Moms Who Vaccinate, And Those Who Wish They Had
Apr 29, 2011

Often, vaccine advocates who focus on families who have suffered from vaccine preventable diseases are accused of fear mongering.  Strangely enough, fear is often what motivates people to refuse vaccines.  Fear of what most parents just don’t understand; the ingredients and the side-effects.
But what about the diseases?
One of the reasons we must actively promote vaccines is that most parents do not fear the actual diseases .  Many people don’t even realize that children can still contract these diseases.  Others feel that the diseases are not serious enough to try to avoid.   That is why we must continue to share the stories of children who have suffered or died from vaccine preventable diseases.  Not to generate fear, but rather to educate others about these diseases, illicit compassion for those who needlessly suffer and battle complacency about the risks of disease and the benefits of immunization.  This information is intended to combat the fear, not to create it.
While some may believe fear to be an effective motivator, it is not the only way to generate a response.  Earlier this week in Minnesota, where public health is threatened by a stagnant immunization rate and a current measles outbreak, the MN Department of Public Health held a press conference to highlight National Infant Immunization Week (NIIW) and help educate parents.  A significant part of the event was devoted to personal parent testimony.  

As Dr. Marilyn Peitso, chief of pediatrics at CentraCare Clinic and president of the Minnesota chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics explains, “Parents trust other parents when it comes to health information; people naturally trust their peers, so we want parents to hear from other parents.”

Perhaps this is why a group of moms from MN, called Moms Who Vax, have started their own blog and vaccine advocacy efforts.  They wish to promote social responsiblity, ensure public health and protect children.

Dr. Thomas Schrup, pediatrician and associate medical director of CentraCare Clinic added, “We also live in an era where there is a tremendous amount of information available and much of it is inaccurate. The reality is everything we do in life has some risk. Vaccines have risks. But what we have to do is compare them to the risk of the disease, itself.”

The MN event included both parents who have vaccinated their children, as well as one who had not.
Shannon Peterson, whose unvaccinated daughter died in 2001 from a vaccine-preventable disease, just shy of her sixth birthday, explained that “A life-changing event — one involving your children — will make any parent regret what they could’ve done.”
I had the pleasure of meeting Shannon in person last year when she spoke in honor of World Pneumonia Day.  At the time we met, she had traveled half way across the country to share her story.  A story that, while painful, she has told countless times.  A story that she will undoubtedly tell again and again, just like she did this week in MN.  But what I find most surprising about her story is often not part of her public comments.  Despite her initial intent to vaccinate her daughter, Shannon Peterson’s pediatrician was actually the one who suggested that she forego vaccination.  When I first learned of this in a private conversation with Shannon, I was shocked.  How could she not be angry, I wondered?  Why had she not chosen to share that part of the story, I questioned?
Now, let me acknowledge the fact that just because someone is not vaccinated doesn’t automatically ensure that they will contract a vaccine preventable disease.  Hardly the case.  The majority of unvaccinated people are fortunate enough, (due in large part to the herd immunity that is provided them by the rest of the vaccinated population), never to experience what the Peterson family did.  However, in Shannon’s case, it is heartbreaking to know that a vaccine could have prevented her child’s death.
Through all of this, Shannon rarely mentions the conversation she had with her pediatrician.  In fact, she admits that her doctor was young and not very experienced.  Shannon courageously accepts complete responsibility for the fact that she did not vaccinate her daughter.  Today, she chooses not to focus on anger or fear. Instead,  she is committed to sharing her story in order to spare others the grief she has endured.  She is not bitter.  She is not judgemental.  She only wants to protect others.
Personally, I was happy to see that she was there in MN to share her daughter’s story…again.  I’m sure not a day goes by that she doesn’t wish she could change the past, but for Shannon and other parents who have lost their children, the hope is in the future.   This is not about fear.  This is about trying to reduce the fear by better protecting the ones we love through vaccination. 
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUonFVJNAds]


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1,091 responses to “Moms Who Vaccinate, And Those Who Wish They Had”

  1. Susan Pearce says:

    In your article, you said, “…fear is often what motivates people to refuse vaccines. Fear of what most parents just don’t understand; the ingredients and the side-effects.” Actually, parents who choose to not vaccinate, especially if they have done their homework, don’t make the decision out of fear, but because their knowledge of ingredients and side effects empowered them to feel confident that a healthy immune system will either keep their child from having the disease or will help him to successfully overcome it. With knowledge of ingredients and side effects, it isn’t fear that motivates the parent to not vaccinate. What motivates us? It’s confidence in the immune system that God gave humans; it’s not fear. Susan Pearce

  2. Kelly says:

    Susan, if your decision to not vaccinate is based on your faith in God, why did you bother to do all that homework on learning vaccine ingredients are safe? Especially after learning that ingredients are safe, you decide not to vaccinate anyway?
    And how do you justify those that died or just got sick from a vaccine-preventable disease? Didn’t God give those people immune systems too? If their God-given immune system failed us, how do you know that the same immune system won’t fail you and the ones you love?

  3. shad says:

    The problem with the vaccines ingredients, They are bunch of chemicals Not real ingredients made for the body.

  4. Susan Pearce says:

    Kelly, you said, “Especially after learning that ingredients are safe, you decide not to vaccinate anyway?” I did not learn that vaccine ingredients were safe. Just the opposite, in fact.
    My studying vaccination is what got me to thinking about the immune system that God created for us. I didn’t appreciate his creation of it until I learned a little about how it works. As I began to understand a little about what He had created, I could see that vaccination is not a procedure that He would want us to use.
    Yes, God gave everyone an immune system. Some are stronger than others are, though. If parents make healthy lifestyle choices before they have children, they are more apt to have children with strong immune systems. After birth, their children maintain their strong immunity if they are given healthy food, including breast milk from a healthy mother, and if their bodies are protected from pollutants. Pollutants include vaccinations with their adjuvants, foreign DNA, and other harmful ingredients.
    How can a vaccine that harms the immune system be considered a safe choice? I’d much rather trust God’s creation of an immune system than trust man’s creation of a vaccine.

  5. Kelly says:

    What do you think the body is made of, if not chemicals? Formaldehyde is in vaccines and also made by the body as a by-product of metabolism. If formaldehyde is a chemical in vaccines, what is formaldehyde in the body?

  6. Snoozie says:

    Kelly has a good point, Shad. The same can be said about aluminum. Aluminum is found in breastmilk.

  7. Kelly says:

    What about babies that have difficulty breastfeeding? Did God decide those babies should be imperfect? If so, why those babies? Should those babies be vaccinated because their God-given immune system is weak or do we just leave them to suffer? Are babies with parents that didn’t make healthy lifestyle choices destined to die due to their sins of their parents?

  8. Susan Pearce says:

    Kelly, you said, “What about babies that have difficulty breastfeeding? Did God decide . . . sins of their parents?” The parents should do their best to build their child’s immune system. Vaccines cause harm to the body, some showing up right away, but some doesn’t appear until years later – for example in the form of autoimmune disease. I don’t see the benefit of injecting harmful material into a person’s body in hopes it will prevent a disease. There are other ways to help a person through an illness than that, such as good food, homeopathy, and supplements.
    There will always be parents who make the wrong choices for their children. That doesn’t automatically make me think they should go ahead and vaccinate in hopes it will create health in their children, because it won’t create health. It will either slowly or more rapidly harm the child’s immune system.

  9. Kelly says:

    Wait Susan, what about your faith in God? Now you are using homeopathy and supplements to build the immune system God gave the child? If you reject vaccines because it expresses a lack of faith in God, how does using homeopathy and supplements also not express a lack of faith?

  10. Steve Michaels says:

    Don’t go down the religious track Susan. Kelly is a worshipper of the science of man. People like that LOVE praising those who like playing God. The universe has created over millions of years the world in which we live. Only the arrogance of man has decided that man can improve upon God’s creation with science. Unfortunately for that type of science, man does not understand unintended consequence. For example, vaccines providing short term immunity while destroying brain function, or GMO corn creating ‘super weeds’ that are pesticide resistant or overuse of antibiotics creating super bugs that antibiotics can kill. It seems that with every partial advance of arrogant science we go backward in overall health and safety. Look at nuclear energy. We were told it was safe. Now we are all being exposed to massive radiation. Oil drilling. The old stand by for energy. Look at the Gulf and the illness it has caused, not to mention frakking and the earthquakes caused by interrupting the natural structure of the Earth’s crust. Science is our friend when scientist recognize their limits. In today’s world they think they are gods when they are not.

  11. Gary says:

    Well, then, perhaps god has also decided that scientific advancement can improve on his work. Given the fact that there are much more than double the people on the planet and that they live on average twice as long as compared to when we simply trusted god, maybe that’s gods way of giving us a sign.

  12. Gary says:

    Susan, this part does not make sense to me: “parents who choose to not vaccinate, especially if they have done their homework, don’t make the decision out of fear, but because their knowledge of ingredients and side effects empowered them to feel confident that a healthy immune system will either keep their child from having the disease or will help him to successfully overcome it.”
    I presume you mean the ingredients and possible side effects of vaccinations. How would this evidence lead you to believe that the immune system without the vaccination will prevent the disease. I can understand how such information could be scary at least towards those side effects. But it does not make sense that knowledge of vaccine ingredients or possible side effects would give you information about the human immune system. It sound much more like you are confirming the story and simply hoping that doing without vaccines will be better.

  13. Gary says:

    Perhaps because homeopathy and supplements don’t work?

  14. AnnPC says:

    Kelly,
    I was injured by Hep B vaccine on my doctoral internship. I personally lived through Guillain Barre after the 2nd shot, Aseptic Meningitis after the 3rd shot, and permanent autoimmune disease as the end result of the 3 part series. I have a daughter who had severe reactions to vaccines, but I kept vaccinating because her doctor said the reactions were normal. Severe enough to require dozens of antibiotics, hospital trips, etc. After what happened to me, I had my doctors examine her records and they (medical doctors) agreed that she had reacted and her damage was permanent as well. I would rather have gotten Hep B (though the chance was less than nil) or her get chicken pox, measles, etc. Polio is about the only one I would be worried about. Like my doctor said, she had measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, pertussis as did most people her age and older and vast vast majority lived. I have heard of the occasional loss of hearing from mumps or sterility, but that was when VAST number of people got them. I can tell you I know a child paralyzed and blinded at age 4 by the chicken pox vaccine, I know twins autistic the day of their 3 yr shots, I know of another set of twin one autistic and one diabetic at age 3 immediately after shots, I know of a 16 yr old who had 1 dose of HPV vaccine last year and immediately had seizures, lost all her hair, and developed SEVERE digestive problems and lost 40 lbs, and actually know many more people personally with similar stories. Sorry for Shannon Peterson, but she may have had 6 years she would not had if her 3 month old had died after Hep B vaccine (like Michael Belkins’s daugther and hundreds more people like him). She will never know if she would have a child in a persistent vegetative state, like another friend, whose son had seizures after DPT at 6 months and continued having seizures and at age 18 is 45 lbs. Sometimes death is more humane when it occurs naturally…than the suffering and TORTURE many children suffer with that are MAMED by these shots. I have 1 vaccine-injured daughter and 1 NON vaccinated healthy son. I can’t in good conscience (with history of vaccine reaction in my husband to the pertussis vaccine, mine to the Hep B, and my daughter to Chx Pox as well as most of the others) vaccinate him. Sorry if you don’t like the decision…but I can live with it. I can’t BEAR to destroy my son’s life the way I did when I allowed the doctor to destroy my child’s immune system.

  15. Gary says:

    AnnPC, do you know what “selection bias” is?
    Also, what sort of vaccine reaction requites antibiotics as a treatment?

  16. AnnPC says:

    I wonder how many people feel that my children are acceptable losses to keep the herd immune??? A friend was told by a Texas legislator that her childen were “acceptable losses.” How are we to trust people who believe our children are acceptable losses when damaged or killed???

  17. Kat says:

    Kelly, you pose questions many are regarding Christian and Jewish beliefs these days in certain popular blogs and such.
    While it is true in all religions there are extremists who believe ‘sins’—>a charge of death, this is not the faulty belief held by many Christians, for one. And, to be fair and intelligent, it is not best to exploit the view of an extreme minority and project such overgeneralizations onto many.
    Susan, I can’t speak on your behalf but I am confident in speaking on behalf of many others who feel the same way as I do. Treating our immune system well and as it was intended for human bodies, eating fresh whole fruits and vegetables, drinking plenty of water, exercising, responding well to stress, and avoiding unnecessary chemical exposures, etc, are very logical and intelligent things to do. There is certainly nothing hokey about that… and it doesn’t take a ‘person of faith’ to recognize that eating garden veggies is better for your body than a processed, artifically veggie-flavored ‘energy’ bar.
    Does it guarantee a disease and illness free life? No. It just gives you a better ‘shot’.

  18. AnnPC says:

    Gary, I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology and have published in peer reviewed journals. Yes…I know what selection bias is.
    Ear infections, sinus infections, bronchitis, pneumonia, skin infections, croup, RSV, she had it all for 2 years constantly while getting vaccinated with the first 36 shots. Turns out, unvaccinated children as a group, have little to none. I don’t know ONE unvaccinated kid that has even had an ear infection, eczema, and the list goes on. My daughter developed severe eczema immediately after her 4 month shots. I have had pediatrician, family docs, and her immunologist confirm the trend based on review of her records. They are certain her immune damage was do to the combination of shots upon shots without allowing any recovery. I did the recommended schedule of 4-6 per visit.

  19. AnnPC says:

    Oh and she got pneumonia after one set of shots. I never had pneumonia til the Hep B series and started getting it often, have had it 4 times since 2006 when I was injured. Once I almost died and my doc said my immune system was so damaged any random virus could kill me. I was never sick at all, ever, before the Hep B series. All I am is sick all the time since (and I had kids so it’s not that I had kids exposed at school and brought it home in case that is what you were thinking).

  20. Kelly says:

    Ann, I an sorry for your misfortune and those around you. There is strong evidence that suggests vaccines did not cause any of the injuries you mentioned. You are really stuck though with your son. If the attenuated varicella virus in the vaccine damaged his sister and you fear he is genetically predisposed, then you definitely do not want him to get wild varicella. I guess you can only hope that those around you decide to vaccinate for chicken pox so your son can benefit from herd immunity. Good luck to you. I hope your son doesn’t get sick because someone else fell for anti-vax fear-mongering or would that just be karma?

  21. Kelly says:

    No Kat it doesn’t. Unvaxed individuals are more susceptible to the disease than their vaccinated peers.

  22. Kelly says:

    Ann, my two kids are fully vaccinated and had none of those illnesses. What’s your point?

  23. Kelly says:

    Considering you are just blaming vaccines for your illnesses and that many more children would suffer if we followed your unsupported delusions, then yeah, I think your children are acceptable losses. So have you stopped beating your kids, Anne?

  24. Kat says:

    Kelly, many oppose the view of herd mentality. Readers can easily seek and find the discussion in various other places online or off.
    Simple: Eat well. Think well. Exercise. Avoid unnecessary pollutants. Health research confirms this is good for us, but that almost sounds silly to state.
    Individuals have every opportunity to seek intelligent guidance in making a healthy life happen, if they should need.
    Best to you and yours.

  25. Kelly says:

    So Kat, will you be posting any of this health research that shows unvaccinated people get VPD less frequently than vaccinated people? The current health research says you are wrong, so I’m eager to see your evidence that shows otherwise.

  26. Cindy says:

    I’ve known many many people who disagree on the whole vaccine issue — but never have I read such a vicious reponse to a mom about her injured child.

  27. Cindy says:

    And whatever you may think about vaccines in general, when you go to the government’s own website and read the list of possible side effects for each vaccine, its an eye-opening experience — especially for those who’ve been told over and over that vaccines are perfectly safe. The govt acknowledges there are risks and has paid out over $2 Billion for vaccine injuries so far, but I guess if your child is not one of the injured, its “acceptable”.

  28. Gary says:

    “Gary, I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology and have published in peer reviewed journals. Yes…I know what selection bias is.”
    Good. Then why did you offer nothing but anecdotal evidence in your post.
    “Ear infections, sinus infections, bronchitis, pneumonia, skin infections, croup, RSV, she had it all for 2 years constantly while getting vaccinated with the first 36 shots. Turns out, unvaccinated children as a group, have little to none.”
    Nope. Not true. http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/article.asp?id=80869
    I like how you claim to know what selection bias is but continue to offer anecdotal evidence to support your assertions.

  29. Gary says:

    Cindy, that is only true for a certain value of “safe”. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you, but nothing in this world is perfectly safe. And I do mean nothing. Not breathing, not sleeping, not eating, absolutely nothing.
    See, the question about whether a choice is good or not, is not “Are there risks to this choice?” but “What are the risks of making this choice vs the risks of not making the choice?” You have to compare the relative risk levels. Is it better to hold my breath in order to avoid breathing in toxic fumes? Or might that cause me to suffocate?
    Similar risk vs benefit analyses have to be done for vaccinations. Some people have medical reasons why they cannot be vaccinated. For them the risks of the vaccines outweigh the benefits. For the vast majority of us, however, the risk is very small indeed. When you looked at the list of possible side effects, did you also look at the chance for having them? Did you notice that very few indeed are serious? AND that most people have no side effects whatsoever?
    Meanwhile, did you happen to look at the possible serious outcomes from an infection of some of the diseases that vaccines protect from? Perhaps you could look up the potential for death or life long disability from polio? Mumps? Measles? Even chicken pox?
    Remember, though. The raw chance of any one of these serious complications is not the only information you need. Neither is the abject scariness of them. You need to compare the possible adverse events due to the vaccine with the possible complications due to the diseases.
    If you look at both sides of the equation, the real eye opening experience is that people choose to refuse vaccines due simply to internet rumors and innuendos.

  30. Kat says:

    If only Gary was correct, perhaps there would be a swift way to correct the faulty thinking. The reality is there are many health professionals, allopathic included, that question the safety of our immunization program. Please, readers, do your reviews. Hear the stories of so many, many parents and listen to those numerous health professionals who question.
    And remember, it is believed at the least 1 in 88 military families are experiencing autism spectrum disorders. Why is this? Is it their large recommended vaccination schedule? We NEED to know. It should be on the menu of more researchers slated studies.

  31. Chris says:

    Kat:

    And remember, it is believed at the least 1 in 88 military families are experiencing autism spectrum disorders.

    Cite?

  32. Kat says:

    Among other places this statistic can be found, I first learned about it via a military officer. Below is from a personal conversation. Chris, I am confident you and others can verify for yourselves.
    “Yes, 1 in 88 active duty military kids, 1 in 67 kids if you factor in retired dependents. The statistics come from TRICARE and only reflect the kids who were seen through TRICARE three times in a 24-month period, using one of the autism diagnostic codes – meaning it’s not possible that everyone was accounted for that has an autism diagnosis.”
    Regarding National Guard and Reserves, “Unfortunately, there’s no way to track that statistic, as those dependents are not TRICARE eligible. We’re a Guard family, but we’re active duty. The numbers are staggering.”
    Yes, they are staggering… and no matter what research has or has not been done to date, we NEED to find out what is going on with our babies.

  33. Gary says:

    Lots of things are “believed”, Kat. That does not make them true.
    Assuming your right about vaccines causing autism, how do you explain the many studies which fail to measure any such association? When you look at vaccination timing among well matched groups there is simply no relationship between the diagnosis of autism and the timing of vaccinations. Either vaccines do not cause autism (at anything like measurable levels) or they do so in a way that has nothing to do with the number and or timing of the vaccinations.
    I agree that the increasing number of autistic diagnoses in the last few decades is disturbing. But is it really an increase in incidence? And if so, by how much?
    You might like to read this:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=95

  34. Kat says:

    Thank you for your link. Here is my link, also 2009, in response:
    Autism Increase Not Due to Better Diagnosis
    http://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/supported/sep/2009/autism.cfm
    Please note here how Michael L. Cuccaro, PhD, Associate Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Miami praises Irva Hertz-Picciotto, PhD, MPH of UC Davis for her study (described above) and agrees that more inquiry into environmental factors needs to be considered: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20090108/autism-cases-rise

  35. Gary says:

    From the abstract of your study:
    “Autism incidence in California shows no sign yet of plateauing. Younger ages at diagnosis, differential migration, changes in diagnostic criteria, and inclusion of milder cases do not fully explain the observed increases. Other artifacts have yet to be quantified, and as a result, the extent to which the continued rise represents a true increase in the occurrence of autism remains unclear.”
    “Wider awareness, greater motivation of parents to seek services as a result of expanding treatment options, and increased funding may each have contributed, but documentation or quantification of these effects is lacking. With no evidence of a leveling off, the possibility of a true increase in incidence deserves serious consideration.”
    So, the study actually said “unclear” and “deserves serious consideration”. This is pretty different from the way the article you linked to describes it.
    This is a more detailed discussion of that particular study:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=340#more-340
    “This latest study is interesting, but was too limited in scope to significantly alter the evidence as a whole. I would not be surprised if some small portion of the increase in autism diagnoses were due to environmental factors. But I don’t think current evidence lends much support to this notion either. The current state of evidence strongly suggests that the dominant reason for the increase in numbers is due to changes in diagnostic behavior.”
    Additionally,
    “Even if it were ultimately found that autism rates are truly rising, and that this rise was due to an environment factors – vaccines would still be a very poor candidate. There is already sufficient independent evidence against a significant link between vaccines and autism. If vaccines were causing a 5-6 fold increase in autism that would be a huge signal the studies to date would have picked up.”
    I find myself agreeing with Dr Novella. This study is interesting, but it really does not address fundamental parts of the question at hand.
    For instance, your study also says this about the possibility that autism is not increasing: “One approach to this question would be a rigorous investigation to
    determine incidence or prevalence in 20- to 30-year olds. If there has been no true increase and no individuals who were cured or outgrew their diagnosis, then the application to adults of criteria equivalent to those being used today in children should find, for each previously identified autism case, 4 to 8 undiagnosed cases.”
    One of the references in the link I provided in my previous comment is this study:
    Autism and diagnostic substitution: evidence from a study of adults with a history of developmental language disorder.
    “Most individuals with autism had been identified with pragmatic impairments in childhood. Some children who would nowadays be diagnosed unambiguously with autistic disorder had been diagnosed with developmental language disorder in the past. This finding has implications for our understanding of the epidemiology of autism.”
    It is a rather small study, and certainly not the ‘rigorous investigation’ called for. But it is maybe a taste.
    If you want to update the information, here are a couple of studies from 2010:
    Unpacking the complex nature of the autism epidemic
    “The etiology of autism spectrum disorders is unknown but there are claims of increasing prevalence in many countries. Despite more than a decade of epidemiological investigation, it is still unclear whether the rising trend in prevalence reflects a true increase or changes in diagnostic trends and improvements in case ascertainment. ”
    This one looks at California alone:
    Socioeconomic Status and the Increased Prevalence of Autism in California
    “While individual-level factors, such as birth weight and parental education, have had a fairly constant effect on likelihood of diagnosis over time, we find that community-level resources drive increased prevalence. This study suggests that neighborhoods dynamically interact with the people living in them in different ways at different times to shape health outcomes.”
    “The most likely explanation is that the rapid upswing of measured autism prevalence was driven by diagnostic dynamics and knowledge diffusion in wealthy and highly educated communities. Over time, these community effects spilled over into less affluent areas. This finding, combined with the importance of community
    resources for rising autism prevalence, provides a framework for understanding the
    autism epidemic as constituted, in significant part, as an ‘‘epidemic of discovery’’”
    In other words greater awareness and greater willingness to accept a diagnosis of ASD lead to a much greater increase in such diagnoses.

  36. Steve Michaels says:

    Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds Gary? What Susan is getting at above, if you wish to look at the religious view, (and this is for Kelly as well) is that naturally occurring God given food sources are in keeping with faith in God. What you are trying to say is that if you believe in God you shouldn’t eat or drink anything because God will provide. That is utter nonsense.

  37. Steve Michaels says:

    There you go Kelly. There have been numerous people on this blog and others who cite anecdotal evidence of damage. All you can do is give a gratuitous ‘sorry’ and go on to say that it just CAN’T be vaccines. When do anecdotes constitute patterns? NEVER in your eyes. It didn’t take much for Australian, Finnish and Swedish authorities to determine that certain vaccines do more harm than good and pulled them. You really do like cocooning yourself in the Ivory Tower and ignore what is happening all around you.

  38. Steve Michaels says:

    Kelly :
    So Kat, will you be posting any of this health research that shows unvaccinated people get VPD less frequently than vaccinated people? The current health research says you are wrong, so I’m eager to see your evidence that shows otherwise.

    Why do you limit the study Kelly? I know why. There are really two reasons. You want to talk about VPD, everyone else is referring (explicitly or not) to overall health outcomes. The plague of chronic diseases in children that has increased with every addition to the recommended vaccine schedule shows that while VPD’s may be declining, overall health outcomes are declining with even more severe diseases than the VPD’s being eliminated. Is there a study to confirm this? Not really because we are told that it would be unethical to study the question. It really is quite simple, children who have been opted out of vaccines can have their overall health outcomes tracked. Autism, diabetes, eczema, cancer, GI problems, even death rates from ‘other than accident’. They are traceable by their opt out waivers. Compare otherwise demographically similar children with similar parameters over 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 year periods. Hold on… that study hasn’t been done! So how can you make ANY claim. Closest we come is to the Amish. They are substantially healthier than the rest of the population. This could be due to lower vaccination rates or better eating as they don’t eat processed food. But again, the study hasn’t been done. So ALL of your claims are specious at best.

  39. Steve Michaels says:

    It’s all about asking the right or wrong questions. Studies can be framed to provide a desired result AND sometimes the actual results and conclusions drawn in the abstract don’t bear any resemblance to each other, as with the PLoS study cited above.

  40. Gary says:

    Perhaps, Steve, but that is a very vague and not well documented opinion. Also, the studies in question were asking the right question. Namely does the timing or amount of vaccination effect the timing or amount of autism diagnoses in a given population. There are other ways to phrase it, but when the goal is to get attempt to measure the effect that vaccines might be having on autism rates, it is a perfectly valid phrasing.
    Speaking of which, you did not answer the question. How do you explain the plethora of studies which do not measure any such effect? Are you saying that they all cheated?

  41. Gary says:

    “The plague of chronic diseases in children that has increased with every addition to the recommended vaccine schedule shows that while VPD’s may be declining, overall health outcomes are declining with even more severe diseases than the VPD’s being eliminated”
    You didn’t read far enough in the comment above. There is a study and it repudiates this claim.
    Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents: Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS)
    http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/article.asp?id=80869
    “Conclusion: The prevalence of allergic diseases and non-specific infections in children and adolescents was not found to depend on vaccination status. “

  42. Gary says:

    Not at all. What I am saying is that god also gave us the mental wherewithal to study and understand much of his great creation. One Part of that understanding is then nature of infectious diseases. How they work, what they are, and how the body can fight them. Just as exercising the right way, or eating the right foods (informed by a scientific understanding of “right”) is almost always better than blind faith, vaccination is almost always better than the alternatives when it comes to preventing certain diseases.
    Oh, and she specifically mentioned homeopathy and supplements, not just god given food.

  43. E's Mom says:

    Wow Kelly. A whole new low. You are definitely a wolf in sheeps clothing and I have lost all respect for you and your cause that managed to gain through our previous discourse.
    And your children are acceptable losses to me.

  44. Kelly says:

    E’s mom, there is a very big difference between you and Anne. Your case was attributed to the vaccine, while Anne just believes that the vaccines caused those illnesses when the science shows they do not. Anne also dismissed Abgail’s death due to a VPD. You did not. You recognize the dilemma you face and how your daughter’s vaccine reaction makes you believe the vaccines are more dangerous than they are. You acknowledge that your opinion about vaccines is emotionally based.
    Anne on the other hand, says she is a clinical psychologist that is aware of confirmation bias. She knows her anecdotal stories are crap and she is using the fear that Christine mentions in her blog post to promote an anti-vaccine agenda. She is falsely assuming that the vaccines caused the injuries when she asks how many people believe her kids are acceptable losses. This logical fallacy is often illustrated with the story of a lawyer asking the defendant on the stand “have you stopped beating your wife”, when the guy never beat his wife. If the guy answers “yes” that would falsely confirm that the guy beat his wife. If the guy answers “no” that would imply that he is still beating his wife when in reality he never beat her.
    This is what Anne is doing. If I answer “no” to her question, that would imply validity to her claims of vaccine injury when in reality there is no validity. If I answer “yes”, then I’m some horrible monster that doesn’t care about children. Seems like you, Steve, Kat and Cindy fell for. My disgust of Anne is that she is emotionally manipulating you to promote her agenda and given her academic background she is doing this intentionally knowing full-well that her position is a logical fallacy. She is purposefully lying and manipulating you to the possible detriment of your child’s health. That greatly bothers me as I support informed consent and she is trying to misinform.

  45. Nate says:

    Vaccines have caused autism in 3 people I know directly. They know it, I know it, the doctors know it too. The first is my cousin, she was in the us army and received so many vaccines she had to be in bed a few days. She had 2 kids while in the army and was given shots during prego, both are autistic. The other is a fella I have worked with for years. Both his kids were healthy until 18m vaccines, both developed the exact same sickness and never fully recovered and are now full autistic. The other person had a child which was fine until they went to public school at age 6 and was forced to get all the missing vaccines in a short time period. Little girl is now fully autistic. I have 8 kids, the first few are fully vaccinated, the rest none. The unvaccinated kids are stronger, healthier and have much higher energy levels and IQ. The vaccinated ones get sick easier and are not nearly as quick in their thinking. You can site as many white coats and corporate funded studies as you like, but in the real world your studies are just lies and bullshit.

  46. Nancy Taylor-Babcock says:

    All I can say is do some research on vaccines – and you will see that they have prevented NOTHING. If you put what was in a vaccine into a glass and handed it to a child to drink, you would be arrested for poisoning. How is it OK to give the same amount of serum into a 6 pound baby as a 180 pound man? Think about it folks. It makes no sense.

  47. Erika says:

    Um… Not NATURALLY, Snoozie.

  48. Steve Michaels says:

    I can see that you don’t read the studies you cite Gary. This study does not in any way address what I was saying. It is a study of vaccination efficacy, not overall health outcomes. Either you don’t understand the difference or you don’t understand the study. It was conducted from 2003 to 2006 with results published in 2011. Where is the 10 year OVERALL health outcome? It’s not there. It CAN’T be there because the study hasn’t included that time frame. It also does not look at other potential adverse health outcomes from the vaccines themselves. For example, GBS, auto-immune issues, cancers or other longer term outcomes.

  49. gina says:

    Talk about fear mongering. Every parent should be given appropriate information to educate them on what they inject or feed to their children. Telling a scary story about a child dying, that isn’t considered fear mongering. Get it right will ya.

  50. Steve Michaels says:

    Actually Kelly, I have not ‘fallen’ for anything. You are the opposite extreme of what you accuse others of in this case. You won’t be ‘taken in’ by anybody relating a potential vaccine injury. If they believe it and it is not yet proven, then it MUST be an irresponsible parent looking for a scapegoat. Right? That is certainly how you come across. Bottom line is that most research takes your view. If a VPD declines, vaccines work, if other problems arise, then only if there is absolutely no other possible explanation then maybe there might be some sort of relationship between the problem and the vaccine, but its probably just coincidence. In the meanwhile, we just be abusive towards anyone who makes the claim…. In short, I find you despicable and subhuman because of your complete inability to empathize with other people’s position or situation.

  51. Toby Dawson says:

    Vaccines are a 100 year old mistake and FDA/CDC know this, but they represent the pharmaceutical giants who have billions invested in that mistake and make billions from continuing to poison and kill innocents; take a brief look at, say, the Amish Community who do not vaccinate and do not have Autism – PERIOD. http://gdsajj.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/no-autism-in-unvaccinated-amish-community-except-those-adopted/
    Then come back and have another think before you buy the lies of the Pharmafia reps.

  52. Charmaine says:

    Not surprised that the MN event only included one mom who lost her child because she did not vaccinate. Let’s hear from the many parents who lost their children because they did vaccinate. Doubt that will happen in this group.

  53. Benoît says:

    HI, i suggest to read about Jean-Jacques Crèvecoeur or others persons as doctor explaining the bad effects of vaccination. In realty, when the good things are in place, there is no need to vaccinate. And the big problem with vaccination is that behind this there is pharmaceuticals cies wanting only one thing: make profits. Example: the AH1N1 pseudo pandemic is only to make money first and an second point it was for trying to introduce the RFID chip in the body of people to control after. There is a big program from New World Order and more we seek about information from this more we can understand the global bad approach.

  54. All I can say is my heart goes out to those parents who have lost their child from illness. I know that my son now has a life threatening autoimmune disorder that he developed from my choice to vaccinate him. Everyone will have their own opinion on what is the right thing to do and want to push their opinions on others. I have to live with the choice I made every day. When he can’t walk because his illness has flared and his joints have seized or when he can’t eat because all his organs are swollen from his body attacking itself thinking everything that is healthy is not. When he has a rash from head to toe and cried because kids are afraid to play with him…I know it was my fault because I made a decision uninformed. When I remember him at 6 years old trying to drown himself in the bath tub because he could no longer cope with the chronic illness and the painful medications, I want to share my story. I don’t want to push my view of not vaccinating on other, I just don’t want people to have this kind of heart break because as a mother you never forgive yourself for what your child goes through when they suffer because of a decision you made.

  55. Angie says:

    I would like to say giving your child shots is a choice you have to make, no one can make it for you. I didn’t know anything bad about the shots my sons dr said he needed them so my son got 8 shots in one day when he was one. Now my son has autism, within weeks my son was gone, no eye contact, he stopped eating any real foods and he has never said a word. He is 9 years old now and still has never said a word, I fight everyday to get my son back. I deal with daily screaming and cleaning up poop off the floors and walls cause my son still is not potty trained. If I had known about what was in these shots I would not have let them give them to my son, because I lost my son and I have to fight every single day to get him back and I know those shots are what caused this, no doubt in my mind cause my son was normal, talking, eating, everything a normal child should do at one and then shots and he has been gone ever since. I will not let my son have anymore shots now and thats my decision to make for my son , some people may not agree but you don’t live my life, you don’t watch my son scream in pain daily and hit himself and others and try and guess about whats wrong with him and pray that I am right. I don’t know if this happened for a reason or if this was God’s plan, personnaly I think its a messed up plan and I only hope that before I die I hear my child talk, it is my only dream for him to talk and have a normal life and normal friends and because of shots that the crappy government wants our kids to take my son was destroyed by those shots. Every 1 in 90 child now has autism, and yet its not an epedimic to anyone something is causing all of this and I believe that those shots are the cause and I hope someone does something about it or its gonna be every 1 in 10 child with autism and this world is going to be a hard place for parents and children to live in and its so sad that so many lives will be destroyed all because of these shots that are supposed to be so good for your child where is the good cause I sure in the hell havent seen any good.

  56. dugmaze says:

    Why did all of our founding fathers live well into their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s?

  57. Steve Selpal says:

    Asperger’s Syndrome is my birth defect and I am a survivor, being 60 years old. I don’t think vaccines in the early 1950s contained thimerol preservatives. The preservative contains mercury. This has been a debate for years, whether the thimerol has caused autism in normal born infants. The allegation says that the mercury actually changes the X chromosome so that the baby becomes autistic as though the child was born with autism. “Big Pharma” and FDA denies it. Acquiring single dosage vaccines without thimerol is possible in some cases but can be too overpriced, too. I hope more study can conclude this debate. This would cause a huge class action suit which would affect the entire health industry and would require government interventions and control.

  58. Angela says:

    Don’t worry folks, as the numbers of vaccine damage carry on increasing (even though pharma covers it up while sleeping with the media), more families are waking up… unfortunately the hard way.
    Oh and not everyone who chain smokes gets lung cancer but a lot does…

  59. Kat says:

    Steve, right, we should always take into account case studies and findings.
    If it wasn’t for human experience and our ability to reflect upon it, we would not have developed research/the scientific method in the first place.

  60. Jim O'Kelly says:

    Lets leave God out of the vaccine question. These poisons are made by man/woman. Most pro-vaccine people BELIEVE three things which have been promoted in 4th grade science books to news accounts on an almost daily basis. These three statements are, 1. Smallpox was eliminated by Jenner. 2. Polio was eliminated by Salk. 3. Vaccines prevent disease. There is plenty of evidence and proof that the first two are lies. The problem is that the liars are not quoting the history of small pox as the books of that time period clearly show that smallpox pus scarification was a cause of smallpox,leprosy,syphilis,infantile paralysis, and many other diseases. Most of you, pro and anti have not had acess to this information. It was revealed by anti vax doctors of that time and admitted by the pro-vax doctors. Sorry but you have been miseducated by the vaccine makers. Polio was a very rare disease. Actually polio and infantile paralysis were not the same disease. Infantile paralysis was a disease that affected children between the ages of six months and five years of age. Polio was just a set of symptoms like a cold. One of the mis-leading figures used is the number of paralyzed in 1952. They cite a little over 52.000. This was the combined number. The actual number paralyzed was a little over 21.000 cases. There were a litle over 160 million people, you can do the math to get a realistic per-cent. There was a lot more to the polio lie than is told. This was exposed by several prominent medical doctors in chicago and elsewhere. The program was actually stopped because of what I call the great salk vaccine polio massacre, where 200 kids were paralyized and 10 died. The lie told by Dr. Paul offit and others is that this was because of a bad batch of vaccine made by the Cutter company. The truth is that Ely lilly had almost as many cases as Cutter and all companys had some. However Cutter was the only company independant of the Rockefeller empire. You need to think about this nonsense of herd immunity. Dr. Offit, in order to confuse you says that not everyone will be protected that is vaccinated. Then he says that if enough are vaccinated that the minority of non-vaxinated will be protected. So he is saying that the non-vaccinated will be protected by the vaccinated who may not be protected. Think about that. Not to mention that when they called the program off, and the government and the scientist met behind closed doors in secret, they changed the entire formula for the Salk vaccine. This new poison was not even tested. And they started vaxing again, even though millions of parents change their mind about vaxing their kids and many states stopped the program. Not to mention that when the vaxing started, poliomylitis cases started coming down and meningitis cases started going up. They just reported the cases as meningitis instead of poliomylitis. Folks those of you who are looking for the truth need to do some serious research. You can’t depend on your doctor as he/she was also mis-educated on this subject. Think about this. Your doctor vaccinates him/herself with the polio vaccine. Three months later he/she does not develop polio. Your doctor than says that the reason he didn’t get polio was because of the vaccine. Does that make sense to you? Well that is exactly what they did in the field trial of 1954. There is far to much to the mis-education about vaccines for me to get into it here. But just for the record, I was one of 40 million kids in 1954 that never got the Salk jab, and never got polio. A good book from the 1800s(which are available) in vaclib.com will tell you just how people lived in absolute filth which was the real cause of smalpox and other diseases as well as contaminated water, mal-nutrition, starvation, dung hills piled outside their door,etc. There is a lot more to this vaccination stuff than most of you know. I leave you with this thought, investigate before you vaccinate. You have heard the pro-side, listen to the other side, then make your own mind up, as you will have to live with it for the rest of your life. As for personal stories by parents not being scientific,(anecdote)you will find that if you read the actual medical books,(old and new) they are loaded with anecdotes. By the way as you all know vaccination is based on viruses, dead and alive. The problem is that there does not exist such a thing as a live virus. You can prove this to yourself with two scientific facts. All virus pictures are seen under an electron microscope. All material has to be cut and dehydrated before it is placed under that kind of power. Check it out for yourself. The crippling polio virus was magnified 100.000 times. And says the picture was taken by the electron scope.You also need to ask yourself, what is the source of the material that the pictures(specks/pelletsP of virus are taken from. You will be digusted and surprised. Please before firing your gun(unless you are a shill) reread and think about what I said. I had to lear the hard way back in the 1960s with my child, I hope you do not. By the way, did you ever stop to think that all these children that died of ” vaccine preventable diseases” were being treated by the allopathic professions? They were being given poisionous drugs that overloaded their already weak and sick body, which is probably the real reason they died. Its called Iatrogenics. Here is my anecdote. I haven’t been to a doctor or taken a drug in 46 years and I am 69 years old. Of course you can discount this personal experience like my friends have(most are dead) and the others are half dead, who just say or said,”you are just lucky. Never mind that I eat the right foods(mostly)exercise on a regular basis, think positive( try to ) take in natural vitamin D and breath fresh air, if you can find any. So if your not a shill and honestly BELIEVE the medical profession and looking for the truth, its out there. When you read it, your common sense will let you know. Trust your instinct. I have in the past 40 years talked to many moms who said,vaccinating my baby didn’t make sense, but I did it because the doctor told me it was safe and would prevent disease. Some of them including myself, learned the hardway. I sincerely hope that you do not.

  61. Lisa says:

    Shooting directly into the blood a soup of live and dead pathogens, heavy metals, and mutated proteins is just not logical. Good luck to you moms who want to blog about vaccinating. It’s your choice.

  62. Lisa says:

    Great comment. Thank you.

  63. Lisa says:

    My heart goes out to you. God Bless. Have you been to any DAN doctors?

  64. Snoozie says:

    Nate, While I do not like casting doubt on people’s personal stories, yours seems unbelievable. If there were such a clear causal connection between vaccines and autism, it seems that many, many more children would be autistic. While autism rates are very high, at the rate of your personal anecdote, the majority of children would be autistic.
    Some of what you say sounds correct. I do believe that your co-worker’s children began showing signs of autism as this is when many signs of autism are detected. However, I sincerely doubt the vaccines had anything to do with it, and those children would have been autistic even if they had never been vaccinated. I am most sorry that your co-worker blames himself for the autism. He did not do anything to give his children autism, including taking them in for immunizations.
    As for the studies cited, the studies are at least a dispassionate look at evidence. Anecdotes can be heart-rending, but they often skew reality, and compiling anecdotes does not lead to good science. The sheer number of researchers involved internationally from academic, governmental, and pharmaceutical organizations would make any sort of conspiracy or cover-up impossible. The studies can be seen as valid because they are replicated by researchers without connections to each other.
    We often ask the anti-vaccine side to provide proof to us that vaccines cause autism or are unsafe. I have yet to have a single anti-vaxxer do so. Until that side produces adequate proof, I will continue to protect my children from death, hospitalization, and illnesses from polio, measles, pneumonia, and the 11 other VPDs vaccines prevent.

  65. Snoozie says:

    Vaccines are administered into the muscle, not the blood stream.

  66. Elizabeth Bento says:

    I spent over 400 hours of reading books, looking at package inserts that come with the vaccines, deciphering what all those side effects were, making cheat sheets to remember them, looking on VAERS for certain vaccines and the CDC website for information when I decided against any vaccine for my child. The list of cons outweighed the pros dramatically. I made an informed decision that every parent should be able to make for their child. I am a college educated, mother who made an informed decision. This is not negligence. I cannot ‘risk’ the harm of poisoning my child by over vaccinating them. Not on my watch.

  67. Gary says:

    Right. Fear mongering usually means hyping a low risk over a higher risk. Claiming that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases the prevent is just such a misuse of information. I agree that fear mongering is a loathsome practice. But it is the anti vaccination advocates who are guilty of it.

  68. Gary says:

    Wow, you guys really came out of the wood work today. No, Toby, the Amish do indeed vaccinate, and they do have autism. They have autism amongst those who vaccinate AND they have autism amongst those who do not vaccinate. See, the fact is that autism is simply not related to vaccination rates or schedule in any measurable way.
    http://autism.about.com/b/2008/04/23/do-the-amish-vaccinate-indeed-they-do-and-their-autism-rates-may-be-lower.htm
    http://www.pedneur.com/article/S0887-8994%2808%2900541-9/abstract

  69. LJ Goes says:

    I am utterly saddened by these posts. Vaccines do help some. They also irrevocably harm others. My son, like Ann, suffers guillian barre which is made intolerable by his severe aluminum toxicity. The truth is, if we could both step back for a moment, we would realize both sides hold that the core of their belief is helping children. Science performed in international arenas, by communities not behold to the US vax system are discovering and have (and long ago documented) the severe neurological damage caused by vaccines. There would be NO VACCINE COURT if this was not the case. Articles such as this, fear mongering, terrify both sides. The truth lies in reform. In fixing a broken system that misinforms doctors and patients. I implore you good doctors out there, do you not want to take back your precious science? Do you want to do what you went to medical school for? Remember what life was like before your offices were overrun with drug reps? I implore the rational on both sides to put down their swords and invoke LOGIC. Also, show the amount of empathy appropriate on both sides. I have witnessed the death of a child due to hep b. My mothers best friend is crippled from polio. I know both sides. Reason and the ability to put our emotions aside will fix the system for ALL OF US.

  70. Lisa says:

    that’s bad enough, you know where it ends up, in the DNA. Most pathogens are air borne and killed in the immune system of the gut. Once injected in the muscle, these poisons just go to town.

  71. Lisa says:

    If people want to take something, they should try homeopathy.

  72. Snoozie says:

    How to pathogens make it to the gut when inhaled? Wouldn’t they land in the lungs? And how do muscle incorporate “poisons” into ones DNA? (And just to be clear, which “poisons”?) I am not at all certain you understand human physiology.

  73. Snoozie says:

    Magical water and sugar pills will not prevent any disease, nor will they cure (or even comfort). Homeopathy is a scam, and anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something. If parents want to prevent their children from dying from diseases like measles, pertussis, polio, diphtheria, and the like, they absolutely must vaccinate. If you continue to spout your unscientific misinformation, you will end up responsible for the deaths of children.

  74. Angie says:

    We have been to alot of different doctors we even paid 10,000 dollars to go see a dr in Texas and he diagnosed my son with colitis and acid reflux, he was the only one willing to help him even though it costs alot of money it was worth it to help him and now he is on a gluten and casein free diet which has helped him in so many wasys, I used to have to drive him around till 4 in the morning or longer to keep him out of pain it was the only thing that worked and now with the diet he goes to sleep at night in a bed I am so grateful for that and it has helped in other ways but the main way is his belly its not 100% yet but its bette now , it is very expensive though, it costs me a lot of money a month for his food sometimes I just eat peanut butte and jelly cause its cheap and his food comes first. Its a trial every single day but I know I would give my life for my son he is my everything and we have our own organization to hopefully help other partents who go through the same thing as me. Right now we are having a poker run to raise money for the school and kids to get IPads, these things are miracles but I can’t afford one and it would give my son a voice so pray for us that we raise enough money for all these kids to get one and help them and the parents , these kids deserve a voice like any other child and thank you very much for being so nice, its nice to meet you.

  75. Snoozie says:

    With the level of vitriol the anti-vaccine movement levels at those who try to protect children’s health by promoting immunizations, is it any wonder that more parents do not step forward? The comments from the anti-vaccine side today have been callous toward this mother’s loss. Had her child been vaccinated, she would be alive.
    Does the anti-vaccination movement want to go back to 13,000 cases/year of paralytic polio, 2.7 million deaths/year from measles, 600 deaths per year from Hib, 9,000 deaths/year from pertussis, 150 deaths/year from chicken pox, and 15,000 deaths/year from diphtheria?
    When children do not get vaccinate, children die.

  76. kimsense says:

    My son has a documented vaccine-injury. So does my sister. So what if my story is anecdotal, so is Shannon Peterson’s. And I know hundreds of families with vaccine-injured kids through my work. I do not know any family of a child who died from a vaccine-preventable disease. Does that make either scenario better? NO. But you can’t pretend vaccines do not harm and that the risk is higher for a VPD than vaccine-injury. You just can’t.

