Home > Parent Perspective, Science & Research, Vaccine Myths > Why My Child With Autism Is Fully Vaccinated

Why My Child With Autism Is Fully Vaccinated

October 4, 2010

Last week, we read a terrific blog p0st from Shannon Des Roches Rosa on The Thinking Person’s Guide To Autism blog.  It was so wonderfully written – heartfelt, down to earth, personable and factual – that we asked Shannon if we could repost her blog here at Shot of Prevention.  As you will see, Shannon is not only the smart and caring mother of an autistic child, but a great vaccine advocate as well.  Thank you Shannon for “shouting out loud”!   We hear you and want others to hear you too.

Do you still wonder if there’s a link between vaccines and autism? Then ask yourself: have you or would you ever let your child travel by airplane? If your answer is “yes,” then you should re-examine any concerns about vaccinating your children. Flying and vaccination both carry risks, but those risks are statistically unlikely to affect your family.

You should also know that Andrew Wakefield, the researcher who launched the autism-vaccine panic via a 1998 press conference, had his related research formally retracted and his medical license taken away. You should know that the mainstream media, after years of “considering both sides,” now yawns when yet another study fails to find a link between vaccines and autism — and that gossip sites like HollywoodLife.com want to know why anti-vaccination activist Jenny McCarthy won’t publicly end her campaign against children’s health. You should consider that decreased vaccination rates put our children’s health at risk; children can and do die from vaccine-preventable diseases, and those diseases are resurfacing with increasing vigor.

Still, no amount of evidence seems to satisfy parents who continue to believe in vaccine-autism causation. I understand fears like theirs, as I’ve been there myself. I remember the stone age of 2003: my two-year-old son Leo had just been diagnosed with autism, and I was desperate to help him.

  

My first action was to enroll Leo in an ABA program — the only method proven to help children with autism gain skills. But ABA is hard work and doesn’t promise miracles, and I wanted changes, fast. I craved a son who could tell me, “Mommy, I love you!,” so I started exploring alternative autism therapies.

And indeed, I found many self-appointed autism professionals who wanted me to look past the challenging but loving boy I already had and focus on a theoretical Recovered Boy of the future. I also found myself looking past their promotion of scientifically questionable approaches, and focusing on one of their popular theories: they thought mercury in vaccines caused autism.

Those anti-vaccination people were passionate about “curing” autistic children. I was passionate, I wanted to cure my autistic child. I did what they told me.

I stopped vaccinating my kids.

My youngest child was born in 2004, eighteen months after her brother’s diagnosis and during the thick of my alternative-treatment frenzy. Almost every autism activism resource I found implied or proclaimed that Leo’s autism was likely caused by an injected environmental factor. I freaked out, and decided there was no way in hell my new baby girl was getting a shot of anything. Not even vitamin K.

As that fortunately healthy baby grew and thrived, so did the evidence refuting a thimerosal/vaccine/autism link. Unfortunately, so did the rates of preventable and potentially lethal diseases. Turns out I wasn’t the only parent who’d been scared into tossing aside my kids’ vaccine schedules.

I wanted proof that vaccinations had in fact affected my son, so I formally investigated a possible relationship between Leo’s autism and the vaccinations he’d received as an infant and toddler. I enrolled him in a MIND Institute study on autism and regression that tracked the emergence of his autism symptoms via home videos, medical records, and my own journals.

The result: there was no evidence that Leo had regressed into autism after being vaccinated.

I thought long and hard. And decided that the risks of vaccinating my children were acceptable.

I started slowly, under the supervision of a pediatrician willing to listen to my concerns. My youngest child initially got only one shot at a time, only when she was healthy, and with a month between doses, because I wanted to see how she reacted to individual vaccines. She had no adverse reactions, so I began to allow vaccinations in small batches. I also resumed vaccinating my son — you know, the one with autism. Both kids remain fine, or at least no quirkier than they were before their shots.

Mine is not the only vaccination perspective you should be familiar with, however. As you likely know, there is no talking about vaccines and autism without mentioning “safe” vaccine advocate Jenny McCarthy. Ms. McCarthy once declared:

“If you ask a parent of an autistic child if they want the measles or the autism, we will stand in line for the f___ing measles.”

Really? If we’re going to celebrities rather than experts for our information, I have to counter with the Law and Order: SVU episode Selfish, in which a child too young to be vaccinated died from encephalitis as a complication of measles; measles acquired at a neighborhood park from an unsymptomatic carrier kid whose mother refused to vaccinate him.

I’m sorry, Jenny, but Mariska Hargitay, Christopher Meloni, Ice-T, and Stephanie March say that measles kills and that we need to vaccinate our kids not just to keep them healthy, but also to protect other people’s kids. And because the SVU team members are celebrities too but outnumber you, I’m going to side with them.

I kid, but only slightly, as I really do prefer my son alive, autism and all. And I seriously doubt Jenny would volunteer to give her son measles — or pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, tetanus, or polio, if she’d actually seen these diseases affect a child, or considered that acquiring the diseases is much riskier than getting vaccinated for them.

Jenny is not alone in underestimating the critical role of vaccines, or the diseases they prevent. In June 2010, I participated in a conference call with EveryChildByTwo, a non-profit dedicated to educating the public about vaccine-preventable disease. I listened as Danielle Romaguera described her infant daughter Brie’s 2003 death from pertussis — a disease herd immunity was supposed to protect the baby from, as she was too young to be vaccinated; a disease vaccine campaigns had squelched so successfully that her doctors didn’t recognize it, not until it was too late. A disease that caused baby Brie so much pain and suffering that a Romaguera family friend chose to fully vaccinate her child with autism.

A disease that, seven years later, has been declared an epidemic in California. Katharine Mieszkowski of BayCitizen.org, using her organization’s excellent interactive California immunizations statistics database, observed:

“Marin and Sonoma Counties have reported the highest rates of whooping cough in the Bay Area this year. They also have the highest local rates of personal-belief [vaccine] exemption.”

When I talked with Katharine, she said that budget-challenged California schools don’t always have the resources or a school nurse to properly monitor immunization compliance.  She also said parents who took out personal belief exemptions were worried about possibilities like their kids’ immune system being overwhelmed — which, to me, means they probably weren’t consulting a pediatrician on the matter. And a personal belief exemption doesn’t differentiate between skipping a few vaccines, and skipping all of them — so while we have data on vaccination non-compliance, we don’t have complete information on specific vaccination rates. All we know is that California parents are choosing to put their children at risk.

We live in a culture where some people make critical health decisions for their children based on the opinions of celebrities rather than pediatricians. I’m asking you to help right the balance, to ensure that science-based viewpoints counter earnest but misinformed sensationalism in the autism — and parenting — communities’ information flows.

I know that some people will never vaccinate their kids, no matter the argument or evidence (and 2010 has been a banner year for both scientific evidence and court decisions debunking autism-vaccine links). I also know some kids can’t be vaccinated due to health or age conflicts. Herd immunity will compensate, will keep the unvaccinated kids safe from disease if enough other children get vaccinated. That is why we must reach out and talk to parents who are still formulating their immunization opinions, to educate with facts rather than furor, to have the confidence to spread the word about what we know, to tear down the wall of harm that anti-vaccinationists have erected, and to shout out loud:

There is no link between autism and vaccinations! I believe it is my social responsibility to vaccinate my child!

This article was written by Shannon Des Roches Rosa and appeared on September 27th on A Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism.   A version of this essay was also previously published at www.Blogher.com. Shannon’s other works can be found at

Squidalicious.com parenting first, autism second
BlogHer.com contributing editor, parenting children with special needs
ThinkingAutismGuide.com The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism

  1. John Fryer Chemist
    October 5, 2010 at 4:27 am

    Hi Shannon

    I would love to dabate with you on vaccine harm.

    I cannot see how you can clear vaccines of harm unless you have another reason for the harm and illness in your family.

    For me it is important to keep all options open until definite proof is found.

    The one in three children in 2010 USA is a figure I cannot believe but we are told it is true.

    There are so many reasons to implicate harm from vaccines it is inconceivable they are innocent. In fact no one is disputing their harm only that for any case you cannot prove harm.

    With plane crashes like autism you are certain of harm but like autism you cannot prove for any particular case with few exceptions why the plane crashed.

    Take the crash to concorde. Was it a terrorist working at the airport who disconnected the fuel lines or do we believe that magically the damage was done on the runway checked 5 minutes before takeoff.

    We are in this world left with expert opinions that are based on Witch Craft rather than facts.

  2. October 5, 2010 at 11:35 am

    I’m afraid it wouldn’t be much of a debate, as my position is “research demonstrates,” and yours is “I don’t believe you.”

  3. Zoe
    October 5, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Hi Shannon,

    Your article was beautifully written and I agree that we shouldn’t want our children to contract lethal diseases. I’m just struggling to understand how we know for sure that vaccines, in combination with genes or paternal age or pre-natal maternal stress or some other factors do not at all influence change in behavior. I understand the research shows that mercury does not cause autism, but until we know what does, how do we know some other factor, like high dosage of certain vaccines in lower birth weight children, might not? I’m with you, vaccinating my younger child on a slow schedule, but research is not definitive until there is an answer.

  4. Shannon DeBalli
    October 5, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    I was so pleased to read your article. Fantastic work, I have 3 sons, two with autism. The one with out Autism got even more vaccines than his brothers. For me it comes down to 1 thing…if you think potentially dead or physically sick is better than Autism you shouldn’t be a parent.

  5. Anne
    October 5, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    Hi Shannon,

    Your article was wonderful. As a Mother of 3 boys, 2 with autism, I too looked at all aspects of why my boys had autism. The 2 with autism were C-section babies, and the one that is typical was a vaginal delivery. Could it have been that I drank diet coke when I was pregnant? Could it have been the vaccines? I chose to keep vaccinating my boys. My youngest who is the most severe with autism was born in 2003. We chose single antigens, but at least we vaccinated him. ( I would have done this with my older boys but they were vaccinated before all of the awareness of vaccines came about) . My point is that we still need to help with research on Autism because we do not know for sure what the cause is. I like that you did your research. Thank you.
    Anne Marie Robol

  6. Beth B
    October 6, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Shannon, you are free to think whatever you like, but my research led me to believe exactly the opposite. My children’s urinary porphyrins are off the charts – literally. They were severely physiologically damaged from the mercury and aluminum in their vaccines and I have proof of this from a laboratory in France. Of course there are other heavy metal exposures in the air, soil, and water, but by directly injecting these known neurotoxins into the bloodstreams of children, could not possibly be beneficial. There is a new study out showing what the vaccine schedule for our children does to the brains of baby macaque monkeys. You should read it before you argue vaccines cause no harm or autism. Here is a link for you:

    http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7020.pdf

  7. AWEtism Mom
    October 6, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Hi Shannon! I read your article and I must say, it appears that you cannot fully exonerate vaccines as cause of your son’s autism. You did not do the AAP recommended vaccine schedule at all! In your own words you wrote ”
    I started slowly, under the supervision of a pediatrician willing to listen to my concerns. My youngest child initially got only one shot at a time, only when she was healthy, and with a month between doses, because I wanted to see how she reacted to individual vaccines. She had no adverse reactions, so I began to allow vaccinations in small batches. I also resumed vaccinating my son — you know, the one with autism. Both kids remain fine, or at least no quirkier than they were before their shots.” Your vaccination of your daughter is not unlike what Dr. Robert Sears recommends in his Vaccine Book. Also, Jenny McCarthy says “One size does not fit all.” She often says she does not oppose vaccinations, just too many, too soon. I have a son with autism, I kept on vaccinating. I had another baby who was born during the time my son was diagnosed, I took her into the pediatrician’s for her two month old well baby (she was seven weeks old, and yes, she was a remarkably well baby too!) and I left there after she received EIGHT different strains of viruses. High fevers (105) raged and I watched as my once healthy little bundle of joy became chronically ill! She just turned three now and I am STILL working on the diarrhea that developed after I took her to that “well baby.” I wish I could have been like you! I wish I’d stopped vaccinating and then only gave a shot “here and there” gradually (as Dr. Sears recommends), then maybe I wouldn’t still be dealing with all her health issues. Does she have autism? She has PDD-NOS. Had I continued to vaccinate her I know she too would have full blown autism. It is not “one size fits all.” When and where on Earth would our children be exposed to eight different strains of diseases all at once? It is not going to happen, so why do we inundate our tiny babies with so many vaccines all at once? Its criminal!

  8. October 6, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Thanks for all the encouraging comments. Very appreciated!

    @Beth, Some children — rarely — cannot metabolize the ingredients in vaccinations. Very rarely. Again, not enough of a reason for parents to avoid getting their kids immunized.

    And I would caution readers that anyone who looks hard enough can find a lab willing to provide tests that prove whatever clients want proven — for a fee, of course. But you don’t usually have to go to France to be fleeced.

    Regarding the Macaque monkey research, readers should know that this is a widely ridiculed study with a control group of exactly three animals. Again, not a game-changer. More info:

    http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/07/in-name-of-science.html

    @Zoe and AWEtism mom — Leo received all his vaccinations as the AAP schedule recommended until age two, when we got derailed by antivaccination fearmongers as described above. We’re now back on the schedule, and if I was to have another child, I would go by the AAP schedule from the beginning. As for slower schedules, most pediatricians would rather their patients vaccinate slowly than not at all — so slower is not ideal, but it’s better than quitting altogether.

    AWEtism mom, I’m sorry to hear that your daughter has had chronic health problems — if you truly believe she has a vaccine injury (again, they are real but truly rare, the risk for healthy children is extremely, extremely low), then you should compile the kind of evidence we compiled for my son — pediatrician’s records, videos, etc.; review them with an unbiased party, and, if the evidence supports your theory, pursue a claim with the NVICP.

  9. October 6, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Shannon has already posted one link from my blog on those god-awful monkey studies. Here are more discussions of recent findings in vax-related studies:

    The Polish study looking at brain changes in rats: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-anti-vaxers-science-and-sticks-of.html

    The recent Pediatrics paper, finding not an iota of evidence linking thimerosal to autism: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/pediatrics-study-finds-no-link-between.html

    Another writeup of the “monkey study” before they changed everything around in it: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2008/07/autism-no-rats-will-be-harmed-but-keep.html

    A discussion of vaccine injury cases called out on Age of Autism:

    http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-little-knowledge-dangerous-thing.html

    A recent meta-analysis finding no link: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/05/adding-to-anti-wakefield-conspiracy.html

    A discussion of the people who spearheaded the anti-vax crusade: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/05/who-are-real-villains-here.html

    A discussion of the potential influence of environmental chemicals in the etiology of autism: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/02/autism-and-environmental-chemicals-call.html

    Indeed, I have blogged extensively on vaccines and science and autism:

    http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/search/label/vaccines

    My son has autism, and we vaccinated according to the full schedule, as we have done with our other two sons. He has never received a thimerosal-containing vaccine, and he exhibited signs of his autism well before receiving MMR. Correlation doesn’t even apply with him.

    Vaccines are medical interventions. There isn’t a single medical intervention in existence that doesn’t carry a risk. For every one, there are careful cost-benefit analyses required and, yea verily, performed before they are introduced for the common weal. People do unquestionably have adverse reactions to vaccines, just as they can to anesthesia, peanuts, antibiotics, aspirin, latex, adhesives for medical dressings, and the list continues…endlessly. Just as you take a considered risk whenever you put your child in a car, place a bandage on him or her, give them an analgesic, or sign the consent for anesthesia, you do so with vaccines. Simply because vaccines are like every other intervention and carry a risk for a very few doesn’t mean (a) they should be forgone altogether or (b) they cause autism. To argue that in the face of their overwhelming efficacy in the context of limited damage is irrational in the extreme. The huge weight of the evidence–and it is large and crosses multiple disciplines–indicates that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

  10. Beth B
    October 6, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Sorry, Shannon, but I will not visit the site of someone who calls herself “Daisy May Fatty Pants” and take the word of that person over the results of an actual medical study published in a peer reviewed journal, even if the study involves only three monkeys. Are you kidding me? When doctors who get money from the pharmaceutical companies (i.e. who have serious conflicts of interest), like Offit, keep stating that vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies cannot be done as they are unethical, and no studies are being done by industry or government to prove that giving so many vaccines simultaneously are actually safe for children (yet they are given to children in ever rising multiples), I have to say the lack of ethics lies with the doctors and researchers who refuse to do the studies. Mercury and aluminum have been proven in many studies (having nothing to do with autism) to cause brain damage. Autism is exactly that – brain damage. Sorry you cannot see the truth in that.

  11. October 6, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Beth,

    Yikes. You got so distracted by a “funny” name that you didn’t take the time to ascertain that the woman who writes that blog is professional scientist, with exactly the skills needed to debunk the monkey study as flawed? That is exactly the kind of superficial, haphazard thinking that allows the vaccine myths you write about to proliferate.

  12. October 6, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    Daisymayfattypants is not MY name, it was my sweet little now-deceased dog’s name, and I selected that back when I cared about anonymity. As Shannon notes, I am a scientist. I even have a PhD, postdoc experience, and papers. Here are some of them (I have 30+); I believe they may demonstrate some of my qualifications for addressing the effects of disruptions during developmental processes and toxins:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18001166

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17905137

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707034

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17483812

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16813932

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16504050

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16407038 (this is my favorite–and you’ll be delighted to know that it “takes on” Big Pharma)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106679

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11008698

    And so on…

    At any rate, I’m as qualified as the average parent to take on these studies and analyze their scientific worthiness.

  13. October 6, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Beth B:

    When doctors who get money from the pharmaceutical companies (i.e. who have serious conflicts of interest), like Offit, keep stating that vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies cannot be done as they are unethical,…I have to say the lack of ethics lies with the doctors and researchers who refuse to do the studies.

    You are incorrect, possibly because you are naive about the difficulties of study design and ethical issues involved in a vax’ed vs. unvax’ed study. Since you dismiss Paul Offitt’s expertise, how about:

    Peter A. Lipson, MD, who is an internist not a vaccinologist or an infectious disease specialist?
    http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2009/03/david_kirby_dangerous_unethica.php

    a study of “vaccinated vs. unvaccinated” kids. First of all, the study has essentially been done, in that we can compare our current statistics with pre-vaccination stats, and we can compare ourselves to countries with poor vaccination rates. Even more useful is the falling vaccine rate and rising disease rate in England, the U.S., and elsewhere, especially with regard to measles. Add that to the studies that show no causation or correlation between autism and vaccines, and it’s a done deal.

    More important that that, however, is the horribly unethical nature of the suggestion. A study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children is almost certain to be an ethical nightmare. If you intentionally randomize children to an unvaccinated group, it’s ethically akin to assigning them to a no-seat belt group. If you simply try to enroll groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated children, there are still ethical problems, but also technical problems with validity.

    Or how about David Gorski, MD, who is a breast cancer surgeon & researcher?

    In Human subjects protections and research ethics: Where the rubber hits the road for science-based medicine, Dr. Gorski discusses at length the general subject of the ethics of human subjects research. I suggest you read it to understand why the study you want cannot be done.

    In a later post, Dr. Gorski discusses The perils and pitfalls of doing a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study The post is long, because it needs to be long to be thorough. I’ll quote the ending

    In fact, I rather suspect that the smarter among the anti-vaccinationists know all the problems inherent in doing a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children. Certainly the government does, hence its reluctance to spend all sorts of money chasing a highly improbable hypothesis…. In reality, the “vaccinated versus unvaccinated” gambit is just that–a gambit. The leaders of the anti-vaccine movement probably know that doing a study with sufficient power and numbers to exclude even a modest risk of autism due to the current vaccine schedule is so expensive and impractical that it would probably never be done and that smaller studies that are feasible will have too little power to reassure those who believe that vaccines cause autism that vaccines are in fact safe. Why do it then? It keeps the troops fired up thinking that there is some huge conspiracy to prevent such a study because of the fear of its results or that the government just doesn’t care enough about autistic children to do such a study.

    On the other hand, antivaccinationists should be very careful what they ask for. They may just make enough of a pain of themselves to get it. True, getting the resources necessary to do a study the like of what Prometheus described intially would monopolize autism research funding for years, but the anti-vaccine movement doesn’t really care about that, because it’s always been all about the vaccines more than helping autistic children. Worse, if the government ever did spend the money on such an enormous study and it was resoundingly negative, it’s easy to predict that it would make no difference. As they have done before for other large studies, anti-vaccinationists would discount the results and cry bias. Still, if the government caves and decides to do such a study, it is up to us in the scientific community to make sure that it’s done by no one but the best epidemiologists, in other words, that it’s a proper study that correctly controls for confounders and can answer the question being asked, not the dubious study custom designed to have the maximal chance of a false positive result, which is of course what the anti-vaccine movement really wants.

    Dr. Gorski refers to Prometheus, a blogger who uses a pseudonym. However, he has been blogging long enough to reveal that he is a very highly-skilled researcher and academic in the biological sciences. I urge you to read very closely:

    Let’s Put on a Study (from 2008);

    When “Too Many, Too Soon” becomes “Too Few, Too Late”; (2010)

    They Did A Study! (2010)

    That is just the tip of the iceberg on the ethical and study-design issues involved in a vax’ed vs. unvax’ed study. I reference those blog posts, rather than the published papers, because they are accessible to lay readers.

  14. Rita
    October 6, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    I do not agree with you at all, and I highly recommend that every one read the book, “Age of Autism”…..should be required reading.
    My son received several vaccines in 1994, ran a fever and immeadiately regressed following. He was 3 years old and had developed speech already at that time and was potty trained.
    Some years later, I got a hold of the vaccine lot numbers, and plugged them into the VAERS data base. The vaccine lots were flagged, and “recalled” as other children had brain injury following receiving these “contaminated” lots of vacines. The several children who received those “contaminated” lots, all have been since diagnosed with in the ASD umbrella. I did not have this information until 2006. (The vaccine injury occured in 1994) I t was an isolated incident, and continued to vacinate him. ~ Today, he is 19 years old, and functions like a Kindergardner. There is no doubt in My mind that my son’s vaccines caused his brain injury, subsiquently re- named ASD.
    I CAN NOT RECOMMEND ENOUGH… THE BOOK, “AGE OF AUTISM”.

  15. Rita
    October 6, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    My 2 other son’s who are unvaccinated do not fall into the ASD category, and I would never choose to vaccinate any one again…and I am a Registered Nurse. I just want to be clear on that.

  16. October 6, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Rita, if you truly believe your child is vaccine injured, then you should follow the steps I outlined for AWEtism mom above.

    With regards to the Age of Autism book, it’s a rehash of already-discounted theories from 5+ years ago — but I’m sure it makes an excellent doorstop.

  17. Sara
    October 6, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Shannon, you must have missed when Wired magazine pointed out that “higher rates of non-vaccination often correspond with higher levels of education and wealth”. I’d say that most of us are quite capable of doing our own research and certainly don’t “go to celebrities” for our information.

    @ejwillingham “At any rate, I’m as qualified as the average parent to take on these studies and analyze their scientific worthiness.”

    Since it appears that you can read, I’d agree that you are. But no more qualified than the rest of us. Nor is your opinion any more valuable.

  18. October 6, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Sara…so, at the very least, we’re tied, right? And my opinion is, in fact, more valuable in a scientific context in that it has the weight of (a) someone who actually reviews papers for peer-reviewed journals (which, in addition to my ability to read, makes me a *scientific peer*) and (b) someone who has a PhD in developmental biology, i.e., specific scientific training to the terminal degree and beyond. You’re welcome to ignore it. It simply puts me in excellent scientific company if you choose to do so.

    Rita, I believe that one of the icons over at AoA, Kim Stagliano, didn’t vaccinate her third child, and her third child does have autism, correct? My other sons who are vaccinated are not autistic. Anecdote, however, does not add up to data, so these anecdotes don’t matter much either way.

  19. October 6, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    What would be great here, by the way, is if comments could focus on the science involved, rather than the people making the comments. Much of what I’ve read in these comments disagreeing with Shannon’s post have focused on Shannon herself or my poor choice in noms d’ blog and reading ability, rather than the science. I know it’s tough to counter the ever-growing mountain of science failing to demonstrate a vaccine-autism link. If you’re finding that troublesome to do, that alone should be a sign.

  20. Sara
    October 6, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    You are advising the parent of a 19 year old vaccine injured child pursue a claim with the NVICP, which has a 3 year statute of limitation? That makes about as much sense as your post.

  21. October 6, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Dear Rita,
    I am sorry that your son has PDD. Having a special-needs child is more difficult than having a more typical child.

    While I am replying to Rita, other readers should be aware of what the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) really is.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

    VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

    “Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

    A report to VAERS generally does not provide sufficient basis for concluding that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine receipt. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

    In other words, anybody can add anything to the VAERS database without verification. In 2005, Jim Laidler MD entered a claim that a routine influenza vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk. The following year, Kev Leitch verified Dr. Laidler’s claim.

    Rita, you have left many similar comments at other pro-vaccine posts. The gist of your story is that you claim your son received a vaccine in 1994 that was contaminated and recalled. You also claim that particular lot caused brain injury to several other children. However, you don’t provide evidence of your claims of the “hot lot” and the recall other than your assertion. I know you believe your assertions, but until you provide evidence that the lots were recalled and that other children were injured, they are just your assertions.

  22. Kelly
    October 6, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Since this is America and everyone is entitled to their opinion here is mine. Vaccines can cause autism for some children mine included. Some children can detox the mercury and others cant. I dont know why this is hard for some people to understand. Our Son has vaccine induced autism and I know this because we have tested urine,Hair,blood and poo. Three Dr’s have told us this and we have our Son’s life on video. We dont need to be against each other. One size does not fit all. Please understand that just because your child was born with Autism does not mean that mine was also. Vaccines kill and disable people every day.

  23. October 6, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Kelly, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But statements like “vaccines kill and disable people every day” is misinformed fearmongering, and are part of the reason why my daughter came home from school with a pertussis exposure notice yesterday.

    No credible evidence backs up your statements on mercury, autism, & vaccines, no matter how many doctors of questionable practice (DAN! doctors, I’m guessing?) have happily taken large sums of money from you to tell you otherwise.

    If you really believe in community, try focusing on big-picture issues that affect all of our families — start a special ed PTA, parent support group, meals for families of kids with autism, babysitting co-op, parents’ night out. Something that helps rather than endangers our children.

  24. October 6, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    Dear Kelly,
    Yes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

    Vaccines kill and disable people every day.

    Really? That’s pretty easy to check. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) publishes its data at http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/.

    There have been a total of 2,529 compensated claims since NVICP started in 1988. Unfortunately deaths are aggregated with other outcomes. How many per day? Let’s do a rough calculation. 2010-1988=22. 22*365=8030. 2529/8030=0.315.

    So 0.315 adverse outcomes per day doesn’t really support your assertion, does it?

    The other thing the tables don’t tell us is the exposure — the total number of vaccinations given. Remember that older children and adults get vaccines too. So let’s do a little bit more quick and dirty calculation. Since 1988 (the start of the NVICP), there 89,000,000 live births in the US. For the sake of argument, let’s imagine that each of those births got all the vaccinations now recommended for children up to 18 months, which is now about 25 inoculations (shots & oral vaccines) for 14 diseases. Let’s also imagine that every single one of the 2,529 compensated claims was for vaccine injuries to children (and they are not, but play along here).

    89,000,000 *25 inoculations = 2,225,000,000 exposures to vaccines.

    2529/2,225,000,000 = 0.000001136 adverse reactions per dose.

    Or about one adverse reactions to every million exposures.

    “Compensated” means that the claims were examined and found to be reasonable. Please note that the NVICP standard of proof is significantly lower than a conventional court, as Dr. Offitt explains</a.

    If, at a trial in a special court, a preponderance of scientific evidence suggested that a vaccine caused one of these problems, a family would be compensated quickly, generously and fairly. Because no one could sue vaccine makers without going through this special court, the number of lawsuits against vaccine makers fell drastically.

    The system worked fine until a few years ago, when vaccine court judges turned their back on science by dropping preponderance of evidence as a standard. Now, petitioners need merely propose a biologically plausible mechanism by which a vaccine might cause harm — even if their explanation contradicts published studies. In 2006, for example, Dorothy Werderitsh claimed in the vaccine court that a hepatitis B vaccine had triggered an autoimmune response in her brain that led to multiple sclerosis. Two large studies had clearly shown that hepatitis B vaccine could neither cause nor exacerbate multiple sclerosis, but the court ruled in favor of Ms. Werderitsh, elevating a hypothesis above epidemiological evidence.

  25. Sara
    October 6, 2010 at 7:21 pm

    @ ejwillingham

    hmmm… yeah, just stick with “we’re tied”. Those who find it necessary to boast about their credentials instead of allowing their commentary to speak for itself are just begging for skepticism.

    So we should focus our comments on the “science involved” because Shannon has enticed us all with this scientifically stimulating piece? Good one.

    Ah, but anecdote DOES add up to evidence, which SHOULD invite scientific inquiry.

    Epidemiology is a soft science that is readily open to abuse – and error. Any conclusion obtained this way deserves critical examination and critique, of which your “ever-growing mountain” has indeed gotten.

    Fortunately, the parochial viewpoints shared by yourself and Shannon are a dying breed. You will slowly but surely be outnumbered. And then we shall destroy you from within! Sorry, I kid. But only slightly, right Shannon?

    There are plenty of others who find pleasure in debating the dense. Alas, I am not one of them. I’d much rather be playing with my amazing kids. Toodaloo!

  26. Kelly
    October 6, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    It isnt fearmongering at all, it is the truth. Look it up. Go to the VEARS website and read all of the adverse reactions.

  27. October 6, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    It’s only boasting if you find it intimidating. Emily was stating her qualifications.

    And I am finding no pleasure in your revealing how entrenched misinformation mindsets can be, not at all. But you are welcome to storm off, since intelligent readers are not going to take your statements seriously. No kidding there.

  28. October 6, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    Ah, but anecdote DOES add up to evidence, which SHOULD invite scientific inquiry.

    And it has. Again and again. Let’s take the most recent addressing the risk of thimerosal:
    Pediatrics. 2010 Oct;126(4):656-64. Epub 2010 Sep 13.
    Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism.

    Price CS, Thompson WW, Goodson B, Weintraub ES, Croen LA, Hinrichsen VL, Marcy M, Robertson A, Eriksen E, Lewis E, Bernal P, Shay D, Davis RL, Destefano F.
    You can download the whole thing yourself here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/peds.2010-0309v1

    Or this study, which addresses the “too many, too soon” meme:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/peds.2009-2489v1.

    Published online May 24, 2010
    PEDIATRICS (doi:10.1542/peds.2009-2489)

    On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes
    Michael J. Smith, MD, MSCE, Charles R. Woods, MD, MS

    Or this ongoing project
    http://www8.nationalacademies.org/cp/projectview.aspx?key=49055

    Project Scope
    The committee will review the epidemiological, clinical, and biological evidence regarding adverse health events associated with specific vaccines covered by the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The vaccines to be reviewed are varicella zoster vaccine, influenza vaccines, hepatitis B vaccine, and human papillomavirus vaccine. Other vaccines could be added if additional funding is secured. The committee will author a consensus report with conclusions on the evidence bearing on causality and the evidence regarding the biological mechanisms that underlie specific theories for how a specific vaccine is related to a specific adverse event.

    I’m not sure what Sara is trying to say here:

    Epidemiology is a soft science that is readily open to abuse – and error. Any conclusion obtained this way deserves critical examination and critique, of which your “ever-growing mountain” has indeed gotten

    I must say I disagree that “epidemiology is a soft science”. It’s one of the more rigorous of the sciences, relying as it does on experimental, empirical, and quantifiable data.

    Any science is open to error. One of the nifty things about science is that it tends to be self-correcting — when a hypothesis is tested & found wanting, responsible people change their minds.

    What would change my mind about vaccine exposure being causal in vaccines? Evidence as rigorous, as strong, as the many 10s of studies that have demonstrated again and again that (a) thimerosal isn’t implicated in autism (b) measles vaccine isn’t implicated in autism (c) the MMR combination vaccine isn’t implicated in autism.

    What would cause me to change my mind, to come to believe that the current AAP recommended vaccine schedule is more dangerous than the risk of the diseases protected against? Strong evidence, not just handwringing and stories about it being “too many, too soon.”

  29. October 6, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Kelly, the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) is explained in a comment which is still in moderation. While we are waiting for it to come through:

    VAERS is an unreliable source for data on the reality of adverse reactions. It’s a passive system — anyone can put in a report. Very few of the reports are validated at all. Some of the reports are accurate, some aren’t.

  30. Sara
    October 6, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    Aw, come one now Shannon. I didn’t storm off. There was a skip in my step and a tune in my head.

    When you are attempting to insult me, could you at least use proper grammar? “Misinformation” is not an adjective. I’ll give you an A for effort, though.

    Let me assure you that I do not find Emily’s “qualifications” to be intimidating. I simply find them to be marginal.

    It is quite interesting however, that you found it necessary to call in your little pet scientist for back-up in defending this nonsense.

  31. October 6, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    I guess that plea to avoid personal commentary went unheeded. Trolls are so dull.

    Epidemiology is the not the only field to have addressed these issues. I await the critiques of the mountain.

    The plural of anecdotes is not “data.” It’s still only anecdotes, as there is no method to their collection or consideration. At best, they might serve as a list of case studies. Still not “data.”

  32. Parent
    October 6, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I kinda admire this mother. Some parents with autistic children take the childs and their own life. This one is doing so by the vaccines, kinda smart cause then if God Forbid the child dies she can blame the vaccine and get paid for her loss

  33. October 7, 2010 at 1:50 am

    No links this time, as I don’t want this comment to be held up in moderation

    Sara wrote

    Fortunately, the parochial viewpoints shared by yourself [EJW] and Shannon are a dying breed. You will slowly but surely be outnumbered.

    “Parochial viewpoints”? I suppose you mean the views that (a) vaccines are overall, a net public health good; and (b) vaccines, for any reason, are NOT causal in autism.

    How can we test those assertions?

    Well, for (a) we would have to look at vaccine uptake rates on for children born in the last three years. Are they going up or down? That’s hard to come by, as most states capture vaccine uptake at only at school entry. This year’s kindergartners were born (more or less) in 2005. Looking at California’s “2009 Immunization Status Of Kindergarten Students, California”, it appears that most schools have a greater that 85% vaccine uptake, and very few schools have Personal Belief Exemptions (PBE) of greater than 5%..

    (Brief digression: I looked at the data for my county. The Las Lomitas district has 13 children (7%) with a PBE, while right next door & almost demographically-indistinguishable the Menlo Park district has 3 children (1.5%) with a PBE. I think it would make a great public health master’s or PhD dissertation to suss out why the variation in PBEs for matched districts.)

    I’m not quite sure how to test (b). Another way of stating (b) is: “What percentage of parents act on the belief that vaccines (for any reason), are causal in autism. I suppose one way to test that assertion would be the number of parents, since 2008 or so (newly-diagnosed children) entering into protocols that, so to speak, attempt to reverse “vaccine-caused autism”.

    Oh, darn. To the best of my ability to ascertain, none of the physicians or chiropractors or dentists or registered nurses who participate in the “Defeat Autism Now!” (DAN!) publish intake records. Or anything.

    I’d say that most of us are quite capable of doing our own research

    What research is that, Sara? What papers have you read? Can you share with us your reservations about the methods, the populations, or the outcomes published?

    If you cannot discuss your “own research”, why not?

    =====
    Disclosures:
    I spend a couple of hours a week in real life with Shannon Rosa, and we are co-editors with Emily Willingham (who I have never met, except electronically and over the phone) at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism (TPGA). To date, TPGA has required investment rather than returning income to me. I predict the remuneration for the time I have spend in TPGA will be on the order of $0.00015/hour.

    I have an investment portfolio. I probably have Big Pharma investments, both as individual stocks and units within mutual funds.

  34. October 7, 2010 at 8:20 am

    A reminder for readers: There is no link between autism & vaccines. Definitively. Despite misinformation spread by sincere but misguided individuals.

    I use the word “misinformation” because the antivaccinationist commenters honestly believe what they are writing (as opposed to “disinformation,” which is willful). We have to be smart enough to think past strong beliefs and compelling anecdotes. Our children’s health is at stake, a matter most parents can’t fully comprehend because of the success of the vaccination program — we’ve never experienced these diseases ourselves, a privileged position that is starting to erode due to the real-world effects of antivaccination fears:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/us/12bcvaccines.html

    If it is repugnant to see commenters make false claims such as “Vaccines kill and disable people every day,” it is horrifying to see the real-world results: antivaccination fearmongering has underpinned the current California whooping cough epidemic, which HAS killed several children:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/20/california-whooping-cough_0_n_731281.html

    I have faith in your intelligence, readers. Don’t let me down.

  35. Rita
    October 7, 2010 at 9:08 am

    This is nothing more than a Paid Pharma Blog….Sorry. I have analyzed the data and the comments….and shame on you.
    THIS IS NOT A STORY OF A PERSON WHO WANTS THE FULL VACCINE SCHEDULE AND IS SO TRUSTWORTHY. THIS IS A WAY TO TRY TO CONVINCE OTHERS THAT AUTISM MOM’S VACCINATE. SOME DO, MOST DO NOT….AND WHY? BECAUSE A LOT OF THE SUDDEN ONSET OF REGRESSION IS DIRECTLY FOLLOWED BY A VACCINE.
    I STILL HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE “AGE OF AUTISM ” BOOK. OBVIOUSLY THE READER ABOVE MAKING THE HALF ASS ATTEMPT AT A CRITIQUE….DIDNT READ IT.
    GO AWAY PHARMA SHILLS AND PAID BLOGGERS! YOUR ATTEMPTS TO PULL THE WOOL OVER MY EYES, HAS GONE AWRYE.

  36. October 7, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Rita, if you have information demonstrating that most autism moms do not vaccinate, how can it be that autism is then linked to vaccines?

    At least one study has indicated that what was perceived as regression was in fact a continuum of signs that had manifested before the parents determined the regression had begun.

    I’ve noted it elsewhere, but even with strictly genetic disorders, such as tuberous sclerosis, development can appear to be completely typical until a certain developmental period, at which point the manifestations of the disorder become clear. That doesn’t mean that the disorder was not present; it means rather that some deficits associated with it won’t show up until the typical behaviors with which they are associated are expected to appear…or persist. Rett Syndrome is another example of this, in which a child can seem to be completely typically developing to the inexpert eye until specific developmental windows trigger manifestation of signs.

    The assertions in the Age of Autism book, on their Website, and elsewhere have been addressed in various venues and debunked quite thoroughly.

    Your post above is representative of a few things that I see when passion overcomes reason: Anyone on the “opposition” side is with paid pharma somehow; they have not bothered to think for themselves; they don’t know the science, and you do; somehow, we are “paid bloggers” (I’ve never made a cent off of blogging and don’t use advertising on my blogs); and we’re purposely trying to cause people harm for…motives that remain mysterious.

    Here’s the reality–I can’t speak for Shannon or Liz or Shot of Prevention, but here’s why I do what I do: My goal is to help people and to enhance understanding and information accuracy (and yes, “information” and “misinformation” both qualify as adjectives). My goal is to be useful and, in this age of rising pertussis rates and infant deaths and worldwide losses that number in the millions of children to preventable disease, to possibly do some little part in preventing these deaths. I do not work for Big Pharma and never have. I do not get paid for what I do. I speak from the perspective of wanting to help and inform, not to fight, not to be the “winner,” not to be angry…simply to be of use while causing as little harm as possible. Kind of like a vaccine.

  37. October 7, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    This is a volunteer effort. I do get paid for writing at BlogHer, though — which is a specifically agenda-free women’s network.

  38. October 7, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Even if it were true that vaccines caused autism, I’d rather have an autistic, vaccinated kid than a dead one.

    I used to be an anti-vax. Tried their treatments and their cures. He got worse. Go figure. We’re now catching up on his vaccines and he is improving everyday. And his brother, who had no vaccinations initially ended up in the hospital with a virus that could have been prevented by a vaccine at FIVE WEEKS. Spinal taps, you name it. He nearly died. He’s fine now, a thriving fourth grader. And he now has all vaccines.

    So, vaccines for me, thanks.

  39. Tom
    October 7, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    I’ve said this before, antivaxers, and I’ll say it again: When you hold onto ideas that have been largely discredited, you make it impossible to believe any credible ideas you might have.

    Note the difference here: the pro-vax folks cite science, the antivax folks type in all caps and make baseless accusations. It seems literally impossible for antivaxers to believe that someone could look at the evidence and come away with different conclusions than they’ve reached.

    Antivaxers, you’ve lost. You’ve lost the argument. Last year even Reader’s Digest pronounced the vaccines –> autism argument to be hooey. When you’ve lost Reader’s Digest, you’ve lost Middle America.

    Consider the difference in media response to Blaxill and Olmstead’s latest book and David Kirby’s book from a few years back. Kirby’s got reviews in many major venues, including the NY Times. The idea was new and sounded — possibly — credible back then. Now? Not so much. Have ANY major media outlets reviewed The Age of Autism?

    Honestly . . . to the outside observer, you guys look unhinged. You really seem to have no awareness as to how you come across to anyone outside of the antivax community.

    Full disclosure: I have a son on the autism spectrum, and there was a time that I was every bit as antivax as Jenny McCarthy. But I became increasingly unable to ignore the mountains of evidence against the vaccine causation theory.

    The world is in the process of moving past you, antivaxers. You keep promising yourselves victory and assuring yourselves that, in fact, it’s the pro-vaxers who are in retreat. In the real world, nothing could be further from the truth.

  40. October 7, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Shannon and Emily, I commend you for your ability to stay polite, fact-focused, and classy in the face of so many unnecessarily rude, insulting, and condescending comments. You are awesome, don’t stop speaking out.

    ~ Jules, RN

  41. October 7, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    Another “autism mom” for vaccines here. My story is similar to Shannon’s. While I have no evidence that vaccines caused my son’s autism, I have been directly harmed by anti-vax propaganda. Before I actually read any of the direct evidence regarding vaccines and autism, I heard enough anti-vax hysteria to be wary of vaccination, and eschewed flu vaccination during my second pregnancy because of “the mercury.” Got the flu in my second trimester, developed complications, and almost died, taking my unborn daughter with me. During the course of my illness, I had to make some hard decisions regarding treatments that posed a demonstrable risk to my baby, and learned a little something about evaluating real risks.

    As a result of that experience, I took a serious interest in the vaccine-causes-autism hypothesis, and discovered that there’s “no there there.”

    I don’t know what caused my son’s autism, but I’m pretty confident it wasn’t vaccines, which are one of the few potential environmental triggers that has been fairly extensively studied. I do know, however, that anti-vaccinationist propaganda causes real harm.

  42. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    I have a very severely vaccine damaged son that suffers tremendously because of the absolute incompetence of those responsible for vaccine
    so called safety.
    (What a cruel joke, it does not exist! Today, and I am not sure if it ever did)
    (Several Vaccines given on one day at one setting) Example, of children being over vaccinated with Toxic levels of Mercury in the 90′s ; A child playing the dangerous game of CDC AAP vaccine catch up, that child could get up to 9 vaccines on one day at one setting 7 of which contained the mercury. That in Parts Per Billion is 32,500 (PPB) at one setting on one day. Now keep this in mind, 200 PPB is what the EPA considers as liquid hazardous waste. The CDC aways says this was a small amount of Mercury nothing to worry about, when you see the emails put out by the CDC and the FDA you will know why they are saying that. Here is a hint of what they were trying to hide, that they hoped no one would ever find out. That they had allowed 160 times the Mercury, than what the EPA considers as liquid hazardous waste to go into our children.

  43. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    Do your home work parents! and you will find emails like these. That prove their incompetence.

    Obtained through the Freedom of Information Act; This is information! Not misinformation as the CDC is guilty of, as you will read later on in this post in several parts.

    These Emails, were from the key boards of the FDA and the CDC .

    We are talking about (Thimerosal) here in this context, it is a preservative
    that is 50% Mercury by weight that was and is still used in children’s and adult vaccines and flu Vaccines.

    The Damning emails

    “were afraid the public will percieve us asleep at the switch for decades for allowing this dangerous compound to remain in the vaccines”

    “This was not rocket science, this was ninth grade math” You see parents in this email,he was referring to the fact that those in charge of vaccine safety. Could not even do the simple math,that it would have taken to protect our children from the accumlative Bolus doses given of Mercury adding up to Mercury poisoning and neurological damage.

    This is why he was showing concern, and why he said that. You see parents it is on the Manufacturer Safety Data Sheet, that their product (Thimerosal) it is accumlative in the body. And also it targets the organs of the body
    in particular the brain and the lining around the brain.

    On the same MSDS, it says to never mix Thimerosal with Aluminum.
    That is listed under reactivity data, in case you parents go looking. Reason is, that the will two react violently togather when mixed. Guess what is in children’s vaccines as a catalyst, ( Aluminum ) The Mercury causes the Aluminum to oxidize with the production of heat. Later in this post you will read what happened to my sons leg,and how it was so hot at the injection site it would burn you. The mercury, causes the Aluminum to oxidize with
    the production of heat.

    Next on the MSDS of ( Thimerosal ) is that pregnant women are never ever supposed to be exposed to ( Thimerosal ) for it can cross the placenta and go into the baby and cause mild to severe mental retardation. So one should be asking, why is the Dir. of the CDC so gung ho or desperate to recommend that pregnant women get a flu vacc. You see the myth that this is friendlier gental kind of Mercury as a spokes person Dr. Cochi from the CDC once said, is not backed by any credibile studies. In fact when the CDC hired a scientist to claim it cleared the blood in 3 to 7 days this is the reply of another NIH CDC paid researcher reflecting his findings.

    “When the CDC Pichichero report said it’s better than we thought, it clears the blood quicker 3 to 7 days their own NIH paid for researcher came back to haunt them.

    Thomas Burbacher said Not so fast, says Thomsas Brubacher, M.D., a scientist who studies the biological effects of ethyl mercury on primates. “Just because it came out of the blood doesn’t mean it is excreted from the body. It could have gone to the brain. In primates, you actually get more mercury in the brain after exposure to ethyl mercury than with methyl mercury – it has an easier time crossing the blood brain barrier.”

    Parents did you catch that, he said; Thimerosal Mercury AKA as Vaccineal Mercury crosses the Blood Brain Barrier easier than does the Fish Mercury

    So why is it recommended to not eat fish because of Mercury, but do go down and get two flu shots containing Thimerosal a kind of Mercury that
    crosses the BBB easier than the Fish Mercury ???????????????

    Also Thimerosal turns into inorganic mercury by two and a half times
    that of the fish mercury, and it is the most damaging to the mitochondria depleating the glutathione. Glutathione is needed for the ability of heavy metal excreation.
    Parents lets examine the two researchers, and see which ones findings is more likely and in line with the Manufacturer Safety Data Sheets words concerning the product (Thimerosal) it is accumlative in the body. And also it targets the organs of the body, in particular the brain and the lining around the brain. It appears the CDC’s researcher Pichichero was wrong in his asertion that just because it had cleared the blood it was excreteed out of the body. You see parents, that is the oppisite of it’s nature according to the people who made it, Again! it is accumlative in the body,and it targets the organs of the body. In particular the brain and the lining around the brain.
    You will quickly learn by researching on your own that those in vaccine safety do not now and have never, listen to the many warnings that they have gotten over the years. While our children pays the ultamate price
    for their world class incompatence.

    So as we can see, by what the manufacturer says about their own product he had a good reason to be concerned enough to write that email.

    This next email is from the CDC it states” How could the FDA approve a
    preseritive with out knowing how much mercury it contains” he then says
    “what else is lurking that we know nothing about”

    And this one, I like this one it proves they knew or suspected there was a risk.
    email “and it’s no longer going to wash, that theres no evidence of a risk”

    FYI parents it was removed from dog vaccines in 1990 for concern it was causing neurological damage in dogs,it remaind in children’s vaccines till
    some say 2002 others 2004 with a 2 yr beyond that date of expiration.
    Our Dogs are treated better with more concern and care considering vaccines than our American children. That is because Dogs are not a government guarenteed cash cow to the Vaccine Manufacturers like our children are.

  44. October 7, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    I always find it interesting to watch these threads unravel… eventually the anti-vax people resort to name calling and ALL CAPS..it happened so quickly here.
    As someone with an child with autism who was never against vaccination, or science for that matter, I find it very hard to understand the anti-vax point of view, especially in the light of increasing piles of science which tells us that vaccines are not the smoking gun. My guess is that it must feel scary to think you have found a reason, or a cause for something and have that pulled away from you, however gently and slowly; it is clear some people are clinging to shreds. And without something to blame, it puts the anti-vax parent back to the beginning when they felt unsure and fearful.

    My hope for the future is that more people can move their anti-vax passions towards helping each other and their communities, as Shannon suggested above.

    Thank you again Shannon for putting yourself in the cross hairs.

  45. isles
    October 7, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    In addition to encouraging parents to stop vaccinating their autistic children and not vaccinate their subsequent siblings at all, leaving them vulnerable to disease for no good reason, autism/vaccine campaigners do a more insidious kind of harm: The breath they waste yelling about vaccines could be used yelling about the need for inclusive programs, accessible facilities, and societal acceptance of neurodiverse kids and grownups. Right now it seems all they care about is getting revenge on the imaginary evildoers who made their kids the way they are. But autism is so much more than that, and autistics deserve better.

  46. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    A little bit about my sons adverse reaction to his vaccines.

    At the injection site, a knot forms the size of a mans fist so hot it
    could burn you to touch it. The next day three mini seizures AKA
    encephalopathys. A normal child changes over night, his speech is
    slurring within days. Within weeks he starts losing speech,within months
    his speech down to 2, Sometimes 3 words. He starts chewing and sniffing like a rat ( DX with PICA ) foods he once ate he would never touch again.
    I assume because of the hyper sense of smell, including cake and ice cream Milk in fact he was down to 2 items from a normal child’s appetite eating everything. He starts hand flapping and spinning in circles,and screaming all the time ;

    Another child Gone! Taken by vaccines.

  47. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    And I assure you, I have done my home work. The CDC has no studies left
    the NIH verified that, and the CDC Dir. before she went to work for Merck
    when ask about the findings of the panel from the NIEHS that the large population based studies done in the Vaccine Safety Data Base were
    en-effect useless the Dir. said CDC concurs . Below is the story on that.

    The house appropriations committee asked the NIH to look at the science that the CDC says they have on vaccine and Autism, the NIH charged the NIEHS to look at the large population based studies in the VSD. Their findings were all the large populace studies were in effect useless, except the Denmark studies. They they were found to be worse than useless.

    (if that is even possible).

    Their words were “as bad as the the large population based studies done
    in the VSD were, they were an improvement over the other two the two Denmark studies.

    The committee asked for a response to the allegation that their flagship studies were useless, on vaccines and Autism. The Dir. of the CDC said; ” CDC concurs ” what she said afterwards is shocking, after admitting the science on vaccines and Autism is en effect useless that the CDC has. The Dir. Dr.Julie Gerberding said ;

    “but if you do give us more time we will do good quality studies” that is total admission they had nothing left. So how did the Vaccine compensation
    program rule against the parents if they had nothing left ????????

    She the Dir. of the CDC also said this; “and any further use of the VSD looking at Autism and vaccines environmental would be misleading”

    This is quite a reversal of her stance for 6 yr’s, as the Dir. of the CDC

    In fact the Dir. of the CDC had maintained for the 6 years that she was in office, that the VSD large population studies done in the VSD were of very good quality and sound design and robust. But as you can see she has been spreading misinformation for 6 years and misleading the nation by lying to the American public Congress and the Senate.

  48. MC
    October 7, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    Hey Shannon–

    my kid is autistic and fully vaccinated. Why? Pretty simple math, really. Protects against disease and doesn’t cause autism.

    Yes, I’ve read the research. I know all about Burbacher’s monkeys, glutathione, the difference between ethyl, methyl and inorganic mercury–all the science that gets thrown around like a smoke screen.

    I also know that it doesn’t add up to autism. I also know that many studies have been done showing there isn’t a link.

    Shanon, I had a wonderful morning this week with Liz. She’s amazing with little guys.

  49. October 7, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Joe, you have been telling this story since (at least) 2008..

    In addition to the misinformation you were spreading then and today, you were talking about your child as subhuman then, just as you are today.

  50. October 7, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    Just for the record, thimerosal was present in very few vaccines and now is found only in multidose vials of flu vax. Children rarely receive it in a vaccine.

    The FDA provides a table that shows the current and past thimerosal content of vaccines here:

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

    Also, a large group of researchers from a broad spectrum of organizations just completed a study of thimerosal and autism, working with a cohort of 1000 children who received vaccines that contained thimerosal (so before 2000). The CDC was a main contributor to the study and provide this writeup of it here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/QA_Pediatrics-thimerosal-autism.html

    The study itself is here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/QA_Pediatrics-thimerosal-autism.html

    I did an analysis of it here: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/pediatrics-study-finds-no-link-between.html

    Joe, I am sorry for what happened to your son. I hope you filed with the VICP. I’ve tried to read what you’ve posted, but it’s disconnected and difficult to follow. Thus, I’ve supplied the information about thimerosal, above.

    The antivaccine movement is a confusing one because on the one hand, the culprit is supposed to be MMR as the causative agent in autism, but it’s never contained thimerosal, while on the other hand, it’s supposed to be thimerosal, which was in very few vaccines in the first place–never in MMR–and now is in multidose vials of flu vax and has been otherwise removed for almost a decade. Yet…children are still born every day with autism. It really is time to look elsewhere and follow realistic routes of scientific exploration for any environmental agents that might contribute, and…while we’re at it…the best therapies and interventions that will help ameliorate the negative aspects of it.

  51. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    Next you will learn how the IOM was strong armed into doing the will of the CDC. The IOM had ruled in 2001 that the Vaccines causing Autism findings
    was biologically plausible. The CDC knew the next step could be causation, and they were in trouble. They the CDC asked the IOM to reevaluate the
    2001 findings. What happened next is where the corruption is born and
    is absolutely blatantly evident, that is if you have a conscience and a moral compass.

    Another email is fired off from the CDC’s vaccine div., it says the IOM meeting is within weeks. And we have searched frantically and cannot find anything here, we are going to have to go else where and get us a study.
    They chose Poul Thorsen from Denmark, while the parents are waiting on pins and needles for good research to come out of CDC research, they told him:
    we are only interested in what will exonerate the CDC vaccines Thimerosal.

    The truth is not on their radar, for they know the truth is that they poisoned the children by accident. And when in the valley of decision, whether to tell the truth or lie to the public they chose to lie.

    It was just found out that Poul is known in his country by people who know him as a “Stein bagger” Definition is a Danish Financial Fraud; We have learned this just recently, that the researcher has allegedly committed forgery to obtain all most 2 million dollars of CDC Autism research funds. The CDC has known for over a year and they were hiding it and him, while the Danish authority’s were looking for him over there the CDC had him at work over here on the DSMV in fact he was going to be the head person in charge of the work on the DSMV I guess it’s kind of hard to press charges against someone you have committed fraud with. We also have learned that now he cannot be found anywhere,two university’s with questionable ethics removed his name from their staff because of the Denmark scandal.

