Home > In the News, Preventable Diseases > Explaining Measles Outbreaks Despite High Vaccination Status

Explaining Measles Outbreaks Despite High Vaccination Status

September 19, 2013

Last week, the CDC released the 2012 National and State NIS Data for Children, for ages 19 to 35 months. The report indicated that 90% of children in the U.S. are fully immunized for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR); polio; Hepatitis B and varicella.  Additionally while only 0.8% of children surveyed were completely unvaccinated, the economic disparities that often accompany vaccine uptake have seem to narrow compared to what we’ve seen in the past.

Dr. Anne Schuchat, who directs the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC emphasized that

  “These are really good results. We’ve come a long way in the 20 years since the Vaccines for Children program was established,”

And she explains,

 “A provider or clinician recommendation is the strongest influence on what parents do,” Schuchat said.

So while we applaud the immunization successes we are seeing and the providers who continue to educate their patients about the benefits of vaccines, some still wonder why we are  seeing so many outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases, especially measles. In exploring this concern it’s important to note a couple of concerning trends.

The first is that those who choose not to vaccinate often cluster together.  For instance, there have been three significant measles outbreaks that have been responsible for the majority of the 159 cases so far this year; 58 cases were from New York City, 23 from North Carolina, and 20 from Texas.  When looking at a complete rundown of the cases, it’s clear that many are a result of unvaccinated individuals who return to the U.S. after traveling to another country and contracting measles there.   What we’re seeing is that about 82% of these cases involved people who were unvaccinated (82%) and another 9% who had unknown immunization status.

In Texas, for instance, the outbreak began with an unvaccinated individual who traveled overseas and returned unknowingly infected with measles.  After this person attended church services, the disease began spreading among a church congregation that was often advised against vaccination by their very own pastor.   

Another concern to address is the rising number of personal belief vaccine exemptions being filed in various schools across the country.  Like minded people tend to flock together and nothing exemplifies this better than the pockets of unvaccinated children in certain schools.  For instance, there is a fast-growing charter school in the Sacramento area of California that tends to cater to families from the former Soviet Union.  Since many of these parents distrust vaccines, about 58% of kindergartners at the school have personal belief exemptions on file.  Another 8% of the children in this school have medical exemptions, which may suggest that their health could be compromised if they were to suffer with symptoms of a vaccine preventable disease.

In schools with such drastically low immunization rates, public health officials worry that an outbreak of disease could have serious consequences to the health of those children who either didn’t confer immunity after receiving the recommended vaccines, are medically unable to be vaccinated or who are purposely unvaccinated.  To a public health official, these schools are like ticking time-bombs.  Yet, we continually hear parents of who choose not to vaccinated their child questioning how an unvaccinated child could be a risk to a vaccinated child.

 “Aren’t your child’s vaccines supposed to protect him?  What are you worried about then?”

While an unvaccinated child is 35 times more likely to contract measles as compared to a vaccinated child, as long as the disease is circulating it remains a threat to everyone. We must acknowledge that vaccines are not 100% effective, 100% of the time, which explains why parents of vaccinated children are still concerned about their children contracting a disease, especially if they are surrounded by others who are unvaccinated.

measles7Let’s take the measles vaccine for example.  It’s one of the most effective vaccines we have,.  Only about 2 to 5% of people do not respond to their first dose of measles vaccine.  And remarkably, after two doses of measles vaccine more than 99% of people develop immunity to measles.  This is almost perfect, but still, not a 100% guarantee. 

With every vaccine there is an issue of efficacy.  In the case of measles, a person may not confer immunity with the first dose.  The second dose of measles vaccine was not added to the recommended schedule until 1985, which means that people born before 1985 may be completely unaware of the benefit of a second dose, and therefore may remain under-immunized.  Then, one day, when they decide to take a vacation to a place like England, that is experiencing a measles epidemic, they have just increased their chances of exposure and subsequent illness, despite the fact that they are vaccinated. 

Additionally, there will always be a segment of the population who can’t be vaccinated.  Either they have a medical issue that prevents vaccination, or they are too young to be fully vaccinated.  In the case of measles, research indicates that infants acquire passive immunity from their mothers during pregnancy and breastfeeding.  However, since these maternal antibodies may interfere with vaccine induced immunity, the first dose of measles vaccine is delayed until the child is 12 months of age.  Of course, the timing of all this is extremely complex and it’s quite possible that the passive immunity can wane in some infants before the vaccine is received, leaving an infant exposed to disease at a time when they are at greatest risk for complications.

The measles outbreaks we are witnessing today help illustrate how a highly vaccinated population is still susceptible to disease outbreaks as a result of less-than-ideal vaccination coverage and inadequate immunity levels.  While we are grateful that 90% of children are being vaccinated, we must remain vigilant in addressing the pockets of unvaccinated people who can easily serve as a reservoir for a variety of diseases that are preventable, yet still exist.  In the past, we’ve relied on providers to help educate parents and state legislatures to control school vaccination exemption policies.  But the time has come for concerned parents to play a vital role as well, as we work to counter the enormous amount of misinformation that continues to circulate in internet chat rooms and social media forums.

  1. September 19, 2013 at 11:19 am

    This is why it’s so important to ensure high vaccination rates!!! There are always cracks in every vaccine’s coverage and the more people who are vaccinated, the more we can prevent these from being exploited by circulating virus (by preventing the circulation of the virus in the first place). 159 measles cases is fewer than before the vaccine but is on track to be more cases this year than in many, many, many years. And anyone whose too-young-for-vaccine child caught measles due to the selfish inaction of somebody who did not vaccinate their own child, knows that even one case is too many. Vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate!!

  2. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 11:35 am

    I have met people who live in areas of high non-vaccination rates and have children, and they are worried, knowing that other people’s decisions put their newborns and even older children at risk.

  3. September 19, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    @Saul – correct. It is about high vaccination rates in general (to prevent a larger outbreak in the population), but very important that these smaller communities of non-vaccinated individuals are highly suceptible for localized mass outbreaks……it cuts both ways, unfortunately.

  4. Richard
    September 19, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Care to explain this? Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary-school population, Corpus Christi in 1984 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3821823

    A virtually fully immunized (>99%) school population still experienced a measles outbreak. This has happened countless other times as well. The fact is, the measles vaccine is not effective. You can still get measles if you have the vaccine. So why the huge push to “eradicate” measles – it cannot be done with pushing more and more people to vaccinate.

  5. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    To remind you, Richard, in 1985 we were still using one dose of MMR in some children – the outbreaks were one of the things that led to a move to two doses. Note how much lower the rates where in those that got two doses (0-3.3) than those that got one dose (3.6-6.8). Also note: out of a school of 1806, 17 students – less than 1% – contracted measles. Far from a vaccine failure. Do you have any examples of outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations since the general move to two doses?

  6. September 19, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    @Richard – consider yourself, explained.

  7. September 19, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    @Richard

    There are several factors at play in that outbreak. First, at the time, the stabilizer used in the vaccine was suboptimal, meaning that the vaccine was more susceptible to variations in temperature and poor handling, leading to decreased efficacy. Second, poor handling was a big problem at the time; primary care physicians would leave vaccine vials out, fridges did not maintain a constant temperature, but instead fluctuated outside the zone needed to preserve the vaccine. A third factor is that the two-dose schedule of vaccine was not recommended yet (that came in 1990). It was becoming known at that time that a single dose of measles vaccine was less effective than a two-dose series. Another factor is age at vaccination. Those vaccinated under 12 months of age had a higher rate of vaccine failure (likely due to maternal antibodies) than those immunized at 12-15 months of age.

    The situation in the 1980s was not good, from a vaccination standpoint. Improvements had to be made, and they were. Fast forward to the present day, where we see outbreaks occurring almost exclusively among the unvaccinated, while the rate of attack in vaccinated individuals is incredibly low.

    If you’d like to try to claim that measles outbreaks occur mostly in the vaccinated, you’ll need to show some good evidence (preferably present-day, rather than from a period where we already know that there had been problems we subsequently fixed). Oh, but if you do present evidence, make sure you read and understand the studies.

  8. September 19, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    And here is a much more recent case –

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    Shows where we are today & what is the usual cause of these outbreaks (surprise, surprise – an unvaccinated individual).

  9. September 19, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Oh, and one other thing. Those who do have breakthrough disease despite being vaccinated generally have a milder illness and do not pass it along to others.

  10. dingo199
    September 19, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Lawrence :
    And here is a much more recent case –
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm
    Shows where we are today & what is the usual cause of these outbreaks (surprise, surprise – an unvaccinated individual).

    It’s almost quaint how the antivaxers say “Why worry? Your vaccinated kids are not at risk from our unvaccinated ones”, and with the next breath say: “See how many vaccinated kids got measles in that outbreak? The vaccines obviously don’t work”.

    Of course they see no paradox here, their lack of insight and logic is legendary.

  11. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    dingo, “It’s almost quaint how the antivaxers say “Why worry? Your vaccinated kids are not at risk from our unvaccinated ones”, and with the next breath say: “See how many vaccinated kids got measles in that outbreak? The vaccines obviously don’t work”.

    Of course they see no paradox here, their lack of insight and logic is legendary.”

    We only say, “your vaccinated kids shouldn’t worry because they are vaccinated” because that is what your preach. That you need to get vaccinated to protect yourself from diseases. We know vaccines don’t protect you of course, but we like to throw it back at you. There is no lack of insight here.

  12. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    No serious pro-vaccine individual claims that vaccines are 100% effective, and many of us would rather not take a 1%, 5%, or 15% chance our child would be sick, so you’re not throwing anything back at us: we never deny the risk. But a child vaccinated with a vaccine that is 95% effective is at a much lower risk than an unvaccinated child. Your unvaccinated child is a slight risk to my vaccinated child, if my child is one of those who suffered vaccine failure. But your unvaccinated child herself is much, much more at risk of vaccine preventable diseases. That is sad.

  13. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    And since most of anti-vaxers probably had explained to them several time that your unvaccinated child is at risk to the too young to vaccinate, those with medical conditions, and the few that suffer vaccine failure, the continued question really does reflect either lack of sincerity or lack of understanding.

  14. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Completely disagree with you reissd. My almost fully grown unvaccinated kids have been the healthiest kids of all of there friends. This experience proves to me we made the right decision not to vaccinate. There were various outbreaks of different diseases in both kids schools in the last few years and my kids never got any of the diseases and many of their vaccinated friends did.

    Also, you are wrong about “lack of sincerity” etc. We have every right to make decisions about our own personal health. People have there own reasons for not vaccinating and you have no idea what they are. In our case, a cousin had a bad vaccine reaction and another cousin got autism after vaccinations so we decided not to risk it because of possible family genetics. So please don’t tell me I don’t have the right as a parent to do what I feel is best for my children.

  15. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    First, let me apologize: I was not trying to imply you are insincere in opposition to vaccines; I was saying the question was insincere. That’s all. I do believe many of the anti-vaxers are very sincere in opposition to vaccines.

  16. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    As to your grown unvaccinated kids – you were lucky. Lucky that most people around you still vaccinate and protect your children against polio, diphtheria, HiB and the rest; and lucky that you children did not get sick during the outbreaks. They’re still more at risk, as the data shows.

  17. September 19, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    Both of my kids are fully vaccinated & I can’t remember the last time they were sick with anything more than a cold…..my story negates yours, so that’s why we end up relying on Science to make public health decisions….

  18. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    reissd, I agree they may be more at risk (but not by much) of getting a disease. But they also are not at risk of a vaccine injury.

  19. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    Lawrence, It’d not about negating each other. You have your family and health and we have ours.

  20. September 19, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    @Mikael – “not by much?” Really? Did you even read the complications that are common with Vaccine Preventable Diseases, as opposed to the extremely rare reactions to vaccines?

  21. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    Lawrence, Did you even read my family history? Your idea of “extremely rare” and my idea are completely different, since my kids have two cousins that had vaccine reactions.

    Also, you already admitted that vaccines are not 100% effective and especially if you don’t keep up on your boosters.

    Just because you can’t see where I am coming from or choose to ignore it, doesn’t mean my reasons for not vaccinating are not valid.

  22. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    There’s a difference between “understandable” and valid. I can understand your fear if you believe two of your family members had a vaccine reaction. I’m saying it that way because anyone who had been in this discussion for a while comes across stories of alleged vaccine reaction that on examination have a very problematic connection to vaccines (like the stories that vaccines cause autism, which the studies show is not the case). That does not make your decision the correct one. It’s still clearly much safer to vaccinate than to not vaccinate. You are falling into a cognitive bias that makes people think things they are familiar with are more common than they are.
    Not 100% means just that. 95% protection is still very, very high. Not vaccinating because there’s a low chance the vaccine will fail is not anymore justified than not putting on a seatbelt because there’s a small chance it will injure you – especially when not vaccinating harms herd immunity, which offers an extra layer of protection.
    And serious vaccine reactions – as opposed to mild ones – are very rare. Here is a comparison of the harms of vaccines and diseases: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/D35CD18A3985212ECA2574E2000F9A4F/$File/quick_sideeffects.pdf. And an analysis of the number of cases compensated by the NVICP, showing how small it is.

  23. September 19, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    @Mikael – then you are arguing in the wrong place. You made a personal choice (a dangerous and misguided one, but still a valid choice) – you should not expect that Public Health Policy is going to be guided by anything other than valid medical evidence & sound science.

  24. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    Familiar is common when you’re talking about family genetics. I didn’t say my neighbors had reactions. That’s the piece you are missing.

    Also, I don’t believe that all vaccines give you even 95% protection, so I don’t compare against that figure.

  25. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Lawrence, you are the dangerous one. You refuse to listen to my personal story, fears and concerns, and blow it off as a misguided, dangerous, decision. Your tunnel vision is more dangerous than I could ever be.

  26. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    “Familiar is common when you’re talking about family genetics.” True, but not all reactions are going to be genetic. And they still are rare. “Also, I don’t believe that all vaccines give you even 95% protection, so I don’t compare against that figure.” Not all vaccines, no. But several do. And whooping cough and flu are the only ones where effectiveness is a problem – and as pointed above, even if a vaccine does not prevent the disease, it often reduces severity (e.g. chicken pox – vaccine 70-90% effective in preventing, but 90-100% effective in preventing moderate or severe cases).

  27. September 19, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    @Mikael – again, public health policies are not determined by personal stories, but by hard Science and real evidence.

  28. Chris
    September 19, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    Richard:

    Care to explain this? Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary-school population, Corpus Christi in 1984…

    It was almost thirty years ago, just thirteen years after the introduction of the MMR vaccine,, and so there was both undervaccination and some with what we now were ineffective forms of the measles vaccine.

    Care to explain why you need to us old evidence, especially since both the vaccine and vaccine policy were changed over decade ago.

    Mikael: “Also, I don’t believe that all vaccines give you even 95% protection, so I don’t compare against that figure.”

    Actually that is true. It is just that the MMR vaccine when given twice provides about 99% protection for measles. But that is not the same for mumps. And as someone who got mumps twice in the 1960s because even getting it does not confer perfect immunity, it is not fair to expect more from the vaccine.

    Still measles is very very infectious, and 95% coverage is needed to provide enough community immunity to protect those who are in the 1%, babies under age one and those who cannot be vaccinated, like your family. Unfortunately, as the outbreaks have shown 90% is not enough when there is international air travel.

    If your family is indeed one of those that has a proven medical condition to precludes MMR vaccination, then you should be promoting it for all those who can be vaccinated. You children have benefited from community immunity, but if they should encounter a pocket of those who refuse vaccines, or if they travel overseas, they may no longer stay healthy. Because if they can be harmed by a vaccine, they face greater danger from the actual disease.

    Now if you have evidence that the MMR vaccine causes more injury in the general population than the disease please provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher.

  29. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    reissd, I respect your opinion and information. Thank you!

  30. Mikael
    September 19, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    Lawrence, and again the “hard science” you speak of did not dispute the two vaccine injuries in my family. So there you go.

  31. Lawrence
    September 19, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    Ummmm….vaccines don’t cause autism, that’s hard science.

    As to the other, please point us to your VAERS entry and docket # for the vaccine court filing.

  32. Chris
    September 19, 2013 at 6:32 pm

    Mikael:

    “hard science” you speak of did not dispute the two vaccine injuries in my family.

    There is no possible way for us to confirm or deny your story without all of the unbiased evidence. This is reason why personal stories are not evidence, they are anecdotes. Fortunately in the USA there is a recourse for those who believe their children were harmed by vaccines: National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. They even pay for the lawyers.

    But looking at the statistics, less than 450 cases of injury from a measles containing vaccine has been compensated in almost twenty five years. That is out of several millions of measles containing vaccines that have been give. This is data from the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:
    Disease: Measles in the USA
    Year__Cases____Deaths
    1988____3,396____3
    1989___18,193___32
    1990___27,786___64
    1991____9,643___27
    1992____2,237____4
    1993______312____0
    1994______963____0
    1995______309____2
    1996______508____1
    1997______138____2
    1998______100____0
    1999______100____2
    2000_______86____1
    2001______116____1
    2002_______44____0
    2003_______56____1
    2004_______37____0
    2005_______66____1
    2006_______55____0
    2007_______43____0
    2008______140___NA
    2009_______70___NA

    That is at least 140 deaths, and that may go up if measles outbreaks increase in the USA. And remember for every death there is at least a few more that are permanently disabled, and some very costly hospitalizations. So unless you can come up with compelling scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine, which has been used since 1971, causes that level of injury, we will still encourage community immunity through vaccination.

