Home > Expert Insights, Preventable Diseases, Science & Research > Responsible Nurses, and Then There’s This

Responsible Nurses, and Then There’s This

January 17, 2012

Recently a friend and nurse, who I adore, shared a video with me.  Now I know my friend to be a very diligent nurse and she’s often discussed how frustrating it is to come across Facebook pages and YouTube videos where nurses dangerously suggest that people should not vaccinate their children.  After reviewing this video, I knew it must have been a major dissapointment to my friend, both personally, and professionally.  While I wasn’t completely surprised by the comments this particular “Patriot Nurse” made, I am a bit concerned about the information she presents.  http://youtu.be/riM4xfrzjAY

At the beginning, the “Patriot Nurse” states that the comments are turned off, but explains this is because she is only interested in “intelligent debate”.  As far as I’m concerned, debate only happens when both sides get to present their position.  So, after viewing the video I figured that we could certainly help facilitate debate for the “Patriot Nurse”.

(Interestingly enough, it’s unclear whether this video is tied in any way to Rachel Greene of the Patriot Nurse blog.  Could this be the same Rachel Greene who works as a nurse in a TN birthing center?  I certainly hope not.  As far as the informed consent she calls for in her video, I would have to wonder if the parents giving birth in that center are fully informed about her views on vaccines. )

To kick off the discussion, I wanted to begin with comments I received from another nurse with serious objections to what the “Patriot Nurse” states in the video above.  As a Canadian nurse, with an additional background in biology, who works at a large teaching hospital, she’ll tell you… don’t’ take her word for anything, but instead, be wary of individuals who use You Tube to spout off misinformation and try to convince you not to protect your children from preventable disease.

Of course, as always, we welcome your comments in an intelligent debate below.  

Canadian Nurse comments as follows:

1) The “Patriot Nurse” talks about the additives present in vaccines.

As we all know there is no mercury in vaccines – there was never mercury in vaccines. There WAS thimerosal, which is a mercury compound. Table salt is a chlorine compound. Basic chemistry teaches us that simply because something has a compound in it that might be dangerous on its own doesn’t mean that it’s dangerous in all cases. H2o is obviously not dangerous, but take away that “o”, and it becomes combustible.

This is thimerosal: C9H9HgNaO2S
This is mercury present in fish – methyl mercury: [CH3Hg]+

She gives an example of a tuna sandwich. She may claim that because the “gut” is a semi-permeable membrane that eating fish with mercury would be different than injecting mercury.

Two issues:

a) As discussed, there is no mercury in vaccines. And the two types of “mercury” you’re discussing are not molecularly similar.
b) The gut does NOT stop mercury from reaching the bloodstream. In fact, Health Canada states: “When fish or other foods contaminated with methyl mercury are consumed, approximately 95% of the methyl mercury is absorbed through the stomach and intestinal tract, then transferred to the blood stream and distributed throughout the body.”

Which means that ingestion of mercury is not a protective mechanism.

Aluminum is the most abundant element in our environment. We ingest sizable amounts of it on a daily basis. Aluminum is more plentiful in breast milk than vaccines; an infant will ingest more aluminum from breastfeeding than all the childhood vaccines put together.
“During the first 6 months of life, infants could receive about 4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. That’s not very much: a milligram is one-thousandth of a gram and a gram is the weight of one-fifth of a teaspoon of water. During the same period, babies will also receive about 10 milligrams of aluminum in breast milk, about 40 milligrams in infant formula, or about 120 milligrams in soy-based formula.” (http://www.chop.edu/export/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/aluminum.pdf)


Aluminum – regardless of route of entry is excreted very efficiently by the kidneys.
“Most of the aluminum that enters the body is eliminated quickly. Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters
the bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food is absorbed through the intestines into the blood. Either way, most of the aluminum in the bloodstream is immediately bound by a protein called transferrin, which carries aluminum to the kidneys where it is eliminated from the body. About 50 percent of aluminum in vaccines or in food is eliminated in less than 24 hours; 85 percent is eliminated in two weeks and 96 percent is eliminated in three years. The ability of the body to rapidly eliminate aluminum accounts for its excellent record of safety.” (http://www.chop.edu/export/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/aluminum.pdf)

2) The “Patriot Nurse” states that vaccines “bypass the gut, which is our natural defense mechanism”.
Many pathogens bypass the gut, so I don’t see how this is relevant.  I assume she’s trying to make some point that vaccines bypass the mucous membranes. And? We vaccinate against the diseases we do, in part, BECAUSE we are susceptible to them as they EASILY bypass our innate defenses.  Mucous membranes cannot kill a pathogen.

3) The “Patriot Nurse” trots out the autism canard.
As we all know, the big concern was thimersol causing autism. After the removal of thimersol from vaccines, the rate of autism went UP – which is not what we would expect to see if thimersol was a causative factor. There have been so many studies showing zero correlation between vaccination and autism that I’m amazed every time I even see this brought up.
Has she seen the scientific studies showing a DROP in autism amongst vaccinated versus unvaccinated children?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/09/13/peds.2010-0309.full.pdf+html?maxtoshow&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT&fulltext=vaccine+mercurfy&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
http://resources.cpha.ca/CCIAP/data/1017e.pdf
http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/20021107.pdf
http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/113/2/259.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14519711
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15342825

So, either she’s mistaken about vaccines and autism, or she believes there is a worldwide conspiracy of biomed professionals who want to poison our kids.

4) The “Patriot Nurse” talks about the vaccine schedule.

Does she know that despite the increasing number of vaccines available, there is a smaller amount of adjuvant and pathogen per vaccine. The load on the body is actually LESS than it was 20 or 30 years ago.  “Vaccines do not overwhelm the immune system. Although the infant immune system is relatively naive, it is immediately capable of generating a vast array of protective responses; even conservative estimates predict the capacity to respond to thousands of vaccines simultaneously.” 
5) The “Patriot Nurse” states that vaccines cause “over-stimulation”.

Of what? The immune system that encounters literally thousands of pathogens on a daily basis?
“Vaccines do not overwhelm the immune system; conservative estimates predict that the immune system can respond to thousands of viruses simultaneously.”
6) The “Patriot Nurse” goes on to discuss allergies and autoimmune disorders, stating that she couldn’t figure out anything OTHER than vaccines that could have caused a spike in said conditions.
I must point out that simply because SHE can’t think of something doesn’t necessitate that there ISN’T something. I am a nurse with an additional degree in biology. I respect and love nursing. But we are not scientists. We are not immunologists. And we shouldn’t be speaking authoritatively on the causative factors of allergies or autoimmune disorders – that’s not within our scope.

“Only in a few rare cases, however, has autoimmune pathology been firmly associated with particular vaccines.” (http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf)

7) The “Patriot Nurse” talks about breast milk being the only thing necessary to protect a neonate.

Breast milk can only provide antibodies to a child for things that the mother is immune to. If the mother has never HAD MENINGITIS she does not have antibodies to pass on that will protect her baby from meningitis.  Additionally, it’s also well known that anti-bodies in breast milk taper greatly at the 6 month mark.

Vaccines are safe and effective. Scientific study has shown this to be true, beyond a shadow of a doubt. No vaccine – or any medication – is without risks, and I would encourage people to speak to their physician if they are having doubts or questions. Remember that anyone can post anything they wish on the internet – be it true or not. And simply because something SOUNDS authoritative does not make it correct.

  1. Snoozie
    January 17, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    The analysis of this video by the Canadian nurse is wonderful in its depth. I applaud her for making it all the way through this video and for showing that nurses really can be intelligent and responsible.

  2. Krissy M.
    January 17, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    This woman ought to be ashamed of herself. People look to nurses as reliable caretakers…lives are in her hands. If she does work at that birthing center linked to above, I hope they take this seriously.

  3. M
    January 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    I hope her employer does not condone her nonsense.

  4. January 17, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    While sometimes it may seem easier to ignore youtube posters and Facebook pages that post misinformation, ignoring these sources of propaganda poses a credible threat to our communities. A nurses job is to educate and advocate for the patient. When a registered nurse ignores the substantial medical studies & the mountains of scientific validity of immunizations, and would rather rely on personal blogs and anti-science websites to promote incorrect views, the public health is placed at risk.

    I am very glad that the ‘real’ nurse took her time to debunk the many myths and misconceptions of science. Learning and education doesn’t end in nursing school. Nurses must continuously update their knowledge and bedside skills using credible sources of information. In regards to immunizations, I suggest that nurses check out The American Nurse Association- http://www.anaimmunize.org to keep fresh with current vaccine data.

    I do hope that any patient of the the “Patriot Nurse” was remedified and educated in the true pro/cons of vaccinations and the very real threat of vaccine-preventable dieases.

  5. erika
    January 17, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Terrifying that a health care professional responsible for the care of patients, some in critical health, can spout so much false information about medicine and science. Canadian Nurse did an excellent job. Thank you to all the nurses that practice evidence based medicine and follow the science, not what is “trendy”

  6. Amy
    January 17, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    Thank GOD someone out there is for health choices!! No one else seems to care about that and then when you are injured by a vaccine, NO ONE is held accountable.

  7. January 17, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    Amen to that Amy!

  8. January 17, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    For someone who claims to deliver “No-nonsense [sic], straight talk, ” she seems to talk a awful lot of nonsense straight out of her …

  9. January 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    “Antibodies in breastmilk” are a myth. There are no disease specific antibodies in breastmilk beyond two weeks post partum. The bulk of maternal immunity is transplacental – breastfeeding protects against upper respiratory and gastrointestinal bugs like polio, hib, pneumococcus, but not against measles, pertussis and Co.

    And Amy – the only reason misinformed, self appointed, anti-vaccine activists like that “patriotic nurse” can advocate “choices” (i.e. vaccine refusal) is that non-vaccinators are free riding on the herd immunity generated by sensible people who vaccinate (and the awesome nurses who vaccinate them!).

  10. January 17, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    Sorry but you are sadly mis-informed. Patriot nurse has VERY valid points and it is a real shame that people just exuse these points simply as scare mongering etc. I have TWO children who suffered adverse effects from vaccines and now realise (after 7 years of research) that vaccine injury happens A LOT and when you look even closer, many/most are ineffective! If you truly are interested in this debate I would suggest simply reading the DOCTORS prescribing information leaflet that comes with a vaccine (the patient info is insufficient). Research the ingredients (especially adjuvants- and check out how it was “harvested” if applicable). Also check out who/what groups it has and has not been tested on. Suprisingly many vaccines they push on (for example) pregnant women have never been tested on them/that group. Look at what are toxic amounts of ingredients mentioned- make sure you remember when reading that these vaccines are also NOT tested in combination or for their combined effects even though they are regularly given in combination. etc…. I vaccinated my kids. I thought I was being a good mother, I thought I was protecting them, I thought I was doing the right thing by just believing what my doctor told me rather than researching myself. If I knew then what I do now, I would never had let my children be vaccinated. natural immunity is FAR superior. Now my children are damaged/injured because I didn’t know. Don’t just brush off what others have to say. Try to listen. Stop thinking like a herd. Thanks….

  11. January 17, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    IF you were correct in your theory about “only reason misinformed, self appointed, anti-vaccine activists like that “patriotic nurse” can advocate “choices” (i.e. vaccine refusal)” then you who choose to take up vaccines have nothing to worry about right? If the vaccines work, you are protected. So allow us to make our choices in peace. We don’t complain when our unvaccinated kids catch things from the vaccinated ones!

  12. January 17, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    The only evidence I have seen on vaccines is negative Erika. Try reading some non-biased peer reviewed published studies. There are many for you to read if you REALLY are interested in “evidence based medicine”…. I think many people tend to forget that just because something was done in a study does not mean it was reliable, You need to consider that data can be manipulated in such a way as to give a false impression. If you look at these studies close enough you can decide for yourself which ones have. Any study performed by a pharma company or someone who is paid by them etc is unreliable (obviously)…..

  13. Heather
    January 17, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Sarah,

    The problem with this argument is that there are people who cannot be vaccinated (young babies for example) who depend on herd immunity every bit as much as you do. The difference between you and them is that they have no choice. And, God forbid, if you or a member of your unvaccinated family were to contract a vaccine-preventable illness and pass it on to someone unable to be vaccinated, you would be morally culpable if they were to die or suffer irreperable harm. Your choice puts those who have no choice at risk.

  14. Katrina Fox
    January 17, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    How is it that she is even a nurse in the first place if she is spouting these lies! That’s horrible to NOT vaccinate for stupid reasons! There are kids out there that are getting measles and so many other deadly things cause their parents are listening to these stupid people about their kids getting autism from vaccinations.
    I was told by my son’s nurse that the only accocioation with autism and vaccines is cause autism actually shows about the time of the first vaccinations of children. I don’t know if that is really true, but that is what she had told me and my son doesn’t have autism! Mainly cause autism isn’t in my family line. Please correct me if I am wrong, cause I am not actually an expert on this and I just hear from what other’s tell me, though I never believed people who told me not to vaccinate my son.

  15. Rachel
    January 17, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Thank you!!! Someone posted this video on a natural parenting Facebook group I’m on. As just about the only pro vax person I was able to mint a reasonable response, but my back ground is not in science and I’m very grateful for this specific info! When I had my little girl I wasn’t sure about vaccines, so many people I knew weren’t doing them or delaying them, but the more I learn the more confident I am in my decision to vaccinate. Videos like this seem to be the best the anti vax side has to offer, and they just don’t pass even a minimal test for critical thinking.

  16. January 17, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    The American Nursing Association is a federally funded organization by the Dept of Health. Some people would argue that the Dept of health have their own motives for encouraging vaccine uptake (we won’t get into this as just the basics is enough for you to take in). I would not consider this to be a “credible sources of information” why don’t you actually look at scientific studies that were peer reviewed, published and NOT paid for by a pharma company or anyone connected to a gov’t body? You would be more likely then to have a non-biased source….

  17. erika
    January 17, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Thanks, but ill follow the advice of our 3 pediatricians, 2 specialists, multiple nurses, and heart surgeon, who know my child’s body muh better than you or any youtube nurse.

  18. January 17, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    erika :
    Thanks, but ill follow the advice of our 3 pediatricians, 2 specialists, multiple nurses, and heart surgeon, who know my child’s body muh better than you or any youtube nurse.

    Your choice but you don’t know my qualifications nor do you know the nurses that appeared on youtube (I choose to believe the bio mechanic scientist I worked with as well as a person I worked with who is a pediatrician certified by the American Board of Pediatrics and a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics since then. who is licensed in more than one state and who has testified as a medical expert in pediatric disability, vaccine injury compensation and Child Abuse/Shaken Baby Syndrome cases.
    This doctor is the Pediatric Director of the R.I. Child Development Study. Because of their extensive training in infectious diseases, they have a deep knowledge of vaccines, their benefits and their complications and they have published extensively on the subject. This doctor is also experienced in reviewing VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) reports and evaluating their significance and limitations). Interesting that you already have made your choice, rather than just consider that there may be more genuine info than what you have already been spoon fed….. I am not surprised by your choice.

  19. January 17, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Katrina, you said “I was told by my son’s nurse that the only accocioation with autism and vaccines is cause autism actually shows about the time of the first vaccinations of children. I don’t know if that is really true”. and you said “Please correct me if I am wrong, cause I am not actually an expert on this and I just hear from what other’s tell me”, I think that it is brave of you to admit that you are not sure and are just taking the work of what the nurse told you. I think it is a shame that others can not admit to this as well. I wonder why it is that you “never believed people who told me not to vaccinate my son” and chose to just go for the vaccination without any question or research? Your son may not have autism that is correct. But this is a quote from an aquaintence of mine and it is very accurate and something to consider when vaccinating (tests and studies on LONG TERM health effects have not been done/established, however this is what evidence is pointing to….) “Osteoporosis, Fibromyalgia (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome), Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Parkinson’s, ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis) & Autism Spectrum Disorder, all manifestations of the same vaccine derived heavy metal-virus-mycoplasma-excipie​nt “sludge” breaching the body’s delicate “electrical grid” nerve center (blood barrier, Myelin sheath & meninges); literally “short-circuiting” the operation of the nervous system” If anyone is interested, and wants to get into deeper science and vaccine history, check out “SV-40″

  20. erika
    January 17, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    So I should believe you and one doctor you recommend as opposed to the global medical community and scientific evidence, as well as our own doctors and specialists who saved my child’s life? I go by the advice of our experts and evidence, not internet commentors who make claims as to their qualifiations but do not have science to back up their argument against vaccines.

  21. Katrina Fox
    January 17, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    But, if all of this is true, Sarah, then why is it that I don’t have any of the diseases or anything I was vaccinated for? You say that there is a lot of people who have problems stemming from vaccinations, but I have yet to meet a person who has had any associations in any of the five states I’ve been to like that. I am happy that you listen to your children’s doctors and stuff, but just cause it isn’t safe for your kids don’t mean it is isn’t safe for all kids. My friend is in a place where the unvaccinated kids are getting meales really badly to the point where most are dying from it. I understand perfectly that the choice to vaccinate is a just that; a choice, but when women like this nurse above talks about this stuff when most just isn’t true, then it creates a delima on all children who need the vaccines. I know my own share of nurses as well that say the same thing as me.
    It’s not really that I listen to what people tell me, it is more of I watch the consequences of others. I do listen to everyone when I can, but I just find it hard to believe that when you say alot of children have adverse affects from vaccinations when I have seen very very few that have any affects at all and they are too far away from when they were vaccinated to truly be linked to it. And as far as websites, I would say to look at more than just one site, cause not everyone tells the truth online. I had to learn that very early on when I was browsing on the internet for some info.
    I just wish for people to truly understand what the risks are for not just their children, but for all others as well. That’s what’s wrong with today. People just listen and do rather than think of consequences and the further affects of their actions. I do understand that some kids can’t have immunizations or that their bodies may not be able to fully deal with everything given to them, but that is just a small percentage of kids, and people need to understand that not all kids are the same. My son has had all his shots. His checkup is in feb, he will be 9 months, and he has had no problems and neither have any of the people’s kids that have had vaccinations where I live and where I have lived before. I don’t really like debates, cause in the end, no one wins cause there is just too much difference between everyone, but I stick to my path of giving my son vaccinations and when I have a daughter she will get them too, unless a doctor or someone who is an expert on this tells me otherwise. I do not wish to force people to vaccinate their children if it is what they think is best, but they need to get all the facts, not just the negatives of vaccinations.
    I am sorry if I ramble, but it is just what I do when I am on a roll on a subject. I do not wish to upset anyone nor do I wish to force anyone on my opinons. I have had that happen to me too many times to want to do it to anyone else.

  22. Chris
    January 17, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Please post the papers written by this doctor that are indexed on PubMed.

    Essentially, for everything you have posted the only response is: citation needed.

  23. January 17, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Quite simply, Patriot Nurse keeps referring to her own opinion as some sort of authority. This patently ridiculous. This video would only work for people who either think Patriot Nurse is an authority or for Patriot Nurse herself.

  24. January 17, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    Thank you Chris and Erika. Very succinct.

  25. Nathan
    January 17, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    Some people would argue that the Dept of health have their own motives for encouraging vaccine uptake

    Indeed. Their motives are to improve the health of Americans. Part of this involves preventing disease.

    Oh, maybe you were referring to global depopulation or something. You’re right; let’s stick to the basics.

    I would not consider this to be a “credible sources of information”

    Of course not. They support vaccination. Therefore to you, they are not a credible source of information.

    why don’t you actually look at scientific studies that were peer reviewed, published and NOT paid for by a pharma company or anyone connected to a gov’t body?

    I have. I’ve looked at hundreds of studies from all sorts of sources, many not connected to a government body. I’ve also looked at independent reviews of the literature. It overwhelmingly supports vaccines as a safe and effective measure to prevent disease and save lives.

    Of course, it’s only in Antivaxxerland that having “anyone connected to a gov’t body” means that the research actually means the opposite.

  26. Nathan
    January 17, 2012 at 10:36 pm

    You need to consider that data can be manipulated in such a way as to give a false impression.

    So do you. The thing is that there is so much more data that supports vaccines, that to claim it is all manipulated ventures into wacky conspiracy territory.

  27. pro mom
    January 17, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    well i dont like the animal cells in vaccines and oh aborted fetal tissue really does not sit well with me either. i was not vaccinated until i was 18 and travelled over seas. i also had whooping cough and i lived.

  28. Eileen
    January 17, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    Would you please cite the scientific study which supports the statement that “Vaccines are safe and effective”. Along with who conducted it and their financial backers.

  29. pro mom
    January 17, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    its all about money because we live in a greedy world-of course big pharmaceutical companies want your money! duh!

  30. Snoozie
    January 17, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    pro mom :
    its all about money because we live in a greedy world-of course big pharmaceutical companies want your money! duh!

    If making money makes a source suspect, then you must also be against Mercola, Tenpenny, Sears, Wakefield, and their like as well.

  31. Chris
    January 17, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    So can you tell me if it is really cheaper to treat measles, Hib, pertussis and tetanus in a hospital than prevent them with vaccines? Please provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show preventing diseases is much more expensive than treating them.

    And you living after having whooping cough will not bring back the ten babies in California who died from pertussis. I think you need to provide a bit more evidence than your own experience.

  32. Chris
    January 17, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Actually, you should really tell us what evidence you have that vaccines carry more risk than the diseases. What evidence do you have that DTaP and Tdap are more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (you know, the disease that killed several babies last year), or that MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. The following are examples of what kind of data is acceptable. If you notice the first one takes information from many different countries, be sure to pay attention to what happened in Japan and the UK.

    (you can access most of the papers through PubMed)

    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

    Benefits, Risks and Costs of Immunization for Measles, Mumps and Rubella

    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5. (this one tells how much the hospitalizations cost)

    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.
    Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.
    (shows that there are “chronic” conditions after diseases)

    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12. (the kids need lots of expensive supports near the end of their short lives, pictures here)

    Lack of association between acellular pertussis vaccine and seizures in early childhood.
    Pediatrics. 2010 Aug;126(2):263-9. Epub 2010 Jul 19.

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.
    Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112.

    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.
    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.

  33. Eileen
    January 17, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    So by your answer I am to believe that you cannot support the final statements of the article? I am not the one writing the article. I have not stated a side, I have simply asked for information that I believed you to have upon stating “Vaccines are safe and effective. Scientific study has shown this to be true, beyond a shadow of a doubt.”
    The information I ask can only add to your credibility.

  34. mary
    January 18, 2012 at 12:00 am

    why don’t you provide some credible links to those who don’t know where to turn?

  35. mary
    January 18, 2012 at 12:02 am

    and had the babies in Ca been diagnosed in a timely manner and treated accordingly, they might have survived.

  36. mary
    January 18, 2012 at 12:05 am

    your friend that is in a place where children are dying from measles certainly can’t be here in the USA….and i’ve been across the country and back many times and met many a parent who’s child had a severe reaction to vaccines…

  37. Kate
    January 18, 2012 at 12:26 am

    Mary – I would suggest this page for a start:

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/home.html

    It includes answers to top vaccine questions and also looks at each vaccine individually, including the diseases each prevents. What other information would you like? Would you like to see studies?

  38. Kate
    January 18, 2012 at 12:34 am

    mary :and had the babies in Ca been diagnosed in a timely manner and treated accordingly, they might have survived.

    Mary, what leads you to believe the babies weren’t diagnosed in a timely matter and treated accordingly?

  39. January 18, 2012 at 12:38 am

    Then you will be happy to tell us why NONE of the studies he listed qualifies?

  40. January 18, 2012 at 12:39 am

    And had the herd immunity high enough against pertussis they would not have died.

    BTW, early diagnosis and treatment is NOT a guarantee of survival for infants with pertussis. Not getting the disease in the first place IS.

  41. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 1:08 am

    and had the babies in Ca been diagnosed in a timely manner and treated accordingly, they might have survived.

    How so? What earlier treatment would have saved their lives? Be specific.

  42. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 1:31 am

    Me:

    Actually, you should really tell us what evidence you have that vaccines carry more risk than the diseases.

    Eileen, I provided you several studies, some were reviews of those done in several countries. In the few hours between me posting the list and your reply makes me doubt you actually read them. Perhaps you should list the agencies that funded the studies, since most of them are available to read online for free. Can you do that for me?

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/03/dr-bob-sears-alternate-reality-or.html

    So it is now up to you to provide actual evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. I may have a higher standard of evidence because I have a kid who had seizures while suffering from a now vaccine preventable disease… which may or may not be why he has a permanent neurological injury.

    Oh, I remember where I have seen your “question” before. It was posted by someone who was selling his book. I invite you to read this article. Then come back and tell me which of the articles I posted were funded by pharmaceutical companies.

    Especially those funded by the California Department of Health Services, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, Kaiser Permanente Insurance, the CDC, the World Health Organization, and many university medical programs. Make sure you have the connections solidly made with real evidence.

    I am personally interested how an insurance company that seeks to save money is paid by pharmaceutical companies. Because as far as my experience goes, these are the folks with the tightest wallets. Have you ever dealt with an insurance company? I know my last conversation with the Blue Cross/Blue Shield nurse when my kid was discharged from the hospital was amusing, since she did not know his full
    history (the change in her voice in the conversation went from authoritative to defeated).

