Home > Parent Perspective, Testimonials, Vaccine Myths > Lara’s Story Part 2: Vaccines and Autism

Lara’s Story Part 2: Vaccines and Autism

March 8, 2012

Today’s post is a continuation of Lara’s Story: Growing Up Anti-Vaccine.  Despite being raised in an anti-vaccine household, Lara Lohne looked to science to determine whether she should vaccinate her own children.  After much consideration, Lara weighed the risks and benefits and proceeded to vaccinate with her children with confidence that she was making the best choice for the health of her children.

As an unvaccinated child, Lara had suffered many vaccine preventable diseases first hand. Although she had survived, she recognized that there was always a risk that her children might not.  Besides, she certainly didn’t want to see her own children suffer in the same ways she had.  By vaccinating them, she hoped to minimize the risks of vaccine preventable diseases in her family.  However, she knew that there was one thing vaccines could not prevent…or even cause.

And that would be autism. 

I must admit that it was through conversations with a coworker that I began to suspect something might be wrong with my youngest son.  It concerned me so much that I started looking for information online. I read some of the stories and they sounded similar to what I was experiencing with my son – with the symptoms, the regression and the age at which it all started to become apparent. He was born in 2007 and by 2009 he had already begun Early Intervention. 

Oddly enough, due to financial constraints she was dealing with at the time, Lara had yet to vaccinate her son.

Perhaps that bit of fate was a good thing since I might have fallen back into the anti-vaccine sentiment if he had been vaccinated prior to his diagnosis.  I hadn’t heard about the vaccine/autism link until after we suspected something.  Then I recall thinking, “Wait a minute, he isn’t vaccinated so vaccines didn’t cause it in him.” It was just a few months later that Andrew Wakefield was discredited so I figured that was the end of that. I assumed common sense and science would set the record straight. But I forgot how all-encompassing the anti-vaccine feeling can be.

Lara was determined to do all she could to support her son and over the years she has become very involved in autism organizations to help promote awareness and education.  However, this has required her to navigate a rather difficult road – one that requires support and understanding from the autism community, while also accepting her conviction that vaccines do not cause autism.

For the most part, most people I know are personally more focused on the autism aspect then the vaccine aspect. If it does come up, it’s usually something along the lines of every other story I’ve heard from the anti-vaccine autism parents; after the MMR shot their child regressed into autism. My son had difficulties from the day he was born – sensory difficulties, sleeping and eating difficulties and then some regression which we started noticing at about 14 months. But he didn’t get his MMR vaccine, or any vaccine, until after he received his autism diagnosis. I share this with people in hopes that my statement makes it pretty clear where I stand on the issue. Typically that is enough to avoid any argument over the suggestion of a vaccine/autism link. 

In Lara’s experiences she has found that the online rhetoric regarding vaccines and autism is very concerning, as people are willing to say things that they may never say to another person face to face.

What I’ve discovered is that in real life, people aren’t nearly as vocal about it as they are on the internet. Luckily, I haven’t experienced much controversy with other autism families that I deal with in person. However it’s like another world on the internet. This becomes unfortunate because a few loud voices against something can sound like a thunderous crowd.  In my experiences, the majority of parents of children with autism DO NOT blame vaccines. It’s just the ones that do seem to be louder because they are focused on the vaccines rather than the real issue, which is autism.

I can understand that their feelings in this regard are strong, just like the feelings my mother had against vaccines.  Over the years, I have tried to use scientific fact and my own personal experiences to address the anti-vaccine mind-set and the autism community but they don’t want to hear it. I’ve been insulted, called a liar, and even told that my son can’t really have autism if he wasn’t vaccine injured. I’ve even been threatened with physical violence by those most strongly entrenched in the anti-vaccine movement. All this has taught me that when you are with parents of children with autism, DO NOT let the topic of conversation get around to vaccines.

When it comes down to it, I will always stick up for vaccines.  But I don’t go looking for fights. I don’t want to get beat down because of my beliefs if I happen to find myself speaking to someone who is fervently anti-vaccine.  And in my experiences, if they’re anti-vaccine, they tend to be fervent about it.

What’s most disappointing is that within the autism community emotions run very high when you are engaged in a discussion pertaining to vaccines.  Before you know it, your differing views on vaccines have caused you to lose a friend and a member of your support structure.  Families with autism need all the support they can get from one another and when vaccines come into the picture, it’s too easy for that structure to crumble. 

Despite the nasty criticism that she has encountered over the years, Lara continues to remain engaged in the support of vaccines .

I continue to voice my opinion on blogs and articles because these are the places people with questions will be.  They need to know that not every child with autism was vaccinated and not every parent of a child with autism blames it on vaccines. When I find new vaccine website I go and check them out and see if they are worthwhile. I do the same with autism pages, but unfortunately I find that too many of them are devoted to non medical treatments and ‘cures’ so I typically leave after learning what they are about. Since I have this unique perspective I sometimes feel an obligation to share my experiences. I do still read the research studies that come out and when my children get a new vaccine I make sure to read the VIS so I know what to look for with regard to any reactions. I keep myself well-educated on the science of vaccines because it is the science, not the personal experience, that will lead us to the truth. 

In Lara’s experiences, she has recognized that people often assume that she is anti-vaccine because she has a son with autism.   This is common at the doctor’s office or in casual conversations with other parents of autistic children.

I took my autistic son to a new pediatrician and I knew he was due to receive some vaccinations.   The doctor was all prepared to defend vaccines and explain why they were safe and necessary. Before he could get started however, I told him there was nothing that would keep me from vaccinating my son. I know what these diseases can do and I know he didn’t get autism from vaccines since he didn’t have them until after. He visibly relaxed and said he was grateful to hear that side coming from a parent.  He explained that it is much easier for him to give a child their vaccines when the parent is on the same page as the doctor and doesn’t try to fight it. As I understand it, my son is the only child in this doctor’s practice with autism.

In talking with other parents of children with autism, we often confide in one another about how we started to realize something wasn’t right with our children.  Several common factors start to come up; the age, the regression and then when the MMR shot is mentioned I make it clear that my son didn’t get the MMR vaccine. They show a very real shock when I say this and even though it isn’t said out right, it kind of makes it obvious that I’m not anti-vaccine. Why would I be if the vaccines didn’t cause autism in my son? Science shows vaccines don’t have a causal link to autism, so it’s hard for me to understand why parents, even those with autistic children, can’t accept this fact.  Instead they put so much credit on their own personal recollections which can be faulty and unreliable.

Lara is a fascinating example of how someone can mature in their reasoning and critical thinking skills in order to effectively understand and appreciate the science that has proven vaccines to be safe and effective.  But does Lara ever feel resentful regarding the anti-vaccine misinformation she had been fed for so long?

To a degree I do.

I know that if I had been vaccinated, I wouldn’t have had to suffer through mumps at age 6, or pertussis at 17 which left permanent lasting damage to my lungs. I was fortunate I didn’t get sick more often than I did. I have received an MMR booster and last June I got a pertussis booster, but I’ve also been thinking about polio and meningitis since I have no immunity against them.  If only I had gotten vaccinated as a child, it wouldn’t be something I would need to be concerned about now. I’m thankful that most of my life herd immunity has protected me, but if more people choose not to get vaccinated that even herd immunity won’t protect me and that is why I’ve become concerned.

At the same time I feel that my past has given me a unique perspective. I’ve been there. I lived the anti-vaccine way of life. Granted it wasn’t my choice at the time, but because I believed it so profoundly, I would have chosen it at the time if it was my choice. Now, after reading the information that is available, seeing the results of the latest studies being done and feeling quite entrenched in the vaccine/autism debate because I have a child with autism, I can speak from multiple perspectives in this regard.

Granted anecdotes aren’t proof, but the anti-vaccine people only have anecdotes with regard to their vaccine/autism claims.  They have no hard scientific fact. My story doesn’t match theirs. I’ve been fortunate to have 5 neurotypical children before my sixth child was diagnosed with autism.  I believe that helped me to see the differences in him from birth where others may not have been able to, especially if the experience autism with their first child.  I try all the time to tell them I understand what they are feeling, because I have been there. But science can’t be denied. If it is than that’s just cherry picking information to fit a particular belief system and won’t ever get to the truth of the matter.

Lara has shared her story here in hopes that it will help others, especially those people who may be entrenched in the anti-vaccine frame of mind or who are uncertain about the vaccine/autism link.

These diseases are dangerous. Certainly vaccines have their risks, but they are far less risky than contracting the diseases they can protect against. And vaccines don’t cause autism.  Study after study shows there is a genetic component. There are also environmental factors, but research shows they are prenatal, not perinatal. If a child is going to have autism, he or she will develop it even if they are not vaccinated. The markers for that were determined months prior to the child being born. The equation to bear in mind here is, without vaccines, it’s possible a disease could claim your child’s life before you know if they have autism or not. Personally, even if vaccines did cause autism, I’d still get my son vaccinated because I’d much rather have him alive, then dead.

If you have a child with autism, have you ever had people assume that you are also anti-vaccine?  If so, how do you handle the situation?  Have you ever felt that the anti-vaccine rhetoric within segments of the autism community prevents you from getting the support you need for your autistic child?  If so, how? 

  1. Adam
    March 8, 2012 at 11:43 am

    I know that if I had been vaccinated, I wouldn’t have had to suffer through mumps at age 6, or pertussis at 17 which left permanent lasting damage to my lungs.

    Wonder what pseudoscience backs this statement up?

  2. Katie
    March 8, 2012 at 11:58 am

    I have a son who has an autism spectrum disorder it is PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified). He started to regress at 6 months. I don’t know what caused his either. At 2 weeks old he was also diagnosed with a heart condition called wpws (wolff parkinsons white syndrome). His heart would race and until they found the right medicine for him they would stop his heart with a medicine in a syringe and he would lack oxygen for a few momemnts. He had several episodes of that until he was 1 1/2 years old and they said that the wpws was gone. He had been getting vaccinated. It wasn’t the vaccinations that did it. It was the lack of oxygen. Plus I also have 3 other sons who have gotten vaccinated and they are perfectly fine. So I don’t know if there is a link between vaccinations and autism, but I still think that it is better to get your kids vaccinated rather than have them get more severe viruses or diseases.

  3. Mike
    March 8, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    Adam, thank you for saying what (I am sure) many of us were thinking;)

  4. Steve
    March 8, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    The article says, “Lara is a fascinating example of how someone can mature in their reasoning and critical thinking skills in order to effectively understand and appreciate the science that has proven vaccines to be safe and effective.”

    Well…no, Lara is a fascinating example of the influence parents can have and the importance of open communication between parents and children. Lara just rode a wave. As a child, she rode the (inconsistent) wave of her parents. As an adult, she just chose another wave. She’s not strong or independent. She gave in. She lacked proper information and felt hurt by her parents.

    A well spun article though, I applaud the author for using this story to support vaccines.

  5. March 8, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    I have one son with Autism. Because of financial constraints and a passing fever, he did not receive his vaccinations on time. Having a half-brother and an uncle with Autism, I knew the markers and knew something was “off” about him by 18mos. His language regressed and so did his social skills.

    Many forums and individuals assume I’m anti-vax when I’m the opposite. I’m very vocal and passionate about being pro-vax. A couple of my “crunchy granola” friends were suspicious of vaccinations and were leaning toward not getting their children vaccinated but I do believe I gave them information and clear rationale that helped them make the right choice.

    Part of why I am so ardently pro-vax is because I often watch other people’s children and babies are in my house a LOT. With four children in school, it would be so easy for one of them to bring home something deadly to a newborn like pertussis. I don’t want that on my conscience.

    Lastly, I have a dear friend who lost her first-born before he was 10. She also has a child on the spectrum and she can tell you, in no uncertain terms, how much she appreciates having a living breathing child on the spectrum to a child who is not longer alive. I would not gamble with my children’s lives (or other people’s children) out of some misplaced dread of Autism.
    When anti-vaxers talk their fear-mongering BS they are basically saying they’d rather have a dead child than an Autistic one. It ticks me off, to put it mildly.

  6. March 8, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    to put it succinctly; having a child with Autism is not anywhere near the end-of-the-world tragedy anti-vaxers make it out to be. Sometimes I really think they need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and get on with being a good parent. Tilting at the windmills of vaccinations is just time and attention they could be spending with their children.

  7. Steve
    March 8, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    Cassandra said, “With four children in school, it would be so easy for one of them to bring home something deadly to a newborn like pertussis.”

    Well, you can rest easy. Infants do not start to develop immune system responses (antibodies) until about 12 months. So it really won’t be your fault if one of your infants gets sick. Most babies receive their immunities from their mother while they are breastfeeding. (Just another reason to breast feed those babies!)

  8. AMO
    March 8, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    I am still on the fence about vaccinating, to know my position, but there are some inconsistencies in this article. To say that she grew up in a non-vax household, one where her parents instilled the fear of getting sick or even being damaged, “retarded” I think the word she used, and then to say that she was not aware at ALL about the reported link between vaccinations and Autism sounds very sketchy to me. Sounds like some fixed reporting here. And also, conveniently, even though she was so pro-vaccine, how did she not have enough money to get her children vaccinated? There are government programs that pay for this? This article sounds very fabricated to me.

  9. Christine Vara
    March 8, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    AMO, I want to assure you that this article is not fabricated and there hasn’t been any “fixed reporting”. I’m not sure how old you are but the fact of the matter is that years ago (most likely when Lara was a child herself), there wasn’t much discussion about vaccines and autism. In fact, there wasn’t much the average person knew about autism. Much of the vaccine/autism concern came about as a result of Andrew Wakefield, who Lara mentions hearing about around the time her son was being diagnosed. While I didn’t feel it was appropriate for me to question the specific financial circumstances that caused Lara to delay vaccinating her youngest (of 6) children, I do want to point out that not everyone realizes that there are government programs to help provide vaccines for children. There are many public health resources that the average person may be unfamiliar with. Lara also shared that she doesn’t have a physician herself at the moment, but since that information didn’t pertain to the story, it was not included. However, I took the opportunity to point out that there are public health departments that she could contact in her local area to help her determine which vaccines she might need and what they might be able to do to assist her with her children’s vaccines. It would be helpful to people in Lara’s situation, and yours as well, if we could find people who were supportive, rather than judgemental.

  10. March 8, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    While I can appreciate Steve’s view, I find it fascinating that he considers himself an expert on all things vaccine related and not – some parents are unable to breast feed, for a variety of reasons. Since he’ll want some “supportive scientific evidence” other than simply my say so, I had a nephrostomy tube during nearly my entire pregnancy, suffered through nine bouts of Enterostaphalaccocis and Psuedamonis in my kidney requiring nine separate pic lines for IV antibiotics. There was no way a doctor -ANY- doctor would let me nurse my daughter, born seven weeks early. Luckily, she did no NICU time, coming home seven days after I had her! However, I was warned, on several occasions, that infants CAN and DO contract illnesses from others – we have a set of nine year old triplets at the house, trust me, they bring home everything! – and we needed to be extra careful. As for the ‘wave riding’ – I suppose you could classify any parental change of status on simply choosing another ‘wave'; for her however, she finds she and her son are living proof that vaccines do more good than harm. That is all the scientific evidence she needs.

    As a parent, viewpoints change constantly – how that is not a mature reconsideration of all the material and information she has, both then and now, I’ve no idea. Apparently, Steve has all his opinions set, for the remainder of his lifetime, without room to grow or change. How limiting.

