING. There are any number of things that can cause brain swelling. Have you heard of shaken baby syndrome? Causes brain swelling and usually happens if a baby is crying inconsolably, that is why they educate parents about shaken baby syndrome in hospitals now so they will know about the inconsolable crying and that sometimes you need to put the baby down and walk away because shaking a baby can cause brain swelling, hemorrhaging, permanent injury and death.
    There are also some babies that cry more then others. My youngest son, who has autism, cried a lot more then any of my others and has had sleep issues and eating issues since day one (a common occurrence in children with autism.) I’ve never had a child who came with so many challenges from the day he was born. I recognize it for what it is now that I know he has autism. That isn’t something he caught, he had it from birth and even before. The genetic markers for it were there before I even knew I was pregnant. You can’t just ignore science and research and all the findings that are showing genetic causes more anymore. Well, I suppose YOU can, but that would be really silly not to allow yourself to be open to all the possibilities out there, particularly when they are also finding medications that can help alleviate symptoms now, just as they have for mental disorders that have differences in the same genes (schizophrenia).
    A lawyer or judge is not a scientist therefore cannot state whether or not research was fraudulent. He didn’t rule on the research done anyway, just whether or not Walker-Smith’s license to practice should have been revoked, that doesn’t say anything about the research nor the conclusions drawn from it. Parents of the Lancet children have admitted after the fact that the data submitted regarding their children was inaccurate and in some cases down right incorrect.
    Another thing, having pertussis does not provide life long immunity. Immunity to pertussis, whether from the vaccine or the natural illness wanes after about 6 to 10 years and you can get it again and generally the second time around it will be worse. I had it in high school. I coughed uncontrollably for literally three months straight. There is nothing mild about a cough that makes eating impossible because everything from swallowing to talking to just breathing irritates your trachea and sends you into a 5 to 10 minute coughing spell that leaves you dry heaving at the end of it. Blood vessels burst in your eyes from the pressure of the coughs, bruised lungs and ribs from the force of the cough. And then once the disease is gone, there’s the lasting damage that gives me the lung capacity of an elderly woman and asthma like symptoms even though I don’t technically have asthma. I can’t laugh too hard because it will set off an attack. And after 6 – 10 years I may get to go through it all over again? No thank you, give me that damn shot!
    You don’t speak for everyone who has suffered from vaccine preventable diseases, nor do you speak for every parent with a child who has autism. You need to remember that, you speak for yourself and rarely can you offer significant citations on your claims. That makes your claims subject to skepticism. If they can’t stand up to logic, reason and science, then your claims are just noise from an echo chamber, not truth at all and you have already lost much credibility here.

  26. gwen says:

    First Do no harm. Is it harm to not treat? Earaches? Seizures? Do doctors have the right to not treat a heart condition if person is not vaccinated? Or asthma? Just saying it goes against their first law. The law of caring. Militancy is not caring. I suppose then if a doctor (goebels) decides that someone needs to be treated to make them sterile because he thinks that is best we do that too. Thin end of the wedge people. Be careful, your pet item may be mission creep of militants! And add to that your waiting room is not safe- the guy who got the flu even though vaccinated with a different strain comes in for a work release sitting there spewing his germs everywhere. How he is a safe member of society after all flu kills! and an unvaccinated healthy person in for a checkup is not safe?

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Gwen, ‘The Do no harm’ applies to all their patients. If someone is infected with a VPD and comes into the waiting room, how many other people may be infected by that person, including infants too young to be vaccinated? I would much prefer going to a doctor that insisted all their patients are vaccinated then one who didn’t because I, myself am not fully vaccinated yet,and I have suffered VPDs before as a child and don’t wish to suffer through any others. Until I am able to get vaccinated fully, I’d prefer not to risk being infected if at all possible. Vaccines do far, far less harm then VPDs do, (and I’m not talking about flu) so really, if a doctor has a patient that is unvaccinated and comes into the office with a bad cough, which turns out to be pertussis, how many people in the office who are too young to be vaccinated or whose immunity from vaccine or boosters has waned and they are exposed and get sick? What about measles, HIB and all the other diseases that can be prevented greatly by vaccines? A doctor refusing to have unvaccinated patients is no different from any other business refusing service to someone, and many business have some kind of disclosure that says they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Many of the things you have listed (asthma, heart disease, seizures) are disorders that can be greatly complicated by adding a VPD into the mix and it would be dangerous to not have people with these disorders vaccinated. Therefore, it would be irresponsible for any doctor to treat people with these conditions in an office where unvaccinated and potential VPD carriers will also be seen. That is asking for trouble, in my opinion. Last time I checked an earache doesn’t have any treatment other then pain medication, and not all earaches are infections, some are just due to sinus pressure from cold or allergies so it isn’t really anything a doctor can treat other then recommend pain medication or decongestants. As a paying customer of my doctor, I expect him to take my health into consideration, as well as the health of all his other customers. If I found my doctor treated unvaccinated people (but my doctor is very pro-vaccine, including adolescent and adult boosters) I would take my business elsewhere. I have that right, just as you have the right to seek a doctor who is less particular in who he will accept as a customer.

