Home > Expert Insights, Science & Research, Vaccine Myths > Why We’re Still Talking About Vaccines and Autism

Why We’re Still Talking About Vaccines and Autism

March 20, 2013

Nothing gets more attention in the immunization arena than a conversation about vaccines and autism.  While this discussion is one that many feel has been exhausted and more than adequately investigated, vaccine safety concerns continue to remain one of the main reasons parents elect not to vaccinate their children.  Each day, as new babies are born and more children are diagnosed with autism, questions of vaccine safety rush front and center for a new set of parents.

While there is a long history of anti-vaccine sentiment, the suggested link between vaccines and autism was largely prompted by a British doctor, Andrew Wakefield, back in 1998 when he suggested a possible relationship between bowel disease, autism, and the MMR vaccine.  After adequately investigating the topic of vaccines and autism, many parents have come to understand that their concerns are unwarranted.

The bottom line is that the vaccine/autism controversy took hold when a poorly designed study, conducted by a disingenuous Andrew Wakefield who had been paid by a law board to find out if there was evidence to support a litigation case by parents who believed that the vaccine had harmed their children, suggested that there may be a link to autism and the MMR vaccine.  Yet, Wakefield’s fraudulent study was ultimately discarded.  Not only was his study too small to be scientifically significant, but his findings were never able to be replicated and in 2010, the Lancet formally retracted the paper after the British General Medical Council ruled against Wakefield in several areas. Wakefield was struck from the medical register in Great Britain and may no longer practice medicine there.

Unfortunately, while Wakefield may have lost his medical license, he did succeed at instilling doubt and fear into the hearts of parents; then and now.  Some people are still concerned there’s a link between vaccines and autism, and an enormous amount of time, energy and money continues to be spent trying to undo the damage Wakefield has done.  While no study has ever produced any scientifically supported connection between vaccines and autism, doubts still exist for some.

OffitPisaniSinger

Dr. Offit pictured with Alison Singer, Founder and President of The Autism Science Foundation, and Amy Pisani, Executive Director of Every Child By Two

This is why we are still discussing vaccines and autism today.  This is also why both immunization and autism advocacy organizations must continually educate the public about this topic.  As an example, both Vaccinate Your Baby and the Autism Science Foundation provide a comprehensive list of vaccine/autism studies; none of which show any link between the two. However, earlier today the CDC released new information about the prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder and this report is bound to spark conversations in the immunization world today.

Another informative resource that consistently addresses vaccine/autism concerns is the Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism blog.  In 2011 they provided a comprehensive interview with vaccine and infectious disease expert Dr. Paul Offit, in which he responded to some of the most prominent questions people have about vaccines and autism.  Just last week they added another interview with Dr. Offit to addresses specific inquiries they’ve received since the publication of the 2011 interview.

Some of the concerns that were discussed were:

  • Questions regarding vaccine ingredients and how vaccine critics continue to shift the goalposts when evidence proves that these are not linked to autism.    
  • Complaints that address the concern “too many vaccines, too soon,” despite the fact that the actual antigen load is less than it used to be.
  • Concerns about virus shedding, specifically with regards to the flu vaccine and whether or not vaccinated people can infect others.
  • The safety of vaccines in combination with one another. 
  • Challenges of pertussis immunity. 
  • The problem of vaccine misinformation from within the medical community.
  • The ways in which doctors and advocates can reach those who are skeptical about vaccines.

Reading Dr. Offit’s detailed responses to these concerns reminds us that in order to properly evaluate vaccines, we need to understand the science behind them; how they are made, how they are tested, how different vaccines work to illicit an immune response within our bodies, and how effective immunizations can be in the fight to prevent disease.

To learn more about vaccines and vaccine safety, you can register for a free eight week online course entitled “Vaccines” that will be taught by Dr. Offit through Coursera.  This course will discuss:

    1. the history of vaccines, focusing on different strategies used during the past two centuries to make them
    2. the science of vaccines, focusing on methods of attenuation of various viruses and bacteria
    3. the benefits of vaccines, focusing on the impact of vaccines on health both in the United States and abroad
    4. the risks of vaccines, both real and perceived
    5. the controversies surrounding vaccines, specifically that vaccines cause autism, multiple sclerosis, neurodevelopmental delays, diabetes or other chronic problems
    6. answers to common questions that parents have about vaccines, such as the fear that too many vaccines given too soon weaken, overwhelm, or perturb the immune system or that vaccines contain harmful additives or manufacturing residuals

Dr. Offit is not only an expert in the field, he is also committed to educating others through his extensive writing, teaching and involvement with The Vaccine Education Center.  He has been so dedicated to service that all the royalties from the sale of his book Autism’s False Prophets are donated to autism research.   Meanwhile, vaccine opponents are working to keep vaccine/autism fears alive.  They do this so that they can continue to benefit from selling products, supplements and books to those who they’ve convinced autism can be cured and vaccines are to blame.  To avoid falling victim to these inaccuracies, review these helpful tips on how to evaluate health related information online.  When it comes to our health and well-being, we must ensure we are referencing credible sources.

If you want credible information delivered in a manner that you can understand, than be sure to sign up for the “Vaccines” course.  Not only will you learn about vaccines, but you will learn from a  highly respected and experienced immunization expert.  The only thing better is the fact that it’s entirely free!  If you’ve taken the course in the past, feel free to share your thoughts for others in the comments below.

  1. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    I thought his studies have been replicated?

  2. March 20, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    @My3sons – incorrect, his research has not been replicated by any reputable source. Wakefield, himself, refused the opportunity to continue his own research in the UK – instead, he moved to the US to get on the Autism gravy train…..

  3. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    What about this info?
    New American research shows that there could be a link between the controversial MMR triple vaccine and autism and bowel disease in children.

    The study appears to confirm the findings of British doctor Andrew Wakefield, who caused a storm in 1998 by suggesting a possible link.

    Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease – and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus.

    Last night the team’s leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: ‘Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles.

    ‘This research proves that in the gastrointestinal tract of a number of children who have been diagnosed with regressive autism, there is evidence of measles virus.

    ‘What it means is that the study done earlier by Dr Wakefield and published in 1998 is correct. That study didn’t draw any conclusions about specifically what it means to find measles virus in the gut, but the implication is it may be coming from the MMR vaccine. If that’s the case, and this live virus is residing in the gastrointestinal tract of some children, and then they have GI inflammation and other problems, it may be related to the MMR.’

    The 1998 study by Dr Wakefield, then a reader in gastroenterology at the Royal Free Hospital in North London, and 12 other doctors claimed to have found a new bowel disease, autism enterocolitis.

    At the time, Dr Wakefield said that although they had not proved a link between MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) and autism, there was cause for concern and the Government should offer the option single vaccines – instead of only MMRs – until more research had been done.

    The paper – and the confused interpretation of its findings – caused uproar and led to many parents withdrawing their co-operation for the triple jab. Ten of the paper’s authors also signed retractions on the interpretation but stood by the science.

    This is the second independent study to back up Dr Wakefield. In 2001 John O’Leary, Professor of Pathology at St James’s Hospital and Trinity College, Dublin, replicated his findings.

    Last night Dr Wakefield said: ‘This new study confirms what we found in British children and again with Professor O’Leary. The only exposure these children have had to measles is through the MMR vaccine.

    ‘They were developing normally until they regressed. They now suffer autism and bowel disease.

    ‘The Department of Health and some of the media wanted to dismiss our research as insignificant. The excuse was that no one else had the same findings as us. What they didn’t say is that no one else had looked.’

    A spokesman for the Department of Health said they had not read the American report, but added: ‘MMR remains the best form of protection against measles, mumps and rubella.’

    It also mentions that this is the second study to beck up Wakefield’s findings.
    I know Wakefield himself also compiled a list of relevant studies. Were those disputed?

  4. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    *back

  5. novalox
    March 20, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @my3sons

    [citation needed]

  6. March 20, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @My3sons: this paper only shows correlation, not causation. MMR is a required vaccination, thus no surprise that traces of the virus were found. BTW, the autor of the study you cite warns against conclusions you seem to be making. It’s all over the google search for his name and Wake Forest. Looks to me like you’re picking arguments to fit your claims and disregard the facts that stand in the way.

  7. March 20, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @Novalox – my3son’s quote is lifted directly from the article over at Age of Autism. As seen above, the actual researcher is saying something completely different than what the antivax folks are trying to assert.

  8. Sherrypda
    March 20, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    For God’s sake…autism is 1in 88 and the real numbers are even higher! Stop protecting the vaccine myths and pharma profit and start protecting our children!
    In the 80ties we gave only 10 vaccines in total and now it’s more than 38 vaccines before a child turns 2 years old. Vaccines have NOT been adequately studied, never have they done a vaccinated vs, unvaccinated study, why is that??? Don’t refer to pharma funded studies or the so called famous Danish study done by the wanted fugetive Paul Thorson that supposably debunked the link between autism and vaccines. And stop making Wakefield the scapegoat for the suspicions the public has towards vaccines, by now there are way many more doctors admitting a link between vaccines and regressive vaccines. After all one of the side effects of vaccines is brain damage, so give 36 of the to an immature brain and deny what really happens!

  9. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    March 20, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    My3sons,

    that story (the Wake Forrest study) pops up occasionally in Google News, but it is old. The study was presented at a conference, but never published. Since that time, an attempt to replicate the key features of Mr. Wakefield’s study was undertaken:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

    Prof. O’Leary (who is mentioned in your comment) was an author on the study I just linked to. In the press conference for that study, he made it clear, as did the others involved, that this puts to rest the MMR/persistent measles infection/autism-regression+GI_disease idea.

    If one considers Mr. Wakefield’s list of “independent” replications, one finds two things. First, many “independent” replications are by his colleagues–people he worked with and/or funded. Second, many of his supposed “replications” have nothing to do with his vaccine hypothesis. It’s almost as if he wants credit for discovering that autistics have digestive systems.

  10. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    I’m just reading, not making any conclusions. In fact there does not seem to be a clear cut conclusion. It seems the judge in the case of Wakefield’s partner felt the entire investigation of the two was corrupt and needed to be re-examined. Then there is the ruling in the Italian court that awarded compensation the the parents of an autistic boy citing the MMR vaccine was the catalyst for his autism.

    What does seem to be clear is there seems to be conflicts of interest, questionable science, and dirty lobbying on both sides of this debate. Something needs to be done honestly to clear all these questions up, until then I think vaccine choice should be left up to the parent.

    After getting the above responses, I now remember how the contributors to this site treat anyone who asks questions regarding safety and efficacy of vaccines, not very well. I for one love science and modern medicine, but I do not love what big corporate entities have done to modern medicine. They have muddied the waters with their deep pockets and powerful lobby so much one should be considered a fool for not questioning and having suspicions.

  11. March 20, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @my3sons – we are all for vaccine safety & research, as should everyone. What is not appropriate is the spreading of lies and misinformation that almost exclusively comes from the anti-vax side of the house.

  12. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Asking a question is spreading lies? Hmmm… SMH. I did not realize The Daily Mail was anti- vaccine… Which is where I read the above copy and paste.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html

    Easy Lawrence… Don’t make me question my memory about you being one of the respectful and kind contributors on here. It would be disappointing.

  13. My3sons
    March 20, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    I would like to thank you, Matt Carey, for that clear, respectful, and kind response to my questions. That is the way you sway people to your side of the argument. Well done!

  14. March 20, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    @my3sons – I thought I was being respectful. The truth is, we’ve seen many anti-vaccine individuals come here & spread the same lies, misinformation and misinterpretations of data that have been debunked over and over again with actual science and citations.

    As to the Daily “Fail” as it has been called, even in England, the actual response from the researcher is included in my post above – that everyone jumped the gun & the research did not say what people thought it did. So, rather than jump on the bandwagon, more reading comprehension is the order of the day.

  15. March 20, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    @my3sons – I also did see that article was published in 2006 (7 years ago now) – and you would think that if it had amounted to anything, there would have been plenty of follow-up. Since that time, further research has been done, as has been pointed out my Matt Carey, which shows no evidence of the “purported link.”

    And I wasn’t talking about you in particular…asking questions is fine, not listening to the answers, isn’t fine.

  16. March 20, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    About the new “1 in 50″ number, Emily Willingham goes over the background carefully and concludes

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/03/20/autism-prevalence-is-now-at-1-in-50-children/

    You will probably see a lot of headlines about the 1 in 50. Some organizations might even try to use those numbers to scare people, to talk about an “epidemic” or a “tsunami.” But if you look at the numbers and the report itself, you’ll see that overall, the numbers of people born with autism aren’t necessarily increasing dramatically. It’s just that we’re getting better and better at counting them. The next step is getting better at accepting autistic people, seeing their potential, and ensuring the supports and resources they need to fulfill that potential.

  17. March 20, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    @liz – since the vaccination schedule really hasn’t changed all that much over the past decade (and vaccination rates are fairly stable), how exactly can the anti-vaccine folks blame vaccines for an “increase” in autism?

  18. novalox
    March 20, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    @Lawrence

    I was wondering where that quote came from.

    Guess aoa did their “selective editing” again.

  19. Sullivan (Matt Carey)
    March 20, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    Lawrence,

    It’s even more difficult than you lay out to tie the increase to vaccines. Consider this line from the abstract:

    “The magnitude of the increase was greatest for boys and for adolescents aged 14–17.”

    Why would there be an increase in autism rate for older children? Why would a kid who was 11 in 2007 be more likely to be identified as autistic in 2010? It isn’t like someone went back in time and gave him/her more vaccines.

    This result is all through the new study. Increases in rates for kids who, if autism were so obvious, should have been diagnosed earlier but weren’t.

    Consider this example. The autism prevalence estimate for children aged 6 to 9, i.e. were born after thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines, is 1.8%. This is much higher than the prevalence estimates for kids born during the time when thimerosal was in vaccines.

    Multiple prominent figures who promoted the idea that thimerosal caused an autism epidemic predicted that the rates would have dropped by now. It didn’t happen. Time for those people to step forward and start fixing the problems they created.

  20. March 20, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Hi, I run the page ‘cannabis for autism’ on facebook. As you can imagine, the sort of people the page appeals to are very vulnerable to anti-vaccine misinformation and as you can probably guess, while I realise that vaccines are an important medicine I’m no expert so I struggle sometimes. It would be good to know if it would be okay to call on you guys to swoop in and help if I ever get overwhelmed?

  21. March 20, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    @Sherrypda
    “Vaccines have NOT been adequately studied, never have they done a vaccinated vs, unvaccinated study, why is that???”

    That simply isn’t true. That’s what you’ve been told by anti-vax zealots. The truth is that epidemiological studies have shown that vaccines–or lack of them–have no effect on rates of autism. Vaccines do not cause brain damage. Vaccines save lives. More and more doctors are *not* admitting a link between vaccines and regressive vaccines…whatever that means. It gets tiresome refuting these tread-worn assertions year after year after year.

  22. March 20, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    @gomer – welcome to the club. It gets old rather quickly, but the same old lies keep rearing their ugly heads…..

  23. Kris Haynes
    March 20, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    Dr. Wakefield’s study was about bowel disease in children with autism. That study lead him to the MMR vaccine connection as was suggested by the parents of the children studied. There was never any fraud proven and in fact. all of the parents support Dr. Wakefield today. His co-author of the study, John Walker Smith, has already been exonerated in court and Wakefield is currently in court and will also be exonerated one day.
    The study has been duplicated several times… all of the studies are referenced here http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/05/peer-reviewed-papers-support-findings.html

    You are correct that autism has multiple causes, genetic and environmental, and toxins in the vaccines are definitely part of it. There are in fact many, many studies showing a correlation between vaccines and autism. You are perpetuating misinformation about this serious health issue and I suggest you do more research before absolutely denying a vaccine-autism correlation.

  24. Chris
    March 20, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    Ms. Haynes, it has not been independently replicated, since as noted above the papers were either by Wakefield or colleagues and there are several studies that dispute whatever Wakefield claimed to find. In the future please use actual scientific citations and not links to websites.

  25. novalox
    March 20, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    @kris haynes

    [citation needed]

  26. sherrypda
    March 21, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    POUL THORSEN is a wanted fugitive & the researcher who authored 21 of the 24 government studies that the CDC says prove vaccines don’t cause autism. He stole over a million of the research money (U.S. tax dollars), was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud & Money laundering, committed forgery, purchased a new home, a Harley, an Audi, an SUV, and fled — yet the CDC continues to base their claim of no link on his research. He is top on the list of the Inspector General’s “Most Wanted” list. Still think vaccines don’t cause autism now?

  27. Gray Falcon
    March 21, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    @sherrypda- Yes, we still believe vaccines don’t cause autism. What you just revealed about Dr. Thorsen was a) what we already heard, b) fabricated in many areas, and c) utterly irrelevant.

  28. Chris
    March 21, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    Gray Falcon, and to add what you said: Sherrypda, it is completely false that Thorsen authored those 21 studies. He had a low level authorship in two studies.

  29. novalox
    March 21, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    @sherrypda

    Even if Thorsen was head of the authorship, does that change the science?

    Or, going by your “logic”, does that mean that you admit that the “vaccine causes autism” idea is utterly wrong because andrew wakefield since it has been proven that he had had multiple COIs, was engaged in fraudulent research, and was stripped of his medical license?

  30. Chris
    March 21, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    novalox, doesn’t that also apply to (ex) Dr. Geier and his son?

  31. lilady
    March 21, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    Sherrypda: Is it any wonder that you are questioned about your posts…when they come from the anti-vaccine, anti-science playbook?

    Most, if not all of your remarks are the same tired pseudoscientific conspiracy-filled articles written by the *journalists* on that notorious anti-vaccine blog.

    That same notorious anti-vaccine blog and their groupies have made a heroes out of the disgraced former medical doctors Andrew Wakefield and Mark Geier.

    Have you read the GMC decision which details the multiple reasons why Wakefield’s medical license was revoked?

    Now, you can own up to your sole source of information for vaccines and autism…or clutch your pearls and flounce off.

  32. Chris
    March 21, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    It seems that the reason we are still talking about vaccines and autism is because of those who continue to spread obvious lies. It is quite easy to look up that Poul Thorson was just a contributing author on two of the over two dozen studies (and neither were paid for by the CDC or any pharmaceutical company), yet she goes and tells us some whopper about him being the lead author of over twenty studies. Good grief.

  33. lilady
    March 22, 2013 at 1:46 am

    @ Chris: Don’t you get weary of providing citations for each and every bogus study that anti-vaccine posters come up with here? I know that I do.

    Paul Thorsen is accused of submitted bills on CDC letterhead for expenses, supplies and equipment that were not purchased and therefore no reimbursable. IIRC he was charged with mail fraud and money laundering i.e. “padding his expense account”. That notorious anti-vaccine blog has already convicted Thorsen (in their own collective conspiracy minds), when in fact, Thorsen’s criminal cases have not been adjudicated.

    Meanwhile, the groupies who post here, conveniently “forget” that Wakefield was found guilty of hiding his COIs including payments up front for his “expert witness testimony” by the lawyer in the U.K. who was preparing to sue the manufacturer of the MMR vaccine, in the amount of $ 750,000 USD, even before he ever saw the 12 children in his study. Eleven of the 12 children in Wakefield’s “study” were referred to Wakefield by Richard Barr, the attorney who used public tax dollars for Wakefield’s hired gun “expert witness” testimony even before Wakefield developed his bogus diagnosis of “autistic enterocolitis”. Many of those lawyer-referred “study” subjects, were in turn referred to Mr. Barr by JABS another notorious anti-vaccine organization which recruited the “study” candidates.

    Other COIs that Wakefield failed to disclose to the Royal Free Hospital, were the two offshore companies set up in his wife’s Carmel Wakefield’s name to develop an alternative single antigen measles vaccine alternative and to develop and market lab testing kits to test for “Autistic Enterocolitis”.

    He was found guilty of falsifying childrens’ medical charts and found guilty of ordering painful, invasive, dangerous not-medically-indicated tests, such as unnecessary blood draws, bowel cleansings, biopsies and MRIs and lumbar punctures.

    I keep posing the question and requesting citations/links for the medical indications of performing a lumbar puncture…and none of anti-vaccine posters here have ever provided answers to my question…no less a citation/link for lumbar puncture indications.

    The parents of most of Wakefield’s study subjects claim “foul” because they weren’t called to testify…which is utter b.s. Why didn’t Wakefield call them to testify before the GMC? If I submitted by defenseless child to Wakefield, I might be “reluctant” to offer testimony that “might” result in a charge of perjury.

  34. March 22, 2013 at 11:02 am

    cannabisforautism :
    Hi, I run the page ‘cannabis for autism’ on facebook. As you can imagine, the sort of people the page appeals to are very vulnerable to anti-vaccine misinformation and as you can probably guess, while I realise that vaccines are an important medicine I’m no expert so I struggle sometimes. It would be good to know if it would be okay to call on you guys to swoop in and help if I ever get overwhelmed?

    PS: The vaccine-autism myth is dead as a duck: http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.com/news/more-top-news/single-view/airway-abnormality-discovered-in-children-with-autism/8832cbe2be.html

  35. Lucy
    March 23, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Eventually the truth will come out, but there’ll be Billions of $’s to pay out in compensation, so they’ll have the change the law beforehand and place a limit to the maximum payout per Autistic child.

  36. March 23, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    @Lucy – what what truth is that? Because the evidence has never supported a link between vaccines and autism…..

  37. Chris
    March 23, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    The science has been done, the link between vaccines and autism does not exist. It is a dead link… “It’s not pinin’! ‘It’s passed on! This link is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch it’d be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now ‘istory! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LINK!! ” (hat-tip to Monty Python and the dead parrot sketch)

    And that’s the truth!

  38. March 24, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Notice we seem to be getting a lot of spam on here now?

  39. Christopher Haynes
    March 24, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    The science is never done.

  40. novalox
    March 24, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    @chirstopher haynes

    Considering that there have been numerous, well-designed studies that show that there is no support for a vaccine-autism link, the few that supposedly do are of extremely poor quality, cannot be independently verified, and often are performed with obvious bias or performed by individuals with dubious scientific veracity, we can say that there is no such link.

    Besides, you made an assertion back up a few post, but have not actually given any proof of your assertion.

  41. Christopher Haynes
    March 24, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    novalox…..the science is never done. Sorry you disagree and closed the book.

  42. Gray Falcon
    March 24, 2013 at 11:54 pm

    @Christopher Haynes- Would you mind me throwing you off a cliff to see if gravity still works?

  43. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 12:59 am

    Mr. Haynes, would you please provide some real evidence? Though make sure none are done by anyone who has had their medical license revoked. Examples include those with surnames of “Wakefield” and “Geier.”

  44. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 1:08 am

    Third time:

    Mr. Haynes, if you don’t like the science as it is, find a way to pay for studies that satisfy you. This blog seems to be restricting even the titles of papers by researchers paid by SafeMinds, so I give up trying to post them.

    Needless to say, look for a paper by Mady Hornig on PLoS ONE in 2008.

  45. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 1:12 am

    Just out of mild curiosity, Mr. Haynes are you related to “Kris Haynes” who posted on this thread? Personally I think that is kind of cute, like a married couple I knew who were Terry and Teri.

  46. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 2:38 am

    @christopher haynes

    [citation needed].

    Why should doctors and scientists keep pursing a hypothesis that vaccines cause autism when the vast majority of evidence shows that there is no relationship?

    So, provide some evidence; otherwise, it makes you look like you are stalling.

  47. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 10:29 am

    I said the science is not done. There are current studies happening. Gray Falcon, your example is ridiculous, or maybe there is still more to learn in reagrds to gravity? I’m glad you people know everything conclusively. Instead of praying to God, maybe I should just come to this page and bow down to you know-it-alls. When you think you know everything, guess what happens? You usually end up looking like a fool.

  48. March 25, 2013 at 10:35 am

    @ChrisHaynes – how about pointing to evidence that vaccines & autism are linked? Over the past couple of decades, multiple studies have been done – on populations, on individual and multiple vaccines, etc, and nothing has been proven or even connected, so what exactly will prove to you that there is no connection? What level of evidence is necessary before we stop wasting money on a failed hypothesis and move to areas of more potential and interest?

  49. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Mr. Haynes:

    There are current studies happening.

    Do tell. Where and by whom? And why? The MMR vaccine has been in use for over forty years, surely there has been enough study on it. I have been unable to post study titles and journals, so I’ll just list their PMIDs (just go to PubMed and plug the numbers into the search box): 22521285, 22080172, 19952979 and 18769550.

    How would those new stuides help the kids who have autism and need services? How would it help the one in ten who end up in the hospital from measles due to the fearmongering about the MMR vaccine?

    If we were “know it alls”, why are we asking you questions?

  50. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    @christopher haynes

    Congratulations on making yourself look like a fool.

    As stated above, [citation needed] for your assertions.

    Otherwise, it makes you look like you are acting childish since you are not getting your way.

  51. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    novalox….The only statement I made was that I don’t know everything and don’t claim to. If you don’t think there are studies being done right now with regards to vaccines and autism, then you are the fool.

  52. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    Lawrence….nothing had been connected? Hahahaaaa

    Chris….”surely there has been enough study on it” Really? With all of the questions still surrounding vaccines? Glad you are not in charge.

  53. March 25, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    @Christopher – would love to see your citations for this “research.” Also, what has been done thus far that would make you believe there is any validity at all to the “autism – vaccine” hypothesis?

  54. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Mr. Haynes, I posted the PubMed Identification Numbers of four very recent studies that show no relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism and/or encephalopathy. Since you have presented exactly zero citations, I have presented infinitely more than you (since four divided by an number approaching zero tends towards infinity).

    Now again, where are those mystical studies you keep mentioning being done, by who and why?

  55. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    What do your citations have to do with on-going studies?

    if you choose to believe therre aren’t any current studies happening so be it, but it really makes you look silly Chris.

  56. March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    @Christopher – where are your citations for the “on-going” studies? And when those studies come back showing no link, what will you say? More research is necessary?

  57. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    They are more recent studies (some from 2012) that show no relationship between autism and encephalopathy. They are just more nails in the coffin of Wakefield’s fraudulent claims. He only wrote that 1998 Lancet paper because he was paid handsomely by a lawyer with UK taxpayer legal funds, and to cash in on some silly transfactor business he had with Fudenberg and Singh. And, of course, he had almost twenty years of MMR use in the USA to gather data from, but no one seem to be able to find those 1970s and 1980s studies showing autism increased in the USA after the MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971.

    And until you tell us something about those “ongoing studies”, we will just have to assume you are just making it up. Because in the over forty years since the MMR vaccine was introduced in the USA, there has been no real credible evidence to support a connection to autism.

  58. Christopher Haynes
    March 25, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    Chris….you are flat out wrong. There are thousands of parents who know about vaccines and autism.

  59. March 25, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    @Christopher – there it is…..took you long enough. So, no real evidence or science, right – just your feelings? I guess we’ll be waiting for your citations and evidence for quite some time, won’t we?

  60. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    @chrostopher haynes

    Thanks for admitting that you are a fool and that I am much, much more intelligent from you.

    Insults from the likes of you are an admission that you have no evidence for your opinion, and therefore, we can consider you just another liar.

    So, where are these “studies”: you keep harping about, yet never post?

    @Lawrence

    Judging from christopher’s non-comments, we’d be waiting for quite some time.

  61. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    Christopher Haynes :
    Chris….you are flat out wrong. There are thousands of parents who know about vaccines and autism.

    Amen to that & truth is coming out as on the news this day says many are not vaccinating. They are wising up finally, thank goodness.

  62. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    @sad grandma

    [citation needed]

  63. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    Ask any of the many thousands upon thousands of parents, family members & friends who are witnesses of vaccine injured children should be all the citation needed. They are the voices of those who cannot be heard & they will be heard & justice served very soon.

  64. March 25, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    @Sad – sadly, there is no evidence of which you speak…..autism is not a vaccine-injury.

  65. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    Sure, Sad Grandma, match up those children to the hundreds of thousands that die from measles on this planet each year.

  66. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    I never said a word about autism. Vaccine injury includes many differing reactions, even death & autism is only one result of the ignorant & barbaric practice that will soon be a thing of the past as the world wakes from the deception & cover up.

  67. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    Come on, tell us exactly how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella (in the early 1960s there were tens of thousands of cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome). But please use actual citations, not unverifiable stories.

    And do look at the title of this article.

  68. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    I did see the title & truth is truth so how about you learn & let live>>>

    http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/mmr.htm

    Not that we expect closed minds to do the proper research other than trying to discredit those who do as well as all the info at that link as well as any credible info or evidence sent by those trying to teach those void the facts. But for those willing to study up instead of listening to the rhetoric this is a good start.

  69. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    I meant real citations, not the opinions of a random people. Just post the PubMed Identification Number of those citations like I did above (this blog is having issues with posting paper titles).

  70. DB
    March 25, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    Mothers know when they take a child to the doctor, he gets immunization and then he comes home and regresses in development that something is wrong. Later they call her child autistic, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out but vaccine makers have huge interests to protect and a good reason to lie

  71. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    Chris :
    Sure, Sad Grandma, match up those children to the hundreds of thousands that die from measles on this planet each year.

    What’s wrong Chris? Did I stump you so you held my comment? Can’t take the heat? My other comments went right through. Gotch ya, huh? Or are you looking for those citations on that challenge? Many are watching you Chris.

  72. Jjjusticechem
    March 25, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    Can you guys tell me how they screen the tissue that the virus is grown in? I worry that there could be contamination in the vaccines being large scale manufactured. On the other hand could you also give some argument regarding the recent research on mitochondria dysfunction/disease and the possible link to vaccines and autism? They are finding that the numbers for mitochondria problems is much higher than thought, estimated at 1 in 50.

  73. Sad Grandma of vaccine damaged children
    March 25, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    Damn. I spent time writing what you just censored. Big tell & I’m pissed. You are not fair, Chris. I challenge you to allow my sincere comment to post & you respond or lose any credibility with those you have fooled. This is not a game & I will post to thousands in groups if you don’t start being fair & shut you down.

  74. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    If that is so DB, then the Autism Omnibus proceedings would have ended differently. Apparently one set parents missed the signs that were evidence in videos before the child received the “dreaded” MMR vaccine.

    I am still waiting for someone to come up with verifiable data showing the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Plus the data from the 1970s and 1980s showing autism increased in the USA with the introduction of the MMR there in 1971. Until that is revealed, then the only viable reason for Wakefield to pursue the “MMR/autism” bit was the large about of UK taxpayer funded legal fund cash from Richard Barr.