    It was heart breaking to find out that the researcher was throwing 3 parties
    a year, very elaborate parties. And renting Castles for his meetings with the children’s research money, he was also reported as paying absorbent high salaries higher than any other employer to those hand picked to massage the data to give the CDC the out comes ( fraud ) they had ask for.

    Just what did they the CDC expect from a man that is known as a Danish financial fraud? Integrity

    Now getting back to the CDC ordering the IOM to do their dirty work, the
    CDC said to the committee, pay little attention to the Biological evidence
    and put all their confidence in the large population studies. Oh! the ones discredited by the NIEHS, and the Fraud done by a Stein Bagger AKA
    A Danish Financial Fraud on Thimerosal.

    So this is what the CDC told the IOM to put all their confidence in,studies that were deemed en-effect useless by the NIEHS of the NIH Oh! lets not forget the Denmark studies, the IOM also used them to declare that the vaccines do not cause Autism. The NIEHS of the NIH found the Denmark studies worse than useless.

    So now we have, useless and worse than useless that the IOM used to declare vaccines safe,so it seems that we are back to square one, no! remember in 2001 02 the IOM ruled it was biologically plausible that vaccines were causing Autism. I assume someone that is known as the prestigious IOM had the evidence proving the biological plausibility of the Vaccines and components causing autism.
    Worse than this, is that the Special masters knew that the large population based studies and the Denmark studies were debunked by the NIEHS of the NIH. When they so proudly quoted, that the large population studies and the Denmark studies were the science that they used to determine that the science was so overwhelming against the parents. That they had no choice but to rule,against the parents. WHAT SCIENCE IS HE REFERRING TO, the head of the NIEHS panel that was ordered to look at the science the CDC had said;

    “That leaves the CDC with very little to go on in terms that vaccines and Autism are not connected in anyway”.

    And very little, is what you are basing your belief on the safety of vaccines.

    An up date on the Dir. of the CDC that mislead the American public, she went to work one week passed her cool off period of one year at Merck the company that had a hit list on Dr’s that spoke against their products.
    In Australia the Co. Merck is defending it self from emails of a hit list it
    made on Dr’s they would discredit, but what they said next is the shocker
    others they would have to seek them out and destroy them where they live.
    I guess that is left for one to interpret, how far they would go. They also said they would interfere with academia chairs AKA buying of university’s
    and professors. BTW FYI Merck makes the MMR.

    Oh! I left this out, the CDC saying to the IOM committee “The Agency
    (speaking of the CDC vaccine Commission ) wants you to declare these are safe on a population basis. She later states, “what Walt wants Walt generally gets” she was speaking of Walter A. Orenstein, M.D. Director National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control ( CDC )

    Did anybody hear any science, in that order to find that these things are safe on a population basis.

    Parents, this is what they have on Vaccine Safety. A big fat nothing

    Please learn from our mistake of trusting the health agencies,Vaccination
    in my research findings, is at best a one sided game of Russian Roulette.

    If you will be honest with your self concerning this issue,you will have to agree I just proved how corrupt that the Vaccine program has become in one long post.

    I left you wondering, is the IOM just as corrupt as the health agencies trying to get them to do their will, that answer is found in their 2004 ruling.
    It was that the Vaccine preservative Thimerosal and the MMR in general do not cause Autism. That sounds good for the vaccine pushers and the CDC,
    as the brave Dr. Burbacher once said not so fast. Someone that was in attendance at the IOM meeting, leaked the minutes of the meeting. In it
    it was revealed by what they were saying, that they were willing to lie to protect the vaccine program and that is what they did.

    THIS WAS TAKEN FROM THE ACTUAL IOM MEETING MINUTES.

    EXCERPT # 1
    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”
    Parents if they had found no causation with a good conscience and good scientific studies then explain how could they be caught in a trap,and why do they have to work their way out of something they are not in?

    Here’s another little jewel of CDC IOM deceit;

    When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

    The IOM stated “no comment” to byronchild about the leaked transcript
    or its use in the pending civil court case.

    This is the proof the CDC ordered the IOM to declare that these things are safe on a population basis, this is from the minutes

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    It is later stated that what walt wants walt generally gets, she was speaking
    of Walter A. Orenstein, M.D. Director National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control ( CDC ) Again where is the science in ordering someone to declare vaccines safe?????

    It was recently stated by the CDC the vaccine schedule has always been flexible this was stated after the question was asked could we be damaging our children with to many vaccines at one time.
    Seems here they are caught in another lie, read down below
    just how flexible they really were

    Dr. Stratton: “We said this before you got here, and I think we said
    this
    yesterday, the point of no return, the line we will not cross in public
    policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We could say it is
    time
    to revisit this but we will never recommend that level. Even
    recommending
    research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn’t say compensate, we
    wouldn’t say pull the vaccine, we wouldn’t say stop the program.”

    Hey I got a question for Dr. Stratton, what if the vaccines were causing Autism ADD ADHD Speech Delay and other neurological problems?
    She answered that already Dr. Stratton of the Vaccine Commission
    the line we will not cross in public policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule.
    We could say it is time to revisit this but we will never recommend that level

    Parents these people seem a little sick in the head, to me and people who are sick in the head do not need to be in charge of vaccine safety. Not only are they sick they have no integrity or a moral compass and are very arrogant and corrupt. This is who is in charge of Vaccine safety in America.

    Next we find Dr. McCormick saying they will never admit their mistake

    Similarly, Dr. McCormick, at page 97 in discussing whether autism could
    be
    associated with vaccines, stated that “we are not ever going to come
    down
    that it is a true side effect,” despite the fact that the committee had
    not
    yet considered any evidence on this issue.

    Dad of a severely vaccine damaged son.

  52. Joe
    October 7, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    You honestly believe those who have poisoned the children, will ever do real research? it could put them in prison, have you ever heard of the story of the boy who cryed wolf. He was caught in one lie after another and eventually no one would believe him Just like the CDC. you said why we can’t trust the so called new study. “The CDC was a main contributor to the study”
    May I remind you what a high up CDC person said “This was not rocket science this was ninth grade math” He said all that because of the pesky
    words on the MSDS ; Thimerosal is accumulative in the body it targets the organs of the body in particular the brain and the lining around the brain.

    As for the new 2006 study, that said you can put all the Thimerosal you want in the children.The main researcher has not worked for the CDC since 2006 he retired from the CDC “new indeed” corrupted CDC agents doing fraudulent studies trying to keep their corrupt butts out of prison do not impress me. I keep hearing this email ringing in my ear “were afraid the public will perceive us asleep at the switch for decades, for allowing this dangerous compound to remain in the vaccines.

    After it was found to be causing neurological damage in dogs in 1990 it
    was removed, but allowed to remain in children’s vaccines till 2002 some say 2004 with a 2 yr expiration date on top of that.

    I will prove vaccines are dangerous and use the CDC spokes people to prove it, do you remember the Katrina disaster the CDC found formaldehyde in those trailers? The CDC came forward and said there is absolutely no safe levels what so ever of formaldehyde none!. Guess what is in children’s vaccines injected formaldehyde.

    Years ago the CDC was in a documentary on refrigerators mothers causing
    Autism, it was just being talked about that this could be Heavy metal poisoning. The CDC said in that show on PBS that I have a copy of
    that there is no safe levels of heavy metals none. Guess what is in the
    children’s vaccines Mercury and Aluminum. Last I checked those were heavy metals.
    The Manufacturer Safety data Sheet of Thimerosal says never mix the two
    Mercury and Aluminum. Guess what the people who is responsible for vaccine safety have done? They have mixed Thimerosal and Aluminum
    A tox specialist can tell you why not to do this, it is the synergy effect of the two salts mixed the Toxins Toxicity is raised by 10 times.
    Excuse me but it sounds a bit foolish to not listen to a warning from the maker of the very product in question.

    With what I have learned about the people at the CDC and the FDA, is that they probably run stop signs and run off of bridges all the time because they seem ignorant to borderline stupid when it comes to ad-herring to any and all warnings of danger. They have never heard of erring on the side of caution and the health of the children in this country reflect that arrogance.

  53. October 7, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    Readers will undoubtedly notice that Joe’s comments are copied and pasted from another source rather than written for this specific thread, and so can be disregarded by those interested in genuine engagement — or uninterested in conspiracy theories, or unpleasant attitudes towards our children with autism.

  54. October 7, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    Joe, if you go to the nearest emergency room and repeat what you just wrote in your comments, then they will be obligated to help you. Good luck with all that.

  55. Kev
    October 8, 2010 at 1:44 am

    Shannon, well done for this great piece which in many ways mirrors my own experiences.

    Regarding the seriously misinformed people on this thread who still believe, against all science, reason and information that vaccines cause autism however you have to take into account the saying: You cannot reason some one out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

    What you can take heart from though is that when they are as smilingly rude as Sara, as faux-detailed as Joe or as ready with the use of all caps as many – you’ve got them bothered :)

  56. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 8:56 am

    Joe, Thank you so much for spending your time and energy trying to shed some truth on this topic. I personally get very offended when people call me Anti-vax. If that were true my Son would not have Autism. He has autism from the vaccines. I am Grateful that all of our children were not effected the same way but you all should not be putting down those of us that know Vaccines caused our children’s Autism. believe what you want on either side we all have that right. we also have the right to respond to insane articles like this. This is staged and sad, if my Son had cancer no one I would hope would try to argue with me about the cause. Some children are born with it and others have regressed after Vaccines. period end of story.

  57. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 9:01 am

    If our Country was so set on the ‘idea” that Vaccines are safe and dont cause autism then why wont we do the Vaccinated vs unvaccinated study? There are many people in my State alone that would be involved. They dont do it because they know what it would show. The Science isnt there at all. Study after study say the same thing but you also have to look into who funds the study. Follow the money and you will see why this continues to happen to kids everyday.Kids that are unvaccinted are healthier and Happier.

  58. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 9:39 am

    A Reminder for Readers, Vaccines can and do cause autism. Educate yourself, You will thank yourselves later.

  59. October 8, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Oh wow. If these people are actually the parents of children with neurological disorders labeled autism, they have very much been duped. I truly doubt all of you are sincere & suspect some are representing those with vested interests who love money more than children.

    Our people who have done the proper research have a plan. You can you can get the gist of what angry parents, activists & world citizens are doing to take back the health & well being of our children by seeing this Fox news reporter’s Facebook wall @ http://www.facebook.com/AlisynCamerota

    See my posts there. I am the crying eagle who weeps for this supposed to be great nation & all other countries who have been hurt because of “US” & our vaccinations gone crazy practice.

  60. October 8, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Meanwhile, in nations that lack a substantial vaccine program, crying human mothers mourn the loss of hundreds of thousands of children whose lives could have been saved had vaccines been available to them. This antivax garbage is a true first-world problem. So much anger in this country is drama, but these parents’ grief over the deaths of their children is very real. Their children are truly gone, never to be seen or touched or hugged or loved again.

    I am actually the parent of a child with autism whom I love so deeply that it hurts, not because he has autism but because he is my child. There is no money involved in what I do or say here. None. It’s extraordinary the depths that people have gone to in their efforts to dismiss rational discussion as compensated shilling.

    Once again, all I see here from people who are against vaccines are threats, personal attacks and false accusations (“you love money more than you love children”), paranoid conspiracy theories, and a great deal of vituperation and anger. Why do you behave this way? Say that somehow, you were right. What does this behavior get for you? You simply come across as immature and empty-handed when it comes to any real data. Is that the face you want to put on your movement–angry, empty-handed ignorance? If you have data to present, then present it. Conspiracy theories, ad hominems, false accusations, and comparisons to birds of prey do not prove your argument. They only worsen your presentation and make you look irrational, perseverative, and pointlessly angry.

  61. Tom
    October 8, 2010 at 10:41 am

    “Comparisons to birds of prey”

    [chortle]

  62. October 8, 2010 at 11:19 am

    I doubt anyone will thank you for spreading falsehoods about vaccinations and contributing to the worst whooping cough/pertussis outbreak in 55 years:

    http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20101001/unraveling-the-whooping-cough-epidemic

  63. October 8, 2010 at 11:46 am

    Kelly, a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study would be unethical. I explain at length why in this comment.

  64. Virginia Young
    October 8, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Just because a parent of an autistic child uses vaccines does not make vaccines safe for everyone. If any parent takes the time to do intensive research beyond the doctor’s office and beyond the blogs, he/she will find that reactions to vaccines are very well established in the medical community dating back to the inception of vaccination. Regardless of the stance of the average American pediatrician, who holds an average of $80,000 worth of vaccines in his or her office, vaccinations still pose a greater threat to some people than the actual disease does. I, for one, have solid immunity to chicken pox even though I never suffered from the illness itself. The vast majority have no problem with varicella and 80% of those who have never had the pox have immunity. Small pox vaccine was pulled from the market because the risks outweighed the benefit and we do not have small pox running rampant through our communities.

    I believed in vaccination until I saw the reality of vaccine injury. To add insult to injury we were told to keep going and given other reasons for the neurologic damage. We were removed from our home for mold that wasn’t there.

    We know our children were adversely affected by every shot and finally doctors admitted it, but only after we were fully vaccinated and we were passed the 3 year cut off to enter into the NVICP, an organization that I didn’t even know existed even though by law the doctors are required to inform the parents of the fund. My husband is a physician and he knew nothing of the realities of vaccine injury and the politics involved. Until a parent says “No” he or she really can’t understand the full impact of the politics and doesn’t get to the heart of the matter.

  65. Michelle
    October 8, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    “I’m sorry, Jenny, but Mariska Hargitay, Christopher Meloni, Ice-T, and Stephanie March say that measles kills and that we need to vaccinate our kids not just to keep them healthy, but also to protect other people’s kids. And because the SVU team members are celebrities too but outnumber you, I’m going to side with them.

”

    you’re kidding right???? You have no problems listening to people from SUV…..you do realize they are actors making big bucks in made up story lines.

  66. Michelle
    October 8, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    And to Joe, who commented a while back, you make the most sense…Kudos to Rita, keep fighting the good fight. Unfortunately there are so many out there who wish to believe the government, so called Doctors and Big Pharma. We live in a frightful world where modern medicine has little to offer people except more misery and the expense of their pocketbook.

  67. October 8, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Readers may also find it telling that the commenters (Liz, Emily, Kev, Squillo, Jennifer, etc.) making evidence-based reiterations regarding no link between vaccines and autism with evidence — are also linking their names to their websites — establishing their credibility.

    Not one of the antivaccinationists has linked their name to a website establishing their identity (Marsha’s link is to a Facebook conspiracy theory group.) Why should we believe anyone who not only spreads misinformation, but then lacks the courage to stand behind their statements?

  68. Kev
    October 8, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    For me the real solution is moving all these antivaxxers to their own little island off the coast somewhere. There they could live their sweet conspiracy laden dreams all unbothered from the rest of the responsible world living an all-natural existence and hugging trees. I even have a name for their Island – Paranoia :)

  69. Pam
    October 8, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    This is a well written article with tons of information. Information, it seems, coming from a paid representative of an industry failing to PROOVE, that vaccines are not harmless. Why are you so quick to attack people who do no share your views? Something to hide? Where is your infomation coming from? What studies? Who funded those studies? Why do you bring attention to fiction on television and information that “shows” what to believe regarding vaccines? Why are paid personalities touting pro-vaccine information on a paid television ad from an industry that wants to market it’s products…..the products which make them millions and millions of dollars? The pharmeceutical industry can also get any outcome they want with the proper funding or the proper paper shredder!

    You opinion and your story hold no weight! You need to go back and get a better script….one that is more believeable with real evidence!

    Any mother who has had a child with any reaction from any vaccine and continues to allow the “Mad Science” industry to continue to violate her child should, indeed, have that child removed from her care. Criminal charges be brough against her and her so reliable pediatrician who is paid off by the pharmeceutical industry.

    Why did you take precautions when re-administring vaccines to your children? If you really thought vaccines were safe you would have not even considered any precautions. If you really thought vaccines were safe then you would not have a question of doubt! But it seems you do!

  70. October 8, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Thanks to Shannon for allowing us to repost her blog and for her unabashed defense of her position on vaccines. The comment thread that has ensued has been very enlightening and although many of us continue to disagree on whose theories are correct, one thing is certain: we all have the best interest of our children at heart. Several respondents on our accompanying Vaccinate Your Baby face book page have been calling out for the administrators to screen comments and disallow some of those that do not exhibit a pro-vaccine slant. This would be the easy way out and would result in a one-sided dialogue that would soon become tiring and ineffectual—going against Shot of Prevention’s and our facebook page’s primary mission. Instead I write to remind those who wish to comment to do your best to stay above board, to avoid finger pointing and to point to the facts whenever possible. Yes, our children’s well being is top priority and I do believe we can have a discourse about our fears, anxieties, and the challenges many of us face every day in raising them…some much more than others.
    Amy Pisani, Exec. Director – Every Child By Two http://www.ecbt.org & http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org

  71. October 8, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    Pam, I’m so glad you appreciate my writing.

    The evidence I have provided speaks for itself, as does my methodical journey in dispelling my doubts and fears about vaccinations.

    Your hysteria in choosing to disbelieve the evidence and asking for criminal charges to be brought against me speaks for itself, as well.

  72. Parent
    October 8, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    As an adult who nearly died of complications from pertussis (5 days in the hospital and 3 months on O2 from Pneumonia) this past June, I just want to thank you so much for your research-based point of view. I can’t believe that people’s response to the science is “nu-uh! I feel otherwise!” I was an adult, wondering why in the hell this was happening to me…I can only imagine what it would be like for a kid…
    Also, people are now recommending pertussis vaccines for adults…lets all get them…seriously.

  73. Tom
    October 8, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    This thread s/be required reading for all parents. It would prove to them without a doubt that the antivaxers are absolutely off the deep end.

    My own wife — once a faithful regular commenter at Age of Autism — has been turned off by them. Believe me, if the antivaxers can’t even hold on to HER, well . . . .

    I especially love how they keep saying “show me the studies” when there are links here to dozens of papers. Refusing to “believe” the reality of scientific data is delusional. Sorry. This is where they cross the line into irrationality on this issue.

    As Emily pointed out upthread, even if they were right about everything, their rhetoric would fail to attract adherents. The way to convince people of something is by dispassionately providing the facts — not by typing in all caps or accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being in on the conspiracy . . . .

  74. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Did you all know that 70% of the people that have come down with Whooping Cough in California have been Vaccinated against it? Vaccines do not protect us. If they did why would anyone worry about someone elses children? And please dont come back with the whole Herd immunity line.

  75. October 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Dear Amy,

    Several respondents on our accompanying Vaccinate Your Baby face book page have been calling out for the administrators to screen comments and disallow some of those that do not exhibit a pro-vaccine slant.

    Thank you for resisting the pressure to censor comments. One of the things I value about evidence-based sites such as Shot of Prevention is that they do not censor comments. This is in contrast to many of the “vaccines cause autism” sites, which heavily censor comments that disagree with their positions–to the point that there are sites set up for censored comments to be posted..

    You wrote:

    one thing is certain: we all have the best interest of our children at heart.

    I would moderate your statement to: we all have what we believe to be the best interests of our children at heart.

    As individuals in society, we have a duty of care not just for our own families, but for others. The decision to refuse vaccination has implications beyond the family circle.

    I became an advocate for evidence-based evaluations of vaccines in 1998, when someone dear to me became immuno-compromised after chemo & was at risk for acquiring vaccine-preventable diseases. At the time, there were lingering fears about vaccination, mostly from the previous decade’s problems with the whole-cell pertussis vaccine.

    Over time, my ideas have evolved. I now believe that high uptake rates for vaccine-preventable diseases is also a social-justice issue. The costs of contracting childhood vaccine-preventable diseases fall disproportionately on the poor, who have less access to health care. The burden on a working mother who has to stay home to care for an ill child is especially heavy on the working poor, who may not have vacation time as an employment benefit.

  76. Janine
    October 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Hello people

    I am a Biological Chemist and I have to say the following on the topic of vaccines & autism:

    1. If the so called posters say “so and so hated Melanie as she didn’t get vaccinated” but the friends did? Who isn’t to say that the friends got the illness from the jab and not from the unvaccinated Melanie?

    2. Ok so we know that Thiomersal is supposed to not be used as in the finished product, however it does fail to mention that during the synthesis of the jab, it is still stored in vials of thiomersal. So as a chemist, I know there will be some amounts of the chemical left there.

    3. Why do twice vaccinated people get Measless? There is a paper published in NEJM that twice jabbed people got measles? Vaccine failure in a large population (1-2 thousand people an “error”) The same goes for vaccine “failure”

    4. I also have issues with what neurotoxins etc the child comes into contact inside the mum’s womb? I mean just because the child hasn’t been autistic or whatever, it doesn’t mean to say that the child has issues with the elimination of the metals .

    5. Who has heard of epilepsy having a pathogenesis of increased Al levels in the brain and where can we find a good dollop of Al? you guessed it?

    6. THIS IS INSANE THIS NEXT BIT! Why does the CDC/FDA/NICE whomever use INGESTED amounts of a substance – surely to goodness they know the body has a mucosal immune system and the blood system doesn’t? so dears as far as the various bodies are concerned – the toxicology tested they use isn’t accurate and therefore it can be called fraud and inaccurate and for “scientists” they should hang their head in shame?

    7. No safety studies have done of vaccine schedules – in the UK we have 5/6/7 in one jabs and do we know how the various microbes in the jabs work? I haven’t seen papers? they are largely untested for the common function of mutating microbes and interspecies fighting and the population of the most virulent species! (survival of the fittest)

    Until you can safely answer these questions and address them, then in my eyes the jabs are deemed unsafe in my eyes!

    p.s. Did you know that the Aluminium hydroxyphosphate (the most reactive of the AlOP4 and Aluminium hydroxide AlOH adjuvants in vaccines) is a compound which can go direct to bond matter – it is similar in structure to bone splints! Oh and the so called placebo in the gardasil jab was ALUMINIUM not saline or anything else like that? ALUMINIUM???

  77. Rita
    October 8, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    It was just obvious that there was a vaccination adjenda in the blog, and that it was just not merely an Autism Mom warning other parents. go ahead and block those who disagree, so many of us have experienced vaccine injury, and when you live with a child who has a severe brain injury from routine vaccination, you see it ever day, you live with it…day in and day out.
    It is ridiculous that when parents ahve issues following vaccines, doctors brush them off, and wont conceed that it is possible….When the literature that you sign your life away for indicates there are risks. The risks are not being properly measured.
    Sorry there is an out break of Pertussis…sorry for that…and I TRUELY wish my son had Pertussis, rather than the vaccine to prevent it, that caused his severe brain damage.

  78. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Nice Kev, way to go!!! Do you feel better now being rude to Mothers that saw their children regress and have seizures right after the shots? Did you know that those are also side effects from the vaccines. Maybe you should find that Island.

  79. Rita
    October 8, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    It was just obvious that there was a vaccination adjenda in the blog, and that it was just not merely an Autism Mom warning other parents. go ahead and block those who disagree, so many of us have experienced vaccine injury, and when you live with a child who has a severe brain injury from routine vaccination, you see it ever day, you live with it…day in and day out.
    It is ridiculous that when parents ahve issues following vaccines, doctors brush them off, and wont conceed that it is possible….When the literature that you sign your life away for indicates there are risks. The risks are not being properly measured.
    Sorry there is an out break of Pertussis…sorry for that…and I TRUELY wish my son had Pertussis, rather than the vaccine to prevent it, that caused his severe brain damage.
    Unfortunately, when you have a child with a vaccine injury…people treat you like dirt….If your child had a car accident or other brain injury…they are likely to hold a benefit in your name.

  80. October 8, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Kelly,

    1. Could you provide a citation for

    70% of the people that have come down with Whooping Cough in California have been Vaccinated against it?

    2. Pertussis immunology 101: immunity wears off. It is believed that even the immunity conferred by contracting the disease wanes after 5-10 years.

    Vaccines do not protect us. If they did why would anyone worry about someone elses children? And please dont come back with the whole Herd immunity line.

    I do not know why reality-deniers such as Kelly refuse to acknowledge that herd immunity exists, and serves to protect both the vaccinated and non-vaccinated. It’s easy to demonstrate, as this animation from the History of Vaccines website shows

  81. Kev
    October 8, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    I think these mothers are sadly mistaken. It’s not unusual. As for their being side effects vaccinations, of course there are – any medical process carries a certain risk. But one of those risks is not autism, sorry.

  82. Kev
    October 8, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    You wish you son had a life threatening illness rather than autism? You’re an idiot. I’m sorry your poor son is saddled with such a waste of oxygen for a parent.

  83. October 8, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Shannon,
    Thanks for writing this piece. You nicely illustrate how we all need and want to put thought into the health decisions we make for our kids.

  84. October 8, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Please don’t stoop to name-calling, Kev.

  85. October 8, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Rita, you wrote:

    It was just obvious that there was a vaccination adjenda in the blog, and that it was just not merely an Autism Mom warning other parents.

    The word is agenda.

    As I replied to Amy, It is my opinion that that high vaccine uptake rates for infectious diseases are a social justice issue. The burden of vaccine-preventable diseases fall disproportionately upon the poor.

    go ahead and block those who disagree,

    Amy already said that it is the policy of this blog not to block comments.

    The risks are not being properly measured.

    That is just counter-factual. There are regular, long-term clinical trials both pre-market and post-market, to establish the safety and efficacy of each new vaccine introduced. In fact, the post-market surveillance of a vaccine against rotavirus caused its withdrawal (perhaps prematurely)

  86. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Kev it is very sad to me that you continue to act like a rude little child. There is no need for you to comment if all you want to do is put people down.

  87. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Reality?? Yeah right Liz, come see my Reality sometime. I deny lies.

  88. October 8, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Liz, I don’t see the citation you requested. In fact, in perusing this thread of comments, I don’t see *any* citations related to scientific evidence. In other words, I don’t see anything to discuss.

    Pam up there somewhere said that the argument here is that vaccines are harmless. No one is arguing that, and it would be indefensible to do so. But the fact is that vaccines cause no harm whatsoever to the vast majority who receive them while preventing widespread disease and death simultaneously. As I noted way up there somewhere, *no medical intervention is without risk,* not even putting an adhesive bandage on your child. It’s pointless to accuse people of claiming that “vaccines are harmless” when no one has claimed that.

    That leads me once again to the question: What exactly is it that you’re arguing if you’re arguing against vaccines, and what specific scientific evidence do you have to back it up?

  89. October 8, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Let’s just get aluminum out of the way–Aluminum in vaccines: http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/aluminum.html You’ll find that there’s more in breast milk than there is in vaccines.

    Regarding your number 7, the question doesn’t make any sense, so I can’t address it. If you’re asserting in some way that there have been no safety studies of vaccine schedules, that’s odd, given the incredible tracking of data on this very topic. Not entirely sure what any of this has to do with autism?

    Ditto 6…I can’t tell what you’re saying there, either. Toxicology testing is one of the most standardized fields in the life sciences, with strict protocols and algorithms, but I still can’t tell what you’re saying here.

    Regarding 5, do you have some sort of data or study demonstrating a link between vaccines and epilepsy? See also http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/aluminum.html again regarding the aluminum issue. A search of PubMed didn’t turn up any immediate hits for this issue; indeed, the latest study on DTaP and simple seizures turned up no link.

    Regarding 4, the recent Pediatrics study addressed exactly this question in terms of prenatal thimerosal and found no association whatsoever: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/peds.2010-0309v1.pdf

    Regarding 3, people can even have the measles and not develop immunity to it. I know this because I happen to be one of those people; I do not produce antibodies.

    Regarding 2, your rationale is insufficient. Once water has been in a vial and is evaporated, is there some left in there? How about ethanol? Also, can you provide links to references indicating that thimerosal is used in processing of vaccines? Its role is as a preservative, so…

    Regarding 1, I don’t know what this refers to.

  90. Tom
    October 8, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    Emily, I think Janine’s #6 refers to the “vaccines bypass the immune system’s first line of defense and that’s what makes them dangerous” argument. That is, the antigens and additives in vaccines are supposedly “more dangerous” or “more powerful” than those we take in naturally, because the substances in vaccines are injected.

  91. Rita
    October 8, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Kev,
    He would have most likely survived Pertussis like most kids do…..unscathed. He is living with a severe brain injury.
    YOU….ARE PERHAPS….THE BIGGEST WASTE OF A BRAIN THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN. MY SON HAD AN INJURY TO A VACCINE…AND YOU SPREAD VILE ATTACKS. TALK ABOUT TOTAL SCUM… SPREAD THE VACCINE ADJENDA….AT NO COSTS, EVEN TO THE PARENTS LIVING WITH THE LIFE THREATENING INJURIES OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED BY A VACCINE. SORRY YOU ARE SUCH AN OBNOXIOUS IDIOT. I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR FAMILY.

  92. Rita
    October 8, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/whooping_cough_returns_to_hunt.html

    There were 27 Cases in all of Pertussis. All 27 cases of Children were FULLY VACCINATED with the 6 Nj required DTaP’s. Out of all 27 cases….all the children returned to school with in 5 days….
    SO TO KEV…THE ROCKET SCIENTIST IN THE GROUP…..YES, I WISH MY SON HAD PERTUSSIS, AS APPOSED TO THE CONTAMINATED DPT HE HAD BACK IN 1994. I ACTUALLY WISH ONE OF YOUR KIDS HAD THAT LOT AND BATCH NUMBER , AND WE WERE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE FENCE…IF YOU WANT TO BE QUITE HONEST!

  93. October 8, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Janine, some of your points were very difficult to understand.

    1. If the so called posters say “so and so hated Melanie as she didn’t get vaccinated” but the friends did? Who isn’t to say that the friends got the illness from the jab and not from the unvaccinated Melanie?

    (a)You must be writing about some other discussion, as none of the posters expressing support for vaccination has discussed hating non-vaccinating friends. Heated discussion, yes, but hating, no.
    (b) “getting illness from the jab” — this is the myth that receiving a vaccination gives you the disease. It is a myth, based on a single event: in 1955, manufacturing errors at Cutter Labs led to an outbreak of polio, because the vaccine had not been inactivated. The incident and its implications are discussed at length in The Cutter Incident, written by Paul Offit. Yes, that Paul Offit, reviled as a vaccine apologist. Otherwise, the “vaccine gave me the disease” is just a myth.

    2. Ok so we know that Thiomersal is supposed to not be used as in the finished product, however it does fail to mention that during the synthesis of the jab, it is still stored in vials of thiomersal. So as a chemist, I know there will be some amounts of the chemical left there.

    (a) thiomersal appears to be the UK/European spelling; it’s thimerosal in the US.
    (b) your understanding of vaccine manufacture seems a bit vague. “Stored in vials of thiomersal?” Not at all. According to the World Health Organization

    Thiomersal (also known as thimerosal, mercurothiolate and sodium 2-ethylmercuriothio-benzoate) is a mercury-containing compound used to prevent bacterial and fungal growth in some vaccines during storage, and especially during use of opened multi-dose vials. It has also been used during vaccine production both to inactivate certain organisms and toxins and to maintain a sterile production line.

    (c) You also do not seem to understand the concept of dose-response, or “the dose makes the poison”. Again from WHO

    Upon review of the current epidemiologic evidence and phamacokinetic profile of thiomersal, the Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety concluded that there is currently no evidence of mercury toxicity in infants, children, or adults exposed to thiomersal in vaccines. It also concluded that there is no reason to change current immunization practices with thiomersal-containing vaccines on the grounds of safety. The safety of thiomersal-containing vaccines is reviewed at regular intervals. In the meantime, the available evidence warrants the recommendation that current WHO immunization policy with respect to thiomersal-containing vaccines should not be changed.

    In short, the trace elements of thimerosal left in some vaccines from the manufacturing process show no risk.

    3. Why do twice vaccinated people get Measless? There is a paper published in NEJM that twice jabbed people got measles? Vaccine failure in a large population (1-2 thousand people an “error”) The same goes for vaccine “failure”

    (a) re the NEJM article. It would have been helpful if you had provided a title or a link. It’s possibly this article:

    Measles Outbreak in a Fully Immunized Secondary-School Population

    Tracy L. Gustafson, M.D., Alan W. Lievens, M.D., Philip A. Brunell, M.D., Ronald G. Moellenberg, B.S., Christopher M.G. Buttery, M.D., and Lynne M. Sehulster, Ph.D.

    N Engl J Med 1987; 316:771-774March 26, 1987

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303.

    (b) You seem to be somewhat naive about immunology and vaccinology. No vaccine is 100% effective in causing immunity from the disease. For that matter, having the disease does not confer 100% lifelong immunity, either. In general, the safer the vaccine in terms of side effects, the less effective.

    4. I also have issues with what neurotoxins etc the child comes into contact inside the mum’s womb? I mean just because the child hasn’t been autistic or whatever, it doesn’t mean to say that the child has issues with the elimination of the metals.

    What does this comment have to do with vaccines? And are you assuming some sort of heavy-metal poisoning?

    5. Who has heard of epilepsy having a pathogenesis of increased Al levels in the brain and where can we find a good dollop of Al? you guessed it?

    I assume by Al you mean aluminum.
    (a) There is aluminum encephalopathy syndrome, which includes seizures

    is a progressive encephalopathy of infants and children with chronic renal insufficiency who have taken aluminum-containing products such as phosphate binders for several years.3,16-18 Adults occasionally are also affected. Patients have elevated brain aluminum concentration.17,19 Aluminum absorption is increased in renal insufficiency by secondary hypoparathyroidism, and aluminum excretion is reduced.3

    “a good dollop of Al?”

    Suppose you quantify what you are saying. Oh, wait, let medo it for you:

    Here’s another way to think about this: All babies are either breast-fed or bottle- fed. Because both breast milk and infant formula contain aluminum, all babies have small quantities of aluminum in their bloodstreams all the time. The amount is very small: about 5 nanograms (billionths of a gram) per milliliter of blood (about one-fifth of a teaspoon). Indeed, the quantity of aluminum in vaccines is so small that even after an injection of vaccines, the amount of aluminum in a baby’s blood does not detectably change.

    Baylor NW, Egan W, Richman P. Aluminum salts in vaccines— U.S. perspective. Vaccine 2002; 20: S18-S23.

    Bishop NJ, Morley R, Day JP, Lucas A. Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions. New England Journal of Medicine 1997; 336: 1557-1561.

    Committee on Nutrition: Aluminum toxicity in infants and children. Pediatrics 1996; 97: 413-416.

    Ganrot, PO. Metabolism and possible health effects of aluminum. Environmental Health Perspective 1986; 65: 363- 441.

    Keith LS, Jones DE, Chou C. Aluminum toxicokinetics regarding infant diet and vaccinations. Vaccine 2002; 20: S13- S17.

    Pennington JA. Aluminum content of food and diets. Food Additives and Contaminants, 1987; 5: 164-232.

    Simmer K, Fudge A, Teubner J, James SL. Aluminum concentrations in infant formula. Journal of Paediatrics and Child Health 1990; 26: 9-11.

    More science:

    The US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) estimated these levels for infants taking into account the amount of aluminum a child would eat as well as receive by injection of vaccines. The body burden of aluminum from both sources is below the minimal risk level except transiently following vaccinations; since 50-70% of injected aluminum is excreted within 24 hours, this is believed to have no negative effect.

    Keith LS, Jones DE, and Chou C-HSJ (2002). Aluminum toxicokinetics regarding infant diet and vaccinations. Vaccine, 20: S13-17.

    6. THIS IS INSANE THIS NEXT BIT! Why does the CDC/FDA/NICE whomever use INGESTED amounts of a substance – surely to goodness they know the body has a mucosal immune system and the blood system doesn’t? so dears as far as the various bodies are concerned – the toxicology tested they use isn’t accurate and therefore it can be called fraud and inaccurate and for “scientists” they should hang their head in shame?

    If you had some facts, I’d address this question.

    7. No safety studies have done of vaccine schedules – in the UK we have 5/6/7 in one jabs and do we know how the various microbes in the jabs work? I haven’t seen papers? they are largely untested for the common function of mutating microbes and interspecies fighting and the population of the most virulent species! (survival of the fittest)

    (a) For someone who claims a science background, you are uncommonly loose with terminology. The “5-in-one” jab is called Pentacel in the US; it protects against . I couldn’t find any scientific sources for “6-in-one jab” or the “7-in-one jab”, so I’m guessing you made it up.

    (b) You are misinformed about safety studies.

    On the contrary, vaccines are tested in larger numbers of children for longer periods of time than drugs. For example, the human papillomavirus vaccine was tested in 30000 women,9 the conjugate pneumococcal vaccine in 40000 children,10 and each of the current rotavirus vaccines in ~70000 children before licensure.11,12 No medication receives this level of scrutiny. Furthermore, safety mechanisms such as the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project are model systems for detecting rare adverse events after licensure.

    You go on to write:

    Until you can safely answer these questions and address them, then in my eyes the jabs are deemed unsafe in my eyes!

    I do hope you follow some of these links and become better educated.

    p.s. Did you know that the Aluminium hydroxyphosphate (the most reactive of the AlOP4 and Aluminium hydroxide AlOH adjuvants in vaccines) is a compound which can go direct to bond matter – it is similar in structure to bone splints! Oh and the so called placebo in the gardasil jab was ALUMINIUM not saline or anything else like that? ALUMINIUM???

    OK, enough with the hysteria, Janine

    There are three general types of aluminum-containing adjuvants:

    * Aluminum hydroxide
    * Aluminum phosphate
    * Potassium aluminum sulfate (often called “Alum”)

    The effectiveness of each salt as an adjuvant depends on the characteristics of the specific vaccine and how the manufacturer prepares the vaccine.

    Baylor NW, Egan W and Richman P (2002). Aluminum salts in vaccines-US perspective. Vaccine, 20: S18-23.

    To work as an adjuvant, the antigen must be adsorbed to the aluminum; that is, it is clumped with the aluminum salt to keep the antigen at the site of injection.

    Romero Mendez IZ, Shi Y, HogenEsch H, et al. (2007). Potentiation of the immune response to non-adsorbed antigens by aluminum-containing adjuvants. Vaccine, 25; 825-833.

    Janine, you started your comment by claiming some level of authority because you are a “Biological Chemist”, which seems to be a UK and Indian job title. I hope the work you do in your career shows more intellectual and academic rigor that you have shown here.

  94. October 8, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    Rita, you are obviously in a lot of pain, and I hope that you have been able to find the support you and your son need.

    However, to make light of pertussis, especially during an active epidemic, is irresponsible. Pertussis can kill both babies and children. Here are some pertussis victims’ stories. I hope you take the time to read them:

    http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/why/victims.cfm

    More info on the current pertussis epidemic:

    http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20101001/unraveling-the-whooping-cough-epidemic

  95. Kelly
    October 8, 2010 at 7:25 pm

    Hugs Rita, they will never understand unless it happens to them.

  96. October 8, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Shannon, thank you for pointing to our victims story on the vaccinate your baby page. Pertussis is not, I repeat not something you wish for your child, or anyone’s child to contract. Yes some of the children in the recent outbreak were vaccinated, however the recent outbreak is simply that, recent news. The CDC estimates that the actual number of cases of pertussis each year far exceeds reported cases. That is why we are so desperately trying to increase the number of adults who are vaccinated against pertussis so that the overall chances of a pre-vaccinated infant being exposed to the disease are reduced. It offends me to the core that the families who were courageous and caring enough to share their stories with us to save other children would be subjected to anyone’s suggestion that they would prefer that their child contract any deadly vaccine preventable disease. In my eyes comparing dealing autism with dealing with the death of a child is not only inappropriate, hurtful and offensive.

  97. October 8, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    Kelly, it is easy to find that Shannon’s son has (in her words) “intense autism”. Kev removed all information about his child from the internet after a “autism is vaccine injury” advocate posted heinous comments about the child; since I’ve been following Kev for so long, I know that his child is also “deeply autistic,” as Susan Senator says of her son on Facebook:

    Lately I’ve been thinking of Nat as being “deeply autistic,” rather than “severely autistic.” “Deeply” has no value judgment, but is more descriptive and layered.

    Several other of the commenters here, and elsewhere on the internet who have rejected the “autism = vaccine injury” idea also have children with significant challenges.

    In other words, it has happened to them.

  98. toby dawson
    October 8, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    My son Nathan’s regression PROVES THE DANGERS OF VACCINATION.
    Nathan did not start regression until two and a half years instead of the 10 to 18 month “Normal” regression window because i held off on MMR vax for over a year whilst i desperately tried to find somewhere to get single jabs.

    I gave in to SHILL pressure and my son started regressing but so slowly it took me three months to realise something was wrong. AND i was still listening to conventional medicine at Three and a half when i let him have the pre-school booster DTP/h and inside three months my son was GONE – - previuosly he was playing, talking, creating and taking the lead,; now he was a headbanging, screaming, introverted ball of terror with no language and no eye-contact – and very exclusive “Stims”.

    I started out on my own exactly a year ago and now i have eye-contact coming back, some language coming back, some play coming back and I got even
    more.
    …..6th Oct 2010 Nathan seems to have turned another corner – he
    has spoken mostly coherently most of the day, has played and been
    naughty (and apologised for it) and made deep and profound eye contact
    on several occasions – - level 3 almost across the board on the Son-Rise
    scale. I am holding my breath with nervous exciteme…nt and euphiveria
    (one up fom euphoria).
    ….7th Oct 2010letter from his special needs school – which i had to blackmail my local council with threats of media exposure before they granted him a place – “Nathan has had a great week,,,, ASKING to go to the toilet,,,,, CALLING staff by their Names a couple of times,,,” and when he got home from school he said “HUNGRY DADDY! ICE CREAM PLEEEEESE DADDY!” and spent an hour of totally interractive play with me after wolfing down his GF/CF
    Spaghetti Bolognaise fiollowed by special pseudo-ice cream.

    For you
    shills, I listened to you and LOST MY SON and for that you have my
    CONTEMPT,
    For those of you who have also suffered, by going it alone, by NOT buying the contemptible crap that the greedy and soulless pharmaceutical companies are pouring into your lives on a daily basis I AM RECOVERING MY SON and SO CAN YOU.

  99. October 8, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    Rita, Kev should not have insulted you. It was wrong, and I rebuked him at the time. I wish he would come back and make amends.

    However, whooping cough (pertussis) isn’t trivial, or something to wish on another.

    All 27 cases of Children were FULLY VACCINATED with the 6 Nj required DTaP’s

    Immunity to pertussis from vaccines (or for that matter, having the disease itself) wears off in 5-10 years. The last outbreak in my neck of the woods was among high-school students. There wasn’t even a vaccine licensed for children over six until 2005.

    The current outbreak in California shows that it isn’t a disease to be laughed off:

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Pages/PertussisSummaryReports.aspx Here’s a partial summary:

    As of 10/5/2010, there have been 5,272 confirmed, probable and suspect cases of pertussis reported in 2010 for a state rate of 13.5 cases/100,000.
    811 new cases have been reported to CDPH this week.

    This is the most cases reported in 60 years when 6,613 cases were reported in 1950 and the highest incidence in 51 years when a rate of 16.1 cases/100,000 was reported in 1959. Previously, the peak was in 2005 when there were 3,182 cases reported

    Of the 40% of cases with known hospitalization information – 225 (11%) cases have been hospitalized

    132 (59%) of hospitalized cases were infants <3 months of age and 167 (74%) were infants <6 months of age. 129 (77%) of the hospitalized infants <6 months of age with known race and ethnicity were Hispanic.

    In other words, there have been 58 known hospitalizations for children older than 6 months of age and adults.

    We know that pertussis is high risk for infants under 6 months of age because those include infants too young to be immunized and the risk factors are higher because of immunized youngsters’ airwaves are so small.

    Nine deaths have been reported; 8 (89%) were Hispanic infants. Eight fatalities were infants <2 months of age at time of disease onset and had not received any doses of pertussis-containing vaccine and the remainder was an ex-28 week preemie that was 2 months of age and had received the first dose of DTaP only 15 days prior to disease onset. The majority of infant cases in 2010 have occurred in infants <3 months of age

    Rates are highest in infants <6 months of age (261.3 cases/100,000), in children aged 7-9 years (40.2 cases/100,000) and adolescents aged 10-18 years (30.1 cases/100,000) The majority of adolescent cases are in 10-11 year-olds

    Overall rates by race/ethnicity are highest in Hispanics (13.4/100,000) and whites (11.8/100,000), however age-specific rates indicate that the highest rates are seen in Hispanic infants <6 months of age (322.7/100,000)

    You may have missed Parent’s comment earlier today:

    As an adult who nearly died of complications from pertussis (5 days in the hospital and 3 months on O2 from Pneumonia)

    I understand you are angry with Kev. I understand that you believe that DPT (containing whole-cell pertussis) vaccine caused your son’s condition.

    However, whole-cell pertussis vaccines are no longer given. All the preparations licensed in the US are acellular. Given the data from the current California outbreak, it’s irresponsible to advocate against vaccination.

  100. October 9, 2010 at 1:28 am

    Toby,

    You write that you “LOST MY SON.” Yet he is with you. Please reconsider how you speak of him, and his challenges. We all wish him progress.

    Parents often retroactively and mistakenly associate regression with vaccines, because of the parallel time frames for vaccination schedules and early development. This may be what happened with your son, even if you would really, really like an external factor (vaccinations) to explain the currently unexplainable (your child’s autism symptoms). We all want answers, ways to make our children’s lives easier.

    Not one person is saying that vaccines are risk-free. We are saying — and doing so on our own time, not on anyone’s dime, because we care about children’s health — that the risks are extremely low. The risks of death or injury due to automobile accidents are significant, but I don’t see anyone campaigning against cars, because we view them as a necessity. It is a pity that, due to the success of the vaccine program and our resulting unfamiliarity with the diseases it has prevented, we take its necessity for granted.

  101. joe harris
    October 9, 2010 at 2:40 am

    Please explain this secret meeting, with 6 teams of Mitochondria specialist
    explaining that the vaccines given all at once were the main suspect and the reason we have not started the drop after the removal of Thimerosal. Is the going back into the pregnant woman with the flu vaccine containing the Thimerosal.

    These teams are from around the globe,it seems that we and the UK are looking pretty ignorant in the eyes of other country’s for denying the damage done by the Vaccines. Enough that they are willing to threaten
    the US. CDC if they choose to do nothing.

    This woman said 1 in 70 are born with Autism, this is my reply from a meeting that revealed this assault on our children will not stop until we
    reach 1 in 50. The CDC was told and then warned, if they do not act on their findings, they were reminded that the clock is ticking and if they do nothing
    to address their findings they will turn over their findings to the people.

    The mother that said 1 in 70 boys are born Autistic is partially right,the numbers are 1 in 70 but they are not born Autistic. The so so aggressive AAP CDC vaccine schedule is the culprit,and that number will continue to rise. To probably 1 in every 50 before the leveling off of the Diagnosis of Autism in our kids. And the people that said that, threatened the CDC by saying they will turn over their findings to the people if the CDC chooses to do nothing with their findings infact they said the clock is ticking. The findings were, that all the vaccines given at once were possibly causing the Autism increases in children with a mitochondria Dysfunction / Disorder and that number could be as high as 1 in 50 that have the nuclear DNA for the disorders ,some there said the reason we have not seen a drop. Was probably the putting back of the(Thimerosal)50% Mercury by weight in through the Flu vaccines in pregnant women and the children. You see,they the CDC and AAP have set up the perfect storm to cause neurological damage in our children. By combining all the heavy metals and toxins in the vaccines,and by giving them all at once. And the increases that we have seen in Autism that keeps going up every 2 yr’s. Was the by product of the increases in vaccines containing the heavy metals and toxins,and that result was finding children with a higher toxic tipping point to a genetic weakness. If they were to continue adding more and more vaccines, and by doing so they are adding more and more toxins and heavy metals. It would continue to find another vulnerable subset of people with a higher toxic tipping point, and destroy their neurological systems also. And according to those that were at that telephone conference with the CDC, Some researchers on that call reported that mitochondrial dysfunction is probably much more common than the current estimate of 1-in-4,000 people. They said the potential implications for autism, then, are staggering. Continued

  102. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 2:46 am

    From the amazing best selling author David Kirby; An excerpt from his article in the Huffington post. On Tuesday, March 11, a conference call was held between vaccine safety officials at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, several leading experts in vaccine safety research, and executives from America’s Health Insurance Plans, (the HMO trade association) to discuss childhood mitochondrial dysfunction and its potential link to autism and vaccines.It was a sobering event for all concerned, and it could soon become known as the Conference Call heard ’round the world.The teleconference was scheduled by a little known CDC agency called the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) Network, a consortium of six research centers working on “immunization-associated health risks,” in conjunction with the CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and the health insurance lobby — whose companies cover some 200 million Americans. The hot topic of the day was mitochondria – the little powerhouses within each cell that convert food and oxygen into energy for use by the body. Recent news events have implicated mitochondria in at least one case of regressive autism, following normal development. Some researchers on the call reported that mitochondrial dysfunction is probably much more common than the current estimate of 1-in-4,000 people. The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering. “We need to find out if there is credible evidence, theoretically, to support the idea that childhood mitochondrial dysfunction might regress into autism,” one of the callers reportedly told participants. “THE CLOCK IS TICKING” One person on the call (those interviewed for this article asked to remain anonymous) told me that, “the CDC people were informed, in no uncertain terms, that they need to look into this issue immediately, and do something about it.” The clock is ticking, they were told, and if they don’t respond, the information would be made public! Continue

  103. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 2:47 am

    In the recent landmark Hannah Poling case, filed in Federal “Vaccine Court,” officials conceded that Hannah’s underlying mitochondrial dysfunction was aggravated by her vaccines, leading to fever and an “immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic reserves.” But on March 6, CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding claimed that Hannah’s case was a rare, virtually one-of-a-kind incident with little, if any relevance to the other 4,900 autism claims currently pending in the court — or to any other case of autism for that matter.(There were conflicting accounts about whether Gerberding was on the call or not). Since then, however, Dr. Gerberding and other CDC officials were made aware of a Portuguese study, published last October, which reported that 7.2% of children with autism had confirmed mitochondrial disorders. The authors also noted that, “a diversity of associated medical conditions was documented in 20%, with an unexpectedly high rate of mitochondrial respiratory chain disorders.” “Apparently, the Portuguese study really got their attention,” one of the participants said. “It’s a highly significant finding. And it’s worrisome enough to definitely look into. I think the CDC people know that.” They also know that some reports estimate the rate of mitochondrial dysfunction in autism to be20% or more. And the rate among children with the regressive sub-type of autism is likely higher still. Recently Hannahs parents were awarded $20 million dollars, for the damage that was caused by the 9 vaccines given on one day at one setting. The facts are that they the FDA and the CDC also AAP have damaged so so many children that the agencies have decided to lie to the public and manipulate the studies. And also to destroy damming information from the Vaccine Safety Data base that could implicate them in a cover up of the mass accidental Mercury poisoning of Hundreds of thousands of American children. Continued

  104. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 2:50 am

    Vaccine safety officials on the March 11 call may have been open to discussing mitochondria and autism, but they were probably highly unprepared for what was to come next. One doctor reported his findings from a five-year study of children with autism, who also showed clinical markers for impaired cellular energy, due to mild dysfunction of their mitochondria. The biochemistry of 30 children was studied intensively, and in each case, the results showed the same abnormalities as those found in Hannah Poling, participants said. Each child had moderate elevations or imbalances in the exact same amino acids and liver enzymes as Hannah Poling. All thirty children also displayed normal, healthy development until about 18-24 months of age, when they quickly regressed into clinically diagnosed autism (and not merely “features of autism”), following some type of unusual trigger, or stress, placed on their immune system. Researchers explained on the call that some data show that mitochondrial dysfunction can convert into autism “in numbers that make it not a rare occurrence,” one participant told me. They explained this as “a distinct syndrome; not a mixed bag at all. Every kid had mild mitochondria dysfunction and autistic regression.” By now you should be asking your self why is this not in the mainstream news, I will answer that. Most are afraid of losing their Pharma commercials if they tell the truth on the Vaccines causing Autism, CBS and just recently fox are the rare exception.

    Continued

  105. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:07 am

    I vaccinated at 27 mos. we held off till then, what you all are missing is that the children do not all get their vaccines at the same time. Some put it off like we did, then we vaccinate and instant regression occurs. If one thinks
    about the fact that we all vaccinate at different times, that in it’s self is a study proving the vaccines are the culprit. because regression is happening days after vaccines.

    Notice the statement about a stress or a unusual trigger at 18 mos to 24 mos, excuse me but the fact is that vaccines are given at that time. also they are known to cause tremendous stress, in some kids. And with a few minute search on the Net I found this little jewel about what is the most damaging to the Mitochondria, and was I shocked. To my surprise both are in the children’s vaccines. Inorganic Mercury and Vaccineal MSG, yes the most damaging compounds to the Mitochondria are both in our children’s vaccines. Let me explain how the preservative goes into the body as Thimerosal, as it travels through it turns into ethyl-Mercury. Then when it hits the Blood Brain Barrier (and according to a study done by a research that was paid for by the NIH found that Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the fish mercury done by Thomas Burbacher on baby primates) That is the exact opposite of what the CDC has been saying, in fact they are telling pregnant women to not eat the fish. But do go down and get two vaccines, that contain a Mercury that crosses the BBB easier than does the fish Mercury. And FYI all pregnant women reading this, next time you are at your Dr’s office and he or she try to get you to get the flu vaccines. Calmly ask them if they know what is on the MSDS Manufacturer Safety Data Sheet concerning Thimerosal and pregnant women. then ask why do you want me to put something in my body that the maker says I should never be exposed to? Then you quote the MSDS concerning Thimerosal, that it states that pregnant women are never supposed to be exposed to Thimerosal for it can cross the placenta and go into the baby and cause mild to severe mental retardation. He or she will suffer great embarrassment at first, then they will say you are mistaken. And most likely your office visit will suddenly be cut short, and you will be told politely to find another Dr.

  106. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:12 am

    Here’s the problem, if anybody try’s to stop the corruption the Pharma company’s pay them off with a job that pays millions. (Example below)

    A couple years ago, two Republicans on powerful committees switched sides shortly after they launched investigations into conflicts of interest between drug companies and employees at the NIH. Representative, WJ “Billy” Tauzin (R-La), was chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, and had cited “secret consulting fees and stock options from drug companies” as reasons to request documentation of all payments from Big Pharma to NIH scientists. But next thing you know, Tauzin announces that he is not running for reelection, and leaves Congress to become President of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the giant trade group that represents Big Pharma, with a reported $2 million a year in salary, benefits and perks. Next up to bat, was Representative James Greenwood (R-Pa), who led 3 hearings on NIH conflicts of interest and criticized the agency for allowing scientists to use “a swivel chair” to make decisions while taking drug company money. But low and behold, shortly thereafter, in July 2004, Rep Greenwood announced that he was giving up his post as chairman of the Energy and Commerce subcommittee to retire, only to become President of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, a group that in the same year, urged lawmakers not to bar NIH scientists from entering into paid consulting deals. A report by the Office of Government Ethics, released the same month that Rep Greenwood announced his “retirement,” said the NIH was beset by a “permissive culture,” and revealed that 40% of the 155 randomly selected sample payments to agency employees reviewed had not been approved or accounted for within the NIH.

