Should I Take My Three-Week Old to the Family Reunion?
Aug 08, 2014

DrZibnersToday Dr. Lara Zibners addresses a concern that was raised on our Vaccinate Your Baby Facebook page (now the Vaccinate Your Family Facebook page), which addresses the difficult task parents face in protecting their newborn babies from vaccine preventable diseases before they are old enough to be vaccinated themselves.  If you have a vaccine-related concern that you would like to provide for discussion, please email Vaccinate Your Family at You can also get the answers to many common questions about vaccines on our Vaccinate Your Family website.

I have a 3 week old son and I plan on vaccinating him appropriately. However my family is having a reunion next week and I want to go. I have been very strict about only having vaccinated visitors. Is it ok to go to this reunion when I can’t check to see if every person is vaccinated? There will be 20-40 people there. Also, my brother-in-law doesn’t vaccinate his kids and I haven’t let them or their kids meet my baby yet. Am I being crazy or should I stick to this? I just want to do what’s best for my baby.


Wow! You plan on getting out of the house with a 3-week old? That’s ambitious. I’m impressed. I’m also incredibly impressed with your concern about exposing your new little one to vaccine preventable illnesses. Not to mention how delicate and difficult the topic is when friends and family willingly don’t vaccinate and risk the health of their children and yours. It’s awkward, as I’ve already said.

But moving on from that, I think we need to have a real conversation about what vaccines can and can’t do. I am blatantly pro-immunization. I, along with the overwhelming majority of physicians and scientists, believe that vaccines truly are the greatest medical innovation of all time. They have saved more lives than any other medical advancement in history. Vaccines work, they are safe, and they save lives.

But let’s be honest – vaccines don’t provide 100% immunity to every single individual vaccinated. Some vaccines work better than others. That is why “herd immunity” (also known as “community immunity” or “community protection”) is so very, very important. 

They can have side effects, although the vast majority of those are mild and short-lived. And most importantly, they aren’t the only thing you should be doing to protect your children. Vaccines are not child safety seats. They aren’t bike helmets. And they definitely aren’t protective bubbles against every possible infection that could threaten the health—or even life—of a newborn.

We have a few rules in pediatrics. Like “Mountain Dew is not an appropriate drink for a toddler.” Or “Never stick your fingers inside a conscious child’s mouth.” And then there is this one: “All babies less than 4 weeks old with fever get the full shebang.” And by shebang I mean blood work, urine tests, spinal tap and whatever else might clue us into the source of a temperature over 100.4F. Then we throw in some IV antibiotics and a hospital admission until the test results are back. That’s just one of our rules. No thinking about it. No discussion. We just do it. Sound’s a bit rash, don’t you think?

Well, actually, it’s a rule with a lot of history and background. In fact, the rule stretches to babies under 3 months to the extent that they at least get blood and urine tests and extremely close follow-up. You might be wondering if this is because these babies are too young to be vaccinated. But that’s only part of the equation. Newborns are also at risk from infections acquired during birth. As in from dear old Mom’s nether regions. (C-sections don’t negate this risk. His head was hanging around down there for some time, amniotic sac or not, you know what I’m saying?) In all seriousness, there are a few infections that can be transmitted from mother to baby before, during and after birth. On top of that, a newborn’s immune system is still immature, making him highly susceptible to any other infectious agents that might come along.

Dr. Zibners,” you might be thinking. “Why don’t you try examining the patient and then decide whether she really needs all that before just blindly jabbing the wee one with tubes and needles?”

Ah, I wish it were that simple. One of our other sayings in pediatrics? “Never trust a newborn.” It’s not that we think your precious darling is purposely deceptive or inherently sneaky. It’s because little babies can have very few symptoms or signs and yet be in perilous danger. A slight fever might indicate meningitis, an infected joint or bacteria in the blood stream. Then again it might indicate a common cold. In fact, the latter is more often the case. But the point is, we can’t tell. And the risk of missing an infection that could cause permanent disability or even death far outweighs the risk of a few tests and a couple of days in the hospital.

Which means the decision to expose your new baby to spaces in which you can’t control the number of people or whether those people are potential vectors for infection extends beyond a conversation about vaccines. You have to weigh up the risks and benefits for you and your family. General advice is to avoid public places, such as the grocery store or church crowds until the baby is well past this danger stage, ideally older than 3 months. At this point he should have had at least one set of shots and a fever doesn’t mean an automatic visit to the pediatrician or ER.

But obviously this advice doesn’t work for everyone. Your family has to eat, doesn’t it? I completely understand when parents’ don’t heed our advice because it may be impractical or even impossible. I’m going to confess right here and now that I put my 6 day-old on a flight from California to New York. But the risk/benefit analysis went like this: my daughter, Zoe, was born via surrogate, 3000 miles from our home. And my daughter Eva was 3 ½ months old and her final adoption hearing –in Florida–was the week after Zoe finally decided to make her appearance. It’s wasn’t ideal, but what was I going to do? The neonatologist gave me his blessing but I will tell you, I was one sweaty, hyperventilating freak show for 6 hours that day. Fortunately, as is most often the case, she was completely fine. I knew that was the most likely outcome but I had to be okay with my decision if she had developed a fever a few days later. The point is, sometimes life gets in the way of our best intentions and, as parents we just have to do the best we can.

CDC_Measles-Cases-616pxIf you must travel with a newborn, my advice is to limit—wherever possible—exposure to germs. Germs from strangers, family or friends. If you can, go by car. We all know air travel is asking for a cold, don’t we? Whichever way you travel, try to keep the baby far from curious and well-meaning hands. No aunties kissing your newborn.  No snotty nosed cousins coming within spitting distance. Because the simple fact is that the more people your little one is exposed to, the higher the risk of her becoming ill.  We must realize that few adults are up-to-date on their Tdap boosters, which is contributing to record numbers of whooping cough cases nationwide.  And don’t even get me started on measles cases that are unknowingly imported by U.S. travelers. (Note from Vaccinate Your Family: Measles cases are still being imported into the U.S. in 2019. Learn more.)

Of course, this brings us back to the beginning. Everyday we wake up and perform risk/benefit analyses for our kids as we try to do our best to keep them safe and healthy. Vaccines are a critical part of this analysis. I completely empathize with your predicament. But I think your question is really twofold. First, is it worth traveling with a 3 week-old and exposing him to crowds of people? And second, is it worth the additional risk if some of those people are willingly unvaccinated?

It’s a personal decision and one that is, I know, really, really hard. Good luck. 

Dr. Lara Zibners

While the decision to immunize may be an easy one, sometimes our efforts to protect our children can interfere with our relationships with our friends and family.  Especially when others are willingly unvaccinated.  If you’ve had to handle a situation similar to the one mentioned above, feel free to share your thoughts and suggestions in the comments below.



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313 responses to “Should I Take My Three-Week Old to the Family Reunion?”

  1. This is a fantastic response to a question families ask me all the time! Definitely sharing!

  2. Lindsay says:

    As much as you may want to go to the family reunion, I would have to say you shouldn’t go to this one. Young newborns should be kept at home for at least the first six months. The parents should think about whether people going near the baby have a contagious illness, and try to keep them away as much as is reasonably possible. That won’t protect him from everything, and he eventually needs exposure to many kinds of germs to build up his immune system, but protecting him from possible exposure to pertussis is a good idea. The pertussis vaccine has a high rate of ineffectiveness, so that even people who have gotten it recently may still be carrying the germs and spread them to your baby. Even if it protected 90% of those who get it, that would still leave 10% that it didn’t. Why take the chance?

  3. Chris says:

    Lindsay, you still have questions to answer over here. No one should really take much stock in what you say until you provide the citations that have been asked of you, multiple times.

    Also, having had a child with medical issues who spent his first week in a hospital hooked to various IVs, there was no way we could keep him home for six months, between doctors’ appointments and having to actually get groceries, plus his medications.

    The best thing would be to make sure community immunity to pertussis is as high as possible. That means avoiding areas where there is low vaccine compliance.

  4. Scooter says:

    Lindsay, well said.

  5. Chris says:

    Really, Scooter? You also have questions to answer over here. No one should give you credence until you can show to be able to think independently and support your statements with real evidence.

  6. Scooter says:

    I don’t have any questions to answer Chris. I’ve got all the evidence I need. Thanks for asking though, and have a lovely weekend, Chris.

  7. Chris says:

    Click on the blue letters and answer the questions you were asked over there. Because right now you seem to be a bit sock puppetish, so you need to prove you can think interdependently.

  8. Scooter says:

    Not sure what a sock puppet is, but I can express my opinion without answering any of your ridiculous questions.

  9. Chris says:

    The problem is while you are welcome to your opinion, you may not make up your own facts. You made statements on facts that you failed to provide evidence for. And therefore you, Lindsay and all of your socky friends need to be ignored.

  10. Lawrence says:

    Scooter is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts, which he has conveniently refused to provide anyway.

  11. Lindsay says:

    Thanks, Scooter, same to you! And Chris, everyone just has to do the best they can. I’m sure you were doing the best you could under difficult and sad circumstances, but it is still the case that keeping newborns as protected as possible at home is a good idea for those who can manage it. What now vaccine-preventable disease did your son have? Maybe pneumococcal meningitis?

  12. Chris says:

    Lindsay, answer the questions pertaining the claims you have made on the other thread. And then explain how best to maintain community immunity to pertussis, with verifiable documentation. Until then you should be ignored, or be an example of the lack of substance from the anti-vaccine agenda, which your lack of evidence screams in homeopathic abundance.

    The plural of anecdote is not data, So I know better than to think my personal anecdote is data, you should learn the same. Here is some pertinent data that you should consider examples for future comments:

    Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

    Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
    Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

  13. […] joys. It’s not always appropriate for very young babies, as you can see from my post this week at Shot of Prevention. But when you can, what a gift to give your children: the chance to see new places and learn about […]

  14. lilady says:

    IMO, you don’t take a young infant out into crowded areas for unnecessary trips. A family reunion is not a necessary trip and there will be other family reunions when the baby is older. You should however, take slews of pictures of your baby, place them in a photo album and provide the album to a family member who is attending the reunion, so that everyone there has the opportunity to see your beautiful baby.

  15. Heather Vee says:

    I think it is important to avoid crowds for the first 3 months or so; but even that doesn’t always work out – like my daughter got her first cold at six weeks, probably something my husband or I brought home with us :(. Plus life gets in the way in other ways: I have a baby due the week after my daughter starts up pre-school again – those preschool germs can be nasty!

    That being said, knowing how many things I can’t control, I can control the potential exposure from a family reunion. I probably wouldn’t go to a family reunion with a four-week-old baby. It might be one of the first sacrifices made for a kid, like how we’ve missed a lot of fun family stuff to keep naps and bedtime on track unless it is a REALLY special occasion 🙂

  16. Chemmomo says:

    Lindsay “Young newborns should be kept at home for at least the first six months.”
    Really? At six months old, the child is not only no longer a newborn, but I would not even describe a baby that age as a young infant. At six months old, both of my children were interacting with others and one of them was mobile. I was supposed to keep them at home, away from the world, all that time? How are they supposed to develop in any way at all if all they ever do is stay home?

    I hope you enjoyed your self imposed isolation, and that your children did not suffer from it.

    • lilady says:

      The infant being discussed here is 3 weeks old. The only vaccine(s) that infant has received is the hepatitis B vaccine. The other childhood vaccines are not given until two months of age:

      I actually contracted pertussis, just before the Tdap vaccine was recommended for adults. I was eternally grateful that I was not anywhere near a young infant before the onset of my symptoms.

      Call me overly cautious, but I know only too well how vulnerable very young infants are. I actually cringe when a see a very young infant being passed around like a football at her/his baptismal celebration party and an 8-day-old infant being handled by anyone other than close family members, at his brit milah.

      (I’ve attended these ceremonies and as much as I love infants…I stay a good distance away from them…I don’t want to inadvertently infect any young infant).

  17. Chemmomo says:

    Do you take a 3-week old to a family reunion?

    I am going to weigh in on the other side of the coin, and you may feel free to bash me as much as you’d like.

    There are a lot of factors to consider, as Dr Zibners noted in her post.

    lilady believes not: “A family reunion is not a necessary trip and there will be other family reunions when the baby is older” and suggests sending photos instead.

    However, your newborn is not the only member of your family.

    Do you deny your newborn’s older siblings the opportunity to attend the reunion?

    Do you deny your older relatives the opportunity to meet your baby in person? Sure, the baby will be older later on, but your relatives will be as well, assuming they’re still alive.

    It’s almost never going to be a clear cut decision.

    Yes, we protect our children any way we can – but our children are not living in isolation.

  18. Chris says:

    Chemmomo: “I was supposed to keep them at home, away from the world, all that time? How are they supposed to develop in any way at all if all they ever do is stay home?”

    I have asked the same thing to Cia Parker when she has suggested it as a way to protect a baby from pertussis. It is terribly unrealistic, and I can’t believe anyone who has had a baby would suggest that, other than Ms. Parker (who seems to like to return here with different names even after being banned multiple times).

  19. Chemmomo says:

    lilady “The infant being discussed here is 3 weeks old.”
    I understand that. I actually had to make the same decision in real life several years ago, and I chose differently from your recommendations. I haven’t had pertussis, but ironically (on many levels) my infant in question may well have suffered it later during first grade as a mild vaccine-failure case.

    “I actually cringe when a see a very young infant being passed around like a football”
    As do I. Tip for new parents: you don’t have to pass the infant around. No, you just don’t. Slings and other baby-wearing carriers are great deterrents.

    My point is that there are many factors in the decision making process. I don’t consider the baby’s age, even while a newborn, an automatic veto.

    There are things that might increase the risks to your newborn. Do you have to take public transportation (including airlines) or are you driving your own car? Is the event at someone’s home, or catered in a public venue, exposing the baby to more random strangers? In the example under discussion in the post above, we do have the added problem of vaccine rejecting family members, but that caveat does not necessarily apply to everyone facing this kind of decision.
    Apart from that problem, you can keep the risks to your newborn while attending a family event more or less that same as the risks the baby encounters in regular life (unless you’re Lindsay from the second comment and prefer not to leave your home). Again, you don’t have to pass the baby around!

    There are also benefits to participating in family events which you are completely dismissing. We are talking about family, right? And your newborn is in fact part of it—as well as you and your spouse and any older siblings.

    Here’s the thing: I’ve reached the age now where my generation is no longer “the kids” in the family. We’ve become the parents, and our own kids are “the kids.” That means our parents have become the grandparents, and so on up with great-grandparents. Except that they’re not all here any more.

    So is that family reunion truly “not a necessary trip”? We all have to evaluate that for our own individual circumstances. But does your newborn live in a vacuum? Away from all exposure to any infectious disease, and extended family?
    My answer was – and still is – “no.” I’ll do what I can to minimize exposure risks, and let my baby be a part of my family.

