Home > Uncategorized > Legal Responsibilities in Choosing Not to Vaccinate

Legal Responsibilities in Choosing Not to Vaccinate

September 12, 2013
This guest post has been written by Dorit Rubinstein Reiss, a passionate vaccine advocate with intimate knowledge of the legal system who writes the blog Before Vaccines and serves as a Professor at University of California Hastings College of the Law.  In a recent article entitled “Compensating the Victims of Failure to Vaccinate:  What are the Options?”, she explores the legal ramifications associated with those that choose not to immunize themselves or their children.  In the post below, she briefly highlights the main points offered in the full article.

Judge using his gavel

A German boy named Micha died last June after several years of agony from a rare but fatal complication of measles called subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE).  While still too young to be vaccinated himself, he contracted measles from an unvaccinated child in a pediatrician’s waiting room. Years later, SSPE erupted. One family’s choice not to vaccinate their child effectively destroyed another family.

In the United States, where health insurance coverage is more limited than in Germany, Micha’s parents could have incurred substantial medical costs on top of their incredible heartache and suffering. The question is, would it be reasonable to hold the unvaccinated parents liable for those costs?

In a recent blog post, Bioethicist Arthur Caplan suggested that in cases similar to Micha’s, the non-vaccinating parents should be held responsible.  He said:

“I think there should be a right … not to vaccinate your child.  But…. if your kid gets the measles…and makes my newborn baby die… shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?”

There are two arguments that can be used to support Caplan’s points and justify tort liability.  The first focuses on compensation for the victims. The medical and scientific consensus is that the risks of vaccinating are significantly smaller than the risks of not vaccinating.  Therefore, those that do not vaccinate are choosing the larger risk: an unreasonable choice. Since the tort of negligence was created specifically to compensate those harmed because of another’s unreasonable choice, the conditions of tort liability apply.

The second argument focuses on preventing externalities observed when parents roll the cost of their decisions onto others.  Several studies have shown that unvaccinated children are at increased risk of vaccine preventable diseases, and therefore more likely to transmit those diseases and cause others harm.  If parents are not held responsible and forced to pay when their unvaccinated child infects another, they will not consider those costs when deciding whether or not to vaccinate. However, assigning liability in these cases will encourage parents to include those costs into their calculation.

Certainly there are some legal challenges to consider here as follows:

No duty to act:

Normally, our legal system does not require people to pay for harms caused by their non-action. For example, if I see a baby drowning in a shallow pool of water and do nothing, I can’t be held legally responsible for the child’s death.  The United States system values personal autonomy, and considers telling people to act as a greater imposition than requiring that if they act, they act carefully. Nonetheless, tort liability means that a parent who does not vaccinate could be liable and there are reasons to think it’s appropriate.

First, the decision not to vaccinate is not typically a passive one. Parents who consciously choose not to vaccinate their children often claim that they’ve done extensive research and actively defend their decision against pressure from doctors and others. This is not a stand-and-watch situation: it’s more of an active choice.

Second, the “no duty to act” rule exists for policy reasons, and has exceptions, also for policy reasons. There are good reasons to create such an exception here. We should usually respect parental medical choices for children, unless they are not in the best interest of the child or can negatively impact others not actively involved in making that decision.   For example, courts imposed liability when parents did not give ADHD medication to a child, and that child hurt someone else and they ruled that a TB patient that refuses treatment may be involuntary committed to protect others.  The courts have demonstrated that when your right to refuse treatment affects others, it can come with a price.

Causation:

To win their case, plaintiffs have to show that, more likely than not, the defendant caused their harm. They do not need to prove this with absolute certainty or completely rule out other causes.  There are almost always other possible causes, and if the law were to require absolute certainty, plaintiffs would lose even in cases where the defendant was very likely to have caused the harm. In some cases it’s impossible to prove who caused the harm to the plaintiff. In the case of suffering with a preventable disease, it may be impossible to prove causation, such as if there was an outbreak of pertussis in a community and the plaintiff was a ten-year old who went out in public a lot.  But if an unvaccinated child traveling abroad contracts measles and upon return introduces that disease into a previously uninfected community, the disease can often be traced to an originating patient.   Therefore, the ability to prove causation will have a large impact on the ruling in each specific case.

There are several common counter arguments to consider in discussing the legal liability of choosing not to vaccinate.   For instance:

Why single out unvaccinated children? What if a child is infected by a vaccinated child? To explain this, it’s best to understand that our system does not impose liability just because harm happens. We impose liability when someone made an unreasonable choice and that choice caused harm. In the case of preventable diseases, if parents vaccinated their child and took a reasonable precaution than there was no purposeful negligence, even if they were unlucky and the precaution failed.  On the other hand, a non-vaccinating parent who chose not to take the precaution may be deemed negligent.  

What about compensation to children who may be injured by a vaccine, why can’t they sue? The fact is that there is already a no-fault compensation system, known as the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which is available to children who have suffered rare cases of vaccine injury. The argument remains that if we are compensating children injured by the choice to vaccinate, why are we not compensating those injured by the choice to not vaccinate? 

What if the unvaccinated individual had obtained a school immunization exemption? School immunization requirements are created by legislatures, based on a desire to prevent outbreaks.  The existing exemption policies represent a community’s choice to incur a certain level of risk.   But the state’s choice to allow some children to attend schools, even if they aren’t vaccinated as required, should not deprive  families from seeking  compensation for specific harm or injury due to negligence from those who seek special permission not to adhere to the law. In closing, I would like to state that personal autonomy is important. I would not normally support criminal sanctions against parents who choose not to vaccinate (it might be different if a parent directly put a child a risk by that choice, e.g. refusing a rabies vaccine after a child was bitten by an unvaccinated animal). But autonomy should be accompanied by responsibility. If you choose to reject expert opinion and believe you know more than the majority of doctors, scientists, and health officials, you should not roll the costs of that choice onto others. The legal system can, and should, hold those responsible for harm if it is determined that their actions led to another person’s suffering.

Let us know your opinions by participating in this online poll and commenting below:

For more discussion on this topic consider the following: 

Harvard Law Bill Of Health Guest Post: No liability for failure to vaccinate? The case has not been made: A Response to Mary Holland by Dorit Rubinstein Reiss, LLB, Ph.D.

Voices for Vaccine’s Member Call: Vaccine Refusal and the Law, Wednesday, September 18th, 12 noon Eastern/9 am Pacific.  Dorit Reiss and Director of the California Immunization Coalition, Catherine Flores Martin, will speak to members about the legal aspects of vaccine refusal.  To join the call email info@voiceforvaccines.org.

  1. kathleen
    September 12, 2013 at 9:45 am

    so if I get a cold and you get the cold after I do, can you sue for that too? how could you possibly prove without a reasonable doubt that the illness you or a family member gets was in fact from a certain person when the germs are allegedly all over…this will never hold up in court…no way to prove it and if vaccines work and you get the vaccine, and then get the disease, you should be suing the drug company or doctor not a random person

  2. My3sons
    September 12, 2013 at 9:46 am

    OK if drug companies and doctors can’t be sued for adverse reactions (usually stating the reaction can’t be proven to have been caused by the vaccine)… end of argument.

    No definitive way to prove who a virus was contracted from ( just as doctors and drug companies do), e.g. a recently vaccinated, a carrier showing no symptoms, or someone with the actual symptomatic virus.

    “According to the Medical Director of Merck who manufactures the MMR vaccine: “The attenuated viruses in MMR can occasionally and to a limited extent be shed from a vaccinated individual into the environment. You would expect this of any virus or bacterium that infected a human body. The number of vaccinated individuals that do shed the virus is quite small but it definitely does occur, and so as a consequence of that there is a small probability that unvaccinated individuals could pick up some form of shed vaccine virus…”

    According to a study published in the British Medical Journal, 4 July 1987 which recommends that immunocompromised children should be kept away from MMR vaccinated children for two weeks after vaccination due to the excretion of the virus. It is also an acknowledged fact that some people have caught the paralytic polio after coming into contact with the feces of children who had been recently vaccinated with the live polio vaccine.”

    But America can always use another reason to sue someone in our overly litigious society.

    P.S. To all the usual suspects, don’t attack me I won’t be responding. Talk amongst yourselves.

  3. kathleen
    September 12, 2013 at 9:46 am

    some vaccines shed and thus contaminate other people…so if you get a vaccine and then shed that virus to another, can that person sue you from transferring a virus that you got from the unwise decision to vaccinate?? it will go both ways….

  4. Amanda
    September 12, 2013 at 9:48 am

    I chose not to take my new born to a family get-to-gether because the other children in my extended family are not vaccinated. My new born had not been vaccinated yet. If a person chooses to not vaccinate, then they are choosing the consequences. Period.
    Believe me, they know their actions could have consequences and even know their kids could die if they visited other countries, got on an airplane with an infected foreigner, etc. So yes, totally on the parent who refuses. UNLESS, the child that they didn’t vaccinate has medical issues and can’t/shouldn’t be vaccinated.

  5. September 12, 2013 at 9:54 am

    While I see the merit in what this article is trying to do, help promote vaccination, I really don’t see something like this ever holding up in court unfortunately.

  6. September 12, 2013 at 9:57 am

    Kathleen: “some vaccines shed and thus contaminate other people”

    Citation needed.

  7. September 12, 2013 at 10:04 am

    Fabulous post. The anti-vaccine movement wants to base its message on freedom of choice. Right now, in the US, they have enormous freedom to choose not to vaccinate in most places. However, as I teach my children, every choice has a consequence. The choice not to vaccinate has many negative consequences, from risking serious illness to making medical care more complicated. Possible liability when harming others with disease is yet another consequence. If they want the choice, they need to acknowledge that they also choose the consequence.

  8. September 12, 2013 at 10:21 am

    wow kathleen, congrats on being the first post, and such a shining example of ignorance for the entire world to see!!!!

  9. D
    September 12, 2013 at 10:40 am

    The measles vaccines is grown on an aborted fetal cell line. As a Christian, I feel this is not glorifying to God and I refuse to put this in my child’s body (same issue with chicken pox and hep b vaccines). When we, as parents, are no longer able to choose what we put in our children’s bodies without worrying about legal recourse, there is a BIG problem.

  10. September 12, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Way to instill unwarranted fear, Ms. Vara. I would love to see one of these articles that dares to fulfill informed consent; that provides the history of MMR damage that has been compensated by the national vaccine court, or the serious adverse reactions listed on the vaccine insert, or the history of associated injuries, including death, that have been reported to the CDC, or the study once quoted by JAMA, that found that only 1% of serious adverse reactions even get reported.

    The supposed herd is made up of individuals. It’s your responsibility to provide those individuals – your readers – the information, out of honesty, and respect for them.

  11. DB
    September 12, 2013 at 11:22 am

    D :
    The measles vaccines is grown on an aborted fetal cell line. As a Christian, I feel this is not glorifying to God and I refuse to put this in my child’s body (same issue with chicken pox and hep b vaccines).

    I hope you would refuse an organ donation from a murder victim, as well. Otherwise, you look like a hypocrite. Except that refusing organ donation doesn’t put my newborn at risk. Refusing MMR and then participating in normal society does. Those abortions weren’t done to produce cells for vaccine research and development. They were selected after the fact. BTW, it’s the Hep A vaccine, not B, that was developed from one of those cell lines.

    Your child is an individual with rights. You putting them in physical danger to absolve your spiritual conscience doesn’t jive. If they die or another child dies because of your choice, you are just as guilty, I think more so, than the two women who aborted a fetus 40+ years ago. Did you know rubella causes natural abortions in pregnant women? There’s another possible sin to add to your ever growing list. At a minimum, don’t take your unvaccinated kids to public schools, playgrounds, stores, movie theaters, airplanes, etc. If you do, you could be actively and knowingly spread a deadly, maiming virus.

  12. September 12, 2013 at 11:37 am

    D :
    The measles vaccines is grown on an aborted fetal cell line. As a Christian, I feel this is not glorifying to God and I refuse to put this in my child’s body (same issue with chicken pox and hep b vaccines). When we, as parents, are no longer able to choose what we put in our children’s bodies without worrying about legal recourse, there is a BIG problem.

    D- While it’s true that a fetal cell line is involved with the certain vaccines, it’s clear you need to research this issue in depth if it’s preventing you from vaccinating your children. Much like how vegeatables are grown in dirt yet do not contain it, the vaccines are purified and contain no fetal cells. (http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines)

    Without knowing more information on your religion, the major Christian sects, while aware of the source of vaccines advocate for their followers to be vaccinated. For example the Catholic Church advocates for new methods and source of the vaccines, but in the meantime states that not vaccinating and spreading the diseases (which some can cause miscarriages and death) is more of a sin (http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion).

    Despite what you might have read, even the Vatican supports the use of vaccines that have a tangential relationship to abortion, as long as no alternative vaccines are available.

  13. September 12, 2013 at 11:41 am

    Mr. Siegel (the creator of this silly graph, where “girls” are obviously not part of the “Gen’l Population”): “Way to instill unwarranted fear, Ms. Vara.”

    Well that confirms my suspicions on why some comments are totally disconnected from what was written. You guys have not read the article. The hint is that it was not written by Christine Vara (read the bolded paragraph under her name).