    Should Steve choose not to get his children (should he ever have any) vaccinated, that is, indeed, his choice. He should be aware however, that there are many more outbreaks of diseases not seen in this country for decades occurring, due to the parents that are not vaccinating, there is scientific proof that vaccines do not cause autism, and lastly, his obnoxiously glib “all the more reason to breastfeed those babies ladies!” is not only rude, but insulting.

    Lastly, I’m pro-vaccines from the start; that was my choice. I did the reading, I researched them, and in the end, the pos of getting them far outweighed the pros of not. I prefer to give my children the very best start I can in life – that means limiting the number of illnesses they could catch that have a very real chance of killing them.

  11. Lara Lohne
    March 8, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Christine,

    Just a small correction in the first quote, my son was born in 2007 and had begun Early Intervention in November 2009 (rather then 1990). I had suspicions that something was not quite right with him from birth (with the sleep and sensory issues and the tantrums and screaming fits) but it wasn’t until he was about 14 months old that the obvious symptoms of autism began to manifest. It was early 2010 when I first heard about the vaccine autism question, mostly because I was at that time trying to figure out what was going on with my son and because autism had never been a part of my life before, I unfortunately didn’t really know much about it, nor did I follow any stories regarding it. That year correction might make a little more sense in the timeline of things. Thanks.

  12. Christine Vara
    March 8, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Lara, I will make that correction immediately. Thanks for clarifying the dates for our readers.

  13. Amy Pisani
    March 8, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    One other important point regarding paying for vaccines. Not everyone is eligible for free vaccines although those who are unable to afford them should definitely call their local health department to determine eligibility. With regard to the free Vaccine For Children Program…Children through 18 years of age who meet at least one of the following criteria are eligible to receive VFC vaccine: A child who is eligible for the Medicaid program, A child who has no health insurance coverage, and American Indian or Alaska Natives.

    Many people may find themselves Underinsured (which means they have some insurance but no coverage for vaccines or large deductibles) – these families must attain free vaccines through a Federally Qualified Health Center (again, just call your health dept for info b/c no child should remain unvaccinated in this country due to cost barriers.

  14. AMO
    March 8, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    I try not to be judgemental, (try being the operative word). But if she was able to get Early Intervention and a diagnosis then how come she could not get vaccinations?

  15. Kelly
    March 8, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Well, you can rest easy. Infants do not start to develop immune system responses (antibodies) until about 12 months.

    This is incorrect. The fetus can produce antibodies in the womb and this continues after the baby. The science is difficult to summarize in a blog comment, so I direct the curious to this chapter on vaccine immunology starting on p. 31 under the sub-heading “Vaccine responses at the extremes of age” for a more detailed description.

    http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

  16. enkidu
    March 8, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    No antibodies until 12 months? That’s a load of hogwash. An infant’s antibody response might be classified as immature (compared to an adult’s) but it’s certainly not absent!

  17. Lara Lohne
    March 8, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    AMO,

    I was laid off when I was 5 months pregnant, my job was outsourced to another country. My partner was also laid off as he and I worked for the same company in the same department. Neither of us was able to find employment during the rest of my pregnancy (not many people want to hire a pregnant woman). I was on state medicaid while I was pregnant which covered the expense of my prenatal care and his birth.

    When my son was 5 months old, I was able to find a job. After my probationary period was over, I was open to getting health care coverage through my employer, however I didn’t make enough to cover the cost of living month to month as well as pay for coverage for my son, the company covered me and wouldn’t switch to cover him instead (I asked if they could, but they couldn’t.) I couldn’t afford day care on what I was making and with an infant at home, it made it difficult for my partner to try and find employment as I would have to take time off work to watch my son so he could go to interviews and such, so I became primary bread winner and he was stay home daddy.

    My son remained uninsured until he was about two. He was already exhibiting signs of autism but I couldn’t get a diagnosis without having some kind of coverage for him and our state had just implemented a new health care program for kids who were uninsured and he qualified under that. Once he was covered, we began the evaluation, He was just under 2 and a half when he was diagnosed with severe developmental delay and approved for state funded early intervention services (They generally don’t begin ASD evaluation until the child turns 3 years old, but he was delayed in language, gross and fine motor skills and social interaction so he qualified for Early Intervention). When he turned 3 he was to begin Special Education preschool program, but we needed to get his vaccinations current in order for him to attend. We spread them out over the next 6 months and by the time he was three he was fully vaccinated. In June 2010 was when he received the official diagnosis of Autistic Disorder, along with sensory issues and language delays. He remains covered by medicaid, as he’s officially disabled, and is still fully vaccinated.

    He has come a long way from where he was, he has some language, but is still significantly delayed and is mostly non verbal. He has the verbal skills of an 18 months to 2 year old and just turned 5 yesterday. He’s still in diapers and still has sensory issues, but they are preparing him to attend kindergarten in September at a regular school. I’ll be taking him to his pediatrician soon to get his 5 year old vaccines to ensure he can attend school.

    I’m so proud of everything he is able to accomplish and he makes me smile every day. I don’t believe he would be any different if he had been vaccinated, he only had mild reactions to the ones he’s received. Whether he had received vaccines before or after the symptoms set in wouldn’t have mattered, other then the fact that I might have fallen back into the anti vaccine mind set which I struggled so hard to get out of. The vaccines make no difference to his cognitive abilities, or disabilities, but they make all the difference in how I feel about them.

  18. Lara Lohne
    March 8, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Adam and Mike,

    No pseudoscience, just straight science. These diseases are preventable with vaccines. The MMR is generally administered starting at age 15 months. If my parents had vaccinated me, I would have been immune to mumps (which is the second M in the MMR vaccine) prior to the age of 6. Have you ever had mumps? It hurts, and it lasts for a very long time. Pertussis is also vaccine preventable. The lasting damage has been found by doctors who find it astonishing that I have the lung capacity of an elderly woman who was a chronic smoker, even though I’m only 41. That is the lasting damage from pertussis. I feel fortunate that I survived it, but would have much preferred not to have suffered from it to begin with.

  19. Tsu Dho Nimh
    March 8, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Lara – If you are worried about your lack of immunity to polio and whatever meningitis they have vaccines for, get the vaccinations.

  20. Lara Lohne
    March 8, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    I plan to the very next time I have a chance to visit my doctor. I’m not going to whine and tell you why I haven’t yet. The fact that I have a child with autism is a huge aspect of why. His care, health and treatment have been my priority. My personal resources are limited and most of those I have go toward my son. It might seem like no big deal to you to go to the doctor, but I promise you, my situation is vastly different from yours and I will leave it at that because my personal hardships and household financial situation don’t need to be displayed for everyone to see.

  21. VSS
    March 8, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    I find it strange that a person that can use medicare for prenatal care and childbirth had no idea about vaccinations. Why wasn’t her son covered under medicare almost immediately? Did her son receive the Hep B vaccine and the Vitamin K shot that are routine at birth? I don’t see anywhere where she opted out of those routine medical procedures. Did she sign waivers to deny her son that care? Unless her son is intact, I can’t see her having passed up the Vitamin K shot. Please clarify these questions so that I can truly believe her story.

  22. RTP
    March 9, 2012 at 12:18 am

    Can I just ask Lara. On your facebook site you don’t say that your son never received any vaccinations just that he was 18 months or so behind on his immunization schedule when he was 2 and a half (implying that he received vaccines for his first 6 months or so) and that he never received the vaccines which you believe are the sole defendants (ie assume you mean the MMR).

    Which is it? You don’t have to say if you don’t want to but it just seems that there is a discrepancy between what is on your facebook page and what is here that’s all.

  23. KathyH
    March 9, 2012 at 12:24 am

    I also want to add there is a discrepancy here about early intervention services. If your son was getting services as early as age 2, did they not offer healthcare services and vaccines?

    I am not challenging your story, just asking you to clarify it so provaxers can use you as an example. We hope you can clarify to help antivaxers understand your position and not doubt your words. Thanks.

  24. KathyH
    March 9, 2012 at 12:24 am

    RTP, what is her facebook site?

  25. RTP
    March 9, 2012 at 1:33 am
  26. Matt
    March 9, 2012 at 3:39 am

    Whether the babies have an immune system or not is not the question here, steve. It’s whether they come in contact with the disease in the first place. If her children weren’t vaccinated, then this could happen. While they are, it’s much more likely not to. Cassandra’s children getting vaccinated gives those babies the phenomenon known as herd immunity. WIthout it, they’d be very much exposed.

  27. Deb
    March 9, 2012 at 4:30 am

    That isn’t her Facebook site, unless her son has had a sex change operation. In the info it states that the site owner’s daughter is profoundly autistic.

    If her son was born in 2007, began early intervention in 2009 and was about 18 months behind in the schedule, he could easily have been in the process of diagnosis before having any vaccines.

  28. Deb
    March 9, 2012 at 4:32 am

    Sorry, replied in the wrong place above. That’s not her page, the site owner’s daughter has autism.

  29. VSS
    March 9, 2012 at 11:41 am

    I’m skeptical about this story since it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Please clarify whether or not her son received the Hep B vaccine and/or Vitamin K shot at birth. Considering Lara vaccinated her previous 5 children, I don’t see her declining the birth dose of the Hep B. If she did, why and what steps did she take to do it? When she mentions that her child didn’t get the vaccines that are linked to Autism, does she specifically mean MMR and/or Dtap? This would be a good story for the provax position, but until the questions can be answered it can be assumed that her son did receive Hep B vaccine at birth (since it is routine), and that would mean her stance and argument flies right out the window.

  30. Autismum
    March 9, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Lara, thank you s much for sharing your story which is, in many ways, similar to mine.
    My mother was sort of anti-vaccine in that she was just plain terrified of them after the DTP scare of the late 70s.
    I have a severely autistic little boy and yes, many assumptions about my opinions on vaccinations are often made by health professionals in that light.
    I too have had a lot of personal attacks and even threats made when I’ve stated that, even though it was clear there were issues with my boy from the outset, I vaccinated fully and on time. I’ve been accused of wanton disregard for his health when precisely the opposite is the case. Vaccines do not cause, exacerbate or trigger autism and I utterly resent the “warrior moms” who cultivate these myths and claim to represent mothers with autistic children when, ultimately, they only represent a faction and their own self interest

  31. Autismum
    March 9, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Sigh,
    Vit K is not a vaccine.
    Certain vaccines have only been linked to autism via fraudulent and experiments that have failed to be reproduced.
    Her child was, Lara states, born in 2007 by which time thimerosal was well and truly out of childhood vaccines if the “toxins” straw you’re grasping at and if the boy did just get Hep B at birth then that’s “too many too soon” out of the window too then isn’t it?

  32. Autismum
    March 9, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    Well said, Cassandra!
    My little autist attends a special school and being fully vaxed he’s playing a small part in keeping safe from diseases some of his school mates who have chronic medical conditions meaning that they cannot receive vaccines.
    xx

  33. Autismum
    March 9, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    ” having a child with Autism is not anywhere near the end-of-the-world tragedy anti-vaxers make it out to be.”
    I’d go even further – it is a joy. I have a big, bouncy, loving little boy. Who wouldn’t want that?
    He has autism. We deal with it and he has to deal with us just not getting him sometimes and yes, that can be frustrating but it isn’t a tragedy.
    I can’t bear the descriptions of children – of my son – that are soaked in morose sentiment and cast those children – and my son – as a burden on their families and society and less than human. It’s appalling.

  34. VSS
    March 9, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    Sigh, clearly, you are missing the point Autismum. I understand that Vitamin K is not a vaccine as evidenced in my writing. I need clarity on the topic and intent of this story. Is Lara stating that her son has never had ANY vaccine (including Hep B birth dose)? Or her son has never had a vaccine that has been linked to autism (MMR and/or Dtap)? Simple as that.

  35. March 9, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Lara I just wanted to say this is a wonderful story- thank you for being so open about your family’s experience and sharing your perspective. Your children are so lucky to have you as a mom. All the best to your family!

  36. chrisw
    March 9, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    America is different to other countries AMO, healthcare is not free for all like it is in Australia.

  37. Oliver
    March 10, 2012 at 3:01 am

    VSS, I would like to re-emphasize that vitamin K is NOT a vaccine. It is also not evidenced in your writing that you are aware of this, since the topic is vaccines and autism, and you seem curious about the vitamin K shot, along with the Hep B vaccine. Mentioning it here has no relevance to the discussion. Whether her son did or did not receive vitamin K at birth is a non-issue. As for the Hep B vaccine– why would you assume her son did have that prior to leaving the hospital, when you admit that you have no idea if he did, given that you have no information from Lara about whether he received it. Assuming things you have no information about, doesn’t mean that it’s true. You can assume anything you want, but that doesn’t mean you are correct, or that it makes sense to do so. Some people do decline the birth dose of Hep B before leaving the hospital, choosing to get it in the doctor’s office. It’s perfectly plausible that Lara did this, but that her financial situation was such that she did not do any vaccines in the office when it came time for it. From what I can tell, anti-vaccine advocates are grasping at straws, because Lara’s story is so powerful, for the pro-vaccine position. Take for example, Steve’s comment. There is no real counterposition to the vaccine/autism link, …so, instead he insults Lara? By saying that she is “riding a wave?” So, now, the fact that Lara grew up one way, in a household where she was taught something by her mom (with, essentially, no choice in the matter, at such an impressionable young age) is now “riding a wave?” And, then, doing research and reviewing the science (or, as anti-vaxxers INSIST that everyone does — “do your homework!”), and doing ALL her homework, she educates herself about vaccines, in a way that her parents did not. She learns, grows, and changes her view based on information, researching the studies, and using critical thinking; and, somehow, the fact that she changed her views of vaccines based on becoming educated by the experts in the field, she is suddenly “riding another wave?” Wow, Steve. Grasp at straws much? Nice try on spinning the point of this article, turning it around to make Lara look like the enemy, since your anti-vaccine sentiments have no sustaining power, when they come up against Lara’s story/experience. She’s not strong or independent? Says you, someone who I have to believe has never met her. Nice try, Steve. I think that going against your parents beliefs, ones that have been ingrained in your mind early on, DOES make you strong and independent to go another way, by questioning what you’ve been taught, demanding knowledge, evidence, and support to back it up, knowing your family won’t approve if you make a decision that differs from their stance. Want to try again, with a post that involves some science, and not insults that suit your agenda? Because, clearly, you don’t understand science/medicine, if you think that breastfeeding is a cure-all, especially against VPD’s.

  38. Chris
    March 10, 2012 at 3:23 am

    Oliver, while I agree with the general sentiment, I have one comment: paragraphs.

    Please, visualize white space as a way to make your prose reader friendly. You have a strong statement, make it so we want to read it.

  39. Kevin J
    March 10, 2012 at 9:51 am

    This is all very convincing….to most. Why?? Because most read it from a pro-vaccine website. What’s 2+2 ?? Very good, now on to more research that u should be doing.
    A newborn is pumped full of toxins (check the amount) in the first hours of it’s life. How about the law that was trying to be passed to vaccinate your teen daughters with a cervical cancer vaccination, from Merck, of all the “trusted” Pharma

  40. Kevin J
    March 10, 2012 at 9:54 am

    This is all very convincing….to most. Why?? Because most read it from a pro-vaccine website. What’s 2+2 ?? Very good, now on to more research that u should be doing.
    A newborn is pumped full of toxins (check the amount) in the first hours of it’s life. How about the law that was trying to be passed to vaccinate your teen daughters with a cervical cancer vaccination, from Merck, of all the “trusted” Pharma …companies out there. Do any of u know some of the history behind Merck and their “healing” drugs.
    Are u kidding me??? A vaccination for cervical cancer???? Come on people.
    It’s all about the money, not health.
    Go investigate yourself, from a website like Dr. Mercola’s. Educate yourself!!! Please!!!

