Home > Expert Insights, Preventable Diseases, Testimonials, Vaccine Myths > The Chickenpox Vaccine and Shedding Concerns

The Chickenpox Vaccine and Shedding Concerns

November 20, 2012

Recently we received this question on our Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page:

“My daughter and one of our friend’s daughters are the same age – 15months. I vaccinate, she doesn’t. She is trying to say that if my daughter gets the chickenpox vaccine, then it’s possible that she could give her child the chickenpox from shedding. My daughter hasn’t had the vaccine yet, but if she did, is that possible?” 

 The following response has been provided by Dr. Lara Zibners:

Firstly, well done on choosing to protect not only your child but the more vulnerable fellow humans she may come in contact with. Before we started routinely giving kids the chickenpox (varicella virus) shot, there were about 4 million cases annually resulting in about 100 preventable deaths every year. Think about that. Four million cases and only 100 deaths sounds pretty low risk, doesn’t it? Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 10,000 hospitalizations every year. You know, for little things like serious skin infections, including the dreaded flesh-eating bacteria, bone infections, blood infections, pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis, transverse myelitis, thrombocytopenia and stroke. Stuff like that. (I purposely threw a bunch of big words in there because they sound scary. And, to be honest, they are.)

Image of an unvaccinated child with varicella lesions in various stages. (Photo courtesy of the AAP)

So congratulations on making an informed and intelligent choice. I could go on and on about the risk to babies too young to be vaccinated, the truly devastating complications of varicella infection during pregnancy, and how time-tested and proven this vaccine is (clue: I’m pretty sure I was still wearing a diaper, at least at night, when it was first being tested. And in case you are wondering, I’m at an age where diapers are once again looming in my rapidly-nearing future). But, I won’t. Because that’s not your question. You already know that choosing to vaccinate your child against chickenpox means a 99% reduction in the risk of infection. Your question is whether a child who gets the chickenpox shot can infect another child. And that is a perfectly valid question to ask, I think.

So let’s back up for a second. Is this a vaccine that can cause an active infection? In other words, is it alive or killed? What I mean by that is some vaccines are absolutely 100% incapable of causing illness. These vaccines might contain a whole but very, very dead bug. Or it might contain just a small part of the bacteria or virus which conveniently happens to be the part that stimulates your immune system to develop antibodies against the actual infection, should it ever wander up your nose and into your body. The flu shot is an example of this kind of vaccine.

Then there are vaccines we call live-attentuated, meaning the actual virus is still alive, but it’s been altered so that it is very unlikely to cause an infection but will still trick the immune system into building up antibodies against it. The flu nasal spray is an example of this kind of vaccine. And so is the chickenpox shot. And because these vaccines carry a teeny tiny risk of infection, it is possible for your daughter to come down with chickenpox shortly after she has the shot. About 1% of kids do. The great news, however, is that these children develop very mild illnesses that usually lasts just a few days, is far less itchy and miserable, and is extremely unlikely to lead to any type of complication found in “wild-type” chickenpox infections. (“Wild-type” sounds really exotic, but it’s not. Just means you got it from the germy kid next door.)

Image of a breakthrough case of varicella on the back of a vaccinated child. (Photo courtesy of the CDC)

Now, let’s say your daughter was the unlucky 1% who got a very, very mild case of chickenpox after her shot. You might not even notice it because it could just be a few red dots on her chest that disappear in a couple of days. But let’s say she did. Now what is the risk to your friend’s unimmunized child? I am happy to tell you that the medical literature reports 5 such cases occurring over the course of 55 million doses of chickenpox vaccine injections. 5 in 55 million. And all of them were mild and without complications.

So, to summarize, let’s take out the old risk-balance sheet and see what we’ve got.

Unimmunized kid + wild-type infection: very real chance of serious illness and even death.

Immunized kid + wild-type infection: 95% protection against serious illness.

Immunized kid + a vaccine-related infection: rare with no serious complications.

Unimmunized kid exposed to your daughter after her shot: a miniscule chance of an extremely mild illness. And it makes perfect sense to me medically that if her daughter actually developed chickenpox, her immune system would kick into action, developing antibodies specific to the varicella virus. Which means at least some degree of protection against natural infection and severe disease.

Heck, with all that in mind, I say your friend should cross her fingers, buy some lottery tickets and hope it’s her lucky day! She should say thank you.

********************************************************************************************************************************************

Dr. Lara Zibners graduated cum laude from the Ohio State University School of Medicine. She completed both a residency in pediatrics and a fellowship in pediatric emergency medicine at Nationwide Children’s Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, and is currently board certified in both general pediatrics and pediatric emergency medicine. As the author of the award-winning “If Your Kid Eats This Book, Everything Will Still Be Okay,” and the hilarious blog we love at www.drzibners.com, she has been an avid and very public supporter of vaccination. When not speaking, writing or doctoring, Dr. Zibners does her best to mother two toddlers and a middle-aged husband, all of whom are fully vaccinated.

For more information, visit the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention websites.

You can also hear the personal stories of two children who suffered with chickenpox – one who died and one who survived, but suffered severe complications.  Just visit the Shot By Shot story gallery and view Adam and Nathan’s stories. 

  1. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Welcome aboard Dr. Zibners.

    “…Think about that. Four million cases and only 100 deaths sounds pretty low risk, doesn’t it? Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 10,000 hospitalizations every year. You know, for little things like serious skin infections, including the dreaded flesh-eating bacteria, bone infections, blood infections, pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis, transverse myelitis, thrombocytopenia and stroke. Stuff like that. (I purposely threw a bunch of big words in there because they sound scary. And, to be honest, they are.)…”

    To add to your excellent post, some additional photographs of bullous varicella, hemorrhagic varicella and varicella in newborns (click to enlarge):

    http://www.immunize.org/photos/chickenpox-photos2.asp

  2. Steve Walters
    November 20, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Well written, humorous and scary. And misleading. The author fails to mention CP was already declining BEFORE the vaccine. He also fails to mention the dcline rate did not change after the introduction of the vaccine.

    There is not scientific evidence suggesting getting the cp vaccine will decrease the severity of the disease if caught by the vaccinated person.

    By the authors own words, this vaccine can shed. So by this flawed logic, an unvaccinated person can get CP full out. If the vaccine diminishes symptoms, the unvaccinated person that just caught CP from your vaccinated kid can get a full blown case of CP.

    CP vaccine introduces the virus into our body which opens the door to shingles as well.

  3. November 20, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Hi everyone. I’m delighted to be here. Just to clarify on Steve’s points, there is ample evidence that the vaccine has resulted in a decline in disease (>80%), fatalities and hospitalizations (90%), and severity of illness in vaccinated children. The links provided can shed more light on these topics. As for shingles, the early research seems to suggest a decrease in the risk of shingles for vaccinated individuals, although more studies need to be done. The above stats come from the CDC (http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_var.asp).
    Thanks for the comments and the dialogue.

  4. Amanda
    November 20, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Thanks, Steve, excellent points! That’s what I thought when I read it, that children can catch chickenpox from either a recently vaccinated person or from someone with natural chickenpox, so neither group is “protecting” unvaccinated people. I and my children have had chickenpox, and it was no big deal. The photo you showed of the lesions on the back of a child with chickenpox was perplexing: what was the point? The lesions are not permanent, if the photo had been taken a month later, all of the lesions would have gone away. My son had a small scar on his face from a large chickenpox lesion, but even it eventually went away. Do you want to see a photo of my legs after I got hundreds of chigger bites, or my arms after a severe case of poison ivy? Who cares? They all healed many years ago.

    The Journal of the AMA, September 13, 2000, published a study with a CDC and FDA analysis of over 6,500 adverse reactions to the chickenpox vaccine over three and a half years: 6.3 % of children under four had serious reactions, and 9.2% of children under two. All the possible adverse events from the disease are also possible as reactions to the shot, including death. They wanted to give Varivax to my children when they were 18 months old, and I’m glad I refused it. Who wants to risk a one in ten chance of a serious reaction? The natural disease is very rarely dangerous, certainly not in one in ten cases. Before the vaccine, there were millions of cases of chickenpox a year, with an average of 100 deaths a year from chickenpox, mostly among adults, in whom the disease can be more dangerous, or among children with preexisting conditions.

    Steve is right, people who have had either the disease or the shot can get shingles later, both introduce the virus into the body where it goes latent until reactivated as shingles. The Pediatric Infectious Disease J 1999 published a study by Kohl that studied children getting shingles after the vaccine. Nexus New Times Magazine July 2007 published a study by Goldman with a study of five serious reactions to the varicella vaccine, including shingles.

    Shingles is more common now because people aren’t getting their immunity boosted from exposure to people with the natural disease. I had an older friend who was sick for two months with shingles recently, probably for this reason.

    In March 2007, the New England Journal of Medicine published a study of the wearing-off of vaccine protection over time. It found that breakthrough chickenpox became more and more common the longer it had been since vaccination, children who had been vaccinated more than five years previously were more than twice as likely as recently vaccinated children to have serioius cases of chickenpox with things like pneumonia and skin infections from their breakthrough chickenpox, and the lack of permanent protection offered by the vaccine pushes the disease into older age groups, where it can be more dangerous than it usually is in children.

    Women are advised not to become pregnant for three months after getting the vaccine, and to avoid contact with recently vaccinated children, to reduce the chance of birth defects caused by this contact.

  5. Amy
    November 20, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Thanks, Steve, excellent points! That’s what I thought when I read it, that children can catch chickenpox from either a recently vaccinated person or from someone with natural chickenpox, so neither group is “protecting” unvaccinated people. I and my children have had chickenpox, and it was no big deal. The photo you showed of the lesions on the back of a child with chickenpox was perplexing: what was the point? The lesions are not permanent, if the photo had been taken a month later, all of the lesions would have gone away. My son had a small scar on his face from a large chickenpox lesion, but even it eventually went away. Do you want to see a photo of my legs after I got hundreds of chigger bites, or my arms after a severe case of poison ivy? Who cares? They all healed many years ago.

    The Journal of the AMA, September 13, 2000, published a study with a CDC and FDA analysis of over 6,500 adverse reactions to the chickenpox vaccine over three and a half years: 6.3 % of children under four had serious reactions, and 9.2% of children under two. All the possible adverse events from the disease are also possible as reactions to the shot, including death. They wanted to give Varivax to my children when they were 18 months old, and I’m glad I refused it. Who wants to risk a one in ten chance of a serious reaction? The natural disease is very rarely dangerous, certainly not in one in ten cases. Before the vaccine, there were millions of cases of chickenpox a year, with an average of 100 deaths a year from chickenpox, mostly among adults, in whom the disease can be more dangerous, or among children with preexisting conditions.

    Steve is right, people who have had either the disease or the shot can get shingles later, both introduce the virus into the body where it goes latent until reactivated as shingles. The Pediatric Infectious Disease J 1999 published a study by Kohl that studied children getting shingles after the vaccine. Nexus New Times Magazine July 2007 published a study by Goldman with a study of five serious reactions to the varicella vaccine, including shingles.

    Shingles is more common now because people aren’t getting their immunity boosted from exposure to people with the natural disease. I had an older friend who was sick for two months with shingles recently, probably for this reason.

    In March 2007, the New England Journal of Medicine published a study of the wearing-off of vaccine protection over time. It found that breakthrough chickenpox became more and more common the longer it had been since vaccination, children who had been vaccinated more than five years previously were more than twice as likely as recently vaccinated children to have serioius cases of chickenpox with things like pneumonia and skin infections from their breakthrough chickenpox, and the lack of permanent protection offered by the vaccine pushes the disease into older age groups, where it can be more dangerous than it usually is in children.

    Women are advised not to become pregnant for three months after getting the vaccine, and to avoid contact with recently vaccinated children, to reduce the chance of birth defects caused by this contact.

  6. November 20, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    I wish the varicella vaccine had been available for my older four children before they had gotten chicken pox. They suffered greatly with the pox, and my third child got an ear infection from a pox in his ear that became infected. Thankfully, it was a mild infection, but it still required antibiotics to clear it up. My younger two are vaccinated against it. I am relieved that I don’t ever have to see them suffer the way my other four did. Thank you for contributing, Dr. Zibners! By the way, love your first name :D!

  7. Lara Lohne
    November 20, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Amy and Amanda appear to be the same person. What is the likelihood that two different people would post the exact same post word for word and also have the exact same thing happen with their son when infected with a disease?

  8. Chris
    November 20, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Mr. Walter:

    And misleading. The author fails to mention CP was already declining BEFORE the vaccine. He also fails to mention the dcline rate did not change after the introduction of the vaccine.

    Citation needed. My three kids all got chicken pox the year before the vaccine came out, and it hit both the preschool and school the boys attended very hard. There was no indication of chicken pox declining in 1994 as far as I could tell.

    And I wonder how well you read the article since “Lara” is more commonly a female name. It would have helped if you read the article that introduced her yesterday.

    Amanda/Amy, sock puppets work better when they don’t post identical comments.

    By the way, the chances of shingles is lower with vaccination. Your children have a greater chance of getting shingles because they now harbor the actual virus in their bodies. And, having had to deal with three kids with dozens of itchy open wounds (pox), which included a six month old baby, I think only a cruel and sadistic person would want a child to suffer like that. It wasn’t a fun month for me, since I had to deal with a very sick baby and a kindergartener who was so sick he wet his bed at night.

  9. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Well welcome to “our world” of Trolls and their sockies, Dr. Zibners.

    Amanda and Amy both posted this same comment…

    “The Journal of the AMA, September 13, 2000, published a study with a CDC and FDA analysis of over 6,500 adverse reactions to the chickenpox vaccine over three and a half years: 6.3 % of children under four had serious reactions, and 9.2% of children under two. All the possible adverse events from the disease are also possible as reactions to the shot, including death. They wanted to give Varivax to my children when they were 18 months old, and I’m glad I refused it. Who wants to risk a one in ten chance of a serious reaction? The natural disease is very rarely dangerous, certainly not in one in ten cases. Before the vaccine, there were millions of cases of chickenpox a year, with an average of 100 deaths a year from chickenpox, mostly among adults, in whom the disease can be more dangerous, or among children with preexisting conditions.”

    Here’s the JAMA article that Sockie Amanda and Sockie Amy both reference, where they “conveniently” omitted that the study of “adverse reactions” was conducted using VAERS reported “adverse reactions”. Why didn’t the sockies link to the article and its conclusions?

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=193060

    ABSTRACT

    ABSTRACT | METHODS | RESULTS | COMMENT | CONCLUSION | REFERENCES

    Context Since its licensure in 1995, the extensive use of varicella vaccine and close surveillance of the associated anecdotal reports of suspected adverse effects provide the opportunity to detect potential risks not observed before licensure because of the relatively small sample size and other limitations of clinical trials.

    Objectives To detect potential hazards, including rare events, associated with varicella vaccine, and to assess case reports for clinical and epidemiological implications.

    Design and Setting Postlicensure case-series study of suspected vaccine adverse events reported to the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) from March 17, 1995, through July 25, 1998.

    Main Outcome Measures Numbers of reported adverse events, proportions, and reporting rates (reports per 100,000 doses distributed).