    Continued

  107. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:17 am

    Everybody is on the take, Past Presidents,Congress, and Senate, FDA, and CDC, AAP, AMA, also the WHO with others to many to list. That is why we will never get control of health care cost,for they the Pharma Co’s have far surpassed the corruption of even organized crime. In fact I would go as far as to say, that they the pharmaceutical company’s have mastered the art of organized crime. This is the Country that so proudly announced to the world that we found Saddam Hussein hiding in a spider hole and we plan to have him tried for poisoning his own people. We did, and they hung him.
    For doing to his people, what the CDC has done for years here in the U.S. The Bible say’s before you remove the splinter in someone else’s eye first remove the Beam from your own eye. Saddam was bad, but the CDC is worse by far. For their job is to serve the people, not serve up the people. Which they do so masterfully, for they have no conscience to stop them….

  108. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:22 am

    This book reveals how the CDC manipulated the IOM to give them what they wanted.

    Oller and Oller’s book, “Autism: The Diagnosis, Treatment, & Etiology of the Undeniable Epidemic”, provides an invaluable history of duplicitous shenanigans by the CDC, IOM, FDA, AAP, and their eager mouthpieces in academia. Here’s an example. The book presents a damning factoid regarding the DPT’s adverse interaction with the MMR (citing Chen et al 1997) and reports that the CDC directed the IOM not to consider intra-human interactions between the MMR and thimerosal-containing vaccines. From Oller and Oller p120: “In reality, one of the earliest results of the VSD team was to show that combining the DPT vaccine (a thimerosal-containing vaccine) and the MMR vaccine increased the risk of a severe adverse reaction — a seizure within a narrow 30-day window – by 300% (Chen et al., 1997, p. 765 [here]).” In a different paper and prophetically, “viral interference” was mentioned as a MMR adversity factor in an important review by Wakefield & Montgomery 2000 (here) and, conceivably, may be augmented when the MMR and DPT are injected into a specific infant or toddler in close temporal proximity. However, despite these concerns – or perhaps because of them – in order for the CDC to shape “Prearranged Outcomes” (p124, Oller & Oller), the CDC decreed unto the IOM a crucial avoidance concerning the MMR and DPT: “When the eight Institute of Medicine panels were convened to examine how some component in a vaccine (thimerosal, the measles virus, aluminum, or whatever) related to autism, they were specifically directed by the CDC to steer clear of any interactions between different vaccines… For instance, [IOM] panel members were directed explicitly to avoid the interaction between the MMR vaccine and thimerosal vaccines.” Continued

  109. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:32 am

    If you trust these criminals with your kids after reading this,you should not
    have kids. Here is your science hard at work manipulating the IOM

    “When the eight Institute of Medicine panels were convened to examine how some component in a vaccine (thimerosal, the measles virus, aluminum, or whatever) related to autism, they were specifically directed by the CDC to steer clear of any interactions between different vaccines… For instance, [IOM] panel members were directed explicitly to avoid the interaction between the MMR vaccine and thimerosal vaccines.”

    From Oller and Oller p120: “In reality, one of the earliest results of the VSD team was to show that combining the DPT vaccine (a thimerosal-containing vaccine) and the MMR vaccine increased the risk of a severe adverse reaction — a seizure within a narrow 30-day window – by 300% (Chen et al., 1997, p. 765 [here]).” In a different paper and prophetically, “viral interference” was mentioned as a MMR adversity factor in an important review by Wakefield & Montgomery 2000 (here) and, conceivably, may be augmented when the MMR and DPT are injected into a specific infant or toddler in close temporal proximity. However, despite these concerns – or perhaps because of them – in order for the CDC to shape “Prearranged Outcomes” (p124, Oller & Oller), the CDC decreed unto the IOM a crucial avoidance concerning the MMR and DPT: “When the eight Institute of Medicine panels were convened to examine how some component in a vaccine (thimerosal, the measles virus, aluminum, or whatever) related to autism, they were specifically directed by the CDC to steer clear of any interactions between different vaccines… For instance, [IOM] panel members were directed explicitly to avoid the interaction between the MMR vaccine and thimerosal vaccines.” Indeed, the unreality of this proscription was noticed within the panel. The Ollers’ summary continues: “At one [IOM] panel meeting, Dr. Christopher Wilson had asked if it was even reasonable to look at those issues ‘in isolation’ because… ‘in the real world, they don’t occur in isolation. Individuals [i.e., infants and toddlers] that got the MMR vaccine also received vaccines with thimerosal.’ ” (p176) – - – - IMO, the Ollers’ book is important because they have presented facts and documentation which elucidate the process whereby by a “man-made epidemic” has been induced and continues to be covered-up by individuals in positions of presumed trust. Continued

  110. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 3:55 am

    Eight thousand, including Mothers Dads Grand Parents Teachers Congressman’s and Dr’s and Researchers Toxicologist also Nurses.

    Showed up in washington DC to say green our vaccines and administer them
    greater care.

    The battle cry of the day was, to many, to soon, with to many Toxins.

    We wanted to stop the corruption like this example below.

    “When the eight Institute of Medicine panels were convened to examine how some component in a vaccine (thimerosal, the measles virus, aluminum, or whatever) related to autism, they were specifically directed by the CDC to steer clear of any interactions between different vaccines… For instance, [IOM] panel members were directed explicitly to avoid the interaction between the MMR vaccine and thimerosal vaccines.”

    So who is anti-vaccine now?

    We have been accused of being crazy, who is more crazy someone trying
    to put Mercury into a child’s bloodstream. Or someone who is trying to stop
    someone from poisoning children??????

    Before you answer, remember God is watching your every move and knows your every thought. Now you can answer.

  111. joe
    October 9, 2010 at 4:01 am

    amy pisani ,why don’t you tell the parents who is on your board of dir.

    Vaccine makers

  112. Rita
    October 9, 2010 at 8:13 am

    Liz,
    My son was 3 years old, with solid developmental pathways when he received a contaminated DPT(I know it is no longer used in that form). Things keep changing all of the time, as certain vaccines have trends of issues, and the scientists identify the problem and correct it. They just dont share the information with the parents, as they dont want to jeopardize the public health policy, when parents should be informed about the potential for injury, serious injuries, that DO happen.
    I am an ER nurse, I have seen a number of children have issues with in days of vaccines, I also see doc’s right away brush off the vaccines and point in another direction. They do it all the time. While most children tolderate vaccines fine….The population of those who have some sort of issue is growing and growing…as for the blogs , and the poor attempts….at best…to make people think the “autism community” are back on board with vaccination, when they , clearly , are not.
    The schedule, at present, is ridiculous, and for any one to get on board with even accepting the ridiculousness….they need cut it way back, and offer every citizen the CHOICE as to weather they want to take the risks associated with vaccination.
    It is working against you in a big way though, as large trends of people not vaccinating, have children with the most impeccible health. Since the CDC and Big Pharma wont financially benefit from non- vaccination, they wont do the study. Many other studies out there are showing that unvaccinated children, are almost never sick (those in deveolped countries). Lots of attempts made to disprove this, but larger and larger groups keep prooving it over and over by their lack of autism, ADHD, asthmas, and chronic ear infections, with in the large groups of unvaccinated kids.
    When medical proceedures are involved, parents deserve choices…period!

  113. Kelly
    October 9, 2010 at 10:51 am

    Ok I had Whooping cough as a kid, you know what my parents did? They put be in the bathroom and ran a hot shower and the steam helped me to get better. I also had measles and chickenpox. Please people get off your soapboxes about ‘The deadly disease’ I would much much rather have all 3 then have my child not be able to talk to me. REALLY.

  114. October 9, 2010 at 11:17 am

    You were lucky. Other kids have died. It is unfortunate that you are unable to consider others’ experiences and health, which is what we are advocating here.

  115. October 9, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Rita, again, we are not saying vaccines are 100% without risk, nor are we are saying the risks are minimal, especially compared to the public health risks of not vaccinating our kids due to autism fears — fears that study after study after study have proved are unfounded.

    It sounds as though you believe your child had a legitimate vaccine injury. There are/were channels for establishing such injuries as legitimate. And I do hope you can find a way to channel your passion and anger into activism that will benefit your child in the here and now, rather than trying to undermine the health of other peoples’ children — which is what you are effectively doing.

  116. October 9, 2010 at 11:43 am

    There are reasons that the Hannah Poling case is not relevant in the context of autism. http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2008/03/deadly-history.html

    Certainly, the mitochondrial disorder field requires more research and better ways of identifying people with such disorders, although that alone is quite complex given the variability in heritability of mitochondria with and without dysfunction, as has occurred in the Hannah Poling case.

  117. October 9, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Hello. I’d like to thank the person who tries to keep this forum civil & I’m sorry I don’t remember your name as I am very busy & can only speed read these comments for now. My head is so full that I’m overwhelmed in the frustration knowing, daily, unsuspecting parents are having their children jabbed, not realizing their chance of injury or disease later in life have much better odds than winning the lottery.

    I also thank who ever is responsible for not allowing any of us to be censored. That says a lot.

    I am a Grandmother, worried about all children who uses a crying eagle as my picture who weeps for America & all countries who have been harmed by our crazy vaccination practice.

    Do you know that in the Roman Empire era they made neurological cripples of the people by transporting water in lead pipes which is the equivalent to what we are doing today with vaccinations? We are in the last stages just like the fall of the empire & soon we will be coming out of the dark ages as truth to this matter is becoming wide spread.

    Vaccines were not even in the picture before death from disease was on it’s decline which can be researched by looking up, “proof vaccines didn’t save us”

    I saw where one called my organization a conspiracy site. Maybe that was because of the link I placed here to our political forum where the left, right & center are battling & sometimes people do post far out matters of dubious nature. I assure you our activist community has nothing to do with false conspiracy but fact, indeed.

    I have replaced that link, here, with our activist group link, both of which have had their focus changed to saving our children from harm for profit as our home & description pages explain.

    When I founded our groups, almost eight years ago, I thought we failed because our people could not put differences aside enough to accomplish much of anything because of the political labels that divided us.

    Little did I know that was just a practice run for what was to come & the creation of a network so huge that when the flood gates are opened, which will be very soon, we will take this matter by storm & the wrath of our parents, activists & world citizens will shake the very foundation of the world & all the criminals whose time has come to its end.

    This cause is the very one that has the power to bring all people together, no matter their political views or religious beliefs.

    We are genuine in our concern for children being hurt by harmful drugs, many toxins & especially vaccines let loose on them by the very agencies, like the FDA, that were supposed to be protecting us but instead are in bed with the criminal who are trying to continue the atrocity & cover up of vaccinations.

    I do not hide as the person who tries to deceive saying we are conspiracy theorists, my name & even where I live has been out there for years so this person is very misinformed or, at least, trying to misinform everyone else.

    I have a lot to share so I will need several comments to do so. I will be back.

  118. October 9, 2010 at 11:46 am

    Joe…do you have a specific set of points to make with some scientific data to back them up? What you’re cutting and pasting is disjointed and incredibly difficult to parse.

    God is welcome to watch my moves. As I stated before, my sole goal is education and help. I have no connections with Big Pharma or any related entity whatsoever. But, as long as God is watching, I will do what I can to counter irrationality with reason and evidence so that children’s lives–their *lives*, as in…they remain alive–are not threatened further by the widespread misinformation campaign about vaccines that began, I’ll remind everyone, with a little retracted paper by a man who recently had his license yanked.

  119. October 9, 2010 at 11:49 am

    You clearly have never watched an infant die while trying desperately to suck in a breath as their ribs crack. That’s what pertussis does to infants. And is it of no interest whatsoever that measles kills literally hundreds of thousands of children–they’re dead, there’s no talking from them or hope of it, REALLY–every year? Measles encephalitis robs a child of more than you’ll ever think autism does. How about polio? What do you think your parents could have done for you for that? Diphtheria?

    It is heartbreaking, I know, when your child cannot communicate with you in a way that you desperately desire, but is it or is it not more heartbreaking for millions of families whose children *die* from *preventable* diseases? We refer to these diseases as deadly because They. Kill. People.

  120. October 9, 2010 at 11:55 am

    I reject any assertions of a conspiracy theory related to vaccines. It’s nonsensical to think that hundreds of thousands of scientists, public health officials, federal regulators, doctors, and pharmaceutical developers *worldwide* would somehow be in collusion to…and this IS what you’re accusing them of doing…to HARM and KILL children wantonly, with total disregard for anything but money. It’s insupportable hysteria driven by emotion words typed in ALL CAPS with no foundation and no rational mechanism.

    I’ve blogged the sheer volume of conspirators that would be required for a single arm of this alleged conspiracy to persist uncovered here:

    http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/05/mapping-conspiracy-against-wakefield.html

    It’s absolutely unreasonable and unsupportable, and frankly, paranoid.

  121. October 9, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Joe, given that the people who develop vaccines are, in fact, experts in vaccines, it is common sense for them to be on the board of a vaccine initiative.

  122. October 9, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    My story of harm to my Grandchildren is mild compared to most & can be read on the Fox & Friend’s reporters Facebook page along with hundreds of others.

    http://www.facebook.com/AlisynCamerota

    My Granddaughter has just been vaccinated against our wishes & harmed, again, so we can only hope we won’t be joining the ranks of the many, 1 in 100 or maybe worse by now as the figures grows consistently, of those with severe neurological disorders so many have succumbed to in their own personal hell & living nightmares.

    I would like to address the person who claims aluminum in vaccines is harmless & tries to back that up by saying there’s more in breast milk which is the same ridiculous claim they use with the mercury found in fish myth.

    Speaking of mercury & aluminum, take a look at this experiment & hold on to your hats because this will blow you mind>>>

    Don’t buy the bull that the mercury in thimerosal is different & this horrible reaction is not the same because it’s all the same base & not true at all as any real scientist will tell you.

    If we’re to be scientific here it needs to be understood injecting & ingesting are two completely different matters as Dr. Sears says here in this fair & balanced interview on the Fox & Friends show as he explains the difference between ingesting & injecting that bypasses the stomach which is able to remove the toxins where injecting can’t be removed so easily>>>

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/4357414/vaccines-bad-combination/?playlist_id=86892

    I have never been a Fox fan but if they continue to tell the truth & help save the children, I will definitely become one.

  123. October 9, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    This is great. I don’t know how this fraud of a doctor can sleep at night, knowing the ignorance he showed the world in this recent exposure he fell into>>>

    “Fox News Doctor Gets Schooled By Mother Of Child With Autism”

  124. October 9, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    I’m not sure what you mean by “ridiculous claim” regarding mercury in fish. Mercury is accumulated in fat and magnified the higher up in the food chain it goes, so that fatty fish are laden with it, to the detriment of people who consume it. The route of exposure for these people is ingestion, certainly, and the mercury differs. It’s not relevant here. But it is a serious problem that has serious effects. Anyone interested in more information can start here: http://epa.gov/mercury/advisories.htm

    The stomach’s main role is not about removing toxins. First-pass metabolism takes place in the hepatic portal (the liver). That’s the role of the liver. And it’s often the goal with a therapeutic that it *does* bypass first-pass metabolism, as processing in the liver will alter efficacy or even effect. Does Sears argue that people should swallow their vax, instead? If the argument is that the oral route differs from the injected route, yes…it does…and yes, toxicologists have examined all routes of exposure to mercuric compounds–oral, topical, injected, inhaled. They do know the differences and they know the effects of the different forms of mercury and how they’re biometabolized. Not all forms of mercury are the same in their biological effect, no more so than both enantiomers of thalidomide were the same…as we discovered too late. Sears, who is not a toxicologist, still likely understands these fairly basic issues, so I can’t say whether he’s being disingenuous here or not. I note here that he is selling a book based on his claims. Looks like he’s a shill for himself. Whom do you trust?

    You call the aluminum claim “ridiculous,” but produce no science to back that up. That “ridiculous” claim comes from scientific studies. So…you’re going to have to produce some to counter it.

    Using scary metal words doesn’t somehow make the fear founded. Selenium is a (semi)metal. Bet some readers here have taken selenium supplements. I wouldn’t do that, but that’s just me. Calcium is a metal. So are iron and zinc, of course, and perfectly capable of being toxic. But selenium and calcium and iron and zinc just aren’t as scary as words as mercury and aluminum are, I suppose. The bottom line in toxicology is that the dose and the exposure route and the specific form of the molecule are what defines it as toxic or not. The name alone does not define toxicity.

    Speaking of which, there is a huge distinction between methyl mercury and ethyl mercury. A single addition or removal of an atom does matter. For example, H2O is generally OK to drink. H2O2, not so much.

    Finally…why is anyone talking about mercury or thimerosal? Still haven’t gotten an answer to that. This entire vaccines = autism garbage began with a now-retracted paper by a now-disgraced researcher that claimed a link between MMR and autism. MMR never had thimerosal. So…which is it? MMR or thimerosal? If the latter, why are we talking about it, as it is no longer present in any vaccine a child receives on the vaccine schedule and was scarcely present in them to begin with?

    Just read this interesting quote in Newsweek, and it strikes me as relevant here: “People have a great capacity to engage in what’s called ‘motivated reasoning.’ If you have a strongly held belief with an emotional component, the brain defends information that reinforces those ‘priors’ and is skeptical of information that challenges them.”

  125. October 9, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Also, I don’t watch videos online, especially from Fox. Links to scientific papers and findings or to sources that contain those links are needed here.

  126. October 9, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Citizens do have a choice regarding their vaccine schedule, but there is zip in the way of scientific evidence to support any necessity of changing the schedule as it stands now. That said, I’m sure Dr. Sears is enjoying his royalties from people who see this idea as prima facie commonsensical. People thought that about the miasma hypothesis of disease for several hundred years, too, but it was anything but correct.

  127. October 9, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    We are trying to book some of our people in the medical field on Fox. We would like to see Fox & Friends hold a fair debate, very soon. First, we need more real interviews like Alisyn did with Dr. Sears.

    Unlike that bogus “Vaccine Wars” program Frontline did on PBS. where they omitted the in depth interview they did with Dr. Jay Gordon.

    Also, unlike the biased & one sided show Matt Lauer aired as part of the orchestrated witch hunt against Doctor Andrew Wakefield.

    The storm Matt created with his bogus interview is still raging on his wall as the parents of injured children set the record straight>>>

    http://www.facebook.com/NBCMattLauer

    Dr. Jay Gordon’s article at the following link is very informative. He’s just one of many doctors who are speaking out in big ways in truth to this matter. Up until now all these voices have been ignored & stifled.

    NO MORE! As Dr. Wakefield said in that ambush of an interview on the Today Show Matt pulled on him. He said, “None of us are going away” & our numbers grow us stronger everyday.

    “We The People” of the world are standing with the angry & frantic parents & we will win this war waged & raged against our children for posterity.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-gordon/pbs-frontline-show-about_b_554691.html

  128. October 9, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I see I am being challenged & I am sorry for the person who says they refuse to watch video’s or listen to what is being said on Fox. As I said, I haven’t been a fan either but if they’re going to help us tell the truth, I’m with them. I am sorry this person refuses to see the facts & limits their learning & understanding in such a way because that does nothing to help get to the bottom of this atrocity & cover up. I have more evidence to present & after that, we can debate if you like but first, I want to have my say.

  129. October 9, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    “10 years from now we will know that the biggest crime against humanity was vaccines.” — Dr.
    Guylaine Lanctot

    See many wise voices of doctors & scientists who have been trying to wanr us but voices have been stifled & ignored until now>>>

    “DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION”

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

    My favorite>>>

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    I have compiled a list of doctors who stand with us today to add to these wise voices from the past & will attempt to place that information here. This is just a start & a very long list already. Many more good doctors will be joining our ranks, soon, because our people are educating them, in deed.

    They will pick up the pieces of the mess the mad scientists in white coats left in their stay as they did the bidding of their puppet masters who love money more than children.

  130. October 9, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    As for other doctors who stand on the side of truth with us, the following is just the tip of the iceberg.

    This is just a rough draft of what I’ve collected so far that will be written into an article. These are only the high profile doctors so who’s to say how many small town doctors are wise now & stand with us?

    Here we go;

    Dr. Blaylock is a board certified neurosurgeon, author & lecturer. Dr. Alan Cantwell has investigated the phenomenon of cancer bacteria for over thirty years. A graduate of New York Medical College.

    What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Childrens Vacinations, by Stephanie Cave, MD, FAAFP.

    Judy Converse MPH RD, LD, Michael Cuccaro PhD, associate professor of human genetics at the University of Miami, Dr. Bill Deagle MD is a Prolife physician. He has been a board certified Family Medicine Specialist, board eligible Occupational and Environmental Medicine,

    Dr. Douglass is editor of The Douglass Report, a monthly newsletter that reveals the truth about the latest Junk Medicine Myths.

    Lauren Feder, M.D. is a nationally recognized physician who specializes in holistic health/Flu Prevention for the Family, Naturally.

    Dr. Peter Fletcher, former Chief Science Advisor for the UK department of Health ?”There are very powerful people in positions of great authority in Britain and elsewhere who have staked their reputations and careers on the safety of MMR and they are willing to do almost anything to protect themselves.” ?”It is entirely possible that the immune systems of a small minority simply cannot cope with the challenge of the three live viruses in the MMR jab, and the ever-increasing vaccine load in general.”

    Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor at the University of Kentucky, chair of chem dept since 1996. He has investigated the effect of mercury on tissues and published on similarities between these and some biochemical changes reported in nerve cells in Alzheimer’s dz & autism. Haley was one of the first researchers to propose that thimerosal in vaccines was the most likely toxic agent involved in Gulf War syndrome and autism spectrum disorders.

    Dr. Tedd Koren is the most widely read Doctor of Chiropractic in the world today with over 50 million of his popular scientifically referenced patient education brochures in distribution.

    Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Dr. Teresa Forcades, specialed in internal medicine, Dr. Mark R. Geier, M.D., Ph.D. is a geneticist & President of the Genetic Centers of America.

    Dr. Gary S Goldman, Board Certified Physician, Dr. Jay Gordon, Nationally renowned pediatrician & Assistant Professor of Pediatrics, UCLA Medical School, Thomas Insel, MD, Director, NIMH.

    Dr. Beatrice Golomb,Professor of Medicine at UCSD. Her research is in medicine, health (including work at RAND), military health defense. Her training is in physics and medicine (BS, graduate fellowship offers from Harvard and Cal Tech, PhD in neurobiology UCSD, MD from UCSD and board certified in Internal Medicine, chief resident in internal medicine at the VA in West LA, and a Fellowship in epidemiology/health services research with the RAND/UCLA Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholarship Program.) She currently divides her time between being PI on a major NIH-funded clinical trial on the side effects of statins, the Scientific Director of the Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Illnesses and clinical practice.

    Dr Tom Jefferson. Influenzae. Reviewer, Cochrane Acute Respiratory Infections Group & Cochrane Vaccines Field.

    Bryan Jepson, M.D. is the Director of the Medical Center at Thoughtful House Center for Children. He said;
    “I looked at the research, largely to prove to my wife that the theory was unfounded And before long, I realized that this theory of a vaccine-autism link wasn’t driven by the whims of angry activists or the wallets of vitamin manufacturers. Rather, it was based on real science with a strong foundation of biological plausibility…” (from his book “Changing the Course of Autism” – p. 3-4) Jerry Kartzinel, MD, FAAP, Dr. Guylaine Lanctot, Dr. Warren Levin. Rima E. Laibow, M.D, Ian Lipkin MD, Stephen Marini, PhD, DC, Immunologist, Microbiologist & Adjunct Professor. Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D, Dr. Mercola, Dr, Andrew Mouldenm, Epidemiologist Craig J. Newschaffer, PhD, Harvard/Johns Hopkins.

    Dr. Gary Null who has multiple great documentaries & is on location right now filming a motion picture. His master piece which wakes more people to truth than any other filmed effort is “Vaccine Nation-The Directors Cut.

    Dr. Lawrence Palevsky, Board Certified Pediatricianand Fellow, American Academy of Pediatrics, Epidemiologist Irva Hertz-Picciotto, MPH, PhD, (UC Berkeley/UC Davis MIND institute).

    Irva Hertz-Picciotto, Ph.D., M.P.H. Professor, Department of Public Health Sciences, School of Medicine.

    Jon S. Poling, PhD, MD, board-certified neurologist, Dr. Mark Sawyer, Robert Sears, MD, Dr. Viera Scheibner, PHD,

    Chris Shaw, PhD who is a neuroscientist & is assistant professor, ophthalmology, physiology & experimental medicine with the University of British Columbia Faculty of Medicine.

    Michael Sichel, DO, ND, PhD, Dr. Simmons, John Snow Professor of Epidemiology & Professor of Neurology & Pathology at Columbia University, the nation’s top autism research coordinator & Chair of the federal government’s Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee.

    Carol Stott, MSc, PhD,An epidemiologist who also writes about the scientific studies relating to Dr. Wakefield’s work.

    Dr. Sherri Tenpenny is one of the most outspoken physicians in the country on the hazards of vaccines and vaccination.

    Dr Paul Thomas MD Pediatrician, FAAP, Renee Tocco, DC
    Chiropractic Physician & Practitioner, HFA Doctor, Defeat Autism Now!

    Dr. WAKEFIELD speaks for himself as the witch hunt orchestrated against him goes on. A real American Hero, this one.

    Kurt N. Woeller, D.O., Dr. Woeller has been a referral physician for the Autism Research Institute and Defeat Autism Now!

    “We The People” of the world are standing with these doctors & the angry & frantic parents & we will win this war waged & raged against our children for posterity.

  131. October 9, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    Marsha, I too am a grandmother. In fact, I had the Tdap before the youngest was born.

    I don’t doubt the depth of your love for your grandchild or your passion on the issue of vaccine safety. I fear, however, that your passion has mislead you.

    Where we differ is in evaluating the evidence, for quality and for quantity.

  132. October 9, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Now, as for the doctors who stand against us & truth.

    Science Based Medicine is a fraud. They use the same writers & skepdocs & have about a dozen sites affiliated with them who do the same against anything that might cut into the profit of those they represent.

    They know we have their number & can back up, easily, how & why those fraudulent doctors & sources they tout have been discredited with so many real facts so the truth can’t be denied?

    I will attempt to place that undeniable mountain of evidence here. It is well known by now but I will show it all again for those who might not know.

    Here is just one of the latest articles on these perpetrators of deception & I will place the rest in the next comment for your review>>>

    http://gaia-health.com/articles251/000277-quackbusters-are-busted.shtml#comments

    Those who represent profit of big business who call themselves, Quackbusters are the same writers & docs that make up Science Based Medicine which is the main defence the pro vax side of this issue has.

    They are very well known for being the true quacks, themselves.

    I find it amazing & ironic they use a duck dressed up as Sherlock Holmes for their Mascot. Kind of Freudian & telling, too, don’t you think?

  133. Janine
    October 9, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Emily shot herself in the foot by saying “What I wrote about has nothing to do with autism” In that comment I was referring to microbes and there is scientific papers (non medical) which point to high levels of measles antibodies in the body of those with autism. I read a paper that the Rubella component of MMR is a probable pathogenesis of autism as those with autism lack this antibody even though they have been jabbed with the MMR jab.

    In response to the comment about Selenium (as someone with an interest in biometals as well) Yeah selenium and calcium and semi/full metals but the body uses it in normal bodily functions and dimished Se levels can be a factor in cancer? whereas mercury and aluminium (an interesting one as one upon a time, the body used Al and wasn’t toxic. Now it is a toxic substance) There is a difference to metals a body uses and has in its body for its normal day to day running and the body havi9ng an excess of metals which have no need to be in the body in the first place!!

  134. October 9, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Dear Marsha,
    I think you misread what ejwillingham’s intent. She is a scientist and has a sense of the hierarchy of evidence in scientific discussions. Vaccine efficacy and safety can only be discussed in the context of science. There’s an accepted hierarchy of evidence:

    * Class I evidence: Prospective randomised controlled trials (RCT), the gold standard of clinical trials.
    * Class II evidence: Prospective observational studies, cohort, prevalence and case control studies (including retrospective analysis based on clearly reliable data).
    * Class III evidence: including retrospective clinical series, databases / registry, case reports and expert opinion.

    A short, televised debate between two people just doesn’t get in the door, in terms of scientific evidence.

    Andrew Wakefield lost all scientific credibility years ago, capped by his removal from the UK list of doctors.

    Jay Gordon is, in my interactions with him, personally warm and charming. However, Dr. Gordon’s scientific acumen leaves a lot to be desired. He is not a research scientist and does not admit to his shortcomings in the field of understanding immunology and vaccinology.

  135. October 9, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Thank you Liz. I can respect your view even though I do not agree with your understanding because I know you believe what you have been told. I, too, was just like you & wish vaccines had merit but they don’t as the evidence proves with the great numbers of child victims & the many adults that have gone to early graves. The trade off was not worth it. Immune systems were created to do the job vaccines pretend & have caused much harm in compromising & shutting down the wonderfuol immune systems that were well able, in most every case, unlike vaccines, to protect & make us stronger by allowing childhood disease to run it’s course.

    I hope you will investigate both sides to come to an educated conclusion so you, too, don’t fall victim to what so many others have.

    I meant to post this back with my discussion on mercury & aluminum & that horrid experiment that gives one the idea of the damage done to babies fragile brains so I’m placing it here before I forget>>>

    ‎”New study shows aluminium adjuvants may cause brain damage even at the “low” doses that are currently found in many vaccines.

    Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits & motor neuron degeneration”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/pdf/nihms171746.pdf

    Next, I will show you what vaccines have done with the many epidemics of disease that we are up against that makes disease of the past seem mild when you actually pay attention to what’s really what.

  136. October 9, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Dear Marsha,

    I can respect your view even though I do not agree with your understanding because I know you believe what you have been told.

    emphasis added
    This is exactly where we diverge. I’ve actually read the studies and evaluated the evidence myself. Happily, although I do not have a post-graduate degree in science, I do have enough training to evaluate evidence from scientific studies.

    Immune systems were created to do the job vaccines pretend

    Here again we diverge. The wonder of science is that vaccines do in fact stimulate the immune system to mount a response to a disease challenge, more safely than experiencing the disease itself.

    To be clear: I am not arguing that vaccines are perfect. I am arguing that the overwhelming weight of the evidence is that being vaccinated against a given disease is safer, overall, that acquiring the disease itself.

    I hope you will investigate both sides to come to an educated conclusion so you, too, don’t fall victim to what so many others have.

    I have actually read a great many of the anti-vaccination sites and publications and found them wanting in scientific rigor.

  137. October 9, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    I see, twice now, the truth about epidemcs caused by vaccines, for some reason, has not shown up. Maybe it was because of so many links? I hope it does show when I look in again. I am going to give everyone a break from the mountain of truth I bring but first want to add a mention to the epidemic of cancer that’s among all that proof of so many other epidemics we are up against. In fact, take any disease you can think of & look it up like this in any search engine of your choice>>>

    “any disease and epidemic”, to see for yourself.

    Here’s a fact. I experienced this just the other day as I heard a conversation between an old couple & their doctor.

    The elderly man said to the doc that there’s just so much cancer everywhere. He was having a prostrate problem. He said. “I never seen cancer in my day. It’s just everywhere”

    As the doctor was trained he used the same talking points & rhetoric they were taught to use. He said, “We have media now & that’s the reason it seems that way. It’s always been around & it’s just that we heard about it all the time like we do now.

    Even the old people laughed at the doctor when he left. Do they think we’re stupid? I guess. We know seeing with our own eyes & hearing with our own ears of so many all around us with cancer has been on an increase, like a freight train running us over. We never saw this years ago. I’m at least twenty years younger than those old people & I noticed it too. Just as all the rest of you who have been paying attention.

    Media has nothing to do with it.

    “There is an epidemic of cancer today. One in three Americans will be diagnosed with cancer, often before the age of 65.”

    Doctors have been trained to deny any increase by claiming media responsible for bringing attention to it but we know that’s not true because we have witnessed the facts all around us with our own ears & eyes as people we know are being struck in great numbers everywhere.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/opinion/19iht-edservan.1.16308287.htmlSee More

    This is the same denial they are trained to use to take heat off of the damage vaccines do that adds insult to injury for the frantic & desperate parents who know very well what happened to their children after vaccination.

  138. October 9, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Dear Marsha,
    Your post above is just a series of fallacious attacks on Steven Barrett and the writers of Science Based Medicine.

    anything that might cut into the profit of those they represent.

    That’s the pharma-shill gambit, a version of both the ad hominem fallacy and the “poisoning the well” fallacy. It’s a slur, not evidence. You don’t even go to the effort of providing evidence that the physicians who publish at Science-Based Medicine are in fact paid by pharmaceutical companies.

    In reference to Science Based Medicine, the website, you go on to write:

    main defence the pro vax side of this issue has.

    You are incorrect. Science-Based Medicine is just the website that has the highest page ranking in terms of refuting anti-vaccination claims. A little more work will go on to find many other publications of the dead-tree sort and online that refute anti-vaccination claims.

  139. October 9, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Re posts taking a while to appear. Some of my previous link-heavy posts have taking quite a while (hours) to post. It’s not about you or the arguments you are making, it is about the links.

  140. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    A poster upthread has listed a number of “doctors and scientists” who oppose vaccinations. In case a casual reader happens upon this list and is tempted to be impressed—don’t be. Few of these individuals have any scientific credibility.

    Case in point: Dr. Sherri Tenpenny.

    Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist. She sells vitamins and supplements on her Vaccine Information website, which gives her an incentive to distort the truth and spread misinformation. She rails against avian protein in the flu shot (it’s incubated in an egg) while failing to mention that the homeopathic flu remedy she sells on her website is made by using a piece of liver from a decapitated duck and mixing it with pancreatic juice and glucose.

    Here’s what she says on her website about her own qualifications:

    Dr. Sherri Tenpenny is respected as one of the country’s most knowledgeable and outspoken physicians regarding the impact of vaccines on health. As a member of the prestigious National Speaker’s Association, Dr. Tenpenny is an outspoken advocate for free choice in healthcare, including the right to refuse vaccination.

    Well, no she’s not. If you’re going to call yourself an expert on vaccines and vaccine-preventable diseases, you should probably have training in infectious disease or immunology and you should probably have published significant research. She hasn’t. Dr. Tenpenny is an osteopath who hasn’t practiced in many, many years. And being “a member of the prestigious National Speakers Association” only means that you are a member of an association of public speakers; it says nothing about your qualifications to speak on any particular topic. No physician with real medical expertise would list something like that rather than, say, their medically-related qualifications.

    And there’s more.

    In a decision filed on June 15, 2010—Vervzer v. HHS, US Court of Federal Claims, No. 06-0522V—Special Master Abell found that Dr. Tenpenny didn’t have the expertise to give the opinion that was offered in the case and that, even if she did have the qualifications, her opinion was not reliable. The special master found that Dr. Tenpenny’s report “is thoroughly worthless to the Court, and is not helpful enough, not relevant enough, to be admissible, considering the strong arguments against its admissibility.”

    I’ve provided this info not for Marsha’s benefit—she’s obviously unreachable—but for the benefit of others who might be tempted to think her sources are reliable or credible.

  141. October 9, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    If that’s true, Liz, then you have a whole lot more research to do because the evidence to the facts are in the great numbers of child victims that have rose right in step with the increase in vaccinations through time. Proof is proof & the truth ca no longer be denied.

  142. October 9, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Dear Marsha,

    Doctors have been trained to deny any increase by claiming media responsible for bringing attention

    Please provide evidence in the form of textbooks, curricula from medical school, curricula continuing education seminars, or publications in peer-reviewed journals.

    Otherwise you are just voicing an opinion.

  143. October 9, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Liz said>>>

    “Re posts taking a while to appear. Some of my previous link-heavy posts have taking quite a while (hours) to post. It’s not about you or the arguments you are making, it is about the links.”

    Thank you, Liz. I had hoped that was the case because those epidemics are very telling & it’s important everyone sees them.

  144. October 9, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    I was trying to give all of you a break from so much evidence so you could take it in & not be overwhelmed so I tried to relax myself & get my mind off of all the matter running through my mind but couldn’t do it.

    My mind drifted to what Liz said about having read all the studies & would like to address the facts to that matter.

    We were glad to see Alisyn on Fox & Friends expose Poul Thorsen who ran off with that 2 million dollars in research money. The pro vaccination side insists on backing those Danish studies & even resort to claiming Thorsen had nothing to do with them when everyone knows he was in charge & the head researcher in that department.

    “Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

    “Statement regarding Dr. Poul Thorsen’s involvement in Aarhus University projects”

    http://tinyurl.com/34tp856

    “This statement confirms Thorsen’s “primary scientific and administrative oversight” of the CDC Denmark project, a collaboration involving studies which found against a mercury-autism connection. It also confirms the disappearance of funds and that “Aarhus University will not be able to collaborate with Poul Thorsen in the future.”

    Okay, now let’s talk about the studies some more.

  145. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Marsha, even if Thorsen is the most horrible guy in the world and really did run off with 2 million dollars in research money . . . how would that negate the accuracy of the studies he’s participated in?

    You seem to implying that vaccine-autism research (and not just that by Dr. Thorsen) is performed by corrupt individuals and should therefore not be trusted. Is that your intent? If not, could you please clarify?

  146. October 9, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Dear Marsha,

    the evidence to the facts are in the great numbers of child victims that have rose right in step with the increase in vaccinations through time.

    You are referring to several of related ideas here:
    (a)Incidence vs. prevalence
    (b)Correlation vs. causation
    (c) The matter of diagnosis and service provision
    *****
    (a)Incidence is the number of newly diagnosed cases of a condition. An incidence rate is the number of new cases of a condition divided by the number of persons at risk for the condition. Prevalence, on the other hand, the total number of cases of a condition existing in a population at a given moment in time.
    ******
    (b)correlation in statistics, a single number that describes the degree of relationship between two variables. Correlation can be both positive and negative. However, correlation between two variable says nothing about the degree of causation. A careful thinker has to go farther to prove that an increase in variable A caused an increase in variable B.
    *****
    (c) The matter of diagnosis and service provision. Since the subject of this post is autism, we have to consider that the diagnostic criteria for autism have changed radically since 1980, when it first entered the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. There are very strong arguments that the reported increases in autism (both incidence and prevalence) result from a combination diagnostic expansion and diagnostic substitution. It wasn’t until 1990 that schools were required to educate and serve children with autism.
    *****
    Marsha claims that one variable, the increase in vaccinations caused the increase in another variable, numbers of child victims. I hope she can provide an increase in evidence as well.

  147. October 9, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Let’s look at the track record of those who bring us vaccination, now, concering those studies.

    First, I want to say that science is to be commended in many ways but it is time to admit error & begin to right the wrongs, NOW! I’m not screaming, I’m emphasising.

    Science has made giant strides in the medical field but man’s obsessive compulsion to mess with Mother Nature & greed has caused more harm than good in the case of vaccinations. The mad scientists in white coats must stop being the puppets for special interests & step aside to allow the honest among them to pick up the pieces & carry on.

    How can we be expected to believe studies when we, now, know all about the shenanigans & fraud that’s become so widespread, world wide?

    The fraud has even been recently reported in the news.

    CNN reported a several months ago that Dr. Scott Reuben, a researcher, admitted in court to faking dozens of studies for Pfizer, Merck;

    http://tinyurl.com/ycbnhra

    “It’s become common practice for drug companies to support fraudulent studies & they openly supported Dr. Reuben’s research & in fact, paid him to keep on fabricating them.”

    Oh, I almost forgot about this & this one involves vaccines & being caught red handed>>>

    “UK General Medical Council Told Docs “Commit Fraud for MMR Vaccine Bonuses”

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/gmc-fraud-for-bonuses/

    Then, this just recently reported in the news, too, “GlaxoSmithKline deliberately hid evidence of Avandia harm, says Senate report”

    http://tinyurl.com/ybxdyrw

    Added to massive evidence found by a search as I said before using, “faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them”, leaves no room for doubt as to the magnitude of deception that’s been pulling the wool over our people’s eyes, world wide..

    I’ll post some articles that pop up for your convenience, next, if I’m allowed by the software of this program & this won’t even be the tip of the iceberg.

  148. October 9, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Marsha, your argument boils down to this:
    1. The evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccines derives from scientific research
    2. Some scientific researchers commit fraud and report made-up results.
    3. Therefore, all the scientific research that supports the safety and efficacy of vaccines can and should be thrown out.

    Your argument doesn’t hold water.

  149. October 9, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Marsha, you wrote:

    I was trying to give all of you a break from so much evidence so you could take it in & not be overwhelmed

    1. You haven’t posted any evidence yet, just third-hand or worse news reports. You’ve posted exactly one link to a peer-reviewed paper which is irrelevant to the safety and efficacy of routine childhood vaccinations.
    2. You are assuming that, we, the readers of this blog have not been keeping up to date with actual evidence — that you are about to post things that are new to us. Not so.

  150. October 9, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Amy’s affiliations — transparent and legitimate as they are — have no bearing on this essay. I originally wrote it for BlogHer.com, then rewrote it for The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism sixteen months later — after landslides of scientific evidence and the Wakefield retractions/medical de-licensing and pertussis epidemic necessitated an update. And *then* Amy & crew asked if they could republish it.

  151. October 9, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Marsha’s comments require me to rephrase my response to the first comment on this thread:

    ‘This is not much of a debate, as my position is “research demonstrates,” and yours is “I don’t believe you.”’

  152. October 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    @ Tom. You can tell the people all you want to ignore all those many wise voices of scientists & doctors & try to discredit a few as you attempted but, thankfully, our people are smart enough to recognize truth when they see & hear it.

    There’s just too many of them for that to work, you know, Tom.

    When the pro vaccine side goes to extremes in trying to discredit these wonderfully vocal & good doctors as they do, it says more about the truth than they would like as it comes shining through for all to see who are actually looking for what’s real & what’s not.

  153. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Marsha, based on their respective qualifications, someone like Paul Offit would seem to be much a much more credible source of information about vaccines than Sherri Tenpenny. Could you explain why you find Tenpenny to be more believable than Offit? Is it simply because she repeats back for you what you already believe? Or what?

    Specifically, what did I say about Tenpenny that isn’t true?

  154. October 9, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    And Liz says>>>

    “Dear Marsha,

    Doctors have been trained to deny any increase by claiming media responsible for bringing attention

    Please provide evidence in the form of textbooks, curricula from medical school, curricula continuing education seminars, or publications in peer-reviewed journals.

    Otherwise you are just voicing an opinion.”

    No opinion to it, Liz. It’s fact.

    You must be young. If you can’t use your own eyes to see that disease is everywhere as it was never been before, years ago, & on rapid increase, you must be too young.

    And if you haven’t heard it said, many times, that the reason for cancer & autism being so prominent & wide spread isn’t because it is, they’ll tell you it’s always been there but we never noticed & that’s a lie.

    If you haven’t heard that, you will be hearing that fraudulent excuse soon.

    They want you to beLIEve it’s because media is responsible for reporting it as it never used to be reported but that’s not going to work, either.

    The increase is not because media is telling us all about it so we’re all of a sudden aware. Not hardly. Those who are paying attention can see the facts for themselves.

    A as for the sources you are asking for, Liz, there are many others you cannot over look, either.

    Common sense tells us many things like due to the facts of pharmaceutical bribing, donations to universities & such & paying to further re-certification in education of doctors, it doesn’t take rocket science for the layman to figure things out.

    “Bribes news, articles and information”

    http://www.naturalnews.com/bribes.html

    And as far as our text books go, we have a long way to go before we can be proud of all of them. The deception many text books hold is a disgrace. Some leave out so much in truth or spin facts..

    The good news is our youth does see through the bull easily now a days, thank goodness. Those that haven’t been too dumbed down or damaged by vaccines, other harmful toxins & drugs that is, unfortunately, see clearly through it all.

    There are some good history books & other text books to die for but you cannot trust them all, Liz. We must consider sources. Like, do they have ties with dishonest people with vested interests such as in the pharmaceutical industry?

    Just like the ties we know about behind all those fake studies that have become known world wide, which is the past track record of those who bring us vaccinations in hope to continue to keep the cover up going on.

    Our youth will be the generation that saves posterity & we, their parents & Grandparents, are paving the way.

    They are a new breed & will be setting the record straight as this good news attests to>>>

    “Harvard Medical Students Rebel Against Big Pharma Ties ”

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/18/Harvard-Medical-Students-Rebel-Against-Big-Pharma-Ties.aspx

    More good news>>>

    “Under pressure from Congress, drug makers are starting to disclose payments made to doctors, medical professionals”

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/05/16/20100516biz-drugmaker-payments-diclosures-doctors0516.html#ixzz11tDlfaRk

    And Liz, I have sent the evidence, already, to you about those peer-reviewed journals & such you ask for & trust in so you know that can’t possibly fly as credible source under all the circumstances of facts in those many reports you have to take the time to read for yourself.

    Too many of us have been, too, willing to take the words of what has been told us without actually doing the proper research. I finally did it Liz as you say you have.

    But you couldn’t have because the evidence is out in boatloads & somehow, you have missed that big boat that has so many of us on board. You can’t just skim the surface & you haven’t had time to study all the different sources I have sent you this day.

    So please do so & comment on some of that proof instead of accusing me of opinion. That can’t fly, either, because I didn’t make up that mountain of proof I sent you. That’s not even possible so what you say about me, Liz, that’s opinion.

    Too many you are too trusting & that makes you targets as cash cows & guinea pigs. We are people not sheeple & that herd mentality is harming our children in great numbers & killing us.

  155. October 9, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Dear deniers. I need a break. And you need time to actually investigate all you’ve been sent. The arguments you offer are shallow but I will be back to address them soon, even so.

    The more you try to deny the truth, the deeper you bury yourselves & I am very glad you are here helping us educate all those silently watching.

  156. October 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    When the pro vaccine side goes to extremes in trying to discredit these wonderfully vocal & good doctors

    What extremes? Pointing out that Gary Null was selling a dangerous product he developed that made himself, Null, ill? Pointing out that Boyd Haley was selling a product developed to clean toxic mine spills as a dietary supplement? That he lied about the safety studies on the product? That he was taking a 4,000% to 8,000% markup? Pointing out that Mark R. Geier is profiting from the chemical castration of boys?

  157. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    “I am very glad you are here helping us educate all those silently watching”

    Same back at you, Marsha ;)

  158. Kelly
    October 9, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Thank you Marsha!!! You Rock!!!!

  159. October 9, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Rocks the misinformation? She does, indeed.

  160. October 9, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    I stand behind those doctors who are human & prone to error. As for the likes of Paul Offit, I do not because the evidence of all the damage is right there. It has been coming in the form of many, many voices of desperate & frustrated parents who have been sounding the waning bells that have been ignored for far too long.

    Here’s all about Offit for profit>>>

    “Vaccine Doctor Given at Least $30 Million Dollars to Push Vaccines”

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/06/25/Vaccine-Doctor-Given-at-Least-30-Million-Dollars-to-Push-Vaccines.aspx

  161. October 9, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Since full disclosure of the epidemic dilemma has not posted yet, I will place a shorter version here & hope it will.

    We Are A Nation of Epidemics on a scale of such magnitude that it is unbelievable yet undeniable if properly investigated.

    This rise has been right in step with the huge increase in vaccinations through the years.

    Beginning with the epidemic of autism which is a neurological injury & condition caused by vaccines added to all the rest of the disease they have caused through time.

    “The Asthma Epidemic”

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/355/21/2226

    “The allergy epidemic: by 2015 half of us may be carrying one of these”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/feb/10/health.medicineandhealth1

    “The Autoimmune Epidemic:
    Bodies Gone Haywire in a World Out of Balance”

    http://www.mindfully.org/Health/2008/Autoimmune-Epidemic-Nakazawa21mar08.htm

  162. October 9, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    More to think about>>>

    “Epilepsy is a global epidemic”

    http://www.modernghana.com/news2/231579/1/epilepsy-is-a-global-epidemic-epileptic-expert.html

    And they have known vaccines have caused epilepsy for years>>>

    http://vactruth.com/2010/05/09/vaccines-cause-epilepsy/

    “Childhood MS: A silent epidemic?”

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-12-03-ms-usat_x.htm

    “How a Continuing Polio Epidemic is being Hidden”
    Vaccinations? Yes!

    http://www.fearoftheinvisible.com/whohides

  163. October 9, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Now this is scary so watch out for those flu shots & don’t let anyone tell you different.

    “New Warning About Everyday Poison Linked to Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and Autism”

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/03/20/david-ayoub-interview-february-2010.aspx

    “America’s Frightening Alzheimer’s Epidemic”

    http://www.alternet.org/health/85532

    Alzheimer’s is old people’s neurological disorder labeled “autism” & now it’s striking younger people, too>>>

    “Young Adults for the Alzheimer’s Association”

    http://www.alz.org/northcarolina/in_my_community_15934.asp

  164. October 9, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    How about this?

    “Chickenpox Vaccine Linked with Shingles Epidemic”

    http://www.herpesdoctor.com/chickenpox-vaccine-linked-shingles-epidemic

    There’s a new government study that came out last year & yet they are still giving these toxic jabs>>>

    “Chickenpox Vaccine & Death – New US Government Study”

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/chickenpoxadultdeaths/

  165. October 9, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Marsha: Filibustering does not turn misinformation into evidence.

    Almost every link Marsha has listed has pre-emptively been debunked by links in the original post.

  166. October 9, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Not only are toxins, harmful drugs, & especially vaccines, destroying the minds & bodies of our children in great numbers, they have caused all of these & more epidemics of disease later in life on a scale of such magnitude that it is unbelievable yet undeniable when properly researched.

    Many children have been damaged & even died directly after being vaccinated & great numbers of adults, young & old, have gone to early graves after much suffering.

    We are a nation of epidemics that has rippled out to the world because of our ignorance of vaccines & this rise has truly been right in step with the huge increase in vaccinations through the years as all the evidence shows.

    “There is an epidemic of cancer today. One in three Americans will be diagnosed with cancer, often before the age of 65.”

    Doctors have been trained, obviously, to deny any increase by claiming media responsible for bringing attention to it but we know that’s not true because we have witnessed the facts all around us with our own ears & eyes as people we know are being struck in great numbers everywhere.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/opinion/19iht-edservan.1.16308287.html

  167. October 9, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    Correction: Almost every *vaccine-related* link Marsha has listed has pre-emptively been debunked by links in the original post, as she finds it challenging to stay on-topic.

  168. October 9, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Marsha,

    Now you are just outright misrepresenting the facts. Alzheimer disease and autism are completely unrelated.

  169. October 9, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    I just saw Fox & Friends had another segment on vaccines this morning but haven’t had time to see it all. You should tape the Saturday morning show so you don’t miss it. It looks like Alisyn is taking up the torch for truth & allowing all sides of the issue to have voice. That same lying doctor was on this moring. You know, the one that was schooled by Rebecca Estepp from Safe Minds. I’ll report what they said for you a soon as I can.

    Check it out if you haven’t seen it. I’m not sure if I posted the link here or not>>>

    And watch this gret news reporter’s Facebook wall for updates>>>

    http://www.facebook.com/AlisynCamerota

  170. October 9, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    Janine, those papers have been called into serious question and in some cases thoroughly debunked, including the laboratory that performed the analyses. And regardless of whether the body uses it or loses it, the dose and route make the poison for a compound, including selenium, arsenic, zinc, mercury, etc.

  171. October 9, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    I just noticed some of the proof to the facts of fruad those who bring us vaccinations represent did not post.

    Let’s try jus t a bit at a time. I told Liz I already posted the truth behind those peer reviewed studies she puts unwarrented trust in & here they haven’t even posted.

    “Science is Broken/Peer Review is Censorship and Intimidation”

    http://nov55.com/prv.html

    “Corrupted Research – Exposing the Peer Review Process”

    http://tinyurl.com/y8ltj4h

  172. October 9, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    I don’t consider video interviews to represent facts. I consider scientific evidence in the aggregate that has repeatedly knocked down a hypothesis to represent the best current understanding of the facts. I don’t watch online videos at all if I can help it, and certainly an interview on Fox is not something I’d view.

    As for the assertion that your “numbers are growing stronger every day,” I’d be interested in seeing some evidence for that. My take on it, based on representation in the news media, etc., is that the tide of anti-vaccination fervor is, in fact, waning. If you’ve got evidence to the contrary, I’d like to see that.

    Wakefield has zero scientific credibility, and that’s not simply a matter of opinion. Jay Gordon, ditto, and I think that both of them are doing immense harm by lending their credentials–or former credentials–to this bogus campaign. If they know better, then they’re guilty of deeper crimes; if they do not and actually believe what they’re saying, then they’re guilty of being incompetent practitioners of science and medicine.

  173. October 9, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    More>>>

    The end of the Peer Show – scientists’ misguided attempt to solve a non-existent problem by Dr Ted Nield, NUJ FGS

    http://www.mantleplumes.org/PeerReview.html

    “Peer review trickery?”

    http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/57130/

    “Abuse, Misuse of Peer Review Process Allow Spread of Scientific Misinformation – by Henry I. Miller, M.D.”

    http://tinyurl.com/2wcn96s

  174. October 9, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    Tom, agreed with that rationale. It’s not that I think that posting here will even remotely influence the commenters to whom I reply with counterpoints; rather, I’m hoping that people who are simply researching and seeking rationale answers will see rational counterpoints and be able to come to sensible and least-harmful conclusions.

  175. October 9, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Don’t forget to use any search engine of your choice & study all the articles for yourself. Look up, “faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them” to see.

    A bit more for your review>>>

    “UK “Faked” National Autism Data To Declare MMR Vaccine “Safe”

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/uksurveyautismlink/

    “UK General Medical Council Told Docs “Commit Fraud for MMR Vaccine Bonuses”

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/gmc-fraud-for-bonuses/

  176. just a mom
    October 9, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    On behalf of those silently watching, thanks for the education. I have really wrestled with whether to vaccinate my child and it is because of science based bloggers and the scientific evidence, that I have. No regrets. The anti-vax people are starting to look kooky now, but 10, even 5 years ago, it was harder to tell. Thank you for your work in clarifying all of the information out there.

    I am always concerned about the health of my child, and if she gets so much as a bump, I look at what I could have/should have done/not done. I can only imagine how I would feel if she were to begin to show a developmental disability or have some form of trauma. My heart goes out to the parents on either side of this debate. We all love our babies.

