Home > Get Involved, Preventable Diseases > Global Poverty Project and The End of Polio

Global Poverty Project and The End of Polio

July 17, 2012

Global efforts to rid the world of polio have delivered incredible results in the last 60 years:

  • The number of polio cases worldwide has been dramatically reduced by 99% (representing a drop from 350,000 cases to 650).
  • More than 2 billion children have been immunized, and more than 8 million have been saved from life-long paralysis or death.
  • The number of polio-endemic countries has been reduced from 125 to 3.
  • In January, the world reached a remarkable milestone in the fight to eradicate polio – 12 months without a case of polio in India for the first time in history.

However, the disease continues to threaten children in some of the world’s poorest communities, and as of 2012, remains endemic in 3 countries: Nigeria, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Progress towards eradication is currently at risk, with the critical work of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative constrained by a funding gap of almost $1 billion for 2012-2013.

Polio is an acute, viral disease spread from person to person. It invades the nervous system and can cause irreversible paralysis and even death. It is highly infectious, and can have debilitating impacts. While it can strike anyone, at any age, the disease mainly affects children under five years old. It is imperative that we rid the world of this disease as soon as possible.

That’s why the Global Poverty Project is working with partners to support the Global Polio Eradication Initiative, and make the end of polio a reality. We have already had some incredible achievements in this fight, but there is still a ways to go to reach complete global eradication – and we need your support to get there.

As our video below highlights, we are building a global movement to end polio. We believe that together, we can be part of the generation to see an end to this disease. To do this, we need your support.

We can all play a role in ensuring that polio is completely eradicated.

This year, we’re calling on delegates to the United Nations General Assembly to announce further funding for polio eradication, to help close the funding gap that’s currently leaving millions of children vulnerable.

The End of Polio campaign is:

  • Asking you to demonstrate your support by signing The End of Polio petition.
  • Meeting with key decision-makers to ask our governments to give to the GPEI and commit to realizing the end of polio.
  • Sharing the remarkable stories of progress in fighting polio through the media and online.
  • Holding events to demonstrate support for ending polio.

We have proved that the eradication of polio is possible – please join us in the final push, and become part of the generation to see an end to polio.

Thank you.

Dorothy McGonigal

Global Poverty Project

  1. Lawrence
    July 17, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    We’re 10 years behind the original eradication goal – it is definitely within reach, so let’s push to get this done!!!!

  2. ella
    July 17, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Just remember that the polio vaccine (live oral) caused 35,000 children in India to become paralyzed AFTER getting the vaccine in India last year.

  3. Lawrence
    July 17, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    @ella – why aren’t you happy that we’ll be able to discontinue the Polio vaccine once we eradicate the disease?

    Also, if you read about those “35,000” cases the vast majority have come from better surveillance and have nothing to do with vaccination.

    Why are you so disease friendly? Isn’t eradication good, so we can have less vaccines?

  4. Chris
    July 17, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    ella :
    Just remember that the polio vaccine (live oral) caused 35,000 children in India to become paralyzed AFTER getting the vaccine in India last year.

    That sounds very strange, since India had its last polio case in January 2011. Perhaps you should find better sources of information, ella.

  5. lilady
    July 17, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    @ Ella:

    * Citations (desperately) needed about the polio vaccine causing 35,000 cases of paralysis in India last year.

    * From reputable sources

  6. ella
    July 19, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/cities/thiruvananthapuram/rise-paralysis-cases-after-polio-vaccine-234
    This article in the Indian newspaper The Deccan Chronicle reports on the 47,500 cases of flaccid non-polio paralysis caused in children vaccinated for polio. Dr. Jacobs says in it that he believes it may be because other virus strains have occupied the place formerly taken by the polio virus, and that eradication of polio is a mirage. So yeah, maybe polio might be eradicated, but just as many vaccinated people may become completely paralyzed anyway. Read the article, Lawrence. Doctors in India, who would know more about it than you, believe it is because of the poliio vaccine, and not because of better surveillance. Sort of like new serotypes of meningitis and HPV multiplying to fill the niche left by the eradication of similar viruses by vaccines.

  7. Chris
    July 19, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Thank you. It did lead me to the original paper. Note that it is called “non-polio acute flaccid paralysis.” It is an inherent problem with both the OPV, and the methods used. It is also a legitimate criticism of the program this article is about.

    Though I am a bit baffled by this “it could be like smallpox” argument:

    Poliovirus cannot be declared extinct because the sequence of its genome is known and modern biotechnology allows it to be resurrected at any time in vitro. Man can thus never let down his guard against poliovirus. Indeed the 18-year-old global eradication campaign for polioviruses will have to be continued in some format forever.

    Hopefully, India will succeed in getting IPV to replace OPV use. It is also something I heard about a few years ago.

  8. lilady
    July 20, 2012 at 2:25 am

    Here you go Ella:

    India’s last case of wild polio occurred in 2011 and in 2012 it was declared “polio free”:

    http://www.polioeradication.org/Infectedcountries/India.aspx

    There are still cases of wild polio, however that are monitored and reported on, weekly.:

    http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Poliothisweek.aspx

    We still are fighting anti-vaccine groups and individuals here, who claim that all cases of acute flaccid paralysis are caused by the oral polio vaccine…when we have current reports of the scant number of AFP cases caused by the vaccine:

    http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/diseases/poliomyelitis/afpextract.cfm

  9. Alicia
    July 20, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    There are many cases of polio being renamed as Acute flaccid paralysis and other such names. Just like many other diseases once thought to be controlled by vaccination. Don’t fall for it. Just because they reclassify cases of “polio” doesn’t mean it is eradicated. If that is the case, then maybe polio wasn’t such a bad deal in the first place. Maybe these other diagnoses were what these previous cases were. These paid for by pharma studies, scientists and websites would have you believe it is from the vaccines but when you see the increase in cases of AFP in direct correlation with the “eradication” of polio you start seeing the truth. Polio is scary, AFP “is unfortunate”.

  10. Chris
    July 20, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Alicia, citation needed.

  11. Lawrence
    July 20, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    @Alicia – when you are looking for signs of Polio, you’re going to start running across of lot of AFP, especially in a population as large as India, that aren’t actually Polio.

    Again, why are you so against disease eradication? Don’t you want to have us not need the Polio vaccine anymore? Doesn’t this directly contradict your ideas about “big pharma?” If we eradicate the disease, no more vaccines & no more profit, right?

  12. ella
    July 24, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    In the early 1950s, vaccination with the DPT was suspended during outbreaks of polio in any given area, because it greatly increased the incidence of cases of polio. It may be that vaccination for polio depresses the immune system in a similar way, allowing other kinds of paralyzing non-polio to take a hold in cases where it otherwise would not. Or it may be, as Alicia noted, that cases of polio are again being given a different name to conceal the fact that the vaccine didn’t work the way it was supposed to. Or it may be that taking the polio virus out of an environment leaves a niche which is then filled with other similar diseases. And, as with all diseases in the Third World, the background of poor sanitary measures combined with poor nutritional status in the population, makes many diseases more common and more severe.

    Sister Kenny had a very high success rate of helping patients with polio recover, but since her methods did not require drugs or technology, they have not been pursued by the medical industry. But in poor countries like India, it would be of immeasurable benefit to train nurses to implement the Australian nurse Kenny’s methods.

  13. lilady
    July 24, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    Again, your *opinions* (“It may be that……”), and your agreement with Alicia about the renaming of polio to “acute flaccid paralysis”, really don’t count here. Unless, of course, you and Alicia are willing to provide citations.

  14. Chris
    July 24, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    ella, again, citation needed. If you have the citations that Alicia was using, then please present them. Medical knowledge has increased substantially in the last sixty years. That includes testing the body fluids of the sick person to determine the presence of polio, including a particular strain. So the “renaming” argument is woefully outdated.

    And Sister Kenny died before there was a polio vaccine, but the Sister Kenny Foundation supported the use of the polio vaccines, since they knew prevention is better than treatment.. Her methods were forms of physical therapy, which is still in use. My son received OT/PT services as part of his IEP when he was in a special ed. preschool and elementary school.

    The blatant errors in your opinions, ella, is why you need to provide verifiable citations for your statement.

  15. lilady
    July 24, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Alicia and Ella:

    Here…I found the PubMed citations for the differential diagnoses of acute flaccid paralysis (all 364 citations). See if you can find any citations for diagnostic substitution of polio into acute flaccid paralysis…

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=differential%20diangnosis%20acute%20flacid%20paralysis

  16. July 28, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Funny, in Spain all 30 cases of Acute Flaccid Paralysis in 2010 (called “polio” before 1960) were “correctly vaccinated” (sic)with 3 or more doses of oral polio vaccine (see page 9 of the report).

    http://dgsp.san.gva.es/DgspPortal/docs/Inf_Polio_2010ESP.pdf

    These shills don’t even contemplate the possibility of the vaccine itself being the cause, in spite of numerous documented precedents, since even the CDC admits that all 54 cases of polio since 1990 in the US were caused by the vaccine itself! Here is the report (pages 2 and 3, Fig. 1):

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/3rd-edition-chpt10_polio.pdf

    Informed parents know the only real risk of polio today in the West comes from exposure to the vaccine.

  17. July 28, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    lilady :
    Alicia and Ella:
    Here…I found the PubMed citations for the differential diagnoses of acute flaccid paralysis (all 364 citations). See if you can find any citations for diagnostic substitution of polio into acute flaccid paralysis…
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=differential%20diangnosis%20acute%20flacid%20paralysis

    Acute Flaccid Paralysis is a term which applies to the exact clinical symptoms you would expect to see from poliovirus infection, therefore no differential diagnosis was possible before the advent of serological poliovirus tests in the late 60’s.

    Since the serological definition is much more restrictive than the previous clinical AFP definition, it is just logical that the definition change caused a “miraculous” drop of incidence, a drop the pharma maffia attributes to tits vaccines.

    How were polio cases counted in 1954? most health departments worked with the WHO definition:

    “…Signs and symptoms of nonparalytic poliomyelitis with the addition of partial or complete paralysis of one or more muscle groups, detected on two examinations at least 24 hours apart.” [See page 88 of "The Present Status of Polio Vaccines (a panel discussion), Illinois Medical Journal, August, 1960."]

    This is incredibly wide-reaching, it englobes all AFP cases and accounts for the false “polio virus epidemic”. By 1960, in order to be defined as “poliomyelitis”, virus tests on stool samples were required.

    “… Thus, simply by changes in diagnostic criteria, the number of paralytic cases was predetermined to decrease whether or not any vaccine was used…” [see page 88 of " The Present Status of Polio Vaccines (a panel discussion), Illinois Medical Journal, August, 1960."]

    So the old epidemic of 50’s “polio” is far from gone thatnsk to the vaccines, but rather RENAMED as AFP and swept under the carpet by a sleight-of-hand definition change!

  18. novalox
    July 28, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    @putinreloaded

    [citation needed]

  19. July 28, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    novalox :
    @putinreloaded
    [citation needed]

    Now the pro-vax ytrategy is to play dumb and ignore the citations given, as if they hadn’t seen them (do they actually read their opponents?)

    [See page 88 of "The Present Status of Polio Vaccines (a panel discussion), Illinois Medical Journal, August, 1960."]

    [see page 88 of " The Present Status of Polio Vaccines (a panel discussion), Illinois Medical Journal, August, 1960."]

  20. novalox
    July 28, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    @putinreloaded

    You do know that throwing ad hominems is considered a tacit admission that one’s argument is utterly unsound, right.

    And you also do know that the citation is over 60 years old. I think that a lot of progress has been made up in that time.

    But then again, since you threw out the ad hominems en force, you admit that your argument is unsound.

    But please, try harder with the attempts at insults. I’ve heard worse from children.

  21. Chris
    July 28, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Citations from 1960 are not relevant to diagnosing polio or non-polio acute flaccid paralysis in an era where there are tests that can even tell what particular polio strain caused the infection. Plus you just quoted, your forgot to provide a proper citation in your comment.

  22. July 28, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    novalox :
    @putinreloaded

    Isn’t pretending your opponet ommited citations a form of “ad himinem”? Useless provocation seems to be your only value in thes forum.

  23. July 28, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Chris :
    Citations from 1960 are not relevant to diagnosing polio or non-polio acute flaccid paralysis in an era where there are tests that can even tell what particular polio strain caused the infection.

    Historical changes in the definition are relavent to discuss how the 50’s epidemic magically “disappeared” by the advent of the vaccines …. NOT, but rather due the restriction in the definition.

  24. novalox
    July 28, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    @putinrelaoded

    More ad homiems now? Resorting to trying to refactoring quotes to support your position?

    Yawn, you really need to work on trolling, but you amuse me at your attempts.

  25. Chris
    July 28, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    putinreloaded, I apologize, I did not read up far up enough. But still, there is a reason that the oral polio vaccine is no longer used in the USA and other countries. In the USA that is because of one parent who helped make that change: John Salamone.

    Perhaps Spain should join the rest of the developed world and switch to the IPV.

  26. July 28, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    This is the bedtime story the pharma dogs are selling to push their paralysis vaccines:

    http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1985/1/1985_1_54.shtml

    “…in seven years the Salk vaccine reduced the incidence of polio in the United States by more than 96 percent, from 38,476 reported cases in 1954 to 1,312 in 1961.”

    We saw how the 1954 WHO definition of “polio” incuded all cases of Acute Flaccide Paralysis. With the subsequente diagnostic restrictions in 1955 and the further restrictions with the advent of serological testing it is obvious that incidence could only go, by simple redefinition without the need of any “miraculous” vaccine (that we already saw is the only cause of polio in the Western world today).

    http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19612704747.html;jsessionid=423213B1C921051E3DB3F09D3F96D04E;jsessionid=F232BFB34E4258CAF8FA26D34CBA7414

    The Present Status of Polio Vaccines.

    Illinois Medical Journal 1960, Sept Vol. 118 No. 3 pp. 19 pp.

    “…Thus, simply by changes in diagnostic criteria, the number of paralytic cases was predetermined to decrease in 1955-1957, whether or not any vaccine was used. At the same time, the number of nonparalytic cases was bound to increase because any case of poliomyelitis-like disease which could not be classified as paralytic poliomyelitis according to the new criteria was classified as nonparalytic poliomyelitis. Many of these cases, although reported as such, were not non-paralytic poliomyelitis. …”

  27. July 28, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Chris :
    putinreloaded, I apologize, I did not read up far up enough. But still, there is a reason that the oral polio vaccine is no longer used in the USA and other countries. In the USA that is because of one parent who helped make that change: John Salamone.
    Perhaps Spain should join the rest of the developed world and switch to the IPV.

    Perhaps the world should abandon the Middle Ages and stop treating the HEALTHY for a disease that was wrongly diagnosed and attibuted to a virus by ignorance and lack of proper testing in the first place.

    Acute Flacid Paralysis (the original “polio” that terrorized the world and falsely justified the vaccine) persists and there is no vaccine!

  28. Chris
    July 28, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    I found a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630745/?tool=pubmed"paper on polio in Spain in English. It looks like Spain only adopted the oral polio vaccine in 2004, about fifty years after the rest of Europe and the Americas (actually, I believe they had the vaccine before, it looks like a mistranslation).

    From what I can read in putinloaded Spanish cite (two years of high school Spanish), they are going over the problems with OPV, and the risk of switching to IPV. They started to vaccinate in the 1960s, There are cases of paralysis, but there is a mention of meningitis. It looks like it is evaluating the risks of switching to IPV with the chance of imported polio.

  29. Chris
    July 28, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Acute Flacid Paralysis can be caused by other diseases. And I wonder about your reading of history if you think this is anything like the Middle Ages.

  30. July 28, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Chris :
    It looks like Spain only adopted the oral polio vaccine in 2004, about fifty years after the rest of Europe and the Americas (actually, I believe they had the vaccine before, it looks like a mistranslation).

    Well you pro-vaxers go on and on about years of “established reserch” and now, after 6 decades of “safe and miraculous” polio vaccine you admit it needs to be replaced because it causes… POLIO!

    How do you expect intelligent people to trust your industry, Chris? The vaccine business is a lemon, not with my kids!

    Now you propose to start using the IPV so that after 6 more decades of business it is found out – via the subrepticious “clinical trials” called mass vaccinations – that is causes something worse?

    Vaccines have no proper clinical trials. This is a plain admitted by the pro-vaxers, who justify their noisy absence by resorting to the “ethical” trump card… while in the same breath imposing unsafe mass vaccinations on healthy kids .

  31. lilady
    July 28, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Hey Putin…why should we believe anything you say, when you *rely on* ancient articles about vaccines, when you attempt to undermine public health, and the worldwide efforts to eradicate polio.

    BTW, I’d love to hear about your *credentials*

    – Your university-conferred degree in any science field

    – Your professional licensing in any health care field

    – Your actual work experience in any heath care field, or in any of the sciences

  32. July 28, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    lilady :
    Hey Putin…why should we believe anything you say, when you *rely on* ancient articles about vaccines

    When you make ancient claims, such as the elimination of polio in the 60’s you need ancient documents to know what really happened, what was being diagnosed and how… unless you pretend modern diagnostics work retroactively :D

  33. July 28, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    lilady :
    BTW, I’d love to hear about your *credentials*

    You should only be concerned about the credentials of the authors of the citations I provided, and that expose vaccines as an unscientific BELIEF system.

  34. lilady
    July 28, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Still waiting for YOUR *credentials*, putin.

    I suspect you have no *credentials* and you are just a crank blogger.

  35. Lawrence
    July 28, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    @putin – so care to explain what happened to Smallpox & Rinderpest?

  36. July 29, 2012 at 6:43 am

    lilady :
    Still waiting for YOUR *credentials*, putin.
    I suspect you have no *credentials* and you are just a crank blogger.

    Pharma dogs are allways fallacious, but you’re double: ad hominem & ad autoritatem.

  37. July 29, 2012 at 6:58 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – so care to explain what happened to Smallpox & Rinderpest?

    There were no scientific papers and no peer review at the time of the smallpox epidemics, so it’s anyone’s guess.

    However, there are chronicles from intellectuals the size of Bernard Shaw:

    “…At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccination than by smallpox.
    —George Bernard Shaw 1929

    Interestingly, it is also intelligent people to day who refuse to vaccinate their kids:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html?_r=1

    “… While the picture of an unvaccinated child was once that of the offspring of poor and uneducated parents, “exempters” are often well educated and financially stabl…”

  38. July 29, 2012 at 7:12 am

    Smallpox still exists in Africa and the US today, but the WHO has changed its nme to “monkeypox” to save face for having (wrongly) annouced “mission accomplished”:

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/monkeypox/factsheet2.htm

    “…Is there monkeypox in the United States?
    In early June 2003, monkeypox was reported among several people in the United States. Most of these people got sick after having contact with pet prairie dogs that were sick with monkeypox. This is the first time that there has been an outbreak of monkeypox in the United States.

    Monkypox and Smallpox are the same, because the CDC uses the same vaccine for both denominations:

    “… In the United States the smallpox vaccine is the only FDA-approved treatment for smallpox and monkeypox. ….”

    Smallpox has always been caused by the vaccine, the following statement proves this:

    “… due to the high rate of serious adverse effects, the vaccine will only be made available to the CDC (a part of the United States Department of Health and Human Services) for the Strategic National Stockpile….”

    What are exactly those “serious adverse effects”? smallpox itself! but to hide this fact smallpox caused by a vaccine is given yet a different name: Eczema vaccinatum, which is an exact replica of smallpox:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eczema_vaccinatum

    “…Eczema vaccinatum is a rare severe adverse reaction to smallpox vaccination. It is characterized by serious local or disseminated, umbilicated, vesicular, crusting skin rashes in the face, neck, chest, abdomen, upper limbs and hands…. Other signs and symptoms include fever and facial and supraglottic edema. The condition may be fatal if severe and left untreated. Survivors are likely to have some scarring (pockmarks)….”

    Eczema vaccinatum is SMALLPOX, monkeypox is SMALLPOX, the reality of a vaccination-induce epidemic is being swept under the carpet by the crude trick of SHIFTING NAMES.

  39. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 7:16 am

    @putin – keep making yourself look ridiculous.

  40. July 29, 2012 at 7:31 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – keep making yourself look ridiculous.

    Incredibly intelligent, well documented and elaborated ad hominem argument!

    Unbiased readers long know who’s being ridiculous, save your patronizing efforts.

  41. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Smallpox / MonkeyPox, yeah that sounds more like it… probably from the monkey stem cell virus’s that they inject into babies! The worst thing is it has been well documented that HIV /AIDs came from Monkey’s!

    Vaccines don’t eradicate anything they are only making disease worse..just look at the world.

    Vaccines are being linked CANCER!

  42. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Lilady, there have been many Neuroscientists, Doctors, Phd’s, & specialists that have all stepped up to speak out about dangers of Vaccines… SO WHY DO YOU NEED SOMEONES CREDENTIALS ON THIS SITE, when you still dismiss some of the findings & research from top neuroscientists.

    We would like to your credentials thanks..

  43. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 9:11 am

    @sammy – yes, horrible that we have a higher standard of living and a greater life expectancy than anytime in the history of human civilization.

    Horrible that parents no longer have to conceive multiple children just to guarantee that at least some might reach adulthood.

    And amazing how hundreds of thousands of individuals and hundreds of organizations, governments, etc could be convinced to be part of some worldwide conspiracy to hide diseases.

    What is more profitable, preventing disease or treating it?

    It is entirely more logical to accept that, with the elimination do many childhood diseases, that it would be easier to start seeing more chronic conditions that always existed, but were masked by the much higher incidence of communicable diseases (plus, medical science would have been hard pressed to identify most chronic conditions, including Cancer) before the use of modern medical technology.

    Keep believing your conspiracies…the rest of us will review the actual science.

  44. July 29, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Sammy :
    Vaccines are being linked CANCER!

    There are indeed suspicions that suppression of acute infections during childhood increases the risk of getting cancer as an adult:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16490323

    ” RESULTS: Exposures to febrile infectious childhood diseases were associated with subsequently reduced risks for melanoma, ovary, and multiple cancers combined, significant in the latter two groups…. Overall, risk reduction increased with the frequency of infections, with febrile infections affording the greatest protection. In contrast to acute infections, chronic infections can be viewed as resulting from a failed immune response and an increasing number have been associated with an elevated cancer risk.

    CONCLUSION: Infections may play a paradoxical role in cancer development with chronic infections often being tumorigenic and acute infections being antagonistic to cancer. …”

    So even if vacciens worked, you’d be trading a mild child disease for a deadly cancer. Vaccines are a WILDCARD, don’t play russian roulette with your kids!

  45. July 29, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Lawrence :
    @sammy – yes, horrible that we have a higher standard of living and a greater life expectancy than anytime in the history of human civilization.

    However, your “highest standard of living” USA ranks 33 in infant mortality rate … and all is pointing to the number of vaccine doses being pushed into (formerly) healthy children:

    Sept 2011 – Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?

    Source: Human & Experimental Toxicology

    “…The US childhood immunization schedule requires 26 vaccine doses for infants aged less than 1 year, the most in the world, yet 33 nations have better IMRs. Using linear regression, the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined and a correlation coefficient of 0.70 (p < 0.0001) was found between Infant Mortality Rates and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants….”

    0.70 is a hell of a correltion factor, dear shill!

    Nutrition, hygene and caring is all a child needs to thrive… Evolution is a lot older and wiser than vaccines!

  46. July 29, 2012 at 9:27 am

    Lawrence :
    What is more profitable, preventing disease or treating it?

    Vaccines are keeping alive diseases that should long be extinct, such as polio, whose 54 cases in the USA since 1990 hve ALL been acknowledged by the CDC as induced by the vaccine (See pages 2 and 3, Fig. 1 of the CDC report: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/3rd-edition-chpt10_polio.pdf )

    My flood of references proves that vaccines prevent nothing, instead they’re causing the illnesses they pretend to prevent and a lot more…

  47. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 9:29 am

    Lawrence, Your idea of science is actually becoming embarrassing, REAL science takes all into consideration.. not just one sided to support an agenda.

    Putin – this is Sad but true on vaccine links to Cancer!

    Babies truly need to build there own immunity.. naturally!

  48. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 9:33 am

    @sammy & putin – you have both shown yourselves to be hypocrites of the highest order. You claim that we should look at “both sides” but you reject, out of hand, all evidence that does not support your own conclusions.

  49. July 29, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Lawrence :
    @sammy & putin – you have both shown yourselves to be hypocrites of the highest order. You claim that we should look at “both sides” but you reject, out of hand, all evidence that does not support your own conclusions.

    Certainly you’ve never studied anything remotely related to “evidence based medicine”, otherwise you’d know what the scientific method implies when proving the safety and effectiveness of a medical intervention: PLACEBO CONTROLLED TRIALS WITH A CLINICAL ENDPOINT.… this is the only way to obtain scientific evidence in the vaccination field.

    However, when asked to produce such cliical trials the pharma shills bring none, or bring trials wher the so called “placebo” was a different vaccine, or trials where the enpoint is a surrogate antibody rather than actual lack of clinical symptoms… or even the old ald worn argument of “it yould not be ethical” in spite of having had millions of voluntary individuals that refuse vaccination, in all periods of modern history, to constitute valid and ethical untreated contriol groups!