  43. Kelly
    January 18, 2012 at 1:31 am
  44. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 1:43 am

    Based on my research,

    What research? You believed that an obviously faked line on a graph was real because it conformed to your unscientific beliefs:

    http://www.mycolleaguesareidiots.com/archive/2011/02/13/Erin-Alber-and-VINE-Intellectually-Bankrupt.aspx

    Mr. Alber, you are the laughing stock not only of New Zealand, but also of Australia… and to pile it on: the UK, Canada and the USA! Well, most of the English speaking part of this planet. Using the search words “erwin alber idiot stupid wrong 2011″ in Google still produces almost two million hits! Each time I added an adjective the number of hits barely changed.

  45. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 1:53 am

    There is in fact no evidence that vaccines have ever prevented anything, apart from health, sanity and plain common sense.

    You are repeating yourself. Ah, I see you are quoting Mr. Natural Hygiene. Very interesting. Perhaps you and the ghost of Dr. Herbert Shelton would answer this very simple question:

    What caused the incidence of measles (also known as “morbidity”) in the USA in 1970 to be only 10% of what it was in 1960? Do not use “mortality”, do not use any other country (England and Wales are not part of the USA, and neither is Japan), and do not use any other decade. Please only cite the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that support your explanation. Do not use random websites nor news articles. Explain your reasoning very clearly.

    The census data and rates are provided below (warning: it is a large pdf file):
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  46. Katrina Fox
    January 18, 2012 at 2:02 am

    So, if vaccinations never prevented anything, why is it that I’m still alive after being around people while little having those types of diseases? I had more than the average kid cause I moved around constantly and each new school made me take more vaccinations than most. But you are saying that, since I was vaccinated, that I should have died when others had the diseases I was vaccinated for. That makes no sense, Alber. And my son should have died because he was around someone with pertussis at one point when he was vaccinated for it.

  47. January 18, 2012 at 5:07 am

    Chris – morbidity statistics are inaccurate to the point of meaninglessness. For one thing, doctors are not very good at reporting morbidity figures, and for another, many parents don’t bother to take their child to the doctor if it has measles or some other childhood illness. I certainly wouldn’t, because I would be happy for my child to get measles.

    As far as am concerned, childhood illnesses are generally beneficial for healthy children in that they help them to develop a strong and healthy immune system and in most cases result in life-long immunity.

    In my experience, the less vaccines a child has had, the healthier a child is generally likely to be. Mothers who gave birth at home, who breastfed their children and kept them vaccine-free have told me that their children have never seen a doctor in their life, even by the time their children are 4 or 5 years old.

    Compare this with vaccinated children whose parents have consented to their children being injected in accordance with the national vaccine child poisoning schedule. Many of these chidren are constantly at the doctor’s for a prescription for one thing or another, such as vaccine-induced asthma, allergies, eczema and ear infections, not to speak of vaccine-related neurological disorders such as ADHD and autism, or diabetes and other health problems.

    No wonder the medical authorities never conduct ant studies to compare the health of vaccinated with that of vaccine-free children, because it would endanger their money-making and disease-promoting racket. .

  48. January 18, 2012 at 5:10 am

    Oops – should have been ‘any studies’…

  49. January 18, 2012 at 6:31 am

    You invite readers to visit the VINE Page on Facebook? Please explain to me why I was banned from VINE South Africa and all my comments deleted when I didn’t use abusive language.

  50. Ros
    January 18, 2012 at 6:44 am

    Unfortunately many young babies who contract whooping cough die a miserable death. That alone is enough for me to vaccinate.

  51. Ros
    January 18, 2012 at 6:45 am

    Hear, hear!

  52. Ros
    January 18, 2012 at 6:47 am

    Even babies who survive whooping cough suffer greatly – including broken ribs. Prevention is better than a cure. Vaccination saves lives!

  53. Kate
    January 18, 2012 at 9:03 am

    Well, your response is purely anecdotal. Not to mention, mothers who birth at home and keep their children vaccine free are less likely to take them to the doctor in the first place, not that their children have less illness. The only difference between vaccinated children and unvaccinated children is that vaccinated children are less likely to get vaccine preventable diseases.

  54. pa nurse
    January 18, 2012 at 10:53 am

    I am a nurse of 30 years in Pa. I am old enough to have only had the basic immunizations although my son did have them all as well as my grandchildren. I would add this to the argument, the vaccines for MMR and Chicken Pox were created in order to prevent children of low income from dying. I remember being very angry that our society rather than improve conditions for our poor ie; better health care, better nutritional education, we vaccinated. Yes, even children from upper class died from some of these diseases but very few and very rare. To my limited knowledge “measles” are the nastier of these illnesses. Children are better off to actually get these diseases, a natural immunization is better, there is no doubt of it. This does not include tetanus and diphtheria, whooping cough, or any of the anti cancer serums now available. I would however give fair warning, in regards to whether or not these immunizations lead to Autism, do not depend so much on the studies, they were conducted by the very companies who supply these serums. I don’t believe any one immunization is capable of creating such a horrific result, but can being “overloaded” with immunizations do it, good question?

  55. Chris C
    January 18, 2012 at 10:54 am

    This is to both of the pharmaceutical lackeys Chris and Karen. I have been around people that have had highly contagious diseases that they do have vaccines for and yet I have not had the vaccine and I show an high immunization to them. I did have the chicken pox vaccine that they pushed yet I still developed it not once, not twice, but 4 separate times. I believe that the vaccines they push are a load of crap. You have doctors out there who will honestly tell you that vaccines do not do what the pharmaceutical companies lead you to believe. And as for your studies, if you want to believe that the drug companies are funding the research I have a plot of land on the moon I can sell you for cheap.
    I bet you only went to one site to get your information and did not do any research into what exactly they are pushing into your body through that needle. I shuddder to think what is in that concoction they call a vaccine. My children have not be vaccinated yet they hardly get sik other then the occasional common cold (which along with the flu there are several million varieties of the strain that causes it).

    Once you dig and get past all of this crap you are feeding yourself you may get to the truth.

  56. Candice Chambrrlain
    January 18, 2012 at 11:33 am

    As a ER nurse, I witnessed and cared infants who suffered seizures and swelling of the brain after getting multiple vaccines. Not every infant/child can tolerate the amount of vaccines being given. Unfortunately this is not discovered until the damage is done. Nurses have an advantage of seeing really happens in medicine. Heaven forbid someone give their opinion from the other side. Educate yourself and make your own decision!

  57. January 18, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    LOL. Always resort to this type of bull when Erwin speaks the truth. This is getting old but shows what a threat Erwin is to those pushing vaccines on little children. Erwin allows the side of those who buy the vaccine fraud called science to have their say & if he bans anyone it’s for good reason. I have seen this for myself so you fool no one. Those of you who are duped & those who work to dupe them have come to the end of this cover up as the masses are waking daily. Thank the good that God is for that.

  58. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Ah, it is the boring old trope known as the Pharma Shill Gambit. Perhaps next time you try something more original like actual evidence and data.

    And seriously, how exactly is treating a disease in a hospital cheaper than preventing it in the first places?

    Wait, you had the chicken pox vaccine? Are you only about twenty years old? In 1994 all of my kids came down with chicken pox, it was a year before the vaccine was available. Even my now 17 year daughter got it, even though she was a fully breastfed baby.

  59. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    My oldest ended up in the ER due to seizures while suffering from a disease (one that there is now a vaccine for). You sound like you worked in an area with such high vaccine reactions compared to other causes of seizures. It must have raised some eyebrows, and someone must have noticed and wrote it up for the medical literature, something where anecdotes turn into case studies. Can you point out the study of the high numbers of vaccine seizures taking place in one hospital? Thank you.

  60. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    . We have foolishly traded childhood disease that most every child recovered from & true immunity was gained unless there were underlying conditions.

    Key word in Ms. McClennand’s comment “most.” Not “all” and not “everyone.”

    Tell us Ms. McClennand, how many kids injured by an actual disease would make you want to take action against that disease? Do you want to go back to the 1950s when over five hundred kids per year died from measles, and many more were permanently disabled? Do you think it was okay that so many infants died from pertussis last year? Do you really want to go back to the days when it was common for children to die from diphtheria (which happened in Russia and the Ukraine less than twenty years ago: Successful Control of Epidemic Diphtheria in the States of the Former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics: Lessons Learned)

    (also some diseases do not create “true immunity”, especially the bacterial ones like tetanus and pertussis, and varicella never really goes away, it comes back as shingles)

    Oh, and VAERS again! Tell us what you need to read and understand before you click the button before entering the VAERS database. What does the statement say?

    With also 1 in 3 being diagnosed with cancer before age 65. 1 in 2 when it comes to men as they are overly vaccinated in the military.

    Sigh. Again, citation needed.

  61. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Ms. McClelland, exactly how is that a cite. And it shows an issue with policy, not the vaccine.

    (oh, and apologies for not spelling your name correctly earlier)

  62. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Ms. McClelland, that is an unscientific self selected survey and has no basis in reality. It was mocked here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/an_anti-vaccine-administered_survey_back.php

  63. Leslie
    January 18, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    And why would you be vaccinated for chicken pox and not one of these other highly contagious diseases you reference???

  64. January 18, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Chris. You have to take all the sites, CITES & sources & put them together to see the real picture. .As if you didn’t know!

  65. pa nurse
    January 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    I’m seeing people get pretty snarky here. Keep in mind “Tylenol” if not taken properly can kill you. Educate yourself, do not put anything into your body or that of your children’s you haven’t researched thoroughly. Make informed decisions and then be content you did your best. My son contracted chicken pox 6 months prior to the immunization. He was 21. As a nurse, my colleagues questioned why I hadn’t had him exposed earlier? I asked “Is there a chicken pox farm somewhere I could have taken him to?” Point is, as ill as he became he was in good health and he survived. As will your children if not immunized. To Chris C, are you sure you are not getting shingles? As in many issues surrounding us today, it is ultimately your decision regarding the health and care of your children. Your decision should begin with “am I able to provide my children with good, healthy, well rounded meals? Do my children get enough exercise and sunshine? If no, you may want to consider immunizations. Parents of immunized children have been heard to complain un-immunized children are a threat to the health of their children. This is for obvious reasons untrue. Make an informed decision, do not discount anyone’s opinion, as they may actually have a few good points, if you cannot agree on the whole. Getting so freaked out about this is unproductive at best, and adds little to the discussion. It is still a choice parents can make, and be thankful we still can. When that is threatened, then we have a cause to get excited?

  66. ADuh
    January 18, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    There isn’t “aborted fetal tissue.” Vaccines are cultured in a medium derived from a fetus (I think its actually 2) that was donated to science a long long time ago. Move along.

  67. Lawrence
    January 18, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Wow – once again no answer to the “prevention vs. treatment” cost question. Given that vaccines cost as little as pennies per dose vs. potentially thousands, if not tens-of-thousands of dollars in both doctor & hospital bills for the actual diseases themselves, how can this possibly be an argument that the anti-vaccination crowd can use?

    Of course, they are looney in general, so I guess that explains it.

    I will take the advice of my pediatrician over these loonies any day of the week.

  68. lilady
    January 18, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    I’m a recently retired public health nurse who was involved in case surveillance of vaccine-preventable diseases and as a clinician/nurse working in a large County public health department. I saw the dramatic decrease in terms of morbidity and mortality as each of the newer vaccines were licensed and added to the “Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule”. I also interfaced with the staff at the 8 “community” hospitals and the 5 “teaching hospitals” within the County catchment area and we never received reports of serious longstanding effects of any individual or combined vaccines. There were a few intermittent reports of benign infant febrile seizures reported, temporally associated with recent immunizations.

    I’m also old enough to have seen actual polio cases in my childhood…including the death of one of my childhood chums. My cousin was left with life-long neurological deficits due to measles encephalopathy. I think these losses are among the reasons why I chose public health nursing for my career.

    Marsha McClelland: Why don’t you read the studies that “Chris” referenced? You didn’t read any of these same studies that were provided to you, when you went “trolling” on a science-based medicine blog, recently.

    Thanks Canadian nurse, for your excellent analysis of the video. It is very appreciated by this nurse.

  69. January 18, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Thank you to Chris for putting forth his efforts here. People who understand how important it is for studies to be rigorous and scientific should not be affected by the arguments that anti-vaccine proponents have posted on here. There is a startlingly small amount of citations posted by these folks. Fortunately, the vast majority of people in our country accept the common wisdom and good science behind vaccinations and are not represented on this page. Most people are able to see that anecdotal instances from their personal life do not stand up against objectivity, even if that objectivity is perpetuated by big scary “government” organizations and “eggheads” in a lab.

    Chris–those stats you posted above about measles give me a warm fuzzy feeling about living in this country. It’s pretty nice here.

    And this article regarding the pertussis outbreak in California last year–http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/index.html–shows the lack of newborn resistance to pertussis pretty clearly. I do not count this as a citation, but it is a nice piece of anecdotal evidence. I suppose anti-vax people would say that they’ll keep their kids away from sick people and take other measures, but I think the problem is that you cannot know whether people are sick in every case. (In fact, it’s pretty clear you WON’T know if these people are sick with pertussis in MANY cases.) I just don’t see how you can protect against these diseases in a better way than vaccinations.

    By the way, I’m an RN and being a “Patriot Nurse” does not qualify anybody to make “scientific” claims. I know many nurses that do not understand proper use of scientific method. For that matter, being a “doctor” doesn’t do it either. Every single person who wants to make these decisions needs to learn how to read a study and know what it means to be “valid”. Like it’s been said, “In God We Trust, all others pay cash.” In this case, “In prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials We Trust, all others hit the road”.

    Fer or agin vaccines? I’m fer, y’all.

  70. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Who is held accountable when a child dies from a vaccine preventable disease? The chances of which, BTW, is many orders of magnitude higher than from a vaccine.

  71. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    It’s probably not here in the USA, because the vaccine has virtually eliminated measles, and deaths along with it.

    Severe reactions are so rare, it is doubtful that you have actually met that all that many by chance. However, you have probably met parents who believe their child had a bad reaction to vaccines. Especially if you are purposefully looking for them.

  72. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    i also had whooping cough and i lived.

    And this somehow counters the reality of the children who got it and didn’t?

  73. January 18, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    There are many for you to read if you are REALLY interested …
    So – why no links or citations to support this claim?

  74. January 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Look at what are toxic amounts of ingredients mentioned
    What ‘toxic’ amounts? You do know that dose is important, don’t you? For example (& as Canadian Nurse noted), there’s far more Al in breast milk than in the entire vaccine schedule.

  75. lilady
    January 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Marsha…Your sites, CITES & sources (that you have put together) are not reputable. Those are the same (notorious anti-vax) sites, CITES & sources that you presented on your silly Face Book page… and that you mentioned on the science-based medicine blog, where you recently trolled.

    Chris has done an admirable job of debunking your inane postings, with links to reputable studies, published in first tier, peer reviewed medical journals. So, just pick one of those links that Chris provided…to analyze and provide commentary on. I double-dog dare you to put up or shut up, Marsha.

  76. January 18, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    “Osteoporosis, Fibromyalgia (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome), Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Parkinson’s, ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis) & Autism Spectrum Disorder, all manifestations of the same vaccine derived heavy metal-virus-mycoplasma-excipie​nt “sludge” breaching the body’s delicate “electrical grid” nerve center (blood barrier, Myelin sheath & meninges); literally “short-circuiting” the operation of the nervous system”

    citation please! (I mark my students down for plagiarism.)

  77. January 18, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Erwin allows the side of those who buy the vaccine fraud called science to have their say & if he bans anyone it’s for good reason

    “good reason” would appear to include “they disagree with what I’m saying”.

  78. January 18, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Vaccination is not immunization. Vaccination is a form of delusional insanity the brainwashed population unfortunately subscribes to. The word vaccination is derived from the Latin word for cow ‘vaca’, because Edward Jenner who started this nonsense in 1796 used the lymph from a cowpox blister on the hand of a dairymaid to inoculate people against smallpox. Initially this nonsense was opposed by the medical profession, but when the commercial potential of this superstition was realised it came to support it, although many people including many medical doctors opposed this fraud. To vaccinate literally means to cowify, because this barbaric practice introduced bovine DNA into the human organism, with dire consequences. This insane practice also promoted a herd mentality by having people believe that this evil intervention could prevent smallpox. It didn’t, but instead promoted mental and physical degeneration, just as modern vaccines continue to do today.

  79. January 18, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Citation, please, kindly. Thanks.

  80. Lawrence
    January 18, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    After being banned from AoA for merely attempting to point people to the information hosted on Todd W’s website, it is plainly obvious that anti-vaccinators fear the publication of any information that refutes their stated beliefs.

    There are decades of research and hundreds of studies showing the success and safety of vaccines – yet these people still cling to unsubstantiated rumors and innuendo….

  81. Shawn Siegel
    January 18, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    The reactions recorded in VAERS are reported because of temporal relationship to the suspected vaccines – a correlation. The mantra, correlation isn’t causation, referenced in at least one previous comment, is a generalization, and literally incorrect when used vis-a-vis adverse vaccine reports. Sure, some of the reported reactions would ultimately be determined unrelated to the vaccine, but a correlation is a relationship not expected to exist on the basis of chance alone – statistically speaking, not expected to be coincidence. If you’re going to generalize, you must say that, in the case of reported adverse vaccine reactions, correlation implies causation.

    Not only is it likely that the great majority of reported adverse reactions are, indeed, caused by the vaccines, but said reactions are egregiously underreported – we literally have no idea how many deaths, for instance, have resulted from vaccination; there are more than 3,000 reported, but the real number is much higher. The fundamental problem is, we don’t know – we don’t know the true risk from vaccines. The vaccine industry has no business declaring their product safe, since safety is determined by comparing benefits to risks, and the risks are unknown.

  82. Kelly
    January 18, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    See you are trotting out the same spiel that has been shown to be wrong repeatedly, Shawn.

    In the case of VAERS, the correlation is temporal, in that the event happened after vaccination, not the dictionary definition based on coincidence that you like to use. You cannot say that the vaccine caused this event to happen without further investigation. For this reason, reports to VAERS are monitored and further investigated to determine if the temporal correlation is indeed related by the proceeding event causing the subsequent event or if they are just two events happening one before the other.

    When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

    So if you are going to generalize, you must say that that vaccination proceeded the adverse event but you cannot determine if this relationship is causal, which is in fact what the disclaimer to VAERS says.

    As for your claim that adverse reactions are underreported – citation needed.
    As for your claim that more than 3,000 deaths have resulted from vaccination – citation needed.

  83. January 18, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    “Videos like this seem to be the best the anti vax side has to offer, and they just don’t pass even a minimal test for critical thinking.”

    That is a great evaluation. They also seem to leave out the complications even healthy people can get if they get a vaccine-preventable disease, such as the 8 deaths, 26 cases of encephalitis, and 1,040 cases of pneumonia from the measles outbreaks in Europe.

    There have also been several reported cases of measles and rubella in pregnant women in Europe the last few years, which could become an increasing larger problem in the US too as unvax’ed kids get older.

  84. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    You seem like a well-spoken individual, Shawn. I imagine if you stopped and critically analyzed your own argument you would see where it falls apart.

    We are talking about temporal correlations of individual events here. Temporal correlations do not have the definition you cite – any two things that happen in temporal proximity to each other have some degree of a temporal correlation. I can eat a hoagie and an earthquake can occur in the ocean a few minutes later, and those would have a temporal correlation to each other (as you said, a “temporal relationship – a correlation”). However, you would be foolish to say that my sandwich consumption and the earthquake “is a relationship not expected to exist on the basis of chance alone – statistically speaking, not expected to be coincidence.”

    Such is it with VAERS reports. We would indeed expect by chance alone that there will be events following vaccines. To have no “temporal relationship” between any bad event and any vaccine would imply that the vaccines prevent all bad things! Therefore it is not true that “is it likely that the great majority of reported adverse reactions are, indeed, caused by the vaccines.”

    We do, in fact have a good idea of the true risk of vaccines, because we use not just VAERS reports, but also studies, prospective and retrospective to evaluate safety. And the track record of vaccines is phenomenal. We don’t have to rely on “the vaccine industry” to declare vaccines safe, as countless government and independent institutions have confirmed them to be so.

  85. lilady
    January 18, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Sarah A’Court: Why didn’t you “attribute” your quote to its author, Joel Lord?

    Joel Lord composed a long screed, that included Sarah’s copypasta, on his own website VaccineResistanceMovement.org Mr. Lord is the master of conspiracy of all the powers in the world who are on “Big Pharma’s Payroll” (August 31, 2011)

    Joel Lord then repeated his screed on the “New Illuminati” blog on November 23, 2011.

    I think if I got all my “science” information from this conspiracist and these two “conspiracy” websites, I would be reluctant to accredit the writer and reluctant to provide citations.

  86. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    pa nurse:

    I would add this to the argument, the vaccines for MMR and Chicken Pox were created in order to prevent children of low income from dying.

    I think you need to provide a citation for this. Especially since you admitted that children who were not low income suffered and died (like Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter).

    Children are better off to actually get these diseases, a natural immunization is better, there is no doubt of it.

    I believe you really need to provide a citation. Measles does not only kill about one in a thousand who get it, but also causes deafness, blindness and permanent neurological damage. Mumps used to be one of the main causes of post-lingual deafness, polio disabled many people for life (some who now have post-polio syndrome), rubella caused women to lose their babies or give birth to disabled children, meningitis from H. influenza make a toddler permanently disabled or dead.

    Seriously think about what you are saying. Some reading for you:
    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    and
    Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998

    Do you think it is better to actually get chicken pox and run the risk of shingles later in life? Plus, chicken pox involves children having dozens to hundreds of open itchy sores all over their body. My daughter was only a baby and suffered miserably, she could not sleep more than an hour at most at a time. And my older son was so sick he was wetting his bed. Why do you condone having children suffer like that for two weeks? (and trust me, it was no picnic dealing day and night with very sick kids for a month… lovely thing about chicken pox, it incubates for two weeks after exposure,).

    I don’t believe any one immunization is capable of creating such a horrific result, but can being “overloaded” with immunizations do it, good question?

    Do you actually believe that getting several diseases does not overload the system, and that it is good for children? Personally, I think that is cruel. Why should children get sick and suffer, with some being hospitalized, when that can be easily prevented? Not to mention the costs associated with treating sick children.

  87. pa nurse
    January 18, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Chris, I have been a nurse and in this life long enough to not give a rats — for any of your snarky comments. My message here? LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF, MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY. Chill out, and for the record I AM your “cite”. I grew up during this time, the issues regarding immunizations were presented due to the lack of health and nutritional education to our poorer communities. YOU look it up, I’ve got a life. I was not immunized for anything other than TD/Polio and have a lovely injection site from a small pox vaccination. I did get the measles, mumps and chicken pox, along with every other kid in the neighborhood. NO ONE DIED. We had one kid who did develop meningitis, it was scary as hell for us, can’t imagine what his parents went through. Oh and by the way, my parents didn’t pay a dime for any of these immunizations, we got them through school, paid for by the state and federal government. Go back to your precious list of how many people died or were seriously injured by childhood illnesses, then check your demographics, I imagine you will be slightly surprised. The self righteous crap just doesn’t fly, so get off your magic carpet. I’ve watched children die of all kinds of illnesses they should never have gotten in the first place. I’ve watched adults and children suffer some of the most horrific illnesses, some due to an inability to process medications designed to cure. So don’t get on your high horse to ANY nurse about how she or he deals with the horrors side of our profession. I don’t know how long you have been in this profession, but from what I am reading, you’ve learned a great deal in your ability to “cite”, I learned from holding the dying persons hand. So again, I’m “citing” for your appreciation, NEVER put any substance into your body, you have not researched first…..

  88. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    Chill out, and for the record I AM your “cite”.

    Wow, pa nurse, you sounded just like Judge Dredd just then.

    I did get the measles, mumps and chicken pox, along with every other kid in the neighborhood. NO ONE DIED

    So, what do these numbers under the heading of “deaths” mean, then?

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

    Go back to your precious list of how many people died or were seriously injured by childhood illnesses, then check your demographics, I imagine you will be slightly surprised.

    I am. I’m surprised at how coldly you can dismiss them.

    So don’t get on your high horse to ANY nurse about how she or he deals with the horrors side of our profession. I don’t know how long you have been in this profession, but from what I am reading, you’ve learned a great deal in your ability to “cite”, I learned from holding the dying persons hand

    So have I, more than once, while the child died of a vaccine-preventable disease. So we match. But you’re the one calling yourself a superior citation over peer reviewed literature. Out of the horse-riders here, you’re the only one that is acting high.

  89. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 10:42 pm

    As in many issues surrounding us today, it is ultimately your decision regarding the health and care of your children. Your decision should begin with “am I able to provide my children with good, healthy, well rounded meals? Do my children get enough exercise and sunshine? If no, you may want to consider immunizations.

    You should be ashamed of this insult to families who lost their children to vaccine preventable diseases. Their children are not malnourished couch potatoes. They are just like yours, only yours have been luckier.

  90. Nathan
    January 18, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    That is, they were like yours.

  91. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    pa nurse:

    LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF, MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY. Chill out, and for the record I AM your “cite”.

    Actually, I want you to educate me with real science not your anecdotes. That is why I am asking you questions about your claims.

    YOU look it up, I’ve got a life.

    You made a bold claim, therefore it is up to you to support that claim with real data. I have already looked things up, I provided you two full papers to read.

