Home > In the News, Science & Research, Vaccine Myths > Study Concludes Concern Over “Too Many, Too Soon” is Unfounded

Study Concludes Concern Over “Too Many, Too Soon” is Unfounded

March 29, 2013

Flu-shotAlthough over 90% of parents vaccinate their children according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s recommended schedule, some still wonder if the number of vaccines their child receives at such a young age is safe.  In fact, nearly 1 in 10 parents have refused or delayed vaccinations because they are unsure of the safety of the schedule, and approximately one-third of parents continue to question whether the combination of numerous vaccines administered in these early months are somehow responsible for triggering autism spectrum disorders (ASD).

While the question of “too many, too soon” is a common parental concern, there is new scientific evidence published today in the Journal of Pediatrics that demonstrates these concerns to be unfounded.  This latest study provides additional confirmation that there is no association between receiving “too many vaccines too soon” and autism and further strengthen a comprehensive review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2004 that concluded there was no causal relationship between certain vaccine types and autism, as well as the recent 2013 IOM Report on Childhood Immunization Schedule and Safety that concluded that the full vaccine schedule was safe.

This new research specifically investigated the concern of antigens – the substances in vaccines that cause the body’s immune system to produce the antibodies that fight diseases.  The study examines the impact of the varying amounts of antigens that children may be exposed to during their first two years of life.  Since vaccines for various diseases contain different amounts of antigens, and various vaccines that protect against the same infectious agents may contain varying amounts of antigens, the research had to go beyond simply counting the number of vaccines a child received to be valid.  Instead, researchers developed a system to adequately account for different vaccine and vaccine combinations by looking at the cumulative exposure each child had to various antigens.

Researchers not only considered the maximum number of antigens each child received in a single day of vaccination, but also the total number of antigens they received by two years of age.  They did this by analyzing data from 256 children with ASD and 752 children without ASD, all born between 1994-1999 and who were 6-13 years old at the time of data collection.  What they found was that the total antigens from vaccines received by two years of age, as well as the maximum number received on a single day, was the same between children with and without ASD.

In short, Dr. Frank DeStefano, the lead author of this research paper, states,

“Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.”

While it’s understandable that parents are concerned about the safety and number of vaccines which are administered to young children, many parents simply don’t realize that from the moment of their birth, a child is continuously exposed to hundreds of viruses and countless antigens each and every day.  However, since parents never actually see these threats, they often can’t imagine that their tiny babies are more than capable of handling a few additional antigens from a vaccine that will actually work to prep their immune system for a possible attack later on.  Once parents become familiar with how a vaccine works, and the ingredients that help elicit an appropriate immune response, they begin to understand that vaccines and their antigens are not harmful in the amounts that they are administered to their children.

What’s interesting to note is that this newly published study is based on the vaccine schedule of the 1990s, during which time the complete schedule included a much higher number of vaccine antigens than a typical child is exposed to today.  In comparison, a two-year old child in the late 1990s may have received numerous vaccines that, once combined, included several thousand antigens.  But thanks in part to several scientific advancements, a child who will be immunized according to the 2013 schedule, will not only receive protection from more vaccines, but will actually receive far fewer antigens.  As few as 315.  With this evidence, it’s easy to see that the results of this study are more than relevant in evaluating the antigen load of the current recommended schedule.

The research published today should help address parental concerns about the number of vaccines that are included on the recommended schedule.  The evidence not only suggests that the small number of antigens that exist in today’s vaccines are safe, but that they are also not associated with any increased risk of ASD.  Hopefully this information, in combination with the numerous other studies that have concluded that the schedule is safe, will provide parents with the information they need to continue to immunize their children.

  1. dingo199
    March 29, 2013 at 9:20 am

    Good news, and I hope this will provide further reassurance for parents thinking of vaccinating their kids.

  2. Maxine
    March 29, 2013 at 10:08 am

    its about time since i have 2 kids with ASD and i know its not from the vaccines, but i have so many ppl telling me that they caused their autism and i’ll fight tooth and nail that its not so hopefully this will shut them up.

  3. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 11:26 am

    Maxine, vaccines may or may not have played a role with your kids. You can not definitively rule them out.

  4. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    This recent evidence shows that probability is very low, Shelly. There is a greater chance of neurological damage from actually getting haemophilus influenzae type B, mumps, measles, etc. than sticking to the recommended vaccine schedule.

  5. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Maxine, please be open to the possibility that vacccines did injure your children. Give them every chance to recover by not giving them any more. For your kids sake, please.

  6. March 29, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    Shelly, what cause can you rule out?

  7. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    We know that vaccines can injure, but you need to assess the relative risks. Measles causes encephalitis in one out of a thousand cases, and pneumonia at a rate of one out of ten. Pertussis can cause horrible rib-breaking coughs for months, and kills infants.

    Now, what you need to do Shelly, is explain exactly how much more dangerous the MMR vaccines is versus measles, mumps and rubella (there is a mumps outbreak in the USA, and large measles outbreak in Wales), and also show how the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (there several places where the latter is common). Please provide the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your answer.

  8. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Ken, how about reading The Vaccine Book by Dr. Bob Sears? I don’t think reading that book causes any autism or vacccine inujuries.

  9. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Kelly, answer my question as asked, please. Do not bring up books as evidence.

  10. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Chris, maybe the vaccines you mention are dangerous in regards to Maxine’s children. Vaccines are not a one size fit all, and they affect everybody differently. Without knowing the health condtions and genetic make-up of Maxine’s children, one can not say which is more dangerous.

  11. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Chris, I wasn’t speaking to you, unless you are actually Ken too? It wasn’t evidence, it was an inside joke for Ken (or Chris) if you go by more than just one name.

  12. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Shelly, then provide the studies that show what genetic markers make a child more susceptible to the vaccines, but allow them to not suffer from measles, pertussis, mumps, etc. Again, it is about relative risks, and you should not make claims without evidence.

    Also, the book is not evidence:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/

  13. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Shelly, if you wish to have a private conversation then use email. Otherwise, this is an open forum and it is not your job to censor discussions, and questions.

  14. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Chris, way over your head!!
    1) I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to Ken. How is it not open if you can read it? If you have a problem with Ken asking me a question, then you have a problem with Ken. Don’t take it out on my for answering him.
    2) I haven’t censored anything. How could I?
    3) I didn’t use the book as evidence for anything, but I thought I already told you that?

  15. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Chris, I don’t have to provide studies yada yada….It’s a known fact that not everybody should get vaccinated. Isn’t that why you pro-vax people are always angry and want us to get vaccinated? To protect those who can’t??

  16. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    If it is a known fact, then you would have the actual verifiable studies to prove that “fact.” Of course you don’t have to answer. But if you don’t provide evidence for your claims we will just assume you made them up.

    And yes, you are trying to censor me by telling me to not respond to you. I am not the one getting angry and making spurious claims.

  17. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Chris, so you are denying the fact that you want me to get vaccinated to help protect those that can not?? So in your eyes, everybody should get vaccinated, and if that is the case, I don’t need to, because you will be protected any way.

    I am not trying to censor you. You responded to me when I was talking to Ken. Here’s is your comment…..”Kelly, answer my question as asked, please. Do not bring up books as evidence.”

  18. dingo199
    March 29, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    Shelly, this is an open forum and anyone can make comments to expand on the topic raised by another poster.