  75. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    Sad Grandma, I have had multiple comments I have written go into the ether. I even mentioned them, which is why I said to use the PubMed Identification Numbers. Those apparently work.

  76. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Sad Grandma:

    Did I stump you so you held my comment?

    My name is not “Christine”, I have no power on this blog. I have had several my comments disappear.

  77. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    Jjjusticechem, before we can even attempt to answer your goal post moving question, you must provide the answer to my question: the PubMed Identification Numbers (PMID) of the articles that show the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

    If you have information on recent research, provide some information on who, what, where and why. Otherwise we have no idea of what you are asking.

  78. novalox
    March 25, 2013 at 11:18 pm

    @sad grandma

    Like I said before, [citation needed].

    And again, making threats is no way to make anyone believe your assertions.

  79. Chris
    March 25, 2013 at 11:37 pm

    Come one, guys. Everyday 380 die from complications due to measles. And yet, none of you (and your sock puppets) will answer my questions.

  80. March 25, 2013 at 11:48 pm

    Check…

  81. March 25, 2013 at 11:48 pm

    Check 1 2…

  82. March 25, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    Funny it didn’t work before… Oh well… I don’t have the time to participate in this group think circle jerk tonight. I would love to break it up a bit but I don’t get paid for this and I need to be at work in 4hrs. Goodnight.

  83. Kathy
    March 25, 2013 at 11:56 pm

    Once you accept the basic premise that it’s okay to actively hurt some people for the (often theoretical) good of other people, even if you only intend to sort of “accidentally” let a few be hurt (e.g., through “very rare” vaccine damage) the logical ends of that thinking include further harm, injury, murder and even genocide, usually for ever-expanding groups of people other than “one’s own.”

    Thus, people report that friends and family members are “sorry” that our children were harmed, but they also see it as a necessary evil that other children (ours) should suffer so that their own children may be protected.

    And again, it’s one thing to accept a relatively small risk to one’s own child for a relatively large benefit to that same child, but it’s morally wrong to knowingly impose a risk on any child that is greater than the potential benefit to that child.

    By that measure, much (most, or possibly all) multiple infant vaccination, under most circumstances, is morally wrong when performed by a knowledgeable person who fully understands that the risk for damage to the individual outweighs any potential benefit for that individual.

    And that would pretty much describe current immunization practices in the U.S., U.K., and certain other “civilized” countries.

  84. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 12:03 am

    Kathy, citation needed.

  85. March 26, 2013 at 12:31 am

    I just had to rock my unvaccinated two month old back to sleep and as I was rocking him in the chair I thought to myself: “What do these freaks care if I don’t vaccinate my child? If they are so confident that vaccinations work they can insist on vaccinating their own and if anything they will be a health threat to my child. Not mine to theirs.” Reasonable enough thought isn’t it…?

    Just keep your kid away from mine when it is shedding the virus it was vaccinated for.

    Alright… Off to bed…

  86. March 26, 2013 at 12:35 am

    Say…. anybody else have kids that is posting here?

  87. Say NO to vaccines!
    March 26, 2013 at 12:55 am

    I really can’t take an article seriously when Dr. Proffit is mentioned in a positive way. Barf.

  88. March 26, 2013 at 1:01 am

    I know too many people who have been vaccine injured including myself who had a possible stroke after the hepatitis B vaccine. I will not debate with the people who think vaccines are perfect. No amount of proof regarding dangers of vaccine will be good enough because in their minds parents are making it all up, doctors who risk their careers and speak out are liars. Hell, scientist who are suing Merck for lying about the effectiveness of the Mumps vaccine are not even credible in their eyes. All these people have are lies that polio and smallpox have returned to the United States because of non vaxers. As I have stated a million times across the web I challenge all pro vaxers to spend a week with a family dealing with vaccine injuries.

  89. March 26, 2013 at 2:31 am

    @the various anti-vaccine commenters here:

    Please stop repeating falsehoods that have already been debunked a few hundred (or more times) – no one here has ever said vaccines are perfect, in fact, we recognize that vaccine reactions do exist, are tracked, and a system is in place to allow for compensation based on actual evidence and science.

    As for all of the other lies and falsehoods, please visit:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Which answers pretty much the rest of your false accusations as well.

  90. March 26, 2013 at 6:00 am

    The above post has a link to a denialist page; denialists swore that smoking was fine and citied the same kind of junk. But at least there is an admission that vaccines can and do have adverse effects – which if you read them include Autism, Encephalopathy, Siezures and Death to name but a few; AND they are NOT tracked accurately NOR does the compensation body cover all victims although it has paid out Billions to a few cases where the denialists even still carry on saying it is not autism but autism like symptoms (which is what Autism is).
    and just to bring a measure of intelligence here, here is the link to nearly 600 professional scientific and medical citations that DO show just how deadly and damaging vaccines are. http://www.tacanow.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/autism-studies-april-2008.pdf

    Galileo was made to recant, that did not undo the reality of what he said. The Earth never was flat but that was policy until the likes of Columbus. The Earth was the “centre of the universe”, by common assertation even though the science was demonstarted as far back as ancient Greece – so saying that something as trite as a denialist link shows or proves anything is very very silly.

    Finally Nobody ever asked the now millions of parents of vaccine damaged children if it was OK for them to be the small percentage of flawed and fatal side effects.

  91. March 26, 2013 at 6:09 am

    @Toby – actually, there was plenty of good evidence since the 1940’s that smoking was harmful (the vast majority of it from legitimate researchers – both from educational institutions and the government).

    There is no legitimate research that shows that vaccine are,harmful, in fact, vaccines are some of the safest, most heavily monitored / tracked, and effective treatments that we currently have – and the only treatments that actually prevent the spread of diseases (like measles, for example, which is one of the most contagious diseases on the planet).

    And Toby – if there were “millions” of these reactions, they would be extremely easy to track – instead, we know that the rate of serious vaccine reactions is vanishingly small (1 in 1mil or 1 in 10mil) and in some cases, impossible to statistically link to vaccines because it happens so infrequently that other causes could not be ruled out.

    Vaccines are safe, effective, and much better than the rate of serious side-effects that occur with the natural diseases – which can occur (including death) in as little as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 cases. If you actually read the research and knew what you were talking about, this wouldn’t even be a discussion.

    As to the evidence presented on Todd’s website – please refute his presentation, if you are able.

  92. novalox
    March 26, 2013 at 10:34 am

    @toby

    Looking at your link, it contains several of the typical anti-vax talking points, several of which have been debunked, contain studies which are poorly done, do not actually support your viewpoints, or are without any scientific evidence to back them up.

    Also, [citation needed] for your claim of “millions of vaccine-damaged children”

  93. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    The reason the MMR was causing autism and other neurological damage in children in the UK in the nineties was because it was a bad version of the vaccine that Canada had refused to use after it had caused too many cases of aseptic meningitis in children. The UK government bought it cheap (The name was just changed), never telling parents, and only abruptly withdrew it from public use after it eventually performed its own tests which showed too many children were being harmed. Dr. Wakefield was the scapegoat to hide the scandal from public view. Moral: your government may lie to you in the interests of vaccine promotion aka in their view public trust.

  94. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    @CWaldman: Any evidence for your accusations?

  95. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    I first read of it in Martin Walker’s essays, including “The Urabe Farrago” now at wesupportandywakefield.com/documents. Andrew J. Wakefield’s book, “Callous Disregard, Autism and Vaccines–The Truth Behind a Tragedy,” (Skyhorse Publishing NY 2010), Ch. 4, “The Whistleblower,” pp. 65-76. Dr. Alistair Thores, Edinbourgh, Scotland, was the whistleblower. He had worked as “principal program immunization advisor in Ontario and was closely involved with the MMR vaccination program. He had been actively recruited to join the Scottish Office as a senior medical officer, particularly to advise on evolving UK MMR vaccination policy.” (Wakefield, p. 65). Canada withdrew its Urabe strain vaccine after six months due to problems; the UK purchased it from Smith-Kline-French-Beecham (SKFB) (then called), Trivirix was renamed Pluserix and after only a 3 week clinical trial foisted on unsuspecting UK parents and children. SKFB was given immunity from liability.

  96. March 26, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    I hate to break up this discussion with scientific fact, but when I run the HPV16-L1 protein sequence through the BLAST search at the NIH, it indicates that the GARDASIL HPV vaccine will go after the body’s own (self) BRACA2 Gene (and many others), thus causing an autoimmune disease.

    Here is the genetic sequence I used:

    >unnamed protein product
    MEVTFIYILVITCYENDVNVYHIFFQMSLWLPSEATVYLPPVPVSKVVSTDEYVARTNIYYHAGTSRLLA
    VGHPYFPIKKPNNNKILVPKVSGLQYRVFRIYLPDPNKFGLPDTSFYNPDTQRLVWACVGVEVGRGQPLG
    VGISGHPLLNKLDDTENASAYAANAGVDNRECISMDYKQTQLCLIGCKPPIGEHWGKGSPCNNVAVNPGD
    CPPLELINTVIQDGDMVDTGFGAMDFTTLQANKSEVPLDICTSICKYPDYIKMVSEPYGDSLFFYLRREQ
    MFVRHLFNRAGAVGENVPDDLYIKGSGSTANLASSNYFPTPSGSMVTSDAQIFNKPYWLQRAQGHNNGIC
    WGNQLFVTVVDTTRSTNMSLCAAISTSETTYKNTNFKEYLRHGEEYDLQFIFQLCKITLTADVMTYIHSM
    NSTILEDWNFGLQPPPGGTLEDTYRFVTSQAIACQKHTPPAPKEDPLKKYTFWEVNLKEKFSADLDQFPL
    GRKFLLQAGFKAKPKFTLGKRKATPTTSSTSTTAKRKKRK

    I used PROTEIN BLAST, and “HUMAN” as ORGANISM. This, together with the pathology findings from two deceased teens with traces of the proprietary Protein Fragments from Gardasil vaccine in cerebral vessels and hippocampus tissue, lead me to believe someone has a lot of explaining to do in a court of law.

    HepB and MMR…… don’t they use the same technology??????

  97. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    @CWaldman:Wakefield is a man known for every form of dishonesty. His words count for nothing.
    @Lloyd Philips: That would mean anytime anyone got exposed to any antigen, we would immediately come down with an auto-immune disorder. Try again.

  98. March 26, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    @Gray Falcon Only if someone was stupid enough to bind it to with a NON-B Conformal binding to an adjuvant such as Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, and didn’t tell the FDA that this substrate didn’t separate from the HPV16-L1 Protein Fragment when injected.

  99. Jessica
    March 26, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    If vaccines do not cause Autism, please explain to me how a perfectly healthy child who passed two Autism screenings at his well baby check ups goes from 3 word sentences and attempting to read to a complete mute within days of his MMR injections. Furthermore, where did the mercury and aluminum found in his blood, hair and urine come from? And why does my child now have a medical vaccine exemption? Oh, and if vaccines don’t cause Autism why is it listed as a side effect on vaccine package inserts? Why is there millions of dollars awarded to families due to vaccine injuries. It’s time to pull our heads out of the sand and start answering some questions!!!

  100. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    CWaldman:

    The reason the MMR was causing autism and other neurological damage in children in the UK in the nineties was because it was a bad version of the vaccine that Canada had refused to use after it had caused too many cases of aseptic meningitis in children.

    And both of those MMR vaccines were removed in 1992. Indeed, Richard Barr was supposed to use the UK taxpayer legal funds to help those families, but Wakefield decided on measles. Leaving the parents whose children suffered from the Urabe mumps portion high and dry.

    Even worse, when Wakefield told parents in his 1998 press conference to get single vaccines, some enterprising clinics illegally imported a single Urabe mumps vaccine:

    http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/pl-p/documents/websiteresources/con2031106.pdf

  101. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    @Lloyd: If that was required to create an immune reaction, we’d die from disease before we’d turn five. Try again.
    @Jessica: Just seconds after you posted that, one of my programs crashed. Clearly, you had to have done it. How dare you use your internet sorcery on me!

  102. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    Jessica:

    Furthermore, where did the mercury and aluminum found in his blood, hair and urine come from?

    Well, definitely not from any version of the MMR vaccine, which contains neither. For the rest of your questions consult your child’d primary health provider.

  103. March 26, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    @Lloyd: If that was required to create an immune reaction, we’d die from disease before we’d turn five. Try again.

    Your answer makes no sense.

  104. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    What do you mean? You claim that all of those components are required for an immune reaction, and since most diseases do not have them, that would mean, by your logic, that the immune system would provide no protection from disease.

  105. Jessica
    March 26, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    Ahh, yes. You are quite right. Could’ve been the flu mist he received that very same day or perhaps the dpt, hep… at the end of the day I’m still left with the same result. A sick child and countless excuses by our crock of a government and pharmaceutical companies. Greed sure does run deep.

  106. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    @Jessica- So you don’t deny being a sorceress?

  107. Jessica
    March 26, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    I have been accused of many things in my life Gray but sorcery is not one of them.

  108. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Dr. Stephen Walker’s recently published article substantiating Dr. Wakefield’s initial findings. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058058. Citation: Walker SJ, Fortunato J, Gonzalez LG, Krigsman A (2013) Identification of Unique Gene Expression Profile in Children with Regressive Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and Ileocolitis. PLoS ONE 8(3): e58058. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0058058

    Studies replicating Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s preliminary findings published in his 1998 BMJ retracted case study can be found in Andrew Wakefield’s book, “Callous Disregard,” (Skyhorse Publishing NY 2010), Ch. 13, Poisoning Young Minds, fn. 6. Gonzalez L, et al. Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with Gastro-Intestinal Symptoms. Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr, 2005;69:19-25 is the first one. “An apparently novel inflammatory bowel disease was discovered and has since been confirmed in five different countries.” (Wakefield, Callous Disregard, ch. 13, p. 225).

  109. March 26, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    What do you mean? You claim that all of those components are required for an immune reaction, and since most diseases do not have them, that would mean, by your logic, that the immune system would provide no protection from disease.

    You don’t know what your talking about.

    “all those components” as you call them, plus 3 other L1 Proteins ARE ALREADY FOUND IN THE GARDASIL HPV VACCINE, AND THE AAHS ADJUVANT IS FOUND IN MANY OTHER VACCINES.

    I believe you may have skipped a few courses on immunology.

  110. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    @CWaldman- Do you have any sources independent from Wakefield. I wouldn’t ask a Mafioso to choose his own jury, you know.
    @Lloyd- If you have anything proving your claims, please provide your evidence now. So far, all you’ve given me is speculation. I could speculate that cancer is caused by you placing curses on people, but that wouldn’t help at all.

  111. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    With reference to my last post, by substantiating I just mean “supporting.” And I mean “A list of studies” in par. 2. The point is, Dr. Wakefield has been used as a scapegoat and smokescreen to detract from the real vaccine safety issues. He never said MMR caused autism, but he lost his license to practice medicine in the UK. He only said more research needed to be done. It continues to be done. Courts have been awarding damages to children for vaccine-induced autism–the recent case in Rimini, Italy for example. Read Dr. Russell Blaylock’s foreword in Neil Z. Miller’s ‘Vaccine Safety Manual for Concerned Parents and Health Practitioners” on how vaccines can damage children’s brains.

  112. March 26, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    @Gray Falcon:: It appears that I am dealing with someone using scripted answers, who does not know how vaccines work, or what’s in them.

    I don’t have to prove any claims, because MERCK has already filed this info with the FDA, and makes its ingredients public on its website:

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_ppi.pdf

  113. March 26, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    @Gray Falcon:: What causes autism???

  114. novalox
    March 26, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    @lloyd

    First of all, have you heard “the dose is the poison?”. Tell me how much of each ingredient is in a vaccine, and then tell me the RD50 and LD 50 of each ingredient.

    Also, we keep using the same answers because your type keeps using the same old tired and repeatedly disproven tropes and pseudoscience again and again.

    @cwaldman

    You do know that the Italian Court ruling used the revoked work of mr wakefield and also was criticized by almost all major health departments in Europe.

    And why should a court ruling overturn the vast majority of science that says that there is no connection between vaccines and autism?

  115. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    Lloyd Phillips :
    @Gray Falcon:: It appears that I am dealing with someone using scripted answers, who does not know how vaccines work, or what’s in them.
    I don’t have to prove any claims, because MERCK has already filed this info with the FDA, and makes its ingredients public on its website:
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_ppi.pdf

    I didn’t ask for that, asked for proof your specific claims are dangerous. Please don’t lie about what I say.

  116. March 26, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    @Lloyd – the cause of the various symptoms on the autism spectrum (since autism isn’t a single affliction) is still under investigation – though there are many avenues that hold a lot more promise than the failed vaccine hypothesis, including age of the mother (and age of the father), genetic abnormalities in brain development during pregnancy, etc.

    What we can say with a lot of certainty is that it isn’t the vaccines – because the research has been done, in a variety of different ways (population, vaccine tracking, etc,) both domestically and in foreign countries & the results time and time again is that vaccines aren’t responsible.

    We keep wasting time and money in areas that are unproductive, which takes those resources away from areas in which we should be dedicated more resources……

  117. March 26, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    @novalox:: I would gladly provide your requested information for a slight consultation fee. I believe YOU are the people being paid to answering MY questions on this forum.

    Also please provide references for “SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE” that there is no connection between vaccines and autism. Please exclude anything by Poul Thorsen, who is awaiting prosecution by the U.S. Justice Department for fraud.

  118. March 26, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    @lloyd – that is easy, because Paul Thorsen isn’t the primary author (or even one of the leads) on any vaccine-autism study. Way to pull that anti-vaccine canard out there…..

  119. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 3:43 pm

    @Lloyd- Correction to my last post: I didn’t ask for proof those ingredients are used, I asked for proof that they are as dangerous as you claim. There’s a big difference. For example if I accused you of being a warlock, and pointed out a mole on your neck as proof of your devil-worship, then you could simply point out I have no proof that a minor skin blemish shows anything of the sort. You would not have to prove the mole doesn’t exist.

  120. March 26, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Lloyd – the cause of the various symptoms on the autism spectrum (since autism isn’t a single affliction) is still under investigation – though there are many avenues that hold a lot more promise than the failed vaccine hypothesis, including age of the mother (and age of the father), genetic abnormalities in brain development during pregnancy, etc.
    What we can say with a lot of certainty is that it isn’t the vaccines – because the research has been done, in a variety of different ways (population, vaccine tracking, etc,) both domestically and in foreign countries & the results time and time again is that vaccines aren’t responsible.
    We keep wasting time and money in areas that are unproductive, which takes those resources away from areas in which we should be dedicated more resources……

    With all due respect, please provide references to research that has scientifically disproven an autism/vaccine relationship, excluding anything handled by Poul Thorsen

  121. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Lloyd Phillips :
    @novalox:: I would gladly provide your requested information for a slight consultation fee. I believe YOU are the people being paid to answering MY questions on this forum.

    Prove it. An accusation without evidence is meaningless. Do you really want to live in a world where an accusation can lead to conviction without evidence? Do you?

  122. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Lloyd Phillips :
    With all due respect, please provide references to research that has scientifically disproven an autism/vaccine relationship, excluding anything handled by Poul Thorsen

    With all due respect, please provide proof you are not a warlock. If you don’t we’ll have to set you on fire. Nothing personal, just better safe than sorry, really.

  123. March 26, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    @Lloyd – as requested:

    http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

    There are more studies in there than the filter here will allow – but please feel free to review at your leisure.

  124. Christopher Haynes
    March 26, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    Lawrence, You do know the Autism Science “Quack” Foundation is not a reputable source don’t you?

  125. March 26, 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    @Lloyd- Correction to my last post: I didn’t ask for proof those ingredients are used, I asked for proof that they are as dangerous as you claim. There’s a big difference. For example if I accused you of being a warlock, and pointed out a mole on your neck as proof of your devil-worship, then you could simply point out I have no proof that a minor skin blemish shows anything of the sort. You would not have to prove the mole doesn’t exist.

    I did not claim they are dangerous. AAHS is a pro-inflammatory adjuvant designed to provoke a TH2 response, but I cannot find an efficacy study that it is safe for everyone, including murine models. My experience has been that if a pathogen or other genetic condition is present that compromises T-Reg Cells to (self) limit inflammation, self-sustaining inflammation may result, which may involve/overly sensitize mast cells in the GI tract, and Glial cells in the cerebral vasculature, resulting in neurodegenerative syndromes and cognitive/motor impairment, but this is my own research.

    Have you ever wondered why 1 in 38 kids have autistic traits after mass measles vaccinations in South Korea???

  126. March 26, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    @Christopher – here is one that is even more recent, a case-controlled study in Asia:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22521285

  127. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    @Lloyd- First of all, I need more than just “because I said so, that’s why.” Secondly, what we call “high-functioning autism” is surprisingly similar to what East Asians consider “normal behavior.”

  128. Christopher Haynes
    March 26, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Lawrence….that is one study and one vaccine. There are many studies demonstrating a connection between vaccines and autism.

  129. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Christopher Haynes :
    Lawrence….that is one study and one vaccine. There are many studies demonstrating a connection between vaccines and autism.

    Most withdrawn because Wakefield is a man who would make an excellent pirate if he had a better sense of ethics.

  130. Christopher Haynes
    March 26, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Gray….”Secondly, what we call “high-functioning autism” is surprisingly similar to what East Asians consider “normal behavior.”

    That means the results are even worse, if they are not counting the “normal behavior” kids that we consider as “high functioning”.

  131. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    Christopher Haynes :
    Gray….”Secondly, what we call “high-functioning autism” is surprisingly similar to what East Asians consider “normal behavior.”
    That means the results are even worse, if they are not counting the “normal behavior” kids that we consider as “high functioning”.

    More likely is that US diagnostic criteria picks up a lot more people in a country where being shy, withdrawn, quiet, and not making eye contact are considered perfectly normal behaviors. Unless you happen to have proof otherwise.

  132. March 26, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    @Christopher – okay, you provide your citations, but don’t include anything by Wakefield or his colleagues from the Lancet study…..

  133. March 26, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    ref 1 does not state there is no autism, only that giving delayed shots cause equal amounts of autism.

    ref 2) this lengthy treatise does NOT state vaccines do not cause autism, and leads the reader on many questionable tangents of INTERPRETATION, ie fire trucks are seen at all fires, therefore firetrucks start fires.

    ref 3) INTERPRETATION, not science

    ref 4) Surveys???? Don’t think so

    ref 5) INTERPRETATION

    ref 6) not found

    ref 7) This is NOT study

    ref 8) discussion – NO CLINICAL SUPPORT DATA

    ref 8) 9) 10) ….. Don’t waste my time. Not one of these state that vaccines are safe. Why am I looking at a study of increasing thimerisol use in Sweden when the problem may be concomitant vaccines in the U.S.

    Not ONE of these studies state that vaccines do not CAUSE autism. I fully agree that there is no CASUAL connection between autism and vaccines. THE CONNECTION IS ABSOLUTE !!!!!

  134. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    @Lloyd- I’m sorry, could you repeat your statements in English?

  135. March 26, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    @lloyd – really? Prove it!

  136. March 26, 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Another very good source for real scientific information on the safety profile of vaccines:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/Index1.html

  137. March 26, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    Lawrence :
    @lloyd – really? Prove it!

    The proof already in the works, but will be reserved for an upcoming trial… Thank you gentlemen, for giving me an insight into how to prep Plaintiffs.

  138. March 26, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    Wow – talk about a conflict of interest…….

  139. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    @Lloyd- Let it be shown that the prosecution has refused to present the evidence he claims exists. As such, the defendant must be acquitted by default, and no further charges of this sort may be brought up against vaccination.

  140. novalox
    March 26, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    @chirstopher haynes

    You’ve already been proven a liar by your utter lack of actual citations, why should we believe you now?

    @lloyd

    So you do have a massive COI.

    If you are truly a lawyer (which is highly doubtful given your behavior here), you’d be laughed out of the court for failure to present any sort of evidence for your case.

  141. March 26, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    @Gray & novalox – just seeing what he’s pushing, talk about an “ambulance chaser.”

  142. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Grey Falcon asks for resources independent from Wakefield. The studies cited in AJ Wakefield’s book, “Callous Disregard” for the proposition that “An apparently novel inflammatoroy bowel disease was discovered and has since been confirmed in five different countries” (p. 225): I gave you the first one already:
    Gonzalez L, et al. Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with Gastro-Intestinal Symptoms, Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr, 2005;69:19-25.
    Balzola F, et al. Panenteric IBD-like disease in a patient with regressive autism shown for the first time by wireless capsule enteroscopy: Another piece in the jig-saw of the gut-brain syndrome? American Jouornal of Gastroenterology, 2005. 100(4):979-981.
    Krigsman A, Boris M, Goldblatt A, Stott C. Clinical Presentation and Histologic Findings at Ileocolonoscopy in Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Chronic Gastrointestinal Symptoms, Autism Insights 2009: 1 1-11.
    Balzola F, et al. Autistic enterocolitis: confirmation of a new inflammatory bowel disease in an Italian cohort of patients. Gastroenterology. 2005;128(Suppl.2);A-303.
    Galiatsatos P, et al. Autistic enterocolitis: fact or fiction. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology.2009;23:95-98.

  143. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    My comment giving links where people could read about the cases of autistic children awarded damages by vaccine courts is still awaiting moderation?

  144. March 26, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    @cwaldman – I think we’d all like to see those cases, because autism isn’t a recognized “vaccine-injury.” Mostly because the science showing that it is, doesn’t exist.

  145. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Mr. Haynes:

    Lawrence….that is one study and one vaccine. There are many studies demonstrating a connection between vaccines and autism.

    Yesterday I gave you the PMID of the study mentioned by Lawrence, and three others. And you have not provided anything, which makes the four we provided versus the zero given by you an infinitely larger number.

    CWaldman, those are not independent replications of Wakefield’s retracted Lancet study because they are just case reports with no mention of MMR, and more than one is by a buddy of Wakefield, which was also noted on this comment thread:

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/05/still-no-independent-confirmation-of.html

  146. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 7:27 pm

    I forgot to add, Mr. Phillips, please do not side track this to a vaccine that is not given until a child is at least ten years old. Most children with autism are diagnosed long before their tenth birthday.

  147. CWaldman
    March 26, 2013 at 8:07 pm

    You are withholding my links to cases of autistic children compensated by vaccine injury courts from this blog. People looking for good information, don’t waste your time here; you will not get both sides of the story.

  148. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    @CWaldman- Do you know how anti-spamming software works? Did you try to post only one link? We’ve all had that happen to us.

  149. March 26, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    @Cwald – there needs to be two sides, for there to be two sides – in the case of the vaccine-autism link, the evidence just isn’t there…..

  150. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    CWaldman, legal decisions have no bearing on scientific issues. Also, we are all being plagued by the anti-spamming software. If you have read this entire comment thread you will see it mentioned by us multiple times. It took me at least three times to post a comment after removing most of it.

  151. March 26, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    The Plaintiff reserves the right to present evidence at trial.

    HINT: if you claim vaccines are science-based, why are there so many critical unknowns as to how they behave??? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20153253

  152. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    @Lloyd- Because the human body is complex, and it may be centuries before we fully understand how it works, if ever.

  153. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    Mr. Phillips, the MMR vaccine has never contained aluminum adjuvants. Please stop posting off topic comments.

    Also, the author of that paper was discussed here.

  154. Christopher Haynes
    March 26, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    Great point Lloyd and Gray, you only confirmed it. “Because the human body is complex, and it may be centuries before we fully understand how it works, if ever.”
    Is your mind opening up to the possibilities now Gray?

  155. Chris
    March 26, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    Mr. Haynes, we have opened up our minds to the scientific studies that there is no evidence the MMR vaccine has any connection to autism. Like PMID 17015560.

  156. novalox
    March 26, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    @christopher haynes

    There has been several studies that have shown that there is no link between vaccines and autism and that there is no evidence to support such a link.

    Again, [citation needed].

  157. Gray Falcon
    March 26, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Christopher Haynes :
    Great point Lloyd and Gray, you only confirmed it. “Because the human body is complex, and it may be centuries before we fully understand how it works, if ever.”
    Is your mind opening up to the possibilities now Gray?

    What about the possibility that you’re wrong? Are you open to that possibility?
    Besides, not understanding the body completely is not the same as having no understanding of it. We can understand that the evidence all points to vaccines doing far more good than harm. We can understand that something works without fully understanding how it works. We didn’t fully understand gravity for centuries after Newton’s law, but that didn’t allow us to levitate.

  158. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 12:44 am

    More PMIDs for Mr. Haynes:
    11567931
    17626143
    17634177
    12876158
    12456546
    12142932
    11850369
    23118678
    12142951

    There you go. More research for you. Now it is time for you to give us PMIDs.

  159. March 27, 2013 at 3:08 am

    No matter how many studies continue to show that vaccines are safe and that there is no credible link between them and autism, anti-vaxxers will continue to believe the lies they hear in their echo chamber. They are no different to Truthers, creationists and other conspiracy theorists. Even evidence of no link is taken as PROOF that there is one.

  160. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 10:51 am

    SODPHD – We’re not believing the “lies in the echo chamber”. Most whom choose not too vaccinate make the decision based on experience, not rumors. My daughter was injured from a vaccine and that injury triggered autism. My beliefs are not based on propaganda, but experience. Why you choose to ignore the many parents with experience is quite baffeling indeed.

  161. March 27, 2013 at 11:03 am

    @Alcan – then you would have no problem sharing your “experience” by pointing us to your VAERS entry & your experience in filing suit with the Vaccine Court, correct?

  162. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 11:18 am

    Alcan, it is because memory is fallible, many cannot tell if the “experience” was actually what happened. This was well illustrated with Cedillo v. Secretary of Health and Human Services (Case #98-916V).

  163. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 11:22 am
  164. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 11:29 am

    And some other things to consider. Look how many claims were made to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program:

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html

    In over twenty years there have been less than fifteen thousand. But each and every year between four to six million doses of MMR are given in the USA. If the vaccine was as terrible as some folks claim, the total NVICP claims would be more than a hundred times greater.

  165. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Listen, when your child receives a few vaccines all in one day to catch up, then immediately proceeds to have a fever for a week and then the worst rash you have ever seen and then starts to regress right in front of your eyes….there is no doubt what happened and what the cause was. It happens so fast that memory has nothing to do with it. Most parents I know didn’t make vaccine injury claims because they either didn’t know about it or by the time they figured it out they assumed it was too late.

