Home > Expert Insights, Preventable Diseases, Testimonials > Do You Believe in Vaccines? (Part III: Experience)

Do You Believe in Vaccines? (Part III: Experience)

This article was written by Wendy Sue Swanson, MD, MBE, FAAP and originally posted on her Seattle Mama Doc blog on Dec. 3, 2010 .  As a board-certified, practicing pediatrician, blogger, freelance writer, and mother to two young boys, Dr. Swanson elicited responses from many prominent doctors to the question “Do You Believe in Vaccines?”.  In an effort to help our Shot of Prevention readers to gain further insight into the value of vaccines, as witnessed by those working in the field of medicine, she has graciously granted us permission to reprint the entire three part series.  

Helping families make decisions about their child’s health takes training, expertise, and experience. The training is standardized (medical school, residency, fellowship), and the expertise confirmed by passing board examinations and maintaining yearly CME (continuing med education). But the experience piece is ultimately unique for each physician. With each day in clinical care, patients teach, instruct, and shape how we understand wellness and illness. Through individual experiences with patients, physicians ultimately become who they are in the exam room. In medicine, despite the huge push to standardization everything from centralized phone calls to how much (or little) time we get with patients, individual doctors will fortunately remain unique. As patients, we still get to enjoy our physicians as people helping us through illness and injury.

This week has been intense. Wednesday, I spent the morning as a patient in the care of my incredible doctor. (I’m fine). She’s entirely instructive for me as a patient and as a physician; her bedside manner astounds. I believe she’s just very good at her job, partly because she’s uniquely experienced. I believe her experience being a nurse for many years before becoming a doctor really colors how she provides care–she gets it.

The week has also been intense because of this series. I’ve been thinking about immunizations, reading comments here on the blog, writing, and witnessing my patients’ responses. I’ve received many e-mails. Yesterday, I was at clinic for over 10 hours and like most days, immunizations were a huge part of my day. But I said things I’ve never said before…True synergy between my clinical self (doctor) and my writer self (Mama Doc), this experience is shaping who I am, in and out of the exam room.

Of course, experiences in clinical care (and living on planet earth) shapes how all pediatricians discuss and listen to families when discussing immunizations. Here’s the final segment in my series on asking pediatricians if they “believe” in vaccines. The 20 or so pediatricians who responded, talked about their experiences in representing vaccines. Additional comments are included in part 1 (emotion) and part 2 (evidence).

Experience:

Dr Kronman, a pediatrician and infectious disease fellow:

We don’t see these diseases anymore. I work at a premier tertiary/quarternary care facility for children. I have seen children die of influenza (seasonal, H1N1), pneumococcus, meningococcus, the late sequelae of measles, pertussis; I have seen Hib meningitis, tetanus, severe debilitating outcomes with varicella, cervical cancer caused by HPV, and severe rotavirus. This list goes on. But most people haven’t seen these things anymore. People don’t have to panic about their children in the summer becoming permanently paralyzed from polio, because we don’t see it anymore. And the reason? Vaccines. 

To read the remainder of this post, click here.  You will be redirected to Dr. Swanson’s original piece.  Feel free to include your comments on Seattle Mama Doc, or here on Shot of Prevention. 

Dr. Swanson’s background includes a degree in psychology from Kenyon College, two years teaching middle-school bilingual science and math in Oakland, Calif., with Teach For America, an MD and MBE (Master’s in Bioethics) at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, and a pediatric residency at Seattle Children’s Hospital. Dr. Swanson maintains a busy pediatric practice and writes Seattle Mama Doc, the first pediatrician-authored blog for a major children’s hospital.

  1. December 23, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Yet another Propaganda Prostitute for the Vaccine makers. Shame on you.

    Like

  2. December 23, 2010 at 11:09 am

    Viruses and the GM Insect “Flying Vaccine” Solution

    While it is generally clear, even to the relatively uninformed, that government and corporations have become one and the same, the extent to which this is the case is still largely unknown amongst the general public. Likewise, the extent to which this merger is affecting public health is also not widely known. In recent years (aside from their other horrific projects) government agencies, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), think tanks, and corporations have all banded together to combine two of the biggest scourges on the environment and human health — genetic modification and vaccines — into one entity.

    Read More: http://globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/2010/12/viruses-and-gm-insect-flying-vaccine.html

    Like

  3. December 23, 2010 at 11:11 am

    How To Revive the Flu Scare

    WHO director Margaret Chan admitting last year’s flu pandemic was “not as serious as anticipated”

    http://globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-revive-flu-scare.html

    Like

  4. December 23, 2010 at 11:12 am

    The Secret Behind Ted Turner’s Call For A Global One Child Policy

    Just months after a leaked UN blueprint that revealed climate change alarmists would start pushing “overpopulation” fears in favor of the discredited mantra of global warming as a means of dismantling the middle class, billionaire globalist Ted Turner followed suit during a Cancun luncheon yesterday when he urged the world to adopt China’s brutal one-child policy, and even suggested poor people should be sterilized in return for government handouts.

    http://globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/2010/12/secret-behind-ted-turners-call-for.html

    Like

  5. December 23, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    No one paying attention believes this bull any more. Thank goodness for that.

    Like

  6. KWombles
    December 23, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    Moffie dear (Marsha), it isn’t bull and reasonable people interested in evidence-based practices do indeed believe that vaccines are important tools in disease prevention.

    Attempting to bully individuals into not speaking (as GPA) has above isn’t going to work. When all you have are threats and empty, pointless rebuttals, you might consider that you’re on shaky ground.

    http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10997

    Like

  7. Chris
    December 23, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Plus, Mark of GPA, seems to be exhibiting a bit of a compulsive behavior disorder with his spamming of that particular website (which seems to be full of conspiracy theories, and actually thinks the vapor trail from aircraft engines are evil).

    Like

  8. December 24, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    Wow. We have my old foe, KWombles, hi Kim, speaking out in deception on the side of toxic vaccines as well as one called Chris who doesn’t believe in the danger of chemtrails here, too. Good thing people aren’t duped by you here working to do so as most are awake now a days & those in the dark or on the fence are soon to meet reason & logic once they start paying attention.

    Like

  9. Staci Lynn Kerr
    December 24, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    Marsha,

    There are many that just follow what a lot of doctors say. That is why our country is so ill and full of disease. They are naïve to think that 70 doses of toxic vaccines is effective and safe. They want to believe that the pharmaceutical companies are here for the good of our health. Many are too ignorant to realize it is only about the money. Many people trust the World Health Organization even though they were caught red-handed lacing Tetanus shots with hCG antibodies for population control. Some will listen and do their own research but sadly many won’t and they will have to live with their choice of not doing their homework. Many don’t know about the act that was put into place to protect pharmaceutical companies and doctors from any liability for injurying innocent lives or taking them completely. Thanks for sharing the truth and trying to save as many lives as possible.

    Like

  10. Rebecca Hunter
    December 25, 2010 at 3:01 am

    I would like to leave a comment regarding Marsha McClellend. I would absolultely agree with you Kim, that Marsha DOES bully others. This woman for no reason attacked me on the Matt Lauer page, calling me fake and wanting a reason for my presents on the group. I am friends with Debbie DownUnder, who has recently turned “pro-choice” from being a full blown anti-vaxxer. She will attack anyone associated with Debbie and gather her friends to flag her every move.
    I guess I’m her next victim!?
    Well MARSHA, if that’s so, you have picked the wrong person to mess with. Debbie might let you off lightly, but I sure as HELL won’t!!!
    I believe in vaccines. My family, going back generations have all been vaccinated with NO side affects, disabilities or DEATH! Vaccines save lives. As a nurse, I have seen many deaths that could’ve been prevented by a simple vaccine. Of course, there are risks with anything even driving a car or breathing air… but you can’t ignore the people who have NOT been affected by vaccines and are living normal healthy lives!!!!

    *Her comment to me on the Matt Lauer page*.
    Marsha L McClelland I agree Ruth. Completely! And Rebecca, if you are a real person & not a fake profile, you have fooled me. You don’t seem for real, at all. I wonder why? What brings you here, by the way. I’m sure it’s not for good reason.
    14 hours ago · LikeUnlike

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  11. December 26, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Not that anyone really cares but they can see this Rebecca & several other people who resort to attacking the messenger instead of the message on Matt Lauer’s wall to distract everyone from productive conversation intended to educate people on the dangers of vaccination. Their agenda is obvious & their tactics are undeniable just like the truth behind vaccinations are undeniable when properly investigated.
    http://www.facebook.com/NBCMattLauer

    Like

  12. Chris
    December 26, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Staci Lynn Kerr:

    That is why our country is so ill and full of disease.

    What is your evidence? Is having an average life expectancy rising from 70 to 78.4 in the last fifty years an indication that disease is on the rise? So you think that more people not dying young from measles, tetanus, pertussis and Hib so they can grow old enough to get the diseases of the elderly is a bad thing?

    Like

  13. Chris
    December 26, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Wait, you think chemtrails are real? Do you also think that a rainbow in a lawn sprinkler is from chemicals in the water? How can you expect us to believe in your “educational materials” when you have a basic lack of understanding of science? Have you ever considered taking some basic physics and chemistry classes, just enough to be part of the twenty-first century.

    Like

  14. Rebecca Hunter
    December 26, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    And your agenda Moffie dear, (Marsha) is much the same. You invade important pages like this one by distracting everyone from productive conversation intended to educate people on the importance of vaccinations. GO figure!

    Marsha McClelland | December 23, 2010 at 12:46 pm | Reply No one paying attention believes this bull any more. Thank goodness for that.

    Like

  15. December 27, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Okay copt cat Reb. I see you have to steal my words word for word because you have none of your own. Cute.

    Hey, thanks for admitting the truth in that you have an agenda of ill will. I can’t believe you did that>>>
    “And your agenda Moffie dear, (Marsha) is much the same.”

    Like

  16. Scott
    December 27, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    Wow, I am guess I am in the right place to find out what people think about vaccines. Recently I found out that I am going to be a father (in about 4 months). It just so happens that I need to do a research paper for school so I figured I do one on vaccines.