    • lilady says:

      We can agree to disagree.

      I have seen too many very young infants hospitalized with pertussis and other vaccine-preventable-diseases to be wary of taking a 3-week-old baby to a family reunion at that age. You are fortunate that your young infant may have contracted pertussis due to secondary vaccine failure (waning immunity) at age six.

      The Tdap vaccine is now recommended for every woman during every pregnancy, and recommended for close household members and for caregivers, who expect to have contact with a child under one year of age.

  20. Lindsay says:

    It’s really just a question of reality. You are saying it’s not fair that other family members not be allowed to attend the reunion in order to protect the newborn, that it’s not fair to keep a six-month old baby from the presence of other babies because it might stunt his social development (at an age when he can’t even sit up yet). The age limit is somewhat arbitrary, as each child develops differently, but the bottom line is that in normal cases, older children are better able to handle diseases like pertussis and measles than younger children. You are certainly free to do as you like, and in most cases exposure to large numbers of people will not cause the newborn to contract a dangerous disease at a time when his immune system has not developed enough to be able to combat it as well as it would at a later age. But sometimes it will. The germs are not going to listen to your arguments about fairness, and, if the people have not gotten a Tdap recently or at all, or if the vaccine fails to prevent pertussis either in the person who gives it inadvertenly to the baby, or in the infant himself who has gotten one or several DTaPs, and its failure in these cases is very common, then you will have to deal with the thought that if only you had observed simple precautions, he would probably not have gotten the disease. Your choice.

  21. Chemmomo says:

    I’ve realized I made a mistake in my timeline. This is why I don’t trust parental anecdotes – we all make mistakes.

    There was in fact 2 ½ years between my younger child’s receiving the DTaP and the persistent cough. At the time, we were aware of the relatively low efficacy of DTaP, but the literature on waning immunity was just coming out. Regardless, it is quite likely that my child was not fully protected against pertussis, and suffered a mild case which lasted (with treatment for the cough) for just over a month – still a better situation than 3 months of coughing without the vaccine at all.

  22. Lawrence says:

    @Lindsay – I do sometimes err on the side of caution….my own son got the Flu at age 4 months (scary as hell, let me tell ya), while neither my wife and I got it (we had been vaccinated). You can’t control all of the different variables, but in the case with children who are too young to be vaccinated, one cannot be too careful with all of the anti-vax nutjobs walking around….

  23. Lawrence says:

    @Lindsay – here is the story of a woman that went from anti-vax to pro-vax because of personal experience:

  24. Chemmomo says:

    Lindsay, you have a reading comprehension problem.

    I have no idea how you latched on the idea of “fairness” as I never mentioned that.

    My argument (on the topic of this blog post) is that the age of the newborn should not automatically veto the decision about attending a family reunion. And that there are benefits as well as risks to weigh, particularly if the family includes older members – who in fact may be equally at risk from infectious disease as the newborn.

    That has nothing to do with my response to you, which I posted as a separate comment. I also happen to think it’s ridiculous to argue that a baby should never leave the house for six months over fear of infectious disease – which is *your* argument.

    You wrote “at an age when he can’t even sit up yet.” Did you skip over where I wrote “one of them was mobile”? Yes, I am aware that most children (including my own other child) have slower physical development than my first, but that does not in fact change my objections to your viewpoint.

    For some reason you added the adjective “social” to “development” when what I actually wrote was “develop in any way at all.” Babies, mobile or not, need to experience the world around them in order to gain physical, social, and cognitive development. That’s not happening if your child’s world is limited to the inside of your house.

    I feel really sorry for you and your children if you are both too afraid of infectious disease and too afraid of the vaccines that prevent them for most people to allow your infants to live in the real world.

    “It’s really just a question of reality.” Lindsay: you are not in reality.

  25. Lindsay says:

    And, as I said, in most cases nothing will happen even if you take your infant out in public. However, young infants only need the society of a loving mother to be happy: milk, warmth, cuddles. The infant cannot play with other children. I would say walks around the neighborhood in a sling or a stroller, or lying on a blanket in the backyard to see birds and leaves, sunshine, clouds, would be good for him. He doesn’t need or want anything else. My baby got the DTaP vaccine several times and then, just a few months later, caught pertussis. Even pertussis is not usually a dangerous disease, but it can be among very young babies. Why risk it? I just want young families to be aware that it has made a big comeback, and it is definitely a danger that any baby may encounter, but the more people around that baby, the higher his chances of getting it. And, Lilady, I’m glad that we’re on the same page on this issue (in some respects).

  26. Chemmomo says:

    Lindsay, I’m sorry your child contracted pertussis at a young in spite of being vaccinated. We do have that in common, except that my own child was a vaccinated first grader rather than an infant, and I do understand the disease is much more serious in a smaller child such as your infant, or Dana McCaffrey, or any of the 10 infants who died in CA in 2010. And I’ll also point out that by age 6 my child was no stranger to serious illness, including H1N1 flu as a toddler (before the vaccine became available).

    But I still take issue with your message.

    I infer from your comments that you only have one child, who is developmentally average.

    Here is my major issue. I quote: “young infants only need the society of a loving mother to be happy: milk, warmth, cuddles.” I agree: for the first month or so. But your initial post from August 8th insists they should be “kept at home for at least the first six months.” You said SIX MONTHS! That is absolute nonsense for the developmentally average infant (or even developmentally delayed), and absolute insanity for an infant who is developmentally ahead. Trust me on this one.

    We can and should reduce the risks to our children, but we cannot eliminate them. And we cannot pretend that a normal infant should live in a bubble uncontaminated by the real world. In the real world, the parent who is earning a paycheck or the older sibling engaging in age appropriate activities are going to increase the risks of infectious disease for the younger sibling.

    And that actually brings me back to my original point, and my disagreement with lilady. Yes, protecting your newborn should be very high priority for your family. But your baby is not the only part of your family. It doesn’t make much sense to sacrifice the rest of it.

  27. Chris says:

    Why does Lindsay’s avatar box change color and pattern every time she posts, unlike everyone else?

  28. Toni says:

    Wow!!! Dr Zibners, I can’t believe this article. I was wandering around the web & just happen to stumble upon it and had to read. Wow!!! I must quote what you said:
    “One of our other sayings in pediatrics? ‘Never trust a newborn.’ It’s not that we think your precious darling is purposely deceptive or inherently sneaky. It’s because little babies can have very few symptoms or signs and yet be in perilous danger.”

    On a total rabbit trail from what everyone here is talking about… People claim Autism comes about from babies being vaccinated where Drs had no idea their immune systems were already compromised. So…. If you read your statement again, well, you just swung for the other team.

    I keep researching to make up my mind and you have totally convinced me with this post that indeed, vaccines cause Autism in babies who “have very few symptoms & signs yet are in perilous danger”, but pediatricians don’t even bother to investigate before the stab.

    I encourage parents on this site to do their homework. It’s shocking just how much pediatricians DON’T know.

    Please take the time to ask a parent why they chose not to be “anti-vaccine”, but “protect their child’s immune system from man made toxins”. You will be shocked at the amount (years) of research these parents have done. It comes across as a reckless action to those parents who just walk amongst the herd, but trust me when I say these parents adore their children. I know, I’m one of them.

    Our son is recovering from autism. We stopped vaccinating him at 2 years old. We stopped his sister at one. Both kids are now 6 and 4. They haven’t seen a pediatrician since that day. Neither have had so much as a cold. For four years!! The threat are the vaccinated children spending their time at the peds office getting amoxicillin for every little thing. Not the ones whose little bodies are clean & pure from vaccines.

    • lilady says:

      Just wandering around the ‘net, eh? I doubt it.

      So, tell us your theory of why your child was born autistic and how you you are “recovering” your child.

      Tell us also, how you educated yourself about autism and about vaccines, by providing links to citations and to your sources, to back up your statements.

      BTW, thanks for backing up my opinion about not exposing a 3 week old infant to children whose parents refuse to provide them with preventive vaccines.

  29. novalox says:


    [citation needed] for your assertions, because they fly in the face of reality and science.

  30. toni says:

    Hi lilady, novalox, Thanks for the opportunity to address your questions. First off, please note, I never said my child was “born autistic”. I don’t believe that one bit. Actually, no parent believes that. My child was absolutely perfect, smiling, talking until slowly after each vaccine he became sicker. Looking back, he definitely had some unseen issues along with what Dr. Zibners mentioned, but pediatricians missed. At one point after vaccines, I recorded him “shaking”. I showed this to the pediatrician along with my concerns of small siezures and I was told, “oh, he’s just cold”. I also asked a new pediatrician why he was talking and now at 2yrs lost all language. I was told, “he’s too handsome to be autistic”. (I didn’t even know what autism was at that time). Fast forward four years and at this point and I am so grateful for the incredible knowledge that I’ve obtained.

    When I asked his developmental ped if he could actually recover from this (we had already had huge evidence that he could with the steps we had taken), she said, “no one can recover”. When I pressed her on this and his advancements, her response, “Listen, us pediatricians go by the book. If it’s in the book, we teach and believe it. If it’s not we can’t rely on the evidence because that’s not how we were taught.” At this point, I never went back to a pediatrician again. This is my child. Whom I love and would give my life for. And yup, I have sacrificed so much to get him where he is today–almost neurotypical. I would love to share all that we did to recover him, if you want, send me your email and I can share, because it’s MASSIVE. Don’t want to jam up this entire blog! But you both did ask for links and citations.
    So here they are: (please keep in mind, you’re asking for citations for four years of research on my part, this is only part of it)

    Also, please note that with this, I am not attacking parents on this site. I was you…once…I’m just saying anyone thinking about vaccines for their beautiful children (which for some will indeed become life altering) should absolutely listen to their own inner voice and do the type of research that will answer their own questions and get them to a place where all the info in their head matches their intuition and heart.

    Oh. And by the way, I can tell you what the ingredients are in the vaccines your children are injected with. Can you tell me? Can your pediatrician? Most folks have no idea, except that what’s about to go into those little bodies is “safe”. Listen, I’m not here to make war. I’m too busy fighting another one. I just want parents to choose to be wise men and not sheeples.

    *Tenpenny,Sherri, MD (2008). Saying No to Vaccines.

    *Mendelshon, R., MD (1987). How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor

    (this is what you should read before you inject…notice how your precious ones are getting doses of formaldehyde, fetus lung fibroblasts, chick embryos, thirmasol….all that, into you child) And this one’s from the CDC themself, so….

    *Miller, Neil Z. (2002). Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?

    *Drake, J (2009) Vaccination Horror: An Anthology of Important Works on Vaccination Pseudoscience

    *Cave, S. MD (2001) What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children’s Vaccinations

    *British Columbia Centre for Disease Control and Laval University (2009). Seasonal Flu Shot
    Linked to H1N1


    *Tempenny,Sherri, MD (2003). Vaccines: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal

    *Coleman, Vernon MD Diptheria. Vernon Colman Health Letter

    *Creighton, C. MD (2009) The Vaccination Myth: Courageous MD exposes the vaccination fraud

    *De Melker, H.E., (2000) Reemergence of pertussis in the highly vaccinated population of the Netherlands: observations on surveillance data. Department of Infectious Disease Epiddemiology, National Institute of Public Health & Environment

    *Baker, Jeffrey (2002) The Pertussis Controversy in Great Britain, 1974-1986. Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities. Duke University


    * Two Senators Call for Hide No Harm Act for Execs Who Conceal Product Dangers

    * (hundreds of scientific articles here)

    * (tons of info here as well)

    * (tons of info)

    (they mention here, and you can also find this info elsewhere, our children get 14 vaccines in 49 doses by age six, four times more than they did back in the 70’s!! Thirty years ago, autism was 1 in 2500. Now it’s 1 in 54.)


    I’ll stop now! Honestly, this is just a few months worth of my four year research. My apologies for taking up space! Please let me know if I can offer more info. Again, our family didn’t decide “not to vaccinate”. Your family members that have unvaccinated children aren’t choosing to “not vaccinate and endanger others”, they, we, are deciding to allow our children to keep their immune cells and system healthy and uncontaminated with toxins. It’s not a negative decision to not vaccinate. It’s a positive decision in favor of a strong immune system and overall health. It’s a fine but clear difference.

    Grace and peace to you.

    • lilady says:

      “Hi lilady, novalox, Thanks for the opportunity to address your questions. First off, please note, I never said my child was “born autistic”. I don’t believe that one bit. Actually, no parent believes that. My child was absolutely perfect, smiling, talking until slowly after each vaccine he became sicker.”

      Reread my reply to you…I said your child was born with autism. Autism is genetic…i.e., you are born with it and frankly, your “belief” flies in the face of the reliable scientific evidence, including this meta analysis of case control and cohort studies, published June 17, 2014 in the Vaccine Journal:


      There has been enormous debate regarding the possibility of a link between childhood vaccinations and the subsequent development of autism. This has in recent times become a major public health issue with vaccine preventable diseases increasing in the community due to the fear of a ‘link’ between vaccinations and autism. We performed a meta-analysis to summarise available evidence from case-control and cohort studies on this topic (MEDLINE, PubMed, EMBASE, Google Scholar up to April, 2014). Eligible studies assessed the relationship between vaccine administration and the subsequent development of autism or autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Two reviewers extracted data on study characteristics, methods, and outcomes. Disagreement was resolved by consensus with another author. Five cohort studies involving 1,256,407 children, and five case-control studies involving 9,920 children were included in this analysis. The cohort data revealed no relationship between vaccination and autism (OR: 0.99; 95% CI: 0.92 to 1.06) or ASD (OR: 0.91; 95% CI: 0.68 to 1.20), nor was there a relationship between autism and MMR (OR: 0.84; 95% CI: 0.70 to 1.01), or thimerosal (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.77 to 1.31), or mercury (Hg) (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.93 to 1.07). Similarly the case-control data found no evidence for increased risk of developing autism or ASD following MMR, Hg, or thimerosal exposure when grouped by condition (OR: 0.90, 95% CI: 0.83 to 0.98; p = 0.02) or grouped by exposure type (OR: 0.85, 95% CI: 0.76 to 0.95; p = 0.01). Findings of this meta-analysis suggest that vaccinations are not associated with the development of autism or autism spectrum disorder. Furthermore, the components of the vaccines (thimerosal or mercury) or multiple vaccines (MMR) are not associated with the development of autism or autism spectrum disorder.

      Which parents are you hanging around with? All of the parents I know, who have children with developmental disorders, including children diagnosis with ASDs, have done their research which is published in first tier, peer-reviewed medical journals, and they do not “believe” that vaccines, the ingredients in vaccines (antigens, preservatives, adjuvants, excipients, culture media), the spacing and timing of vaccines are in any way associated with the onset of autism/ASDs/other developmental disabilities, allergies, autoimmune disorders, cancers and whatever disease du jour that your anti-vaccine groups dream up.