  41. Chris
    March 10, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Certainly, Kevin J. Just list those “toxins” and tell us how they compare to tetanospasmin. It might help if you actually learned what a toxin is:

    a poisonous substance produced within living cells or organisms; man-made substances created by artificial processes are thus excluded.

    And please don’t cite supplement salesmen like Mercola as authorities of anything other than knowing how to take cash from your wallet.

  42. enkidu
    March 10, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Apparently Kevin J is pro-cervical cancer….? I don’t really see anything else behind his argument besides 1) he laughs questions protection from cancer and 2) “it’s all about money.” Tell me Kevin J, do you have a job and do you get paid for it?

  43. March 10, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    VSS :
    Is Lara stating that her son has never had ANY vaccine (including Hep B birth dose)? Or her son has never had a vaccine that has been linked to autism (MMR and/or Dtap)? Simple as that.

    When you consider that a 2009 MMWR report from the CDC stated that only about 55% of newborns had a dose of the hepatitis B vaccine by 3 days (the birth dose), it would not be surprising if she left the hospital without being vaccinated.

  44. Oliver
    March 10, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Fair enough :)

  45. Oliver
    March 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I personally like how Kevin makes the comment that “it’s all about the money,” and, then suggests that you get your information (“educate yourself!!!) from “doctor” Mercola, as a TRUSTED source. Because, ya know, Dr. Mercola doesn’t make any money off of his vaccine position, right? I wonder if Kevin would like me to post the link to his, uh, house? …Err, I mean mansion. I wonder how he can afford such a life-style, since his work is done profit-free, of course. But, wait, what are all those health-products I can buy on his website? Certainly he doesn’t make any money from them, right? Kevin, you are a fool. But, quite an entertaining one, at least.

    And, um, “pumped full of toxins?” Which toxins, Kevin. What are the amounts present, in what dose, and at what dose do they become “toxic?” Since you feel you are so educated (by Dr. Mercola, no less), why don’t you educated us about what you have learned.

    Would you also mind backing up your claims with actual facts, support, evidence. Those pesky little annoying requirements to make yourself credible.

  46. March 10, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Lara: from one former anti-vaxer to another, kudos for sharing your story!

  47. Autismum
    March 10, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    I agree but Oliver’s got the measure of Steve!

  48. Chris
    March 10, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Oh, most definitely! Great job.

  49. Autismum
    March 10, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    Don’t you know anything? Mercola sells supplements: that can’t be bad it’s not Big Pharma. I mean, the supplement industry is only worth about $50billion a year and is a beneficent industry indeed making natural things for people to live (and die) naturally. It takes natural products like magnolia and wild ginseng and harvests them to near extinction to make such effective treatments. Same with animals, mother nature is so giving.
    Apart from being at the centre of the world’s largest price fixing scandal ever, big supplements and their purveyors can no way be corrupt like Big Pharma.

  50. Steve Michaels
    March 11, 2012 at 9:14 am

    How amazing it is that RTP, VSS and Steve find this story dubious. So do I. But that is not the point. Lara seems quite able to answer obvious questions that could clarify her daughter’s situation, but refuses to do so. In addition, the regular shills are defending the story apparently blindly since the shills are no more able or willing to provide the cogent information requested.

    Issues about vitamin K are certainly relevant as the vitamin K injection is synthetic, NOT natural.

    http://legaljustice4john.com/jaundiceVitKshotNewborns.htm

    Another problem with the story comes from the apparent lack of ability to insure that Lara got her child vaccinated properly, even years down the road. She lost her job. What about COBRA? That program that allows people who lose their jobs to keep there company plan for up to 12 months after redundancy (depending on the state). What about state or federal assistance? I am well known for not supporting the vaccination dogma, but it really beggars belief that someone who was ‘betrayed’ by her mother would not bother with her daughter. The intimated excuse that she hasn’t done it yet because of her daughter’s autism is almost laughable.

  51. March 11, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Steve, the costs for COBRA coverage are astronomical. I’ve been there myself – having to choose whether or not I continued my insurance coverage via COBRA with monthly costs of over 600$ or forgoing the coverage and ensuring my family had bills paid and food on the table.

    Again, qualifying for assistance isn’t as easy as you’d like to make it appear either. There are plenty of families who make too much to qualify for free medical coverage, but don’t make enough to pay for their own coverage.

    Many states also have a waiting period before coverage ‘kicks in’.

  52. Lara Lohne
    March 11, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Steve Michaels,

    You unfortunately appear to have a reading comprehension issue so let me clarify some issues you have mistaken from the article above.

    1. I have 6 children, all are currently fully vaccinated
    2. I have 4 boys, and two girls neither of which have autism.
    3. My older five children were all vaccinated on schedule, they are all neurotypical
    4. My youngest was NOT vaccinated on schedule because I did not have medical coverage for him, and it wasn’t until just prior to him turning 2 and our state implementing a NEW medicaid program for uninsured children that I was able to get any coverage for him
    5. My youngest is a boy and he has autism.
    6. No COBRA option was available to me when my job was out sourced because I was a contractor. I was waiting for notice that full time positions would be opening up, which would have given me the option of insurance coverage for my pregnancy, which was still fairly new. A month after learning I was pregnant, and two months prior to when my manager had informed me the full time positions would be open, the CEO announced our department was being outsourced. I couldn’t get medical coverage until I was no longer working as there was a year long waiting list, so once I was unemployed, which took an additional 3 months while they transitioned the department and trained the new workers, I applied for state medicaid and it took them still another month to approve me. I was 25 weeks pregnant before I finally got approval and began my prenatal care.
    7. Of course my son received the vitamin k does after birth, and of course it’s synthetic, most vitamin supplements are. As for the hep b, I have no record that he received it at the hospital after birth. It wasn’t routine when my older five children were born and it is not listed on his immunization record card as having been received at the time of his birth.

    In my state, until the new program for children opened up, anyone who was working had to be placed on a waiting list before they could apply for medicaid, unless there was a disability present. That is still the case now for adults, but since the implementation of the new children’s medicaid program, children no longer need to wait for approval if the family meets the income restrictions. When I worked, I made too much for my son to qualify so we had to wait and then when my probationary period at work ended, it was far more then I could afford to have him covered by my work insurance.

    When they implemented the new uninsured children medicaid program, I applied again for coverage for my son and he qualified under that. He was just under two and a half, I began looking for a pediatrician because I knew something was wrong and didn’t know how to go about having him evaluated. We had found information online that had a 10 point check list for symptoms of autism in toddlers. My son exhibited 7 of the ten and we needed to get him evaluated. I wasn’t able to find him a pediatrician, not many that were accessible to me accepted his medicaid coverage. In the end, after a few months of looking on my breaks, lunches and after my son was in bed each night, I was able to reach the Early Intervention people and made an appointment for an evaluation. He was two years and 8 months old when he started receiving Early Intervention and they came to our home once per week and he had a parent toddler play group that my partner went with him to for two hours twice a week. It was this time that we were told what would happen next for him, special education preschool when he turned three and we needed him to be fully vaccinated before he could attend. They provided us with the information for the county health clinic when we informed them he didn’t have a pediatrician. Over the next 6 months, he received all the immunizations he had previously missed. The immunizations given would not have been free if he hadn’t been covered, but they were covered therefore it didn’t cost us anything. There are many children that go unvaccinated though because, from my current knowledge, if there is no health coverage, even state medicaid, there is no vaccinations program free of charge to financially struggling families.

    He now has a regular pediatrician and his immunizations are current. His autistic symptoms began to manifest long before he received immunizations. Looking back, now that I know what the symptoms are, I can see he displayed some from birth, even though to start out, his development was above the normal curve, doing most things early. It was about 10 months to 12 months that he began to regress, which started with him losing his language, getting ‘lost’ in lining up his toys and spinning things, he began to appear that he was deaf as he stopped responding to his name. At 14 months old he began walking on his toes and began to display OCD tendencies. He was about 18 months old that the serious tantrums began and we started to become very concerned about his lack of language. If I had coverage and he was receiving regular well baby visits, these things might have been found earlier and we may have been able to get him into Early Intervention sooner.

    We are still struggling if you must know, the economy hasn’t really recovered in my state since the dot com crash back in the late 1990s/early millennium. But because my son is now officially disabled, we don’t have to worry about him receiving medicaid coverage. The unfortunate thing is, many of the therapies he needs are not covered by his medicaid, or the therapists don’t accept his coverage. So I do what I can do for him at home and he continues to participate in the Early Childhood Special Education program. He will be transitioned to Kindergarten in September, even though he is mostly non verbal, still has significant sensory issues and is not potty trained. You remain focused on this vaccine issue and there are MANY children like my son who need therapy but are unable to find it due to financial constraints and medical coverage not covering the therapy that is needed. It’s time to shift the focus of our attention where it is needed: away from vaccines, since it’s been proven time and time again they have no causal link to autism, and better programs for assistance and coverage of therapies for those like my son who can’t get it otherwise.

    Hopefully I’ve aired enough of my dirty laundry now for you. All of this really is not pertinent to my son’s situation, nor is it the main point of my story. He didn’t get vaccines until after his obvious symptoms began to present themselves. He is fully vaccinated now. But my personal feelings regarding vaccines is what is really the issue here because I grew up anti vaccine. I lived it, I believed it, I even fought it. But when things started to change, and I gained the ability to think for myself and research myself, logic took over and I made the decision that made the most sense for the long term health of my children. I learned the facts and they all pointed to vaccines being much safer then contracting the diseases. The only reason any of my work and insurance coverage issues matter is because if I had been able to get my son vaccinated on schedule, I might have fallen back into the anti vaccine mindset again when I first heard about the autism/vaccine scare. But there is no doubt in my mind that vaccines couldn’t have been responsible because my son didn’t get them before he began to show symptoms. I am not the only one and the anti vaccine parents of children with autism are by far the minority in the autism community. Not all, not even most, parents of an autistic child blame vaccines, it’s is a tiny fraction of that community. They unfortunately are much more vocal about it because all the other parents are more focused on the autism and their child and doing everything they can for them rather then wasting time and money on ‘cures’ that don’t work because there is no cure for autism. Autism is the real issue, not vaccines. So let’s all get our priorities straight. Even if miraculously, somehow someone decided to agree with your position, just to shut you up, your child would still have autism. You just wouldn’t have anything to complain about anymore. What will you do then for attention?

  53. Autismum
    March 11, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Steve Michaels likes to try to audit people. I think he’s a particularly avaricious troll

  54. March 11, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Is’ avaricious troll’ another of way of saying smug, condescending blowhard? If so, then I totally agree with you! LOL.

  55. Autismum
    March 11, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    pretty much! xx

  56. Erica
    March 12, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    I know with my COBRA plan, I’d be paying something like $1500 or $2000 a month for insurance. If I had lost my job, I highly doubt I could cover that!
    When I looked in to assistance, we fell in to that “in-between”. We probably could have afforded really crappy, limiting insurance, but we still made too much to qualify for state assistance AND keep our house.

  57. Deb
    March 13, 2012 at 2:31 am

    Lara, thank you so much for your patience and willingness to engage. Kudos to you for remaining courteous and clear when faced with such intrusive questioning and attempts to undermine you.

  58. Snoozie
    March 13, 2012 at 7:26 am

    VSS,

    The Hep B vaccine was not always given at birth in 2007. My son, born in 2008, received his first Hep B dose at 2 months, and we vaccinate our children fully and on-schedule.

    It is clear you are merely attempting to impugn this entire article by picking through the details and attempting to find inconsistencies. Unfortunately, her story is accurate and consistent, presented by a credible source. I do understand the anti-vaccine movement’s immediate strong, negative reaction to Lara’s story. It threatens your sense that if only people would “research” to become “educated,” then they would agree with you and stop vaccinating.

    However, this one detail, that the Hep B vaccine would have been given at birth, does not swing in your favor. In fact, it only demonstrates that you wish to re-imagine facts as you’d like to see them in order to confirm your pre-existing biases.

    I commend Lara for having the bravery to step forward and share her story despite the unkind and unfair tactics of the anti-vaccine movement. Thank you, Lara.

  59. kathy
    March 13, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    Thank you so much for clarifying. It will really help people on the fence to get their children vaccinated. Hugs to you for being so brave.

  60. Steve Michaels
    March 17, 2012 at 5:37 am

    Lara, thank you for your clarification. It puts everything into a whole new light. You obviously did not read the link I provided as it does not only deal with the synthetic nature of vitamin K injections, but also the preservatives, which are also found in vaccines. Let me quote:

    “· According to the product insert, adverse reactions include hemolysis (or hemolysis – American spelling) (meaning breakdown of red blood cells), hemolytic anemia (a disorder characterized by chronic premature destruction of red blood cells), hyperbilirubinemia (too much bilirubin in blood) and jaundice (yellow skin and eyes resulting from hyperbilirubinemia), and allergic reactions include face flushing, gastrointestinal upset, rash, redness, pain or swelling at injection site and itching skin. It also warns that large enough doses can cause brain damage in infants and/or impairment to liver function. Hypoxia has also been published as having occurred in infants after Vitamin K administration.”

    In other words, the vitamin K injection falls into the same questionable category for safety as the vaccines themselves. Not only that, in addition the manufacturers (Merck and Roche and Abbott) are fully aware of the risks.

    Taking all of that to the side, what your story reveals in a nutshell is that your youngest child developed autism without (at least) being fully vaccinated. Scientifically, it is impossible to determine whether medical interventions did or did not have a contributory impact on his condition. Firstly, he received vitamin K with it’s known issues of potential for hypoxia and brain damage, and secondly, you have not revealed whether you received any vaccines whilst pregnant. In the end, it really isn’t relevant. By posting on a pharma shill site such as this, the apparent intention is to demonstrate that vaccines can’t be associated with autism because your unvaccinated child developed autism. This is a fallacious assertion. I have two children, both unvaccinated and both without autism or any reported neurological disorders that have been coincidentally or otherwise linked to vaccination. That also does not prove anything about vaccines. Both your story and mine are simply anecdotal and completely contradictory. If a cigarette company started parading a bunch of lung cancer victims who never smoked as proof (explicit or implied) that cigarettes are not linked to cancer, it would be dismissed out of hand. As sad as your story is, both economically and with regard to your son, it is emotive, but also irrelevant in the context of the vaccine debate.

  61. Steve Michaels
    March 17, 2012 at 5:41 am

    Thank you for irrelevant attempts at insight. At no point did I request anything of Lara. I simply pointed out that I agreed with a couple of other commentators about the questions posed by the article. I did not request an audit nor even imply that I wanted one. Lara has answered in her own way and of her own volition.

    And I have come on here and left one comment in quite a long time. That hardly constitutes being a troll, however your attempt as inappropriate characterization is noted, as that truly is a sign of a real troll. By the way, carrying on a discussion with other commentators on specific subjects also does not constitute trolling.