  177. October 9, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    This is all just too much to be denied, don’t you all have to agree? No one could possibly make all this up>>>

    “Thalidomide’ doctor alleges plot to gag him”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/thalidomide-doctor-alleges-plot-to-gag-him-1424275.html

    “Peer Review Of Grants Stifles Scientific Innovation?”

    http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004766.html

  178. October 9, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    Here’s this morning’s Fox & Friends report>>>

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/4367469/whooping-cough-shot-mandatory/

  179. October 9, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    It’s hard to believe you call us kooky & that you really are just a mom, Just a Mom, after all the evidence that I have just posted. And you, Shannon. You say>>>

    “Marsha: Filibustering does not turn misinformation into evidence.

    Almost every link Marsha has listed has pre-emptively been debunked by links in the original post.”

    I have not seen any of you debunk even one of the sources I sent you.

    Let’s see what proof you have to bring to our table. Debunk what I have told you for all to see or admit defeat because you are dfeated. You cannot stand against truth & everyone watching & paying attention can see that.

    You have the floor & I will see you tomorrow. Let’s see what you have.

    In closing, let me leave you with this>>>

    “The Real Scoop on California Whooping Cough”

    “Why Dr. Snyderman’s Whooping Cough Vaccine Rant is a Total SHAM”

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/08/24/the-rea

  180. October 9, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    That’s the wrong link. For some reason you can’t get it to come up by posting the link.You’ll have to place this in your browser & click on it to see this powerfull presentation>>>
    Why Dr. Snyderman’s Whooping Cough Vaccine Rant is a Total SHAM

  181. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Note to everyone but Marsha (who couldn’t care less):

    The almost-20-year-old story about the “Thalidomide” doctor (cited by Marsha above) reports that he’s been discredited . . . but that he accuses “international drug companies of a conspiracy to bring about his demise.”

    The story does not prove that there was a plot to “gag” this doctor. It merely reports that HE BELIEVES there was a plot to gag him.

    See the difference?

    This is typical of most of Marsha’s “sources.” Evidently, she takes this story as conclusive evidence that this doctor has been persecuted. Read it for yourself, folks. Is that the conclusion you come to? I’ll bet it’s not.

    Many of Marsha’s other sources are from “alternative medicine” or antivaccination websites. Unsurprisingly, the antivax websites have lots of stories about how terrible vaccines are. Do they provide any actual evidence? Not so much. At best, the evidence they do cite is misinterpreted or reported incorrectly.

    Marsha, please note what justamom says: You come across as “kooky” to her. Predictably, you attribute this not to your own kookiness, but to justamom’s inability or unwillingness to “see the truth.”

    Again, even if you’re 100% right about everything, Marsha, there’s no way you’re going to convince too many people of that with the sources you cite as “proof.”

  182. October 9, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    Marsha, that is because, as Shannon noted, she preemptively debunked them in the links in her original article. Readers need only click on those links to find the information. It’s certainly tidier than this visual circus of video links, Mercola garbage, et al., that runs through this series of posts.

    I’m certainly not going to argue that peer review is perfect, because it isn’t, and I’m not going to argue that grant peer review does not tend to limit innovation (because it does), although there has been a response to that in the form of specific “innovation” grants that allow for funding of more free-form investigations and concepts. That said, it’s interesting–and I’ve noted it before (http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/07/in-name-of-science.html)–that the antivax side will vilify science and scientists and dismiss it and them out of hand until they find some that they think supports their stance. Then suddenly, the word “scientific” and “scientist” and the term “peer review” become like the talismans that will allow you to place the crown of righteousness on your heads.

    You speak of “truth” as though it were handed down from on high as some unchallengeable, immutable law. In science it is not. In science, there is no truth, there are hypotheses to be challenged and there is evidence to accumulate. A hypothesis that cannot stand up to repeated challenge–and the autism-vaccine hypothesis has failed to do so repeatedly–is a dead hypothesis. The best science can do is derive some idea of truth as it is at this point in time from the aggregate of the evidence, and the aggregate–the overwhelming aggregate–indicates no link between autism and vaccines, autism and MMR, or autism and thimerosal.

  183. October 9, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    Yes, Tom. Thank you for pointing out that 20 year old article. It just goes to show the fraud has been going on for a very long time.

    No she didn’t ej. What Shannon inserted in the article did not debunk any of the evidence I sent today. Try again.

  184. Tom
    October 9, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    Naw, it just goes to show that people have been CLAIMING fraud for a very long time . . . .

    Again, folks, read the article yourself. Doesn’t prove anything.

  185. October 9, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    Marsha, quite honestly, I’m not here to try again with you. You are not the person I’m addressing. My note that Shannon’s links deal quite handily with what you post is for people who might be reading this who are genuinely interested in following the trail of evidence, rather than the trail of conspiracy theory, paranoia, emotion, and innuendo. I know you’re not interested in that and that you’re not interested in any real discussion or exchange of ideas. Shannon’s links *do* cover any addressable assertions that have been made on this thread, and any reader who’s interested in following the thread of evidence should take a look at them.

  186. October 10, 2010 at 1:15 am

    I just read as much of this thread as I could stomach. Shannon, Emily, and Liz: I admire your patience, civility, and tenacity. Thank you, on behalf of the bystanders, for staying calm and gathering all the research in one place. This comment thread is the perfect illustration of the “…disturbing lack of attention to science…” that Ari Ne’eman pointed out in his recent interview.

  187. October 10, 2010 at 1:41 am

    The facts, unpalatable as they are to many. No vaccine has every prevented a disease. The so called science that says so is a lie, not a science. Vaccines are the major cause of autism, though not the only one, and also the cause of a great many serious illnesses and syndromes. The medical profession and government are knowingly lying about these things, making them every bit the sadistic killers we are likely to see on death row.

  188. joe
    October 10, 2010 at 3:03 am

    They were being told, we have found what is making the children sick. And
    the CDC ignored it and declared business as usual onward with the mass poisoning of American children.

    Isn’t it amazing the CDC being told this; people were informed, in no uncertain terms, that they need to look into this issue immediately, and do something about it.” The clock is ticking, they were told, and if they don’t respond, the information would be made public!

    This does not scare you; The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering. I hope this scares the Hell out of any parents that may be putting off vaccines. Parents the Toxins and Heavy Metals, they go in easy
    It’s the removal you need to worry about. And parents, if you end up with a
    vaccine damaged child FYI the current risk from vaccines is now 1 in 110 children and 1 in 70 boys for Vaccine induced regression into Autism. You can assure your self the Peds. will assure you the Vaccines had nothing to do with it. Then they will shove you right out of their practice if you ever ever
    mention it ever again. And if you have a Ped. like we had for our son, when you mention at the well baby checks you concerns and watch him write it all down. And then you file with the NVICP and you then find someone had put white pieces of paper over the well baby checks so obvious you could see the four corners of the paper. Then you tell them at the NVICP the reason you have no written concerns from your ped. was he had white washed the Papers, where you and your wife had brought up that he was not trying to
    talk anymore chewing and sniffing everything and was acting strange. The reply from the non adversarial no fault so so so compassionate Justice Department Attorney. So what, that is your burden of proof not ours. The NVICP is so corrupt the bar is set so high and ridiculous. In fact it does not even match what the manufacturer says is the amount of time for an encephalopathy to occur, and many children are disqualified through that misinterpretation of the facts. In fact it was changed by the HHS secretary under President Clinton “Donna Shalala” she noticed they were paying out to many claims so she raised the bar so high it is damn near impossible to qualify. And as far as the ped. we had, I found out he took early retirement
    so I went back to see if I could get a clean well baby check files. That were not tampered with from my sons ped’s office, the Dr. that took over said he had taken some children’s files with him. Yeah, the ones he knew that might be vaccine damaged. So much for integrity of the ped’s

    Here is the worse that the CDC was told, that they went on ignore.

    Some researchers on the call reported that mitochondrial dysfunction is probably much more common than the current estimate of 1-in-4,000 people. The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering. “We need to find out if there is credible evidence, theoretically, to support the idea that childhood mitochondrial dysfunction might regress into autism,” one of the callers reportedly told participants. “THE CLOCK IS TICKING” One person on the call (those interviewed for this article asked to remain anonymous) told me that, “the CDC people were informed, in no uncertain terms, that they need to look into this issue immediately, and do something about it.” The clock is ticking, they were told, and if they don’t respond, the information would be made public! Continue

  189. John Fryer Chemist
    October 10, 2010 at 4:11 am

    Hi Shannon

    Thanks for replying that you do not wish to debate with me on vaccine harm.

    Is that not a blinkered view?

    You say research demonstrates and mine is I don’t believe you.

    You put words in my mouth for like you from 1950 through to 1997 I was like you a believer in vaccines.

    Today I still believe in them but I also know they also have an enormous capacity to DO HARM.

    The research actually goes back more than a hundred years but people want to believe that vaccines do work so much that they ignore, change or accept harm as the price we pay for vaccinated children.

    Even today without argument and debate there are many vaccine options taken in the USA that xould be illegal in MANY other countries.

    Sadly many vaccines not in the USA would be ILLEGAL in the USA.

    We live in an imperfect world and clearly debate without rancour is important.

    I am as said a chemist and the toxicity of mercury is NOT debatable.

    You can deliberately add it to vaccines if you wish but you have to accept:

    1 It is a poison

    2 Vaccines are available without it and have never sold out

    So why do we have mercury deliberately added?

    And what does it do to one person in thousand as we know most can take it like a man or more appropriately like a crying baby.

  190. October 10, 2010 at 10:28 am

    John, I did not write that “I do not wish to debate” you, I wrote that there wouldn’t be much point. You are not interested in debate, you are interested in spreading misinformation (again, for readers who haven’t been reading this epic thread in its entirety: “misinformation” is false and/or incorrect information that its upholders honestly believe in, whereas “disinformation” is falsehoods spread deliberately).

    If you are a chemist, then surely you must know the the difference between the toxic methylmercury that shows up in food and the environment and is responsible for conditions like Minimata’s disease, and the ethylmercury form that was *removed* from children’s scheduled vaccines starting in 1999.

    I can’t debate someone who isn’t properly informed on the basics.

  191. Tom
    October 10, 2010 at 10:50 am

    It is not true that “the toxicity of mercury is not debatable.” There is a big difference between ethyl mercury and methyl mercury, just as there is a difference between ethyl alcohol (what you drink in alcoholic beverages like beer) and methyl alcohol (also known as wood alcohol, which will make you go blind).

    The type of mercury that is in thimerosal is ethyl mercury. The mercury that causes mercury poisoning is methyl mercury. That you don’t seem to know this suggests to me that you are not a chemist or, if you are, you are a sadly misinformed and unskilled chemist.

  192. October 10, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Dear Marsha,

    I asked you to provide evidence, and you can’t.

    You must be young.

    No, I’m not. Judging by your facebook page, I’m several years older than you.

    If you can’t use your own eyes to see that disease is everywhere as it was never been before, years ago, & on rapid increase, you must be too young.

    Marsha, this is just a frank falsehood. Compared to my childhood, there’s much less disease. Why? Vaccines and science. No polio epidemics. No measles epidemics. No mumps epidemics. No storms of miscarriage or handicapped babies following rubella epidemics. Many fewer deaths from meningitis and epiglottitis, thanks to the Hib vaccine. Oh, and cancer? How about childhood leukemia? It used to be a sure death sentence. Thanks to advances in science, it is one of the more treatable cancers.

    I’ve looked at your “sources” — the list is up to about 33. All but one are opinions and scare-mongering and riddled with logical fallacies.

    I’ve asked for evidence, again and again. All you do is wave your hands, invoke some boogey men, and claim “common sense”.

  193. October 10, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    I couldn’t agree more about your Ari Ne’eman quote. Thank you for speaking out.

  194. joe
    October 10, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Shannon you are the one misinformed, the the most Toxic Mercury is the one that crosses the Blood Brain Barrier the easiest. Surely you have heard of the Burbacher study that the NIH paid for, their findings were that the Thimerosal is injected in the body and then it turns into ethyl-mercury then it crosses the BBB ( I like saying this, it does cross the BBB easier than does the fish mercury) those are NIH researcher Burbachers findings not mine. Then it turns into a more dangerous form of Mercury (Inorganic), that recently according to the six teams of Mitochondria specialist across the globe. They brought to light that what were seeing in Autism, is appearing to be Mitochondria problems regressing into Autism. Now factor in the fact that the most damaging to the Mitochondria is two compounds both of which are in the children’s Vaccines Inorganic Mercury and MSG then add also the route of of the exposure Vaccineal in the bloodstream and the as you called it the food Mercury it’s route of exposure is the ingested type it goes through the body’s own filtering system. Now we have recently found in studies, that one reason the Ethyl-mercury may enter the Brain easier is the Aluminum in vaccines. For in the studies the Aluminum causes the BBB to be more porous. Shannon now that is not misinformation that is truth. Apparently Shannon and Tom you are as informed as you thought. It was
    also found that the Thimerosal turns to inorganic Mercury at two and a half times that as does the fish AKA Methyl- Mercury It appears you do not know as much as you think you do. BTW FYI parents, it is on the (MSDS)
    Manufacturer Data Sheet of Thimerosal to never mix Aluminum with it for
    reasons of reactivity. You see Parents, they knew that the two Thimerosal
    that is 50% Mercury by weight and Aluminum react violently when mixed
    with the production of heat. And the Mercury causes the Aluminum to oxidize,and also causes the Mercury Toxicity to climb by 10 times in other words the Toxin becomes a Super Toxin.

    Parents even after the warning to not mix the two, the CDC has because they
    apparently do not adhere to warnings. And the current state of health of the American Children and the American population reflect that Arrogance. Aluminum is in Children’s Vaccines as a catalyst. They have set up the perfect storm for neurological damage in our children……

  195. October 10, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    I guess I’m going to have to bring out Penn & Teller, who methodically dispelled your vaccine additives and mercury claims in their recent Bullsh*t! episode on vaccines (Note: Unsurprisingly, the video contains profanity. There is also brief satirical nudity near the end, so, NSFW x2. Also, click directly on the arrow in the center of the video or you’ll be redirected).

    http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ED2FU88B

    I will also follow your cutting-and-pasting model. As I wrote in a related blog post: If you know someone who’s still on the fence, have them watch this video. P&T capsulize and fatally skewer major autism myths in less than 30 minutes, demonstrating that:

    * Vaccines protect our kids, critically — a modern luxury that should not be taken for granted. If you’re crunched for time, watch the first two minutes for a stellar depiction as to why vaccinations are so important, regardless of autism concerns.
    * There is no link between autism and vaccines, and yes, scientists have investigated the matter thoroughly.
    * Vaccines are not Big Pharma cash cows. But — ooh irony — the alternative autism treatment industry is quite the golden goose.
    * There is more mercury in a tuna sandwich than there was in an entire lifetime’s worth of vaccines — but the mercury in the vaccine preservative Thimerosal was removed from scheduled vaccines years ago [and anyhow it was ethylmercury, not methylmercury -SR].

    Post link: http://www.squidalicious.com/2010/09/antivaccionationist-misinformation-and.html

  196. October 10, 2010 at 6:46 pm

    Liz wrote>>>

    “Dear Marsha,

    I asked you to provide evidence, and you can’t.”

    You weren’t paying attention, Liz, now were you?

  197. October 10, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    I’m trying again on a post that has been hung up since before noon.

  198. October 10, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    It’s still hung up, probably for the >30 links therein.

  199. October 10, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Item #1, a YouTube video, a time-lapes video of metallic mercury (amalgam) on an piece of sheet aluminum

    Marsha believes this video adds to the “mountain of evidence.” However, this video is entirely irrelevant to the presence of ethyl mercury in trace amounts in vaccines or the presence of aluminum salts, also in nanogram amounts, in vaccines.

  200. October 10, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    I guess I have to do it stepwise. I started with Marsha’s “mountain of evidence” which is really a small heap of nonsense or unrelated articles gathered higglety-piggelty from the internet.

    My previous response to Marsha, which may be lost in the threaded response.

    Yesterday, Marsha wrote

    I have not seen any of you debunk even one of the sources I sent you.

    Let’s see what proof you have to bring to our table. Debunk what I have told you for all to see or admit defeat because you are dfeated. You cannot stand against truth & everyone watching & paying attention can see that.

  201. October 10, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    Item #2, a video.

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/4357414/vaccines-bad-combination/?playlist_id=86892

    October 2, 2010 Alisyn Camerota from Fox News’ Interview with Bob Sears, MD. Sears, as a spokesperson for Safeminds, repeats the lie that vaccines in combination have not been tested for safety. Unfortunately, legitimate scientists have to provide evidence for their assertions. SafeMinds and their ilk do not. He uses weasel words such as “simultaneous vaccination has not been completely studied.” This is a variation of the fallacy of “appeal to ignorance”, in which that “absence of proof is evidence of absence.” In other words, since it hasn’t been shown to be safe, it must be unsafe.

  202. October 10, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Item #3, a video

    This is an interview with Rebecca Estepp of Talk About Curing Autism (TACA) and Marc Siegal, MD, a physician (an internist, not a vaccinologist or infectious disease specialist), who appears frequently on Fox News. All this film clip shows is that Estepp is better prepared than Siegal (who, after all, is Fox’s medical correspondent and not trained in immunology, vaccinology or infectious disease.) The clip proves nothing about the safety or efficacy of vaccines.

  203. October 10, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Item #4, a link to Matt Lauer’s Facebook page

    http://www.facebook.com/NBCMattLauer

    This has to do with interviews with Andrew Wakefield, following January 28th 2010 decision by the General Medical Council to remove Wakefield from the United Kingdom’s medical register.

    Wakefield’s hearing was

    longest in the history of the GMC, with the disciplinary panel sitting for a total of 148 days over a period of 2 and a half years at an estimated cost of one million pounds. The results of the investigation were revealed in a 143 page report on 28th January 2010, and found that Wakefield showed a “callous disregard” for childrens’ suffering and “abused his position of trust.”

    The GMC “..determined that Dr Wakefield’s name should be erased from the medical register…”.

    In one comment above, Marsha refers to Wakefield as an “American hero”. No — he was an opportunistic quack, seeking to enrich himself by preying on parents’ fears. Wakefield’s sordid story has been investigated in detail elsewhere. Those who continue to support him share in his moral bankruptcy.

  204. October 10, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Item #5

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-gordon/pbs-frontline-show-about_b_554691.html

    This is Jay Gordon, MD, whining that his interview wasn’t used on the April 28,2010 Frontline show, “The Vaccine War.” His views are fully aired in the Huffington Post article and his website. Nothing is hidden; no one has been “censored”. Surely someone as media-savvy Jay Gordon must realize that lots of interviews are taped for documentaries and that often, out of two hours of tape, either a snippet or even nothing will end up finding its way into the final documentary. It’s not censorship. It is not evidence of bias or anything else. . It’s just the way time-limited news programs are put together.

    The April 2010 Frontline program was widely regarded as “biased” by anti-vaccination zealots, because it didn’t support their points of view.

  205. October 10, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    Item #6

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

    This is a link to Ingri Cassel’s site, whose mission statement includes: “To reveal the myth that vaccines are necessary, safe and effective”. Ms. Cassel has no known education in medicine, immunology, or vaccinology. The documents on the site are propaganda, not evidence-based.

    There’s nothing more to be said than that — Cassel’s site is pure propaganda, not evidence.

  206. October 10, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    Item #7

    Marsha’s next post is a list of physicians, nurses, chiropractors, naturopaths, and assorted “complimentary health care” people who oppose public health in the form of vaccinations. It’s just that — a list of names, without any evidence. Many on the list have highly questionable credentials and motivations

  207. October 10, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Item #8

    http://gaia-health.com/articles251/000277-quackbusters-are-busted.shtml#comments

    Gaia-health is a website purporting to give “true and honest information about health.” Unfortunately, it does not subscribe to “Health on the Net” or HON code principles.

    The article mentioned above, by Heidi Stevenson, detailed the suit filed by Doctor’s Data Laboratory against Stephen Barret, MD, and Quackwatch. It repeats a number of untruths, half-truths, and misinfomation.

    Stevenson’s article is just a is a poisoning-the-well gambit.

  208. October 10, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    Item #9 is

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/pdf/nihms171746.pdf

    [aside: evidently Marsha only knows how to link PDFs, not properly cite articles.]

    Shaw, CA, Petrikc MS (2009) Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration J Inorg Biochem. 2009 November ; 103(11): 1555. doi:10.1016/j.jinorgbio.2009.05.019.

    This is a study, using mice, on the vaccine regimen given to servicemen in the first Gulf War. This particular papaer of the larger study concerns neurotoxicity of aluminum hydroxide. The results suggest further study .Unless I am missing something, the study isn’t blinded — the researchers knew which mice had had which treatment, which is a significant weakness in the study.

  209. October 10, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Item #10 is

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/opinion/19iht-edservan.1.16308287.htmlSee More

    This required some tweaking to resolve to

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/opinion/19iht-edservan.1.16308287.html

    which is David Servan-Schreiber, MD’s article on Sept. 19, 2008 article “We can stop the cancer epidemic”, in which he states his opinion that most cancers in the West are avoidable with changes in life-style measures.

    I have no idea what this essay has to do with the safety or efficacy of vaccines, or why Marsha thought this was pertinent.

  210. October 10, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Item #11 & 12 go together, which have to do with Poul Thorsen
    #11 is:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

    Robert F. Kennedy, jr’s highly inaccurate and inflammatory hit piece on the alleged misdeeds of Poul Thorsen, a Danish researcher who was a junior author on one of the articles that exonerated thimerosal as causal in autism.

    The Thorsen issue is still clear as mud. What is clear is that he never “disappeared” nor did he “steal” any money; it is all about where a researcher is employed and what grant money goes with him. It’s also clear that the whole contretemps has no effect on the validity of the previous Danish thimerosal & autism studies

    ======

    #12 is

    http://inthesenewtimes.com/2010/04/06/statement-regarding-dr-poul-thorsen%E2%80%99s-involvement-in-aarhus-university-projects/

    which is a reposting of Generation Rescue’s reposting of Aarhus University’s January 22, 2010 final statementof the Thorsen matter.

    In other words, the Thorsen matter was a disagreement between several universities and the researcher, not a condemnation of the research previously published.

    The Thorsen matter’s bearing on the overall safety and efficacy of vaccines? None.

  211. October 10, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    #13 is

    http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html

    An opinion article from Mike Adams, the “Health Ranger” on the meaning of the frauds committed by Scott Reuben, MD.

    Yes, Reuben committed fraud. This does not mean that all scientific studies are fraudulent. More balanced views of the Reuben affair from http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-medical-madoff-anesthestesiologist-faked-data and http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/the_most_massive_scientific_fraud_ever.php

    By the way, the frauds were discovered by Reuben’s superiors. So much for the total corruption of the medical establishment.

  212. October 10, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    #14 is

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/gmc-fraud-for-bonuses/

    An article from “Child Health Safety”, a UK blog written by Clifford Miller, a solicitor (attorney) and John Stone (Age of Autism’s UK editor, other qualifications unknown), on a withdrawn UK General Medical Councel advisory to physicians.

    This appears to be a bun-fight having to do with the UK’s medical system. The blog post is irrelevant to the issue of safety or efficacy of vaccines.

  213. October 10, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    #15 and #16 are related
    #15 is

    http://www.naturalnews.com/028233_GlaxoSmithKline_Avandia.html

    another opinon piece from Mike Adams.

    Mike Adams is a self-professed “natural living” expert, with no known medical or scientific training or qualifications. Mike Adams’ message is that science is evil, medicine is there to enslave you, nobody needs vaccines, and that if you only live “right” (i.e., his way), you don’t have to worry about disease.

    What he is an expert at is selling product for his profit.

    He is also a despicable ghoul — see his response to Patrick Swayze’s death, in which he blamed Swayze for getting cancer and dying of it.
    =======

    #16 is a collection of articles from Mike Adam’s “Natural News”

    http://www.naturalnews.com/bribes.html, on alleged health frauds.

    What either of these links have to do with the safety and efficacy of vaccines, I do not know.

  214. October 10, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    #17 is from Joe Mercola’s marketing site

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/18/Harvard-Medical-Students-Rebel-Against-Big-Pharma-Ties.aspx

    As I do not subscribe to Mercola’s site I couldn’t read the whole thing, but it appears to be a rehash of an article in the New York Times,

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/business/worldbusiness/03iht-harvardweb.20568317.html

    In which Harvard Medical Students in 2009 began to protest the degree to which their professors were profiting from relationships with pharmaceutical companies.

    What this has to do with the safety and efficacy of vaccines, I do not know.

  215. October 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm

    #18 is an article on changing business practices between doctors and pharmaceutical companies.

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/05/16/20100516biz-drugmaker-payments-diclosures-doctors0516.html#ixzz11tDlfaRk

    I have no idea why Marsha chose this article, or what it goes to prove. The “pharma muckracking” sector has been hammering away at Big Pharma misdeeds for years. Readers interested in this area might want to look at Carl Elliott’s book White Coat, Black Hat: Adventures on the Dark Side of Medicine,or Daniel Carlot’s blog http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/ for starters.

    At any rate, what this article has to do with the safety or efficacy of vaccines, I do not know.

  216. October 10, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    #19

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/06/25/Vaccine-Doctor-Given-at-Least-30-Million-Dollars-to-Push-Vaccines.aspx

    is Joe Mercola’s equally inaccurate rehash of the hit piece on Paul Offit, MD, adapted from the much-criticized Age of Autism coverage.

    Yes, Dr. Offit did receive funds for his decades of work developing a vaccine against rotavirus, but it’s nowhere near $30 million. For accurate information, see

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/09/the-national-autism-associations-embarassing-spitefullness/

    and an email from Dr. Offit at

    http://www.wellsphere.com/autism-autism-spectrum-article/paul-offit-explains-the-money-side-of-the-rotavirus-vaccine-he-worked-on/801393

    If I’m recalling correctly, Autism News Beat’s headline for this particular Offit matter was something like “Surprise! Successful inventors are compensated for their inventions!”

  217. October 10, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    #20 is a link to

    The Asthma Epidemic

    Waltraud Eder, M.D., Markus J. Ege, M.D., M.P.H., and Erika von Mutius, M.D.

    N Engl J Med 2006; 355:2226-2235November 23, 2006

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra054308

    Unfortunately I was only able to read the first 100 words of this article, as it had no abstract.

    It is no secret that the incidence and prevalence of asthma in the developed world has increased. However, vaccines are an unlikely cause. The “hygiene hypothesis” seems more likely

    http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/164/7/1106

  218. October 10, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Marsha has lined to another 10 or so articles. None are peer-reviewed articles; many are from such suspect sites as Natural News and Mercola’s sites. Why are they suspect? Both Adams and Mercola make their living by arousing fear and doubt in readers, and then selling them products to reduce the fear and doubt. Neither Adams nor Mercola are at all bounded by the rules of evidence or peer review.

    To summarize, Marsha’s “proof” and “evidence” is just hodge-podge of articles, proving nothing — no conspiracy, no impending health catastrophe, no proof that vaccines are bad or dangerous, no evidence to back up any of her assertions.

  219. October 10, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    I see I missed another of Marsha’s unfactual assertions

    Vaccines were not even in the picture before death from disease was on it’s sicdecline which can be researched by looking up, “proof vaccines didn’t save us”

    Sigh. That ploy is so thread-bare I overlooked it, but I guess it is still a staple of the anti-vaccination faithful. The best lay rebuttal is from Dr. Gorski, in “Vaccines didn’t save us” (a.k.a. “vaccines don’t work”): Intellectual dishonesty at its most naked

  220. October 10, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    One of my friends sent me a list of papers refuting one element of the “vaccines are bad and useless” meme, with permission to post it here.

    Marsha, Joe, and other anti-vaccination folk reading here, I’d be grateful if you could tell me why each of the authors is corrupt or why the study is badly performed or any other reason for disregarding the study.

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study. Hornig M et al. PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

    *Subjects: 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)

    Measles Vaccination and Antibody Response in Autism Spectrum Disorders. Baird G et al. Arch Dis Child 2008; 93(10):832-7. Subjects: 98 vaccinated children aged 10-12 years in the UK with autism spectrum disorder (ASD); two control groups of similar age: 52 children with special educational needs but no ASD and 90 children in the typically developing group

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan. Uchiyama T et al. J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7

    *Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder (Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

    No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder. D’Souza Y et al. Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75

    *Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

    Immunizations and Autism: A Review of the Literature. Doja A, Roberts W. Can J Neurol Sci. 2006; 33(4):341-6

    *Literature review

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations. Fombonne E et al. Pediatrics. 2006;118(1):e139-50

    *Subjects: 27,749 children born from 1987 to 1998 attending 55 schools

    Relationship between MMR Vaccine and Autism. Klein KC, Diehl EB. Ann Pharmacother. 2004; 38(7-8):1297-300

    *Literature review of 10 studies

    Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. Institute of Medicine. The National Academies Press: 2004 (w w w . nap.edu/books/030909237X/html) *Literature review

    MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study. Smeeth L et al. Lancet 2004; 364(9438):963-9

    *Subjects: 1294 cases and 4469 controls

    Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta. DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66

    *Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

    Prevalence of Autism and Parentally Reported Triggers in a North East London Population. Lingam R et al. Arch Dis Child 2003; 88(8):666-70

    *Subjects: 567 children with autistic spectrum disorder

    Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination. Makela A et al. Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63

    *Subjects: 535,544 children vaccinated between November 1982 and June 1986 in Finland

    A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism. Madsen KM et al. N Engl J Med 2002; 347(19):1477-82

    *Subjects: All 537,303 children born 1/91–12/98 in Denmark

    Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database. Black C et al. BMJ 2002; 325:419-21

    *Subjects: 96 children diagnosed with autism and 449 controls

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study. Taylor B et al. BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6

    *Subjects: 278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism

    No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism. Fombonne E et al. Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58

    *Subjects: 262 autistic children (pre- and post-MMR samples)

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project. Davis RL et al. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9

    *Subjects: 155 persons with IBD with up to 5 controls each

    Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California. Dales L et al. JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5

    *Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600–1,900 children each year)

    Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis. Kaye JA et al. BMJ 2001; 322:460-63

    *Subjects: 305 children with autism

    Further Evidence of the Absence of Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Full Thickness Intestinal Specimens from Patients with Crohn’s Disease. Afzal MA, et al. J Med Virol 2000; 62(3):377-82

    *Subjects: Specimens from patients with Crohn’s disease

    Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association. Taylor B et al. Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9

    *Subjects: 498 children with autism

    Absence of Detectable Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Inflammatory Bowel Disease Tissues and Peripheral Blood Lymphocytes. Afzal MA et al. J Med Virol 1998; 55(3):243-9

    *Subjects: 93 colonoscopic biopsies and 31 peripheral blood lymphocyte preparations

    No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study. Peltola H et al. Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8

    *Subjects: 3,000,000 doses of MMR vaccine

    Exposure to Measles in Utero and Crohn’s Disease: Danish Register Study. Nielsen LL et al. BMJ 1998; 316(7126):196-7

    *Subjects: 472 women with measles

    Immunocytochemical Evidence of Listeria, Escherichia coli, and Streptococcus Antigens in Crohn’s Disease. Liu Y et al. Gastroenterology 1995; 108(5):1396-1404

    *Subjects: Intestines and mesenteric lymph node specimens from 21 persons from families with a high frequency of Crohn’s disease

    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S. Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

    Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

    Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories Baker JP American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde Schechter R, Grether JK Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

    Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

    Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies Goodman MJ, Nordin J Pediatrics, February 2006, Vol. 117(2):387-390

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan Authors: Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y Source: J Autism Dev Disord, February 2007; 37(2):210-217

    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study. Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M. J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

    Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease Bigham M, Copes R Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

    Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, April 21, 2005

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

    Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

    The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines Clements CJ Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

    Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

    The Toxicology of Mercury—Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

    Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

    Impact of the Thimerosal Controversy on Hepatitis B Vaccine Coverage of Infants Born to Women of Unknown Hepatitis B Surface Antigen Status in Michigan Biroscak BJ, Fiore AE, Fasano N, Fineis P, Collins MP, Stoltman G Pediatrics, June 2003, Vol. 111(6):e645-9

    Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

    Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741

    An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154

    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001 Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States. Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM. J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis. Zhou F, Bisgard KM, Yusuf HR, Deuson RR, Bath SK, Murphy TV. Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation. Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006;160:302-309.

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study. Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus. DeStefano F, Mullooly JP, Okoro CA, Chen RT, Marcy SM, Ward JI, Vadheim CM, Black SB, Shinefield HR, Davis RL, Bohlke K; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team. Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112.

  221. October 11, 2010 at 1:33 am

    Janine, I posted a long response to your comment which has been held up in moderation.

    This is a version of my response:

    This is a response to Janine’s comment

    http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/#comment-661

    Janine, some of your points were very difficult to understand.

    1. If the so called posters say “so and so hated Melanie as she didn’t get vaccinated” but the friends did? Who isn’t to say that the friends got the illness from the jab and not from the unvaccinated Melanie?

    (a)You must be writing about some other discussion, as none of the posters expressing support for vaccination has discussed hating non-vaccinating friends. Heated discussion, yes, but hating, no.
    (b) “getting illness from the jab” — this is the myth that receiving a vaccination gives you the disease. It is a myth, based on a single event: in 1955, manufacturing errors at Cutter Labs led to an outbreak of polio, because the vaccine had not been inactivated. The incident and its implications are discussed at length in The Cutter Incident, written by Paul Offit. Yes, that Paul Offit, reviled as a vaccine apologist. Otherwise, the “vaccine gave me the disease” is just a myth.

    2. Ok so we know that Thiomersal is supposed to not be used as in the finished product, however it does fail to mention that during the synthesis of the jab, it is still stored in vials of thiomersal. So as a chemist, I know there will be some amounts of the chemical left there.

    (a) thiomersal appears to be the UK/European spelling; it’s thimerosal in the US.
    (b) your understanding of vaccine manufacture seems a bit vague. “Stored in vials of thiomersal?” Not at all. According to the World Health Organization

    Thiomersal (also known as thimerosal, mercurothiolate and sodium 2-ethylmercuriothio-benzoate) is a mercury-containing compound used to prevent bacterial and fungal growth in some vaccines during storage, and especially during use of opened multi-dose vials. It has also been used during vaccine production both to inactivate certain organisms and toxins and to maintain a sterile production line.

    (c) You also do not seem to understand the concept of dose-response, or “the dose makes the poison”. Again from WHO

    Upon review of the current epidemiologic evidence and phamacokinetic profile of thiomersal, the Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety concluded that there is currently no evidence of mercury toxicity in infants, children, or adults exposed to thiomersal in vaccines. It also concluded that there is no reason to change current immunization practices with thiomersal-containing vaccines on the grounds of safety. The safety of thiomersal-containing vaccines is reviewed at regular intervals. In the meantime, the available evidence warrants the recommendation that current WHO immunization policy with respect to thiomersal-containing vaccines should not be changed.

    In short, the trace elements of thimerosal left in some vaccines from the manufacturing process show no risk.

    3. Why do twice vaccinated people get Measless? There is a paper published in NEJM that twice jabbed people got measles? Vaccine failure in a large population (1-2 thousand people an “error”) The same goes for vaccine “failure”

    (a) re the NEJM article. It would have been helpful if you had provided a title or a link. It’s possibly this article:

    Measles Outbreak in a Fully Immunized Secondary-School Population

    Tracy L. Gustafson, M.D., Alan W. Lievens, M.D., Philip A. Brunell, M.D., Ronald G. Moellenberg, B.S., Christopher M.G. Buttery, M.D., and Lynne M. Sehulster, Ph.D.

    N Engl J Med 1987; 316:771-774March 26, 1987

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303.

    (b) You seem to be somewhat naive about immunology and vaccinology. No vaccine is 100% effective in causing immunity from the disease. For that matter, having the disease does not confer 100% lifelong immunity, either. In general, the safer the vaccine in terms of side effects, the less effective.

    4. I also have issues with what neurotoxins etc the child comes into contact inside the mum’s womb? I mean just because the child hasn’t been autistic or whatever, it doesn’t mean to say that the child has issues with the elimination of the metals.

    What does this comment have to do with vaccines? And are you assuming some sort of heavy-metal poisoning?

    5. Who has heard of epilepsy having a pathogenesis of increased Al levels in the brain and where can we find a good dollop of Al? you guessed it?

    I assume by Al you mean aluminum.
    (a) There is aluminum encephalopathy syndrome, which includes seizures

    is a progressive encephalopathy of infants and children with chronic renal insufficiency who have taken aluminum-containing products such as phosphate binders for several years.3,16-18 Adults occasionally are also affected. Patients have elevated brain aluminum concentration.17,19 Aluminum absorption is increased in renal insufficiency by secondary hypoparathyroidism, and aluminum excretion is reduced.3

    “a good dollop of Al?”

    Suppose you quantify what you are saying. Oh, wait, let medo it for you:

    Here’s another way to think about this: All babies are either breast-fed or bottle- fed. Because both breast milk and infant formula contain aluminum, all babies have small quantities of aluminum in their bloodstreams all the time. The amount is very small: about 5 nanograms (billionths of a gram) per milliliter of blood (about one-fifth of a teaspoon). Indeed, the quantity of aluminum in vaccines is so small that even after an injection of vaccines, the amount of aluminum in a baby’s blood does not detectably change.

    Baylor NW, Egan W, Richman P. Aluminum salts in vaccines— U.S. perspective. Vaccine 2002; 20: S18-S23.

    Bishop NJ, Morley R, Day JP, Lucas A. Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions. New England Journal of Medicine 1997; 336: 1557-1561.

    Committee on Nutrition: Aluminum toxicity in infants and children. Pediatrics 1996; 97: 413-416.

    Ganrot, PO. Metabolism and possible health effects of aluminum. Environmental Health Perspective 1986; 65: 363- 441.

    Keith LS, Jones DE, Chou C. Aluminum toxicokinetics regarding infant diet and vaccinations. Vaccine 2002; 20: S13- S17.

    Pennington JA. Aluminum content of food and diets. Food Additives and Contaminants, 1987; 5: 164-232.

    Simmer K, Fudge A, Teubner J, James SL. Aluminum concentrations in infant formula. Journal of Paediatrics and Child Health 1990; 26: 9-11.

    More science:

    The US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) estimated these levels for infants taking into account the amount of aluminum a child would eat as well as receive by injection of vaccines. The body burden of aluminum from both sources is below the minimal risk level except transiently following vaccinations; since 50-70% of injected aluminum is excreted within 24 hours, this is believed to have no negative effect.

    Keith LS, Jones DE, and Chou C-HSJ (2002). Aluminum toxicokinetics regarding infant diet and vaccinations. Vaccine, 20: S13-17.

    6. THIS IS INSANE THIS NEXT BIT! Why does the CDC/FDA/NICE whomever use INGESTED amounts of a substance – surely to goodness they know the body has a mucosal immune system and the blood system doesn’t? so dears as far as the various bodies are concerned – the toxicology tested they use isn’t accurate and therefore it can be called fraud and inaccurate and for “scientists” they should hang their head in shame?

    If you had some facts, I’d address this question.

    7. No safety studies have done of vaccine schedules – in the UK we have 5/6/7 in one jabs and do we know how the various microbes in the jabs work? I haven’t seen papers? they are largely untested for the common function of mutating microbes and interspecies fighting and the population of the most virulent species! (survival of the fittest)

    (a) For someone who claims a science background, you are uncommonly loose with terminology. The “5-in-one” jab is called Pentacel in the US; it protects against . I couldn’t find any scientific sources for “6-in-one jab” or the “7-in-one jab”, so I’m guessing you made it up.

    (b) You are misinformed about safety studies.

    On the contrary, vaccines are tested in larger numbers of children for longer periods of time than drugs. For example, the human papillomavirus vaccine was tested in 30000 women,9 the conjugate pneumococcal vaccine in 40000 children,10 and each of the current rotavirus vaccines in ~70000 children before licensure.11,12 No medication receives this level of scrutiny. Furthermore, safety mechanisms such as the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project are model systems for detecting rare adverse events after licensure.

    You go on to write:

    Until you can safely answer these questions and address them, then in my eyes the jabs are deemed unsafe in my eyes!

    I do hope you follow some of these links and become better educated.

    p.s. Did you know that the Aluminium hydroxyphosphate (the most reactive of the AlOP4 and Aluminium hydroxide AlOH adjuvants in vaccines) is a compound which can go direct to bond matter – it is similar in structure to bone splints! Oh and the so called placebo in the gardasil jab was ALUMINIUM not saline or anything else like that? ALUMINIUM???

    OK, enough with the hysteria, Janine

    There are three general types of aluminum-containing adjuvants:

    * Aluminum hydroxide
    * Aluminum phosphate
    * Potassium aluminum sulfate (often called “Alum”)

    The effectiveness of each salt as an adjuvant depends on the characteristics of the specific vaccine and how the manufacturer prepares the vaccine.

    Baylor NW, Egan W and Richman P (2002). Aluminum salts in vaccines-US perspective. Vaccine, 20: S18-23.

    To work as an adjuvant, the antigen must be adsorbed to the aluminum; that is, it is clumped with the aluminum salt to keep the antigen at the site of injection.

    Romero Mendez IZ, Shi Y, HogenEsch H, et al. (2007). Potentiation of the immune response to non-adsorbed antigens by aluminum-containing adjuvants. Vaccine, 25; 825-833.

    Janine, you started your comment by claiming some level of authority because you are a “Biological Chemist”, which seems to be a UK and Indian job title. I hope the work you do in your career shows more intellectual and academic rigor that you have shown here.

  222. Sara
    October 11, 2010 at 9:17 am

    No, it’s not much of a debate because our position is “research has not demonstrated” and yours is “I had an epiphany. I was born again – and have returned as your prophet. Do as I say (and not as I did). And if you don’t, I will disparage you (and take liberties with modifiers as I see fit).”

    I think I’ll remain agnostic. Thanks anyway.

  223. joe
    October 11, 2010 at 11:10 am

    True story about Dr. Steven Barrett Oh! That’s no longer Dr. he lost his
    License also, as Penn and Teller put it. Anyway back to my own encounter over the phone with this guy Barrett, he had made a statement aboutVacc’s
    and Autism. I felt what he had said was wrong, so I looked up his phone
    number and called him. At one point were talking and sharing our points of veiw with each other,then I said the real increase started when they began the Hep-b at birth. He got so mad and said, now I now I can’t believe anything you have said, no one in their right mind!!! would give a vaccine at birth. He then slammed the phone down and hung up. Shannon, Liz, Tom, Who was right?????? That happened in a phone exchange between me and
    Mr. Barrett,you see I don’t have to lie the players on the other side are so conflicted and ignorant to the issue at hand they given us enough lies and deceit to shut down the FDA and the CDC and most don’t know anything except that they are attacking our professions. And we wont! have that.
    Medical professional arrogance, is destroying Americas children for they are being sacrificed to the god of Vaccines and greed.

    Oh! all I seen in the skit of P and T is that in his eyes one in what ever # is acceptable as long as all those dreaded diseases never come back.

    What he apparently don’t know is that 90 % of all child hood diseases was taken care of by clean water, sanitation, and nutrition, before the vaccines went to market. It appears he Penn is just as ignorant to the issue as Mr. Barrett. Parents of effected children know more about this issue of what happened to their children that regressed after vaccines, than the all so so arrogant so called professionals.

  224. October 11, 2010 at 11:46 am

    Dr. Steven Barrett Oh! That’s no longer Dr. he lost his License

    Misinformation (or falsehood, you decide)
    Dr. Barrett retired some +15 years ago, after a long and distinguished career. Maintaining one’s medical license involves no small amount of expense and time, in terms of licensing fees, insurance, and continuing medical education. There’s no reason for a retired physician to maintain the license.

    Your story about your conversation with Dr. Barrett is just hearsay. Readers wanting to know why the US begins the hepatitis B vaccine at birth should read http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2849, Why Universal Hepatitis B Vaccination Isn’t Quite Universal, by Joseph Albietz MD, a pediatric intensive care specialist.

    Your claim that “90 % of all child hood diseases was taken care of by clean water, sanitation, and nutrition”, is false, but nonetheless part of the catechism repeated endlessly by the anti-vaccinationists. No amount of evidence seems to shift this belief.

  225. joe
    October 11, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    Shannon Liz Tom is this the words of your hero and employer????

    “I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” With those words former Merck CEO Henry Gadsden established the aim of the entire pharmaceutical industry more than 30 years ago. With that aim, a monster was born. A monster that feeds on public tax dollars and then passes a portion of those dollars back to “public servants.”

    He did what he said, and the current health of this nation show it. And his
    minions of deceit are carrying on today in the same manner. In Australia
    Merck is on trial for having a hit list for Dr’s and researchers that had the
    guts to speak against the product Vioxx, There words were we will discredit
    some others we will seek them out and destroy them where they live.
    I guess that statement is left for interpretation of how far would these criminals will go to hurt Dr’s and researchers. Oh they then said they would
    interfere with academia chair appointments. In other words we will create
    junk science in the university’s and the morons of the world, of this world will except it.
    In a Congressional hearing on Vaccines causing Autism, Congressman Burton said I usually don’t quote the Bible. But I will make an exception today “the Bible says there is none so blind as those who will see”

    I believe in your cases, the Pharma lovers here it Could be.
    ” there is none so blind as those who are paid very handsomely to not see”

    You really want us to believe a mother some where just happens to have an Autistic child and loves vaccines enough to want to start a blog about how her Autistic child will have his or her vaccines. This is a blog set up by Pharma and the CDC, because the people are waking up to the Dangers of Vaccines and not vaccinating. Isn’t it funny the CDC studied who is non vaccinaters, and to their surprise lo and behold it was the More educated
    and intelligent that was not vaccinating their children. That speaks volumes
    and maybe it is because the more educated and intelligent people can read and comprehend the fake research. Speaking of fake research the Co. Merck had the prestigious maker of journals Elsevier which publishes medical and scientific literature to create 6 fake journals for them.
    So much for that saying they always hit Autistic family’s with;

    “is that study peer reviewed and in a prestigious journal” What a freaking
    JOKE they have become for whoring them selves out to Pharma.

    I have no problem quoting the Bible, ever! It says;
    “you will know them by there fruits”.

  226. joe
    October 11, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    A correction for the last post of mine, I left out the word that means the most and when quoting Gods word I want to be as correct as humanly possible.

    The word I left out was NOT! And you on this article, most do not see!or are paid to not SEE!

    In a Congressional hearing on Vaccines causing Autism, Congressman Burton said I usually don’t quote the Bible. But I will make an exception today “the Bible says there is none so blind as those who will not see”

  227. joe
    October 11, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Liz, Shannon, and Tom what do you do, when you are not putting out fires on
    Vaccine articles? Are you Dr’s or researchers?

    What do you do for a living?????

  228. October 11, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Readers can check out my blog at http://www.squidalicious.com. Over 2,000 posts since 2003, documenting my son’s diagnosis, and my journey from fear-induced, emotionally-susceptible vaccine avoider to informed vaccination advocate.

    Since most readers don’t have the inclination or free time to read 2,200 posts, I wrote this article as a summary of what we’ve learned, and how the evidence tide has shifted since 2003. I was paid by the agenda-free site BlogHer to write the original version; the update was a volunteer effort for The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism. Shot of Prevention asked to republish the post *as is* on this blog.

    All this information is freely available on the Internet. There is no conspiracy; there are only your conspiracy theories.

  229. October 11, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Joe wrote,

    You really want us to believe a mother some where just happens to have an Autistic child and loves vaccines enough to want to start a blog about how her Autistic child will have his or her vaccines.

    Joe, I suggest that you sharpen your reading comprehension and research skills. The postscript to Shannon’s essay reports that this essay has been published twice previously, first on May 5 2009 at BlogHer. A second version was published September 27 2010 at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism.

    The editors of this blog asked Shannon for permission to republish here.

    The rest of your argument resolves to a fallacious chain of reasoning
    1. There has been some corruption in the scientific press, namely in some peer reviewed journals
    2. Evidence showing that vaccines are not causal in autism has been published in peer reviewed journals
    3. Therefore all evidence that vaccines are not causal in autism is corrupt and can be discarded.

  230. Rebecca
    October 11, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    This is a very poorly done study fraught with issues. The first thing I noted was no conflict of interest statement- always a red flag! I recommend reading this blog http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/too_much_vaccineautism_monkey_business_f.php

  231. John Fryer Chemist
    October 11, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Hi Shannon

    Your post arouses much passion.

    First we know that mercury is not an essential for autism and that sadly there are known cases where autism spectrum parents do give rise to autism spectrum children. Professor Burt spent much time explaining and proving in peer reviewed papers. We have moved on from this simplistic position.

    There are half a dozen or so ways of being autistic without involving mercury.

    You may well be in one of these.

    But the rise in autism is large and researchers have been looking for chemical causes for decades.

    The deliberate addition of thimerosal was not known to lots of people including those who control safety of vaccines. This is fact.

    Methyl mercury is not the only poisonous mercury compound. Every mercury compound is highly toxic. This necessarily includes thimerosal and any difference in toxicity will be minimal and in some ways thimerosal is more toxic than methyl mercury. This is fact.

    Bayer tried to claim thimerosal was nothing to worry about and got a very sound reminder that it is HIGHLY TOXIC.

    While mercury compounds rest in vaccines deliberately and unnecessarily added NO SANE person can do anything but to demand the abandonment of this practice.

    The issues are highly complex but this is a simple unassailable fact.

    We know that any such addition similar to that in flu vaccines of 2010 makes them toxic even after 100 fold dilution.

    Is this sensible when completely non toxic flu vaccine is available and has never sold out?

    I am a chemist and as qualified and knowledgeable on mercury than probably one person in amillion knowing more than me. This is not being big headed but just a fact of my long experience.

    Mercury is probably causing much more harm than autism and will be recognised one day for its role in destroying the protection from radiations from the solar flares etc.

  232. Rebecca
    October 11, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    I have never posted a reply to anything on the internet, but feel called to do so in reading these replies. Shannon, loved your post.

    I am a pediatrician.

    How much do I personally pocket from being in cahoots with big pharma by being a doctor? Zero dollars. What about extra reimbursement when I spend 45 minutes discussing immunizations with people? Zero dollars. We bill for the vaccine, and the administration fee, which typically just recoups the actual cost of the vaccine itself, and in some cases for pediatricians it’s actually at a loss financially, especially when you consider refrigeration and handling costs, etc.

    I think it’s important to look at where people’s motivation lies, which is often financial. The time I spend encouraging immunizations is spent because I care about the health of children and don’t want to see kids get ill and die of preventable disease. In fact, I could make more money if I just said to parents, “ok whatever you want is fine” and go on to see more patients. But I don’t.

    Look at where the motivation lies when you’re on an anti-vaccine website, that is promoting books, DVDs, T-shirts, expensive (non-regulated) “child wellness vitamin packages” at $200 a month, etc. Look at where the motivation lies when someone publishes a poorly done paper about monkeys and omits the conflict of interest of the author being invovled in the Autism Omnibus lawsuit!

    It is not Shannon’s fault that she cannot prove what causes autism, and those hung up on the no proof of harm verbage don’t understand science. There’s no proof that wearing a green hat will make me have a bad day. But the science of it is that There is no proof wearing a green hat makes me have a bad day.

    It is unfortunate that the time and money being spent on the autism vaccine debate isn’t being able to be used for more promising research and treatment for autism.

  233. Michelle
    October 11, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Virginia,

    Smallpox was not “pulled from the market because the risks outweighed the benefit” It was announced by the World Health Organization in 1979 that the disease had been eradicated by very strong vaccination campaigns worldwide. The last known natural case was in 1977 with one laboratory accident causing a case in 1978. The United States military still gives their active duty members the small pox vaccine, as protection from a possible biological warfare agent, since many countries still have the virus in their laboratories.
    As a registered nurse, I feel compassion for those parents of children afflicted by many diseases. I know, as part of my nursing education, that is it human nature to want to blame something/someone for misfortune, disease etc. It is part of the coping process. There are many diseases, especially neurological diseases that we do not know enough about to find a cause. Unfortunately, many times there is no proven cause, so vaccination is an easy target for grieving parents. Let’s face it, that is what most parents do when faced with a diagnosis like autism, they are grieving for the child they pictured the whole time they were expecting their child until diagnosis.
    I do not get paid to endorse vaccination, I get paid to take the best care of my patients that I can. One of the best ways I can do that is to educate parents, and vaccinate their children. If a parent wants to space out their vaccines, that is their right, as long as they are making informed decisions and not listening to “fear mongering”.
    And, yes, my children are fully vaccinated. So are most of the children in my practice. As one mother of an autistic child said to me last month, “I knew there was something different about him (her autistic child) from the minute he was born, when he just looked around and didn’t cry” She has accepted him for the way he is, and concentrates her efforts to working with him every day to improve and build up his skill levels.
    I wish more parents were spending their energy working with speech, physical and occupational therapists rather than trying to find a cause. Hopefully, science will find a cause/cure for many diseases. We have come a long way in the just 200 years since we thought that “evil eyes” and “bad humors” caused disease, many of these diseases have been around for thousands of years, it will take a while to find a cure for them all!!

  234. Dynamentope
    October 11, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    What about all the children that have died from encephalitis as a complication of vaccination?

  235. Michelle
    October 11, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Kelly, that was probably not whooping cough, what you are describing is the standard treatment for croup, which can be caused by many viruses and bacteria.

  236. October 11, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Dynamentope,
    The death of any child is a tragedy, for whatever reason.

    You are asserting that vaccines routinely cause encephalitis resulting in death. Carl Sagan said, “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.” Therefore, please provide evidence of the following nature:
    1. The name of the vaccine alleged to have caused encephalitis
    2. Number of children who have died from encephalitis as a consequence of vaccine administration, including the source of your information. (A hint: Whale.to and Shirley’s Wellness Cafe aren’t creditable sources )
    3. A comparative table listing mortality from the disease the vaccine is protecting against.

    Any vaccine, as in any other medical intervention, is not and cannot be made 100% safe. Demanding otherwise is known as the “Nirvana Fallacy”. What can be demanded: that using a vaccine has significant less risk than exposure to the disease the vaccine prevents.

  237. Dynamentope
    October 11, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    I don’t assert any such thing. I never said vaccines ROUTINELY cause encephalitis, but there is plenty of proof that it ‘s a known, yet rare, adverse reaction. Encephalitis as a complication of measles is also rare. I don’t claim to know everything about vaccines, I just know that they scare me. I’m afraid of both what will happen if I choose to vaccinate my children and what will happen if I don’t. I’m afraid I’m a bit of a fence sitter, currently favouring not to vaccinate my children any more. Unfortunately, I don’t believe I have yet found irrefutable evidence to sway me either way. I will not be fooled when 3 innocent lives are on the line. I know many healthcare professionals who refuse some or all vaccination, yet, they are not immunologists. Is there really any hard evidence in studies that have no conflict of interest? Enough to convince anyone in either direction?
    Definitely lost and confused. I am always looking for more information and opinions!

  238. John Fryer Chemist
    October 11, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Liz Ditz talks of encephalitis and where is the proof.

    Encephalitis is a known problem for example from pertussis vaccines and it is actually used to induce encephalitis.

    Examples not quoting two people or organisations that have been investigating for years the vaccine problem.

    I personally know of cases where this has happened but in the real world it is the parents what get the blame and no shame for the vaccine.

