Home > General Info, Science & Research, Vaccine Myths > Why Worry About the Unvaccinated?

Why Worry About the Unvaccinated?

April 12, 2011

Time and again, we hear this from parents who choose not to vaccinate their children.

“If your child is vaccinated, why are you worried about them catching anything from my child?”

This is a common response from parents when it is suggested that a purposely unvaccinated child poses a threat to others.

One thing that many parents may not understand is that while vaccinations are highly effective, and greatly decrease the chance of contracting preventable diseases, no vaccine is 100% effective.    According to CDC reports, “most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients.   For reasons related to the individual, some will not develop immunity.”

This explains why, during an outbreak of a vaccine preventable disease, an unvaccinated child can increase the risk of disease for everyone that may be exposed, even if the people who have been vaccinated vastly outnumber those who have not.  It is not uncommon for a small portion of the vaccinated population to be infected, However, that does not prove that vaccinations are not effective.  To truly understand the risks, you need to know more than just the number of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated who have become infected.  You have to appreciate the percentages that are involved.  For instance, this example offered on the CDC website, explains this concept quite clearly:

“In a high school of 1,000 students, none has ever had measles. All but 5 of the students have had two doses of measles vaccine, and so are fully immunized. The entire student body is exposed to measles, and every susceptible student becomes infected. The 5 unvaccinated students will be infected, of course. But of the 995 who have been vaccinated, we would expect several not to respond to the vaccine. The efficacy rate for two doses of measles vaccine can be higher than 99%. In this class, 7 students do not respond, and they, too, become infected. Therefore 7 of 12, or about 58%, of the cases occur in students who have been fully vaccinated.

As you can see, this doesn’t prove the vaccine didn’t work – only that most of the children in the class had been vaccinated, so those who were vaccinated and did not respond outnumbered those who had not been vaccinated. Looking at it another way, 100% of the children who had not been vaccinated got measles, compared with less than 1% of those who had been vaccinated. Measles vaccine protected most of the class; if nobody in the class had been vaccinated, there would probably have been 1,000 cases of measles.”

When we consider this in relation to what is currently happening in our own communities today, we see why there is reason for the vaccinated to be concerned.  For instance,

In Minnesota:

According to the Minnesota Department of Health, a recent measles outbreak was caused in part by former doctor and medical researcher Andrew Wakefield’s influential but fraudulent study suggesting a connection between child vaccination and autism. Due to his influence, many children in a Somali community there have chosen not to have their children immunized.  Unfortunately, one of these unvaccinated children,  was identified with measles after returning from a trip to Kenya.  Currently, 15 cases have since been identified, five of which were too young to have received the vaccine, six were of age but were not vaccinated, one was vaccinated and three have unknown vaccine status, with a total of eight hospitalizations having been reported so far.

In Virginia:

A small private school in Roanoke, VA, was closed last week due to an outbreak of pertussis (more commonly known as whooping cough).  The school, which does not require students to be vaccinated, has reported 30 confirmed cases; 23 of which have been among the school’s 45 students, the others among staff.  Dr. Molly O’Dell, director of the New River Health District, explained that the infected children were not vaccinated, while the adults infected were never revaccinated with a booster shot.  Unfortunately, many adults do not realize that their immunity to pertussis wanes over time, and that a booster shot is suggested for continued immunity.  

In Utah:

In Utah, a confirmed case of measles first appeared in an unvaccinated teen who returned from a trip to Europe.  Since then, three other cases have been confirmed, none of which were vaccinated.  Now, with six other suspected cases and a trail of possible exposure, it appears that the measles may have spread to four different schools.  Gary Edwards, executive director of the Salt Lake Valley Health Department explained that “The vaccine is very effective against this illness,” which is why children who have not been adequately vaccinated will be temporarily excluded from school in order to contain any further spread of the disease.  

In each of these instances, it is completely possible that some vaccinated children may become infected.  However, it has been the unvaccinated children who have been shown to introduce the disease into these communiies.  These modern day examples are just a few of the many instances that occur all over the country at any given time.  These examples also serve to answer why a vaccinated person might be concerned about contracting a disease from the relatively small unvaccinated segment of the population.

Perhaps this video, by Shane Killion, brought to our attention by Gary Attarian on our Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page, can further help to illustrate this phenomenon by providing a simulation of what is referred to as herd immunity.  It can be effective in helping people understand how vaccine refusal can impact an entire community, even if that community is mostly vaccinated.  The dots on the screen  represent either vaccinated or unvaccinated people.  The video then uses percentages to demonstrate the impact of a disease and the public consequences of a vaccine refuser.

Hopefully, as parents gain a better understanding of vaccinations, they will also come to understand why the vaccinated population might be concerned about vaccine refusal.  

Unfortunately, public health is just that.  Public.  And one person’s vaccination decisions impacts the health of many others, whether they realize it or not.

  1. ma
    April 13, 2011 at 10:47 pm

    seriously? i never had the chicken pox vaccine, and i was exposed to chicken pox several times before i ever got it. my brothers both had chicken pox about 2 years before i ever got it. i lived with them and was exposed and didn’t get it from them. so how the heck can they claim that just because an unvaccinated person is exposed to measles that they will “OF COURSE” get it?

  2. Sara
    April 14, 2011 at 12:24 am

    @ ma: You are not taking into account the difference between measles and chicken pox. Not all people get chicken pox. I did not get it until i was 12, after many exposures when I was a baby! Some people never get it. Measles are more contagious and more dangerous than chicken pox. And chicken pox are very very contagious! Also they are working with averages. There is of course going to be some rare instances where someone who is not vaccinated and exposed does not get measles. However, in almost all cases they will. Also, you should watch out for the adult version of chicken pox (shingles). You may be a lucky person that is naturally immune to chicken pox or you could just be one of those people who doesn’t get it until later. The adult version is much worse and very dangerous.

  3. mo garcia
    April 14, 2011 at 12:45 am

    The emotional tone in this piece over shadows any science.

    The only time I have heard of the herd theory is when the disease scare tactics do not work to get someone to vaccinate; then shame and emotion cloaked as the herd theory enter the picture.

    Furthermore, having cared for many immuno-compromised, late stage cancer patients, and organ transplant patients, I KNOW for a fact that the one person not allowed near the patient is a recently vaccinated child, especially vaccinated with a LIVE VIRUS vaccine. The shedding that the vaccine causes is death to these sick people.

  4. Steve Michaels
    April 14, 2011 at 6:19 am

    Sara you are parroting the propaganda line. “Measles are more contagious and more dangerous then chicken pox”. And exactly HOW dangerous is measles? As Nathan pointed out on a previous post, there were only 500 deaths from measles annually BEFORE the vaccine was introduced. There are more claims for vaccine damage per year than that. My point being that your relative statement really means nothing. Secondly, you state that chicken pox and shingles are the same thing. They are not. They are caused by the same virus but the mechanisms and symptoms are completely different. Additionally, vaccines do not confer the same levels of immunity as actually getting the disease itself. As such, by vaccinating early, it may protect a child from chicken pox at a young age only to leave them open to contracting it later in life when it really is a much more dangerous disease.

  5. Nathan
    April 14, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    And exactly HOW dangerous is measles?

    Measles has a mortality of 1-3 deaths per 1000 cases in the modern first world, depending on the country and the study. Here is one:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106092

    As Nathan pointed out on a previous post, there were only 500 deaths from measles annually BEFORE the vaccine was introduced.

    That was reported deaths, Steve. Actual measles cases as well as measles-related deaths were under-reported and much higher. Reporting systems were poor back then. Nowadays, reporting is more accurate, and the mortality ratio is shown to be around 1 per 1000 or more, as shown in the study above. There are other factors than can affect this number that we can get into if you like. Also, you are still ignorning nonfatal measles complications.

    There are more claims for vaccine damage per year than that.

    But there are far less actual cases of vaccine damage than that.

    As such, by vaccinating early, it may protect a child from chicken pox at a young age only to leave them open to contracting it later in life when it really is a much more dangerous disease.

    It is possible, but overall it is far more likely that they will never have wild chickenpox in their whole life, because chickenpox has become rare. This is because we are vaccinating the people who are the primary vectors of the disease – children. Keep in mind that, regardless of age of cases, we have reduced chickenpox deaths from 100 annually to 1.

  6. Nathan
    April 14, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Mo, it is true that people who recently had a live vaccine (though not other vaccines) should not be in close contact with certain severly immunocompromised individuals, like bone marrow transplant recipients. But the wild diseases are much more lethal to them than the vaccine strain. They benefit immensely from everyone else being vaccinated, so they don’t catch these diseases themselves.

  7. Steve Michaels
    April 14, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Perhaps part of the reason why the death rates are seemingly higher today is that the vaccine does impart protection in healthier immune systems but leaves the more vulnerable susceptible anyway, thus the ones who actually contract the disease have higher rates of complication due to already existing underlying health problems…

  8. Nathan
    April 14, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    In addition, we don’t vaccinate certain immunocompromised individuals, and we don’t vaccinate infants under a year, and they may be likely to be associated with higher mortality. This could be a factor, at least to some extent. It would be interesting to see how many recent measles deaths have been in the immunocompromised.

    But the actual reported mortality rate has not changed. Back when there were 500 reported measles deaths, there were only about 500,000 reported measles cases. that’s a 1:1000 ratio, just like today.

  9. Steve Michaels
    April 14, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    By the way Nathan, what’s your take on the embedded video? You know from my perspective it is quite disparaging of people who disagree with Killian and the model is flawed in many ways. For example, he jumps from 90% infection rates to 100% with no explanation and then translates that to deaths, as if infection of a given pathogen equals death. He also does that horrible calling of names, using emotive labels and portraying people like me as whiny tantrum throwing children. I must admit, I found it offensive. Especially since the simplistic computer model assumes that people are stationary and never travel and interact between other members of the community.

    Basically, I guess I am wondering if from your perspective do you find this kind of video helpful towards conveying a positive message of vaccination?

  10. Nathan
    April 14, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    Basically, I guess I am wondering if from your perspective do you find this kind of video helpful towards conveying a positive message of vaccination?

    Helpful, yes. Perfect, no.

    I think it is a very nice illustration of how herd immunity works, but you are right that assuming the diseaes “killed off” the population is a faux pas. If he had indicated that his particular fictional pathogen had a 100% kill rate, it would have been a bit better.

    For example, he jumps from 90% infection rates to 100% with no explanation

    I think I know what you are saying, and I noted that as well. When 10% were vaccinated there were survivors and then they kind of blinked out.

    He also does that horrible calling of names, using emotive labels and portraying people like me as whiny tantrum throwing children. I must admit, I found it offensive.

    Welcome to the world of internet debates. Where some people make funny voices and others portray pediatricians as cannibals.

    Especially since the simplistic computer model assumes that people are stationary and never travel and interact between other members of the community.

    I’m not sure this is a valid criticism. Each asterisk is a representation of a person, and the asterisks around it would represent the people you come into contact with while you are going about your day. It would, however be fun to see a more complex program where the asterisks are milling about and mingling. Heck, let’s make a herd immunity add-on for The Sims.

    I have seen another, similar, video that does not have these errors and I think was more professional in tone. I will see if I can dig it up. Regardless, I think it is an excellent example of how herd immunity works, and how it is not some fantastic theory, but simple math.

  11. Chris
    April 14, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    I also found Shane’s tone to be annoying. Plus the 100% kill rate was not realistic, though it does get the point across. I believe you can download the script and play with the numbers in the simulation. (an aside, one of his kids is autistic)

    This is another animation:

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/herd-immunity-0

  12. Nathan
    April 14, 2011 at 11:19 pm

    Thanks, Chris. That’s the one I was thinking of.

  13. Steve Michaels
    April 15, 2011 at 4:23 am

    There was also the statement that the vaccinated had a 10% chance of illness (death), but on the 50% model ALL died. Certainly out of the 400 portrayed, 200 vaccinated, according to his own parameters 180 should have survived. That is why I don’t find it helpful. Its a bit like trying to demonstrate the danger of a car engine fire by blowing the car up with TNT. The demonstration doesn’t bear any resemblance to what it purports to be demonstrating.

    “I’m not sure this is a valid criticism. Each asterisk is a representation of a person, and the asterisks around it would represent the people you come into contact with while you are going about your day”

    I think you are being a bit protectionist on this one. He doesn’t say that the dots are ‘the people we come in contact with’, he specifically states that they are vaccinated individuals, thus showing a view of society in which we all stand still. It is these kinds of oversimplifications that render this type of demonstration suspect at best.

    “Welcome to the world of internet debates. Where some people make funny voices and others portray pediatricians as cannibals.”

    I think you realize that after complaints about the tone of that cartoon, it was removed. You have linked to a blog commenting on it which actually shows appreciation for the fact that the poster removed it, recognizing that it was distasteful.

    “I think it is an excellent example of how herd immunity works, and how it is not some fantastic theory, but simple math.”

    How can it be an example of simple math when the equations used are morbidity equals mortality and 90% equals 100%? It’s a bit like saying, 3 now equals 4, therefore 3+3=8 and calling it good math…

  14. Steve Michaels
    April 15, 2011 at 4:28 am

    Sorry to put this in another comment but I just reread your analysis:

    “Each asterisk is a representation of a person, and the asterisks around it would represent the people you come into contact with while you are going about your day.”

    It would seem that you are doing exactly what Killian has done. In one sentence you have gone from (asterisk = person) to (asterisk=group of people). It really can’t be both. Mathematical models require one thing above all else to be valid: consistent definition of the constants and variables. Without that, coupled with consistent application of mathematical principles, it is nothing more that pseudo-mathematics posing as mathematics.

  15. Nathan
    April 15, 2011 at 10:22 am

    There was also the statement that the vaccinated had a 10% chance of illness (death), but on the 50% model ALL died.

    Yes, this is what I was trying to comment on when I said “I think I know what you are saying…” above. But what I believe is happening with the simulation is that each infected person around the vaccinated person represented a 10% chance of infecting the person. This would be valid for an unvaccinated person, but a vaccinate person, if immune, would be immune regardless of the number of exposures. The simulation does not seem take this into account.

    I think you realize that after complaints about the tone of that cartoon, it was removed.

    Yes, but the tone of that cartoon clearly crossed a line that this one does not. I read a lot of antivaccine material, and though it is frequently juvenile and insulting, it doesn’t bother me. Like Mike Adams’ Vaccine Zombie video, which I quite like. Despite the juvenile tone of both this and Adams, they are both good videos. Although this video has actual useful information.

    How can it be an example of simple math when the equations used are morbidity equals mortality and 90% equals 100%? It’s a bit like saying, 3 now equals 4, therefore 3+3=8 and calling it good math…

    The morbidity=mortality concern is irrelevent to the mathematics of herd immunity. He is using a 100% lethal virus as his pathogen. It is dramatic, but does not change the factors of contagiousness.

    I think I addressed the second concern above. Even if we did it how you like, you would end up with virtually all vaccinated individuals, which would illustrate the importance of vaccines even more. I would like to see a separate color for unvaccinated by choice and unvaccinated by age/medical condition, and give those groups a higher rate of death. I agree that his vaccinated individuals should not be dying at the rate they are, but it would not change the point. The point is to demonstrate how well an outbreak is contained in a highly vaccinated population. It is simplified, but very illustrative.

  16. Nathan
    April 15, 2011 at 10:31 am

    No, I am assuming that each asterisk is one person. The asterisks around that one represent individual contacts that the first asterisk makes during the outbreak. For an asterisk in the middle of the screen, that would be eight individuals around it. If you like, you could imagine a little animation of the asterisk going over and touching each surrounding asterisk. At that point the next asterisk has a 10% or 90% chance of being infected, depending on vaccination status. At least, that is the impression I get from the video. I’m not skilled in reading computer code.

  17. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 15, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Mo – That is true, but you KNOW when the child has been vaccinated.

    The most infectious time for measles and chickenpox is right at the time the child barely shows symptoms … and how will you know that that cute toddler isn’t shedding wild virus with every breath?

  18. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 15, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Steve – There is a puzzling paradox of vaccination that has been known since the very early days. Cause is still unknown. The “case fatality rate” (percent of those who get X die of X) is almost always higher when you examine persons who have been vaccinated against “X”, and compare them to the overall case fatality rates the general population (vaxed and unvaxed together).

    Various hypotheses are that some of these persons had a flawed immune system and didn’t make antibodies, they made antibodies to the wrong part of the vaccine molecules, etc. This paradox is still under investigation.

    But it doesn’t mean vaccines are useless or dangerous. The overall morbidity rates (how many get X) and mortality rates (how many die of X) drop dramatically when you reach herd immunity levels of vaccination against X.

    Getting vaccinated is akin to taking the risk that your seat belt will kill you by trapping you in a blazing car, and going unvaccinated is like driving without the seat belt because you fear the remote possibility of being trapped in a burning car so much that you are willing to go head-first through the windshield in a fender-bender.

  19. Nathan
    April 15, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    “But what I believe is happening with the simulation is that each infected person around the vaccinated person represented a 10% chance of infecting the person. This would be valid for an unvaccinated person, but a vaccinate person, if immune, would be immune regardless of the number of exposures.”

    Let me fix this – This would be valid for an unvaccinated person (with a 90% chance of infection for each contact, not 10% as in a vaccinated person).

  20. Steve Michaels
    April 15, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Nathan I see you point but it is still incorrect. We all come in contact with myriad people throughout the day, not just a few. Also, you have bought the prize fighter analogy hook, line and sinker. The truth is that one the body has been exposed to the virus, the immune system starts working to counter it. You cannot deny this as this is the very basis of vaccine theory as well. The prize fighter analogy is wrong. It is not like the immune system has to deal with 10 pathogens at once as the fighter deals with 10 opponents. It is the immune system fighting the same pathogen 10 times, although after each exposure the immune system should be better equipped to handle the next exposure. So the fighter is meeting the SAME opponent 10 times and each time becoming even more capable of beating it. In truth, if you buy the prize fighter theory as proposed you should be COMPLETELY against and polyvalent vaccines as they really do launch up to 5 (currently) pathogens at the immune system at one time.

    The more you try to explain and the more I analyse Killian’s video, the more I think it actually undermines the pro-vax argument. As for the other video, it has the same flaws, ie. static assumption of contacts and no references to virulence to substantiate the simulation.

  21. Nathan
    April 15, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    We all come in contact with myriad people throughout the day, not just a few.

    Agreed, this is simplified. One could design a more complex version where the little asterisks run around and interact with hundreds of others around the grid. That would presumably increase the rate of spread of the disease. Of course, the overall population would have to be larger.

    It is the immune system fighting the same pathogen 10 times, although after each exposure the immune system should be better equipped to handle the next exposure.

    In some cases, I might agree with you. But in the case of measles or chickenpox, everybody gets it. You can be exposed a bunch of times and not get it, but eventually, virtually everyone will. Your immune system does not get better at fighting it off with each exposure, only after you actually contract the full on disease (except in rare cases). With a disease like this, it would be like fighting all those fighters in a row. In some diseases, you could get a subclinical version of the infection and then be immune, but this simulation does not represent that kind of disease. But the disease is uniformly fatal in the example. No one is catching the disease and living to be immune to it another day.

    You are focusing on its imperfections in simulating an outbreak. It is not meant to simulate an outbreak. It is meant to illustrate the underlying principles, and the differences between an outbreak in a highly vs. moderately vaccinated population.

    My major criticism with the program is that herd immunity is not very important without considering those that are unimmunized by necessity. The program does not demonstrate how these children are protected, so it kind of misses the point. Adding a variable to make a percentage of unvaccinated into “not by choice” unvaccinated, and making them blue asterisks, would make the program a lot more poignant.