  14. Jackie
    September 12, 2013 at 11:51 am

    1 – How do you PROVE where the virus or bacteria was picked up from? 2 – If 2 children (one vaccinated and one not vaccinated) BOTH got sick from a child that was vaccinated and shed the illness to them, does the unvaccinated child’s parents get sued and not the vaccinated? I get your logic, but it’s flawed. What happens when a child’s titers are checked for immunity from the MMR and they just don’t take. So they get several more injections and the titers are still at zero? How many injections containing mercury, formaldehyde, and aluminum need to be taken before one concludes “Hey this shit just doesn’t work?” I think the pro/anti vax crusades need to join together and get a new target – safer vaccines.

  15. September 12, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Several people here asked about how you show causation, how you prove who the virus came from. Sometimes it won’t be possible – just like sometimes you don’t know what caused a car accident – and then the case would fail. But sometimes you can – like in the San Diego measles outbreak, that was traced to an unvaccinated child. The Caplan article linked to in the post addresses this in detail. It would probably be a combination of timing and contacts and laboratory analysis.
    To give you another example, in Stubbs v. City of Rochester (http://www.lawnix.com/cases/stubbs-rochester.html), Mr. Stubbs sued the city claiming that its contaminated suers caused his typhoid. Of course there were other possible causes of typhoid, like infected people; but he provided enough evidence that the city’s behavior was a more likely cause than others, and that was enough to get the case to the jury, which can decide for plaintiff. The standard is not absolute proof: it’s whether it’s more likely than not that the unvaccinated child caused the harm, and whether that cause is more likely than others.

  16. reissd
    September 12, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    The other question, about shedding: first, to remind you, many vaccines don’t shed – those that don’t have live viruses, and the MMR generally. Even for vaccines where it happens – chicken pox, rotavirus – shedding is very rare. Plaintiff suing for being infected by shedding would have to show that defendant was unreasonable. Just getting vaccinated would not work: with the medical establishment behind it, it’s unlikely to be found unreasonable. But if, for example, a parent brought a child recently vaccinated with chicken pox who had visible lesions into close contact with an immunosuppressed child, there may be a case.

  17. reissd
    September 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm

    “While I see the merit in what this article is trying to do, help promote vaccination, I really don’t see something like this ever holding up in court unfortunately.” – Actually, Mike, I don’t see this as promoting vaccination; I wrote an article supporting liability because I worry about the injured family not being compensated. And I do think it’s a viable claim.

  18. September 12, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Dorit Reiss:

    But sometimes you can – like in the San Diego measles outbreak, that was traced to an unvaccinated child.

    The wild type measles has certain variations, not found in the vaccine virus. For instance, Implications of a 2005 Measles Outbreak in Indiana for Sustained Elimination of Measles in the United States says:

    All molecular sequences from the outbreak were identical, and all were members of genotype D4, which is endemic in Romania, as well as in other areas of Eastern Europe, the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East, and Eastern Africa.18 A representative sequence from the outbreak, MVs/Indiana.USA/23.05 [D4] (GenBank accession number DQ355989), was most closely related to sequences obtained from contemporary measles viruses isolated from patients in Romania.

  19. September 12, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “Why single out unvaccinated children? What if a child is infected by a vaccinated child? To explain this, it’s best to understand that our system does not impose liability just because harm happens. We impose liability when someone made an unreasonable choice and that choice caused harm. In the case of preventable diseases, if parents vaccinated their child and took a reasonable precaution than there was no purposeful negligence, even if they were unlucky and the precaution failed. On the other hand, a non-vaccinating parent who chose not to take the precaution may be deemed negligent.”

    This would answer both Kathleen’s and Jackie’s questions. The point is not just that one person causes harm to another; it’s that the person causing harm intentionally did not take the necessary precaution to prevent that harm. I know that’s not what you would prefer to see, but the fact is, vaccination reduces the risk of harm both for the vaccinated and for those around him. Refusal to vaccinate increases that risk for everyone, and the deliberate choice to do that puts a responsibility on those making that choice.

  20. September 12, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    The issue of the Vaccine Court is covered very well here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/12/the-canary-party-and-bob-schneider-versus-the-vaccine-court-guess-who-wins/

    Given that Barbara Loe Fisher was instrumental in creating the Vaccine Court as a means to enable those who suffer from legitimate harm from vaccines (and even amended later to include Table Injuries for just about automatic compensation), I think the anti-vax groups are barking up the wrong tree.

    As for being able to sue, in this case, the standard of evidence should be particularly high – although with current DNA technology and methods, it is a fairly simple process to determine what strain is involved & could be traced back to its source…..

    There is a bit of irony here, that people who suffer from legitimate harm from vaccines have a means (the Vaccine Court) to be compensated, but those who are harmed in an outbreak have no means for holding those accountable or being compensated.

  21. dingo199
    September 12, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    Strain typing of viruses is quite easily performed (assuming someone can pay!)
    It is quite normal for molecular DNA technology to be used in court cases for this reason (eg transmission of HIV).
    I assume the same would apply to these viruses. The question might arise in court that there could be more than one source of the infection – that assessment would rely on the history of contact /epidemiology

  22. Lynn
    September 12, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    But you can’t force anyone to take a vaccine because they are “unavoidably unsafe, ” in the words of the Supreme Court. That means that your own health is worth as much as that of the person getting a disease from the unvaccinated (or vaccinated) person. The contemporary international standard is free and informed consent for all medical intervention. If the risk is acceptable to you, fine, but if it’s not, no one has the right to force you to take it.

  23. Lynn
    September 12, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    Amanda,
    What if the child has family members who have neurological or autoimmune conditions that increase his risk of vaccine reaction, and his parents don’t care to find out whether or not he’s really going to react? Does he have to have problematic genes on both sides of the family? Can he be forced if he only has one grandmother with diabetes? What if someone else just fears the reactions period? With tens of thousands of cases of vaccine reaction reported to the VAERS, who has the right to drag that person and his child kicking and screaming to plunge the needle into them? And if they react, then what? If he has an anaphylactic reaction and dies on the spot, what are you going to say? Oops? I guess he was right to do everything in his power to reject the vaccine? Too late now!

  24. Lynn
    September 12, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    My3Sons,
    I agree with you!

  25. dingo199
    September 12, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    PS: Passing shed virus onto another person is not a problem unless you have something like varicella vaccine which gets into a severely immunosuppressed, infection naive person (which would be very unusual).
    Passing on vaccine strain virus to your friends and contacts merely immunises them for free!

    However, if a person acquires a virulent, wild strain because they had declined vaccination for no good reason (and then passes on this infection to another who gets ill or dies), then that is a pretty irresponsible and eminently and preventable act of omission.

    This fits the definition of “reckless endangerment” to a tee.

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reckless-endangerment/

  26. Lynn
    September 12, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    I agree with you too, Kathleen, the MMR, varicella, and Flumist vaccines are all live virus (weakened, not killed), and can sometimes be spread to others and make them ill. Can we sue those vaccinated people for being so selfish as to want to avoid disease themselves but are all right with infecting others?

  27. Lynn
    September 12, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    I agree with you too, Shawn!

  28. dingo199
    September 12, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    Lynn :
    But you can’t force anyone to take a vaccine because they are “unavoidably unsafe, ” in the words of the Supreme Court. That means that your own health is worth as much as that of the person getting a disease from the unvaccinated (or vaccinated) person. The contemporary international standard is free and informed consent for all medical intervention. If the risk is acceptable to you, fine, but if it’s not, no one has the right to force you to take it.

    The courts will look at the cases on an individual basis, and apportion culpability if there is any. Valid reasons for vaccine refusal would be highly unlikely to reach that stage.

    PS The “unavoidably unsafe” phrase when seen in its original context relating to vaccines merely described how everything is “unavoidably unsafe” (eg breathing air, walking etc), and how nothing can be 100% safe.

  29. dingo199
    September 12, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Lynn :
    I agree with you too, Kathleen, the MMR, varicella, and Flumist vaccines are all live virus (weakened, not killed), and can sometimes be spread to others and make them ill. Can we sue those vaccinated people for being so selfish as to want to avoid disease themselves but are all right with infecting others?

    Why not? Give it a go. Let the courts decide.
    After all, they are never wrong!

  30. dingo199
    September 12, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    kathleen :
    so if I get a cold and you get the cold after I do, can you sue for that too?

    In the UK a patient tried to sue her doctor for giving her a cold, so yes this could feasibly happen.

  31. reissd
    September 12, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    “But you can’t force anyone to take a vaccine because they are “unavoidably unsafe, ” in the words of the Supreme Court.” Actually, what the majority of the Supreme Court said in Bruesewitz v. Wyeth said on this issue is: “Whatever consistent judicial gloss that comment may have been given in 1986, there is no reason to believe that §300aa–22(b)(1) was invoking it. The comment creates a special category of “unavoidably unsafe products,” while the statute refers to “side effects that were unavoidable.” That the latter uses the adjective “unavoidable” and the former the adverb “unavoidably” does not establish that Congress had comment k in mind. “Unavoidable” is hardly a rarely used word.” http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf. In other words, the court did not apply the “unavoidably unsafe” terminology to the act. And as Dingo199 pointed out, the term does not mean a product is super dangerous – for example, cars are not “unavoidably unsafe”. In fact, the term means that a product carries real benefits that far outweigh it’s risk. Though – like every product, as Dingo said – it carries risks, its benefits are so large that the courts do not apply strict liability to that product, and require, instead, that plaintiff show the manufacturer was negligent to recover.

  32. September 12, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    @Lynn – and please give us some citations where it was proven that a “vaccinated” individual infected another via shedding…….

  33. September 12, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Here’s a source from a Christian, who is also a scientist,on why the use of human cell lines, derived from two abortions decades ago, is ethical.

    http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion

  34. September 12, 2013 at 7:56 pm
  35. Meredith
    September 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Lawrence,
    Your link went to an overhyped article about all the measles cases this year, but the worst the doctor interviewed could say was that measles complications were not to be toyed with and were not “altogether rare.” This means that they are pretty rare. He said 3 in a thousand with measles died of it, but I know you would be the first to clarify that the rate usually quoted is one in a thousand, but in real life, the rate is more like one in ten thousand. No fatalities in the US from measles in over twenty years, despite hundreds of cases.

  36. Olivia Jennings
    September 13, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    As far as I know, you are not breaking any laws by not being vaccinated, so how could that be held as negligence? If it were a law that I be vaccinated and I weren’t, maybe that would be a different story.

    Also, what about all of the adults that are not caught up and/or staying up with all of their boosters?

  37. September 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    @Meredith – we’ve been very lucky…much luckier than these people from France:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=23982057

    Severe Measles Infection: The Spectrum of Disease in 36 Critically Ill Adult Patients.

    As to the general severity of measles (upon and beyond the increased chance of death):

    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

    Including the 1 in 1000 cases where the Measles leads to encephalitis – which can cause serious harm…..why are you so pro-disease?

  38. September 13, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @Olivia – to prove negligence, you don’t have to prove that someone was breaking the law – only acting in a manner which lead to the result……MMR confers life-long immunity, so you can throw that argument out the window…and all recent outbreaks have been the result of unvaccinated individuals as Patient Zero.

    If, through someone’s inaction (or lack of vaccination) they created an outbreak that ultimately harmed a large number of people, don’t you think they should be held accountable?

    How about those individuals who spread HIV – do you give them a pass too?

  39. September 13, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Meredith: “This means that they are pretty rare.”

    Well, is one out about ten needing hospital care mostly because of pneumonia “pretty rare”?

    See The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review:

    In recent years, pneumonia was present in 9% of children <5 years old with measles in the United States (table 2), in 0%–8% of cases during outbreaks [82—87], and in 49%–57% of adults [88, 89].

    Now, do please tell us how the complications from measles is more more than those from the MMR vaccine. Provide us the PubMed indexed study from a qualified reputable researcher showing there is more harm from the MMR vaccine than from measles. Show us the relative risk.

  40. steph
    September 14, 2013 at 3:12 am

    The act of vaccinating does not put a magic bubble up around a child. They still carry the illness!

  41. Doreen
    September 14, 2013 at 7:26 am

    If immunization and vaccines were safe, parents wouldn’t have a problem. This day & age the vaccines are causing more harm, disease and deaths. DO YOUR RESEARCH and know what is in the vaccines. The threat of filing suit is nothing more than a scare tactic, a bully tactic. If the legal system want to do something beneficial for humanity, then get rid of MONSANTO and companies like them, they are responsible for poisoning the earth and everything on it. Stop government and corporations from dumping toxic chemtrails in our skies that float down. Stop mad scientist from putting all kinds of crap that isn’t needed in vaccines. I’m sick of corporations selling their toxic waste or our government using tax dollars to buy it and then put it in our drinking water, foods, vaccines, ETC. ETC ETC

  42. September 14, 2013 at 7:52 am

    @Steph – yeah, not true.

    Doreen – I think people can judge for themselves on the validity of your post, nothing to add here on my end (you can’t help crazy.)