      So no. Your anecdotal case study (n=1) and your “belief” does not count.

  31. Chris says:

    None of those are verifiable scientific citations.

  32. Lawrence says:

    @toni – using notorious anti-vax websites and individuals as your “sources” doesn’t not lend much credibility to your opinions…..

  33. Kelsey Harris says:

    Thank you for so much valuable information, Toni! I’m so glad your son is recovering, and I’d love to know how you have done it.

  34. toni says:

    Wow, Chris!! You read ALL of those sources…page by page….word for word in under a 1/2 hour??!! I could use you in my research–save me tons of time! It also concerns me that both Chris and Lawrence have decided that the CDC is not verifiable as well as are a notorious anti-vax website. Yikes. The folks who are pushing these vaccines on your kiddos are not credible? Eeek. So you choose to vaccinate then….why again?

    Look, I won’t be responding anymore on here..not because it’s a battle you won, again, I’m not in battle with you, I stumbled upon this blog and decided to read and was floored. I gave some info and now I’m moving on with my life. I just want to plant a seed for parents to think for themselves. It’s a modern day Matrix. I just decided along with some others to take the red pill.

    And guys, we’re not “anti-vaxers” anymore than you are “child abusers”. Please read my post again. We are wanting a better life for our kids free of diseases, ear infections, amoxicillin and countless other stuff that many parents sit at the peds office monthly for. And again, my years of research….it’s not just vaccines. It’s our food today as well. Trust me folks, this isn’t the world we grew up in. These things are harming our kids. We are all doing what we think is best for them.

    Funny thing, it seems like two groups against each other, but those who vaccinate seem to have an underlying anger in them, lashing out and insulting those that don’t (plenty of name-calling on this post for sure). If you read any of the sources I provided, especially the websites, no one lashes out accusing those who DO vaccinate to be cruel, abusers, bad parents deliberately harming their children. We just see it as uninformed.

    And I forgot to address lillady’s comment of doubting I was just wandering around the internet….yes, lilady, I was. I cannot attend a cross-country family reunion because kiddos start school and I wanted to send a gift on our behalf. I googled “what can I send to a family reunion I can’t attend” and this site was a hit. I got curious….

    Never did figure out what to send them. But I’m grateful to leave a footprint here. If I caused feathers to ruffle, that’s a good thing. It’s good to be challenged. You guys can only grow and learn from here on out.

  35. Chris says:

    All I had to do is read the sources, and determine that they were not relevant scientific papers. Since I encountered the anti-vaccine movement twenty years ago I have become very familiar with many of those names and arguments. Including thinking a list of ingredients by the CDC can be understood by someone who cannot tell what is actual evidence. One hint: if a doctor’s website include a link to where you can buy his/hers products, they are not to be trusted.

    You should see the articles on many of those authors in Try #930, #274,and #457 on that blog. You may also see many of them have been discussed on this blog.

    If you feel that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease, then provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers with that evidence.

  36. Chris says:

    By the way, the tactic of dumping lots of links and references has a name: Gish Gallop. Don’t do it again if you wish to be taken seriously.

    Also, having some previously unknown user come in to give you a vacuous compliment is a sigh of using a sock puppet. Again, not a way to be taken seriously.

    Just choose one vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule, and then list a couple of PubMed indexed studies by reputable reliable researchers to prove that there is more risk from the vaccine than the disease.

  37. Lawrence says:

    @lilady – in my extensive travels & conversations, I have yet to meet even a single parent that believes that vaccines are anything other than wonderful medical advances. Even the parents I know that have children on the spectrum don’t believe the autism-vaccine link – they think the anti-vax people are crazy & wish they would stop using their children to attack vaccines.

  38. novalox says:


    Considering that your citations are from notorious anti-vaccination sites instead of actual peer-reviewed journals, as well as from known anti-vax individuals, who are known to be pushing an agenda, I can safely assume that you are not telling the truth here.

  39. Chris says:

    i sincerely doubt Toni actually read much on her Gish Gallop, especially the following:

    *Baker, Jeffrey (2002) The Pertussis Controversy in Great Britain, 1974-1986. Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities. Duke University

    That paper is available here. She must have missed this part: “By the time it subsided in the middle of 1979, authorities had reported 102,500 cases throughout the United Kingdom, far more than in any comparable time period since the widespread use of the vaccine (Fig. 1). Though the case fatality rate was lower than in previous epidemics, an estimated 36 children (mainly infants) died in the course of the outbreak [14]”

    It also mentions Gordon Stewart, who turned himself into a kind of “expert witness”, until he botched up his testimony in the Kinnear trial when it was revealed he was misquoting studies. From that same paper: “The most prominent of these took place in 1985–1986, and again involved the (by this point retired) Stewart. Now more isolated from the medical profession, Stewart served as leading expert for the prosecution in the key legal case of Johnnie Kinnear, a 15-year-old with the mental age of 20 months allegedly due to pertussis vaccine. The case unraveled, however, when the parents lost legal aid after contradictions were exposed between their own testimony and hospital records [30]. The dismissal marked the end of Stewart’s public role in whooping cough vaccine controversy, and left his allies in disarray.”

    By the way, Gordon Stewart is also now an HIV/AIDS denier. He would not be considered a reputable researcher.

    Thank you, Toni, for making me aware of this paper. I have added it to my list, especially since it has very interesting information on Gordon Stewart, and others, along with showing the damage done by those who oppose vaccines.

  40. Chris says:

    My comment went into moderation, but I did find one paper posted by Toni:

    Baker, Jeffrey (2002) The Pertussis Controversy in Great Britain, 1974-1986. Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities. Duke University

    A quick Google search brought up a pdf file, and it basically shows how anti-vaccine movements work and how they are dangerous, plus lots of stuff on the less than illustrious career of Prof. Gordon Stewart. Toni should actually read it instead of cut and pasting lists from other websites.

  41. lilady says:

    You’ll notice that Toni did not reply to my query about the methods she uses to “recover” her autistic child.

  42. Sullivan (Matt Carey) says:

    “Wow, Chris!! You read ALL of those sources…page by page….word for word in under a 1/2 hour??!”

    The URL’s show that you are not picking scientific reports. You are choosing credulous websites. The Age of Autism? Canary Party?

    Go ahead and call me “closed minded” or whatever. I’ll take data over opinion.

  43. Chris says:

    Though The Pertussis Controversy in Great Britain, 1974-1986 turned out to be a good citation. Though it actually showed that the DTP vaccine was safer than the disease.

  44. Chemmomo says:

    toni “My child was absolutely perfect”

    Aren’t they all?

    “And by the way, I can tell you what the ingredients are in the vaccines your children are injected with.”
    Please do. With an explanation in your own words of the function of each of those ingredients, and the toxicity data collected on them. I personally cannot rattle off a scary sounding list of vaccine ingredient chemicals because when I read them, I can actually evaluate them. And I have enough knowledge to understand what the molecules are, in what concentrations per dose, and what they’re there for— and I am not afraid of them.

    “we, are deciding to allow our children to keep their immune cells and system healthy and uncontaminated with toxins. It’s not a negative decision to not vaccinate. It’s a positive decision in favor of a strong immune system”
    The liver, kidneys, and other metabolic pathways deal with “toxins,” not the immune system.

    “I just want parents to choose to be wise men and not sheeples.”
    You know what, toni? I don’t want want parents to be “sheeples,” either. I’d prefer they learn some actual biology and chemistry before falling victim to the fearmongers whose websites you list as your “references.”

    By the way, toni, I do have experience with a child’s reaction to vaccines – and it was nothing like what you describe. And there has been medical followup for my child, as recommended by my pediatrician. And our experiences have not led us to shun vaccines.

  45. Chemmomo says:

    toni, “Wow, Chris!! You read ALL of those sources…page by page….word for word in under a 1/2 hour??!! I could use you in my research–save me tons of time!”

    Some of us have had prior contact with those sources. Is that really so hard to believe?

    “It also concerns me that both Chris and Lawrence have decided that the CDC is not verifiable as well as are a notorious anti-vax website.”

    You did not link the CDC directly.

    “We are wanting a better life for our kids free of diseases”
    Your best chance at achieving that is vaccinating.

    “And again, my years of research….it’s not just vaccines. It’s our food today as well. Trust me folks, this isn’t the world we grew up in.”
    You’re right! This world is cleaner! In the USA, we have OSHA and the EPA now. We removed the anti-knock but neurotoxic lead compound from gasoline, all lead from household paint, most applications of elemental mercury (you know, like in thermometers, used to check your child’s temperature?), and we’re not spraying DDT (or other pesticides) everywhere we think there’s a mosquito problem without weighing the consequences.

    “It’s good to be challenged.”

    I’m challenging you, toni. I don’t think you really flounced, never to return here. Look beyond the fearmongers, who want page hits and book sales—because that is exactly what the websites (i.e., Age of Autism, Thinking Moms, NVIC) you sourced are. They are selling fear.

  46. Emma says:

    Comments still off on the new story? Permanently? You’d need to change the line about this being the place to discuss news and views on vaccines.

  47. Lawrence says:

    @emma – perhaps you’d like to start your own blog then….

  48. dingo199 says:

    I recall some of that refuted Gordon Stewart story now. If I remember correctly, in court he was pontificating about a paper he had produced in evidence that demonstrating vaccine damage in children. Having lured Stewart into repeatedly making this claim, the lawyers then showed Stewart the paper, which was about a study in rats.

  49. Kori says:

    What are the hired hands going to comment on if the comments are left off?

  50. Chris says:

    Kori, do you mean the many sock puppets of Ms. Parker?

    By the way, it is August. In the northern hemisphere it is summer, and sometimes moderators with several children are probably busy with either a last chance vacation or the start of school. So just find some other blog to complain on.

  51. novalox says:


    Ah, the old pharma shill gambit, a sure sign that you have nothing of worth to contribute here.

  52. Kori says:

    Cry me a river Chris, it’s your loss.

  53. Kori says:

    novalox, you’re right, I have nothing to contribute here, but I was looking forward to your most useful comments. Darn,

  54. Chris says:

    “Cry me a river Chris, it’s your loss.”


    Why is it my loss when you are not able to complain or are banned.. again? As I have said before, Ms. Parker get some real psychiatric help. If not for yourself, but for your family. It is really in your child’s best interest.

  55. novalox says:


    And I was so looking forward to showing the world how utterly false your arguments were again, as well as having a laugh at your moral poverty.

  56. Kori says:

    Chris, ??? It is your loss as you will be losing money. Also, I think you are the one who needs help, I have no idea who Ms. Parker is, you must be delusional.

  57. Kori says:

    novalox, Moral poverty? You made me literally spit up my drink. Thank you for the laugh.

  58. Chris says:

    Kori: “Chris, ??? It is your loss as you will be losing money”

    How would I lose money? What are you talking about? The only person I know who gets paid for spamming comments is Anne Dachel. And I believe you know exactly about Ms. Parker.

    And if you are going to use the Pharma Shill Gambit, then you need to explain exactly how vaccination is a huge money maker for pharmaceutical companies compared to treating vaccine preventable diseases. Provide the verifiable economic data that it is cheaper to treat infants for pertussis or that paying for the one out of ten who need hospitalization for measles is cheaper than providing two MMR doses.

    Here are some references for you on the economic impacts of vaccines, so you need to prove them wrong:

    Economic Evaluation of the Routine Childhood Immunization Program in the United States, 2009

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States

  59. Chris says:

    Also see how much the 1990 measles epidemic cost the state of California:
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    Now explain how it makes more financial sense with to not vaccinate. Provide the PubMed indexed economic studies by qualified reputable researchers that it is cheaper to let kids get measles and pertussis, and other vaccine preventable diseases.

  60. Kori says:

    blah blah blah

  61. Chris says:

    So you have nothing. Good to know, because it confirms that it is better, cheaper and healthier to have children vaccinated.

    By the way, remember to thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate. They are assuring that your community’s immunity to diseases is high, and are protecting your family.

  62. Gray Falcon says:

    Bit of advice, Kori. If you want an honest debate, don’t libel your opponents by suggesting that they are paid for their comments.

  63. Kori says:

    My neighbors child was injured by a vaccine so I won’t be thanking him.

  64. Chris says:

    Uh, huh. Then provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that shows any vaccine causes more injuries then the disease. Prove to us that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

  65. novalox says:


    Thank you for admitting that I am more intellgent than you ca ever dream of being, and that you admit that vaccines are safe and can help to prevent VPDs.

    Also, thanks for showing again your moral poverty by continuing to make blatantly false accusations. I await your next ridiculous statement, just for the laughs.

  66. Kori says:

    Yes novalox, you are more “intellgent” than me. hahaha

    Chris, why don’t you prove to my neighbor that vaccines are safer than the disease. Go on and prove it to him. You don’t even know what vaccine it was. So, so arrogant.

  67. novalox says:


    Thank you for proving my point.

    And also, since you have not brought any proof for your assertions, we can all assume that any comments you make here are false unless proven otherwise,

    Your lack of marality was proven when you made libelous comments here about the regulars here being paid off, without any evidence, and when confronted with your lies, did not apologise but instead, made more false accusations.

    So, again, thanks for admitting that you are an arrogant person and that vaccines are safe and help to prevent VPDs.

  68. Kori says:

    You need serious help novalox. I will pray for you.

  69. novalox says:


    Stop assigning your mental issues to others, and start taking care of your own.

    Also, thanks for admitting that you need serious help for your mental problems.

    We are still waiting for your apology for your libel here, but guessing from your evasions and continuing lies, I’m not holding my breath.

  70. Chris says:

    “Chris, why don’t you prove to my neighbor that vaccines are safer than the disease”

    Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

    By the way your story is only one anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not data. This is why I asked you to provide the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that a vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease. Where is that evidence?

  71. Kori says:

    novalox you are either 12 years old or you do need help. I am suspecting it is the latter. Please, seek some help. You are delusional and/or can not communicate and have no comprehension skills. I will keep praying for you.

  72. Kori says:

    Chris, the plural of many anecdotes is data. You better wake up and start using some common sense. The evidence is all of the many vaccine injuries. That is the evidence. You can stick to your books and I’ll pay attention to what is happening in the real world.

  73. Emma says:

    Great comments, Kori! I agree, the plural of anecdotes is data and scientific reality, something that the regulars here will never admit. How do they think the scientific method is structured? Not on ideology but on the observation that when certain results follow certain events many times, you design a study and then respect the results. You don’t coast for decades on received wisdom and dogma, unless you’ve got a lot of money pushing you to do so. .

  74. Liza says:

    Dr. Parker is paid to do this? I’m sure she wishes that were true, but you’re actually projecting when you say that!

  75. Chris says:

    “I agree, the plural of anecdotes is data and scientific reality, something that the regulars here will never admit.”

    Because it is not true. And Ms. Parker has a mental illness, she really needs to get real help. If not for herself, but for her family.

