Home > Expert Insights, Get Involved, Policy > Congressional Briefing Attempts to Discredit Vaccine Injury Compensation

Congressional Briefing Attempts to Discredit Vaccine Injury Compensation

November 8, 2013
On November 7th, a congressional briefing, entitled “The Injustice of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)” was sponsored by “The Canary Party” and billed as a precursor to a hearing scheduled on December 4th in the Committee of Government Oversight and Reform. 
Dorit Rubinstein Reiss, a passionate vaccine advocate with intimate knowledge of the legal system and  Professor at University of California Hastings College of the Law, attended the briefing and provided the following post as her personal response to comments she heard there.

 Doing Away With NVICP: Bad For Plaintiffs, Bad For Society

by Dorit Rubinstein Reiss

At a briefing in Congress about the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP), Ms. Mary Holland and Mr. Rolf Hazelhurst criticized the program’s operation. Ms. Holland, addressing several possible reform options, rejected improving the program (what she called “tinkering at the edges”) as a way to fix the problems she identified. Her solution was to have claims of vaccine injuries litigated in the regular courts, either through making NVICP optional, limiting it to the original 7 vaccines it covered in 1986, or repealing the act completely. Doing so would be an error. From plaintiffs’ perspective, adjudication through NVICP is either equivalent to the courts or better. For society, too, vaccine injuries are better handled by NVICP than by the regular courts.

What is NVICP?

congress

In 1986, Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Compensation Act, creating NVICP as a no-fault alternative to the tort system.    NVICP provides an administrative scheme to compensate those who claimed they were injured by a vaccine. Parallel schemes exist in other countries. The initial determination is made by a special master, but petitioners can appeal to a judge of the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, which also appoints the special master. A decision of that judge can then be appealed to the relevant Federal Circuit.  The program was established to allow plaintiffs to sue the federal government rather than individual vaccine manufacturers in order to ensure the continued supply and development of new vaccines.

Since its creation the program has compensated 3412 claims to the tune of $2,777,620,433.90 (these numbers were accurate as of November 7, 2013). If those numbers look large to you, a reality check is in order: whether compared to the number of vaccine doses administered or to injuries from other sources, 3412 claims in 25 years is a tiny number.   And while close to $2.8 billion sounds like a lot, the costs of motor vehicle accidents in 2009 alone – one year v. NVICP’s 25 – was $244.7 billion.

The Plaintiffs’ Perspective:

Ms. Holland’s case focuses on the claim that NVICP is unjust and painful for plaintiffs. There is probably room for improving the program (or any other administrative program). But Ms. Holland is not interested in improving the program: she wants to abolish it and send plaintiffs to the courts. As pointed out by Neil Komesar in his book “Imperfect Alternatives”, when choosing between institutions, the question is not whether one of the choices is good or bad in abstract, but which one is better at handling the problem at hand. And on every aspect she raised, NVICP is equivalent to or better than the civil courts for any plaintiff with a valid claim.

Ms. Holland highlights that most petitioners lose. She said 80% of cases lose, which means only 20% of plaintiffs win. My calculations were slightly different – I calculated the rate of winning to be 26% (3412 claims compensated out of 13077 adjudicated). While that might seem low, again a comparison is in order: In 2005, the last year for which we have data, plaintiffs won only 20% of non-asbestos product liability claims.  Product liability claims are simply hard to win. In whatever forum. Sending plaintiffs to the regular courts would not make proving the claims easier for plaintiffs. One reason for that was mentioned by Ms. Holland herself: showing causation for product liability can be hard. NVICP actually gives plaintiffs a break on that: if they have a table injury (a table listing conditions likely to be caused by vaccines, if occurring within a set time) within the defined time, causation is assumed. While many plaintiffs bring injuries that are not on the table, requiring them to prove causation does not disadvantage them compared to the regular courts: there, too, plaintiffs would have to show that more likely than not the defect in question caused their injuries.

The real problem Ms. Holland and her colleagues face – a problem glossed over in the Canary Party video and her presentation, (as addressed in detail herehere and here) is that for the main injury they want to address, the claim that vaccines cause autism, they have no credible evidence for causation , and there is abundant evidence on the other side. Many, many studies examined that question finding no link. Claims that vaccines cause autism were also rejected in several lengthy decisions by NVICP as part of the Autism Omnibus Proceeding. Mr. Hazlehurst argued that the rejection was because of government corruption; but the lengthy, detailed, thoughtful decisions of the special masters show differently. The special masters carefully examined plaintiffs’ evidence. It simply did not support the alleged causal link. In fact in one opinion, Special Master George Hastings wrote,

“This case, however, is not a close case. The overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners’ causation theories…In short, this is a case in which the evidence is so one-sided that any nuances in the interpretation of the causation case law would make no difference to the outcome of the case.”

Similarly, the other conditions Ms. Holland wants to connect to vaccines – a large array of chronic conditions – lack evidence of a causal connection.

A causation problem also exists for the HPV cases in the video Ms. Holland ended her presentation with. In the video, multiple girls suffering from various conditions – or parents of deceased young girls – say to the camera that it is not a coincidence. Sincere as their belief in the causal connection to the HPV is, and painful as their conditions are, belief is not enough, and none of these cases has objective evidence of such a connection. Studies examining the HPV vaccine did not find that it caused the harms claimed – for example, a large study from the United States  and an even larger study from Sweden. With no credible evidence, these claims too face very high hurdles in the civil courts. In NVICP, the government – following Congress’ mandate to compensate even cases in doubt – settled a small number of HPV cases. A private litigant would not be operating under such a mandate.

Moving to the civil courts will not solve this problem. The same requirement of showing that the vaccine more likely than not caused the harm will apply. The same outcome should result.

Other problems raised by Ms. Holland are procedural. She says that the program forecloses access to other forums. That’s only partly accurate – while after Brusewitz v. Wyeth suits for design defect cannot be brought in state courts, a plaintiff can reject the special master’s determination and sue in state courts if her claim is based on a manufacturing defect or warning defect.  And at any rate, by itself, the lack of an alternative forum is not a problem if the proposed forum is good enough.

She complains the NVICP has become adversarial in a way that Congress did not intend. First, a quick glance at the cases published online shows that most cases – as with the civil courts – settle; and second, if a plaintiff is interested in a non-adversarial process, sending them to the civil courts is hardly the solution: our trial system is an adversarial one.

Ms. Holland complains about the length of the trials. Ideally, victims would be compensated swiftly, but product liability trials are complicated, and can easily take a long time in the courts: of the trials lasting more than 3 years in the federal courts in 2009-2011, about half are product liability cases.  (See examples here and here.) We just cannot assume trials will be quick in the civil courts. In one example, Mr. Tenuto contracted paralytic polio from his daughter’s Oral Polio Vaccine. He had the choice of suing through NVICP but chose to go through the regular federal courts. Mr. Tenuto was injured in 1979. The case ended thirty years later in 2010.  The NVICP has the infrastructure to more rapidly adjudicate cases – as Ms. Holland points out, the rules of procedure are relaxed, making the process easier on plaintiffs, and there is no discovery or jury trial, again streamlining the process. If even under those conditions the process takes a long time, imagine the length in the civil courts for these complicated cases.vaxcourt

Ms. Holland attacks the lack of judicial independence of the special masters; it’s true that neither the special masters nor the judges of the Court of Federal Claims are appointed for life, as federal judges are. But the judges who appoint the special masters are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate for 15 years; and the judges of the Circuit Courts to which the decision can be appealed do enjoy life tenure. In contrast, the state civil courts have judges who may be elected or appointed politically subject to retention election.

She complains about lawyer fees being slashed and delayed and expert fees delayed and reduced as well. I would like to see some evidence that fees are lower at NVICP than elsewhere. If they are, and it affects the ability of families to find representation, a modest reform might be in order – but Ms. Holland had not made that case. At any rate, this criticism ignores an important aspect of the process: NVICP covers lawyer fees and costs, even if you lose. This means that lawyers appearing before NVICP have guaranteed income, which may compensate for a lower return (it may also provide an incentive to lawyers to bring cases with lower chances of success to the program, thus increasing the number of unjustified claims. A reform addressing lawyer fees should probably examine the entire framework and its effect on cases). It also means plaintiffs receive the full award directly instead of paying the lawyer 30-50% as a contingency fee.

Ms. Holland also highlights the statute of limitations, with a period of three years (which Mr. Hazelhurst erroneously suggested starts on the date of vaccination. Actually, the clock of limitations starts “after the first symptom of the vaccine injury”. But statutes of limitation exist in civil courts too, and may even be shorter. One example is in California where the statute of limitations for personal injuries is “Two years from the injury. If the injury was not discovered right away, then it is 1 year from the date the injury was discovered.”

Finally, plaintiffs going through the civil courts would have to prove a design defect. Proving a design defect is done under principles of negligence, and is not easy. This would be an additional burden facing plaintiffs before they can recover.

In short, NVICP offers plaintiffs substantial advantages over the regular courts. Is the process perfect? Certainly not. But neither would a court process be, and it would impose substantial burdens on plaintiffs.

The Social Perspective

From a social perspective, NVICP offers substantial advantages. The most obvious is that by protecting manufacturers from liability, NVICP reduces the risk of manufacturers leaving the market and of vaccine shortages. This is not a theoretical risk: vaccine shortages – and resultant diseases outbreaks, harming children – were behind the original act.

In addition, handling such cases by a specialized court allows for more expert determination, and the simplified procedures can guarantee quicker, more efficient compensation (the process may need reforming, and it is worth examining; but the potential for a more streamlined and efficient process than a regular court proceeding is there).

Ms. Holland suggests that an advantage of going through the courts will be to incentivize manufacturers to make vaccines safer. But vaccine safety is already regulated in other ways, with important safeguards in place to assure safety: vaccines have to go through three stages of clinical trials before they go on the market, the last stage involving tens of thousands of people and they are carefully monitored after market . A vaccine can be pulled off the market (as has happened in the past) if a serious safety problem arises. Ms. Holland does not explain why that’s not enough of a safeguard.

Two groups would benefit from abolishing NVICP: plaintiffs who cannot prove causation and lawyers who would like more control of the fee structure.

Plaintiffs who cannot prove causation may, in the regular court system, come across a judge who will let the claim go forward in spite of the lack of evidence. Judges should not: if plaintiff does not bring credible evidence that more likely than not defendants caused their harm, a claim should be dismissed. But even judges can make mistakes, so it is possible for a judge to wrongly accept flawed studies or let a case go forth with insufficient evidence, and a judge unfamiliar with the subject matter is more likely to do so than a judge in a forum that specializes in vaccine injury cases. And a jury may accept a claim with insufficient evidence, especially when faced with a child suffering a severe disability.

It’s easy to feel sympathy for a child with serious disabilities, and for the family having to support and help that child. And it may be appropriate for society to provide for such children, regardless of the cause of their problem. That’s a discussion worth having. But that’s not what the United States’ torts system is set up to do: the torts system is not a government insurance or assistance problem. It would, in fact, be very bad at it. It’s adversarial, it’s formalized and technical (leading to delays and costs), and because decisions are made by individual decision makers and not subject to any close centralized control, it’s inconsistent. It would be an expensive, inefficient, and probably unjust way to administer social assistance.

What the tort system is supposed to do is compensate plaintiffs who can show that a tort by the defendant caused their harm. As sad as their plight might be, plaintiffs who cannot show causation should not be compensated through the tort system. And the possibility that the system might err and compensate them anyway is not a reason to replace NVICP with a civil trial. If anything, it’s a reason not to.

The other group that may benefit from replacing NVICP with a court trial is lawyers who will be willing to take these cases on contingency fees and absent the program’s regulation will be have freedom to set costs (e.g. for expert reports). They will also collect 30-50% of whatever is awarded at trial.

I teach at a law school. I have friends, colleagues, and students who are lawyers. Most of the people I know in the legal field are highly ethical, bright, well-intentioned and professional. I would be the last person to attack lawyers’ desire to make a living. But the ability of lawyers to be able to get more money at the expense of the plaintiffs is not a good policy reason to want to move away from NVICP.

Every Child By Two is galvanizing support among their large base of vaccine advocates while also working with various national immunization organizations to address any concerns raised at the December 4th hearing,  They will be following these concerns, educating congressional leaders about the benefits of vaccines and keeping you informed via future posts.

  1. reissd
    November 8, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Thank you for hosting my post.

  2. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 2:49 am

    Thank you Dorit Reiss for this excellent post about the upcoming Congressional hearing, and the ramifications of destroying the structure in place for compensating children who have been harmed by a vaccine.

  3. November 9, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Thank you for writing this, Dorit, and to SoP for posting it. Shared widely.

  4. Amy pisani
    November 9, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    thank you very much Dorit for your rapid and detailed analysis of the briefing!

  5. November 9, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Scrap the adversarial Vaccine Court and make vaccine makers liable for vaccine damage–just like with Johnson and Johnson that recently got fined billions of dollars for making claims about riisperadol that were never approved by the FDA. Why should vaccines, which are drugs, be placed in any different category than other Pharma drugs which people can sue for damages.> Of course, it shouldn’t. 1 in 50 children now with autism(1 in 31 boys). You’d think Ms Reiss would put childrens’ health first.
    Maurine Meleck SC

  6. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    There is no need to scrap the Vaccine Court, which, by the way, is not adversarial. If you had read any of the decisions, including the Hazelhurst decision, you would realize that the Special Master and the respondents’ attorneys bend over backwards to permit the plaintiffs and the plaintiffs’ attorneys to present evidence that a vaccine or a series of vaccines caused a child’s autism.

    Here, just a few of the studies conducted by researchers from around the world, that describe the safety of vaccines and the lack of association between vaccines, the ingredients in vaccine, the timing and spacing of vaccine and the onset of autism…or any other developmental disability:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    You’d think that you and Age of Autism would put childrens’ health first, by refraining from your activities to scare credulous away from vaccines.

  7. November 9, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    One would think that Maureen Melnick would put children’s health first, but she would take away the most reliable way of compensating children with rare vaccine injuries, the Vaccine Court. In reality, one wonders whether trial lawyers working for the pharmaceutical companies sold the antivaccinationists a bill of goods. They’d be the only ones to profit if the Vaccine Court were weakened or eliminated. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/11/08/antivaccinationists-brief-congressional-staffers-and-the-misinformation-flows/

  8. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 9, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Maurine Meleck :
    Scrap the adversarial Vaccine Court and make vaccine makers liable for vaccine damage–just like with Johnson and Johnson that recently got fined billions of dollars for making claims about riisperadol that were never approved by the FDA. Why should vaccines, which are drugs, be placed in any different category than other Pharma drugs which people can sue for damages.> Of course, it shouldn’t. 1 in 50 children now with autism(1 in 31 boys). You’d think Ms Reiss would put childrens’ health first.
    Maurine Meleck SC

    Ms. Reiss does put children’s health first. She wants to see children protected from infectious disease. If you don’t believe that is putting children’s health first, why not? Ms. Reiss does not promote untested and dangerous faux autism therapies, like your organizations do.

    First, show that the court is adversarial. It’s a nice catch phrase, but how exactly is it adversarial? HHS argues against cases they don’t think should be compensated. That’s not adversarial. The court has held hearings in people’s home towns, even in their homes to accomodate them. I seem to recall vaccine attorney Robert Krakow having to ask the court to reinstate his kid’s case. After multiple attempts to contact Krakow and his attorney to proceed with the case, the Special Master closed the case. Krakow asked to be reinstated and the court agreed. Is that adversarial? Krakow asked for the document to be redacted from the docket, and it was. Is that adversarial?

    If vaccine manufacturers were to withhold information like J&J, would they not be failing to warn the public? Manufacturers have liability for failure to warn.

    We, the people of the United States, have accepted liability for vaccine injury. And the vaccine industry has accepted a great deal of regulation in return. Show me one of the supplement manufacturers that advertise on your blog who would accept the level of inspection that vaccine manufacturers go through.

    ” for making claims about riisperadol that were never approved by the FDA”

    Perhaps you could limit yourself to claims that are actually supported by facts?

  9. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Is this fact enough for you? You and those that inject these chemicals into children should be charged with crimes against nature! Fear mongering is what you do to scare parents into injecting this crap into their children. I had measles, chicken pox and mumps as a child in the 60’s, when children still contracted the transient illnesses naturally. I never heard of any child dying from these. Infant mortality rat was low and childhood cancer, developmental disability, autoimmune disease, childhood diabetes was VERY rare in adults and unheard of in children. Why do you think our kids are sicker and dying at younger ages than ever in history? Maureen is right. Crawl out from under your cok and check FDA drug recalls and death by pharmaceuticals. Suppose your some of the parents that place your young children on psychotropic drugs also. I want protections in place and make pharmaceuticals manufacturers liable for loss of life due to their products. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

    http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Zdravlje/excipient-table-2.pdf

  10. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Could someone please point me to a legitimate, science-based source of this 1 in 50 rate? For the life of me, I look and look and can’t find anything but conspiracy blogs. For me to consider anything posted, I have to start there and work up. I would think if they wanted to lay out true concern and be taken as legitimate professionals, the numbers they site would match with the legitimate data (1 in 88. Quite a difference.) If you start your argument with a non-truth, how is anything that follows from that to be taken as anything but non-truth?

    As for claims and pharmaceuticals, they do. Vaccine makers are required to list efficacy and safety, and would be held accountable if they didn’t. But they are, at least legitimate claims of efficacy and safety. The problem is that Ms. Meleck and her friends hold that there are problems that don’t exist. If they don’t exist, there’s nothing to disclose. The NVICP exists to help those children who fall into the very, very small pool of people who were unfortunate enough to experience one of the risks DISCLOSED by vaccine-makers.

    It all is coming back to conspiracy again. Imagined rates and imagined dangers, and that’s their problem with the NVICP. They don’t want to fix it to better suit those who legitimate claims based in fact, they want it to accept illegitimate claims based in fantasy.

  11. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    I know some of you will say: But But thimerosal was taken out of vaccines… After reading this MSDS on thimerosal you should ask yourself why would pharmacy ever put this in vaccines to begin with. Just know that American Academy of Pediatrics called for this to be put backin vacs due to no CHEAPER alternative!

  12. Tina Mahoney
  13. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    Tina, please also read the MSDS on formaldehyde and them swear on this blog you will never allow your body to synthesize amino acids again. Kthxbye.

  14. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    Have Tina, Maurine and Laura ever screened a child or adult for medical contraindications before administering a vaccine?

    Do Tina, Maurine and Laura (or any of the posters at Age of Autism), actually know the individual medical contraindications for each vaccine on the Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule? I doubt it.

    See the link for Medical Contraindications and the footnotes:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-vacc.htm

    lilady, RN, BSc-Nursing, public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist (retired)

  15. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    Tina:

    Scopie’s Law states:

    “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately… and gets you laughed out of the room.”

  16. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Believe CDC has rates 1 in 50. Autism Speaks has commercial that states 1 in 88, but wouldn’t put money on anything Autism Speaks speaks. You can find US infant mortality rate on CDC also. Last I checked infant mortality rate was rank 40. Don’t you find this rather odd considering the high rate of preventive healthcare and high rate of healthcare in general and US is noted as having highest rate of people receiving healthcare than any other country.

  17. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Laugh all you want at my source. Doesn’t change the fact that this MSDS is legitimate Eli Lilly. I actually have this MSDS in iBooks just had to use google search here, still doesn’t change fact so the last laugh is on you. Laugh all the way home, just tring to inform of dangers of so e chemicals in vaccines. Never mind the aborted fetus, or mixing your child’s DNA with animal DNA and the Aluminum that is wreaking havoc on brains. You can also search Chemical Abstract Numbers (CAS #’s ) if you are so inclined.check the Chemical Society also and learn that there are over 80,00 man made chemicals/compounds in use that have never been checked for safety and use by humans.

  18. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    Ah, I found it, with a comprehensive reason why, it’s expanded the age cohort and changing a number of variables not found in the 8-year-old group. Probably not an actual increase, just diagnosis based on severity discovered at different ages that may not have been noticed in the 8-year-old-group: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr065.pdf

    I’d put more faith in Autism Speaks than anything you say, though. Do you disregard them because they’ve moved away from your “hypothesis” about vaccines and are traitors to the cause?

    Also, the US ranks 29 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.pdf) as of 2004, the last year there was international comprehensive. And while I do find it concerning, it’s not for the reason you think. Perhaps the gap in overall health and poverty amongst certain populations have something to do with it. You see, this graph shows that the groups most likely to have the things you listed as having lower infant mortality than other groups, who may not. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6205a6.htm?s_cid=mm6205a6_w

    I am curious as to what CDC you’re reading, though. Unless it’s data posted on whale.to (Scopie, see above) that’s attributed to the CDC?

  19. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    I wasn’t laughing at your source, Tina (except whale.to), I use MSDSs all the time. I was laughing at your logic that just because something has adverse properties listed in an MSDS, it doesn’t mean that it is dangerous in all forms and all amounts. Formaldehyde was my example (you also ingest it in apples by the way! :O). The rest of your post just highlights how little you understand re: biology, chemistry, physiology, etc, etc.

  20. November 9, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    Veteran newsman Robert MacNeil interviewed Dr. David Amaral, a leading autism expert at the MIND Institute at UC-Davis, on PBS in April, 2011.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/amaralext_04-20.html

    When asked about vaccines and autism, Amaral said,

    “If the child had a precondition, like a mitochondrial defect. Vaccinations for those children actually may be the environmental factor that tipped them over the edge of autism. And I think it is incredibly important, still, to try and figure out what, if any, vulnerabilities, in a small subset of children, might make them at risk for having certain vaccinations. . . . And I frankly don’t think that there’s going to be a large group of children that – their autism is caused by their standard immunizations. But you know, it could be a small subset.”

    When the lead researcher of an autism study admits that vaccines may be a factor, it’s time we all woke up to the possibility. It’s also time scientists stopped merely identifying the disorder. And the courts must recognize it too. An epidemic is disabling a generation of children and we must stop it.

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  21. November 9, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    Dr. Sarah Bridges was on Fox News in 2011 talking about how her son developed autism following routine vaccinations. The government agreed and she was awarded a $7 to $8 million settlement for lifetime care. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXp4hM3eQuI

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  22. November 9, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    Dorit Reiss: “Many, many studies examined that question- finding no link. Claims that vaccines cause autism were also rejected in several lengthy decisions by NVICP as part of the Autism Omnibus Proceeding.”

    HDNet TV exposed the fact that while health officials continue to tell us studies show no link, the federal government has paid out millions of dollars for compensation for vaccine injuries that included autism.

    http://www.ebcala.org/unanswered-questions

    Video “Mixed Signals” On HDNet TV: http://blip.tv/hdnet-world-report/vaccines-and-autism-mixed-signals-5479546

    On Fox News, May 10, 2011, New York University law professor Mary Holland discussed the fact that a stunning report from Pace Law School revealed that for years, parents have won vaccine damage suits resulting in autism in federal court, all the while the government denied doing so. http://video.foxnews.com/v/4687300/law-school-links-autism-vaccines-in-report/

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  23. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    Lielady are you for real? Get your facts straight. Shouldn’t the doctors and nurses injecting this into children be doing the screening ? How is the one size fits all vaccine schedule beginning at day of birth and injecting newborn with Hep B even when parents screened and negative for Hep B and only way to contract is through sex and shared needles. Well maybe the shared needle does need coverage since VA was reusing needles on veterans by RN’s who should have known better. Your title doesn’t intimidate me, anyone with a brain can read, learn and go to school and get a degree in nursing or whatever they choose. Oh yeah and by the way I do not write for Age of Autism or whatever first grader retort you said. Your assumption is completely wrong. Checkmate!

  24. November 9, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Ms Reiss tells us that there are “important safeguard to assure safety already in place.

    This link shows the dramatic increase in the number of vaccine our children received between 1983 and 2012.

    Where is even one study on the cumulative effect of the increasing number of vaccines in the childhood schedule? THERE ISN’T ONE.

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  25. November 9, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    Dorit Reiss: “Many, many studies examined that question- finding no link. Claims that vaccines cause autism were also rejected in several lengthy decisions by NVICP as part of the Autism Omnibus Proceeding.”

    Every study used to disprove a link between vaccines and autism has been shown to have ties to the vaccine makers. Hundreds of individuals at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have conflict waivers because of their ties to the vaccine industry.
    The previous head of the CDC, Dr. Julie Gerberding, a long time denier of any link, is now head of the vaccine division at Merck.

    This is the question CBS News asked in 2008, “How Independent Are Vaccine Defenders?” http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-4296175.html

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  26. November 9, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Ms Reiss, more than anyone else, should be strongly advocating for a simple comparison study of fully-vaccinated and never-vaccinated children to finally put the autism–vaccine question to rest.

    If one in every 50 never-vaccinated children also has autism, the proof would be there for everyone to see. There are now so many parents too afraid to vaccinate that the study group is out there. There has never been study like this done and you can be sure that if one in 50 unvaccinated children with autism were really out there, ABC and CNN would make it the lead story on the news. They’d show us those children.

    Our health officials do retrospective studies like this all the time but they refuse to call for one that could end the most heated controversy in pediatric medicine. We all should be asking why. Unless and until this study is done, the question remains open.

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  27. November 9, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    The short trailer to the movie The Greater Good, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulmEGbwQsOU makes it clear that there are experts on both sides and a lot of serious questions that need to be asked. The medical community and health officials promote vaccines as the greatest achievement in modern medicine yet there is growing fear over vaccine side effects.

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  28. November 9, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    CBS News ran this story about Hannah Poling in 2010: Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award. Are we to believe that vaccines have nothing to do with autism–unless you’re Hannah Poling?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html

    Medical experts at HHS examined the evidence showing that vaccines caused her autism and they agreed. They conceded her case was valid.

    Many say that Hannah Poling had a pre-existing condition that predisposed her to developing autism as a result of vaccination. No one knows how “rare” this is. What if the rate of this pre-existing condiiton is one in 50?
    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  29. November 9, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    Dorit Reiss tells us that “the main injury they want to address, the claim that vaccines cause autism, they have no credible evidence for causation , and there is abundant evidence on the other side.”

    This is a link to a list of approximately 150 scientists and physicians who have serious concerns about vaccine safety.

    http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/news-views/doctors-and-scientists-with-concerns-about-vaccines/

    There are over 200 independent studies done by well-credentialed experts that raise serious concerns about vaccine side effects shown on The Greater Good website.

    http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/learn-more/science/.

    How many parents are even told when their child is vaccinated that neither the doctor nor the vaccine makers can be sued over vacine injury. There is no incentive for producing a truly safe product.

    If you are a worried parent, you are not alone. If you or your child has been vaccine-injured, you are not alone.

    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

  30. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    AnObserving really you know all about MSDS’s please enlighten me as to whom and why MSDS’s are made? You must work in a lab or with chemicals if you use MSDS’s everyday. just a guess. Don’t assume that you know my intentions. Why are you attacking me? You seem well versed in your mantra, back it up. So you say we eat formaldehyde on apples all the time and it’s perfectly safe? Why don’t you enlighten and educate me on formaldehyde and its safety for use in humans and vaccines. Please take the floor and back up your mantra.

  31. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    I’m surprised that our “esteemed” AoA commenters would throw their charges at the feet of the fully adversarial, expensive, and much maligned Civil Court system…..where it can take decades to litigate a single case….whereas legitimate claims can be processed through the Vaccine Court in a fraction of the time, including full payment of attorneys’ fees as well.

    They obviously have never been part of a Civil Litigation, because if they had, they would quickly realize how good they have it with the vaccine court.

    What it comes down to, is that people like Anne believe vaccines cause autism, despite all of the evidence to the contrary…and the Vaccine Court uses the best available evidence to make their rulings…and the Omnibus Hearings were the Anti-Vax opportunity to put forth their very best evidence…which was found to be sort lacking. Yet they continue to flog the dead horse.

  32. November 9, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Parents need to educate themselves. See the National Vaccine Information Center http://www.nvic.org/.
    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism http://www.ageofautism.com/

  33. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    @Tim – are you aware that you have more Formaldehyde circulating in your body and generated by natural metabolic processes than all vaccines you’d get, combined?

  34. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    @Anne – how does one like yourself become so delusional?

  35. Narad
    November 9, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    Scrap the adversarial Vaccine Court and make vaccine makers liable for vaccine damage–just like with Johnson and Johnson that recently got fined billions of dollars for making claims about riisperadol [sic] that were never approved by the FDA.

    Ms. Meleck, you might do better not to lead with an example that has nothing to do with what you claim it is directly relevant to, although that’s probably unduly optimistic. Had you paid the slightest bit of attention, you might have noticed that there are no private plaintiffs here and that design defects are not involved. Oh, and that it dragged on for about 10 years. There is one scrap of wishful thinking that you could extract, but I’ll wait for you to arrive at it first.

  36. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    Why would you attack parents of children harmed by vaccine by calling them anti-vax? Clueless! Hmmm how would anti-vaccine parents have children with vaccine damage claims if they were ANTI-VACCINATION? Stop attacking parents with children disabled and even killed by vaccines as has been proven in vaccine court. We are all adults here. Stop the name calling, and stigmatizing parents of disabled kids.really not necessary.

  37. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    @Tim – please show me one article from AoA that is “pro-vaccine,” if you can.

    If you would, please list the vaccines that you are in favor of.

  38. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    @Tim – some of us here are adults, who argue with Science and facts….unfortunately, the same does not apply to people like Anne.

  39. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    Stupid smartphone…I meant Tina.

  40. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    The Dachel bot is alive and well and posting her canned Spam.

    @ Tina:

    “Lielady are you for real? Get your facts straight. Shouldn’t the doctors and nurses injecting this into children be doing the screening ?”

    D’oh…I provided you with the link to medical contraindications screening tools that doctors and nurses use before they administer every vaccine.

    “How is the one size fits all vaccine schedule beginning at day of birth and injecting newborn with Hep B even when parents screened and negative for Hep B and only way to contract is through sex and shared needles.”

    You are wrong. Haven’t you ever heard about Vertical Transmission of the Hepatitis B virus, when a mother who is a chronic carrier of the virus?

    Haven’t you ever heard about Horizontal Transmission of the Hepatitis B virus in early childhood?

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5416a1.htm

    “Your title doesn’t intimidate me, anyone with a brain can read, learn and go to school and get a degree in nursing or whatever they choose.”

    The difference is that I studied biology, chemistry, human physiology, immunology, bacteriology, virology and epidemiology and attained a BSc-Nursing degree and passed my RN boards…and you didn’t.

    “Oh yeah and by the way I do not write for Age of Autism or whatever first grader retort you said. Your assumption is completely wrong. Checkmate!”

    Hmmm, I never stated that you “write for Age of Autism”…I stated that you post comments on Age of Autism.

    Busted!

  41. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Lawrence are you referring to me as Tim?

  42. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    Lielady WRONG! Guess again

  43. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    Hmmmm….Tina Mahoney + Age of Autism in Google brings up some interesting comments.

  44. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    I do not use CDC as a source of information but just figures that they would come up with something as hokey as vertical transmission to cover their vaccine agenda, after the fact. Quite honestly I do not care what degrees you hold so quit waving them around please i
    I’m beginning to get motion sickness. :) Hey your right up there with Bill Gates!! Sorry, actually your more credentialed than Gates

  45. Narad
    November 9, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Oh, huzzah! It’s time to play Inventory the Dachelbot. Citation tallies are cursory.

    #20: Previously used 2013 July 9 at usnews-dot-com, 2011 September at foxnews-dot-com

    #21: Fresh wrapping for old fish, well done.

    #22: More than 2900 Google hits.

    #24: 752 hits.

    #25: Fairly fresh, only deployed about a dozen times so far.

    #26: 59 hits.

    #27: 634 hits.

    #28: 403 hits.

    #29: 51 hits.

    #32: 109 hits.

  46. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Really Lawrence? Why don’t you post my comments made on Age of Autism here for me and all others to see? I’m waiting

  47. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    Still waiting

  48. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    and waiting

  49. Nathan
    November 9, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    “Hmmm how would anti-vaccine parents have children with vaccine damage claims if they were ANTI-VACCINATION?”

    Because that is how they are now, not how they were before they fell into the echoing woo-pit that is Age of Autism. It is not attacking to call a person antivaccine, it is simply a characterizing of their position. Having a disabled child does not make them not antivaccine.

    “But,” you might say, “they aren’t anti-vaccine, they are pro-safe-vaccine.” But we are all pro-safe-vaccine. An antivaxer, however, believes that vaccines are far more dangerous than they actually are, and refuses to recognize and have their mindset shaped by all the evidence of vaccine safety. Again, this has nothing to do with having, or not having, a disabled child.

  50. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    Oh my I see that David Gorski was here commenting earlier. Sorry… Didn’t mean to blow your cover Orac. Quit hiding behind alias come out of the closet David it’s OK.

  51. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    Your wait is over Tina. Remember this post on AoA, when the Dachel bot made a lame attempt to analyze a study about older fathers’ sperm and the risk of autism?

    “What about the young fathers who have fathered children ( yes, some families have more than one ASD child) with autism? Where is the study on young fathers of children with ASD? Where are the comparison studies, young fathers- older fathers? Was total amount of ASD children born to each (young/older) factored into this equation? I.e. 25 year old father has 3 children with ASD and 45 year old father has one child with ASD ( even though he may fathered 3 children total). You have to question the validity of studies that use one isolated area/ geographic region, where’s the comparison study of countries where ASD is at epidemic level ( maybe epidemic will be declared when one in five children have autism aka delayed developmental disorder) such as USA? I bet my last dollar, that if one conducted a thorough history ( birth records, age of father at birth, population age for study area) search of this you would find that this geographical area has an aged population. Definitely author bias here folks.

    Posted by: Tina Mahoney | August 27, 2012 at 11:03 AM”

    You stated…

    “I do not use CDC as a source of information but just figures that they would come up with something as hokey as vertical transmission to cover their vaccine agenda, after the fact.”

    Yeah…we all know that you don’t use any reliable sources and you lack the capacity to understand Vertical Transmission….or Horizontal Transmission…of the Hepatitis B virus.

    “Quite honestly I do not care what degrees you hold so quit waving them around please i
    I’m beginning to get motion sickness. :) Hey your right up there with Bill Gates!! Sorry, actually your more credentialed than Gates”

    Head over to the fainting couch. Don’t forget your pearls before you flounce off, Tina.

    Busted!

  52. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    @Tina – lilady beat me too it….Google is a wonderful thing.

    And back to my question, if you aren’t “anti-vaccine” it should be easy to find those pro-vaccine articles on AoA or list the vaccines you approve of, right?

  53. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    Stop throwing labels! Enough! You are stigmatizing parents of vaccine injured children by calling them anti-vaccine. It’s pretty obvious that these parents trusted vaccines were safe until their child either died or was damaged/ disabled by vaccine. This is about making pharmaceutical manufacturers liable for their own products that are “UNAVOIDABLY UNSAFE” and for the “greater good.” Vaccines are not proven to be safe. Are you for real? Why was vaccine court set up? Why have some received compensation for vaccine e injury? Some people believe anything their told. Think for yourself!

  54. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Waiting Tina…..

  55. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    @Tina – if an injury occurs because of a defect in manufacturing (such as contamination) the manufacturer can be sued….you need to do more than parrot AoA talking points.

    You don’t like the Vaccine Court because it won’t compensate for autism, admit it….

  56. Narad
    November 9, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    Stop the name calling

    Says the person who thinks “Lielady” is a witticism. So, let me get this straight: this is you?

    “my child was given Ciprofloxacin Otic ear drops laced with thimerosal and used post surgery placement of ear tubes. Soon after he lost all speech and cognitive that were developed (autism) but on par according to age.”

    And this?

    “Children and adults have already been unknowingly subjected to experimental pharmaceuticals under the guise of antibiotics.”

    And this?

    Are there any other conspiracies besides medical experimentation “under the guise of antibiotics” and secretly continuing to add thimerosal to vaccines that would be helpful as a backgrounder? As to this:

    Why would you attack parents of children harmed by vaccine by calling them anti-vax? Clueless!

    how does it relate to your statement that “No, [you] wouldn’t join this [Washington parenting] group of parents that recommend injecting children with man made chemicals to become a member. Take a look at the following vaccine excipients and media in vaccines, from the CDC”? Not anti-vax?

  57. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    @tina – there are risks with any medical treatment or drug…with vaccines, their safety profiles have been tracked for decades, so we can state the risks with a high degree of accuracy.

    Just because you don’t like the facts don’t make those facts any less true.

  58. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Like this series of safety studies:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    And still waiting Tina…..

  59. Narad
    November 9, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    I guess that poses a problem on the “I do not use CDC as a source of information” front as well, although that was kind of taken care of by your own remarks at #9 and #16. That particular comment is here; I wasn’t sure whether there was an automod link limit.

  60. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Yes I did make this statement, remember I couldn’t resist commenting on the stupidity of this waste of research money. Took you long enough to find one statement made by me and you found on Age of Autism? Must have been the only statement I ever made on this site, Hmm do you troll often? What a boring life you must lead. Weird that an adult would stalk other adults for nothing more than self satisfaction of demeaning them. This is getting weirder. Why don’t you ALL put your real names here if you have nothing to hide?

  61. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Tina, if you were honest, you wouldn’t be rejecting sources like the CDC out of hand, you’d provide evidence that they are unreliable.

  62. Gray Falcon
    November 9, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    How do we know Tina Mahoney is your real name? How do we not know you don’t have an agenda?

  63. Tina Mahoney
    November 9, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Bye Bye

  64. Lawrence
    November 9, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Still waiting Tina

  65. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    @ Tina, @Lawrence took care of my comments already, so I’ll just leave it at what he said. There are perfectly legitimate sources backing up my statements, it is not my job to research for you. Nor am I–or any of us–obliged to put our “real” names anywhere. A ‘nym does not negate the fact behind our statements.

    And your intention was clearly to point out that a compound with dangers listed in the MSDS should not be in vaccines. I countered by pointing to another that you all rail is in vaccines, and how it’s naturally a part of us, thereby questioning your glib assessment. Maybe you could also look up all the sources of aluminum, one of the most abundant elements on earth, that we are continuously ingesting/absorbing. Oh my.

    And, I’d like to point out on behalf of all of us, none of us do this strictly to demean you. We do it to counter misinformation posted by people like you, or the Dachel-bot, lest someone click thinking the sources are legitimate and respectable and represent reality.

  66. AnObservingParty
    November 9, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @ Gray Falcon, she has an agenda. Spreading fear based in misinformation.

  67. reissd
    November 9, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    I’m in transit and don’t have time to respond in detail, but I would like to respond to Tina’s unavoidably unsafe comment: Tina, like many others, misunderstands the term. Here is an explanation: http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/11/vaccines-and-unavoidably-unsafe-products.html. Short version: “in the law’s eyes, an unavoidably unsafe product is not a “super-dangerous” product. Quite the opposite, an unavoidably unsafe product is a product whose tremendous benefits justify the reasonable risks it poses.”

  68. lilady
    November 9, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    According to Tina Mahoney….

    “Yes I did make this statement, remember I couldn’t resist commenting on the stupidity of this waste of research money. Took you long enough to find one statement made by me and you found on Age of Autism? Must have been the only statement I ever made on this site,…”

    Not quite Tina. Here’s the recent comment you made on Age of Autism, about an autistic 14- year-old who was brutally murdered by his mother and his “godmother”.