    You piled into this topic urging Maxine to be “open to the possibility” that vacccines did her children. Yet all available evidence shows there is no link, or reason to believe there is one.

    Now you were asked what other things Maxine be open to the possibility of damaging her children. There is no evidence vaccines can, but how about the following?
    Big Macs?
    Cell phones?
    Diapers?
    Spaghetti bolognese?
    Oxygen?
    Perhaps Maxine should remain open to the possiibility one or all of these causes autism, and so she must make her kids studiously avoid them? Or can Shelly provide solid proof they aren’t anything to do with autism?

  19. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    dingo, of course it is open and I never said anything otherwise.

    “all available evidence shows there is no link”?? Not True You can’t even provide “all available evidence” so how can you make that statement?

    I would agree with you that there are many things contributing to autism and it is not only vaccines to blame.

  20. novalox
    March 29, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    @shelly

    [citation needed]

  21. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    novalox, for what exactly?

    There are many contributing factors to autism?
    That you can’t provide “all available evidence”?

  22. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    Shelly:

    Chris, so you are denying the fact that you want me to get vaccinated to help protect those that can not??

    Where did I say you must get vaccinated? I merely asked that you provide evidence for your claims.

    You are saying that we need to be cognizant of the danger of vaccination. I then asked you to present the scientific documentation of the relative risks between vaccines and the diseases. Then you made a claim that certain children have a genetic disposition for vaccine injury, for which I asked for scientific evidence that the genetic issues would make vaccines more dangerous to them than the diseases.

    So, again, citation needed for your claims.

  23. novalox
    March 29, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    @shelly

    You made the assertion, it is your responsibility to provide evidence. Otherwise, we can assume that you are merely posing at best and lying at worst.

    So again, [citation needed] for your claims.

  24. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    novalox….no I didn’t, dingo did. You prove it!
    “all available evidence shows there is no link”
    Post ALL of the evidence please.
    Good luck!
    If you don’t prove it in the next post I will consider you a liar and somebody not to be trusted.
    LOL Hilarious!

  25. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    Chris you pro vaxxers constantly tell me that I need to get vaccinated so as not to hurt the people that can’t get vaccinated. Don’t deny it….you admit that there are people that should not be vaccinated for various reasons and those should include the genetically predisposed. Stop playing dumb Chris. You really like to play games don’t you???

  26. Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    Shelly :
    novalox….no I didn’t, dingo did. You prove it!
    “all available evidence shows there is no link”
    Post ALL of the evidence please.
    Good luck!
    If you don’t prove it in the next post I will consider you a liar and somebody not to be trusted.
    LOL Hilarious!

    Shelly- Here’s the evidence: antiantivax.flurf.net. Everything you need, and then some. Here’s a hint, don’t try copying a tactic if you don’t understand it.

    Chris you pro vaxxers constantly tell me that I need to get vaccinated so as not to hurt the people that can’t get vaccinated. Don’t deny it….you admit that there are people that should not be vaccinated for various reasons and those should include the genetically predisposed. Stop playing dumb Chris. You really like to play games don’t you???

    What’s that supposed to mean? Blind people can’t drive, but does that mean we should abolish cars?

  27. Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    Shelly :
    Chris you pro vaxxers constantly tell me that I need to get vaccinated so as not to hurt the people that can’t get vaccinated. Don’t deny it….you admit that there are people that should not be vaccinated for various reasons and those should include the genetically predisposed. Stop playing dumb Chris. You really like to play games don’t you???

    That does nothing to prove that autism is caused by vaccines. Here’s another hint: “Murders occur” and “Mr. Smith murdered Mr. Jones” are two different claims, proving the first will not prove the second, denying the second is not the same as denying the first.

  28. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    Shelly:

    Chris you pro vaxxers constantly tell me that I need to get vaccinated so as not to hurt the people that can’t get vaccinated.

    And where did I say that to you today? Please tell me which comment that I told you that.

    Again, you made claims, but failed to support them. Here is a list of studies for you:

    http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_aut.asp

  29. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 10:17 pm

    You didn’t say it today Chris…..so you deny it then? You don’t believe that? If you don’t, then I apologize. If you do believe it, then stop playing games.

    Gray Falcon, you don’t make any sense.

  30. Shelly
    March 29, 2013 at 10:20 pm

    Studies from Brian Deer, a known liar…yikes!

  31. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    Excuse me? I am not the one playing games. You are claiming I said something here when I did not, and now you are trying to say “oh, but you believe it!”

    Sorry, that is not going to get you out of providing evidence for your claims, which are now up to three things:

    1: What is the relative risk between vaccines and the diseases?

    2: If children have some genetic issue that makes them react to vaccines, how well to they fare with the actual diseases?

    3: Which comment number above did I say you needed to get vaccines?

  32. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    So I posted a page that has fourteen years worth of studies and all you can do is accuse Brian Deer of a being a liar.

    Okay, now a fourth claim for you to prove. Show where he lied, but it has to be from someone who is unbiased (not AoA or SafeMinds). Perhaps all of the judges that were part of the Wakefield’s lawsuits against him. How did those turn out, by the way?

  33. Dorothy
    March 30, 2013 at 12:35 am

    My foster son came to us at 18 months old and he had never been to a doctor in his life, he was even born t home. He was unvaccinated and severely autistic when he came to us. Did not talk , walk only rock backwards and forwards and bang his head. He is now 7, fully Vaccinated and his autism has improved dramatically. he is walking , talking and attending mainstream school. He is still autistic. I can say with 100% certainty that vaccinations did not cause his autism, nor did they make it worse .

  34. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 1:14 am

    I have tried at least times to congratulate Dorothy on the progress by her foster child, and the spam program has sent each one into the ether. I know she and her son worked hard to accomplish his growth from our own experience. Again, for the fourth time: Yay!

  35. Shelly
    March 30, 2013 at 3:00 am

    1: What is the relative risk between vaccines and the diseases?
    Don’t have all of the information needed to answer this question. It is different for every single person depending on health and genetic make-up.

    2: If children have some genetic issue that makes them react to vaccines, how well to they fare with the actual diseases?
    Again, no way to answer this question, different for everybody… maybe it would be worse with the actual disease and maybe it wouldn’t. But vaccinating them is a ssure fire way of making them sick.

    3: Which comment number above did I say you needed to get vaccines?
    I already stated you didn’t, and then asked if you believe it or not. Still waiting for your answer.

  36. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 7:51 am

    Shelly :
    You didn’t say it today Chris…..so you deny it then? You don’t believe that? If you don’t, then I apologize. If you do believe it, then stop playing games.
    Gray Falcon, you don’t make any sense.

    That’s because I’m smarter than you.

  37. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 7:54 am

    Shelly :
    You didn’t say it today Chris…..so you deny it then? You don’t believe that? If you don’t, then I apologize. If you do believe it, then stop playing games.
    Gray Falcon, you don’t make any sense.

    Shelly, do you understand the concept of “analogies”? I’ll start making much more sense once you learn about them. Short version, you’re no different than someone trying to burn someone as the local witch, without evidence that witchcraft even exists.

  38. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Shelly, answer to what? To a statement I never made?

    Okay, you admit you have no evidence to support your claims.