    Now provide actual verifiable studies showing the vaccines cause more injury than the diseases, and the economic data that stopping vaccination would save money.

  76. Kori says:

    Emma, they don’t deal in reality here. If it’s not in that pub med study, it just ain’t true. Too bad they just can’t look around to see the reality.

  77. novalox says:


    Considering that you made libelous comments earlier, yet have not retracted them, as well as not showing evidence for your assertions, we can assume that you are lying to us again.

    But then again, thanks for admitting that I am more mature than you and that you yourself are delusional and need to seek mental health. Again, don’t assign your own mental issues on others and don’t denigrate those who actually need it.


    So, please post your evidence that supports kori’s comments within three posts, since she cannot support them and has been proven a liar, or we can assume that you are lying as well


    Ah, more projection, why am I not surprised.

  78. Chris says:

    ” If it’s not in that pub med study, it just ain’t true.”

    Actually there is lots indexed on PubMed that are not true. Some of them were written by Wakefield, Geier, Blaxill, etc. Which is why I also ask that the researchers be qualified (no lawyers or business professors) and reputable (have not had their medical privileges legally revoked, like Wakefield and Geier). PubMed is an index of publications, and restricting it to those that are on its list filters out nonsense like news reports, random unreferenced webpages and videos.

    So, Liza, Emma, Tori and the rest, just provide the evidence I ask for if you wish to be taken seriously. Until then you are just random strangers play on the internet.

    Liza asked: “Dr. Parker is paid to do this?”

    By the way no one on this comment thread made that claim about Ms. Parker. Also no one mentioned that Ms. Parker has a PhD in Spanish, which is true, but she would not be called “Dr” because of it. So Liza, why did you ask that question?

    And, please Ms. Parker get real psychiatric help. It would help your child so much more if you dealt with your very real medical issues.

  79. Kori says:

    You do need help novalox. I will spell it out for you since you are having trouble.
    You keep stating that I have “admitted” to things which I have not. I guess I should consider that libel. So I will either wait for your apology or assume you will get yourself some REAL help.

  80. Kori says:

    Chris, you also need help. You keep talking to Ms. Parker and she clearly is not in this conversation. You must be a very paranoid person. I don’t know what else to think.

    You claim to only look at the “good” studies, but now I understand you look at the studies that back up your view and then say the other studies are rubbish. You forgot to mention the fact that you don’t look at the evidence right in front of you, like my neighbor.

  81. Chris says:

    Please provide the PubMed index studies by qualified reputable researchers showing that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

  82. novalox says:


    Since you have not apologized for your libel, as well as continuing to post unsupported assertions, we can all assume that you are lying, and that you admit that you are the one to make an apology the the regulars here, as well as admitting that you need mental help.

    Again, don’t assign your mental issues to others, and don’t denigrate those who do.

    But thannks atain for admitting your moral poverty by not making an apology.

  83. Chris says:

    “You forgot to mention the fact that you don’t look at the evidence right in front of you, like my neighbor.”

    I can honestly say that if that neighbor does exist he/she is not sitting in front of me. Though if you link to the final ruling from his/her NVICP vaccine court case, that would be verifiable evidence. But it would be fairly weak since there are only 1300 compensated cases out of almost two billion vaccine doses since 2006.

    Now please provide actual verifiable evidence like PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

  84. Kori says:

    Chris, you sound like a broken record or worse a computer. I guess you can’t think for yourself and that is to bad. No matter what anybody says to you, you only reply, “Please provide the PubMed index studies by qualified reputable researchers showing that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.”
    Too bad you can’t think for yourself and think outside the box. It only shows you don’t have the mental capacity to have these sorts of discussions.

  85. Chris says:

    The only reason I repeat the question is because you do not provide an answer. If you want me to think for myself, answer the question with real data. Because all you do is tell us unverified stories and how we are meanies. So do something different and actually provide real evidence.

    If you think that is too much “inside the box”, then you might want to brush up on how science works by taking some beginning science classes at your local community college. Because that “box” is how we separate the real data from the fictional stories.

    Prove to us that DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Here are some examples of real evidence:
    Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease.

    Philosophic objection to vaccination as a risk for tetanus among children younger than 15 years

  86. Lawrence says:

    @Kori – again, you provide nothing but some story that someone told you (neighbor or not), so who here is equipped to have an intelligent discussion about vaccines? Certainly not you.

  87. Kori says:

    So sad you can’t think for yourself Chris.

  88. Kori says:

    On the contrary Lawrence, I don’t spit out the same old line over and over again without thinking. I can and do have intelligent conversations with people about vaccines. Unfortunately, the regulars here are incapable of such activities.
    Example: novalox and her delusional way of communicating. Chris with his/her non thinking capabilities and no listening skills, is like talking to a computer.

  89. Liza says:

    By Chris: “How would I lose money? What are you talking about? The only person I know who gets paid for spamming comments is Anne Dachel. And I believe you know exactly about Ms. Parker.”

  90. Chris says:

    So, yes, Ms. Dachel is paid as Age of Autism media editor (she spams comments with her cut and pastes). But Ms. Parker is not. And it is pretty clear who Ms. Parker is, especially since you all most likely know her very well. There is a reason she has been banned from this blog, several times due to her many sock puppets.

    Kori, I am not the one parroting the same old anti-vax tropes. I actually provide real evidence in my comments. I know how to look up studies, and read the table of NVICP compensations.

  91. novalox says:


    Simple, since you and you ilk keep spitting out the same old anti-vaccine tropes that have been disproven time and time again, we keep repeating the evidence that disproves it, yet your ilk are incapable of learning.

    But thanks for admitting that you cannot think for yourself and admit that the regulars here are more intelligent and communicative than you.

  92. Lawrence says:

    @Liza – Chris made a correct statement. Anne Dachel is very proud (obviously) that her efforts at spamming any and all vaccine articles (or autism articles for that matter) are paid for.

    And for Ms. Parker (who continues to show up here under multiple upon multiple aliases – using the exact same talking points), I’m sure you know exactly who she is.

  93. Dr. Gerrard. says:

    For those of you who DON’T know yet, a CDC whistleblower has come forward saying that data presented in a 2004 CDC study on the MMR and autism was deliberately manipulated to hide an elevated risk of autism in a significant segment of the population.

  94. Lawrence says:

    @Dr.Gerrad – just allegations & not even from this so-called whistleblowers own mouth at this point….no exactly what I would call reliable at this point.

    Not to mention just overall bad math skills on the part of the anti-vax people:

  95. Christine Vara says:

    Dr. Gerrard, While I respect your interest in discussing this topic, I would have to remind you and Lawrence that it is not relevant to the subject matter discussed in this post. The CDC will be responding to these allegations and at that time we will consider providing an appropriate place to comment. As a reminder, any further discussion of this topic will not be appropriate on this comment thread and may be removed per our comment policy. Thank you for your interest and participation.

  96. Lawrence says:

    My apologies Christine.

  97. Christine Vara says:

    No worries Lawrence. I realize that you were just responding to the allegations raised by “Dr. Gerrard”. It’s just that we don’t want this thread to run off course (more so that it already has.)

  98. jgc56 says:

    ““I agree, the plural of anecdotes is data and scientific reality, something that the regulars here will never admit.”

    Kori, Emma, may I take it that you’re completely convinced that estraterrestrials piloting faster-than-light interstellar vehicles routinely abduct human beings and perform medical procedures upon them (which seems to include an all but obligatory anal probing)?

    Because if the plural of anecdote IS data, there’s a whole lot more ‘data’ supporting alien abduction than there is supporting a causal association between routine vaccination and autism spectrum disorders…

  99. Emma says:

    And then there are the admissions of CDC men like Dr. Thompson about how the MMR and flu vaccines cause autism. Are they aliens?

    • jgc56 says:

      Except that Dr. thompson never said this. You can convince otherwise by providing a direct quote with attribution where Dr. Thompson states this.

      In the meantime, would you kindly answer the question I asked: do you believe it’s been factually established that extraterrestrials piloting faster-than-light interstellar vehicles routinely abduct human beings and perform medical procedures upon them?

      If the answer is “No, I don’t” or even “I don’t know, maybe”, please explain on what rational basis you embrace the anecdotal ‘evidence’ in support of vaccines causing autism spectrum disorders but reject the anecdotal ‘evidence’ in support of alien abduction.

  100. Lawrence says:

    @emma – that’s not what he said, unless you live in fantasyland.

  101. 21KW34RT99XG says:

    Not sure how he was misrepresented when his letter he sent to his bosses is all over the internet?
    He’s not happy about being recorder and ousted without his knowledge.

  102. jgc56 says:

    21KW#, what letter Thompson sent to his bosses [that] is all over the internet are you referring to here, and where exactly in the text of that letter does he indicate that the MMR and flu vaccines cause autism or that a cover-up is underway to conceal evidence demnstrating African American males vaccinated between 24 and 26 months are at an increased risk of developing autism?

    Direct quotes with attribution, please.

  103. jgc56 says:

    21KW, I don’t see any text in that letter indicating Thompson believes the MMR and flu vaccines cause autism, that the Destefano case control data demonstrates African American males vaccinated between 24 and 26 months are at an increased risk of developing autism, or that the CDC has actively attempted to conceal anything at all. All I see is text indicating concern over presenting the results of the study to a hostile audience, a request for direct support from Dr. Gerberding and a call for the CDC as a whole to be more proactive in communicating what he refers to as the “real scientific evidence” regarding vaccine safety and efficacy to the public.

    What text in this letter do you believe demonstrates Hooker and Wakefield have not misrepresented Thompson’s position and statements?

  104. Lawrence says:

    Just to keep from going further off-topic, this is a perfect example of the kind of anti-vaccine misinformation, misinterpretation and general lying that prevents a rational discussion about vaccines & vaccine safety.

  105. Emma says:

    Dr. Thompson said in the statement he released the other day, “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.”

  106. Lawrence says:

    @Emma – and then there is this:

    “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

  107. jgc56 says:

    I don’t see how that text supports a claim that Thomspson’s position has been misrepresented by Hooker and Wakefield. I don’t see it alleging a cover-up or arguing that the MMR and flu vacccines cause autism.

    But now that you’re back commenting, can you please answer the question regarding whether you accept as established fact that extraterrestrial aliens abduct human beings to secretly perform medical experiments/procedures upon them?

    I’m still at a loss to discern how you’re picking and choosing which anecdotal accounts you’ll consider to be ‘evidence’, and which you will not.

  108. jgc56 says:

    sorry–should read “that Thompson’s position has NOT been misrepresented”

  109. Pam Butler says:

    This is a wonderful site and I love this topic as it applies to a similar circumstance my daughter has encountered. I agree with Dr Zibners answer to the question and look forward to learning more about her and her book. I would like to share the circumstance surrounding my grandaughter who just turned 2 months and is getting her immunizations today. I’m hoping for some professional feedback on the merits of breastfeeding in protection of newborns… does the mother provide enough antibodies if the baby is exposed to pertussis?
    At about a month our precious girl went to her other grandparents where 3 other babies/small children (cousins) were present. Over a week ago everyone came down with a cold…even my grandaughter had the sniffles (well, lots of mucus according to my daughter). I saw her over the weekend and all was well, she seems perfectly healthy. The family contacted my daughter yesterday stating their kids had been exposed to pertussis directly from another family who doesn’t believe in vaccinations. It took several weeks for the diagnosis and contact by the health dept–the cousins are starting prophylaxis antibiotics even though they are current on immunizations. My daughter is so worried that our sweetie was exposed and may have latent conversion to a full blown case of pertussis. We have both been reading up on it and see the incubation period could be up to weeks before full blown symptoms. Could the “cold” be something more and it be brewing in our pumpkin? If so, will immunization today help stop progression…or does mother’s milk offer enough protection she should have no problem with second hand exposure. I hope this all makes sense. I wish I had the timeline down better. Thanks for any input…Pam

  110. Lawrence says:

    @Pam – best to consult with the child’s pediatrician. Breast feeding, though helpful, does have its limitations.

    Again, consult an expert. That should put you (and the baby) on the right course.

    Best of luck & Best wishes!

  111. Liza says:

    Breast feeding protects against many diseases the mother has had and recovered from, but for some reason not pertussis. Young infants should be kept away from anyone who might give them anything as much as possible. It wasn’t a good idea to let your granddaughter be around her cousins at this age, as you saw when they all got sick a week later.

  112. Chris says:

    Liza: “Breast feeding protects against many diseases the mother has had and recovered from, but for some reason not pertussis”

    And not for chicken pox. I know that from experience when my six month old breastfed baby caught it from one of her older brothers.

  113. lilady says:

    Typical troll stunt.

    – Nasty comment directed at another poster here.

    – Totally devoid of any information that is germane to the topic on this thread.

  114. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – I don’t see anything wrong with what JGC said, certainly nothing to merit your slanderous insult.

  115. Emma says:

    So Dr. Thompson said that the MMR caused autism in many thousands of black boys, but he also said that vaccines have saved many lives (view to keeping his job?). So that means that parents must do their own research and decide for themselves the risks they want to take. They have yet to do an honest study on vaccines causing autism. When they do, I’ll bet most parents would rather take their chances with measles, chickenpox, even pertussis, than autism.

  116. novalox says:


    Again, why would you put your children at risk for VPDs and autism (which wild-type measles, incedentially, can cause autisM), when vaccines have not been implicated at all?

    Where is your evidence?

  117. novalox says:


    Please show us the post(s) where jgc56 is acting “like a jerk”, because I don’t see any.

  118. Christine Vara says:

    Peggy’s comment has been removed. We urge all commenters to please refrain from name-calling.

  119. Emma says:

    Wild-type measles has never caused autism. Autism did not exist before vaccines, but measles did. The CDC manipulated and buried the fact that their own study showed that the MMR increased the risk of autism in black toddlers by 3.4 times. We all know chidren whose parents swear that their autism was caused by a vaccine. So, considering recent facts, who are you going to believe? The CDC or your neighbors? Measles is usually not that bad, and it used to be that everyone got it as a child. Again, you do what you want to with your children and let me do what I want to with mine. I’d rather they got wild-type measles.

  120. Lawrence says:

    @Emma – you know, none of what you just posted is true. I really wish anti-vaxers would stop being such blatant liars, as it contributes nothing to the conversation.

  121. Gray Falcon says:

    Emma, people have died from measles. And it used to be black people were kept as slaves. Just because it “used to be” that way doesn’t make it good or right.

  122. Emma says:

    And people have died and been permanently disabled by the MMR. Just because you think autism is preferable to measles doesn’t mean that all parents agree with you, which I assume is why they didn’t want to let black parents know of the increased risk for their sons.

  123. Gray Falcon says:

    Few, if any, died from MMR. Far more have died from measles. Do you have any evidence otherwise? Oh, and no anecdotes, I need real studies. Claiming that autism was caused by a vaccine because the symptoms appears shortly after vaccination is no more convincing than claims that seizures were caused by the “evil eye”.