  27. Nathan says:

    Earaches? Seizures? Do doctors have the right to not treat a heart condition if person is not vaccinated? Or asthma?

    Doctors can refuse to see whomever they choose, provided it is not an emergency and adequate treatment can be arranged elsewhere. In this case that generally means giving the patient a set period of time, perhaps one month, to find another primary care provider before refusing service. There is no violation of the Hippocratic oath in that.

  28. lilady says:

    “I suppose then if a doctor (goebels) decides that someone needs to be treated to make them sterile because he thinks that is best we do that too. Thin end of the wedge people.”
    Whatever are you ranting about gwen? The subject of this thread is a doctor’s right to ask parents who are firmly anti-vaccine, to seek another health care provider for their child(ren).
    A physician has the right to tell parents, who are so vehemently opposed to vaccines, to take their business elsewhere. IMO, even before a child is seen for the first time in a practice, doctors would do well to provide parents with a strongly worded written vaccine policy statement, detailing that the doctor does not want to put other children at risk from exposure to unvaccinated children.
    Parents who are intelligent and knowledgeable about the value of timely and complete immunizations, should also question the physician about her/his vaccine policy…to make a determination if a lose vaccine policy is worth the risks to their child(ren). After all, such parents do not have the *benefit* of finding pro-vaccine doctors on the internet, the way that vehemently anti-vaccine parents can *locate* a *friendly* doctor whose names, locations and office phone numbers, are readily located on the internet.
    BTW, your analogy about goebels (sic) and forced sterilization is inappropriate here.
    Thin end of reason and sanity, people?

  29. Sammy says:

    Mother’s PLEASE research more about Vaccine’s… too many cases, way too much evidence that show the dangers of these Vaccines.
    A lot have been suppressed from the public.
    No ones health is getting better.. infact disease in on the uprise. Vaccines only suppress ones natural Immunity.
    I would NEVER subject my children to these TOXINS. Its a big scam pushed by Big pharmaceuticals.
    (I am In Health, a qualified Holistic Kinesiologist.)
    Please research Doctor Mercola, he’s a trusted doctor & many more like him …

  30. Sammy says:

    Come on guys, what a joke! Im mean pure logic would says …if Vaccine’s really work then why does medical professionals jump out & down on the ‘unvaccinated’ saying they will put those vaccinated at risk???!!!! Ha STOP & think about it for 1minute as it makes no sense.
    Obviously it is all pressure to get everyone ‘shot up’ ..purely SCARE TACTICS & INTIMIDATION & $$$$ money.

    • Lara Lohne says:

      Calling Mercola ‘a trusted doctor’ is quite a stretch when everything he has done for the anti-vaccine movement has been solely about filling his own pocket with cash. The same is true of any other doctor who has jumped on that band wagon. In my opinion, they are only in the game for the money they see, not for the health of the people in their care.
      There is plenty of research out there regarding the risks of vaccines, and when weighed against the risk of disease, sorry but vaccines come out far, far ahead of disease. So forgive me if I offend you but I choose vaccines for my children and my children are far from unhealthy. I have done my research, the hard way. None of the sources that you could site would be able to hold up against scientific scrutiny. Opinion, personal anecdotes and ‘expert’ statements from people with backgrounds in accounting, electrical engineering and law are not nearly as convincing to me as people who have conducted studies, observed outcomes and are experts in biology, virology, epidemiology and so forth. When one reviews all the data with a logical mind, truth, fact and science come out on top every time.
      Vaccines are not 100% effective, this has been known and never has anyone claimed otherwise. That is why it is so important to have a high vaccine coverage in the population. If you know anything about percentages and ratios, the higher number of people who are vaccinated, if the percentage of vaccine uptake is 97%, (easily stated as 97 out of 100 people) that leaves only 3% that are not immune to the disease (3 in 100) and makes it much easier to contain any outbreak that might show itself. However, if only 75% of those 100 people are vaccinated, with only a 97% uptake, well, that changes things dramatically. You do the math, it isn’t that hard. 25 out of 100 are already not immune and are bound to get sick if they come in contact with someone else who is infected. And then those 3% who are vaccinated are also at risk because the vaccine did not create an immune response in them. That tiny little example shows also how herd immunity also works. The more people who are vaccinated, the more people who will be immune and the less likely the people who are not vaccinated or did not produce an immune response from the vaccine will be less likely to come into contact with an infected individual. That is pure logic. Try using it sometime rather then logical fallacies.