    I know about genetic testing, and it is not a simple thing. My oldest son has a very severe genetic heart condition that he had surgery for almost a year ago. This condition causes an abnormal thickening of a muscle inside the heart, and in his case almost blocking the aortic valve. Which is why it is the most common cause of sudden cardiac death in young athletes. There are eighteen known genetic sequences that cause this to happen, but the test showed my son had none of those.

    In short when you bring up “genetic” causes, be prepared to cite papers and know that there is still very little known yet.

    Plus it makes no sense that if a child has a genetic makeup that make them susceptible to vaccines (which happens rarely, like one in many million) that they would do better with the disease. In real life instead of getting “permanent immunity”, they would very much get permanent brain injury or death.

    Also, I checked for previous interactions with a “Shelly” on this website, and only found this article. Either you are a sock puppet, or are new to this site. I will go that you have never posted here before and do not understand that if you make a claim, you will be asked for verifiable evidence. Also, changing the subject in order to avoid supporting your claims is also frowned upon. I will not discuss my “beliefs” but only the facts supported by data.

  39. Rita
    March 30, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Great posts, Shelly, I totally agree with you, and glad you’ve got this one covered! Well done!

  40. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Okay, Rita, do you have the evidence for Shelly’s claims? Please tell us the relative risks between the vaccines and actual diseases, and post the studies that show children who have a genetic issue that causes them to be harmed would do better with the actual disease.

    Or are you another sock puppet?

  41. Cristie
    March 30, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    About the study:
    FIrst of all, let’s look at the study itself. Look at the control group:

    “Of the remaining 752 controls included in the analysis, 186 had an SCQ score <16 but had indications of speech delay or language delay, learning disability, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or attention deficit disorder, or tics, or had an individual education plans."

    186 of the 752 controls HAD POSSIBLE SYMPTOMS OF AUTISM. Those were the CONTROLS? Nearly 25% of the CONTROL group may have had possible symptoms of autism???? OOH, great control group there.

    Also, they studied the possible relationship of autism to total antigenic exposure. Most of the scientists who ARE seriously questioning whether vaccines are causally related with autism are not worried about antigenic exposure as they are worried about the effect of things like aluminum and thimerosal.

    And they ADMIT that there is a flawed assumption here: "Admittedly, this approach assumes that all proteins and polysaccharides in a vaccine evoke equivalent immune responses, whereas some proteins actually may be more likely than others to stimulate an immune response. "

  42. Anita Frazier.
    March 30, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    “How evidence of early neurodevelopmental delays would have affected our results is not clear; it might have resulted in lower vaccination levels if parents were concerned about vaccinating their children, or possibly higher vaccination levels through more frequent contact with the healthcare system. ” BUT THEY DID NOT COMPARE VACCINATED VS UNVACCINATED CHILDREN.

    Let’s also look at conflicts of interest: “We thank Dr Paul Offit for his assistance in determining the antibody- stimulating protein and polysaccharide content of specific vaccines.” Surprise surprise, Dr. Offit is involved with this one.

    Aha–now we know why:
    1) the focus of the article is on the relationship between vaccine antigen exposure and autism (rather than the cumulative effect of heavy metals from vaccines)
    2) why there is no comparison of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated (surely if they were combing through the records of three different managed health cares, they could have found some unvaccinated individuals, even back then).

    We also have a MASSIVE lie being told by none other than Geri Dawson. She is the one quoted as saying that the study is proof that there is no connection between vaccines and autism. But the study doesn’t say anything of the kind. In fact, they ADMIT that there is a possibility of autism and vaccines being related in regressive autism!!!

  43. April
    March 30, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Novalara,
    Why the new nym? Had your former persona lost credibility?

  44. Robert
    March 30, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Good for you Shelly. Stick to your guns young lady and keeping telling the truth all of you who discovered it. Thank you for trying to alert mankind so this terrible practice will be soon topped.

  45. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    April, who is “Novalara”?

    Ms. Frazier:

    BUT THEY DID NOT COMPARE VACCINATED VS UNVACCINATED CHILDREN.

    If this is what you require, then design a study that meets your needs and conforms to the ethics outlined in the Belmont Report. Then write a grant to get it funded. I would suggest submitting it to SafeMinds, Autism Trust, Autism Speaks and Generation Rescue. Then go do that study.

    Robert, what “terrible practice”? Can you please answer the question that Shelly was unable to do, mainly the comparative risks between vaccines and diseases? Or are you another sock puppet.

  46. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    @april

    Thank you for saying that I am as intelligent as Lara. Are you jealous?

  47. Diantha
    March 30, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    Chris,
    Just glad you’re upfront about not caring whether or not v- are safe. Why think that our government should care and fund a study?

  48. Diantha
    March 30, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    So, Chris, you’re saying that provaxers have no interest in finding out if there’s more autism in vaxed children than unvaxed? At a time when one in fifty American children is diagnosed with autism, a lifelong severe disability, you’re saying Big Medipharma doesn’t care, full speed ahead?

  49. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    @diantha

    So, you think that multiple government studies stating that vaccines can be considered safe are invalid?

    Again, [citation needed], for your assertion.

  50. Diantha
    March 30, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    Billions trumps child health? Rhetorical statement, we all know that that is indeed the case. Kudos on your side’s success in throwing hundreds of thousands of children into the flames unhindered. Plastering up inept, pathetic studies like this one to try to fool people into thinking they mean something. Bravo!

  51. Diantha
    March 30, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Laralox,
    Who is doing the considering that they are safe? As long as there’s no vax/unvax study, there’s no point to anything else.

  52. March 30, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    Diantha,

    Considering that there have previously been epidemiological studies done comparing rates of autism, asthma, ADD/ADHA, allergies, etc in vaccinated versus unvaccinated children retrospectively across a population, and those studies found that no statistically significant difference between the two groups, other then the unvaccinated group having significantly higher rates of vaccine preventable diseases then the vaccinated group, your vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies have been done. Just because they don’t show what you expect them to show doesn’t mean they aren’t out there for everyone to see. Of course you probably will refuse to accept it for one reason or another, but that doesn’t mean the data is incorrect, only that you refuse to accept it. And please stop trying to insinuate that Novalox and I are the same person, we are not.

  53. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    @diantha

    Ah, still trying to confuse me with Lara…

    Still jealous about that intelligence?

    I thank you for your admission by your use of insult that I am more intelligent that you can ever aspire to be, and wish you luck in trying to attempt more, as it will be an admission by you that you cannot back up your assertions with facts.

    I give you three posts to back up your assertions with facts. If you cannot back up your assertion with actual facts within 3 posts, we can assume that you are a liar.

    So again, [citation needed] for your assertions, since you are the one making them.

  54. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    @robert

    [citation needed]

  55. Ben
    March 30, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    To illustrate the stupidity of even conducting this study, say we change the study’s subject matter but nothing else…

    Imagine reading this news release…

    — Phillip Morris released a new study today debunking the belief that cigarettes cause lung cancer. The study selected 1000 people who have smoked a pack of Marlboro a day for 40 years. They lived in the same area of the country and had similar low risk employment. Of these 1,000 participants, 250 had developed some form of lung cancer, but 750 had not.

    Phillip Morris says that this is “obviously and conclusive proof that cigarette smoking does not – and never has – caused lung cancer.”

    Anyone want to guess the press reaction to that equally ignorant study?

  56. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    @Ben- False analogy. Unlike with tobacco, we cannot use a control group to study vaccinations. Here’s a better analogy: How do you make a control group for a study on the safety of parachutes.