    Also, we have strong evidence that autism existed well before the MMR vaccine was developed. Stories of changelings, for example. To suggest otherwise is utter nonsense. It’s fascinating, the life cycle of the conspiracy theory. At first, it just starts simple, a simple explanation that fits a few small holes in the official story. Then, research is done, the holes are plugged, and the theory grows in complexity. Eventually, it becomes something along the lines of “Of course it’s true! Once we find their time machine and holographic projector, everyone will know the truth!”

  124. Lawrence says:

    @Emma – another lie? You need to take your anti-vax blinders off……

  125. Emma says:

    On the one hand you demand studies, and on the other you claim that autism existed before vaccines based on old stories of fairy babies being left in cradles, the original babies taken to Fairy Land under a hill? That’s strong evidence? While the statistics of the study Dr. Thompson admitted had been manipulated and concealed do not count as strong evidence for you? Is that the best you can do?

  126. Gray Falcon says:

    Emma, the “changelings” described were near-identical to autistic infants. The rest of the story is simply people ascribing the cause to supernatural forces. If you want to be taken more seriously than a fairy tale, you will provide real evidence.

  127. Liza says:

    Gray Falcon,
    Infants cannot be diagnosed with autism. The earliest age is 18 months, when they should be walking, talking, and socializing, but aren’t. In what way do you think changelings were nearly identical to autistic children? More important is the fact that there was no description of such children after the Age of Enlightenment began, with its method of scientific observation. Dr. Kanner said in 1943 that it was so distinctive and unusual a condition, that if it had existed before, someone somewhere would have described it, but no one ever had. The tome Dr. Kanner and his colleagues at John Hopkins cooperated in compiling, Childhood Psychiatry, 1935, described every childhood mental condition ever appearing anywhere, yet mentioned nothing even suggesting autism. Are you going to mention the institutionalized deaf-mute children two hundred years ago, who had not acquired language because they were deaf? Do you have written records of changelings who reversed pronouns, engaged in echolalia, flapped their hands or arms, walked on their toes all the time, spun in circles, and were permanently unable to use language normally? I thought not. And you call yourself scientific?

  128. Gray Falcon says:

    Liza, do you have a source for your claims? Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. For a long time, people believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Did Copernicus physically change the solar system, or did he just observe what nobody else saw?

  129. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, if you’re going to pick a source, do so with at least marginal intelligence. Kanner wrote the paper that defined the word “autism”, twenty full years before the MMR vaccine was developed:

    So, now all I need is a photograph of the CDC’s time machine, if you please.

  130. Liza says:

    Give me a break, Falcon. Autism is a kind of brain damage that can be caused by either mercury in vaccines or vaccine encephalitis. One of Kanner’s original cohort from the late ’30s had autism from having reacted to the smallpox vaccine (no mercury, just vaccine encephalitis). The others had been exposed to mercury either in the diphtheria vaccine after 1933 or mercury-containing fungicides. At least two ways to cause it, possibly more.

  131. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – not only that, but if mercury was the cause of autism, we would have seem much, much more of it back in the days before the EPA and President Johnson’s push to clean up the environment….

    Emma / Liza (probably the same person) seem to conveniently forget that tens of thousands of people were routinely institutionalized – many of whom today would have been considered autistic.

    History is not their friend.

  132. Gray Falcon says:

    Emma, any evidence for your claim about the autistic children’s vaccination status? Because nothing like that was noted in the paper. At all.

  133. Lawrence says:

    @Liza – another lie, I see. Brain damage is easy to identify – which isn’t autism.

    Hello again Ms. Parker.

  134. Gray Falcon says:

    I think Liza is getting her history from the libertarian history books: The ones where there was no pollution, food was healthy, and medicine was perfectly safe, until the government intervened.

  135. Liza says:

    Gray Falcon,

    You’re talking about the 2004 study? Black boys vaccinated before the age of 3 had a 3.4 higher chance of having autism. They did have their vaccination records. They disappeared a lot of them by demanding birth certificates with information like the mothers’ educational level, which has never been on Georgia birth certificates given to parents (not on birth certificates in most other states either, it was just chicanery to throw out incriminating evidence).

    Autism is brain damage, and it is easy to identify. That’s why autism isn’t diagnosed based on any clinical tests but only on checking off a behavioral checklist. When mercury is the cause of autism, it nearly always has to be injected into the body to do so.

    So why did had no neurologist or psychologist or psychiatrist as of 1935 say that he had ever seen autism? Not a single one. Ever. Anywhere. Not in institutions, not anywhere else, not until vaccines. Not in the Middle Ages, not in ancient Rome, not in ancient Egypt. It didn’t exist before vaccines. The unvaccinated Amish have no Kanner’s autism, what we mean when we speak of autism.

  136. Gray Falcon says:

    No, Liza, I’m talking about the 1943 paper. Can you even keep track of this conversation?

  137. Gray Falcon says:

    “So why did had no neurologist or psychologist or psychiatrist as of 1935 say that he had ever seen autism?”
    Simple, they said they saw infantile schizophrenia. Before then, it was changelings. Before that, demon possession.

  138. Peggy Lyons says:

    Liza, what these people fail to realize is that “regressive” autism is not autism at all, it is toxic over load and vaccines can be the tipping point.

  139. novalox says:


    [citation needed] for your claims, since it flies against actual science.

  140. Peggy Lyons says:

    It doesn’t fly against actual science. On the contrary, science completely backs it up. Ever heard of heavy metals staying in the body and brain? That causes a lot of issues and those issues cause a lot of symptoms,which then also cause health issues similar to what people call autism. There is plenty of science showing what high levels of heavy metals in the body and brain do to a person.

  141. Chris says:

    Ms. Lyons, what heavy metals? Which ones are in vaccines on the American vaccine schedule? Please provide references that show that there are none available without these “heavy” metals.

  142. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – then please define “high levels of heavy metals”

    Not to mention, how does one “accumulate” these high levels today when there aren’t “any” heavy metals in any vaccine on the US Pediatric Schedule?

  143. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy / Emma / Liza – if you had any actual evidence to back up your claims, you should provide it…though I will warn her, posting anything related to the Geiers will (for obvious reasons) get you laughed back out of the room.

    For those actual science-minded folks:

  144. Gray Falcon says:

    Another rule of Conspiracy theorists: None ever learn even the basics of the subjects they expound on. It’s the “fire cannot melt steel rule”. Consider the following quotes, all by Lisa

    “Dr. Kanner said in 1943 that it was so distinctive and unusual a condition, that if it had existed before, someone somewhere would have described it, but no one ever had.”
    This statement does not appear in any way, shape, or form in Kanner’s paper. If anyone can tell otherwise, please read this and point to the exact page number:

    “Do you have written records of changelings who reversed pronouns, engaged in echolalia, flapped their hands or arms, walked on their toes all the time, spun in circles, and were permanently unable to use language normally?”
    This is not the definition of autism. I have seen numerous autistic individuals who do not do any of those things. Stereotypes, in the mind of Liza, are a perfect substitute for facts.

    “That’s why autism isn’t diagnosed based on any clinical tests but only on checking off a behavioral checklist.”
    And she doesn’t even know basic psychiatry. That’s how every such condition is diagnosed.

    “So why did had no neurologist or psychologist or psychiatrist as of 1935 say that he had ever seen autism? Not a single one. Ever. Anywhere. Not in institutions, not anywhere else, not until vaccines. Not in the Middle Ages, not in ancient Rome, not in ancient Egypt. It didn’t exist before vaccines.”
    Nobody used the word psychopathy before the year 1847, but there are numerous historical figures who could definitely be listed as psychopaths. Just because the word doesn’t exist doesn’t mean the concept doesn’t exist.

    Clearly, Liza and her ilk need to study more before they comment here again.

  145. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – we now know that people contracted and most likely died of AIDS as early as the 1940s & 1950s, for example. Just because no one bothered to name a particular condition or recognized it as such, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

    Cancer wasn’t recognized in Ancient Egypt – but we know that people died from it, because we’ve found it in Mummies.

    And, because people with disabilities – especially in cases like those with autism, would have been shunned or shuttered away into private or government-run institutions pretty much up until the 1960s (here in the US, for instance) and general mental disabilities were grouped under very large umbrella definitions (which I won’t state here, because the names used are incredibly offensive) – meant that large numbers of people that we would consider autistic today spent their entire lives in institutions.

    You also ignore the fact that the umbrella of autism diagnoses also covers a huge range – up until recently, it also included a large number of individuals with Aspbergers as well.

  146. Gray Falcon says:

    @Lawrence- “You also ignore the fact that the umbrella of autism diagnoses also covers a huge range” I think that should be directed towards Liza, who I was quoting.

    I’m wondering if there is a case of autism being overdiagnosed. Back when my younger brother was in grade school, a teacher diagnosed him with behavioral problems because when coloring in a US flag, he switched partway from blue to purple. My mother pointed out that he was colorblind.

  147. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – there is a real question right now if we are, in fact, over-diagnosing autism. Development disabilities have always been around, but with the shift in funding from one set of criteria to another, it actually pays for parents to get a diagnosis of autism, if only to get access to additional resources in the educational environment.

    Not that parents are “diagnosis-shopping” but there are plenty of stories from parents of children on the borderline who are encouraged to seek an autism label, just so that their child gets the help they need in school.

    The most severe autistics, who represent a much smaller population of the total autistic population, would have, in the past, been institutionalized and out of sight – and not somewhat mainstreamed, as we see today.

  148. Peggy Lyons says:

    Kids are tested and have large amounts of the ingredients that are found in vaccines in their bodies. They can not detox these ingredients and that causes huge health issues with their bodies and brain. It’s really not that hard to understand.

  149. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy, the issue isn’t that it’s “hard to understand”, it’s that it’s completely and utterly wrong. If kids are being tested, why haven’t you posted the results?

  150. Peggy Lyons says:

    There are also a huge amount of parents who don’t get “official” diagnoses of Autism due to insurance reasons. I know many parents with children on the spectrum that have paid cash for diagnosis as to keep off official record and insurance.

  151. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, if a child cannot “detox” a miniscule amount of a substance from a vaccine, how do they somehow survive eating, drinking, and breathing? A simple scrape exposes the body to any number of things in dirt and the air through the bloodstream, so don’t say that it’s because vaccines are injected.

  152. Peggy Lyons says:

    Very easy to find out Gray Falcon. If you were involved in the Autism community I guess you could find out all you wanted. Are you trying to say that kids are not tested and there are no results showing them with high levels of the ingredients in vaccines?

  153. Peggy Lyons says:

    They don’t survive well, they have autism.

  154. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy, I am autistic. Standard blood tests have been done, no such toxins have been found, not by honest laboratories. Same with several of my autistic friends. And apologize for saying “They don’t survive well, they have autism.”, I am very much alive and not in pain!

  155. Gray Falcon says:

    Now tell me, Peggy, if you were involved in the Autism community, why did you not say anything to Liza for her cruel and hateful stereotyping of autistic people?

  156. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – Gray has an excellent point. People (in general) ingest “toxins” all the time….if these kids can’t detox as you describe – not only would it be obvious / blatant, but these kids wouldn’t be autistic, they would be dead.

    Your “facts” don’t fit the available evidence – not in the slightest.

  157. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, the testing “labs” that Peggy likely used are not known for their integrity. The fact that they turn up far more toxins than could possibly have been injected with vaccines in the first place should raise a few eyebrows.

  158. Lawrence says:

    @Gray – another example of “spontaneous” replication of heavy metals within the human body, which is biologically impossible.

  159. Peggy Lyons says:

    Gray Falcon, Just because you have Autism and don’t have those issues proves absolutely nothing. You may have had autism since birth or possibly you don’t even have autism, it means nothing.
    I have nothing to apologize for, if you think not being able to talk and communicate, control yourself and shit in your diapers is surviving well, you are sorely mistaken! To say all of those Testing Labs are in on it is absolutely hilarious and desperate on your part.

    Lawrence, Not sure what you are talking about, please explain why each of these kids should be dead rather than autistic? Again, you have nothing, so just making up whatever you can think of. It’s like saying, you got hit by this car and all you got was this broken leg, you should be dead. Nonsense.

  160. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – since you don’t really understand the biological processes of which you speak (quite frankly, it is embarrassing that you lack even the most basic understandings of biology), I’ll put it in extremely simple terms:

    1) You claim that these children cannot process / excrete “toxins” & also claim that the ingredients in vaccines are “toxic” thus accumulate in these kids’ bodies.

    2) If true & since people “ingest” what you would consider to be “toxins” on a daily basis – from a variety of sources (including food, the air we breath, etc), these children would quickly accumulate amounts of these “toxins” that would quickly prove fatal to them.

    Again, what you describe has no biological plausibility. Good read a good Science textbook – perhaps it will help.

    And again –

  161. Peggy Lyons says:

    Lawrence, I know the facts, which are that many, many kids with Autism do have high levels of vaccine ingredients in their systems. FACT.
    And yes, of course, other environmental factors do contribute, food, air, etc.
    If you don’t think severe autism is fatal, you have no idea what you are talking about. Some of these kids can do absolutely NOTHING. I do consider that fatal, it’s too bad you don’t.

  162. Lawrence says:

    @peggy – you may be entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

    Reality has a very pro-vaccine bias.

    And my link of peer-reviewed science on vaccine safety trumps you YouTube video….hands-down.

  163. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy: “I have nothing to apologize for, if you think not being able to talk and communicate, control yourself and shit in your diapers is surviving well, you are sorely mistaken!”
    Most autistic people are not like that, and you know it. You disgusting filth, how dare you spread such hatred like this. Leave. Now. And never return. Ever!

  164. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – don’t you find it interesting that those same labs that test for “heavy metals” are the same ones that are more than happy to provide you with “de-tox” treatments?

    I find that suspiciously like a major conflict of interest. Not to even mention that those same tests routinely give false-positive results, due to the process of leeching additional metals from the blood (some of them are in fact vital to metabolic processes).

    Here is a link to a bunch of chelation quackery – which you seem to be very much a part of:

    As to your other comment, which Gray has rightly called you on – the fact that you can talk about autistic children (a small subset of those who are given the diagnosis) shows that you are no friend of autistics in general…..a lot of adults with Autism would like to have a word with you.

  165. Peggy Lyons says:

    Not my opinion, many children with Autism do in fact have high levels of vaccine ingredients – FACT.
    BTW, the lab testing we did had nothing to do with any treatments; they are only lab, so you are wrong and misinformed AGAIN. And as a matter of fact, the same lab also gave us the results of normal levels after detox. Your conspiracy story is only that, a conspiracy.

    Gray Falcon, Not sure what your problem is. I stated the fact, which is my child and many others are exactly as I described. And yes, I know many, many like that. Way to many, and it doesn’t have to be that way. It is BS that this keeps happening!