    You vaxers are all charlatans!

  50. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 10:02 am

    @ Sammy: I asked you and your sockie first what your credentials are. By your posts here we can safely assume that neither of you have any university-conferred degrees in any of the sciences, nor do you possess any professional licenses in any health care field and, have never worked in any health care field or in any laboratory.

    Lawrence, did I read these cranks’ posts correctly, that smallpox has not been eradicated…it is just renamed as monkey pox?

    “Smallpox still exists in Africa and the US today, but the WHO has changed its nme to “monkeypox” to save face for having (wrongly) annouced “mission accomplished”:”

    putin states…

    “There were no scientific papers and no peer review at the time of the smallpox epidemics, so it’s anyone’s guess.”

    http://www2.cdc.gov/nip/isd/spoxclincian/contents/references/DatelineSpox.pdf

  51. July 29, 2012 at 10:26 am

    lilady :
    “There were no scientific papers and no peer review at the time of the smallpox epidemics, so it’s anyone’s guess.”
    http://www2.cdc.gov/nip/isd/spoxclincian/contents/references/DatelineSpox.pdf

    It doesn’t surprise me to see another pro-vaxer ignorant of what what a primary source of scientific information is. You pretend a CDC gazette is a source of research :D

    For your education:

    – A primary source is the original material of first-hand information. In the natural sciences, primary sources include results of experiments or a direct observation being made. The results of empirical studies are typically found in scholarly articles or papers delivered at conferences, so those articles and papers that present the original discoveries are considered primary sources.

    In contrast, a secondary source (what you provided) is something written about a primary source. Secondary sources include comments on, interpretations of, or discussions about the original material. Secondary source materials can be articles in newspapers or popular magazines, book or movie reviews, or articles found in scholarly journals that discuss or evaluate someone else’s original research.

    Again, pro-vaxer shills show evidence of having no backgroun science education whatsoever!

  52. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Lilady,

    I am a qualified practitioner in Health Science! & i spend a lot of my spare time researching.

    & as I have replied already …. “as there have been many Neuroscientists, Doctors, Phd’s, & specialists that have all stepped up to speak out about dangers of Vaccines… SO WHY DO YOU NEED SOMEONES CREDENTIALS ON THIS SITE, when you still dismiss MAJORITY of the findings & research from top neuroscientists.

    We would love to see your credentials thanks..”

  53. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 11:00 am

    You find the old journal articles then. Write to the JAMA, the New England Journal of Medicine or to the Lancet for archived copies of their articles, scan them and put them in your posts here.

    What is your background in science putin. It looks suspiciously to me and other posters here that you and your sockies never went near a university, (Google U and Hamburger U don’t count). What professional licenses do you possess (a dog license doesn’t count). Where have you ever worked in any of the health care professions, or in research?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  54. July 29, 2012 at 11:02 am

    lilady :
    You find the old journal articles then. Write to the JAMA,

    Yes, I know how it works… the problem is YOU vaxers are unable to find and share the primary sources of your beliefs, NOT ME!

  55. July 29, 2012 at 11:04 am

    lilady :
    Where have you ever worked in any of the health care professions, or in research?
    Inquiring minds want to know.

    My dick is bigger than yours and such….

    If you can’t debate me and I have no degree – as you pretend – that speaks volumes about your intellect and education, doesn’t it?

  56. July 29, 2012 at 11:14 am

    For those curious, I do prior art searches in a variety of science fields for a living. My job is to assess the novelty or lack of it of a – pretended – new development.

    My experience has led me to question the origins of the vaccination belief system, and my search for “prior art” on immunisation protection has only led to uncover bad science and fraud.

    I’m not the only one… Cochrane Collaboration ( http://www.cochrane.org/ ) has done a good job at bringing pharma manipulation of vaccine studies to public attention:

    Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.

    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007;(2):CD001269.

    “… WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies…”

  57. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 11:23 am

    lilady …we are still waiting to hear what your credentials are? …If any!

  58. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 11:37 am

    @ Sammy “what qualified practitioner” in “what health science”? Are you deliberately being obtuse?

    Here you go Sammy, for you and Putin:

    I have a BSc-Nursing degree from a major U.S. University. I worked as a public health nurse/epidemiologist in the Communicable Disease Control Division of a large County health department, investigating cases of single vaccine-preventable diseases and outbreaks of those diseases…in addition to investigating viral, bacterial and parasitic communicable diseases for which vaccines are not available, yet.

    I ran small special clinics to provide immunizations and immune globulin shots to people who had been exposed to these vaccine-preventable diseases…as well as TB clinics to test those who had been exposed to active TB cases. I participated with dozens of my physician and nurse colleagues to provide immunizations and immune globulin to those who were exposed to local and multi-state food borne illness outbreaks.

    During the *run-up* to the WMDs scare during the G.W. Bush administration, I was among a small group of nurses and doctors who “volunteered” to be vaccinated with the smallpox vaccine. After the vaccine *took*, I then immunized a select few doctors and nurses in area hospitals (ID specialists). Only about 200 persons within my county were ever given the smallpox vaccine during the WMDs “scare”.

    I worked in public health during that frightful time when prairie dogs were sold illegally as pets and I sent animal control officers to take the “pets” to our County and State Labs to be euthanized and tested for the bacterium:

    http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/3/03-0878_article.htm

    When I worked in public health, I was in the thick of the case surveillance for SARS and for West Nile Virus outbreaks, so I am well aware of zoonotic diseases.

    Now about your specific education, professional licensing and work experiences in the health care field….

  59. July 29, 2012 at 11:44 am

    lilady :
    @ Sammy “what qualified practitioner” in “what health science”? Are you deliberately being obtuse?
    Here you go Sammy, for you and Putin:
    I have a BSc-Nursing degree from a major U.S. University.

    Therefore you’re biased to reject the idea that you wasted much of your time studying pseudoscience.

  60. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 11:47 am

    So far Putin has come across as one of the most educated, intelligent, logical, articulated person on this blog. Thanks for the great information!

  61. July 29, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Sammy :
    So far Putin has come across as one of the most educated, intelligent, logical, articulated person on this blog. Thanks for the great information!

    Thanks! If only English was my first language… you’d see.

  62. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 11:58 am

    @ putin:

    “For those curious, I do prior art searches in a variety of science fields for a living. My job is to assess the novelty or lack of it of a – pretended – new development.”

    Huh?

  63. July 29, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    lilady :
    Huh?

    Your neuron has given up?

  64. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    he / she does patent searches……or works in a patent office. It is grunt work.

  65. July 29, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Lawrence :
    he / she does patent searches……or works in a patent office. It is grunt work.

    In the US, perhaps. No searches are performed there as the problem is passed on to the courts.

  66. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    @putin – are you saying that the US patent office does no searches for prior art?

  67. July 29, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – are you saying that the US patent office does no searches for prior art?

    It only pretends it does. Documents cited are actually random, so the European Patent Office sistematically ignores them because they’re a waste of time and a disservice to the customer, so it goes on to find its own citations.

    That’s why US examiners are paid peanuts while their European counterparts earn 12,000 EUR a month free of tax. Quality is the keyword here.

  68. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Worth a watch, twisting & watering down of studies … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIFpbAxDMYI&feature=g-vrec

  69. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    @ Lawrence: Is that what she does? Does she also have a *side job* as a medical epidemiologist or Infectious diseases specialist?

  70. July 29, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    lilady :
    @ Lawrence: Is that what she does? Does she also have a *side job* as a medical epidemiologist or Infectious diseases specialist?

    If you weren’t too dumb to debate citations, you wouldn’t engage in silly speculations about the personal life of anyone.

  71. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    @lilady – Degree from Google University, that seems to be about it. Since both putin & sammy have no faith in studies, I’m surprised they can find anything that they actually believe – since the only thing they do believe is what already fits their pre-conceived notions – at least the rest of us can say that if new information from credible sources becomes available, we are willing to take a look and be flexible.

    Neither sammy, nor putin show they believe in anything other than what they’ve already decided is true. Despite literally thousands of papers, years of research (by a variety of sources), they will not change their beliefs one iota…..so who’s close-minded?

  72. July 29, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Lawrence :
    Since both putin & sammy have no faith in studies,

    I always though science was the opposite of FAITH, but you confirm vaccination for you is a matter of religion.

    That’s why my job is detecting bogus claims, bad science and fraud, while yours and lilady’s consists on religiously implementing WHO directives without questioning at the risk of losing your yes-man positions.

  73. July 29, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Lawrence :
    Neither sammy, nor putin show they believe in anything other than what they’ve already decided is true.

    First vaccination was a matter of FAITH, now it’s a BELEIF… you’re getting hotter and hotter!

  74. July 29, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Well guy, the pro-vaxers have downgraded the debate to ad hominems… not worth my time.

    I’ll be back when any one of them gets back the courage to debate VACCINES.

    See ya!

  75. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    @putin – I am referring to your “faith” and your “belief” – which you “believe” that vaccines are ineffective in the face of a mountain of scientific evidence & you have “faith” in your own skills that you “believe” far exceed those thousands of professionals that study vaccines, safety and population health for a living….

    You are the “true believer” here – you readily admit that no amount of evidence to the contrary would make you change what you already “know” to be true.

  76. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    And good riddance…..

  77. July 29, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Lawrence, cut the crap and bring up the PLACEBO CONTROLLED TRIALS WITH A CLINICAL ENDPOINT of any vaccine you advocate for.

    f you can’t produce them then at least have the decency of shutting up and stop offending the intelligence of the readers.

    Al the rest is a sea of bullshit you seem to enjoy swimming up to the neck in.

  78. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    @putin – you have made it abundantly clear that regardless of the what evidence is provided, you will reject it for whatever reason you deem appropriate. Given that you are not prepared to debate anything besides what you deem to be “true” any other discussion is completely useless.

    You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.

  79. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    @ Lawrence: I stand *accused* of engaging ” in silly speculations about the personal life of anyone”.

    Do they even know what a professional life is…as opposed to a personal life?

    The sockies have no higher education degree in any field…no less a degree in any science field. I doubt whether they completed a high school curriculum. Germ theory is taught in the lower grades of elementary school. The beginnings of analytical thinking is taught and understood by teenagers, and further developed in colleges and universities.

    There are many great websites on the internet to learn about immunology and medical epidemiology, but they require a modicum of intelligence and analytical thinking…which the sockies are so obviously lacking.

    If you only *sources* of information about diseases is whale.to, rense.com and other conspiracy websites and you continually cite YouTube…you are marked as a thread-derailing troll.

  80. July 29, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – you have made it abundantly clear that regardless of the what evidence is provided…..bla….bla…bla…

    The evidence you vaxers provide is of a widespread manipulation of conclusions in vaccine studies.

    Here’s a good place for you to start educating yourself and questioning the very fundamentals of your belief system!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

    Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.

    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007;(2):CD001269.

    “… WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). …The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies…”

  81. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Lawrence…notice how the sockies resort to filth now…after running out of cogent, insightful posts. They could’ve, should’ve, would’ve.

    They could have stayed in school and taken some science courses

    They should have gone to university and pursued a degree in some science field.

    They would have gained a professional degree that qualifies them to be professionally licensed and gainfully employed.

    But they didn’t….

  82. July 29, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    They’re all inm RANT mode now… :D

    widespread manipulation… Bwahahahahha!

  83. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    @putin – actually, that would just mean that you should reject all evidence – since you can’t cherry pick and say manipulation only occurs on one side of the table…..

    And, because you harp on “placebo-controlled studies” as your gold-standard – you can’t accept self-selected populations to guarantee proper results. You would need to take completely random groups, give 50% the vaccine & 50% the placebo, without the participants knowing which one they had received.

    If, in case of a disease outbreak, the participants would have no idea if their children had received the vaccine or not, so would not be able to make a truly informed decision as to how to react. Of course, since you believe that vaccines are ineffective, it wouldn’t matter to you, but for those children that do get infected, suffer the known serious complications of the disease & even perhaps die, it would be little consolation.

    Of course, the last time this type of study was attempted in the US – the Tuskegee Study, it is now held up as the poster-child for unethical medical research.

    If you truly did your research, you would know about the various post-survelliance safety programs that are in place to track the overall safety records of any drug or treatment in the marketplace – including the CDC vaccine safety survelliance program. I, myself, was part of a large-scale general health study during my childhood – so yes, they do exist.

    We could sit here all day and give you hundreds of separate citations and clinical papers detailing the history of vaccine research and studies, not just in the US, but around the world. Again, you’ve already let us know that you will reject any evidence that does not meet your specific criteria.

    No system or treatment is perfect, but the overwhelming amount of evidence that we do have shows that vaccines and the vaccine program is much safer than the diseases that they prevent. You can continue to say whatever you would like, but the 95 – 99% reduction in incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases alone is more evidence than you can bring to the table that they have been effective.

    Have fun storming the castle – because again, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.

  84. July 29, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    Lawrence, If you were in possession of interesting material you could afford to be short and to the point, as I am.

    But since you know you come here empy handed study-wise, you rant. You write nothing worth reading, my friend.

  85. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    Dr Sherri J Tenpenny presents Vaccines, What the CDC Documents and Science Reveal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGJwaUVdno&feature=related

  86. July 29, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Lawrence :
    … but the overwhelming amount of evidence that we do have…

    Overwhelming manipulation, overwhelmingly bad science and false claims.

    Debunk this:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

    Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.

    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007;(2):CD001269.

    “… WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). …The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies…”

  87. Sammy
  88. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    lilady:

    @ Sammy: I asked you and your sockie first what your credentials are.

    In an earlier thread she said she did <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piu75P8sxTo&feature=plcpapplied kinesiology. Sammy should enjoy the link, since it is a video on how applied kinesiology works.

    And I still don’t know why we should care about what Putin says. Especially when she indicates her attitude with requests this politely:

    Lawrence, cut the crap and bring up the PLACEBO CONTROLLED TRIALS WITH A CLINICAL ENDPOINT of any vaccine you advocate for.

    Pulling this back on-topic, Salk polio vaccine was tested against placebo. From “A calculated risk”: the Salk polio vaccine field trials of 1954:

    Across the United States, 623 972 schoolchildren were injected with vaccine or placebo, and more than a million others participated as “observed” controls. The results, announced in 1955, showed good statistical evidence that Jonas Salk’s killed virus preparation was 80-90% effective in preventing paralytic poliomyelitis.1

  89. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Mercury, Autism and the Global Vaccine Agenda
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646

  90. July 29, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Lawrence :
    the 95 – 99% reduction in incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases alone is more evidence …

    Gosh! you’re such an ignorant…

    Statistics 101… http://stats.org/in_depth/faq/causation_correlation.htm

    What is the difference between causation and correlation?

    “…One of the most common errors we find in the press is the confusion between correlation and causation in scientific and health-related studies. …But just because two things occur together does not mean that one caused the other, even if it seems to make sense….

    Do you understand now why it’s educated parents who mostly oppose vaccines? Educated parents don’t make silly statistical interpretation mistakes.

  91. July 29, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Chris :
    Salk polio vaccine was tested against placebo. From “A calculated risk”: the Salk polio vaccine field trials of 1954:

    Across the United States, 623 972 schoolchildren were injected with vaccine or placebo, and more than a million others participated as “observed” controls. The results, announced in 1955, showed good statistical evidence that Jonas Salk’s killed virus preparation was 80-90% effective in preventing paralytic poliomyelitis.1

    Sure, you left the disclaimer out:

    “…The statistical design used in this great experiment was singular, prompting criticism at the time and since. ..”

    Another great example of vaccine junk science, conclusion manipulation and fraud.

  92. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Sammy:

    Mercury, Autism and the Global Vaccine Agenda

    No polio vaccine ever contained mercury. Do you also believe in the Illuminati like Dr. Ayoub?

  93. Lawrence
  94. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    I have links in moderation that directly address putin’s points. I’m sure she will find fault in them, but at this point, who cares.

    Have agreat weekend all.

  95. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Bla bla bla ranting away.. look what we started.
    Lol squirming in their tightly conditioned boxed parameters..
    Too many flaws, cover-ups & corruption that they even care to admit!

    But evidence is backing up around the world & many parents & health care workers are now taking a stand & know their rights & are Opting Out from subjecting their health happy babies to a deadly concoction that could change everything. Its not not worth the risk!

  96. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Sammy:

    But evidence is backing up around the world & many parents & health care workers

    What evidence? You mostly post silly videos, including one from a conspiracy nut.

    Now, explain exactly why we should care about your opinions.

  97. July 29, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Chris :
    No polio vaccine ever contained mercury.

    They contain aluminium hydroxide and phenoxyethanol:

    (see page 4 http://www.racgp.org.au/cmi/gwcinfiv.pdf )

    – Aluminium hydroxide is a neurotoxic recently liked to cognitive imparment and autism when injected.

    – Phenoxyethanol, a hazardous material considered harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin, and may cause reproductive defects. This is worthy of note because, like other vaccine package inserts, this one clearly states that long-term studies on the vaccine’s effect on fertility have never been done.

  98. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Chris, I take it your nurse aswell?

    Well im glad someone pays some attention lol. I am qualified in numerous things Holistic Kinesiology is one of them. But it is nothing like that link. I have saved many lives so just shows the ignorance here.

    The rest is not for this blog as it would be too much for your minds!

  99. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Putin… Its sickening that they are so one sided & that don’t actually seem to care what toxic evidence & studies there are or how many life threatening adverse reaction there are, They would never admit it anyhow. no matter what evidence is staring them in the face, as most of them believe they are doing a good job, following orders from Big Pharma & just doing what they are told, besides most of them here are nurses that inject the babies with these toxins.

  100. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Aluminium hydroxide is a neurotoxin & on the scale is same if not worse then mercury!

  101. July 29, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Yes Sammy, these people work at the bottom of the pharma feed chain, they execute the heinous crime with their own hands:

    http://www.gorydetails.net/demo_sites/SmallpoxSite/smpx_safetysur03.html

  102. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Are vaccines really safe?… Safety levels are way over http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBMHRVghH4

  103. Sammy
    July 29, 2012 at 2:37 pm
  104. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    - Aluminium hydroxide is a neurotoxic recently liked to cognitive imparment and autism when injected.

    Sammy, what is the most common metal element on this planet’s crust?

    And I am not a nurse, but a parent of a child injured by a now vaccine preventable disease.

    You both are pulling the old tired and boring pharma shill gambit, post silly videos, websites, news reports and distort whatever tiny bit of scientific literature that you do post.

    Why should we care about your opinions?

  105. July 29, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Chris :

    Sammy, what is the most common metal element on this planet’s crust?

    Carbon, Nitrogen and Hydrogen are superabundant and inocuous… would you then recommend inhaling Cianide gas? You’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for pro-vaccines arguments…

    Aluminium hydroxide is not an element, it’s a compound. When injected, this is what does to the nervous system:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748679rs

    Long-term persistence of vaccine-derived aluminum hydroxide is associated with chronic cognitive dysfunction.

    “…Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF) is an emerging condition, characterized by specific muscle lesions assessing long-term persistence of aluminum hydroxide within macrophages at the site of previous immunization… MMF patients had pronounced and specific cognitive impairment. MACD mainly affected (i) both visual and verbal memory; (ii) executive functions, including attention, working memory, and planning; and (iii) left ear extinction at dichotic listening test…”

    Want stupid kids? give them cumulative doses of aluminium salts in vaccines!

  106. July 29, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Chris :
    And I am not a nurse, but a parent of a child injured by a now vaccine preventable disease.

    There’s no evidence of a “vaccine preventable disease”.

    I myself was injured as a child by a vaccine.

  107. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    What is the most common metal element in this planet’s crust?

    By the in layman’s terms “Macrophagic myofasciitis” means “sore arm.”

  108. July 29, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Chris :
    What is the most common metal element in this planet’s crust?

    Irrelevant. See above.

    Chris :
    By the in layman’s terms “Macrophagic myofasciitis” means “sore arm.”

    When induced by aluminum hydroxide in vaccines, as the study shows, it additionally means a sore brain.

    Man, your denial of evidence is bordering on the mentally sick.

  109. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    @ Chris: In case you were *wondering* what *qualifies* a person to call themselves a *qualified holistic kinesiologist*…

    http://www.naturalhealers.com/qa/kinesiology.html

    ” Average Length of Study

    For most kinesiology degrees approved by the International College of Applied Kinesiology, basic training includes 100 hours of study. More advanced study to become a “Diplomate” means 300 additional hours of instruction plus examinations.”

    Ergo, a *qualified holistic kinesiologist* is *qualified* to flip hamburgers at the local McDonalds…after graduating from Hamburger U.

  110. July 29, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Kinesiology is certainly as scientific as giving healthy people injections of junk, the difference is it has never maimed a healthy patient for life.

  111. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @lilady – certainly homeopathy never killed anyone either (unless you include drowning), but it certainly never helped anything other that dehydration.

  112. July 29, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Lawrence :
    @lilady – certainly homeopathy never killed anyone either (unless you include drowning), but it certainly never helped anything other that dehydration.

    Homeopathy’s principle: “Whan kills you, in a smaller does makes you strong”… is exactly the same principle of vaccines, exactly the same pseudoscience of vaccines!

  113. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    @lilady – what is the anticipated eradication timeline now? I know Afghanistan is going to be an issue, but there is always hope.

  114. July 29, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    Lawrence :
    @lilady – what is the anticipated eradication timeline now? I know Afghanistan is going to be an issue, but there is always hope.

    The great maimer of children in Afghanistan are NATO bombs financed by you and me.

  115. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    I also know the tribal regions in Pakistan are a problem area too, though polio is probably pretty low on mortality scale. We do what we can though.

  116. July 29, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    Lawrence :
    I also know the tribal regions in Pakistan are a problem area too, though polio is probably pretty low on mortality scale. We do what we can though.

    Which consists exclusively of injecting them with expensive GlaxoSmithKlines junk and hope the problems goes away.

    Nutrition and hygene is not part of the anti-polio program, and I’m afraid it never will.

  117. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    @ Lawrence: You can follow the progress of total polio eradication progress at this website:

    http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Poliothisweek.aspx

    Did I ever tell post about meeting a retired physician who participated in the eradication of smallpox, while working as a young doctor in the Indian subcontinent, just before smallpox was eradicated from the face of the earth? What an extraordinary experience that was…to actually meet a physician who was on the front lines.

    But for political unrest, in Africa and in the Middle East, we would have achieved our goal of obliterating another scourge (polio), from the face of the earth.

  118. July 29, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    lilady :
    just before smallpox was eradicated from the face of the earth?

    Smallpox disappeared when the vaccine was removed from the face of th Earth.

    “Supposing that the mortality from small-pox decreased from 502 in the decade 1771-80 to 204 in the decade 1801-10, because of the introduction of vaccination, how is it that nearly two centuries before its introduction, the death-rate of small-pox was only 189……. ? From 1796 to 1825 there was not any epidemic of small-pox in London.”—Dr. Charles T. Pearce, M.D. [1868 Book: Essay on Vaccination]

    “Three children, all of the same parents, aged respectively 3, 6, and 7 months, ‘all died of “diarrhoea after vaccination.” In these cases the small-pox virus invaccinated was driven upon the intestines, and produced “diarrhoea” and death. In the latter cases the invaccinated virus produced its like in another form, i.e, the small-pox. Deaths from “diarrhoea” after “vaccination” may be counted by their “tens of thousands.”—JNO. PICKERING, F.S.S., F.R.G.S. [1876. THE STATISTICS OF THE MEDICAL OFFICERS TO THE LEEDS SMALL-POX HOSPITAL EXPOSED AND REFUTED]

    “The increased deaths from these five causes, from 1855 to 1880, exceed the total deaths from Small-pox during the same period! So that even if the latter disease had been totally abolished by vaccination, the general mortality would have been increased, and there is much reason to believe that the increase may have been caused by vaccination itself.”–Wallace – 1889

    “In 1871-2—thirty-five years after this Compulsory Vaccination Act—came the terrible epidemic which swept all over Europe. It came to Prussia, and what was the result? In that year small-pox carried off no less than 124,978 of her vaccinated and re-vaccinated citizens after thirty-five years of compulsory vaccination of the description which I have referred to!”–Dr Hadwen MD (The Case Against Vaccination —an address at Gloucester on Saturday, January 25th, 1896, during the Gloucester Smallpox Epidemic)

    Is it not, therefore, rather strange, Mr. President, that vaccination should be reported as so utterly harmless in the distant Philippines, where we can not easily get at the records, when we know it is so deadly in the nearby England and America, where the accessible records show that it causes, frequently, more deaths than smallpox, as I have already proved? For example: the great English Commission on Vaccination found that deaths from vaccination were sometimes as high as seventy deaths per million vaccinated. This is twice as high as the mortality from smallpox in the United States, which for five years, from 1901 to 1905, including our last great epidemic period of 1901 and 1902, averaged only thirty-four deaths per million population! [1920 USA] HORRORS OF VACCINATION EXPOSED AND ILLUSTRATED BY CHAS. M. HIGGINS

    “At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccination than by smallpox.”—George Bernard Shaw 1929

    “I have had in my own experience one very small epidemic comprising 33 (smallpox) cases of which 29 had vaccination histories and a good scar, and some of them vaccinated within the last year. There was no protection there. “—Dr. William Howard Hay – 1937

    “Within my long lifetime, its ruthless enforcement throughout Europe [la vacunación] ended in two of the worst epidemics of smallpox in record, our former more dreaded typhus and cholera epidemics having meanwhile been ended by sanitation. After that failure, the credit of vaccination was saved for a while by the introduction of isolation, which at once produced improved figures.”—George Bernard Shaw (August 9, 1944, the Irish Times)

    In England & Wales in the 16 years ended Dec 1948, only 2 children (under 5) died of smallpox, but 72 died of vaccination in 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942. 20 deaths were assigned to smallpox vaccination and none to smallpox (under 5).”–The Vaccination Inquirer Sept 1953 [Ref: Replies to Minister of Health, 13 July 1938, 23 Oct 1941, 11 Nov 1943, 24th Dec 1946, 23rd Sept 1948, April 11th 1949]

  119. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    That’s one of the real problems – these are very isolated areas, with sometimes very little infrastructure & plenty of pre-existing conditions which make the entire situation fairly difficult. I know, towards the end of the smallpox campaign, that there were several setbacks related to things like Civil War or natural disasters that were temporary setbacks.