  22. Steve Michaels
    April 15, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Interesting and oddly reminiscent of my youth when I was involved in a car accident as a passenger and the car rolled off US101 in California. I was not wearing my seat belt and was thrown into the back seat of the car when the car landed on the passenger side roof pillar, crushing it down to dashboard level. Had I been wearing my seatbelt I would have died, since I wasn’t I walked away with minor cuts and a slight knee injury.

    My point is this, and this is true of any vaccine damaged child, you can quote the statistics all day long, but when you are speaking to what you call the statistically insignificant or the victims of the acceptable level of harm, you will always hit a brick wall. Mass medicating is actually a violation of international law. To inject something in to an otherwise healthy individual without properly assessing the risk in EVERY case, immuno status, mitochondrial function, allergens, etc. is plainly medical malpractice in my book. If an accident patient turned up at the ER with acute loss of blood and the attending physician ordered a transfusion of AB+ without confirming the patient’s blood type and the patient died from the blood because they were O-, it would be malpractice. Absolutely no testing is done to determine risk before injecting children with this stuff, and even after adverse events in early vaccines doctors still recommend the full course. There really is no excuse for that.

  23. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 15, 2011 at 9:55 pm

    Steve Michaels :Steve, you gave an example of why car crash anecdotes make lousy safety science. Yes, you wouldda been dead, but in similar circumstances, given just a tiny change in the physics of the crash, you wouldda been thrown out and had the car land on you, or smashed you head on a rock.

    To inject something in to an otherwise healthy individual without properly assessing the risk in EVERY case, immuno status, mitochondrial function, allergens, etc. is plainly medical malpractice in my book.Do you test the wiring and the circuit connections in every appliance you buy? Did you inspect the wiring in your house or apartment? The chances of dying in a fire caused by a short circuit are higher than the chances of dying of being vaccinated.

    If an accident patient turned up at the ER with acute loss of blood and the attending physician ordered a transfusion of AB+ without confirming the patient’s blood type and the patient died from the blood because they were O-, it would be malpractice.

    Doctors don’t order transfusion blood by type, nor do they confirm blood type. They order a certain number of units to be transfused and it’s up to the blood bank staff (which has on occasion been me) to find appropriately compatible blood in a medically reasonable time.

    If there is no time for the blood bank to type the patient’s blood and do a proper crossmatch before the patient dies, the doc signs on the line that it’s an emergency sufficiently important to take the risk and the blood bank cheerfully hands over O NEGATIVE in all cases.

    Yes, there is a small risk that the patient will have an oddball antibody to one of the units being transfused, but the certainty of their dying in hypovolemic shock before crossmatching can be done overrides it.

    Absolutely no testing is done to determine risk before injecting children with this stuff, and even after adverse events in early vaccines doctors still recommend the full course. There really is no excuse for that.

    They take the patient history: certain allergies and pre-existing conditions are known to be risk factors – the vaccine is not given to those children. That’s why vaccinating as many OTHER children is important, so they can’t spread disease to those who cannot be vaccinated.

    You would have to define “adverse event” more tightly. I have “adverse events” after every vaccination: a day or two of pain and fever, sometimes headaches. Compared to a couple of WEEKS or longer of being sick and a significant risk of dying … it’s worth it.

  24. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 15, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    This would be valid for an unvaccinated person, but a vaccinate person, if immune, would be immune regardless of the number of exposures.
    Not necessarily. Massive exposure to a pathogen can overwhelm the immune system and get a rip-roaring infection going.

  25. Steve Michaels
    April 16, 2011 at 7:23 am

    I think you will find, at least anecdotally, that your claim that “They take the patient history: certain allergies and pre-existing conditions are known to be risk factors – the vaccine is not given to those children” is untrue. There are reports after reports from parents who’s children had adverse reactions to the FIRST vaccines and the doctors minimized the issue and said it was normal and continued with the future vaccines and the children ended up damaged for life, even though there were multiple signs of issues.

    And please don’t be so insulting as to compare children to kitchen appliances. Appliances are machines essentially and once they have been tested for safety, the assembly line end product can be reasonably assumed to be safe. Children are biological beings and each one is different and each one can react differently to similar compounds.

  26. Nathan
    April 17, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    I think you will find, at least anecdotally

    Here is your first problem.

    your claim that “They take the patient history: certain allergies and pre-existing conditions are known to be risk factors – the vaccine is not given to those children” is untrue.

    It is not untrue. There are numerous true adverse reactions to vaccines that are contraindications to further vaccinations, and a doctor that proceeded with vaccinations in such a situation would indeed be committing malpractice. But you are probably referring to things that you personally think are adverse reactions to vaccines when in fact they are not, and then things that you personally think are vaccine damage when in fact it is not.

    If you were really looking at lots of anecdotes, you would find far more parents who had similar events after vaccinating and then went on to have no further problems with vaccination. That is because these kinds of events you are thinking of are not “issues” that indicate future “damage for life.”

    To inject something in to an otherwise healthy individual without properly assessing the risk in EVERY case, immuno status, mitochondrial function, allergens, etc. is plainly medical malpractice in my book.

    To “properly” assess all those things would require a battery of tests, including biopsies, to avoid a less than one in a million chance of permanent harm. The risk of testing would outweigh the risk of the vaccine, not to mention the expense. And you would still have the problem of false positives and negatives.

    If it were possible to effectively screen for these things in every individual, we would already be doing it (as we do with conditions like PKU), regardless of the vaccine issue. These conditions would be extremely useful to know early on in every child. But such noninvasive, cost-effective screening tests do not yet exist. But even lacking that information, it is still much safer to vaccinate than not.

  27. Nathan
    April 17, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    True, but I don’t think these are the kinds of exposures represented in the program. Good point, though.

  28. Steve Michaels
    April 18, 2011 at 11:14 am

    So much for the iron-clad peer-reviewed guarantees that ‘prove’ safety:

    On peer-reviewed research:

    “it is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of the New England Journal of Medicine.”

    http://www.facebook.com/notes/antiutilitarian-prohealth/peer-review-journals-and-coi/210507848968297

    On vaccine safety:

    Poul Thorsen, the principal coordinator of multiple studies funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) used to deny a vaccine/autism link was indicted on April 13th on 13 counts of fraud and 9 counts of money-laundering. The charges relate to funding for work he conducted for the CDC, which claimed to disprove associations between the mercury-based vaccine preservative, thimerosal, and increased rates of autism.

    http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=693716&Itemid=29

  29. Nathan
    April 18, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    You know, Steve, we usually start out having an interesting and lively discussion about the topic at hand (in this case herd immunity and computer simulations) but it generally devolves into a gish gallop of peripherally related links that come to your mind (or perhaps your blog feed).

    Why not discuss it in the last thread, because, well, Thorsen did one study on thimerosal, which is in some flu vaccines, so I guess it is at least somewhat related to the topic of ingredients in vaccines.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/07/listing-vaccine-ingredients-and-understanding-them-theres-a-difference/#comment-2695

    Oh, wait. You already posted it on that thread too.

  30. Steve Michaels
    April 19, 2011 at 7:46 am

    Actually, I posted it here first. And yes it is somewhat peripheral to this topic, but with ALL topics about vaccination, quality of research is of paramount importance. And, far from being isolated, Thorsen use the tainted epidemiology studies to publish three different articles promoting the alleged safety of thimerosal, AND he is facing 13 counts of fraud, that would imply 13 separately funded studies commissioned by the CDC. FOIA requests PROVE that Thorsen admitted that the studies omitted data that would have likely changed the overall results of the study if included. FOIA also prove that after Thorsen’s admission to the CDC, the CDC chose to use undue influence to publish the research even though they already knew that the results were questionable and some reputable journals refused to publish the studies. But don’t worry Nathan, there were no conspiracies here. Just facts that look conspiratorial to support vaccinations by undue regulatory influence over ‘independent journal’ editorial perogative while knowing that the results were likely flawed…

  31. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 19, 2011 at 9:20 am

    The man was committing financial fraud – diverting what may have been legitimate payments to his personal account, or inventing reasons for those payments. No one has accused him of scientific fraud, just money laundering.

    If you remove all the studies in which Thorsen was involved, that does not change the conclusion, which is that thimerosol has nothing to do with autism. Other researchers have duplicated the findings in the studies that Thorson was involved in … in several countries, with no CDC involvement.

  32. Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 19, 2011 at 9:35 am

    Steve says, “AND he is facing 13 counts of fraud, that would imply 13 separately funded studies commissioned by the CDC.

    WRONG! Here’s the indictment: http://adventuresinautism.com/ThorsenIndictment.pdf

    The indictment charges Poul Thorsen, with 13 counts of wire fraud and nine counts of money laundering. (see page 5, the table of wire fraud counts and page 7 for the money laundering counts.)

    13 separate instances where he sent money, or induced his university to send money, from Denmark to the accounts in the USA for work supposedly done by the CDC. And the “money laundering” is for transferring money from one account to another or withdrawing it.

    His work on the autism research is immaterial, and it is detailed only because the numbered paragrpahs (those are not the counts) are to set out the facts of the case.

  33. Steve Michaels
    April 19, 2011 at 10:07 am

    Tsu Dho Nimh:

    You seem to have failed to address this part:

    “FOIA requests PROVE that Thorsen admitted that the studies omitted data that would have likely changed the overall results of the study if included. FOIA also prove that after Thorsen’s admission to the CDC, the CDC chose to use undue influence to publish the research even though they already knew that the results were questionable and some reputable journals refused to publish the studies. But don’t worry Nathan, there were no conspiracies here. Just facts that look conspiratorial to support vaccinations by undue regulatory influence over ‘independent journal’ editorial perogative while knowing that the results were likely flawed…”

    Care to comment? The man is unethical and the proof came out due to the fraud.

  34. Nathan
    April 20, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    It’s not easy to comment when neither you nor the SafeMinds’ spin piece link to the original emails, but I managed to dig them up.

    “FOIA requests PROVE that Thorsen admitted that the studies omitted data that would have likely changed the overall results of the study if included.

    That’s a stretch. There is no email of Thorsen saying anything about data, certainly not deliberately “omitting” data. There is an email from Lauritsen commenting to Madsen and Thorsen the study does not include 2001 data. Second, as far as I can tell, the data in question was available after the study was completed and they were working on the manuscript. Third, the document itself is heavily redacted and the structure of the sentence in question is unusual: “The incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001.” (Emphasis mine.) That would suggest they were decreasing in the years prior, when they in fact were not, making that sentence difficult to interperet without the redacted content.

    But Thimerosal had been out of the vaccines in Denmark since 1992, so even if the incidence had come down in 2001, it would not be evidence of a Thimerosal connection, especially since the increase in autism diagnosis has continued apace in recent years in both in Denmark and the US.

    Besides, as Tsu Doh Nimh said, if you are inclined you can throw all Thorsen-associated studies in a pond and it makes nary a dent in the strength of the evidence on this issue. All but the most die-hard obstinant antivaxers have moved on from the thimerosal chestnut. You should do so as well if you want to be taken seriously. The toxins gambit is much more nebulous and easier to support with pseudoscience.

    But don’t worry Nathan, there were no conspiracies here. Just facts that look conspiratorial to support vaccinations by undue regulatory influence over ‘independent journal’ editorial perogative while knowing that the results were likely flawed…”

    I love it. A cover letter by the CDC, who collaborated on the manuscript according to the acknowledgements, is using “undue regulatory influence over ‘independent journal’ editorial perogative” It’s especially funny when the most damning sentence that SafeMinds can come up is that the study is a “strong piece of evidence that thimerosal is not linked to autism.”

  35. cia parker
    December 27, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    The decision whether or not to vaccinate must be left entirely in the hands of the parents, who have a duty to carefully study all the available data, both on the diseases and the vaccines. It is unfair to try to pressure them by saying they must vaccinate to promote herd immunity. Neither whooping cough nor measles is usually a dangerous disease: both my daughter and I had pertussis in 2001 (both of us had been vaccinated, she with the DTaP at two, four, and six months, me with the DTP many times in childhood), she had chicken pox in 2002, and I had measles and chicken pox in the 1960s. The diseases were uncomfortable but not dangerous, and I’m glad we developed permanent immunity and stronger immune systems. To say that I have an obligation to give her the DTaP or the MMR to keep other people’s children from getting usually mild diseases means that you do not care if she develops paralysis, even worse autism than she has (from the hep-B vaccine), asthma, or epilepsy. You are not going to care for her every day for the rest of her life.
    You would have to read David Kirby’s Evidence of Harm to have the right to say that thimerosal is not linked to autism, and as a minimum Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s Callous Disregard to have the right to say the MMR (which never had thimerosal since it’s a live vaccine) does not cause autism. Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s title has been restored, and an article in the British journal Nature last month strongly supported the professionality and accuracy of his case study suggesting the MMR may cause bowel disease and autism. (Or course, for us refusers, it is a certainty.) If you are unwilling to look at the reams of scientific evidence and the thousands of cases of extreme damage caused by vaccines, then how can you participate in this discussion?
    There had been 26,074 cases of measles in Europe as of October 26, with nine deaths. That means the chances of dying of measles there has been one in 2,897, much lower than the one in a thousand rate the CDC has been asserting for many years. It may be that crisis care in hospitals for the seriously ill is better, or it may be that more people are taking vitamin A and NOT taking fever reducers like Tylenol. Giving fever reducers for measles increased the death rate five-fold in an epidemic in Africa in the 1970s, and it makes sense. Fever serves the purpose of incinerating the viruses, and if you reduce the fever artificially, you make it MUCH harder for the immune system to do its job, with sometimes fatal results. It is very likely that many of the deaths from measles may be attributed to the use of anti-pyretics, since it is standard medical practice to recommend them.
    Of course it is equally tragic for a child to die from measles or from the MMR, but it must be recognized universally that both are possibilities. Many of us, especially those of us like me who have had the natural disease, would rather accept the minuscule risk of death or damage from the disease than the considerable risk of autism, bowel disease, seizures, bacterial meningitis, respiratory arrest, brain edema, cardiac arrest, diabetic ketoacidosis, subarachnoid hemmorrhage, leukoencephalopathy, thrombocytopenia (all taken from VAERS reports of events happening the same day or within a few days of the MMjR).

  36. Kelly
    December 27, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    To argue that measles is not a dangerous disease and then mention the 9 deaths in Europe indicates a level of delusion I have not seen before. To reasonable people a disease that can kill someone would be considered dangerous.

    Absolutely examine the evidence which shows no causal link between vaccines and autism. A list of studies can be found here: http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf

    A review of available evidence and vaccine adverse events can be found here: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

    A list of credible websites for vaccine information can be found here: http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

  37. cia parker
    December 28, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    Kelly,
    Both the vaccines and the vaccine-preventable diseases can kill or cause permanent injury. I believe that and find it delusional that you seem to reject the idea that any vaccine has ever damaged anyone. I haven’t encountered anyone else who goes that far.
    Nine measles deaths out of 26,074 is very low, and we don’t know if they occurred in previously healthy people or in the immune-compromised. Dr. Randall Neustaedter said: “The death rate from wild-type measles is very low, the incidence of serious sequelae is insignificant, and the general benefit to the child who recovers from the disease and to his contacts and descendants, is very great. Consequently, even if the measles vaccine could be shown to reduce the risk of death or serious complications from the disease, it still could not justify the high probability of autoimmune diseases, cancer, and whatever else may result from the propagation of latent measles virus in human tissue culture for life.”
    Vaccines are causing autism now at a rate of one in eighty-eight in Missouri now, up, of course, from one in ten thousand thirty years ago. If you refuse to look at VAERS cases, which only represent a small fraction of the estimated cases that occur, then you can have no idea of the number of deaths caused by vaccines. Your information that shows no connection between vaccines and autism is simply incorrect. If you refuse to accept reports from thousands of parents as well as medical professionals like Dr. Andrew Wakefield of healthy, normal children who got the MMR or another vaccine and within days became autistic, then how can you participate in this discussion? Scandinavia has a fraction of the autism we do, presumably because they vaccinate a lot less, and certainly don’t give the HBV routinely at birth, only two other countries do, and they all have a much lower rate of autism than we do.We vaccinate the most: except for maybe Great Britain, is there any other environmental factor that is appreciably different here than in other first-world countries? A scientist would say this correlation doesn’t absolutely mean causation, but it looks very suspicious and should certainly be investigated carefully, especially since there is so much evidence that the vaccines cause untoward immune reactions in many cases. (In my opinion, the evidence is in, and they show that the vaccines are much more dangerous than the vaccine-preventable diseases.)
    We used to have a very good infant mortality rate, and still have an excellent live birth rate, but we have a higher rate of infant deaths in the first six months of life than any other first-world country. Our rate of mortality in the first year of life was very good in 1950. It’s the myriad vaccines we give young infants now that are causing our mortality rate to have surpassed that of any other first-world country. Japan had a middling infant mortality rate until it halted DTP vaccine for infants in 1975 after it caused many deaths there. Within a couple of years, their rate of infant mortality had become the lowest in the world.
    Most of the people still getting polio in a few third-world countries have already been completely and appropriately vaccinated for polio, many of them multiple times, which of course is improper. Innumerable polio vaccination campaigns have been conducted there in the last fifty years. The tropics are an unhealthy environment for anyone to live in, but most of the people who die in epidemics there are immune-compromised to start with because of malnourishment, which may be because of long-lasting droughts, but is fundamentally caused by overpopulation. The WHO would spend its resources better by promoting birth control and methods of improving local food production.
    I’m going to refer to VAERS reports now, which I know you reject, but there is really no other reference point for a logical risk/benefit comparison. There have been over 60,000 adverse event reports (again, a fraction of the estimated total) and over 300 outright deaths from the MMR. If the death rate from natural measles in our decade is like that in Europe, 1 in 2,897, then that must be put to parents for them to decide whether or not to vaccinate. It would be excellent to promote a better way of keeping track of reactions, but it would mean mandating that every parent be told the symptoms of vaccine reaction and to be sure to report themif they occur, and then every doctor must be required to report every reaction. They are supposed to report to the VAERS now, but there is no penalty for failing to do so, and most of them don’t. It is very unscientific to decree from the beginning that harmful reactions are never caused by vaccines and if they occur, it must be coincidence. Sometimes correlation does mean causation.

  38. Kelly
    December 28, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Both the vaccines and the vaccine-preventable diseases can kill or cause permanent injury. I believe that and find it delusional that you seem to reject the idea that any vaccine has ever damaged anyone. I haven’t encountered anyone else who goes that far.

    And you still haven’t encountered anyone that has gone that far because it is a strawman. Vaccine injuries do occur, but at a much smaller rate than you think and death from vaccines is even more rare. The diseases injure and kill at a much, much, much higher rate.

    Consequently, even if the measles vaccine could be shown to reduce the risk of death or serious complications from the disease, it still could not justify the high probability of autoimmune diseases, cancer, and whatever else may result from the propagation of latent measles virus in human tissue culture for life.

    Except the MMR vaccine does not cause “autoimmune diseases, cancer, and whatever else may result from the propagation of latent measles virus”. In fact, measles virus is an lytic virus and does not have a latent phase. So your anti-vax guru has fed you misinformation, again.

    So you think that death from measles is perfectly acceptable, but fear the non-existent deaths and fantasy complications from the MMR and think I’m the delusional one. You have yet to acknowledge the real risks of the MMR and instead prefer to make up risks.

    Vaccines are causing autism now at a rate of one in eighty-eight in Missouri now, up, of course, from one in ten thousand thirty years ago.