  33. Lawrence
    September 19, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Nice retort……guess you don’t have anything else to add, like VAERS entries or a Vaccine Court filing, do you?

  34. Quokka
    September 19, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    Mikael – my vaccine story is my deaf SIL because her mother caught Rubella during pregnancy from an unvaccinated child visiting from another farm. Because they lived on a farm at the time and there was no special school available she had to be schooled in Johannesburg away from her family for most of her childhood. The entire family suffered terrible emotional and psychological distress and although my SIL has achieved a great deal in her life she still cries when talking about being separated from her family at the end of every school holiday period.

    I accept that you feel justified in your decision but bragging about it – not cool.

  35. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    @Quokka – consider if you’re comfortable sharing that story – or if your SIL would be comfortable sharing it – on the “Before Vaccines” blog: http://beforevaccines.blogspot.com. You can contact me through it.

  36. Quokka
    September 19, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    Hi reissd. I will ask her – we communicate via skype as I am in in Australia. She is a great lady and soon to be mother which is of real concern to her because her husband also communicates purely with signing and they are very concerned about ensuring language development in their babies – one persons choice impacts generation after generation.

  37. Chris
    September 19, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    Quokka, I have been told by some that kids of deaf parents do speak normally. Learning sign language is not a detriment. That is exemplified by the professor who taught my first ever computer programming class, both his parents were deaf: Richard Ladner. Just tell her that her child will be beautifully bilingual!

  38. reissd
    September 19, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    She sounds like a great lady. I understand her concerns – and hope Chris’ answer helps.

  39. Chris
    September 19, 2013 at 11:55 pm

    By the way, my oldest son had a severe speech disability and only communicated with sign language when he was three years old. The special ed. school program he went into at age three was a direct off shoot of the local deaf/hard of hearing program. They kept getting kids who could not speak, but could hear… so they created a separate program.

    This is why I learned a bit about deaf culture, and education. Which included reading both Train Go Sorry and Deaf Like Me. The first one is written by a daughter of deaf parents. There are probably more recent books, but this was way before autism became more of focus of attention. In the early 1990s most speech/language disorder literature was focused on deaf/hard of hearing, not autism. Now that has changed.

    I blame the MMR vaccine for reducing the numbers of deaf kids from measles, mumps, congenital rubella syndrome, Hib… and other forms of vaccine preventable meningitis. ;-)

  40. Chris
    September 20, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Ooops… “Hib… and other forms of vaccine preventable meningitis” were prevented by other newer vaccines! The MMR has been around since 1971, the others are much more recent. So recent that I have met a parent who lost a child due to Hib, and known others whose kids were disabled by Hib.

    Sorry about the obvious mistake in my sentence.

  41. Jetcityjewel
    September 20, 2013 at 12:12 pm

    Lawrence :
    And here is a much more recent case –
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm
    Shows where we are today & what is the usual cause of these outbreaks (surprise, surprise – an unvaccinated individual).

    Question about herd immunity if anyone could answer but is it not true too that unvaccinated populations also allow for VPDs to mutate into more vaccine-resistant strains? Is that a real concern or only theoretical possibility? For example, I know the recent mumps outbreaks seen were of a strain not in the vaccine.

  42. Mikael
    September 20, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Quokka, “I accept that you feel justified in your decision but bragging about it – not cool.”

    Please clarify, I have no idea what you are talking about?

  43. September 20, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    @JCJ – luckily for us, most of the Vaccine Preventable Diseases that we have current vaccinations for are fairly stable….meaning they mutate very little over time or in ways that don’t effect the overall effectiveness of vaccines. Unfortunately, both pertussis and the flu mutate far more rapidly and in ways that do have an effect on the overall vaccine profile – though the flu is by far the worst offender (though current research is beginning to show ways in which a more “universal” flu vaccine could be made).

  44. Jetcityjewel
    September 20, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    That is what I am slowly starting to understand and as a lay person it is hard to understand these things – points to how much work it actually takes to be truly “educated” about this. Google isn’t a replacement for an immunology education. I think overall the importance of herd immunity or whatever term we want to use is a hard one to convey to the herd itself but I think getting the silent majority to care abuot this is going to be key to making inroads on this issue. Too easy to just say “I don’t want to judge glad I vaccinate too bad for their kids but it is their right.”

  45. September 20, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    @JCJ – there is a difference between personal choice & public health….back in the day, it was routine for the authorities to isolate / quarantine infected or suspected-infected individuals (sometimes even throwing them in prison) to contain and control outbreaks of disease…..luckily, we have vaccines today, which make these kind of draconian policies unnecessary – but these diseases were considered bad enough in the past that these methods were accepted by the public.

    There is always going to be a trade-off…if you decide to make a choice that puts public health at risk, then you have to accept that you are going to face certain limitations – such as accepting that your unvaccinated child will be sent home for two to three weeks if there is an outbreak in their school or that they might be excluded some certain public areas – again, in the case of disease outbreak.

  46. Jetcityjewel
    September 20, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Agreed so much taken for granted and so much of the past forgotten or not understood.

  47. September 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    @JCJ – yes, just reading about what happened during the outbreak of the Spanish Flu makes my hair stand on end…..I can’t even imagine what that must have been like.

  48. Jetcityjewel
    September 20, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    The more posts we can have about why herd immunity is important and some history lessons to boot the better imo.

  49. Mikael
    September 20, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Lawrence,”There is always going to be a trade-off…if you decide to make a choice that puts public health at risk, then you have to accept that you are going to face certain limitations”

    But it is OK to put me at risk? This logic is so warped.

  50. September 20, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    @Mikael – please point to where I said you needed to be “put at risk?” I stated that you can make whatever decision you would like, but expect there will be push-back when it comes to public health policy….

  51. Chris
    September 20, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    And remember, Mikael, if your family does have a family immune dysfunction that does not allow them to be vaccinated, they will get even more harm from the disease. So you need to make sure that those family members who have a genetic health issue that prevents vaccination live where there is high community immunity, so you need to encourage others to vaccinated.

  52. Mikael
    September 20, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    You make it very clear Lawrence, if we decide not to put ourselves at risk by vaccinating then we are putting the public at risk and therefore should be the outcasts of society.

  53. Mikael
    September 20, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    Disagree Chris. Other non vaccinated cousins have had a few diseases and they get over them quicker than expected.

  54. September 20, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    @Mikael – I think your judgement is suspect – if one has an “immune disfunction” it should react worse when exposed to an actual disease, which involved many more antigens than would ever be exposed in a vaccine.

    As to your first point, yes – if you decide not to vaccinate, then you need to be aware of the consequences for public health. As a school administrator, it behoves that person to make a decision on admittance that weighs the rights of all of the students – which means that the unvaccinated students would be sent home and be required to stay there for a number of weeks, if there was an outbreak of disease.

    All decisions have consequences – why can’t you accept that?

  55. Mikael
    September 20, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    I can accept that, it’s too bad that you are the judgmental one!

    Judgment is not suspect, those are family facts. Nobody said anything about immune disfunction, try allergies to some of the crap in vaccines.

  56. September 20, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Like what, exactly? Formaldehyde, for instance? Oh yeah, there is more of that in your body as part of normal metabolic processes than is in all of the vaccines you would receive, combined…..

    I would recommend that you read:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Which addresses the issues of “toxins” – you are making quite a few unsubstantiated assumptions….you have to accept that public health policies are based on actual science and those that reject science have to accept that you will be held accountable if there is an outbreak & your kids have to be kept out of school.

  57. Chris
    September 20, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    Mikeal:

    Other non vaccinated cousins have had a few diseases and they get over them quicker than expected.

    I’m sorry but anecdotes are not data. As you can see from the above article, the incidence of measles outbreaks occurred mostly among the unvaccinated, and the under vaccinated. Plus this paper: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents.

    Now, please provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

  58. Chris
    September 20, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Mikael: “Nobody said anything about immune disfunction, try allergies to some of the crap in vaccines.”

    And you never said what the issue was, so I had to guess. You only mentioned one getting autism, but the data shows the MMR does not cause autism, and none of the Autism Omnibus court cases came to the conclusion that the MMR causes autism. So I took the most common reason for kids to not get the MMR vaccine, especially since even those with egg allergies can get it safely.

    So you still need to provide the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the MMR vaccine causes more injury than measles.

  59. Gray Falcon
    September 20, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    Another thing, Mikael. We can’t even be sure your recollection is correct. You might be remembering the one or two family members that are exceptional, but forgetting about the others. Without any records, we can’t be sure.

  60. dingo199
    September 21, 2013 at 3:19 am

    Just an anecdote of my own to toss into the ring….. A few years ago my hospital saw a young pregnant woman with a bad attack of measles.

    Apparently she had never had MMR, and had “always been very healthy”. I guess her parents might well have been the sort who went around boasting how her child didn’t need vaccines, and “would never get ill”.

    Well, it only took contact with a kid with measles to destroy that myth. You can run, but you can’t hide in the herd forever. I don’t know how her baby did after the episode – hope it wasn’t damaged in some way.

    Imagine if everyone in the world were vaccinated for measles?
    It would vanish from the planet, and then NOBODY would ever need vaccination, ever again. That’s what happened with smallpox, and what may happen with polio (except antivaccine religious leaders in some countries have sabotaged that goal)

  61. dingo199
    September 21, 2013 at 3:31 am

    Mikael :I can accept that, it’s too bad that you are the judgmental one!
    Judgment is not suspect, those are family facts. Nobody said anything about immune disfunction, try allergies to some of the crap in vaccines.

    “Allergies”? Which exactly? Only significant allergy to vaccines I know of that isn’t rare is egg allergy, but then that egg “crap” is merely the samenatural protein that the kids risk exposeure to naturally when eating foods naturally anyway.

    There are occasional episodes of immediate anaphylaxis to vaccine constituents but they are extremely rare.
    (In fact the commonest cause for vaccine anaphylaxis is the imported SINGLE measles vaccine – you know, the one that “antivax” people insist on pleading for, and that Wakefield said kids should have? PS the MMR recorded NO cases of anaphylaxis in 5.5 million doses)
    http://group.bmj.com/group/media/latest-news/Anaphylactic%20shock%20after%20vaccination%20201cextremely%20rare201d.pdf

  62. dingo199
    September 21, 2013 at 3:39 am

    Severe allergic reactions are not only extremely rare, but not fatal, and often a case of mistaken diagnosis….

    The incidence of anaphylactic or severe allergic reactions to vaccines is very low, less than one case per million vaccine doses. Larger studies from later years report no deaths. The cause of the reaction is usually not the immunizing antigen itself, but rather some other vaccine ingredient such as egg protein from the production process or gelatin added as a stabilizer. Most people with egg allergy can be vaccinated without any reaction. Vasovagal reactions with or without hyperventilation are common after vaccination. They can be rather dramatic and are often mistaken for anaphylactic reactions. Correct diagnosis is important in making it possible to vaccinate those who might otherwise run the risk of serious infections.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16476188

  63. Quokka
    September 22, 2013 at 7:34 am

    Mikael – you bragged that your children are healthier than other vaccinated children and that proves you were right not to vaccinate. That is very insensitive to people who are the victim of unvaccinated children causing disability. My SIL has a disability caused by an unvaccinated child spreading disease.

    I am seriously beginning to question your insight into the possible consequences of your actions.

  64. Mikael
    September 23, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Quokka, there was no bragging involved. I simply stated that my kids were very healthy growing up and that many of their vaccinated friends weren’t as lucky.

    BTW…it’s not just unvaccinated children that spread disease, to single them out as the cause of all of these outbreaks is ridiculous, and beside what about those that have medical reasons not to vaccinate? That is the reason we didn’t. Still evil huh?

    Why don’t you talk to my nephew’s family who was victim of a vaccine causing disability?? I question your insight to the possible consequences and injuries that vaccine’s can cause.

  65. September 23, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    Mikael, the plural of anecdote is not data. And I sincerely doubt you will publicly post the name and address of your nephew. Could you please provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that the risk from the MMR vaccine is greater than actually getting measles?

  66. Lawrence
    September 23, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    @Mikael – how about responding to dingo’s refutation of your so-called “facts?”

  67. Mikael
    September 23, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Chris and Lawrence, I have no reason to do so. My family and I know and understand why we don’t vaccinate, and what vaccines have done to relatives, it doesn’t matter if you do or not. I have no responsibility to report to you, and especially wouldn’t with the condescending attitude that Lawrence carries.

  68. Chris
    September 23, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    Your reasons are not very convincing. For all we know you are just making everything up. Perhaps you have some business that benefits when kids get sick, and allows you to sell something to desperate parents. Maybe you supply respiratory supplies to a local hospital, and business get better when kids need mechanical ventilation due to pneumonia caused by measles, or pertussis.

  69. Mikael
    September 23, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Whatever makes you feel better Chris.

  70. Chris
    September 23, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    Well, what makes me feel better if you actually posted real evidence to support your statements. You are just giving us vague random stories that make very little sense.

    For one thing, if the MMR vaccine caused autism, it would have been noticed between 1971 and 1990 in the USA. A country that is much much larger than the UK and had been using if for almost twice as long before Wakefield came on to the scene. The allergy bit is a bit of a dodge, since that is extremely rare and an egg allergy is not contraindicated for the MMR vaccine.

  71. dingo199
    September 23, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Mikael :
    BTW…it’s not just unvaccinated children that spread disease, to single them out as the cause of all of these outbreaks is ridiculous

    Well the evidence indicates they were the source of infection for all these outbreaks. And we can’t argue against the evidence, can we?

  72. novalox
    September 24, 2013 at 2:14 am

    @mikael

    Again, why should anyone believe you if you won’t post any actual evidence?

  73. dingo199
    September 24, 2013 at 3:54 am

    Mikael :Quokka, there was no bragging involved. I simply stated that my kids were very healthy growing up and that many of their vaccinated friends weren’t as lucky.

    So you admit “luck” was involved in your own family having avoided getting ill with infections. At least that is a start. But as I said before, this luck won’t necessarily last, when exposure to infections is just round the corner. Have you seen an adult with chickenpox pneumonitis in ITU? I have, many times (It’s my job) and it’s not pretty. Do you know what adult measles looks like? I hope you never find out.

    I just don’t get you, or your irrational view about vaccines. By rights, you should be extremely provaccine, encouraging everyone else to get their shots. That would help you with your freeloading attitude, and you and yours could better hide in the herd. But no, you speak out against vaccines, which just reduces uptake, lowers community immunity and makes your own unvaccinated tribe more likely to catch nasty diseases. Do you dislike your kids that much, that you’d deliberately make the world a riskier place for them?

  74. Mikael
    September 24, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Chris, I never mentioned the MMR vaccine?? I also never mentioned egg allergies. Try aluminum and other metals.

  75. Mikael
    September 24, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    dingo, “these outbreaks”?

    How about all outbreaks?

  76. Mikael
    September 24, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    novalox, doesn’t matter to me if you do or don’t.

  77. Mikael
    September 24, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    dingo, well, I just don’t get you. If you had family members that were injured by vaccines then maybe you would “get me”. You expect me to promote vaccines that injured my family?

  78. Chris
    September 24, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    Mikael, who cares if you never mentioned the MMR vaccine? Are you just giving us your opinions and little stories without every reading the above article? Which happens to be about recent measles outbreaks.

    ” You expect me to promote vaccines that injured my family?”

    Just to keep you on topic, please provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that shows the MMR vaccine causes more injury than measles. If you wish to continue to pontificate on your stories, then just go away.

  79. Gray Falcon
    September 25, 2013 at 12:34 am

    Mikael, you haven’t even shown that the vaccines were what hurt your family. “It happened right after we got the vaccine!” isn’t enough, that was what was used to prove cases of witchcraft.

  80. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:25 am

    @mikael

    So you admit you have been lying the entire time and have made your story up then?

  81. September 25, 2013 at 5:19 am

    @Mikael – the whole “walk a mile in my shoes” bit doesn’t work so well when you’re speaking to people who have had family members permanently injured by vaccine-preventable diseases….see, the difference between what you believe and what is real, is that we know that these diseases can be dangerous & do cause serious side-effects, at a rate which makes them extremely common (like the 1 in 4 hospitalizations that occurred with the most recent large measles outbreak in France) compared to the extremely rare instances where there is a serious vaccine reaction.

    If your stories held any water at all, researchers would be all over your family to determine what happened….since that isn’t the case, it does point to a certain lack of honesty on your part.

  82. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Chris, You are such a hypocrite, you were engaging in conversation with me and then you do a 180 and say I am not on topic?

    Do me a favor and reread the article, it talks about more than just the MMR vaccine and Measles. Also, please read the “about us” section on the site and tell me what the topics for discussion are.