  31. Chris says:

    Sammy, since you have researched this all so well and all, perhaps you can answer some questions with some actual data instead of screaming at us about the “dangers” of vaccines.
    How do you suggest we protect babies under the age of one year from measles? That is too young to be vaccinated, and children that young who get measles have a greater chance of dying from SSPE. Be sure to support your plan by posting the evidence that it works in the form of title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed papers. The following is an article on SSPE: And another SSPE case: Angelina is dying. Please read it, and then come back with that sure fire plan to protect babies from SSPE.
    Please tell us exactly which “toxins” are in the vaccines, and post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show those “toxins” are dangerous in the amounts used in the vaccines. Be sure to compare to the actual toxins created by the bacteria that cause tetanus, pertussis and diphtheria. We would be especially interested in how any ingredient in a vaccine compares to tetanospasmin.
    And perhaps you can point us to the specific PubMed indexed papers that show that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Please do not post videos, random websites or news reports, just the title, journal and date of the studies that support your statements. For example:
    BMC Public Health. 2011 May 19;11:340.
    Congenital rubella syndrome and autism spectrum disorder prevented by rubella vaccination–United States, 2001-2010.
    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.
    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S210-5.
    Measles hospitalizations, United States, 1985-2002.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
    Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

  32. lilady says:

    (I am In Health, a qualified Holistic Kinesiologist.)
    And I REALLY am in health, a licensed Registered Nurse, with a degree BSc-Nursing and a recently retired public health nurse/clinician. What is a “qualified Holistic Kinesiologist.” Sammy?
    Please research Doctor Mercola, he’s a trusted doctor & many more like him …
    I have researched Dr. Mercola…he is not a trusted doctor…he’s a quack and a snake oil salesman who targets his “marks”, like you, (an uneducated, unlicensed unqualified-in-any-health care profession), to sell his line of supplements, gadgets and gizmos.
    Try again troll.

  33. Lawrence says:

    @Sammy – Mercola, an expert? Wow, you really are on the Woo-gravy train, aren’t you….you also realize that vaccines have been around for a while now, we do actually have more than a bit of research that shows that they are much safer than the diseases they prevent, and more effective?
    Otherwise, you are just another troll.

  34. Chris says:


    All im saying is you might want to research this a bit further!

    So you listed a bunch of scary sounding ingredients. Now go and list the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers showing they are dangerous in the amounts contained in a vaccine. That is what someone who actually does real research would do.
    They would not just parrot stuff they read on teh internets. They would actually go to the primary sources of evidence. That way you find the information that was deliberately left out. NVIC and Mercola tend to leave out important bits of information in their scaremongering screeds.

  35. Sammy says:

    Thank you for opening up with your story & Im really sorry about what you & your family had to endured.. & i mean it, as that is very unfortunate.
    There are cases after cases who have actually had the vaccines & ended up a lot worse..autism & other disorders.
    Or ended up with measles later on in life, when vaccine wears off which could be 10times worse or death.
    Surely you can agree that this is extreme the amount of vaccines & doses 20-30 they pump out into young babies who are forming there own natural immunity.
    Im sorry but i think this amount is totally outrageous & many specialist agree & are taking a stand also!
    Young forming babies let alone a full grown adult do not need these, & they do not need all the Neuro-toxic ingredients that are in these vaccines. Which mind you do rapidly work there way into the bloodstream & head straight to the brain!
    Check them out for yourself from the chemical manufactures who have to legally supply the dangers & effects & precautions when using them. You will find that most if not all are listed as toxic to the skin, eyes & if inhaled or ingested. (LET ALONE INJECTED) 🙁
    Why do they need all these added in…simple they dont??
    Im not claiming to be an expert but i have done a lot of research right down to each drop & weighed up all sides. & yes you have to be discerning as there is a lot of misguiding information.
    Im just asking people to be more EMPOWERED & do the same & research more so they can make more empowered choices.
    Their are numerous books & articles & research documents (Science & Neuroscience) that shows more then enough evidence. Just have to search the right places.
    Russell Blaylock MD, Neurosurgeon, ‘The Truth Behind the Vaccine Cover-Up’
    Boyd Haley PhD, Professor and Chair, Department of Chemistry, University of Kentucky
    Etc etc.