    I did get the measles, mumps and chicken pox, along with every other kid in the neighborhood. NO ONE DIED.

    Did you seriously know everyone in your neighborhood? There is a reason why anecdotes are not useful. I suggest in the future you actually have the supporting data available for any more claims you make.

  92. Chris
    January 18, 2012 at 11:02 pm

    pa nurse:

    I learned from holding the dying persons hand

    I am a parent of a child who has several medical issues, one of which was caused by seizures while he had a now vaccine preventable diseases. I am a parent who had to protect that child from pertussis while our county had a pertussis epidemic (his seizure history prevented him from getting the DTP). I am a parent who has nursed three kids through chicken pox, one who was still an infant. I am a parent who has ridden in the ambulance with one particular child many times. I am a parent who writes the checks to cover the medical expenses not covered by our very good health insurance.

    I am just a parent who has dealt with many doctors, nurses, medical technicians, specialists, therapists and insurance companies. I am so glad I never met a nurse like you.

  93. pa nurse
    January 19, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Sorry Chris, you are apparently young enough to still believe in your super powers. I don’t mean that to be critical, I thought I had them too at one time. People die Chris, of all ages, and most often as a nurse the only thing you have left to do is help them through it. To think I am “cold” about it? No, Chris never cold, just get really angry about it sometimes, but have learned there is little humans can do to hold back death. I have already retired from this wonderful profession, good luck to you.

  94. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 9:06 am

    This has to be a Poe.

  95. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Amy, you might know (and Marsh certainly knows) that if a vaccine causes damage, then there is a system whereby claims can be settled reasonably easily through the NCVI court, on a “no fault” basis to make claims easier to succeed and avert the need for expensive litigation that would cost plaintiffs huge amounts of money, but that failing this there is still the option available to sue the manufacturer.

  96. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Sarah, if I had a dollar for every time this myth you promulgate has been comprehensively refuted (as neatly done by Heather) yet ignored, I would be a very rich man.

  97. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Nathan :Severe reactions are so rare, it is doubtful that you have actually met that all that many by chance. However, you have probably met parents who believe their child had a bad reaction to vaccines. Especially if you are purposefully looking for them.

    Amen to that.
    I have met many people who say similar things, and even supposing their circle of acquaintances runs to around 1000 kids (pretty unfeasible), you’d expect only one to have had a severe or lifethreatening vaccine reaction on average.

  98. missmayinga
    January 19, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    I would add this to the argument, the vaccines for MMR and Chicken Pox were created in order to prevent children of low income from dying. I remember being very angry that our society rather than improve conditions for our poor ie; better health care, better nutritional education, we vaccinated.
    What makes you think that the two are mutually exclusive? Using vaccination to reduce the burden from childhood disease certainly isn’t all that needs to be done to help the poor, but it is a good step. From a purely economic standpoint, vaccination benefits the poor by allowing parents (particularly mothers) to spend less time caring for sick children and more time at work; allowing children to spend more time in school, increasing their chances of succeeding; reducing the amount of money that must be spent on health care; and decreasing the chances of children becoming disabled in a way that renders them unable to work. Now, obviously, the economic benefits are of secondary concern compared with the pure health benefits. But my point is, vaccination has long-reaching effects for impoverished families and their communities. And in some areas of the world, where the infrastructure to provide better health care or nutrition simply don’t exist, those benefits can be extremely important.

    Yes, even children from upper class died from some of these diseases but very few and very rare.
    The truth is, there isn’t much that medicine can do for some of the worst complications of these diseases. Even if you can afford the best medical care, there isn’t really any way to keep your child’s measles from reaching their brain, or to help them once it has. All anyone can do is wait, and hope that they’re able to recover.

    Really, the children who suffer most from chicken pox et al. aren’t necessarily the rich or the poor. They’re the immunocompromised – children who are HIV+, children with leukemia, children who are on immunosuppressants after organ transplants. For these children, the risk of complications is greatly increased – so what’s ‘just chicken pox’ for a healthy kid could be life-threatening to them. And because their immune systems are too suppressed, they can’t be vaccinated – so they depend on us, the ones who can be vaccinated, to become immune and protect them from infection. If nothing else, that’s reason enough to be vaccinated against the “mild” diseases – to protect those who can’t be.

    Children are better off to actually get these diseases, a natural immunization is better, there is no doubt of it.
    A natural infection will give you better, longer-lasting immunity, it’s true. But the likelihood of complications from a natural infection is also much higher than from a vaccine. It’s a trade-off – vaccination might not be as effective as natural infection in giving you immunity from the disease, but it’s much safer.

    I don’t believe any one immunization is capable of creating such a horrific result, but can being “overloaded” with immunizations do it, good question?
    Not really. Even if you ignore the fact that there’s no plausible mechanism for an “overload” to create autism, the challenges that the immune system faces from everyday life are vastly greater than those it faces from vaccination. Nothing in the environment is sterile – literally everything a baby comes in contact with is covered in billions upon billions of germs, all of which the immune system manages to deal with quite handily.

    Sorry for rambling. You brought up a few points that related to my interests (global health, poverty & disease), and I couldn’t resist shooting my mouth off.

  99. Chris
    January 19, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    pa nurse:

    Sorry Chris, you are apparently young enough to still believe in your super powers.

    What are you going on about? I know my limitations, I suggest you take a good hard look at yours. This includes your closed mindedness when comparing your experience with actual evidence.

    Have you read the two papers I listed? What do they say?

    No, Chris never cold, just get really angry about it sometimes, but have learned there is little humans can do to hold back death.

    There are risks in many choices, and one should be educated with with real information. I asked you for evidence of you claims, and you just made excuses.

    So if there is “little humans can do to hold back death” then why has the average American lifespan increased by 50% in the last century (50 years to almost 80)? Why do fewer children die before age five than they did a century ago?

    I suggest the next time you post that you tell us exactly what evidence shows that the present American MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. I am sure you are old enough to remember the rubella epidemic of the early 1960s, so do tell us how not preventing it is good thing.

  100. pa nurse
    January 19, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Great response, and no you didn’t shoot your mouth off at all, reasonable people would find your comments enlightening, as I have. Thanks for at least getting my point. I do agree, immunization does support children with the greater risk. A point if you notice is not discussed here. You also expressed in a much better way, we can die if we do or do not get immunized, the risk if immunized is much lower I agree, but it can still happen. Most of the comments here are as if we can actually “hold off” death of children by immunizing them, this is just not true, as painful as that is. I also agree that children are bombarded by germs, disease, bacteria the moment they enter this world. The only way to build the “natural” immunization is to allow it. If you go back and read some of these comments you will be able to pick out the parents who do not allow it. These are the ones who put their children on antibiotics the minute they sneeze and then wonder why they are sick all the time. My main point here; as a parent to be educated, do the research and talk to the Dr., make an informed decision, to include the affect on other children not blessed with the same “good” health as your own. As a former family health nurse, my greatest concern with new parents is they want to protect their children from everything possible, unfortunately in the long run (at least in regards to health care) they end up doing more harm than good. I have worked with little ones who cannot get any type of immunization due to auto immune diseases, asthma etc., just a common cold can knock them off their little feet. I am sure if everyone could see the effect on these little ones, this argument would become moot?

  101. Differentiate
    January 19, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    So you won’t believe some studies because they may have been biased due to “Pharma” funding even though there is a plethora of studies not funded by “Pharma” that show the same evidence, and yet you’ll take the word of one doctor who makes his money by testifying that vaccines cause injury???

    I’m sorry to hear about your kids. But I’m afraid you’ve let that affect your critical thinking abilities relative to this subject. I hope some day you find peace, and that we’ll discover what truly caused injury to your kids.

    You have to be careful when researching and evaluating the evidence. Truly understanding what is being written is subtle and often takes more background knowledge than you may first appreciate. Good luck in your search for the truth.

  102. Petahertz
    January 19, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Well I’ve had all my vaccines plus boosters and am fine. Never get the flu or colds either.

    If you’re thinking, “that doesn’t prove anything”, you are right and should rethink why you wrote “I also had whooping cough and i lived”.

  103. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Indeed, to see several cases of vaccine induced encephalopathy in a single center is highly unusual, and would certainly be written up as a case series in a journal or notigffied to the appropriate authorities and public health epidemiologists. No doubt there would be followup investigation to establish why there was such an outbreak of such vaccine complications in such an isolated area and examination of the vaccine responsible. [Wakefield’s might give tips on how case series of complications after vaccination get published]

    Candice, as Chris says, can you direct us to information about this isolated outbreak? If you can’t, then I respectfully suggest it is a figment of your imagination.

  104. pa nurse
    January 19, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    To Chris, one last thing, as far as my nursing is concerned? I have helped bring life into this world and helped life leave. I’ve worked from the delivery room to hospice and everything in between. I have names and faces stamped on my brain and in my heart of their joy, laughter, as well as the sorrow and pain. I will carry this with me till my death. I am an excellent nurse, because I can care for you, I can see to your needs, and I will provide the best care humanly possible.

    I do not feel compelled to quote the research as I have met several of the wonderful people on those panels. They themselves will tell you, they were contracted by the very companies who manufacture vaccines, and paid to research the benefits of immunizations not the adverse issues. You cannot always put your trust in research, it is an ongoing process, it will change again one day. What you can do, is make the most informed decision based on information available, discuss it with your Dr., and be satisfied you made the best decision you could. ANY medication is a risk, all have risks, some more than others, the decision to use these is yours, therefore becomes your risk.

    My heart does bleed for you and what you have had to go through with and for your children. I have been blessed with a healthy son and healthy grandsons, no adverse reactions or issues. I am presently encouraging my son to have my grandsons vaccinated for the HPV virus, so I can assure you I am not anti immunizations. But the question does remain, why are so many of our children having these neurological problems that did not exist before these massive immunizations? And yes Chris, that is the only thing that has changed in more than 50 years of tracking these childhood diseases.

    You ask me to quote research? From what I can see your own passion comes from your personal experience with childhood illnesses. So Chris, what is the difference between a parent who has a child who may not be able to take these vaccines due to a compromised immune system, and is at risk because a parent who is scared to death that giving these vaccines to their child will result in neurological issues down the road? Have you got an answer for them, I certainly don’t. The research you are so passionate about certainly doesn’t. So the argument continues.

  105. dt
    January 19, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    I am frankly surprised by your experience as an ER nurse, where apparently you have seen several kids with encephalopathy post vaccination, and numerous vaccine-induced autoimmune disease and asthma.

    You truly must work on a different planet to the rest of us. (as Chris might say, possibly Htrae?). I have worked for 25 years as a General and Infection Specialist, and have never seen a case as you describe (which is hardly surprising since vaccines do not cause asthma, and only extremely rarely precipitate autoimmune reactions or encephalopathy).

  106. Pablo
    January 19, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    Erwin Alber :
    I certainly wouldn’t, because I would be happy for my child to get measles.

    Sorry, I’m a day late but I just wanted to respond to this:

    I can’t believe you have any children, because I can’t believe that any parent could be so horrible to their child.

    Maybe I am just an old softy, but when my kids (actual living, breathing kids) get sick, it tears me apart. I feel terrible for them if they have a mere cough or runny nose, because I know that it makes me miserable, and I don’t like my kids to be miserable. Unfortunately, it is usually the case that I am helpless to make them better, but that doesn’t mean I am content with the situation.

    Now, that is just a cold, and nothing all that serious. But when my younger went through a bout with hand, foot, and mouth, that was even worse! To hear him scream in pain in just taking a drink of water almost killed me!

    I cannot comprehend the mindset that anyone would be “happy” to have their child miserable for a couple of weeks with the measles or chicken pox, when a simple vaccine is available. Let’s see, compare “redness at the injection site” for a day (maybe – only 20% of those getting the chicken pox vaccine have that) vs 2 weeks of incessant itching accompanied by fever? I’d rather my kids have neither, but that’s not close. Are there risks of serious complications with vaccines? Yes, but none compare to the 1/1000 risk of death that comes with the measles, or even the 1/20 000 risk of death with the chicken pox (and that is only the risk of death)

    Only a parent who is a monster could enjoy their child having the measles. Giving Erwin the benefit of the doubt, I can only figure he isn’t a parent.

  107. January 19, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    I introduce bovine DNA regularly into my human organism. For instance, today, I had a hamburger for lunch.

  108. Chris
    January 19, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    pa nurse:

    You ask me to quote research? From what I can see your own passion comes from your personal experience with childhood illnesses.

    No, I ask you support your claims with research.

    I also did not make claims based on my experience. The two papers I posted for you to read were not based on my experience.

    Here is how I will now respond on your comments:

    They themselves will tell you, they were contracted by the very companies who manufacture vaccines, and paid to research the benefits of immunizations not the adverse issues.

    [citation needed]

    . But the question does remain, why are so many of our children having these neurological problems that did not exist before these massive immunizations?[/blockquote>

    [citation needed]

    Though to answer it with real data that shows what you wrote was false, if you have evidence to the contrary, please present it in a form shown below:

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.
    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.

    Lack of association between acellular pertussis vaccine and seizures in early childhood.
    Pediatrics. 2010 Aug;126(2):263-9. Epub 2010 Jul 19.

    Vaccine. 2011 Nov 12. [Epub ahead of print]
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

  109. January 19, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Erwin Alber (vaccineshur) doesn’t provide citations. He trots out things like “delusional insanity” everywhere, whilst inferring that vaccines make you gay. Trolololol

  110. CanadianNurse
    January 19, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    I see several nurses here agreeing with ThePatrioticNurse.
    If you are in agreement with her original video, I’d expect you to be refuting all of the corrections that I posted above.

  111. conspiracytheorist
    January 19, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Nathan: Is it a wacky conspiracy that we have a for-profit health care system that has left my middle class family without healthcare for years? My premiums are $800 a month, I cannot afford to see a doctor.

    Is it a wacky conspiracy that Americans are sick from the foods we eat, that the trans-fats oils restaurants and supermarkets sell us should be illegal but are not?

    It is not wacky that our legislators are beholden to the powerful interests they get together with at fundraisers every other night. It is just logic.

    And if doctors wanted us to be healthy, they would protest against trans-fats in front of Publix.

  112. Ted
    January 20, 2012 at 3:12 am

    pa nurse :
    Chill out, and for the record I AM your “cite”.

    Have you been peer reviewed lately?

  113. Steve Michaels
    January 20, 2012 at 5:31 am

    Chris, you and yours always say that ‘anti-vaccinaters’ just spout the same old stuff. Well guess what? SO DO YOU!! You cited all of those studies previously and they were all questioned because, as is the case with ALL vaccine studies, they only compare vaccinated children to vaccinated children. Hardly a stretch to get a ‘favorable’ result now is it? Here is the gist of ALL vaccine studies:

    Some people smoke Marlboro, some people smoke Newport, some people smoke both, however, ALL members of the cohort smoke. All groups have similar health outcomes with regards to emphysema and lung cancer. Conclusion: Smoking does not contribute to emphysema or lung cancer.

    Let us not forget, in keeping with the above logic, that for years, DOCTORS were spokesmen in cigarette advertising. Yet it is claimed that doctors ONLY have our best interests at heart. They wouldn’t promote anything for profit, or would they? While this argument may appear about smoking, it is not. Show me the studies that compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. Oops, forgot, THERE AREN’T ANY! Why? Pro-vaxers would say that sort of study is unethical. Yet that argument falls flat because there are thousand of people who do NOT vaccinate their children who’s health outcomes could be compared to vaccinated children yet no studies by the established and accepted research centers has been done. Why not?

  114. January 20, 2012 at 6:13 am

    Steve Michaels :
    Chris, you and yours always say that ‘anti-vaccinaters’ just spout the same old stuff. Well guess what? SO DO YOU!! You cited all of those studies previously and they were all questioned because, as is the case with ALL vaccine studies, they only compare vaccinated children to vaccinated children.Hardly a stretch to get a ‘favorable’ result now is it? Here is the gist of ALL vaccine studies:
    Some people smoke Marlboro, some people smoke Newport, some people smoke both, however, ALL members of the cohort smoke. All groups have similar health outcomes with regards to emphysema and lung cancer. Conclusion: Smoking does not contribute to emphysema or lung cancer.
    Let us not forget, in keeping with the above logic, that for years, DOCTORS were spokesmen in cigarette advertising. Yet it is claimed that doctors ONLY have our best interests at heart. They wouldn’t promote anything for profit, or would they? While this argument may appear about smoking, it is not. Show me the studies that compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. Oops, forgot, THERE AREN’T ANY! Why? Pro-vaxers would say that sort of study is unethical. Yet that argument falls flat because there are thousand of people who do NOT vaccinate their children who’s health outcomes could be compared to vaccinated children yet no studies by the established and accepted research centers has been done. Why not?

    ORLY?
    Schmitz, R; Poethko-Müller, C; Reiter, S; Schlaud, M (2011). Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents: Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS) Dtsch Arztebl Int, 108 (7), 99-104

    So, the work you say hasn’t been done, HAS been done. Next.

  115. Chris
    January 20, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Mr. Michaels:

    Show me the studies that compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. Oops, forgot, THERE AREN’T ANY! Why? Pro-vaxers would say that sort of study is unethical. Yet that argument falls flat because there are thousand of people who do NOT vaccinate their children who’s health outcomes could be compared to vaccinated children yet no studies by the established and accepted research centers has been done. Why not?

    Well, for one thing that is not the same as double blinded (the parents who don’t vaccinate know their child’s status). What you described as been done, Alison just posted the study from Germany that I have shown you many times.

    Also what you described is actually an epidemiological study, where many have been done. That includes the several studies from Denmark (which has a very comprehensive medical database on its population), and in other countries.

    And yes, many of them contain records of children who have had been partially to never been vaccinated (like the ones from the American Health Maintenance Organizations like Kaiser Permanente, Group Health and others). The German study found a small group who had not been vaccinated. And of course, some of your friends then complained that it should have included the partially vaccinated. A classic case of moving the goal posts.

    Now, as I have said before: If you are not satisfied with those studies then get your friends at Autism Trust, SafeMinds, Generation Rescue and others who are calling for such a study to pay for it. Since the many studies that have been done all over this planet for the last twenty years still find that vaccines are safe and are not correlated to autism, there is not reason to spend any more limited research funds in that direction. It is time to move on to using the limited funds on the real educational, transitional and job needs of the disabled.

    Chris, you and yours always say that ‘anti-vaccinaters’ just spout the same old stuff. Well guess what? SO DO YOU!!

    It is not my fault that you have a closed mind and refuse the answers that have been given to you. If you keep repeating the same stuff, you get the same answers back. What do you expect?

    When my children were young they would often times refuse to accept a “No” for something they wanted. After about a dozen times I would look at the child and say, “Now next time you ask that question just repeat back the answer I have given you several times over that last few minutes, because it is not going to change.”

  116. Steve Michaels
    January 20, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Chris, why do you insist on only looking at morbidity and not mortality? The pro-vax claim is that ‘vaccines save lives”, so certainly the mortality rate is not only relevant, but, in fact, crucial. As we both know, the mortality rate doesn’t fit your argument. Stop playing with semantics and admit that, while the measles vaccine has statistically lowered the cases of measles, the fact remains that the prevention of the disease itself is not nearly as “life saving” as you would like to lead people to believe. On top of that, there are no studies supporting the long term safety of vaccines, correlation to the side, that can allow a meaningful risk/benefit analysis for parents to make an informed choice. But then again, you people don’t want informed choice, you prefer force to make people comply with your view. Thanks, but no thanks!

  117. Steve Michaels
    January 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    I must admit that I didn’t actually watch the Patriot Nurse video until now. I only replied to specific comments made by the peanut gallery. Upon watching the video I realized something profound. Christine, et al, have vehemently attacked (with false argument) a video from someone who explicitly stated that the views she was espousing were her own, that her views were based on information too expansive to cover in a short video, and specifically stated that her view was for informed consent and free choice. The fact that concepts such as ‘informed consent’ and ‘free choice’ elicit such profound attacks only serve to highlight that the pro-vax views expressed on this site are not only irrational, they are un-American and stem from a fear of, and desire to destroy, free choice for those who disagree with them. That is arrogant desire to limit free choice and informed consent is, by definition, a desire for tyranny. Thank you very much, but I can make up my own mind and I am free by law and God to disagree with you.

  118. Steve Michaels
    January 20, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    And for those of you who think that vaccines somehow ‘cost’ pharma money, I suggest you read this.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20877-vaccines-enjoy-a-healthy-return.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

  119. Chris
    January 20, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    Mr. Michaels:

    Chris, why do you insist on only looking at morbidity and not mortality?</blockquote.

    What are you going on about? I do look at deaths, but that is not the whole picture. Why are you ignoring the many more people who don't die from a disease yet are permanently disabled? Why do you ignore the costs of medical interventions to keep people from dying.

    As I have explained before when one studies the effect of anything it works better to reduce the number of variables. The rate of mortality is not only affected by the number of people who get the disease but the updates in medical care. That includes providing respiratory support and antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections.

    By the way, the medical costs are not minor. Why do you refuse the answer my question on the costs of treating the one out of a thousand who get measles in a hospital versus actually preventing the disease in the first place. I have provided studies on how much the 1989-1992 measles outbreak cost the State of California and other economic studies on the costs of vaccine versus care. What do you have to show that letting measles return will save money?

    Plus there are costs to take care of kids who become blind, paralyzed, deaf, and end up slowly dying from SSPE. Why do you choose to ignore those?

    So did you actually read Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998? Tell us how every American dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine in 1994 affected medical costs and indirect societal costs? Did it bring more or less money to “Big Pharma”? A bit over twenty years ago what was the leading cause of childhood bacterial meningitis and postnatal mental retardation? What happened to that particular bacterial disease in the USA?

    On top of that, there are no studies supporting the long term safety of vaccines, correlation to the side, that can allow a meaningful risk/benefit analysis for parents to make an informed choice.

    Again, if you find the present level of research not to your liking, then it is up to you to encourage Autism Trust, SafeMinds, Generation Rescue and others to fund that research. Or pay for it yourself.

    But then again, you people don’t want informed choice, you prefer force to make people comply with your view. Thanks, but no thanks!

    Except I actually answer questions with real data. I can’t help it if you refuse to open up your mind to read it. You still have not answered several of my questions, and when you do it is from some random website that cherry picks the data.

    So exactly what measles vaccine virus was supposed to be causing problems (the list I gave was incomplete), and exactly which of at least four different MMR vaccines were the focus of Wakefield’s research? And why did he go on about it in 1998 when two were no longer used, one was never used in the UK and a new one was being introduced in that year? And what data did he have that was produced between 1971 (when the first MMR vaccine was introduced) and 1997 that was the basis of telling parents to use single vaccines at a press conference, when the paper had no evidence for such a suggestion. And really what real evidence do you have that any MMR vaccine in the UK and American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella? Just post the title, journal and title of the PubMed index studies to support your answers, much like the many I have used to answer your rather repetitive questions.

  120. January 21, 2012 at 12:40 am

    There are no studies looking at the long-term safety of parachutes, either…

  121. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 6:10 am

    From current comment 111 by you Chris: “What caused the incidence of measles (also known as “morbidity”) in the USA in 1970 to be only 10% of what it was in 1960? Do not use “mortality”, do not use any other country (England and Wales are not part of the USA, and neither is Japan), and do not use any other decade.”

    From this comment: “What are you going on about? I do look at deaths, but that is not the whole picture.”

    And you have the temerity to imply that I have misquoted you? It really is funny that you can’t even argue on the same page as your colleagues. The accusation of limiting scope to get the ‘desired result’ is usually hurled AT people who do not support vaccines. And hear you are limiting the scope because the stated parameters fit your preconceived notions. You also destroy the risk/benefit equation by refusing to look at the real big picture about US childhood healthcare outcomes.

    I have quoted this previously, but here it is again,

    http://www.stakeholderdesign.com/thoughts/?p=130

    A recap of these statistics:

    The US spends MORE than any other country per capita on health care, gives their children the highest number of vaccines in the world, has below average life expectancy and above average childhood mortality and the highest percentage of the population on prescription medication, both child and adult.

    Considering the real big picture, where are those saved childhood lives? Where is all this cost saving that you claim is being achieved? The US spends nearly DOUBLE the next highest spending country per capita on health care and has, at best, mediocre results. And vaccines are part of that spending. And if you choose to argue that vaccines cost the industry money, read this:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20877-vaccines-enjoy-a-healthy-return.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

    New Scientist is hardly an anti-vaccine publication. Look around you. People are sick. People are unemployed. The US economy is dying, yet multi-national pharmaceutical companies are not just surviving, they are thriving on the back of a generally unhealthy population. The reason people like me describe the healthcare system as ‘sick care’ is because the profits of the sector depend on people being ill, not healthy. Healthy people are bad for business and business is booming!

  122. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 10:05 am

    The US spends MORE than any other country per capita on health care,

    Those are problems with not having universal healthcare, basically lack of access. Illustrated by this PubMed indexed article. What were the problems mentioned in the article, and what was a proposed solution?

    I will remind you again that you are requested not to use random websites and news sites. Just post the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed articles to support your statements.

    I also suggest you read that New Scientist article closer:

    Two factors have turned the industry around. One is an increasing demand for vaccines in developing countries. This is partly due to greater prosperity in the growing economies of China and India but also because vaccination is being vigorously promoted by various organisations as a route to economic development.