  166. March 27, 2013 at 11:58 am

    @Alcan – then you’ll have no problem providing the VAERS entry and Vaccine Court information, right?

  167. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    I gave you an example, and presented you with the actual numbers. Every time a vaccine is given the parent is handed a Vaccine Information Sheet which details how to report a suspected injury to VAERS, and how to file a claim at NVICP. So the “they did not know” gambit is not tenable.

    Again, if you have actual verifiable evidence please present that. Otherwise, and it seems this cannot be said enough: the plural of anecdote is not data.

  168. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    BS Chris….I have never been handed a Vaccine Information Sheet with details how to report. I have 3 kids and all vaccinated until this happened and I had no idea about vaccine court etc. Most people have no idea. And even if they were handed some paper work…people are human, and some are not the brightest, and some may be caught up in the moment of the horror they are going through. If you have proof that I and every other parent know what to do in these situations, then please send it my way. Otherwise, ridiculous statement to make.

  169. March 27, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    @Alcan – I’ll repeat the question again – where is your VAERS entry? And your claim for the Vaccine Court?

    Also, every single time my wife and I took our kids in for vaccines, we received a copy of the VIS & the first time, the doctor went over it with us very carefully (to make sure we didn’t have any questions).

    All of the information is available right there – there is no way that you did not receive that form (on multiple occasions).

  170. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Then, Alcan, you were not paying attention. It has been required that the patient (or parent of patient) be given a Vaccine Information Sheet for each vaccine since 1988. They are also online:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/

    If you were not paying attention when your children got vaccinated, how can your recollections be considered reliable?

  171. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    You are wrong Lawrence….neither me or my wife ever received it or had a talk about it.

    Chris, can’t pay attention to something that didn’t happen.

    Also, was not a recollection…..it all happened right away from a period of December when vaccinated, right on through to March with full on regression.

    You are choosing to ignore the evidence. Please don’t tell me that vaccines are safe and that they do not play a part in autism. I know otherwise.

  172. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Then, Alcan, your kids’ doctor broke federal law. You need to report that.

  173. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    It took me four tries to send that one little sentence! This spam blocker is ridiculous. Let me try the next part I had in my first attempt:

    And what evidence are we choosing to ignore? Please post the PubMed Identification Numbers to those paper, like I did in comments #50 and #161.

  174. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    You are choosing to ignore all of the parents. That’s the most important evidence. It’s called real life, and it is taking science time to catch up and in the mean time many children are suffering.

  175. March 27, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    @Alcan – you aware that “eye-witness testimony” is considered the most unreliable, aren’t you? To refute your last point, I only need to mention the dozens, if not hundreds, of innocent people that were convicted of crimes because of “eye-witness testimony” only to be later exonerated by things like DNA Testing (you know, actual Science).

    The most obvious signs of autism tend to surface right about the 1 – 2 year mark, which does correspond to a time when children receive some vaccinations, but the research has been done to show there is no link between the receipt of vaccines & whether or not a child develops autism (as Chris has pointed out with actual Scientific Studies over and over again).

    Sorry, but we deal in actual evidence and facts – of which you have provided exactly none.

    Including, and I’ll ask again, the VAERS entry for your child or claim in the Vaccine Court.

  176. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Lawrence – it’s not “eye-witness” when it happens to you. Nice try though.

    As I said, the vaccine reaction and regression of my daughter happened very fast…..it is very obvious. There was no “eye-witness” or “recollection” needed.

    Again, you are ignoring the evidence. Why? I have no idea.

  177. March 27, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    @Alcan – again, you aren’t understanding the point. Personal recollections are inherently unreliable, i.e. “eye-witness testimony” – assault victims that positively identify their attacker, only to find out later than they were wrong (exonerated by DNA evidence).

  178. March 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Alcan – the filter is strong today – once again, where is the VAERS entry & the documentation of the regression? You should have plenty of that, right?

  179. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Lawrence….that is the biggest, worst excuse I have ever heard so far. That doesn’t happen very often and I’m not talking about one case here and there, I’m talking about 100’s or even thousands of parents with the same stories. That’s also comparing apples to oranges, my daughters deteriation didn’t happen in one instance of time, it was over 3-4 months. Yeah, we’re all a bunch of idiot crazies!
    Quit making lame old excuses Lawrence…why can’t you start listening to the people?

  180. March 27, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    @Alcan – you are the one making excuses…it has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that the evidence doesn’t exist for what you have claimed.

    You say hundreds, if not thousands – yet millions & tens of millions of children are vaccinated every single year. The rate at which serious reactions occur is, in most cases, as little as 1 in 1mil or 1 in 10mil, depending on the vaccine.

    You really should educate yourself on the real science behind vaccines – since you refuse to offer any evidence (even a VAERS entry) on your own:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/index.html

  181. March 27, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    @Alcan – and I’m not talking about one case either – almost uniformly, eye-witness testimony is unreliable, people rearrange timelines, how and when events occurred, etc – which is why it is up to rigorous scientific inquiry to actual figure out what happened and why….and the evidence has been provided to you that refutes the basic hypothesis.

    I’m sorry that you are so close-minded as to not even consider that you could be wrong.

  182. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    You are laughable Lawence….you think I and my family and friends confused the 4 month timeline in regards to my daughter?
    Again…vaccines, fever/rash…regression. No Gap Lawrence.

    Just because science has not caught up with the actual visible evidence, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

    How long has gravity been around? When did anybody understand it? Did somebody say, science doesn’t understand how gravity works so therefore you aren’t really seeing an apple fall off of tree, you must mistaken or delusional?

    Quit making excuses an listen to the people Lawrence. Listen to the people. They aren’t all wrong.

  183. March 27, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    @Alcan – at this point, I’ll just take your VAERS entry.

  184. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Alcan, you need to report your daughter’s doctor for not providing you the VIS. Then go through the legal system for keeping information about your rights to report to both VAERS and NVICP.

  185. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    That’s what I thought Lawrence. Unwilling to hear the people and see the truth. Arrogance!

  186. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    What version of the truth? The one where you ignored the several VISs handed to you, or the one where the doctor violated federal law and did not provide VISs?

  187. March 27, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    @Alcan – I repeat, I’ll take your VAERS entry to start, because I’m sure, with your diligent record keeping, you mostly certainly have one, right?

  188. March 27, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    The truth is that there is a strong and increasing evidence for a genetic basis to autism. So if anyone gave Alcan’s child autism, it’s Alcan. Of course, it’s easier to blame vaccines than to face the facts.

  189. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    Chris….you are side stepping. The Paper work and Vaers info doesn’t change or help any of the children injured.

    SODPHD – in my daughter’s case there was a genetic factor, as in most of them. I can admit that, so what? It’s not a one size fits all. If many kids have the genetic make-up and are susceptible…. then something needs to be done. So please tell me what FACT I am missing or not admitting to?

  190. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    “Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking.” — Carl Sagan

  191. March 27, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    @Alcan – You act like there have been at least three decades of research into the very claims you are making – they don’t hold water – the evidence isn’t there. I can virtually guarantee that your child would have regressed in the exact same manner, in the exact same time-frame, even if you hadn’t vaccinated.

  192. March 27, 2013 at 3:43 pm

    @Alcan – wait a second, now you are claiming there is actual science behind your “opinion?”

    Please enlighten us to exactly what “genetic” condition your daughter had – because that makes it even more likely that you could have been a successful claim in Vaccine Court…..

  193. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    Lawrence….you are so ridiculous. You can guarantee my daughter (who was way above average physically and mentally) would have regressed any way? You can guarantee it eh? You must be God! So it’s just a coincidence that she got really sick from the vaccines which caused health issues and she just happened to regress at the same time? Would you listen to yourself Lawrence? I don’t think you get it. There was no lapse in time here….vaccines=sick=unhealthy=regression. If you saw somebody on their bike get hit by a car would you try and tell me the injuries were a coincidence?? You are amazingly dense or stubborn; I don’t know which one it is.

  194. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    @alcan

    [citation needed] for your opinions, since you haven so far failed to actually back it up with actual science.

    Also, any insult or ad hominem used by you will be noted as indirectly admitting that you admit you are either lying or admit that your point of view does not have any scientific support.

  195. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Now it sounds like you are playing God novalox.

    You are not the authority here, or the final decision maker.

    Science began with observation.

  196. March 27, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    @Alcan – and over three decades of research have been done…..the link you are seeking doesn’t exist.

  197. March 27, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    @Alcan – Care of answer any of the substantive questions we’ve directed to you?

    1) Why didn’t you file a VAERS entry?

  198. March 27, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    @Alcan –

    2) Why didn’t you file a claim with the Vaccine Court?

  199. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Lawrence….I have been purposely ignoring those questions as they are irrelevant and none of your business. You are trying to side step the actual topic.

    Why don’t you listen to the people Lawrence?

  200. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Why won’t you look at the evidence Lawrence?

  201. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    Lawrence – why are you ignoring the parents stories?

  202. March 27, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    @Alcan – you are ignoring the questions that would actually give us some insight as to whether or not your story has any validity whatsoever.

  203. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    Think out side of the box Lawrence….that what a good scientist does.

  204. March 27, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    @Alcan – unless those stories are backed up with actual evidence, they are n=1 vs. decades of actual clinical research, population studies, and safety surveillance tracking.

  205. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    You know it is valid Lawrence….there are hundreds and thousand more just like it. Don’t play dumb.

  206. March 27, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    @Alcan – so, you’re happy to ignore every single scientific study out there which shows that you are wrong…….

  207. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Vaers proves nothing….it is a joke.

  208. March 27, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    @Alcan – please explain exactly how all of this “evidence” might have been missed by hundreds, if not thousands of researchers, both here and abroad, looking at all of the various variables revolving around the administration and tracking of vaccines?

  209. March 27, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    @Alcan – VAERS is a legitimate means for bringing to the attention of the CDC of serious vaccine reactions. All serious reactions are investigated and added to the pool of knowledge and create opportunities for follow-up research.

  210. March 27, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    @Alcan – by not submitted a report, you are possibly denying the very information that you claim researchers are ignoring or not following up on.

  211. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    Lawrence, every single scientific study does not show I am wrong….some do and some don’t. Why do you pick and choose only those that support your case. You know darn well there are plenty of studies leading down this path. Open you eyes and quit ignoring everything that doesn’t fit what you want it to be. it’s a journey, it was for me and I am still always learning. I don’t claim to know everything about it,no one does, not even close….but I am open to keep on-a-going.

    Biut I can tell you this…when you state that vaccines had nothing to do with my daughter’s autism, you would be 100% WRONG.

  212. March 27, 2013 at 5:21 pm

    @Alcan – why don’t you answer this question:

    4) What “genetic” condition does your daughter have that you feel caused the “reaction?”

  213. March 27, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    @Alcan – that’s not very “open-minded” of you……

  214. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    You don’t know if I did or didn’t Lawrence…there is plenty of information in vaers, it wouldn’t be the best source for scientific study anyway.

  215. March 27, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    @Alcan –

    Unless your daughter suffered a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, your timeline of events is not biologically feasible.

  216. March 27, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    @Alcan – if you had filed a report, the CDC would have followed up with you.

  217. March 27, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    @Alcan – VAERS is not the end-all, be-all, of scientific inquiry – but it is used to track individual events and potentially spot trends. The real research is done in real clinical studies, which don’t show the link you think exists.

  218. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    My daughter has a few genes that play a part in it and it all fits togeher perfectly with the whole story.

  219. March 27, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    @Alcan – so answer the question on genetics….

  220. March 27, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    @Alcan – nope, be specific.

  221. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    @alcan

    I simply follow the science, which states that there is no connection between vaccines and autism.

    Also, your constant moving of the goalposts without answering any questions is an indication that either you do not have any actual scientific proof to back up your assertions, or are actually lying to us.

    Also, thank you for your attempted insult. I like that you think that you admit that you think we have actual science to back up your science, instead of your “science”.

  222. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    So we agree in regards to Vaers. You don’t need Vaers to spot trends, as I have said there are many stories and they are easy to find. Even congress knows about them, so these are just excuses not to do anything about it.

  223. March 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    @Alcan – there have been over 300 genes identified with some relation to autism….so, you are so convinced, take the opportunity to convince us……

  224. March 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    @Alcan – who is making excuses now?

    Convince us. Who did the genetic work-up?

  225. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    novalox I will only ignore you from now on, that way I won’t insult you :)

  226. March 27, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    @Alcan – seriously, you think you’ve put all the pieces together – then tell the story, convince us, show us your evidence – because your “story” doesn’t mean anything without actual proof behind it.

    We can show the tens of thousands of children that suffered serious side-effects from vaccine-preventable diseases before mass-vaccinations – that’s real life, not the fiction that the anti-vax crowd tries to sell.

  227. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    Lawrnece….this is not the place, and you are not the person to have this conversation with. That would be a big waste of time.
    Fact is, autism has a genetic component and environmental component which includes vaccines.

  228. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    I don’t think I have allof the pieces together, but a heck of a lot more than you do. You see I am still on this journey with my daughter and we learn something new every day, so it is an on-going process. Thank God I had an open mind to help heal my daughter. If I believed everything you were telling me, she’d still be severly autistic.

  229. March 27, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    @Alcan – first, autism is about “development delay” not development stasis – those with autism progress and improve over time, without harmful biological interventions like Chelation and MMS (for example).

    I’m tired of this conversation as well – you obviously are ignorant of the basic sciences and have embraced quackery.

  230. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    I have embraced recovering my child almost 100%, no thanks to you and your kind. You are the ignorant one my friend, I am open and learning every day and you re-read your scientific studies trying to prove me otherwise.
    Cheers to you Lawrence.

  231. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    @alcan

    Thank you for admitting that your moral position is less than mine. I’ll take it as a compliment that a quack supporter like you cannot argue coherently against the science.

    Again, [citation needed].

    If you do not provide valid citations within 3 posts, you admit that your position does not have any basis in science and also admit that you have been lying.

  232. Erwin Alber
    March 27, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    The authorities know very well that vaccines are the leading cause of autism but have decided to deny everything and admit nothing for good reason. If I had caused a 6000% increase in autism I would be tempted to lie about it as well. Dr Wakefield was vilified, persecuted and deregistered because he dared to publish that parents had reported to him that their children became autistic following vaccination with the MMR vaccine and that this should be investigated. He opened a can of worms in doing so and paid the price. I recommend his lecture in which he defends his research:

  233. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    BTW – “delay” does not = regression They are different.

  234. Erwin Alber
  235. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    @erwin

    Youtube videos do not count as research.

    Also, erwin, still cannot tell between fake research and real research?

    http://www.mycolleaguesareidiots.com/archive/2011/02/13/Erin-Alber-and-VINE-Intellectually-Bankrupt.aspx

  236. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    @alcan

    Strike one

  237. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 5:53 pm
  238. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    novalox – since you just insulted Erwin, you admit that you are lying and you have no evidence to support your view point. This sounds like novalox logic – yes?

  239. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    Alcan, how is it an insult to truthfully tell you that Mr. Alber looked at a graph with a badly hand drawn line that had no relationship with the real data, and then declared it as “true”?

    Is it an insult to remind you that you claimed that you were not given Vaccine Information Sheets, even though they are required by federal law to being given each time a vaccine is administered? This means you have one of two options: to admit you were given the VISs and neglected to read them, or that the doctor broke federal law (in which case you have a legal recourse).

  240. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Same way I truthfully tell you my story and yet get insulted here.

    You should watch the video Erwin posted it is excellent.

  241. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    Andrew Wakefield has no credibility, the reasons are discussed on this comment thread.

    And the point is not whether or not your story is true, it most likely is your memory. But the fact remains, you must be given a VIS when a vaccine is administered. If you did not get them, then the doctor is legally negligent.

    I do not understand why you are not delighted that you now have a legal claim against the doctor who gave the vaccines, but not the VISs.

  242. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Why don’t you watch the video anyway and hear it from the Dr. Wakefield. Then you can decide if he is lying about anything.

  243. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    @alcan

    Strike 3 and strike 3, yer out.

    So you admit that you have no case, that there is no connection between vaccines and autism, and that you lied about your story.

    Good for you to admit that you are a lair, and that you have no point.

    Also, youtube videos do not count as evidence.

  244. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    @alcan

    Also, thanks for your admission that you cannot being up any actual evidence for your position.

    Any subsequent post by you can be dismissed as a lie until you bring up some actual evidence.

  245. CWaldman
    March 27, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Yesterday “Lawrence” invited me to post links to cases of autistic children who recovered damages in vaccine injury court. Then my posts wth the links to those cases awaited moderation for over two hours and were never posted. Then Lawrence jeered saying hey, where are those cases? As if there were no cases, but you can google and find them. When I protested, it was blamed on spamming software, but the comments were awaiting moderation that never happened. I am going to warn people about this site. People are not treated courteously here, but worse, it is not an open forum. You censor information to give a misleading picture to the public. I don’t know wether this page is funded with public funds, but your goal is propaganda. You will not win the public trust that way. People can see through that.. Erwin, thank you for posting your video on Dr. Wakefield. It is great. I am going to watch it right now.

  246. March 27, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    Tragic that the anti-vaxxers place so much value on the opinions of a con-man.

  247. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    novalox….I think you forgot your meds today. Your logic is not logical.

  248. March 27, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    @Cwaldman – luckily, the vast majority of people understand the fundamentals behind vaccinations – that they are safe & effective…..it is only a core group of the seriously science-challenged that believe otherwise.

  249. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    CWaldman:

    Then my posts wth the links to those cases awaited moderation for over two hours and were never posted.

    It is a problem with WordPress. If you look up I commented that it took me four tries to submit a comment, and only after I brought it down to one line of text. It is not in moderation, it is completely lost. It even happened to me on another WordPress blog. What you can do is contact this blog’s administrators. But since it is an issue with the software, I don’t think they can do much about it.

  250. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    Is Alcan sounding more like “Joe” now?

  251. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    SCODPHD – We don’t….he is only one person, and again he was studying IBD in autism which lead to him stating that we should research more on the MMR and autism as was told him by the parents. Every parent of the study group backs him up 100%.

  252. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Joe? I would love to meet him if he has any good information for me. Does he have a website or blog?

  253. March 27, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    @Alcan – not all the parents……and Wakefield is old news now. He had the opportunity to replicate his research, but he refused. He’s living off the hopes of the anti-vax crowd now acting as a mouthpiece.

  254. March 27, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    @Alcan – everything you need to know can be found here:

    http://www.quackwatch.com/

  255. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    @alcan

    Again, you are reduced to just insults.

    Thank you for your admission that I am more superior to you intellectually.

  256. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    Alcan, I posted several PMID studies that show Wakefield was very wrong. And here is one from someone who continued the study at the Royal Free when Wakefield refused their offer:
    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
    Taylor B et al.

  257. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    BMJ 2002; 325:419-21
    Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database.
    Black C et al.

  258. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:55 pm

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9
    Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.
    Davis RL et al.

  259. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    J Med Virol 1998; 55(3):243-9
    Absence of Detectable Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Inflammatory Bowel Disease Tissues and Peripheral Blood Lymphocytes.
    Afzal MA et al.

  260. dingo199
    March 27, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    CWaldman :Erwin, thank you for posting your video on Dr. Wakefield. It is great. I am going to watch it right now.

    Typical antivaxer – declares the Wakefield propaganda video is “great”, before he has even looked at it.

  261. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    By the way, I tried posting at least three other studies to show Alcan that there was more research on the MMR, autism and IBD. But the flaky spam filter prevented them.

    The studies have been done, and Wakefield was wrong. The reason he was wrong is because he was dishonest. Just go up and read the article where that is said in more detail.

  262. Erwin Alber
    March 27, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    This article is yet further evidence that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention and that the entire vaccine industry needs to be shut down for good to keep us and our children safe from the predatory activities of the medical-pharmaceutical mafia:

    http://www.wnho.net/vaccine_coverup.htm

  263. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    Mr. Alber, Dr. Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon with absolutely no qualifications in infectious disease, vaccines, autism and anything else relevant to this discussion.

    Conspiracy theories are off topic.

  264. Alcan
    March 27, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    Yes..all the parents Lawrence. Why don’t you watch the video, maybe you will learn something.

    It doesn’t boil down to Wakefield anyway….you like to think that’s what we all think…Again….he studied IBD and Autism and suggested furhter research in regards to vaccines and autism. Again, information suggested to him by the parents..

  265. Chris
    March 27, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Alcan, did you actually ignore the “furhter research in regards to vaccines and autism” that I just posted!? Further research was done by lots of folks in several countries, and Wakefield was wrong.

  266. March 27, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    This isn’t evidence as they are YouTube videos. But this is the best explanation of why Mr. Wakefield’s MMR study was handled the way that it was. It’s two parts and very easy to understand, if one is open to understanding of course.

    For the record, my son has autism, was perfectly healthy and well above the curve developmentally in many areas (even though he also had more challenging behavior from birth then my previous five children did.) He had routine vaccines at 2, 4 and 6 months with no reactions at all. Then he had no vaccines until after he had been found significantly developmentally delayed and started in the Early Intervention program. He began regressing at 14 months of age, lost his words, began to isolate himself, would become ‘lost’ in repetitive activities like lining up his cars, spinning objects and began to have severe tantrums. His food choices dwindled also as he began to show sensitivities to textures he was previously able to eat. But there were no vaccinations that preceded this regression, he was just at the age that it happens.

    My son isn’t recovered, but he has made progress and is significantly farther along then he was when he was first given his evaluation. He has friends, he can speak even though he still has some difficulties, he is learning to read, he can use the computer and write his name and count to 100 by 1s, 5s and 10s. He still has autism though, he rocks regularly, hums loudly, jumps, spins and flaps his hands. Here’s the difference, I don’t see my son as damaged. As a parent, it isn’t my job to make him into my perfect image of what a child of mine should be, just as I didn’t with my other five children before him. My job is to keep him happy, healthy, safe and secure, love him and guide him to be the person he was meant to be. There isn’t any vaccine that could have made him the charmer that he is. And there are hundreds of thousands of autism parents who believe just as I do, and hundreds of autistics themselves who know that vaccines did not make them who they are also. So it’s time to start listening to the autistics in our society, when it comes to autism, because who knows more about autism then someone who has lived with it, and continues to live with it? The science is in, the link that parents thought they saw between vaccinations and the onset of autism was found to be non-existent. The autism was there before, in subtle ways, even in children who had regression it was there. I could spot it in my son because I have five other children before him. If he had been my first, I might not have recognized anything different. I didn’t know what it was at the time, I just knew none of my other children were as challenging. Autism is there from birth, vaccines do not cause it because it is how the brain is wired and vaccines could not deconstruct and reconstruct the brain. That is just completely illogical.

  267. novalox
    March 27, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    @alcan

    Why should we trust a proven liar like you?

    Also, youtube videos doesn’t constitute evidence.

  268. Narad
    March 28, 2013 at 2:03 am

    I continue to puzzle over Lloyd’s odd BLAST remark, including where he got the FASTA sequence from (and why he doesn’t know the difference between a gene and a protein and can’t spell “BRCA2,” among other things). I will however, note that he drops this line at one of his panoply of Web sites (autismapocalypse-dot-com):

    NOTE: We are well aware that the GARDASIL HPV Vaccine HPV16-L1 Protein Fragments have MISSING MY09 and MISSING MY11 “CONSENSUS PRIMERS,” which appear to have been replaced by a mutation. This appears to be causing these protein fragments to bind to the endothelial lining of blood vessels and other organs, thus causing Cerebral Vasculitis and Intracranial Hypertension in a significant number of children. We will not comment until the mutant PRIMERS have been identified and ran through the BLAST Database.

    What? Sin Hang Lee was using “mutant” primers? The man seems to be hilariously confused.

  269. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 2:11 am

    Narad, whatever it was, it was off-topic. It had nothing to do with with MMR, autism and Wakefield’s well documented fraud.

  270. Erwin Alber
    March 28, 2013 at 4:33 am

    Dr Wakefield never committed any fraud – he was framed by means of false allegations by weasel journalist Brian Deer and the GMC because his research threatened medical-pharmaceutical mafia profits. I suggest you don’t believe everything you read, hear, or think for that matter.

  271. March 28, 2013 at 6:06 am

    @Erwin – I will definitely be applying that logic to anything that you post, given your propensity for pulling evidence out of your nether regions…..

  272. March 28, 2013 at 7:46 am

    Lawrence :
    @My3sons – incorrect, his research has not been replicated by any reputable source. Wakefield, himself, refused the opportunity to continue his own research in the UK – instead, he moved to the US to get on the Autism gravy train…..

    That sure is a lot of research that you are claiming is not reputable? I would suppose then that you would claim as well that the CDC funded epidemiological studies done on one single vaccine, the MMR vaccine; and one single vaccine ingredient, Thimerosal, are then as reputable as anything can get? Would you also claim to that nothing more needs to be studied regarding any other issue with vaccines? The current statement by the CDC is that ASD rates were recently found to be 1 in 50, by the way. What is the cost to care for all those children, for life? Is that concerning at all to you?

    Callous Disregard Research Studies

    http://www.callous-disregard.com/research.htm

  273. March 28, 2013 at 7:51 am

    This is an interesting set of information. To claim that Dr Wakefield intentionally conducted any form of fraud in that 1998 study, or actually that he conducted any form of fraud ever; is simply the result of promoting misinformed slander.

    Dr Andrew Wakefield – MMR Vaccine – Truth and Reality

    http://www.vacfacts.info/dr-andrew-wakefield—mmr-vaccine—truth-and-reality.html

  274. March 28, 2013 at 8:00 am

    Do you know that there has never been a single vaccine aluminum adjuvant safety study done showing the safety of aluminum adjuvants used vaccines? That is right, none exist at the CDC, nor does Paul Offits CHOP site have any actual safety studies. False comparisons between dietary amounts and injected amounts, are two entirely different things and sets of pathways regarding travel within the human body, and as well regarding detoxification.

    Aluminum Adjuvants – Lack of Safety Data – Lack of Aluminum Adjuvant Safety Studies

    http://www.vacfacts.info/aluminum-vaccine-adjuvants.html

    The Vaccine Damage Science

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-vaccine-damage—science.html

  275. March 28, 2013 at 8:32 am

    If there is no connection between vaccines and ASD, then how would it be possible for biomedical treatment protocols to repeatedly reverse ASD in so many children, which had not hope of much improvement, by staying with the mainstream route of pharmaceutical drug treatment and behavior therapy? Essentially biomedical treatment involves dietary changes that allow healing of the MMR damaged gut. Both mercury, (thimerosal) and aluminum (aluminium adjuvants) also have the potential to alter intestinal flora. When you inject anything, where does it go? Injected substances obviously travel throughout the body and they certainly do not just leave the body, and nor with just some assumed no chance of any adverse effect. Biomedical treatment involves essentially detoxing the vaccines from the childs body, while promoting with cellular nutrition and supplements, the healing of the vaccine damage. How much more proof would be needed? Are you simply going to discount every case that has happened in, by claiming that none of the now thousands of children that have recovered; that it never happened and/or that they never had ASD? By somehow claiming the diagnosis is and was wrong; is simply a false must deny it all; denial mechanism? What would be enough? For to many people obviously nothing would be enough, because to admit to the more harm than good done by vaccines, simply topples their false vaccine savior world, and their egos. Likely even their careers.

    Biomedical Treatment, in ASD

    http://www.vacfacts.info/biomedical-treatment-in-autism-asd.html

  276. March 28, 2013 at 8:38 am

    @Lowell – so a big fan of Industrial Chelation, Chemical Castration & Bleaching for autism?

  277. March 28, 2013 at 8:46 am

    Lawrence :
    @Erwin – I will definitely be applying that logic to anything that you post, given your propensity for pulling evidence out of your nether regions…..

    Go ahead and review this below information Lawrence, and report back on your interpretation of its statements made content.

    While your at it, find me a real vaccine aluminum adjuvant safety study. One that is actually done on a human being or an animal, will do. Simply using aluminum adjuvants in vaccines for 80 years and claiming (without any safety studies) that they are thus safe, simply because they have been used for that period of time, does not prove it is safe; any more than silver mercury amalgam tooth fillings have been proven safe, and claimed to by the same set of time in use, non scientific and false logic.

    12. Academic Integrity Fund Interview: Dr. Andrew Wakefield

    13. Academic Integrity Fund Interview: Dr. Andrew Wakefield

  278. March 28, 2013 at 8:51 am

    Lawrence :
    @Lowell – so a big fan of Industrial Chelation, Chemical Castration & Bleaching for autism?

    Get your nose into the actual information, Lawrence! Nothing of the sort has been promoted here in the information you have in front of you. You are deflecting your responsibility to answer directly to the information in front of you, by promoting your own twisted, misinformed; and entirely falsified interpretation of it. You better start using your head.

  279. March 28, 2013 at 8:53 am

    @Lowell – that’s actual information Lowell. All three of those treatments were presented (multiple times) as legitimate autism treatments at the Autism One conference…perhaps you missed it?

  280. March 28, 2013 at 9:00 am

    @Lowell – I think this is all are readings need to know about you:

    http://vaccineconspiracytheorist.blogspot.com/2012/08/is-lowell-hubbs-vacfactsinfo-anti.html

  281. March 28, 2013 at 9:16 am

    At no time have I ever promoted what the Geiers promote as far as biomedical procols, nor is it connected to the information that is in front of you. As far as chelation of heavy metals, there are several forms of that protocol and it can be done quite safely. For some children it has been a necessary part of their recovery, and it does work. Biomedical treatment is not a one size fits all; nor is it just one vaccine nor necessarily one vaccine ingredient that triggers all vaccine connected ASD. It is a combination of all the above. The parents need to become very well researched, as some of them have been, and thus they promote what they have learned to work, as options for other parents; the recovering Caroline information is one of those.

    It seems to me that you are simply one of those people, Lawrence; that is so hateful of the vaccine truth and anyone that would put it forth; that you must in spite even attack the fact that so many of these children have been safely recovered. What did mainstream offer them and the families? Little to no hope, and potentially a life time of prescriptions drugs; and denial of the real cause; which was them and their vaccines..

  282. March 28, 2013 at 9:27 am

    Oh, I see Lawrence. You can not in any honesty answer to the actual information, so you go straight for the false information filled personal attack. Attack on what? My credibility? Ok, so if you wanted to follow the real information, the facts and data, and the real truth; you should and would actually be following this counter blog right here. Here you can read what is counter stated about the content of the pages of that blog, and as well realize just how willfully ignorant and full of misinformation that blog actually is, that you just posted the link to.

    http://vaccinetruthdenialist.blogspot.com/

    There is no limit in your desperation to how low you people will sink to, is there. Extremely sick stuff.