    I’ll have to assume you have no response to my last comment, so you had to change the topic and make it about me not staying on topic. That of course came after you were already talking to me about the so called “off topic” subject matter.

  83. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    Gray Falcon, you have no idea of the facts. I guessed you missed the part about the allergies to aluminum and other metals in the vaccines? How do you think we know the kids were allergic to them?

  84. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    novalox, have no idea what you are talking about so I can’t respond to your question.

  85. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    Lawrence, so if you had two family members injured by vaccines, you know for sure that you would go around promoting vaccines?? Sorry, you can’t say that unless you had two family members injured by vaccines and you now promote them? I guess I can say, “walk in my shoes” can’t I?

  86. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Lawrence, “If your stories held any water at all, researchers would be all over your family to determine what happened….since that isn’t the case, it does point to a certain lack of honesty on your part.”

    Guess what, they know and they are not all over the family. No why? Because nobody cares.

  87. September 25, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    @Mikael – this martyr complex of yours got old a long time ago. I have serious doubts regarding your credibility, given that your are unable to respond to dingo’s production of child mortality information which directly contradicts your own “story.”

    Given the likelihood that any family would have two individuals (much less even a single individual) suffer a “severe vaccine reaction” is vanishingly small – you are either lying (probably) or even in the best case, probably confusing correlation with causation.

    Aluminum is one of the most common elements in the Earth’s crust & you would receive a dose much, much higher of actual aluminum (not an aluminum salt) just by scraping your knee or ingesting food on a daily basis.

    You can peddle your “stories” all you want – but you lack any evidence whatsoever (no Science at all) to show what you describe as even being possible.

    Again, we have seen individuals who did actually suffer from side-effects from VPDs – but when we look at the individuals who claim reactions from vaccines (the really severe kind) – the evidence presented doesn’t even begin to hold water.

    Sorry that you feel that I am “mean” but public health policy is based on evidence and Science, not fiction.

  88. September 25, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    @Mikael – if you are so sure your family suffered from vaccines, why haven’t you filed a lawsuit?

  89. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    You have no idea what you are talking about Lawrence. I suggest you lose your God Complex and then maybe you can learn some things.

    People can be allergic to aluminum and other metals. That’s why people in my family have to be careful with dental materials as well.

    Have a great life Lawrence believing that you know it all.

  90. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    Lawrence, it’s cousins in the family and I don’t know all of the details. Am I so sure? Ahhhh, yes I am sure that it happened. Why would I file I law suit?? Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work, or maybe you just don’t care, because you already know everything in your own mind.

  91. September 25, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    @Mikael – you continue to destroy your credibility with every single post….okay then, why wasn’t a lawsuit filed in your “cousins'” case?

    Again, I’m just happy that public health policies are set according to Science and Evidence & not by fictionized accounts.

  92. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Really Lawrence? My story hasn’t changed at all. And who said a law suit was or wasn’t filed? There’s the reading comprehension again.

  93. September 25, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    @Mikael – then answer the question….was a lawsuit filed?

  94. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @mikael

    Again, why should we beleive a proven liar like you, since you have not posted any actual evidence?

  95. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Lawrence, I am not privy to that information. It’s my understanding that there is a negotiation going on in some secret court of some sort.

  96. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    novalox, proven liar? Really? Prove I am a proven liar. Do you have any mental issues or do you always make things up? Or is it just your reality?

  97. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    @mikael

    Simple, why haven’t you posted anything to support your views? Your constant refusal says volumes about you and telling the truth.

    But at least you are resorting to childish insults. So please, keep trying to insult me, I apprecate that you cannot actually post anything truthful, and I do apprecate that I am getting on the nerves of a troll.

  98. September 25, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @Mikael – “secret court?” Really? Wow, you are down the rabbit hole, aren’t you?

  99. dingo199
    September 25, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Mikael, the credibility of story seems to be unraveling with every comment you post.
    Perhaps you could actually look up some sciency stuff and evidence about metals in vaccines and allergic reactions?
    http://sanevax.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/vaccine-hypersensitivity121.pdf
    http://www.uptodate.com/contents/allergic-reactions-to-vaccines#H1
    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516045_2
    http://www.aaaai.org/Aaaai/media/MediaLibrary/PDF%20Documents/Practice%20and%20Parameters/Advers-reactions-to-vaccines-2012.pdf

    If nothing else, reading them will give you a more accurate narrative to spin the next time you wish to concoct a tale.

  100. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Lawrence, I don’t know what it is, I know it is a regular old court – OK.

  101. September 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    @Mikael – except you started with “secret court” which certainly doesn’t do much for your credibility – though dingo did a real number of you when he showed that your assertions about child mortality made no sense at all…..you seem to have a real problem with reality.

    Thank goodness we make public health decisions based on solid evidence, not fiction.

  102. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    novalox, you didn’t prove that I am a “proven liar” isn’t that against the rule here?

    Oh and I’m a troll now too? I think you are the funny one!

  103. September 25, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @Mikael – I would probably stop digging…that hole you’re in is deep enough already.

  104. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    Lawrence, you can ridicule it if you want to, the fact is it isn’t regular court as we know it. Call it whatever you want. I called it secret because I don’t know what it is and it is on the very low key side.
    Dingo didn’t do any number on me. Nobody can, because I have only told the truth about my family. So what is there to do a number about?

    Your public health officials know about the cousins, and you think they are going to make decisions based on that information? Try again, they don’t care.

  105. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    @mikael

    Again, thanks for admitting that you are a liar and that you have made everything up, as evidence by your constant refusal to answer questions asked of you.

    Your lies are showing again. Next time you try to make up a story, at least keep your facts straight. But at least you are entertaining, since you again have to resort to insults instead of posting actual evidence.

    And pelase, try to step up your insults. Petty childish ones like you have attempted to post really just make me laugh at the ignorance that you attempt to try.

  106. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    @mikael

    And again, thanks for admitting that Lawrence is right and you are wrong.

  107. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Lawrence, you are the one blinded by your own arrogance. You are flat out wrong if you believe anything other then what I have told you about my family. Keep on denying it, but it doesn’t change the facts or the truth. It’s pathetic and shows your character to deny something you know nothing about.

  108. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    novalox, thanks for showing your true colors, again.

  109. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    novalox, I suggest you seek out a mental health professional for your own good.

  110. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    @mikael

    Yawn, another attempted insult, try again, troll.

    And at least you admit again that I am right and you have been lying to us the entire time.

    But please try again. I am getting to enjoy messing with a troll like you.

  111. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    @mikael

    Also, attempting to try to denigrate mental health issues by assigning your issues to me is a sure sign you have nothing truthful to offer.

  112. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    novalox,

    Fact: I never admitted anywhere that you were right.
    Fact: you keep insisting that I did.

    You are having delusions and mixing reality with fantasy. Please, seek some help for your own good.

  113. novalox
    September 25, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    @mikael

    Again, thanks for admitting that you are a liar and are wrong, since you have admitted by your actions and refusal to post evidence and answer questions that you are a liar.

    From that, we can all assume that everthing that you have posted and will continue to post is a lie.

    So again, thank you for you admission that you are wrong.

    And again, please don’t denigrate mental health issues and don’t assign your issues with the truth to others.

    But at least you are entertaining to mess with, since you cannot answer any of Lawrence’s, Chris’, or dingo’s questions forthright or with any truth. At least you get to entertain me with your pathetic attempts at insult.

    So please, keep posting. I do apprecate the laughs at your expense.

  114. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    novalox, I will not be responding to you again as you can not be reasoned with.

  115. Lawrence
    September 25, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    @Mikael – surprise, surprise….I was just about to say the same thing about you.

  116. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    Is that right Lawrence? You have not provided one piece of evidence that what I have said is not true. So what did you want to “reason” about? You’ve got nothing but your own bad attitude with anyway who claims that vaccines injure. That’s on you.

  117. September 25, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    @Mikael – sorry, I don’t respond to baseless assertions…believe whatever you wish, because that still doesn’t make it true (and let us know how that whole “secret court” thing works out).

    Luckily for the rest of us, public health policy is set by actual Science and Evidence-backed data.

    Again, sorry you find reality to be so “mean.”

  118. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    Lawrence, I have not made any baseless assertions and I already explained the “secret court thing and yet you keep saying it. Either your reading comprehension is much worse then I thought or you purposely keep stating it to try and discredit me. Not very honest now is it?

    I don’t find any reality “mean” not sure why you keep saying that? You seem to be the one who chooses to ignore reality, as in vaccine injuries. You deny they exist which really isn’t reality Lawrence, just an fyi, they do.

  119. September 25, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    @Mikael – my, you have gotten defensive now, haven’t you?

    Back to the topic at hand, we are going to continue to see outbreaks in vulnerable populations, as long as persons with low or no vaccination history continue to congregate in small, vulnerable groups….it is my hope that these communities wise up and vaccinate appropriately, so that they don’t cause any more harm.

  120. Mikael
    September 25, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Not defensive about it Lawrence, just pointing out your dishonesty with regards to your comments.

  121. September 25, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    And in Europe, where herd immunity has broken down in larger segments of the population, we’re seeing much more widespread outbreaks & the diseases becoming more edemic in the population at large – it will take years of steady vaccine uptake across the population to get diseases back under control….luckily, in the UK, the recent measles outbreak has gotten the populace at large to vaccinate – which hopefully should reduce the likelihood of future large outbreaks.

  122. novalox
    September 26, 2013 at 2:02 am

    @mikael

    Please keep regaling us with your dishonesty. I do admit I have relished making you look like the dishonest troll that you are and that your story doesn’t check out.

    And again, thanks for admitting that the regulars, including Lawrence and I, have been telling the truth the entire time and that you have been lying as usual.

    I look forward to more of your pathetic insults and baseless claims, since I know you cannot come up even with the simplest evidence.

  123. Robert
    October 13, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    ‘Dishonesty” novalax? You who push vaccines own that word.

  124. novalox
    October 14, 2013 at 2:30 am

    @robert

    Ahh, another troll to play with. You cannot produce a coherent argument, so you have to resort to a childish insult. Sad, but yet predictable.

    So please, present some evidence, otherwise, we can assume that you are just another troll and liar.

    At least try to post something coherent, you can provide some lulz for the regulars here.

  125. lisa king
    October 18, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Wow. I have to say this was very entertaining albeit frustrating. Anecdote to anecdote Makael (if you are still around). My son, who was born premature and weighed in at 3lbs, is allergic to what seems like nearly everything under the sun. He has a very severe egg allergy. He is also allergic to nuts, milk, soy, wheat, chicken, turkey, mold, grass, some trees, and metals. To say he is difficult to feed is an understatement. But, he has had every vaccine that is available and right on schedule. For his MMR, our allergist administered the vaccine along with a shot of Benedryl. He gave it in quarter doses every 2 hours. It took all day. My son is now a very healthy 10 year old who has never been sick – really, never. He has never missed a day of school. And, I didn’t even breastfeed! On the other hand, as I am an old mom (56) I have strong memories of pre-vaccine days. I remember having german measles, the mumps, and chicken pox. I remember my mom holding me in a tub full of ice to bring down my extremely high fever. I remember the panic on her face. My next-door neighbor (aged 12 at the time) got polio when the river behind our homes flooded and the sewers backed up. He spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair with an iron lung. At that time (1960) there were many kids in that situation. Now, there are none. My cousin was rendered blind and severely retarded from complications from the measles. He was home for awhile but then was institutionalized for the rest of his life. I am sorry that your cousin has autism but science has proven autism is not caused by vaccines. You have not mentioned what your other cousin’s vaccine injury was or which vaccine might have caused it so readers on this thread are skeptical. I would be interested in hearing more detailed information. And, as far as allergies go, science shows that severe allergic reactions are rare and never fatal. Dingo 199 points to several pubmeds regarding this topic so I won’t repeat but having allergies is really not a sound reason to avoid vaccinating.

  126. No crapshots for me either
    December 11, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    Mikael is absolutely right and those of you picking on him for not jamming your faulty meds into his kids are really screwed up. You have taken the vaccine lies hook, line and sinker. You have allowed yourselves to be fear mongered into being lab rats for pharma.

    What a pity so many of you arrogant people are so querulously demanding that OTHER people follow your lame lead in poisoing kids because it is the ‘popular’ thing to do.

    Millions of people have raised perfectly healthy children WITHOUT this snake oil.

    Wake up before what is left of your brains are completely fried.

  127. reissd
    December 11, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    I am sorry you feel that way, NCFME. From my point of view, given the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are safe and effective, it’s crucial to speak up for the children whose parents choose to leave unprotected and try and point out the risks to those parents. After all, the children do not have a choice here. And yes, many of them – living in a first world country where there are high rates of vaccination to protect them – will be lucky and not suffer. But they are still left at higher risk.

  128. December 11, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    “You have taken the vaccine lies hook, line and sinker.”

    What lies do you believe we’ve taken ‘hook, line and sinker’, exactly? Be specific, and provide credible evidence what you beleive to be lies actually are lies. (I’ll note that to date Mikael has offered no evidence whatsoever in support of his claims.)

  129. December 11, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    NCSFME: As a pediatric infectious disease doc I have personally seen children maimed and dead in the United States–in a major metropolitan area–from vaccine preventable diseases. How did they get sick? Either their parent, like you, did not vaccinate them or they were too young to get a vaccine but were exposed to the child of someone like you who had whooping cough or Hib or measles and got them sick. Those children I have cared for are now dead or deaf or debilitated for life. And that is on _you_ and your ilk–those who purposefully do not vaccinate. Maybe your children are fine. I’m glad. Maybe ther children are fine with no shots. They are lucky. But by not vaccinating ,you and others who choose not to are willingly risking your children’s lives and moreover the lives of other people’s children. That you have no guilt or shame about this is horrifying. Grow up and take some responsibility for your actions and stop killing and maiming other people’s children with your willful ignorance.

  130. BzWrkinMom
  131. Lawrence
    January 5, 2014 at 3:25 pm

    @BZ – I don’t take medical advice from a Paleolithic Geologist, who also happens to be a apologist for child killers…..

  132. Lawrence
    January 5, 2014 at 3:33 pm

    As to the benefits of contracting measles – it also includes:

    A chance of pediatric blindess & deafness, a 1 in 1000 chance of getting encephalitis and a 1 in 10,000 chance of death. Not to mention that approximately 25% of persons contracting the illness will require hospitalization (as has been evidenced by the most recent outbreaks in France and England).

    Sounds real benign to me…..measles also has no treatment – one you get it, you get it & you take your chances and roll the dice to see what particular side-effect you will get.

    Dr. Scheibner is a complete lunatic.

  133. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 11:48 am

    “you should not expect that Public Health Policy is going to be guided by anything other than valid medical evidence & sound science”.

    Please tell me that was supposed to be a joke?? Right?
    As for the Ped Doc, which is easier to treat, chicken pox, measles or neural dysfunction? Sure, kids that are not vaccinated have a higher chance of getting a childhood disease, but to BLAME these kids for spreading the disease more than anyone who is vaccinated absolutely shows your complete lack of understanding. Kids that are vaccinated contract and transmit the disease just as easy ARGUABLY MORE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO SYMPTOMS!!! So take plenty of blame yourselves for “killing helpless babies” that are too young for the vaccination. And to be completely correct, from a immunologist, the reason babies are dying from this is because their mothers are not passing along passive natural immunity(Ig) from placenta and milk, because they never contracted the disease and the vaccination does not create a sufficient response to allow that to happen. The truth of the matter is that we will ALWAYS have outbreaks, because of x,y,z etc. Save the world some other way because you are bashing your head against the wall.

  134. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 11:52 am

    Lawrence :
    @BZ – I don’t take medical advice from a Paleolithic Geologist, who also happens to be a apologist for child killers…..

    What are your credentials??
    I always love it when someone asks a tough question or makes a interesting statement and the best thing a “so-called” expert can say is.. “Who are you to ask that or to make that point?”
    Implying that they have no right to ask this question. “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?”
    Comical. So tell us, what are your creds, where were you trained?

  135. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Mikael – then answer the question….was a lawsuit filed?

    Maybe you don’t understand that there has been legislation passed that does not allow you to sue a vaccine manufacturer. Ever read that? It’s absolutely true. Try to educate yourself a little bit more on why some physicians and immunologists have spoken out about some issues with vaccines. Yes, you are right, vaccines don’t kill children right after they are administered(so therefore no problem, in your mind) They have great intentions to decrease diseases and for the most part they do a pretty good job of that. BUT, try playing “devils advocate” for a while and actually LISTEN and process what is being said and what the implications of trying to artificially simulate immunity with large proteins, adjuvants, heavy metals etc. Do you actually understand how allergic reactions happen and why? Snap out of the dream that if your 7yr old gets chicken pox or measles they are going to die!! They are not going to. Encephalitis occurs about the same rate in vaccine injury as it does in measles complication. Either do the research yourself or just trust that the CDC would never make a mistake or recommend anything that they might not understand all the implications of today.