    Now answer my questions. I will keep asking them until you answer them. At least you have finally figured out why the morbidity of measles dropped by 90% (oh, and the deaths went down accordingly).

    What is the estimate of cost savings with the NHS have if they withdrew the MMR and went back to vaccine policy before 1988? Use the rates of measles, mumps and rubella before 1980 to illustrate the cost savings in vaccine purchases and hospital care. How exactly does treating a disease save on health care costs versus preventing the disease?

    What is the number to the left of the word “vaccines” on page 30 of this document. What does that number represent?

    Have you read “Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998″ yet? Tell us how every American dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine in 1994 affected medical costs and indirect societal costs? Did it bring more or less money to “Big Pharma”? A bit over twenty years ago what was the leading cause of childhood bacterial meningitis and postnatal mental retardation? What happened to that particular bacterial disease in the USA?

    So exactly what measles vaccine virus was supposed to be causing problems (the list I gave was incomplete), and exactly which of at least four different MMR vaccines were the focus of Wakefield’s research? And why did he go on about it in 1998 when two were no longer used, one was never used in the UK and a new one was being introduced in that year? And what data did he have that was produced between 1971 (when the first MMR vaccine was introduced) and 1997 that was the basis of telling parents to use single vaccines at a press conference, when the paper had no evidence for such a suggestion.

    And really what real evidence do you have that any MMR vaccine in the UK and American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella? Just post the title, journal and title of the PubMed index studies to support your answers, much like the many I have used to answer your rather repetitive questions.

  123. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 10:57 am

    And hear you are limiting the scope because the stated parameters fit your preconceived notions.

    As I have explained before when one studies the effect of anything it works better to reduce the number of variables. The rate of mortality is not only affected by the number of people who get the disease but the updates in medical care. That includes providing respiratory support and antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections.

    Why are you ignoring the many more people who don’t die from a disease yet are permanently disabled? Why do you ignore the costs of medical interventions to keep people from dying.

  124. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 11:25 am

    Chris you really should read what you write before posting: “Those are problems with not having universal healthcare, basically lack of access.” Are you trying to say that lack of access is causing costs to go up? People who lack access are not paying into the system and not contributing to the per capita cost. People without health insurance don’t frivolously go to the doctor and get treatments they can’t afford from doctors who they cannot pay. US healthcare expenditure is beyond a joke and yet you make silly statements instead of conceding that your entire ‘vaccines save money’ claim is simply ludicrous. Big picture statistics lay to rest any doubts about that. Especially considering the fact that most parents who refuse vaccination are economically secure and well educated. The highest uptake is amongst the poor and uninsured as vaccination programs are sponsored by the state to ensure availability.

    And why do you keep trying to bring up Wakefield? This type of diversionary tactic only exposes the weakness of your claims. At no point in this discussion has anything been said that involves anything to do with Wakefield. So why bang on about it?

    And AofA, Whaleto and many other sites that you disapprove of have done or link to studies that show correlative and causal relationships between vaccines and injuries, but any time anyone tries to bring them up, you and yours summarily dismiss them as not reliable because they are ‘anti vaccine’ sites. Then you say something like, “Now, as I have said before: If you are not satisfied with those studies then get your friends at Autism Trust, SafeMinds, Generation Rescue and others who are calling for such a study to pay for it.” Then when the reports are cited, you claim they are unreliable because of the source, and around and around we dance.

    And as long as the establishment refuse to even consider any vaccine injury relationships, ALL cost comparisons are completely inaccurate and useless.

    As far as your quote from New Scientist, “Two factors have turned the industry around. One is an increasing demand for vaccines in developing countries. This is partly due to greater prosperity in the growing economies of China and India but also because vaccination is being vigorously promoted by various organisations as a route to economic development”, have you actually read it or just quoted it? There is NOT an increasing demand for vaccines in developing countries. Vaccines are being foisted on them by the UN, Bill Gates and officials paid to push the vaccines. People aren’t lining up to get vaccinated. Many are being vaccinated at gun point.

    http://www.malawivoice.com/latest-news/131-children-vaccinated-at-gunpoint-in-nsanje/

    The problem with vaccines, as epitomized by sites like this, is that demand is NOT increasing because people are clamoring for more vaccines, it is because, as New Scientist points out, “vaccination is being vigorously promoted by various organisations”. And many of those organizations are riddled with conflicts of interest with manufacturers. As the pro vaccine narrative unravels, as more and more people see their own and their neighbors’ children harmed by vaccines, the shrill call for legislative action to mandate vaccines increases by organizations who vigorously promote vaccines. Mandated use is not increased demand. It is being forced to become a customer. Even though guns aren’t used in America to force vaccinations, the threat is already being implied. And enforcement by threat of violence is not governance by consent, it is dictatorship. But then again, you probably recognize that. Otherwise you wouldn’t be so upset about a nurse expressing a personal view and suggesting full informed consent.

  125. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 11:35 am

    And Chris, just as an aside, the mortality rate decline was on the same statistical decline before and after vaccinations. That is why you you insist on comparing morbidity instead of mortality. Yes cases declined after vaccination, but death rates were on a long standing and consistent decline for decades before vaccines. Again, this just shows that your “vaccines save lives” claim is, at best, disingenuous.

  126. pa nurse
    January 21, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Hi Steve, been reading your back and forth’s with Chris. I gave up. This whole thing started because a nurse offered her opinion, with some empirical evidence, despite not being up to Chris’ standards. What I find most offensive is Chris’ lack of respect in regards to the fact that nurses have contact with thousands of people throughout their career, it is difficult for us to spout “cites” when we see it first hand on a day to day basis. Our opinions are valid, despite people like Chris.

  127. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Oh and Chris, it has happened in America already. Just found this.

    http://www.naturalnews.com/022267_vaccinations_health_freedom.html

    As I recall Jim Jones used the same basic tactics to get people to drink his Kool-Aid. Why is it a crime when an individual does it but not when the state does it? What are YOU going to do when someone comes with a gun to force you to do something you don’t want to?

  128. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    I appreciate your position. I live in the UK and when they tried to schedule the vac visit after the well baby check I politely declined and they simply had me sign an informed declination form to keep on file and that was that. The US seems a bit more dictatorial in it’s approach. Our mid wife was 100% supportive of our decision and she retired immediately after the birth of our second and had 40+ years experience and agreed with our stance based on her own observations as well.

    Unfortunately, people like Chris (and others on here) are terrified of the prospect of parents making their own decisions. The arrogance and egotistical stance they take shows that they hold a condescending view of others and believe themselves to be qualified to dictate their views onto others.

  129. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Why are you ignoring the many more people who don’t die from a disease yet are permanently disabled? Why do you ignore the costs of medical interventions to keep people from dying.

  130. c
    January 21, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    This attempt at debunking patriot nurse is null and void because this author of the post uses info and studies funded by vaccines companies. It becomes apparent when checking her articles. Three words for author of this post….peer reviewed please.

  131. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    How exactly does treating a disease save on health care costs versus preventing the disease?

    What is the number to the left of the word “vaccines” on page 30 of this document? What does that number represent?

    Have you read “Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998″ yet? Tell us how every American dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine in 1994 affected medical costs and indirect societal costs? Did it bring more or less money to “Big Pharma”? A bit over twenty years ago what was the leading cause of childhood bacterial meningitis and postnatal mental retardation? What happened to that particular bacterial disease in the USA?

    So exactly what measles vaccine virus was supposed to be causing problems (the list I gave was incomplete), and exactly which of at least four different MMR vaccines were the focus of Wakefield’s research? And why did he go on about it in 1998 when two were no longer used, one was never used in the UK and a new one was being introduced in that year? And what data did he have that was produced between 1971 (when the first MMR vaccine was introduced) and 1997 that was the basis of telling parents to use single vaccines at a press conference, when the paper had no evidence for such a suggestion.

    And really what real evidence do you have that any MMR vaccine in the UK and American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella?

    Just post the title, journal and title of the PubMed index studies to support your answers, much like the many I have used to answer your rather repetitive questions. I do not accept AoA, Childhealthsafety, whale.to and NaturalNews because the cherry pick and lie.

  132. pa nurse
    January 21, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Thanks Steve, yes as I’ve been saying throughout this whole thing, is it is most important for parents to make informed decisions, and at the present time parents in the US can still do that. I share your concern for the “at gun point” politics that could rise up behind this issue. Although a bit off topic; the US govt has supported companies refusing to hire people who smoke, although I do understand the reasoning behind this, where will it stop? They can legally test you for nicotine, and if positive, they can refuse to hire you. So, my concern is when are they going to start checking diabetics A1-C’s or the guy with serious cardiac problems lipid panels? I know many diabetics who can’t get through a day without that bowl of ice cream or the guy who just had open heart surgery who must have two chili dogs for lunch. Are they not equally as guilty of “not being responsible for their health”? If we deny parents the choice of immunizing or not; there is no doubt it will be a direct attack on personal freedoms.

    I live and grew up just north of Philadelphia, Pa. We still celebrate Ben Franklin’s birthday around here (it’s next week as a matter of fact), freedom means something extra special to us in the original 13, even if it’s only because we have had it pounded into our heads!

    Our problems all stem from greed, greed in this country is very powerful. Don’t get me wrong, I am also Native American and I love this country, but it is changing, and not necessarily for the better. So myself along with the other 99 spend a lot of time praying.

    God bless ya’ Steve for your patience with Chris, I AM hoping someone get’s through, it does all come down to choice, and then learning how to live with those choices. We need Chris’ passion, it is admirable, but passion without openness can only end badly.

    Wonderful chatting with you, visiting the UK is first on my bucket list!

  133. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    For each link she posted, please post which pharmaceutical company paid for it. Something like this treatment of a similar claim. Thank you.

  134. Chris
    January 21, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    [blockquote]Then you say something like, “Now, as I have said before: If you are not satisfied with those studies then get your friends at Autism Trust, SafeMinds, Generation Rescue and others who are calling for such a study to pay for it.” Then when the reports are cited, you claim they are unreliable because of the source, and around and around we dance.[/blockquote]

    Because they have paid for real research in the past. The researchers who do are often more honest, and often times it does not say what they want them to say. Some researchers paid by SafeMinds include Burbacher and Hornig.

    Now, what is really interesting is their reaction when it does not go the way they want it: A bad day for antivaccinationists: Yet another study fails to support an association between vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders:

    Sour grapes, anyone? Ms. Bernard was a consultant on this study and helped contribute to its design! She apparently didn’t like the results that it was producing and decided to drop out and start criticizing it–even jumping the gun on the 5 PM embargo yesterday to do so! Indeed, she is listed on the study in a way that I’ve never seen before: as a “dissenting member.”

    Now answer my questions. I am very curious how not vaccinating real actually save money. I really want to see how that works out, but I still want real evidence.

  135. Steve Michaels
    January 21, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Well we are not as far apart as you may think. I was New York born and Lansdale, Pa raised. I just live in the UK now and have done for 15+ years now so I know what it is like. The difference between us and Chris and the like is that we don’t really care if Chris wants to vaccinate his kids or not. They want to tell everyone else what to do and force their own version of reality on other people. We are ALL created in God’s image as sovereign, intelligent and sentient beings. Nobody has more or less right over anybody else. End of story. They can do what they wish, but the line is crossed when they try to force others. I have and always will promote informed consent and full access to all sides of any issue. People can make up their own minds.

  136. pa nurse
    January 21, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Well said!

  137. January 21, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Your credulity amazes me, stevie.

    Even fox news is not as inflammatory as naturalnews. I truly wonder where the limit is for you to disbelieve an obviously poorly written story even though it might agree with you politically. I have seen no evidence of such an ability on your part so far.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312066,00.html

    And, if you looked just a tiny bit deeper into it you might find that
    “Under Maryland state law, students who have religious reasons or a certified medical exemption will not be forced to be vaccinated, said Judge Phillip Nichols, who is overseeing the case, on “Good Morning America Weekend Edition” today. ”

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/WaterCooler/story?id=3880578&page=1#.TxtgLYHjKzk

    So the truth is that a judge required some parents to comply with MD law by providing proof that their child was immunized, proof that they were medically exempt, or sign a paper claiming a religious exemption. Also, notice the decided LACK of attack dogs in the picture from fox news.

    Having said that, I am not really interested in it. I knew the claim was false as soon as you made it (you made it, after all and virtually every one of your claims I’ve looked into has proven to be false).

    What fascinates me more is the depravity you have not compunction sinking too in order to support your political agenda. I like to think of myself as something of a radical. Admittedly not on the issue of vaccination. But on many other topics. But the depth of the degradations you are willing to subject rationality to are awe inspiring. That natural news article was blatantly over blown. Not a little, not maybe, not even merely because it was published in such a useless excuse for a blog. But the tone and hyperbole were simply obvious. And yet you bought into it hook line and sinker merely because it supported your political agenda. It is almost as if you have no concept that an objective reality exists.

  138. Steve Michaels
    January 22, 2012 at 5:59 am

    “Under Maryland state law, students who have religious reasons or a certified medical exemption will not be forced to be vaccinated”, said Judge Phillip Nichols

    How do you read English? I read that to say, “and the rest WILL be forced”, and you claim force (or the threat of force) was not used.

    “What fascinates me more is the depravity you have not compunction sinking too in order to support your political agenda.”

    My political objective is clear, free choice and informed consent. I note that you ignore the Malawi incident, funded in part by your hero, Bill Gates. Don’t be so selective. If you are going to comment, don’t cherry pick based on source. That is how you promote a political agenda. And should I dig up the case of the 14 year old boy who, against his and his parents wishes, was taken by the state and strapped to a table to be force injected with chemotherapy drugs? A medical police state already exists. Just because it is not enforced in many cases yet does not detract from the fact that the legislation is in force and they don’t pass legislation without intending to use it at some point. Just pray for yourself that it doesn’t happen to you!

  139. Steve Michaels
    January 22, 2012 at 9:41 am

    And just as a side note, the toned down version on Fox fits in with specifically trying NOT to illicit a strong condemnation while Natural News is attempting to break through the cognitive dissonance to wake people up to what the action REALLY means. Your views of me are really irrelevant to the issue. Let me quote from Fox:

    “So Circuit Court Judge C. Philip Nichols ordered parents in a letter to appear at the courthouse Saturday and either get their children vaccinated on the spot or risk up to 10 days in jail. They could also provide proof of vaccination or an explanation why their kids didn’t have them.”

    Now the REAL question is, ‘who’s children are these? the parents or the state?’ If you answer ‘the state’, then you support human slavery. To say that is not inflammatory, it just isn’t a sugar coated euphemism. The judge believes it is the state. I do not. The very concept of ‘force’ to make someone inject something into their body against their will is not only un-American (in the Constitutional sense), it is also anti-human.

  140. January 22, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    “and you claim force (or the threat of force) was not used.”

    No, I know that the threat of force was not carried out at gun point under the watchful noses of guard dogs as your article claimed. I know that your article was a pack of hyperbole bordering on lies (from the wrong side). I wonder at your credulity that you actually believe that anyone had a gun pointed at them as the needle was inserted.

    A law, any law, is a codification of the circumstances under which the state may use force. Having said that, letters in the mail and lines at a courthouse are not the same thing (even morally) as jack booted thugs breaking down doors and aiming guns at cowering children as masked agents shoot chemicals into their arms.

    “My political objective is clear, free choice and informed consent”
    No, stevie, that is not your political agenda at all. If it were, you would at least pay lip service to the concept of an objective measurable reality you do not. When you accept lock stock and barrel the picture of poor citizens being herded onto the point of a needle by dog handling gun brandishing thugs with virtually no reliable evidence what so ever, you abandon the very foundation of “informed” consent. Namely information.

    Your political agenda is to cause as much fear uncertainty and doubt as you can concerning life saving medical treatments. Indeed, if I were to channel Natural News – “Steve Micheals political agenda is to cause as much death, destruction, and mayhem as possible without getting his cowardly hands dirty”.

    “Don’t be so selective. If you are going to comment, don’t cherry pick based on source.”
    I am under no obligation to respond to each and every single pile on inane crap you see fit to try and foist on others. I tend to comment on things for which I have an informed position. A tactic you should really try sometime. The informed part I mean.

  141. Steve Michaels
    January 22, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    So, gattarian, let’s take this in bite size bits, shall we?
    “No, I know that the threat of force was not carried out at gun point under the watchful noses of guard dogs as your article claimed.”

    Your thorough lack of understanding that the threat of force by those who have been proven to be immune to punishment for improprietous use of force is essentially the same thing. It is based on SCARING people into submission. “Submission” is the key word.

    “A law, any law, is a codification of the circumstances under which the state may use force.”

    Your lack of understanding of the Constitution is profound and explanatory of why the Constitution has been so completely disregarded. The purpose of Law in a FREE society is to balance Common Law and individual liberty, NOT to say it’s okay for the state to use force. In fact, the Constitution was specifically written to prevent Law from being used in this way. In fact, under Common Law, the judge in this case is guilty of assault and the court house and medical staff that administered the shots are guilty of being accomplices to assault. But then again, if you don’t understand the differences between Common Law and Commerce or Maritime Law then you are already a lost cause until you learn how the world really works.

    “Having said that, letters in the mail and lines at a courthouse are not the same thing (even morally) as jack booted thugs breaking down doors and aiming guns at cowering children as masked agents shoot chemicals into their arms.”

    No, but I assume you have no problem with EXACTLY that being done to unarmed peaceful protesters or mentally deficient people or people who were at the wrong address at the wrong time when the police ‘get it wrong’. And these aforementioned issues are exactly why you are wrong. People know that police brutality and state dictatorship are already here and that is what make the ‘threat’ of force the same as the ‘use’ of force. People submit because they know that, just or not, the threat can be carried out with impunity. The fact that you either don’t see this or don’t seem to care is frightening!

    “Your political agenda is to cause as much fear uncertainty and doubt as you can concerning life saving medical treatments. Indeed, if I were to channel Natural News – “Steve Micheals political agenda is to cause as much death, destruction, and mayhem as possible without getting his cowardly hands dirty”.”

    Firstly, your claim that these are ‘life saving medical treatments’ is specious at best. The value of these treatments and the risks are still totally up for debate as there have been ZERO true double blind placebo studies done. Secondly, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of, except I used hyperbole (as did NN) to create the REAL image of what is happening. The meanings have been described to strip away the fluff and show what is really happening. You have just made up a bunch of nonsense that has no link to reality at all.

    “I am under no obligation to respond to each and every single pile on inane crap you see fit to try and foist on others. I tend to comment on things for which I have an informed position.”

    So you consider the Malawi situation ‘crap’ do you? The logical extension of what happened in Maryland is what happened in Malawi. Coercion to use something you say you do not want to use is the issue here. The degree of force or threat of force is irrelevant in that the end result is the same. People are subjugated by the state which really has no authority to do what it is doing. You may be willing to acquiesce to this sort of thing, but I am not, and you have no right to make my choice for me. THAT is informed consent. A concept you seem completely unable to grasp. If you want every shot under the sun, you have at it my friend. But you do not, nor does anyone else, have the right to my body or my soul. That is called the sovereignty of man.

  142. January 23, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Steve Michaels :
    So, gattarian, let’s take this in bite size bits, shall we?
    “No, I know that the threat of force was not carried out at gun point under the watchful noses of guard dogs as your article claimed.”
    Your thorough lack of understanding that the threat of force by those who have been proven to be immune to punishment for improprietous use of force is essentially the same thing. It is based on SCARING people into submission. “Submission” is the key word.

    No, Lying is the key word. Your source did. You did. AND you almost always do. You and your source claimed specific events which did not happen. That is called lying.

    “A law, any law, is a codification of the circumstances under which the state may use force.”
    Your lack of understanding of the Constitution is profound and explanatory of why the Constitution has been so completely disregarded. The purpose of Law in a FREE society is to balance Common Law and individual liberty, NOT to say it’s okay for the state to use force. In fact, the Constitution was specifically written to prevent Law from being used in this way. In fact, under Common Law, the judge in this case is guilty of assault and the court house and medical staff that administered the shots are guilty of being accomplices to assault. But then again, if you don’t understand the differences between Common Law and Commerce or Maritime Law then you are already a lost cause until you learn how the world really works.

    Congratulations! You have just demonstrated LESS understanding of a subject than you have of vaccines. Laws limit where and when the government can use force. Laws against murder essentially allow the government to use force against murderers. The limitations imposed on the use of force in the Constitution is inherent in its layout of the various aspects of law making and explicit in the 10th amendment.

    “Having said that, letters in the mail and lines at a courthouse are not the same thing (even morally) as jack booted thugs breaking down doors and aiming guns at cowering children as masked agents shoot chemicals into their arms.”
    No, but I assume you have no problem with EXACTLY that being done to …

    Of course you assume that. You assume lots of things. You make up facts to suit yourself. That is my whole point today. You are a liar. You are wrong. AND you lack the integrity to see these things about yourself.

    “Your political agenda is to cause as much fear uncertainty and doubt as you can concerning life saving medical treatments. Indeed, if I were to channel Natural News – “Steve Micheals political agenda is to cause as much death, destruction, and mayhem as possible without getting his cowardly hands dirty”.”
    Firstly, your claim that these are ‘life saving medical treatments’ is specious at best. The value of these treatments and the risks are still totally up for debate as there have been ZERO true double blind placebo studies done. Secondly, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of, except I used hyperbole (as did NN) to create the REAL image of what is happening. The meanings have been described to strip away the fluff and show what is really happening. You have just made up a bunch of nonsense that has no link to reality at all.

    Your divorce from reality has been finalized. Neither you nor your source used hyperbole. You lied. You both claimed that specific actions occurred which did not occur. Again, because I know your slow, lying is not hyperbole. Hyperbole would have been drawing a moral equivalent to bared guns and snarling dogs. Instead, you and your source claimed that this actually occurred.

    Your insistence on the absence of double blind placebo studies is precisely what I am talking about. I have shown you such studies. Others have as well. That you insist they don’t exist is simply another example of you ignoring reality in favor of your personal fantasy. If you wanted to be hyperbolic, you could have said “Truely reliable Double Blind Placebo have not been done in sufficient quantity nor quality to finally demonstrate vaccine’s efficacy nor safety.”

    Instead you insist on outright lies. I find that fascinating. You insist on divorcing yourself from reality despite the fact that this makes your political goals that much farther out of reach.

    “I am under no obligation to respond to each and every single pile on inane crap you see fit to try and foist on others. I tend to comment on things for which I have an informed position.”
    So you consider the Malawi situation ‘crap’ do you?

    No, you are still confusing your personal fantasy (that things you claim or post are true) with reality (That it is highly likely your claims and posts are not true).

    “The logical extension of what happened in Maryland is what happened in Malawi. Coercion to use something you say you do not want to use is the issue here. The degree of force or threat of force is irrelevant in that the end result is the same. People are subjugated by the state which really has no authority to do what it is doing. You may be willing to acquiesce to this sort of thing, but I am not, and you have no right to make my choice for me. THAT is informed consent. A concept you seem completely unable to grasp. If you want every shot under the sun, you have at it my friend. But you do not, nor does anyone else, have the right to my body or my soul. That is called the sovereignty of man.”

    See, you can do hyperbole! I knew you could. Now, if you could only see the difference between this and lying you might make the first baby step back into the real world.

  143. Chris
    January 23, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    He isn’t even consistent. I see you quoting him saying:

    The value of these treatments and the risks are still totally up for debate as there have been ZERO true double blind placebo studies done.

    And we have told him time and time again that some have been done back before the Belmont Report. So he retorts on this thread at “January 20, 2012 at 5:31 am | #56″:

    Show me the studies that compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. Oops, forgot, THERE AREN’T ANY! Why? Pro-vaxers would say that sort of study is unethical. Yet that argument falls flat because there are thousand of people who do NOT vaccinate their children who’s health outcomes could be compared to vaccinated children yet no studies by the established and accepted research centers has been done. Why not?

    Of course, he was promptly given a study just like that, plus was told that would not be “double blind.” He is showing the behavior well described in this Salon article.

    You will also note that he spammed this thread with various articles, including that 2007 trope, as a response to me again asking some questions that he has refused to answer (at least one from another thread). He keeps demanding stuff from us, but refuses to provide valid answers to our requests, plus he pouts because we don’t like biased webpages that cherry pick and lie.

  144. Steve Michaels
    January 23, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    No there haven’t Chris. There have been concomitant and concurrent studies, but the KiGGs study admitted that it only had a small (read that statistically insignificant) number of unvaccinated children. When compared to a much larger group of unvaccinated children, the overall results support my position completely, however YOU are the one who chooses to ignore this. You claim that anti-vax sites should conduct their own studies and then summarily dismiss and ignore them when they do. Give me a break!

  145. Chris
    January 23, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Don’t you get? We really don’t care what you think. Haven’t you noticed that you have been told by many that your opinions are baseless and often just lies? Are you so clueless that you just read what we both wrote was essentially explaining that?

    I just pointed out that first you said that there could be a study with families who deliberately do not vaccinate, followed by you whining there were no double blind studies. Which are two different things.

    And gattarian called you a liar several times today.

    So really, why should we care what you think? You are clueless, whine when you don’t get the answers you want, refuse to answer questions that you don’t like (so exactly how does not vaccinating save money? we really want to know!), dismiss studies randomly but push cherry picked poorly done ones and pout because we don’t like your obviously bad website choices.