    There is a massive amount of data & opinions regarding this topic. If anyone has the time and would like to be part of my research paper your time would be greatly appreciated. I am finishing my bachelors in general studies and this is mostly for my knowledge when it comes time to vaccinate my children.

    Again Thank you for you time an opinion.
    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/vaccinations_information

    Like

  17. December 28, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    I took your survey, Chris, but referred to my Grandchildren when answering.

    I would like to present to you all I have in my files I feel most important concerning vaccines from the many long hours of research I have put in.

    But first, since you are soon to be a new Dad, I’d like to share a couple of urgent facts with you in case you don’t already know.

    First, on cord cutting. Study up if you don’t know premature clamping can be dangerous. It robs the baby of appr. 25% of their oxygen & there can be complications. Even death which is rare. I know of a lady who took her midwife to the hospital for delivery to be sure the cord wasn’t cut too soon as she didn’t trust her husband as they have been known to pass out & when it took too long & the impatient nurse said. “Your baby is awfully red”, the Mother told her, that’s because you’ve never seen a healthy baby delivered.

    They also try to give your newborn Hep B & a Vitamin K shots that first day of their lives or maybe the second. You need to opt out but be careful because we are getting many reports of the shots being given anyway. Watch your baby close, somehow.

    Investigate the danger of the Hep B shot & the bull behind it, carefully. Listen to both sides on all these counts & make up you own mind. The vitamin K is important but can be administered safely another way so talk to the babies doctor.

    This is a good site that may help you. Click on home but I sent you a specific link from there so you can see the danger is very serious.

    http://vactruth.com/2010/05/12/baby-dies-after-hep-b-vaccination/

    More to come if this blog allows truth out. I welcome any challenge so we can all learn together.

    Like

  18. Monika
    December 28, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    @ Scott I took your survey. I encourage you to read info and books from Dr. Sherri Tenpenny and Dr. Mayer Eisenstein. Also to read all the package inserts that come with the vaccines. Also look into how and when the diseases we vaccinate against started their decline ( many before the vaccine followed with a spike at the start of vaccinating). I wish you the best of luck in your search for the truth. Also as a parent I recommend you at the reality of all diseases we vaccinate against…the odds of getting the disease, number who contract the disease even when vaccinated, the odds of the disease being sever and odds of it being cured. Also how often the shots will have to given and ect.

    Like

  19. wona
    December 28, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    All i can say is..i wish i would have looked at vaccine truths and ingredients and Dr tenpenny on vaccines,before i allowed my child to be damaged, i shall regret all my life that i was so irresponsibly blind and such a sheep in those days.

    Like

  20. December 28, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Hi Scott,
    As a new parent I strongly urge you to do your own research and make your own choices nothing anyone tells you is proof enough to vaccinate or not to vaccinate. We choose not to because of the research I did on my own and a side effect my first daughter had recieved from the small pox vaccine. She had the vaccine and almost exactly 12 hours later she had a very high fever and broke out from head to toe with Moluscum Contagiosum. A form of small pox. She had to have them burned off at the dermatologist’s office everytime she had a break out! It was very painful for her and awful as a mother to see her go through that. After long days of doing my own research my husband and I chose to no longer vaccinate her and also years later our other 3. None of my children have had any problems they are all very healthy!!! I will never tell anyone they should not vaccinate. But this is a choice that I feel I have the right to decide for my kids! Congratulations on your little bundle 🙂

    Like

  21. Virginia Young
    December 28, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Scott,

    We took your survey as well. My husband is a physician and although I am currently home with my children I have worked in allied health and fitness with an MS in Exercise Physiology. While my husband was in medical school I stayed home with our firstborn and watched other children during the day. I watched as they all reacted to vaccines but I didn’t link the two until my twins reacted severely. Two children injected the same time with the same vaccines reacted with high fevers, hives, vomiting, diarrhea and so much more and yet the doctors did nothing. It was deemed normal. Despite my concerns I found I had little to go on. At that time the internet was dominated by the CDC, FDA, drug industry and so on. I didn’t own a computer and had to do my research on the medical school campus with little time. I simply did not know my rights. Sadly they were vaccinated all the way through kindergarten and now “have their own learning styles” as some like to call it. I was able to get them into PPCD and my daughter still receives special education assistance and always will. She has mastocytosis and should never have been vaccinated and given the NSAIDS over and over again. You can read more on that at http://www.mastocytosis.org if you like. My opinions on vaccines do not necessarily reflect that of the website (which is neutral in that area) , but it does give you a list of mast cell triggers and anyone can look at the information and see that the vaccine ingredients are also triggers.

    We now advocate for families and make ourselves available to parents looking for the other side of the story. More and more parents are thinking twice when they hear a doctor automatically state that a disease is gone because of vaccines and for good reason. There is no solid proof of such, and the statement simply doesn’t make sense. We have working immune systems that have handled disease long before vaccinations were ever introduced and yet doctors give a knee jerk response when vaccines are questioned. They call thousands of immediate reactions to vaccines coincidence and won’t even discuss the issue openly, yet when a disease wanes they readily offer up vaccines as the reason. I wish I had questioned them sooner. My children’s lives are forever changed and so is mine. I suffered a severe reaction to a tetanus booster 13 years ago which has directly affected all of us. I believe my parents might still be with us if it weren’t for our blatant disregard of reactions due to the medical bias in my family. You are a good parent to question them and don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

    Like

  22. December 28, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    PLEASE take note. I’m using a moniker because of privacy concerns. My children were very badly damaged by both vaccines and amalgams, my wife and daughter even more so as they are on permanent disability, and myself to a lesser degree, all over 30-60 years. This is 8 years tough university biology/chemistry/math speaking here, with 3 years intensive graduate research, MS mcl 79. The entire family and our professions have been destroyed and heavily victimized by the medical industry and others. With the same rigorous standards used in my MS Thesis, you can plot an ANOVA from the family vaccine record and calculate essential proof that vaccines cause autism and other life destroying illnesses. Since you’re doing a paper on the subject, please reference this as I’ve described it in detail at http://mercuryxxpoisoned.com/ANOVA.htm
    Let me emphasize that the illnesses in the family were entirely devastating inasmuch as so many were affected, and that the conclusion that vaccines and amalgams together were the cause is NOT an error I could make given my educational background. As for vaccines being effective, that’s in serious doubt after appreciating the magnitude of the lie that they are safe. There is no convincing data, particularly given the extensive fraud permeating the pharma industry, that any real reduction in infectious disease is owed to vaccinations. People are simply expected to believe that what is printed by the government or a medical journal is the truth, but that is not the case. I encourage you to read my own account. The government is lying about the vaccine/autism connection, a fact obvious enough to make scientific studies unnecessary, but if my own back yard does not provide scientific proof, then there is no such thing. Of course, I’m talking about a 1/247,000 chance of being wrong, the approach is similar to that of fingerprinting. Parents, do NOT let your children get vaccinations – or amalgams, and listen to 14 Nobel prize winners who oppose fluoride. You’ve been told a great many lies.

    Like

  23. MicroMama
    December 28, 2010 at 11:49 pm

    Scott,
    As someone who sees vaccine preventable diseases hurt and kill children, I urge you to research only on scientifically sound sites. Look critically at the resurgence in vaccine preventable diseases like measles and whooping cough. Ask your grandparents or great-grandparents if they remember the fear of Polio, Rubella, and Influenza. The CDC, WHO, NIH, etc are good sites to start with, John Hopkins Hospital also has a great site on vaccines and most importantly always consult with your pediatrician. There are plenty of charlatans waiting to take advantage of you and your money by selling a bunch of supplements or homeopathic type “cures”; often their views are not just about vaccines but are full of paranoia about the government, microchips, New World Order and depopulation. Congratulations on becoming a daddy!

    Like

  24. Tommy's Mommy
    December 29, 2010 at 12:21 am

    Scott,
    I am a new mother, of a Wonderful, Beautiful, Baby Boy. I have made the decision TO vaccinate my son. If I were to give advise to anyone, who is looking for information about vaccines… please, please, please, realize that there are many “fear mongering” organizations/individuals, that do their very best to spread misinformation, and false studies. Thanks to the internet, the misinformation is available to the masses. Recognize the difference between, Science and “BS”. Despite what AOA, Dr. Tenpenny, and others might tell you; the pharmaceutical industry makes less than 2% of their overall profits off of vaccines, and doctors are Not paid to “push” them. In reality, Dr. Tenpenny profits far more off of book sales, vitamin sales, and fear mongering, than your pediatrician who is offering a vaccine that is proven effective to keep your child well. The CDC is a very good source for accurate information, WHO, NIH… or you could have a “sit down” with your family doctor (not homeopath)… your doctor is the best person to ask about the health and well being of your family.

    Like

  25. December 29, 2010 at 9:26 am

    @ Tommy’s Mommy

    Can you please tell me where this information comes from when you stated, “the pharmaceutical industry makes less than 2% of their overall profits off of vaccines, and doctors are Not paid to “push” them.”?

    I’d like to know for myself so that I can better educate others.

    Moreover, what is being done to test before and after vaccination? For example, we know that many adverse reactions are neurological in nature. What is tested before and after vaccination to ensure vaccines are as “harmless” as we are lead to believe?

    Finally, where in the medical literature does it state that seroconversion equals immunity/protection from infectious disease?

    Like

  26. December 29, 2010 at 10:02 am

    As a father of a vaccine injured child, I’d also like to add, that you should ask yourself the question, Scott, “Why do pediatricians only give you vaccine information sheets instead of the vaccine inserts?”

    Below is the vaccine insert for the MMR.
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

    Please note where it states …”Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, Impairment of Fertility M-M-R II has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility.”

    Additionally, I would ask your pediatrician how they know the conditions listed under CONTRAINDICATIONS do not exist in your child BEFORE they get vaccinated.

    By example, hypogammaglobulinemia (which my son has) is a contraindication of the MMR vaccine and Polio vaccine (Hint: look at the vaccine inserts).

    http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/print/sec16/ch184/ch184k.html

    Ask the pediatrician how do you test for such things… Scott, there is so much information available — you just need to look. Here is one small example though, pertaining to hypogammaglobulinemia and polio.