  136. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    @DRDAD – there is so much wrong with every single one of your statements, I almost don’t know where to start, but here are some good sources:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/
    http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

    And you obviously don’t know what the actual legislation says – because manufacturers can still be sued for product defects….and honestly, the Vaccine Court is a much better system and a non-adversarial way for legitimate vaccine injuries to be compensated.

  137. March 28, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    DRDAD, please tell us _your_ creds and where you trained. Regarding your claim that “Kids that are vaccinated contract and transmit the disease just as easily”, that is false. The whole point of vaccination is that those who are vaccinated do not in fact contract measles at the same rate. This is why, if you look at a graph, measles rates have plummeted since vaccination began–a vaccinated individual does not act as a reservoir for viral replication or transmission nor do they carry transmissible virus. If you have data to the contrary, please produce it, I’d love to see it.

    Similarly, your claim regarding transmission of passive immunity through immunoglobulin transfer from mother to baby not occurring in the setting of vaccination is likewise false. Women who have antibody to measles (or rubella or mumps or whooping cough or any other vaccine-preventable disease) due to vaccination pass on that antibody to their babies. Studies have looked and found antibody in those infants. Yes, it happens with natural immunity due to having the disease but it does absolutely happen with vaccine-mediated immunity.

  138. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    @Saul – given that the vast majority of vaccines use killed or bits & pieces of virus (not a whole virus) it is impossible that a person would either contract the disease or have replication occur to an extent that they would be able to pass it along to anyone else.

    Such lack of basic biological knowledge tells me that you couldn’t find your behind with both hands, much less understand the science behind vaccines and why they work.

  139. March 28, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    ummm…that’s what I said…I am pro-vaccine, Lawrence, and was quoting and then pointing out the fallacy in what DRDAD said… I was arguing against DRDAD, not defending him.

  140. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 3:37 pm

    DRDAD :
    Encephalitis occurs about the same rate in vaccine injury as it does in measles complication. Either do the research yourself or just trust that the CDC would never make a mistake or recommend anything that they might not understand all the implications of today.

    Postinfectious ADEM: 1/1000
    Postvaccination ADEM: 1–2/1,000,000

    Perhaps you don’t have that “do the research yourself” routine quite sorted out yet.

  141. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 4:06 pm

    @Saul – sorry, I wasn’t meaning to address you in any negative way….I was merely adding amplification to what you had already stated. Sorry that I did not make myself clear – I do apologize if you misconstrued what I said.

  142. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Lawrence, great studies, I love when you cut and paste from reputable sources that only publish studies that show exactly what we want to hear. I also have read a few of those. My favorite is the 7-10 days post vaccination study. Why wait 7 days?? If a febrile seizure is going to happen, it happens quickly Right? That study DISREGARDS any reaction for an entire week. Why?

  143. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 4:47 pm

    Saul- You’re suggesting that artificial immunity does not “wane”? Seriously, I thought you said you were a doctor? Basically EVERY immunologist would disagree with you, But you are probably right, I believe YOU. Passing of Immunoglobulins at rate well enough to consider a babies protection happens in ~20% of vaccinated mothers (in indiv. w/high reaction to vaccine and booster) Point 2- Because you are vaccinated against something does not mean that you become ASEPTIC. Your body and your artificial immunity still “process” the disease, yes maybe you are 2-3 days less contagious, but is that a big deal when you are still coughing into your shirt at the lunch table at school? In fact the recent whooping cough epidemics would prove exactly the opposite. Sorry, but I do appreciate you telling me how wrong I am.

  144. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    @DRDAD – you might actually want to read the study before you comment, since the overall period of time was not 7 – 10 days, but over 6 weeks.

    And to the differences between vaccine-derived immunity vs. natural infection – we have no evidence that the MMR vaccine (now primarily the MMRV) doesn’t give life-long immunity.

    Pertussis, on the other hand, is a different animal all-together and it is recognized that neither the infection itself or the vaccine gives life-long immunity. So what is your point?

  145. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    @DRDAD – your grasp of vaccine science is about at the level of a 1st Grader trying to understand Calculus…I would suggest you do a bit more reading before commenting, because your ignorance is showing.

  146. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 5:00 pm

    Narad BTW here is a study that might be more realistic than a 1-2/1000000. http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(07)00185-0/abstract

  147. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 5:51 pm

    “And to the differences between vaccine-derived immunity vs. natural infection – we have no evidence that the MMR vaccine (now primarily the MMRV) doesn’t give life-long immunity.”

    Are you suggesting that ALL these vaccinated indiv that contract mmrv are vaccine failures?? Whoa, call the CDC!
    Regarding pertusis, My point is, the vaccine doesn’t work very well and now the research is saying that natural immunity doesnt work all that well either. What’s my point? Why are we pushing vaccinating for it then?? It’s a failure. Let’s move on.
    Sorry I’m not as smart as you when it comes to researching this whole thing, I get it you are a genius and I’m a first grader. I used to be pro-vaccine all the way and still encourage people to vaccinate their children everyday. They provide some benefit. Just not enough for me. I demand excellence in my life and practice.

  148. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 6:05 pm

    @DRDAD – when you say all, you do realize we are talking about an extremely small number of even those that get infected (given that all outbreaks today have been traced to unvaccinated individuals, I’d say they are the problem).

    The MMRV, when given in three doses, has a 95 – 98% effectiveness rate – not 100% (since nothing is 100%) but certainly much, much, much better than the alternative, which is to see about 100% of people get infected, which is what happened historically – with all of the associated problems – including blindness, sterility, SSPE, etc.

    If anti-vax people hadn’t gone crazy over some associated reports of problems with DTP, we’d still be using that much more effective whole-cell vaccine, instead of the DTaP – is it perfect, nope, but certainly better than letting kids get Pertussis….aren’t you at all concerned about the number of babies that have died of Pertussis over the last several years?

    Demanding excellence (which is what we are trying to do by eliminating disease with vaccines) is different than what you are demanding – which seems to be guaranteeing that as many people get infected as possible.

  149. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    Here is an example of Chicken pox vaccine. DYK. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) study in 2002 reported that “the effectiveness of the vaccine was 44 percent against disease of any severity. AND DYK Between March 1995 and July 1998, the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) (WHICH HAS A EXTREMELY LOW REPORTING INCIDENCE BY ANY DR YOU ASK) received 6, 574 reports of health problems after chickenpox vaccination. That translates into 67.5 adverse events per 100,000 doses of vaccine or one in 1,481 vaccinations. About four percent of cases (about 1 in 33,000 doses) were serious including shock, encephalitis, thrombocytopenia (blood disorder) and 14 deaths.

  150. Lawrence
    March 28, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    Well, if you ask “any” doctor, they will tell you that VAERS over-reports serious reactions, mostly because anti-vax attorneys troll it looking for clients. The vast majority of vaccine reactions are mild and of short duration, which aren’t going to be reported.

    What kind of doctor are you? Let me guess, a chiro?

  151. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 7:02 pm

    I do understand that it is a very small number. And I’m not crazy(enough) to argue that vaccinated kids get sick more often. I agree vaccines give you a less chance of acquiring a disease, my only point is that it’s not that big of a difference. ~10-15% in most studies. Take a look at this German study in 2011, I admit the numbers of unvaxed kids who contract disease the percentage is HIGHER! (what we would expect) But its not THAT much higher. To me not worth the risk when we are talking childhood diseases. It is another story when we are talking polio, a 10% better chance is WORTH the risk.
    But lets back up a bit also, you are inferring that these individuals who were vaccinated who did not get sick as a vaccine success. I disagree. We need to look at exposure rates, that tells a better story. IMO

  152. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 7:15 pm

    Thats exactly the point. Physicians say “well its just a fever, no need to report it..etc.” So thanks for making my point.
    Yep, let’s get into the “pecking order” of how smart we are. I’m a PA-C, family of an MD, Pharm D, brothers are endo-DMD and a DC(that’s what they are called) All of whom are “sufficiently smart”. Is that good enough?? Are you a PhD in Immunology? If so, I still don’t care, we can still question the science ok? Funny how science minded people always get pissed about questioning the science. Maybe they forgot the steps of scientific method. What are you? Let me guess, GP? I mean gp, or better yet, 1st year med student.

  153. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 7:18 pm

    Sorry forgot to post the 2011 German Study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

  154. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    DRDAD :
    Narad BTW here is a study that might be more realistic than a 1-2/1000000.

    You mean aside from the part where it has nothing to do with ADEM and doesn’t look at a representative population anyway? Oh, I see.

  155. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 7:24 pm

    Heh. I should have also noted that by definition it doesn’t consider measles, either (the actual vaccines were DTaP and Hib). Spectacular, well done.

  156. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 7:33 pm

    Narad :
    Heh. I should have also noted that by definition it doesn’t consider measles, either (the actual vaccines were DTaP and Hib). Spectacular, well done.

    Ah, I should have read further than the introduction: IPV (no effect), Hep B (no effect), and PCV7 (1 case of 26 resulting in initiation/modification of ventilation) were also present.

  157. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 7:59 pm

    yep, NBD I guess. 85% have an abnormally high crp. with associated health issues. NBD. I guess I’ll stop arguing any point because it is useless.

  158. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 8:22 pm

    DRDAD :
    yep, NBD I guess. 85% have an abnormally high crp. with associated health issues. NBD.

    “Yep” what? NBD? In neonates? Did you even read the paper that you tossed out?

    I guess I’ll stop arguing any point because it is useless.

    Particularly if your response to being dead wrong is to incoherently change the subject. Let me remind you:

    Encephalitis occurs about the same rate in vaccine injury as it does in measles complication.

  159. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 8:39 pm

    DRDAD :
    But lets back up a bit also, you are inferring that these individuals who were vaccinated who did not get sick as a vaccine success. I disagree. We need to look at exposure rates, that tells a better story. IMO

    You mean the exposure rates that decline over time with vaccination? There’s a reason that one counts morbidity. However, with measles being so rare, it is the case that possible contacts are tracked down at great public expense. Here’s what happened for a single importation.

    “In February 2004, a group of ∼28 college students from a community in Iowa with a high proportion of nonmedical exemptions to vaccination traveled together to India, where ∼44000 cases of measles were reported in 2003, although the true number is certainly much higher. All 6 students without receipt of at least 1 dose of measles vaccination contracted measles in India. The Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH) recommended that students with measles stay in India during their infectious period to avoid potential spread during prolonged airline flights. Nonimmune contacts were asked to stay until the end of their potential incubation period. Despite the IDPH recommendations, 1 exposed unvaccinated student returned to Iowa earlier than requested. During his travel, involving connections in 2 busy airports, he developed a cough and conjunctivitis. Shortly after arrival in Iowa, he developed a rash and saw a physician who reported the case to the IDPH, and measles was subsequently laboratory-confirmed.”

  160. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 9:09 pm

    Exposure rates do decrease over time yes, I agree. This study suggests that 100% of people vaccinated for measles don’t get it and 100% of people who are not vaccinated get it if exposed. I think this one is probably more accurate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/
    “An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent. Nineteen (70 per cent) of the cases were students who had histories of measles vaccination at 12 months of age or older and are therefore considered vaccine failures. Persons who were unimmunized or immunized at less than 12 months of age had substantially higher attack rates compared to those immunized on or after 12 months of age. Vaccine failures among apparently adequately vaccinated individuals were sources of infection for at least 48 per cent of the cases in the outbreak”

  161. DRDAD
    March 28, 2014 at 9:20 pm

    I do agree. If you don’t vaccinate for measles AND you are exposed to measles you will GET measles(95-98% chance). But the research would show that only about 15% of unvaccinated kids will contract measles and about 5% of fully vaccinated kids will also. I’ll take my chances with measles and life-long immunity rather than a failing vaccine. The complications of measles are much much less than what the stnats would appear. This considers world-wide and also religious non-meidcal interventionists. I am not one of those. I actually have complete faith that modern medicine will decrease the mortality risk to an almost zero chance. 0.001%

  162. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 9:44 pm

    DRDAD :
    But the research would show that only about 15% of unvaccinated kids will contract measles and about 5% of fully vaccinated kids will also.

    In an outbreak? No, the unvaccinated:vaccinated ratio of attack rates is higher than 3.

    I’ll take my chances with measles and life-long immunity rather than a failing vaccine.

    You don’t know that disease-based immunity is “lifelong,” now do you? Why shouldn’t it identically “fail” in the absence of “natural boosters” in the form of endemic disease? I’m not going to bother doing your homework for you this time.

  163. Narad
    March 28, 2014 at 9:50 pm

    I will give you proof of concept, though: One of the cases in the current New York outbreak was aged 63.

  164. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    I would LOVE to see a study of naturally acquired measles immunity LESS than 90%(I don’t think it exists.) Saying that someone is 63 who contracted measles doesn’t mean much to me.
    And the research has shown that adults (post-chkn px natural inf.) unless periodically exposed to kids with chkn pox infection are at a much higher risk of shingles. Possibly this is another unintended consequence of vaccines.

  165. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 5:25 pm

    The research is MUCH stronger supporting life-long immunity in naturally acquired diseases.

  166. novalox
    March 31, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    @drdad

    [citation needed] for your comments.

  167. Narad
    March 31, 2014 at 6:58 pm

    DRDAD :
    And the research has shown that adults (post-chkn px natural inf.) unless periodically exposed to kids with chkn pox infection are at a much higher risk of shingles. Possibly this is another unintended consequence of vaccines.

    So, rather than getting an HZ vaccine for yourself, you’d prefer that others suffer and shoulder the much higher risk from disease for your convenience?

  168. Lawrence
    March 31, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    @DRDAD – care to explain how domestic (i.e. US) measles was finally eliminated?

    Every single case today can be traced to transmission from overseas….perhaps the vaccine program here was more successful than you care to admit, hmmmm?

  169. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 7:02 pm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12057605
    Do I really have to give an explanation for life-long immunity in natural acquired immunity?
    I can beat you to the recent study that shows how naturally acquired pertussis immunity is decreasing, but that still is 20 years rather than 4-12 with the vaccine. And pertussis also has differing strains which makes it difficult to be immune to it. That still doesn’t change the fact that the vaccine is almost worthless. Very highly vaccinated pops are getting and spreading the disease. Not that you would believe them but there are some studies show a higher prevalence in the vaccinated population. Believe it?

  170. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 7:22 pm

    Narad :

    DRDAD :
    And the research has shown that adults (post-chkn px natural inf.) unless periodically exposed to kids with chkn pox infection are at a much higher risk of shingles. Possibly this is another unintended consequence of vaccines.

    So, rather than getting an HZ vaccine for yourself, you’d prefer that others suffer and shoulder the much higher risk from disease for your convenience?

    Maybe you don’t understand the study. What it is saying is that adults who have had chicken pox, when exposed to children who have chicken pox, the wild virus acts as a booster as to prevent that adult from getting shingles. This will continually be a problem because fewer kids are getting chicken pox at a young age thus making adults more prone to shingles. Nope, my kids both had chicken pox so I should be good for a while. If any adult that has had chicken pox isn’t around kids with the disease, you better get your booster about every 5 years to avoid the painful shingles. UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE. More vaccinations will require more vaccinations etc.

  171. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 7:24 pm

    How is it my fault? It’s my fault that people got the vaccine and then didn’t get a booster every few years?? I love the blaming logic. Others should get the vaccine booster, once you get on that vaccine train, you better be prepared to ride it ALL the way.

  172. Chris
    March 31, 2014 at 7:34 pm

    “UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE. More vaccinations will require more vaccinations etc.”

    So you would rather children get chicken pox and suffer with dozens of itchy open wounds (pox) for almost two weeks to save yourself a trip to the pharmacy? Then let them become susceptible for shingles at an older age. Nice.

    Do you also skip your ten year tetanus/diphtheria shots?

    And what does chicken pox have to do with measles? No matter how many varicella vaccines you get you will not prevent measles.

  173. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 7:48 pm

    EVERY CASE!?!?!- Let’s see the studies (Since 1997, the reported annual incidence has been <1 case/1 million population. The """majority""" of cases are international importations or the result of limited domestic spread following imported cases. All other cases in recent years are believed to be due to """unidentified""" importations. Another- and 200 """(90%)"" were associated with importations from other countries, ONLY- (11%) linked to cases with ""virologic evidence"" of recent importation. I do not disagree that measles has drastically decreased and would agree that some of that is due to the vaccine. The point is this push for eradication that "everyone needs to get vaccinated" and unvaxed are spreading the disease is just complete non-sense and I'm kinda tired of it. Diseases are ubiquitous. Vaccines pose a risk, diseases pose a risk, vaccines are beginning to show less and less effectiveness. Educated people are asking logical questions. Other educated people who believe vaccines are great for the immune system call them stupid. It's awesome!

  174. Chris
    March 31, 2014 at 7:56 pm

    “Let’s see the studies (Since 1997, the reported annual incidence has been <1 case/1 million population."

    We can't see them unless you provide the citations. You know something like this:

    N Engl J Med. 2006 Aug 3;355(5):447-55.
    Implications of a 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana for sustained elimination of measles in the United States

    J Travel Med. 2008 Mar-Apr;15(2):82-6. doi: 10.1111/j.1708-8305.2008.00183.x.
    Measles exportation from Japan to the United States, 1994 to 2006.