    Take Harry Clark vaccinated at 4.30pm and dead by 10.30pm. This is a little worse than a bit of head swelling after a vaccine and both the family and the experts all agreed vaccines were not to blame for killing a healthy boy.

    One fallacy evident is that this boy without vaccines or delivered without mercury might just be alive today.

    Yes people do get ill and die from fatal illness eg AIDS or even trivial illness for the most part eg the flu.

    But the chances are very high they would be different people.

    So it is a no win situation whatever you do.

    But when you inject mercury into HEALTHY people they may die.

    To date around the world there have been more than a million deaths to infants since 1969 AFTER mercury vaccines.

    The evidence and names of many can be found and my friend in the 1970′s as an ambulance driver went to three such SIDS in a small village community.

    We need to check and double check vaccine safety and everyone needs to be calling for the same thing.

    Yes vaccines are good but they are for HEALTHY people and we deserve the best. Not vaccines where poisons are DELIBERATELY added as at October 2010 with the flu vaccine.

  239. Michelle
    October 11, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Please cite your sources of all the cut an pasting you have been doing on this blog. I would be interested to know where you are getting your information. Thanks

  240. Michelle
    October 11, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    You wrote:
    “Even today without argument and debate there are many vaccine options taken in the USA that xould be illegal in MANY other countries.

    Sadly many vaccines not in the USA would be ILLEGAL in the USA.”

    Please cite your source. Thank you.

  241. John Fryer Chemist
    October 11, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    Hi Shannon

    It is interesting you were paid for your article.

    I have worked on chemicals and health for more than 15 years and in that time have been paid nothing.

    To be honest I was paid to go to the first vCJD conference back in the late 1990′s but even here it cost me a hotel and travel out of my own pocket.

    I guess that it has cost me several thousands of pounds to go and argue my corner on poisons wnd why authorities make the public exposed to them.

    The idea of putting thimerosal into a babies vaccine and now in October 2010 into the pre-born child before he or she has developed is revolting in the extreme and deserves not just to be stopped but those involved to be brought to book.

    Are we to know if the money you earned was worth it?

  242. October 11, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Thank you for your exemplary demonstration of how information can be taken out of context and misused.

    BlogHer paid me to write the original article, yes. I am their contributing editor for parenting kids with special needs. I get paid for every column I write for them, whether about Halloween fun for kids with autism, or why I don’t let my children listen to bad pop music. Or how my attitudes towards vaccines have changed over time. It’s a parenting column. All the topics are my own choices.

    Shot of Prevention has not paid me for republishing this article. To assert otherwise means you either glossed over my previous comment, or deliberately misappropriated it. Either option undermines your credibility.

  243. Orange Lantern
    October 11, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Wow, Liz! Way to go!

  244. October 11, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Dear Dynamentope,
    I sincerely apologize for my rather brusque tone in my previous reply.

    I understand your fearfulness, as I have been the mother of young children and now am the grandmother of an infant and two young children.

    As far as the relative risks of diseases vs. vaccination, I have a somewhat different point of view, as I am old enough to have been exposed to — and in some cases, suffered– the diseases we now vaccinate against. I would not want my child to have (for examples) either measles or mumps — not just for the risk of encephalitis, but for the sheer misery of having either disease.

    As far as central nervous system (CNS) conditions such as including encephalitis and encephalopathy go, I have some bad news and some good news.

    The bad news is that children can and do develop CNS conditions for unknown reasons, unrelated to either vaccines or vaccine-preventable diseases. The thing is, it’s very very rare.

    Here is my point of view: If we, as parents, go around scaring ourselves with very rare risks…well, I feel we aren’t doing our children any favors.

    Now, on to the good news about CNS conditions and vaccination: the rate of
    encephalitis or encephalopathy after measles vaccination is that it is also very rare: less than 1 in a million. There’s a condition that follows measles infection: Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE). Since the measles vaccine was introduced, cases of SSPE have almost disappeared.

    I know many healthcare professionals who refuse some or all vaccination,

    Well, if you include chiropractors in the ranks of “health care professionals”, you should know that many schools of chiropractic (at least here in the US) actively teach that immunizations are unneccessary; individual chiropractors also preach against vaccines.

    Is there really any hard evidence in studies that have no conflict of interest?

    I am not sure what you mean by “conflicts of interest”.

    One website I can recommend is the CDC’s page on monitoring vaccine safety:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccine_Monitoring/Index.html

    Another is the Institute for Vaccine Safety at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Medicine

    http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/

    Please let me know if the sites referenced meet your standards for freedom from conflict of interest, or tell me more about your ideas on conflicts of interest and vaccine safety.

    References

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

    http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/subacute_panencephalitis/subacute_panencephalitis.htm

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/105/4/e43

  245. Michelle
    October 11, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    You presented a lot of information, I would really like to see where you got this information. Please cite your sources, specifically in regards to your statements “actually used to induce encephalitis” and “To date around the world there have been more than a million deaths to infants since 1969 AFTER mercury vaccines.”

    Also, I disagree with your assertion that the flu is a “trivial illness”. As a registered nurse, I have cared for many hospitalized patients with the flu, most recently on a stepdown unit during last year’s H1N1 outbreak. Those patients were truly sick some had just come off a ventilator, and I don’t think they would think their illness was “trivial”.
    The little girl that I cared for several years ago on a pediatric ward would probably think her chickenpox was not “trivial” when she had cellulitis of a lesion on her vulva.

    I saw first hand what Japanese Encephalitis will do to an otherwise healthy young man. I wanted to be first in line for the vaccine while stationed in Japan, even after reading the risks. Those young men were someone’s son, husband, father. They left Japan broken, a shadow of their former selves. That was caused by a disease, not a vaccine. Thank God, the military requires their service members to be properly vaccinated before going to certain areas of Asia where that disease is prevalent!

    As a parent with a daughter that has an autoimmune disorder, I am much more afraid of the flu virus rather than the vaccine. I can protect her without exposing her to the live virus (through the vaccine and educating her about the importance of strategies to avoid infection). Her autoimmune disorder was initially brought on by a strep infection, not a vaccine by the way.
    As I posted earlier, I have compassion for parents whose children have a chronic health condition. I wish them well and it is my hope that those that are so angry and hurting will use their energy and resources to help their child progress rather than finger pointing and belittling those that are trying to save thousands of children from vaccine preventable diseases.

  246. Sara
    October 11, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    You should be scared. There is good reason to be. Chronic illnesses and neurological disorders in children are at an all time high. But Liz doesn’t think you have a right to be concerned unless you can provide her with some sort of graph.

    Even the contributors here concede that an environmental trigger is at play. They are not sure what it is, but they are darn sure what it isn’t. For the rest of us, vaccines are not off the table. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, indeed…

  247. Tom
    October 11, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    Dynamentope:

    Which commenters here seem more credible to you: The ones who clearly and concisely cite specific scientific data to make their points, or the ones who incoherently ramble about conspiracies and throw up links that direct you (mostly) to opinion pieces?

    Which commenters seem more credible: The ones who maintain their composure while they present their evidence, or the ones who shout at you angrily in all caps if you don’t immediately swallow what they tell you?

    Which commenters seem more credible: The ones who actually provide evidence, or the ones who are outraged that anyone would have the nerve to demand evidence in the first place?

  248. Chris
    October 11, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    I’m in a rush, so I can’t comment much.

    Dr. Gary S Goldman, Board Certified Physician

    Gary S. Goldman is not a physician. His PhD is in computer science:

    http://www.injectionbook.com/aboutresearcher.html

  249. October 11, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Sara wrote above:

    You should be scared. There is good reason to be.

    Unfortunately, Sara doesn’t quantify her assertions. Let us take just one childhood condition, asthma. Yes, asthma has increased — but there’s good reason to think it doesn’t have to do with vaccination, but with the many other changes that have occurred in American childrearing patterns over the last 50 years.

    More from Sara:

    But Liz doesn’t think you have a right to be concerned unless you can provide her with some sort of graph.

    Sara has formidable talents to twist language to suit her ends.

    Let me be as clear as I can be: every action we take, either for ourselves or on behalf of our children, has both risks and benefits. Staying in bed has risks. Getting out of bed has risks. Driving your children in your car has risks. All of these have to be put into perspective, both in terms of the relative risk and the relative benefit.

    No, Sara, I’m not asking for “some kind of graph”. What I was asking Dynamentope was to put her fears in context.

  250. October 11, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    What we are stating, repeatedly, is that the hypothesis that vaccines and autism are associated or that mercury in vaccines and autism are associated has failed to withstand challenge, time and time again. It’s a dead hypothesis. That doesn’t mean in any way that any of us is arguing that there’s no interaction of environment and genes here; indeed, it would be idiotic to argue that, as any gene is under the influence of environmental factors. But that’s not what’s been asserted; what’s been asserted here is that an environmental factor–vaccines or mercury–causes autism. And that assertion finds no scientific support.

  251. October 11, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    I’d like to point out here that measles is associated with encephalitis, which actually develops in 1 in 1000-5000 cases of measles. It’s a terrible complication of measles that can spirit away a seemingly recovering child–as in, the child dies, not “autism stole my child”–within a day.

    An example, Roald Dahl’s daughter, Olivia, who died at age 7 of measles encephalitis:

    http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715

  252. Sara
    October 11, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    How about the credibility of one who can’t even convince the person he shares a bed with?

  253. October 11, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    @Sara Maybe they sleep in twin beds, like couples in 40s movies. What does that have to do with anything…except that it certainly is an apt demonstration of the kinds of personal attacks that I’ve seen frequently used to take the place of offering any relevant contribution from the antivax side. I’m glad you posted it, Sara, because it is revelatory for any reader who’s managing to trace this thread. Speaks volumes about credibility, more so than any reference to intramarital disagreements about causation.

    Actually, Tom, what Sara references here is of interest probably to many families who likely find themselves in your situation. I’m sure you’re not alone as a couple who isn’t in lockstep on every topic related to autism. I know that my husband and I aren’t, though on a minor level that relates to our comfort with it as a whole.

  254. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 6:33 am

    Hi Shannon

    Either option undermines my credibility.

    Why not just say I dont believe you.

    Vaccine harm admitted is bad but the hidden disputed side may be catastrophic.

    Harvey Fineberg et al wrote a book on pertussis back 20 years ago where they admitted up to 1 bad reaction in 100 000.

    Now this is safe enough for most people and I admit to being glad to get the smallpox vaccine when these figures for safety were accurate.

    If you do the sums this means one vaccine can knock out 2 500 people and harm them significantly. For the increasing numbers of vaccines this rises to 25 000 plus admitted bad side effects.

    We all agree we dont want bad illnesses which are easily protected. But also we dont want thousands of dead and dying from vaccines either.

    Its not easy but for me to add thimerosal deliberately and unnecessarily is not an option.

    I cant see much comeback on this issue except to talk of methylmercury as being dangerous. So too is thimerosal.

    A lot of work on vaccine harm goes back before computer days and so is only available in books or old journals.

    And of course there is the matter of nine out of ten papers suppressed because the messages are not good.

    I think if we are honest we may be arguing that yes for any case an autism may be non vaccine related and that for most vaccines are just fine.

    But humanity dictates we must accept harm done and not just DENY DENY DENY them any justice or worse accuse them of doing the harm.

  255. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 7:00 am

    Give me a break. He was mocking the credibility of everyone else. One for simply using all caps. Poking fun at his own was justified.

    You seem to be A-OK with personal attacks from anyone except those who question vaccines, even in rebuttal. And that will also be crystal clear to any reader following this thread.

    I doubt many families would relate to Tom’s situation. It’s definitely of no interest to me. I married my best friend, my soul mate.

  256. NettyM
    October 12, 2010 at 8:44 am

    My bottom line: I’d rather have an autistic child than a dead one.
    So regardless of what you believe about vaccinations and autism, remember that autism isn’t a death sentence, and the risk of not vaccinating could be. (Even if it’s not for the child receiving the vaccine. Many of the children who have died from pertussis recently have been too young to even receive the shot, but were exposed to the disease by someone else. Those babies didn’t even have a chance.)

  257. October 12, 2010 at 10:15 am

    I’m amazed at the circus the comments have become, and the attacks on Shannon’s credibility—which really, there is NO doubt about. Obviously, parents do what they think is best for their children. But Shannon has laid out a clear and convincing argument that vaccines do not cause autism, bolstered by other comments here. Bolstered, too, by the plain fact that the original so-called study on the topic was revoked.

  258. October 12, 2010 at 11:27 am

    I find it telling that someone who claims to be a chemist, and therefore a scientist, is staking his arguments on 1) beliefs about my credibility that can be dispelled with five minutes of research — when his own name is unlinked, and credibility unverifiable and 2) erroneous and outdated information about mercury in vaccines that can also be dismissed with five minutes of research, or by following the links in the original post.

    The fact that you can repeatedly type such opinions into a comment thread does not make them correct, nor does it make them useful — except to demonstrate how unreliable antivaccination arguments are, given that they are belief- or misinformation-based rather than evidence- based.

  259. Laura
    October 12, 2010 at 11:30 am

    Shannon, you have written a terrific piece, as always. I have read your entire blog over the years, and I am so thankful that you take the time to share your intelligence, research and sharp wit with the rest of us. My two 10-month-old twin girls are fully vaccinated, and because of all your well-reasoned information on the topic, I never hesitated. Thank you for all that you do.

  260. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 11:36 am

    So I have a little bit of time this morning to go through this a bit more.

    There was this common theme, the Pharma Shill Gambit:

    Beth B: “When doctors who get money from the pharmaceutical companies (i.e. who have serious conflicts of interest), like Offit, keep stating that vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies cannot be done as they are unethical, ”

    Rita: “This is nothing more than a Paid Pharma Blog.”… “GO AWAY PHARMA SHILLS AND PAID BLOGGERS!”…”Since the CDC and Big Pharma wont financially benefit from non- vaccination, they wont do the study.” … from someone who started out with “It was just obvious that there was a vaccination adjenda in the blog,” To which I have to ask, what did you think the name this website means?

    joe: “reasons to request documentation of all payments from Big Pharma to NIH scientists.”… “I believe in your cases, the Pharma lovers here it Could be.’there is none so blind as those who are paid very handsomely to not see’”…”This is a blog set up by Pharma and the CDC,” …”What a freaking JOKE they have become for whoring them selves out to Pharma.”… “Shannon Liz Tom is this the words of your hero and employer???? “I want to sell drugs to everyone.”‘ …. though joe, aka Joe Harris, aka ccdaddy resorted to this tactic when his copious amounts of cut and paste were not taken as truth.

    Marsha McClelland: “Those who represent profit of big business who call themselves, Quackbusters are the same writers & docs that make up Science Based Medicine “…. “Like, do they have ties with dishonest people with vested interests such as in the pharmaceutical industry? ”

    Let’s start with Ms. McClelland, weighing in at 33 comments as she used a technique called a “Gish Gallop.” This is where she through in news reports, webpages and some actual studies that were not really relevant. Liz Ditz did a remarkable job trying to dissect them, but Ms. McClelland has absolutely no intention of taking in any new information.

    For instance, does Ms. McClelland still think Gary S. Goldman has a MD, when on his own website (that I posted) he says his PhD is in computer science. If she got that simple fact completely wrong, how good is the rest of her cut and pastes?

    And again we have Mr. John Fryer, the retired chemist. He is making the all too familiar statements without evidence. At least he has stopped using the bold face lie that before age one. Though it took multiple attempts to educate him.

  261. Rebecca
    October 12, 2010 at 11:45 am

    I have 3 kids, 2 with autism, and all are vaccinated.

    A comment that interested me was that somehow “Big Pharma” has it in for our kids and only wants to make money from vaccines. Most vacs are given 1 or 2 times, maybe 3 with a booster later, over a whole life time. Even once a year shots like flu for entire populations don’t bring in big bucks. High colesterol and blood pressure meds? They get taken every day for years and years. That’s where the money is.

  262. Danielle Romaguera
    October 12, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    This was beautifully written and I am so appreciative that you wrote this article. For those of you who are still not believers that vaccines are the safest way to go for your child let me just explain what a child with a deadly disease like pertussis goes through when contracted. I remember when my daughter was in PICU thinking I never what any photographs of her in this condition because I did not want to remember this horrible time, but now I wish I had those photographs to show to others what can happen. First Brie started coughing so severely that she was turning purple and then blue around the mouth, lack of oxygen. Eventually when she would cough she would then pass out. Once she was admitted to the hospital she was put on oxygen, then a ventilator. Neither of these things would keep up with her. She then had to be put on ECMO, which is a form of life support. She had to be sedated, so she would just lay there. When she was on ECMO she had about 5 machines connected to her and two nurses and one respitory therapist working on her at all times. Many of her organs began to fail. She filled with fluid, so she became about 10 times the normal size of a baby. When she was put on ECMO she had to have a blood thinner, which eventually causd her to bleed in her brain twice. After that she had to be taken off of ECMO. She could only live for 30 minutes on her own. She died in my arms just 7 days short of when she would have been able to receive her first pertussis vaccine. I have had many people tell me to vaccinate their child is their choice. What I have to say to them is that my daughter was too young to be vaccinated. In her two months of life she only went two places, her grandmothers and her doctor visit. When your choice affects the life of my child it becomes my concern. When your choice causes my daughter to suffer the way she did, and it was 3 weeks of suffering through this disease, it becomes my concern. When your choice causes the pain that my family had to suffer on burying a newborn, it becomes my concern. When did we as a society stop thinking of each other and only started worrying about our own well being. This diseases do not need to exist anymore, we have the answers on how to stop them – Vaccines and boosters. If we could as a community could start making sure our children were protected and these diseases were eliminated, then more time and money could be taken on finding answers to our autism questions. Also, lives of innocent children would be saved.

  263. October 12, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    ScienceMom does a wonderful job of debunking Dr. Bob’s anti-vaccination mendacity on the clip above

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2010/10/dr-bob-sears-and-fox-friends.html

    Since Dr. Paul Offit and Dr. John Snyder have already critiqued Dr. Bob’s schedules, I don’t feel compelled to reiterate their reviews. However, it does bear repeating that Dr. Bob’s schedules have not been tested for safety and efficacy; he merely assumes that his recommendations are better because he has set up numerous faulty assertions that the CDC schedule is bad. He cannot say that his schedules are safer because he has never put them through the rigours of testing, namely, do they protect infants from vaccine preventable diseases that they would otherwise not have and do his schedules prevent all of the bogey-man disorders that he claims fully vaccinating do or may cause? He has done nothing to alleviate the fears and concerns that parents have since his book is rife with dubious studies that only serve to incite parental concerns and fears about vaccinating.

    Dr. Sears creates controversy surrounding vaccine excipients where there really isn’t any, by either misinterpreting or omitting relevant scientific literature. It is a shame that Dr. Bob has chosen to pander to anti-vaccine rhetoric, for the premise of his book seemed appropriately timely, however his execution was sophomoric and clearly intended to further his own agenda and biases.

  264. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    People here get very heated and we need to look at what is right for children.

    Yes vaccines are very necessary but they have to be very very safe.

    I am still waiting to see a reply to why we use brain destroying mercury compounds when they are deliberately and unnecessarily added.

    There are other concerns and despite what people say my information is that Japan did abandon vaccines for a short while until the age of 2 years.

    Clearly they do vaccine today but compare their schedule to the USA. No vaccines needed before 3 months and the normal age is 4 months for commencement. They do give BCG when very young unlike UK which have stopped it and it was never given normally until the children were 13 or so. France also gave this vaccine at birth and have now stopped it.

    Not because the illness has gone as we still get as much as ever.

    This is another problem that vaccines need to be given over and over working against our best interests as each repeat raises the chances of adverse reactions.

    Giving rubella for example to children at age 1 or less is insane for a different reason as we know rubella causes autism and to have live viruses deliberately around moms of child bearing age may be another serious cause for the rise in autism.

    Whatever the benefits are for vaccines we have to conquer the neurological harm in children in USA running at levels of one in three.

    The worldwide numbers of chiuldren around the world with these problems means that something is causing it and vaccines seem to tie in with numbers.

    This would mean autism in Japan is predictably low but this without checking actual values.

  265. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Minor oops: the second to last sentence should be: “bold face lie that Japan did not vaccinate children before age one”

  266. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    The assertion that vaccines are not profitable for pharmaceutical companies is a complete fallacy. Both drugs and vaccines are lucrative. Vaccines have the added appeal of being mandated and subsidized by the government and of liability protection from all of those pesky little lawsuits that can hurt the bottom line.

    “The vaccine market is currently at the center of attraction for all leading pharmaceutical giants, says “Global Vaccine Market Outlook (2007-2010)”, a market research report by RNCOS. The report says that the vaccine market is registering growth rates much faster than the conventional pharma market. And with several blockbuster potential vaccines slated to hit the market in near future, the growth is projected to rise even faster.

    The report forecasts that the global vaccine market will surpass the US$ 21 Billion by 2010. “

  267. October 12, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    There is no heat, there is only a request for you to substantiate even one of the claims you have laid out — they are all, every last one of them, outdated misinformation.

  268. October 12, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    Please accept my condolences for the loss of your beautiful little girl. Also please accept my thanks for your courage in sharing her story.

  269. October 12, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Rebecca didn’t write that vaccines weren’t profitable, she wrote that they aren’t profitable the way daily meds are.

    Please rebut what is actually written, and try to stay on topic.

  270. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    John Fryer:

    There are other concerns and despite what people say my information is that Japan did abandon vaccines for a short while until the age of 2 years.

    Indeed they did, but you are lying by omission if you leave out the consequences. Yes, the SIDS could no longer be blamed on vaccines that were not given… and it was only the diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis vaccine that was stopped. See:
    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
    Watanabe M, Nagai M.

    Which says:

    An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

    So it took 41 infant deaths to realize that withholding the DPT was a flawed strategy. Why do you neglect to mention those deaths when you cite Japan?

    Japan’s MMR had the Urabe mumps strain, so they stopped using it. As a result measles came back with several stillbirths, hospitalizations and the closing of school campuses. It also caused immense embarrassment to be the source of imported measles to other countries:
    Intern Med. 2010;49(18):1965-70. Epub 2010 Sep 15.
    Measles-related hospitalizations and complications in Japan, 2007-2008.
    Yasunaga H, Shi Y, Takeuchi M, Horiguchi H, Hashimoto H, Matsuda S, Ohe K.

    J Travel Med. 2008 Mar-Apr;15(2):82-6.
    Measles exportation from Japan to the United States, 1994 to 2006.
    Takahashi H, Saito H.

    BACKGROUND: Imported measles cases and outbreaks involving Japanese travelers have been reported from the United States and other countries. For the United States, Japan is the top country of origin. The aims of this study were to analyze measles exportation trends from Japan to the United States and to suggest recommendations for improving monitoring and control in both countries.

    So they started to vaccinate with a measles/rubella, MR vaccine, but not mumps. So kids are losing their hearing:
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
    An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.
    Hashimoto H, Fujioka M, Kinumaki H; Kinki Ambulatory Pediatrics Study Group.

    The incidence of hearing loss in children due to mumps was 7/7400 (approximately 1/1000 cases), which is higher than previously suggested. Prevention of deafness is another important reason for assuring universal immunization against mumps.

    Stopping the MMR vaccine did affect the rates of autism diagnosis in Japan:
    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
    Uchiyama T et al.
    J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
    *Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder
    (Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

    Newsflash, Mr. Fryer: autism exists in Japan at about the same level as any other industrial country. About the only differences are cultural, something you would understand if you read Unstrange Minds by R.R. Grinker.

    Giving rubella for example to children at age 1 or less is insane for a different reason as we know rubella causes autism and to have live viruses deliberately around moms of child bearing age may be another serious cause for the rise in autism.

    Are you a liar or just so ill informed? The MMR vaccine, which has rubella, is only given when a child is more than a year old. Rubella causes autism to a child before they are born! It is when a mother is infected by rubella while she is pregnant. You might want to do a little reading about the 1960s rubella epidemic (as soon as I am done with a library book I will be reading her new book about it: Dangerous Pregnancies).

    Now, Mr. Fryer, stop lying. Stop making statements that say one thing but leave out crucial bits of information. And learn to provide actual references. PubMed is not that hard to use.

  271. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Ooops another very important missing word! One sentence should read:

    Stopping the MMR vaccine did not affect the rates of autism diagnosis in Japan:

  272. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Vaccines have the added appeal of being mandated

    Where are vaccines mandated? In the USA the only two states that do not allow a philosophical exemption do have private schools and allow homeschooling. Do you live somewhere that has public health officials going door to door forcing vaccines on you?

    Having had a child taken by ambulance (which we were billed for) to the children’s hosptial ER (which we were billed for) due to seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease… I am curious how preventing a disease is more cost effective than hospital care (which even with insurance paying 80%, it is a whole lot more than going to the clinic to complete the entire vaccine schedule!)? Can you tell me how much the medical establishment gets if everyone skips the MMR vaccine and pay for the hospitalizations that result? With something along this line:
    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
    Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.

  273. Poogles
    October 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Wow, aren’t you a douche-nozzle.

  274. October 12, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Danielle, thank you for your bravery and compassion in sharing your and Brie’s story.

  275. October 12, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Poogles, let’s avoid the name-calling, please. As believers in a behavioral approach to communication, we don’t recommend or reinforce negative behaviors. :)

  276. October 12, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    Poogles, we are trying to keep the tone civil around here –no namecalling.

    However, Parent’s allegation that Shannon wishes to harm her son is a vile, ghoulish lie. Parent should be ashamed.

  277. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Vaccines are for the great part safe but they do have the capacity to harm not least if you add poisons like ercury when it is not necessary.

    Even at safety levels most parents would accpet for their child there are lots of harmed children and the common sense view is that vaccines have a part to play.

    Hence thousands trying to get compensation.

    The snag is that it is almost impossible as you take on the government aginst itself.

    One famous mother in the UK after an 18 year battle.

    Most just lose their time and their money and some even go to prison for possible vaccine harm.

    Is it no wonder then that if denied in court they will try to put their point over in a less stacked environment.

    We know from much research exactly what sorts of harm to expect but many are just legislated out by arbitrary and changing rules.

    Anaphylaxis for example gets timed out after just 4 hours in many countries. So a death at 6 hours is down to the parents to explain and means charges of murder, manslaughter or harm often if not always follow.

    We are dealing with conspiracy to force vaccines and repeat them and take the blame for anything that goes wrong.

    It is no wonder parents with harmed children after vaccines see injustice, conspiracy and more.

  278. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    Hi Chris

    No one is saying the vaccine debate is easy.

    And no one is always right.

    Every time you open your mouth you can commit huge gaffs.

    But again you have to try to condense 200 years of work by tens of thousands of vaccine scientists into one debate so how can you but over simplify.

    Sadly they do give MMR to infants under 1 years of age and like you it is tantamount to murder and insanity so we can agree. I honestly believe it is done using babies as guinea pigs.

    In UK it was common to give DTP at 3 months and one lady researcher doing no research recommended an accelerated vaccination policy.

    This also to me is insanity that continues in 2010 UK.

    We allow nothing for the built in resistance babies are known to have until 6 months of age.

    And autism if proved to be part vaccine related causes tens of millions of damaged infants and makes the benefits of vaccination less sure.

    Goping into rubella in more detail yes there is a window at which autism occurs and a child with live rubella COULD pass this infection on to a mother in labour and even to his or her own mother in labour and hence to the child in the womb. This is my own hypothesis without proof but if the vaccine virus is not sufficient to show as illness in the mother could it be sufficient to cause autism?

    We know for example both deformity and autism arises for a pre-natal baby from thalidomide while leaving the mother actually in better health than without the drug. and again we know massive doses of thalidomide can do nothing for the baby and leave him or her perfectly normal at birth.

    Issues are NOT simple but highly complex and we mess with nature at perils we often fail to see.

  279. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Hi Chris nearly forgot. I do use pub med and very good it is.

    But it is funnelled research and many journals do not get a mention there for obvious reasons.

    That reason is they give the other side of the picture.

    Occasionally when convoluted titles get through the screen they can always withdraw that article and blacken those involved.

    And of course nine out of ten papers are blackballed not because they are bad but contain bad messages.

    The usual thing here is to lambast the researchers, hound them out of work or come up with excuses.

    Fritz Lorscheider has filmed mercury destroying a growing brain cell at the concentration of one vaccine with mercury evenly diluted in a babies body. Lead a metal known to cause autism does not damage brain cells at this level. He has been targetted by other members of his campus but has sufficient credibility to maintain his position.

  280. Karen Ernst
    October 12, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    Shannon:
    Thank you for posting such an eloquent and thoughtful piece. While my children are not autistic, I am hopeful that more parents of autistic children will come forward in support of vaccine so that the money squandered chasing down the phantom vaccine culprit can be redirected toward educating these special children. Also, when brave parents like you stand up in support of vaccines, other parents feel confident in the benefits of vaccination, and ALL our children benefit from the reduced risk of contracting an infectious disease. THANK YOU!

  281. Karen Ernst
    October 12, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    I think Daisy May Fatty Pants is an awesome name.

  282. October 12, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    For readers unfamiliar with the jargon, “PubMed” is the nickname for the US’s National Institute of Health National Library of Science.

    PubMed comprises more than 20 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full-text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites.

    In other words, it is an online index of articles published in journals published both in the US and internationally. In order to be included in PubMed, the journals indexed have to meet certain quality criteria — how they evaluate the articles they publish and so on. It’s not the only index of scientific research but it is the one most pertinent to the life sciences.

    Now, on to John’s allegations. Essentially he is claiming that there is a vast, world-wide conspiracy to prevent ideas such as his from reaching the public eye.

  283. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    On the contrary, Rebecca stated “Most vacs are given 1 or 2 times, maybe 3 with a booster later, over a whole life time. Even once a year shots like flu for entire populations don’t bring in big bucks.”

    And that was a direct rebuttal. 21 billion isn’t pocket change. Apparently, you just feel like being snarky. And, who appointed you moderator anyway?

    Chris, vaccine mandates exist in every state. An exemption of any form is just that – an exemption from the mandate.

  284. Lea CD
    October 12, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    [ref: ]I am hopeful that more parents of autistic children will come forward in support of vaccine so that the money squandered chasing down the phantom vaccine culprit can be redirected toward educating these special children.

    [comment:]I am a mother of a child in the Autistic Spectrum and I support vaccines.

    Well done, Shannon!
    Can you imagine what would happen if all this energy was focused toward advocating to our legislatures to pass laws such as full funding of IDEA? Or pushing for opportunities for our kids to be included not only in schools but in the community? Or work toward creating training, jobs, so they can lead a productive and happy life.

    Unfortunately not all children recover, the very few who does, it is not completely clear how they do it. Most of the one who become asymptomatic, have received a lot of scientific-based intervention, such as ABA.

    Personally, I am more concerned about my son learning new skills and ways of coping with his sensory and social issues, than trying to talk to people who have no interest in listening, and are unwilling to take in consideration a large amount of un-bias data.

  285. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Where is the MMR given before a year? It is not on the schedule before one year in the UK, Canada, the USA or Japan.

    You make lots of claims but fail to back them up. Until you do, we will assume that you make everything up as you go along.

  286. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Hi Chris nearly forgot. I do use pub med and very good it is.

    Prove it.

  287. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Sara:

    Chris, vaccine mandates exist in every state.

    Prove it.

    Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.
    Omer SB, Enger KS, Moulton LH, Halsey NA, Stokley S, Salmon DA.
    Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15

  288. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 4:38 pm
  289. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    Hi Shannon

    oudated misinformation

    all of it

    so yes the fact that all mercury compounds take away our minds is in fact three thousand years old information

    it is out dated because 2010 research shows it as a brain improver and makes you less likely to have autism.

    But the thing is you cant change facts and mercury is chemically the worlds most toxic element and has no place in our vaccines.

    The misinformation is by reputable scientists selling themselves for money to prevent bankrupting USA by paying for the harm of mercury vaccines.

    My own money as said is zero and I wish people would have to give the amount they get paid to lie.

    If you think I lie I certainly am not paid one cent for it.

    Take the latest effort at proving mercury is harmless:

    first there is not one mercury measurment anywhere.

    second it shows for the pre-natal child an increased risk of autism from an averaged out 3microgram dose of thimerosal.

    so as the flu vaccine has nearly tentimes this amount and has been filmed destroying brain cells more than ten years ago at these levels.

    Then it is not just lying but protecting a lost cause.

    So why do they lie?

    For they condemn not just those injured historically but are condemning those yet to be born.

  290. Staci Lynn Kerr
    October 12, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    I have a hard time believing that some of these statements are sincere. I have many, many friends that have been damaged by VACCINES or their children have been SEVERLY damaged by VACCINES. If you are a parent and have an autistic child or a child that became ill after vaccination and still believe vaccines are safe, you have been seriously brain-washed or you have had too many shots of heavy metals, yourself. If you are one that has been fortunate enough to have not injured your childby shooting their body full of poison then I would suggest you start researching and doing some homework. Vaccines do not protect against diseases and often infect the vaccinated with the disease along with many other diseases and cause severe damage to all organs. If you are ignorant enough to believe that vaccines are safe inject yourself full of the toxins all you want. This is what the pharmaceutical companies and doctors want. Keep helping them fill their pockets. I feel for your children.

  291. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    One lady here recounts the death from whooping cough to an infant too young to be vaccinated.

    We cannot safely bring the vaccine earlier as this has already been shown to cause problems. That is if you accpet some role of early vaccines for the one in three USA children with neurological issues which in turn may have a role in delinquency at a later date.

    We can also argue that whooping cough increases with vaccines and although the vaccine uses dead fragments there is the possibility of jumping genes research known for some time and accounts for the rapidly changing nature of flu virus.

    Careful study of many vaccine campaigns does show increases in the very illness where the vaccine is being used.

    Vaccinology is definitely more an art than science.

    What we need is very careful and honest studies of vaccine regimes around the world and to look at vaccinated with non vaccinated.

    But yes the final debate needs to look at vaccines from the time of conception through to around three months. This is the time when infants are harmed most by vaccines as they are so tiny.

    And with exceptions shown here babies do have their mothers protection from harm which like vaccines is not 100 per cent.

    We do live in a world where deaths at this age have plummeted so we can look at the good side of modern hygiene and medical care but we can’t be complacent and the one in three mentioned above is catastrophic a

  292. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    To be honest if we only find the real cause for the high numbers of autism in the USA then there would be no need for this discussion.

    Several accepted causes only explain one in ten of the cases.

    I find it strange that lead is generally accpeted as causinf autism but a more toxic element like mercury is not accepted except by many who have autistic children.

    We are at an impasse.

    But deliberate addition is still going on and whether the cause or not matches well the number of cases.

    For the USA it is high, for Europe rates are lower. But sadly in 2010 France goes from a country where only two mercury vaccines have ever existed and given at reasonable ages to children to a nation now obsessed with giving mercury flu vaccines to the pre-natal child. We can only expect autism cases in Europe to climb to American levels.

  293. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    On the notion of money and big bucks.

    Vaccines when I had them were around ten cents and very safe. Mainly because you were five years to fifteen years and if they wern’t safe the vaccine companies would soon get to know.

    Today they are given to babies of one day with mercury and babies can cry till they have no energy to cry. For me this is torture.

    Last year the flu catastrophe cost the French government a thousand million euros at a thousand cents a shot and this was bargain basement prices.

    Aimed at adults and not one day babies the adults refused so only less than 5 per cent took the free shots (govt picked up the tabs) so the rest was too dangerous to do anything with except wait for some people to have it injected into them.

    Despite people claiming how dangerous flu is and how safe vaccines are it does show something.

  294. October 12, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Dear Staci Lynn,

    This discussion is all about the evidence.

    Vaccines do not protect against diseases

    Please provide evidence that (for example) the smallpox vaccine does not protect against smallpox, or that the Tdap does not protect against tetanus, diphtheria, or pertussis. Provide at least two examples and please share your citations.

    and often infect the vaccinated with the disease along with many other diseases

    Please provide published citations in which (for example) the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine causes the recipient to develop any or all of those diseases.

    and cause severe damage to all organs

    Please provide citations. Include which vaccines damage which organs.

    I will look forward to your reply.

  295. October 12, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Dear Staci Lynn,

    This discussion is all about the evidence.

    Vaccines do not protect against diseases

    Please provide evidence that (for example) the smallpox vaccine does not protect against smallpox, or that the Tdap does not protect against tetanus, diphtheria, or pertussis. Provide at least two examples and please share your citations.

    and often infect the vaccinated with the disease along with many other diseases

    Please provide published citations in which (for example) the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine causes the recipient to develop any or all of those diseases.

    and cause severe damage to all organs

    Please provide citations. Include which vaccines damage which organs.

    I will look forward to your reply.

  296. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Those are for schools and daycares. Plus there are processes to get exemptions. Proof has failed.

  297. John Fryer Chemist
    October 12, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Lea talks of chasing away from looking at a vaccine cause for autism. I agree if there are better options. Less than ten per cent of the money actually goes to this line of research and may be mush less than this. Why do we chase genetic reasons? It could be that GMO and genes are big money earners and agin this is cause for concern.

    There are few charities that subscribe to mercury or vaccine causes and for me these charities are just accepting money from governments to channel research into acceptable areas.

    If you look at the time to get lead metal accepted as harmful, you find it won the battle when it was possible to use lead free petrol without wrecking cars.

    The battle to recognise harm from tobacco has also been long and hard.

    With vaccines it is almost impossible with vaccines like smallpox et al saving lives with no risk.

    But today we have thousands getting drug resistant infections in hopsital, we have AIDS but where are the vaccines?

    Just to stop flu and with added brain destroying mercury.

    Time to shake things up and get priorities right.

    Vaccines for KILLER diseases not trivial for the most part.

    And get non toxic vaccines like the old days.

    Despite efforts to put mercury in vaccines back to the 1940′s the use of mercury in huge amounts probably began in the late 60′s at the time many countries REJECTED the idea. Eg Russia for example;

  298. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Please list all the pediatric vaccines that still contain thimerosal. Provide proof. Make sure to take into account all vaccines, like the thimerosal free influenza vaccines.

    Provide proof, as in real documentation. Failure to do that will show you are making it all up.

  299. October 12, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Staci,

    My essay is about risk, not about 100% safety. Risks from vaccines are real but low. The public health risks of not vaccinating those children who can be vaccinated are high.

    I recommend this short (1.30 minute) stark demonstration by Penn & Teller, with visuals as to why vaccinating our children is both a necessity and a luxury many of us taken for granted — whether you believe in the debunked idea of autism/vaccine causation or not [some profanity, so NSFW if your speaker is on]:

    Many who think they or their children have vaccine injuries are actually victims of coincidence, due to the parallel paths of vaccine schedules and developmental milestones. See the original essay for how to methodically investigate timeline concerns.

  300. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    And get non toxic vaccines like the old days.

    Which ones were those? Provide actual documentation. Failure to provide a reference will be evidence that you are making it all up.

  301. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    Babies only carry their mother’s protection as long as they are breast fed, many, including the poor who often choose not to breast feed. This causes the baby to lose the immunity. Breast fed infants are also found to have a better immunity response to vaccines. See the following articles:

    The antibody levels of immunized infants were significantly higher in the breastfed than the formula-fed group. These findings are strong evidence that breastfeeding enhances the active humoral immune response in the first year of life.
    Source: Papst, H.F. , Spady, D.W. “Effect of Breast Feeding on Antibody Response to Conjugate Vaccine”. Lancet, 1990.

    The breastfed group had significantly higher antibody levels than two formula-fed groups together. Breastfed infants thus showed better serum and secretory responses to perioral and parenteral vaccines than the formula-fed, whether with a conventional or low-protein content.
    Source: Van-Coric, M. “Antibody Responses to Parental & Oral Vaccines Where Impaired by Conventional and Low-Protein Formulas as Compared to Breast Feeding”. Acta Paediatr Scand 1990; 79: 1137-42.

    Human milk can transfer specific or nonspecific immunities to the external mucosal surface of the intestine and possibly to the respiratory tract of the newborn. The acquisition of such passive immunity is particularly important in the early neonatal period when the immune system is immature.
    Source: Chang, S.J. “Antimicrobial Proteins of Maternal and Cord Sera and Human Milk in Relation to Maternal Nutritional Status”. A. M. J. CLIN NUTR, 1990.

  302. October 12, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Lea, so true.

  303. October 12, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Again: John Fryer is spreading outdated misinformation and conspiracy theories that he cannot be bothered to substantiate.

    I refer readers, again, to the links in the original essay.

  304. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    Pertussis has proven impossible to eradicate. Infections are showing up in previously infected and previously vaccinated individuals. Both natural and artificial immunity is short-lived. Booster campaigns will still not provide lifelong immunity. Also, the current vaccine does not protect against the parapertussis infection, which is often mistaken for pertussis.

  305. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Okay, if you are still discussing the flu vaccine, “babies of one day” do not get it, it is only authorized for children six months and up. AND then, we have preservative free vaccine (hence, no mercury) for both the 6 to 36 month age group AND the pregnant female.

    If you are discussing the routine Hep B vaccine given at birth, also single dose vial, AND preservative free.

    SO…I really don’t understand your argument.

    Also, bringing up the general French population’s belief that the flu shot is dangerous does not add to your argument. As I said in previous post, after seeing how sick my patients were last year, I fear the virus much more than the vaccine!!

  306. Kelly
    October 12, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    No, No no Netty. Autism can also kill. The diseases we vaccinate for all have Cures including whooping cough. 70% of the Whooping cough cases in California have come from people that are vaccinated. the vaccines contain Live viruses so they are giving you whooping cough so your body can become immune. Please people dont just repeat what you have always been told. This schedule is dangerous and it is only a matter of time before it is all out in the open.

  307. October 12, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Pertussis vaccines are not as effective as some other vaccines, and immunity does wane more quickly. All the more reason to keep up to date with boosters, because adults can be unwitting carriers, and infect completely unprotected infants, who are then much more likely to suffer severely or die from the diesase.

  308. October 12, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    “Autism can kill”? No.

    Everything else: Also untrue.

  309. October 12, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Sara, what is your point here?

    We can’t eliminate tetanus, either, as Clostridium tetani spores are endemic in the soil. Since the vaccine uses an inactivated toxoid, not a live vaccine, a person’s immunity tends to decline with time, which is why booster doses are recommended.

    So should we stop vaccinating against tetanus, just because immunity wanes over time?

  310. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    They are currently studying vaccines for both staph and HIV, it will take years to complete the studies for efficacy and safety. See the following sites for more information:

    Nontoxigenic protein A vaccine for methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus infections in mice

    http://jem.rupress.org/content/207/9/1863.abstract

    NIAID HIV Vaccine Research: A Year in Review, Looking Ahead

    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Research/vaccines/Pages/vacResearchYearInReview.aspx

    The HIV vaccine is in stage 3 clinical trials in Thailand (where HIV is rampant). the staph vaccine clinical trials have also started, but I am not sure what phase they are in.

  311. October 12, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Kelly, you are incorrect

    The diseases we vaccinate for all have Cures including whooping cough

    Tell that to Danielle Romaguera’s face

    http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/#comment-877

    and the parents of the nine infants who have died in California in the current outbreak.

    Also incorrect, if not mendacious.

    the vaccines contain Live viruses so they are giving you whooping cough so your body can become immune.

    The vaccines given are Tdap.

    The tetanus vaccine is against a bacterium Clostridium tetani. Also, the vaccine contains a toxoid, a fragment.

    Diphtheria is also caused by a bacterium, Corynebacterium diphtheriae. The actual disease is caused when the bacteria release a toxin into the infected person’s body. The vaccine contains a toxoid, a fragment of the toxin.
    Pertussis is also caused by a bacterium, Bordetella pertussis. Up until 1991, the vaccine was made with whole-cell preparations. The formulations that have been in use for the last 19 years use an acellular preparation.

    DTaP and Tdap vaccines are made with acellular preparations, so the disease-causing bacteria are not in the vaccines and cannot reproduce.

    The acellular formulations do not produce as strong an immune response as cellular formulations, which is why multiple doses of the vaccines are needed.

  312. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    Where is your source for the statement that 70% of the whooping cough cases in California have come from people that are vaccinated?

    According to the latest report from the California Dept of Health, there have been 9 babies that have died from pertussis, 8 of which were too young to be vaccinated (according to the current cdc and acip guidelines of 2 months), the ninth was a 28 week preemie that had only received the first vaccine 15 days prior to onset of illness.
    Also, NOWHERE in that report does it discuss the vaccine status of the other 5272 cases of pertussis in California. As the highest segment of the cases were among babies under 6 months, it is fair to say, that they had incomplete vaccinations to pertussis. Your statement is seriously misleading.

    I got my facts directly from the CDPH website, not second or third hand, check it out for yourself. Do not let the DTAP arrows in the graph fool you, they represent the current CDPH recommendations, not actual vaccine status.

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport10-6-2010.pdf

    Also, check out the following link (be sure to check out the video), I would not wish that on any baby or parent forced to watch!!

    http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978522097

  313. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    When they are talking about the vaccine market, the R&D and money is in stuff like cancer vaccines, NOT childhood vaccines. only 2% of all pharmaceutical sales is in routine immunizations.

  314. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your story.

  315. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    In what country are you suggesting that the MMR is given before 1 year of age? In the US, where I practice, it is only given “on or after the first birthday”, Varicella is only given “on or after the first birthday” and Hep a is only given “on or after the first birthday”. Before you make these assertions, you should check out the current ACIP schedule. I don’t care if I have a child in my clinic whose first birthday is the very next day, I will have the parents bring the child back following their birthday. If there are providers giving the MMR before age 12 months, they are not following any published recommendations.

  316. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Preservative free flu vaccine is what the ACIP recommends for pregnant women.

    Also, as repeated AGAIN and AGAIN, please CITE YOUR SOURCES!!!

  317. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Yes, but it wanes at different times in different people. There will always be carriers among us. No matter how robust the booster campaign may be. Also, compliance among adults has always proven to be extremely poor.

    Liz, my point is that holding unvaccinated children accountable for infecting unprotected infants is erroneous.

    Why are you asking me if “we” should stop vaccinating against tetanus? That would be your choice to make. Our family certainly doesn’t. And, we’ve been able to treat it very effectively when it arose.

  318. Steve Michaels
    October 12, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    Firstly Michelle, what does it matter if vaccines are not ‘authorized’ from day one? The blood-brain barrier is not complete until 24+ months so all of the formaldahyde, aluminium and mercury go directly into the brain. You seem rather certain that the powers that be that ‘authorize’ the use of vaccines at any age are somehow bestowed with god-like knowledge. You speak of safety and efficacy testing…. name one, just one, double-blind placebo study conducted independently to confirm either safety or efficacy. One does not exist. I have researched and study the work of many others who have searched from inside and outside the medical/pharmacuetical industy. As far as the ‘safe’ alternatives, particularly for pregnant women, I suggest you look at the National Institute of Health ‘safety testing’ criteria for pregnant women. Firstly, first trimster pregnancy was completely excluded, and secondly the vaccine tested contained no mercury or any adjuvant, but the vaccines offered to the public contained both, pregnant or not. This is the type of research your god-like ‘authorities’ are using to tell you how safe this stuff is. Here’s the link: http://www.niaid.nih.gov/news/qa/pages/h1n1pregnanttrials.aspx. I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee, because you are relying on the ‘research’ of the industry itself to tell you how safe their products are. The NIH, the FDA and the CDC are all already controlled by the very companies they are supposed to be regulating. If you question that, than ask yourself why the head of the CDC is NOW the head of international marketing for vaccines for Merck. It certainly isn’t because she gave vaccines a good and thorough going over, more that she supported biased research methods done by the very companies she was supposed to be regulating and has now been rewarded for her ‘efforts’. It’s called the ‘revolving door’ of regulators and the regulated.

  319. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Chris, mandates for schools and daycares qualify as… drum roll… mandates. Again, exemptions are for release from the mandate. This is getting to be ridiculous.

    Michelle, wrong. The pediatric segment is currently the biggest segment of the vaccine market. The vaccine for cervical cancer is projected to dominate in the years to come. But they’ve been having some hiccups with that one.

  320. October 12, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Sara,

    Liz, my point is that holding unvaccinated children accountable for infecting unprotected infants is erroneous.

    In the case of pertussis, you are largely correct, since no-longer-immune adults are also sources of infections. However, if we were discussing measles or mumps I would disagree with you. Just look at the San Diego measles outbreak of 2009 for evidence.

    http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/PreventiveCare/19138

    And, we’ve been able to treat it very effectively when it arose.

    Are you saying that your family treated tetanus in a child? Or some other vaccine-preventable disease?

    In any case, I am happy for your family that your children were ill and recovered without serious side effects. But that’s luck. I hope your luck holds against any future infections.

  321. MC
    October 12, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    John Fryer appears to want to take over this conversation. He’s “made” his point a number of times. I put “made” in quotes because he fails to actually support his statements even though he is repeatedly asked to do so.

    He wants to go back to “the old days”. When exactly that is, I can’t say. Many groups seem to think that if we go back to the vaccine schedule of the early 1980s we will magically solve all or most of our problems.

    The schedule of the early 1980s included *more* mercury than the current schedule. Lots more. Factors of 10 more. It included the DPT shots which caused a lot more fevers. It didn’t protect against HiB or other diseases which can kill or maim.

    It is an amazingly bad idea.

    To what end? The thimerosal idea (that mercury caused an epidemic) failed. Completely failed. Why go back to an older schedule for no reason?

  322. Karen Ernst
    October 12, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Beautifully stated, Lea.

  323. October 12, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    Lea, thank you for this dose of intelligent positivity.

  324. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Bravo, Steve Michaels.

  325. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    Okay, I have read every post on this site, and I feel as if we have really “beaten a dead horse”. The money to be made off of desperate parents seeking answers is astounding. Most private practice doctors lose money storing and administering vaccines. Insurance does not reimburse well for vaccine administration. Grieving parents stuck in the first stage of grief will not listen to any reasonable argument given to them (first stage, acording to Kubler-Ross is anger).

    I choose to vaccinate my children (now 17 and 15, both honors students in high school). I choose to be an advocate for vaccination. I have extensively read both sides of the vaccine arguments, and have also taken classes in microbiology and pathophysiology. I have worked in ER, ICU, and family practice/peds.

    Yes, 1 in 110 children in this country have been diagnosed with ASD since the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual listed austism (in 1980). However, there have been MANY peer reviewed scientific articles that show that MMR and thimerosol does not cause autism.

    As I read and ponder this blog, I think of the difference between causation, correlation and coincidence. If you watched a TV program, then died that night, is it a fair assumption that the TV program killed you? Okay, Mcdonald’s introduced the chicken mcnugget in June of 1980, oh my, maybe eating mcnuggets in pregnancy and early childhood causes autism (by the way, the DSM III first described Infantile autism in 1980). Correlation? Coincidence? See where I am going with this?

  326. Michelle
    October 12, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    If vaccines cause autism, think about this:

    One more point I forgot to mention, 1 in 110 children are diagnosed with ASD, that is 0.9% of children in this country.

    Compare that to the number of children with complete immunization schedules at 62.8% (http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/demographics-unvaccinated-children)

    why isn’t the incidence of autism even higher than it is? 0.9% vs 62.8% Causation will be more arguable if the percentage of children with autism spectrum disorder comes closer to the percentage of vaccinated children.

  327. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    Yes, I was referring to tetanus in an adult. My children have also survived “vaccine-preventable” diseases including varicella and influenza. Neither compared to the severity of HSV1/Gingivostomatitis which every one of my children contracted. They sail through everything. It is good exercise for their immune systems and the holistic approach we take to health eases their discomfort.

    I don’t believe in luck or chance. Good fortune, perhaps. Family genetics plus environment equal either a strong immune system or a weak one. Such is life.

  328. October 12, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    @ Steve
    The flu shot contains thimerosal in the multidose vials. You can request a single-dose vial shot.

    Can you provide a reference for your assertion about the blood-brain barrier, as research indicates far less certainty than you impart here? Also, can you provide references for your assertion that mercury, aluminum, and formaldehyde go “directly to the brain”?

    The body makes formaldehyde, so its relevance here is unclear: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

    Regarding aluminum, the FDA notes “Aluminum adjuvant containing vaccines have a demonstrated safety profile of over six decades of use and have only uncommonly been associated with severe local reactions.”

    Double-blind vaccine studies–vaccines undergo a tiered clinical trial process just as other interventions must. At any rate, there are many, many double-blind, placebo-controlled vaccine studies, so I don’t know why you’d have trouble finding them.

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(84)92388-2/abstract

    http://faculty.tamu-commerce.edu/fmiskevich/bsc-597mamb/cancer/villa-%20anti-hpv%20therapy.pdf

    http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/169/4/488

    From the CDC for flu: “A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial among 1,602 healthy children initially aged 15–71 months assessed the efficacy of trivalent LAIV against culture-confirmed influenza during two seasons (Belshe et al., N Engl J Med 1998;338:1405—12. Belshe et al, J Pediatr 2000;136:168–75). In season one, when vaccine and circulating virus strains were well-matched, efficacy in preventing confirmed illness from influenza was 93% for participants who received 2 doses of LAIV. In season two, when the A (H3N2) component was not well-matched between vaccine and circulating virus strains, efficacy was 86% overall.”

    Lewis K, Cherry JD, Holroyd HJ, et al. A double-blind study comparing an acellular pertussis-component DTP vaccine with a whole-cell pertussis-component DTP vaccine in 18-month-old children. Am J Dis Child 1986;140:872-6

    Blennow M, Granstrom M, Jaatmaa E, et al. Primary immunization of infants with an acellular pertussis vaccine in a double-blind randomized clinical trial. Pediatrics 1988;82:293-9.

    Peltola H, Heinonen OP. Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins. Lancet 1986;1:939-42.

    Tingle AJ, Mitchell LA, Grace M, et al. Randomised double-blind placebo-controlled study on adverse effects of rubella immunisation in seronegative women. Lancet 1997;349:1277-81.

    Hoberman A, Greenberg DP, Paradise JL, et al. Effectiveness of inactivated influenza vaccine in preventing acute otitis media in young children: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA 2003;290:1608–16.

    Falsey AR, Treanor JJ, Tornieporth N, et al. Randomized, double-blind controlled phase 3 trial comparing the immunogenicity of high-dose and standard-dose influenza vaccine in adults 65 years of age and older. J Infect Dis 2009;200:172–80.

    Govaert TM, Thijs CT, Masurel N, et al. The efficacy of influenza vaccination in elderly individuals. A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. JAMA 1994;272:1661–5.

    Glesby MJ, Hoover DR, Farzadegan H, et al. The effect of influenza
    vaccination on human immunodeficiency virus type 1 load: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. J Infect Dis 1996;174:1332–6.

    Vesikari T, Karvonen A, Korhonen T, et al. A randomized, double-blind study of the safety, transmissibility and phenotypic and genotypic stability of cold-adapted influenza virus vaccine. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2006;25:590–5.