  62. onevenna
    March 17, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Steve Michaels,

    Since my son was developing normally and above normally, until he was about 14 months of age (when he began to regress) I think it’s safe to say he suffered no ill effects from the Vitamin K shot given after birth. I received no vaccines while pregnant and he is the only one of my 6 children that has autism and was not vaccinated on schedule. There were other conditions present with my pregnancy which I would find more suspect then a vaccine, if he had received them, that were not in existence with any of my other pregnancies. My age was a huge factor as I was 36 when he was born. I also had gestational diabetes with him.

    Research has shown, multiple times, there is a strong genetic component in the development of autism. This research can’t be simply ignored just because it doesn’t fall into line with the vaccine=autism theory.

    I’m not sure why you would think my story is sad. My son is an amazing, funny little person and I love him with all my heart. He has challenges, yes, but it really isn’t the tragedy that some people make it out to be. He has sensory issues, behavioral challenges and speech limitations, but those things can be worked with and compensated for. Autism is developmental delay, not status, therefore it’s normal that a child with autism will progress, even without intervention. It will just be slower. I am fortunate that my son is not profoundly or severely autistic, but I don’t believe I would love him any less if he were. It would merely mean my role as his mother would be a little different.

    As for the vitamin K shot, it is administered to newborns to help them break down the excessive red blood cells present at birth that their liver wouldn’t be able to handle and would result in severe jaundice. So the fact that your information says the vitamin k shot causes jaundice is silly. The link you provided is suspect and can’t be taken as truth. It is just one person’s opinion, obviously shared by others who are gullible and looking for something to blame.

    You can feel whatever you wish about my assertions, but it’s clear in my mind, vaccines had nothing what so ever to do with my son developing autism. Autism is NOT brain damage, and that myth needs to be dispelled immediately. I have an older brother with special needs, he has cerebral palsy. It is a birth defect. The same could be said of autism, except that its prevailing symptoms don’t show up at birth in most cases. It has to do with genetic triggers that cause the brain to develop abnormally sometime in the second trimester of gestation. That is something that can’t be disputed because science has shown us this happens. That would also make it a birth defect, like down syndrome, it is present already when the child is born.

    You will obviously believe whatever you wish, but my story isn’t meant to convince you. My story is to show, I was once anti-vaccine, I learned why vaccines are not evil and wrong as I was raised to believe by doing my own research into them. And as fervent about vaccines as I am, I have a son that I was not able to get vaccinated on schedule like his older siblings were and he still developed autism. If a child is going to develop autism, he or she will do so with or without vaccines. The markers for it were there prior to birth. There are many children who haven’t been vaccinated and still developed autism. My story is not unique other then I started out believing, as you do now, that vaccines were bad, dangerous and harmful. I can’t believe that now though because fact tells me otherwise.

  63. Steve Michaels
    March 18, 2012 at 8:20 am

    Ummm, who are you?? Unless you are Lara using a second name (a common tactic amongst shills). Regardless as to who you are, let me point out a couple of home truths about your comments.

    “I think it’s safe to say he suffered no ill effects from the Vitamin K shot given after birth. I received no vaccines while pregnant and he is the only one of my 6 children that has autism and was not vaccinated on schedule.”

    This is non-sequitor reasoning. Just because an impact is not instantaneous does NOT in any way discount the possibility of a longer term side effect. Someone who smokes for 20 years, quits and develops lung cancer 5 years later would still attribute the cancer to the smoking.

    “Research has shown, multiple times, there is a strong genetic component in the development of autism. This research can’t be simply ignored just because it doesn’t fall into line with the vaccine=autism theory.”

    The genetic issue DOES fall into line with the vaccine-autism theory. The one big case declaring a link was because of a GENETIC mitochondrial disorder. That to the side, genetic predispositions are exactly that, predispositions. Not always, but usually a predisposition needs a trigger to manifest. Genetic changes cannot account for the increase in autism because the rate of increase in cases far outstrips the speed at which genetic changes occur within a population. The rate increases coincide very nicely with changes (increases) to the vaccine recommendations. Summary dismissal of this fact is foolish and appears dogmatic.

    “I’m not sure why you would think my story is sad. My son is an amazing, funny little person and I love him with all my heart. He has challenges, yes, but it really isn’t the tragedy that some people make it out to be.”

    Assuming you are Lara under an assumed name, you stated previously, “I’m not going to whine and tell you why I haven’t yet. The fact that I have a child with autism is a huge aspect of why.” This statement certainly implies that no matter how blessed you are and how much you Love your son, he has posed challenges and issues that a non-autistic child would not, thus making your life more difficult. For this I feel for the extra burdens that you must deal with.

    “As for the vitamin K shot, it is administered to newborns to help them break down the excessive red blood cells present at birth that their liver wouldn’t be able to handle and would result in severe jaundice. So the fact that your information says the vitamin k shot causes jaundice is silly. The link you provided is suspect and can’t be taken as truth.”

    Can you refute the information or just issue assertions? The point of the article, had you actually read it, was that the incidence of jaundice that is ostensibly avoided by the vit K jab is 1 in 10,000, yet the incidence of childhood leukemia after vit K is 1 in 500. In addition, it brings out the issues of the additives and preservatives and their negative impacts on the body. The issue are crossed referenced to actual independent studies done at various universities and other accepted reference materials.

    “You can feel whatever you wish about my assertions, but it’s clear in my mind, vaccines had nothing what so ever to do with my son developing autism. Autism is NOT brain damage, and that myth needs to be dispelled immediately.”

    Several studies have shown MRI scan differences between autistic and non-autistic children, including damage as well as abnormal formations, it is impossible to state that autism is not brain damage. In some cases in may be, in others not. As we all know, autism is a subjective diagnosis based on behavioral and developmental test results. As far as my assertions go, I unequivocally stated that vaccines may well have had nothing to do with your child’s autism. I also stated that whether they did or did not is also irrelevant as an anecdote. Let me quote myself, “Both your story and mine are simply anecdotal and completely contradictory. If a cigarette company started parading a bunch of lung cancer victims who never smoked as proof (explicit or implied) that cigarettes are not linked to cancer, it would be dismissed out of hand.”

    If you wish to debate the issues, I am more than happy to do so. If you choose to cherry pick and create straw men, I can only point out what you are doing. Your approach indicates a certain superficiality to the points you are trying to make.

  64. onevenna
    March 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    My apologies for the confusion created by the screen name. I am Lara Lohne. For some reason the site required me to login to allow me to post all of a sudden where it didn’t before. I had forgotten I did not use my real name when I created my account, as I wished to remain anonymous. That appears to be something I can no longer do, however.

    As for your response, I am not the one cherry picking data. You are. You completely ignore certain aspects of my story and only pick the ones you believe you have a valid argument against. I am not a fool because I do not take anyone’s word for anything. I do the research myself and the link you have provided is not something I can in good conscience agree with. It is simply correlation, which is not the same as causation and that is the entire problem with the anti vaccine movement and their fight regarding autism. It is not a causal factor in autism, it merely appears so because the autistic symptoms appear at the same time as vaccines are given. That happens with or without vaccines and trying to blame every case on vaccines, even when no vaccines were given is grasping at straws.

    I am not a shill, nobody pays me for sharing my story. I do it because people need to know not all parents of autistic children blame vaccines and not all children who have autism were vaccinated (I am simply a single representative in many that are out there.)

    As for your claim that genetic mutations are caused by vaccines, in my case that argument holds no water. I only had one vaccine growing up and it produced no ill effects in my what so ever. My mother was not vaccinated, her parents were children prior to vaccines being available. My father grew up in Europe and was only vaccinated when he came to the US and joined the Marines. There isn’t the long history of vaccines in my family and my son is the only child amongst my 6 siblings’ children who has autism. Yes my brother has Cerebral Palsy, but that is not autism by any stretch. Aside from physical disabilities gained by suffering through vaccine preventable disease, there isn’t any other disabilities in my family, immediate and extended, besides my brother and my son. If you come back and tell me that one little vaccine that caused no adverse effects in me also caused genetic mutations that I passed to my son, bull honky to that one right now! Why would they not present in my previous 5 children? Why would they only show up in my youngest? Your arguments are feeble at best and ridiculously ludicrous at worst. You are only here to try and undermine what I know is correct because fact vs. faith is what I base my opinions on. I am not the one who is a fool. And I am now leaving this discussion because you are obviously only trying to get a rise out of me. I have been more then patient and courteous to you. You are, however, hedging toward the realm of insulting me, and when it gets to that point, you are demonstrating you are not worthy of my courtesy or my patience. That being the case, I bid you good bye and I hope you have a nice life.

  65. Chris
    March 18, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Thank you, Lara, for your story and especially the patience you had with Mr. Michaels.

    (I am also having trouble posting)

  66. Autismum
    March 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    oh I hurt your feelings? Too bad

  67. March 19, 2012 at 2:27 am

    Hey Lara, I am a mother of a child on the autistic spectrum and I too am not convinced vaccines cause autism although I strongly suspect they can trigger autism in susceptible individuals. I cannot say for sure that vaccinations were what triggered my daughter’s ASD. I believe there are many potential triggers (environmental pollutants, food additives, etc.).

    When my daughter was a toddler she did have an odd reaction to a vaccine. Immediately following the vaccine she began to cry as though in much more discomfort than could be attributed to the shot itself and this crying went on for about an hour, which was extremely unusual for her. I did some research, decided there were many other, less risky ways to enhance her immunity, such as proper nutrition, avoiding chemical food additives and getting adequate sun exposure. We also eat LOADS of garlic, which strengthens the immune system, as well as preventing cancer.

    Since I stopped vaccinating, my daughter and I rarely get the flu and when we do, our symptoms rarely persist for more than 48 hours and are much less severe than when we were vaccinating. When my relatives who still vaccinate get the flu, it often drags on for weeks. Our immune systems are pretty amazing when we don’t mess with them.

    I was wondering what you thought about the Gardasil vaccine, which has resulted in several deaths and countless (often permanent) adverse effects? Simply do a YouTube search for “gardasil stories” or check out the SaneVax YouTube channel for a near-endless list of videos of girls and their parents describing in their own words how this vaccine destroyed their lives.

    Why do you think there is such a push to have our girls, and now boys, too, vaccinated against a virus that most of us will get in our lifetimes, is generally harmless and typically goes away on it’s own?

    In the FDA’s own words;

    “Infections caused by HPV actually pose no danger in healthy women and are usually short lived.”

    and from the Journal Of The American Medical Association (August 2007);

    “No significant evidence of a vaccine therapeutic effect was observed in analysis…” and,

    “…It is unlikely that vaccination can have a significant beneficial impact.”

    Are you aware of the eugenics/global depopulation movement spearheaded by powerful individuals such as Bill Gates, who has dedicated vast sums of his wealth to the development and distribution of vaccines and even funds research into methods of administering vaccines covertly? He also funds GMO research (GMO’s have been linked to cancer and infertility) as well as geoengineering (being carried out covertly in all NATO countries and having a devastating impact on the environment as well as human health – FMI see “What In The World Are They Spraying?” on YouTube)?

    There are substances being intentionally added to our food, water, pharmaceuticals and air to decrease fertility, encourage disease (soft kill weapons) and make us stupid and complacent so we will be unable to recognize or care about the biological and chemical warfare being carried out against us. It may seem far-fetched, but this conspiracy is well supported by facts. I urge you to watch the documentary “Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement” (also can be viewed on YouTube) to learn how those in the highest positions of power (including the health authorities whose research, no doubt, has influenced your opinions about vaccines), are carrying out an agenda to reduce the world’s population by as much as 90%!

    Before you dismiss me as a conspiracy kook, I beg you to humour me and watch Endgame. All the facts presented are documented and can easily be verified.

  68. Lawrence
    March 19, 2012 at 5:50 am

    @Tanya – seriously? You have some pretty screwed up opinions of people if you think what you talk about has any relation to reality. Oh, aren’t you the Morgellon’s chick from RI?

  69. March 19, 2012 at 8:39 am

    @Lawrence Yes, I have Morgellons….and your point is? You are trying to discredit me based on the fact that I am an advocate for an illness that mainstream science has yet to prove exists because it is the result of manmade nanotech and they are covering it up (See Rady Ananda’s article on ActivistPost, “CDC calls Morgellons’ nanoworms a delusion, protects DARPA”)? Thanks for bringing it up, Lawrence. It’s another very important topic and aspect of the eugenics attack on humanity.

    Anyways, we are talking about vaccines here, not Morgellons, right? So the girls in those Gardasil videos I referenced are actors, then? Their suffering just a made up story us “anti-vaxers” promote to further our agenda? LOL! So it’s not true that approximately 70% of sexually active adults will contract HPV and NOT DIE or even get sick? Looks like someone needs to do a bit more research.

    As for the eugenics stuff, why don’t you watch Endgame, write a list of all the erroneous facts you find presented in the film and challenge me on them here. That would be a far more effective way to discredit what I’m saying, no?

    Larry, your statement makes no sense, I have no idea what “RI” is, and I’m curious as to how you were able to make the connection between myself and the Morgellons so quickly. I just posted a few hours ago! Do I have a bit of a cyber-stalker on my hands. Aww! I’m flattered, “Lawrence” *blushes*.

    Why not let people check out what I’m saying and make up their own minds. Surely everyone here (except perhaps you) is capable of thinking for themselves.

  70. enkidu
    March 19, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Tanya: all I can say is I hope you are enjoying your fantasy world. Oh boy.

  71. Lawrence
    March 19, 2012 at 9:36 am

    @Tanya – Respectful Insolence (shortened to RI), where you spent a considerable amount of time spinning your conspiracy theories on Morgellon’s, nano-tech & chemtrails. Didn’t make any sense there (despite your numerous YouTube videos – which certainly didn’t help your case).

    It all goes back to you trying to prove a world-wide conspiracy that would consist of so many people, so many governments (most of whom have no reason to cooperate even on normal policies), organizations, corporations, etc – yet somehow you and your intrepid band have “uncovered the truth” yet these powerful organizations haven’t made you disappear yet?

    As far as you adding to the discussion here – I seriously doubt that, given what we saw of your “delusions” at RI.

    Have fun storming the Castle…..

  72. Lara Lohne
    March 19, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    I’m sorry but YouTube videos do not constitute scientific evidence and data. The story you’ve spun is far fetched at best and to be perfectly honest makes you sound rather delusional.

    There are a lot of Truthers on YouTube and they post regularly. Their claims cannot be backed up by science and that makes their statements mere speculation and opinion and nothing more. Saying falsehoods frequently doesn’t make them true, it just makes you a Truther. You might be surprised how many videos on YouTube, making all kinds of outrageous claims about one thing or another, are actually actors playing a role they were paid to play and not real people telling a true story that they experienced.

    Based on what you have asserted here, I think it would be safe to say you are one of those who believed that Comet Elenin was going to destroy the Earth and wouldn’t believe what NASA and other astronomers were saying, that CMEs from the Sun caused the comet to disintegrate. Were you convinced, like so many others, even though there was nothing visible on any of the satellite images, that Elenin was a brown dwarf star hiding a gigantic space craft that was going to bring back the race who genetically engineered us all to destroy our civilization? There is a reason science fiction is called that, fiction is made up, not real.