  43. emmy
    September 14, 2013 at 8:35 am

    So, it’s okay though, for a vaccine to destroy a family, via death in a healthy baby that was just injected with all those foreign chemicals, — is that what your’e saying? As long as their child ‘took one for the herd’, they should feel blessed their child didn’t succomb to disease, but instead a faulty vaccine program, that is NOT a one-size-fits-all? Oh yes, then the parents get to jump through thousands of hoops in the circus known as Vaccine Court?

  44. September 14, 2013 at 9:45 am

    @Emmy – Have you ever been involved in Civil Litigation? If you think the Vaccine Court is “Thousands of Hoops” you obviously have no idea how the “non-adversarial” system in the Court works….compared to regular Civil Litigation where these parents would be against the entire weight of the legal process that could be put against them (not to mention the enhanced burden of proof).

    Vaccine reactions do occur, but they occur in far fewer instances than the anti-vax groups claim & the vast majority of them (by magnitudes or more) are both benign and short-lived….that’s what the evidence says, what do you have?

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    Try arguing with actual evidence, instead of emotion.

  45. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:01 am

    @Emmy: a child is not vaccinated to “take one for the herd” – a child is vaccinated first and foremost to protect that child; herd immunity is an additional benefit, and also protects that child. As Lawrence pointed out, that child can then take advantage of a no-fault program with a lot of breaks for the plaintiffs compared to the regular courts. http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-national-vaccine-compensation.html

  46. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:02 am

    “That child can now” referred to in the rare – very rare – cases that the child actually has a vaccine injury. Here is a calculation of the numbers compensated by the court compared to vaccine doses: http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/03/05/a-look-at-the-numbers-in-vaccine-reactions/.
    In contrast, what’s the remedy for a child who was injured because another family decided not to vaccinate?

  47. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:04 am

    “The act of vaccinating does not put a magic bubble up around a child. ” So far, so true. Vaccination is not 100% effective. Neither is a car seat. Both substantially reduce the risks of the harm, but are not a magic bubble, the child can still get hurt, and if a child gets an infectious disease, that child could pass it to another. But both the car seat and the vaccine are reasonable, easy to use precautions that would be effective in the majority of cases. Not taking a reasonable precaution is the essence of negligence.

  48. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:18 am

    @Olivia: negligence is not about breaking the law. The question in negligence is did you act unreasonably, and did unreasonable actions cause the harm. Acting legally is not necessarily acting reasonably. To give you a few examples, it may be perfectly legal not to cover holes on a construction site, but that does not make it reasonable; it may be perfectly legal to keep a hay stack near your neighbor’s cottages, but if it creates a risk of fire, that might be unreasonable; it may be perfectly legal not to have a receiving radio on your ship, but it may be unreasonable if it prevents you hearing about a storm; it may be legal for a hotel to not have an alarm in the rooms, but it may be unreasonable in a high crime area if there were attacks on guests in the past. ItThis is just a random set of examples.

  49. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    When I can sue unvaccinated adults.

    When I can sue a vaccinated child or adult for shedding after receiving live viral and bacterial vaccines and I get the very illness they were vaccinated for – supposedly to protect themselves and others.

    When I can sue vaccine manufactures in open court with a jury of my peers for vaccine injury.

    Then we can talk.

  50. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Watch this! The AutismOne & Generation Rescue 2013 Congressional Panel

  51. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    And watch this! Do Vaccines Cause Autism?

  52. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    Many Md’s are able to think for themselves after years on indoctrination in med schools build by pharmaceutical companies using text books published by Merck. They don’t fall for the fear mongering propaganda and herd immunity hoax.

  53. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:33 pm
  54. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    Measles Vaccines Part I; Ineffectiveness of Vaccination and Unintended Consequences. ~ by Dr Viera Scheibner – See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/01/18/the-ineffectiveness-of-measles-vaccines-and-other-unintended-consequences-by-dr-viera-scheibner-phd/#sthash.bWyXdFyy.dpuf

  55. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    “Herd Immunity.” The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination, Suzanne Humphries, MD – See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/#sthash.2b6A7zlP.dpuf

  56. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    “Anti-vaccine movement causes the worst whooping cough epidemic in 70 years”- Oh Really??? – See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/08/20/anti-vaccine-movement-causes-the-worst-whooping-cough-epidemic-in-70-years-oh-really/#sthash.1mqIl6zu.dpuf

  57. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Dr. Brian Hooker PhD rebuttal to CDC study. Can We Trust the CDC Claim that There is No Link Between Vaccines and Autism? http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/can-we-trust-the-cdc-claim-that-there-is-no-link-between-vaccines-and-autism/

  58. September 14, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    MadMamaBear:

    When I can sue a vaccinated child or adult for shedding after receiving live viral and bacterial vaccines and I get the very illness they were vaccinated for – supposedly to protect themselves and others.

    Citation needed that this is a common occurence. And make sure it is a real scientific citation, and not a youtube video or a random website. Though, you might actually start by reading the above article and some of the contents where much of what spammed here was already dealt with.

    Since I have a child who was injured by an actual disease before the vaccine was available, I did not have the recourse to go to NVICP.

    Which is why I want you, MadMamaBear, to provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases. For instance, a study that shows the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

    For qualified, the researcher must have an appropriate education like biology, medicine, etc. Those who would not be qualified would be business majors, lawyers, and geologists (like Scheibner). And by reputable, they would not have had their license to practice medicine legally revoked, or who sell consults by phone.

  59. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    What is the CDC/HHS hiding? CDC has stalled for 8 years responding to
    FOIA – The CDC Has Known All Along How Dangerous Vaccines Are – And Has Covered It Up

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/the-cdc-has-known-all-along-how-dangerous-vaccines-are-and-has-covered-it-up/

  60. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Take Action: Ask Congress to Compel the CDC to Release OUR Information. Ignoring Freedom of Information Requests for EIGHT years

    Please click on the link below to send an email to your members of Congress requesting their help in making the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) obey the law. Dr. Brian Hooker, Ph. D., a biochemist and father of a child diagnosed with autism, has been waiting for more than eight years for documents requested from the CDC under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

    http://capwiz.com/a-champ/issues/alert/?alertid=62853611&queueid=%5Bcapwiz%3Aqueue_id%5D

    The Freedom of Information Act requires federal agencies to provide requested documents and information to the public. These documents belong to the people of the United States and were created using our tax dollars. In recent years the federal government has flagrantly ignored the FOIA. The requested documents have nothing to do national security, they concern the details of autism studies paid for with your tax dollars.

    Dr. Hooker has in the past obtained records from the CDC that showed that several of their studies claiming no correlation between vaccines and autism were rejected by prestigious medical journals for lack of rigor and scientific flaws. He also has obtained documents that show the CDC withheld information when their own studies showed that there is a correlation between vaccines and autism.

    After eight years a reasonable question must be, “What is the CDC trying to hide?” But we will not see this information unless we make the CDC give it up.

    Requests under the Freedom of Information are given identifying numbers. These are the numbers for Dr. Hooker’s requests:
    #05-0435, #05-0499, #05-0674, #05-0680, #05-0222, #05-0942, #05-0924, #10-00555, #10-00556, #10-00579, #10-00696, #10-00697, #11-00295, #11-00368, #11-00438, #11-00439, #11-00440, #11-00451, #11-00706, #13-00172, #13-00200, #13-00203, #13-00235, #13-00271.

    Please share this message with friends and family and please post to Facebook and other social networks. And if you support the work of the Autism Action Network please like us on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Autism-Action-Network/162315170489749

  61. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    “When I can sue unvaccinated adults.
    When I can sue a vaccinated child or adult for shedding after receiving live viral and bacterial vaccines and I get the very illness they were vaccinated for – supposedly to protect themselves and others.” You may be able to sue unvaccinated if you made a good case that they were negligent in some way. It’s already been discussed in this thread how rare shedding is, and how less likely a vaccinated child is to transmit the disease compared to the risk from the wild virus. And as for your last example – that too has been addressed above, but your claims about NVICP, and the completely inaccurate Canary Party Video were addressed here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/12/the-canary-party-and-bob-schneider-versus-the-vaccine-court-guess-who-wins/

    http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-national-vaccine-compensation.html

  62. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    “While still too young to be vaccinated himself, he contracted measles from an unvaccinated child in a pediatrician’s waiting room. Years later, SSPE erupted. One family’s choice not to vaccinate their child effectively destroyed another family.”

    Where is the proof that this is where his measles was contracted? “Years later?” This premise is ridiculous and flies in the face of the well worn argument you folks use regarding “correlation not equaling causation.” This is really a looong stretch.

  63. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    The CDC responded to Mr. Hooker’s FOIA request. The fact that he thinks they have not done enough is now being examined in the courts. So far, his claims have not been accepted by any court. There is no evidence of non-compliance from CDC.

  64. Zach
    September 14, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    Citation for shedding: I hope the Reuters news agency is ligitimate enough. http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/18/us-smallpox-boy-idUSN1744524120070518

  65. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Oh, shedding is “rare?” Just as adverse vaccine reactions, autism, mitochondrial disorder, and a host of other illnesses once were and now we know otherwise? Try again.

  66. Zach
    September 14, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    Dr. Blaylock (world renown neurosurgeon):
    “When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given.

    What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. At least 50 percent of the population has been unprotected for decades.

    If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95 percent. Yet we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50 percent or less of the population having vaccine protection.

    Herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades, and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations”.

  67. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    “Where is the proof that this is where his measles was contracted? “Years later?” This premise is ridiculous and flies in the face of the well worn argument you folks use regarding “correlation not equaling causation.” This is really a looong stretch.
    Let me introduce you to the nasty measles complication called SSPE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002392/. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-8749.2010.03717.x/asset/j.1469-8749.2010.03717.x.pdf;jsessionid=0676A37200EFD5C278D184DDDB3E5B3A.d03t04?v=1&t=hll68bya&s=d3d512d22f480df6f82bd04324f01459f1992015.

    As explained in the later article, “he clinical manifestations occur, on average, 6 years after measles virus infection.” SSPE is incurable. It destroys the brain slowly. As to Micha’s story – follow the links in the post.

  68. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    @Zach and @turkey and gravy – do you have any evidence that shedding is not rare? One example shows that the varicella, chicken pox vaccine, can shed; nobody denied that. But it’s rare. Here is from the Pink Book: “Available data suggest that transmission of varicella vaccine virus is a rare event. Instances of suspected secondary transmission of vaccine virus have been reported, but in few instances has the secondary clinical illness been shown to be caused by vaccine virus. ” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/varicella.pdf

  69. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    The length of immunity from the vaccine varies. The MMR, for example, provides long term, probably life-long immunity: http://infectiousdiseases.about.com/od/prevention/a/MMR_vaccine.htm. So Dr. Blaylock’s statement is already inaccurate. When immunity does wane – like with the pertussis acellular vaccine, where immunity fades quicker than scientists expected, we do see outbreaks.

  70. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    “Thus, they must be grown in human cells.” Yes, we know this, that is the point and no, it is not a “lie” as he suggested.

    This is simply his opinion and it does not mean it is “ethical” for those who believe otherwise. And since you folks gave up the argument of calling the parents who sign religious vaccine waivers “liars,” now you have to come up with this BS.

    lizditz :
    Here’s a source from a Christian, who is also a scientist,on why the use of human cell lines, derived from two abortions decades ago, is ethical.
    http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion

  71. September 14, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Zach: ” I hope the Reuters news agency is ligitimate enough.”

    No. And exactly how is that vaccine on the American pediatric schedule? Has your pediatrician suggested your kids get a smallpox vaccine?

    In other news reports the military father of the child did not follow post vaccine instructions for vaccinia (which is a form of cow pox).

    MadMamaBear: “Take Action:”

    You and your friends can start by actually reading the article and comments! How can we take you seriously when you repeat stuff that has already been addressed and answered on this very page.

    In addition, the text that is in a different color (in this case blue) are URL links. Hover your mouse over them until the little arrow turns into a hand, and then click on it. It will then take you to that further information.

  72. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    “Anti-vaccination advocates play on a person’s proper moral indignation about abortion, claiming that if a person gets vaccinated, he or she is supporting the abortion industry.”

    This is not true. This man does not write or sound like a “Christian” to me.

  73. September 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    turkey and gravy:

    This is simply his opinion and it does not mean it is “ethical” for those who believe otherwise.

    Is it ethical for your unvaccinated child to infect a pregnant woman whose immunity from rubella never took? Do you care if your child gives chicken pox to a pregnant woman?

    How is that moral? Explain to me why you have more regard to one fetus who was legally aborted (possibly due to mother’s rubella infection) fifty years ago, and not to those who are now living and future babies.

  74. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Chris, lesson to me to actually follow the link and not just read it quickly. I read “chickenpox” instead of smallpox.

  75. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    If it can happen once, then the prevalence can’t be suggested as “rare” based only on “available data.” Another reason that the “safety” of vaccines is not proven.

    reissd :
    @Zach and @turkey and gravy – do you have any evidence that shedding is not rare? One example shows that the varicella, chicken pox vaccine, can shed; nobody denied that. But it’s rare. Here is from the Pink Book: “Available data suggest that transmission of varicella vaccine virus is a rare event. Instances of suspected secondary transmission of vaccine virus have been reported, but in few instances has the secondary clinical illness been shown to be caused by vaccine virus. ” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/varicella.pdf

  76. September 14, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Reissd, ;-)

    I was familiar with it because it was discussed in the This Week in Virology podcast. Most of those vaccinia transfers were due to not following instructions. It is also why there is a question about being near someone who has been vaccinated by smallpox is asked before you give blood.