    Peltola H, Kayhty H, Sivonen A, et al. Haemophilus influenzae type b capsular polysaccharide vaccine in children: a double-blind field study of 100,000 vaccinees 3 months to 5 years of age in Finland. Pediatrics 1977;60:730-7.

    From the 1st Salk polio work: “The year 1952 was the worst polio year on record, with more than 57,000 cases nationwide. The public was in a panic and was clamoring for a vaccine. A year later, Salk announced the development of a trial vaccine for polio. The National Foundation, encouraged by Salk’s preliminary results and feeling pressure from the nation’s parents, accelerated plans for what would be the largest controlled trial in the history of medicine. The Foundation’s Vaccine Advisory Committee and the National Institutes of Health recommended that the field trial be carried out, and the U.S. Public Health Service gave its official approval. Over one million children were vaccinated in national field trials in 1954. They were known as the “Polio Pioneers.” This was one of the first large double-blind, placebo-controlled tests that have since become the standard: half of those inoculated received the vaccine, and half received a placebo. Neither the recipient of the shot nor the researchers knew which one they got until the clinical trial was over. In 1955 the vaccine was determined to be safe for the population at large.”

    I looked at the Website you suggested regarding the exclusion of pregnant women in the 1st trimester from the H1N1 trials, and read their rationale for the exclusion, which was to avoid confounders: ”
    Miscarriage (loss of pregnancy) occurs more frequently during the first trimester than during later trimesters. Vaccination against seasonal influenza is not associated with miscarriage but the expected higher rate of miscarriage in the first trimester—from causes unrelated to vaccine or any other intervention—could make interpreting results of the trial more difficult, and so women in their first trimester of pregnancy were not included in this trial.”

    I also went to the paper they linked and found this: ” Inactivated influenza vaccine can be safely and effectively administered during any trimester of pregnancy. No study to date has demonstrated an increased risk of either maternal complications or adverse fetal outcomes associated with inactivated influenza vaccination. “

  329. October 12, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    ” Family genetics plus environment equal either a strong immune system or a weak one. Such is life.”

    Just thought that was worth repeating. It’s an excellent argument for vaccination.

  330. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    To be honest if we only find the real cause for the high numbers of autism in the USA then there would be no need for this discussion.

    The autism rates in the USA are pretty much the same as every other industrialized country using the same diagnostic criteria. The large numbers is because the USA is the third largest country in population. I believe that has been mentioned to you before.

    When India gets around to having an education system that can make 99% of its population literate versus its present 61%, then you will see it will have the largest population of autistic children.

    For the USA it is high, for Europe rates are lower.

    Show evidence, especially since the UK has similar rates to the USA.

    Failure to provide proper evidence will show that you are just making it all up.

  331. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    Did you miss the part on that page which specifically told which states have exemptions? Here it is:

    http://www.immunize.org/laws/#exempt

    Where is the mandate that you must put your child into daycare? Or go to public school? (actually that happened in Oregon in the early twentieth century, with the push from the KKK all of the non-public schools were outlawed… the KKK did not like the idea of Catholic parochial schools)

    Oh, and there are plenty of private schools in the USA that do not care about vaccines. They are easy to find, just check the CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) for disease outbreaks. They often happen in the private schools with lax vaccine requirement.

    I admit to having a different definition of “mandates” than most. I lived in the Panama Canal Zone when I was in high school. There was a report of yellow fever in the interior of the Republic of Panama, and if you went there you needed to provide documentation of having had the yellow fever vaccine. If you did not provide the evidence, then the nice Guardia Nacional guy with the gun would escort you to a clinic where you would get the vaccine. Whether you wanted to, or not.

    Having experienced what it is like to live in a dictatorship (Omar Torrijos time), I am amused by many clueless discussions on “rights” and “mandates.”

  332. Sara
    October 12, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    I suppose it would. If you believe that vaccination equates to health, that is.

  333. Chris
    October 12, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    Vaccination does not equate to health. You are thinking in black and white, not in the murky gray that constitutes reality.

    Vaccines can educate your immune system. They are not the ultimate source of health. For that you need many other things like:
    clean water
    a balanced diet
    regular exercise
    lack of certain genetics (like my son’s genetic heart condition)
    a decent immune system, which you can educate
    plus a few other things (I would include good mental health practices as a relative of a recent suicide)

    The last one is important… my sister is alive today because she had a robust immune system at birth. She was born two months premature in an era (early 1960s) where her very survival without going blind made her an outlier. She is quite alive, and mostly healthy except she has Raynaud’s, which is an autoimmune disorder. Minor, yes… but still an illustration that the human immune system is very complicated.

  334. October 12, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    Sara,

    I wrote “luck” and you wrote “good fortune or chance”. You were more accurate. I was using “luck” in the colloquial sense, of “lucky” — “it just happened”.

    I reject the notion of “luck” that there is an imperceptible force that brings good fortune or adversity, that can be affected by one’s actions or inactions.

  335. October 13, 2010 at 12:29 am

    Sara wrote:

    If you believe that vaccination equates to health, that is.

    First, the “belief” issue.

    I don’t believe much. I’m not from Missouri, but “show me” is still a motto I live by. I evaluate the evidence and make a rational decision based on the weight of the evidence.

    Second, the “vaccination equates to health”.

    No again. Vaccination doesn’t equate to health at all…in the absence of vaccine-preventable infectious disease.

    Person without antibodies to rubeola (measles) + exposure to rubeola = high chance of ill health, including significant morbidity & mortality

    Person with antibodies to rubeola (measles) conferred by vaccination or conferred by previous infection + exposure to rubeola = very small chance of ill health, including morbidity & mortality.

    Here’s the other part of the deal: I accept that I live in a society. Just in the course of living my life, going to the store, going to the library, I am exposed to other people’s germs as they are to mine. As a responsible member of a civil society, I do what I can to to minimize not only the risk of illness to myself, but to others. On a very ordinary and every day level, that means restricting my activities if I am ill. On a more robust level, it means that I have an obligation to reduce the chance that I will expose others to illness.

    And that’s why I am, as an adult, immunized against pertussis, and seasonal flu.

  336. October 13, 2010 at 12:31 am

    sigh. I always wince when people state the 1 in 110 rate, and then add on “children”. Because it’s not just children. There are teens and adults on the autism spectrum too, and that rate includes them as well. So it’s 1 in 110 people/Americans/Canadians/etc.

    And I’m one of them.

    I’m also curious about the arguments that vaccines cause autism, since I’ve yet to document a single instant of regression following a vaccine.
    Given that I am autistic, and therefore can be considered “vaccine-damaged”, as well as at risk to suffer more damage with every vaccine I receive. It stands to reason, doesn’t it, that if the vaccines did cause my autism when I was a child, that future vaccines would make it worse, right?
    I mean, that’s why a lot of parents, upon a child displaying autistic traits, stop vaccinating the kid, to keep the child from becoming “more autistic”, right?
    And since I’ve never been “treated” for vaccine/mercury damage, each new vaccination would worsen my condition.

    And in the past year, I’ve had a Tetanus shot, the H1N1 vaccine, and the seasonal flu vaccine. Which, being that I’m in Canada, means that the flu shots contain thimersol.
    Which means that according to the vaccines=autism theory, I should have regressed. I should have lost skills, stopped speaking, increased autistic behaviours, etc.

    and um, guess what? No.
    Didn’t happen.

    Got a sore arm, a touch of flu-like symptoms in the first day. After that, was fine. Still just as autistic as before. Even made a T-shirt.

    Yeah, my account is one account, and it’s certainly not data, but it rather supports the science. You know, science, the study of how things work, aka how mother nature works?
    yeah, that.

    Great article Shannon, and great job keeping your cool with these people.

  337. October 13, 2010 at 12:45 am

    I’m still waiting for Kelly to respond to my questions.

    http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/#comment-927

    Tick tock tick tock

  338. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 4:25 am

    Opinions and Facts

    A lot of opinion and a lot of facts in the messages along with rudeness, derision and other things which only hinder proper discussions and show at best passion and at worst malice in the writer.

    Yes, people are prone to get facts wrong or distorted but in the long run these can be corrected. We are not in a court of law where a wrong fact can damn an innocent as happened to Sally Clark when experts in vaccines actually said more than ten years ago that a vaccine 6 hours before the death to a baby effectively 3 weeks old allowing for prematurity meant he was less likely to die than if he had not been given the vaccine. Professor Sir S Roy Meadow being the vaccine and child expert in question. Actually proven right (Roy Meadow) in a legal battle on this issue by two High Court judges out of three who decided the issue finally in his favour.

    My opinion here is that even when doubt occurs, the vaccines get that benefit. The vaccines given contained mercury and the particular batch has been accused of causing more than this one death to 8 week Harry Clark vaccinated in a way that 20 years earlier would have been illegal as it was too soon. Today in UK most SIDS occur at two months matching the first round of vaccinations. It was three months before matching the then first date for mercury vaccines. A fact never answered satisfactorily by a society insistent on early vaccines at any cost.

    With more than a million unexplained SIDS this seems almost perjury, perversity and punishing the innocent to me.

    Experts are allowed in court to give opinion but we have seen how dangerous this can be. Again Sir Roy counts dozens of scalps of mothers from his expertise.

    In this discussion group we have people who would not be allowed to give opinions on any matter and this must include me.

    But we do have facts as well as opinions to talk of.

    The death mentioned here to someone too young to have a vaccine that might have saved them is poignant, but as we see there are tales on both sides. One person dies from whooping cough and this is a tragedy but what of the thousands every year that die suddenly and have had all there vaccines. Here the death is sudden without the drama of intensive care failing to save a life after weeks of struggle. Harry 6 hours after his mercury vaccine died in less than the time it takes to brew a cup of coffee. His story is written in a book called STOLEN INNOCENCE and in it you see that no one blames or ever did blame the vaccine. Even in 1997 it seems vaccines were looked at scantily as the culprit. The testimony in a long trial amounted to just a couple of sentences on how vaccines SAVE life and do NOT take life.

    My own experience is that I have known a few people with whooping cough but luckily have never contracted it. Harry had the pertussis vaccine before his sudden and unexpected demise.

    But they tell me the illness is debilitating but more that they get it regularly like the flu or a cold.

    Are we using the right models and the right methods with vaccines?

    If an illness is not protected against then the idea of vaccines seems broken.

    It seems the pertussis vaccine is not 100 per cent effective both in the short or long term.

    Percentage wise even in a perfectly vaccinated society would pertussis be extinct?

    Smallpox is a vaccine policy that was spectacularly succesful with total elimination. A remarkable and fantastic triumph for everyone involved back in the 1970′s when vaccines were almost universally accepted as good. I know of no other such case.

    But even here there are things to be aware of. First in the USA and many countries, vaccines were stopped even when millions around the world died from the illness every year.

    This would mean that vaccines are not the only way to contain illness. We have millions dying in the 1960′s but illness in most countries close to if not zero.

    A system that went hand in hand was that of surveillance and isolation. Today I feel we rely too much on vaccines, accept them as safe as they undoubtably were and even when caught out on vaccine safety such as the deliberate addition of mercury a known toxin and poison we (the vaccine community) seek proof that it is not really toxic.

    This policy of surveillance, tracking and notification is as powerful as vaccines and carries no risks for the healthy person from an injection of various materials. Scarlet Fever is not the scourge it was. Other illnesses too which troubled society in olden times have been all but wiped out.

    TB vaccines are a case where they do not seem to work and countries have abandoned their use at least in the short term. Here again many of my vaccinated friends have contracted this illness and worse for whatever reason one person vaccinated died withing a year at the age of 14 from cancer to the brain. A person I knew as 100 per cent healthy for the five years I knew him. His death took less than a fortnight.

    The arrogance of today is where discussion on vaccine issues is stifled and dissent meets with ridicule and dismissal from work.

    Dr Andrew Wakefield may or may not have produced a good piece of research but has been hounded out of his country, his work and lost his doctorship. He was in fa ct one of a dozen who did the work on bowel problems and autism and is a great loss to UK autism research.

    Vaccine companies for their part have been caught with a policy to destroy dissenters like him.

    He was following in the foosteps of others who have long noted, constipation, hand flapping, and bowel disorders are so common in autism that without these problems the diagnosis is different. While earlier work predates the measles vaccine it doesn’t predate measles or other vaccines such as the pertussis vaccine with mercury added.

    The debate will be over when we know why a million people in many countries now can’t exist or live independent lives while decades before we had autism savants who were world famous and could exist on their own.

    One in three with neurological problems long term demands answers and vaccine and mercury deliberately added are factors that can only ever be eliminated when we find the true answer.

    In the mean time a brain destroying chemical and a problem of possible brains damaged is too close for comfort for me.

    We need to get mercury out of vaccines and that can’t be done by propganda where most people thought for 5 years it was out.

    Today mercury is back into babies vaccines with a VENGEANCE.

    That is not opinion.

    That is FACT.

  339. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 5:08 am

    Numbers with autism

    Chris I believe you are claiming the autism figures around the world are flat and unchanging?

    In fact I said there are huge descepencies.

    Most countries have more than ten years or twenty years ago and go back 70 years and autism was a very minor illness.

    Denmark has the best health monitoring system in the world and autism there is at a rate ten times LESS than USA.

    The USA has more than one child in 200 with autism but the curious and so far unexplainable point is that there are more boys than girls and no genetic explanation is known by me to account for this.

    A chemical cause can explain perfectly this difference.

    Yes, UK is a bad example but has the same mad cap vaccinate ASAP as in the USA. I would expect the UK example to be the worst in Europe for autism.

    We do need vaccines but we don’t need a one size fits all policy. And we don’t need fallout with illness that supasses illness we protect against.

    My own daughter vaccinated FIRST at six months got her only serious illness within three weeks.

    And vaccinated even in those days three months after the then recommended schedule.

    In 1971 NO ONE was aware of SUDDEN DEATH to HEALTHY BABIES. It was in its infancy and rising rapidly rather like autism today.

    Long enough in those days not even to raise a glimmer of suspicion for me.

    Today it rings huge alarm bells.

    Why ill 21 days after a vaccine to prevent illness?

    Why was Harry Clark dead 6 hours after a vaccine to save life?

    The smallpox injection abandoned in the UK years before it was extinct was actually eliminated by RING vaccination, isolation and surveillance. People travelling around the globe got vaccines well in advance of their travel. This had many advantages as it protected people in both the country visited and that of the home country, plus it meant if there was adverse events from the vaccine they were kept to an absolute minimum.

    Today we sacrifice our new born as if they are EXPENDABLE. One million SIDS with no doctor or government EXPLAINING deaths to healthy and vaccinated infants.

    Massive vaccinations to everyone even when the risk is truly one adverse event per 100 000 means nearly everyone is safe and protected but it does mean thousands die or get harmed. Over years this becomes millions of casualities.

    Which is the best system?

    I mean repeat vaccines as people here claim loyally they get their flu shots EVERY year should do well to study the work of Professor Charles Richet Nobel winner and discoverer of anaphylaxis from repeat same vaccines.

    There is virually little defence to anaphylactic shock except to avoid multiple repeat same vaccines.

  340. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 6:12 am

    Hi Corina

    Sorry you are autistic but obviously well enough to write coherently and sensibly here.

    First, not every case ot autism is vaccine caused.

    Second for the record no one accepts vaccine cause anyway.

    Third there are therefore 90 per cent of autism cases with no reasonable reason for being autistic.

    If you accept toxic amounts of mercury are responsible as I believe honestly then if your vaccines are mercury free and truly zero mercury there is no problem.

    Go back to the root cause and time at infancy or before. Many people get injections at birth or the mother while pregnant.

    Also evidence sparse or voluminous puts the high risk time during pregnancy up to around three months with a drop out of harm around six months.

    Obviously this is very rough with claims of harm after one year measles shots.

    But by the time a person is of good age then harm from vaccines is not possible to the same extent.

    If somehow we could delay any injections to the pregnant mother or the young baby then we would be returning to situations in force when my child was born in 1971 when there was no real risk of any illness to the child in the UK.

    AIDS was unknown, old illnesses like scarlet fever were almost non existent, smallpox, diphtheria, tetanus were almost zero thanks to safe vaccines.

    Three months was the earliest at which people got vaccines of any sort.

    And of course autism for people like me was as unknown as Alzheimers and CJD.

    How times have changed and for someone like me a chemist who was made aware of mercury only 14 or so years ago in vaccines it came as a shock as I was for ten years chasing down another brain destroyer that of the organophosphates which can be linked to schizophrenia conditions if you believe most lancet articles such as the 1961 diazinon study for greenhouse workers was accurate.

    So for you at whatever age now, the vaccines will not normally affect you in anyway.

    This does not excuse vaccine harm for the year up to three months of age for baby and pre-natal child exposed to perhaps three or more mercury vaccines.

    And look at HPV vaccines and clearly there is little sign of harm from the first two but many complaints of serious harm from the third repeat vaccine as predicted a hundred years ago by Richet.

  341. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 7:32 am

    A couple of people bring up points such as autism doesnt kill and if 60 plus per cent dont get full vaccines then why isnt autism 60 per cent too.

    First toxicology is a science and for a poison that kills there is a level at which it kills everyone. This would equate to 60 per cent vaccines and death.

    Clearly this is not what happens.

    If you reduce the poison the death rate drops from 100 per cent to 50 per cent and then 1 per cent.

    LD50 and LD1 are recognised and known levels for each poison.

    When you get to low levels then there are no parmaeters to guide us.

    0.01 per cent thimerosal is very small and kills very small numbers only. further those not killed may be harmed or most will escape harm.

    This is the world we look at.

    Levels 1 in 500 to 1 in 2 000 SIDS; 1in 110 or 1 in 10 000 or whatever autism. further if it is a toxin you would expect some serious cases near death and others who have almost escaped and virtually normal.

    This is EXACTLY the pattern of harm we see with SIDS, autism, aspergers et al.

    All extremely worrying.

    And normally most countries exceed easily the 80 per cent rate at which vaccine scientists know the herd effect is fully working.

    And as people keep saying each vaccine is a dead or live source of a pathogen which can on its own or with gene jumping cause illness in its own right.

  342. Sara
    October 13, 2010 at 7:34 am

    Why the sigh? 1 in 110 is indeed a count of children, born in 1998.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/features/counting-autism.html

    I am also an adult with autism. But, that doesn’t make qualify me to conclude what does or doesn’t cause it.

  343. Michelle
    October 13, 2010 at 7:37 am

    Thank you for pointing out my misinformation, I mistakenly said children, not adults and children in my 1 in 110.

    And thank you for sharing your experiences.

  344. October 13, 2010 at 7:44 am

    John,

    Dr Andrew Wakefield may or may not have produced a good piece of research but has been hounded out of his country, his work and lost his doctorship.

    That statement is incorrect. Wakefield’s motivation was entirely monetary as has been shown again and again.

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/10/andrew-wakefields-vaccine-patent/

    He wasn’t “hounded”; the UK General Medical Council did what it was supposed to do and protected patients against a doctor who put personal gain ahead of his patients’ best interests.

  345. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 7:45 am

    DTaP does use killed material so theoretically it is safe but we take no account of gene jumping and outbreaks of pertussis after pertussis vaccines need explanation which like autism is not forthcoming.

    My pertussis was just the one off and at an age of many years.

    Today with vaccines given at ever earlier ages and with reduced efficacity then repeat vaccines brings up the spectre of anaphylaxis not previously met with a once only for life vaccine.

    As we make vaccines safe and less effective we knowingly introduce to babies new risks known for generations.

    As a chemist and now an amateur student of vaccines for more than a decade I accept the science and expertise is huge but also the ability to get lost in the detail and forget or ignore simple facts not ever challenged.

    The current method of treating suspected anaphylaxis with a dose of some medicine may not be sufficient to do anything but delay anaphylaxis so government law tells us that anaphylaxis is not the problem.

    Many talk of conspiracy. For me it is just plain arrogance, ignorance and the normal actiopn of committee that can review mountains of harm and still say everything is under control.

    Is one child in three with neurological problems.

    One boy in 56 with autism

    and more than a million dead SIDS

    Under control?

    For me arrogance, ignorance and lack of individual responsibility for harm done says it all.

  346. Michelle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:10 am

    You know, back in 1971, global travel was not as prevalent as it is today. Also, with people travelling to endemic countries, claiming their rights would be voilated if they are quarantined, we have become a much more mobile society. Yes, in 1971, ring method may have worked, but in today’s mobile times, it probably would not be realistic.
    In countries such as Haiti, tetanus was rampant amonst patients on board the USNS Comfort following the earthquake. Many patients laid in the rubble for days before rescued and the clostridium tetani lives in soil, thus getting ground into their wounds. They do not have the resources for vaccine campaigns, being the third poorest country on the planet. It was heartbreaking to say the least to watch patients suffer from tetany. What an excruciating disease.
    As far as SIDS goes, we saw a huge drop in SIDS deaths in this country (the US) after the “back to sleep” campaigns in the mid 1990′s.
    Artificial sweetener use soared in the 1970′s, maybe this may have something to do with the number of neurological disorders we see today??? At one point, there was speculation that aspartame was associated with multiple sclerosis, what is to say that using artificial sweeteners in the antipartum period contributed? Also, most autism is diagnosed after the child is introduced to foods (many of which may contain preservatives, pesticides, artificial colors, etc) other than breast milk and formula; causation, correlation, or coincidence?
    Autism Spectrum Disorder is much like many other neurological disorders, there is much speculation, but no actual cause that can be pinpointed. Maybe there are environmental factors in play, maybe a “gene gets switched on” by some trigger, maybe it is a genetic mutation, deletion, framshift mutation. Much study still needs to done.

    Also, your anecdotes are sad and heartbreaking, but they are just that, anecdotes, not qualitative or quantitative study references. You still have yet to support your lengthy arguments with any citations.

  347. Sara
    October 13, 2010 at 8:59 am

    There are a number of things that could be contributing to the rise in autism. You are just convinced that vaccines aren’t one of them.

    And your analogies are silly. If someone (whose mother had eaten McDonald’s chicken nuggets during his gestation) received a flu shot in the morning, watched a TV program, then died that night, which would be the most reasonable culprit? Anything other than the drug that was injected into his body that morning? Common sense should prevail.

  348. Sara
    October 13, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Chris, yeah, I’m not a fan of that color. It doesn’t do much for my complexion. Clever t-shirt, though.

    Liz, I also evaluate the evidence and make a rational decision based on the weight of the evidence – and how it applies to my own family.

    You believe the risk of harm is small compared to the benefit it affords you, I don’t. I have rejected individual vaccines for different reasons. My children are healthier than most. Two of them have never contracted the flu. If they did, we didn’t notice. The one who did had an extremely mild case. Two of them haven’t missed a day of (public) school in two years. Their perfect attendance record is not shared by even one of their fellow classmates. I can count the number of times I have been ill with the flu in my lifetime on one hand. And I wouldn’t dream of getting a flu shot. I would say that our family is fulfilling our “obligation” to society quite nicely. And, there is nothing ‘lucky’ about it.

  349. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 9:45 am

    It is not of relevance to say how many have autism versus how many have received vaccines. Firstly, the number quoted as receiving vaccines is only those who have complete the FULL CDC recommended course and many of the 37.2% will have still received significant levels of toxins from incomplete courses of vaccination. Secondly, and more importantly, the TRUE comparison in rates should be the rates of autism amongst vaccinated versus rates of autism amongst NEVER vaccinated. You won’t find that study anywhere.

    And Ejwillingham, for your own research and intellectual benefit, the studies you refer to are about immunogenic responses between different types of antigens. There has never been a question about immunogenic response. The question is what kind of response is generated and whether the developement of antibodies provides ANY protection at all. The whole AIDS diagnosis itself indicates that the theory of antibody response equals protection is flawed because in AIDS, it is the very presence of antibodies that is used to determine that you have contracted the disease itself. A complete 100% contradiction to all vaccine theory. Show me the double-blind placebo study of however many subjects given thimerasol, formaldahyde, aluminium and borax injections versus a placebo injection with health obersvations made over ANY length of time of 5 years or more. And if you actually studied a bit about immune response, you would realize that injecting antigens directly into the body bypasses the mucosal immune response which is responsible for some 80% of immune response under ordinary circumstances. This is why the immune system over -reacts with T-cell and B-cell overproduction. It has not been tempered by the anatomically correct initial mucosal response. According to some, this over-reaction, particularly of T-cells which are quite large, can cause micro blood vessels in the brain to become blocked causing ischemic events that over time and multiple doses leads to autism spectral disorders. It would, in fact, be incorrect to blindly blame mercury or other additives. It could well be that the entire vaccination model is flawed. One must question why, since the onslaught of vaccine regimes, other, supposedly non-contagious, diseases such as various cancers, Alzheimer’s, dementia, lupus and ASD are at ‘epidemic’ proportions and have risen consistently with the increase in the number of vaccines given. At best, we seem to have traded contagious diseases for non-contagious diseases that are likely caused by the ‘solution’ to contagious diseases.

  350. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 10:13 am

    The plural of anecdote is not data. Come up with actual evidence that the DTaP, Hib, IPV and MMR are more dangerous than the diseases. Otherwise it is just baseless opinion.

  351. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 10:18 am

    All of your assertions are mere opinion. Until you actually back it up with real evidence it will be assumed that you just make it up as you go along. Especially with your scare “facts.”

    Mr. Fryer:

    For me arrogance, ignorance and lack of individual responsibility for harm done says it all.

    Pot, meet kettle.

    Vaccine. 2007 Jan 4;25(2):336-40. Epub 2006 Aug 4.
    Sudden infant death syndrome: no increased risk after immunisation.
    Vennemann MM, Butterfass-Bahloul T, Jorch G, Brinkmann B, Findeisen M, Sauerland C, Bajanowski T, Mitchell EA; GeSID Group.

    CONCLUSIONS: This study provides further support that immunisations may reduce the risk of SIDS.

  352. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 11:30 am

    Gene jumping is not opinion but fact. Similar gun techniques are used to introduce new genetic material into a foreign gene.
    It may or may not be true that injected matter can attach to genes and this is way beyond my expertise and knowledge but the associated increases in pertussis after vaccination campaigns is otherwise unexplainable.

    I am not using scare tactics at all. With the current problems faced by todays infants there is no need to do anything but to halt the catastrophe already seen.

    Scientists, vaccine experts and government not only fail but do refuse to talk to the ordinary person or even experts in the same field who do not hold their views.

    The damning of Dr Andrew Wakefield and Doctor Pustzai in their various fields show this for just two of many examples in the UK alone.

    Why do they deny SIDS is vaccine related? Because they would then accept that mercury in toxins is poisonous. Just look at the trials for vaccines and you will see deaths just written out of the equation. Deaths occur when babies are vaccinated but the vaccine is passed as safe. Years ago this would never happen. Again like the mercury vaccine issue when you have definitive proof of what causes the deaths you can excuse everything else.

    In the 1970′s they put by law a nerve toxic substance in babies clothing and when it was discovered toxic they stopped the process immediately.

    Today in a rerun where mercury has been found in vaccines and found to be toxic we just have a wishy washy remove it ASAP.

    Not good enough.

    The 21st century has enough proof of fraudulent work by the vaccine companies including whole new scientific magazines with paid for researchers willing to put their name to Merck work for huge sums of money.

  353. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Hi Michelle

    You talk much sense when you speak of artificial sweeteners as it is known that aspartame can produce formaldehyde in the body which is one of the most dangerous toxins. It is a certain carcinogen and home experiments with this stuff has produced cancers of huge size in animals.

    But this is part of modern science. They are in it for money ans someone here claimed flu vaccines aren’t big money. Well the 95 per cent H1N1 vaccine not wanted cost the French Government more than a billion euros. Now for most people that is big money and for the vaccine industry it is one country, one vaccine and they make trillions of dollars. In fact top earners in the industry get paid a million dollars a month salary.

    Someone said that people are getting tetanus and can’t affor the vaccine. When I was vaccinated they cost 10 cents a time and today sadly stories of vaccines going for a thousand pounds when they wanted to avoid MMR. So why don’t they supply vaccines for these people free?

    It shows that human life is not important but profit is.

    Tetanus is a deadly illness and is vaccine preventable in complete safety.

    The VAERS for USA alone has now topped a third of million entries and yes we know stupid doctors have entered stupid adverse events but most are heartfelt, genuine and often describe deaths after vaccines. Add to this many ordinary people are not aware of this scheme which can be used by anyone.

  354. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 11:42 am

    It is not denial, it is results from research.

    You’ve left 21 comments on this article, and have yet to provide any proof to your allegations. It is quite obvious you are just making it all up.

    I showed how you were wrong about Japan, and now with SIDS (or are you saying the Germans are liars?). There was never any mercury or aluminum in the MMR vaccine (one of those “old” ones, since it has been around for almost forty years), and all vaccines recommended for children have been available without thimerosal for almost a decade.

    You are just making things up, and no one with any intelligence takes you seriously. Do something else with your retirement, because this troll hobby is not doing you any good.

  355. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Now you are up to 22 fact free troll posts.

    Learn some basic statistics, especially the part about getting data. The self-selected data is the worst… and VAERS is self-selected.

    Until you bring up real verifiable documentation, everything you write will be considered pulled out of thin air and not reliable.

  356. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Hi Liz

    You don’t have much time for Dr Andrew Wakefield but he is too the public the fall guy for a whole department in the most prestigious hospital in the UK. If the GMC really think he is bad then they condemn per se the whole medical system for children in the UK.

    You say he was in it for money. Don’t believe what you read. The hospital and Dr Andrew Wakefield came out of this in the red. The money involved has had a few noughts put on it. Add those noughts and this is what the hospital paid to the people not for what Dr Wakefield did but for another doctor.

    The GMC do get most of decisions right but with alternative medicine they take not a hard line but an unjust line and they are sytematically taking out most of these people with perhaps one exception a lady who outmanoevered them and made them look silly.

    Dr Wakefield will be found to be a victim of dirty tricks of we could get to the bottom of the links to vaccine companies and top judges. Much is out already to show the decision was rigged.

    MMR does not have mercury except where the vaccine people did a stupid thing and put it in to one vaccine and therefore make it useless. It is also given to people over the age of 1 year again except where vaccine companies, doctors and governments have chosen to target younger people for whatever reason.

    For me the damage is done mostly after birth and before 3 months of age when babies are very fragile and vulnerable to the worlds most chemically toxic metal deliberately and unnecessarily added to several vaccines.

  357. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Hi Liz

    Left brain right brain is a guy who lives on top of a mercury emitting power station.

    Power stations emit toxic amounts of mercury.

    Nuff said?

  358. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    You provide no evidence that the MMR had mercury in it. Therefore you made it up. (or you got mixed up on the original Salk vaccine for polio) No where is the MMR given between birth and three months.

    All of the nine babies who have died from pertussis in California were under three months old.

    You present no evidence. No one takes you seriously because you make it up as you go along.

  359. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Which LBRB guy? There are at least two authors who mostly post there, each living in a different country.

    Again you make assertions without proof, because you are making it up.

  360. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    I am not going to actively defend John Fryer, but I will say this, all you really need to do is look at the package inserts that are provided with the vaccines. They tell a completely different story to the one you are trying to portray here. They admit that no immunogenic response occurs in up to 20% of people injected and list adverse reactions the length of my arm from the symptoms of the disease they supposedly are protecting you from (but of course its not REALLY the disease it just walks like it and talks like it) to carcinogenic properties to auto-immune dysfunction to GBS to convulsions. The manufacturer also warns that the measles vaccine “has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential” and “it is…not known whether [it] can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproductive capacity.” Thus, “it would be prudent to assume that the vaccine strain of virus is…capable of inducing adverse fetal effects.” Also, “caution should be exercised when…administered to a nursing woman.” Virtually nobody has long term consequences from the measles, but many have from the vaccine. Thanks but no thanks!

  361. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Most money for autism research into cause is spent on genetics.

    Before you look at this line of work you need to be clear what you are trying to show.

    We know that genetics is a very exact and mathematical science.

    Mendel showed this hundreds of years ago and this mathematical exactitude has been shown for events that occur for boys mainly.

    If you look at any currently known explanation of genes you will never come up with the ratio of boys to girls found today, yesterday or from the onset of the history of autism.

    How can the bulk of money be spent on looking for something when we know from basics can never be found.

    I dont keep up with genes found to be involved but so far it is about half of the total number of chromosomes that are involved.

    Sheer waste of money except that gene research is needed but not for anything to do with finding the cause of autism but to advance this technique of identifying genes.

    In short rather than chase down Dr Wakefield for linking gut problems to autism which we have known for decades but chase down every autism researcher that takes money for gene research and claim they seek the origin of autism.

    Ask them for the model that explains how any gene found anywhere can account for the ratio of boys to girls with the syndrome.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE.

  362. October 13, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    For readers who are new to this thread:

    The original point of my essay is that the extremely low but real risks of vaccination need to be weighed against the very real (e.g., the current pertussis epidemic) risks of not vaccinating our children.

    The mercury/vaccine/autism link has been debunked frequently and well.

    If your child cannot be vaccinated, you can get a medical exemption in all 50 states. Many states, such as California, also offer philosophical exemptions (if you’d like to look up the rates of philosophical exemptions in California schools that include kindergartens, see BayCitizen.org’s stats app: http://www.baycitizen.org/local/counties/immunizations/).

    Again, no evidence supports any of the claims above regarding vaccines and autism. I hope readers will take the time to verify these facts on their own, starting with clicking through the links in my original essay.

  363. October 13, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Whoops, mistyped link above. Here’s the correct one:

    http://www.baycitizen.org/local/counties/immunizations/

  364. Sara
    October 13, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    I never defined it as data.

    Everything written on this page is opinion. Whether it’s baseless or not is also a matter of opinion.

    Since when is it the responsibility of the consumer to prove that a drug is unsafe, ineffective or unnecessary? If the consumer doesn’t think that studies concerning the safety, efficacy or necessity of a drug are adequate, they may simply make the choice not to take that drug.

  365. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Ring methods for disease control are invasive of our rights and wouldn’t work in our mobile society.

    Well smallpox was stopped in the late 70′s after the time we went to the moon so hardly before modern and long distance travel?

    It is used very effectively for rabies in europe and every animal has to have proof of immunity by reason of injections and levels of antibodies.

    So if it is feasible for animals then surely it is feasible for humans?

    People that go to exotic places with exotic illnesses often pay the price.

    I believe many countries insist on vaccinations as a right of entry.

    This causes problems as we see whole communities in the USA with autism where they do not exist in their home country where the cost of vaccination is too high. The explanation to explain this is stretching the model that vaccines are not involved almost to breaking point.

  366. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Evidence that vaccines don’t work?

    Well what can be better than the demand for a second vaccine then a third vaccine.

    If the first cvaccine works then you don’t need others.

    Charles Richet shows further that anaphylaxis will occur before further protection.

    Allergy occurs rather than protection and allergy has been rising non stop for a long time.

    Specific examples are the polio which comes sometimes to the parents of vaccinated infants.

    Vaccines often do work but it does mean that ring fencing eventually becomes the best way to prevent overall harm.

    The problem with this technique is that as shown for smallpox – five years where the rich countries get no vaccines and the poor are the only ones where it is needed does not help a trillion dollar industry.

  367. October 13, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Once again: John Fryer’s comments are a mix of opinion and misinformation.

    He has not bothered to substantiate one claim.

    Readers are advised to investigate any items they think may have merit before forming a final opinion.

  368. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    In fact Chris, why don’t you google this “N.Z. Miller/Medical Veritas 1 (2004) 239–251″ and find out some truth about the polio vaccine, safety and efficacy. If you want to spout more about the ‘crowning jewel’ of the smallpox vaccine, check this out. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/note.php?note_id=10150095776389838&id=680962281. Yes its on facebook, but its a quote from a fully published and footnoted book and the author has NOT been charged with slander or libel, indicating that the evidence provided is accurate. If you are too lazy to read it, here is an excerpt: “In England, compulsory vaccination against smallpox was first introduced in 1852, yet in the period 1857 to 1859, a smallpox epidemic killed 14,244 people. In 1863 to 1865, a second epidemic claimed 20,059 lives. In 1867, a more stringent compulsory vaccination law was passed and those who evaded vaccination were prosecuted. After an intensive four-year effort to vaccinate the entire population between the ages of 2 and 50, the Chief Medical Officer of England announced in May 1871 that 97.5 percent had been vaccinated. In the following year, 1872, England experienced its worst-ever smallpox epidemic, which claimed 44,840 lives. Between 1871 and 1880, during the period of compulsory vaccination, the death rate from smallpox leapt from 28 to 46 per 100,000 population.”

  369. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    You are starting to sound like a pharma shill. There is a plethora of evidence about the links between vaccines and autism. They do not specifically refer to mercury as the culprit. Over 75% of all medical research in the United States is DIRECTLY funded by pharmacuetical companies. The FDA has argued in Court that manufacturers do not need to provide the results of all of their research and studies. Vioxx is a classic example, as was thalidomide, that the companies knew of the risks of their products and did not publish the results. When challenged, the FDA, the protector of OUR health, argued that bad result constituted ‘trade secrets’ and actively worked to block FOIA attempts to prove that the companies acted negligently. This means that the results of most published research are either funded by the companies themselves or are published in journals that are dependent on the advertising money from the companies themselves. That is NOT science. Whenever the independent research surfaces, the researchers are pilloried, per Wakefield, Blaycock, and Moulden amongst others, to discredit their work by attacking them personally. Wakefields work in particular was NEVER disputed. The publishing journal simply retracted their ‘endorsement’. No evidence was ever provided showing any flaws in the research itself or the results.

  370. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Hi Shannon

    The mercury link to vaccines has been debunked.

    That is news to me.

    How do you explain a brain destroying toxic chemical without equal is not destroying brains.

    I have personally talked to some honest people who have “debunked” the Link and they now do not want to be involved anymore with debunking.

    In many countries it is ILLEGAL to inject any mercury compound into anyone let alone a pregant mother or baby.

    Even in USA some states have an illegal clause with some exemptions.

    This must be misinformation to suggest that it is fine to still inject mercury into people?

    As a chemist I know that mercury is a dangerous chemical in all its forms without exception.

    Bayer have been taken to tyask for trying to get it exempted as causing harm.

    The Institute of Medicine et al have examined it for its harm and the change to modern day smacks more of politics and money than good science.

    I am still waiting for someone here to explain why it is good to inject this into people in 2010.

    The link you showed shows a minimum vaccination rate of 83 per cent which is more than enough to keep herd immunity.

    Most of the rates were indeed well over 90 per cent and higher than in France for sure. We have no vaccine preventable illness problems but we have had multiple sclerosis problems, guillain barre problems and diabetes problems along with autism though.

  371. October 13, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    Pharma shills advise people to research independently? Because that is what I advised, and continue to advise — especially regarding your easily refuted claims above regarding Wakefield et al.

    Again, this is about risk, and giving people the information with with to systematically evaluate that risk.

    I would also advise you that making conspiracy-laced accusations in a civil discussion arena undermines your credibility.

  372. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Steve says VAERS are not worthy of the work that goes into them.

    Up to a point I agree as there is much evidence that stupid comments are left there.

    But some comments and most come from the medical profession as these people are AWARE.

    To condemn the register out of hand is showing bias.

    We would all love to use the proper database but we have been told that data there has been LOST. Hence we can not check the Verstraeten paper and he has moved from temping at CDC to a top job with a vaccine company so his company has GAGGED him from talking.

    His statistics started out with a 27 fold link of vaccines with mercury to autism and then went to a prtoective effect in the final document.

    A magnificent joint effort into STATISTICS.

    Take the 2010 report which also shows mercury as a brain improver and preventer of autism. The injection into prenatal children seems to show the opposite or brain destroying effect but doesnt make good reading for some.

    But for children of up to 20 months we see everything is fine and protective with mercury. But if you compare almost similar amounts of mercury how do you get anything from the results.

    Using this kind of approach you could never prove anything.

  373. October 13, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    None of your claims are verifiable, no matter how many times you rephrase them. Please cite sources.

  374. Lea CD
    October 13, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Today I opened my email and found 60+ more messages from this thread.
    And while we are here beating a dead cow, another child with special needs is harmed while in school:

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/schools/pinned-down-palm-beach-county-schoolchildren-subdued-with-964012.html

    And, a kindergarten teacher is on paid leave for breaking the arm of one of the student (did I mention kindergarten?!)

    http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2010/10/08/1037907?sac=Home

    Before posting another message to this thread, please write to your Senators in Washington urging them to take action on the bill on prevention of seclusion and restraint in school.

    http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/1/hr4247

    (Which was passed by the House but it currently dead in the water in the Senate.)

    Please urge anybody in your community to do the same.

  375. Dee
    October 13, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Shannon, thank you for helping steer uncertain parents toward the most current research on vaccines and autism in particular. This article has led to a lot of comments regarding vaccine reactions and side effects, and I understand that people who’ve experienced these effects are afraid of vaccines, just as someone who’d been in a plane crash wouldn’t want to go on a plane again, even knowing that statistically, plane travel is much safer than traveling by car. There are also a lot of commenters who seem to be arguing for improved vaccine safety, and this is a goal we can all support. There is no doubt that vaccines carry risks, but the bottom line is:
    1. There is no link between vaccines and autism, and
    2. More people will die or be seriously harmed by vaccine-preventable illnesses than by the vaccines. Statistically, we are MUCH better off being vaccinated.

    Claims of conspiracies and conflicts of interest, discussions of the different forms of mercury and other toxins, interactions with autoimmune disorders and other underlying conditions–none of these change the numbers. Thanks for helping dispel so much of the misinformation regarding vaccines.

  376. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Sorry, deer. I do not take virology lessons from a journal that has no science (and how did you think I knew that Gary Goldman’s Phd is in computer science) written by a guy with a BS in psychology… not a relevant degree. If you wish to learn about polio, then go to the blog of a virologist who has studied the polio virus for many years:

    http://www.virology.ws/

    I don’t do facebook. I see no reason when there is are plenty of papers at PubMed, books in the library and some very interesting blogs.

    And your rant just proves that epidemics are cyclic, which is old news.

    Also, please avoid the Phrama Shill Gambit. It is old and stupid.

  377. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    I should note that ThinkTwice has been known to play fast and loose with is “proof.”

  378. Michelle
    October 13, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    You wrote: “Well smallpox was stopped in the late 70′s after the time we went to the moon so hardly before modern and long distance travel?”

    Yes, but I argue that the common middle class family did not travel to such exotic locations as is feasible today. World travel was still a luxury that few could afford. There are still pockets of the population in this country today that have never travelled outside of the region where they grew up.

    Also, as far as vaccinating poorer countries, there are several non-profit agencies such as UNICEF that are trying, but they have to prioritize. Unfortunately, charities involved in vaccinating the world’s poor don’t have the funds or manpower to go everywhere, so they must concentrate their efforts in the more popular charities. When the general public thinks of the world’s poor, how many thought of Haiti before the earthquakes? Probably not too many, but the general public probably still sees parts of Africa as the poorest region in the world, that’s what gets the press coverage, so that’s where the charitable contributions go. Remember “live-aid” and the “We Are the World” thing of the late 80′s? I am not saying that we shouldn’t vaccinate there, of course we should help as much as we can, but the US government is facing the biggest deficit in our country’s history, and most other big powers in the world are in similar circumstances. We can’t even afford our own healthcare system, how can we afford to vaccinate the world? I am not only talking about the cost of vaccines here, I am also talking about paying for staff (which would probably be volunteer) to administer the vaccines, the cost of maintaining the “cold chain” of vaccine transport and storage, food and lodging and travel cost of those involved. We are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in ancillary costs that have nothing to do with the actual cost of vaccines.

  379. SJ
    October 13, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Hello, I’m coming from a place of moderate ignorance here in that I am not a scientist and have read layman’s versions of debates and interpretations of scientific studies (meaning articles that summarize what the scientists concluded). Much respect to all participants in this debate for providing facts, science, and keeping it civil.

    Alan Foos said:

    “The facts, unpalatable as they are to many. No vaccine has every prevented a disease. The so called science that says so is a lie, not a science. Vaccines are the major cause of autism, though not the only one, and also the cause of a great many serious illnesses and syndromes. The medical profession and government are knowingly lying about these things, making them every bit the sadistic killers we are likely to see on death row.”

    If we accept the premise that vaccines are useless, then I am having trouble understanding why they are both “useless” and full of toxins. If they are placebos, then why not fill them with something completely inert, like…I dunno, sterile water? Seems cheaper if it’s a moneymaking scheme. If we accept that the toxins are deliberately placed there, then why does the medical profession and the government want to poison millions of people (its entire tax-paying citizenry) over many many years? Even the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (and the recent sad revelation about Guatemala), as horrible and unethical as it was, went for a limited period of time and among a relatively small, disadvantaged population. I am not seeing motivation here, really. Can someone explain?

  380. Poogles
    October 13, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Another reason it seems there is more cancer is we have more people DIAGNOSED with cancer today, through regular screenings and better diagnostics, as well as cancer being primarily a disease of old age – more people are living longer, thus we have more people with cancer.

  381. Poogles
    October 13, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Fair enough, I apologize for my momentary lapse in civility ;-) I found the comment so despicable my disgust got the better of me.

  382. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Can someone explain:

    They want to know why mercury toxin is deliberately added to vaccines.

    The reason is complex but if you accpet that years ago this toxin was a valuable drug and powerful.

    Then it got itself into vaccines and then everybody forgot.

    When Karen Wetterhahn went mad from a single drop of mercury compound through a glove they did a survey of all such compounds and their use.

    When someone mentioned it was in vaccines there was total disbelief.

    Having found it was in and an explanation for a dozen and more health problems they did a how to handle it operation.

    It reads like a novel that no one would believe.

    But it is FACT

    This is putting it simply and no doubt i will be accused of all sorts of misinformation.

    But the bottom line is in 2010 or 1997 we have far better ways to kill and preserve things than in the 1930′s when electricity was a luxury and fridges and deep freezes were a thing of the future for the ordinary person.

    While most of the world is very much advanced the art of vaccines has gone backwards in some ways.

  383. October 13, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Hi SJ,
    Alan Foos made two claims: that no vaccine ever prevented a disease & that vaccines cause autism.

    The first claim is an item of faith in the anti-vaccination catechism. That’s what you have to understand: that the anti-vaccination movement is a belief system, so expecting rationality is, well, perhaps misguided.

    This belief can be proved wrong in the case of particular diseases and vaccines. The blogging surgeon-researcher Orac presents one such example:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/the_intellectual_dishonesty_of_the_vacci.php

    The second claim, that vaccines cause autism, has also been shown to be false. There were two elements to this: that thimerosal, the ethyl-mercury preservative caused autism; the other is that something in the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine caused autism.

    The most recent study disproving the thimerosal hypothesis, Price et al., is discussed here:

    http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=198

    The MMR hypothesis was the brainchild of the disgraced and unethical researcher Andrew Wakefield. His findings have never been replicated. You might want to read Steven Novella MD on the issue

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3716

    You might also want to read a story from another family whose ideas went from anti-vaccination to being vocal proponents for the public health benefits of vaccines:

    http://www.skeparent.com/posts/2010/1/13/why-we-changed-our-minds-and-started-to-vaccinate.html

    You might also want to read today’s story from Rahul Parikh, MD who is a pediatrician. He examines Bob Sears MD’s alternate vaccine schedule and has an email interview with Sears. In short: Parikh finds the schedule wanting and Sears’ understanding of infectious disease and immunology to be rather meager.

    http://www.salon.com/news/autism/?story=/mwt/feature/2010/10/13/vaccine_book_sears

    There’s a previous article by John Snyder MD on the “Sears schedule” and the many holes in Dr. Sears’ understanding of …. well just about everything having to do with vaccines.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=512

    I hope some of these additional resources will help you understand the issues.

  384. John Fryer Chemist
    October 13, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Hi Michelle

    Not sure I can agree as by the time I had finished being a teenager I had visited nearly every country in Europe.

    Today my friends have animals and travel abroad a lot but that doesn’t mean they can get away without rabies injections et al.

    There may well be more travel but then we have advanced and checking of animals with chips etc makes life a lote easier to do controls.

    I just think that injections do go over the top for people who may have little or no risk.

    What upsets me is this mercury in vaccines and the injection before 3 months of live age when they still have built in immunity from their parents.

    The argument is not simple as we are hopefully talking of minute risks and virtually nil for people with good health and vitamin levels.

    The problem from my studies is that people who can’t cope are being forced to have vaccines, often many at one time and follow up health is non existent.

    And of course its being wise after the event. If 100 000 get a vaccine and say one or how many die how do you know in advance.

    But

    GET THE MERCURY OUT.

  385. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    It is interesting that Shannon is so quick to state ‘do your own research’ and then categorically attempt to discredit any research that doesn’t not fit her paradigm. Wakefield’s work has been verified AND the manufacturers themselves admit a link. Instead of calling it autism, they call it encephalitis, i.e. brain injury. The VAERS will NOT as a rule pay a claim for any claim of autism, but they have paid out hundresds of millions to ‘brain injury’ claims as long as the evil ‘A’ word isn’t mentioned. Also, at no time have I suggested a ‘conspiracy’, I have only pointed out that pharmacuetical companies provide advertising money to the journals that choose to report research findings. It is not conspiracy theory to say that the journals may make decisions based on economics rather than science. There have been examples, Merck in particular, where journals were created for the sole purpose providing ghost written ‘peer reviewed’ claims for marketing purposes. At no time have I previously alluded to them.

    A classic example of how mainstream media treat the subject can be found here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100913/hl_nm/us_mercury_autism

    The headline is “No link found between vaccine mercury and autism”. The research quoted only showed that small amounts of mercury are as dangerous as higher amounts of mercury. The rates of autism were statistically the same whether the subject received a few or all of the vaccines in the regime containing mercury. The conclusion was that mercury does not cause autism. What a farce! If they wanted to prove that mercury did not cause autism, they should have compared to a control group receiving no vaccines at all. One group does exist, at least they have a much lower uptake than the population at large: the Amish. They have SIGNIFICANTLY lower autism rates than the population at large. Based on the population at large model there should be approximately 130 cases of autism in the Amish community at 1 in 166, in fact there are 3. Here is the article that has been removed from the Washington Post which originally reported the anomaly: http://www.whale.to/vaccine/olmsted.html

    Going back to my original comment that there have been no legitimate double-blind placebo studies about vaccines and the link to autism, here is a website that deconstructs the claims made by others here that these studies have been done. They have not. http://www.fourteenstudies.org/

    Research for yourself and find out the truth. Unfortunately, some people let the need to be right get in the way of the discovery of truth, for others there is an unspoken agenda. I do not profit in any way from my comments, my line of work is completely unrelated to healthcare. I simply love my family and my children too much to not search for the truth.

  386. Steve Michaels
    October 13, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    Just as a side note, if you think pharmacuetical companies have our ‘health’ as their priority, you may find the book ‘Side Effects: Death’ to be insightful. The preface can be found here: http://john-virapen.com/en/books/side-effects-death.html

    I have read the book. There is no reason to doubt the author. He does not come across in any way as a sympathetic character. The insights are more for perscription drugs than vaccines, but the same companies make and SELL (the operative word) these products. If we were all healthy, they would have no sales.

  387. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Which pediatric vaccines still have thimerosal?

    Your failure to answer that simple question with actual evidence indicates that you are making things up in your closed mind. You are not taken seriously.

  388. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    Pediatric vaccines have been thimerosal free for almost a decade. Are you living in a time warp?

    Your failure to answer any question with actual data shows you are just making things up, and are not taken seriously.

  389. SJ
    October 13, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Thanks, Liz Ditz. There is this part of me that as an adult, never stopped asking “Why? Why?” like a preschooler. Reading through these comments, I found myself wondering how far the whys could chain back, and how many answers and justifications there were for these unsupported theories about vaccines. But you’re right, looks all “faith-based” to me. Thanks again for your tireless work here.

  390. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    Comment in moderation… but do look up “Scopie’s Law.”

  391. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    Interesting concept: some pharmaceuticals are bad, so all of them are bad. Therefore vaccines are bad.

    So do you go around telling people with Type 1 Diabetes to stop taking insulin, teenagers with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy to stop taking beta-blockers, someone with strep throat to stop taking antibiotics and kids with cystic fibrosis to stop taking their meds?

  392. October 13, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    There is not a HSR committee on the planet that could condone a study arranged a priori to not vaccinate children and to pretend to do so. It’s *unethical*. Thus, a placebo-controlled study of the kind you describe ain’t gonna happen. There is, however, a lovely new case-control study looking at thimerosal and autism recently out. That’s as good and as ethical as it’s gonna get, and it also happens to be sufficient.

  393. October 13, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    I find it interesting that a person would take issue with my advice to research Wakefield and related antivaccine conspiracy matters if they don’t want to take my word for topics like Wakefield’s being discredited — especially as the man’s censure, retracted research, and revoked medical license huge stories in the popular media.

  394. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    Emily, in my moderated comment I do ask how they would protect children from harm caused by a real disease since the proposed study is supposed to go for at least six years.

    I would also like to mention that unfortunately these types of studies were done, but on disabled children. All he has to do is look up what happened at the Willowbrook School. At Orac’s blog, there was someone who was very indignant about the tests done there and elsewhere (like the Letchworth Village for Feeble Minded and Epileptic), but his website showed that he supported this proposed vax/unvax study. I asked him multiple times how he would protect the unvaxed kids… but nothing yet (except an echo from a spam bot).

  395. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    Forgot to mention, conversation was about the Guatemala syphilis experiment.

  396. Chris
    October 13, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Put in the wrong place, conversation was on the Guatemala experiment.

  397. October 14, 2010 at 1:15 am

    Karen, thank *you* for speaking up.

  398. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 3:13 am

    First of all, just because it is in the press does not mean that the reporting is accurate or unbiased. As far as the ‘unethical’ studies go, they can only be deemed unethical IF the researcer conducting the study already recognizes that the harm will be done to the group. The fact that you believe it unethical, or the ‘powers that be’ believe it unethical to inject mercury, aluminium or other additives on their own for safety research is itself an admission of the dangers these substances pose. I had all of my mercury fillings removed to be safe. Did you know that when the amalgam arrives at your dentist’s office it is marked as hazardous? When they are removed, it requires special ventilation and the removed fillings most be treated as hazardous waste? Even ‘low energy’ lightbulbs, for the TINY amount of mercury in them are placed in lead containers because they are hazardous waste? Yet by some unknown magical process, if you place this substance in someone’s mouth or combine it with antigens, pathogens, detergents and rat poison (yes borax is in some of these vaccines) these KNOWN toxins suddenly not only become ‘safe’ but some here have argued they become healthy to use. Can you explain how the second most toxic substance to man is magically transformed when its is injected or placed in a person’s mouth?