  77. Angie says:

    I would also like to say that my son was tested for everything. We had our DNA tested along with his, they did alot of chromosome testing and all kinds of different things to try to figure out what caused my son to have autism and then a few years ago I had him tested for mercury and it was positive, he was loaded with mercury and had been there for years, which was the time when he got 8 vaccines at a time, its sad that so many people argue over this stuff. Maybe some people are fine when they get the vaccines but something is going on and everyone has to admit that I mean all these kids suddenly getting autism but its not the vaccines so what the hell is it? For me its the vaccines for someone else it may be something different i just know something should be done and investigated cause something is causing autism and it gets worse every single day, I just hope that we stop wasting time and money and start helping these kids cause in the end it doesn’t matter what caused it , it matters to help these children now so they can have some sort of life when they get older and they don’t end up in group homes cause my son will never go in one as long as I have a breath in my body.

  78. Diana says:

    Nobody will give me back my child! Reason: I was uneducated and pro vaccines. My other children will never ever get one more vaccine, I will not risk my other children.

  79. Chemist Janine says:

    I am seeing ignorance a plenty from the provaxers. I myself am an antivaxer, There is no safety studies done on these so how can we say the absence of evidence is good? more like the absence of evidence says there is something missing. Taking oral drugs etc take 10 years to go through a full drug screening and fail (in the development stage) why on earth are jabs tried on people then in the lab are deemed to be lethal. To me as a chemist, if a substance is toxic IT IS TOXIC, they don’t piss about with compounds. Yet in “medicine” they inject these toxic compounds and scientisrt KNOW they are toxic and people are expected to lap it up.
    P.S. a child can’t even have an immune system to eliminate this stuff when they start the jab schedule? still think it is safe?
    I don’t! Wake up and smell the coffee, ASDs are showing us all the toxins being used on us, our blood being the most silent as well as the crap in food, air, toiletries etc. I have been vaccine damaged myself!
    To all the families who have seen jab damage 1st hand, my thoughts are with you, we NEED to get of this toxic substances.

  80. Dee says:

    I do not apologize for refusing to inject aluminum, mercury and other inferior materials into my child’s body. If I decided to inject these things into my child at home, I’d be cited for child abuse. Instead, I do my best in feeding my child whole foods, limiting exposure to harmful chemicals and keeping his immune system at the place. Vaccination does NOT equal immunization. I as a child was incredibly unhealthy and vaccinated for everything under the sun. My husband and I did fall ill from diseases we were vaccinated fore. I have ceased such practices in the past 6 years, and my husband and I have adopted a more natural way of living and shrug off much of western medicine’s recommendations. Our family is enjoying health more than ever. We cannot become un-human. We will always be vulnerable to disease on earth, whether it be natural diseases or those created by these unGodly formulations our society is so convinced is our savior. Vaccinations and vaccination propaganda are complete arrogance, we cannot reconcile plastic to flesh. As a former pro-vaccination individual, I have done more research on my own and have switched paths. I am a very informed parent with my head out of the sand. I DO NOT apologize for myself or anyone else who in your eyes ‘risks’ our children’s lives. I can guarantee anyone who is willing to look at the broader picture beyond the scope of western medicine and ‘science’ (which is completely subjective with the presence of a drive for profit and control) will develop a much different opinion.

  81. Crotchfruit1 says:

    Bingo!

  82. Dee says:

    Goodness, I apologize for the typos. Should have read before posting!

  83. Diana says:

    Snoozie :
    If you continue to spout your unscientific misinformation, you will end up responsible for the deaths of children.

    Actually I can say the same to you. Show me 1 study that proves safety and efficacy.

  84. Dee says:

    People should be living longer than that.

  85. Laura says:

    First of all, each person who suffers EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES from a vaccine induced injury would not be happy that you (Kelly specifically) think the evidence of their every day existence is “anecdotal” when there is a considerable amount of evidence to support that vaccines are not completely safe. In fact the Supreme Court itself recently ruled that people could not sue for vaccine injury on the state level because vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe”. This is true. Vaccine side effects as expressed by the manufacturer show that some people will contract the disease they are getting vaccinated for. These are people that very likely would not have ever gotten this disease. If you take the word of the manufacturer as fact then the evidence is completely available. Most vaccines also show seizures as a side effect. Seizures can range from grand mal to subtle absence seizures, virtually undetected but doing a fair share of damage. Diseases produce white blood cells to form (which is accentuated by vaccines as a part of the process to kill the disease injected faster) However, the side effect of that is too many white blood cells which are twice as large as red blood cells. Red blood cells carry the oxygen to all your organs and proper oxygen levels in these organs is what prevents damage. When there are too many white blood cells – no matter what the time frame is – oxygen delivering red blood cells are jammed or blocked off – especially from the millions of micro-capillaries that feed much of your organs. These can only allow sometimes one red blood cell at a time through and are so small that we are only beginning to see them. Medical science (specifically in Japan currently) is just coming to the point where these things can be viewed and know that these vessels can show us who is at risk for all kinds of disorders, including diabetes, because of the importance of circulation in the body at this level. If your organs are not getting the oxygen they need it will lead to disease. Chronic inflammation is a common problem now. Another fact which can be easily found. Obviously, chronic buildup of too many white blood cells causes organ damage and even death. If the blood vessels in the brain are blocked from oxygen many things can happen, including a loss of automatic breathing – as we saw in cases of polio and as we see in cases of SIDS. My point is, the science shows that the body does this every time a disease enters to body and the body will, naturally, decided how much is needed to kill the intruder. When you use a vaccine there are TOO MANY for the disease in question. Too many over and over and over and this causes the body to start thinking that is normal. The body begins to over react to ALL foreign invaders which causes immune system problems (more easily substantiated info for you Kelly) Immune system issues caused by an over reaction of the system include diseases like asthma, alopecia, MS, costochondritis, RA, scleroderma, eczema and more (find definitions and causes of these diseases anywhere) The amount of people who suffer from these diseases is extensive and although they can be caused by sicknesses outside of vaccination, vaccination by it’s very nature would precipitate and in many cases cause these malfunctions of the immune system. This is known and well documented.
    Gardasil has caused far more documented deaths than pneumococcal disease. (not to mention people do not die of HPV and cervical cancer from HPV is rare and highly preventable with regular paps) Yet we want people to vaccinate against a disease that causes less deaths than some of the vaccines themselves (I use that one because we KNOW for sure it causes death – the others we are unsure off because we give so many at once – who knows what does what) Just as many possibly vaccine side effects are considered not because of anecdotal evidence – why can’t side effects be considered for the same type of evidence. Do we really know if these diseases would still be surging? No, because history has shown us that diseases come and go. Bubonic plague is still around with a few cases each year yet we don’t vaccinate for it and never have. Yes, Bubonic plague in the USA. All this information is easy to find.
    What must be understood is it isn’t MY duty to vaccinate myself or children. I am free. I have a brain which I want to protect. I am intelligent enough – my IQ is extremely high as 2 separate IQ tests have shown. I am able to look at information and decide FOR MYSELF if I want to vaccinate or not. I do not make the choice out of fear. Fear is what drives people TO VACCINATE. They fear getting sick and fear death. Fear the immediate – and short lived – impact from what being sick with these “preventable” diseases would cause. Out of fear they fail to consider the long term effect of the alternative – being vaccinated. The long term of vaccines has NEVER been STUDIED OR CONSIDERED! NEVER. At least not by people like Kelly and others who are cheerleading something they have no concept or understanding of.
    Need to wrap up this book I am writing here. At the end of the day it is your choice and should ALWAYS remain that. Everyone dies – sorry. No shot will cheat death and if a person wants to not force themselves to be injected with dozens of diseases they have virtually no chance of ever having I think that is just fine. All you people that want all those diseases in your body: Go for it but please stay at home while viral shedding – PROBABLY THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF ALL VIRUS OUTBREAKS IN THE USA! And if you don’t know what that is then shame on you! You’re the problem. (I could go on forever…. stopping now) EDUCATE BEFORE YOU VACCINATE – THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE AND IT IS MOSTLY COMMON SENSE! Get some!
    One more thing – shame on you for saying that those who do not vaccinate don’t understand what it means to loose someone from a preventable disease! You don’t know their story or mine. You don’t know who we have lost or what we have seen. When I see my friend’s child, vibrant and intelligent turn into a vegetable overnight after getting a vaccine – that is PROOF. Living breathing proof. When I see another friend die from bacterial meningitis it is sad, too. But I think it reasonable to accept the deaths instead of accepting a million children with autism.
    We can only make better choices and do what we can. Nothing is black and white or perfect. So make YOUR choice. But not mine. I do not want my children sick. But I don’t want them to lead a life of suffering either.

  86. Crotchfruit1 says:

    As a chemist myself, I have trouble taking your statements seriously. They reek of bullshit. Having fun eating all that methanol you consume every time you munch on a piece of fruit? Alcohol dehydrogenase converts it into formaldehyde, a neurotoxin. Luckily, the concentrations of these “toxins” are so minute that they are unable to negatively affect an individual, and such is the case with vaccines. What sort of a chemist are you, though? I’m curious now.

  87. Crotchfruit1 says:

    Sure, they could try homeopathy. Or, they could try something that actually fucking works.

  88. Nate says:

    If proof fell right on your head you would find a well worded way not to acknowledge it. If you said your lies to these peoples faces while they are with their kids and they could tell you to your face and you would see with your eyes and hear with your ears and yet you would still not believe.
    That is the impression you are giving. Almost religiously faithful to the idea you have, and yet you provide no evidence, just more smoke screens full of lies. Even if you don’t know its a lie it is still a lie you are propagating.
    Amish folks have far better health rates, no cases of your supposed ravenous diseases and yet are all vaccine free. You are a zealot for something you obviously do not have real world experience with. In the small confines of a laboratory, anything can be made to appear beneficial. Out here in the real world, the people are being damaged for life and yet you can see it?? Shame on you.

  89. Lisa says:

    @Snoozie: Homeopathy has a very similar theory to vaccination yet you discount it. LOL!

  90. Snoozie says:

    Just one? All right.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6325909
    Live attenuated varicella virus vaccine. Efficacy trial in healthy children.
    “We conducted a double-blind, placebo-controlled efficacy trial of the live attenuated Oka/Merck varicella vaccine among 956 children between the ages of 1 and 14 years, with a negative clinical history of varicella. Of the 914 children who were serologically confirmed to be susceptible to varicella, 468 received vaccine and 446 received placebo. The vaccine produced few clinical reactions and was well tolerated. There was no clinical evidence of viral spread from vaccinated children to sibling controls. Approximately eight weeks after vaccination, 94 per cent of the initially seronegative children who received vaccine had detectable antibody to varicella. During the nine-month surveillance period, 39 clinically diagnosed cases of varicella, 38 of which were confirmed by laboratory tests, occurred among study participants. All 39 cases occurred in placebo recipients; no child who received vaccine contracted varicella. The vaccine was 100 per cent efficacious in preventing varicella in this population of healthy children.”
    I have more if you’d like.

  91. Lisa says:

    Love your comment! Good for you!

  92. Snoozie says:

    Vaccines do not violate Avagadro’s number. Nor are they “energy medicine.” And they contain actual active ingredients.

  93. Crotchfruit1 says:

    No it doesn’t you fuckwit. Jesus Christ.

  94. Lisa says:

    Whoa with the accusation of BS! Digesting an apple with pesticides is never good, but the digestive tract tries to prevent toxins from entering the body. Shooting toxins right into muscle and blood is a sneak attack the body can’t fight.

  95. Crotchfruit1 says:

    That was directed at Lisa, Snoozie.

  96. Diana says:

    I asked for safety and efficacy, not just efficacy.

  97. Candice says:

    I am shocked but not surprised at the depth of attacks going on here. Sad to see these conversations (useful info for those on the fence about vaxing) degrade into name calling and insult contests.
    I myself was once a happy vaxxer until I discovered (from CDC’s own website btw) that MMR, Hep A, and Varicella vaccines use cells from aborted babies in production of vaccines. I am morally against abortion so now I must look for an ethical alternative.

  98. Lisa says:

    Whoa again! testy testy testy. Now this conversation is a waste of time. Thank God it is still a free country for those of us who refuse vaccines.

  99. Lisa says:

    Candice, yes. It is how I obtain a religious waiver for my son’s school. We go to Catholic school but have to follow public school health law. At least we have the civil right to refuse. Go with the basics to protect your health: nutrition, exercise, stress reduction and chiropractic. Chiropractic maintains the health of DNA (published in peer review journal)and helps the nervous system continue to fight pathogenic intrusion into the body.

  100. Snoozie says:

    Candice, I completely respect the moral opposition to abortion. However, your moral objection is misplaced when it comes to vaccines.
    The rubella and varicella viruses are grown in cell-line derived from fetuses aborted 40 years ago. These two abortions would have occurred whether or not scientists were interested in harvesting the cells. The cells harvested have the capability of multiplying endlessly, so there is no need to use cells from other abortions.
    Once the viruses are ready, they are taken out of the cell lines. These cells do not end up in the vaccines.
    The pharmaceutical companies cna be held morally culpable for continuing to use these cells lines, but parents cannot because there is no alternative. The suffering and damage that would occur if parents stopped vaccinating would far exceed the suffering and damage done to the two fetuses.
    Continue expressing your disapproval, but also continue vaccinating your children.

  101. Snoozie says:

    The Catholic school you send your son to should have instructed you on the Vatican’s position on this very topic. I encourage you to go over it with your parish priest.

  102. Snoozie says:

    Gotcha Crotchfruit1!

  103. Crotchfruit1 says:

    Candice, the vaccines were derived from fetal cell lines (the WI38 and my MRC-5) in the 1960’s. One was a medical abortion to save the mother, the other was elective. Would you rather the fetuses lives be wasted or used to save millions?

  104. dio says:

    Seriously? Muscle is filled with capillaries. Push something Sharp into a muscle and it bleeds. Inject a substance and it will be absorbed. Period.

  105. Faye says:

    Candice, thank you for your comment. Well said!

  106. Snoozie says:

    Safety as well? If you read what I posted, you’ll note the vaccine was “well-tolerated.” But if you want something more on-point with safety, here you go:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832495
    Adverse reaction of influenza A (H1N1) 2009 virus vaccination in pregnant women and its effect on newborns.
    “We investigated the adverse reactions of pregnant women who received the influenza A (H1N1) 2009 virus vaccination and also conditions of neonates of the vaccinated women. Various adverse reactions developed after vaccination, but the symptoms were mild and resolved within several days without requiring any treatment or hospitalization.”

  107. Snoozie says:

    This one is good, too:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11734710
    Safety of neonatal hepatitis B vaccine administration.
    “This study found no evidence that newborn hepatitis B vaccination is associated with an increase in the number of febrile episodes, sepsis evaluations or allergic or neurologic events. In addition our data did not support any increase in medical procedures attributed to receipt of hepatitis B vaccine.”

  108. Nicola Mucklow says:

    I don,t think anyone can state any meds or vaccines are 100% safe, but choosing to vaccinate or not must be a decision based on scientific evidence. My Mum was unvaccinated in the 1950s, caught Polio & still suffers today as a result of the disease, as you can imagine all her children, me included were vaccinated & have led happy healthy lives since. I have an autistic son, but i feel he was born autistic & i make sure both of my boys get their shots & they too are happy healthy boys (contrary to some peoples belief that all autistic children are deranged, poisoned victims)
    I have accepted that no vaccine or medication is 100% safe, but i have witnessed first hand what vaccine preventable disease can do & i refuse to chance that with my children.
    We all speak from experience, but my experience has been that of someone who has seen the damage that these diseases inflict & I know of no one personally who has a vaccine injury.
    I absolutely refute the claims made by charlatans that autism is vaccine injury. My child is not injured, ill or damaged & i can speak confidently when i say many, many parents are losing patience with the anti vaccine rhetoric we have been exposed to over the last 10 yrs or so.

  109. Lisa says:

    Don’t need to talk to my priest. An abortion is an abortion. These aborted cells multiply endlessly, sure, but it has a soul, a Blessing from God.
    Actually children heal and thrive when the vaccinating stops. You would be surprised at the # of MD’s who don’t vaccinate their children and keep mum as they shoot up their patients. We have forever changed the genetic code and have no idea what future generations will have to contend with. Sounds like a Sci-fi movie but it is real.

  110. Lisa says:

    As mothers, we also have to wonder about the vaccinations we have received and how they have affected our own children in utero. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/11/24/measles.aspx
    It’s worth looking at.

  111. Snoozie says:

    Lisa, if you are certain about your moral position, speaking to your priest should not at all intimidate you. If you can post it here on the internet, you can talk to your parish priest. I’m just telling you that pulling the “I’m Catholic and pro-life” card is innacurate according to what the Vatican instructs.
    When vaccination stops, children die. Before vaccinations, 2 million children died from measles every year and 100 children died from chicken pox. Your position holds absolutely no moral high ground.
    Your understanding of biology is deeply flawed. Explain how vaccines the genetic code. Describe in detail what process the body goes through. And explain why the cowpox vaccine did not have this effect. (In fact, the main effect was the eradication of smallpox.)

  112. Snoozie says:

    No, Lisa. Mercola is never worth looking at. He sells supplements on his site by frightening parents away from sound scientific information.

  113. Gary says:

    Because they were the richest of the rich at that time. Back then most people lived into their 40s. That is if they survived past 5 years old. Something on the order of several percent of children never survived past 5. One of the biggest reasons for this was the death rates of what are now referred to as vaccine preventable diseases.

  114. Lisa says:

    The autism/vaccine link is one thing. But how about the vaccine/SIDS link? The CDC says there isn’t one, but they only look at the studies they like. Japan has already proven it by delaying vaccines until age two. That’s fine for them. I am still anti- all vaccines for my family.

  115. Gary says:

    “Oh and not everyone who chain smokes gets lung cancer but a lot does…”
    That’s right. And this is why studies designed to look for a link were able to find one many decades ago. Unfortunately the situation is not the same with the vaccine autism accusation. Studies do not find any link because if there is one, it is vanishingly small.

  116. Lisa says:

    He sells quality supplements for two reasons. (1) we need quality. It’s hard to find and (2) he is sued constantly by people who feel threatened by him. He always wins, BTW, but it is costly to stand up for what is right.

  117. Erwin Alber says:

    “Belief in immunization is a form of delusional insanity.”
    Dr Herbert Shelton, USA
    Without meaning to be affensive, this means that you are a delusionally insane, brain-washed twit, Kelly. If it’s any consolation to you, I used to be a brain-washed moron until I found out that vaccination is an absolute fraud. I now cringe to think that over 40 years ago, I once even got a tetanus booster! It wasn’t until years later that I realised what a complete idiot I was!

  118. Gary says:

    But you did not make an informed decision. You made a misinformed decision. The list of side effects is not the information you should have been compiling. You should have compiled the RISK of those side effects. The number of potential side effects is not nearly the same as the potential risk of those effects. Its just not the same thing.
    Meanwhile, you never mentioned the list of complications from vaccine preventable diseases. Googling fear mongering anti vaccination sites simply does not constitute research.

  119. Erwin Alber says:

    Hi Kelly,
    so sorry to hear about all you have been through bcause of this government-sanctioned medical insanity.
    I have a Facebook page called ‘Vaccination Invormation Network (VINE)
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vaccination-Information-Network-VINE/69667273997
    Please send me a facebook message, or send me an e-mail to alberfj@yahoo.com
    Thanks!

  120. Lisa says:

    @Snoozie: Vatican letter dated 2005
    It is up to the faithful and citizens of upright conscience (fathers of families, doctors, etc.) to oppose, even by making an objection of conscience, the ever more widespread attacks against life and the “culture of death” which underlies them. From this point of view, the use of vaccines whose production is connected with procured abortion constitutes at least a mediate remote passive material cooperation to the abortion, and an immediate passive material cooperation with regard to their marketing. Furthermore, on a cultural level, the use of such vaccines contributes in the creation of a generalized social consensus to the operation of the pharmaceutical industries which produce them in an immoral way.
    Therefore, doctors and fathers of families have a duty to take recourse to alternative vaccines13 (if they exist), putting pressure on the political authorities and health systems so that other vaccines without moral problems become available.
    http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm

  121. Erwin Alber says:

    Your comment sounds like a bunch of crotchfruit to me.

  122. Gary says:

    “Science performed in international arenas, by communities not behold to the US vax system are discovering and have (and long ago documented) the severe neurological damage caused by vaccines.”
    Citation please?
    You are correct that some people are harmed by vaccines. There are many reasons for this, some of them not as well understood as we might like. However, we do have some pretty good science on the amount of such reactions. The rumors and outright lies of anti vaccination sites not withstanding, the rate of individuals who are permanently affected by serious vaccine reactions is very small. AND vaccines are not the only way that such reactions could occur. What I mean is that just because a person is harmed by a vaccine does not mean that avoiding the vaccine would necessarily avoid the harm.
    I would like to echo your call for reason on both sides, LJ. But I’m afraid it is woefully rare on the anti vax side of this debate. Just look at the post immediate below yours suggesting homeopathy as a substitute for vaccines. How do you proceed to a rational argument based on that sort of thing?

  123. Faithmom says:

    Now, show us a study that shows the safety and efficacy of ALL vaccines used ^in combination like when they are given at the doctors office. Thats what is needed to prove safety. So what IF you can prove ONE vaccine is safe. They aren’t given one at a time. Those studies have NEVER BEEN DONE. But good luck ^in your search.

  124. Erwin Alber says:

    Oops – sorry, that was supposed to be addressed to AnnPC!

  125. Gary says:

    Here’s the essential difference, Kimsense: the damage done to Shannon’s child can be substantiated by large scientific studies. That is, it can be shown that the pathogen isolated in her system causes the symptoms observed. The same cannot be said of a great many vaccine injury claims, and cannot be said of ANY claims of vaccine caused autism.
    For instance, if I said that I knew hundreds of people who had suddenly lost gravity, that would be an anecdote. If you noted that you had never met anyone who lost gravity, yours would also be anecdotal. However, the former claim is much less likely given what we know about gravity than the latter.
    Anecdotal stories are not reliable evidence. But some anecdotes are more reliable than others.

  126. Gary says:

    Mercury poisoning is not autism. Mercury poisoning does not cause autism. They are not the same thing.

  127. Gary says:

    Except that not vaccinating them IS risking them. ITs just a bigger risk.

  128. Gary says:

    No, Lisa. You missed her point altogether. She is saying that chemical processes inside the body convert some of the chemicals in the fruit into scary sounding chemicals.

  129. Lisa says:

    @Snoozie- we already know the health of the mother affects the baby. We also know genes will repair themselves over generations, Thank God, but that also means genes can be damaged over the generations, especially in a toxic environment of heavy metals, mercury in high fructose corn syrup, and GMO foods, etc. We are being genetically modified just like our plant and animal life. Doesn’t that scare you?

  130. Gary says:

    Seriously, Faithmom, stop listening to the antivaccination lies and just go look some things up:
    Measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella combination vaccine: safety and immunogenicity alone and in combination with other vaccines given to children. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Varicella Vaccine Study Group
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9142794
    “Eight hundred and twelve children, 12 months to 3.5 years of age, were enrolled in two clinical studies to evaluate the safety and immunogenicity of a live, attenuated combination vaccine for measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella (MMRV). Children were enrolled in one of two randomized, multicenter studies, involving administration of (1) MMRV and placebo vs. measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (M-M-R(II)) and varicella-zoster virus vaccine (VARIVAX), given at separate anatomic sites at the same office visit; or (2) MMRV, DTaP (diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine) and OPV (oral polio vaccine) vs. M-M-R(II), DTaP, and OPV, with VARIVAX given 6 weeks later. All vaccine regimens were generally well tolerated. More than 95% of vaccinees seroconverted for measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella, regardless of the vaccine or regimen used. In each study, the level of antibody titer to varicella virus was significantly lower in vaccinees receiving MMRV than in those who received VARIVAX in a separate syringe.”
    I really am sorry to be the one to tell you that whenever serious scientists look for adverse vaccine reactions, the rate of such reactions is always extremely small. I know that sounds disingenuous, but I am being sincere. If vaccines really caused all of the things some antivaccinationists believe, then we would have a very easy way to prevent lots of suffering. The problem is that it simply not true. Stopping vaccinations would cause suffering, not relieve it.

  131. Lisa says:

    The Catholic school has no right to instruct me on the position of the Vatican. I had my waiver papers properly filled out. By law, they have to accept them. But this response clearly shows, we are right to avoid all possibile promotions of the culture of death.

  132. Snoozie says:

    The church has no right to instruct you on the position of the Vatican? What?!?!?

  133. Snoozie says:

    You need to read the whole thing. The Vatican asserts the necessity of vaccinating in order to avoid suffering and death among children and unborn babies.
    “- as regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one’s
    own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole – especially for pregnant women;
    – the lawfulness of the use of these vaccines should not be misinterpreted as a declaration of the lawfulness of their production, marketing and use, but is to be understood as being a passive material cooperation and, in its mildest and remotest sense, also active, morally justified as an extrema ratio due to the necessity to provide for the good of one’s children and of the people who come in contact with the children (pregnant women);
    – such cooperation occurs in a context of moral coercion of the conscience of parents, who are forced to choose to act against their conscience or otherwise, to put the health of their children and of the population as a whole at risk. This is an unjust alternative choice, which must be eliminated as soon as possible.”

  134. Snoozie says:

    Explain to me the mechanisms of genetic changes caused by fructose and mercury. And then explain to me which vaccines contain mercury and what kind of mercury they contain.

  135. Snoozie says:

    This particular link is awful. It is so rife with misinformation, I am unsure where to begin. In any cases, no, diseases were not already declining.
    http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/concepts/intro6.htm
    Vaccines FTW!

  136. Snoozie says:

    Complete and utter rubbish.

  137. Snoozie says:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TD4-4N8K597-3&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F21%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=410b10952fcb7207ea68ce9c85d47504&searchtype=a
    Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis
    “Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS.” That’s right. Vaccines may REDUCE the risk of SIDS. Go Vaccines!

  138. Snoozie says:

    He sells useless supplements to make money. Your fear is his marketing campaign.

  139. Gary says:

    The information you are referring to about Japan is from a woman who was trying to sell cot death detectors. IT is a lie. She misread or misrepresented the data so badly that it is hard to take anything else she said seriously.
    “What decreased are claims of SIDS to the vaccine reporting system in Japan, which would obviously happen since SIDS by definition does not occur in two year olds. Rates of SIDS, on the other hand, increased steadily in Japan in the 70′s, 80′s and 90′s until the implementation of SIDS prevention strategies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8838467). Pertussis incidence also increased in Japan, from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979 (http://tinyurl.com/2wadkjj). ”
    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/immunise.htm
    Meanwhile there is lots of good evidence showing that SIDS is not related to vaccination, and my be slightly reduced by it:
    Do immunizations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0264410X07002800
    This is a good overview of the scientific literature from 2006. It includes lots of references and suggests that immunizations do not contribute to SIDS. Sudden infant death syndrome: http://canadianmedicaljournal.ca/cgi/content/full/174/13/1861
    This article talks about the AAP policy of recommending that infants sleep on their back. Specifically, it disputes the suggestion that SIDS rates are going up. They are, in fact, going down.
    AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS: Changing Concepts of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome: Implications for Infant Sleeping Environment and Sleep Position:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/105/3/650

  140. Snoozie says:

    Did you breastfeed your children? Breastmilk contains aluminum.

  141. Laura says:

    Nicola – I am sorry that your son is autistic – unfortunately although I am sure you love him with all your heart he is injured/damaged/altered or whatever term you would prefer. He requires assistance to lead a “normal” life that a person who is not autistic usually does not require. This isn’t an insult to your son. It is simply how it is. A handicap for him.
    How many vaccines did he get at birth? Or better yet, how many vaccines did you get as a child? We do not know if these vaccines damage the delicate eggs we hold in our bodies from birth. Studies on dogs and cats have shown the vaccines can cause our bodies to start to attack not only the virus but the other elements of the vaccine, as identified as foreign bodies. This caused the dogs immune system to attack many parts of their body – study was done by Purdue University I believe and also investigated way over 160,000 cats formed cancer at their vaccine injection sites – the most startling finding was it attacked the dogs own DNA. If the vaccines we got effected our eggs this could very well be way makes a person get or be susceptible to autism. Think of that as the “genetic” element to autism. Anything that damages or engages the epigenome (or the alterable outer coating on the genetic ladder which causes, say a person who is holding the gene for a particular cancer, to get it if altered but things like… lets say TOXINS) And to be fair even your mother’s own disease could have done the same thing if she got it prior to giving birth. It is time we start to understand that unhealthy people make unhealthy babies and unfortunately, through many factors, we are almost all doing just that. Can we fix it? I am not sure we can but I suppose we must go on. I am blessed that I am from a long line of people that took very good care of their bodies with as limited an amount of toxins as is likely possible for this day and age. This is why autism is not “caused” completely by vaccines but vaccines by their nature could cause the same body reaction that my grandchildren may have just from all the toxins in our society. Yes, eating celery or an apple is horrible too. My grandmother couldn’t eat many of these things – she would get a rash and she could taste the poison – and so can I. It is hard to eat at all knowing what I am doing – what we are all doing. Not vaccinated is at least one thing I can control 🙁 And to Snoozie – the risk of vaccine reaction is far more likely than getting any of the diseases. I have looked at all the statistic, both current and pre-vaccine and pre-antibiotic. You can do. Al is found on the CDC site and you can run the statistics if you can multiply and divide (unlike the 1 out of 70 children these days that cannot and likely will never be able to)

  142. Laura says:

    sorry for typos – a bit distracted here ….

  143. Snoozie says:

    Nate, you should read through all the comments on this thread. Your Amish myth has already been debunked by Gary:

    Gary :
    the Amish do indeed vaccinate, and they do have autism. They have autism amongst those who vaccinate AND they have autism amongst those who do not vaccinate. See, the fact is that autism is simply not related to vaccination rates or schedule in any measurable way.
    http://autism.about.com/b/2008/04/23/do-the-amish-vaccinate-indeed-they-do-and-their-autism-rates-may-be-lower.htm
    http://www.pedneur.com/article/S0887-8994%2808%2900541-9/abstract

  144. ma says:

    kelly, you are a heartless jerk. ann said that her doctors all confirmed that her and her daughter’s issues were all due to vaccines. that isn’t anecdotal. she’s actually lucky to have doctors who are willing to admit that vaccines can and do cause harm rather than just constantly chalking it up to coincidence. there are way too many “coincidences.” when would it stop being coincidence in your eyes? perhaps if your own children were to have some sort of serious adverse reaction? no, i do not wish any harm on you or your children…but is that what it would take for you to realize that vaccines DO harm people??? btw, i’m sure her daughter reacted to all the chemicals and adjuvants and foreign dna in the chicken pox vaccine and that her son would be completely fine if he were to get the wild illness…since the wild illness doesn’t come with all that other crap that is found in vaccines.

  145. Lisa says:

    you know all about thimerisol
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-1.pdf
    it is being phased out, if you can believe them, then there’s the aluminum.
    We already know damaged DNA in sperm get passed on to the offspring. We also know chemicals damage DNA. Why can’t we entertain the idea that vaccines cause DNA damage that could be passed on to the children.
    The Haywood Foundation/Purdue Univ. of Veterinarian Medicine studied DNA damage in vaccinated dogs and compared it to non-vaccinated dogs

  146. Gary says:

    “And to Snoozie – the risk of vaccine reaction is far more likely than getting any of the diseases”
    But this is blatantly not true. Are you one of those who cannot and likely will never be able to multiply or divide? Before vaccines measles was endemic. That means that almost everyone caught it. Meanwhile after many very expensive technologies were developed, and so only here in the developed world, up to 2 out of every 1000 people infected DIED from measles. You are here claiming that 1 out of 1000 people die as a result of vaccinations. I would very much like to see you prove this.

  147. Lisa says:

    Hi Lauara, i was commenting on the dog/cat vaccine study at the same time you were, funny. You have great comments here, esp. on the concern for genetic alteration.

  148. Lisa says:

    As fast as we make a so called vaccine, the diseases mutate and they win. We never predict the correct flu strain do we, now why is that? I swear these microorganisms are smarter than we are!!!! LOL LOL LOL

  149. ChrisKid says:

    Lisa, as to the vaccine schedule in Japan:
    “Although anti-vaccine proponents will likely applaud Japan’s immunization schedule, it is important to note that vaccine-preventable infections are still a big problem in Japan. In early 2000, there were 20 to 30,000 reported cases of measles a year in Japan, with actual numbers of cases 5 to 10 times higher due to under reporting. Although rates are trending down, as recently as 2008, Japan had 11,015 reported cases of measles, compared to 140 in the US.
    Also of note is that there were 104,568 cases of mumps in Japan in 2009, along with 148 cases of rubella, 2 cases of congenital rubella syndrome, and 113 cases of tetanus.
    Routine pertussis vaccinations were halted in Japan in 1975 following the deaths of two children. That eventually lead to epidemic cases of whooping cough in the country and at least 41 deaths in children before the vaccine was restarted.”
    http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2011/03/08/japans-vaccine-problem.htm
    You’re also incorrect to say that the Japanese delay vaccination until after age two. I’ll post that in a minute, but you might want to check your source for that one. It’s, quite simply, wrong.

  150. Snoozie says:

    Asking for a single study proving the safety and efficacy of all vaccines only demonstrates your misunderstanding about how the scientific method works. Science investigates specific hypotheses, not every single possible outcome. How ridiculously dismissive of you.
    Perhaps I should turn the tables, Faithmom. Why don’t you provide a single study showing that every single vaccine is both unsafe and ineffective? See how ridiculous that request is.
    I am dismayed at the level of scientific illiteracy in this thread.

  151. Snoozie says:

    Lisa–An infant is exposed to more aluminum in breast milk than in all the vaccines they receive. Are you advocating against breastfeeding as well?

  152. Lisa says:

    your hhs link shows polio was all over the place, up and down , up and down long before the vaccine, most of the other graphs didn’t start until the 1990’s???? that’s lousy recording…. looks like both sides just pick and choose which stats they like best, huh?

  153. Snoozie says:

    Gary’s right, Laura. You are either woefully misinformed or lying.
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#risk
    This link supports everything Gary wrote above.

  154. Lisa says:

    breast milk is digested thru the GI tract, the GI tract has defenses in place, so the body does its best, shoving chemicals into the blood stream is illogical and dangerous.

  155. Lisa says:

    Nice stats from the CDC, how about an independent researcher? we all have bias on our side don’t we. Even doctors admit vaccine reactions are underreported.

  156. ChrisKid says:

    http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/ScheduleResult.cfm
    Lisa, please note the number of immunizations where the ages are given in months, and then take a look at the number where the age under years is 1.
    OPV, DTaP, BCG, Measles, Rubella are all given well before two years, and so is HepB in the case of antigen positive mothers.
    Then it might be a good idea to compare the Japanese schedule to the U.S. one, while you compare rates of infectious disease. As people keep saying, connect the dots.
    I think you should question what else your source got wrong. Or lied about. This took about three minutes to check on. If your sources aren’t willing to invest even a modicum of time in checking information, why would you trust them at all?

  157. Lisa says:

    they were looking at SIDS, not child hood diseases, do we know how many of those recent cases of mumps, etc. came from vaccinated populations or unvaccinated populations? If we looked at the last 100 years or so we could probably show the disease rates have been the same, with some ups and downs when averaged out were insignificant. It has only been in recent years that unvaccinated populations have really been studied for their health habits and what stands out as to why they DON’T get disease or fly through them easily. That is where the real study has to be. I know tons of 60-70 year olds, never vaccinated but had superb health habits. This is what counts, not the drugs and shots.

  158. Nate said;
    “If proof fell right on your head you would find a well worded way not to acknowledge it.”
    I just wanted to say on that note, “EXACTLY”, Nate!
    Thank goodness for your voice of reason & the others here setting the record straight, too.

  159. Lisa says:

    I got my information from the research of Harris Coulter. This was on the DPT link with SIDS, written back in the 1980’s early 1990’s so it is likely Japan changed their scheudules later on. As far as I know Japan does not require but recommends vaccines.

  160. Lisa says:

    I said the Catholic school, not church, i read the document, it still suppported my stance. It danced very carefully around the issue, did you not see that?

  161. Kat says:

    Using natural resources to assist our bodies in a polluted world = no faith? Silly notion.

  162. Kat says:

    Sorry, intended to address the others below your post, Susan.

  163. Lisa says:

    too bad i don’t feel like paying the 31 bucks for the whole study, i’d like to see dates here. this may have coincided with the Back to Sleep campaign, how do we separate the two?

  164. kimsense says:

    Gary, please tell me you have read a vaccine package insert. The makers of the vaccines have studies that show there are side effects. Just like any other drug.

  165. Lisa says:

    Angie, that sounds like a DAN doctor, keep up with it, you’re on the right track. i don’t have a child with autism, but i’ve seen how others have changed with diet, etc. I am a chiropractor and I can tell you there are 2 free children’s hospitals run by chiropractors who do a lot of natural therapies, detoxing, adjustments, rehab and play therapy. Oklahaven Hospital in Oklahoma and Kentuckiana children’s Center in Kentucky. Check out their websites. http://www.kentuckiana.org/ and http://www.chiropractic4kids.com/

  166. It’s never a welcome thing for deception, whether it’s those with vested interests or those they have duped, when so much truth comes out of the wood work as it is. I want to say, thank you, Toby, for speaking out. Thank you on behalf of children every where for helping to bring them in from, further, harm of this long time fraud pretended to be science.

  167. In Italy a court ruled that a couple is allowed not to vaccine their child not only because he’s in very good health but also because the judges found their worries to be legitimate – given the high recurrency of severe collateral damage from vaccines that is scientifically well documented.
    Don’t let big pharma to fool you. We don’t need so many obbligatory vaccines.. as everything that exists in the universe, if something is brought to exageration becomes dangerous and starts damaging us. Vaccines are not an exception to this universal law.

  168. You got that right, Charmaine. I can’t believe anyone still refuses to see the logic as they stick to the same bull they’ve been fed. It’s plain crazy & amazing with all the evidence that’s surfaced these past couple of years. I thank the good God is to see so many waking up. That Time Square ad was a big plus, too, & soon, more of our masses will become educated on vaccines. It used to be when I would alert people in public about vaccines, they we’re quite taken in disbelief. Then, a year, or so, ago they became more receptive. Now, I find at least half are already aware when I broach the subject. And that’s great progress for certain.

  169. kimsense says:

    then there are 1 in 70 mercury poisoned boys in this country. we need to stop calling it autism anyway.

  170. Jennifer Laura says:

    EXCELLENT POST… WELL SAID.

  171. kimsense says:

    this is a typical response of someone who wants to intimidate and doesn’t know what they are talking about. no place for that talk snoozie, anything you say from now on means nothing.

  172. kimsense says:

    i meant crotchfruit and snoozie

  173. It was actually sanitation & such because vaccines were not even in the picture when the decline began. Proper research will show the true facts. Don’t beLIEve people like Gary or me. Do the research for yourself & see.
    The real facts are recorded in the archives of history for posterity to learn from & they can’t change history. They can try to hide it but no one can change it.

  174. Jennifer Laura says:

    …. most anti vaxxers have to look up the difference between Ethyl and Methyl. I agree with ALL your posts. I was once anti- vax until I educated myself. Vaccines cannot change your genetic make up anymore than pollen can. Vaccines only go as deep as an allergy. @Lisa, the amount of ALUMINUM in a vaccine is LESS than the amount in a can of food. The ETHYL mercury in a vaccine is LESS than the amount a mother passes to her child during breastfeeding. A child will face MORE toxins just being born than in all the vaccines combined at once.

  175. Steve Michaels says:

    Gary you REALLY should read what you cite. The first citation shows exactly how pro-vaxers twist the obvious into something else to fit a preconceived bias. From your first citation:
    “Just to check for myself, I called Strauss’s clinic and chatted with a community liaison named Rebecca. Rebecca, who grew up among the Amish, confirms that about 70% of the Amish in Lancaster County do, indeed, vaccinate. She also confirms that the rate of autism seems to be lower among the Amish than among the general population.”
    She then tries to explain away this correlation by stating that maybe it’s all about social acceptance. Couldn’t be that vaccines then could it? At 70% vaccination, that’s around 20% to 30% below the general population which is 90% to 98%. AND AUTISM RATES ARE LOWER (although they don’t actually say what the rate is). On top of that, earlier on the citation explains:
    “Strauss said the clinic treats “syndromic autism”, where autism as part of a more complicated clinical spectrum that can include mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, unusual facial features, and short stature, as well as Fragile X syndrome. “We see quite a few Amish children with Fragile X,” he said.”
    Do you understand what that means? It means that much of the autism seen is NOT regressive autism in otherwise normal babies, but a genetic issue tied to other forms of retardation not seen in the general population. This actually means that the regressive diagnoses are much smaller than what you are inferring from the article.
    Your second citation is equally worthless. It is a study of a single Amish girl with genetic issues as cited in your first citation. Nobody is saying that the ONLY cause of autism is vaccines, but showing that there can be other causes does not in anyway disprove a vaccine related causation.

  176. You are, either, deceiving people purposley, Gary, or you haven’t been paying attention.

  177. Jennifer Laura says:

    Jennifer Laura :
    …. most anti vaxxers have to look up the difference between Ethyl and Methyl. I agree with ALL your posts Snoozie. I was once anti- vax until I educated myself. Vaccines cannot change your genetic make up anymore than pollen can. Vaccines only go as deep as an allergy. @Lisa, the amount of ALUMINUM in a vaccine is LESS than the amount in a can of food. The ETHYL mercury in a vaccine is LESS than the amount a mother passes to her child during breastfeeding. A child will face MORE toxins just being born than in all the vaccines combined at once.

  178. Steve Michaels says:

    You want virriol Snoozie? Read how nasty and heartless your comrade Kelly is! Something about pot, kettle and black comes to mind, except in virtually all of the discussions on here, there is very little that can be described as ‘vitriol’ from people opposed to vaccines.

  179. Steve Michaels says:

    By the way, don’t quote those numbers without any citations. Otherwise you are merely ‘fear-mongering’. Thanks for proving my point that a key pro-vax argument is that “YOUR CHILDREN WILL DIE IF YOU DON’T VACCINATE!!” It is patently untrue and the statistics bear that out quite convincingly.

  180. Wow. Thank you. You do know your stuff, Jim. And it shows.

  181. Steve Michaels says:

    So what you are saying then Gary is that since there were no vaccines in those days, access to higher standards of living created longer life spans? Sounds like it to me. So why is it so difficult for you to see that higher standards of living caused a decrease in mortality in the 20th century? If you would be consistent, you would change your views.

  182. Lisa says:

    As i said, the chemcial soup of metals, diseased cells and mutated proteins are injected into the blood stream bypassing the immune system of the gut. Eating food out of a can and breastfeeding are nothing like a shot of chemicals into the arm.

  183. Steve Michaels says:

    And the studies for the link between lung cancer and smoking were rigged for decades. Hell, even doctors advertised smoking, Camels in particular. Why is it so hard to believe that the same thing is happening now, especially given that the pharmaceutical industry is the single largest industry in the world and the relatively small cigarette industry buried the dangers successfully for years without the financial firepower of pharma…

  184. Thank you, Elizabeth. Your input was appreciated & recognized as truth, over the deception denying the fact, by those interested in it.

  185. Thank you LJ for your well rounded input. I am not agreeing with you that any vaccine is beneficial or safe, as I believe they only suppress disease & cause problems later, but the logic you use is refreshing.
    I agree with these wise voices that have been trying to tell the world the truth;
    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION
    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html
    My favorite:
    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

  186. Don’t let the nay sayers get to you, Lisa. Thank you for trying to be helpful. Anything alternative that might cut into the profit of those with vested interests always gets attacked.

  187. Gary says:

    That does not make sense. Why would babies who had not been immunized somehow also be unaffected by the Back to Sleep campaigns? This particular study looked at several other studies all of which looked at groups of kids grouped in cohorts. That means among other things that they were born at the same time. Those who had been vaccinated were 50% less likely to die of SIDS.
    What sort of factor would cause the non vaccinated kids to also ignore the Back to Sleep campaigns? Are you suggesting that vaccine refusers (not many of whom would have been in this study because there are not that many) ignore advice from quasi government agencies for that reason alone?

  188. Steve Michaels says:

    I suggest you actually research how the body works before you start telling people how great your suggestion are for good health. You are right that injections are subcutaneously (you could call that intramuscularly) and not intravenously. However, the net effect is the same. Most disease-causing organisms enter your body through the mucous membranes of your nose, mouth, pulmonary system or your digestive tract – NOT through an injection. These mucous membranes have their own immune system, called the IgA immune system. It is a different system from the one activated when a vaccine is injected into your body. Your IgA immune system is your body’s first line of defense. Its job is to fight off invading organisms at their entry points, reducing or even eliminating the need for activation of your body’s immune system. Bypassing this system carries with it a host of unintended consequences, such as ordinarily “friendly” substances being tagged as foreign invaders by the internal immune system thus causing auto-immune diseases such as GWS. In fact, this very phenomenon is the basis for the ‘pregnancy vaccine’. By attaching HCG to tetanus vaccines, women develop anti-bodies to HGC thus causing a miscarriage if they become pregnant.
    http://www.fwhc.org/health/vaccine.htm
    This is the very reason why all of the rubbish about how some vaccine ingredients are already present in the human body and are therefore ‘safe’ are indeed rubbish. Virtually all GWS victims were shown to have an abnormal antibody to squalene which was used as an adjuvant in the experimental anthrax vaccine given to US troops in GW 1. Squalene is a natural oil in the body, but if the immune system starts attacking it, then all sorts of issues arise.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10640454

  189. ChrisKid says:

    Well, for one thing, at least some of them were among the pioneers of vaccination in this country. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson for two that I know of.
    Seriously, though, dugmaze, I’d think twice before I made flat statements like that. Have you checked that out, or are you just assuming from the few you know of? All? Really?

  190. ChrisKid says:

    Not only did vaccines contain thimerosal, one of the popular home treatments for cuts and scrapes was some form of mercury compound, because of its antibacterial properties. Merthiolate and Mercurochrome were the two used in my house when I was growing up. If the infinitesimal amounts of trace thimerosal in vaccines cause autism, then the rates of autism should have been hugely higher in the forties, fifties, and sixties, as millions of children had this stuff put on every open wound they got.

  191. Steve Michaels says:

    Gary, maybe you should go and make sure that you get all of your boosters and flu vaccines and every vaccine under the sun. Maybe your luck will run out and YOU will be the victim. Except then you won’t be able to post on here and someone else will be here to tell your family that it couldn’t have been the vaccines and attack YOUR family for trying to stand up for you.

  192. ChrisKid says:

    Because Jim is so much better educated than the rest of us and has access to information that we don’t have, but none of his extensive education has taught him that germs cause disease. He doesn’t believe that at all.
    Jim, quick question: If germs have nothing to do with the cause of disease, what good will all that sanitation do? What’s the point of cleaning up the filth (except it does make life more pleasant) if not to remove the germs in it?

  193. No, Lisa. this conversation is not a waste of time. Because of voices of reason like yours, Laura’s & many others, truth is shining through for those silent & taking it all in. Thank you both, thank you all. Those in opposition are being seen for what they are by those that count. Just step back & take a look at all these comments as a whole. Wouldn’t you have to say truth kicked the butt of deception? I would.

  194. ChrisKid says:

    Then possibly you can explain how smallpox can cause leprosy, a completely unrelated disease.
    People, do you get the gist of his post? “You can’t see viruses with the naked eye, so they don’t really exist.” Oh, and “I’ve never been sick so I know all there is to know about disease and health.”

  195. Steve Michaels says:

    And if you don’t recognize that there is a difference between ingestion and injection then you are even more ignorant than you appear.

  196. Steve Michaels says:

    All that study shows on safety is that it did not cause an INCREASE in adverse reactions when combined with all of the other vaccines already received by both subject and control groups. It means nothing! On top of that, many auto-immune diseases and cancers don’t show until months or even years later. We are told that vaccines provide us with immunity for years or even life, but that we can only have adverse reactions within 7 days? Let me say that again. We are told to expect this stuff to affect our bodies positively potentially for life, but they can only hurt us for a matter of days. Stacking the deck of research is an understatement!