    And the “aborted fetus” was from over forty years ago. From Human Cell Strains in Vaccine Development:

    In total only two fetuses, both obtained from abortions done by maternal choice, have given rise to cell strains used in vaccine development. Neither abortion was performed for the purpose of vaccine development.

    and

    Two main human cell strains have been used to develop currently available vaccines, in each case with the original fetal cells in question obtained in the 1960s. The WI-38 cell strain was developed in 1961 in the United States, and the MRC-5 cell strain (also started with fetal lung cells) was developed in 1965 in the United Kingdom. No new or additional fetal cells are required in order to sustain the two cell strains.

    So, again, the question is why do you have more regard to those two fetuses, than to now living children and future babies?

  77. September 14, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    turkey and gravy:

    If it can happen once, then the prevalence can’t be suggested as “rare” based only on “available data.”

    But it okay for rubella, measles and chicken pox to continue to happen because of one transfer of a vaccine that is not given to children?

  78. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    Explain to me why you have more regard for the “possibility” of an unvaccinated child to “infect” a pregnant woman whose rubella “never took” than you do for my child’s right not to accept your unwanted guinea pig experiments with his immune system and health? Not to mention all the newborn victims subjected to the toxic needle at 12 hours old for Hepatitis B they are not at risk for and when they get older if exposed, any obtained immunity would have long waned? You can’t “moralize” vaccines.

    Chris :
    turkey and gravy:

    This is simply his opinion and it does not mean it is “ethical” for those who believe otherwise.

    Is it ethical for your unvaccinated child to infect a pregnant woman whose immunity from rubella never took? Do you care if your child gives chicken pox to a pregnant woman?
    How is that moral? Explain to me why you have more regard to one fetus who was legally aborted (possibly due to mother’s rubella infection) fifty years ago, and not to those who are now living and future babies.

  79. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    You seem to miss the point. It was given to children for years. I had the measles and chicken pox. I don’t have any life altering life long adverse effects either, unlike vaccines.

    Chris :
    turkey and gravy:

    If it can happen once, then the prevalence can’t be suggested as “rare” based only on “available data.”

    But it okay for rubella, measles and chicken pox to continue to happen because of one transfer of a vaccine that is not given to children?

  80. September 14, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    turkey and gravy:

    I had the measles and chicken pox.

    So what? How does that help those who suffer permanent disability and death from those diseases? You survived, so you don’t have to care what happens to anyone else?

    Is this why you care more about two fetuses from fifty years ago than for children and future babies? You survived, so if they don’t it is just fine. You have no standing to judge morality.

    You just don’t care that there are over a thousand deaths each year stemming from hepatitis b:

    No. of Death Certificates listing
    HBV as a Cause of Death, 2010*

    1,792

    You are a real fine example of humanity.

  81. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    reissd :
    “Where is the proof that this is where his measles was contracted? “Years later?” This premise is ridiculous and flies in the face of the well worn argument you folks use regarding “correlation not equaling causation.” This is really a looong stretch.
    Let me introduce you to the nasty measles complication called SSPE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002392/. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-8749.2010.03717.x/asset/j.1469-8749.2010.03717.x.pdf;jsessionid=0676A37200EFD5C278D184DDDB3E5B3A.d03t04?v=1&t=hll68bya&s=d3d512d22f480df6f82bd04324f01459f1992015.
    As explained in the later article, “he clinical manifestations occur, on average, 6 years after measles virus infection.” SSPE is incurable. It destroys the brain slowly. As to Micha’s story – follow the links in the post.

    Sorry, this just sounds unrealistic. In the Peds office, a preteen is blamed for spreading the measles to a 5 month old and other infants in the waiting room? How does this happen when most infants are in carriers and not crawling around? What, did these mothers let this kid come over and breathe on their babies? How long were they in the waiting room, all day? Where was the exposure of the preteen traced to and why isn’t anyone concerned about that? Something just doesn’t add up here.

  82. September 14, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    “What, did these mothers let this kid come over and breathe on their babies?

    Measles is very infectious, the virus spreads and can linger in a room for at least two hours. Just by being there the kids were infected.

    And, I see you are showing your normal concern to children who get sick. They died, so they are as important to you compared to two fetuses from fifty years ago.

  83. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Chris is now reversing the argument. This is exactly how you come off regarding vaccine injured and dead kids… like you don’t care.

    Life is risky, people get sick and die. But we survived without vaccines for thousands of years. I’ll accept the thousands of years odds to the ones you promote, injecting on purpose to cause shedding and spreading of illnesses, yeah.. that makes sense.

    Chris :
    turkey and gravy:

    I had the measles and chicken pox.

    So what? How does that help those who suffer permanent disability and death from those diseases? You survived, so you don’t have to care what happens to anyone else?
    Is this why you care more about two fetuses from fifty years ago than for children and future babies? You survived, so if they don’t it is just fine. You have no standing to judge morality.
    You just don’t care that there are over a thousand deaths each year stemming from hepatitis b:

    No. of Death Certificates listing
    HBV as a Cause of Death, 2010*
    1,792
    You are a real fine example of humanity.

  84. September 14, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    Sorry, left out an important word:

    They died, so they are not as important to you compared to two fetuses from fifty years ago.

    Also, from The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review:

    Measles is transmitted by the respiratory route and is highly infectious. Infectivity is greatest in the 3 days before the onset of rash, and 75%–90% of susceptible household contacts develop the disease [14–16]. The early prerash symptoms are similar to those of other common respiratory illnesses, and affected persons often participate in routine social activities, facilitating transmission. Numerous outbreaks of disease in highly vaccinated populations occur when children in the first few days of illness attend sporting events as participants or spectators, especially indoor events such as basketball and wrestling tournaments [17–21]. Outbreaks also occur when ill children are brought to a doctor’s office or emergency room for evaluation for fever, irritability, or rash [22–23].

  85. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    Turkey and Gravy, some of us survived without vaccines for thousands of years. Many babies did not reach their first years, or their fifth year, or their 10th.

  86. September 14, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    @T&G – yes, we survived for thousands of years by having tons of kids & hoping that enough of them would survive to child-bearing age to propigate the species….you are a very poor student of history, aren’t you?

    Why do you think average family size has decreased over the past 100 years – and why did the average family have as many as 10 or more children before this time?

    Infant and child mortality in this country used to be as high as 50% & it is still so in many Third World countries (and in some cases, even higher).

    As to the infectious nature of measles – it is one of, if not the most infectious diseases on the planet – again, not surprising that in a pediatric waiting room – without any precautions, that the unvaccinated would be at great risk of infection.

    Again, you’re not very smart, are you?

  87. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    To add to Chris’ info: “Measles transmission is primarily person to person via large respiratory droplets. Airborne transmission via aerosolized droplet nuclei has been documented in closed areas (e.g., office examination room) for up to 2 hours after a person with measles occupied the area.” http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf

  88. September 14, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    @T&G – I recommend you read up on the subject before you decide to comment again:

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

  89. Gray Falcon
    September 14, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    Let’s see, a religion based on attempting to gain a deity’s favor through following complex rituals of unknown meaning, with no ethical or moral obligations: “turkey and gravy”, do you worship Baal, by any chance?

  90. September 14, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    turkey and gravy:

    Life is risky, people get sick and die. But we survived without vaccines for thousands of years.

    And you have no concept that through out history families were large, because so many children died. Yeah, you are a fine piece of humanity. You don’t care that real children die from measles.

    I’ll accept the thousands of years odds to the ones you promote, injecting on purpose to cause shedding and spreading of illnesses, yeah.. that makes sense.

    Now you have made a testable claim. It is now up to you to provide the actual scientific evidence to show the risk from vaccines exceed that of the diseases. Now provide the PubMed indexed studies from a qualified reputable researcher showing that the vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule (ie not vaccinia) causes more harm than the disease.

    And then also provide the PubMed indexed study that shows disease transmission is a common occurrence from a child recently receiving a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule.

    No more excuses like “I survived so the disease is okay dokay” or “A fetus was used fifty years ago so those vaccines are bad.” Give us real evidence.

  91. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    Nice sink into the personal insults. Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. Not so wonderful considering all the vaccines on the schedule we should be the lowest. But there is no scientific link between vaccines and good health.

    Lawrence :
    @T&G – yes, we survived for thousands of years by having tons of kids & hoping that enough of them would survive to child-bearing age to propigate the species….you are a very poor student of history, aren’t you?
    Why do you think average family size has decreased over the past 100 years – and why did the average family have as many as 10 or more children before this time?
    Infant and child mortality in this country used to be as high as 50% & it is still so in many Third World countries (and in some cases, even higher).
    As to the infectious nature of measles – it is one of, if not the most infectious diseases on the planet – again, not surprising that in a pediatric waiting room – without any precautions, that the unvaccinated would be at great risk of infection.
    Again, you’re not very smart, are you?

  92. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 4:06 pm

    The more important take away imo would be to keep infants out of doctors offices unless they’re sick. And of course not to let preteens sick with fever come close to my infant. I wonder how many illnesses would be averted if not for all the “well baby” ped visits? hmm.

    reissd :
    Turkey and Gravy, some of us survived without vaccines for thousands of years. Many babies did not reach their first years, or their fifth year, or their 10th.

  93. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    I am the real “evidence,” I didn’t have 18 vaccines by/at the age of 6 months and I’m still living! Wow! And my vaccines are not “up to date” either. I’m a miracle!

    Chris :
    turkey and gravy:

    Life is risky, people get sick and die. But we survived without vaccines for thousands of years.

    And you have no concept that through out history families were large, because so many children died. Yeah, you are a fine piece of humanity. You don’t care that real children die from measles.

    I’ll accept the thousands of years odds to the ones you promote, injecting on purpose to cause shedding and spreading of illnesses, yeah.. that makes sense.

    Now you have made a testable claim. It is now up to you to provide the actual scientific evidence to show the risk from vaccines exceed that of the diseases. Now provide the PubMed indexed studies from a qualified reputable researcher showing that the vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule (ie not vaccinia) causes more harm than the disease.
    And then also provide the PubMed indexed study that shows disease transmission is a common occurrence from a child recently receiving a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule.
    No more excuses like “I survived so the disease is okay dokay” or “A fetus was used fifty years ago so those vaccines are bad.” Give us real evidence.

  94. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    One of the reasons for “tons of kids” was because of poor birth control methods. lol

    turkey and gravy :
    Nice sink into the personal insults. Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. Not so wonderful considering all the vaccines on the schedule we should be the lowest. But there is no scientific link between vaccines and good health.

    Lawrence :
    @T&G – yes, we survived for thousands of years by having tons of kids & hoping that enough of them would survive to child-bearing age to propigate the species….you are a very poor student of history, aren’t you?
    Why do you think average family size has decreased over the past 100 years – and why did the average family have as many as 10 or more children before this time?
    Infant and child mortality in this country used to be as high as 50% & it is still so in many Third World countries (and in some cases, even higher).
    As to the infectious nature of measles – it is one of, if not the most infectious diseases on the planet – again, not surprising that in a pediatric waiting room – without any precautions, that the unvaccinated would be at great risk of infection.
    Again, you’re not very smart, are you?

  95. September 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Turkey and Gravy:

    But there is no scientific link between vaccines and good health.

    Now you are just making stuff up. There is a link in the above article showing how vaccines have prevented hospitalizations and deaths. So, again, it is obvious you have not read the article.

    Now, in order to prove you are an upstanding person and actually care about children, answer my questions. Provide the actual scientific data to show that shedding from vaccinated children is common, and that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.

    And now a third question, since you now claim that vaccine have not contributed to good health. Here is data from a census, do tell us why measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970. Do not use any other decade, do not mention mortality and do not mention any other countries, be sure to provide actual scientific documentation to support your answer:

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  96. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    “Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. ” The U.S. has less health insurance coverage than most other nations, and counts all births, even at a very early week. But you seem to think it’s vaccines. Ignoring the fact that infant mortality in the U.S. decreased dramatically since 1940, as more vaccines were added to the schedule: figure 7 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf. Sorry, the evidence goes against the association you are drawing.

  97. September 14, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Turkey and Gravy:

    I am the real “evidence,”

    Please find a dictionary and look up the word, plus the ones in the following statement: the plural of anecdote is not data.

  98. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    “I am the real “evidence,” I didn’t have 18 vaccines by/at the age of 6 months and I’m still living! Wow! And my vaccines are not “up to date” either. I’m a miracle!” You’re lucky, and benefitting from the fact that most people vaccinate and provide you with herd immunity. I’m happy to do my share to keep diphtheria, measles, and other diseases away from you. Of course, as I said before, the people who did not survive are not here to bear witness. I’m sorry you care so little about them.

  99. Gray Falcon
    September 14, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    I once got hit by a car while walking, and I’m still alive. Clearly, cars are no danger to pedestrians.