    Many of those websites are described in the Salon article (you do know that the blue letters are hyperlinks, right?) thus:

    Besides, as the Vaccine study shows, blogs and forums associated with the anti-vaccination movement are aggressive censors, swiftly deleting any comments that tout the benefits of vaccination.

    Here is how you were described over a year ago::.

    Again, readers will note that our arguments are “evidence demonstrates,” and that commenters like Steve Michaels’ argument is “I don’t believe you.” Or, “I don’t like your evidence, I like mine better.” His is a good approach for fact-twisters like Glenn Beck and people who want to believe there is a vaccine/autism link, it’s a bad approach for people who are interested in a fact bolstered by current science and evidence: that there is no link between vaccines and autism.
  146. January 24, 2012 at 1:40 am

    He isn’t consistent in anything except obtuseness. I have to admit there is a certain perverse aesthetic involved there. I wonder just how thick it really is.

  147. Chris
    January 24, 2012 at 1:55 am

    LOL

  148. Steve Michaels
    January 24, 2012 at 5:34 am

    Thank you, both of you for lowering the tone for all to see. You have no comeback to the KiGGS study juxtaposed against the statistically significant unvaccinated child survey which completely destroys your claims so you call me obtuse, you claim that I am so stupid as to not know what a hyperlink is and you choose to champion a source which has selectively chosen sites to paint a picture that is inaccurate. Well done, and kudos for showing that you have no rational, valid arguments and only name calling to fall back on…

  149. January 24, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Seriously, stevie, you are now displaying a profound misunderstanding of basic english.

    “You have no comeback to the KiGGS study juxtaposed against the statistically significant unvaccinated child survey which completely destroys your claims so you call me obtuse”
    The KiGGS study has a small sample size, but is indeed statistically useful because the participants were chosen using valid methods for matching participants in such a study. The internet survey you keep talking about was little more than a people magazine poll. One measured medically documented outcomes the other was an internet opinion poll. Besides all of which, the KIGGS study has primarily been presented to you in order to counter your claim that “THERE AREN’T ANY” such studies. See, when you claim 0 studies, showing even 1 is enough to disprove your assertion.

    You have been told all this before. The fact that you refuse to see the importance of it is yet another example of your obstinate obtuseness.

    The fact of the matter, stevie, is that you claimed that people were vaccinated at gun point when they clearly were not. You made a specific claim about objective reality which was patently false. My experience of your claims is precisely that. You make them, Someone examines them, and they turn out to be totally false, or at the very least so egregiously unsupported as to be indefensible. When you are called on your bullshit, you invariably disseminate further. You have yet to have an honest dialogue that I have seen.

    At this point, stevie, I would not believe you if you claimed that the sky was blue without peer reviewed reputably published documentation. Seriously, I know that sounds flippant, but I mean it.

  150. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 1:23 am

    Anyone who believes that we now have over 300,000 cases of Autism with only 50,000 of them able to attend school is not caused by our ever increaseing infusion of the mixure of genetically altered organisms for use in vaccines recombining in our own natural bacterial flora needs to go back to school.
    Or at least read the NIHreporter and pubmed for the ongoing research into the infectious organisms proteins that are now folding into not only our genes but with Agrobacteriums’ as well.
    This alone is causeing Morgellons to massively infect all the immune system depressed that are already blessed with their sticker of compliance of a stupid syndrome you got to fund and then allowed them to kill you with.
    As researchers around the globe tell us that what was once thought to be a singular prion protein is nothing more than a majik act of infectious antigens recombining in our own proteins to give us perpetual infections at the same time depressing the immune system to not make any antibodies so you get stuck with “A Syndrome of Unknown Origin”.
    How smart….In fact it was Brilliant!!!
    IT worked so well they then implemented the NVICP Black Box you must fit in knowing that it can take yrs. in some (Alzheimers) before it is allowed to spread because the elderly did not receive as many infectious proteins as our Autism kids now do in the name of protection…
    The only difference between Autism and Alzheimer, MS and ALS, Parkinsons and Arthritis—ect. etc. is the infections injected and acquired that fold in the proteins that transverse the neurons that give you perpetual hell on earth. And yes the science has proved it –read it.
    And they have known this since its introduction to decimate the populations in their right they bought to control. They have told us that Alzheimers alone has US in the red for the next 50 yrs. They are diagnosing MS now at one every 10 mins…
    Autism is now at one in 38 in Korea and 1 in 50 in some counties in the US….Of which they are diagnosing every 4 mins. and 4 out of 5 of them are boys.
    So how long is it going to take stupid to realize that in another 30 yrs. we will be raising someone else’s flag as intended? How many have sold this country and its people by lies of protection for profits when they should all be in jail instead of funding more death to poor countries with our billions we paid them to protect?
    Look up all the organisms/infections and prion research to know I tell you the truth. Our genes are not our own thanks to pig pharma and each antigen injected is one more passage to the elimination of man. And we know this because Morgellons is also infecting our bee’s in Colony Collapse Disorder and White Nose Bat Syndrome. Einstein told us if we did not protect the bee’s we would have but 4 yrs…And the science tells us now we will never have a vaccine for AIDS/TB/HIV/Malaria or any other for that matter that works.
    Does anyone see/hear/speak the truth anymore?

  151. Chris
    January 25, 2012 at 1:35 am

    Anyone who believes that we now have over 300,000 cases of Autism with only 50,000 of them able to attend school is not caused by our ever increaseing infusion of the mixure of genetically altered organisms for use in vaccines recombining in our own natural bacterial flora needs to go back to school.

    Citation needed.

    As researchers around the globe tell us that what was once thought to be a singular prion protein is nothing more than a majik act of infectious antigens recombining in our own proteins to give us perpetual infections at the same time depressing the immune system to not make any antibodies so you get stuck with “A Syndrome of Unknown Origin”.

    Citation needed.

    Autism is now at one in 38 in Korea and 1 in 50 in some counties in the US….Of which they are diagnosing every 4 mins. and 4 out of 5 of them are boys.

    Citations needed. More than one required, since you mentioned multiple countries.

    And we know this because Morgellons is also infecting our bee’s in Colony Collapse Disorder and White Nose Bat Syndrome.

    Citation needed.

    Does anyone see/hear/speak the truth anymore?

    Depends. How do we know what you wrote is true or not? You provided absolutely no supporting evidence. Why should we believe you? What makes you so special that we just need to take your word as “truth”?

    And you are going to have to prove you are special with some real evidence.

  152. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 2:13 am

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22233534

    icrob Cell Fact. 2012 Jan 10;11(1):6. [Epub ahead of print]
    A novel expression system for production of soluble prion proteins in E.coli.
    Abskharon RN, Ramboarina S, El Hassan H, Gad W, Apostol MI, Giachin G, Legname G, Steyaert J, Messens J, Soror SH, Wohlkonig A.
    Abstract

    ABSTRACT: Expression of eukaryotic proteins in Escherichia coli is challenging, especially when they contain disulfide bonds. Since the discovery of the prion protein (PrP) and its role in transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, the need to obtain large quantities of the recombinant protein for research purposes has been essential. Currently, production of recombinant PrP is achieved by refolding protocols.

    Here, we show that the co-expression of two different PrP with the human Quiescin Sulfhydryl OXidase (QSOX), a human chaperone with thiol/disulfide oxidase activity, in the cytoplasm of E. coli produces soluble recombinant PrP.

    The structural integrity of the soluble PrP has been confirmed by nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, demonstrating that properly folded PrP

    can be easily expressed in bacteria.

    Furthermore, the soluble recombinant PrP produced with this method can be used for functional and structural studies.
    ————————————-
    What bacteria? Where? Surely not gene swapping going on to cause all the syndromes in depressed immune systems cause by vaccines!!!

  153. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 2:15 am

    How many babies gut have to horrificly be infected before stupid does something to stop it? 100 a 1000? Give me a number so I won’t annoy you when the amount of money you spend fixing the people is more profitable than killing them.

  154. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 2:46 am

    You see folks—they lied for over 36 yrs. You cannot crystalize a lipid and in using genetically altered organisms that folded not only the infectious organisms genes into our own, they now fold Agrobacteriums as well. Here is where the lies should have stopped but it was allowed to continue for profits. HIV never killed anyone…And we know this because today they all live if they are afforded all the antibiotics they need to kill the infections and keep the cancers away and many are being cured with stem cells. Where before they just let them all die with antivirals they found to profit from which only suppress the immune system further….AIDS is Autism, MS, ALS, Parkinsons, Lupus, Alzheimers, GWS, CFS, ME, And many countries except those who fiercly protect profits are telling the truth.

    http://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=24890&news_item=5467

    Unfolding pathogenesis in Parkinson’s – Breakthrough suggests damaged proteins travel between cells
    19 January 2011
    —————————–
    Oh by the way—we have at least 5 citations of why the US does not need the new Syphilis test—after finding many asymptomatic students pos….The best is because all you parents will have to explain yourselves how yur child got Syphilis…Not AIDS…Because almost 40 yrs. later they still refuse to give us a blood test to detect the proteins…

    Go ask WHY?

  155. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 2:51 am

    Selling vaccine to poor countries to provide a market source does not make it morally right. Unless your one of the corporations that think its alright cos’ they are people too…..
    The UN does not work for the people and they never have. They are just as big a crooks as our Congress who now thanks to our President will be corraled.

  156. CanadianNurse
    January 25, 2012 at 6:52 am

    Good morning angry supporters of The Patriot Nurse.

    No one is debating your RIGHT to choose whether or not to vaccinate. But if you have the right to NOT vaccinate, then a patient – especially parents who will be giving birth to a vulnerable neonate under your care – should have the right to choose whether or not you act as their nurse.

    NO one is after TPN’s job. A science writer for a legitimate science zine contacted her work to verify her identity. Which is exactly what a responsible writer does before publication – verifies a source.

    Non-vaccinating nurses at other hospitals have to take isolation per-cautions(gloves, gown, mask). This is to protect them and protect the patients. Regardless of whether YOU think vaccines work – science sure thinks that they do, and the employers have a right and a duty to protect those under its care.

    TPN is a sham. She states in her video that saying this comes as a great cost to her as a nurse. If she so firmly believes in her anti-vaccination rhetoric – so much so that she would post it online AND STATE THAT SHE WAS A NURSE – then she should be well aware of the potential consequences.

    All of you crying “free speech” are being deceived. TPN has deleted EVERY SINGLE comment that was not entirely supportive of her. You can’t claim that her free speech is in jeopardy while she refuses that right to others.

    TPN make a video. A stupid video. In which she makes very very basic scientific errors. She was called to answer to those errors on her page, on this blog, on Orac’s blog and elsewhere. She refused to do so. She is not interested in having a dialogue. She had her little diatribe and that was that. NO ONE is so special that they can make sweeping, erroneous statements without recourse.

    I know that you anti-vaccination activists have a lot of other anti-vaccination friends online. But the fact of the matter is that 94% of people are still vaccinating. You’re a blip on the radar. You’re the new “trendy” thing to be against. But when it comes down to it, all but a handful of people are intelligent enough to realize that:

    1) there is NOT a global conspiracy of scientists and doctors trying to poison your children
    2) a few bad nurses or doctors do not discount the whole of the scientific method; nor are the opinions of a few more valid than the opinions of millions
    3) researching vaccines on Google is NOT equal to going to post-secondary education for 10+ years to be a physician, pediatrician, immunologist or what have you.

    TPN is not a martyr. She is a nurse who is expected to uphold the ideals and principles of her nursing organization and employer. And seeing as those things adhere to evidence-based medicine – and she doesn’t – she now has a problem. She brought it on herself. It was her choice not to vaccinate, and it their choice (and DUTY to the public) to deal with her how they see fit.

  157. Chris
    January 25, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    From that comment and also from above:

    Give me a number so I won’t annoy you when the amount of money you spend fixing the people is more profitable than killing them.

    You are now making a claim that preventing disease with vaccines is not as cost effective as treating for those diseases. You need to show us exactly how much more money it takes to buy and use vaccines, than it is to treat measles, pertussis, Hib, etc.

    In order to do that please answer some questions:

    The first involves opening up a pdf document and going to page 30 (just click on the link). Look at that table, and then tell us what the number is on the left of the word “vaccines.” Explain what it means.

    Now, open up this paper by clicking on its title: Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998. Please read it, and from the information answer a couple of questions:

    Tell us how every American dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine in 1994 affected medical costs and indirect societal costs. Did it bring more or less money to “Big Pharma”?

    A bit over twenty years ago what was the leading cause of childhood bacterial meningitis and postnatal mental retardation? What happened to that particular bacterial disease in the USA?

    When we are fully satisfied that you can actually open up a link and read it with full comprehension, you can come back and clearly explain how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

  158. January 25, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Anyone who believes that we now have over 300,000 cases of Autism with only 50,000 of them able to attend school is not caused by our ever increaseing infusion of the mixure of genetically altered organisms for use in vaccines recombining in our own natural bacterial flora needs to go back to school. Or at least read the NIHreporter and pubmed for the ongoing research into the infectious organisms proteins that are now folding into not only our genes but with Agrobacteriums’ as well.

    a) Proteins can’t ‘fold into’ genes. BIOL101 fail.
    b)The paper you linked to & quoted from is talking about getting Agrobacterium to express human proteins in a functional form. To be functional, many proteins need to be folded into their final form after they’ve been produced, & this can be difficult to achieve where the proteins are expressed in GMOs. The paper you cite is describing successful protein folding. It has absolutely nothing to do with vaccines or with humans acquiring prion infections.
    c) If you are that worried about acquiring ‘foreign’ DNA via the gut then I suggest you stop eating, since every meal is stuffed full of the stuff.

    the infections injected and acquired that fold in the proteins that transverse the neurons

    SRY wut?

    And yes the science has proved it –read it.

    I seriously doubt it, but since you’ve failed to provide any citation for this claim it’s impossible to tell.

  159. Silvermaven
    January 25, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120124/Address-drug-resistant-pathogens-as-part-of-next-stage-of-global-health.aspx

    Address drug resistant pathogens as part of ‘next stage of global health’
    Published on January 24, 2012 at 8:24 AM ·
    This post in the Foreign Policy Association blog discusses reports from earlier this month of “an emerging strain of ‘totally drug-resistant’ tuberculosis (TDR-TB)” in India, which the Indian government last week denied, “arguing that the 12 cases were in fact extensively drug resistant (XDR).” The blog states, “Whether or not it’s fair to use the TDR moniker, drug resistance is a serious, emerging issue that may very well define the next stage of global health,” concluding, “We are reaching a turning point, one at which some drug resistant pathogens are on the cusp of shifting from a handful of cases, an endemic, to a bigger, epidemic or even pandemic problem. Now is the time to initiate discussions on what the global community will do to stem drug resistance”
    ——————————————

    http://www.ministerial-leadership.org/blog/voices-ownership-us-government-officials

    Those are hard-earned dollars, and if there is one egregious act, it ends up damaging the whole system. “

    “That is the world we sit in. Are we serious (about country ownership)? Yes. Is there a commitment to change? Yes, there is. You can see in Mali how US teams have been engaged with the government, how the teams are working with the government’s national plan. “

    “As far as engaging our big implementing partners, … it’s not that we don’t need them, but they need to do a different job. By building that capacity in local institutions, we are trying to change our culture. At the end of the day, thousands of US government employees are making these day-to-day decisions, working to build in different skill bases, and the teams recognize that country ownership is how we will be measured.”

    “…We need to be bringing together ministers, up to the Hill directly, with our representatives, so they have a sense of what is country ownership. … This is also about putting the stories out there, not just success stories, but also about all the learning that goes on. The American taxpayer needs to see the value of how the resources are being used.”
    ————————————-
    These idiots speak of Ownership—as if the Israeli’s have a right to ownership. We had no right to ownership of this land before we stole it from the real Americans, we had no right to ownership when one man declared ownership over another man’s life. And they have no ownership of the land of the people when they will not protect the people that must live upon that land. They own nothing. Stewardship is the inheritance of man. Not how much money they can make and take with them…Because they can’t as long as they lie each and every day about where AIDS/LYME/MadCow came from to massively infect the people to continue profits for all the junk they could make in preparation for wars, and the decimation of man to steal anothers right out from under him….God be with the people. Not just the people who believe they most deserve it….

  160. Nathan
    January 25, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Wow, it’s nice to have comments that are full of such crazy that they don’t need correction. They can just sit there and show everyone how crazy the other side gets.

  161. January 25, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    The Big Pharma Grand Conspiracy is always one of my favorites. Since the anti-vaccination gang lacks any evidence to support any of its points, it’s always good to default to the conspiracy logical fallacy, because it’s almost impossible to disprove, even without any evidence. That old disproving the negative thing. There’s an old adage about science. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The evidence supporting the use of vaccines and their safety exceeds the extraordinary level. What do the anti-vax people have? Precious little, hardly even ordinary. Pathetic.

    Evolution denialists, climate change denialists and vaccine denialists all use the same language and the same methodology (such as it is).

  162. January 26, 2012 at 1:21 am

    Silvermaver, sorry but your strawman arguments show a remarkable lack of understanding of this issue. The World Health Organization has done an amazing, and documented, job of reducing all kinds of diseases in the so-called third world. The vaccine companies also contribute or sell at cost most of those vaccines.

    What the UN or Congress has to do with this story is your strawman. Good luck with that.

  163. January 26, 2012 at 1:25 am

    Chris, good luck. Steve is really just using rhetoric rather than science and evidence to support his case. I usually get very bored with those types of discussion, because Steve and his ilk depend upon their beliefs not on facts. Lucky for us, most people are rational and get their vaccinations. Remember, the anti-vax gang play the same cards as the climate change denialists…yell and scream about conspiracies, and avoid a discussion about the evidence.

  164. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 3:14 am

    I know he is a lost cause. All I hope to achieve is pointing out that he is just full of hot air. Here are some of his best bits, though not the one where he declared that there were no vaccines for bacterial diseases (that was a conversation with someone else).

    He is kind of like a cat toy that we can bat around with actual evidence. It is entertaining to see how many ways he can avoid answering questions that go against his beliefs. And unlike Silvermaven, he is mostly coherent. Silvermaven is not really worth bothering with, since he/she is in a whole other realm of crazy (hence the reading comprehension test that Michaels is presently ignoring).

  165. Sallie
    January 26, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Here is the most informative video I have seen about vaccines.

    All nurses must watch, “Lethal Injection: The Story of Vaccination”.

  166. January 26, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    It is a threat to our health when doctors and nurses don’t keep up to date on science appearing in the peer reviewed literature and only accept what the CDC, FDA, AMA and AAP distill down for them. Those organizations are extremely biased toward interventions promoted by the pharmaceutical companies, who fund and conduct virtually all of the research asserting safety. The entire issue of this months medical journal LUPUS is devoted to autoimmune issues caused by aluminum adjuvants, especially those in pediatric populations. There is considerable scientific evidence that vaccine ingredients, preparations, combinations and schedules are causing neurological and immune system dysfunction but this evidence is largely hidden from the general public, ignored by the media, and unread by medical professionals. The major flaw in the analysis above, is that government vaccine safety studies are conducted using active placebos and active controls, and studies do not follow patients for the duration that the vaccine is biologically active and reactive in the body, they do not study the biological and genetic changes that take place after vaccination, they do not compare health outcomes of fully vaccinated children to health outcomes of unvaccinated children, and they do not study effectiveness, which is different from efficacy. Until these studies are done, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that vaccines have been proven safe.

  167. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Oooooh, it is evidence by video! Isn’t that special.

    Perhaps you should make it easier by just posing the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that any particular vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. For instance, just list those that show that any MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

  168. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Citation required for everything.

    they do not compare health outcomes of fully vaccinated children to health outcomes of unvaccinated children,

    Please describe exactly how that would be done and comply with the Belmont Report.

  169. January 26, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Here is information derived from government statistical databases published in the Journal of Pediatrics regarding whether or not vaccines are responsible for the impressive decline in mortality in the 20th century for many infectious diseases: http://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/us-deaths-1900-1965.gif

    If other interventions that are less toxic and less harmful and less manipulative of the immune system work well at preventing disease such as handwashing, good nutrition, sanitation, improved sterilization of dental tools which was scientifically linked to spreading AIDS and other blood and saliva transmissible infectious diseases, should we constantly berate those who question the adequacy and validity of science that NVAC, WHO and IOM all state is inadequate to detect safety issues?

    Can all people eat peanuts? Can all people take Tylenol? Will all people react the same way to vaccines? We are not one-size-fits all people and some will react worse than others. It is immoral to say that some should be sacrificed for the benefit of others. How do we decide who will be sacrificed? The Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System is flawed not because it overcounts reactions, but because it undercounts them by as much as 90%. Furthermore, no systematic protocol for evaluating vaccine injuries has ever been established other than denial.

    Vaccines were invented before we had even the most basic and rudimentary methods of identifying viruses or analyzing the impact on the immune system. There is much we do not know. Scientific principles that were accepted as fact 100 years ago are laughed at today. Science is not static – it evolves with new discoveries. Creating a climate where science cannot be questioned hampers our progress. One fact remains which is even though diseases had substantially declined before the vaccines to treat them became available, since vaccines have been given in increasing numbers, more and more children are chronically ill and disabled. We also have somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million autistic children that did not exist 30 years ago. This is a far greater problem than all of the infectious diseases we vaccinate for combined and we need to get real about figuring out a way to identify and solve this problem before it destroys our country. Academic Pediatrics recently released a study reporting that 54% of all children have a chronic health condition.

  170. January 26, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    First, vaccines should be studied in a primate model. Newborn primates should be vaccinated with all recommended vaccines at the same age and weight adjusted schedule and before and after each vaccine, blood, urine and stool taken and analyzed for changes in biomarkers and genes. Primates should be evaluated for cognitive, motor and social/emotional behaviors. Inflammatory markers, immune markers and other markers for common chronic diseases that have become epidemic in the last 30 years should be analyzed. The animals should be sacrificed at a 5 – 7 year interval and their brains and CNS should be examined for changes. Their intestines should be examined for changes, as well as skin, nerves, lungs, and other major organ systems. These results should be compared to controls that receive inert placebos. The study should be blinded and conducted by independent investigators with no government or industry affiliations. If the vaccines do not pass these tests, then they should not be administered to newborns and infants.
    More research on carcinogenicity, fertility, age related neurological disease as well as effectiveness-do the vaccines actually prevent the diseases they are designed to prevent?

  171. January 26, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Could you supply some “real ” data on those who were disabled by vaccine preventable diseases? These figures are probably a complete unknown to most people and would provide an accurate basis for this discussion. These should be scientifically proven lab confirmed cases rather than lumped cases as is often done with diseases – like influenza.

  172. Nathan
    January 26, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Wow. And you have a reliable monkey model for all this human pathology, do you? And how many tens of thousands of monkeys do you think need to be sacrificed in these studies to have sufficient power to reliably detect problems? And you are okay with letting people die from the vaccine preventable diseases while these long-term primate studies are underway?

    do the vaccines actually prevent the diseases they are designed to prevent?

    Yes. There is quite a lot of research on that BTW.

  173. Steve Michaels
    January 26, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Amazing how you cannot accept anything you don’t like. If you disagree with the video, prove it. Come up with studies that aren’t able to be debunked. Something else you have difficulty with.

  174. Steve Michaels
    January 26, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    And when you inject a parachute based on unsound research let me know. Otherwise, your point is completely irrelevant. If you think that biological function is comparable to mechanical design, then you have got more than vaccines to worry about.

  175. January 26, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Come up with studies that aren’t able to be debunked.
    That’s a bit rich coming from the anti-vaccination perspective, where random, non-controlled, unscientific telephone polls are held up as ‘evidence’.

  176. January 26, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    I rather think you’ve missed my point entirely. Disappointing, but not entirely surprising.

  177. Steve Michaels
    January 26, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    No alison, I haven’t ‘missed the point’. You, like Chris, go for the quippy sound bite and completely ignore information provided. Your parachute analogy is completely irrelevant, but it sounds good. Chris provided a link on the other TPN post trying to prove that vaccines save money. A simple cursory examination showed that his evidence supported me more than him. Has he commented? No. Not there anyway. He has just gone off attacking me with ad hominems elsewhere on this site. I suppose it makes him feel better, but it also shows the true colors. When you can’t refute, attack. Funny, that is what pro-vaxers accuse anti-vaxers of doing. If you have something substantive to say for or against my arguments, I am more than willing to listen, but sound bites don’t count.

  178. January 26, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    You’re not very good at metaphor, are you?

    a) parachutes have been shown to work for the vast majority of those who get the opportunity to deploy them. Ditto vaccination.

    b) because of this it would be unethical in the extreme to now require double-blinded, randomised controlled trials of parachute use. Ditto vaccination – although in the latter case comparisons of vaccinated & unvaccinated children have been done, despite your claims to the contrary. As Chris pointed out, you have repeatedly said that no such trials have been performed. I’ve pointed you at one (& I gather others have also given you this info). This negates your claim.

    c) sometimes parachutes fail; they are not 100% effective. Ditto vaccination – and those in favour of vaccination have never claimed otherwise.