    There is some great material in the “Demon in the Freezer” book, by the same gentleman that did the “Hot Zone” about the Ebola Outbreak in VA about the latter stages of the Smallpox Eradication effort, including the last outbreak in Germany, due to poor storage and handling of Smallpox – very bad outbreak in a hospital.

    It will be nice to be able to put at least one more disease on the wall – Smallpox, Rinderpest, then polio, and perhaps Measles or Mumps, if we can ever get our acts together.

    Any disease that doesn’t have a non-human host / reservoir should be on the list – if the money can ever be put towards it. Well, we’ll see – I am hopeful that we’ll see a number of changes over the next decade or so as we can improve the overall conditions of some of these areas & perhaps even newer and more effective vaccines come into the market.

  120. July 29, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    lilady :
    But for political unrest, in Africa and in the Middle East, we would have achieved our goal of obliterating another scourge (polio), from the face of the earth.

    I don’t think you can erradicate nothing by actively contributing to its spread:

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-14-nigeria-polio_N.htm

    Polio in Nigeria Traced to Vaccine

    “… LONDON (AP) — Polio, a dreaded paralyzing disease stamped out in the industrialized world, is spreading in Nigeria despite efforts to stamp it out. And health officials say in some cases,it’s caused by the vaccine used to fight it.

    In July, the World Health Organization issued a warning that this vaccine-spread virus might extend beyond Africa. So far, 124 Nigerian children have been paralyzed this year — about twice those afflicted in 2008. …”

    Talk about genocide and crimes against humanity!

  121. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    @lilady – I have a friend that works with USAID & they are trying to recover from the CIA / Polio campaign connection from last year. It was extremely poor form to pull that & I can’t even tell you how pissed the doctors were when they found out.

    I understand the need for “on-the-ground” intelligence but getting the CIA involved with the Polio campaign in Afghanistan and Pakistan was extremely bad.

  122. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    @lilady

    That is such an interesting story. I know my mother and father told me about getting the smallpox vaccinations. They told me that their parents were grateful for getting the vaccinations for themselves and their children, especially since my dad in particular witnessed someone who had smallpox. The child survived, but was badly scarred by the disease.

    I certainly hope that they can eventually get rid of polio. Such a bad thing when the Taliban banned health workers from giving the polio vaccine to children there, always runs the risk of reintroducing polio into the environment.

    I also hope that they start using the polio shots rather than the oral polio vaccines, since the shots have a much lower risk than the oral versions.

  123. July 29, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    novalox :
    @lilady
    …especially since my dad in particular witnessed someone who had smallpox. The child survived, but was badly scarred by the disease.

    Why do you leave out the only data that matters? that unfortunate child was previously vaccinated, wasn’t it?

  124. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    lilady:

    Did I ever tell post about meeting a retired physician who participated in the eradication of smallpox, while working as a young doctor in the Indian subcontinent, just before smallpox was eradicated from the face of the earth?

    Have you read House on Fire: The Fight to Eradicate Smallpox by William Foege. It is an interesting read on how he worked with some very dedicated doctors in India.

  125. July 29, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    novalox :
    Taliban banned health workers from giving the polio vaccine to children there

    They also banned growing opium and now NATO is promoting both.

    The world is awash with money-driven “benefactors” that were never invited inthe first place!

  126. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    @putinreloaded

    No, according to my father, his mother told him the child was not vaccinated.

    Funny coming from you, since you have been proven to cherry pick data constantly.

  127. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Lawrence :
    @lilady – I have a friend that works with USAID & they are trying to recover from the CIA / Polio campaign connection from last year. It was extremely poor form to pull that & I can’t even tell you how pissed the doctors were when they found out.
    I understand the need for “on-the-ground” intelligence but getting the CIA involved with the Polio campaign in Afghanistan and Pakistan was extremely bad.

    Agree with that. If anything, it will hamper efforts to eradicate polio in that area. I certainly hop that the taliban will change their minds, but given their mindset, I don’t hold out much hope.

  128. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    @novalox – I’m sure no one really thought about it at the time, but with the negative publicity that we seem to walk in to over there, I really wish someone had thought to question what might happen if the operation was exposed.

    In fact, I believe it may have been the Wikileaks that brought that particular operation to the surface.

    The Taliban really aren’t the problem anymore – it will be the tribal conflicts that will erupt once we leave the country. Unfortunately, we are just arming the different parties for the next war – it is going to be a mess.

    We would have been better off spending the money to build a wall around that entire area – they aren’t interested in the 20th Century (much less the 21st) and are happy to live in the 12th. My only hope is that we can get more women out of the country – it is very sad to see what is happening to them & they (the daughters, at least) deserve some hope of a decent life.

  129. July 29, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Lawrence :
    We would have been better off spending the money to build a wall around that entire area – they aren’t interested in the 20th Century

    They’re not interested in US values and it’e their human right.

    The comment perfectly illustrates the lowly moral and ethical cloth the pharma shills are cut from.

  130. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    My only hope is that we can get more women out of the country – it is very sad to see what is happening to them & they (the daughters, at least) deserve some hope of a decent life.

  131. July 29, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Lawrence :
    My only hope is that we can get more women out of the country – it is very sad to see what is happening to them & they (the daughters, at least) deserve some hope of a decent life.

    Bomb them to back to the stone age and then invade… oh wat! you did that already.

    Then re-bomb and re-invade!

  132. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    @novalox – my good friend worked in Herat & the outlying provinces for about five years. The stories she brought back certainly shine a different light than what we get from the mainstream media – but the basic problem remains that these people have lived the way they live for hundreds of year & (at least the men) aren’t interested in changing things.

    Of course, it isn’t necessarily a problem for the men, but for the women, girls, and young boys that are victimized as part of their culture (and it isn’t religious – Afghanistan isn’t a particularly country) – it is just the way it has been as long as anyone can remember, so trying to make changes of the positive, including shoring up women’s rights, is a very daunting task.

  133. July 29, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Lawrence :
    trying to make changes of the positive, including shoring up women’s rights, is a very daunting task.

    Start by fuxing things at home… What about men’s rights int the USA? Stop the routine sexual mutilation of male babies at birth.

  134. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    A great read, though more than a little depressing, is “Little America: The War Within the War for Afghanistan” by Rajiv Chandrasekaran. He also did a great book about the Iraq Reconstruction as well – for all of our best intentions, we’ve managed to make quite a mess……

  135. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    @Lawrence

    It is always a fine balance, trying to balance culture and reform. The major problem with Afghanistan is that it has most often been a tribal culture with a loose central government and often relying on alliances. Working on changes there I would believe would be a difficult task there.

    Anyways, I certainly hope that polio doesn’t begin to become endemic there. I certainly hope not, since it would be a shame if children there get a disease and suffer from the sequelae that results from a vaccine-preventable disease.

  136. July 29, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Lawrence :
    He also did a great book about the Iraq Reconstruction as well

    Just waiting for the day the US gets “reconstructed” too.

  137. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    @novalox – sorry to get off topic, but yes, the situation there certainly does not lend itself towards major medical programs. I am very afraid that we’ll see a complete breakdown of civil order upon withdrawal, but then again, it has been the way Afghanistan has been for hundreds of year. They have never had any sort of strong central authority – ever, though the northern parts of the country are a slightly better shape due to better communications with the Central Asian countries and more educated populations.

    We have a pretty small window of opportunity & I hope that the WHO and USAID is able to take advantage of it.

  138. July 29, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    novalox :
    it would be a shame if children there get a disease and suffer from the sequelae that results from a vaccine-preventable disease.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-14-nigeria-polio_N.htm

    Polio in Nigeria Traced to Vaccine

    “… LONDON (AP) — Polio… is spreading in Nigeria… And health officials say in some cases,it’s caused by the vaccine used to fight it. … the World Health Organization issued a warning that this vaccine-spread virus might extend beyond Africa. … 124 Nigerian children have been paralyzed this year…”

    You guys are low IQ and live in a delusional autistic world. You are the disease.

  139. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    @Lawrence

    I certainly hope too. I don’t know what it will take for the taliban to change their minds. I certainly hope it isn’t due to an increase in polio cases in the area. But then again

    As an aside, I also certainly hope that they use the inactivated polio shots instead of the oral polio vaccines such as the ones they used in Nigeria, since it poses much less risks.

    But then again, who knows about the taliban?

  140. July 29, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    novalox :
    @Lawrence
    I certainly hope too. I don’t know what it will take for the taliban to change their minds.

    Taliban means student.

    Just like a majority of highly educated anti-vaxer parents, these students have probably done their homework too.

  141. July 29, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/409956/north-waziristan-tribes-endorse-taliban-ban-on-polio-vaccinations/

    “… Drones martyr so many children, while polio afflicts one or two out of hundreds of thousands…” said tribal elder Maamoor Khan.

    It seems the students they know their enemy and their priorities well.

  142. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Lawrence:

    A great read, though more than a little depressing, is “Little America: The War Within the War for Afghanistan” by Rajiv Chandrasekaran.

    Thanks, I’ll add that to my list of books. I was a bit disappointed with the “rah-rah” parts of Three Cups of Tea (even before the veracity and financial details became public).

    I thought it was interesting that the latest Sherlock Holmes series (the one by the “Doctor Who” guys) has Dr. Watson being a veteran of Afghanistan in the present day. Just like the original stories written over a century ago.

  143. July 29, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    novalox :
    I also certainly hope that they use the inactivated polio shots instead of the oral polio vaccines such as the ones they used in Nigeria, since it poses much less risks

    Too bad there’s no trial with clinical endpoints on this vaccine safety either, nor of its effectivity at preventing disease.

  144. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    @Chris – yes, there are many similarities between the original books & the new series. My wife and I are just about ready to start watching the second season. The acting was exceptional in the first one, though I felt the second episode fell a little flat when compared to the premier.

  145. Lawrence
    July 29, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    @Chris – there are very few “rah, rah” moments – all in all, a very fair representation of the issues on the ground.

    @novalox – it really depends on cost of delivery, I do hope they can avoid the oral, but in those types of area, the oral vaccine ends up being easier (if not better).

  146. Chris
    July 29, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    It is Vincent Racaniello’s dream that only the IPV be used. He has mentioned it often on his “This Week in Virology” podcast. He has mentioned it a couple times on his blog: http://www.virology.ws/ (he studied the polio virus).

  147. July 29, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Lawrence :
    I do hope they can avoid the oral

    Inactivated Polio Vaccine – Manufacturer’s Insert and Efficacy statements:

    IPOL-efficacy not listed in package insert-states that:

    “.. Poliovirus Vaccine Inactivated induces the production of “neutralizing” antibodies against each type of virus which are related to protective efficacy…”

    Bummer!

    IPV mass vaccination = yet another hidden, unethical clinical trial on the unwitting population!

  148. July 29, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Adding to the above:

    and

    “… Approval in the US was based upon demonstration of immunogenicity and safety in US children.–“

    “Immunogenicity” is simply the ability of your body to recognize a foreign substance and elicit an immune response.

    An interesting fact: IPOL actually uses the 1950′s Salk data from the pulled vaccine to demonstrate effectiveness!!!

    As is quoted in the IPOL Package Insert references:

    8. Salk J, et al. Antigen content of inactivated poliovirus vaccine for use in a one- or two-dose regimen. Ann Clin Res 14: 204-212, 1982
    9. Salk J, et al. Killed poliovirus antigen titration in humans. Develop Biol Standard 41: 119-132, 1978
    10. Salk J, et al. Theoretical and practical considerations in the application of killed poliovirus vaccine for the control of paralytic
    poliomyelitis. Develop Biol Standard 47: 181-198, 1981
    11. Unpublished data available from Sanofi Pasteur SA
    12. Unpublished data available from Sanofi Pasteur Inc.

    IPOL hasn’t been scientifically demonstrated in a blinded, controlled trial. Effectiveness and safety are unknown!!!

  149. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    @Lawrence

    Yeah, I know about that. The oral polio vaccine is cheaper to produce and is able to stored easier than the inactivated vaccine. In an area like Afghanistan, with little to know infrastructure in terms of electricity, refrigeration, and good roads, that is always a consideration to follow.

    Still, I hope eventually that they will tern completely to the IPV, just in order to remove the risks associated with the oral.

  150. July 29, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    novalox :
    Still, I hope eventually that they will tern completely to the IPV, just in order to remove the risks associated with the oral.

    http://www.polioeradication.org/vaccines.asp

    Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) … induces only very low levels of immunity to polivirus locally, inside the gut. As a result … cannot prevent the spread of wild polio virus.

    Doing more of the same when failing is the mark of the moron and the fraudster.

  151. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    @Chris

    Thanks for the link to Vincent Racaniello’s blog. A very interesting read indeed, from a well-educated and rational individual. .

  152. July 29, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Corrected link:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20100211135128/http://www.polioeradication.org/vaccines.asp

    “…Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) … induces only very low levels of immunity to polivirus locally, inside the gut. As a result … cannot prevent the spread of wild polio virus…

  153. lilady
    July 29, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    @ Lawrence, @ novalox @ Chris: We really are approaching the *polio endgame*. The WHO, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and other stakeholders, are in constant communication to decide when the switchover from OPV to IPV can realistically begin:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1104329

  154. July 29, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    lilady :
    @ Lawrence, @ novalox @ Chris: We really are approaching the *polio endgame*

    Yes, and the cure for cancer, and the vaccine for HIV… we all know what the pharma carrot looks like, but most fail to see the stick!

  155. novalox
    July 29, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    @lilady

    Thanks for the link. I hope that eventually, polio can be eradicated like smallpox.

  156. July 29, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    novalox :
    @lilady
    Thanks for the link. I hope that eventually, polio can be eradicated like smallpox.

    Use the same system that worked with smallpox… rename it as “monkey polio” and problem solved!

    Then your sponsors can start from scratch looking for a vaccine for the “new” di$$$ea$$$e

  157. novalox
    July 30, 2012 at 12:05 am

    @lilady

    Oh, yes, forgot to add, thanks for the other links too.

  158. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 12:16 am

    You are quite welcome, novalox. I’m glad to be of assistance.

  159. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 12:34 am

    Why is it that conspiracy theorists think they can be taken seriously when they bring out the “Small pox was just renamed” canard. That’s like claiming the World Trade Center is still standing!

  160. July 30, 2012 at 6:56 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Why is it that conspiracy theorists think they can be taken seriously when they bring out the “Small pox was just renamed” canard. That’s like claiming the World Trade Center is still standing!

    Monkeypox and smallpox are one and the same illness because the FDA has approved the same vaccine for smallpox and “monkeypox*.

    This is an acknowledgment that they are one and the same virus.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/monkeypox/factsheet2.htm

    “… In the United States the smallpox vaccine is the only FDA-approved treatment for smallpox and monkeypox. ….”

    And “monkeypox” (a.k.a. smallpox) is rampant in Africa and has an incidence in the USA:

    “…In early June 2003, monkeypox was reported among several people in the United States. Most of these people got sick after having contact with pet prairie dogs that were sick with monkeypox. This is the first time that there has been an outbreak of monkeypox in the United States…

    So yes, it’s back unless you disregard the CDC and FDA as “conspiracy theorists”.

  161. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 7:48 am

    @ Gray Falcon:

    “Why is it that conspiracy theorists think they can be taken seriously when they bring out the “Small pox was just renamed” canard. That’s like claiming the World Trade Center is still standing!”

    Very clever analogy, Gray Falcon. If you look at the conspiracy theories about the bombings of the World Trade Center, they reflect a political viewpoint, in many instances… quite radical viewpoints. Of course, those conspiracy theories which proliferated after 9-11, were extraordinarily hurtful for those who lost loved ones. My daughter worked in midtown Manhattan, but would, several times a month, work at her company’s World Trade Center office. That memory of that day is embedded in my mind, as I didn’t know where she was. It was an hour or more later, that I learned that she and hundreds of thousands of people were evacuating their offices in midtown and crossing, on foot, the 59th Street Bridge into Queens.

    Most, if not all, of the anti-vaccine crowd are totally ignorant about science (see upthread comments). Therefore, they make it up as they go along.

  162. July 30, 2012 at 9:20 am

    lilady :
    Very clever analogy, Gray Falcon.

    The righ analogy would be vaxers renaming the WTC and claiming the towers had disappeared thaks to their “science”.

    Most, if not all, of the anti-vaccine crowd are totally ignorant about science

    Says a paid phrama shill, but that’s contrary to what statistics say:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html?_r=1

    “… While the picture of an unvaccinated child was once that of the offspring of poor and uneducated parents, “exempters” are often well educated and financially stabl…”

    Once again the shills are exposed.

  163. July 30, 2012 at 9:24 am

    Not all nurses are like the low-IQ shills in this site:

    “… I’m a critical care nurse, scientifically and medically educated, and have been personaly researching vaccines for 10 years. Vaccines are TOXIC, DANGEROUS, AND COMPLETELY INNEFECTIVE. They are also very, very profitable for BigPharma and their investors. If most of you would pull you head out of your a** and faced the truth, you would understand, as I do, why your “doctor” tells you to get vaccinated. Because it’s their business, their careers, their income, their profits that your ignorance supports. You want proof vaccines are poisoning millions? Look around you. You see any 30-40 year old autistics around? Do you know anyone older than 30 with Chrons disease? Ever see a child get a vaccine, then have a seizure and regress 3 years in development in oe week? Ever wonder why only the American gulf vets have “Gulf War Syndrome?” Ever wonder why vaccine manufacturers are the ones who make, test, and market their drugs…yet have COMPLETE liability protection under law? Ever wonder why other countries are right-now banning vaccines? Ever wonder why rates of every single immune disorder, including diabetes, asthma, Crohns, and rheumatoid arthritis are skyrocketing? You are NOT protecting your children by vaccinating. You are doing the exact OPPOSITE and you are garunteeing the medical establishment future business and investor capital. Search Dr. Salk polio SV40, MMR diabetes, aluminum adjunct, and thimerosal. Analyse the stock profits from pharmaceutical companies overthe past 20 years. Search vaccine death and injury statistics. Talk to parents with vaccine-damaged children. Realize the vaccine damage done to your own children…..and then come back here in 10 years and comment.

    Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/10/23/20111023vaccination-children-parents-reject.html#ixzz2270BDgqK

  164. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 9:25 am

    @lilady – because in today’s age of readily available DNA & RNA testing, plus medical surveillance by organizations around the world(connected and unconnected, government, educational, independent, etc) – it would be so easy to hide a disease as virulent as Smallpox (NOT! – for the sarcasm disabled)

    And, of course, no one has ever heard of two, somewhat related ailments, that might actual respond to the same treatment…..I mean, that never happens, right? I mean, the original Smallpox vaccine was made from Cowpox, a somewhat related, yet relatively benign disease – but hey, it worked.

    Not to mention the various ailments that respond to antibiotics – I mean really, that idiotic logic would lead you to believe that all ailments that respond to the same treatment must be the same, regardless of different symptoms, contagiousness, etc….that’s fuzzy logic at its best.

  165. July 30, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Lawrence :
    – it would be so easy to hide a disease as virulent as Smallpox (NOT! – for the sarcasm disabled)

    Smallpox is far from “hidden”, unless you’re denying the existance of “monkeypox”.

  166. July 30, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Lawrence :
    Not to mention the various ailments that respond to antibiotics – I mean really, that idiotic logic would lead you to believe that all ailments that respond to the same treatment must be the same

    Fuzzy logic indeed, if true then you could vaccinate against tetanus with the polio vaccine :D

    The small flu virus mutations from year to year are blamed for the need to re-design the vaccine, yet the old smallpox vaccine is now used to immunized against “monkeypox”, wich you pretend is a different virus… this makes no sense unless they’re actually the same virus.

    Grasping to straws, pharma shills.

  167. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Lawrence,

    I think you better re-read the link & reconsider what you are saying here as it just doesn’t add up… as it says they are the same Virus or same branch of virus..
    “However, this risk would probably be lower in the United States, where nutrition and access to medical care are better.”… so their immune system would respond a little differently of course – Swollen Lymph nodes are basically a immune response/

    It say’s the death rate is very low & lower in US… if you do your research it is In fact alarming a lot lower then children who suffer vaccine related injuries.

    Besides babies need to build there immunity…natural.
    As its prevent other diseases later on in their life. It is more detrimentally to get ‘Pox’ when you are older.

    Any little things now then gosh we need to produce a vaccine …& its becoming ridiculous. They are now trial-ing Shingles Vaccines.. due to the effects of the small pox/monkey pox vaccine.

    I never have had a flu shot in my life & i RARELY get the flu maybe once every few years …but when i do im actually happy & ok with it as i know it slows me down & cleans me out & most important point is that it ‘builds up my immunity’.

    How com people i know or talk to who get the flu shots always seem to be getting the flu & bad migraine etc etc!

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/monkeypox/factsheet2.htm

    What causes monkeypox?
    The disease is caused by Monkeypox virus. It belongs to a group of viruses that includes the smallpox virus (variola), the virus used in the smallpox vaccine (vaccinia), and the cowpox virus.

    What are the signs and symptoms of monkeypox?
    In humans, the signs and symptoms of monkeypox are like those of smallpox, but usually they are milder. Another difference is that monkeypox causes the lymph nodes to swell.

    About 12 days after people are infected with the virus, they will get a fever, headache, muscle aches, and backache; their lymph nodes will swell; and they will feel tired. One to 3 days (or longer) after the fever starts, they will get a rash. This rash develops into raised bumps filled with fluid and often starts on the face and spreads, but it can start on other parts of the body too. The bumps go through several stages before they get crusty, scab over, and fall off. The illness usually lasts for 2 to 4 weeks.

    Can you die from monkeypox?
    In Africa, monkeypox has killed between 1 percent and 10 percent of people who get it. However, this risk would probably be lower in the United States, where nutrition and access to medical care are better.
    ————————————-

  168. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 9:58 am

    @putin – actually no. Broad spectrum antibiotics are good for a variety of diseases, yet those diseases are not the same (though you seem to claim that they are).

    Cowpox isn’t smallpox – but they were similar enough to create an appropriate immune response to prevent full-blown smallpox (in most cases).

    Monkeypox isn’t smallpox – show me the DNA / RNA profile that proves they are the same. Can you? Because if you can’t, you are full of it (not that you haven’t been before).

    You make the claim – so you provide the evidence. Show us how Monkeypox is “identical” to Smallpox.

  169. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Putin – The flaws in what they are stating is scary really, & the holes are getting bigger by the minute!
    I wouldn’t trust my baby in their hands thats for sure!!! :(

  170. July 30, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Sammy :
    this risk would probably be lower in the United States, where nutrition and access to medical care are better.

    Of course the pharma maffia knows proper nutrition is the key to errradicate disease, yet they set poor countries to spend all their sanitation budgets on useless and harmful injections that only further spread misery and disease.

  171. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Lawrence … Your own information sources are saying that they are the same Virus.. Unless they are flawed … ‘CDC.Gov’! hmm!

    So you should be proving to us that they are different…??

  172. July 30, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Sammy :
    I wouldn’t trust my baby in their hands thats for sure!!!

    You know, Sammy? these lower practicioners are just like the lower clergy of the Middle Ages, they know their Catechism by heart but can’t survive the onlaught of a discussion about Theology.

    They have smelled science from afar, and firmly believe that rubbing themselves on the scent makes them scientists.

  173. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:07 am

    @Sammy – do you know that there are viruses that infect humans, but not animals? Do you know that there are viruses that infect animals, but not people? Yet those viruses belong to the same families & same branches of the disease….

    It is also possible for viruses to move between species – sometimes a mutation allows them to infect a new population that was unaffected before. This is nothing more than evolution – it happens all the time. Some diseases are mild in animals, but can kill a human or vice-versa.

    Yes, MonkeyPox is related to Smallpox, which is also related to CowPox, but they are different, react differently (heck there were even a couple of different varieties of Smallpox – one bad, and one really, really bad), and because they react differently, there are different disease profiles & different treatments that would be effective.

    Because putin doesn’t “believe” or that there is no “proof” that germs / bacteria / virus cause disease, it is hopeless to even argue the point with her.

  174. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:09 am

    @Sammy – how is “part of the same family” of viruses saying they are identical? Because clearly it isn’t.