    I understand an individual’s need for attention can be so deep seeded they need to make up outrageous things and make ridiculous claims to justify their life, and if they say them enough they start to believe it. Truth is out there and it can be found, but you have to really be interested in finding the truth and willing to let go of your delusions, which I’m sure are too deeply ingrained. Good luck to you.

  73. March 19, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Ah yes, that RI. I remember you. So anyways, what does my activity on another site have to do with this discussion? Again, do you think the girls in those videos are actors? Liars? Do you disagree with my assertion that most people will contract HPV at some point in their lives and not suffer any ill effects? Do you not agree that there are countless, far less risky ways to boost your immunity to a much broader range of diseases?

    As for a global conspiracy, my “intrepid band” is millions strong. As I asked on RI, why do you think Ron Paul is so popular? He is popular because he is exposing the New World Order and his message resonates with the masses who are finally waking up. Same goes for Alex Jones (producer of Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement) who has Dr. Paul on his show frequently. You may not like them, but they speak the truth and are consistent.

    Is there any information presented in the film Endgame that you believe is false, or is the whole basis of your argument simply that, in your opinion, such a conspiracy would be implausible considering it’s scope and magnitude?

    Considering how many of us there are, do you think it would be realistic or wise to kill millions of small-time activists like myself all at once? Don’t you think they have bigger fish to fry? On RI I gave the example of Ted Gunderson, retired FBI chief, who recently died and whose doctor has publicly stated was poisoned with arsenic. Ted, who was committed to exposing the geoengineering cover up, among other things, spoke just months prior to his death about repeated attempts on his life, and apparently they got him. If they take out all the big fish, however, it becomes a little obvious. I am not surprised Ted was targeted considering his credentials and the impact of his work.

    Who is “storming the castle”? I came here to talk about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. It would appear that you are only here to attack me.

  74. Lawrence
    March 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    @Tanya – I doubt you remember me from RI, since I found your posts & arguments to be so insane and without a shred of merit that I didn’t bother to post in response.

    I suggest you read Matthew Tabibi’s book, “The Great Derangement.” It explains, in great detail, with numerous examples, why people gravitate towards fringe movements that embrace conspiracy theories.

  75. March 20, 2012 at 3:07 am

    Lara, I obviously wasn’t suggesting the videos were “scientific evidence and data”. These are people’s personal stories, but there are countless documented cases of serious adverse effects, including death, from the Gardasil and other vaccines. Under the freedom of information act, Judicial Watch has obtained thousands of adverse events reports, including several deaths from the Gardasil shot alone. Look it up.

    Do you honestly believe the individuals telling their gardasil horror stories, including many children, are ACTING? Is somebody in denial?

    You say you base your opinions regarding vaccines on science, but do you really understand the scientific research you have looked at? I admit that for me to even begin to understand “the science” (ie, the opinions of SOME doctors and scientists) I would need to spend years studying science. Even highly educated and respected scientists often disagree with one another and one scientist’s research may well contradict another’s, not just regarding vaccines, but nearly everything. I am not comfortable with making conclusions based on the research of others. People aren’t perfect, nor are their intentions always pure.

    I look at what makes sense to me and who can be trusted. Can an industry that continues to push a potentially harmful, even fatal, and clearly unnecessary vaccine at children be trusted?
    Can we trust people who “accidentally” distributed vaccines contaminated with the live avian flu virus to 18 countries? Not in my opinion.Not with my child’s health! I am not saying vaccines are all bad and could not be beneficial under certain circumstances, I simply don’t believe the vaccine manufacturers and pharmaceutical industry deserve my trust, given their history of corrupt and negligent practices.

    I am curious. Do you plan to get your son vaccinated with Gardasil?

    “The story you’ve spun is far fetched at best and to be perfectly honest makes you sound rather delusional.”

    Wow, thanks Lara. As a Morgellons sufferer I don’t constantly face people calling me delusional. No, not at all, and when you say I sound delusional, it sure feels wonderful! When I read your article, while I certainly didn’t agree with everything you had to say, I was polite and respectful in stating my opinion. To be honest with you, I don’t think the fact your son began regressing prior to vaccination proves anything and this article is redundant.

    The scientists concerned about vaccines simply state there is a link between vaccines and autism, ie, vaccines can trigger or worsen symptoms in predisposed individuals. We are also seeing a dramatic rise in autoimmune and inflammatory conditions that coincide with the increasing number of vaccines being pushed on children. Obviously not everyone is getting sick or dying from vaccines, but until we better understand why many are, further study is needed before we continue to vaccinate. Our children are too precious to be playing Russian Roulette with their health.

    As stated earlier, our immune systems work amazingly well when supported with proper nutrition and enhanced by specific immune boosting foods/supplements (ie, garlic, wild oil of oregano, vitamin D, vitamin C, etc.), adequate sun exposure and avoidance of excessive toxic food additives and environmental pollutants. Also, getting sick once in awhile actually helps boost natural immunity. I have had chicken pox and several cases of influenza throughout my life and I’m still alive and at age 33 rarely get the flu. I have never met anyone who died from the flu or chickenpox, or measles, mumps, rubella, etc. People with severely comprimised immune systems can die from even the most minor infection. Does this mean we should all be vaccinated? I think it means we should all try to eat as healthfully as possible and take good care of ourselves so that vaccines and other unnatural measures are not necessary.

    “Their claims cannot be backed up by science and that makes their statements mere speculation and opinion and nothing more.”

    Are you only able to accept something into your belief system if “science” (again, the OPINIONS, of SOME scientists) backs it up? When someone tells you they love you do you ask to see the data verifying it? As a society we have become way too dependant on “expert opinion” and have neglected our inner guidance system, our intuition. As I stated earlier, unless you have an extensive scientific background and can fully understand “the science” and replicate the research for yourself, you are relying on opinion, and opinions about vaccines vary greatly among scientists. Personally, I choose to follow my heart.

    “Based on what you have asserted here, I think it would be safe to say you are one of those who believed that Comet Elenin was going to destroy the Earth and wouldn’t believe what NASA and other astronomers were saying, that CMEs from the Sun caused the comet to disintegrate.”

    In one breath you accuse me of speculation, in the next, you make totally unfounded speculations about my beliefs. Again, I don’t trust NASA, but I don’t have the scientific background to develop informed opinions about what goes on in space, either. Well I found the Elenin stuff interesting, I was much more concerned with the attack on humanity occuring here on earth which I do have the facts to back up. If you are interested in learning more about the eugenics conspiracy of which I speak, Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement is a great starting point. No acting, no weird space alien stuff, just facts that can easily be verified. I DARE you to watch it!

    “There is a reason science fiction is called that, fiction is made up, not real.”

    Thanks for clearing that up Lara. I just love being spoken to like I am 5! You sound like a real sweetheart. I just don’t understand adults who feel the need to be condescending or rude in order to get their point across. Perhaps you could explain that to me, too?

    “I understand an individual’s need for attention can be so deep seeded they need to make up outrageous things and make ridiculous claims to justify their life, and if they say them enough they start to believe it. Truth is out there and it can be found, but you have to really be interested in finding the truth and willing to let go of your delusions, which I’m sure are too deeply ingrained. Good luck to you.”

    Wow Lara, your son is so fortunate to have such a shining example of kindness, empathy and open-mindedness in his life. . Good luck to HIM.

  76. Steve Michaels
    March 20, 2012 at 3:14 am

    Straw man much Lara? Firstly, I have not cherry picked anything. I responded to virtually every one of your points in turn. Secondly, it really does not matter whether you choose to believe my source or not. It has references to documentation, both research and approved reference sources to back up the veracity of the claims. Finally, the entire final portion of your comment deals with something I did not say.

    “As for your claim that genetic mutations are caused by vaccines, in my case that argument holds no water. I only had one vaccine growing up and it produced no ill effects in my what so ever.”

    Not even close to what I said. I said,

    “The genetic issue DOES fall into line with the vaccine-autism theory. The one big case declaring a link was because of a GENETIC mitochondrial disorder. That to the side, genetic predispositions are exactly that, predispositions.”

    In case you misunderstood what this means, please let me explain. It has been estimated that up to 20% of the population ALREADY possess a genetic mitochondrial disorder. This disorder has DIRECTLY linked vaccines with autism in people who already have this disorder. The disorder is NOT vaccine induced. The vaccine serves as a trigger in susceptible people. This has been established by the Vaccine Injury Compensation Court. Now then, I have previously pointed this out and, of course, been summarily dismissed by dogmatic individuals. I have argued that since there is a test for this mitochondrial dysfunction, the test should be given to ALL children before vaccines are administered to determine risk. But again, the main point. Your son’s condition in no way shows anything for or against the arguments about autism and vaccines, it is merely anecdotal. Good day!

  77. cia parker
    March 23, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Adam,
    I’m glad I suffered through measles at age 6, chickenpox at 7, and whooping cough as an adult. And I’m glad my daughter had whoooping cough at age 9 and 10 months (even thought she had gotten the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months), and chickenpox at 2. The pertussis vax isn’t that effective, and most of the people who got it in California two years ago had been appropriately vaccinated, but, like my daughter, caught it and transmitted it anyway. I’m sorry you have permanent damage to your lungs, usually the cilia broken off by the toxin produced by the bacteria grow back. My daughter and I both had it and, like most who get the disease, did not suffer any lasting damage.

  78. cia parker
    March 23, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Walker did a study published in 1993 which proved that babies don’t develop any immunity from a pertussis vaccine given at two months of age, and the Manitoba study in 1998 proved that starting the series at two months as opposed to four months or later more than doubles their risk of having asthma at 7 years of age. And don’t forget that asthma can be fatal. One in 9 vaccinated children has asthma, one in 50 children who does not get the pertussis vaccine. The pertussis vaccine is not very effective, only 30-70%. The old DTP was more effective, but caused so much death, brain damage and seizure disorders that it was replaced by the DTaP. That means that about half of those appropritely vaxed can still catch and transmit the disease, the way my daughter, vaccinated at 2, 4, and 6 months with DTaP, did, she caught it at nine months of age and gave it to me.
    That means that a responsible parent should quarantine newborns to the greatest degree possible, since they may catch it from even vaccinated people.
    Since vaccines kill a lot of children outright (and they often call it SIDS, sometimes encephalitis), as well as causing all sorts of diseases like autism and asthma, etc., it means there’s no guaranteed safe course. The country is not going to be able to afford the care that will be required of all the autistic adults there are going to be. The U.K. Telegraph just said the rate of autistic schoolchildren has gone from one in 200 in 2006 to one in 120 now. A newspaper in Rock City, a suburb of St. Louis, said the number of autistic kids in public school had doubled in the last five years. It makes me sick when I play in my mind different scenarios for what is going to happen to my autistic daughter when I die. I believe the wisest course is to refuse vaccines and strengthen your child’s immune system with good nutrition etc., so that he can strengthen his immune system by overcoming the routine childhood diseases naturally, with little chance of being damaged by them. No guarantees either way, but at a certain point you have to refuse known toxins so as to prevent devastating vaccine and immune system damage, and work to build an immune system that will fend off most threats on its own power.

  79. cia parker
    March 23, 2012 at 11:38 am

    It should be remembered that Dr. Walker-Smith, Dr. Wakefield’s fellow researcher on the Lancet study, was completely exonerated three weeks ago. The judge, Sir John Mitting, was deeply troubled by the case and delayed judgment for several weeks while he reseached it. He found that the GMC’s reasoning was superficial, their conclusions wrong, reprimanded them and required that they have legal counsel involved in their future disciplinary proceedings. He said the children had been appropriately treated for their medical problems. Drs. Walker- Smith and Wakefiled were railroaded for truthfuly pointing out big problems with the MMR vaccine.

  80. cia parker
    March 23, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Thousands of girls have been permanently damaged, some killed, by the HPV vaccine. India and Spain took it off the market when it killed girls there. Zeda Pingel is permanently in a hospital bed in her living room, she lost the ability to walk, talk, eat or breathe without a feeding tube and a trach, shortly after getting the HPV shot.
    The cervical cancer rate has gone way down thanks to the Pap test which detects cervical cancer at an early, treatable stage. I’m not in favor of cancer, but I sure as hell am not in favor of the HPV vax. And it is all about money!

  81. Chris
    March 23, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Only regards to Walker-Smith’s behavior. It has nothing to do with Wakefield. But you have been told that multiple times.

    Why do you keep bringing it up like it means something. It doesn’t as far as Wakefield is concerned. Wakefield still cannot practice medicine anywhere (and he was never qualified as a clinician), and his papers are still retracted. And he is still wrong about MMR in regards to gut issues and autism, which has been known for over a decade:
    MMR vaccine: the continuing saga
    MMR vaccine—worries are not justified

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6

    Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association.
    Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9
    *Subjects: 498 children with autism

  82. Lara Lohne
    March 23, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    cia parker,

    You continue to tout the same claims without so much as a high school science fair report to back them up. The claims you make cannot be supported by scientific evidence, therefore it is not correct information and should not be given as suck.

    The Walker-Smith thing you keep banging on about is a difference between court of law and the rigor of science. NOTHING in the court can exonerate someone and say that means what they claimed in their research is correct. All this court did was say his license to practice shouldn’t have been revoked as based on his knowledge he did nothing to warrant such action. Court and laws cannot override science, as much as they may like to think and laws and court outcomes do not constitute scientific evidence, but merely the opinion of the man giving the ruling, which can be subject to human fallibility as well as personal prejudice.

    Autism is not a disease, it is a neurological condition that stems from genetic mutations and family genetic history. Vaccines don’t cause the thing you say they do. If they did, every doctor who has taken the Hippocratic oath would have to counsel their patients not to vaccinate because that would fall into the do no harm category. Nothing in science can prove what you are claiming so unless you are a scientific law unto yourself, you really should stop spreading misinformation because you are doing real harm.

  83. Chris
    March 23, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    So link to the peer reviewed papers that show those were actually caused by the HPV vaccine. Again, do not link to news reports or websites, and especially VAERS. Here is an example. Make sure your link is to a highly rated medical journal, one that is actually indexed at PubMed (not the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons).

    Though what you can do is tell us what you need to read and understand before entering the official VAERS database, http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index. Explain why it says “I have read and understand the preceding statement”

  84. March 23, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    It must be very difficult going through life without discernment or intuition, needing the scientific establishment and “experts” to do all your thinking for you. Unfortunately, as I’ve stated before, “expert” opinion often varies drastically. One scientists findings may well contradict another’s, and sadly, what often ends up being accepted as fact by the masses has more to do with the interests backing the research and whether the research supports their financial and political agendas, not whether it is truthful.

    Much expert information is correct and useful, but information cannot solely be viewed according to who promotes it. Common sense, as well as intuition (an amazingly valuable gauge of truth, if allowed to develop), must also come into play. Again, can you honestly look into the eyes of the little girls in those “gardasil stories” YouTube videos I referred too and tell me those girls are ACTING?! Or that all of their adverse reactions are purely coincidental? Really?

    When I read cia parker’s story about her child’s response to vaccines I was moved to tears. Aside from empathizing with her, I felt deep gratitude that my autistic spectrum child can fully express herself, has no major cognitive issues, and that, other than the strange crying following her last vaccine, a few relatively minor sensory issues, and some digestive issues that she has now outgrown, she hasn’t had to experience much discomfort or pain stemming from vaccines or her ASD.