  197. Steve Michaels says:

    Again this study only look for adverse reactions for 21 days while we are told the vaccine positive reactions last for years.

  198. Steve Michaels says:

    You really ought to just not bother posting anything Crotchfruit1. You have contributed nothing but vicious name calling, offensive language and taking the Lord’s name in vain. It could almost be excused if you were actually adding anything to the conversation, but you haven’t.

  199. ChrisKid says:

    I’m sorry your son has to deal with that. But when you say that the truth lies in reform, what do you mean by that? What severe neurological damage has this international science found that doctors in the U.S. have not accepted? Can you show us a cite for that?
    Actually, the main reason for the vaccine court is that there were so many damage suits being brought against vaccine manufacturers about the DPT vaccine that it nearly disappeared from the market. Manufacturers stopped producing it, which led to severe shortages, and left children unprotected. It also made it much more expensive, which put it out of reach of some families. And the evidence shows us, since then, that the DPT was not the cause of that particular problem.
    Obviously, nothing in life is perfect, and both medical practice and scientific research need to be monitored, but to imply that doctors in general are that callous and cruel is just dishonest.

  200. Steve Michaels says:

    Oh and we should trust the vaccine manufacturers and their scientists? They make a hell of a lot more money than Mercola off of their products. On top of that you don’t have to buy anything from Mercola, but the Government takes our tax money and pays pharma to provide this stuff whether we like it or not. If you dismiss Mercola out of hand without so much as disproving anything he says, you must dismiss everything from pharma or you are a complete hypocrit.

  201. E's Mom says:

    If I take tylenol it will be in my breastmilk, but that doesn’t mean it was made in my body.

  202. Diana, you still *have* your child. Your energies would be best spend learning how to love and support that child in the present, rather than mourning a child who never existed. And I hope that child never reads what you’ve written in this space.

  203. Gary says:

    Oh, Golly, stevey. You did not read either comment did you. The links were meant to demonstrate that both of Toby’s points are in fact fallacious. They are essentially lies spread by AOA. To wit that the Amish don’t vaccinate AND that they do not suffer from Autism. These two claims together are, in fact, a claim that vaccines and vaccines alone cause autism. Given that, I posted a link discrediting both Mr Olmstead AND these claims.
    As you correctly point out, just because the Amish vaccinated and they have autistic children does not prove that vaccines do or do not cause autism. Having said that, it does mean that my citations and certainly not the portions you quoted support Toby’s nor you position.
    The Amish may indeed have a different rate of vaccination. They may even have a different rate or autism diagnoses. But they are a pretty distinct population. It would be very difficult indeed to determine with any accuracy more subtle causation factors from broad statements about this group of people. You could make causation claims IF they failed to vaccinate and IF they had not incidence of autism. But that is not true. It simply isn’t.
    http://imfar.confex.com/imfar/2010/webprogram/Paper7336.html
    “Preliminary data have identified the presence of ASD in the Amish community at a rate of approximately 1 in 271 children using standard ASD screening and diagnostic tools although some modifications may be in order. Further studies are underway to address the cultural norms and customs that may be playing a role in the reporting style of caregivers, as observed by the ADI. Accurate determination of the ASD phenotype in the Amish is a first step in the design of genetic studies of ASD in this population. ”
    Keep in mind the term ‘Preliminary’.

  204. Steve Michaels says:

    Jennifer Laura :
    …. most anti vaxxers have to look up the difference between Ethyl and Methyl. I agree with ALL your posts. I was once anti- vax until I educated myself. Vaccines cannot change your genetic make up anymore than pollen can. Vaccines only go as deep as an allergy. @Lisa, the amount of ALUMINUM in a vaccine is LESS than the amount in a can of food. The ETHYL mercury in a vaccine is LESS than the amount a mother passes to her child during breastfeeding. A child will face MORE toxins just being born than in all the vaccines combined at once.

    I suggest you look up the meaning of ‘recombination’ before you claim that vaccines cannot change genetic make up.

  205. Kelly says:

    ma :
    i’m sure her daughter reacted to all the chemicals and adjuvants and foreign dna in the chicken pox vaccine and that her son would be completely fine if he were to get the wild illness…since the wild illness doesn’t come with all that other crap that is found in vaccines.

    I guess I would be a mean heartless jerk to point out that her daughter didn’t react to the adjuvants in the chicken pox vaccine, because the chicken vaccine does not contain any adjuvants? As for chemicals, let’s see, in milligram quantities (a milligram is one thousandth of a gram, and there are 454 g in a pound, so what would that be, less than a drop of water) we got a phosphate buffer (just like the human body), sugar (sucrose), table salts (sodium chloride and MSG), gelatin (Bill Crosby should be ashamed of himself for promoting that toxic jello!), human DNA and proteins (because Ann’s daughter isn’t human and wouldn’t have any of that naturally occurring in her body, thus the claim of foreign DNA?) and then there are trace amounts of EDTA, antibiotics and fetal bovine serum.
    So despite that lack of adjuvants and toxins in the vaccine, Ma just knows that’s the cause of the little girl’s poor health. And correct, the wild virus doesn’t come with any chemicals. Instead the wild virus comes with virulence factors that lead to itchy, fluid-filled blisters, fever, bacterial secondary infections (skin and septicemia), pneumonia, Reye’s syndrome, encephalitis and possible death.
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf
    But hey, if you don’t understand the science, use ad hominems. Calling me names doesn’t change the fact that Anne and her daughter are not vaccine damaged. Saying that does not mean that I deny vaccine reactions occur. Vaccine reactions occur but at order of magnitudes less than disease complications occur.

  206. ChrisKid says:

    First of all, Lisa, why on earth would you be stating those things as current fact when they come from sources that old? As I suggested, do some checking before you say things.
    In a quick search, it seems that Japan does not legally require vaccines, but neither does the U.S., for that matter. And the reason Japan does not mandate them is that they have concluded that they get better compliance that way. So their system of ‘recommending, not requiring’ is so that more children will be vaccinated, not because they have serious doubts about the vaccines.

  207. I am horrified by the ignorance and misinformation-mongering in this post, as well as the lack of sympathy for parents whose children have not just suffered but died from vaccine-preventable disease.
    Just in case any reader thinks the comments above are representative of the way most parents of kids with autism think, let me quote Dr. Paul Offit — from http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.com/2011/01/interview-dr-paul-offit.html:
    “A small group of parents represent anti-vaccination ideas. But they’re very passionate, very vocal, very Internet savvy, very media-savvy. And so their voice is much louder than that of the silent majority. My email from parents is 10:1 favorable, thanking me for what I’m doing, etc.”
    I hope these parents eventually find better support networks, led by those who believe in supporting our children with autism in the here and now, not despite harmful and utterly disrespectful conspiracy theories about those children being lost, stolen, or injured by vaccines.
    The folks above who espouse anti-vaccination views are persistent, but terribly misinformed. They and their children deserve our sympathy but not our eyeballs.

  208. ChrisKid says:

    I guess it’s a good thing we don’t decide scientific relevance in the courtroom, then. Legal decisions have no bearing on the research, and the opinion of one judge doesn’t, either.
    While you’re at it, could you show us some of that documentation?

  209. First sentence correction: “the *comments on* this post”

  210. Gary says:

    Marsha, sanitation had a lot to do with the decline in moratlity from variaous causes between the 18th and 20th centuries. Medical inovations also had quite a bit to do with it. So did the improved nutrition made available by the overall improvement in living conditions. Vaccines did not make a major impact until the early to mid 20th century (with the possible exception of small pox vaccine which had certainly saved many lives before then).
    I find I have to agree with you, Marsha. Don’t believe you or me. Do “Proper” research. But Proper means listening to bias controlled studies rather than anecdotes, rumors, or snake oil peddlers. It means listening to researchers, doctors, clinicians and scientists who have expertise in the fields of immunology, toxicology, and infectious diseases.
    While this is a start, it is only a start:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm
    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vs-sv/factsfigs-eng.php
    http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu00.html

  211. Gary says:

    Sigh, your capacity to misinterpret the English language is truly astounding, stevey.
    I actually did not say anything about vaccines in the post you are responding to. dugmaze was trying to make a point that people lived longer in the past for some reason. I was pointing out that his overall point is incorrect in that his only sample is an outlier.
    Having said that, Of course improved living conditions are a factor in longer life. I challenge you to find a single post of mine where I ever said it did not. Your problem, Steve, is that you conclude from this fact that other things do not lead to longer lives or less deaths. This position is patently false.
    Namely, your insistence on repeating the Obomsawin et al graphs of mortality figures.

  212. Thank you, Federico. Less & less of our people are being fooled. The documentation ChrisKid asks for is available & soon, will be posted, here, for all to see. So much in fact, it can’t be denied. Watch for it.

  213. Shawn Siegel says:

    As a grandparent, I don’t want a single government official or medical professional rationalizing why when an adverse reaction to a vaccine is reported to the national Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System s/he can then ask me to assume that, because correlation (in this case, temporal) doesn’t necessarily mean causation, I should discount the possibility of connection – not when those “adversities” include lupus, paralysis, blood disorders, epilepsy and death. Correlation most certainly does not necessarily negate causation, and it is unacceptable for anyone to assume or say they know the answer – because it cannot be known – and on that basis unequivocally recommend vaccination. That is an abrogation of their responsibility, which is simply to provide the facts – not to minimize potential vaccine-associated risks. To the point, based on thousands of reactions to the DTaP vaccine (I chose this one almost randomly; the same type of scenario is valid for all the vaccines), as listed in VAERS and as reflected on the vaccine manufacturers’ product inserts, and research the French have conducted specifically on the potential risk of injection of aluminum adjuvants, contained in all the DTaP vaccines, the following is an accurate disclaimer that would have to accompany an ad for the shot, were it aired on TV:
    (Check with your doctor – the vaccine is contraindicated in some circumstances; for instance, if you’ve had a prior adverse reaction to the DTaP vaccine, or are immunocompromised. Some people experience nausea immediately following vaccination, or within a few hours. The aluminum adjuvant in the vaccine, used to stimulate the immune system, may leave a hard lump at the injection site, which may be hot to the touch – this will typically dissipate in a few days, but has been known to effect muscle pain and chronic fatigue, and, though rare, may trigger development of autoimmune disease, such as multiple sclerosis (MS) or amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease); consult with your doctor at the first sign of any such reaction. The vaccine recipient may issue a high-pitched shriek sometime within the twenty-four hours following vaccination, which may indicate brain inflammation, and may be followed by a lengthy period of regression – consult with your doctor. The DTaP may cause bulging fontanelle in infants – this typically subsides after a few days, but may indicate brain damage; be alert for unusual behaviors, and call your doctor should you detect any. Also in infants, reports associate SIDS with the vaccine; for a period of about three weeks following vaccination, do not place your infant face-down. And, you may experience any combination of the following reported reactions, some of which may require hospitalization: abdominal pain, anaphylactic shock, apnoea, autism, bacterial/viral infections, convulsions, disintegrative disorder, coma, abnormal EEG, blood disorders, diabetes, eye movement disorder, hearing loss, trouble walking, narcolepsy, paralysis, pneumonia, impairment of psychomotor skills, screaming, and speech disorders. This vaccine has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or for impairment of fertility.)

  214. Lisa says:

    Harris Coulter wrote amazing books that should be looked at very carefully, (irregardless of the dates of publication) he wrote on the vaccine assualt on the brain including its impact on social violence and criminality. He recently died in 2009 but his work will live on.

  215. Steve Michaels says:

    Why didn’t you publish the whole list Kelly?
    25 mg of sucrose
    12.5 mg hydrolyzed gelatin (generally bovine and offensive to Hindus, if porcine then offensive to Jewish and Islamic)
    3.2 mg sodium chloride
    0.5 mg monosodium L-glutamate (a known neurotoxin)
    0.45 mg of sodium phosphate dibasic (a laxative)
    0.08 mg of potassium phosphate monobasic (a fungicide also used in cigarettes)
    0.08 mg of potassium chloride (used as the third of a three-drug combination in lethal injection)
    residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein
    trace quantities of sodium phosphate monobasic
    EDTA (a chleation drug)
    neomycin (an antibiotic which many people are allergic to)
    fetal bovine serum.
    Lovely stuff. No adfuvants though!

  216. Im not either for or not for vaccines, though i am rather disturbed looking at what goes into them. My question is — GOVERNMENT documents clearly states that 1 in 160 children now have Autism spectrum disorder.
    this is the highest rate of anything that anybody has ever had.
    research is actually starting to show that there is a link between this ASD and vaccines, so how can anybody state that the risks are lower byu vaccination than they are by not vaccinating when 1 in 160 childrens and parents lives are destroyed by autism.

  217. Snoozie says:

    I, too, am horrified, Shannon. Well-stated.

  218. Steve Michaels says:

    Have you read the comments Shannon? Heartfelt stories from victims of vaccines, rational refutations of pro-vax propaganda met with expletives and outright viciousness by your comrades! And please don’t quote Offitt, he is a very wealthy man from vaccines, both by his funded Chair at CHoP and his vaccine patents. There is nothing Offitt could say that would be taken seriously by people against vaccines. And for the record, the ‘anti-vaxers’ have all been saying make your own choice don’t try to make mine. Hardly fear mongering. And please don’t quote the ‘herd immunity’ rubbish. It is estimated that less than 50% of the US population keeps FULL vaccinations up to date. That means that all of this talk about ‘herd immunity’ (if it really works, which I don’t believe it does) is moot anyway. There is no ‘herd immunity’ theory that confers protection below 50% coverage rates. Oddly, those people no longer protected by the temporary immunity conferred by vaccines are not dropping like flies from VPDs. Hmmmm. Go figure….

  219. Erwin Alber says:

    What vaccine-preventable diseases Kelly? I don’t know of any. The claim that vaccines prevent diseases is circulated by the idiots and the criminals who run the vaccination racket.

  220. What! Are you looney, Shannon? shame on your heartless ignorance!

  221. Elizabeth Bento says:

    Gary, of course the risk is implied if I am looking at the side effects. The risk is getting a VPD that will offer a lifetime immunity without needing boosters and the ‘contents and risks of those contents’ in the subsequent booster shots.
    I can treat measles:
    with ibuprophen, antibiotics are not needed. Keeping my child in a dim room and upping her Vitamin A intake and finding a good cartoon for her to watch.
    I can treat chicken pox similarly with oatmeal baths, calamine lotion and chicken noodle soup.
    I can treat the flu with fluids, rest, more rest and rest.
    Pertussis vaccine does NOT prevent pertussis. It simply suppresses the symptoms of pertussis. So a child can have pertussis and continue to spread it around b/c the signs of illness are not present. I would treat with fluids, rest, vaporizer, small meals to prevent vomiting, and washing hands often to prevent transmitting it.
    I could go on.. but I have a Scrabble game to play with my children.. LOL..

  222. Snoozie says:

    Yes, Lisa, the incidence of diseases goes up and down because that’s how diseases roll. A number of children will contract a disease, and then they will either die or emerge immune (and possibly disabled for life). Because there is a level of immunity, the incidence of the disease drops until more children without immunity (the new ones being born) come about. And then the incidence rises again. If ever you see a graph showing the incidence of a vaccine as a smooth line without the spikes up and down, you can be sure it is fraudulent.

  223. Gary says:

    “Correlation most certainly does not necessarily negate causation, and it is unacceptable for anyone to assume or say they know the answer – because it cannot be known – and on that basis unequivocally recommend vaccination.”
    The twist of logic here Sean is truly mind bending.
    – Correlation does not negate (I assume you mean disprove) causation
    – The answer cannot be known
    The first part is clearly true if linguistically tortured. Correlation supports causation. If there is no correlation then there can be no causation. A phenomena which causes another will be correlated by that causation. The logical dictum “Correlation does not equal causation” is in no way a suggestion that causation can be dismissed simply because the only known link is a temporal correlation. And I suspect very strongly that you will never find any scientist who will say that.
    The argument you are trying to fight against is the fact that while VAERS items sometimes have a temporal correlation to vaccines, this in and of itself does not prove a causative correlation. It does not disprove such a link, it only fails to prove it. That is why the CDC investigates every VAERS entry which is determined to be serious. They define serious as requiring hospitalization, indicating life long harm, or death. It is these further investigations which often disprove the causative link between the the vaccine and the adverse event.
    The VAERS is meant to capture any and all adverse events which anyone anywhere thinks MAY have been related to a vaccination. It is impossible for a child, parent, nurse, or even doctor to know for certain if the symptoms being observed are caused by the vaccine or not. The VAERS, therefore, asks all of them to submit said symptoms to the system. The idea is that if there is a true causative link, trends will show up in the collection of large numbers of similar adverse events. Such trends are used to achieve a post licensing safety monitoring of vaccines.
    See, Shawn, what you are trying to say is that you should have to right to refuse vaccination because you read some scary stuff on VAERS. You are in fact correct in this. You have the right to refuse vaccinations for whatever reason you like. What you do not have the right to do is claim that VAERS data proves things that it does not prove. Namely that vaccines have caused more deaths than are legitimately attributable to vaccines. This is simply not true.

  224. No! Lisa did not miss the point & you, Crotchfruit have rotten fruit & if you’re a chemist, you missed your calling as a foul mouthed stand up ham.

  225. Gary says:

    “Heartfelt stories from victims of vaccines, rational refutations of pro-vax propaganda”
    Except it is sometimes heartfelt stories and sometimes not so heart felt. And something of a dearth of rational refutations. Marsha’s continued promise of documents and continued failure to produce them, and your continued cherry picking and misreading of citations don’t really count.

  226. Snoozie says:

    Marsha, Nate is not the voice of reason. Nate is the voice of pure emotion. You have been shown reason and proof time and again. You could not tell the difference between a real piece of evidence and a parody piece from “The Onion.”

  227. Gary says:

    A difference does not mean totally without similar characteristics. Toxins exposure can occur through many different avenues. Ingestion of aluminum can indeed lead to increased blood levels of aluminum. Certainly not every molecule goes into the blood, but then again, children are exposed to a very great deal more aluminum this way than through vaccines.
    And if you don’t know the difference between small exposures and large ones….. 😉

  228. Snoozie says:

    Steve–Valid point about the citation. I had actually meant to include it but had hit “post” before I put it in there.
    Here you go: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

  229. Snoozie says:

    By the way, the statement I made was “Children will die” not “YOUR children will die.” My statement is true. The immunization rates in California dropped; ten infants are dead.

  230. The studies are fraudulent if they back vaccines, they are done & backed by the same foxes guarding the hen houses. It’s been proven & the massive amount of fact will be placed in this thread soon for all to see who are actually looking for truth. So stop pretending the science behind vaccines are anything besides fraud. The cover up has been exposed. If anyone wants to begin the research, look up, Faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them, to see the overwhelming & undeniable evidence.

  231. Snoozie says:

    Marsha–If you understand the difference between morbidity and mortality, you understand that, in fact, the incidence of disease was NOT in decline before vaccines.
    If the real facts are in the “archives of history,” why not cite them? You seem to have an aversion to providing any proof for what you say.

  232. Replace fruit with rot & there you have it. That was directed at Crotchfruit.

  233. Whittney says:

    I am a parent who got the pleasure of watching my child have a violent reaction to an vaccine. I know 3 of my nieces and nephews had life changing reactions to vaccines.
    “A life-changing event — one involving your children — will make any parent regret what they could’ve done.” or NOT DONE!

  234. Whittney says:

    Just for your information: I am not talking about autism, but reactions accepted and acknowledged by mainstream medicine. That is not an opinion on the validity of the autism argument, just a note so you know there are more cards than that one on the other side of the table. Medicine KNOWS vaccines harm children. They just figure it’s taking a few for the team and go on doing what they do, and not telling you the truth, or making you believe that it is irresponsible to weigh the facts differently than they do. No I am not willing to have another one of my children take one for the team!!!

  235. Mindy Johnson says:

    In the last 20 years the vaccine court, set up by the federal government, has paid out close to 2 BILLION dollars to families whose children were injured or killed by a vaccine. Many of today’s vaccines contain aluminum yet there are no studies to determine how much aluminum is safe to inject into infants or children. And lastly, in Chicago there is a family medical practice called Homefirst. Out of 35,000 unvaccinated children Homefirst claims to have virtually no autism, ADD, ADHD or asthma in their practice.
    I began researching vaccine safety and efficacy years before my children were born. I am very comfortable with my decision to not vaccinate my children based on the information I have. Just as another parent is equally passionate that their research and decision to vaccinate their children. I don’t think anyone here is going to change anyone’s views or opinion. It would be so great if we could debate this topic with a gentler tone and a little more respect for each other.

  236. Chris says:

    That is not a cite. Being an Army brat I know there is good medical services, plus some good research. If the statistic is true it would be written up. Please provide that documentation.

  237. Ingrid says:

    I am not Susan but I can answer your question – “how does all this evidence lead ones to believe that the immune system without the vaccination will prevent the disease?”
    Basically if you take the time to look at the evidence (ingredients, side effects, what they do to the human body…) you see that getting a vaccination is completely MESSING with your own natural immune system. It’s like taking this beautiful work of art (the human body’s immune system) and then tampering with it in very unnatural ways. If you don’t tamper with it, it works pretty well on its own. If you DO tamper with it, you open yourself up to a whole host of NEW diseases that you are less able to fend off because your beautiful immune system has been messed with by scientists with syringes.
    When one does their homework about vaccines, it’s not JUST about vaccines that you stop and learn about. You also spend a bit of time learning about the human body and how it works as well. So yes, it does make sense that when one becomes knowledgable about vaccines and their ingredients, you become more knowledgable about the human body. You have to in order to even understand what these side effects are exactly. Like you can learn that aluminum is an ingredient in vaccines, but that means nothing to the average person. You then have to go look up what aluminum does to the human body. You also look up what aluminum poisoning is. (And gosh – if you go do that research you’ll see it looks AWFULLY similar to the symptoms of autism…) And then you have to find out how much scientists think is “too much” aluminum to inject into a person’s body. And then you’ll read about how vaccines contain several orders of magnitude more aluminum than what the FDA itself says is “safe” for injectable medications… and so and and so forth.
    But again, this all is research around whether or not to inject all those weird ingredients found in vaccines. You can’t just learn what the ingredients are without also taking time to learn about the body and the immune system. This would make sense to you if you had bothered to research all the ingredients yourself, but since you haven’t it probably never occurred to you exactly how much you’d learn in the process of evaluating the safety of how we give vaccines in this country.

  238. Lisa says:

    I am with you, Whittney. Back in the day parents had chicken pox parties, etc. so they all got their child hood viruses over with. now the shots are promoted so moms don’t have to miss work. What a sad time for us. And you’re right. I don’t want to be on THAT TEAM.

  239. Elizabeth Bento says:

    And Gary.. I did not mention what websites, if any I ‘googled’ nor did you ask me which books I read or what on the CDC website swayed me to my decision .
    Weirdly you failed to mention how many of the studies that have been standard bearers for the ” Autism is not caused by vaccines” mantra.. any thoughts on Verstraten and the disclosure that he manipulated his study not once but 5 times until the outcomes showed little side effects. Not to mention he was employed by GKS at the same time. No conflict of interest there.. ?
    And now Thorsen the co-author of the lauded ‘Danish Studies’ that supposedly debunked the “Autism-Vaccine” link is being indicted on fraud charges.
    Wow… seems to me that all ‘evidence’ and the doctors who authored these evidential studies. (read: Drug Companies) seem to be lacking in character and have grossly misrepresented the truth of study.
    Regardless of the outcome, all I want is true double blind studies for safety, contraindications between vaccines, and the ability to make medical decisions for my child, not the state legislature.

  240. Ingrid says:

    And this is where you, Kelly, need to get a bit more educated about formaldehyde. (And chemicals!) Just because it occurs in nature doesn’t mean we should go around inhaling it and injecting it (especially into a newborn baby). Formaldehyde is a known carcinogen. The amount of naturally occurring formaldehyde in the human body is minuscule compared with what’s injected into your body via vaccines. You need more education on this topic and that’s not meant to be insulting, just … a fact. http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde

  241. percival says:

    Think a little harder there steve! Herd immunity is for EACH vaccine, not all the vaccines together! There might be only 50% of people who get all there vaccines, but for a given vaccine, rates are usually (hopefully) in the 90-95% range for herd immunity. Rates for the individual vaccines are easy to find! http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/imz-coverage.htm

  242. Laura says:

    Gary, I have investigated the numbers on the CDC site which contradicts itself but I will tell you that currently – if you want to attribute herd immunity fine – your chances of dying of one of these diseases is 1 in over 3,050,000. I used a CALCULATOR. 🙂 I will say I did not include the above mentioned disease but FYI – less then 10 deaths per year. Again, about the same as BUBONIC PLAGUE. OMG – run for the hills. As sad as this little girl’s death is – it is an isolated instance. Possibly 1 in 500 people infected with measles may have died at one point. Was that when the CDC’s own information conflicts on how many people actually got it yearly? The highest instance recorded was about 1 in 670 people GETTING IT. So that means IF the population is say, 107,000,000 which is what it approximately was at the time that means that there were 160,000,000 cases of measles and 1 in 500 of those died that would mean there were 320 deaths. (which the CDC reports 400-500 so maybe that is accurate?) That was THEN, not now and we are far from there not just because of vaccines – if at all – but because an increase in hygiene, better diet for the most part and antibiotics that treat infections that usually are what cause measles deaths. Your numbers don’t scare me LOL (nor should they scare you if you could DO MATH).
    There are “side-effects” worse than death. For a risk of 1 in over 3,050,000 we are mass vaccinatng and causing people to live with chronic conditions and illnesses in countless numbers. And yes, there are a lot of deaths. Over 150 from Gardasil last time I checked. At least 3000 deaths from SIDS. Not completely caused by vaccination but many are. The infant mortality rate is idiotic compared to that of other countries (specifically japan which was noted earlier) It ranks 4th in Infant mortality finding a sharp decrease after raising vaccination age. The US ranks 46th. That is inexcusable. The number of deaths caused directly by vaccines of course is another one of your anecdotal pieces of evidence. Just like a person who doesn’t die of Leukemia, but the infection caused by the lack of immune system caused by the supposed “treatment” of it.
    Anyhow, there are your numbers. And I have news for you – your numbers for people that die (and you thinking everyone who got measles is so blatantly not true! LMBO) is nothing compared to all these people who suffer their whole lives because of vaccines. That is slow horrible torture. MUCH WORSE. And one more thing – everyone that has had an MMR did get the measles – and their body reacted to it – OVER reacted to it and you suffered side effects from it – you just don’t know it.

  243. Laura says:

    I got all my info from that! LMBO – do the MATH people – they say it that way to scare you – the reality is less people died of these things than currently do from car accidents but we still DRIVE right? OMG – and to count those statistics for vaccine side effects accurate is idiotic! You two are a trip! LOL

  244. Ingrid says:

    Ok… so you slam her for giving an anecdote about having a VERY serious vaccine reaction – both her AND her daughter, and yet, this article, the one that started this whole discussion IS just anecdotal about one mom who didn’t vaccinate for a disease whose child died because of that. HELLOOOOOOOO….. People…
    One anecdote about one person who regrest NOT vaccinating. Countered by one anecdote of one person who totally regrets vaccinating – on two counts.
    When deciding whether or not to vaccinate it’s really evaluating what you think – based on studies, research, AND your own critical thinking on the matter – the relative risks are of vaccinating and having a reaction vs not vaccinating and getting said disease. For me, it took QUITE a lot of reading for me to conclude it is WAY riskier to inject those chemicals than it is to go up against these diseases. But it’s NOT at all obvious that this is the conclusion if you haven’t done any research or extended thinking about the subject. I have read just about EVERY single frickin’ study that’s been done on vaccines that I could find. I’ve read tons of the pros/cons of vaccinating. I’ve scoured the CDC website. I’ve looked at the % chances of getting all these diseases. I’ve looked at pretty much EVERYTHING I can get my hands on regarding this topic. And from all that data, my personal conclusion was to avoid vaccines, especially for small children and babies. But that was MY conclusion based on all of that reading. If you go and do all that reading and research and conclude differently, then great. But why don’t you first go do that and THEN come back and talk about things like “selection bias” and yadda yadda.
    Btw- as a demographic, those who don’t vaccinate are typically a lot more educated than the average person. (There is a study out there about that as well, yes…) So it’s not the stupid people who forgo vaccines. It’s the smart ones.

  245. Ingrid says:

    I love how pro-vax dogmatics just COMPLETELY dismiss even the *possibility* that vaccines can and have resulted in serious damage to the human body. If you seriously think side effects are all in people’s imagination, and there were “other causes” then WHY oh WHY has the gov’t set up a whole framework to deal with those who have been damaged by vaccines? Where they get actual $$ from those damages as determined by judges and a court system? Are each of those cases all fraudlent? EVERY SINGLE ONE? Exactly how far out on this limb of arrogance are you willing to go? Vaccines DO cause damage sometimes. If anything, the damage is UNDER reported because so many doctors have been brainwashed like you have been into thinking it can’t possibly be our precious vaccines causing the problems… when all you have to do is look at the frickin’ ingredients and realize that they very well could be – more often than not.

  246. Lisa says:

    i don’t find any veracity in the term “vaccine preventable.” It can’t be proven and no one is willing to prove it.

  247. Laura says:

    They do not delay ALL vaccines but the vaccination rate was severely decreased. The numbers of people with the diseases in Japan has always been higher and it could be that is is a racial component – however I don’t know of any study that notes the race of the individual outside of the country. After reviewing this data that was my hypothesis. Here is a link to the chart – take it for what you will considering it is on a vaccination liberation site LOL. http://www.vaclib.org/basic/japanusa.htm however you cannot dismiss the lower infant mortality rate which is easily proven.

  248. Ingrid says:

    Kelly is just a troll, out to get attention and a response out of us. How can you take someone seriously who insults a mom who has a seriously injured child?

  249. Snoozie says:

    If you had actually done your math, you would not be against vaccinating.
    You take the risk of driving each day? I presume you drive with your children in the car. Why in the world would you not take an infintesimally small risk of a reaction which carries with it a major benefit. The severe reactions to vaccines are so rare they cannot even positively be attributed to vaccines, but the deaths caused by infectious diseases are real, and they will become far more common if people believe your horrid math.

  250. Laura says:

    just because a study is “old” doesn’t mean it is outdated. Poison is poison no matter what decade or century it is LMBO – seriously these are the arguments you people have? Anything that even INFERS that vaccines cause harm should be investigated to the highest degree. PERIOD. Do that do that? No, they feed you a bunch of media generated CRAP composed by “experts” that you don’t know and who are paid by the companies that make the stupid vaccines. To buy this bullshit makes you into a total fool. Why don’t you read about the body and how it works, take a few math lessons and understand that most people are scared into taking these shots. No person wants their kid sick!! But if someone posed it to you like this “take this vaccine and your child won’t get HPV but they might have the slightest chance of dying or having seizures for the rest of their life or suffering from chronic stomach pain and recurrent pancreatitis” do you seriously think people would even CONSIDER it? If doctors had to give parents a disclaimer to each vaccine like the drug companies do and make them sign THAT instead of the form that states – basically that you are a bad parent putting your child and others at risk – I think there would be a lot more people actually considering your so-called “recommendations” in the way they should. My goodness! One great thing about these debates is I am more and more aware of the FACTS and the TRUTH and can laugh at total morons like some of you here who “think” you know so much LOL.

  251. dugmaze says:

    Gary, If people only lived into their forties and most children died before age five, then what would be the average life span?

  252. Ingrid says:

    I don’t know why you’d even need to cite this. Some states have autism rates of 1 in 67 kids.
    http://www.thoughtfulhouse.org/tech-labs/disabilities/autism-state-rankings-prevalence.php

  253. MamaLuna says:

    God didn’t create those things MAN did!

  254. Snoozie says:

    I have said nothing about homeopathy that is untrue. It has no active ingredients. It is “energy medicine.” It violates Avagadro’s number. These are not ad hominem attacks; they are facts. It’s theory could not be more different from vaccination if it tried since homeopathy is used by germ denialists and anti-vaxxers everywhere.
    Show me a study showing that homeopathy works better than placebo.

  255. Ingrid says:

    Show me a SINGLE study that compares autism outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Perhaps that wild goose chase will answer for you why all of the studies have failed at measuring any association. Eh hem… let me give you a hint – there has been NO CONTROL GROUP in any of those studies!
    For instance, let’s take this study that is often cited, the very large one done in Denmark about the MMR vaccine and autism: http://www.14studies.org/pdf/HG_2.pdf
    This study supposedly tests whether or not receiving the MMR vaccine causes autism. And yet, the “control” group has ALL the same vaccines as the experimental group, minus ONE (the MMR).
    This, to me, is the equivalent of asking if cigarettes might cause cancer, and then structuring a study as follows – the control group smokes 36 cigarrettes a day. The experimental group smokes 37. Then compare the outcomes. OH! Why look, both groups have the same rates of cancer! SO CLEARLY the results of this study show that smoking does NOT cause cancer. Right? Right?
    YES – if your theory is that it’s the MMR shot and the MMR shot ALONE that causes autism, then sure, this study debunks that (tho there are other issues with teh study too but then it will take me forever to finish this reply!) But if your theory is that vaccines – as a group – they way they’re given and how many are given – can negatively impact a developing baby’s brain…then this study tell us absolutely nothing about whether or not vaccines and whether or not they may be linked to autism.

  256. Selena says:

    Ingrid :
    Btw- as a demographic, those who don’t vaccinate are typically a lot more educated than the average person. (There is a study out there about that as well, yes…) So it’s not the stupid people who forgo vaccines. It’s the smart ones.

    It AIN’T so much the things we don’t know that get us into trouble. It’s the things we know that just ain’t so. Or, a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Better-educated people are unfortunately more likely to be acquainted with the junk ideas of Wakefield and others than are individuals with less education, and are also more likely to know moms who advocate for Wakefield’s ideas regarding their autistic children. Not exactly something to be proud of, when the science is so lopsidedly against the ideas that vaccines do more harm than good.

  257. ChrisKid says:

    Mindy, your relevant word in regard to Homefirst is ‘claims’. And only from the one doctor, not all of them associated with the practice. And then, of course, what he actually said was that he didn’t remember any, but he couldn’t be sure. And then he went on to add a few other possibilities, so what he ended up with was not really much more than, “Well, I think so, but I don’t know, and I don’t have any information about it, and who knows?” And after that, he set up a franchise from the Geiers to ‘treat’ autistic children with an off-label, never-approved, untested drug used for chemical castration. At much larger doses even than approved for adults, as I understand it. I can’t help but consider him to be a less than reliable source, and his information somewhat questionable.
    Lisa, parents used to do ‘chicken pox’ parties, although not as often as you might think. But that was only because there was no way to prevent the disease, so they tried to have a little more control of it, usually so all the kids in the family could have it at the same time. You know, so it would be easier and the mother/caregiver wouldn’t be stuck in the house for six weeks straight, as happened with my sister and her kids. I’m sorry you have such disdain for mothers who have to work, but losing several weeks (or even one) worth of income is a major issue for many families. I’ve never seen anyone promoting any vaccine for that reason, but it’s a very real consideration for more people than you’d think. I’m glad you don’t have to worry about income or ever losing your job, but some people do. Of course, it’s very much secondary to the fact of protecting a loved child from suffering and danger, but for you to express such a lack of empathy for those who aren’t as fortunate as you are, or for women who actually have the audacity to hold jobs while they have children, leaves me shaking my head.

  258. dugmaze says:

    “The Act was repealed in 1822, and the authority to regulate vaccines given to the states. This was the result of an 1821 outbreak of smallpox in North Carolina, which was traced to contaminated vaccine provided by Dr. John Smith while in the capacity of the federal agent charged with preserving and distributing genuine vaccine”
    The Vaccine Act of 1813
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Act_of_1813

  259. Nordica says:

    AnnPC – your children are not in any way an “acceptable loss.” I commend you for not vaccinating your son even though your doctors (shame on them!) and people like Kelly try to make you feel like something is wrong with you for wanting to keep those chemicals out of your child’s body. Sharp, mama.

  260. Snoozie says:

    Anti-vaxxer: “There are no studies showing vaccines are safe and effective.”
    Pro-vaxxer: “Here’s one.”
    Anti-vaxxer: “The title of that one just says effective. Not good enough.”
    Pro-vaxxer: “Well, actually if you read it you will see that they followed the subjects to see how they tolerated the vaccine, but fine. Here’s one showing safety.”
    Another pro-vaxxer: “Here’s another one.”
    Pro-vaxxer: “And another.”
    Another anti-vaxxer: “They didn’t follow those kids for long enough to satisfy my wild need to correlate any negative event in a child’s life to a medical intervention that took place years beforehand even if such a connection is completely scientifically unfeasible. So those studies are not good enough.”
    Marsha the anti-vaxxer: “Plus the studies were done by people I don’t like who have the actual resources and money to do such studies. That’s my assumption, anyhow, even though I didn’t actually look at the studies to see who conducted them and if they disclosed any of their financial ties.”
    Fine. Show me studies that they are unsafe and ineffective. You can’t prove science wrong by constantly calling foul. Prove it wrong with replicable science. If you claim the studies aren’t out there because no one wants to do them, ask yourselves why Mercola and Tenpenny don’t pony up some of their profits from their supplements to fund the studies that back up their assertions.

  261. Laura says:

    Very nicely said Mindy. There of course is also the reference to Amish people. I can’t help but laugh at the people that are trying to convince those of us that have decided not to vaccinate that we are wrong. We all take so much care in that decision and we all know the risks and benefits of it. I have to laugh because otherwise I might get angry 🙂 We may not change the opinion of those who are so rude to us but we may help someone who is lurking and learning. If it makes one person make a point to investigate and learn about vaccines then it is worth all the effort in typing this stuff. Healthy living is the most important point to make here – and not to believe people who are more interested in their bottom line than the health of our society.

  262. Ingrid says:

    Snoozie – have you not been paying attention! AUTISM rates are epidemic at this point! Yes, there are a lot of autistic kids out there.
    You have no reason to believe, other than your staunch support of vaccines, that those children would have been autistic “anyway.” Again, with the arrogant dismissiveness of pro-vaxers. You tell them X and they say “I just don’t believe…” without ANY reason.
    Anecdotes are what started this whole discussion. We read about this woman who lost her daughter to a vaccine preventable illness. THAT IS AN ANECDOTE. 🙂
    As for studies – show me a SINGLE study that compares children with no vaccines to children who follow the full vaccination schedule. Not a one has been done. So when we talk about “all these studies” … we might as well talk about “all these very poorly designed studies that were almost all funded by groups with a HUGE conflict of interest in showing that vaccines are safe.” Yes… all those studies support vaccines as safe, and they all have HUGE issues with how they were done. IF – you take the time to actually look into them and read them you’d see for yourself.

  263. Laura says:

    Holy Cow Selena – thank you SO much for proving how correct that study is. FYI – I don’t know much about Wakefield and decided to read what exactly he did and it is funny because I am willing to take a steep bet YOU don’t know what he did either – and that he wasn’t even against vaccines when all the started although I don’t know his view now – he was against the COMBO VACCINE of mumps, measles and rubella only. I have never read anything about him or by him until a few days ago and only so I could through that little bit of information in your (toothless?) face. This whole thing is becoming COMICAL! I hope they DO vaccinate all the people like you because it might just stop you from reproducing 😉 That is sort of their ultimate goal anyhow ROFL.

  264. Ingrid says:

    Exactly!

  265. Ingrid says:

    Exactly! This article is so ridiculous – she talks about how she’s not trying to fear monger with a scary anecdote, and yet, that’s exactly what she’s trying to do! Get people afraid to not vaccinate. Oh brother. The chances of your child dying of a vaccine preventable disease (in the US, ie) is so incredibly slim it’s like the chances of getting hit by lightening (which does happen.) There are WAY more anecdotes of people dying FROM vaccines themselves. Just go read the VAERS database!
    People – it’s a risk either way. You have to do the research to determine which path is LESS risky. Yes, you can die from getting a vaccine preventable disease. And yes, you can also die from getting a vaccine. Go research the chances of both those scenarios!

  266. Ingrid says:

    Go read the VAERS database and then tell everyone there’s no reason to be afraid of vaccines. OH… right… next you’ll tell me all those people who suffered from vaccine injuries (including death) just imagined it… I forgot!

  267. Snoozie says:

    Thanks for agreeing, Ingrid.

  268. Elisabeth says:

    Kelly :
    Ann, I an sorry for your misfortune and those around you. There is strong evidence that suggests vaccines did not cause any of the injuries you mentioned. You are really stuck though with your son. If the attenuated varicella virus in the vaccine damaged his sister and you fear he is genetically predisposed, then you definitely do not want him to get wild varicella. I guess you can only hope that those around you decide to vaccinate for chicken pox so your son can benefit from herd immunity. Good luck to you. I hope your son doesn’t get sick because someone else fell for anti-vax fear-mongering or would that just be karma?

    Wow, have to LOVE the “karma” you’ll get for wishing ill on someone else’s child!
    There is a huge difference in contracting a disease normally and being injected with an engineered version of that disease. With the injection, you bypass all of the normal routes of mediation such as the mucous membranes and place the substance directly into the body. In addition, the disease, on its own, does not come with a combination of toxic chemicals designed to inflame the immune system into a heightened response.
    We inject our children with substances specifically designed to cause the immune system to respond in an exaggerated manner… and then wonder at the increase in auto-immune disorders caused by an immune system on constant red alert… the increases in juvenile diabetes, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, asthma, allergies, eczema, lupus, etc., among many others, is a direct result.

  269. Laura says:

    Chriskid – you are too funny. Your “vaccinated” child better keep up on their vaccines as an adult because they WILL NOT be immune as an adult and could get chicken pox with much worse consequences (an a lot of missed work) And another thing – there is absolutely NO NEED for a two parent working household. You are blinded by your need to be a “have” and not a “have not” Many people live modestly so that they not only can take care of their children as infants but to continue to do so – many even *gasp* homeschooling! OMG! But they of course are rich and can afford it (sure right LOL) Funny how much you presume. May people sacrifice a good amount to stay home with their children and we all have our opinions. I gave up my career to have my children. I work from home from time to time but at one point I decided to – as a single mom – quit my job and work from home. I was a “have not” but you know what? I had my DAUGHTER! And I made more money that way than working for some jerk. At the end of your life I hope you are happy with the decision you are making. Where there is a will, there is a way! (and when I say single mom my daughter had no father at all- no weekends, no child support, nothing!)

  270. ChrisKid says:

    Laura, I think you mean IMPLIES there, not infers. But no matter, really. It’s on a level with the rest of your post.
    Poison might be poison no matter the decade or century, but if the information in the study is not based on current information it doesn’t hold up. Are you trying to say that no research is ever outdated? Poison might be poison no matter the century, but we eat tomatoes now. We no longer believe they will kill us. Poison might be poison no matter the decade, but we don’t clean our clothes with petroleum products now. We have better, safer things to use. I know those are extreme examples, but to even imply that the age of research doesn’t matter demonstrates a staggering lack of understanding of how science works. Did you beer or two to help build up your mild supply while breastfeeding? Do you avoid the refrigerator while you have your period so you don’t curdle the milk? Even with things that might always be poison that doesn’t mean they can’t ever be used for anything. We do that all the time, with lots of things you use regularly. It’s just that the amounts are small enough to be safe. One more basic thing you have to understand before you can really discuss these things rationally. Whether things are ‘poison’ or not often/usually/almost always depends on the amount of the substance being used.
    “should be investigated to the highest degree” Yep. And that’s why there have been so many, many studies done on the (spurious) vaccine/autism connection, and why there’s surveillance of drugs (including vaccines) after licensing, notwithstanding all the years of testing done before licensing.
    If you want to tell me that the HPV vaccine will keep my children from getting HPV, and cervical cancer (or anal or penile cancer) but there is some chance it will cause them some other adverse condition, I’m going to ask you what the odds are of either outcome. And when you tell me, as you will if you’re honest, that the odds of the other adverse conditions are millions of times less than the chances of them getting cancer if they aren’t vaccinated? I’ll say, “Give them the shots.”
    (Disclaimer: my children will be making this decision on their own, since they’re adults now, but I’ve advised them to do it.)

  271. Lisa says:

    ChrisKid, most people have paid sick time for their families. You say I have disdain for mothers who work? HA HA HA HA…wow this is glorious! Guess what , i’m self employed. I don’t get paid at all if i stay home, I don’t know where you live but that was the ad campaign in New York State for varacella vaccine. These ads are just as scummy as the liptor and viagra ads.
    Just to let you know I’ve been exposed to chicken pox when my sibs had it and then 10 years later when my other sib had it and numerous times since then. I’m not afraid. That’s half the battle. People don’t learn how the body works. It’s late, I’ve gotta go to bed. Enough.

  272. Nordica says:

    This broke my heart, Shelli. I wish that there were an answer for you and your young son. I have never heard of such a young person trying to commit suicide. Thank you for speaking up. The people who are reading this who are still “on the fence” would do well to consider the lasting effects a vaccine can have on a child who reacts strongly, as opposed to Kelly’s kids who did “just fine.” If her child had to face life with all the problems your son does, we probably wouldn’t be hearing from her on a forum like this. She’d probably be way too busy consoling him and trying to find a way to make his life less miserable. Or, maybe she wouldn’t even acknowledge that the vaccine was the cause of all his trauma and continue to vaccinate him until he was dead from reactions. All to prevent some relatively mild chicken pox and such!!! What a scam we find ourselves up against.

  273. Snoozie says:

    Ingrid, I’ll provide you the link to the studies that fail to show an association between autism and vaccines. I’m sure you will find a reason to dismiss those, but scientifically literate folks will understand that the causal connection just isn’t there.
    http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
    Here is an on-point epidemiological study of populations of vaccinated and unvaccinated children showing no difference between autism rates of the two groups:
    http://tinyurl.com/5omq4u
    And here is a discussion of the results of a Generation Rescue phone survey that ALSO shows difference in the rates of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated children.
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/fun_with_phone_surveys.php
    Sometimes, Ingrid, you have to be careful what you ask for.

  274. Ingrid says:

    I am so sorry to hear of what a painful situation you are in. I can feel your pain in your post. Mothers do their very best given what we know at the time and no mom can fully protect her child no matter what she does. Do not beat yourself up, you did nothing wrong. There are risks around every single corner, and whether one of those many risks “gets” to your child or not is random. Do not take the blame for this. Lots of children have vaccines and are OK. May you just continue to grow as a spirit from all you have learned and experienced, you have had a challenging life. Sending you lots of love and peace tonight.

  275. Lisa says:

    I’m with you, Laura, we can help others who are curious. No chemical shot will replace healthy living.

  276. ChrisKid says:

    Laura, did you read anything else about him? (Not that I believe that you didn’t know before.)Or did you just rely on his defenders for information?
    Did you read the part that said he was a complete fraud, and fabricated his study results? Did you read the part that said that, even if he hadn’t, the results he got have never been replicated, and are wrong? Did you read the part where he was paid for the results he got? Oh, and did you read the part about his results being totally incorrect and never replicated?
    Can you tell us what you find so funny about using children to further your own fortune, and then lying about it?
    Oh, and did you read the part where his results were incorrect anyway?

  277. Snoozie says:

    My favorite story about the VAERS database is the doctor who reported the flu vaccine caused him to turn into the Incredible Hulk.

  278. Snoozie says:

    Checking out Lisa’s site, I realize that she sells homeopathy. According to Marsha’s assessment of vested interests, she cannot be at all trusted to make any sort of assessment of homeopathy.

  279. Ingrid says:

    Thimersol is only one of the several neurologically toxic substances in vaccines. It may actually be the aluminum in vaccines that is also causing the problem. Most people don’t talk about aluminum, but it too causes brain damage in larger amounts. The question is – how much is too much? And also – how much can a baby’s developing body and brain handle (especially before the blood brain barrier has been established)?