  179. Steve Michaels
    January 26, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    alison :
    You’re not very good at metaphor, are you?
    a) parachutes have been shown to work for the vast majority of those who get the opportunity to deploy them. Ditto vaccination.
    b) because of this it would be unethical in the extreme to now require double-blinded, randomised controlled trials of parachute use. Ditto vaccination – although in the latter case comparisons of vaccinated & unvaccinated children have been done, despite your claims to the contrary. As Chris pointed out, you have repeatedly said that no such trials have been performed. I’ve pointed you at one (& I gather others have also given you this info). This negates your claim.
    c) sometimes parachutes fail; they are not 100% effective. Ditto vaccination – and those in favour of vaccination have never claimed otherwise.

    If you can’t see the difference between a physical mechanism and a biological function/reaction then there really is not point discussing it further with you. You are attempting to drawn an invalid comparison between mutually exclusive examples. It’s a bit like saying, sometimes sinks leak and sometimes they don’t, like vaccines sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t.??? I am not being mean, but you really don’t make any sense with this one.

  180. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    Here is where I told him about a placebo control vaccine study over a year ago:

    Here is a study that used a placebo group for a measles vaccine: Efficacy of Measles Vaccine. Look at the control group. Do you see that there is a column for “deaths” in Table 1?

    So if Mr. Michaels still claims that he has never been shown a placebo controlled vaccine study he either has a very short memory, or is lying. Or has a very severe problem with reading comprehension.

  181. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    That is rich coming from someone who has not posted any real data. The data is large and extensive, but there is this paper that I have posted several times, Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998. It is a review, just go to the references to read about the impacts on the diseases.

    There is also this paper, The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review, that is specific to measles.

    Now, what you need to do is provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that the MMR is more dangerous than measles.

  182. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    This was for vaccinexchange, who is requesting data after not posting anything but a website that is known for always being wrong.

  183. Chris
    January 26, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Mr. Michaels:

    Chris provided a link on the other TPN post trying to prove that vaccines save money. A simple cursory examination showed that his evidence supported me more than him. Has he commented?

    And what link was that? How did it support you? And what should I comment on (especially since this has been a busy day)?

    Did I miss your answer to the following question:

    Have you read “Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998″ yet? Tell us how every American dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine in 1994 affected medical costs and indirect societal costs? Did it bring more or less money to “Big Pharma”?

  184. January 26, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    I especially like how he asks for good studies in order to refute an internet video. Its funny that he has one standard of evidence for others.

  185. January 26, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    No, stevie, the comparison is between how we know things and why we believe things. Both parachutes and vaccines have long histories of verified repeated experiments to back them up. Such a long history that it is unethical to repeat those tests on people.

    At least not without some VERY powerful reason to do so. If, for instance, reliable evidence were presented that vaccine present more danger than the diseases they prevent, That would be worth investigating. Just as if there were reliable evidence that parachutes don’t work as well with people as they do with dead weight, there might be good reason to investigate that. But the key word there is “reliable”. The vast majority of your sites don’t count.

    Seriously. To my memory not a single one of your sites qualifies as reliable.

  186. January 26, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Again, the comparison was not between mechanical and bilogical systems. It was between well established facts and well established facts.

  187. Steve Michaels
    January 27, 2012 at 3:14 am

    Do you even read your own sources? You are very good at proving two things. One, your studies generally undermine your claims, and two, you parrot this stuff and either don’t read it or don’t understand it. I truly am not sure which.

    Now about your study:

    It is comparative not controlled. From your source:

    “One group received measles vaccine, the first 120 without gamma globulin,and the remainder with gamma globulin a ta dosageof0-02ml., equivalent to 40units of measles antibody,per pound of body weight. I thas been found that this dosage of gamma globulin represents approximately the amount needed to SUPPRESS POST-VACCINATION REACTIONS”. (emphasis added)

    The chart, Table 1, then goes on to describe the vaccine and control group. And, lo and behold, they BOTH received vaccines. The control group got the pertussis/tetanus vaccine and the subject group cot the measles vaccine. That, my friend, is comparative. In fact, it would have been better if the subject group ALSO received the pertussis/tetanus vaccine. As this study was conducted, the conclusion could be drawn that perussis/tetanus vaccines exacerbate measles to the point of being fatal. This study also admits in several places that there are severe reactions to measles vaccines, and in fact does NOT study long term reactions/injuries at all. This is a study about efficacy, not safety. From your source again:

    “In the follow-up period all children with ‘measles-like’ illness were seen, as far as possible,by one of us.The diagnosis of measles was at times dificult. Illnesses resembling measles were frequently seen; facilities for serological confirmation of the diagnosis were not available.”

    Do you understand this statement? Know one actually KNOWS how many cases of measles there were in EITHER group because it was all clinical diagnosis. It is extremely easy to simply discount all “measles-like” illnesses as vaccine reactions in the subject group, thus ignoring the chance that the vaccine actually INDUCED measles but was clinically dismissed.

    The second portion is actually about weight gain after vaccination, not safety. In fact, the following statement shows how rhetoric and propaganda have changed the mindset, but not the facts, about vaccine safety:

    “Carrying out blind controlled trials in any community with a vaccine which may produce a severe reaction carries a considerable moral responsibility.”

    Back then the moral issue was plainly the danger of the vaccine itself. Now you and yours pretend that vaccine danger does not even exist. Thank you again for helping prove my points.

  188. Steve Michaels
    January 27, 2012 at 6:32 am

    No, gattie. As shown by Chris’ attempt at proving your point about your claims about safety, they haven’t really been done. Some studies pay lip service and that’s it.

  189. Chris
    January 27, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Do you even read your own sources? You are very good at proving two things. One, your studies generally undermine your claims, and two, you parrot this stuff and either don’t read it or don’t understand it. I truly am not sure which.

    Yes, I read the 1960s measles study where African children in the group that did not get the measles vaccine died from measles. I believe it is you who is ignoring the dangers of the disease. And who is moving the goalpost.

    Back then the moral issue was plainly the danger of the vaccine itself. Now you and yours pretend that vaccine danger does not even exist. Thank you again for helping prove my points.

    Straw man argument. I have never said the vaccine is 100% safe, and do acknowledge their are risks. You are the one ignoring the fact that measles is several of orders of magnitude more dangerous than the vaccine.

    Now again, please tell us how exactly not vaccinating will actually save health care costs and not cause harm to children.

  190. Chris
    January 27, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    vaccinexchange:

    Here is information derived from government statistical databases published in the Journal of Pediatrics regarding whether or not vaccines are responsible for the impressive decline in mortality in the 20th century for many infectious diseases…

    So what? That is just one factor. Why are you ignoring morbidity? What about the people who got the diseases and suffered permanent disability? What about the costs of the hospital care to keep people from dying from diphtheria, pertussis and measles?

    Go to my comment at “January 18, 2012 at 1:53 am |156″, and answer my question on what caused the morbidity (rate) of measles to drop 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA.

    What you need to do now is explain exactly how the DTaP and Tdap vaccines are more dangerous than diphtheria and pertussis. And how the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles. I posted to review papers on the effects of the diseases, and one specifically on measles (The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review). Please post the title, journal, and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your answers. Show the comparative risks.

    Here is some other data for you to use (you can easily find the full papers on PubMed, I expect the same level of evidence from you):

    Emerg Infect Dis. 1998 Oct-Dec;4(4):539-50.
    Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease.

    J Infect Dis. 2000 Feb;181 Suppl 1:S10-22.
    Successful control of epidemic diphtheria in the states of the Former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics: lessons learned.

    Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):356-61.
    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story.

    JAMA. 2007 Nov 14;298(18):2155-63.
    Historical comparisons of morbidity and mortality for vaccine-preventable diseases in the United States.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.
    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.
    Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.

  191. Teri
    January 27, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    The Patriot Nurse is just referring to this as her opinion so as to not say everyone should do as she says or that she is the authority, she is just stating what she would do and she goes on to say that she thinks people should be able to make up their own mind, that is just what she would do. That’s the difference between pro-vaxers and vaccine choice people. The choice people take the position of live and let live. The pro-vaxers take the position that they are right and they don’t even want to hear otherwise, don’t want to look, not interested, their mind’s made up, there is no further science to look into, not interested in new information, new research, other possibilities, etc. That’s not science, that’s a religion.

  192. January 27, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    If the Patriot Nurse was just presenting her opinion, why did she identify herself as a nurse? If she was just some smuck on YouTube presenting her opinion, nobody would really care. It is the use of her professional association that crosses the line.

    Furthermore, what science has been presented by the anti-vaccine side that discredits the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks, Teri?

    Studies on vaccines are printed every single day. Scientists continue to investigate the safety and efficiency of vaccines and develop new vaccines. As a scientist, I’m always interested in new research.

    I think you are confusing the two sides. It is the anti-vax side that isn’t interested in the science that shows their position to be wrong. There is no other possibility except “vaccines are evil”. The Patriot Nurse certainly didn’t present any science to support her opinion.

    And of course the anti-vax people like it when other people vaccinate. It allows them to reduce the risk of their decision by hiding in the herd. Sadly, they fail to realize that their position jeopardizes their health, which is really the great irony of the anti-vax movement.

  193. January 28, 2012 at 1:35 am

    Except that this is simply another example of you lying. I am still amazed that you accept things like natural news as evidence (even or especially when it lies blatantly) but completely disregard hundreds of years of solid science simply due to rumors.

  194. Teri
    January 28, 2012 at 1:54 am

    And of course the anti-vax people like it when other people vaccinate. It allows them to reduce the risk of their decision by hiding in the herd. Sadly, they fail to realize that their position jeopardizes their health, which is really the great irony of the anti-vax movement.

    No the irony is actually that you think anti-vaxers would knowingly decline something if they thought declining it would jeopardize their health while secretly trying to stay well through the herd of people who vaccinate. Doesn’t that sound ubsurd? That herd immunity thing is just something the pro-vax people say and it’s like a broken record.
    Bottom line is there are two camps of people, those who believe in vaccines and those who don’t (and maybe some in the middle). But regardless, the “protected” pro-vax people needn’t worry about the unvaxed, afterall, isn’t that what you take a vaccine for…? to protect yourself? Since the vaccines work so well you should feel safe around the unvaccinated.

  195. Teri
    January 28, 2012 at 1:58 am

    the first paragraph in my post above was a quote from another commenter, but it appears as if the whole comment was mine. My reply starts the 2nd paragraph down.

  196. Kelly
    January 28, 2012 at 10:20 am

    No vaccine is 100% effective Teri, but an unvaccinated person is much more likely to contract and spread the disease. The best protection comes from having previous exposure via the vaccine and not encountering the disease in the first place.

    The reason the statement is ironic, Teri, is that anti-vaxers don’t know that they are jeopardizing their health. That is why it is incredibly sad. They go on about how informed they are, when in reality they are pretty ignorant, like yourself.

    Herd immunity is real, Teri. It is what is protecting ant–vaxers for some of the vaccine-preventable diseases. Just because you deny that, doesn’t make it less true.

  197. Katie Beecher
    January 29, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    My mother used to be a nurse until she got a flu shot three years ago. Now she is completely paralyzed and can’t even sit up or feed herself. My mother was told that vaccines are safe, just like all of you are saying, but that is a lie. Vaccines aren’t safe. I have met thousands of other people that the same thing has happened to. The government doesn’t even acknowledge that what happened to her is a side effect. WAKE UP nurses! Vaccines are dangerous. This is a video about my mother. She would like you all to watch it. She used to be a nursing professor but now this is the only thing she can teach. She doesn’t want what happened to her to happen to anyone else. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRcZZROphLM

  198. Steve Michaels
    January 29, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Sorry about your mother Katie. Just wait until Chris, Nathan and maybe Kelly come on here and start ‘demanding’ proof that the vaccine was to blame. They all love to pay lip service to the fact that vaccines are not safe ‘in theory’, but they deny every case that is brought to their attention. A good friend of mine suffered complete paralysis that took over 6 months to recover from immediately following a flu jab back in 2007. Guess what? Everyone claimed that is wasn’t the vaccine. In fact, her doctor recommended that she receive the H1N1 shot in 2009 even though she had such a reaction previously.

  199. wona
    January 29, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    My son was injured by vaccines…he was healthy and speaking 2 languages..now? severely what the establishment has named Autisitc.!….i have researched ever since (4 years) into all of it.vaccines are unsafe, and complete nonsense ( a babies immune system is not effective for at least 2 years)…its all about money, and doctors and nurses, are, in general as brainwashed as the rest…….i have seen online more than (est) 2000 parents ,with the same issue..and that is only me (seeing the 2000) how many more are there? i know on the vaccine injury sites theres absolutely thousands ..wake up people before its too late..our children are being hurt for profit and we choose to ignore whats right infront of our faces..SIDS…too, there is evidence to suggest its a vaccine reaction. i just cant understand why people keep arguing the points when to me its plainly obvious ,even without seeing it happen with my own two eyes.

  200. January 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Vaccines are the main cause of Autism due to accumulative damage from the Hep B, MMR & DPT shots, leading to Ischemia (singing of neural pathways from toxic overload which prevents vital oxygen from reaching brain, literally inhibiting normal development). Anaphylaxis, system-wide allergic & functional breakdown & Encephalitis, inflammation of brain resulting from vaccine derived heavy metal sludge toxicity.
    I saw damage happen with my own eyes..people can dispute all they like..but did you notice how the ones disputing the evidence of witnessing events aswell as scientific facts that explain damage from autism to sids.,are all people who have mostly *not witnessed a child die,regress,develop allergies to peanuts etc ( an unmaned ingredient in the first shots) or struggle with eating (if they eat at all.! ) terrible bowel and gut pain after a vaccine..

  201. Nathan
    January 29, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Vaccines are the main cause of Autism due to accumulative damage from the Hep B, MMR & DPT shots, leading to Ischemia (singing of neural pathways from toxic overload which prevents vital oxygen from reaching brain, literally inhibiting normal development). Anaphylaxis, system-wide allergic & functional breakdown & Encephalitis, inflammation of brain resulting from vaccine derived heavy metal sludge toxicity.

    That’s a lot of scientific terms strung together. You have some science to back up this hypothesis? Some that overshadows the dozens of studies that show no association between vaccines and autism?

    did you notice how the ones disputing the evidence of witnessing events aswell as scientific facts that explain damage from autism to sids.,are all people who have mostly *not witnessed a child die,regress,develop allergies to peanuts etc ( an unmaned ingredient in the first shots) or struggle with eating (if they eat at all.! ) terrible bowel and gut pain after a vaccine..

    If they had, how would it change the scientific facts of which you speak? Is the science supposed to change based on your personal experience? And what does “all people who have mostly not” mean?

  202. Nathan
    January 29, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    The following statements need evidence in the form of a link to a reliable source.

    1.) a babies immune system is not effective for at least 2 years

    2.) its all about money

    3.) doctors and nurses, are, in general as brainwashed as the rest

    4.) SIDS…too, there is evidence to suggest its a vaccine reaction.

    i just cant understand why people keep arguing the points when to me its plainly obvious ,even without seeing it happen with my own two eyes.

    To me, a person who has watched a child die from a vaccine preventable disease, it is plainly obvious that the opposite is the case, that vaccines are safe and save lives. To solve our dilemma, we must go to the science.

    Oh. The science agrees with me. As do all the experts in the world who know more about the topic than either one of us.

  203. Ashley
    January 30, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    My son was vaccine injured so i find it very disturbing and heartbreaking that you push this under the rug and continue to let people think that a medical procedure is 100% safe for 100% of the population. If you are a parent and you are reading this i URGE you to do the research for yourself and make an EDUCATED decision. Be your own advocate! Keep in mind, I have Nothing to gain by posting this. Research both sides before you vaccinate!

  204. Chris
    January 30, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    My son was injured while very sick with a now vaccine preventable disease. That is why a advocate against diseases. I am not a bit fan of children suffering from illnesses, especially when they end up in the hospital (something I am much too familiar with).

    Since you have researched both sides, can you tell us the what the risk is for measles versus that of the MMR vaccine? Or perhaps pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria compared to either the DTaP or Tdap vaccines?

    Also, please tell us where this blog said “a medical procedure is 100% safe for 100% of the population.” Just post the title and date of the article on this site. Thank you.

  205. Ashley
    January 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    How many vaccines did you have as a child?… Your ok right? Still alive i assume.. I had 10. so how many vaccines did they give your mom? Your grandma? …..how many vaccines are they going to give your baby throughout childhood according to the schedule? .. 36-38. I guarentee you didnt get that many vaccines and youre alive and kicking! Just think about it. ..and by chance do you remember getting a paper when your kid was vaccinated with a bunch of things to look out for?? Now why in earth would they do that if vaccines are 100% safe? your kid was fine after vaccines …that really doesnt mean squat. nothing is 100% safe for 100% of the population. Its like allergies.. Just because your kid can handle vaccines doesnt mean someone elses kids can. And since im on the subject did you know the amish are not vaccinated? We live in a little town and there are hoards of old amish men and women.. How on earth are they still alive?!! Its a miracle! They all just must be super lucky!! Since your a parent and probably keep up with the cdc.. Dont you find it odd that julie gerberding previously from the cdc , is now the head of the vaccine division at merck? Hows about paul profit er uh i mean paul offit? The people who are telling you vaccines are safe are the same people who get paid because of vaccines. These parents who are talking about their kids vaccine injurys have absolutely nothing to gain other than being ridiculed for something they watched happen.

  206. Chris
    January 30, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Since I was an Army brat I received vaccinations for smallpox, polio, pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, typhus, typhoid and yellow fever. Which ones of those did you get? I actually had mumps twice, and almost died from influenza when I was eight years old. A neighbor had a daughter who was deaf because of Congenital Rubella Syndrome. My kid was taken to the hospital because of seizures suffered while sick with a now vaccine preventable disease.

    As far as my grandmother, yes she lived. Though both of her brothers died before age ten. So you are going to have do a bit better than play the “they are okay game”, because the the others are in cemeteries or permanently disabled.

    Now answer my questions: Give us the actual risks of the vaccines versus the diseases. Show us exactly how treating measles is more cost effective than preventing measles. You can start by reading The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review and learning how it is such a fun and safe disease. Do tell us if the MMR vaccine causes the same amount of pneumonia and encephalitis.

    We live in a little town and there are hoards of old amish men and women

    So what? How many of their siblings are still alive? And what about the numbers of children born in Maple Sugar Urine Syndrome and forms of epilepsy common with their small gene pool? You should see http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/CSC/Research.html , it specializes in the Amish of Lancaster County.

  207. January 31, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Dear pro-vaxers, welcome to vaccinate yourselves and your kids over and over again – but read this first:

    http://vactruth.com/2012/01/21/fly-in-my-vaccine-soup

  208. January 31, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Provaxers – welcome to vaccinate yourselves and your kids over and over again if that makes you happy, but please read this first:

    http://vactruth.com/2012/01/21/fly-in-my-vaccine-soup

  209. Chris
  210. Chris
    January 31, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    So exactly how are actually getting measles and pertussis safer than the vaccines. In your own words provide the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that the MMR, DTaP or Tdap are more dangerous than any of the six diseases they prevent.

  211. Nathan
    January 31, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    This “rebuttal” deconstruction could use some work. For an example, I’d like to look at Point #2. The post claims (in response to Canadian nurse’s claim “b”),

    “b) The gut does NOT stop mercury from reaching the bloodstream.”

    This is true but if we look at the science when comparing ingestion of methyl mercury and injection of ethyl mercury we see that the ethyl mercury monkeys had higher levels of mercury in the brain and organs when compared to the methyl mercury monkeys.

    The blog then links to Burbacher et al.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/

    And this quote is pulled from it:

    total Hg is much higher in the thimerosal monkeys then in the MeHg monkeys”

    Let’s take a look at the context of that quote. In totality, it says,

    It is relevant to note that the kidney-to-blood concentration gradient of total Hg is much higher in the thimerosal monkeys than in the MeHg monkeys (mean ± SE, 95.1 ± 10 vs. 5.8 ± 0.6).

    Whoops. That’s some pretty devious cherry-picking, to start mid-sentence and completely change the meaning of the statement.

    In fact it is not true that “higher levels of mercury in the brain and organs when compared to the methyl mercury monkeys.” Compared to MeHg monkeys, it was much lower. Here are some other quotes from the Burbacher study (they are quoted in their entirety, BTW).

    Brain concentrations of total Hg were significantly lower by approximately 3-fold for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys when compared with the MeHg infants, whereas the average brain-to-blood concentration ratio was slightly higher for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (3.5 ± 0.5 vs. 2.5 ± 0.3).

    The total Hg was much less in thimerosal exposed monkeys compared to ingested MeHg monkeys. The brain/blood ratio was less in the MeHg group, but that would be affected by faster clearing from the blood in the thimerosal group. This is discussed here in the full text:

    A much lower brain concentration of total Hg was observed in the thimerosal monkeys compared with the MeHg monkeys, that is, a 3- to 4-fold difference for an equivalent exposure of Hg. Moreover, total Hg is cleared much more rapidly from the brain after thimerosal than after MeHg exposure (24 vs. 60 days). It appears that the difference in brain Hg exposure between thimerosal and MeHg is largely driven by their differences in systemic disposition kinetics (i.e., the blood level). The average brain-to-blood partitioning ratio of total Hg in the thimerosal group was slightly higher than that in the MeHg group (3.5 ± 0.5 vs. 2.5 ± 0.3, t-test, p = 0.11). Thus, the brain-to-blood Hg concentration ratio established for MeHg will underestimate the amount of Hg in the brain after exposure to thimerosal.

    I found many similar errors on a quick readthrough of this deconstruction, and I noted that the commenter “Jon” had done a good job of bringing most of them to your attention. I do agree that the argument over whether a mercury-containing compound is or is not actually mercury is an irritating semantic argument, though I understand why it is used – to combat the idea perpetuated by the antivaccine movement that thimerosal that all forms of mercury are equal. However, your use of sources put that semantic discussion to rest quite well.

    Still, most of the rest of it suffers from poor research and obvious bias. Also, I’m wondering why the Patriot Nurse can’t do her own rebuttal work.

  212. Chris
    January 31, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    I see you referenced Ratajczak. She does some serious cherry picking, and of course, how can we forget the homologous recombinaltion tiniker!

    I commend you in letting Jon comment on your blog.

    I see you do link to the FDA list of pediatric vaccines and their levels of thimerosal. It is worth while noting that half of the influenza vaccines on that list do not contain thimerosal. Many states, like California, require children and pregnant women to only get thimerosal free vaccines.

    I think you are disingenuous by responding Canadian Nurse’s comment that breastfeeding does not confer immunity to a pathogen the mother never had by saying: “Are you against breast feeding???”. That was unfair to her because that was not what she was saying. I will also add from personal experience that even though I had chicken pox as a child, my baby still got it from her brother. Since she was reluctant to start solid food so at six months she was only getting breast milk. While I am a fan of breastfeeding, with all three kids getting breast milk for at least a year (two of them until they were older than two), I am not convinced that breast feeding is as protective as many claim it is.

    (I was very upset over how my baby suffered when she could not sleep when covered by itchy pox! I now believe those who claim children should get chicken pox are cruel.)

    You end by saying:

    Vaccines carry risk of death and disability and I would also encourage people to speak to their physicians about vaccine risks and whether or not certain vaccines shouldn’t be administered at all.

    Please share how the risks of the vaccines compare to the risks of measles and pertussis, two diseases that are coming back to the USA. Please do not link to your blog, just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show that the MMR, DTaP or Tdap are all more dangerous than the diseases. You will see I have posted many studies in this thread on the effects of the diseases, from the effects of pertussis in several countries, the diphtheria epidemic in the former Soviet countries, and the clinical significance of measles. You can use those to gather information on the risks of the diseases. Thank you in advance.

  213. Nathan
    February 1, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Great points, Chris. It’s full of holes, large and small.

    Also jumping out at me was this: “Thimerosal was removed from two vaccines (HIB and HepB) and added back into the schedule via multi-dose flu vaccines and meningococcal.”

    Meningococcal vaccine is the more egregious error here. It is not routinely recommended for infants. The conjugate vaccine may be given in high risk situations, and it is thimerosal free. The polysaccharide vaccine has thimerosal in the multi-dose vials but is for people 55 and up. And then, of course, there are the influenza vaccine issues (half the supply is T-free, its uptake is lower than routine shots, less doses and given later, etc). And correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Tripedia DTaP vaccine was full-thimerosal until 2001, as was Pedvax HIB vaccine until 1999.

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t1

    There really does not appear to be a good faith effort to provide meaningful information in that rebuttal.

  214. Kamilla
    February 1, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Let’s step back and look at the credibility of the medical field in general. It is on the decline and people are fighting back.