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/30061657
    “Nearly 10% of vaccine-associated cases are in hypogammaglobulinemics, who are estimated to be 10,000 times more susceptible to vaccine-induced polio- myelitis than normal persons.”

    Please do a good amount of research prior to vaccinating. Ask a LOT of questions. If the pediatrician cannot answer your questions, try another one or have them try to find someone that can help you answer your questions. If they pressure or fear you into vaccinating your child, RUN…

    “Pharmaceutical products may contain, in addition to the active or therapeutic agent(s), a variety of other ingredients, termed inactive or inert, which are categorized as excipients or additives (flavorings, sweeteners, preservatives, stabilizers, diluents, lubricants, etc.). The words inert or inactive may be misnomers for some excipients because some have been shown to cause adverse effects. Neonates and young children are at risk for such effects because they may not be able to metabolize or eliminate an ingredient in a pharmaceutical product in the same manner as an adult.”

    Encyclopedia of Pharmaceutical Technology Vol. 11
    Authors James Swarbrick & James C. Boylan
    1995 New York: Marcel Dekker, Inc.
    pp. 344

    Like

  27. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Scott,

    I took your survey and wanted to applaud you for doing your own research. My husband is an MD and I have a BA in HS, major in radiology. Our son was vaccine injured at 15 months and regressed into the hell of autism. If you do vaccinate Dr. Sears offers an alternative schedule that appears to be safer.

    http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/labels/Alternative%20Vaccine%20Schedule.asp

    Read all the manufactures product inserts. They are not given to you by the pediatricians but you can get the info online straight from the manufacturer.

    continued

    Like

  28. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    Read the research:

    • Review of 58 research articles relevant to the question of a link between autism and one or more toxic heavy metals

    • Fifteen were offered as evidence against a link
    
• In contrast 43(74%) papers were supporting a link
    
• Re-analysis forced retraction

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628440
    —————————
    “Usually simultaneous vaccination is incompletely studied at time of licensure.”

    CDC ISO Scientific Agenda for NVAC Vaccine Safety Working Group
April 4, 2008, page 33

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/00_pdf/draft_agenda_recommendations_080404.pdf
    ———————————
    The Cochrane Review, and…Jefferson T et al.
Unintended events following immunization with MMR: a systematic review.
Vaccine 2003:21:3954-3960

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&term=VaccineJour+AND+21Volume+AND+3954page

    • Safety studies of MMR “largely unsatisfactory”
    
• Not up to the standard of those for single vaccines

    • “The safety record of MMR is possibly best attested by its almost universal use”
    —————————————
    Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.

    “WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

    Like

  29. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    Define the question:

    When you inject known neuro toxins like preservatives thimerosal and adjuvants like aluminum early in life than inject these live viruses, are you creating a toxic overload, a synergistic impact that then leads to a biohazard the size and significance which is entirely unknown?

    Like

  30. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    How do we resolve the issue of vaccines and causation?

    • Prospective comprehensive safety studies in infant non-human primates
• Long term health outcomes between the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated
• Re-Challenge outcomes between differences between 1 dose of MMR then 2 MMR
• Migration Studies – Somalis’ and Minnesota

    Like

  31. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    When looking at compounded environmental risks there are other things that we need to take into account.

    • Environmental Mercury

    • Methyl Mercury from fish consumption

    • Inorganic Mercury from coal burning power plants (Ray Palmer’s research)
    
• Pesticides, Organic Phosphorus Insecticides

    Like

  32. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Causation is not simple there are many culprits. To allow the issue to be oversimplified allows the point to be lost and people then can skirt around the true issues.
    ————————————
    Greatest Impediments to progress

    1. Commercial influence

    2. Fear of Accountability
    
3. Ideological Denial

    4. Elaborate, Deceitful and failing public relations campaign

    Like

  33. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Read Simpsonwood where the signal was discovered and the data became “embargoed” from the public.

    The Signal

    Page 40 – 41, Paragraph 4

    Dr. Tom Verstraeten
Lead Author of study & EIS Office at National Immunization Program

    “From those risk analysis, excluding those dichotomized for EPA, we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and the outcome for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay which has its own specific ICD 9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

    continued

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  34. Heather White
    December 29, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Page 113, Paragraph 4

    Dr. Roger Bernier
Associate Director for Science in the National Immunization Program

    “While I am making that point, let me just reemphasize if I could the importance of trying to protect the information that we have been talking about. As many of you know, we are invited here. We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have done a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So to basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.”

    The CDC never released this information.

    This is Verstraeten’s original study where he states all raw data is lost. The Simpsonwood meeting minutes that were captured by the FOIA where the CDC, WHO, AAP and leading MD’s across the US with pharma reps discuss the unequivocal relationship between vaccines and a myriad of neurological diseased and how to cover it up. I have the minutes again enclosed

    http://skeptico.blogs.com/.m/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf?locale=en_US

    Dr. Verstraeten left to take a job with Glaxo Smith-Kline [a vaccine manufacturer] after the study was written and before it was redesigned and published.

    The US Congress later cited this as an ethical violation.

    Again I applaud you for taking the time to research.
    Heather

    Like

  35. Debbie DownUnder
    December 29, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    Hello Scott.. Its a tough choice whether or not to vaccinate because not vaccinating can lead to a life-time of fear/worry for ‘you’, and possibly putting your child at risk of vaccine preventable diseases.
    In saying this, if i had my time over, i would most probably ‘not’ vaccinate as i believe my child was vaccine injured by early vaccines causing brain swelling and later on when the MMR was given, my son developed Autism symptoms within 24 hours of the shot and later diagnosed with the condition. If you were to choose to vaccinate your baby, i would suggest breaking up the vaccines. For example: M one month, M the next, R the following. In my opinion, there are too many vaccines given out too soon. Why do we need a set date to vaccinate a child, and why do we need all vaccines given at once. Why does a child ‘need’ over 50 shots before they turn 5 years of age? Why is Autism on the rise? Why aren’t we told the ingredients of vaccines? and most important, why should YOU jump off the bridge if someone else does. Listen to others, sure… but in the end go with YOUR gut feeling and never listen to anyone who uses the word “BULL”.
    Goodluck Scott all the best.
    Deb

    Like

  36. Chris
    December 30, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    What pediatric vaccines are only available with thimerosal? Almost half of the influenza vaccines are thimerosal free.

    Like

  37. Chris
    December 30, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    Scott, you do realize that your survey is not scientific and the data would be considered “self-selected”, right? If you want to get better information read these articles. Also remember that the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

    Like

  38. Chris
    December 30, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Apparently Tenpenny is disappointed that she did not rate enough to be mentioned in Offit’s latest book.

    Like

  39. December 31, 2010 at 12:45 am

    @ Chris

    He can read the vaccine inserts for himself and make his own decision by asking very pointed questions.

    Can you please tell me how the authors at Science Based Medicine are transparent or not “self-selected” in their own data?

    Maybe you can explain why parents are not told the entire truth? Or, perhaps you could quantify and qualify scientifically how hypogammaglobulinemia is tested before vaccination? It’s a contraindication to many vaccines.

    Poliomyelitis in Hypogammaglobulinemics
    Author(s): H. V. Wyatt
    Source: The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Vol. 128, No. 6 (Dec., 1973), pp. 802-806
    Published by: The University of Chicago Press
    Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/30061657

    “The incidence of natural poliomyelitis in hypogammaglobulinemics has been estimated to be similar to that in nonimmune normal children of the same age group exposed to virulent poliovirus. Poliomyelitis that afflicts hypogammaglobulinemics after the feeding of oral polio vaccine is characterized by an incubation period of longer than 28 days, a high rate of mortality after a long chronic illness, abnormal lesions in the central nervous system, and no reversion of the vaccine virus to virulence. Nearly 10% of vaccine-associated cases are in hypogammaglobulinemics, who are estimated to be 10,000 times more susceptible to vaccine-induced polio- myelitis than normal persons. “

    Like

  40. Nathan
    December 31, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Jeffry, the authors at SBM do not make data. Chris is helping Scott to understand that self-selected survey data is a particularly bad form of data.

    Regarding hypogammaglobulinemia, if there was an effective method to screen for it in every child, it would no doubt be done. However, hypogammaglobulinemia is very rare, and having a vaccine reaction is rarer still. Across the population, this is a much smaller risk than the risk of the disease. You cited a study regarding oral polio, which is not given in most first world countries. Injected polio virus cannot cause vaccine induced poliomyelitis, even in the immunocompromised.

    Like

  41. December 31, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    @ Nathan

    Is it a bad form of data? Or is it helping him make a better decision?

    I think it is wonderful he as at least asking questions. There is NO perfect study nor perfect survey. Someone will find fault with it, scientific or not.

    Nathan, you elucidated on a very salient point. NO testing is done before nor after vaccinations, which is exactly my point. Tests DO exist for hypogammaglobulinemia through blood draws, as far as I am aware of. This is specifically mentioned on the vaccine inserts as a contraindication. How does a pediatrician know if the child has it?

    More to the point, if scientific measurements are not completed before and after vaccinations in a case controlled manner, we can say all vaccines are safe and low risk.

    By example, if death is not a measured outcome of surgery, we can say all surgeries are safe. We know that is not the case, fortunately.

    Like

  42. Nathan
    January 2, 2011 at 1:38 am

    Yes, every kind of study has some flaws. But self-selectedsurvey data is a particularly bad form of data. I don’t see why it is a bad idea to point that out.

    Testing exists for hypogammaglobulinemia, yes. But a screening test that is to be administered to every child needs to be adequately sensitive and specific, and cost-effective. If that kind of screening test was available, it would be done for every child, regardless of the risk of vaccination, just as children are screened for things like PKU at birth.

    The pediatrician may not know if the child has hypogammaglobulinemia at the time of vaccination with a live virus. It would be wonderful if they did, but as I said, screening for that is not available at this time. However, in the absence of knowledge of the childs gamma globulin quantity, the risks of vaccination are minimal compared to the benefit, as hypgammaglobulinemia is rare, and rarer still is a hypogammaglobulinemic who has a severe vaccine reaction.