  100. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    turkey and gravy :
    Nice sink into the personal insults. Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. Not so wonderful considering all the vaccines on the schedule we should be the lowest.

    Bit odd this comment. I assume you directly equate Infant Mortality Rate with the number of vaccines in the schedule.
    So that would be why the IMR has “risen” over the last 10 years in parallel with the rise in vaccinations.

    Oooh….er….Maybe not.
    You want to try and rethink that one, maybe after engaging brain?

  101. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    turkey and gravy :
    I am the real “evidence,” I didn’t have 18 vaccines by/at the age of 6 months and I’m still living! Wow! And my vaccines are not “up to date” either. I’m a miracle!

    Are you sure there wasn’t some residual consequence to having measles encephalitis?

  102. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Chris :
    Turkey and Gravy:

    But there is no scientific link between vaccines and good health.

    Now you are just making stuff up. There is a link in the above article showing how vaccines have prevented hospitalizations and deaths. So, again, it is obvious you have not read the article.
    Now, in order to prove you are an upstanding person and actually care about children, answer my questions. Provide the actual scientific data to show that shedding from vaccinated children is common, and that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.
    And now a third question, since you now claim that vaccine have not contributed to good health. Here is data from a census, do tell us why measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970. Do not use any other decade, do not mention mortality and do not mention any other countries, be sure to provide actual scientific documentation to support your answer:
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

    Easy.
    In 1963 people the American public discovered the joys of plumbing. So they could all start washing their hands or something.
    (Can’t possibly have been the entirely coincidental introduction of a measles vaccine that year, could it?)

  103. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    Chris :
    Turkey and Gravy:

    I am the real “evidence,”

    Please find a dictionary and look up the word, plus the ones in the following statement: the plural of anecdote is not data.

    Oh, I think he/she is “the real evidence”.
    Evidence of what, though, I am unprepared to say on a public forum.

  104. MadMamaBear
    September 14, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    Vaccination: A Mythical History ~ by Roman Bystrianyk and Suzanne Humphries MD – See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/08/27/vaccination-a-mythical-history-by-roman-bystrianyk-and-suzanne-humphries-md/#sthash.m1wRbt7u.dpuf

  105. September 14, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    MadMamaBear, have you bothered reading the above article yet? Or are you just spamming the comments for no particular reason?

  106. September 14, 2013 at 7:18 pm

    Also, MadMamaBear, looking at that site it seems it has one huge flaw, just looking at mortality. Now, you are being asked to provide the answer to why measles in the USA dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970.

  107. September 14, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    @MMB – Suzanne Humphries believe you can cure Rabies with water…..would you like to take those odds?

  108. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    “Less health insurance coverage?” What are you trying to infer here? Even with no health insurance, each state has health departments and free clinics to provide health care to residents. It sounds as if you’ve swallowed the false media guise to promote Obamacare.

    Infants were not given vaccines in 1940

    reissd :
    “Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. ” The U.S. has less health insurance coverage than most other nations, and counts all births, even at a very early week. But you seem to think it’s vaccines. Ignoring the fact that infant mortality in the U.S. decreased dramatically since 1940, as more vaccines were added to the schedule: figure 7 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf. Sorry, the evidence goes against the association you are drawing.

  109. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    “Infants were not given vaccines in 1940″ Well, there was the diphtheria and tetanus anti-toxins and shortly after DTP, and small pox, but the point is: with a lower number of vaccines, a higher number of babies dying. Not the other way. More vaccines, less babies dying. Is that clear?

  110. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    ““Less health insurance coverage?” What are you trying to infer here? Even with no health insurance, each state has health departments and free clinics to provide health care to residents. It sounds as if you’ve swallowed the false media guise to promote Obamacare.” No. About 4000000 americans had no access to health insurance before the act: many many people were not insured. Many others were – and still are – under insured in a way that makes it hard or impossible for them to get adequate care.

  111. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    Turkey, vaccination started in the 1940s. Since then, infant mortality has plummeted, despite more and more vaccines being added to the schedule.
    Now if you rather bizarrely persist in your belief that vaccinations directly correlate to infant mortality, you have quite a bit of explaining to do, since the data would show that vaccines lower mortality.

  112. dingo199
    September 14, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    and Turkey….. look up the difference between imply and infer, would you?

  113. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    And I suppose you also believe 36,000 people die from the flu as the CDC “says?” These numbers may be revised similar to the weekly unemployment jobs numbers lol :)

    dingo199 :

    turkey and gravy :
    Nice sink into the personal insults. Infant mortality in the US is BELOW Cuba at 34. Not so wonderful considering all the vaccines on the schedule we should be the lowest.

    Bit odd this comment. I assume you directly equate Infant Mortality Rate with the number of vaccines in the schedule.
    So that would be why the IMR has “risen” over the last 10 years in parallel with the rise in vaccinations.
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db120_fig1.png
    Oooh….er….Maybe not.
    You want to try and rethink that one, maybe after engaging brain?

  114. September 14, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    turkey and gravy, where do you get your information? What do you consider a good source for historical data?

  115. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    The only thing clear is that they have split the categories. SIDS is now separated from “Sudden Unexplained Infant Death,” SUID and there is another category for those 12 months and over “Sudden Unexplained Death in Children,” SUDC this was the same trick they used for Autism, PDD-NOS, PDD etc. This is a great way to fool people into thinking the prevalence is low or decreased when combined, they actually tell a different story. But it is curious that this crowd is continually critical of “anecdotal” parental experience, they seem to have no problem with the collection of telephone data from parents for their epidemiological junk science. How odd.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10024-005-1155-8

    http://www.sidscenter.org/JournalAlerts/2012/JournalAlert_june.html

    reissd :
    “Infants were not given vaccines in 1940″ Well, there was the diphtheria and tetanus anti-toxins and shortly after DTP, and small pox, but the point is: with a lower number of vaccines, a higher number of babies dying. Not the other way. More vaccines, less babies dying. Is that clear?

  116. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    The data doesn’t look at SIDS but at total infant mortality – all infant mortality – so that explanation doesn’t work.

  117. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    What is the source for this bs? “No access to health insurance?” This is a total lie. Even the poor in America can sign up for Medicaid. Pick any state and google “health dept.” and you will be given a cities that provide FREE vaccines for kids and access to healthcare for ANY resident. smh.

    reissd :
    ““Less health insurance coverage?” What are you trying to infer here? Even with no health insurance, each state has health departments and free clinics to provide health care to residents. It sounds as if you’ve swallowed the false media guise to promote Obamacare.” No. About 4000000 americans had no access to health insurance before the act: many many people were not insured. Many others were – and still are – under insured in a way that makes it hard or impossible for them to get adequate care.

  118. turkey and gravy
    September 14, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    This is the result from CA:

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/pages/californialocalhealthdepartments.aspx

    FREE healthcare for everyone paid by the state health dept.

  119. reissd
    September 14, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Here you go: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/data/incpovhlth/2011/highlights.html. “The number of uninsured people also decreased, to 48.6 million, down from 50.0 million in 2010.”

  120. September 14, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    turkey and gravy, not all of us live in California. This says:

    The percentage of children without health care in Oregon has dropped dramatically – from 11.3 percent in 2009 to 5.6 percent.

    … and this says:

    Texas is the uninsured capital of the United States. More than 6.3 million Texans – including 1.2 million children – lack health insurance. Texas’ uninsurance rates, 1.5 to 2 times the national average, create significant problems in the financing and delivery of health care to all Texans. Those who lack insurance coverage typically enjoy far-worse health status than their insured counterparts.

  121. Chemmomo
    September 15, 2013 at 2:57 am

    Chris, I don’t think t&g actually lives in California, either. The link simply leads to the phone numbers of each county’s health department. It seems that due to the words “Public Health” in their title, t&g has mistaken the folks monitoring health and health services for the state with with a government handout.

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/PublicHealthEssentialServices.aspx

    We do have Medi-Cal (for which you must be eligible) and AIM (Access for Infants and Mothers) , which subsidizes families whose income is too high for Medi-Cal yet cannot get any other health coverage.

    This is not “FREE healthcare for everyone paid by the state health dept.”

  122. September 15, 2013 at 7:23 am

    @Chemmomo – it also doesn’t help when states try to (or succeed in) depriving poor women from access to reproductive care by defunding organizations like Planned Parenthood – which results in worse outcomes from pregnancy (including increased infant mortality).

  123. MadMamaBear
    September 15, 2013 at 8:31 am

    You might want to educate yourself regarding some of the adjuvants and preservatives in vaccines. Keep in mind, disclosure of GRAS and “proprietary” ingredients are not required. From the CDC Pink Book:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

    Be sure to make note of Thimerosal in flu vaccines Then ask yourself why flu vaccines are recommended for expectant mothers and children.

    Dorea JG. (2013). Low-dose Mercury Exposure in Early Life: Relevance of Thimerosal to Fetuses, Newborns and Infants. Curr Med Chem. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23992327

    Excerpt: “Major databases were searched for human and experimental studies that addressed issues related to early life exposure to TCV. It can be concluded that: a) mercury load in fetuses, neonates, and infants resulting from TCVs remains in blood of neonates and infants at sufficient concentration and for enough time to penetrate the brain and to exert a neurologic impact and a probable influence on neurodevelopment of susceptible infants; b) etHg metabolism related to neurodevelopmental delays has been demonstrated experimentally and observed in population studies; c) unlike chronic Hg exposure during pregnancy, neurodevelopmental effects caused by acute (repeated/cumulative) early life exposure to TCV-etHg remain unrecognized; and d) the uncertainty surrounding low-dose toxicity of etHg is challenging but recent evidence indicates that avoiding cumulative insults by alkyl-mercury forms (which include Thimerosal) is warranted”

  124. MadMamaBear
    September 15, 2013 at 8:49 am

    Abstract “The infant mortality rate (IMR) is one of the most important indicators of the socio-economic well-being and public health conditions of a country. The US childhood immunization schedule specifies 26 vaccine doses for infants aged less than 1 year—the most in the world—yet 33 nations have lower IMRs. Using linear regression, the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined and a correlation coefficient of r = 0.70 (p < 0.0001) was found between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants. Nations were also grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges: 12–14, 15–17, 18–20, 21–23, and 24–26. The mean IMRs of all nations within each group were then calculated. Linear regression analysis of unweighted mean IMRs showed a high statistically significant correlation between increasing number of vaccine doses and increasing infant mortality rates, with r = 0.992 (p = 0.0009). Using the Tukey-Kramer test, statistically significant differences in mean IMRs were found between nations giving 12–14 vaccine doses and those giving 21–23, and 24–26 doses. A closer inspection of correlations between vaccine doses, biochemical or synergistic toxicity, and IMRs is essential."

    Keywords: infant mortality rates, sudden infant death, SIDS, immunization schedules, childhood vaccines, drug toxicology, synergistic effects, linear regression model

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/#!po=7.50000

  125. MadMamaBear
    September 15, 2013 at 8:57 am

    Read the vaccine package inserts! http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm

  126. September 15, 2013 at 9:04 am

    @MMB – the study authors didn’t control for the various different ways that infant mortality is calculated per country (because they aren’t the same) – that’s just one example of why that study is utter crap.

  127. September 15, 2013 at 9:10 am

    @MMB – once again, I’ll point you to this series of studies……

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

  128. September 15, 2013 at 9:18 am
  129. reissd
    September 15, 2013 at 10:59 am

    @MadMamaBear – please read above, where the mortality study was already extensively addressed. And if you’re going to read inserts – not a bad idea – here is some guidance on their meaning: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/

  130. reissd
    September 15, 2013 at 11:02 am

    The talented COVRAC collected a list of safety studies about the flu shot in pregnancy, showing its safety: https://www.facebook.com/notes/chillin-out-vaxin-relaxin-all-cool/studies-of-influenza-vaccine-in-pregnancy/494141367316459. Let me remind you, MMB, that flu is very dangerous both for the pregnant woman and her fetus.

  131. September 15, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    MadMamaBear, it is really bad form to spam the comments of an article that you did not bother to read. It is also makes you look foolish.

    Chemmomo, yeah, I figured. Especially one of the links I posted listed California as high in the uninsured children list, just behind Texas.

  132. MadMamaBear
    September 15, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Show me the study of the cumulative effect of the CDC recommended childhood schedule. not done by those who profit from vaccines.

  133. September 15, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    MadMamaBear, answer my question first. If vaccines are useless, then explain why the incidence of measles fell 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970, see census above.

    Then please explain how treating measles is more cost effective than preventing measles. Because that seems very strange that there is profit in preventing hospital bills.

  134. dingo199
    September 15, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    Turkey, can you please provide a source for your allegation that US infant mortality rates have risen as the number of vaccines in the schedule have increased.
    All available sources would indicate the opposite is true.
    Instead of mouthing inane lies, just back up your claims with hard evidence. Or stop trolling.

  135. September 15, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    @MMB – you obviously haven’t looked very hard – PubMed is your friend….and you have no idea how safety clinical trials are done, do you?

    Again, you really should look at:

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    The truth hurts, doesn’t it?