  175. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 10:11 am

    haha! yes well put Putin! Facts & evidence in their faces are just too much to handle & they are trying to side step around it & reword it & twist it, but they are just showing their Flaws!

    AS THIER SCIENCE IS FLAWED & ALARMINGLY COSTING TOO MANY LIVES!

  176. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Well it is saying they are the same VIRUS. No differences! MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE IT UP WITH CDC.GOV!?

    A branch of a tree is still the exact same tree…feeding off the same roots!

    Ok Lawrence so show us the DNA/RNA Profiling that clearly shows otherwise?

  177. July 30, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Lawrence :
    Monkeypox isn’t smallpox – show me the DNA / RNA profile that proves they are the same.

    Not two RNA profiles are ever the same, even from the same viral sample. This is so because sequentiation of a genome is a heuristical computing technique (it has no exact solution – lookup the ClustAl sequentiation utility) and two runs never give the same result.

    So you can’t bank on RNA identity to discard that smallpox is the same as monkeypox, just like “seasonal flu” is always seasonal flu despite differances in RNA.

    What’s more, monkeypos is claimed as a “virus related to smallpox” without specifying what tha differences are supposed to be:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100831091242.htm

    So you my write to them and inquire what the differences are… but the clinical picture is SMALLPOX and the microscopy looks like SMALLPOX:

    Variola:

    Monkeypox:

  178. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:19 am

    @sammy – nope. You are claiming they are identical, so prove it.

    So, Sammy – Monkeys, Gorillas & Humans are different branches of the same family tree – are we identical?

  179. July 30, 2012 at 10:20 am

    … but the clinical picture is SMALLPOX and the microscopy looks like SMALLPOX:

    Variola: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8071/34087d1294674575viruela.jpg

    Monkeypox: http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4862/34088d1294674575viruela.jpg

  180. July 30, 2012 at 10:24 am

    What are the difference, Lawrence?

    I mean, If you pretend – contrary to what the clinical picture leads to believe – that monkeypox is a different illness than smallpox, it’s because you have seen the work that dispells the presumption of identiy. Where is it?

  181. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Yes agree Putin, well said…

  182. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 10:41 am

    PutinReloaded, by your logic:
    a) I can use karate to fend off a murderer.
    b) I can use karate to fend off you.
    c) Therefore, you are a murderer.

  183. July 30, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Lawrence :
    Because clearly it isn’t.

    Clearly? primary references or B.S.

  184. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:42 am
  185. Lawrence
  186. Lawrence
  187. Lawrence
  188. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:44 am
  189. Lawrence
  190. July 30, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Gray Falcon :
    PutinReloaded, by your logic:
    a) I can use karate to fend off a murderer.
    b) I can use karate to fend off you.
    c) Therefore, you are a murderer.

    Certainly, Karate is not need enemy-specific in order to work, but vaccines must induce specific antibodies so your quick-and-dirty analogy is ignorance-based.

    If the smallpox vaccine can induce specific antibodies to monkeypox vaccine, it means both viruses have the same protein structure, whcih points to the same RNA… so any pretense of them having different RNA is not granted by default, it requires proof.

  191. Lawrence
  192. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Like I can trust the word of an alleged murderer.

  193. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 10:49 am

    @ Lawrence: It is utterly senseless to try and impart any science, no less virology, to people whose “professions” are some sort of “qualified holistic kinesiology” and a grunt who researches art trademarks.

    How about this Wiki article on the vaccinia vaccine…which is manufactured not with live smallpox virus, but another type of Orthopoxvirus…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopoxvirus

    “Orthopoxvirus is a genus of poxviruses that includes many species isolated from mammals, such as Camelpox virus, Cowpox virus, Ectromelia virus, Monkeypox virus, and Volepox virus, which causes mousepox. The most famous member of the genus is Variola virus, which causes smallpox. It was wiped out using another orthopoxvirus, the Vaccinia virus, as a vaccine.”

    Yes, it is hard keeping up with these sockies.

  194. Lawrence
  195. July 30, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Lawrence, you try to “win” by flooding with links that you obviously haven’t read yourself.

    Pick up one, cite the parts you believe relevant and let’s have an intelligent discussion? are you able to?

    You’re playing the octopus technique of squirting ink to all directions and hiding behind!

  196. July 30, 2012 at 10:52 am

    lilady :
    It is utterly senseless to try and impart any science

    Wikipedia is a secondary source, therefore ou have no idea of what science means.

    Cuite primary sources, charlatan, if you can.

  197. Lawrence
  198. July 30, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Lawrence, if you can’t quote the most relevant bits of your links, readers will be forced to assume you haven’t read them yourself and/or lack the IQ to understand what’s written in them.

  199. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:55 am

    @putin – actually, you are the one that cherry-picks out of the links you “cite.”

    There is a hell of a lot of science in those links, including descriptions of the genetic differences between Smallpox & Monkeypox (and the other Pox-family viruses). They also include descriptions of why the Smallpox vaccine is somewhat effective in certain cases related to Monkeypox (but not as effective as it was against Smallpox).

    So, unless you are prepared to read what I’ve provided (because I most certainly did) – you are absolutely so full of it. Cya, wouldn’t want to be ya?

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for Sammy to explain to me why humans, gorillas & monkeys are exactly the same, since we exist on the same family tree.

  200. July 30, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – actually, you are the one that cherry-picks out of the links you “cite.”
    There is a hell of a lot of science in those links, including descriptions of the genetic differences between Smallpox & Monkeypox (and the other Pox-family viruses). They also include descriptions of why the Smallpox vaccine is somewhat effective in certain cases related to Monkeypox (but not as effective as it was against Smallpox).
    So, unless you are prepared to read what I’ve provided (because I most certainly did) – you are absolutely so full of it. Cya, wouldn’t want to be ya?
    Oh, and I’m still waiting for Sammy to explain to me why humans, gorillas & monkeys are exactly the same, since we exist on the same family tree.

  201. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 10:56 am

    @putin – we already understand you don’t have a clue about virology, so I would expect that most of the science cited would be well over your head.

    Have fun.

  202. July 30, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – actually, you are the one that cherry-picks out of the links you “cite.”

    Dear Mr. Obvious, citing is by definition “cherry picking”, unless you copy and paste the full text, which is by definition silliness.

    Take your time for your own reads…:D when you’re ready to prove that you’ ve read them yourself and quote a relevant point for meaningful discussion, come back!

  203. July 30, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – we already understand you don’t have a clue about virology, so I would expect that most of the science cited would be well over your head.
    Have fun.

    Contary to you, I always quote my sources as proof that I’m not a FAKE (like you are) that I’ve actually read them and understood them, and capable of bringing a relevant point for discussion.

    You’ re a FAKE.

  204. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Parents:- Educate before you Vaccinate ..as Vaccines are doing more harm then good…how much more evidence do we need!

    We have an epidemic in Autism…why? But no one has any clue what causes Autism..true.

    “Vaccines don’t cause Autism they cause BRAIN DAMAGE” …very similar actually!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACSED0Z0TE

  205. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 11:02 am

    The central regions of the genomes of human monkeypox and smallpox viruses are nearly identical(18) but differences are considerable at the ends of the genomes where the virulence and host-directed features are located.19 These differences render unlikely the evolution of monkeypox into a virus of smallpox-like threat (mortality ~30%). (20)

    (18)Breman JG, Henderson DA. Diagnosis and management of smallpox. N Engl J Med 2002;346:1300-8.

    (20)Eserink M, Stone R. Dead virus walking. Science 2002;295:2001-5.

  206. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 11:03 am

    @Sammy – what? No answer?

    I mean, humans, gorillas & monkeys are part of the same family tree? Why aren’t we identical?

  207. July 30, 2012 at 11:03 am

    I’ve actually clicke on one of Lawrence’s links http://aac.asm.org/content/early/2008/12/15/AAC.01044-08.full.pdf

    which he pretende clarifies the differences between smallpox virus and monkypox virus :D

    I invite everybody to do the same and find what this “lower cleric” takes for primary investigation :D:D:D

  208. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 11:10 am

    @putin – there is quite a bit of science in there, I’m surprised a patent clerk like yourself could actually comprehend it (in less than 5mins).

    Would you like to admit that MonkeyPox is not genetically identical to Smallpox now?

  209. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 11:10 am

    @ Gray Falcon:

    I recall as a youngster, lining up at a local firehouse in Brooklyn to get my Smallpox vaccine.

    It was an amazing response, on the part of physicians and nurses to immunize the entire population of NYC due to an outbreak of smallpox. The “index” case was an American man who returned to the United States from Mexico where he contracted the disease:

    http://www.virology.ws/2009/12/22/smallpox-in-new-york-city-1947/

    My daughter who was born in 1970, received the smallpox vaccine at age one…children born in 1970 were the last birth cohort to receive the vaccine, as part of the Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule, in the United States.

    In the early 1970s, prior to my first trip to Europe, I was required to get the smallpox vaccine, as well. Here’s the manner in which the CDC and the WHO withdrew their recommendations for children, for travelers and for health care workers…

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00042032.htm

    “Vaccinia (smallpox) vaccine is a highly effective immunizing agent that brought about the global eradication of smallpox. The last naturally occurring case of smallpox occurred in Somalia in 1977. In May 1980, the World Health Assembly certified that the world was free of naturally occurring smallpox (1).

    Because of vaccination programs and quarantine regulations, the risk of importation of smallpox into the United States was reduced by the 1960s. As a result, routine vaccinia vaccination was discontinued in 1971 (2). In 1976, the recommendation for routine vaccination of health-care workers was also discontinued (3). In 1982, the only active licensed producer of vaccinia vaccine in the United States discontinued production for general use, and in 1983, distribution to the civilian population was discontinued (4). For several years all military personnel continued to be routinely vaccinated. However, only selected groups of military personnel are currently vaccinated against smallpox.

    Since January 1982, smallpox vaccination has not been required for international travelers, and International Certificates of Vaccination no longer include smallpox vaccination (5).”

  210. July 30, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Actually, the only primary source on smallpox and monkeypox similarities dates from 1958 in the work of von Magnus:

    On page 164 of his work he states:

    ANTIGENIC RELATIONSHIP OF THE MONKEY-POX AGENT TO VACCINIA VIRUS

    “… The clinical manifestations of the disease suggested strongly that the causative agent might he related to viruses of the variola-vaccinia group. Several experiments were therefore carried out to determine whether the isolated strain was antigenically related to vaccinia virus

    So on Magnus was able to prove SIMILARITY, not differences, between smallpox and monkeypox.

    The only difference was in the patient: one was a human and the other a macaque :D

  211. July 30, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Lawrence :
    @putin – there is quite a bit of science in there,

    Perhaps, but nothing relevat to the discussion at hand, which is whether the DNA /RNA differences (if any) between smallpox and monkeypox suppport the claim of them beign “different diseases”.

    You’re a FAKE.

  212. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Manufactures even state it as a WARNING on their vaccine leaflet – Although many parents wont think to ask to read it …they should NOT trust their Doctor so blindly & do more research!

    http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/the-pertussis-vaccine-lists-autism-and-sudden-infant-death-syndrome-as-serious-adverse-events-on-the-package-insert/

    What else are they not telling you? I took a close look at the Sanofi Pasteur DTaP vaccine (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) which is licensed by the FDA as the primary series in infants and children.

    I was astonished to discover that Autism and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) are listed as ‘adverse events reported during post-approval use.’ ‘Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.’

    The CDC, the FDA, Paul Offit and every public health flunky swear up and down the aisle that vaccines are perfectly safe and don’t cause autism or SIDS. Yet those conditions are listed on the DTaP package insert with the statement that they are included because such vaccine adverse reactions are serious and frequent.

    (Package Insert From FDA

    Diphtheria Toxoids and Pertussis Vaccine Tripedia®

    Page 11

    ‘Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.’)

  213. novalox
    July 30, 2012 at 11:23 am

    @lilady

    Oh, I have one story to tell from my days volunteering at a hospital a while back.

    I actually was talking to a patient, an old Jewish man. He had grown up in Europe and had survived the Holocaust. Soon after, he and his family moved to the United States, where he had become a successful businessman, married, and had 3 children.

    While I was there getting him some water, he told me a story of his childhood. He said that during his youth, he and one of his friends ended up catching polio. Although he survived, although he had lingering weakness for a while, his friend died from the disease, which still had an effect on him after all these years.

    He tole me the story because he had heard of the efforts to get rid of polio. He felt that it was a good thing, since he hoped that they would be able to get rid of the disease once and for all.

    Yes, it’s a story from a while back, but it was one of many that stuck with me.

  214. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 11:23 am

    @ Lawrence: If the “patent clerk” researches patent records…isn’t she qualified to understand virology?

    Maybe the “patent clerk” has her sockie the “qualified holistic kinesiologist”, assisting her.

    You know what they say…no brains are better than two (such) brains.

  215. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 11:23 am

    So on Magnus was able to prove SIMILARITY, not differences, between smallpox and monkeypox.

    So, to prove that you’re a murderer, I only need to show that you are similar to a murderer?

  216. July 30, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Gray Falcon :

    So on Magnus was able to prove SIMILARITY, not differences, between smallpox and monkeypox.

    So, to prove that you’re a murderer, I only need to show that you are similar to a murderer?

    It’s a lot easier, you only need to kill.

    Smallpox and monkeypox have identical clinical pictures.

  217. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 11:31 am

    @ novalox: I’m not that old :-)

    My childhood chum died of polio, just before the Salk polio vaccine became available.

    My cousin caught measles, just as we all did, in my generation. He was left with permanent neurological sequelae due to measles encephalitis.

  218. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Lilady – i actually have learnt from a lot of the same ‘text books’ as yourself & doctors.. hmm so im not sure why you are putting yourself down like that!

    The only difference is ive gone above & beyond textbook theory!
    As i have a brain & intelligence of my own that i use!

    You have no idea what i do & I actually have saved many lives & continue you do so & help heal many aliments at the root.

    I dont band-aid people & inject them or prescribe them with something that will make them a lot worse in the long run.

    Unlike nurses just do as they are told & inject what ever the doctors tell them too…not much thought needed. In fact too many times it have been proven that they cant even get that right & inject the wrong viral or dosage. Causing a lot damage!

    You are only making yourself look bad & sound so immature in what you write!

  219. novalox
    July 30, 2012 at 11:40 am

    @lilady

    Not saying you are old. It’s just a story I remember from a while back when I was a hospital volunteer.

  220. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Smallpox and monkeypox have identical clinical pictures.

    Not according to your sources. Smallpox was a killer, and a serious one, monkeypox is far less dangerous. If it was indeed identical to smallpox, it would be leaving behind a similar trail of the dead.

    Sammy: That speech could also be used to justify one’s belief in executing people for sorcery. Please provide us with evidence, not drama.

  221. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Lawrence, im not answer your twisted question!

    Proof is all there take a look & read. Any concerns take it up with CDC.GOV as they are the ones stating it ;-)

    Of cause we all know some diseases can jump from animal to humans & some that cant… but this is whole other topic.

    This is another alarming reason that so many are health practitioners & parents are concerned, why on earth would they use African green monkey kidney cells & other animal cells in vaccinations! Its just asking for trouble & cross contamination. Scientists don’t know what they are crossing over & messing with really!?!

  222. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 11:54 am

    novalox…that’s why I put the Smiley Face there.

    My mother who was “that old” and who was also a Registered Nurse, told me about some of diphtheria cases she cared for in hospitals, as well as other vaccine-preventable diseases, which were serious in nature and which also claimed many young patients.

    Did you know that a qualified holistic kinesiologist must attend school for 100 HOURS!!!

    http://www.naturalhealers.com/qa/kinesiology.html

    Average Length of Study

    For most kinesiology degrees approved by the International College of Applied Kinesiolo
    gy, basic training includes 100 hours of study. More advanced study to become a “Diplomate” means 300 additional hours of instruction plus examinations.

    She is “qualified” to flip hamburgers at the local McDonalds.

  223. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 11:54 am

    @Sammy – since you can’t answer my simple question, you’ve proven your inability to speak with the adults.

    Cya.

  224. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Lawrence.. TEH EBIL VACCINES!!!

    So, instead of the one VAERS reporter who claimed he turned into the “Incredible Hulk”…will VAERS reports claim that vaccine recipients turned into monkeys?

  225. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Although yes there are a few smart nurses out there NOW that are now breaking free from theory & what they have been pumped up to believe, too many flaws & too much evidence –

    putinreloaded :
    Not all nurses are like the low-IQ shills in this site:

    “… I’m a critical care nurse, scientifically and medically educated, and have been personaly researching vaccines for 10 years. Vaccines are TOXIC, DANGEROUS, AND COMPLETELY INNEFECTIVE. They are also very, very profitable for BigPharma and their investors. If most of you would pull you head out of your a** and faced the truth, you would understand, as I do, why your “doctor” tells you to get vaccinated. Because it’s their business, their careers, their income, their profits that your ignorance supports. You want proof vaccines are poisoning millions? Look around you. You see any 30-40 year old autistics around? Do you know anyone older than 30 with Chrons disease? Ever see a child get a vaccine, then have a seizure and regress 3 years in development in oe week? Ever wonder why only the American gulf vets have “Gulf War Syndrome?” Ever wonder why vaccine manufacturers are the ones who make, test, and market their drugs…yet have COMPLETE liability protection under law? Ever wonder why other countries are right-now banning vaccines? Ever wonder why rates of every single immune disorder, including diabetes, asthma, Crohns, and rheumatoid arthritis are skyrocketing? You are NOT protecting your children by vaccinating. You are doing the exact OPPOSITE and you are garunteeing the medical establishment future business and investor capital. Search Dr. Salk polio SV40, MMR diabetes, aluminum adjunct, and thimerosal. Analyse the stock profits from pharmaceutical companies overthe past 20 years. Search vaccine death and injury statistics. Talk to parents with vaccine-damaged children. Realize the vaccine damage done to your own children…..and then come back here in 10 years and comment.
    Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/10/23/20111023vaccination-children-parents-reject.html#ixzz2270BDgqK

  226. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    @lilady – didn’t you see the latest SpiderMan movie? Evil Pharma is conspiring to turn us all into Lizard-Human hybrids.

  227. July 30, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    The only acknowledge clinical difference between monkeypox and smallpox in humans is the presence of lymphoadenopathy (enlarged lymph nodes) and lower contagiousness:

    emedicine.medscape.com/article/1134714-clinical

    “…The main differences are a greater degree of lymphadenopathy and a lower capacity for case-to-case spread…”

    It is known that, even though smallpox does not enlage the lymph nodes, smallpox vaccination causes it:

    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccination/reactions-vacc-clinic.asp

    “…When the vaccine was routinely administered in the U.S., the most common side effects included swollen and tender lymph nodes that lasted for two to four weeks after the vaccination site healed….”

    Well then, what a “coincidence”, most individuals contracting “monkeypox” had been previously vaccinated with smallpox!

    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/643.full.pdf+html

    “.. there is an increasing number of reports of monkeypox in individuals with scar evidence of having been vaccinated in the past…

    Conclussion: Clinical evidence points to “monkeypox” being a disease caused by the smallpox vaccine itself.

  228. July 30, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    lilady :
    Lawrence.. TEH EBIL VACCINES!!!
    So, instead of the one VAERS reporter who claimed he turned into the “Incredible Hulk”…will VAERS reports claim that vaccine recipients turned into monkeys?

    VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System) would like to collect the result of the vaccine experiment in your so generouly donated offspring.

    Access to teh VAERS database:

    Download ZIP file http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/vaersdatafiles/2011VAERSData.zip , open file 2011VAERSSYMPTOMS.csv in Excel adn search for “death”, there are 164 records. Search for “paralysis” and you get 172 records.

    Now don’t waste a minute and run to vaccinate your healthy kids! the outcome is important for the advancement of science!

  229. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    @putin –

    DISCLAIMER: Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not infer causality.

  230. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    @ Lawrence: (Not for the faint-hearted)…

    http://www.immunize.org/photos/polio-photos.asp

  231. July 30, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Lawrence :
    VAERS data does not infer causality.

    Illness immediately following a vaccine does not imply causality, but we’ re glad to claim causality when a vaccinated remais healthy!

    The double standards fo the pharma shills!

  232. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Fact: Vaccines are causing the major & alarming increase in Autism & CANCERS!
    (Thats science for you – Eradicate one disease & create a few new ones – its now been well documented above!)

    PLEASE RE-THINK & RE-EDUCATE!

  233. July 30, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    lilady :
    @ Lawrence: (Not for the faint-hearted)…

    Vacine Side Effects… not for the faint hearted!

    http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Vaccine-Injury-Photos-From-The-CDC

    Progressive vaccinia, a massive flesh eating infection caused by vaccination.

    Eczema vaccinatum (new illness introduced by the smallpox vaccine),

  234. July 30, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Sammy :
    Fact: Vaccines are causing the major & alarming increase in Autism

    When an increase in the number of doses received by infants correlates with an increase in the iincidence of autism – without any apparent cause – we claim correlation implies no causality.

    When an increase in the number of doses correlates with an increase in infant mortality rates – without any apparent cause – we claim correlation implies no causality.

    However, when then incidence of childhood infections drops following better hygene, better nutrition AND belatedly vaccines. we claime the cause is the vaccines!

    The double standards and tunnel vision of the pharma shills!

  235. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Vaccines are also mutating disease & making them come come back with strain that are worse & more resistant!

    http://www.jonbarron.org/immunity/bl100824/immune-system-boosters-whooping-cough

  236. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    ttp://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/pharmaceutical-industry-is-a-corrupt-marketing-machine-to-sell-dubious-drugs-new-england-journal-of-medicine-former-editor-marcia-angell-md/

    “Pharmaceutical industry is a corrupt marketing machine to sell dubious drugs – New England Journal of Medicine former editor Marcia Angell MD”

  237. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Vaccines WILL cause CANCER …

    6) Vaccines and Cancer –

    “I never saw cancer in an un-vaccinated person.”

    Dr W B Clarke, circa 1909

    We don’t usually associate vaccinations with cancer, but there are many citations in the medial literature where vaccines caused cancers. Sometimes cancer occurred at the site of injection and sometimes a lymphatic type of cancer would occur many years later in locations. Vaccines cause cancer. Yes, not everybody gets cancer after receiving a vaccine, but their body has been seeded with the ingredients for cancer to grow. Picture cancer as a window of opportunity. Once that window is opened, cancer can grow. Dr Vincent’s work with Biologic Terrain Assessment (BTA) found that all children were pushed into the cancer “window” after vaccines were given. Now those children who don’t develop cancer were (obviously) able to negate that cancer “window” with good nutrition. It is the environment which allows cancer to grow in the first place, and vaccines create that environment. When the cancer is at the site of the vaccine injection, it is hard to deny a causal relationship. Miraculously, doctors tell their patients it is co-incidental or unrelated to the vaccines.

    Yet, it was known in the 1800s that vaccines clog our lymphatics and contain toxic materials which could lead to disease, even cancers. Even Jenner himself had trouble with his vaccines causing diseases, and death. He was nearly lynched in one town for his specious concoctions. Our lymphatic system is designed to carry our lymphocytes throughout our body and maintain control over our cellular immunity. Therefore, the injection of large molecular sized proteins (foreign tissues in the vaccines) will clog our lymph-nodes and create problems for the lymphatic system. Therefore, it is no mystery that vaccines and lymphatic diseases, like leukemias and lymphomas, are related.

    “Syphilis, phthisis, scrofula, cancer, erysipelas and almost all diseases of the skin, have been conveyed, occasioned, or intensified by vaccination.” Dr William Hitchman

    “Cancer and other vile diseases are daily inflicted on virtuous families by vaccination.”

    Dr Edward Haughton, BAMD, MRCS

    “Experts say 98 million Americans who took polio shots in the 1950s and 1960s may get a deadly brain cancer from the inoculations … Researchers at the University of Chicago Medical Center say that a virus contaminated the polio vaccine and they have now found genetic material from the virus in a number of brain cancer victims.”

    Dr Jacob Rachlin quoted from Weekly World News of Lantana [FL]

    Of course, anything which depresses our immunity will eventually lead to cancer, since it is our immune system which cleanses and eliminates mutated (cancerous) cells from our body daily. If this is not done, cancers will grow and develop unchecked by our immune system. Therefore, a healthy immune system is needed to protect us from cancer and Vaccines Prevent Health.

  238. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    @Sammy – you just quoted someone from 1909 & the Weekly World News…..are you now also saying “Bat Boy” for the result of vaccines?

  239. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Here are the captioned photos from the CDC. Seems that some people don’t know what auto inoculation means and the pre-existing conditions that are contraindications to receiving the vaccine, and, that caused reactions from smallpox vaccine:

    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccineimages.asp

  240. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    @Sammy – how about the Onion? I’m sure you can find some good sources to quote from there as well….

  241. Sammy
    July 30, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Sammy :
    Lawrence, im not answer your twisted question!
    Proof is all there take a look & read. Any concerns take it up with CDC.GOV as they are the ones stating it
    Of cause we all know some diseases can jump from animal to humans & some that cant… but this is whole other topic.
    This is another alarming reason that so many are health practitioners & parents are concerned, why on earth would they use African green monkey kidney cells & other animal cells in vaccinations! Its just asking for trouble & cross contamination. Scientists don’t know what they are crossing over & messing with really!?!