    Think about peanuts. The risk of an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts, possibly leading to death, exists for every child. Peanut allergy testing exists. Should every child be tested for peanut allergy before being allowed to consume any peanut products?

    Like

  43. January 2, 2011 at 5:26 am

    Nathan,

    Harm is not measured. Prescreening is not done. Vaccinating is Russian Roulette.

    Your comparison to peanuts is poor. First, eating peanuts is not “mandatory” for entering school or not considered the price of admission for participating in society. Second, eating peanuts is NOT a medical procedure. Third, it’s not a contraindication of vaccination.

    Like

  44. January 2, 2011 at 5:24 pm

    I saw that video, GPA. It’s all over the net. It’s all on tape that this man was only walking & talking with Dr. Oz so it will be interesting to see how this turns out. Judges know the world’s watching so they better watch their steps & their actions. It will be hard for the past acts in the kangaroo courts to take place as they have been so free to do in the past with so many paying attention, now.

    Like

  45. Nathan
    January 4, 2011 at 12:19 am

    Jeffry, you said,
    “Harm is not measured.”
    Simply not true. Every vaccine is tested extensively for potential harm.
    “Prescreening is not done.”
    Right. Prescreening for hypogammaglobulinemia via laboratory workup is not feasible, but that does not change the fact that on average, the risk of the vaccine is extremely low.

    The objections to the analogy you mention are differences, but they do not invalidate the analogy. It does not matter if peanuts are required for school entry (vaccinations are not either, BTW, as there are exemptions) or if they are a medical procedure or not. They are still a potential life threatening exposure that there exists screening for. That is the crux of the analogy. Should doctors recommend peanut allergy testing for all children prior to peanut exposure?

    “Vaccinating is Russian Roulette.”
    If you want to use that analogy, then NOT vaccinating is Russian Roulette with many times more bullets in the chambers.

    Like

  46. January 4, 2011 at 2:49 am

    Nathan,

    Please show me the US Pharmacopoeia standards for neurovirulence testing on vaccines.

    Right. NO prescreening is done for the contraindications listed on the vaccine inserts. It’s Russian Roulette.

    Like

  47. January 4, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    Hi Scott. There were a couple of posts from two members of a group I belong to where we’re discussing how their important replies to you were deleted or never made it. One was posted but removed, (it had posted temporarily), for whatever reason, we can’t figure, & the other by the wife of a medical doctor was posted twice & never made it. It was quite long & informative & she even said she’d hoped she didn’t overwhelm you. I told her with your doing that research paper that I was sure she hadn’t & all the information would be quite welcome.

    I had planned & still do, to submit to you what I have but I worry it, too, will not be posted due to the length or possibly content, as was Heather’s. She even waited a day or so & broke it into sections & it still didn’t make the cut.

    The first part was;

    Scott,

    I took your survey and wanted to applaud you for doing your own research. My husband is an MD and I have a BA in HS, major in radiology. Our son was vaccine injured at 15 months and regressed into the hell of autism. If you do vaccinate Dr. Sears offers an alternative schedule that appears to be safer.

    http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/labels/Alternative%20Vaccine%20Schedule.asp

    Read all the manufactures product inserts. They are not given to you by the pediatricians but you can get the info online straight from the manufacturer.

    Read the research:

    • Review of 58 research articles relevant to the question of a link between autism and one or more toxic heavy metals
    • Fifteen were offered as evidence against a link
    • In contrast 43(74%) papers were supporting a link
    • Re-analysis forced retraction

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628440

    Like

  48. Sara
    January 4, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    If you want to use that analogy, then NOT vaccinating is Russian Roulette with many times more bullets in the chambers.

    Really? That’s interesting, because I don’t see any kids dropping dead from so-called “vaccine preventable” diseases where I live. But I DO see a multitude of kids suffering from chronic illnesses and neurological disorders. 3 kids with autism on my own street. hmmm..

    Like

  49. January 4, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    That’s right Sara. I agree.

    And, I’m willing to bet if these autistic children were medically tested (and believe me there are tests out there) they would show these children are CLINICALLY ILL … they are MEDICALLY SICK. Autism is NOT a social disorder.

    So, if Nathan is in the medical field I suggest he get the testicular fortitude to put his preconceived notion of what he thinks autism ‘might’ be and do some testing to get to the root cause. These children are NOT suffering from a psychotropic drug deficiency.

    Like

  50. Nathan
    January 4, 2011 at 10:04 pm

    Where do you live, Sara? If you live in the United States, then it is unlikely that you would see children dropping dead from vaccine-preventable diseases. The overwhelming number of children are vaccinated against those diseases. But there’s quite a number of children dying from vaccine preventable diseases in many countries. And since autism is not caused by vaccines, that is not very good argument that the risks of vaccination outweight the benefits.

    Like

  51. Nathan
    January 4, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    Marsha, I think you are mistaken. Heather’s post, which is what you just pasted, is clearly visible at December 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm. As are a bunch of other segments of her post. They have been there for some time.

    Like

  52. Sara
    January 4, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    The overwhelming number of children are vaccinated against those diseases.
    Yes… but what does that prove? Where are your studies showing that vaccines are attributable to the reduction of disease? Furthermore, where are your studies showing that “herd immunity” applies to the vaccine-induced variety?

    And since autism is not caused by vaccines, that is not very good argument that the risks of vaccination outweight the benefits.
    No one knows whether vaccines are a cause of some cases of autism or not. Not even you – unless you can provide me with studies confirming long-term safety, specifically tracking the incidence of chronic disease and neurological outcomes.

    Like

  53. Nathan
    January 4, 2011 at 10:21 pm

    Jeffrey, I do not believe that autistic children are suffering from a drug deficiency. The evidence does not support that. Neither does the evidence support that autism is mercury poisoning or any other vaccine related injury. You seem to imply that there are not researchers out there right now investigating the causes of autism. That is not the case. Not only do biologic studies concerning autism come out every month, but large scale environmental exposure studies, like the National Children’s Study are underway.

    I’m afraid I’m not versed enough in neruoimmunology to point to the evidence you want. I am familiar with the outcome studies regarding autism and vaccines, and I haven’t found anything reputable suggesting a link. Rather, the research is pretty clear that autism is not caused by vaccines.

    “Right. NO prescreening is done for the contraindications listed on the vaccine inserts. It’s Russian Roulette”

    You keep perseverating on that analogy. A more precise analogy would be that vaccination is Russian Roulette with a revolver with a million chambers, one of which has a bullet, several more have nonlethal ammo, about 10% are empty, and the remaining 900,000 chambers give you immunity to potentially deadly disease.

    Like

  54. Nathan
    January 5, 2011 at 1:59 am

    Sara, you said,

    “Yes… but what does that prove? Where are your studies showing that vaccines are attributable to the reduction of disease? Furthermore, where are your studies showing that “herd immunity” applies to the vaccine-induced variety?”

    They are on pubmed. Studies like “Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children” by Glanz et al (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19482753).

    I could not list them all on this page. But the best indication of the efficacy of vaccine is the sudden and sustained fall of the incidence of the disease soon after the introduction of the vaccine. It requires a fair amount of suspension of disbelief to argue that in all those cases, it was something other than the vaccine.

    I anticipate that you’ll counter with some graphs. Though before you do, make sure that you are looking at disease incidence, not mortality (there is no question that childhood mortality from almost all causes was greatly on the decline in the early 20th century), and that you’ve checked the source the data came from. Also consider what you think caused the sharp decrease or virtual elimination of diseases like varicella, invasive HiB, and pneumococcus, for which vaccination began within the last couple of decades or so.

    “No one knows whether vaccines are a cause of some cases of autism or not. Not even you – unless you can provide me with studies confirming long-term safety, specifically tracking the incidence of chronic disease and neurological outcomes.”

    Well, I’m familiar with studies that show MMR does not cause autism, thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism, delaying or spacing out vaccination does not change long-term developmental outcomes, autism in the adult population is approximately that of the childhood population, that autism appears to begin in the first trimester in utero, and that the majority, if not all of the rise of autism diagnosis in the last three decades is attributable to broadening of the diagnostic criteria, better surveillance, diagnostic substitution, inclusion of less severe cases, and to some extent, increasing paternal age.

    All of that put together makes a very weak case for the vaccine/autism hypothesis. But you are right, that there always exists the small possibility that another environmental factor is contributory. However, the chance appears remote, and the contribution is likely to be small.

    But to imply that vaccines caused the children on your street to be autistic and therefore vaccines are riskier than they are beneficial just isn’t consistent with the evidence.

    Like

  55. January 5, 2011 at 2:47 am

    Vaccines cause autism and much more, a fact from whatever point you view it, including scientific, and even if you’re blind. The “association” of vaccines with reduction in disease is also, to quote those who try to cover up the dangers of vaccines, not cause and effect (the “post ergo propter hoc” fallacy). Nathan, or anyone, unless you’ve paid for at least 8 years university math/science, a graduate degree, and 3 or more years graduate research, then you haven’t earned the right to enter such a conversation or appear to be so learned. You have to really know what you’re talking about, and you also have to have extensive first hand experience with autism.

    Like

  56. Sara
    January 5, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    It requires a fair amount of suspension of disbelief to argue that in all those cases, it was something other than the vaccine.
    Cusanus rebutted this perfectly. The association does not equal cause and effect.
    They are on pubmed. Studies like “Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children” by Glanz et al
    We know that artificial immunity is short lived, with anti-bodies disappearing within 2-10 years, waning at different times in different people. Not to mention those who do not acquire antibodies at all from vaccines. What this means is that at least 50% or more of the population is unprotected at any given time, and always has been. Yet, no resurgent epidemics have plagued us. It has never been proven that artificial immunity, which bypasses the most crucial mechanism of the immune system, provides protection against contracting a disease. The entire vaccine program is based on nonsense and fairy tale.
    Well, I’m familiar with studies that show MMR does not cause autism, thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism, delaying or spacing out vaccination does not change long-term developmental outcomes, autism in the adult population is approximately that of the childhood population, that autism appears to begin in the first trimester in utero, and that the majority, if not all of the rise of autism diagnosis in the last three decades is attributable to broadening of the diagnostic criteria, better surveillance, diagnostic substitution, inclusion of less severe cases, and to some extent, increasing paternal age.
    None of that has been proven. The studies you are referring to are weak, consisting of soft epidemiological studies comparing apples to oranges and fraught with error and manipulation – along with ridiculous data collection via survey. I don’t even think that most government officials or medical professionals are holding on to the “better diagnosis” hypothesis anymore either. It certainly can account for a small percentage of higher functioning cases, but nothing overwhelmingly significant to autism as a whole.