    “Miralax has aluminum in it! Aluminum is known to cause constipation! My twin with autism began constipation at 11 days of age. (Exactly 4 days after each injection of aluminum my son backed up! at around 2 months of age put on Soy formula, blood in bowels, after thoroughncheck, no tears, fissures etc. doc said allergy to soy made stomach bleed, found out years later that Soy formula is loaded with aluminum! Later allergy testing revealed no allergy to soy, go figure this one. Doc prescribed Miralax around age 6, gave to and made worse, only seepage of liquid began for first time! The hospital setting is worse place to be for those with allergies, every time I took my chemically sensitive child into a doctor office or hospital setting he would soon present with rash , hives, runny nose etc. Accidentally exposed to latex sheeting during therapy, ( this place of business providing therapy for children had MANY plug in air fresheners caused major sensitization in my child, WTHeck are they thinking?), tried to lick powder off hands, so ingested also. Gave antihistamine called doc to see if they would draw blood to check serum tryptase ( allergist wanted verification that the flushing, hives, all anaphylaxis symptoms were allergy related so wanted serum tryptase) , doc said bring in. So 2.5 hours after contact and antihistamine dose later blood was drawn. Doc called me with results, said was only a little high ( scale 1-10 and child’s was 12), did not even consider the time and antihistamine. Went back to allergist with tryptase results, appointment to possibly check for latex allergy. Put us in a small room where we waited for at least 30 minutes, my son began to have ALL symptoms of anaphylaxis ( hives on chest, red face and ears, cough, runny nose etc), doc came in saw my child and said ” I see child is having anaphylactic type symptoms, I can assure you there is no latex in this office, can’t be latex.” Allergist said he didn’t check for latex allergies there. Thanked him paid him hundreds of dollars for this visit. I just wanted to get my child the heck out of there and into fresh outdoor air, quickly. I had to bite my tongue to keep from going off on this arrogant azz! Reason being, the bus type bench seat, with uncapped metal pipe legs that we sat on had four tennis balls cut open and placed on bottom of seat legs to keep pipes from scratching the floor. Really, no latex in this business? What about the tubing on stethoscope, and other medical equipment used to examine patients? The hospital environment may be provoking this! Be careful of syringes, the little rubber stopper in the syringe is latex.

    Posted by: Tina Mahoney | March 11, 2013 at 10:43 AM”

    This article was one of a series that appeared on Age of Autism, which described how the bio-meddling mothers from Age of Autism and the Canary Party interfered with the care provided to a child in a Chicago hospital.

    Don’t you remember how the disgraced and discredited former medical doctor Andrew Wakefield visited the mentally disturbed mother and the “godmother”, to videotape that young man who was naked except for an adult diaper for a documentary in production at Wakefield’s Autism Media Channel…and put those same vile videotapes on YouTube?

    Have you finally flounced off? You are free to come posting on Orac’s blog, where I’ll be waiting for you.

  69. Narad
    November 9, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    Weird that an adult would stalk other adults for nothing more than self satisfaction of demeaning them.

    Not giving a pass to posturing such as “Hmmm how would anti-vaccine parents have children with vaccine damage claims if they were ANTI-VACCINATION” isn’t “demeaning,” it’s calling to account frank antivaccine remarks including conspiracy and ritual purity from the messenger. Since when do you object to research?

  70. November 9, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    @Narad – I also notice that she has yet to respond to my simple question, to point out what vaccines she is in favor of or where AoA has posted a pro-vaccine article….if she isn’t anti-vaccine, it should be easy, right?

  71. bepatienz
    November 9, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    Anne Dachel, the “media editor” for a crank anti-vaccine website, repeatedly illustrates how difficult it is to evaluate the evidence regarding a complex scientific question if, with respect to science, you can’t find your butt with either or both hands.

    Dachel is so profoundly ignorant that she cannot even grasp that her posts routinely undermine her anti-vacccine position. My favorite examples (she’s posted essentially the same misinformation scores of perhaps hundreds of times) concern the nonsensical claim that “a stunning report from Pace Law School revealed that for years, parents have won vaccine damage suits resulting in autism in federal court, all the while the government denied doing so” Dachel (and the equally clueless authors of that report) have ignored the clear evidence that children who develop seizure disorders with autistic symptoms following months of apparently normal development due so not because of any temporally-connected vaccines but because they have pre-existing mutations that have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccination and which cause the same syndrome in children who have not been recently vaccinated, just as those mutations cause similar syndromes in unvaccinated laboratory animals. Honestly, her posts fairly scream that she does not, or cannot, or will not read the scientific literature that emphatically refute her claims.

  72. Paul S
    November 10, 2013 at 12:00 am

    Corruption in the approval process of Medications and Vaccines!

    Many of those posting on this board assume that medication and/or vaccine once approved by the responsible government oversight agency has been proven safe for use by the public. But when one looks at the process of approval and the people actually performing the task of oversite of the approval process, it is shocking to find they are financially tethered to the companies they are overseeing. It is a system frought with personnel having covered over and undisclosed “CONFLICTS OF INTEREST” . Yes ten’s of thousands of children have been damaged by vaccine and medications that have been approved and brought to market prematurely.

    Conflict Of Interest At Gov’t Health Agencies 13 April 2005
    The intermingling of loyalty of the scientist working simultaneously for Government agencies overseeing the development test and approval of a new vaccine or medication while simultaneously working for and on the payroll of the company they are overseeing is really scary. How can we the public trust anything these agencies say as assurance that the product will “DO NO HARM” Paul S

    Stealth Merger: Drug Companies and Medical Research at NIH – LAT 7 Dec 2003 http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/03/12/07.php

    Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Policy Making Majority Staff Report Committee on Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives June 15, 2000 http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html
    Section I Introduction
    Section II Laws and Regulations
    Section III The Rotavirus and the Rotashield Vaccine
    Section IV Food and Drug Administration Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC)
    A. Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee
    B. Conflict of Interest Review and Waivers by the FDA
    Section V Centers for Disease Control and Prevention The Advisory Committee on Immunizations Practices (ACIP)
    A. Practices and Procedures of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)
    B. The ACIP Conflicts of Interest Resolution Process
    C. Problems Identified During the Committee’s Investigation
    Section VI Recommendations

    FACA: CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND VACCINE DEVELOPMENT–PRESERVING THE
    INTEGRITY OF THE PROCESS

    =======================================================================

    HEARING

    before the

    COMMITTEE ON
    GOVERNMENT REFORM

    HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

    SECOND SESSION

    __________

    JUNE 15, 2000

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-106hhrg73042/html/CHRG-106hhrg73042.htm

    The whole medication/vaccine system of insurance of “DO NO HARM” is built on a swamp!!! If the approval process is corrupted: How can the layman have any trust????

  73. Narad
    November 10, 2013 at 12:43 am

    Short version: “in the law’s eyes, an unavoidably unsafe product is not a “super-dangerous” product. Quite the opposite, an unavoidably unsafe product is a product whose tremendous benefits justify the reasonable risks it poses.”

    Indeed. One might wonder what theory someone like Tina imagines proceeding under in a design-defect claim. Given that her stated position is that “inject[ing] these chemicals into children should” lead to being “charged with crimes against nature,” anything involving a reasonable alternative design (RAD) seems to be foreclosed, leaving consumer expectation and risk-utility without RAD. The former essentially collapses into the latter by virtue of the subject matter — what is the ordinary consumer to expect other than reasonable care? — and the risk-utility analysis is either a matter of historical record or in all likelihood set out in exquisite detail for a product that’s new to market.

    And this is without even the small matter of causation.

    Maurine is more clear, although she undermines NCVIA’s having anything to do with much of anything: For her, the product is just a monolithic proxy for the shadowy forces behind it. The fact that negligence is harder to prove apparently hasn’t dawned over Augusta yet.

  74. novalox
    November 10, 2013 at 1:00 am

    I see that tina has stuck the flounce, which means that she admits that she cannot come up with any article that can answer Lawrence’s question.

    But then again, what would you expect from an anti-vax liar?

  75. reissd
    November 10, 2013 at 1:40 am

    @Narad: I’m not sure, by the way, that negligence is actually preempted under Bruesewitz. But as you pointed out, proving negligence against the manufacturers would be very, very hard in the vaccine context, given the way vaccines arrive on the market.
    Maybe Maurine has section 310-311 of the Restatement (Second) of Torts in mind, misrepresentation that causes bodily harm. There too, of course, the proof issues will be dramatic. And it has hardly been applied at all in medical contexts.

    I’ve been considering the application of that restatement to anti-vaccine organizations and their propaganda. I.e., whether someone who did not vaccinate because of their claims and whose child was harmed by a VPD can sue. Of course, it runs into some problems – free speech issues, agency issues, and how to draw a principled line that won’t make it applicable to legitimate medical treatments. But it’s something to think about.

  76. Narad
    November 10, 2013 at 1:47 am

    It is a system frought with personnel having covered over and undisclosed “CONFLICTS OF INTEREST” .

    Mr. Shapiro, given that this seems to essentially be a routine hit-and-run post for you, I’ll merely observe that it’s hard to take a Wakefield defender seriously when he starts shouting about undisclosed conflicts of interest.

  77. November 10, 2013 at 4:01 am

    It is the most corrupt and non caring, governmental system that’s ever existed. It was written
    just to shield the Manufacturer’s from the lawsuits from Vaccine damaged American children.

    It’s supposed to be, a non adversarial no fault system. The fact is, that it’s a program that has no real science. At all! to prove vaccine safety. Yet, they win almost all the cases. No science! and yet they always win. They have stacked the deck,with fake fraudulent study’s. Here’s where you see, just how corrupt they are. They have been, and continue to use the combating Autism act funds. To fund, their fraud!

    The combating Autism act, was created,by Congress. They said, to the US CDC;

    “find us a treatment or if possible a cure”

    The CDC contacts Poul Thorsen, they told him when offering him an 11 million plus dollar contract. “we are only interested, in what will exonerate the CDC and vaccines”

    Why wouldn’t they won’t the truth? Because they, knew the truth.

    Their vaccine program, is the reason you need Obama care. You have the children, being sickened by vaccines. Thus causing, chronic diseases and children who are allergic to almost everything.

    Sick children, then grow up to be sick Adults. Now HHS, and the CDC want’s you to spend
    the cost of 3 to 4 car payments (NEW CAR PAYMENTS)! a month for health care.

    Where are the hearings, on why this Nations people are so sick? That their expected to pay between 900.00 to 1800.00 Dollars a month for something a few decades ago was not needed.

    While the useful Idiots (what the Russians call, the US media) try to convince the American people that their getting healthier.

    Integrity is all but gone, in the medical community and the media. They have almost all, sold their souls to the Pharmaceutical Co’s.

  78. November 10, 2013 at 8:11 am

    @Joe – any evidence to back up that rant (I know, I know, he won’t have any, but I have to ask)?

  79. November 10, 2013 at 9:34 am

    I’m loving this comment thread. It is the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the anti-vaccine approach to public policy. They use lies, misinformation, innuendo, and spam, lots of spam. I mean, my God, the Dachelbot posted, what, 10 comments already? And then, because she’s obviously copying and pasting, the posts in her own comment, under her own name, that she’s Anne Dachel, media editor of some blog. Because we must be blind to her name and avatar on her comments, I guess?

    We have all of the anti-vaccine talking points here: Too many too soon, toxic gambit, appeal to popularity, appeal to authority, pharma shill gambit. Where’s Jake Crosby and his accusations of conflicts of interest? Or JB Handley accusing one of us, or all of us, of being Bonnie Offit?

    Where are the religious nuts promising a day of reckoning for scientists?

    Great job detailing all this, Dorit. I wish I could have been there, but I’ve already made arrangements to go on December 4th to their hearing. I’d love to shake the hands of the anti-vaccine crowd.

  80. lilady
    November 10, 2013 at 10:08 am

    “We have all of the anti-vaccine talking points here: Too many too soon, toxic gambit, appeal to popularity, appeal to authority, pharma shill gambit. Where’s Jake Crosby and his accusations of conflicts of interest? Or JB Handley accusing one of us, or all of us, of being Bonnie Offit?

    Where are the religious nuts promising a day of reckoning for scientists?”

    Patience Epi Ren, patience.

  81. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 10, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Tina Mahoney :
    Is this fact enough for you? You and those that inject these chemicals into children should be charged with crimes against nature! Fear mongering is what you do to scare parents into injecting this crap into their children. I had measles, chicken pox and mumps as a child in the 60′s, when children still contracted the transient illnesses naturally. I never heard of any child dying from these. Infant mortality rat was low and childhood cancer, developmental disability, autoimmune disease, childhood diabetes was VERY rare in adults and unheard of in children. Why do you think our kids are sicker and dying at younger ages than ever in history? Maureen is right. Crawl out from under your cok and check FDA drug recalls and death by pharmaceuticals. Suppose your some of the parents that place your young children on psychotropic drugs also. I want protections in place and make pharmaceuticals manufacturers liable for loss of life due to their products. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf
    http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Zdravlje/excipient-table-2.pdf

    “. I never heard of any child dying from these.”

    Why post a statement that shows you do no research? Check any news source from the day and you will see a great deal of discussion of deaths from measles.

    Time Magazine, 1960. Medicine: Men Against Measles

    In the comic strips, measles is a joke. In much of the world the disease is treated lightly, partly from ignorance, partly because it is an almost certain incident of growing up. But measles is, in fact, all too often a killer or the cause of mental crippling.

    From 1970

    Regular measles is back . . . This could happen to your child: death . . . brain damage . . . blindness . . . deafness . .

    I could go on and on.

    Why do we not hear from the people who died from these diseases in the past. It’s not a trick question. But so many people post, “I got these diseases and I’m OK”. Think before you write

    “check FDA drug recalls and death by pharmaceuticals”

    How many of those recalls involve vaccines? Let’s see, about 15 years ago a vaccine lost it’s license, quickly. So, let’s drop the guilt by association and stick to facts.

  82. Chris
    November 10, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Ms. Dachel, Ms. Mahoney and Mr. Harris, did you all get an invitation to the Cayman Islands last August?

  83. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 10, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Tina Mahoney :
    Oh my I see that David Gorski was here commenting earlier. Sorry… Didn’t mean to blow your cover Orac. Quit hiding behind alias come out of the closet David it’s OK.

    Don’t worry, you didn’t “blow anyone’s cover”. The whole “I know who’s behind Orac thing is very 2005.”

  84. Chris
    November 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Indeed, Sully, the only reason it is not mentioned on Respectful Insolence is to see how long someone who makes the claim he is hiding behind a ‘nym figures it out.

  85. November 10, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    What’s amazing is, that you claim the CDC has the good quality sound robust scientific evidence. Proving, the safety of Vaccines and that they don’t cause Autism.

    You pretend, that the NIH’s NIEHS (the environmental side of the NIH) did not evaluate the VSD studies. And delivered, what could be considered a dead on nuclear blast on what actual evidence that the CDC really had and has to date. The lead researchers findings, were that all the large population based VSD studies were in her words “en-effect useless”
    She expanded on that, by saying that they were riddled full of design flaws rendering them
    en-effect useless. She then said,as bad as they were . They were an improvement over the other two the two Denmark studies. FYI, the NIEHS researcher,declared that the Denmark studies were worse than useless. Year’s, before his indictment for allegedly stealing almost 2 million dollars from (combating autism act funds) She finished them off
    by saying, “that leaves the CDC with very little to say, that vaccines and Autism are not connected in anyway.

    The CDC Dir. was asked by Congress, to defend her environmental science that was done in the VSD. The CDC’s Dir.reply was “CDC concurs to the findings”

    She did, add 2 more shocking statements. Statements, that should have and would have been. Earth shattering!admissions. If the Media, was not corrupt,as it is.

    CDC Dir.Gerberding “we will not be using the VSD anymore, to look at vaccines as a cause for Autism environmental” She said ” to do so, would be potentially misleading ”

    She then shocked them, with this statement. That by it’s self, puts the last nail in their Vaccines do not cause Autism coffin.

    “but if you do give us more time we will do good quality studies”

    Here is another reason, that the VSD studies should never have been trusted. Since the sitting President GW Bushes decision. When we got hit at 9-11, to seal the VSD forever!
    Form we the people.

    You want me to believe, that the CDC has good quality studies done in the VSD. When the president of the US. GW Bush tried to seal them forever???????

    Common sense dictates,one does not seal ones proof that vaccines are safe. Common sense also dictates,that if one wants to hide incriminating evidence. One might decide to seal, the VSD forever! GW at the time, had 3 people working in his White house ex executives. From Lilly Pharmaceuticals, who BTW is the creator and patent holder of the Mercury based preservative used in almost all children’s vaccines (except the MMR)

    GW’s dad, Bush senior,was on the board of Lilly in the 70’s. Anybody want to make a wager, his decision to seal the VSD forever. Was made, to protect many Golden Retirement Parachutes? Including his own!

    But again, we are working with people who are guilty of injecting a known IQ lowering neural-toxin in our American children all the way up to 2002. With an expiration date of 2004.

    Considering the FDA removed it from pet vaccines in 1990 (because it Thimerosal was causing Neurological damage in dogs) Proves,that we are not working with people that
    have any common sense.

  86. November 10, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    Lilady said, “Andrew Wakefield visited the mentally disturbed mother and the “godmother”, to videotape that young man who was naked except for an adult diaper ”

    The results of that child’s Pill cam were profound. He had inflammation, all through his bowels. While the Hospital was sure he was just crazy,the conformation was he was suffering greatly.

    You people defending this stupidity, of injecting heavy metals and toxins that cannot be legally be flushed into the sewer.

    There really,is no words to describe how sick and in human you are.

  87. Chris
    November 10, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    Mr. Harris: “You want me to believe,”

    Actually, sir, we just don’t believe you. You are just making a bunch of accusations, and not providing any actual evidence. For example: “You people defending this stupidity, of injecting heavy metals and toxins that cannot be legally be flushed into the sewer.” That is solid proof you are just making stuff up.

  88. lilady
    November 10, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    Joe Harris…You are defending the disgraced and discredited former medical doctor Andrew Wakefield, the bio-meddlers and the murderers of an autistic child.

    Wakefield owns the right to all the videotape that was shot showing that poor child buck naked except for an adult diaper that covered his genitalia…a form of kiddie porn. That kiddie porn videotape was shown on network TV and put on YouTube…and you’re okay with that, eh?

  89. Chris
    November 10, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    Mr. Harris: “There really,is no words to describe how sick and in human you are.”

    Funny coming from someone who once harassed a reporter because, to quote you: “Injoy bugging her.”. You are one campaigning for the return of measles, pertussis, Hib, rotavirus, mumps and other nasty diseases.

  90. November 10, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    @Joe – despite your very rudimentary grasp of the English language, I believe you were trying to spin some kind of grand conspiracy theory there (I think, it was very hard to decipher your broken dialect).

    Unfortunately for you, your claims are easily refuted with basic Science and the facts that we have before us…..you should try harder next time.

  91. November 10, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    You cannot legally dump, Mercury of any kind into the sewer. That’s the Law!

    Think about this, the least toxic Mercury is elemental. That’s what is in thermometers, if a nurse breaks a thermometer in school. They evacuate, the school. That’s a fact!

    Yet the FDA sanctions,and the CDC and the AAP Highly recommends. Very strongly. No! demands, that children be given flu vaccines. That have an injected form of Mercury, that an NIH paid study revealed . Has the express ability, to cross the BBB easier than does the fish Mercury.

    CDC’s own words, “Mercury in all it’s forms is toxic! ” The NIH, cleaned up their campuses
    of all Mercury. They specifically,mentioned that Thimerosal was extremely Toxic. And that
    it needed to be removed from the NIH campuses. ASAP without fail! They even hired themselves, a damn Mascot. To help motivate,their employees.

    To Toxic for the NIH,but according to the CDC FDA and the AAP it’s extremely safe for injecting into children within hours of the first breath of life. That’s,careless disregard
    for the very children. That the NIH, was en-trusted with protecting.

    Do you, really want to keep defending the premeditated poisoning of our most precious resource.

    Do you not see, how insanely ridiculous you look. Defending, the insanity of injecting a known IQ lowering neural-toxin into children?

    Formaldehyde,according to the CDC ” there’s absolutely no safe levels what so ever” None!

    They are in, vaccines.

    The CDC’s words, pertaining to heavy metals. There is no! safe levels of heavy metals.

    There still in, the vaccines.

  92. novalox
    November 10, 2013 at 9:38 pm

    @joe

    [citation needed], within 3 posts, or we can all assume that you are making stuff up and are lying to us.

  93. November 10, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    You said:

    “Wakefield owns the right to all the videotape that was shot showing that poor child buck naked except for an adult diaper that covered his genitalia…a form of kiddie porn. That kiddie porn videotape was shown on network TV and put on YouTube…and you’re okay
    with that, eh?”

    The fact that the hospital Idiots, did not listen to the parent. When she told them, that her child was suffering in his Gut. Horribly! Is the worse form. of total incompetence. That is,
    till you learn. That, they were treating him, with anti psychotics for his extreme pain in his Gut. As he was strapped down, to the bed and covered with only a diaper.

    That denotes,criminal behavior. If the child was treated, for what was wrong by a competent
    GI doctor. The out come, would not be a mother pushed over the edge of sanity. And the child,would still be alive. So in a way, they should be held responsible for his death. .

  94. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 10, 2013 at 11:42 pm

    Anne Dachel :
    CBS News ran this story about Hannah Poling in 2010: Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award. Are we to believe that vaccines have nothing to do with autism–unless you’re Hannah Poling?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html
    Medical experts at HHS examined the evidence showing that vaccines caused her autism and they agreed. They conceded her case was valid.
    Many say that Hannah Poling had a pre-existing condition that predisposed her to developing autism as a result of vaccination. No one knows how “rare” this is. What if the rate of this pre-existing condiiton is one in 50?
    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

    I remember that. CBS wrote that a week after I broke the story. The thing is, Attkisson added the “vaccine-autism court award” part. It’s not part of the facts of the story.

    Minor point, it wasn’t a court-award. It was a concession and a settlement. The court didn’t award the family anything. I’ve made the same mistake at times. Then again, I’m not a highly paid journalist.

    Major point: the concession wasn’t about autism. The HHS team cited Hannah Poling’s own neurologist that the injury was an aggravation of a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder. HHS made it clear–and I know you are aware of this–that they didn’t concede autism. You recall (and I’ve reminded you) that the HRSA website showed a clear disclaimer that they have never conceded that vaccines cause autism. But you change the facts. If my kid did I’d give a lecture about lying. If you have to stoop like this to make your point, what does that tell you? I know what it tells me. I

    Here’s a quote you might consider:

    “However, to this day there has been no studies that conclusively prove vaccines are associated with autism. ”

    –Jon Poling
    (it’s on his website right now)

    “No one knows how “rare” this is”

    Richard Kelley, who diagnosed Hannah Poling, stated in a conference talk that the condition is rare. So “No one knows” seems a bit misleading.

  95. lilady
    November 11, 2013 at 12:23 am

    Joe Harris:

    The mother, the godmother, the bio-meddlers and Wakefield are not medical doctors.

    Why didn’t the murderers take the young man out of the hospital, if the care was substandard?

    Why did the bio-meddlers drive with him and his murderers to New York from Chicago to see Wakefield’s pal Dr. Krigsman?

    Where are the pictures taken during the endoscopy and colonoscopy that Krigsman performed, instead of the poor quality pictures that was purportedly taken by the pill cam?

    If there were abnormal findings, why didn’t Krigsman provide treatment?

    Why did Wakefield and the bio-meddlers abandon the mother and “godmother”, once they returned to Chicago and once they had enough videotape for Wakefield’s documentary

    The murderers planned the murder for one week, prior to the time when they overdosed him and then took turns plunging a butcher’s repeatedly into the boy. They have been indicted on premeditated murder charges, based on their statements.

    We know that you are a science illiterate. You’ve just confirmed for us that you are a cold, uncaring, vile man who defends child murderers. I feel dirty, just reading your rants.

  96. novalox
    November 11, 2013 at 12:34 am

    @joe

    Strike 1.

  97. Chris
    November 11, 2013 at 1:08 am

    Mr. Harris:

    Mercury of any kind into the sewer.

    Please tell us which vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Which, by the way, is not elemental mercury.

  98. November 11, 2013 at 4:14 am

    You want to talk murders? One phone call from AS, and all the selflessly donated Autistic brains that were dispersed through the brain bank. Are all rounded up, and then put into one freezer. With 3 fail-safes. They all fail, in one night . And all that autopsied brain matter,that was telling the truth of what they were finding in them. Was, silenced.

    In-fact, it was a report from Harvard just prior.That said, the autopsied brains were revealing that there was Mercury being found in them. They went on to explain, that the Mercury was causing oxidative stress. And that, was contributing to the behavior in the Autistic.

    So just like the Hero, Dr.Wakefield had to be silenced Those autopsied brains, that was telling a very unpopular inconvenient truth. They, had to be silenced also.

    All 3 fail safes fail, problem solved! The people who run the brain bank, say that they cannot rule out foul play. Putting that in terms you might understand, they were saying. That they cannot rule out, that it was done on purpose!

    Why would AS be involved in a cover up? Because GE, Bob Wrights parent Co. of NBC has a vested interest in Thimerosal. Heavily invested Golden Retirement Parachutes, would turn into lead over night. If the Co’s involved in this scandal, were ordered to have to pay for all the Thimerosal damage.

    As it is, the NVICP has abandoned their responsibility. And laid them, at the feet of the Tax payers. To pay for all of that, long term care cost. 6 million ea.

    Thomas Insel head of the IACC said, “this is a real increase,how we prepare a Nation for 1 million who may need significant amounts of services” He said that,80% are under the age
    of 18. And they are working their way through the system,like a wave!

  99. November 11, 2013 at 4:28 am

    You could not understand, what I said about elemental Mercury being the least Toxic?

    In other words, if the least Toxic mercury is dropped and leaves the confinement of the thermometer. A whole school, has to be evacuated. Yet,a known IQ lowering neural –
    Toxin.That’s injected into children, within hours of the first breath of life. Is considered safe????? ,

  100. November 11, 2013 at 5:23 am

    The CDC NVICP, paid the Polings illegally. According to the special master, in my sons case. She told us, if we had filed a week earlier. They would have had to pay, for my
    sons injury’s. Under exacerbation. But she said, that was under the old law. The new
    law, does not pay for exacerbation. She said that ship had sailed! I guess it, sailed back
    in port. For the fact is, that Hannah was paid for an existing Mitochondria problem that was made worse by the 9 vaccines.

    They broke, precedent : Definition of A precedent is something that sets a standard for future events. They paid the Polings, for what they said they could not pay my son for.

    THAT SHIP, THEY TOLD ME HAD ALREADY SAILED!

    The Pollings professional witness,had ruled weeks before on a child with the exact same bio markers as Hannah. That the vaccines, couldn’t have been responsible for his injury.

    Weeks after his assessment for the NVICP, on that child. He assesses Dr. Polings daughter Hannah. And says, just the opposite. Her vaccines were responsible.

    Why the change? Dr. Poling was a close friend from collage.

    So rather, than to suffer the embarrassment of the the reversal. They decided to pay the
    Poling’s daughter quietly. 20 million to be exact! Then they tried to seal all the records of that payment forever!

    So it appears that my son should have been paid all along? Could one of you very knowledgeable, skeptics look into that for me?

    Was there a change in the law in the 90’s? where they stopped paying on underlying neurological problems. If not she was lying to me, and they owe my son.

    If so, they still owe my son. For they paid a child, for something they said had been expired.

    It appears,that they make up the NVICP rules as they go. .

  101. November 11, 2013 at 5:51 am

    You said: The HHS team cited Hannah Poling’s own neurologist that the injury was an aggravation of a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder. HHS made it clear–and I know you are aware of this–that they didn’t concede autism. You recall (and I’ve reminded you) that the HRSA website showed a clear disclaimer that they have never conceded that vaccines cause autism”

    That’s not all true, the CDC Dir. Gerberding said that you cannot compare Hannah to other children that have Autism. She had a very rare Mitochondria problem, that caused her to get Autism like symptoms???????? If one has the symptoms of Autism,they have Autism.

    The CDC’s Dir lied to the American public,the CDC was told just prior to her telling the public that Mitochondria problems are very rare. That Mitochondria problems, are not rare at all.
    In fact, 1 in 50 may have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria problems. So the possibilities, for
    Autism then are staggering. It appears he was right! The rates just hit, 1 in 50 children now has Autism.

    This sacrificing of the American children,on the vaccine alter. Has, become a National disgrace..

  102. November 11, 2013 at 8:39 am

    Mr. Harris, please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    Again, you make blatant accusations without evidence. We have no reason to believe you.

  103. November 11, 2013 at 9:24 am

    @Chris – because Mr. Harris has shown to have a complete lack of education about basic chemistry and biology, I doubt he will understand your question.

  104. Gray Falcon
    November 11, 2013 at 9:54 am

    Mr. Harris claimed Poul Thorsen played a major part in research. Anyone who does that is either ignorant, a liar, or a lying ignoramus.

  105. lj-tan@comcast.net
    November 11, 2013 at 10:32 am

    Thank you Dorit for an elegant and scientifically accurate post on the VICP, its benefits, and its incredible role in our society in ensuring that one of the most important public health achievements in history – immunizations – are safe and effective, and available. Most important, thank you for reminding all of us that the fundamental flaw in the arguments that have been made against the VICP and vaccines in general by the Canary Party is that they rely on the disproven allegation that vaccines cause autism and other neurological deficits. This has now been countered by multiple scientific studies.

  106. November 11, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    ECBT has extensive info on the Omnibus Trials which is the heart of the issue..vaccines do not cause autism and therefore one can’t be compensated by VICP for autism. The theory had it’s time in court and the judges made a thorough and thoughtful decision. There is no need to dismantle a program that has helped compensate those who experience rare but real harm from vaccines http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/safe/autism/omnibus_proceeding_info.cfm

  107. November 11, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    Parents, notice how they just call names. They don’t pick apart, what my content was in my post. They just call names, What I put out there, is easily verifiable and accurate. You don’t know,how much I want to believe that they did not do this to my son. But facts are facts, they are trapped by what they have written in their own FOIA emails.

    The MSDS of Thimerosal when compared to the vaccine schedule. Gives a complete story,
    of their mistake.

    #1 “thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body in-particular the brain and the lining around the brain”. The CDC claims, thimerosal does not accumulate in
    the child’s body. It appears by the makers own words ,their scientist disagrees with the CDC
    CDC claims it does not cross the BBB, the maker is at odds with them on that to. Because, the MSDS says, “thimerosal targets the brain and the lining around the brain” I assume you have to enter the brain, in order to target the brain, and the lining around the brain. An NIH paid study, by Dr.Burbacher on baby primates revealed. That the preservative thimerosal, has the unique,ability. To cross the BBB, easier than does the fish mercury.

    #2 “thimerosal is never supposed to be mixed with aluminum” Aluminum, is in almost all children’s vaccines as a catalyst. The reason the maker of thimerosal warned not to mix
    thimerosal with aluminum was.That the toxicity, grows by 10 to 100 times the original toxicity
    when the two salts are mixed. That’s in their MSDS, under the re-activity data. The Idiots in so called vaccine safety, did not heed that very clear! and dire warning.

    #3 “thimerosal is a mutagenic” the MSDS states. That means, that thimerosal has the express ability to mutate our children’s genes. So, thimerosal, has the ability to change
    our children’s genetic make up. That’s what they are so foolishly bragging about,that
    they have found in our kids. Mutated genes, thimerosal by design does that!

    #4 “if you are exposed to thimerosal,any future exposures to mercury may cause you to be susceptible to mercury poisoning” The CDC and the AAP says, that thimerosal does not cause children to be mercury poisoned. The maker is at odds with the CDC and the AAP on this one also. In fact, their incompetence of not heeding this warning. Has set the stage for the perfect storm, for any future vaccines.Or anything else, containing Mercury.To cause
    the children to succumb to mercury toxicity.

    #5 “pregnant women according to their own MSDS is never! supposed to be exposed to the preservative thimerosal. That warning also, was not clear enough for them. In fact,they ignored it. And began, injecting pregnant women with thimerosal in two forms the flu and the Rhogam. In a meeting of the minds, when they found out that they had poisoned what could be a generation of American children. They discussed that you would not ever want to go any earlier with the thimerosal that the Hep-b at birth. For their study’s show, that if you did you would most definitely get more what they called outcomes. They were speaking of, ADD ADHD Speech-delay and the big elephant that’s in the room. Autism. By going earlier,by not heeding that warning.

    They have put in place, the mechanism by which children can be born with Autism.

    Here’s the whole MSDS warning, concerning Pregnant women being exposed to thimerosal.

    “pregnant women are never supposed to be exposed to thimerosal, for it can cross the placenta and go into the baby and cause mild to severe mental retardation”

    In 1948 the AMA suspected, that thimerosal was bad news. So they the AMA, had commissioned the first non bias research studies that were ever done on thimerosal.

    Dr Frank Engley was the lead researcher. His words were, that thimerosal was toxic down to one one millionth of a gram. He took the time to say, “and that’s about as toxic as it gets” “and it must be removed from everything it’s in, all the way down to over the counter topical use”

    He also shared “it does not work very well, as a anti-microbial” So that means, that the US. children were put in harms way. For as Dr Engley states “a minimal benefit at best”

    He sites past failures, and we know that Chiron pharmaceuticals. Because of contamination had to destroy over half of their flu vaccines because” in a US. Representatives own words.

    “Thimerosal could not even kill, the easiest to kill microbe”

    Dr. Engley’s work, is in two journals including the AMA own. After all, they paid him for the research! Question, why won’t the AMA speak up for children who cannot. They are not, the caring organization they once were. Corruption has, taken over.

    In 1982, that Blue ribbon panel met again to give another warning. That thimerosal was very toxic down, to one one millionth of a gram. And, it must! be removed, they echoed! For the second time. Dr Engley just before he died in the 90’s said;

    “if they listened and followed through on our 82 report,the vaccines would have been freed from thimerosal and they tell me all this Autism would have never occurred”

    “But sadly, it did occur”

    The FDA has dropped the ball so many times on this,how the Congress allows them to keep operating. Is a wonder, in it’s self.

    If they had heeded the warning in 82, the autism was 1 in 10,000 that had Autism.
    Today, because of their inability to heed any warnings. Even, when from the manufacturer? The rate is now, at 1 in 50 children with 1 in 31 being boys.

    Did the FDA know? Yes !FDA FOIA emails damn them.

    “were afraid the public will perceive,us asleep at the switch for decades for allowing this dangerous compound to remain in the vaccines” One of the warnings, that was not heeded by the FDA. Was, that dogs being injected with vaccines containing thimerosal
    were getting neurological damage. So the compassionate FDA,had it removed from all pet vaccines in 1990. Problem is, that they left it being injected into American children
    till 2002 with an expiration date of 2004??????? Are they insane! No,just corrupt to the core!

    “and it’s no longer going to wash, that there’s no evidence of a risk” They appear to be getting worried they screwed the pooch on this one. And that the evidence. it was piling up against them!

    Here the CDC chimes in, on just how stupid these people we trusted. Really are.

    CDC email received through the FOIA act. “how could the FDA approve a preservative
    without knowing how much mercury it contained” ?????

    “this was not rocket science,it was ninth grade math” He was speaking of the FDA’s incredible inability, to perform even the easiest math in adding up the mercury that BTW was adding up to as in the dogs neurological damage by mercury poisoning.

    He wasn’t right though,it was not ninth grade math. That he said, they were not able to perform. It was simple second grade, addition in the state of TX.

    Here is one of their Hero’s, the vaccinologist Dr.Neil Halsey’s own words back to haunt him.

    “truth is, no one did the calculations”

    Here’s the meeting, that they all went to. To discuss. the the possible mass poisoning of our most precious resource. You will find,that our children’s welfare wasn’t even on their
    radar. Just the fact, that they would be buried in real court. Against, a vaccine damaged American child.

    Dr.Brent pg 229 on the Simpson wood meeting minutes. Said;

    If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”

    He had no! concern what so ever. For the children. that his and their incompetence had possibly damaged. Just the fact, that with the current research of that day. The fact is they knew, it would bury them in a real court!

    Those at the Simpson wood, and the IOM meetings,should be charged with conspiracy
    to cover up. For they met with the Vaccine makers, to conspire against the American people.

    US.Congressman Dan Burton of Indiana, said on National TV “i’m calling for anybody who knew about the dangers of thimerosal, and did nothing to protect the American children to have criminal charges drawn against them”He didn’t know at that time, what he was asking for. Would have sent people, from the FDA CDC AAP IOM WHO AMA and some of his own colleagues and a sitting president and even Dr Neil Halsey him self to prison.

    So just using their own FOIA emails, and the Manufacturer’s MSDS. One could not lose in a real court, with a jury. In fact, the awards would be in the billions.

    Dr Neil Halsey said, if this happened, They should compensate the parents, but he said how do you put a value on that?

    Here are some excerpts, The F.D.A. team’s conclusions were frightening. Vaccines added under Halsey’s watch had tripled the dose of mercury that infants got in their first few months of life. As many as 30 million American children may have been exposed to mercury in excess of Environmental Protection Agency guidelines — levels of mercury that, in theory, could have killed enough brain cells to scramble thinking or hex behavior.

    ”My first reaction was simply disbelief, which was the reaction of almost everybody involved in vaccines,” Halsey says. ”In most vaccine containers, thimerosal is listed as a mercury derivative, a hundredth of a percent. And what I believed, and what everybody else believed, was that it was truly a trace, a biologically insignificant amount. My honest belief is that if the labels had had the mercury content in micrograms, this would have been uncovered years ago. But the fact is, no one did the calculation.”

    Within days after this interview, Dr. Halsey was threatened back into line. He tried to say I was not talking about Autism. There is, only one thing, that could be considered bad enough. That Dr.Halsey would have said;

    ” If there is damage, he says, ”there should be some kind of compensation, though I don’t know how.” He pauses, and sighs. ”I empathize with families of children with these disorders. How are you going to put dollar values on that?”

    Dr. Halsey,how do you put a dollar value on having to watch your child lose all his once learned skills? And then watch him suffer in pain, screaming and beating his head against the wall? Like I said, the they knew they would lose BIG! in a real court.

    The awards would be in the billions! So the supreme court was called upon to intervene and say “since vaccines are so unavoidably unsafe,they cannot allow the vaccine injured to sue the vaccine makers”

    There is a court, in which justice is exact! The children will have their day in court, it will be a court that cannot be manipulated or bought. And the Judge, he is righteous & Just.

  108. November 11, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    I’m not seeing a whole lot of citations there….just a long list of anti-vaccine talking points….oh yeah, and which vaccines on the current pediatric schedule are available only with Thimerasol?

  109. novalox
    November 11, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    @joe

    Strike 2 and 3 yer out.

    Since you cannot provide any actual citations for your little screeds, we must assume that anything you say is a lie.

    So again, thank you for admitting that Lawrence and Chris are right and you are wrong.

  110. Cindy Lewis
    November 11, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Thank you for posting your information Joe.

  111. November 11, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Everything ECBT is,is paid for by the pharmaceutical industry. BTW, that makes vaccines.

    No conflict here.

  112. November 11, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    @Joe – any real evidence or citations? And I, for one, have no conflicts other than trying to keep my kids (and everyone else’ kids) safe from preventable diseases……

  113. novalox
    November 11, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    @joe

    Again, thanks for admitting that you do have a COI, and that there is no COI between ECBT and the pharmaceutical industry.

    You’ve been proven a liar, why should we believe anything you say is the truth?

    @cindy

    Why would you believe someone that posts such useless information, unless you are also an anti-vax liar?

  114. Chris
    November 11, 2013 at 6:38 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Parents, notice how they just call names. They don’t pick apart, what my content was in my post.”

    Exactly how is asking you a question “name calling”? Please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Do not include the influenza vaccine because of the eight approved for children do not have any thimerosal.

    Mr. Harris: “Everything ECBT is,is paid for by the pharmaceutical industry. BTW, that makes vaccines.”

    Wales had a measles outbreak with over a thousand cases, about one in ten affected required hospital care. Most likely the kids needed to be in the hospital to deal with pneumonia, which means being put on equipment to help them breath. That is very expensive, and it is quite unpleasant to have a tube shoved down your throat to provide oxygen to the affected lungs.

    Please provide the economic data showing it is more cost affective to let each and every child get measles like what happened before there was a measles vaccine, with about one out of ten needing hospital care, and about one in one to three thousand end up dead… plus several more being permanently disabled. Instead of your rants, please provide actual verifiable evidence like the following:

    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

    And from a previous comment of yours, Mr. Harris: “So just like the Hero, Dr.Wakefield had to be silenced Those autopsied brains, that was telling a very unpopular inconvenient truth. They, had to be silenced also.”

    The MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn mumps component was introduced in the USA in 1971, and was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program. It has never contained thimerosal, nor aluminum. The USA is a much bigger country than the UK, and had been using the MMR vaccine for over two decades before Wakefield came on to the scene (whose 1998 paper was only a decade after the UK introduced three MMR vaccines). If autism was associated with the MMR vaccine, then it would have been noticed in a much larger country that had been using it much longer than where Wakefield lived/worked.