    Lawrence:

    Vaccines and Auto-Immune Disease – [The injection of foreign animal DNA/RNA.]

    Auto-immune disease is common-place today, but were very rare just a few years ago. Does anybody wonder why one day we are healthy and the next day our body no longer recognizes our own cells as self? Could the injection of foreign animal DNA/RNA have anything to do with our epidemic rise in auto-immune disease today? Bart Classen, MD has done some remarkable research on vaccines and auto-immune diseases, especially Diabetes mellitus, which he sees as a marker disease for all auto-immune conditions. His research finds that the more that vaccinations are given the more diabetes (and auto-immune diseases) appears. Dr Classen’s research found that this held true for many animal models; after receiving vaccines they experienced increases in diabetes. Then he carried his research to include vaccinated human populations. He found that in retrospective studies of vaccinations in five different human populations, this fact held true also. The more vaccines one received the more was their incidence of diabetes (and auto-immune diseases).

    Now it is interesting that the increases in diabetes included Juvenile-onset diabetes, which we are told today is a profoundly “genetic” disease. Yet, Dr Claussen’s studies revealed that vaccinations [any vaccination] can cause increases in Juvenile-onset diabetes, too. Now one theory said that the antigenic structure of the measles/mumps virus was similar to the antigenic structure of the beta cells (which produce insulin) in the pancreas. So when our body makes antibodies to fight off measles virus, those antibodies attack the pancreatic beta cells, too. Viola diabetes!

    Vaccines create the foundations for auto-immune disease when foreign animal tissues are injected into our blood streams. It alters our genes (“jumping” genes) and creates havoc in our lymphatic system. Auto-immune conditions are more common today than before massive vaccination programs began in the 1940s. Auto-immune conditions such as ALS, MS, RA, and Diabetes are severe diseases and not to be taken lightly. They alter people’s lives for ever and cost more than money when we consider the time involved, the stress involved, and eventually death ensues. There is even some speculation that auto-immune conditions may be behind the brain conditions they see in autism and there is some talk in the medical literature of auto-immunity to brain cells. If the body can not even recognize its own cells, then it has been tricked into thinking that those cells are no longer self. Why does this occur? Could AIDS be an auto-immune condition where the lymphocytes are reacting against each other? What about the myriad of neurological disorders, kidney disorders, blood disorders and the many diseases associated with vaccinations? When we are looking for excellent health, we need to avoid auto-immune disorders. One must remember that Vaccines Prevent Health!

    [Note: Dr Classen feels that Diabetes is an indicator (marker) disease for auto-immunity.

  242. July 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    lilady :
    the pre-existing conditions that are contraindications to receiving the vaccine, and, that caused reactions from smallpox vaccine:

    Always, inevitably, blame the patient when pharma fails.

  243. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Lawrence: Remember Scopie’s Law…(and its variations)

    Scopie’s Law
    States: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Dr. Clarke from a 1909 article and the Weekly World News as credible sources loses the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    Where are all the sources from medical texts that Sockie Sammy *claims* to have used to acquire her McDonalds U degree in hamburger flipping?

    “Lilady – i actually have learnt from a lot of the same ‘text books’ as yourself & doctors.. hmm so im not sure why you are putting yourself down like that!”

  244. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    @putin – so, we recognize that there are people that should not be vaccinated (I have excema, so I am contra-indicative for the smallpox vaccine), and we’re blaming the patient?

    Your logic is faulty.

  245. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    @lilady – absolutely, my bingo card was filling up again. Anyone that cites information from a website that spouts garbage like the NWO, Aliens, and the other nonesense there has no leg to stand on regarding a debate on science…..back to reality, these guys can go stew.

  246. July 30, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – so, we recognize that there are people that should not be vaccinated (I have excema, so I am contra-indicative for the smallpox vaccine), and we’re blaming the patient?
    Your logic is faulty.

    The linking od Eczema vaccinatum to a previous history of eczema is another unsupported piece of vaccine adverse effect hogwash.
    .

  247. July 30, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    lilady :
    Lawrence: Remember Scopie’s Law…(and its variations)
    Scopie’s Law
    States: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    Emotional outbursts usually imply the perpetrator has no better resorce. It’ s more common with feminine brains, where logic has a tougher time getting through.

  248. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Lawrence…I’ve got Double Bingo

    (Sammy quoting Dr. Classen)

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines/classen3.html

  249. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    @lilady – damn, I was too slow on that one.

  250. Gray Falcon
    July 30, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Emotional outbursts usually imply the perpetrator has no better resorce. It’ s more common with feminine brains, where logic has a tougher time getting through.

    I’m a guy, and here’s my emotional outburst: Putinreloaded, you can keep pretending you have a life, that you have respect, that you are loved, but you and I both know the truth.

  251. July 30, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    Emotional outbursts usually imply the perpetrator has no better resorce.
    I’m a guy, and here’s my emotional outburst: Putinreloaded, you can keep pretending you have a life, that you have respect, that you are loved, but you and I both know the truth.

    Indeed it tells a lot more about you that about me.

    My condoleances to your family.

  252. July 30, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Bothe the country where I live and the country where I was born have not made vaccination compulsory by law.

    Simply because no human rights abiding country can impose unproven treatments on helpless kids.

  253. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Vaccinations aren’t mandatory in the US either – unless perhaps if you are in the military (but then again, the rules are different in that area anyway).

  254. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    BTW, on another blog, someone accused you of being an anti-semite, a racist and an AIDS denialist. You stated you are all of those things. Care to elaborate?

  255. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    @lilady – I would say, based on what is posted around the Internet, that would be an accurate representation of this individual’s views.

  256. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    @ Lawrence: Why don’t we let putin *clarify* his/her/its views?

    Did you visit putin’s website with a picture of Vladimir Putin fully armed? Putin is the former head of the KGB. He has gained control of the Russian government, to again put the Russian people under a repressive regime.

  257. July 30, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    If your pedatrist threatens you with Child Services for refusing to vaccinate your child, I’ve prepared a list of questions he should be able to respond regarding the unwanted treatment of your healthy child:

    1. Please quantify the personalized risk of my healthy, well fed child, who lives in sanitary conditions, ever getting disease X and dying or suffering serious sequels from it.

    2. Provide me with the double-blind placebo controlled studies that prove the efficacy and security of the vaccine you want to impose on my child.

    3. Provide the primary sources behind the claim that the lower incidence of disease X in my country is due to the vaccine.

    4. Provide the farmacokinetic studies (absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion) carried out on the individual ingredients of this vaccine and on the mixture as a whole.

    5. Prove that the neurotoxins contained in this vaccine (mercury and/or aluminium salts) are not going to be injected in doses above the limits considered toxic by the WHO and do not constitute a threat to my child’s health.

    6. Prove me with your risk/benefit analysis showing that this vaccine’s poses, to a child comparable to mine, a lower threat that the disease it pretends to prevent.

    7. Explain the scientific rationale behind the assumption that bypassing the first line of my child’s immunologic defences (the mucosa) through injection of exogenous antigens will not cause imbalances in its immune system.

    8. Explain how this vaccine can protect my child against a virus that doesn’t exactly match the variety used in its design.

    If your padiatrist is unable to provide you with this information, which is the right of every patient, then the treatment is unnecessary, unsafe or both. Refuse your consent and ask him to sign a declaration of his inability/unwillingness to respond.

    No person, whether healthy or ill, can be forced to undergo treatments of dubious necessity whose efficacy and adverse effects remain largely unknown.

  258. July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    lilady :
    Did you visit putin’s website with a picture of Vladimir Putin fully armed? Putin is the former head of the KGB. He has gained control of the Russian government, to again put the Russian people under a repressive regime.

    That’s the wittiest pro-vax argument ever posted on this website,,, congratulations!

  259. July 30, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    lilady :
    BTW, on another blog, someone accused you of being an anti-semite, a racist and an AIDS denialist. You stated you are all of those things. Care to elaborate?

    I am an AIDS skeptic, not an anti-semite because I have a lot of respect for the overwhelming majority of the semitic people: the arabs.

    For a “racist” I’ve had girlfiends of all colours and continents diring my lifetime of high, unprotected promiscuity (that never led to HIV positivity, either :D ).

  260. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    @putin – since you are so smart, you can quote for us the relevant sections of US Law (Federal or State will do) that require mandatory vaccination……go ahead, we’re waiting.

  261. July 30, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – since you are so smart, you can quote for us the relevant sections of US Law (Federal or State will do) that require mandatory vaccination……go ahead, we’re waiting.

    Straw man… I never pretended vaccination was mandatory in the US, however, Child Services have been engaged occassionally by pedantic doctors when some parents refused to consent.

  262. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    @ putin: If you expose your child to chronic hepatitis B infection during the birthing process, because you are a chronic carrier of the virus, your refusal to vaccinate your child with the vaccine and hepatitis B immune globulin within 12 hours of birth, will be referred to Child Protective Services.

    Furthermore, a judge will conduct a hearing in the maternity unit and issue an order to have your child receive the vaccine and HBIG, before he/she leaves the birthing hospital.

    Just so we know who we are dealing with…putin stated unequivocally, on another science blog, that he/she/it is an anti-semite, is a racist and is an AIDS denialist.

  263. July 30, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    lilady :
    @ putin: If you expose your child to chronic hepatitis B infection during the birthing process, because you are a chronic carrier of the virus, your refusal to vaccinate your child with the vaccine and hepatitis B immune globulin within 12 hours of birth, will be referred to Child Protective Services.

    It won’t stand in court because.

    1. Vaccinating after infetction is absurd,

    2. Hep B vaccine safety and effectivity can be easily undermined,

    But the best line of defense, th one I recommend to pregnant women, is to opt out of all blood tests. This way all these inespecific antibody-base diagnostics are bypassed, as well as the dangerous and unnecessary treatments they help push.

  264. July 30, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    lilady :
    J…putin stated unequivocally, on another science blog, that he/she/it is an anti-semite, is a racist and is an AIDS denialist.

    Citation please, and another ones on the relevance of politics in a discussion on safety and efficacy of vaccines.

    God you sound desperate, girl, to use those last-resource tricks.

  265. July 30, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    lilady :
    Furthermore, a judge will conduct a hearing in the maternity unit and issue an order to have your child receive the vaccine and HBIG, before he/she leaves the birthing hospital.

    I know this bullying method perfectly well… don’t need to tell me!

    Howerver, I know gynecologists who refuse such treatments and recommend them to every pregnant woman I meet.

  266. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    @lilady – remember, Putin is a patent clerk with no influence on actual, real science. He can spout off all he wants, define evidence any way he wishes, but ultimately, his opinion means exactly zero.

    Have fun sitting behind that desk, raging at the world. It must infuriate you that all of your core beliefs are rejected by the vast majority of people everywhere.

    All of that hate must burn you up inside.

    Go ahead, rage away, because it won’t change reality one bit. Thanks for playing.

  267. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    You’re just full of yourself putin..and full of it.

    Every country in the civilized world tests pregnant women for the presence of positive hepatitis B surface antigen…indicating infectivity. Every country follows the WHO recommendations to provide post-exposure prophylaxis (hepatitis B vaccine and HBIG), within twelve hours of birth.

    “Howerver, I know gynecologists who refuse such treatments and recommend them to every pregnant woman I meet.”

    No you don’t putin. You don’t know any OB/GYN who would put their medical licenses in peril, by not testing a pregnant women for the presence of hepatitis B surface antigen. You also don’t know any pediatricians who would put their licenses in peril, by ignoring the post exposure protocol for babies exposed to the virus, through childbirth.

    So clerk, not only are you anti-semitic, a racist and an AIDs denialist…by your own admission…you are a pathological liar, as well.

  268. July 30, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    lilady :
    You’re just full of yourself putin..and full of it.

    No, girl.. you medics are full of it. You believe you’re the guardians of the Holy Grail, you are imbued with a sense of authority over life and death.

    But your discipline is highly speculative, biased by industrial interests and self-preservation from lawsuits. It is not by far exact science.

    No speciulative doctrine can be given authority over individual rights.

    But I do know doctors who are not full of it. They helped people I now circumvent the Pharma/WHO imposed protocols in a case of mother-to-child transmission of HIV.

  269. July 30, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    lilady :
    No you don’t putin. You don’t know any OB/GYN who would put their medical licenses in peril, by not testing a pregnant women for the presence of hepatitis B surface antigen.

    Most of you do place your career before the interests of the patient.

    But there are OB/GYNs with integrity that went to jail for respecting what they saw as women rights, only to get acquitted over time.

    He was even brave enough to sign a medical report explaining his refusal to apply the MTC transmission protocol to a pregnant woman diagnosed with HIV, which he, personally, assisted during delivery at a hospital run by him. The child remaisn to this day healthy and untested for HIV.

    This is the future of things: the right not to undergo dubious diagnostic procedures and forego their corresponding highly iatrogenic “prevention” meds.

  270. July 30, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Lawrence :
    @lilady – remember, Putin is a patent clerk .

    No clerk is paid 12,000 euros a month tax free, and you kow that.

  271. July 30, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    lilady :
    So clerk, not only are you anti-semitic, a racist and an AIDs denialist…by your own admission…you are a pathological liar, as well.

    Said the pill clerk… Looking up pills on a manual handed over by Big Pharma is the job description of the lower medical clergy these days.

    You’re not paid to think, your decisions are pre-canned an bound by protocols imposed by the Pharma/WHO tandem, creativity and criticism means losing your jpb.

    Instead, my militancy in medical issues is not only obvious, but I reaches far beyond the keyboard as well, girl.

    I didn’t do extensive bibliographical research just to chat with a few prescription-pushing ignorants on a forum, it all has a practical use.

  272. Lawrence
    July 30, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    @lilady – now Putin is just being silly… Good for a laugh.

  273. Chris
    July 30, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    Apparently Putin (the real one) is afraid of these women.

  274. July 30, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Lawrence :
    It must infuriate you that all of your core beliefs are rejected by the vast majority of people everywhere.

    Oh my, what a poetic appeal to mediocrity, what a chant to the bliss of the herd.

    You live by fear of being rejected, probably were abused at home as a kid and harrassed by your rejecting peers at school.

    Look up Gauss Distribution IQ and learn where the “majority” stands :D

  275. July 30, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    lilady :
    No you don’t putin. You don’t know any OB/GYN who would put their medical licenses in peril, by not testing a pregnant women for the presence of hepatitis B surface antigen.

    Even more daring… he put his license on the line to avoid treating mothen and newborn for HIV:

    http://forums.questioningaids.com/showthread.php?t=7589

  276. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    I’m really having fun showing up the unemployed, unemployable, on-the-dole clerk.

    Just another deranged pathological, anti-semitic, racist, AIDS denialist troll.

  277. July 30, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    lilady :
    I’m really having fun showing up the unemployed, unemployable, on-the-dole clerk.
    Just another deranged pathological, anti-semitic, racist, AIDS denialist troll.

    Another sample of intelligen rebuttal from the Pharma lower clergy.

    How many pills did you prescribe today? :D

    Was it intellectually demanding to look the symptoms up in the Thick Book of Treatment Truth? Is your fat arse sore from the effort?

  278. lilady
    July 30, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    Unemployed clerk, I don’t prescribe medication.

    You’re getting crazier and crazier with your posts. Get some professional help for your delusions and your moronic posts here.

  279. July 30, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    lilady :
    Unemployed clerk, I don’t prescribe medication.
    You’re getting crazier and crazier with your posts. Get some professional help for your delusions and your moronic posts here.

    You have taken the discussion to the level that suits your childish intellect: name.calling, the only territory where you can possible “win” :D

  280. novalox
    July 30, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    @Chris

    Nice video you posted.

  281. July 30, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    novalox :
    @Chris
    Nice video you posted.

    Polio is no longer teh issue while Putin is around… cowards!

  282. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 12:27 am

    Why should we believe anything a pathological liar and an unemployed clerk says?

    Just another disease-promoting, germ denying troll.

  283. July 31, 2012 at 12:51 am

    lilady :
    Why should we believe anything a pathological liar and an unemployed clerk says?

    You’re full of ass-umptions and locked in name-calling mode… so room-temperature IQ…

    It’s POLIO stupid, not your personal psychotherapy board!

  284. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 12:57 am

    Putin, question. Are you aware what the consequences of you being in error would be? Do you understand why it’s so important that you provide evidence? Do you understand how many lives are at stake here? Do you understand that anger can be a perfectly justifiable emotion for others, and not just yourself?

  285. July 31, 2012 at 1:00 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Putin, question. Are you aware what the consequences of you being in error would be?

    That healthy kids would not be subject to cumulative, invasive treatments. The normal situation in a sane society.

    But for Big Pharma health is a disease!

  286. July 31, 2012 at 1:10 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Do you understand how many lives are at stake here?

    Yes, especially the lives of those who were born healthy and were killed or got their lives ruined vaccines.

    Life is risky enough to have to cope with man-induced disaese.

  287. July 31, 2012 at 1:15 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Do you understand that anger can be a perfectly justifiable emotion for others, and not just yourself?

    When you invest X years learning to make a living doing A, and then a Putin comes along and makes you understand that A was a total crock and your time was wasted and you did unspeakable damaga to others in the course of doing your A thing… yes, anger is a perfectly justifiable emotion indeed.

  288. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Putin, do you have any evidence for your statements? And by the way, omitting information is a lie. If I sold you a car, and neglected to tell you that it lacked brakes, than who would be responsible once there’s an accident?

  289. July 31, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Putin, do you have any evidence for your statements?

    Considering I always accompany my opinions with a source and corresponding quote, it’s funny you ask that, to say the least. In an honesty peagent you’d be the ugly one.

  290. Kelly
    July 31, 2012 at 11:01 am

    When you invest X years learning to make a living doing A, and then a Putin comes along and makes you understand that A was a total crock and your time was wasted and you did unspeakable damaga to others in the course of doing your A thing… yes, anger is a perfectly justifiable emotion indeed.

    Putin, we have all been laughing at your inability to understand basic principles. You deny germ theory for example.

    The only people that take you seriously are those unable to think for themselves and lack the background information to spot your lies.

    This is easily remedied by providing the information you leave out and explaining which we have done repeatedly.

    It’s really fascinating that you declare victory when everything you have said has been demonstrated to be false.

  291. July 31, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Kelly :

    When you invest X years learning to make a living doing A, and then a Putin Putin, we have all been laughing at your inability to understand basic principles. You deny germ theory for example.

    Theroies are questionable in science as there are so sacred dogmas. But you have made of your small speculative turf a matter of religion. You’ re afraid of change, but science is change!

  292. July 31, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Kelly :

    When you invest X years learning to make a living doing A, and then a Putin
    This is easily remedied by providing the information you leave out and explaining which we have done repeatedly.

    You were unable to debunk the shift to a much more restrictive diagnosis of “polio” in the 60’s, for example.

    This is the kind of huge incidence altering events that the vaccine culters prefer to ignore.

  293. July 31, 2012 at 11:14 am

    I repat: Kelly, yu were unable to debunk the shift to a much more restrictive diagnosis of “polio” in the 60′s, for example.

    This is the kind of huge incidence biasing events that the vaccine culters prefer to ignore to perpetuate the “miracuplus vaccines” myth.

  294. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 11:36 am

    @ Kelly

    Too bad the clerk is clueless about virology, epidemiology and case surveillance.

    What do you expect from the clerk, when it is mine quoting and cherry-picking? It is deranged, is anti-semitic, is a racist, is a germ-theory and AIDS denialist and a pathological liar.

    This troll reminds me of the the other one who always declared *victory* over science.

  295. July 31, 2012 at 11:49 am

    lilady you’ve been in “name calling mode” for two days in a row no, take a Valium!

    No arguments from the lower cleric? :D

  296. Kelly
    July 31, 2012 at 11:50 am

    @lilady

    I was just reading an anti-vax site on Facebook and our friend Putin had posted there. His arguments were corrected there too.

    You know you are in trouble when even your fellow anti-vaxers aren’t buying your arguments since anti-vaxers tend to unquestionably embrace anything that supports their pre-conceived ideas whether it is plausible or not.

    Poor Putin is a joke in both camps.

  297. July 31, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Kelly :
    @lilady
    His arguments were corrected there too.

    anti-vaxers tend to unquestionably embrace anything that supports their pre-conceived ideas whether it is plausible or not.

    Don’t let a good contradiction spoil your day!

    The anti-vaxer you talk about replied: “..Antibody sampling has been done of the adult population and 95% have immunity to measles….”

    This is harldy a correction, probably the anti-vaxer is not current to the fact that specific antibody titers don’t necessary mean protection:

    Assuming they are protective without clinical evidence, based on simple reactivity with the antigen, is not granted and cannot be assumed!!!

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X01002882

    What are the limits of adjuvanticity?

    Source: IRIS Research Center, Chiron SpA, Via Fiorentina 1, 53100, Siena, Italy.

    “…It is known that, in many instances, antigen-specific antibody titers do not correlate with protection..”

    the study goes on acknowledging total ignorance as to what constitutes a non-clinical measure of vaccine protecion:

    “… immunological correlates of protection are largely unknown for many infectious diseases…the immunological mechanisms of vaccine-induced protection remain unknown… whenever correlates of protection have been proposed, they only refer to serum antibody titers…there is complete lack of any parameter of cellular-mediated immunity known to correlate with protection…it is crucial to extend studies in the attempt to define correlates of protection for the most important vaccine targets… “

    Translation into plain English: Vaxers have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of what constitutes non-clinical evidence of protection!

  298. July 31, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Conversely, not all measles-specific antibody positives have been actually exposed to measles:

    False Positive Laboratory Test Results for Measles

    “..After noticing that several of the 16 IgM positive cases did not have a constellation of symptoms or risk factors usually seen with measles, the Section of Epidemiology arranged for all positive specimens ….”

    And the outcome was…

    “..Eight of the 16 persons who tested measles IgM antibody positive at the SPHL were also positive at the CDC ….”

    So in this case, 50% of the measles-specific antibody positives were actually misdiagnose.

    Just adding to the measles diagnostic chaos… hurry up go get your vaccines!

  299. July 31, 2012 at 12:07 pm
  300. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    Clerk, still cherry picking eh?

    Here’s the entire citation for that Italian article from Chiron. It speaks about the one adjuvant (aluminum) that has been used for more than 70 years in present day vaccines and the need to develop other adjuvants, and other routes of administration for vaccines that don’t exist, yet for other diseases where a vaccine has not been developed yet.

    You do know that Chiron is a major vaccine research company and a major vaccine manufacturer, don’t you Clerk?

    What are the limits of adjuvanticity?
    Author(s) Del Giudice G, Podda A, Rappuoli R
    Institution IRIS Research Center, Chiron SpA, Via Fiorentina 1, 53100, Siena, Italy.
    Source Vaccine 2001 Oct 15.:S38-41.
    MeSH Adjuvants, Immunologic
    Animals
    Humans
    Immunization
    Models, Animal
    Vaccines
    Abstract Vaccines developed traditionally following empirical approaches have often limited problems of immunogenicity, probably due to the low level of purity of the active component(s) they contain. The application of new technologies to vaccine development is leading to the production of purer (e.g. recombinant) antigens which, however, tend to have a poorer immunogenicity as compared to vaccines of the previous generation. The search for new vaccine adjuvants involves issues related to their potential limits. Since the introduction of aluminium salts as vaccine adjuvants more than 70 years ago, only one adjuvant has been licensed for human use. The development of some of these new vaccine adjuvants has been hampered by their inacceptable reactogenicity. In addition, some adjuvants work strongly with some antigens but not with others, thus, limiting their potentially widespread use. The need to deliver vaccines via alternative routes of administration (e.g. the mucosal routes) in order to enhance their efficacy and compliance has set new requirements in basic and applied research to evaluate their efficacy and safety. Cholera toxin (CT) and labile enterotoxin (LT) mutants given along with intranasal or oral vaccines are strong candidates as mucosal adjuvants. Their potential reactogenicity is still matter of discussions, although available data support the notion that the effects due to their binding to the cells and those due to the enzymatic activity can be kept separated. Finally, adjuvanticity is more often evaluated in terms of antigen-specific antibody titers induced after parenteral immunization. It is known that, in many instances, antigen-specific antibody titers do not correlate with protection. In addition, very little is known on parameters of cell-mediated immunity which could be considered as surrogates of protection. Tailoring of new adjuvants for the development of vaccines with improved immunogenicity/efficacy and reduced reactogenicity will represent one of the major challenges of the ongoing vaccine-oriented research.

    We see through your feeble attempts to appear to have a science education and your desperate need to feel relevant on this science blog.

    Try again Troll…your feeble attempts are so apparent…that you are an ignorant germ-denier, disease promoting delusional pathological liar.

  301. July 31, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    lilady :
    Clerk, still cherry picking eh?

    That’s your standard hysterical raeaction at every anti-vaxer quotation that rocks you boat. As I said… Valium!

    Here’s the entire citation for that Italian article from Chiron.

    You’re excellent at copypasting full texts, but when it comes to argue the a relevant point theres a huge sucking sound!

  302. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Tough being “outed” for your cherry-picked articles and your own interpretations, Clerk:

    “Translation into plain English: Vaxers have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of what constitutes non-clinical evidence of protection!”

    let me FTFY…

    Translation into plain English: ANTI-VAXERS have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of what constitutes non-clinical evidence of protection!