    Like

  57. January 5, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Nathan,

    “But the best indication of the efficacy of vaccine is the sudden and sustained fall of the incidence of the disease soon after the introduction of the vaccine. It requires a fair amount of suspension of disbelief to argue that in all those cases, it was something other than the vaccine.”

    Where did you learn to believe this?

    Like

  58. January 5, 2011 at 11:35 pm

    Thank you, Nathan. I do see them now but for some odd reason they weren’t until I just now looked.

    Like

  59. Snoozie
    January 6, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    Sara–
    If you live in a geographical area with a high incidence of autism, why are you looking at vaccines as the trigger rather than local environmental factors? I live in a neighborhood where the children are 99% blonde. Does that mean blonde hair causes autism?

    Like

  60. Gary
    January 6, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    “Vaccines cause autism and much more, a fact from whatever point you view it, including scientific, and even if you’re blind. The “association” of vaccines with reduction in disease is also, to quote those who try to cover up the dangers of vaccines, not cause and effect (the “post ergo propter hoc” fallacy).”

    You cannot claim at the same time and in the same sense that coincidences of autism and vaccines proves the vaccines cause autism while denying that coincidences of vaccines and disease reduction is irrelevant. I don’t need a degree in anything to suggest that your position is contradictory with itself.

    There are no clinical or epidemiological studies which show a statistically significant association between autism and vaccination. This fact is, though, not proof that autism is not caused by vaccination. This is due to
    1) It is impossible to prove a negative. If we could prove that vaccinations did not cause the autism in 1,000,000 specific autistic children, there would still be a question about child 1,000,001.
    2) Proving associations in large epidemiological studies requires accounting for as many confounding factors as possible. Sometimes this simply cannot be done.
    3) Some of the sorts of tests that would be needed to “prove” that vaccines cannot cause autism are not possible. We could, for instance, give 1,000,000 kids either vaccines or salin solution and then watch them develop over the next several decades. But you have to take into account that half of those kids are now exposed to diseases which can be deadly and that some of them will die as a result of being in this sort of study. We just don’t experiment on humans in this way.
    4) probably a couple of reasons I have not put here. 😉

    Having said that, a great deal of research has been done in the last 20 years on the causes of autism. They are pretty unanimous in NOT finding a significant effect from vaccines. When considering this, it might help to think about the numbers. The most alarming numbers suggest that ASD can be diagnosed in 10% of the population. Since most of the population is vaccinated, it would stand to reason that any effect vaccines have on the rate of ASD would be in the single digit percentile range. That is, if the increase in vaccines really has anything to do with the increase in ASD rates, then vaccines cannot be limited to a 1 in a million risk of causing ASD.

    If you go back through all of the studies linked to here, you may find that even though many of them suggest that the vaccine autism or autism environmental link cannot be eliminated (remember you can’t prove a negative), they also do not show any evidence for an effect as large as would be necessary to support the current theory that increased vaccinations is contributing to a rise in autism. The claim is simply not credible.

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  61. January 6, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Gary,

    Interesting angle.

    I’ve been under the impression that the “scientific mind” goes by levels of evidence – using the correct weights and measures, if you will. I’m wondering what scientists use as a serological and neurological baseline before vaccination?

    Moreover, how would you suggest children with ASD are obtaining HHV-6, CMV, MV, EBV, etc. ?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17265454
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20345322
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18627418
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18754956
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20004860
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11339860
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20004860

    Like

  62. Gary
    January 6, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    Debbie Down Under “Why do we need a set date to vaccinate a child, and why do we need all vaccines given at once. Why does a child ‘need’ over 50 shots before they turn 5 years of age? Why is Autism on the rise? Why aren’t we told the ingredients of vaccines? ”

    I’d like to try to answer some of these questions.
    “Why do we need a set date to vaccinate a child, and why do we need all vaccines given at once.”
    The vaccine schedule was developed by considering many different things. The CDC is pretty up front about what things they consider and the science they use to back up those considerations. But what it basically comes down to are efficacy, safety, and effectiveness. First there has to be some evidence that combining the vaccines does not affect the efficacy. This means that the new formulation does not in some way inhibit the desired immune response to any of the antigens. Safety has to do with the possibility that adverse reactions could increase by changing the vaccine formula. Consider for a moment that the amount of chemicals other than the antigens may be lower in a combined vaccine. The amount of a preservative like Thimerasol (I’ts not used in children’s vaccines in the US, I know, I’m just using it as an example) is based on the volume of the dose, not on the number of antigens in the vaccine. So, combining vaccines into a single dose MIGHT make the things your could be worried about less of an issue.

    Finally, the issue of effectiveness. This has more to do with the consistency of vaccine administration and the overall vaccine coverage than it does with the chemicals involved. What I mean, is that if you have 4 vaccines all of which need 2 doses which should be given at the same time in order maximize their protective properties, then combining them into 1 shot reduces the chance that the discomfort of the first 4 shots will cause some people to delay or avoid altogether the second dose.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    “Why does a child ‘need’ over 50 shots before they turn 5 years of age?”
    I’d like to start this answer by agreeing with its underlying premise. Not every child will need those shots by that age. What I mean is that not every child will be exposed to measles, polio, varicella, or any of the other diseases we vaccinate for. If you know for certain that a given child will never encounter any of those viruses, then that child doesn’t need that vaccine.

    The problem, Debbie, is that we cannot say which child will need them and which one won’t. Worse than that, a reduction in the vaccine coverage for a given population increases the chance of any disease for the whole population. One of the reasons that a case of polio or measles is such a rare event in the US is that the vast majority of us has been vaccinated for quite a long time. As that vaccination rate starts to drop, however, the rate of the disease increase, and thus the chance that any particular individual will be exposed increases.

    There is a very neat little program which illustrates the principle. http://www.shanekillian.org/apps/herd.html It comes with a short video that makes the ideas clear.

    “Why is Autism on the rise? Why aren’t we told the ingredients of vaccines?”
    I’m afraid I simply don’t know why autism is on the rise. I tend to believe the studies showing that most of the rise is due to changing diagnostic criteria (the rules as well as the techniques). But frankly, I simply don’t know.

    I am a bit confused by the second question here. “we” are told pretty clearly about vaccine ingredients. The CDC lists ingredients for every vaccine it licenses. In addition, it lists all sorts of substances which are not ingredients but which could be present in vaccines in trace amounts.

    I suspect that you mean one of a couple things. Either you are saying that doctors do not disclose ingredients when administering the vaccines or you are saying that there are things in the vaccines which the manufacturer and the CDC do not tell us about. If the first, then allow me to point out that this is the case for virtually every doctor administered drug. The last time you had surgery (ar anyone you know) do you remember the anesthesiologist going over the ingredients of the chemicals he was injecting? How about the dentist? I’m not trying to be facetious, just trying to point out that we inject or ingest lots of things without having the ingredients explained to us on the spot. I know that lately every thing we buy has an ingredients list. And I would not object in the least if doctors were required to compile such a list for each and every drug they prescribe (although it might increase some costs). But the point I am trying to make is there is no secret about the ingredients in vaccines. The government and the manufacturers are very up front about it.

    If, however, you are suggesting that there is something in the vaccines which are not included on the ingredients list, the I would have to ask that you be more specific. I would also ask that you look very carefully at the word “ingredient”. There is a big difference between the things included in vaccines and the substances used to produce those vaccines. They are not the same thing.

    I hope any of this was helpful.

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  63. Nathan
    January 6, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    That’s a rather incredible statement. How many antivaccinations posting on this blog meet those requirements? How many leaders of the antivaccine movement?

    And I could not disagree with you more. Saying that only families who have been affected by autism can evaluate the science behind an autism/vaccine is like saying that the only people who can serve on juries should be friends of the accuser. It is important to have the perspective of both people who have been affected by autism in this issue, but also those that haven’t, as they can provide an assessment without a personal attachment to the result.

    I agree that that “post hoc ergo propter hoc” is a fallacy. However, in this case, we are talking about numerous diseases that fall soon after the introduction of the vaccine, a copious amount of supporting science to demonstrate the efficacy of vaccines, and no other strong reasons for the incidence of the diseases to drop so rapidly in that particular time frame.

    Is it possible that the diseases dropped off by chance after vaccinations started? Sure, and its also possible that I could flip a coin a hundred times and always get heads. But not likely.

    Like

  64. Sara
    January 6, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    Nonsensical comparison.

    Like

  65. Nathan
    January 7, 2011 at 1:24 am

    Sara,

    Cusanus rebutted this perfectly. The association does not equal cause and effect.

    No, but as I explained to him, the number of times that this has happened makes it extremely unlikely that they are not causative.

    It has never been proven that artificial immunity, which bypasses the most crucial mechanism of the immune system, provides protection against contracting a disease. The entire vaccine program is based on nonsense and fairy tale.

    I agree that immunity from the wild disease is usually longer lasting than immunity from vaccines. But vaccines are still highly effective, and it does not mean that herd immunity is not acheived from most vaccines. Immunizing against the vectors of disease goes a long way towards achieving herd immunity, even given the limitations of the vaccine.