  283. Chris
  284. Marsha
    March 28, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    Good job truth tellers. The deceivers & those they have fooled can be seen right through by all really looking for truth. Thank you all & the best to you & yours. The best to your son Lana. Thank you again.

  285. March 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    All that is – is hateful of the truth personally attacking and false tabloid trash, Chris. And in your desperation you could answer to nothing but to simply post garbage like that. Blogging Editor Costner is nothing but a Gorski want to be. A very lying, twisted, and evil man with a vendetta against anyone that puts forth the alternative and/or naturopathic knowledge and protocols truth; and as well the vaccine truth. Compare my counter blog to his, and that becomes all to quickly and easily evident.

    VacFacts

    http://www.vacfacts.info/index.html

  286. March 28, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @Lowell – we know exactly what kind of person you are…..

  287. March 28, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Fortunately, there are good websites that address the most popular myths and misconceptions:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Index.html

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

    Just two examples of real science behind vaccines and the vaccination programs – unlike the conspiracy-minded individual above.

  288. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, it has been mentioned elsewhere that you are not allowed on a certain hospital and/or college campus. Is that true or false? Your answer is important in establishing your credibility.

  289. Jeff
    March 28, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Lowell,

    Nice work and thnak you for speaking the truth.

  290. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    @jeff. grandma marsha, lowell hubbs

    You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts or truths.

    The the actual scientific facts says that there is no relationship between vaccines and autism. And that is the actual truth.

    It funny, when asked for facts, anti-vaxxers send in youtube videos and sharply biased website, not scientific papers nor actual first-rate jpurnal articles. I wonder why?

    Also, lowell, youtube videos do not constitute facts. And yes, your 9/11 conspiracy theoires are truly sickening.

  291. March 28, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Lowell – we know exactly what kind of person you are…..

    Really? And what kind of person is that? A person that puts forth the truth that you can not handle, nor actually in any honesty can you answer directly to that information? A person with the real facts, data, and the science to back everything I put forth? A person that you and others with to much to lose and that can not face the truth, must conduct a false personal attack on my credibility, because you have nothing left to stand on to debate me directly? The correct information being put forth and in the determination of vaccine fact verses fiction, is all that matters here, That is all that matters to the parents, and individuals that are concerned enough to want the truth. It is a well the only thing that matters to the parents of vaccine harmed children, to once and for all have the truth be represented, and all the misinformation be dispelled. For as long as the vaccine misinformation continues, I will remain one of those voices. For as long as infants, children, teens, and even adults continue to be vaccine harmed, while the truth is all covered up; I will remain one of the voices of truth.

    What kind of person are you Lawrence? I have seen you repeatedly posting your defiant vaccine misinformation on multiple articles, over the past many months. Are you paid to sit on articles like this, and intentionally attempt to keep the public mislead? Or is your goal to just simply throw a wrench into any productive and honest discussion here? Your doing a pretty good job of both, by the way. Anyway you look at it, your agenda has nothing to do with the intent of nor the desire to learn, nor to present the truth.

    How can you expect anyone to take you seriously, when you just ignored the information that has been placed there in front of you, and then you only move on, again replaced it all with articles from the CDC, and the American Academy of Pediatrics? Wow. You are clearly refusing to deal with any real data, and the existing and unbiased science, as well; it is as simple as that.

    How can the CDC be taken seriously, when they ignore all of the existing and available science showing the harm of vaccines that is published as well right in Pubmed, and other actually reputable journals? How can the CDC be taken seriously when they have an as well in denial and misguided person such as Paul Offit, as its spokesman?

    Paul Offit – Falsely Defends Thimerosal

    http://www.vacfacts.info/paul-offit—falsely-defends-thimerosal.html

  292. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 7:29 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, there has never been any thimerosal in the MMR vaccine. Please to not post off topic.

  293. March 28, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    novalox :
    @jeff. grandma marsha, lowell hubbs
    You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts or truths.
    The the actual scientific facts says that there is no relationship between vaccines and autism. And that is the actual truth.
    It funny, when asked for facts, anti-vaxxers send in youtube videos and sharply biased website, not scientific papers nor actual first-rate jpurnal articles. I wonder why?
    Also, lowell, youtube videos do not constitute facts. And yes, your 9/11 conspiracy theoires are truly sickening.

    Actually novalox, you are being highly hypocritical; and it is you, the CDC, the AAP, and for example CHOP, that are not entitled to your own set of facts. When you ignore what has been put in front of you, and continue on as if it were never there; it adds absolutely nothing of value to this discussion, nor the debate, (if you can even call it that).

    When you refuse to do your own unbiased research, and as well refuse to accept the unbiased research, science and the data of others that have collected it; then YOU are the one that is standing on and believes that you are entitled, to your own set of facts. Go back and review my reply posts made today, and realize what I am referring to. You reviewed nothing, because if you had, you would have realized that the bulk of the studies showing the harm of vaccines, come as well right out of the Pubmed listing. That is not good enough for you? Then what would be? For you to accept it; does the CDC have to acknowledge the study first; novalox; instead of just cherry picking their own funded epidemiological studies?

    The videos are normally all videos that contain the information and testimony of the very people you attack; which are qualified doctors, and even a neuro-surgeon that is actually far more qualified and speaking in honesty than Paul Offit could, and ever would be willing to do, and/ or hope to do. To as well bring in other issues here such as 9-11, etc; is typical textbook pro-vax rhetoric, and only speaks to your own immaturity, your intent and need to create false discreditation, and your unwillingness to deal with the subject matter, honestly.

    You can see that I have no fear of using my real name novalox; so why are you not using yours?

    Proof that Big Pharma Doesn’t Care About Vaccine Harm

    http://www.vacfacts.info/proof-that-big-pharma-doesnrsquot-care-about-vaccine-harm.html

  294. Lawrence
    March 28, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    @lowell – glad I’ve gotten under your skin by refuting your misinformation with actual Science.

  295. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    @lowell

    [citaiton needed]

    Also, thanks for admitting that you cannot stand actual scientific facts.

  296. March 28, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    Chris :
    Mr. Hubbs, there has never been any thimerosal in the MMR vaccine. Please to not post off topic.

    I am fully aware that the MMR vaccine contains no Thimerosal, and as well obviously that Thimerosal can not be used in a live attenuated virus vaccine. I see. So, you now Chris are the self appointed moderator and you will dictate what subject matters can be discussed; is that correct? This article is about ASD and that includes the topic of vaccines in general, and all related topics are clearly open here for anyone that wants to present with it..

    If there is anyone posting off topic here, it is you pro vax people. You yourself Chris, just went off topic to the lengths that you just did in an attempt to falsely discredit me; and while ignoring the actual information. And you can not see the blatant and obvious hypocrisy in the false claim you have made here, accusing that I have posted off topic? Any further discussion here is going to clearly and as always, be a waste of time; because you people refuse to get real.

  297. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    @lowell

    [citation needed]

  298. March 28, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    Keep praising yourself and patting yourself on the back Lawrence, nothing can burst your bubble nor your bust your delusions. You know as well as I do that you are simply full of it.
    With the endless number of vaccines given today, and in the combinations of chemicals, altered biologicals, and known vaccine contamination that they can and have not been able not resolve; are you going to tell me that 5 simple studies on the CDC website, are sufficient? Studies that actually present for more questions than answers as to actual vaccine safety. The AAP with their 6 studies that for the most part have avoided the real issues and questions. Referring to their own connected journals, and not a non connected and unbiased study in the mix. Why is that when there are so many they could have picked from, and to do further follow up studies? They refuse.
    As for the many studies I have collected in regard to the largely ignored elephant in the room, vaccine aluminum adjuvants; those CDC/AAP statements which are not actually even human studies, in no way discredit the numerous studies I have previously provided you with, on the linked to page that I have. You simply do not discredit that kind of actual science and data, by simply claiming with never any safety studies, not one; that they have injecting aluminum adjuvants for 80 years and thus it proven and has to be safe, and no matter how many vaccines we inject is simply reckless and irresponsible. You do not refute real human safety studies showing the harm of injected aluminum adjuvants, by simply as the CDC does, making a false and unproven claim that injecting aluminum adjuvants are the same thing as dietary consumption of aluminum, and then by furthering the claiming that any exposure be it injected or dietarily consumed, be it aluminum and/or mercury, is handled and detoxed in the human body exactly the same way very same way.That whole said claim is simply preposterous on all levels, right out the gate; and anyone with even basic understanding of the human body; would realize that to be a false statement. They still have zero actual safety studies on aluminum adjuvants, and they already know what the result will be favorable, if they ever do any. So, there you have it. I already posted that page information once, and obviously you ignored it, Lawrence.

    The Vaccine Damage Science

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-vaccine-damage—science.html

  299. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    Mr. Hubbs. you make absolutely no sense. If you have all the answers, could you please tell us the title, journal and dates of the papers written prior to the 1990s that discuss the increase of autism in the USA due the 1971 introduction of MMR? This would go a long way to exonerating (ex) Dr. Wakefield, since if you look at the article on the top of the page he is not spoken of very well. That information would directly counteract this quote from the above article:

    The bottom line is that the vaccine/autism controversy took hold when a poorly designed study, conducted by a disingenuous Andrew Wakefield who had been paid by a law board to find out if there was evidence to support a litigation case by parents who believed that the vaccine had harmed their children, suggested that there may be a link to autism and the MMR vaccine.

  300. Jeff
    March 28, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Bravo Lowell!

  301. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    And please do not link to that website. It is a confused mess and makes no sense. Just post the PubMed indexed dated before the 1990s that show an increase in autism after the USA introduced the MMR vaccine in 1971.

  302. March 28, 2013 at 9:08 pm

    It is you that makes no sense Chris, because you simply refuse to follow any form of real facts, real science, real data, and logic. What you are attempting to do is weasel your way around the facts, in hopes to present with a different conclusion than has been made obvious.

    You are going to as well keep repeatedly moving the goal posts in an attempt to have only the information that fits your selective denial filled agenda, coming over and between those goal posts. In other words, only you will determine what information is acceptable for and as proof. It doesn’t work that way, in the real world. You will never, and it is impossible to come to any honest conclusion, when you refuse to accept any information, that does not fit with your must deny it agenda. You already have had more than enough information put up here, to refute anything you have stated in your above comments. Do you actually expect people to keep rubbing your nose in it and forcing you to see what you refuse to see and accept? How unproductive to any debate at all, is that

    Furthermore, there is no one that needs to go back and dig up any journal titles, and the dates nor papers; to realize that the ASD rates have steadily increased since the 1987 introduction of and the removal of any legal liability for vaccine makers, to the doctors themselves. The rate of ASD has clearly and steadily increased directly parallel to the increase in the number of vaccines given. That fact is not even in dispute, for most people with any common sense.

    National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – Payout Data, (Over 2 billion now paid out)

    http://www.vacfacts.info/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program—payout-data.html

  303. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    I am not moving any goal posts, I am merely asking you a question that directly pertains to a sentence in the above article. I have asked it several times on this comment thread. If you can give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers from before 1990 that show autism increased in the USA after the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine, then you can show Wakefield’s Lancet case series of twelve kids was not because he was paid by Richard Barr.

    Now, again, do not post that website. Just answer the question as it was answered.

  304. March 28, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    Chris :
    And please do not link to that website. It is a confused mess and makes no sense. Just post the PubMed indexed dated before the 1990s that show an increase in autism after the USA introduced the MMR vaccine in 1971.

    Oh now Chris, you should not continue to be so dishonest. This website I created is obviously very easily followed and all of it is in titled pages by subject matter. There is a complete arsenal of information there, and tons of actual unbiased science. So, now you have attempted to create false discreditation directed at me, and as well the website. You simply can not handle nor deal with the information, quite obviously, Chris. Does that site scare you? It should, because it proves as false and incorrect anything and everything you are and have been putting forth here.

    VacFacts
    http://www.vacfacts.info

  305. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    So, you don’t have those papers in that morass of information. I am not going to filter through webpages that are just lists of other webpages, it is just a internet version of a Gish Gallop. If you don’t know about those papers, don’t sweat it. That probably means they do not exist and Wakefield only started to “research” MMR vaccines that had been in use for over twenty years because a lawyer paid him to do it.

  306. March 28, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    Chris :

    Now, again, do not post that website. Just answer the question as it was answered.

    I already answered your question and explained to you in detail why that question is as well irrelevant. You see what you have going on is in fact being far to narrow minded. I have never said, nor should it ever be claimed that MMR is the only vaccine and nor Thimerosal the only vaccine ingredient that can trigger neurological damage and ASD. The result in and of vaccine induced ASD, involves multiple factors, and that is where you have been mislead in the fact that the CDC has only incorrectly focused on those two issues. They continue to do that as if there is not any other vaccine issue that they should have even needed consider studying. Why is this? Because the CDC and AAP have never been about any desire to actually know nor present with the truth. Their job is to simply cover up and deny the truth, all to obviously. What would happen to them and the whole medical system system itself, if vaccines were ever admitted to be cause of the now 1 in 50 numbers the CDC just put out? What would happen? What is the dollar figure to take care of that many disabled children, now actually world wide?

    Vaccine Contamination

    http://www.vacfacts.info/vaccine-contamination.html

  307. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    @lowell

    Again, why should we believe you, when all you are doing is quoting from your own website instead of actual journals?

  308. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    That question is not irrelevant. In the article above Wakefield is being accused of only researching the MMR vaccine because he was paid from a legal fund. You can prove that is not true by finding the papers written before 1990 that provided him the idea that the MMR was related to autism, since that vaccine had been used in the USA for at least twenty years.

    The reason I don’t want you to link to your website is because it is that each page is just a page of more links. There is no way get real information, because they are just Gish Gallop, trying to overwhelm us with lots of information that have nothing to do with the question.

    So just tell us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers dated before 1990 that show there was an increase autism in the USA due to the 1971 introduction of the MMR vacccine.

  309. March 28, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    Chris :
    I am not going to filter through webpages that are just lists of other webpages, it is just a internet version of a Gish Gallop. If you don’t know about those papers, don’t sweat it. That probably means they do not exist and Wakefield only started to “research” MMR vaccines that had been in use for over twenty years because a lawyer paid him to do it.

    Anyone can go to that site and see you are simply full of it, Chris. If you actually want to learn of the real facts, and the real history behind not only vaccines but in regard to modern medicine itself for the past 100 years, that is a great place to do it. Then you can realize why it is so failed on so many levels; with the health of the population only becoming more in increasingly in crisis. You misrepresenting the truth Chris, and you are lying.

    Again, I never stated any such information answering your said question was there; I said it the question was irrevelent due to the large amount of other information that shows the huge increase in ASD numbers. I have no need of nor intention of breaking down for anyone what percentage of ASD is caused by the MMR, and/or what numbers of ASD were caused by other vaccines, vaccine contamination, and/or other specific vaccine ingredients such as aluminum adjuvants. All of it is a problem, in regard to not only ASD, but indeed far more than that, to include neurological harm, autoimmune disorders, causation of asthma, allergies, diabetes, cancer, etc. Wake up.

    Gardasil-The Real Truth

    http://www.vacfacts.info/gardasil—the-real-truth.html

  310. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, again you are avoiding the question and going off topic. The topic is autism and vaccines. The HPV vaccines are only given to children over ten years, and very few autistic children are diagnosed after age ten.

    So again, if you wish to exonerate Wakefield as described in the above article then give us only the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers prior to 1990 that show autism increased in the USA because of the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine.

  311. March 28, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    novalox :
    @lowell
    Again, why should we believe you, when all you are doing is quoting from your own website instead of actual journals?

    What part of being informed here that the pages of that site contain endless references with direct links to studies from Pubmed and other obviously reputable journals, are you failing to comprehend, novalox. Why do you keep on making the same repeatedly false statement? With a one link only allowed posting policy, do you expect me to list the all here? Why would I do that when you can go right to the site and find them. I am not here to play games; nor to pamper and sooth your willful and selective ignorance.

  312. March 28, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    @Chris – Mr. Hubbs is a perfect example of the fringe element in America that was the topic of Matthew Tabbibi’s book “The Great Derangement.” It details how individuals who feel divorced from mainstream America tend to latch on to conspiracy theories, cults, and those who promise the “Truth” in an attempt to gain meaning in their lives – Lowell fits the general description of the attributes of these people to a tee.

    I definitely recommend picking up a copy – as it gives great insight into the mindset of the “fringe.”

  313. March 28, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    @Chris – also, his belief that he has “Secret Knowledge” about the Real History of Medicine is another example of the full embrace of the “fringe” mentality.

  314. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    @lowell

    Again, [citation needed], and your web page does not count as a cite.

    Also, have you finally caught up on your rent, or are you still trying to pay it off?

  315. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, I told you before I am not going to sift through mountains of links. I am only asking you to post the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers prior to 1990 that show autism increased in the USA because of the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine. Just post those, and then we will know the sentence I quoted from the above article is wrong.

    If you need an example of the format, just look at the my comments numbered from 259 to 262. Or you can post the PMID (PubMed Identification Numbers) like I did in comment #161. It should be a snap for you to find that information and share it with us.

  316. novalox
    March 28, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    @lowell

    If you cannot provide any citations from an accredited journal that support your viewpoint within 3 posts, we can all assume that you are lying.

  317. March 28, 2013 at 10:15 pm

    Chris :
    So again, if you wish to exonerate Wakefield as described in the above article then give us only the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers prior to 1990 that show autism increased in the USA because of the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine.

    I am getting more than a bit tired of wasting my time with your repeatedly shown as irrelevant, stupidity. Your question has been repeatedly answered, and I will choose what I move onto and reply post here, and as to its subject content, not you. You know as well as i do that you would never consider such papers and exoneration of Wakefield; and that claim in itself is preposterous. So, you ask for the irelevant papers that you know do not exist, and while you ignore the real studies you should be considering, and the bulwark of studies that show the harm of vaccines in general. Nice job.

    Furthermore, the endless number of parents that have seen their child fall ill and with the same repeat scenario of symptoms befalling their healthy child, after an MMR vaccine, and or a combination of the MMR and other vaccines given, then additionally ending up in losing that child to ASD, and often no speech ASD; is more than enough proof. The clear facts are these. The CDC has as well ignored the existing research, that has in fact not been done by other than Wakefield and any affiliates; but other qualified persons who found the same and more results as that 1998 study did. You can find those right here, as was already reply posted here once before.

    Callous Disregard Research References

    http://www.callous-disregard.com/research.htm

  318. March 28, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    novalox :
    @lowell
    If you cannot provide any citations from an accredited journal that support your viewpoint within 3 posts, we can all assume that you are lying.

    Does this look like I am lying; just because in your denial you refuse to acknowledge what is there. Sick, sick stuff, as always. There are several pages there with an endless amount of relevant scientific studies showing directly the connection to not only the more harm than good vaccine harm done, but the direct connections to ASD as well. You can keep lying about it and attempting to deceive the readers all you want novalox. It is all up to you if you want to educate yourself or not. Obviously you chose not to. I am not here to educate those who refuse to learn, nor those that choose to derail any and all existence of truth as to and in regard to vaccines.

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-vaccine-damage—science.html

  319. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    No, Mr. Hubbs, the question has not been answered. I have looked at that webpage and it does not have the information I am asking for. So please post the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers prior to 1990 that show autism increased in the USA because of the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine.

  320. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    Again, Mr. Hubbs, just answer the question. I have seen both of those websites and they do not contain the information I am requesting. Just post the papers I am asking for.

  321. March 28, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    Here is another page for you navalox, just full of relevant data and facts. So you are actually more worried about if I paid my rent, than you are vaccine safety which is the subject of this article? Wow, you people sure get desperate to discredit the truth when you have someone slambed right in front of you. This is not exactly my first rodeo. I know you people and your attempts at slander, and your evil tactics all to well. It follows the same well known and desperate cycle, every time.

    Aluminum Adjuvants – Lack of Safety Data – Lack of Aluminum Adjuvant Safety Studies

    http://www.vacfacts.info/aluminum-vaccine-adjuvants.html

  322. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 10:35 pm

    I specifically asked for papers on MMR and autism from the 1970s and 1980s, the Callous Disregard link only had these papers from those two decades:

    Goodwin MS, Cowen MA, Goodwin TC. Malabsorption and cerebral dysfunction. J Autism Child Schizophr. 1971;1:48-62.

    Chess S, Fernandez P, Korn S. Behavioral consequences of congenital rubella. J Pediatr. 1978 Oct;93(4):699-703.

    Stubbs EG, Budden SS, Burger DR, et al. Transfer factor immunotherapy of an autistic child with congenital cytomegalovirus. J Autism Dev Disord. 1980;10:451-458.

    So exactly which one of those three is on the MMR vaccine’s relationship with autism?

  323. March 28, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    Chris :
    I have seen both of those websites and they do not contain the information I am requesting. Just post the papers I am asking for.

    Wow, if you want information that already know is not there, and has no bearing on anything relevant here whatsoever, how many times do you have to be told to go find it yourself? If you are claiming to understand science, and the availability of relevant and acceptable science; then by asking this question repeatedly; you are only showing your own inability to produce and preform what you are claiming to be about. Scientific journal studies as well are not about maintaining a historical record of any kind, and in regard to that which is what you are actually requesting. Are you telling me that you refuse to and can not deal in the actual science of vaccines, for both sides, biased verses unbiased? What else is actually important here. You people are amazingly pathetic.

    Here is another one Chris, for your “must read”, education file.

    Vaccine Quackery and Harm – Proven – Plain and Simple

    http://www.vacfacts.info/vaccine-quackery-and-harm—proven—plain-and-simple.html

  324. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    Again, just a link full of more links. A URL version of the Gish Gallop. And absolutely no real science.

    So are you now admitting there is nothing from the over twenty years of MMR use in the USA that indicates it had an effect on autism? That Wakefield was only motivated by the UK taxpayer cash provided by Richard Barr.

  325. March 28, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Chris :
    I specifically asked for papers on MMR and autism from the 1970s and 1980s, the Callous Disregard link only had these papers from those two decades:

    Again. I did not ever claim to nor state that the Callous Disregard research link would answer your persistent and irrelevant question. The page link was provided only to verify my further statements that have been made, and beyond your stuck in it and cant get it out of your head ridiculous notion of some twisted relevance to can get it out of your head question. Do you know any way that works that might reboot your thought processes? It seems that your personal hard drive has crashed?

    Did you know Chris that the MMR vaccine is made with the use of human diploid cells, MRC-5. Did you read as well the Vaccine Contamination page? And have you read the Post Vaccination – Vaccine Targeted Strain – Viral and Bacterial Pathogen – Shedding, page? Lots of information. Choose to actually learn, or deny it; it’s all your choice. I was curious about your having any conflicts of interest?

    Vaccine Production With – Human Diploid Cells (aborted fetal cell tissue)

    http://www.vacfacts.info/vaccine-production-with—human-diploid-cells-aborted-fetal-cell—tissue.html

  326. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, I know you spent lots of time on your websites. But they are not reader friendly. They are just a list of more URL links with a few words between them. In short: they are not evidence.

    The only website that had actual papers was the one from Callous Disregard, so I actually searched it. It did not have the information I asked for.

    And what kind of cells a vaccine is made from has no bearing on its safety. So, if you wish to be taken seriously you will answer with just the information that was requested, and in this instance it is PubMed indexed papers from the 1970s and 1980s.

  327. March 28, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    Chris :
    Again, just a link full of more links. A URL version of the Gish Gallop. And absolutely no real science.
    So are you now admitting there is nothing from the over twenty years of MMR use in the USA that indicates it had an effect on autism? That Wakefield was only motivated by the UK taxpayer cash provided by Richard Barr.

    Oh now Chris, quit lying, that page has plenty of real science on it and to it; just not from the people you want and choose to hear it from. Just because the CDC refused to acknowledge it and never will because it is to much damning truth, they already know exists; doesn’t discredit anything here. You already have loads of scientific studies in front of you listed right in Pubmed, and you failed to consider any of those; so what good would putting any more real and unbiased science in front of you, do?

    When you look at what Dr Wakefield has done and put forth in the past few years, and as well in what he represents today, and in the statements he puts forth today which are easily found in many videos; do you actually still believe his motivation as to that 1998 study was money and profit? Do you have any comprehension at all of how absurd that is? Why don’t you actually start answering some of my questions, and as to all that I have put forth here. Do that instead of trying to get your mind to reboot coming off of one single question. But it does make for a nice distraction tactic. Has that one recently been added to the pro-vaccine debating manual? I know that all the typical tactics have become extremely worn out and ineffective, as they have been seen repeated, so many times.

    How do you explain this one, Chris? Biomedical treatment in the reversal of ASD. Detoxing the vaccines and healing the damage; that is exactly what they are doing; including the harm and damage done to the MMR vaccine. Care about these kid, do you? I don’t think you do; quite obviously.

    Biomedical Treatment in Autism (ASD)

    http://www.vacfacts.info/biomedical-treatment-in-autism-asd.html

  328. March 28, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    Chris :
    Mr. Hubbs, I know you spent lots of time on your websites. But they are not reader friendly. They are just a list of more URL links with a few words between them. In short: they are not evidence.
    The only website that had actual papers was the one from Callous Disregard, so I actually searched it. It did not have the information I asked for.
    And what kind of cells a vaccine is made from has no bearing on its safety. So, if you wish to be taken seriously you will answer with just the information that was requested, and in this instance it is PubMed indexed papers from the 1970s and 1980s.

  329. March 28, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    Put a frame on that!!! Then put it in the pro-vaccine denialists and liars hall of fame!!!

  330. Narad
    March 28, 2013 at 11:22 pm

    Lowell Hubbs :
    Really? And what kind of person is that?

    An addled, repetitive nutcase who runs around spamming his incompetently assembled Web site and retreats into calling people “sick” and “twisted” at the drop of a hat.

  331. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    Narad, isn’t that referred to in the Comment Policy. Let’s look at that (the link is just below the “Websites That We Like” on the right side of this page:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;
    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Hmmm, I believe Mr. Hubbs has used personal attacks, unsupported accusations and spammed his website. Perhaps he should revisit is posting method, and actually answer the question he has been asked multiple times. It would go far into proving that Dr. Wakefield’s motivation was not “money and profit.”

  332. March 28, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    Chris :
    And what kind of cells a vaccine is made from has no bearing on its safety. So, if you wish to be taken seriously you will answer with just the information that was requested, and in this instance it is PubMed indexed papers from the 1970s and 1980s.

    And if you had never done any unbiased research, and only looked at what the CDC puts in front of you; you might actually get away with passing that off as true. Vaccine contamination is a huge issue; that as well is why I additionally put the Gardasil page in front of you, and the two other pages I just mentioned in my previous posting. You do not even attempt to tell me that what a vaccine is made from and the cell type has no bearing on the safety of the vaccine. Have you researched as well anything at all in regard to SV40? Not likely, and nothing that is unbiased, right?

    You spent absolutely no time at all reviewing that said page Chris; you might as well admit it.
    And even when all that is put in front of you, you choose to remain clueless by choice. So if you choose that, why are you still reply posting here, and yet attempting to do that on any self implied informed level; and which clearly you are not? It is as well not just one study that makes it be put all together this understanding in a package; it is combination of near endless studies and data that take an endless amount of time to review and collect. If do not want to follow the data and research and to learn; why do you continue to reply post here? Because you think you know it all, and because the CDC said, right?

    For Scientific Data: Homologous Recombination Study

    http://www.cogforlife.org/SCPIIMFARHR.pdf

  333. Narad
    March 28, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    Well, if I violated the comment policy, I apologize. But I’ve seen Lowell’s performances plenty of times before, and this one is no different. The summary is at least accurate.

  334. March 28, 2013 at 11:41 pm

    Chris :
    And what kind of cells a vaccine is made from has no bearing on its safety. So, if you wish to be taken seriously you will answer with just the information that was requested, and in this instance it is PubMed indexed papers from the 1970s and 1980s.

    Really? Is that fact? Take a look.

    Scientific proof that the known cancer causing SV40 virus, a previous contaminant in the polio vaccine, is obviously either contagious; or the virus is still in the vaccine/s.

    http://www.vacfacts.info/scientific-proof-that-the-known-cancer-causing-sv40-virus-a-previous-contaminant-in-the-polio-vaccine-is-obviously-either-contagious-or-the-virus-is-still-in-the-vaccines.html

  335. March 28, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    Chris :
    Hmmm, I believe Mr. Hubbs has used personal attacks, unsupported accusations and spammed his website. Perhaps he should revisit is posting method, and actually answer the question he has been asked multiple times. It would go far into proving that Dr. Wakefield’s motivation was not “money and profit.”

    Let me translate that for you. My name is Chris and I can not actually debate this matter in any honesty and I hate that Mr Hubbs because he had so much information and science that he has endlessly researched, that now I look like I don’t know what I am talking about; and that really bites because I was going to get away with claiming to whatever i wanted and whatever the CDC and Paul Offit support. We need to do something and falsely accuse him of spamming his website, which showed us more information and science then we could ever handle. We need to do a personal attack on Mr Hubbs and accuse him of any dirty thing we can find; we must discredit him; even if that means falsely discrediting him. Any wording you find here Chris, assuredly was within bounds of what was relevant to the situation and deserving; regardless of how you choose to twist it. Once thing is for certain, you entirely failed to debate the material in any truth and honesty. Seen it time and time again, and it all follows the same old pattern.

  336. Chris
    March 28, 2013 at 11:57 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, one of the papers I linked to was from Japan. The CDC does not operate in Japan. The SV40 issue was found and fixed fifty years ago, it is a non-issue. And to repeat, HPV vaccines are not given until after most children who are autistic get the diagnosis (and those who are diagnosed later have a very mild form). Also a poster presentation by students is not a peer reviewed paper indexed on PubMed.

    Now, again, show that Dr. Wakefield was not motivated by the UK taxpayer cash flashed before him by Richard Barr and answer my question. Just post the title, journal and dates of the Pubmed indexed papers prior to 1990 that show autism increased in the USA because of the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine.

  337. Narad
    March 29, 2013 at 12:00 am

    Scientific proof that the known cancer causing SV40 virus

    OK, Lowell, stop there and defend the assertion. I want a point-by-point rebuttal, in your own words, of this.