    Oh for pete’s sake. How many times do you have to be told that vaccines don’t cause autism? Why is this information incorrect? Because it blows your position out of the water? Because it goes against your beliefs? Because you said so? Sorry, cia, not good enough.

    If you refuse to accept reports from thousands of parents as well as medical professionals like Dr. Andrew Wakefield of healthy, normal children who got the MMR or another vaccine and within days became autistic, then how can you participate in this discussion?

    if you are ignorant of the research that shows that vaccines don’t cause autism and that the temporal association is merely coincidence, how can you participate in this discussion? If you continue to make up your own “facts” and ignore reality, how can you participate in this discussion? If you hero-worship Wakefield who lost is medical license for misconduct, how can you participate in this discussion? You are the one coming at this from an ignorant point of view and refuse to learn. You cite VAERS again, after repeatedly being told that VAERS reports do not indicate causation. Your use of these reports in a risk/benefit analysis is flawed because VAERS reports do not accurately indicate risk from the vaccine. Yes, sometimes correlation does equal causation, but after numerous studies, this has found not to be true. When are you going to wake up and realize this?

    I haven’t even reached the point of having a discussion with you cia because I’m still correctly the misinformation, misconception and logical fallacies in your argument. Until you get your facts straight and stop making up crap, you really are participating in any type of discussion.

  39. Shane
    February 22, 2012 at 8:36 am

    What are we talking about here? Ebola. What disease has 100% mortality?
    What about natural immunity? What about measures of death or disability due to vaccines added to the chart. If we would chart chickpox how many people would actually die? Very few

    This was poorly done misinformation

  40. cia parker
    February 22, 2012 at 10:36 am

    You didn’t mention that the Somali community in Minneapolis has the second-highest rate of autism in the world among its vaccinated children, one in 28. The highest rate is among Ugandan children in Germany. They have no word for autism in their language, because autism NEVER occurred in the pre-MMR and hep-B vaccine days in Somalia. No Somali child died from measles in the outbreak last year, and now the ones who had it are permanently immune.
    The pertussis vaccine is only 30-70% effective, depending on the composition and batch of the vaccine, as well as personal factors. This means that about half of vaccinated people can catch and transmit pertussis. Someone at a La Leche League meeting gave pertussis to my daughter when she was nine months old, although she had had DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months of age, and gave it to me. Most of the children who got pertussis in the outbreak in California two years ago had been appropriately vaccinated.
    You should quarantine your baby if he’s less than four months old and there’s pertussis in your community. Even vaccinated people could give it to him.
    You’re not going to be able to make those of us who have been vaccine-damaged submit to vaccination. There’s been an enormous push-back in Vermont, for example, against a bill that would make it harder for residents of Vermont to take a philosophical exemption from vaccines. They’ve all read about Vermont child Kaylenne Matten, who died from a routine flu vaccine in December.
    Those who are not worried about incurring damage from vaccines are free to damage themselves and their children, but you may not force others to damage ourselves. My daughter reacted to the hep-B vaccine with encephalitis and subsequent autism, I reacted to a tetanus vaccine with brachioplexal neuropathy and subsequent multiple sclerosis. The dangers from vaccines are real and many of them are devastating. Many of us prefer to take our chances with the vaccine-preventable diseases, which are either routine childhood diseases or very rare.

  41. cia parker
    February 22, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Measles has not been very dangerous for decades. I got it when I was six and it went through my elementary school, spring of 1963. No one was afraid of measles then, it was just one of those things. People did not flock to stand around the bed in a death watch, they would just say, “I’m sorry to hear he’s sick, you tell him to stay in bed, and we’ll see him at Little League next time.” Of course it kills many children in the third world, because the children are malnourished and not very healthy to start with. Until the problems of overpopulation and malnutrition are addressed, no other program is going to make much headway. It is a disease to be taken seriously, and does sometimes cause pneumonia, ear infections, and, much more rarely, encephalitis (but the vaccine does too). If a child is kept warm in bed in a darkened room to protect his eyes through the entire illness, including convalescence, kept well-hydrated, and given NO fever reducers like Tylenol, a previously healthy child will recover in about two weeks with permanent immunity and the ability to protect her own babies in their most vulnerable year with her breast milk. Vitamin A greatly reduces the chance of dangerous complications. In an outbreak of measles in Africa in the 1970s, the mortality rate of the children given fever reducers was much higher than in those children who didn’t get it. Tylenol prevents the immune system from doing its job. In the outbreak in Europe last year, nine people died, which was one in every three thousand. Of course that is a tragedy for them and their families, and a reason for everyone who gets it to observe the above protocol, but the lifelong autism and bowel disease frequently caused by the measles vaccine and the MMR are also tragedies. Even Wakefield’s primary accuser Brian Deer said a couple of months ago that he no longer believes that Wakefield committed fraud, so you’re not going to have Wakefield to kick around much longer.

  42. cia parker
    February 22, 2012 at 11:00 am

    One in nine children in the U.S. now has asthma, over 9 million under 18, but only one in fifty children who has not gotten the pertussis vaccine has asthma. In 1979, the CDC reported that only 2 million children under 14 had asthma. Many studies have established that the pertussis vaccine causes asthma (one of many is the Manitoba study 1998). Pertussis is no longer a killer disease except in some of those babies less than four months old who get it. Those babies should be quarantined to prevent it, and if they get it anyway, should be walked around all night or rocked on your shoulder to help them cough up the mucus from undeveloped airways. They should be kept warm, and alternating Pertudoron 1 and 2 will help, antibiotics will not help once the coughing has started.

    The mortality rates from asthma have risen in the last twenty years. Since most children with asthma got it as a result of a reaction to the pertussis vaccine, all of those terrifying, tragic deaths from asphixiation caused by asthma must be put in the balance with newborn deaths from pertussis on the other side.

  43. cia parker
    February 22, 2012 at 11:15 am

    Since you people who dis the reports made to the VAERS do not have any alternative method of tracking vaccine reactions, it appears that you want to just throw away all those children damaged or killed by vaccines. If all would-be scientists just recited the mantra correlation does not equal causation, then they’d just have to say, “Well, many of those drinking water from the river Thames are getting cholera, while those getting water from upriver above the sewage put into it from London are not getting it. Hum, well, since we all know that correlation does not equal causation, that factoid means absolutely nothing, so let’s just keep giving all those people with cholera snake oil and raise our prices.”
    My baby reacted with encephalitis to the hep-B vaccine, four days and nights of endless, inconsolable screaming from four to eight days old. She couldn’t eat because of the pain, and lost one pound two ounces in two days. The doctor tried to dismiss it as colic, which never occurs in the first week, and does not interfere with feeding. She was later diagnosed with autism. I had said I didn’t want her to get the vaccine, they didn’t even ask permission. The Merck Manual recognizes that vaccines can cause encephalitis. Who are you to say that “obviously” the brain damage caused by encephalitis is not at all the same type of damage that results in autism? Especially since the same experience has occurred in thousands of families. I reacted to a tetanus booster with both arms being paralyzed for two days. Brachioplexal neuropathy has been recognized since 1968 as a rare side effect from the tetanus vaccine. The tetanus vaccine has often caused staggering, optic neuritis, and paralysis in those who get it. I later developed multiple sclerosis, a disease that did not exist before the smallpox vaccine began to be used two hundred years ago. In exacerbations, I have often had staggering, optic neuritis and double vision, numbness, and in 1996 I had an attack that paralyzed my left arm and leg.
    You people dismiss the tens of thousands of reports made to the FDA-sponsored Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System because the staggering weight of them, if nothing else, calls into question the veracity of your claim that serious vaccine reactions are only one in a million, and certainly nothing that anyone ever sees.

  44. Chris
    February 22, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter also got measles in 1963. Why is your anecdote more valuable than his?

  45. Chris
    February 22, 2012 at 11:28 am

    citation needed

  46. Chris
    February 22, 2012 at 11:31 am

    You have been given the answer before. Again, what are the words you must understand before you click on the button to enter the database at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ? Tell us what it says.

  47. Kelly
    February 22, 2012 at 11:47 am

    What disease has 100% mortality? None, but rabies comes close with only a handful of survivors. Thank goodness we have a vaccine for rabies eh?

  48. Kelly
    February 22, 2012 at 11:57 am

    They’ve all read about Vermont child Kaylenne Matten, who died from a routine flu vaccine in December.

    Cia, the toxicology report indicates that Kaylynne did not die from the flu vaccine. You have been told this before, yet you continue to spread this falsehood.

    http://www.wcax.com/story/16619953/vt-health-commissioner-on-childs-toxicology-report

    You have also been shown repeatedly that autism and multiple sclerosis are not vaccine injuries. These are not real dangers of vaccines. These are lies that you like to tell.

  49. Kelly
    February 22, 2012 at 11:59 am
  50. Chris
    February 22, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Only an evil person would want children to suffer two weeks with dozens to hundreds of itchy open wounds from chicken pox, something that can be mostly prevented with a very safe vaccine. A vaccine that is much safer than the disease.

  51. Kelly
    February 22, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Yes, just to save time. Here is a link to another comment thread where it was explained to cia why she is wrong.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2011/11/29/its-not-cool-for-kids-to-skip-shots-but-go-to-school/

  52. Mindy
    March 30, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    All I have to say is Homeopathy. An infected, non-vaccinated person (child, baby, adult) can be treated very effectively and become stronger after having any disease. It does not matter the origin ( virus, bacteria, fungus, allergy ect). This whole article is based on conventional, western medicine ideas. Never taking into account that there is another medical paradigm that works way better than allopathy!

  53. Lawrence
    March 30, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    @Mindy – please enlighten us as to how “magic water” is supposed to cure anything?

  54. Snoozie
    March 30, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Chris, I think you are giving Cia far more credit than she deserves. I am betting she has never clicked on the button to enter the VAERS website because she does not get her VAERS information from the VAERS website but from an anti-vaccine site like NVIC or such.

  55. March 30, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    To me this is all about personal freedom and the right to raise our own children as we see fit. A healthy diet rich in a variety of fruits and veggies supports healthy immunity and it can be assumed that kids who eat healthy get sick (and carry disease) less often. Does that make it my business how other people feed their kids?

    If we get sufficient amounts of certain vitamins, our immune systems are more likely to function optimally. Does this fact give me the right to guilt trip other parents over not giving their children the right vitamin supplements?

    Sunlight also enhances immunity. Do I forbid my child to assosciate with pale kids and try to shame their parents over depriving their offspring sunlight?

    We could sit here all day and figure out a thousand factors that might make certain children more risky than others to play with, or we could use our common sense, do what we see fit to protect our kids and let others do the same, and ENJOY our lives.

    If you really believe vaccines are so great, have your child vaccinated, but don’t try to guilt trip me out of following my intuition and common sense which are both telling me that the risks associated with vaccines far outweigh the risks associated with the diseases they supposedly prevent.

    If, in order for a vaccine to most effectively protect your kid against from a disease, all or most of her peers have to be vaccinated too, then perhaps vaccines aren’t really the best line of defense against disease after all. Parents who are so worried about other people making their children sick should strongly consider homeschooling. It’s a better education, anyways :)

    They might also want to consider never letting their offspring use public transportation, or go to the grocery store, or to the park, because there could be unvaccinated people lurking about, and we wouldn’t want to get *gasp!* sick!

    Maybe it’s time to take a deeper look at the much safer steps we can take to support our children’s immunity to a broad spectrum of disease, not just a few selected diseases. We already know general good nutrition, as well as specific foods can boost immunity. That general good health (managing stress, adequate sleep, physical activity) supports the immune system.

    Why not put all the money and resources wasted trying to cram vaccines down everyone’s throat into making information on safe and natural methods of promoting immunity that we can ALL agree on, more accessible.

    Instead of worrying so much about getting the 3rd world vaccinated, let’s put that energy into empowering them to eat better enabling them to drink uncontaminated water and then see what happens.

    I am curious. How many of you would support mandatory vaccinations? For everyone, provided there were no contraindications present. Should all newly approved vaccines be integrated into this mandatory vaccine schedule?

    A vaccine to prevent addiction is being developed. Clearly this alters brain functioning. Addicts pose health and safety risks to the public and are a huge expense to the taxpayer. Would you have your child’s brain premanently modified for the greater good of society? what about when they start rolling out the vaccines for depression, anxiety, shyness? At what point does the value of personal freedom outweigh the value of very limited “security”?

  56. Martin Hadley
    March 30, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    Dr Wakefield’s (and his peers) were cleared on appeal, his evidence has been corroborated in other research. Those who vilified and prosecuted him should be pursued and exposed.
    The Danish study should be re-done after the conviction of the researcher that did the original MMR/Autism study.
    Gut flora, genetic pre-disposition etc etc should be checked BEFORE ANY vaccine is given, especially now we know that the rise in autism parallels the rise vaccinations.
    Do no harm

  57. Chris
    March 30, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    We need evidence of: “Dr Wakefield’s (and his peers) were cleared on appeal,” Last I checked his papers are still retracted, and he is not allowed to practice medicine anywhere.

    His research has not been independently replicated.

    Thorsen was not the main researcher, and there are a dozen more studies from Finland, UK, Japan, USA and Canada, plus another couple of Danish studies that do not include Thorsen.

    Citation required for the actual tests that are recommended before vaccination.

  58. Mmom
    March 31, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    HA- HA- HA. Yes, we are all so stupid and don’t se obvious, do no have any common sense and have no mathematical skills………. If there were vaccine without junk in them I am sure nearly 100% of parents will do them. Pro-vaccine wonder what is going on while it is obvious. Get read of junk from vaccines and spend money on research for clean safer vaccines instead propaganda!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WAS INJURED BY VACCINES! Please try to convince me how safe they are and why should I think more about everybody else then about myself and my family!?… I was injected with flue vaccine (the main vaccine that gave me serious reactions and were dismissed as such until my doctor stopped that madness) over and over again against my will, was dragged by nurses in my school (that was in USSR) and injected without knowledge of my parents. Guess what, this country and all other countries are going to transform into Socialism and that what will happen to your children. Mark my words. It will be too late to debate about your rights then. It gives me chills when I hear those people saying about vaccine injured victims “There is only small percentage will get serious injuries and it is acceptable loss for greater good”. WHAT! Maybe for those who has none to loose, but for a parent who has an only child, it is 100% devastation. Even if you have 2 or 3, IT’S UNACCEPTABLE. PLEASE, turn around while you have time and demand making safe vaccines! Stop debates it will get us nowhere. PLEASE, do it for greater brighter FUTURE.

  59. Chris
    March 31, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Get read of junk from vaccines and spend money on research for clean safer vaccines instead propaganda!

    Please list that “junk” and the verifiable scientific literature that it causes harm. Just list the title, journal and date of the papers that support your statements.

  60. Mmom
    March 31, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    Here is the problem. There were no studies about all the fillers like Aluminum on infants and small children. Can you provide me one? You should give me evidence of it’s safety not me trying to prove that they are not safe, dear. I see it’s danger and other who faced reaction with “one size fits all” vaccination schedule of toxins filled vaccines…..aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Stainer-Scholte medium, modified Mueller’s growth medium, modified Mueller-Miller casamino acid medium (without beef heart infusion) (Tween-80) for DTaP……….aluminum hydroxide, yeast protein, phosphate buffers for HepB which giving to all new born the first day. And why? Are they so dangerous to others who has HIV or something else? That is pure insanity if you ask me. And I don’t trust a bit to those fake studies by manufactures. They care more about $$$$ not our health. Give me real independent studies, please. Also, check it for yourself. Get that mix I listed above (in SMALL traces as they say which is in basically all kids vaccines) and inject both at the time and repeat multiple times as it’s done to babies by modern schedule. I am sure you will fill weird at least, but they are babies. Have a heart at least. I am talking about toxic vaccines we have in present time and push the matter on government and manufactures to make them better, not to stop vaccinating everybody.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

  61. Chris
    March 31, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    How do you plan to get rid of the formaldehyde created in your body by normal cell metabolism? And where to get food grown in soil that does not contain aluminum? Aluminum is the third most common element on the earth’s crusts, and in the soil minerals.

    And exactly how are the ingredients in vaccines (which are in many other food products) worse than the actual diseases? Pertussis killed ten babies in California in 2010, measles causes injury or death in about one in a thousand cases and you should be familiar with this: Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease. (which involved over four thousand deaths).

    You are making a claim, therefore you must provide the citations. You can start with this list of over ten thousand papers found by using “vaccine safety” in the PubMed search box. We have no compelling reason to believe you until you can support your statements.

  62. Mmom
    April 1, 2012 at 1:53 am

    From the website you provided:
    Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children.
    ………………”The highest risk of association with aseptic meningitis was observed within the third week after immunisation with Urabe-containing MMR (risk ratio (RR) 14.28; 95% confidence interval (CI) from 7.93 to 25.71) and within the third (RR 22.5; 95% CI 11.8 to 42.9) or fifth (RR 15.6; 95% CI 10.3 to 24.2) weeks after immunisation with the vaccine prepared with the Leningrad-Zagreb strain. A significant risk of association with febrile seizures and MMR exposure during the two previous weeks (RR 1.10; 95% CI 1.05 to 1.15) was assessed in one large person-time cohort study involving 537,171 children aged between three months and five year of age. Increased risk of febrile seizure has also been observed in children aged between 12 to 23 months (relative incidence (RI) 4.09; 95% CI 3.1 to 5.33) and children aged 12 to 35 months (RI 5.68; 95% CI 2.31 to 13.97) within six to 11 days after exposure to MMR vaccine. An increased risk of thrombocytopenic purpura within six weeks after MMR immunisation in children aged 12 to 23 months was assessed in one case-control study (RR 6.3; 95% CI 1.3 to 30.1) and in one small self controlled case series (incidence rate ratio (IRR) 5.38; 95% CI 2.72 to 10.62). Increased risk of thrombocytopenic purpura within six weeks after MMR exposure was also assessed in one other case-control study involving 2311 children and adolescents between one month and 18 years (odds ratio (OR) 2.4; 95% CI 1.2 to 4.7). Exposure to the MMR vaccine was unlikely to be associated with autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, bacterial or viral infections.”

    Those are serious reactions they observed which accrued during short period of time. And of course they did not see association with autism, diabetes and other disease since that comes up months or even years later as effect accumulates or even been noticed right away. And I don’t have to support my statement with a paper. I have my own body as prove. OKAY!

    It seems like you don’t even read my comments, but just scan and see what you don’t like and jump in to prove me wrong. I am talking about improvement of vaccine. Don’t you want best and safest for your children, but I wonder if you even have any.

    “How do you plan to get rid of the formaldehyde created in your body by normal cell metabolism? And where to get food grown in soil that does not contain aluminum? Aluminum is the third most common element on the earth’s crusts, and in the soil minerals.”

    What body produces is not the same what children get injected. Body has an ability to get it out in amounts it produces natural way. Babies have very small bodies and not a such great cleansing system yet. The crazy amount of vaccines they get add up toxic overload. The same thing goes for Aluminum. Aluminum is in soil due to pollution and chemical fertilizers which are unhealthy already and, yes, go ahead add more to already overloaded little bodies then say it does not cause all those health problems nearly all kids have now days. I am personally yet to see a single healthy child besides few unvaccinated I personally know.

    “And exactly how are the ingredients in vaccines (which are in many other food products) worse than the actual diseases?”

    I am personally don’t eat any processed food (NONE), so I don’t get all those ingredients you consume and think it’s okay. I don’t say that diseases are not dangerous, but as I say, you did not read all my comments. I am saying it’s not safe to inject all that junk in little babies un top of what they get from toxic environment.