    Mr. Harris, please provide the verifiable evidence dated before 1990 that there was a sharp increase in autism in the USA coincident to the use of the American MMR vaccine. This would provide the evidence to show Wakefield had actual data to make his hypothesis, instead of the wad of UK taxpayer cash from the Legal Aid Funds given to him by Richard Barr.

  115. lilady
    November 11, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    No Conflicts of Interest here…just a retired public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist who actually cared for infants and children harmed by vaccine-preventable-diseases…and who investigated individual cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases.

    No Conflicts of Interest here…even though my son was born with a rare genetic disorder which caused “autistic-like behaviors” not autism.

  116. November 11, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Rolf Hazlehurst On VICP at Congressional Briefing – AGE OF AUTISM

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/11/rolf-hazlehurst-on-vicp-at-congressional-briefing.html

  117. November 11, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    Mr. Hazlehurst’s views are addressed in this post. His bitterness at not being compensated is understandable, but there is no evidence of government misconduct and his claims were thoroughly discussed by the special master before being dismissed. There was no evidence the vaccine caused his child’s condition.

  118. lilady
    November 11, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    Big deal Anne. Imagine that…a parent who failed (twice) to prove that his child’s autism was caused by vaccines, being involved in this bogus Congressional hearing “briefing”.

  119. Chris
    November 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    Ms. Dachel, can you answer the questions given to Mr. Harris?

  120. November 11, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    You just don’t get it, do you. Worse than Autism, is the inflammation from the inflammatory
    bowel disease. That appears to make Autisms symptoms,much worse than having a child that’s a little quirky. And it’s a fact, that measles has been and is being found in the Guts
    of Autistic children. That’s, been scientifically proven. Is it causing Autism? Don’t know. All I know is, that the bowel disorder in my child could have killed him. If we did not get the pill cam, that showed all the inflammation. That BTW, FYI is the reason that he got to where he could not tolerate foods anymore. He would eat,and then start screaming and crying. Like he was being skinned alive, or like someone had thrown gas on him and lit him on fire. That’s not natural! And instead of denying it happened, till a person is pushed over the edge. They should be, treating them! Not telling the parents, that it’s not pain,these children just have bad Autistic behavior.

    I wish, that were true. And I did not have to hear my son, screaming with tears rolling like
    a child. With the exception, it’s like he’s being torn apart inside. Hitting himself in the side like he has appendicitis or something. He’s biting on the table, when the pain is the worse
    till his gums bleed. While grimacing. A facial expression, that is straight pain!

    Just this week, the MHMR person that comes to our house on a monthly basis. Said, that they were given a mini seminar on why these kids are so out of control. He was told that they are probably suffering with bowel pain from inflammation.

    It appears, that they are finally catching up with Dr. Wakefields findings. At MHMR.

    The problem is, that those who could be doing the children good. The GI Docs,they still are in the dark. Still believing, that the screaming and tears are just bad Autistic behavior.

    How would you, like to be suffering in pain. You cannot speak, so you act out with what could be considered “bad Autistic behavior” Truth is, that you are on fire inside your
    body. You hurt so bad in your Gut, that you bust out windows and doors like they are made out of balsa-wood. You attack others, including those who are care givers.
    Because your on fire, and you feel no one will put you out.

    Only those, who have a child that’s truly suffering in their Guts can understand why that mother took her child’s life.

    I will give you a glimpse, of her life. She did not have, the child’s dad to help her and stand between her and the child’s wrath. That’s, BTW being brought on by his pain and suffering.

    The child, is no longer a child in body. He is over 200 lb’s and 6 foot tall, he starts hurting. You reach out to help, and he starts beating you with his fist. After all your mom, you have always helped. Why are you refusing to help me!!!!!!! He’s thinking, He’s wishing, he could just say Please!!!! mom stop the pain. He tries, but it comes out all garbled.

    So in his mind, he has asked. And you have refused.

    You, that have children that are just a little quirky. Thank God, that you are not one of those less fortunate. Trying with all your might, to deal with a situation. That she found, appeared to be hopeless. Watching her child, screaming in pain. Knowing he’s suffering, like a cancer
    patent dying. That they refuse, to give any pain medications. Just the Psyc, drugs, after all
    he just has. Bad, Autistic behavior.

    Stop making fun of parents, that are dealing with situations that are almost impossible.

    Someday, you will be judged for such actions.

  121. Gray Falcon
    November 11, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    Joe, how we know you weren’t the one responsible?

  122. novalox
    November 11, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    @joe

    Again, where is your evidence, and why won’t you answer Chris’ question.

    Your continual refusal speaks volumes about your honesty.

  123. How about an AoA post just of that response?
  124. Matt Carey
    November 11, 2013 at 11:46 pm

    “You people defending this stupidity, of injecting heavy metals and toxins that cannot be legally be flushed into the sewer. ”

    I find this an interesting statement. For years I’ve read people writing about how their kids “dump” all sorts of heavy metals when they are chelated.

    I’ve never read one statement that the parents were keeping the feces and/or urine for hazardous waste disposal. Not even Mr. Harris. If you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you could tell us the costs and proceedures involved in hazardous waste disposal of human waste, Surely you haven’t just flushed this down the sewer, have you?

  125. Matt Carey
    November 11, 2013 at 11:48 pm

    Joe Harris :
    Everything ECBT is,is paid for by the pharmaceutical industry. BTW, that makes vaccines.
    No conflict here.

    So a former first lady of the Unites States of America is a pharma shill? Really?

  126. Chris
    November 11, 2013 at 11:58 pm

    Mr. Harris: ” Worse than Autism, is the inflammation from the inflammatory bowel disease.”

    This is a claim from Wakefield. He said it came from “the” MMR vaccine (I used the scare quotes because UK used more than one MMR vaccine). Again, if this was an issue associated with every MMR vaccine, it would have been noticed in a much larger country that used it for two decades before Wakefield came on to the scene.

    So where is the verifiable documentation from before 1990 that this “inflammatory bowel disease” was happening due the American MMR vaccine? If you don’t provide this evidence we will still just believe that Wakefield made it up due to the cash from Richard Barr.

  127. November 12, 2013 at 12:06 am

    Your playing word games,about something that is important as this. Speaks volumes.

    I just was making the case, that something that cannot legally be flushed into the sewer’
    Is recommended by the AAP CDC, to be injected into a child’s body within hours of the first breath of life.

  128. Chris
    November 12, 2013 at 12:08 am

    Mr. Harris, please answer my questions with actual verifiable evidence. Thank you.

  129. novalox
    November 12, 2013 at 12:37 am

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are playing with semantics and that you cannot answer Chris’ question.

  130. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 12, 2013 at 12:45 am

    Joe Harris :
    Your playing word games,about something that is important as this. Speaks volumes.
    I just was making the case, that something that cannot legally be flushed into the sewer’
    Is recommended by the AAP CDC, to be injected into a child’s body within hours of the first breath of life.

    And I was just pointing out that your actions are not consistent with your words. Speaks volumes. You–and others who chelate themselves and their kids–think nothing of releasing mercury into the environment. Not a thought to collecting what you consider “toxic waste”. But, put the same element in a vaccine and it’s time to scare people with “cannot be legally flushed into the sewer”. Fear mongering. Plain and simple.

  131. Chris
    November 12, 2013 at 12:49 am

    novalox, one small correction, it is now three questions:

    1. Which vaccine in the present American pediatric vaccine schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    2. How is it cheaper to treat the 10% who need hospital care because of measles than to prevent it wtih two MMR vaccines?

    3. What verifiable evidence is there dated before 1990 that autism or “inflammatory bowel disease” happened due the American introduction of an MMR vaccine in 1971?

  132. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 12, 2013 at 1:08 am

    “She complains about lawyer fees being slashed and delayed and expert fees delayed and reduced as well. ”

    The most recent unpublished decision with “fees” in the title states

    Petitioner seeks a total of $18,023.40 in attorneys’ fees and costs. Respondent has no objection to the amount requested for attorneys’ fees and costs.

    The next if I checked correctly, $21886.65 requested got “slashed” to $20,146.05

    the next

    On September 30, 2013, respondent’s counsel informed the undersigned’s law clerk that respondent does not object to petitioner’s request for attorneys’ fees and costs.

    The next one paid the full amount as did the next.

    The Autism Omnibus proceedings cost over $7M in fees to the attorneys and experts for the families.

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/02/20/fees-for-the-omnibus-autism-proceeding-hit-7m/

    Here’s a discussion of why fees for one of the law firms were reduced

    WLOP’s reductions included: the withdrawal of time and expenses relating to direct legislative lobbying, that is, any activity relating to efforts to affect the outcome of the political process; the withdrawal of time and expenses relating to “case specific” work in cases other than this claim, and unrelated to “general causation” work on the OAP; the withdrawal of time and expenses WLOP conceded were related exclusively to civil cases outside of the Vaccine Program; and the withdrawal of time and cost claims relating to public relations and media work during the pendency of the OAP. In addition, WLOP generally reduced the fees it requested for time spent on the OAP. Finally, WLOP agreed to significantly reduce the expenses for which it sought reimbursement, particularly those costs incurred while on travel.

    The Court didn’t pay them for public relations work, work for civil cases that were not part of the Omnibus, lobbying and other efforts.

    That’s “slashing” and “adversarial”?

  133. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 12, 2013 at 1:29 am

    Chris :
    novalox, one small correction, it is now three questions:
    1. Which vaccine in the present American pediatric vaccine schedule is only available with thimerosal.
    2. How is it cheaper to treat the 10% who need hospital care because of measles than to prevent it wtih two MMR vaccines?
    3. What verifiable evidence is there dated before 1990 that autism or “inflammatory bowel disease” happened due the American introduction of an MMR vaccine in 1971?

    (4) how is it that Wakefield found that 80% of the kids his team scoped had inflammation, when inflammation is not more prevalent in autistic kids?

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/266544.php

    “Results showed that having a diagnosis of ASD was not associated with CD [Celiac Disease] or inflammation. “

  134. November 12, 2013 at 6:58 am

    Hmmm…..My Poling asks that her family’s privacy be respected & that people stop using her case for driving an agenda that is unrelated to the facts…..and what is the response from AoA?

    Sorry, we “appreciate your sacrifice” but we’re going to continue to shout from the highest mountains & wave your banner in public, regardless of your wishes…..what a great bunch of people….

  135. November 12, 2013 at 9:57 am

    Brand new study from Calif. says your wrong!

    As the discredited Andrew Wakefield observed years ago, children with autism are far more likely to suffer gastro-intestinal (GI) problems such as constipation, diarrhea and food sensitivities. In fact, autistic children are eight times more likely to suffer from a gut upset, researchers report this week.
    Although Wakefield mooted that the MMR vaccine could be triggering GI problems—and was struck off for his troubles—researchers from the University of California are more non-committal, and say they don’t know the cause.
    Nonetheless, the association is there, as the researchers found when they examined a thousand autistic children. The children were six to eight times more likely than a non-autistic child to have a GI problem, which is linked to autistic behaviour such as social withdrawal, irritability and repetitive behaviour.
    (Source: Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 2013; doi: 10.1007/s10803-013-1973-x)

  136. November 12, 2013 at 10:17 am

    @Joe – and this relates to vaccines, how again? Given that vaccines aren’t even mentioned, nor is there any possible biological mechanism for vaccines to cause these issues…you really are grasping at straws….

  137. Nathan
    November 12, 2013 at 10:43 am

    Joe: “As the discredited Andrew Wakefield observed years ago, children with autism are far more likely to suffer gastro-intestinal (GI) problems such as constipation, diarrhea and food sensitivities.”

    This is not actually news. We know that autistic children have more GI issues than the general population. But that doesn’t mean there is a causative link. For example, they may have more constipation because of a propensity towards stool-withholding behaviors. Or, they may have more GI issues because of differences in the GI tract that go along with autism. Here’s the author on it:

    [["The GI problems they experience may be bidirectional," Chaidez said. "GI problems may create behavior problems, and those behavior problems may create or exacerbate GI problems. One way to try to tease this out would be to begin investigating the effects of various treatments and their effects on both GI symptoms and problem behaviors."]]

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131106202237.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+sciencedaily/health_medicine+(ScienceDaily:+Health+&+Medicine+News

    Joe: “Although Wakefield mooted that the MMR vaccine could be triggering GI problems—and was struck off for his troubles—”

    “For his troubles” meaning violating ethical requirements for doing a study and having serious undeclared conflicts of interest. Perhaps he should transition to music: “Nobody knows… the trouble I’ve seen… nobody knows… but other lying greedy fraudsters…”

  138. Chris
    November 12, 2013 at 10:43 am

    Sullivan:

    (4) how is it that Wakefield found that 80% of the kids his team scoped had inflammation, when inflammation is not more prevalent in autistic kids?

    5. What MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying? The UK introduced three different MMR vaccines in 1988, removed two of them in 1992 and replaced the one they were using in 1998 with a different one. So eleven of the children would have had one of the three introduced in 1988, and the one American child would have had the American MMR (which was slightly different). Plus the UK replaced the approved MMR vaccine in 1998 when the now retracted paper was published. So what MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying?

    6. In the press conference for that now retracted study, Wakefield told parents to get single vaccines, even though the paper had no evidence that any of the four different MMR vaccines caused autism. So what evidence did Wakefield use to make that recommendation?

  139. November 12, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Vaccine strain Measles, have been found in the Guts of children with Autism. Fact, Not wild strain. Vaccine strain.

    The old single dose package insert says, do not give within 3 weeks to a month of another live virus.

    They were afraid, that one might take hold, and set up residence in the body. It did, the Measles portion of the MMR.

    It appears the Motility of the child is greatly effected by the Measles inflammation.
    Therefore,the child cannot pass gas or poop for days sometimes weeks. If you
    cannot pass gas, you have constant relenting pain. Pain that’s so great, that
    it can double over an elephant.

    That is what these children are living with, while Idiots are busy researching the Mom and
    the Dads age. No! it’s to much TV, No! it’s the last meal the pregnant woman had before she went into labor. That’s, wasting precious research dollars.

    They should have taken biopsies,and where the research leads. That’s the culprit.

    Notice how they are not looking at where the inflammation originated. That would be getting to close, to Wakefields work. Just how does one explain, finding in the bowels of children. Vaccine strain measles?

    That’s what the CAA money was being used for,looking for the cause of Autism where the cause isn’t. On purpose! Wasting time and money.

    Whether they like it or not, Wakefield was right all along. He stood his ground, for children with no voice. That’s, the real test of a man.

  140. November 12, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Brian Dear,is crapping his little boy pants about now.

    He knew he was lying, but that was his job! Lying to keep money. GSK and MERCK money

  141. November 12, 2013 at 11:19 am

    @Joe – and your citations for the “vaccine strains in the gut” comes from where, exactly?

  142. Chris
    November 12, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Mr. Harris, please answer our questions and stop making assertions without evidence.

  143. Cindy Lewis
    November 12, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Thank you for the good laugh this morning Matt! I just about spit up my coffee.

    I may be wrong, but I don’t believe the former first lady of the United States is still running the shop.

  144. Joe
    November 12, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    You don’t get it, I don’t care what MMR was used at the time that Dr. Wakefield done his work.

    If the single dose package insert, says to not give within 3 weeks to a month of another live virus.

    It’s because, they were afraid that one might take hold and set up residence in the body.

    That could happen, if you use any brand. Brand, is not what I am trying to convey to you is the problem. It’s that the body is overwhelmed, by three at once. Thus the reason for the single dose warning, to not allow live viruses to be given to close together.

  145. Matt Carey
    November 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Joe – and this relates to vaccines, how again? Given that vaccines aren’t even mentioned, nor is there any possible biological mechanism for vaccines to cause these issues…you really are grasping at straws….

    Having failed to get actual replication of his work, Andrew Wakefield and his supporters tout any study on the digestive tract in autistics as a “replication”. It’s as though Mr. Wakefield discovered that autistics have intestine.

    Contrary to what Mr. Harris asserts, there is no good evidence that there is measles virus (vaccine strain or otherwise) in the intestinal tissue of autistic kids. There was an unpublished study presented at an IMFAR conference many years ago. It was a poster and the poster next to that showed the opposite results.

    Mr. Wakefield’s own post-doctoral researcher showed that the samples Mr. Wakefield was studying were negative, but Mr. Wakefield ignored those data.

    Mr. Wakefield had multiple years as the head of Thoughtful House, where kids were routinely scoped. Why in all that time did he not publish a replication of his own work?

    As to inflammation–here is the recent study showing no increase of inflammation in the GI tracts of autistic kids

    Although this study found no association between CD or inflammation and earlier ASDs, there was a markedly increased risk of ASDs in individuals with normal mucosa but a positive CD serologic test result.

  146. Matt Carey
    November 12, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Joe – and your citations for the “vaccine strains in the gut” comes from where, exactly?

    Does he ever say where he gets his information?

    Mr. Wakefield claimed that he found vaccine strain measles virus in the intestinal tissues of autistic kids. He did two things

    1) he ignored his own post-doc’s results which showed that there was no measles virus

    2) he used a laboratory which he had partial financial stake in (Unigenetics). Said lab’s methodology was roundly criticized by Stephen Bustin, the world’s expert on the techinque used (PCR). One example, Unigenetics left out a step that is critical for using PCR on RNA (PCR amplifies DNA so the RNA must be converted). It was impossible for Unigenetics to get accurate results.

    A later study by a team from Wake Forrest University claimed to replicate the results. This study was never published and has better work has shown the opposite. The Wake Forrest team included Arthur Krigsman, a colleague of Andrew Wakefield’s at Thoughtful House (making the “independent” replication claim false). Krigsman had been censured by his hospital for doing research without approval and for scoping kids who did not need it.

  147. November 12, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @Joe – you really need to get a basic understanding of biology, chemistry, and Science….because you are really off the reservation, showing a lack of the most basic tenets of biological sciences….

  148. Chris
    November 12, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Joe: “You don’t get it, I don’t care what MMR was used at the time that Dr. Wakefield done his work.”

    So? It is important in that there is more than one measles vaccine strain, so it would be pertinent to Wakefield’s claim about one being found in intestines. It basically shows that if he could not normalize his most important variable (which MMR vaccine), he was not a good researcher. I suspect he had no clue that there had been an MMR vaccine used in the USA and elsewhere for at least two decades before he came onto the scene.

    It is quite telling that you cannot answer the questions, or figure out why the discrepancies are important.

    Sullivan: “Mr. Wakefield had multiple years as the head of Thoughtful House, where kids were routinely scoped. Why in all that time did he not publish a replication of his own work?”

    Something he was asked to do at the Royal Free, they were going to fund him doing the study on more children. Wakefield refused, and then left. So they were done in a more precise way by Dr. Brent Taylor:

    Lancet. 1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9.
    Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association.
    Taylor B, Miller E, Farrington CP, Petropoulos MC, Favot-Mayaud I, Li J, Waight PA.

    Vaccine. 2001 Jun 14;19(27):3632-5
    MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association.
    Farrington CP, Miller E, Taylor B.
    .
    BMJ. 2002 Feb 16;324(7334):393-6
    Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study.
    Taylor B, Miller E, Lingam R, Andrews N, Simmons A, Stowe J.

  149. Matt Carey
    November 12, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    Something he was asked to do at the Royal Free, they were going to fund him doing the study on more children. Wakefield refused, and then left. So they were done in a more precise way by Dr. Brent Taylor:

    Plus Hornig, Lipkin et al..

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study

    The conclusion of the abstract:

    This study provides strong evidence against association of autism with persistent MV RNA in the GI tract or MMR exposure. Autism with GI disturbances is associated with elevated rates of regression in language or other skills and may represent an endophenotype distinct from other ASD.

    MV=measles virus
    RNA is the genetic material they are detecting

    Strong evidence against the association of persistent measles virus RNA in the GI tract…

    I.e. they looked for measles virus and didn’t find a correlation. Using multiple labs.

  150. JGC56
    November 13, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Joe Harris, which chemical supplier’s MSDS for thimerosal are you quoting from with respect to ? I’ve looked at several supplier’s MSDS’s for Thimerosal and can find no language indicating “thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body in-particular the brain and the lining around the brain”.

  151. November 13, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Sigma Aldrich In -fact there is a deposition by 2 of their employees and their having to explain how Thimerosal targets the brain and the covering of the brain.

    Like I said, almost everything I say and post. Is verifiable.

  152. November 13, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    @Joe – then verify it, because we certainly aren’t going to take your word for it…..

  153. November 13, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Like I said, Sigma Aldeich. It’s in the Depo. From Haynes and Bleazard.

  154. Chris
    November 13, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Like I said, almost everything I say and post. Is verifiable.”

    Prove it.

    And answer the following questions, with links to the evidence:

    1. Which vaccine in the present American pediatric vaccine schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    2. How is it cheaper to treat the 10% who need hospital care because of measles than to prevent it wtih two MMR vaccines?

    3. What verifiable evidence is there dated before 1990 that autism or “inflammatory bowel disease” happened due the American introduction of an MMR vaccine in 1971?

    (4) how is it that Wakefield found that 80% of the kids his team scoped had inflammation, when inflammation is not more prevalent in autistic kids?

    5. What MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying? The UK introduced three different MMR vaccines in 1988, removed two of them in 1992 and replaced the one they were using in 1998 with a different one. So eleven of the children would have had one of the three introduced in 1988, and the one American child would have had the American MMR (which was slightly different). Plus the UK replaced the approved MMR vaccine in 1998 when the now retracted paper was published. So what MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying?

    6. In the press conference for that now retracted study, Wakefield told parents to get single vaccines, even though the paper had no evidence that any of the four different MMR vaccines caused autism. So what evidence did Wakefield use to make that recommendation?

  155. November 13, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    @Joe – heavily edited YouTube videos do not constitute proof of anything….got any actual evidence of your assertions?

  156. November 13, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    What I have, is a video of the original Depo. in which Mr. Bleazard says very clearly. That the
    target organs of Thimerosal are the brain and the covering of the brain.

    You can’t, except that your wrong???

    I sent a brand new study about how children with Autism are 6 to 8 times more likely to have gut problems. Than N/T children. They looked at, 1000 kids in the study.

  157. Chris
    November 13, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    Mr. Harris, please the six questions posed to you with verifiable reference.

    Also, that study about gut problems had nothing to do with vaccines.

  158. Lawrence
    November 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @joe – and kids with Downs are more likely to also suffer from congenital heart defects. What is your point?

  159. November 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    One of you, keeps pushing a study out there,that says that there is not anymore Gut problems in Autistic children than in the N/T children. That study, was done on just a
    few children. This study, disputes that study. And, it has a 1000 children in it!

    In other words,stop spreading misinformation! It was probably, a junk study. Most done by the CDC are fraud! Trying to get, what they wanted and got from Poul Thorsen.

    Their words not mine! “were only interested in, what will exonerate the CDC and Vaccines”

    That’s the problem, they have high jacked the CAA act. For their own, fraudulent means.

    They have not once! examined the Autistic child’s biologic’s to see why these children hold fast to heavy metals. Or, what the inflammation in the child’s bowels is. Or how it got there.

    Here’s why, the IOM ruled in 2002 that it was biologically plausible. That vaccines were indeed! causing the neural developmental problems that’s being seen.

    In 2004, the CDC asked the IOM to re review their findings. This time, the CDC asked the IOM to pay very little attention. To the biological evidence, and to put all their confidence in the large population based studies.

    That’s like me saying I am going to fix your car. But I am not going to examine your car, I’m going to base my findings, on looking at all the other cars like yours. That are running and not running.

    The laws of the US state, that epidemiology alone cannot be used to prove or disprove causation.

  160. November 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    @Joe – again, no evidence to support any of your assertions…..try again.

    And please, check your grammar – your posts are almost illegible…..

    To whit, I respond:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

  161. Cindy Lewis
    November 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Joe…you are right about gut and autism. 100% right. Take it from somebody in the autism community for more than 10 years. Don’t forget the gut/brain connection.
    These guys don’t understand because they don’t deal with it daily. They have been brain washed to believe everything they are told.

  162. November 13, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    @Cindy – hmmm…..Well, I actually do research and study the materials & not just accept what the handlers over at AoA say (unlike yourself)….and unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about.

  163. Matt Carey
    November 13, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    Joe Harris :
    What I have, is a video of the original Depo. in which Mr. Bleazard says very clearly. That the
    target organs of Thimerosal are the brain and the covering of the brain.
    You can’t, except that your wrong???
    I sent a brand new study about how children with Autism are 6 to 8 times more likely to have gut problems. Than N/T children. They looked at, 1000 kids in the study.

    Gut problems do not equal vaccine injury. You keep building straw man arguments about prevalence of GI complaints in autistic kids.

    The same study found a higher prevalence of parent reported GI complaints in their non-autistic intellectually disabled kids.

    What you have, what you share and what you understand are different things.

  164. Chris
    November 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    Ms. Lewis: “These guys don’t understand because they don’t deal with it daily.”

    What part of “My son has been diagnosed with static encephalopathy which may or may not be from the seizures he suffered from a now vaccine preventable disease. He may never be able to live on his own.” that I wrote in the other thread did you not understand? I deal with it every day due to an actual illness.

    Now, again I ask, please provide the PubMed indexed study from a reputable qualified researcher that a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more encephalitis than the disease(s) it is supposed to prevent.

  165. Matt Carey
    November 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been told I don’t have a kid, my kid isn’t autistic, my kid isn’t a “real” autistic, and so on.

    I wonder if the people who write these things ever rethink their positions when it becomes clear that (a)they are wrong in their assumptions and parents of disabled kids don’t agree with them, (b) the people were lying who told them that these are the views of majority of such parents agree with these positions and/or (c) the people who told them this didnt bother to check their facts.

  166. Chris
    November 13, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    I have come to learn that they don’t care if the kid was disabled by the actual disease. I have been told it was a form of “natural selection.” Yet, for some reason, their kid would have been “too healthy” to suffer from a disease like measles, but too sensitive to the vaccine instead.

    Actually, Hannah Poling received compensation because it was considered a “table injury.” A provision in the VICP that they want to get rid of. If she had actually contracted measles, the actual disease, she would have suffered even greater injury.

    So, Ms. Lewis, that PubMed study is….? Mr. Harris, which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal?

  167. November 14, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    I have toyed with you long enough,it’s time to bring out the big question. A Question that involves 2 very different things. Apple juice and Vaccines. And what they have in common.

    Apple juice is ingested, the Mercury preservative used in children’s vaccines is injected. The Arsenic was 30 ppb, the Mercury given via hep-b that’s within hours of the first breath of God given life.It was 1000’s of ppb. Fact, the vaccine preservative Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the fish Mercury (per NIH paid study, on baby primates) That first Vaccine, it sets up the perfect storm. For neurological damage, that we know as Autistic like behavior.

    Their own Manufacturer’s, material safety data sheet (MSDS) says if you are exposed to Thimerosal any future exposures to Mercury may cause Mercury poisoning. How can you inject 9 vaccines, with 7 that contain the mercury (after the knowledge of knowing, that if you are exposed in the future, any future exposures will cause mercury poisoning) BTW, those 7 vaccines. They contained, FYI 10’s of thousands of ppb. And here’s the shocker! It’s, all being given all at once at one point in time. And you say,it did no harm? ( Not Logical )

    Now consider the fact, that Arsenic is about 500 times less toxic. Than the Mercury, that was injected into our children. So now, I would like to pose the question to you on this article and to Dr.Oz and ABC’s Dr. Besser. If 30 ppb of Arsenic, is something we need to immediately address. For fear of not knowing,the long or even short term effects. What is, 10’s of thousands of ppb of a toxin that’s 500 times more toxic. That’s,been injected? Isn’t it, the biggest mistake ever made in medical history? And wouldn’t it be, using just plain logic.The most probable cause, of today’s Autism epidemic? An epidemic, that when all said and done. Will be in the Trillions, in life long care cost. I fear, it’s a mistake that ABC and Dr Oz. Will never address. For fear, of back lash from people like ABC’s Dr. Besser. When he heard, of Dr.Oz’s findings on the Arsenic in apple juice. Fact is, almost anything Ingested. Goes, through the body’s filtering organs. Another fact is, almost anything Injected. It, by passes the body’s filtering organs.

    This is another warning,that’s also on the MSDS of Thimerosal “thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body in-particular the brain and the lining around the brain” When the CDC and the AAP says, it leaves the body. The manufacturer, says No! When the CDC and the AAP say, it does not cross the BBB. The manufacturer, MSDS tells us otherwise. For I assume, if it’s main target organ is the brain and the lining of the brain. Common sense dictates, it has to enter passed the BBB. To do so.

  168. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Apple juice is ingested, the Mercury preservative used in children’s vaccines is injected”

    What children’s vaccines? You seem to be claiming that they all contain thimerosal. Now, do please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    It is an easy question, and this is the seventh time you been asked on this page. Yet you have refused to answer it. Why is that?

  169. November 14, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    Also on the MSDS of Thimerosal, The fact,that the manufacturer says. That Thimerosal, is a mutagenic. In other words, it can mutate a child’s genes. Also under re-activity data, in the MSDS. Is a very clear warning, to never mix Thimerosal with Aluminum. Guess, what is in almost all children’s vaccines? Aluminum,that’s being used as the catalyst. The reason for the warning was, that the primary toxin. The Mercury (because Thimerosal, is 50% mercury by weight) causes when mixed. A synergistic effect, that can cause an increase from 10 to 100 times the original toxicity of the primary toxin. Here’s one that boggles the mind, in the MSDS it also states a very clear manufacturers warning. A warning, that pregnant women are never!!!! supposed to be exposed to Thimerosal. For it can cross the placenta, and go into the baby. And may cause, mild to severe mental retardation. That appears, to be a logical explanation. And the very reason, that some children are being born with Autism. think about it, two flu shots, that contain Thimerosal before the child ever takes a breath. Of, God given life. But, their incompetence, it just gets worse! For the mothers to be,if they have Rh negative blood. Those pregnant women, get 2 more. Their called Rhogam vaccines, with the full strength!!! mercury containing Thimerosal. That’s up to four shots! all containing the Thimerosal that the manufacturer warns a pregnant woman to never be exposed to. Those 4 shots, are are then passed on to the baby through the placenta! That’s, according to their own MSDS. Pair all of that, with the first warning that I gave you from my first post.The stern warning, if you are exposed to Thimerosal. That first exposure, can cause you to be more susceptible to symptoms of Mercury poisoning. If you ever wonder, why it is that these vaccine damaged children’s cases are not heard in a real court. Because in a real court, They (the HHS attorneys ) know that their cases would be decimated!

    By just the manufacturer’s, own dire warnings. On the highly used, vaccine preservative that is called. Thimerosal.

    In-fact,that’s why the US.Supreme court ruled last year, “that vaccines are so unavoidably
    unsafe that they cannot allow the vaccine injured to sue the vaccine manufacturer’s.

    Think about it, is that the Supreme court telling we the people. That our children, are taking the vaccines at their own risk?

  170. November 14, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Why don’t you, take apart my post? And explain to the people,why your able to answer at all times. Don’t you work? Or are you in a cubical, somewhere. Doing, what you are paid to do.

    Putting out fires, on any vaccine related article.

    Surly,if 30 ppb of ingested arsenic in apple juice.Got the worlds attention,10’s of thousands of PPB of an of an injected substance. (the preservative, that is 50% mercury by weight)

    That’s BTW, is 500 times more toxic. And, is given at one point in time. Shouldn’t that, get the same media attention.

  171. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Why should I take apart your post when it has been irrelevant by the answer to the question that you refuse to answer: tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal.

    Come on, Mr. Harris, tell us. Then we might care about your rantings about mercury in vaccines. An issue that has been dead for more than a decade. So dead that Sallie Bernard could not find a DTaP with thimerosal a dozen years ago:

    Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
    From: Sally Bernard
    Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
    Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
    Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

    Hi all:

    A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

    Thank you.

    Sallie Bernard
    Executive Director
    Safe Minds

  172. November 14, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    @Joe – again, which vaccines on the US Pediatric schedule contain Thimerasol?

  173. November 14, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    First, you are wrong! It was removed from full strength, in 2002 with an expiration date of 2004. Second, it is still present, in some vaccines in trace amounts. The tetanus,, it still has full strength thimerosal.

    In 1948, a microbiologist armed with a grant from the AMA did the first non bias research on thimerosal. His findings, were that thimerosal was toxic down to one one millionth of a gram.

    He, Dr Frank Engley said “and that is as toxic as it gets!” He was later quoted as saying even in what is considered as trace amounts. Are very highly toxic.

    When the CDC Dir,. finally took action. She turns around,after the removal. And, she does what she was warned to never do (go any earlier with the mercury) for the CDC was told. At a meeting called Simpson wood, if you do go earlier,that you would most certainly get more outcomes. Meaning ADD ADHD and Speech-delay. And of course, lets not forget the main reason they went to Simpson wood. Autism!

    She the Dir. of the CDC upon removal of the thimerosal to trace amounts. Put out a stern CDC warning, to all pregnant women and all children 6 mos.to to yr’s.You! are at risk for flu complications, and you must! get your flu shots.

    The Dir. of the CDC, she knew of the Manufacturer’s MSDS warning. A warning, to never expose any pregnant women to Thimerosal. For the MSDS says, if you do. It can cross
    the placenta, and go into the baby and may cause mild to severe mental retardation.

    The best science, on children 6 mos to 2 yr’s. Was from the UK, from what would be the equivalent of the IOM here. The Cochrane collaboration stated, that children 6 mos to 2 yr’s get absolutely no benefit from the inactivated flu vaccine. Except that, of a placebo effect.

    She knew all that, yet when asked by the parents with the children that were destroyed by thimerosal “please Dir. make a plea, to the pregnant women to ask for a preference for a thimerosal free or even a reduced to trace amounts containing flu shots”

    Her answer was NO! You see, she the Dir. knew that she had to get it back in. Before the massive drops, of ADD ADHD and Autism began. In-fact this was said about them having
    to remove it. “we have a plan in place”

    So,she did what she was warned not to ever do. That is, unless you want more outcomes.

    So she poisoned even more children, after knowing what she knew. That’s premeditated!

    So to answer you question,its still in trace amounts in some of the vaccines. But remember,
    the AMA study author said “even in trace amounts, it’s still highly toxic and unsafe!”

  174. novalox
    November 14, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are wrong and that you cannot answer the questions asked of you honestly.

  175. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Put out a stern CDC warning, to all pregnant women and all children 6 mos.to to yr’s.You! are at risk for flu complications, and you must! get your flu shots.”

    Please post the evidence that all influenza vaccines contain thimerosal.

  176. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Second, it is still present, in some vaccines in trace amounts. The tetanus,, it still has full strength thimerosal.”

    Prove it. Show that all DTaP vaccines still contain thimerosal.

  177. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    And to add on… and explain why Sallie Bernard could not get a hold of DTaP vaccine with thimerosal.

    Also, the question specifically states on the “present American pediatric schedule.” Do you know what the word “pediatric” means?

  178. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Joe, the Sigma Aldritch MSDS for Thimerosal was the first manufacturer’s MSD I looked at (in fact, I’ve got it open on my PC in front of me now). It does not state “thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body in-particular the brain and the lining around the brain”.

    Which is understandable, given that Thimerosal does not in fact accumulate in the bofy–following injection thimerosal instead rapidly dissociates to form ethyl (not methyl) mercury which is rapidly eliminated from the body, primarily by fecal excretion. In infants following vaccination ethyl mercury has a half-life of less than 4 days and blood mercury levels return to pre-vaccination levels by 30 days after vaccination. (see Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines, Pichichero et al, Pediatrics Vol. 121 No. 2 February 1, 2008 pp. e208 -e214).

  179. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    “Their own Manufacturer’s, material safety data sheet (MSDS) says if you are exposed to Thimerosal any future exposures to Mercury may cause Mercury poisoning. ”

    Uhh, Joe? Still got the Sigma Aldritch MSDS open on my PC–it says no such thing.

    Perhaps you don';t know what an MSDS is?

  180. November 14, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    I beleive the number is about 80% with fill strength thimerosal. And, if a pregnant woman is told to get a flu vaccine. Without being told, to ask for one that’s thimerosal free.Is that not,
    a break down in the system. In-fact, I had a conversation with an FDA agent. I asked, the question. Why aren’t you,telling a pregnant woman to only get a thimerosal free flu vaccine?

    Her answer was profound, “the pregnant woman,should know if she is allergic to thimerosal”

    I followed up with “most pregnant women,don’t even know what thimerosal is” She followed up with, “it’s not our job, to make sure people are not allergic to things”

    I said, I thought that was your job, safety of products!

  181. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    Also under re-activity data, in the MSDS. Is a very clear warning, to never mix Thimerosal with Aluminum. ”

    Uhh..Joe? About that MSDS again? Here’s the entire section on stability and reactivity:

    10. STABILITY AND REACTIVITY

    Chemical stability
    Stable under recommended storage conditions.

    Possibility of hazardous reactions
    no data available

    Conditions to avoid
    no data available

    Materials to avoid
    Strong oxidizing agents, Strong acids, Strong bases

    Hazardous decomposition products

    Hazardous decomposition products formed under fire conditions. – Carbon oxides, Sulphur oxides, Sodium oxides, Mercury/mercury oxides.

    Other decomposition products – no data available

    No mention of “Never mix with aluminum.

  182. November 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    You might not want to, attach your buggy to his horse. That is without, knowing what Dr. Burbacher said to him. When he tried, to get that incomplete poor excuse of a study out
    there.

    Again I have a Sigma Aldrich deposition that states the target organs are the brain and the lining of the brain. It’s their own employees stating that as fact. To what they believe,about their product thimerosal.

    It would make sense to change, ones MSDS to reflect a safer product. In fact that’s what many have done, but we still have the original MSDS sheets.

    Everybody involved in this cover up, has tried to change history. And take, what was a well known IQ lowering neural toxin. And turn it into, a friendlier gentle kind of mercury.

  183. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 4:36 pm

    I see why Mr. Harris never posts links to prove what he says. It is because he just makes it up.

    This table of thimerosal content of pediatric vaccines shows out of three DTaP, two do not have thimerosal, and out of eight influenza vaccine four do not have thimerosal.

    Oh, Mr. Harris, why did Burbacher have to add thimerosal to the vaccines he gave to those poor primates?

  184. November 14, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    @Chris – Joe can’t post evidence because he doesn’t have it…you are right to say that he is making up his assertions from whole cloth….

  185. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    “The Mercury (because Thimerosal, is 50% mercury by weight) causes when mixed.”

    Describing thimerosal as “50% mercury by weight” makes it sound like the molecule conatins scary amounts of mercury, but chemical and biological reactions don’t occur as a function of the atomic weight of an element. If you wanted to express the amount of mercury in thimerosal, at least dowith respect to the total number of all atoms in the molecule–it’s almost meaningful that way.

    The chemical formula for Thimerosal is C9H9HgNaO2S: 9 carbons, 9 hydrogens, 1 each mercury, sodium and sulphur, 2 oxygens.As mercury is one of 24 ttotalatoms in the molecule, thimerosal is 4.167% (not 50%) mercury.

    I know, I know–“But 4% won’t scare anyone!”

  186. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    Since ethyl mercury (the form of mercury thimerosal dissociates to form after injection) has a completely different and toxicologic profile other forms of mercury (i.e., elemental or methyl mercury) it has in fact always been “a friendlier gentle kind of mercury.”

  187. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Oh, one more thing while I still have the Sigma MSDS open. That whole “thimerosal is a mutagenic” the MSDS states. That means, that thimerosal has the express ability to mutate our children’s genes. So, thimerosal, has the ability to change our children’s genetic make up”?

    In the “Toxicological Information” section the Sigma MSDS includes the warning “Germ cell mutagenicity”. Are children made up of germ cells, Joe? No. Perhaps prolonged exposure at sufficiently high dosage it might cause mutations in the ova or sperm cells they produce, but there’s no evidence that it will cause their genetic composition to change.