    Plus the surveillance data:
    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/outbreaks.html

    "I do not disagree that measles has drastically decreased and would agree that some of that is due to the vaccine."

    Then will you explain what else caused the rate of measles incidence in the USA to drop 90% between 1960 and 1970? Provide citations, do not mention any other decade, nor any other country. Here is the census data:

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  175. Lawrence
    March 31, 2014 at 7:58 pm

    @DRDAD – this is where you prove that you do indeed live in fantasyland.

    Measles was declared “eradicated” in the US. That is a fact – you know, we have these great genetic tests nowadays, so it is easy to tell where these diseases have been imported from.

    If diseases were so “ubiquitous” how have we been able to eradicate Smallpox & Rinderpest – not to mention drive Polio to almost the brink of extinction….not to mention reduce all other incidence of VPDs between 95 – 99.9% in the United States.

    You are in fact a complete loony & definitely fly in the face of decades of medical science (not to mention reality).

    Chris has already provided the chart that shows the drastic decrease in measles incidence only occurred after the common use of the Measles Vaccine….so please, stop lying and learn to face the truth. Your positions are unsupported by any evidence.

  176. Lawrence
    March 31, 2014 at 7:59 pm

    Oh, and as a reminder – Measles only has humans as a host, so we could eradicate too – if you anti-vax people would just get out of the way…..then we could stop vaccinating, which I thought was your goal too?

  177. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    Chris :
    “UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE. More vaccinations will require more vaccinations etc.”
    So you would rather children get chicken pox and suffer with dozens of itchy open wounds (pox) for almost two weeks to save yourself a trip to the pharmacy? Then let them become susceptible for shingles at an older age. Nice.
    Do you also skip your ten year tetanus/diphtheria shots?
    And what does chicken pox have to do with measles? No matter how many varicella vaccines you get you will not prevent measles.

    Yes I would rather my kids get chicken pox. And they have had it. 2weeks?? What planet do you live on? 3-4 days. Get real, apparently you are a victim of the scare tactic as well. And both of my kids got it from vaccinated kids (1 being my niece) I didn’t blame anyone for them getting it, like everyone who is vaccinated does. And yes they had it BAD!! But it’s not that big of a deal. More people will be getting shingles in the very hear future (predicted by the cdc) “Let them become more likely to get shingles at an older age?” ?? Not sure you understand what happens. I promise you chicken pox as a child is not as bad as chicken pox/shingles as an adult. Are you under the impression that only people that have had VZ as a child get shingles? I guess I understand that you might be right in the fact that when you get chicken pox at 35 you could say “hey at least it’s not shingles.” Not sure how it went to chickn pox. oh some one questioned life-long immunity.

  178. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 8:33 pm

    Eradicated and yet not eradicated all at once! The excerpt was from the CDC itself and verified that only 11% are virologically evidence of importation
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6115a1.htm, so are you lying?? Care to explain what type of polio is the most common these days?? As far as why such low numbers of measles? I already conceded that the vaccine has some (maybe most) of the credit for that. The issue is to think that it can and will be eradicated and to blame the small population for outbreaks is LOONY.

    Lawrence :
    @DRDAD – this is where you prove that you do indeed live in fantasyland.
    Measles was declared “eradicated” in the US. That is a fact – you know, we have these great genetic tests nowadays, so it is easy to tell where these diseases have been imported from.
    If diseases were so “ubiquitous” how have we been able to eradicate Smallpox & Rinderpest – not to mention drive Polio to almost the brink of extinction….not to mention reduce all other incidence of VPDs between 95 – 99.9% in the United States.
    You are in fact a complete loony & definitely fly in the face of decades of medical science (not to mention reality).
    Chris has already provided the chart that shows the drastic decrease in measles incidence only occurred after the common use of the Measles Vaccine….so please, stop lying and learn to face the truth. Your positions are unsupported by any evidence.

  179. DRDAD
    March 31, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    Yeah that was great… Wow a journal of an imported case of measles… slow clap. Well that proves it to me! 90% of cases are imported. Explain the decrease in Yellow fever and dysentery. How about RSV. How about malaria? Are you familiar with some of the issues with vaccine induced polio? Because the Oxford Journals of Medicine are. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/49/8/1287.full
    We can’t see them unless you provide the citations. You know something like this:
    N Engl J Med. 2006 Aug 3;355(5):447-55.

  180. Chris
    March 31, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    “Yes I would rather my kids get chicken pox. And they have had it. 2weeks?? What planet do you live on? ”

    This planet, where in 1994 all three of my kids got chicken pox the year before the vaccine was available. The only kids where it lasted less than a week were those who had one vaccine and had much milder cases.

    In our house the middle child got chicken pox at preschool, and he was sick for almost two weeks covered in itchy pox. Then when he was finished the other two got it, including the six month old baby.

    She had been sleeping through the night, but no more. She was up most of the night crying in pain, and I had to sleep next to her to comfort her. It was frightening to see the pox so close to her eyes. She was lucky in that infants have a higher chance of complications. But she is not out of the woods yet, since she also still has a high chance of getting shingles multiple times starting when she is in college (which she is attending now).

    Then the child in kindergarten was so sick with fever and hundreds of pox, that he wet the his bed each night. So not only was I up with a sick baby, but also change linens and bathing her brother.

    Chicken pox went through the school the kindergartener was attending. One of those kids ended up in the hospital with a secondary narcotizing bacterial infection and was in real danger of having a limb amputated. Plus there were the siblings of child undergoing cancer treatment, they were not able to come to school for the full six weeks of the outbreak for fear of infecting (and killing) that child.

    You are the one living in a fantasy land if you think it only lasts “3-4 days.” Only a very cruel, or clueless parent would want their kids to suffer with chicken pox.

    And this bit: “The excerpt was from the CDC itself and verified that only 11% are virologically evidence of importation”… um, you might want to read the first paragraph of that link again, I have added some bolding to help you:

    In 2000, the United States achieved measles elimination (defined as interruption of year-round endemic measles transmission) (1). However, importations of measles into the United States continue to occur, posing risks for measles outbreaks and sustained measles transmission. During 2011, a total of 222 measles cases (incidence rate: 0.7 per 1 million population) and 17 measles outbreaks (defined as three or more cases linked in time or place) were reported to CDC, compared with a median of 60 (range: 37–140) cases and four (range: 2–10) outbreaks reported annually during 2001–2010. This report updates an earlier report on measles in the United States during the first 5 months of 2011 (2). Of the 222 cases, 112 (50%) were associated with 17 outbreaks, and 200 (90%) were associated with importations from other countries, including 52 (26%) cases in U.S. residents returning from abroad and 20 (10%) cases in foreign visitors. Other cases associated with importations included 67 (34%) linked epidemiologically to importations, 39 (20%) with virologic evidence suggesting recent importation, and 22 (11%) linked to cases with virologic evidence of recent importation. Most patients (86%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. The increased numbers of outbreaks and measles importations into the United States underscore the ongoing risk for measles among unvaccinated persons and the importance of vaccination against measles (3).

  181. Narad
    March 31, 2014 at 9:01 pm

    DRDAD :
    Maybe you don’t understand the study. What it is saying is that adults who have had chicken pox, when exposed to children who have chicken pox, the wild virus acts as a booster as to prevent that adult from getting shingles. This will continually be a problem because fewer kids are getting chicken pox at a young age thus making adults more prone to shingles.

    No, I understood it perfectly. You would prefer that other people suffer disease and risk sequelae because you’re too lazy to get an HZ booster. Great, you’re selfish and proud. People got shingles even when chickenpox was endemic.

    If any adult that has had chicken pox isn’t around kids with the disease, you better get your booster about every 5 years to avoid the painful shingles.

    How, pray tell, do you arrive at this figure?

  182. Chris
    March 31, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    “Explain the decrease in Yellow fever and dysentery.”

    Neither are measles. Though you can read all about Yellow Fever in The American Plague. It outlines Walter Reed’s group in Cuba finding out that mosquitoes were a vector. Any book on the building of the Panama Canal will tell you the pure military lengths that Dr. Gorgas implemented in eradicating mosquitoes from the isthmus. I have been vaccinated from Yellow Fever twice, since I as both born in Panama and lived there as a teenager.

    Dysentery is controlled through sanitation. That does not work for airborne viruses like measles.

  183. Narad
    March 31, 2014 at 9:06 pm

    By the way, I finally contracted chicken pox at age 20. From someone who had had it before. I was incapacitated for a week, and if it hadn’t been during winter break, it may well have cost me an entire extra year to completion of my undergraduate degree, since one of the required courses in a sequence was only offered every spring and was a prerequisite to the final one.

  184. Narad
    March 31, 2014 at 9:11 pm

    DRDAD :
    Because the Oxford Journals of Medicine are.

    The “Oxford Journals of Medicine”? Free clue: OUP doesn’t own CID. And yes, everybody is aware of VAPP and VDPV. That’s why one switches to IPV as part of the eradication strategy.

  185. Lyndsey
    April 1, 2014 at 9:00 am

    Vaccinated children carry the measles virus to begin with. Therefore, within 14 days of vaccination your child can spread measles

  186. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 9:06 am

    Lyndsey,

    Citation needed.

  187. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 9:39 am

    @Lyndsey – that isn’t even biologically possible, since the MMR does not contain whole virus.

  188. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 9:41 am

    @lyndsey – and just using common sense would tell you that if what you said was true, given that hundreds of millions of doses of MMR have been given in this country, that we should see hundreds of thousands of cases of measles……..your assertion defies even basic logic.

  189. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 9:47 am
  190. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 10:01 am

    The conclusions reached in that article are very telling (and informative):

    In conclusion it’s clear that “vaccine shedding” is a nonsense phrase. The lack of accounts of children transmitting viruses to younger siblings and friends after vaccination is a dead giveaway. Whilst viral shedding is a reality we can be confident that:

    Viral shedding applies only to live virus vaccines and is significantly low, low risk

    Post vaccination viral shedding of rotavirus and varicella is detected in the stools for 4-6 weeks respectively. It’s of such low risk as to be of cautionary interest regarding immunocompromised individuals

    Genuine concern about viral shedding in these groups is managed with sound hygiene and avoiding contact with stools

    In rare cases of post varicella immunisation vesicular rash shedding may occur. Transmission is still unlikely

    The lack of viral shedding following MMR eliminates any concerns about transmission

    Claims of DTaP shedding and transmission are bogus

    Stories about whooping cough transmission from vaccine shedding are demonstrably false

    Stories of polio infection being a risk due to shedding are designed to scare

    Antivaccination lobbyists use false and incomplete information about shedding to create fear of vaccines/the vaccinated

    Shedding of LAIV is at markedly low concentration, short duration and transmission is dwarfed by seasonal influenza transmission

    Accurate information about the topic is drowned out by antivaccination sites and “mothering” forums making inaccurate claims

  191. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 11:19 am

    Viral Shedding is false. Except when it happens. I do agree it is a low risk. Although it can happen with some vaccinations.

  192. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 11:32 am

    @DRDAD – citations please….

  193. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 11:46 am

    You make a great point. Your children’s immune systems are not good. Both my kids had it 2 nights of itching, oatmeal/camamile bath, Scabbed over done.
    Another interesting point is people saying that I got chicken pox TWICE!! Well it appears that even IF you got the vaccine it most certainly wouldn’t have worked because if natural immunity didn’t work for you, the vaccine won’t either. Titer levels are based off of nat imm numbers.
    On the importation, yep 90%”LINKED” 11% virological evidence!!!! as you state the DNA, the DNA was matched in only 11% Does that make sense now? 20% were “linked” to import. But that isn’t really the point anyway. Yes most measles is not from the US and when an unvaccinated person is exposed to it, they get it. But so do people that are fully vaccinated. The point is the people that are unvaccinated have taken no risk of getting the vaccine (vaccine induced injury,toxicity,auto-immune dys etc.) and those who are vaccinated have. I appreciate your story of how your kids had bad chicken pox, That is minuscule compared to someone with a vaccine injury that is utter confusion and panic. Have you ever read one of those stories or do you not have any compassion for them. Do you think theses people make this shit up? Or are they just too stupid to realize that they are wrong to think that a vaccine injury is SO remote that it can’t possibly happen, because adjuvants and large animal proteins are good things for kids. Line your kids up for shots and shut up about others having a different perspective on what is and is not safe for their kids.

    Chris :
    “Yes I would rather my kids get chicken pox. And they have had it. 2weeks?? What planet do you live on? ”
    This planet, where in 1994 all three of my kids got chicken pox the year before the vaccine was available. The only kids where it lasted less than a week were those who had one vaccine and had much milder cases.
    In our house the middle child got chicken pox at preschool, and he was sick for almost two weeks covered in itchy pox. Then when he was finished the other two got it, including the six month old baby.
    She had been sleeping through the night, but no more. She was up most of the night crying in pain, and I had to sleep next to her to comfort her. It was frightening to see the pox so close to her eyes. She was lucky in that infants have a higher chance of complications. But she is not out of the woods yet, since she also still has a high chance of getting shingles multiple times starting when she is in college (which she is attending now).
    Then the child in kindergarten was so sick with fever and hundreds of pox, that he wet the his bed each night. So not only was I up with a sick baby, but also change linens and bathing her brother.
    Chicken pox went through the school the kindergartener was attending. One of those kids ended up in the hospital with a secondary narcotizing bacterial infection and was in real danger of having a limb amputated. Plus there were the siblings of child undergoing cancer treatment, they were not able to come to school for the full six weeks of the outbreak for fear of infecting (and killing) that child.
    You are the one living in a fantasy land if you think it only lasts “3-4 days.” Only a very cruel, or clueless parent would want their kids to suffer with chicken pox.
    And this bit: “The excerpt was from the CDC itself and verified that only 11% are virologically evidence of importation”… um, you might want to read the first paragraph of that link again, I have added some bolding to help you:

    In 2000, the United States achieved measles elimination (defined as interruption of year-round endemic measles transmission) (1). However, importations of measles into the United States continue to occur, posing risks for measles outbreaks and sustained measles transmission. During 2011, a total of 222 measles cases (incidence rate: 0.7 per 1 million population) and 17 measles outbreaks (defined as three or more cases linked in time or place) were reported to CDC, compared with a median of 60 (range: 37–140) cases and four (range: 2–10) outbreaks reported annually during 2001–2010. This report updates an earlier report on measles in the United States during the first 5 months of 2011 (2). Of the 222 cases, 112 (50%) were associated with 17 outbreaks, and 200 (90%) were associated with importations from other countries, including 52 (26%) cases in U.S. residents returning from abroad and 20 (10%) cases in foreign visitors. Other cases associated with importations included 67 (34%) linked epidemiologically to importations, 39 (20%) with virologic evidence suggesting recent importation, and 22 (11%) linked to cases with virologic evidence of recent importation. Most patients (86%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. The increased numbers of outbreaks and measles importations into the United States underscore the ongoing risk for measles among unvaccinated persons and the importance of vaccination against measles (3).

  194. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 11:52 am

    How about when a vaccinated child is exposed to measles, if the vaccine works perfectly and they don’t become sick they still ARE CONTAGIOUS while their body processes the infection. Or is your thought that they are somehow now ASEPTIC?

    Lawrence :
    @lyndsey – and just using common sense would tell you that if what you said was true, given that hundreds of millions of doses of MMR have been given in this country, that we should see hundreds of thousands of cases of measles……..your assertion defies even basic logic.

  195. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 11:58 am

    @DRDAD – actually, you’re reading it wrong. The 11% number you are quoting is related to the fact that those cases were related to “recent” importation – meaning that the disease was still imported, it just took longer to infect those particular individuals.

    Since the diseases you talk about are related to far worse (and factual) side-effects, rather than the fictional side-effects that you claim to connect to vaccines – people are imbecilic to believe that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent.

  196. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 11:59 am

    @DRDAD – citation please….and again, if enough people vaccinated, your scenario would be fiction anyway.

    You do realize that Measles can be eradicated, right?

  197. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 12:05 pm

    @DRDAD – sounds very much like you are advocating for vaccinations, since we know that if everyone was vaccinated, the chances of any sort of dangerous exposure to the disease would be virtually nil.

  198. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    Show us a Randomized controlled double-blind study of the not only the efficiency and the safety of any vaccine. Regardless it comes down to a principle. If you think it is safe to shortcut the immune system by injecting foreign proteins (animal and other), heavy metals, aborted fetal lung tissue (WI-38) go ahead, it’s there for you, the research assures you it’s perfectly fine. Do be surprised if some people think twice about it.

  199. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 12:53 pm

    DRDAD: “our children’s immune systems are not good.”

    Wow, you are really big on blaming the victim. I bet you think Olivia Dahl was the cause of her encephalitis an not the measles virus.

    “Both my kids had it 2 nights of itching, oatmeal/camamile bath, Scabbed over done.
    Another interesting point is people saying that I got chicken pox TWICE!!”

    Guess what, bright boy: there are other mild rash diseases. If that happened sometime in the last eighteen years, it was mostly likely not chicken pox but something like roseola.

  200. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    DRDAD: “Show us a Randomized controlled double-blind study of the not only the efficiency and the safety of any vaccine.”