    You can argue you point of view as much as you want. You did not tell me anything new and gave me no solid prove so far and I did not see one yet from anyone. I am pretty sure you are working for pharmaceutical company or what ever agency surfing blogs and comment with usual propaganda. I’ve seen these comments a lot all over the internet and they are all the same like you were trained what to say. I said it all and don’t need to waist my time on pointless arguments about “benefits outweigh the risk”, “we all exposed to all toxin already”, and so on. I am brining up totally different subject and you constantly steering me in different direction (I guess you have it written down what to say).

    Give us clean safe vaccines and stop trying to convince us that it’s okay to sacrifice some babies for others. Is it so difficult to understand what I am saying? Did not we advanced technologically and scientifically yet? Is there might be better way to prevent disease or vaccines can be made cleaner and safer? Are we supposed to close our eyes and pretend nothing is happening and should not demand a better medicine? I guess not when big $$$ for corporation on the line.

  63. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 2:30 am

    From the website you provided:

    Which website? The one with over ten thousand papers? The MMR used in both the UK and the USA use the Jeryl Lynn strain of mumps, not Urabe.

    What you did was “cherry picking.” Which is very dishonest.

    Aluminum is in soil due to pollution and chemical fertilizers which are unhealthy already and, yes, go ahead add more to already overloaded little bodies then say it does not cause all those health problems nearly all kids have now days.

    Since when do they add feldspars to fertilizers? Aluminum is the third most common element on this planet’s crust, right after oxygen and silicon. It is the most common metal in the soil. Fertilizers use nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur and several other elements in smaller amounts. None of them aluminum.

    The amount of formaldehyde in a body is much more than any vaccine.

    I am talking about improvement of vaccine.

    Then speak intelligently about the vaccines, and offer real information and evidence on how to improve them. You would have posted real citations to support your statements and not cherry pick one study out several thousands.

    I suggest before you try to educate us some more that you take a basic chemistry and biology class. This would help you figure out what is real evidence and (hopefully) prevent the terrible errors that you have posted.

    Again, if you wish to discuss this intelligently, then post the studies that show the vaccine is worse than the disease. Even the MMR vaccine with the Urabe mumps (instead of the presently used Jeryl Lynn version) was safer than measles.

  64. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    If vaccines never cause multiple sclerosis, then why did France take it off the schedule for schoolchildren after so many got MS shortly after getting the hep-B vaccine? They did it because they thought there was a connection.
    You don’t know what killed Kaylynne Matten. It may have been the viruses in the flu vaccine, there may have been extraneous viruses in the vaccine, it may have been a reaction to the chemicals in the vaccine, or the vaccine may have weakened her immune system causing her to contract and succumb to an infection that would not otherwise have killed her. You don’t know, you’re just insulting me because that’s what you’re paid to do. It is obvious that this healthy liittle seven-year-old girl would still be healthy and about to fiinish first grade if she had not gotten that flu vaccine which killed her four days later.

  65. Kelly
    April 1, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    If vaccines caused multiple sclerosis, why can’t you link to any scientific evidence to support your claim? You can’t because you lie.

    We do know what killed Kaylynne Matten. It was in the toxicology report. Your post is just another example of how you make things up, cia parker.

    I’m not paid anything to correct your lies and misinformation, cia. I do that out of the goodness of my heart. And again, more evidence on how you just make things up.

    It is obvious that this healthy liittle seven-year-old girl would still be healthy and about to fiinish first grade if she had not gotten that flu vaccine which killed her four days later.

    Wait? I thought you just said we don’t know what killed her, so how is it obvious? You know someone is lying when they can’t keep their story straight.

  66. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    France take it off the schedule for schoolchildren after so many got MS shortly after getting the hep-B vaccine?

    Really? Then why is it on their schedule?

    From searching using “France” and “HepB” here, the results are:
    Region Country Antigen
    Description Schedule Comments
    EUR France HepB Hepatitis B vaccine 2, 3, 16-18 months;

    Though, considering there is a large measles outbreak in France with about a quarter being hospitalized and several deaths. It is not really a good idea to tout that country’s political decisions on vaccines.

  67. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    You said that vaccines never caused MS. Maybe you should look at this old article: Henry Miller, Wojciench Cendrowski, and Kurt Schapira. “Multiple Sclerosis and Vaccination,” British Medical Journal 2 (1967):210-13. They found that the vaccines for smallpox, yellow fever, typhoid, rabies, and TB sometimes caused MS.

  68. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    The journal Neurology 2004; 63:838-42 published an article which found a 3.1 increase in relative risk of MS after a hepatitis-B vaccination. This article has lots more devastating evidence of the harm caused by the hepatitis-B vaccine, besides the countless thousands of cases of autism it has caused, including in my daughter.

    http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/09/risks-of-hep-b-vaccine.html

  69. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    ““Multiple Sclerosis and Vaccination,” British Medical Journal 2 (1967):”

    Seriously? The HepB vaccine is using DNA technology decades ahead of that paper! Which of those vaccines is made with baker’s yeast and a gene plasmid? And since when did the American pediatric vaccine schedule include smallpox, yellow fever, typhoid, rabies, and TB?

  70. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    The journal Neurology 2004; 63:838-42 published an article which found a 3.1 increase in relative risk of MS after a hepatitis-B vaccination. .

  71. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    I had the flu last year, it came on suddenly one evening in March with chills and a fever of 103 degrees, body aches, headache, but I had to go to the funeral of an old friend the next day ninety miles away. I took homeopathic bryonia and oscillococciunum and was amazed that when I woke up in the middle of the night and took my temperature, it was normal, the fever was gone! And it didn’t come back, and I went to Mahlon’s funeral with no problem. You are totally free to ignore the power of homeopathy, Lawrence, but millions have found it to work miraculously well.

  72. Nathan
    April 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Right, because fevers never break on their own. And you don’t even know that you had influenza. Homeopathy – taking credit for for self-limiting illness since 1796.

  73. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    Mmom,
    Great post! I was damaged by vaccines too, the tetanus vaccine caused brachioplexal neuropathy, both arms paralyzed for two days and I later developed MS. My daughter got the hep-B vaccine at birth (which I had said I didn’t want), reacted with four days and nights of encephalitic screaming, and was later diagnosed with autism. I totally agree with you that the vaccines are filled with dangerous toxins, but that’s not the only problem. People’s immune systems often react with excessive inflammation and auto-immune disease just in reaction to the foreign proteins in vaccines, no, I’ll go further than that, just the foreign ingredients, all of which are antigenic and sometimes reactive, even vaccines like the MMR which never had mercury, aluminum, or formaldehyde are extremely destructive.
    And I guess you’ve realized that these people are impervious to reason, they’re hired guns, so they just do what they’re paid to do.

  74. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Replications of Dr. Wakefield and Dr. Walker-Jones’ Lancet study:
    Furlano R, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, Mc Garvey L, Thomson M, et al. “Colonic CD8 and T cell filtration with epithelial damage in children with autism.“ J Pediatr 2001;138:366-72.

    Sabra S, Bellanti JA, Colon AR. “Ileal lymphoid hyperplasia, non-specific colitis and pervasive developmental disorder in children”. The Lancet 1998;352:234-5.

    Torrente F., Machado N., Perez-Machado M., Furlano R., Thomson M., Davies S., Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH. “Enteropathy with T cell infiltration and epithelial IgG deposition in autism.” Molecular Psychiatry. 2002;7:375-382

    Wakefield AJ, Anthony A, Murch SH, Thomson M, Montgomery SM, Davies S, Walker-Smith JA. “Enterocolitis in children with developmental disorder.” American Journal of Gastroenterology 2000;95:2285-2295

    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Wakefield AJ. “Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.” Journal of Clinical Immunology, 2003;23:504-517.

    Papers Replicating The Original Finding

    Another series of papers replicated the findings of The Royal Free Hospital London’s 1998 Lancet paper which journalist Brian Deer and The Sunday Times have falsely claimed is discredited:-

    Gonzalez, L. et al., “Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with gastro-Intestinal Symptoms“. Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr, 2005;69:19-25.

    Balzola, F., et al., “Panenteric IBD-like disease in a patient with regressive autism shown for the first time by wireless capsule enteroscopy: Another piece in the jig-saw of the gut-brain syndrome?” American Journal of Gastroenterology, 2005. 100(4): p. 979- 981.

    S. Walker, K. Hepner, J. Segal, A. Krigsman “Persistent Ileal Measles Virus in a Large Cohort of Regressive Autistic Children with Ileocolitis and Lymphonodular Hyperplasia: Revisitation of an Earlier Study” (last accessed June 2007) (paper submitted for publication)

    Balzola F et al . “Autistic enterocolitis: confirmation of a new inflammatory bowel disease in an Italian cohort of patients.” Gastroenterology 2005;128(Suppl. 2);A-303

  75. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    That was a heavily criticized paper:

    Another limitation is that vaccination against hepatitis B is only recommended in England for certain high risk groups (health professionals, travellers to endemic regions, patients with hepatic or renal dysfunction, prostitutes and drug addicts), which could not be representative of the populations included in the other studies.

    No, the results of the study by Hernán do not suggest that vaccination can accelerate the occurrence of MS. Firstly, the average age at the time of the first symptom of MS was similar for subjects vaccinated and unvaccinated against hepatitis B. Secondly, the proportion of patients having developed MS in the 12 months after vaccination was close to that of controls (1.8% and 1.0%, respectively).

    It does not help to cherry pick articles, and ignore others.

  76. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Wrong, again. Replications need to be independent, so by definition they should not include Wakefield or anyone associated with him. Plus they need to have at least the same number of cases, the same vaccine and not include adults.

  77. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    This is from the Guardian, on the exoneration of Dr. Walker-Smith. Dr. Wakefield has not yet had his day in court, but he will, he’ll be exonerated, and you people will have to tuck your tails between your legs and scurry back into the hell from whence you came.

    A doctor has won his high court battle against being struck off over the MMR jab controversy. Prof John Walker-Smith appealed against the General Medical Council’s determination that he was guilty of serious professional misconduct. He was supported by parents of some of the children with autism and bowel disease treated by him at the Royal Free hospital, north London, until his retirement in 2001. On Wednesday Mr Justice Mitting, sitting at the high court in London, ruled that the GMC decision “cannot stand”. He quashed the 2010 finding of professional misconduct and the striking off. Calling for changes in the way GMC fitness to practise panel hearings are conducted , the judge said of the flawed handling of Walker-Smith’s case: “It would be a misfortune if this were to happen again.”

    Walker-Smith said: “I am extremely pleased with the outcome of my appeal … There has been a great burden on me and my family since the allegations were first made in 2004 and throughout the hearing that ran from 2007 to 2010. I am relieved that this matter is now over..” Thanking his supporters, he added: “I will never forget all the support I have received and I am truly grateful for it. I hope now to enjoy my retirement with my family.”

    In a written ruling, the judge made it clear that the judgment was the end of the case, and the GMC did not intend to appeal.

    The judge said the GMC fitness to practise panel’s conclusion that Walker-Smith was guilty of serious professional misconduct was flawed in two respects. There had been “inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion”.

    The decision to strike off had been defended at a recent hearing as “just and fair – not wrong” by Joanna Glynn QC, for the GMC.

    She said: “In spite of inadequate reasons it is quite clear on overwhelming evidence that the charges are made out.”

    The judge disagreed and said the misconduct finding and the sanction of erasure – striking off – “are both quashed”.

    In May 2010, Prof Walker-Smith lost his licence to practise with Dr Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who triggered a global scare about the MMR vaccine. A GMC fitness to practise panel found both guilty of misconduct over the way the research was conducted.

    The panel’s verdict followed 217 days of deliberation, making it the longest disciplinary case in the GMC’s 152-year history. It came 12 years after a 1998 paper in the Lancet suggested a link between the vaccine, bowel disease and autism, resulting in a plunge in the number of children having the vaccination.

    In 2004, the Lancet announced a partial retraction, and 10 of the 13 authors disowned it.

    Wakefield was the paper’s chief author and Walker-Smith the then head of the department of paediatric gastroenterology at the Royal Free, where the research was carried out.

    Walker-Smith’s clinical role focused on treatment related to sick children, while his academic work included collaborating in research with Wakefield.

    “It had to decide what Professor Walker-Smith thought he was doing: if he believed he was undertaking research in the guise of clinical investigation and treatment, he deserved the finding that he had been guilty of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure.

    “If not, he did not, unless, perhaps, his actions fell outside the spectrum of that which would have been considered reasonable medical practice by an academic clinician.

    “Its failure to address and decide that question is an error which goes to the root of its determination. The panel’s decision cannot stand. I therefore quash it.”

  78. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Chris,
    This is not a chess game. Who says the studies have to have the same number of children? There were only nine of the Lancet Twelve who had both autism and bowel disease. It was just a small, suggestive case study. You obviously have no interest in learning the truth about what is damaging hundreds of thousands of our children, you just want to nit pick. These studies investigate the same or a related question as that of the Lancet Study, and they confirm Dr. Wakefield’s findings, that’s the only important thing, and what you said did not exist.

  79. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    It is not a nitpik. Replications need to be independent. Those are the rules. It is how mistakes are corrected, and science advances. It also happened to Dr. Fleischmann and Dr. Pons.

    Wakefield still cannot practice medicine anywhere on this planet, and retracted papers are still retracted… and none have been independently replicated.

    You keep posting falsehoods, and we keep correcting you. We know you will never learn, but there are others who will learn of the lack of veracity to your claims.

  80. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    The varicella vaccine causes shingles as well as the natural disease, and the vaccine sometimes causes shingles in young children, while shingles after the natural disease only occurs in older adults.

  81. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    The varicella vaccine is very dangerous, while the disease is nearly always fairly mild in children. There’s no question that this is another ridiculous vaccine dreamed up just to save parents an average of one and a half days off work caring for a sick child.

  82. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    Except that you forget that in the measles outbreak in Europe last year, there were 30,000 who got it, and only nine deaths, a death rate of one in 3,300, much less than the rate of one in a thousand fifty years ago. Measles may be still getting milder and milder, the way whooping cough has. In any case, it’s not a disease to fear for healthy, well-nourished children. The 29,991 people who got measles last year and lived to tell the tale now have permanent immunity, can protect nursing children with breastmilk, and did not suffer damage from the MMR.

  83. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Your immune system is an extremely powerful, well-honed safety belt that has learned over millions of years how to combat disease, unless it has been screwed up by vaccines, which skew it to predominantly Th-2 auto-immune responses.

  84. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    I agree with Steve, I had both measles and chicken pox as a child, and neither one is a disease to be feared. My father had chicken pox as an adult, and it was not a bad case. It used to be that over 95% of children caught measles naturally, and previously healthy, well-nourished children recovered just fine. People who are sick do need to stay in bed and stay well-hydrated, but the immune system knows how to deal with these sicknesses, if no Tylenol is given to thwart its efforts. The high fever serves a purpose.

  85. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    What happened to Roald Dahl’s daughter when she got measles?

  86. cia parker
    April 1, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    And the vaccines seriously weaken people’s immune system, what with all the autoimmune diseases they cause making the immune system attack itself rather than save its energy for the real threats.

  87. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Please tell us with supporting evidence that the varicella vaccine is dangerous. And why you think it is okay for children to spend two weeks covered in itchy open wounds with a chance of secondary bacterial infection.

  88. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    Then why did 90% of the native population of the American continents die within two centuries of Columbus finding them? See 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus.

  89. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    Why are you lying?

  90. Mmom
    April 1, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Cia Parker, I am so sorry for what you had to go through. I have auto-immune disease. Can’t say if it was related to one or more vaccines though. I know I was very sick every time I get Flu shot and in my teens I went down with dangerously high fewer and pain all over the body, which they say was a flu the next day from flu shot (go figure that)…. I know – I know Chris will say I got another type of flu and bla-bla-bla…., but we know better from a personal experience. I could not stand on my feet it was so painful. I was in my bed for 2 weeks then it got better just enough to force myself to move around and go to school. But I was crying and screaming almost every night from pain in my bed and would fall asleep from exhaustion. Then it got better with years, but would come back several times a year and make me disabled for about week or two. No doctor diagnosed me back in USSR. It was my pediatrician who finally listened to me and said no vaccines for me and that it looked like an allergic reaction. She just assured me that it will go away with time. I am closer to 40 and it still with me and I just got it under control with natural medicine approach, chiropractor, acupuncture, holistic doctor, cleanses, herbs, supplements, fish oil was the best, and healthy organic diet. It’s very expensive. It does not convince me that this kind of suffering was better for us. I am taking care of my children and take care of their immune system so their bodies could fight child diseases.

    By the way, I’ve had Hep A and B and did not even know it. I had no vaccine for Hep at all. It did not effect my nerves system or immunity besides giving me a permanent defense against Hep. Healthy children usually recover without complications and, even though I have no evidence, I am sure they don’t die from most diseases. I know that kids died from them in the past and now days. Though we don’t know how healthy they were and in what nutritional state they were. As I see, most people, kids and adults, starve themselves nutritionally. In the past most people had limited food and had no choices, but know we have processed food loving society with too many choices.

    I agree with you that there are many more dangerous ingredients in vaccines. I think foreign DNA and animal tissues can be even more dangerous to some people. One size fits all is a prescription for a disaster. Vaccines were developed for healthy kids with good immune system. Doctors never really check kids before giving a vaccine. They are not trained to check them if there are potential immunity disorders or overreactive immunity and so on. It’s a job of immunologist not Pediatrician. You had reaction yourself. That along should rase a flag, but doctors did not care, did not know, were not trained or who knows why they did not use at least common sense. They just follow orders and injected your baby with Hep B. They often don’t even think and do just what they do everyday. They are nurses who raised their concerns and questioned this practice, but they were told that they have to do what they told to do or find another job. New borns don’t need Hep B unless mother has it or maybe someone else in the family. How is the benefit outweighs the risk? It makes me tear when I hear about babies like yours. God bless you and I hope you’ll find the way to help your child to get better if possible.

    Maybe Diphtheria is worth of risk, but that one comes in combination with Tetanus which is not necessary as well. If someone just choked on it, here is why. You have several days to get vaccine to protect yourself from developing Tetanus from time of injury. Why do your babies need it? I wonder. Are you going to drop your baby on a nail? And anyway, get it at time of injury, why before?

  91. Mmom
    April 1, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    I would suggest to ignore Chris. He or she is insensitive and blind on one eye (i would say deaf, but we are reading and writing here). He or she is set by vaccine industry and it’s obvious. You will never convince him/her wrong. Don’t waist your time. If some parent reads our post it will be enough to get him/her thinking and do their own research and make informative decision based on it instead fears that people like Chris creating around all this issues. I am personally done with Chris.

    Chris, please save your energy. I don’t care what you say. I know all your notes you are referring to. You did not answer my single questions, but attacked me which is usual tactic of hired blogers spreading pro-vaccine propaganda. I did not pick specific article from your link, but simply clicked on one randomly and you did not like it. That is what you referred me too. So be more careful next time……….. Buy-buy

  92. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    You will never convince him/her wrong.

    Wrong. All you have to do is support your statements with verifiable scientific evidence.

    You just cannot pull statements out of thin air and expect us to believe them. Especially when you seem to have a limited understanding of the subject. Though that would take some time and effort for you to correct by having a willingness to learn. Even better would to take some basic science courses in science, like biology. You just need to open your mind.

    I did not pick specific article from your link, but simply clicked on one randomly and you did not like it.

    One out of over ten thousand is by definition cherry picking. You also did not bother to see if that particular vaccine component was actually in use. Plus you just posted quotes without telling us which paper you were quoting.