  338. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 12:09 am

    Good night, Mr. Hubbs. You have called me many things tonight, but I have tried to stay polite and on topic. If you wish to be taken seriously you will do the following things:

    1: Since you have repeated called me a liar, please name the comment number and quote the “lie.”

    2: Answer my question as I have asked it.

  339. March 29, 2013 at 12:28 am

    Narad
    OK, Lowell, stop there and defend the assertion. I want a point-by-point rebuttal, in your own words,

    It is interesting how you spend so little time actually reviewing any of the information, you couldn’t have; and yet you come right back in trying to make some sort of informed argument.

    The ACS is as well directly connected to the cancer industry, and they deny that there is any proof SV 40 connection to cancer as well. They in reality have not ever stated that they have proven no connection; but what they claim to is that no connection can nor has been proven. Well if you set the burden of proof high enough, of course no one will pass their requirements. The NCI as well have done their studies, claiming to that no SV40 link to cancer has been proven.

    So, in regard to those said claims, like any person who knows how to and does a good job of finding and reviewing the research; you then move on to finding out what other available existing research there is on SV 40 and in regard to the polio vaccine, and or other vaccines. You collect that research and weigh it in the balance as to which studies are the best, and as well as to which are likely to be biased. When you have what you feel is sufficient data and studies; you then of course determine which set of that evidence holds more weight in the determination of yes or no, SV 40 causes or does not cause cancer. In this case, the overwhelming evidence points to not only that SV 40 has been isolated in numerous kinds of cancers and as well benign tumors; but a person can only in any rational mind conclude that SV40 does cause cancer. Not only that but that it does exactly as was outlined in the site link. thus there are as well some unanswered questions, but at least much more has been determined than simply looking at an ACS or NCI study and saying ok; that is all I need to see; and I believe them to be correct. It is all about what research and sets of research are you willing to accept. A conclusion by someone else is not wrong simply because the person promoting the first and/or original conclusion did biased research, and/ or failed to look at all of the research.

  340. March 29, 2013 at 12:33 am

    Chris :
    1: Since you have repeated called me a liar, please name the comment number and quote the “lie.”
    2: Answer my question as I have asked it.

    You were provided that directly and indirectly worded indication on nearly every reply post you made; or a large majority of them. Do not waste my time with this kind of ridiculous and blatant ignorance. You failed to debate the subject matter and the information in any diligent form of rational honesty, and that is just a simple fact. get over it.

  341. Narad
    March 29, 2013 at 12:42 am

    Lowell, you are constitutionally incapable of debate, as amply demonstrated by your endless subject changing here, so I wouldn’t rely on that one too much. In any event, I do not need to go watch the well-known Len Horowitz “creative” Hilleman recut. This is thus an ultimatum question. If you make three posts without, in your own words, coherently rebutting the NCI findings, you concede that SV40 has nothing to do with human cancers.

  342. March 29, 2013 at 1:23 am

    Narad :</strong If you make three posts without, in your own words, coherently rebutting the NCI findings, you concede that SV40 has nothing to do with human cancers.

    That is the most ridiculously false and twisted reply anyone could have imagined.

    I have not changed the subject whatsoever, and I directly replied to your question.

    I as well obviously conceded to nothing. You refuse to get it, my research is already done; and everything on my website page you were give, clearly refutes the NCI study. I need not repost it all in front of you again. You simply were not expecting the informed reply that you received; and it backfired on you; and now you are angry and so just make up more twisted and misguided, rambling statements as you go. When you even reject the directly stated information that came right from one of Merck’s chief vaccine developers, you definitely are not about the truth here. Your agenda is not truth but one of deliberate denial. I have seen you post on other articles as well, and it is was the same thing, there.

    Failure Of The Continued Polio Vaccine Campaign

    http://www.vacfacts.info/failure-of-the-continued-polio-vaccine-campaign.html

  343. novalox
    March 29, 2013 at 1:36 am

    @lowell

    Why should we believe a proven liar like you?

  344. Narad
    March 29, 2013 at 2:47 am

    Down to two, Lowell.

  345. Jeff
    March 29, 2013 at 2:48 am

    Lowell…too bad Chris and the gang won’t have an honest conversation with you. Maybe somebody would learn something if they would or could. Thanks for the information!

  346. Peggy sue
    March 29, 2013 at 3:21 am

    Ill listen to my doctor thanks. Why just the other day my littl one was eatin da feces in the backyard and my neighbor comes by with her “shoes” and “underwears” and she says to me she says “sue, I don’t think that’s good for your child” ha, she’s one of those antivax type, so I says to HER I says “my childs gots the vaccine so she cants get sick and can eat what she likes!” Then I says to her”and you keep your unvacced little one away fro my kin, I don’t wants her catching anything from her!”
    I hates it when they come by with there “new” ideas and such , you know they brush there teeth EVERYDAY?!

  347. March 29, 2013 at 6:10 am

    @Peggy Sue – those “anti-vaccine” ideas aren’t new; they’ve been bandied about for a few decades now. Unfortunately, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, people still believe the junk science that people like Lowell continue to trot out (SV40 – seriously? That’s like 60 years old at this point).

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/ – Todd’s great site debunks numerous anti-vax claims – and certainly Lowell’s conspiracy-ladened rants should be ignored out of of hand.

  348. dingo199
    March 29, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Jeff, I doubt we will ever see Lowell having an “honest conversation” with anybody, not even himself.

  349. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 10:08 am

    Mr. Hubbs, you have failed to note where I “lied.” You claim every thing I said is a lie. Are you denying that your websites are a list of URL links with words between them? That is ridiculous.

    Also, you are posting off topic when mentioning polio and HPV vaccines, since neither of them were mentioned when Wakefield tried to link the MMR vaccines to autism.

    Jeff, it is now up to you to give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers from before 1990 that show an increase in autism in the USA from the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine. Since Mr. Hubbs could not answer the question, I can assume you will now do that. You can also tell us which MMR vaccine Wakefield was studying, since the UK introduced three MMR vaccines in 1988, then removed two in 1992, and changed to a different one in 1998. Oh, and let us not forget one of the twelve children was American, and that was a different MMR vaccine (with the Jeryl Lynn mumps component).

  350. Thanks
    March 29, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Marsha :
    Good job truth tellers. The deceivers & those they have fooled can be seen right through by all really looking for truth.

    Thank you for cheering me up. I sometimes worry that the pro-children side has made a mistake in strategy by engaging the anti-vaxxers, giving them open forums like this one to make their claims. It would be easier to adopt the rigorous censorship practiced by sites like AOA and Mothering, which openly ban anyone who challenges their lies, but as you say, those who seek the truth, will recognize it (I wonder if that’s what AOA and the rest of the pro-disease crowd is afraid of).

  351. Vaccines kill
    March 29, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    This was a great read, like 6 paid pro pharma reps got schooled by one man with facts! You pro poison pushers always do the same thing, start off so self righteous (like they don’t know how many times pharma has put out lethal pills that kill or harm people EVERYDAY! But ya ok let’s defend people that fake studies so there little pill can get out there and we’ll tell drs to prescribe them AND THEY WILL until they get pulled off the market) Then once they realize this guy knows his s**t they start with personal attacks in hopes of throwing the guy/girl off track . And when THAT doesnt work you flood the page with cdc studies that EVERYONE knows are bought and paid for by pharma.You think people don’t see what you do DAY after DAY on those pharma funded sites!? (Like vaccinate your baby bought and paid for by Every child by two.. FACT) People are waking up everyday no matter how hard you buffoons try to squash the truth.

  352. Thanks
    March 29, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    “People are waking up everyday no matter how hard you buffoons try to squash the truth.”

    “Squashing the truth by freely giving you a forum for your accusations. How ruthless of them.

  353. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    “Vaccines Kill”, how is asking for papers a personal attack? And please do give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that properly stored and administered MMR vaccines kills more children than measles. Measles kills over three hundred per day, see the link I posted in comment #80.

  354. Vaccines kill
    March 29, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Vaccinate your baby is funded by pharma, FACT.
    If you can’t re read the posts by you and your fellow pro poison pushers and find where they tried personal attacks on character etc then you are a liar. FACT
    You are defending some of the worst offending people in history by saying vaccines don’t harm, pharma pills are safe. Do you deny that pharma has caused MANY deaths from there badly studied chem pills???

    Ps:you can keep Peggy in your side, she fits right in..

  355. novalox
    March 29, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    @vaccines kill

    [citation needed] for your accusastions.

    If you cannot answer with an actual citation within 3 posts, we can all assume that you are lying, like lowell, jeff, and marsha before.

  356. March 29, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Peggy Sue – those “anti-vaccine” ideas aren’t new; they’ve been bandied about for a few decades now. Unfortunately, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, people still believe the junk science that people like Lowell continue to trot out (SV40 – seriously? That’s like 60 years old at this point).
    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/ – Todd’s great site debunks numerous anti-vax claims – and certainly Lowell’s conspiracy-ladened rants should be ignored out of of hand.

    Lawrence, your link contains nothing but an array of more endless false vaccine propaganda and misinformation. It contains only two studies that are largely irrelevant to anything; and certainly do little to nothing as to proving the current CDC vaccine schedule as safe and effective. Yet you choose to ignore all the bulwark of endless and existing unbiased science that clearly show vaccines to be anything but safe. Can you actually in any honesty claim to that studies in such as Pubmed, and other obviously reputable journals, are nothing more than conspiracy ladened rants? How intentionally delusional and deceptive can one person get and be? And do you actually think that no one here has nor can see through the more than little false and entirely dishonest charade you have going on here? Who do you would actually be ignorant enough to buy into all the false statements you have made here on this article? Unless, like you they have a less than honest agenda here to deny, and as well to cover up the truth.

    If you had spent even half as much time actually researching the unbiased information and the real existing science directly showing the mechanisms of harm that vaccines do, to include the science showing the direct links to ASD; and if you had done that instead of repeatedly reply posting your in denial and mockery of any and all fact statements, and having now done that on every article you can find out there; then perhaps you might begin to accept some of the facts. You never will; because for you nothing will ever be enough. Your game and agenda is denial of all fact. Why do you not as well start researching the real and actual history of vaccines, in regard to small pox and polio? There is no way you can evaluate the real risks verses the benefits; when all you will consider is the word of the CDC, and some extensively false propaganda filled anitivax authored link.

  357. Chris
  358. Erwin Alber
    March 29, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    In dveloped countries, vaccines now kill far more babies and children than the diseases they (supposedly) prevent, which is why in my opinion the vaccine industry ought to be shut down for good as a matter of urgency. .

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vaccination-Information-Network-VINE/69667273997?sk=messages_inbox&action=read&tid=id.327410920714334#!/media/set/?set=a.10150172201733998.360970.69667273997&type=3

  359. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    Mr. Alber, you have made a testable claim. Facebook is not a reliable form of evidence.

    In the USA there are over four million doses of MMR given each year, now tell us how many of those kill children by citing the title, journal and title of the PubMed indexed paper that supports your answer.

  360. March 29, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    dingo199 :
    Jeff, I doubt we will ever see Lowell having an “honest conversation” with anybody, not even himself.

    Really. That false statement is tantamount to blatant slander, Mr. Jeff. I will put my collected data and science up against yours, any day! In any honest mind, who do you think would win with the most convincing evidence? Real discussion and debate are not conducted by swiping off the table any and all information that does not fit your agenda, nor is it conducted by censoring and/or making mockery of the other sides information. I have never pushed the CDC’s nor any other information off the table, like you people do. That is because I can actually address their information what that said information actually contains; and you have if you were paying attention, you would have seen me do that quite effectively right here. A lot of this is a matter of trust, Mr. Jeff; and actually a large number of you have only done more harm than good to your own provaccine agenda, and by simply promoting the ugly image of your own dishonesty and at the level of denial that you have. You can choose to educate yourself to reality, or you can choose to remain mislead; your choice.

    VacFacts

    http://www.vacfacts.info/index.html

  361. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 11:07 pm

    Mr. Hubbs;

    Mr. Jeff. I will put my collected data and science up against yours, any day!

    Excellent! So you will now answer my question that you failed to do yesterday, plus the one I added to Jeff:

    Please give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers from before 1990 that show an increase in autism in the USA from the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine. Also tell us which MMR vaccine Wakefield was studying, since the UK introduced three MMR vaccines in 1988, then removed two in 1992, and changed to a different one in 1998. Oh, and let us not forget one of the twelve children was American, and that was a different MMR vaccine (with the Jeryl Lynn mumps component).

  362. novalox
    March 29, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    @lowell

    Again, why should we trust a liar like you, when you don’t even post anything resembling science to support your twisted viewpoint?

  363. March 29, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    Chris In the USA there are over four million doses of MMR given each year, now tell us how many of those kill children by citing the title, journal and title of the PubMed indexed paper that supports your answer.

    I don’t think we need any journal here, when we have a direct admission from a pharmaceutical company that vaccines are killing babies; in this case Wyeth. The FDA has as well denied the existence of hot lots, for years; falsely claiming that they have caught any such lot that was ever produced.

    The harm that the MMR vaccine has done is easily identified, and as well the connection to ASD, and by the very science that is listed on the Callous Disregard Research Studies; and best and actually replicating studies were NOT done by Wakefield. We as well have the now thousands of accounts by parents detailing their bright and healthy child’s demise into the lost world of ASD, after the MMR vaccine. We as well have the now near endless accounts of reversal of ASD, by the use of the proper biomedical treatment protocols that are available. What are they actually doing? they are detoxing the vaccines, restricting the diet and which helps heal the MMR damaged gut, and as they are providing many different kinds of supplements that promoting healing of the damage. Are there any heavy metals in vaccines? Quite obviously there are, and heavy metal detox as well has been essential for some of those children; (see my earlier reference). How much evidence would you need; and what would be enough Chris? Nothing would be enough for you, all to obviously; you must still deny it.

    Proof that Big Pharma Doesn’t Care About Vaccine Harm

    http://www.vacfacts.info/proof-that-big-pharma-doesnrsquot-care-about-vaccine-harm.html

  364. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, again I will not accept your website nor Callous Disregard as evidence. Answer my questions as I have asked them.

  365. March 29, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    novalox :
    @lowell
    Again, why should we trust a liar like you, when you don’t even post anything resembling science to support your twisted viewpoint?

    Keep on lying; and what do you call this collection, novalox? The site you have been referenced to here, and several times now, has more actual physiological science and data on it, than as a fact you can obviously handle, novalox! It is as well nice to see again your misinformation filled and falsely slanderous blog link. When all else fails, bring in the false discreditation, right? How honorable of you.

    Hey, you know what, novalox? I have the courage to use my real name and identity; and what would you call what you are using? Would you like to explain the reason for your having no identity? You do not find any hypocrisy in that?

    The Vaccine Damage Science

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-vaccine-damage—science.html

  366. Chris
    March 29, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, “Chris” is my real name. So answer my question as I requested with just the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers and not anything else.

  367. March 29, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    Chris :
    Mr. Hubbs, again I will not accept your website nor Callous Disregard as evidence. Answer my questions as I have asked them.

    Well quite obviously right then and there you are again admitting to your refusal to consider and deal with, and in any real science, and data at all. In other words only you will choose what is acceptable data here; which is entirely asinine.This whole issue is about what does the real science and data show us; and you know how you pro-vaccine zealots always claim to have all the science, and in that you always promote that your vaccine claims are all science based. There is as said no way to conduct any productive and honest debate here; when one side entirely swipes off the table any and all evidence the opposing side produces.

    Here is your statement. Quote: In the USA there are over four million doses of MMR given each year, now tell us how many of those kill children by citing the title, journal and title of the PubMed indexed paper that supports your answer. unquote

    I am providing you the science that shows the harm that the MMR vaccine is responsible for; and the direct connections to ASD. Therefore, it is impossible for you to make any claim that all the science shows that the MMR vaccine does not cause ASD. They at the CDC have cherry picked the science, and ignored countless studies that refute their claims of no connection. As far as vaccine caused child deaths; that indeed has happened; and on a much larger scale than most people have realized. You can choose to accept that, or deny that; and your highly biased opinion means absolutely nothing to me; nor should it to anyone else.

    Go ahead and review the information in this video right here which is the personal account by a mother who lost her infant to vaccine caused SIDS. That video is from the same collection of information in the page referenced to above; titled, Proof that Big Pharma Doesn’t Care About Vaccine Harm. Also review the article titled, Isn’t Your Baby’s Life Worth More Than $250,000? I can see as well all to obviously that you never took a single minute to review any of that information.

    Are vaccines to blame for infant deaths?

  368. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 12:00 am

    Mr. Hubbs:,

    Well quite obviously right then and there you are again admitting to your refusal to consider and deal with, and in any real science, and data at all.

    What data? You have not provided it in the manner requested. Youtube videos*, websites that are only lists of other websites and books are not data.

    Just provide the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers.

    * SIDS is defined as the death of an infant under one year of age. The first MMR vaccine comes after the first birthday. MMR cannot cause SIDS because it is not given to children under a year old.

  369. Robert
    March 30, 2013 at 12:02 am

    Wow Mr. Hubbs. Impressive. Thank you for speaking the truth as you have relentlessly. I was on the fence until very recently but now I see my wife was right all along. We thought she was crazy but the more I read in public forum and such I am now convinced there is a cover up going on. I saw, as my wife pointed out, on Fox news recently that people are vaccinating less and less so now we know why. So many sick and damaged children have become obvious because us old timers can see the difference from yesteryear all around us. I hear our kids are like 1 in 88 affected by vaccines or worse in other countries. We also know the toxins in our water, air and food are also responsible. Big corporations and greedy people just do not care about mankind. Such a shame. Hope soon EVERYONE wises up.

  370. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 12:08 am

    Robert, now with your new knowledge you can now answer my questions!

    Here you go, give it a go:

    Please give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers from before 1990 that show an increase in autism in the USA from the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine. Also tell us which MMR vaccine Wakefield was studying, since the UK introduced three MMR vaccines in 1988, then removed two in 1992, and changed to a different one in 1998. Oh, and let us not forget one of the twelve children was American, and that was a different MMR vaccine (with the Jeryl Lynn mumps component).

  371. March 30, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Chris :
    Mr. Hubbs, “Chris” is my real name. So answer my question as I requested with just the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers and not anything else.

    Is your full name, Chris? That’s odd, most people have as well a last name.

    So what you are telling me here is that Pubmed studies are only acceptable to you, if you believe that none exist; and otherwise all Pubmed studies are off the table for your consideration. Apparently you are not informed as to the science enough enough to even realize that many of those studies and the best studies in that Callous Disregard Research page link; are also listed in Pubmed. Obviously you as well in fact refused consideration of all the many Pubmed listed studies that exist in and as to the large collection of that on my website. And which again by the way, you were linked to. Obviously you are not informed enough to even cherry pick the studies, but instead just simply swipe off the table any studies that even suspect do not support your agenda.

    I think you have wasted more than enough of my time, don’t you?

  372. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 2:15 am

    Why? I have a very common last name. One that has even been used in the comments here. It is not important.

    What is important is the data, and if you had been paying attention you will see that I looked at the Callous Disregard Research page in comment #325. Your answer was unsatisfactory.

    Now answer my question as I asked it. Present just the title, journal and dates, nothing else.

  373. March 30, 2013 at 2:22 am

    Chris
    * SIDS is defined as the death of an infant under one year of age. The first MMR vaccine comes after the first birthday. MMR cannot cause SIDS because it is not given to children under a year old.

    If you had actually reviewed what is stated here, you would realize that the only person who made any statement as to a connection between MMR and SIDS, was you. The issue if you remember, was ASD. If you google, MMR vaccine caused deaths; you will come up with several articles detailing exactly that in children. Perhaps you should actually do some of your own research and search the VAERS reports for that as well?

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/index

  374. March 30, 2013 at 2:41 am

    Chris :
    Mr. Alber, you have made a testable claim. Facebook is not a reliable form of evidence.
    In the USA there are over four million doses of MMR given each year, now tell us how many of those kill children by citing the title, journal and title of the PubMed indexed paper that supports your answer.

    And you actually expect that there has been a study done attempting to find out how many children have died (been killed) after the MMR vaccine; and that is the only evidence of it that you will accept; and it must be published in a Pubmed indexed paper? In our past history of vaccine use literally thousands of infants and children have died after vaccines; (even more have been vaccine damaged) but the deaths have and will always be written of as an undetermined causation and/or anything but a vaccine, or vaccines as cause. Use your head. A request for that kind of a study as the only acceptable proof of vaccine related death, is absolutely ridiculous!

  375. Jeff
    March 30, 2013 at 2:48 am

    Lowell….you’ve got them on the run and they’re doing what they can to misdirect. Good work!

  376. March 30, 2013 at 6:34 am

    Chris :
    Robert, now with your new knowledge you can now answer my questions!
    Here you go, give it a go:
    Please give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers from before 1990 that show an increase in autism in the USA from the 1971 introduction of the MMR vaccine. Also tell us which MMR vaccine Wakefield was studying, since the UK introduced three MMR vaccines in 1988, then removed two in 1992, and changed to a different one in 1998. Oh, and let us not forget one of the twelve children was American, and that was a different MMR vaccine (with the Jeryl Lynn mumps component).

    The ridiculous nature of your ongoing ramblings are beyond any form of rational and common sense thought, Mr…Chris. Why on earth would anyone need to feel that collecting all that information would even be relevant to the subject matters of any kind here, and as to the vaccine issues; and as to the issues of actual importance? You entirely ignore the relevant issues that have been put forth here, and yet simply go on with your ramblings of such irrelevant nonsense. In your first attempt to ask for that information, you claimed your reason to be that determining an increase in ASD after 1971, that it would exonerate Wakefield. I told you that you will not find any so called peer reviewed studies with those numbers in them. However you can find historical evidence that the ASD numbers were once 1 in 10,000, and now today the current figure latest stated by the CDC, is 1 in 50. What single common denominator exists in relation to that, and as well increasing in parallel to that figure? The answer is what? The increase in the number of vaccines given. So, it appears here Chris, that you have entirely missed the bigger picture; and all while you have been side tracking the whole issue with your demands for so called scientific studies as proof, that you know or should know have never existed.

    Go ahead and read this and see if you can get just a glimpse of actual vaccine reality.

    A recent investigative report compiled by Dr. Lucija Tomljenovic, Ph.D., uncovers more than 30 years of hidden government documents exposing these vaccine schedules as a complete hoax, not to mention the fraud of the vaccines themselves to provide any real protection against disease.

    Though her paper focuses primarily on the British health system’s elaborate cover-up of the dirty truth about its own national vaccination program, the tenets of the study’s findings still apply to vaccination schedules in general, which are typically designed for the purpose of serving corporate interests rather than public health. UK government authorities, it turns out, in an ongoing bid to satisfy the private goals of the vaccine industry, have deliberately covered up pertinent information about the dangers and ineffectiveness of vaccines from parents in order to maintain a high rate of vaccination compliance. And in the process, they have put countless millions of children at risk of serious side effects and death.

    Through several Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests, Dr. Tomljenovic was able to obtain transcripts of private meetings that were held between the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunization (JCVI), a so-called “independent expert advisory committee” that makes recommendations to the government about vaccine policy, and various British health ministers over the years. And after poring through this plethora of information, which had previously been veiled from public view, Dr. Tomljenovic made some disturbing discoveries.

    You can access Dr. Tomljenovic’s full paper here:

    http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf

  377. March 30, 2013 at 6:58 am

    In the below article link it contains a quite well done listing and analysis of some of the science showing the link between and regarding the vaccine SIDS connection. You could actually be learning from that Chris; imagine that?

    http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/SIDS_and_Seizures/892/2

  378. Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2013 at 7:57 am

    Anything newer than the year 2000, Lowell? Science marches on, many old papers have been overturned, new evidence has been discovered.

  379. Chris
    March 30, 2013 at 10:48 am

    Mr. Hubbs, what must you read and understand before using the VAERS database?

    And you, Jeff, and Robert have still failed to give me the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to answer my questions. I see lots of words, but none of them are an answer of the form requested.

    Though Mr. Hubbs does admit that papers showing an increase in autism in the USA after the 1971 introduction of the MMR do not exist. Which is odd that its use in twenty years in the USA did not show an increase, yet somehow Wakefield connected the increase in the UK in less than ten years. And even more strange is when Japan dropped their MMR vaccine (which contained the Urabe mumps strain), the level of autism did not fall.

    It seems only Wakefield and his friends (Krigsman, Vingh, etc) were the only ones able to connect some version of the MMR vaccine to autism, but no one else on three continents. By the way, which MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying?

    And again, Mr. Hubbs, SIDS is defined as the sudden death of an infant under the age of one years. This is before the MMR vaccine is given. So there is no way the MMR vaccine can cause a death months before it is given.

  380. novalox
    March 30, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    @lowell

    Again, citation needed.

    @jeff

    So, have any citations to back up your assertions, instead of blindly following someone who has not offered any proof.

    lowell’s been pretty much discredited, and from his work, is seen as a conspiracy theories with no actual proof, yet you still believe him just because he follows your fallacious viewpoint?

  381. March 31, 2013 at 3:48 am

    novalox :
    @lowell
    Again, citation needed.
    @jeff
    So, have any citations to back up your assertions, instead of blindly following someone who has not offered any proof.
    lowell’s been pretty much discredited, and from his work, is seen as a conspiracy theories with no actual proof, yet you still believe him just because he follows your fallacious viewpoint?

    As much as the and your comment in repeatedly made asking for citations, that in your mind always seems to be your means of avoidance of the actual issues and data here; I will tell you this, again. The source for such said numbers is not found in so called scientific citations. Those numbers are only found in the publishing of the historical recording of studies with the finding of those numbers. Those aren’t found in medical journals. Why in your mind would you think that the only evidence source of anything, and in your false belief that something like that would only be found in a so called, scientific citation? Yet you entirely and conveniently ignore the scientific citations that do show you the truth on every other matter here, but the one you are asking for a citation on. That to me would sound like you are only playing games as to the understanding here of anything at all that doesn’t support your pro-vaccine, all is safe and effective claims, and agenda.

    It is actually for the most part irrelevant to the bigger picture the public needs to see; when you want to hem and haw on it as to break it down of exactly what number of cases of ASD are caused by such as the MMR vaccine. The reason for that, and why I state that to you, is of course because ASD is not triggered nor caused by just one vaccine nor just one vaccine ingredient. There is sufficient case history evidence and as well scientific study evidence and as well now even Italian vaccine court evidence that the MMR vaccine does cause ASD; and that in regard to their decision making and payouts that have been made. That information together with what is known regarding biomedical treatment of ASD, as the dietary changes that heal the MMR damaged gut, and now multiple studies showing the abnormal gut issues being directly connected to ASD; is more than enough evidence that the MMR vaccines does trigger ASD in some individuals; more like has done so in now countless thousands of children.

    Nothing would enough evidence for you Chris, and novalox; because for some reason you clearly seem to have a need to deny it all. So why are you even debating with me this issue, when you know, and it can clearly be seen that nothing would be enough to convince you; or for you to openly admit that you had been; and not ever? It is not just the MMR; it is aluminum adjuvants, Thimerosal, vaccine contamination, multiple vaccines; one or all can trigger an adverse reaction, resulting illness, and the regression a child into the lost world of ASD. Look at the unbiased and existing science that you refuse to consider. Are you telling me that just because the CDC has refused to acknowledge the existence of that science, that then no one should consider ever it as having any validity? Why doesn’t the CDC have the answers to what causes 1 in 50 children to become autistic then? Those are the new current CDC quoted numbers. Here’s your answer; they aren’t looking.

  382. March 31, 2013 at 3:54 am

    One in 50 School-Aged Children in U.S. Has Autism: CDC

    Significant increase in the prevalence of the condition over the past five years, researchers say

    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/03/20/one-in-50-school-aged-children-in-us-has-autism-cdc

  383. March 31, 2013 at 4:30 am

    Chris :
    Mr. Hubbs, what must you read and understand before using the VAERS database?
    It seems only Wakefield and his friends (Krigsman, Vingh, etc) were the only ones able to connect some version of the MMR vaccine to autism, but no one else on three continents. By the way, which MMR vaccine was Wakefield studying?
    And again, Mr. Hubbs, SIDS is defined as the sudden death of an infant under the age of one years. This is before the MMR vaccine is given. So there is no way the MMR vaccine can cause a death months before it is given.

    And Chris, I quite well understand what you are attempting to imply here. You are attempting to insinuate and claim to the typically seen but false VAERS discreditation tactic, that VAERS means nothing, and with the claim just because a report is made, doesn’t prove any connection to the vaccine, or vaccines. This is what I do know; the CDC has refused to locate any common findings, and or clusters of similar events regarding any vaccine ever; to include Gardasil. This in fact proves that they are not looking, and that they are intentionally disregarding what is there and what is found in VAERS, all together. The intended reason VAERS was implemented to begin with; was to find the clustering of common factors in regard to vaccine adverse reactions and as well regarding any deaths. The CDC is clearly a corrupt and literally criminal operation to have disregarded all that they have. There are not actually looking, it is as simple as that. So, because they are not looking are you telling me that no one should look; and if you find anything significant, that they should consider yourself unqualified to determine that, as the CDC didn’t find anything, so it can’t be true? How about the fact that the reporting estimate is at only 1 to 10% of the total adverse reactions that happen? Should that consideration be of concern to anyone? For example, lets use the Gardasil deaths reported now to VAERS as of February; they are at the number 130. If that is only 10% of the total that may exist, that number is 1300; and the CDC states they find no common links in the death. They are lying, and they have to much to lose to ever admit to anything. They only protect the pharma industry, and if Merck were ever to be put their head on the chopping block as to that vaccine; the CDc goes down with it, and the FDA who wrongfully approved that vaccine in 2006, with all the red flags that it knowingly had. And top if off no true placebo was ever used in the clinical trials; they actually used the aluminum adjuvant as a placebo; and they knowingly got away with that. You see how this works? Don’t ever even think of telling me I don’t understand it.

    As well, if you are going to tell me that there were only two studies that supported the 1998 Wakefield study, and that it only amounts to only two studies by Krigsman and Vingh; you either didn’t bother to spend even 3 minutes looking, or you are being largely dishonest. Which is it?

    As for the comment you made here regarding the MMR vaccine and SIDS; that was explained to you previously, if you had even bothered to read the replied to comments here. You are the only person here to make any statement claiming that the MMR is connected to SIDS. That was not what was stated to you. You obviously can not even follow properly what has been and is being stated.