    Results VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths. The most frequently reported adverse events were rashes, possible vaccine failures, and injection site reactions. Misinterpretation of varicella serology after vaccination appeared to account for 17% of reports of possible vaccine failures. Among 251 patients with herpes zoster, 14 had the vaccine strain of varicella zoster virus (VZV), while 12 had the wild-type virus. None of 30 anaphylaxis cases was fatal. An immunodeficient patient with pneumonia had the vaccine strain of VZV in a lung biopsy. Pregnant women occasionally received varicella vaccine through confusion with varicella zoster immunoglobulin. Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.

    Conclusion Most of the reported adverse events associated with varicella vaccine are minor, and serious risks appear to be rare. We could not confirm a vaccine etiology for most of the reported serious events; several will require further study to clarify whether varicella vaccine plays a role. Education is needed to ensure appropriate use of varicella serologic assays and to eliminate confusion between varicella vaccine and varicella zoster immunoglobulin.”

    Amanda and Amy both made the same exact comment about “waning immunity” of the varicella vaccine, referencing this NEJM article, published, March 2007:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064040

    Abstract

    Background

    The introduction of universal varicella vaccination in 1995 has substantially reduced varicella-related morbidity and mortality in the United States. However, it remains unclear whether vaccine-induced immunity wanes over time, a condition that may result in increased susceptibility later in life, when the risk of serious complications may be greater than in childhood.

    We examined 10 years (1995 to 2004) of active surveillance data from a sentinel population of 350,000 subjects to determine whether the severity and incidence of breakthrough varicella (with an onset of rash >42 days after vaccination) increased with the time since vaccination. We used multivariate logistic regression to adjust for the year of disease onset (calendar year) and the subject’s age at both disease onset and vaccination.

    Results

    A total of 11,356 subjects were reported to have varicella during the surveillance period, of whom 1080 (9.5%) had breakthrough disease. Children between the ages of 8 and 12 years who had been vaccinated at least 5 years previously were significantly more likely to have moderate or severe disease than were those who had been vaccinated less than 5 years previously (risk ratio, 2.6; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.2 to 5.8). The annual rate of breakthrough varicella significantly increased with the time since vaccination, from 1.6 cases per 1000 person-years (95% CI, 1.2 to 2.0) within 1 year after vaccination to 9.0 per 1000 person-years (95% CI, 6.9 to 11.7) at 5 years and 58.2 per 1000 person-years (95% CI, 36.0 to 94.0) at 9 years.

    A second dose of varicella vaccine, now recommended for all children, could improve protection from both primary vaccine failure and waning vaccine-induced immunity.

    So Sockies, why didn’t you provide us with this article from The Journal of Infectious Diseases, published 2011, that evaluates the effectiveness of the two-dose series of Varicella vaccine?

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/203/3/312.full

    Abstract

    Background. Because of ongoing outbreaks of varicella, a second dose of varicella vaccine was added to the routine immunization schedule for children in June 2006 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Methods. We assessed the effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine in a case-control study by identifying children ≥4 years of age with varicella confirmed by polymerase chain reaction assay and up to 2 controls matched by age and pediatric practice. Effectiveness was calculated using exact conditional logistic regression.

    Results. From July 2006 to January 2010, of the 71 case subjects and 140 matched controls enrolled, no cases (0%) vs 22 controls (15.7%) had received 2 doses of varicella vaccine, 66 cases (93.0%) vs 117 controls (83.6%) had received 1 dose, and 5 cases (7.0%) vs 1 control (0.7%) did not receive varicella vaccine (P < .001). The effectiveness of 2 doses of the vaccine was 98.3% (95% confidence level [CI]: 83.5%–100%; P < .001). The matched odds ratio for 2 doses vs 1 dose of the vaccine was 0.053 (95% CI: 0.002–0.320; P < .001).

    Conclusion. The effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine in the first 2.5 years after recommendation of a routine second dose of the vaccine for children is excellent. Odds of developing varicella were 95% lower for children who received 2 doses compared with 1 dose of varicella vaccine.

    Results VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths. The most frequently reported adverse events were rashes, possible vaccine failures, and injection site reactions. Misinterpretation of varicella serology after vaccination appeared to account for 17% of reports of possible vaccine failures. Among 251 patients with herpes zoster, 14 had the vaccine strain of varicella zoster virus (VZV), while 12 had the wild-type virus. None of 30 anaphylaxis cases was fatal. An immunodeficient patient with pneumonia had the vaccine strain of VZV in a lung biopsy. Pregnant women occasionally received varicella vaccine through confusion with varicella zoster immunoglobulin. Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.

    Original Contribution | September 13, 2000
    Postlicensure Safety Surveillance for Varicella Vaccine FREE
    Robert P. Wise, MD, MPH; Marcel E. Salive, MD, MPH; M. Miles Braun, MD, MPH; Gina Terracciano Mootrey, DO, MPH; Jane F. Seward, MBBS, MPH; Lisa G. Rider, MD; Philip R. Krause, MD
    JAMA. 2000;284(10):1271-1279. doi:10.1001/jama.284.10.1271.
    Text Size: A A A
    Article
    Figures
    Tables
    References
    ABSTRACT
    ABSTRACT | METHODS | RESULTS | COMMENT | CONCLUSION | REFERENCES

    Context Since its licensure in 1995, the extensive use of varicella vaccine and close surveillance of the associated anecdotal reports of suspected adverse effects provide the opportunity to detect potential risks not observed before licensure because of the relatively small sample size and other limitations of clinical trials.

    Objectives To detect potential hazards, including rare events, associated with varicella vaccine, and to assess case reports for clinical and epidemiological implications.

    Design and Setting Postlicensure case-series study of suspected vaccine adverse events reported to the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) from March 17, 1995, through July 25, 1998.

    Main Outcome Measures Numbers of reported adverse events, proportions, and reporting rates (reports per 100,000 doses distributed).

    Results VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths. The most frequently reported adverse events were rashes, possible vaccine failures, and injection site reactions. Misinterpretation of varicella serology after vaccination appeared to account for 17% of reports of possible vaccine failures. Among 251 patients with herpes zoster, 14 had the vaccine strain of varicella zoster virus (VZV), while 12 had the wild-type virus. None of 30 anaphylaxis cases was fatal. An immunodeficient patient with pneumonia had the vaccine strain of VZV in a lung biopsy. Pregnant women occasionally received varicella vaccine through confusion with varicella zoster immunoglobulin. Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.

  10. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    The post above is confusing, because I mixed up a study about varicella vaccine safety issues using the VAERS database and the secondary waning immunity study following the implementation of the two dose series of varicella vaccine.

    Please excuse my copy-pasting skills, and please use the links I provided. Thanks.

  11. Christine Vara
    November 20, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Dr. Zibners, We received a chickenpox related question on our Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page today (in response to this post) and this parent has asked if you might be able to address it.

    She writes, “Follow up question – how likely is it that my older 2 kids (who got wild pox and weren’t vaccinated) will get shingles later? They also had pox when I was pregnant with #3 (I had it as a kid, so no concerns), so does #3 have any immunity?”

  12. November 20, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Hi Christine, I would love to address this. But given how complex these seemingly simple questions are (shifting epidemiology, waning immunity, loss of cell-mediated immunity as we, I mean all of you, get older) AND my natural verbosity, I think I would like to take my time and answer this properly, which means more space than I have here. Will you give me the room to do so in a week or two? Thanks. Lara

  13. Amy
    November 20, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to repeat, Amy is my nickname, Amanda my longer name. There was a delay in its being posted, and I thought I had made a mistake.

  14. Amy
    November 20, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    The VAERS was set up by the FDA in order for them to learn about adverse reactions, given that they can’t be at every person’s side at the time they may experience the side effects. Parents or doctors can report adverse events to them, and the reader should consider the information given in the report, and either accept it or reject it. There is unfortunately no failsafe way to identify adverse reactions, none of them come with a label connecting them to a vaccine that was received. Depending on your point of view, you can label all of them coincidence, and no one can prove you wrong. But that doesn’t mean that they were really coincidence, it just means that it requires judgment to try to decide if you think there was a causal relationship, or if it was just coincidence. Saying a claim was made in a VAERS report does not automatically cast doubt on its authenticity.

  15. dingo199
    November 20, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    Lara Lohne :
    Amy and Amanda appear to be the same person. What is the likelihood that two different people would post the exact same post word for word and also have the exact same thing happen with their son when infected with a disease?

    About the same chance as a child dying after varicella vaccination.

  16. November 20, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    @Amy – you do know that serious adverse events reported in VAERS are actually followed-up on and investigated, right? The results are not reported back in VAERS, which is why VAERS should not be used to decide whether or not one should vaccinate…..please use real research instead.

  17. dingo199
    November 20, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    Amy/Amanda/Amber/whatever

    Way to go with misdirection and confusion….
    Fact is catching the disease is many times more risky than the vaccine. I hate these antivax people who cite a rare complication of a live vaccine with mock shock/horror tones, yet downplay the same problem which commonly results from natural infection as “trivial”.

    As CP incidence wanes (because of vaccination) there may be a rise in elderly cases of shingles, because of fewer chances of “natural boosting” from exposure to their poor grandkids suffering disease. The simple answer? Vaccinate the elderly to give an artifical boost. Simples.

  18. dingo199
    November 20, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Steve Walters :
    Well written, humorous and scary. And misleading. The author fails to mention CP was already declining BEFORE the vaccine. He also fails to mention the dcline rate did not change after the introduction of the vaccine.
    There is not scientific evidence suggesting getting the cp vaccine will decrease the severity of the disease if caught by the vaccinated person.
    By the authors own words, this vaccine can shed. So by this flawed logic, an unvaccinated person can get CP full out. If the vaccine diminishes symptoms, the unvaccinated person that just caught CP from your vaccinated kid can get a full blown case of CP.
    CP vaccine introduces the virus into our body which opens the door to shingles as well.

    The author (a female, please note) did not mention the things you claim, because they are not true.

  19. Renay
    November 20, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Funny to still hear that chickenpox is no “BIGGY”??? After losing my son due to complications of it 11yrs ago…Too bad in a way people didn’t get to see my boy suffer like my family & i did…And he was NOT vaccinated in time, because i was not made aware that the varicella vaccine was available…Love to see some critics walk in my shoes.

  20. Renay
    November 20, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Renay :
    Funny to still hear that chickenpox is no “BIGGY”??? After losing my son due to complications of it 11yrs ago…Too bad in a way people didn’t get to see my boy suffer like my family & i did…And he was NOT vaccinated in time, because i was not made aware that the varicella vaccine was available…Love to see some critics walk in my shoes.

  21. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Good lord, more exaggerations, drama, and fear mongering being used to describe getting the Chicken Pox. “Suffer,” “Suffered greatly,” “Ear infection,” every kid I knew growing up got the Chicken Pox….and none of us “suffered” as your kids all did. Fact is, vaccines are not safe for everybody….it is not a one size fits all. I don’t care how small you say the chance is of a serious injury or death, fact is when it happens to a family member, it’s a whole other story. When it comes to the Chicken Pox vaccine, I’d take my chances or even hope to get it before ever getting the vaccination. And let’s make sure the elderly get it now too, along with other vaccines being pushed on them….let’s send them all to an early grave, shall we.

  22. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Strictly anecdotal, but…when I was employed as a public health nurse and the varicella vaccine became available, the physicians and nurses who had contact with patients, were tested for the presence of IGG immunity, prior to initiating immunization against the virus:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-vacc.htm

    IIRC, all the nurses and doctors did have positive IGG serology test results, from earlier “natural cases” of chicken pox.

    In the absence of information about mom’s # 3′s age, I would assume that the baby received some passive maternal immunity passed in utero and a slightly extended period of passive maternal immunity in mom’s breast milk colostrum, which wanes, way before #3 child is eligible to receive the first of the 2-shot series of varicella vaccine. Mom could have # 3 child tested for the presence of IGG varicella antibodies. If she does not opt for serological testing, the # 3 child should receive the 2-doses series of varicella antigen-containing vaccine.

  23. Thomas
    November 20, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Renay: I’m so sorry to hear of your loss.

  24. Thomas
    November 20, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    And just on cue, canis shows up to demonstrate that antivaxxers only care about deaths they can blame on vaccines.

  25. November 20, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    @Thomas – yes, because obviously no one died of vaccine-preventable diseases back in the day….I mean, the only reason vaccines were originally invented was to line the pockets of multinational corporations & had nothing to do with public health, right?

    Oh wait……yeah, there was that whole thing about high infant mortality (about 50/50 chance of a child living pas the age of 5), then when mortality dropped, the increase of side-effects like deafness, blindness, sterility, encephilitis, congenital birth defects from rubella, etc, etc,etc…

    Anti-vaccine individuals think diseases are “no big deal” because they don’t have a clue about the history of these diseases.

  26. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Not true Thomas…we posted at the same time….of course I care about her child and her loss.

  27. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    As I stated up thread “Well welcome to “our world” of Trolls and their sockies, Dr. Zibners.”

    @ canis artarcticus: One of my *favorite* anti-vaccine gambits “I survived disease X and so did the people I know, without any problems”

    Listen up Troll. All the posters here did survive vaccine-preventable diseases, unscathed. Some of us have have family members and childhood friends who were not as fortunate. My childhood friend died from polio and my older cousin was left with permanent neurological sequelae due to measles encephalitis, before vaccines against these serious, often deadly, diseases were developed and available.

    Listen up Troll: Some of the posters here are experts in immunology, virology, bacteriology and medical epidemiology. I’m a recently retired public health nurse clinician/epidemiologist who investigated individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I think my credentials and the credentials of another poster here (Infectious Diseases Medical Doctor), trump your uninformed, uneducated opinions and anti-vaccine stance.

  28. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    I frankly don’t care about the history of the diseases, what I care about are safe vaccines…which are not available. My family member was injured by a vaccine and does suffer, so therefore, that is what I care about. You think you would feel different if you were in my shoes?

  29. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Listen up lil….your stories are no more important than my experience. So back off.

  30. November 20, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    @Canis – I would prefer not to get Shingles either – because I’ve seen close associates that have gotten such bad cases (including on the surface of their eyes) that they would rather be dead then go through the agony of it…..

    There is proof & evidence (and hundreds of years of history) that show that vaccine-preventable diseases are not benign, not “no big deal” and certainly not something children should have to suffer through if there is an alternative….

    What hasn’t been proven & there is no evidence to show, that serious side-effects or reactions to vaccines occur regularly or are common – in fact, study after study has shown that serious side-effects to vaccines happen in as few in 1 in 1 million or 1 in 10 million cases….you have a better chance of getting struck my lightning or eaten by a shark then you do of having a serious reaction to a vaccine.

    Seriously, this gets old so fast……

  31. November 20, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @Canis – which vaccine, where is the VAERS entry? Did you file a claim with the Vaccine Court?

    Vaccines are among the safest medical products on the market – their safety record has been proven over the decades – and continual surveillance done by the FDA, CDC and the manufacturers still show vaccines are safe, effective, and continue to improve as newer vaccines are brought to market.

    Lucky for us, gone are the days when hospitals had whole wings dedicated to Iron Lungs & special institutions were necessary to deal with those deaf and blind children (not to mention the tens of thousands of children that died or were permanently disabled due to congenital birth defects from Rubella).

    The anti-vaccine individuals have no idea how good they have it – and their children as well, because all of that is a thing of the past….but it is something that they are trying to bring back….and they call others “monsters.”