    Have you ever heard of the Belmont Report?

    If the studies in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence inadequate, then design one that will make you happy. Then have it approved by an independent review board to see if it complies with the Belmont Report, and then write a grant to get it funded. Submit that grant to organizations like SafeMine, Autism Speaks, Generation Rescue and the Dwoskin Family Foundation. Then go do it.

  201. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    @DRDAD – more easily refuted anti-vax lies?

    As to your request – I’m sure you would be more than happy to be the one to select the thousands of newborns who would be randomly assigned to either the control (placebo) or vaccine group….then explain to the parents why they can’t know if their child was vaccinated or not….and see what happens?

    Again, you ignore all of the actual scientific research, including:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    And:

    http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/yes-autism-rate-rising-vaccines-caused-vaccines/

    Not to mention:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

  202. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    Yes you are right I was reading it wrong- 20% linked with suggested virologic evidence.
    You fail to acknowledge that vaccines pose a risk, not only acute injury but also lasting effect of possible immune dysfunction. Measles is much easier to treat than auto-immune disorders or neuro dysfunction that could (low%) happen. And your risk is increased if you get the vaccine AND you still get the disease. Not good enough. To me the safety of the vaccine is irrelevant if the effectiveness is not there. The numbers of people contracting diseases they have supposedly been fully vaccinated for is TOO high. Not worth it. I wish vaccines were so effective that it would be a black and white issue but it’s not. In the KiGGS data measles is prevalent in 15% of unvaccinated population and 5% in FULLY vaxed population. Yes that is a 3 fold increase in prevelance, but that is not good enough success to warrant the insult of repeated vaccines. IMO

    Lawrence :
    @DRDAD – actually, you’re reading it wrong. The 11% number you are quoting is related to the fact that those cases were related to “recent” importation – meaning that the disease was still imported, it just took longer to infect those particular individuals.
    Since the diseases you talk about are related to far worse (and factual) side-effects, rather than the fictional side-effects that you claim to connect to vaccines – people are imbecilic to believe that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent.

  203. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    DRDAD :
    How about when a vaccinated child is exposed to measles, if the vaccine works perfectly and they don’t become sick they still ARE CONTAGIOUS while their body processes the infection.

    Not only is this both incoherent and false, as secondary viremia is required in order to be contagious, it turns out that there is only one known instance of secondary transmission following measles disease in a successfully twice-vaccinated person: cases of secondary vaccine failure are less dangerous than measles in an unvaccinated person.

  204. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    @DRDAD – actually, Measles is not “treatable.” You can treat the symptoms, but if something serious, like encephalitis or blindess occurs or worse, SSPE, there is nothing that can be done.

    Very, very rarely, there are serious vaccine reactions – but these reactions occur so rarely that there is no comparison between them & the much more common reactions that routinely occur as part of natural infections.

    During the last major measles outbreak in France, over 25% of cases resulted in hospitalizations….doesn’t sound so benign to me, so why do you continue to claim that these diseases are not dangerous?

  205. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    Seriously? You think this is the ONLY time this has happened. Now you are sounding as crazy as me. A fully(more than fully) vaccinated individual gets measles and transmits it to 4 fully vaccinated people. Of course this is unprecedented. I’m not impressed, thanks for the study though it furthers my point.
    BTW I never examined the person who claimed to have gotten pox twice, I can only go off of what I was lectured on this forum. I’m sure it was diagnosed by his GP because he was terrified of the impending doom that the chicken pox would bring him.

    Narad :

    DRDAD :
    How about when a vaccinated child is exposed to measles, if the vaccine works perfectly and they don’t become sick they still ARE CONTAGIOUS while their body processes the infection.

    Not only is this both incoherent and false, as secondary viremia is required in order to be contagious, it turns out that there is only one known instance of secondary transmission following measles disease in a successfully twice-vaccinated person: cases of secondary vaccine failure are less dangerous than measles in an unvaccinated person.

  206. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    Yes measles can be spread in the first phase of infection. Stop lying. It’s less but it is absolutely possible.

  207. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    @DRDAD – thanks for admitting that you sound crazy….totally makes sense now.

  208. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    And why should vaccinated individuals be exposed to a disease that is supposed to be eradicated in the United States?

  209. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 2:49 pm

    DRDAD :
    Show us a Randomized controlled double-blind study of the not only the efficiency and the safety of any vaccine.

    “Us”? Whatever, here you go, Gollum.

    Regardless it comes down to a principle. If you think it is safe to shortcut the immune system by injecting foreign proteins (animal and other), heavy metals, aborted fetal lung tissue (WI-38) go ahead, it’s there for you, the research assures you it’s perfectly fine. Do be surprised if some people think twice about it.

    There is no “tissue” in any vaccine. There are no “heavy metals.” Note that tetanus vaccination is impossible without “injecting foreign protein.” You’re merely repeating lame antivax tropes. And you forgot the monkey pus.

  210. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    DRDAD :
    Yes measles can be spread in the first phase of infection. Stop lying. It’s less but it is absolutely possible.

    No, it is not. Infectivity does not occur until prodrome, which does not occur until secondary viremia. Moreover, immunity prevents primary viremia as well. If your half-baked claim had a drop of merit to it, it would apply to “natural” immunity as well. There is no “infection.”

    And if you’re going to call me a liar, you had damn well back it up with more than bluster.

  211. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 3:33 pm

    DRDAD :
    Seriously? You think this is the ONLY time this has happened. Now you are sounding as crazy as me. A fully(more than fully) vaccinated individual gets measles and transmits it to 4 fully vaccinated people. Of course this is unprecedented.

    What is “more than fully” supposed to mean? If it weren’t remarkable, it wouldn’t have been publishable. I’m waiting on a copy of the full text, although I have to be near the library later and may pick it up myself if a friend doesn’t have time.

    I’m not impressed, thanks for the study though it furthers my point.

    And that would be how? Note that there were no tertiary cases.

  212. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 3:37 pm

    Good information on the US Measles Eradication Program:

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

  213. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 4:07 pm

    DRDAD :
    because adjuvants and large animal proteins are good things for kids

    You keep saying this, but predictably, you fail to back it up. What do you have? Ovalbumin? That’s 45 kDa: not large. Hydrolyzed gelatin? That’s 2–5 kDa. So where are they?

  214. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    Additionally If I were to post anything from an Anti-Vax publication, it would be dismissed. Why isn’t the same true for anything Provax. A website called antiantivax.

  215. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    @DRDAD – because anti-vax publications routinely rely on lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations of data…..genuine research and scientific articles aren’t pro-anything, they just present the facts.

    The fact is, vaccines are incredibly safe, very effective and over the past hundred years or more, responsible for preventing hundreds of millions of cases of disease…..

  216. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 4:44 pm

    One of the better sources for Public Health and Vaccine Data:

    http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

  217. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 5:59 pm

    Aluminum is not a heavy metal?

  218. Lawrence
    April 1, 2014 at 6:13 pm

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/#Other_Vaccine_Additives

    Again, the Science is against you…..

  219. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 6:29 pm

    WRONG ABOUT WHAT?? I should consult a table that SOME GUY MADE rather than take the CDC and the manufacturers data?
    I don’t think anyone is uninformed enough to think that thimerosal is in every vaccine or that aluminum is in every vaccine. Yes they all have varying components and each one is fairly insignificant but the cumulative effect is greater.

  220. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    apparently the moderator doesn’t like the terms MRC-5 or Wi-38. Comment has been waiting for 2 hours.

  221. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    DRDAD: “Aluminum is not a heavy metal?”

    That is hilarious. You might want to go to a hardware store, go to where they sell metal rods. Pick up one that is steel (which is mostly iron), then pick up a similar size one of aluminum. Compare.

    You might also want to familiarize yourself with this periodic table.

    By the way, the MMR does not contain an anjuvant.

  222. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    DRDAD, I have the same issue when I try to post from certain websites (like those that use the “Blogger” platform).

  223. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    Narad :
    If it weren’t remarkable, it wouldn’t have been publishable. I’m waiting on a copy of the full text, although I have to be near the library later and may pick it up myself if a friend doesn’t have time.

    Here we go. If anyone wants specific reference entries, just ask. The short story is that of the four secondary cases, one was immunocompromised, one was born in 1959 and so had “natural immunity,” one was fully vaccinated, and one, aged 35, had no vaccine documentation but a titer drawn at age 30.

    “Subsequent spread of disease has not been documented from measles patients with a verified secondary immune response [9, 12, 13]….

    “The index patient was a 22-year-old female resident of NYC…. the index patient worked at a theater frequented by tourists. Eighty-eight exposed contacts aged 20–65 years were identified in NYC during her infectious period, of whom 66 (75%) had documentation of immunity, 10 (11%) were not immune to measles at the time of exposure, and 12 (14%) had unknown immune status…. the index patient worked at a theater frequented by tourists. Eighty-eight exposed contacts aged 20–65 years were identified in NYC during her infectious period, of whom 66 (75%) had documentation of immunity, 10 (11%) were not immune to measles at the time of exposure, and 12 (14%) had unknown immune status.

    “Subsequently, 4 additional patients were identified among contacts of the index patient (Table 1). Three of the secondary patients (cases 2, 4, and 5) were healthcare workers at a clinic where the index patient received care and were exposed to the index patient on her day of rash onset. The other secondary patient (case 3) was a coworker of the index patient and was exposed to the index patient 2 days prior to her rash onset…. Two of the secondary patients had 2 documented doses of MMR vaccine and 2 had prior positive measles IgG antibody results…. One patient (case 2) had a medical history of immunosuppression….

    “Although other outbreaks have been reported in which persons with a history of MMR vaccination were confirmed with measles, this is the first report in which a person with a verified secondary vaccine failure despite receipt of two doses of MMR was demonstrated to be capable of transmitting disease to other individuals [8–13, 33].

    “The laboratory results of intermediate or high-avidity IgG antibody indicate that the index patient and all of the secondary patients had past immunologic experience with measles through vaccination or natural measles infection. However, the index’s relatively high IgM to IgG ratio was typical of a primary response, whereas those of the 4 secondary patients were consistent with a secondary immune response [14, 24]…. Despite >200 exposures identified through investigations following notification of the 4 secondary patients, no additional cases were detected. This is in agreement with other published investigations describing a lack of transmission by documented cases of secondary vaccine failure [12, 13]. In each of the secondary patients, neutralizing antibody may have waned sufficiently to allow symptomatic infection, but the anamnestic response upon reexposure to measles generated a rapid and robust memory response that may have reduced their infectious period. However, in the setting of high population-level immunity, it is challenging to evaluate transmissibility. In contrast, the index patient’s lower neutralizing antibody titer after infection provides a biologically plausible explanation for her ability to transmit virus….

    “Detection of IgG is a proxy for immunity, not an absolute correlate of protection from disease. Similarly, the inability to detect measles-specific IgG should not be construed as a lack of immunity in persons who have been previously vaccinated, as cellular immunity and antibody functionality play important roles in protection [17, 34–37]. Neutralizing antibody titers have the closest correlation with immunity to measles, but assays that measure measles neutralizing antibody are not widely available, and tests of cellular immunity are challenging to perform….

    “There are limitations to this evaluation. Although provider documentation of MMR vaccination was obtained, it is not possible to know about the quality of the vaccine received. Inappropriate storage conditions could alter the effectiveness of vaccine. It is possible that the patients never responded adequately or only achieved minimal titers following vaccination; however, the laboratory results of high-avidity IgG antibody demonstrate that all the patients had responded previously to measles virus and are not primary vaccine failures.”

  224. DRDAD
    April 1, 2014 at 7:45 pm

    I’m sorry, most people when speaking in a medical arena consider Al a heavy metal. Apparently not you. Ok MMR does not contain an adjuvant, so no vaccines do then, Right? You are caught up in the minutia. Next you will be commenting on my punctuation,.; Steel is mostly Iron(Fe),<–smart huh? Great, clears that up. I think I am done, you have all changed my mind. I'm going to Wal-Mart to get my boosters.

    Chris :
    DRDAD: “Aluminum is not a heavy metal?”
    That is hilarious. You might want to go to a hardware store, go to where they sell metal rods. Pick up one that is steel (which is mostly iron), then pick up a similar size one of aluminum. Compare.
    You might also want to familiarize yourself with this periodic table.
    By the way, the MMR does not contain an anjuvant.

  225. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 7:59 pm

    DRDAD :
    Aluminum is not a heavy metal?

    If aluminum, with atomic number 13, is a heavy metal (in point of fact, it’s a “poor metal), then so is magnesium, with atomic number 12 (which is a bona fide metal). A “banana bag” has 2 mg of magnesium sulfate, or 0.4 mg of magnesium, administered intravenously. None of the childhood vaccines, administered intramuscularly appear to exceed this in terms of aluminum.

  226. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 8:01 pm

    ^ Note that I didn’t bother to check whether the listed aluminum values are actually the amount of the salt, which I corrected for in the magnesium value.

  227. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 8:03 pm

    DRDAD :
    I’m sorry, most people when speaking in a medical arena consider Al a heavy metal.

    ORLY? Are you professionally “in a medical arena”? Or do you mean “in an antivax crank agglomeration”?

  228. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 8:10 pm

    DRDAD :
    apparently the moderator doesn’t like the terms MRC-5 or Wi-38. Comment has been waiting for 2 hours.

    What comment? This appeared right on cue, which is why I was able to respond to it.

    Did you miss that? There is no “tissue” in any vaccine. “The moderator” does not exist, as the routine necromanced robospam illustrates.

    That takes out your second term. Let’s see whether the first one generates a robohold:

    “MRC-5″

  229. Narad
    April 1, 2014 at 8:10 pm

    Nope. So, apparently, you’re again making stuff up.

  230. Chris
    April 1, 2014 at 8:43 pm

    DRDAD: “I’m sorry, most people when speaking in a medical arena consider Al a heavy metal.”

    Only if they are scientifically illiterate. I was a structures engineer, so I am well acquainted with the properties of several aluminum alloys, steel alloys, cast iron and even titanium. You should look at the periodic table I linked to. Even if you do not know how to read the table, at least click on each block, there is more information on each element (for fun check out the sodium party videos).

    “Steel is mostly Iron(Fe),<–smart huh?"

    Seeing how you thought that aluminum was a heavy metal, I assumed that you would not be familiar with the elemental content of steel. Some of your comments lead me to believe that your scientific literacy is a bit under the mean. How come you did not know about the eradication of mosquitoes and the vaccine to control yellow fever?

  231. DRDAD
    April 2, 2014 at 4:07 pm

    So the argument has digressed to whether Al is a heavy metal. Ok Al is not a “HEAVY Metal” as far as a “structures engineer” standpoint. It is still a metal though correct? And it is contained in some vaccines right? Not MMR though I know. We do get it from nature, water and food by the digestive tract. And by all puposes it’s good. I have no more time to argue about arbitrary words like “heavy”. Also No I did not know that the Aedes mosquito had been eradicated!! Wow that is actually good news. Thanks for the tip, I will tell others that I learned that on the shotofprevention website!!

  232. DRDAD
    April 2, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    Very, very rarely, there are serious vaccine reactions – but these reactions occur so rarely that there is no comparison between them & the much more common reactions that routinely occur as part of natural infections.

    Like Diarrhea? (highest complication= ~8%) per CDC

  233. DRDAD
    April 2, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    I like this from the full text
    “it is not possible to know about the quality of the vaccine received. Inappropriate storage conditions could alter the effectiveness of vaccine. It is possible that the patients never responded adequately or only achieved minimal titers following vaccination; however, the laboratory results of high-avidity IgG antibody demonstrate that all the patients had responded previously to measles virus and are not primary vaccine failures.”
    Now That is science!

  234. Chris
    April 2, 2014 at 4:37 pm

    “It is still a metal though correct? And it is contained in some vaccines right?”

    So are iron, calcium, sodium, and potassium. All of those are required for your body to function. And most of them are heavier than aluminum. So no, “heavy” is not an arbitrary bit of vocabulary.

    “Also No I did not know that the Aedes mosquito had been eradicated!!”

    I never said that, especially they live in areas that are not the isthmus.

    You seem to want to sound all smart and sciencey, but when you get basic facts just wrong, we cannot take you seriously. Perhaps we will when you come up with some actual verifiable evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

  235. DRDAD
    April 2, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    I have NEVER even said that. I acknowledge and always have, that the lower risks actually favor the vaccine. My only issue is that pro-vax rarely addresses the FACT that there is a risk with getting the vaccine. And the taking the risk of the vaccine does not preclude you from getting the disease. The bigger issue I have is with the “blame game” of ONLY the unvaccinated people spreading the disease. Which have proven over and over to not be based in reality. Sure, during an outbreak more unvaxed people will get the disease, they have NO defense. But there are plenty of fully vaccinated people doing their part of spreading the disease as well.

  236. Lawrence
    April 2, 2014 at 5:51 pm

    @DRDAD – no one ever denies that there is a risk and / or adverse reactions connected to vaccines. What we hate is when people try to claim that adverse reactions take place at a rate much higher than reality – the chances of a serious vaccine reaction are slight, so slight that we would expect to see a serious reaction in 1 in a million vaccinations, if not even more rare….