  188. Linda Weinmaster
    November 14, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Why ignore the fact that a generations of children, beginning with the addition of the Hep B and the HIB to the vaccine schedule in the early 90’s, were exposed to 300 times more mercury than previous generations? Those are the children and young adults Joe is talking about. Between 1991 and 2004 most vaccines contained 12.5 (Hep B) to 25 micro grams of mercury. According to government agencies, FDA, EPA a safe level for mercury exposure in all forms is .1 micro gram per kilogram of weight. A baby needed to weigh 275 pounds on the day of birth to eat one Hep B vaccine. Unfortunately it is directly inject so it by passes all of the bodies natural protection. There is a genetically susceptible population that has MTHFR, missing an enzyme that converts homocysteine to the methionine synthase pathway to make glutathione. Most autistic’s have low glutathione levels making it impossible to process metals. It is that simple and my sons team of physicians, including his family practice M.D. agree and have diagnosed my son with Metabolic encephalopathy due to metals secondarily to immunizations.

  189. November 14, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    I’ll just quote two, of the vaccine pushers own best and most respected Dr’s. Dr. Neil Halsey
    and Dr. Maurice Hilleman

    Dr. Hilleman, he created the children’s vaccine program for Merck. His words obliterate,the CDC AAP line. The lines used, that say that the amount of Mercury used in the children’s vaccines was minuscule.

    Dr Hillemans words were, “on the next vaccine schedule, the children will be getting 87 times what the EPA considers safe and I am concerned”

    He then said “this was not daily doses as such, this was bolus doses given all at once at one point in time, when viewed in this manner, it does appear rather large”

    ” Halsey says. ”In most vaccine containers, thimerosal is listed as a mercury derivative, a hundredth of a percent. And what I believed, and what everybody else believed, was that it was truly a trace, a biologically insignificant amount. My honest belief is that if the labels had had the mercury content in micro-grams, this would have been uncovered years ago. But the fact is, no one did the calculation.”

    The article,goes on to say. Even small amounts, of organic mercury could do harm to the fetal brain.

    From an excellent article, written by very talented journalist…. Arthur Allen.

    Making matters worse, the latest science on mercury damage suggested that even small amounts of organic mercury could do harm to the fetal brain. Some of the federal safety guidelines on mercury were relaxed in the 90’s, even as the amount of mercury that children received in vaccines increased. The more Halsey learned about these mercury studies, the more he worried.

  190. November 14, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    @Joe – how about any actual citations….got anything at all?

    @Linda – you do know the difference between compounds and elements, right?

    Again, I’ll show you these:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Which show you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.

  191. November 14, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Your citing, one of the most corrupt organization’s in the US. The same organization, that when they heard this mistake was made. Said; “this is accumulative in the body,we must find the best chelating agent and get with it. That is, till they found out that at the Simpson wood meeting. They were all told, with the current research that’s out there, we are all in
    a bad position from the standpoint of defending lawsuits. If their initiated.

    And I am concerned. That was said, by Dr. Brent at the Simpson wood meeting.

  192. November 14, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    @Joe – again, any real citations? I’ve included a link to a few dozen studies by a variety of organizations, both foreign and domestic…..what have you done?

    You are also harping on something that isn’t even in common use anymore – again, give us your list of all current US Pediatric vaccines (on the schedule) that include thimerasol….if you don’t in the next post of yours, we’ll know you can’t answer.

  193. November 14, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    Are you stupid? Stay away from oxidizing agents, anybody knows that Mercury causes the oxidation of Aluminum. But, your only siting one source of Thimerosal. There is many, and that’s why children haven’t a chance of getting justice. Because many, Pharmaceutical Co’s would be included in the lawsuit’s.

    Next time you board a plane, tell them you are bringing Mercury on a plane. Watch their response,you will be treated as a terrorist. Mercury, can eat right through the planes Aluminum skin. It’s oxidation! What the manufacturer warns to stay away from.

  194. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 7:29 pm

    Ms. Weinmaster: “Why ignore the fact that a generations of children, beginning with the addition of the Hep B and the HIB to the vaccine schedule in the early 90′s, were exposed to 300 times more mercury than previous generations?”

    Are you forgetting the mercury in Mercurochrome? I used to get covered when the stuff, especially after getting lots of chigger bites. How about exposure to broken mercury thermometers? We used to actually play with the stuff. How about teething powders with mercury, enough to actually turn children pink!

    And before the 1990s thousands of children were killed and disabled with Hib. Plus there are still almost two thousand deaths in the USA each year due to chronic hepatitis b infections, usually acquired when the victim was a small child.

    And have you noticed that in the more than a decade since thimerosal was taken from pediatric vaccines that the level of autism has not dropped? So, Ms. Weinmaster, you need to come up with the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that shows the HepB vaccine causes more harm than hepatitis b, and one that shows the Hib vaccine is worse than getting haemophilus influenzae type b. Some examples of the studies expected:

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Pediatrics. 2010 Oct;126(4):656-64. Epub 2010 Sep 13.
    Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism

  195. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Mercury causes the oxidation of Aluminum.”

    I can see, Mr. Harris, you have never taken any chemistry or materials science. Do you even know the difference between an element, an atom or a molecule?

    Everything causes oxidation of aluminum! This is why you very seldom see it its pure state. It is a very reactive element, which is why it was so precious a bit over a century ago. It is extremely common on this planet’s crust, but very difficult to get the other atoms off the molecule it is in.

    Oh, and the aluminum that is in vaccines is a very stable salt, much like alum. Oh, and what is one form oxidized aluminum: corundum, which can be called ruby or sapphire depending on color. A fine layer of that oxide covers all bare aluminum. The elemental mercury can damage aluminum, but only after the protective layer of aluminum oxide is scratched, as noted in this video.

  196. November 14, 2013 at 9:52 pm

    I was surprised, you put that out there. I posted that link, yr’s ago. Pretty scary, isn’t it.

    One of the MSDS sheets explains, when you mix the two salts (mercury and aluminum) you get the production of heat.

    I assume, that’s because of the oxidation process that’s taking place.

  197. Linda Weinmaster
    November 14, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    Chris,
    Have you seen my sons lab work? NOPE, My son has documented mercury poisoning from blood, urine, hair, teeth and fecal samples. How many vaccines did you have as a child? What is your MTHFR status? Did you inject Mercurochrome as an infant? The flu vaccine was recommended in 2004 for infant 6 months and above and pregnant women,, so mercury was not eliminated. I have 3 kids two born in the 80’s and one in 90’s and there was a huge difference in the amount of mercury they were exposed to. Why is mercury still used in the manufacturing process and in the majority of flu shots? Your Pediatric. epidemiological studies are nothing but accounting fraud, you can prune the data to show what ever you want. How can you defend an poison that is not needed to make the vaccines work? I can answer that, a big pay check and a hidden identity.

  198. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    Mr. Harris, no it is not scary. It is interesting, but try that without scratching the oxide coating and nothing will happen. Then try it by scratching the coating and pouring a vial of thimerosal on it… pretty much nothing will happen.

    The oxide coating, which happens when elemental aluminum is exposed to air is the same thing as the grit in sandpaper, and the gems known as ruby and sapphire.

    What is your educational background? I detect a lack of you ever taking education seriously.

    It is obvious that you do not understand there is a vast difference between elemental mercury, thimerosal, ethylmercury and methylmercury. You can’t even answer a simple question, and when you attempt it was clear you did not understand what the word “pediatric” means. And I don’t think I have ever seen you post a link to a webpage, and you definitely cannot even give a proper citation.

  199. Gray Falcon
    November 14, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    Linda, if that’s even your real name, how do we know you’re not making things up? Cures are far more expensive than prevention, and pharmaceutical companies stand to make far more if vaccine usage is reduced. How do we know you don’t have any financial incentive? How do we even know that’s your real name?

    Accusations alone are meaningless. Evidence is what we need.

  200. Linda Weinmaster
    November 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    Molecular Aspects of Thimerosal-induced Autism
    Richard C. Deth, Ph.D.
    Professor of Pharmacology
    Northeastern University
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Summary
    The developmental disorder autism has both genetic and environmental origins, and its forty-fold increase during the past two decades reflects an increased role for environmental factors. It has been proposed that increased use of vaccines containing the ethylmercury derivative thimerasol is the major contributing factor. Published research from my laboratory has revealed that thimerosal is an exceptionally potent inhibitor of biochemical pathways that transfer single carbon atoms between molecules. These “methylation” pathways are critically involved in several important functions including the regulation of gene expression and the molecular mechanism of attention. Recent studies from my lab indicate that thimerosal exerts its toxic effect on methylation by interfering with formation of the active form of vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin. Dietary B12 must be converted to methylB12 (methylcobalamin) in order to assist in the transfer of single-carbon methyl groups from the folic acid pathway by the enzyme known as methionine synthase. By reducing methylB12 formation, thimerosal inhibits this enzyme and thereby interferes with methylation events. Autistic children have abnormal plasma levels of methylation-related metabolites and exhibit higher frequencies of genetic mutations that affect this pathway. These genetic risk factors make them less able to detoxify thimerosal and also increase their sensitivity to its mechanism of toxicity. In many cases, autism can be effectively treated by the administration of methylB12 along with other agents that augment methylation capacity. Taken together, these facts indicate that increased exposure to thimerosal has combined with genetic risk factors in a sensitive subpopulation to cause the recent rise in autism.
    Outline
    1. The Puzzle of Autism
    2. Physiological and Biochemical Roles of Methylation
    3. Activity of Methionine Synthase
    4. Effects of Thimerosal and Heavy Metals
    5. Autism-associated Metabolic and Genetic Abnormalities
    6. Methylation-related Treatments for Autism
    7. Conclusions

  201. Gray Falcon
    November 14, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    Linda, that just shows that even a Ph.D. can be spectacularly wrong. Now, tell me something. Has anything changed with the law of conservation of mass? How did the small amount of mercury in the vaccines multiply in your children’s bodies? And why was autism not as prevalent during the Industrial Revolution, when mercury was ubiquitous?

  202. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    Ms. Weinmaster: “How many vaccines did you have as a child?”

    I was an Army brat. I have been vaccinated for smallpox, typhus, typhoid, yellow fever, etc.

    “NOPE, My son has documented mercury poisoning from blood, urine, hair, teeth and fecal samples”

    What lab? There are some very dubious ones out there.

    As far as Mercurochrome went, do you even know what a chigger bite is like? It is much like an injection, as are the scrapes, scratches and cuts a kid gets in normal running around and play. In fact, there would be more Mercurochrome absorbed in a scraped knee than in any vaccine. I can’t believe you went through childhood or had kids without ever encountering a scraped knee or a bug bite.

    MTHFR is just another of countless genetic sequences, and unless you provide citations to support your claims on it, I am ignoring anything you say about it. I found exactly one PubMed link with the search term “MTHFR vaccine”: PMID 18454680 (it’s about smallpox). Dravet syndrome is also caused by a genetic sequence, and there are twelve cites with the search term “dravet vaccine”, mostly showing what were thought to be reactions to a vaccine were actually due a genetic form of epilepsy. There are also lots and lots of disorders caused by certain sequences in the mitorchondrial DNA (my son was checked for several for his heart condition, he had none of them).

    “Your Pediatric. epidemiological studies are nothing but accounting fraud, you can prune the data to show what ever you want.”

    So you are now using conspiracy theories to discount the science? At this point you are revealed to not have any real evidence. If you wish to be taken seriously you will need to provide real citations and not blatant assertions and accusations.

  203. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    Ms. Weinmaster: “The flu vaccine was recommended in 2004 for infant 6 months and above and pregnant women,, so mercury was not eliminated. ”

    Citation needed.

    Since my son was diagnosed with a several genetic heart condition around that time, and was encouraged to get the influenza vaccine. Since there was a limited number of flu vaccines available those of us who were not elderly or with health issues had to wait until much later in the season to get the influenza vaccine. It was pretty much impossible to get it for the other kids until about at the earliest five years ago.

  204. November 14, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    I’ve never understood why people could think that the incredibly small amount of thimerasol (when it was used) in vaccines could suddenly and spontaneously multiple into these gobs & gobs of mercury…..don’t you realize that if you chelate someone without heavy metal poisoning (as most quacks do during the bio-medical nightmares they call treatment) all you are doing is leeching out any and all minerals contained in the body?

  205. Linda Weinmaster
    November 14, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    MY SON HAS CONFIRMED MERCURY POISONING FROM LAB CORP OF AMERICA, his doctors determined the mercury was from his vaccines,

  206. Gray Falcon
  207. Chris
    November 14, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    Ms. Weinmaster, a citation should at least include the date and journal.

    Oh, there is a reason I ask for studies by “reputable” researchers. Richard Deth does not qualify:

    Deth became ‘hot property’ in the anti-vaccine autism groups after publishing a paper (with which there were numerous issues – see Bart Cubbins excellent video for details) that was funded by one of those anti-vaccine groups – Safe Minds. Interestingly, during an exchange with Kathleen documented at neurodiversity.com, it also came to light that Richard Deth was registered as a paid expert witness in the vaccine litigation omnibus proceedings.

    Unfortunately the Neurodiversity blog is no more, but it is one the Wayback Machine: An Exchange of Views · 2006-03-26 15:30.

    Other researchers with questionable reputations are Boyd Haley the Geiers, Chris Shaw and his PhD student, Gary Goldman, Neil Z. Miller, Mark Blaxill, and a few more.

  208. Nathan
    November 14, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    Linda: “MY SON HAS CONFIRMED MERCURY POISONING FROM LAB CORP OF AMERICA, his doctors determined the mercury was from his vaccines,”

    You should get a second opinion. There isn’t enough of anything in vaccines to poison anybody.

  209. JGC56
    November 14, 2013 at 11:37 pm

    Linda, two questions:

    Those Lab Corp tests confirming your son has heavy metal poisoning, were those provoked or unprovoked tests?

    How exactly did your physicians determine the source of the mercury could only be from vaccines he’d received?

  210. November 14, 2013 at 11:48 pm

    So, anybody that stands up for children.( Most BTW, has no voice ) Is considered in your eyes, questionable reputation. Anybody, that throws children head first under the bus. According to you, is considered credible??

    My God have mercy,on your soul. That is, if you have one.

  211. Nathan
    November 15, 2013 at 12:08 am

    “So, anybody that stands up for children.( Most BTW, has no voice ) Is considered in your eyes, questionable reputation. Anybody, that throws children head first under the bus. According to you, is considered credible??”

    No, most people who stand up for children advocate for vaccination, which saves children’s lives. The people Chris listed have legitimate problems. Neil Miller, for example, believes aliens are visiting us.

  212. Nathan
    November 15, 2013 at 12:17 am

    Oh, and here’s the one where he claims he interviewed the extra-terrestrials. Apparently there’s a book.

  213. November 15, 2013 at 12:27 am

    Vaccination, has become the biggest fraud in american history. it is responsible, for more misery than the disease it’s meant to prevent.

    Am I a non vaccinator? I am now, since my sons life was destroyed by the garbage the Idiots injected into him.

  214. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:52 am

    Joe, do you know what smallpox is? Or polio? Have you ever considered the possibility that it wasn’t vaccines that affected your son? Have you ever thought about ending that pity-party of yours and think of your son as a human being? You have no right to talk about morality, you have none to begin with.

  215. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 12:57 am

    @joe

    Thanks for again admitting that you have no morals and that you resort to threats instead of actually showing evidence.

    Again, why should any sane rational person believe you?

    And I’m pretty sure that whatever “god” you worship wouldn’t be one I would wish to believe in, since I’m sure any good deity would want mankind to find ways to lessen suffering, instead of punishing people for trying to prevent VPDs.

  216. November 15, 2013 at 1:13 am

    Why would God, want your vaccine program. That contains aborted fetal tissue in the vaccines.

    When Cain slew Able,God said his blood cried out to him. Do you really think, that God winks at you putting any part of an aborted baby’s body in your vaccines.

    Ah! but it’s just? No, God said Ables blood cried out to him.

    This country, murders baby’s and then takes some part of them and creates their vaccines.

    You really think, that pleases God?????

  217. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 1:19 am

    Joe, do you remember “Do not bear false witness?” The “aborted fetal tissue” statement is an outright lie, and you have no excuse not to know that.

    Now tell me, do you know what smallpox is? And don’t try to convince me it’s still around, that’s about as implausible as claiming the moon doesn’t exist.

  218. November 15, 2013 at 1:28 am

    Sorry, your dead wrong! in fact a vaccine insider came forward and confirmed that 23 of the licensed vaccines. They do, contain aborted fetal tissue!

  219. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Which “vaccine insider” are you talking about? How do you know he isn’t lying for the sake of fame?

    Now tell me, do you know what smallpox is, and how many it killed? Do you know what polio is? Are you aware of the number of people permanently disabled by measles? For someone who thinks of himself as speaking the word of God, you are remarkably blithe to the suffering of the innocent.

  220. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 1:59 am

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that there is no such thing as fetal tissue in vaccines. Why should anyone believe you, when you don’t even try to present any actual evidence and when asked, resort to more threats, ad hominems, and lies, as well as refusing to answer the questions posed of you.

    Second, I’m sure whatever “god” you worship is one I wouldn’t want to associate myself with, since I think an actual deity would want mankind to use their knowledge to improve themselves and reduce suffering, not lie and bring invective upon others for doing the right thing,

    Also, I see that you are breaking the 1st, 3rd, and 7th Commandments, according to the Christian Bible and the Jewish Pentateuch. I’m sure that any deity or any rational person would realize the sins that you are committing.

  221. November 15, 2013 at 6:54 am

    As high as the heavens are, where I placed my crown and my cross. So is my anger kindled. toward those who have harmed my little ones for profit.

  222. November 15, 2013 at 6:55 am

    @Joe – you are now merely repeating very old anti-vaccine talking points, which have been refuted over and over again (and your reiterating of them just shows how badly educated you actually are regarding basic science and biology).

    Todd W. has a great site (in need of updating, but the basic science is still correct) that point out the various flaws, lies and misrepresentation in the anti-vaccine arguments:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

  223. November 15, 2013 at 7:01 am

    @Joe – so, since you can’t provide any real citations (except evidence-less rants & conspiracy theories), lack an understanding of basic biological mechanisms and science, and seem to have a tenuous hold on reality-based thinking in general, I believe it is time to be done with this particular troll……

  224. November 15, 2013 at 7:15 am

    Introducing, the lord I serve. King Jesus

    “VICTOR’S CROWN”

    You are always fighting for us
    Heaven’s angels all around
    My delight is found in knowing
    That You wear the Victor’s crown
    You’re my help and my defender
    You’re my Saviour and my friend
    By Your grace I live and breathe
    To worship You

    At the mention of Your greatness
    In Your Name I will bow down
    In Your presence fear is silent
    For You wear the Victor’s crown
    Let Your glory fill this temple
    Let Your power overflow
    By Your grace I live and breathe
    To worship You

    Hallelujah
    You have overcome
    You have overcome
    Hallelujah
    Jesus You have overcome the world

    You are ever interceding
    As the lost become the found
    You can never be defeated
    For You wear the Victor’s crown
    You are Jesus the Messiah
    You’re the Hope of all the world
    By Your grace I live and breathe
    To worship You

    Every high thing must come down
    Every stronghold shall be broken
    You wear the Victor’s crown
    You overcome
    You overcome

    At the cross the work was finished
    You were buried in the ground
    But the grave could not contain You
    For You wear the Victor’s crown

    Amen

  225. Lawrence
    November 15, 2013 at 7:49 am

    @Joe – sorry Joe, I don’t take medical advice from two thousand year old goat herders…..I think medical science has advanced a bit since then.

    No, not looney-toons there at all Joe……(shrugs)

  226. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 8:46 am

    Joe, the Bible has plenty to say about false prophets. Simply saying you speak in Jesus’ name and printing a hymn doesn’t make you righteous. It only means that you, who care nothing about human suffering beyond your own, have to answer to God in the end.

  227. November 15, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Wow last time someone made fun of me, one guy rolled his new jeep Cherokee. That BTW,
    had no insurance on it. It was totaled.

    Another guy, at that same time. He, laughed at what the other guy said. He got a call from his wife,seems she was being rushed to the hospital. Later that day, she lost the baby they were waiting on.

    You see, God is very protective of his children. Especially, those that say as I did that day. Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.

    What had happened was,when me and another christian employee was talking about how great the Sunday services at our churches were. They were mocking us, by pretending to
    be worshiping with their hands up in the air. The rest, is a very sad part of their history.

    I went back to that business, a while back and found out that he had passed away. He will remember that day, he mocked the God of the bible. For all,of eternity. If he did not, find salvation. I hope he did.

    That 2000 yr old Goat herder,he took lashes on his back a crown of thorns on his head and was nailed to a cross for you. I watched a documentary, on the Crucifixion. It was being examined, by a forensics specialist. He said, that Jesus had to pull up on the nails for every breath of life he took. It was so bad, that God turned his face from Jesus the bible says.

    This he did,even knowing 2000 yr’s ago that you would call him a goat herder.

    I was astounded, to see how fast that he took revenge on behalf of me and my Christian friend. We did nothing wrong that day, and the lord knew it.

    I believe, it was because I sought none. (revenge) By saying, forgive them Father.

    The rest of that story is, that he Jesus went into the bowels of the earth. And kicked open, the gates of hell. And took away from satan, the keys of death hell and the grave.

    Please be respectful in the future, to a God that lets people call him a 2000 yr old goat herder. And still, allows you to breath. For every breath you take, is from the Father.

  228. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 12:17 pm

    Mr. Harris: “You see, God is very protective of his children. Especially, those that say as I did that day. Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.”

    Polio is still endemic in parts of this world. Apparently their deity believes men should shoot health care workers providing vaccines (usually women) and little girls who attend school. This sounds lie your deity, since you have no regard for those who would protect children from disease and have dared to get an education.

    You have demonstrated on this thread very little knowledge of chemistry and biology, and just make stuff up (hint: cell lines are used because viruses need to reproduce in certain kinds of cell, and there are not 23 vaccines just for viral diseases… bacteria are different).

    Mr. Harris, explain to why we should care about your opinions. Tell us why we should regard your assertions without any supporting evidence as “truth.”

  229. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Joe, have you ever actually read the Bible?
    Luke 13: At that very time there were some present who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 He asked them, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were worse sinners than all other Galileans? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did. 4 Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them—do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did.”

    Those aren’t divine judgements, those are coincidences that you happen to remember. I’m sure there were just as many people who found good fortune after criticizing you. If you truly believed in God, you would honor His desire that you speak the truth, and act with compassion.

  230. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Does anybody know why my comments are being moderated?

  231. November 15, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    Why did they find the napkin folded, that was on Jesus face? It was Jewish tradition, that the master would crumple his napkin. And then,he would put it next to the plate when he was through. If he folded it, it meant, “I’m coming back!”

    On the third day,Jesus rose from the grave. He then ascended into heaven, waiting to come for his bride.

    At anytime, Jesus could have called on as many Angels as he wanted. Keep in mind 1 Angel in the bible slew thousands… of evil men. But Jesus let his disciples know, that this is not his kingdom.

    If it was, he would have fought. That day is coming soon, when he will take back possession
    of the earth.

  232. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Joe, do you care about the people killed by measles, or crippled by polio? Do you care about all the lives saved by the smallpox vaccine?

  233. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    No doubt because a few bad things happened to a couple of his critics Joe thinks of himself the next Elijah. Of course, bad things happen to good people, and good things to the bad, and the Bible actively acknowledges that. I strongly suspect he’s one of those fanatics who worships the Bible, but has not read a word of it.

  234. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Mr. Harris, why should we care about your opinions when you care little about children like my son that have been injured by actual diseases? Or that you care little about education and science?

  235. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    “Vaccination, has become the biggest fraud in american history. it is responsible, for more misery than the disease it’s meant to prevent.”

    Joe, your evidence that vaccines cause more harm than the diseases they are developed to protect against would be…what, exactly? Be specific.

    And while we’re at it, your evidence that the roll-over and the miscariage were caused by magic at the direction of your invisible friend would be…what, exactly?

    Speaking of which, I’m constantly being told that this god you’re referring to is adamantly opposed to abortion, but the way you claim he chose to punish someone who ridiculed you was to abort that guys unborn child? How does your god live with himself after that level of brutality and hyposcrisy?

    “That 2000 yr old Goat herder,he took lashes on his back a crown of thorns on his head and was nailed to a cross for you.”

    Joe, you’re speaking as if the bible were known to possess some inherent authority,
    or as if the description of the crucifixation given in the gospels were known to be an accurate account of an actual historical event. Why?

  236. November 15, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    When you read the private FDA emails, that were received through the FOIA act. It really is hard, to ever trust them. Ever again.

    Knowing how bad the Autism epidemic is,for the CDC to tell someone they hand an 11 million dollar CAA funded CDC contract to. We are only interested, in what will exonerate the CDC and vaccines. Considering, that the parents of the children who were and still are suffering. Were waiting, for good research to be done by the CDC in Denmark. This betrayal,denotes, very clearly that their not interested in the truth. Just give them something,anything saying that they did not poison a generation of American kids. Sorry, you did! And one, was mine!!!

  237. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Joe, there’s something you should know. Simply claiming you speak for God isn’t enough for people to believe you. It isn’t even enough for Christians, who are warned against false prophets. How do we know you aren’t a false prophet, our for your own gain?

  238. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Mr. Harris: “When you read the private FDA emails, that were received through the FOIA act. It really is hard, to ever trust them. Ever again.”

    Does your deity encourage you to lie? Why should we believe you when you post absolutely no verifiable evidence?

  239. November 15, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    Until he lives in your heart, you will never know. But for the person, who he lives in their heart. Because they asked. They just know.

  240. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Joe, John 20:7 doesn’t say a napkin was found folded on Jesus’ face. The Greek word the author of the Gospel of st. John used which you’re translating as ‘folded’ is ‘entetyligmenon’, which instead means ‘wrapped up’, and the word you’re translating as ‘napkin’ is ‘soudarion’ which actually means ‘handkerchief’.

    John was stating that Jesus’ face was wrapped in a handkerchief (just as the author descibed Lazarus emerging from his tomb with his face wrapped in a ‘soudarion’ in John 11:44 (soudarion is also used to denote handkerchief in Luke 19;20 and Acts 19;12).

  241. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    Joe, any false prophet could say the same thing. Also, where in the Bible does it talk about Jesus “living in your heart”? And why is it when I talk to fundamentalists, I’m always the one invoking sola scriptura?

  242. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    JGC56: I don’t think Joe’s aware the Christian Scriptures were written in Greek. Either that, or he believes that the KJV (most likely) is a perfect and exact translation, a statement utterly ludicrous to anyone familiar with linguistics.

    Back on topic, we know that smallpox killed several hundred million people in the 20th century alone, and we know that thanks to the vaccine, it isn’t around. Does he have an answer to that? Or at least one that doesn’t require one believing seven impossible things before breakfast?

  243. lilady
    November 15, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Joe: How about you stay on topic…which is not your religious beliefs?

    Joe: How about you getting some education about basic science?

    Joe: How about you quit yer bellyachin’ and your pity party and get a J.O.B.?

  244. November 15, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    What would I gain? I watched, a perfectly normal little boy talking and playing with trucks and cars. Pulling his self up, to the TV saying see the ball. As he tracked it, across the screen.

    He has 7 vaccines all at once, one of the 7 was the MMR. At the injection site was a knot the size of a mans fist. So hot, it could burn you to touch it. He ran a high fever,the next day we saw three little mini seizures. And then he was GONE! It’s called encephalopathy.

    In fact, that’s the DX given by his Neurologist (encephalopathy) of unknown etiology.

    Unknown??? He has shots,they caused the fever. Which in turn caused the child’s 3 mini seizures that is known as the encephalopathy. It’s a table injury, we just could not find
    a specialist, that would say that it was the vaccines that caused him to be injured.

    You see, evidently the Dr’s are being threatened by the NIH. They are telling them, that they will see no more NIH grants. If they keep, being professional witnesses.

    For the vaccine injured. We did not know that, at the time. We just thought, we just did not qualify.

    witness tampering in vaccine court? LA times thinks so.

    This was written,by By Myron Levin November 29, 2004

    It clearly,portrays a professional witness in vaccine court being leaned on to discourage his
    further representing of the vaccine injured. By reminding him, they do not like that and they control who gets research grants. Did they do it? witness tampering in vaccine court? LA times thinks so. BTW that’s been removed, from their site. Again caught, Rewriting history.

    That’s, the Evil people you chose to trust.

    Oh! BTW before you call me a liar. Keep in mind, I have the original copy of that article!

  245. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    There’s certainly a clear pattern emerging from Joe’s posts here, Gray. The Sigma MSDS doesn’t actually say what he claims it says, the Gospel of John doesn’t actually say what he claims it says, the evidence regarding vaccine safety and efficacy doesn’t come close to saying what he claims it says…

  246. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    “It’s a table injury, we just could not find
    a specialist, that would say that it was the vaccines that caused him to be injured.”

    Joe, the VICP is set up as a no-fault system–remember? If you’re claiming compensation for a table injury there’s no need to have anyone (expert or otherwise) say vaccines caused it. You only need to establish causation in fact if you’re seeking compensation for an injury other than a table injury.

  247. November 15, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Some of the emails, were read at the Autism hearings in Washington.

    FDA “here’s one “were afraid the public will perceive us asleep at the switch for decades, for allowing this dangerous compound to remain in the vaccines”

    FDA “and it’s no longer going to wash, that there’s no evidence of a risk”

    CDC “how could the FDA approve a preservative,without knowing how much mercury it contained?” “what ease, is lurking we know nothing about?”

    CDC “this was not rocket science,this was ninth grade math” It wasn’t, it was second grade math in Tx. But like the vaccinologist Neil Halsey said “truth is,no one did the calculations”

    FDA or CDC ? “maybe we should treat this like, the Tylenol poisonings”

    “admit that it happened”

    “pull it from the shelves”

    “and then show contrition”

    They didn’t. in fact, they decided to lie! straight faced without flinching. To save an already
    broken, antiquated very out of control dangerous Pharma controlled vaccine program.

  248. Tim Oldsvergen
    November 15, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    You got em’ Joe!!

  249. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that there is no such thing as a conspiuracy and that it is only on your mind.

    At least you are providing us with laughs at your utter ignorance.

  250. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @tim

    And why would you beleive someone that doesn’t provide evidence and only posts ad hominems, insults, and lies?

    It does say a lot about your character and your thought processes.

  251. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    Myron Levin’s article is still available–I found it in less than 30 seconds through google–and I don’t see it aledge witness tampering, Joe. From the article:

    “Early in 2002, Smith was informed by his supervisors, Dr. David Hafler at Harvard and Dr. Howard L. Weiner of Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, where Smith had his clinical practice, that people they respected told them Smith “was ruining his reputation by his testimony in the vaccine program,” according to a document filed in vaccine court.”

    That seems to me to be a rasonable concern, and well within the scope of his supervisors to address. Consider it outside the realm of vaccine safety–if Dr Smith were a climatologist offering expert testimony to support claims that global warming were not occurring or thatt human activities were not contributors to the observed rise in GMT over the past 5 decades, would it be unreasonable for his supervisors to inform of the harm such testimony could potentially do to his reputation as a climatologist?

  252. November 15, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    Guys – Joe is obviously a wacko (and also, I guess, threatening us with bodily harm from his “God”) best just to let him stew….

  253. November 15, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    When they went to the grave, he wasn’t there. He was in the bowels of the earth dealing with
    a fallen angel. At the grave, where they found only his grave clothes. They also found the Napkin folded. John Ch 20 vs 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

    Thus the Jewish tradition, that meant don’t clean up yet! For “I’m coming back”

  254. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    @joe

    Still bearing false witness as well as making threats?

    Keep posting, I am utterly amused at your inane postings and you can keep showing the world how out of touch you are with actual science and reason.

  255. November 15, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    You don’t get it, I truly was sad for them. But God spirit, does not always strive with the soul of man. Who knows, how many other times these two taunted God? God is slow to anger,
    but even he has his breaking point. Remember the flood, only eight souls saved by water.

    The rest, all perished. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah,nothing left but ruble!

    But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

  256. November 15, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Why, did you leave this out?

    Although there were no explicit threats, Chin-Caplan said Smith was told in so many words that he was jeopardizing his access to research funding.

  257. November 15, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Science,has been for sale to the highest bidder for many decades now.

  258. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @joe

    Again, thanks for admitting that you have made threats, have been telling lies, and stated that science is not for sale.

    You’ve been proven a liar many times over, why should anyone beleive you?

  259. November 15, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Parents are smarter than you think,and they can discern what kind of person you are.

    That’s why, the Peds and the CDC are so worried. Their losing this battle, to parents willing to share their most precious loss. A loss, that was due to garbage filled vaccines.

  260. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Post 233: Joe posts incorrect information about the Bible, using erroneous translation.
    Post 243: JGC56 posts correction using actual documented evidence.
    Post 256: Joe posts statement again, knowing he was corrected before, not making any attempt to fix his errors.
    Conclusion: Joe cares nothing about the truth.

  261. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Correction: My post numbers are off by three, I have that many posts in moderation. Sorry about that.

  262. November 15, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    And a parent can see, who’s slinging mud and not!

  263. lilady
    November 15, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    How about getting a J.O.B., because the Vaccine Court is not going to pay you to care for your autistic child, Joe?

  264. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Joe, you’re again speaking as if the text in john was an accurate account of an actual event–why?

  265. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    “Although there were no explicit threats, Chin-Caplan said Smith was told in so many words that he was jeopardizing his access to research funding.”

    I left it out because I felt it went without saying–it should be obvious to anyone who understands grant applications that damaging his reputation would jeopardize his ability to receive funding.

    And that is entirely appropriate. The NIH or any other funding organization should consider an investigator’s scientific reputation as a relevamt criteria when determining whether or not to award funding. Funds for the support of research are limited, adn those overseeing their disbursement have a duty to award them to the best candidates, with the strongest professional record, in the most critical areas of research, available. Don’t you agree?

    .
    in any event the warning receivedHis supervisors the ones decding whether or not he qualifies for funding–the NIH and whatever other bodies awarding protential grants are.

  266. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    Joe Harris :And a parent can see, who’s slinging mud and not!

    Speaking as a parent, it’s obviously you.

    But please, keep posting. Show the whole world how irrational and full of hatred you are. I am enjoying this, if only as entertainment, just to see how far down you will go.

  267. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    BTW, Joe, there is no Jewish tradition involving a folded napkin as a signal that a diner is not yet finished with his meal.

  268. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    Sorry about the run on sent. In any event the warning he received regarding damage to his reputation was from his supervisors, out of concern–not anyone in a position to approve or without grant funding.

  269. November 15, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    That is absolutely crap, that’s just crap. Anyone with an once of discernment,can figure out
    that they were warning him. That they did not care, for researchers that did such.

    It is a well known fact, that the medical community does not like to ever admit they were wrong! Considering, they believe the vaccine program is the greatest gift they gave the
    public. That makes it much harder than ever,for them to admit they may have really
    made the mistake of a lifetime.

    The deck is stacked,against the parents of vaccine damaged children. The CAA, that was supposed to be used to help parents of Autistic children. Has been exclusively used to,
    create science out of thin air. But with Poul Thorsen as an example, that cost runs about 2 million US.dollars. For his, and the CDC’s well planed out scheme. To defraud the American people. . .

  270. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    Mr. Harris: “The deck is stacked,against the parents of vaccine damaged children.”

    For those who are truly injured by a vaccine there is a way for redress through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which will even pay for the lawyers, and almost automatically if the symptom occurs within a certain time period after the vaccine (no real proof needed).

    Now compare that to the stack of those of us whose kids were injured by an actual disease. We get nothing except bills from medical care providers. Plus we get comments from parents like who say our kids would have done well with the actual disease if they were “healthy enough” or had the “right genes”… because “natural selection” is good (eugenics).

    The only thing that is stacked against you, Mr. Harris, is your lack of education, and even worse: how you despise learning.

  271. Tim Oldsvergen
    November 15, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    nova,

    “@tim

    And why would you beleive someone that doesn’t provide evidence and only posts ad hominems, insults, and lies?

    It does say a lot about your character and your thought processes.”

    Right back at you. You appear to be the queen of ad hominems and insults. So tell me why I would be live you? You’re not a nice human being and I would never-ever trust you.

  272. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    Mr. Oldsversgen, can you please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal?

  273. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    Joe’s “napkin” debacle is a good illustration of his thought process:
    1) Start with your intended conclusion.
    2) Look at vaguely related evidence.
    3) Think up things that prove your conclusion.
    4) Be utterly baffled when people call you out as a liar.
    Hint for you, Joe: honesty and humility are supposed to be virtues in Christianity. Don’t assume you’re always right, and don’t lie to us.

  274. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    @tim

    Yawn, nice try at an insult. I beleive that your post shows how little your have for evidence and how quickly you turn to insults instead of presenting evidence.

    Again, you support hoe’s rants, which he/she/it has failed to present evidence for. So, will you actually present some, or will you resort to childish insults like you have just done?

    I do admit, I do relish your attempts at insult, for it shows that you cannot have a coherent argument for your views and it is a tacit admission that you cannot provide any.

  275. Tim Oldsvergen
    November 15, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    Miss Chris….what’s the point? Most people don’t know any better to ask for dose without. Why? Because they haven’t been told Thimerosal is dangerous. Why is that? Please don’t forget aluminum, that will mess you up more than the Thimerosal.

  276. Tim Oldsvergen
    November 15, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    nova,

    “@tim

    Yawn, nice try at an insult. I beleive that your post shows how little your have for evidence and how quickly you turn to insults instead of presenting evidence.

    Again, you support hoe’s rants, which he/she/it has failed to present evidence for. So, will you actually present some, or will you resort to childish insults like you have just done?

    I do admit, I do relish your attempts at insult, for it shows that you cannot have a coherent argument for your views and it is a tacit admission that you cannot provide any.”

    Right back you. I recommend you have a health check up. I have been in the business for a few years and you have all of the signs. Please get a full health check up, if not for you, for your family’s sake.

  277. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Tim: Aluminum is the third most common element in the Earth’s crust. If it was as dangerous as you say it is, we’d have all died long ago. Now tell me, why wasn’t autism even more common before the Clean Air Act was passed?

  278. November 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    That crap! you are comparing inhaled or ingested to injected. Boy are you deceived.

    The route of exposure, is always considered when evaluating Toxicity. Source, FDA

  279. November 15, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Amusing that Mr. Oldsvergen has made a silly excuse to not answer my simple question.

  280. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    @tim

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are here just to troll, and that you cannot provide an answer to Chris.

    Also, don’t assign your mental issues to me, and don’t insult people with real mental illnesses. Your denigration of them is a clear indication that you admit that you admit that your views are not correct and says a lot about you.

    I do admit, your pathetic attempts at insult are amusing, since you must resort to copying my comments. I guess I should be flattered that an anti-vax troll must go to such lengths to attempt to insult me, since it says that they cannot come up with a original insult.

    So please do try again. I do like a fool to laugh at, and you do seem like the perfect one for a few cheap laughs.

  281. novalox
    November 15, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that you know nothing about toxicology or basic grade school biology, much less vaccines.

  282. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Joe, can you not parse the difference between a warning and a threat? Yes, he was warned that his testifying as an expert witness was potentially damaging to his reputation as a scientist, which could affect his ability to qualify for grants, because it could.

    Direct question: do you feel that a candidate’s reputation isn’t a valid criteria to consider when determining if he qualifies to receive a grant?

    “That makes it much harder than ever,for them to admit they may have really
    made the mistake of a lifetime.”

    You know what really, REALLY makes it hard for the medical community to admit they made the mistake of a lifetime with respect to vaccines, Joe? The fact that there’s absolutely no evidence supporting the claim that the development of vaccines and the inauguration of routine childhood vaccine programs was a mistake of any kind whatsoever (coupled with a huge body of evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccine in protecting against infectious diseases such as polio, pertussis, diptheria, smallpox, etc).

  283. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    “Because they haven’t been told Thimerosal is dangerous. Why is that?”

    Because the exposure to thimerosal a child could receive as the result of vaccination, even prior to thimerosal being removed from all but a few multi-dose formulations, wasn’t dangerous. See “Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines”, Pichichero et al, Pediatrics Vol. 121 No. 2 February 1, 2008 pp. e208 -e214.

    “Please don’t forget aluminum, that will mess you up more than the Thimerosal”

    Not from any exposure to aluminum you’d receive as the result of vacination, Tim.
    Aluminum is one of the most ubiquitous elements on the planet and infants are exposed daily to much, much greater amounts of aluminum from dietary and environmental sources than they could possibly receive as the result of immunization.