  32. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Seriously….this may be true in your world Law, but I hear about vaccine injuries all of the time…..what gets old is saying how “rare” they are are, when that is simply not the case.

    I understand your point, but you deny how common vaccine injuries really are.

  33. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    Listen up Troll: Your made-up “stories” about purported vaccine injuries within your family do not have any weight with us.

  34. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    You have no empathy for those that are injured by vaccines….that’s the problem. It’s OK for the greater good – huh? Wait until it happens to your kids or grandkids….then keep preaching how safe vaccines are.

  35. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Listen up lil….if you don’t have anything nice to say, then I suggest you not say anything at all. I am sure you are impressing Lara Zibners with your true character.

  36. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    My dear Renay…I’m so sorry to hear of the loss of your child from chicken pox. Please continue to post here because we value your posts. Trust me, I know what it is to have a beloved son die ahead of you. There are no words to express my empathy for the loss of your child.

  37. November 20, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    @Canis – straw man. None of us will deny that vaccine reactions, some very serious, do occur. What has never been proven (despite numerous studies), is that those reactions happen with the frequency that the anti-vaccine crowd claims.

    So, since you said you are in favor of “safe” vaccines – please define exactly what you would consider to be safe?

    And please avoid the “Nirvana Fallacy” while you are at it.

  38. anonymous
    November 20, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    There are fewer cases of chicken pox with the creation of the Varicella vaccine, however there has been an explosion of herpes zoster (shingles) in the adult population who have had a case of chicken pox. Is there an increase in shingles because the exposure to the “chicken pox wild virus” has been reduced due to the vaccine? My 4 children and myself all had chicken pox. My youngest child is 22 and I hope she doesn’t have to suffer from the often incapacitating pain of shingles. The VZV is offered only for people over 60 and is very expensive. Personally, in the case of chicken pox I would rather see nature take it’s course with this disease process because post herpetic neuralgia is a very painful experience often lasting weeks, months and even years. Just my opinion. P.S. My heart goes out to any and everyone who have had to deal with the death of a child.

  39. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Straw Man? You think I misrepresented your position?

    You didn’t say this?
    “What hasn’t been proven & there is no evidence to show, that serious side-effects or reactions to vaccines occur regularly or are common – in fact, study after study has shown that serious side-effects to vaccines happen in as few in 1 in 1 million or 1 in 10 million cases….you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning or eaten by a shark then you do of having a serious reaction to a vaccine.”

    I would prefer that they work on finding safer alternatives or making current vaccines safer, rather than denying that vaccines injure more than they do and touting how safe they are.

    Why is it that vaccine manufactures can’t be sued?

  40. Chris
    November 20, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    anonymous:

    There are fewer cases of chicken pox with the creation of the Varicella vaccine, however there has been an explosion of herpes zoster (shingles) in the adult population who have had a case of chicken pox.

    Citation needed. Please none written by Gary Goldman. Also be aware that the Baby Boomers are now old enough to get shingles.

    The VZV is offered only for people over 60 and is very expensive.

    Now that age is 50. I received it at my doctor’s office and it was covered by insurance.

  41. November 20, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    @Canis – so, again, please define “safe.”

    And, would you prefer that parents be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to sue manufacturers in Civil Court, where the burden of proof is higher & the process adversarial, and with a long appeals process? Or should you prefer a process where there is no adversarial process & the burden of proof is much lower?

  42. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    What is the statistical probability, that a new poster here using the latin specie’s name for “dingo” (Canis antarcticus), comes posting on this blog within 23 minutes of dingo 199′s posts?

    IMHO, we are dealing with the same Troll who claimed that “Lohne” was a family name.

  43. anonymous
    November 20, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Chris:
    One only needs to type in shingles in the browser and look at many studies to see exact numbers. I was only speaking generally. One page says 5.2 cases per 1000 people in 2007. “The incidence of herpes zoster (shingles) in veterans seeking care at VA hospitals continues its steady increase, rising even since a 2010 report documented a near doubling of the rate using VHA Decision Support System data from 2000 to 2007.”
    http://www.usmedicine.com/compendium/although-herpes-zoster-rates-have-nearly-doubled-in-va-vaccination-levels-remain-extremely-low.html

    Glad to hear you got yours, what about the 28 years my daughter has to wait? With number of cases like 5.2 per 1000 people, I am not happy with those odds.
    Do you have an answer to my previous question?

  44. Canis antarcticus
    November 20, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    I am a new poster and yes I did take the nym based on Dingo’s name….so what. It doesn’t really matter now does it.

    Oh…so the vaccine makers can’t be sued, so the parents won’t waste their money….how thoughtful.

  45. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    “I am a new poster and yes I did take the nym based on Dingo’s name….so what. It doesn’t really matter now does it.”

    Yes, it matters, Troll. As I stated before..Welcome to our world of Trolls and sockies…..”

  46. Chris
    November 20, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    anonymous, and would those veterans be older? It may be because they are of the age. Which is exactly what that link says:

    Incidence rates among VA patients, who are typically older, provide an indication of likely trends in the general population as herpes zoster occurs at a higher rate among adults over the age of 60, a rapidly expanding group in the United States.

    I was born during the peak of the Baby Boom, and I am all too familiar with how the vast numbers of us strained housing and school districts. I graduated from a high school with almost three thousand students, but it had been built for half that many. Crowded classrooms were our norm. So it is not a surprise that a condition that hits around age sixty is rising.

    I did not understand that your question was about your daughter. That is a worry I have for my eighteen year old daughter also, because she had chicken pox as a six month old baby she has a much higher chance of getting shingles at a younger age. It does not help that one of her professors described getting shingles during a stressful time while in graduate school while she was in her early twenties. I am seriously thinking of mentioning this to our family doctor to see if my daughter could get a varicella or shingles vaccines (though I’d have to pay for it, just like I did for 22 year old son’s HPV vaccine).

    The two weeks she had chicken pox was terrible. She cried, could hardly sleep and there was no way to comfort her. It did not help that her five year old brother was so sick that he wet the bed each night, which horrible inflamed the pox. So between dealing with very a sick baby, I was also changing sheets and giving her brother a bath every night for almost two weeks. That was after the two week of taking care of the other brother who brought the pox to our house from preschool.

    When it was time to help with the kindergarten field trip after the five year old recovered, half of the class was still sick. Then there was one student from that school who ended up in the hospital with a opportunistic bacterial infection. There was a very real chance he was going have a limb amputated.

  47. anonymous
    November 20, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    Chris:
    Let me restate the question:
    Is there an increase in shingles because the exposure to the “chicken pox wild virus” has been reduced due to the vaccine?

  48. November 20, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    @Canis – spoken by someone who has obviously never been involved in a civil litigation against a major corporation….I would much rather be allowed to present my evidence, without corporate attorneys constantly making motions & attempting to delay the proceedings, and have only to show proximate cause to receive a summary judgement (50% + a feather is the term most commonly used).

    The Vaccine Court has paid out on numerous legitimate claims of vaccine injury – that which has been scientifically proven to exist. No scientific evidence exists that vaccines cause autism, as much as you would like there to be…..

    And again, please define a “safe” vaccine? – you are avoiding the question.

  49. November 20, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    @anonymous – supposition, maybe…..I would most likely say that the “jury is still out” and research continues.

    The chances of your daughter having a shingles flare-up is very small – certainly less than 1/10 of 1% (based on the available figures). She is more likely to suffer a car accident than she would suffer from Shingles at her age.

    Base your decisions on actual facts, not anti-vaccine fear-mongers.

  50. Chris
    November 20, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    anonymous, let me repeat this: Citation needed for your statement:

    There are fewer cases of chicken pox with the creation of the Varicella vaccine, however there has been an explosion of herpes zoster (shingles) in the adult population who have had a case of chicken pox.

    When you make a statement, you need to provide that evidence to support that statement. Now, when I say “citation” I mean provide the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper showing that there has been an explosion of shingles. That does not mean an article that states the obvious that a demographic that most likely gets shingles is an abnormally large population.

  51. anonymous
    November 20, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Wow! Lawrence & Chris….sorry I came here. I will definitely choose another blog which is not so hostile. “anti-vaccine fear mongers”…..really? United States Veterans. Should I call you anti-American? Show a little respect to our military who defend your freedom to choose.
    U.S. Medicine is an American veteran website.

  52. lilady
    November 20, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Anonymous: Have you seen this citation from PubMed?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22828595

    Abstract

    Background. The Shingles Prevention Study (SPS; Department of Veterans Affairs Cooperative Study 403) demonstrated that zoster vaccine was efficacious through 4 years after vaccination. The Short-Term Persistence Substudy (STPS) was initiated after the SPS to further assess the persistence of vaccine efficacy. Methods. The STPS re-enrolled 7320 vaccine and 6950 placebo recipients from the 38 546-subject SPS population. Methods of surveillance, case determination, and follow-up were analogous to those in the SPS. Vaccine efficacy for herpes zoster (HZ) burden of illness, incidence of postherpetic neuralgia (PHN), and incidence of HZ were assessed for the STPS population, for the combined SPS and STPS populations, and for each year through year 7 after vaccination. Results. In the STPS as compared to the SPS, vaccine efficacy for HZ burden of illness decreased from 61.1% to 50.1%, vaccine efficacy for the incidence of PHN decreased from 66.5% to 60.1%, and vaccine efficacy for the incidence of HZ decreased from 51.3% to 39.6%, although the differences were not statistically significant. Analysis of vaccine efficacy in each year after vaccination for all 3 outcomes showed a decrease in vaccine efficacy after year 1, with a further decline thereafter. Vaccine efficacy was statistically significant for the incidence of HZ and the HZ burden of illness through year 5. Conclusions. Vaccine efficacy for each study outcome was lower in the STPS than in the SPS. There is evidence of the persistence of vaccine efficacy through year 5 after vaccination but, vaccine efficacy is uncertain beyond that point.

    How about *waiting* for additional studies to determine the efficacy of the “Shingles Vaccine”?

  53. Chris
    November 20, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    anonymous:

    Wow! Lawrence & Chris….sorry I came here. I will definitely choose another blog which is not so hostile.

    Because I asked for evidence to support your statement?

    United States Veterans. Should I call you anti-American? Show a little respect to our military who defend your freedom to choose

    Le sigh. The article was specifically about persons who were over sixty years old, and that the VA needed to encourage more veterans to get the shingles vaccine. It also mentioned that those over sixty were increasing, just like I had mentioned. It actually supported my statements more than yours.

    I was an Army brat. I am from a family that has served this country since the American Revolution. Fortunately, being an Army brat I was educated in some of the best schools, including a few overseas (like the in the former Panama Canal Zone where the schools were run by the DoD). I know how to read an article, and to not make statements without evidence.

  54. billy
    November 20, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    Asking for evidence is the most hostile thing in the world, Chris. Remember when Tarkin used the Death Star to ask for evidence from Alderan? Asking for evidence is so terrifying that it’s amazing that anonymous dared even return – he must be far far braver than most antivaxxers.

  55. November 20, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    @billy – extra points for the Star Wars reference….I didn’t feel like I was doing anything of the sort – just pointing out that research continues, but that decisions should be made by examining actual evidence, not the claims of anti-vaccine groups.

    And, as a veteran myself, I’m a bit perturbed by Anon’s accusations.

  56. Canis antarcticus
    November 21, 2012 at 12:47 am

    lilady, I’ll make sure I use a different nym next time I want to comment if it will make you feel better. Maybe anonymous or how about lilman? Maybe just troll, since that is your favorite choice when name calling. I am sure lilady is not your god given name.

  57. Quokka
    November 21, 2012 at 1:59 am

    Canis you never said what the vaccine injury your family member got and whether you submitted a compensation claim of any sort.

    Renay I am so sorry for your loss. I expect it is very difficult for you to read people constantly bragging about how well they and everyone they know dealt with having CP as a child. It comes close to blaming the victim for just not fighting it off the way they did – it is very hurtful and ignorant. Again my sympathies.

  58. lilady
    November 21, 2012 at 2:44 am

    Canis…you can use whichever ‘nym you care to, when you post here, but kindly stick to one ‘nym and don’t resort to sock puppets.

    Upset are you…that I called you out on the choice of your ‘nym…using the Latin name for another poster here? Tough.

    I post on many science blogs and since I started posting a few years back, I’ve only used one nym.

    We’d love for you to detail all the *vaccine injuries* you’ve heard about and the specific *vaccine injury* that you claim was experienced by a close family member.

  59. Canis antarcticus
    November 21, 2012 at 3:15 am

    Uncle was severely injured (paralyzed) by the flu vaccine, friend’s daughter was injured by the H1N1 vaccine (neurological damage), and another friend’s Mom recently had a reaction to the flu vaccine and she was disoriented for a few days. This is why I don’t believe vaccine injuries are rare. Try asking your friends and family if they know anybody that has had a bad reaction or injury to vaccines and see what happens.

  60. lilady
    November 21, 2012 at 3:37 am

    Are you claiming that your uncle received the swine flu vaccine in 1976 and was later diagnosed with Guillain-Barre Syndrome?

    Your friend’s daughter, if she really did suffer neurological damage from the H1N1 vaccine, has the option of making a claim in the Vaccine Court.

    Another friend was “disoriented” after a flu vaccine, according to you.

    These are all anecdotal stories, subject to your biases. Most times the symptoms, syndromes and disorders that people attribute to having a vaccine, are proven to be false correlations.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm

    Here’s how the CDC monitors the safety of each vaccine…which goes way beyond the initial VAERS reports:

    http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/why-immunize/monitoring-vaccine-safety

  61. November 21, 2012 at 4:21 am

    @Canis antarcticus, I admit I don’t know everyone in the world, but I have known a lot of people in my life, in two different states. Of all those people, not to mention my own 6 children and my many nieces and nephews, I’ve never known anyone ever who had a serious vaccine reaction.

    I have however seen or experienced the effects of VPDs. Not just chicken pox, but others also. Permanent lung damage from pertussis, total deafness in one ear from meningitis, not to mention the suffering through those diseases.

    There is also disability in my immediate family, and I’ve known others with disabilities too. I went to one of the only elementary schools in my school district that had a very extensive special ed program, and the children with disabilities spent regular time in the classroom with us also, so I knew them. I never knew what they specific disabilities were, I never thought to ask them, it didn’t seem pertinent to who they were. In high school they were included with the general population of students more often. I had a girl who went to high school with me taking the same classes as I did and she had Downs. My older brother has cerebral palsy. My younger sister had a speech disorder due to slight brain damage from nearly strangling to death (the old baby and toddler clothes from the 60′s) when she was a year and a half. And my youngest son has autism. No vaccine had anything to do with those though, so you can’t even come close to blaming them.

  62. Quokka
    November 21, 2012 at 4:22 am

    Canis I have worked in the disability /Human Rights and education field for over 20 yrs
    Dealing with literally thousands of men, women and children with acquired disability. I have never met or had reported to me that any of these acquired disabilities has been from vaccines.

    I have in that time however met a number of people who acquired disability from VPD.

    I am not sure what you mean by neurological damage, paralysed or disoriented in terms of actual diagnosis. Where any of these people diagnosed and where the adverse events you attribute to vaccines permanent?

  63. Quokka
    November 21, 2012 at 4:51 am

    Ooh dyslexia is a pain. Should read “were” not “where” both times!