  166. Peggy Lyons says:

    BTW, Gray Falcon, I noticed you broke the rules of conduct here by attacking me. You are the one who should be banned!

  167. Peggy Lyons says:

    Also, never done any chelation therapy Lawrence, so you ASSumed wrong again.

  168. Lawrence says:

    @Peggy – then you would be prepared to submit peer-reviewed literature to back up that “fact” wouldn’t you?

    Lab testing for heavy metals is chock-full of nuts, charlatans & con-men:

  169. Gray Falcon says:

    Perhaps I was wrong to call Peggy filth. I just cleaned off a stain from my sock, and it made no attempt to suggest that I could not talk or was still in diapers.

    That’s right, Peggy. Your statement was a direct insult towards me.

  170. Gray Falcon says:

    Also, Peggy Lyons is probably going to try to claim these studies are done by people who are just in it for the money.

    So tell me, Peggy Lyons, what’s your price?

  171. Peggy Lyons says:

    OMG, absolutely nothing you have presented Lawrence, has anything to do with disproving that certain kids with autism have high levels of the vaccine ingredients in their little bodies. I don’t personally have access to medical records, so no I cannot provide you proof. I can tell you I spent two weeks at the Autism Treatment Center of America and met 200 plus families with children with varying conditions I have described. If you were actually involved in the autism community you would know.

    Gray Falcon, I have no idea why you were offended. I should be the one who is offended. You try and play it off like autism is no big deal and there are no severe consequences or issues. Wake up, there are many children with autism that are in dyer straights, if you are unaware of this fact, then I highly doubt you have autism, or you just don’t care. Lawrence had suggested that if kids really had issues with detoxing they would be dead, how he comes to that conclusion makes no sense to me, but the point was that these children are in bad shape and no they are not doing well.

  172. Peggy Lyons says:

    BTW, Lawrence, the kids are not autistic, they have autism, they are children, with autism, not the other way around. Wonder why Gray Falcon isn’t insulted for calling him/her by his/her condition? Are people with Cancer, Canceristic?

  173. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy, I know several people with autism. Most of them are not like you say they are. You don’t deal in facts, you deal in fear and stereotypes. And for what? To sell chelation products, perhaps?

    I do consider myself autistic. To remove my autism, you would have to destroy the better part of my personality. To “cure” me would be to effectively kill me, or destroy my soul.

  174. Peggy Lyons says:

    Gray, I never said anything about curing you, obviously you are fine and I am glad.
    I deal in fear and stereotypes? Tell that to my child Gray. So you are in denial of the dyer situation of many of these children? I posted a link above, why don’t you watch over 200 parents talking about their children with autism and then tell me I don’t deal in facts?
    Also, I have never done any chelation and never said anything about chelation, so again you are flat wrong.

  175. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy, I’m not in denial. I’ve worked with several autistic adults. I know that not every autistic child grows up to be what you describe, nor even the majority of them. Your child can and will improve, if you let him.

    If I went back in time, I could find two hundred cases of people claiming wicked fairies made their wine sour, but than does not change Pasteur’s findings. Numerous people heard “The War of the Worlds” on the radio and thought aliens were invading (probably not as many as thought, but still). Two hundred people in a video is not science, it’s mass hysteria.

    Insisting that I am a “person with autism”, rather that an “autistic person”, implies that autism is something that can be removed without damaging the whole. I never accused you of wanting to cure me, only of failing to understand me.

  176. Peggy Lyons says:

    Lawrence, I have no idea what you are going on about, just looks like you are trying to change the subject of the conversation.

    Gray, I would say you are in denial if you think there aren’t hundreds and hundreds of kids just as I described. Take a trip to the Autism Treatment Center of America and spend a couple of weeks. They will let you come and help if you would like. Every week they get between 100 to 150 people from all over the world with kids just as I described. You think I should just let my kid be allergic to 32 foods? You think I should just allow my kids to scream through the night with gut pain? I could go on and on, you think I should just leave him alone and allow things to happen huh? You truly are out of touch with what is happening and anybody who would sit back and “allow” all of this to happen would be going straight to you know where. You really should get more involved and be an advocate if you want to help. Go to ATCA and see what is happening and offer your solutions to them. I am sure they would appreciate it from someone with autism.

  177. Lawrence says:

    @peggy – biomedical quackery does nothing for autism.

    You are being conned.

  178. Peggy Lyons says:

    With what specifically Lawrence?

  179. Gray Falcon says:

    Peggy, autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis. Children with autism do improve, in their own way. A great many “treatment”‘s success rate is simply from crediting a child’s improvements to the treatment, in the same way leeches were credited from curing diseases back in the Middle Ages.

    “You think I should just let my kid be allergic to 32 foods? You think I should just allow my kids to scream through the night with gut pain?” That isn’t autism, that’s an entirely separate issue. I never spoke against helping your child, only against wasting time doing things that don’t work. Places like the ATCA take time and money away that can be spent on therapy that works., and give only false hope in return. Popularity doesn’t make them right, look how many people bought into Ponzi.

  180. Gray Falcon says:

    A bit (or very) off topic, animal-assisted therapy can be very effective. I learned more from a few weeks with my uncle’s pet Labrador than I did with several years of psychologists.

  181. Lawrence says:

    Well, Peggy has taken us way off-topic here – back to the Science:

    While vaccines are safe and effective, a three-week old is too young to have received many vaccines at all, so it pays to err on the side of caution when exposing the baby to people that may be unvaccinated.

  182. lilady says:

    Lawrence, a three-week-old baby would have only received the first hepatitis B vaccine.

  183. jgc56 says:

    Peggy, your evidence establishing the all-caps FACT that “many, many kids with Autism do have high levels of vaccine ingredients in their systems” would be what, exactly?

    For that matter, let’s try to be a bit more precise: what proportion of all children with autism spectrum disorders does “many, many” equate to?

    Which vaccine ingredients, specifically, are present at high levels in these children?

    How has it factually established that the source of these ingredients could only be the vaccines the chldren received?

  184. Jersey Time says:

    Doesn’t cover much.

  185. lilady says:

    You are still off-topic. How about staying on topic and providing your opinion about taking a three week old infant to a family reunion?

  186. Jersey Time says:

    Vaccines are on topic on a vaccine site aren’t they? What else do ya’all talk about on here?

    My opinion is at 3 weeks old you should stay close to home for a little while.

  187. Lawrence says:

    Good opinion “Jersey” – your other posts are off the topic of the article they are posted upon. If you have something to add under that particular subject, I would recommend staying at AoA.

  188. Jersey Time says:

    What is AOA?
    Are you the owner of this site?

  189. Jersey Time says:

    I thought the site was called Shot of Prevention, is that not talking about shots, as in vaccinations? How could talking about vaccines be off topic?

  190. Lawrence says:

    The “information” you posted is in no way related to the article you posted on, hence it is off-topic and not appropriate.

  191. Jersey Time says:

    What is AOA? Are you the owner of this site lawrence? I thought the topic was vaccines? I am so confused.

  192. Gray Falcon says:

    Jersey, the topic is the article you’re posting to, which is “Should I Take My Three-Week Old to the Family Reunion?”. Vaccines in general is the topic of this blog, but you are commenting on a specific post, so yes, it is off-topic.

  193. Jersey Time says:

    Wow,very critical aren’t you? I can’t just talk about vaccines? Very strange site indeed.

  194. Lawrence says:

    Pick an appropriate article and make your comment there….your current crop of comments don’t belong on this article.

  195. Gray Falcon says:

    Jersey, that’s how pretty much every weblog on the Internet works. Comments are about the article being commented on. How daft can you possibly be?

  196. Jersey Time says:

    You are very rude GRAY FALCON!

  197. Jersey Time says:

    Why, you are lilady.

  198. Anon Unheard says:

    Jersey, you realize that your attitude towards lilady and Gray Falcon is just as rude as they supposedly are towards you.

    Also, I noticed that the people with science on their side (the ones in favor of vaccines) are mainly calm, and use facts and reliable citations to explain. Meanwhile, the antivaxxers are rude and use unreliable “citations” (like AOA, whale, etc) to try and “win” arguments.

    Note that that may not be a fact, it’s just my observation.

    • lilady says:

      Back on topic. The California Department of Public Health has (current to September 2, 2014), cases of pertussis that have been reported, including the numbers of hospitalizations for infants, and, sadly the deaths of infants due to pertussis:

      I am aware of how vulnerable a very young infant is to contracting pertussis and that awareness is what I based my opinion on (upthread) about exposing a three week old infant to multiple contacts at a family reunion.

    • lilady says:

      I believe you are mistaken about the time the MMR vaccine is administered. It is administered after the first birthday. Children who travel out of the United States and who are traveling to a measles-endemic country should receive one MMR vaccine if they are between 6-12 months of age. Those children will still require the 2-dose MMR vaccine series, administered at one year of age for the first dose and may receive the second dose 28 days after the first dose. The usual timing for the second MMR is before school entry.

      Please refrain from discussing that study. There are plenty of science blogs with open threads where you may post your comments about that study.

  199. Jersey Time says:

    Is that right Anon. Please show me where I was rude to Gray Falcon or lilday before they insulted me.

    Also, I have no idea what AOA is and have asked several times.

    Science is on both sides of the issue Anon.

  200. Anon Unheard says:

    September 6, 2014 at 12:25 am
    You are very rude GRAY FALCON!

    September 5, 2014 at 8:06 pm
    Wow,very critical aren’t you? I can’t just talk about vaccines? Very strange site indeed.

    September 5, 2014 at 4:23 pm
    Vaccines are on topic on a vaccine site aren’t they? What else do ya’all talk about on here?
    My opinion is at 3 weeks old you should stay close to home for a little while.

    AOA is Age of Autism, an anti-vax site.

  201. Anon Unheard says:

    I apologize for going off-topic.

  202. Jersey Time says:

    Anon,yes I called Gray Falcon rude after he was condescending and called me daft. The other comments were questions about the site because I was confused and people were being rude.
    What specifically was rude about my opinion on 3 week olds?
    If you can’t see that these guys treat people like garbage then I would say you must be buddies with them.

  203. Jersey Time says:

    Back on topic, because I am aware of how vulnerable a young 3 week old african american boy is,especially to the MMR vaccine. I wouldn’t recommend that 3 week old african american boys get the mmr vaccine or go to the family reunion. It would be best to stay at home.

  204. Anon Unheard says:

    I must have accidentally highlighted the third passage by mistake. I apologize for that mistake.

    In addition, I don’t consider myself one of their “buddies”, as you would say. I’ve just done my research, and (in my opinion) I’ve decided that any kids I may have will be vaccinated.

    Now, as to the topic, I’d probably stay home and let my family know that I’m sorry I couldn’t make it.

  205. Jersey Time says:

    I would agree with you Anon.

  206. Jersey Time says:

    I would not agree with you lilday, but of course that is all I can say as I don’t want to go off topic.

  207. Lawrence says:

    @Jersey – I’m ignoring your attempt to shoe-horn in an anti-vax screed into your comments on this thread & I’ll merely point out that a three-week old baby has only received their HepB vaccine (which doesn’t contain Thimerosal anymore – hasn’t for more than a decade, thank you very much) and won’t receive their MMR or other vaccines for a while longer yet – still better, if you know that there might be anti-vaccine or non-vaccinated individuals at the reunion, to keep the baby at home, just in case.

    The anti-vaccine militia has made public gatherings chancy with babies and small children – so better to be safe than sorry – or ask that everyone get up to date on their vaccines before the reunion takes place.

  208. Lawrence says:

    Because we never rely upon a single study or an interpretation of a study to based our decisions on….we look at the totality of the evidence, which overwhelmingly favors vaccines over exposing our children to potentially deadly diseases.

  209. Jersey Time says:

    lawrence, I never said anything about Thimerosal, and btw, fyi, the MMR vaccine has NEVER had Thimerosal in it. You obviously need to read the ingredients.

  210. Lawrence says:

    @Jersey – the anti-vax militia don’t know the difference.

    And the science has been done on the MMR, despite what you may claim.

  211. Lawrence says:

    @Jersey – you haven’t “said” anything of substance at all.

  212. Jersey Time says:

    What happened to staying on topic lawrence? If I didn’t know better I would say you are baiting me. Don’t worry I’m sure the owner of the site doesn’t care when you go off of topic. Gotta go, I’m late for my militia meeting.

  213. jgc56 says:

    Sorry, can’t let this pass without comment:

    “Science is on both sides of the issue Anon.”

    This simply sin’t true: there is no scientific evidence which supports the notion that routine childhood vaccination is neither safe nor effective (or more accurately that the risks associated with being vaccinated exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against).

    There is no scientific evidence demonstrating that exposure to thimerosal, or aluminum, or squalene, or formaldehyde, of any other ingreident found in vaccine formaulations is harmful at levels of exposure achievable by vacination.

    There is no scientific evidence indicating that vaccination is causally asociated with the development of autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, diabetes, food allergies, etc.

    In short, the ‘science is on both sides” with respect to vacine safety to exactly the same extnet that it’s on both sides with resepct to an evolutionary origin ofobserved biological diverstiy and special creation as described in Genesis.

  214. Carrie G says:

    I agree Joe! jgc must be living on a different planet.

    • jgc56 says:

      Direct challenge then Joel, Carey:

      Provide scientific evidence demonstrating:

      that routine childhood vaccination does not reduce a child’s risk of contracting an infectious disease

      that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against

      that exposure to thimerosal, or aluminum, or squalene, or formaldehyde, of any other ingredient found in vaccine formulations is harmful at levels of exposure achievable by vaccination

      that routine childhood vaccination is causally asociated with the development of autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, diabetes, food allergies, etc.

      And no, carrie: we DON’T know there’s way too much to post here, since you haven’t attempted to post any of it.

  215. Lawrence says:

    @Carrie – what color is the sky on your planet? It sure isn’t blue like ours is….

    Reality has a pro-science bias.

  216. Carrie G says:

    To say there have been no scientific studies on any of the downfalls of vaccine’s could only be called delusional.

  217. Lawrence says:

    Then cite it, preferably by some who hasn’t lost their license to practice medicine.

  218. Carrie G says:

    Really, way too much to post here. You know it and I know, there is plenty of science on the risks and levels of effectiveness of vaccines.

  219. Lawrence says:

    Then pick one – the best citation you have….we already know that vaccines are not 100% effective nor 100% safe, though they are magnitudes safer than the diseases they prevent.

    I have these :

    So, show me yours, if you can.

  220. Carrie G says:

    Joel and Carey? You can’t even get two names right, or pay any attention to details. I wouldn’t consider you a reliable source at this point, jgc.

    • jgc56 says:

      Sorry if auto-correct took exception to joe and carrie. That said, I’ll have to interpret your decision to complaint about typo’s rather than respond substantively to my post as an implicit admission you are unable to.