  93. Kelly
    April 1, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    This should be good considering the vaccine contains a weakened version of the wild virus. If the weakened version is “very dangerous”, why would the full strength wild version not be even more dangerous?

    Me thinks, this is just another false claim. Does anything accurate and truthful come out of cia’s mouth?

  94. Kelly
    April 1, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    Because that’s all she’s got Chris. Cia cannot counter the science so she must lie in order to maintain her delusion.

    It’s kind of sad that she keeps repeating the same lies over and over again even after being corrected repeatedly.

  95. Chris
    April 1, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    On the most recent NPR Science Friday it was a science joke program. One (non-science) joke involved an audience full of comedians who know the jokes so well that person on stage just calls out “Number four!”, followed by laughter, then he calls out another number with more laughter. He finally calls out a number and there is no laughter. The reason they did not the way he said it.

    We should assign numbers to Cia’s claims and just reply “Number two”, “Number 40″, etc. Though it would help to have link to a FAQ that lists the claim and why it is wrong.

  96. Nathan
    April 2, 2012 at 12:05 am

    Except that you forget that in the measles outbreak in Europe last year, there were 30,000 who got it, and only nine deaths, a death rate of one in 3,300, much less than the rate of one in a thousand fifty years ago.

    Cia, perhaps you haven’t noticed that this blogpost is a year old – my comment was in april of 2011, so there was nothing to “forget.” Further, one in three thousand is fantastic – if you live in Europe. I’m talking about United States mortality rates. Which was roughly one per one thousand in the last major measles outbreak in the early 1990′s – twenty years ago, not fifty.

    Who knows? perhaps the US mortality rate has improved in 20 years and “only” one in three thousand would die. That would be great, though I don’t know what major change in medicine, hygeine, nutrition, etc. would have made such an impact since the 90′s. But I don’t really want to suffer an epidemic to find out.

    In any case, it’s not a disease to fear for healthy, well-nourished children.

    Sooo… the nine deaths in Europe were emaciated asthmatics? I seriously doubt that.

    The 29,991 people who got measles last year and lived to tell the tale now have permanent immunity

    So do people that got the measles vaccine.

    can protect nursing children with breastmilk

    Herd immunity has done far more to protect infants from measles than breastfeeding-derived or transplacental antibodies.

    and did not suffer damage from the MMR.

    Yet they suffered damage from the wild measles at a rate several orders of magnitude higher than occurs from the MMR. One in a thousand had encephalitis. And they have to hope they don’t get SSPE down the line.

    http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/1201_European_monthly_measles_monitoring_Dec_2011.pdf

  97. Mmom
    April 2, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Yes, you are on the same page with FDA and pharmaceutical companies along with paid of politicians. “It is safe until proven otherwise.” You made up upside down world and brain wash everybody that if there is no evidence that it’s bad then it’s good without even trying to prove it. And that if we question it’s safety you who asks us to prove it….. That is funny!…. It applies to prescription drugs and vaccines which kill and injure everyday, and Genetically Modified Organisms which make people sick. But natural treatments, herbs, supplements, vitamins, minerals, Homeopathy are…… VERY DANGEROUS again without any prove from your side. And I never heard of single person die from it unless someone did a really strange things with it. That is very interesting. Who wants to jump on this boat with Chris? Go ahead.

    I have higher education and have more then basic chemistry, biology, human body anatomy along with immunology, nutritions and much more. The one thing I know for sure that USSR and Russia education was one most superior assets out of all while USA education was pretty pore in compare. I had to go to University in US as well, so I could see the difference. It might be different in Russia now though. Back then I had Cs and Bs in Russian University and it was supper hard, but in US I had all As and only few Bs in many years and it was much..much easier. What do you suggest me to learn? And how about medical doctors and immunologists who says what I say about vaccines expressing their concerns? Are they also have a limited understanding of the subject? You are really funny.

  98. Lawrence
    April 2, 2012 at 5:46 am

    The issues we have with Alt-Woo (homeopathy is a bit different – since it is all water, it doesn’t cause direct harm, only prevents people from taking real action against their ailments), if that, for real medicine, we have studies, approval processes, tests, quality control regulations, etc – for Woo, there is none.

    Why are woo-practioners so afraid to put themselves under more scrutiny, to at least make sure their supplements are being made correctly? Or better yet, but out actual research that what they are selling is effective? I mean, we know the real answer, because today they are allowed to make fairly outrageous claims that their treatments work, while not actually having to prove it.

  99. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Mmom,
    I’m so glad you saw my post directed to you, I was afraid you may have given up in disgust and not returned to this site. Your posts are really impressive, and your English as well, I can tell that you are a highly educated person. I studied a first-year Russian book on my own, and completed it, but a Russian girl I knew said my handwriting looked like a Russian first-grader’s. Which, of course, was natural.
    I’m sorry for the suffering you’ve gone through as well, and I’m glad you have gone to alternative practitioners to seek relief and possible cure. I buy a ton of supplements for my daughter, and you’re right, they’re really expensive. I don’t have insurance, which wouldn’t matter anyway as far as buying “unproven” supplements. We’ve started a gluten-free, casein-free diet as well, which I thought would be hard, since we are vegetarians, but I got a wonderful book called Welcoming Kitchen, with lots of vegan recipes which my daughter really likes. And it has cured her extremely severe chronic constipation! She had been on Miralax twice a day, Natural Calm magnesium, aloe vera juice, a high-fiber breakfast cereal with 35% of the daily fiber requirement, lots of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, water, but she still alternated between diarrhea and intractable constipation. And now she’s normal, I still can’t believe it! Most doctors dismiss this diet the way they do vaccine damage, probably because they realize at some level that it’s the vaccines that provoke an auto-immune reaction that makes holes in the intestines that the incompletely-digested gluten and casein peptides go through and go straight to the brain, while shutting down the bowels. I haven’t taken out soy at this time, she loves the soy milk that I buy now instead of cow’s milk, and she’s doing so well that I’ll have to keep thinking about whether to withdraw soy as well. it would leave a real protein and calcium gap unless she would drink pea protein powder mixed in a drink.
    But you’re right, it is very expensive and difficult to try to counteract vaccine damage.
    Personally, I don’t think even the diphtheria vaccine is worth the risk entailed. I’ve read lots of old cases in which the person who got it died within half an hour of receiving the injection. Although the pharma-shills here would insist that all of these deaths, in both adults and childen, were “coincidence,” fewer and fewer people believe their nonsense. In the outbreaks in places like Chicago of diphtheria forty years ago, Dr. Robert Mendelsohn observed that most of the people who got it had been appropriately vaccinated for diphtheria, but like hundreds of thousands of people who got the smallpox vaccine, they caught and many died of the disease anyway. I’ve read about the outbreak of diphtheria in the former Soviet Union in the late 1980′s, and I’ve read that many or most of the people who got it had been vaccinated for it. Maybe you could tell me if that’s true. Do you have personal experience of it? It is no longer present in the U.S., so I would feel safe not even considering the diphtheria vaccine, though I recognize that the disease can be devastating and fatal. Wendy Lydall, in Raising a Vaccine-Free Child, recommends homeopathic remedies for many communicable diseases as well as tetanus, and she recommends mercurius cyanatus for diphtheria.
    This is just my opinion, but I would only consider the Hib vaccine for infants who are in day care and not breast-fed, even though even the Hib can disable and kill on occasion, and the tetanus vaccine for older children. They say the plain T vaccine is more reactive than the DT, so I would probably recommend it be given as DT. Not for us, my family plainly has a genetic tendency to react to vaccines. It’s not a defect, just a difference. It was probably an asset in the millions of years before vaccines to have so vigilant an immune system. I have a law degree and a Ph.D. in Spanish, and used to be very healthy. Both my parents and all my grandparents had university degrees. But my father was paralyzed by a flu vaccine for the last three years of his life, my mother got Alzheimer’s fron it (the aluminum accumulates in the brain), my nephew reacted to vaccines and has high-functioning autism, both my brother and I reacted to the DPT as infants with encephalitis, and, as I said before, I reacted to the tetanus vaccine with paralysis. And now my daughter has moderate-level autism, and will probably never be independent, although maybe this diet will help her brain improve a lot in its functioning.
    I had measles when I was six and chicken pox when I was seven, never mumps as far as I know. Rotavirus when I lived in Mexico, hepatitis-A after I visited several Indian reservations in New Mexico and Arizona, and, even though I was an adult, it only lasted a few weeks and was not at all a severe case, just made me more tired than usualy and turned the whites of my eyes yellow. Whooping cough when I caught it from my vaccinated daughter, who got the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, and still caught pertussis at a La Leche League meeting when she was 9 months old. The pertussis vaccine is dangerous, while not being very effective. The 18-month booster made her lose the only two words she had started to say, uh for up at the playground, and uff for dog, and she didn’t say any word from the shot until she was nearly three years old. I never took a flu shot, I’ve had flu many times in my life, but I’d much rather just go through the illness than take a dangerous, unpredictable vaccine. It hones the skills of your immune system to be called into serious action, and makes it stronger.
    Have you read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: Autism and the Hepatitis-B Vaccine? It’s a great book, the same thing happened to her baby as to mine, they gave him the hep-B vaccine when he was born without asking permission, and he reacted with severe bowel disease and screaming syndrome, and was later diagnosed with autism. She testified at safety hearings in 1999 in Washington, for all the good it did. (They found that it was not safe.) She has stunning statistics on the dangers inherent in the shot. Andrew Wakefield’s Callous Disregard is great, and Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s Make an Informed Vaccine Decision, which includes citations of hundreds of scientific studies (not pharma-funded) and dozens of VAERS reports of adverse reactions, with a few details on each, with numbers to confirm them yourself if you want to. The people on this site like to say these reports are worthless, that babies and children reacting however soon after a vaccine and however similar it is to many other cases, and no matter how devastating they are, it’s all just a coincidence, no reason to be wary of vaccines. Chris goes so far as to deny that any vaccine has ever done damage to anyone, which, of course, completely destroys her credibility, but you’re right, we should just skip over her comments and hope that parents who are seeking the truth will pay heed to our personal testimony and discount hers.

  100. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 10:29 am

    I have higher education and have more then basic chemistry, biology, human body anatomy along with immunology, nutritions and much more.

    Then how come you have no clue on how ubiquitous aluminum is in the environment? Do you not know what minerals are in soil? You made up a story that the aluminum that is part of those minerals were put there by pollution, etc.

    You also should know better than to make statements without any supporting evidence. Anyone who makes a claim must prove it. That is how it works.

    You can claim all the education you want, but if you do not demonstrate basic knowledge we do not have to take your word for it.

  101. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Mmom,
    I’m sorry, I used up the allotted space and had to post it. Today Becky Estepp is giving a press conference about her son reacting to the hep-B vaccine at nine months of age with encephalitic screaming, just like my daughter and Judy Converse’s son, and he was later diagnosed with autism. It’s probably part of the larger press conference being given in Manhattan today (Monday) at eleven o’clock Eastern Standard Time,, and sponsored by many autism organizations. It will be broadcast on www. canaryparty.org, and will probably be available to watch even if you can’t watch at that time. I called my senators and representatives at both the national and state levels and told them I’m a constituent, my daughter has autism from the vaccines, and I’d like them to watch the press conference.
    This new statistic of one in 88 children now having autism is on my daughter’s generation, children born in 2000. Of course it’s much higher among the younger children, but they haven’t been officially counted yet.
    I’m looking forward to your reply, and will just skip over Chris’ (and possibly Kelly’s and Nathan’s, but I think Nathan is a big gun who isn’t always called into combat) inevitable trashing of what we say.

  102. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Tanya,
    This was a wonderful post, and I totally agree with you! I can answer your question about how many here would support mandatory vaccination, all of them would, because they’re paid to defend the safety and necessity of every vaccine that comes down the pipeline, regardless of danger or common sense. Your last comment on the proposed vaccine to prevent addiction is frightening, but they already did something similar when they started giving the hepatitis-B vaccine at birth to every newborn in America that they could get their hands on, like my poor daughter, even though I’d said I didn’t want her to get it. That is the most criminal situation in the tragic annals of the history of vaccination, to artificially inflate the number of children said to contract hep-B every year from the 360 born to infected mothers to 30,000, a figure pulled out of nowhere, so they could sell lots of vaccine designed to prevent a disease transmitted like AIDS, blood and semen-borne, not transmitted casually. Leaving in its wake hundreds of thousands of permanently damaged or dead babies. I cannot say whether the MMR or the hep-B vaccine has caused more autism, do you have an opinion?
    I agree with you that they should be free to damage their child with every vaccine available, irresponsible though it is, and not bug those of us who prefer to trust our child’s immune system, good nourishment, herbal supplements and homeopathy, allopathic drugs if absolutely necessary. It is beyond question that the vaccines damage countless thousands of those who get them, starting with the one in nine that gets asthma from the pertussis vaccine and the one in six who gets a learning disability because his brain has been altered by a vaccine. Therefore, they have absolutely no right to insist that we similarly damage our children because they fear that the vaxes may not always perform as billed in their vaxed children.

  103. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 11:09 am

    mo garcia,
    I agree with you, it is unconscionable that so many healthy children are damaged in order to prevent some of them from getting a communicable disease, and that the recently-vaccinated ones can transmit diseases. While you know which ones have been recently vaccinated, since so many refuse to admit that vaccines can ever cause harm to anyone, most parents and most doctors would not hesitate to allow a recently-vaccinated person to come into close contact with an immuno-compromised person.
    And you’re right, this effort to guilt-trip those of us who refuse to damage ourselves or our children with vaccines by going on and on about everyone’s responsibility to participate in herd immunity is cowardly and reprehensible.

  104. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 11:28 am

    that the recently-vaccinated ones can transmit diseases. While you know which ones have been recently vaccinated, s

    Which vaccines in the present pediatric schedule would those be? And please post the actual evidence that it is a common occurrence (not just one or two case reports).

  105. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 11:51 am

    Chris,
    Even one of your people put on another site that he thought the varicella vaccine was extremely dangerous, but it was last summer, and I don’t remember where it was. But he probably based his opinion on the following information:
    CDC and FDA study on 6,500 adverse reactions to the varicella vaccine in 3 1/2 years, published in Journal of the American Medical Association (September 13, 2000):1271-79. “Postlicensure safety surveillance for varicella vaccine,” Wise, R.P., et al. It found that the rate of adverse reactions occurred at a rate of 67.5 per 100,000 doses sold. About 4% of reactions considered serious adverse reactions, defined by FDA as death, life-threatening events, hospitalizaions, persisten or significant disabilities, like, in this study, numerous cases of neurological disorders, immune system damage, blood disorders, brain inflammation, seizures, and death. Children under 4 had serious reactions at a rate of 6.3%, children under 2 at a rate of 9.2%, children vaxed by mistake at less than a year old had serious reactions at a rate of 14%. The FDA admitted that “potentially substantial underreporting” made the figures “highly variable fractions of actual even numbers.” Some of the case studies described in this study included a previously-healthy 18-month-old boy who had no history of allergies or vaccine reaction who got the varicella vax, was admitted to ICU four days later with low platelet count, began to bleed from mouth, and died two days later from cerebral hemorrhage. I know you think, Chris, that dying four days after a vaccine is always just coincidental, as in the case of Kaylynne Matten, but the FDA and CDC believed that his death was caused by the varicella vax four days earlier. Another child without prevous convulsions got the varicella vax and had an absence seizure three days later. After his second dose one month later, he reacted with two generalized tonic-clonic seizures. The researchers wrote that his reacting with seizures after both vaccines meant that “the patient’s positive rechallenge for seizure activity increases suspicion that varicella vaccine may be more than a coincidental factor in observations of postvaccinal convulsions.” A 4-year-old girl developed hemiparesis (paralysis on one side of her body) two weeks after varicella vax.
    I know you discount all reports made whether by parents or doctors to the VAERS on adverse vaccine reactions, but for the sake of those who do believe them and find they provide a salutary warning for those considering the vaccine, I will put several VAERS reports:
    107121: one year old child gets varicella vax, four days later gets rash, vomits, screams shrill scream, goes into cardiac arrest and dies.
    87553: 2 year old gets vax, two weeks later has pericarditis, vasculitis, liver damage, swollen lips, and is hospitalized.
    121661: 3 year old gets vax, nine days later paralyzed, unable to walk or urinate.
    122210: 4 year old gets vax, two days later has kidney damage, two weeks later she got chickenpox and superinfection, and was hospitalized.
    175928: 8 year old get vax, three days later dizzy and confused, develops seizures and air-lifted to hospital.
    275714: 8 year old boy gets vax, ten minutes later vomits and loses consciousness. Unresponsive, diagnosed with acute respiratory distress, rushed to ER.
    218460: 9 year old girl gets vax, Guillain-Barré syndrome, spent five weeks in hospital.
    114146: 9 year old gets vax, 13 days later hosptaized for serious blood disorder.
    219497: child gets vax (still varicella), four days later unresponsive, focal seizure, foams at mouth, and hospitalized.
    Reported serious reactions include: anaphylaxis, thrombocytopenia, Henoch-Schonlein purpura, encephalitis, transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, Bell’s palsy, seizures, aseptic meningitis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, pneumonia, pharyngitis, secondary bacterial infections, and herpes zoster (shingles). NVIC “Med Alerts: access to the U.S. government’s VAERS” medalerts.org (I’m not going to put www because it takes this program a long, long time to process links.)

    I had chickenpox when I was seven, shingles after I had my daughter, and she caught chickenpox from me when she was nearly two, exactly ten years ago at the end of March. . She had a fever for a day, threw up her favorite Organic Harvest apple and sweet potato lunch, had hundreds of lesions all over her body for two weeks, but got well with only one scar next to her nose as a memento, which eventually faded. And permanent immunity. I’m really happy she had it, and there’s no question that ít’s better to just go through the illness rather than take another stupid, dangerous vaccine admittedly marketed only to save parents’ missing work for an average of one and a half days to care for their sick child.

    But, of course, I totally recognize that you have every right to get it for your child, Chris, if you’re more afraid of the disease than of the possible reactions. I’m not.

  106. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Lawrence,
    I’ve always bought a lot of herbal remedies from the local health food store, and I’ve read a lot about them, and am satisfied that they are safe and effective, and I would be very unhappy if Big Pharma were successful in its attempts to make them perform expensive studies which would greatly increase their price, to make them less competitive with allopathic drugs, many times more dangerous and expensive. Folk experience over centuries has been enough to prove their safety for me and hundreds of thousands of others. There are countless thousands of deaths every year caused by allopathic drugs taken as directed, but essentially zero deaths from herbal remedies. Thirty years ago there were some deaths from contaminated tryptophan and some from a remedy,ephedra, to clear your airways and lose weight, that caused heart failure in some. I’m not aware of any others, and for me there’s no question that conventional drugs are much more dangerous.

  107. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Chris,
    This is kind of silly even for you. Apple seeds have arsenic, but probably even you would be reluctant to consume arsenic, although you might be interested in doing so just to prove your point, whatever it is. Some places have used aluminum sulfate as a coagulant to clear suspended matter from water at water treatment plants. Most is then removed during water clarification, but some remains. In counties in England where this was done, there was a 50% increase in the risk of Alzheimer’s. Vogt, T. Oslo: Central Bureau of Statisticx of Norway, 1986. “Water Quality and health-a study of a possible relationship between aluminum in drinking water and dementia. Sociale og okonomiske studier 61:1-99.

  108. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Post the title, journal and date of that study on the varicella vaccine that shows it is dangerous.