    Clerk…

    Get an education

    Get off the dole

    Get a job (We don’t believe that a grunt like you is employed…no less making 13,000 Euros/Month “tax free”)

  303. July 31, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Dear hysterical lowe cleric…

    which part of “It is known that, in many instances, antigen-specific antibody titers DO NOT CORRELATE WITH PROTECTION.”?

    I bet your pharma-sponsored indoctrination skipped that part!

    which part of “immunological correlates of protection are largely UNKNOWN for many infectious diseases…the immunological mechanisms of vaccine-induced protection remain UNKNOWN .”?

    I bet your pharma-sponsored indoctrination also skipped that part!

  304. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    LAWRENCE,

    There is nothing mandatory if you know your rights & know how to ‘Opt Out’.

    If your a concerned PARENT, concerned with all the risk factors from Vaccines & neurotoxins then you have a right to make an empowered choice!

    DO NOT LET ANYONE intimidate you, they do this just so everyone conforms & is kept in line!

    But if you are a concerned parent or health care worker then do more research & JUST SAY NO.. EASY!!

    They cannot hold you down & force you as this would be assault with a deadly weapon!

    I do not do anything that i am unsure of or do not agree with ..FINAL!!!

    I never get flu shot & RARELY get sick…if i do get a flu every few yrs im happy as i know its slowing me down, cleaning me out & building up my immunity, which is natural!

    Where as i see time & time again people who get the flu shot always seem to get sick & have migraines & fatigue & other health problems!

    They want to give a injection for everything these days & its just creating more complications!

    THINK TWICE!!

  305. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Statistics show its more the wealthy, intelligent & educated that OPT Out from vaccines & not the other way around!!!!

  306. Chris
    July 31, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Sammy, you are actually correct about the vaccines not being mandatory, and it is usually the wealthier who decline to vaccinate their children. That is precisely why it is often private schools need to shut down during outbreaks.

  307. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    We all know how free-rider ignorant parents can “opt out” of vaccines, based on personal belief exemption type of excuses, in 48/50 States. Mississippi and West Virginia are the only two States which have mandatory vaccines for children entering day care and public schools, Sammy.

    No matter where you live in the United States Sammy, you and the other “free-riders” will have your child(ren) who are unimmunized barred from entry into day care or public schools…in the event of a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak. Check each States’ Public Health and Education Laws to verify this.

    “Statistics show its more the wealthy, intelligent & educated that OPT Out from vaccines & not the other way around!!!!”

    So, where do you fit into that demographic Sammy!!!

  308. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Putin, you still haven’t answered my question. If somebody sold you a car, but neglected to tell you that the brakes weren’t working, who would be liable when you got into an accident?

  309. novalox
    July 31, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    @Gray Falcon

    Betcha she won’t answer the question.

  310. July 31, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Putin, you still haven’t answered my question. If somebody sold you a car, but neglected to tell you that the brakes weren’t working, who would be liable when you got into an accident?

    Mr. Bad Analogy, try to be relevant to vaccines for once, which is the issue at hand.

  311. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    HA! Well its show that Vaccines are prevent nothing, & evident they are only creating mutated diseases & are now linked to they dramatic increase to AUTISM, SIDS & CANCERs!

    WAKE UP WORLD…ITS NOT WORTH IT!!!

  312. Sammy
  313. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Mr. Bad Analogy, try to be relevant to vaccines for once, which is the issue at hand.

    Why is that dishonest for someone else but not for you? Why do you believe yourself above the laws of God?

  314. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Or, if you’re an atheist, do you think you are above basic ethics?

  315. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Research EXemption forms in your area & Opt Out – http://vaccineinfo.net/exemptions/index.shtml

  316. July 31, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Gray you’r full fo your ass-umptions.

    If you weren’t such a hypocrite you’d complain about the US gvmnt waiver of any responsibility for vaccine injuries to their manufacturers. Now that’s purposedly putting millions of lives at risk.

  317. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Both vaccinating and non-vaccinating parents are ‘equally’ entitled to child care assistance, and fee relief. Vaccination exemptions; either medical, religious, conscientious or through natural immunity, are included in Maternity and Child Care Payment Acts 1997, and 1998.

    School is compulsory, vaccination is NOT. In fact, it is normal and beneficial, for children to have these early childhood diseases. “Suppressing measles fever and rash by vaccination leads to cancer and degenerative diseases of bone and cartilage” Lancet September, 1985. It was also reported that a bout of Measles during childhood, may help to prevent asthma. Consequently, these early childhood diseases are there ‘to prime and mature’ the children’s immune systems.

    You are not bound to have your child vaccinated, for them to be eligible to attend school. A vaccination certificate may be demanded, but is not essential. You can present the blue book, and they may photocopy the relevant pages at the back.

    Dont by into intimidation tactics NO YOUR RIGHTS & MAKE EMPOWERED CHOICES!

  318. July 31, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Gray, if you wanna talk medical ethics tell me exactly where you believe my advice has is contrary to them.

  319. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Lies do not justify lies. Putin, are basic ethics beneath you?

  320. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Oh im in Australia actually!

    Im going to sleep I dont know why i bother here with this mentality! Sludgy!

    I don’t even have children so why do i bother…because i care…as i know many children, & i hate one sided-ness & i know the corrupt charlatans of Big Pharma / Big profit!

  321. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    @ Gray … lies ha that sounds like ‘Pot calling the kettle black’!

  322. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    @ Gray … lies ha that sounds like ‘Pot calling the kettle black’!

    So you admit you’re a liar?

  323. Chris
    July 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Sammy:

    HA! Well its show that Vaccines are prevent nothing,

    I have gone into the CDC Pink Book Appendix G and extracted out twenty years of data on polio. I want you to tell me why the rates of polio incidence went down starting in the mid-1950s. Please support your answer by posting the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers you are using as evidence:

    Disease: Polio in the USA
    Year__Cases____Deaths
    1953__35,592___1,450
    1954__38,476___1,368
    1955__28,985____1043
    1956__15,140_____566
    1957___5,485_____221
    1958___5,787_____255
    1959___8,425_____454
    1960___3,190_____230
    1961___1,312______90
    1962_____910______60
    1963_____449______41
    1964_____122______17
    1965______72______16
    1966_____113_______9
    1967______41______16
    1968______53______24
    1969______20______13
    1970______33_______7

  324. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    For another example of Putin being caught lying, check this out:
    http://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/26/vaccine-questions-answered-the-real-simple-way/#comment-10735
    Here’s a clear-cut case of lies by omission, as he leaves out all the years that fail to show a downward trend, and completely ignores the period after the introduction of the vaccine. Under what standard is that acceptable behavior?

  325. July 31, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Gray, care to address exactly where you believe my advice is contrary to ethics.

    If you can’t pin-point your criticism then you’re a troll and I’ll put you on ignore.

  326. July 31, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    completely ignores the period after the introduction of the vaccine.

    Very much on the contrary… I provide a very elabporated and documented explanation for the sudden drop in the apparent incidence of measles in the period after the introduction of the vaccine.

    My explanation discusses the more restrictive diagnosis of a “measles” case after the introduction of the vaccine.

    So stop claining the higher moral ground, hypocrite!

  327. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Putin, you gave an explanation, but your documentation contradicted your claims. That’s like trying to sell a car with a report showing the engine works fine, but ignoring that the brakes and steering don’t function.

  328. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    As an example Gardasil should have been taken off the market long time ago, with all the adverse & irreversible reactions & many deaths reported.

    But oh no lets just sweep it under the carpet & get back to business! $$$

    I say these sites that still say vaccines are still safe & effective regardless of all the evidence have man-slaughter on their hands, plan & simple!

    Its disturbing!

    On of many ….Gardasil News Warnings world wide – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_13plsrydPY

  329. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    And now you try to change the subject. Tell me Sammy, is that honest?

  330. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Chris you know that study is flawed as its not taking into account so many other things!

    20 years a lot has changes in the way we live & our wellbeing!

  331. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Thats Big Pharma for you make it look like they are Gods & eradicate disease …but have inflicted others twice as deadly ie. Autism & Cancer

    Merk Pharma Scientist’s said it himself from the beginning –

  332. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Sammy, they also say that you shouldn’t drink bleach. Clearly, bleach must really be a panacea they don’t want you to know about!

  333. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 3:08 pm

  334. July 31, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Putin, you gave an explanation, but your documentation contradicted your claims.

    Quote please. I don’t take unsupportied bullshit.

  335. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Quote please. I don’t take unsupportied bullshit.

    Here’s the latest commen from http://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/26/vaccine-questions-answered-the-real-simple-way/#comment-11472:

    The key words here are where acceptable laboratory tests are available. Since the measles virus itself wasn’t even identified until 1954, there couldn’t have been any widely used serology test available for it in 1951. You cannot do a serology test for a disease if you haven’t even identified the offending pathogen, therefore this is not relevant to measles. Try again please.

    You don’t take it, you just give it.

  336. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Gray, but your talking about car analogies so thought i would bring you back to topic! Thanks!

  337. July 31, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Sammy :
    Gray, but your talking about car analogies so thought i would bring you back to topic! Thanks!

    :D

    Mr. Bad Analogy is far out of his league…

    but he’s on topic after all… the vaccine market, just like the used car market, is a lemon.

  338. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    @putin – I thought you’d want to take Sammy to task for quoting Youtube instead of actual scientific citations? Any comment on the quality of her source?

  339. July 31, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – I thought you’d want to take Sammy to task for quoting Youtube instead of actual scientific citations? Any comment on the quality of her source?

    She isn’t dangerous to public health, your cult is.

  340. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    Sammy, I was demonstrating why your actions were dishonest with an example. You were trying to justify your deceit.

  341. July 31, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Mr. “Bad Analogy” Gray, you look ridiculous in your self.appointed role as the guardian of honesty… turn into a pumpkin instead!

  342. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Lol what on earth are you spinning? You must be getting dizzy by now! What actions exactly? & I dont have to justify anything! Proof is all around! Truth is leaping of the page hitting you in the face, i know it hurts as its cutting through all the lies you have been told about Vaccines!

  343. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Do you really think the phramaceutical companies are the only ones who support vaccines? I’ve seen the evidence with my own eyes, Sammy. It’s pretty clear who the liars are.

  344. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    @putin – how about putting your money where your mouth is?

    I’ll be more than happy to get the vaccine of your choice, if you will also inject the disease of my choice. We’ll see which one of us comes out ahead……

    Just to make it fair – it should be a disease that there is a vaccine for – so perhaps I’ll take the Rabies Vaccine & you can get injected with Rabies. We’ll come back around in 30 days to see how we both are doing.

    Deal?

  345. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Guardian of fabrication & B.S. more like it! God help science & our children!

  346. Sammy
    July 31, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    What crazy logic is on this site.. @ Lawrence – actually you should have the Vaccine & then be happy to be subjected to the disease ie. injected with the disease …& lets see how good the vaccine is & how you hold up!

  347. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Sammy, it was scientists who exposed Gardasil, in a peer-reviewed journal. If the big pharmaceutical companies were so powerful, how did that happen?

  348. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    What crazy logic is on this site.. @ Lawrence – actually you should have the Vaccine & then be happy to be subjected to the disease ie. injected with the disease …& lets see how good the vaccine is & how you hold up!

    That would if his argument was “The vaccine always prevents the disease.” Unfortunately for you, it isn’t, his argument is, in fact, “The vaccine is far better than the disease.” Tell me, is it honest to misrepresent your opponent’s position?

  349. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    @Sammy – you are the guys claiming the diseases aren’t so bad. I’m more than happy to get all the vaccines & you can get all the diseases. Actually, that’s a bit like what putin is asking for in a study – let’s see if kids are actually better off catching measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, etc vs. being vaccinated for them…..

    And Sammy, are you saying that is you were bitten by a rabid animal, that you would forgo the vaccine (the only treatment for rabies)?

  350. July 31, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – how about putting your money where your mouth is?
    I’ll be more than happy to get the vaccine of your choice, if you will also inject the disease of my choice..
    Deal?

    I’m available for experiments, but they must reflect reality: diseases in nature are not acquired by injection, my clever friend, so find a more realistic way to pass me the bug you deem causes the disase.

  351. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    PutinReloaded, do you know what an “animal bite” is?

  352. July 31, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    PutinReloaded, do you know what an “animal bite” is?

    Yes, not a natural transmission vector for measles or polio. Next?

  353. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    @putin – great. Let’s find a bat or raccoon (the typical carriers of rabies) and we’ll just let them give you a quick bite. Hand, foot, torso – that should work.

    I’ll be happy to report to my doctor’s office and get the corresponding vaccine.

    At that point, we’ll compare notes in 30 days (unless your brain has turned to mush by then) and see which one of us has the better prognosis.

    Thanks for being so reasonable.

  354. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    @putin – and just to be fair, we should probably make sure it is a true “carrier” of rabies, so we can get the best possible results.

  355. July 31, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – great. Let’s find a bat or raccoon (the typical carriers of rabies) and we’ll just let them give you a quick bite.

    Animal saliva carries more pathogens than rabies alone… so I accept on condition you get a shot for every pathogenic bug species found in the the racoon’s mouth… and for those without a vaccine you get a shot of coadjuvants alone.

    Deal?

  356. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    @putin – if you don’t believe in germ theory, rabies shouldn’t be a concern right? You have a strong healthy immune system, I’m sure. Plus all the hygiene you could possibly need.

    Who knows, maybe you’ll be one of the less than 5 people who have ever survived Rabies without treatment……

  357. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    Absolutely – unlike you, modern medical care will more than take care of whatever else I might be exposed to….though I’m sure you’d be just fine. I mean, it isn’t like Rabies is 99.8% fatal or anything without treatment….oh wait, it is – at least to the rest of us.

    Your non-belief in germ theory and hygiene should make everything okay, I’m sure.

  358. July 31, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – if you don’t believe in germ theory, rabies shouldn’t be a concern right?

    It is not. Where did you pull that I was concerned?

    You believe in germ theory and therefore, for the experiment to be fair you must accept a vaccine for every pathoilogical germ I accept.

    But I see you’re peddalling back already :D

  359. July 31, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    Lawrence :
    it isn’t like Rabies is 99.8% fatal or anything without treatment…..

    Rabies is just “idiopathic encephalopathy”, and since its cause is unknown, animals were quickly passed the blame.

    No germ you can inect me will cause me encephalopathy, I’m ready to test that with you.

  360. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    @putin – ummmm, where exactly do you see that? I said nothing of the sort. You seem to be the one sweating.

  361. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    @putin – LOL one of the funniest comments I think I’ve ever seen…..wow, I mean, really?

    I’m all up for the test now – let’s get this worked out. You’ll accept a bite from a confirmed rabies-infected animal (and whatever else might be in the saliva) and I’m happy to accept the rabies vaccine, along with vaccines for whatever else might be found in the saliva (if one exists) or just retrovirals or antibiotics to take care of anything else.

    To be fair, I get all of the “cures” while you accept all of the “disease.”

    Since you know you won’t be harmed by these “bugs” you have nothing to worry about – and I know I don’t have anything to worry about with the cure.

    Sounds like a plan to me. I can’t wait!!!!

  362. July 31, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – LOL one of the funniest comments I think I’ve ever seen…..wow, I mean, really?
    I’m all up for the test now – let’s get this worked out. You’ll accept a bite from a confirmed rabies-infected animal (and whatever else might be in the saliva) and I’m happy to accept the rabies vaccine, along with vaccines for whatever else might be found in the saliva (if one exists) or just retrovirals or antibiotics to take care of anything else.
    To be fair, I get all of the “cures” while you accept all of the “disease.”
    Since you know you won’t be harmed by these “bugs” you have nothing to worry about – and I know I don’t have anything to worry about with the cure.
    Sounds like a plan to me. I can’t wait!!!!

    Fair enough! I get the killer bugs and you the man-made disease… fair enough! I accept. Just tell me what the endpoints be for the experiment and the conclussion to be drawn.

    I’m afraid if I don’t get rabies you’ll just brush it off speculating that my immunity is “good”, making of the germ theory an infalsifiable one – which is unscientific.

    Is there a way to falsify the germ theory or is ti just religion?

  363. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    @Sammy – since Rabies is still a fairly large problem in Australia, do you agree with putin’s assessment that its “no big deal?” Would you also like to line up to participate in this little experiment?

  364. July 31, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Lawrence :
    @Sammy – since Rabies is still a fairly large problem in Australia,

    A clinical problem or a “serological” conundrum in the lab?

  365. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    @putin – well, since I am guaranteed to get the “cures” – we’ll have the guarantee that you get the “disease.” I would be happy to provide proof of vaccination, notarized, of course – plus notations of whatever antivirals or antibiotics I would take.

    You would need to provide confirmation of a Rabies diagnosis – that you tested positive. You would forgo any treatment for said disease & we would set a 6 month end-point – since with a positive test for Rabies & no treatment, you should either be dead or a vegetable at that point.

    If, at the end of 6 months, you aren’t dead or incapacitated and almost dead, I’ll concede that you have a fairly healthy immune system

    At the end of 6 months, I will undergo a general check-up – what parameters would be appropriate to measure, in your opinion?

  366. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    @putin – you are aware that around 55,000 people die each year of Rabies, aren’t you?

  367. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Sammy’s supposed “quotes” from 1985 issue of Lancet are from anti-vaccine websites.

    And Sammy, I don’t care where you live in this world. If your kids are unimunized during at outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease…they will be barred from licensed day care and public schools.

    About those rabies bites. I’m sure we could find a saliva specimen from a euthanized rabid animal and arrange for you to be scratched with a needle…then not receives the HRIG and rabies vaccine series. The further up on your body the better, to bring this vaxed -vs- unvaxed *study* to a quick conclusion.

  368. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    @lilady – putin would definitely be putting his money where his mouth is. If he truly believes that germs are not the cause of disease as he claims, this should be a no-brainer (literally in this case) for him.

    Either Rabies will kill him or not – either way, it certainly will answer the question.

  369. July 31, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – you are aware that around 55,000 people die each year of Rabies, aren’t you?

    What is called “rabies” manifests clinically as encephalitis. Causes of encephalitis a are largely SPECULATIVE:

    According to http://ehealthmd.com/content/what-causes-encephalitis

    Doctors know surprisingly little about the causes of encephalitis. Outbreaks of encephalitis in a community are usually linked to insect-borne viruses, like the West Nile virus carried by mosquitoes that sickened more than 50 and led to seven deaths in the New York City area in 1999.

    But many more encephalitis cases are isolated, and usually even the most diligent attempts to pinpoint a cause fail.

    Viruses and bacteria are BELIEVED to account for most cases, but a specific germ is positively identified in fewer than half of all cases.

    Emphasis on BELIEVED! … and still you pretend the infalsable germ theory is science! :D

  370. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    ^ a b c d e Drew WL (2004). “Chapter 41: Rabies”. In Ryan KJ, Ray CG (editors). Sherris Medical Microbiology (4th ed.). McGraw Hill. pp. 597–600. ISBN 0-8385-8529-9.
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  371. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    @putin – put that in your pipe & smoke it, moron.

  372. July 31, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Lawrence :
    You would need to provide confirmation of a Rabies diagnosis – that you tested positive.

    Why? if I remain negative after a “rabies” bite the failure is in your theory’s not mine! (always blaming the patient).

    You still have no answer as to what hypothetical experiment would falsify the germ theory… if none is conceivable it implies it’s not a scientific one.

  373. July 31, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    Lawrence :

    Floods are silly and meaningless.

    If rabies were really transmitted by animlas then you’d be able to synthesise the evidence available in a handful of experiments, not 100.

  374. July 31, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – put that in your pipe & smoke it, moron.

    Now post 1,000 verses from the Bible “proving” that God exists.

    Science is synthesis, but your theory of animal rabies seems to require obfuscation like the Epicycles that Ptolomeus proposed to explain why the Earth was the center if the Universe :D

  375. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    @lilady – I find it funny that putin, living in Spain, where the Spanish, unintentionally, of course, started the practice of “germ warfare” by spreading Smallpox and Syphilis to the native populations of North and South America – which allowed for the rapid colonization of those areas after a majority of the native populations were wiped out by those diseases (and others) – would be such an ardent denier of disease.

    I guess he’s discovered the real secret – just pretend they don’t exist and they will go away.

    And btw putin – my citations just show the tip of the iceberg in the amount of scientific evidence that shows how truly down the “rabbit hole” you are – the Red Queen would be proud. Is isn’t up to me, personally, to show how wrong you are – I have the evidence, as cited, to show you that you are – wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Thanks again for playing & showing how deluded the fringe elements can be – and that they don’t even have to be Americans to be crazy.

  376. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @ Lawrence: putin is either already infected with rabies (foaming at the mouth), or delusional from organic brain disease.

  377. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    So, here is what it boils down to:

    1) Putin – germs don’t cause disease because I say so. See, simple, therefore it must be right.

    2) Reality – mountains of scientific evidence, accumulated over a couple of hundred years, detailing everything from the transmission methods of various diseases, up to and including the DNA profiles, methods of treatment, identification of whole families of virus, developments of antibiotics, population studies, etc, etc. etc.

    So, things are because putin declares them to be….on the other hand, the entirety of medical science says that he’s full of crap.

    Hmmmm…….

  378. July 31, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Lawrence :
    – my citations just show the tip of the iceberg in the amount of scientific evidence

    The obfuscation card again,.. fallacious as can be.

    By giving dozens of references you never read, let alone digest, rather than constitutin “overwhelming evidence” it only proves you lack a clear vision of the issue at hand.

    Confusion reigns in your cult…

  379. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    @putin – so, the fact that we can track & expand upon the lifecycle of a disease, including its history, transmission methods, methods of treatment & control, etc. is “lack of clear vision?”

    Of course, your way is simple. Just deny everything.

    I bet you think libraries are a waste – since there are obviously “too many books” – I mean really, shouldn’t the dictionary be all you need?

  380. novalox
    July 31, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    @Lara Lohne

    And yet another non-answer form putin, how utterly predictable.

    And if putin resorts to another insult, well, that just shows the bankruptcy of her little “game”.

  381. July 31, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Lawrence :
    1) Putin – germs don’t cause disease because I say so.

    Even you show a surprising lack of faith in it, when you said:

    “You would need to provide confirmation of a Rabies diagnosis”</blockquote

    Excuse me? Do you mean taht getting the germ MIGHT NOT give me the disease?

    OK, so germsdo cause disease… Always? Sometimes? on Even or Odd days?

    Please specify. :D

    I’m laughing my ass off with the cult!

  382. July 31, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    novalox :
    @Lara Lohne
    And yet another non-answer form putin, how utterly predictable.

    About the falsability of the germ theory of disease? :D

    You keep your mouth shut on this like a whore beaten by her pimp.

    Iß m starting to believe you are ignorant of the meaning of falsibility and its implications to sceince and theories… s that really it?

  383. novalox
    July 31, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    @Lawrence

    As expected, another attempt at insult by the troll. How utterly predictable.

    Let’s see how long the troll tries to attempt another half-witted insult

  384. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    putin…We’re laughing and pointing our fingers at you for being such a fool.

    Thanks for playing Troll Bingo with us.

  385. July 31, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Lawrence :
    I bet you think libraries are a waste

    When cited in bulk, like you do?

    Here some references to prove the existance of god:

    – 1015 AD – Vatican Libray, Rome.

    That’s exactly what you did when challenged about rabies… I’m laughing my balls off! :D

  386. July 31, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    lilady :
    putin…We’re laughing and pointing our fingers at you for being such a fool.
    Thanks for playing Troll Bingo with us.

    You’re 3 days in a row now calling names… and blaming your bitter ignorance on the world.

  387. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    @putin – your rejection of actual science & experimentation, not to mention years of research & reproducible results – as opposed to “The Bible Proving the Existence of God” which is neither science nor a result which can be quantified, shows how deluded you are.

    Thanks to you, we are all winning troll bingo in this thread. Again, thanks for playing, it has been a barrel of laughs to see how far off the reservation we can get you to go.

  388. July 31, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – your rejection of actual science & experimentation, not to mention years of research & reproducible results .

    I challenged you to defend all the points of rabies as an animal transmitted disease one by one, paper ba paper, paragrahph by paragraph… but you hide under mommy Library’s skirt instead.

    Quit hiding behind a mountain of books you haven’t even read, fool…

  389. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    @putin – no

    Your prove my citation wrong, paper by paper, paragraph by paragraph.

    If you cannot, we can only conclude you are full of shit and concede defeat.

    See, we don’t have to play by your rules, you have no authority to define what is and is not evidence.

    Bye bye.

  390. July 31, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Lawrence :
    it has been a barrel of laughs to see how far off the reservation we can get you to go.

    Not as far as you when you doubted I woud seroconvert! Bingo!!!

    See you clown! :D

  391. novalox
    July 31, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    @Lawrence

    I bet you putin will attempt another insult to hide her mistakes and refusal to refute the mountain of evidence posted.

    And again, she will be proven again to be deficient in that regard.

    Also, I claim full house bingo!

  392. July 31, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    Lawrence :
    Your prove my citation wrong, paper by paper, paragraph by paragraph.

    That would imply doing your homeweorl and reading the paper for you, since citing in bulk is proof of no read.

    I already started citing medical acknowledgment of the speculative nature of causality regarding encephalopathy… and from there on you run to mom.