    I am able to discern the truth with my heart and spirit, rather than solely relying on the OPINIONS (however “expert”) of others, and to see that not everyone sponsoring and spinning “the science” is scrupulous.

    “Unless you are a scientific law unto yourself, you really should stop spreading misinformation because you are doing real harm.”

    Basically you are telling parents of vaccine injured parents to shut up and not tell their stories or voice their informed opinions unless they can afford to hire a scientist to “prove”, to your satisfaction, that their child’s injury was a result of vaccines.

    This is how the scientific dictatorship brainwashes people. First we are raised to ignore our higher awareness and given a steady dose, even prior to birth, of mind-dulling chemicals, as well as being bathed in electromagnetic frequencies that stifle our amazing natural insticts and intuitive gifts, then we are “educated” ie, made to sit for hours each day, for years, memorizing and regurgitating “facts” and being told who to trust, rather than being encouraged to think critically and to learn to intuit, for ourselves, what is accurate.

    This is why we see so many so-called “intellectuals” who would be completely lost is all of their “thinking” wasn’t done for them and who respond with hostility or ridicule (ie, calling people delusional, accusing them of dishonesty, attention-seeking, or even of having “a reading comprehension issue”) to anyone who thinks outside the box. People such as yourself who need “scientific proof” to form an opinion about anything, or to solve problems.

    Lara, isn’t it possible that scientific fact (or what is touted as such) can also “be subject to human fallibility as well as personal prejudice”?

  85. Lawrence
    March 23, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    @Tanya – please keep your nano-bot / chemtrail conspiracy theories to your self. Intuition & “gut instinct” is fine, because that can point research into areas that achieve positive outcomes. In the case of those that “feel” that vaccines aren’t safe – research has been down that path & it turns out that vaccines are incredibly effective and very safe, so your “intuition” is now worth about the paper it can be printed on.

    And yes, there needs to be actual “proof” – which time and time again, those who rail against vaccines cannot provide. For the amount of money that has been spent going down that particular rat-hole, imagine all of the families that could have been helped with more and more effective treatments…..

  86. Lawrence
    March 23, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    @Tanya – the next time your intuition or gut tells you that the scientific fact / law of gravity is suspect, I encourage you to jump off a bridge & see what happens.

  87. Lara Lohne
    March 23, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Actually, pure science cannot be subject to human fallibility, unless it is in how the data collected is interpreted, which is why more then one person reviews the data. This also keeps personal prejudice from playing too high of a role in reading the data.

    There are a lot of ‘studies’ done by unscrupulous clinicians who cherry pick the data so it fits their hypothesis. When the data they collected is reviewed by more clinicians the original conclusion of the original clinician is often found to be in error, and that is where human fallibility comes into play. That isn’t the original clinician making a mistake though, the ‘conclusion’ he found was done by choice, that makes him culpable for his actions when the truth is discovered. But again, that isn’t pure science because the science told the truth, it was the person who refused to see it, even when other people could.

    Fact is not the same as opinion, expert or otherwise and that is where you are confusing the issue. Opinion is what a person believes is true. If evidence/fact proves their opinion is incorrect, for them to hold fast to that opinion is just foolish, not intuitive.

    I do have intuition and when it is called for I use it. Science cannot be carried out by relying on intuition, that is counter to the purpose of science. Research is done to take the guess work out of things, to find fact that is reliable and static in every situation. It takes critical thinking and the ability to look past intuition and personal prejudice to be able to see the fact in the research being conducted, even if it goes contrary to what you are trying to prove or what you believe.

    A person needs to be above their own self importance and intelligence and be able to look at the big picture and the greater good. If a person can’t get past themselves, they shouldn’t be in the research industry because science for notoriety isn’t real science, it’s self promotion and most cases of this have never resulted in fact, but have caused a great deal of harm because too many people use their heart to make decisions instead of their mind which is where science stems from and what fact is supposed to be there for; to allow us to make informed, educated decisions based on fact rather then to have to rely on intuition which is not all together accurate.

    I have never discounted that there are rare cases and far fewer then you and others would have us believe, who do have adverse reactions to vaccines. And I am not telling them to shut up. By all means, tell their stories, but their stories should not make claims that have no scientific foundation in fact because that is opinion and is often not correct. Vaccines don’t cause autism. That has been proved over and over and over, multiple times for more then a decade. Ignoring this fact doesn’t make it go away. The parents of children with autism who believe this are by far in the minority and they need to stop trying to ‘cure’ their child because there is no cure for autism, and should love their child and do the best they can for them to give them the best life they are able to give.

    My son is autistic, he is still mostly non verbal, still in diapers, has sometimes severe sensory issues and behavior challenges. However, even with all these things, everyone who knows him can tell he is a happy little boy, and that is because he is loved and accepted for who he is. Autism is a big part of who he is and for me to act like he is somehow broken or less then desirable is only going to end up making him feel unhappy and I refuse to do that to my son.

    I haven’t insulted anyone, but merely stated my conclusions based on certain statements made. If you have taken my remarks as insulting that of course is something I can’t stop you from doing. Of course engaging as you have in this discussion, making the claims you have, to anyone with a logical mind certain conclusions, using intuition, are drawn. There is no factual evidence that supports the claims you make and again a video on youtube is not scientific proof. Show me real, peer reviewed scientific evidence that supports your claims and I’ll be happy to change my mind if the facts warrant it. If the best you can do is a youtube video, which is obviously devised to play to emotion, I can’t accept what you claim. If you are offended and insulted by the fact that I can’t take you seriously, I’m sorry about that, but the fact remains, your claims have no basis in fact and I can’t just accept them because you tell me I should. My intuition tells me it’s wrong because the fact tells a completely different story. Please remember, there is a huge difference between opinion and fact.

    I apologize for the length of this reply, but I felt I needed to make sure all these areas were touched on. I’m not a mean person and I harbor no ill will against you personally. But your claims and accusations, since they go against scientific fact, are harmful. I can’t in good conscience sit back and say nothing. The vaccine causation issue is dead and needs to be buried. It’s time for us to put aside our differences and start working together for the greater good, my son, your child and the millions of other people currently and who will in the future be diagnosed with autism. Is that asking too much?

  88. March 23, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @Lawrence,

    “please keep your nano-bot / chemtrail conspiracy theories to your self”

    I’m not discussing geoengineering or Morgellons here. I can see you are very hung up on that, but those issues are of little relevance here, other than that you believe they discredit me, and when and where they are relevant, I will NOT keep them to myself just because not everyone sees eye-to-eye with me, or is yet aware of these threats.

    “vaccines are incredibly effective and very safe”

    Tell that to those “actors” in the Gardasil stories videos, and the many other accounts of adverse reactions, including death, attributed to vaccines. Tell that to cia parker.

    “For the amount of money that has been spent going down that particular rat-hole, imagine all of the families that could have been helped with more and more effective treatments.”

    For the amount of money that has been spent developing and propagandizing vaccines that, even if they were effective and safe, would only be preventing us from a few rare illnesses that rarely kill or permanently injure people, imagine all the children that could be helped with more funding into research to find out why rates of autism and other neurological disorders, childhood cancers, mental health issues, autoimmune disorders, etc., that really are killing and disabling large numbers of our kids are through the roof and continue to climb.

    I’m not saying it’s all vaccines. Our food isn’t food anymore, our water is poisoned, prescription drug use is at an all-time high, we are constantly breathing in toxic pollutants and are immersed in an invisible sea of electromagnetic frequencies. All of these factors are comprimising our children’s health.

    “the next time your intuition or gut tells you that the scientific fact / law of gravity is suspect, I encourage you to jump off a bridge & see what happens.”

    A little bit of wishful thinking on your behalf? Anyone with a functioning brain who has fallen down or dropped something more than once understands how gravity works. Even someone living in a remote jungle raised by monkeys understands how gravity works without even needing to have a word for it, or having it explained in scientific terms.

    It’s called common sense. If we are encouraged to think for ourselves, common sense comes naturally. If we are institutionalized and taught to rely on others to do most of our thinking for us, things can only make sense to us if the “right people” tell us they make sense in the “right way”. There are many ways to arrive at knowing outside of what you are calling science (ie, regurgitated and often manipulated thought).

  89. chrisw
    March 24, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Tanya you stated that: ” For the amount of money that has been spent developing and propagandizing vaccines that, even if they were effective and safe, would only be preventing us from a few rare illnesses that rarely kill or permanently injure people,”

    If you had used your common sense (or even your intuition) you could have done your research and found this information on http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/en/ It states:

    In 2008, WHO estimated that 1.5 million of deaths among children under 5 years were due to diseases that could have been prevented by routine vaccination. This represents 17% of global total mortality in children under 5 years of age

    That’s right 17% global mortality in children under five, yes that’s 1.5 million deaths, hardly what I would call rare illnesses that rarely kill or permanently injure people!

  90. Steve Michaels
    March 24, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Oh Laaarrrrraaaaa! I can see that you have been on here under your other name since I left a reply to your straw man fantasy argument and you have been going on about all sorts of things, but you have failed to make any reply to my comment which strips bare the fact that you are merely posturing without any real arguments to present.

  91. Steve Michaels
    March 24, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Lara, you really do seem to be going off on one here.

    “You continue to tout the same claims without so much as a high school science fair report to back them up.”

    I have made scientifically backed assertions complete with referencing to the backing and you explicitly have chosen to ignore them AND create straw man arguments instead of dealing with what I have actually said.

    “The Walker-Smith thing you keep banging on about is a difference between court of law and the rigor of science. NOTHING in the court can exonerate someone and say that means what they claimed in their research is correct.”

    A court of law is the determining point of truth when there is dispute. There was dispute about the findings of the GMC as a reasonable venue to determine the veracity of claims made against doctors. They did not address the science, they addressed the competency of the GMC as an investigative panel. The High Court ruling was explicit: The Court criticized the panel’s “inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion.” In other words, you are creating a straw man again. The same standards had been held by the GMC against Wakefied, and as sooo many pro-vaxers love to point out, Wakefield was stuck off for the same ‘inadequate and superficial reasoning’ as Dr. Walker-Smith. What that means is that the attacks on Wakefield based on lack of integrity and failure to procure ethical approval have also been quashed by this ruling. Do a little research on Brian Deer (recent) and you will find that at the same time as the researchers are being exonerated, the accuser is in a downward spiral. It would behoove you to find out why.

    “Autism is not a disease, it is a neurological condition that stems from genetic mutations and family genetic history.”

    This is a patently false statement. It is impossible for genetic mutation to manifest in the way that autism has in less than a full generation, unless you attribute genetic mutation to environmental factors that essentially rewrite our DNA in real time. I don’t believe you do, but even if you did, the cause would not be the mutations, but rather, the cause of the mutations. This could be radiation, vaccination, pollution or other myriad possibilities.

    And finally from your comment below: “Actually, pure science cannot be subject to human fallibility, unless it is in how the data collected is interpreted, which is why more then one person reviews the data.”

    Do you understand the meaning of a ‘non-sequitor’? It matters not how many people review something. What matters is how independent they are. If they all have similar interests in the results of the review, then the reviews are not unbiased. Just because multiple people review something, it does not immediately follow that the reviews are independent. Just out of curiosity, what is ‘pure science’? Unless you are referring to science done without consciousness, then all science is done by conscious beings. Since the only conscious beings in our sphere of knowledge are human, how can any scientific exploration done by humans NOT be subject to human fallibility? (And that is a valid argument, look up what that means)

  92. Nathan
    March 24, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Or, because this blog has been busy lately, your meanderings were not noticed, or took low priority.

    Of course, you could facilitate Lara’s response by providing some evidence for your claims. For example, cite evidence that 20% of the population has a mitochondrial disorder. Then, since there are a great number of different mitochondrial disorders, provide evidence that they all carry this risk of autism from vaccine exposure. Or for that matter, that any of them do (as the vaccine court has never compensated for autism, and even if they had, legal decisions are not scientific evidence). Then provide evidence that the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of the disease, since wild disease can cause significant damage to people with mitochondrial disorders. Then provide evidence of what screening modality could be applied to the entire population, that has adequate sensitivity and specificity, and is not too expensive or invasive (diagnosis of mito often requires muscle biopsy). Do those things, and then you might have a post worthy of more attention.

  93. March 25, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Chris, even if the WHO’s figures could be trusted, most of the deaths from “vaccine preventable illness” are in poor, underdeveloped and destabilized regions where nutritious food and clean water are often not available.

    Naturally your immune system will be comprimised if your water and food, if you are lucky to have any, are contaminated, and you are malnourished. I know from personal experience, when you aren’t taking good care of yourself, you get sick more frequently and usually infections are more severe. Stress and lack of information about basic hygiene also contribute to higher disease rates in these areas.

    Under certain circumstances vaccines might help if those funding their research and development weren’t eugenicists who have spoken openly about reducing the population using vaccines, and had the unscrupulous, profit-driven manufacturers not made numerous “mistakes” that have killed and maimed many and, in at least on instance, almost “accidentally” infected citizens of 18 countries with live avian flu.

    Again, refer to those videos (just search “gardasil stories”, or see SaneVax ‘s channel on YouTube) where previously healthy people tell their stories of how they, or their loved ones, have been damaged or killed by vaccines. Are the touted benefits of vaccines really worth sacrificing the well-being and lives of so many innocent children?

    I wonder how many pro-vaxers would still think vaccines were so wonderful if it was their child who had a severe adverse reaction to a vaccine. If it was your baby killed by a vaccine would you be proud of the human sacrifice you had made for the “greater good”?

    I don’t remember hearing much at all about the “horrors” of cervical cancer until a vaccine was developed to prevent it. Now, even though, as I stated before, most people contract HPV and suffer no ill effects from it and the vast majority of deaths attributed to cervical cancer are in poor countries, HPV is blown up to be this big killer and there is a panic to get all our girls, and now boys, vaccinated against it.

    This is North America! We have the knowledge and capability of choosing to take countless, 100% safe and natural steps toward supporting our immune systems, so that when we are exposed to pathogens, our body is able to deal with the threat effectively on its own, without having to risk our lives and health for “protection” that often doesn’t even work anyways.

  94. Lawrence
    March 26, 2012 at 4:45 am

    @Tanya – you must not know a lot of women, because Cervical Cancer has been a major topic of discussion for years – especially because like Prostate Cancer in men, it was something that was harder to detect until recent times, killed quite often, and as we found out because of in-depth research, was (in a lot of cases) caused by a viral infection that could be combatted with a vaccine.

    As far as your rants against “population reduction,” I have a question – how many families do you know that have 10+ kids nowadays? How many women “have” to start bearing children in their teens, because the chances of them surviving into their twenties are low?

    You really have no understanding of demographics & how population growth works, do you? When 1/2 or more of your children would die in childhood (many before the age of 5) of now preventable diseases, families had to be pretty big, which meant a larger overall growth in population. In third world countries, this means that families have to be larger to take the inevitable number of deaths, but still provide the needed number for support (to help with crops, the herds, etc) – as vaccines either wipe out or radically reduce the incidence of these diseases & children live longer and better lives, their parents no longer need to bear as many children.

    Over time, this means that families get smaller – hence a smaller, healthier population overall.

    So, get your head out of your Chemtrail ass & learn a bit about actual history, because the exact same process occurred here & in Western Europe over the past couple of hundred years – My great grandmother had 12 kids, only 5 survived to adulthood. My grandmother had 5 kids – all of whom survived to adulthood & my Mom had 3 kids (and I’ve had two) – a nice steady progression of a reduction in family size that has nothing to do with your conspiracy theories & everything to do with health, survival rates & modern economic benefits.