    By the way, pharmaceutical companies would profit more if people stopped taking vaccines: Fever and encephalitis cost quite a bit of money to treat.

  57. March 30, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    @anti-vax crew – better yet, you be the ones who will randomly select the 10,000 or so newborns who will receive placebos instead of vaccines, to be compared against another 10,000 or so newborns (again, selected randomly) who get the real vaccines……and remember, this is a double-blind study, so neither the parents nor children (or doctors for that matter) will know who has been vaccinated and who hasn’t…..

    Do you even begin to comprehend the ethics that are violated here?

  58. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    @Lawrence- I suspect half of the problem is that they are unaware of, or refuse to acknowledge, the fact that vaccines save lives. And it is a fact, we have more than enough evidence to prove it.

  59. Matt
    March 30, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    Give me a break, GF. Really false analogy. There are tens of thousands of children whose parents have wisely decided to give them no vaccines at all. Are they dead? Are they crashing to the earth in red pulp? No, they are not. They would be glad to participate in a vax/unvax study. Dr. Bob Sears says that it would not be necessary to blind the parents, meaning that they wouldn’t know whether or not their children had been vaxed or not. It would only be necessary to blind the doctors examining the children. Lawrence just wants to pretend that it’s necessary because none of you guys wants to know the truth. So I volunteer an unvaxed child. I take him to a doctor, but don’t have any interaction with the doctor. The doctor decides whether or not they think the child is autistic, asthmatic, etc. They write the results of their examination down and send it to test headquarters. Results are compared with those from all the other blinded doctors who don’t know the vaccination status of the children they examine. Your side is flabbergasted to learn that vaccines cause autism, hands down, no doubt, you all have to get another job. Life’s tough for everyone. Children’s lives are saved. GF gets the assignment to go look for bloody (nonexistent) prints on the ground, and doesn’t get to return to headquarters until he has.

  60. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    @Matt- Then measles breaks out and kills several of the unvaccinated children.

  61. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    @matt

    [citation needed]

  62. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    @Matt- What would happen if the results showed vaccines didn’t cause autism? There’s why you aren’t a scientist. You’re too closed-minded to accept the possibility you might me wrong.

    Also, the bloody prints on the ground would be you, after several children die from measles, and your life is taken by angry parents as recompense in blood.

  63. March 30, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @Matt – a self-selected group isn’t a valid comparison either, since you can’t control the variables at that point – it needs to be a random sample from birth, if you want to do it right….and since doctors’ (and schools) wouldn’t know if their patients / pupils are vaccinated or not, you are putting a lot of people at risk….it isn’t about what you want, as much as it is ethically correct. What you want is something that has been done before – it was called “The Tuskegee Study” and it hasn’t be replicated (and shouldn’t be) – you should look it up to figure out why.

    Lara is correct that several large population studies have been done, both here and in Europe that show vaccination status does not show a statistical difference when it comes to autism.

    If you’re so convinced that such a study is necessary (and ethical) why don’t you petition AoA, Autism Speaks, and Generation Rescue to put together such a study and fund it (if they can get ethical clearance). Sounds easy, right?

  64. March 30, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    @Matt – and what are Dr. Sear’s qualifications and expertise in vaccine research?

  65. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    Matt, you are describing the epidemiological studies that have already been done in several countries. Many, though not a large number, of the kids in the large medical databases, like Kaiser in the USA (part of the Vaccine Datalink Project) or in Europe were not vaccinated. Yet, people like Blaxill aren’t happy with those. Which is why Blaxill and friends should pay for a study they do want. Plus be responsible for any child injured by a vaccine preventable disease.

  66. Esther
    March 30, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Sure, Chris, glad to, if you’ll pick up the tab (three mill each for lifetime care) and baby sit twice a week for the tens of thousands of children permanently damaged by vaccines! The state legislatures are already refusing to pay for the care of the autistic children in their states, it’s just too expensive! Let the parents pay! Michael Belkin has already contributed several members for the unvaxed cohort, after his daughter Lyla was killed at five weeks by the hep-B vaccine he and his wife had three more, completely unvaxed, and the boy is the drummer in his band. Check it out, GF, does he look as though he’s fallen from a helicopter?

    When I was in grade school, Halle Hewetson in Las Vegas, Nevada, there were thirty children in each of my classes. Many of us got measles in the spring of first grade, many of us got chickenpox, as well as my brother, thirteen cousins, and everyone in my church choir and girl scout troop. None of us died. Not a single child at my school died in all the years I was there, except for one little girl who died of cystic fibrosis, which was probably not related to vaccines one way or the other. No one had autism either. Every day was sunny, it never rained, and every day was filled with books, pets, games, hiking at Mt. Charleston, camping at Valley of Fire, horseback riding at Fort Lucinda, choir practice, scout meetings, swimming at Lake Mead, and we never ever talked about how much we wished to be saved from the scourge of measles by the invention of a vaccine for it. We just got it, felt awful for ten days, and then got well. My elderly neighbor told me that she had all of the diseases, measles, mumps, chickenpox, and whooping cough too! And she is 85 and still cuts her own grass! Did not crash from a helicopter. Her sister caught smallpox the year after she was born, 1929, at her boarding house where she was going to high school, but the strain that hit the US at that time was mild, and there were few casualties, and her sister was not even pock-marked. Lived to 95.

    Ask your parents, grandparents, GF, I’ll bet you they had many of the diseases. Every one of us is the heir of really good genes, we each have thousands upon thousands of forebears that got most of the childhood diseases, grew up, got married, and had progeny. They didn’t crash into the ground either.

    The German study a couple of years ago showed that unvaxed children had dramatically lower levels of all the autoimmune diseases so rife among the vaccinated.

    The vaccine companies are prodigal with funding for the studies they want to see, and pay for the results they want. We need a disinterested source of funding (like the federal government cut away from the CDC, FDA, and IoM) for studies that would look for the truth, not buttress the case for pushing vaccines.

  67. Esther
    March 30, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    Lawrence,
    By insisting on “doing it right,” you’re insuring that it could never be done, which, obviously, is what you and Proffit want. Dr. Sears has a lot more credentials than you do for opining about vaccine research, and he’s seen a lot more of the fallout from the vaccine epidemic than you have. He says he’s stunned at the new one in fifty figure, and probably feels somewhat guilty for the role he’s played in it. It doesn’t take a degree in rocket science to understand that you can’t vax/not vax children without their parents’ consent (that’s only for the hep-B vax at the hospital when they’re born). Nor that if the doctors didn’t know, it wouldn’t influence their diagnosis one way or the other. And that is the ONLY important thing for the purposes of this study.

  68. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    Esther, if you want to do it your way, then fine. When children suffer from diseases because you decided to use them as lab rats, I’ll make sure their parents and guardians know who’s responsible. Are you prepared to stake your life on this?

  69. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    Esther:

    The German study a couple of years ago showed that unvaxed children had dramatically lower levels of all the autoimmune diseases so rife among the vaccinated.

    Uh, no. It did not say that. Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents actually says:

    ● On the basis of representative KiGGS data, 0.7% of children and adolescents
    aged 1–17 years from non-immigrant families in Germany have never been
    vaccinated.

    ● The evaluation showed that vaccinated children and unvaccinated children
    differed substantially only in terms of the lifetime prevalence of vaccine
    preventable diseases; as is to be expected the risk of such diseases is notably
    lower in vaccinated subjects.