  64. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 5:04 am

    Canis, personally I don’t care what nym you post under – I’m rather flattered in fact that you chose one based on mine.

    As others have pointed out, vaccines are not free of complications and reactions, sometimes severe, do happen. The risk of these pales into insignificance when one comnsiders the risks from the diseases themselves.

    For vaccines like chickenpox, where the disease is usually mild and leads to no sequelae, the risk benefit equation is less clear cut than it is for other vaccines like MMR, meningo, pneumovax, polio etc, but it still favors vaccination.

    The supposed “problem” with chickenpox vaccine seems in the eyes of those who are against it to be based solely on the likelihood that as chickenpox declines in prevalence (a good thing) that the risk of shingles in the eldely increases in the short term because they are deprived of the natural “vaccination booster” of exposure to natural chickenpox during their lives.

    This “problem” is one which is easily overcome by giving the “booster” as a vaccine later in life, and shingles vaccine is advised for 60yr olds, and is very effective. So the only objection comes from idiots like anonymous who seem to think this vaccine somehow shortens their lives.

    I’d also point out that in the prevaccine era people suffered shingles, so having natural chickenpox as a child is not a means to reliably avoid getting shingles. It is also true to say that as chickenpox declines in prevalence (thanks to childhood vaccination) we move into a situation where shingles will become rare (because there will be so few people remaining who had natural chickenpox as children), so the “problem” of possible shingles in the eldely is likely to be a temporary one.

  65. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 5:08 am

    Canis, I hope you realise that the complication from flu vaccine known as Guillain Barre syndrome (which I assume your relative suffered) is around 10 times more likely to result from a natural flu infection than it is from vaccine exposure?

  66. November 21, 2012 at 5:36 am

    Hi, I am a 62 yr old female who was blessed to have the chicken pox as a small child.
    I just left a blog (it never posted???) explaining how 6 years later, I still have the affects of the shingles that I had/have. The total left side of my head, affecting my L eye and L ear. It felt as if needles were going into my eye and ear. I had blisters on my head and face. I couldn’t even comb the left side of my hair. I have had to have my tearduct plugged. I use rostasis in my left eye. I have chronic dry eye now. I still have irritation over the total left side of my face and head. It will at least a couple of times a week make me feel like I could scratch the skin off. I was off work for 3 months. I will trade the shingles for a CP vaccine any day.
    I can’t believe that the Shingles Vaccine isn’t covered by my insurance.

  67. November 21, 2012 at 6:54 am

    @Lilady / Dingo – our friend Canis has posted here before. That story of his jives nicely with a similar story brought up not too long ago by “another” poster.

    I doubt that he’ll answer the direct questions – was a VAERS entry made (and what was the report number)? Was a claim filed with the Vaccine Court? If not, why not?

  68. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Apologies… I see it was Canis who said that shingles vaccine was “pushing people into an early grave”, and not “Anonymous” who said so as I thought.

  69. lilady
    November 21, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Well I gave Canis the link to the Guillain-Barre site and I have more links to GBS as a consequence of infection with the C. Jejuni bacterium.

    Barb, I’m sorry that you are still suffering the consequences of a shingles episode.

  70. Chris
    November 21, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Lawrence:

    @Lilady / Dingo – our friend Canis has posted here before. That story of his jives nicely with a similar story brought up not too long ago by “another” poster.

    Also, it seems this person does not seem to understand that the influenza and varicella are two completely different diseases, so the affects from the vaccines would not be the same.

    Perhaps he has in his mind that getting the varicella vaccine instead of actually getting chicken pox makes a person more susceptible to the influenza vaccine? But that makes no sense since all of those people in his anecdotes would have actually had chicken pox (perhaps some of those “reactions” were forms of shingles).

    Dingo199, I have no idea what anonymous was going about. I think he/she was trying to make the case that shingles was increasing in all age groups, and went postal when asked to provide better evidence than the one article on veterans over sixty years old. I thought it was odd that she was asking about her twenty-something daughter and used an article about folks who served during the Vietnam War.

    Even though the recommendation is only for those older than sixty, the FDA approved it for fifty and over:

    At this time, CDC does not have a recommendation for routine use of shingles vaccine in persons 50 through 59 years old. However, the vaccine is approved by FDA for people in this age group.

    Hubby and I were given the shingles vaccine when I finally dragged him in to see the family doctor. Neither of us are sixty, though we were born the year that the Baby Boom peaked.

  71. Rational Antivax
    November 21, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    But given how complex these seemingly simple questions are (shifting epidemiology, waning immunity, loss of cell-mediated immunity as we, I mean all of you, get older) AND my natural verbosity, I think I would like to take my time and answer this properly, which means more space than I have here.

    Maybe that’s all you’ve got, natural verbosity, with due respect doctor. Would it take time and space to simply and accurately tell them that the VZV vaccine promotes primary varicella infection? And a cum laude as you say you are would know that primary varicella infection is a prerequisite to shingles development.

    Is that how you recruit new patients thru natural verbosity? No wonder they are misinformed.

  72. November 21, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Why Thingy, you managed to make it back…..surprise, surprise….

  73. lilady
    November 21, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    @ Rational Antivax: Perhaps you would like to provide some citations about the varicella vaccine and its ability to “promote primary varicella infection”.

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/a-look-at-each-vaccine/varicella-chickenpox-vaccine.html

    Maybe that’s all you’ve got…”with due respect”.

  74. November 21, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    @lilady – no other troll talks like that. It’s our old friend, Insane Thingy Troll….

  75. lilady
    November 21, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    @ Lawrence: I was assuming the same thing about “Rational Antivax”. Could there be another poster here, with Thingy’s delusions and Thingy’s ability to mangle the science of immunology?

  76. barbe950
    November 21, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Thank you. I just want all of you to realize just how debilitating shingles can really be and the value of a vaccine. I doubt that anyone would go through years of research to develope s vaccine just to hurt anyone. I my step-father got shingles at about 85, but not as severe as mine. I can’t imagine being that old and dealing with what I had/have.

  77. Kenny
    November 21, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    I’m not really following all of this….is the vaccine supposed to make it so you don’t get shingles? My wife got the vaccine as an adult and has had two cases of shingles since. She was only 31 the last time around and is 36 now.

  78. Elli
    November 21, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    I don’t think it is right to treat Canis antarcticus (or Steve, or any of us) with disrespect. The points he brought up are valid ones, and much on the mind of many parents. I appreciate the new Lara’s respectful reception of my comment yesterday, recognizing that these are valid fears which deserve a considered answer.

    Lawrence, you say that experts examine all cases reported to the VAERS. And then what? Do you think that they are able to find a watertight alternative explanation for the adverse events reported that, in most cases, occurred shortly after a vaccination was received? Can they conclude with 100%, or even 80% certainty, (20%?) that it was something else that caused the reaction, and exactly what it was? Are we supposed to fear this almost always mild disease more than the possible side effects just because we are told, by members of the vaccine establishment, that we must do so?

    As Canis said, most of us had chickenpox when we were children, it was uncomfortable for a week or so, and then we got well. When we read VAERS reports like the following, is it not our right to conclude that the vaccine may be more dangerous than the disease for our children, and act accordingly?

    Chris, when you say that it is child torture to make a child go through the disease instead of protecting them with a vaccine, are we not in any case talking about short-term discomfort to avoid longer-term severe problems? A shot is uncomfortable, I was terrified to even set foot in a doctor’s office as a child for that reason. My heart started beating very fast when learning that I was to be taken to the doctor, and the whole time I kept looking over my shoulder and whirling around, fearing that someone was going to sneak up and suddenly jab me with a needle from behind. And then I did get jabbed many times, and it was very painful, It was an immature reaction, but I assure you that it was torture for me. You believe that the short-term pain of a shot is worth it to avoid a week of itching. Others might (and do) feel that a week of itching is worth it to achieve permanent immunity from a disease often more dangerous when caught by an adult.

    The following are VAERS cases with their numbers that anyone can look up. OK, the link between the vaccine and their apparent result might be coincidence, but personally, I don’t think it was. Even if “authorities” investigated them and thought they were coincidence, what do they think really caused them? Can we parents not be forgiven for coming to a different conclusion?

    107121 A 1-year old child gets rash, throws up, screams, goes into cardiac arrest, and dies, four days after getting varicella shot.
    121661 Three year old gets shot, nine days later is paralyzed, can’t walk or urinate
    122210 Four year old gets chickenpox rash six days after shot and hospitalized with staph infection
    175928 Eight year old child gets dizzy, confused, three days after shot. Went into seizures and life-flighted to hospital
    131631 Two year old becomes dazed and loses consciousness five minutes after shot
    122210 Four year old develops kidney damage two days after shot, two weeks later has breakthrough chickenpox and superinfection, is hospitalized
    275714 Eight year old vomits and loses consciousness ten minutes after shot. Unresponsive, acute respiratory distress, and rushed to ER
    80082 Four year old gets lymphocytic leukemia, headaches, leg pain, bruises, decreased hemoglobin and platelet counts starting the day after varicella vaccine. Hospitalized for 28 days.

    And there are many, many more. The FDA admitted that such reactions were “plausible as potential effects” of the chickenpox vaccine. Insulting us does nothing to dispel our fears, and we would be poor parents indeed if we valued the approval of our pediatrician over the well-being of our children.

  79. Elli
    November 21, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Kenny,
    As your wife has learned, you can get shingles from the vaccine as well as from having had the disease. It just requires a live herpes zoster virus being introduced into the body and later being reactivated. The varicella vaccine is a live virus vaccine.

  80. Eii
    November 21, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Barbe950,
    I also don’t believe anyone goes through years of research to develop a vaccine only designed to hurt people. But I think a lot of people would be willing to develop a vaccine designed to prevent anything, and then promote it for all they’re worth, if they can make money off of it.

  81. November 21, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    @elli – if you knew how the VAERS process works (and actually read the disclaimer) you’d know that follow-up does occur, but it won’t be reflected in the VAERS entry (since it is only a place to collect information).

    There is on-going CDC & FDA surveillance of vaccines to track real reactions and monitor safety concerns. After a review of a couple of decades worth of records, studies and research, serious side-effects / reactions to vaccines were found to be extremely rare – so rare in some cases that it was impossible to statistically link the vaccines to the reaction (as few as 1 in 10mil cases).

    You list 8 cases, out of how many millions of vaccines that have been given (Chickenpox alone) – it isn’t even possible for a child to have those types of reactions within “minutes” of receiving the vaccine, since it takes a while for the vaccine to get from the muscle tissue into the body. Of course, if one has an allergic reaction, that is different & certainly a known serious side-effect – but not the type that you are claiming.

    Seeing those entries, you have no idea what the real medical history of those children were – which is why follow-ups are done to determine causation. Making medical decisions, without having all of the information, is foolish.

    When my siblings and I went through the Chicken Pox as children, it was 9 weeks total of pretty hellish experiences, as each of us went through fairly significant & serious incidences of the disease.

    If you compare the incidences of actual side-effects from the disease, which can occur in as many as 1 in 100 cases, to the chances of a serious vaccine reaction, which “may” occur in 1 in 1 million cases or 1 in 10 million cases, you can sit there an honestly believe that the vaccine is worse than the disease?

    This is also applicable to diseases like measles, mumps and rubella – which can cause blindness, deafness, sterility, and in the case of rubella, congenital birth defects (the last major outbreak in the late 1960′s caused the death and disablement of tens of thousands of children). Medicine does a much better job today at keeping people alive (hence the decrease in overall mortality since the beginning of this century), but what modern medicine can’t do (without vaccines) is prevent people from getting the diseases (and the side-effects) in the first place.

    Vaccines have allowed us to see a 95 – 99% decrease in childhood diseases – diseases that did and still do kill people, and more importantly, do have very serious side-effects that can disable kids for life….as opposed to the supposition and unproven rants that vaccines are linked to autism & severe reactions.

    We deal in facts – I don’t base my health decisions on anti-vaccine rants.

  82. November 21, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    @elli – if you don’t listen to & trust your pediatrician (who is, you know, an actual trained medical professional), then you have a bigger problem……

    My family has a great relationship with our pediatrician. She and her staff are very straightforward, listen to concerns and work with us on the best possible health plan for our kids – why parents would ever thing these people, who have children of their own, could be part of some worldwide conspiracy to cover-up vaccine problems, is completely beyond me.

    I think many of these people have never had a real conversation with a medical professional & only believe the wild conspiracy theories put out by the anti-vaccine groups.

  83. November 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    @elli – When I had Chicken Pox, it certainly was more than “a week’s worth of itching.” Same applied to my siblings as well. I remember the high fevers, feeling horrid, being bedridden & somewhat hallucinatory – not to mention that my brother has several infected sores as well, which resulted in even more downtime & suffering.

    Getting shots can be hard, but I would take a second or two of the jab over a disease, any day of the week. As a parent, why would you want your kids to get sick?

    In this day & age where parents rush their kids to the doctor with the tiniest cold, you’d be perfectly happy with them suffering what could be a life-debilitating disease? These disease can & do kill people – why take that chance?

  84. Chris
    November 21, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Kenny:

    My wife got the vaccine as an adult and has had two cases of shingles since.

    Why would she get the vaccine as an adult? That seems odd.

  85. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    @ Elli
    1. VAERS cases are investigated, and a conclusion is drawn if possible about the likelihood that the reaction reported is due to the vaccine. This serves as a “red flag” for vaccine reactions, and can be helpful as was shown in the case of rotavirus vaccines. However, most VAERS reports contain meningless or general information making investigation difficult. I have seen reports of death from gardasil where it was “a friend of a friend of a friend said she may have read something in the paper about gardasil causing deaths”, or “a friend overheard a nurse say that gardasil could be dangerous”. Many VAERS reports are plain nonsense, and many bear no relation to the vaccine in timing or plausible causation.

    2. You cite several VAERS reports for chickenpox vaccine reactions. I haven’t verified them and I accept that there are a handful of serious reports in the database, and that vaccines can cause severe problems very rarely. But even you must appreciate that discovering a child has leukemia the day after they got a vaccine is purely coincidence? Also live virus vaccines can sometimes cause a milder version of the real thing – it would be a strange vaccine indeed if chickenpox did not occasionally cause a minor chickenpox type rash with the attendant complications that can follow such as skin infections (but then again, seeing as how chickenpox in all its natural glory is supposedly so trivial, how can a milder version of it be so bad?)

    3. If you favor the well being of your children, then it would be better to take the advice of your pediatrician or that of any of the the appropriate and responsible agencies involved in infection, epidemiology, immunology, public health and vaccination (they all recommend vaccination, and for good reason). Seeking internet websites that needlessly promote scare stories about the consequenses of vaccination and which stop people from vaccinating will be of detriment to your children ultimately. Failing to vaccinate children exposes them to the far far greater risks consequent to the infection, and worryingly, as time goes by unvaccinated children grow into vulnerable and unvaccinated adults in whom the risks multiply further should they ever catch the disease, be that chickenpox, mumps, measles, whatever (the exception is pertussis, which is much milder in adults).