  384. March 31, 2013 at 4:31 am

    HPV VACCINE VAERS REPORTS UP TO FEB 2013

    Description Total
    Disabled 927
    Deaths 130
    Did Not Recover 5,791
    Abnormal Pap Smear 518
    Cervical Dysplasia 206
    Cervical Cancer 62
    Life Threatening 546
    Emergency Room 10,261
    Hospitalized 2,917
    Extended Hospital Stay 227
    Serious 3,914
    Adverse Events 29,003

    http://sanevax.org/

  385. March 31, 2013 at 4:44 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Anything newer than the year 2000, Lowell? Science marches on, many old papers have been overturned, new evidence has been discovered.

    Go ahead with your full expose on exactly what papers have been overturned and what new evidence has been discovered? This should be very interesting and I can hardly wait for that one?

    How can the CDC have any new evidence, when for example the last call made for it and any real scientific studies on such as in regard to vaccine aluminum adjuvants, (for which they have never had any actual safety studies), the call made for that science was in the 60’s, and right after that all their telephones with the wooden boxes and the cranks appear to, and must have fallen off the walls and no call has ever come in since?

    Aluminum Adjuvants – Lack of Safety Data – Lack of Aluminum Adjuvant Safety Studies

    http://www.vacfacts.info/aluminum-vaccine-adjuvants.html

  386. novalox
    March 31, 2013 at 10:49 am

    @lowell

    Again, [citation indeed]

    Why should we believe a known liar and conspiracy theorist like you, who won’t give a shred of evidence to support his distorted viewpoint?

  387. Chris
    March 31, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Mr. Hubbs:

    Nothing would enough evidence for you Chris, and novalox;

    Except you have not provided anything that resembles a title, journal and date of a PubMed indexed study with real science. Just random links to pages full of more links. Plus a bunch of violations of this blogs comment policy.

  388. dingo199
  389. Narad
    March 31, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    You can see that I have no fear of using my real name novalox; so why are you not using yours?

    Lowell conveniently omits his well-documented history of sockpuppetry and attempted impersonation.

  390. Narad
    March 31, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    Oh, and…

    I am getting more than a bit tired of wasting my time with your repeatedly shown as irrelevant, stupidity.

    Lowell, given that you get the same reception basically everywhere you pop up with your bizarre manglings of the English language, maybe you should, I dunno, quit “wasting your time.”

  391. March 31, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    Quit obviously you have all clearly shown your massive level of ignorance in this subject matter, and your clear hatred of fact, and anyone that puts it forth. What a horrendous level of exposure as to the truth and reality of vaccines, and as to the nature of this done more harm than good beast. Clearly as well in regard to the people that promote the pro-vaccine agenda; this was not exactly a positive expose for you; you might as well go ahead and face that and your reality.

    VacFacts

    http://www.vacfacts.info/index.html

  392. March 31, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    Quite obviously as well as soon as you learn the real truth about modern medicine and its real history and as well in regard to vaccines, the better off you and the world will be.

    The False Foundations of Modern Medicine.

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-false-foundations-of-modern-medicine.html

  393. novalox
    March 31, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    @lowell

    Again, why should we believe a proven liar and conspiracy theorist like you?

  394. Chris
    March 31, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, please answer some basic questions on your background.

    1. What is your college degree?

    2. What is your job?

    3. Do you have children?

  395. March 31, 2013 at 11:54 pm

    Your lack of any common sense desperation, again clearly shows. What, not more attempts at false discreditation? Go ahead and answer those questions completely for yourself. Is there any reason you would refuse to? I could really care less, but obviously there is some reason that you are and insist on remaining so deep in denial. And didn’t you falsely accuse me earlier of not staying on track with the subject matter? What do you call, this?

  396. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 12:27 am

    Mr. Hubbs, please answer some basic questions on your background.

    1. What is your college degree?

    2. What is your job?

    3. Do you have children?

  397. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 12:45 am

    What do you call, this?

    You don’t get it, do you, Lowell? It was a trap set specifically for you. This site is full of HACK CODE. You know, like the BBC.

  398. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 1:32 am

    @lowell

    Again, why should we listen to a known liar like you?

  399. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 1:46 am

    “Belief in immunization is a form of delusional insanity.”
    Dr Herbert Shelton, USA

    Indeed. It also explains why discussing or debating the vaccination issue with provaxers is about as productive as trying to explain to someone who was born blind what colours are, or trying to dissuade someone who believes that dog excrement has a delightful fragrance from insisting that this is the case. People need to wake up and face the fact that vaccination is bioterrorism disguised as disease prevention. .

  400. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Mr. Alber, the same questions to you:

    1. What is your college degree?

    2. What is your job?

    3. Do you have children?

  401. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 2:42 am

    Herbert Shelton wasn’t a doctor, Erwin, and Benedict Lust’s “American School of Naturopathy,” which issued his “N.D.,” ceased operation shortly after his “degree” was awarded. Of course, to this day, the Natural Hygiene crowd has trouble explaining why he was bedridden for the last 13 years of his life.

  402. April 1, 2013 at 4:06 am

    Chris, the same questions to you: why do you think you would should get to ask such ridiculous and entirely irrelevant questions; when you have not answered the same questions for yourself? Do you have any concept of what constitutes harassment and blatant hypocrisy in and as to your reply posting? And novalox, your childish and literally mindless repeat of the same baseless and without any proof nor merit comment; constitutes as well blatant, and obvious harassment. In your mind, tell me; what kind of a person would actually be impressed with that kind of garbage? Quite obviously neither of you can handle the truth. So, instead of taking that out on me; why don’t you simply call or write a letter to the CDC, and inform them of your anger in that they have misinformed the public and lied to us all for decades; and all the while that they actually knew of the truth; and covered it up.

    1. What is your college degree?

    2. What is your job?

    3. Do you have children?

  403. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 4:53 am

    Do you have any concept of what constitutes harassment and blatant hypocrisy in and as to your said reply posting?

    FTFY, Lowell.

  404. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 8:01 am

    Chris :
    Mr. Alber, the same questions to you:
    1. What is your college degree?
    2. What is your job?
    3. Do you have children?

    Do you mind me asking what if any is the relevance of your questions to the topic under discussion Chris?

    I feel that this video is far more pertinent to the topic:

  405. April 1, 2013 at 8:13 am

    @Erwin – again, YouTube videos aren’t Science or proof – got anything that isn’t a hand-drawn graph?

  406. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 8:19 am

    “Why We’re Still Talking About Vaccines and Autism”

    It’s obviously because parents of affected children won’t be fobbed off by the blatant lies and the misinformation campaign designed to change their correct observation and perception that their previously healthy children became autistic after allowing them to be systematically and repeatedly poisoned in accordance with the CDC’s vaccine child poisoning schedule, the three-live-viruses-in-one-injection MMR vaccine being the last straw which sent their children over the edge into a living and ongoing nightmare for the parents as well as their child to inhabit.

    One can only hope that the psychopaths running the vaccinaion racket will one day have to face a court to answer for their crimes against children and humankind. I have more respect for maggots and primordial slime than I have for these people.

  407. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 8:30 am

    Lawrence :
    @Erwin – again, YouTube videos aren’t Science or proof – got anything that isn’t a hand-drawn graph?

    They are all the proof I need Lawrence. What you believe is hardly relevant to me, nor is what I believe relevant to you, which is fine. What is relevant to me is that based on my research and observation, there is NO WAY I would let anyone with any kind of vaccine come near me or any child of mine.

    What other people believe or do is not really any of my business. All I need and want is my right to an informed choice and my informed choice to be respected, though to be fair I think it would be great if an increasing number of parents were to wake up to the fact that vaccinology is a satanic cult and defenseless babies and children were spared these satanic rituals inflicted on them under the guise of disease prevention. .

  408. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 8:50 am

    @Erwin- So if I posted a YouTube video titled “Erwin Alber is a mass murderer”, that should be enough to have you executed?

  409. Lawrence
    April 1, 2013 at 8:56 am

    @Narad – they throw out “satanism?” And they wonder why they aren’t taken seriously…..

  410. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 10:43 am

    “Satanic ritual”? Youtube videos as evidence? Not understanding what has been said?

    It seems that Mr. Hubbs and Mr. Alber will not answer my questions because they do not have any education or relevant experience.

  411. Lara Lohne
    April 1, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Mr. Alber, you are mistaken in your quote stating, “It’s obviously because parents of affected children won’t be fobbed off by the blatant lies and the misinformation campaign designed to change their correct observation and perception that their previously healthy children became autistic after allowing them to be systematically and repeatedly poisoned in accordance with the CDC’s vaccine child poisoning schedule, the three-live-viruses-in-one-injection MMR vaccine being the last straw which sent their children over the edge into a living and ongoing nightmare for the parents as well as their child to inhabit.”

    First mistake: Only a handful of parents of children with autism believe vaccines had anything to do with it so please don’t assume these handful of people speak for the majority of us.

    Second mistake: The children in question may have been previously healthy, many of them are still healthy, they just happen to have a different neurology, (and that does not equate with unhealthy) which was there from birth. If a parent knows what is normal in an infant and toddler, they would have seen telltale signs before the regression took place, as I did in my own son from birth.

    Third mistake: Considering how long vaccines have been around and in wide use everywhere, if vaccines had anything to do with autism then we would expect many more to have autism then currently do. There is no more poison in a vaccine then there is in the natural pathogens, and in many cases fewer actually as vaccines are attenuated, and if these children are as fragile as you are suggesting, they would be dead within hours of their birth from the sudden and constant exposure to millions of pathogens starting at birth.

    Forth mistake: Autism is not a living nightmare for anyone, except those who refuse to accept their children. That is where the real damage is being done, and it will last these children for the rest of their lives.

    You don’t speak for me, my son or my partner, who was recently diagnosed with ASD himself (not to mention countless others who know vaccines had nothing to do with autism) and I find your beliefs regarding autism offensive and hurtful.

  412. April 1, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    Chris, you have not answered my question as to what your own education and relevant experience is? You as well have not explained why you continue to maintain and nor why you believe that you are entitled to maintain such a level of obvious one sided and bigoted hypocrisy.

    You additionally have in no uncertain terms here shown your own level of ignorance, to be in any way continuing to maintain the claim that only so called chemical pharma trained medical professionals are qualified to interpret the vaccine science and information. For those said people, their careers regarding vaccination are founded on nothing but false information, misinformation and obvious lies and as well a major level of denial. As well the entire foundation of chemicalized and vaccine promoting medical so called care, is based on foundation of understanding that has been since day one, entirely incorrect.

    Once you decide to become honest enough to review that historical information and accept that reality; only then will you see the complete futility in what they have promoted; which in reality now destroying the health of the children and the general population on larger scale than has ever been before. How do you explain the existing health care crisis in America, with everything only getting much worse. If the chemicalized medical establishment had it right; we should be seeing amazing levels of health in our population, and thriving children everywhere. Instead we are only seeing increasing numbers of children and adults with chronic conditions. asthma, allergies, ADD/ADHD, ASD, diabetes, autoimmune disease, cancer; and many other as well yet unexplained for actual causation, afflictions.

    Are you going to continue to tell me that we should continue to keep looking to these clueless so called medical professions for the answers, and that are only trained in pharmaceutical (chemistry) science? And you are going to tell me that we should trust for the answers to health care, these same said people that out of many years of schooling have the average doctor, MD at the most at best have had only less than half a day spent being taught any form of nutritional understanding of health care? Why are there so many people being repeatedly failed by their system, and with their conditions only getting worse, and with more pharmaceutical drugs being added to counter the adverse effects of previous prescriptions. Endless numbers of people literally given no hope, but a life time of pharmacy drugs; and without any resolution to their actual adverse health conditions issues. Those same people when they finally have had enough, many of them have justed ship the alternative health, chiropractic, and the naturopathic side of it; and then learned the truth, and through those means fully regained their health. The pharma drugs were no longer necessary, and most of those people certainly as well learned that vaccines were contaminated and toxic substances that have no place in real health care for them nor their children.

    Real health care can only come from obvious and very basic principals. Detoxification of the human body, and not putting any incompatible and harmful substances back in; and with added essentially the providing of cellular nutrition that puts the human body back on homeostasis; has done more to improve health in human beings than any other known protocol on earth. What avenue even sounds more realistic to you; whole food supplements, raw organic foods, and juicing that provides that cellular nutrition; or does continuing on the standard american diet, and taking pharmaceutical drugs sound like the more viable option to you? Is the key to health care and resistance to illness found in slambing 49 doses of 14 vaccines into the arms and legs of children, before the age of 6? Is the key to health care found in now the creation of an ever expanding vaccine schedule for adults? How has that been working? Quite obviously you people are clueless by choice.

    The Real History of Modern Medicine

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-real-history-of-modern-medicine.html

  413. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    Everyone, remember, this is the man who thinks baking soda can cure cancer. He has nothing of worth to say.

  414. April 1, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    Lara Lohne
    First mistake: Only a handful of parents of children with autism believe vaccines had anything to do with it so please don’t assume these handful of people speak for the majority of us.
    Second mistake: The children in question may have been previously healthy, many of them are still healthy, they just happen to have a different neurology, (and that does not equate with unhealthy) which was there from birth. If a parent knows what is normal in an infant and toddler, they would have seen telltale signs before the regression took place, as I did in my own son from birth.
    Third mistake: Considering how long vaccines have been around and in wide use everywhere, if vaccines had anything to do with autism then we would expect many more to have autism then currently do. There is no more poison in a vaccine then there is in the natural pathogens, and in many cases fewer actually as vaccines are attenuated, and if these children are as fragile as you are suggesting, they would be dead within hours of their birth from the sudden and constant exposure to millions of pathogens starting at birth.
    Forth mistake: Autism is not a living nightmare for anyone, except those who refuse to accept their children. That is where the real damage is being done, and it will last these children for the rest of their lives.
    You don’t speak for me, my son or my partner, who was recently diagnosed with ASD himself (not to mention countless others who know vaccines had nothing to do with autism) and I find your beliefs regarding autism offensive and hurtful.

    I would like to point out just a few of the errors you have made in your claims, Lara Lohne.

    First mistake: The numbers of parents that have now watched their previously bright and healthy child, get a vaccine, or in most cases a load of vaccines in one day, and near to immediately fall ill, and follow a steady progression spiral into the lost world of ASD, are far greater in total number than you are obviously willing to acknowledge. Are you at all aware of the fact that the ASD numbers are now 1 in 50, and that number was very recently released that figure by the CDC itself. How many children just in the US, does that total up to? What, all due to better diagnosis, you think?

    Second mistake: To claim that these said children afflicted with ASD are somehow still healthy; is blatant and obvious inaccuracy. How many accounts of those experiences have you actually read about as to the parents account of it; or have you personally been aware of? To claim as well that all these said children had tell tail signs that something was wrong, and to insinuate that these children were defective all along; leads me to believe that your whole story actually may be made up. Either that or you are somehow majorly misguided.

    Third mistake: Believing the Paul Offit directed myth that injected vaccination that bypasses all the natural front line defenses, and in regard to the immune system and detoxification as well; that vaccination is no different in any way than is natural exposure; is as well majorly incorrect and misguided as to any real understanding of human physiology. Your claims are inaccurate and literally preposterous.

    Forth mistake: Autism is a living nightmare for many parents; and that in no way means that they do not love and accept their children for who they are, and as they are. Does the ASD diagnosis mean that they should then as well just accept the diagnosis of what is, and never explore the option of biomedical treatment which has proven to be successful in so many cases? Or should they just subject their life and their childs life to what the medical community has done; offering nothing but behavior and cognitive therapy, and perhaps a life time of pharmaceutical drugs; and for that outcome of ASD, that they themselves created with vaccines. Does it bother you at all Lara Lohne, that the CDC has ignored all of the existing science that directly shows the vaccine links to ASD. I earlier posted a collection of that data and science at #391 and #371

    Take a look at this collection of information, if you think I am incorrect about the subject matter of biomedical treatment protocols. And before you without any review simply brand it and give it a preconceived label of what you think it promotes, actually take the time to review it and find out what it actually does promote.

    Biomedical Treatment in Autism (ASD)

    http://www.vacfacts.info/biomedical-treatment-in-autism-asd.html

  415. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    Lowell and Alber,

    Nice work….thanks for making some sense out of all of this and thanks for caring about the kids!

  416. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    Jeff :
    Lowell and Alber,
    Nice work….thanks for making some sense out of all of this and thanks for caring about the kids!

    Do you support the type of flagrant dishonesty those two engage in?

  417. April 1, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Everyone, remember, this is the man who thinks baking soda can cure cancer. He has nothing of worth to say.

    Oh, thats clearly beyond desperate Grey Falcon; what seems to be your problem that you can not stay on track and actually in any honesty address the subject matter here? So, being you can not address the actual subject matter, you thus attempt to derail the conversation and debate, to an unrelated matter. Do you see how you people are? When you people need to resort to such forms of misguided and false discreditation; you clearly show your own obvious defeat in regard to providing any reply that can actually address and refute what has been put forth here. What is your real name? If your own credibility is of and to be considered of such high regard; why should you need use a character name?

    All people who have cancer, have an overly acidic ph; do some actual unbiased research. However, the use of baking soda by far would not be my only nor prime suggestion in regard to alternative protocols for treatment in the reversal of cancer. There are several options that can include one, several, or all of them.

    Cannabis/Hemp Oil – Cancer Cure

    http://www.vacfacts.info/cannabishemp-oil—cancer-cure.html

  418. April 1, 2013 at 4:46 pm
  419. April 1, 2013 at 4:47 pm
  420. April 1, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    You can choose pharmaceutical drugs, chemo, radiation, and the cutting out of your body parts if you want to; but many people are now choosing to refuse their largely failed and for huge profits cancer industry protocols. Did you actually have anything to reply to as to the vaccine issue, Gray Falcon?

    A Basic Understanding of Naturopathic Health Care

    http://www.vacfacts.info/a-basic-understanding-of-naturopathic-health-care.html

  421. April 1, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    Here is another video for you, and this information directly addresses exactly why the polio vaccine had nothing to do with the actual disappearance of polio; (the reclassification of diagnoses).

  422. April 1, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    The Failure Of The Continued Polio Vaccine Campaign

    http://www.vacfacts.info/failure-of-the-continued-polio-vaccine-campaign.html

  423. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    What is your real name?

    Would you like to address your sockpuppetry and attempted impersonation mentioned above, Lowell?

  424. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    Gray Falcon – you are not to be trusted. I see in your other comments you were making some sort of threats against people with an opposing opinion?
    I find Lowell and Alber to be honest and to actually be trying to help people and help children. People should listen to what they have to say.

  425. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    @lowell

    Why should we believe a known liar like you?

    @jeff

    So you believe in the Obama birther movement, 9/11 conspiracy theories, and NWO? Because you are throwing your lot in with those liars and indirectly saying you believe in those things as well.

  426. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    novalox – I must have missed the comments you speak of. Have those been topics here as well?

  427. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Jeff those happen to be the opinions of Mr. Hubbs, as noted by comments he has made elsewhere.

    By the Jeff, when you going to tell us which MMR vaccine Wakfield was studying for the now retracted Lancet paper? Which if the three used in the UK between 1988 to 1992, and why was there an American child who was not given any of the UK versions of the MMR?

  428. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Jeff, if you bothered to read Lowell’s website, you’f know exactly what we’re talking about. And I wasn’t making threats, I was giving warnings. “Don’t stick your hand near that poisonous snake” is a warning. So is “Don’t treat children like expendible lab rats.”

  429. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    What I can say, about what Lowell has stated here,is that I agree with him 100%.

    Besides, you’re not a very friendly bunch, why would anybody listen? You treat people like garbage, which always raises red flags in my book. If you truly believed in what you were saying, you wouldn’t have to be so negative to others.

  430. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 5:49 pm

    Jeff, then you agree that youtube videos are science? Along with webpages that are just lists of other webpages (and more youtube videos)?

    Mr. Hubbs is not a nice person, and has called us several names. And yet, we are the one treating people like “garbage”? Please, do tell me where I was treating him like “garbage.” I would like to know in order to conduct myself better.

  431. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 6:24 pm

    Chris…..youtube is merely a meccanism to relay information. The information could be good or bad and has nothing to do with youtube itself. That’s like saying everything you state on this page is bad because this is a blog/website. So you agree that blogs/websites are science?

  432. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    youtube is merely a meccanism to relay information

    Trying to substitute YouTube videos for argumentation in a written forum is merely a sign of laziness, inability to actually express an argument, or both. They’re a waste of everyone’s time.

  433. Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Fanaticism made simple: Jeff will happily agree with anyone who supports his views about vaccination, no matter how obviously deranged and reprehensible they are.

  434. April 1, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    @Jeff – actual citations of scientific research, studies, etc. are science and evidence…..youtube videos, in themselves, are not Science.

  435. April 1, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    You Tube videos are a joke. If anyone here thinks You Tube is science, they need to have their head examined. WTF has happened to critical thinking???? You Tube Science??? Gaaaggghhhhh….choke…….gasp……

  436. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    And you are going to tell me that we should trust for the answers to health care, these same said people that out of many years of schooling have the average doctor, MD at the most at best have had only less than half a day spent being taught any form of nutritional understanding of health care?

    In the “at most at best” category, Lowell, you’re off by a factor of 17.5. Who cares? That’s what NDs are for. If your PCP diagnoses you with, say, gout, you’ll be “slambed” with nutritional advice by the “same said” “average doctor, MD.”

  437. April 1, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    One thing people seem to be missing here. The “increase” in Autism may well be just the fact that Psychologists, Shrinks, Pharma Companies and sleeze bag lawyers all have a vested interest in more cases of Autism being “discovered.” Health insurance will pay for the psychological help and testing done for Autism, the pharma companies will make more money selling their anti-Autism snake oil, and of couse the lawyers will sue and threaten to sue everyone they can, the truth be damned.

  438. April 1, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    I find it interesting that each and every time this gets on a roll, that I end up being blocked from reply posting with either my facebook and/or wordpress account. One of these times hopefully it will actually publish my reply, after now repeated attempts with this site cycling through the publish process, but yet nothing going up in the comments.

    Deranged and reprehensible, Gray Falcon; really? What do you call refusing to acknowledge the real and existing vaccine science that clearly shows not only the physiological harm done by vaccines, but also clearly the mechanisms by which these children have regressed into ASD. And the science has shown that on multiple physiological levels. What have your epidemiological studies which are not actual vaccine safety studies at all, shown us; beyond how they can deliberately spin the numbers if they choose to? Do you realize that those said epidemiological studies were only done on one vaccine and one vaccine ingredient? And you think that so called level of said science is sufficient to make your conclusions? And Lawrence, where is your said vaccine safety and effectiveness SCIENCE? Do we have to go to that CHOP site, or the CDC and realize that there is literally nothing there, again? I earlier posted a collection of that data and science at #391 and #371

  439. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    ^ Blew the blockquote after trying something like eight times to get some version of the reply through. I assume it’s clear who’s who.

  440. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    @lowell

    Again, why should we listen to a proven liar like you?

  441. Lara Lohne
    April 1, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    Well, I’ve tried twice now to reply to Mr. Hubbs and each time it has been blocked. Why I am not able to speak truth and logic but Mr. Hubbs is allowed to turn this forum into his own personal soap box continues to elude and perplex me to no end. Sorry Mr. Hubbs, you will no longer be graced by my commenting.

  442. April 1, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    I can’t believe I am seeing YouTube and Talk Radio shows being used as proof of anything here. Our schools are failing us. Critical thinking is becoming a lost art.

  443. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    I find it interesting that each and every time this gets on a roll, that I end up being blocked from reply posting with either my facebook and/or wordpress account.

    Maybe you didn’t fully clear out that HACK CODE from the BBC, Lowell.

  444. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    Mr. Beattie:

    Our schools are failing us. Critical thinking is becoming a lost art.

    Le sigh. I hope you do not mean everyone here in that far reaching observation. There is a very specific demographic that relies on biased media for their information.

  445. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    Hilariously, Lowell once again deploys his mad IT skillz on his FB page:

    On this article there has apparently been a hack put into so people can not post vaccine truth comments….

    Um, yah, Lowell. Or maybe there are a lot of broken widgets floating around in the world.

  446. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Everyone, remember, this is the man who thinks baking soda can cure cancer. He has nothing of worth to say.

    Right. That’s why over 30,000 people have subscribed to my ‘Vaccination Information Network’ – VINE on Facebook to follow my postings.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vaccination-Information-Network-VINE/69667273997?fref=ts

    What other people think about me is however none of my business. My business is to help make people aware that vaccination is a dangerous fraud and that we need to stop supporting this nonsense by making our and our children’s bodies vaccine-free zones.

    My ultimate goal is to make the world vaccine-free. Time will tell whether this is an achievable goal, but in the meantime I’m very happy about every baby or child I save from being injected with these filthy vaccines in accordance with the government-promoted vaccine child poisoning schedule.

  447. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    Bill Beattie :
    I can’t believe I am seeing YouTube and Talk Radio shows being used as proof of anything here. Our schools are failing us. Critical thinking is becoming a lost art.

    Critical thinking is indeed becoming a lost art, which is why so many people subscribe to the unproven claim that vaccines prevent diseases. You have however to first unplug from the matrix (our commonly-held societal beliefs) in order to see that much if not most of humanity is in the grip of a vaccination propaganda-induced insanity which causes parents to willingly submit their babies and children to be poisoned by the psychopathic members of the Cult of Vaccinology. These parents are unaware that vaccination is just a modern version of child sacrifice, the difference being that children used to be sacrificed to Moloch, while now they are poisoned for profit and for the sake of medical dogma. .

  448. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    Mr. Alber, “argument from popularity” is not science. It could be that some actually find your gaffs amusing. Like the time you decided a poorly drawn fake graph was real (as mentioned in comments #238 and #240).

    Only a person who hates children would like to see them get sick with measles, mumps, polio, pertussis, etc. That is what happens when there are no vaccines. Which is why 41 Japanese babies died of pertussis:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991

  449. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    Narad :

    youtube is merely a meccanism to relay information

    Trying to substitute YouTube videos for argumentation in a written forum is merely a sign of laziness, inability to actually express an argument, or both. They’re a waste of everyone’s time.

    I disagree Narad. The psychopaths who run the vaccination racket block any real information which would expose the real nature and purpose of vaccination programmes – which is to promote, not to prevent ill-health.

    Hence, Blogs, YouTube videos and Facebook have become avenues for expressing other viewpoints which in my opinion are far closer to reality than the Mickey Mouse science promulgated by the main stream media, the medical authorities and the pharmaceutical industry which profits from the systematic, government-supported poisoning of defenceless babies and children under the guise of disease prevention.

  450. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 10:43 pm

    By the way, Mr. Beattie, there are other reasons for lack of critical thinking in even well educated individuals. It is why one person on this comment thread has been arrested several times, and has issues with his medication. It is also why a family member of ours committed suicide.

    I do try to be polite, and try to restrain overt mocking (I try to point out behavior, but sometimes I fail), because it involves a collection of illnesses that occurs as much as autism. Some people like Patty Duke do find ways to deal with these issues, others, like our late relative, do not.

    All we can do is point out logical flaws, stay polite, do not use profanity and hope that lurkers understand the difference in the quality of evidence that is presented.

  451. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    novalox :
    @lowell
    Why should we believe a known liar like you?
    @jeff
    So you believe in the Obama birther movement, 9/11 conspiracy theories, and NWO? Because you are throwing your lot in with those liars and indirectly saying you believe in those things as well.

    The most outrageous conspiracy theory I have ever come across regarding 9/11 is the claim that some Arabs armed with box cutters outwitted the US defence of their airspace and crashed hijacked planes into the WTC towers and the Pentagon. To me, this claim is as idiotic as the claim that injecting babies and children with toxic chemicals and foreign protein including bits of monkey kidney, chick embryo and aborted human foetus cells will protect them against infectious diseases. As Alan Watts has pointed out: “The psychopaths at the top impose a psychopathic culture on the rest of us.”

    Indeed. Idiocracy is not a futuristic society as portrayed in the movie of the same name; it seems obvious to me that we live in Idiocracy NOW!

  452. Erwin Alber
    April 1, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Chris – also, his belief that he has “Secret Knowledge” about the Real History of Medicine is another example of the full embrace of the “fringe” mentality.

    So you feel superior and secure in the notion you have subscribed to that mainstream medical history is correct, Lawrence? If so, you live in Lalaland.

    “It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted in a society which is profoundly sick.”
    J Krishnamurti

    There is also this one, by Aldous Huxley:

    “Medical science has made such tremendous progress that there is hardly a healthy human left.” Indeed – in my opinion mostly though not exclusively thanks to vaccination.

  453. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    Mr. Alber, is there any particular reason we should accept your opinion over scientific data?

  454. April 1, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    Mr. Alber, Were you aware that you and pro-vaccine activists have the same goal, to make the world vaccine free? However, vaccine activists believe we should eliminate the diseases with vaccine, thus eliminating the need for vaccination. That, by far, is a better and more worthy goal to fight for than just refusing vaccines and allowing vaccine preventable diseases to take hold within the population again. I would prefer a world without vaccines, as well as without diseases that they prevent. How do you see the end to vaccination happening using your agenda?

  455. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    FYI Bill….this isn’t true…

    “One thing people seem to be missing here. The “increase” in Autism may well be just the fact that Psychologists, Shrinks, Pharma Companies and sleeze bag lawyers all have a vested interest in more cases of Autism being “discovered.” Health insurance will pay for the psychological help and testing done for Autism, the pharma companies will make more money selling their anti-Autism snake oil, and of couse the lawyers will sue and threaten to sue everyone they can, the truth be damned.”

    On the contrary, in my state you can’t get insurance if you have autism.

  456. Jeff
    April 1, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    Erwin – A big thank you for all that you do!!!

  457. Chris
    April 1, 2013 at 11:18 pm

    Jeff, same question for you: Why should we care about your opinion instead of scientific data? What is your plan to prevent children from getting measles? Provide verifiable documentation that the method you present actually works.

  458. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 11:41 pm

    That’s why over 30,000 people have subscribed to my ‘Vaccination Information Network’ – VINE on Facebook to follow my postings.

    So, less than half of PoolSupplyWorld? Fantastic. How are your engagement statistics, Erwin?

  459. novalox
    April 1, 2013 at 11:50 pm

    @erwin alber

    Again, [citation needed].