    To put it in perspective, over the first 6 months of life an infant could be exposed to a maximum of 2.5 mg of aluminum as the result of routine immunizations. During those same 6 months it would be exposed to 10 mgs of aluminum if it’s breast feeding; if receiving formula instead we’re talking about a 40 mgs of aluminum, and as much as 120 mgs if it’s receiving a soy-based formula.

  284. JGC56
    November 15, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    Joe, your evidence thatthat exposure as the result of IM injection as compared to exposure through ingestion increases toxicity sufficiently that the dose received as the result of being vaccinated is harmful would be…what, exactly?

    I mean, you do have evidence? Your argument isn’t simply “Something something route-of-exposure something AUTISM!”, right?

  285. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Another question about aluminum: If injection were the issue, why aren’t people dying left and right from scrapes and paper cuts? Technically, that would also allow aluminum into the bloodstream.

    Seriously, though, the world is not as clean and sterile and most quacks would have us believe it is.

  286. licha hericane
    November 15, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    joe harris, you are my hero!

  287. Gray Falcon
    November 15, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Is it possible “licha hericane” is a sockpuppet? Remember, Joe is willing to lie about his own religion to make himself look good, honest isn’t his strong suit.

  288. Chris
    November 15, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    Of course it is a sock puppet, just like “Joe Oldsvergen.” It is possibly one we have seen before. Perhaps the guy who declared there were no vaccines for bacterial diseases.

  289. lilady
    November 16, 2013 at 12:57 am

    Why doesn’t Joe use his other sockies…JoeJoe or ccdaddy57?

  290. Chris
    November 16, 2013 at 1:09 am

    Myself: “Joe Oldsvergen.”

    Well that was odd… it is “Tim Oldsvergen.” It can’t be a Joe Harris sock puppet because it posts in intelligible English.

  291. Gray Falcon
    November 16, 2013 at 1:53 am

    Oh yeah, the other Joe. The one who cheered on anyone who disagreed with us, even if they were germ theory and Holocaust deniers.

  292. licha hericane
    November 16, 2013 at 11:38 am

    still my hero joe, no matter how many socks these shills say you have ;)

  293. Chris
    November 16, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Ms. Hericane, which vaccines on the present American pediatric schedule are only available with thimerosal? Be a real hero and think for yourself: honestly answer the question.

  294. Amy
    November 16, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    Why are there any?

  295. November 16, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    @Amy – why don’t you name them?

    And in any case, the research has been done to show that thimerosal is safe & the original fears were overblown and shown to be false.

  296. licha hericane
    November 16, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    aw… a ‘shot of PRETENSION’… i got deleted…coz i guess they didn’t like my pun, albeit of how fitting.- don’t trouble yourself amy… these cowardly shills delete anything posted that is counter to their own military and robotic grilling and SHEEPISH dogma

  297. Chris
    November 16, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    So, Licha, instead of answering my simple question you just spew lots of insults? Interesting.

  298. Amy
    November 16, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    Lawrence,
    Multi-dose vials flu vaccine Fluzone, FluLaval, Fluvirin, Afluria, 25 mcg per dose, about the amount of wasp venom in a sting. Trace amounts in many higher than “safe” levels for drinking water.

  299. Chris
    November 16, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    So? Amy, what about the four out of the eight influenza vaccines approved to children that do not have thimerosal? Why do you all deny they exist?

  300. November 16, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    @Amy – also, these series of studies show the safety of thimerosal specifically in vaccines and vaccine safety in general:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Puts that particular anti-vax meme to bed….

  301. Amy
    November 16, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    Chris,
    Where did I deny that they existed? But why are the mercury-containing ones allowed to be sold at all? Lawrence, you appear to not realize the dangers, so please, get all you want for yourself but let others take care of ourselves.

  302. Gray Falcon
    November 16, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Amy, thimerosal is a preservative. It’s for keeping the vaccines from going bad. When it was removed from vaccines, the autism rate remained constant. Therefore, it could not possibly be a factor in causing autism. It is an established fact, one you are no position to dispute.

    Some advice: If you wish to be taken seriously, learn that using the word “mercury” when talking about a compound makes you look incompetent at best, dishonest at worst. Also, remember that vaccine-preventable diseases can kill. Sending someone into a larger risk to prevent a smaller one is reckless at best, malevolent at worst.

  303. November 16, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    Amy, look up Dr.Burbachers research on baby primates. It revealed, that Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the Methyl-Mercury. It had also revealed, that after it entered the brain. It Thimerosal, turns into the inorganic form. At 2.5 times, that as does the fish mercury.

    More on the NIH study,that was revealing a very unpopular inconvenient truth. A truth, that was so damning. That it threatened, their assertion that Thimerosal was as they said time and time again “the friendlier, gentle kind of mercury”. After Dr. Burbacher’s embarrassing findings, they were desperate to neutralize his revelations concerning the Mercury based preservative. A preservative, that was widely used in almost all our children’s vaccines. Except for the ( MMR )

    They tried to use, the absolutely ridiculous findings of a Researcher. Dr.Pichichero.

    Two study’s, one with honest integrity. Who I assure you, after just one personal phone call with him. Had revealed,that his only concern. Was looking after,our children’s health.

    The other, was the kind of researcher. That gives, only part of the picture. He’s hoping, that you have not done your own non bias research. For he had to have known, if you did. His research crumbles, when using common sense and logic & biological toxicology
    of Thimerosal.

    His research, was 200 babies and children, who were injected with vaccines containing ethyl mercury (thimerosa­l). He said, it showed that measurable mercury levels in the blood of the children. Were gone, within 3.7 days. Pichichero­ had said,that this is much quicker than the average 44 days it takes for methyl mercury (found in fish) to be undetectable in the blood. Ergo, he jumps to a conclusion and says. That the exposure to thimerosal, does not cause brain damage or autism! This is just the opposite, of what the Manufacturers MSDS says about the characteristics of Thimerosal. In fact, it states on their MSDS that Thimerosal is accumulative in the body & it targets the organs of the body. In particular, the brain and the lining around the brain. Dr.Thomas Burbacher was the NIH paid researcher on the baby primates study replied. “Not so fast”, says Thomsas Brubacher, M.D., a scientist who studies the biological effects of ethyl mercury on primates. “Just because it came out of the blood dosen’t mean it is excreted from the body. Dr. Burbacher informed him, that it could have gone to the brain. He said, in primates you actually get more mercury in the brain. After the exposure, to ethyl mercury than with methyl mercury – Here’s where Dr Burbacher rips them! and exposes their intentional( meant to mislead ) lies.

    ” It has an easier time, crossing the blood brain barrier ”

    Understand this parents,Dr. Burbacher has no reason to lie. it seems, after taking into consideration the MSDS of Thimerosal. That, Pichichero­s claims are not possible. But Burbachers, are right on track with the findings of the Manufacturer. When one, is using common sense & looking at the statements on the Manufacturers MSDS of Thimerosal.
    One should be wondering why Pichichero was only revealing half truths.

    Parents, Dr. Burbacher said that Thimerosal (Ethyl) crosses the BBB easier than the(methyl) Dr. Burbacher, also said this when talking about what Thimerosal does in the brain. Here’s the kicker, that proves my point. Burbacher’s research, says after it inters into the brain.

    It Thimerosal, turns into Inorganic Mercury by 2.5 times that as does the Fish Mercury.

    Here’s their problem, a Dr. of neurology Dr. Polings daughter (Hannah Poling) received 9 vaccines on one day at one point in time. The amount of mercury, that BTW FYI, that was delivered. All at once, at one point in time. It was in the 10’s of thousands of ppb’s.

    The CDC paid the Polings, 20 million dollars for the vaccines causing her underlying
    Mitochondria problems to turn into Autistic like symptoms. One Google search, on
    what is the most damaging to the Mitochondria. It revealed, two things to be the most damaging to the Mitochondria. And both. are in vaccines. Inorganic mercury, was the
    # 1 culprit. And MSG, was found to be the 2nd.

    Her Mom a nurse, and her Dad a Neurologist, gave a press conference. They wanted to know, why! their Normal daughter Hannah after receiving 9 of the vaccines all at once at one point in time. She (Hannah) became Autistic, in just a few days, after! the vaccines.

    The NVICP and the CDC, they tried to seal the records forever of Hannah’s case.

  304. November 16, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    Amy I blew that pack of lies away. Read my post.

  305. November 16, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    I beleive,that you owe Amy an apology.

    Thiomersal – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Thiomersal is an organomercury compound used as a preservative in vaccines since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination.

    You really, did not know that.

  306. novalox
    November 16, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    @joe

    Again, thank you for admitting that vaccines are safe and that you and the other anti-vax liars owe the regulars an apology for your lies.

    Why should we believe a known liar like you , since you still will not provide any evidence for your assertions?

  307. Gray Falcon
    November 16, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    Joe, what are you talking about? I said it was a preservative, and that it was a compound. What is there to apologize for?

    By the way, would you mind terribly providing evidence for your accusations? We aren’t the kind to take the word of random strangers on the Internet. And don’t claim your authority with God, you’re not the next Elijah, you’re the next Zedekiah son of Chenaanah.

  308. Chris
    November 16, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    Amy: “But why are the mercury-containing ones allowed to be sold at all?”

    Because they are useful, especially in areas where it is difficult to keep up the cold chain.

    And more importantly, they are safe. There is no evidence that thimerosal contributes to autism. In many states, like California, they made it a law that children and pregnant women could only get vaccines without thimerosal. And, yet, the level of autism still increased.

    Thimerosal is safe, and it makes vaccines safer.

    If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher showing that a vaccine with thimerosal is more dangerous than the disease. By qualified I mean someone who actually has the requisite education, so Mr. Blaxill with his Masters in Business Administration does not qualify. By reputable, I mean someone who has not been found with his/her hand in the cookie jar like the Geiers or Chris Shaw (funding from an anti-vax group).

    Surely you have this evidence?

  309. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 12:04 am

    Hello again dear Chris. What good does answering your simple minded questions do when you feel free to delete anything you disagree with? Aside from the bantering fun, trudging through your posts has truly been a waste of my time. You know the drill. Gotta’ run. Children to save from vaccines and all. Buh bye Chris.

  310. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 12:09 am

    licha, Chris isn’t a moderator. She doesn’t have the authority to delete anything on this site. If things are being caught up in moderation for you, perhaps your issue is with your choice of words or too many links in one post.

  311. November 17, 2013 at 12:44 am

    I love your misguided arrogance, lets mention the CDC go to guy. That out of thin air, was able to produce studies. That took, the IQ lowering neural-toxic compound Thimerosal and turned it into a non toxic old solder called Thimerosal.

    Poul Thorsen, who’s been indicted on 13 counts of wire fraud and nine counts of money laundering. There’s a warrant out for his arrest, for his involvement with the CDC in a
    scheme to defraud the American people. Poul got what he wanted, almost 2 million dollars of CAA Autism funds. And the CDC finally found someone that could take a venomous snake and turn it into a harmless kitten.

    Fact, Poul was involved in 22 of the 24 studies. A CDC representative,a few months ago
    perjured her self. When she told Florida’s US. Congressman Bill Posey in the Congressional hearing on Autism. That Poul, was only involved in 2 studies. And his involvement, in those 2 studies was minimal. So the person the CDC sent to represent them, at the hearing,

    Was caught in one lie after another, She lied to a US. Congressman, straight faced without flinching. That’s a felony, why she was not charged. Is, that the system is absolutely corrupt.

    Congressman Posey, said “how many did you say?” The CDC’s spokesperson said two Congressman. He said “no! try 22 of the 24 studies” She should have been led out in handcuffs,for lying to a US. Congressman.

    Lets see you spin that, shills. Oh! Congressman Posey, started by saying to her. I have been informed as to what’s going on here. By the former,Florida Congressman DR. Dave Weldon.

    You care to discredit a congressman, that’s a Dr. that knows that the vaccines are causing Autism?

  312. Chris
    November 17, 2013 at 12:53 am

    Licha: “What good does answering your simple minded questions do when you feel free to delete anything you disagree with?”

    If they are so simple minded, how come you can’t answer them. Also, my name is definitely not “Christine.”

  313. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 12:59 am

    Joe, unless you back your accusations with evidence, all you’re doing is committing libel. See 1 Kings 21 to see why that’s a bad idea.

  314. November 17, 2013 at 1:18 am

    Do you deny, that Poul has been indicted? And, he has a warrant out for his arrest for his alleged theft of almost 2 million dollars?

    Also, do you deny. That the indictment states, that he Poul was working with others known and unknown by their grand jury.

    Maybe you can answer, why here in the land of the free. Where we boast of the freedoms we have, including the one called freedom of the press. That a researcher, that has been caught defrauded the US. CDC. His criminal indictment,never made “Breaking News” status.

    Here I will do it for them. Extra Extra read all about it, the researcher that gave the CDC the studies they needed to avoid criminal indictments. Has himself,been indicted on 22 ct’s of fraud.

    You know who’s worse than those who have done this great evil to children? Those, who are defending their criminal activity.

  315. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 1:36 am

    Joe, I’m not denying Poul was indicted, I’m denying his actions were anything like what you claim they are. The journals themselves show that Poul Thorsen played a minor role in two of them. What’s more, his minor fraud had no effect whatsoever over the results of those two papers.

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/04/19/indictment-for-poul-thorsen/

    See that link? That’s what I’m asking for: Proof for your allegations. Remember what mercy Ahab was given.

  316. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 1:39 am

    Actually, at this point, it’s pretty clear I shouldn’t be answering Joe directly. He never reads anything I say anyways, and anyone who isn’t his sockpuppet can tell he’s utterly delusional.

  317. November 17, 2013 at 2:03 am

    Can you not read and comprehend? US. Congressman Posey, caught her in the same lie! That your trying to push. He told her, No! 22 of the 24 studies! Poul was involved in. You think that theft, of almost 2 million dollars is nothing!

    Are you denying, what the Congressman told her? Again, caught trying to rewrite history.

    Why have they continued to pay Poul, on studies since his indictment? To keep him out! of the US. For he could single handed, bring down the corrupt actors that were working with him on the alleged fraud.

  318. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 2:07 am

    Yes, I am denying what the Congressman told her, if he told her that at all. Once again, Joe Harris seems to think we automatically believe everything he says. It never occurs to him that he’s being held to the same standards as everyone else.

  319. November 17, 2013 at 3:46 am

    You can watch the hearing here. The C-Span video, clip is 59:19 and 2:16:39.

    I missed it by one, the Congressman says Poul was involved in 21 of the 24 studies.

    http://www.c-span.org/Events/Lawmakers-Look-into-Federal-Response-to-Rising-Rates-of-Autism/10737436113-1/

  320. November 17, 2013 at 3:58 am

    You can watch the hearing here. The C-Span video, clip is 1:39.00 and 2:16:39.
    I missed it by one, the Congressman says Poul was involved in 21 of the 24 studies.

    http://www.c-span.org/Events/Lawmakers-Look-into-Federal-Response-to-Rising-Rates-of-Autism/10737436113-1/

  321. November 17, 2013 at 8:58 am

    @Joe – and I’m sure there was a janitor involved in cleaning the labs on every single one of those studies too – unless you can point to actual criminal activity or fraud (or even a problem with the methodology used) in those studies, then continually holding up Thorsen is nothing but a strawman argument, designed to try to get away from the fact that all of the Science disagrees with you…..

    Again, there are all of these studies that disagree with you……(not only disagree, but show that you are utterly and completely wrong):

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    So, care to point out actual “errors in the Science?” Can you even find one?

  322. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 9:18 am

    At least Joe has finally figured out how to give sources for his claims. Too bad he didn’t realize he needs to do so for all his claims.

  323. November 17, 2013 at 9:42 am

    @Gray – yeah, but in this case, it still doesn’t mean anything…..

  324. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 9:56 am

    True, the statement of a Congressman does not trump the text of the indictment and the journal articles. Also, he could have sent us a transcript and some line numbers, rather than make us look through a three hour video.

  325. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 11:22 am

    You’re still my hero Joe Harris. Although you’re butting up against a brick wall here. And as I explained yesterday, before ‘whoever’? deleted me, Gray Falcon [dunno, don't care who], that I know what happens when the smart kids wander onto the bullies playground. You can hold their hands, provide them all the linkers they require, lead the SHEEP to water, but ‘ya can’t make them drink. However, I’ve certainly enjoyed reading your gusto and perseverance while trying. Chris, I apologize if I offended, but I thought I’d copied your name as it showed by your avatar. That’s all the time I have for now ‘pretensions’. as I have a date at the CVS to save people from injecting themselves with the latest toxic cocktail du jour , Ta for now, female whose name is Chris but ‘NOT CHRISTINE’ !?

  326. November 17, 2013 at 11:37 am

    Did you not understand, what you read? Do you know what a clip # is. Ignore the first post.

    I posted another, where I took the time to go through the 3 hour video and get the exact clip # to prove my point. So, even when your proven your wrong. You still, don’t admit to defeat.

    The CDC person that lied to the Congressman,she was caught in the Simpson wood meeting
    showing what kind of epidemiologist she was. She suggested, putting children in the cohorts that were to young. Just, to water down the findings of verstreaten’s work.

    Shes, a real work of art. If you cannot see,that these people that represented HHS and the vaccine program. Were a shining example, whats wrong in government agencies. Stupid &
    corrupt to the core.

  327. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Joe, just because a Congressman says something, doesn’t make it true.

  328. Chris
    November 17, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    Mr. Harris: “Do you deny, that Poul has been indicted? And, he has a warrant out for his arrest for his alleged theft of almost 2 million dollars?”

    Please tell us what part Poul Thorsen had on the following studies, provide verifiable documentation:

    Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
    The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: The first case-control study in Asia.

    Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics. 2010 Oct;126(4):656-64. Epub 2010 Sep 13.
    Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism

    Pediatrics. 2010 Aug;126(2):263-9.
    Lack of association between acellular pertussis vaccine and seizures in early childhood.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214
    Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

    Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63
    Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.

    The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741
    Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study

    licha hericane: “You can hold their hands, provide them all the linkers they require, lead the SHEEP to water, but ‘ya can’t make them drink.”

    What links? What evidence? You and your socks have provided very little of value, or relevance.

    “Chris, I apologize if I offended, but I thought I’d copied your name as it showed by your avatar. ”

    Nothing in my avatar indicates I am a moderator of this blog. Mostly because I am not a moderator. So this was a vacuous accusation: “Hello again dear Chris. What good does answering your simple minded questions do when you feel free to delete anything you disagree with?” I did not delete anything, because I cannot.

    More than likely your “pun” contained words that the automatic moderation caught. Or perhaps the actual moderator, Christine Vara saw it, was offended and deleted it. If you dislike being banned so often, you might want to put a check on that kind of behavior and instead of sock puppets, insults and blatant accusation try using actual verifiable scientific evidence.

  329. November 17, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    Junk in Junk out, at the Congressional hearing on Autism. Congressman Chris Smith, said to
    Mark Blaxal isn’t it true there’s a black balling that occurs? He was talking about, anybody that dares to do certain research. Would be, and have been black balled.

    We must protect our right, to inject poisons into your most precious resource. Notice I said, your most precious resource. You see parents,they know better than to inject their children with this toxic soup. But their more than willing, to inject it into yours.

    Their day of judgement, is coming. The Judge, is one that cannot be bought off.

  330. Chris
    November 17, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    Mr. Harris, what was Poul Thorson’s contribution to the papers I just listed?

    “You see parents,they know better than to inject their children with this toxic soup.”

    Please tell us with verifiable evidence that the DTaP vaccine has more “toxins” that are worse than tetanospasmin, or the toxins created by the diphtheria and pertussis bacteria.

    In short: prove that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis by providing the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher.

  331. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    To many vaccines Chris? VACUOUS ACCUSATION? Calm down and take some deep breaths and then go back and REREAD my post. I never said the word ‘moderator’. That was Gray Falcon. I never even insinuated that you Chris, [not Christine?] had deleted me. That was your misguided perception. I only singled you out because you had asked me a direct question. YOU assumed erroneously, that the ‘you’ in my post above, spoke to you personally, when in fact it was a ‘collective YOU’,[as unified members of this site]; and I referred to the DELETER, [whoever they may be] of a site that deletes without just cause. ‘Banned so often’? Chris, I fear your blatant disregard for heavy metal toxicity has affected your cognitive abilities. I said I was deleted, not banned. While I don’t know Christine, I can state that the deleted post contained nothing more than what s/he [they] have since let stand. I’m not sure why one would label me a sock puppet, when I had also explained in my ‘deleted’ post, that I had happened on your site by accessing a link. I’m sorry that I’ve seemed to upset you ChrisNOTCHRISTINE. A word of advice to the ‘shot of pretentions’ site; use a less rigid debate protocol. Respectfully submitted from a bona fide chicken pox survivor.

  332. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Licha, is it possible for a non-moderator to delete someone’s posts? By the way, you didn’t imply anything, you outright accused her of deleting posts. How does you think you can get away with lying about what you said in a post anyone can read by scrolling upwards?

  333. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    By the way, could you define a “less rigid protocol”? As far as I can tell, you’re asking any accusation made be accepted without question. By the way, I heard Joe Harris actually worships Baal. Think about it, why else is he making Christians look bad?

  334. November 17, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    Here’s your problem, the more educated the parents were the less likely they were to vaccinate. Source, the CDC

  335. November 17, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    No,not Baal. Jesus, the one that one day will judge you for defending child poisoners.

  336. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    Really, Joe? Why should I trust the word of a suspected Baal-worshiper?

  337. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    While I won’t be a party to your religious persecutions, [as I don't know Joe Harris and will NOT assume that I know of his beliefs], I WILL add that this will answer both of your comments. ‘Less rigid protocol’, would be the action of open mindedness, as opposed to your group’s militarily rigid closed mindedness; and acceptance to another’s pov. Case in point, I KNOW WHAT I MEANT WHEN I WROTE THAT POST, AND I STICK BY THE COMPREHENSIBILITY OF THE WAY IT STANDS; ‘You; meaning your group. And how dare you infer otherwise, to the point of accusing me of prevaricating. I don’t lie. Jesus said the liars will be judged with the murderers and the thieves, if ya wanna get all biblical. How could I know who can delete or not? I never professed to, and you all…[there, I’ll use the southern dialect since YOU… [collective 'you' meaning group and not just Gray Falcon] fail to comprehend the grammar of ‘collective you- ALL line up like a group of sheepish gestapo, afraid to think for yourselves, while you insist all who disagree with you to be liars. Yes! Shot of PRETENSION DOES FIT. Either you [collective YOU] or [you all] lack the intellect, or it’s pride that precludes YOU from adequately participating in a valid debate… [meaning opposing view] WITHOUT ENDING UP CALLING EVERYONE A LIAR. So admit you’re wrong Gray Falcon. Admit you could have erred in your pretentious presumption that I accused Chris of deleting me, opposed to my statement that I was referring to members of sop as a group, in deleting me. Come on… you can do it; it’ll be your first lesson in an unbiased debate. Gotta’ run. I’m in the middle of chelating the feral cats. Regards Gray Falcon.

  338. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Why aren’t you open-minded enough to accept that your hero’s really a closeted heathen?

  339. November 17, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    @licha – comprehensible? not so much…..

  340. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Seriously, though, there’s something you have to understand. We aren’t rejecting your statements out of hand, we’re asking for evidence. As I was attempting to illustrate, anyone can make accusations. Real scientific debate is about evidence. That is, we need to see it for ourselves, we’re not just going to take a random stranger at their word that, say, someone worships a pagan deity.

  341. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Why aren’t you open-minded enough to accept that your hero’s really a closeted heathen?

    Because I don’t KNOW Joe. And to address Lawrence, the stupidest thing you will ever hear a REAL scientist say, is ‘the fact that ALL OF SCIENCE DISAGREES WITH YOU’. True scientists thrive on questioning and proving and disproving. They never ASSUME that there won’t be a new upset in the latest string theory of relativity, etc. Comprehensible. You like that word Lawrence? Here’s some words that I DON’T LIKE… ‘GOAT HERDER!?’ I fear I’ve accidently stumbled into the playpen of 12 yr. olds. Where’s the camera. Huh? Alas, I’ve played long enough, and it’s time to go wash the ‘monsanto’ off my dinner. Nitie nite babies.

  342. Chris
    November 17, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    Licha: “True scientists thrive on questioning and proving and disproving.”

    And that is what I am doing, asking you questions with the request the answers contain actual science. I have an open mind, all you have to do is provide the verifiable evidence. So please provide the scientifically verifiable evidence that the ingredients in the DTaP vaccine are more toxic than the toxins created by the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis infections. To help us find it, just post the PubMed Identification Number, and do make sure that the author is both qualified and reputable.

    Also, don’t break the CAPs lock key by pounding on it so hard.

  343. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    Licha, what makes you think you’re not subjest to questioning and disproval?

  344. licha hericane
    November 17, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Licha, what makes you think you’re not subjest to questioning and disproval?

    Sorry! I don’t speak ‘pretentious’. Maybe another place and time, but my critical research is spent elsewhere. So I don’t understand how you and Chris thought I even wanted to play this game. Remember that I said I ended here by a link? And what can I say? I’m a sucker for an underdog, and couldn’t help but see how you ganged up on Joe; but even more so, how obnoxious, biased and self righteous you ALL are. [And 'Chris NOT Christine', my keyboard is just fine, but thanks for the concern]. I only posted to cheer Joe on, and to be so presumptuous as to ASSUME your next question; ‘no’, I have no clue who Joe Harris is. You act like it’s some LAW that the poster has to do all the legwork for you. I even saw the snide remark about having to sift through a 3 hr. documentary. Do your own research when someone offers you an idea. But I’ll go out on a limb here and ASSUME that no matter how much Joe or other posters held your hand, and spoon fed you the data you seem to require, that you’d stubbornly and pridefully find any irrational excuse to dismiss. Some people just aren’t tolerant of diversity and life outside of their own little blogs. Even had I been interested in your subject matter, THIS would be why I wouldn’t waste my precious time on your site. It’s been fun, but I’m due at the rh negative bun in the oven clinic. Mwah!

  345. Chris
    November 17, 2013 at 7:50 pm

    “Even had I been interested in your subject matter, THIS would be why I wouldn’t waste my precious time on your site.”

    is the second, third or fourth time you have told us this, yet returned.

    “It’s been fun, but I’m due at the rh negative bun in the oven clinic. Mwah!”

    Wow, a non-emergency clinic that is open on a Sunday? Wow.

  346. Gray Falcon
    November 17, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    “Sorry! I don’t speak ‘pretentious’.

    Let me rephrase to a grade-school level. If science is about questioning and disproving, as you say, then why are we not allowed to question what you say? Why should we believe everything Joe says?

    I’m a sucker for an underdog, and couldn’t help but see how you ganged up on Joe; but even more so, how obnoxious, biased and self righteous you ALL are.

    Joe insulted us, accused of wrongdoing, and refused to play by any rules but his own. He wasn’t simply self-righteous, he acted like he was sent by God. We had every right to “gang up” on him, it’s call self-defense.

    Some people just aren’t tolerant of diversity and life outside of their own little blogs.

    That better describes you and Joe than anyone else here. Why else would you yell at us for asking for evidence, like normal people would?

  347. novalox
    November 17, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    @licha

    Again, thank you for admitting that vaccines are safe and effective and that you are a liar.

    You won’t provide any evidence, why should anyone believe you?

  348. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    There’s no evidence TO provide that vax is SAFE. In fact there are many precautions listed, as with any pharmaceutical; so like Clinton, I guess it depends on what your idea of ‘safe’ is. Perhaps those naive enough to believe gov;t. propaganda and shills like on this site, willing to swallow all the pharma/monsanto/barium poison the gov’t shoves down their throats, may deem it safe. Anyone falling onto this site, considers the source after reading through all your bullshit. However, you look foolish Novalax, calling me a liar, as I never posted one way or the other, and had inquired several times as to why I would waste my valuable time spoon feeding blind sheep? Shot of PRETENSIONS, your ‘you are a LIAR’ mantra, suits this site well. Unfortunately, Novalax, some of us don’t work as gov’t shills and have REAL work to do, so I can’t stick around for your dogmatic pomp and circumstance. You and your chemically induced 12 yr. old friends here, can continue to play under those barium filled contrails, and leave people like me, Joe and Amy to clean up your mess. Of course the children are the ones to suffer. Those who don’t take a stand against ALL the environmental toxins we expose them to, may as well inject the poisons directly into their small bodies. No need for any of you to reply, because your intellect only goes as far as ‘you are a liar’, and unlike you, I have a planet full of children to SAVE. Good bye pretensions.- ps. anyone calling someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, IS A LIAR. ;)

  349. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    Actually, there is evidence that vaccines are safe. See the list of articles Chris posted earlier, among other things. If you wish to dispute it, prepare to provide evidence.

  350. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    By the way, licha, would you mind being open-minded enough to at least examine our evidence, and not just call us liars because we disagree with you?

  351. Amanda
    November 18, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Grey Falcon (et al),
    Did you not read what Linda put about the company that confirmed her son’s mercury toxicity from vaccines? Most children are never tested, but among those who are, many have tested positive for mercury poisoning. With the flu vaccine recommendation for infants and children being new in 2004, at the same time they took mercury out of most vaccines, they started giving it annually to children complying with the schedule, 25 mcg per dose. So you cannot say that there is no more mercury in childhood vaccines, autism rates continue to go up, so that couldn’t have been a cause of autism.

  352. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    Amanda, four things you didn’t read on this thread:
    1) Mercury is an element, thimerosal is a compound. Mistaking the two is a good way to get an F in chemistry.
    2) All vaccines on the market have versions available without thimerosal as a preservative.
    3) The tests were confirmed by Lab Corp of America, a notoriously dishonest company, and are highly suspect at best.
    4) Last I checked, the law of conservation of mass still applies, so the micrograms of thimerosal multiplying in the body enough to cause mercury poisoning is impossible.
    So yes, I can say that.

  353. JGC56
    November 18, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Have you actually read Burbacher’s study, Joe?

    It reports no findings of toxicity associated with thimerosal exposure through vaccination, and like Pichichiero reported the half-life of elimination of methyl mercury to be significantly shorter than that of methyl mercury (between 2.1 and 8.6 days for EtHg, compared to 21.5 days for Me Hg). Although the average brain-to-blood concentration ratio was slightly higher for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (3.5 +/- 0.5 vs. 2.5 +/- 0.3) the concentrations of total Hg in the brain was 3-fold lower for thimerosal-exposed monkeys than MeHg exposed monkeys.

    It’s true that Burbacher does note that a higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%), but given the 3 fold reduction in total mercury exposure coupled with no findings of toxicity associated with exposure to thimerosal his conclusion is NOT that thimerosal exposure engenders risk but that “The results indicate that MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg”.

    Burbacher has in fact confirmed Pichichero’s findings that EtHg has a much shorter half-life of elimination compared to MeHg, results in three fold less total Hg accumulation compared to MeHG, and that mercury exposure due to vaccines containing thimerosal does not engender risk due to mercury toxicity

  354. JGC56
    November 18, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    “And to address Lawrence, the stupidest thing you will ever hear a REAL scientist say, is ‘the fact that ALL OF SCIENCE DISAGREES WITH YOU’.”

    Even when it is the case and all available evidence fails to be compatible with a proposed hypothesis, and the person proposing it is completely unable to point to new or previously overlooked evidence in its support?

    If someone told you that measles was caused by elf-shot or demonic attack, rather than a viral infection, would it be stupid to tell them all of science disagreed with them?

  355. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    JGC56 :
    “And to address Lawrence, the stupidest thing you will ever hear a REAL scientist say, is ‘the fact that ALL OF SCIENCE DISAGREES WITH YOU’.”
    Even when it is the case and all available evidence fails to be compatible with a proposed hypothesis, and the person proposing it is completely unable to point to new or previously overlooked evidence in its support?
    If someone told you that measles was caused by elf-shot or demonic attack, rather than a viral infection, would it be stupid to tell them all of science disagreed with them?

    Of course! Science is all about questioning and disproving, so you have to accept any alternative explanation without question and make no attempt to disprove it!
    Do these people listen to themselves?

  356. Chris
    November 18, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Amanda: “Did you not read what Linda put about the company that confirmed her son’s mercury toxicity from vaccines?”

    So? It is still an anecdote, which does not make it data. We have no reason to accept that over the several papers I have listed on this page. Just like I don’t think you should accept my anecdote about my oldest being injured by an illness before its vaccine was available.

    But if you have actual evidence that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis then please share that PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher.

    “With the flu vaccine recommendation for infants and children being new in 2004, at the same time they took mercury out of most vaccines, they started giving it annually to children complying with the schedule, 25 mcg per dose.”

    Citation needed that the majority of children received that vaccine during that year. Because I am not seeing that even for this year:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm

    I had trouble getting influenza vaccines for younger kids up to just about five years ago. It seems due to lack of supply those with health issues like my oldest were first in line. These issues are discussed in Influenza Vaccination Coverage Among Children Aged 6–23 Months — United States, 2005–06 Influenza Season, which says:

    Coverage for fully vaccinated was estimated at 17.8% for 2004–05, compared with 20.6% for 2005–06. For the 2005–06 season, only one in five children aged 6–23 months was fully vaccinated, and only one in 10 children needing 2 doses received both doses. Influenza vaccination coverage varied substantially among states; no state had more than 40% of children fully vaccinated.

    If you are going to claim that the influenza vaccine caused “mercury poisoning” starting almost a decade ago, please be prepared to give some real numbers.

  357. JGC56
    November 18, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    “Did you not read what Linda put about the company that confirmed her son’s mercury toxicity from vaccines?”

    Yes Amanda, i did, and responded by asking too relevant and critical questions:

    Were the tests which showed her son had elevated mercury levels performed provoked, or unprovoked tests?

    How exactly did her physicians determine th mercury detected could only have come from vaccines he’d received?

    She has yet to answer.

    “So you cannot say that there is no more mercury in childhood vaccines, autism rates continue to go up, so that couldn’t have been a cause of autism.”

    We can however, since the US isn’t the only nation to maintain immunization records or to have investigated the possibility that a causal association between thimerosal and autism exists.

    Thimerosal was removed as a preservative from ALL vaccines given to children in Denmark in 1992/1993, and from all vaccines given to children in Canada in 1996, for example. The incidence of autism spectrum disorders did not decease in these countries after its removal.
    Unless it’s reasonable to believe thimerosal acts differently within the borders of the continental United States than it does elsewhere in the world, this is strong evidence rebutting thimerosal exposure as a possible cause of autism.

  358. JGC56
    November 18, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    I’m certainly as willing to accept that a causal association between childhood vaccination and development of autism spectrum disorders exists as I am any other proposed hypothesis–for example, that cold fusion can be achieved. For either claim all that’s necessary to convince me is a sufficient body of actual evidence this is the case to counter the existing evidence that it is not.

    So Licah, Amanda–got any?

  359. novalox
    November 18, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    @licha

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are a liar, that the regulars here are telling the truth, and that your position is incorrect.

    Why would anyone beleive a liar like you, since you have consistently refused to post anything to support your viewpoints.

    Also, thank you for admitting that I am morally superior to you. I do appreciate an admission from someone so nonsensical as you. I feel that it is a badge of honor every time an anti-vax liar has to resort to such tactics, for it is an admission that they know that their argument is invalid,

    @JGC56

    Judging from the bankruptcy of their arguments, probably not. But it still will be fun to see what drivel they will attempt to post.

  360. JGC56
    November 18, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    As Joe Harris’ last attempt to post evidence that the thimerosal present in some vaccine formulations is dangeroulsy toxic was to cite Burbacher’s results confirming Pichicheiro’s finding that it isn’t, so I think the problem is not only that they don’t have any evidence in support of their claims but also they wouldn’t be able to recognize it if it did actually exist.

  361. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    Blind sheep Amanda. They are hopeless. Run away! FAST! And never look back!…Or you could ask the shills what we push on our 3rd world children, as they innocently trust that they are being helped. Ouch!

    Dear Novalax, thank you again for admitting how delusional you are and how inferior your thought process is, likely due to the toxins built up in your system. Since as you admit that you are no match for me, just by your inane and childish posts, I have a good chelation doctor I could recommend. Or there’s ECT. I hope these help.

    LIARS LIARS LIARS LIARS LIARS…. I KNOW THEY LOVE THAT WORD! LIARS LIARS

    BEWARE OF THE SHILLS ON THIS SITE!

    Run Amanda Run, unless you want to spoon feed and babysit a site of pretentious 12 yr. olds, to lazy to do their own homework and THINK FOR THEMSELVES; only to have them puke all over you, by calling posters liars.

    Got ‘nuthin’ better Novalax? Yawn…continue filing my nails, while they idiotically pat themselves on their backs using their zoloft riddled little brains.

    Why oh why did I click that link leading to PRETENSIONS?

    ps.-anyone calling someone who’s not a liar, a liar, is a LIAR. ;)

  362. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Licha, do you have any evidence supporting your accusations of us being “shills”? If you have to resort to libel, perhaps you’re not as righteous as you think you are.

  363. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Actually, there is evidence that vaccines are safe. See the list of articles Chris posted earlier, among other things. If you wish to dispute it, prepare to provide evidence.

    How about you prove that no person was ever made sick from vax. I can’t WAIT to see proof of that. Going back to grammar, if they’ve harmed ‘anyone’, THEY AIN’T SAFE. PROVE IT! Prove no ones ever been harmed by a vax.

    You want the innocent to believe what you SHILL, the burden of proof is on YOU!

    Applause! Applause! Thank you! Thank you very much. Licha has left the building; coz she knows THIS ain’t happening.

  364. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    licha, people have died from eating, from driving, and from breathing. Does that make those “unsafe”? Perhaps your issue is your standards are unreasonable.

    Now tell me, why do you call us “shills”? Do you have any evidence that we’re paid to post? Since we aren’t, I can be certain that you do not.

  365. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Licha, do you have any evidence supporting your accusations of us being “shills”? If you have to resort to libel, perhaps you’re not as righteous as you think you are.

    Sweetie, you [all/collective you] drew 1st blood by calling me and any other poster who disagrees with you, a liar. If anyone is ‘LIBULL’ it’s pretensions.

  366. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    That doesn’t make lying about us right, and you know it.

  367. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    Gray Falcon :I
    licha, people have died from eating, from driving, and from breathing. Does that make those “unsafe”? Perhaps your issue is your standards are unreasonable.
    Irrational! Irrational! Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Please use a modicum of common sense Gray Falcon.

  368. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    That doesn’t make lying about us right, and you know it.

    Back at you Gray Falcon. I was mortally wounded to be called a liar by such fine shills, crying all night, wiping the bromide tears from eyes.

  369. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    I am using common sense. Common sense tells me that it is impossible to entirely remove risk, only manage it. There is nothing on the planet that is “safe” by your standards. Unless you have a perfect solution for dealing with communicable diseases, I suggest you reconsider your standards.

    And if you have a hard time with big words, perhaps you shouldn’t be debating science.

  370. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    Again, licha, does that give you any right to be cruel and dishonest?

  371. licha hericane
    November 18, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    Gray Falcon :Here’s 2 words that aren’t big… short and sweet and even 12 yr. old approved. ‘FIRST BLOOD’. Go back and read the obnoxious jabs, such as ‘goat herder’, etc., that you [collective you] use to insult any poster that you disagree with. That and calling everyone a LIAR.

    In all my research, I’ve never seen such immaturity. I majored in biology. How about you?
    Again, licha, does that give you any right to be cruel and dishonest? I can hardly be considered dishonest for calling someone who’s wrongly called me a liar, a LIAR.

  372. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    licha, if you were telling the truth, you could have provided evidence for your claims. Your refusal to do so is suspicious, to say the least.

    Also, is this how your parents raised you?
    “Mom, the teacher’s asking me hard questions!”
    “Here, let me help you spread false rumors about her.”

  373. Chris
    November 18, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    “Licha has left the building; coz she knows THIS ain’t happening.”

    Promises, promises. When are you going to actually do what you say?

  374. Gray Falcon
    November 18, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    Soon, I hope. The next time she returns, this site may soon collapse under the weight irony.

  375. dingo199
    November 18, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    I seem to have missed all the fun. Never mind…..