  95. Steve Michaels
    March 28, 2012 at 2:16 am

    Nathan :
    Or, because this blog has been busy lately, your meanderings were not noticed, or took low priority.
    Of course, you could facilitate Lara’s response by providing some evidence for your claims. For example, cite evidence that 20% of the population has a mitochondrial disorder. Then, since there are a great number of different mitochondrial disorders, provide evidence that they all carry this risk of autism from vaccine exposure. Or for that matter, that any of them do (as the vaccine court has never compensated for autism, and even if they had, legal decisions are not scientific evidence). Then provide evidence that the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of the disease, since wild disease can cause significant damage to people with mitochondrial disorders. Then provide evidence of what screening modality could be applied to the entire population, that has adequate sensitivity and specificity, and is not too expensive or invasive (diagnosis of mito often requires muscle biopsy). Do those things, and then you might have a post worthy of more attention.

    Sorry Nathan, I am trying to catch up as I have not had time to scroll through the myriad replies on here and I have been very busy with life. I know you have replied to other things, and I shall address them as and when I can. I had to laugh at this one though as it certainly warrants as immediate response as necessary.

    You have the audacity to claim that the studies you present are the Gospel of vaccine research, yet you have been shown numerous conflicts of interest, conclusions not supported by the published results, titles not reflecting the research done and outright fraud and criminal behavior of the researchers, YET you won’t accept anything you disagree with without every word and grammatical marking being somehow supported through research. You have finally dropped the facade you hide behind and revealed the real thought process:

    If it supports your view, no amount of critical analysis of result, method or ethics will sway you, an if you disagree, ANY question of result, method, or ethics will constitute out of hand dismissal. The hypocrisy is astoundingly apparent.

    Chew on this one for a while, unless you think Harvard is a provax University….

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/242403.php

  96. Nathan
    March 28, 2012 at 10:31 am

    I am trying to catch up as I have not had time to scroll through the myriad replies on here and I have been very busy with life.

    Steve, you really don’t need to make excuses for not trolling.

    You have the audacity to claim that the studies you present are the Gospel of vaccine research

    Where? I have never made that claim. Hyperbole is not your friend.

    you have been shown numerous conflicts of interest, conclusions not supported by the published results, titles not reflecting the research done and outright fraud and criminal behavior of the researchers, YET you won’t accept anything you disagree with without every word and grammatical marking being somehow supported through research.

    Give me a break, Steve. You made a specific claim, and a specific demand. Handwaving about the existence of COIs, etc things in the literature does not relieve you of the responsibility of supporting your assertions with evidence. I’m not asking for a study for “every word and grammatical marking.” But you have provided nothing. And when you provide evidence, it will be subject to critique, including these very things you are concerned about, but even moreso for its strength in supporting your position. That’s the way it works.

    If it supports your view, no amount of critical analysis of result, method or ethics will sway you, an if you disagree, ANY question of result, method, or ethics will constitute out of hand dismissal.

    Not at all. I look at the totality of research and the conclusion that the consensus of these studies point to. I have never dismissed any study you have presented (which have been a precious few) “out of hand,” and once again I invite you to point out such a situation as you claim. Rather, I try as best I can to demonstrate why the poor science that your side relies on is, in fact, fundamentally flawed. You have little grasp of the scientific method, so you are unable to differentiate between critical flaws in a poor study and comparatively mild flaws in numerous well designed studies.

    Further, I do not perceive vaccines in black and white terms. I am willing to accept the science that shows areas for improvement in vaccines. For example, the short duration of immunity from pertussis vaccine. This is a problem and is a critical reason why we cannot acheive good herd immunity to this illness. But I am able to put this information into context, which is that the disease is far more dangerous than the vaccine, and a booster is worth it compared to risking the spread of the illness.

    Chew on this one for a while, unless you think Harvard is a provax University….

    Consider it chewed. No clue why you think that the fact that some viruses induce specific immune defenses without antibodies is relevant to our discussion. Please don’t take this as dismissing it “out of hand,” but I can’t really comment on something that does not appear to be relevant.

    And I have to chuckle about the complaint of “titles not reflecting the research done.” I’ve never heard this is a serious research problem, except perhaps to people like yourself who take a superficial approach to reading research.

  97. Steve Michaels
    March 29, 2012 at 7:33 am

    I finally get it now. Over the course of time, by comments and critiques are beginning to threaten you. Why else would you make such a condescending and gratuitous comment as, “Steve, you really don’t need to make excuses for not trolling”?

    In what way, shape or form do you turn an apology for not conversing with you (which I assume you wish for me to read and respond to your comments) into an ad hominem attack? Does anyone with whom you disagree and stands up for their views equate to a ‘troll’? Certainly not. That is the Fox News debate style that seeks to discredit the speaker without addressing WHAT is being spoken about.

    “Where? I have never made that claim. Hyperbole is not your friend.”

    You discount anything and everything from any antivax site based on bias and conflicts of interest and ulterior motives, yet you have repeatedly defended works by Thorsen and Offitt, for example.

    “And when you provide evidence, it will be subject to critique, including these very things you are concerned about, but even moreso for its strength in supporting your position.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130161521.htm

    http://autism.about.com/b/2008/04/13/how-significant-is-new-research-linking-mitochondrial-disorders-and-autism.htm

    Now I will admit that the research shows up to 60% of children with autism have a mitochondrial defect and I have not found any credible studies about the general population. However, my calls for testing of all children for mitochondrial defect as a counter-indication for the injection of vaccines still stands based on the research. Remember the oath, ‘do no harm’? It includes reasonable precautions when risk factors are known to exist and can be tested.

    “You have little grasp of the scientific method, so you are unable to differentiate between critical flaws in a poor study and comparatively mild flaws in numerous well designed studies.”

    Now this is where we are on completely different wavelengths. You accuse me of having ‘little grasp’ of the scientific method, yet you don’t seem to understand that the scientific method is not about ‘proving’ anything, it is about disproving hypotheses. In the scientific method, no matter how many times something appears to be validated, ONE instance of the contrary completely disproves the hypothesis. THAT is the scientific method. You see Nathan, I am dealing with the falsification of your claims while you are claiming your views to be truth. You cannot make this claim. It is ALL theory, and that leads nicely into the Harvard study.

    “Please don’t take this as dismissing it “out of hand,” but I can’t really comment on something that does not appear to be relevant.”

    Pardon? Not relevant? The entire vaccine paradigm is based on an assumption of how the immune system works. This study COMPLETELY undermines those assumptions. Put another way, this research FALSIFIES the theory of vaccines. I would hardly call that ‘not relevant’.

  98. Nathan
    March 29, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    I finally get it now. Over the course of time, by comments and critiques are beginning to threaten you.Why else would you make such a condescending and gratuitous comment as, “Steve, you really don’t need to make excuses for not trolling”?

    Mostly because it was a funny and apt thing to say. I know you like to think that you are spreading some kind of threatening truth, but really you are also a humorous diversion.

    In what way, shape or form do you turn an apology for not conversing with you (which I assume you wish for me to read and respond to your comments) into an ad hominem attack?

    Please continue to study these terms. This is not an ad hominem. Your arguments are poor for reasons completely independent of your behavior on this blog.

    Does anyone with whom you disagree and stands up for their views equate to a ‘troll’? Certainly not.

    No, as you say, certainly not. I equate you to an internet troll for (again) reasons completely independent of your disagreeing with me.

    You discount anything and everything from any antivax site based on bias and conflicts of interest and ulterior motives,

    Sites and opinion pieces, perhaps, but not original sources with actual data. Again I entreat you to find a time when I dismissed an actual study simply for “bias and conflicts of interest and ulterior motives.”

    yet you have repeatedly defended works by Thorsen and Offitt

    I certainly don’t defend Thorsen himself – I think he should be prosecuted. I do not, however, think that his subsequent transgressions change the data in the two studies he was a minor author in (now that would be ad hominem), and even if you wipe the two studies he was involved in from the fabric of existence, there is still overwhelming evidence that the MMR and thimerosal don’t cause autism. I don’t ever recall defending research from Offit, but I don’t know why I would have to.

    Now I will admit that the research shows up to 60% of children with autism have a mitochondrial defect and I have not found any credible studies about the general population.

    So you made it up? Not surprised.

    I am glad that you have found the evidence that autistic individuals may be more likely to have mitochondrial issues. Now you only have to figure out whether that is causative of autism, or whether autism puts you more at risk of problems with your mitochondria. And you have to provide evidence of the other things I listed above, to make your case that screening for mito should be required for vaccination. Mind you, if there actually was a mito screen, it would be in use anyway.

    et you don’t seem to understand that the scientific method is not about ‘proving’ anything

    When did I say it was? And you have yet to disprove anything. Which leads us nicely into the Harvard study again.

    The entire vaccine paradigm is based on an assumption of how the immune system works. This study COMPLETELY undermines those assumptions. Put another way, this research FALSIFIES the theory of vaccines.

    No, sorry. The finding that a virus can induce an non-antibody involved immune defense does not negate the fact that other viruses do create an antibody-mediated immune response, nor does it falsify the theory of vaccines, any more than finding penguins means that other birds cannot fly.

  99. Steve Michaels
    March 29, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    I must admit that you are VERY good at obfuscation of arguement Nathan. Let’s take things in turn.

    “Please continue to study these terms. This is not an ad hominem. Your arguments are poor for reasons completely independent of your behavior on this blog. ”

    You have attempted to characterize me as a ‘troll’ in order to negate in others minds the veracity of my arguments. I am not a troll. I only rarely make initial comments and then subsequently defend my position vigorously, hence the large number of comments. I am not purposely inflammatory.

    “Please continue to study these terms. This is not an ad hominem.”

    A definition of ‘ad hominem': An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author.

    Your characterization of ‘troll’ fits this definition. Your attempt at portraying me as either dim or uneducated by accusation of lack of understanding of the term is also an ad hominem attack.

    “I certainly don’t defend Thorsen himself – I think he should be prosecuted. I do not, however, think that his subsequent transgressions change the data in the two studies he was a minor author in , and even if you wipe the two studies he was involved in from the fabric of existence, there is still overwhelming evidence that the MMR and thimerosal don’t cause autism.”

    He was hardly a minor author. He was the main liaison between the research team and the CDC. He was also complicit in the misreporting of the data that was changed indirectly by the unreported changes in reported autism cases. The data presented, when adjusted for the unreported changes in autism case, actually shows a decrease in autism cases when thimerasol was removed from vaccines in Denmark. To be fair to Thorsen, the changes in reported cases was were given to the CDC, but the CDC chose to push for publication anyway. This is old territory. The Denmark study is worthless. The problem is that the other main studies that followed ALL either used the fraudulent Danish results or were funded by the CDC, which had a vested interest in protecting itself by creating more false research to appear to be accurate.

    “So you made it up? Not surprised.”

    No, the article also mentions the 20% figure. When I have made mistakes in statement, I have ‘manned up’ to them and addressed them. You are too pious to do the same. True research with integrity means owning up when wrong, and I have. You just obfuscate and pretend that valid rational arguments don’t exist.

    “No, sorry. The finding that a virus can induce an non-antibody involved immune defense does not negate the fact that other viruses do create an antibody-mediated immune response, nor does it falsify the theory of vaccines, any more than finding penguins means that other birds cannot fly.”

    The entire vaccine theory is based on antibody response to vaccines as a substitute for ‘wild’ exposure. If antibody response is secondary or irrelevant to the body being able to ward off disease, then the entire basis for vaccination is called into question. Your argument about penguins is completely irrelevant. The definition of bird does NOT include ability to fly. The definition of vaccine theory INCLUDES the notion that antibodies are ESSENTIAL to immune response and protection, hence the definition of titres in the evaluation of immune response. Titres are by definition the quantity of antibody present in an organism. The fact that there is a correlation of titres to protection does NOT imply a causal relationship given the new research, only coincidence.

  100. Nathan
    March 30, 2012 at 12:16 am

    You have attempted to characterize me as a ‘troll’ in order to negate in others minds the veracity of my arguments.

    Not at all. I deconstruct your arguments in great length. Commenting on your trollishness had nothing to do with the weakness of your arguments. I think that is quite clear. Had I said “Don’t listen to him, he’s just a antivaccine troll,” you would have a point. But since I take the time to demonstrate exactly why your assertions don’t hold up, it’s not an ad hominem. But when you misuse terms like these, it’s ad hilarium.

    He was hardly a minor author. He was the main liaison between the research team and the CDC.

    Sure, Steve. He was involved; it is your spin that he was the “main liason.” He certainly had responsibility. He was still a minor author. And rather than go into how, in fact, there was not misreporting in the studies, I will simply refer back to the same converation we have had at least twice now.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2011/11/02/vaccines-autisms-great-divide/#comment-5346

    The problem is that the other main studies that followed ALL either used the fraudulent Danish results or were funded by the CDC, which had a vested interest in protecting itself by creating more false research to appear to be accurate.

    See, you do get ad hominem after all! Good job!

    No, the article also mentions the 20% figure.

    In autistics, not in the general population. Nice try, though. You wanna man up about that mistake or claim it was a misspeak? The latter is fine; I’m used to it.

    If antibody response is secondary or irrelevant to the body being able to ward off disease, then the entire basis for vaccination is called into question.

    But nothing in the study suggests that it is secondary or irrelevant. It simply implies that there are other ways in which immunity can be induced with certain vaccines.

    The definition of vaccine theory INCLUDES the notion that antibodies are ESSENTIAL to immune response and protection, hence the definition of titres in the evaluation of immune response.

    Nope. It is well known that there are other kinds of immunity that do not require antibodies, like innate immunity. Vaccines rely upon the well-demonstrated theory (if you really want to call it that) that antibodies do in fact confer immunity. This does not preclude the possibility that other forms of adaptive immunity are possible as well. Perhaps a traditional vaccine would not be effective against that specific virus, I don’t know. It does not mean that they are not effective against the viruses currently targeted by the vaccines. Clearly they are. Where do you think all the chickenpox in the US suddenly went?

  101. Steve Michaels
    March 30, 2012 at 3:22 am

    What I find most infuriating about you Nathan, and I hope others can see it too, is that you say you don’t do things while you are actually doing them. You say you do not explicitly call me a troll to undermine my arguments while calling me a troll to undermine my arguments.

    “Sure, Steve. He was involved; it is your spin that he was the “main liason.” He certainly had responsibility. He was still a minor author. And rather than go into how, in fact, there was not misreporting in the studies, I will simply refer back to the same converation we have had at least twice now.”

    Yes we have had this conversation before. The leaked emails indicate that Thorsen was a paid consultant of the CDC at the time of the commissioning of the research and went on to be the chief liasion between the university and the CDC and it was Thorsen’s contacts at the CDC who personally lobbied Pediatrics to publish the results which were too questionable to be published in JAMA or NEJM.

    “In autistics, not in the general population. Nice try, though. You wanna man up about that mistake or claim it was a misspeak? The latter is fine; I’m used to it.”

    Oh please, Nathan! I did ‘man up’ or did you not read my comment? Let me refresh your memory:

    “No, the article also mentions the 20% figure. When I have made mistakes in statement, I have ‘manned up’ to them and addressed them. You are too pious to do the same. True research with integrity means owning up when wrong, and I have.”