  280. Ingrid says:

    Gary – show us a single study that compares children with no vaccines to children with the full vaccine schedule. *Then* you can talk about how studies have shown there is no link. Otherwise you’re talking about very poorly designed studies with NO true control group.

  281. Ingrid says:

    Love how you’re so exactly to the point! If we weren’t (as a culture) so brainwashed into thinking vaccines are good for us, and we just looked at them for what they ARE, no one in their right mind would put a needle-ful of that crap near a baby’s soft skin.
    Do your research. Most people who do end up not vaccinating, and I think that alone says something…

  282. kimsense says:

    just exactly as i thought…gary has other arguments, but not against mine.

  283. ChrisKid says:

    Oh, and Lisa, “Funny how much you presume.” Too funny, given the several totally wrong assumptions in your post. All three of my children had chicken pox. The vaccine was not available for them. Why would you assume you know otherwise? And while you’re making such a big deal about me wanting to be a ‘have’ and getting all self-righteous about this:
    “May people sacrifice a good amount to stay home with their children and we all have our opinions. I gave up my career to have my children. I work from home from time to time but at one point I decided to – as a single mom – quit my job and work from home. I was a “have not” but you know what? I had my DAUGHTER!…At the end of your life I hope you are happy with the decision you are making. Where there is a will, there is a way!” I have to wonder what decision you hope I’m happy with. The one where I stayed home with my children? The one where I sacrificed things I wanted or would have liked to have to stay with them, because you know, I had my CHILDREN!? Is that the decision you want me to be happy with, or did you ASSume I had done something else.
    As for your other unsupported assertions, that *most* people have paid sick leave for their families, you’re sadly mistaken. Or that anyone can get by on one income. Sorry, wrong again. And the judgemental attitude toward women who have the audacity to actually want to hold a paying job is unbelievable.
    Of course, I’m a little amused by your contempt for those who want to be ‘haves’ when you follow it up by saying that your decision to work from home made you more money than you could have otherwise. Who knows what you would have done if it hadn’t? There might be a way where there’s a will, but the fact is, you never really tested that.

  284. James Mandaro says:

    Perhaps some peer-reviewed medical literature on the adverse effects of various vaccines will add some balance to this obviously slanted pro-vaccination piece http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/vaccine-research

  285. Laura says:

    Granted I made a couple typos but Infer is the correct word. To say vaccines have been studied is ridiculous. Any person who “is being honest” can see that there is NO WAY they can know at this point what the generation effects of vaccination are – but there are plenty of even more immediate and easily discovered studies that haven’t been done. The HPV vaccine is such an enormous joke – I use that one as an illustration because it is SO idiotic. Even in the wording of the advertisement they say “may prevent” {strains of HPV} that “may” cause cancer. Regular health screens have a bigger chance and vaccination does not insure you won’t get cancer so the regular checks are needed ANYHOW – perfect for the health care companies. I would suggest you watch some of the YouTube videos mothers of DEAD YOUNG GIRLS have posted – I am sure they would have taken the possibility over cancer any day. But you won’t have to live with guilt either way because you won’t be deciding. Such a shame you have shown that FEAR is the basis for vaccination and not rational thought. I am sure they have researched years the effects of a vaccine for newly emergent flu’s each year… if that is the case then I would ask the question “How did they know what flu would be out, years ago?” Hmmmm. I am so rolling my eyes. Maybe I need a beer RIGHT NOW. That way I would stop caring about trying to help people use their brains instead of destroying them one shot at a time.

  286. ChrisKid says:

    Are you seriously saying that mucous membranes are not ‘in the body’?
    Do you have anything to indicate that, first, there is a real increase in all the disorders you mention, and second, that they can be or have been directly caused by vaccines? You do realize that vaccines have been around for much longer than you’ve been alive, right? And the antigen load in the older ones was much higher than the total now? So why weren’t all those things happening then? If the stress on the immune system is the cause of the supposed increase in auto-immune disorders, why didn’t it happen a lot sooner?
    And while you’re at it, you might want to consider the effect of the actual disease on the immune system. That’s not exactly a relaxing day at the spa.

  287. Kat says:

    Crotch needs to stop reading political blogs and articles that, likely without his awareness, have led him to BELIEVE in some ill-fated things.

  288. Ingrid says:

    Gary, your arrogance is overwhelming. She didn’t compile a simple list of side effects in over 400 hours of reading. Good god. Clearly hers was an informed decision with that much reading and research.
    You don’t have to agree with her conclusion, but you shouldn’t say she didn’t make an informed decision. That is just being arrogant that because her conclusion about vaccines is different from yours, then she must not have thought things through.
    I did the exact same kind of research she did and trust me, you look at EVERYTHING when you’re in this mode. Including the possible complications from getting said diseases and the chances of catching said diseases as well.
    When you DO the actual research, at least for me, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that vaccines are NOT what they are advertised to be. They are not safe nor are they preventing anything that you are very likely to have a serious complications from. The risks do not outweigh the rewards.

  289. Laura says:

    ChrisKid :
    Laura, did you read anything else about him? (Not that I believe that you didn’t know before.)Or did you just rely on his defenders for information?
    Did you read the part that said he was a complete fraud, and fabricated his study results? Did you read the part that said that, even if he hadn’t, the results he got have never been replicated, and are wrong? Did you read the part where he was paid for the results he got? Oh, and did you read the part about his results being totally incorrect and never replicated?
    Can you tell us what you find so funny about using children to further your own fortune, and then lying about it?
    Oh, and did you read the part where his results were incorrect anyway?

    I read that part too – but what is funny is the guy that said all that was true also said plenty of things that were blatantly not true. Bottom line is who knows or cares because I didn’t and don’t and personally have no clue what is true or not so who cares? I did not get any information from him nor did I read anything about him at all until this past week. I did think it fishy a while ago to see a study he did discreditted in that manner but I didn’t really know much about him or his theory or derive any of my feelings from his findings. I also know very little about Jennifer McCarthy and in fact looked her up on Wikipedia because all I knew is she was in that movie, Santa baby, was married to Jim Carey (which I guess she wasn’t or isn’t? Who cares) and that she has an autistic son she claimed she cured. As far as whether her son got autism from the shot I don’t know. I know my friend Michelle’s son did – saw it HAPPEN. That is real. The rest is all whatever. I suffered vaccine injury – real. My daughter did – real. I don’t care about these people and my opinion are based on REALITY. Thanks for trying to be smart though LOL. Why would I LIE on a site like this? ROFLMBO. Sorry but it is pathetic.

  290. Ingrid says:

    I agree – both sides of this debate are totally in alignment in that they want to protect children. I think the only way to bridge the gap is to do more studies until one of these sides is “satisfied” with the results. I’ve done a ton of research myself, but I am frustrated that no one has done a significant comparison of unvax’d to vax’d kids.
    By now we have enough of us who forgo vaccines (and the govt keeps track of this too…) that we should be able to do a retrospective study with significant enough numbers on each side. If I saw lots of studies comparing vax’d to unvax’d kids that showed NO differences in autism rates or other health issues, then I do feel I could be persuaded to vaccinate my child. But to date, there hasn’t been a single study done of that kind. Not yet at least.

  291. ChrisKid says:

    Chronic arthritis adverse reactions following adult rubella vaccination were primarily reported in females (female/male ratio = 3.0), at about 45 years-old, and at a mean onset time of 10-11 days following vaccination. Chronic arthritis adverse reactions following adult hepatitis B vaccination were also primarily reported in females(female/male ratio = 3.5), at about 33 years-old, and with a mean onset time of 16 days following vaccination.
    That’s quoting the first study on your list, about adult rubella vaccination. So how come it says “Study Type: Animal Study? And where is the conclusion section? Did you notice who wrote the abstract? You need some reputable sources, instead of this obviously biased website.

  292. Laura says:

    Oh and Chriskid – if seeing my child vomit for over a month and stop eating completely because of it and losing over 3 pounds at the age of one while suffering kidney damage and a year of chronic bruising isn’t reason to be “using other children to further my fortune” well, I don’t know what is. And if I WAS doing that do you think I would be trying to make sure people are making a SOUND decision about vaccination? I know that if I knew THEN what I know NOW, even without the vaccine injury, I would have never ever vaccinated her. I see a marked difference in the intelligence, emotional control and health of my unvaccinated child it is remarkable. Do I worry about him getting these things – of course I do. But I know that he is much healthier and happier and isn’t life only life when one is able to be happy? I am done for the night. Good luck with your life.

  293. Ingrid says:

    Gary – I beseeech you. Go read up on the many and varied symptoms of mercury/heavy metal poisoning. And then go read up on the many and varied symptoms of autism. There is a HUGE overlap. Including bizarre ones like head banging and spinning around in circles. Given that autism is diagnosed via SYMPTOMS, it is not at all far fetched that people, including doctors, are confusing the two in many (tho probably not all) cases of autism. Autism is a spectrum disorder.

  294. Laura says:

    ok one more thing – tell that to my neighbor who had to drive her 4 year old to therapy after therapy after getting JA. You just think you have the answer for everything. Also, let me introduce you to a friend of mine: Ian – make sure you look at all the pictures and then think about what you would say to those parents. Glad it wasn’t YOUR son. http://www.autisable.com/713411828/ians-voice/

  295. Ingrid says:

    I second what Steve said.
    It is your opinion that it is a bigger risk to not vaccinate. Go do your research and come back to us.

  296. Ingrid says:

    Shannon, you are totally ignorant about autism. Go away and leave these parents alone.

  297. Kat says:

    Snoozie, have you read any of the nearly 300 posts?
    Just take a look at the above posts by Kelly and the lovely-named Crotchfruit. I think civility has been quite lost there.

  298. ChrisKid says:

    So what you’re saying is that you said you read about something that would be relevant, but you don’t care what it says because the only thing you know is your own personal experience.
    “the guy that said all that was true also said plenty of things that were blatantly not true.”
    The guy? You mean the General Medical Council of the UK? That ‘guy’? Or ten of the other researchers who were involved in the study, but who he didn’t tell about his conflicts of interest? That ‘guy’? Or were you talking about the award-winning journalist who wrote the expose that appeared well after his license was yanked and well after the prestigious research journal retracted the study they had published?
    Can you tell us about some of those blatant lies you claim were written? And can you explain how you know they are blatant lies when you admitted that you neither know nor care about it that much?
    That’s okay. All you need is your personal experience to tell you everything you need to know.

  299. Ingrid says:

    So formaldehyde is perfectly safe, eh? Tell that to the CDC….guess they’re totally wasting their time worrying about those “toxins.”
    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/news/displaynews.asp?PRid=2411
    (I seriously cannot believe you’re an actual chemist if you put toxins in quotes when talking about formaldehyde….every chemist knows that it IS toxic. Geesh)

  300. Kat says:

    Not all variables have been considered in the research to date Gary, but you know that.

  301. Kat says:

    Even CHOP (to which this site has a connection) states in one of their immunization pamphlets Snoozie, for instance, that aluminum accumulates in the lungs, brains, and bones.
    And to be clear, it says, “Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters
    the bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food
    is absorbed through the intestines into the blood.”

  302. Ingrid says:

    What Faithmom is asking for a single study that shows that giving a developing infant 36 shots during their development is a safe practice.
    When we were children (those of us over 30 here) we got about 8-9 shots as a baby/toddler. And we never received any AT birth. Nor did our pregnant mother receive them while we were in utero. Now all that’s changed. The moms get shots, the 1 day old babies get shots, and we give them 36 shots instead of just 8 or 9.
    So show us even just one study that shows that it is safe to have all these vaccines during infancy.
    If you think it really doesn’t matter – then consider for a moment… what if they upped the number of vaccines to 100,000 in infancy. Would it matter then to test whether or not receiving 100,000 shots in infancy caused any adverse reactions. Heck, just that much liquid being injected into a body is bound to have SOME negative effect even if it were merely water!
    Consider it this way… if you drink 1 beer and a scientist tests whether or not you can walk after that beer and they determine that YES you most certainly can… does that mean you can then sit down and drink 36 of them and still be able to walk a straight line? How about drive a car? Or talk?
    Or should the scientist ALSO be testing for whether or not having subsequent beers has a cummulative effect on the individual such that the more you have, the worse off you are… and of course different people have different “limits” on when those negative effects appear.
    This kind of inquiry is what hasn’t been done with regards to vaccines. Each vaccine goes through it’s short term safety testing and gets approved with a list of possible side effects, etc. Then it gets added to the schedule. But along the way, no one has tested whether or not THE SCHEDULE itself is healthy or not for a child.
    Show use one study that shows this is this case.

  303. Kat says:

    “Regardless of the outcome, all I want is true double blind studies for safety, contraindications between vaccines, and the ability to make medical decisions for my child, not the state legislature.” Exactly Elizabeth! And I am with you sister. I am also an educated woman and quite capable of sifting through the muck to get to the sensible information.

  304. Ingrid says:

    I’m sure you’re heard the saying “when you’ve met one autistic child, you’ve met one autistic child.” Your experience of your autistic child being healthy and happy is not the same as many others who have autistic children. So to act like it’s “no big deal” is to dismiss the very real harsh realities other families are dealing with. Yes, in some lucky cases, the autism diagnosis is not so devastating.
    Given how broad a description autism is for such varying levels of severity, it is probably very likely that we are actually dealing with different disorders, but haven’t come up with names for them all. And they can have different causes. Vaccines may indeed cause some forms of autism (…for it is arrogant of you to dismiss the experiences of thousands of parents…) and it is certainly true that autism is caused by other factors as well. Your child indeed may not have been vaccine injured. But that doesn’t mean another child wasn’t. Who are you to speak for other parents experiences? Really.

  305. Kat says:

    What we say next? People shouldn’t sell fruit trees, lest they try to earn a living contributing to healthy growing of our food?
    Snoozie, when did you train in homeopathy and come to this negative conclusion?

  306. Ingrid says:

    You lost me when you started to quote Dr. Paul Offit who has a HUGE conflict of interest in talking about vaccine safety. He has made (and continues to make) millions off of vaccine sales. He is not to be trusted – his conflict of interest is WAYYY too high.

  307. Ingrid says:

    Really I’ve been horrified by the comments made towards parents whose children have suffered vaccine injuries. One commenter accused the mother of abusing her child! Are you sure you’re not mistaking the arrogant insults the pro-vaxers are launching at people trying to just share that there’s another side to this story?

  308. Snoozie :Checking out Lisa’s site, I realize that she sells homeopathy. According to Marsha’s assessment of vested interests, she cannot be at all trusted to make any sort of assessment of homeopathy.

    So, snoozie, you even deny a person making an honest living with something they love & believe a good thing?
    You beLIEve in vaccines but not homeopathy which has similarities?
    Oh, I forgot.
    Homeopathy cuts into the profit of those against integrated medicine.
    Even if homeopathy never really helped anyone, which it has, it hasn’t done harm & killed as vaccines, bad drugs & other toxins let loose on us by criminals have.
    The FDA & other agencies are complicit, too. We trusted them with our well being & they condoned the crimes of these criminals who get filthy rich from on the blood money of children & diseased adults who have suffered so, many going to early graves.
    These barbaric practices are soon to be a thing of the past.

  309. Mandy says:

    1. WHO THE HECK NAMES LISTS THEMSELVES AS CROTCHFRUIT?!!! I am sorry but NO one can possibly take you seriously with that name…get a new one.
    2. I dont have much to add here, except when it comes down to herd immunity, I am sorry BS! Herd immunity simply cannot be mimicked using the concept of vaccinating everyone. Even if it could, I WILL not put my child at risk for the HERD…selfish…maybe…but I am sorry, my dear children come before yours in my book. I will compromise their health for the HERD. Not gonna happen EVER.
    3. I respect parents who do not vaccinate and those that do, however I am absolutely appalled at the attacks on the mothers of children who have suffered serious reactions. Have some respect!

  310. Mandy says:

    Ugh, sorry for the typos- it is soo late, I am off to bed!

  311. vaccinating and vaccinated says:

    Vaccination works. It prevents diseases and prevents them spreading. Herd immunity is real. Vaccination has very, very small risks, as does any medical procedure. Not vaccinating carries higher risks. These are not difficult assessments to make, unless you spend too much time looking for scary stories to confirm your belief that vaccination is scary.
    Also, back to the first commentor, if human immune systems are so innately great and self healing, where did the epidemics that killed millions of children before vaccines were introduced come from? How did they bypass nature’s wonderful system? Maybe they were all part of God’s plan.

  312. Marsha & Ingrid, consider those comments boomeranged right back at you.
    Marsha, heartless are those who come into a post about parents whose children have died to not only disparage those parents, but convince other parents that a child with autism is damaged goods — who can only consider the perspectives of parents who “lost” the child they wanted, rather than about the children they have, and who need all our energies to support them.
    Ingrid, I recommend using Google or clicking my name before commenting.

  313. Michele says:

    Yeah for me being a good Mum! I chose to vaccinate…………………….
    and wish I didn’t…

  314. Steve, you and Marsha M. are this site’s resident anti-vaccination movement trolls. Any regular reader has watched you two churn endless reams of misinformation — misinformation that takes all of two internet seconds to debunk — and knows not to take you seriously. The only reason anyone engages you at all is due to unfamiliarity, or due to concern that new readers might not know of your agendas.

  315. Lisa :As i said, the chemcial soup of metals, diseased cells and mutated proteins are injected into the blood stream bypassing the immune system of the gut. Eating food out of a can and breastfeeding are nothing like a shot of chemicals into the arm.

    Exactly!

  316. Shannon Des Roches Rosa :Steve, you and Marsha M. are this site’s resident anti-vaccination movement trolls. Any regular reader has watched you two churn endless reams of misinformation — misinformation that takes all of two internet seconds to debunk — and knows not to take you seriously. The only reason anyone engages you at all is due to unfamiliarity, or due to concern that new readers might not know of your agendas.

    LOL. The regular readers are wrong, deceptive & in many cases down right mean spirited. The new readers is why we’re here so shills for those with vested interests & those they have duped won’t be able to trick those new readers as you try so hard to do. Thinking people know who has the agenda of ill will here & who are the sincere trying to bring children in from harm’s way.

  317. I’ve heard those stats are closer to 1 in 100 & 1 in 60 for boys because they are more susceptible, ausaec.

  318. Ingrid, Dr. Offit gave up his profit from the sales of the Rotavirus vaccine years ago. Best to research before commenting.
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/01/paul-offit-responds-to-mark-blaxill
    If you write that Paul Offit – a vaccine researcher and expert – has a conflict of interest in talking about the benefits of vaccines, then you might as well malign any doctor who promotes the benefits of their area of expertise.

  319. And that’s why we oppose the deception. For those silently watching & taking in both sides. That’s our agenda.

  320. Kat says:

    “The logical dictum “Correlation does not equal causation” is in no way a suggestion that causation can be dismissed simply because the only known link is a temporal correlation. And I suspect very strongly that you will never find any scientist who will say that.”
    But, you will hear it on social media linked to Shot of Prevention! Anyone who wishes can take a longer look at posts here and on their fb page.

  321. Hey, selena. Haven’t you heard the good doctor, Wakefield, was vindicated?
    Yep! Brian was Lyin. I’m going to show you the facts to this matter so keep your eyes open.
    It will take 5 or 6 hours to review the investigation so get some rest.
    The science you mention will be revealed as fraud, too. Undeniable fraud. A whole lot of it.
    There’s more, too. Proof of the great harm vaccines are responsible for.
    Massive proof on all counts. Watch for it all & learn the truth.

  322. A. Brimhall says:

    Kelly,
    My daughter died due to an allergic reation to Gardasil. Can you explain that? I’m just curious.

  323. A. Brimhall says:

    Kelly,
    You should invest some time in obtaining a higher education.

  324. LOL. You really spent a lot of time looking at what James sent, huh? 14 minutes for you to come up with that. As I said. LOL.
    Vaccines cause all kinds of problems. Including what you copied & criticized as if you knew what you were talking about. So what is your point?
    My grandchildren don’t have autism. They are vaccine damaged. I wonder if I’d find the many conditions from reactions we suffer in those studies. I bet I would.

  325. OMG. I have seen pitiful pictures of baby Ian & almost couldn’t open the link. God Bless & comfort his parents. This is so sad & unnecessary.

  326. Hi Laura. I’m so sorry you, too, have had to see your precious little one suffer. I saw my Grandbabies suffer, too. We we’re luckier than most as our girls have gotten better through the years, well the oldest has. The youngest is still struggling to regain her health. Gut problems, mostly, but our little one has other conditions, too. Her Momma was stuck in that herd mentality & even though she was injured as a baby & didn’t walk or talk almost three years behind average milestones, she had her vaccinated, anyway, just before school began this season. She’s very sorry now. In fact, she’s terrified because we had warned her, my son & I & she wouldn’t listen & she knows we’re very angry. My son has shared custody & she promised no more vaccines & then snuck her off & ruined her health after all else she had been through. I just hope up the road there’s no other problems in store as many have succumbed to.
    The recovery where she caught up with those of her age was replaced with rashes, headaches, vomiting, congestion & fever’s. She’s always sick….Geeeez, I hate that herd mentality.
    Thank you for helping warn others to save children from harm, Laura. We’re lucky to have so many like you willing to speak out.

  327. Hello again, Laura. Speaking of Wakefield.
    I hope you’ve had a good nights sleep & are ready to watch chriskid eat crow? He thinks he knows about the good Dr. Wakefield but he’s been listening to the defenders of deception & parroting what he’s been fed.
    I almost missed this post of his if not for you, Laura. I promised snoozie when she was spreading dis-information about Wakefield like chriskid is, that she’d be eating crow, too.
    I will soon be posting the rock solid proof that cleared Dr. Wakefield’s good name. I know he was stripped, unfairly & criminally of his license but to me he remains a doctor.
    Andrew Wakefield was framed in an orchestrated witch hunt & smeared by media as they were instructed to do but not a word on Poul Thorsen who ran off with the CDC’s research money & was just indicted. He was affiliated with the Danish studies that claimed no link between vaccines & injury. Thorsen is a zero & Wakefield is a hero. He knew he was sacrificing his career but loved children more than life.
    Here’s what another good doctor & friend had to say;
    “During the past 25 years I’ve seen doctors who tell the truth about vaccine risks be viciously attacked by government and industry. From the moment Wakefield stood his ground, I knew he would make history but pay a terrible price for it.”
    Dr. F.E. Yazbak, MD, FAAP, Pediatric Infectious Disease Specialist

  328. Gary says:

    I’m sorry, Ingrid, but you are simply wrong. There have been control groups, you simply don’t accept them as such. You are stereotypically anti vax whining about the difficulty of comparing a large group of unvaccinated children whith a large group of vaccinated children. But that is not the only way to get some part of the answer.
    IF vaccines cause even a little autism, then looking at delayed vaccinations should give some indication of that. If vaccinating in the early months of a child’s life imposes a larger risk of autism, then we should be able to measure this by looking at well matched groups of kids who get vaccines according to the schedule and those who are delayed significantly. But such studies have been done and NO relation has been found. Getting the vaccines early or late does not change the time in life that these kids are diagnosed with autism. Can you explain how the vaccines could be causing significant numbers of autism in the face of that data?
    BTW, I don’t think you linked to the right study. The one you linked to did not look are MMR, it looked at thimerosal. And it found “This study investigated if the discontinuation of
    thimerosal-containing vaccines aralleled a decrease in the occurrence of autism. The incidence of autism remained fairly constant during the period of use of
    thimerosal in Denmark, and the rise in incidence beginning in 1991 continued even in the group of children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal.”
    Allow me to suggest a problem with your smoking analogy. In such a study, we would have found a higher risk of lung cancer with the 37 cigarettes group. Smoking more cigarettes each day increases your risk of cancer. In fact precisely this sort of studies were done showing that cigerrettes cause more disease. Here is a small example:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco
    “According to a study of 1,900 male cadets after the 1968 Hong Kong A2 influenza epidemic at a South Carolina military academy, compared with nonsmokers heavy smokers (more than 20 cigarettes per day), had 21% more illnesses and 20% more bed rest, light smokers (less than 20 cigarettes per day) had 10% more illnesses and 7% more bed rest.”
    I’m sorry, Ingrid, but you simply incorrect. The studies which have been done would have detected an effect from vaccines of even a very small number or extra autistic diagnoses. They found no such link.
    http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

  329. Then this is sure to bring the deniars of truth out in a frenzy screaming foul, like it did at Cristine Vara’s last blog, because Andrew Wakefild’s work was replicated.
    “In the years after his initial controvers­ial finding, linking the MMR vaccine to Crohn’s disease and autism, he published another 19 papers on the vaccine-in­duced disorder.
    All were peer reviewed. However, strangely enough, none of these 19 papers are ever discussed in the media. The only study that keeps seeing the light of day is the original study from 1998, along with the original questions about conflicts of interest, which he explains in great detail in this interview.
    This is very interestin­g indeed, because not only has he continued his own studies, but since then, a large number of replicatio­n studies have been performed around the world, by other researcher­s, that confirm his initial findings.
    It’s been replicated in Canada, in the US., in Venezuela, in Italy[but] they never get mentioned. All you ever hear is that no one else has ever been able to replicate the findings.
    I’m afraid that is false.
    For those of you who have swallowed this type of reporting hook line and sinker, here is a list of 28 studies from around the world that support Dr. Wakefield’­s controvers­ial findings.”
    1 The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559­-63
    2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
    3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
    4. Journal of Neuroimmun­ology 2005
    5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
    6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
    7. Neuropsych­obiology 2005; 51:77-85
    8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5­):605-10
    9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
    10. Canadian Journal of Gastroente­rology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
    11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3)­: 148-161
    12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
    13. Journal of Autism and Developmen­tal Disorders March 2009;39(3)­:405-13
    14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:13­3-144.
    15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429­-35
    16. Lancet. 1972;2:883­-884.
    17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophre­nia January-Ma­rch 1971;1:48-­62
    18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:3­66-372.
    19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375­-382.
    20. American Journal of Gastroente­rolgy April 2004;598-6­05.
    21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:50­4-517.
    22. Neuroimmun­ology April 2006;173(1­-2):126-34­.
    23. Prog. Neuropsych­opharmacol Biol Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:14­72-1477.
    24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Su­ppl 1):S6-S16
    25. Applied and Environmen­tal Microbiolo­gy, 2004;
    26. Journal of Medical Microbiolo­gy October 2005;54:98­7-991
    27. Archivos venezolano­s de puericultu­ra y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
    28. Gastroente­rology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstrac­t-303
    http://www­.ageofauti­sm.com/201­0/01/wakef­ields-scie­nce-proven­-valid-aga­in-in-new-­study-that­-replicate­s-findings­.html

  330. Gary says:

    Seriously, Steve, your inability to understand simply english is starting to worry me. They looked at data which was collected during 2003 through 2006. But the data covered children from 0 to 17 years old. This means that some of the subjects had vaccinations more than 10 years ago while some of them had lived without vaccines for that long as well. They looked for evidence that all sorts of medical treatment was sought for all sorts of atopic, infectious, and allergic disorders were present in the subjects. They found no difference in outcomes for vaccinated and unvaccinated kids with the exception that unvaccinated kids had more vaccine preventable disease.
    This study precisely addresses your attempted point and directly contradicts it. You may have a very narrow understanding of what a scientific study is. It is not necessary to be present at an event in order to find evidence of that event or to make conclusions based on such evidence. For instance, long before we put men or instruments into space, it was possible to determine the the earth orbited the sun. This is despite the fact that no human was able to experience the phenomena in that way. Additionally, it is possible to say lots of things about the amount of time the earth has been revolving around the sun despite the fact that no lab technician has been watching it and recording the event for longer than a few years at a time.
    See, somehow you are under the impression that unless we take a vast number of individuals and keep them in controlled conditions we cannot say anything about the differences between them that we can measure. This is simply not the case. Obviously, if we could put a few million humans into cages and perfectly control everything the they are exposed to for their entire lives, we could say much more reliable things about those exposures. But studies without those draconian controls are not therefore worthless.

  331. Gary says:

    I’m sorry, Steve, but your last comment has just floored me. Please look again at the methods section of that study. They collected data from about 18000 kids over a period of 3 years. But the data they collected for each kid covered his entire life. They asked questions of the kids, their parents, and the doctors involved like “Has the child ever been diagnosed with X” where the value of x definitely included auto immune disorders.
    The fact that you claim the study only looked at vaccine efficacy or that it only measure diagnoses over those 3 years absolutely astounds me.
    In the interests of fairness, allow me to criticize the study that I have linked to. It has several short comings.
    The first is that the number of non vaccinated children was terribly small. It was certainly possible to find cohorts for them in the vaccinated population, but it also means that there is a great deal more uncertainty in the incidence rates among the unvaccinated.
    The nature of the measurements means that they were unable to completely guarantee that some vaccinated children were misclassified as non vaccinated.
    As this was a poll of sorts, it is also possible the memories were not as accurate as would be desired.
    See, Steve, any of those limitations of the study (all listed in the study, BTW) would have been a good place to start with a critique. You chose instead either to read a different study, or to misrepresent this one in a very bizarre way.

  332. Gary says:

    But aluminum will be. You encounter aluminum all the time in your environment. You breath it, you eat it, you drink it in everything you encounter. And some of it ends up in the breast milk you produce. Yes, naturally occuring breast milk contains aluminum. And it contains far more than is in any vaccine. Meanwhile you give your child breast milk every day as opposed to a couple of times a year (quite rightly, BTW, breast milk is one of the best things to feed a baby).
    The point is that small amounts of aluminum are not really to be feared. And vaccines contain very small amounts indeed.

  333. Gary says:

    Dosage, Ingrid. The link you give there certainly confirms that formaldehyde can be dangerous. Did you note the dosages? Can you show that such dosages are present in any vaccine?

  334. Gary says:

    Yeah, not so much. Not one of those studies replicated Mr Wakefields fraud. I challenge you to do more than list them. Choose any one which replicated anything Wakefield did and explain how it did so. You might also look at the authors to make sure you not using a study Wakefield himself performed.
    Just one, Marsha, your choice.

  335. Gary says:

    “As far as whether her son got autism from the shot I don’t know. I know my friend Michelle’s son did – saw it HAPPEN. That is real.”
    Here’s the thing, Laura. It is not real. It is your experience of the events. More precisely, it is your memory of the events. The reality of the events is whatever the reality is. I am certainly not going to claim more information than you. I am just pointing out a logical fallacy that you are falling into. You are allowing your experience, and your interpretation of it to blind you to what may have actually happened.
    For instance, I would like to ask you if you have ever experienced the sun rising in the east? I would suggest that you have many times. However, I would point out that the sun has never in fact risen in the east. The truth turns out to be that the earth turns towards the east as it spins on its axis. But that is not how we experience the phenomena.
    Again, I am not claiming more knowledge about a specific event than you. I am only pointing out that what you are fighting to defend is your interpretation of that event, and you are specifically denying any outside knowledge to help you with that interpretation (“personally have no clue what is true or not so who cares”).
    I would like to express sincere concern for your child’s problem and for your friend’s. However, I would also like to suggest that you try to imagine a universe where your interpretation of events is not the only valid one.

  336. David King says:

    You know, Marsha just shows that she and other anti-vaxxers who believe her nonsense, not to have actually read any of those studies. For the most, the studies are about bowel issues – with zero mention of MMR, autism, measles etc. Marsha has been told this in many other locations, yet like a true believer, she needs to _believe_ even though her _best_ evidence, shows that she is just wrong. Such is the lot of anti-vaccinationists…

  337. Gary says:

    How about I answer you this way, Laura. What precisely about that article made you think that the vaccine was the cause of poor Ian’s death? Please be as specific as you can.

  338. Same old rhetoric & ridiculous challenges. I’m not here to play your games but go ahead without me, anyway.
    For a more indepth look into the 28 studies I posted that the deceivers are trying to discredit with their belly aching. Read up if you’re interested in the facts:
    http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?p=350522

  339. Scroll to the top where you’ll see the 28 studies I posted.

  340. Steve Michaels says:

    No, we are all saying to research before you put something in your body. You seem to be promoting the sheeple mentality that vaccines do NO harm when they demonstrably can and do.

  341. Steve Michaels says:

    The CDC piece is at odds with several statistics already cited on this now huge commentary. It quotes no statistics at all except some cherry picked ones AND it doesn’t make any statements regarding safety whatsoever. I have never argued against efficacy. Some vaccines really do work. But on the risk/benefit equation the question is ‘at what cost?’ Death rates for virtually all routine vaccines had already declined to next to nothing before vaccines so taking risks with vaccines KNOWN to cause harm to avoid diseases KNOWN to be benign just doesn’t add up.

  342. Steve Michaels says:

    As a parent, if I vaccinate my child and he is damaged for life, I would not be able to live with myself. The diseases prevented are generally benign but can have complications. But let’s face it, 1 in 4 children are chronically ill and in need of prescription medicines, 50% of adults the same, roughly 1 in 100 ASD and there is less than a 1% chance that my child MIGHT die of complications IF he actually contracts a VPD. I can see clearly where I place MY money. Interestingly, most of the VPD death reports that this site quote resulted from the infallible doctor’s misdiagnosis and resultant delayed treatment. In shot by shot, one child died of a heart attack from acute dehydration after multiple misdiagnosis by the doctor.

  343. Steve Michaels says:

    Of course it must be, mustn’t it? A contemporary report from the actual time that has been either forgotten or buried disproving a key claim upon which your argument is based. Must be rubbish because YOU can’t be wrong! Why is it rubbish? Don’t say ‘because it’s on Rense.’ That is fallacious. PROVE it wrong.

  344. Sandy says:

    Mothers! We read labels on jam jars and biscuit packets to see ingredients. If we don’t like what we see, we don’t buy.
    We should certainly be interested in reading about vaccine ingredients too.
    Ask for the package inserts. Investigate before you vaccinate!
    Only when you have investigated thoroughly will you be able to make an informed choice.

  345. Manfred Sandvoss says:

    Good food and hygiene, emotional care plus homeopathy is a brilliant fundament to not needing risky vaccinations. Vaccinations have spoiled the health of quite many people. Time to be honest.

  346. Nordica says:

    Wow, really Steve? My breastmilk is more harmful than a vaccine?
    I never imagined. I should stop breastfeeding right now, switch to formula (which is mostly MSG) and pump my kids full of 30-40 vaccines (all mostly MSG) to get them all “up to date”…
    but don’t worry, it’s just a little table salt and jello. Certainly less harmful than breastmilk.

  347. Nordica says:

    That was directed at Jennifer Laura, actually. So tired! Going to bed before I rail at the wrong person again. 🙂
    Goodnight, I salute the people who can see through this massively profitable machine. God bless all the little kids and their families who suffer greatly DIRECTLY because of the effects of vaccines, and are robbed of a healthy happy life not by “vaccine preventable diseases” (a fallacy in and of itself). I spit on this toxic world we live in, which people will defend to the bitter end. When the time comes for mass inoculations and no religious or personal exemptions will be considered, I imagine Kelly and the rest of them will volunteer to drive the “vaccine truck” around, strap us down to tables, and administer them by force to our screaming children. And then when their insides and outsides begin to rot away and they lose control of their functions, and their personality disintigrates, they can continue to tell us we’re imagining there is a connection.

  348. Barb says:

    “how do you justify those that died or just got sick from a vaccine-preventable disease?” People will get sick and die. Vaccines cannot prevent that from happening. Many of those who get sick from “vaccine-preventable” diseases were vaccinated. Vaccine ingredients are not “safe” and have never been proven to be safe. Many vaccine ingredients are trade secret and the public and your doctor do not know that they are injecting your child with food protein from the mix of oils that are GRAS or the food protein left from the culture mediums. It is only the final culture medium that appears on the package insert. Up until that point food waste can be used.
    And the statistic for the “vaccine preventable” illnesses have been skewed and manipulated. The flu deaths are the most well known. The CDC combined pneumonia and flu together to make flu look more deadly.
    Currently 1 in 10 children in Australia have serious food allergies caused by vaccines. Food allergies are unknown in unvaccinated populations. The increase in austism (and no there is no proof that vaccines are not causing the “epidemic”), ADHD, childhood leukemia, diabetes… all point to vaccines as being a major contributing factor.

  349. Jennifer says:

    Ingrid: “It’s like taking a beautiful work of art and then tampering with it”. Actually, the tampering can be seen more as “enhancing”. Seeing as you’ve done research on this, you will understand that there are two immune responses; the first exposure and every subsequent exposure. In the initial exposure, the body has to create very specific antibodies, but wants to make them in a rush, so it manufactures those with very high avidity, but not very high affinity in 5-7 days. In the second exposure, we can tailer very high affinity antibodies that are more effective and can be released in 3-5 days.
    What happens if the pathogen is faster than 7 days and you are not vaccinated? Depends on the virulence, but you could be risking your life.
    Vaccination essentially “speeds up this process” by initiating a non-lethal, controlled first exposure. Before vaccines, this was practiced through the use of “pox parties” and ingestion of fluids by individuals who were infected with a less virulent form of the disease (ex. during the black plague). How is this “completely MESSING with you own natural immune system”? It doesn’t introduce any new principles or processes that the body doesn’t already utilize.
    As for the “junk ingredients” in vaccines, it’s not like they are thrown in willy-nilly by crazed vaccine researchers who just want to poison the children of the world. They all serve a purpose, and it is unfortunate that they can’t use less additives, but they would do so at the risk of contamination of the vaccine. Before preservatives were added to vaccines, the death of a group of children after a polio vaccination was very unfortunately due to the colonization of the vaccine by staphylococcus aureus. Trace amounts of additives that are quickly cleared from the body (usually within 48 hours depending on the child) are a minor concern in the long run.

  350. Jennifer says:

    Ingrid: “show me a SINGLE study that compares autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children”. If I had a penny for every time an anti-vaxer said that to me…well, you understand. People demand this be all and end all “study” over and over again, without understanding that it is an IMPOSSIBLE request.
    First of all, ethically, we cannot compare vaccinated and unvaccinated children. We cannot double blind a study and vaccinate or not vaccinate some kids, with the risk that is run with no vaccinating. If any child is damaged from a vaccine-preventable illness, the researcher would be held accountable for that damage, and that would be extremely irresponsible and unethical of the researcher.
    Without blinding the study, it would be impossible to prevent biases, because people who do not vaccinate generally have to take a more active route to their decision. Therefore, parents who choose not to vaccinate their children or to have a delayed vaccination schedule are more likely to downplay any afflictions their child may have. This study would also allow to much emotional juxtaposition. For example, “Suzie was vaccinated and has a heart valve defect, similar to one caused by an autoimmune disease, that required two heart surgeries before the age of ten. John has not vaccinated and has never even had an ear infection”. That statement compared my and my brother, but in our case we were both vaccinated so John was actually vaccinated too. But see how that could look coming from different parents?
    Science gets beaten up because it cannot give you a 100% answer over whether vaccines are safe, but the truth is, it can’t give you a 100% answer that water is safe to drink or that you won’t wake up tomorrow able to fly. If science can’t garuntee gravity tomorrow, how can it garuntee complete safety?

  351. Lunacy has reigned for far too long. The trade off for having childhood disease, that most always strengthened immune systems was replaced by epidemics on a scale that’s so massive it, now, takes 1 in 3 in cancer before age of 65 & 1 in 100 children in neurological disorders called autism.
    Doctors have been trained to blame media, saying there has been no increase. They say cancer & autism have always been prominent but we never noticed until media began reporting it. They also blame the rise in autism on better diagnosis but if that was so, we would have noticed these victims all around us, had they actually been there all along.
    We know this is a lie because we can see with our own eyes how widespread both cancer & autism have become.
    We never saw such epidemics years back & the rise has been right in step with the increase in vaccinations through the years. Other toxins let loose on mankind via the air, food & water are to blame as well as harmful drugs but vaccines are definitely the catalyst.
    We are a nation of epidemics that’s rippled out to the world because of ignorance & greed.
    It is unbelievable yet undeniable if properly investigated.

  352. Janine says:

    I agree with the whole concept of honeopathy and good nutrition. What is completely forgotten about is the energy state of the body. I was at a seminar last week which was going on about the different ways the neurons can function and the best way is the chemical method, what is in jabs?
    Chemicals ARE affecting bubbas and people of all ages and “medicine” is denying the truth. These toxic substances – often working in synery with each other, working directly with the very workings of the body!
    I believe in Homeopathy as it has a lot to do with nanoparticles having a LOT more reactivity due to their size, homeopathic compounds would be more reactive still as the reactivity of the compoubds are mainly ont he outside of the molecules. Plus you can now see the compounds clumped together in studies (go to the Homeopathy journal from Elsevier).
    Vaccines safe and effective? no and no, vaccines actually work by the Th2 mechanism which is induced and doesn’t always work, you are far better getting the chickenpox and stuff and getting immunity for life. I had the jabs as a kids and I am suffering with poor immune response! Grrrrrrr.
    If I was to be a mum, I’d not subject my kiddies to this vile treatment, I don’t trust it in the slightest!!

  353. Jennifer says:

    Sorry, but do you know what serum is? I’m assuming, because we’re talking vaccines, you are talking about antiserum, which is administered through a passive transfusion of fluid from someone who has already survived the disease (ex. Ebola virus). It can also be thought of or referred to as an “antitoxin”. What does that have to do with anything in this conversation however? Giving a kid a glass of vaccines is a ridiculous thing parents love to say, but really, apart from that fact that is suggested that kids are injected with enough vaccinations to fill a glass, it proves no point. Yes, if you gave anyone that much vaccine fluid, at a time, probably not a great idea. Probably a bad idea if they drank that much of anything if they’re 6 lbs, but it is not poison. Not poison. It is a mixture of antigen containing particles, preservatives, and some caryover culture that is not more harmful than popping an aspirin.
    And as far as preventing nothing, it must be hard if you live in a place that still has polio, measles, mumps, ruebella, and babies dying of whooping cough. I’m sorry that the leading cause of death where you are is infectious diseases, which is not the case of most developed countries with vaccination schedules and access to clean water.

  354. Jennifer says:

    Snoozie :
    With the level of vitriol the anti-vaccine movement levels at those who try to protect children’s health by promoting immunizations, is it any wonder that more parents do not step forward? The comments from the anti-vaccine side today have been callous toward this mother’s loss. Had her child been vaccinated, she would be alive.
    Does the anti-vaccination movement want to go back to 13,000 cases/year of paralytic polio, 2.7 million deaths/year from measles, 600 deaths per year from Hib, 9,000 deaths/year from pertussis, 150 deaths/year from chicken pox, and 15,000 deaths/year from diphtheria?
    When children do not get vaccinate, children die.

  355. Janine says:

    Steve Michaels :And if you don’t recognize that there is a difference between ingestion and injection then you are even more ignorant than you appear.

    They quite often do, even pharmacists are suspect to this Steve. Watch them start blabbering about aluminium being safe, read the data and it is ingested! *shakes head* Oh and for the record, the Al can accumulate in the kidneys!

  356. Jennifer says:

    “Far better getting the chickenpox and stuff”- chickenpox, which we all got at some point when we are children, is now vaccinated against because as it turns out it can harbour a latent infection that can be reactivated and cause shingles. Heard of it? Very unpleasant later in life, especially if you are already immune compromised.
    And by “stuff” you mean polio, measles, Hib, petussis, mumps, and diptheria? I think most people are better off avoiding those. By the Th2 mechanism, I’m assuming you mean the secondary response mechanism, and if people just contracted the “stuff” that you said they would be better off getting in nature, they would exploit that mechanism anyways. Vaccines just create a less virulent atmosphere for the primary exposure and response. Body uses that mechanism, we just make it faster, so that we don’t die before our immune system is ready to go.

  357. You who deny criminal intent & corruption behind vaccines had better be careful. Especially if you’re a big player. Those you have duped may be innocent as far as being directly connected & complicit in ways where they’d be up for criminal charges but you big boys will face the consequences.
    You’ve no idea what’s going on behind the scenes & I assure the guilty, we’ll have our day in a “real” legal court of law. Not a kangaroo court like happened to Wakefield & many parents with children with neurological disorders, labeled autism, who needed help & judges ruled against them. Not with the world watching & so many awake & paying attention as they are, now.
    We’re closing in. Don’t you who are guilty feel the heat?
    Poul Thorsen did. Remember him? He was top/head researcher/scientist behind the Danish studies that claimed no connection between vaccines & injury. He got scared & ran off with the research money & has just been indicted.
    Speaking of criminals.
    Take a look at this NBC report, brought to us by the same criminals, at the top, behind vaccines. This will infuriate you, to the max, if you have a heart. Notice the fool of a doctor & what he says.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFPJL66p4c&feature=related
    It is time for truth & we start by holding the guilty responsible for crimes against humanity!

  358. Jennifer says:

    If you want to be taken seriously, don’t cite this. Honestly. Don’t.

  359. Kelly says:

    Ingrid :
    And this is where you, Kelly, need to get a bit more educated about formaldehyde. (And chemicals!) Just because it occurs in nature doesn’t mean we should go around inhaling it and injecting it (especially into a newborn baby). Formaldehyde is a known carcinogen. The amount of naturally occurring formaldehyde in the human body is minuscule compared with what’s injected into your body via vaccines. You need more education on this topic and that’s not meant to be insulting, just … a fact. http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde

    LOL @ Ingrid, you are the one that is lacking the education. Not minuscule amounts Ingrid. We are talking 500,000X more, every single day. The amount of formaldehyde is no where near toxic. http://justthevax.blogspot.com/search/label/formaldehyde

  360. Kelly says:

    Oh I have a higher education A. Brimhall. Clearly quite higher than yours since I understand the safety and efficiency of vaccines and you do not.

  361. Kelly says:

    Nice Strawman Ingrid. Nobody dismisses the possibility of adverse reactions from vaccines.

  362. Kelly says:

    I’m a troll, Ingrid? I’m a vaccine advocate on a blog that promotes vacccine advocacy. You are clearly anti-vaccine, here to create controversy where none exists. How about you address Anne’s logical fallacy? How does it make you feel to know that she is manipulating your emotions using false claims and her degree in psychology? You think that is a wonderful thing to do, especially since the consequence of her lies is that children will suffer?
    What have you contributed to these blog comments besides name-calling and strawmen, Ingrid? I find Anne’s manipulation disgusting, but typical of the anti-vax movement. Read the anti-vax comments here and all that they have is misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies. Ad hominem and strawmen are probably their two favourites followed by unsubstantiated claims.

  363. Kelly says:

    Thoughtful House is an organization that treats children with autism. They promote the idea of vaccines cause autism when he scientific evidence shows no such link. Thoughtful House has a conflict of interest in that acknowledging that vaccines don’t cause autism would affect their profits. Thoughtful House has an invested interest in falsely elevating autism rates.

  364. Steve Michaels says:

    So are we to infer that your solution is to keep the masses dumb and compliant? Place all of our faith in scientists who have, among other things, destroyed the Gulf of Mexico and half of Japan with their arrogant ‘we can outdo God’ mentality? It’s amazing how everyone brings up Wakefield. Want to know why? He stood up against the corporate machine and has been crucified for it to let other researchers know what happens if you mess with the profit machine…

  365. Stop with the rhetoric. This ignorance & fraud pretending to be science, which has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, right here in this thread, is harming children as we speak. The most vaccines do is suppress disease, which causes terrible problems later in life, if not directly after vaccination.
    Did you miss this:
    Chickenpox Vaccine Linked with Shingles Epidemic
    http://www.herpesdoctor.com/chickenpox-vaccine-linked-shingles-epidemic
    There’s a new government study that came out last year & yet they are still giving these toxic jabs>>>
    “Chickenpox Vaccine & Death – New US Government Study”
    As for polio, as well as the other diseases, research will show the facts on the dis-information we’ve been fed as is referenced in this thread for anyone desiring to know the real facts.
    All vaccines are bad & interfere with immune systems designed to do naturally what vaccines pretend to do.
    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA
    They tried to deny cigarettes & the cancer link, too, which is going on here, too. Shame on doctors who covered for the tobacco companies & double shame on those working this cover up. If hell’s a reality, there’s a special place reserved for the criminals who love money more than children.
    Read what the experts have been trying to tell us but have been stifled & ignored until now;
    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION
    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

  366. Steve Michaels says:

    As Nathan will point out, experiments on humans are considered unethical. So why not experiment on animals to find out? And you only claim that it is not reputable because you don’t agree. How about a substantive objection. Like the research chair leading the investigation holds vaccine patents and is paid royalties on vaccine patents and therefore has a COI… or the study was funded in part by the manufacturer…

  367. Steve Michaels says:

    Why not Jennifer? What in that article is wrong? Don’t say that you can’t trust Mercola because he sells stuff. Categorical denial of a source holds no sway. Unless you can specifically demonstrate that he is wrong, you are simply attacking the messenger to divert attention away from the message.