    Who used to do your homework when you graduated at school? :D … not me!

  393. July 31, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    novalox :
    @Lawrence
    I bet you putin will attempt another insult to hide her mistakes and refusal to refute the mountain of evidence posted.

    Scientific discussions bring concrete points on the table… mountains are a measure for selling horse manure.

  394. novalox
    July 31, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    I was right again, precious little putin resorted to another half-witted insult.

    Try a little harder, I need to start filling out my second bingo card.

  395. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Do you mean tah getting the germ MIGHT NOT give me the disease?

    OK, so germsdo cause disease… Always? Sometimes? on Even or Odd days?

    Please specify. :D

    I’m laughing my ass off with the cult!

    Since not everyone who has been stabbed has died from it, clearly, stab wounds are harmless.

  396. July 31, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Since not everyone who has been stabbed has died from it, clearly, stab wounds are harmless.

    Mr. Bad Analogy is at it again…

    A wound is an effect, not a cause. Are you implying the germ theory is also mistaking cause and effect, like your analogy?

  397. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    A wound is an effect, not a cause. Are you implying the germ theory is also mistaking cause and effect, like your analogy?

    That just changes my statement to “Since not everyone who has been stabbed has died from it, clearly, stabbing people is harmless.” Try again.

  398. July 31, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Here’s a better analogy of germ theory:

    Electric toasters are found more often in the homes of pregnant teens… therefore one major cause of pregnancy are toasters :D :D

  399. July 31, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    And if the pregnant teen has no toater the diagnostic is “idiopathyc pregnancy” of cuse unknown… though it is believed another home appliance is the cause.

    Bwahahahaha! :D :D

  400. July 31, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Good night, clerics!

  401. July 31, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    A wound is an effect, not a cause. Are you implying the germ theory is also mistaking cause and effect, like your analogy?

    That just changes my statement to “Since not everyone who has been stabbed has died from it, clearly, stabbing people is harmless.” Try again.

    Bad Analogy, it can’t be harmless since stabbing ALWAYS causes wounds moron.

    In contrast, germs not always correlate with disease.

    Good night, chldren!

  402. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Electric toasters are found more often in the homes of pregnant teens… therefore one major cause of pregnancy are toasters :D :D

    Shutting down an infected well stopped a typhoid outbreak. Use of antibiotics cured tuberculosis and ended literature’s Romantic period. For that analogy to be accurate, removing toasters would stop pregnancies. Germ theory is trusted not because of blind faith, but because it works. Try bothering to read the history of germ theory, rather than just believing in your own delusions.

  403. July 31, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Germ theory is trusted not because of blind faith, but because it works.

    It “works” except when it faiils ;D … but it doesn’t count or it’s blamed on the patient (antibiotic “resistance”, “mutations”, “low immunity”, “previous pathology”, and so on and so forth…)

  404. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    @putin – only idiots like you believe in absolutes.

    If a person is exposed to a pathogen and doesn’t get sick, we can actually determine the reason why.

    It may be any number of proven reasons, unlike your reasoning which “throws the baby out with the bath water.”

    By your reasoning, since not all sex results in pregnancy, sex doesn’t cause one to become pregnant.

    Unfortunately for you, we understand the mechanism of disease, which is why current medical science trumps your half-baked medieval theories of disease vapors, that went the way of the dodo once we could actually start identifying pathogens and charting the progress of disease.

    You keep promising to leave, but in a way I am glad you’ve stayed around to expose just how stupid you really are….or one of the most elaborate Internet Poes of all time.

  405. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Didn’t Troll say “good night”. I wonder if Troll can stick the flounce.

  406. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    Since bandaging a stab would doesn’t always save someone’s life, does that mean bleeding is harmless? Seriously, you’re trying to convince me that the history of the world is filled with ludicrously improbable coincidences.

  407. July 31, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – only idiots like you believe in absolutes.

    Well, only idiots believe in a theroy that can’t possibly be falsified.

    Falsability is a condition every scientific theory has to meet.

    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/08/ajb/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Falsifiability.html

    Falsifiability or refutability is the logical possibility that an assertion could be shown false by a particular observation or physical experiment. That something is “falsifiable” does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated.

    Show us how the germ theory would be experimentally refutable if false, or admit once and for all that it’s a just system of beliefs.

    I’m asking you for the 4th time… and try not to run in panic to mommy this time!

  408. Lawrence
    July 31, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    @putin – no

    Next?

    Hahahahaha

  409. lilady
    July 31, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    @putin – no…a thousand times no

    Next?

    Hahahahaha and hahahahaha

  410. July 31, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    Lawrence :
    @putin – no

    Now you can go celebrate Holy Communion with your personal Chatechism tutor.

  411. July 31, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    - Is germ theory falsifiabel?

    They say ” – no 1,000 times” as a chorus and they laugh :D

    Amazing… it stays here and bookmarked for posterity :D .D .D

  412. Chris
    July 31, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Sammy,

    I have gone into the CDC Pink Book Appendix G and extracted out twenty years of data on polio, which comes from the National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System (NNDSS). I want you to tell me why the rates of polio incidence went down starting in the mid-1950s. Please support your answer by posting the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers you are using as evidence:

    Disease: Polio in the USA
    Year__Cases____Deaths
    1953__35,592___1,450
    1954__38,476___1,368
    1955__28,985____1043
    1956__15,140_____566
    1957___5,485_____221
    1958___5,787_____255
    1959___8,425_____454
    1960___3,190_____230
    1961___1,312______90
    1962_____910______60
    1963_____449______41
    1964_____122______17
    1965______72______16
    1966_____113_______9
    1967______41______16
    1968______53______24
    1969______20______13
    1970______33_______7

  413. July 31, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Do the two Einsteins above think the law of gravity is falsable or not?

    Just curious about how far off the reservation they’ve gone :D

  414. July 31, 2012 at 8:39 pm

    Hell Chris… even the WHO recommends the scam of shifting to lab confrmation as soon as vaccination is in place!

    http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/measles_surveillance/en/index.html

    “…The laboratory classification scheme should be used by countries in the low incidence or elimination phase…”

    The “elimination phase” – and the moment to switch to lab confirmation – refers obviuosly to vaccination being already in place. This way the lower incidence caused by the more stringent diagnosis threshold can be attributed to the vaccines!

    M…fkers!

  415. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    To falsify germ theory, you would have to prove that every single case of it being right was a coincidence. All of them.

  416. Chris
    July 31, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    Putin:

    Hell Chris… even the WHO recommends the scam of shifting to lab confrmation as soon as vaccination is in place!

    Was that lab confirmation available for polio in the mid-1950s? What caused polio to decline in the mid-1960s?

  417. Gray Falcon
    July 31, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    Correction: To falsify germ theory, you would have to explain why it appears to work so well. For example, special relativity explains why Newton’s laws of motions work at speeds much less than the speed of light, while quantum mechanics only applies on a sub-atomic scale. Oh, and claiming that germ theory doesn’t work is like claiming that heavier-than-air flight doesn’t work. While on board a 747.

  418. August 1, 2012 at 6:36 am

    Gray Falcon :
    To falsify germ theory, you would have to prove that every single case of it being right was a coincidence. All of them.

    The same to prove that Tooth Fairies dosn’ t exist… you’d have to prove every single case of underpillow payment was coincidence.

    So the germ theory and tooth fairies are on the same footing :D

  419. August 1, 2012 at 6:50 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Correction: To falsify germ theory, you would have to explain why it appears to work so well.

    You’ve admitted it doesn’t work so well…. as exposure to a germ doesn’t necessarily lead to illness.

    The opposite is also true, measle-like and rabies-like clinical presentations are not always accompanied by the bugs.

    Also, in a 100 years the germ theory has failed to produce a cure for a single “viral disease”… a rowdy failure!

    It seems it’s you, believers, who need to do the eyxplaining here.

    For example, special relativity explains why Newton’s laws of motions work at speeds much less than the speed of light, while quantum mechanics only applies on a sub-atomic scale. .

    Gravity would be falsified if a mass in the vacuum and on the surface of the Earth will not fall in a straight path towards the center.

    Scientific theories allow for very simple falsification experiments.

    In contrast, in the experimental challenge you proposed (inject me with rabies) none of the two possible outcomes – positive or negative, illness or lack of it – would have any effect oon your “theory”. Therefore the germ theory is religion, not science.

  420. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 9:18 am

    Actually, there were numerous experiments that could have falsified. The Broad Street cholera outbreak is a classic example.

  421. August 1, 2012 at 9:24 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Actually, there were numerous experiments that could have falsified. The Broad Street cholera outbreak is a classic example.

    Hmmm… you take us back to a fuzzy epoch 160 back :D

    So please tell us what the falsification would have been like.

  422. August 1, 2012 at 9:34 am

    About cholera:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196609082751002

    “…Simple, inexpensive rehydration treatment is nearly 100 percent successful…”

    It doesn’ t seem that “killing the bug” is the cure for this disease, which should be necessary if the bug were the cause.

    So the falsification of germ theory here is that the most effective remedy doesn’ t address the germ at all.

  423. August 1, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Ooops! wrong link!

    About cholera:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp068144

    “…Simple, inexpensive rehydration treatment is nearly 100 percent successful…”

    It doesn’ t seem that “killing the bug” is the cure for this disease, which should be necessary if the bug were actually the cause.

    So the falsification of germ theory here is that a 100% effective remedy doesn’ t address the germ at all.

  424. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Would you mind printing the context for that statement? Because I’m not paying money to read that article.

  425. August 1, 2012 at 9:45 am

    More falsification of germ disease regarding cholera:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp068144

    “…At the hospital of the International Centre for Diarrhoeal Disease Research, Bangladesh, we annually treat more than 110,000 patients who have diarrhea. In 2005, among the 2216 patients in our sample surveillance system, 682 (31 percent) were infected with V. cholerae O1 or O139, but none of them died…”

    So we also have over 60% of “cholera-like” clinical presentations without the bug.

  426. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 9:46 am

    So please tell us what the falsification would have been like.

    If germ theory were not true, shutting down the pump would have had no effect. Since it did have an effect, reducing the cholera cases significantly, one can be assured that the theory was most likely true.

  427. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 9:49 am

    There are car accidents where both drivers were sober. Therefore, drunk driving is harmless. Seriously, putin, do you not understand that there can be more than one cause for a given effect? Of course you don’t. You want a nice, clean, perfectly certain world. No doubt you used to be given to religious fanaticism until you discovered even the Bible practiced situational ethics. So now it’s “New Atheism”, which allows you to make it up as you go along.

  428. August 1, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Gray Falcon :
    If germ theory were not true, shutting down the pump would have had no effect.

    Sewage water has an extreme complex composition.

    So by shutting the sewage water, even if cholera cases go down, you’re not pin-pointing the culprit at all.

  429. August 1, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Gray Falcon :
    do you not understand that there can be more than one cause for a given effect?

    If you understood that yourself, then you’d undestand that shutting down the sewage water pump simultaneously eliminates a large number of possible causes for the disease, and that it can’t in no way constitute proof of a single cause.

  430. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 10:12 am

    If you understood that yourself, then you’d undestand that shutting down the sewage water pump simultaneously eliminates a large number of possible causes for the disease, and that it can’t in no way constitute proof of a single cause.

    Not bad, but too bad it isn’t the only example. Read up on the history of germ theory. And know that there are no perfect solutions in this world.

  431. August 1, 2012 at 10:17 am

    know that there are no perfect solutions in this world.

    Know that clinging to imperfect theories stops the advancement of science.

  432. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Question for Putin. Do you have an explanation as to why shutting down the pump ended the infection, but nothing else they tried worked?

  433. August 1, 2012 at 10:19 am

    …it isn’t the only example. Read up on the history of germ theory.

    Don’t expect your opponent to provide your arguments for you.

    If you have nothing better I rest my case.

  434. August 1, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Question for Putin. Do you have an explanation as to why shutting down the pump ended the infection, but nothing else they tried worked?

    You’re asking for an explanation of why toxic waste is toxic?

  435. August 1, 2012 at 10:23 am

    ended the infection

    More assumptions. It ended a clinical picture of bad diarrhea, which you believe was caused by a bug, but it actually can have dozens of causes.

  436. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 10:30 am

    You’re asking for an explanation of why toxic waste is toxic?

    This was 19th century London. There were any number of potential vectors of contamination, including the food (poor quality), the air (smog), and the roads (covered in ****). If it were simply a matter of being “toxic”, then the water pump would have had no effect at all.

  437. August 1, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Gray Falcon :

    You’re asking for an explanation of why toxic waste is toxic?

    This was 19th century London. There were any number of potential vectors of contamination, including the food (poor quality), the air (smog), and the roads (covered in ****). If it were simply a matter of being “toxic”, then the water pump would have had no effect at all.

    Obviously it was caiused by sewage water I never contended that.

    So what’s your point?

  438. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 10:41 am

    So why was the sewage water causing it and nothing else? What was so special about the water, but not anywhere else? Again, if it was simply a case of removing toxins, then it would have been worthless against the sheer filth of London.

    Oh, and I know you have no problems demanding we do the work for you, but if you want other examples:
    Lister and antiseptics.
    Antibiotics and tuberculosis.
    Rabies. (Always fatal without treatment. Always.)
    Smallpox. (30% fatal, if it was still around, where are the bodies)
    Polio. (My parents grew up in that era, don’t try to pretend it’s still around)
    Diphtheria. (Trust me, you’ll be glad there’s a vaccine)
    And so on.

  439. August 1, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Gray Falcon :
    So why was the sewage water causing it and nothing else? What was so special about the water, but not anywhere else?

    First you should look up a list of all known non-microbial causes of diarrhea.

    Next you should look at the sewage and try to match its components to the items in your list.

    If you don’t follow basic elimination procedures, you might just assume that sewage water was infected with the “devil” and claim the disappearance of symptoms as the “proof”.

  440. August 1, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Polio. (My parents grew up in that era, don’t try to pretend it’s still around)

    OK i’ll be didactic and will guide you step by step.

    1. Post the WHO or CDC definition of “polio case” used in your parent’s era (I assume it was before 1954)

    2. Make a list of modern illnesses match the old definition.

    3. Look up their incidences and tell me how many cases of “pre-1954 polio” there are today.

    That should clear your doubts once and for all.

  441. August 1, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Rabies. (Always fatal without treatment. Always.)

    I told you the germ theory has yet to provide a cure for a single “viral disease”:

    http://rabies.emedtv.com/rabies/rabies-treatment.html

    “…There is no treatment for rabies that can cure the disease once symptoms appear. …

    If “fighting viruses” can’t cure, then viruses are not the cause of the disease.

  442. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Putin, I’ll ask you this: Where are all the bodies? Where are all the people dead and paralyzed from polio? This isn’t a game, and you need to understand that.

  443. August 1, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Diphtheria. (Trust me, you’ll be glad there’s a vaccine)

    Prove it works.

  444. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:00 am

    putinreloaded :

    Rabies. (Always fatal without treatment. Always.)

    I told you the germ theory has yet to provide a cure for a single “viral disease”:

    http://rabies.emedtv.com/rabies/rabies-treatment.html
    “…There is no treatment for rabies that can cure the disease once symptoms appear. …

    If “fighting viruses” can’t cure, then viruses are not the cause of the disease.

    Putin, if I severed your cartoid artery with a knife, no medical intervention would save your life. Clearly, the knife could not be the cause of your death.

  445. Sammy
    August 1, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Why are my posts being deleted???

    Vaccines dramatically, Suppress the immune system http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19324753

  446. August 1, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Putin, I’ll ask you this: Where are all the bodies? Where are all the people dead and paralyzed from polio? This isn’t a game, and you need to understand that.

    We can’t progress if you refuse to understand that the “polio” your parents saw is the same as Acute Flaccid Paralysis today.

    Where are all the people dead and paralyzed from the “polio” your parents saw? They are In the hospitals with any of these diseases:

    http://www.medicalchannel.pk/past-issues/volume-16/number-3/203-causes-of-non-polio-acute-flaccid-paralysis-in-children-residing-in-the-province-of-sindh.html

    The most common cause of non-polio AFP identified in this series was GBS (21%) closely followed by hemiplegias and encephalitis / meningitis present in 20.7%, 7.06% of cases respectively. 35.7% of cases consisted of miscellaneous causes not coded by the WHO for line listing. The analysis of the other causes of non- polio AFP revealed that the group of problems related to the peripheral nervous system (PNS) topped the list followed by joints and central nervous system disorders.

    All of these were “poilio” in your parents’ time.

    You can have an idea of how grossly exaggerated was “virus epidemic” then by looking at how many cases would have not been diagnosed as poliovirus if the tests had been available then:

    (same reference)

    A total of 7891 cases of AFP were reported during the study period. 7555 cases were diagnosed as non-polio AFP.

    7555 / (7891 – 7555) x 100 = 2248% !!!!

    poliovirus as a cause of AFP, in your parent’s time, was totally overblown!

  447. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Where all the cases of AFP? Where are all the bodies? Where are the thousands of corpses? Where is your evidence? Where?

  448. August 1, 2012 at 11:15 am

    Putin, if I severed your cartoid artery with a knife, no medical intervention would save your life. Clearly, the knife could not be the cause of your death.

    Mr. Bad Analogy can’t address the point once again. Diverts.

    Tell us what kind of damage the “rabies virus” causes directly that can’t be stopped.

  449. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Tell us what kind of damage the “rabies virus” causes directly that can’t be stopped.

    Brain damage, for one thing. Now where are all the ones dead of vaccine-preventable diseases? Where are they? Where are all the ones deaf from mumps, crippled by congenital rubella, left in iron lungs by polio? Where is your evidence? Where is it?

  450. August 1, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Where all the cases of AFP? Where are all the bodies? Where are the thousands of corpses? Where is your evidence? Where?

    Let’s take just one cause of AFP, transverse myelitis:

    http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/transversemyelitis/detail_transversemyelitis.htm

    Although only a few studies have examined incidence rates, it is estimated that about 1,400 new cases of transverse myelitis are diagnosed each year in the United States, and approximately 33,000 Americans have some type of disability resulting from the disorder.

    There’s an epidemic of pre-1954 “polio” in full force the US… and you’re a clown, my friend.

  451. August 1, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Gray Falcon :

    Tell us what kind of damage the “rabies virus” causes directly that can’t be stopped.

    Brain damage

    All non-microbial encephalitis cause brain damage, so it can’t be a direct viral effect.

    Tell us what is the direct molecular damage caused by the “rabies virus” that would cause the brain to swell.

  452. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Nowhere near enough. There were tens of thousands of cases of polio in the US before the Salk vaccine, and most of them far more severe. Now, where are all the bodies? Where are they?

  453. August 1, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Gray Falcon :
    Nowhere near enough. There were tens of thousands of cases of polio in the US before the Salk vaccine, and most of them far more severe. Now, where are all the bodies? Where are they?

    There is yet another cause of AFP:

    Table 1. Causes of AFP

    Acute Myelopathy

    Insecticide (organophosphate poisoning)

    And this was the picture in the 50’s:

    http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe50s/pests_01.html

    The Golden Age of Pesticides

    The 50s were the golden age of pesticides. But by the end of the 60s, the Golden Age had started to tarnish.

  454. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:43 am

    So, why does the use of pesticides not correlate to the cases of polio? Pesticide use didn’t really go down until the 1970’s, according to that very article you wrote. Also, where is your evidence that all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio? No, the numbers don’t count, that would be circular reasoning.

  455. August 1, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Gray Falcon :
    So, why does the use of pesticides not correlate to the cases of polio? Pesticide use didn’t really go down until the 1970′s,

    The source I cited says it ended in the 60s, so it correlates very well.

    What’s yours?

  456. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Really? Then why was that graph trending upward, while polio cases trending down? And how many cases of pesticide-caused myleopathy have been diagnosed recently?

  457. August 1, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Where is your evidence that all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio?

    I told you to lik up the WHO/CDC definition of “polio” case.

    As usual, you did no homework are are just tagging along.

  458. August 1, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    So, why does the use of pesticides not correlate to the cases of polio?

    Paralysis was not only correlated with the years or higher and careless pesticide spraying, but also with the pesticide season

    page 52 of http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2030720/pdf/pubhealthreporig01073-0085.pdf

    1952 – Observations on the epidemiology of poliomyelitis

    Seasonal Character

    … poliomyelitis has originated in early summer, reached a peak in September, and terminated in November or December (table 9).

    The seasonal distribution of poliomyelitis is one of the attributes of the disease which is difficult to explain solely on the person-to-person mode of transmission….

    They even admit it could’t be explained by a model of germ transmission :D

    Too bad the authors were too biased by germ theory to actually look at what was beeing recklessly sprayed on people’s food and property during those months!

  459. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    An article from 1950. The implication from that statement is “There must be another factor in transmission”. Let’s face it, you have no concept of honesty, the only reason why I still debate you is a misplaced belief that you might somehow start understanding right from wrong.

  460. August 1, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    The implication from that statement is “There must be another factor in transmission”

    No, they say the transmission model can’t explain the seasonality, implying there’s a different cause for it.

    However, the pesticide history, the pesticide season and the pesticide effects fit the epidemic like a glove. at three different levels::

    – multi-year time frame
    – seasonal time frame
    – clinical effects

    I rest my case!

  461. August 1, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    An article from 1950.

    Your parents’ bedtime stories you told us are a more reliable source, hypocrite.

  462. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Face it, Putin. You’re a liar. Nobody wants to talk to a liar. That’s all you are.

  463. Sammy
    August 1, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    IT IS CLEAR THAT WE ARE OVERDOSING ON VACCINES – JUST HAVE TO CHECK THE DOSE WITH THE FDA STANDARD TOXIC LEVELS & WE ARE WELL OVERDOSING OUR BABIES ON INJECTED TOXINS!!!!!

    SHAME on purposely misinforming people!!!

    Dr. Johnston, pg. 14-15 & 19-20: (Chair of the meeting and a pediatrician-immunologist at the University of Colorado): “Thimerosal is cleaved (in the body) into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate which is inactive… The data on its toxicity (shows) it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death.”

    “It is particularly a concern in multi-dose vials because of the issue of re-entry multiple times in the vials, and it is also important in the manufacturing process for a number of vaccine including inactivated influenza and some of the earlier DPT vaccine, and is a constituent of all DPT vaccines, but not all DTAP vaccines.”

    “There are three licensed preservative in the United States, Thimerosal, ethyl and phenol. We won’t talk about the other two today, but I thought I should mention them. Thimerosal is the most active and it has been utilized in vaccines since the 1930’s.”

    “Acutely, it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death, from overdose…

  464. Sammy
    August 1, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    It wont even let me paste the link!

    **** Here are some interesting excerpts from the SECRET Simpsonwood meeting minutes obtained under the Freedom of Information Act:

    NEURODEVELOPMENT DISORDERS RESULTING FROM VACCINE COMPONENTS

    Dr. Weil, pg. 24: “I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem.”

    “The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

  465. Sammy
    August 1, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    HUSH HUSH look whats going on behind the scene – i wonder what else they will find out in a few years – hopefully its not too late!

    **** Here are some interesting excerpts from the SECRET Simpsonwood meeting minutes obtained under the Freedom of Information Act:

    NEURODEVELOPMENT DISORDERS RESULTING FROM VACCINE COMPONENTS

    —————————————————-
    1601 N. Tucson Blvd. Suite 9
    Tucson, AZ 85716-3450
    Phone: (800) 635-1196
    Hotline: (800) 419-4777
    Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Inc.
    A Voice for Private Physicians Since 1943
    Omnia pro aegroto

    Selected vaccine authorities from CDC, FDA, and manufacturers discuss, in a closed meeting, the possibility of neurodevelopment disorders resulting from vaccine components.

    Emphasis and comments in square brackets added by K.P. Stoller, M.D.

    [The CDC published a study in late 2003, repudiating any possible link between thimerosal and developmental problems such as autism, but the CDC did have data supporting such a link which it secretively kept from the public.

    Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act detail the transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.

    This top secret meeting was held to discuss a study done by Dr. Thomas Verstraeten and his co-workers using Vaccine Safety Datalink data as a project collaboration between the CDC's National Immunization Program (NIP) and four HMOs. The study examined the records of 110,000 children.

    The transcript is titled “Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information,” June 7-8, 2000, Simpsonwood Retreat Center, Norcross, Georgia, but it was also the first official meeting of the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices which sets CDC policy) work group on thimerosal and immunization. In attendance were Walter Orenstein, Director of the National Immunization Program (NIP) at the CDC; John Modlin, Chair of the ACIP and on the faculty at Dartmouth Medical School; and 50 other distinguished members of the government (11 consultants from the CDC), academia and the pharmaceutical industry. Vaccine industry representatives were: Harry Guess, M.D., Merck, Chief of Epidemiology; Jo White, M.D., North American Vaccine, Clinical Dev. & Research; Barbara Howe, M.D., Smith, Kline-Beecham, Clinical Research Group; Mike Blum, M.D., Wyeth, Safety and Surveillance for Vaccine Development.

    Although this conference is apparently concerned with the effects of mercury in the form of thimerosal on infant brain development, participants seemed to have limited knowledge about mercury. None of the well known experts were invited, such as Dr. Ascher from Bowman Grey School of Medicine or Dr. Boyd Haley, who has done extensive work on the toxic effects of low concentrations on the CNS.