    You use the word “proof.” While science usually cannot prove something, studies can provide evidence that something is extremely likely. In this case, all the evidence points to the conculsion that vaccines dramatically reduce an individuals chance of getting the disease. You might be interested in this page of the ANTIvaccine site “Inside Vaccines.” I do not agree with most of what they post, but in this case they correctly dispel the antivaccine myth that vaccines did not cause declines in disease and cannot cause herd immunity. http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/02/11/vaccine-myths-round-two/

    None of that has been proven. The studies you are referring to are weak, consisting of soft epidemiological studies comparing apples to oranges and fraught with error and manipulation – along with ridiculous data collection via survey. I don’t even think that most government officials or medical professionals are holding on to the “better diagnosis” hypothesis anymore either. It certainly can account for a small percentage of higher functioning cases, but nothing overwhelmingly significant to autism as a whole.

    I disagree, in fact most of what I read in mainstream medical journals reflects just that: autism diagnosis is rising primarily from those factors, although an environmental factor may be contributory and is worth investigation. Even the UC Davis MIND study, which is often cited by antivaccine advocates, accounted for 2/3 of the increase in California with greater inclusion and broadening of criteria, and it did not even take into consideration the diagnostic substitution and increased surveillance, to say nothing of increased parental age. Really you need to understand how the changes in the DSM blew wide the diagnosis of ASD in the 80’s and 90’s. There is no way that it led to only a “small percentage of higher functioning cases” in the world of autism diagnosis.

    Its very easy to toss all the existing research off as “soft” when it does not agree with the conclusion that you would like. I do agree that every study has its flaws. But when one has a large body of evidence, which is contributed to by both government and independent entities from all over the world, all pointing to the same conclusion (vaccines do not cause autism), and one concludes that the opposite is true, then that is denialism.

    Unfortunately, when we focus all of our money and resources trying to dispel myths about vaccines and autism that had no basis in evidence in the first place, we do a great disservice to families affected by autism.

    Like

  66. Nathan
    January 7, 2011 at 1:26 am

    No particular place. I’ve looked at the incidence of disease before and after the induction of vaccination and found it to be quite clear. I would like to see evidence that you have of the contrary. As I mentioned above, make sure we are talking about incidence, not mortality, and make sure we have original sources to examine together.

    Like

  67. Sara
    January 7, 2011 at 3:17 am

    Immunizing against the vectors of disease goes a long way towards achieving herd immunity, even given the limitations of the vaccine.

    I can’t stand the “children are the vectors of disease” argument. Where, pray tell, has this EVER been proven? A young or even immature immune system is no more a vector than one embodied by a sick or compromised adult – and certainly no more susceptible than that of an elderly person.

    Like

  68. January 7, 2011 at 7:57 am

    Nathan,

    You keep ignoring my question.

    “But the best indication of the efficacy of vaccine is the sudden and sustained fall of the incidence of the disease soon after the introduction of the vaccine. It requires a fair amount of suspension of disbelief to argue that in all those cases, it was something other than the vaccine.”

    Where did you learn to believe this?

    Like

  69. January 7, 2011 at 8:02 am

    Nathan,

    One suggestion.

    Look up the connection to polio and milk. Even Albert Sabin wrote about it. You might want to look into a gentleman by the name of Lloyd Aycock too.

    However, I would ask you NOT to investigate any further if you are dead set in your belief that vaccines saved us from polio. Moreover, I would highly suggest (since you spoke about money and research being an issue) to research which foundations funded the polio vaccine.

    I also recommend two books. War Against the Weak by Edwin Black (over 100 pages of references) and The Molecular Vision of Life by Lily Kay. Both are highly acclaimed. However, again, I recommend you do not read these books if you are rather comfortable with what you have come to understand is the “history” of disease.

    Like

  70. Nathan
    January 7, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    Jeffry,

    I answered your question quite directly above. I’ve seen incidence reports on numerous diseases from various countries before and after vaccination is started. Anyone who has any intellectual honesty would be hard pressed to conclude that something other than vaccines caused such a precipitous drop in incidence. I asked you for evidence to the contrary and you provided none.

    You can spare me the condescending don’t-read-this-if you-want-your-worldview-to-be-challenged nonesense. My mind is perfectly open to facts and evidence, which you have yet to provide. It is not as open to conspiracy delusions that have no basis in reality. I can suspend my disbelief in such things for a Dan Brown novel, but not here, where the health of children is at stake.

    I looked up polio and milk. The first article was whale.to. Not a good sign. The theory is that formaldehyde was used as a preservative in milk and caused polio. This is not supported by any evidence (I could find no original sources that support this), and virtually everyone is exposed to formaldehyde on a regular basis, such as our drive to work. Heck, our bodies make their own formaldehyde as a byproduct of metabolism. Yet we no longer come down with polio.

    I also looked into your books. The first has a website that says in large print, “How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of “human genetics.” The other concerns a Rockefeller consipracy.

    If these fit your worldview, then go with grace. I will stick with evidence that is grounded in reality. Either way I think we’ve gotten to the point where this conversation has stopped being fruitful.

    Like

  71. Nathan
    January 7, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    Sara,

    I think you may not understand what I mean by ‘vector’. A vector in the sense we are talking about is a group that is most likely to transmit a disease to each other and to other groups. What makes a group a vector is more than just how “mature” their immune system is. There are physiologic factors that change with age to make an age group more susceptible to certain diseases, but probably more important is the kinds of behaviors that the age group engages in.

    For an obvious example, think of STDs. An STD is going to be most rapidly spread by a nonmonogamous sexually active person, yes? And that population will tend to be teens and young unmarried adults – that subpopulation is the vector for most STDs.

    In the case of many vaccine preventable diseases, children are the vectors, because they gather together in close quarters called schools and daycares, and their hygeine is not as good as adults, so they are sneezing and coughing all over and not washing their hands and spreading all sorts of disease to each other. Thus, they are the primary vectors for many diseases. When they are immunized, it significantly contributes to herd immunity, even though the immunity provided by the vaccine is not as long lasting as the immunity provided by the wild disease.

    Like

  72. Heather White
    January 7, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    @ Chris,

    The Tripedia DTaP vaccine contains trace.

    Like

  73. Gary
    January 8, 2011 at 1:21 am

    “I’m wondering what scientists use as a serological and neurological baseline before vaccination?”

    Uh, the not vaccinated?

    Researchers often test new vaccines against placebos especially in animals. But they test that way in humans also when it does not pose a significant threat to people’s health. You are trying to imply something, but your implication is simply incorrect.

    Like

  74. Gary
    January 8, 2011 at 1:25 am

    “Moreover, how would you suggest children with ASD are obtaining HHV-6, CMV, MV, EBV, etc. ?”

    I don’t understand the question. They obtained them in the normal way that others obtained them ASD is often associated with immunological issues. Some patients seem to have over active immune systems while others seem to have under active ones. That a group os ASD patients have some infections is simply not surprising at all.

    Like

  75. January 8, 2011 at 3:46 am

    Gary,

    Really? Which part is incorrect?

    Tell me what neurological tests are done before and after vaccination? Pick up a textbook on clinical neurology and/or ophthalmology. Pediatricians have the clinical skills to test this — or they should have learned this in medical school.

    Tell me how a pediatrician is supposed to know if a child has a contraindication to a vaccine (listed on the vaccine insert) prior to vaccinating them.

    The response, “Well you see Jeff, vaccines are so safe that only one in a million have adverse reactions. So, *wink* trust me and get your child vaccinated.” doesn’t cut it anymore.

    PCRs would be just fine. And guess what? I bet we can even identify what strain is in these children. If they come from the vaccine I think we’d have a good answer as to where the children are picking up the viruses from. Until that work is done, everyone is just guessing. Even you.

    Like

  76. January 8, 2011 at 4:02 am

    “They obtained them in the normal way that others obtained them ASD is often associated with immunological issues.”

    Really? How do you know this? What strain did they have? Was it a wild strain of the virus or was it part of the manufactured strain at the lab? You’re just guessing and it’s obvious.

    You mean to tell me that a child that is developing neurotypical and then the same day, week, month they are vaccinated they regress and are diagnosed with autism…where do you make a connection? Are the parents observations disregarded? When does the pediatrician know best?

    Like

  77. Chris
    January 8, 2011 at 6:40 pm

    But the other two DTaP vaccines do not. Isn’t the thimerosal argument about ten years out of date?

    Like

  78. January 9, 2011 at 9:20 am

    Nathan,

    It’s disappointing that you started with Google University and formed an opinion. You can start with two contemporary sources “Viruses in Foods” (2006) by Sagar M. Goyal and “Foodborne Diseases” (1990) by Dean O. Cliver.

    “Food was first recognized as a vehicle for the transmission of viruses in 1914 when a raw milk-associated outbreak of poliomyelitis was reported. Additional milk-borne outbreaks were recognized after this time, but with the development of a vaccine for poliovirus, no outbreaks were reported in the developed world after the early 1950s.” (Goyal pp.1)

    “Poliomyelitis was the first reported foodborne viral disease, having been transmitted via raw milk as early as 1914. Raw milk predominated as the vehicle among the 10 outbreaks recorded through 1949, the last year in which foodborne poliomyelitis is known to have occurred in the United States or other reporting, developed countries.” (Cliver pp. 283)

    Like

  79. January 9, 2011 at 9:22 am

    There is too much information to list here, literally. You may even take interest in tonsillectomies and polio. I’d even venture to say when you take a look at those two, consider the possibility that the surgery patients ‘may’ have been fed iced cream after their tonsillectomy surgery.

    You can also start with Neal Nathanson’s unpublished reports of the Wyeth vaccine causing polio. He’s still alive and would probably send you the digital copies of his reports.

    Or for example, Albert Sabin reported in his record in the U.S. Army in WWII, milk was suspected as a possible or probably source of (polio) infection.

    A.B. Sabin: “Poliomyelitis,” in Preventive Medicine in World War II, Vol. 5, Communicable Diseases. Medical Dept. U.S. Army, Gov. Printing Office, 1960, pp. 367-400.

    Then you can go on PUBMED and look for all of Lloyd Aycock’s publications and investigations on polio. Why should you care who this man is?

    Dr. W. Lloyd Aycock was described by a biographer at the time of his death in 1951 as a man “who in the course of the past thirty-five years contributed more to our understanding of poliomyelitis than any living scientist.” As an acknowledged authority on the epidemiology of poliomyelitis, he investigated milk as being a common source for polio epidemics.