  399. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 3:34 am

    As an additional side note, it would be much more surprising for Wakefield to have NOT been sticken off by the GMC. He has questioned the very foundation of the modern medical ethos by finding fault with the concept that we are all customers of the industry whether we are ill or not. The whole concept that healthy people need drug intervention is abhorrent to me. To listen to you and others who seem to promote this mentality, you would think that it was only luck of the draw that mankind survived 10′s of thousands of years until pharmacuetical interventions saved us. And lest we forget, since that intervention chronic illness previously known and unknown are at all time highs. Cancer, which was a 1/1000 event at the turn of the century, 1/10 when I was growing up in the ’70′s is now 1/3. Health care professionals are so worried about ‘early detection’ and treatment they have either ignored or forgotten PREVENTION. As simple study on breast cancer at the University of Indiana showed a 40% reduction in breast cancer INCIDENCE by simply taking a bioavailable calcium supplement in low doses (lower than RDA). A double-blind placebo study I might add. Yet in ‘Breast Cancer Awareness Month’ it has received nearly zero coverage. And you don’t think the media reporting of Wakefield couldn’t be biased?

  400. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 4:09 am

    How do they get it wrong?

    ASK THE EXPERTS!

    These words haunt me.

    I know that vaccines can protect us but I also know they harm us.

    Autorities don’t listen.

    The numbers of SIDS falls and everything is fine.

    Someone mentioned the « Back to Sleep » campaign reduced the SIDS.

    They don’t mention removing brain destroying, carcinogenic material from contact with babies and heavy metals etc may also have played its part in SIDS.

    That would be admitting error on the part of government and regulators.

    I watched a programme last night on the case of Clarence Elkins

    Serving 55 years for murder of his wife’s mother.

    The story started when the police were alerted to a brutal murder.

    The woman had been beaten to death in a struggle where blood and debris was strewed over every room in the house.

    A little girl, the daughter of the other daughter was staying for the night and a witness. She knocked on the neighbour’s door to alert them to this crime.

    The police had lots to go on. Semen, finger nails, blood, hair of the assassin.

    A classic case for THE EXPERTS.

    Well, to cut a long story short, the girl said it was the other daughter’s husband Clarence that did this crime and he got his come uppance. 55 years in prison and LUCKY not to be terminated.

    Well the experts sidestepped the fact that semen, nails, blood and hair didn’t fit that of Clarence and that at the time he was a mere 60 kilometres away and too drunk to drive home, let alone a 2 hour round trip. No history of any crimes or violence other than any other person.

    To add to the confusion, no trace of blood, disorder, stained clothes could be found in his car or at his home.

    Further how could he have absconded from his bed he shared with his wife in the middle of the night and returned unnoticed?

    Still they had their man, and 55 years was too kind for him. If he lived to be 110 he could see fresh air again.

    THE EXPERTS!

    How can they get it wrong?

    They DON ‘T. That is they NEVER admit they do. They didn’t get it wrong here.

    They don’t get it wrong with vaccines.

    They are

    THE EXPERTS!

    Well there was one expert.

    Clarence had a wife who watched

    THE REAL EXPERTS

    Those on TV series and she got her evidence.

    She found a man with the same DNA as the blood, the semen, the hair the lot.

    This was not easy for the DNA testing is EXPENSIVE and the state had NO INTENTION of doing the test.

    What is the point.

    The conviction is safe;

    The culprit is inside.

    We are the Experts.

    Fortunately much autism research is used to do this very expensive genetic testing. Thanks mugs for the money they say?

    Once provided with evidence of the real person who was guilty the authorities prevaricated.

    You can’t be certain they said.

    Well thanks to even better DNA they did the test again and it came the same.

    I can almost predict the words of the prosecutor.

    « We place great faith in DNA (yes for autism research etc) and we are sure with the knowledge we have today we would not have found Clarence guilty of murder. »

    Well they did have evidence at the first trial and REFUSED to look at it as it was INCONVENIENT.

    The culprit turned out to be not a person drunk in bed 60 miles away but the next door neighbour who was a child molester.

    You see the crime was not the murder of the mother but the violation of a six year old.

    The mother may have been killed simply for trying to stop the child molester molesting a child.

    Of course, can we blame authority for not suspecting a neighbour with a criminal record for child molesting when the crime on the book was murder of a 50 year old woman?

    I mean they are completely different.

    Such is the expertise of EXPERTS.

    So how can they get it wrong and insist injecting the worlds chemically most toxic and poisonous compounds into 1 day babies a safe and efficace way of protecting them from harm?

    ASK THE EXPERTS!

    How do they get it wrong?

  401. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 4:37 am

    Two sides of the same coin

    It is sad that people on both sides seem to get so much wrong.

    No sensible person can doubt that the smallpox vaccine played some part in the elimination of the disease.

    Surveillance keeps illness to small numbers alongside good hygiene and clean water.

    But the vaccine killed off the last cases of smallpox. Without the vaccine there would still be smallpox today. Sadly because of those that make the vaccines and governments like we deserve, we still have vaults full of the stuff.

    But to give the flu vaccine ye ar after year is asking for trouble from vaccine knowledge found more than a hundred years ago.

    Allergy, anaphylaxis etc are certain to arrive to some.

    Flu, yes, can kill but so can a dangerous vaccine repeatedly given until it does.

    I remember reading in the VAERS, that any vaccine supporter HATES with a PASSION, that one nurse reading the obituary column noticed the death announced to a patient she had just given a flu vaccine to. Knowing he was checked to be fit and healthy before you give vaccines she had the sense to notify VAERS. Otherwise this was just one more sudden unexplained adultdeath. Today we have knowledge it was just one more death coincidentally, temporally but almost uncertainly related to the vaccine or the brain destroying mercury in it or the fact unknown of how many other times he had the same injection to prove that hundreds of vaccine researchers on anaphylaxis just made up the word to extend our vocabulary.

    We need to get real and find out why for example in France more than 80 per cent will inject from the age of 3 months vaccines ONE at a time into their child but will to the level of more than 95 per cent reject one solitary, harmless, flu vaccine for themselves.

    I mean as someone here tells us. I had it and I didn’t drop dead or become uncapable of speech. Vaccines can get up to safety levels of 1 in 100 000 adverse events but something, somewhere makes neurological problems for 1 in 3 babies born in 2010 USA.

    We do earnestly need to look at the evidence but we need to take into account that evidence of wrong doing, is evidence of wrong doing.

    The authorities have admitted that mercury should be out of vaccines, so they can’t go back on this, so why do they?

    They have doctored results and data to excuse vaccines and so if a government committee says that is OK then we must accept fraud in high places is PROVEN. Or do we accept fraud and data changing as science?

    We cannot in justice continue to condone injecting mercury into children in the light of the fraud and known harm of this compound.

    But we need to accpet tests that show there are SAFE vaccines which really are SAFE.

    And accept mercury vaccines still show up TOXIC when diluted more than 100 fold.

    Two sides of the same coin

  402. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 4:46 am

    Pediatric vaccines have been thimerosal free for almost a decade. Are you living in a time warp?

    No Chris

    Are you admitting mercury in vaccines is BAD?

    Of course not!

    Facts speak for themselves.

    Mercury is STILL in vaccines and to say that they are out of babies vaccines is being wrong today and dismissing past harm from certainly 30 years of increasing exposure of babies to mercury making some if they survived more than 40 years old today.

    So flu vaccines still have mercury in them and are given to the pre-natal infant via the pregnant mother.

    So its OK to give mercury to an infant who has been conceived for up to nine months and is in the womb.

    Do you remember thalidomide and its effects on brain development.

    Doctors seem to share your warp as thalidomide makes more profits today from its use than when given to pregnant mums 50 years ago.

    That’s what I call BACKWARD progress.

    The latest research showed autism harm to infants in the womb exposed to 1microgram average of thimerosal.

    This just happens to be the amount in your mercury free vaccines for babies.

    You did know mercury free means that mercury is in them. Didn’t you?

    Pediatric vaccines have been thimerosal free for almost a decade. Are you living in a time warp?

  403. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 4:51 am

    The chestnut of unvaccinated vs vaccinated is protected by ETHICS.

    Last year some pregnant mothers got mercury vaccines and some mothers didnt.

    There are huge numbers in each category.

    Why can’t people look at what happened next?

    And they do give blank vaccines when doing safety trials and hey presto more die in the blanks and so a vaccine that kills at a rate of 1 in 2 000 gets the go ahead.

    But blank vaccines have mercury and every other ingredient as you only test the pathogen for safety.

    Brain destroying mercury is known to be safe to these charlatans.

  404. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 5:59 am

    Just a few references for Shannon to mull over, lest there be accusations of not providing reference evidence:

    # Oleske, J. “Elevated rubeola [measles] titers in autistic children.” Abstract presented by D. Zecca and Dr. Graffino at an NIH meeting (September 23, 1997). As quoted by Richard Gallup in “Autism and autoimmunity.” http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/18/14/10.html April 15, 2002.
    # Fudenberg, H.H. “Dialysable lymphocyte extract (DlyE) in infantile onset autism: a pilot study.” Biotherapy 1996; 9:143-147.
    # Gupta, S. “Immunology and immunologic treatment of autism.” Proceedings of the National Autism Association, Chicago 1996: 455-460.
    # Wakefield, A.J., et al. “Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children.” Lancet 1998; 351:637-641.
    # Yazbak, F.E. “Autism: Is there a vaccine connection? Part I. Vaccination after delivery.” 1999. Part I
    # Yazbak, F.E. “Autism: Is there a vaccine connection? Part II. Vaccination around pregnancy.” 1999. Part II
    # Yazbak, F.E. “Autism: Is there a vaccine connection? Part III. Vaccination around pregnancy, the sequel.” 2000. Part III
    # “Autism: Present Challenges, Future Needs — Why the Increased Rates?” Government Reform Committee Hearing, Washington, DC. (April 6, 2000.)
    # Bernard, S., et al. “Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning,” (July 2000). Submitted to the Government Reform Committee Hearing, Washington, DC. (July 18, 2000.) http://www.house.gov/reform/healthcare/mercury_paper.htm
    # “Autism: Why the Increased Rates? A One-Year Update.” Government Reform Committee Hearing, Washington, DC. (April 25-26, 2001.)
    # “The Autism Epidemic: Is the NIH and CDC Response Adequate?” Government Reform Committee Hearing, Washington, DC. (April 18, 2002.)
    # “The Status of Research into Vaccine Safety and Autism.” Government Reform Committee Hearing, Washington, DC. (June 19, 2002.)
    # Kawashima, K., et al. “Detection and sequencing of measles virus from peripheral mononuclear cells from patients with inflammatory bowel disease and autism.” Digestive Diseases and Sciences (April 2000); 45:723-729.
    # Reuters Medical News. “Measles persistence confirmed in some patients with IBD, autistic enterocolitis.” (June 20, 2000). http://www.id.medscape.com/reuters/prof/2000/ 06/06.20/20000620scie001.html
    # Wakefield, A.J. et al. “Enterocolitis in children with developmental disorders.” American Journal of Gastroenterology 2000; 95(9):2154-2156.
    # Wakefield, A., et al. “Measles, mumps and rubella vaccine: through a glass, darkly.” Adverse Drug Reaction and Toxicologica Reviews 2000; 19(4):265-283.
    # Kiln MR, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 May 2;351(9112):1358.
    # Selway, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998. Medical practitioners need to give more than reassurance.” BMJ 1998 Jun 13;316(7147):1824.
    # Nicoll A, Elliman D, Ross E, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998,” MJ 1998 Mar 7;316(7133):715-716.
    # Lindley K J, Milla PJ, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.”Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907-908.
    # Bedford H, et al, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907.
    # Vijendra K. Singh, Sheren X. Lin, and Victor C. Yang, “Serological Association of Measles Virus and Human Herpesvirus-6 with Brain Autoantibodies in Autism,” Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, Oct 1998, Vol. 89, No. 1, p 105-108.

  405. Michelle
    October 14, 2010 at 6:03 am

    We do discuss prevention with our patients, we haven’t ignored it. The simple fact is that 80% of breast cancers are in women that have no risk factors, therefore, prevention AND screening are equally important.

    Also, vaccines are PREVENTION.

  406. October 14, 2010 at 6:37 am

    That’s a lot of references. A lot of really old references. From 2002 and before — exactly the time frame I talked about in my essay, when such fears were being systematically explored and have since been debunked and/or declared unfounded. Exactly the reason I wrote and then updated this essay.

    They are also from sources like the National Autism Association, which promotes biomedical treatments and mercury/vaccine causation for autism, and whose recommended reading list (http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/psa.php#reading) includes exactly one book — The Out of Sync Child — that doesn’t have to do with “cure” or “recovery” or autism/vaccine myths.

    You are also listing exploration papers or papers submitted, rather than papers peer-reviewed and then published.

    Wakefield’s 1998 research linking the MMR vaccine, inflammatory bowel disease, and autism was:
    - Immediately contradicted and questioned by other researchers:

    http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/70886.htm

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2898%2926012-0/fulltext

    -Rejected by most of his co-authors in 2004:

    http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/Lancet-MMR-03-2004.htm

    -Declared unethical by the British General Medical Council in 2010:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8483865.stm

    -Completely retracted by The Lancet, the journal which published his paper, in 2010:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704022804575041544115791952.html

    -Resulted in him being struck off the UK medical register/losing his medical license (i.e., he’s no longer Doctor Wakefield, he’s just Andrew Wakefield):

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7134893.ece

    Yazbak is a notorious anti-vaccine crank and Wakefield disciple who uses his roles as a retired pediatrician and grandparent of a child with autism to opine at length about — again — unsubstantiated autism/vaccine causation. None of the writings you’ve listed for him have publication listings, let alone links. They are merely his writings.

    Not one of those papers stands up to current scientific standards and findings about autism and vaccines.

  407. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 6:40 am

    Fatty Pants is a brilliant scientist.

    Yes unlike some I did LOOK.

    So we are told by Shannon and there is no doubt she is right.

    But the first article of Miss Fatty Pants is by Polish authors who show incredible picture evidence of harm to the brains of animals with thimerosal injected into them at the amount similar to a mercury vaccine.

    Hardly evidence that mercury is safe?

    She goes on to admit people have peanut allergy.

    But I remember when young that this did NOT exist.

    Like autism and lots of other illnesses they have mushroomed.

    And of course peanuts are put in vaccines.

    Peanut oil is/was a treasured adjuvant for the vaccine cowboys who ignore the induction of allergy from repeat vaccines.

    So Miss Fatty Pants perhaps it isn’t JUST autism that may be mercury vaccine related but also deadly peanut allergies from repeat peanut oil vaccines?

    And it took many years to actually find this ingredient in vaccines.

    You see like thimerosal it was once a closely guarded vaccine makers secret.

    Don’t want people to add two and two and get four when they presently make it five.

  408. October 14, 2010 at 6:43 am

    Comment held up in moderation due to links – but here’s the first part:

    That’s a lot of references. A lot of really old references. From 2002 and before — exactly the time frame I talked about in my essay, when such fears were being systematically explored and have since been debunked and/or declared unfounded. Exactly the reason I wrote and then updated this essay.

    It’s 2010. It’s not 2003. My essay is about current research. You’ll need to update your resources if you’re going to contradict mine.

  409. October 14, 2010 at 6:48 am

    Mr. Fryer is once again opining about misinformation without citing a single source.

    He has also not bothered to note that “Daisy May Fatty Pants” is the name of commenter/scientist EJWillingham’s dog — as was noted above. If he can’t parse that simple information correctly, then that speaks to his ability to synthesize the more complicated autism and vaccine information and research being discussed in this space.

  410. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 7:00 am

    Oh is that how it works? The ‘god-like’ scientists (or worse yet bureaucrats) ‘declare’ things unfounded. If other studies after these showed different results, then it warrants further research as to what differences there were in the controls of the study, socio-economic, actual additives, age of vaccination. A different result does not automatically mean that something has been ‘de-bunked’. Results do not ‘age’ and go moldy or spoil just because the study was done years ago. If you accept that logic you are admitting that NO flu vaccine has been adequately tested since ALL approval certificates are grandfathered from testing done in the 70′s and before with ingredients significantly different to what is being used today.

    You do selectively ignore points and lackadaisically gloss over points you claim (without reference) are not valid. What about the REAL comparison of Amish to the general population? No comment I guess? How about the NIH safety studies that excluded the most vulnerable pregnant women? The rationale they used was pointless. Especially considering that the tests they actually DID do were with a different product to the ones given the general population. No comment I guess? How about the specious claim that smallpox was iradicated by vaccines when the British Medical Journal specifically states otherwise? No comment I guess.

  411. October 14, 2010 at 7:26 am

    Readers should know that Steve Michael’s list of older articles, news reports, and government reports is copied & pasted from a webpage, “Think Twice” (the “Global Vaccine Institute”), which circulates anti-vaccine information. The “Think Twice” list is of questionable value, as it includes:

    Wakefield et al. (1998). Readers should know that the paper was totally retracted in 2010 , after 10 of the original authors retracted in 2004:

    Murch SH, Anthony A, Casson DH, Malik M, Berelowitz M, Dhillon AP, Thomson MA, Valentine A, Davies SE, Walker-Smith JA. Retraction of an interpretation. Lancet. 2004 Mar 6;363(9411):750.
    Exerpt:

    We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient. However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon these findings in the paper

    Also please note that the Yazbak (1999) articles are published only on Whale.to, an infamous repository of misinformation. That website includes the full text of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious anti-Semitic forgery in which vaccinations are viewed as an essential element of a dastardly Jewish plot to:

    utterly exhaust humanity with dissension… even by the use of torture; by starvation; by the inoculation of disease; by want, so that the goyim see no other course open to them than to take refuge in our complete sovereignty in money and in all else.

    For readers wanting a list of more recent articles, please see the excellent resources at Science-Based Medicine on the topic of vaccines and autism, in which an exhaustive list of papers are summarized

    http://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/vaccines-and-autism/

    For example:

    Wilson K., et al. July . Association of Autistic Spectrum Disorder and the Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccine. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2003;157: 628-34.

    Summary: This article reviewed the available literature on measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and autistic spectrum disorders (ASD). A total of 12 studies (from 5 countries) examining the hypotheses put forward by Dr Wakefield and colleagues were reviewed in detail. None of the studies examined provided evidence of an association between autistic spectrum disorders and MMR. The review did not find any evidence of an epidemic of ASD related to MMR, nor evidence of an association between a variant form of autism and the MMR vaccine. The authors state that ‘Given the real risks of not vaccinating and that the risks and existence of variant ASD remain theoretical, current policies should continue to advocate the use of MMR vaccine’.

  412. October 14, 2010 at 7:51 am

    There is more current research on the topics you’ve listed — to stop the clock at 2002 is absurd.

    And, as I wrote, a longer and more detailed comment is held up in moderation due to the many specific resources/links it cites.

  413. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 8:24 am

    Unfortunately, I have seen the government documents and listened to the funders of vaccine research and propagation as well as seen documents related to Agenda 21 (not a theory, a well documented UN program) which specifically state that vaccines are part of a depopulation program. Whether it is through forced sterilization (the addition of Tween 80 or polysorbate) or through the direct and indirect destruction of the immune systems of recipients, the shills are either misinformed as to motivations for studies or funding sources for convenient research to ‘debunk’ others or are working in tandem with the misinformation. There are so many scientist and doctors who have published works about the workings of the pharmacuetical industy, the AMA, the BMJ and others who have been pilloried. Yes I checked your sources Liz Ditz, and aside from my shock that you would try to intimate that I am anti-semitic when I am in fact Jewish (not that you would have known that) and discovered that virtually any mention of dissenting views were prefaced in these papers with names like ‘liar’ ‘quack’ and others. This only highlights my point.

  414. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 8:45 am

    You have all claimed to come from the moral high ground of ‘do your own research’ yet invariably discredit ALL research that refutes your provaccine agenda. Of course you believe that all of the studies and research that show causality were set up and biased by the researchers in advance to further the anti-vaccine agenda. Hence the preface of many sources as being from the ‘skeptic’ or anti-vaccine campaigners. Only the research, funded by pharmacuetical companies, and ONLY published if the results match the desired outcome (refer back to the FDA claim that bad results need not be disclosed under FOI because they constitute ‘trade secrets’) are unbiased. Many of your supposed ‘non-biased’ researchers are working for or with research centers that are partially or wholly funded by the industry itself. Now back to one of my earlier questions:

    What manner of divine providence occurs that makes mercury, formaldahyde, aluminium and borax mystically safe when injected when they are ALL listed as toxins and poisons by the FDA, CDC, WHO, et al.?

  415. October 14, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Again, readers will note that our arguments are “evidence demonstrates,” and that commenters like Steve Michaels’ argument is “I don’t believe you.” Or, “I don’t like your evidence, I like mine better.” His is a good approach for fact-twisters like Glenn Beck and people who want to believe there is a vaccine/autism link, it’s a bad approach for people who are interested in a fact bolstered by current science and evidence: that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

    We encourage readers to do there own research, generally. But when you consistently bring up topics that can be quickly debunked, we owe it to the readers to do just that.

  416. October 14, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Ha ha: “…their own research”!

  417. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 10:43 am

    And you have still avoided the prospect of divine intervention to make deadly poisons safe… And yes I do look for the most unbiased studies. They are few and far between.

  418. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 10:50 am

    And just as to point out what YOU are really saying: You like yours better than mine. When in doubt, I prefer to use supplements and avoid doctors like the plague. We have, as a society, come a long way from when health care was a ‘calling’ to where we are all just cash registers for corporate interests. Take the cancer example. The research is current and clear that calcium supplementation reduces the incidence of breast cancer by 40%. At an average profit to pharmacuetical companies of $300,000 for a full course of breast cancer treatment, how much money will they lose if there is a 40% reduction in ‘demand’? How much extra profit did they make by continuing to market Vioxx for years after the company KNEW that it was killing people? Do you REALLY believe that companies that only profit from illness want us to be healthy? If you really do, you are dillusional to economics and if you say you do but don’t really mean it, then you are one of the profiteers!

  419. Chris
    October 14, 2010 at 11:04 am

    It has long been known that “Think Twice” is careless with its evidence:

    http://www.pathguy.com/antiimmu.htm

  420. Sara
    October 14, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Yes, I’d say that Shannon, Emily and Liz are sanctimonious and delusional. I doubt any of them are profiteers. Although they appear to be vigorously campaigning.

  421. October 14, 2010 at 11:29 am

    Readers will be able to read this thread and determine whose evidence makes most sense. Is it the select and biased series of reports from the 1998 – 2002 Wakefield era, and claims of big pharma conspiracy on matters unrelated to vaccines? Or is it the current reports that methodically demonstrate how claims of vaccine – autism link are without basis?

  422. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Again Shannon you have avoided my cogent question… By what process do known toxins and poisons becomes safe when injected? There is absolutely no question that the heavy metals mercury and aluminium are toxic. Aluminium has been linked to dementia and Alzheimer’s and you may or may not be aware that mercury was used as a classic treatment in the early 1900′s. The good doctors told their patients that the hair and tooth loss, the weight loss and other mercury poison symptoms were clearing out the bad humors. If it doesn’t hurt, it doesn’t help. When the consensus on mercury use was finally broken, those that continued to recommend its usage were called quick-silvers or quicks. That eventually became ‘quacks’. Of course making fancy names for things like thimerasol took the spotlight off of the mercury. But the quacks are still using it. I recommend that you research this site: http://www.fourteenstudies.org/index.html. You will find exactly what I am saying, the studies you quote do NOT EVER study autism rates between NON vaccinated and vaccinated, only rates of autism between different vaccines. And efficacy is determined by immunogenic antibody response, which, as I pointed out earlier, is a highly suspect parameter if you consider that vaccines claim antibodies = protection yet AIDS claims antibodies = infection and death. Which is it? You have again ignored the real questions I pose.

  423. October 14, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    You believe your assertions have merit, I get that — belief is a powerful force.

    But what you are asserting is some of the most tired, most hackneyed, most copied-and-pasted, most frequently debunked theories on autism/vaccine causation around — no one outside the antivaccination movement considers Fourteen Studies anything but flawed, for instance. And no one is going to do a vaccinated/non-vaccinated study because 1) it’s effectively already been tone and 2) contemporary study design/ethical reasons, as Liz Ditz detailed above, at length: http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/#comment-594.

    Thimerosal (mercury preservative) has been removed from scheduled childhood vaccines.

    Your statements about immunogenic antibody response & AIDS are water-muddiers and distractions, and are not relevant to this discussion. Try putting them in a an autism/vaccine-specific context, otherwise you’re just setting off smoke bombs.

  424. John Fryer Chemist
    October 14, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    The mercury-autism issue

    One argument used often is that autism is not increasing but is due to better recognition. This is then overuled by the same people when they talk of the removal of mercury but a still increasing number of autism children.

    The CDC give the lie to this as they show the rise as does the California data figures. Figures often sadly out of date.

    There is little doubt autism is rising and in USA as high as anywhere in the known world with some countries having ten times less but not using mercury vaccines for the most part.

    This tells me at least that the culprit is not floating around the globe or is anything to do with genes but is something done peculiarly in USA and some other countries but not all others.

    One sure fire suspect is the vaccine programme unique to the USA and certain other satellite nations. And in this programme are still many mercury vaccines at different levels where the mercury is deliberately added and imperfectly removed.

    Genetic explanations don’t warrant even further money until there is a genetic model to explain the ratio of boys affected over and above girls. There is no known model of genetics that can explain this. Genetic research is genetic research but it is not autism cause research.

    Everybody on both sides of the debate on mercury harm got caught out by the CDC propaganda of mercury removal from 1999. We know now that the removal was an option for the vaccine companies who still maintain a full range of mercury vaccines with flu vaccines with mercury given recently to pregnant mothers and the pre-natal unborn infant. Some few people still maintain that no baby can get mercury vaccines anywhere in the world. This is blatantly not true as is the notion that thimerosal is the only non-toxic mercury compound we know of.

    Toxicology of thimerosal easily explains most incidences of autism and predicts many other illnesses as well. We have LD50 for amounts sufficient to kill half a population as well as LD1 the amount to kill one in hundred. Although not standard it is feasible to imagine slightly less might take out one in a thousand and thimerosal not to be innocuous at low levels of a microgram to 25 micrograms as in lots of vaccines. One reason is that mercury compounds are catalytic and so small amounts still retain their toxicity but take that bit longer. And if the poison doesn’t kill, then it is evident that a brain destroying compound will affect brains also at random as the mercury may stop at the heart, the eyes, the pancreas and target there rather than the brain. Hence the wide and different chances of different illnesses.

    We have advanced to considering several toxins at the same time causing obvious additive harm but less obvious synergy or increased and unexpected harm as well. For mercury a sex different susceptibility of toxic harm due to different hormones in boys and girls. We know the more male the boy the more the mercury harms. We are moving to an effeminate society for more reasons than the selective attack in tandem with testosterone hormone.

    All this makes thimerosal predictions for adverse effects far too close to write off its harm as implausible.

    We are at LD0.1 levels for thimerosal in vaccines so we can expect one death for a thousand mercury vaccines which is what we observe.

    We can expect many more boys with autism than girls which is what we get.

    We can predict autism to vary widely from near death and inability to manage alone to those where few systems only are affected leading to increased ability in areas left untouched – the savant autism.

    For mercury that damages the pancreas we can expect rise in diabetes.

    For mercury that stops at the eye nerves we can get increasing people needing glasses and later maybe the eye suffering serious damage.

    If the mercury stores in the heart it can cause heart attacks.

    And the damage to the liver is already widely accepted and known.

    How do we know which baby injected with mercury will get what or which will escape harm?

    The answer is or lies in pure chance.

    Hence people with few vaccines may suffer while those with more escape.

    This is the lottery of injecting toxic material into babies giving of course the girls the best chances for good health and of course protection from those killer illnesses as a bonus.

    Risk and benefit analysis is used to continue an increasing and earlier vaccine policy as shown by the Mad as a Hatter new 2009 policy of injecting mercury vaccine into pregnant mum and pre-natal child to « protect » them.

    Trying to prove that thalidomide never happened perhaps or not even being aware of harm to the foetus from toxic matter?

    The other thing of small amounts is the latency or time to problems. Study of the death of Karen Wetterhahn show that quite small amounts can leave an adult in perfect health for five months but kill them in a CJD fashion also in the same time. Ten months from perfect health to death is ominously similar to mercury bathed children up to 3 months losing their talk, health and brains more than a year later and temporally connected to the final solution containing a mix of three different live viruses or fragments of them.

    Work of vaccine scientists over the past, reinforce the anaphylaxis of giving repeat vaccines or even different vaccines with some same ingredients.

    Research in USA, UK and other countries carefully controlled but that of the Eastern European nations not using the same dishonesty gives an amazing difference of tone from vaccine studies.

    Even films of mercury but not lead destroying brain cells are shrugged off as of no concern even though the amount is that in one vaccine diluted evenly in a body. Yes we know most of the time it wont get to the brain but brainless to think it never gets there.

    Modern studies that purport to prove that mercury is not dangerous have glaring flaws that any honest person can see through. I have yet to see one that isnt full of holes. The usual trick is to select from a large base so 30 per cent are selected. Write out the bad cases because they havent filled in the details of harm. Dont do one single measure of mercury just guess. And to compare like with like so no significance can ever be obtained even for the worst case of proof. You simply get non statistically significance guaranteed.

    You can never prove a toxic substance is not toxic without cheating.

    Evidence of harm is denied because it was in a test tube, because it was in an animal or because the people doing it are not nice people. There are lots of studies showing harm of mercury going back three thousand years.

    Work showing non harm goes back exactly to the day they didnt believe any sane person would deliberately add mercury to babies vaccines. Go back to your professor and tell him he is mistaken.

    We would NEVER put mercury in vaccines.

    Sadly these same people now give out millions to anyone who can show no harm from mercury.

    Compare papers since 1999 with periods before this time and you can see the difference. Worse some researchers measuring harm 30 years ago from mercury are in the race to get funds to deny their work and get an extra pension on the back of millions of SIDS and autism etc to others.

    The latest that seeks to show no harm actually proves the devastating effect of 1 microgram of mercury on the pre-natal infant causing increased numbers of autism children and ominously at the level of mercury in the so called mercury free vaccines.

    One person accusing me of being in a time warp for saying mercury is in vaccines may know that nearly every vaccine has mercury in them at the 1 microgram levels with flu vaccines given to the pre-natal child with 25 micrograms of thimerosal an organic and highly toxic compound. We need to get to that time warp of ZERO mercury VERY QUICKLY and at WARP SPEED.

    We do need to realise that most of the time this thimerosal will be absorbed harmlessly and even eliminated from the body. But that which reaches the brain can lead to a plausible explanation for the observed rise in autism that still has not peaked.

    We need to remember proper research shows things that happen.

    Work that proves nothing is worth NOTHING.

    The Polish paper studied thimerosal at levels in vaccines, photographed permant harm in the brain of animals. This is science.

    Verstraeten showing a link to autism and mercury and then reworking the figures and finding mercury improves IQ is finding a nul result and is worth nothing in terms of the issue and for me is clear FRAUD.

  425. October 14, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    @ Fryer
    If you refer to the Majewska rat study, that Polish study is simply awful and completely off target in the exposures that they used; they’re irrelevant. As you claim to have read my blog, you’ll note that I took the study apart: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-anti-vaxers-science-and-sticks-of.html

    Peanut allergies did not exist when you were young? Can you give some evidence to support that? Were you born before vaccines were introduced?

    Also, there are actually eight foods that represent about 90% of established food allergies: cow’s milk, eggs, soy, wheat, peanuts, tree nuts (walnuts, hazelnuts, almonds, cashews, pecans and pistachios), fish and shellfish. Are these in vaccines, too?

    http://www.foodallergy.org/page/peanut-allergy “One study showed that from 1997 to 2002, the incidence of peanut allergy doubled in children. ” Did vaccines double during that time, too?

    And that’s Dr. Fatty Pants to you. My dachshund had a PhD in Badger Hunting.

  426. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Recombivax
    Hepatitis B Vaccine Recombinant
    Merck & Co., Inc.
    produced using thimerosal, aluminum hydroxide
    medium: yeast (residual < 1% yeast protein)

    Comment: Mercury aluminium. Also, since Hep B is sexually transmitted, why do newborns need to be exposed to it any form?

    INFANRIX (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) Package insert:
    Suspension for Intramuscular InjectionEach 0.5-mL dose contains aluminum hydroxide as adjuvant (not more than 0.625 mg aluminum by assay) and 4.5 mg of sodium chloride. Each dose also contains ≤100 mcg of residual formaldehyde and ≤100 mcg of polysorbate 80 (Tween 80).

    Comments: No mercury but again aluminium and formaldehyde PLUS Tween 80 an known mutagenic and possible carcinogen AND proven to render recipients infertile.

    DPT
    Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
    SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
    produced using aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, ammonium sulfate, washed sheep red blood cells, glycerol, sodium chloride, thimerosal
    medium: porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein

    Comments: Oops, a bit of thimerosal here PLUS aluminium and formaldehyde. There goes your mercury free argument.

    IPOL is the Tradename for the polio vaccine manufactured by Connaught Laboratories. The IPOL polio vaccine ingredients include, may not be a complete list), 3 types of polio viruses, neomycin, streptomycin, and
    polymyxin B, formaldehyde, and 2-phenoxyethanol

    Comments: Up pops formaldehyde again plus an awful lot of antifungals known to have high allergic reaction rates.

    Act HIB
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (Hib) Tetanus Toxoid Conjugate
    Connaught Laboratories
    produced using ammonium sulfate, formalin, sucrose, thimerosal

    Comments: Here we go again, mercury and a formalin (related to formaldehyde)

    A message about ALL vaccines: According to IVAC, (Illinois Vaccine Awareness Coalition 708-848-0116) all vaccines contain monosodium glutamate even if not listed in product insert. According to numerous sources, all vaccines contain thimerosal (mercury). Manufacturers have declared that it is not possible to produce any vaccine without these two components.

    To be clear, Monosodium Glutamate is normally used as a flavor enhancer in a variety of foods, however, due to concerns expressed by the American Academy of Pediatrics, MSG was removed from all products intended for use in infants under the age of one. Injections of glutamate into laboratory animals have resulted in damage to nerve cells in the brain.

    I have not mentioned specific vaccines that do NOT list these ingredients, and have just taken a random sampling of vaccines recommended by the Summary of Recommendations for Childhood and Adolescent Immunization by the CDC. Most of these vaccines are recommended to be given 3-4 times before the age of 2, meaning that the amounts given on package inserts must be multiplied by 3 or 4 to ascertain the full amount given.

  427. October 14, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    John Fryer is a great example of perseveration on misinformation without substantiation.

    He provides no links support any of his claims. But I’ll provide a link to debunk at least one: The “Polish Paper” studied super-doses of Thimerosal — basically determining the amount of Thimerosal it would take to cause damage. This reminds me of when I called Poison Control in a panic after my son grabbed and drank four ounces of his allergy medication Claritin — the good people on the other end of the line said that he’d have to drink two gallons before we’d notice any ill effects — an amount that is not realistic in the real world. Like the non-real-world-releveant amounts of Thimerosal the “Polish Paper”‘s newborn rats were exposed to.

    The paper does not prove that the small amount of Thimerosal **which used to be in scheduled childhood vaccines but has since been taken out** was dangerous, not at all. Emily Willingham provides additional details as to the study’s flaws here:

    http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-anti-vaxers-science-and-sticks-of.html

  428. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Just to mention, you AGAIN just summarily dismiss things that don’t suit your argument. To say only people in anti-vaccine circles accept fourteen studies means NOTHING. Only pro-vaccine enthusiasts like yourself give weight to industry funded research. So say I, so say you. And it is not a smoke screen to question the ENTIRE theory of vaccine immunogenic response as it is the main claim for vaccine efficacy. Read “The polio vaccine: a critical assessment of its arcane history, efficacy,
    and long-term health-related consequences” study and find out that infection rates often go up when vaccines are introduced. This is true of polio, measles and smallpox. So the efficacy argument reverts back to immunogenic antibody response which is at best dubious and at worst completely wrong.

  429. October 14, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Assertions vs. Assertions: readers will decide. I’m not actually arguing *with* you, I’m restating facts *for* them. You’ve already decided what you believe.

  430. Chris
    October 14, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    Looks like very outdated information. Since you did not post a reliable source of that list, it cannot be taken as fact. Pediatric vaccines for all of those diseases are available without thimerosal, so you are cherry picking.

    One bit of blatant falsehood: HepB is transmitted by all sorts of human fluid, from blood to saliva. Children can get it from other children.

  431. Michelle
    October 14, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    AND…newborns can get Hep B if exposed to maternal blood of a Hep
    B infected mother. So, since we do not want to stereotype, or generalize or be anything other than politically correct, the CDC recommends Hep B for all newborns to protect baby from potential infection from mother. That is mainly what the birth dose is designed to protect the baby from. Yes, most mothers that have had prenatal care will be tested for Hep B sometime during their pregnancy, however, how do we account for those babies born to mothers that had very little or no prenatal care, babies of IV drug users, or any other activity that would make a baby at high risk for infection with maternal Hep B during delivery? We can’t test mother, and get the results back in a timely enough fashion to make a point of care decision to vaccinate to prevent Hep B infection during delivery. Vaccinate all newborns. Doesn’t make sense, but we live in PC times and are so afraid of offending anyone, we can’t be selective about who we vaccinate, we can’t ask the mother “did you have unprotected sex? Did you use IV drugs?” that could offend her, so we vaccinate.

    Also according to CDC’s Guide to Vaccine Contraindications and Precautions (available online free at http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/downloads/contraindications-guide-508.pdf ), the infant vaccines that contain timerosal (only Pediarix, DT), and that is less than 3 micrograms. I don’t know where you got your information (again no citations, but the ActHIB does not contain Thimerosal (see guide above); there are formulations that do not contain ANY thimerosal, the Pedvax Hib, which also is only a series of 3 instead of 4. Neither does Recombivax (the usual formulation given to the neonate). Engerix-B has less than 3 micrograms.

    You also stated that “According to numerous sources, all vaccines contain thimerosal (mercury). Manufacturers have declared that it is not possible to produce any vaccine without these two components.”

    Again, as repeated numerous times, if you write it, cite it!!!

  432. Sara
    October 14, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Politically correct? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

    Why not AT LEAST follow the same procedure that they do with GBS? If no negative test results exist in the prenatal records, THEN provide that “safety net”. That would, at the very least, reduce the number of babies who are unnecessarily vaccinated at the most vulnerable time in their lives.

  433. October 14, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    The current pertussis epidemic is in part due to parents’ no longer valid but persistently fanned (as this comment thread demonstrates) fears about vaccines and autism. I’ve written an extensive post on the matter, with information on what pertussis is, why it’s so dangerous, and what we can do to protect both infants, and children who cannot be vaccinated:

    http://www.squidalicious.com/2010/10/our-pertussis-epidemic-why-and-what-you.html

  434. Steve Michaels
    October 14, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    According to the CDC ALL children over 6 months should be given the flu vaccine. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/events/niiw/2010/downloads/educ/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs-508.pdf

    From the package insert for Pandemrix: Important information about some of the ingredients of Pandemrix. This vaccine contains thiomersal as a preservative and it is possible that you may experience an allergic reaction.

    http://www.guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/resources/education_research/biomedicalresearch/hird-study/pandemrix-patient-info.pdf

    It pains me to cite things just to be told gratuitously that ‘nobody in our camp believes that study’. What a crock you people are. You claim that you want people to research things, but then ALWAYS tut tut at anything YOU don’t agree with while saying I/we are cherry picking. Well folks, read it and weep because all of your claims ring hollow. Or are you going to question the CDC AND the manufacturer?

    I will say it again, as I said it before, but this time I will be more specific. I do not believe that mercury is the end all toxin in vaccines. I do not believe that removing mercury will significantly change autism rates. I do believe, based on sources previously cited including Department of Health Statistics cited in my previous citations that efficacy is at best questionable. Here is another quote: What is VARIVAX and how does it work?
    VARIVAX is also known as Varicella Virus Vaccine Live. It is a live virus vaccine that is given as a shot. It is meant to help prevent chickenpox. Chickenpox is sometimes called varicella (pronounced VAR ih sella).
    VARIVAX contains a weakened form of chickenpox virus.
    VARIVAX works by helping the immune system protect you or your child from getting chickenpox.
    VARIVAX may not protect everyone who gets it.
    VARIVAX does not treat chickenpox once you or your child have it.
    Source: The manufacturer: http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_ppi.pdf

    I only cite this example but ALL vaccines state in the package insert somewhere that it does not even evoke a response in some people. They never state how many and they NEVER say that getting the vaccine guarantees immunity. Why? Because they don’t and the manufacturers know it.

    But I digress. Back to the point. I believe the entire vaccine theory is flawed. Rates of infection of these diseases tend to be higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated suggesting that vulnerability is INCREASED by receiving vaccines. Rates of infection in three previously cited posts INCREASED after vaccinations were introduced: smallpox, measles and polio. The real question is this: Do VACCINES increase the likelihood of ASD? It is not one ingredient to blame, but the whole vaccine regime. Show me ONE, just one, study that compares ASD rates between non-vaccinated and vaccinated populations. Just one. It’s a challenge to you Michelle and Shannon. The only one I can find is the one I previously mentioned about the Amish. It doesn’t bode well for your claims. At a rate of 1/166 of ASD in the general population at the time the study was conducted, the Amish community observed of over 20,000 should have had, according to the statistics, at least 130 ASD cases. They, in fact, had 3. One was an adopted Chinese girl and two others, all of whom had received vaccines. That is the closest I could find. Prove me wrong or accept the truth. Your arguments ring hollow because your claim can and have been effectively refuted already. Come on now, show me that ONE study that compares non-vaccine compromised ASD rates to either the general population OR a fully vaccinated population. As an added bonus, see if you can find a study of comparison of the same populations for chronic illness, cancer and auto-immune disease.

  435. October 14, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    So it comes back again to the question of risk – my opening statement. Which readers can evaluate for themselves — you’ve certainly given them plenty of material to investigate.

  436. October 14, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    “obviously well enough to write coherently and sensibly here.”

    This is under the assumption that to be autistic means to be sick. Autism is not a disease. I am not sick, therefore, I am not “well enough”.

    Before you go on, you might want to re-educate your self on the difference between a disease, which is contagious, and a disorder, which is not. Because that is the least of your factual flaws.

  437. Chris
    October 14, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    Because kids can infect other kids:

    http://pkids.org/im_kik.php

  438. MisMarMar
    October 14, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    I can’t help but wonder all these children that are not vaccinated will not be able to attend school on day am I correct ? I have a friend who is anti-vaccination and is proud to say her now 2 year old will one day be home schooled. That’s a good thing ?

  439. Michelle
    October 14, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Most states do allow for religious exemptions, and a few allow for “philosophical” exemptions. Some people who are truly anti-vaccine do invoke that right, Virginia, for example, allows for religious exemption, it is on their state school physical form.

    Religious exemption claims are usually taken for face value. For example, I had a patient bring her children in to catch them up on their vaccines, because she lost their shot records and didn’t “want to bother maintaining them”, so she claimed religious exemption, but now that her children are no longer homeschooled, and one is going off to college, she has decided to catch them up. That is not truly religious exemption, that is pure laziness, in my opinion (I am paraphrasing the reasons she gave me, I made no assumptions here).

    When offering vaccines to parents, if they refuse, it is documented in the child’s record. I usually use the term “parent declines” and if they give me a reason, it is also documented. That way, if their child contracts a vaccine preventable disease and has complications (such as chickenpox pneumonia), they can’t come back to me and say “You didn’t tell me…”

  440. Sara
    October 14, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    The risk of kids infecting other kids is extremely low. The risk of a child contracting Hepatitis B at all is extremely low – and it is most likely to be from an infected mother. Fewer than 5% of infants develop symptoms from an acute infection. And 90-95% of those fully recover, usually within 4 weeks. Meaning only 5-10% of those 5% go on to develop chronic liver disease.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/628629

    Meanwhile, there are risks associated with vaccinating every baby. Some even die before they leave the hospital:

    http://iansvoice.org

  441. October 15, 2010 at 12:52 am

    There are risks from vaccines, as we’ve been stating repeatedly and never denying. But they are extremely low, and stories like Ians — tragic as it is — are exceptions.

    The public health risks from not vaccinating our children who can be vaccinated are much higher, and are partially responsible for the current, expanding pertussis epidemic that in California has caused the death of nine infants and caused hundreds more to become critically ill.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/27/AR2010092702342.html

  442. Steve Michaels
    October 15, 2010 at 4:13 am

    I truly hope your readers DO evaluate for themselves that while you claim it is a question of “risk”, I am saying it is a matter of “risk assessment”. You have, through your lack of reference, proven my point. There have absolutely ZERO double-blind placebo studies to study the health outcomes of vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations. This means that ALL vaccines are experimental and all recipients are misinformed and cannot give proper informed consent as required by national and international law. Bottom line: it is an experiment and you and your kids are the guinea pigs. I for one am not willing to put the autism gun to my childs head and pull the trigger and pray that he doesn’t get the 1/100 bullet. Its Russian Roulette. Every study that has attempted to answer the questions I have posed, you have summarily dismissed with a wave of your hand and a ‘nobody considers that a real study’ yet your sources do not study the pertinent question. I shall leave you and your readers to it now that you have exposed the truth about the lack of safety testing and, by omission, also vouch for the lack of efficacy testing. You have ignored,again, the statistical evidence as published by the Department of Health at the time of the introduction of measles and polio vaccines that infection rates ROSE, you have failed to address the British Medical Journal statement that the risk/benefit ratio of the smallpox vaccines did not justify its use. You have also failed to mention the outbreak of measles in Texas that was fully documented in a population that was confirmed 97.5% fully vaccinated, and the recent mumps outbreak in New York and New Jersey where 87% of the infected had received full vaccination. And as a side note on that case, the vaccination rate was reported as 65% which suggests that the vaccination itself rendered people MORE not less likely to contract the disease.

  443. John Fryer Chemist
    October 15, 2010 at 11:18 am

    The vaccine system did work years ago and the eradication of smallpox and the polio campaign shows that determination and perseverance pay off.

    No one gets smallpox and no one in the West much gets polio.

    But today the harm has changed from when I was vaccinated at 5 years of age.

    Today progressively we vaccinate earlier and more often as in our model based on smallpox we can’t go wrong. Or can we?

    We also add thimerosal because we want to kill pathogens in the vaccine that may propagate if we store the vaccine at 37 degrees for a few months and contaminate the vaccine with a bit of staph aureus or the like.

    Someone talked of being in a time warp.

    That is exactly where we are.

    Today we don’t need to keep vaccines in the wrong environment and we don’t need to contaminate a ten shot multi-phial when millions of people need vaccinating.

    Why not use multi shot vials at one go and throw the rest away rather than deliberately add thimerosal.

    The people that got rid of smallpox where extremely good at what they did.

    Today I cringe at the wrong doing seen in vaccine policies. Still thimerosal present and now for the pre-natal child. Virus impurities but keep on jabbing.

    A million SIDS, no clue as to what causes it but dont look at vaccines.

    Tens of millions of autism no idea of a cause but don’t wast money looking at vaccines.

    And so it goes one. Everyone with glasses and to mention vaccines makes you targetted as mad.

    Cancer at catastrophic levels, diabetes rising to most people, infections picked up in hospitals and no vaccine in sight. Dozens of drugs under survey for harm done. Many known to be dangerous used with warnings.

    In the UK they tell you of the absolute necessity of the flu jab, no telling of thimerosal or any harm and then just before the jab a piece of paper just before you go in with no time to read the small print that your eyesight can’t read without a lens anyway.

    Everything is under control or is it everything is being handled.

    Yers most of the time vaccines seem to be ok but then you are injecting into completely healthy people so they darn well should be VERY SAFE.

    But can someone tell me about the million SIDS, ten million autism, where did AIDS come from etc etc.

    I mean when I was young I was 100 per cent confident in medicine.

    Now I am 100 per cent sure I want to keep as much distance from a doctor as possible, and the GMO gang, uranium shells evaporating into our atmosphere making the open air bomb tests look like sand and water play.

    If you think medicine and health is debatable now just wait another 60 years and it may seem as if today there are NO health or vaccine problems.

    But thats my opinion.

    Time for honesty and look at worst case scenarios rather than burying them so a ten headed monster pops up from one.

  444. John Fryer Chemist
    October 15, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Vaccines do cause SIDS.

    UNLESS you have a better cause.

    I dont know of one.

    Why do vaccines cause SIDS

    Well why don’t they?

    Vaccines were given in the UK at three months of age. SIDS peaked at three months.

    Then vaccines were moved to two months and SIDS now peaks at two months.

    There is more evidence like this if needed.

    SIDS is not alway vaccine related. Common sense tells us people have been dying of other things suddenly but the rise from 1969 to a peak which is now at a lower peak is explained easily using vaccine harm as a model. And by using a toxic model all SIDS can be explained.

    Look at mattresses for your infant and you may find they are free of arsenic, antimony and phosphorus. All nasty toxic substances or they can be if you try hard enough to make them nasty.

    Add neuroxic organophosphate chemicals to a babies clothing they wear at night and you have another way to kill your baby back in the late 60′s and most of the 70′s.

    And that is exactly what was made law in the late 1960′s until seven years later some unknown chemists said hi this stuff is SO toxic.

    Did they become famous? Not a bit of it. The finding was checked by the world’s best chemist and the delayed paper came along side the big guns. I can’t remember their names and just hope that they didn’t get the Mc the Knife treatment of should that be bride?

    How many people know of this deliberate addition of toxic matter by law for and only for babies of up to six months? Not many.

    And how many know they added toxic matter into babies mattresses? Not many.

    But you can guess probably that all these « little » matters were like thimerosal today; only of theoretical harm for baby and taken out « just to be safe » to allow for these trouble makers that dont like the deliberate addition of teratogens near little baby. Except back then they were REALLY taken out.

    I think someone here mentioned why don’t they say OOPS when they make a mistake?

    I call it arrogance, ignorance and committee decisions.

    Try to tell of this harm at the time and you get the same replies we get for thimerosal today.

    We’ve been there and got the T shirt before.

    Meanwhilme while we deny vaccines et al causes SIDS we get more and more deaths just coincidentally but unrelated to vaccines. My count is over a million to date.

    Take Harry Clark vaccinated (mercury if you please) at 4.30pm

    Dead at 10.30pm

    Not vaccine harm noted.

    No SIDS noted.

    So how accurate are our figures for SIDS? And how do we relate to vaccines with this disinformation?

    Not very accurate figures. In all cases we need WORST CASE SCENARIOS.

    I mean one highly immune compromised death from measles in the UK in ten years and « bad » doctors are thrown out of the profession by the dozen for suggesting we look at vaccines more closely.

    Can thimerosal vaccines kill? Well no one admits it but the facts like Harry above tells us something is killing and after blaming mom we know today this isn’t sensible.

    So what was to blame? Officially its staph. aureus but then this defence did not help Angela Cannings when her babies died after vaccines. Sounds fishy to me.

    Her one survivor, a girl (remember thimerosal targets boys first) was cared for in hospital after her vaccine and nearly died several times but saved due to intesive care. She lost all the boys. AFTER vaccines of course.

    You see we know EVERY child after vaccines gets these crises which normally are not a problem.

    But imagine that we know of difficulty breath at several times intervals up to three weeks after the vaccine. This takes out the very weak or unlucky at low levels. You won’t find much of this in peer reviewed medically controlled journals as its bad news for vaccine companies, profits etc.

    Then there is the matter of early vaccines, given to protect us early but a double edged sword as most vaccine harm comes in the window from conception to three months of age. Just hold back for three to six months and baby is bomb proof compared to that one day mercury filled hep B shot.

    We also know giving repeat vaccines induces allergies, anaphylaxis as well as boosting the immune system. In fact our model is completely wrong in this way as well. Charles Richet and hundreds of others did their meticulous research a long time ago and it has never been disputed only that ways of overcoming harm are there but not for the masses.

    The success of smallpox vaccines is evident but old and today we are like some drunk insistent everything is fine when clearly to a casual person it isn’t fine.

    Someone mentioned a horrible death from a vaccine preventable illness. Sad and emotional but in the cold light of vaccine science we know if we don’t get the vaccine to eliminate the illness it can hit us back in horrible ways. A highly vaccinated community means people get the illness when their protection wears off. This in turn means infection can come into a house of children still too young to be vaccinated. Before by generations of exposure and mothers immunity we have sure fire protection until the baby is of vaccine age.

    Today by trying to develop too many vaccines too quickly we get unforseen and sometimes events where at first sight it seems vaccines would solve the problem but more work tells us we need to use vaccines like smallpox and eliminate the illness or we will get under age children suffering before thet get their shots.

    The world of vaccines can be cruel and never more so than for the current wave of mothers and carers taking the blame for adverse effects which keeps the blame from where it needs to rest.

    There are no free dinners today and for some vaccine victims never any more dinners.

    The debate is not easy but with vaccine prevenatable illness under control it seems odd to vaccinate a country like UK for 12 years and get one death but in that time get 50 000 unexplained deaths and half a million with lost brains as a possible price to pay if vaccines Are the cause.

    I think of the expression if you are in a hole STOP DIGGING.

    Vaccines do cause SIDS

    UNLESS you have a better cause

    I don’t know of one.

  445. Poogles
    October 15, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    “The medical profession and government are knowingly lying about these things, making them every bit the sadistic killers we are likely to see on death row.”

    Why yes! That’s so reasonable, why didn’t I see it before? Thousands and thousands of professionals all over the world, most of them parents themselves, are just sadistic killers of children! And they’re managing to keep it all a secret from the vast majority of the world, and only the anti-vaxxers know the Truth. /snark

    Do you really not understand how preposterous that is?

  446. October 15, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    The relationship between SIDS and vaccines have been thoroughly investigated. Since John likes cut & paste so much I thought I would reciprocated.

    short version: These results tell us that most SIDS deaths are due to factors like sleeping on their stomachs, cigarette smoke exposure, and mild respiratory infections.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/sids_faq.html

    With babies receiving multiple doses of vaccines during their first year of life and SIDS being the leading cause of death in babies between one month and one year of age, CDC has led research studies to look for possible linkages. Results from studies below and continued monitoring reassure us about the safety of vaccines.

    * The Institute of Medicine (IOM) released a report on Immunization Safety Review: Vaccination and Sudden Unexpected Death in Infancy in 2003. The committee reviewed epidemiologic evidence focusing on SIDS, all sudden unexpected death in infancy, and neonatal death (infant death, whether sudden or not, during the first 4 weeks of life). The committee also looked for possible relationships between SIDS and the individual vaccines diphtheria-tetanus-whole-cell pertussis (DTwP), DTaP, HepB, Hib, and polio; and specific combinations of vaccines. The committee did not find enough evidence to show vaccines cause SIDS.
    * A study using Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) data, which included children who were covered by a managed care organization health plan, found no association between immunization and deaths in young children. The study investigated deaths in children one month to 7 years of age between 1991 and 1995. Data were analyzed by comparing vaccination histories for each vaccine during the week and month prior to the date of death for each child. Five hundred and seventeen deaths occurred between 1991 and 1995, most (59%) during the first year of life. Of these deaths, the results did not show an association between immunizations and childhood deaths.
    * Studies that looked at the age distribution and seasonality of deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). SIDS and VAERS reports following DTP vaccination, and SIDS and VAERS reports following hepatitis B vaccination found no association between SIDS and vaccination.
    * VAERS also monitors the safety of vaccines. Through VAERS the U.S. Food and Drug Administration carefully investigates all deaths following vaccination that are reported to VAERS.