    ● In the largest study in children and adolescents so far none of the often
    anticipated health differences—such as allergies and the number of
    infections—were observed in vaccinated and unvaccinated subjects aged
    1–17 years

  70. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Esther, it is so nice you all survived measles, along with your sample size of thirty. Can you tell me how well Roald Dahl’s oldest child did with measles?

  71. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    Also, Esther, we are taking care of a disease injured child. I would love to see those citations showing vaccines cause more injuries than the diseases.

  72. dingo199
    March 31, 2013 at 11:58 am

    In the time it has taken me to type this comment, 2 children have died from measles.
    How many have died from vaccination in say the last year, worldwide?

  73. Chris
    March 31, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    Esther, what do you have to say to the mothers of these three infants:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6212a3.htm?s_cid=mm6212a3_w

  74. dingo199
    March 31, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Esther :
    Sure, Chris, glad to, if you’ll pick up the tab (three mill each for lifetime care) and baby sit twice a week for the tens of thousands of children permanently damaged by vaccines!

    I gather the autism omnibus looked at the 3000 cases of autism claimed to be due to vaccines, by looking at the plaintiffs with the strongest claims for vaccine damage.

    How did that one work out again?

    My nephew is on the spectrum. His lifetime care costs? Zero.
    In fact he pumps tax dollars back into the system.

  75. dingo199
    March 31, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    dingo199 :
    In the time it has taken me to type this comment, 2 children have died from measles.
    How many have died from vaccination in say the last year, worldwide?

    In fact I have done a quick calculation. The deaths every HOUR are as follows:
    Tetanus: 7
    Measles: 14
    Pertussis: 22
    HiB: 22
    Rotavirus: 51
    Pneumococcus: 55

    That’s 171 deaths every hour from these vaccine preventable diseases, in children.
    I haven’t included deaths from things like Hep B.

    http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/en/

  76. Narad
    March 31, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    Really false analogy. There are tens of thousands of children whose parents have wisely decided to give them no vaccines at all.

    Leaving aside the fact, which has already been pointed out, that (self-) selection bias is a severe problem here, that’s not a big enough sample in any event.

  77. Paul
    April 1, 2013 at 9:19 am

    Google one of many articles on German KIGGS survey released Sept 2011, proving that unvaccinated children have MUCH LESS neurological and/or autoimmune disease than vaccinated ones, type in bibliotecapleyades.net with survey keywords.

  78. Paul
    April 1, 2013 at 9:21 am

    So, Narad, you vote for full speed ahead, who cares about the many thousands of preventable deaths from asthma or peanut allergy? There’s no sample size that would be big enough to suit your requirements?

  79. dingo199
    April 1, 2013 at 9:45 am

    Paul :
    Google one of many articles on German KIGGS survey released Sept 2011, proving that unvaccinated children have MUCH LESS neurological and/or autoimmune disease than vaccinated ones, type in bibliotecapleyades.net with survey keywords.

    Funny, I read the study as showing absolutely no difference between unvaxed and vaxed kids wrt neurological outcomes, or even things like allergic tendencies.
    There was one major difference between the 2 groups however – the unvaxed caught more infections and were more ill.

    “The proportion of children and adolescents who had had pertussis, measles, mumps, and/or rubella was much higher in unvaccinated children than in those who had been vaccinated against the respective disease.”

    http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article?id=80869

    You were saying…..?

  80. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:08 am

    Well, duh, the vaccines reduce the incidence of the targeted communicable diseases, though do not eliminate it. But the occurrence of the diseases you mentioned is desirable in children and adolescents who get it at an age when they are least likely to be dangerous, and give permanent immunity.

  81. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:09 am

    @Tamar: By “permanent immunity”, you’re talking about death, right?

  82. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:10 am

    Dr. Spock in his famous book said that moms should be careful about taking their sick children to visit other families if the child has mu— and will be visiting a man, per— if they will visit a family with a baby, or if the child has sc— fe— and will be visiting anyone.

  83. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:11 am

    He further says that if the child has one of the diseases that no one fears, such as me–, ch– p–, or ru—, that they can go ahead and visit anyone with equanimity.

  84. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:12 am

    Tamar :
    Dr. Spock in his famous book said that moms should be careful about taking their sick children to visit other families if the child has mu— and will be visiting a man, per— if they will visit a family with a baby, or if the child has sc— fe— and will be visiting anyone.

    Good advice. You don’t want to accidentally kill people.

  85. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:12 am

    That was on p. 426 of the 1957 edition of Common Sense Guide to Baby and Child Care. Let’s see if that reference gets through to be posted.

  86. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:13 am

    Notice that even in 1957, he didn’t think there was danger to be worried about from per— for anyone but a baby, same as now.

  87. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:16 am

    Tamar, what did Roald Dahl’s child die from?

  88. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:19 am

    GF, I had bronchitis for several weeks last month, with a severe cough which made me cough for several minutes in a row, without being able to breathe in between coughs, so that the skin on my chest tingled, probably from oxygen deprivation. I did not at any point think that I was going to die from it, although it is likely that someone very old, young, or immunocompromised might have done so. If there were a vax for that infection, we would be hearing every time we turned on the TV how dangerous it was, and how urgent it was that everyone get vaxed for it. A few people die from any disease or infection, but most people just get it, are sick, and then get well. I’d much rather risk any vaccine-preventable disease since my family tends to have such severe reactions to vaccines, and just go through the illnesses, using naturopathic or homeopathic remedies that seemed appropriate. You can do as you like.

  89. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Tamar, what did Roald Dahl’s child die from?

  90. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:28 am

    GF,
    Olivia Dahl died of measles encephalitis. Stacy Scholl almost died from measles vaccine encephalitis, from having gotten the MMR. See congressional testimony by her mother, Wendy Scholl. At 16 months old, she got the measles shot. She was happy, healthy, and normal until the shot. A few days after the shot the mother walked into her room to find her panting, struggling to breathe, glassy-eyed. She lay in a pool of blood coming from her mouth. At the ER they found she had a temp of 107 degrees. She was in a coma and had kidney failure. Her lungs filled with fluid and she had ongoing seizures. Her diagnosis was post-vaccinal encephalitis, and when released from the hospital she was paralyzed on the left side, prone to seizures, and had visual problems. The doctors told her parents they were lucky, she might easily have died.

    If she had gotten normal measles, she had only a one in ten thousand chance of getting encephalitis. Again, you can choose to do whatever you like. My choice is obvious.

  91. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:30 am

    @Tamar- If I killed your children, would it matter? They’re only a few in six billion people.

  92. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:30 am

    Dingo,
    Your deaths per hour calculus is based on deaths worldwide, most of which occur among malnourished children in the Third World, with no access to clean water, much less nutritious food. Do another calculus on deaths in the US from these diseases.

  93. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:31 am

    GF,
    So you want to kill them with a needle? Big difference!

  94. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Tamar :
    GF,
    So you want to kill them with a needle? Big difference!

    You consider the deaths of one in ten thousand trivial, why should the deaths of a few in billions concern you.

  95. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:35 am

    GF,
    Dr. Spock said to go ahead and visit people with susceptible children if your child has me–, ch- p–, ru—, wh– co—, mu—, unless you’re visiting a man who might have one testicle atrophied if he caught m—, or unless you’re visting a baby who might get per—. In all other cases it’s fine to just go ahead and let the other children be exposed to the diseases. Scarlet f— is the only one of the disea— mentioned he doesn’t want anyone exposed to.