    Also, answer this question: On the official VAERS site, http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index (please click on that link, it won’t bite you), it says you must “read and understand” something before entering. What do you need to read and understand?

    I have explained it to you several times, but you seem to have trouble answering that question.

    For those with an open mind, here is an explanation of why I am asking about the official VAERS site. The NVIC portal to the VAERS database leaves off crucial information, which is lying by omission. A common practice for that site and its followers.

  109. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Actually, Cia, apple seeds also have cyanide. Your example has nothing to do with the amount of anything in vaccines.

  110. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Chris,
    A follow-up comment on advisability of consuming aluminum. Relative risk for Alzheimer’s four times as great in areas with high aluminum content in drinking water. Michel, P., Commenges, D., Dartigues, J.F. Study of the relationship between Alzheimer’s disease and aluminumm in drinking water. Neurobiology of Aging 1990: 11:264.
    Area in Newfoundland with cluster of high rates of death from dementia, high aluminum concentration in drinking water. Frecker, M.F. Dementia in Newfoundland: identification of a geographical isolate? In Canadian Medical Association Journal 1991; 145:793-804.
    Alzheimer’s patients who used antiperspirants with aluminum, risk ratio 1.6 to 3.2 times greater, depending on frequency of use. For antacids (my mother used Tums a lot for a hiatal hernia, even though I told her it raised her risk of Alzheimer’s. She said her doctor had recommended it, so believed the doctor rather than me, got lots of flu vaccines, so got a lot of aluminum, and has had Alzheimer’s for nearly 14 years) the risk ratio was 3.1 to 11.7, depending on dose. Graves, A.B. et al, “The association between aluminum-containing products and Alzheimer’s disease.” Journal of Clinical Epidemiology 1990; 43:35-44.
    There’s a lot of aluminum in many of the vaccines, in Hib, Prevnar, DTaP, hep A and B, and HPV. It’s an adjuvant, helping the immune system to recognize what has been injected into it, and would not be easy or cheap to replace. Dr. Sears brought this danger to public scrutiny several years ago, but, predictably, nothing has been done, except that more and more parents are just choosing to skirt the whole issue by just refusing vaccines. Aluminum is stored in the brain and accumulates over time. People have varying levels of capacity to excrete it.
    But, again, anyone who is more afraid of the diseases than of brain damage is free to take as many aluminum-containing vaccines as they like.

  111. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Chris,
    I posted it, didn’t you see it? It was:
    Wise, R.P., et al. “Postlicensure safety surveillance for varicella vaccine.”Journal of the American Medical Association (Sept. 13, 2000):1271-79.

    And it doesn’t matter how much you want to believe that most, if not all, reports made to the VAERS are not totally proven and may just be reporting coincidences, many of us believe most of them are actual reports of damage caused by vaccines.

  112. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    How is the amount in water equivalent to that of vaccines. If you wish to show something in vaccines is bad, then stick to vaccines, not something which contains lots more volume.

    You do know the difference in size between a dose of vaccine and a glass of water?

  113. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    I’ve got to go, I don’t have time to look for the guy who said Poul Thorsen was only guilty of embezzling money, not scientific fraud. Of course I beg to differ. Poul Thorsen and Kristeen Madsen in “Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data,” Pediatrics 2003. They fraudulently found that autism rates in Denmark went UP rather than down after thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 1992. The study examined rates from 1970 to 2000. Traditionally children were only counted as being autistic if they had been diagnosed in an institutional setting. In 1995 the Danish government started to include children diagnosed in outpatient clinics in the total as well, and since there were four to six times as many diagnosed in outpatient clinics (93%), that made the total numbers skyrocket overnight. The Danish government also started to use the more-inclusive diagnostic code ICDIO from 1993 on, which also greatly increased the numbers of children then considered autistic.
    Thorsen and Madsen tried to say with a straight face that autism rates went up rather than down without mentioning these two global changes in the way autistic children were counted. Handley said it would be like a study on divorce rates first reporting rates in Canada and Mexico as the baseline number, then suddenly including rates from the U.S. as thought it were the same group as the first one, and reporting that rates had suddenly skyrocketed.
    But a guy who embezzled a million dollars of the funds given to him by the U.S. government to buy a big house and a motorcycle is just the kind of guy to try to deceive the world with this fraudulent study. By the way, the rate of autism in Denmark is only one in 1,600, nowhere near our one in 88, and their kids tend more to have Asperger’s than more profound autism, probably because they give half the number of vaccines we do, and start at an older age.

  114. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    Sorry, your comment are hard to read, and you don’t really cite papers very well. Okay, I found it. They checked the VAERS reports and concluded, not the bolding:

    Most of the reported adverse events associated with varicella vaccine are minor, and serious risks appear to be rare. We could not confirm a vaccine etiology for most of the reported serious events; several will require further study to clarify whether varicella vaccine plays a role. Education is needed to ensure appropriate use of varicella serologic assays and to eliminate confusion between varicella vaccine and varicella zoster immunoglobulin.

  115. cia parker
    April 2, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    The vaccines put it straight into the muscle, from which it is absorbed quickly into the bloodstream. Haven’t you read about Alzheimer’s patients on autopsy having high concentrations of aluminum in their brain? And that there’s twenty times more Alzheimer’s in the U.S. now than there was in 1980, when it became popular for older people (including, unfortunately, my parents) to get a flu vax every year?
    These studies show that aluminum is dangerous whether you absorb it trhough the skin in an antiperspirant, drink it in the water, or get it in a vaccine. You shoul’dnt’let aluminum foil touch the food you store either. Individuals have different thresholds beyond which damage becomes apparent, and different levels of capacity to excrete, but most people would conclude it’s something to be avoided as much as possible.

  116. Chris
    April 2, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    What about the Danish study by Hviid?

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Or Makela in Finland?

    Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.
    Makela A et al.
    Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63

    Or these….

    Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism
    Pediatrics. 2010 Oct;126(4):656-64. Epub 2010 Sep 13.

    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.
    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

    Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
    N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
    J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7

    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
    J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6

    Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association.
    Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9

    No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study.
    Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8

    You keep going on about a minor author on a couple of studies, and yet ignore the many others that were done. That is lying by omission.

  117. Kelly
    April 2, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Gasp, cia caught in a lie, again!

  118. Nathan
    April 2, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    I think Nathan is a big gun who isn’t always called into combat

    This got a big legitimate LOL. Cia, your lack of understanding of the people who support vaccination is matched only by your lack of understanding of the science that supports vaccination.

  119. cia parker
    April 3, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Chris,
    I annoys you when I cite adverse reaction to vaccine reports made by parents or doctors to the VAERS reporting system. It annoys me that you cite reams of pharma-funded studies that, in my opinion, are totally untrustworthy. Don’t you know that money will buy you any sort of results you want?

  120. Lawrence
    April 3, 2012 at 10:50 am

    VAERS is inherently unreliable at face-value – since anyone can enter anything they want. The follow-up work is better, because serious complications are investigated and reported on. I would like you to explain how accurate VAERS is (compared to double-blind or major population studies) based on reports that include deaths linked to Gardisil that were actually caused by a car accident…..

  121. cia parker
    April 3, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Lawrence and Chris,
    So can you explain to me the scientifically credible way to track adverse reactions to vaccines? How is Science recording them, to whom does one report them to be entered into a reliable data base? Are you just dismissing VAERS and saying we don’t need any way to record adverse reactions and deaths from vaccines because everyone knows that vaccines are always totally safe, and there’s no need for such a system?

  122. Lawrence
    April 3, 2012 at 11:15 am

    @cia – well, for a start:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10165549

    And VAERS isn’t useless, there is follow-up on serious reports of complications – but when you have people loading up a bunch of crap (like auto-accidents, drownings, and people turning into Wonder Woman & the Hulk) it tends to create a level of background noise that prevents the full utilization of the system by the experts who track adverse reactions.

    Post-study / post-release safety monitoring occurs all the time – why do you think the FDA & CDC issues reports on the status of various drugs and treatments (because they are tracked, duh).

  123. cia parker
    April 3, 2012 at 11:40 am

    So you accept that the VAERS cases I cite with details on medical events are valid? I haven’t referenced any that involve auto accidents or drownings, just neurological events or those involving heart, kidney, or liver damage, occurring shortly after vaccination. Many of them are confirmed by hospital reports. SIDS deaths don’t usually happen at hospitals, but are statistically much more likely to occur shortly after vaccination. If a parent observes side effects at home, must these be dismissed because they didn’t occcur in a laboratory setting? How would any vaccine reaction occur in a laboratory setting? What about all the events that occur that are not investigated as part of an official study carried out by the CDC? Since events like asthma are usually caused by vaccines but take a while to develop, and never occur in a laboratory setting, do you not support a vax/unvax study to establish by the numbers the difference between a vaxed and unvaxed population? The studies that have been done have all been comparing slightly differently vaxed populations, and say that vaxed group B had no more adverse reactions than vaxed group A, “proving” that vax B is safe. What if both groups have a lot more adverse reactions than group “completely unvaxed”? How can you tell if you don’t do a true vax/unvax study? I know you guys don’t want to know the answer, but we parents of vaccine-damaged children believe it’s critical to know exactly what we’re getting into, what the odds are, if we decide to vax.
    And you should read the Mark Blaxill article which is being posted as the Best of Age of Autism, which he wrote after the last report on the increase in autism rates, on the decline of the CDC’s integrity. I actually didn’t know what an admirable job they had done thirty years ago figuring out the causes and incidence of AIDS, they have sold out so completely to Big Pharma since the beginning of the vaccine-induced autism epidemic. Read how they screwed with the autism figures from Brick Township to cover up the epidemic. And I’m sure you’re familiar with the wacky proceedings at Simpsonwood.

  124. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Actually, you don’t annoy me because you cite cases that not been investigated. It is amusing that you can continue to call those reports as Gospel, but cannot answer this simple question:

    What do you have to read and understand on the official VAERS site before using its database?

    For others: the reason for that question, and perhaps why Cia refuses to answer it (it has to do with lying by omission)

  125. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Again, I have told that answer before: the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project. I am not dismissing VAERS. It is only a starting place, not the final say, the reports need to be investigated and verified. What part of that do you not understand?

    It was used in a more recent study on varicella vaccine reactions, Safety of Varicella Vaccine after Licensure in the United States: Experience from Reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, 1995–2005 . Where it discusses the use of VAERS:

    Passive surveillance systems such as VAERS have important inherent limitations, including underreporting [17, 49]. VAERS is more likely to capture events that follow soon after vaccination rather than later events [50]. Overreporting also is a factor, since many reports may describe events related in time but likely to be caused by confounding factors, especially diseases and medications. The majority of reported adverse events occurred after coadministration of varicella vaccine with other vaccines, primarily in the 12–23-month age group. Thus, the potential association of varicella vaccine with the reported adverse event often is difficult to evaluate. In VAERS, most reports are not verified, lack consistent diagnostic criteria, and provide limited clinical and laboratory information.

  126. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    So you accept that the VAERS cases I cite with details on medical events are valid?

    Only after they have been investigated.

    And you should read the Mark Blaxill

    Why should I care about the epidemiology musings of a person who went to business school, where he stopped taking math after basic calculus? If you broke your arm would you have an MD or MBA set the bone?

    And why should I care what you say about VAERS when you cannot answer this simple question: what does it say you must read and understand at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index ?

  127. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    So what? Show that the vaccines are dangerous, not the drinking water.

  128. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Just in case you forget, I ask again in a little different way: Why does the official VAERS site say “Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data. You MUST click on the box below to access the VAERS database.“?

  129. Chris
    April 3, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    The studies that have been done have all been comparing slightly differently vaxed populations, and say that vaxed group B had no more adverse reactions than vaxed group A, “proving” that vax B is safe. What if both groups have a lot more adverse reactions than group “completely unvaxed”?

    You design the study and get Blaxill and friends to pay for it.

    And it has been done: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents.

  130. Mmom
    April 4, 2012 at 2:50 am

    Hi Cia,
    I see you are still trying to make this stone heads think logically. They are here to intimidate people. I practically see no comments from regular parents who is trying to decide what to do or who decided they will opt out from vaccines. No one wants to be treated like we are treated. These people are rood, aggressive, never even read your comments, do not have souls, and do not care about anyone’s opinion or personal choice (we are free to choose in this country, aren’t we?). I am going to post something very interesting about Diphtheria in Russia and you are right, most people were vaccinated from it and had full immunity against Diphtheria. I have a source and notes, but it is from Russian book of reference for doctors. I need to translate it. It is a hard copy book and there it’s not available on the Internet. It’s also about outbreak in beginning 1900′s.

    My baby was checked by doctor today. He is supper impressed how healthy * is. And my first child is the same. Both had no vaccines. We could not find a doctor with open mind for a while, but I was lucky to find him just by accident from a comment of one lady and decided to see him. He did not mind to have us despite no vaccinations. He told us that they have tremendous pressure from insurance and other parties to keep kids on schedule. He said that he does not care about it. He is so real. I mean he is a real human, doctor, heart and soul. I can’t thank Lord enough for finding this doctor. He was not really supporting us on vaccination, but he respected our choice since we knew well all about it.

    Now, several months later he’ve changed. He closed the room and start talking about his concerns about all the reaction and damage he sees in kids from vaccines. Lately he got so many parents with badly damaged children. (Actually I gave his info to my nutritionist and she had many people who could not find a doctor for their kids who would not push vaccines every singe visit). He had no idea how serious this problem was.

    Yesterday he got a new patient. A boy who is 20 months old was injured by multiple vaccines. When he was 18 he got DTP, MMR (2nd shot), and Flu. He was healthy in every way: was talking a bit, walking and behaved as any healthy 18 months old. Right after those vaccines he start loosing his milestones and by 20 month he stopped walking. He can’t walk. His Pediatrician said usual BS in case like that and that he can’t do anything about it. Now she was crying out for help to my doctor. He asked if we new something that could help him, that he is open to research anything and see how he can help. This boy really touched his heart.

    Last weekend my Doctor and others he knows had a meeting and talked about it for hours. They also had those cases. He said, in short: “If they order me to do something as medical doctor, should not they give me a real information on safety of it. As a doctor practicing medicine I need to know all about it. There are no reliable safety studies for vaccines that our children get.” He would not say anything like this 6 months ago. Those doctors tried to find something that proves them wrong and they found nothing. He was shocked! Most doctors are the same. They just don’t see a problem and dismiss any reaction like one above as something would happened despite any vaccines. They were told that vaccines are safe and they believe it religiously. Anyone who decides to find out for themselves comes to the same conclusion as my doctor did.

    I want to give you some info that is different from this subject. I opened a new email which I will abandon later. Send me your email here. You will get my respond from my real email account. m.mmom@mail.ru I hope to hear from you. Thank you for interesting info.

    Chris and others from the same company, I don’t even look at your comments anymore. Save your overworked fingers and don’t waist my time.

  131. Chris
    April 4, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Chris and others from the same company, I don’t even look at your comments anymore. Save your overworked fingers and don’t waist my time.

    Yet, others will notice when you refuse to answer simple questions. The plural of anecdote is not data, and just making stuff up is not data (especially when it shows a total misunderstanding of basic chemistry and biology).

  132. cia parker
    April 5, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Did you guys see the new Reuters study “Whooping cough vaccines in pre-teens study”? It found that in the California outbreak of whooping cough two years ago, that 92% of the people who got it had been appropriately vaccinated for pertussis. It said that many of those who had it were between the ages of 8 and 12, an age group that is not currently permitted to receive a pertussis booster, since it is much more likely to cause adverse events in children older than seven. Just thought I’d ask for your take on it.

  133. cia parker
    April 5, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Another interesting phenomenon. Kurt Andersen interviewed Walter Zahoroday and asked him if vaccines can cause autism, and interestingly enough, instead of saying no, the way he traditionally has, he said sometimes. And Tom Ashbrook interviewed Geri Dawson, who, just a year ago, said vaccines were off the table, it was so obvious they never caused autism, and this time, instead of denying the connection, she too said sometimes. Ginger Taylor said they’re pushing the envelope. I talked with a friend last night about what she meant by that phrase, we had thought it meant trying to get something you’re not entitled to, but Ginger meant it to mean that they can see which way the wind is blowing, and are trying to prepare a dignified, gradual move toward the inevitable eventual admission that vaccines usually cause autism, so what are we going to do about it?
    Imus in the Morning had Deirdre and Lis on talkiing about the new figures on the tremendous continuing increase in the number of cases of autism, and they were both vehement in insisting that it was caused by the vaccines, there had been no change in the diagnostic criteria used to diagnose autism.
    And I guess you’ve seen that in New Jersey and Utah, the rates are now one in 29? The 1 in 88 figure was the very delayed count of the rates calculated in 2008 of children born in 2000, rates in younger children are much higher, some states count using both rates reported from medical professionals and rates seen in public schools, which are desperately scrambling to find teachers trained to work with these often difficult to handle children. If rates have always been the same, it’s just better diagnosis bla bla bla, then where were these tens of thousands of out-of-control kids before?

  134. Kelly
    April 5, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    What cia is trying to do here is apply a logical fallacy called “appeal to popularity”. She is trying to distract from the fact that she has no evidence to support her position by saying, “see these people think the same way I do”. This is a fallacy because the number of people that share the idea doesn’t make that idea any more or less true. What is important is the evidence that supports the idea, which cia has none.

    Don’t fall for this attempt to deceive and critically evaluate what cia says. Her rhetoric is just fantasy to support her bias that she and her daughter are supposedly vaccine-injured. We have previously established that cia and her daughter are not vaccine-injured based on the information CIA herself offered and didn’t realize provided evidence of her lies.

  135. cia parker
    April 6, 2012 at 10:42 am

    What is your basis for saying my daughter and I were not vaccine-damaged? I would not spend so much time posting on the dangers of vaccines hoping to warn others if I were not certain that we have been.

  136. cia parker
    April 6, 2012 at 10:52 am

    This is Dr. Sears’ recommendation for designing a feasible vax/unvax study. Vaccine Book 2011 edition, p. 227-8.
    “This research could be done if families could volunteer for one group or the other. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of babies born each year in our country whose parents decide to delay or decline vccines, it shouldn’t be hard to find placebo volunteers.
    The parents would not be blinded, so their observations and opinions on their child’s health would not be part of the study. The only people who would need to be blinded are those who test the children for signs of autism. So is this research going to happen? Possibly. In 2011, the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee, which is the federal government’s autism policy-making board, shifted its research priorities toward investigating environmental causes of autism, and it included vaccines on its agenda. This indicates that the IACC does not consider this matter closed. This has prompted the CDC to consider studying autism as a possible outcome of vaccination, including a compaison of vaccinated and unvaccinated children. While the CDC has not yet agreed to do this research, I want to be optimistic and believe that it will occur. If it does, we won’t have ny results for many years. Until then, there will continue to be doubt in the minds of some parents, and a proportion of our population will continue to remain unvaccinated.”

  137. cia parker
    April 6, 2012 at 11:18 am

    These are ALL PHARMA-FUNDED STUDIES!

    No association between vaccine mercuty and autism:
    “Association between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism,”Anders H. et al., Journal of the AMA 2003; 290(13):1763-1766.

    “Mercury concentrations and metabolism in infants receiving vaccines containing thimerosal: a descriptive study,” Pichichero M., et al., Lancet 2002;360(9347):1737-1741.

    “On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes,” Smith M., and Woods C., Pediatrics 2010;125(6):1134-1141.

    Autism continued to increase even after mercury removed from vaccines:
    “Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data,” Madsen K, et al., Pediatrics 2003;112:604-606. Fraudulent Poul Thorsen one.