    Add to that my comment in 97 which you have already quoted and are now pretending I did not make:

    “Now I will admit that the research shows up to 60% of children with autism have a mitochondrial defect and I have not found any credible studies about the general population.”

    Why are you trying to repeatedly make accusations about me which are easily and demonstrably untrue? Please don’t say, ‘oh so you made it up’. I am talking about the fact that I clarified and corrected and yet you harp on as if I had not.

    “But nothing in the study suggests that it is secondary or irrelevant. It simply implies that there are other ways in which immunity can be induced with certain vaccines.”

    It means that the vaccination model based on triggering adaptive immunity is not accurate. That is what, in the scientific method, is call theory falsification. Face it, vaccine science does not understand the complex methods by which immunity is conferred. The study does not prove anything except that the base theory is wrong. Falsification. Although I am glad you dropped your idiotic penguin analogy.

    “Clearly they are. Where do you think all the chickenpox in the US suddenly went?”

    Underground. Every child is being given a vaccine which includes the known side effect of chicken pox. Only now it is called a side effect and not a disease.

  102. March 30, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    Yes Lawrence, I have heard Bill Gates the eugenicist trying to explain how vaccines can be used to reduce population growth. I am also aware this “humanitarian” whose father has long been involved with the eugenics group Planned Parenthood (a rebranded organization birthed out of the American Eugenics Society) finances the development of covert vaccine delivery methods, GMO’s (linked to cancer and decreased fertility, but supposedly the solution to world hunger – yeah, if all the starving Africans are dead I guess they won’t be hungry anymore!), as well as geoengineering, which the elite claim is only in the research phase, but which overwhelming evidence suggests has already been fully implemented worldwide and is harming the environment and the health of all living things (again, please see “What In The World Are They Spraying?”).

    Quit worrying about why I’M so obsessed with chemtrails, a.k.a. geoengineering and ask yourself why Bill Gates, (arguably the most influential vaccine advocate on earth) is, and whether a guy who is all for destroying the planet via GMOs and geoengineering really has our children’s best interests at heart. Is Bill Gates a medical doctor? A virologist?
    A major stakeholder in the vaccine racket who really seems to get off on playing god?

    “So, get your head out of your Chemtrail ass & learn a bit about actual history.”

    Why the need to be such a condescending a**hole, Lawrence? Bet you don’t talk to people like that in real life, huh tough guy? I may strongly disagree with many of the opinions expressed here, but again, see no need to be rude or hostile to get my point across.

    You must be very threatened by my comments to react so childishly. Maybe rather than trying to prove how intellectually superior you are to someone you call delusional, you should spend some time reflecting on why you feel the need to do so in the first place.

    I mean, I’m a kook, right? My claims are outrageous, so they’re totally harmless, right Lawrence? So why have the ramblings of a crazy person captured your interest to the degree that you have been following and responding to my comments for several weeks over 2 websites even though you state “I found your posts & arguments to be so insane and without a shred of merit that I didn’t bother to post in response.”?

    I just don’t see the gratification of picking on people, at a gradeschool level mentality, just because we happen to see things differently. I appreciate our differences. Even you are teaching me something, Lawrence, and I really value your opinion, however intensely we may disagree. My hope for you is that you will learn to value and respect others with whom you may not always see eye-to-eye. You can learn a lot more that way, and you might even come to find some of us weirdos are pretty terrific people, too. :)

  103. Lawrence
    March 30, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    @Tanya – you are a kook & I have no problem saying that. Your beliefs are right up there with the crazy 911 truther people. I’m not worried about the effect of your beliefs on others – only on yourself.

    I recommend that you read Matt Tabibi’s book, “The Great Derangement.” I bet you it will hit very close to home on exactly why you believe what you do.

  104. Nathan
    March 30, 2012 at 11:25 pm

    Steve, the frequency with which you make blatantly false statements of fact make ad hominemns unnecessary. Your arguments undermine themselves. And sometimes, a wisecrack is just a wisecrack. When we first started having coversations you accused be of “derogatory bigotry” for no readily apparent reason (except that I don’t think you knew what the terms meant) and I didn’t have a fit like this about it.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2011/01/06/undoing-the-damage/#comment-1677

    However, I do personally believe the way in which you have seized upon this minor slight, and its alleged “undermining” reveals a certain insecurity about your arguments. Though I have no doubt that mentioning this will only inspire you to post all the more with even more bizarre claims, in a Dunning Kruger-esque fashion.

    Yes we have had this conversation before. The leaked emails indicate that Thorsen was a paid consultant of the CDC at the time of the commissioning of the research and went on to be the chief liasion between the university and the CDC and it was Thorsen’s contacts at the CDC who personally lobbied Pediatrics to publish the results which were too questionable to be published in JAMA or NEJM.

    Wait – last time you claimed that the CDC offered him a position after his embezzlement charges. Do please try to keep your conspiracies straight. Write them down or something. And when I asked you for evidence that the article was rejected from other journals for being “questionable” (that time you actually said “poorly managed, researched and produced”) you declined to provide.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2011/11/02/vaccines-autisms-great-divide/#comment-5458

    Oh please, Nathan! I did ‘man up’ or did you not read my comment?

    Your comments do not explain why you claimed that mitochondrial disorders were 20% in the population at large in the first place. You could just say, “Oops, I mean the autistic population,” or “I misread that,” or, if you felt like being honest, “I made that up.” Which is it?

    It means that the vaccination model based on triggering adaptive immunity is not accurate.

    It does not, and I suggest you actually talk to an immunologist about this because apparently I am not able to get through to you. Finding that a single virus can cause another form of adaptive immunity does not negate the entire previous forms of adaptive immunity.

    Face it, vaccine science does not understand the complex methods by which immunity is conferred.

    Well, I’m quite certain you don’t, since I know you’re just parroting Natural News.

    Every child is being given a vaccine which includes the known side effect of chicken pox. Only now it is called a side effect and not a disease.

    Wild chickenpox isn’t. I’m talking about wild chickenpox, not a few outcroppings of vesicles that can occasionally occur with the attenuated vaccine. Besides, you dodged the point of the question. If all of a sudden, we were wrong all along and vaccines don’t actually work (D’Oh!) where did the wild chickenpox go? Or every other vaccine preventable disease for that matter? They just coincidentally slipped off on holiday within a few years of widespread vaccination?

  105. Lawrence
    March 31, 2012 at 7:27 am

    @Tanya – how about reading the book, then maybe we can talk.

    http://www.cdc.gov/omhd/populations/BAA/BAA.htm#Ten

    Heart Disease is the #1 cause of death for African Americans – research is your friend.

  106. March 31, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Yes Lawrence, research is your friend. You should give it a try sometime. In 2008, according to the CDC’s figures, there were roughly 150 000 deaths from heart disease among African Americans. In 2004, 50 out of every 1000 women had an abortion. In 2010, there were about 42 million black people living in the US, so we’ll do a rough estimate, based on the fact that there are more women than men in the US and say there were about 22 million black women living in the US in 2010. Divided by 1000 is 22 thousand multiplied by 50 abortions equals ONE MILLION ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND ABORTIONS OF BLACK AMERICAN BABIES PER YEAR! So almost 10 times more black Americans are ABORTED each year than die of heart disease.

    Of course the CDC doesn’t want to advertise this fact, so they do not list abortion as a cause of death. You have to dig and not take everything you read at face value. Googling “leading cause of death among african americans” is hardly research, Lawrence. :)

  107. March 31, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Oops, my previous post was in reply to your last post.

  108. March 31, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    Ha! Did you notice? The post you were replying to must’ve hit a nerve with the blog owners because it’s been removed. I did say your attitude made pro-vaxers look like self-important “somethings”. Not the worst word I have seen used in the comments here, but I have changed the term to jerk. Hopefully that appeases the censors.

    My original post in reply to Lawrence (#96):

    So then Bill “Mr. Vaccine” Gates hasn’t invested generously in geoengineering & GMO research? He doesn’t own shares in Monsanto? He doesn’t fund research into methods of covert vaccine delivery and covert sterilization? His father was never president of an organization (Planned Parenthood) founded by an openly racist eugenicist (Margaret Sanger) whose eugenics philosophy resonated strongly with the KKK and who is quoted as saying “Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated.”?

    Today the leading cause of death among blacks in America is abortion, made possible by Planned Parenthood. Gates is open about his father’s role in inspiring his funding of reproductive health programs, but that’s nothing, right? Bill Gates only wants what’s best for the children and I am a kook.

    I notice that when you can’t, or are to lazy to debate someone intelligently, you poke fun at them. Call them crazy, or allude to them being intellectually inferior. Where is all this hostility coming from?

    I disagree strongly with a lot of what is being said here, but I see no need, nor do I have the desire, to belittle anyone or call those with whom I disagree crazy. I speak my views and spread awareness out of love for my fellow human, not out of disdain for anyone who doesn’t think just like me.

    If I do encounter people who I believe could be mentally ill, even delusional, I show them compassion and respect. Most adults are capable of disagreeing, even passionately so, while still respecting those with whom we disagree. Why is this so hard for you, Lawrence?

    Do you really think this behaviour is helping your cause? You are just making pro-vaxers look like self-important little jerks. Grow up and if you really care about the poor sick children being harmed by us non-vaxers, get off your bum and go to something positive to help them. Putting people down like this serves nothing but your ego, Lawrence.

    PS: Although I have mentioned it previously, for those who haven’t read my other posts, I highly recommend the documentary (can be viewed for free on YouTube) “Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement”, for further information on the eugenics/depopulation agenda being carried out against the human race via our food, water, air, pharmaceutical, etc.

  109. April 14, 2012 at 11:36 pm

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  110. April 18, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Wow. people must not have read your comment or they would have responded. I’m sorry you don’t feel as though you will be able to provide for your autistic daughter after your death, but your fear of what will become of her should not automatically lead to you wanting everyone to not be immunized. It is an attempt at logical thinking at its most flawed. I don’t think it’s a good idea to return to the old days where measles and polio and other diseases killed and crippled and hospitalized large numbers of people just for your peace of mind, especially when the link between autism and vaccinations has yet to be substantiated.

  111. Donna
    April 20, 2012 at 2:11 am

    One case of a child who developed autism BEFORE he got an MMR versus thousands upon thousands of innocent children harmed by vaccines, including the MMR daily over years and years. I’d say the science that “supports” autism from unknown cause is severely lacking. Vaccines contain known neurotoxins, formeldahyde, preservatives in the form of mercury, and viruses that cause diseases. Chemical cocktails injected into the body of little babies and children are a recipe for disaster, and a serious health risk. If you think vaccines are safe, go ahead and continue to vaccinate. But please try to refrain from insisting that these toxic injections should be pushed on others who know better. The author fails to tell us what other vaccines this child recieved, only tells us the child “did not get the MMR.” You gotta wonder who writes this stuff.

  112. Kelly
    April 20, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Sigh. No Donna. It is not just one story that shows the MMR doesn’t cause autism. There are several studies that also reach that conclusion.

    The ingredients in vaccines are not neurotoxic in the concentrations found in the vaccines. Formaldehyde is made in much larger concentrations by your own body. Thimerosal has not be linked with autism, and the viruses in the vaccine are attenuated, which means they don’t cause disease.

    What is a serious health risk is leaving your baby unvaccinated. The vaccine preventable diseases maim and kill and there is no treatment.

    Please try to refrain from spreading this misinformation in the future. Perhaps learn something about the topic before you offer your uneducated opinion.

  113. Chris
    April 20, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Donna, the MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn strain of mumps vaccine was introduced in 1971 in the USA. It has never contained mercury or formaldehyde in its over forty years of use.

    Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show there was an increase of autism in the USA starting in the early 1970s. Then provide the cites that show that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Remember that measles used to kill hundreds of Americans each year, and cause thousands more to be permanently disabled (deafness, blindness, mental retardation, and sometimes a long slow death from SSPE).

  114. Lara Lohne
    April 20, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Actually Donna, if you had read my words correctly, and my comments after, you will have noticed me say my story is not unique, other then the fact that I was once anti vaccine. There are thousands of parents of children with autism who developed it without vaccines. I am not alone, just merely the one who shared my story. Based on the abuse I have sustained from the anti-vaccine autism community, I can understand why these other parents may not wish to speak up.

    The majority, the VAST majority, of parents of autistic children do not believe vaccines played any role whatsoever in the development of their child’s autism, in fact, most don’t care about this debate at all, only in helping their children any way they can. You and your fellows are not as far flung and numerous as you wish to believe. Given that out of the millions of children who have autism, only 5000 participated in the autism omnibus hearings, should be a little bit of a clue that you are not in the majority in this issue. You simply appear to be because you and your fellows chime in with your misinformation nearly as soon as any vaccine advocacy blog is posted. You feel you outnumber the rest of us because you aren’t silenced on pro-vaccine blogs like we are on anti-vaccine blogs. That also speaks volumes to me. Your beliefs can’t actually stand up to the scrutiny of the vaccine advocates so you silence us, but science can withstand any fantasy that unfolds from your camp, it has for decades and it will continue to do so.

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  116. cm@yahoo.com
    January 12, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    Did your son receive the Vitamin K shot? I wouldn’t have thought twice about this until my son was given an overdose of this shot in the hospital. He experienced jaundice for a long period of time and a lot of digestive problems. After some research I discovered that there are a lot of horrible ingredients in this shot and there’s some question to the safety of this. Your story does not prove anything.

  117. January 12, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    @cm – and your lack of evidence or relevant citations doesn’t prove anything either.

  118. novalox
    January 12, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    @cm

    Have you ever heard of the saying “The dose is the poison?”

    Also, [citation needed], or we must assume that you are lying.

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    January 13, 2013 at 12:35 pm

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  122. mplo
    March 9, 2013 at 4:13 am

    I had the mumps…on both sides at once, when I was in pre-school, and they hurt. (There was not vaccine against mumps or measles back then.). However, I did have a shot of gamma globulin, which prevented me from getting a worse case of measles in the fifth grade. However, since I was vaccinated against pertussis, diptheria and tetanus, as well as polio, I never got any of those diseases, thank heavens.

  123. May 2, 2013 at 4:01 pm

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  124. JamieH
    October 22, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    Lara I’m just curious how you were able to take your baby home from the hospital without any vaccinations at all. They gave my new born shots before we were released to go home.

  125. January 31, 2014 at 9:50 pm

    I wonder how many anti-vaxxers put a 1/10th of the effort into “vetting” a story that agrees with their narrative.

  126. Lawrence
    January 31, 2014 at 10:12 pm

    @Michael – I doubt any of them do….

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  128. Jo
    April 2, 2014 at 12:43 pm

    Thank you! You’re last statement makes the most sense to me! Seriously, you’d rather have your child susceptible to a horrible, life/threatening disease than chance them being diagnosed with autism? Autism can be dabilitating, I don’t want to come off as though I think it’s no big deal. I know from experience how hard it can be for a child and their families. With autism though, they are alive! The vaccines provide protection against diseases that can cause death! I sympathize with parents of autistic children. It’s so difficult not to get on the anti-vaccination train. No one else seems to be giving us any real answers as to why it happens. It’s scary and when we’re scared and without answers we tend to look for any answer that sounds logical. It may sound logical but it is not proven.

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