  96. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:36 am

    @Tamar: Conclusion drawn- Dr. Spock’s a quack.

  97. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:37 am

    GF,
    Why are you acting so disingenuous? I consider no death trivial, nor any case of disability. But I fear death or disability from vaccines much more than those caused by the natural diseases, though of course I recognize that they can cause tragic results as well. Agaiin, you can do whatever the — you want.

  98. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Ah, I see we are again visited by the sock puppet who likes to use dashes.

    Is Dr. Spock still alive? Wasn’t he writing books when Willowbrook was still open?

    What would you say to the mothers of the three infants in link posted in comment #73?

  99. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:41 am

    I’m reading his book now, and have been very impressed by the level of gentle, compassionate, and humorous detail he displays in explaining hundreds of points, some of which I hadn’t read anywhere else before, such as in some of his advice ini approaching difficulties in nursing a baby. It is not for nothing that he ushered in a whole new way of regarding children and approaching child care. Your choosing to regard him as a quack for not sharing your disease paranoia shows everyone how they should regard you and your opinions.

  100. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:42 am

    Tamar :
    GF,
    Why are you acting so disingenuous? I consider no death trivial, nor any case of disability. But I fear death or disability from vaccines much more than those caused by the natural diseases, though of course I recognize that they can cause tragic results as well. Agaiin, you can do whatever the — you want.

    You consider a one in a million chance more frightening than one in ten thousand. Poor math skills should preclude people like you from voting.

  101. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:45 am

    Chris,
    Come on, have you nothing better to say than to point out again that some people are grievously harmed or killed by VPDs? We get it, we know, the big question now is whether or not even more people are being harmed or killed by vaccines. Dr. Sears says that if it turns out, as it may well, in his opinion (in my opinion it already has), then the vaccines would be much more dangerous than the diseases. It’s not that either choice prevents all death, disease, or disability, no one but you guys attempts to say that it does.

  102. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:47 am

    GF,
    If you lie about the number of cases of vaccine damage, then it’s easy to make your case. If you deny even the most blatant examples, such as those of the Lancet Twelve, then you can, and do, say anything you want.

  103. Tamar
    April 1, 2013 at 10:48 am

    I’m outta here again, pharma sharks. Kind of hate to leave when I’ve lucked out and am on a roll getting things posted.

  104. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Tamar@99: “I consider no death trivial, nor any case of disability.”
    Tamar@101: “Come on, have you nothing better to say than to point out again that some people are grievously harmed or killed by VPDs?”
    You have no integrity either.

  105. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 10:50 am

    Tamar :
    GF,
    If you lie about the number of cases of vaccine damage, then it’s easy to make your case. If you deny even the most blatant examples, such as those of the Lancet Twelve, then you can, and do, say anything you want.

    And how do you hide all the bodies? There would be thousands of deaths to cover up, how would you do it? Where are the bodies?

  106. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Tamar:

    If you lie about the number of cases of vaccine damage,

    Then correct us by posting the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the MMR causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella. Do not use legal court proceedings, because lawyers do not do science.

    You said:

    Dr. Spock said to go ahead and visit people with susceptible children if your child has me–, ch- p–, ru—, wh– co—, mu—, u

    What is with the dashes? And why would Spock want kids to get sick when there are safe vaccines to prevent measles, mumps, pertussis, polio, and influenza? All of which existed before he died in 1998.

  107. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Gray Falcon needs to be banned immediatley. His/her comment #91…..”@Tamar- If I killed your children, would it matter?” Is a threat and breaks many other rules here!!
    Moderator, please do your job!

  108. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    So, Narad, you vote for full speed ahead, who cares about the many thousands of preventable deaths from asthma or peanut allergy?

    Ah, you’re not trying to drag out the “adjuvant 65″ gambit, are you? Hint: it’s not used (nor, to my knowledge, has it ever been, anywhere).

    There’s no sample size that would be big enough to suit your requirements?

    No, the point was that there is no available sample that would suit the requirements of the antivax crowd. A prospective study isn’t going to happen, so that’s the way it is.

  109. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    JK147 :
    Gray Falcon needs to be banned immediatley. His/her comment #91…..”@Tamar- If I killed your children, would it matter?” Is a threat and breaks many other rules here!!
    Moderator, please do your job!

    That wasn’t a threat, it was a hypothetical question. Anyone heartless to declare thousands of deaths to be acceptable losses seriously needs to rethink their priorities.

  110. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    I consider it a threat and it is horrible.

    At the very least, it is an attack, and distasteful.

    “The authors of the blog reserve the right to remove any form of distasteful commentary at their discretion.”

  111. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    @JK147- Look up the word “hypothetical” in the dictionary. Take your time, there are plenty of big words you’ll have to read.

  112. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    Gray, you can use a “hypothetical” example without making it personal.

    The fact you are defensive and acting this way, and NOT apologizing for it, demonstrates that you know it was a threat and that you are in the wrong. Why would anybody believe anything with a character like yours says??

  113. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    JK147 :
    Gray, you can use a “hypothetical” example without making it personal.
    The fact you are defensive and acting this way, and NOT apologizing for it, demonstrates that you know it was a threat and that you are in the wrong. Why would anybody believe anything with a character like yours says??

    I had to make it personal because Tamar cares about nothing but herself and her own family. And people always get defensive when falsely accused. If Isomeone accused you of murder, and then took your defensive reaction and refusal to apologize as proof of your guilt, they would be laughed out of the courts. Unless it was Texas, where you’d probably get the chair.

  114. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    JK147, Tamar was claiming that it is okay dokay for kids to get sick, and seemed nonplussed at deaths in other countries from vaccine preventable diseases.

    Now, since you have decided to become her, please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the MMR causes more damage than measles, mumps and rubella.

  115. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    The difference is Gray, you were not falsely accused. You are not innocent, and didn’t apologize. Again, your true nature is showing and it is very ugly.

  116. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    Chris….I have decided to become her? What in the world are you talking about? Please explain yourself.

  117. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    @jk147

    Concern troll much? If you are here just to lob threats and throw ad homs, and not participate in actual discussion, you are just trolling.

    So, answer Chris’ question in 3 posts, since you were the first one to make the assertion, or be considered a liar like the other anti-vax trolls.

  118. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @JK147- Chris and novalox have a point. Why are you so concerned about my statement, but care nothing about Tamar’s casual disregard for human life? If you were really concerned about such things, why didn’t you call her out first?

  119. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Gray, did Tamar threaten your family?

  120. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    JK147 :
    Gray, did Tamar threaten your family?

    Yes. She considers it perfectly acceptable to let her own be unvaccinated, and in doing so, threatens everyone else, in particular infants and elderly, with her brazen inaction.

  121. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    novalox,

    “Concern troll much? If you are here just to lob threats and throw ad homs, and not participate in actual discussion, you are just trolling.
    So, answer Chris’ question in 3 posts, since you were the first one to make the assertion, or be considered a liar like the other anti-vax trolls.”

    Really? please show me directly where I made a threat or attacked anyone?? Please provide the comment number, should be easy.

    I take your defense of Gray’s actions as support for Gray, so you must agree with him. If you believe making threats on this forum is OK and you support it, then you should be banned as well.