  136. September 15, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    MadMamaBear, please go through that list of studies posted by Lawrence and tell us which ones are funded by Big Pharma. Be sure to post a direct quote from the papers’ Conflict of Interest declarations.

  137. September 16, 2013 at 2:10 am

    turkey and gravy :
    “Less health insurance coverage?” What are you trying to infer here? Even with no health insurance, each state has health departments and free clinics to provide health care to
    residents. It sounds as if you’ve swallowed the false media guise to promote Obamacare.
    Infants were not given vaccines in 1940

    Have you ever tried to access those free services? They have limited services and you have to take days off of work to access them. I pay 1000 a month with a 5K deductible for just myself. I would not even have that without AHA. When AHA comes in I will pay around 350.00$. I like it.

  138. dingo199
    September 16, 2013 at 4:31 am

    MadMamaBear :Then ask yourself why flu vaccines are recommended for expectant mothers and children. blockquote>

    Mad Mama, As you didn’t acknowlege its existence, I am referring you again to this:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/chillin-out-vaxin-relaxin-all-cool/studies-of-influenza-vaccine-in-pregnancy/494141367316459

    Please take the time to read the dozen or so studies which illustrate the importance and safety of flu vaccination in pregnancy.

    If you wish to dispute any particular study, we can discuss that further. But ignoring science, facts and hard evidence doesn’t make any of your own utterings sound any more credible.

    But I’d far rather we all stuck to the subject of this discussion (legal responsibilities) than get distracted by your spamming of pointless antivaccine propaganda.

  139. dingo199
    September 16, 2013 at 4:34 am

    MadMamaBear :Then ask yourself why flu vaccines are recommended for expectant mothers and children.

    Mad Mama, As you didn’t acknowlege its existence, I am referring you again to this:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/chillin-out-vaxin-relaxin-all-cool/studies-of-influenza-vaccine-in-pregnancy/494141367316459

    Please take the time to read the dozen or so studies which illustrate the importance and safety of flu vaccination in pregnancy.

    If you wish to dispute any particular study, we can discuss that further. But ignoring science, facts and hard evidence doesn’t make any of your own utterings sound any more credible.

    But I’d far rather we all stuck to the subject of this discussion (legal responsibilities) than get distracted by your spamming of antivaccine propaganda.

  140. Kiwismommy
    September 16, 2013 at 8:07 pm

    A friend of mine has cystic fibrosis and his greatest fear is the flu mist vaccine which states that you can spread the flu for up to 20 days following administration. If he gets the flu from someone that had the flu mist and didn’t stay home for 20 days, are they also liable for his death? They know they can be contagious yet they choose to infect others by not staying home for 20 days. This is a far more likely scenario than an unvaccinated kid, first being exposed to a disease for which there are vaccines available and then exposing others. Just being unvaccinated would not make you a vector of disease any more than being vaccinated prevents you from being a vector even if you yourself do not show symptoms. Someone that is vaccinated yet exposed to the live virus can then carry and spread disease.
    This whole premise is ridiculous and is a slippery slope to disaster. Life is not free of risk, no matter your choices. This is a path best not traveled as the consequences could be just the opposite of what you have vehemently intended. They seem to be unable to prosecute even those who have knowingly spread AIDS, I can’t imagine the courts even attempting to deal with this fiasco of an idea.

  141. Gray Falcon
    September 16, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    Where does it say that about the flu mist vaccine? Here’s the CDC info sheet, nothing about it spreading the flu:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/flulive.pdf

    Why would someone invent a vaccine that spreads the disease, anyway? That’s like making soap out of dirt.

  142. dingo199
    September 17, 2013 at 10:53 am

    @Kiwismom
    I don’t really understand – your friend has cystic fibrosis, a condition which predisposes people to respiratory complications and infections. I assume he is vacinated (presumably with killed vaccine?).
    But he is not immunocompromised in the sense that a live virus vaccine is contraindicated in him. He could receive flumist himself, with no adverse consequences.

    So the worst thing that could happen if he encountered someone very recently vaccinated with flumist would be that he gets exposed to some vaccine virus shed by the person just vaccinated. In effect, your friend is getting a small dose of flumist, for free! Shouldn’t harm him, and it might actually boost his immunity against flu, which considering he has CF would be a very desireable thing indeed.

  143. dingo199
    September 17, 2013 at 10:59 am

    Kiwismommy :Just being unvaccinated would not make you a vector of disease any more than being vaccinated prevents you from being a vector even if you yourself do not show symptoms.

    But it does. Unvaccinated kids are around 23 times more likely than vaccinated kids to get pertussis, for example, and around 50-100 times more likely to get measles. So being unvaccinated greatly increases your chances of infection (and therefore being a harmful vector).

  144. September 17, 2013 at 11:12 am

    @Dingo – yes, there is no way for “flumist” to actually cause the flu.

  145. MadMamaBear
    September 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    When it comes to liability, here are some references to the “official” information regarding vaccine shedding. Pause as needed. Truly “informed consent” should include this information prior to receiving vaccines to protect the “herd”

  146. September 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Informed consent does not come from YouTube videos.

  147. September 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Nor Facebook…..

  148. September 17, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    MadMamaBear, how does that answer the questions I have asked you?

  149. dingo199
    September 17, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    MadMamaBear :
    When it comes to liability, here are some references to the “official” information regarding vaccine shedding. Pause as needed. Truly “informed consent” should include this information prior to receiving vaccines to protect the “herd”
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200602846290102&l=5901548272536763260

    Mad Mama,
    “Shedding” live vaccine virus merely immunizes the contacts.
    A win-win for everyone!

  150. MadMamaBear
    September 17, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    dingo199 :

    MadMamaBear :
    When it comes to liability, here are some references to the “official” information regarding vaccine shedding. Pause as needed. Truly “informed consent” should include this information prior to receiving vaccines to protect the “herd”
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200602846290102&l=5901548272536763260

    Mad Mama,
    “Shedding” live vaccine virus merely immunizes the contacts.
    A win-win for everyone!

    But what about the immune compromised person or the pregnant woman or mother and infant who are standing behind little Suzie at the grocery store while she is shedding after a measles vaccination?

    Was her Mommy instructed to quarantine her daughter during the shedding period?

    Who should sue whom again?

    How many reported cases of measles are lab verified for specific strain? Same goes for pertussis, chicken pox etc.

  151. Kiwismommy
    September 17, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Wow, you people are dillusional. So the CDC website says that recipients of flu-mist can shed and infect others and that in testing, nasal swabs revealed shedding for some can occur up to 28 days after receiving the vaccine but it is an average of 21 days. They actually did a study in a daycare and two of the three vaccine strains were confirmed in children that had not received the flu mist, verifying it can be shed and make other sick.

    It also states that anyone at an increased risk from wild flu, immunocompromised individuals. those with ailments of the heart or lungs(CF would qualify) should never receive flu mist. It also states that anyone in regular contact with someone with severe immunodeficiencies should never get the flu mist. While some of you seem to think it’s like free candy, no dangers, we are all sharing the virus amongst ourselves to the betterment of all. Kumbaya!

    You claim flu mist cannot cause the flu, while the CDC website claims it PROBABLY will not as while it is a live vaccine it is weakened, but they also admit that some may get very sick as everyne is different. They also point out that side effects can be…….runny nose, headache, wheezing, vomiting, muscle aches, sore throat, cough, and fever. Sounds an awful lot like the flu doesn’t it? We can argue the severity til the cows come home, you have no way to prove it is, would be, should be less severe than if you actually caught the flu, it would be impossible to prove that except anectodotallly and we know how much you all hate that!

    How do you expect to win the hearts and minds of those undecided and confused people out there when you see fit to simply make shit up and lie about it.

  152. Olivia Jennings
    September 17, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    kiwismomm, my brother got a flu shot last year, got sick and was in the hospital for 3 days and yet they denied it was the flus shot that did it to him. He had all of the flu symptoms and it was literally within 24 hours of his flu shot, but that was all just a coincidence. Yeah right!!

  153. September 17, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    @MMB & Kiwi – http://www.childrenscolorado.org/wellness/topics/flu-mist-myths.aspx

    Deals with several of your “issues.”

  154. Kiwismommy
    September 17, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Olivia, every vaccine reaction is a coincidence. Every vaccine reaction is anectdotal! No medical personnel or alphabet agency employee, pharma employee, or the shills that frequent these sites will ever admit that any reaction after a vaccine is caused by the vaccine at all. Now, most will admit that reactions are possible, even horrible ones up to and including death, until there actually is one, and then it is not one in a million or even 1 in 10 million, every single possible reaction is put down, degraded, those making the claim are attacked, ridiculed, called names, and their personal character is attacked. Any medical person or scientist who may question whether some reactions were indeed caused by a vaccine, well they are labeled a quack, disreputable, well you get the picture.
    When cases were decided by juries, well of course these were non-scientific lay people unable to decipher the complexities of science, and when it was shifted to the federal vaccine courts well now they claim there is an even lower burden of proof. Despite the fact that 3 out 4 lose, typically because they didn’t dot an I or cross a T, not because their child’s injury doesn’t fall on the schedule. And despite the fact that there is no discovery allowed, parents can be denied the ability to call expert witnesses, to have access to industry information, and are often drug through this very adversarial system for 10 years before being compensated, or denied. Even then, you will see they deny this is proof of a vaccine injury. Even if you win against a federal court, filled with federal lawyers, and federal special master, all who have the bulk of the industry information at their fingertips, who are getting paid all the while of the trial,can call any witness they wish to, and are pressured politically to find against those filing a claim, well even then they will deny that there is any proof the injury was caused by the vaccine. They try to pretend to be logical, scientific, sometimes even compassionate, but in real life they are none of the above.
    Yes, just ask them and they will tell you that there is not a single, specific, individual case of vaccine injury that they will admit was actually caused by a vaccine, not one, ever. So while theorhetically plausible, it simply never happens in their dilusional little world. Pharma companies don’t lie to sell product, even if it will mean the death of thousands, they don’t hide studies that had negative findings from the FDA, and they don’t get fined millions for all of the above. They don’t ghost write all the articles in our medical journals, or pressure universities to find for them or lose funding. All is well here in pharma land, well except for millions of children that are neurologically and medically impaired for life. But they aren’t really concerned about those children, they would rather proseletyze about “the children”, protect the children, vaccinate the children, and I guess to hell with those already damaged. I have come to believe that 50% of our children could drop dead in the 5 minutes following multiple vaccine and they would still deny, still say you can’t prove it, and still say the benefits outweigh the risks. To question the safety, effectiveness, benefits vs. risks, to even bring it up is blasphemy, you might as well tell a christian there is no Jesus, you would get the same reactions.

  155. September 17, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    @kiwis – you really need to rely on real information, no scare-mongering….

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

  156. Gray Falcon
    September 17, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    @kiwis, you have to understand something. We’re not trying to be mean or support a multimillion dollar corporation, we’re simply looking for evidence. So far, you’ve given us accusations, but those aren’t enough. We need actual, tangible, evidence, which you have failed to provide.

  157. Gray Falcon
    September 17, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    By the way, Kiwismommy, how we know you’re not in the pay of someone? A lot alternative medicine companies are worth quite a bit, and would love to have people turn away from mainstream medicine. How would you prove that you don’t have an agenda?

  158. dingo199
    September 18, 2013 at 4:38 am

    Tell you guys what – let’s leave this to the courts shall we? See if they will come down on the side of the feckless parent whose child was deliberately left unvaccinated, caught a disease as a result and then infected another vulnerable person with a virulent wild strain virus, or on the side of the responsible parent whose child was vaccinated, but happened to shed some attenuated, live virus for a brief period after vaccination, which then led to another vulnerable person being exposed to this attenuated, virtually harmless, vaccine-strain virus.

  159. September 18, 2013 at 4:46 am

    Kiwismommy :Yes, just ask them and they will tell you that there is not a single, specific, individual case of vaccine injury that they will admit was actually caused by a vaccine, not one, ever.

    There are so many incorrect assumptions, straw men and so much disinformation in your post that I don’t know where to begin to refute it.
    But how about I start with the claim above.
    Where did you ever get the idea that there have never been cases of proven vaccine injuries?
    Vaccines have side effects, they can cause injuries, and these are acknowledged and compensated for when they happen.