    The conference followed a study that showed that mercury in vaccines may have caused neurodevelopment problems.

    The following are in context excerpts of this 260 page transcript:]

    Dr. Orenstein pg 1-2 “(For) those who don’t know, initial concerns were raised last summer that mercury, as methylmercury (thimerosal) in vaccines, might exceed safe levels. As a result of these concerns, CDC undertook, in collaboration with investigators in the Vaccine safety Datalink, an effort to evaluate whether there were any health risks from mercury on any of these vaccines. Analysis to date raise some concerns of possible dose-response effect of increasing levels of mehylmercury in vaccines and certain neurologic diagnosis. Therefore, the purpose of this meeting is to have a careful scientific review of the data.”

    Dr. Bernier pg 8 : (Associate Director for Science in the NIP) “There was a Congressional Action in 1997 requiring the FDA to review Mercury in drugs and biologics…in October of 1999 the ACIP looked this situation over again and… said the vaccines could be continued to be used.”

    Dr. Johnston, pg. 14-15 & 19-20: (Chair of the meeting and a pediatrician-immunologist at the University of Colorado): “Thimerosal is cleaved (in the body) into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate which is inactive… The data on its toxicity (shows) it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death.”

    “It is particularly a concern in multi-dose vials because of the issue of re-entry multiple times in the vials, and it is also important in the manufacturing process for a number of vaccine including inactivated influenza and some of the earlier DPT vaccine, and is a constituent of all DPT vaccines, but not all DTAP vaccines.”

    “There are three licensed preservative in the United States, Thimerosal, ethyl and phenol. We won’t talk about the other two today, but I thought I should mention them. Thimerosal is the most active and it has been utilized in vaccines since the 1930’s.”

    “Acutely, it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death, from overdose…”

    “Dr. Halsey made a very impassioned plea that we do carefully controlled studies to in fact address the issues specifically, and that such studies be conducted by neurodevelopmentalists and environmental scientists employing specific endpoints of their study…”

    “We just recently had another meeting that some of you were able to attend dealing with aluminum in vaccines. I would like to just say one or two words about that before I conclude.”

    “We learned at that meeting a number of important things about aluminum, and I think they also are important in our considerations today. “Aluminum salts are important in the formulating process of vaccines, both in antigen stabilization and absorption of endotoxin.”

    “Aluminum and mercury are often simultaneously administered to infants, both at the same site and at different sites.”

    “However, we also learned that there is absolutely no data, including animal data, about the potential for synergy, additively or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two salts in vaccines…”

    Dr. Weil, pg. 24: “I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem.”

    “The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 31: “It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental health. Now it turns out that other people also thought that this study was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought we should do.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 42: “But for one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an under-ascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you would expect because the cohort is still very young.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significant above one.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 45: “What this represents is the overall category of developmental delays, of which I have excluded speech delays because of the impression we had was some of the calculations were driven by this speech group, which was making up about half of this category. After excluding this speech group, the trend is also apparent in this group and the test for trend is also significant for this category excluding speech.”

    Dr. Weil, pg. 75: “I think that what you are saying is in term of chronic exposure. I think that the alternative scenario is that this repeated acute exposures, and like many repeated acute exposures, if you consider a dose of 25 micrograms on one day, then you are above threshold. At least we think you are, and then you do that over and over to a series of neurons where the toxic effect may be the same set of neurons or the same set of neurologic processes; it is conceivable that the more mercury you get, the more effect you are going to get.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 76: “What I have done here, I am putting into the model instead of mercury, a number of antigens that the children received, and what do we get? Not surprisingly, we get very similar estimates as what we got for Thimerosal because every vaccine put in the equation has Thimerosal. So for speech and the other ones maybe it’s not so significant, but for the overall group it is also significant….Here we have the same thing, but instead of number of antigens, number of shots. Just the number of vaccinations given to a child, which is also for nearly all of them significantly related.”

    Dr. Guess, pg. 77: “So this essentially is a 7% risk per antigen, an antigen is like in DPT you’ve got three antigens.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: “Correct.”

    Dr. Egan, pg. 77: “Could you do this calculation for aluminum?”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: “I did it for aluminum…Actually the results were almost identical to ethylmercury because the amount of aluminum goes along almost exactly with the mercury one.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 78-79: “Then the last slide I wanted to show, there was a question of it there was any way from this data that we could estimate what would happen in the future if there is Thimerosal-free Hep B and Thimerosal-free haemophilus influenza vaccine and only DTP has Thimerosal”

    “The second column would be the same scenario but now at six months. Assuming they have received two additional DPTs, so between three and six months of age they have increased their ethylmercury amounts by 50 micrograms. If I do in this current cohort with all its limitations, because there is also the Hep B that exists in the cohort*, I can’t really take it out. It is significant for this one disorder which is language delay and is a combination of these two disorders, also becomes significant.”

    * Dr. Verstraeten could not determine which children got Hep B at birth in some cases so it was difficult to back the birth dose of Hep B out of the data.

    Dr. Bernier, pg. 113: “We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee of Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information*, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So to basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.”

    [*This never happened. SafeMind.org obtained this transcript via the Freedom of Information Act. Data published later were diluted into insignificance by including additional data from an HMO that had very uncharacteristic results.]

    Dr. Keller, pgs. 116 & 118: “…we know the developing neurologic system is more sensitive than one that is fully developed…”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 142: “But if I can have the next slide, here instead of the proportional hazard model, we did a logistic regression model. I didn’t use person time here and it’s a bit tough to define exactly the control group. However, if I do it for all ages and not looking at different years, and this is for speech, the outcome is almost identical to the proportional hazard model, which suggests to me that it is not a question of bringing the diagnosis forward, but it is really the overall number that drives this estimate.”

    Dr. Rapin, pg. 143: “I would like to make a comment. We have been focusing on all these acquired causes including mercury and prematurity, and you had a list of confounding variables that should be considered in future studies. What we know today about all of the developmental disorders is that environmental factors are in fact rather unimportant in the case of these deficits and the major cause is genetic…I find it a little difficult knowing this and putting in autism. The major cause is not environmental, it is genetic and that we are focusing just on these environment events or adventitious events when we haven’t considered, and you told us that you don’t have data for example on siblings, your study does not lend itself to considering the major variable.”

    Dr. Johnson, pg 144: “Well, I think the assumption is that those genetic predispositions would be randomly distributed.”

    Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: “But you don’t know that.”

    Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: “No, that’s an interesting assumption.”

    Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: “I understand that, but you don’t know that.”

    Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: “just on principle, Dr. Rapin, it seems to me that the more we learn about genetics or the more we learn about let’s say autism, the more we shift towards focusing on genetic causes, but would you rule out the possibility, and let’s move away from autism, that some of these are genetic predisposition and then the second hit?”

    Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: “Not at all. I think that it is in fact an attractive hypothesis.”

    Dr. Johnson, pg. 145: “Right, thank you.”

    Dr. Chen, pg. 151: “One of the reasons that led me personally to not be so quick to dismiss the findings was that on his own Tom independently picked three different outcomes that he did not think could be associated with mercury and three out of three had a different pattern across different exposure levels as compared to the ones that again on a priority basis we picked as biologically plausible to be due to mercury exposure.”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 161: “Wasn’t it true that if you looked at the population that had 25 micrograms you had a certain risk and when you got to 75 micrograms you had a higher risk.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: “Yes, absolutely, but these are all at the same time. Measured at the same age at least.”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 161: I understand that, but they are different exposures.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: “Yes.”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 161: “What is your explanation? What explanations would you give for that?”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: “Personally, I have three hypotheses. My first hypothesis is it is parental bias. The children that are more likely to be vaccinated are more likely to be picked and diagnosed. Second hypothesis, I don’t know. There is a bias that I have not recognized, and nobody has yet told me about it. Third hypothesis. It’s true, it’s Thimerosal. Those are my hypotheses.”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 161: “If it’s true, which or what mechanisms would you explain the finding with?”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: “You are asking for biological plausibility?”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 162: “Well, yes.”

    Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: “When I saw this, and I went back through the literature, I was actually stunned by what I saw because I thought it is plausible. First of all there is the Faeroe study, which I think people have dismissed too easily, and there is a new article in the same Journal that was presented here, the Journal of Pediatrics, where they have looked at PCB. They have looked at other contaminants in seafood and they have adjusted for that, and still mercury comes out. That is one point. Another point is that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don’t know how much you can extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect.”

    Dr. Orenstein, pg. 184: “Well, the second issue is we don’t know causality. We don’t know about causality, but is this something that really warrants some urgent attention?”

    Dr. Clover, pg. 187: “…no one around here is going to say that mercury per say is not a concern.”

    Dr. Weil, pg. 187 & 188: “Although the data presents a number of uncertainties, there is adequate consistency, biological plausibility, a lack of relationship with phenomenon not expected to be related, and a potential causal role that is as good as any other hypothesized etiology of explanation of the noted associations. In addition, the possibility that the associations could be causal has major significance for public and professional acceptance of Thimerosal containing vaccines. I think that is a critical issue. Finally, lack of further study would be horrendous grist for the anti-vaccination bill. That’s why we need to go on, and urgently I would add.*

    Dr. Brent, pg. 188-191: “I am impressed with the fact that some people here have information and believe that like the incidence of learning difficulties, behavior disorders and attention deficit is increasing in our population. I don’t know whether it is or it isn’t, but that kind of information you just can’t throw around and say it’s true or isn’t true without data. And it is such an important area in our society. I mean it is the thing that makes a human being different from the other species, so it is such an important area of research…”

    “…(thimerosal) Causing learning disabilities and behavioral disorders. ADD is a tremendous problem in our society and I think it is one that we should be very concerned about.”

    “Finally, the thing that concerns me the most, those who know me, I have been a pin stick in the litigation community because of the nonsense of our litigious society. This will be a resource to our very busy plaintiff attorneys in this country when this information becomes available. They want business and this could potentially be a lot of business.”

    Dr. Koller, pg. 192: “…As you increase the vaccination, you increase effects, but you don’t know. You have modified live viruses. You have different antigens. There is a lot of things in those vaccinations other than mercury, and we don’t know whether this is a vaccination effect or a mercury effect. But I am almost sure it is not a mercury effect. Positive as a matter of fact, and there are several experts particularly that have reviewed this, the methylmercury aspect who would agree with that due to dose response.”

    Dr. Johnson, pg. 193: “Are you really comfortable with the way the neurologic function was tested in the Seychelles?”

    Dr. Koller, pg. 193: “I have to admit that there were many other tests that could have been conducted…We are talking about very subjective, very sensitive assays and yes, there could have been others done and there should be more done…”

    Dr. Johnson, pg. 198: “This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with Thimerosal containing vaccines if suitable alternative preparations are available.”

    “My gut feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out at eight o’clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines.”

    Dr. Bernier, pg 198: “the negative findings need to be pinned down and published.”

    Dr. Weil, pg. 207: “The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary.”

    Dr. Weil, pg. 208: “The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. We don’t see that kind of genetic change in 30 years.”

    Dr. Brent, pg. 229: “The medical/legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”

    Dr. Meyers, pg. 231: “Can I go back to the core issue about the research? My own concern, and a couple of you said it, there is an association between vaccines and outcome that worries both parents and pediatricians. We don’t really know what that outcome is, but it is one that worries us and there is an association with vaccines. We keep jumping back to Thimerosal, but a number of us are concerned that Thimerosal may be less likely than some of the potential associations that have been made. Some of the potential associations are number of injections, number of antigens, other additives. We mentioned aluminum and I mentioned yesterday aluminum and mercury. Antipyretics and analgesics are better utilized when vaccines are given. And then every body mentioned all of the ones that we can’t think about in this quick time period that are a part of this association, and yet all of the questions I hear we are asking have to do with Thimerosal. My concern is we need to ask the questions about the other potential associations, because we are going to the Thimerosal-free vaccine. I f many of us don’t think that this is a plausible association because of the levels and so on, then we are missing looking for the association that may be the important one.”

    Dr. Caserta, pg. 234: “One of the things I learned at the Aluminum Conference in Puerto Rico that was tied into the metal lines in biology and medicine that I never really understood before, is the interactive effect of different metals when they are together in the same organism. It is not the same as when they are alone, and I think it would be foolish for us not to include aluminum as part of our thinking with this.”

    Dr. Clements, pg 247- 249: “I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough discussion really early on about which was the boat should go at all. And I really want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted, and we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging, even though I hear the majority of consultants say to the Board that they are not convinced there is a causality direct link between Thimerosal and various neurological outcomes.”

    “I know how we handle it from here is extremely problematic. The ACIP is going to depend on comments from this group in order to move forward into policy, and I have been advised that whatever I say should not move into the policy area because that is not the point of this meeting. But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. But there is not the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. And I am very concerned about that as I suspect it already too late to do anything regardless of any professional body and what they say.”

    “My mandate as I sit here in this group is to make sure at the end of the day the 100,000,000 are immunized with DTP, Hepatitis B and if possible Hib, this year, next year and for many years to come, and that will have to be with Thimerosal containing vaccines unless a miracle occurs and an alternative is found quickly and is tried and found to be safe.”

    “So I leave you with the challenge that I am very concerned that this has gotten this far, and that having got this far, how you present in a concerted voice the information to the ACIP in a way they will be able to handle it and not get exposed to the traps which are out there in public relations. My message would be that any other study, and I like the study that has just been described here very much. I think it makes a lot of sense, but it has to be thought through. What are the potential outcomes and how will you handle it? How will it be presented to a public and media that is hungry for selecting the information they want to use for whatever means they in store for them?”

    “…but I wonder how on earth you are going to handle it from here.”

    Dr. Bernier, pg. 256: “…As difficult as science is, there are two other equally tricky, complex challenges. The policy crafting has to take into consideration some very diverse and complex issues. There is another group that will deal with that, and then we have the communication and how we handle this, which I think I am no expert at, but seems equally daunting to me as the scientific and the policy issue.”

    “I don’t think we can set a rule here because some people have gotten these documents. For example, some of the manufacturers were privileged to receive this information. It has been important for them to share it within the company with the experts there, so they can review it. Some of you may have questions. You may have given a copy, but I think if we will all just consider this embargoed information, if I can use that term, and very highly protected information, I think that was the best I can offer.

    Excerpts from:

    Bob Chen, M.D., CDC’s chief of Vaccine Safety and Development, National Immunization Program

    Tom Clarkson, M.D., University of Rochester, New York, Mercury program

    John Clements, World Health Organization (WHO) representing expanded program on immunization

    Bob Davis, M.D., University of Washington, associate professor of pediatrics and epidemiology

    Bill Egan, Ph.D., FDA’s Center for Biologics, Evaluation & Research

    David Johnson, M.D., Michigan state public health officer, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)

    Dick Johnston, M.D., University of Colorado School of Medicine and National Jewish Center for Immunology and Respiratory Medicine, immunologist and pediatrician

    Loren Koller, D.V.M., Oregon State University College of Veterinary Medicine, pathologist, immunotoxicologist

    Martin Meyers, M.D., CDC’s acting director, National Immunization Program

    Walter Orenstein, M.D. CDC’s director, National Immunization Program

    Isabelle Rapin, M.D., Albert Einstein College of Medicine, neurologist for children

    Tom Verstraeten, M.D., CDC’s National Immunization Program presently employed by Glaxo-Welcome, vaccine company

    Bill Weil, M.D., retired pediatrician, representing American Academy of Pediatrics’ (AAP)

  466. August 1, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    In 1949 it was already acknowledged that changes in the definition of “polio” were behind the apparent “explosion” at the time:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598936/pdf/yjbm00342-0025.pdf

    Diagnostic nomenclature. There has been a decided shift in clinical concepts during
    the past twenty-five years as to what constitutes a case of poliomyelitis.

    For instance, more cases of non-paralytic poliomyelitis are so designated in the 1930’s and 1940’s than was the situation in the 1920’s. But, on the other hand, it has become increasingly difficult to define a case of non-paralytic poliomyelitis. For instance, in the present day when extensive muscle testing is performed, transient weaknesses lasting only a day or two have been designated as “paralytic cases”

    and thus the problem of definition has again shifted with a tendency for an increase in the relative percentage of paralytic cases.

    Priceless: definition shifts alone caused an increase in paralytic cases!!!

    FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!

  467. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    putinreloaded :
    In 1949 it was already acknowledged that changes in the definition of “polio” were behind the apparent “explosion” at the time:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598936/pdf/yjbm00342-0025.pdf
    Diagnostic nomenclature. There has been a decided shift in clinical concepts during
    the past twenty-five years as to what constitutes a case of poliomyelitis.
    For instance, more cases of non-paralytic poliomyelitis are so designated in the 1930′s and 1940′s than was the situation in the 1920′s. But, on the other hand, it has become increasingly difficult to define a case of non-paralytic poliomyelitis. For instance, in the present day when extensive muscle testing is performed, transient weaknesses lasting only a day or two have been designated as “paralytic cases”
    and thus the problem of definition has again shifted with a tendency for an increase in the relative percentage of paralytic cases.

    Priceless: definition shifts alone caused an increase in paralytic cases!!!
    FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!

    Interesting, but my question was whether all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio. That clearly shows otherwise. If I quoted you from earlier in the thread hto make it look like you believed in the tooth fairy, you would be screaming bloody murder. Why should you be held to a different standard? Why do believe yourself about right and wrong?

  468. August 1, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    Interesting, but my question was whether all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio. That clearly shows otherwise.

    Liar. This expands “polio” by adding non-AFP clinicals to the diagnosis.

    It does not exclude AFP, simpleton, because even today poliovirus remains in the AFP list, so it would be excluding itself :D

    Found the definition of “case of polio” before 1954 yet?

    Do some fucking homewerk! You act as if your parents are still providing for your every need!

  469. Sammy
    August 1, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    The Health Hazards of Disease Prevention – Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD

    You can read Dr. Tomlijenovic’s full 45-page paper on vaccine corruption here:

    http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf

  470. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    putinreloaded :

    Gray Falcon :
    Interesting, but my question was whether all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio. That clearly shows otherwise.

    Liar. This expands “polio” by adding non-AFP clinicals to the diagnosis.
    It does not exclude AFP, simpleton, because even today poliovirus remains in the AFP list, so it would be excluding itself
    Found the definition of “case of polio” before 1954 yet?
    Do some fucking homewerk! You act as if your parents are still providing for your every need!

    Sorry, this is your statement, you have to back up your own statements. You yourself acknowledged that earlier on this page. Now tell me, where does it say that all cases of AFP were diagnosed as polio? If you do not provide a conclusive answer within the next three comments, then it will be assumed you made it up.

  471. August 1, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Proof the WHO definition of “polio case” used before 1954 encompassed all cases of today’s Acute Flaccid Paralysis:

    http://whqlibdoc.who.int/monograph/WHO_MONO_26_%28part5%29.pdf

    on page 388:

    “Signs and symptoms of nonparalytic poliomyelitis with the addition of partial or complete paralysis of one or more muscle groups, detected on two examinations at least 24 hours apart.”

  472. August 1, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Note that no only the “polio” of the 40s and 50s hype encompassed what today is Acute Flaccid Paralysis, but the incidence numbers were counting nonparalytic poliomyelitis as well!

    Way to inflate the numbers prior to the vaccine!

  473. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    putinreloaded :
    Proof the WHO definition of “polio case” used before 1954 encompassed all cases of today’s Acute Flaccid Paralysis:

    http://whqlibdoc.who.int/monograph/WHO_MONO_26_%28part5%29.pdf
    on page 388:
    “Signs and symptoms of nonparalytic poliomyelitis with the addition of partial or complete paralysis of one or more muscle groups, detected on two examinations at least 24 hours apart.”

    That quote was the exact opposite of your claim. Note that it also included “Signs and symptoms of nonparalytic poliomyelitis”. In other words, not only would it have to have AFP (a single symptom), but every other symptom of polio as well. Your exact claim was that all AFP cases were classified as polio.
    You wasted another comment repeating your lie without evidence. You have one more try. Make it count.

  474. August 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    In other words, not only would it have to have AFP (a single symptom), but every other symptom of polio as well.

    Symptoms of non-paralytic polio are all-ecompassing as well. It’s all on page 388 as well:

    Non-paralytic poliomyelitis

    “AN illness characterized by fever, hedache, vomiting, sore throat, stiffness of the neck and back, pains in the back, neck, trun or limbs…”

    Looking at the list, a flu was “non-paralytic polio” in those days as well :D

    This extremely generic, inespecific clinical picture is common to all AFP, certainly the ones with a toxic cause.

    When this diagnostic chaos got fixed, in the 60s, the vaccine was credited for it … a crock.

  475. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Putin, you were asked a specific question, and you only succeeded in disproving your own statement, and showing that you know absolutely nothing about either polio or influenza. Any further attempts at conversation on your part will only be met with references to this exchange, as proof of your gross dishonesty.

  476. August 1, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    You can’t even phrase an articulate complaint, Mr. Hypocrite. Nobody knows what you try to say.

  477. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    Tell me, Putin, are you about good and evil?

  478. August 1, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    you know absolutely nothing about either polio or influenza.

    Influenza is an extremely common, recurrent disease for which the germ theory, after 100 years of fruitless speculation, still hasn’t found a hint of a cure :D

  479. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    putinreloaded :
    You can’t even phrase an articulate complaint, Mr. Hypocrite. Nobody knows what you try to say.

    Can you tell me exactly what you don’t understand? Here, I’ll use short words: That paper you used had some signs for polio that the flu does not have: “Pains in the back, neck, trunk, or legs, and hyperaesthesia,” and most importantly: “cerebrospinal fluid changes are usually found”. In other words, they were not morons who could not tell two diseases apart, like you are. Now tell me, are you above right and wrong?

  480. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    putinreloaded :

    you know absolutely nothing about either polio or influenza.

    Influenza is an extremely common, recurrent disease for which the germ theory, after 100 years of fruitless speculation, still hasn’t found a hint of a cure

    Do you really think that’s a valid argument? Tell you what. Cure all the world’s diseases and illness within a week, and I’ll believe you.

  481. August 1, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Gray Falcon :

    putinreloaded :
    You can’t even phrase an articulate complaint, Mr. Hypocrite. Nobody knows what you try to say.

    Can you tell me exactly what you don’t understand? Here, I’ll use short words: That paper you used had some signs for polio that the flu does not have: “Pains in the back, neck, trunk, or legs, and hyperaesthesia,”

    I was joking about the flu, obviously.

    Those symptoms are common to most illness, except hyperaesthesia which is common to many neurological diseases, including AFP.

    My claim taht pre-1954 polio encompassed all AFP spectrum stands.

    and most importantly: “cerebrospinal fluid changes are usually found”.

    “usually” means it was not a requirement for the diagnostic. The AFP symtoms were enough.

    Cerebrospinal certiamly are also common in the neurological diseases of AFP.

    You are a broken record and keep beating a dead horse.

  482. August 1, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Do you really think that’s a valid argument

    Absolutely. A theroy failing to produce a single result for a disease for 100 years and waiting, means the theory can’t understand the cause of the disease.

    It’s like spending 100 years trying to talk the Sun into rising from the West, and seeing no improvement, propose to keep talking to it for 100 years more.

    When is enough enough, hypocrite?

  483. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    putinreloaded :

    Do you really think that’s a valid argument

    Absolutely. A theroy failing to produce a single result for a disease for 100 years and waiting, means the theory can’t understand the cause of the disease.
    It’s like spending 100 years trying to talk the Sun into rising from the West, and seeing no improvement, propose to keep talking to it for 100 years more.
    When is enough enough, hypocrite?

    That’s not an argument. That’s whining.

  484. August 1, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    That’s not an argument. That’s whining.

    Itś basic philosophy of science. Persistent failing of a model to produce results means the model is wrong.

    Science advances by discarding bad models, as soon as possiible, and the germ mode of the flu as been stuck in the same place for a century.

    Science is not to blame for this deadlock, commercial interests are.

  485. Gray Falcon
    August 1, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    There was a time when an abscessed tooth was fatal. Nowadays, thanks to germ theory, it isn’t. The flu can now be prevented. So can polio, and smallpox. You call that a lack of progress. I have the numbers, you have lies.

    And the commercial interests in the nineteenth century were the patent medicine companies, while germ theory was supported by a few poorly-funded scientists. If commercial interest could really override science, penicillin would never have been developed.

  486. August 1, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Gray Falcon :
    There was a time when an abscessed tooth was fatal. Nowadaysbla..bla…

    I was contending that the germ theory cannot be the right model for the flu.

    You can’t counterargument that.

  487. August 1, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    If commercial interest could really override science, penicillin would never have been developed.

    And if Charles Manson had been really a serial killer, then you and I wouldn’t be alive.

    Fallacious generalization, you’ve been very badly schooled.

  488. novalox
    August 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    More lies and insults from putin, how predictable.

  489. lilady
    September 29, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Just ignore INF-b…it is spamming comments here because it is the insane Thingy troll’s sockie. It craves attention and has been banned at a number of science blogs, due to its nasty comments directed at parents who have children who have disabilities.

  490. October 13, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Hmm iss anyone else encountering problems with the images on this blog loading?
    I’m trying to determine if its a problem on my end or if it’s the blog.
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

  1. October 9, 2012 at 8:02 pm
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