  376. novalox
    November 18, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    @licha

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are a liar, that you are a simple anti-vax shill, and that you have never graduated with a degree in any of the hard sciences.

    I do admit, I find your histrionics funny, if only just because I know I have gotten on your nerves and that since your position is utterly untenable, you have to resort to such infantile insults.

    Again, thanks for the cheap laughs, since it seems that’s all your posts are good for.

  377. licha hericane
    November 19, 2013 at 11:58 am

    Aw -you all MISSED ME. I only mirror what I see there. Buh bye for now Novalax.
    ps -any who calls someone who’s not a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  378. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Licha, have you ever wondered why you have no friends?

  379. Chris
    November 19, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    “Licha has left the building; coz she knows THIS ain’t happening.”

    Obviously not yet. Le sigh.

  380. November 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    @Gray -there is a bit of irony around licha calling people liars, when she continues to say she’s leaving, then she comes back….doesn’t that make her a liar?

  381. JGC56
    November 19, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    “How about you prove that no person was ever made sick from vax. I can’t WAIT to see proof of that. Going back to grammar, if they’ve harmed ‘anyone’, THEY AIN’T SAFE. PROVE IT! Prove no ones ever been harmed by a vax.”

    No one is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe, or that no one ever suffers an adverse event following vaccination.

    What we are saying–and supporting with large bodies of facts–is that the safety profile of vaccines has been extensively characterized and is well understood. Common side effects associated with vaccines are minor and transient (e.g. soreness at the side of injection, low grade fever, etc.) and serious or lasting side effects (e.g, encephalopathy, Guillian Barr) are almost vanishingly rare. Any rational risk/benefit comparison of vaccination versus remaining vulnerable to infection by the pathogens they protect against comes down overwhlmingly in favor of routine childhood immunization.

    If your standard for medical intervention is going to be “absolutely, 100% guaranteed zero chance of causing any side effect, major or minor, whatsoever!”, you’ve pretty much limited yourself to relying only on homeopathic preparations, which exhibit no side effects for the simple reason they don’t actually do anything biological at all–they’re just water..

  382. novalox
    November 19, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    @licha

    Again, than you for admitting that you are lying and that all you can do here is lie.

    Also, thank you for admitting that you have no standing here, and that you cannot hold an argument against me.

    Finally, I thank you for your admission that you admit that you lost the argument and admit that vaccines are safe relative to the diseases they protect against.

    I do admit, I am having a laugh at you, since all you can do is lie and lie again, and make infantile insults at me, for I take it as a badge of honor. I do feel that you cannot make a coherent argument, and your posts show that.

    So thank you again, for showing what the typical anti-vaxxer liar thinks.

  383. licha hericane
    November 19, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    Never set out to argue ANYTHING on YOUR playpen of a site. Just pointing out fax of to many vax. Seems the side effects are obnoxious behavior and calling anyone who disagrees with you a liar. Careful boys and girls lest you become one of them.

    and always remember kiddies, anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  384. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    Licha, I don’t care if you didn’t set out to argue anything, we aren’t going to believe a total stranger’s word for anything. If you provided proof that you’re telling the truth, that would have been enough. Instead, you chose to rant angrily about how evil we are, and spread lies about us. That is not the behavior of an honest person.

    And no, “first blood” does not apply, this isn’t a knife fight. If you want us to stop calling you a liar, prove to us you aren’t a liar. Your refusal to do so does you no favors.

  385. Scotty
    November 19, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Licha: Keep spreading the good word! Don’t bother posting here, the only 100 or so people that follow this blog are all vaccine supporters and you won’t be changing their minds. And you have already figured out they aren’t too friendly either.

  386. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    Could somebody check “Scotty”‘s IP address? It seems suspicious we have yet another cheerleader showing up when the heat gets too strong for one poster.

  387. November 19, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    I never knew that asking for “evidence” was being mean…..

  388. Scotty
    November 19, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    God forbid there are any cheer leaders. You just proved you are a bully.

    Lawrence, “only asking for evidence” I’m sure that logic doesn’t work on your wife.

  389. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    Scotty, if all you do is cheer people on, then technically, you’re not contributing meaningfully to the discussion. Plus, it’s actually quite common for people to create sockpuppets to do that. So it isn’t bullying, it’s a perfectly legitimate question.

    And yes, we were asking for evidence. It’s a scientific issue, evidence is central to science.

  390. licha hericane
    November 19, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Why thank you Scotty. I tired to drill it into Chris and others, that I stumbled onto this site with absolutely no agenda. If they’d care to re read my posts, they would learn that I made no claims one way or another. I only signed on to post when I saw how they attempt to intimidate anyone who disagrees and began to call posters immature names like ‘goat herders; while continually calling them liars. I gave others the same message you’re giving me, ‘beware of vax impaired mentality!’ But they called out for me again today, in despair, because they missed me and my TOTALLY GENUINE SENSE OF HONEST DECORUM.

    You are the second person with who they correlate me, lovingly naming me a sock puppet as well as a liar. I never lied about anything. Never presented a case yea or nay. I like you, just didn’t care for their gestapo tactics.

    Knock yourselves out researching our ip addresses; they think you are me Scotty, and they thought I was Joe. Attention readers; ‘shot of pretensions’ vax to the max dogma may induce effects of delusional paranoia. Enter site with caution.

    ps. sites who habitually call anyone who isn’t a liar, a liar, are LIARS! ;)
    pss. see ‘ya on the flip side Scotty. :)

  391. novalox
    November 19, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    @licha\

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are a liar and conceding the argument,

    Also, calling Godwin’s law.

  392. novalox
    November 19, 2013 at 9:28 pm

    @scott

    So, will you answer the questions asked of licha, cindy, and joe? They’ve had their opportunity and have consistently failed to answer the questions asked of them

    @licha

    I forgot, thanks for admitting that I am more truthful than you can ever hope to be.

  393. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    “Honest decorum?” Seriously? You had no qualms calling us “shills”, you know. And if we were using gestapo tactics, your head wouldn’t be connected to your body right now.

  394. November 19, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Tone trolls are the worst…..

  395. licha hericane
    November 19, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Novalax is a prime example boys and girls, of what happens to brains on heavy metal toxins. S/he hears and SEES things that aren’t really there. Enter this site at your own risk.

  396. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    licha, if you’re telling the truth, why aren’t you providing us with evidence? And no, “because you’ll delete my posts” isn’t a good enough excuse.

  397. novalox
    November 19, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    @licha

    Ah, keep trying little troll, keep trying.

    Also, thank you for admitting that you cannot answer the questions posed of you, and that you still admit to being a liar and anti-vax shill.

    But please, keep on trying to insult me, I do appreciate your admission that you are morally inferior to me and that you cannot come up with a actual response, relying only on infantile and inchoate insult. And I still appreciate the laughs you continue to bring with your posting.

    So keep on posting, I need the cheap chuckles at your expense, and you seem like the perfect fool for it.

  398. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 12:38 am

    Still seeing those hallucinations of imaginary posters admitting guilt Novalax? I’m happy to oblige you with a dose of daily comic REALITY…. pointing out to the unfortunate, accidental wanderers onto your site, that…

    anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  399. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 12:45 am

    Licha, if you were telling the truth, why didn’t you answer our questions? Why didn’t you provide the evidence? By pointedly refusing to do so, you effectively declared you had no evidence.

    Oh, and the “goat herder” bit wasn’t an insult, it was pointing out that a religious text is not a scientific text.

  400. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 1:48 am

    Here’s an example of what I’m asking for: Joe made the claim

    Joe Harris :
    Here’s your problem, the more educated the parents were the less likely they were to vaccinate. Source, the CDC

    However, actually looking at the CDC website produced the following:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/default.htm#nis

    Searching through all the records, I could find nothing remotely resembling Joe’s claim. Perhaps Joe wasn’t telling the truth after all.

  401. Chris
    November 20, 2013 at 2:18 am

    “Licha has left the building; coz she knows THIS ain’t happening.”

    And yet she is still here. Le sigh.

  402. novalox
    November 20, 2013 at 2:58 am

    @licha

    Again, thank you for admitting that you are a liar. Also, thank you for admitting that vaccines are safe and effective, since you consistently refuse to show any evidence for your assertions.

    Second of all, don’t project your issues with the truth to others and don’t denigrate those with actual mental issues. Your continual lies and constant use of insults says a lot about you and your position.

    But I do take honor that you must constantly resort to infantile insults and slurs. It shows your own moral bankruptcy and that you haven’t a leg to stand on. I feel that it is a badge of honor to force such a simple troll like you to continually insult me, showing that you cannot answer the questions posed to you.

    Keep posting, I need more laughs at your stupidity, since it seems that’s all you are good for.

  403. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:51 am

    Another thing licha needs to realize: Someone who calls someone who isn’t lying a liar could simply be mistaken. Her failure to recognize this speaks volumes about her mindset.

  404. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 10:36 am

    Novalax! The epitome of FALSE repetitive, redundant rhetoric. I offered ‘PRETENSIONS’ lessons in diplomatic debate exchange, but your bulldog mentality could only respond with slander, naming me a liar.

    I’m sorry that you have MENTAL ISSUES ‘LAX, but you should have thought of that before injecting yourself full of unnecessary chemical compounds. We understand that you can ‘make up’ all the BADGES you want in lala land. In your vax riddled brain, I’m sure that you’ve ‘honored’ yourself with a purple heart, and nobel peace prize, while you were at it. Perhaps a trial of gently applied electricity to your frontal lobe, could reverse the damage, and relieve you of the IMAGINARY posters you must see and hear in your head. Or maybe lay off the zoloft a bit, since you clearly suffer from these hallucinations.

    Continuing with the ‘admission/liar’ mantra makes you look good only to yourself and a few of your playmates. To all other readers, it’s YOU who looks foolish, so laugh away.

    Falcon, if LAX wants to apologize for mistakenly’ stating that I’m a liar, I would forgive them.

    Until then, anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  405. November 20, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Is it just me or does licha become more incoherent with every post?

  406. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Licha, nearly everyone reading would recognize novalox as sarcastic, rather than delusional. You are making no effort whatsoever to prove you’re telling the truth, nor any effort to debunk the corrections to your statements. Instead, you self-righteously declare that you’re telling the truth. Never mind that I could do the exact same thing with my accusations of Baal worship. If you are telling the truth, why aren’t you proving it?

    By the way, we aren’t going to apologize unless you show that you really are telling the truth. You know, with evidence. I managed to show Joe was lying about the CDC, so it’s a bit of an uphill battle. Why do insist on making this so hard on yourself? Why can’t you just answer our questions? If you’re telling the truth, surely you can give an answer, right?

  407. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Gray Falcon, novalox is delusional. If he/she isn’t delusional, then he/she has some other big issues. A typical person doesn’t act like that. It’s way beyond sarcasm.

  408. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    Lawrence, it isn’t tone trolling if it is the truth. Somebody acting nasty is somebody acting nasty. Ironically, you accusing me of tone trolling, is by definition, tone trolling.

  409. November 20, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    @Scotty – coming in here & claiming that “asking for evidence is mean” is tone trolling…..and I thought I was accusing licha of tone-trolling, not you – unless you are a sock puppet?

  410. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Gray Falcon, “Another thing licha needs to realize: Someone who calls someone who isn’t lying a liar could simply be mistaken. Her failure to recognize this speaks volumes about her mindset.”

    Mistaken? Possibly if it were a civil conversation, but not the way novalox acts. Your failure to recognize what novalox is, speaks volumes about your mindset.

  411. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Lawrence, nobody ever claimed that asking for evidence is mean. And how would I know you were accusing someone else? You didn’t address anybody. You know exactly what is going on here, why play games? I assume you understand and comprehend everything you read, so it is quite obvious who is a bully and who isn’t.

  412. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Scotty, let’s say a politician is pushing a new program. And let’s say a reporter points out several false statements he makes in support of the program. If, rather than address the issue, the politician tries to change the subject or calls the reporter the scum of the earth, wouldn’t you agree that he’s tacitly admitting that he knows his statements are false?

  413. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Scotty, can you give me a concrete example of this bullying, rather than vague allegations?

    Rhetorical question. No tone troll has ever answered that one honestly.

  414. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Gray…your are being ridiculous. I assume the reporter in your example is novalox?

    Did the reporter say this, “Again, thank you for admitting that you are a liar. Also, thank you for admitting that vaccines are safe and effective, since you consistently refuse to show any evidence for your assertions. Keep posting, I need more laughs at your stupidity, since it seems that’s all you are good for.”

    By the way, that is your example of bullying.

  415. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Scotty, if she wasn’t lying, then why wasn’t she addressing our questions?

  416. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    You know what assuming does right? Because somebody doesn’t answer a question, that makes them a liar? Maybe she doesn’t answer the questions because of the way she is being treated? People tend not to react well when they are being attacked.

  417. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Gray, so you don’t agree that novalox is a bully? Was my example not good enough?

  418. November 20, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    @Scotty – so, you’ve jumped on the AoA “everyone that disagrees with us is a bully” train, have you?

    How about discussing the actual topic at hand?

  419. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Since I, [nor have many of the other posters LAX speaks of], never admitted to concession of any sort, and certainly have NOT admitted to being a liar, one can only deduce that LAX suffers delusions and speaks to things that aren’t there; that they’ve lost touch with reality.

    Falcon, please offer the ‘specific’ post where you and Chris seem to imagine that I offered to engage your game on YOUR playground. To the contrary, I stated, that having considered the source, of your [collective your] shot of pretensions site, that I wouldn’t t waste my time in technical debate, only to be dismissed by the blind sheep gestapo. You erroneously assume that I agreed to debunk something for you.??? Please show my post where I offered ANY technical argument at all. There IS none.

    Since any HONEST, non lying person, would of course, take offense over *continually* being called a liar when they are not, you owe me an apology. And out of the kindness of my heart, [and my greatly tolerant upbringing], I’ll sincerely forgive you. So set up the lie detector, because I am surely truthful when I claim that I don’t lie.

    Or I can be like LAX and just type up ‘thank you for apologizing pretensions and apology accepted’. Tisk tisk; calling honest posters liars.

    Give LAX my best in keeping all their many medals polished while of course overcoming their cognitive disability.

    Regards LAX, oh and… mantra to mantra -anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ‘)

  420. November 20, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Except you keep saying that you’re leaving, yet you don’t go…..that’s not honesty….

  421. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Scotty – so, you’ve jumped on the AoA “everyone that disagrees with us is a bully” train, have you?
    How about discussing the actual topic at hand?

    Better than jumping on the ‘everyone who disagrees with us is a LIAR’ bandwagon. I enjoyed you example Scotty, and thanks for that. No need to defend me though. This is my ‘playtime’ therapy for kicks. And because of timing, I’ll now again be accused of being a puppet and a LIAR.

    Caution; frequenting this site will increase your chances of being called a liar.

    Anyone calling someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;) mwah! :)

  422. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Lawrence, “everyone who doesn’t agree with us is a bully?” why would you say that? I accused one person and gave an example. Do you just make this stuff up?
    What question do you have for me Lawrence?

  423. November 20, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Have a talk with Dr. Burbacher, I did. He took his valuable time, to chime in to tell everyone that Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the Methyl-mercury (found in fish) He did that,because it’s so safe. Right?

    Pay close attention,here’s where Dr Burbacher rips them! and exposes their intentional
    ( meant to mislead ) Misinformation, AKA lies.

    Dr.Thomas Burbacher, the NIH paid researcher on the baby primates study replied.

    “Not so fast”, says Thomsas Brubacher, M.D., a scientist who studies the biological effects of ethyl mercury on primates. “Just because it came out of the blood doesn’t mean it is excreted from the body. Dr. Burbacher informed him, that it could have gone to the brain. He said, in primates you actually get more mercury in the brain. After the exposure, to ethyl mercury than with methyl mercury

    It appears your lying, question is why?

    Strike #1

    Thimerosal is safe, that’s why they put a rider in the homeland security bill to protect the Co. that holds the patent to Thimerosal. It was a protection, from any and all lawsuit’s from the vaccine damaged children’s family’s.

    Strike #2
    When it was removed, the setting President GW Bush tried to seal the VSD forever.

    Dr. Rodger Bernier of the CDC, has always maintained that there’s only good quality sound robust data to be found in the VSD. Thus proving, vaccine safety and that they do not cause Autism.

    So, if that’s true. Why the order, from the highest office in the land. to seal the VSD?

    Two senators wrote GW Bush letters, asking why he was sealing forever what the parents needed to prove their cases?They then threatened, to ask to see any and all of his and his staffs communications between the Pharmaceutical Co’s and him.

    He immediately, decides not to seal. For I assume,he didn’t want to have his close ties to Lilly exposed. Three people, working at the white house ex executives from Lilly. And lets
    not forget,Bush Sr. was on the board of Lilly in the 70’s. Big Bush money,would have been
    taking wings and flying away. If, Lilly had to pay for this possible vaccine damage.

    Strike #3 A new bill was presented, by Republican Senators. It, was Senate bill # 3

    It was also known as, Protecting America from terrorism 2005. Here’s the problem, as I see
    it. Several corrupt republican Senators, that tried to get protection for Lilly. Wasn’t through
    yet, if fact, here’s where they stoop as low as humanly possible. They are introducing a bill, that on the face. It’s compassionate to our fallen Hero’s, it gives every fallen solders family’s
    100,000 dollars. This is the problem, it has in the back of the bill. The same protection, for the Maker and patent holder of Thimerosal Lilly. The same protection, as all the other failed attempts to keep Lilly from being sued out of existence.

    Senators, Congressman, and a setting President, jumped through hoops like trained circus animals. Trying to get protection for Lilly, all because Thimerosal was so safe!

    All of this knowledge, about their circus acts are well known and documented. Spin this one!

    Like I said,Inorganic mercury is the most damaging to the mitochondria. 1 in 50 people, may have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria problems. And those, are the ones that are turning into Autistic like features…

  424. Chris
    November 20, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    Licha: “Falcon, please offer the ‘specific’ post where you and Chris seem to imagine that I offered to engage your game on YOUR playground.”

    You engaged in the game by making a claim. To quote one of your gems: “That’s all the time I have for now ‘pretensions’. as I have a date at the CVS to save people from injecting themselves with the latest toxic cocktail du jour ,” Plus by coming to the defense of someone who made claims about thimerosal, to answer the questions posed to him you are not obligated to answer the question asked of him.

    The rules are when you make a claim, you must provide verifiable evidence that the vaccine is more toxic than the diseases they are meant to prevent. The playground plays by the rule of scientific evidence, where the plural of anecdote is not data and the study is by someone who is both qualified and reputable (no doctors who have been stripped of their legal right to practice medicine).

    You also came to the defense of someone who has been on the record as harassing reporters because he “injoys bugging her.” This means that you think “bugging” reporters and others is a good thing to do. This does not reflect well on your personality. Plus the fact you keep saying you are leaving, but continue posting accusations.

  425. November 20, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    “Scotty, recall that Licha set the tone for the discussion herself: in her second post @ 292 she characterized those who were countering countering Joe Harris’ multiple false claims regarding vaccine safety as “shills”, in her third @296 as ‘cowardly shills’, who would “delete anything posted that is counter to their own military and robotic grilling and SHEEPISH dogma”, etc., and her later claims that her posts exhibit “honest decorum” or (@ 390) or represent “lessons in diplomatic debate exchange” (@ 404) simply aren’t believable inthat context.

    If we’re going to embrace the schoolyard bully/sandbox etc. analogies she seems to embrace the proper response to her claims that others are bullies or unthinking sheep wedded to dogma would seem to be the cliched “I know you are but what am I?”

  426. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    Joe: [citation needed]

  427. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Chris :
    Licha: “Falcon, please offer the ‘specific’ post where you and Chris seem to imagine that I offered to engage your game on YOUR playground.”
    You engaged in the game by making a claim. To quote one of your gems: “That’s all the time I have for now ‘pretensions’. as I have a date at the CVS to save people from injecting themselves with the latest toxic cocktail du jour ,” Plus by coming to the defense of someone who made claims about thimerosal, to answer the questions posed to him you are not obligated to answer the question asked of him.
    The rules are when you make a claim, you must provide verifiable evidence that the vaccine is more toxic than the diseases they are meant to prevent. The playground plays by the rule of scientific evidence, where the plural of anecdote is not data and the study is by someone who is both qualified and reputable (no doctors who have been stripped of their legal right to practice medicine).
    You also came to the defense of someone who has been on the record as harassing reporters because he “injoys bugging her.” This means that you think “bugging” reporters and others is a good thing to do. This does not reflect well on your personality. Plus the fact you keep saying you are leaving, but continue posting accusations.

    Huh???
    ————————————————————-

    Rules of licha hericane – flagged for lack of logic.

  428. November 20, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    In Denmark the rates were dropping, a FOIA email revealed that Hivid was lying through his teeth. Probably, for Money! A FOIA email said,

    “as of 2001, the rates of Autism are continuing to decline” That email, was talking about after the removal of Thimerosal!

    So you want to believe a researcher, that’s been indicted over this person trying to set the record straight. After he or she, notices that certain people are trying to commit fraud. ”

    “as of 2001, the rates of Autism are continuing to decline” How do you get ,going up from that statement? Continuing to decline, denotes that it’s steadily been dropping since the removal.

  429. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Joe if what you’re saying is true, then you should have absolutely no problem finding sources for your claims. So why aren’t you?

  430. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    @ John… also please show post where I cited ‘first blood’. I resorted to your OWN bully tactics to defend MYSELF against your bully mentality against me. Your perceived reason to do so, was only for me showing my disdain over your TREATMENT of Joe. Did you expect me to just lay down and be a doormat for you, after calling me a liar, and worse, calling Joe a ‘goat herder’?

  431. November 20, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Give me a list? About Denmark? or about The protection for Lilly?

  432. November 20, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Actually, I believe he was referring to the King of all Kings. King Jesus. Oh! BTW, how does defending my lord. Equate to, Baal worshiper???

  433. reissd
  434. November 20, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Thank goodness Congress (at least the staffers) came to their senses – I betcha, dollars to doughnuts, that this “postponement” becomes a permanent cancellation…..

    I guess $40K doesn’t go very far in the Halls of Congress anymore…..

  435. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Licha: Post #375: “Here’s 2 words that aren’t big… short and sweet and even 12 yr. old approved. ‘FIRST BLOOD’.”
    Post #225: “@Joe – sorry Joe, I don’t take medical advice from two thousand year old goat herders…..I think medical science has advanced a bit since then.” Nobody called Joe a goat herder.
    You see, we can scroll upwards and see what everyone actually said.

    Joe: I’ve provided as much evidence that you’re a Baal worshiper as you have showing vaccines are dangerous: None whatsoever. Accusations are meaningless on their own.

  436. November 20, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    I never understood the rationale behind why the anti-vaccine activists wanted to dismantle the non-adversarial means for legitimate vaccine injuries to be compensated appropriately…..have spent time in the Civil Litigation field, I can say that the last place a family would want to place themselves is in the middle of Civil Court proceedings (that can last decades and cost millions of dollars) for an outcome that is far from certain….

    Oh, I understand that they are upset that Autism was never included in the list of table injuries – but that’s because they never had any evidence whatsoever that vaccines were connected to autism…..just because they didn’t get what they wanted (and turned around and attacked those that did – like the Polings, for example), shows their true colors….

    The very fact that vaccine injury claims are paid shows that the system works – just because the anti-vaccine folks can’t get what they want through brute force (since they don’t have any scientific evidence) doesn’t mean you junk the system…..

  437. November 20, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    @Gray – thank you for pointing that out. Using fairly accurate descriptives of who actually wrote the Bible, is in no way, calling someone today, a goat herder…..

    Joe is actually much, much worse, because he really doesn’t know anything about anything, and shows it every time he posts…..perhaps he’ll call down his god’s wrath on me or something now….

  438. lilady
    November 20, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    That same announcement about the postponement of the Congressional Hearing is now up at Age of Autism.

    @ Lawrence: I tend to agree with you.

  439. November 20, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    Yes, Joe: Burbacher’s study was motivated by the fact that ethyl mercury is ‘so safe’—i.e., that we observe ethyl mercury to be much, much less toxic than equimolar concentrations of methyl mercury. So much so that it’s wholly inappropriate to set exposure limits for ethyl mercury by extrapolating from those established for methyl mercury: it’s necessary instead to derive an independent toxicologic profile for ethyl mercury. Burbacher’s study was conducted as part of this effort.

    Now, about Burbacher quote (and it is Burbacher, not Brubacher as Barbara Loe Fisher misnames him in the article you cribbed this paragraph from) and its source…

    Your text reads
    ““Not so fast”, says Thomsas Brubacher, M.D., a scientist who studies the biological effects of ethyl mercury on primates. “Just because it came out of the blood doesn’t mean it is excreted from the body.”

    Why did you make it appear Burbacher explicitly warned “Not so fast” by adding quotes to the phrase ? The quotes don’t appear in Fisher’s article.

    If you’d taken the time to go the original WebMD article Fisher used as the basis for her piece, you would have seen that she dishonestly spun its content to suggest Burbacher had shown thimerosal exposure due to vaccination to engender risk of mercury toxicity, but Burbacher made no such claim and found no evidence of toxicity from mercury exposure due to thimerosal in vaccines, and (as I’ve informed you before) his findings are in complete agreement with Pichichiero’s finding that the half-life of ethyl mercury is much faster than methyl mercury, and leaves the blood approximately 10 times faster than methyl mercury, with no indications of systemic or neural toxicity.

    The conclusion of the WebMD article was not (as Fisher tries to paint it) that thimerosal is dangerous because ethyl mercury crosses the blood brain barrier easier than methyl mercury, but that the body handles ethyl mercury very differently from the way it handle methyl mercury, and an independent understanding of ethyl mercury’s tox properties needs to be developed .

  440. November 20, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    Re: Homeland security, sealed VSD’s, letters from etc.—you are aware that none of these (even if true) would represent evidence that thimerosal exposure as the result of vaccination is either unsafe or causally related to the development of autism spectrum disorders?

    “Like I said,Inorganic mercury is the most damaging to the mitochondria.”

    As thimerosal dissociates after injection to form organic mercury (ethyl mercury, specifically and not inorganic mercury, Joe, one has to ask: did you have a point?

    “1 in 50 people, may have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria problems. And those, are the ones that are turning into Autistic like features…”

    And your evidence that every person who develops autism did so because they had such mutations in their mitochondrial DNA would be—what, exactly?

  441. November 20, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    “BTW, how does defending my lord. Equate to, Baal worshiper???”

    Your belief in your lord and the belief of the Baal worshipper in his lord are substantively identical–both represents entirely unsupported assertions of subjective personal faith indistinguishable from any other superstitious ideation.

    As such, your claims regarding the God of Abraham possess no more inherent authority nor are any more likely to be accurate depictions of the existence, nature and relationship to mankind of a wholly specualtive supernatural being commonly referred to as a god than the Baal worshippers claims regarding Baal.

    Dos that clear it up for you?

  442. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    Again with the Baal worship. You [collective you] shot of pretensions truly embarrass yourselves to any reader outside your little playpen.

  443. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    One could argue that Joe’s religion resembles Baal worship in that it involves the manipulation of supernatural forces by ritual magic for one’s own purposes, with little concern for the morality of said actions. Actually, I’m not sure how accurate that is, as much of what we know of the Hittites came from their enemies.

    More on topic, Joe could at least try to remember that “Don’t bear false witness” was one of God’s top ten list.

  444. November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    And, back to the topic at hand – once again, great news that Congress finally woke up and put the kibosh on this mummer’s farce….

  445. November 20, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    @Gray – and since Joe was the one that initially brought up that he felt his god came down and was actively smiting those who opposed him…I think rendering a value judgement on those assertions is perfectly acceptable…

  446. November 20, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    That e-mail might be damning, Joe—if there were actually evidence that the incidence of autism decreased following the removal of thimerosal in 1991, and that the decline noted represented a trend, rather than an artifact or outlier.
    It doesn’t represent a trend, however, and does appear to be an artifact. The decline in incidence is seen in total ASD diagnoses (i.e., diagnoses at all ages) rather than in ASD diagnoses for children (which is where we would see an impact if thimerosal exposure from routine childhood vaccines was causally associated with increased risk of autism).
    Instead, ASD diagnosis in children remained flat. (see http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/02/25/denmark/)

  447. November 20, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    BTW, I’m noticing a pattern, Joe. You stumble across anti vax talking points that at first glance seem to support your belief that vaccines are not safe, or that they are causally associated with autism, and then you go no further—you don’t investigate to see if the evidence says what you think it says, or if the points have already been thoroughly addressed and rebutted/discounted.

    It wouldn’t have taken you much time, for example, to actually read Burbacher’s paper and find it didn’t argue thimerosal exposure from vaccines was dangerous, or that he confirmed rather than rebutted Pichichiero.

    And here it wouldn’t have taken you much time to find out that the FOIA email wasn’t the smoking gun you thought it was, and that autism diagnoses in children did not decline following the removal of thimerosal.

    May I suggest the next you find something you think supports your case you play devil’s advocate and do your best to shoot it down yourself before posting it in gleeful anticipation of a “gotcha!” moment reward for your efforts?

  448. November 20, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    In my case it’s Again with the Baal worship” because I’m respondng to Joe’s post–do you really see a problem with this, licha?

  449. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Lawrence :

    The very fact that vaccine injury claims are paid shows that the system works – just because the anti-vaccine folks can’t get what they want through brute force (since they don’t have any scientific evidence) doesn’t mean you junk the system…..

    ————————————————————————
    Yes. Read the above line very carefully boys and girls. Is the compensation worth the risk? And WHY is there a vax injury compensation fund set up boys and girls? Because they DO cause injuries.

  450. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    People have been injured by manufacturing defects in cars. Does that mean we should outlaw cars?

  451. November 20, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    @licha – too bad there isn’t a system set up to compensate people for Car Accidents (which cost upwards of $244 Billion dollars each and every year) that isn’t extremely adversarial and plaintiff friendly……in fact, that those with legitimate vaccine injuries are at an unfair advantage over those that might be a victim of medical malpractice (who do have to sue in civil court).

    You’d think, given the low overall numbers of those legitimate vaccine injuries (a mere handful per year) that it would be easy for you to recognize that the cost-benefit analysis is firmly in the vaccines’ favor……given that the serious side-effects from VPDs can occur as often as 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 cases (depending on the disease) vs. the 1 in 1 million change of having a severe vaccine reaction.

    You aren’t very good at Math or basic Science, are you Licha?

    Because these studies alone, show that you don’t have a leg to stand on:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    And you are also exhibiting classic signs of relying on both the “Perfect World” and “Nirvana” Fallacies….perhaps you would do us a favor and tell us exactly how safe a vaccine would need to be before you considered it “safe?”

    It is a challenge that I’ve posed before, yet not a single anti-vaccine person has been able to answer.

  452. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Lawrence, to support your point, in quite a few other advanced democracies car accidents are handled through an administrative, no fault, non-adversarial scheme, and I agree with you that the U.S. model is probably inferior, as a way to compensate plaintiffs. Examples include France, Germany, Israel, and Japan also has an arrangement.

  453. November 20, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    Actually, I had read that Italy had a very progressive system as well to resolve civil complaints – where injuries (all of them) were compensated based on a table once fault had been established…..certainly it would be a better system than what we have today, where the people that win most of the time are the lawyers…..perhaps that’s what the anti-vax folks want – to line the pockets of the trial lawyers.

  454. November 20, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    Did you have a conversation with Dr. Burbacher? I did, and your wrong!

  455. November 20, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    First, I never said that. I just said, that the two incidences happened after they made fun of us for no reason. Who knows, how much they angered God just before that ????

    I just said, that he took revenge. Because I didn’t. The Bible says, Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. And I will repay! And I assume, he did. Because their lives, were instantly changed. Forever

  456. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    Lawrence – New Zealand went even further, with a no fault system for all non-intentional injuries.
    I doubt anti-vaxers want to fund lawyers, though my post does address this, but people unfamiliar with civil litigation in the U.S. tend to see it in idealized, over optimistic ways.

  457. November 20, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    I’m sure that isn’t their intent (to fund lawyers), but at the end of the day, it is the lawyers that seem to gain the most from Civil Actions…..

  458. novalox
    November 20, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    @licha

    Yawn, again admitting you’re a liar, please do try again with your schitck. I do admit, I still get a bunch of laughs at your posts, as you cannot answer any of the questions asked of you.

    You do know that we all can see you r posts that you made above, and that all of your posts have been lies and insults. I really don’t care if you attempt to insult me, since that just proves that you have issues with the truth and admit that your position has no validity.

    @scotty

    So, you admit you cannot answer the questions asked of you and are just a simple tone troll?

    It also means that you support anti-vax liars as well. Nice to know that.

    @joe

    Ah, the false god worshipper. I’m still waiting for your “god” to strike me down, hasn’t been done so far. At least I’ve prayed to a deity for you to keep posting your nonsense, so that more people can see how illogical you and the anti-vax movement are.

    Seems to be working.

  459. Chris
    November 20, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    Licha: “And WHY is there a vax injury compensation fund set up boys and girls? Because they DO cause injuries.”

    And at what level? Since 1988 there have been a bit less than 3500 claims compensated. Some of them just because the symptom/injury happened during a a time frame specified on a table, a “table injury.”

    Also during those twenty five years four million children were born in the USA each year, that means 25*4000000 kids getting vaccinate: a hundred million children. If 80% are vaccinated with 25 vaccines, then that is about 2.5 billion vaccine doses.

    Now how does that compare to the compensations: 3500/2500000000 = .0000014, or one compensated claim out of over 700000 doses of vaccine, or an “injury rate” of .00014% .

    Considering that measles causes encephalitis in one out of a thousand cases, it seems that vaccines are much safer than the diseases. If you have evidence to the contrary, then please present the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher.

  460. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    Joe Harris :
    Did you have a conversation with Dr. Burbacher? I did, and your wrong!

    Seriously? You actually expect me to believe that? Who am I going to believe, you or my own eyes?

  461. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    People have been injured by manufacturing defects in cars. Does that mean we should outlaw cars?

    No one has ever claimed that cars don’t cause injuries, and that’s why we put OUR CHILDREN in adequate protection when putting them inside a car.

    LAX, stop stealing my schict… I used the ‘yawn’ -continue filing nails’ on here just several days ago.

    Your child’s life is in your hands boys and girls… so always remember whether choosing to inject your babies with substances known to cause harm in many, or you’re fastening them into their car seats, do your OWN research away from shill sites like this, and then CHOOSE WISELY.

    Always buckle up, and remind your loved ones, that anyone calling someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  462. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    Licha is at least right this far: your child’s life is in your hands. You can choose not to protect them against dangerous diseases because of unfounded, unsupported claims promoted by the anti-vaccine movement, or you can follow the science and offer them the best protection modern medicine has and vaccinate.

  463. novalox
    November 20, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    @licha

    Ah, still resorting to more lies and your unsubstantiated “facts”?

    Again, thank you for admitting that I have always told the truth here, and that you have been lying this whole entire time. Also, thanks for admitting that you would rather have innocent children die and be maimed by VPDs instead of being vaccinated and protected against them.

    Also, why should anyone believe you if you won’t present any evidence backing it up? You’ve been insulting the regulars constantly here, showing how little you know.

    Keep trying, little one, maybe you can get better at your perceived insults. Show the world how little the anti-vax liars have to them.

  464. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    Novalox….yawn, you never asked me a question, so what are you rambling about. So you do admit that you don’t make any sense most of the time. Thank you, good to know.

  465. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    reissd :
    Licha is at least right this far: your child’s life is in your hands. You can choose not to protect them against dangerous diseases because of unfounded, unsupported claims promoted by the anti-vaccine movement, or you can follow the science and offer them the best protection modern medicine has and vaccinate.

    OR you could let your children suffer through a few inconvenient days of chicken pox, and mumps like the rest of us, allowing their natural immune systems to build up, and avoid any chance at all that you could be tentatively harming your child forever. A bottle of calamine, vs. a lifetime of developmental disabilities.

  466. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    Unless they die or are left disabled, of course. And I notice you conveniently skip over diphtheria, polio, HiB and the other diseases we vaccinate against.

  467. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    “You can choose not to protect them against dangerous diseases because of unfounded, unsupported claims promoted by the anti-vaccine movement”

    These are not unfounded claims. Come into the trenches and you will see how many vaccine injuries there are. Please wake up. This isn’t the :anti-vaccine” movement it is regular Mom’s and Dad’s with vaccine injured children telling their stories and sharing their experiences to help others and help get the word to the anybody who will listen.
    Fact: My daughter was injured by a vaccine and it is more common then you would have us believe.

  468. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    novalox :
    @licha

    You do know that we all can see you r posts that you made above, and that all of your posts have been lies and insults. I really don’t care if you attempt to insult me, since that just proves that you have issues with the truth and admit that your position has no validity.

    Got NOTHIN’ to hide. I said Joe was my hero 3 times and before I knew it, I was called a sock puppet, a LIAR, and had a POST [which said nothing different than what I’ve posted since’ DELETED.

    Here is LAX’s perception and comprehension of the word ‘PROVES’…. ‘I don’t care if you insult me, since that just PROVES…. PROVES… PROVES….that you have issues with the truth and ADMIT ADMIT ADMIT…. that your position has no validity.’??? Huh???

    Poor LAX… can’t get from A to B without losing his way, and to compensate for a small [hmmm???] *intellect* :) ; ends up calling everyone a LIAR.

    And you all wonder why posters don’t want to take their precious time to send you proof. But you really CAN’T handle the PROOF.

    Anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR!. ;)

  469. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Scotty, how do you know your daughter’s condition wasn’t caused by something else? Correlation isn’t causation: Nearly every serial killer ate bread at some point.

  470. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    licha, it’s not the fact that you insulted him, it’s the fact that you insulted him instead of answering his question. That strongly suggests, if not outright proves, that you don’t have an answer.

  471. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    reissd :
    Unless they die or are left disabled, of course. And I notice you conveniently skip over diphtheria, polio, HiB and the other diseases we vaccinate against.

    Unless they die or are left disabled from needlessly injecting our own children with vax. I didn’t conveniently skip over anything and don’t know why you would imply that I had.

  472. Lawrence
    November 20, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Once again, an anti-vax individual dodges the question.

  473. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    licha, it’s not the fact that you insulted him, it’s the fact that you insulted him instead of answering his question. That strongly suggests, if not outright proves, that you don’t have an answer.

    Again flagged for lack of logic. Logic please. OUTRIGHT PROVES? haha – Where have we heard THIS before? I think all of science would disagree with you. Where’s YOUR PROOF?

  474. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    licha, did you not see the words “strongly suggests” in the post you just quoted? Did you just misquote something anyone can see right in front of them? There’s proof that you’re a liar! Seriously, have you even considered the truth, even once!

    Also, Joe told lies, that if believed, would lead to innocent lives being lost. One could argue we had an ethical right to physically stop him from posting, but the pragmatic truth was that would only give him false legitimacy.

  475. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    “proof that you’re a liar”
    Weren’t you just the one telling me that somebody could be mistaken etc and not necessarily a lie? What happened to your logic? It only works for you but doesn’t apply to others?

  476. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    Scotty, I am terribly sorry to hear about your daughter. I would love to know more about her and you and your family. I hope that she can overcome the injuries that she’s sustained and I mean this from the bottom of my heart.

    All animosity aside, it sadly IS our children and grandchildren who suffer.

    You and your daughter will be in my thoughts and prayers, along with a host of all other injured, who are only innocently trying to do the right thing. But become the 1 in 1 million that has adverse reactions.

    Take care Scotty and I hope you find all the answers you search for
    love licha

  477. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    Gray…..thank you for explaining “Correlation isn’t causation” good to know. Never thought about it before.

  478. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    Thanks Licha! It was 2.5 years ago and all is well. It’s been long bumpy ride, but we’ve got her about 99.9% recovered. Thanks for the best wishes.

  479. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    Scotty, if you were mistaken, why didn’t you admit you were wrong when presented with the truth?

    licha, would you rather have one in a thousand dead? Disease kill, cripple, and maim far more than vaccines. That is an established fact.

  480. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    licha, it’s not the fact that you insulted him, it’s the fact that you insulted him instead of answering his question. That strongly suggests, if not outright proves, that you don’t have an answer.