  160. Kiwismommy
    September 18, 2013 at 5:27 am

    You are not looking for evidence! Our sources are quacks according to you and yours are industry driven conflicts of interest riddled liars protecting the bottom line, according to us. We have eye-witness testimonies you call it anectdotal. It doesn’t matter what sources, what links are provided by either side, and you know it. Been around the block enough times to know why you are here and why we are here. You already seem to have all the answers, I know that I do. I’m not here to engage with shills and I don’t have to provide anything. My child will never receive another vaccine ever, and now all my nieces and nephews aren’t vaccinating their children either, and neither are a lot of friends, aquaintences and co-workers. Because I convinced them, nope, didn’t have to. They were eye witnesses as well, but not just to the damage that vaccines can and do cause, but the callous, vitriolic attack by shills like you, the writing off of our children as collatoral damage, the refusal of insurance to cover our kids and doctors to even be bothered to look at them, let alone treat them, the refusal of our government to listen to parents. They watch the schools say its medical and the medical say its educational. They have watched our schools, our communities, our churches, our states, our nation turn their back on an entire generation of damaged children and they are all saying, “Uh no thanks.” You say there is a no-fail system if damage happens but all these people know that is a lie. That is why you are losing the battle and the exemption rates are skyrocketing….not because of people like me…but people like you. This isn’t science, this is morality, humanity. The boat is sinking itself, I needn’t fire a single torpedo. And fear mongering….the fear is already there, any pregnant woman knows her child now has a 1 in 50 chance of developing autism and no one can tell her how to stop it, how to prevent it, except those of us living with it and that know without a doubt what caused it. And these new mothers to be are desperate, they are seeking us out, our stories resonate and they feel empowered instead of hapless victims to add to the growing pile of sick, damaged, dying children. And I don’ know one yet that has regretted that decision, and in fact 100% of them are amazed at how healthy and developmentally advanced their babies are compared to their peers.
    And that boys is science. Since we can’t get the government and industry shackled scientists to do the real tests, we are doing it on our own and as more witness the results, the rates will plummet even further. I am in the pay of my own conscious and the promise I made to my child. And that is all the reward I need. And to see more healthy, unvaccinated children, non-GMO children, children proving that health and vitality do not come from the end of a needle, well that is all the reward I need. I do have an agenda, but it is a personal one. A Mom on a mission. But the 22 people that have told me they are not vaccinating because of what they have witnessed us go through….like I said, I don’t have to convince anyone, you do so much better for my side than I do. I just read today that some areas have exemption rates in the 16 to 20%, yowza, I think you are failing. And those 22 convince a few and they convince a few, and Houston, we have a problem! Never forget that we were vaccinators, we drank the Kool-Aid and learned the hard way. But others around us will not let it happen to theirs. Your only answer is not to fix a broken system but to force people to participate against their will and that approach will never win out.
    It has been fun, have a nice life. Ours will be vaccine free thank you very much!

  161. September 18, 2013 at 6:00 am

    @kiwis – luckily, I live in a area where parents make their decisions based on science and evidence, where vaccination rates are steady or rising & our kids are all doing just great – and we don’t have to worry about outbreaks of infectious diseases, because we think they are bad and should not be suffered through for no reason (so again, vaccination rates are high).

    We care about those around us, thus we vaccinate not only for ourselves, but for those, that out of medical necessity, cannot be vaccinated (or are too young). My son’s school is hosting a health clinic next month to get everyone their flu vaccine – and they are already expanding the clinic because of the overwhelming demand….all good things in my book.

    You can rely on your conspiracies and the thought that millions of medical professionals would be involved in “hurting or ignoring children” or you can think about those that risk their lives on a daily basis to practice medicine and vaccinate the most vulnerable in the worst places in the world for diseases that still kill hundreds of thousands of people every year…..just because you have “First World Problems” doesn’t mean that vaccinations are any less important – both here and around the world.

    Proud father of fully-vaccinated and healthy children….

  162. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2013 at 9:25 am

    Once again, Kiwismommy, you still haven’t proven you don’t have a financial stake in this. How do you plan on proving otherwise?

  163. dingo199
    September 18, 2013 at 9:51 am

    Kiwismom,
    Your child clearly had some problem some time following a vaccine (I don’t know the story) – even if we assume it was due to the vaccine it is rather extreme of you to take to view that you have (namely that no vaccine is safe, none of your family will ever get vaccinated, none of your friends, co-workers etc). You must have spread the bad news of your child’s reaction far and wide, and quite proactively for so many people to have been convinced vaccines are bad.

    Now if you were dissuading others from using a product which didn’t matter (eg yellow custard) then I would say that’s entirely up to you and them as to what they do. But when your story results in active avoidance of all vaccination in others, trhat is what I term “antivaccine” and the consequences are likely to be significant, since vaccines are individually protective and also help maintain herd protection (which is vital for the few in society who remain vulnerable and unvaccinated for good medical reasons).

    In effect, you are storing up a heap of trouble down the line. Maybe at the moment your unvaccinated extended clan will be perfectly OK – obviously they are freeloading by hiding in the herd, but since infections are a mere plane flight or bus ride away, they could well be hit with infections when they are a bit older (an then the infections are usually more severe). Also, as more and more unvaccinated people accumulate in your community, herd protection will be eroded, and there will be outbreaks of unchecked infection sweeping through the population.

    Your view is selfish and narrow minded. Vaccines work, and although they may have complications or reactions, the benefits of vaccines overwhelmingly outweigh their risks. I know you are attributing every reported problem anyone ever had following a vaccine as a “vaccine reaction”, but evidence tells us that most of these are quite coincidental, and many of them have absolutely no link to vaccines whatsoever.

    Your widespread dissemination of disinformation about vaccines does you no credit, and is nothing to be proud of. As an analogy, let’s say a child of mine had his neck injured by the strap of a cycle helmet. Of course, I would be wary of his using a similar helmet again, unless I could reassure myself the risks were minimal. But I wouldn’t believe internet conspiracies on how the risk of any helmet is massive, how BigCycle and the Government are conspiring to sell us all unnecessary helmets and covering up helmet injuries, nor would I go around persuading (scaring?) others to forgo the use of helmets in their own children, based merely upon my own experience. This merely increases the risk of widespread harm which would result from many children forgoing the use of protective helmets. That is the equivalent of what you are doing. I know you regard vaccines as unsafe, but your risk assessment of them is quite misguided.

    And no I am not a “shill” for any organisation. I am an Infectious Diseases physician who gets nothing from the advocacy of vaccination other than a sense of fulfilment and altruism, and pleasure from helping children avoid harm and death from disease. I have worked in several countries, seen several hundred children die from measles, pertussis, tetanus and other vaccine preventable diseases, and I don’t want other families to face the trauma that these unnecessary deaths bring in their wake.

  164. reissd
    September 18, 2013 at 9:57 am

    I think dingo199 should turn this powerful comment into a blog post on “why you should not be proud of spreading vaccine misinformation, and why I speak up for vaccines.” Just saying.

  165. Kiwismommy
    September 18, 2013 at 11:43 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Once again, Kiwismommy, you still haven’t proven you don’t have a financial stake in this. How do you plan on proving otherwise?

    I don’t plan on proving anything!

  166. September 18, 2013 at 11:56 am

    @Kiwis’ – that’s painfully obvious…..

  167. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Kiwis, you have no problems accusing everyone who disagrees with you of having financial incentive to do so. Why can’t the same be true about you?

  168. Kiwismommy
    September 18, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    That’s me….selfish! How selfish of me that I expected to take a healthy child into the doctors and bring a healthy child out. What a selfish expectation! How selfish of me to want a future for my vaccine damaged child and all the children in my family. How selfish of me to want them to grow up like my Brothers and Sisters and I did when our tiny town had zero kids with asthma, diabetes, ADD/ADHD, Autism, bi-polar disorder, childhood schizophreia, cancer, Crohn’s disease, life-threatening food allergies, and more. Yes having the measles, mumps, chicken pox as a child not only gave us life-long immunity but seems to have made for some damn healthy kids while we were at it. No one ever told our parents that measles was deadly, that was laughable. Never knew a single child that had any issues at all, no lasting effect…but fast forward to today. Where that same tiny town that once never even had a speical ed teacher in the whole district, now has SE departments in the grade school, another in the Jr. High, and yet another in the High School. Where the autism population is doubling every two years, where they now have to have a school nurse because of the massive amounts of medications that our children are on. They have “drug cubbies” labeled for each child where you see ANA Kits, insulin, ritalin, risperdal, and the whole line-up of anti-psychotic and neuroleptic drugs that they seem to hand out like candy. The autism classrooms are bulging at the seams and the tenured teachers will tell you that something dramatic has happened in the last 20 years. I see kids with no diagnosis at all that are actually more impaired than my autistic child. The school is being crushed under the cost of these kids, the special classrooms, the one-on-one educational paras needed for so many children. Never in our history have we ever seen anything like this. I see it every day in our school and in other schools I visit around the state. Special ed teachers with 30 years experience say the disorders they once thought they might never see in even a single child in their entire careers, they now have classrooms exploding with them. 25 years ago the number of children in special ed in our tiny town was less than 1%, it is now around 35%. And the majority of these kids are severely impaired, not quirky kids that may have simply been missed in the past, somehow slipped through the system unnoticed. And the teachers say another thing…this is not better awareness and better diagnosis, this is an epidemic. They say if we were simply slapping a different label on these kids than we did in the past it would not bankrupt the schools because we would have dealt with these kids no matter what we called it, but they simply did not exist. And every one of the problems we are seeing at school are lifelong problems and life-shortening. This will be the first generation of children to not outlive the life expectancy of their parents. I never knew a child that died while growing up, not one. Now it is a yearly occurence….several have gone from cancers, a food allergy reaction, an autism wandering/drowning, a deadly asthma attack. Yet I constantly see this crap online that completely ignores the reality of today and still seems to think our greatest concern should be contagious diseases. You claim to care about children, yet you ignore and even deny the reality of the day. That is the crux of the problem here. While we vaccinate more than any nation in the world, we certainly do not have the healthiest children to put up on a hill for the world to see and follow our example. This is a disaster, a holocaust against our children, and when all I hear is people spouting the same ole crap that seems to “NOT BE WORKING” it just amazes me. This year the autism population in our High School hit “20”. In a town of 1,000 people we have 20 teenagers with autism. And you are worried about the Measles. Laughable really, your concern for children is simply overwhelming me with emotion.
    Every single person I know who has decided not to vaccinate is not because I told them what to do or influenced them in any way…..all they had to do was look around them, witness the tsunami, the denials, the refusal to deal with the issue, the lack of answers or even advice on how they might prevent it from happening to their child, so they have all taken their childrens’ health into their own hands. They have stopped listening to the “YOU’s” of the world and become their own health advocate. We are not going to have a problem down the road, we have a problem NOW, down the road is looking pretty good again. They are not just “not” vaccinating, they are detoxing their homes of chemicals, feeding their children organic non GMO foods, clean water, local produce free of pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. We have a brand new generation of young families with exceptionally healthy children with none of the problems we are seeing in all the others. Thank God, perhaps they can take care of our children when we are gone because they will require care for the rest of their lives. But hey, at least they didn’t have the measles, right?

  169. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    @Kiwis- Again, evidence for your allegations. Your very first post here, you made a specific claim about a specific medicine, and failed to provide any evidence for it, even though you insisted you had it.

  170. September 18, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    @Kiwi’s – the return key & paragraphs should be your friend….the “wall o’text” is extremely hard to parse and understand what you are saying.

    Again, in my community, we follow the Science and educate ourselves with the facts. Our kids are healthy, the schools are fantastic about keeping up with current health policies, and heck, even vaccine exemptions are down as well…..looks like we’re doing something right.

    As for the rest, the logical fallacies, lies and misinterpretations you are pushing are too numerous to break down individually.

  171. Kiwismommy
    September 18, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Really, that’s the best you got? You guys are hilarious. logical fallacies, lies, and misinterpretations from my own facts and reality. Oh that is priceless. You’ve got nothing except to shoot the messenger. Priceless, just priceless!
    So you do what you want, I will do what I want. No one is EVER going to win a court case because their kid got sick. This entire article was simply to incite people, it will never ever be close to reality. It’s a joke, and ridiculous conjecture.
    I better get back now to my ancient animistic clan where I am the matriarch that tells everyone what to do.
    This scenario has been repeated on thousands of pages of the internet….yet never ever, not once has anyone had an answer or solutions for the tsunami of sick and damaged kids. It happens every time, they attack the messenger and deny our reality as if it just doesn’t exist. And if that fails just attack their spelling, grammar, punctuation, anythng but the actual issue. Again, another reason the battle is being lost….you offer no answers. And especially not understanding, compassion, and empathy. You’re just dickheads of the first order. Audios!

  172. September 18, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    @Kiwi’s – and yet you accuse us of being uncivilized?

    Wow….

  173. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Kiwis, how do we know you aren’t personally responsible for all the problems your community’s seeing? How do we know you’re not trying to throw off suspicion?

  174. novalox
    September 18, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    @kiwi

    Thanks for admitting that you admit that you are a liar. It will be easy then to dismiss everything to say then.

  175. dingo199
    September 18, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    Kiwi,
    You seem to have totally bought into the lie that children are sicker today than they were in our parent’s/grandparent’s day, and are dropping like flies around us. That is entirely untrue. A simple look at mortality rate trends over the last 50 years shows a steady decline, with rates half what they were 50 years ago.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1615523/

    Perhaps you live in a community that has some serial child killer on the loose? I can’t think of any other explanation for your anecdotal diatribe.

    …..Oh, I see, you live in New Zealand. Maybe they have some lethal miasma emerging from the volcanoes? Err, no. I see that the latest data show New Zealand’s child mortality is the lowest it has ever been.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/infant-death-rate-record-low-statistics-nz-reveals-5345352

    You also have the delusion that anything and everything that ails kids kids in your own particularly unique corner of the world is due to vaccines. Why I wonder? They have nothing to do with autism, cancer, allergies or asthma. Why not blame something else, like high fructose corn syrup, the internet, or aliens from planet zog? There is as much evidence that they have a damaging effect on child health as do vaccines.