    4. Chickenpox infection does not cause one to have “permanent immunity”. The immune response to the infection is inadequate to eradicate it, and the virus always causes latent infection which is kept suppressed by the host immune system, often indefinitely. However, in many cases the hostimmune system cannot maintain suppressive control, and the virus reactivates, causing shingles. The fact that in the prevax era shingles was still fairly common blows a hole through your concept that immunity is somehow “permanent”. Chickenpox vaccine achieves 2 things – it infects the host with a milder, attenuated form of the virus, and averts the nastiness of the primary attack of chickenpox. It stimulates immunity which is similar to that of natural infection. With age, fading immunity in the host might precipitate a shingles type reactivation, but this is likely to be less severe than what we are used to see with shingles after natural chickenpox. in other words it should remain suppressive until it wanes with age and then the peron would be at risk of reactivation with vaccine-strain.

    5. I cannot grasp the logic in saying, as many do, that they want to get the natural infection so that they get “permanent immunity” that stops them catching the disease in future. What possible rationale is there in experiencing illness and the significant risks associated with potentially fatal diseases so that one can claim “oh well at least then I won’t get it again!”?
    Alternatively, if the diseases are so minor (as many say), then why the need for “permanent immunity” anyway – surely people won’t mind one bit catching it again, and again, and again, seeing as how trivial it all is?

  86. Kenny
    November 21, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    @Chris

    Why is that odd? She didn’t get the Chicken Pox as a kid, so her Dr. told her to get the vaccine, because if she got the Ck Px as an adult it would be really bad for her. Am I missing something?

  87. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    Elli :Kenny,As your wife has learned, you can get shingles from the vaccine as well as from having had the disease. It just requires a live herpes zoster virus being introduced into the body and later being reactivated. The varicella vaccine is a live virus vaccine.

    Let’s take this claim to its logical conclusion – VZV vaccine prevents primary chickenpox (good thing) but not shingles (unfortunate), but natural chickenpox gives you a nasty illness (bad thing) as well as shingles (unfortunate).

    Let people do the math.

    And let’s not forget that the VZV reactivation one experiences from attenuated vaccine strain VZV is likelier to be milder than full-blown wild type VZV reactivation

  88. November 21, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    @dingo – stop using logic & rational thinking! It is too confusing!!!!

  89. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Kenny :@Chris
    Why is that odd? She didn’t get the Chicken Pox as a kid, so her Dr. told her to get the vaccine, because if she got the Ck Px as an adult it would be really bad for her. Am I missing something?

    No, I can see the logic in offering her vaccine as an adult. But did she get her titers checked to manke sure she had never had chickenpox as a child herself, and just could not remember having it?

    People who have chicken pox or VZV vaccine are both susceptible to reactivation which manifests as a shingles rash. That’s the situation, and your wife was unfortunate. But equally, had she caught chickenpox as an adult she might have experienced severe pneumonitis or encephalitis, which are bothe commoner in adults who have primary VZV infection (and I have seen these, and seen people die from these).

  90. Chris
    November 21, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    No, Kenny, I was. I just did not know it was routinely given to adults. Did you report the shingles to VAERS?

  91. Kenny
    November 21, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Had no idea what VAERS was….should it be reported? Her last case was approx 4 years ago now.

  92. Rational Antivax
    November 21, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    dingo…

    Chickenpox vaccine achieves 2 things – it infects the host with a milder, attenuated form of the virus, and averts the nastiness of the primary attack of chickenpox.

    Proves that you are an infection promoter. And by deliberately infecting otherwise unvaccinated and uninfected children with vaccine VZV would certainly qualify them to develop shingles later in life. Not good.

  93. Chris
    November 21, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    Kenny:

    Had no idea what VAERS was….should it be reported?

    Since you are complaining about, of course it should be reported. It is odd you don’t know that. She was given a vaccine information sheet with all that information, which has been required for all vaccinations for twenty years. She should have read it. Anyway, try reading it now.

  94. Rational Antivax
    November 21, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    dingo…

    VZV vaccine prevents primary chickenpox (good thing) but not shingles (unfortunate),

    That’s demonstrably false. A primary varicella infection can be caused by either natural infection or varicella vaccine. How many naive children did you recruit so far who will later develop shingles when they grow old?

  95. Kenny
    November 21, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    @Chris

    She didn’t get shingles immediately following a vaccination….it was probably 2-3 years later. I didn’t realize I was complaining. I thought I was asking for some information because I was confused by the above information.

  96. Kenny
    November 21, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    Thank you Dingo!

  97. November 21, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Insane troll, time for you to go bye-bye.

  98. dingo199
    November 21, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Rational Antivax :
    dingo…

    VZV vaccine prevents primary chickenpox (good thing) but not shingles (unfortunate),

    That’s demonstrably false. A primary varicella infection can be caused by either natural infection or varicella vaccine. How many naive children did you recruit so far who will later develop shingles when they grow old?

    Have it your way Thingy….. If you like, yes, I suggest people get primary infection with a harmless form of a particular virus in order to protect them from the not-insubstantial risks of harm they would encounter from acquiring the fullblown disease naturally.

    I can’t help it, I like doing good for people and like stopping them suffer, it’s just in my altruistic nature.

  99. novalox
    November 21, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    @Lawrence

    The reason thingy is posting now under another pathetic excuse for a sockpuppet is that she believes that the owner of the blog is away on holiday and won’t get around to banning her sorry butt for a while.

    But thingy is so identifiable, from her total hatred of children and her perverse intentions of seeing them suffer from VPDs.

  100. dingo199
    November 22, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Perhaps this little objective assessment of VAERS reports might help people like Naomi and Anonymous:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X12014181

    They checked 100 VAERS reports for adverse events following immunization (AEFI) reports.

    “only 3 (3%) of the AEFI were classified as definitely causally related to vaccine received.”

    Like we were saying…

  101. dingo199
    November 22, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Sorry, meant Elli there.

  102. November 22, 2012 at 10:32 pm

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  103. lilady
    November 22, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Hello Facebook Spammer.

  104. Eli
    November 23, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Chris,
    Since Kenny says that it’s been four years since his wife’s reaction, it’s too late to claim in Vaccine Court, though they could still report it to the VAERS. Why is it not better advertised that vaccine reactions should be reported to this FDA agency? Why did Kenny’s wife’s doctor not suggest that her titers be drawn to find out if she already had antibodies?
    Lawrence,
    Since reactions never come with proof that they were caused, or not caused, by a vaccine, the best that researchers can do in most cases is say that, in their opinion, the causal relationship is plausible or implausible, and they may or may not be correct.
    The AMA study referenced already found that there were 67.5 adverse reactions in every 100,000 doses sold, that 4% of reports were of “serious” adverse reactions, defined by the FDA as death, life-threatening events, hospitalizations, or persistent or significant disabilities. In this case, this meant, for the most part, neuroogical disorders, immune system damage, blood disorders, brain inflammation (encephalitis), seizures, and death. Children under four had serious reactions at a rate of 6.3%, under two 9.2%, those under one year old vaccinated by mistake had serious reactions at a rate of 14%! Again, this rate is well above the one in a million case of severe reactions that you suggest, Lawrence.
    If this is going to come down to a dispute over whether or not chickenpox is usually a serious disease, maybe we should take a poll of those (drawn from outside this site) who remember having had the disease and ask them whether or not it was severe. In the case of me and my children, we had it and it was not severe. I had shingles as a relatively young adult, and it was not bad at all, and not painful. I recognize that for many who have had it, including some friends, it can be very painful and long-lasting. My father had chickenpox as an adult, and it was not a bad case, but I recognize that for many adults it can be dangerous.
    It is evident that this is coming down to your recommending that everyone get the varicella vaccine at 18 months (despite the high rate of adverse events) and then get boosters every few years for life, as you recommend for pertussis. Personally, I think that would be torture. And it’s unknown yet how that would affect the rate of adverse vaccine reactions and the rate of shingles among the vaccinated. I’m glad I got chickenpox as a child, that my children got it, that we had pertussis (despite vaccination), and now we don’t have to think about either disease again, at least from a personal standpoint, for the rest of our lives.

  105. Eli
    November 23, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Lil,
    Why would you say that Thingy hates children? She thinks it’s a bad thing for them to suffer as a result of infection, and I agree, though I think it’s better to suffer as children from chickenpox than as adults from its sometimes more dangerous manifestations in adulthood. Insults like this really lower the quality of the discussion.

  106. Elli
    November 23, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Dingo,
    I’m sure you realize that a natural case of chickenpox gives permanent immunity, meaning that the person won’t get chickenpox again, very important since chickenpox caught in adulthood can be dangerous, but very rarely is among children. As already noted, once the virus is in the body, whether through natural disease or vaccination, it goes latent and may later resurface as shingles. No group is immune to that, the sequence for everyone is chickenpox or (repeated) vaccines, then possibly shingles later in life. Both my parents had had chickenpox and neither of them ever had shingles, so it’s not an inevitable sequence

  107. lilady
    November 23, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    @ Elli: Whatever are you banging on about? We’ve already discussed, many times, the unreliability of VAERS reports, when prompted by anti-vaccine websites. In any case each of the VAERS reports are investigate by trained medical staff, medical records associated with the reported Adverse Event are requested and reviewed, to determine if a vaccine is implicated in that event.

    @ Kenny: I would be interested in why your wife’s titers were drawn to test for immunity against the virus. Was it prior to getting pregnant or at the time of her first prenatal visit? If she was already pregnant, then following the delivery, she would have been advised to get the vaccine, to protect your babies during future pregnancies.

    Perhaps, your wife was attending a school program, or was tested for immunities against childhood diseases, as part of her pre-employment physical…and prior to exposure to patients in a clinical area.

  108. dingo199
    November 23, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Elli, you have been told that natural diesases do not grant “permanent immunity”.
    There are well documented instances of children catching chickenpox twice – my own older sister even had this when my turn to get it came round, and she got it again, from me.
    Pertussis immunity lasts 20 years max. The immunity from some other diseases is not permanent either, in fact from some it is entirely non-existent (typhoid, tetanus eg)

  109. lilady
    November 23, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    Elli: I didn’t state on this thread that “Thingy hates children”…although I have stated similar things to Thingy, before she and her sockies were banned from this blog and a number of other science blogs.

    She is also delusional, claimed that she is a registered nurse…and is clueless about vaccines and the serious, sometimes deadly, vaccine-preventable diseases.

  110. November 23, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    Elli is the sockie of cia parker. Her gish gallop is obvious and she is using the same old arguments that we have debunked time and time again. Just pointing this out to those that might not be aware. (She has used the sockie nym Elli before, I thought she had been banned with that one as well.)

  111. November 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    @Lara – that’s what I expected. Her story was waaaay too similar to what had been posted before (multiple family members with vaccine-injuries, etc)…

  112. lilady
    November 23, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    @ Lara Lohne: I *know* Elli is CIA Parker. I’ve been slapping her down at Emily Willingham’s Forbes blog…whenever she comes posting about her child’s “vaccine-induced-encephalitis”. (Click to Expand All Comments):

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2012/11/16/autism-is-not-just-an-american-thing/#post_comments

  113. November 23, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    @lara – that’s right! Though I think cia parker was “ella” before.

  114. Lara Lohne
    November 23, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    @Lawrence, right, sorry. One letter off, to me it’s the same name, LOL! You would think she’s change her lies along with her nym, because it’s too easy to tell who she is.

  115. dingo199
    November 23, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Elli said:

    “The AMA study referenced already found that there were 67.5 adverse reactions in every 100,000 doses sold, that 4% of reports were of “serious” adverse reactions, defined by the FDA as death, life-threatening events, hospitalizations, or persistent or significant disabilities. In this case, this meant, for the most part, neuroogical disorders, immune system damage, blood disorders, brain inflammation (encephalitis), seizures, and death.”

    So, to be clear, this means that 0.0067% of doses cause reactions, and that 4% of these are “serious”, meaning 0.000268% (ie 2.68 per million).

    Now chickenpox vaccine is a live vaccine – equivalent to giving a stunted version of the real thing which provokes an equivalent immune response but avoids the usual complications of the wild type natural infection (well, almost avoids, since complications may occur similar to those seen with the full-blown disease, albeit far more rarely).

    So catching the natural infection (which almost ALL children would do without vaccination) would result in exactly these same “severe” reactions Ellie is so “concerned” about, but at a far far higher frequency, resulting in 2-3000 admissions per million cases and killing 17 per million (CDC pink book data).

    The case for vaccination looks like a total no-brainer to me from where I sit, Ellie/Cia.

  116. November 23, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    @dingo – math is not the anti-vaccinationists’ strong suit…..

  117. Kenny
    November 24, 2012 at 12:34 am

    @lilady

    What are you talking about? You must be confused or have me mixed up with somebody else?

  118. lilady
    November 24, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    @ Kenny: I don’t have you confused with another poster. Up thread (#77) you stated that your 36 year old wife was given the chicken pox vaccine, as an adult.

    I questioned you if your wife had blood titers drawn to determine if she was susceptible to the virus, for a specific reason. See this link from the CDC about adult immunization against chicken pox:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/basic-who-needs-vacc.htm

    See also the linked article to determining if an adult is immune:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/basic-immunity.htm

  119. lilady
    November 24, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    @ Kenny: If your wife was born before 1980, she would be considered “immune” to varicella, according to the CDC recommendations…and vaccination is not recommended.

    However, if she was born before 1980 and works in health care or other professions with exposure to vulnerable people, is pregnant or postpartum, or entering college, testing for immunity is recommended:

    http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/immunity.html

  120. Chris
    November 24, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    I think the question is, Kenny, is how positive that your wife did not have chicken pox? I don’t remember getting rubella, yet the the test I was given when I was pregnant shows that I did. And if your wife got chicken pox very young (like under age one) she would not remember, and it would make her more vulnerable to shingles. One way to have found out was to get have titers prior to her being vaccinated.

    It is these kinds of questions as to why random anecdotes cannot be taken at face value.

  121. Kenny
    November 25, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    She was born in 1976, she got the ck pox vaccine in her mid twenties, she had shingles in her late twenties and ealry thirties.
    According to her Mom, she never had ck pox as a kid, and they didn’t give her a titers test before giving her the vaccine.

  122. Kenny
    November 25, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    @lilady

    And she was not pregnant, prior to being pregnant, nor for shcool and everything else you mentioned.

  123. Chris
    November 25, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Sometimes chicken pox is mild, and then confused with other rash illnesses. Plus memory is never perfect. So we will never know.

  124. lilady
    November 25, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    @ Kenny: I was tested for the presence of IGG titer against chicken pox, once the varicella vaccine became available.

    If your wife’s physician relied on anecdotal information from her mother, rather than testing for presence of immunity before administering the varicella vaccine…”we will never know” if your wife’s shingles was caused by a prior case of chicken pox or the vaccine.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/basic-immunity.htm

    You do not need the chickenpox vaccine if you meet any of these criteria for evidence of immunity:

    Documentation of age-appropriate chickenpox vaccination;

    Preschool-age children (12 months of age through 3 years old): 1 dose

    School-age children, adolescents, adults: 2 doses

    Laboratory evidence of immunity or laboratory confirmation of disease

    Birth in the United States before 1980. (Note: This is not adequate evidence of immunity for healthcare workers, pregnant women, and people with weakened immune systems. Such people need to meet one of the other criteria for evidence of immunity.)

    Diagnosis or verification of a history of chickenpox or shingles by a healthcare provider.