  221. Carrie G says:

    You think I am falling for that lawrence? The moment I start posting links, you’ll have me kicked off for going “off topic.” Yes, I have read the above comments and I know what you are about.

  222. Gray Falcon says:

    Jersey Time posted the links without prompting, he was off topic. Since there is no reasonable explanation for you to refuse to provide evidence that could potentially save children’s lives, I can only assume you are either lying, or consider your pride more valuable than human life.

  223. jgc56 says:

    Did it again! I swear I typed complain, not complaint…

  224. Lawrence says:

    @Carrie – thank you for admitting that you have no evidence to provide.

    You made the assertion (which was off-topic to begin with) & I asked a very reasonable question.

    If you can’t be reasonable, than you have no place at the table for any part of the discussion.

  225. novalox says:


    Since you refuse to answer the question posed of you and instead resort to insults, we can assume that you have no evidence to support your assertions.

  226. Gray Falcon says:

    Even more baffling is Carrie’s excuse. She complains, as Jersey Time did, about how we demand comments be on topic. How can anyone think such a basic and obvious rule be arbitrary? Is she just trying to play the victim?

  227. Anon Unheard says:

    I’m glad that the science is on the side of those who vaccinate. Vaccines protect people from the harm that quite a few diseases cause.

  228. Lawrence says:

    @Anon – very much so. And back to the topic at hand, if you are aware of unvaccinated or anti-vax individuals at the reunion, I would keep the baby away (or “suggest” that everyone get up to date on their shots first).

  229. Anne says:

    Hi Carrie:
    Maybe this will help.

    1. Metabolic biomarkers of increased oxidative stress and impaired methylation capacity in children with autism

    American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 80, No. 6, 1611-1617, December 2004

    Department of Pediatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, and the Arkansas Children’s Hospital Research Institute

    Background: Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental disorder that usually presents in early childhood and that is thought to be influenced by genetic and environmental factors. Although abnormal metabolism of methionine and homocysteine has been associated with other neurologic diseases, these pathways have not been evaluated in persons with autism.

    Objective: The purpose of this study was to evaluate plasma concentrations of metabolites in the methionine transmethylation and transsulfuration pathways in children diagnosed with autism.

    Design: Plasma concentrations of methionine, S-adenosylmethionine (SAM), S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), adenosine, homocysteine, cystathionine, cysteine, and oxidized and reduced glutathione were measured in 20 children with autism and in 33 control children. On the basis of the abnormal metabolic profile, a targeted nutritional intervention trial with folinic acid, betaine, and methylcobalamin was initiated in a subset of the autistic children.

    Results: Relative to the control children, the children with autism had significantly lower baseline plasma concentrations of methionine, SAM, homocysteine, cystathionine, cysteine, and total glutathione and significantly higher concentrations of SAH, adenosine, and oxidized glutathione. This metabolic profile is consistent with impaired capacity for methylation (significantly lower ratio of SAM to SAH) and increased oxidative stress (significantly lower redox ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione) in children with autism. The intervention trial was effective in normalizing the metabolic imbalance in the autistic children.

    Conclusions: An increased vulnerability to oxidative stress and a decreased capacity for methylation may contribute to the development and clinical manifestation of autism.

    2. Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: Implications for environmental toxicity

    Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 2006

    Robert Natafa, Corinne Skorupkab, Lorene Ametb, Alain Lama, Anthea Springbettc and Richard Lathed, aLaboratoire Philippe Auguste, Paris, France, Association ARIANE, Clichy, France, Department of Statistics, Roslin Institute, Roslin, UK, Pieta Research,

    This new study from France utilizes a new and sophisticated measurement for environmental toxicity by assessing porphyrin levels in autistic children. It provides clear and unequivocal evidence that children with autism spectrum disorders are more toxic than their neurotypical peers.

    Excerpt: “Coproporphyrin levels were elevated in children with autistic disorder relative to control groups…the elevation was significant. These data implicate environmental toxicity in childhood autistic disorder.”

    Abstract: To address a possible environmental contribution to autism, we carried out a retrospective study on urinary porphyrin levels, a biomarker of environmental toxicity, in 269 children with neurodevelopmental and related disorders referred to a Paris clinic (2002–2004), including 106 with autistic disorder. Urinary porphyrin levels determined by high-performance liquid chromatography were compared between diagnostic groups including internal and external control groups. Coproporphyrin levels were elevated in children with autistic disorder relative to control groups. Elevation was maintained on normalization for age or to a control heme pathway metabolite (uroporphyrin) in the same samples. The elevation was significant (P < 0.001). Porphyrin levels were unchanged in Asperger's disorder, distinguishing it from autistic disorder. The atypical molecule precoproporphyrin, a specific indicator of heavy metal toxicity, was also elevated in autistic disorder (P < 0.001) but not significantly in Asperger's. A subgroup with autistic disorder was treated with oral dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA) with a view to heavy metal removal. Following DMSA there was a significant (P = 0.002) drop in urinary porphyrin excretion. These data implicate environmental toxicity in childhood autistic disorder.

    3. Uncoupling of ATP-mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated IL-6 Secretion in Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal

    Environmental Health Perspectives, July 2006.

    Samuel R. Goth, Ruth A. Chu Jeffrey P. Gregg

    This study demonstrates that very low-levels of Thimerosal can contribute to immune system disregulation.

    Excerpt: "Our findings that DCs primarily express the RyR1 channel complex and that this complex is uncoupled by very low levels of THI with dysregulated IL-6 secretion raise intriguing questions about a molecular basis for immune dyregulation and the possible role of the RyR1 complex in genetic susceptibility of the immune system to mercury."

    4. Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

    Environmental Health Perspectives, Aug 2005.

    Thomas Burbacher, PhD [University of Washington].

    This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in the brain, but leaves double the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in fish. This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury, and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is the "safe kind." This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of Medicine's recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism connection.

    Excerpt: "A recently published IOM review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation [of studying mercury and autism] as well as back away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal [of removing mercury from vaccines]. This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants."

  230. Anne says:

    6. Increases in the number of reactive glia in the visual cortex of Macaca fascicularis following subclinical long-term methyl mercury exposure.

    Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 1994

    Charleston JS, Bolender RP, Mottet NK, Body RL, Vahter ME, Burbacher TM., Department of Pathology, School of Medicine, University of Washington

    The number of neurons, astrocytes, reactive glia, oligodendrocytes, endothelia, and pericytes in the cortex of the calcarine sulcus of adult female Macaca fascicularis following long-term subclinical exposure to methyl mercury (MeHg) and mercuric chloride (inorganic mercury; IHg) has been estimated by use of the optical volume fractionator stereology technique. Four groups of monkeys were exposed to MeHg (50 micrograms Hg/kg body wt/day) by mouth for 6, 12, 18, and 12 months followed by 6 months without exposure (clearance group). A fifth group of monkeys was administered IHg (as HgCl2; 200 micrograms Hg/kg body wt/day) by constant rate intravenous infusion via an indwelling catheter for 3 months. Reactive glia showed a significant increase in number for every treatment group, increasing 72% in the 6-month, 152% in the 12-month, and 120% in the 18-month MeHg exposed groups, and the number of reactive glia in the clearance group remained elevated (89%). The IHg exposed group showed a 165% increase in the number of reactive glia. The IHg exposed group and the clearance group had low levels of MeHg present within the tissue; however, the level of IHg was elevated in both groups. These results suggest that the IHg may be responsible for the increase in reactive glia. All other cell types, including the neurons, showed no significant change in number at the prescribed exposure level and durations. The identities of the reactive glial cells and the implications for the long-term function and survivability of the neurons due to changes in the glial population following subclinical long-term exposure to mercury are discussed.

    7. Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism

    Annals of Neurology, Feb 2005.

    Diana L. Vargas, MD [Johns Hopkins University].

    This study, performed independently and using a different methodology than Dr. Herbert (see above) reached the same conclusion: the brains of autistic children are suffering from inflammation.

    Excerpt: “Because this neuroinflammatory process appears to be associated with an ongoing and chronic mechanism of CNS dysfunction, potential therapeutic interventions should focus on the control of its detrimental effects and thereby eventually modify the clinical course of autism.”

    8. Autism: A Brain Disorder, or A Disorder That Affects the Brain?

    Clinical Neuropsychiatry, 2005

    Martha R. Herbert M.D., Ph.D., Harvard University

    Autism is defined behaviorally, as a syndrome of abnormalities involving language, social reciprocity and hyperfocus or reduced behavioral flexibility. It is clearly heterogeneous, and it can be accompanied by unusual talents as well as by impairments, but its underlying biological and genetic basis in unknown. Autism has been modeled as a brain-based, strongly genetic disorder, but emerging findings and hypotheses support a broader model of the condition as a genetically influenced and systemic. These include imaging, neuropathology and psychological evidence of pervasive (and not just specific) brain and phenotypic features; postnatal evolution and chronic persistence of brain, behavior and tissue changes (e.g. inflammation) and physical illness symptomatology (e.g. gastrointestinal, immune, recurrent infection); overlap with other disorders; and reports of rate increases and improvement or recovery that support a role for modulation of the condition by environmental factors (e.g. exacerbation or triggering by toxins, infectious agents, or others stressors, or improvement by treatment). Modeling autism more broadly encompasses previous work, but also encourages the expansion of research and treatment to include intermediary domains of molecular and cellular mechanisms, as well as chronic tissue, metabolic and somatic changes previously addressed only to a limited degree. The heterogeneous biologies underlying autism may conceivably converge onto the autism profile via multiple mechanisms on the one hand and processing and connectivity abnormalities on the other may illuminate relevant final common pathways and contribute to focusing on the search for treatment targets in this biologically and etiologically heterogeneous behavioral syndrome.

    9. Activation of Methionine Synthase by Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 and Dopamine: a Target for Neurodevelopmental Toxins and Thimerosal

    Molecular Psychiatry, July 2004.

    Richard C. Deth, PhD [Northeastern University].

    This study demonstrates how Thimerosal inhibits methylation, a central driver of cellular communication and development. Excerpt:

    “The potent inhibition of this pathway [methylation] by ethanol, lead, mercury, aluminum, and thimerosal suggests it may be an important target of neurodevelopmental toxins.”

    10. Validation of the Phenomenon of Autistic Regression Using Home Videotapes

    Archives of General Psychiatry, 2005

    Emily Werner, PhD; Geraldine Dawson, PhD, University of Washington

    Objective To validate parental report of autistic regression using behavioral data coded from home videotapes of children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) vs typical development taken at 12 and 24 months of age.

    Design Home videotapes of 56 children’s first and second birthday parties were collected from parents of young children with ASD with and without a reported history of regression and typically developing children. Child behaviors were coded by raters blind to child diagnosis and regression history. A parent interview that elicited information about parents’ recall of early symptoms from birth was also administered.

    Setting Participants were recruited from a multidisciplinary study of autism conducted at a major university.

    Participants Fifteen children with ASD with a history of regression, 21 children with ASD with early-onset autism, and 20 typically developing children and their parents participated.

    Main Outcome Measures Observations of children’s communicative, social, affective, repetitive behaviors, and toy play coded from videotapes of the toddlers’ first and second birthday parties.

    Results Analyses revealed that infants with ASD with regression show similar use of joint attention and more frequent use of words and babble compared with typical infants at 12 months of age. In contrast, infants with ASD with early onset of symptoms and no regression displayed fewer joint attention and communicative behaviors at 12 months of age. By 24 months of age, both groups of toddlers with ASD displayed fewer instances of word use, vocalizations, declarative pointing, social gaze, and orienting to name as compared with typically developing 24-month-olds.

    Parent interview data suggested that some children with regression displayed difficulties in regulatory behavior before the regression occurred.

    Conclusion This study validates the existence of early autistic regression.

    UPDATE: Since the Poling Case, this has become a popular link, so I will update it with more research and better information so that you can actually find and read the articles. Below is a partial list that I will keep adding to.

  231. Anne says:

    11. Blood Levels of Mercury Are Related to Diagnosis of Autism: A Reanalysis of an Important Data Set

    Journal of Child Neurology, Vol. 22, No. 11, 1308-1311 (2007)

    M. Catherine DeSoto, PhD, Robert T. Hitlan, PhD -Department of Psychology, University of Northern Iowa, Cedar Falls, Iowa

    Excerpt: “We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in 2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder. Moreover, the hair sample analysis results offer some support for the idea that persons with autism may be less efficient and more variable at eliminating mercury from the blood.”

    12. Empirical Data Confirm Autism Symptoms Related to Aluminum and Acetaminophen Exposure

    Entropy, November 7, 2012

    Stephanie Seneff, Robert M. Davidson and Jingjing Liu

    Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA, Internal Medicine Group Practice, PhyNet, Inc., Longview, TX 75604, USA

    Abstract: Autism is a condition characterized by impaired cognitive and social skills, associated with compromised immune function. The incidence is alarmingly on the rise, and environmental factors are increasingly suspected to play a role. This paper investigates word frequency patterns in the U.S. CDC Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database. Our results provide strong evidence supporting a link between autism and the aluminum in vaccines. A literature review showing toxicity of aluminum in human physiology offers further support. Mentions of autism in VAERS increased steadily at the end of the last century, during a period when mercury was being phased out, while aluminum adjuvant burden was being increased. Using standard log-likelihood ratio techniques, we identify several signs and symptoms that are significantly more prevalent in vaccine reports after 2000, including cellulitis, seizure, depression, fatigue, pain and death, which are also significantly associated with aluminum-containing vaccines. We propose that children with the autism diagnosis are especially vulnerable to toxic metals such as aluminum and mercury due to insufficient serum sulfate and glutathione. A strong correlation between autism and the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccine is also observed, which may be partially explained via an increased sensitivity to acetaminophen administered to control fever.

    13. Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

    Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006
    Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery
    Johns Hopkins Hospital

    This article showed that 38% of Kennedy Krieger Institute autism patients studied had one marker for impaired oxidative phosphorylation (mitochondrial dysfunction), and 47% had a second marker.

    Excerpt: “Children who have (mitochondrial-related) dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time.”

    14. Oxidative Stress in Autism: Elevated Cerebellar 3-nitrotyrosine Levels

    American Journal of Biochemistry and Biotechnology 4 (2): 73-84, 2008

    Elizabeth M. Sajdel-Sulkowska, – Dept of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School

    Shows a potential link between mercury and the autopsied brains of young people with autism. A marker for oxidative stress was 68.9% higher in autistic brain issue than controls (a statistically significant result), while mercury levels were 68.2% higher.

    Excerpt: The preliminary data suggest a need for more extensive studies of oxidative stress, its relationship to the environmental factors and its possible attenuation by antioxidants in autism.”

    15. Large Brains in Autism: The Challenge of Pervasive Abnormality

    The Neuroscientist, Volume 11, Number 5, 2005.

    Martha Herbert, MD, PhD [Harvard University].