    Seeing as how child health has been improving, perhaps we can correlate this with the high number of vaccines we give to our kids nowadays? Yahoo for vaccines!!!!

    I suggest you find a new foil helmet – yours is obviously leaking.

  176. dingo199
    September 18, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    Kiwi, perhaps you may respond by saying I cited infant deaths, not other, older child deaths. Well that won’t wash either, since overall child mortality rates have dropped too.

    I am interested in your claim that every year there are several child deaths in families you know:

    ..Now it [death in a child] is a yearly occurence….several have gone from cancers, a food allergy reaction, an autism wandering/drowning, a deadly asthma attack.

    That makes around 5 or 6 per year I guess.

    Strangely, this data tells me that in children aged 5-9 there were only 18 deaths in the whole of New Zealand in 2010.

    http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/provisional-data-new-zealand-mortality-statistics-1950-2010

    Are you really trying to tell us that a third of all deaths in older kids in the entire country (population 4.5 million) can be linked to your own circle of family/friends?

    I am beginning to think Gray Falcon is right….the link to all these deaths seems to be you, rather than other factors like vaccinations.

  177. Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    I was just trying to make a point about random accusations… I didn’t expect the evidence to back me up!

  178. dingo199
    September 19, 2013 at 4:13 am

    Gray Falcon :I was just trying to make a point about random accusations… I didn’t expect the evidence to back me up!

    Indeed. In her town (pop 1000) there seem to have been 5 recent deaths in kids when the expected rate should actually be about one death every 250 years.

    Have the police been informed about this death cluster? No wonder Kiwimom calls it a “tsunami” and a “holocaust”.
    Have CSI been in to look at the deaths in more detail? I fail to see how vaccine can be responsible – Kiwimon tells us all her friends and acquaintances are actually “vaccination free”. There is clearly some other factor at work. Or we could safely assume that lack of vaccination = death, which is how many would spin this.

  179. September 19, 2013 at 5:22 am

    @Gray & Dingo – why the heck are you letting little things like facts get in the way of a good story…….(well, actually a very bad story).

  180. October 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Thanks so much Kiwimommy! Keep up the fight!
    I will NOT vaccinate my baby

  181. reissd
    October 12, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    I’m sorry to hear that, RSVP. I hope herd immunity will protect your child from preventable diseases, and am glad robe doing my share towards that goal. He or she is welcome.

  182. reissd
    October 12, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    That should be RSV. Autocorrect intervened.

  183. Easy
    October 31, 2013 at 3:46 am

    kathleen :
    so if I get a cold and you get the cold after I do, can you sue for that too? how could you possibly prove without a reasonable doubt that the illness you or a family member gets was in fact from a certain person when the germs are allegedly all over…this will never hold up in court…no way to prove it and if vaccines work and you get the vaccine, and then get the disease, you should be suing the drug company or doctor not a random person

    Did you even read the article? It never alleges you can sue for everything in all circumstances. It says WHEN the illness IS traceable you can sue. Also the illness needs to be something that could have been prevented except for the unreasonable decision of the Defendant. A common cold probably does not fall within that category. Developing a case of the measles that SHOULD have been vaccinated against is another story.

    Why the fuck would you sue the doctor or the drug company, wtf do they have to do with this? lol, can you please make sense?

    Work on your reading comprehension.

  184. Easy
    October 31, 2013 at 3:49 am

    Kiwismommy :
    Really, that’s the best you got? You guys are hilarious. logical fallacies, lies, and misinterpretations from my own facts and reality. Oh that is priceless. You’ve got nothing except to shoot the messenger. Priceless, just priceless!
    So you do what you want, I will do what I want. No one is EVER going to win a court case because their kid got sick. This entire article was simply to incite people, it will never ever be close to reality. It’s a joke, and ridiculous conjecture.
    I better get back now to my ancient animistic clan where I am the matriarch that tells everyone what to do.
    This scenario has been repeated on thousands of pages of the internet….yet never ever, not once has anyone had an answer or solutions for the tsunami of sick and damaged kids. It happens every time, they attack the messenger and deny our reality as if it just doesn’t exist. And if that fails just attack their spelling, grammar, punctuation, anythng but the actual issue. Again, another reason the battle is being lost….you offer no answers. And especially not understanding, compassion, and empathy. You’re just dickheads of the first order. Audios!

    And not one logical argument was given in that entire wall of diarrhea you just sprayed. When your kids get sick and die, just make sure they stay away from the smart families, or your ass will be in court. Come on natural selection, lets work some magic here.

  185. Easy
    October 31, 2013 at 3:49 am

    recessionstyleforever :
    Thanks so much Kiwimommy! Keep up the fight!
    I will NOT vaccinate my baby

    When your kids get sick and die, just make sure they stay away from the smart families, or your ass will be in court. Come on natural selection, lets work some magic here.

  186. Mike
    October 31, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    Easy, you should quit while you are ahead. You have absolutely no credibility with the tone and language of your comments. This forum does not allow it.

  187. October 31, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    @Mike – I was going to say something similar. It is one thing to disagree – quite another to verbally attack someone (regardless of who’s side you are on).

  188. Easy
    October 31, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Mike :
    Easy, you should quit while you are ahead. You have absolutely no credibility with the tone and language of your comments. This forum does not allow it.

    Implying that credibility on an anonymous internet forum is a desirable quality. Lol, backwards as fuq.

  189. Cecily Johnson
    November 16, 2013 at 3:07 am

    My gorgeous daughter DIED from having caught measles off someone not vaccinated. She was 10 & 1/2 months of age when she caught measles (immunisation due 12 months of age)……gifted child …then at 7 1/2 years of age she was diagnosed with SSPE (Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis)…within 2 weeks, she was blind, unable to walk or talk…suffered for 5 years, passed away at 12 years of age. I gave up work to nurse her full time, financially crippled, costs of medications, equipment etc was enormous, the anti-vax group gave me hell…sending messages & telling me to stop going public….they still do…..I don’t want a child to suffer like I saw my daughter suffer. I often asked the antivaxers to send me money instead of abuse or even donate some hours to nurse my child & really see what vaccine preventable diseases do to children……all refused!

  190. Lawrence
    November 16, 2013 at 11:03 am

    @Cecily – my condolences to your family.

  191. reissd
    November 16, 2013 at 11:18 am

    My heartfelt condolences too, Cecily. It is so sad. Thanks for speaking up to alert others to the danger.

  192. Sara Melas
    January 1, 2014 at 6:09 am

    So if vaccines work then shouldn’t the vaccinated children be protected from whatever the unvaccinated children are carrying? If they are not protected and vaccines aren’t working then this is a pointless argument.

  193. January 1, 2014 at 8:35 am

    If you read the post, you will see that the first story is of a boy who was infected with measles by an unvaccinated child when he was five months, too young to vaccinate. He died after years of agony from a complication of measles. The unvaccinated are at higher risk of preventable diseases. They can transmit them to those too young to vaccinate, with medical conditions that prevent vaccination, and the small percentage that suffer vaccine failure. This post points out that it’s unfair to make others pay for the choices of parents who decide not to vaccinate.

  194. January 1, 2014 at 10:46 am

    @Sara – because no one here has ever said that vaccines are 100% effective, there is always a risk that a VPD can be passed along, even if the child is vaccinated. Mass vaccination works for the primary reason that it prevents diseases from gaining a foothold in vulnerable populations & becoming endemic…..the ultimate goal is to create enough fully immunized individuals to root these diseases out from the general population (and in some cases, like Polio & Measles – eliminate them entirely).

    At an individual level, getting vaccinated vastly reducing the risk of contracting a VPD, and in cases where infection still occurs, lessening the overall symptoms….research is your friend Sara – I would recommend doing a lot more from legitimate sources, not Google University.

  195. Chris
    January 1, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    Dortimi, it is amazing how many come here telling how things are or should be, but these people never even bother reading the article at the top of the page.

    I am curious, Ms. Melas, what is your tried and true method of preventing measles, mumps and varicella in children under a year old? How are they protected before they are old enough to get those vaccines? Do educate us, because we really would love to learn about your time warping Nirvana technology.

  196. Elizabeth
    April 7, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    How is it that you think it’s ok for someone to sue an unvaccinated child’s parents for supposed infection, but you don’t acknowledge that if a child is injured from a vaccine the parents cannot sue the vaccine manufacturer?

    Parents are obtaining from vaccines because there is no recourse if their child if injured, so they would rather not take that risk. Instead of bullying (because that’s what it is) the parents who choose not to vaccinate, why can’t we fight to change the law so that we can sue for damages? Right now there is no incentive for manufacturers to make vaccines safe, they are protected from Toxic Tort , unlike other pharmaceutical products.

  197. reissd
    April 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm

    A. There is a recourse if a child has an injury from a vaccine – there is a no-fault, plaintiff-friendly system in place to compensate them, the NVICP. Victims of not-vaccinating also deserve compensation.
    Abolishing NVICP will work against those few with vaccine injuries, not for them.

    B. To remind you, most parents follow the science and vaccinate.

    C. There are multiple accountability mechanisms assuring vaccine safety. Unsafe vaccines are taken off the market. That’s a pretty strong incentive.

  198. Lawrence
    April 7, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    @Elizabeth – manufacturers are still liable & can be sued if there is found to be legitimate defects (including manufacturing defects, contamination, etc).

    For injuries or serious reactions that can be traced back to a vaccination, that’s what the Vaccine Court was designed to deal with….it is a non-adversarial, streamlined way for these families to be compensated without the expense or time wasted going through the regular Civil Court system.

    If families are unhappy with the Vaccine Court decision, then they can sue in regular Court, if they wish….

  199. Lawrence
    April 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm

    @Dorit – correct, vaccine manufacturers are still liable to the FDA to maintain safe design and manufacturing processes (inspections, post-release surveillance, follow-up studies, not to mention the tens of millions of dollars that are spent up front just to get a new vaccine or drug treatment through the various approval processes – trials, testing, etc).

    That alone seems to be a huge incentive to make the safest vaccines possible – given the time and expense to create even one successful vaccine (or drug treatment).

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  202. jessie
    April 21, 2014 at 11:33 am

    In this case, I believe that the drug companies should have to pay for the injury to the child. I believe this because if the child who receives the virus from another is in fact vaccinated for that virus, then only two options stand for the reason 1) that the child got the virus before he or she was vaccinated, or 2) that the vaccine didn’t work. If vaccines do in-fact work as well as they say then why would a fully vaccinated child have the possibility of receiving that virus in the first place? In such case I would argue that it is the drug companies fault for their vaccine product not meeting the expectations that were promised of it. If a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child or to delay vaccinations, then they are choosing what they believe best for their child. In this situation either side can be argued well. Vaccinations contain poisons such as formaldehyde, aluminum, MSG, and others. These poisons have at times been shown to have drastic effects on the child receiving the shots; ‘Vaccine Nation’ is a good documentary movie on such families. The Merk Manual is one of the largest selling medical text books; on this page it explains a possible reaction to a vaccine. http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain_spinal_cord_and_nerve_disorders/brain_infections/encephalitis.html
    The CDC has a list of many possible serious side effects of each vaccine.

    I do not believe that parents should be reprimanded for choosing not to vaccinate their children. First of all if the other children around the unvaccinated child are fully vaccinated then they should be “immune” just like the CDC says they would be. Secondly this is a personal choice. Either way you are choosing to take the chance of some evil, it is up to the parent to choose what they believe based on the information accessible to them what is the lesser of two evils. Either you choose to get the vaccines and take the chance of a serious reaction to the shot, and possible brain damage to your child, or you choose to not take the shot and risk the possibility of a disease. In each situation there are many factors to consider, and in the end the parents must choose what they believe to be best for their children. After all, is that not every parent’s duty?

  203. Chris
    April 21, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    Jessie: “The CDC has a list of many possible serious side effects of each vaccine.”

    So what is the risk of encephalitis from the MMR vaccine compared to the risk from actually getting measles?

    “I do not believe that parents should be reprimanded for choosing not to vaccinate their children.”

    Actually, they should be chastised for not understanding the risks, and being parasites on the community immunity provided by the responsible people who do vaccinated.

    “First of all if the other children around the unvaccinated child are fully vaccinated then they should be “immune” just like the CDC says they would be.”

    Please post the link to the CDC site that shows vaccination is 100% effective.

    “Secondly this is a personal choice. ”

    Except you are leeching off of your community’s immunity. And your unimmunized child has a much higher chance of spreading an illness to a baby, someone who is undergoing cancer treatment, a transplant patient and someone who failed to get immunity from a vaccine. Like Julieanna Metcalf, who was immunized but it didn’t work. It was some parent like yourself that compromised the community immunity in her school, and almost killed her. How was that a “personal choice”?

  204. Lawrence
    April 21, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    @Jessie – if it is your “personal choice” than don’t be surprised that a certain choice has repercussions, including restrictions around a non-vaccinated child not being able to attend school (or being sent home for up to three weeks if there is a disease outbreak).

    Public Health is just that, Public – so don’t expect that your decision won’t have a detrimental impact on one’s ability to interact in Public.

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