    As a former labor and delivery nurse, (worked on and off for almost 14 years) working in hospitals across the country I have seen/done things I’m embarrassed to admit I witnessed/did. A few examples to prove my point. An 18 year old having her first baby is convinced “the baby is not coming out that way” and to sign the Cesarean Section papers so we can “get the ball rolling”. FACT: There was no danger to the term baby or the healthy mom (ie. no fever, no decelerations- yes flat strip due to multiple doses of Stadol, no medical conditions present for either, water was broken for only 12 hours) It was labeled Failure to progress (mom had moved from closed, thick and high to 2cm, 75% and -1 in that 12 hour period and was currently on pitocin @ 20mu). FACT: Doctor had a golf tournament in the morning. FACT: baby weighed a little over 6 lbs. FACT: she just endured major abdominal surgery for convenience. That doctor had a reputation of pulling “FTP” on patients while on call so he did not have to be disturbed in the middle of the night for a delivery. Whistles were blown . . . nothing done. Another story and then I’ll stop. (There are plenty more, enough that I am sick of the lies told and have little trust when a physician tells me what is “best” for me and my children) Slow couple of days on a neonatal ICU prompted a physician and a couple of nurses to come to the labor and delivery unit and go “shopping”. I was told to call for NICU for my delivery. I questioned why. The answer was that if the census didn’t come up, some nurses would lose a job. AND??? So they come to my delivery and take the baby for “tachypnia” No other signs of labored breathing, yet they separate mother and baby the first hour of life to “observe” the newborn. SICK.

    Don’t get me wrong there is a time and place for modern medicine, it’s just out of control! Insurance companies, drug companies, overworked doctors, etc., etc. make for a healthcare system that is loosing it’s credibility. It is so sad.

    For now I choose to learn all I can about medicinal plants and herbs as well as healing with diet, exercise and decreasing stress. I’ll come to the doctors if absolutely necessary.

  215. Nathan
    February 1, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    So, let me get this straight – you personally had at least two crappy experiences with doctors in 14 years, so therefore the entire medical field is “in the decline?” And since you are posting here, we are to conclude that all the evidence and expert opinion that agree that vaccines are safe and effective are wrong? And herbs are better?

    Just trying to follow your logic here.

  216. pa nurse
    February 2, 2012 at 4:03 am

    Don’t be so snippy Nathan. She only expressed two incidents, she probably has hundreds. Nurses see and experience incidents that would probably turn your hair a different color. It is apparent these experiences affected her deeply. Our health system is still one of the best in the world, but it is far, far from perfect.

    Her point as mine has been, in our experience, people who research their specific health issue are better prepared, have healthier outcomes than those who put their entire trust in their medical professionals. Most people when learning of a new diagnosis, are a bit like “a deer caught in the headlights”, they are usually not listening beyond the initial information. Questions that should have been asked are not even thought of for as long as days later and possibly never.

    So bottom line, be informed, learn all you can learn, and make an informed decision. Her experience has taught her to maintain as healthy a lifestyle as possible and she may be able to avoid many of the health issues that can arise. Nothing wrong with that.

    We nurses work ourselves to the bone on a daily basis trying to help people get through what is often the most difficult crisis of their lives, if we end up bruised by this along the way, we earned it.

  217. Nathan
    February 2, 2012 at 10:53 am

    She only expressed two incidents, she probably has hundreds.

    Perhaps – hence why I said at least two.

    But other nurses could give stories of doctors and other healthcare professionals that work ethically and tirelessly, as well as the harrowing stories that you are talking about. I expect she could too, if she were looking for those kinds of things. And like many stories online, there is probably more to the above stories than she is aware of or that she is willing to share.

    Regardless, my point was that one person’s personal experience does not constitute evidence that the entire medical profession’s credibility is “is on the decline.” And it is even a greater stretch to try to apply one person’s personal non-vaccine-related experience to vaccines, which is what this blog concerns. Those are the logical steps that escape me.

  218. pa nurse
    February 2, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Like it or not Nathan, our health care system is on a slight decline. I would not agree to the extent she is describing. But we have lost something along the way. Is it political? Or is it the insurance industry setting the standards by which we can practice our profession? Is it the pharmaceutical companies trying to sell it to us? Bottom line; many people in general are not getting the care they should be. Unfortunately immunizations have become the “poster child” for this very issue.

    I started my comments on this site, trying to explain the difference between when I was younger and what happens now. We had gotten very few vaccines when we were children. Actually we had been given most of them through school. The result was most children handled them without incident. Most children handled getting the measles, mumps and chickenpox without incident. This alone deserves attention. Why are there so many problems today? Yes, I do wonder about the number of immunizations we give our children as early as infancy. But, as a nurse do I question a parents’ right to make this decision…..absolutely not. Would I advise them either way, absolutely not. If I work for a Dr who gives immunizations (and I have), and the parents want their children to have them, then I give them. But I believe I have the right to my opinion after 30 years of watching with my own eyes. And I do not feel what I have observed needs to be backed up by empirical evidence, it is just my opinion and what I have experienced, and only offered here in this forum.

    As far as empirical evidence is concerned, there are references to all the pro’s and con’s,as evidenced here. It is up to parents’ with their physicians’ assistance to make their way through all the information available, and then make the right choice for their children and themselves.

    Does making a decision not to immunize put other children at risk, yes, it does. But at the same time MMR is in our air. Just as the Bubonic Plague is still alive and well, so are these childhood diseases. There is no guarantee the children who cannot take immunizations would not still suffer these diseases if all children who can be are immunized. There is no doubt incidents of outbreaks would decrease if they were. In my area right now there is an outbreak of Pertussis in our elementary schools, the schools have had to close temporarily. Yes, it is that bad.

    I wish I had the answers. There are many here in this forum who think they do. I just understand how parents are feeling, and they are terrified. Whether for or against immunizations they are terrified. That in itself is enough reason to have open minded, intelligent discussions on how we can help parents of young children make the right decisions. But all of this screaming/stuck in the mud nonsense ends with no one a winner, and our little ones continue to suffer.

    Allow for this, research changes almost daily. There were procedures taught us in nursing school that changed before we graduated, that’s how quick things can change in medicine. All this quoted evidence will most likely be debunked in very little time and new evidence to follow. We have to hold hope that somehow, someday soon the answer will be found. And with that a cure for cancer, diabetes, etc.

  219. February 2, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    But I believe I have the right to my opinion after 30 years of watching with my own eyes. And I do not feel what I have observed needs to be backed up by empirical evidence, it is just my opinion and what I have experienced, and only offered here in this forum.

    So don’t be offended when we give your opinion the amount of respect it deserves, which is none.

    I just understand how parents are feeling, and they are terrified. Whether for or against immunizations they are terrified. That in itself is enough reason to have open minded, intelligent discussions on how we can help parents of young children make the right decisions. But all of this screaming/stuck in the mud nonsense ends with no one a winner, and our little ones continue to suffer.

    I get it too. I understand how vaccines works and their benefits and the real risks and I still suffer a great deal of anxiety before a vaccination appointment. I can just imagine the fear of parents who don’t understand the propaganda spewed by the anti-vax movement is pure and utter nonsense.

    Open-minded does not mean we consider everyone’s opinion on the topic. Open-minded means examining the evidence and there is no evidence to support not vaccinating unless there is a medical contraindication. Knowing that there is no “other side”, simplifies the discussion considerably and time does not have to be wasted on debunking anti-vaccine nonsense over and over again.

    The difficulty in your statement is that it takes a great deal of courage to step outside our fears and look at vaccines rationally. It takes a great deal of scientific knowledge to understand why the talking points of the anti-vaccine movement are bogus. How do you propose health care professionals get parents to step up to the plate and do the hard work required to understand the issues? How do we get parents to understand that experts have done this hard work and recommend vaccines for the population?

    The goal of the anti-vaccine movement is to muddy the waters, usually for their own profit. They prey on the emotions of parents which is something everyone understands. How do you unscare people that have been scared?

    Allow for this, research changes almost daily. There were procedures taught us in nursing school that changed before we graduated, that’s how quick things can change in medicine. All this quoted evidence will most likely be debunked in very little time and new evidence to follow.

    This is true, but we have to make the best choice with the information we have right now. Right now, we know that vaccines offer more benefits than risks. We know that the choice to not vaccinate is considerably more risky than the choice to vaccinate. Future research will make that gap even bigger, but it is very unlikely that someone is going to discover something tomorrow that completely reverses what we currently know. Vaccines can be better in the future, but that doesn’t mean the vaccines we have today are dangerous or useless.

  220. pa nurse
    February 2, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    No Nathan, I am not offended that my opinion is not respected, I’d be a fool to be so. I’ve never thought of myself as a fool.

    However, again with my own eyes. I’ve given hundreds of vaccines to babies, toddlers and young children (you can’t imagine how disconcerting it is to walk into an exam room, and a child bursts into tears just because you walked in). I would have to honestly say the incidents of reactions were about 1%. About 1/2 the 1% were what would be considered severe; requiring hospitalization. This is what causes the fear in parents, again at least in what I have observed. They just don’t know if their child will react favorably or not. Will their child be in that 1%? Then they question if it is worth the risk. Keep in mind Nathan, most parents are not thinking about the effect any decision they make will have on other people’s children. As a medical professional I can tell you without hesitation, it is an entirely different story when it happens to you. How do you explain that risk, and then encourage them to do it anyway? Even though it is a small chance of a reaction, and an even smaller chance that reaction will be severe, how do parents make the decision to “take a chance”, even one that is so minimal? How do you even begin to persuade them? You know the expression “caught between a rock and a hard place”, well parents today are stuck between a HUGE rock and a HUGE hard place. These are their babies, brought into the world with love and deep devotion. They are generally young parents, wanting nothing more than what is best, yet in this decision are truly frightened that either way, they could be putting their child’s health and consequently others at risk. Again, very small chance, but when it comes to you own? They don’t need empirical evidence, all it really takes is one child to have a reaction, have it made public and the whole house of cards can come tumbling down.

    So the question I have a lot of trouble with (?) is even one child experiencing adverse reactions worth all this? Is it not just as imperative that we find out why this tiny population cannot tolerate these vaccines? Keep in mind even adults can have adverse reactions to vaccines, it does happen.

    I whole heartily agree with you Nathan, fear is a very powerful tool. One used way to often today as a means of gaining the “upper hand”. Yet, I believe the responsibility for this fear mongering spreads far and wide, way beyond the general medical community.

    And as I am just plain too lazy, do you know if there are any studies being done regarding “spreading” the immunizations out a bit? I know from my giving these, the littlest ones get quite a few in a very short time. Is it possible it is just too many to early? I think these are honest questions, and I can’t help but wonder? Especially when you consider, children of my era, having only DPT, Polio, and Small Pox vaccines, and spread over a period of time, never made the headlines over reactions to these vaccines? Food for some thought?

  221. Nathan
    February 2, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Hi, pa nurse. Please understand that I am not “Myths of the Anti-Vaccine Movement.”

    I would have to honestly say the incidents of reactions were about 1%. About 1/2 the 1% were what would be considered severe; requiring hospitalization.

    I find your assessment doubtful. I think you should consider the ways in which our observations are biased. Severe reactions to vaccines requiring hospitalizations are extremely rare and nowhere around 0.5%. They are many orders of magnitude less.

    As a medical professional I can tell you without hesitation, it is an entirely different story when it happens to you.

    I agree. But this does not actually change how safe the vaccine is compared to the disease. It is also entirely different when a complication from a vaccine preventable disease happens to you.

    How do you explain that risk, and then encourage them to do it anyway? Even though it is a small chance of a reaction, and an even smaller chance that reaction will be severe, how do parents make the decision to “take a chance”, even one that is so minimal?How do you even begin to persuade them?

    Well, first, you dispel myths such as the one you just wrote, that the chance of hospitalization is 0.5%. How do you stop people from promoting this kind of misinformation? That’s what I want to know.

    The reality is that not vaccinating is a greater chance. The decision is really pretty easy if explained. Take a miniscule and I mean miniscule) chance of a serious adverse reaction with a vaccine, or a much greater risk with the disease.

    You know the expression “caught between a rock and a hard place”, well parents today are stuck between a HUGE rock and a HUGE hard place.

    They really aren’t, but people like you want to make them think they are. It’s not really a “rock and a hard place” kind of decision, because that implies that both sides have equal risk. They do not, not by a long shot. People do, in fact, need empirical evidence, because that is the only way to assess risk. And perhaps, they need experts who are qualified to assess this evdience. What they dont need are unsupported personal opinions, such as yours. They only serve to stoke their fear, not provide them with accurate information.

    And as I am just plain too lazy, do you know if there are any studies being done regarding “spreading” the immunizations out a bit?

    Sure. Here is one that looks at spreading out vaccinations and long term neurologic outcomes. There are also many that look at combinations of vaccines and whether they cause acute problems, but they are too many to list, as they are required of all vaccines before licensure.

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/6/1134.abstract

    Anything is possible, but the evidence does not support your hypothesis. This is a problem, pa nurse. You are relying on your personal experience and are not looking into the literature on the subject.

    Of course, the obvious risk of spreading out vaccines is that it leaves children more vulnerable to disease for longer. That is the thing you are continually ignoring in your comments – the risk of the disease. You only mention that you didn’t know anyone who was harmed by measles, etc. That is inadequate, as many people were, in fact harmed by measles. Far more than have ever been harmed by the vaccine.

    I think these are honest questions, and I can’t help but wonder? Especially when you consider, children of my era, having only DPT, Polio, and Small Pox vaccines, and spread over a period of time, never made the headlines over reactions to these vaccines?

    Sure they did. They just didn’t have an internet to spread the stories around at the time. DPT in particular made plenty of headlines, as did OPV. Our current DTaP and IPV, not so much.

  222. pa nurse
    February 2, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    First of all Nathan, I did not say it was 0.5%, I said it was about 1% so less than your actual figure. I also said it was about 0.5% of that 1% that had a reaction enough to be hospitalized. I also said I have never advised a parent, I have left that to the Dr. And I am not above saying that I am grateful I did not have to do so, not to say that I would not advise to get the vaccines, but as I really did not know what to say that would truly calm their fears, I was grateful I didn’t have to. The literature presented to parents when getting their children are vaccinated is produced by the CDC, those numbers you quoted are in there, parents read those numbers and go numb. I am finding most of the comments here are lacking a basic understanding of human nature and what a parent is “feeling”, despite what is logical.

    That being said I would choke my son if he did not have my grandsons immunized. I am presently pestering him about the HPV vaccine, as they are 13 and 14 years old. My son was vaccinated with all these scary vaccines, except for Chicken Pox. He did fine until he got Chicken Pox at age 21, 2 weeks before the vaccine was made available. He had them in his ears, nose, throat, lungs, just about anywhere you looked. I couldn’t even get liquid Tylenol down him, he was hours from being hospitalized before his fever broke. His agony was mine as well. Believe me, I am not anti-vaccine.

    By the way, I do remember horrible incidents of Diptheria when I was a child in very remote area’s of the country (I think it was Alaska, I remember sled dogs saving the day). I married a guy who developed encephalitis with measles when he was a child. I am not saying or even implying there were not incidents back then, just not so much in the news, and I am positive the numbers were a bit lower. I am Native American, my parents were raised partially on reservations, I don’t think I need to say more when it comes to communicable diseases? But I do know most life altering injury or deaths resulting from these childhood diseases many years ago generally occurred in areas where health care was minimal or non-existent. In the areas where children were accessing good health care, these incidents were much fewer. The reasons I say this, I remember reading in the paper back in the 70’s that vaccinations would be mandatory as our inner city poor had a high incident of injury/death from MMR, due to the lack of availability of health care and poor nutrition. I was absolutely outraged,as this was definitely not a good reason, but thankfully over the years, that issue has corrected itself in the most part by improved social services, and yes vaccinations.

    You may be right, it may be the “information age” we are in that sensationalizes what doesn’t need sensationalizing. And maybe it seems so much more of a problem to me due to that very reason. But to imply we should ignore that little percentage of children effected by these vaccines, not to respect a parents’ concern that their child could be one of those, is just as wrong as not giving them the vaccines at all. This is the kind of open mindedness I was looking for. When you can put yourself in someone else’s shoes, understand their fears, and then try really hard not to pound a bunch of numbers into their head, yet get them to understand this really is for the best, only then will you have truly won the argument. So far there hasn’t been one person on this forum who has shown they can do it, and yes I do include myself. But, I am willing to try, otherwise I wouldn’t have even started joining in on this conversation. It isn’t about the numbers and statistics, or citations and studies, it is about human nature. It only takes one child to have a serious reaction, for all parents to fear their child will be next.

  223. Nathan
    February 2, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    No, 0.5% is less than 1%. Note the decimal. Perhaps you thought I meant 50% or 5%. I did not. I meant one-half of one percent, or roughly one in 200. That is the amount you claim suffer hospitalization due to vaccines. That is the number that is highly erroneous, and off by several orders of magnitude.

    Here are the list of VISs. I’d like to know which of these presents risks that you think most scares parents. None of them support your assertion that one half of one percent of children are hospitalized from the vaccine.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/

    But I do know most life altering injury or deaths resulting from these childhood diseases many years ago generally occurred in areas where health care was minimal or non-existent.

    Well, that only makes sense. Poor health care means poorer outcomes. However, keep in mind that good health care involves vaccines.

    The reasons I say this, I remember reading in the paper back in the 70′s that vaccinations would be mandatory as our inner city poor had a high incident of injury/death from MMR, due to the lack of availability of health care and poor nutrition. I was absolutely outraged,as this was definitely not a good reason

    Why is this not a good reason to vaccinate? Also, can you provide me a link where this is stated as the sole rationale for requiring vaccinations? It seems to me that vaccines reduce the risk of death from VPDs for everyone, not just the poor.

    But to imply we should ignore that little percentage of children effected by these vaccines, not to respect a parents’ concern that their child could be one of those, is just as wrong as not giving them the vaccines at all.

    I would never imply such a thing. There is an enormous amount of effort and money spent on making vaccines safer. Vaccines are far safer now than they have ever been. For example, there used to be a one in a million or so chance of the OPV reverting to wild type polio. Now we use the IPV, which is not live and does not have this risk.

    What I do object to is the idea that this “little percentage” is being ignored. They are not. Millions is spent studying and monitoring vaccines and trying to identify these little percentages. The problem is, that sometimes, the studies show that certain “little percentages” that people believe to exist, don’t appear to actually exist.

    I appreciate the way you are approaching this issue. I do believe that you have children’s best interests at heart and are listening to both sides. I do, however, think you could use some more accurate information as to the rationale for vaccination and the true risks involved. And I agree with you, sometimes all the accurate numbers in the world won’t convince someone who is simply afraid. We need to be better at looking at these issues from the others’ point of view.

  224. Dorthy
    November 2, 2012 at 12:29 am

    I am forever baffled by Kaiser denying our son with nursing gloves. He’s a severely autitsic young man who has a bowel program. How in the world do you insert a suppository in the absence of nursing gloves? Aren’t we supposed to be adhering to infection control protocol? And our son has also had MRSA in past, which you’d think a logical person would see this is even more a reason to have gloves covered, in order to prevent MRSA outbreaks among health care workers handling these patients.

  225. "The great white albertan"
    November 18, 2012 at 1:45 am

    First thing I ask, is why does the magical vaccine not make you immune to the very thing you are vaccinated for? If it was so rock solid, all people who refuse vaccine would die off to leave the rest of the herd (of sheep mind you) healthy and free of disease. Modern medicine is as much business as it is science, unfortunately there are only a few capable of the cognitive process of filtering out the pocket padding from what is needed. Doctors are becoming more like salesmen every day, and unfortunately there are very few people like the The Patriot Nurse, who have conviction to speak out against it.

  226. Chris
    November 18, 2012 at 2:21 am

    First, we know that immunity from a vaccine is not perfect, but it is better than nothing. Provide evidence that the MMR vaccine does not make 90% of persons who get two doses immune to measles. Just provide the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper that shows more than 10% of persons who get two MMR vaccines get measles.

    The reason many people who do not die off is that even with the high rate of mortality with smallpox not everyone dies. Sure one out of three died from the variola major, but that still left more that two thirds (2/3, that is more than half) alive.

    The problem is that people still got sick, and lived with unsightly pox marks on their faces. And even though measles doesn’t kill everyone, it does cause permanent neurological damage (blindness, deafness, mental retardation, paralysis) in one in about a thousand… which is only three times as many as it kills.

    If it was so rock solid, all people who refuse vaccine would die off to leave the rest of the herd (of sheep mind you) healthy and free of disease.

    So says someone who has probably never read a history or biology book, and thinks that anyone who gets a vaccine preventable disease actually has to die. Good grief, have you even heard of Congenital Rubella Syndrome, a known cause of autism? Do you honestly think getting measles, mumps, pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, and chicken pox is happy fun time where you get to spend some time at home watching videos? Have you not taken care of a child so sick they could not sleep, or wet the bed, or had seizures? I have, it is not fun.

    Only an evil person would wish that kind of suffering on a child, especially if it can be prevented.

  227. November 18, 2012 at 10:22 am
  228. November 18, 2012 at 11:43 am

    @Heather – misinformation all right & that site is full of it.

  229. lilady
    November 18, 2012 at 11:49 am

    @ Lawrence: That *site’s* blogger is Heather White. Here’s where Heather gets all her *information* from; enjoy !

    http://www.autismrawdata.net/outreach.html

  230. November 18, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    @lilady – so, Heather gets here information from all the typical anti-vaccination websites….why am I not surprised.

  231. lilady
    November 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    I’m not surprised Lawrence…those anti-vaccine websites are the (pseudo)science blogs for credulous parents who claim their children were injured by vaccines. She’s quit her job and has spent years *recovering* her child from autism.

  232. November 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    I actually use government documents and published medical journals.

    Yes Enjoy!

  233. November 18, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    @Heather – misinformation & misinterpretation of the actual facts. Todd’s website:

    http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

    Debunks the majority of what you’ve posted…..

  234. November 18, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Lilady, my son was actually investigated by CDC epidemiologists, he’s part of a research project for damaged Central Auditory Nervous System ~ CANS (due to encephalopathy or heavy metal poisoning). He is listed as vaccine injured, and yes he also has autism. Your skeptic argument is so far behind the times. Medical scientific consensus is evolving away from your tired misinformed argument. Vaccine injury is real and the effects are known to impact the brain (among other things).

  235. November 18, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Lawrence, actually his site debunks a lot of what the CA nurse said. He doesn’t even touch on the specific points outlined by this or my article.

  236. November 18, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    @Heather – straw man….no one here is saying vaccine injuries don’t exist. What science has proven, over and over again, is that serious reactions are exceedingly rare (at the rate of 1 in 1mil or 1 in 10mil) and that the link between autism & vaccines has been investigated and also disproven (over and over again).

    It is you that is behind the times….

  237. November 18, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    @Heather – so, you admit that this “nurse” doesn’t know what she’s talking about….cool.

  238. November 18, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @Heather – do you know the difference between a molecule & a compound?

  239. November 18, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    @Heather – looking at your list of “chronic” illnesses, how do you classify “SIDS” as a chronic illness? Also, why has the rate of SIDS been in steep decline since the push to have babies sleep on their stomach?

    Also, are you a believer that “Shaken Baby Syndrome” is caused by vaccines? Rather than as a convenient excuse for parents that have abused & killed their own children?

  240. November 18, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Darn….lost a comment there….meant to say babies sleeping on their backs….and most, if not all, anti-vaccine individuals don’t have a clue the difference between a molecule & a compound.

  241. November 18, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Lawrence: “looking at your list of “chronic” illnesses, how do you classify “SIDS” as a chronic illness?”

    Link to this and then I can see the context. I am in PA school so yes I know the difference between a compound and a molecule.

    Here is a short list of supporting science – I uploaded the info in a scribe slide presentation, enjoy! http://www.autismrawdata.net/1/post/2012/09/my-new-project.html

  242. lilady
    November 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    @ Heather: Your website is a steaming pile of pseudoscience mumbo-jumbo. You are actually attacking Canadian Nurse in favor of the Patriot Nurse.

    “Lilady, my son was actually investigated by CDC epidemiologists, he’s part of a research project for damaged Central Auditory Nervous System ~ CANS (due to encephalopathy or
    heavy metal poisoning). He is listed as vaccine injured, and yes he also has autism.”

    How about linking to that CDC research project?

    What heavy metal *poisoned* your son….or was it encephalopathy? What type of laboratory testing did your son undergo to determine he had heavy metal *poisoning*.

    How are you *recovering* your child from *heavy metal poisoning/autism*?

    “He is listed as vaccine injured”…so you filled out a VAERS report…big deal.

    I’ve seen on your website the *type* of journal articles you read. Shaw’s article on Al adjuvants attaching itself to brain tissue and the bogus study by Shaw and Lee about HPV rDNA being found in brain tissue following administration of Gardisal vaccine.

    BTW Heather, the link on your website to the AIDS epidemic being a government conspiracy i.e. a weapon of mass destruction is pathetic. ” Medical scientific consensus is evolving away from your tired misinformed argument.”

  243. November 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    @Heather – YouTube videos are not evidence….and I’ve seen similar items that posted elsewhere before…and here is a good take down of that kind of “science:”

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/08/a-misguided-chalkboard-talk/

    If you are aware of the difference between a molecule & a compound, you’ll be able to tell why, as a compound, molecules that, in a pure form might be toxic (say Chlorine for example) are rendered benign in a compound (say Salt, for instance).

    Good thing that real scientists & researchers have moved different and more fruitful directions….you and your ilk are being left behind at a rapid clip – which you’d know, if you actual kept up to date on the real research out there.

  244. November 18, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    @lilady – wow, the filter is strong today….I want to post that Heather is about half-a-step away (based on the links on her site) from straight d nial of g rm th ory.

  245. lilady
    November 18, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    @ Lawrence: She *claims* to be in PA school…yet is clueless about immunology, virology, bacteriology and medical epidemiology.