  368. Kelly says:

    Actually I didn’t accuse Ann of abusing her children Ingrid. It was a reference to a logical fallacy called “false assumption” that is often illustrated by a lawyer asking a defendant “Have you stopped beating your wife”. I explained the fallacy after the comment, but reading comprehension is not a strong point of anti-vaxers, so I can understand why you failed to pick-up the reference and failed to understand the explanation.
    I have been horrified by your arrogance Ingrid. Telling people who are clearly more educated than you to get an education is very foolish and really makes it hard to take you seriously. You also seem fond of name-calling and building strawman. Not really a sign of someone who knows what she is talking about.

  369. I salute them & you, too, Nordica. I loved your comment. It was powerful.

  370. Kelly says:

    Actually Elisabeth, I wished her son WELL and that he stays healthy! I’m trying to stop this nonsense being spread by anti-vaxers so that her kid can stay healthy. Again, reading comprehension is not a strong point of an anti-vaxer.
    And yes, there is a huge difference in contracting the disease naturally vs. a vaccine. Naturally, you get sick, vaccines you don’t. That is the whole point!
    And of course you can provide PubMed links to the papers that show increased autoimmune illnesses are due to vaccines and not other factors?

  371. Steve Michaels says:

    Kelly :
    <
    I have been horrified by your arrogance Ingrid. Telling people who are clearly more educated than you to get an education is very foolish and really makes it hard to take you seriously. You also seem fond of name-calling and building strawman. Not really a sign of someone who knows what she is talking about.

    Well done Kelly! I see your on form today! It really is no wonder you are not taken seriously on here. You accuse Ingrid of arrogance and then imply that you are better educated, ie. you are an arrogant cow. And the answer to the legal question is ‘no, I never beat my wife in the first place.’ Good to see that your assumptions are still leading you by the nose to the realm of stupidity.

  372. Steve Michaels says:

    Actually Kelly, you do get sick, it just happens by ‘coincidence’ near the time of vaccination or down the road when the relationship can be ignored. And what you get is worse than the disease you potentially avoided and often chronic as opposed to sick for a week or so and that’s the end of it.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711932
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628439
    Bottom line of these animal studies is that vaccines damage neuro development. Ongoing research is expected to be completed next year.

  373. You are so right, Steve. We are so blessed to have you on the side of truth, standing with us.

  374. Kelly says:

    Yes, so the answer to Anne’s question is “no, because vaccines never caused her and her child’s injuries in the first place”, which was my point.
    I think I am taken seriously because of the ad hominems to discredit me. If I was no threat to you, why do you have to try to discredit me? Arrogant cow? They teach you that at Oxford, Steve? You and your buddies can’t counter my points with anything intelligent so you have to resort to name-calling. I’ve asked you to try to withhold the ad hominems but since you would have nothing to say otherwise, every single post you make contains them.

  375. LOL. Unbelievable, huh, Mandy? I couldn’t believe that, either. I think he should replace the word “fruit” with “rot” as that would be a better description for his foul mouthed self.

  376. Kelly says:

    Steve, those are monkeys and both done by the same author who has a conflict of interest in that she claims her child’s autism was due to vaccines. Isn’t it you that preaches dismissing papers out of hand due to COI, Steve?
    For those looking for commentary on these studies please see:
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2010/02/monkey-business-indeed.html

  377. Nik says:

    So she gave you a site that links to a study, I don’t see what is wrong with that. You don’t have to read mercola’s piece or his opinion on it. It is so silly that because the link for a study is on a website you don’t care fondly of doesn’t make the information untrue. I don’t think mercola was part of this study or paid for it (please correct if I’m wrong), So what is so uncreditable about the STUDY that she would not be taken seiously for citing?

  378. Babs says:

    @Gary; Let me see, but wasn’t wakefields paper about bowel problems?

  379. Thank you Steve. This rhetoric these people have been brainwashed in, is no longer holding water, thank goodness.
    Not with us angry parents & world citizens setting the record straight & not allowing the lies to go unchallenged.
    I love that Dr. Mercola & Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the NVIC, teamed up to fund the Jumbotron at Time Square.
    Now that’s progress!
    Both, Mercola & Barbara have been crucified in the past. Jennifer continues to parrot the propaganda & talking points to no avail.
    All this deception has backfired.
    Consider the crucifying of the good doctor, Wakefield. He was blamed for parents not wanting to vaccinate, but actually, we were already on the warpath & aware so they tried to pin that awakening on him. They commishioned media to discredit him in hope to reverse the trend.
    By the way. While I’m thinking of it. Activists behind the scenes are demanding Poul Thorsen receive media coverage, Andrew Wakefield should not have.
    Their orchestrated witch hunt & frame up of Andrew Wakefield backfired, too.
    Because of Wakefield, masses more began waking & are now paying attention.
    Big downfall for the criminals having so many watching their every move & taking actions, too.
    Prigress!

  380. By the way. Speaking of Wakefield. I saw in another comment it being discussed that Wakefield was not against vaccines. Just over load. But if you research the investigation I sent here from Progressive Radio, that cleared his good name, you’ll find he’s discovered vaccines in their true reality.
    You’ll find he is in agreement with another good doctor I love to quote as this is the third time I’ve posted this here. Third times a charm. Maybe some of the duped will, finally, wake up & not beLIEve the bull they’ve been fed.
    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

  381. Dee says:

    Aluminum which passes through our bodies from our lungs, mouth, and skin is different than injecting it past our natural barriers.

  382. Steve Michaels says:

    Kelly :
    Steve, those are monkeys and both done by the same author who has a conflict of interest in that she claims her child’s autism was due to vaccines. Isn’t it you that preaches dismissing papers out of hand due to COI, Steve?
    For those looking for commentary on these studies please see:
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2010/02/monkey-business-indeed.html

    I don’t say a victim with a medical degree searching for truth has a conflict of interest. I would say that a researcher who is paid directly or indirectly by a manufacturer does. Somehow you seem to miss the difference. And yes, they experimented on monkeys. Somehow, anyone trying to study safety on humans is told it is unethical. Go figure. In the pro-vax world you CAN’T test safety on humans and you WON’T accept testing on animals. Kind of a slam dunk to say that you can’t test safety. Just take your shot and pray.

  383. Dee says:

    Susan, I agree with you completely on that one.
    Kelly: a large number of babies who have trouble breast feeding are the same babies who were born in intervened births. Interventions such as synthetic hormones, stupor-inducing drugs, c-sections, premature cord clamping, forceps, immediate vitamin and vaccine injections, taking the baby away from the mother directly after the birth as well as placing the baby in a nursery when they should be against the mother’s skin learning to nurse as much as possible…
    Our western medical system often perpetuates its own problems.

  384. Dee says:

    Wow! I find myself constantly saying the same things! We are arrogant thinking we know better than the intricate design of nature, and the Creator of the design at that. As long as we have people who think we know better and continue to buy into GMOs, vaccinations/western science and medicine/nuclear energy etc, we will continue down the track or the abuse and destruction of our earth and our people.
    ARROGANCE.

  385. Dee says:

    I sure as hell did breastfeed them. I also don’t vaccinate nor drink/eat out of aluminum things to keep my levels down. I also don’t push aluminum physically past my child’s skin into his body.

  386. Kelly :Yes, so the answer to Anne’s question is “no, because vaccines never caused her and her child’s injuries in the first place”, which was my point.
    I think I am taken seriously because of the ad hominems to discredit me. If I was no threat to you, why do you have to try to discredit me? Arrogant cow? They teach you that at Oxford, Steve? You and your buddies can’t counter my points with anything intelligent so you have to resort to name-calling. I’ve asked you to try to withhold the ad hominems but since you would have nothing to say otherwise, every single post you make contains them.

    Wait a minute, Kelly. The readers can look back & see just who the intelligent & truthful ones here are.
    They can tell who the mean spirited are, easily, too.
    The tactics you use, Kelly, are right out of the play book.
    One tell:
    Accuse your opponents of what you represent.
    The ad homonyms are coming from your side & you are fooling no one. Well, maybe yourselves in some sick & delusional way. That herd mentality works that way, unfortunately.
    Your side’s many attacks on those being sincere & civil are recorded here, you know?
    They are based in anger & deception.
    We don’t call you fxxx wits & such. We don’t make severely callous remarks designed to hurt as your side is stooping to. We tell it like it really is.
    Don’t forget “Crotchfruit” is on your team & his attacks are epic as are many others on your team, also.
    And the readers know that. Those on the fence. The ones both of our teams are after.
    Our team is only speaking truth like Steve pointing out you being a cow. That’s so based in truth, Kelly, because it’s you who accept the bull & are content in being a cash cow.
    I’m sorry for you if truth hurts because I know some of you, actually, beLIEve your views are true. But they are based in fraud & very dangerous.
    Not actual science as the evidence sent here shows clearly.
    The ignorance you hold onto has to be treated with fire because; WE ARE ANGRY! WE ARE OUTRAGED!
    This is our children, here, were talking about & that herd mentality is killing & maiming them so how nice can you expect us to be about it?
    And the difference in our teams is that what we say may be harsh. But it’s true & from our hearts.
    Your team best get out of our way because we intend to win this war waged on our children. You are on the side of criminals & if not for that herd mentality that has hold on you, you’d be able to do the proper research to see that.

  387. Steve Michaels says:

    Shannon Des Roches Rosa :
    Steve, you and Marsha M. are this site’s resident anti-vaccination movement trolls. Any regular reader has watched you two churn endless reams of misinformation — misinformation that takes all of two internet seconds to debunk — and knows not to take you seriously. The only reason anyone engages you at all is due to unfamiliarity, or due to concern that new readers might not know of your agendas.

    What is your favorite expression? “Boomerang back at you”, I think. If it wasn’t for people challenging your dogmatic views, there would be no balance. I have shown through logic and analysis of virtually every study provided by the pro side that the studies fall into one of several categories EVERY time. They are either COI biased or manufacturer linked or approved by regulators who are industry linked or the findings and conclusions don’t actually match. You say that my ‘misinformation’ can be disproven in two seconds, yet this is done by saying ‘that’s not a credible source’ or my source is better than your source’ or the like. No question of the science or results. Just attacks on the sources NOT the information. What I am doing (and Marsha and I don’t agree on everything either) is making sure that the unbiased reader has a chance to see that there is more than one side to this story and to encourage people to research for themselves. Christine on the other hand has shown her true colors on the previous post. Entitled “What We Have is a Failure To Communicate” and it draws the conclusion that the best way to ‘communicate’ is to censor those with whom you disagree. Nobody that I have seen on the anti-vax side of things is saying that pro-vaxers should be silenced, merely challenged. The fact that this is met with calls for censorship and removal of informed consent speaks volumes about the strength (or lack thereof as it were) of the pro-vax position.

  388. Steve Michaels says:

    This is for Shannon’s comment below. A quote from your source from Offitt (for profit):
    “I no longer financially benefit from the sales of RotaTeq. My financial interests in that vaccine have been sold out by either The Wistar Institute, The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, or me.”
    Now correct me if I am wrong, but he admits he DID profit and he SOLD his interests for profit. Just because he cashed out on the rotavirus vaccine doesn’t mean (1) that he is free of influence by his bankroller or (2) that he isn’t currently using his Merck funded research chair to develop more vaccines for more profits down the road. Hardly a stellar refutation of COI.

  389. Steve Michaels says:

    Actually, yes in a way, it’s an English expression that is more polite than b*tch! The way you treat victims of the very thing you are so ignorant about is astonishing. You call any questioning of your self-proclaimed God-like expertise as an ad hominem attack. I have countered virtually all of your points but you are so far up yourself that you can’t admit it. I’m sure there is some sort of clinical name for that behavior, but it escapes me at the moment… And since your assumptive question is so dear to you, in any court of law the question would be objected to and the objection upheld on two counts. Firstly, it is assumptive and secondly the questioner is testifying by using an assumptive tactic. In other words, your example has no merit anyway.

  390. Kelly says:

    Calling me an arrogant cow and ignorant is not countering my points Steve.
    Remember it was Anne that was using the false assumption, and yes I objected to it. You just conceded my point while thinking you were insulting me. Not really countering my points when you end up agreeing with me.

  391. Snoozie :I have said nothing about homeopathy that is untrue. It has no active ingredients. It is “energy medicine.” It violates Avagadro’s number. These are not ad hominem attacks; they are facts. It’s theory could not be more different from vaccination if it tried since homeopathy is used by germ denialists and anti-vaxxers everywhere.
    Show me a study showing that homeopathy works better than placebo.

    There were studies on homeopathy but with negative results done by those with vested interests. The fraud called science goes deep as the massive amount of evidence sent here for review has shown.
    Again, see for yourselves by looking up, faked studied and paid doctors to put their names on them.
    The proof is overwhelming as anyone looking can see.
    It’s kind of like when you pro vax people don’t hear or acknowledge all the many child victims being damaged, destroyed & killed by vaccines. You choose, also, to ignore the myriads of people who say homeopathy works.
    The same criminals, who use those they dupe or are in it for the money, behind the vaccine cover up suppress homeopathy because it’s their job to stand in the way of anything that would cut into their profit.
    Besides saving our children from further harm due to bad drugs, other toxins & vaccines, this is another war we intend win. Stomping out the orchestrated effort that denies & stands in the way of integrated medicine.
    We the people of the world intend to have the best of both worlds when it comes to conventional & alternative,(natural), medicine. You can bet on it!
    For your review;
    http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/homeopathy

  392. Snoozie says:

    There is a difference, Marsha, between rhetoric and facts. I provide facts. You provide rhetoric meant to instill fear.

  393. When will ‘this genocide?
    Brief description of our tragedy
    To show how evil can do the vaccinations, used so indiscriminately on families from all over the world, I think it’s my duty by telling my story, but specifies that unfortunately my story is not considered a unique case in itself sporadically but it is only the tip of an iceberg that is trying to unmask the category of “scientism” that terror still require the use of vaccination practices.
    The tragedy that struck my family, has hit three of my four children.
    I state that my three children are affected by the reaction from the vaccine, were born perfectly healthy and that the manifestations of a disease may have appeared only after the first vaccine Sabin. A Mark, my firstborn, the folder was described the clinical symptoms that appeared after the Antipolo Sabin. The disturbances occurred (ocular nystagmus, tremors and defects to the word) had been made in relation to the pediatrician by Sabin, while other doctors had assumed various diagnoses such as brain tumor or degenerative encephalopathy, never confirmed by any analysis performed on the child. He died in 1971 at six years. The second son, born in 1970, there were problems. But the drama returns with the birth, which occurred in 1976, of two twins monovular. Despite my opposition to an iron law that I have imposed a mandatory absurd and dangerous, without any prior investigation, were vaccinated and the next day already began to emerge the first signs of any alteration. Submitted the medical records of the first shelters suffered by my children at various Universities: United States, England and even in Russia, in the latter country is speculated disease on immune deficiencies that would have confirmed the specific responsibility of the vaccinations. In my city, Verona, was placed the diagnosis of type metacromatic Leukodystrophy, a degenerative disease of the nervous system, this diagnosis was never confirmed by genetic tests also that we are submitting. Later Andrea, one of the twins, it is aggravated and was hospitalized for dehydration, despite my recommendation not to use drugs immune-suppressor, because the child was immune-compromised, of cortisone was used in a vein in five hours and my creature died. Later I came to know that the same drug was given to my first child before death. Even with the autopsy were able to have useful information to save the life of twin remained because there was denied the presence of a medical legal part, so that examination could not be trusted with our research. At one month after the death of Andrea, Alberto, was the sister, had to be hospitalized. Despite the opinion of doctors was to let it die, it was brought at our request, in resuscitation and asked a virologist of Naples, who previously had examined the child, they advised us of immune-stimulant. Subjected to treatment with interferon, the child began to improve slowly. After six months in hospital the baby was brought home with no letter of resignation. Sometime later, the requested medical records, I realized that they were different from those who copied each day during hospitalization. That is a statement presented to the judiciary. As a consequence of this was done by a judge issued a court notice to the Director at the Health Office in which he had been admitted to the child, later extended to primary pediatrics for “Fake ongoing public. At the end of this proceeding was filed.
    Many other shelters suffered Alberto, both in the same hospital in Verona than in other resuscitation: the Polyclinic of Milano, Merate in the province of Como, a Melegnano, near Milan, and finally was transferred automatically from the Polyclinic of Melegnano Verona. During all the different shelters my task was to ensure that treatments were applied immune-stimulant that we had given the first positive results. These therapies we were always advised by Professor Tarro of Naples, who was a pupil of Professor Sabin. It was always difficult if not impossible to apply this type of therapy to Alberto, as the doctors had ruled compact now that my son had to die. This was supported because discovery was not the responsibility of the vaccinations used on a subject, partially immune-compromised. Although our case had concerned the then President of the Republic, Sandro Pertini, putting pressure because the Health Minister Renato Altissimo established a Ministerial Commission, this without ever having seen a report drawn Alberto fake to hide the truth of the damage suffered by the vaccines. The last shelter Alberto had to suffer at the Polyclinic in Verona, where, in the opinion of health care, my son had to die a short time. I tried desperately to bring home my child, was seen as their way of thinking because the only solution of the problem for them was the culmination of the whole nefarious affair. At that juncture, because I could not survive in order to make my creature, even I did remove the “parental authority” by the Judge of children in Venice, to whom I addressed just to make them understand that he was committing a gross error. I managed to convince him to reinstate me in the parental responsibility, starting as early the now 1984 to manage my child at home, creating me resuscitation room “where previously arranged our master bedroom. During hospitalization all my wife Franca Alberto has always remained with him day and night to protect it from any abuse that the medical profession sought to implement.
    Many others had to suffer harassment by the Health, even if Alberto had not set foot in a hospital, controversy of any kind from the health institutions because they do not want to admit that the vaccinations were the cause of his illness and death of his brothers.
    Finally, in 1995, making recourse to law 210 of 1992, recognized by the state saw the “causation” of the damage suffered by subjecting our children to mandatory vaccinations.
    During all these years I efforts to establish associations in Italy to aggregate people like me who have suffered damage from the vaccine practices;
    also tried to pass a law that had developed with the Parliamentarians, to waive the obligation of these practices, but this goal in Italy has not been achieved because, in my opinion, the health policy that is implemented is left thumb yet the power of corporations of drugs. All this is proving that even in this area, some pseudo science, with the arrogance of his scientism, devoid of any scruple, trample continuously, with action in most cases illegal, every human right and civil matters. It imposes its power based on speculation that interest their progress based not on an open and accurate information, but rather on a complete and deliberate disinformation to get even the Occult of certain realities and impersonating preventing these practices prophylaxis that may, except to prevent anything.
    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?profile=1&id=100000877344712#!/photo.php?fbid=181193258586584&set=p.181193258586584&notif_t=photo_comment

  394. Snoozie says:

    Repeating it time and again does not make it true.

  395. WHEN YOU BECOME A MEMBER “MURDERESS”?
    WHEN COMING TO THE ATTENTION OF COUNTLESS SERIOUS NEGATIVE EFFECTS CAUSED by the indiscriminate use of certain practices, INSTEAD ‘makes it clear, He hides them and retains the obligation on those pseudo-HEALTH highly dangerous, not even bothering to PREPARE FINDINGS FOR QUOTES CAN BE AVOID POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES Tragedy.
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1017122520708&set=a.1017113160474.2003342.1604470486&ref=fbx_album

  396. Check out this site that describes the video IRISH many tragedies caused by vaccines and their own, do you draw the conclusions you to understand the great danger of these reckless practices impersonating PREVENTION!
    http://sanevax.org/videos/vaccine-victims.shtml

  397. 40 children killed by the MMR vaccine in the UK – and the true picture may be 10 times worse.
    October 27, 2010
    Forty children died after a routine vaccination with MMR and 2,100 more have suffered a serious reaction, the health authorities of the United Kingdom were forced to disclose in this week – and these figures are only the tip of the iceberg.
    Two of the vaccinated children have been permanently damaged the brain, and another 1500 children have suffered neurological reactions, including 11 cases of brain inflammation and 13 cases of seizures and coma. Overall, there were more than 2,100 adverse reactions to childhood vaccines in the United Kingdom over the last seven years. The British Health and Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority (MHRA), were forced to disclose information following a question from a reporter under the Freedom of Information legislation.
    The full picture is probably much worse. The MHRA are only those cases that doctors have reported, if the doctors do not believe that the vaccine has caused the reaction, not report it. It is suspected that only 10 percent of all deaths and reactions from vaccines are ever reported, and if so, this means that 400 children died from a vaccine and 21,000 had suffered an adverse reaction in the UK alone. The real situation is much worse in countries like USA, Italy and France, where vaccination for children is still required.
    Last month, the British government was forced by a court to pay damages to a mother whose son suffered severe brain damage after an MMR vaccination. Another 500 similar cases are currently under discussion in the courts of the United Kingdom. These few figures represent a serious setback for the relationship between doctors and vaccinators parents. Many parents have accepted the assurances of doctors and health authorities who claim that vaccines are safe, and they are doing the best for their child and the community.
    Now, if things go wrong, may be less inclined to believe the denials of medical and surely begin to think that the vaccine is to blame.
    (Source: Times Sunday, October 24, 2010).
    See also Italian official statistics “ONE OF THE VENETO REGION” confirming countless damage from the vaccine!
    http://www.tremante.it/index_file/Page5083.html

  398. Snoozie says:

    Gary–Marsha is completely incapable of even listing the NAMES of these studies. I sincerely doubt she has read even one of them. She has absolutely no credibility and continues to make a fool of herself by reposting this Age of Autism information. After all, if she had any idea what she was talking about, she could at the very least tell us what each study does to prove her point. Instead, she will call us liars and shills and parrots and what have you. At this point, no reasonable, intelligent person could possibly take this type of argument seriously.

  399. Prized Italian President Giorgio Napolitano,
    Back in October of 2006, I received the book and vaccinated adult o. .. right to life? “, Then I received a letter of response from his advisor for the Press and Information in which you can read, among other things: <>. I am so earnestly ask you, Mr. President, since 2006 what has changed? How many other victims of these absurd practices dealt for prevention, were added to the already long list of previous years? Mr President I think it’s time that someone of the relevant institutions, as is said in the letter, instead of continuing to reassure the public good-naturedly as I still use them to do, really and thoroughly investigated to determine finally the famous and always highly praised parameter “cost / benefit” to finally determine with precision the number of vaccine damage occurred, in addition to the official statistics of the Veneto Region alone have been able to show over the years dal1995 2005. The undersigned, appointed since 2007 by the Ministry of Health as representative of Vaccine Damaged by Italians, as has already resulted in the Ministerial these data, but unfortunately at that place is continuing to make “a deaf ear,” I ask you earnestly, with father’s heart in his hand, that such research, I repeat that until now have been carried out only from the Veneto region, should be extended throughout the national territory, in order to avoid further needless tragedies like the one my family, as well as countless other , has been forced to endure.
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/GiorgioNapolitano/51720806778?ref=mf#!/photo.php?pid=259356&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=51720806778&id=100000877344712

  400. Snoozie says:

    Marsha, that is some serious pot calling the kettle black, there.

  401. Snoozie says:

    Hear hear! Excellent points!

  402. Snoozie says:

    Lisa, I am assuming that your school is connected to the Church. They are far more capable of interpreting Vatican letters than you are and have EVERY right to instruct you. I also told you to talk to your parish priest. And I really believe that they were clear that vaccines work and are necessary.

  403. Snoozie says:

    Incorrect, Steve. Most vaccines do not make money for pharmaceutical companies (who are trying to abandon vaccine production) or pediatricians.

  404. Staci McIntosh says:

    I am absolutely amazed by so many of these comments. It baffles me how there can be so many falling for big pHARMa’s lies. If half of you people would do your research instead of just being sheep and doing what you are told then the world would be a much healthier place. The proof is there that vaccines cause Autism….the ingredients are proven harmful…it even states the MANY side-effects of them and yet you have the audacity to say they are safe. I know way too many people that have been SEVERLY injured after vaccination and will NEVER be the same. Many have proof that their illnesses were caused by vaccines…they have been reported to VAERS and have received compensation financially. Vaccines do not prevent disease and often cause it! I hope for your children’s sake you will do some honest research. For all of you parents that have done your research, good for you!! Your children are so fortunate to have you as parents!

  405. ChrisKid says:

    Staci, you say the proof is there that vaccines cause autism. Can you show it to us? Some of the many studies that there must be for you to have come to that conclusion. Reports to VAERS won’t cut it, since they aren’t verified before they are reported, but afterward if possible.
    I’m as baffled as you claim to be about why you would just assume that anybody who disagrees with you has not done any research at all. What gives you the right to think you know everything? Seems like the height of arrogance to me.
    Now, if you can show us your proof for what you’re claiming? That would help the discussion a lot.

  406. ChrisKid says:

    Marsha, I know how much you love those cute little phrases you use all the time, but could you tone it down a bit? Also , just once, could you actually post something factual instead of just threatening some big, earth-shattering information at some later date? If you have it why isn’t it in that post, instead of silly threats/promises? as for your irrelevant comparison of Wakefield and Thorsen – yes, Poul Thorsen has been indicted for fraud. More like embezzlement, really, and I haven’t seen one person defend him for that. But the fraud of which he’s accused is financial, and after the fact. The study was already published a couple of years before any of the actions he’s been indicted for. On the other hand, Wakefield’s fraud was directly related to the ‘research’ he was doing. He took money to provide the results he ‘found’ in the study. He abused children to do the study in the first place. And without any of that, his study results were, quite simply, wrong. Even if they hadn’t been totally falsified by him, they’ve never been replicated. Which, in scientific terms, means they aren’t valid. I wish you understood the basics of what you keep talking about.
    Oh, and while we’re talking about this, can you explain your contention that Wakefield knew he was sacrificing his career? How would that have happened if his research was so good and so right?
    \

  407. Staci McIntosh says:

    Proof are the families that are a huge part of my life! Watching a child be completely normal to not being able to go to the bathroom on their own, no longer able to say “mama” or “dada”…. Or no words at all for that matter, go from playing and interacting with other children to not even wanting to be held by their parents or wanting to hold hands with their siblings. I could go on and on. The fact is they were fine before the vaccine … Pictures, videos, people to prove it. I won’t go back and forth on here as it is a complete waste of time arguing with ignorant people like you and/or people that only gain finacially by keeping the truth a secret from the public. Call me arrogant if you must for being so sure of being right.

  408. ChrisKid says:

    Laura, the problem isn’t that you want to make sure people make a sound decision about vaccination. The problem is that your version of a sound decision isn’t based on science but on your personal perception.

  409. ChrisKid says:

    In other words, who cares about any child but mine? Nice attitude. Another reason I worry about your children growing up with my grandchildren. I’ve never seen so many people freely admit incredible selfishness, and a desire to teach their children that way.

  410. ChrisKid says:

    Yep, you’re so abused and picked on, and everybody is wrong but you. But the first thing you do is lie about anybody and everybody who doesn’t happen to accept everything you say at face value.
    Thinking people know who has the ill will here. Yes, they do. Which is why I’m not worried about you misleading anyone.

  411. ChrisKid says:

    Marsha, McLelland, mistress of the Gish Gallop.

  412. ChrisKid says:

    How about a researcher who was paid directly by a personal injury lawyer, and indirectly by the taxpayers he was planning to help exploit? How about a researcher who was already setting up a business plan to make millions from a product directly related to his research? Would you consider that a conflict of interest?

  413. Suzanne says:

    Chris Kid, the onus is not on the consumer to supply the proof of safety and efficacy but on the manufacturer. It is also the responsibility of the poweres that be to ensure that said safety and efficacy studies are performed fully and completely. If this conversation were about any other medical intervention, the stuff would be off the shelves so fast my head would spin. Think Vicks Nasal Spray, Tylenol, think Thalidomide, if you like – or don’t think at all if you prefer that. The point is that the USA is a democracy, not a fascist regime. To enforce mandatory vaccines in a democratic nation is outside of anything that is acceptable policially, morally or medically. Informed consent is a basic and protected right of all citizens, despite all.

  414. ChrisKid says:

    Steve, do you understand what I mean when I say ‘confounding factors’? The study as you propose it would be meaningless. There is no way to match those children demographically. Especially over the time frames you’re considering. But the studies that have been done, hundreds of them, covering pretty much every aspect of safety and efficacy for every vaccine and combinations of them, show an overwhelming consensus in favor of both those things. The Amish might be substantially healthier than the rest of the population, but I’d ask you to show us how you know that. And while you’re at it, you might want to check out that claim that they don’t eat processed foods. I’m willing to concede that they probably eat less junk food, but don’t make blanket statements like that, okay? Or maybe I should ask the Amish authors of my Amish cookbook why they lied in their recipes.

  415. ChrisKid says:

    Why don’t you just post these documents, instead of posting that ‘soon you’ll see’ stuff. If you’ve got it, just post it, for crying out loud.

  416. Toby Dawson says:

    I held off on the MMR and DTP pre-school booster until Nathan was already in platschool and then we watched a talking playing fun loving diplomat to be become a wordless screaming headbanger; I have video and documentary proof of this – and a very detailed timeline that shows the damaging afftermath of each vaccination. Vaccines are a 100 year old mistake and the pharmaceutical giants who have billions invested in that mistake and make billions from continuing to poison and kill innocents know this; take a look at the Amish Community who do not vaccinate and do not have Autism. Then come back and have another think before you buy the lies of the Pharmafia reps. http://gdsajj.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/no-autism-in-unvaccinated-amish-community-except-those-adopted/

  417. Lisa says:

    @ Laura and @ Marsha and @ others who have had children damaged by vaccines or sickened by them, I pray your kids get the healing they need from doctors who specialize in it. Time cannot be wasted once a child’s immune system is assaulted. This is a big problem for marriages as I have read in some of your comments. I decided long before marriage and pregancy I was not going to vaccinate. My husband was old school. He allowed me time and gave me peace. Sadly his best friend’s child became autistic after vaccination. Our children are 5 months apart in age. I told his best friend’s wife when she was still pregnant I was going to say no to every vaccination and she said I was so brave to be assertive with the doctors, and she couldn’t do it herself. 10 years ago I heard Dr. Laura Slessinger tell a woman her husband was dangerous b/c he was anti-vaccine. I hope her opinion has changed. This is a big deal in marriages and needs to be brought up in pre-marital counseling.

  418. ChrisKid says:

    The manufacturers have provided proof, but you refuse to accept it because it comes from the manufacturers. And proof has been provided by independent entities, but you refuse to accept it because ‘they’ve been paid off’.
    I have to go for a bit, but just quickly, you can stop using Thalidomide as an example, since it was pulled as soon as the problem showed up, and more important, the use that caused the problem was off-label, as I understand it. Can’t blame the manufacturer for people using a product in ways it wasn’t approved or tested for. Kind of like the Geier clinics, using Lupron, right?

  419. ChrisKid :Marsha, I know how much you love those cute little phrases you use all the time, but could you tone it down a bit? Also , just once, could you actually post something factual instead of just threatening some big, earth-shattering information at some later date? If you have it why isn’t it in that post, instead of silly threats/promises? as for your irrelevant comparison of Wakefield and Thorsen – yes, Poul Thorsen has been indicted for fraud. More like embezzlement, really, and I haven’t seen one person defend him for that. But the fraud of which he’s accused is financial, and after the fact. The study was already published a couple of years before any of the actions he’s been indicted for. On the other hand, Wakefield’s fraud was directly related to the ‘research’ he was doing. He took money to provide the results he ‘found’ in the study. He abused children to do the study in the first place. And without any of that, his study results were, quite simply, wrong. Even if they hadn’t been totally falsified by him, they’ve never been replicated. Which, in scientific terms, means they aren’t valid. I wish you understood the basics of what you keep talking about.Oh, and while we’re talking about this, can you explain your contention that Wakefield knew he was sacrificing his career? How would that have happened if his research was so good and so right?\

    Look, chriskid. I am not being drawn into your web of deception where the back & forth useless banter, designed to distract, takes away from what can be learned here. So do your own homework. There’s no need for me to explain anything to you. I sent 5 to 6 hours worth of fact & evidence that answered all questions & cleared the good name of Wakefield for you to research & you didn’t or you would not still be in the dark & asking ridiculous questions.
    You said;
    “yes, Poul Thorsen has been indicted for fraud. More like embezzlement, really, and I haven’t seen one person defend him for that.”
    Right! And where’s the media coverage? Can you answer that? A good man gets framed & it’s nation wide news & a bad man who stole, was indicted & part of the cover up using fraudulent studies, gets not a word. How fair is that? It’s criminal & it’s time we all toned things up. Contact media & tell them we want Thorsen in the news, people.

  420. Lisa says:

    @Toby, you are right. This is a decision that can’t be reversed, and healing is slow or unlikely if the right intervention is not undertaken quickly. The Amish community have a wonderful spiritual foundation that crosses over into their health decisions. Shots and most pills take away your empowerment and leave you feeling bad about yourself. We aren’t meant to live that way. There are other answers if people are willing to seek. I am dedicated to that as a former mental health therapist who saw the psychiatric abuse from drugs, now as a chiropractor I offer drug free solutions so people can live life to the fullest.

  421. The children is the science. The science you represent has been proven to be fraud. Didn’t you see the massive amount of evidence people posted here. Are you blind?

  422. The children “are” the science. Sorry. I’m very tired trying to help thwart the deception rearing its ugly head, here.

  423. But fact is you have all seen the research so since you’re still in denial it’s obvious your views are born out of misconception.
    I don’t say that, the facts of the evidence does & there’s wayyyyy to much to be ignored.
    Case closed!

  424. No comments? That’s a big ole tell.

  425. No comments, again? Another big “tell” that says it all.

  426. But in your heart, deep in the recesses, you know it is.

  427. No comments, still? Yet, another “tell”, huh?

  428. Liz Ditz says:

    This is actually what Cochrane reports re evidence of efficacy for homeopathy
    http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/homeopathy
    ===
    There is currently little evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy for the treatment of ADHD. Development of optimal treatment protocols is recommended prior to further randomised controlled trials being undertaken.
    ===
    There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma.
    ===
    No evidence that homeopathy is effective in treating dementia
    Dementia is a distressing illness that has major implications for individuals with the disease and their carers. Homeopathy is a popular type of complementary medicine. It is however controversial because although there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo, no one understands how it could work. The researchers did not find any good quality trials and so cannot say whether it is or is not effective for treating this condition. As no information is available on how much homeopathy is used for dementia, it is difficult to say whether it is important to conduct more trials.
    ===
    Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes
    Main results
    Seven studies were included in the review, three prevention trials (number of participants (n) = 2265) and four treatment trials (n = 1194). Only two studies reported sufficient information to complete data extraction fully. There was no evidence that homoeopathic treatment can prevent influenza-like syndrome (relative risk (RR) 0.64, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.28 to 1.43). Oscillococcinum treatment reduced the length of influenza illness by 0.28 days (95% CI 0.50 to 0.06). Oscillococcinum also increased the chances that a patient considered treatment to be effective (RR 1.08; 95% CI 1.17 to 1.00).
    ====
    Homoeopathy for induction of labour
    There is not enough evidence to show the effect of homoeopathy for inducing labour. Sometimes it is necessary to induce labour (getting labour started artificially) when a pregnant woman or her unborn child are at risk. Homoeopathy involves the use of diluted substances which in their undiluted form, cause certain symptoms. The principle is that a homoeopathic substance will stimulate the body and healing functions so that a state of balance is gained and symptoms are relieved. The review of two trials, involving 133 women, found there was not enough evidence to show the effect of a homoeopathy as a method of induction. More research is needed.
    Main results
    Two trials, involving 133 women, were included in the review. The trials were placebo controlled and double blind, but the quality was not high. Insufficient information was available on the method of randomisation and the study lacked clinically meaningful outcomes. This trials demonstrated no differences in any primary or secondary outcome between the treatment and control group.
    ===

  429. AnnPC says:

    What I don’t understand is that you say “strong evidence that suggest vaccines did not cause any of the injuried I mentioned.” Are you a medical doctor. Because my medical doctors, board certified, and from various fields of medicine, have told me they believe (based on their research, experience, and OUR medical history) that the vaccines did cause our damage. I have a case in federal vaccine court and the special master believes so as well based on the evidence. For what it’s worth, I am glad your children did not react and you have never reacted to a vaccine. Because it is awful to nearly lose your life at the age of 28 for a Hep B vaccine for Hep B you never would have gotten in the 1st place.

  430. AnnPC says:

    Thank you Nordica and ALL those who support me. I am not trying to manipulate anyone, as Kelly stated. I simply want my point of view heard so that people can make an informed decision. Kelly keep saying I am making it up and making logical leaps. I have medical reports in vaccine court and a dozen medical doctors who confirm what happened to me. My case will be adjudicated and posted on the vaccine court site later this year…then people can decide. In the end Kelly, I wish I could say it hurts me feeling that you say I am “delusional” and that i “disgust” you. Guess we can agree to disagree. I am not having an emotional response to you, as you have had to me. It is apparent that my story struck a nerve with you. Whether that is good or bad I don’t know, but I am THRILLED at the discussion and educated responses to the debate. Again, I APPRECIATE the supportive message…those mean the world to me.

  431. AnnPC says:

    I appreciate you speaking out as well. I am sorry that it has to get so personally nasty. I have pondered the autism/Amish link before after some physician friends of mine in Amish country brought it up to me. In the community up in OH and PA it is widely accepted that the few autism cases they have seen is from the rise in vaccination rates in the communities. The interesting part, is unlike the rest of use exposed to an impure food supply and chemicals galore, they are pretty clear of other toxins that may cause or be related to autism. I heard a doctor say on CNN that there may be a link to dog shampoo and autism. I guess that is more ACCEPTABLE and REALISTIC to believe that dog shampoo is more likely than vaccines (that we inject directly into the bloodstream dozens and dozens of time). I don’t know of any unvaccinated kids with autism and I personally know dozens of parents of autistic kids (this may be a selection bias since so few kids are unvaccinated before the nasty responses occur).

  432. AnnPC says:

    Shelli, so so so sorry. I know it helps to hear that people are sorry and believe what happened to your son. How people can attack those of us who have damaged children or are damaged ourselves, I don’t understand. I understand them wanting to push vaccines, but why they can’t accept that some children are damaged (it is in ALL vaccine inserts that even people during clinical trial are damaged and in post-marketing research it is documented as well). I guess they think the National Vaccine Compensation Fund is a sham and no one is injured permanently or killed. The billions in the fund and process of the Vaccine Court indicates otherwise. So many people who had doctors and expert say they were injured, didn’t get compensated, and so it is VERY difficult to prove the cases, but hundreds so every year. I hade NO idea about the compensation fund when I vax my daughter, or I would have thought twice. Interesting, NONE of my state OR federal legislators and NOT EVEN MY PEDIATRICIAN, knew of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund. Now that…is the most terrifying of all to me!!! Shelli…I will never forgive myself either knowing that me not questioning and blindly following the “rules” led to all this suffereing of my daughter. I have to take respoonsibilty of what happened to me and allowing my job to dicate the vaccine, but I can’t reconcile my choice the vaccinate her on the recommended schedule. Delaying or not as many at once may have helped, but I did what the recommended trusting ther CDC and FDA. I am sorry to all mother’s, on either side, who lose children or have permanently damaged kids. It’s a difficult choice and I don’t make light of it and I don’t want to villify anyone on either side. Shelly…I believe you and I will pray for your son and keep the fight up to let people know OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE LOSSES!!!

  433. Elisabeth says:

    BS that you wished him well. Your exact words “I hope your son doesn’t get sick because someone else fell for anti-vax fear-mongering or would that just be karma?” strongly show that you were not seriously wishing him well, you were threatening that any illness he contracted would be her deserved “karma”.
    My reading comprehension is just fine… it is your willingness to be truthful that is seriously lacking.
    Obviously you are not interested in any serious type of discourse. You simply like to throw out ad hominems and pretend innocence when called on them.
    As for reading comprehension, did you pick up on the point that I said that my scientific journal access is at WORK? I’ll be happy to post pertinent studies once it is no longer the weekend.

  434. AnnPC says:

    Gary…simply…when it happens to you PERSONALLY…you don’t give a damn about studies. PERIOD!!!!!!!
    Sorry Kimsense…it’s awful! My husband had a severe reaction to the Pertussis vaccine 40 yrs ago (thankfully no permanent damage) but the doctor told my mother-in-law that he would be better off with pertussis than risking another shot. Anectdotal or not, it happened. When I asked my pediatrician whether my husband’s reaction was a problem for vax my daughter, he replied with a staunch “absolutely not…no genetic relationship at all…and the shots are different than when your husband took them so there will be no problem” yet she ended up vaccine-injured. Anecdotal or not…it’s all true! We have seen in the story above one mother’s heartbreaking, anecdotal story, and in the responses seen MANY more on the other side of the debate. Any injury to a child is sad to me and no mother should be villified.

  435. AnnPC says:

    I breastfed my son…and had my heavy metals checked before I did so…why does everyone assume that if you question vaccines you are uninformed and uneducated? Research, that everyone loves to quote, indicated those who question vaccines are more highly educated (at least when measured by level of highest education attained).

  436. AnnPC says:

    Elisabeth,
    I think that the provax people are THRILLED when unvaccinated kids get sick because it “shows us.” That is the difference between the sides. I don’t want anyone’s child to be sick ever for any reason, vax or not. I did take it as she would be thrilled if my son got chicken pox. I had it and my sister did and my husband did and my DAUGHTER did after her VACCINE at 18 months. Chicken pox may be annoying, but I’d take it anyday over the reactions. Like I said, I know a child who at 4 became blind and paralyzed for the 2nd booster of Chkpox vax. My pediatrician TRIED to scare me into getting my daughter the 2nd one, even after her severe reaction at 18 months that landed her in hospital, and told me “you know 100 children a year DIE from the chicken pox.” I asked “what is the number that die from the vaccine?” He did not know and simply walked away and never spoke of it again. Even if Kelly wish illness of my son, I know there are ENOUGH people who wish him health. I appreciate your support Elisabeth!!!

  437. AnnPC says:

    Again, there was no false assumption, as I posted in response earlier, physicians (in written reports by the way) have stated that they believe our injuries are due to vaccine. Again, it was based on their research, experience, and our PERSONAL and FAMILY health history. There was no assumption by me…the doctors involved were a family doctor, internal medicine doctor, pediatricians, an immunologist, an infection disease specialist, hematologist, OBGYN, and several rheumatologists. I saw doctors all over the country includeing the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, specialists in Wisconsin, and Texas who concurred. I think you lost this one Kelly…but so did I since I am the damaged one with a sick kid.

  438. Virginia Young says:

    All too often those who hear of vaccine injury who do not have an obvious history of vaccine reactions say something to the effect of “So what…my kids didn’t react”. Well that’s just great for you…so happy for you! Now answer me this. Have you ever met someone who reacts violently to something? Let’s say peanuts. When you hear the story of a child that reacts to peanuts do you tell the mom “So what?” I know I say something more like “Sorry to hear that. I will be sure not to feed your child peanut products,” When some one loses a loved one to a car accident do say, “What’s your point?” If a friend has anaphylaxis after a medication do you “Get over it and just take the d@#$ stuff”. I doubt it and I hope not. The only reason we have this reaction to shots is FEAR. Fear of disease, Fear of death. Fear of the unknown. Fear that has been stirred up inside us by an industry that has been making billions of dollars based on our fears and this industry stands to lose much more if we choose to live without them.

  439. AnnPC says:

    Virginia, did you see how nasty some were? Kelly is disgusted by me and believes my child is an “acceptable loss” (because the vaccines didn’t do the the damage the doctors said anyway).

  440. kimsense says:

    Shannon, as an obvious autism advocate, i’m surprised that you would play dirty pool and criticize other autism moms. Vaccines or not, we are all trying to do the best for our kids. We fight for them everyday. Being on a board like this shows we all are fighting. A mother who doesn’t care wouldn’t come here or do any research or talking. They walk away. I know, I advocate for 300 myself. Get over your bad attitude toward other moms. We love our kids fiercely!

  441. Kelly says:

    First Ann says: “I have a daughter who had severe reactions to vaccines, but I kept vaccinating because her doctor said the reactions were normal.”
    Here reactions were NORMAL. In other words, the doctor didn’t agree that her daughter was vaccine damaged.
    But not to worry, because Ann the says:
    “After what happened to me, I had my doctors examine her records and they (medical doctors) agreed that she had reacted and her damage was permanent as well.”
    So Ann shopped around until she found doctors that agreed with her. This was important because she needed someone to testify on her behalf for vaccine court.
    Then she says “I have a case in federal vaccine court and the special master believes so as well based on the evidence.”
    Notice that she neglects to mention that the special master does not rule on causality. The standard of evidence is lower in vaccine court than regular court. All she has to do is present plausibility. Just because the special master ruled in your favour, does not mean the vaccines caused your’s or your daughter’s injuries. Just because you believe the vaccines are responsible and your paid doctors believe the vaccines are responsible, does not mean that the vaccines are responsible.
    Ann also said “with history of vaccine reaction in my husband to the pertussis vaccine, mine to the Hep B, and my daughter to Chx Pox as well as most of the others”, but then she later says “My daughter developed severe eczema immediately after her 4 month shots. I have had pediatrician, family docs, and her immunologist confirm the trend based on review of her records. They are certain her immune damage was do to the combination of shots upon shots without allowing any recovery. ” and “My husband had a severe reaction to the Pertussis vaccine 40 yrs ago (thankfully no permanent damage) but the doctor told my mother-in-law that he would be better off with pertussis than risking another shot. Anectdotal or not, it happened. When I asked my pediatrician whether my husband’s reaction was a problem for vax my daughter, he replied with a staunch “absolutely not…no genetic relationship at all…and the shots are different than when your husband took them so there will be no problem” yet she ended up vaccine-injured.”
    So what vaccine is it that damaged your daughter Ann? Chicken pox? Combination vaccine at 4 months? Pertussis? Your credibility would improve if you could keep your story straight.

  442. Kelly says:

    Thrilled? Really Ann? You think we are thrilled when people get sick from a preventable disease? So much easier to dismiss us when you think we are evil jerks that wish illness on your child, isn’t Ann?
    For the record, I do this because I don’t want people to fall for liars like you, Ann. I don’t want to see people sick because they have been mislead by anti-vaxers like you, Ann. I wish your son never gets sick because of your ignorance, which is why I beg of you to stop planting seeds of doubt on vaccines. Your child depends on herd immunity for his protection.
    Arguing with anti-vaxers is a waste of time, but I was asked to comment here. If just one parent reads my comments and comes to realize the anti-vax position is based on misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies, then all the ad hominems against me are worth it. I know that anti-vaxers are threatened by me. I know that it creates a cognitive dissonance within them so severe that they have to discredit me somehow to maintain their sense of well-being. Since they cannot counter the science, they go after my character. They will lie about my character in order to do so. Like Elisabeth. I wished Ann’s son well, but Elisabeth refuses to believe it. I truly do hope karma doesn’t catch up with Ann. I truly, truly do.
    And Elisabeth, what ad hominems have I used? Go through my posts and show me exactly where I have dismissed anybody’s argument by solely calling them names. Then make a list of the names people have called me.
    Let’s start with you. You have called me a liar not because you have any evidence I was lying, just because you believe I was. Furthermore, you did not mention that your links were at work in your post. I’ll be looking forward to reading them.