    Polio References:
    [1] Obituary note; William Lloyd Aycock 1889-1951. New Engl J. Med., 246: 158-59, 1952.
    [2] “Epidemiology,” chapter 7, in Poliomyelitis. International Committee for the Study of Infantile Paralysis, Baltimore, Williams & Wilkins, 1932, pp. 306-47, 452-57.
    [3] A.C. Knapp, E.S. Godfrey, Jr. , and W.L. Aycock: An outbreak of poliomyelitis, apparently milk-borne. J. Amer. med. Ass., 87: 625-39, 1926.
    [4] W.L. Aycock: Milk-borne epidemic of poliomyelitis. Amer. J. Hyg., 7: 791-803, 1927.
    [5] W.L. Aycock: The significance of the age distribution of poliomyelitis; evidence of transmission through contact. Amer. J. Hyg., 8:35-54, 1928
    [6] W.L. Aycock and S.D. Kramer: Immunity to poliomyelitis in normal individuals in urban and rural communities as indicated by the neutralization test. J. prev. Med., 4: 189-200, 1930.
    [7] W.L. Aycock and E.H. Luther: The occurrence of poliomyelitis following tonsillectomy. New Engl. J. Med., 200: 164, 1929.
    [8] M. Talmey: Reflections on predisposing factors in infantile paralysis. N.Y. med. J., 104: 202, 1916.

    Like

  80. January 9, 2011 at 9:22 am

    I’m not sure where you heard or have seen “formaldehyde” as being referenced as a causal agent for polio? That is a new one for me. It isn’t even listed as a differential diagnosis for acute flaccid paralysis. You can find a list here:

    Plotkin, S., Orenstein, W.;Vaccines, 4th edition. p. 657, Table 25-2.; 2004.

    I have heard, however, that DDT has been linked to polio. You “might” find that on Whale.to, but before you dismiss that as another “conspiracy theory” you may want to check out a PUBMED search on Dr. Morton S. Biskind. Then — do a search for Dairy Indemnity Program and DDT. If you want the actual congressional records I have them for your viewing pleasure (along with everything else I list here).

    Moreover, if you have ZERO idea who Thomas Francis, Thomas Rivers, Henry Kumm (DDT Spraying program in Italy, Rockefeller Scientist, NFIP Scientific Board Member), Albert Sabin, Basil O’connor, Jonas Salk, Hilary Koprowski, William Welch, Simon Flexner, etc. are and WHO they worked for, you risk of appearing VERY ignorant of making comments on the literary works I referenced (i.e. Award winning writer and researcher Edwin Black and acclaimed historian Lily Kay). I understand how the scientific community can dismiss literary works, though.

    Lastly, you may want to research John Enders and HeLa cells and see what their roll was in creating the polio vaccine. SV40 would be next on the list.

    This information is ALL in the peer reviewed literature and is there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Thomas Francis trained Jonas Salk how to make vaccines. If you think that he was going to say a bad word about the vaccine trial, then you better look at who was putting money in the coffer.

    Moreover, you may want to look at this:
    Passive Immunization Against Poliomyelitis
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449257/?tool=pmcentrez

    Autism is the new polio. After researching polio I have the firm understanding that autism isn’t some “mystery” disease that springs up from the ethereal. I don’t buy into this “scientific answer” that we don’t know where autism is coming from. Test the damn children. If you’re a doctor – do an immune panel on one of them. Surprise yourself.

    Parents are getting tired of doctors sticking their heads in the sand saying “we don’t know”. Look, I get it. If doctors try to find the answer they might have their license taken away. Going outside of the “standard of care” on some things can land a doctor in hot water, even if it is prescribing vitamins.

    Like

  81. Nathan
    January 14, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    Jeffry,

    Of course I googled it. you didn’t give me any sources. I googled “polio and milk,” and the top hit for it was the antivaccine/whale.to:

    http://www.whale.to/vaccine/polio3.html

    FORMALDEHYDE IN MILK has been reported as a cause of polio.

    Australian Medical Gazette, (Aug. 24, 1897) states that “formalin,” an aqueous solution of formaldehyde, caused paralysis in some who drank milk that contained it. Our U.S. Government permits the dairymen to add formaldehyde to milk so that stale, inferior milk may be sold as fresh milk. Formaldehyde is a poisonous embalming fluid that is, no doubt, one of the causes of the epidemics of diarrhea and death among the bottle fed infants in hospitals.

    The Lancet (Jan. 9, 1915) mentions an epidemic of polio that was said to have been caused by raw milk. It has never been. proved that raw milk has ever caused polio or undulant fever or any other disease but the added poison pre-servatives could cause many diseases. Pasteurization companies capitalized on this incident to stampede some laws into operation which would prohibit the sale of raw (unprocessed) milk. Pasteurization makes matters even worse because the heating process melts the butterfat in the milk and this coats the calcium globules and readers the calcium unassimilable to a large extent.

    Really, you denialists should get your stories straight. Either way you have produced no evidence that milk of any kind was so significant of a vector that pastuerization led to the elimination of polio, and coincidentally right when they started vaccinating, at that.

    You keep referring to books, which are, of course, the opinions of the authors. If they are legitimate, then they will have original sources. You should link to those. No one wants to spend their time reading the pontifications of conspiracy theorists. Lets see some hard data. Similarly, telling me to search through conspiracy theory websites for evidence is poor form. Link to it. Let’s see some evidence, not some random scientist’s personal beliefs. And rather than saying “research this,” why don’t you link me to an actual original source that represents the best evidence of your claims. An original source, though – not some internet personality’s interpretation of events.

    Much of what you mentioned I have read before. I agree that tonsillectomy may increase the risk of contracting polio, which is yet another good reason to be vaccinated, and that there were outbreaks from contaminated milk. I found no particularly compelling evidence of DDT causing polio. But, like I said, if you link to an original source, I will be more likely to read it. Actual links are helpful, as some of the references you cited I could not find an original source for.

    Regardless of what contributed to the spread of polio, none of the above is evidence of any sort that anything other than the polio vaccine led to the rapid sustained drop in polio deaths and cases. (See figure 1: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/2/568.long)

    I read “Passive Immunization Against Poliomyelitis.” It seems to quite nicely support the efficacy of the vaccine. How do you believe it supports your position?

    Test the damn children. If you’re a doctor – do an immune panel on one of them. Surprise yourself.

    Parents are getting tired of doctors sticking their heads in the sand saying “we don’t know”. Look, I get it. If doctors try to find the answer they might have their license taken away. Going outside of the “standard of care” on some things can land a doctor in hot water, even if it is prescribing vitamins.

    There are many studies on the immune systems of autistic children and you really should look into them or you run the risk of “appearing VERY ignorant” yourself. Go to pubmed, type in “autism immunoglobulins” and enjoy. There is quite a bit of understanding that the immune systems of autistic individuals are different that others. This is true about many known genetic diseases, including Down syndrome. It does not mean that vaccines cause Down Syndrome or autism.

    Research is coming out regularly about the causes and risks of autism. If you are not aware of that, than you are the one sticking your head in the sand! However, doing things that are not shown to be effective, and may in fact be dangerous (like unneccesary testing or therapies like chelation) may indeed get a doctor in hot water. No question there.

    Like

  82. January 14, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Nathan,

    I’ve already had my autistic child tested. Do you know what his immune panel results show? He’s clinically ill.

    How many autistic children have you tested? What do you test before and after vaccination to ensure you are not harming children? Tell me the neurological and immunological tests you perform.

    Thank you.

    Like

  83. January 14, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    Nathan,

    Right off the bat —

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21182209

    Lowered IgG levels. Doesn’t this just scream to look at hypgammaglobulinemia? Have you read the contraindications of the vaccine inserts?

    Like

  84. Nathan
    January 14, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    Lowered IgG levels. Doesn’t this just scream to look at hypgammaglobulinemia?

    It might, if I did not know that neonatal immunoglobulins are reflective of the maternal immunoglobulins. The study discusses this. There is in fact a body of research on autism and maternal immunoglobulins during pregnancy. You can see some of it linked to through this blog post: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/12/recent-autism-abstracts-in-pubmed/

    I am very glad that you have started to look into that research. One of the things you can do to keep up with the latest autism research is to use pubmed to alert you whenever studies come out with certain keywords, like autism.

    We’ve already discussed screening tests, and I don’t want to perpetuate a circular discussion. I was interested in whether you had strong evidence that the polio vaccine did not virtually eliminate polio in the US. Do you still want to discuss that?

    Like

  85. January 14, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Sir,

    With all due respect, I have been looking into this for quite some time. You may also want to look at microglial activation in association with autism.

    Nobel Prize winner and geneticist Mario Capecchi at Utah made a direct correlation between immune dysfunction and psychiatric diseases and its association with microglial activation.

    The question is – does repeated vaccination activate microglial cells? In the opinion of Neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock the answer is yes. Obviously more testing and scientific studies must be done to show a direct causal relationship.

    If you have not read the earlier postings above, there is also evidence pointing to viral encephalitis — HHV-6, MV, EBV, CMV, Rubella, etc.

    To your point on polio – sure. I will, however, not have a one sided discussion of the ‘science’ of polio without the acknowledgment of who funded the research which is a foundational tenant of, for example, determining conflicts of interest in todays medical journals.

    You can contact me personally at jeff.aufderheide@gmail.com if you would like me to share files with you. I am more than willing to do this.

    And to tell you the truth, the reason I have researched polio to the degree that I have is because it is the foundational argument for the justification of our vaccine program.

    For example, I do have in my possession the first three International Polio Conferences. Do you know what they say? Do you know the poliovirus was cultured on HeLa cells, for example?

    What about your knowledge of SV40? Go to pubmed and do a “SV40 autism” search once. Ask yourself why Albert Sabin and Jonas Salk said the others vaccine was ‘dangerous’. That isn’t my opinion, that is a fact of congressional record.