  122. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    JK147, you seem to be either Tamar or her appointed defender. She seems to not care about the preventable deaths in other countries, and does not seem to understand the reason there is very little measles in the USA is due to vaccines.

    So, tell us exactly how much more dangerous the MMR vaccine is compared to measles, mumps and rubella with verifiable scientific data.

  123. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    JK147, you know full well that a hypothetical statement isn’t the same thing as a threat. All you’re after is trying to silence dissenting voices. After all, if you can’t argue with evidence, then go for tyranny. The fact you are defensive and acting this way, and not apologizing for it, demonstrates that you know it was a threat and that you are in the wrong. Why would anybody believe anything with a character like yours says?

  124. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Chris….you would be assuming wrong. I have no idea who Tamar is.

    Again, did Tamar threaten you or anybdy else here? If so, then yes I would have an issue with it. Isn’t it against the comment policy????

    You think it is OK to threaten one’s family because you think that person don’t care about preventable deaths in other countries?

  125. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    The difference is JK147, you were not falsely accused. You are not innocent, and didn’t apologize. Again, your true nature is showing and it is very ugly.

  126. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    Gray…where is the word “hypothetical” here? I must have missed it.
    Here is your statement again….
    “@Tamar- If I killed your children, would it matter? They’re only a few in six billion people.”

  127. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    JK147- There’s an “if” in that statement. That makes it, by definition, a hypothetical.

  128. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    Gray….I guess we could check with the authorities and see if they think it is hypothetical. What do you think? We’ll let them determine if it is considered a threat or not.

  129. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    JK147, Tamar has a posting habit used by previous sock puppets (the dashes). So it does not matter if you know her (or him), you are still trying to derail the discussion. So to get it back on track, tell us exactly how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

  130. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    They probably won’t call it a threat, seeing as elsewhere on this site are actual direct threats, which you have never once bothered to call out. Instead of dealing with evidence, you decide to spend your time trying to get the police to shut down discussion. The anti-vaccine movement will be known as the agents of despotism by your actions.

  131. dingo199
    April 1, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Tamar :
    Dingo,
    Your deaths per hour calculus is based on deaths worldwide, most of which occur among malnourished children in the Third World, with no access to clean water, much less nutritious food. Do another calculus on deaths in the US from these diseases.

    Ok, no problem.
    I’ll do a “calculus” (sic) on the deaths from the prevaccine era of the late 20th century. You know, that time when Americans were healthy and well nourished.

    http://www.drclaudiaanrig.com/research/JAMA%20Historical%20Comparisons%20of%20Morbidity%20and%20Mortality%20for%20Vaccine-Preventable%20Diseases%20in%20the%20United%20States.pdf

    US Deaths in one year from vaccine preventable disease = 12,447
    That’s around 1.5 per hour.

    That OK for ya?

    Want us to turn the clock back to that time?

  132. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Chris,

    “you are still trying to derail the discussion.”

    I am not derailing the discussion. I take offense to Gray’s threats and he should be banned fom this site. I can see that the moderator does not care about the threats which then therefore makes this site a joke and illegitimate; not to be taken seriously.

  133. JK147
    April 1, 2013 at 3:36 pm

    Gray,

    “They probably won’t call it a threat, seeing as elsewhere on this site are actual direct threats, which you have never once bothered to call out.”

    I haven’t read much else on this site as I just came upon it after being on the vaccinate your baby face book page.

    What is your full name Gray? I will check with the authorities if that is what you desire.

  134. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    JK147 :
    Chris,
    “you are still trying to derail the discussion.”
    I am not derailing the discussion. I take offense to Gray’s threats and he should be banned fom this site. I can see that the moderator does not care about the threats which then therefore makes this site a joke and illegitimate; not to be taken seriously.

    Or maybe the administrator sees your comment as what it really is: An attempt at concern trolling. An actual threat is of the form “I will do something”, not “If something happened”.
    PS. I’m not giving you my full name. You seem mentally unstable.

  135. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    @jk147

    OK. you’ve proven yourself a liar.

    I have also recorded your posted threats, and will turn them into the proper authorities if you ever decide to act on them.

    PS: You and your ilk are the only ones to have made threats.

  136. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    Okay, let’s get this back on track:

    Tamar:

    Your deaths per hour calculus is based on deaths worldwide, most of which occur among malnourished children in the Third World, with no access to clean water, much less nutritious food.

    Do you consider Japan and France to be third world countries? A couple years ago France had a measles epidemic that killed nine people. Also from Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan:

    In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    So, again, please give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

  137. Lauren @ the VEC
    April 2, 2013 at 6:45 am

    The Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia has some easily downloadable sheets that discuss the research surrounding vaccine safety concerns including autism (http://bit.ly/VaccinesAndAutism) and too many vaccines (http://bit.ly/TooManyVaccines).

  138. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    What is your full name Gray? I will check with the authorities if that is what you desire.

    What’s yours? Your background might be interesting.

  139. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    In retrospect, the notion that JK147 personally requires GF’s name is absurd. It’s quite simple: print out the “threat” and take it to the police (where you will have to identify yourself). You will either be laughed at hysterically, or they can contact Automattic, which may or may not disclose the IP. At that point, they subpoena the ISP. Problem solved. Get movin’, because we all know that someone of your caliber wouldn’t be just tossing around actual yet bumptious threats.

  140. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    Gray Falcon – If I come over to your house tonight and beat the crap out of you would anybody care?

  141. novalox
    April 2, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    @jk147

    Ah, making another threat?

  142. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    uhh no…according to Gray Falcon, because I have “if” in front of it, it is only hypothetical and should not be considered a threat. Right Gray Falcon?

  143. April 2, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    @JK147, I would care. I consider Gray Falcon a friend. You should care also because due to his disability, I believe your actions could be considered a hate crime.

  144. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    By the way…where’s the first one novalox? I must have missed it. If you can’t produce it within the next comment, you shall be considered a liar and not to be trusted. Right novalox?

  145. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    It feels dirty playing at Gray Falcon’s and novalox’s level.

    Even has Lara concerned. Why didn’t you worrry about Tamar’s children when Gray Falcon threatened to kill them?

  146. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    novalox – are you there? Waiting for you to post the comment I made.

  147. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    novalox…..where are you?

    Here’s what you said about me….
    “OK. you’ve proven yourself a liar.
    I have also recorded your posted threats, and will turn them into the proper authorities if you ever decide to act on them.
    PS: You and your ilk are the only ones to have made threats.”

    Still waiting for you to post my comment where you say I made a threat? You must be a big liar novalox…..or as you would say….”a proven liar”

  148. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    Gray Falcon…aren’t you going to tell everybody that since I used the word “if” it was only hypothetical? I believe that’s what you told me. I guess I could find the comment if I need to.

  149. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    Here it is…comment 127

    Gray Falcon states….
    “JK147- There’s an “if” in that statement. That makes it, by definition, a hypothetical.”

    Just wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.

  150. April 2, 2013 at 5:49 pm

    @JK – now you’re just spamming the blog & I don’t think you’ve actually added one iota of information to this discussion.

  151. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    Lawrence….how is it spamming when I am asking questions and defending myself?
    novalox made an accusation and I haven’t heard from her/him?
    Gray Falcon appears to be lost as well.

  152. novalox
    April 2, 2013 at 6:22 pm

    @jk147

    Try again, troll.