  125. November 25, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    There is also the possibility that a person can have chicken pox and have very few actual pox. My oldest, a girl, had chicken pox when she was in kindergarten. She caught it from a boy she went to school with who lived a few houses down from us and they played together often. My other children didn’t catch it at the time, but my daughter suffered with a very high fever for a week and was so weak she couldn’t get out of bed on her own and I was seriously concerned for her life. But she only had a handful of pox the entire time. I know that is was chicken pox she had. When my other children got it two years later when my second born was in kindergarten (also caught from a child he went to school with) my second, third and forth born got sick, but my oldest did not. I was worried that she would catch it since she didn’t have many pox before and so I wasn’t certain when she was sick that what she had was in fact chicken pox. But given that she was so sick, I wouldn’t consider her case mild, even though she didn’t have as many pox as my other children did when they had it. Basically, not every case of chicken pox will always present the same in each individual. It may appear to be something else, particularly if, like my daughter, there isn’t a significant rash.

  126. E.
    November 26, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Before the varicella vaccine began to be given in about 1995, there were about 3.5 million cases each year in the US, with about 100 deaths. About 1 in 65,000 cases was fatal, the others resolved, giving permanent immunity (to chickenpox, not to shingles, but the vaccine doesn’t give immunity to shingles either). Most cases are mild, my daughter had fever for one day with vomiting, then hundreds of pox for about ten days, then she got well. Serious complications occur in less than one percent of cases.

    So we’re back to where we were at the beginning. The disease is usually mild when children get it. It can be more dangerous when caught as an adult. The vaccine is not always effective at preventing chickenpox, and immunity will wear off in many people in the course of time, leaving them vulnerable at an age when the disease can be more dangerous. The vaccine can be dangerous, causing a wide array of adverse reactions, up to and including death. Parents should examine the facts very carefully before deciding to give, or not give, this, as well as all other, vaccines.

    Why do they assume that everyone born before 1980 is immune from having had the natural disease? Since the consequences if they are wrong and give the shot to someone previously exposed, can be very serious, why don’t they routinely test titers before giving it to someone born before 1980? Or everyone, even small children, since exposure can occur from being near someone with shingles, which will continue to become more and more common. This is like their not testing titers before giving the HPV vaccine, which is also dangerous when given to someone previously exposed to the virus, and exposure is now known to occur in contexts other than the sexual ones we’re used to thinking of. It is easier and cheaper just to vaccinate and act as though it were easy and safe. Making a production out of testing titers to make sure it’s relatively safe would cause more people to refuse the vaccine, and so they let the chips fall where they may.

  127. November 26, 2012 at 10:37 am

    @E – please show your citations that getting the Chicken Pox grants life-long immunity.

  128. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 11:45 am

    @ E: How about providing some citations for all your statements about the chicken pox virus,
    the medical problems associated with chicken pox disease and the length of time that the varicella vaccine is effective?

    I’m certain that the CDC would be interested in your *valuable* opinions:

    http://www.chop.edu/service/parents-possessing-accessing-communicating-knowledge-about-vaccines/vaccine-preventable-diseases/chicken-pox.html

  129. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Sounds like my wife’s Doc should have done a titers test on her before recommending the vaccine. I do understand his concern for her not to get it as an adult, but am wondering why he didn’t think of titers and also wondering if the vaccine is the cause of her shingles outbreaks. Sounds like a no win situation if you are an adult and never had the ck pox.

  130. Chris
    November 26, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Kenny:

    Sounds like a no win situation if you are an adult and never had the ck pox.

    A bit more accurate statement: “Sounds like a no win situation if you are an adult and don’t know if you did or did not have the ck pox.”

  131. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    @Chris

    My wife didn’t have the ck pox. According to her , her mother, and her medical records.

  132. dingo199
    November 26, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    @E (Elli/Cia I presume under yet another nym)

    You are wrong about varicella vaccine
    - It causes both milder and less frequent shingles reactivation than does natural chickenpox.
    - Immunity lasts at least as long as does that for natural chickenpox.

    You are wrong about chickenpox
    - It does NOT give “permanent immunity” (unless you also define the immunity against HIV and herpes as “permanent” too). I also gave examples from my own family where my sister got chickenpox twice. Rare, but well recognized, so please stop mischaracterizing the immunity in the way you do.

    On every aspect of this you care to mention, evidence and science is against you. You are just too bone headed or malignantly stupid to realize it.

  133. Lara Lohne
    November 26, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    My brother in law had chicken pox at the age of 6. When my children came down with it, all my nieces and nephews that had been in contact with my kids also came down with it. My brother in law got it also, even though he had it before. That being the case, your statement is false. Has always been false, and we have shown you time and time again, cia/ella/elli/E that there has never been any deaths reported from the varicella vaccine, and the ‘serious reactions’ are in fact varicella infection. Since the infection is as mild as you claim it to be, and serious reactions are very rare with the varicella vaccine, and the vaccine can confer immunity without having to suffer through the infection in the VAST majority of cases, why would you want to take the risk of permanent damage or death from the natural infection when infection from vaccine is much more rare and much less severe?

  134. Rational Antivax
    November 26, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    dingo…

    Do you actually believe that being an infection promoter like you said you are is a good thing? You are just as clueless as those parents who intentionally expose their children to natural chicken pox yet believe that by doing so would grant immunity. You believe that varicella vaccine, like natural chicken pox, causes primary varicella infection, right? You also agree that in both cases of primary varicella infection ( wild-type or vaccine type) do not grant “permanent immunity” since both would still be susceptible to varicella RE-infection. Am I correct? And then there’s the shingles which of course is the fruit your infection-promoting agenda.

    So tell me honestly who’s the good guy here?

  135. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    @ Kenny:

    My son was also born 1976 and he was unusual because he did not have chicken pox in early childhood. He was ~ 18 years old when he was infected…just before the varicella vaccine was licensed.

    As soon as he erupted with the rash, I called his doctor and he phoned in an order to a local pharmacy for an antiviral (Acyclovir). He was dosed with the Acyclovir within a few hours of the eruption. Acyclovir really did shorten the course of the illness and lessen the severity of chicken pox.

    Here, from one of my favorite websites (myclevelandclinic.org), their article about shingles:

    http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/Shingles_Varicella-Zoster_Virus/hic_Shingles.aspx

  136. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Thingy alert at # 134 above.

  137. dingo199
    November 26, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Thingy, seeing as how these natural infections (which all children will get) are according to people like you entirely “harmless”, how on earth can you criticize anyone for giving children a milder dose of it, which will be even more “harmless” (if such a thing is possible)?

  138. Chris
    November 26, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Kenny:

    My wife didn’t have the ck pox. According to her , her mother, and her medical records.

    So your mother-in-law reported every single rash to the pediatrician? Memories are imperfect. You just cannot know.

  139. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    @lilady
    Thank you!

    @Chris
    Not sure what your problem is Chis? You can say that about anything. You have not been helpful at all.

  140. Rational Antivax
    November 26, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Thingy, seeing as how these natural infections (which all children will get) are according to people like you entirely “harmless”, how on earth can you criticize anyone for giving children a milder dose of it, which will be even more “harmless” (if such a thing is possible)?

    Whether a certain infectious disease is harmless or not, a prudent person knows that intentional exposure to such is unnecessary especially if you continually err on the principle of naturally acquired active immunity…

    “Naturally acquired immunity occurs through contact with a disease causing agent, when the contact was not deliberate [...] This type of immunity is “natural” because it is not induced by deliberate exposure.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_(medical)

    Having said that, what is it you’re saying that children WILL, MUST AND SHOULD be infected nonetheless?

    Like I said, I have never had a doubt with your infection-promoting capacity. It never fails.

  141. dingo199
    November 26, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Thingy, if natural exposure is certain (as it is), why then is intentional exposure a problem to you?
    Think how much easier it is letting your kids get “infected” with a harmless vaccine at a time of your choosing than waiting for them to come down with the potentially serious natural infection just as you go on your thanksgiving break.

  142. Rational Antivax
    November 26, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    It’s called infection prevention and control. Exposure to natural infection is preventable but you’re doing the opposite. Does that make sense?

  143. Lara Lohne
    November 26, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    @dingo, it’s best to ignore the thingy troll. It truly believes it can prevent natural exposure to air born viruses that are unseen by not letting its children play in the dirt. Or walk in the grass… It doesn’t understand that the entire point of vaccination is disease prevention and control. Because without vaccination, our world wide population would not be over 6 billion strong today, and many children would not live past the age of 5, and many more who did would have permanent disabilities.

  144. Chris
    November 26, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    Kenny:

    Not sure what your problem is Chis? You can say that about anything. You have not been helpful at all.

    Sorry about that. It is just that you cannot come here with an unverifiable anecdote and expect it to be taken at face value. And, truthfully, your anecdote has not been at all helpful either. What do you expect to prove? That what happened to your wife will happen to every adult who gets a varicella vaccine?

  145. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    @ Kenny:

    Perhaps…Chris and I did made assumptions about your intentions when you posted here. Unfortunately, “The Shot of Prevention” *regulars* who post here, are accustomed to the tactics of the trolls and their sockies (JAQing Off), and you posted a slew of questions, in the midst of a “sockie attack”.

    http://jaqingoff.blogspot.com/

    What is JAQing Off?

    JAQing off is one of my favorite logical fallacies. To JAQ means to “just ask questions.” Basically, it’s when someone asks rhetorical questions in an effort to undermine an argument without actually proving that argument wrong. It’s meant to be subversive and cloud an issue. Glenn Beck is great at doing this. He can shout down people and subvert the argument in a blaze of JAQing off and chalk dust. Examples are:

    If you are such a nice a person, why don’t you believe in the existence God?

    Why don’t you think we should have safe vaccines?

    What do you have against people having a say what goes into their body?

    Isn’t it true that “Darwinists” believe that it’s OK to sleep with farm animals

    Questions like these are meant to put you on the defensive, making you pay more attention to the allegations the person is laying against you than their own arguments. All in the guise of “just asking harmless questions.”

  146. Rational Antivax
    November 26, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    the entire point of vaccination is disease prevention and control.

    Let’s have an example shall we? The varicella vaccine which causes primary varicella infection has a period of infectivity and thus secondary transmission for up 42 days after primary inoculation.

    You’re saying?

  147. Lara Lohne
    November 26, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    *Ignored*

  148. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    @Chris
    I didn’t come here to prove anything, I read the blog and the comments and had some questions, which dingo and lilday answered for me. You on the other hand, seem to only harras me, please don’t help me any further. I’ll ask any future questions I have to dingo and lilady who have been very helpful.

  149. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    *Ignored*

  150. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Kenny:

    That *Ignored* comment was not directed at you…it was directed at “Rational Antivax” which is one of the sockies that the Th1Th2 a.k.a. “Thingy” Troll uses to infiltrate science blogs.

    Again, I do apologize to you, because I made an assumption about your identity and your questions.

  151. dingo199
    November 26, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Exposure to natural prevention is of course completely feasible.
    All one has to do is make sure one’s kids stick to the sidewalk and they won’t get ill with any disease, ever, ever, ever.

  152. dingo199
    November 26, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Typo…. I meant “Avoiding exposure to natural infection” of course.

  153. Chris
    November 26, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Kenny, people who are seriously seeking real answers would not ask strangers on a blog. You, or better yet your wife, would be better off having a conversation in person with her primary health care provider. Who should have been the person who treated her when she had shingles, and perhaps the person who handed her the Vaccine Information Sheet.

  154. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    @Chris
    I wasn’t seeking “real” answers, there is no emergency here. As I said, I read the blog and the comments and got caught up in the conversation and asked some questions based on my own experience.

  155. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    @lilday
    Thank you – I know that was directed at me. Have a great night!

  156. Kenny
    November 26, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    WASN’T – wish I could type.

  157. November 26, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    @Kenny – evening to you as well. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

  158. lilady
    November 26, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    O/T I had a great Thanksgiving Day; I didn’t have to entertain hordes of relatives. It’s so nice to have a daughter who is willing to entertain her family and her in-laws.

    One more comment about the *1980* CDC “cut-off” for “assuming” that people born before that date are “immune” to chicken pox. The “assumption” of immunity is sorta based on the CDC recommendations for measles and mumps immunization, where the “cut-off” for *civilians* (born before 1957), who have no clinical contact with vulnerable people, in clinical settings:

    http://www.vaccines.gov/who_and_when/adults/index.html

    Measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccination

    “Adults born before 1957 generally are considered immune to measles and mumps. All adults born in 1957 or later should have documentation of 1 or more doses of MMR vaccine unless they have a medical contraindication to the vaccine, laboratory evidence of immunity to each of the three diseases, or documentation of provider-diagnosed measles or mumps disease. For rubella, documentation of provider-diagnosed disease is not considered acceptable evidence of immunity.”

    I hope that this clarifies the 1980 birth date “cut-off” for varicella and the 1957 birth date “cut-off” for measles and mumps for *civilians*.

  159. Quokka
    November 27, 2012 at 12:14 am

    Hi Kenny. Please hang around. Chris has always answered my questions and the whole gang of regulars here do a really important job of countering nonsense from trolls.

    Unfortunately sometimes it is difficult to tell who is genuine and who is baiting people at first.

    All of the regulars here including Chris have put with some extreme abuse from people that appear genuine at first with simple questions and then turn out to be ignorant, dangerous and regularly vile people.

    I have learnt a great deal from all of the regulars here and the visitors like yourself.

    Am not in America but hope you all had a good Thanksgiving Day

  160. Eleanor
    November 27, 2012 at 10:34 am

    And others have put up with some extreme abuse from Chris: remember how she was told by a higher-up last month that she was too mean, and needed to lighten up, and act more civil?

    Lil,
    Even though the cutoff dates of 1980 for chickenpox and 1957 for measles usually mean that those born before those dates have immunity from having had the natural disease, it doesn’t mean that everyone has, as in the instance of Kenny’s wife. Should it not be standard protocol to titer the blood of everyone before they get vaccines for diseases for which danger is increased if given to people with preexposure? Why isn’t it?

    Dingo,
    Since chickenpox is nearly always a mild disease, and since you admitted that the adverse events I described from VAERS were probably true (Chris would never have admitted that), should it not be a parent’s choice whether to run the risk of a usually mild disease or the risk of usually relatively safe, but sometimes devastatingly dangerous, vaccine?

    No one has mentioned that the original justification for the varicella vaccine nearly twenty years ago was to save an average of 1.5 work days when a parent had to stay home with a child sick with chickenpox. Everyone then was familiar with the disease, and virtually no one was afraid of it (just like with measles twenty years before that). Is that now considered too frivolous a reason to play with children’s health?

  161. November 27, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Welcome back again, cia, in yet another guise to tell the same old tales we’ve previously showed you were in error. I’d like you to introduce us to all these people who believed measles and chicken pox were nothing to fear? There is a huge difference between knowing something is inevitable and not fearing it. If there isn’t any way to prevent a disease from infecting your child, you kind of end up resigned to the fact that your child will get that infection, and you hope that your child isn’t one of those permanently injured from it or one that ends up dying from it. Vaccinations are about prevention of suffering, and still conferring immunity. They are also about disease elimination because if the vast majority of people are immune to the natural virus, then the virus cannot spread and will eventually die off. History has shown this to be true, multiple times. The risks from vaccines is significantly less than the risks of contracting the disease. Simple statistical averages tell us this, why is that so hard for you to grasp?