    As a result of the American Academy of Pediatrics’ 1992 recommendation to place healthy babies on their backs to sleep, and the success of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development’s Back to Sleep campaign, fewer SIDS deaths are reported. According to “Targeting SIDS: A Strategic Plan:”
    + Between 1992 and 1998, the proportion of infants placed to sleep on their stomachs declined from about 70 percent to about 17 percent.
    + Between 1992 and 1998, the SIDS rate declined by about 40 percent, from 1.2 per 1,000 live births to 0.72 per 1,000 live births.

    These results tell us that most SIDS deaths are due to factors like sleeping on their stomachs, cigarette smoke exposure, and mild respiratory infections.
    Additional Scientific Articles

    Institute of Medicine. Immunization Safety Review: Vaccinations and Sudden Unexpected Death in InfancyExternal Web Site Icon (March 2003)

    Jonville-Béra AP, Autret-Leca E, Barbeillon F, Paris-Llado J; French Reference Centers for SIDS. Sudden unexpected death in infants under three months of age and vaccination status: a case-control study.External Web Site Icon British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 2001;51(3):271–276.

    Niu MT, Salive ME, Ellenberg SS. Neonatal deaths after hepatitis B vaccine.External Web Site Icon Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine 1999;153:1279–1282.

    Silvers LE, Ellenberg SS, Wise RP, Varricchio FE, Mootrey GT, Salive ME. The epidemiology of fatalities reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System 1990–1997.External Web Site Icon Pharmacoepidemiology and Drug Safety2001;10(4):279–285.

    Silvers LE, Varricchio FE, Ellenberg SS, Krueger CL, Wise RP, Salive ME. Pediatric deaths reported after vaccination: the utility of information obtained from parents. American Journal of Preventive Medicine 2002;22(3):170–176.

    Vennemann MM, Butterfass-Bahloul T, Jorch G, Brinkmann B, Findeisen M, Sauerland C, Bajanowski T, Mitchell EA; GeSID Group. Sudden infant death syndrome: no increased risk after immunisation.External Web Site Icon Vaccine 2007;25(2):336–340.

  447. John Fryer Chemist
    October 15, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Ed Friedlander – opinions on vaccines

    This guy is a pathologist and for all I know the world’s best.

    But when it comes to vaccines he is out on a limb.

    He talks of his disgust for the anti-vaccinators.

    He is in a country where force almost is used and the vaccination rate is the highest in the world. Often topping 90 per cent. They also give more vaccines, more quickly to more infants than anywhere else in the world. And get more adverse health problems than any other country.

    So why the disgust when facts tell us the anti-vaccinators are out on a limb convincing no one of vaccine harm or so it seems by those that get vaccinated?

    Well, for many modern nations USA has fallen from top to bottom in the health stakes.

    Is it that he confounds the bad health of the nation to the loud mouthed anti-vaccinators who at present are still « Blowin In the Wind »?

    A little eccentric thinking here?

    He does admit some good anti-vaccine sites exist. More eccentricity?

    Look at how critical he can be.

    Someone mentions the March edition of a famous scientific journal and says it doesn’t exist! Why, because they got the number wrong for the month. Eccentric or nit-picking especially when many journals do give out many dates. When article received, when checked, when accepted, when put on line and when printed. I sometimes get giddy with all these dates except that top authors get the dates close together whereas bad news can be stratched out for several years before it hits the press.

    He makes a big assumption in thinking these folk are anti-vaccine as do many others.

    He talks of the ingredients and lists them all as normal essential substances.

    I mean thimerosal a normal wanted substance to be injected into people?

    Is he thinking of good trade for himself?

    Well to be honest I didnt see ANY mention of thimerosal anywhere in his long lecture against these people.

    And this sums it up.

    When can we see a critical evaluation of the use past and present of mercury deliberately added to our vaccines?

    All the other 18 pages is a waste of effort on his part as its all standard knowledge.

    Like me he may be in alearning curve which can be seen for example in his reference to Dr Morris.

    Dr Morris evidently was a vaccine supporter who eventually changed his opinion like many others in the field. Sadly some acknowledged freely the harm but couldnt resist carrying on in the vain hope of getting it right one day.

    The classic case of one Merck vaccine expert actually pleased he may be responsible for a lot of ill health in the enemy of his people. Today the joke seems a bit sour.

    Ed Friedlander – opinions on vaccines

  448. October 15, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    I think this is the 10th time I’ve had to write this: John Fryer is spreading misinformation, and has not substantiated a single one of his claims.

  449. October 15, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Poogles, the anti-vaccination folks aren’t fans of logic or evidence, though, ideally, exposure to logic and evidence may eventually have a beneficial effect on them.

    We’re not speaking to or trying to engage antivaxers; we’re speaking to and for the parents who need reliable and evidence-based information.

  450. Steve Michaels
    October 15, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    But not to worry folks. If he did, Shannon would just dismiss his sources out of hand with a ‘nobody believes that source’ or similar remark. She still hasn’t substantiated her own claim that vaccines are safe. She has only cited studies that compare different vaccines against each other. Not one safety or efficacy study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations has been cited because none exist. So this is a bit of pot meet kettle criticizing John Fryer.

  451. Wendy
    October 15, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    as many links as you can provide to say that vaccines don’t cause autism, we can provde the same saying the opposite

    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/notes/autism-canada-foundation/scientists-fear-mmr-link-to-autism-this-is-a-must-read/485832

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/britvaxautism/

    Stop saying anti vaxers are wrong/horrible/stupid/ … whatever … think about this …fancy chemists and whatever – mercury is 40 times more toxic than lead and it crosses the blood brain barrier – why does that mean nothing to you – its only common sense – i’m amazed at the kids that our vaxxes DON’T harm – what are they – superkids?? well, mine isn’t – and that’s only regarding the mercury, what about all the other stuff … aluminum is a known neurotoxin – widely accepted to cause Ahlzeimers – but they still make pots out of it, why?? why is this allowed? Don’t you see its all about the money honey – and then they start multiple vaccines – geez!. Look at these studes and look at who is paying for them? … and how they were done – very famous studies start with 50 kids and end up with 150 kids – that’s no good! but the results are accepted and published as fact – i really wish there was someway to get us all on the same page – we all want the same thing, healthy kids – well some do, providing it can still make them millions – another very famous danish study was done by a guy and his group that fudged all the data and took off with milllions but yet people are still citing his work. People are still badmouthing Dr Wakefield, regardless taht his results have been replicated in numberous other countries. but does any one give him his license back? do you know that most of the people on the board that took his license have stock in the pharma companies? they warned him if he pursued this they would do what they did – threatened his family … – that’s bad science if ever I heard of it. Its all so sad!

  452. October 15, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    This is a fairly awesome comment, coming as it does after multiple assertions that we are talking about risk, not safety. All readers have to do — if they have the stamina — is read up the comment thread to see that Mr. Michaels’ claims are without basis.

    I’ve addressed all your points, citing multiple sources. Your issue seems to be that I’m not conceding to your misinformation.

  453. October 15, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Wendy’s assertions are easily debunked by the comments in the original post.

    I always find it intriguing when Wakefield’s supporters make accusations about big pharma conspiracies, given Wakefield’s own documented conflict of interest regarding his alternative-to-MMR patent development and the potential payout, which was the impetus for his original MMR research:

    http://briandeer.com/mmr/st-wakefield-vaccine.htm

  454. October 15, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    “…comments in the original post”

    meant “…LINKS in the origianl post”

  455. October 15, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    Dear Wendy,

    as many links as you can provide to say that vaccines don’t cause autism, we can provde the same saying the opposite

    It’s not the number of links.
    It is the number of well-performed studies with thousands of subjects that have again and again, failed to find a link between:

    *thimerosal and autism
    *measels-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism

    It’s also the “natural experiment” — thimerosal was removed from almost all vaccines almost a decade ago. The incidence of autism didn’t fall.

    Stop saying anti vaxers are wrong/horrible/stupid/ … whatever …

    You are entitled to your own opinions, but never your own facts. Take the following:

    another very famous danish study was done by a guy and his group that fudged all the data and took off with milllions but yet people are still citing his work.

    That’s your opinion, and it is quite, quite far from the facts..

    The fact is that no one questions the data. Poul Thorsden’s alleged misdoings have to do with allocation of funding. There’s no question about the data.

    http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-health/diseases-disorders-infectious/14099093-1.html

    The CDC and coauthors of the two studies published in major U.S. medical journals maintain the studies remain valid.

    “CDC is aware of the allegations by Aarhus University against Poul Thorsen,” agency spokesman Tom Skinner said in a statement. Federal authorities are investigating.

    Skinner noted that Thorsen was one of many coauthors on peer-reviewed studies looking at autism, cerebral palsy, Down syndrome, and alcohol use in pregnancy.

    “We have no reason to suspect that there are any issues related to the integrity of the science,” Skinner said.

    [snip]

    n 2002, Thorsen was the sixth named author of a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that analyzed whether where is a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism by examining 537,303 children born in Denmark from 1991 through 1998.

    The researchers concluded that their data provided “strong evidence” that there is no link.

    “Poul Thorsen had absolutely no influence on the conclusions regarding this paper,” wrote Mads Melbye, head of the division of epidemiology at the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen and senior author of the study, in response to e-mailed questions.

    “Thorsen was not actively involved in the analysis and interpretation of the results of this paper,” Melbye said.

    The second study, published in Pediatrics in 2003, examined 956 Danish children diagnosed with autism from 1971 to 2000. It concluded the incidence of autism increased in Denmark after thimerosal was removed from vaccines.

    Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, the lead author, said Thorsen played a minor role.

    “Dr. Thorsen was not in a position to change or compromise the data,” Madsen wrote. “Dr. Thorsen was part of the review cycle, but never very active in giving input. Dr. Thorsen never had access to the raw data nor the analysis of the data.”

    You go on to say:

    People are still badmouthing Dr Wakefield, regardless taht his results have been replicated in numberous other countries.

    Please provide citations to where “his results” have been replicated. Because they haven’t.

    but does any one give him his license back?

    You do know why he lost his licence?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7134893.ece

    Announcing the final verdicts, Surendra Kumar, chair of the GMC’s fitness to practise panel, said that Dr Wakefield had been “irresponsible”, “misleading” and “dishonest”, in the way in which he carried out and presented the study, which involved carrying out unnecessary and invasive tests on children without official permission.

    “The panel is profoundly concerned that Dr Wakefield repeatedly breached fundamental principles of reseach medicine,” Dr Kumar told the hearing in central London. “It concluded that his actions in this area alone were sufficient to amount to serious professional misconduct.”

    Dr Wakefield, 53, also “showed a callous disregard” for the suffering of children by taking blood samples from them at his son’s birthday party, and failed to declare a conflict of interest — that he had received £50,000 to carry out research on behalf of parents who suspected that MMR could lead to autism.

    Facts, Wendy, not opinion.

  456. Steve Michaels
    October 15, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Geez Shannon,

    All I asked was for you to show me just one just ONE double-blind placebo study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations. You haven’t and you can’t because they haven’t been done. This is not strictly about thimerasol but about overall vaccine safety. It has NEVER been studied. I can only assume that you keep bringing up red herrings because you are at a loss to comment effectively.

  457. October 15, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    Sullivan is painstakingly reading

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/10/andrew-wakefields-vaccine-patent/

    I’m reading through the transcripts from the General Medical Council Hearing on Andrew Wakefield and his colleagues at the Royal Free Hospital. It is long. Very long. Each day runs tens of pages (day 31 is 79 pages alone). Even beyond the bulk of the proceeding I find it difficult reading. I find it very difficult to read about the ethical lapses committed in the name of care of disabled children. Because of that, I quickly moved to a topic I have already written about and one that is less painful to discuss: the patent application Mr. Wakefield submitted on his “transfer factor”.

    Defenders of Mr. Wakefield, and those interested in Mr. Wakefield’s financial motivations, should read the post.

  458. October 15, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    The study you’re asking for would be unethical. Liz addressed that topic already, I already cited her comment in a previous comment — but here it is again:

    http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/#comment-594

    It appears that, at this point, your only goal is to end-cap the comments with a misinformation salvo.

  459. October 15, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    I provided a lengthy list of placebo-controlled vaccine trials somewhere up there. They do exist.

  460. October 15, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Peltola H, Heinonen OP. Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins. Lancet 1986;1:939-42.

    Govaert TM, Thijs CT, Masurel N, et al. The efficacy of influenza vaccination in elderly individuals. A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. JAMA 1994;272:1661–5.

    Vesikari T, Karvonen A, Korhonen T, et al. A randomized, double-blind study of the safety, transmissibility and phenotypic and genotypic stability of cold-adapted influenza virus vaccine. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2006;25:590–5.

    From the 1st Salk polio work: “The year 1952 was the worst polio year on record, with more than 57,000 cases nationwide. The public was in a panic and was clamoring for a vaccine. A year later, Salk announced the development of a trial vaccine for polio. The National Foundation, encouraged by Salk’s preliminary results and feeling pressure from the nation’s parents, accelerated plans for what would be the largest controlled trial in the history of medicine. The Foundation’s Vaccine Advisory Committee and the National Institutes of Health recommended that the field trial be carried out, and the U.S. Public Health Service gave its official approval. Over one million children were vaccinated in national field trials in 1954. They were known as the “Polio Pioneers.” This was one of the first large double-blind, placebo-controlled tests that have since become the standard: half of those inoculated received the vaccine, and half received a placebo. Neither the recipient of the shot nor the researchers knew which one they got until the clinical trial was over. In 1955 the vaccine was determined to be safe for the population at large.”

    Etc.

    Of course, now that the safety and efficacy are established, as I noted above, no human subjects research committee could approve a study–especially a double-blind study–that involves administering a placebo “vaccine.” It would be extraordinarily unethical. Of interest from the Declaration of Helsinki (international ethics rules):

    “Medical research involving human subjects must conform to generally accepted scientific principles, be based on a thorough knowledge of the scientific literature, other relevant sources of information, and on adequate laboratory and, where appropriate, animal experimentation.” In other words, there needs to be a compelling reason–a building body of evidence–to justify it.

    “Physicians should abstain from engaging in research projects involving human subjects unless they are confident that the risks involved have been adequately assessed and can be satisfactorily managed.” Administering a placebo as vaccine opens the door to all manner of unmanageable risks.

    “Medical research involving human subjects should only be conducted if the importance of the objective outweighs the inherent risks and burdens to the subject. This is especially important when the human subjects are healthy volunteers.” Again, this traces back to some level of evidence and necessity warranting the study. The “autism-vaccines” hypothesis is a total failure in this regard.

    There is not an ethics committee that would–or should–give a pass to a research proposal involving human subjects and a medical intervention associated with the autism-vaccines hypothesis.

  461. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Steven, I have been out all day. Did I miss where you explained out the un-vaxed arm of that proposed study would be protected from harm if they got pertussis, measles, Hib, etc? Because of the length of that proposed study and the number of children to be involved, plus the recent resurgence of those diseases in the USA, there is a high chance someone is going to get hurt.

  462. October 15, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Dear Steve,

    Just so you know,

    I have a comment in moderation that addresses the issue of “double-blind placebo study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations.”

    When it shows up, I hope you will let me know what questions you still have as to why such a study has not been done. While you are waiting, you might want to think about why such a study should be done.

  463. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    Clifford Miller and John Stone, who run the childhealthsafety page, are not exactly fonts of truth. That page is a tribute to cherry picking. Actually, Japan is used as an example of the removal of MMR not having much of an effect:
    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
    Uchiyama T et al.
    J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
    *Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder
    (Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

    Their work has not gone unnoticed:

    http://jabsloonies.blogspot.com/2009/03/lies-misrepresentation-and-abuse.html

    . People are still badmouthing Dr Wakefield, regardless taht his results have been replicated in numberous other countries.

    Umm… not really. They are mostly case reports of adults, with absolutely no mention of any kind of measles vaccine. And the following study did not replicate his findings:
    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.
    Hornig M et al.
    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    *Subjects: 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)

  464. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    Other Japan study:
    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
    Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
    J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

    And here is a website where you can see the “replications” of Wakefield discussed: http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2010/02/independent-wakefield-way-really.html

  465. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    The “replications” are also discussed here:

    http://www.badscience.net/2006/06/mmr-is-back/

  466. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    A year before that large field experiment in 1954, Salk tested his vaccine at the Watson Institute. a school for children with bone diseases, including tuberculosis of the bone. The first test subjects were there because of polio.

    Plus there were the Koprowski studies at the Letchworth Village for Feeble Minded and Epileptic, and the Krugman studies at Willowbrook School. The latter being the school that was showcased in the 1970s for the deplorable living conditions that the disabled children lived in (described as a “snake pit”), plus the medical experiments.

    Anyone care to guess how children mostly ended up at both of those institutions?

  467. Chris
    October 15, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    That has got to be the most idiotic reasoning I have ever seen as “proof” that vaccines cause SIDS.

  468. October 15, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    Chris, I understand your frustration and appreciate your tireless work here — and would also be grateful if you could keep the discussion civil.

  469. October 15, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    Vaccines do cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why do vaccines cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Let’s put that another way. What else are babies under 12 months routinely exposed to:

    Breastfeedings do cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why do breastfeedings cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Formula feedings do cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why do formula feedings cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Using Brand X infant vitamins F do cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why does using Brand X infant vitamins cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Letting your baby go to sleep does cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why does letting your baby go to sleep cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Diapering with disposable diapers do cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why do diapering with disposable diapers cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    Using Brand X diaper cream does cause SIDS. UNLESS you have a better cause. I dont know of one. Why does using Brand X diaper cream cause SIDS Well why don’t they?

    What I am trying to point out here is that JFC is making a baseless and silly –but harmful– argument.

  470. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 12:54 am

    My apologies. But saying that we don’t know what causes SIDS means it is caused by vaccines makes no sense.

    Though, in fact we do know what causes some cases of SIDS. It involves too many bed linens and pillows, and the effect of living in household where tobacco is smoked. Plus the “Back to Sleep” campaign has reduced SIDS.

    I also provided at least one study that showed vaccines reduce SIDS.

    So, yes, I was frustrated.

  471. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 1:00 am

    Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
    Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.
    Vennemann MM, Höffgen M, Bajanowski T, Hense HW, Mitchell EA.
    Institute of Legal Medicine, University of Münster, Roentgenstrasse 23, 48129 Münster, Germany. Mechtild.Vennemann@ukmuenster.de

    CONCLUSIONS: Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

  472. October 16, 2010 at 1:15 am

    Steve wrote:

    As an additional side note, it would be much more surprising for Wakefield to have NOT been sticken off by the GMC. He has questioned the very foundation of the modern medical ethos by finding fault with the concept that we are all customers of the industry whether we are ill or not.

    : your conception of Wakefield’s motives is…well, fatally flawed. You are entitled to your opinion of Wakefield’s motives, but not your own facts.

    No, Wakefield did not question the “foundation of the modern medical ethos” at all. He was seeking to enrich himself by (a) casting doubt on a particular vaccine (MMR) and (b) by that doubt, create a market for an alternative, for which he was attempting to patent

    Sources:

    http://briandeer.com/wakefield/wakefield-patents.htm

    Mr. Deer’s site has accurate facsimile copies of the relevant documtnes.

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/10/andrew-wakefields-vaccine-patent/

    The transcripts discussed at leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk are not publicly available yet, but have been provided to select outlets such as leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk.

    Readers may

  473. Steve Michaels
    October 16, 2010 at 4:10 am

    You claim that it is unehtical to inject these toxins into children without the’redeeming’ benefit of adding antigens and pathogens. Does adding disease to toxins suddenly trump the toxicity factor? In what way would it be unethical to study (a) disease incidence and (b) medium and long term side effects or adverse reactions between populations that have and have not been vaccinated? Every state allows exemptions, but they must be applied for. Simply make follow up reporting of disease incidence and medium and long term side effects a requirement of exemption. Simple. The states know who has not been vaccinated by legal exemption. Ask for a data protection exemption to contact those children and check for ASD among that population and then compare it to the vaccinated population at large. There is no ethical block to this study. You are just throwing up red herrings to make people who are dubious of the motivation of corporate interests look dumb. I suspect the REAL reason you keep claiming the ‘unethical’ argument is that the rates among non-vaccinated populations is because the only readily available data for that type of study shows an ASD rate of 1/7000 compared to the general population of 1/100. Your ‘ethics’ are based on fear of being proven wrong. I have formed my opinions based on my research. I was a ‘pro-vaccine’ person until 2 years ago. Then I read John Vilipen, Lorraine Day, and studies of veterinary diseases in vaccinated animals and the change in protocol at all US veterinary schools to vaccinate cats and dogs on extremities to facilitate the removal of future cancers at the point of vaccination and I began to doubt that the information we are provided to make our ‘informed’ choice.

    Source for Veterinary info: Science of Vaccine Damage
    by Catherine O’Driscoll

    Her Bio: Catherine O’Driscoll runs Canine Health Concern which campaigns and also delivers an educational
    program, the Foundation in Canine Healthcare. She is author of Shock to the System (2005; see review this
    issue), the best-selling book What Vets Don’t Tell You About Vaccines (1997, 1998), and Who Killed the
    Darling Buds of May? (1997; reviewed in NEXUS 4/04).
    She lives in Scotland with her partner, Rob Ellis, and three Golden Retrievers, named Edward, Daniel and
    Gwinnie, and she lectures on canine health around the world.

    Why do I trust the insights of VD’s over MD’s as a starting point of research? Because the pharmacuetical industry has not yet tried to systematically exploit that ‘market segment’ yet. They will as more people get pet insurance, but for now, VD’s are not wined and dined to elicit loyalty to drug companies the way that MD’s, researchers and jounrnal editors are.

  474. Steve Michaels
    October 16, 2010 at 4:48 am

    By the way, the great mumps outbreak of 2010 was reported by CNN and definitively stated that 77% of the population was vaccinated and 87% of the infected were vaccinated. Where did they get this information? I submit to you that the information I am requesting IS available and would be touted everywhere IF it supported the case for vaccines. Instead we are led to believe by incomplete and misleading statements that vaccination equals immunity. The recent mumps outbreak proves that it does not. So how about the measles outbreak in Texas a few years back? No figures for infection rates were ever reported but it was widely reported that the vaccination rate was over 97%. If most of the victims were not vaccinated, that would have been plastered everywhere, but it was not. It does not prove, but certainly implies, that the media coverage in these instances is cherry-picked to continue to give the impression that vaccines are effective when they are not. Only at the end of the article the CDC openly admits that the mumps vaccine is only 76-95% effective. Meaning up to 1 in 4 are receiving all of those detergents, anti-fungals, antibiotics, preservatives and heavy metals with no possible positive health impact. If 1 in 4 cars had brake failure they would be pulled off the road, why not the same standard for our bodies?

  475. John Fryer Chemist
    October 16, 2010 at 5:12 am

    Rebuke for fatty pants alias Emily

    Sorry Emily but this is war.

    The review you gave of the article on thimerosal and its action on the brain is not correct in the slightest.

    You slate the article, the science and the authors referred to.

    In short there is nothing good in your critique and everything is bad, distorted and biased.

    You talk of anti-vaxers being in a « coven » and not in science at all. You actually get the comparison inverted.

    In fact you admit that you youself got the maths wrong. Well it happens to everyone. But you need to rethink when you do commit an error. To say a thousand fold error changes nothing doesn’t seem like science more like dogma to me.

    This does not change your criticism in the least it remains the same you say as if thousand fold errors are not errors.

    So from your slip it is like saying that house priced at one hundred million dollars is too much when in fact the REAL price for a luxury house and several acres looking out over the pacific ocean is at the ACTUAL price of 100 thousand dollars. A big difference. Most house owners can afford the lower price while relatively no one much the upper price.

    People do make such errors and even an error of ten in the vaccine industry is the difference between life and death.

    Take this incident in 1919 when the first diphtheria vaccine killed people. In October and November 1919 hundreds of people were safely vaccinated. Then vaccines with between 10 to 100 times the amount was given and hundreds became ill with many deaths.

    Your error is at least if not worse than this but does not actually cost lives or illness but is really just a theoretical error unlike the « theoretical » errors of the vaccine industry, regulatory authorities and government over the past thirty years. It is difficult to imagine how this difference of yours changes nothing, unless you are fixated that thimerosal is actually a brain improver as Verstraeten claimed when he too doctored his data in a likewise manner to get rid of the mercury-autism connection that wouldn’t go away. We are fairly clear his error was not an error but a deliberate move to cover up found harm from thimerosal vaccines. In fact to be fair it wasn’t only him but the whole CDC team working on the issue.

    Moving on from the huge mathematical error you mention that work by Professor Haley, mothers and families that worked on mercury-autism connection for several years as an amateur group and Dr Geier who was working with the CDC decades ago as respected vaccine expert and others that see danger in injecting thimerosal into infants are somehow not worthy of their work.

    You seem to be saying that injecting mercury compounds into one day babies is perfectly safe? I don’t want to put words in your mouth but this whole research paper and that of the above are designed to inform the public of real and present danger from many mercury vaccines still in production. The myth of the total removal has been clearly revealed as we do all accept full amounts of mercury still in flu vaccines. We all accept that this vaccine is now given to the infant less than one day as it can be injected into pregnant mothers also by CDC recommendation to protect them from harm even. As a chemist I take this as attempted murder by those concerned.

    What is not generally appreciated and is kept reasonably hidden from the public is that there are to my best information double production lines producing full mercury vaccines for world consumption and mercury removal lines to get the mercury out of vaccines destined for the home market. Even assuming all is well with a toxic vaccine it does smack of a double society where your people get the theoretically safest while others get the other lot as its benefits still outweigh any theoretical harm.

    Then we get the idea that methylmercury compounds are so much more toxic than ethylmercury which is so different. The difference is minimal and a factor of 2 is enough to differentiate harm and not 1 000 as in your maths slip.

    You claim the above authors claim that thimerosal is a neurotoxin. I think you may find the whole world accepts this as a truth and so the references could be to any reputable scientist but the authors chose those that are at the forefront of change to eliminate mercury from vaccines.

    This has been achieved in many countries and we see there autism rates ten fold less than in the USA for example.

    The whole issue of which mercury vaccines have or have not got mercury is unclear and an audit afresh for the vaccine companies of their holding stock and throughput of mercury is long overdue.

    Moving to the research which cost many thousands of dollars. This work is important and it is sad that such work has to be paid to be published. It is glib to say the mainstream would not touch it but looking at the 12 year witch hunt for Dr Andrew Wakefield and others in other areas such as Dr William McBride we have reason to know that selection is made according to the message.

    The 2010 Pediatrics article purporting that mercury is protective of autism is shown to be wrong when the detail reveals 3 micrograms of mercury per kilgram can cause a more than ten per cent increase in autism cases at birth. Hardly in keeping with the message that mercury is good for us.

    The amounts are indeed comparable to that which occur. The low level is less than that received by all infants in the 1990′s that followed USA vaccine practice. The very highest levels reflect less than found in a 2010 flu vaccine with deliberately added thimerosal.

    I am not sure why you think the quantities are high or not applicable?

    Further to be honest the research does not advance our thinking on thimerosal toxicity by any amount. It just agrees with what we can predict if we avoid silly logic and say well the research has all been on methylmercury and this is not harmful at all in this amount.

    It clearly is harmful and this is painful to take in if you think mercury vaccines are fine.

    Let us look at what it tells those that want to know:

    1 Thimerosal has a damaging action on parts of our brain.

    2 Thimerosal is behaving in a catalytic manner.

    3 Large amounts of thimerosal induce a defence mechanism by our bodies, so the harm actually decreases as thimerosal exposure increases.

    4 For an adult the thimerosal harm is negligible but for a baby is catastrophic. The large amounts you say are not typical of mercury vaccines do not harm an adult as much as the least amounts harm the baby.

    The message is very clear.

    Harm to the baby occurs at very low levels while harm to an adult is of relatively little consequence.

    Of course if we accept harm for babies from mercury we can look anew at why 70 per cent get Alzheimer memory loss after 5 or more vaccines with mercury while in retirement.

    Molecule for molecule thimrosal is more damaging to baby as it is allowed to parts where in larger amounts it would be shut out.

    For those saying the mercury is excreted easily they may want to explain findings of 120 000 parts per million in heart tissue for sudden death people which are at the levels you arrived at with your maths error.

    When that little bit of mercury gets into the brain the destructive action continues and is not dependent on whether it is present in large or small amounts.

    The time for harm is delayed often simply because it takes time for the destructive action to be noticed. A little bit of toxin can never normally be expected to act immediately.

    And yet 4 hours after a vaccine and the government denies vaccine harm.

    We can add that further insult such as the MMR vaccine may act as a trigger. Everybody already admits genetic weakness can aggravate mercury vaccines and/or MMR to induce autism. A slowly damaging action can be like pushing lemmings over a cliff by sudden insults like this.

    The wall of authority against the notion of mercury inducing autism is extremely fragile and hopefully one day the authorities will be big enough, honest enough and decent enough to accept their blame for the million alone in USA with this syndrome. Already some states have illegality clauses trying to outlaw mercury vaccines. Difficult against government and multi-national ambitions to limit and even continue their harm.

    Worse is that while they knew in 1999 they actually started a policy of exporting mercury vaccines to new markets around the world incuding in 2010 France where mercury vaccines are very few and today at least but sadly not in the past no vaccines are normally given before 3 months.

    Can we expect any big pharma based industry to actively participate in the winding down of its industry?

    Russia abandoned or accepted that mercury vaccines were unneccessary 40 years ago especially as in each case there was a non-toxic alternative. Today they have moved on to new areas for treating
    and protecting from infectious illness.

    Time for us also to listen and learn from the old masters?

    I think not.

    Finally my stand is that if I can honestly see that mercury vaccines are safe and needed then I fo one would advocate for them.

    To date the only evidence I see is not of theroetical harm but actual harm and deaths denied.

    The UK action has foundered and if the USA action founders it bodes bad for the world.

    15 years ago I fo one was a fervent and misinformed advocate for mercury vaccines in a controlled world where almost noone knew mercury vaccines existed.

    Today those that kept this from us stil insist everything is OK when only ten years ago they wanted it out as soon as possible.

    A prominent supporter of vaccines and the one who introduced us to the one day vaccine himself was at the forefront for honesty ans contrition but was all but sanctioned. Today he toes the line with all those that admit that mercury vaccines are safe and damage to babies from small amounts of mercury vaccines is theoretical even when we see from this paper it is REAL, FACTUAL and unprintable evidence in an industry controlled journal.

    The smallest quantity of thimerosal in vaccines damages permanently the brains of babies while even the large amounts in vaccines travelling in our adult bodies as a bolus will not harm us to the same degree.

    Frightening research indeed and time to listen to science and forget handling, mathematical errors and dogma that mercury vaccines alone can save the world from clinical harm.

    Mercury vaccines may turn out to have caused the biggest harm to our children ever and still in 2010 we refuse to look dispationately at evidence of harm.

  476. John Fryer Chemist
    October 16, 2010 at 5:24 am

    Dr E J WILLINGHAM and your DOG with a Ph D in badger hunting

    You mention that peanut allergy doubled in short time. Then you say can that be vaccines.

    I have to say I don’t know.

    But I can say I didn’t blame vaccines until I discovered it was used in vaccines. Can you suggest a better explanation? It fits known science EXACTLY.

    Then its simple deduction. I know for a fact that peanut allergy was unknown to me 50 years ago but is very well known to me in 2010.

    The article you reference mentions ANAPHYLAXIS.

    This was a word invented by Charles Richet more than 100 years ago and from his work on VACCINES.

    Further you talk of other allergies and demand if they are in vaccines – well eggs is used to make the flu vaccine.

    Cow’s milk we know was a product using GMO altered enzymes now strictly forbidden in most of Europe – thank goodness.

    And SOY – this is todays nightmare for the French. Millions of tons of the stuff comes into our ports and my calcualtion is we eat a kilogram of the stuff every week. GMO altered using BT technology. A long time AFTER we discover its action. Destroys insects by destroying their guts. Ring any bells with autism?

    As to the others time prevents me looking but I have tackled the first three on your list.

    Dr E J WILLINGHAM and your DOG with a Ph D in badger hunting

  477. October 16, 2010 at 11:10 am

    The main problem with that study, and one that was noted by other scientists who discussed it, was that the exposure concentrations and timing of the thimerosal exposure were not environmentally relevant; the exposures far exceeded anything a child would receive, even accumulated over many, many months. Their highest dose of mercury is indeed analogous in size to a pat of butter, but even their lowest dose is irrelevantly large. I’ve done tox studies, and this is not how they’re done if the goal is to model real-world exposures. That’s an insane amount of mercury.

    Thus, the study is not a relevant model of exposure…not to mention the almost complete absence of thimerosal now. As for my error, I did note it and it was simply a slip between ppm and ppb, as I’m sure any toxicologist will tell you is an easy slip to make when you’re converting late at night in a state of total fatigue. Regardless, I corrected the error, did I not? That is what scientists do. They discover their errors, and they correct them.

    The Polish study is also suspect because of its self citation and its citations of support for its hypothesis from publications that are not research publications. They also include highly suspect journal citations in this paper. I noted all this in the writeup: http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-anti-vaxers-science-and-sticks-of.html

    I invite anyone reading this thread and Fryer Analytical Chemist’s comments to read the original post.

    You seem to be cross-pollinating MMR and thimerosal again, something that I see done repeatedly even though MMR does not contain thimerosal.

  478. October 16, 2010 at 11:13 am

    The question about the peanut allergy doubling is relevant in that before anyone can assume causation of any kind, it’s good to see some sort of correlation. Vaccines have been around for decades, yet peanut allergies double in the first few years of the 21st century. That doesn’t indicate vaccines as a causative agent, as there isn’t even a temporal correlation between their use and this sudden rise in peanut allergy. So, it doesn’t fit known science even inexactly.

    Studies of autism and gut-related issues have not found any increase in gut problems among autistic children with the exception of anxiety-induced constipation. So introducing gut into this…doesn’t mean anything.

    My dog is dead, so you can stop addressing her, unless you are appealing in some way to her spirit.

  479. October 16, 2010 at 11:18 am

    jeez.. this debate again. can’t everyone just allow individuals with children on the Spectrum to believe what they want due to their OWN experience? Autism is not a Cult. Whether you do the GFCF, Vaccinate/don’t Vaccinate, seek alternative therapies, etc. it’s up to the parent. I have my beliefs due to MY son’s experience. I believe that the uprise in Autism plainly shows are Triggers. Yes, Vaccinations, can be a trigger, Environment can be a Trigger, etc. But who are we to say another parent should or should not Vaccinate. Who are we to say “Your wrong, I’m Right” then bring up B.S. statistics from Pimps and Dealers like the CDC, FDA, etc.

    The infighting in the Autism Community has to stop. The respect needs to begin. How the heck can anyone raise Autism Awareness when we are all battling. Yes J-Mac and Autism Speaks drives me absolutely nutty. But we are dealing with an epidemic. We have to look at these people and turn a negative into a positive. For example. I go to the Autism Speaks walks. Why? To network, to research, and to meet people within my community going through the same things. Do I go for Autism Speaks.. NO, do I raise money for them, now that I’ve done my research… NO.

    I just think its not good to judge each other.. ecspecially using Government quotes and facts.. are you kidding me? Really??? The Government who is doing absolutely nothing for our children.. the state whom is cutting fundings and services.

    If you want to do something to raise Awareness go into your community and be productive. Start an Autism Mom’s group, start something… just stop freakin’ talking and do it!

    Jane
    Community Volunteer
    Autism in Long Beach (facebook page)

  480. Madfoot
    October 16, 2010 at 11:36 am

    That’s Dr. Daisy Mae Fatty Pants to you!

  481. October 16, 2010 at 11:37 am

    Jane, thanks for stopping by. I have issued several requests for civil discussion, which have been most consistently ignored by the folks promoting autism/vaccine links. Those links have been debunked, but the message is not getting out clearly enough — leading many parents to still believe such theories have merit. They don’t, and I encourage parents to methodically investigate their own children’s medical histories to that end — just as I would recommend you research your “trigger” beliefs.

    I hope the information I’ve provided will help more parents make informed decisions.

    I’ve also commented several times regarding how lovely it would be if people directed their energies towards positive advocacy, as well.

    Be well,

    -Shannon

  482. October 16, 2010 at 11:46 am

    My goal here is not to judge people on this thread; I save other venues for that–I’m as fallible as the next person and naturally critical, and yes, judgment will occasionally out. And of course I use government quotes and facts because the government has the wherewithal to accumulate the appropriate databases to determine those facts, and yes, I use science to support what I’m saying.

    This isn’t about belief. It’s about what scientific findings are. And to try to get those across requires discourse and dissemination of information. My goal here is to counter misinformation with as much fact and science as possible. I do not perceive the government as doing nothing for our children, but if that is the case from your perspective, then one initial step to convincing authorities that investment in autistic people is worthwhile would be to stop representing them as irretrievably damaged, vaccine-harmed troglodytes without a hope for the future.

    Many of us posting here are quite active in our support for autism-based causes. Shannon alone has done a huge service for autism families through her dissemination of information about using iPad apps for children, which has gone viral and made it into the WSJ, and she is quite active in her local autism community and as a nationally read special needs writer. I have served on committees in my community to forward the cause of special needs children and am currently working with a group enmeshed in ensuring that special education monies do indeed find their way to special education. Further, I am building an anti-bullying initiative that will, by necessity, involve helping autistic people and autism families given that, as you know, a huge majority of the bullied are in the special needs population. http://endthebullying.wordpress.com/. Liz Ditz is tireless in her efforts focused on several difference-related areas and also in promoting fact and science over emotion and anecdote in decision making.

    Many of us here are deeply concerned that misinformation about vaccines will lead parents to not vaccinate their children for the wrong reasons, which will snowball into a resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases that kill children. I don’t intend to tell other parents what to do or what to think, but I do intend to present information that is as factual and useful as possible so that parents who are in querying mode can take it into consideration in making their decisions. It’s a fight that I think is worth fighting as long as the misinformation chain continues unbroken. This comment thread alone represents exactly why the fight needs to continue. I have no intention of backing off of presenting solid information and facts to counter misinformation as long as children’s lives are at stake.

    Regarding limiting our understanding of autism to our own experiences: If I based my attitudes solely on my son’s experience, I would dismiss out of hand the involvement of any triggers, as he seems to have been autistic from birth. I would dismiss out of hand the efficacy of any interventions except those that we can anecdotally report to have had some positive effect for him. I would dismiss out of hand that autistic children must live with SIBs or without verbal communication or with frequent meltdowns, because he no longer does any of these. But I do not dismiss these things out of hand because everyone’s experience with autism differs, and that’s a truth I believe in.

    Yes, parents have the decision making in their hands. But the goal for rational people ought to be that those decisions are based as much as possible on a scientific groundwork. It’s one reason we offer the Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism as a place where parents can come for fact-checked information, offered rationally and with compassion and sympathy and an understanding that everyone will still be different in ways big and small in what they choose to do. It’s also one more way that we’re not only “freakin’ talking” but we also are walking the walk–and we will continue to do so.

    http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.com/

  483. October 16, 2010 at 11:53 am

    Thanks. She was a pretty awesome little dachshund.

  484. October 16, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    On the ethics of a vaccinated / unvaccinated study (the comment that’s hung up in moderation for >12 hours, how annoying — reformatted:

    Dear Steve Michaels,

    show me just one just ONE double-blind placebo study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations. You haven’t and you can’t because they haven’t been done.

    I assume you are alluding to a prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blinded study (often abbreviated RCT).

    I also assume that you would like the study to address not only comparative rates of autism, but other cognitive and health issues such as ADHD, specific learning disabilities such as dyslexia, asthma, specific gastrointestinal disorders, other autoimmune issues such as type 1 diabetes, and some sort of general index of health.

    Let me see if I can explain as clearly as I can why a prospective study cannot be done, and why there would be real problems with getting enough subjects for a retrospective study.

    For the sake of argument, let’s limit this discussion to vaccines given prior to school entry, about age five. So we are talking about recruiting families into the study while the mother is still pregnant, to get around the HepB at birth issue. We are also talking about following the children for an extended period of time — perhaps birth to age 7 or older.

    The study would have to recruit a robust number of families paired for geographic location, for parents’ socioeconomic status, parents’ health status, preexisting conditions in older siblings (if any), and any other number of possibly confounding conditions. You would also have to find enough families who would be willing to accept the randomization factor — to accept that their child may receive all of the vaccines, or none of the vaccines.

    First of all, the numbers. As Prometheus has demonstrated [photon in the darkness let's put on a study]

    You would need over 360,000 children in each group — the vaccinated and placebo-only — to detect a 10% difference in autism. That means you would need a prospective study cohort of about 720,000 children.

    This isn’t my opinion or Prometheus’s opinion, it’s the laws of statistics.

    The ethical issues of such as study have been discussed again and again, even in this thread. Let me repeat it as clearly as I can.

    Essentially, children randomly assigned to the unvaccinated arm of the study would have a much higher risk of acquiring vaccine-preventable diseases and infections (Hepatitis B, rotavirus, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, Haemophilius influenzae type b, pneumococcal disease, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, and meningococcal disease) than children randomly assigned to the vaccinated arm of the study.

    Please note: I am not arguing that it is unethical for parents to make the no-vaccine decision for their children. One assumes that parents do so based on their beliefs, and have what they believe the best interests of their children as a motivator.

    It would, however, be extremely unethical for researchers to expose other people’s children to known risks of harm, by random assignment to the unvaccinated wing of the study.

    The Declaration of Helsinki forbids it [Declaration of Helsinki]

    The US Common Rule forbids it [DHHS Common Rule]

    Again, this isn’t my opinion at all. The Common Rule is US government regulation. And it isn’t aimed at vaccine studies at all, or even just medical studies — the Common Rule covers all Human Subject research.

    One could ethically do a retrospective study, comparing outcomes after the fact for unvaccinated vs. vaccinated children. But even then, you run into the numbers problem, as Prometheus points out

    In 2004, Smith et al published “Children who have received no vaccines: Who are they and where do they live?”. This was an extensive study of vaccination practices in the US, carried out from 1995 to 2001 on over 23,000 children selected at random to be representative of the larger population. Their results were interesting and bear directly on the desire to “put on a study” looking at the connection (or lack thereof) between vaccines and autism.

    What they found was that 62.8% of their study population was “fully vaccinated” (i.e. had received all the vaccines on the then-current vaccination schedule – 15 total in 2001). An additional 36.9% were “undervaccinated” – although 58.5% of them (20.4% of the total sample) were missing only one vaccine. Only 0.3% of the sample – 111 children ages 19 – 35 months over five years – had not received any vaccination.

    [Children Who Have Received No Vaccines: Who Are They and Where Do They Live? Philip J. Smith]

    Now, some things may have changed since the beginning of the study in 1995. What we do know in California is that only 2% of kindergarteners have Personal Belief Exemptions (PBEs) . One school district nurse, Laurel Yrun, observed that

    most of the parents who are signing exemptions in her district are doing so because they have opted not to give their children a particular vaccine. Only a minority of parents are opting out of vaccines altogether, she said. The most popular vaccine to skip in her district is the hepatitis B, followed by polio and the measles-mumps-rubella

    [KQED Quest Health Officials to Consider]

    So right away you can see that there would be a tremendous difficulty filling the “non-vaccinating” arm of the study.

    Or maybe you don’t see. Remember that we need to find 360,000 totally unvaccinated children to find a 10% difference in autism. Let’s say we are going to retrospectively look at the birth cohorts (“live births”) from 2002, 2003, and 2004 (because these children would now be school age, and some of the issues only arise after school entry).
    [Infoplease]
    US Live Births By Year
    2002 4,021,726
    2003 4,089,950
    2004 4,112,052
    Total 12,223,728
    For the sake of argument, , let’s say that the “totally unvaccinated rate” has jumped to 1.0% (0.01). Even then, there would not be enough children to fill the unvaccinated arm of the study and researchers would have to find every single unvaccinated child even to get 122,237 completely unvaccinated children for the study to be have any statistical validity.

    In this quote,

    show me just one just ONE double-blind placebo study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations. You haven’t and you can’t because they haven’t been done.

    Steve Michaels seems to assume that such a study “hasn’t been done” for nefarious reasons — such as researchers don’t want to know, or are avoiding doing such as study because they won’t like the outcomes…or whatever, I cannot speculate further.

    I hope that people reading this particular comment will understand the several limiting factors on “why haven’t they done a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study?” question.

    The first being the ethical issues relative to a prospective study: it cannot and should not be done, because it would expose children to preventable illness.

    The second being the practical issues on a retrospective study: most parents do vaccinate their children (if not completely) and therefore there is insufficient statistical power to say much about any difference between children who are completely unvaccinated and those who have total or partial vaccine coverage.

  485. Steve Michaels
    October 16, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    Well done Shannon. You really do just ignore things that don’t fit into your little dogmatic view. You seem to have the fervor of a religious zealot. That is NOT science. Have you really got nothing to say about the mumps outbreak? The ease with which the properly connected researcher can conduct a study between vaccinated and non-vaccinated population? Nothing but high fives and ‘thanks to my friends for popping in’. Hardly compelling, or do you admit that the research is lacking? Please don’t quote studies that compare vaccine A results to vaccine B results. When you do that, it is like the tobacco industry conducting a study of Marlboro smokers and Newport smokers and saying, ‘well there is no difference in cancer rates, therefore we conclude that smoking doesn’t cause cancer’. That is how silly your studies are.

  486. October 16, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Dear Jane,
    I’d also like to point out that Shannon (with colleagues) started a Special Education PTA for her children’s school district, which benefits not only children with autism but all children in the district who receive special education services.

  487. October 16, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Steve,
    I’d really appreciate it if you would read my comment above the vaccinated vs. nonvaccinated and tell me where you think the reasoning is incorrect.

  488. John Fryer Chemist
    October 16, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Emily

    PEANUT ALLERGY

    Hi Emily

    I am taking you as genuine and can have so much time only to talk about things but to get the diversion out of the way.

    Allergies have many causes. My sister now dead caught her allergy to pollen from breathing in too much pollen.

    This isn’t vaccine allergy.

    Peanuts did not have a known allergy when I was young or none known to me.

    The idea of someone kissing someone who has just had a peanut and dying suddenly is severe allergy.

    People eating food where peanuts have been used and dying but not directly is a huge allergy.

    People eating peanuts and dying is well known and the link evident for all to see.

    Therefore it seems likely that this allergy arrived suddenly.

    We cannot easily trace it back to vaccines for various reasons.

    It was a closely guarded secret and no one except those using it were aware.

    We are talking of an industry already that knew countries had tested for mercury and rejected its use as it was toxic by 1972.

    By this time the developer company had walked away from thimerosal vaccines but allowed other companies in ignorance to use it.

    SIDS had began to get noticed around this time plus or minus two or three years.

    So even in 2010 we don’t know or I don’t know who used peanut oil in which vaccines and when it started. We don’t know if it is still in vaccines in 2010.

    But we know from Charles Richet et al of the allergy/anaphylaxis problem.

    While we try to get sense on thimerosal still in vaccines we are being side tracked from other major illnesses that plague us.

    You say that peanut allergy has doubled so it can’t be vaccines.

    This is a wild statement that may be right or wrong but how can we make models when we have no information.

    We know it has doubled

    We know it is in some vaccines but not a lot more.

    We know that vaccines can initiate allergy.

    So I am at a loss to know what else can be blamed.

    Have peanuts been tinkered about in GMO experiments?

    This can be another line.

    But industry works in secret covens and then hides, denies and obfuscates.

    People die but vaccine secrets still stay secret.

    This is the world we are in.

    CDC want mercury out but won’t push vaccine giants in 2010 and actually recommend mercury vaccines in an incredible turn round of faith and well-being of all of us.

    While mercury levels rise, other industries take their cue.

    If its OK to inject, then its OK locked away in light bulbs.

    Its OK to incinerate bodies full of mercury.

    Etc etc.

    One day I might get round to examining more closely peanuts.

    But at present get the mercury out of everyones vaccines.

    You insist again its not much in vaccines but we have no idea of the mercury compounds going through the gates of vaccine companies and what they have in stocks of thimerosal and vaccines.

    Stories abound that mercury is still being used in many vaccines.

    We know it is injected into pregnant mothers and research is so simple on vaccinated and non-vaccinated and the outcoms that we must almost guess the results are not good for vaccine safety.

    A brief look at modern recording of harm may show a rise in harm but again time is needed to check these things thoroughly by me.

    I see no reason why an honest vaccine industry or vaccine regulator cannot already have done this cross check so why not tell us of the results?

    Why do a bunch of amateurs have to spend years looking at obvious link only to be downed as hopeless at their job?

    Someone tell what is so good about putting amounts of thimerosal in babies vaccines that this horrid research tells us with less mercury than the babies got by analogy with a mouse study implies more harm to them than if older children get fatal amounts of thimerosal.

    The question I ask is why don’t all babies die from mercury vaccines.

    The answer lies in the one in three children with neurological problems.

    They are being harmed but life has the knack of fighting back.

    We see even from this one experiement that mice can block off mercury harm if they are aware that it is harming them.

    PEANUT ALLERGY

    Perhaps in a year I may have got more information as others are also chasing down this as well.

    At the moment its an idea for me but vaccines and GMO tinkering are two lines of enquiry for those interested. At present we can accept they are innocent but this is a dangerous assumption with your statement of the doubling in quick time.

    But for mercury chemists of repute must overwhelmingly support a total ban on mercury vaccines however minute the levels when and if it is shown to be unneccessary.

    For me this is a truism as for more than 130 years we had NO mercury in our vaccines.

    And for my money no peanut oil until a couple of decades ago at a guess.

  489. October 16, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Shannon the way I look at it is its your blog… you have the right to say whatever you want to and approach any subject. So I should be clearer. I am speaking more on the comments that get thrown back and forth within the subject. Does that make more sense? Look below at Steve Michaels comment. Its disrespectful. Therefore the message gets lost. Hence the infighting I was referring to.

    I definitely do not believe the government. As for Scientists… I would need to sit in on many lectures and see the evidence as well as the intention of the Scientist…. Even Science is a money making industry.

  490. October 16, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    I replied to Shannon.. it’s her blog

  491. October 16, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    That was meant to be a question not a smart alec reply.. as in it’s her blog?

  492. October 16, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    I replied to Shannon. And yes a lot of people do freakin’ talk and talk and talk and talk. If you don’t why take it personally? I don’t remember saying names. It was a general and TRUE comment.

  493. October 16, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Hi Jane,
    No worries — “tone of voice” is hard to maintain in print media, isn’t it?

    Forgive me, I’m not going to put in links because the comment then hangs forever in moderation. But you will get directly to the sites mentioned by doing a search on the site names.

    This blog is not Shannon’s — it is a group blog sponsored by Every Child By Two and Vaccinate Your Baby. The editors invited Shannon to republish one of her pieces here.

    Shannon’s main blog is Squidalicious. She is also an editor at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism, and is a columnist at BlogHer.

    ejwillingham and I are also editors at Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism. It is a project we thought up over coffee one day in May 2010. The few costs associated with the project (website registration and so on) we’ve paid for out of own pockets.

    Hope that clears it up for you.

  494. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    And yet another evidence free opinion rant by John.

    Please, answer the questions put to you with some actual evidence and stop the insults, attempts to discuss the issue with a deceased dog, and refusal to accept the well documented evidence presented here.

  495. October 16, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    Thanks Liz! Yeah I use to go to Squidalicious blog when I first started blogging. I liked the blog but quite honestly all the fighting in the comments gave me a headache. I love a good debate but when it gets nasty I don’t participate in all that drama. I had said to ejwillingham that the “talk talk talk” comment was in general. I’m sure in your field you’ve run across that as well.

  496. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    Actually, what we are saying is that it is not ethical to withhold medical care to children.

    Because the stated “study” is supposed to last at least six years and include many children (in the hundreds and thousands) who have not been vaccinated for the diseases that are returning (measles, mumps, pertussis, hib, etc). This means that at least one, or many of those children has a very high probability of getting very sick, with the very real possibility of permanent disability or death.

    This is about the third time I have asked you this, and I have not seen a reply:

    How do you propose to protect the children in the unvaxed arm of the study from harm?

  497. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Yes, we know that the DTaP is not perfect, and it wears off. Newsflash: the immunity from getting pertussis also wears off! This is why you need boosters.

    No vaccine is 100% effective, hence the need for herd immunity. Here is a video that explains that concept (the man who made the video is a libertarian, and a father of an autistic child):

    Some herd immunity arithmetic:

    Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

    950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
    50 unvaccinated persons

    The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

    760 protected persons
    190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
    50 unvaccinated persons

    There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

    760 protected persons without pertussis

    38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
    152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

    10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
    40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

    This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

  498. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Please explain how you would protect the hundreds of the unvaxed arm over the six year term of the study from the diseases that are coming back (measles, mumps, pertussis, etc).

    It would help if you posted the completed design study that showed what safeguards are in place to protected the vulnerable children.

  499. October 16, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    I’ve addressed all your comments, with sources. I can’t really do anything about the fact that you don’t like my answers.

  500. October 16, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    John Fryer’s latest unsubstantiated series of assertions is more evidence that the moderators of this site (I am not one of them, btw; this is a guest post) are not silencing anyone’s opinion — no matter how baseless. This is an open discussion.

  501. October 16, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Thanks Jane.

    I would say — and not in a dismissive way, because I am not trying to end this conversation — that it’s a dangerous oversimplification to dismiss “Government” or “Science” as neither is a monolith.

    We are presenting specific evidence about specific topics, and our evidence is sound. I hope you will re-read the original essay and think about what I’ve said, researched, and experienced — and will return with specific questions.

    Warm regards,

    -Shannon

  502. October 16, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    It wasn’t really a question. It was a statement. I am not making an oversimplification to dismiss “Government” or “Science” I just have enough common sense to know 502 comments later that nobody is listening to each other so why waste my breath. I made a comment and answered some replies. There isn’t much more to say than that. Being able to quote the Bible doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than being being able to ramble of Statistics make a person right. To have my thoughts considered oversimplificated is exactly why I don’t choose to bring my opinons into Forums where people are so obsessed with making their point that they hear nothing else. Thank you. Goodbye.

  503. October 16, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    *oops* so-called statistics that billionaires have come up with.

  504. Chris
    October 16, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    “billionaires have come up with”

    Who?

  505. October 16, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    @Chris read the whole conversation we were talking about the government and scientists. I also said Goodbye.

    I am trying to be polite. So unless you want to leave me directions on how to turn off follow up comments via email there are plenty of other people on here whom enjoy commenting and not listening. Goodbye.

  506. Steve Michaels
    October 16, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    Dear Jane,

    I did not make that comment.

  507. October 16, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    My apologies Steve. I don’t have my glasses on and