    You threatened GF with a call to authorities, while laughable, would still count as a threat, and then threatened to beat him up, another threat, as well as making foolish attepts to have posters banned although they have not done anything to warrant such, unlike you.

    Like I said, I have made screenshots of your threats, so that if you were ever foolish enough to actually carry them out, I will send them to the proper authorities.

    So, please, keep on making your trollish comments. Show the world how insincere and utterly depraved you are. I take honor that you cannot actually make a post of any worth here and have to resort to threats and ad hominems. It surely makes me laugh at your attempts at insult.

    Again, you can try to sidestep and whinge on the issues, but your posts belie you.

  153. novalox
    April 2, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    @jk147

    Also, every post that you make that attempts an insult or a threat will be an implicit admission that you are just a concern troll, nothing else.

  154. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    You are absolutely hilarious novalox…..

    Let me get this straight….when you sais this about me……

    “I have also recorded your posted threats, and will turn them into the proper authorities if you ever decide to act on them.
    PS: You and your ilk are the only ones to have made threats.”

    You were referring to my so called threat of asking the authorities what they would think?

    So you are turning me in to the authorities if I turn Gray Falcon in to the authorities??

    You just made my night novalox…that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. You are a hoot!!

  155. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    So you consider my first threat as my threat to ask the authorities about Gray Falcon and you consider my second threat when I used the word “if” first? Which according to Gray Falcon himself means it was hypothetical.

    You’re killing me novalox!!

  156. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    Better keep those screen shots novalox…..OMG hilarious!!

  157. novalox
    April 2, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    @jk147

    Thanks for your admission that I am more intelligent that you.

  158. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    how is it spamming when I am asking questions and defending myself?

    You have not asked a single question that has the slightest thing to do with the DeStefano et al. study.

  159. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Wonder why Narad…..I have been attacked since the first comment on here.

    Look novalox is like a little child….she is more intelligent than me.

  160. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    The only reason I ever posted in the first place, was not to comment but to get Gray Falcon booted for threatening the children of somebody with a different view point than his. No excuse for it. Once I made that comment, I was attacked be everybody protecting Gray Falcon. That pretty much sums up every comment here.
    Yeah..I am the bad guy….look how nasty this group is. Incredible!

  161. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    Wonder why Narad…..I have been attacked since the first comment on here.

    Your first comment was an attack. Again, the “I am asking questions” routine is simply risible.

  162. Chris
    April 2, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    The science has been done, the link between vaccines and autism does not exist. It is a dead link… “It’s not pinin’! ‘It’s passed on! This link is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch it’d be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now ‘istory! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LINK!! ” (hat-tip to Monty Python and the dead parrot sketch)

  163. novalox
    April 2, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    @jk147

    Again, thank you for admitting that the regular posters have been more courteous than you have been here.

    Also, whine and whinge all you want, the facts still point out that there is no connections between vaccines and autism, and that you have acted like a spoiled brat here.

    PS: Thanks for your attempts to troll, and your pathetic attempt to insult, pretty much admitting that you have no case at all.

  164. Gray Falcon
    April 2, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    The reason I haven’t commented tonight is because I was having dinner with friends. An event that JK147 is unlikely to experience in the near future.

  165. Gray Falcon
    April 2, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    @JK147- If my statement was so horrible you felt the need to make all those posts, then why did you sink down to my level?

  166. April 2, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    Your first ‘comment’ was an attack. Don’t get uppity and self righteous. You are not innocent in this situation. Everything you have said has been irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    I suggest, everyone, at this point we no longer respond to JK147 because he is not here to discuss the subject matter of this article but to troll the comments section.

  167. Chris
    April 2, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    I would like Tamar, or a friend of Tamar like Esther to answer the question I asked in comment #136. Than you.

  168. JK147
    April 2, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Narad…. You think my first comment was an attack?? I called for Gray Falcon to be banned or at least have the comment removed. If you agree that it is OK to threaten ones family here, than you lose all credibility and respect along with this blog.

    Novalox….I don’t have a case either way. As I said I saw some comments on the Vaccinate Your Baby Face Book page regarding how awful the people were at Shot of Prevention. I was curious and came to chek it out and read some comments. Low and behold it only took 5 minutes before I came across Gray Falcon’s threat on killing children. That’s when I asked that he be banned. But since everybody supports that kind of behavior here, it won’t happen. This is truly a nasty bunch (minus Chris) who tries to stay on topic and doesn’t seem to insult or harass anybody.

    Gray Falcon…. I wasn’t sinking to your level, I was making a point. Which is something you do very often, albeit not very well, but at least you try.

    Lara….again, how wan my first comment an attack? An attack on whom? By requesting that the comment be removed or Gray Falcon banned? You were concerned for Gray Falcon’s safety but not that of the children he threatened. I think it is you who is uppity and self righteous. You don’t care about children or anybody else threatened here.

    This is truly a worthless blog and the moderator should be ashamed for letting it go on. Too bad all of the valuable information you share is over shadowed by the nastiness and immaturity of some. Don’t worry, I won’t be back here ever.

  169. Gray Falcon
    April 2, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    @JK147- I only have three things left to say:

    1) You asked for my real name. That alone is a far more threatening action than anything I’ve done.

    2) When I repeated your statements, I was showing you the fallacy behind “denial is proof of guilt.” When you repeated my statement, you sounded like a jerk.

    3) If you really cared about people who sounded threatening, you would have been all over Edwin Alber and has talk of shooting doctors and scientists.

  170. Narad
    April 3, 2013 at 12:55 am

    Narad…. You think my first comment was an attack?? I called for Gray Falcon to be banned or at least have the comment removed.

    Yes, popping from nowhere out of the woodwork with nothing else to offer but a demand that a well-known commenter be banned for an inchoate reason is an attack.

    If you agree that it is OK to threaten ones family here, than you lose all credibility and respect along with this blog.

    If you think have the slightest concern over losing “credibility and respect” from you, then your are sorely mistaken. I have explained in detail how you can report your imagined threat of violence to the authorities, so put up or shut up.

  171. Narad
    April 3, 2013 at 12:56 am

    ^ “think that I have”

  172. novalox
    April 3, 2013 at 1:36 am

    @jk147

    Why should we care about a concern troll like you? All you are is a someone who resorts to tantrums if you don’t get your way, although I find it amusing that you debase yourself so.

    Also, don’t the the door hit your butt on the way out, although I had some amusement poking at such a simple troll like you.

  173. dingo199
    April 3, 2013 at 4:11 am

    Yes, interesting isn’t it, how JK147 says he is so concerned about people making “threats”?

    One has to assume he promptly reported Edwin Alber (his real name, has website, readily identifiable and traceable by the authorities without needing to ask the ISP) for threatening to line up scientists against a wall and have them shot.

    JK, if you are still there, can I see a copy of the complaint you clearly must have made to the authorities about Edwin? I’d like to use the no doubt marvelous text if I decide to report Gray Falcon for his indiscretion.

  174. Gray Falcon
    April 3, 2013 at 10:45 am

    Equally interest is that if JK147 was really interested in this site’s credibility, why didn’t he just write: “Gray Falcon, you may want to rephrase the statement ‘If I killed your children, would it matter? They’re only a few in six billion people.’ It could be construed as a threat by some people.” Immediately demanding my banishment without making any other comments make it clear what his real intentions are.

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