    “Continuing increases in autism reported to California’s developmental services system,” Schechter R. and Grether J., Archives of General Psychiatry 2008;65(1):19-24.

    “Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and links with immunizations, ” Fombonne E., et al., Pediatrics 2006;118;e139-e150.

    Rates of autism compared with cumulative levels of mercury in vaccines and found no association:

    “Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism, “Price C. et al., Pediatrics 2010;126:656-664.

    “Safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines: a two-phased study of computerized health maintenance organization database, Verstreten T. et al., Pediatrics 2003;112:1039-1048.

    “Autism and thimerosal-containing vaccines: lack of consistent evidence for an association,” Stehr-Green P., American Journal of Preventive Medicine 2003; 25(2):101-106.

    “Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a prospective cohort study in the U.K. does not support a causal association,” Heron J. et al., Pediatrics 2004;114:577-583.

    “Early thimerosal exposure and neuropsychological outcomes,” Thompson W. et al, New England Journal of Medicine 2007; 357:1281-1292.

    Dr. Sears observes about these studies: “The primary drawback to most of this research is that virtually all of it is funded by the vaccine manufacturers or researcheres who receive funding from them or by various governments (British, Danish, and U.S.) that would be held liable if mercury was found to be a problem. That creates an inherent and unavoidable bias in this research. See page 187 for more on conflict of interest. …
    The 2003 Verstraeten study in Pediatrics is another favorite of the “mercury is safe” crowd. Although at first it was considered reliable, it was later discovered (in unpublished CDC research made public by the Freedom of Information Act) that the study initially showed that vaccine mercury actually increased the risk of autism sevenfold. But instead of publishing that result, researchers expanded the study to include tens of thousands of additional children who were part of a bankrupt HMO that failed to keep adequate medical records, essentially diluting the study with enough nonautistic children to give the result that the mercury did not cause autism. …There is a large body of research evidence that mercury exposure (through pollution) increases the risk of autism…Yet many mainstream researchers continue to insist that vaccine mercury is safe. None of these studies compared a large group of children who received the complete array of mercury-containing vaccines to a group who got mercuty-free vaccines. This would be a conclusive way to study this issue…Very few studies look at vaccines themselves. They study mercury content, and they look at the MMR vaccine (below, and a subject for another post), but there is very little research that has investigated a correlation between vaccination itself and autism.” (215-6)

    While mercury has been removed from most vaccines, decades after it became obvious it was dangerous, it is still in normal flu vaccines, which dealers push on children as well as adults every year now, from the age of six months on. For a dollar extra you can get a mercury-free version, and just take your chances with all the other dangerous ingredients.

  138. Kelly
    April 6, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Pharma shill gambit and conspiracy theory are the only recourse for those that cannot refute the science itself. In order to maintain her delusional belief that vaccines cause autism (her daughter’s supposed “vaccine injury”), cia has to find something, anything, to dismiss the overwhelming amount of evidence that shows her belief is false. The fact that she favors fantasy over reality says a lot about her ability to provide accurate information about vaccines. She is lying to herself and needs to validate those lies by spreading the same misinformation to others.

  139. Mmom
    April 7, 2012 at 12:22 am

    Then tell me why my MD doctor and other MD doctors he got together with to find something from the “overwhelming amount of evidence that vaccines are safe” found nothing reliable. Are they stupid and delusional too as all of us? Okay, maybe we are not perfect and we are not doctors and scientists, but how about all the professionals: MDs, immunologists, biologists, doctors and more? That leaves you and your group SO smart and know all people. Pharma is unreliable just because they are who sells drugs and interested pushing them on the market and make $$$$. It simple as that. They rushed on the marked too many drugs that were recalled later on after too many people were injured and die. And FDA was a part of it letting them get this poison on the market without proper testing. I don’t know about you, but I don’t trust Pharma and FDA at all.

  140. Mmom
    April 7, 2012 at 12:23 am

    You know for sure somehow that Cia’s daughter did not get autism because of vaccine or that her and her family did not got injuries from them as well. Are you SO smart that you can see and diagnose her through a computer. Incredible! You are a supper human! Then surely you can drink and inject any kind of poison in yourself and be okay, but sorry we are just humans here and there is also overvaluing information on vaccine injury and we care about ourselves and others. But anything that says that they cause injury you say it is not true and unreliable. On what ground you disqualify all those publications? They are also coming from scientist and doctors and other professionals.

  141. Mmom
    April 7, 2012 at 12:23 am

    And please stop “turning table around”. It is a such corny strategy you use. Just answer a single question we asked you. Also start proving your statements with something solid and something we can read and say, okay this is real, instead saying us “all this studies”. Where are they?

  142. Kelly
    April 7, 2012 at 12:50 am

    Do you feel better now?

    The appeal to authority is interesting. How about we ignore all the doctors and scientists who *say* vaccines are unsafe and ineffective and look at the evidence they use to support that statement. I have yet to see someone reach that conclusion without making a mistake in logic and/or understanding the science.

    The evidence supporting vaccines can be found indexed on PubMed and in the reports recommending the vaccine. These recommendations are supported by experts worldwide. If you don’t understand why these experts recommend vaccines, you haven’t done enough reading on the topic to make the decision to go against these recommendations.

  143. Chris
    April 7, 2012 at 11:33 am

    These are ALL PHARMA-FUNDED STUDIES!

    Why did you muck with the cites? The first one is by Hviid. Many of them are funded by the CDC and other public health agencies, some examples:

    JAMA 2003; 290(13):1763-1766: “This study was supported by grant 11 from the Danish National Research Foundation and grant 22-02-0293 from the Danish Medical Research Council. ”

    Archives of General Psychiatry 2008;65(1):19-24: “This study was supported through the California Department of Public Health.”

    Pediatrics 2006;118;e139-e150: “Dr Fombonne’s salary support is partially funded through the Canada Research Chair Canadian Institutes for Health Research (to Dr Fombonne and McGill University).
    We are indebted to Dr Monique Landry from the Direction Générale de la Santé Publique of Montreal, Ministère de la Santé et des Services Sociaux, for her assistance in obtaining precise data on the immunization schedules in Quebec and to Nicole Boulianne de la Direction de Santé Publique de la Capitale Nationale for providing data on MMR uptake surveys.”

    Pediatrics 2010;126:656-664: “This work was supported by a contract from the CDC to America’s Health Insurance Plans and via America’s Health Insurance Plans subcontracts to Abt Associates Inc; Department of Population Medicine, Harvard Pilgrim Health Care Institute, Harvard Medical School; Southern California Kaiser Permanente, and Center for Vaccine Research, University of California Los Angeles; and Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente Northern California.”

    Pediatrics 2004;114:577-583.: “Funding for this study was provided by the Department of Health (Ref VIE 134/1).”

    N Engl J Med. 2007 Sep 27;357(13):1281-92. (this is the one that Sallie Bernard helped design, it is cute that Ms. Parker is telling us that SafeMinds is Pharma funded): “Supported by the CDC.”

    This is why we never trust anything cut and pasted by Ms. Parker. Of course she will play the six degrees of freedom because one of the authors may have worked for or received a grant from a pharmaceutical company. Though by the nebulous standards used to define “pharma funding” they can now call Sallie Bernard a pharma shill for actually working on the design of the last study.

  144. Mmom
    April 8, 2012 at 2:12 am

    These all studies are about Thimerosal in Vaccines. I did not even talked about it. It was removed from most vaccines, but as I herd there is still trace amount of it anyway. I personally don’t think it was the main problem.

    The problem is overall toxic cocktail of vaccines and one fits all approach to a massive vaccination without any health evaluation of recipients in any way besides taking temperature; plus crazy amount of vaccines poked in our poor children. Anyone with common sense will doubt that this practice can be safe.

    I am asking you show a study on long term safety of vaccines and all the ingredients in them. As far as I know, there are none. I looked for it everywhere I could and I found nothing. So, since you know where they are, then give me a link? I really want to look at it.

  145. Chris
    April 8, 2012 at 2:59 am

    This was a response to Ms. Parker, not to you. If you have an issue with a specific vaccine, then name that vaccine and post the studies that show it is an issue.

    You can start by listing which vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is not available in a thimerosal free version. Right now there are at least four influenza vaccines that have no thimerosal, so please be specific on the specific vaccine including manufacturer.

  146. Chris
    April 8, 2012 at 3:08 am

    Oh, and if you change the subject to aluminum, I am still waiting for you to tell us how to avoid the third most common element on this planet’s crust. So exactly how to you get food not grown in aluminum rich soil?

    And don’t tell me that they put in the fertilizer. It is already in the dirt. And please do not call it a “heavy” metal.

    I want you to be specific on which vaccine and the studies that show it is a problem.

  147. cia parker
    April 8, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    You should certainly not inject a highly-potent neurotoxin into the body, in amounts far higher than would ever accumulate from the ingestion of food with aluminum from the soil.

  148. cia parker
    April 8, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    This is a survey done by a German group, released in September 2011. It shows that the diseases included in the survey were two to five times more common in vaccinated than in unvaccinated children. I’m not going to include the www part, or it would never finish saving.

    vaccineinjury.info/vaccinations-in-general/health-unvaccinated-children/autism-adhd-concentration-hyperactivity-migraine-unvaccinated-children.html

  149. cia parker
    April 8, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Why is thimerosal still included in most flu vaccines? OK, you can pay a dollar extra to get a thimerosal-free version, but why is this extremely dangerous preservative still being used in most of them? My brother is a dentist at a Veteran’s Hospital, and he unwisely gets the flu vaccine every year, but doesn’t bother to ask for a thimerosal-free version. Should the uninformed majority just be poisoned ad libitum?

  150. cia parker
    April 8, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Thank you, Mmom, I couldn’t understand myself how they could be so sure my daughter didn’t react to the hep-B vaccine with encephalitis, when it was so classic a reaction. Began 90 hours, just short of four days after vaccine was given. Constant, nonstop screaming all the Tuesday night, only stopping for two or three hours when she finally fell asleep at dawn, when she woke to scream nonstop again, for another six hours, on and on until Saturday afternoon. Pediatrician dismissed it as colic (which never occurs in the first week, only, at earliest, the third week, and doesn’t interfere with feeding, as this did). Now they recommend that you rush the baby to the ER if she cries for even three hours without stopping, as that is a prima facie symptom of encephalitis. It may be that twelve years ago vaccine reactions were so far off everyone’s radar that the medical personnel could not have recognized it as a vaccine reaction, but that certainly doesn’t change the fact that it was, and lasting that long, caused severe encephalopathy (including autism).
    I screamed for over a day, nonstop, when I got the DPT at three months old. My father was distraught, and took me to the pediatrician, and told him he wasn’t going to leave until he stopped my screaming. As though the doctor would have any clue how to stop an encephalitic reaction. One might have thought they’d stamp my record with a ” prone to vaccine reaction” stamp, and advised that neither I nor my children get any further vaccines. But instead, I got nine DTPs, six or seven polios, three smallpox vaccines, far more than the protocol even of the time demanded. And with the tenth tetanus vaccine, both my arms were paralyzed for two days, brachioplexal neuropathy, known since 1968 to be caused by the tetanus vaccine, primarily in those who have received a large number of tetanus shots. I am convinced that that is what led to my multiple sclerosis, I believe it set in motion an autoimmune process that culminated in M.S.
    But I, like you, am doing this mostly to warn other parents to do a lot of research and be very cautious before permitting even a single vaccination. No one should think that it couldn’t happen to them, not with one in nine vaccinated children getting asthma and one in six getting some kind of learning disability. It looks like in Utah one in thirty boys is developing autism.

  151. Chris
    April 8, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    It is a homeopath that conducted a phone survey. It is not science, it is a parody of inane nonsense (from above link):

    Does anyone see a problem here? Well, actually, does anyone see several problems, but one glaring problem besides the problem of this being an anonymous Internet survey that anyone can fill out?

    And it was done by someone who thinks that remedies get stronger the more you dilute them.

  152. Chris
    April 8, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    According to this table, four out of eight influenza vaccines for pediatric patients do not have thimerosal. That is half, and not most.

  153. Kelly
    April 8, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    why is this extremely dangerous preservative…

    Citation needed to establish that thimerosal in the flu vaccine is “extremely dangerous”, cia. For someone who supposedly is incapable of lying, you sure do bend the truth a lot.

  154. Kelly
    April 8, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    I’m doing this to warn parents about cia’s tendency to lie. Please do seek confirmation of everything she says. For instance, cia has been shown repeatedly that vaccines are not associated with asthma nor autism nor MS, yet she continues to spread this misinformation to purposefully mislead others.

  155. Chris
    April 8, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    I had a deja vu feeling about this, and yes I told you back in January the same thing! Though, this time the URL for the table works.

  156. Lawrence
    April 9, 2012 at 5:25 am

    @Kelly – it goes back to the idea that, if you’re going to make the wrong choice, at least do it for the right reasons. Instead of “informed consent,” parents are being fed a series of lies, misstatements, exaggerations, and other incorrect information from the anti-vaccinationists.

    There have always been those against vaccinations in general (all the way back to Jenner), it just so happens that today, those same types of people (that even without the autism issue to throw around) utilize the power of the Internet & the 24 hours news cycle to flood the airwaves with their own pet theories & confuse parents as to what they should be concerned about.

    Hard scientific data doesn’t play as well in the blogosphere as “scare tactics & personal stories.” That’s why parents should be consulting with their pediatricians & ignore what people like Cia Parker have to say.

  157. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 9:36 am

    I have had success with homeopathy. It works on a completely different principle than allopathic medicine, but if you don’t care to learn about it and benefit from it, it is certainly your right not to do so.
    Why do you say that it is up to the consumer to finance a vaccine safety study? The onus for any other product is on the manufacturer to prove safety, but in the case of the vaccine industry, they have not done any studies comparing outcomes of a vaccinated group compared to a completely unvaccinated group, preferring instead to only compare differently vaccinated groups.
    You have talked about how ubiquitous aluminum is in the environment, presumably to show how safe it is. But the circulatory system is a closed system, unlike the digestive and respiratory systems, designed to take in food and air from the outside world, and have appropriate filtering and defense mechanisms in place to keep out toxins. The circulatory system is designed to keep out elements from the outside world, which must first go through the filtering process and immune defenses in place in the digestive and respiratory systems before gaining access to the circulatory system. The history of the autoimmune reactions provoked by vaccines injecting chemicals and organic material of many sorts, all antigens, show that the immune system reacts with an often panicked, harmful response which leads to severe adverse events and chronic disease.

  158. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 9:52 am

    This is a passage about the danger of aluminum in vaccines from Dr. Sears’ The Vaccine Book, 2011 edition, pl 245.
    “Read their two-page handout (from Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia). First, they state that infants receive about 4 milligrams (or 4000 mcg) of aluminum in vaccines during the first six months of life, which is true. Then they compare the exposure to the 10 mg of aluminum that infants ingest through breast milk by that time. Since babies are getting so much aluminum anyway, a little more in vaccines shouldn’t cause any harm, right? The handout goes on to explain that only about 1 percent of the aluminum in breast milk actually absorbs into a baby’s body; the rest passes out harmlessly in the stools. This means that while babies are “safely” being injected with 4000 mcg over six months, all of which goes into the bloodstream, they are absorbing only about 100 mcg into the bloodstream via breast milk. To compare these two sources of aluminum exposure, and to state that because oral exposure is safe, injected exposure must also be safe, is scientifically invalid. The injected amount of aluminum is forty times the amount absorbed through breast milk, and it all goes into the bloodstream over a short period of time. The CHOP handout gives scientific references to back up its statements. However, none of the reerences provided are actual studies. They are review articles that undertake theoretical mathematical assessments of what they think aluminum does when injected into human infants…But there isn’t a single actual human infant study. They don’t even reference the only live human internal toxicity study ever done…Even more interesting, Keith’s paper that is referenced in the CHOP article actually concludes that aluminum from vaccines creates a higher body burden than diet and that vaccine aluminum exceeds safe levels for a brief period following injection. The bottom line here is that the CHOP handout sounds good but has insufficient science to back it up. The only way to put this issue to rest is for someone to conduct severeal real-time studies on a good-size group of human infants and measure aluminum levels after vaccination. And researchers should look not just at blood levels. They should find out where aluminum accumulates in the body, if at all, how it is eliminated from the body, and at what rate. Once I see such rsearch, instead of the theoretical mathematical studies and the one very small decades-old human adult study, and I determine to my satisfaction that alluminum has been proven safe, then I will post an update…”

  159. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 9:59 am

    I would refer the interested reader to Dr. Sears’ entire section on aluminum in The Vaccine Book. He references many studies which have shown that aluminum causes kidney, neurological, and degenerative problems like dementia. I don’t care if readers take my word for it, in fact I would prefer they not do anything just on my recommendation, but I would advise them to go way beyond just asking their pediatrician’s opinion. Read Dr. Sears, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Randall Neustaedter, Cynthia Cournoyer, Wendy Lydall, Aviva Jill Romm, Judy Converse, Vaccine Epidemic, etc., before making a decision. Your child’s health and future well-being are surely worth a lot of research in this unsettled time of hundreds of thousands of vaccine-damaged families pitted against the medical industry.

  160. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 9:59 am

    http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

    Ms. Parker:

    The onus for any other product is on the manufacturer to prove safety, but in the case of the vaccine industry, they have not done any studies comparing outcomes of a vaccinated group compared to a completely unvaccinated group, preferring instead to only compare differently vaccinated groups.

    But you don’t like studies paid for by the pharmaceutical companies. And you have been shown this study many times: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents. Now you don’t like it because it is not Pharma funded? Now you are moving goalposts.

    designed to take in food and air from the outside world, and have appropriate filtering and defense mechanisms in place to keep out toxins.

    Then stop using studies about IV feeding solutions and drinking water to prove it is dangerous. Stick to studies only on vaccines, of which there are several showing that the tiny amount in vaccines are safe. Aluminum adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for decades. The only reason you are bringing it up is because the “mercury in vaccines” bit is dead.

    Make up your mind and stop moving goalposts.

  161. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 10:10 am

    I have had success with homeopathy. It works on a completely different principle than allopathic medicine, but if you don’t care to learn about it and benefit from it, it is certainly your right not to do so.

    It is still a self-selected internet survey, which is the total opposite of real data. It means nothing. It is even worse than raw VAERS data.

    And do tell how homeopathy helped these people, especially these kids: Isabella Denley and Gloria Sam.

  162. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 10:13 am

    We’ve told you before multiple times that none of those people are not to be trusted for real science. But you keep spamming their books. Do you work for them as some kind of anti-science author shill?

  163. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Ooops. a double negative.

    None of those people can be trusted for science. They are all scamming parents, especially Sears: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

  164. Lawrence
    April 9, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Since Thimersol has fallen out of favor with the anti-vax wack-a-loons, now it is Aluminum – which should give them a few years of “spreading the fear” until they can come up with the next great “toxin-link.”

    Of course, try to tell them that we’re not talking about straight aluminum (like trying to convince them that Thimersol wasn’t straight mercury) is a lost cause – they will do anything to keep up their belief that vaccines are bad, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

  165. Kelly
    April 9, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    I agree Lawrence. I have yet to encounter an anti-vaxer with a legitimate reason not to vaccinate. Even one that says “hey, yeah, I know vaccines are safe and effective, but I prefer to take the larger risk with the diseases, thank you”. Every single one uses misinformation, misconception and logical fallacy to justify their choice.

    cia parker is a good example of this, as she has been shown repeatedly how her position is not based on reality, but she doesn’t care. She continues to spread her lies under the disguise of trying to “warn” others. The good news is that her motivation is very transparent, but some of the others are a little better at lying than she is and I’m concerned that parents who truly want to make an informed choice are mislead by the anti-vaxers.