  443. Many here are with you Ann. Don’t let the fact Kelly is able to write what seems to be a convincing letter get to you because the people paying attention, who count, can see right through her. I do believe she may be a professional who represents those with vested interests we are up aginst. The “tells” are all there as I have been pointing out.

  444. AnnPC says:

    I am in no way lying. I don’t believe you are either…I think you are just a bitter, nasty person. Your posts are the nastiest I have seen…which leads me to think you are a fairly unhappy and miserable person and need to discredit people like me to feel better about yourself and your choices. You can call me a liar, but that doesn’t make it so.

  445. ChrisKid says:

    Nobody got framed. It doesn’t take two years of hearings and thousands of pages of documentation to frame anyone. And tell us this, if Wakefield had all that evidence to exonerate himself during that hearing, why didn’t he present it? If he was so totally innocent, why didn’t he file the appeal he said he would? Or does he just not care about those children because he has a whole new group of parents to dupe?

  446. ChrisKid says:

    Nothing I’ve said here has been ‘designed’ for anything but to find out what support you have for the repeated assertions you’ve made. And you continue to refuse to provide that. If by 5 to 6 hours worth of fact and evidence you mean that list of totally unrelated studies, why don’t you give us something that really means what you say it means? And you do realize that even IF those studies were relevant, it doesn’t speak to the fraud aspect or the ethics violations, right? The man cheated the taxpayers, hurt and endangered children, and frightened parents, and still you defend him. What does that say about your ethics?
    Now, would you like to post something that actually does clear his name?

  447. AnnPC says:

    My child had a severe reaction to the chicken pox vaccine and there was no permanent damage that we can tie to that one. It was her vaccines as a infant that did the substantial damage. There is a difference between adverse reaction (that is time-limited) and vaccine injury (which can be permanent).
    I did not doctor shop. I have not seen a doctor that didn’t see the temporal relation and my permanent damages are ALL very common and listed in the Hep B insert so it wasn’t a HUGE leap for the doctors to make the connection. Guillain Barre (neurological condition)is one of the most common vaccine reactions, and it can be time-limited or permanent. None of MY doctors are experts in my case…my treating physicians have nothing to to with the case…the goverment found experts that I have not met and only read my medical records. One thing you didn’t take into account in your discussion of vaccine court…is that it is difficult to even find experts to testify…because many of them are attacked and pro-vaxers target them and try to take their licenses away. It is relatively DIFFICULT to get through the process for this reason. NONE of my doctors wanted the risk of being on the GOVERNMENT radar to be targeted. I had ONE doctor tell me she wants to remain under the government radar because many doctors have had licenses pulled when they testified in vaccine court. Interesting when you see the fear…my rheumatologist almost had a heart attack at any mention of his name being in my record for fear of retaliation. He said he had a family to support and knows how the system punished doctors who spoke up. You can call me a liar all you want and you can believe it in your heart…that doesn’t make me one! Do you really think I need you to believe me? Really? It is clear to me the kind of person you are and your personal attacks are unwarranted and discredit you. I really don’t plan to respond to you anymore and I would be SHOCKED if anyone read your mean-spirited and emotional attacks and it convinced them of your beliefs. In fact, it may be the other way around.

  448. ChrisKid says:

    Yeah, Marsha, it’s a big ol’ tell that people have other things to do than constantly look for your nonsense. Some people have lives, you know. Sorry if you don’t get that.

  449. percival says:

    It’s a big ole tell that you are perseverating on your own comments at one-to-two minute intervals, Marsha.

  450. Chris says:

    1 The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559­-63
    J Pediatr. 1999 Nov;135(5):559-63.
    Gastrointestinal abnormalities in children with autistic disorder.
    Horvath K, Papadimitriou JC, Rabsztyn A, Drachenberg C, Tildon JT.
    Department of Pediatrics, University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
    J Pediatr. 2001 Mar;138(3):366-72.
    Colonic CD8 and gamma delta T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism.
    Furlano RI, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, McGarvey L, Thomson MA, Davies SE, Berelowitz M, Forbes A, <b<Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    University Department of Paediatric Gastroenterology, the Inflammatory Bowel Diseases Study Group, Royal Free and University College School of Medicine, London, United Kingdom.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
    J Clin Immunol. 2003 Nov;23(6):504-17.
    Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.
    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Walker-Smith JA, Wakefield AJ.
    The Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group, and Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free and University College, Medical School, London, United Kingdom.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005
    This is one year of a journal, not a paper. Again, you are asked to provide proper cites.
    5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
    Brain Behav Immun. 1993 Mar;7(1):97-103.
    Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior.
    Singh VK, Warren RP, Odell JD, Warren WL, Cole P.
    Biomedical Division, Center for Persons with Disabilities, Logan, Utah.
    How does a paper written written in 1993 replicate a 1998 paper, through time travel? Also no mention of any MMR vaccine.
    6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
    “The following term was not found in PubMed: Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28[All Fields].”
    Again, you are asked to provide proper cites.
    7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85
    Neuropsychobiology. 2005;51(2):77-85.
    Dysregulated innate immune responses in young children with autism spectrum disorders: their relationship to gastrointestinal symptoms and dietary intervention.
    Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Zimmerman-Bier B.
    Department of Pediatrics, New Jersey Medical School, UMDNJ, Newark, NJ 07101-1709, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5­):605-10
    J Pediatr. 2005 May;146(5):605-10.
    Evaluation of an association between gastrointestinal symptoms and cytokine production against common dietary proteins in children with autism spectrum disorders.
    Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Reddy C, Zimmerman-Bier B.
    Department of Pediatrics, Division of Pulmonary, Allergy/Immunology, and Infectious Diseases, New Jersey Medical School/UMDNJ, 185 South Orange Avenue, Newark, NJ 07101-1709, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
    Not found in PubMed. Again, you are asked to provide proper cites. It is, however this:
    Autism Insights 2009:2 1-11.
    Clinical Presentation and Histologic Findings at Ileocolonoscopy in Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Chronic Gastrointestinal Symptoms
    Krigsman, A
    Krigsman is a colleague of Dr. Wakefield, plus Wakefield had been an editor of that vanity journal. It is not independent.
    10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
    Can J Gastroenterol. 2009 Feb;23(2):95-8.
    Autistic enterocolitis: fact or fiction?
    Galiatsatos P, Gologan A, Lamoureux E.
    Department of Medicine, The Sir Mortimer B Davis Jewish General Hospital, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
    “Two autism spectrum disorder patients with chronic intestinal symptoms and abnormal endoscopic findings are described, followed by a review of this controversial topic.”
    A case report on two persons, not a dozen children, and no mention of any MMR vaccine.
    11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3)­: 148-161
    Ann Clin Psychiatry. 2009 Jul-Sep;21(3):148-61.
    Phenotypic expression of autoimmune autistic disorder (AAD): a major subset of autism.
    Singh VK.
    Brain State International Research Center, Scottsdale, AZ 85260, USA.
    A summary of research, with no mention of what chilren. I found the atual paper (hxxps: // dub dub dub dot aacp.com/Pages.asp?AID=7937&issue=&page=C&UID=), and among the data used it included a Wakefield paper. Not independent. Also included in the references were papers from questionable journals like Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons and Medical Veritas. Plus there have been critisms of Dr. Singh’s work in the past, which might explain why he is not longer assiciated with any university.
    12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
    Not found on PubMed, again you are asked to use proper cites.
    13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13
    J Autism Dev Disord. 2009 Mar;39(3):405-13. Epub 2008 Sep 13.
    Gastrointestinal symptoms in a sample of children with pervasive developmental disorders.
    Nikolov RN, Bearss KE, Lettinga J, Erickson C, Rodowski M, Aman MG, McCracken JT, McDougle CJ, Tierney E, Vitiello B, Arnold LE, Shah B, Posey DJ, Ritz L, Scahill L.
    Yale Child Study Center, Yale University, P.O. Box 207900, New Haven, CT, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:13­3-144.
    Med Hypotheses. 1998 Aug;51(2):133-44.
    Autism and Clostridium tetani.
    Bolte ER.
    First off, this is not a peer reviewed journal (look up the word “hypothesis”). Second it is on tetanus! No mention of any MMR vaccine, nor on the gastrointestinal issues.
    15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429­-35
    J Child Neurol. 2000 Jul;15(7):429-35.
    Short-term benefit from oral vancomycin treatment of regressive-onset autism.
    Sandler RH, Finegold SM, Bolte ER, Buchanan CP, Maxwell AP, Väisänen ML, Nelson MN, Wexler HM.
    Section of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Rush Children’s Hospital, Rush Medical College, Chicago, IL 60612, USA.
    Eleven is less than twelve, and no mention of any MMR vaccine. Plus it was an experimental treatment, nothing like Wakefield’s study.
    16. Lancet. 1972;2:883­884.
    Lancet. 1972 Oct 21;2(7782):883-4.
    Alpha-1-antitrypsin, autism, and coeliac disease.
    Walker-Smith J, Andrews J.
    Seriously, what is with the time travel? And it has nothing to do with Wakefield’s study, and is by one of his colleagues (so not independent even with a Tardis).
    17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62
    J Autism Child Schizophr. 1971 Jan-Mar;1(1):48-62.
    Malabsorption and cerebral dysfunction: a multivariate and comparative study of autistic children.
    Goodwin MS, Cowen MA, Goodwin TC.
    More time travel, and no mention of any MMR. Which really was about to be approved in the USA.
    18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:3­66-372.
    J Pediatr. 2001 Mar;138(3):366-72.
    Colonic CD8 and gamma delta T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism.
    Furlano RI, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, McGarvey L, Thomson MA, Davies SE, Berelowitz M, Forbes A, Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    University Department of Paediatric Gastroenterology, the Inflammatory Bowel Diseases Study Group, Royal Free and University College School of Medicine, London, United Kingdom.
    It is a repeat of cite #2, and it is still not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375­382.
    Could not be found on PubMed, again you are reminded to use proper cites. But using Google I did find:
    Mol Psychiatry. 2002;7(4):375-82, 334.
    Small intestinal enteropathy with epithelial IgG and complement deposition in children with regressive autism.
    Torrente F, Ashwood P, Day R, Machado N, Furlano RI, Anthony A, Davies SE, Wakefield AJ, Thomson MA, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free & University College Medical School, London, UK.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors. Why is this just a difficult concept?
    20. American Journal of Gastroenterology April 2004;598-605.
    Am J Gastroenterol. 2004 Apr;99(4):598-605.
    Focal-enhanced gastritis in regressive autism with features distinct from Crohn’s and Helicobacter pylori gastritis.
    Torrente F, Anthony A, Heuschkel RB, Thomson MA, Ashwood P, Murch SH.
    The Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Department of Histopathology, Royal Free & University College Medical School, London.
    Independent replication means no one from the 1998 Lancet paper can be an author. Not independent, and nothing with any MMR vaccine.
    21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:50­4-517.
    J Clin Immunol. 2003 Nov;23(6):504-17.
    Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.
    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Walker-Smith JA, Wakefield AJ.
    The Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group, and Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free and University College, Medical School, London, United Kingdom.
    It cannot be independent if Wakefield or any of his colleagues are involved.
    22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1­2):126-34.
    J Neuroimmunol. 2006 Apr;173(1-2):126-34. Epub 2006 Feb 21.
    Immune activation of peripheral blood and mucosal CD3+ lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms.
    Ashwood P, Wakefield AJ.
    Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology, University of California at Davis, M.I.N.D. Institute, Wet Lab building, 50th Street, Sacramento, CA 95817, USA.
    It cannot be independent if Wakefield or any of his colleagues are involved.
    23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477.
    Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2006 Dec 30;30(8):1472-7. Epub 2006 Jul 24.
    Increased serum levels of glutamate in adult patients with autism.
    Shinohe A, Hashimoto K, Nakamura K, Tsujii M, Iwata Y, Tsuchiya KJ, Sekine Y, Suda S, Suzuki K, Sugihara G, Matsuzaki H, Minabe Y, Sugiyama T, Kawai M, Iyo M, Takei N, Mori N.
    Department of Psychiatry and Neurology, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, Hamamatsu, Shizuoka 431-3192,
    Since when are “adults” still children? Also, no mention of any MMR vaccine (and the Japanese version was different from the American vaccine).
    24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16
    Clin Infect Dis. 2002 Sep 1;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16.
    Gastrointestinal microflora studies in late-onset autism.
    Finegold SM, Molitoris D, Song Y, Liu C, Vaisanen ML, Bolte E, McTeague M, Sandler R, Wexler H, Marlowe EM, Collins MD, Lawson PA, Summanen P, Baysallar M, Tomzynski TJ, Read E, Johnson E, Rolfe R, Nasir P, Shah H, Haake DA, Manning P, Kaul A.
    Infectious Diseases Section, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, West Los Angeles, CA, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine, and mostly to do with some bacterial study.
    25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004;
    Again, this is just a journal and a year, not a paper. You really need to learn how to cite.
    26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991
    J Med Microbiol. 2005 Oct;54(Pt 10):987-91.
    Differences between the gut microflora of children with autistic spectrum disorders and that of healthy children.
    Parracho HM, Bingham MO, Gibson GR, McCartney AL.
    Food Microbial Sciences Unit, School of Food Biosciences, The University of Reading, Whiteknights, PO Box 226, Reading RG6 6AP, UK.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
    CARACTERÍSTICAS ENDOSCÓPICAS, HISTOLÓGICAS E INMUNOLÓGICAS DE LA
    MUCOSA DIGESTIVA EN NIÑOS AUTISTAS CON SÍNTOMAS GASTROINTESTINALES.
    Segundo Premio Trabajo Científico. LI Congreso Nacional de Pediatría 2005.
    Lenny González, Karolina López, Dianora Navarro, Lilia Negrón, Lucy Flores,
    Rosario Rodríguez, Marbelia Martínez, Aderbal Sabrá.
    Not in PubMed, but online (hxxp: //dub dub dub dot svpediatria.org/documentos/69Enero-Marzo.pdf”>here and includes Dr. Lenny Gonzalez, who is part of Thoughtful House and therefore it is not independent. No mention of MMR.
    28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303
    Not found in PubMed, because it is a poster presentation and never got published.

  451. I decided not to clog this thread by posting that massive amount of evidence to the corruption & fraud as well as proof of the toll these crimes against humanity have had on our people. If anyone wants to see the facts for themselves, thay are post #’s 395, 404, 405, 406, 410, 413 ,414

  452. Interesting?
    “Study Shows Newborn Monkeys Given Vaccines Do Not Develop Normally”
    http://babyminding.com/2009/09/30/study-shows-newborn-monkeys-given-vaccines-do-not-develop-normally/

  453. Liz Ditz says:

    Marsha wrote,

    worth of fact & evidence that answered all questions & cleared the good name of Wakefield

    I assume you are referring to that cut & paste list of 28 papers:

    here is a list of 28 studies from around the world that support Dr. Wakefield’­s controvers­ial findings.

    Relative to Wakefield and his studies, Marsha wrote,

    because not only has he continued his own studies, but since then, a large number of replication studies have been performed around the world, by other researchers, that confirm his initial findings.
    It’s been replicated in Canada, in the US., in Venezuela, in Italy[but] they never get mentioned. All you ever hear is that no one else has ever been able to replicate the findings.

    Marsha’s claims don’t square up with the published evidence.
    What needs to be replicated, a direct quote from Wakefield’s 1998 publication:

    We have identified a chronic enterocolitis in children that may be related to neuropsychiatric dysfunction. In most cases, onset of symptoms was after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Further investigations are needed to examine this syndrome and its possible relation to this vaccine.

    The list of 28 “studies” as supplied by Marsha on April 28, 2011, the correct references, and whether or not they validate Wakefield’s claim:
    1. The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559-63 = Horvath K., Papadimitriou J.C., Rabsztyn A., Drachenberg C., Tilden J.T. 1999. Gastrointestinal abnormalities in children with autism. J. Pediatrics 135: 559-563. Study did not look for measles virus. Did not appear to have controls with autism & without GI syptoms OR controls without autism & with similar GI symptoms. Most children with autism & GI symptoms had upper GI problems such as refluxIn no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”, which have been shown repeatedly to have been manufactured or the result of laboratory contamination.
    2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372 = Furlano RI, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, McGarvey L, Thomson MA, Davies SE, Berelowitz M, Forbes A, Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.. Colonic CD8 and T cell filtration with epithelial damage in children with autism. J Pediatr 2001;138:366-72. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517 = Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Wakefield AJ. Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology. Journal of Clinical Immunology, 2003;23:504-517. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work
    4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005 A meaningless citation as there is no way to know which article is being referred to. Supports nothing
    5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103 = Singh VK, Warren RP, Odell JD, Cole WP. Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993;7:97-103 Found some but not all children with autism had specific antibodies to myelin. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus.In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3 Citation not found. May refer to Singh VK, Jensen RL Elevated levels of measles antibodies in children with autism Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 292-294. To the best of my knowledge, this study has not been replicated, and the findings refuted by several other studies, such as Baird G, Pickles A, Simonoff E, Charman T, Sullivan P, Chandler S, Loucas T, Meldrum D, Afzal M, Thomas B, Jin L, Brown D. Measles vaccination and antibody response in autism spectrum disorders.
    Arch Dis Child. 2008 Oct;93(10):832-7. Epub 2008 Feb 5.

    7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85 = Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Zimmerman-Bier B. Dysregulated Innate Immune Responses in Young Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders: Their Relationship to Gastrointestinal Symptoms and Dietary Intervention. Neuropsychobiology. 2005;28:51 77-85 Study did not look for measles virus. Study evaluated inflammatory response to specific dietary proteinsIn no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5):605-10 = Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Reddy C, Zimmerman-Bier B. Evaluation of an association between gastrointestinal symptoms and cytokine production against common dietary proteins in children with autism spectrum disorders. J Pediatr.2005;146(5):605-10. Study did not look for measles virus. Study evaluated inflammatory response to specific dietary proteinsIn no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11 citation not found on PubMed. Possibly refers to Krigsman, A. , et al.,Clinical presentation and Histologic Findings at Ileocolonoscopy in children with Autistic spectrum Disorder and chronic Gastrointestinal symptoms Autism Insights 2010:2 1-11. Wakefield and Carol Stott (a contributor to this paper) are editors of the journal Autism Insights, therefore not an “independent replication” of the 1998 study.In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98 = Galiatsatos P, Gologan A, Lamoureux E, Autistic enterocolitis: Fact or fiction? Can J Gastroenterol. 2009:23:95-98 Case reports, featuring two adult patients with gastrointestinal problems and ASD diagnoses. The authors call for “more investigations” in their discussion. In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3): 148-161 = Singh VK. Phenotypic expression of autoimmune autistic disorder (AAD): a major subset of autism. Ann Clin Psychiatry. 2009 Jul-Sep;21(3):148-61. This paper makes assertions that are not supported by the evidence base in the paper. Given the weaknesses in the paper’s presentation, is not clear if the paper’s conclusion support Wakefield or not
    12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6 = No paper that matches this citation In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13 = Nikolov RN, Bearss KE, Lettinga J, Erickson C, Rodowski M, Aman MG, McCracken JT, McDougle CJ, Tierney E, Vitiello B, Arnold LE, Shah B, Posey DJ, Ritz L, Scahill L. Gastrointestinal symptoms in a sample of children with pervasive developmental disorders. J Autism Dev Disord. 2009 Mar;39(3):405-13. Epub 2008 Sep 13. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus. Study evaluated children previously diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorders (PDDs) for gastrointestinal (GI) symptoms. 22.7% were found to exhibit GI symptoms, but were otherwise no different from subjects without GI problems in demographic characteristics, measures of adaptive functioning, or autism symptom severity. In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:133-144. = Bolte, ER Autism and clostridium tetani Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:133-144. Speculative paper presenting the hypothesis that autism symptoms are caused by a subacute, chronic tetanus infection In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429-35 = Sandler R, Finegold SM., Bolte ER., et al. Short-term benefit from oral vancomycin treatment of regressive-onset autism. J Child Neurol. 2000;15:429-435 Study did not look for measles virus. Study evaluated 11 children’s response to a specific antibiotic. Gains faded following cessation of antibioticIn no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    16. Lancet. 1972;2:883-884 = Walker-Smith J, Andrews J. Alpha-1-antitrypsin, autism, and coeliac disease. Lancet. 1972 Oct 21;2(7782):883-4. A paper published decades previously cannot be said to “replicate” a later paper.In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62 = Goodwin MS, Cowen MA, Goodwin TC Malabsorption and cerebral dysfunction: a multivariate and comparative study of autistic children. J Autism Child Schizophr. 1971 Jan-Mar;1(1):48-62. A paper published decades previously cannot be said to “replicate” a later paper. In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:366-372. Same paper as #2 above. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375-382. Torrente F., Machado N., Perez-Machado M., Furlano R., Thomson M., Davies S., Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH. Enteropathy with T cell infiltration and epithelial IgG deposition in autism. Molecular Psychiatry. 2002;7:375-382. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    20. American Journal of Gastroenterolgy April 2004;598-605.= Torrente F, Anthony A, Heuschkel RB, Thomson MA, Ashwood P, Murch SH. Focal-enhanced gastritis in regressive autism with features distinct from Crohn’s and Helicobacter pylori gastritis. Am J Gastroenterol. 2004;99:598-605 Murch SH, Anthony A, Thompson MA, Torrente F and Ashwood P were previous co-authors with Wakefield A. Not independent replication In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:504-517 = Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Walker-Smith JA, Wakefield AJ. Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology. J Clin Immunol. 2003 Nov;23(6):504-17. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1-2):126-34 = Ashwood P, Wakefield AJ. Immune activation of peripheral blood and mucosal CD3+ lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms. J Neuroimmunol. 2006;173(1-2):126-34. Wakefield is a co-author; cannot be said to support his own work In no way “”replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477 = Shinohe A, Hashimoto K, Nakamura K, Tsujii M, Iwata Y, Tsuchiyaa KJ, Sekine Y, Suda S, Suzuki K, Sugihara G, Matsuzaki H, Minabe Y, Sugiyama T, Masayoshi Kawai M, Iyo M,Takei N and Mori N Increased serum levels of glutamate in adult patients with autism Progress in Neuro-Psychopharmacology and Biological Psychiatry Volume 30, Issue 8, 30 December 2006, Pages 1472-1477 Study of adults with autism on blood levels of amino acids. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus. In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16 = Finegold SM, Molitoris D, Song Y, Liu C, Vaisanen ML, Bolte E, McTeague M, Sandler R, Wexler H, Marlowe EM, Collins MD, Lawson PA, Summanen P, Baysallar M, Tomzynski TJ, Read E, Johnson E, Rolfe R, Nasir P, Shah H, Haake DA, Manning P, Kaul A. Gastrointestinal microflora studies in late-onset autism. Clin Infect Dis. 2002 Sep 1;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16. Stool samples from children with regressive autism were compared to samples from children without autism; differences in stool flora were found. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus. Study did not evaluate changes in gut structure In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004 Meaninless citation as there is no way to know which article is being referred to. In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991 = Parracho HM, Bingham MO, Gibson GR, McCartney AL. Differences between the gut microflora of children with autistic spectrum disorders and that of healthy children. J Med Microbiol. 2005 Oct;54(Pt 10):987-91. Study compared fecal flora for children with autism with two control groups: siblings without autism and unrelated children without autism. Minor differences were found. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus. Study did not evaluate changes in gut structure In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25. = González LG., López K, Navarro DC, Negrón L, Flores LS, Rodríguez R, Martínez M, Sabrá A. Características endoscópicas, histológicas e inmunológicas de la mucosa digestiva en niños autistas con síntomas gastrointestinales [Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with gastro-Intestinal Symptoms] Archivos Venezolanos de Puericultura y Pediatría Enero-Marzo 2006, Volúmen 69, Número 1 Arch Venez Pueri Pediatr 2006 69(1):19-25. 1. The authors cannot replicate Wakefield’s 1998 “findings” of a distinct autistic enterocolitis, although they do report a higher incidence of gastrointestinal problems in their autistic group. 2. It appears that the Gonzalez paper was funded by Thoughtful House, under Wakefield’s leadership verification In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”
    28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303 = Balzola F, Daniela C, Repici , Barbon V, Sapino ABarbera C, Calvo PL, Gandione M, Rigardetto R*, and Rizzetto M . Nine adult males with autism and GI symptoms were evaluated for GI disease. Study did not look for measles virus, nor did study look for mumps or rubella virus. Study did not evaluate changes in gut structure Meeting abstract; never published as a peer reviewed study. In no way “replicates” or “supports” Wakefield’s “findings”

  454. Steve Michaels says:

    I would if his name was Offitt! Would you? You see, here’s the problem, you hold one standard for your sources and another for other sources and fail to see ANY difference in degree. If Mercola makes money selling vitamins on his website (not directly related to the information he provides AND he specifically does NOT charge for any information or require any purchase from him for information) you call it an unforgiveable COI, but if Offitt made MILLIONS in royalties, and is paid indirectly by Merck through his bought and paid for research chair, you think he is beyond reproach. If Thorsen embezzled millions and admits that pertinent information was excluded from his study that biased the result towards the desired outcome and regulatory agencies pressured for publication of said results when, without pressure, they were rejected, then that’s okay. Your double standard is beyond a joke!

  455. Steve Michaels says:

    By the way, that research was from University of Pittsburgh NOT from Wakefield. Why do you ALWAYS bring up Wakefield? Because it’s all you’ve got and he is such an obvious fall guy that most people now recognize that he was victimized for coming up with the Earth-shattering conclusion: “more research is required’.

  456. Steve Michaels says:

    Well done Liz! Cochrane also reports that Swine Flu and seasonal flu vaccines have ZERO percent impact on infection rates or outcomes. Odd that you don’t mention that. Even odder, is that when I mention that, pro-vaxers start to attack the Cochrane Library as a biased source… Hmmmmm

  457. Steve Michaels says:

    I suggest you read John Virapen’s book. ALL manufacturer provided ‘proof’ is falsified. The FDA do not require the publishing of ANY manufacturing research that is not completed. As such, manufacturers undertake studies, fail to complete them, filter out those who showed preliminary harm and recommence the studies with those who have shown better tolerances until the subject group is of the highest tolerance level to the product. THEN they publish the study with the BEST results and bury all of the damaged subjects from the uncompleted studies. FDA calls it ‘trade secrets’. Merck called it ‘How to Get Vioxx approved after preliminary studies showed numerous deaths and over 20% of subjects in initial studies developing life threatening cardio problems’. And while Vioxx is the most covered case, this goes on for EVERY product pharma produce. Virapen is not some crankpot. He was the Top Dog for Eli Lilley Sweden.

  458. Suzanne says:

    Ingrid: “show me a SINGLE study that compares autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children”. If I had a penny for every time an anti-vaxer said that to me…well, you understand. People demand this be all and end all “study” over and over again, without understanding that it is an IMPOSSIBLE request.
    First of all, ethically, we cannot compare vaccinated and unvaccinated children. We cannot double blind a study and vaccinate or not vaccinate some kids, with the risk that is run with no vaccinating. If any child is damaged from a vaccine-preventable illness, the researcher would be held accountable for that damage, and that would be extremely irresponsible and unethical of the researcher.
    What utter rot. There are communities in the United States – large communities – that are unvaccinated.

  459. Jeff says:

    I don’t have long to comment on this blog, but I will like to point out an ignorant conversation I overheard the other day.
    There was this woman who was questioning why her daughter got sick after having been vaccinated:
    Woman 1: I don’t understand why my daughter got sick after being vaccinated.
    Woman 2: Well she probably got sick before the vaccine took effect, it usually takes a few weeks.
    Woman 1: She was vaccinated for the correct length of time.
    Woman 2: She got another strain.
    Woman 1: I think you are right, but she had the same symptoms as everyone else.
    Woman 3: I used to get sick every year when I was vaccinated, I passed out one time and broke my nose, so I said I will not get vaccinated again. It’s amazing, I haven’t been sick the two years I have refused the vaccination.
    True story. This makes me wonder, why defend something that obviously does nothing? I think people have been brainwashed by this huge corporation. Also, if you are relegious, you can find prophecy in the bible that talks about Pharma. Google bible and sorcery. sorcery is translated from a Greek word meaning pharmacia, and pharmacia means what we know today as pharmacy…research this.

  460. Steve Michaels says:

    The study is simple to do. No, it would not be double-blind placebo, BUT no study that you or ANY pro-vaxer refer to is a true DBPC study. None. Vaccination opt outs are registered by opt out forms for all attendees of public schools. There really are not that many children opting out so take all of the opt outs and select similar racial and socio-economic subjects from the vaccinated populations and compare health outcomes. Not just VPD rates, but ASD, diabetes, eczema, speech delay and other ADD type syndromes and cancers. All of those things anti-vaxers say are the long term risks of vaccination. Prove us all wrong and do the study! Why do pro-vaxers make it sooooo difficult. Probably because pro-vaxers and manufacturers already know what the outcome will be and thus refuse to do anything based on a flawed ‘ethics’ claim. Isn’t it funny how the statement is always made on the ethical argument, “If any child is damaged from a vaccine-preventable illness, the researcher would be held accountable for that damage” yet whenever children are damaged by vaccines, short or long term damage, the burden of proof is on the parent to prove that the vaccine did it. That is the very crux of the issue. The burden of proof is so lopsided favoring the manufacturers that parents of damaged children start 10 steps behind when it is their child who is damaged. Just look at the comments on this blog! Parent says, ‘my child was damaged, doctors have confirmed it’. 10 people jump on to say, ‘prove it.’ If you cannot, beyond any doubt prove it, you must be either making it up or it was really just coincidence. With that mindset, unbiased studies are impossible. And that is the mindset of virtually the ENTIRE main stream research community.

  461. Steve Michaels says:

    For some reason, my comment to you percival has been held up in moderation. I stated that herd immunity is a complete myth and does not exist. Adults generally do NOT keep up with boosters and, as admitted by pro-vaxers and manufacturers, vaccines do NOT confer lifetime immunity, the level of vaccination coverage is woefully below what ANY herd immunity theory says is necessary to work. On top of that, strangely enough, adults are NOT dropping like flies from the VPD’s for which their vaccines no longer provide any protection. You, percival said:
    “Think a little harder there steve! Herd immunity is for EACH vaccine, not all the vaccines together! There might be only 50% of people who get all there vaccines, but for a given vaccine, rates are usually (hopefully) in the 90-95% range for herd immunity. Rates for the individual vaccines are easy to find!”
    You also quoted a link to the CDC to ‘prove’ that I was wrong. One page in from your link (on the page you linked to) I found this:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/downloads/nis-adult-summer-2007.pdf
    You have actually proved my point. Herd immunity is a myth and a lie. The highest level of coverage according to the CDC for adults is over 65’s for seasonal flu, at 68.8% coverage. From there, it ranges right on down to NONE. It is impossible (if you believe in herd immunity) for herd immunity to work anywhere below around 80% coverage. The child population is around 95%, but the ENTIRE population for VPD coverage is well below 50%. Time to recognize that the propaganda you have been spouting isn’t even supported by your own sources. It is a LIE.

  462. Kelly says:

    What makes you a liar, Ann, is that there are inconsistencies in your story. Instead of clarifying those inconsistencies, you chose to call me names. If it is simply me not understanding what you wrote, then you could have easily corrected me, yet you don’t. That’s says a lot about your position.
    Even your own story, you describe some pretty scary complications but yet you continued with 2nd and 3rd doses, which I don’t believe a reasonable person would. With the HepB vaccine, you say that you got GB with the first dose, a very real and scary complication, yet you go and get a second dose. After this dose you claim you got aseptic meningitis which is odd since the HepB vaccine is a subunit vaccine and it doesn’t actually contain a virus, not the HBV is associated with viral meningitis anyway. Still, you blamed the vaccine for yet another very scary complication, but yet you get a third dose. With the third dose you claim that you get an autoimmune disease, but a causal relationship has not been determined as described in this review article – http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar08jan-16.pdf
    Now, I’m not fully up-to-date on the primary literature, so instead of calling me names, how about you discuss the papers in this review article and why we should believe your claims over the science. This is your chance to put your money where your mouth is and actually use your claims of superior knowledge to put me in my place. My skepticism of your claim that you were injured by HepB vaccine is because you have offered no evidence of this besides your belief that you were and this belief directly contradicts what is currently known about the vaccine.

  463. Kelly says:

    So now the truth comes out, all by your own admission. So when you said your daughter was damaged by the chicken pox vaccine, you were lying.
    When you said you had doctors that support your claims of vaccine injury, you were lying.
    When you said that the doctors that diagnosed your vaccine injury were knowledgeable on the subject, you were lying.
    And no, you don’t need me to believe you. All you need to do is to plant the seed of doubt to promote your anti-vax agenda. My job is to make sure other parents don’t believe you. My job is to help others see that your claims are lies and thus can be dismissed without further thought.
    You also raise another common anti-vaccine rhetoric. Why won’t your doctors testify on your behalf? Not because they know the science doesn’t support your claim, but there is some big conspiracy to cover it up.

  464. Kelly says:

    And where is that link to those Cochrane reviews Steve, so that we can all read them and confirm that they say what you think they say?

  465. Steve Michaels says:

    “Fifty-one studies with 294,159 observations were included. Sixteen RCTs and 18 cohort studies were included in the analysis of vaccine efficacy and effectiveness. From RCTs, live vaccines showed an efficacy of 82% (95% confidence interval (CI) 71% to 89%) and an effectiveness of 33% (95% CI 28% to 38%) in children older than two compared with placebo or no intervention. Inactivated vaccines had a lower efficacy of 59% (95% CI 41% to 71%) than live vaccines but similar effectiveness: 36% (95% CI 24% to 46%). In children under two, the efficacy of inactivated vaccine was similar to placebo. Variability in study design and presentation of data was such that a meta-analysis of safety outcome data was not feasible. Extensive evidence of reporting bias of safety outcomes from trials of live attenuated vaccines impeded meaningful analysis.”
    Note that with recommendation for vaccination from 6 months, no difference was found for use in under 2s meaning that the mercury laden vaccine is recommended without any supporting science. Other effectiveness rates of 30%-40%. Given the 700% increase in miscarriages and narcolepsy as found in Sweden, Finland and Ireland as well as reports of seizures, encephalitis and GBS, there is no justification for the vaccine whatsoever.
    http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004879.html

  466. percival says:

    come on. That’s why there IS NO herd immunity for influenza. Nobody here says that we have herd immunity for influenza. But for things like measles, that has high coverage, there is. Where on earth are you getting the idea that only 50% of the entire US population has been vaccinated for measles? They’ve either been vaccinated or had the disease. Same with chicken pox. And for other diseases thed kids are the main way the disease spreads. They spread all the germs around in school and whatnot. So when you vaccinate them, you get herd immunity even if the adults aren’t vaccinated. This stuff isn’t that hard. Just proofread yourself before you post this stuff so you don’t make such lame mistakes. You do want people to actually think you know what you’re talking about, right???

  467. ChrisKid says:

    Which ones, Suzanne, and what are the differences, demographically, between those and any they could be matched with. Can you honestly show us one communities anywhere in the U.S. where the majority of people, or even just children, are unvaccinated?

  468. ChrisKid says:

    So what you’re actually setting up there is a study with so many variables that it would be meaningless before you even start it. Do you really not understand the reason for looking at one variable at a time?
    As for burden of proof, if you ‘know’ your child is vaccine-injured, why would you care what a bunch of strangers on the internet have to say about it? If you’re looking for compensation (which should happen in a genuine case of injury) the requirements for ‘proof’ in Vaccine Court are actually less burdensome than in civil court. It sounds as if you just want everyone to agree with you.

  469. ChrisKid says:

    The mother of your grandchild is ‘terrified’ of you because she exercised her freedom of choice and made in informed decision to have her child vaccinated? That says a lot about you and how you treat people, doesn’t it? Does your grandchild know that you hate her mother?

  470. Steve Michaels says:

    Where do you get your rubbish from? Show me a study that shows that measles vaccines confer lifetime immunity. It doesn’t! Kids get shot up with that rubbish 3 times to get an adequate response and from that point, according to Merck, it last for 11 years. Sooooo, how many boosters have YOU had? I am 45 and have NEVER had a booster, as is true of most, if not all, of the adult population. By the way, most vaccines don’t even last that long. So where is your herd immunity? IT DOES NOT EXIST!
    3c.4 How long does the measles vaccine last?
    The Merck Manual describes it as “durable.” The PDR says that all of
    the antibody levels induced by MMR have been shown to last up to 11
    years without substantial decline, and “continued surveillance will be
    necessary to determine further duration of antibody persistance.”
    http://stason.org/TULARC/child-parent/vaccinations/3c-4-How-long-does-the-measles-vaccine-last.html
    “So when you vaccinate them, you get herd immunity even if the adults aren’t vaccinated.”
    Nice one! You follow that clanger with a claim of my ‘lame mistake’? You have really got to be joking. Herd immunity theory is based on populations not age groups!

  471. Steve Michaels says:

    Steve Michaels :
    Where do you get your rubbish from? Show me a study that shows that measles vaccines confer lifetime immunity. It doesn’t! Kids get shot up with that rubbish 3 times to get an adequate response and from that point, according to Merck, it last for 11 years. Sooooo, how many boosters have YOU had? I am 45 and have NEVER had a booster, as is true of most, if not all, of the adult population. By the way, most vaccines don’t even last that long. So where is your herd immunity? IT DOES NOT EXIST!
    3c.4 How long does the measles vaccine last?
    The Merck Manual describes it as “durable.” The PDR says that all of
    the antibody levels induced by MMR have been shown to last up to 11
    years without substantial decline, and “continued surveillance will be
    necessary to determine further duration of antibody persistance.”
    http://stason.org/TULARC/child-parent/vaccinations/3c-4-How-long-does-the-measles-vaccine-last.html
    “So when you vaccinate them, you get herd immunity even if the adults aren’t vaccinated.”
    Nice one! You follow that clanger with a claim of my ‘lame mistake’? You have really got to be joking. Herd immunity theory is based on populations not age groups!

  472. Staci McIntosh says:

    Funny they say it works for 11 years when I got the Measles a year after the MMR….

  473. Steve Michaels says:

    My reply keeps popping up in the wrong place so I’ll post it again:
    Where do you get your rubbish from? Show me a study that shows that measles vaccines confer lifetime immunity. It doesn’t! Kids get shot up with that rubbish 3 times to get an adequate response and from that point, according to Merck, it last for 11 years. Sooooo, how many boosters have YOU had? I am 45 and have NEVER had a booster, as is true of most, if not all, of the adult population. By the way, most vaccines don’t even last that long. So where is your herd immunity? IT DOES NOT EXIST!
    3c.4 How long does the measles vaccine last?
    The Merck Manual describes it as “durable.” The PDR says that all of
    the antibody levels induced by MMR have been shown to last up to 11
    years without substantial decline, and “continued surveillance will be
    necessary to determine further duration of antibody persistance.”
    http://stason.org/TULARC/child-parent/vaccinations/3c-4-How-long-does-the-measles-vaccine-last.html
    “So when you vaccinate them, you get herd immunity even if the adults aren’t vaccinated.”
    Nice one! You follow that clanger with a claim of my ‘lame mistake’? You have really got to be joking. Herd immunity theory is based on populations not age groups!

  474. Steve Michaels says:

    ChrisKid :
    So what you’re actually setting up there is a study with so many variables that it would be meaningless before you even start it. Do you really not understand the reason for looking at one variable at a time?
    As for burden of proof, if you ‘know’ your child is vaccine-injured, why would you care what a bunch of strangers on the internet have to say about it? If you’re looking for compensation (which should happen in a genuine case of injury) the requirements for ‘proof’ in Vaccine Court are actually less burdensome than in civil court. It sounds as if you just want everyone to agree with you.

    You really do come up with some crap. You overcomplicate everything yet contradict yourself. Concomitant, concurrent and comparative studies (the only one’s you quote for safety) actually study variables other than the one the one that needs to be studies. Vaccines. Asking parents to participate by providing short and long term health outcomes, or authorizing their doctor to participate on their behalf is simple. Asking a few demographic questions would reduce the other variables to a lower level than randomized studies. You are fighting the idea because it may well prove you wrong, and you can’t handle that.

  475. Chris says:

    1 The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559­-63
    J Pediatr. 1999 Nov;135(5):559-63.
    Gastrointestinal abnormalities in children with autistic disorder.
    Horvath K, Papadimitriou JC, Rabsztyn A, Drachenberg C, Tildon JT.
    Department of Pediatrics, University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
    J Pediatr. 2001 Mar;138(3):366-72.
    Colonic CD8 and gamma delta T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism.
    Furlano RI, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, McGarvey L, Thomson MA, Davies SE, Berelowitz M, Forbes A, Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    University Department of Paediatric Gastroenterology, the Inflammatory Bowel Diseases Study Group, Royal Free and University College School of Medicine, London, United Kingdom.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
    J Clin Immunol. 2003 Nov;23(6):504-17.
    Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.
    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Walker-Smith JA, Wakefield AJ.
    The Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group, and Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free and University College, Medical School, London, United Kingdom.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005
    This is one year of a journal, not a paper. Again, you are asked to provide proper cites.
    5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
    Brain Behav Immun. 1993 Mar;7(1):97-103.
    Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior.
    Singh VK, Warren RP, Odell JD, Warren WL, Cole P.
    Biomedical Division, Center for Persons with Disabilities, Logan, Utah.
    How does a paper written written in 1993 replicate a 1998 paper, through time travel? Also no mention of any MMR vaccine.
    6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
    “The following term was not found in PubMed: Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28[All Fields].”
    Again, you are asked to provide proper cites.
    7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85
    Neuropsychobiology. 2005;51(2):77-85.
    Dysregulated innate immune responses in young children with autism spectrum disorders: their relationship to gastrointestinal symptoms and dietary intervention.
    Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Zimmerman-Bier B.
    Department of Pediatrics, New Jersey Medical School, UMDNJ, Newark, NJ 07101-1709, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5­):605-10
    J Pediatr. 2005 May;146(5):605-10.
    Evaluation of an association between gastrointestinal symptoms and cytokine production against common dietary proteins in children with autism spectrum disorders.
    Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Reddy C, Zimmerman-Bier B.
    Department of Pediatrics, Division of Pulmonary, Allergy/Immunology, and Infectious Diseases, New Jersey Medical School/UMDNJ, 185 South Orange Avenue, Newark, NJ 07101-1709, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
    Not found in PubMed. Again, you are asked to provide proper cites. It is, however this:
    Autism Insights 2009:2 1-11.
    Clinical Presentation and Histologic Findings at Ileocolonoscopy in Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Chronic Gastrointestinal Symptoms
    Krigsman, A
    Krigsman is a colleague of Dr. Wakefield, plus Wakefield had been an editor of that vanity journal. It is not independent.
    10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
    Can J Gastroenterol. 2009 Feb;23(2):95-8.
    Autistic enterocolitis: fact or fiction?
    Galiatsatos P, Gologan A, Lamoureux E.
    Department of Medicine, The Sir Mortimer B Davis Jewish General Hospital, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
    “Two autism spectrum disorder patients with chronic intestinal symptoms and abnormal endoscopic findings are described, followed by a review of this controversial topic.”
    A case report on two persons, not a dozen children, and no mention of any MMR vaccine.
    11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3)­: 148-161
    Ann Clin Psychiatry. 2009 Jul-Sep;21(3):148-61.
    Phenotypic expression of autoimmune autistic disorder (AAD): a major subset of autism.
    Singh VK.
    Brain State International Research Center, Scottsdale, AZ 85260, USA.
    A summary of research, with no mention of what chilren. I found the atual paper (hxxps://dub dub dub dot aacp.com/Pages.asp?AID=7937&issue=&page=C&UID=), and among the data used it included a Wakefield paper. Not independent. Also included in the references were papers from questionable journals like Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons and Medical Veritas. Plus there have been critisms of Dr. Singh’s work in the past, which might explain why he is not longer assiciated with any university.
    12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
    Not found on PubMed, again you are asked to use proper cites.
    13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13
    J Autism Dev Disord. 2009 Mar;39(3):405-13. Epub 2008 Sep 13.
    Gastrointestinal symptoms in a sample of children with pervasive developmental disorders.
    Nikolov RN, Bearss KE, Lettinga J, Erickson C, Rodowski M, Aman MG, McCracken JT, McDougle CJ, Tierney E, Vitiello B, Arnold LE, Shah B, Posey DJ, Ritz L, Scahill L.
    Yale Child Study Center, Yale University, P.O. Box 207900, New Haven, CT, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:13­3-144.
    Med Hypotheses. 1998 Aug;51(2):133-44.
    Autism and Clostridium tetani.
    Bolte ER.
    First off, this is not a peer reviewed journal (look up the word “hypothesis”). Second it is on tetanus! No mention of any MMR vaccine, nor on the gastrointestinal issues.
    15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429­-35
    J Child Neurol. 2000 Jul;15(7):429-35.
    Short-term benefit from oral vancomycin treatment of regressive-onset autism.
    Sandler RH, Finegold SM, Bolte ER, Buchanan CP, Maxwell AP, Väisänen ML, Nelson MN, Wexler HM.
    Section of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Rush Children’s Hospital, Rush Medical College, Chicago, IL 60612, USA.
    Eleven is less than twelve, and no mention of any MMR vaccine. Plus it was an experimental treatment, nothing like Wakefield’s study.
    16. Lancet. 1972;2:883­884.
    Lancet. 1972 Oct 21;2(7782):883-4.
    Alpha-1-antitrypsin, autism, and coeliac disease.
    Walker-Smith J, Andrews J.
    Seriously, what is with the time travel? And it has nothing to do with Wakefield’s study, and is by one of his colleagues (so not independent even with a Tardis).
    17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62
    J Autism Child Schizophr. 1971 Jan-Mar;1(1):48-62.
    Malabsorption and cerebral dysfunction: a multivariate and comparative study of autistic children.
    Goodwin MS, Cowen MA, Goodwin TC.
    More time travel, and no mention of any MMR. Which really was about to be approved in the USA.
    18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:3­66-372.
    J Pediatr. 2001 Mar;138(3):366-72.
    Colonic CD8 and gamma delta T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism.
    Furlano RI, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, McGarvey L, Thomson MA, Davies SE, Berelowitz M, Forbes A, Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    University Department of Paediatric Gastroenterology, the Inflammatory Bowel Diseases Study Group, Royal Free and University College School of Medicine, London, United Kingdom.
    It is a repeat of cite #2, and it is still not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors.
    19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375­382.
    Could not be found on PubMed, again you are reminded to use proper cites. But using Google I did find:
    Mol Psychiatry. 2002;7(4):375-82, 334.
    Small intestinal enteropathy with epithelial IgG and complement deposition in children with regressive autism.
    Torrente F, Ashwood P, Day R, Machado N, Furlano RI, Anthony A, Davies SE, Wakefield AJ, Thomson MA, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH.
    Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free & University College Medical School, London, UK.
    It is not independent if Wakefield is one of the authors. Why is this just a difficult concept?
    20. American Journal of Gastroenterology April 2004;598-605.
    Am J Gastroenterol. 2004 Apr;99(4):598-605.
    Focal-enhanced gastritis in regressive autism with features distinct from Crohn’s and Helicobacter pylori gastritis.
    Torrente F, Anthony A, Heuschkel RB, Thomson MA, Ashwood P, Murch SH.
    The Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Department of Histopathology, Royal Free & University College Medical School, London.
    Independent replication means no one from the 1998 Lancet paper can be an author. Not independent, and nothing with any MMR vaccine.
    21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:50­4-517.
    J Clin Immunol. 2003 Nov;23(6):504-17.
    Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.
    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Walker-Smith JA, Wakefield AJ.
    The Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group, and Centre for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Royal Free and University College, Medical School, London, United Kingdom.
    It cannot be independent if Wakefield or any of his colleagues are involved.
    22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1­2):126-34.
    J Neuroimmunol. 2006 Apr;173(1-2):126-34. Epub 2006 Feb 21.
    Immune activation of peripheral blood and mucosal CD3+ lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms.
    Ashwood P, Wakefield AJ.
    Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology, University of California at Davis, M.I.N.D. Institute, Wet Lab building, 50th Street, Sacramento, CA 95817, USA.
    It cannot be independent if Wakefield or any of his colleagues are involved.
    23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477.
    Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2006 Dec 30;30(8):1472-7. Epub 2006 Jul 24.
    Increased serum levels of glutamate in adult patients with autism.
    Shinohe A, Hashimoto K, Nakamura K, Tsujii M, Iwata Y, Tsuchiya KJ, Sekine Y, Suda S, Suzuki K, Sugihara G, Matsuzaki H, Minabe Y, Sugiyama T, Kawai M, Iyo M, Takei N, Mori N.
    Department of Psychiatry and Neurology, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, Hamamatsu, Shizuoka 431-3192,
    Since when are “adults” still children? Also, no mention of any MMR vaccine (and the Japanese version was different from the American vaccine).
    24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16
    Clin Infect Dis. 2002 Sep 1;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16.
    Gastrointestinal microflora studies in late-onset autism.
    Finegold SM, Molitoris D, Song Y, Liu C, Vaisanen ML, Bolte E, McTeague M, Sandler R, Wexler H, Marlowe EM, Collins MD, Lawson PA, Summanen P, Baysallar M, Tomzynski TJ, Read E, Johnson E, Rolfe R, Nasir P, Shah H, Haake DA, Manning P, Kaul A.
    Infectious Diseases Section, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, West Los Angeles, CA, USA.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine, and mostly to do with some bacterial study.
    25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004;
    Again, this is just a journal and a year, not a paper. You really need to learn how to cite.
    26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991
    J Med Microbiol. 2005 Oct;54(Pt 10):987-91.
    Differences between the gut microflora of children with autistic spectrum disorders and that of healthy children.
    Parracho HM, Bingham MO, Gibson GR, McCartney AL.
    Food Microbial Sciences Unit, School of Food Biosciences, The University of Reading, Whiteknights, PO Box 226, Reading RG6 6AP, UK.
    No mention of any MMR vaccine.
    27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
    CARACTERÍSTICAS ENDOSCÓPICAS, HISTOLÓGICAS E INMUNOLÓGICAS DE LA
    MUCOSA DIGESTIVA EN NIÑOS AUTISTAS CON SÍNTOMAS GASTROINTESTINALES.
    Segundo Premio Trabajo Científico. LI Congreso Nacional de Pediatría 2005.
    Lenny González, Karolina López, Dianora Navarro, Lilia Negrón, Lucy Flores,
    Rosario Rodríguez, Marbelia Martínez, Aderbal Sabrá.
    Not in PubMed, but online dub dub dub dot svpediatria.org/documentos/69Enero-Marzo.pdf and includes Dr. Lenny Gonzalez, who is part of Thoughtful House and therefore it is not independent. No mention of MMR.
    28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303
    Not found in PubMed, because it is a posture presentation that was never published.