    Heather, tell us again about AIDS being a man-made government conspiracy i.e. a weapon of mass destruction.

  246. Virginia
    November 18, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Thanks, Heather, your website is great! I’ve started reading it already, but wanted to tell you how interesting and informative it is.

  247. November 18, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    @lilady – and here come the sock-puppets…..

  248. lilady
    November 18, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    @ Lawrence: Unfortunately, I will be offline for a few hours (my usual Sunday visit at my *other son’s* group home)…so I will be missing all of Heather’s *gems* and her sockie’s comments.

    I’m still waiting for answers to the questions I posted at Heather (#243) above.

  249. November 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    @lilady – yeah, heading out myself. Family-time.

    I’m sure, based on the information she provided, she’s also a proponent of the Geier-therapies as well, not to mention MMS.

  250. November 18, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    Heather White :
    Lilady, my son was actually investigated by CDC epidemiologists, he’s part of a research project for damaged Central Auditory Nervous System ~ CANS (due to encephalopathy or heavy metal poisoning). He is listed as vaccine injured, and yes he also has autism. Your skeptic argument is so far behind the times. Medical scientific consensus is evolving away from your tired misinformed argument. Vaccine injury is real and the effects are known to impact the brain (among other things).

    I’m sorry Heather but I couldn’t locate any clinical trials that you describe. Could you provide the clinical trial ID number? If you made a VAERS report then it wouldn’t be terribly unusual for a follow-up by the HHS (CDC). I’d also be interested in the VAERS report and NVICP filing.

  251. Chris
    November 18, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    I doubt you will get a straight answer out of Ms. White, Science Mom. If you look at her blog she has a long answer to Lawrence with a title that refers to censorship. This one quote stood out for me: “Under careful review by independent doctors and scientists the epidemiological research not only is a blunt tool for determining causation the studies used have blatant conflicts of interest, poor designs and unsupported conclusions (SafeMinds, 2012).”

    Uh, huh. SafeMinds is not known for being unbiased. The only literature that I have seen that criticizes one of the epidemiological studies was written by Mark Blaxill, who is not a doctor or a scientist.

  252. Chris
    November 18, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Also, Ms. White posted that same comment here months ago that she posted yesterday, which was deconstructed by Nathan.

  253. November 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    That makes her statement:

    Medical scientific consensus is evolving away from your tired misinformed argument.

    Even more ironic given her vested interest in “mercury-induced autism” and how “last decade” that trope is.

  254. November 18, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    @ScienceMom – wow, a whole blog post dedicated to little old me…..well, you are right, Nathan does a good job of hitting the most obviously lies / misinterpretations – and her continued fascination the “mercury-link” is quaint, given that the amount of Thimersol in the American Pediatric schedule is close to zero – even more so when you consider that some states require Thimersol-free vaccines.

    Of course, she also leaves the door open to jump on the Aluminum bandwagon as well – so we’ll certainly see where she goes from here.

  255. Nathan
    November 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Indeed, and strangely Ms. White claims in the comments of her blog that she was censored from posting here. Yet, here she is again, posting the same link to the same post in the same thread, and from the look of her avatar, the same email address. The quality of her deconstruction has of course not changed either.

  256. lilady
    November 19, 2012 at 12:08 am

    So Heather and her sockie Virginia are gone now. You did a great job guys, sending her/them on their way back to la-la-land.

  257. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    You are in LA LA Land. You’re not keeping up with new information like Leaky Gut and the Gut/Brain connection. They are very real and new studies are proving it. Wake up.

  258. November 19, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    @Lohne – care to cite any of those “new & real” studies?

  259. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    The American Academy of Pediatrics is now recognizing the association between gastrointestinal problems and Autism. This is the November 2012 issue of their journal, Pediatrics.

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/Supplement_2.toc

  260. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    Here is Dr. Sears talking about information in the November issue of Pediatrics…

    http://tacanowblog.com/2012/11/08/gut-brain-connection-leaky-guy-no-longer-crazy-talk-says-aap/

  261. November 19, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    @Lohne – first, Dr. Sears is not an expert in immunology & his practice has actively led to outbreaks of infectious diseases (from his very patient list).

    Second, if autism is genetic, it is quite possible that you would see “other” potential bodily abnormalities, like Downs is also related to heart problems and abnormalities – so it is theoretically possible that “leaky gut” would be a genetic by-product of autism.

    So, what does this have to do with vaccines again?

  262. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Dr. Sears didn’t do the research, the AAP did.

    Keep grasping, your type of thinking is going down.

    I guess you should watch the video that starts this whole thread again.

  263. November 19, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    @Lohne – you do realize that if “leaky gut” has anything to do with autism, that it is probably genetic? Which means that autism is genetic, which means your obsession with vaccines as a cause is misplaced…..yet again.

  264. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    Genetic predisposition and environmental factors (vaccines)
    Can’t detox which leads to symptons which leads to autism.

  265. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Lohne, the articles on gastrointestinal issues have to do with management in autistic children, much like the rest of the articles in that supplement (not issue). It is well known that behavioral problems can lead to bowel problems, from constipation (a problem I had with a neurotypical child who was both stubborn and refused to veggies) to diarrhea.

    From the introduction:

    This supplement includes several sections, all related to the initiative. It brings together in one place a rich and diverse compilation of clinical
    research and practice improvement related to the care of children and youth with autism and related neurodevelopmental disorders.

    The relevant articles on gastrointestinal problems are titled: “Management of Constipation in Children and Adolescents With Autism Spectrum Disorders” and “Gastrointestinal Conditions in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder: Developing a Research Agenda” (which says “Gastrointestinal complaints are a commonly reported concern for parents and may be related to problem behaviors and other medical issues such as dysregulated sleep (ATN Annual Registry Report, unpublished data, November 2009).”

    The are sixteen other articles that are on other subjects like insomnia, behavior, nutrition, etc. And none of them seem to mention vaccines.

    Plus, it is also suspicious that you chose a ‘nym that is Lara’s last name.

    Lawrence, the genetics doctor who saw my son for his heart condition “encouraged” us to get a full ($10000) genetic screening for our son. He did not have one of the eighteen or so known genetic sequences for his physical heart anomaly, she thought it would be interesting to see if there was a sequence related to his neurological issues that might also be part of the heart condition. Since it provided no clinical advantage to him, and I am sure it would not be picked up by health insurance, we declined. Though we did tell her that they could have more blood samples from him for their research, since she is active in the genetic research of autism and similar conditions.

  266. November 19, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Dr. Sears didn’t do the research, the AAP did.

    “Lohne” you should acquire a different ‘nym as it’s rude to impersonate others. Also, that was a review and Chris outlined the thrust of it. Just because something mentions “gut” doesn’t mean that suddenly Wakefield was right. Lastly, Bob Sears is not an autism nor GI specialist by any stretch and his understanding of the supplement is, true to form, a misrepresentation and twisting of facts to conform with his own biases. Let the adults tend to the research m’kay?

  267. November 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    @Chris – I find the theoretical idea that “gut-issues” could be a result of the genetic expression of autism as something that could be possible…again, much like other genetic abnormalities, like Downs, can result in other problems – like abnormal heart function, etc.

    I also agree that the articles cited by Lohne aren’t related to vaccines…except for their being cited by notorious anti-vaccine individuals like Dr. Sears & Age of Autism.

    People also forget that autism is a “Spectrum” and no a singular affliction – which means that a whole host of genetic markers could be in play, across entire populations, which express themselves in many different ways. Again, a huge knock against vaccines being a cause, since population studies don’t show an increased risk of autism diagnosis by vaccination status.

  268. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Lohne:

    Dr. Sears didn’t do the research, the AAP did.

    It is obvious you went by what Dr. Sears wrote and did not read any of the articles. By the way, the one I quoted is available free online, so you have no excuse for accepting his cherry picked version of it blindly. It is also not so much “research”, as a review suggesting how to do some research.

    Did you even click on that link and read the article titles?

    Can’t detox which leads to symptons which leads to autism.

    Try making that into a full comprehensible sentence. Also link specifically to which paper in the supplement makes a detox claim, or even a claim to vaccines. I have clicked on a few of them and did not encounter a pay wall.

  269. November 19, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    @ScienceMom – idle speculation aside, I do leave it up to the experts to actually do the research, rather than make tired old “screeds,” against vaccines…..I leave that up to the loonies…..

  270. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Lawrence:

    I find the theoretical idea that “gut-issues” could be a result of the genetic expression of autism as something that could be possible…

    And that is mentioned in my skim of the full paper. I would agree with you, as you can see the genetics specialist at the university does want to investigate those possible connections. Though I put my kids’ issues to behavior (especially the neuro-typical future math geek who refused to be potty trained until he was five, while his disabled brother asked not to be put in diapers for special ed. preschool).

    I can’t believe that “Lohne” even looked at the titles of those papers, much less read any of them.

  271. November 19, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    @Chris – I would agree. Upon reading through the actual materials, there is a lot there – but nothing that actually supports that Dr. Sears or the anti-vaccine people are trying to portray.

    Another instance of misinterpretation of what has been presented….typical anti-vaccine behavior.

  272. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    I do not know who Lara is, but I can assure you my name is Lohne.

    @Chris
    “It is well known that behavioral problems can lead to bowel problems” Really Chris?
    Read the articles.

    @ScienceMom
    You are rude and condescending.
    Let the real scientists do the research m’kay, sciencemom.

    @Lawrence
    “People also forget that autism is a “Spectrum” and no a singular affliction – which means that a whole host of genetic markers could be in play, across entire populations, which express themselves in many different ways.”
    Yes….when your body can’t detoxify it causes a whole “spectrum” of health issues. You’re finally getting it!

  273. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Lawrence:

    Another instance of misinterpretation of what has been presented….typical anti-vaccine behavior.

    And of a follower blindly believing what Sears wrote instead of actually clicking on the links and reading the papers. It is the same type of thing when I ask for what one must read and understand before using VAERS from the official entry portal. Most the time they are led to NVIC’s portal which skips some very important protocols, see: NVIC: Information that’s not. Exhibit B.”

  274. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Lohne:

    Read the articles.

    I did, and that is what it says. Most of the articles have to do with behavior and interventions. Have you even read the titles?

  275. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    “Lohne”, since all of the articles are available online please provide the title of the paper and a cut and paste of a quote from that paper supporting any further statements. If you claim that there is something to “detox”, then show us the verbiage from one of those papers that speaks of detox. Much like I did when I quoted the paper above when it said:

    Gastrointestinal complaints are a commonly reported concern for parents and may be related to problem behaviors and other medical issues such as dysregulated sleep (ATN Annual Registry Report, unpublished data, November 2009).

  276. Gray Falcon
    November 19, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    @Lohne: Why do you feel you can call Science Mom “rude and condescending”, and then write, immediately afterwards: “Let the real scientists do the research m’kay, sciencemom.” Then again, you seem to think that “Yes….when your body can’t detoxify it causes a whole “spectrum” of health issues.” was an intelligent response. I can say that because I don’t feel any obligation to be polite. I don’t care if you’re rude, but don’t be hypocritical about it.

  277. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Science Mom was rude and condescending….so I was rude back.

    She accused me of being rude and of impersonating somebody else. Then went on to this…
    “Let the adults tend to the research m’kay?”

    I don’t care what you think Gray Falcon. You should think before your speak.

  278. November 19, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Lohne :
    I do not know who Lara is, but I can assure you my name is Lohne.

    I sincerely doubt your real name is Lohne. Just simply because of how that name came to be a surname and knowing my own family history and genealogy. I’d appreciate it if you refrained from using my name.

  279. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    Really? It was my Great Grandma’s name and I was named after her….so please don’t try and lay claim to my name!

  280. November 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    @Lohne – Lara was here first, so throw your tantrum somewhere else. You still haven’t read what you’ve purported to be “evidence” of vaccine-autism linkage…since it says nothing of the sort.

  281. November 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    @Chris
    “It is well known that behavioral problems can lead to bowel problems” Really Chris?
    Read the articles.

    I believe she did and suggested you do the same rather than parrot some lame synopsis from a complete non-expert and notorious abuser of research articles.

    @ScienceMom
    You are rude and condescending.
    Let the real scientists do the research m’kay, sciencemom.

    Well of course I am to twits blazing in with proclamations of assinine autism aetiologies like “detox”, “vaccinesdidit” and “Sears says so”. Not to mention using a ‘nym which is associated with someone who is not you. I will repeat Chris’ request to please provide any of the supplemental materials that refer to vaccines or detox or any of your other detritus.

  282. Lara Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Lohne is a surname, not a first name. That being the case, I doubt your great grandmother would have retained that name after she married for you to be named after her. I’m not the one laying claim to your name. Based on the comments you have made, I’m actually most inclined to believe you are our own beloved Joe. The detox comment was a bit of a give away.

  283. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    @Lawrence
    Tantrum? I’m not the one telling people NOT to use their own names. I believe that was your request. I think you are the one having a tantrum about it, I couldn’t care less.

  284. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    I was named after her surname…what do you know about my family anyway? I sincerely hope we are NOT related.

  285. November 19, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    @Lohne – it doesn’t take much to scroll up and see I was not the person who said anything about your name. In fact, I am focused on the fact that the evidence you cite does not say what you think it does…..

  286. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Lohne:

    I do not know who Lara is, but I can assure you my name is Lohne.

    So you admit to not reading this blog before today? How did you find this rather old article? Have you even read any of the others, including the guest posts written by Ms. Lohne?

    Some suggestions:

    1. When you find a new blog do not just start posting. Read some of the articles (including the recent ones). Get to know some of the people who write the articles and frequently comment. It also lets you know the level of evidence that is expected when you make claims.

    2. If there is a subject you want to know about, then search that blog.

    3. When you post a webpage, make sure you have actually read it first. That way you can more intelligently answer the questions about that link.

    4. When you are asked for information, do not shoot back “Read the article!” Try to answer by referencing the title, journal and date and include a pertinent quote.

  287. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    So others beleive in toxic-overload and that makes us the same person? This is a crazy-nutty bunch of people. Are you paid for these responses? I can’t think of any other reasons why.

  288. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    “@Lohne – Lara was here first, so throw your tantrum somewhere else.”
    Really?

  289. November 19, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    @Lohne – I merely pointed out that Lara Lohne was here first & yes, also the fact that you’ve been throwing a tantrum, rather than answer direct questions or provide real evidence (at least evidence that supports your position – which I assume is something related to toxic overload, despite the fact that no such evidence exists to support the contention – especially related to vaccines).

    So no, I never stated that you could not use “your name.” So don’t claim that I did.

    And did you ever bother to read the actual papers you cited, because they still don’t say what you think they say.

  290. November 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    @Lohne – and the Shill-gambit is old and tired. We just happen to feel the need to correct the misrepresentations and misleading information that anti-vaccine individuals try to spread….

  291. Lara Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    @Lawrence, I wish sometimes someone did pay me to speak out about what I believe and to defend/support the science behind it. I could use a car, and other things too, lol!

    I find it humorous how often those us of who follow science and logic are accused by those who believe in far fetched hypotheses nutty and crazy… That would be the whole pot and kettle argument, yes?

  292. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Lohne:

    This is a crazy-nutty bunch of people. Are you paid for these responses? I can’t think of any other reasons why.

    The Pharma Shill Gambit is not a substitute for data and evidence. You would know this if had lurked on this blog before commenting.

    Please post the title of the article from that Pediatrics supplements index you linked to, and quote the verbiage from that paper that helps explain what you said above:

    Can’t detox which leads to symptons which leads to autism.

    I am sorry, but I do not understand that sentence, and how it pertains to the special autism supplement you linked to.

  293. lilady
    November 19, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    @ Sockie Lohne:

    Is this all you can come up with…to insult me?

    “You are in LA LA Land. You’re not keeping up with new information like Leaky Gut and the Gut/Brain connection. They are very real and new studies are proving it. Wake up.”

    I’m awake and aware, sockie. I’m also convinced that you are a sockie of Heather White whose deranged postings on this thread have amused us.

    BTW “Lohne” what is your educational background? (graduates of “Google U” or McDonald’s “Hamburger U”, don’t count).

  294. November 19, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    @lilady – Lohne has yet to defend her use of “evidence” that doesn’t say what she thinks it says….so resorting to insults is all she has left….

  295. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    From the folks at MIT….they are smart – right? Aluminum, Vaccines and Autism.

    “We propose that children with the autism diagnosis are especially vulnerable to toxic metals such as aluminum and mercury due to insufficient serum sulfate and glutathione. A strong correlation between autism and the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine is also observed, which may be partially explained via an increased sensitivity to acetaminophen administered to control fever.”

    http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227

  296. November 19, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    @Lohne – interesting that it was published in a “free” journal, especially one mostly concerned about physics – why not a medical journal? And certainly not in PubMed…they don’t seem to have actually done much in the way of actual research as cherry-picked statistics to show whatever it is that they were looking for at the time – and based on reading the paper itself, they seem to blame everything in vaccines for autism (whether it be thimersol – they don’t point out that mercury is an element and thimersol is a compound, two very different things – which also includes the difference between elemental aluminum and aluminum compounds – why does that particular scientific fact seem to escape anti-vaccine individuals?).

    Not very impressive work Lohne.

  297. November 19, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @Lohne – here is the subject matter areas of the Journal in question. I immediately notice that immunology & medicine are not included:

    Subject Areas

    general aspects of entropy and information concepts as used in statistical mechanics, thermodynamics, etc.
    the second law of thermodynamics
    information theory
    system theory and cybernetics
    artificial intelligence, neural networks, complex systems, man-machine interfaces, self-organization theories, systems therapy
    pattern recognition
    chaos, complexity, self-organization, symmetry breaking, stability, reversibility and spontaneity
    quantitative relations of entropy (information loss) and other concepts (e.g., symmetry, similarity, orderliness, simplicity and complexity)
    molecular evolution, biological evolution and the evolution of the universe
    application of entropy and information studies in any natural and social sciences

  298. November 19, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @Lohne – it seems the only reason the study would have qualified to be included in the Journal was the half-assed analytics they authors did on VAERS entries…..not very auspicious.

  299. Lohne
    November 19, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    @Lawrence
    How did I know you’d say that? You don’t agree with them, so you count them out without merit. I’ll take MIT over you any day of the week.

    BTW….guess what glutathione does? It helps the liver detoxify “foreign” pollutants (vaccines) from the body. If you don’t have glutathione, it will be much harder to detoxify, and you will become sick; possibly with a diagnosis of autism.

  300. November 19, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    @Lohne – how about all of the other “toxins” that your body encounters? Why isn’t dialysis a treatment for autism then?

    And you tell me why that paper isn’t published in a Medical Journal instead of one focused on Physics?

    And Lohne – I’ll take real medical researchers over computer scientists when it comes to medicine & health any day of the week too – even if they did graduate from MIT.

  301. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Lohne, it helps if you learn some critical thinking skills when evaluating a paper. Now, let’s us look at this paper:

    Entropy 2012, 14(11), 2227-2253; doi:10.3390/e14112227
    Empirical Data Confirm Autism Symptoms Related to Aluminum and Acetaminophen Exposure
    Stephanie Seneff 1,* email, Robert M. Davidson 2 email and Jingjing Liu 1

    First thing to check is the journal. Is it a medical journal? Hmmm, no it is not.

    Let us look at the authors, are they actual medical researchers? Let us see, they are electrical engineers, computer scientists and a family practice doctor. Not exactly experts in biochemistry, vaccines, or even autism.

    Now, let us take a simple Google search on Stephanie Seneff, Phd (Electrical Engineering, specializing in computerized speech recognition)… oh, oh. A video interview with Dr. Mercola on a subject that is far outside her field. Also, if you go to any doctor’s website and there are links to buy their products, that is a big red flag showing extreme bias.

    Then there is this part from the abstract:

    We propose that children with the autism diagnosis are especially vulnerable to toxic metals such as aluminum and mercury due to insufficient serum sulfate and glutathione. A strong correlation between autism and the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine is also observed, which may be partially explained via an increased sensitivity to acetaminophen administered to control fever.

    She is lumping in several ideas about different vaccines. Is it the metals? One which is no longer in pediatric vaccines or is it the most common metal on this planet’s crust, and the latter being in only some vaccines? Or is it the MMR vaccine, that has never contained either metal, combined with acetaminophen? They need to make up their mind, and stop making a while stab in the dark.

    This tells us that she has an agenda, and is using her education and institution to push that agenda. That is called “argument from authority.” She got it published in a physics journal that does not have reviewers who understand the biology.

    This reminds of Gayle DeLong, Phd (business), an economics professor who claimed all children who get referred to speech therapy are also autistic. So, this means that James Earl Jones (voice of Darth Vader in original movies) must have been autistic because he stuttered as a child.

    Oh, look, I can download it without going through a pay wall. Oh, no! It is worse than I thought. She actually references that terrible paper by DeLong, and some from ex-Dr. Geier! Trust me, Lohne, that is one paper that you need to ignore.

    Now, again, please answer my question about which paper of the Pediatrics autism supplement explains this statement of yours (please include a pertinent quote):

    Can’t detox which leads to symptons which leads to autism.

  302. Chris
    November 19, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Actually looking at that paper is making it worse! She cites a paper by a journalist (Miller) and computer scientist (Goldman) was also terrible. And then they decided that VAERS was actually valid data and did a frequency search of certain words!

    So this MIT professor seems to not have a full grasp of basic statistics, and has definitely did not read the disclaimer on the official VAERS website. All I can figure out is that she, like Peter Duesberg, has tenure.

  303. lilady
    November 19, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    The doctor on that paper, Robert M. Anderson M.D., has got his own website….

    http://www.stress.org/robert-m-davidson-md-phd-fais/

    I’m soooo impressed he is a “fellow” of the “American Institute of Stress”.

    He also *claims* he has *expertise* in public health…and he’s also job hunting…

    “My interests lie in the area of public health, preventive health, and sustainable health care innovation. I strongly believe in medical freedom. The bedrock principle for any invasive
    medical procedure is informed consent. We all have a God-given right to autonomy over our bodies. I believe that my views on health freedom represent a well-reasoned moderate position. I am currently practicing internal medicine in a small group setting in East Texas (near Longview).

    I am presently seeking out-patient, integrative biomedical research, teaching, and/or alternative medical practice salaried employment opportunities, either in the U.S. or abroad. I enjoy reading, writing, and reviewing science-based articles, both preclinical and clinical.”

    Dr. Anderson’s ‘nym is “patrons99″ and he posts frequently on Age of Autism and other anti-vaccine blogs….

    “Representative samples of my writing are found in the following articles. My nom de plume (blog) over the years has been “patrons99”. My profile can be found at the linkedin professional website: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-michael-davidson/b/28a/a33 and at the scribd website: http://www.scribd.com/patrons99 .”

  304. lilady
    November 19, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Oops, my comments refer to Robert M. Davidson, M.D.

  305. November 19, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    @mini me, Autistic people are not sick, and you would do well to remember that. Otherwise you may have the entire adult autistic community ‘up in arms’ (so to speak) against you and your misconceptions. My son is exceptionally healthy, yet he is still autistic. I’ve yet to meet any autistics who are not also exceptionally healthy, except for those whose parents are filling them with poisonous chemicals in an attempt to cure them of autism.

  306. Thomas
    November 19, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    “So others beleive in toxic-overload and that makes us the same person? This is a crazy-nutty bunch of people. Are you paid for these responses? I can’t think of any other reasons why.”

    Most of us are here because we have autistic children or are autistic ourselves, and get annoyed when people tell lies about our children (or ourselves). However, it’s interesting that you leap to the notion that people who post to blogs are paid to do so.

    I note that you complained about people being insulting. Here’s your first post to this thread:

    “You are in LA LA Land. You’re not keeping up with new information like Leaky Gut and the Gut/Brain connection. They are very real and new studies are proving it. Wake up.”

    In other words, you came in here with nothing but insults and unsupported claims, then whined when we noticed.

  307. November 19, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    How did I know you’d say that? You don’t agree with them, so you count them out without merit. I’ll take MIT over you any day of the week.

    Oh good grief and stupid appeal to authority. Ooo MIT it must be twoo. And no Lohne, we actually look at the studies and authors and can come to the conclusion it’s twaddle based upon the methods and results, not some insipid fawning over something authoritative sounding. You’re the one who mindlessly laps up rubbish that conforms with your biases. Now are you going to show us why this “study” should be accepted i.e. methodological strengths and consistent results? And are you going to show us where in the AAP supplement that there is anything regarding “detox” and “vaccinesdidit”?

  308. November 20, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Just because something is published (see the MIT ‘study’) doesn’t mean it’s good science.

    Leave the interpretation of science to the scientists please, Lohne.

  309. Father Time
    January 29, 2013 at 3:07 am

    Your posting of The Patriot Nurse’s personal information was a despicable act. As far as the anonymous Canadian Nurse’s quibblings, misstatements and outright lies are concerned, one must wonder if she is on Big Pharma’s payroll. Disgusting.

  310. lilady
    January 29, 2013 at 3:25 am

    Now who’s sockie are you, Father Time?

    My money is on “Joe”.

  311. January 29, 2013 at 7:37 am

    @lilady – who also posts on a thread more than a year old………

  312. June 6, 2013 at 7:05 am

    Howdy! I simply would like to give a huge thumbs up for the good
    data you might have here on this post. I will be coming back to your blog for more soon.

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