  460. Narad
    April 1, 2013 at 11:56 pm

    I disagree Narad. The psychopaths who run the vaccination racket block any real information which would expose the real nature and purpose of vaccination programmes – which is to promote, not to prevent ill-health.

    Hence, Blogs, YouTube videos and Facebook have become avenues for expressing other viewpoints which in my opinion are far closer to reality than the Mickey Mouse science promulgated by the main stream media, the medical authorities and the pharmaceutical industry which profits from the systematic, government-supported poisoning of defenceless babies and children under the guise of disease prevention.

    You seem to have missed the part where simply regurgitating YouTube links in lieu of actually being able to construct an argument is a slovenly waste of everybody’s time. It might play with the tinfoil-hat crowd that seems to populate your FB page (e.g., “UK and US are principal agents of the Pope”), which is mainly a link aggregator with essentially no substantive prose on your part, but if one wants to venture out from such echo chambers, mantras and videos aren’t going to cut it.

  461. Erwin Alber
    April 2, 2013 at 12:17 am

    Lara Lohne :
    Mr. Alber, Were you aware that you and pro-vaccine activists have the same goal, to make the world vaccine free? However, vaccine activists believe we should eliminate the diseases with vaccine, thus eliminating the need for vaccination. That, by far, is a better and more worthy goal to fight for than just refusing vaccines and allowing vaccine preventable diseases to take hold within the population again. I would prefer a world without vaccines, as well as without diseases that they prevent. How do you see the end to vaccination happening using your agenda?

    Our differences in opinion stem from our differing interpretations of reality Lara. I used to believe in vaccination as well until I came across information which clearly shows that vaccines have never prevented anything, apart from health, sanity and common sense, and that the only sensible thing is therefore to shut down the entire vaccine industry for good, to put an end to the mayhem and chaos caused by vaccinations.

    Germany suspended whooping cough vaccination for 16 years (1975 – 1991) yet predicted epidemics and resulting deaths never eventuated. Similarly, when the WHO declared that smallpox had been “eradicated” and vaccination against the disease was suspended, experts predicted the return of smallpox epidemics but this didn’t happen either.

    There have been no cases of wild polio in developed nations for the past 40 years, all the cases of paralytic polio having been caused by the vaccine itself, yet babies continue to be vaccinated against polio. Why? It’s all so much nonsense, including the fact that in vaccine-crazy America newborn babies are jabbed against hepatitis B – I guess in case they engage in drug abuse with dirty needles or engage in promiscuous sex! It’s all sheer and utter madness, yet there is method in it: a few people are getting filthy rich at the expense of children’s health and intelligence, and indeed at the expense of any semblance of sanity in our society, sanity having become an endangered entity as our institutions and our minds have increasingly been taken over by the madness which inevitably follows if people subscribe to the belief in vaccination as disease prevention.

    I recommend this interview which offers a realistic appraisal of the vaccination issue:

    http://www.alternative-doctor.com/vaccination/rappaport.htm

    .

  462. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 12:19 am

    There is also this one, by Aldous Huxley:
    “Medical science has made such tremendous progress that there is hardly a healthy human left.”

    In other news, the Bates method still doesn’t work. Perhaps you should try following Huxley’s later trajectory, though, Erwin. It’s unlikely that 500 mics a week could leave you any worse off.

  463. Erwin Alber
    April 2, 2013 at 12:28 am

    Chris :
    Jeff, same question for you: Why should we care about your opinion instead of scientific data? What is your plan to prevent children from getting measles? Provide verifiable documentation that the method you present actually works.

    You make the mistake of assuming that that everyone shares the medical-pharmaceutical mafia’s goal of preventing and eradicating measles Chris. This assumption is false because I for one was never asked whether I wanted measles to be prevented or eradicated. Are measles the medical profession’s intellectual property they can do with as they in their appalling ignorance see fit? I for one don’t think so. I and virtually everyone else in my age group ( I was born in 1945) had at least one and often several childhood illnesses, yet I never came across a single case of permanent damage and I can’t remember the bodies of dead children littering the streets. On the contrary, we developed strong immune systems and life-long immunity. The fear of germs is the root of so much evil including vaccinations on this planet. It would in my opinion have been a good thing to put Jenner, Pasteur, Salk and Sabin against a wall and to shoot them before they got a chance to unleash their misguided ideas on a gullible public.

  464. Erwin Alber
    April 2, 2013 at 12:40 am

    Narad :

    I disagree Narad. The psychopaths who run the vaccination racket block any real information which would expose the real nature and purpose of vaccination programmes – which is to promote, not to prevent ill-health.
    Hence, Blogs, YouTube videos and Facebook have become avenues for expressing other viewpoints which in my opinion are far closer to reality than the Mickey Mouse science promulgated by the main stream media, the medical authorities and the pharmaceutical industry which profits from the systematic, government-supported poisoning of defenceless babies and children under the guise of disease prevention.

    You seem to have missed the part where simply regurgitating YouTube links in lieu of actually being able to construct an argument is a slovenly waste of everybody’s time. It might play with the tinfoil-hat crowd that seems to populate your FB page (e.g., “UK and US are principal agents of the Pope”), which is mainly a link aggregator with essentially no substantive prose on your part, but if one wants to venture out from such echo chambers, mantras and videos aren’t going to cut it.

    The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie regardless of the messenger or how the message is conveyed Narad. It’s being able to tell the difference which is important. I used to believe that vaccination is brilliant medical science until I came to realise that is nothing but a massive fraud dressed up as disease prevention by means of junk science. I now cringe to think that as recently as 40 years ago I allowed a doctor to inject me with a tetanus booster! I am so glad that I am no longer a member of the Cult of Vaccinology and that my faculties for critical and independent thinking have been restored.

    “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.”

    Charles Mackay

    I sincerely hope that you will join the ranks of those of us who have recovered their senses, Narad. The alternative is to live a life of delusional insanity engendered by the belief that vaccines prevent diseases.

  465. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 12:46 am

    It’s all so much nonsense, including the fact that in vaccine-crazy America newborn babies are jabbed against hepatitis B – I guess in case they engage in drug abuse with dirty needles or engage in promiscuous sex!

    Which, of course, is why 178 other countries had adopted infant hep B immunization by 2010. Here, Erwin [MMWR 51(25)].

  466. Chris
    April 2, 2013 at 12:48 am

    Mr. Alber:

    This assumption is false because I for one was never asked whether I wanted measles to be prevented or eradicated.

    Why? And why should we care about your opinion about measles, which kills about 380 children per day on this planet (see link in comment #80)? Is there some reason you want children to die and become permanently disabled?

    Your personal experience is not data. You were lucky, but Olivia Dahl was not, along with several hundred thousand per year on this planet.

  467. Narad
    April 2, 2013 at 1:00 am

    I sincerely hope that you will join the ranks of those of us who have recovered their senses, Narad.

    I never lost mine in the first place, Erwin. It is hilarious that your efforts at argumentation by aphorism have turned to Mackay, though:

    In our own day, a similar fate awaited the beneficent discovery of Dr. Jenner. That vaccination could abate the virulence of, or preserve from, the smallpox, was quite incredible; none but a cheat and a quack could assert it: but that the introduction of the vaccine matter into the human frame could endow men with the qualities of a cow, was quite probable. Many of the poorer people actually dreaded that their children would grow hairy and horned as cattle, if they suffered them to be vaccinated.

    Five hundred mics, Erwin. Open the doors of perception.

  468. April 2, 2013 at 4:31 am

    Wow Mr Hubbs this is so impressive!! I was actually supportive of vaccines until I read your so sciency and meticulously crafted evidence from those antivax propaganda sites. How stupid of me to imagine they saved all those lives, huh? But now thanks to you I know that most diseases are caused by vaccines, that sugar causes polio, and that baking soda cures cancer!

    I never realized before how such paltry evidence could be promoted in order to trump the decades of accumulated science produced by the entire medical research community, the CDC and WHO! The Bigpharma conspiracy is just so overwhelming… just about every single scientist, medic, teacher and epidemiologist on the planet has to be involved if you are to be believed. And you are just so believable! Quite amazing how deep this evil pharma conspiracy goes huh?

    And that MO of evading answering questions you don’t like is just so admirable! I’ll have to borrow that one if I may. You have got a huge fan now. I look forward to reading more of your posts here and elsewhere. You must give me a list of all your sockpuppets so I know who to look out for!

  469. April 2, 2013 at 4:55 am

    Erwin Alber :

    Germany suspended whooping cough vaccination for 16 years (1975 – 1991) yet predicted epidemics and resulting deaths never eventuated. Similarly, when the WHO declared that smallpox had been “eradicated” and vaccination against the disease was suspended, experts predicted the return of smallpox epidemics but this didn’t happen either.

    Your post is somewhat confusing, Mr Alber.
    I thought the reason smallpox vaccination was stopped was because it had finally achieved the goal of eradicating the disease. That’s what everyone – WHO, UN etc said anyhow. And there was no return to epidemics because….the disease had been eradicated. …Doh!
    Yet you say “experts” predicted there would be a return to a smallpox pandemic? Could you oblige by providing a citation link to the evidence from these “experts”, since I’d really like to check it and check them to see whether they went to elementary school, never mind graduated from medical school. Thanks.

    Also your comments about pertussis vaccination in Germany are a little hard to follow. I always understood that in East Germany, where pertussis vaccination was mandatory for every child, that cases declined until the incidence was around one per 100,000 population. Fantastic proof of efficacy, you would agree? Yet in West Germany, where vaccination was stopped in 1974 as you point out, the incidence in the 70s and 80s was 180/100,000. Now how do you explain the difference? It seems that similar differences were seen in lots of other countries too…. Perhaps you could read this article, and give us your “expert” opinion on it? Many thanks.

    http://spock.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

    Thanks.

  470. April 2, 2013 at 6:46 am

    Erwin Alber :

    It would in my opinion have been a good thing to put Jenner, Pasteur, Salk and Sabin against a wall and to shoot them before they got a chance to unleash their misguided ideas on a gullible public.

    Mr Alber, please do not bother trying to answer my earlier questions.
    After reading more of your views on the matter of vaccination (as above for example) I do not value your opinions on anything whatsoever, and wish to hear no more of them, thank you.

  471. April 2, 2013 at 7:58 am

    @Erwin – that kind of conspiracy-mongering in the face of over a hundred years of medical advancement, massive decreases in infant mortality & increases in overall life-expectancy, combined with the 95 – 99.9% reduction of incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases (including the eradication of smallpox completely & the elimination of domestic measles in the US) shows us just how far down the rabbit hole you actually are & why your opinions aren’t worth the protons they are printed on.

  472. Marsha
    April 3, 2013 at 2:41 am

    Lowell & Erwin when the opposiion goes to the trouble of making blogs about you to knit pick & attack you instead of sincerely addressing your truthful messages you know you are important & a threat. To those who really know you, you are real heroes who love children & we thank you. You have done the proper research & it shows very clearly as you teach to wake many. Thank you again & all like you. Thank you too Jeff for your input. Glad to have you on our team. Soon we will win this war waged against us & our children by this ignorant & barbaric practice thanks to those like you. We are getting to where we need be & the proof is in the fact many have stopped vaccinating as the world wakes.

  473. Narad
    April 3, 2013 at 3:59 am

    when the opposiion goes to the trouble of making blogs about you to knit [sic] pick & attack you instead of sincerely addressing your truthful messages you know you are important & a threat

    Well, at least from this one can infer that you, Marsha, admit that you are are neither. Nor, by this metric, is Erwin, as nobody I’m aware of has bothered to create a blog following his aimless, generally content-free, exploits (although it’s quite possible that you still haven’t figured out the meaning of the word). Lowell, however, gets this honor simply because his prolific, semiliterate, paranoid, delusional, and hypocritical ravings deserve a certain enshrinement. He’s important, but in precisely the opposite sense of that which you meant.

  474. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 10:21 am

    Marsha, do you agree with Erwin when he says in comment #254: “The most outrageous conspiracy theory I have ever come across regarding 9/11 is the claim that some Arabs armed with box cutters outwitted the US defence of their airspace and crashed hijacked planes into the WTC towers and the Pentagon.”

    And also do you agree when he says in comment #466: “It would in my opinion have been a good thing to put Jenner, Pasteur, Salk and Sabin against a wall and to shoot them before they got a chance to unleash their misguided ideas on a gullible public.”

    Marsha, do you sincerely believe that scientists should be executed by a firing squad? Which would be criminal. And are you also a “9/11 Truther”?

    And, as Narad pointed out, Lowell just does not make any sense. So he stated no clear “truth.” He is the one who brought up SIDS and was confused why it does not make sense to bring it up when the vaccine in under discussion, MMR, is not given until a child is at least a year old.

  475. novalox
    April 3, 2013 at 11:38 am

    @marsha

    Still trying to stir up opposition on your facebook page, eh?

    The fact that you would rather see children die or be maimed from vaccine-preventable diseases rahter than being protected from those diseases due to following a proven false pseudo-hypothesis is downright monstrous.

  476. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Right back at you Marsha! Thanks again to Lowell and Erwin for watching over our children.

  477. Gray Falcon
    April 3, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    If Lowell or Erwin were watching over any children, I’d call the police.

  478. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    Jeff, do you agree with Erwin that scientists should be executed by a firing squad?

  479. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Hello Chris, I really don’t know the context of the story, so I really can’t comment on it. I do know that Erwin cares about people and does what he can to help anybody. I’ve seen him do it via face book and if there were more people like him in the world, it would be a much better place. He is genuine and the real deal.

  480. novalox
    April 3, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    @jeff

    So we can assume that you are a 9/11 truther, believe in NWO, and approve the murder to scientists and doctors that disagree with erwin’s viewpoint.

    Because you implicitly state that you believe in those viewpoints, given your comments.

  481. Gray Falcon
    April 3, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    You mean this very thread Jeff. Don’t support someone if you never bother to read what they say!

  482. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Then go back and look at where Erwin made the comment, it is right on this page at comment #466. If you agree with everything he wrote, then it would seem you then think it is acceptable to execute scientists you don’t like with a firing squad.

    If he really cared about people he would not be claiming that vaccines cause more injuries than the diseases, or that they do not work. If you agree with him, then you need to answer these two questions:

    1. Provide the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show there is more harm from the MMR vaccine than measles, mumps and rubella.

    2. If vaccines do not work, then look at the following census data and tell why incidence of measles in the USA fell by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Do not mention deaths, do not mention any other country, do not mention any other decade and do not mention any other disease:
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  483. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Hello novalox….you can assume if you want to, but you know what that does :)

  484. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    Hi Chris….I never said I agreed with everyhting he wrote, I couldn’t because I haven’t read all of it. All I know is what I have witnessed on face book, which is Erwin really cares about people, helps when he can and is sincere about it. I may not know all of his beliefs, or agree with them, but I do know that he is A-Ok in my book and a very good human being to say the least.
    How often do the regular posters on this site actually go out and help people? If you do – good for you, because that is what life is all about.
    We may not all agree on vaccines or anything else, but we should all be helping and supporting each other. Do some good in the world, being postive, lending a hand.

  485. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    How is lying about the science of vaccines “helping” people? It makes children more vulnerable to actually getting measles, mumps, pertussis and tetanus. It was lies like his that almost killed a little boy in his country: ‘It was hideous’ – family’s tetanus agony. If you think he is telling the truth about vaccines, then answer my questions.

    And, no, if he thinks scientists should be shot by a firing squad, he is by definition not a good person.

  486. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    By the way, Jeff, this is a direct quote by you: “I find Lowell and Alber to be honest and to actually be trying to help people and help children. People should listen to what they have to say.”

    Now prove that Erwin is “honest” by answering my questions in comment #485 about measles.

  487. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    Hi Chris, I’m not here to argue with you. There really isn’t any reason to do so. I don’t want to get caught up in any negative debates. Life is too short. I’m not going to change your opinion and you won’t change mine and that’s OK. Do what you gotta do and so will I.

    Have a good day/night Chris.

    Jeff

  488. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Jeff, just be aware that each time you praise persons who have unsavory pasts, you will get the same type of questions.

  489. dingo199
    April 3, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    Jeff, if you don’t wish to be called out on your specious and cynical support for people who admit they wish to shoot scientists by firing squad and wish to leave millions of vulnerable children at risk of disease and death from vaccine preventable diseases, then go away.

  490. Jeff
    April 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    Hi dingo, your’e a friendly fellow.

  491. Narad
    April 3, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    All I know is what I have witnessed on face book, which is Erwin really cares about people, helps when he can and is sincere about it. I may not know all of his beliefs, or agree with them, but I do know that he is A-Ok in my book and a very good human being to say the least.

    Sure thing. As I’ve noted, his FB page is little more than a link aggregator, which is a wise choice on Erwin’s part, as he basically discredits himself further with every attempt to extemporize.

    BTW, when does Erwin “go out and help people”?

  492. Chris
    April 3, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    Another person’s observations on Erwin’s “science”:

    http://sci-vax.blogspot.com/2012/11/vine-background-you-need-to-know.html

  493. April 3, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    @Chris – all good information. Definitely bookmarked for future use.

  494. Matt
    April 5, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Wow, great posts Lloyd Phillips, Erwin, Sad Grandma, etc.! What impressive scientific evidence in the study Mr. Phillips posted a link to proving that vaccines often cause neurological damage. And Erwin, I agree, no one worried about measles when I and all other children got it before the measles vaccine came out. A few people died of measles pneumonia and even fewer sometimes died of measles encephalitis, but a lot of people have died from MMR encephalitis and the other adverse events often caused by it. There are risks either way, but I’d much rather avoid the horrible permanent damage often caused by vaccines.

  495. Gray Falcon
    April 5, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    @Matt- You do know you’re supporting a Holocaust denier, don’t you?

  496. novalox
    April 5, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    @matt

    [citation needed], since the others did not support their viewpoints with actual facts.

  497. NLB
    April 5, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    I’ve got your back novalox!

  498. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    Matt, before the measles vaccine was introduced in the early 1960s, around 400 died each year in the USA from measles. That was when the population was much smaller.

    Here are the 1950 numbers from the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:

    Disease____Cases__Deaths
    Diphtheria__5796_____410
    Tetanus_____486_____336
    Pertussis_120718____1118
    Polio_____33300____1904
    Measles__319124_____468
    Total_____479424____4236

    Remember sixty years ago the population of the USA was half of what it is now, and without vaccines those numbers would be higher. Matt, why do you think it is okay that between 400 and 600 kids died from measles each year? And that several more were permanently disabled due to the disease?

    And since Lowell, Erwin, Jeff and others (Lloyd Phillips was always off topic) have not bothered to answer with any data, you should answer the questions I asked in Comment #485. Remember, I expect real citations.

  499. April 5, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    Measles for most children was easily recovered from and suvivalble. We had the vaccine as kids, and still came down with the measles; I know I did in the 60’s. We still have known outbreask in the vaccinated, today. So why is it that you do not beleive that risk of the vaccine is not worth any consideration here? That is because you refuse to acknowledge the major risks of the MMR vaccine. There is plenty of actual study scicne showing the clear risk of the MMR vaccine. All of the CDC data has been clearly schewed and nothing the CDC has put forth for numbers has ever been anything but more false and fear mongering propganda.

    Dr Andrew Wakefield – MMR Vaccine – Truth and Reality

    http://www.vacfacts.info/dr-andrew-wakefield—mmr-vaccine—truth-and-reality.html

  500. April 5, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    NLB :
    I’ve got your back novalox!

    Well, you better get and have his back on this one, how do you explain all of this existing and available unbiased and non pharma/CDC connected science, and I might add, that directly shows the mechanisms of vaccine harm and as well the links to ASD? Why has the CDC not acknowledged all that when it is as well much of it published right in Pubmed? Why has the CDC as well, never had any vaccine aluminum adjuvant studies? The FDA classified aluminum in general as GRAS, generally regarded as safe over 80 years ago, and has never done anything since but call for safety data and safety studies that have never arrived. Why is that? Do you realize that you can find that information right in the CDC’s own documents, and by their own admission? What about vaccine contamination, does that concern you at all? Will you deny that there is a serious issue remaining unresolved, in regard to vaccine contamination; Gardasil being by far not the only example, but the prime example of the both the CDC and FDA sitting on their duffs and doing nothing but making denial of the clear harm done; and whitewashing the whole situation.

    The REAL Vaccine Damage and Harm Science

    http://www.vacfacts.info/the-vaccine-damage—science.html

  501. April 5, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    This should be concering to anyone concerned with vaccine safety.

    Aluminum Adjuvants – Lack of Safety Data – Lack of Aluminum Adjuvant Safety Studies

    http://www.vacfacts.info/aluminum-vaccine-adjuvants.html

  502. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 6:32 pm

    Mr. Hubbs, you are not a reliable source of information.

  503. Marsha
    April 5, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    The spam filter must have taken my last post. I will recreate it by trying to break it down. Not that it was long, it wasn’t. I began by thanking you, Lowell, for your latest input & went on to say, before I present extreme evidence which cannot be denied that vaccines not only can cause serious injury & permanent damage including autism & death but I wanted to thank you, Matt, for having your say, too. Speaking out on behalf of saving children is much needed & will be what saves them for posterity. We must recruit as many as possible as the opposition has so we have regulars in forums & at articles like this one so real truth is heard & stands out. We must also hit the streets as many are doing to wake the masses.

    We have a fairly new movement telling it like it is with billboards going up across the nation evidenced by going to vaxtruth.org. This movement is now going global, too.

  504. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Marsha, again we ask since you support Erwin: do you believe that scientists you don’t like should be executed by a firing squad?

    And, please, answer the questions I posted in Comment #485.

  505. Gray Falcon
    April 5, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    @Marsha- Without evidence, your movement is nothing more than a witch hunt.

  506. NLB
    April 5, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    lowell….you make some very valid points. I’ll have to do some more research. Thanks so much!

  507. April 5, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    @Gray – more like a “pro-disease” movement, because they would be more than happy to return to the days of 50% infant mortality…..

  508. Marsha
    April 5, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    To continue, I’m the sad grandmother you thanked, Matt. I have grandchildren, nieces & nephews as well as thousands of friends & family members of autistic & vaccine injured or damaged children from mild to severe.

    The one here who claims having autistic children is not a nightmare should know some of my friends whose children eat their own feces and/or are in too much pain where they cannot even tell their Mommas what’s wrong because their voices have been snuffed out by vaccines & the ignorance & greed behind them. Not that vaccines are the only toxins causing harm let loose on our children & condoned by such fraudulent agencies such as the FDA who at first really did have mankind’s well being at heart.

    Thank the good God is we have people like Erwin & Lowell who work these forums & articles in order to save other’s children from horrible & unnecessary fate so many have met. Lowell & Erwin are the real heroes so that’s why the opposition goes to the trouble of creating blogs of opinion & such against them. When we use blogs or videos they discredit such means of education purposely overlooking credible content within but it’s okay when they use such means.

    The regulars are here & in other places like this to deceive, To twist & take words out of context, actually cherry picking, in order to distract so fact & evidence can’t surface concerning the vaccine cover up.

    Erwin has over 33 thousand at his VINE site which teaches all about vaccines as well as other toxins taking our children out, delivered by air, food, water & bad drugs. He is extremely knowledgeable & passionate about his work so that’s why he’s such a big target of the pro vaccine crowd who are against anything alternative that might cut into the profits of the big boys & girls behind the greed.

    They made fun of Erwin here due to his telling of baking soda helping fight cancer. It’s true. You have to get the pure form at health food stores because regular has aluminum in it.

    Alkalized water is of great benefit because cancer can’t live in an alkalized state. Then there’s the amazing Graviola only grown on fruit trees in Brazil & Florida. It comes in capsule form & the testimonials are awesome & real. Graviola not only shrinks tumors, I have been witness to this myself & it cures cancer, too.

    Citations are not needed as our people are smart enough to find & identify credible ones by doing their own research.

    I have one more thing to say in my next comment before I present that amazing & undeniable proof that vaccines cause much injury, autism & death.

  509. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    Marsha, taking note that Erwin has advocating killing scientists on this thread is not making fun of him. And it was definitely not cherry picking.

    Now, Marsha and NLB, please answer the questions I asked in Comment #485.

  510. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    Marsha:

    Citations are not needed as our people are smart enough to find & identify credible ones by doing their own research.

    No, Marsha, citations are needed. It is not that “your people” are smart enough, it is that you wish to perpetuate your lies. Now, produce the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

  511. April 5, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @Marsha – please stay on topic & provide some real evidence (not that you can).

  512. Marsha
    April 5, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    Gray Falcon :@Marsha- Without evidence, your movement is nothing more than a witch hunt.

    Wrong. The real witch hunt was against Dr. Andrew Wakefield. The true criminal who is on the run is Poul Thorson. Media was okay with dragging the good name of Wakefield through the mud but nary one word on the scientist who worked for the CDC & stole their research money. Look it up. He, Thorsen, was head of the department that put out the fake studies, The Danish studies, that claimed no connection between autism & vaccines they had hoped would put a nail in the coffin of vaccine truth.

    Now for my last word before the bomb.

  513. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    Marsha, how many papers was Poul Thorsen the primary author. I can only find two where he is a secondary author. Can you list all of the other important papers that he was the primary author?

    And, please, is he the author of the papers I listed in comments #50, #158, #161, #258, #260, #261, and #262?

  514. Gray Falcon
    April 5, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    @Marsha- That Wakefield isn’t in prison for his abuse of his medical authority is the real travesty. And we do know about Thorsen, he played a minor role in two papers about vaccination, and his actions did nothing to invalidate the results of either of them.

  515. Chris
    April 5, 2013 at 10:02 pm

    Marsha, make sure the “bomb” does not contain any of the studies mentioned in this article:

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/05/still-no-independent-confirmation-of.html

  516. Robert
    April 6, 2013 at 12:07 am

    Concerning this deception going on here working to hold the good doctor Wakefield in bad light. I will send a different good bomb on this matter after my say, now, about my friend being bullied here & after sending the first bomb I promised that will blow all this bogus rhetoric right out of the water.

    People should not be mean spirited here. My friend Christina was treated very bad as usually is the case when pro vax pushers attack the messengers instead of the message. Everyone paying attention knows that’s because they can’t stamp out our message as we are the truth tellers & those who work to dupe our people & those they have fooled can clearly be seen for what is actually what now a days. Thank the good that God is for that.

    My friend claimed a video was great & said she was about to watch it. Of course one of the regulars here used that against her working to discourage & discredit her & my friend hasn’t posted since. She was above bothering to explain because that would be playing into the known game of back & forth designed to discourage & distract from truth. She refuses to play & it is understandable.

    Christina had no time for that game & I thank her for trying to help which she did but the truth she sent, as always by anyone telling it, was ignored, ridiculed & she was bullied. Hopefully many silent are watching & taking in what Christina shared as well as all the other sincere & genuine fact sent by many. Lord knows we don’t do this for those laying wait to bash us.

    I will explain for her. I know the video made reference to that she said was great before she watched it. I read reviews & watched it discussed in my groups as I’m sure she has as she is in our vaccine injury & autism network. It is great as many videos & interviews of which we have seen & we don’t have to see them to claim them great. Some of us have little time to watch them all. I usually get around to them but I am allowed to claim greatness if I know them to be & so is Christina. Thank you for being kind as you bring what you beLIEve to be truth to our table.

  517. April 6, 2013 at 12:16 am

    Robert, are you willing to answer my questions in comment #485?

    And who is “Christina” and what video are you referring to?

  518. Gray Falcon
    April 6, 2013 at 12:16 am

    @Robert- Do you have any evidence? Do you want to live in a world where one can be indicted without evidence?

  519. Marsha
    April 6, 2013 at 12:20 am

    That is my post where Robert shows above My husband Bob had a message for you & logged in to have his say. Before he could get back at it I beat him to the computer so he will have to wait. Yes, he believed I was crazy as he said earlier but now he knows the truth.

    So here is the first part of my bomb up for real discussion by any sincere people. I had wondered what ever happened to Rep. Dan Burton. This is recent & the next link is most eye opening.

    Remember, those saying videos are not credible evidence & a joke are wrong. The content is what matters.

  520. Gray Falcon
    April 6, 2013 at 12:34 am

    @Marsha- If I posted a video calling you a mass murderer, would that be enough to have you executed?

  521. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:41 am

    Marsha, given all that has been said on this thread, it seems that you are joking by posting a video. Your “bomb” bombed.

  522. NLB
    April 6, 2013 at 12:42 am

    Resorting to threats GF?

  523. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:46 am

    The comment policy, NLB and Gray Falcon please take note:

    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;

    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.

    Mr/Ms Gray, I know you are trying to make a point, but please remember the relative maturity of those who you are trying to communicate that point to. They need a slightly different approach.

  524. Marsha
    April 6, 2013 at 12:47 am

    For the one who claimed having an autistic child is not a nightmare watch this child.in the beginning of this eye opening video. Congressman Dan Burton from ten years ago>>>

    Then as I said before add your child eating their feces & then dare you say this is not a nightmare.

    How about the FDA doctor in this video? She sure helped hang vaccines & the FDA, too, as she tried to dodge & deny as anyone being honest can see. Did you deniers notice there were doctors & scientists who testified as congressman Burton pointed out?

  525. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:51 am

    Oh, and NLB, the website that is linked to your name is a direct attack on a frequent commenter. We know you are the one who has posted frequently with different names, including “Gray Falcon.” Plus you are just another sock puppet, which is a type of liar (trying to make it seem there are more who support your chosen position). Choose a unique name and just stick to it.

  526. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:53 am

    Marsha, do you like to be laughed at? Lose the videos and post real evidence.

  527. Gray Falcon
    April 6, 2013 at 1:05 am

    Chris :
    The comment policy, NLB and Gray Falcon please take note:
    vulgar or abusive language;
    personal attacks of any kind;
    unsupported accusations;

    offensive terms that criticize individuals based upon race/ethnicity/nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.;
    spam or unsolicited advertisements; and
    marketing copy that promotes services or products.
    Mr/Ms Gray, I know you are trying to make a point, but please remember the relative maturity of those who you are trying to communicate that point to. They need a slightly different approach.

    Sorry about that. Perhaps I should have asked “Would a youtube video alleging a crime be sufficient for a conviction?”

  528. Robert
    April 6, 2013 at 1:41 am

    wh

    Chris :
    Marsha, do you like to be laughed at? Lose the videos and post real evidence.

    Why Chris? Do you think the videos are fake? Did you even watch them? Is that child acting? Are they all acting? Is the congressman lying? Did the scientists and doctors who were at that congressional hearing lie? Is that not a real doctor from the FDA stumbling all over herself?