  166. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    It would solve a lot of my problems if someone were paying me for what I post, but I actually do it pro bono. The interested reader should take into account what Dr. Sears says about the dearth of safety studies on the safety of aluminum in vaccines, and the evidence pointing to their danger. If he is so inclined, he should do his own research. He will ignore the evidence against vaccines at his and his children’s peril. Sure, read criticism of Dr. Sears, but be sure to consider the source of the criticism as well as decide if it is credible. I read an unfair attack on him by Offit three or four years ago, but Offit has so many vested interests that you would have to question his credibility. In my opinion, Dr. Sears does not go far enough in questioning the advisability of vaccines, again, probably for financial reasons: he has staked out his place as a moderate on the question, so he has to recommend a lot of vaccines in a lot of circumstances. He doesn’t mention all the studies establishing the link between the pertussis vaccine and asthma, and I believe it must be because his position demands the use of it, so he doesn’t want to point out a big danger like that. But his sections in The Vaccine Book on the birth of the hepatitis-B campaign for newborns (on fabricated evidence) and on the dangers of aluminum in vaccines are impressive, based on a lot of scientific evidence, and I think must certainly be taken into account when making this decision. The reader must certainly take into account your vested interests in dismissing him.

  167. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Thimerosal has fallen out of favor because we were able to get it out of most vaccines, except for most flu vaccines, so it is no longer as big a danger as it was. Aluminum is still a big danger, and so we are talking a lot about it.

  168. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    You’re right, I wouldn’t trust a study funded by pharmaceutical companies that found that their vaccines were safe, and I know they wouldn’t publicize a study that found they were unsafe. The government should figure out how to fund a dispassionate study using no one with special interests one way or the other. They have the means and they should have the huge public interest at heart. You haven’t commented on Dr. Sears’ suggestion for a fair vax/unvax study.

  169. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Kelly,
    You did not hold, rock, sing to, and try to nurse a baby who screamed for 18 hours a day for four days and nights. One night I just couldn’t continue to sit in the rocking chair any more, it just wasn’t humanly possible, and I lay down promising myself to just rest for a few minutes with my baby lying face down on my chest. Of course I fell asleep without meaning to, after so many sleepless nights holding her, and woke with a start, terrified that because she was face down, she might have succumbed to crib death. She was out at that time too, for her periodic hour or two of sleep before she woke to scream again. You did not feel the disappointment at each of her missed milestones, the false self-reassurance that surely she’ll do it soon, point, wave, babble, whatever, and she’ll catch up. She has to catch up. And she eventually caught up in some things, now she’s nearly twelve, and can point, wave, and say simple things just fine, but everyone agrees that she has autism. I was forced to conclude that, since so many thousands of parents have experienced the same thing, with the same outcome, that this was caused by the hepatitis-B vaccine. I read the other day that reactions to the hep-B vaccine usually occur three to five days after receiving the vaccine. She got it at ten till 12 midnight Friday, May 5, 2000, having been born at seven-thirty a.m. She started screaming incessantly Tuesday evening, May 9, nearly four days after receiving the vaccine.
    How many of these people you referred to really believe that vaccines are safe and effective? It used to be such a common practice in our society, that don’t you think they’d continue to vaccinate if they weren’t uneasy about their safety, having heard a lot of people with tales similar to mine? More and more people are seeing on sites like this that if their child reacts with a severe adverse effect, it will be dismissed and denied, so that business can proceed as usual. A lot of us aren’t willing to let our child go like that.

  170. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    It has been established that you just continue to lie.

    The interested reader should take into account what Dr. Sears says about the dearth of safety studies on the safety of aluminum in vaccines, and the evidence pointing to their danger.

    And interested reader should know the real reason Dr. Sears does anything: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

  171. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    most flu vaccines,

    And you still continue to lie, even though there is a comment where I explain that four out of eight is not “most” but half.

  172. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    I had to call 911 and ride with a toddler in an ambulance to the hospital because he had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease. We are still dealing with the ongoing neurological issues from those seizures.

    I have also spent a month dealing fever, pain and no sleep by three kids, including a six month old baby, going through chicken pox.

    My experience is more common than yours, as these were common problems with the actual diseases. Disease outcomes do include seizures, deafness, blindness, paralysis, mental retardation and even death. Problems that are becoming less frequent because of vaccines. So I don’t have to get pity points with my anecdotes, I have the actual data:
    Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children—United States, 1900-1998

    You refuse to tell us why the vaccines are worse than the diseases with real evidence, you just trumpet the books written by people who are cashing in the scaremongering you promote.. You continue to tell us that measles is not a problem, but refuse to acknowledge its effect on Roald Dahl’s family.

    You just refuse to learn, and just continue to lie. We have absolutely no reason to believe anything you say, even your anecdotes. As far as we know, you are paid by Sears and friends to promote fear and sell books.

    (It turns out that an employee Bradstreet posted scare stories and promote his treatments on the listserv I was on for my son’s disability about seven years ago.)

  173. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    I looked at the article you mentioned about Dr. Sears on the site Science-based Medicine, and I can only say that it certainly promotes your viewpoint. I don’t think it’s a correct viewpoint, but, again, parents should read a lot from both sides before making up their minds on the vaccine question. Even the U.S. government has admitted that it may be vaccines that have caused the tremendous increase in autism, and so parents must look with mistrust at you guys who insist that vaccines are safe, necessary, effective, and never cause autism or autoimmune disease in all its many forms. Maybe you should nuance your message to take into account all the times vaccines do cause damage, since not many people these days buy your message as currently presented.

  174. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    You don’t get that I don’t care what Sears says? Get a hint: he is just cashing in on the fear you promote. For the third time today: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

    And I have told multiple times that if you want any vax/unvax studies then get Sears, Blaxill, Handley, Redwood, Bernard and the rest of the anti-vax gang to pay for it. We don’t want anymore of our scarce tax money going for more wild goose chases when there are more important issues, like services and medical care for disabled adults (like my son).

    I also gave a link to a vax/unvax study in Germany. The only difference were that the unvaccinated kids became sick more often with vaccine preventable diseases.

  175. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    I don’t think it’s a correct viewpoint,

    Well, since you are always wrong, then it must be the correct viewpoint.

  176. Kelly
    April 9, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    cia,

    I don’t doubt your daughter screamed. I don’t your daughter has autism. What you haven’t established is that your daughter got autism from her Hep B vaccine, especially when previously you blamed her DTaP shot at 18 months for her regression. You have also claimed that you have Aspergers and my understanding is that autism may have a genetic link.

    You weren’t forced to conclude anything. You have defined yourself by being “vaccine-injured” and the mother of a “vaccine-injured” daughter. You cannot let go of your belief because that would mean denying a part of your identity. To deal with the cognitive dissonnance you: (1) villify those that oppose you by calling us pharma shills that put profit above safety. (2) You avoid answering questions because the answer clearly shows you are wrong. (3) You minimize the risk of the diseases and elevate the risk of vaccines.

    A common logical fallacy is “post hoc ergo propter hoc” or “correlation does not equal causation”. This has been explained to you numberous times and you still don’t get it.

    You have not presented any evidence to support any of your claims and there is a whole lot of evidence that makes your claims unlikely. You are being denied and dismissed because you are a liar, not because we don’t take vaccine injuries seriously.

    You are persistent and continuously keep telling your lies with the hopes that someone will validate them for you. We must be persistent in pointing out that you are lying because we aren’t willing to let an innocent child suffer harm on the off chance that someone might find your lies believable.

  177. Kelly
    April 9, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Even the U.S. government has admitted that it may be vaccines that have caused the tremendous increase in autism,

    Citation needed, cia.

  178. Kelly
    April 9, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Maybe you should nuance your message to take into account all the times vaccines do cause damage, since not many people these days buy your message as currently presented.

    This is the CDC’s Parent Guide to Immunizations: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/parents-gui de/

    Section 3 very clearly explaines the risks of vaccines and what damage can be done by them.

  179. cia parker
    April 9, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Kelly,
    What was the disease that caused your chlld’s seizures? Maybe pneumococcal meningitis? I don’t know, you’ll have to tell me. I’m very sorry for what you experienced. I recognize that both the diseases and the vaccines present dangers, and it’s important for parents to inform themselves well about both sides before making a decision.

    My daughter reacted adversely to at least two vaccines, there is no contradiction, no lie, just as I reacted adversely to both the DPT as an infant and the tetanus booster when I was nineteen. My daughter reacted with encephalitis to the hep-B vaccine, and then missed all her communication milestones. She should have babbled, pointed, and so on, one word by twelve months, several by fifteen months, and so on. The doctor hadn’t been alarmed until she hit twelve months and still wasn’t saying anything, when he said to get her hearing tested and so on. She had started saying two words by eighteen months, uh for up standing at the bottom of the slide at the playground, and uff when she saw a dog. After she got the DTaP booster at eighteen months, she never said either one again, and didn’t say anything else until the end of March 2003, when she was nearly three, 34 and a half months old. At that time she started saying the baby repeated syllables like peepee, baba, mama, it was funny, I never thought I’d hear them coming from her lips, and she was already way too big to be saying the traditional first words for babies. The summer she was three she’d say apples and cheese, and by October was saying Mama and Ceecee both eat pizza. She had been diagnosed with suspected autism at 20 months, and the First Steps people came to our home in June 2002 and found that she was on the level of a fifteen-month old for one area and a nine-month old in another.

    To me it seems clear that she was seriously damaged by the hepatitis-B vaccine and reacted with the four days and nights of endless screaming. I don’t know what the outcome would have been if the DTaP had not further damaged her and obliterated the only two words she had acquired. This is not a lie, and I think when you call me a liar most people would say you are being cruel and unfair, and damaging your own credibility.

  180. Lawrence
    April 9, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Again, when did you file your claim with the Vaccine Court?

  181. Kelly
    April 9, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    My children do not suffer from seizures. You are confusing me with Chris.

    And again, cia, it is your belief that your daughter reacted to two vaccines, which given the rarity of vaccine reactions and that vaccines don’t cause autism, makes this claim very unlikely. As Lawrence has asked you, when did you file your claim with the vaccine court? Why do you refuse to answer this question? What evidence do you have that what you say is true and not just a case of improperly assigning causation when it is only correlation?

    You have demonstrating repeatedly that you are a liar cia. You knowingly post information that is false, again and again and again, even after it has been explained why that information is false and misleading. I don’t think it is cruel and unfair to call you a liar for lying. What would be cruel and unfair is if someone decides not to vaccinate because you have mislead them into thinking vaccines are harmful and their child suffers because of your lies.

    As for credibility, I think a simple read through the comments on this thread adequately demonstrates who is repeatedly lying (going back months) and who is doing the correcting of those lies by posting evidence that refute your lies.

  182. Chris
    April 9, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    It does not matter it is only an anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not data. Besides, there is no way to tell if I am telling the truth. I only mention it to point out that the diseases are not happy fun time. They cause injury and death, and can be very expensive.

    What you need is the real evidence, which I am willing to post, but you are not. Here is another paper with data: Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States.

    Here are some more:

    Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
    Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
    Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    Now where is your evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases? No more anecdotes or flogging books from those who are not qualified in epedimiology.

  183. cia parker
    April 10, 2012 at 9:43 am

    You and Lawrence asked when I had filed in Vaccine Court. I contacted a lawyer at a law firm in Kansas City that specializes in vaccine damage cases, and Mr. Dempsey told me that while he had heard so many stories of autism resulting from vaccine damage that he believed it, to his knowledge there was no law firm in the country willing to take a case alleging that vaccines had caused a child’s autism. I’ve read that while many children have been compensated for seizures and encephalopathy, including autism, caused by vaccines, no one alleging just autism had been compensated for the last few decades, except Hannah Poling. The A word is the kiss of death for a lawsuit. I thought that if the deck has been rigged, why go through all that stress with no hope of success?
    I’m sorry, Chris, I did confuse you with Kelly. But it’s not true that anecdote is meaningless. It happened, it has a cause, the question is just investigating to find out what the cause is. I say just, I realize that in many cases it would be hard to design a study (which still does not mean that there is no cause or that it did not happen). In this case, many parents are frightened, because everyone knows autistic children now, everyone has seen them at church or at their children’s school, people older than thirty or forty remember that this is new, it was not always so. Everyone has heard the anecdotes about vaccines having caused it, especially in the cases of the children developing normally until they got the MMR, when they suddenly lost their skills and often developed bowel disease as well.

  184. cia parker
    April 10, 2012 at 10:04 am

    I just looked at Ginger Taylor’s blog Adventures in Autism to remember the name of the man who was interviewed two weeks ago, and I also saw two interesting new studies that I thought I might mention.
    As I said the week before last, Dr. Walter Zahorodny on the Brian Lehrer show was interviewed by Seth Mnookin’s friend Kurt Andersen, who asked him to confirm that vaccines don’t cause autism, and he answered that some cases of autism probably were caused by vaccine reaction. He was in charge of the Pennsylvania statistics, which found that autism is more common there than in most of the country, one in 49, I think, one in around 30 boys? Like in Utah. And the director of Autism Speaks, Geri Dawson, who only last year said that no one was permitted to talk about vaccines causing autism any more, it was so clear that they didn’t, was interviewed on NPR by Tom Ashbrook, and said the same thing, that vaccines did sometimes cause autism.
    One study was “Hepatitis B Vaccine Causes Mitochondrial Disorders and Cell Death,” Apoptosis 2012 Jan. 17, epub ahead of print, by Hamza H., Cao J., Li Z.
    The other was: “Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Safety Research,” in Accountability in Research 19: 65-88, 2012, by Gayle DeLong.

  185. Lawrence
    April 10, 2012 at 10:05 am

    @CIA – I call bullshit. There are claims being made even as we speak, and if you were serious about actually “proving” instead of sitting on sites like this and spouting off (with no evidence) your pack of lies, you would do whatever was in your power to file.

    And I will also say, that being involved in my local community here, PTA, parents groups, etc. that I have yet to hear anyone that believes the typical crap spouted by the folks at AoA & other crackpots. In fact, Autism Speaks is very well regarded as an organization that actually attempts to help the parents of autistic children with various forms of behavioral therapies, assistance with schools, and policy changes that effect their lives……as opposed to AoA which only seeks to assign blame and makes the diagnosis of autism seem like a death sentence.

    So, man (or woman)-up. File your claim, if you truly believe what you say.

  186. Nathan
    April 10, 2012 at 10:51 am

    As I said the week before last, Dr. Walter Zahorodny on the Brian Lehrer show was interviewed by Seth Mnookin’s friend Kurt Andersen, who asked him to confirm that vaccines don’t cause autism, and he answered that some cases of autism probably were caused by vaccine reaction.

    It’s fair to make such a hypothesis, but we still need scientific evidence to substantiate such a statement. But let’s assume for the moment this is true. If so, it is occurring at a rate so low that it is not detectable by large epidemiologic studies. And since will rubella is a known cause of autism, and diseases like measles cause encephalitis or encephalopathy (which can be associated with some symptoms of autism) at a rate several orders of magnitude higher than a vaccine, then it follows that vaccination reduces your risk of autism.

  187. Nathan
    April 10, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Cia, you are simply making stuff up again. Wild shingles occurs in children as well, and is far more likely than shingles from the vaccine. Vaccination has greatly reduced the incidence of shingles in children.

    http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2009/12000/Incidence_of_Herpes_Zoster_Among_Children.11.aspx

  188. Nathan
    April 10, 2012 at 11:02 am

    The basis is that you have claimed several things as vaccine damage that have been extensively studied and shown to not be vaccine damage. No one here is questioning how strongly you believe it, but you are demonstrating a willingness to play fast and loose with the facts to make them fit what you believe.

  189. Nathan
    April 10, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Great advice. Good thing we don’t. The amount of aluminum that bioaccumulates from a vaccine is miniscule compared to your lifetime bioaccumulation. It is certainly no so highly-potent that the amount in vaccines has a measurable effect.

  190. Chris
    April 10, 2012 at 11:08 am

    In this case, many parents are frightened, because everyone knows autistic children now, everyone has seen them at church or at their children’s school, people older than thirty or forty remember that this is new, it was not always so.

    Because they are no longer locked up in places like Willowbrook, also known as Hell on Earth. So pony up those real studies that show vaccines cause more harm than the diseases, and stop lying.

  191. Kelly
    April 10, 2012 at 11:09 am

    So even a lawyer is not willing to take your money because he doesn’t believe you have a case. So why do you keep saying your daughter is vaccine-injured when even your lawyer doesn’t believe you and the science is clearly not on your side? Oh yeah, that’s because you lie.

    Hannah Poling was not compensated for having autism. She has a mitochondrial disorder that lead to a high fever and autism-like symptoms after being administered vaccines. A similar result would have occurred if she got sick with any infection that triggered a high fever. The vaccines were just given before this happened.

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0802904

  192. Chris
    April 10, 2012 at 11:14 am

    The first cite is on cells in a petri dish, and makes no sense.

    Gayle DeLong was on the SafeMinds board, and as an economics professor wrote a terrible paper claiming any kid you received speech and language services was autistic. She literally claimed all those who received SLI (Speech Language Intervention) were autistic.

    And if you are going to go all crazy about conflicts of interests, then you will have stop worshipping Wakefield.

    Stop grasping at straws. Show us exactly how much worse the vaccines are than the diseases, and not in petri dishes!

  193. Nathan
    April 10, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Since there is a pertussis booster generally given at age 11, your claim is obviously false. The question is whether the booster should be given earlier, and I expect this may happen at some point.

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  199. Ellsworth engage
    April 9, 2014 at 8:50 pm

    I completely agree with Steve Michaels,and to the person who compared a kid to kitchen appliances,nice try buddy I bet you fell for Obamacare and it’s “benefits” too,huh?

  200. novalox
    April 9, 2014 at 10:35 pm

    @ellsworth

    Again, where is the actual evidence, necromancer, since steve always failed to produce any actual evidence for his assertions?

  201. Natasha
    May 1, 2014 at 4:45 am

    I dont know what your problem is or why you write such utter crap, but you actually disgust me, creating a blame culture. A load of bollocks. If vaccines are 85-95 % effective you utter idiot how can you PROVE the infection/outbreak started with an UNVACCINATED child. Just saying it makes you look as insane as the doctor saying it gives you autism. Never as clear cut as that but hey its only children we are injecting with chemicals that don’t guarantee anything. There are some real strange parents out there.

  202. Lawrence
    May 1, 2014 at 4:50 am

    @Natasha – pretty easy to prove actually, like in these instances:

    http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm

    Unvaccinated individuals are traveling to parts of the world where Measles is still endemic, getting infected & returning home just in time to start a new chain of infection. Come on, this isn’t rocket science, you know….

  203. novalox
    May 1, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    @natasha

    You do know that everything we consume is chemicals, right? So does that mean that you don’t eat, drink, or accept IVs?

  204. May 2, 2014 at 11:15 am

    I’m not worried about my child, I’m worried about yours.

  205. Narad
    May 2, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    I’m not worried about my child, I’m worried about yours.

    Given your mandatory arbitration agreement (PDF), clearly:

    “This agreement is also intended to bind any children of the patient whether born or unborn at the time of the occurrence giving rise to any claim.”

  1. April 13, 2011 at 3:44 pm
  2. June 3, 2011 at 2:33 pm
  3. November 29, 2011 at 1:55 pm
  4. December 21, 2011 at 12:57 pm
  5. September 19, 2013 at 10:54 am
  6. January 22, 2014 at 10:10 am
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