    This study helps refute the notion that the brains of autistic children are simply wired differently and notes, “neuroinflammation appears to be present in autistic brain tissue from childhood through adulthood.” Dr. Herbert suggests that chronic disease or an external environmental source (like heavy metals) may be causing the inflammation.

    Excerpt: “Oxidative stress, brain inflammation, and microgliosis have been much documented in association with toxic exposures including various heavy metals…the awareness that the brain as well as medical conditions of children with autism may be conditioned by chronic biomedical abnormalities such as inflammation opens the possibility that meaningful biomedical interventions may be possible well past the window of maximal neuroplasticity in early childhood because the basis for assuming that all deficits can be attributed to fixed early developmental alterations in neural architecture has now been undermined.”

    16. Evidence of Toxicity, Oxidative Stress, and Neuronal Insult in Autism

    Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Nov-Dec 2006.

    Janet Kern, Anne Jones

    “This article discusses the evidence for the case that some children with autism may become autistic from neuronal cell death or brain damage sometime after birth as result of insult; and addresses the hypotheses that toxicity and oxidative stress may be a cause of neuronal insult in autism… the article discusses what may be happening over the course of development and the multiple factors that may interplay and make these children more vulnerable to toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult.”

    17. Oxidative Stress in Autism

    Pathophysiology, 2006.

    Abha Chauhan, Ved Chauhan

    This study provides a helpful overview of the growing evidence supporting the link between oxidative stress and autism.

    Excerpt: “Upon completion of this article, participants should be able to: 1. Be aware of laboratory and clinical evidence of greater oxidative stress in autism. 2. Understand how gut, brain, nutritional, and toxic status in autism are consistent with greater oxidative stress. 3. Describe how anti-oxidant nutrients are used in the contemporary treatment of autism.”

    18. Thimerosal Neurotoxicity is Associated with Glutathione Depletion: Protection with Glutathione Precursors

    Neurotoxicology, Jan 2005.

    S. Jill James, PhD [University of Arkansas].

    This recent study demonstrates that Thimerosal lowers or inhibits the body’s ability to produce Glutathione, an antioxidant and the body’s primary cellular-level defense against mercury.

    Excerpt: “Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular Glutathione in both cell lines…The potential effect of Glutathione or N-acetylcysteine against mercury toxicity warrants further research as possible adjunct therapy to individuals still receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines.”

  232. Anne says:

    26. Bridging from Cells to Cognition in Autism Pathophysiology: Biological
    Pathways to Defective Brain Function and Plasticity

    American Journal of Biochemistry and Biotechnology 4 (2): 167-176, 2008

    Matthew P. Anderson, Brian S. Hooker and Martha R. Herbert
    Departments of Neurology and Pathology, Harvard Medical School/Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Institutes of Medicine, High Throughput Biology Team, Fundamental Science Directorate, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Pediatric Neurology/Center for Morphometric Analysis, Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School, and
    Center for Child and Adolescent Development, Cambridge Health Alliance/Harvard Medical School

    Abstract: We review evidence to support a model where the disease process underlying autism may begin when an in utero or early postnatal environmental, infectious, seizure, or autoimmune insult triggers an immune response that increases reactive oxygen species (ROS) production in the brain that leads to DNA damage (nuclear and mitochondrial) and metabolic enzyme blockade and that these inflammatory and oxidative stressors persist beyond early development (with potential further exacerbations), producing ongoing functional consequences. In organs with a high metabolic demand such as the central nervous system, the continued use of mitochondria with damaged DNA and impaired metabolic enzyme function may generate additional ROS which will cause persistent activation of the innate immune system leading to more ROS production. Such a mechanism would self-sustain and possibly progressively worsen. The mitochondrial dysfunction and altered redox signal transduction pathways found in autism would conspire to activate both astroglia and microglia. These activated cells can then initiate a broad-spectrum proinflammatory gene response. Beyond the direct effects of ROS on neuronal function, receptors on neurons that bind the inflammatory mediators may serve to inhibit neuronal signaling to protect them from excitotoxic damage during various pathologic insults (e.g., infection). In autism, over-zealous neuroinflammatory responses could not only influence neural developmental processes, but may more significantly impair neural signaling involved in cognition in an ongoing fashion. This model makes specific predictions in patients and experimental animal models and suggests a number of targets sites of intervention. Our model of potentially reversible pathophysiological mechanisms in autism motivates our hope that effective therapies may soon appear on the horizon.

    27. Heavy-Metal Toxicity—With Emphasis on Mercury

    John Neustadt, ND, and Steve Pieczenik, MD, PhD

    Research Review

    Conclusion: Metals are ubiquitous in our environment, and exposure to them is inevitable. However, not all people accumulate toxic levels of metals or exhibit symptoms of metal toxicity, suggesting that genetics play a role in their potential to damage health. Metal toxicity creates multisystem dysfunction, which appears to be mediated primarily through mitochondrial damage from glutathione depletion.
    Accurate screening can increase the likelihood that patients with potential metal toxicity are identified. The most accurate screening method for assessing chronic-metals exposure and metals load in the body is a provoked urine test.

    28. Evidence of Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Autism and Implications for Treatment

    American Journal of Biochemistry and Biotechnology 4 (2): 208-217, 2008

    Daniel A. Rossignol, J. Jeffrey Bradstreet, International Child Development Resource Center,

    Abstract: Classical mitochondrial diseases occur in a subset of individuals with autism and are usually caused by genetic anomalies or mitochondrial respiratory pathway deficits. However, in many cases of autism, there is evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction (MtD) without the classic features associated with mitochondrial disease. MtD appears to be more common in autism and presents with less severe signs and symptoms. It is not associated with discernable mitochondrial pathology in muscle biopsy specimens despite objective evidence of lowered mitochondrial functioning. Exposure to environmental toxins is the likely etiology for MtD in autism. This dysfunction then contributes to a number of diagnostic symptoms and comorbidities observed in autism including: cognitive impairment, language deficits, abnormal energy metabolism, chronic gastrointestinal problems, abnormalities in fatty acid oxidation, and increased oxidative stress. MtD and oxidative stress may also explain the high male to female ratio found in autism due to increased male vulnerability to these dysfunctions.

    Biomarkers for mitochondrial dysfunction have been identified, but seem widely under-utilized despite available therapeutic interventions. Nutritional supplementation to decrease oxidative stress along with factors to improve reduced glutathione, as well as hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) represent supported and rationale approaches. The underlying pathophysiology and autistic symptoms of affected individuals would be expected to either improve or cease worsening once effective treatment for MtD is implemented.

  233. Anne says:

    Looks like a number of my posts are being held in moderation. I guess I won’t post any more, which is a shame as I have plenty more to post.

  234. jgc56 says:

    Anne, I’m curious: how do the multiple abstracts you’ve spammed this thread with address the question of whether or not a parent should bring their three-week-old to a family reuinion where she will be in contact with family members who are not up to date with respect to the CDC’s reccomended vaccination schedule?

  235. jgc56 says:

    On the other hand, if you were attempting to provide carrie the means to respond to my questions, surely you’re aware that none of these abstracts constitues evidence routine childhood vaccination does not reduce a child’s risk of contracting an infectious disease, or that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against, or that exposure to thimerosal, or aluminum, or squalene, or formaldehyde, of any other ingredient found in vaccine formulations is harmful at levels of exposure achievable by vaccination, or that routine childhood vaccination is causally asociated with the development of autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, diabetes, food allergies, etc.

  236. jgc56 says:

    Maybe next time, to save time and bandwidth, you could just link to the website you cribbed the list from?

    Oh, but that would mean linking to’s list of “68 Studies Supporting Vaccine/Autism Causation”, wouldn’t it, and Scopie’s Law would immediately come into play: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.”

  237. Lawrence says:

    Wonderful, let’s talk about psychic dolphins and reptilian overlords next….

  238. Anne says:

    This information was not taken from, this is the first I have ever heard of whale. It’s truly amazing how much you assume or accuse, or possibly you intentionally steer people in the wrong direction to try and discredit those who disagree with you. It’s not very honest.

  239. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne, it was a perfect, letter-by-letter copy. I looked up the titles of the first two papers on Google, was one of the sites found. There was also a .doc file found on, which probably got its information from as well.

  240. Lawrence says:

    The Reptillian Overlords will be unhappy…

  241. Anne says:

    Gray Falcon, that proves nothing. I imagine whales found the information the same place I did. So before you call me a liar, you better know what you are talking about.

  242. Gray Falcon says:

    I know what I’m talking about. I simply need to know your source, when it was created, and when created their page. If is older, then it was the ultimate source for your information.

    As it stands, you’re looking like someone holding several people’s wallets and insisting you aren’t a pickpocket.

  243. Anne says:

    And you look like an idiot for your accusations.

    Every one of those studies have references and I don’t see whales name on any of them. If you can convince me that whales did all of the studies, please do so. And please provide the whale link proving they are responsible.

  244. Gray Falcon says:

    @Gray Falcon

    Please take it easy on Anne, she doesn’t know any better.

  245. Gray Falcon says:

    The list itself is from They basically took a list of studies mentioning either autism, vaccination, or mercury poisoning, but not a single one connecting any of the concepts. Several others are from journals that are not peer-viewed.

    Oh, and here’s the site you’re looking for:

  246. Anne says:

    Huh? Are you playing mind games now Gray Falcon? You should seek some help.

  247. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne, take a look at the image above the screen name. That’s the proof that the other “Gray Falcon” wasn’t me, but a someone else using my screen name, for some unknown purpose.

  248. Anne says:

    Again, your link proves nothing, it’s obvious that whale copied and pasted the links just like I did. So what. The studies don’t connect the concepts? You do need help.

  249. Anne says:

    Thanks for providing the link that proves this is not a whales generated list. No apology accepted. I refute your refuting… not impressed, anybody can tear apart any study.

  250. Gray Falcon says:

    So tell me, Anne, why aren’t you telling me where you got your studies? You have the means to exonerate yourself, why aren’t you doing it?

    Also, read Liz Ditz’s blog, the one I linked to in a previous comment. You’ll find your studies aren’t as meaningful as you believe.

  251. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne: “not impressed, anybody can tear apart any study.” In other words, she’s right, and you know it, and you are attempting to use arrogance as a substitute for evidence. If you had the means to refute her comment, you would have done so.

    And I make no apologies, I honestly did not know that lifted their list from elsewhere. Nonetheless, the list of studies still fails to prove anything. I’ve already provided the counter-evidence, and you have done nothing to refute that. Try robbing a bank and telling the prosecutor “not impressed”, see where that gets you.

  252. Anne says:

    Agreed, you are not honest and have no integrity, your arrogance and refusal to apologize proves it. I have no use for people like you. Thanks for showing your true colors.

  253. Anne says:

    Trying telling the prosecutor you “honestly” didn’t know it was a crime to rob a bank so therefore you did nothing wrong.

  254. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne, tell me where I was dishonest. Accusing you of lifting your source from was not dishonest, that was mistaken. An error is not a deliberate crime.

    Now tell me, what do you have to say about Liz Ditz’s refutation of your list of sources.

  255. Anne says:

    That wasn’t a mistake as you had no grounds to accuse such an accusation without trying to check the facts. If you had, I would say it was an honest mistake, but guess what, you just completely made it up without any idea, even after I told you more than once that I didn’t get the list from whale and in fact had never even heard of the site before.

  256. Gray Falcon says:

    Then why didn’t you tell me where you got the list?

  257. Gray Falcon says:

    Sorry about all of this Anne.

  258. Anne says:

    Because I didn’t tell you where I got the list you had a right to act like a Jack a–? Try telling that one to the judge. You are responsible for your own actions, The sooner you learn that the better off you will be.

  259. Anne says:

    Gray Falcon 2? Why are you apologizing?

  260. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne, why didn’t you tell me where you got the list?

  261. Anne says:

    Because I couldn’t remember, I have had that list for a long time. I do know I didn’t get it from Whales as I have never heard of that site. You should get some help for your denial and learn to take responsibility for your actions. You’re still playing the victim and coming up with excuses to act like a Jack a–.

  262. Gray Falcon says:

    Anne, if you don’t remember, how can you be certain you didn’t get it from

    Also, you still haven’t address the numerous problems Liz Ditz found with this list. She provides multiple links for each paper refuting their claims. Why haven’t you addressed this?

  263. Gray Falcon says:

    Oh, and looking at Liz’s blog, the list of papers are in a different order, while has them in the same order as you posted them.

  264. Gray Falcon says:

    Correction: It appears that Ginger Taylor really is the author of the list. Sorry about that. Unfortunately, that is not a big gain on Anne’s part. The fact that the list appeared on does not help its credibility. Finally, here’s the full debunking of that list in pdf format, and it’s quite thorough:

    Ginger Taylor, by the way, is a paid spokesperson of a group called the “Canary Party,” tax records strongly suggest she was paid over $40,000 for her work:

  265. Tim says:

    Thanks, Carrie and Anne, for the useful information!

  266. Tim says:

    Wasn’t Carrie challenged to provide studies supporting her statement that vaccines are dangerous? Didn’t Anne step in to help her do so? Shouldn’t you tell those who challenged them that they were off-topic in their challenge?

  267. Gray Falcon says:

    Tim, are trying to ignore the fact that we refuted her list of studies?

  268. jgc56 says:

    but Anne failed to help Carrie support her claims vaccines are dangerous, Tim. That probably was her intent, but the papers on her list don’t support that claim (i.e., they don’t demonstrating that vaccines are causlally associated with autism spectrum disorders, or that exposure to ingredients in vaccine formulations cause hare at levels of exposure achievable by routine immunization, or (and most critically) that the risks associated with vaccination are greater than the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against.

    See the link Gray Falcon (the original Gray falcon)provided to Liz Ditz’s comprehensive explanation why these citations fail to support anti-vax claims.

  269. Gray Falcon says:

    Worth noting that even though we bunged it up at first, we still did more research into the source of the list that Anne did.

    Also, if Anne had no idea who is, then why was she so upset that we accused her of using it as a source?

  270. jgc56 says:

    And hopefully Anne has will have noticed that my first two responses spoke directly to the content of her posts by pointing out that they didn’t speak to carrie’s claims regarding the presumed dangers of vaccination, and it was in a third response I addressed their apparent provenance.

    I still think it would have served better to ahve provided a a link to the list rather than try to copy/paste 68 abstracts in seections across multiple posts to this thread.

  271. Gray Falcon says:

    I think Anne’s explanation was that she had the list for a long time, and forgot where she got it from. In other words, she didn’t have a link. That’s more than a little sloppy.

  272. jgc56 says:

    Perhaps, but in such a case I would have performed a quick google search to find it online and posted the link before I’d have attempted cutting and pasting 68 abstracts to the thread.

    And when I found one of the links went to, I’d have looked long and hard at what the papers actually presented and what claims they could reasonably support before continuing further–in fact, I’d like to think I would not.

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