  162. November 27, 2012 at 11:19 am

    @lara – excellent point. There is a huge difference between inevitability & “not afraid of.”

    Parents had to accept the fact that their kids were going to get sick – measles, mumps, polio, chicken pox & all they could do was hope and pray that their child was one of the lucky ones that did not suffer from a permanent disability (like sterility, blindness, deafness or other complications we KNOW are caused by the disease).

    It is extremely disingenuous to claim that these diseases were either “mild” or “nothing to be afraid of” when history shows that the public reacted exactly the opposite (people lining up for vaccines when they were available, the push for more vaccines, etc).

    So, Eleanor / Cia / Parker/ whomever – please stop with the mis & disinformation….

  163. Chris
    November 27, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Eleanor/Cia:

    And others have put up with some extreme abuse from Chris: remember how she was told by a higher-up last month that she was too mean, and needed to lighten up, and act more civil?

    That is news to me. Please link to that statement where I was told to lighten up. I am curious how explaining that we do not accept unverifiable anecdotes at face value is mean.

    I did not say anything that was not also reiterated by others. We all explained that one could have had chicken pox and mistaken it for something else. There is no way for anyone to actually remember every little rash disease someone had as a child. That is not mean, it is just a clarification. If people like Kenny are seeking help, then he should not ask strangers on the internet. And if he then claims he was just joining the conversation he should then criticize those whose answers do not confirm what he thinks as being un-helpful and mean

    What is really mean and cruel is not preventing a child from getting a disease that causes up to two weeks of having dozens to hundreds of itchy open sores all over their body, with a very real chance of a secondary bacterial infection and other serious complications. Trying to brush it away as a mild disease or claiming the vaccine causes shingles without fully weighing the relative risk is the true evil.

  164. November 27, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    @Chris – looking back on it today, if I was required to suffer through measles, mumps, polio or even the Chicken Pox because my parents had been un-educated enough to be frightened by vaccines, I would be extremely angry with them.

    Making your child suffer for no reason is bad parenting…

  165. Kenny
    November 27, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    @Chris
    I am sorry, you did not clarify anything for me. I felt you were attacking me and harrassing me with a bad attitude. I still don’t know why? But others have made me feel welcome, so I guess it doens’t matter.

  166. lilady
    November 27, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Is CIA Parker posting under yet another ‘nym?

    She’s been busy posting under CIA Parker about her child’s *vaccine-induced-encephalitis* on another science blog. I’ve asked her which doctor (pediatric neurologist and/or infectious diseases specialist) made that diagnose. I’ve also asked her to detail the care her daughter received in an acute care hospital unit for *encephalitis*. She never replies.

    http://www.idsociety.org/uploadedFiles/IDSA/Guidelines-Patient_Care/PDF_Library/Encephalitis.pdf

    “Lil,
    Even though the cutoff dates of 1980 for chickenpox and 1957 for measles usually mean that those born before those dates have immunity from having had the natural disease, it doesn’t mean that everyone has, as in the instance of Kenny’s wife. Should it not be standard protocol
    to titer the blood of everyone before they get vaccines for diseases for which danger is increased if given to people with preexposure? Why isn’t it?”

    Whatever are you banging on about, CIA? I suggest that you take up that non-issue about titers drawn for every vaccine with the World Health Association, the CDC and every other country’s Departments of Health. I’m *certain* that these groups would be interested in your ignorant uneducated *opinions*.

    “And others have put up with some extreme abuse from Chris: remember how she was told by a higher-up last month that she was too mean, and needed to lighten up, and act more civil?”

    None of us recall a communication from “a higher up” about Chris…but then, none of us hear voices from G-d, CIA.

  167. Chris
    November 27, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Kenny:

    I felt you were attacking me and harrassing me with a bad attitude.

    Please quote exactly the part where I am actively harassing you. I only wished to clarify that there is really no way to know if someone had chicken pox, so I am baffled how that is indicative of a bad attitude. If I know where I offended you, then I can be more sensitive.

  168. dingo199
    November 27, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    Eleanor :
    Dingo,
    Since chickenpox is nearly always a mild disease, and since you admitted that the adverse events I described from VAERS were probably true (Chris would never have admitted that), should it not be a parent’s choice whether to run the risk of a usually mild disease or the risk of usually relatively safe, but sometimes devastatingly dangerous, vaccine?

    Cia/Elli/Eleanor,

    You clearly haven’t understood a word I have said about the risk benefit of this vaccine.

    Indeed parents have the right to choose. They also have the right to choose to let their kids ride bikes without helmets, play with matches, smoke, drink alcohol or have rampant unprotected sex. Please forgive me for pointing out that these things are not a great idea.

    The right to choose does not come with an automatic right to intelligence.

  169. dingo199
  170. lilady
    November 27, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    “Since chickenpox is nearly always a mild disease, and since you admitted that the adverse events I described from VAERS were probably true (Chris would never have admitted that), should it not be a parent’s choice whether to run the risk of a usually mild disease or the risk of usually relatively safe, but sometimes devastatingly dangerous, vaccine?”

    What a crock!

    Here for CIA and her sockies, two informative links to this “nearly always a mild disease/usually mild disease”.

    Tell that to this baby who has Congenital Varicella Syndrome, CIA:

    http://www.cmaj.ca/content/183/2/204.full

    “……Repeated sonographic examinations at 19 and 24 weeks of gestation were interpreted as showing bilateral clubfeet, with no other abnormality. Amniocentesis was not performed. At 32 weeks of gestation, ultrasonography showed intrauterine growth retardation, polyhydramnios and stippling of the fetal liver. An amniocentesis performed at that time was culture-negative for varicella virus, but results of polymerase chain reaction testing showed varicella-zoster DNA. No cytomegalovirus DNA was found in the amniotic fluid. Fetal cells showed a normal karyotype. No cause for the findings on ultrasound, other than likely congenital varicella syndrome, was found. Because of worsening intrauterine growth retardation, the baby was
    delivered by cesarean section at 36 weeks of gestation.

    The baby was born with bilateral clubfeet, partial aplasia of the right lower extremity, microgastria, severe reflux, an absent gag reflex and profound oral aversion (i.e., refusal to feed). Over the subsequent three years, she has had repeated episodes of aspiration pneumonia and has required feeding through gastrostomy and jejunostomy tubes, a permanent tracheostomy and 24-hour oxygen therapy. She has had multiple episodes of cutaneous zoster infection and of viral and bacterial pneumonia, requiring prolonged periods on a ventilator. She has had a gastric fundoplication and surgical repair of her clubfeet. Within the last six months before time of writing, she has been found to have partial defects of both cellular and humoural immunity, with antibody responses to protein antigens but not to polysaccharide antigens, and with selective defects in cellular immunity, including subnormal cellular response to varicella-zoster virus. She continues to be unable to handle oral food or oral secretions and has experienced apneic spells, some involving loss of consciousness. She has also had episodes of cyclic vomiting, lasting hours to days, which have not been responsive to medications. The child has learned to communicate by using sign language, and she has a vocabulary of 20 words…..”

    Tell that to these children and their parents, as well, CIA:

    http://www.immunize.org/photos/chickenpox-photos2.asp

    @ Dingo199: Great link to a great new informational booklet about vaccines. I’ve bookmarked it for further reference. Thanks.

  171. dingo199
    November 28, 2012 at 5:11 am

    YW Lilady.

    I have a new outlook since being convinced by Cia/Elli/Eleanor’s approach to life. Since travelling by car is “nearly always” associated with no injury or minor injury, I have abandoned the use of seatbelts for me and my family, and I laugh in the face of ABS, antilock brakes and airbags. No need for those on my car, thank you! …and have you not read stories about people injured in MVA’s by their seatbelts? I have. Dreadful concept.

  172. November 28, 2012 at 7:02 am

    @dingo – remember, the vast majority of car accidents aren’t fatal, and are in fact, “relatively mild.” In today’s world, people who drive see car accidents as merely inconvenient & shucks, if some people are critically injured, permanently disabled, or die in car accidents, well that’s the price we pay for “car driving freedom.”

  173. Rational Antivax
    November 28, 2012 at 10:17 am

    As has always been the case, vaccinators are stuck in a metaphor.

  174. November 28, 2012 at 10:26 am

    @Thingy – go back to your hole…..

  175. Rational Antivax
    November 28, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Lawrence,

    looking back on it today, if I was required to suffer through measles, mumps, polio or even the Chicken Pox because my parents had been un-educated enough to be frightened by vaccines, I would be extremely angry with them.

    Who said it’s a requirement?

    Again, you are stuck.

  176. Rational Antivax
    November 28, 2012 at 11:02 am

    You know vaccinators have abandoned science when they start using metaphors in the discussion.

    What a shame.

  177. November 28, 2012 at 11:08 am

    @Thingy – just because YOU don’t understand something, doesn’t make it not appropriate or on-point.

  178. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Dingo,
    Your analogy was not very good. Failure to wear a seat belt can lead to more serious injury in the case of a car wreck. Failure to get the natural disease chickenpox as a child can lead to getting it as an adult, when it can be more serious than it usually is in children. It used to be a universal childhood rite of passage, with protective effects in adulthood. While some people can get it more than once, this is very rare, most people only get it once (and we all agree that you can get shingles later whether from having had the disease or the shot). Having a car crash as a child does nothing to protect you from more serious car crashes sustained as an adult.

    Lawrence,
    I’m glad I had chickenpox and measles as a child. I suffered serious effects from the DPT, but I could not be angry with my parents for having taken me to get a lot of them: they were doing what everyone thought was the responsible thing for children at that time. I’m sure that if I had had children at that time, I would have done the same thing, but now, with a lot of knowledge they didn’t have then, I would not do it.

  179. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    I read yesterday that only 10-15% of people who had had chickenpox later develop shingles. It’s just a factoid, I had said my parents had never gotten shingles, but didn’t know this statistic, which means it’s relatively rare.

  180. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Lil,
    Of course the case you cite is a tragedy, but if the mother had had chickenpox as a child, as nearly everyone used to, she would not later have had a baby with congenital varicella syndrome. I’m not trying to blame anyone, but it’s another advantage to having the disease at the age when it is most natural to have it.
    You should not lose sight of the many tragedies that have occurred when children have reacted adversely to this (and many other) vaccines. A dead or permanently disabled person can from either the disease or the vaccine. A person who takes the vaccine as a child will have to live with the fear of the vaccine wearing off and the need for boosters the rest of his life. If he or his parents are really that afraid of chickenpox, then that would be an acceptable way of life for them. Many of us have had the disease and are not afraid of it (while realizing that, like all illnesses, it can sometimes be very severe or fatal). It comes down to your philosophy, whether you are very invested in the modern paradigm of better living through chemistry, or whether you distrust science and modern medicine (have you read Our Daily Meds?) and prefer to risk the vaccine-preventable diseases and use the remedies that you think are safe and effective should the diseases occur in your family. There’s no guaranteed positive outcome either way.

    Dr. Zibners,
    I’m looking forward to your reply, you seemed like an intelligent and reasonable person, who did not dismiss the problems associated with the vaccine out of hand (like some we know).

  181. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    Dingo,
    Where I live, the varicella vaccine was made mandatory for schoolchildren in 2005. Of course you can take an exemption from the vaccines, as many have, but the state is, in fact, trying to take away parents’ right to choose the vaccines they wish their children to get.

  182. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Chris,
    I think it’s counterproductive to dismiss Kenny’s report of his wife’s cases of shingles after the varicella vaccine as anecdotal. This is supposed to be a place where people come to talk about vaccines, not be given the fifth degree. People who read his report are probably going to believe him, why wouldn’t they? and see that those who react adversely to vaccines are going to be dismissed, their experience denied, by those who defend the vaccine program. And make them more likely to refuse vaccines, since they can imagine very well what it would be like to have a child react to a vaccine with asthma, autism, peanut allergy, or whatever, (and we all know that it happens pretty often nowadays) and then be told they are stupid or lying. Sympathetic listening would probably serve your purpose better.

  183. November 28, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    cia, Gish Gallop does not give your argument any more weight. Flooding the comments with inaccurate and misleading information is childish and counter productive. Not once in all those many comments have you provided any citation from a scientific stand point showing support of your position. It is mere conjecture, speculation and opinion and sorry but I will trust the decades of scientific data that we have showing vaccinations are far better for us then suffering through any disease. If suffering can be prevented and the disease eventually eliminated with high enough vaccination coverage, then that should be preferable to forcing children to suffer through diseases that have a much higher risk then any vaccine every did. That is just logical.

  184. Chris
    November 28, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Eleanor:

    I think it’s counterproductive to dismiss Kenny’s report of his wife’s cases of shingles after the varicella vaccine as anecdotal.

    How is it not an anecdote? Has been substantially verified? How is clarifying the uncertainty a “fifth degree”? Please directly quote where I am giving him the “fifth degree.”

    People who read his report are probably going to believe him, why wouldn’t they?

    Wait, there is a report? Did I miss the link to the PubMed indexed case report? That is something that is verifiable. Anecdotes are memories, and they are not verifiable (see end of comment). Otherwise, all we know is that he told the story, did not know about VAERS (which is why I gave him a link to the varicella vaccine vaccine information sheet) and unless his mother-in-law reported every single rash disease to her daughter’s doctor: there is no complete medical record. It is just as lilady said:

    If your wife’s physician relied on anecdotal information from her mother, rather than testing for presence of immunity before administering the varicella vaccine…”we will never know” if your wife’s shingles was caused by a prior case of chicken pox or the vaccine.

    (which is exactly what I said, but I am the one being targeted for pointing that out, which is odd)

    There are valid reactions to vaccines, and the instructions on how to report them are listed the Vaccine Information Sheet. Now if you have some actual verifiable documentation that full blown shingles is common after a varicella vaccine given to adults, then provide the title, journal and date of that PubMed indexed report.

    By the way, the fallibility of memory has been extensively studied. Look up the work of Elizabeth Loftus. Read the book Mistakes Were Made, But Not by Me by Carol Tavris and, Elliot Aronson. Especially the third chapter: “Memory, the Self-justifying Historian.” Anecdotes are memories, and often they are misremembered.

  185. dingo199
    November 28, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    @Elli/Eleanor/Cia,

    Again, for those struggling to comprehend, despite several iterations of the same facts (and I’ll not use metaphors since Thingy cannot even understand those):

    In the old days almost all kids got chickenpox (90%), and gained protective immunity (not always complete). They got the disease in childhood (which is safer than when catching it as an adult, but still poses a significant risk and rarely can cause death. Not all kids got it naturally, so some still got it as adults.

    Nowadays, kids don’t have to risk the complications of chickenpox – they can ALL have the vaccine, which although not completely harmless, is several orders of magnitude safer for them than catching the natural disease. These kids will not get chickenpox as adults – they also have protective immunity, which is as far as we can tell, just as effective as “natural” immunity. If kids get 2 doses of varicella vaccine, immunity will be at over 95%, so in theory reverting to your “old” ways will see MORE adults getting primary chickenpox, and see everyone who gets natural chickenpox -kids and adults alike- getting complications (which vaccinated kids would not get).

    Capiche?