    Do you not see the words, ‘IF NOT OUTRIGHT PROVES?. You can’t possibly PROVE that because I INSULT LAX, I don’t know answers and therefore admit to LYING. That is illogical thinking. I insult LAX because he is insulting and I want to. I choose not to answer questions because I DON’T want to. It PROVES nothing.

  481. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    Gray, because I wasn’t mistaken. If I was mistaken I would own up to it.

  482. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    I agree Licha….again not sure about Gray’s logic here. Not giving an answer doesn’t prove anything either way. It goes back to the saying you know what assuming does….

  483. Chris
    November 20, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    Licha; “Unless they die or are left disabled from needlessly injecting our own children with vax.”

    You have just posted a claim, you need to verify that claim with evidence. Please post the PubMed indexed study from a qualified reputable researcher that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more death or disability than the disease.

    For instance, from The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review we can note that measles causes pneumonia most often (which cause death at about one in 1-5 thousand cases), and encephalitis at about on in a thousand cases, which in turn causes blindness, deafness, paralysis, etc. You must show the MMR causes more disability and death than the disease.

    Also, last year there were over a hundred pediatric deaths due to influenza. If you feel the influenza vaccine is dangerous, you need to provide the PubMed indexed study from a reputable qualified researcher than the flu vaccine causes that much death/disability.

  484. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    Scotty :
    I agree Licha….again not sure about Gray’s logic here. Not giving an answer doesn’t prove anything either way. It goes back to the saying you know what assuming does….

    Let’s say I claim that I have proof that Joe worships Baal, but I refuse to show you any of it, calling you liars and heathens for suggesting that I do so. Would you think I was telling the truth?

  485. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    reissd :
    Unless they die or are left disabled, of course. And I notice you conveniently skip over diphtheria, polio, HiB and the other diseases we vaccinate against.

    You may want to post your comment to the person I quoted. Please see above.

  486. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    Because you refuse to show me proof, means that I don’t need to believe what you are saying. It doesn’t prove you are lying about it.

  487. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    Actually, Scotty, I do think you’re mistaken. Joe, on the other hand, has repeatedly claimed insider information but has not once provided proof of it.

  488. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    Scotty :
    Because you refuse to show me proof, means that I don’t need to believe what you are saying. It doesn’t prove you are lying about it.

    What’s the difference?

  489. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Scotty :
    I agree Licha….again not sure about Gray’s logic here. Not giving an answer doesn’t prove anything either way. It goes back to the saying you know what assuming does….

    Let’s say I claim that I have proof that Joe worships Baal, but I refuse to show you any of it, calling you liars and heathens for suggesting that I do so. Would you think I was telling the truth?

    I wouldn’t care. I told you several days ago, I won’t be a party to your religious persecution. It’s Joe’s business, not yours or mine.

  490. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Scotty :
    Because you refuse to show me proof, means that I don’t need to believe what you are saying. It doesn’t prove you are lying about it.

    Touche Scotty!

  491. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    Correction: What other reasons would I have for refusing to show you the truth?

  492. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    licha hericane :

    Gray Falcon :

    Scotty :
    I agree Licha….again not sure about Gray’s logic here. Not giving an answer doesn’t prove anything either way. It goes back to the saying you know what assuming does….

    Let’s say I claim that I have proof that Joe worships Baal, but I refuse to show you any of it, calling you liars and heathens for suggesting that I do so. Would you think I was telling the truth?

    I wouldn’t care. I told you several days ago, I won’t be a party to your religious persecution. It’s Joe’s business, not yours or mine.

    It’s called a hypothetical question. That wasn’t religious persecution. If I wanted to engage in religious persecution I would have bought a weapon.

  493. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    Gray,

    “Because you refuse to show me proof, means that I don’t need to believe what you are saying. It doesn’t prove you are lying about it. ”

    “What’s the difference?”

    You don’t understand the difference Gray?
    If you have no proof I can choose not to believe you but it doesn’t mean you don’t have proof or that you are correct. It means, you could be right or wrong, but I will wait until proof to decide. It’s really not that hard to understand Gray.

  494. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 8:43 pm

    Unless you meant that as a joke Falcon, one can engage in persecution without using weapons.

  495. Scotty
    November 20, 2013 at 8:43 pm

    You should see some of Gray’s other “hypothetical” questions. They do tend to cross the line one way or another.

  496. November 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    Scotty, these people are paid to man the Vaccine related articles. And to try, to discredit the parents vaccine damage story’s.

  497. November 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    I see liche continues to dodge my relevant question……

    Again, glad that the Hearing was cancelled…..Issa’s staffers probably realized it was a bad move politically to be associated with these loons…..

  498. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    licha hericane :
    Unless you meant that as a joke Falcon, one can engage in persecution without using weapons.

    I could also persecute you with my bare hands, I suppose. The thing is, I know what real persecution is. where people have to hide their faith, where people live in fear and oppression, and your use of the word disgusts me. Do not trivialize the suffering of innocents by comparing yourself to them.

    Scotty :
    You should see some of Gray’s other “hypothetical” questions. They do tend to cross the line one way or another.

    No answer, then? I thought so. Again, what legitimate reason does someone have for not providing proof they claim they posses?

  499. November 20, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    @Joe – actually, we just let you talk….you do a great job of discrediting the anti-vax position all by yourself…..

  500. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    Joe Harris :
    Scotty, these people are paid to man the Vaccine related articles. And to try, to discredit the parents vaccine damage story’s.

    Any evidence for your accusation? There answer is no, because we are not paid for this. Bit of advice: The word “devil” is derived from the Greek word for “slanderer”.

  501. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Sigh. It always makes me a little sad when anti-vaccine activists realize they don’t actually have credible evidence or argument and have to resort to the pharma shill gambit. Here is an explanation why it’s a really weak tool: http://badskeptic.com/?p=750

  502. November 20, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    Actually, they said they could not get any participation from the other side. In other words, they refusing to come to the hearing. We reminded the Committee, that’s what they were given the power of the Subpoena for.

  503. November 20, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    Bit of advice, the God of Abraham will judge you for you part in this Evil.

  504. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    “Actually, they said they could not get any participation from the other side. In other words, they refusing to come to the hearing. We reminded the Committee, that’s what they were given the power of the Subpoena for.”

    Because they were not aware of that? It’s pretty clear they decided the hearing is a bad idea. Probably because they realized the attack on NVICP has no basis.

  505. reissd
    November 20, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    “Bit of advice, the God of Abraham will judge you for you part in this Evil.” Since I’m not one of those trying to scare people away from protecting their children from diseases, I have no problem facing my God.

  506. November 20, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    Licha, you left out the best part. Lifetime immunity! Their way, even if it worked leaves a vacuum for nature to fill. And as always, it’s usually nastier that the original.

  507. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    Joe Harris :
    Bit of advice, the God of Abraham will judge you for you part in this Evil.

    If you truly believe in God, why do you take part in libel? Why do you so casually disregard His own law? Even prophets and kings were subject to the law. Are you greater than them?

  508. November 20, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    We, are only subject to the laws of the land. When, they don’t defy Gods laws.

    He does not! condone aborting children. And then, using aborted fetal lines to culture vaccine on. If Abels blood, cried out to God. When Cane slew him, what do you think millions of murdered children blood does? Do you really think, that God almighty winks
    at your misuse of aborted children.

  509. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    licha hericane :
    Unless you meant that as a joke Falcon, one can engage in persecution without using weapons.

    I could also persecute you with my bare hands, I suppose. The thing is, I know what real persecution is. where people have to hide their faith, where people live in fear and oppression, and your use of the word disgusts me. Do not trivialize the suffering of innocents by comparing yourself to them.
    Falcon, I’m sorry but you’re not making sense here. I never compared myself to anyone. Persecution does not always denote physical harm. Please look the word up for yourself. I did NOT write the dictionary, and surely you do understand that you’re being rather closed minded when you allow your perception of the word persecute, to infer the only ONE meaning that you give the word. Why don’t you just refrain from making fun of other peoples beliefs?

  510. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Joe, libel is bearing false witness. It goes directly against God’s command. The “aborted fetal lines” claim is grossly misleading: While fetal cells were used, we are not aborting large numbers of children to make them, as you imply.

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues.html

    What’s more, the only mention of anything resembling abortion in the Bible is Exodus 21:22-25, where a miscarriage of a fetus carried a fine, while injury to the mother was quite punitive.

  511. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    Webster’s dictionary definition of “persecution”: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief.

  512. November 20, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Was it science used, in the IOM meeting? I recall, the CDC telling the IOM pay very little attention to the biological evidence. And, put all their confidence in the large population based studies.

    In 2002, the IOM had ruled that it was biologically plausible that the vaccines were indeed causing Autism. In 2004, the CDC asked the IOM to re-evaluate. But! don’t look at the biological evidence of Mercury being an IQ lowering neural-toxic compound.

    The CDC also said, Walter Orenstien speaking of the agency wants you to declare these things are pretty safe on a population basis. And BTW,what Walt wants Walt generally gets! She was speaking, of Walter Orenstien the Dir. of the vaccine program.

  513. November 20, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    The Bible says, Pride cometh just before a great fall. I really, wouldn’t be taunting God. It really isn’t, a good thing to do. For people,who called the Savior a Goat Herder. Might be, treading on very thin ice.

  514. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Webster’s dictionary definition of “persecution”: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief.

    Exactly. It does not have to cause a physical suffering. But regardless, if I used a word that has offended you, I’m sorry to have brought up any terrifying memories. It was clearly not my intent. How could I have known? I hope you won’t hold that against me, since I used the word in a general sense, to not intimidate one another for our personal belief systems. I didn’t mean to appear insensitive to a type of persecution that you may have endured.

    Sincerely,
    licha

  515. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    Joe Harris :
    The Bible says, Pride cometh just before a great fall. I really, wouldn’t be taunting God. It really isn’t, a good thing to do. For people,who called the Savior a Goat Herder. Might be, treading on very thin ice.

    Not half as thin as a false prophet.

    licha hericane :

    Gray Falcon :
    Webster’s dictionary definition of “persecution”: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief.

    Exactly. It does not have to cause a physical suffering. But regardless, if I used a word that has offended you, I’m sorry to have brought up any terrifying memories. It was clearly not my intent. How could I have known? I hope you won’t hold that against me, since I used the word in a general sense, to not intimidate one another for our personal belief systems. I didn’t mean to appear insensitive to a type of persecution that you may have endured.
    Sincerely,
    licha

    licha, I never endured persecution for my beliefs. I simply have a certain emotion called empathy. Learn about it, it map help solve most of your problems.

  516. licha hericane
    November 20, 2013 at 11:07 pm

    Aw..see Falcon, that’s why no one really wants to play with any of you here at pretensions. I surely understand the word empathy, because I reached out to you in empathy, only to be met by a kick in the teeth. If you’ve never been persecuted, then why did you freak when I only used the term as in Websters?

    At any rate, that is a very ugly comment, after I humbled myself, thinking I’d offended you. Now I can honestly say that you are the one who needs to learn some humility, and tolerance for diversity. Rude! Why didn’t you just call me a LIAR again, while you’re at it?

    Most of my problems? Moi? And mwah;) G’night everyone. Ending another fine day on shot of pretension.

  517. Gray Falcon
    November 20, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    licha: Seriously? Empathy? You call us shills and liars, lie about what we said, cry about how much of a martyr you are, and you say you reached out to us in empathy! How dare you.

  518. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 12:03 am

    Don’t pretend to know me or my heart Falcon. As I said before, Jesus said the ‘liars will be judged with the murders and the thieves. I strive to be a humble, and very genuine person. The only person I’ve been ugly to has been LAX.

    I said I reached out to YOU [singular you] in empathy, since you rudely [and wrongfully] stated that I didn’t know what empathy was. You seem quite thin skinned for what you dish out Falcon. I don’t think that’s being EMPATHETIC at all.

  519. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 12:27 am

    licha, I’d have cared more for your “reaching out to me in empathy” if you hadn’t acted like a monster this whole thread.

  520. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 12:32 am

    By the way, licha, being insulted is not “suffering for your faith”. Martin Luther King Jr. was jailed, ostracized, and murdered for following his faith. By comparing yourself to the true martyrs, you trivialize them.

  521. November 21, 2013 at 6:43 am

    Really, leaving “sky fairy” religious talk out of it, the real Science has refuted Joe’s talking points a decade ago:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    And, of course, the ingredient “scare tactics” which have also been debunked in numerous places (including here) are summarized here:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    So, unless the current crop of anti-vaccine individuals can address the actual Science and provide anything that looks like scientific evidence or proof of their positions (and not any thoroughly debunked junk research – like Wakefield’s, for instance), it is useless to engage with them…because it is painfully obvious that they aren’t interested in a real conversation or discussion about vaccines.

    Again, it is good to hear that Issa’s staff came to their senses – I’m sure, once confronted by the “full-on crazy” on display during the briefing, they realized that it would be a horrible move to give those individuals a platform by which to spew their conspiracies on the Congressman’s dime…..acting against the best interests of public health is never a good thing, with an election year coming up….

    This is very similar to how the Anti-Vax groups reacted to the Omnibus Hearings. They embraced them & were so sure that they would be finally vindicated – yet turned on the whole process when they discovered that they hadn’t even a half a leg to stand on (no Science, videos that showed children with obvious signs of autism long before vaccination, junk Science “experts” who couldn’t keep their stories straight, etc, etc, etc.)

    Now, they were so convinced that they had “bought” a Congressman & he was going to help them expose the whole “conspiracy” or at least help them destroy the one easy means for legitimate vaccine reactions to be compensated…..so now they’ll turn on him too, now that he’s seen the light & realized that his association with loons is a really bad idea.

  522. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 8:45 am

    It’s baffling why anyone would even believe in such conspiracies, requiring thousands of people to keep a secret with not a single one selling out or making a mistake. I half suspect they just want to believe that corporations and the government are more capable than they really are.

  523. November 21, 2013 at 9:08 am

    @Gray – knowing what I know about the Government & Big Corporations, they are probably some of the most inept and befuddling operations you’d ever see. They can barely keep different divisions (or bureaus) moving in the same general direction, much less orchestrate some kind of grand conspiracy….the larger the organization, the less likely that they are actually able to accomplish much of anything.

    I find any actual progress is usually just a case of momentum, not part of any grand plan.

  524. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    By the way, licha, being insulted is not “suffering for your faith”. Martin Luther King Jr. was jailed, ostracized, and murdered for following his faith. By comparing yourself to the true martyrs, you trivialize them.

    I’m trying to be very delicate here, because I’m sure you are all very nice people. There are things we may disagree on. Perhaps there is even more we MAY agree on. Aside from answering LAX, I don’t feel that I was monstrous in my exchange last evening. If at times I seemed short, it’s because there are 5 or 6 of you, that I’m trying to read and respond to.

    My jabs about your site, were directed solely at the bullies, of which, in just the short week that I stumbled on your site, seemed to have gone unchecked for some time. That’s very unfortunate for those of you who DO play nice. For as tolerant as I try to be, it’s difficult to hold ones tongue after being called a sock puppet, troll and LIAR over and over. I feel the response to call the bully a shill, and to suggest those that SUPPORT the bully, are shills, to be a normal reflex of human behavior. It is unfortunate that as LAX antagonized with continual lies, calling me a liar, that my insults to him [and at times overflowing to the site] became exacerbated.

    All this aside Falcon, for the life of me, I don’t see how my statement that I don’t want to be involved in ostracizing another posters faith, by responding to the query you’d initiated, could possibly be misconstrued into ‘comparing myself to Martin Luther King’. I ‘trivialized’ NO ONE, by saying that I won’t be a party to another’s religious persecution [public ridicule of their faith]. In fact I feel my statement DEFENDS those persecuted and shows religious tolerance.

    I was worried that I had caused you some extreme anxiety by my use of the word, so I reached out in honest and sincere good faith, and humbled myself for seemingly offending you. I am neither a LIAR or a monster; just an old grandma who wandered onto your site by accident.

    I hope the nice members of your site can smooth some of the rough edges of bully-like behavior, be less judgemental and more tolerant in the diversity of posters that come here. And I truly do wish you all the best Gray Falcon.

  525. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    licha, I never even implied I had been personally persecuted. Why did you draw that conclusion? If you’re going to care, couldn’t you at least pay attention to what I say?

  526. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    licha hericane :

    Gray Falcon :

    licha hericane :
    Unless you meant that as a joke Falcon, one can engage in persecution without using weapons.

    I could also persecute you with my bare hands, I suppose. The thing is, I know what real persecution is. where people have to hide their faith, where people live in fear and oppression, and your use of the word disgusts me. Do not trivialize the suffering of innocents by comparing yourself to them.

    True that you hadn’t come right out and said such. Although given your excitable reply above, it wouldn’t be eccentric for one to speculate that you may have had some personal experience with such. Glad to know that’s not the case.

    Be well Falcon
    licha

  527. reissd
    November 21, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    @ Gray and @ Lawrence: before I got drawn into the vaccine controversy (hard to believe, but a year and a half ago I did not know there was an anti-vaccine movement!) my only area of research was regulation, state, federal and comparative. I want to reinforce what you say: having a massive government conspiracy is practically impossible. When I hear anti-vaccine activists talk about it I always want to direct them to Pressman and Wildavsky’s classic book POLICY IMPLEMENTATION (subtitle: “How Great Expectations in Washington Are Dashed in Oakland; Or, Why It’s Amazing that Federal Programs Work at All,”) and the follow up literature, showing how hard it is to get anything done on a large scale, even above board.

  528. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    licha: I could simply be angry on another person’s behalf. Is it really so hard to imagine that I might not be completely self-centered? Now, chew on this: If I really had been the victim of persecution, do you really think I would have appreciated you justifying your use of the word?

  529. November 21, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Do you know of a God, that draws pictures in the heavens?

    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    http://www.zimbio.com/Hubble+Space+Telescope/articles/124/Crown+Thorns+Spotted+NASA+Hubble

    Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

    John 19: 2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands. 4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him. 5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man! 6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him..

    http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/pr1992017a/

  530. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Joe Harris- Irrelevant. No space photos can turn your lies into truth.

  531. November 21, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    I didn’t lie, everything I said can be proven!

    I asked you, to parse out what you wanted.

  532. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Then why haven’t you, Joe? Why are you going around posting space photos instead of the e-mails and articles you claim to have?

  533. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    licha: I could simply be angry on another person’s behalf. Is it really so hard to imagine that I might not be completely self-centered? Now, chew on this: If I really had been the victim of persecution, do you really think I would have appreciated you justifying your use of the word?

    Falcon, I don’t know how you keep coming to your interpretations of my posts. Respectfully, your comment above is unreasonable. I’ve been trying to be as diplomatic as possible.

    I only came to my contemplation that I may have offended you, AFTER you made it known how upsetting the word persecution is to you. Many use the word ‘persecute’ as I had, and without usually causing such intense reactions. When I saw how extremely upset you were, I considered that perhaps you had suffered some devastating persecution personally.

    I saw your reply and I humbly apologized accordingly. Yet still, this seems to not sit well with you. I’m sorry you feel that way Falcon, but I somehow also think that my suggestion to NOT DEVALUE others for their varied religious beliefs, has made you decline my offer of peace and well wishes for you and your site. I can’t offer any more regret for upsetting you. But now that I know you [or family/friends close to you] had not suffered such, I can’t help but think your reaction to be a tad irrational.

    Regardless, I hope you will realise that I was humble AND sincere, but for now I’ll let you and your site get back on topic.

    Genuinely,
    licha

  534. November 21, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Again I post.

    Was it science, used in the IOM meeting? I recall, the CDC telling the IOM pay very little attention to the biological evidence. And, put all their confidence in the large population based studies.

    In 2002, the IOM had ruled that it was biologically plausible that the vaccines were indeed causing Autism. In 2004, the CDC asked the IOM to re-evaluate. But! don’t look at the biological evidence of Mercury being an IQ lowering neural-toxic compound.

    What would be the reason, to tell the IOM that Walt wants them to declare. “that these things are pretty safe, on a population basis”

    The CDC also said, Walter Orenstien speaking of the agency wants you to declare these things are pretty safe on a population basis. And BTW,what Walt wants Walt generally gets! She was speaking, of Walter Orenstien the Dir. of the vaccine program.

    So, how is ordering someone to not find causation. Considered science based proof???

    And why, if they had all of the good quality sound robust studies. That, you claim they possessed. Did they have to resort, to ordering people to come to a negative finding?

    Answer this, or shut your mouth!

  535. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    licha, you were nasty to me from the beginning, and now you’re trying to deny it never happened. Why should I trust you? Did you think that you could call me a “liar” and a “shill” and that I’d simply forget about that? Did you think I’d somehow forgot what I read only a few hours before? Did you somehow forget what you wrote?

    And I’m not being irrational, I’m pointing out that you’re trying to make yourself look like a victim, when you aren’t.

  536. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    Joe: Where did you get your information? How do I know you didn’t simply make all that up? Answer that, or keep silent.

  537. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    @licha

    Again, why should anyone believe you? Your behavior has been seen in the posts you put up earlier, why should anyone believe you are sincere?

    @joe

    Again, making up stuff? You haven’t put up any proof for your ramblings, why should anyone believe that you are nothing but a hypocrite and a liar?

  538. November 21, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    You attacked my belief. I did not, attack yours. I just shared, what had happened when two people made fun of two others that done nothing wrong. Like I said, we do not know how far that they had pushed God at that point!

    WE did nothing wrong! We were talking between ourselves,and they started putting their hands up like they were praising God. God does not like it ,when people mock his children!

    I did not retaliate, I just said, God forgive them for they no not what they do.

  539. November 21, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    Are you a pack of Atheist?

  540. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Joe, I am a Christian, and many of these atheists are far closer to God than you will ever be. They may have spoken words of mockery, but your lies in His name are outright blasphemy.

    Now, why haven’t you provided any sources for your claims? All these e-mails and secret meetings, surely some record must exist somewhere.

  541. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Do you know how many times people start out on opposite sides of a debate, only to become friends later; regardless of whether they continue to disagree? I would have ‘FORGIVEN’ [for those who believe in God and Jesus] LAX, should he have apologized for calling me a LIAR and worse everyday. I also don’t see how I paint myself to look like any victim. I’m sorry you’re so angry, and that really shows the tone of this site.

    Be mature, be forgiving and be tolerant. Perhaps another time and place Gray Falcon.

    I hope someday you can come to terms with your pride and anger issues.

    ps. not to revisit bad blood, but you and Chris were the first to label me a sock puppet, and yet I could still ascertain that it was in the heat of discussion, enough to overlook your cruel comments; and then even apologize when I thought I’d offended you. Food for thought Falcon.

  542. November 21, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Simple, look in the Simpson wood meeting minutes. Their appalling.

    Look at the fact, that the IOM meeting minutes are not available through the FOIA because they are not a Government agency. Yet we have them, it appears someone thought that ordering people to do something this shady. Needed to be reported, so some of them leaked out the minutes.

    The IOM, has never disputed the validity of the leaked minutes!

    So now you know where to go get them, scoot!

  543. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    @licha

    You’ve been proven a liar by consistently refusing to show any proof for your beliefs and viewpoints, Why should I ask forgiveness from you when you still refuse to show any evidence and call us names?

    The onus is on you, since you made the assertions. I’ll keep waiting and waiting, but something tells you you won’t be able to deliver

    @joe

    Considering how little of your faith you display here, I’m surprised that you can call yourself a “christian”, since you consistently display very unchristianlike behaviors.

  544. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Gray, you know nothing of empathy, please don’t pretend. I mentioned my vaccine injured daughter and your response was something like “you know, correlation doesn’t’ equal causation”. You have no idea about my situation, and you surely didn’t empathize. Your response was very condescending.

  545. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    licha: Remember that you used the words “first blood” to justify your nastiness. And I had every right to suspect you of being a sockpuppet. And I still do.

    Joe: If it’s too much to ask, may I have a link to those minutes, perhaps a page number? I’m not just going to take your word on it. Remember, you tried to libel me.

  546. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Scotty :
    Gray, you know nothing of empathy, please don’t pretend. I mentioned my vaccine injured daughter and your response was something like “you know, correlation doesn’t’ equal causation”. You have no idea about my situation, and you surely didn’t empathize. Your response was very condescending.

    I was trying to spare your daughter unnecessary therapy so you could concentrate your resources on real problems. Pointing out that you were in error is not cruel.

  547. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 21, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    If you want to argue that they should have conceded autism, make your case. If you want to argue that they did concede autism as a vaccine injury, you are clearly wrong. HHS made that clear.

  548. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    It PROVES nothing LAX. PROOF…PROVEN…PROVES… please look up the words you love to throw around.

    Falcon, go through the posts to my first 3.. I was only cheering on one who you had ALREADY ganged up on and were bullying . It was YOU who had then turned on ME with insults first, hence the term ‘FIRST BLOOD’. I said that you drew first blood. True! Go back and see why.

    This is why there are only 5 members posting. You [collective you] are ridiculous and no amount of reasoning with PROOF will deter your inane lack of logic. That’s why I won’t play on here. I could see the writing on the wall. ‘Ya just can’t get blind sheep to drink no matter what documentation you provide.

    Aside from that, there seems to be a severe comprehension problem here. No offense meant, but the problem is obvious.

  549. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    licha, we were demanding Joe provide proof for his absurd claims. Do you think we should just accept what everyone says without thinking? You yourself admit that you wouldn’t do that? We shouldn’t we hold others to the same standards?

  550. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 5:06 pm

    Maybe he’s on a new chromebook like me, and hasn’t figured how to do linkers yet. Why don’t you provide proof of disproof, if you understand what he is meaning to post. That’s what I would do. I prefer to get my data right from the science communities. So I wouldn’t use other posters sources anyway. I would consider the argument, research, or if I’d already done so before on the topic, I would prove or disprove with my sources.

    That’s why I offered that you should do your own legwork without demanding everyone duplicate by linking all their material. If you have proof which counters, post it, and be done with the argument.

    LAX inferred that the onus was on me. Actually, it’s your site, you’re the one purporting your pov to the public. The burden of proof is actually on you.

    ps. I would also ignore posters who want to mix religion and science. Sorry Joe. One pulpit is pressed to serve both subjects at the same time.

    In my HUMBLE opinion,
    licha

  551. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    I’d like to add that when we look at what we perceive as conclusive PROOF in the science community, we need to remain OPEN MINDED, and consider new theories/studies logically, carefully, and WITHOUT PREJUDICE. What was proven one year, may be disproven the next and vice versa.

  552. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Licha: Why aren’t you open-minded enough to accept that you may be wrong? Why aren’t you open-minded to accept our evidence? Why are you using your prejudices to reject every study we provide?

    Oh, and Joe has done links before, to a C-SPAN page that showed that a senator held his beliefs. So that excuse doesn’t fly.

  553. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    Gray…you are a big joke.

    “I was trying to spare your daughter unnecessary therapy so you could concentrate your resources on real problems. Pointing out that you were in error is not cruel.”

    Again, you know absolutely nothing about my family and this injury.
    Error?
    Real Problems?

    Do you think you are God?

  554. November 21, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    Scotty, I to have a very severely vaccine damaged child. I can assure you a person who answers as he did. “you know, correlation doesn’t’ equal causation” That’s a person doing their job. Notice that all these people, are available at all hours of the night or day..

    Why you think that is? Remember, Bill Gates saying he was going to declare cyber war on those speaking about the dangers of vaccines. Welcome to the front lines, and those who are showing no compassion or concern for the vaccine damaged children. Those, are their troops.

  555. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    @scotty

    Then provide proof for your beliefs. You put up the assertions, you provide the facts to back up your assertions.

    None of us are god, but we follow facts and evidence, and the evidence doesn’t support your viewpoint.

    @joe

    Again, assertions without facts. Why should anyone believe you and you godbotting?

    @licha

    See, you were the one making assertions first, you provide the facts. Otherwise, we have to assume that you have nothing to back up your assertions, and that you are just lying to us.

  556. November 21, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    I am leaving a reply.. but not really concerned if it goes unnoticed, as this page is completely a hate crime in itself. Calling for the silence of the vaccine injured and their parents is a path that will lead to your destruction “every Child By two” I will do all I can to stop you from silencing ME or any other parent of a vaccine injured child.

  557. reissd
    November 21, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    I am sorry you interpret this post this way, Mike. I can’t speak for ECBT, but I they kindly allowed me to post here, and will respond as that. The goal of this effort is not to silence you, and you can certainly voice your opinion in many forums, including by writing to Congresspersons. But a hearing aimed at abolishing NVICP would be a bad idea for society and would directly harm those with provable claims of vaccine injury, as this post explains. It is a bad idea all around.

  558. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    nova, Gray made those comments without asking for proof. He is in the wrong, he is condescending and lacks the empathy he claims to have. Just pathetic. He really needs to step down off of the soap box and start listening.

  559. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    Mike, are aware that far more people have suffered from vaccine-preventable diseases? That many people have lost large amounts of money to those who fraudulently diagnose their children as “vaccine-damaged”? That autistic children are being kept from real education by parents pursuing quack remedies? Are you going to silence us for speaking up for them?

  560. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    Joe…I think you may be on to something. At first, I thought there is no way this is possible. But these people have proven me wrong (except for reissd). So I do believe it is possible these people are paid to be mean and nasty, it is highly likely.

  561. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    You don’t speak for me Gray, and those quack remedies you speak of healed my child.

  562. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    @scotty

    You do know that using the pharma shill gambit makes you and your position look silly, right?

    Also, where is your proof? I can understand having a child with disabilities, and I have worked with individuals with actual disabilities, but using unproven treatments is just asking for future trouble.

  563. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    @mike

    Making accusation of hate crimes is a mockery to those who suffered from actual hate crimes. Don’t presume to use victim’s suffering as your own.

  564. November 21, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    That’s amazing, just where do you want these children who are severely effected. That most, have a mental cap. of 2.5 yrs. Where would you, want them to go? We send them to public school, they baby sit them till they are 22 yr’s old. And then,they have a mock graduation. And then tell you, good luck! Your now on your own.

  565. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    Novalox…you are flat out wrong.

    First of all, you are lumping all treatments together as one? They are all the same? Possibly thousands of treatments are all the same?

    Second of all, who said anything about unproven? You have no idea what you are talking about.

    3rd, “actual disabilities”? Those who are vaccine injured don’t have actual disabilities?

    You absolutely disgust me.

  566. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    Joe, Scotty, I am one of those autistic people who never underwent one of those treatments. I currently work as a computer programmer.

  567. November 21, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    His soap box, is a prepared sheet. They use people, who normally cannot get a job that is proud to be Autistic. They do have social issues, but that’s the extent of their disability’s.
    Not like children, with Autism suffering in their bowls. In fact, they make fun of it.

    Hey, you all that say. “your child, just has another way of thinking” He does not need, any medical attention.

    What should I do, about the pill cam footage that shows 14.5 inches of red raw volcanic looking inflammation. That BTW, looks strangely similar to a measles infection.

    I wish all here, could peel the scabs off of your eyes. And see the damage, what some have said we need to celebrate.

    We need to celebrate, children beating their heads senseless. And while where at it, can I get a cheer for the child chewing his fingers almost off.

    All I can say is, you would be better to be shills. Than to be as stupid, and out of touch with reality as you appear.

  568. November 21, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Bravo! Scotty

  569. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Good for you, but so what is your point?

    Maybe I should tell you that correlation doesn’t equal causation. Or you don’t, or never had autism. Don’t feel bad, I am only correcting your mistake.

    Autism is very complicated and it is not a one size fits all. Your situation does not fit every other person with autism obviously. You know how many I know that can’t function without support of family? Doesn’t describe you now does it.

  570. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    @scotty

    Then show us proof for your treatments. Otherwise, we can assume that you are treating your child with unproven treatments, which can cause harm.

    I don’t presume treatments will work or not, I’d rather do something that has been proven to work, like ABA therapy and intensive education.

    And trust me, I don’t care if you or any other anti-vax liars are disgusted at me, it just shows that you don’t have any evidence backing you up. Respect is earned, and you haven’t shown anything resembling close to it.

    I also think it amusing that you think my comments are disgusting, but at the same time find joe’s comments appropriate.

  571. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    I agree with you Joe!

  572. November 21, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Good for you! my son can’t even potty on his own. In fact, he likes to kick over 250 dollar toilets. When he is not doing that, he’s spreading poop and diaper stuffing down the halls.
    Or maybe, he’s beating the sheet rock off the walls.

    Your not Autistic, your a person that just can’t get a date!

  573. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    @joe

    Again, why should any rational person believe you, when you don’t even have any proof to back up your wild assertions?

  574. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    You are disgusting nova. You make me sick. Go be miserable by yourself. I am not giving you the time of day after this comment. people like you make me physically ill and I don’t want to feel that way.

  575. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    @joe

    Also, resorting to infantile insults?

  576. November 21, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Yahoo,Scotty got mad! and is putting you all in your place.

  577. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    @scotty

    Yawn, try again scotty. Refusing to show any evidence shows how little you really know.

    I don’t really care what you think, since it seems apparent now that actual evidence presented to you won’t sway you. I post just to show the absurdity of the anti-vaxxer’s arguments, which it seems, you and your ilk done quite well showing how out of touch they really are. If that makes you sick and miserable, good, since I know you cannot handle actual science and facts.

    As for me, I’ll stay happy with my family and reality and informed in actual science, instead of being blinded by pseudoscience and blind belief.

  578. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    @joe

    You mean above your petty insults and pseudoscience?

  579. November 21, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    What’s wrong,you don’t want to compare my sons disability to yours.

    Should I try to treat the inflammation? or just let him go on suffering?

    Balls, in your court.

  580. Scotty
    November 21, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    The inflammation is all in your head Joe. There isn’t anything to treat.

  581. November 21, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Again, ordering someone to not find causation. Does not science make!

  582. November 21, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Scotty, do you see how Evil these people are now? That their mask, has been removed.

  583. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 7:18 pm

    Falcon, I would never be presumptuous enough to conclude that the world/science is as it is, and remains status quo. I believe that new theories, research and data, push out the old; ever evolving. I feel I’m rational, mature, and receptive enough to even change my pov to something that we may have believed to be true and conclusive for ages, when our advances of observation techniques allow us to see and discover what we’ve never seen or known before.

    Why do I have the pov I do of vax? If you must know, I’ve done extensive research. [Joe offered this the other evening and you all laughed at and ignored him]. A substance can be injected and cause no harm, but inhaled it kills. Does your group dispute this since you ridiculed Joe? I’ve DONE my investigations and came to my OWN conclusion, thus my pov on the subject of vax.

    I was not even researching vax when I linked on to your site. But when I looked at your comment section, it was apparent that this was a toxic place to debate, and that even had I wanted to participate [again,your topic is not what I was researching, and remains such], that I’d be bullied and booted out the cyber door. Only then did I sign up to cheer on the underdog. I know I will NOT change your pov, and you will NOT change mine. I’m happy with my sources enough to feel confident about what I believe.

    So stalemate… so what? Not the end of the world. While I don’t share your pov, I certainly don’t object to your right to believe it, nor do I ridicule you for doing so. What I objected to on your site, was your modus operandi. [lack of tolerance, excessive harassment, and strong arm tactics.] Then there’s putting words in posters mouth also, saying that we ‘admit to be liars’. Aside from this, I would have NEVER posted on your site to engage in any exchange of technical data.

    There you have it Falcon. Belittle me some more if you like. I’m honest and humble enough to admit that I’m often wrong. Someday new data may surface which will convince me otherwise as to my stand on vax.

    But you here at PREVENTION need to do the same. You could be wrong. That’s why there’s such division in the first place. There is no CONCLUSIVE data to show that our natural evolution doesn’t adapt and build up immunities to disease. Especially when considering the alternative to by-passing our bodies immunological processes; the side effects that many suffer from injecting/ingesting these cocktails all at once.

    I don’t dislike this site because we differ in our opinions on vax. I dislike it because many of you are QUITE MEAN, when we don’t share the same cookie cutter pov that you do.

    I love a good debate, exchanging opposing points of view. But not when I’m insulted and called a liar for doing so…. so not here. Which is why I wouldn’t involve myself in your ‘vax – antivax’ exchanges.

    And because I AM in the middle critical research of a more urgent nature, I really didn’t have time to provide all my sources, just to argue, and then be dismissed as a liar.

    Could I be wrong? Certainly. Could you be wrong? Again, it would be presumptuous of anyone to assume that only their pov is always correct; especially in the realm of science.

    That’s the long of it Falcon. The short of it is, I’ve been there, done that… so reading your technical data was not a priority. Like I said, I was happy with my data, so I wasn’t going to concede and I knew that you weren’t going to either. As soon as any NEW data comes into play I’ll certainly revisit everything.

    Until then, sorry so long, and have a good evening everyone.

    And thank you for your sincere interest Falcon.
    licha

  584. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    Oh Joe and Scotty. What have you done? You got sucked back in. Why are you wasting your time here? I have to leave. I’ll assess the damage later. THIS SITE IS A TOXIC AS THE VAX IT SOLICITS.

  585. November 21, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    Licha, you are correct, they do their job soliciting vaccines. We do ours, by ripping the mask off. To reveal, their Evil.

  586. reissd
    November 21, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    http://badskeptic.com/?p=750

    “Not only is the shill argument empty and sad, it’s one of the most common mistakes made by people in any argument. It’s a logical fallacy, known as an ad hominem. (Against the person.) The crier o’ shill is attacking the person making a statement in an attempt to render that target’s argument invalid, rather than demonstrating any falsehood in the argument through attacking the argument itself.”

  587. November 21, 2013 at 7:55 pm

    Back at ya, pal! You never answered, to anything I asked. You just went straight to insults, so basically you are guilty of what you say we are doing.

    Hello Pot! Meet kettle.

  588. November 21, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    We shall get every dime we can by ECBT then we will sell them boosters for the rest of their lives. Absolutely SICK people!

    ECBT has been taken over by the Pharmaceutical Co’s years ago!Pharmaceutical Co’s that BTW make the poisons they call vaccines. .

  589. reissd
    November 21, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    Sigh. Again, trying to blame everything on a profit motive. I’m sorry it’s so hard for you to understand that people don’t want children to get sick with preventable diseases. But it is your problem, not ours. Vaccines protect children. Your unfounded claims – and they are unfounded – may put them at risk.

  590. Chris
    November 21, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    Also, the Pharma Shill Gambit is old and boring. Joe, licha, Scotty and friends, you need to something new and different. Perhaps actually posting real scientific evidence to support your claims.

  591. November 21, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    It maybe what CDC is spouting, but facts are facts. Dr. Zimmerman said the 9 vaccines caused Hannah s underlying problem to cause her Autistic like symptoms.

    You have a problem,that problem is. That it’s been over decade, since the old law was in force. The old law, is where they could pay for a child for exacerbation.

    Question, why did they pay under the old law. if indeed, that old law was replaced. With one that, forbids payment for exacerbation?

    Answer, to avoid the embarrassment to the Vaccine program and their selves.

  592. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    Joe, do have a source for that? Given you penchant for libel, I have no reason at all to trust what you or even your supporters say.

  593. licha hericane
    November 21, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    Oh my God!! Falcon, please tell my you aren’t one of those autistic adults, crying on the autism speaks comment section, that they don’t want a cure because they feel we are eradicating them. I draw the line there. My civility goes out the window with such a ludicrous and insanely selfish notion. I said the same thing over and over Joe. The site was polluted with these hf brats, with thought processes enough to read, respond, and INSULT, in rapid fashion. Atypical for autistics whose process for language is normally slowed, so response is minimal although the intellect intact.

    Now I have to go check and see if you posted over there. You sound just like them. I’m autistic but I”M a computer programmer. Bully for you. If you can independently function in mainstream society, then why push a label, and how DID you come to be diagnosed anyway? Falcon, is this why you seem to have trouble comprehending some of the material here? They have a whole new society that they feel understands their gifts, and they call themselves Neuro Diverse. They have words like ableist, and they think their autism is some label to make them appear artsy and fashionable.

    Parents were outraged saying, ‘fine if you don’t want cure/prevention, but I want what’s best for my child and that definitely ain’t being autistic’. Do these brainwashed kids not know enough about the brain to realize that autism is NOT normal.