    For the diseases in the wild, we see serious consequences in as few as 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 cases…and death in as few as 1 in 1000 cases for measles – and higher in cases of SSPE for instance.

    We are happy to state the risks, but it is irresponsible to overstate those same risks.

  237. DRDAD
    April 2, 2014 at 6:40 pm

    1 in a million?? It appears that the MMRV causes a febrile seizure in about 8.5 per 10,000.
    Speaking of research lets see a citation for those numbers you just suggested. Death, measles 1-1,000 no pre-existing condition. Go.

  238. Lawrence
  239. Narad
    April 2, 2014 at 8:46 pm

    DRDAD :
    Speaking of research lets see a citation for those numbers you just suggested. Death, measles 1-1,000 no pre-existing condition. Go.

    “Go”? You’ve done nothing but throw out random assertions, causing people to waste time laying them to rest, and now, for something that anybody who can string together the words ‘measles’ and ‘mortality’ can determine nearly instantly, and you think you get to start making demands?

  240. Chris
    April 2, 2014 at 8:49 pm

    This is why I always ask for verifiable studies that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles. Read the links provided by Lawrence. Then go get the well documented research that the MMR comes close the level of harm noted in these quotes from his second link:

    Pneumonia. Measles infects the respiratory tracts of nearly all affected persons. Pneumonia is the most common severe complication of measles and accounts for most measles-associated deaths [80]. In studies of unselected hospitalized children with measles, 55% had radiographic changes of bronchopneumonia, consolidation, or other infiltrates; 77% of children with severe disease and 41% of children with mild disease had radiographic changes [81]. In recent years, pneumonia was present in 9% of children <5 years old with measles in the United States (table 2), in 0%–8% of cases during outbreaks [82—87], and in 49%–57% of adults [88, 89].

    Pneumonia is mostly why about 10% of the cases in Wales and about a quarter of those in France required hospital care. But wait, there is more:

    Postinfectious encephalomyelitis (PIE) occurs in 13 per 1000 infected persons, usually 3–10 days after onset of rash [39, 131]. Higher rates of PIE due to measles occur in adolescents and adults than in school-aged children (table 2 [124, 132, 133]). PIE usually begins with the abrupt onset of new fever, seizures, altered mental status, and multifocal neurological signs [131, 134]. Although measles virus was found in cerebrovascular endothelial cells in a person who died during the first few days of rash [135], the virus usually is not found in the central nervous systems of persons with PIE. PIE appears to be caused by an abnormal immune response that affects myelin basic protein [61, 136]. As many as 25% of people with PIE due to measles die, and ∼33% of survivors have lifelong neurological sequelae, including severe retardation, motor impairment, blindness, and sometimes hemiparesis [39, 131].

  241. Narad
    April 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    DRDAD :
    So the argument has digressed to whether Al is a heavy metal.

    “Argument”? You stated something false, and you’re complaining that being corrected is a “digression“?

    Ok Al is not a “HEAVY Metal” as far as a “structures engineer” standpoint.

    It’s not a heavy metal “as far as” any standpoint. What part of “if that, then so is magnesium, which is delivered intravenously” did you not understand?

    It is still a metal though correct?

    It is a “poor metal” (depending on who you’re talking to). Magnesium, on the other hand, suffers no such ambiguity. There’s another one that I shall return to shortly.

    And it is contained in some vaccines right?

    The adjuvants used in the U.S. are aluminum salts, sometimes in the form of wet gels. Not aluminum metal. So let’s get back to that other metal: sodium. Metallic sodium is reactive. As in “may explode if placed in water” reactive. Yet, the salt sodium chloride is right there in them IV bags. Do people’s veins catch fire? Not that I’ve noticed.

    I have no more time to argue about arbitrary words like “heavy”.

    Not only is not an “arbitrary word,” it is a word that you deliberately chose because you were deploying a scare tactic.

  242. Narad
    April 2, 2014 at 9:32 pm

    DRDAD :
    The bigger issue I have is with the “blame game” of ONLY the unvaccinated people spreading the disease. Which have proven over and over to not be based in reality.

    Not by you here, though.

  243. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 12:05 am

    Well the issue is that the vaccine does a poor job of providing protection from mother to child through blood anti-bodies and then later on milk. For instance 8 of the 12 pediatric cases were too young to be vaccinated so they were given no protection from the mother like they would have with natural immunity. And 4 adults had full vaccination the others, well maybe some but they just consider them NOT vaccinated for some reason. ??
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/measles-cases-nyc-health-officials-urge-shots-article-1.1742983

  244. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 12:22 am

    “Well the issue is that the vaccine does a poor job of providing protection from mother to child through blood anti-bodies and then later on milk”

    Really? You do know that the MMR is not given to children under age one year, right? Most kids get weaned by that time. What evidence do you have that kids under a year are perfectly protected by being breastfed by women who caught measles? Give us a scientific citation that it protects better than the MMR for older children.

    Also, New York City has a population of eight million. The MMR vaccine with two doses is 99% effective. So what is 1% of eight million, or even just one million? What is the ratio of those four vaccinated adult to the total vaccinated population of that city? What is the ratio of the nine adults with no record of vaccination to the unvaccinated population?

  245. Narad
    April 3, 2014 at 1:59 pm

    Chris :
    What evidence do you have that kids under a year are perfectly protected by being breastfed by women who caught measles?

    Breastfeeding mainly provides secretory IgA, which provides very little protection indeed against measles. The maternal immunity in this case is basically transplacental IgG. Waaijenborg et al. found that passive immunity from vaccinated mothers fell below the protective threshold at 3.3 months, but the same was true for naturally infected mothers at around 5.3 months. The accompanying commentary makes clear that this likely isn’t the whole story. It is odd, however, that they don’t consider the simple possibility of offering boosters to women who are actively planning to become pregnant (the current recommendation is to delay conception for 28 days after vaccination, but what evidence there is doesn’t show any actual harm when this isn’t observed).

  246. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    You will note, Narad, that DRDAD is complaining that the MMR is not 100% effective, but is suggesting that breastfeeding by mothers who had natural measles works to prevent infection perfectly.

  247. Narad
    April 3, 2014 at 4:20 pm

    Chris :
    You will note, Narad, that DRDAD is complaining that the MMR is not 100% effective, but is suggesting that breastfeeding by mothers who had natural measles works to prevent infection perfectly.

    Actually, he seems to be asserting that vaccination provides no maternal passive immunity:

    DRDAD :
    For instance 8 of the 12 pediatric cases were too young to be vaccinated so they were given no protection from the mother like they would have with natural immunity.

    One might note that he also doesn’t know whether the mothers had infection-based immunity.

  248. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 4:24 pm

    Most mothers now have NO natural immunity to measles, which is the problem, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10381212 vaccinations perpetuate the problem. It’s a give and take. And no not perfect either, but another study
    “Children with naturally acquired immunity had significantly higher titres than children with vaccine-induced immunity titres (p < 0.001). After revaccination of the previously vaccinated children, a significant booster rise was seen (p < 0.001).** After revaccination of children with naturally acquired immunity, no significant booster effect was observed**. Sixty-five children of the 332 (20%) previously vaccinated children had no or borderline measles titres prior to the booster. The study suggests that the vaccine-induced measles antibodies decline with time and may fall under the protective level. After revaccination, a significant antibody rise occurs. Only 0.6% fell below the estimated, lower, protection level and 8.4% had borderline levels after revaccination.

    **you all assume anti-body titer is ALL that matters, which has been known to be a complete falsehood in naturally acquired immunity. **
    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit144.full
    These maternal titers are affected by her nutritional and immune status, and evidence demonstrates that antibody titers induced by vaccination are typically lower than titers induced by natural disease [3, 5, 6, 10]. After decades of vaccination against childhood diseases, it is clear that successful vaccine programs have resulted in dramatic decreases in morbidity and mortality. However, the increasing prevalence of vaccine-derived maternal antibodies has also led to unexpected outcomes. This is most evident in the emergence of measles susceptibility in young infants living in highly vaccinated populations where the measles vaccine has been in use for decades [11–14

  249. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Chris :
    You will note, Narad, that DRDAD is complaining that the MMR is not 100% effective, but is suggesting that breastfeeding by mothers who had natural measles works to prevent infection perfectly.

    No doesn’t work perfectly, but it has been repeatedly shown to offer better protection. As far as getting a booster vaccination while pregnant, although the experts would tell you that might not be a good idea, you think it would be just fine. Interesting.

  250. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    So, DRDAD, what do you think is the best way to protect infants from measles? Provide actual scientific citations to support your assertions.

  251. Narad
    April 3, 2014 at 5:15 pm

    DRDAD :
    As far as getting a booster vaccination while pregnant, although the experts would tell you that might not be a good idea, you think it would be just fine. Interesting.

    Please go back and try to read for comprehension this time.

  252. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    Chris :
    So, DRDAD, what do you think is the best way to protect infants from measles? Provide actual scientific citations to support your assertions.

    I love it how you always want a STUDY or a citation. Have you ever LEARNED anything? Gravity? Show me a study that proves it..
    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.long

  253. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 6:22 pm

    Conclusions. Children of mothers vaccinated against measles and, possibly, rubella have lower concentrations of maternal antibodies and lose protection by maternal antibodies at an earlier age than children of mothers in communities that oppose vaccination. This increases the risk of disease transmission in highly vaccinated populations.

  254. DRDAD
    April 3, 2014 at 6:25 pm

    >what evidence there is doesn’t show any actual harm when this isn’t observed).

    Scientifically speaking, No evidence does not equal no harm.

  255. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    So you have stated a problem, how do you plan to solve it? Provide us a sure fire way to prevent measles in infants and children. Provide a citation to show that it works.

  256. novalox
    April 3, 2014 at 7:57 pm

    DRDAD :
    Conclusions. Children of mothers vaccinated against measles and, possibly, rubella have lower concentrations of maternal antibodies and lose protection by maternal .antibodies at an earlier age than children of mothers in communities that oppose vaccination. This increases the risk of disease transmission in highly vaccinated populations.

    I do like the part that you conveniently omitted.

    It is extremely important to protect this large number of susceptible children, who have a high probability of a severe outcome when infected. An obvious solution is to lower the age at which the first dose of MMR is administered, but this could lower the vaccine efficacy because immunization at a younger age is hampered by different factors, such as the immaturity of the immune response. An alternative solution is to temporarily lower the age at which the first dose of MMR vaccine is administered to one when the risk of exposure to measles is high.

    Of course, having more people vaccinated against measles can prevent the actual disease from getting a foothold and infecting vulnerable populations via herd immunity, but judging by your continuing evasions of the questions asked of you and poor understanding of the material you are reading, I doubt you’ll understand.

    Also, judging by your comments, you would rather have people suffer from the actual disease than prevent it in the first place. Why in the world would you want that, unless you actually like people to suffer from something preventable.

  257. Narad
    April 3, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    DRDAD :
    Most mothers now have NO natural immunity to measles, which is the problem, http[:]//www[.]ncbi[.]nlm[.]nih[.]gov/pubmed/10381212

    Did you miss the part where this is an analysis of mothers who did have “natural” immunity? This is merely the “all you people have to get sick for my convenience” routine again.

    And no not perfect either, but another study

    Which, for reference, since you didn’t bother to cite it, is this.

    “Children with naturally acquired immunity….["]

    Nice selective quotation (actually, that may be generous, since what comes next suggests you don’t understand what you’re reading). Why do you think a booster dose is given in the first place? What do you think a robust secondary response means?

    **you all assume anti-body titer is ALL that matters, which has been known to be a complete falsehood in naturally acquired immunity. **

    This undermines your own argument.

    ["]These maternal titers are affected….["]

    Yes, I already cited this (except that I used the final version). This is an editorial commentary on Waaijenborg et al. You missed the part where disease-based maternal passive immunity is also inadequate by 6 months of age.

  258. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 8:42 pm

    novalox: “Also, judging by your comments, you would rather have people suffer from the actual disease than prevent it in the first place. Why in the world would you want that, unless you actually like people to suffer from something preventable”

    Narad: “This is merely the “all you people have to get sick for my convenience” routine again.”

    It seems that if DRDAD ruled the world the only women who would be allowed to have children would be those who had survived a measles infection, and were capable of breastfeeding.

    It is funny, because just a hundred years ago all mothers had survived measles and mostly breastfed (not my grandmother, she was adopted because her mother died at birth, and her father could not take care of a newborn). And yet measles was still killing children (the last page has some interesting comments that could apply today to a couple of pediatricians in Southern California): A STATISTICAL STUDY OF MEASLES (1914).

    So DRDAD needs to clearly explain his plan on how to protect babies and children from measles, with supporting scientific documentation.

  259. Chris
    April 3, 2014 at 8:44 pm

    Ugh, bad wording: “her mother died while giving birth”

  260. Chris
    April 4, 2014 at 11:44 pm

    So after I (again) ask this question:

    So you have stated a problem, how do you plan to solve it? Provide us a sure fire way to prevent measles in infants and children. Provide a citation to show that it works.

    What is the response? Come on, what is the response? Give us the proven way to prevent measles!

  261. April 7, 2014 at 4:59 pm

    A lot of closed-minded individuals posting here. Individual freedom is what it is. Measles outbreaks have occurred many times since the vaccine’s introduction, and usually in very highly-vaccinated populations, as the outbreaks in 2013 were as well. The one exception is the church in Texas. If you want to use your hatred of a particular religion as the basis for FORCED vaccinations, you are seriously misled. It is unfortunate.

    If the government started giving injections of mercury by itself, producing studies to support their case, telling us that they are “safe and effective” and that they will cure diabetes, would you march into Walgreen’s and get a shot with your children? I know I wouldn’t!

    The main study cited here (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=190649) is a retrospective study, and can be very misleading. The information is very likely hand-picked, and many factors and data points were likely left out on purpose, to prove a point. I could do a retrospective study with the same information they used and get an entirely different outcome.

  262. Lawrence
    April 7, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    @sara – you do realize that the MMR doesn’t contain Thimerasol & never has, right?

    See, we are open-minded enough to check our facts before we post…….

  263. Lawrence
    April 7, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    And unless you can point out specific problems with the study, as opposed to just assuming there is a problem, you haven’t a leg to stand on.

  264. Lawrence
    April 7, 2014 at 5:33 pm

    @sara – actually, all of the outbreaks that have been tracked started with unvaccinated individuals…..just because the overall population still has a very high level of vaccination, doesn’t mean that there are pockets of un & undervaccinated individuals that can cause the spread of an outbreak…again, you should deal with facts, not anti-vax lies.

  265. Chris
    April 7, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    “Individual freedom is what it is. Measles outbreaks have occurred many times since the vaccine’s introduction, and usually in very highly-vaccinated populations, as the outbreaks in 2013 were as well.”

    Then why were the vast majority who got measles had no history of measles vaccination? From Measles — United States, January 1–August 24, 2013:

    Most cases were in persons who were unvaccinated (131 [82%]) or had unknown vaccination status (15 [9%]). Thirteen (8%) of the patients had been vaccinated, of whom three had received 2 doses of measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. Among 140 U.S. residents who acquired measles, 117 (84%) were unvaccinated, and 11(8%) had unknown vaccination status. Of those who were unvaccinated, 92 (79%) had philosophical objections to vaccination, six (5%) had missed opportunities for vaccination, 15 (13%) occurred among infants aged <12 months who were not eligible for vaccination, and for four (3%) the reason for no vaccination was unknown (Figure 3). Among the 21 U.S resident patients who traveled abroad and were aged ≥6 months, 14 (67%) were unvaccinated, five (24%) had unknown vaccination status, and two had received 1 dose of MMR vaccine.

    “If the government started giving injections of mercury by itself, …”

    How is that even relevant to the MMR vaccine? Now, if you have any real evidence that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, then please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support your claim.

  266. Narad
    April 8, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    sara7venus :
    Individual freedom is what it is.

    And along with that come the facts that you are not entitled to force your individual choice on the public schools and that your employer is free to exercise its individual freedom to tell you to take a hike if you choose not to abide by workplace safety regulations.

    Measles outbreaks have occurred many times since the vaccine’s introduction

    Measles outbreaks didn’t exist before vaccination.

    If you want to use your hatred of a particular religion as the basis for FORCED vaccinations, you are seriously misled.

    Unless you’re claiming that Eagle Mountain is a distinct religion, this is a non sequitur.

    The main study cited here (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=190649) is a retrospective study, and can be very misleading. The information is very likely hand-picked, and many factors and data points were likely left out on purpose, to prove a point.

    There is, you know, a “methods” section, so you should have no trouble identifying specific instances.

    I could do a retrospective study with the same information they used

    I sorely doubt it.

  267. Lawrence
    April 13, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    Once again, nothing but anti-vax talking points.

    1) the Amish do, in fact vaccinate, and they do have an autistic population. Worse for them, due to their limited gene pool, their children suffer from genetic conditions so rare, that outside of the Amish, they didn’t even have names. Child mortality among the Amish is extremely high, so please don’t hold them up as some paragons of health.