  476. Chris says:

    You still have not posted on real independent replication of Wakefield’s retracted 1998 Lancet paper. There are now three copies of your list and why the papers don’t say what you want them to say on this thread, like at comment #482. Please take the time to actually find real independent replications, have at least a dozen children and that actually mention the MMR vaccine (because you are against any child getting the MMR vaccine) or stop using your Gish Gallop.

  477. Chris says:

    This is to Marsha, the nested comments are not working.

  478. Kat says:

    Is Thoughtful House successful in their treatment of autism?

  479. Marsha McClelland says:

    Kelly :So now the truth comes out, all by your own admission. So when you said your daughter was damaged by the chicken pox vaccine, you were lying.
    When you said you had doctors that support your claims of vaccine injury, you were lying.
    When you said that the doctors that diagnosed your vaccine injury were knowledgeable on the subject, you were lying.
    And no, you don’t need me to believe you. All you need to do is to plant the seed of doubt to promote your anti-vax agenda. My job is to make sure other parents don’t believe you. My job is to help others see that your claims are lies and thus can be dismissed without further thought.
    You also raise another common anti-vaccine rhetoric. Why won’t your doctors testify on your behalf? Not because they know the science doesn’t support your claim, but there is some big conspiracy to cover it up.

    Why don’t you get off Ann’s back, Kelly. Stop knit picking her words & showing your true colors. It looks bad on you.

  480. Marsha McClelland says:

    Did you have to use a different email to post, Steve? I did. They fixed it so I couldn’t post & removed many of my posts that proved the facts of Wakefield’s vindication, all the fraud they call science & the proof of the many epidemics vaccines cause. Wow, they get beat with truth & take the coward’s way out.

  481. Marsha McClelland says:

    Chris :This is to Marsha, the nested comments are not working.

    Yes, they aren’t working because you cowards sabotaged me. You won’t let me post so I fixed that for now, until you remove me again as you did all my eye opening posts. What cowards. Wait till word of this gets around. It must have been Christine who did it. I told people to scroll back for all the damning & true facts & they were all removed. How fair is that? Lots to hide, huh?

  482. AnnPC says:

    I said that I will not respond any further to you and I will not. You are welcome to get yourself riled up and call me a liar. Whatever floats your boat. I have presented by side and the folks can decided who to believe. My doctors are terrified…out of their own mouths…they have seen doctors destroyed by the phamacuetical companies and “anonymous” reports to medical boards where licenses get suspended or pulled. That is a fact as well, no lies, just truth from several doctors who don’t even know each other. My daughter’s pediatrician is TOTALLY fearful and said he has to push vaccines or risk losing his license and being kicked off his insurance panel. He said he understands my concerns and choosing not to vaccinate my son, but he has to put his family first and the more unvaccinated children he sees the bigger target he is. When he said that…I KNEW what he meant and what he was telling me. Good luck Kelly…I have no response left for you…so get yourself all worked up and try to tear my truth apart…it remains true. Glad I never ran across you in a dark alley…you are like a pit viper! The serpent reference has no religious undertones at all…

  483. Marsha McClelland says:

    Why did you not remove this post of mine, too? Too easy to knit pick but you remove the many others because you know you can’t stand against truth, huh. Wait till word of this spreads.It must have been Christine Vara who is the coward, I guess. She is the only one who it could be in my estimation.

  484. Marsha McClelland says:

    Why didn’t you remove all my comments staing it strange my posts received no comments as you did my eye opening posts. It’s clear you did by leaving these “tells”

  485. Kat says:

    @Snoozie, two questions:
    1. From where do you suppose the idea of medicine arose?
    2. Are other life forms, for instance – plants, ever able to defend themselves from germs and predators without the help of humans?
    Looking forward to your reply.

  486. AnnPC says:

    Thanks Erwin!!! I struck a nerve with Kelly, she needs to think I am lying. I don’t know why she thinks that I have time or the inclination to make up lies or spend time on here if my story were not true. I decided not to respond to her anymore…she is beyond help. 😉

  487. Kat says:

    Kelly writes: “Even your own story, you describe some pretty scary complications but yet you continued with 2nd and 3rd doses, which I don’t believe a reasonable person would.”
    I imagine, then, it was a pretty UNreasonable doc who recommended Ann continue to vaccinate, Kelly? Certainly you spoke to your medical staff about the complications, Ann?

  488. Marsha McClelland says:

    I replaced the truth about Wakefield’s vindication which was deleted & unless they removed it again you can scroll back a little to see it. I will try to replace the proof of the massive fraud behind the science they are trying to cover up as well as the proof of widespread epidemics due to the ignorance of vaccines, too. When word get out of this censorship, that will give even more credibility to our side which stands in truth.

  489. Marsha McClelland says:

    They removed the posts they don’t want you to see, between them. percival.

  490. Marsha McClelland says:

    Okay. I give up. My posts are being messed with so much & some of my comments are appearing out of place so I give up on you cows. I only wanted those who were looking for truth to have a chance to find it. You are obvious in hiding what I send so it just goes to show which side are the liars as you take the coward’s way out. Bad on you. You have been defeated anyway & it showed for all who want to see.

  491. Kat says:

    Kelly writes, “My skepticism of your claim that you were injured by HepB vaccine is because you have offered no evidence of this besides your belief that you were and this belief directly contradicts what is currently known about the vaccine.”
    Again, with no-allowance of anecdotes. If no anecdotes —> then no-case findings either. If no case observations, what experiences do humans have to build their theories upon in order to begin scientific studies?
    Yes, Kelly, there have been extreme radicals in our world who have banded together with crazy notions of cataclysmic events happening on such and such dates and have even commited suicide together due to their belief systems, but that is not what we are dealing with here. Unfortunately you and certain popular bloggers of our day are misleading the public to think that with your talk of logical fallacies. There are many MANY level headed people, including allopathic doctors, who question our vaccination program with excellent reasoning. Often, these are people who understand health, political movements, and history in a much larger fashion than just vaccines and the research of them. A discussion that is WAY too large for a Shot of Prev board.

  492. Marsha McClelland says:

    Chris :This is to Marsha, the nested comments are not working.

    I know, Chris, since you sabotaged me so I can’t post & removed what you didn’t want others to see. Right?.

  493. Marsha McClelland says:

    ChrisKid :The mother of your grandchild is ‘terrified’ of you because she exercised her freedom of choice and made in informed decision to have her child vaccinated? That says a lot about you and how you treat people, doesn’t it? Does your grandchild know that you hate her mother?

    She is terrified for her child, Chriskid. You should have understood that. I don’thate her. I love her. I don’t like her a lot of times, if you can understand that.

  494. Marsha McClelland says:

    Mine keep popping up in the wrong place, too, Steve. If they show up at all. I think the cowards are messing with us since we were burying them in truth so effectively.

  495. Marsha McClelland says:

    They won’t let me post the follow up that is so telling!

  496. Marsha McClelland says:

    They left this part but deleted the content with all the fact & evidence/ I will try to replace it;
    Lunacy has reigned for far too long. The trade off for having childhood disease, that most always strengthened immune systems was replaced by epidemics on a scale that’s so massive it, now, takes 1 in 3 in cancer before age of 65 & 1 in 100 children in neurological disorders called autism.
    Doctors have been trained to blame media, saying there has been no increase. They say cancer & autism have always been prominent but we never noticed until media began reporting it. They also blame the rise in autism on better diagnosis but if that was so, we would have noticed these victims all around us, had they actually been there all along.
    We know this is a lie because we can see with our own eyes how widespread both cancer & autism have become.
    We never saw such epidemics years back & the rise has been right in step with the increase in vaccinations through the years. Other toxins let loose on mankind via the air, food & water are to blame as well as harmful drugs but vaccines are definitely the catalyst.
    We are a nation of epidemics that’s rippled out to the world because of ignorance & greed.
    It is unbelievable yet undeniable if properly investigated.

  497. Staci McIntosh says:

    Agree 100%, Marsha!

  498. Marsha McClelland says:

    I had to change my email address before I could even post after all the deletions.

  499. Staci McIntosh says:

    I am not one bit surprised. They do what they can to keep the truth from others. Hopefully many will see through the lies and do their own research.

  500. Marsha McClelland says:

    Chris, why don’t you address any other points of fact & harp on this, continually. You just spin & knit pick. This back & forth tactic here is only showing you are grasping at straws. What I sent is what it is & does associate with Dr. Wakefield’s work whether you want to deny it or not. I know, you have nothing else so easy as this matter to cherry pick so you have to stick with it. I am not expert enough to be able to go any more in depth on this matter you are driving into the ground. But I do know enough to tell there’s truth in the replications & have presented a whole lot of other fact & evidence that can’t be denied.
    That is if it’s not deleted again because you people are afraid for others to see.

  501. Marsha McClelland says:

    This comment of mine, #513, should have shown under Chris’s comment, # 511.
    Since they did all the deletions of my important comments & removed my posting privileges this site has been all messed up & when I reply, it goes elsewhere.
    I had to post under a different email to get my comments to even show up.

  502. AnnPC says:

    Kat you are right on the money. What is interesting is that docs will tell you to keep vaccinating, as they did to my daughter. She ended up in hospital from chicken pox shot, but ped STILL wanted her to take the 2nd shot. What I have been told is…because there is NO liability for doctors when vaccine reactions or damage occur, the will continue to tell you to vaccinate. IF they don’t and you/your child got the disease, after they recommended you not to vaccinate, then they WOULD be negligent. Bottom line…no matter what happens when the vaccinate you it is NOT their problem, but if you DON’T vaccinate they can be help liable. Doctors are protecting their own asses…not yours. This came directly from several medical doctors (both those treating me and some physicians friends).

  503. AnnPC says:

    So sorry for what happened to you!!!

  504. DixieDiva says:

    The vaccine insert labels tell us all we need to know. Vaccines have not been studied sufficiently to deem them ‘safe’ when the mutagenic effects have not been studied or the potential to cause cancer. We hear the ‘experts’ repeated point towards the ‘science’ regarding the causal link between vaccines and autism, yet where is the ‘science’ to back up their claims that vaccines are ‘safe?’ They have NONE! I had the measles as a child as did my 6 siblings and neighborhood friends. I would rather take the natural odds of my kids ever contracting the measles and coming down with it than injecting poisonous toxins on purpose that we know triggers inflammatory or some other negative reaction. We humans should stop trying to play God we are our own worst enemy reeking havoc on our perfectly designed immune systems. Vaccines do not guarantee immunity, efficacy rates are poor.

  505. Chris says:

    Marsha’s list is in italics, and all of them are there, including #2 and #18 which are the same paper. I did not modify her list, other than put it in italics. It is not cherry picked. I posted the actual PubMed cite when I could find them, and gave the reason why each one was either not independent, did not pertain to any MMR vaccine, and did not consist of at least a dozen children.
    It does show that none of them independently replicate Wakefield’s findings.
    Ms. McClelland, if you have an issue of the way your list is represented, then it is up to you to remove the duplicate cite, correct the cites that are incomplete, remove the cites that are not independent, not published and that predate the 1998 Lancet paper.

  506. Babs says:

    What I would love to see is a study that shows that vaccines don’t cause autism. Anyone?

  507. Liz Ditz says:

    I find it telling that Marsha is complaining about Chris’s list, but not about mine (now numbered 469) https://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/29/moms-who-vaccinate-and-those-who-wish-they-had/#comment-3525.
    The short version: none of Marsha’s cut & pasted list of 28 papers are independent replications of Wakefield’s findings.

  508. Gary says:

    Thanks for all that work, Chris. It was a bit more than her post deserved especially since she was unwilling to explain even a single item in it.

  509. Gary says:

    http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
    AAP document with hyperlinks containing:
    28 studies demonstrating no MMR link
    11 studies demonstrating no thimerosal link
    On-time vs. delayed vaccination and neurodevelopmental outcomes study

  510. Gary says:

    I liked your list too, Liz. Thanks for the work.

  511. Liz Ditz says:

    I can predict how Marsha will respond to the evidence:

    a comment yesterday from MarshaSame old rhetoric & ridiculous challenges. I’m not here to play your games but go ahead without me, anyway.
    For a more indepth look into the 28 studies I posted that the deceivers are trying to discredit with their belly aching.

  512. Gary says:

    Because you have not answered this question yet. Answer it. Provide a single replication of Wakefield’s fraud, and then we can move on to your other misinformation. What you posted was some references to papers, some published, some not. Please provide an explanation of even a single one which replicates ANY of Wakefield’s “findings”.

  513. Gary says:

    What do those inserts tell you about statistics, immunology, toxicology, epidemiology, or virology?

  514. Gary says:

    Except you still failed to explain any of it. Just show which of those studies replicates which of Wakefields fraud?
    “how telling”

  515. Gary says:

    It makes me wonder how an overheard conversation by “this woman” make anything “obvious”.

  516. Gary says:

    http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/article.asp?id=80869
    This study was done in germany. It compares the health outcomes of fully, partially, and non vaccinated children between the ages of 0 and 17 years old. It found that the only statistically different outcome was that the non vaccinated had more incidence of vaccine preventable disease.
    “10 people jump on to say, ‘prove it.’ If you cannot, beyond any doubt prove it, you must be either making it up or it was really just coincidence. With that mindset, unbiased studies are impossible. And that is the mindset of virtually the ENTIRE main stream research community.”
    This is why you fail at science, Steve. It really doesn’t matter what the mindset of the researchers are if the study is designed well. The idea is that you set out your criteria before examining the data. You decide before hand which statistical method you will use to correct for which confounding factors. Then, when you run the study, you make sure to clearly document those factors and methods. That way any possible biases can be detected in the studies.
    The problem with anecdotal evidence typed into a blog comment is that it is prone to all of the known biases and has no indication of which ones might be in play. It is, in effect, not evidence at all. The fact that you think it is is quite telling indeed.

  517. Snoozie says:

    Holy cow! If Liz Ditz can do it, why could Marsha not even come up with the proper titles of the studies she was “citing”? Perhaps she was unable to do so, but perhaps she was and she knew that her claims had not substance.

  518. Gary says:

    Seriously, well done Liz. You and Chris deserve medals!

  519. Snoozie says:

    Marsha, after desperately summoning a cavalry to come to your rescue when you could not defend your own arguments, it is quite possible that you are overwhelming the server. Sometimes simple logic can supercede wild conspiracy theories.
    You have been unable to even correctly cite studies or explain how they support your position. In fact, your evidence has been thoroughly debunked. Perhaps that is why you are resorting to name-calling.

  520. Snoozie says:

    Staci: Do not confuse googling with research.

  521. Gary says:

    “Monkey business in autism research”
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=100#more-100
    Monkey business in autism research, part II
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1989

  522. Snoozie says:

    Babs–If you had bothered to read the comments before posting, you could have seen them posted multiple times. It makes me wonder: if anti-vaxxers can’t even read the comments here, how can they possible rely on their hours of “researching” vaccines on the internet. After all, that “research” is really just reading.

  523. Staci McIntosh says:

    Yeah, you all deserve medals for trying to deceive people and cause them to poison their children. Pretty sick. The proof is there… People just have to research on their own and not take anyone’s word that vaccines are safe or effective. My 21 month old son is around sick children (all fully vaxx’d) and doesn’t get sick. He has an immune system that has not been compromised by poison. Not sure what makes you all naïve enough to think the chemicals are okay to inject into the bloodstream but should avoid it every other chance. I don’t know how any of you can sleep at night.

  524. Snoozie says:

    I did, too. Everyone should read that list before bothering to comment at all.

  525. Snoozie says:

    What do you deserve for trying to convince people to leave their children vulnerable to deadly infectious diseases?

  526. Snoozie says:

    Man also created clothing and houses. MamaLuna: do you live outside and naked?

  527. Snoozie says:

    Sorry. This is in reply to this:

    MamaLuna :
    God didn’t create those things MAN did!

  528. Gary says:

    Virginia, is you hypothetical person who loses a loved one in a car accident telling me that his lose is some sort of proof that I should throw my car away? Is the person who reacts to peanuts telling me that the government is trying to poison me by allowing peanuts on the market?
    Personally I have no trouble feeling or expressing genuine sympathy for anyone who has experienced a genuine vaccine injury. I do know of such a person BTW. However, I draw the line at equating questions of veracity and applicability being termed disrespect for the injured. Take a look again at the comments on here claiming vaccine injuries. Some of them are blatantly false (just a law of the internet). Some of them are implausible to the point of statistical impossibility. Some of them might be genuine. Personally I don’t know. But even if each and every one of these stories happened, they are NOT evidence that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent.
    I am sorry, sincerely, if you or anyone else has felt disrespected or in any other way had your feelings hurt. Honestly I am. But the fact of the matter is that the anti vaccination side of this argument is advocating policies which could lead to the disfigurement and deaths of millions of people.

  529. Steve Michaels says:

    Gary that study has already been debunked above in that the outcomes were only tracked for a short time frame. You say from age 0-17 as if it were a 17 year study. It was not. Full debunking above when you first tried that one on.

  530. Steve Michaels says:

    Actually they say that there are risks of severe side effects AND they won’t necessarily have any benefit whatsoever.

  531. Steve Michaels says:

    Except of course for the fact that the ‘deadly’ adjective is simple fear mongering as it has been shown MULTIPLE times now that death rates had already declined before vaccines and continued to decline at similar rates after vaccines. In other words, vaccines had no real impact on mortality rates. But you seem to forget what has been said and proven before every time you post. Amnesia I guess, that or stupidity.

  532. Gary says:

    You mean the scientologist who wrote a fictionalized account of his life in the drug industry? That John Virapen?
    Drug manufacturers certainly commit crimes and fraud in their zeal to promote their products. They hide studies which do not support them. They hype studies which do. And they perform less obvious tricks like statistical shifting and the moving of goal posts (which you should be quite aware of stevey).
    However, it is simply not true that they produce NO studies of scientific usefulness or that none of their papers can be trusted. Quite a bit of the papers which come out of pharmaceutic ally funded research is very well vetted and independently reproduced. It is simply not true to claim that.
    Overall, the public health sector has done a rather amazing job over the last 100 years. We live more than twice as long AND we live more healthy days per year as well.

  533. Steve Michaels says:

    Man also created nuclear power. Do you want to go live in Japan? What a stupid comment to make Snoozie. Maybe you really should just go back to sleep…

  534. Snoozie says:

    Steve, MamaLuna only claimed exception to vaccines because they are man-made. Perhaps you should pay attention.

  535. Snoozie says:

    But mostly, Steve, I’d like to hear Marsha reply to Liz Ditz and Chris:

    Chris :
    You still have not posted on real independent replication of Wakefield’s retracted 1998 Lancet paper. There are now three copies of your list and why the papers don’t say what you want them to say on this thread, like at comment #482. Please take the time to actually find real independent replications, have at least a dozen children and that actually mention the MMR vaccine (because you are against any child getting the MMR vaccine) or stop using your Gish Gallop.

  536. Gary says:

    No, stevey, you tried to discuss that study, but completely failed to read it.
    Indeed it was not a 17 year study in that the data was compiled over the course of 3 years. However, the data covered the entire lives of the subjects, and some of them were indeed 17 years old. You are completely incorrect, stevey.

  537. Gary says:

    Although to be honest, I have to give you props for dropping your first mistaken criticism namely that the study only looked at vaccine efficacy. You did not admit it, of course, but at least it shows you are willing to learn a little.
    This is a long thread, if anyone is interested, this study was discussed above in posts 85 through 88. In post 88, I tried to give stevey a little help in forming criticisms of this particular study.

  538. Gary says:

    No, it has not. Again, you just cannot resist going too far. Death rates from VPDs indeed fell during the first half of the century. They fell faster after vaccinations. And, they fell farther. AND, they did not fall uniformly for all diseases before vaccinations. Some diseases death rates increased just before vaccinations.
    Meanwhile, the adjective deadly is perfectly appropriate unless you are willing to prove that humans do not die from polio, measles, diphtheria, AND all of the other vaccine preventable diseases.

  539. Chris says:

    MamaLuna:

    God didn’t create those things MAN did!

    You know what else was created by “MAN”? The computer and the internet, which you are using for that comment.

  540. Chris says:

    What did God create? Well, lets see: viruses, bacteria, tapeworms, hookworm, Plasmodium falciparum (malaria), arsenic, mercury, cyanide, and lots of other fun things. While you ponder that, brew up some nice foxglove tea and nibble on some castor beans (really, don’t do that, they are both poisonous).

  541. Jeff says:

    I was just showing how people make excuses for vaccines. This was just one example.

  542. percival says:

    It is based on populations AND age groups. It’s called “vector control,” look it up. If you want to be taken seriously as an advocate for your cause, you need to read about these things beyond what you are spoonfed by antivaccine propaganda sites. Or just use that thing on your neck a bit and think about it. If the disease is primarily spread by a certain age group and you vaccinate that age group, you majorly reduce the spread of the disease. It’s simple. It’s high school math. And measles immunity from the vaccine is lifelong, that’s why you don’t need a booster – what, did you stop at the first guy’s website that you found that claimed otherwise? Try reading some of the research instead of websites, like http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8970216
    Really its obvious that you will never be convinced by the science of it, but you can try to make your lack of knowledge a little less apparent… I suggest sticking to things that are vague, like TOXINZ! or something instead of trying to argue about simple facts you don’t know anything about like how long measles vaccine lasts. Because it takes like two minutes to do a search and when yo don’t bother to look into it, it shows how biased you are.

  543. ChrisKid says:

    So you posted a bunch of stuff that you said supported your point. When it was painstakingly shown to you that it is actually quite far from doing anything of the sort, you simply go back to asking foolish questions and making unfounded accusations.
    Yes, what you sent is what it is. A bunch of irrelevant crap. Now, would you like to address the issue that YOU brought up, the so-called replication of Wakefield’s studies? You haven’t shown anything that does that yet. Want to try again?

  544. Kat says:

    Jennifer, first I would like to Thank You for having a reasonable tone, just sticking to your points.
    Some of my concern is based on this part of what you said: “Trace amounts of additives that are quickly cleared from the body (usually within 48 hours depending on the child) are a minor concern in the long run.” CHOP, which has an affiliation to this site, differs in their opinion on that, as stated in some of their immunization literature. Can you explain why?

  545. Gary says:

    Right. I understand that part. The part I am questioning is the ‘excuses’ and ‘obvious’ part. Your point was that people make excuses for something which ‘obviously’ does not work. But it is only ‘obvious’ in the most puerile sense. The example you gave above is the experience of 3 women which does nothing to demonstrate that vaccines don’t work. Not even for them in particular. Perhaps your hypothetical women are smarter than you?

  546. Babs says:

    @Gary thank you so much for that link, it puts so many studies in one place for me 🙂 Do you have any regarding the other vaccines, all these studies seem to do with MMR/Thimerosal but didn’t list any of the others required by the schedual. Thanks

  547. Ursula says:

    One fallacy in this story is, that it is assumed that this child ‘obviously’ only died because she was not vaccinated, but would have lived if she would have had the vaccination. Really? How do you know that? How is it possible to know that?
    It is a fact that vaccination will make you MORE susceptible to getting the disease. Look at all the recent measles and mumps outbreaks in schools. In one of those schools 100% of the children were vaccinated. Yet there was an epidemic of measles.
    In other schools the vaccination rate was over 90%, yet they still had epidemics. Every one started with a vaccinated child, and about 95% of the children who got ill were fully vaccinated. Wow, those vaccines REALLY work to prevent illness!

  548. Ursula says:

    Gary, the ONLY reason childhood diseases killed then, and still do in Third World countries is filth, unclean drinking water and malnutrition.
    Vaccines KILL malnourished children. Giving them clean water, nourishing food, vitamins and decent sanitation saves children. Oh, and mosquito nets are a really excellent thing to give to families in hot countries. Because malaria is the biggest killer of children worldwide.
    The reason rich people lived longer (and still do) is, that they can afford good food and have always been able to live in clean houses with decent sanitation etc. Vaccines have nothing to do with it.

  549. Gary says:

    No, stevey, you read that into them because you simply cannot resist reading anti vaccine crap into everything.
    What it actually says is that various events have been reported, including serious ones, but that no causal link has been established AND that the vaccine has a very high degree of inducing immunity.
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr…/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

  550. Marsha McClelland says:

    LOL. Our people kicked your butts with truth so pretend it did’t happen & enjoy that herd mentality.

  551. Chris says:

    Ursula, could you give us the details, like a link? We know that vaccine are not 100% effective, but that does not mean they are worthless. And if it is just one school, why did not population outside the school not become so effected? Surely the kids are locked up in the buildings 24/7.
    For instance in measles incidence declined by over 90% between 1960 and 1970 (see the CDC Pink Book Appendix G).
    Now whether or not the children in this article would not have had those diseases is immaterial. Starting in 1970 there were over 350000 fewer kids getting measles, and by 2000 there were not much more than 100 kids getting measles, compared to half a million reported cases per year about fifty years ago.
    If you are going to make a blanket statement that vaccines don’t work, then you are going to have to come up with a viable and documented reason why certain diseases are no long as common as they used to be.

  552. Gary says:

    dugmaze, – “Gary, If people only lived into their forties and most children died before age five”
    I actually did not say either of the things you just accused me of.
    But since you ask, The world average life expectancy at birth in the 18th century was about 38. At age 10 life expectancy is 48 (so a total of 58 years). And of course it varies by location, gender and social class.
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html
    Ursula – “Gary, the ONLY reason childhood diseases killed then, and still do in Third World countries is filth, unclean drinking water and malnutrition.”
    This is patently false. Before the vaccine chicken pox killed several hundred people each year. About half of them did NOT have any other health problems. This statistic is from the 80s and 90s. If your hypothoses is true, what sanitation or drinking water improvements have been made in the last 20 years which have caused those deaths to cease showing up on the mortality statistics?
    And just so we are clear, I never said that vaccines help the rich more than they help the poor or any other group. The whole rich / poor thing was brought up to counter dugmaze’s canard that our founding fathers lived into their 80s. He was trying to say that folks lived longer back in the good old days before chemicals messed things up. But as my grandmother said, “Anyone who thinks people were better off in the ‘good ole days’ did not have to live through the good ole days.”

  553. Marsha McClelland says:

    This thread is dead. It was fun watching you guys spin & lose the debate & pretend otherwise with your badgering of good Mothers. You badgered me, too, with your little game but those paying attention saw right through you. All the many parents set you straight & Steve, single handed, did your lies in but good. Hope you wake up soon for your own sakes as well as children’s. You do have my sympathy.

  554. Chris says:

    Marsha:

    I know, Chris, since you sabotaged me so I can’t post & removed what you didn’t want others to see. Right?.

    How am I supposed to have done that? I have no control on this blog, I have told folks twice that my name is not Christine (and trust me, I hate that even more than my actual full name!… even without the crazy way some people who lack a basic phonics education have garbled its pronunciation!).
    Get it through your head, Marsha: My name is not Christine. I have no control on this blog.
    I am also not related to ChrisKid. I have no grandchildren.
    Newsflash: Chris is a common first name for lots of people. I am also not related to Chris Mooney, Chris Farley, Chris Tucker, Chris Rock, Chris Pikas, Chris Anderson, Chris Abbott, Chris Price, Chris Bolgiano and all sorts of people who have Chris as a first name!
    Now quit the conspiracy mongering and show us a real independent study of at least a dozen children that includes reference to the “evil” MMR vaccine to autism and gastrointestinal issues published in a peer reviewed journal.

  555. Babs says:

    @snoozie I don’t understand how you can accuse me of being anti-vaxx. I don’t think I ever said that I was against vaccines or even said anything bad about them. I asked a question and it was answered politely. How do you know that I don’t agree with your viewpoints? Maybe I am all for vaccines and try to spread information about how they are the best medicine against diseases, but you don’t know instead you automatically assume that I hate vaccines and wish them abolished forever, because isn’t that what an anit-vaxxer is? No wonder no one every gets anywhere in these discussions, people like yourself jump in and start throwing names around before anyone even gives their own opinion

  556. ChrisKid says:

    Nobody is doubting that children are autistic. I asked you for verifiable proof, not parental assumption, that vaccines cause autism. Over human history, people have come to some very natural conclusions about the way things worked, going by what they saw or experienced. But then when research was actually done, “I saw it happen” turned out to be factually incorrect. Spontaneous generation comes to mind.

  557. Marsha McClelland says:

    Snoozie :Steve, MamaLuna only claimed exception to vaccines because they are man-made. Perhaps you should pay attention.

    No, it’s you & the others here ignoring what is sent you, who need to pay attention, snoozie. I wish I was as knowledgeable as Steve & you should be so lucky. He’s one of many wise voices here & he went above & beyond the call of duty to inform the good people looking in at this blog.
    Truth is being exposed from every direction & thank goodness for that. First, here’s a “telling” comment from the following, revealing, eye opener of an article;
    “An amazing report. A vaccinologist who’s conscience is bothering her. A whistle blower who will be attacked personally, but less professionally because she’s retired. Another Wakefield who will be crucified for being anti-vac.”
    “Are Vaccines Obsolete?”
    By P Daniels for Salem-News.com
    Autism and vaccines, a surprising connection.
    http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may022011/vaccine-reality-pd.php
    “Many question the benefits.”
    (LONDON) – CBS has opened with the questions surrounding vaccination in broadcasting work by Helen Ratajczak.
    “The article in the Journal of Immunotoxicology is entitled ‘Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes–A review.’ The author is Helen Ratajczak, surprisingly herself a former senior scientist at a pharmaceutical firm. Ratajczak did what nobody else apparently has bothered to do: she reviewed the body of published science since autism was first described in 1943. Not just one theory suggested by research such as the role of MMR shots, or the mercury preservative thimerosal; but all of them.”

  558. ChrisKid says:

    No, I’m confident that it would bear out what hundreds of studies already done have shown, that overall, vaccines are effective and safer, by far, than the alternative, which is leaving the entire population vulnerable to disease. Asking parents to participate by providing health outcomes. How do you verify those? How do you track the parents and families? What do you mean by long term? Authorizing the doctor to participate on their behalf. So you expect the doctor to know about every earache and sniffle and episode of vomiting for every child in the practice? Without that information you don’t have what you need. Are you expecting parents to write all this down? Or are you going to check with them every week?

  559. ChrisKid says:

    “In fact, she’s terrified because we had warned her, my son & I & she wouldn’t listen & she knows we’re very angry.”
    Somehow that doesn’t sound like she’s terrified of the vaccine. You said right there that she’s terrified *because* you and your son are very angry. I’m very sorry for that poor child.

  560. ChrisKid says:

    DixieDiva :enemy reeking havoc on our perfectly designed immune systems. Vaccines do not guarantee immunity,

    Perfectly designed immune systems? Then why did so many people die of diseases we can now prevent, for so many centuries? Why did so many people suffer from those diseases, even when they didn’t die? Why was the rate of measles in children nearly 100%, until a couple years after the vaccine was licensed? Did the human immune system suddenly take a turn for the even more perfect?
    You’re right, though. Vaccines do not guarantee immunity. But then, neither does the natural process of disease. People have been known to get chicken pox or measles or others of them more than once.
    How many times does it have to be said? Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed. But vaccines seem to be the only thing you expect it of.

  561. ChrisKid says:

    Marsha, a lot of things we’ve ‘seen with our own eyes’ have turned out to be not true. For centuries, people ‘saw’ the sun rise. People ‘saw’ the canals on Mars. People ‘saw’ flies generate in rotting meat. People ‘saw’ sick people improve when their humors were balanced. People ‘saw’ witches cast spells and harm others.
    Even now, people ‘see’ an unborn baby’s sex by the way it lies in the womb. People ‘see’ that going out in the cold and wet will bring on a cold.
    People know lots of things, because they’ve ‘seen them with their own eyes’, that just aren’t so.
    This is why scientific research has to be tested and replicated before it’s accepted. You can’t assume you know it, just because you think you’ve seen it.

  562. Marsha McClelland says:

    Did everyone catch this part?
    “A number of independent scientists have said they’ve been subjected to orchestrated campaigns to discredit them when their research exposed vaccine safety issues, especially if it veered into the topic of autism. We asked Ratajczak how she came to research the controversial topic. She told us that for years while working in the pharmaceutical industry, she was restricted as to what she was allowed to publish. “I’m retired now,” she told CBS News. “I can write what I want.”
    Who does that bring to mind?

  563. ChrisKid says:

    Marsha McClelland :
    They also blame the rise in autism on better diagnosis but if that was so, we would have noticed these victims all around us, had they actually been there all along.

    We have noticed these victims all around us. They’ve been labeled learning disabled, retarded, crazy, eccentric, weird, “he’s not right”.

    We never saw such epidemics years back & the rise has been right in step with the increase in vaccinations through the years. Other toxins let loose on mankind via the air, food & water are to blame as well as harmful drugs but vaccines are definitely the catalyst.

    The rise has also been right in step with television, rock music, computers, voting rights for 18-year-olds, women’s liberation, Burger King, and increased air travel. I don’t see you questioning those. The fact is, you see correlation, but causation has *not* been proven. Over and over again, study after study, it has not been proven.

  564. Marsha McClelland says:

    Salem-News covered the CBS investigation of Helen Ratajczak, former senior scientist for pharmaceuticals & I did send that for review. But here’s where Sharyl Attkisson from CBS Investigates did her take on the story.
    “Vaccines and autism: a new scientific review”
    “Science is based on facts. For all those who’ve declared the autism-vaccine debate over – a new scientific review begs to differ. It considers a host of peer-reviewed, published theories that show possible connections between vaccines and autism.”
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html
    I send this, especially, for the valuable information in the comment section because there’s a gold mine of evidence that proves vaccines are dangerous & being covered up. The voice of deception there was so minute, it was amazing, there was almost no opposition to truth.
    Please notice, in the article, Dr. Brian Strom, who served on Institute of Medicine panels & advises government on vaccine safety,
    where he says the prevailing medical opinion is that vaccines are scientifically linked to encephalopathy (brain damage), but not scientifically linked to autism.”
    Wow.
    Those poor babies have gut & neurological disorders so how brilliant is he?
    He’s a fool. As you’ll see he didn’t even know vaccines have human DNA in them.
    “Dr. Strom said he was unaware that human DNA was contained in vaccines but told us, “It does not matter…Even if human DNA were then found in vaccines, it does not mean that they cause autism.” Ratajczak agrees that nobody has proven DNA causes autism; but argues nobody has shown the opposite, and scientifically, the case is still open.”
    Strom said “science is based on facts” & he’s right. But not the fraud he pretends is science & it’s a well known fact to all thinking people, paying attention.

  565. Marsha McClelland says:

    Angry parents, activists & world citizens did an email campaign, alerting media & elected officials to this CBS report & directed them to the comment section.
    We understand media & government officials, not all, but most, are complicit in the cover up but we wanted them to know what we know & that we are many & demand their help.
    This is what I sent;
    Open Letter To American Media & Government;
    We the parents & world citizens who advocate for the health & well being of children demand help, NOW, to bring them all in from harm’s way from harmful drugs & other toxins, especially vaccines, let loose on them & condoned by government agencies like the FDA.
    The vaccine cover up has been exposed in great detail & there is a gold mine of fact & evidence, all gathered for your review at Sharyl Attkisson’s article at CBS in the comment section;
    “Vaccines and autism: a new scientific review”
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html
    All the proof at that link, especially in the comment section, is but the tip of the iceberg but more than enough for any reasonable person to derive an educated conclusion as to truth behind vaccines.
    Sincerely & Seriously,
    On Behalf of Angry Parents, Their Friends & Families & World Citizens
    Marsha McClelland
    Cuahoga Falls, Ohio
    XXX-XXX-XXXX

  566. Steve Michaels says:

    You speak as if you are scared sh*tless of my idea. You say it would bear out what you believe and then come up with every excuse under the sun as to why it won’t work. Guess what, my friend? Adverse reaction studies done by researchers and manufacturers have parents keep a log of daily temperatures and monitor for adverse reactions daily for the studies you cite. So why wouldn’t it work for this type of study? Your fear of the truth is amazing. If the study bore out your view, I would change mine. I get the feeling that NOTHING will change your mind. Evidence is not what drives you.

  567. Marsha McClelland says:

    You are a piece of work, Chriskid.
    Staci gave you the proof summed up. The children are the scientific proof no matter how denial is spun.
    Please Staci, Ann, Laura & all the rest of you, don’t allow these callous people to get you down. You did a good thing coming here & having your say. I know it’s not fun getting down in the muck & having to deal with all the deception & opposition, but we don’t do it for the ones who won’t or can’t see.
    We tangle with them so truth is squeezed out for those on the fence so they can do the proper research.
    They must take in both, all actually, sides. And anti vax, pro vax & those that beLIEve some vaccines are good make it possible for them to be able to come to an informed & educated conclusion on this most urgent matter.
    Thanks to all of you on behalf of children everywhere. Someday, in true history books, posterity will thank you, too.

  568. Steve Michaels says:

    From your package insert:
    “Clinical studies of 284 triple seronegative children, 11 months to 7 years of age, demonstrated that
    M-M-R II is highly immunogenic and generally well tolerated. In these studies, a single injection of the vaccine induced measles hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) antibodies in 95%, mumps neutralizing
    antibodies in 96%, and rubella HI antibodies in 99% of susceptible persons. However, a small percentage
    (1-5%) of vaccinees may fail to seroconvert after the primary dose.
    Note the end bit, 1-5% fail to seroconvert. So, which bit of 1-5% don’t achieve any benefit have you missed? By the way, I have not in any way tried to summarily dismiss efficacy of vaccines. You keep turning things around like I have. I question SAFETY and RISK/BENEFIT claims. So what if I avoid a week of measles for my child if he dies from cancer 20 years later?
    From your package insert:
    Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, Impairment of Fertility
    M-M-R II has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility.
    Pregnancy
    Pregnancy Category C
    Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with M-M-R II. It is also not known whether
    M-M-R II can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction
    capacity. Therefore, the vaccine should not be administered to pregnant females; furthermore, pregnancy
    should be avoided for 3 months following vaccination.
    Which part of ‘we don’t bother testing this stuff’ do you not get? You claim all of these safety studies while EVERY vaccine states exactly the same thing:
    “(enter vaccine name here) has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility.”
    You are ignoring the fact that your own sources refuse to make safety claims that you are making.

  569. Marni says:

    kelly, your restraint for snickering at the ignorance of susan, kat, erwin (actually, he’s pretty easy to ignore as i know his antics well), barb, and MOST ESPECIALLY dee, …is inspriational! i seriously have my jaw to the floor. dee believes babies have difficulty breast-feeding b/c of interventions such as the one she mentioned! nice. i wonder how she knows this. you know what dee… a woman who was hospitalized for H1N1 (not vaccinated) a day or so after giving birth, and did not get to see her newborn for the first 1 1/2 months of life had a LOT of difficulty breast-feeding her infant, too. given that she was unconscious for 6 weeks due to a vaccine-preventable disease (whether erwin wants to admit that they exist or not), …it had nothing to do with anything related to her conception, pregnancy, birthing method, or life-style choice, except for one– she did not get the H1N1 vaccine. hmm?
    also, dee… what makes you think you know what causes breast-feeding difficulties? where do you get your knowledge from? i get mine on the job, in the field, working with breast-feeding mothers every day. i’d like to see your evidence please– and, not just your “theories.” because, you all have the most wacky theories i’ve come across in a long time.
    kat, many do oppose the herd mentality view. that doesn’t mean that it’s an intelligent mentality. it just means they are in some serious denial. yep. you can find whatever information you want on the internet, on different pages. some pages offer education and information (that’s why reliable sources are really important for intelligent folk seeking actual evidence-based medicine, and not reading claims from random people such as yourself that say it’s as simple as eating well and exercising). i agree that thinking WELL would largely contribute to good health. those of us that think well, and get vaccinated ARE, in fact, less likely to die or suffer from vaccine preventable disease. so, i’ll give you that one.
    barb…. no, ….there is no link between vaccines and any of the illnesses you ramble off there. you also can’t PROVE that i can’t grow wings and fly… that doesn’t mean that you’ve shown any reason at all for a person to believe that i CAN. do you also believe that vaccines can cause people to grow 4 heads? because that hasn’t been proven not to be a possible side effect of vaccines either. also, people WILL get sick and die. no one is suggesting otherwise. just that vaccines will protect more people from dying of specific diseases for which the vaccine was designed to protect against.
    also, barb, …if there is some “trade SECRET” ingredient… how is it that YOU know about it, …but, the rest of the population doesn’t? if it’s such a secret, …they either aren’t doing a good job of keeping it on the down-low if you got word of it, …or, somehow you got your hands on some seriously top secret information that could expose the entire medical community and put an end to all of this. come on, don’t be shy, …spill it. tell us everything your detectives have found out about the secret trade ingredients that they are trying to hide from all of us, so we won’t see that “they” are really trying to kill us all, …or, at least make us extremely sick while “they” roll in the dough, laughing all the way to the bank! i see the conspiracy theorist syndrome is STRONG in you, barb.
    kat, ….kelly didn’t post opinions against any ideology. it was susan who presumed that her faith in god would save her from vaccine-preventable diseases. if god chose to give her a healthy immune system. if she’s one of the unlucky ones that doesn’t have a good immune system, she is just suppose to accept that god decided she should be susceptible to illness and disease and be left vulnerable and threatened, even though there are medicines to protect against this. i wonder if susan takes medicine for anything, ever. if she does, she’s a hypocrite. so, i HAVE to assume she doesn’t. and, she has never given her child (if she has any) a medication, either. god will decide.
    though, it’s hilarious that susan thinks that if she just eats right and lives the “right” kind of life-style, she’ll be spared disease and suffering. good luck with that susan. it’s an absurd theory.

  570. Marni says:

    shad, do you know what a chemical is? here’s a great little website, and a really easy-to-understand read: http://icanhasscience.com/chemistry/what-is-and-what-isnt-a-chemical/

  571. Marsha McClelland says:

    Well, well, chriskid. Scrutiny in hope to spin a tale. Everyone. It’s very important how we use our words. This is what happened to Ann. Vultures lay in wait for the tiniest morsel that would put something negative & not intended into the ether, hoping it will stick.
    These dupes & shills have nothing concrete but their fake studies to hold to so the cling to our words in hope of a straw.
    Okay smart ass, chriskid.
    Ever heard of reading between the lines?
    Try it. My mistake for giving your ass an opening but a lesson for others to see how the vile operate. Always trying to discredit us.
    How’s this?
    “she’s terrified because she’s in fear for our little one’s well being, we had warned her, my son & I & she wouldn’t listen & she knows we’re very angry & now she realizes why.
    This is not a court of law people. But these bad seeds will be like lawyers without ethics to try to trip us up. They want to write history as it’s not & hope it sticks, even if it means framing & discrediting one like Dr. Wakefield or each victim, one at a time, as they are trying here.
    They can’t
    Because truth stands on our side as fraud does theirs.
    They can’t cover it up. We won’t let them.
    Good job team!

  572. Marni says:

    here’s a line i cannot take credit for, but it’s from a fellow vaccine supporter…. “just because you’ve done your homework, does not mean you get an ‘A’….”
    and, ingrid, thank you for pointing out that you are not susan.
    seems to me that jennifer pretty much owned you up there. if i were a betting woman, i’d say that jennifer is ACTUALLY educated on vaccine ingredients, how they work, what they do to the body, and how vaccines affect the body, …and, ingrid just thinks she knows (i’m guessing it’s based on a lot of anti-vaccine websites, but i can’t say that for sure, …she may have read some anti-vaccine books, too).

  573. Marni says:

    dee, ….can you please expand on the ways that aluminum passed through our lungs, mouth and skin affects our bodies differently than when it is introduced in even smaller amounts when a vaccine is injected. please explain to me the process by which this aluminum acts differently and affects our bodies differently. you claim it does. i just would like to know how and why, since you are so very educated on this matter.

  574. Marni says:

    i’m guessing a.brimhall went to google university dot com, and is clearly frustrated at not being able to keep up with your intellect kelly…

  575. Marni says:

    ingrid, …can you please post that study. the one about the more intelligent people being the non-vaxxers? did you get it on “naturalnews.com”, …or, perhaps tenpenny’s site? no. maybe it was on ageofautism.com, …??? i’d really love to read about it. how did they measure the intelligence level of people? what was it based on? i’m intrigued. please present this scientific article! thanks!

  576. Steve Michaels says:

    That was already done below where it was pointed out that CHoP, the haven of Offitt for profit and other pro-vax ‘researchers’ admit that less than 1% of externally introduced aluminium is absorbed by the body and that infected aluminium does, in fact, bioaccumulate. That means, since you seem a little slow on the uptake, that you have to take the TOTAL amount of aluminium injected (which is substantial) and not from one individual shot into consideration for toxicity.