    Marsha is right about vaccines and a good person like many who are trying to warn you. And maybe she’s right about you people here too who believe in vaccines. Some of you may be working to fool people for profit or you yourselves are fooled. You are parrots just like she says who are constantly saying the same things. “Citation please, Answer this answer that, Are you a holocaust denier too.”

    Get real people. You fool only yourselves.

    Oh and can you explain to us Christine how the site linked to NLB’s name is an attack on anyone? I looked and could not see where that could have even a hint of truth. Do you have any proof against NLB and if not how can you say such things and sleep at night? Oh that’s right. You have no hearts because you people running this show seem to think harming and killing children with vaccines which have no real scientific backing is A okay.

    You slander after posting the rules and laugh at my wife, how dare you. Who are you? You know who my wife is. Who are you, again?

  529. novalox
    April 6, 2013 at 2:41 am

    @robert

    [citation needed], since marsha has not provided any actual evidence.

    Pro tip: youtube videos are not considered evidence

    And trying the old pharma shill gambit, a sure sign that you have no argument.

    Also, point out where the so-called slander is located.

    @marsha

    What, who set us up the bomb?

    That was rather pathetic, if I must say, although your posts on your facebook page are something to laugh at. D-K at its finest.

    Again, youtube videos are not evidence.

    So again, [citation needed]

    @nlb

    It’s nice to think that a troll has to go to all that trouble just to make fun of me. It just shows how much I bother him/her/it. I feel that your supposed insults are an implicit way of admitting you cannot support your flawed argument.

    But I admit, you are mildly entertaining, just to see how much more attempts you try just to make fun of me.

  530. April 6, 2013 at 6:33 am

    @Novalox – just ignore the thread-derailing trolls, they consistently refuse to provide any real evidence for their baseless assertions (other than youtube videos, it seems). I also find it very insulting using the descriptions of autistic children that they use – I do know a few autistics in my community & none of them are a “burden or nightmare” as has been routinely described, but instead are wonderful and gifted individuals who are loved by their friends and family.

    Anyone who routinely works with autistic children and adults is horrified by the continued work of the anti-vaccine cadre – who paint their charges as horrible burdens and “damaged goods” when in fact the vast majority of autistics are able to live mostly normal lives and achieve a level of happiness that would have been unknown 50 years ago (when we threw a lot of them into asylums – because we didn’t know any better).

    As to the conspiracy theorists (who, like Marsha above, who mentions Thorsen – which can be easily debunked just by reading the actual literature about his role), I’d like them to try to explain how hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of medical professionals, researchers, educational institutions, government agencies (both foreign and domestic), and corporations could possibly have the time, money, and resources to perpetuate a global policy of concealment of the “Truth” when we can’t even get two countries (or two counties) to cooperate on simple issues like trade, water rights, immigration, etc?

  531. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 10:14 am

    Robert:

    Do you think the videos are fake? Did you even watch them?

    They are not citations with real science. Dan Burton is not a scientist, and has badgered scientists because he did not like what they had to say.

    Continuing to bring up videos as science indicates you, Marsha, Lowell, Erwin, Matt, and the others simply have failed to read this thread and do not understand the basics of evidence. So, again, look at the citations I posted in comments #50, #158, #161, #258, #260, #261, and #262. Some are noted by their PubMed Identification Number, PMID, which means you can find them by putting them in the search box at the top of http://www.pubmed.gov .

    Now, Robert, Marsha, Matt and the NLB sock puppet, answer my questions in Comment #485. The fact that you all refuse to answer also shows you have nothing.

  532. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 10:20 am

    Robert:

    You have no hearts because you people running this show seem to think harming and killing children with vaccines which have no real scientific backing is A okay.

    Citation needed. Show us exactly how we are killing at least 380 children per day due to MMR vaccine. See Comment #80 for source of “380.”

  533. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Also, Marsha and Robert, Dan Burton does not respect adults with autism by restricting their involvement. This was thoroughly demonstrated that the circus he orchestrated last November:

    http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2012/11/congressional-autism-hearing-recap.html

    Marsha, that “bomb” was a dud in more ways than you can count.

  534. Lara Lohne
    April 6, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    My comments are getting lost again.

  535. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    Send them to Christine Vara. This is a good day, I have only lost one comment.

  536. Lara Lohne
    April 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Chris,

    Did you get the email a couple of days ago from Science Based Medicine blog? I forwarded mine to Christine so they could have a little more information regarding the site/commenting issues we are having. Unknown if the two events are really related, it’s just correlation at this point, but it would explain why we’ve been having difficulty with the comments lately.

  537. Chris
    April 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    I don’t think so. I started to have the missing comment problem before the Spam Haus issue.

    Also, this article is making the rounds:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/06/what-happened-man-mmr-panic

  538. Christine Vara
    April 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    Unfortunately, Lara Lohne’s comments have been getting lost again. Therefore, she sent us the following to add to the conversation:

    “Autism is not a nightmare, unless you want it to be. If a child is eating their own feces, perhaps that child needs to be watched a little closer. Perhaps that child has severe sensory issues and this is a sensory seeking activity, or perhaps the child has nourishment issues, and they desperately need something their feces provides them (why some women crave dirt while pregnant if they are severely anemic, etc.) In my opinion, anyone who believes their child having any disability is a nightmare should not be allowed the privilege to have children.

    I found Dan Burton to be ignorant when it comes to scientific evidence, gullible and slightly evil using his political office to further his own agenda in regards to autism rather then doing his job and speaking for the people he was elected by and sent to represent. He had nothing to add to the autism discussion but more fear and misinformation and refused to accept what actual science has found in the past decade relating to autism and particularly relating to vaccinations and thimerosal. A person who refuses to accept new ideas and new data is not one that has an open mind. And that same person has no business being in a position of power like he had, in my opinion.

    I didn’t watch your video. I started to, but given the content (which is just more fear and loathing rhetoric based on what I did watch) it isn’t something my son needs to see. The child shown was obviously in some kind of distress. Why did the parent only sit there recording rather then attempting to help him, figure out what was causing his distress, remove it and calm him down?

    FYI: if a person cannot answer a question because they don’t know, that isn’t dodging the question, that is attempting to bow out gracefully from a question they are unable to answer. A person, naturally, will become flustered when bombarded with questions they cannot answer because it does not pertain to their area of expertise. The tactics used in the government reform committee meetings were nothing but bullying, attempting to get answers from individuals that did not pertain to those individual’s lines of work, therefore they were not able to answer them and when they were unable to answer them for some reason you consider that a victory. It was not a debate, and too many politicians I believe seem to forget that it was not a debate, so there is no winning or losing, except in the fact that the information that is pertinent to the subject at hand was ignored or disregarded and one topic and agenda was pushed. That is not a proper hearing. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves. And again, videos are not evidence, Dan Burton’s opinion and sad clinging to decades old hypothesis is also not evidence. Unless you have credible, scientific evidence to back up your claims, then I believe it’s time for you to move along.”

  539. Christy Wolf
    April 6, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Lawrence,

    I work with children with autism and I don’t believe in vaccines. Also, I have never heard a parent refer to any of their children as damaged goods. In fact, most of them love their children unconditionally and would do anything for them. And a lot of children I worked with have now been recovered. Amazing! Not sure where you are getting your information, but I believe you are misinformed.

  540. Gray Falcon
    April 6, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    @Christy: Clearly you haven’t been reading this thread.

  541. Gray Falcon
    April 7, 2013 at 12:28 am

    @Christy Wolf: On a more serious note, you have no way of knowing that the children you worked with “recovered” was simply due to natural improvement. There is a reason modern scientific methodology exists. Several dangerous and useless medical treatments, such as Spanish fly and bleeding, were developed based on the assumption that any progress a patient made had to be because of the medicine.

  542. Chris
    April 8, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Ms. Wolf, we don’t care about your “beliefs in vaccines”, we care about your evidence. Just post the titles, journals and dates of the PubMed indexed papers on the evidence you have on vaccines. Also please tell us about your published papers on the children with autism that you have recovered. We would be very interested in reading those peer reviewed case reports. Just list the PubMed Identification Numbers of them for us to access them at our local medical school library. Thank you.

  543. April 9, 2013 at 3:16 am

    Stephen :
    I just had to rock my unvaccinated two month old back to sleep and as I was rocking him in the chair I thought to myself: “What do these freaks care if I don’t vaccinate my child? If they are so confident that vaccinations work they can insist on vaccinating their own and if anything they will be a health threat to my child. Not mine to theirs.” Reasonable enough thought isn’t it…?
    Just keep your kid away from mine when it is shedding the virus it was vaccinated for.
    Alright… Off to bed…

    Gee – it’s amazing how you’re more concerned about theoretical shedding of a weakened virus and not exposure to the fully virulent form.

    But, that aside, only the MMR, Varicella and Influenza vaccines are ‘live’ virus vaccines.

    The MMR (or MMRV) are given before children start school, so your child’s theoretical ‘risk’ of exposure to the weakened virus from those is slim. That leaves the flu vaccine as the biggest theoretical ‘risk’ of virus shedding – and that would just mean your child is also immune.

    Us “freaks” understand statistics (something which you are apparently unable to grasp) and relative risk.

  544. Filipo
    April 9, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    @Darwy

    Your blog appears to be down?

  545. Kerrie Meyer
    April 25, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    Definitely genetics and environmental factors. If you test positive with this test, you shouldn’t get any vaccines.

  546. Lara Lohne
    April 25, 2013 at 6:18 pm

    Kerrie Meyer,

    Since vaccines have been shown and shown and shown again to have no link at all to autism, your statement is quite unwarranted and unfounded. If a child is going to have autism, they will have it with or without vaccines. And since a child is going to have autism with or without vaccines, it is better to make sure that child doesn’t have to suffer through debilitating diseases that can maim and kill that child, not to mention the suffering involved. There may be environmental factors that can contribute to the development of autism, but they are all prenatal, not perinatal, therefore vaccines causing or contributing or triggering autism is off the table as a possibility in that mixture.

  547. April 25, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    @Kerrie – then please explain why we see the same rates of autism in vaccinated & unvaccinated populations?

  548. Chris
    April 25, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    Kerrie Meyer, why would you want children with autism to get vaccine preventable illnesses? Would you also withhold other medical care from them like antibiotics for strep throat? That seems a bit cruel.

  549. Ice Man
    April 26, 2013 at 2:40 am

    While I would never give my child this vaccine, at least they are making progress with the gut/brain/autism connection. A vaccine to help with vaccine damage….boy they know how to make the money!

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424112309.htm

  550. April 26, 2013 at 5:30 am

    @IceMan – and your evidence or proof that vaccines are related to autism is what, exactly?

  551. novalox
    April 26, 2013 at 11:49 am

    @ice man

    Using the old pharma shill gambit, a certain sign that your argument has little merit.

    Also, [citation needed] for your assertion that vaccines cause autism in the first place.

  552. April 30, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/04/30/a-few-points-about-steve-walkers-measlesautism-study/

    Yet more information that shows how the anti-vaccine myths are easily demolished and shown to be completely without merit (and how they will lie to try to show things that aren’t there).

  553. July 24, 2013 at 10:37 am

    That article was written in 2006 and not updated since 2009. You’re comments about Dr. Wakefiled and the US Autism gravy train are purely subjective and not true.

    Lawrence :
    @my3sons – actually no:
    http://www.wakehealth.edu/News-Releases/2006/Wake_Forest_Researcher_Warns_Against_Making_Connection_Between_Presence_of_Measles_Virus_and_Autism.htm

  554. July 24, 2013 at 10:50 am

    There’s enough data and connections that it has caused this much controversy and that further testing should be done on combining vaccines. There was no link to autism and other adverse effects with the single vaccine/s that I am aware of, only the combined ones because there wasn’t enough research done before they were pushed on parents. It is a parents right to do what they feel is necessary to protect their children. I for one am not in favor of the combined vaccine. I have a background in pharmacy and know how these vaccines are compounded and the process itself is in question with the introduction of known allergens into infants and that is fact, simply read the ingredient lists on the package inserts, familiarize yourself with what the ingredients are. The people who are arguing against the system only want better testing and safety standards in place and to hold those in authority accountable by asking necessary questions, which should be asked.

    Lawrence :
    @IceMan – and your evidence or proof that vaccines are related to autism is what, exactly?

  555. Lawrence
    July 24, 2013 at 11:15 am

    Yes, the point is that study is “vapor-ware” and was never published.

    Also, you are also incorrect that studies “haven’t been done.”

    http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

    And my comments on Wakefield stand, unless you can show any evidence to the contrary.

  556. Robert
    October 13, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    You know I get sick of seeing you vaccine pushers parrot the lies. When someone tells you facts all you can parrot is, “citation needed”

    You who believe in vaccines are not doing the research for yourselves obviously. ‘Why We Are Still Talking About Vaccines’ is because it’s damage control by those working for profit and those they have fooled to continue the dangerous cover up. The lies need be brought into the open so more will have their eyes opened. So thank you for offering platform with these nonfactual articles where those with the true facts can bury the deception you mis-informed (parrots) and/or criminals behind this human experiment can be seen for what they are and doing.

    I know, I know. “Citation Needed”

  557. Chris
    October 13, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Good, Robert, you know the drill. You understand that “argument from blatant assertion” is worthless. So, when will you come up with actual scientific data instead of conspiracy theories like ” The lies need be brought into the open so more will have their eyes opened.”?

  558. novalox
    October 14, 2013 at 2:31 am

    @robert

    So, any evidence, troll?

  559. Robert
    October 15, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    I understand the drill. And you have seen the facts proving the science behind vaccines is fraud. Study up those of you actually able and willing to do the research this matter deserves. Don’t be a parrot. Know what you speak of as you see these so called, “drills” for what they really are.

  560. Lawrence
    October 15, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    @Robert – and what “facts” would those be? Because all of the legitimate research (including some of which has been quoted and cited above) shows that vaccines are safe, effective, and certainly much better than the diseases they prevent…..

  561. novalox
    October 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    @robert

    So, you admit that you have no evidence for your silly little rants, and that you’ve been actively lying this whole time?

    Good for you to admit that, and that anything that comes from your mouth can be easily dismissed as such.

  562. Chris
    October 15, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    “And you have seen the facts proving the science behind vaccines is fraud.”

    Sorry, Robert, but conspiracy theories do not count as “facts.” The real science shows that vaccines prevent diseases and do not cause autism. You have yet to provide anything based on reality to dispute that conclusion.

  563. October 21, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Don’t believe this! No one has ever answered why, “when your child receives a vaccine, then gets a high fever, and when the fever goes away — you end up with a different child.” The correlation is too strong to be anything but a vaccine. When the medical profession answers why, maybe I’ll start believing doctors, the CDC and big pharma.

  564. Gray Falcon
    October 21, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    If you ask why “when your child eats bread, then gets a high fever, and when the fever goes away — you end up with a different child.” you would end up with the same result. One event following another is not proof of causation.

    And by the way, there are several groups who benefit financially from people’s health improving: The insurance companies, for one. They aren’t exactly small players. If Big Pharma is making money of off faulty vaccines, why isn’t Big Insurance upsetting their apple cart?

  565. Chris
    October 21, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Mr. Warden, please provide the evidence that every high fever results in a changed child. And then provide the PubMed study by a reliable reputable researcher that the fevers from a vaccine more dangerous than the fever from the actual disease.

  566. sarah
    October 23, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    As an epidemiologist it is always apparent in these discussions who actually works with and understands data and who does not. When people speak in definitive terms, “This study proves…”, they don’t understand research. A study isn’t like a pregnancy test. It isn’t immediately reliable. Epidemiological studies aren’t able to “prove” anything and clinical trials are very difficult to generalize. The investigators on the Wake Forest study warned against making any connections between the type of autism they investigated and vaccines. It simply wasn’t a part of their study. It wasn’t what they were investigating. They had some interesting findings that if valid may lead us in more correct directions for autism research. If the measles virus (which prior to vaccines was pretty ubiquitous) has any connection to autism development, we want to know that and be allowed to approach understanding that in an objective manner. Not in an environment of a terrified mob wanting to make extremely dangerous healthcare decisions with no understanding of the evidence they’re pointing to.

    That is science, it’s an iterative process. One, or even 3 studies, can’t prove anything. Using past findings we continue to direct ourselves to future research so that we can come to better understandings of disease. But this process involves constant acts of going back and realizing that past studies were simply wrong or only understood part of the story. We see correlation, but we misinterpret the why. Very often even the correlation turns out to be completely wrong.

    Further measles is still one of the most deadly diseases in the world. Especially for children under 5. And people who say only poor people die are not only being heartless (there are millions of people in this country who live in poverty and are undernourished), they don’t understand disease or healthcare. Managing a persons health is heavily about comorbidities. There are further millions of people in the US who live with immunodefinciencies and compromised immune systems due to literally hundreds of diseases and conditions out there that cause this. Are these people not important because they are poor or have a condition? Also, you have no idea if the child who dies from measles will be yours. Your child becomes infected with measles at 6 months, and wait, in the hospital they discover he has another condition or catches a flu or like happens all of the time in the measles world a perfectly healthy patient simply doesn’t fight the disease well. If vaccines cause or exacerbate autism, we want to know and address that, but not without real evidence (and lots of it) because people WILL die. We can’t allow decisions to not vaccinate based on the fact that people are poorly informed, afraid and don’t want to listen to people who actually understand these complex issues. Let researchers, doctors and healthcare decision makers do their jobs.

  567. October 23, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    @sarah – couldn’t have said it better myself, great post!

  568. sarah
    October 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Further, Mr. Warden, I’m sure you are a very intelligent person who is simply afraid and therefore not thinking critically about this. But firstly, now only were the things you stated not really true and don’t demonstrate an understanding of how correlations work (for example, almost all children are vaccinated over more than a year period. During that period millions of children will get diseases. The overlapping of periods does not indicate real association) you said “When the medical profession answers why, maybe I’ll start believing doctors, the CDC and big pharma.” That is the way a child approaches the world not being perfect. Guess what , we don’t know. No one can help you with the fact that the world operates on imperfect understandings of the universe. Scientists aren’t gods. You can’t decide that science is irrelevant just because we don’t know everything all of the time. You can follow the conversation of people who are learning and then use the best recommendations we have available to us (and guess what, sometimes they will be wrong) or you can listen to people who understand far, far less.

    This type of “if you can’t protect me from everything all of the time then you must be trying to hurt me” attitude is so common among anti-vaccers. Because they speak out of fear and then feed each others fear. The world isn’t perfect, no one can help you with that. But please let us try to move forward.

  569. Bob Burns
    October 23, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Sarah,

    “If vaccines cause or exacerbate autism, we want to know and address that, but not without real evidence (and lots of it) because people WILL die. We can’t allow decisions to not vaccinate based on the fact that people are poorly informed, afraid and don’t want to listen to people who actually understand these complex issues. Let researchers, doctors and healthcare decision makers do their jobs.”

    First of all, no, you don’t want to know it. The chain of events that would be caused by this truth would be devastating to the players and government alike.

    Second of all, there is plenty of proof out there, but you choose to ignore it.

    3rd of all, if left up to the doctors and healthcare workers, nothing would get done. Obviously the parents of injured children need to be involved for anything to move forward.

  570. October 23, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    @Bob – and your “proof” was, what exactly?

  571. Chris
    October 23, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    Mr. Burns: “Second of all, there is plenty of proof out there, but you choose to ignore it.”

    And yet you have not produced any evidence that the MMR vaccine is associated with autism. Which is interesting since it has been used in the USA since 1971, which is almost two decades longer than the UK.

    If the MMR was associated with autism, it would have been noticed in a country much larger than the UK, and for over twenty years before Wakefield came on to the scene. So do provide the verifiable evidence dated before 1990 that there was a huge increase in autism in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s, especially right after 1978 when the Measles Elimination Program started with the MMR as the preferred vaccine.

    If we had the verifiable evidence from before 1990, then there would be evidence that Wakefield had data to support his hypothesis, and not a bag of UK taxpayer cash (legal aid funds) waved in from of him by the lawyer Richard Barr.

  572. novalox
    October 23, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    @bob

    Again, why should anyone believe you when you have not posted one iota of actual scientific evidence to back up your point of view?

    All that you have done is post fact-free pseudoscience and insinuation, and have repeatedly insulted posters who have asked for evidence.

  573. Kathy
    October 29, 2013 at 4:49 pm

    There is a simple and terrible truth here – and it’s NOT Scientific. Bare with me..

    If a loved one who appears outwardly happy and content, suddenly commits suicide with no reason, no note, no cause, their loved ones “need” to blame their actions on something, someone. I use suicide due to the overwhelming tragic nature of it – thus comparatively, any horrific outcome results in pure human nature to find a cause and latch onto it quickly for a piece of mind. Humans have a “need to know” and we have a need to be at piece with tragedy. This can work for and against us.

    Every parent of an autistic child (particularly those who “watched” their child “change” after receiving the MMR Vaccine) wants to be able to blame all the losses and struggles their perfect child will go through in life on what most directly “appeared” to be the cause.

    The Autism/Vaccination debate will never die so long as the PERCEPTION that the vaccine “does” something to a child’s demeanor shortly after it’s administered continues to happen. Unfortunately, the cold truth for these parents is the studies done since the Wakefield debacle DO support there being NO LINK. Yet it can not be accepted simply because there are no conclusive studies as to what else causes Autism (and the “change”). Once something else comes out that better supports how Autism develops and possibly what triggers it’s inevitable progression to diagnosis, the MMR Vaccine is all they have to hang onto.

    I have an autistic child – one who “changed” before our eyes. One who was diagnosed shortly after the MMR Vax. But rather than jump on the “it must’ve been the vaccine” bandwagon – I have found all kinds of research and I have seen the tests that show my child’s brain didn’t “change” after the MMR, but that he developed that way. I have found articles, books, web sites, all that pose a hundred different reasons for Autism to develop in a child. Not only that, but new theories coming to light.

    I think we all need to agree, the MMR does not CAUSE autism or ASD. However, there could be other triggers related to the MMR Vaccine that allow the EXISTING deficits in the brain to become more pronounced.

    Many children become lethargic and show flu-like symptoms post MMR. Many recover as normal. Many do not. It took me years of soul searching to see that my child WAS different before the vaccine. Little tiny glimpses that something was amiss, but the reaction to the MMR and the subsequent neurological decline seen after and since sure do make it easy for me to want to say it must be the MMR. I don’t!!

    Another very interesting study (not Theory, not scientific fact.. just a study) is looking at the use of Acetaminophen use just prior to the MMR and then after to treat the flu-like symptoms many children experience. Acetaminophen was NOT generally used prior to 1980 – not until after the Aspirin-Rye’s syndrome scare. Around that time, it also began being used as a common pain killer post circumcision (link to it’s prevalence more in boys than girls?). Countries that consider Acetaminopnen a Rx only drug (and have) have some of the lowest Autism/ASD diagnosis in the world.

    Again, it’s a study it’s “interesting” it gives me hope that someday anything and everything that could harm our children is isolated and removed from their world. It’s not fact and it’s not been proven.

    So for now, I have decided, I can’t ride the bandwagon, I can’t jump on every study or possibility of WHY. It just IS and for now, my child and the children around him are safer with him having “Autism and being vaccinated”, than him being “healthy and un-vaccinated”.

  574. Kathy
    October 29, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    One other tidbit.. from my years of research, believe me I wanted to so badly to believe in Wakefield and his study, I think when it first came out, I did. But similar to my own soul searching about how my child was before and after the MMR, many of the parents of Child 1 through 9 DID admit that the onset of neurological deficits was not 1 – 7 days post MMR as reported in his study, but in some cases months after receiving the MMR. In addition, many of those parents directly admitted their children (like mine) showed some anomalous behavior (extreme trouble sleeping, picky eating, mildly slow development (roll over, sit up)) well before receiving the Vaccine.

    All reported this information to him, all of which was omitted from his findings. While there are tons of reasons why the research was partially retracted in 2004 and later fully retracted (2010, I believe).. it wasn’t most specifically due to him being paid and other unethical behavior (that is why he lost his license). The entire study was thrown out due to facts as the parents provided being omitted to skew the results to make the MMR APPEAR as a LINK. That alone means that regardless of how much money he accepted, no matter with whom or how he collaborated, the study is no more valid than myself taking my own son’s medical history, changing the dates on MRI’s and blood work results and posting it as “evidence”. It’s nothing more than an out an out lie.

    Wakefield has done so much more HARM THAN GOOD. We DO need to be doing more research, we need to be exploring some groundbreaking in utero diagnosis techniques, we need to be isolating other factors in our environment that are contributing to the BRAIN DAMAGE that ASD comprises of. It’s not going to be an easy task. We’ve been fighting Cancer for how long now? Not very far are we? I don’t expect to have any idea why my child is how he is in my lifetime. Think about it, EVERYTHING has changed since 1980… the amount of processed food we consume, the increase in additives in formula, the increase in ambient EMF due to the use of countless electrical/technological gadgets in our lives, I could go on and on and say any one of these “contributed” or “caused” my son’s Autism before he was born and exasperated it during the most critically developmental time of his life, the first 2 years.. It’s impossible to know and NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN.

    Lastly, you can not look with an unbiased eye at the increase in Austim/ASD in children over the past 30+ years without understanding that Autism was a unique disorder all it’s own and it was SEVERELY debilitating. Children diagnosed with Autism would’ve hardly been able to live on their own. When the Psychological world CHANGED the diagnostic definition of Autism and moved it to a “Spectrum” disorder, it now pretty much covers just about every mental/physical deficit that doesn’t “fit” elsewhere into ASD. This is what the original definition was based upon: http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/classic-paper-reviews/2007/leo-kanners-1943-paper-on-autism-commentary-by-gerald-fischbach. I promise you a child with PDD and Turrets isn’t anything like this, but those are both NOW part of the ASD. So of course it’s going to increase and increase by factors of every single Mental condition lumped underneath it.

    I love my child, I would give anything to give him a “normal” life, but blaming Vaccines and the world around him isn’t helping him and it’s not helping other children (with or without ASD).

    I write here to show the anti-vax people that it is possible to think with your head and not your heart, even when it comes to your own child being impacted. We will never make headway against Autism (treatment, better-earlier diagnosis, etc) if we can’t move forward and look to new ideas and welcome new research.

  575. October 29, 2013 at 7:27 pm

    @Kathy – while I don’t necessarily agree with everyone you say, the bulk of your thoughts are based around sound science & should be applauded.

    The research is being done & yes, Autism is a very wide spectrum nowadays – so harping on it as a single disorder (as most of the anti-vax folks do) is doing a disservice to those that require assistance.

    At the end of the day, those with classic autism do tend to improve over time – because it is a disorder of developmental delay, not developmental stasis & there are many individuals today who live productive and independent lives, who, in their earlier years, would not have been able to do so.

  576. Kathy
    October 30, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    @Lawrence – Thank you for your kind response.. and yes, I agree.. and I hope for my own child, his multiple disorders – he’s got about everything in the spectrum, along with classic Autism – that his long-term potential will continue to grow and one day he will be able to lead a productive life on his own.

  577. October 30, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @Kathy – my best to you and your family (especially your son).

  578. sarah
    October 31, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Wow, Kathy. We really need more people like you. You are 100% right, for the good of children already living with and who may develop autism, we desperately need to follow the real evidence. If vaccines turn out to be a problem, we need to know that, in a non-politicized objective environment. Right now, this does not appear to be true, however, so we need to be able to continue with research in the right directions. And I agree that we are currently exposed to so much crap that could do us harm and it has been a huge struggle to understand the combined effect of all of it.

    I also 100% agree with you that a lot of the problem is how people react to difficult things happening. It is hard to believe in a random world where things can just happen. We want an illusion of control, even when it is just an illusion. This is why people will often listen to a pseudo-expert over a true expert. Many times the pseudo-experts make definitive statements and outlandish promises. This is comforting when you have a condition and are afraid and your doctor keeps saying “possibly” and “chance” and “…% risk”. We generally prefer a beautiful lie to a difficult truth, which generally is: there are no real promises when it comes to health and we don’t always have control. Any adult who is raped can tell you that the first thing they often hear from people is, “couldn’t you have just…” or “why did/didn’t you…” The person isn’t trying to be cruel. They are just trying to turn the world back into a place where negative things can be avoided or controlled.

    People also link disease with fault and punishment. Even genetic disorders will make a parent feel horrible guilt. A respondent to this thread reacted with real anger when genetics were mentioned. It makes people feel as though they did this to their child. Historically to make disease seem less random, people used to say that conditions were punishment from god, or a curse. These are all normal emotional processes, but they aren’t helpful to understanding disease. The emotions of parents are wonderful in that they become advocates, and they should be, for more funding, for better healthcare access for everyone, for better educational programs that address learning and behavioral differences. But researchers, doctors and decision makers need to be objective.

  579. sarah
    October 31, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    Also, while I’m sure your boy is already plenty awesome, I hope that his development continues to go well.

    My cousin has a low-cognitive disorder that includes, very frustrating for her, difficulty with speech patterns. They have never identified either her condition or the cause, but her parents went through intense periods of guilt, pain and grief while trying to understand what went wrong. Now what I can say about this pretty spectacular teenager is, thank god she’s with us in whatever form. Every time I’m around her she teaches me a little bit more about how to love someone. We’re pretty lucky to have her in our lives, but it isn’t always easy for her parents. While discussing causes, we also need to discuss systems and treatment of people with disabilities as well as how to provide support for caregivers.

  580. tanya
    January 27, 2014 at 10:43 pm

    Mr Paul Offit … The so called doctor now wanted on 13 counts of serious fraud! See following page for numerous links.

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/11/wanted-by-the-feds-poul-thorsen-who-helped-pull-off-cdc-vaccine-autism-heist.html

  581. Chris
    January 27, 2014 at 10:54 pm

    Tanya, Dr. Offit is not Dr. Thorsen. Look how they have different names and live in different countries.

    Now please tell us how one man’s actions invalidate these:
    Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

    Explain exactly how Poul Thorsen it associated with each and every one of those studies, with verifiable evidence. Not a random website.

  582. Lawrence
    January 28, 2014 at 9:53 am

    @tanya – not only is Dr. Offit not Dr. Thorsen, but Dr. Thorsen has not actually been convicted of any crimes at this point.

    And to Chris'; point – there is plenty of evidence out there that isn’t linked to any Pharma company or even government agencies, which show that vaccines are safe and effective.

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