    2) Despite the increase in total vaccinations, the number of antigens in the current vaccine schedule is a fraction of what it was in the 1980s.

    Again, please provide actual facts, because up to now, you have none.

  268. lulu
    April 14, 2014 at 2:13 pm

    I just want to point out a very real fact. Every child’s life is important. The end does not justify the means. It is like saying it is ok to sacrifice a child to save others. As long as ONE child gets hurt for the lack of scientific research for vaccines, they should not be given to the public. I’m sure if you were ask today to sacrifice YOUR child to save the rest, you wouldn’t do it. This is the same. There is no REAL proof that vaccines are safe for EVERYONE and there is not even REAL proof that they work properly. Maybe they can save your child from chickenpox, but at what cost? Is he or she gonna have a lifetime of illness because of it? WE DONT KNOW, THEY DONT KNOW, and that’s the fact. Freedom to choose NOT to inject our babies with neurotoxins should never be questioned.

  269. Lawrence
    April 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    @lulu – perhaps you need to do more research:

    http://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

    And this:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Just a small fraction of the research that shows that vaccines are incredibly safe and incredibly effective (the Project Tycho information alone shows over 100 million cases of disease prevented by vaccines).

    Also, we do know that vaccines “aren’t” safe for everyone – like those with compromised immune systems (Cancer Patients, for instance), which means that it behooves the rest of us who can receive vaccines, should – to protect those individuals.

    You also highlight a typical anti-vax stance – the Nirvana or Perfect World Fallacy, wherein you demand perfection….nothing is ever going to be perfect….but, enough is known about vaccines, through the decades of clinical research, trials, post-release surveillance (here and overseas) to be able to get a really good handle on the rate of serious reactions – which occur only in extremely rare cases.

    In the United States alone, more than 1.5 Billion doses of vaccines have been given – with fewer than 3100 people compensated for serious vaccine reactions – that is a safety profile unmatched by pretty much any other drug treatment, medical device, or heck, just about any other invention known to man.

    Heck, car seats are known to injure a small number of children in car accidents – does that mean that we should stop using them?

    It seems like the anti-vax militia are the people willing to sacrifice children to disease…diseases that, by all rights, should be eradicated already, if not for the actions of those against vaccines.

  270. Chris
    April 14, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    lulu: “There is no REAL proof that vaccines are safe for EVERYONE…”

    So what real proof do you have that measles is safe for everyone?

    Please provide us the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles.

    “… and there is not even REAL proof that they work properly”

    Oh, really? The following is census data for the USA of measles incidence during the twentieth century. Please explain what caused the rate of measles incidence in the USA to drop 90% between 1960 and 1970? Provide citations, do not mention deaths, do not mention any other decade, nor any other country. Here is the census data:

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  271. Narad
    April 14, 2014 at 4:59 pm

    lulu :
    Freedom to choose NOT to inject our babies with neurotoxins should never be questioned.

    Just don’t complain about the social consequences, including possibly not being welcome in the public schools.

  272. novalox
    April 15, 2014 at 2:16 am

    @lulu

    You do know that your freedom does not give you the right to infringe on mine or my family’s right not to be put at risk for getting a VPD, right?

  273. DRDAD
    April 15, 2014 at 11:11 am

    “””with fewer than 3100 people compensated for serious vaccine reactions – that is a safety profile unmatched by pretty much any other drug treatment, medical device, or heck, just about any other invention known to man”””
    – When you downplay that risk you sound foolish. Vaccines are extremely complex with repercussions that CAN have serious events, either in the short term or the long term. Are they safe for most people-Probably. No one is telling you to NOT vaccinate yourself. Go ahead. Have fun, then when measles or whooping cough takes it’s natural cyclical nature 5% of the vaccinated population will get it and 15% of the unvaccinated population will get it. And you will BLAME everyone for the outbreak and you will ignore ALL the science that actually points in the direction that many vaccinated people are spreading the disease as well.

    The number is over 3500 per year, and that is cases that are “PROVEN” and we all know that “truth” and “what you can prove in a court of law” are COMPLETELY different things. The compensation since VAERS was implemented is $2,857,926,807.60 <— That's a big number.

  274. DRDAD
    April 15, 2014 at 11:19 am

    novalox :
    @lulu
    You do know that your freedom does not give you the right to infringe on mine or my family’s right not to be put at risk for getting a VPD, right?

    You better let mother nature and cyclical patterns of disease know that you mean business and NOTHING CAN INFRINGE ON YOUR FAMILIES RIGHT TO NEVER GET SICK!! haha

  275. Lawrence
    April 15, 2014 at 11:34 am

    @DRDAD – so what happened to the “cyclical” pattern of Smallpox infections? How about the seasonal outbreaks of Polio? Or better yet, what happened to domestic measles?

    And the Vaccine Court numbers aren’t 3500 per year:

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs

    $2 Billion isn’t a big number compared to the $215 Billion dollars per year paid out for auto-accident claims (especially since $2Bil is spread out over 30 years – which equates to only around 66 Million dollars per year).

    Again, vaccine reactions do happen – they are tracked & the vast majority are minor (soreness at injection site is the most common) and every once in a great while, there is a serious reaction – which is tracked, investigated and if a claim is filed, compensated.

    What you are trying to do is blow these very few reactions well out of proportion, when the vast, overwhelming number of people (hundreds of millions of vaccinated individuals – representing billions of doses of vaccines) suffer no reaction at all.

    History, facts and the Science is on the side of vaccines – you’ve presented nothing to change that.

  276. Chris
    April 15, 2014 at 11:35 am

    DRDAD: “The number is over 3500 per year, and that is cases that are “PROVEN” and we all know that “truth” and “what you can prove in a court of law” are COMPLETELY different things. The compensation since VAERS was implemented is $2,857,926,807.60 <— That's a big number."

    Oh, really? Because I see it is a total of 3540 since 1988, not every year:
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html

    Now, how does that compare with the number of vaccines given in the USA over the last 26 years?

    There are approximately four million children born in the USA each year, which means that those 3500 claims are out of over a hundred million children. If just 80% were fully vaccinated until adulthood with at least 30 jabs, that is about 2.8 billion vaccine doses (a very big number) over the last 26 years. How big is 3500 compared to 2800000000?

    Now where is the PubMed indexed study by a qualified reputable researcher that the MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles. Do not mention any other disease.

  277. Lawrence
    April 15, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    @Chris – those numbers are even more enlightening:

    # of Vaccines given since 2006 – 1,968,399,297 – (that’s a big number)

    # of Vaccine Court Claims since 2006 – 2,363 (that’s a very small number)*

    # of Vaccine Court Claims compensated – 1300 (even smaller number)

    Total percentage: 0.000120066781% (that’s a miniscule #) of total claims compared to vaccinations

    Total percentage: 0.000066043511% (that’s a microscopic #) of total claims paid compared to total vaccinations

    *we would expect that the more serious reactions would result in a Vaccine Court Claim – and with the anti-vax militia pushing “adverse reactions,” as publicly as they can, people do know that the Court exists.

  278. Narad
    April 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    DRDAD :
    The compensation since VAERS was implemented

    This may be asking a bit much, since you didn’t realize the difference between annual and cumulative, but could you try to figure out that VAERS isn’t NVICP?

  279. novalox
    April 15, 2014 at 1:46 pm

    DRDAD :

    novalox :
    @lulu
    You do know that your freedom does not give you the right to infringe on mine or my family’s right not to be put at risk for getting a VPD, right?

    You better let mother nature and cyclical patterns of disease know that you mean business and NOTHING CAN INFRINGE ON YOUR FAMILIES RIGHT TO NEVER GET SICK!! haha

    You do know that vaccines greatly reduce that risk of getting the disease.

    You also do know that there are some in the population who cannot get the vaccine, such as those who are immunocompromised or are undergoing cancer treatment.

    But of course, judging by your pathetic response, as well as your illogical comments and use of childish insult, you don’t understand.

    At least you admit that I am more intelligent that you, so I thank you for that.

  280. Narad
    April 15, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    DRDAD :
    The number is over 3500 per year, and that is cases that are “PROVEN”

    No, it is not. It is claims that were compensated. This includes (1) concessions, (2) settlements, and (3) determinations, which are either (a) non-Table injuries, in which a plausible theory of likely causation must be shown by the preponderance of the evidence, or (b) Table injuries, in which the burden is on HHS to prove that some other factor is probably responsible.

    From 2006 to the present, there have been 139 determinations in which the burden was on the claimant. Not “over 3500.”

  281. Tim
    April 25, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Pro-vaccine people repeatedly appeal to authority, which is the most damning mistake one can make these days. You can’t argue with a slave who loves his master.

    Vaccines are damaging.

    Multiple vaccinations are increasingly damaging, increasingly debilitating.

    There is no 100% safe choice here. If you choose not to vaccinate, you make the choice to suffer a natural disease. If you choose to vaccinate, you make the choice to suffer a less natural and toxic situation. If it’s your child you are deciding for, that child is at the mercy of your decision and others that act accordingly–or not.

    Because neither side can guarantee a 100% safe solution, the war rages on. It’s this wiggle room the master sits in while his slaves guard the doors.

    However, given the choice between a certain combination of repeated injections of toxic material with certain adverse side effects or the possibility of maybe contracting a possibly but highly unlikely deadly disease, it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of cerebral flexing to see that the latter decision is favorable.

    But the slave loves his master. The slave will get his shots.

  282. reissd
    April 25, 2014 at 5:41 pm

    Please provide evidence that “Multiple vaccinations are increasingly damaging, increasingly debilitating.”

    It’s true that nothing is 100% safe, but the risks are not equal: the risks of the natural disease are an order of magnitude larger than those of vaccines. Here is a comparison in an easy to use format: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/D35CD18A3985212ECA2574E2000F9A4F/$File/quick_sideeffects.pdf.

    The difference in magnitude is why the scientific consensus is that the safer choice is to vaccinate, unless a child has a specific contra indication. There is no scientific debate on that.

    It is incorrect to say that vaccines are toxic – the ingredients in vaccines are not toxic in the amounts in vaccines. Here is a helpful discussion of ingredients: http://www.chop.edu/system/galleries/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients.pdf

    It is incorrect to say vaccines have “certain adverse side effects.” Whether the disease is likely to be fatal varies by disease. Rabies – or meningococcal – are not chicken pox. Each carries a risk of death, but the risk varies. At any rate, for each disease we vaccinate against the risk of dying from the disease is an order of magnitude larger than that of dying from the vaccine.

    I think you are confusing relying on evidence with relying on authority. Pro-vaccine people follow the evidence. That’s why they are pro-vaccine.

  283. novalox
    April 25, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    @tim

    [citation needed] for your assertions, since they fly in the face of scientific evidence.

    Your comments fall under the Nirvana fallacy, as well as not realizing the actual doses.

  284. Lawrence
    April 25, 2014 at 6:05 pm

    @Tim – I’ve never met or spoken with anyone who had (or their children had) a bad vaccine reaction…in fact, the only place I ever even hear about them are on notorious anti-vaccine websites, which usually consist of either no evidence at all or stories that defy biologic possibilities.

    You really should get a better gig…..

  285. Chris
    April 25, 2014 at 7:25 pm

    Tim: ” If you choose not to vaccinate, you make the choice to suffer a natural disease. If you choose to vaccinate, you make the choice to suffer a less natural and toxic situation.”

    As a parent of a child who suffered seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease that resulted in a trip by ambulance to the hospital, I need some actual evidence that the diseases are “less toxic” than the vaccines.

    Please provide PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease.

  286. Tim
    April 25, 2014 at 9:45 pm

    You speak of evidence. You speak of science. You ask for proof.

    Yet you know very little of all three.

    First of all, your “science” is not science. Your science is called scientism. What you’re really asking is for me to provide data that coincides with your belief of what data is. Even if I actually wasted my time and provided for you a wealth of data to counter every single piece of your precious scientism, you still would not accept a single ounce of my data. You already have a preconception that won’t be persuaded; therefore, I will not waste my time.

    Instead, I will leave you with a very important point.

    Repeatedly, you pro-vaccination supporters appeal to authority. You fail to actually understand HOW the data was actually obtained. You fail to understand WHO exactly obtained that data–and I mean WHO. You copy and paste your data as dogma, not science. You copy and paste your statistics as if you actually have a clear understanding of the larger context from which that data was pulled from. How much of the social and political, corporate and industrial, background do you even consider in your compilations? I have looked at these websites, these forums, and these so-called objective propaganda mouthpieces, and I have yet to see a slither of genuine full-spectrum analyses.

  287. novalox
    April 25, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    @tim

    Again, where is your evidence? All you have done so far is provide bluster, saying that there is evidence your your assertions but not providing any. You brought the assertions, your provide the evidence. Your continuing bluster and childish refusal to present any actual evidence, as well as picking at semantics while not pointing out anything in the big picture, says a lot about your lack of proof for your viewpoints.

    It seems that all you are doing is saying that because we disagree with you and your extremely narrow viewpoint, we are all wrong, when it fact, the actual science and evidence points to vaccinations being extremely beneficial to society.

    I hate to break it to you, but the real world isn’t just what your opinion is.

    The rest of your post is just more conspiracy theory mongering, You blabber on about COIs and cut-and-paste, yet the regulars here have constantly shown actual proof, a wide variety of sources, from public health organizations, universities, and hospitals.

    Of course, since you believe in the Nirvana fallacy, I guess you will never post here again, since there is always a small chance you will be electrocuted by your computer.

    Again, post some evidence for your viewpoints within 3 posts, or we can all assume that you have been lying to us the entire time and admit that vaccines are beneficial.

  288. Saul Hymes
    April 25, 2014 at 10:19 pm

    As a pediatric infectious disease specialist, I have _every_ awareness of the context of the data and the statistics. The idea that so many anti-vaccine people have is there is some sort of government conspiracy to vaccinate, or a media conspiracy, or both. In fact, many state governments have decided to expand exemptions for children. Shows like The View and Oprah and Katie Couric give anti-vaccine advocates a mouthpiece. Alicia Silverstone and Mayim Bialik write very successful books promoting nonvaccination. The social and political environment gives your side plenty of voice and the opportunity to demonstrate PLENTY of data that vaccines harm or are unnecessary or whichever absurd claim you want to make. And yet, that hasn’t happened because _the data isn’t there_. Not because governments or the media are biased or suppressing it.

    As for the corporate and industrial context? You and your ilk (as long as you are generalizing about pro-vaccine folks let me do the same) seem to think every vaccine study was funded entirely by private companies. You seem to think that every doctor has a vested financial interest in vaccination as a money maker or that we are in the pocket of big pharma. Here is the real situation:

    The academic doctors and researchers who make guidelines and study this are salaried. We are salaried the same amount whether we vaccinate or not. In fact, vaccine reimbursements by insurance companies are so bad and so much below actual cost of many of the vaccines, financially we and EVERY SINGLE PEDIATRIC PRACTICE that takes insurance would probably be better off not vaccinating, not ordering vaccines, and billing for the visits for the diseases that will inevitably follow like measles and pertussis. As for the studies, yes, vaccines are studied by and those studies are sponsored by drug companies. This is true for every pharmaceutical. It is also true that there are many publicly funded studies–the CDC has multiple vaccine safety networks that use public funds to study safety. And there are privately funded studies that are funded through foundations like Gates and others. There is no vast pharma or government conspiracy favoring the data one way or another.

    You claim we know little of any of this? I have yet to see a single specific fact come from you. I have yet to see anything except broad generalities and accusations. Try data instead of bluster. Try reality instead of fallacy. You’d be surprised at what you’ll find.

  289. Saul Hymes
    April 25, 2014 at 10:20 pm

    (that was directed at @tim, not @novalox, in case it was unclear)

  290. Chris
    April 25, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    TIm: “What you’re really asking is for me to provide data that coincides with your belief of what data is.”

    All I am asking for is for you to count. Since this is an article about measles, all you have to do is go through the available medical records and find out which had a higher percentage of seizures: measles or the MMR vaccine.

    Now, over the past 43 years there must have been a couple hundred doses of the MMR given the USA. Since the NVICP was initiated 26 years ago, there should be an accounting of how many cases of seizures. From there you would get the numbers of seizures and divide it by the number of MMR doses. The NVICP statistics show 65,864,745 MMR vaccines given since 2006. Of those 78 were compensated (though the number includes more thing than seizures. So that would 78/65,864,745, or 1.18 E-6… or one out of over 840000. And we really don’t know how many were seizures.

    For the next bit, you’ll have to go into more historical record. But there should be some good hospital records, especially in the databases of the large health maintenance organization. But there should be a record of cases of measles resulting in seizures, especially from the 1990 measles epidemic. Just take the number of seizures from measles and then divide by the total number of measles cases. Fortunately this has been done and is part of this paper: The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review. Though it seems that pneumonia is more common than seizures, but the encephalitis bit is very scary.

    “First of all, your “science” is not science. Your science is called scientism.”

    By the way, your mangling of definitions is very amusing. You should probably get a dictionary, and a basic book on algebra and another on beginning statistics.

  1. March 11, 2014 at 7:26 am
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