    (I doubt it)

  186. lilady
    November 28, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    @ Eleanor/CIA Parker: Why didn’t you just link to page? I mean, why bother posting here, when everything you state is just a rehash of the *stuff* you post under your real name:

    http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/cynthia-parker/Profile?oid=2568859

  187. lilady
    November 28, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Here’s another of Cynthia Parker’s *gems* about the DPT booster she received…which caused her multiple sclerosis:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/vaccine-debate-rages-as-national-infant-immunization-week-approaches

    “I reacted to a DPT booster at 19 with both arms being paralyzed for two days, brachioplexal neuropathy, and later developed multiple sclerosis. I’m reading the book Age of Autism now, and have learned that M.S. did not exist before the age of heavy metals and vaccines started two hundred years ago. My symptoms of M.S., as well as my daughter’s symptoms of autism, are symptoms of mercury poisoning, a practice that went on under the guise of gold standard medical treatment (for syphilis, antiseptic use, teething powders, and vaccines) for over two hundred years.”

    See how easy that is Eleanor/CIA? You don’t need to provide citations about the *dangers* of vaccines. All you need provide are links to your comments.

    No need to thank me Eleanor/CIA…it is a labor of love to help you out.

  188. Eleanor
    November 28, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Well, that’s how it happened, Lil. My dorm roommate Karlene had to help me carry my tray, eat and dress for several days until the paralysis in both arms wore off. It started the same day as the shots I got at the student health center were given, one of them a tetanus booster, probably given as a DPT, but at that time I was very young and knew very little about vaccines, and just thought I should have a tetanus booster before I went to Mexico for the first time. I think that it started the process that culminated in my MS, diagnosed by Dr. Crowley at the university hospital by MRI. I’m feeling my way along, trying to understand what happened to me. I’m trying to chelate at home now starting six weeks ago with DMSA and ALA, hoping to get the mercury out and find relief from my symptoms.
    I really don’t care if you believe this anecdote or not, I believe it, I have no choice.

  189. dingo199
    November 28, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Vaccines do not cause MS, and MS is not amenable to chelation.

  190. lilady
    November 28, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    @ dingo199: She keeps posting that same pseudoscience about the hepatitis B vaccine on all the science blogs. I keep asking her which doctor diagnosed *vaccine-induced-encephalitis* in her child and what treatment was provided to her child in an acute care setting. Suddenly… Eleanor/CIA/Cynthia Parker just *disappears*. Why?

    I enjoy her posts for the sheer ludicrousness and inanities of her *diagnosis* of her child’s colic.

    Time to say ta-ta now, Eleanor/CIA Parker/Cynthia Parker….you’ve been busted….again.

  191. SRP
    November 29, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    Vaccines may very well be the cause of autoimmune diseases including MS.

    “Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host’s immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system’s self-organized criticality.”

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008382

  192. lilady
    November 29, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    “Vaccines may very well be the cause of autoimmune diseases including MS.”

    No CIA, Cynthia Parker and assorted sockies…vaccines do not *cause* MS or any other autoimmune diseases.

    You’re so busted CIA Parker.

  193. Chris
    November 29, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    SRP, that only shows it in mice. From that paper (emphasis added):

    In a perfectly reproducible experiments in which the mice not prone to autoimmune diseases were immunized repeatedly with antigen, we have unexpectedly and surprisingly discovered that overstimulation of immune system beyond its self-organized criticality inevitably leads to systemic autoimmunity.

    Now explain how that is equivalent to humans and the present pediatric vaccine schedule. Compare it to the number of antigens that a typical human encounters every day. Include breathing, bug bites, paper cuts, and other ways that humans encounter antigens.

  194. November 29, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    @Chris – yes, given that the human immune system deals with innumerable antigens, it is incredibly stupid to think that the very few antigens that are contained by the actual vaccines, spread out over the course of months (and years) would have any “overloading” effect.

  195. dingo199
    November 29, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    SRP :
    Vaccines may very well be the cause of autoimmune diseases including MS.
    “Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host’s immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system’s self-organized criticality.”
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008382

    This was the single paper presented from the supposed “hundreds” demonstrating a link between vaccination and autism by a different sockpuppet on another forum. The paper does not mention autism. It is now being used to suggest MS is caused by vaccines, but the immunology of MS is distict to the type of autoimmunity exemplified in this paper, and this paper provides only plausible mechanisms for autoimmunity from repeated “antigen” exposure and provides NO clinical evidence to support any autoimmunity from vaccines, never mind MS.

    In fact, the paper actually suggests that stimulation from measles antigen is responsible for much of the “autoimmunity”:

    the ability of certain antigens such as measles virus to cause autoimmunity may be due to their ability, in conjunction with its ability to present antigen, to overstimulate CD4+ and/or CD8+ T cells of certain hosts beyond integrity of their immune system. Living organisms are constantly exposed to a broad range of environmental antigens, as exemplified by the recent re-emergence of measles virus infection among a subpopulation of Japanese young adults who were not vaccinated against the virus.

    So this paper actually directly incriminates antigen exposures in the form of natural measles virus in the process, and points to lack of vaccination as the cause.

    In other words, the exact opposite of what Cia/Elli/her sockies would have us believe.

    Please vaccinate your kids, people.

  196. Addy
    December 2, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Dingo,

    You speak only from a stance of denying that vaccines can cause autoimmune disease, philosophically, and not scientifically. Mercury toxicity can cause paralysis, numbness, dizziness, and lack of balance, all of which are also symptoms of MS. Both my arms were paralyzed for a few days starting from the day I got a DPT booster and a typhoid shot for travel. I later developed MS, and in one attack some years ago, my left arm and leg became completely paralyzed for a month. I don’t think it can be categorically said that neither reaction had anything to do with the mercury in the shots I got at that time for travel and stored mercury from eight previous DPTs. The first one, as an infant, caused me to scream nonstop for several days. It would appear that I am either unusually sensitive to mercury in vaccines or to other components of the vaccines, and, if I have a reduced genetic ability to excrete the mercury, but store it instead, that could account for the MS developing later at a time when I encountered a viral trigger.

    When I first got MS, I read several books from the university med school library about it. Dr. Allyn Sher, the neurologist who saw me in the hospital at the time of the paralyzing attack referred to above, said I knew more about MS than he did. I recently read an article by the chemist Boyd Haley, who said in his article “Mercury Toxicity and Vaccine Injury,” “The toxin causing autism has a corresponding symptom: It also effectively and rapidly induces oxidative stress. Nothing is more effective than mercury at inducing oxidative stress, which is identified by exceptionally high mitochondrial dysfunction. Over 85 % of autistic children who have been tested have been diagnosed with such a dysfuntion. Boichemically, the exceptionally tight binding of mercury to the electron transporting system of mitochondria has been proven to cause high production of toxic chemical intermediates, leading to oxidative stress and to many of the biochemical abnormalities found most often in children with autism.”

    Haley was talking about autism. But when I read that, I thought about my extreme constant fatigue since being diagnosed with MS, a disabling fatigue shared by all MS patients, who are said to have only one third to one half of the energy of a normal person. The books I read agreed on this symptom, but said no one knew what the cause of it might be. The mitochondria are responsible for cracking open the nutrients from food to release its stored energy for use by the body: if stored mercury from vaccines is tightly bound to the electron transporting system of mitochondria, that could account for the inability of people with MS to produce a normal amount of energy from the food they eat.

    I think this would be a fruitful line of scientific inquiry, and I would like to ask Dr. Zibners if she does not think that this is a plausible hypothesis.

  197. December 2, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    @Addy / cia / parker / et. al – you do know the difference between elemental mercury & a compound, right? Because by what you posted above, it really doesn’t look like you do.

  198. December 2, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    Cia, oxidative stress is caused by eating too many of the wrong kind of carbohydrates and fats and stressing your body. It is not caused from vaccines and there is no toxin shown to cause autism. Therefore the sources you are citing are irrelevant. Besides, the discussion here is not about your MS and your theories about why you have it, the topic is about chicken pox vaccine and some people being concerned about it shedding. Please try to keep to the topic. If you can’t, then perhaps it’s time you took your rants elsewhere. The fact that you have yet again assumed another identity shows you’ve been banned again for using sock puppets and being off topic.

  199. lilady
    December 2, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    “Addy” is the addled CIA Parker a.k.a. Cynthia Parker and dozens of sockies.

    CIA…get some professional psychological help for your emotional problems, so that you effectively parent your child who is autistic. Your trollish behaviors on this blog and other science blogs are atrocious.

  200. dingo199
    December 2, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Addy :
    Dingo,
    You speak only from a stance of denying that vaccines can cause autoimmune disease, philosophically, and not scientifically.

    No I don’t really. Evidence for vaccine induced autoimmune disease is scanty, and there is no reputed link between DTP vaccine and MS.
    Info:.
    http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf
    Not that for a moment I think you can understand it.
    http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d5956

    Mercury toxicity can cause paralysis, numbness, dizziness, and lack of balance, all of which are also symptoms of MS.

    Clearly haven’t got a clue, have you?
    Any idea how many other clinical illnesses manifest with such non-specific neurological symptoms? Are you saying mercury toxicity is the cause of all of them too? Guess you are.

    Dr. Allyn Sher, the neurologist who saw me in the hospital at the time of the paralyzing attack referred to above, said I knew more about MS than he did.

    Mmm, quite an expert then. But a pity you think mercury toxicity causes “oxidative stress” which causes MS.

  201. dingo199
    December 3, 2012 at 6:45 am

    You speak only from a stance of denying that vaccines can cause autoimmune disease, philosophically, and not scientifically. Mercury toxicity can cause paralysis, numbness, dizziness, and lack of balance, all of which are also symptoms of MS.

    No, there is plenty of evidence that vaccines are involved to a very limited extent in triggering autoimmunity that results in clear-cut autoimmune disease. Some inflammatory polyneuropathies (eg GBS) are the most obvious example. MS is a demyelinating process that involves autoimmunity, but the only vaccines ever linked to this have been Hep B and even then the evidence is inconsistent and inconclusive. I don’t say that, the science does.

    Dr. Allyn Sher, the neurologist who saw me in the hospital at the time of the paralyzing attack referred to above, said I knew more about MS than he did.

    Quite the neurology expert, aren’t you?
    No doubt you will fully understand this article then, which I think quite simply and clearly puts the problems into their scientific and clinical context:
    http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf

  202. December 3, 2012 at 7:04 am

    Oh, and Addy, just to pick up on your slur against me on not thinking scientifically…. You commented that mercury toxicity can have symptoms of paralysis, numbness, dizziness, and lack of balance, and arrive at the conclusion that because MS can also have these symptoms, that mercury is the causal agent for MS?

    You do realize how ridiculous and “unscientifically” unsound this conclusion is, don’t you?

    Firstly, mercury toxicity causes many other quite typical neurological symptoms and signs that are not characteristic of MS.
    Secondly, MS has many clinical features that have never been recorded with mercury toxicity.
    Thirdly, if you think that having a few symptoms “in common” is a good, rational scientific basis for jumping to the conclusion that any association is causal, then I guess you won’t have a problem concluding all the following disorders (which may also cause paralysis, numbness, dizziness, and lack of balance) are also due to mercury:
    Panic attacks
    Vitamin B12 deficiency
    Stroke
    Transient ischemic attack
    Cerebral tumors
    Intracranial hemmorhage
    Encephalitis
    Acoustic neuroma
    Vestibulitis….

    These are just some I pulled out of my medical head.
    But then seeing as you know more about MS than do specialist neurologists, I am sure you will correct my clearly flawed logic on these.

  203. Lara Lohne
    December 3, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    dingo, be careful. If I know cia, she will take what you said and use that as additional ammunition for her argument and start saying she read on a pro-vaccine blog that mercury toxicity causes all those things. That’s what she does, and many others who are anti-vaccine. They cherry pick and twist words around to suit their purpose.

  204. December 13, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Hello, i think that i saw you visited my blog so i came to “return the
    favor”.I am trying to find things to improve my website!
    I suppose its ok to use some of your ideas!!

  205. December 13, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Spammer alert above.

  206. January 20, 2013 at 1:14 am

    Having read this I thought it was extremely enlightening.

    I appreciate you taking the time and effort to put
    this information together. I once again find myself spending a lot of time both reading and posting comments.

    But so what, it was still worthwhile!

  207. July 19, 2013 at 4:59 am

    Vaccines have never prevented anything, apart from health, sanity and common sense.
    http://www.healthsentinel.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=8&Itemid=55

    In fact, vaccines don’t prevent, but cause ill-health. Apart from the usual reactions, illnesses and disorders vaccines cause, the chickenpox vaccine is causing a shingles epidemic in children and the elderly.
    http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx

    It’s up to every parent to decide what if any vaccinations their child should have, but there is NO WAY I would let anyone with a chickenpox vaccine or any other vaccine for that matter come near me or any child of mine, especially as vaccines now clearly cause far more harm than the diseases they allegedly (but in fact do not) prevent and vaccine-free children are by way healthier than their vaccine-poisoned peers.
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/My-childs-vaccine-reaction/372638272814622

  208. July 19, 2013 at 5:52 am

    @Erwin – and you wonder why people don’t take you seriously………

  209. Chris
    July 19, 2013 at 11:54 am
  210. July 19, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    @Chris – here is even more fuel to the fire…..

    http://www.mycolleaguesareidiots.com/archive/2010/02/24/459.aspx

    If you’re going to quote someone, make sure you aren’t quoting a lunatic.

  211. Mike
    July 19, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    I take Erwin very seriously. He is awesome! Keep up the good work Erwin!!

  212. July 19, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    @Mike – wow, just……wow.

  213. Mike
    July 19, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    I say WOW to you Lawrence….stooping down into the gutter posting BS Slandering links and lies is really an all time low here. Lowest of the low Lawrence. It’s really to bad you can’s support your views with science and evidence and instead have to slander people. No respect for you Lawrence. You show your true colors and I am glad that you do for all to see.

  214. Lawrence
    July 19, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    @Mike – given the kinds of things that particular individual supports, I am surprised that you defend him. Unless you agree with him, in regards to his other views….so Mike, do you?

  215. Mike
    July 19, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    I have no idea what his “other” views are Lawrence. The links you posted are not credible. They are obviously people out to slander his name. Come on Lawrence, you know better then to site sources like that.

  216. Lawrence
    July 19, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    @mike – so you deny historical facts and verbatim screenshots?

  217. Chris
    July 19, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    So, Mike, you think it is okay dokay to post anti-vaccine comments on a memorial page of a child who died from a vaccine preventable disease. Well, that is all we have to know about you. Thanks.

  218. Gray Falcon
    July 20, 2013 at 1:01 am

    I’m wondering if this is the same guy who asked us to prove diseases are more dangerous than vaccines, and then claimed, after seeing enough evidence to convince any rational person, that we didn’t prove anything.

  219. Chris
    July 20, 2013 at 11:24 am

    He reminds me of a “Joe Sock.”

  220. January 22, 2014 at 6:36 am

    If your preferred fruit isn’t in season, use a package of frozen fruit with its syrup.
    These “smoothies” are used in lieu of meals during the day.
    1 ripe banana 1 tablespoon of honey (not for children under 1).

  221. May 5, 2014 at 5:15 pm

    Мagnifique post, une fois de plus

  1. January 8, 2013 at 9:32 am
  2. January 8, 2013 at 11:07 am
  3. August 13, 2013 at 10:16 am
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