  577. Steve Michaels says:

    Gee Kelly and Marni, so much for addressing real issues there. Glad to see that the one person who ALWAYS cries “ad hominen” is really the guilty party of the accusation flung at others. The unbridled arrogance of your position is beyond words.

  578. Steve Michaels says:

    And you claim that we should then eschew anything man-made. Both positions are ridiculous. However, there is a huge difference between making clothes and houses and tampering with the inner workings of nature. How many times were we assured that scientists knew what they were doing with nuclear power? Deep sea oil drilling? Weather manipulation? GMO’s? In EVERY case it is now coming out that good ole mother nature is having the last laugh. Nuclear power safe? Ask the Japanese (and soon the rest of the world). Deep sea oil drilling? Ask the residents of the Gulf States who are dying from Corexit and petrochemical poisoning. Weather manipulation? Ask the victims of tornadoes that have been traced to HAARP activity. GMO’s? Ask the farmers who can’t kill their weeds because they have assimilated pesticide resistance from the crops and have become ‘super weeds’. Science, used rationally, is our friend. When scientists begin to view themselves as ‘greater than God’ we get all sorts of problems.

  579. Snoozie says:

    Steve, I actually KNOW people who live in Japan. Ironically they are fine with man-made nuclear power plants. It’s the natural tsunamis and earthquakes they don’t so much like.

  580. Snoozie says:

    Steve, One would have to be injected with far, far, far more aluminum than is contained in vaccines for it to cause any harm at all.

  581. Louise says:

    Chris :
    Please take the time to actually find real independent replications, have at least a dozen children and that actually mention the MMR vaccine (because you are against any child getting the MMR vaccine) or stop using your Gish Gallop.

    Oh snap. You have comprehensively debunked Marsha’s list. Nicely played.

  582. Jeff says:

    Gary you are correct, the example I gave was childish, maybe I should have been scientific and plug numbers and scientific terms rather than dumbing things down a bit for stupid people who do the same thing to conclude that injecting mercury, aluminum, MSM, formaldehyde, and other heavy metals into your blood are acceptable and healthy.

  583. Jeff says:

    If I punch 10 people in the face, and 8 people gets a black eye, it doesn’t mean that the black eye was caused by me because you see…correlation does not equal causation.
    That term used by pro-vaxers is punch in the face to all mothers who know their child better than anyone else.

  584. Steve Michaels says:

    You really are as stupid as you come across aren’t you? Those plants were certified safe to be built on fault lines. Guess what? Certified safe means nothing! Science is NOT capable of controlling nature no matter how many times you say it can.

  585. Staci McIntosh says:

    Marsha,
    There is no way I will let these people get to me. You don’t need to worry about that. I wasn’t getting all of my comments through my Blackberry. I will say again, the proof is in the children that are a part of my life. If people will just do a little research and not just trust the doctors that are paid based on how much of their practice is vaccinated, fully vaccinated, and on schedule. You don’t just get a 600 percent increase in the past 10 years for no reason. It is right in line with the increase in vaccinations given! NO DOUBT! My 21 month old son is the healthiest baby many of my friends have seen. He is around fully vaccinated children that are constantly battling colds, ear infections, asthma, allergies, and viruses. He doesn’t catch them. Why, because his immune system hasn’t been ruined by all the chemicals and poison that so many children have had shot into their bloodstreams. You look at vaccinated children and non-vaccinated and you will be absolutely amazed at how much healthier the children that have had their immune systems left alone, are! Now that isn’t rocket science. They can come here and throw out all of the studies funded by pharmaceutical companies that they want but people will see through it. Of course, big pHARMa and all of the doctors and shareholders want to keep it a secret and keep collecting billions at whatever cost… but there are people that think more of their children than just taking these people’s word for it. A lot will see that all the doctors and pharmaceutical companies want to do is make our children sick and make them more money. The law that was put in place to protect doctors and pharmaceutical companies against any liability for vaccine injuries says it all. If vaccines are safe, why was this law put into place? On top of it….a special court for vaccine injuries? Now why was that needed? Because they all work to cover it up……. if this court wasn’t created, you can bet on it that many would be paying for what they have done to so many innocent lives!

  586. Staci McIntosh says:

    *600 percent increase in autism in the past 10 years. Sorry.

  587. Staci McIntosh says:

    I don’t google for vaccine info…. but thanks for making sure I don’t get confused “Snoozie”.

  588. Staci McIntosh says:

    I am not trying to deceive people….as you are. I am wanting people to do research….beyond “studies” done by pharmaceutical companies which is way more than you can say for yourself.

  589. Suzanne says:

    Snoozie :Incorrect, Steve. Most vaccines do not make money for pharmaceutical companies (who are trying to abandon vaccine production) or pediatricians.

    Is that a fact. Do you have proof of that, Snoozie? Pharmaceutical companies spending billions on R&D, PR, legal and lobbying all for the sake of saving mankind? What altruism. I would love to see the figures. Can you provide them because I cannot find a vaccine manufacturer that is losing money…

  590. Marsha McClelland says:

    Steve Michaels :Gee Kelly and Marni, so much for addressing real issues there. Glad to see that the one person who ALWAYS cries “ad hominen” is really the guilty party of the accusation flung at others. The unbridled arrogance of your position is beyond words.

    Amen to that, Steve. I included the following in a prior comment but think it deserves repeating as it explains a lot.
    The pro vax side, ignorantly, (that means void of fact in case they think it means stupid), accuses our side of using ad homonyms. The difference in our attacks are, our side uses attacks of truth debunking the fraud they pretend science & they use deception & down right lies, attacking us, personally. So, only one side is using ad homonyms directed at good people & it’s, certainly, not our team.
    This definition of herd mentality says it all;
    “Herd mentality describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors”

  591. Marsha McClelland says:

    Snoozie :Steve, I actually KNOW people who live in Japan. Ironically they are fine with man-made nuclear power plants. It’s the natural tsunamis and earthquakes they don’t so much like.

    OMG. You can’t be serious, snoozie. That is the craziest thing I’ve heard you say yet. WOW!

  592. Marsha McClelland says:

    Snoozie :Steve, One would have to be injected with far, far, far more aluminum than is contained in vaccines for it to cause any harm at all.

    Snoozie, it’s common knowledge aluminum is in our air, food & water & adds up. Just as mercury from different sources add up. Combined with other toxins, especially those ingredients found in vaccines, which is the catalyst, all take major toll, together. Common sense & logic dictate this.

  593. Gary says:

    No, Jeff, your logic has failed you once again. You have failed to understand the principle.

  594. Gary says:

    Except that the sources you would replace those studies with are much worse. You’d replace independently replicated scientific studies with rumor, anecdotes, blatant lies, and Google. You may be sincere, but you are also deceptive.

  595. Snoozie says:

    Steve Michaels :
    You really are as stupid as you come across aren’t you? Those plants were certified safe to be built on fault lines. Guess what? Certified safe means nothing! Science is NOT capable of controlling nature no matter how many times you say it can.

    That’s an odd comment from someone who claims that sanitation and hygiene “saved us” from diseases. From my perspective, science did an awesome job of eradicating smallpox.
    I notice that you and Marsha resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks when presented with logic. I don’t mind. It diminishes your credibility. So go ahead and keep up with the ad hominem attacks. Parents on the fence will be able to tell who has logic, reason, and science behind them.

  596. Snoozie says:

    Marsha McClelland :

    Snoozie :Steve, One would have to be injected with far, far, far more aluminum than is contained in vaccines for it to cause any harm at all.

    Snoozie, it’s common knowledge aluminum is in our air, food & water & adds up. Just as mercury from different sources add up. Combined with other toxins, especially those ingredients found in vaccines, which is the catalyst, all take major toll, together. Common sense & logic dictate this.

    If aluminum is in our air, food, and water, that makes in natural, yes? It seems our bodies are capable of handling this regular, natural assault.

  597. Snoozie says:

    percival :
    It’s a big ole tell that you are perseverating on your own comments at one-to-two minute intervals, Marsha.

    Percival: Marsha is becoming quite frantic. She summoned her cavalry here, and yet not one of them has been able to mount a convincing response to her thorough debunking. (see comment #581).

  598. Liz Ditz says:

    Point of clarification.
    Marsha claims:

    Your side’s many attacks on those being sincere & civil are recorded here, you know?
    They are based in anger & deception.
    We don’t call you fxxx wits & such. We don’t make severely callous remarks designed to hurt as your side is stooping to. We tell it like it really is.
    Don’t forget “Crotchfruit” is on your team & his attacks are epic as are many others on your team, also.

    What Marsha is trying to do here is to make all vaccine advocates responsible for the words and behaviors of every vaccine advocate. That is wrong. It is a red herring fallacy.
    While I am steadfast in my knowledge that: vaccines are nearly the lowest-risk medicine we have available to us, and are one of the greatest boons to public health ever created, I am not part of a “side” or a “team”.
    I am only responsible for my own words.

  599. Gary says:

    “So, which bit of 1-5% don’t achieve any benefit have you missed?”
    I didn’t mis any of it. You characterized this as “won’t necessarily have any benefit” which is barely technically accurate while still being quite misleading.
    “By the way, I have not in any way tried to summarily dismiss efficacy of vaccines. You keep turning things around like I have. I question SAFETY and RISK/BENEFIT claims. So what if I avoid a week of measles for my child if he dies from cancer 20 years later? ”
    No, stevey, you don’t “question” them, you dismiss them as I have pointed out. You consistently over estimate the risk and underestimate the benefit. These two quotes from you are a perfect example. A 85 to 88 percent chance of developing immunity is translated by you as ‘won’t necessarily have any benefit’ while little more than a hypothetical risk of cancer with no evidence whatsoever to back it up is characterized as ‘if he dies from cancer 20 years later’.
    See, stevey, if you were merely questioning vaccine safety, you would try to honestly measure both risks in order to compare them. You have never once done this. You concentrate exclusively on the risk and ignore, downplay, or disregard the benefits. The pathetically inept conversation you have had several times with different posters here about the decline of diseases AND the decline of deaths from diseases is evidence against this claim of yours.
    You are NOT merely claiming that vaccines are not safe enough. You are denying that they work AND you are making claims of risks which are not demonstrable.
    “You are ignoring the fact that your own sources refuse to make safety claims that you are making.”
    No, stevey, I am ignoring your claims without evidence. I am ignoring the possibility that vaccines cause cancer because there is no reliable evidence that they do.
    Try this as an honesty exercise. Try to determine, without resort to anti vaccination propaganda, why vaccines might not have been “evaluated for carcinogenesis”.

  600. Gary says:

    Well, if you also included reliable facts, that might have been ok.
    Why do you think that a fictionalized overheard exchange is more convincing than hundreds of years of rigorous scientific studies?

  601. Gary says:

    Staci – “You don’t just get a 600 percent increase in the past 10 years for no reason. It is right in line with the increase in vaccinations given! NO DOUBT!”
    HUGE DOUBT! The number of vaccines has increased how much in the last 10 years? Is it anywhere close to 600 percent? How about the number of antigens? They’ve actually gone down in the last few decades. How does that jive with the increase in autism? The number of vaccinations has varied amongst countries, but the increase in autism has not (or at least not by the same order of magnitude).
    So, Staci, how does an increase from 11 vaccines to 15 in the last 10 years result in a 600 percent increase in autism?
    Perhaps you meant the changes in the early 90s? The vaccine schedule in the US changed from 7 vaccines in the 70 to 9 vaccines in the mid 90s. How is an increase of between 30 and 50 percent “right in line” with an increase of 600 percent?
    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-schedule/history-of-vaccine-schedule.html

  602. Gary says:

    No, Babs, not entirely. It was about autistic children with bowel problems in which he reported finding vaccine derived measles virus. It also included assertions that both the autistic AND bowel symptoms followed the measles vaccination. And, although the assertion was not made very strongly in the paper, Wakefield spared no breath whatsoever touting that he had uncovered a potential causal link between autism and the MMR vaccine. He called several times for switching to individual vaccines. None of the papers Marsha listed support any of this. Certainly not the MMR autism link.
    But at this point that is not the main objection. At this point it has become obvious that Marsha cannot even defend her position that Wakefield’s fraud was replicated. Frankly, I’m less concerned about the details than I am about her absolute inability to explain her own position.

  603. Gary says:

    Laura – “That was THEN, not now and we are far from there not just because of vaccines – if at all – but because an increase in hygiene, better diet for the most part and antibiotics that treat infections that usually are what cause measles deaths. Your numbers don’t scare me LOL (nor should they scare you if you could DO MATH). ”
    Laura, you are missing the essential point that without the vaccines the number of infected would quickly rise to almost the entire population. The death rate from measles is down because the incidence is down. And the incidence is down because of vaccinations.
    The other thing you are missing is that vaccine risks are once while disease risks are lifetime. If we take your number of 1 in 3 million, that should be multiplied PER YEAR. Are you planning to only live for this year? Than you have to roll the dice again next year and the year after that.
    You are also misinterpreting the incidence statistics. I’m not certain where you got them from, but even if we assume your numbers are right, it is not true that the chance of catching the measles was 1 in 670 over a lifetime. Again, that was the yearly chance. Before the vaccine, almost everyone caught the measles eventually. True, only a few hundred thousand became infected every year, but over the course of a life time, that risk was enough to mean that almost everyone would get it.

  604. Steve Michaels says:

    Where is the logic in saying that the Japanese are by and large happy with nuclear power now that the north is uninhabitable and they are now considering moving the Capital out of Tokyo because, hundreds of miles from the power station, the radiation is too high to live in long term?
    Why don’t we do a test of your lack of faith in sanitation and hygiene and nutrition. Get all of your vaccines up to date and go live in the squalor of Haiti or Zimbabwe and see if you don’t catch something. For crying out loud, American health is so precarious that a simple trip to Mexico makes them ill for weeks. Why? Because the water is not as clean as American water. I am truly sorry if I called you stupid if you are not. It’s just that some of the stuff you come out with is beyond any rational persons ability to not laugh at. You REALLY think that the Japanese are clamoring for more nuclear power?
    It has not gone unnoticed that while you try to team me up with Marsha, I have not condoned or supported anything she has said, nor have I refuted anything. I am my own person AND you have completely ignored several key points that I have debunked. Herd immunity is a myth as virtually no adults are up to date on their vaccines according to the CDC and the FACT that no vaccines are tested at all for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility. The silence is deafening.

  605. Steve Michaels says:

    And you are trying to make Marsha responsible for everyone who disagrees with you. Still nothing about the lack of testing for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility that NO vaccine has. Yet you still claim that it is safe. How can it be known to be safe (as you are steadfast in your knowledge) when safety testing has never even occurred? That is not knowledge, that is faith. Faith morphed into ‘knowledge’ is dogma. It definitely is NOT science.

  606. Steve Michaels says:

    Yes and it is the uncontrolled and untested natural reactions of the immune system that make vaccines dangerous. I agree that vaccines look good on paper, but so did building the Fukushima power plant. Now the radiation cloud is encompassing the world. And what do the government agencies you depend on do? Refuse to test for radiation and increase ‘acceptable’ limits so that you don’t know how bad it really is.
    http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/epa-to-increase-radioactivity-safety-limits/
    And this is the same government that is telling you how safe vaccines are.

  607. Steve Michaels says:

    Gary :
    Laura, you are missing the essential point that without the vaccines the number of infected would quickly rise to almost the entire population. The death rate from measles is down because the incidence is down. And the incidence is down because of vaccinations.
    The other thing you are missing is that vaccine risks are once while disease risks are lifetime. If we take your number of 1 in 3 million, that should be multiplied PER YEAR. Are you planning to only live for this year? Than you have to roll the dice again next year and the year after that.

    Again Gary I must ask, have you actually read what you wrote? 32 separate pathogens before age 6,and an additional 14 from age 7-14. Just one risk???? And your maths on infection are pre-preschool. You are trying to say that if you don’t get a vaccine, you will potentially get measles every year for the rest of your life. If the entire population contracted measles, then the entire population would be immune. You can’t say that you need a vaccine to confer immunity because you will may get the illness every year if you don’t, implying that getting the disease itself will not confer immunity. It makes no sense.

  608. Gary says:

    Yes, stevey, 1 risk. At least when compared to the risk of exposure to a disease.
    Yes, stevey, if the entire population contracted measles AT THE SAME TIME then the entire population would become immune and die out. However, the world is a bigger place than you imagine. However, not everyone gets sick at the same time. Some people get sick, infect others, get better and then those others get sick. The disease moves around in the population because there is always a fresh source of insufficiently resistant people someplace.
    This means that yes, if you don’t get vaccinated, and you have never had the disease, there is a much larger chance that you will get the disease every year for the rest of your life or until you develop immunity. I’m at something of a loss as to how to dumb that down any more. The concept is life time risk. Maybe you should google it.
    I did not imply that getting the disease does not confer immunity. Quite the opposite.

  609. Kelly says:

    Steve, breastmilk hasn’t been tested for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential either, how do you know breastmilk is safe? OMG, the government is pushing breastfeeding and breast milk has never been tested for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential!
    Based on your understanding of biology, please explain why you think vaccines would be carcinogenic or mutagenic. Once you have detailed your hypothesis, describe your experimental protocol to test it.

  610. Gary says:

    “Herd immunity is a myth as virtually no adults are up to date on their vaccines”
    Sorry, stevey, but this does not mean that herd immunity is a myth. MAYBE it means that the population in question does not have sufficient immunity to achieve herd immunity. But that is a far cry from demonstrating that the concept itself is a myth.
    But then you’ve already been shown this and still persist.

  611. ChrisKid says:

    If it were just the ‘government’ telling us that, you might have half a point. But it isn’t. ‘The government’ didn’t just suddenly decide they wanted to promote vaccines. It’s thousands of scientists, doctors, statisticians, over decades, telling us how safe vaccines are. Along with the millions of us who have experienced them, personally and for our children, without problem. The millions of parents who no longer have to wonder constantly if their children will survive childhood. Yes, I know that’s anecdotal evidence. That’s why I listed it after the actual science.

  612. ChrisKid says:

    “traced to HAARP activity” Really Steve? Can you show us that evidence? Or do you just buy into everything you read, as long as it doesn’t come from a reputable source? How exactly would that work, really?

  613. Kat says:

    Marni, can you provide the quote of when either Susan or I said that God was sparing specific people from disease? Hm, I smell a whole lot of assumptions and embellishments when reading your and Kelly’s posts.
    Now, I wonder why you would do that… (or so many others do to their ‘opponents’ in politics)?
    Painting a portrait of something(one) false is why.

  614. Kelly says:

    Hey Kat, instead of speculating on the assumptions and embellishments in mine and Marni’s posts, how about you to post that health research that shows unvaccinated people get VPD less frequently than vaccinated people that you mentioned.

  615. Kat says:

    Marni, CHOP – to which this site is affiliated – says aluminum can remain in the lungs, bones, and brains of people for 3 years after immunization/injection.
    1. How does it get from from point of injection to these places in the body?
    2. Why does it settle in these 3 places?
    3. What keeps it from becoming a neurotoxin while there?

  616. Kat says:

    You’ve made my point again Kelly. I never said one group has less disease over the other. You added that to what I said about living healthfully.
    Maybe what you really want to ask is why *I* am choosing to no longer vaccinate my children? Yes? No? Surely you know the answer varies from one degree to another between various families?

  617. Steve Michaels says:

    “Yes, stevey, if the entire population contracted measles AT THE SAME TIME then the entire population would become immune and die out.”
    Wow, now measles is a super bug with a 100% mortality rate!! You just keep getting better and better!

  618. Kelly says:

    Yes you did Kat. Let me remind you that you said:

    Susan, I can’t speak on your behalf but I am confident in speaking on behalf of many others who feel the same way as I do. Treating our immune system well and as it was intended for human bodies, eating fresh whole fruits and vegetables, drinking plenty of water, exercising, responding well to stress, and avoiding unnecessary chemical exposures, etc, are very logical and intelligent things to do. There is certainly nothing hokey about that… and it doesn’t take a ‘person of faith’ to recognize that eating garden veggies is better for your body than a processed, artifically veggie-flavored ‘energy’ bar.
    Does it guarantee a disease and illness free life? No. It just gives you a better ‘shot’.

    So eating healthy, exercise, thinking well, low stress give you a better shot of not getting disease, according to you. When I disagreed, you said it again:

    Simple: Eat well. Think well. Exercise. Avoid unnecessary pollutants. Health research confirms this is good for us, but that almost sounds silly to state.

    This is a vaccine advocacy blog – I would say all those things PLUS vaccinating gives you the best shot to avoid vaccine preventable illnesses. I’m limiting it to VPD, because vaccines have no effect on other illnesses. A link to support that claim was provided by Gary. So, I ask you again, please provide the health research that simple lifestyle changes, as you have described, prevents VPD better than being vaccinated.

  619. Kelly says:

    He means measles virus would die out, Steve. This is the idea behind using vaccination to eradicate disease. You know, like we did with smallpox. And vaccination has also eliminated other VPDs from many countries, diseases like polio, measles, diphtheria, rubella only happen in countries like the US when someone brings them in from other countries. Right now, unvaccinated persons are causing measles outbreaks all over the US. Measles is not endemic to the US and was eliminated by vaccination. Funny how that works eh?

  620. Steve Michaels says:

    Firstly, I am not condoning or recommending this particular website, but it was the first one on searching that has at least a partial list of all of the patents currently held for HAARP. Interestingly, the post is from Aug 2010 and it would seem that his year’s pet weather modification is tornadoes if you subscribe to his ideas.
    http://criticalbelievers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=earth&action=display&thread=6422
    This is a scientist who has a better grasp of this stuff than I do.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgRlYt5DjJY&feature=youtu.be
    And this one is the kicker.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYHzQRxNdDI&feature=player_embedded
    This guy predicts severe weather based on HAARP signature radar on weather maps. And he gets it right.
    Not on topic, but since you asked.

  621. Kelly says:

    This is CHOP’s page on aluminum:
    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/aluminum.html
    I’m not seeing where it is saying that aluminum from vaccines stays in the body for 3 years. Perhaps I just missed it, and you can provide the link and quote on the page? Thanks, Kat.

  622. Kat says:

    Perhaps you are referring to this comment I wrote about living healthfully?
    *Does it guarantee a disease and illness free life? No. It just gives you a better ‘shot’.*
    In that statement I wasn’t only referring to what I believe as, yes, a better chance of avoiding illness with the basic principles I listed above as well as other prophylactic (yet simple) measurements I take and our civilized living conditions.
    My political stance is to use my resources, as a responsible person and decent human, to support others in the quest to do the same (those with less education and money, for instance). Flat out – I don’t agree with the government taking complete control over our health when there are plenty of us to volunteer (or work) to do that job for others as well as ourselves. (I suspect there are many pro-vaxers, that if we added up their time and money spent on promoting pharma and govt regulations, they could be helping many families live with more health and happiness on a daily basis).
    God forbid someone get an illness ~ let’s help them/us recover as fast and well as possible whenever possible (but I know there will be disagreements on how to approach that as well). Yes, I absolutely believe there are numerous ways humans have been doing that naturally throughout history – psychologically, medicinally, and spiritually. Unfortunately, however – YES – it is the fate of many of us that we may die of some illness or disease. And for sure, we WILL ALL die and each day many grieve over this fact. (Perhaps an existential crisis has pushed humans to want to discover every reason and every single route to death to try to prevent it, idk). It remains to be seen if that will ever happen. In the meantime, there are numerous ways to live a contented life and while we gather the answers we hope to achieve, we must not get too caught in the trap of short-sighted or incomplete science – OR – others who are taking advantage of the system for their own gain.
    I believe that integrative health is the way to go with (many) good reason(s). We must account for all parts of health/human life being studied and practiced, conventional and alternative, when we are viewing what makes for a healthy life lived. Perhaps vaccinations can be a part of that equation – perhaps – but we can’t poison children (or adults) while we carry out what ‘seems’ like a good idea in theory.
    Just generally — my decisions are based on 20 years of studying health, both in and out of college. (I have 2 advanced degrees and nearly a 3rd). I have done a thorough review of the vaccination literature as anyone else can do if they wish. And on the non-intellectual side, I do ‘attempt’ to follow what my religious beliefs dictate or back up in my studies and I have studied other spiriutal traditions as well, again both inside and out of academia. I am quite confident in my approach and am not in the least affected by the current political trend to make people of faith seem less than intelligent to support their egos or agendas, except that it reaffirms my need in this life to make a difference in a positive direction. (I will agree however that as with any other type of human group, there have been and always will be extremists or people who simply get it wrong).
    I am also very interested in preserving our democracy and so again, I do not believe our government should be deciding whether or not my family does or does not immunize. Being that many others are ‘coming to’ and realizing their freedoms are being infringed upon, I suggest figuring out a better way to pursue helping others to health and preventing illness, if you believe so strongly in herding. Because, unless our country truly changes from its core, many will continue not to vaccinate and I suspect many are yet to follow. What is our responsibility then? What are the other possibilities for prevention Kelly?
    Otherwise, you are decidedly overlooking some great natural resources and asking that our rights and freedoms be taken away because you don’t believe in them. Where do we ever draw the line, then, with our rules and regulations?
    This is a very complex matter needing a much broader venue than a Shot of Prev board, for sure.

  623. Kelly says:

    I don’t want to assume anything Kat, so please feel free to correct me if I have misrepresented your thoughts.
    You believe in prevention of disease through healthy living but don’t recognize vaccines as “as other prophylactic (yet simple) measurements I take and our civilized living conditions.”
    Instead, you think children dying from a preventable disease is OK, because we all have to die sometime? Do you not think children like Abigail deserved to go to school, get married, have children, explore the world, and live her dreams because it was her time to die? Yes we all die, Kat. The tragedy is when children die before they have a chance to realize their potential. The anti-vaccine movement advocates for childhood deaths as a natural part of living. I’m sorry, but this is not OK with me. These children could have been great leaders and a benefit to society and their life was cut short because parents were mislead by the falsehoods of the antivaccine movement. People like Ann, who lie about vaccine injuries to scare people away from vaccinations for her own selfish motives disgust me. She further thinks the pro-vaccine movement is thrilled when a child dies.
    No, we aren’t thrilled when a child dies. That is the whole point. When a child dies for any reason, whether from a vaccine preventable disease or a legitimate vaccine injury, it is a great tragedy. The fact of the matter is the vaccinating will prevent more children from dying than not vaccinating. Vaccines cause orders of magnitudes less death and injury than the disease.
    The safety and effectiveness of vaccines are not a theory, Kat. There are literally thousands of papers that span 200 years of history that shows this.
    The issue of mandatory vaccination is another ball of wax, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about people, like yourself, that are against vaccines, not because there is a demonstrable harm that is being ignored. You are against vaccines for your own screwed up philosophies on life. A philosophy that thinks childhood death is something we should just accept. You cannot provide research that any alternative approaches work better than vaccination or why these alternatives cannot be used in addition to vaccination.
    This is not a complex matter Kat. The matter is really simple. There are people, antivaxers, that are spreading the lie that vaccines are harmful. There is absolutely nothing to support this position except misinformation, misconception, logical fallacies and emotion. This position is harmful to children. Vaccine advocacy groups, like this blog, are here to counter that lie, Kat. We do it for the health of children, because kids like Abigail don’t deserve to die because someone was ignorant about vaccines. In Abigail’s case, it was her doctor that was ignorant, someone that her parents turned to for sound medical advice. Abigail and her family paid the price of that ignorance. The fact that some people would like to see more children suffer or even die from a preventable disease totally disgusts me. To then accuse me of being an arrogant cow, dumb twit, pharma shill and whatever ad hominem the antivaxers have used here is just another example of the disgusting characteristics of anti-vaxers.

  624. Kat says:

    Kelly you say, “The tragedy is when children die before they have a chance to realize their potential.” I agree with that and I also agree with the sentiment that many children and adults should not suffer b/c of our attempts to try and make our reality better. Great goal, different approaches and beliefs involved Kelly. I think most on the pro and anti sides are in agreement there. (I am guessing Ann made that comment about pro-vaxers out of anguish of other remarks made. I do believe there are attempts to fire people up around here as a debate tactic). But, moving along…
    Similarly you said, “Instead, you think children dying from a preventable disease is OK, because we all have to die sometime?” No, no I don’t. I assume there are many on the pro side who also do not believe this, putting aside a few bad, but perhaps powerful, eggs.
    “mislead by the falsehoods of the antivaccine movement.” Deep sigh here b/c I feel there is quite a standoff – again, both sides believing this about the other. There are many educated people on our side too Kelly, including allopathic doctors, researchers, and many other health professionals. The scope of this issue is far reaching and wide and there are strong social reasons (among others) why more conventionalists are not coming to the fore.
    Kelly, if you are bothered by anti-vaxer personal comments that you feel may not apply to you, why do you and other pro-vaxers do the same? It doesn’t promote good discussion– it ends up in emotional squabbles and off topic tangles. I have often found that the condescension starts with the pro-vaxers, due to claims of anti-intellectualism, and I am saddened when it ‘gets to’ the anti-vaxers, but I can also understand it. I like to stick the points and not make sweeping generalizations.
    On saying ‘theory’ (rather loosely which I know is dangerous to do here)… I say that because I too believe the research/conclusions are vastly incomplete… My main concern is the toxins and what other areas of health research and practice (biopsychosocial and spiritual elements considered) have to say to inform our medical practices. And, no, I don’t believe the political and right to choose discussion is to be put aside from this…
    ps. I am still waiting for someone to answer my CHOP-aluminum questions ~ I have now posted in maybe 3 places on this page. Any help is appreciated.

  625. Nathan says:

    Kat, Here’s what CHOP actually says:
    “Most of the aluminum that enters the body is eliminated
    quickly. Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters
    the bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food
    is absorbed through the intestines into the blood. Either way,
    most of the aluminum in the bloodstream is immediately bound
    by a protein called transferrin, which carries aluminum to the
    kidneys where it is eliminated from the body. About 50 percent
    of aluminum in vaccines or in food is eliminated in less than
    24 hours; 85 percent is eliminated in two weeks and 96 percent
    is eliminated in three years. The ability of the body to rapidly
    eliminate aluminum accounts for its excellent record of safety.”
    And,
    “The small quantity of aluminum in food, water or
    vaccines that is not eliminated by the kidneys begins to
    accumulate in the body.
    Most of the aluminum
    settles in the bones,
    some in the lungs and
    some in the brain. By the
    time children become
    adults, they will have
    accumulated between 50
    and 100 milligrams of
    aluminum, almost all of
    which comes from food.”
    http://www.chop.edu/export/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/aluminum.pdf
    My reading of this is that the majority of aluminum, whether from food or a vaccine, is bound to a transferrin and eliminated rapidly, but it takes up to three years to get 96% of the protein-bound aluminum out of the body. The remaining that is not excreted would be what has bioaccumulated permanently. But (assuming that that full 4% has accumulated permanently) that would be about 4% of the 4 milligrams, or .16 milligrams. This is a tiny, tiny amount compared to the 50-100 milligrams of aluminum that a person accumulates over his/her lifetime, or even over the first few years of life from food.
    You are probably keen to ask “But does this tiny, tiny, amount represent a significant risk to a developing six-month old baby?” There are a few reasons why this is unlikely. First, as the CHOP article points out, assuming 1% of the aluminum is absorbed from breast milk/formula babies get just as much aluminum from breast milk (more, for the “good nursers”) and far more absorbed aluminum from formula. It is unlikely that the aluminum in vaccines contributes significantly to problems in light of this. Also, we can be confident that the aluminum in vaccines does not cause acute toxicity because of the amount of research on the subject (for example, here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14871632), and long-term studies show no differences in neurodevelopmental outcomes at 7-10 years in children who received less vaccines (and therefore less aluminum) (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/peds.2009-2489v1.pdf)

  626. Steve Michaels says:

    In answer to your request Kat, I found this after a cursory search. It does not prove your claim, BUT it does disprove Kelly’s assertion that aluminium is safe. Safety requires proof of safety, and according to this abstract (which is based on ingestion): “not enough information is available on possible effects of life-long exposure to aluminum in the environment, diet and medications, which over decades may lead to accumulation of this substance with expressions of toxicity.”
    If the effects have not been studied, then the claims made by Kelly are mere assertions without foundation.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1842454

  627. Nik says:

    In regards to accumulation of aluminum. What if the liver was damaged and/or things such as glutathione levels were low enough that said child could not properly expel said metal from their system. Would the accumulation be greater and if so wouldn’t that put them at risk for higher levels then has been previously stated(with proper filtering)?

  628. Babs says:

    @Gary, but if you exclude the part about MMR being in the gut, do the studies then mimic his findings? By mimic I mean are they finding the same type of damage/condition minus the whole MMR bit.

  629. Babs says:

    Again; dos anyone have any studies that show vaccines don’t cause autism? (Already have a bunch of single MMR vaccination and thimerosal by itself. Still looking for the rest on the schedule) Any help is greatly appreciated.

  630. Steve Michaels says:

    Good to see you jump in here finally Nathan! (and that is sincere) Here’s an opposing view to the Offitt for profit view of aluminium in the human body:
    From: The biological behaviour and bioavailability of aluminium in man, with special reference to studies employing aluminium-26 as a tracer: review and study update
    N. D. Priest
    Professor of Environmental Toxicology, Middlesex University, Queensway, Enfield, UK, EN3 4SF
    Received 7th November 2003, Accepted 26th March 2004
    Relevant points: Sec 8 on ingestion:
    “Given the ubiquitous nature of aluminium in the environment, it is surprising the human body contains, at most, only a few
    tens of milligrams of this element and that it has no known essential function. This low level results both from the
    insolubility, at neutral pH, of most natural aluminium compounds and from the protective barrier that the body’s gut wall presents to the uptake from food of potentially toxicmetal ions.”
    From Section 10 on injection:
    “The uptake of aluminium through wounds is generally considered to be of little consequence except in the situation where aluminium is injected into the body as a vaccine adjuvant. Such adjuvants are added to vaccines to potentiate the immune response of the antigen. One of two adjuvants is commonly employed, either aluminium hydroxyphosphate or
    aluminium oxyhydroxide–both are insoluble and adsorb charged antigens at physiological pH 7.4. As these are injected directly into the body then they circumvent the body’s protective barriers and when they dissolve they can directly
    enhance the body burden of aluminium. For example, twenty injections, each containing 0.5 mg of aluminium, could release 10 mg of aluminium into the body (it might take 4000 days to reach the same level of intake from normal dietary intakes) of which 0.2 mg would be retained as a persistent body burden–
    making vaccines an important source of body aluminium; this is particularly true for children.”
    Note that the injections as demonstrated would place the same amount of aluminium into the body as 4000 days (that is over 10 YEARS) of ingestion. That is a SUBSTANTIAL difference.

  631. Steve Michaels says:

    See my post currently #29 for more information on the aluminium issue. But in answer to your question, it is primarily the kidneys which filter out aluminium so the highest risk is for people with renal failure.

  632. DixieDiva says:

    Gary :
    No, stevey, you read that into them because you simply cannot resist reading anti vaccine crap into everything.
    What it actually says is that various events have been reported, including serious ones, but that no causal link has been established AND that the vaccine has a very high degree of inducing immunity.
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr…/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

    “No causal link has been established…” What utter rubbish. Tell this to the policeman who stops you for driving under the influence, you’ll be laughed all the way to the drunk tank!
    And answer THE point raised instead of ignoring them and asking other questions that are simply irrelevant to the issue. The simple fact is you can’t argue from a scientific standpoint when the science has not been done. Period. You have no science from which to base vaccine “safety.” Not even Poul Thorsen junk science.
    After the ‘safe’ Rotarix and Rotateq have been on the market, independent researchers were shocked to find they are contaminated with the PCV1 and PCV2 pig viruses. What else are they contaminated with that we don’t know about? This is not what I call ‘safe’ and certainly reduces even further any potential benefit factor if there ever was any, I certainly think the odds would be better to risk contracting diarrhea especially when the vaccine label indicates a side effect is —> diarrhea LMAO! Honestly… beyond silly.

  633. Gary says:

    But without that part, who cares? Seriously, Wakefield riled up a huge media campaign in the UK proclaiming that the MMR vaccine was unsafe. If you ignore that part of his fraud, who cares?
    But to answer your question, no. None of those studies even confirmed Wakefields suggestion that bowel problems had much to do with autism.

  634. Kelly says:

    Kat :
    Kelly you say, “The tragedy is when children die before they have a chance to realize their potential.” I agree with that and I also agree with the sentiment that many children and adults should not suffer b/c of our attempts to try and make our reality better. Great goal, different approaches and beliefs involved Kelly. I think most on the pro and anti sides are in agreement there. (I am guessing Ann made that comment about pro-vaxers out of anguish of other remarks made. I do believe there are attempts to fire people up around here as a debate tactic). But, moving along…

    I think that although we agree on the goal, the difference is that the vaccine approach has been shown to work, the alternative approaches have not. To me, alternative approaches are akin to a dog chasing his tail. The dog has the goal of catching his tail, but his efforts are futile as his method doesn’t work. You have the goal of improving health, but your efforts are futile as your methods don’t work.

    “mislead by the falsehoods of the antivaccine movement.” Deep sigh here b/c I feel there is quite a standoff – again, both sides believing this about the other. There are many educated people on our side too Kelly, including allopathic doctors, researchers, and many other health professionals. The scope of this issue is far reaching and wide and there are strong social reasons (among others) why more conventionalists are not coming to the fore.

    It’s not really a standoff. The difference is that you have beliefs and we have science. You have logical fallacies, we have reason. For example, your second sentence is a logical fallacy called appeal to popularity. Just because other people believe the same things you do, doesn’t make them right. The whole group of you just have a bunch of beliefs that are supported by nothing. If asked for science to support their claims, anti-vaxers are either silent or misrepresent the science. Still waiting for the health research that you assert shows that not vaccinating leads to better health than vaccinating, for example.

    Kelly, if you are bothered by anti-vaxer personal comments that you feel may not apply to you, why do you and other pro-vaxers do the same?

    I challenge you to go through my posts here and find one where I used an ad hominem when one was not directed at me. The look at the anti-vaxer postings and try to find one that doesn’t contain ad hominems. I agree that ad hominems weaken an argument, but unfortunately since that’s all anti-vaxers have, it is par for the course.

    I have often found that the condescension starts with the pro-vaxers, due to claims of anti-intellectualism, and I am saddened when it ‘gets to’ the anti-vaxers, but I can also understand it. I like to stick the points and not make sweeping generalizations.

    When people who claim to be so educated make mistakes in basic science, it is hard to not be condescending when you actually are educated. The experts that recommend vaccines spend many years gaining knowledge on which their recommendations are based. The arrogance to think that someone can spend 400 hours of “research” (for example) and not only be at par but superior to these experts really does dumbfound me. I’m also shocked at the anti-vaxers that come here to troll and then call “foul” when they get called out on their BS. This is a pro-vaccine blog. If anti-vaxers don’t want to be challenged on their position that is contrary to the blog’s purpose, they shouldn’t post that position here. There are many anti-vaccine blogs and facebook pages that censor pro-vax comments. If an anti-vaxer wants everyone to think how brilliant they are, they should post there as not only will they not be challenged, a bunch of people are likely to give them a “high 5” and “amen” to back-up those shared beliefs.

    On saying ‘theory’ (rather loosely which I know is dangerous to do here)… I say that because I too believe the research/conclusions are vastly incomplete… My main concern is the toxins and what other areas of health research and practice (biopsychosocial and spiritual elements considered) have to say to inform our medical practices. And, no, I don’t believe the political and right to choose discussion is to be put aside from this…

    The key here is that these are your beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it reality. My kids believe in Santa Claus and they can give you lots of “evidence” that he exists. They have read books on him, seen him with their own eyes at the mall, seen the presents under the tree with the tag that says “from Santa Claus” written right on it. Those that know better think it is cute. If the anti-vaccine sentiment didn’t have the potential to harm innocent children, I would think their belief in the “toxinz” to be cute too.

    ps. I am still waiting for someone to answer my CHOP-aluminum questions ~ I have now posted in maybe 3 places on this page. Any help is appreciated.

    I believe Nathan has addressed your concerns on that. He answered my question too, because I could find the reference you mentioned.

  635. Kat says:

    Will reply more later or tomorrow, just a quick question first before going: This accumulation – is that per injection?
    Thank you for your responses Steve and Nathan.

  636. Gary says:

    What the heck are you talking about, DixieDiva? Perhaps you did not follow the whole correlation is not causation discussion. But the fact is that the existence of a claim of correlation is not sufficient to prove causation.
    A policeman who arrests someone for DWI after a breathalyzer or blood test has some significant science on his side that alcohol does indeed cause behavior changes. Not merely correlation data (although surely that exists), but biological evidence of causal links, and quite a bit of data showing that the correlation is extremely strong in many billions of humans.
    Let me reverse this on you. Imagine that the legislature passes a law stating that the mere presence of fructose in your system is reason enough to arrest you as driving under diminished capacity. And then when asked the reason why, they point to several eye witnesses who say they saw particular individuals drink large sodas just before a car accident? Would you accept that evidence as proof that corn syrup causes car accidents?

  637. Gary says:

    It seems odd that the ND Priest paper proposes aluminum in the MMR vaccine. Maybe I’m just missing it?
    Also, his numbers seem to be WAY off. There is nowhere near .5mg of aluminum in 20 shots of vaccine.
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/6/1394
    Here’s the table of aluminum in vaccines:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content-nw/full/112/6/1394/T3
    Its from 2003, so it may not be 100% correct, but it is almost certainly very close.
    There is a DTaP vaccine, Infanrix, which contains 0.625mg of aluminum salts. There is a Hep B vaccine, Recombivax HB, which contains 0.5 mg of aluminum salts. But the rest of the childhood vaccines all contain much less. At least half.
    According to the schedule, http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/0-6yrs-schedule-pr.pdf ,
    Vaccine Shots Aluminum Age
    (milligrams) Months
    Hep B 3 0.75 – 1.5 0 – 18
    DTaP 5 0.85 – 3.125 2 – 70
    Hib 3 0.625 2 – 15
    PCV 4 0.5 2 – 18
    Hep A 2 0.5 12 – 23
    Total: 17 3.225 – 6.25
    So, in the first 6 years of life a maximum of 6.25 mg of aluminum salts (not the weight of the aluminum) are injected per the recommended schedule.

  638. Nathan says:

    Kat,
    If you are referring to what I wrote, that is the bioaccumulation that would occur from all of the vaccinations over the first six months of life, according to the CHOP document to which you are referring.
    Steve,

    Good to see you jump in here finally Nathan! (and that is sincere)

    Yes, I was interested at the prospect of discussing the pros and cons of vaccines with someone who seems to be logical, level-headed, and well-written. For a change. And that, too, is sincere.

    Here’s an opposing view to the Offitt for profit view of aluminium in the human body

    That’s pretty cynical considering the CHOP article lists its references. But, I do appreciate that you gave what seems to be a good primary source on that, Steve. Bravo. The thing is, I can’t make the 4000 figure add up, using the author’s own numbers. This is from the section on aluminum in foods:
    “Given the above data it is reasonable to assume daily
    aluminium intakes in the diet of about 10 mg per day. Using
    this figure, an estimated retention of absorbed aluminium of
    2% (derived from ref. 152)… it is possible to
    estimate the likely range of values of the fractional absorption
    of dietary aluminium.”
    So, according to this, the average dietary intake of aluminum from the diet is 10 mg, of which 2% (twice as much as CHOP says, BTW), or .2 mg is absorbed into the blood. Using the author’s “twenty injections of .5 mg aluminum,” or 10 mg, it seems it would take only 50 days absorb an equivalent amount of aluminum (or 100 days going by the CHOP info). And that even does not take into account other methods of aluminum exposure as mentioned in the article. I may be interpreting this incorrectly, so if you can point out where I went wrong, let me know.
    The author even mentions elsewhere that the body burden from one year of breastmilk would be .1 mg, which is half of his hypothetical amount from the arbitrary twenty injections so again, how this 4000 day number comes into play I can’t figure.
    The only way I can see the “4000” days number is that when he says “it might take,” he is actually giving the maximum number of days if you had a low-aluminum, natural, raw food diet (Per the article, “It follows that natural diets are likely to contain little aluminium. However, a diet containing either cooked or processed foods may contain more.”)
    The evidence still stands that the amount from vaccines is tiny compared to lifetime accumulation from other sources.

  639. Nathan says:

    Kat, Let’s continue this at the bottom, so we aren’t so tight for space. It’s an interesting conversation.
    https://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/29/moms-who-vaccinate-and-those-who-wish-they-had/#comment-3776

  640. Kat says:

    I wonder if someone might answer these for me as well?
    1. If the EPA has found that babies are being born with up to 200 chemicals (some which were banned nearly 30 years ago b/c they are known toxicants) what research is telling us that adding the injection of known or suspected neurotoxins and carcinogens, which then flow through our bloodstream and land in our organs, is safe and harmless?
    2. Have there been a rise in ANY serious health issues in the last few decades?
    3. Can anyone explain why these injections of chemicals are ok, while for instance, the gov’t won’t let our children play on chemically treated playsets?
    Yes Kelly these researchers work so awfully hard to progress their research, and do it often with utmost intelligence for their very specific field and protocols. I’ve sat in rooms with major basic scientists as well as worked with social-cognition researchers who love to talk about fallacies – i get it – and your side is not without them.
    We are falling very short for the many who are experiencing very serious health issues. There is no reciprocal high-five ingratiating group motivation here. These are serious concerns based on:
    -lack of science to date due to the inability to get that far yet in modern science
    -anecdotes-of-many
    -many professionals capable of reviewing scientific literature and observing their cases who question
    -other areas of health and human life that inform this process and knowledge
    -holes in ethical treatment of research protocols
    -what we do know so far of what harms our health
    -what toxicants have not been studied to date or have been found bad or not banned
    -academicians studying toxicants with due concern
    -medical associations calling the accumulative effect of them into question.
    -Etc.
    This IS a very large discussion and attempts at reducing it to less are prohibitive to our duty to protect and serve our children.
    The vital part we may never agree on is that integrative health (biopsychosocial and spiritual perspective) is the direction to move in. The integrative perspective honors the great amounts of time, discussion, and effort it takes to see life from a whole perspective. And, based on the web interview I just watched of Dr. Offit I guess he is intent on discounting the holistic view of health. Honestly, I don’t know if he just can’t be trusted b/c of his conflicts of interest or if he simply doesn’t get it or both. idk beyond the need to express arrogance however, Kelly, because I do see many pro-vaxers as reductionists, all I really care to see is the stopping of the pileup of toxic chemicals. I/ professionals see it echoed in other aspects of life. Take for instance a stressful event one experiences. Some people will handle it well based on various biopsychosocial factors and some will not. Simply explained – Change it to a pileup of stressors and the percentage of people handling it well goes down.

  641. Kat says:

    To clarify my question #1 – I am asking about the possible 200 chemicals not naturally found in human babies. Referring to pollution here….

  642. Kat says:

    Thank you Steve.

  643. Jodie says:

    I believe in vaccinating children, however I also believe that a parent has a right to choose what they want for their own child.
    However, to be so ill minded to backhandedly wish some terrible response of a child to an illness is disgusting. You have clearly in many post represented how feeble minded you are.
    There are some people in this world who are ignorant and petty, whom I’d rather not see a child born from (vaccinated or not). You are clearly one of those people.

  644. Jeff says:

    Because the fictionalized conversation happend right infront of me; unlike the so called rigarous scientific studies.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-crime-research-funds-idUSTRE73C8JJ20110413

  645. Kat says:

    Thank you Nathan. Although I am more in Steve’s camp, I appreciate reading ‘reasonable’ posts as well. It IS refreshing and I do hope you are one who regularly abstains from unecessary distrations in these spaces. I don’t have a disdain for people who choose to vaccinate or promote it, but I don’t respect instances of little regard for the value of civil discourse.
    Steve, I absolutely enjoy your posts as well!
    I’d like to take a little more time, after sleep, to contemplate what you wrote Nathan. I feel at this point I have stated my general position in other threads as well and I am not