  36. Sammy says:
    “All vaccine ingredients are poisonous, carcinogenic, or potentially harmful to the skin, gastro-intestinal, pulmonary, neurological and immune systems…What about formaldehyde? Are we going to wait until another brave physician or scientist writes about the damaging effects of formaldehyde on our children’s brains before we are called to demand that formaldehyde be removed? Or about Problems associated with having Polysorbate 80 in the vaccine? Polysorbate-80 is used in pharmacology to assist in the delivery of certain drugs or chemotherapeutic agents across the blood-brain barrier. What bacterial, yeast, heavy metal or other vaccine containing ingredients need to pass into the brains of our children?”
    Lawrence B. Palevsky, MD, FAAP, Pediatrician, ‘Aluminum and Vaccine Ingredients: What Do We Know? What Don’t We Know?’
    “Aluminum, a common adjuvant, has known toxicity on the kidneys with causal relationship to encephalitis, bone disease and anemia… Aluminum hydroxyl induces inflammatory reaction of the immune cells, releasing aberrant signaling proteins.”
    Barbara Brewitt, PhD, ‘MMR Vaccine and ‘Helpers’ as Toxic Agents’
    “Aspartame (artificial sweetener) is a neurotoxin. Who cares what the vaccine tastes like? Why are they putting aspartame in vaccines?”
    Rebecca Carley MD, General Surgeon, Court Qualified VIDS Expert
    “A single vaccine given to a six pound newborn is the equivalent of giving a 180 pound adult 30 vaccinations on the same day. Include the toxic effects of high levels of aluminum and formaldehyde contained in some vaccines, and the synergist toxicity could be increased to unknown levels…Bilary transport is the major biochemical route by which mercury is removed from the body, and infants cannot do this very well. They also do not possess the renal (kidney)capacity to remove aluminum. Additionally, mercury is well-known inhibitor of kidney function.”
    Boyd Haley PhD., Professor and Chair, Department of Chemistry, University of Kentucky
    “I challenged a fanatical pro-vaccinator to go on TV and allow himself to be injected with baby vaccines adjusted to his body weight… We haven’t heard back from him. I think this is a reasonable request to be issued to all vaccinators”
    Viera Scheibner PhD, Author of Several Books on Vaccination

  37. lilady says:

    @ Sammy: Why is Dr. Rebecca Carley, MD…no longer licensed as a medical doctor. Did she tell you and her followers that it was because she was against vaccination?

  38. Chris says:


    Young forming babies let alone a full grown adult do not need these, & they do not need all the Neuro-toxic ingredients that are in these vaccines.

    So how well to babies do when they actually get pertussis and measles? Why should we let them get sick? Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that the MMR and DTaP are more dangerous than measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. No more random websites, actually learn how to do real research.
    Please stop parroting every single anti-vaccine blog you have encountered, and try to learn how to read and understand the issues. Have you considered bettering yourself by going to a community college to learn how to use basic English punctuation, or some basic biology?

  39. Chris says:

    Also, not only is Dr. Carley no longer allowed to practice medicine, she has lost custody of her kids. Why is that?
    Boyd Haley has gotten in trouble for selling toxic industrial chelator to parents as a scam to “cure” their children.
    And Viera Scheibner is a geologist. Her PhD is in rocks, and has nothing to with biology. Why should we care what she writes?
    Actually, why should we care what you say, Sammy? Give us a reason to give credence to your poorly punctuated pleas for us to do research, when all you do is cut and paste from the internet? What makes you’re so special that you think that repeating the idiocy we have seen for years will convince us to abandon real science?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.