    Joe, this explains so much on this site, if Falcon is one of them. I love it.’You’re not autistic. You just can’t get a date. .I said the same thing only I wasn’t as nice to some of these brats who don’t have a clue. I said ‘fat and ugly’. I wish there was a pm-er, where I could reach out to you and Scotty. I think Scotty, Mike and I all have the right idea here Joe. It’s not worth the stress of beating your head against the wall for these SHEEP…

    There LAX… you may not be a shill… but you sure are a BLIND OBNOXIOUS SHEEP AND A LIAR… YOU’RE A LIAR LAX … LAX IS A LIAR…

    Before I go I want to share with you, Joe and Scotty, that my 28 yr. old daughter just slipped into a catatonic state several weeks ago, due to meds they used in the mid 90’s when they didn’t know what autism was. So I’ve been dealing with vax injury for 23 yrs. now, after she lost what she had already learned, around 5 or 6. She speaks, but minimally. We thought we were in a good place until she became unresponsive and had to be taken to the e.r. And even though my 39 yr. old daughter does NOT have autism, my 4 yr. old grandson does.

    Just say no to vax attacks, which have been the bane of our children’s existence since they came on the scene. Good bye Scotty and Joe. It’s been nice knowing you for a few days. Perhaps we’ll meet again someday in the anti vax, or REAL autism forums. I wish all the best for you and your families as we all stand together in fighting against toxic vax and against the ‘NO CURE’ activists.

    love to you both,
    licha

  594. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Licha, why do you feel the need to read things into what other people say? I never said anything of the sort, and you know it.

  595. novalox
    November 21, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    @licha

    Ah, thanks for admitting that all you are is an obnoxious troll. I do admit, getting on an anti-vaxxer’s nerves is so fun, since they resort to histroinics so easily.

    Also, thanks for admitting that you purposely twist people words. But what should we expect from a known liar like you.

  596. Gray Falcon
    November 21, 2013 at 11:30 pm

    Truth be told, novalox, I’m not sure what she’s doing is entirely intentional. She seems to let her prejudices color what she reads, and fails to see how her words affect others. She gets upset at the slightest hurt, but never seems to realize others have feelings as well.

    I worry about how her children were raised.

  597. November 21, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    Licha, I am so sorry to here about your child’s problems. Those here, haven’t a clue. About what it’s like to be disabled. I hang out at, eoharm@yahoogroups.com Come look me up!

    We will, exchange email addresses.

  598. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    November 22, 2013 at 1:42 am

    Read the comment by Hannah Poling’s mother at AoA. You are incorrect.

  599. November 22, 2013 at 6:53 am

    @Matt – Ms. Poling didn’t seem too happy to have her daughter’s case mis-quoted….even worse was the personal attacks leveled against her by the anti-vaccine zealots…..

  600. November 22, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    Gray, you need to know. That the Simpson wood meeting minutes, are incomplete!

    Those at the meeting, decided to remove all of the bad findings. And then, they released the minutes. Incomplete.

    Do I have proof? Yes, the Idiots generated a letter that was a type of an apology. It goes something like this, “we have recently learned, that safe minds has obtained the minutes
    to the Simpson Wood meeting and there was some findings that we did not tell you about”

    Gray, it should concern you. That those at the meeting, had decided that certain minutes had to be culled. What minutes, did they leave out? All, that was bad! Everyone them.

    Now as I see it, you can either chose to believe your eyes. Or you can just, decide to lie
    to your own self.

    Either way the facts are the facts, and they decided that day that the findings were to dire.
    And they,thought it necessary to lie and deceive their own committee.

    That my friend, is no longer an accident. It’s now elevated to, keeping American children in harms way.

  601. November 22, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    @Joe – actually, they aren’t fact….just because “you” say they are doesn’t mean anything….how about some links or citations or anything to support your blanket assertions?

    I have these:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    What do you have?

  602. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    So in other words, Joe, you have information that nobody else has, but have no evidence of its existence, and expect me to take your word for it. Do you have a bridge to sell me as well? I literally have no reason to trust you.

  603. November 22, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    Joe…good at ya. Maybe next time I’ll give it a go.

  604. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 6:09 pm

    Geoff, do you happen to know where Joe’s finding his information? He comes across as the type of guy who regularly makes up stuff to make himself sound more impressive.

  605. November 22, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    The writing in red, is enough proof that they were not being straight with the American people on the danger they were discussing.

    If safe minds had not obtained the minutes to this the
    simpsonwood meeting we would not had ever known
    this had ever happened to our children.

    Thank god for the FOIA act

    This was the CDC’s chief science officers words to those meeting that day.

    Dr. Bernier: Page 113: “We have asked you to keep this information confidential.

    More from him, at the bottom of this document.

    Please, read the whole thing,not just the parts I highlighted

    The Document
    —————————————————————————-
    Immunization Safety Review
    National Academy of Sciences
    Institute of Medicine, FO 3031
    2101 Constitution Ave., NW
    Washington, DC 20418
    Dear Committee members,
    SAFE MIND’s recently obtained the transcribed minutes to the Simpsonwood meeting held June 7-8, 2000 in Norcross, Georgia where the finding of the Vaccine Safety Datalink analysis of Thimerosal containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes were reviewed by a panel of experts. There were a number of additional findings not previously reported that were contained in this document that I would like to share with the committee. A copy of the entire document is available for the committee’s review along with a list of participants. SAFE MIND’s has summarized a number of comments made by the participants that we feel deserve special consideration by the committee. These comments will be categorized as introductory concerns related to the issue of thimerosal containing vaccines made by participants, CDC’s presentations of the VSD data and discussion comments made after the presentations. The comments in Italics are that of SAFE MIND’s made in reference to the discussion.
    Introductory comments expressed by participants.
    Dr. Johnston: Page 16 comments made in reference to a prior meeting on thimerosal “As an aside, we found cultural differences between vaccinologist and environmental health people in that many of us in the vaccine arena have never thought about uncertainty factors before. We tend to be relatively concrete in our thinking. Probably one of the big cultural events, at least for me, was when Dr. Clarkson repetitively pointed out to us that we just didn’t get it about uncertainty (factors), and he was actually quite right.”
    Dr. Johnston: Page 20: Referring to the mixture of both aluminum and mercury in vaccines.there is absolutely no data including animal data, about the potential for synergy, additivity or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two salts in vaccines.”
    Dr. Clarkson: Page 21: “There is an issue that pharmacokinetics might be different too. Again this is all animal work, but the animal studies suggested, for example, a suckling animal does not eliminate methylmercury until the end of the suckling period, and there is a mechanism on the study for that. So there could be an age difference in the excretion rates.”
    Dr. Weil: Page 24: “One, up until this last discussion we have been talking about chronic exposure. I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem. The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”
    CDC’s presentation of the VSD data by Dr. Verstraeten and Dr. Rhodes.
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 31: ” It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental health. Because I thought it was too much confounding and it’s very hard to prove anything in those studies. Now it turns out that other people also thought that this study was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought we should do.”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposures and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 42: “But one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an under-ascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you would expect because the cohort is still very young.”
    Dr. Verstraten: Page 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significant above one.”
    Dr. Verstraten: Page 45: “What this represents is the overall category of developmental delays, of which I have excluded speech delays because of the impression we had was some of the calculations were driven by this speech group, which was making up about half of this category. After excluding this speech group, the trend is also apparent in this group and the test for trend is also significant for this category excluding speech.”
    Dr Verstraeten: Page 68: “However, among prematures that becomes significant and we get relative risks up to two and three, whereby the ones that got more thimerosal are at a higher risk than the ones who got the combination vaccine.”
    Dr. Weil: Page 75: “I think that what you are saying is in term of chronic exposure. I think that the alternative scenario is that this is repeated acute exposures, and like many repeated acute exposures, if you consider a dose of 25 micrograms on one day, then you are above threshold. At least we think you are, and then you do that over and over to a series of neurons where the toxic effect may be the same set of neurons or the same set of neurologic processes, it is conceivable that the more mercury you get, the more effect you are going to get.”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 78: “Then the last slide I wanted to show, there was a question of if there was any way from this data that we could estimate what would happen in the future if there is Thimerosal-free HepB and Thimerosal-free haemophilus influenza vaccine and only DTP has Thimerosal.” Page 79 “The second column would be the same scenario but now at six months. Assuming they have received two additional DTPs, so between three and six months of age they have increased their ethylmercury amounts by 50 micrograms. If I do in this current cohort with all its limitations, because there is also the HepB that exists in this cohort*, I can’t really take it out. It is significant for this one disorder which is language delay and it is quite high. Together with that, speech or language delay which is a combination of these two disorders, also becomes significant.” * Dr. Verstraeten could not determine which children got HepB at birth in some cases so it was difficult to back the birth dose of Hep B out of the data.
    Dr. Davis: Page 88: “Now one might imagine that [relative risk of 1.018] would just disappear once we actually confirmed these diagnoses from chart review, but in fact it did not. You see if the diagnosis was mentioned in the chart, the relative risk increases ever so slightly.”
    Dr. Rhodes: Page 93: “I think I had two purposes in mind going through the analyses I’ve done. One was a very quick verification that there wasn’t some crucial missing statement in 4,000 lines of programming, and there wasn’t. Tom’s programming was perfectly clear. I also wanted to try to take a different look at the data because I think sometimes we make choices in our analyses. We conceptualize the problem very quickly and then everything else kind of depends on those initial choices and we don’t always go down other pathways. I think we will see that I will approach the data analysis in somewhat of a different way, and I will talk about what some of the results are when I look at the data in somewhat of a different fashion.”
    Dr. Rhodes; Page 99: When you take the three month classification and see what happens to these kids a little later on…even seven to fourteen days later, you can see that there has been substantial movement from zero and the 12.5 mcg group. For example, after seven days at NCK, fully 27% of the zero group has received some sort of vaccination the next seven days and 42% have received some vaccination in the next 14 days. This finding would argue that the proposed thimerosal cohort study involving neurodevelopmental testing should classify exposure by actual exposures the first year of life and not just on the first three months of life.
    Dr. Rhodes: Page 104: “I am not advocating totally throwing them [the low mercury exposure group] away and never considering them in any analysis, but at least for now let’s think if we can establish if there are differences in this group of 37 to 75, then in a sense we really don’t need them.”
    Dr. Rhodes: Page 105: “The other thing that happens at NCK is that even a year or two years after the policy change has been made and all kids are supposedly receiving the combination, there is an odd, small group of kids that supposedly receives separate DTP and Hib (note: with more thimerosal) and an unusually high percentage of those kids are outcomes.”
    Dr. Rhodes Page 106 “For example, if 1,500 kids were receiving one vaccine combination in that month of birth and 20 were receiving some other, I have removed the 20 completely from the analyses.
    Dr Rhodes: Page 107. “So you can push, I can pull. But there has been substantial movement from this very highly significant result down to a fairly marginal result.” Dr. Rhodes recommends excluding the lowest exposure cases, claiming that the fact that their exposures were low suggested family behavior that made them unusual. The low rate of outcomes in this group, of course, added significance. He also suggests excluding some cases that had unusually high exposures and outcomes at the same time, as any high exposure, high outcome group would support the signal.
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 142: “But if I can have the next slide, here instead of the proportional hazard model, we did a logistic regression model. I didn’t use person time here and it’s a bit tough to define exactly the control group. However, if I do it for all ages and not looking at different years, and this is for speech, the outcome is almost identical to the proportional hazard model, which suggests to me that it is not a question of bringing the diagnosis forward, but it is really the overall number that drives this estimate.”
    Dr. Chen: Page 151: “One of the reasons that led me personally to not be so quick to dismiss the findings was that on his own Tom independently picked three different outcomes that he did not think could be associated with mercury (conjunctivitis, diarrhea and injury) and three out of three had a different pattern across different exposure levels as compared to the ones that again on a priority basis we picked as biologically plausible to be due to mercury exposure.”
    to policy.
    Dr Brent: Page 161: “Wasn’t true that if you looked at the population that had 25 micrograms you had a certain risk and when you got to 75 micrograms you had a higher risk.”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: “Yes, absolutely, but these are all at the same time. Measured at the same age at least.”
    Dr. Brent: Page 161: “I understand that, but they are different exposures.”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: “Yes”.
    Dr. Brent: Page 161: “What is your explanation? What explanations would you give for that?”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: “Personally, I have three hypotheses. My first hypotheses is it parental bias. The children that are more likely to be vaccinated are more likely to be picked up and diagnosed. Second hypothesis, I don’t know. There is a bias that I have not recognized, and nobody has yet told me about it. Third hypothesis. It’s true, it’s Thimerosal. Those are my hypotheses.”
    Dr. Brent: Page 161: “If its true, which or what mechanisms would explain the finding with?”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 162: “You are asking for biological plausibility?”
    Dr. Brent: Page 162: “Well, yes”
    Dr. Verstraeten: Page 162: ” When I saw this, and I went back through the literature, I was actually stunned by what I saw because I thought it is plausible. First of all there is the Faeroe study, which I think people have dismissed too easily, and there is a new article in the same Journal that was presented here, the Journal of Pediatrics, where they have looked at PCB. They have looked at other contaminants in seafood and they have adjusted for that, and still mercury comes out. That is one point. Another point is that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don’t know how much you can extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect.”
    Discussion comments made by participants with regard
    Dr. Johnson: Page 198: “This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with thimerosal containing vaccines if suitable alternative preparations are available. I do not believe the diagnoses justifies compensation in the Vaccine Compensation Program at this point. I deal with causality, it seems pretty clear to be that the data are not sufficient one way or the other. My gut feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out a eight o’clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-Section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines.”
    Dr. Weil: Page 207: ” The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary. The Seychelles Island studies and somebody said the Faeroe Islands studies both, were chronic exposures. We are not talking necessarily about chronic exposure. We are talking about a series of acute exposures and at one point in time that exposure is much greater on one day than any of the Seychelles Islands. The increased incidence of neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real. I work in the school system where my effort is entirely in special education and I have to say that the number of kids getting help in special education is growing nationally and state by state at a rate we have not seen before.
    Dr. Weil: Page 208: “The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. We don’t see that kind of genetic change in 30 years.”
    Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”

    ========================================================
    Dir. Hilts read this part again, keep in mind he was saying that the science would bury them a court of law.

    Yet look what they did, they emerged from that meeting willing to deceive
    the American public. Note, that the only person there that day that had any integrity was Dr. Weil the rest were there that day to discuss how to make this go away.

    If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”
    =======================================================
    Dr. Clements: Page 247: “I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough discussion really early on about which way the boat should go at all. And I really want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted, and we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging, even though I hear the majority of consultants say to the Board that they are not convinced there is a causality direct link between Thimerosal and various neurological outcomes. I know how we handle it from here is extremely problematic. The ACIP is going to depend on comments from this group in order to move forward into policy, and I have been advised that whatever I say should not move into the policy area because that is not the point of this meeting. But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. But there is now the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group.
    And I am very concerned about that as I suspect it is already too late to do anything regardless of any professional body and what they say.”
    Dr. Bernier: Page 113: “We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So too basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.”

  606. Chris
    November 22, 2013 at 6:32 pm

    Mr. Harris, were you among those that harassed Dr. Marie McCormick and Dr. Paul Offit, just like you did to a journalist because you “Injoy bugging her“?

    So if you can’t get them to make the science come out to what you want it, you either lie or harass the scientists. From J.B. Handley of the anti-vaccine group Generation Rescue: Misogynistic attacks on journalists who champion science:

    In Denialism, Specter includes a solid chapter about the anti-vaccine movement, Vaccines and the Great Denial, and in that chapter he describes how Marie McCormick, who led the Institute of Medicine panel that produced a seminal report in 2004 scientifically exonerating vaccines as a cause of autism suffered from similar harassment. She now has a guard posted near her office.

    It’s the M.O. of the anti-vaccine movement. Unable to win on science, they try to win through intimidation and smears. As a result, scientists are reluctant to go into autism research, because they quite understandably don’t want the hassle of dealing with the attacks. Ditto vaccine science. After all, all one has to do is to look at the examples of Paul Offit and Marie McCormick to understand why public health officials shy away from getting involved and especially from speaking out in defense of science and against fear mongering. The same is also true of journalists. Indeed, the reaction of the anti-vaccine movement to Wallace’s piece makes me wonder if part of the reason for so much of the false balance and the apparent reluctance of journalists to call out Jenny McCarthy and put her on the spot in an interview has anything to do with the fear. It’s a possibility.

    Also, the quotes from Simpsonwood were strenuously cherry picked to say something that was not meant.

  607. lilady
    November 22, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    Joe Harris:

    Have you ever read the 286 page Simpsonwood Conference Transcripts in their entirety? They are available on line.

    Robert F. Kennedy Junior published a paper that cherry picked those transcripts, which was published by Salon.com. After multiple “corrections”, Salon retracted Kennedy’s article with a scathing rebuke to Mr. Kennedy and an apology to its readership.

    I’ve provided this link to you and your sockies, multiple times. Here it is again:

    http://www.salon.com/2011/01/16/dangerous_immunity/

    Correcting our record

    “We’ve removed an explosive 2005 report by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about autism and vaccines. Here’s why

    In 2005, Salon published online an exclusive story by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. that offered an explosive premise: that the mercury-based thimerosal compound present in vaccines until 2001 was dangerous, and that he was “convinced that the link between thimerosal and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real.”

    The piece was co-published with Rolling Stone magazine — they fact-checked it and published it in print; we posted it online. In the days after running “Deadly Immunity,” we amended the story with five corrections (which can still be found logged here) that went far in undermining Kennedy’s exposé. At the time, we felt that correcting the piece — and keeping it on the site, in the spirit of transparency — was the best way to operate. But subsequent critics, including most recently, Seth Mnookin in his book “The Panic Virus,” further eroded any faith we had in the story’s value. We’ve grown to believe the best reader service is to delete the piece entirely.”

    Please stop bothering us with your multiple inane and untruthful posts. How about getting a J.O.B. to care for your autistic child, who is not, “vaccine damaged”?

  608. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    novalox :
    @licha
    Ah, thanks for admitting that all you are is an obnoxious troll. I do admit, getting on an anti-vaxxer’s nerves is so fun, since they resort to histroinics so easily.
    Also, thanks for admitting that you purposely twist people words. But what should we expect from a known liar like you.

    Novalax, you epitome of repetitive, redundant rhetoric….

    mmmm – I love the smell of fresh SHILL in the evening. :)

    Attn: readers. This site has been dubbed a HATE site by others observing obnoxious and prevaricating behavior from numerous members.

    Don’t come on here expressing anti vax views, and then tell your child’s story of vax injury to this group of heartless antagonists. They will gloss over your child [as in persona non grata] in anticipation of their next jab, not giving you or the injured a second thought.

    I submit that ‘shot of PRETENSIONS NEEDS A SHOT OF COMPASSION.

    Bundle up your babies if you’re out in the northern u.s., and don’t forget while you’re out buying your eggnog to beware of LAX. He could be ANYWHERE.

    And remember, anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  609. November 22, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    You are arguing, with the wrong person! It was a letter, to their own committee. An apology, for removing some of the findings. It just happen to be, only the bad findings. And Oh! are
    ever right!.but it was the participants of the Simpson wood meeting that cherry picked and
    left only the data they wanted the public to know!That my friend, is not science. it is however a criminal act!

    The fact you did not attack the content,you went straight to the attack. Proves my point!

    You are the CDC’s and the Pharmaceutical Co’s PR program. A modern day, NAZI like. Hitler’s, Joseph Goebbels spokes person.

    You twist the truth! that’s your job.

  610. November 22, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    There’s your proof mister Goebbels, start twisting!

  611. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Truth be told, novalox, I’m not sure what she’s doing is entirely intentional. She seems to let her prejudices color what she reads, and fails to see how her words affect others. She gets upset at the slightest hurt, but never seems to realize others have feelings as well.
    I worry about how her children were raised.

    Ya’ know Falcon, that’s the crap the ‘ANTI CURE’ people tried to sell to the parents of autistic children with disabilities that are so severe it precludes them from gainful employment and/or fitting into mainstream society.

    New age, high functioning adult autistics then chastised those of us who objected to their NO CURE stance, and of course we were immaturely told by brats with no kids, that because we seek cures, that we didn’t love our children as they were. HUH?… Then we were ironically told by these young misdiagnosed/labeled autistics that our children have autism because we are bad parents. The lack of logic is staggering. I likened their logic to going back to the dark ages; and that next, they’ll be burning autistic parents at the stake, because we CAUSED their autism… These high functioning and very rude adults weren’t autistic; they were more like ASStistic.

    It is not only VAX that causes the breakdown in our children’s developmental abilities, even after they’ve scored at the top of the class, earlier. It’s the accumulation of the environmental toxins thrown at them all at once, while their brains are in that fragile process. So no! I;m not just anti vax. I’m anti pesticide, anti steroid, and anti chemically induced cloud seeding, etc.

    And vax proponents want your child to get up close and personal with a syringe full of chemicals. How many of you parents that vax, ask the Dr. or nurse the ingredients before following through with the innoculation? And then how many go home and research the ingredients before allowing it into your child? Yet you read the entire label of the side effect literature for every drug the doc prescribes.

    Fork tongue much? This site has said, ‘oh well, when was the last time gov’t. involvement got it right? You don’t really think the gov’t. can handle this or that, do you?’ Yet they expect us to believe in gov’t studies, that of COURSE, will show no correlation for mansontos pesticide riddled corn, or UNSAFE SUBSTANCES WHICH THEY REQUIRE TO BE INJECTED INTO OUR CHILD’S BODIES.

    Thank you Falcon for ADMITTING that your parents are BAD PARENTS, AND THAT YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU ARE EMPATHETIC IS A LIE. THANK YOU FOR ADMITTING THAT YOU’RE NOT TO BE TRUSTED SINCE YOU ADMIT YOU LIE, AND THAT YOU ADMIT THAT VAX IS UNSAFE AND CAN CAUSE LIFELONG DISABILITIES.

    Don’t you dare publically question my parenting skills again young man. You’ve got a lot to learn. I’ve been delicate so far, but please don’t confuse my love of diplomacy for lack of wrath.

    ps. Falcon… I suggested that you had comprehension troubles even BEFORE you mentioned you were autistic; so don’t start with the new age ableist remarks.. And how’s THAT for being an observant parent? Touche licha!

    to those with and without autistic children or any children, real live loving heros are fighting for you, our future generations; and always remember that…

    anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  612. November 22, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    My friend, you might want to read this. Dr. Bernier: Page 113: “We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So too basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.”

    It is not the CDC’s job, to ever hide anything from the American people! Here you have, from their own minutes. Exactly that,CDC’s Dr. Bernier telling everyone to consider all they heard embargoed information!

    Also, here is Dr. Brent. He was wearing the big boy pants that day. And he was found, in the minutes admitting that according to their current information Thimerosal is the culprit.

    Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”

    Nobody cherry picked that,it says what it means. Deal with it!AND STOP LYING, TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!

  613. lilady
    November 22, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    The *Pharma Shill Gambit* and Godwinning the thread…that’s all you’ve got Joe?

    You do know, don’t you, that your child’s autism was not caused by vaccines?

    How’s that J.O.B. search working out for you, Joe?

  614. November 22, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    @Joe – yet, you have offered nothing but Cherry-picked and debunked information…..in return, here is the actual Science….

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

  615. November 22, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Parents, that is if there’s any dumb enough to be on this site. Notice,how they never attack the content. Just the deliverer, of the content.

  616. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    licha- Did it ever occur to you to actually listen to anyone else? All you do is tell people what you think they’re saying, and acting confused when they complain it isn’t. I know for a fact that autism is not caused by vaccines, and your attempts to “cure” your children is taking away time and effort that could be spent helping them in the right ways.

  617. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    Joe Harris :
    Parents, that is if there’s any dumb enough to be on this site. Notice,how they never attack the content. Just the deliverer, of the content.

    Joe, the post right before you provides strong evidence against your claims. How can you post comments like that without accidentally jamming your keyboard up your nose?

  618. November 22, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    NO! NO! NO! answer to the words written by those at the meeting!

    Again, they and you have no! right to ever hide anything from the American people!

    STOP LYING, TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!

  619. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    Joe, we need the actual minutes. The words you posted were taken without any context, and are meaningless on their own.

  620. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    lilady :
    The *Pharma Shill Gambit* and Godwinning the thread…that’s all you’ve got Joe?
    You do know, don’t you, that your child’s autism was not caused by vaccines?
    How’s that J.O.B. search working out for you, Joe?

    PROVE it and stay the heck out of his employment circumstances unless HE brings it up lack FALCON did.

    Are you a scientist that has billions of dollars and your own lab? Or you’re trusting the gov’t to keep you safe and sound, as in agent orange and gee, how about that pyramid for healthy eating. We all have diabetes now and pharma is cleaning up on metformin, insulin, novalex, etc. While I’m not saying this is intentional, I AM SAYING THAT THE GOV’T STUDIES WERE WRONG; THEY LATER FOUND OUT THAT THEY WERE WRONG AND CORRECTED IT.

    HOWEVER THAT’S VERY DIFFERENT FROM LEARNING OF AN ERROR THAT CAUSED HARDSHIP FOR A GENERATION OF A POPULATION FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

    Are you really going to put your child’s life at risk; heeding gov’t produced studies over the testimonies of thousands of parents?

    So you did your own independent studies and you are 100% certain that vax did not make Joe’s or anyone elses’ child sick. You are one smart scientist. I bet you get a nobel peace prize for that, like our good buddy LAX.

  621. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    Licha, how can I be 100% certain you aren’t the one who made Joe or anyone elses’ child sick?

  622. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    licha- Did it ever occur to you to actually listen to anyone else? All you do is tell people what you think they’re saying, and acting confused when they complain it isn’t. I know for a fact that autism is not caused by vaccines, and your attempts to “cure” your children is taking away time and effort that could be spent helping them in the right ways.

    Speak to the hand Falcon. You and your ‘anti cure’ are now PERSONA NON GRATA TO ME!

  623. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    licha: Thanks!

  624. November 22, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Again, attacking me. Without explaining, what those terrorist were saying at that meeting.

    Please, explain. Why a CDC officer, is telling everyone to consider all they heard to be embargoed. That’s against the damn law,that governs thew CDC!

    And why another Dr, is telling everyone he is concerned that they would not be able to defend against lawsuits against a vaccine damaged American child. If they had to face
    them in a real court of law!

    So the Supreme court passes a new law, since vaccines are so unavoidable unsafe they ruled that they cannot allow the vaccine injured to sue the vaccine manufacturers.

    Welcome to Pharmaceutica. .

  625. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Licha, how can I be 100% certain you aren’t the one who made Joe or anyone elses’ child sick?

    I refuse to speak to Falcon and his anti cure cohorts, so will someone please tell him that I again must flag him for ‘lack of logic’.

  626. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    Joe, first prove to us any of that happened in the first place.

    Funny how it is that people who say “think for yourself” get upset when you actually think about what they say instead of swallow it whole.

    licha, can’t you be open-minded enough to accept the possibility your child wasn’t injured by vaccines? We can’t really trust your observations, you regularly forget what you wrote a few hours before.

  627. November 22, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Joe – you need some help….there is something not quite right with you. Perhaps, because of the genetics of autism, you are autistic yourself….which would explain a lot regarding your actions and words here.

  628. November 22, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    This is the original letter, to the committee. Nobody but them, cherry picked the data!

  629. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    Joe, how do we know that’s actually the letter?

  630. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Joe, first prove to us any of that happened in the first place.
    Funny how it is that people who say “think for yourself” get upset when you actually think about what they say instead of swallow it whole.
    licha, can’t you be open-minded enough to accept the possibility your child wasn’t injured by vaccines? We can’t really trust your observations, you regularly forget what you wrote a few hours before.

    Someone tell Falcon that he again puts words in my mouth. He is the one who forgets what’s written. I said only yesterday, that I did my research and I’ve concluded dadada…

    I also said that ‘should new research become available, I will certainly revisit new data, to determine whether or not I stand by my conclusion or decide that the data is unequivocal enough to change my mind.’ I don’t think one can be MORE open minded then that.

    What about Falcon and pretensions? How open minded are you?

    Please remind Falcon to fully comprehend my comments before responding.

  631. lilady
    November 22, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    Joe, Wasn’t your claim for autism vaccine injuries for your child denied in the Vaccine Court?

    How’s that J.O.B. search going?

  632. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    licha, do you think I haven’t read the anti-vaccine talking points? I’ve seen they, and they fall short. Irreproducable results, unethical research protocols, and oftentimes a misunderstanding of the most basic tenets of science. I head studied them, and rejected them on their merits.

  633. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Joe – yet, you have offered nothing but Cherry-picked and debunked information…..in return, here is the actual Science….
    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

    Oh thank you for the research from studies done by computerized forms and PAPER DIAGNOSIS. That’s medical terminology for when one isn’t physically examined. I’m impressed. Not on my CHILD’S life.

  634. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    lilady :
    Joe, Wasn’t your claim for autism vaccine injuries for your child denied in the Vaccine Court?
    How’s that J.O.B. search going?

    How’s your JOB going lady. I dying to hear all about your personal life. And since I’m not speaking to Falcon, I have all the more time for you to fill in the juicy details.

  635. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    Funny how licha had no qualms speaking to me in #634. So much for her unconditional surrender. Equally amusing how someone who demands I have an “open mind” rejects dozens of studies out of hand.

  636. lilady
    November 22, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    Have you run through your entire schtick Joe?

    http://skeweddistribution.com/2013/07/01/parents-who-regret-vaccine-refusal/

    Joe, Wasn’t your claim for autism vaccine injuries for your child denied in the Vaccine Court?

    http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=644779

    How’s that J.O.B. search going?

  637. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Falcon, just this once, I’m gunna’ hold your hand and walk you over to my lengthy post from yesterday, where I show that I understand you’ve done research and I’ve done research, and we’ve come to separate conclusions. Now didn’t I provide a warm fuzzy and say ‘I’m ok, you’re ok?’. You KNOW I did.

    I’ve studied YOUR same data and nothing was unequivocal enough to deter me. Even if I myself didn’t have autism in my family, I would question why such a large percentage of our young population has now been overshadowed by such bizarre cognitive regressions.

    So if I were speaking to you Falcon, to what do you attribute your autism to? Do you ever think the gov’t lies and covers up things they don’t want the public privy to? If they purposefully poison our soldiers, why do you think they care about the children of others? Can you unconditionally say that you trust the gov’t 100%. Or do you realize that our policies and legislation is for sale to the highest bidder… and by golly if that ain’t monsanto and big pharma.

    The biggest priority I have when I research Falcon, is my source. When I consider the source from the gov’t., I CONSIDER THE SOURCE, and look for independent studies.

    Again, as I also offered yesterday; you won’t change my pov, and I won’t change yours. I’m not naive enough to imagine I’d do so. And that’s not even why I posted. For the 50th time, I posted since I didn’t like the tone of your site. And after the past several nights, I see that I’m not the only one who feels this way.

    Please stop asking questions that I answered in other posts and again I’m asking very nicely to carefully comprehend and remember what you’re reading.

  638. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    lilady :
    Have you run through your entire schtick Joe?
    http://skeweddistribution.com/2013/07/01/parents-who-regret-vaccine-refusal/
    Joe, Wasn’t your claim for autism vaccine injuries for your child denied in the Vaccine Court?
    http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=644779
    How’s that J.O.B. search going?

    How’s your love life lady. Are ‘ya gettin’ enough? You seem pretty bored. I doubt you’re getting any. Why else would you be hounding a stranger about their personal life. How’s it feel lady. Aw! Not willing to share?

  639. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    Licha, did you bother to check the sources of the studies we gave you? Many of them are independent. Meanwhile, a good number of the sources you use are by people who have a financial interest.

  640. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    licha hericane :
    Falcon, I would never be presumptuous enough to conclude that the world/science is as it is, and remains status quo. I believe that new theories, research and data, push out the old; ever evolving. I feel I’m rational, mature, and receptive enough to even change my pov to something that we may have believed to be true and conclusive for ages, when our advances of observation techniques allow us to see and discover what we’ve never seen or known before.
    Why do I have the pov I do of vax? If you must know, I’ve done extensive research. [Joe offered this the other evening and you all laughed at and ignored him]. A substance can be injected and cause no harm, but inhaled it kills. Does your group dispute this since you ridiculed Joe? I’ve DONE my investigations and came to my OWN conclusion, thus my pov on the subject of vax.
    I was not even researching vax when I linked on to your site. But when I looked at your comment section, it was apparent that this was a toxic place to debate, and that even had I wanted to participate [again,your topic is not what I was researching, and remains such], that I’d be bullied and booted out the cyber door. Only then did I sign up to cheer on the underdog. I know I will NOT change your pov, and you will NOT change mine. I’m happy with my sources enough to feel confident about what I believe.
    So stalemate… so what? Not the end of the world. While I don’t share your pov, I certainly don’t object to your right to believe it, nor do I ridicule you for doing so. What I objected to on your site, was your modus operandi. [lack of tolerance, excessive harassment, and strong arm tactics.] Then there’s putting words in posters mouth also, saying that we ‘admit to be liars’. Aside from this, I would have NEVER posted on your site to engage in any exchange of technical data.
    There you have it Falcon. Belittle me some more if you like. I’m honest and humble enough to admit that I’m often wrong. Someday new data may surface which will convince me otherwise as to my stand on vax.
    But you here at PREVENTION need to do the same. You could be wrong. That’s why there’s such division in the first place. There is no CONCLUSIVE data to show that our natural evolution doesn’t adapt and build up immunities to disease. Especially when considering the alternative to by-passing our bodies immunological processes; the side effects that many suffer from injecting/ingesting these cocktails all at once.
    I don’t dislike this site because we differ in our opinions on vax. I dislike it because many of you are QUITE MEAN, when we don’t share the same cookie cutter pov that you do.
    I love a good debate, exchanging opposing points of view. But not when I’m insulted and called a liar for doing so…. so not here. Which is why I wouldn’t involve myself in your ‘vax – antivax’ exchanges.
    And because I AM in the middle critical research of a more urgent nature, I really didn’t have time to provide all my sources, just to argue, and then be dismissed as a liar.
    Could I be wrong? Certainly. Could you be wrong? Again, it would be presumptuous of anyone to assume that only their pov is always correct; especially in the realm of science.
    That’s the long of it Falcon. The short of it is, I’ve been there, done that… so reading your technical data was not a priority. Like I said, I was happy with my data, so I wasn’t going to concede and I knew that you weren’t going to either. As soon as any NEW data comes into play I’ll certainly revisit everything.
    Until then, sorry so long, and have a good evening everyone.
    And thank you for your sincere interest Falcon.
    licha

    to the HAND Falcon. I’m going to be upset with anti cure [so YOU] for ‘forever’. so get used to it. Last paragraph states, ‘been there, done that… so reading your technical data was NOT [AND IS NOT] a priority.

    To the contrary, I don’t visit sites that solicit ANYTHING, even though every other ad is pharma. I specifically look for data that does not gain from their research.

    My HAND says ‘gnight Falcon, and I’m not answering any more questions until you answer some of mine.

  641. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Licha, did you bother to check the sources of the studies we gave you? Many of them are independent. Meanwhile, a good number of the sources you use are by people who have a financial interest.

    The HAND also says ps… I NEVER TOLD YOU WHAT SOURCE I USE… OH YOU’RE A SLY ONE FALCON…

    sweet dreams of lovely healthy children filling the planet; singing, and dancing and LAUGHING like they did until the 3rd grade. – for YOU too, Falcon, not that you’re not loved just as you are.- nitie nite pretentious babies. – sleep well.

  642. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    Translation: licha doesn’t have an answer.

  643. licha hericane
    November 22, 2013 at 11:49 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Translation: licha doesn’t have an answer.

    ‘I make not speak ‘pretensions’ but I understand it, and your translation is wrong and it’s a LIE. Me and my HAND are done being nice to you Falcon. Half the time you write and act like a little boy, and then you turn around and try to be a big bad bully. You’re a LIAR. Where the HELL did you read that I don’t have an answer? I’ve answered each one of your questions 10 times, because you’re not comprehending, and asking over and over and over. Sheesh, I tried to be extra nice, because of your ‘autism’??? So what’s the story there Falcon baby. Don’t you wanna’ tell us how GREAT it is to be autistic and how your parents made you that way ’cause they didn’t lube ya enuf? Wawa!

    If you have a hard time understanding the material on this page, where do you get off telling other’s what to do with their children’s lives? Why should we even trust someone with such an apparent cognitive disability?” The HAND says, ‘end quote here.

    Caution readers: frequenting the self absorbed, arrogant, HATEFUL members on this site may lead to a habit of pulling off butterfly wings. Enter at your own risk.

    Also beware that anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  644. Gray Falcon
    November 22, 2013 at 11:50 pm

    licha, why in the world do you think I care what you think about me? You’ve deliberately misrepresented me so many times I don’t even need to respond to you. Everyone knows you’re a liar.

  645. November 23, 2013 at 12:14 am

    I don’t, in fact I find her very intelligent and a good person. That’s in it for her child,not for the Ck. Like, some.

  646. Gray Falcon
    November 23, 2013 at 12:16 am

    That’s because you’re a fellow liar, Joe.

  647. November 23, 2013 at 12:19 am

    The sources you use,they are bought and paid for. Corruption runs rampant in the NIH AAP CDC FDA and the WHO.

  648. lilady
    November 23, 2013 at 12:25 am

    Joe, why don’t you submit an article to Age of Autism? I heard they are accepting articles from parents of autistic children whose claims for “vaccine-induced autism” was denied by the Vaccine Court.

  649. licha hericane
    November 23, 2013 at 12:28 am

    Joe Harris :
    I don’t, in fact I find her very intelligent and a good person. That’s in it for her child,not for the Ck. Like, some.

    Thank you Joe <3

  650. licha hericane
    November 23, 2013 at 12:32 am

    Gray Falcon :
    licha, why in the world do you think I care what you think about me? You’ve deliberately misrepresented me so many times I don’t even need to respond to you. Everyone knows you’re a liar.

    R rated for HATE content. Entering this site increases your chance of being called a LIAR. A LIAR… A LIAR… A LIAR… I’m using it often because you’re all so enamored with it.

    Anyone who call someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  651. November 23, 2013 at 12:32 am

    Correction, she doesn’t have answer your looking for. You see, she done her own research.
    She did not leave it up to people, who when they found out they poisoned a generation of American children. Went to a secret meeting,and the first thing that was on their minds was that they were in a bad position from the standpoint of defending against lawsuits. If they were initiated. They showed no concern, at all for the children! What, so ever!

    That’s the ilk! the sick vermin you trust.

  652. licha hericane
    November 23, 2013 at 12:34 am

    lilady :
    Joe, why don’t you submit an article to Age of Autism? I heard they are accepting articles from parents of autistic children whose claims for “vaccine-induced autism” was denied by the Vaccine Court.

    Joe, I think this LADY is after some of your payout. She seems mighty interested in your personal life.

  653. licha hericane
    November 23, 2013 at 12:37 am

    Gray Falcon :
    That’s because you’re a fellow liar, Joe.

    Nope… that’s the thankless job of you shills… ya may get the big bucks…BUT YA GOTTA BE LIARS…LIARS…LIARS….LIARS…. SHOT OF PRETENTIONS ARE LYING SHILLS.

    Anyone who calls someone who isn’t a liar, a liar, is a LIAR! ;)

  654. Gray Falcon
    November 23, 2013 at 1:48 am

    As established earlier, the very act of calling us “shills” is an outright lie, an attempt to silence debate through an act of libel. How someone can protest their honesty while doing so is something good people should not contemplate.

  655. November 23, 2013 at 9:48 am

    @Gray – both licha & Joe verge on incoherence……Joe seems to have some difficulty putting together complete thoughts (and his formatting is quite odd and off-putting), not to mention that he cannot provide any sort of actual evidence or links to any of his citations….

    licha, on the other hand, seems consumed with pointing out fallacious semantic arguments, none of which have contributed one whit to the discussion here.

    If either of them were interested in discussing real issues or the Science around vaccine safety or the Congressional Hearing (thank goodness people came to their senses & had them cancelled), they would provide real evidence or at least make an attempt to put together a coherent argument.

    Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case…..since they are both consumed with “shills” and “conspiracies” as their main talking points, it is useless to attempt to engage them.

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