    The discussion is not a matter of black and white — who is wrong and who is right. There are multiple factors to consider. If you want to continue the discourse, I would be more than happy to do so.

    Thank you.

    Like

  86. Nathan
    January 14, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    Jeffry,

    Thanks. I too have read much about neuroimmunity with regards to autism, in particular the research that is coming out of Johns Hopkins. Yet I have never found anything remotely resembling strong evidence of causation for vaccines and autism. I am familiar with Dr. Blaylock and his personal opinion about vaccines and autism. They are not supported with the published literature, and I am unlikely to take his word for it as it seems, like most medical professionals who oppose vaccines, that he has the ulterior motive of selling his version of the alternative (his “Brain Repair Formula” and the like). I have read your links regarding those infections as well as SV40, yet I see no evidence of a vaccine-autism link. On the other hand, all the reputable published literature to date shows no link, and virtually every expert on immunology and autism agree.

    My apologies if I offended you. I absolutely believe that you have looking in to this for quite some time. When I mentioned pubmed, I just wanted to make sure you were up to date on the latest research.

    Thanks for the interesting conversation.

    Like

  87. Gary
    January 17, 2011 at 5:37 am

    I know this because it is the most logical supposition.

    See, Jeffry, you are not being honest. You are trying to imply something (Not certain, but probably that vaccines infect autistic people). You are also trying to turn this accusation around to suggest that I have not done enough genetic tests to know that your accusation is not true. But this is not the way things are done. If you want to insinuate something, then say it and provide the evidence that it is true.

    “You mean to tell me that a child that is developing neurotypical and then the same day, week, month they are vaccinated they regress and are diagnosed with autism…where do you make a connection? Are the parents observations disregarded? When does the pediatrician know best?”
    See, I have heard this canard many times as well. I tell you what. You tell me that you have documented evidence that a great number of children developed exactly as you described AND that nothing else happened in their lives just before nor just after the vaccination, and I might listen to you. Otherwise, you are simply making a pretty thin supposition. You are suggesting that one thing happened and then another happened. Even if this is true, it simply does not imply a causal relationship between the first thing and the second.

    Meanwhile, many many studies have now been done to look for the effect you are alleging. Namely that vaccinations can lead to developmental disorders. It simply is not there. Certainly NOT in the sorts of numbers you allege. Why did the autism rates continue to go up in Europe and Japan after the MMR vaccines were withdrawn? If vaccination has any appreciable affect on the cause of autism, why did the removal of this vaccine not cause the rate to decline or at least level out?

    Like

  88. January 17, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Dear Gary,

    I am handed your line of reasoning all too often. I am not telling you to do genetic testing – that is a line of pseudo-science you apparently have been led to believe is somehow true.

    You apparently do not understand the implications of what I am talking about. Autism is currently classified under the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder. However, autistics are shown to be clinically ill. That doesn’t bode well for that classification that the belief of autism is untreatable.

    It’s not YOU Gary – it’s the way you think. It’s the way many pediatricians think. Next time you give vaccines you might want to think about the fact that they have not been tested in combination – and that is in the vaccine insert.

    I’m almost hesitant to give these to you because I sincerely doubt you’ll even know what to do with the results. For example, if there are high MV titers you would be inclined just to say, “Oh – he’s high in measles, low in Rubella – we’d better vaccinate him here again.” I can almost guarantee that is your line of thinking.

    These tests can be done by Labcorp or Quest.
    Complete Blood Count (CBC)
    Immune Panel (Lymphocyte Subset Panel 1)
    NK Cell Activity
    Sedimentation Rate (ESR)
    C-Reactive Protein
    Quantatative Immunoglobulins (IGG, IGA, IGM, IGE)
    IgG SubClasses Panel
    Alpha Interferon, EIA
    Herpesvirus Type 6 Antibodies (IgG)
    Tumor Necrosis Factor-Alpha
    Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
    ANA IFA Screen with Reflex to Titer
    Herpesvirus Type 1 & 2 Antibodies
    Epstein-Barr Virus Antibody (IgG/IgM)
    Anti-Streptolysin O Antibody (ASO)
    Rubella Virus Antibody (IgG)
    Measles Virus Antibody IgG
    Mumps Virus Antibody (IgG)
    Gliadin Antibody Panel (IgG, IgA)
    CMV Virus Antibody (IgG) with Reflex to (IgM)
    Coxsackie B Virus (1-6) Antibodies
    Thyroid Panel with TSH and T-3

    And – if you ask many parents or folks that have tried to help children with autism or an ASD, they will likely tell you that what they are dealing with are polymicrobial infections.

    If you don’t know what that looks like, look at this book for a resource/reference for searching pubmed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2475/

    Lastly, see if you can find a test for activated microglia cells.

    http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism_faqs.htm
    http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/17/4/942

    Nobel Prize winner Mario Capecchi, I’m sure, would share that information with you out of Utah. He is a very nice fellow.

    Like

  89. January 29, 2011 at 12:22 am

    Breaking News that changes everything,
    Dr. Wakefield is, finally, vindicated­. This round table interview is the beginning of the end for all we have been up against in this vaccine war. Hear the 27th. It will be the best 4 hours you’ve ever spent;

    http://www­.progressi­veradionet­work.com/t­he-gary-nu­ll-show-wn­ye/

    Be sure to hear Brian Deer’s awesome interview on the 25th where he’s revealed clearly for all who care to see. He hangs himself with his own words, dodging questions & changing the subject, in his obvious ploy to try to pull off the “Elaborate Fraud” he represents­.

    “Documents emerge proving Dr Andrew Wakefield innocent; BMJ and Brian Deer caught misreprese­nting the facts”

    http://www­.vaccinesa­fetyfirst.­com/pdf/BR­IAN%20DEER%20­IS%20THE%2­0LIAR%20.p­df

    “Dr Wakefield demands retraction from BMJ after documents prove innocence from allegation­s of vaccine autism data fraud/
    Uncovered Documents Prove There Was No Fraud in Lancet Case Series”

    http://www­.vaccinesa­fetyfirst.­com/pdf/BM­J%20MUST%20­RETRACT.pd­f

    “Wakefield Gives Proof: No Fraud. Brian Deer Lied”

    http://gai­a-health.c­om/article­s351/00039­4-wakefiel­d-proof-no­-fraud.sht­ml

    There you have it. Vindicatio­n for the good doctor. Charges will be brought against Brian Deer. See for yourself. Brian’s short interview gives him away & the four hour round table gave the proof.

    Like

  90. Gary
    January 29, 2011 at 1:59 am

    Fascinating. NONE of those links work for me. But since Steve already pointed to a natural news article making essentally the same claims, I am going to respond to you spam with my own.

    There are so many problems with that natural news article that it almost sets a new record for natural news. And that’s saying a lot.

    1) The first sentence is a lie. “In light of new evidence that has emerged clearing Dr Wakefield of the allegations that he fabricated study data involving MMR vaccines and symptoms of autism,”
    This evidence is not new. The GMC which investigated the case saw almost all of it during their enquiry. Wakefiled presented this evidence to the court in Britain when he sued Brian Deer and his lawyer was forced to settle the case in Deer’s favor including paying Deer’s court costs. This evidence also does not clear Wakefiled of anything. It consists of notes discovered by his co author (the only one of his co authors to also be stripped of his license) purporting to show similar results to those reported by Wakefield in the now infamous report. These notes of his co author are described in the article as “another medical research team which included a senior pathologist independently documented evidence of a possible MMR vaccine – autism link 14 months before Dr Wakefield’s paper first appears in The Lancet”.

    2) The newly released documents cited in the article are little more than Mr Whitefield’s own book.

    3) Given that the GMC heard all of this evidence and still found Wakefield guilty of dishonesty, it seems very unlikely that any court would find that either Brian DEER nor the BMJ has acted unethically. Certainly not to an extent that would require a retraction.

    Here is the GMC decision: http://briandeer.com/solved/gmc-charge-sheet.pdf

    See especially the section labeled “Child 2″. It details this child’s participation in the study dating back to the time that the “new” information is supposed to indicate that this child was being seen by an independent researcher.

    NONE of that article is true. If anyone should retract anything, natural news should retract that post. They won’t, of course, and they can’t be expected to. It is a new low for them, indeed, but it is not really that far below their regular standards.

    Like

  91. January 29, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    Again, Gary. Your points & link to the GMC decision are moot. Did you, even, listen to the real facts exposed in the four hour round table on the 27th at the first link? Did you listen to Lie/n Brian’s incriminating interview on the 25th, there? I don’t think that link was corrupted so did you listen & scrutinize all five hours & the many documents presented, too. Did you, Gary?

    Deer’s interview, very appropriately, began with the song, “Oh Happy Day” & he hung himself completely. Case closed. Did you hear of the charges being brought against the GMC & Brian Deer? The table have turned so there’s no sense in your trying to continue the cover up with that same old rhetoric & propaganda you’ve been taught to parrot your bogus talking points with.

    If the links I sent became corrupted just cut & paste or type the subjects in Google or any search engine you like;

    The interviews:

    http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com/the-gary-null-show-wnye/

    If the above link won’t work, type or paste, progressiveradionetwork.com, into any search engine like Google.

    “Documents emerge proving Dr Andrew Wakefield innocent”
    Type or paste the above words for many sites & sources carrying the story if the link’s broken.

    http://www.naturalnews.com/031116_Dr_Andrew_Wakefield_British_Medical_Journal.html

    “Dr Wakefield demands retraction from BMJ after documents prove innocence from allegation­s of vaccine autism data fraud”

    http://dailypaul.com/node/155324

    “Wakefield Gives Proof: No Fraud. Brian Deer Lied”

    http://gaia-health.com/articles351/000394-wakefield-proof-no-fraud.shtml

    For those who might not know how to fix links. The same goes for these last two links as with any broken ones you find from here on out. Put a whole sentence or subject matter in Google or whatever search engine you choose. You can do this for any links as they, many times, become corrupted. You usually will find a gold mine of credible cites & sources on whatever you’re trying to research but there will, usually, be disinformation needed sorted out. That’s where we get to use our own logic & common sense instead of just beLIEving what we are fed.

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